Harley Davidson Head Badge Controversy

Discussion in 'Antique Bicycles Pre-1933' started by 47jchiggins, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. #41 Posted Oct 15, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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    Thanks Shawn. I'm home for a few months.
     
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  2. #42 Posted Nov 23, 2017

    Saint Lactose The Tolerant

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    Am somewhat reluctant to display this next badge in a CABE thread ...

    This badge is the daddy of all reproduced, acid etched H-D badges
    made by Nostalgic Reflections of Veradale, WA.

    It has taken me a week to learn how to drift fotos from my Motorola G3
    to my wife's laptop. Am going to post closeups now, and then step off.

    Tomorrow I will do more 'splainin' ... as for tonight ... I am done - waaay tired.

    Have been in communication with Todd a.k.a. (47jchiggins).
    Will be commenting on his so-called controversial H-D badge.


    PLEASE BE PATIENT AND SAVE YOUR COMMENTS "TIL AFTER I GET
    THIS ENTRY EDITED AND FULLY WRITTEN TOMORROW >>>>> THANK YOU

    ....... patric







    HERE WE GO ...................

    thumbnail h-d 16.jpg
    Number 1 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 15.jpg
    Number 2 ^^^

    thumbnail h-d 13.jpg
    Number 3 ^^^



    thumbnail h-d 12.jpg
    Number 4 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 11.jpg
    Number 5 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 10.jpg
    Number 6 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 09.jpg
    Number 7 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 08.jpg
    Number 8 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 07.jpg
    Number 9 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 04.jpg
    Number 10 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 03.jpg
    Number 11 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 14.jpg
    Number 12 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 01.jpg
    Number 13 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 02.jpg
    Number 14 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 05.jpg
    Number 15 ^^^


    thumbnail h-d 06.jpg
    Number 16 ^^^



    thumbnail H-d.jpg
    Number 17 ^^^

    Todd (47jchiggins) ... thank you for mailing your badge to me.
    There are things that come to light when a badge is in the hand ...
    and not be limited to observation thru a foto.





    s-l1600 h-d.jpg
    Number 18 ^^^


    1920hdbadge h-d.jpg
    Number 19 ^^^

    thumbnail h-d 16.jpg
    This foto is the same as Number 1 at the top.

    I am gonna refer to this particular badge as the Nostalgic-Reflections Mystery H-D Badge.


    ....... For reasons you will put together in Entry #46 of this thread.
     
    #42 hoofhearted, Nov 23, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  3. #43 Posted Nov 24, 2017

    Saint Lactose The Tolerant

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    After having seen AND handled Todd's unusual, rogue H-D badge ...
    I have reached a conclusion that works for me. It is a stamped badge
    ... not acid-etched ... and is authentic.

    The badge shows no evidence of etching-exhaust bubbles around
    magnified edges within the design. The back of the badge shows
    pressure-formed, reverse letters ... subtle, but they are there,

    Sadly, the badge APPEARS to have been futzed-with at some time
    in it's past. There are a bunch of marks of a certain-style in a limited
    debris-field ... and these marks appear to be limited to just one debris-
    field (maybe a little salting elsewhere, but still quite-limited). Then the
    ''tool'' that made the marks is changed-out for a different ''tool'' ... and
    whatever was ''salted'' by the first-tool ... gets salted in adjacent areas
    by tool Number Two ... and so on.


    Whoever did the salting may have been desperate to have the badge
    perceived as authentic ... (I believe this badge is authentic) ... and
    decided to age-flavor the thing.


    A poor stratedgey, even if I can't spell the word.

    The reader can feel free to believe whatever she/he wants to believe ...
    and I am nothing more than an old pirate with a critical eye AND an opinion,
    just like you.

    Please note that this typer has no plans to argue opinions back and forth
    with the reader.


    Did I mention the badge is ''gassing'' ? It gives-off a distinctly-metallic odor,
    often natural to metal that oxidizes over time.

    IMG_4654 H-D TODD.jpg

    IMG_4654 H-D TODD (3).jpg
     
    #43 hoofhearted, Nov 24, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  4. #44 Posted Nov 24, 2017

    Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline

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    Patric,
    Possessing not even a nano-gram of your knowledge on these badges I was unable to reach a conclusion either way after examining this badge. The thing that had me leaning towards not authentic was the hole spacing. Other than that there was nothing either way that led me to believe this badge is not authentic. Regarding the random marks I suggested to Todd that this badge may have been in a tool box or something similar for years and the marks were accumulated over time as tools were thrown in the box. Those are my thoughts for what they are worth. V/r Shawn
     
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  5. #45 Posted Nov 24, 2017

    Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe

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    What size is this badge in comparison to those that have been found on bicycles?
     
  6. #46 Posted Nov 24, 2017

    Saint Lactose The Tolerant

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    Moving forward ... Where Did the Nostalgic Reflections H-D Badge Originate ?

    Maybe 1995, Jerry at N-R fones me with a lead on what he says is an
    OG H-D badge.

    Keep in mind ... in 1995 VERY FEW COLLECTORS had ever laid eyes
    on a H-D badge. Paranoid times they were. The owner of an authentic
    H-D badge would never share images of it with fellow collectors ...
    unless, of course, money was to be made by at least one of them.
    And besides ... What Did One Even Look Like ?

    Why ... look at us here ... right now ... just a-sharin' and feelin' all
    friendly ... kinda like we were all gonna walk to the drugstore in
    Mayberry ... buy ourselves an ice-cream cone .. then go to sit on
    Andy's porch and share bicycle stories.

    Times are different. And I do like this current-period waaay better
    than I enjoyed those mid-90's.

    Back to Jerry at N-R ... Jerry has a gentleman that wants to gather
    and restore as many original H-D bicycles as humanly possibly.
    The gentleman was a retired exec at H-D ... and his plans are to help
    grow their museum and history center.


    After I was offered the Nostalgic-Reflections Mystery H-D Badge ... I was
    asked if I would mind if N-R reproduced a few of them for use by the H-D
    gentleman. Said I wanted the one Jerry located. And I received it. Repop
    'til your heart's content.

    H-D gentleman hires me to ''antique'' the dozen N-R badges he received.
    Said I didn't want money ... looking for H-D Bicycle historical knowledge.
    Got it .. along with some fotos printed using factory-original glass negs.

    I was happy.

    Let's peep some stuff, not necessarily from the H-D Factory but some of
    stuff N-R produced, also.

    thumbnail h-d 18.jpg


    thumbnail h-d 19.jpg

    H-D JERRY MADE.jpg 01.jpg



    Please compare font subtleties in the N-R Badge and the factory literature.

    thumbnail h-d 19.jpg


    thumbnail h-d 04.jpg



    Let's continue our peepin' .......

    s-l1600 h-d.jpg


    s-l500 h-d 4.jpg





    Now somehow, three badges came outta the acid-bath with a very-unique etch ...


    1920hdbadge h-d.jpg Only 3 ... and I got a chance to own them.



    Jerry could not, or ever, replicate these particular badges. One was sold to a collector,
    like ourselves. His badge ended-up at H-D.

    I held on to my textured rarities. Now keep in mind ... it's the mid-90's ... and I had NEVER
    seen any other type of H-D badge. Had no idea that a stamped-copper badge was also out
    there.

    In the meantime ... I gets a call from the owner of Mid-Ohio Harley-Davidson in Springfield, OH ...

    He wants to own the 1917 Motorcyke I'm building. I know it is an original as I bought the
    frame / fork from Shoe3 ... my budz - Phil Scott.

    It had red powdercoat on it -- but very straight ...

    It also had badge, screw-holes that matched the Nostalgic-Reflections Mystery H-D Badge ...
    later on found out the stamped-copper badge would not work .. the Mystery-Badge has holes
    a wee-bit wider-spaced than the stamped-copper specimens.

    Brian .. at Mid-Ohio told me he wanted the ''texture-badge'' ... not the smooth, Mystery-Badge.
    I know I posted a nice foto of this 1917 Motocyke ... just cannot find it within the CABE ...
    and I do not have access to any other computer except for this one that my wife gave me
    permission to use .......

    MORE STUFF ............

    thumbnail three h-d badges.jpg


    Noted some flaws in the mystery-badge ...
    talked with Jerry ... he decided to remove them from the
    art-work that he used to make his repro's.

    thumbnail h-d 08.jpg


    thumbnail h-d 06.jpg

    Nothin' left to say ..................................
     
    #46 hoofhearted, Nov 24, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
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  7. #47 Posted Nov 24, 2017

    Saint Lactose The Tolerant

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    Just when I believed the earliest Davis DAYTONs ...
    (Davis produced bicycles as early as 1892 -- and
    the DAYTON beginning in 1895) were equipped
    with a name badge incorporating a large ''D'' as
    a major part of the design .....

    photo earliest davis dayton badge.jpg
     
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  8. #48 Posted Nov 24, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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    The real deal

    20171123_225223.jpg

    20171123_225323.jpg

    20171123_225315.jpg

    20170401_124215.jpg

    20170401_124109.jpg

    20170401_124221.jpg

    20170401_124244.jpg
     
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  9. #49 Posted Nov 25, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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    From what Patric has suggested and what has been viewed here as original badges; the letters of Harley Davidson were blind embosssed - referring to a method of pressing or stamping an image into metal, creating a three dimensional relief of the letters.
    HD badges.jpg

    Debossing or etching is a simpler technique, a method of depressing or etching the surface. Note; the letters are not raised or relief from the background.
    HD sans Outline 2.jpg

    These three badges were produced from the same DNA...a dembossed technique.
    HD 32 badges .jpg

    .
     
    #49 fordsnake, Nov 25, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  10. #50 Posted Nov 25, 2017

    Saint Lactose The Tolerant

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    My Dear Carlton ... I know that I'm not the only
    CABEr that has missed your presence within
    many, many threads on the forum. Hope you
    will be with us for a long time ... at least thru
    the Winter.

    You Are Appreciated ......

    ....... patric
     
  11. #51 Posted Nov 26, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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    Patric, thank you for the kind words. Depending on my internet connection here in Brazil (I'm learning to adjust to frustration) LOL, I'm here with you guys.
     
  12. #52 Posted Nov 26, 2017

    Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe

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    @hoofhearted Patric man :)
    @47jchiggins Todd man :)
    @Freqman1 Shawn man:)

    Very nice catching up with all of you and sharing dialog over this badge. We can agree to disagree on this and very likely things in the future, it's what keeps the juices flowing, or like Patric would say "makes your socks go up and down", LOL.

    Rock on my Bicycle and Military Brothers.


    Just to clarify the discussions, the badge this thread is about is #1 pictured below.

    Later days and better lays
    Peace,
    Ivo
    20171124_230802.jpg
     
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  13. #53 Posted Nov 26, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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    A big THANKS to all who have contributed to this thread and keeping an open mind. To Patric @hoofhearted, thank you for taking the time to comment and for posting your Mystery HD Badge, it is quite unique and very interesting to say the least. This is a “ Take no Prisoners” forum and my only regret is how I started this thread. The wording I chose came across “snarky” and for that, I apologize. We still have a lot to learn about these bikes and probably just scratching the surface of the information that could be out there. For example, not long ago, I acquired and posted a 1917 HD Bicycle parts list which was part of a Dealer Binder from 1917-1919, ironically, the only item NOT listed on the parts list was the badge.
    Todd
     
    #53 47jchiggins, Nov 26, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
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  14. #54 Posted Nov 26, 2017

    Saint Lactose The Tolerant

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    Good schtuff - Ivo, Todd and all .....

    Am reminded that in order to create an omelette, we have to break
    out the egg beaters.

    And even 'tho the true-reality of those badges (that were discussed)
    may never be known ... I have enjoyed each and everyone's contribution
    to the clarifying and possible de-mystification of those badges that go
    bump in the night.


    ....... patric






    853987-600x600-A  egg.jpg



     
    #54 hoofhearted, Nov 26, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  15. #55 Posted Nov 26, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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  16. #56 Posted Nov 29, 2017

    Saint Lactose The Tolerant

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    These badges were not made by the H-D factory.
    They were made sometime in the 1990's.

    Solid copper ... smooth on backside ... very-deep
    relief.

    Not stamped .. not acid-etched .. not debossed.

    Have heard the term, chemical milling, used in re-
    lation to these badges.

    Not seen in any commercial parts / accessories
    catalog.

    Screw-holes match-up with the die-stamped, factory
    badge.


    The original supply may have dried up ... the very
    last specimen is a lost-wax / cast specimen ... see all
    of those surface flaws.

    I wonder if a dental technician ... someone who makes
    dentures, maybe ... could have done a better job than
    that last specimen ?

    ....... patric

    thumbnail h-d 004.jpg

    thumbnail h-d 002.jpg

    thumbnail h-d 007.jpg

    thumbnail h-d 008.jpg

    9482929080_51a4e9cfaf_b   h-d.jpg





     
    #56 hoofhearted, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  17. #57 Posted Nov 29, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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    Unlike the original badge...whom ever did the lettering didn't have a understanding of typography glyphs and kerning...close but no cigar!
     
    #57 fordsnake, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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  18. #58 Posted Nov 29, 2017

    Saint Lactose The Tolerant

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    Carlton ... which specimen are you referring to ?



    So, am googling away when I run into Kern Type, the kerning game.

    Gave it a whirl .....

    A minute and a half later I was realizing, Oh Wha Tay Goo Siam.

    Decided to kern my WWJD bookmarker ..... a misfortunate move.

    Thought I'd give a solid re-try ... this time with my WWCD bookmarker.

    Pitiful ... jus' pitiful.






    WHAT WOULD CLEMENZA DO.jpg


     
    #58 hoofhearted, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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  19. #59 Posted Nov 29, 2017

    I live for the CABE

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    I'm sorry I was referencing this badge
    HD BADGE.jpg


    Below you can easily discern the font differences when shown side by side.
    Badge A. The above badge, the letters are straight and narrower. They appear if they were drawn with a ruler, the descenders of the E and D do not fall below the base line. Plus the serifs are chopped on several letters.
    Badge B. The Original, Is hand drawn! The letters flow properly. The curves are correct and more organic. Note the letters L,V and I and D, they're curved...not straight.

    SIDE BY SIDE.jpg
     
  20. #60 Posted Nov 29, 2017

    Saint Lactose The Tolerant

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    SIDE BY SIDE.jpg

    Wow !! ... with your graphic manipulation, just a comparison of
    the two-''V's'' is plenty of evidence the fonts do not match ....


    Brilliant ... just brilliant, you are ....


    Thank YOU - Carlton .....

    ....... patric