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Anyone identify these lugs and or frame?
- Thread starter donmac70
- Start date
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juvela
Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe
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Thank you for the clarification.
Was assuming circumferential.
Chris mentioned Olmo as employing the "BRIANZA" lug pattern.*
The set was in production for more than three decades and was employed by hundreds of Italian makers.
To give some idea as to the "needle in a haystack" search when an Italian frame does not bear a proprietary feature here is a very incomplete alphabetical list of one thousand Italians -
http://www.italiaanseracefietsen.com/merkenlijst/#
Another well known and relatively large marque which employed it for a long period was Torresini ("Torpado").
And their headplate fasteners were horizontal.
Had to eliminate them straightaway as their serials are placed on the side of the seat tube and commence with a triangular symbol.
If we take the seat binder collar to be original we can likely eliminate many of the very well known badges as they tended to place their name on the collar.
This tends to suggest we are looking at a frame from a relatively small producer (or one done on a contract basis) which limits the chance of a correct identification.
Do not have my reamer specifications in my head. Reamers abide in same location as headplates so will check for a marking when I get back there. As I remember they are not letter denominated but are rather marked with a size range in inches.
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* Brianza is a place name from where Agrati was located.
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Thank you for the clarification.
Was assuming circumferential.
Chris mentioned Olmo as employing the "BRIANZA" lug pattern.*
The set was in production for more than three decades and was employed by hundreds of Italian makers.
To give some idea as to the "needle in a haystack" search when an Italian frame does not bear a proprietary feature here is a very incomplete alphabetical list of one thousand Italians -
http://www.italiaanseracefietsen.com/merkenlijst/#
Another well known and relatively large marque which employed it for a long period was Torresini ("Torpado").
And their headplate fasteners were horizontal.
Had to eliminate them straightaway as their serials are placed on the side of the seat tube and commence with a triangular symbol.
If we take the seat binder collar to be original we can likely eliminate many of the very well known badges as they tended to place their name on the collar.
This tends to suggest we are looking at a frame from a relatively small producer (or one done on a contract basis) which limits the chance of a correct identification.
Do not have my reamer specifications in my head. Reamers abide in same location as headplates so will check for a marking when I get back there. As I remember they are not letter denominated but are rather marked with a size range in inches.
---
* Brianza is a place name from where Agrati was located.
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Last edited:
juvela
Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe
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Buongiorno donmac70,
Su bici di mistero -
Had an opportunity to check me headplates. The 40mm horizontal looks to be quite a common arrangement.
The following of me assortment fit it -
Atala (Cesare Rizzato)
Bianchi (2 styles)
Garlatti
Girardengo (these are contract builds reportedly done in prisons)
Hermes (believed contract badge)
Italsport (believed contract badge)
Lygie (Cesare Rizzato)
Vittoria (in-house brand from Fiorelli)
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Notes -
Many/most Italian metal badges look to have been done by one maker. They appear to have had several stock blank shapes to choose from. Cycle manufacturers would have been able to get a better price by selecting one of these, hence saving the setup cost of a custom shape.
Some of the stock patterns included ovals, shield shapes, etc.
There are likely hundreds of marques which fit the 40mm horizontal fastener arrangement so it does little to advance an identification other than eliminating the hundreds of marques which do not employ it.
Rizzato owned at least six or eight marques however their serials are placed on the drive side of the seat tube.
Girardengo bicycles wear a second metal emblem affixed to the seat tube.
Garlatti did a good deal of contract work.
Torresini - checked a Torpado badge with a two fastener horizontal arrangement and it is greater than 40mm. As mentioned earlier, Torresini serials are on the seat tube, in any event.
Perhaps we can hear from master frame detective @MauriceMoss to advance this discussion.
Outcome likely has two possibilities -
a) Maurice will recognise it
b) it shall remain unknown
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Buongiorno donmac70,
Su bici di mistero -
Had an opportunity to check me headplates. The 40mm horizontal looks to be quite a common arrangement.
The following of me assortment fit it -
Atala (Cesare Rizzato)
Bianchi (2 styles)
Garlatti
Girardengo (these are contract builds reportedly done in prisons)
Hermes (believed contract badge)
Italsport (believed contract badge)
Lygie (Cesare Rizzato)
Vittoria (in-house brand from Fiorelli)
---
Notes -
Many/most Italian metal badges look to have been done by one maker. They appear to have had several stock blank shapes to choose from. Cycle manufacturers would have been able to get a better price by selecting one of these, hence saving the setup cost of a custom shape.
Some of the stock patterns included ovals, shield shapes, etc.
There are likely hundreds of marques which fit the 40mm horizontal fastener arrangement so it does little to advance an identification other than eliminating the hundreds of marques which do not employ it.
Rizzato owned at least six or eight marques however their serials are placed on the drive side of the seat tube.
Girardengo bicycles wear a second metal emblem affixed to the seat tube.
Garlatti did a good deal of contract work.
Torresini - checked a Torpado badge with a two fastener horizontal arrangement and it is greater than 40mm. As mentioned earlier, Torresini serials are on the seat tube, in any event.
Perhaps we can hear from master frame detective @MauriceMoss to advance this discussion.
Outcome likely has two possibilities -
a) Maurice will recognise it
b) it shall remain unknown
-----
juvela
Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe
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Reamer -
the one used here for seat tubes is a Chadwick Nr. 28 rated 1"-1 1/8"
these do not have letter sizes
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Chris wrote frame looks to him as though plating original and there was painting over it. For corroboration of this suggestion you could check steerer, head tube interior and shell interior for any paint traces.
BTW - does steerer bear any markings?
---
Reasoning behind pillar size inquiry -
It was common at this time for Italian manufacturers to offer a midliner model which had the 1010 ends set, & Campag Gran Sport gear ensemble paired with Magistroni cottered chainset and Magistroni headset. Such a machine would be built of Falck (for example) and have a pillar size in the range of 26.0mm and 26.4mm. So your pillar size measured is within reason there.
HOWEVER - since cycle fitted with Campag Record chainset it seems likely a top-of-the-line professional model. For such a model one would expect db tubing and a pillar size of 27.0mm or 27.2mm.
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Reamer -
the one used here for seat tubes is a Chadwick Nr. 28 rated 1"-1 1/8"
these do not have letter sizes
---
Chris wrote frame looks to him as though plating original and there was painting over it. For corroboration of this suggestion you could check steerer, head tube interior and shell interior for any paint traces.
BTW - does steerer bear any markings?
---
Reasoning behind pillar size inquiry -
It was common at this time for Italian manufacturers to offer a midliner model which had the 1010 ends set, & Campag Gran Sport gear ensemble paired with Magistroni cottered chainset and Magistroni headset. Such a machine would be built of Falck (for example) and have a pillar size in the range of 26.0mm and 26.4mm. So your pillar size measured is within reason there.
HOWEVER - since cycle fitted with Campag Record chainset it seems likely a top-of-the-line professional model. For such a model one would expect db tubing and a pillar size of 27.0mm or 27.2mm.
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MauriceMoss
'Lil Knee Scuffer
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Perhaps we can hear from master frame detective @MauriceMoss to advance this discussion.
Outcome likely has two possibilities -
a) Maurice will recognise it
b) it shall remain unknown
-----
Oh boy, the pressure!
Sadly, I must disappoint. As @juvela mentioned, this is indeed going to be a needle-in-a-haystack kind of a thing. Everyone and their mamma used these lugs back in the day. Finding who made this particular frame will be tough.
Looking at the stay ends made me think Gloria but then I think they stamped their numbers on the back of the seat lug (plus were normally 6 digits?).
I'd say the most common placement of frame numbers during this period was on the seat lug (back or side) and seat tube. Of the brands mentioned earlier, Olmo I think also stamped side and back of the seat lug, and had a format that started with a letter followed by 3-4 numbers.
The pointy stay ends and the frame number location might be the least generic aspects here, but I'm not sure how much they can advance the ID search. One other thing that's somewhat interesting are those cable stops on the top tube. Normally, on frames I've seen, there are either no stops, they are on the underside of the top tube or the cables are routed internally. Unless, those were added later, which is always possible.
Too bad about the seat stay.
juvela
Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe
Oh boy, the pressure!
Sadly, I must disappoint. As @juvela mentioned, this is indeed going to be a needle-in-a-haystack kind of a thing. Everyone and their mamma used these lugs back in the day. Finding who made this particular frame will be tough.
Looking at the stay ends made me think Gloria but then I think they stamped their numbers on the back of the seat lug (plus were normally 6 digits?).
I'd say the most common placement of frame numbers during this period was on the seat lug (back or side) and seat tube. Of the brands mentioned earlier, Olmo I think also stamped side and back of the seat lug, and had a format that started with a letter followed by 3-4 numbers.
The pointy stay ends and the frame number location might be the least generic aspects here, but I'm not sure how much they can advance the i.d. search. One other thing that's somewhat interesting are those cable stops on the top tube. Normally, on frames I've seen, there are either no stops, they are on the underside of the top tube or the cables are routed internally. Unless, those were added later, which is always possible.
Too bad about the seat stay.
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Thanks so much for your thoughts Maurice!
The only (slighlty) distinctive feature I could notice on the frame was the housing stops on the top tube. However, since we can not be sure as to whether the plating is original or post manufacture we cannot be sure if these stops are original.
wrt Olmo serials -
yes indeed they are on the seat lug at this era and yes the format is LNNN (letter, number, number, number).
Discussed in detail by the illustrious Peter Brueggeman at his Olmo web site -
http://www.peterbrueggeman.com/cr/catalogues/olmo-ssn.htm
Am an owner of four Olmo from around this time so have a spot of familiaritude.
Thank you again Maurice.
mickalica
On Training Wheels
hi, i know it is a bit late, found your post yesterday looking for id of another bike, but you are having probably cimatti. i have same frame with headbadge. everything is same, mine is having inner routing in toptube. not very often to find this bikes, had simplex, cottered cranks, centerpullers, a bit mixed parts, seat post itm. pump holders same design, lugs
juvela
Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe
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donmac70 -
in the event it may be of interest replica Cimatti transfer sets are available here:
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donmac70 -
in the event it may be of interest replica Cimatti transfer sets are available here:
Vintage Transfers
vintagetransfers.it
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