Cicli Vecchi, Roma, Italia

[Freqman1]

While doing some research on other Campy stuff I ran across this timeline referencing
the Cambio Corsa system. I am not sure if the 1934 entry referring to the advert means that it was published in 1934 also.

"1933
After fabricating parts in the backroom of his father's hardware store (Corsa Padova 101, Vincenza), Tullio starts Campagnolo, S.r.l. with the production of the quick release hub. The sliding hub, dual seatstay rod operated, back pedal derailleur (cambio prototype) is patented on May 4th and introduced in August. The pieces of the prototype derailleur are all handmade requiring a massive investment of time and labor. Fratelli Brivio of Brescia (F.B.) becomes the subcontractor for the parts and supplier of the three-piece (steel barrel with aluminum flanges) hubs. Later, the official corporate name becomes Campagnolo Brevetti Internazionali SpA (translation: Campagnolo International Patents Incorporated).

1934
Cambio a bacchetta (translation: rod changer) or Cambio "CAMPAGNOLO" is the name used for sliding hub, dual seatstay rod operated, back pedal derailleur. The slogan becomes "Senza attriti e senza rumore" (i.e., Friction-free and noise-free). The first advertisement for the Cambio "CAMPAGNOLO" appears in Gazzetta dello Sport."

credit: velo-retro; Chuck Schmidt

I saw that before as well but wonder if he ever got past a few prototypes in the prewar period because I can't say I have ever seen a bona fide prewar cambio drivetrain. V/r Shawn

 

[dnc1]

@dnc1 , glad you were able to get out and give it a good ride. Was the gearing fairly reasonable? It looks like a 46t-48t front; I didn't really look at the rear sizes. I did notice that the freewheel teeth appeared rather "worn" on the 2 smaller cogs. Do you know if that is a designed tooth specifically for these shifting systems, or is it just decades of wear from use? I was wondering before your ride post if that might have affected gear shifting above and beyond the shifting system itself.

While perusing European sales sites I stumbled across an old "Cambio Corsa" frame set for $125 USD (decals were gone so unidentified brand). All I would need to do is spend about $800-$1000 to build it up with the shifting system (I saw the spoke guard on sale recently for $175); that wouldn't even include the wheels or brakes!

I think the cassette is just worn from overuse on the two smaller cogs.
For the record, it's a 50 tooth chainring with a 17/19/21 tooth cluster.
That gives gear ratios of 77.78/69.58/62.97 inches respectively on 700x25c tyres.
I'll look out for a period 3-speed replacement cluster at some point I think.

I saw that before as well but wonder if he ever got past a few prototypes in the prewar period because I can't say I have ever seen a bona fide prewar cambio drivetrain. V/r Shawn

I agree, I don't think that many were manufactured before WW2.
In a recent series of booklets published in the 'Quaderni Eroici' series there is one pre-war example featured.
In the edition featuring the work of Licinio Marastoni there is a 1938 example badged as a 'Sprinter' bicycle.
There is also a late 1940's example by Francesco Galmozzi, badged as a 'Lazzaretti' which also features internal cable routing for the rear brake as my 'Vecchi' does.
There are several Antonio Alpi built examples from the late 1940’s that are variously badged as 'Alpi', 'Galloni' and 'Resta'
I imagine that every reputable framebuilder (of which there were very many) had such a frame in his range of products for a short period, perhaps from 1938 to 1951 with obviously a gap in production (probably) from 1939 to 1945.

 

[dnc1]

I've just been looking at Campagnolo catalogues from 1953 (Catalogue #12) and 1955 (#13) and both catalogues are still offering the 'Cambio Corsa' alongside the 'Paris-Roubaix' single lever rod system and the 'Gran Sport' conventional rear derailleur; so I think that the date range should probably be 1938 to perhaps 1955 or slightly later?

 

[Freqman1]

I've just been looking at Campagnolo catalogues from 1953 (Catalogue #12) and 1955 (#13) and both catalogues are still offering the 'Cambio Corsa' alongside the 'Paris-Roubaix' single lever rod system and the 'Gran Sport' conventional rear derailleur; so I think that the date range should probably be 1938 to perhaps 1955 or slightly later?

I'm guessing there was very little demand for these past about '50 when there were better options not only from Campagnolo but may others as well. Surprisingly I see more than a few framesets on eBay set up for these drivetrains. Building one out gets expensive which is why I only buy complete bikes. V/r Shawn

 

[Jesper]

Aside from decrying the performance aspects of the Cambio Corsa system; I am at present pursuing the purchase of a complete bike with that system and complete 40s Campy front hub and Universal brakes. Cost at this time is €550 after discussions with seller; but the seller says Italian post can't ship due to box size. It is up to me to figure out how to ship; Fedex wants $2000 (insane!). Any ideas?

 

[Freqman1]

Aside from decrying the performance aspects of the Cambio Corsa system; I am at present pursuing the purchase of a complete bike with that system and complete 40s Campy front hub and Universal brakes. Cost at this time is €550 after discussions with seller; but the seller says Italian post can't ship due to box size. It is up to me to figure out how to ship; Fedex wants $2000 (insane!). Any ideas?

I just had one shipped by Italian Post and USPS delivered to me. Although I only paid $139 shipping I’m not sure what the actual cost was but I can assure you it was no where close to $2k! I’ve had two other bikes shipped from Italy and the cost may have been a couple hundred tops. Just curious is this Dario? V/r Shawn

 

[dnc1]

My example was shipped by the Italian national postal service, 'Poste Italiano', then delivered by our national postal service, 'Royal Mail'.
The bike shop in Bologna had no issues and it cost around €200 on top of the price of the bicycle.
I realise it may be different shipping it to the UK ( as in my case) or shipping it to the US (as you will be); although now (post 'Brexit') the UK is considered to be outside of Europe for shipping purposes, ie. we're grouped in with 'the rest of the world'.
Sometimes box size can be an issue re. shipping by air, I wonder if you can get it packaged slightly smaller?

 

[Jesper]

Box size as given by seller is 149cm x 80cm x 21cm. I saw the bike in the box, but I don't know exactly how far it was dismantled in the photo. I think aside from the wheels, the handlebar was removed; not sure if that included the stem or not. If the cranks (drive side anyways, and saddle/post were removed it shouldn't be that large aside from box width. I will ask how much has been broken down. It should not be a problem to remove the fork also, but I am not sure if I am just dealing with a bike owner trying to sell, or a bike owner with knowledge and tools regarding full disassembly of a bike. I also need to know what the Italian post's max. box size is. I would have no problem paying 200 euro given the total cost would still be under $1000, and the seller has been super nice in offering to ship as well as taking it apart and boxing it to the extent that he has. I do have a couple of friends over there whom I get parts and frames from (just had 2 frame sets sent for $60 total) so I'll inquire how they ship, and ask how far they are from the bike's location since I know they would get it for me if not too much trouble; and I'd pay them something for their time and effort to boot. I'd be happy with about 800 euros ($900) total cost for me; but up to a 875 euros ($1000) would still be okay. I know I would be paying $800-$1000 in parts alone in the US aside from a $300-$400 frame; but I have a budget too.
It's funny because I was trying to buy a set of early 1950s Universal calipers for 15 euro which an Italian guy said he had no problem shipping (drop them in a padded envelope) to the US (not an ebay sale), but after a month of back and forth, and me telling him I would pay up to 20 euros for shipping (I regularly get same type stuff from Italy for 15 euros or less; and I saw calipers on ebay this month shipping from Italy for 10 euros). He said he would check the cost, but only came back with how it has cost him 30 euros to ship to like items to Germany; but not what the actual cost would be for the US. The item has been on sale for a couple months so not sure why it is a problem to get an actual cost. I think he was trying to take me for a ride on shipping so I dropped that issue even though I knew he could make more money shipping for 20 euros per my recent experience.

 

[Jesper]

I just had one shipped by Italian Post and USPS delivered to me. Although I only paid $139 shipping I’m not sure what the actual cost was but I can assure you it was no where close to $2k! I’ve had two other bikes shipped from Italy and the cost may have been a couple hundred tops. Just curious is this Dario? V/r Shawn

I am not Dario; and Dario is not the seller either. I am a veteran though, and now working for the VA (hospital); thanks for your service! Jesper is my middle name.

 

[dnc1]

Box size as given by seller is 149cm x 80cm x 21cm. I saw the bike in the box, but I don't know exactly how far it was dismantled in the photo. I think aside from the wheels, the handlebar was removed; not sure if that included the stem or not. If the cranks (drive side anyways, and saddle/post were removed it shouldn't be that large aside from box width. I will ask how much has been broken down. It should not be a problem to remove the fork also, but I am not sure if I am just dealing with a bike owner trying to sell, or a bike owner with knowledge and tools regarding full disassembly of a bike. I also need to know what the Italian post's max. box size is. I would have no problem paying 200 euro given the total cost would still be under $1000, and the seller has been super nice in offering to ship as well as taking it apart and boxing it to the extent that he has. I do have a couple of friends over there whom I get parts and frames from (just had 2 frame sets sent for $60 total) so I'll inquire how they ship, and ask how far they are from the bike's location since I know they would get it for me if not too much trouble; and I'd pay them something for their time and effort to boot. I'd be happy with about 800 euros ($900) total cost for me; but up to a 875 euros ($1000) would still be okay. I know I would be paying $800-$1000 in parts alone in the US aside from a $300-$400 frame; but I have a budget too.
It's funny because I was trying to buy a set of early 1950s Universal calipers for 15 euro which an Italian guy said he had no problem shipping (drop them in a padded envelope) to the US (not an ebay sale), but after a month of back and forth, and me telling him I would pay up to 20 euros for shipping (I regularly get same type stuff from Italy for 15 euros or less; and I saw calipers on ebay this month shipping from Italy for 10 euros). He said he would check the cost, but only came back with how it has cost him 30 euros to ship to like items to Germany; but not what the actual cost would be for the US. The item has been on sale for a couple months so not sure why it is a problem to get an actual cost. I think he was trying to take me for a ride on shipping so I dropped that issue even though I knew he could make more money shipping for 20 euros per my recent experience.

I can't help re. the maximum box size that they allow, but I know it can be a problem from past experience.
My example had the wheels, bar/stem/levers combo and saddle/stem removed from the frame and was fitted into a standard cardboard bike box that you get from a retailer.
The chainset was still fitted and there were no pedals so that wasn't an issue.
These boxes do come in at least 3 sizes though as you are probably aware, although the dimensions you've quoted seem pretty regular.
I would suggest that you seek your friends' help and hopefully they could sort it out for you; an inexperienced seller can be problematic in these situations.

As to your other point, the feeling that the seller is making a profit on the shipping is becoming far more common. Not always just the seller though, it also is becoming increasingly obvious that the shipping costs automatically generated on Ebay are, frankly ridiculous!
I buy stuff from France regularly and I question every shipping quote that they give me and often end up paying around 25% of the originally quoted costs.