~ ~ ~ 1943 Huffman/Dayton Military Bike Found! ~ ~ ~

[Mercian]

Hi Rustjunkie,

thanks for starting the search. I would have done, but I'm quite a few hours ahead of you, so our last convo was at Midnight for me, and I was turning into a pumpkin. (-:

I've seen the signal corps photo before, but confess to never having looked at the saddle. So, it knocks one theory out, unless it's the same bike (highly unlikely) the one in the manual is not a 'one off'. So, I'm persuaded that the Mesinger saddle was fitted to Huffmans at least some of the time. Which is great, we are learning new stuff. (-:

The modern photo's are less convincing (though not to be ignored), since the saddle had 70 years to be swapped by that point. It is interesting that both bikes are early curved downtube versions. Nate's is a very late straight tube one. If we can find a straight tube original photo with the mesinger saddle (difficult, given the dearth of original pics of bikes in general, and then having the right angle to see the saddle and chainring) I will be more convinced it happened throughout production. But I'm getting there, especially with Nate's saddle remains. Of course, this could have come from an earlier Huffman, or an entirely other bike, (I don't know how common this type of saddle is), but it seems appropriate at least for an 'as used' bike, and may be appropriate for an 'as made' bike.

Nate, is there any sign of green paint on the saddle frame? Rustjunkie, do you know if these saddle frames were originally chrome? If yes, and this one is not chromed, it indicates war period, either Military or Blackout.

If anyone has original pics of Huffmans or Westfields with either saddle they'd like to add, please do so.

The Huffman image comes from (at least) ORD 7-8 SNL G-519 of July 1949 (though I'm sure there were earlier ones)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Hobbies/MILITARY-BICYCLE-MANUALS/i-9gSW7Sj/0/XL/ORD 7-8 SNL G-519-XL.jpg

(Image from Handcartz).

I don't have an original (pity), but reprints of them can be bought here... http://www.robvanmeel.nl/?q=content...-ord-7-8-snl-g519-1943-1949-poor-quality-55-p

Nate, the manuals are useful (despite the comment 'poor quality', since they go into detail on parts (though, apparently, for Westfield more than Huffman).

Also, the SN picture above illustrates the yellow/green primer used on Huffmans.

Have a Good Weekend,

Adrian

If it is still of interest, I will scan the page early next week.

 

[rustjunkie]

The modern photo's are less convincing (though not to be ignored), since the saddle had 70 years to be swapped by that point.

Nate, is there any sign of green paint on the saddle frame? Rustjunkie, do you know if these saddle frames were originally chrome? If yes, and this one is not chromed, it indicates war period, either Military or Blackout.

Thanks, Adrian, the recent picture is of a bike that belongs to @Craig Johnson. To me the bike and saddle look orig. The leather looks like russet and the chassis is OD. We can't see if it has the tool bag loops though.

I've not seen Mesingers of this type with chrome chassis, but chrome plated springs were available. All the chassis I've seen were originally painted black or OD.

There are 2 OD Mesingers saddles here, both have tool bag loops (not common for this saddle from what I've seen), threaded rear spring rods, and are painted yellow (zinc chromate?) primer over bare metal, then OD on top. Note: one saddle shown in the pictures has a later light black spray paint to part of it. The wear tabs are present on this one and are painted OD.

Here's another Huffman wartime bike that was found with a Mesinger of this type on it:

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=239326&start=45#p1402344


This bike and saddle appear to be a repaint with distressing on the saddle chassis. I can't say for certain but it looks that way to me.

 

[Mercian]

Hi Rustjunkie,

Thanks for the detailed photos and analysis.

Yes, I'm convinced that these saddles were issued for Huffmans, and although I've still not seen enough to be sure they all had them, I think there's enough evidence to say they are appropriate for a Huffman restoration.

I'm away from my references until next week, but I'll have a look through the known survivors to see if there;s any more evidence one way or another.

Best Regards,

Adrian

 

[johan willaert]

I disagree on the seat post not being original...

In my findings Columbia seat posts were solid steel and same diameter overall...

Huffman seat posts were tapered tubes, some even slightly curved


http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1942-g519-huffman-bike-project.43231/

 

[Mercian]

Hi Johan,

as you can see from my posts on the saddle above, I had assumed that all the parts listed in the parts book were correct for both makes, it becoming apparent to me later that the listing is for Columbia parts, and so not necessarily correct for functionally identical parts from other suppliers used on the Huffman.

My mistake, which I should have guessed from my previous experience of the different suppliers of functionally identical parts for Ford and Willys jeeps.

Is there a listing anywhere of known differences?

The frames, certainly.
The mudguards
The saddles
The saddle stems
I read on G503 that the stand can be different, could anyone confirm this?
Anything else?

Thanks,

Best Regards,

Adrian

 

[HUFFMANBILL]

Hello everyone,
Nice find.
First off. The seat post that came with this bike appears to be correct for the Military Huffman. It should be a hollow tube that narrows at the top as the one in question. I have two Huffmans , one of which I know the history from its use in Egypt during WWII until the present, and both use the same seat post as this one. The straight solid post referred to above by Mercian was used on Columbia Military models and was also smaller in circumference then the Huffman post. Also, the rims on the Huffman in question ( I call them drop side rims) were in fact used on some Military Huffman's. Again, my Huffman used in Egypt has those types of rims and a picture of my Huffman taken in Egypt during late WWII shows these type drop end rims. Of course my rims contain 10 gauge WWII spokes. The mesinger sliding rail seat was used on some very early 1942 Huffmans and an occasional latter dated Huffman. Those Mesinger seats came with built in tool bag hanger tabs on the lower seat pan and the one above does not appear to have them and since the Huffman is late 1943 it most likely came with a Persons Military seat.

Regards,
Bill

 

[rustjunkie]

howdy @HUFFMANBILL this bike also shown above is a 1943 from what I gather, and was found with a Mesinger:

 

[HUFFMANBILL]

Like I stated later Huffman's have on occasion shown up with the Mesinger seat. I am familiar with this particular bike.

 

[Krakatoa]

Little by little....

Think I may have found a source for some correct rims....

Rustjunkie has his beautiful (gulp) saddle I'm going to try and get when I can afford it.

Getting this guard from New Mexico Brant~ Thanks so much!

So I'm still on the hunt for a correct date coded Morrow monster spoke rear cb and Eclipse front hubs!

Then the real fun can begin.....

 

[johan willaert]

FWIW My 1942 Huffman D50546 in original condition was found with a Persons saddle... See attached picture...

Craig Johnson's D51646 ( bike shown above) is slightly higher numbered and came with a Messinger...

So clearly both types were used...