Help IDing TOC or 1910s ? bike Serial # F25 541P (?)

[Tyberius]

Wow does my yard look like crap. I also need help with lawn care.

So just bought this off the ebay a few days ago (sorry if the other bidder is on this forum! we can talk) I originally bought it for parts since its a smallish frame but a few things didn't make sense.

- The Pope badge looked later -20s to 30s to me. I unscrewed it and sure enough there were signs of an earlier badge below. Unfortunately, I can't see a ghost mark of the previous badge. Anyone want to buy a Pope badge? Also, why in the [bleepity bleep] would someone put a different later badge on this?

- I think the fenders are later too - they just seem like bolted on afterthoughts although they've clearly been there awhile.

SO...now I don't know what to do with this thing. Was going to scavange the pedals, grips and seat off of it and maybe part out the rest but I kind of hate breaking up a nice original condition (minus head badge) bicycle. I think the back tire might actually be the original.

Any thoughts on what this was originally? Thoughts on its future?

 

[Jesse McCauley]

Nice! I kicked myself for not buying that


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[Mercian]

Hi, Tyberius,

Very nice, and I suspect very original.

A guess, but but I think a 1915 Pope. It certainly has similarities with the model shown here, top left page 39 Bicycling W>orld.

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/pope-bicycles-offerings-1915.76881/

Same chainwheel, same mudguards etc.

See this 1915 Pope Lennox (OK, a double bar, but again, same chainwheel, mudguards etc.)

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1915-pope-manufactured-lenox-on-the-road-again.140659/

I'm starting to tabulate Teens and 20's Westfield frame numbers, F is 1915, if it is Westfield, and since Pope went bankrupt in 1915, becoming Westfield, I suspect the P is for Pope, to differentiate the maker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Manufacturing_Company

As I say, my best guess, it may be wrong, happy to discuss.

Best Regards,

Adrian

 

[hoofhearted]

 

[Tyberius]

Nice eye!...but more confused then ever.

 

[rustyspoke66]

Shouldn't be any confusion. It's a 1915 Pope unless proven otherwise. Mercian's theory is solid.

 

[bentwoody66]

I'll add 2 cents. I'm leaning towards Westfield. It is odd that this bike has a Miami seat on it, as Miami's back stock was purchased by Columbia/Westfield after Miami cycles closure. But this is an earlier seat than '23. Who knows??????

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[bentwoody66]

View attachment 1052489

View attachment 1052494

Here is another seat that sold on the CABE at an earlier date.

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[Tyberius]

Mercian-

Sure does look like the link you sent. Do you know what would a Pope badge of that era look like? or would it have been sold under a number of other brands? I want to remove the later house paint, maybe there might be a ghost mark between the black paint and the red primer.

 

[gkeep]

I like that saddle name, I'm old, I need comfort and sometimes my wife says I'm "special", just before she locks me in the basement.

Fun bike for a research project. The forks on my Pierce looked just like that when I found it, straightened out fine with some professional help.

Interesting layers of paint on the bottom bracket. Is the top coat a light khaki like teens wartime bikes? Given the era of the bike could it have been repainted for military use? Long shot but who knows? Or maybe the owner repainted it to give it a cool military issue look?

Good luck with the information hunt!