cyclingday
I'm the Wiz, and nobody beats me!
Same here.
Those are Schwinn Racing Sleeves.
Foxgrip reproduced those.
Those are Schwinn Racing Sleeves.
Foxgrip reproduced those.
When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Schwinn Paramount : how old ?
- Thread starter Boiler
- Start date
#eBayPartner Most Recent BUY IT NOW Items Listed on eBay
ABC Services
Wore out three sets of tires already!
Please give Donald Mainland a little credit.
Schwinn Sales West
I live for the CABE
Yes certainly, how about Spike Shannon, and Frank Brillando was also very active in the Paramount program on many levels. I believe Don Mainland was involved with my 1963 (#N27) P14 Track Bike build.
Frank B. and Keith Kingbay oversaw the Olympic Paramount bikes which were custom built for the qualified team riders and sponsored by Schwinn for U.S. Team every four years. They also did the same for the Pan American games. I'm not sure Schwinn ever received full credit for everything they did for the U.S Team. Schwinn's support was pretty low key, they did not really advertise it much, just some mentions in the consumer catalogs.
Over the years Schwinn used bicycle racing to promote the Schwinn Brand as far back as the six day "Madison" races in the consumer catalogs. They not only supplied bicycles and parts but paid their top talented employees to oversee the race efforts. Maybe because they knew the real money was in selling hundreds of thousands of everyday bikes and not a just handful of custom-built Paramount's each year.
John
Schwinn Sales West
I live for the CABE
cyclingday
I'm the Wiz, and nobody beats me!
Wanda Omelian
Schwinn Sales West
I live for the CABE
So, what do you think that top frame photo is? Has head lugs, they look early, has "ball end" seat stays, and has brazed -on rear gear housing cable stops. All of that looks like a Paramount, but what's up with the none derailer hanger rear fork ends? It had to be a normal production frame looking at the stacks of frames behind it. Paramount's were never built in those quantities, not even in 1972-74 boom. She's wearing a Covid 19 mask?
The middle photo has the later angled seat stay caps, but the earlier seat lug cutout?
New World's?
That looks like a pretty low temperature flame, soft yellow for brazing.
I would never want to stand there and braze seat stays on all day, week in, week out.
No wonder they went on strike!
LOL, good photos, Thanks
John
cyclingday
I'm the Wiz, and nobody beats me!
I don’t know much about those photo’s, but I read, that those two women silver brazed all of the Paramount frames that were built in the cage at the Schwinn facility.
Boiler
'Lil Knee Scuffer
Good Afternoon :
Going to share a letter I have from the fellow I got them from , he passed away 12 years ago at 93 - so that would make him "OLD" today if he was alive . Just keep that in kind with time line when HE got the bikes .
I asked him to write this letter in 1994 , still cant find out what they are , W-121,122 . Are they Wastyn bikes , are they Proto Type to Paramounts due to the age . No where do I see these bikes starting with "W" in ser # ?
The GRIPS are at LEAST 50 years old , not some silly repops as some one pointed out ..
These bikes havent seen the light of day in years . I am not on here "Tooting my horn" nor am I here "Look at me , Look at me" I am looking for some one to tell me who and when built these bikes . The letter says 1937 , that would be PRE Schwinn Paramounts I get it (1938) , but why did Schwinn agree to re paint them if NOT Paramounts ?
Thank You for everyones in put !
cyclingday
I'm the Wiz, and nobody beats me!
Fabulous original provenance letters.
Thanks, for sharing those.
They are Wastyn built, as we’re all the Paramounts up until the late 1950’s.
Since Schwinn and Wastyn had a well established working relationship, and Schwinn had the state of the art painting facility.
Most if not all of the frames that Wastyn built, were painted at the Schwinn facility.
1937 jives on the all white tall frame bike, with the other two “Window” type headtube lug frames that are in the registry.
All of the early frames were built to order, so, I guess you could say, that up until Schwinn announced their official Paramount/Superior lightweight line in 1938, they all could be considered prototypes.
Note this image from the 1938 introductory catalog, showing the “Window” type headtube lugs.
Shown here on the Sports Tourist model.
I have not actually seen an early Sports Tourist with these type head tube lugs, but we now know, that Wastyn was using them early on. (Pre 1938)
So, I wouldn’t doubt that a early Sports Tourist frame shows up one day, with “Window” cut out head tube lugs.
The other two bikes, smaller mens with red head, and ladies model, are definitely postwar era bikes.
Most likely 1948ish give or take.
Thanks, for sharing those.
They are Wastyn built, as we’re all the Paramounts up until the late 1950’s.
Since Schwinn and Wastyn had a well established working relationship, and Schwinn had the state of the art painting facility.
Most if not all of the frames that Wastyn built, were painted at the Schwinn facility.
1937 jives on the all white tall frame bike, with the other two “Window” type headtube lug frames that are in the registry.
All of the early frames were built to order, so, I guess you could say, that up until Schwinn announced their official Paramount/Superior lightweight line in 1938, they all could be considered prototypes.
Note this image from the 1938 introductory catalog, showing the “Window” type headtube lugs.
Shown here on the Sports Tourist model.
I have not actually seen an early Sports Tourist with these type head tube lugs, but we now know, that Wastyn was using them early on. (Pre 1938)
So, I wouldn’t doubt that a early Sports Tourist frame shows up one day, with “Window” cut out head tube lugs.
The other two bikes, smaller mens with red head, and ladies model, are definitely postwar era bikes.
Most likely 1948ish give or take.
Last edited:
Schwinn Sales West
I live for the CABE
Let's set something straight first, I'm not the final "know all on the history of Wastyn-Schwinn Paramounts". My comments are based on racing them, owning several (still have five), wrecking one, and selling them when new as both a retail Schwinn Dealer and as a wholesale Schwinn Distributor Representative. I've even sold a few new Waterfords and Kestrals after the Schwinn days. I have observed many "over dinner conversations" with some of the key Schwinn Chicago employees. I don't think you will find one person still alive, or that still has a 100% photo memory of exactly the history that occurred during 1937. I would hope that your take my comments for only "what they are" and try your best to fill in the details. It is not my intention to mislead, but to reinforce and support what details may already be known and fill in some cracks.
There were very close ties between the Chicago Factory and The Wastyn shop when you ask anything about the early days of Schwinn's racing. Emil and Oscar, built the Paramount's in the beginning. Over time, the Paramount production transitioned over to the Schwinn factory cage. But the racing/building relationship between the two companies did not end in the 1938-41 time period, it lasted well into the 1960's. I purchased my first new Paramount a P14 track bike (#N27) to race at the August 1963 National Championships held in Northbrook, IL. I took a train from Phoenix, AZ to Chicago, met my uncle, Bill Bina who was a former bicycle racer with Frank Brilando the head engineer at Schwinn. Between Bill Bina, Frank Brilando at Schwinn, and Oscar Wastyn's bike shop they built me a new Lime Green Paramount track bike, built an extra set of lightweight Schreen "wood filled" rimed Campy track wheels and tires all glued on, and delivered the "ready to ride" bike to the infield at Northbrook for me to train on the bike a week before the Nationals. Wastyn's built up my bike, built the track wheels, and prepared the bike ready to ride. What was done at Schwinn, and what was done by Wastyn's was a very fine line back in the day, and still well into the 1960's.
You mentioned, why would they be painted as Schwinn Paramount's, when the "W" forkend number might really mean Wastyn's? Good question. Todays who can say if a Wastyn's built frame, was not sent over to the Chicago factory and run through the factories very high tech paint line. The factory already had the qualified pin striper's employed. The "box style" square corner pin striping was the same as they were doing on the New World's. During the 1960's Schwinn offered a promotional service for any Paramount owner. To keep your bike frame and fork looking good, they offered to repaint your Paramount frame and fork for $25.00 (dealer cost). It seemed cheap even 60 years ago. It was common to find Paramount's with factory original paint, but in colors/decals/pin strips/chrome fork tips that are not period correct to match the frame stamped serial number. My oldest (1940-50's) Paramount has a beautiful Sky Blue factory original paint job with the striping done like an early 60's model. At least in my mind, I would think it was very possible that the Wastyn frames could have been painted on a Schwinn paint line. My guess is that Wastyn built the weird stuff (custom frames) that would have just slowed the new Paramount cage down. It was not uncommon for Schwinn to farm out Paramount frame building to sub vendors during peak boom times. In time, high frame production eliminated pin striping altogether.
One of my big regrets is taking up Sig Mork's (then a Schwinn regional manager, later to become my boss) offer to repaint my well race worn, many time cross country shipped, Paramount frame set. He wrote on the back of his business card, GOOD FOR ONE FREE REPAINT, SIG. I sent my lime green frame set and his card back and had it repainted Kool Lemon. In the repaint, I lost about half of the pin striping because they reduced the amount and detail of it over time. End of the story is many Paramount's might look good, but not match their serial number, date of manufacture colors and trims.
It's interesting your bike frames are stamped on different fork ends. They were hand stamped for sure.
In the end, does it really matter which came first "the chicken, or the egg". We are just the curators of a cool piece of history that someone before us really loved. We should enjoy the machine or pass it on to someone else that will be able safely store, maintain, and enjoy it.
John Palmer
