Automoto Identification

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Yelbom15

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Hello,

Purchased a bicycle from Italy not realizing it was an Automoto once I adjusted the photos to see the head had clovers on it. However, no holes whatsoever for the head badge. This design was for Automotos between 1920s and early 1930s but I can’t determine anything more from that. Lugs and eyelets resemble a Bianchi Saetta. Even serial number placement resembles where Bianchis put there’s. Possibility of both brands being manufactured in the same factory? Has internal routing as well.

It does show some different assortments of components such as the cranks. That I’m not worried about.
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dnc1

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
I did a search on Tontonvelo, but I see you've already posted information there.
You can use the plating on the fork crown as a rough guide to dating .
Generally speaking, chrome plating started being used in 1929, prior to that date nickel plating was used.
I'm not sure that they are internal routing holes, (1920's/30's may be slightly early for that) I think it more likely that they are the mounting points for rod brake pivots.
Nice find.
 

Yelbom15

'Lil Knee Scuffer
I did a search on Tontonvelo, but I see you've already posted information there.
You can use the plating on the fork crown as a rough guide to dating .
Generally speaking, chrome plating started being used in 1929, prior to that date nickel plating was used.
I'm not sure that they are internal routing holes, (1920's/30's may be slightly early for that) I think it more likely that they are the mounting points for rod brake pivots.
Nice find.
Rod brake pivots makes a lot more sense. I’ll take a look at the plating tonight and thank you. First pre-war bike.
 

dnc1

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
Oh, and welcome to the Cabe!
Are there also similar holes at the base of the down tube?
Often things like brakes get changed around through time but those are nice era correct brakes on there.
The French were very fond of using that style of brake as an upgrade on rod-brake type rims; even though they act only on the thin edge of the rims.
It will make a great rider; that relatively relaxed geometry makes for a very comfortable ride.
Very nice set of handlebars too, that look maybe earlier than the period you're thinking of, but hard to tell really from the photos.
 

Yelbom15

'Lil Knee Scuffer
@dnc1 Thank you for the kind reply and information. I’ve ridden it for a couple minutes and you couldn’t be more correct on the comfort. This bike may see a century ride!

I was wondering if it would be brake pivot point because aren’t all brake pivot points located on the down tube? I marked where the holes are located which are
the top tube only.

It’s an odd Automoto frame without a doubt. No preexisting holes for a head badge and the reverse seat collar lug isn’t found on this era frame.

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dnc1

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
Apologies,
I thought the 5th (from top) photo in your first post showed holes in the top and down tubes, but I think they may be just the lug cut-outs.

Have you considered that it may not be 'Automoto' at all, but possibly some (as yet) unknown manufacturer?
The fork crown is also different to contemporary 'Automoto' designs.
Other manufacturers could have used the 'trefle' lug cutouts design.
I'm thinking of how 'Martelly' track bikes are mistaken for 'Colnago'; and 'Contini' for 'Cinelli ' - in both examples they use very similar logos.

If you think it's similar to period 'Bianchi' design, and possibly Italian you could check out the bottom bracket threads to see if they are Italian or French threaded.
 
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dnc1

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
'Mosca' is not too uncommon surname in the French, Swiss, Italian alpine regions.
Apparently there is/was an old bicycle shop of that name in Grenoble, France.
Also 'Cicli Mosca' is a shop in Mariano Comense in the Como region.
Might be worth further exploration.
 

Yelbom15

'Lil Knee Scuffer
I’ll have to keep doing some research. I came across an Automoto frame but with Favor as the brand for it’s build.

I will service the bottom bracket here soon to check threads. That may be the best path for an answer.

Mosca could have potentially been a very small shop that never made it big using Automoto material in hopes of a partnership though I don’t think the French and Italians liked each very much back then. I’m trying my best to figure out the saddle name as well. Starts with an M and then every other letter is brittled and worn.

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juvela

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
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the first thing i would do would be to measure tubing diameters and threading of steerer and shell

the frame exhibits several features suggesting an Italy origin

these include seat lug/seat binder/seat stay treatment

also the pointed ends of the taper tubes

the fixed bottom bracket cup appears it may be a three-dogger; a design strongly suggestive of Italy

as mentioned above, there were other makers who made use of the clover leaf symbol

have little knowledge of this era but know that in the post-WWII time there were several makers other then Automoto who produced bicycles bearing the Automoto name...

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the design of the machine's chainset appears it might be one widely employed in France for a good three decades or so

in this design the drive side arm has a threaded flange onto which the chainwheel threads. the chainwheel is in turn secured with a threaded lockring similar to the ones employed on adjustable bottom bracket cups and track hubs

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Yelbom15

'Lil Knee Scuffer
I’ve had a lot of people wondering what this is. Even a very well known user based in France on the forum ‘Tonton Velo’ states it’s an Automoto after going back and forth with him for a couple months.

The model I own would have not been that of a “racing breed” such as their Course or Tour de France models. It was more of their city bike which at some point from the 1920s/30s to now, someone converted as a “path racer”.

Though, I’m still skeptical on the bike being an Automoto. I’ve been meaning to find the time to take measurements and look at threads and so forth! The bottom bracket is stamped ‘B.S’ which I couldn’t find anything on besides BSA which I doubt that implies.

It rides so well that my love for the bike overpowers my curiosity towards it’s origins.
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