Confusion/troubleshooting on lacing first rim...

[bikemonkey]

I can't tell if it's 2 or 3x from the pic with the hub in the way. If it's 2, you'll have to relace it.

If it is 3x, and the wheel is true, you can grind off the tips. That's common practice with any spoked wheel. I've built hundreds of wheels and almost always have to grind down a few spokes. The only time I've had to grind them all down was when I only had spokes that were a little too long.

Using a file will take you a week to grind them all down. Get a drill and a grinding bit. As long as there's enough threads to hold the nipple, it's fine.

As far as the wheel being previously bent, as long as it's not deformed from curb smashing, truing it will take it out without having to go to the extremes in the previous reply. Yes, it's easier to start with a perfectly flat rim, but if you know what you're doing, you can overcome that by truing it.

Also, if the spokes are only protruding on half the rim, you've got that half too tight, and it'll come out with a clown bike sizes hop.

If the spokes are that much too long you will run out of thread before you can tension the wheel - grinding off those spoke threads is absurd. If they are the same length as the originals then they will fit as good as the old ones. Do it right or don't do it.

I beg to differ on using bent rims. Your advice is unfounded and dangerous. I have been building wheels since 1973 and have decades in various bicycle shops. Is it possible to lace up a bent rim and get it close to true? - possibly - depends on the rim. Will the spoke tension be equal if you do so? - No, it will be crazy wrong - if you don't understand how critical that parameter is then you should not be giving advice on wheel building.

Should you do it? - never - unless you somehow straighten the rim first (unlikely) or you just want to use it for display.

If you want to run the risk of riding a weak and dangerous wheel, have at it, but frankly I would not advise others it's ok to do so, especially novice wheel builders. Have you ever seen what happens when a front wheel potato chips? Broken neck - paralysis anyone? Potato chipped rear wheels are perhaps not as dangerous - you will maybe just loose control at the worst possible moment.

Why are bent rims replaced when repairing damaged wheels? If you could use them over and over there would not be much use for new ones, would there? Do it right or don't do it.

 

[bicycle ed]

Hey everyone,

I took on the task of relacing the rear rim of my '39/'41 Elgin with new spokes and nipples. I got the exact length spokes as the originals, and followed a tutorial that was posted on here. "Without the BullShlt. How to lace a 36 Spoke Rim". I followed the tutorial and what I thought the original lacing was exactly. I learned later that the wheels weren't originally interlaced, but I did that because the rim was slightly bent and I wanted to make it as stiff as possible (I know, this is debated). I was able to tension the spokes tight and true the rim just enough where I feel safe.

The problem I am having is that the threading of the spokes is past the nipple, and they are protruding into the tire space. I have searched to find a reason why, and the only thing I found to be a possibility is that the orientation of the rows is inverted (if that makes sense) on mine. In common rims, the holes surrounding the valve stem hole reads: top row, valve hole, lower row and on mine it is lower row, valve hole, upper row. Should I have done the lacing backwards to have the nipples thread on the spokes differently? What are my options? Should I unlace the rim and and lace them up to correspond correctly with the valve hole orientation? Or is there any issue with just filing down the excess threading after the 'bottom' of the nipples?

View attachment 827046

View attachment 827044

If you lace cross three when the original is cross four you will get that extra length in all the spokes...

 

[TR6SC]

Well Alec, now that you can lace and true.....!
Good job with that damaged rim. It looks like it was curb hopped a little too vigorously. If you want to make it better, unlace it and unbend it. Blocks of wood and hammers can get it fairly close. Have you got more paint? Or, you could buy new rims for very cheap. Or, you could spend serious money for rims. Or, you could throw a pair of tires on them and probably not even be able to feel it. If the latter is your choice, look closely for any cracking.

Side notes:
Nipples are usually only threaded for about 7 or 8mm. This is at the outer end. Spokes are usually threaded for about 9mm. Play around with a pair to see how the nipple stops going onto the spoke. Because the nipple is soft, you can force it on too far. Typically you won't get more protrusion than you have because things bottom out.
If you want a more vintage look, go with a 16mm nipple, you have what looks like 12mm.
Again, Nice job!

 

[bicycle ed]

Howdy everyone!

Upon inspecting the photos of the original wheel closer I just realized it is 4x, not 3x. Thank you all for your replies. I fee like a dufous

I did the same thing on my first wheel, I thought they sent me too long spokes at first....

 

[juanitasmith13]

I'm not an Elgin man (or owner); but, balloon tire wheel experience has been 4X... MW tire wheels 3X. 1st pic in post eight, def. shows 3x. It appears tho, maybe, he's off on spacing (start point) when rim was flipped to do 'opposite' side; (post three pic)???

 

[Floyd]

It's all about that 10th spoke when u lace a 36 spoke rim. Put number 10 in wrong hole on hub and u get what u have there

 

[bairdco]

If the spokes are that much too long you will run out of thread before you can tension the wheel - grinding off those spoke threads is absurd. If they are the same length as the originals then they will fit as good as the old ones. Do it right or don't do it.

I beg to differ on using bent rims. Your advice is unfounded and dangerous. I have been building wheels since 1973 and have decades in various bicycle shops. Is it possible to lace up a bent rim and get it close to true? - possibly - depends on the rim. Will the spoke tension be equal if you do so? - No, it will be crazy wrong - if you don't understand how critical that parameter is then you should not be giving advice on wheel building.

Should you do it? - never - unless you somehow straighten the rim first (unlikely) or you just want to use it for display.

If you want to run the risk of riding a weak and dangerous wheel, have at it, but frankly I would not advise others it's ok to do so, especially novice wheel builders. Have you ever seen what happens when a front wheel potato chips? Broken neck - paralysis anyone? Potato chipped rear wheels are perhaps not as dangerous - you will maybe just loose control at the worst possible moment.

Why are bent rims replaced when repairing damaged wheels? If you could use them over and over there would not be much use for new ones, would there? Do it right or don't do it.

If it's really bent and actually damaged, I agree with you. If it's used on a performance bike, I agree with you.

If it's on a 70+ year old bike that's gonna get ridden at 5mph, I don't worry about taco-ing wheels.

I've built wheels since 79. I've taco-d rims on my bmx bikes from abusing them.

I've laced old bent rims, trued them perfectly with correct spoke tension, and never had a problem.

New rims aren't usually an option with old bikes. If you have a stash of NOS prewar rims, let me know.

 

[49autocycledeluxe]

you don't say if you have a truing stand or not, but I recently got one and what a difference it makes. I would have to get that rim more true to be happy. I just built my first wheel and got it right the first time, which makes me an expert. but somehow I was not an expert on the second one and have taken it back apart twice now!!

3rd time is a charm. (I hope)

 

[SKPC]

If you have a rare steel rim,(or not so rare for that matter) and it is bent or dented, it can be straightened and trued with patience!. There is nothing to worry about Tacorama-wise. The only rim I ever "tacod" if that is what you want to call it, was a perfectly tensioned DT swiss MTB rim that was pushed way too hard at a bad time when everything came together to taco it. Junk happens. No one runs an old rim on a performance bike anyway, right? Your wheel is just fine the way it looks....
Way to dive into your wheel project with enthusiasm and bravery. Wheel building is not easy to begin with, and when you have a bent or dented rim, it makes it doubly difficult, so hats off to you. Your wheel looks rideable to me. The hop (high/low) bump in it you can perhaps even take all the way out with even more patience. Ultimately, you could now mark the "dent" spot with a marker, then take the wheel apart and work the rim on a flat surface until straight. I have taken a 2 x 4 and whammed-out dents before on steel rims. Just whack it a few times with the wood block opposite of the dented area when unlaced. You can also place the naked(unlaced) rim up alongside a known perfectly straight wheel and look for the dents or bends, allowing you to locate and remedy them bit by bit. It may be fun for you to do this as it just gives you another wheel build under your belt, along with the satisfaction of bringing something back.... Good job.skpc.
Would you throw this rim away? I did not, and carefully straightened it with patience..runs true now..

 

[bikemonkey]

If it's really bent and actually damaged, I agree with you. If it's used on a performance bike, I agree with you.

If it's on a 70+ year old bike that's gonna get ridden at 5mph, I don't worry about taco-ing wheels.

I've built wheels since 79. I've taco-d rims on my bmx bikes from abusing them.

I've laced old bent rims, trued them perfectly with correct spoke tension, and never had a problem.

New rims aren't usually an option with old bikes. If you have a stash of NOS prewar rims, let me know.

I appreciate your points and they are certainly are reasonable to an extent. I especially agree with you and others that replacing a vintage rim (whose pattern and patina might be difficult to match) is not always the best way/convenient forward. Although much of my comments here applies to dented rims from impact, I am directing my thoughts on warped rims to simplify things a bit. Certainly dented rims have similar issues with unequal spoke tension.

If my summation is illogical, please feel free to slice and dice I am always open to learning from others and admitting my errors.

Any discussion on this topic remains somewhat subjective about any given rim due to not knowing how warped it is...

But I will start with a hypothetical, moderately warped rim. When (unlaced) it rocks up and down 5mm on opposite sides when placed on a plate glass window - in this example maybe you have straightened a much more warped wheel to this tolerance or it is only warped like this when first unlaced...it doesn't matter for this example as long as it is warped when you begin lacing it up. If you somehow managed to straighten the rim to close to factory specs this particular discussion would be moot.

If the rim is warped, then it will require unequal spoke tension in order to correct that warp. The two portions of the rim that are warped off center will require tighter & looser spokes opposite each other along those two sections than the evenly tensioned spokes opposite each other in the unwarped sections.

This why the wheel is weak and quite potentially dangerous. Spokes need to be propely and equally tensioned with a maximum of 20% variance. If you are not using a tensionometer to first diagnose the problem areas and then later check your completed work, you are guessing about proper and equal tension by "plucking a harp" and/or using supposedly calibrated fingers. Some folks are better than others at this but I doubt new builders. Ithought I was pretty good too until I bought a TM-1 a few years ago - guess what...not even close and wasted a lot of time previously.

Other than the opinions stated on here, I have yet to read any published information that condones using warped rims again except in a riding emergency (bend it against a fencepost to get home, etc.).

Just because it might be able to be done does not mean you should do it - except in warranted cases and so I strongly feel this is bad advice to new and seasoned wheel builders. I do not believe the OP was "up against a fencepost" in finding a good replacement rim.