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Discussion in 'Antique Bicycles Pre-1933' started by Gary Mc, May 16, 2013.
1901 pope built
How is that bike badged? The early Indians 1898?-1904 were built by Hendee. V/r Shawn
Mark, have we've exhausted the history of the Indian and its importance, or can I post a picture of my bulldog? He's just as cute as this 1901 Pope built bike. Remember (to Shawn) Hendee contracted with Westfield (Pope) in 1915 not '16 (see my post #45).
I love the Pope springer fork, and it was introduced in 1910 (see below attachment)
Here it is installed on an Indian with a Merkel Motor Wheel. Note; the bike is a Special Delivery with the black paint scheme and contrasting pins, it also sports the six spider chainring that was used on the Hedstrom prototype.
I use the '16 date as the production of bicycles. I was aware that they contracted in '15 but didn't think bicycle production actually started until the '16 model year. Do you contend there were '15 models? Re: the Pope post--this is what started to dilute the Flying Merkel thread//Dean I believe Carlton was referring to the off topic post (sarcasm). V/r Shawn
Looks like Pope built bikes for hendee “Indian” in 1901
I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusion that Westfield built early Indians...but for our edification please share your documentation (evidence) or pics of a 1901 Indian to compare? I'd love to have been a fly on the wall watching Augustus Pope and George Hendee battle over infringements and patents. LOL
Besides the obvious chain ring the frame measures out as specified to the 02 catalog at the rear stays and the 1 “ tubing. I’m sure 01 hendee’s are rarer then hens teeth but I’m sure someone has a example somewhere.
Mark, so let me try to understand…you’re eluding that the 1902 Indians were Westfield built?
Ok, let stick with this conjecture, I’ll concur the frame similarities…(even though, neither of us has ever seen a 1901-1902 Indian! So like your speculation, my agreement is pure superficial based without facts or merit! Perhaps one day in our lifetime we'll have the good fortune to actually see one up close! Regardless, lets look at the known facts we have:
Jobbers and suppliers were abundant during TOC.
Almost every bike manufacturer ordered their parts from a supplier then welded, polished, painted and assembled on site.
1” tubing (shown in your Pope pics) was not proprietary or an anomaly, but common. Early 1900 there was a trend to go to a smaller size tubing (for a lighter bike)…yet many makers proposed returning to the larger diameter for safety reasons.
More to come
In the early days Hendee raced bicycles and Col pope did too... so I’m thinking this was a long frendship developed through this and the reason why hendee selected pope for the bicycle Indian brand.. since they in 01-1902 focused on motorcycle building, hendee decited to subletting the bicycle building to pope which saves costs and maintain a long term friendship..
When dealing with history, it’s easy to make conjectures without documented evidence. There's an urge for us to want to fill in the blanks with OUR interpretation of what we think are possibilities. Sometimes these interpretations come from things that seem familiar or from what we've seen or what we've heard. We sometimes attempt to connect the dots that aren’t there, trying to make sense of a situation that never existed and unfortunately jumping to conclusions that are wrong.
Albert Augustus Pope was born in 1843 and George Mallory Hendee was born in 1866…that’s a 23-year age difference! Hendee; America's first national cycling champion, retired from competitive racing at 20 years old. I think we can conclude, the idea of Pope & Hendee ever competitively racing…never happened!
The closest Pope ever came to racing competitively was as a spectator.
We all know Albert A. Pope was a bicycle mogul, a conglomerate and a monopoly; controlling the supply chain of his products, in-house productions, mergers, acquisitions, and patent law suits, (A.B.C trust). And him later becoming a pioneer in the automotive industry…but he was never a racing competitor!
If you have evidence that contradicts this fact…I (we) eagerly anticipate your response. We're here to learn.
its a 1902...pope. your right ...I just realized I really don’t care.. nor wish to participate. It’s one of those subjects I prefer to let go and enjoy buying pope, Miami built bikes as I have been for many years and Let the paper freaks do their thing...lol
All of your posts are informative and well researched . Please keep them coming in the future!
For several months, I along with Shawn @Freqman1, have been trying to crack the Indian serial number code. A lot of time has gone into comparing different numbers to see if a pattern would emerge but we still need more proof. As an example, I have three serial numbers of known 1916 (script badged) Indians, ALL begin with the same letter and having the same font. This is important because there is a point in time where the font appears to change as does the letter sequence. There are several other serial numbers that have a beginning letter which appears to confirm the possibility of a patter and jives with known data found in catalogs and other printed information.
In order to confirm these findings, we would like your help. If you have or had an indian, please post your serial number or partial number (beginning letter and first few numbers) here or if you prefer to keep your information private, please pm me or Shawn @Freqman1. For those who have already provided information, thank you.
I was searching for pictures of motorcycles in winter, and came across this 1914 Hendee Indian. Be still, my heart!
Carlton.. my apologies if I insulted you... your work is fantastic. Keep up the good work.
I haven't really been following this thread very much but, does it mean that the closest thing you could get to a factory racer by Indian ( 1901/02 ) is a Pope Columbia factory racer ??
I have a factory racer by Columbia 1902 Model 83 - so was just curious if there are close comparisons to the two. I believe it's the only one surviving as I've never seen another.
Nope-the Pope post has no relation to Indian, Hendee, or the bikes discussed in this thread. For a 1901 Indian special racer see post #147 of this thread. V/r Shawn