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Cleveland Welding S/N Project...See Page 58 Post 576 for chart
- Thread starter AntonyR
- Start date
#eBayPartner Most Recent BUY IT NOW Items Listed on eBay
As Antony states, the bike on eBay carries all the hallmarks of a prewar frame, minus the drop stand ears.
Some CWC products are clearly prewar and others are obviously postwar. This bike falls into the grey area between pre and postwar. The only CWC bicycles without drop stand ears that are clearly prewar are the ?All American? models that were mainly sold by Montgomery Ward.
The ?Three Gill? frame was one of the most popular designs made by CWC and variations of the style were produced before and after the war. There are several changes that were made after the war that will define a frame as not possibly being made before or during the war. These include the deep curve down tube, the seat post clamp with an annular ring, and stamped, non-tubular rear fender bridges.
The final frontier for dating 3-Gills is discovering when CWC removed the drop stand ears from the rear dropouts. It may have been a change made in 1942 or it may have happened when bicycle production resumed after WWII.
At this point I am inclined to believe that the style of frame on the eBay bike may have spanned pre and postwar production and could be dated between 1942 and perhaps 1947.
The eBay bike has a Morrow coaster brake stamped P2 which equates to the second quarter of 1946. As components wear out and are often changed, dating a bicycle by the hub is not definitive. Never the less, the hub sways me toward dating the bike as mid to late 1946.
Two other frames to look at are Antony?s black 3-Gill and the 3-Gill of Thaibuddie. Antony?s frame is identical but has the fork with the pinch crown. Thaibuddie?s Mount Tam mountain bike has the same frame and fork as the eBay bike.
The black 3-gill is numbered E51122. We should be able to get Thaibuddie?s number to compare. Anyone care to query the eBay seller for a number?
As a side note, I am skeptical of the ?original paint? on the eBay bike as it looks like CWC pattern darts are ghosting through the simpler wedge darts on the fenders.
Some CWC products are clearly prewar and others are obviously postwar. This bike falls into the grey area between pre and postwar. The only CWC bicycles without drop stand ears that are clearly prewar are the ?All American? models that were mainly sold by Montgomery Ward.
The ?Three Gill? frame was one of the most popular designs made by CWC and variations of the style were produced before and after the war. There are several changes that were made after the war that will define a frame as not possibly being made before or during the war. These include the deep curve down tube, the seat post clamp with an annular ring, and stamped, non-tubular rear fender bridges.
The final frontier for dating 3-Gills is discovering when CWC removed the drop stand ears from the rear dropouts. It may have been a change made in 1942 or it may have happened when bicycle production resumed after WWII.
At this point I am inclined to believe that the style of frame on the eBay bike may have spanned pre and postwar production and could be dated between 1942 and perhaps 1947.
The eBay bike has a Morrow coaster brake stamped P2 which equates to the second quarter of 1946. As components wear out and are often changed, dating a bicycle by the hub is not definitive. Never the less, the hub sways me toward dating the bike as mid to late 1946.
Two other frames to look at are Antony?s black 3-Gill and the 3-Gill of Thaibuddie. Antony?s frame is identical but has the fork with the pinch crown. Thaibuddie?s Mount Tam mountain bike has the same frame and fork as the eBay bike.
The black 3-gill is numbered E51122. We should be able to get Thaibuddie?s number to compare. Anyone care to query the eBay seller for a number?
As a side note, I am skeptical of the ?original paint? on the eBay bike as it looks like CWC pattern darts are ghosting through the simpler wedge darts on the fenders.
Hi Dave,
E86268 53
Thanks for the CWC detail photos and serial number. Your bike has all the features associated with late forties early fifties frames. It is possible that the 53 in the serial number relates to the year. I don’t have enough postwar serial numbers to say one way or the other at this point. If you have a chance, please post a picture of the entire frame as I can’t tell if it is a 3-Gill or straight-bar from the details.
What I have so far for postwar numbers is as follows, grouped chronologically by features.
Antony’s orange 3-Gill with pinch crown fork, drop ears, tubular fender bridges, shallow curve downtube (1942?)
Antony’s black 3-Gill with pinch crown fork,no drop ears (1942?-1946?)
3-Gill frames, as above but with standard forged fork. (1946?)
3-Gill, Deep curve down tube
3-Gill, Deep curve down tube, Seat clamp w/ annular ring
Rear drops with notch for fender brace, Stamped non-tubular fender bridges
Forward dropouts, flat chain stays
Coupled with the data I have from prewar frames, my sense is that there are several strings of serial numbers beginning with a letter followed by five numbers that progress alpha-numerically. It appears that more than one of these chains was being used simultaneously at several points in time.
Without going deeper into speculation I’ll sign-off on the topic for now.
Phil
E86268 53
Thanks for the CWC detail photos and serial number. Your bike has all the features associated with late forties early fifties frames. It is possible that the 53 in the serial number relates to the year. I don’t have enough postwar serial numbers to say one way or the other at this point. If you have a chance, please post a picture of the entire frame as I can’t tell if it is a 3-Gill or straight-bar from the details.
What I have so far for postwar numbers is as follows, grouped chronologically by features.
Antony’s orange 3-Gill with pinch crown fork, drop ears, tubular fender bridges, shallow curve downtube (1942?)
K73395
Antony’s black 3-Gill with pinch crown fork,no drop ears (1942?-1946?)
E51122
3-Gill frames, as above but with standard forged fork. (1946?)
F52225 (eBay offering, 2005)
Thaibuddie
eBay w/Morrow hub (1946?)
3-Gill, Deep curve down tube
A95159
3-Gill, Deep curve down tube, Seat clamp w/ annular ring
F64197
Rear drops with notch for fender brace, Stamped non-tubular fender bridges
B45580 ACw
B50914 588
E86268 53
G 46436
Forward dropouts, flat chain stays
J48747
Coupled with the data I have from prewar frames, my sense is that there are several strings of serial numbers beginning with a letter followed by five numbers that progress alpha-numerically. It appears that more than one of these chains was being used simultaneously at several points in time.
Without going deeper into speculation I’ll sign-off on the topic for now.
Phil
AntonyR
Wore out three sets of tires already!
Lord, I can't find any rhyme or reason in the S/N system they used back then. The letter designation just seems to be sort of random. Maybe there is more to the numbers that designate date(?) Ya think that it is a cipher, to throw off the enemy back in WWII? Any code-breakers out there wanna give it a shot?
One more thing for postwar CWC collectors:
For those who haven?t found it yet, Google has a search feature available for Patents. Go to Google more, the even more.
While patent dates can be useful for generally dating bicycles and components, the object of the patent may be on the market in some form before that date or may not reach the public until much later. In many cases patents were written and approved for objects and devices that never reached the market (the CWC dashboard and the CWC hydraulic coaster brake)
Phil
For those who haven?t found it yet, Google has a search feature available for Patents. Go to Google more, the even more.
While patent dates can be useful for generally dating bicycles and components, the object of the patent may be on the market in some form before that date or may not reach the public until much later. In many cases patents were written and approved for objects and devices that never reached the market (the CWC dashboard and the CWC hydraulic coaster brake)
Phil
L
Langsmer
Guest
Here is my Shapleigh's Special. Note that the handlebars and seat aren't original (The bike is my daily rider so I took them off and stored the because they were not comfortable). In case it isn't to clear in the pictures, the fender braces are tubular and it has a dogleg crank. The serial is B24324.
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ColsonTwinbar
Finally riding a big boys bike
so here are some bikes with serial number I will posting later, along with more detailed pictures.
The two that are build up are either 1935 or 1936 the blue one is 26" with a 17" seatmast which is kind of interesting, the one in the back has a 19".
the frame is 1939 and was black with red darts and white pinstripes.
The two that are build up are either 1935 or 1936 the blue one is 26" with a 17" seatmast which is kind of interesting, the one in the back has a 19".
the frame is 1939 and was black with red darts and white pinstripes.
37fleetwood
Riding a '37 Fleetwood
Ok, here's one for you. I don't know if you have looked at the other post, but here is Godzilla My Rat Rod Bike project. the bike came to me as two halves of a tandem broken by my brother and I when we were young. after I got it I welded the two pieces together and Godzilla was born. I have had this bike like this for just over 10 years and recently decided it would be a great Rat Rod candidate. this bike was originally built by my uncle who used to build antique cars for a living and was made from an old boys front and an old girls rear. I have figured out that the front is a CWC of some sort and the rear was a prewar Colson girls bike. what I'm trying to do is figure out what year the front half is and possibly find a tank for it. I have some photos for you to look at, and I have total confidence that you can figure out this puzzle!
Here's Godzilla!
here's what I'm assuming to be the actual serial number (C22358)
then there are two more sets of numbers
the next one is (LACO K1070)
the final number is (L253-47)
thanx
Scott
Here's Godzilla!
here's what I'm assuming to be the actual serial number (C22358)
then there are two more sets of numbers
the next one is (LACO K1070)
the final number is (L253-47)
thanx
Scott
Hi Scott,
I’ve been following the Ratrod posts and without looking closer I had assumed the front end was Huffman due to the configuration of the top tubes. With half the bike missing several of the manufacturing clues are also gone.
I went back and looked at the pre-paint photos and then overlayed a postwar 3-gill frame on your photo.
I agree that the details of the front half of your bike look like CWC with the exception of the tank aperture. I don’t believe CWC produced a frame with that configuration either pre or postwar.
CWC introduced the deep curve down tube (which matches your bike) postwar so that eliminates all the prewar frame styles. The seat clamp looks like the prewar style which was continued for a while postwar. The combination of those two features would equate to early postwar production provided it is CWC.
When I overlayed a postwar CWC 3-gill frame the two frames line up pretty well minus the lower top tube. The two frame styles CWC produced in the 40’s and early 50’s were 3-Gills like Langsmer’s bike and straight-bars like Wave1960’s bike. There isn’t enough resolution for me to tell but could the rear end of the lower top tube have been repositioned and rewelded when the two frames were joined?
The serial number looks like a CWC stamping. So far, all the “C” numbers collected have been on frames from the late 1937-1938 period. While a “C” postwar number has yet to turn up, A, B, E, F, G, and J have been logged from postwar frames so I wouldn’t be surprised to find a postwar C.
The 253 47 looks similar to other CWC stampings but these secondary numbers follow so many different patterns that no single meaning works across the boards.
The third set of numbers may be some sort of post purchase stamping like a police registration.
Anyway, in summation, the front end does look like CWC, probably 46-48 or so. The lower top tube placement does not look CWC so maybe it was reconfigured. If it was reconfigured you would have to change it back to fit a CWC tank. If you have access to a 3-Gill tank, check to se if it fits everywhere but at the lower rear. If you need to outsource for a tank to match the frame the ones that come to mind are; prewar Huffman, some pre and postwar Snyder tanks, prewar Murray Elgins, and JCH,
Tank or no, it’s a cool bike; I’ll add it to the CWC serial list in the slightly modified category. (The poor donor Colson lost its number in the process!)
Thanks for all the work on the site and good luck in the final Ratrod voting.
And thanks to Langsmer, Wave1960, and ColsonTwinbar for the additions to the CWC list.
Phil
I’ve been following the Ratrod posts and without looking closer I had assumed the front end was Huffman due to the configuration of the top tubes. With half the bike missing several of the manufacturing clues are also gone.
I went back and looked at the pre-paint photos and then overlayed a postwar 3-gill frame on your photo.
I agree that the details of the front half of your bike look like CWC with the exception of the tank aperture. I don’t believe CWC produced a frame with that configuration either pre or postwar.
CWC introduced the deep curve down tube (which matches your bike) postwar so that eliminates all the prewar frame styles. The seat clamp looks like the prewar style which was continued for a while postwar. The combination of those two features would equate to early postwar production provided it is CWC.
When I overlayed a postwar CWC 3-gill frame the two frames line up pretty well minus the lower top tube. The two frame styles CWC produced in the 40’s and early 50’s were 3-Gills like Langsmer’s bike and straight-bars like Wave1960’s bike. There isn’t enough resolution for me to tell but could the rear end of the lower top tube have been repositioned and rewelded when the two frames were joined?
The serial number looks like a CWC stamping. So far, all the “C” numbers collected have been on frames from the late 1937-1938 period. While a “C” postwar number has yet to turn up, A, B, E, F, G, and J have been logged from postwar frames so I wouldn’t be surprised to find a postwar C.
The 253 47 looks similar to other CWC stampings but these secondary numbers follow so many different patterns that no single meaning works across the boards.
The third set of numbers may be some sort of post purchase stamping like a police registration.
Anyway, in summation, the front end does look like CWC, probably 46-48 or so. The lower top tube placement does not look CWC so maybe it was reconfigured. If it was reconfigured you would have to change it back to fit a CWC tank. If you have access to a 3-Gill tank, check to se if it fits everywhere but at the lower rear. If you need to outsource for a tank to match the frame the ones that come to mind are; prewar Huffman, some pre and postwar Snyder tanks, prewar Murray Elgins, and JCH,
Tank or no, it’s a cool bike; I’ll add it to the CWC serial list in the slightly modified category. (The poor donor Colson lost its number in the process!)
Thanks for all the work on the site and good luck in the final Ratrod voting.
And thanks to Langsmer, Wave1960, and ColsonTwinbar for the additions to the CWC list.
Phil
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