1950/51 Schwinn Continental - Large Frame (23") - Black

[WillWork4Parts]

Serial Number isn't in the catalog, I think we agreed on 1950 before. Definitely maroon over silver base.

 

[GTs58]

I'm at the old place today...where my caliper is not at!...otherwise I would get some more precise measurements. The tandem BB shell is wider and smooth bore. The only hole that is drilled is for the fender mount.

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The CM stamped Continental BB shell is more narrow and only has the hole drilled for the oil port. Oil port hole is drilled through the brazing(post weld). If I had time today, I'd say I'd take the Continentals apart, but I think they are smooth bore(no drain holes) too.
Anyone got a non CM stamped Conti or non CroMoly frame with threaded BB to measure?

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Thanks for your help, I think we're getting closer to finding out the real reason for these CM stampings. And I'm sorry for hijacking @rennfaron 's thread. If the Continentals took a specific width/diameter shell for its crankset that's different than the tandems and other lightweights, then the CM stamping could somewhat be considered a part number indicating that shell was specific to the Continentals. Some stampings are really light and probably only used for identification during frame the building with some possibly filled in with paint and not visible. When Schwinn started the post war models with EF frames and the new drop-out, they had to mark the drop outs with a part number at some point because the angles of the seat stays were not always the same and a different drop-out was required. A tall frame lightweight required a different drop out than a 26" cantilever frame. Some of those part number stampings were so light you couldn't see them unless you stripped the paint.

 

[Oilit]

I think those are the first "Clement Albione" rims I've seen. They look aluminum, correct? Since they're 27" they probably had to change the brakes along with the rims to fit, so somebody put some thought and effort into that build. What period are Clement Albione rims? @juvela, have you seen this bike?

 

[rennfaron]

I think those are the first "Clement Albione" rims I've seen. They look aluminum, correct? Since they're 27" they probably had to change the brakes along with the rims to fit, so somebody put some thought and effort into that build. What period are Clement Albione rims? @juvela, have you seen this bike?

@Oilit It's these - https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=0fd29ac3-f2ae-4383-9734-d6defdc46a2c&Enum=107
There isn't much info out there on them. And yes aluminum. They are in good shape and just need cleaning. Will be selling them at some point.

 

[WillWork4Parts]

@Oilit It's these - https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=0fd29ac3-f2ae-4383-9734-d6defdc46a2c&Enum=107
There isn't much info out there on them. And yes aluminum. They are in good shape and just need cleaning. Will be selling them at some point.

I'd mostly be interested in the hubs, but I have some stainless S6 hoops that will be up for trade. Sounds like we both have other things ahead of these projects, but keep me in mind when you do go to sell.

 

[SirMike1983]

British club bikes were transitioning from 26 x 1 1/4 (597mm) to 27 x 1 1/4 in the early and mid-1950s. After that, the performance bikes in Britain tended to be 27 x 1 1/4. That wheelset would be a good upgrade for a 1950s or later era club type bike. Selling the wheels and getting proper replacements is the way to go. The wheelset is relatively valuable.

I think I see the decal damage you mention. You still did OK. UPS destroyed an irreplaceable set of New Hudson celluloid fenders earlier this year on a bike that I bought. I'm not exactly optimistic with bike shipping these days between the cost and frequency of manhandling the boxes.

With parts, it's all on how much time and money you want to put into the bike. The brake calipers and levers can be located with time and money. They tend to be kind of expensive for what they really are (basic steel calipers and handles, but they're "Schwinn" after all). Original fenders will be kind of tricky because the rear would need to match the frame size, but doable with patience and money.

It's worth it, being a tall frame bike and somewhat of an unusual color. The only hesitation I would have with getting the parts is if there's damage to the frame. The seat mast should be checked for the miserable hairline cracks these frames sometimes form around the brazing at the seat stay to seat tube joint.

 

[rennfaron]

British club bikes were transitioning from 26 x 1 1/4 (597mm) to 27 x 1 1/4 in the early and mid-1950s. After that, the performance bikes in Britain tended to be 27 x 1 1/4. That wheelset would be a good upgrade for a 1950s or later era club type bike. Selling the wheels and getting proper replacements is the way to go. The wheelset is relatively valuable.

I think I see the decal damage you mention. You still did OK. UPS destroyed an irreplaceable set of New Hudson celluloid fenders earlier this year on a bike that I bought. I'm not exactly optimistic with bike shipping these days between the cost and frequency of manhandling the boxes.

With parts, it's all on how much time and money you want to put into the bike. The brake calipers and levers can be located with time and money. They tend to be kind of expensive for what they really are (basic steel calipers and handles, but they're "Schwinn" after all). Original fenders will be kind of tricky because the rear would need to match the frame size, but doable with patience and money.

It's worth it, being a tall frame bike and somewhat of an unusual color. The only hesitation I would have with getting the parts is if there's damage to the frame. The seat mast should be checked for the miserable hairline cracks these frames sometimes form around the brazing at the seat stay to seat tube joint.

I have two late 40s continentals and then this one now. One is complete, untouched, not even cleaned, and in great condition and will move it along (complete) at some point because I now have my bucket list large frame. The other I bought years ago and is a great candidate to pull some parts from because it has seen better days. I also have picked up other parts like saddles, brakes and pedals that I can use on this. The rear fender might be the hardest part to deal with but I am sure I can figure something out to make it work.

The shipping issue is a big deal. I bought two bikes recently: one packed by a bike shop and the other packed by a bike enthusiast. The bike shop did the most basic pack job possible and costed me $80 and the enthusiast packed it beyond expectations and I tipped $20 because he said he would do it for free to sell the bike. A lot has to do with the pack job. Sometimes the unique journey and each incompetent shipping employee along the way can do a lot of damage. I am even experiencing an up-charge out of the blue, a week after the bike already got here, that I am going to push back on (It was $80 on top of the $80 I spent on the label, saying I didn't measure/weigh correctly). How they think they can just send me a bill after they assume I already opened the box and therefore can't prove anything at that point is ridiculous. Little do they know I am busy and the box is still sitting here untouched.

Do you think that 4 speed setup was born on those wheels or do you think someone laced them up with the new setup? I don't know much about the setups for British bikes of that time that would have wheels like this. You had mentioned the hub found on British bikes of the 50s and then some research on those wheels show that they were found on British bikes at the time as well as Italian (Bianchi).

I will look for that crack, but also my bikes don't see much action and are more for preservation of history. So crack or not, it will hold a spot on my list for a long time.

 

[cyclingday]

Yep!
I started shying away from the early Superiors and Continentals due to their tendency to develop hairline cracks around the brazed joints.
I think the lug built frames were just a better construction method.
They required a lot less heat to the areas to be joined than the extreme heat that was required to join the fillet brazed frames.
That thin wall Chromoly tubing just got too brittle after being cooked to death.
I do love the look of the fillet brazed frames though, so when you get a good one that hasn’t shown any signs of cracking, it’s a very good day indeed.

 

[Oilit]

Yep!
I started shying away from the early Superiors and Continentals due to their tendency to develop hairline cracks around the brazed joints.
I think the lug built frames were just a better construction method.
They required a lot less heat to the areas to be joined than the extreme heat that was required to join the fillet brazed frames.
That thin wall Chromoly tubing just got too brittle after being cooked to death.
I do love the look of the fillet brazed frames though, so when you get a good one that hasn’t shown any signs of cracking, it’s a very good day indeed.

I always understood that the whole point of brazing a frame is that it's less heat than welding. Any high carbon steel can get hard if it's heated enough, and as a general rule the harder something is the more brittle it is, so hardening is good for cutting tools and wearing surfaces, but not good for frames. Welding works well on low carbon steel because low carbon steel doesn't get hard, but it's not as strong as high carbon steel.
On the other hand I think the Super Sports and Sports Tourist frames from the '70's were silver soldered instead of brazed, so maybe even brazing was too much heat. The only welding I had was an introductory course many years ago, so there's a lot I don't know. But I read somewhere that "silver solder" is actually mostly nickel, the name comes from "German silver", an old name for nickel. If somebody on here knows more about this, don't hesitate to enlighten me.

 

[SirMike1983]

I don't know enough about Italian-made parts to say for sure when those were made. British-made endrick steel rims (good rims) and "special lightweight" stainless steel rims (even better) were common, with the biggest upgrade being rims like the Dunlop aluminum alloy club (really nice and unusual to find now). Later, Weinmann aluminum was also available. But given the advanced riders at the club bike level, customized wheelsets were a possibility, and would be even more likely if the rider wanted aluminum rims because British wheels tended to use steel rims (though very good steel) later than others.

I'd be inclined to offer them up as club style wheels and see if any old road bike guys bite on them. They certainly do look pretty old just from how they present.

On the frame cracks, the most common one I've seen starts as a small hairline where the seat stay is brazed to the seat tube, and then extends as the bike is ridden. It often follows the contour of the brazing or the seat stay end. Sometimes they get bigger and have to be addressed and sometimes they reach a certain size and then stop, even if the bike is ridden. It's not a majority of the Continentals I've seen, but it is common enough that I look for them now.

If the bike is not being ridden, obviously no big deal and worth just leaving alone. A framebuilder probably could repair it too, on frames that are worth it (patching up of the paint would be needed). A tall frame Continental would be worth it if it posed a problem. Of course if there's no crack and you have a tall frame, you've hit a jackpot.

What is maybe most surprising is that a fillet brazed frame on a performance bike in those days was a more "budget" offering because of the cheaper cost of labor. It was cheaper to pay someone to braze up a frame with a brazing rod than to buy high-end lugs and then pay someone to fit and braze up the frame with the lugs. Today fillet brazed frames built by hand are boutique things and you'd better have your wallet ready... There is a certain allure to the fillet brazed Schwinn frames.