dave the wave
I live for the CABE
sell it on ebay
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blackhawk??
- Thread starter walter branche
- Start date
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Adamtinkerer
Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe
I consulted the Elgin/JC Higgins
/Hawthorne book, and I'd say late 37-38 Robin w/a replacement tank and crank. While I've seen Elgins with sweetheart sprockets, they're smaller and different looking. That one looks like a Schwinn. I wouldn't be surprised if theres an AS & Co. on it. I've also seen a couple Elgins w/a Shelby/Schwinn Cycleplane style sprocket, like this later 30s Oriole I recently bought.
Also, the earlier Robins are shown with straight upper rear frame stays, and the fall 37 and later show slightly curved stays as on this bike. ~Adam
/Hawthorne book, and I'd say late 37-38 Robin w/a replacement tank and crank. While I've seen Elgins with sweetheart sprockets, they're smaller and different looking. That one looks like a Schwinn. I wouldn't be surprised if theres an AS & Co. on it. I've also seen a couple Elgins w/a Shelby/Schwinn Cycleplane style sprocket, like this later 30s Oriole I recently bought.
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Whether or not Walter?s bike started life as a Robin or with the Blackhawk tank the frame is identical to an Early Robin. In addition the ?A? serial number dates the frame as 1936 Westfield production.
The reason the seat stays appear more curved than the catalog illustration is that the photo is a ? view. The early robin stays have a slight curve when viewed from the side and a more pronounced curve if you view them from the front or rear (check out the catalog illustration for the Robin for spring-summer 1937.
The significant difference between the early and late Robin frames is that the junction point of the top tube and seat stays was raised several inches in mid-late 1937 as the original design overstressed the un-braced upper portion of the seat tube causing bending and eventual failure.
The later Robin frames appear to be the same as the Westfield built Sears Oriole frame, the difference there being the addition of a lower top tube on the Oriole.
The other difference between early and late is that early Robin frames do not have dropout ears as they were meant to use a pencil side stand instead of a drop stand. Late Robin frames sprouted ears (even though they weren?t used) probably because once there were no differences save the lower top tube it was easier to build the two frames otherwise identically.
This also brings up something to note about the Oriole you purchased off eBay.
The Curved tube Oriole frame is a rather uncommon bike especially so considering it was a middle line bread and butter Sears bike. The bike was offered over four catalogs with little change outside of accessories and paint colors.
But... Your bike is a maverick built by Murray Ohio rather than Westfield. A few months back the same frame variation appeared on eBay. The pictures were terrible and at the time I thought someone had welded two bikes together. Then your bike turned up. It is only the second I have ever seen and I was blown away that Murray had gone to such lengths to suck up to Sears and offer a copy of the Westfield bike. The give away is the manufactured head tube and the wishbone seat stays, both of which are Murray production hallmarks. The fork is also a distinctive MO item. The recent appearance of Murray Orioles and possibly Monark Elgin Moto-balloons (see Ratrodbikes for that one) has really surprised me.
I suspect your Oriole has a serial number more in keeping with MO bikes rather than Westfield bikes and I would be very interested in knowing how the bike is stamped if you would be willing to share.
Thanks,
Phil Marshall
The reason the seat stays appear more curved than the catalog illustration is that the photo is a ? view. The early robin stays have a slight curve when viewed from the side and a more pronounced curve if you view them from the front or rear (check out the catalog illustration for the Robin for spring-summer 1937.
The significant difference between the early and late Robin frames is that the junction point of the top tube and seat stays was raised several inches in mid-late 1937 as the original design overstressed the un-braced upper portion of the seat tube causing bending and eventual failure.
The later Robin frames appear to be the same as the Westfield built Sears Oriole frame, the difference there being the addition of a lower top tube on the Oriole.
The other difference between early and late is that early Robin frames do not have dropout ears as they were meant to use a pencil side stand instead of a drop stand. Late Robin frames sprouted ears (even though they weren?t used) probably because once there were no differences save the lower top tube it was easier to build the two frames otherwise identically.
This also brings up something to note about the Oriole you purchased off eBay.
The Curved tube Oriole frame is a rather uncommon bike especially so considering it was a middle line bread and butter Sears bike. The bike was offered over four catalogs with little change outside of accessories and paint colors.
But... Your bike is a maverick built by Murray Ohio rather than Westfield. A few months back the same frame variation appeared on eBay. The pictures were terrible and at the time I thought someone had welded two bikes together. Then your bike turned up. It is only the second I have ever seen and I was blown away that Murray had gone to such lengths to suck up to Sears and offer a copy of the Westfield bike. The give away is the manufactured head tube and the wishbone seat stays, both of which are Murray production hallmarks. The fork is also a distinctive MO item. The recent appearance of Murray Orioles and possibly Monark Elgin Moto-balloons (see Ratrodbikes for that one) has really surprised me.
I suspect your Oriole has a serial number more in keeping with MO bikes rather than Westfield bikes and I would be very interested in knowing how the bike is stamped if you would be willing to share.
Thanks,
Phil Marshall
Adamtinkerer
Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe
"I suspect your Oriole has a serial number more in keeping with MO bikes rather than Westfield bikes and I would be very interested in knowing how the bike is stamped if you would be willing to share." Good eye, Phil! I'd always associated the curved seat post bikes with Murray, but a quick scan of the Elgin book, and I realized you are correct, sir! I dashed to the basement to investigate. the crank hanger is stamped S62081, very close to the bottom tube. The digits are unevenly spaced, and aren't in a straight line. they look like they were all from the same stamp set though. Perhaps these are rare due to durability problems. This frame has the top tube brazed all the way round, and one side where the second tube meets the bottom tube. Have you seen any original Elgins with this sprocket? I think the rear fender is a replacement, as it has red pinstripes. The catalog lists black with ivory accents, as are on the frame. It does have flat riveted braces, and is a gothic peaked fender as per the catalog. Ah, the tangled web we must unweave to determine what was original!! ~Adam
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