1939/1940 Westfield (Victory) in Red

Discussion in 'Classic Balloon Tire Bicycles 1933-1965' started by thebigorangecat, Dec 20, 2017.

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  1. #1 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    UPDATE: Bicycle i.d.'d as: Westfield Built - Possibly a Victory Model

    BB Code: F 2 (1939 Built)
    Serial #: E125267 (1940 Assembly)

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    After digging around this forum for a few days, taking into account what the seller stated and now uncovering the original paint - I'm a bit (well a lot) confused on dating and identifying this frame.

    I have not found a look-a-like with the same darts and geometry. It also has vertical head badge holes.


    IMG_4412.JPG

    40q columbia.jpg

    40 columbia 1.jpg
     
    #1 thebigorangecat, Dec 20, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  2. #2 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Riding an Alexander Rocket Bike

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    It's a Westfield built frame.
     
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  3. #3 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    1939 Catalog

    full.jpg

    full.jpg

    (removed incorrect reference)
     
    #3 thebigorangecat, Dec 20, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
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  4. #4 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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  5. #5 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline

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    Serial looks to start with an "E" in which case this is a '40 model. I'm not sure where you got your list but it is wrong. V/r Shawn
     
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  6. #6 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    Hi, Freqman,

    the list is correct, just badly cut/paste and quoted. (I should know, I wrote the original).

    (Note to Thebigorangecat (TBOC), it is useful to give a link/reference to where you find information so that people can check for themselves, or see your sources when doing their own research).

    See post 11 here for the full details.

    https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/westfield-frame-numbers-1933-1945.100743/#post-657829

    I agree that Frame number E125267 is 1940.

    There is a second BB code which is a letter and one or two numbers which indicate when the frame was made. This can just be seen above the Frame number in TBOC's photo. It seems to be an F and a number. If TBOC can tell us what that is, the year and month the frame was made can be deciphered. If it is F then the frame was made in 1939. The number will indicate the month.

    Hope this helps,

    Best Regards,

    Adrian
     
  7. #7 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    full.jpg
     
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  8. #8 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    Adrian,

    Sorry for the butchered cut and paste - I forget sometimes that others could use this thread for their own research. I'll look tonight on the BB for the additional markings. I highlighted what I think you are referring to.

    full.jpg
     
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  9. #9 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    Here is a Hudson with darts on the seat tube...

    full.jpg

    PS: What is Pope Red vs. Red?
     
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  10. #10 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Cruisin' on my Bluebird

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  11. #11 Posted Dec 20, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    Hi TBOC, no problems, (-: Thanks for your helpful reply. The info was published here for all to use. You are correct, the area you've highlighted should have the other code. Pope was a founder company of Westfield, so I guess it's one of their distinctive colours. Vintagecolumbiabikes has a lot more detail on the history of the company.

    Hi Island Schwinn. So to confirm what you've probably figured, your frame was made in May 1937, but the bike was not built up until sometime in 1939 (can't be accurate without the number, but you can get the idea from the list).

    Best Regards,

    Adrian
     
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  12. #12 Posted Dec 21, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    It's an "F - 2" February of 1939 built frame with a 1940 assembly year serial number.

    Adrian, thanks so much for your help and the data base!

    full.jpg
     
    #12 thebigorangecat, Dec 21, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  13. #13 Posted Dec 21, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    Hi TBOC.

    Yes, that's right. (-:

    Thanks for your Thanks. Thank you too for using the Data Base, that's why I set it up, and it justifies the time involved.

    Have fun with the bike.

    Best Regards,

    Adrian
     
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  14. #14 Posted Dec 21, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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    With all due respect to Mr Columbia, Mercian and other contributors, it is my opinion based on the fourty or so Westfield bikes I've had pass through my hands that the overcode represents the final build/release year and the long serial with letter prefix is the frame build year and not the other way around. Why do I say this? Because I've never seen a bb where the overcode letter is before the letter at the beginning of the serial. Island Schwinn's bike is unusual in that it indicates both a frame build and year release D 1937. I can provide at least a half dozen or so bb images which bear this out.

    20171211_145427.jpg
     
    #14 Krakatoa, Dec 21, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  15. #15 Posted Dec 21, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    Hi Krakatoa,

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    To explain how I came to the conclusion that I did. I started the list because I was specifically interested in the Military Columbias being built in 1942-44, and so started collecting their details, including this unknown second bb stamp. Now, the thing about the Military bikes is that they were built and sent out almost immediately, because of the war effort. They are also dateable to an extent by a second feature, the Morrow hub date code, if they still have the original hub (this is what I was first trying to date them with). The hubs are dated by quarter, so they needed to be made by Morrow Eclipse (and dated), sent out to Westfield and assembled into the bike. So, logically, the hub would date from anything up to six months before manufacture of the bike. This works OK, but relies on original hubs (only a few bikes have them), and is not that accurate.

    However, when I compiled the lists of all Military bikes by frame number order (those in the table with frame numbers starting MG or MC), it was obvious that the bb code was also in order, and that for, say 1942 MG bikes, the bb code started with J and numbers in order up to 12, except at the beginning of the year, where there were a few H11 and H12 (I is not used between H and J to avoid confusion with 1). These high number H's I interpret as being frames made late 1941, but only completed in early1942.

    I then extended the list back to 1933. I could find no bb numbers. 1934 some A bb numbers occur late in the year (frame number starts with an M), so I concluded they introduced the system late in 1934. In 1934 (Frame M, bb A), and 1935 (Frame N, bb B) the frame letter is well ahead of the bb letter. In 1936 for some reason (possibly because the next frame letter is O and they didn't want to use it to avoid confusion with 0? That's a guess.), Westfield restarted the frame code at A. However the bb code continues in sequence with the next letter C..

    Both letters then go up with the same gap, in alphabetical order until 1942, when it gets complex due to war orders. The bb code skips from H to J to avoid I, and the frame code stops at G (with some unidentified exceptions) until 1945. During this period the bb code continues in alphabetical order, and so gets further ahead of the frame letter.

    In 1945, the war finishes. Westfield picks up frame letters at J, and abandons the bb code after L12 (December 44 bb). It tries a different code system for some months, which I can't figure due to insufficient examples, and then stops the bb codes completely.

    I hope this helps explain why I think I'm correct,. It also works with your observations because after 1936 they are correct, the bb letter is always after the frame letter. But the bb code started before then, and the two letter sequences don't run in parallel.

    Happy to discuss further any time.

    Best Regards,

    Adrian
     
  16. #16 Posted Dec 21, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    Another thing to look at l am thinking, might be Columbia Superb chain guard graphics and how they match these codes. If you look at the catalogs (in book that Scott sells) you will see that the Columbia bikes had year specific graphics on their "cheese cutter" chain guard for every year they were offered. Types of tanks and fenders come into play as well.
     
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