Cleveland Welding S/N Project?

Discussion in 'Classic Balloon Tire Bicycles 1933-1965' started by AntonyR, May 23, 2008.

  1. #1 Posted May 23, 2008

    Wore out three sets of tires already!

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    Since many of us have asked, and many of us has now or maybe had in the past a CWC built Roadmaster, I think it's time to start a List. If a picture/serial number list could be started and updated with new entries including frame characteristics, I think we over time could rebuild a serial number/date table to date pre-AMF Roadmaster. With this, we could possibly be able to date Western Fliers and other private label frames built by CWC. The ultimate goal would be to have this list added to the features box along side the Schwinn numbering link.
     
    #1 AntonyR, May 23, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2008
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  2. #2 Posted May 23, 2008

    Riding a '37 Fleetwood

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    check out my Huffman one in the restoration tips section
    Scott:cool:
     
  3. #3 Posted May 23, 2008

    I live for the CABE

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    As I was replying to the Hawthorne question, a number of posts came in. I would love to see a CWC serial number data base built. I have been working on one for myself for some time and plan to put it up on a CWC website I am working on. I suggest that the best way to build a data base is to include several pictures of a bike, capturing the frame details much like Akikuro did and to photograph the serial number.

    A photograph tells the story much better than just noting the number especially in the case of over-stampings and non alpha-numeric symbols

    Obviously this is not always going to happen but as I have had a lot of people tell me a bike is CWC when it isn?t. I keep spurious numbers out of my data base by only adding numbers I have seen or have photographic proof for.

    Phil
     
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  4. #4 Posted May 23, 2008

    Moderator Staff Member

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    i have for sure a 41 cwc frame I have the paper work for it
     
  5. #5 Posted May 23, 2008

    Wore out three sets of tires already!

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    Phil, since you seem to have the most experience with keeping dates and S/Ns straight, why don't you take charge(or at least be a main contributer) to the proposed CWC Date Table? :)
     
  6. #6 Posted May 23, 2008

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    Thanks guys for the great info. Being new to the hobby this is what really gets the juices going for me...the detective work that needs to be done to find out more about your bike. I get a better appreciation for it and maybe think twice about doing a full restore on it....
     
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  7. #7 Posted May 23, 2008

    I live for the CABE

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    Thanks, I'd be happy to take the project on. I'll try to put some things together to build a framework for the project and post here early next week. (I'll have to stop answering questions for a few days and focus!) If anyone else has thoughts please post so we can get a good start.

    Phil
     
  8. #8 Posted Jun 3, 2008

    I live for the CABE

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    Hi, I just wanted to check in and let everyone know I have been working on text and graphics for the Cleveland Welding serial number project. I am getting close to the point where I can upload some of this material, probably by late this week or early next week.

    I have created a chart to document Cleveland Welding serial numbers along with other pertinent information about each of the bicycles listed. I have also prepared text and graphics that divide prewar CWC production into groups based on frame type.

    In the mean time if anyone would like to add their bicycles and serial numbers to this list I suggest the following:

    Photograph the bicycle and/or frame from several points.

    • 1. A clear photograph of the bicycle from both the drive and off sides

    • 2. A photograph of the bottom of the crank hanger showing any and all serial numbers or other marks. Include enough of the bicycle to show which direction, front to back, the numbers read. Also note your reading of the numbers and symbols; they are often hard to read even in a good photograph.

    • 3. Detail photographs of the frame at junctures (in cases where these areas are not clear in the overall photographs.

    • 4. Photographs of the fork, sheet metal and accessories in cases where the originality of these items is a question.

    Numbers 1 and 2 are the most important to accurately build a useful list of CWC serial numbers. Generally a clear photograph of the bicycle will make it possible to relate the model and year of the bicycle to the serial number. This will also make it less likely that non CWC bicycles will slip into the data base.

    Again, in an effort to build the best data base possible, I am requesting that legible photographs of the crank hanger are part of the listing process (This means I have a lot of camera work ahead of me). I have seen many CWC bicycles with several numbers and symbols on the underside of the crank hanger. Along with the serial numbers, charting the ancillary marks may lead to further understanding about CWC production.

    I won?t list bicycles without a photograph of the bike. I will start the list with reported numbers to get it going but those numbers will be moved to a secondary list if photographic representation isn?t provided over time.

    As I have a list of my serial numbers I will publish those first. I will add number as I receive them and update the list periodically. I have a column for ownership information if you would like that to be known publicly.

    If you would like to be part of the list but wish to remain anonymous, you can send me information privately and I will only print the portion of that information you are ok with. I will extend this offer to the degree that, with documentation, I am willing to add bicycles to the list, sequentially placed, with blanked numbers if the owner so wishes.

    The last point I will make for now is that my knowledge primarily revolves around prewar models, I have as much to learn about post war production as most anyone else. With documentation I will list any CWC-AMF bicycle serial number up to circa 1970 with the idea that patterns will arise to make dating postwar production possible.

    Phil Marshall
     
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  9. #9 Posted Jun 3, 2008

    Wore out three sets of tires already!

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    Address

    Phil, where would you like the submissions sent?
     
  10. #10 Posted Jun 3, 2008

    I live for the CABE

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    Thanks Antony,

    You can post submissions to this thread or email them directly to me at vbephil@comcast.net

    (I'm assuming at this point that entries will trickle in and not overwhelm the CABE).

    Also, if you send information directly to me, please be sure to note if any of the information is meant to remain private.

    Phil
     
  11. #11 Posted Jun 3, 2008

    I live for the CABE

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    Phil, I have the 37 Speed-badged bike noted elsewhere on these boards that you were so kind to give me info on. Do I still need to send you photos and info or can you get it off that post? Let me know...
     
  12. #12 Posted Jun 4, 2008

    I live for the CABE

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    Hi David,

    The photos of the CWC Speed work fine for the general frame and detail photos, Please post or forward a photo of the underside of the crank hanger with the serial number (X12578) so I can add it to the serial number list.

    Thanks, Phil
     
  13. #13 Posted Jun 4, 2008

    I live for the CABE

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    Probably can't get to it for a while but I will make a note of it...
     
  14. #14 Posted Jun 4, 2008

    Wore out three sets of tires already!

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    YGM- Pics

    Ok Phil, I sent you plenty of pics of both the r.m. and the WF. Let me know if it came through all right, and if there's any close-ups or angles that I should add.
     
  15. #15 Posted Jun 15, 2008

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    Hiawatha

    I have a Hiawatha (Cleveland welding) bike that is identical to the roadmaster frames and forks (springer) the serial numbers are followed with a gap and the "53". the drop outs have adjusters and it does not have a skip tooth. 2 speed bendix rear hub (aviator). I am not sure if these items are all original and I know that pics would help. Just thought the offset "53" may be a clue.
     
  16. #16 Posted Jun 20, 2008

    Wore out three sets of tires already!

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    Here are 2 CWC frames with serial #'s. I'm pretty sure the girls is post war maybe 50's but not sure about the boys.

    My best read on the girls is B50914__588.
    My best read on the boys is F64197.

    P1010019-1.jpg
    CWCB50914-1.jpg
    P1010047-1.jpg
    P1010050-1.jpg
     
  17. #17 Posted Jun 20, 2008

    Wore out three sets of tires already!

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    girls looks late postwar, '49-50 ish, boys looks early postwar, or late prewar- seat/rear carrier/tank not original to that bike.
     
  18. #18 Posted Jun 20, 2008

    I live for the CABE

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    It?s great to see such a response for the call for serial numbers.
    I'll add these to the growing list.

    I believe both bikes posted above are postwar as per my reasons below.

    I?m posting a couple of the pictures I have taken of my CWCs for the serial number project to see how they look. If these work I have a few more ready to upload and then it?s back to the garage for more photos. I also have about 40 prewar serial numbers charted but I am still formatting that information so it will post legibly.

    I also took the picture of my one postwar frame and ghosted the front of a prewar 3-gill over the top. This shows the most obvious change, the curvature of the down-tube

    Regarding pre and post war differences, I don?t have literature that definitively charts when changes were introduced. By the time CWC was producing Luxury Liners it appears that most of the postwar changes had been made. Whether or not the very first postwar bicycles incorporated any or all of these differences is one of the areas I hope will become clear as this serial number project develops.

    Here are some notes and my opinions at this point on prewar vs. postwar.

    Most of the prewar frame styles were not reintroduced when postwar bicycle production resumed.

    The boy?s 3-Gill style frame and the standard girls frame both survived WWII but a number of changes were made. Again, I don?t know if all these changes were incorporated in the first postwar production or gradually phased in.

    Antony has noted previously, and I agree, that the very first postwar 3-Gills may be the frames that appear to be identical to prewar models but do not have drop-out ears. Another distinguishing feature of bikes from this (1942?-1946?) period is the appearance of the forged fork with the pinch crown. (Looks sort of early Dayton crossed with Schwinn forged)

    The following frame changes were all introduced after the war.

    On the boy?s 3-Gill, the postwar model's down-tube curve is deeper and more pronounced (like a prewar girl?s frame.)

    The seat clamp was redesigned and has an annular rib pressed into the surface.

    The rear dropouts were changed, still rear facing they do not have drop stand ears and incorporate fender brace and chain guard mounting holes.

    The rear fender bridges on the frame are open stampings rather than tubular, and contoured to fit the fender.

    As for sheet metal changes, the flush side and comet impressed tanks were both available pre and post war. When equipped with horn buttons early tanks use the larger nickel size delta horn button mounted in a stepped depression on the left side of the tank. Later tanks use the small 1/4? button protruding through a hole on the right side of the tank.

    I don?t know when Delta came out with the smaller button or when CWC incorporated it.
    Any Delta experts have info on this?

    The earlier chain-guards gave way to a revision of the 1941 guard with a new mount.

    I believe the stamped steel CWC rack with the chevrons is postwar only although I have seen them mounted on prewar bikes. I assume added later, maybe I?m wrong?

    More stuff for discussion.

    Enjoy

    Phil

    Prewar 3-gill, serial number WF 14 K24110 58


    2596166620_7f2afe9c71_b-1.jpg

    Postwar 3-Gill, serial number B45580 ACW

    2596167718_02dd118a0e_b-1.jpg

    Prewar 3-gill front end ghosted over postwar 3-Gill

    2596159998_18a98732b4_b-1.jpg
     
  19. #19 Posted Jul 10, 2008

    Finally riding a big boys bike

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    More Info

    My Hiawatha w/ 2 speed aviator. Ser # E86268 53. Pics attached
     

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  20. #20 Posted Jul 10, 2008

    Wore out three sets of tires already!

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    Phil take a look at this CWC frame/bike...

    Is this pre or post war? The down tube on this bike -- item #200238268878 on ebay -- is what you described as being pre-war, a gentle curve vs the more pronounced curve, yet does not have rack ears?

    Any thoughts?

    Alan