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Chain Ring Identification

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Freqman1

Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline
Can I get confirmation on Westfield built? I'm guessing this bike to be 1899 or so--looks fixed gear. V/r Shawn
 

Ricker

Finally riding a big boys bike
I've always thought that this chainring is a 2nd generation of the Keim sun chainring. It is a single plane (not machined in the "spoke" area) and easier to make without the cutouts therefore ABC. Just my thoughts-

Rick
 

Freqman1

Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline
I've always thought that this chainring is a 2nd generation of the Keim sun chainring. It is a single plane (not machined in the "spoke" area) and easier to make without the cutouts therefore ABC. Just my thoughts-

Rick
Thanks Rick can you help me understand the ABC/Pope connection a little better? I see on Ken's serial number list it has 1895-99 as Pope, 1900-03 as ABC, and 1904-08 as Pope Mfg Co. Was ABC a consortium that Pope joined and then broke with or did the company actually change hands? Question for @MrColumbia what do the 1900-03 catalogs say on the cover? Pope? ABC? If anyone has them I'd like to see images and cat specifications for 1898- Model 45, 1899-Model 57, 1900-Model 63, and 1901-Model 72. Thanks, Shawn
 

Ricker

Finally riding a big boys bike
Shawn, my knowledge is limited relative to many people on this forum. I tend to generalize the history of Pope and ABC. I like to think that while history paints him as a pioneer - and standardized threads are definitely a big help - I also think he was ruthless and used lawyers to absorb so many manufacturers, so he was a bully. I think that he threatened manufacturers until they joined him and sued them if they didn't. Since the bicycle was in decline and motors on the rise it was probably easy to absorb companies. Once he swallowed a company he just used the name or some other identifiable trait of the previous company. I think we all probably think that way about him (another generalization and assumption). I think that Keim was absorbed by Pope and your chainring was one of those interesting traits that he kept. I also question if that chainring was on your bike originally. Your frame could very well be early and the chainring just 5 years later. I'm just guessing here- Keim made frames for the jobbers so I would think he would be a target for Pope. I have two Keim frames and one of them has dropouts(rear fork ends) that seem to be a mix of Keim & Pope. The frame that I think is earlier has nicer dropouts than the other but they both have the same unique axle adjuster. The later frame also has the patented stamp on the BB shell but it says apr 25 9(?)3. the earlier one does not have this stamp. They also both have the Keim sun BB & chainring setup.

Sorry that was wordy and a bit of a divergence but I wanted to let you know why I was thinking that about your ring. That is one of my favorites and I thought about jumping on that bike when I saw it but I need to save space for some of my grail bikes if I can find them;)

Rick
 

Freqman1

Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline
Shawn, my knowledge is limited relative to many people on this forum. I tend to generalize the history of Pope and ABC. I like to think that while history paints him as a pioneer - and standardized threads are definitely a big help - I also think he was ruthless and used lawyers to absorb so many manufacturers, so he was a bully. I think that he threatened manufacturers until they joined him and sued them if they didn't. Since the bicycle was in decline and motors on the rise it was probably easy to absorb companies. Once he swallowed a company he just used the name or some other identifiable trait of the previous company. I think we all probably think that way about him (another generalization and assumption). I think that Keim was absorbed by Pope and your chainring was one of those interesting traits that he kept. I also question if that chainring was on your bike originally. Your frame could very well be early and the chainring just 5 years later. I'm just guessing here- Keim made frames for the jobbers so I would think he would be a target for Pope. I have two Keim frames and one of them has dropouts(rear fork ends) that seem to be a mix of Keim & Pope. The frame that I think is earlier has nicer dropouts than the other but they both have the same unique axle adjuster. The later frame also has the patented stamp on the BB shell but it says apr 25 9(?)3. the earlier one does not have this stamp. They also both have the Keim sun BB & chainring setup.

Sorry that was wordy and a bit of a divergence but I wanted to let you know why I was thinking that about your ring. That is one of my favorites and I thought about jumping on that bike when I saw it but I need to save space for some of my grail bikes if I can find them;)

Rick
Rick, Thanks for the reply. I originally bought this bike because of the badge and the Terre Haute connection. I realized pretty quick the badge did not originate on this bike. I'll put the badge in my collection and have bought another badge that I'll build this bike around. It seems the other bikes fund with this chainring are Hawthornes but this one obviously didn't have a Hawthorne badge. I'm probably going to dump way too much money into this but I have a vision for what I want and hopefully will wind up with a cool piece. V/r Shawn
 

MrColumbia

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
Columbia catalogs by year;
1900 cover
1.jpg

1900 inside page

3.jpg
 

Ricker

Finally riding a big boys bike
Hi Shawn- I want to edit my earlier post for posterity in the cabe. I am wrong about the chainring being later. I know I have seen this in early literature, I think 1898 or 1899 but I haven't been able to find it again. I did find info about Keim which I was also wrong about:( Keim sold to a corporation which became Keim Mills around 1906 and that then sold to Henry Ford around 1911.

Rick
 
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