Confusion/troubleshooting on lacing first rim...

[bairdco]

I appreciate your points and they are certainly are reasonable to an extent. I especially agree with you and others that replacing a vintage rim (whose pattern and patina might be difficult to match) is not always the best way/convenient forward. Although much of my comments here applies to dented rims from impact, I am directing my thoughts on warped rims to simplify things a bit. Certainly dented rims have similar issues with unequal spoke tension.

If my summation is illogical, please feel free to slice and dice I am always open to learning from others and admitting my errors.

Any discussion on this topic remains somewhat subjective about any given rim due to not knowing how warped it is...

But I will start with a hypothetical, moderately warped rim. When (unlaced) it rocks up and down 5mm on opposite sides when placed on a plate glass window - in this example maybe you have straightened a much more warped wheel to this tolerance or it is only warped like this when first unlaced...it doesn't matter for this example as long as it is warped when you begin lacing it up. If you somehow managed to straighten the rim to close to factory specs this particular discussion would be moot.

If the rim is warped, then it will require unequal spoke tension in order to correct that warp. The two portions of the rim that are warped off center will require tighter & looser spokes opposite each other along those two sections than the evenly tensioned spokes opposite each other in the unwarped sections.

This why the wheel is weak and quite potentially dangerous. Spokes need to be propely and equally tensioned with a maximum of 20% variance. If you are not using a tensionometer to first diagnose the problem areas and then later check your completed work, you are guessing about proper and equal tension by "plucking a harp" and/or using supposedly calibrated fingers. Some folks are better than others at this but I doubt new builders. Ithought I was pretty good too until I bought a TM-1 a few years ago - guess what...not even close and wasted a lot of time previously.

Other than the opinions stated on here, I have yet to read any published information that condones using warped rims again except in a riding emergency (bend it against a fencepost to get home, etc.).

Just because it might be able to be done does not mean you should do it - except in warranted cases and so I strongly feel this is bad advice to new and seasoned wheel builders. I do not believe the OP was "up against a fencepost" in finding a good replacement rim.

The chances of an old cruiser wheel taco-ing are pretty slim. Most guys won't even ride off a curb, much less hit a jump or something.

If the rim is egg-shaped or has flat spots, it takes some work to get them straight again, but there's many posts here of people doing it, with no catastrophic failures while riding (again, due to the low-impact style of riding.)

I've built brand new rims up that had small amounts of wobble if laid flat.

My main point is, with old bikes like ours, perfect level, perfect state of true, perfect dish, etc, isn't really necessary. Big ballon tires, slow riding speeds, and the way these bikes are ridden doesn't require absolute perfection. I'm sure we've all seen (or owned,) nice classic bikes with wheels slightly out of true.

For a beginner lacing a wheel for the first time, talking about tensionometers, dish gauges, and possibility of catastrophic failure and paralysis is enough to scare them away.

My advice is based on things I've done successfully, relating to the builder's questions, skill level, etc.

I wouldn't go to a pro road bike forum and suggest hammering on their wheels to beat them into shape before their next race (but most road bike guys have the money to let other people worry about it anyway.)

 

[bikemonkey]

The chances of an old cruiser wheel taco-ing are pretty slim. Most guys won't even ride off a curb, much less hit a jump or something.

If the rim is egg-shaped or has flat spots, it takes some work to get them straight again, but there's many posts here of people doing it, with no catastrophic failures while riding (again, due to the low-impact style of riding.)

I've built brand new rims up that had small amounts of wobble if laid flat.

My main point is, with old bikes like ours, perfect level, perfect state of true, perfect dish, etc, isn't really necessary. Big ballon tires, slow riding speeds, and the way these bikes are ridden doesn't require absolute perfection. I'm sure we've all seen (or owned,) nice classic bikes with wheels slightly out of true.

For a beginner lacing a wheel for the first time, talking about tensionometers, dish gauges, and possibility of catastrophic failure and paralysis is enough to scare them away.

My advice is based on things I've done successfully, relating to the builder's questions, skill level, etc.

I wouldn't go to a pro road bike forum and suggest hammering on their wheels to beat them into shape before their next race (but most road bike guys have the money to let other people worry about it anyway.)

Valid points you are making. Many conditional things when using damaged rims but none were discussed when helping OP early on. In fact, he was given bad advice about missing the cross and ill advised to just grind off the 1/4" of protruding threads.

It was the various points that were made by you in regards to my first advice that I felt required a response. Although we can only surmise OP is using an original rim, it has been painted again so why not just get a good rusty one, clean and paint it, and roll on a happy wheel?

Yes, I have had new rims that were less than optimal and did not tension equally and maybe a couple of new ones that were ultimately unusable right out of the box. Anyone can apply unusual exceptions to a general rule of thumb but it gets tedious quickly.

Last words for me on this thread and then I hope I am outta this discussion, but feel free to carry on.

The poorly tensioned spokes that are left loose in your salvaged wheels at the end will have a tendency to unscrew and loosen the nipples from loading/unloading forces while being ridden and the wheel will get weaker and weaker.

If new wheel builders cannot handle understanding the importance of using the correct tools like a dishing gauge, truing stands, and objectively measuring adequate and equal spoke tension, then maybe they should stay under a shade tree a bit longer and hammer away at their rims. But if they have been properly informed early on, they can learn from others and then judge for themselves how scary it is using the right tools and techniques.

You don't have to have a good spoke wrench, truing stand, dishing tool, or tensionometer to work on wheels. Just like you don't need the right size wrenches to take off that '41 Elgin wheel - just grab those vicegrips or use metric instead of SAE, it's close, right?...

I am not a tool snob - I don't have a shop loaded with extravagant, esoteric tools - but I do have the right tools for the job at hand or I sacrifice a bit to get them as soon as I can. The only people I see preaching loudly against using a tensionometer are the folks that don't own one/know how to use one, and don't appreciate the basic points of good wheelbuilding.



Happy Trails!