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Hey literature collectors- 1981-83 question...

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The Ishiwata forks on my '70s bikes all have the 1970s Ishiwata logo (concentric circles with IS, as seen above the date stamp) to indicate the mfr. and the date code is in YM format. Here is a '74 Ishiwata catalog page showing the logo:

1714760238_f4bd3bcec3.jpg


I remain convinced that your frame and fork date from Feb. 1983.
 
Metacortex,
Compare the logo below for what is on your bikes. Most of what it is is not clear, on the photo above. The JIS logo is common on many Japanese items to define a government imposed standard. It can be used by any Japanese manufacturer equally.
The logo that is stamped into the steerer tube of my bike is the Japan Industrial Standard, not Ishiwata`s logo and used in that form until 2008 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Industrial_Standards
The logo on the 1974 catologue is the Ishiwata logo as it also appears on the pre (not confirmed) 1980 Ishiwata catalogue on the MTB tubing page
I have had a looked back at a lot of information about Japanese made Schwinn serial numbers (even T-Mar`s listing) and mSnnnnn is not mentioned but it does define February 1981 in the US made bikes. Of all the numbers used for Japanese production S is only used at the beginning for some manufacturers, not all and generally followed by numbers. If a second letter is there it is for the month, difficult to get beyond M for 12 months and why B at the beginning. S should be first to be accepted as Japanese made. If the first letter was S, the second B followed by a 3nnnn, yes it would be Japan made in February 1983 but it is not that stamped into the frame.
I will just keep looking, if I dont, I will not know.
Les

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The Ishiwata-built Schwinn forks I've seen only have the earlier ('70s style) Ishiwata logo and no JIS stamp. You appear to be confusing Asian serial numbers with Chicago Schwinn numbers. Your frame serial no. format is MSyxxxxx, which according to the Asian Serial Number Guide was used by several Japanese and other manufacturers and indicates Feb. '83 production. I also checked the '82 and '83 parts catalogs and your frame only appears in the '83 catalog. At this point there is no doubt in my mind your frame and fork date from Feb. '83.
 
Last edited:
Hi again
I have had a look at the Asian guide where there is a group under S.
S(1) (Japan:( MSyxxxxx
S(2) (Japan:( SyFxxxx
S(3) (Japan:( sMyxxxxx
The only one that could apply is S(1) I agree it could apply, this guide gives no reference to which Japanese manufacturers used that system and which US clients where involved, These 3 applications are a cover all approach. It would help if these were made clear. Schwinn Le Tour and Super Le Tour models sometimes began with an 'S' followed by the Japan Made numbering system, is clear as you have shown but does not say the S was not or could be in the second place.
Secondly this S(1) is confusing with the Schwinn number system for the US made in 1981 mSnnnnn where the first number could indicate a year. Do all Schwinn bikes made in 1981 with SN mSnnnn get refered to as Japanese made and when the first number is greater than 1 are the dated as 1982 and beyond.
The other frames the same as mine that I have the numbers of, by using the S(1) application means that these frames where made until 1984 having SN BS367823 3.B Ishiwata, BS367845, CS472494, KS314155, CS476244.
The two with CS4 to me indicates March, does the 4 also indicate 1984. This is well after the 1983 selling of the frames.
I am not confusing Asian serial numbers with Chicago Schwinn numbers simply the Asian serial numbers are confusing and are guide only.
I have seen reference to a Schwinn number GSnnnn where it is said to be a Giant made frame. Schwinn/Giant made frames where Gnnnn only configuration, no other letters appeared. No photo of the frame was included so I will not say I am correct but the Giant explanation is also equally correct.
As I have said before I am not convinced to being correct but I am convinced the date of 1983 is not proven,
Les
 
...The only one that could apply is S(1) I agree it could apply, this guide gives no reference to which Japanese manufacturers used that system and which US clients where involved,
Please look at the guide more carefully and you'll see these entries which conform to the MSyxxxxx aka S(1) format :

SHOGUN (Japan:( See Mikki, S(1), S(2), N(1), Yamaguchi.
SPECIALIZED (USA:( See Giant, Miyata, S(1)
TAKARA (USA:( See Fuji, Kuwahara, S(1), Y(1).
BIANCHI (Italy:( See Hodaka, S(1)
MIELE (Canada:( See S(1)

While your frame was stamped in Feb. 1983, based on the numbers I've seen these frames were also made in 1984,
 
Mtacortex
Sorry to bare bad news, I have checked the references and,
SHOGUN (USA?:( See Mikki, S(1), S(2), N(1), Yamaguchi.
MIKI (Japan): MyFxxxx NOT AS S(1) or (S2)
YAMAGUCHI (Japan:( YyFxxxx. There has been some speculation whether Yamaguchi is the manufacturer for this format but samples have been reported with Yamaguchi labels. NOT AS S(1)

SPECIALIZED
Giant 1978-1986: Gyymm on rear dropout. NOT AS S(1)
1987-1989: GFyxxxxx NOT AS S(1)

TAKARA (USA:( See Fuji, Kuwahara, S(1), Y(1). = AS S(1) SAME AS THE SCHWINN I OWN, I THINK THAT TAKARA FRAME COULD HAVE COME FROM SCHWINN IN 1983
When I saw a Takara MTB of 1983 I did some searching and even emailed Kuwahara and got this reply.
Dear Les
Thank you contact to us and visiting to our web site.
At first yes before we produced Schwin bike for OEM business late 70's (not early 80's).
Then your bike serial number 1981 that is not our production actually very sorry we can
not give you any information such bike.


Best Regards,
Takashi Kuwahara
************************************************************************
Director
KUWAHARA INTERNATIONAL CO.,LTD


His only suggestion was Bridgestone as the builder simlpy because of the BS. Not Bridgestone NOT KUWAHARA BUILT

FUJI (Japan:( P designates assumed production facility codes with known characters including F.G. I,J, K and M
http://www.classicfuji.com/0_Serial_Number_TableAA.htm The first 3 letters required of which non are included with the B and S for the first 2, the third is not a letter NOT AS S(1)

KUWAHARA (Japan:( yy mm xxxx(x) year could be a B but the month cannot be an S NOT AS S(1) or S(

BIANCHI (Italy:( See Hodaka, S(1) = HODAKA (Taiwan:( HyMxxxxx NOT AS S(1)


MIELE (Canada:( See S(1). The only Miele SN I found is one "bottom of the seat tube with P3361549" comments suggest it may not be the SN If it it is it is NOT AS S(1)
www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1058003-miele-road-bicycle-information.html



From all of this you can see why I am skeptical about the Asian Guide
THE OTHER WAY FOR THAT NUMBER TO BE ON THE FRAMES IS THAT IT WAS ADDED BY SCHWINN IN THE USA
Les
 
Bridgestone or Fuji has always been my guess. The drops on the BMX style forks is identical to the drops on Fuji MTB's and cruisers, and the frame looks a hullva lot like early MB-1 Brigstones.
 
Hi,David here
I have a Bianchi with Ishiwata fork that has 4E on it and BS583673 (maybe this helps give you some certainty Les for your search) on the seat tube of the bike placing it as a February 85 and it would seem with the fork being produced the year prior. Anyone know of some Bianchi catalogues from that year to look through so i can determine the model?
Thanks
 
What is your question? I have sales rep catalogs for all those years. Just need to know what to look for and maybe a year.
Hello new to the forum here. I have gathered information about the mystery Schwinn Mountain Bike frame that predates the Schwinn High Sierra MTB of 1984. Several people have gathered most of this information and hopefully, I can get all closer to answering the questions. First, I reply to ABC services since he has the sale catalogs. What would be of geat usefulness from the 1982 catalog is to locate if frame no. 29 265 was offered that year along with the BMX type fork (part no. unknown). Also, if these were offered in 1984 as well (fork no. 54 186)
 
Mtacortex
Sorry to bare bad news, I have checked the references and,
SHOGUN (USA?:( See Mikki, S(1), S(2), N(1), Yamaguchi.
MIKI (Japan): MyFxxxx NOT AS S(1) or (S2)
YAMAGUCHI (Japan:( YyFxxxx. There has been some speculation whether Yamaguchi is the manufacturer for this format but samples have been reported with Yamaguchi labels. NOT AS S(1)

SPECIALIZED
Giant 1978-1986: Gyymm on rear dropout. NOT AS S(1)
1987-1989: GFyxxxxx NOT AS S(1)

TAKARA (USA:( See Fuji, Kuwahara, S(1), Y(1). = AS S(1) SAME AS THE SCHWINN I OWN, I THINK THAT TAKARA FRAME COULD HAVE COME FROM SCHWINN IN 1983
When I saw a Takara MTB of 1983 I did some searching and even emailed Kuwahara and got this reply.
Dear Les
Thank you contact to us and visiting to our web site.
At first yes before we produced Schwin bike for OEM business late 70's (not early 80's).
Then your bike serial number 1981 that is not our production actually very sorry we can
not give you any information such bike.


Best Regards,
Takashi Kuwahara
************************************************************************
Director
KUWAHARA INTERNATIONAL CO.,LTD


His only suggestion was Bridgestone as the builder simlpy because of the BS. Not Bridgestone NOT KUWAHARA BUILT

FUJI (Japan:( P designates assumed production facility codes with known characters including F.G. I,J, K and M
http://www.classicfuji.com/0_Serial_Number_TableAA.htm The first 3 letters required of which non are included with the B and S for the first 2, the third is not a letter NOT AS S(1)

KUWAHARA (Japan:( yy mm xxxx(x) year could be a B but the month cannot be an S NOT AS S(1) or S(

BIANCHI (Italy:( See Hodaka, S(1) = HODAKA (Taiwan:( HyMxxxxx NOT AS S(1)


MIELE (Canada:( See S(1). The only Miele SN I found is one "bottom of the seat tube with P3361549" comments suggest it may not be the SN If it it is it is NOT AS S(1)
www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1058003-miele-road-bicycle-information.html



From all of this you can see why I am skeptical about the Asian Guide
THE OTHER WAY FOR THAT NUMBER TO BE ON THE FRAMES IS THAT IT WAS ADDED BY SCHWINN IN THE USA
Les
Respectfully Les, S(1) which may represent Japan or Import item from Japan, is found on some but not all Specialized, 84 to 86 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport model only on the MTB line used this format as well as Bianchi Grizzly from 1984, I imagine others as well. I do believe this format is the one used in these Japanese frames. Simply the frame is stamped by the manufactures (not Schwinn USA in this case) therefore Schwinn serial number should not apply (the similarity with close dating system used by Schwinn brings a lot of confusion). But catalog offering should be the stronger source of documentation.
 
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