26" vs 27" Wheels

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bulldog1935

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
What kind of bike is this? That is.....wow!
I wish I knew, stumbled on it looking for a fat 650b tire - I'll go hunting again - nice thing about The CABE, it permanently archives photos used in your posts.
I'll be back...


Found a later version elsewhere
Sauvage Lejeune Campeur Bike
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/39151498@N07/sets/72157626711955076/

found it on my google history, but the link didn't bring up the photo - it's somewhere on this bikeforums thread
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/612294-show-your-french-bikes-20.html
but clearly, this bike below is older than the 1960 example, must be 30s-40s
double-cable-pull derailleurs, and chainstay-mounted RD, on a frame braze-on
I think that's a dust cover over the cottered steel Stronglight crank
totally a holy grail dream bike (and my size)
mmkHpW5.jpg

maybe @juvela can identify and date this drivetrain - I couldn't find it on Disraeli Gears, including scanning through their documents, but similar derailleurs are late 30s
 
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rhm

Look Ma, No Hands!
I'm no expert on Nivex derailleurs, have never seen one. From my reading I gather the company went under, and Alex Singer bought up the remaining stock, which was mostly unassembled parts. They had some of the steel bits chromed, and had the missing parts made, and continued to sell the derailleurs into the 1960's.

I can't quite read the stamps on the saddle, but it looks like an early 1960's Idéale 42. I don't see anything to suggest a date before 1960, but what do I know. Nivex isn't the only thing I'm not an expert on....
 

juvela

I live for the CABE
-----

Note on Sauvage name -

while the French word sauvage and the English one savage enjoy a common latin root (silvaticus) their respective meanings are somewhat different.

sauvage intends "wild" in the sense of "the wild geese" or having to do with being in a state of nature. it carries not the English savage suggestion of brutish/violent.

readers who enjoyed the wonderful Sauvage Lejeune gallery posted by bulldog1935 above may have noticed that despite the scores of excellent images it contains no good look at he machine's nameplate is presented. suspect this may have been intentional by poster as the emblem is somewhat "politically incorrect"...

qp2qmu.jpg

---

reportedly, use of the Sauvage name ended in 1969 with machines produced thereafter badged simply as Lejeune.
-----
 

wrongway

I live for the CABE
What you gain with fine casings even in clinchers is, like a high-grade tubular, the carcass spreads the road shock farther through the casing, and less through the frame and fork.
On cold mornings you can tell the difference between the U of a clincher and the perfect doughnut of a tubular.
All my friends have come around and are ex-teeth-chatterers, now also riding on clouds.
The smallest tires I ride are 27mm, and those are the hand-glued with 320 tpi linen-polyester casings.
It's always wise to mount the widest tires that give good clearance on your bike.
Especially if you believe Jan's logic, most "racer wisdom" is myth, though the aero factor is a worthwhile argument.
Racers need every edge they can get, because they often win or lose by seconds - the rest of us go plenty fast and still out pace most people on their skinny hard tires.
View attachment 933313
as far as pressure goes, a tire that conforms to the road surface is faster, though many people believe their senses that ragged-edge road chatter is faster.
In reality, the tire loses momentum every time it leaves the road, and has to catch up when it recontacts, so high-pressure-induced road chatter is self-limiting on speed.

An important point about Berto chart for tire load and pressure, optimizing the contact patch can quadruple the life of your tire tread. This is somewhat important if you're buying high-dollar tires. Too high pressure, you're not riding as fast/efficient, and your tires wear out in one-fourth of the miles.
View attachment 933341
 

harpon

Finally riding a big boys bike
I just reread this thread and the aforementioned blogs in the post above, which I find are pure B.S. All the "myths" of Bicycling Quarterly (is it?) are pretty much bed rock cycling principle and knowledge and maybe a "sell gasoline" person or self-ordained theorist has come in the door. The "testing" described in the "rolling tests" are totally undefined, as to form and parameters- there are NO control tests described or any real data given, and typical of the information highway being turned into the misinformation highway by sheer force of internet wind. In fact the weight of tires is a big factor and "racer wisdom" has been formed by years and decades of controlled testing- a same rider doing the same kinds of things in the most extreme of conditions. That's why back in the day we'd take care to have- if we could- 220 gram Clement Setas on our rims if we were going into a fast tight criterium course with a relatively smooth road surface, to get the best roll and the constant best accelerating blast out of every corner. If it was a road course or longer not so cornered criterium, the usual standard was a 250 gram seta sew up- not as fast but more reliable. Probably 75 per cent of racers in the days when everyone would line up on full-campy bikes had 250 silks on their rims- maybe in Europe they'd go a little heavier, and with rougher roads.

Sew ups were NEVER reliable though and I was glad to see light and narrow 700c come along- a format conceived in size to replace sew ups of the day without altering tire size. I suffered from some back pains in my later years and I tried to accept some of the "blog theory" I think even when I took to sporting even heavier Clement 290 gram setas in open and flatter road races, and then trying to get some roll back by "bombing" them with slightly more pressure. In fact. the heavier the flimsy silk sew up, the more reliable it indeed was- 250 more than 220 gram and 290 even more so- all still a crapshoot though. I rode 14 seasons on sew-up tires and rims- almost all my training as well, and it was an extreme pleasure when it was finally over to have some 700 clinchers on I could assume would probably not puncture in the first 25 miles like sew-ups sometimes did. Do NOT knock "racer wisdom" if you haven'
acquired it skidding some road rash into your butt, when yours, or someone else's sew-up tire blew in the middle of a turn!

Yet at almost any level I've ever ridden- more narrow and lighter tires ALWAYS roll better- 1 1/8" rolled better than 1 1/4" 27 inch tires and I even went to 27 x 1 3/8 tires on the gas bikes and could tell the difference both pedaling and with the China Girl. and the same now holds true of most 700 tires I've tried (which can have great discrepancies while still claiming the same widths, yet that's another issue) No- there's plenty of multi-use needs for using different tires of different widths and weights and profiles- but I've always found that widening things always reduces the roll, given the same tire pressure.
being davad.jpg

One typical 250 seta blow out and you're discovered beneath the truck.
 
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bulldog1935

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
read it, but maybe didn't understand it, and maybe no experience with quality tires to compare.
There's a whole 'nother world out there. The reason to ride 700c is to get the quality tire options, which have never been available in 27x.

"I tried tubulars once - Vittoria Rallyes" - actually, he didn't - those might as well be solid rubber. The reason they call these vulcanized sew-up "training tires" is low cost and racking up miles where speed and seconds advantage is not an issue. All Actual Professional Racers today and yesterday ride Dugast tubulars (hand-glued over linen casings), to the point they buy Dugast tires at the event and paste their sponsor's labels over the Dugast ink. Wannabe racers confuse fast with hard tire chatter - we've been over that. The one place small contact patch makes a difference is on a perfectly smooth track, because there are no bumps like with real-life pavement.
(the 27 on the sidewall is mm width - this is a cobblestone tubular).
DSC01121_grande.jpg

Also note no professional racers have ever ridden clinchers (or even most amateurs) - clinchers came about for convenience of changing tires, throwing out performance for convenience. The good thing for the rest of us, over the last 10 years, they've formulated good clinchers that give us back Most of the qualities of tubulars, including hand-glued construction using quality materials. I'll add again about Compass, Jan Heine has been through the effort working with Panaracer to develop a casing for a vulcanized tire that's almost as good as hand-glued.

The thing is, they've done the dyno tests to prove actual rolling resistance over seat of pants. The one place narrow tires improve is less aerodynamic drag. Any time acceleration is involved (climbing by definition is accelerating against gravity) lighter weight is always more efficient, and you feel the difference in rotational energy.

The city/touring tire mentality for flat resistance is also backwards - soft thin tires shed flint and glass shards, while hard thick rubber plants them and eventually works them into the tube. The people who flat on group rides are always on gatorskins. Actual touring under load, tandems, etc., you do need heavy body tires to support the load.

The best way to get a blow-out is to over-pressure a clincher bead and add the centrifugal loads of going really fast downhill. The other way is too-low pressure, so that you get a pinch flat from the bead moving on sharp bumps (e.g. railroad track). Another reason Berto chart is a good starting point - make sure you have enough pressure.
 
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wrongway

I live for the CABE
Well, Bulldog, I seem to have proved I can't operate new technology.....lol I meant to quote your post and ask if I was understanding it right. You're saying harder pressure tires can actually 'bounce' over bumps and cracks and therefore lose speed?
 

bulldog1935

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
exactly correct, friend - something else they've addressed in dynamometer testing using rough rolling surfaces on the dyno drums.
...You're saying harder pressure tires can actually 'bounce' over bumps and cracks and therefore lose speed?
And not just low-frequency cracks and bumps - chatter is the tire bouncing over the high frequency finer features in the road texture.
Jan is not the only one who has done this testing - you can find many independent tests, though still aimed at comparing (and selling) quality road clinchers.

On last Sunday morning's crack-of-dawn Alamodome sprint, the very athletic gentleman (pretty sure USAF officer and at least 25 years my junior) on the late Specialized road bike, and whose gatorskin flat we fixed before taking off, followed me through all the downtown lights. Not intentionally, I scraped him off on the Chavez St. stretch, and was first to our stop.
I was on my '74 International with fenders and front rando bag - 32mm Compass tires, about 73 psi rear, 70 front - and it was wet, which I have no worries on these tires, but did point out a slick turn onto Broadway to the guys right behind me.
z3IYRsC.jpg

you can see I dropped it onto granny for the climb up the wheelchair ramp switchback to our landing - I love my half-steps+granny, and have two bikes set up this way.

ps - fast is only a byproduct of this tire choice - the reason to pick this tire is ride comfortably and stay up on rocks and slick in the real world.
 
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fattyre

I live for the CABE
Ahh. Nothing like a good old fashion tire debate....

I’ve always wondered what the tires themselves would say if they could talk.

I take this approach. Who cares? Air em up and go. Cycling is all calculated risk. Through the years it seems to me it’s the motor that makes the biggest difference. You can put the nicest tires on a crappy bike and guess what? It’s still up to your will power, your strength and your fitness.
 

bulldog1935

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
Falling is always faster than staying upright on a flat surface - independent of tire chatter. Any time you lean to turn, you get free acceleration, especially on courses that you know.
(add chatter to that turn, and you're way behind)
I love that mash feel of accelerating uphill just after a sweeping turn - when they raced steel bikes, though mostly trial and error, they built steel frames to take advantage of this.
My Carlton-built Raleigh definitely falls in that category (32mm tires barely fit the round chainstays, which are without tire crimps).
If you put good wheels on the crappy bike, you change its nature.

Two approaches to tire debates - seat of pants and math. I'm a licensed professional engineer of 40 years, and apply it to everything I do - fishing tackle, kayaks.
Any time myth is involved in an argument, so is see no evil, hear no evil
 
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harpon

Finally riding a big boys bike
Professionals raced for years on clinchers before tubular tires. Thinner is always a better roll at the same pressure. They usually weigh less too, a consideration accelerating and climbing. You can't "myth" what so many learned for so long doing mile after miles for years and decades. No one who raced on sew ups would ever want to return to them for casual or touring rides- they puncture much easier. So on the one hand these arguments seem based on practical need and comfort favoring wider tires- ride them, they have more rolling resistance- yet on the other hand is this annoying obsession with dead and largely less reliable sew up formats. Let me guess, you find vinyl 33's better sounding than CDs or digital files. Pop Musak!
DSCF2254.JPG

I like 23mm tires and find they roll even better than 25mm, but they don't last long. Both can be replaced each year for less than a decent sew-up cost even back in the '70's. Many sew-ups had cheap cotton casings, and were heavy and crap, and if they had spent any shelf time or survived a year, the rot factor on cotton sew-ups was especially bad, and they had high rates of failure. Gluing them on and taking glued tires off was a messy tiresome pain- you couldn't just let glue collect repeatedly either, but had to use solvent to remove it from the rims periodically.

We had an ABL of A state rep in Indiana at the time who took pride in rolling the tires of the rims of riders on the starting line, There'd be groans and cursings from riders as he'd go through the pack before the start, but he did this again and again for several years. In one of my first junior races, I once had a cheap Wolber cotton sew-up roll off its' own stitch covering in the middle of a corner- which was still solidly glued to the rims. The rear tire was still holding air but twisted up and held the rim fast. They said that sparks were flying off the wheel behind me. It was only fortune that a tall chain link fence was outside the corner I was going through and I stayed upright coming to rest against it. I never used Wolber Sew-ups again and called them Wobblers. A 23mm clincher is similar in profile to a tubular, and the tube can be replaced and while heavier the tire is also usually more reliable than a sew up casing. I think they are a major leap forward from the old days for a lot of casual riders and training.
 
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