2 Speed Two Chain Panther Iii

[Balloonatic]

Sorry Dave, they reiterated to me several times before sending the pix the bike is strictly not for sale.... but if it ever comes available.. I'll sell it to a true Schwinn lover.

rickyd - SO sorry for the an....ti.....ci......pation... I'm working on it and will update as soon as I can get over there and inspect that rear hub a little better or even better yet, ride the dang thing. I won't leave you hanging, I promise.

 

[CrazyDave]

RickyD saw it three times today evidently, I was hoping he would hook a brother up! If its strictly not for sale this all seems for nothing... To get inside the mind of the man who did this to that bike, that is why im here, "why the hell?!"

 

[Balloonatic]

Runnin' down a dream... workin' on a mystery...

OK, so I talked to the owner on the Panther III, and indeed he rode that bike one time, and it shifts as we suspected.... automatically with the pressure on the pedals! So it starts out in high gear, and as you pedal and pick up speed, it automatically shifts into a lower gear. When you brake, it shifts back to high gear again automatically. What a cool set up!

Apparently the hub and brake arm are marked, as is the crank, so it looks to be a legit, aftermarket set up by an outside company to Schwinn, not some hokey thing someone devised and threw on there. I will have to go over this weekend or early next week and we'll take it down from the ceiling and I'll get some photos of those parts. I'll also try to get better all around shots for ya'll.

He reiterated that the bike had been in that shop from new and was never sold, he is the first owner. I neglected to ask him exactly when he got it, but will when I see him so we'll have more info & context. I will also find out which town and what state the shop was, maybe some of you old timers will remember seeing it there since it seems it hung in the window from 1961 when it was new until he bought it. (I'm going by GTs58's date here.)

To address the comments that the pedals are the "wrong" pedals for a '61 Panther III and the rack is also apparently "wrong" (three reflector vs. four, do I have that right?) and the badge is somehow incorrect or altered... in the classic/vintage car world these types of changes or upgrades when determined to have been done at the factory or dealer are considered unique and often enhance the value vs. detract from it. (Think Mopar where certain features like the big brakes and hemi radiator were ordered and installed at the factory (or the dealer) on a non hemi car.) If this bike was never sold, and the first time it left the dealer it was in this configuration, it seems to me anyway, that makes it unique and more valuable, not less. In the car world, this bike would be considered "1 of 1". "Correctness" is often overrated, and uniqueness often makes something much more interesting, especially in this case where we have first hand testimony that it's how it left the dealer the very first time it was sold.

This two-chain, two-speed set up is totally unique, and sets this bike apart from all the other Panther IIIs out there; add that to the rack and pedal changes made at the dealer before it left there the first time, and well, here sits a bike like no other.

Thanks for all the comments... stay tuned for the brand and photos of the hub & crank markings. It will be very interesting to see who made this set up. I'm wondering why we have never seen it before.

 

[GTs58]

From the owners description of how it shifts, I guess we can CAN the idea that the sprockets are matched for gearing and it's not just a double chain drive on a 2 speed automatic hub. Interesting. A centrifugal clutch set up maybe?

If that bike sat in a shop for all those years, chances are someone in that shop was experimenting with the drivetrain components, and it could have possibly been a demo model for that particular (unknown) drivetrain set up.

The differences in the two carriers is at the back corners of the main support rods. The earlier version is rounded and the later is squared off. In the 1962 catalog you'll see both styles illustrated, Schwinn through out the years used the catalog pictures from the previous year(s) on many of the models.

 

[Balloonatic]

Good observations, GT... I don't think the owner will let me disassemble the rear hub to find out how it works, but I'm hoping he may let me ride it so I can report back to everyone on how it works at least. I also want to see the maker's mark so we know who produced it. Seems like a really cool, useful idea though.. a two-speed automatic... I'm surprised it didn't take off.

I collect vintage Japanese tin robots from the early 1950s. When we consider these were inexpensive (often sold for under $1) toys often called "Jap scrap" when I was a kid, they are now very highly prized collector items; some selling for over $80,000. I often have to remind collectors of the context of the times when they were produced. When assembling, if they ran out of a certain set of arms for instance, they would sometimes use arms from another robot toy. Or, if they had parts left over, they would often use them up on the next year's model rather than throw them away. There are some pretty interesting "variations" in the robot collector world as a result.

It's quite possible this bike was made at the end of one model year run, or at the beginning of another, and they used the parts they had. Does it make it incorrect or wrong just because it doesn't match the catalog picture for that year bike? We have to remember bikes in the 50s and 60s had become more kid's toys; they were no longer the serious "machine" turn of the century bikes were that cost 6 month's salary and replaced your horse. In TOC advertising, it is often recommended you keep your machine in the house! It was an important and serious mode of transportation, not a kid's toy at all.

This accounts for things like seeing prewar horn buttons on postwar bikes; in those days you didn't waste anything, manufacturers used up all the parts they could. Whether installed at the bike dealer or done at the factory, this is how that bike left the store when it was sold to the first owner, and in my mind it's correct and original. Does it match the catalog? Maybe not, but does that make this bike less than? Or less valuable? Certainly not... in my mind, as I said above, it makes it more valuable, unique and desirable.

 

[CrazyDave]

Id like to know where this going,.....no way schwinn made this bike with those chain rings, rack, or pedals. 0% chance. It certainly makes it less valuable than a original, its not for sale to the OP or anyone else...whats the point here? Im more than curious.

 

[bairdco]

Even with the owner's claim of a true two speed automatic shift, I don't believe it.

Fichtel and Sachs made an auto shifting two speed in the 60's but it never caught on, and had a single sprocket. Also had a large, finned hub shell.

From the pics, the hub isn't finned on this bike.

With a two cog set-up, they would have to turn independent of each other, or it wouldn't pedal.

Other semi-interesting things I've noticed, the axle on the hub appears normal. Adding another cog and room for a chain, would probably add width to the hub, but I guess a longer axle coulda been used, or maybe it's been shifted over and the other side is hanging on by a thread (literally.)

The crank on the left side of the bottom bracket shows no extra threads, and a sprocket is not much wider than the big washers used to get a correct chainline, so the stock crank could be used, as long as the left side doesn't hit the frame. Ashtabula cranks have a pretty wide stance, so it'd probably clear no problem.

And the smaller front sprocket is probably off a 16" Schwinn. The Pixie II used a 28t solid sprocket, so a Schwinn shop would probably have one laying around.

Until I see this thing ridden, or at least pedaled (and braked,) I'm still thinking it's a matching ratio'd single speed.

Unless some mad genius invented something in an obscure little schwinn shop and kept it under wraps for 40-50 years, I can't see any other way it would work.

 

[rickyd]

Throwing this out there, I have it as a four speed with an auto two speed hub and a centrifugal clutch somewhere to change sprockets.

 

[GTs58]

Good observations, GT... I don't think the owner will let me disassemble the rear hub to find out how it works, but I'm hoping he may let me ride it so I can report back to everyone on how it works at least. I also want to see the maker's mark so we know who produced it. Seems like a really cool, useful idea though.. a two-speed automatic... I'm surprised it didn't take off. /QUOTE]

.

A two speed automatic was a very popular and already used idea. Some call it the Bendix two speed kickback, and it came without all the other added on parts.
I blew up one of the pictures and it looks like the large rear sprocket is somewhat incorporated in the hub shell. At least that's what it looks like. Can't wait till we finish the book on this one

 

[bairdco]

Going deeper on speculation, or at least how to make something similar, you could make a fixie clown bike by somehow attaching a freewheel on backwards to the existing cog.

Then find an "un-brake," that was used in the early days of bmx freestyle to convert a coaster into a freewheel. (You could also modify a coasterbrake to do the same thing.)

Then, as you pedal forward, the smaller sprocket freewheels and you go forward.

Pedal backwards and you go backwards, and the larger sprocket freewheels.

Goofy and stupid, but it'd work. I think.