Hendee Mfg Co. / Indian Motocycle Co. Bicycles Information Thread

Discussion in 'Antique Bicycles Pre-1933' started by Gary Mc, May 16, 2013.

  1. #161 Posted Nov 27, 2017

    Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,421
    Likes Received:
    3,020
    Location:
    Seattle, United States
  2. #162 Posted Nov 27, 2017

    Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    13,510
    Likes Received:
    11,723
    Location:
    Evans, GA
    How is that bike badged? The early Indians 1898?-1904 were built by Hendee. V/r Shawn
     
  3. #163 Posted Nov 27, 2017

    I live for the CABE

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    370
    Mark, have we've exhausted the history of the Indian and its importance, or can I post a picture of my bulldog? He's just as cute as this 1901 Pope built bike. Remember (to Shawn) Hendee contracted with Westfield (Pope) in 1915 not '16 (see my post #45).

    I love the Pope springer fork, and it was introduced in 1910 (see below attachment)

    Pope Springer.jpg


    Here it is installed on an Indian with a Merkel Motor Wheel. Note; the bike is a Special Delivery with the black paint scheme and contrasting pins, it also sports the six spider chainring that was used on the Hedstrom prototype.

    Indian Merkel 1.jpg Indian Coil .png Indian Merkel 5.jpg


    Indian Merkel 2.jpg Indian Merkel 3.jpg
     
  4. #164 Posted Nov 27, 2017

    Cruisin' on my Bluebird

    Joined:
    May 16, 2011
    Messages:
    3,198
    Likes Received:
    2,115
    Location:
    Wrentham, MA
    ...
     
    #164 dfa242, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  5. #165 Posted Nov 27, 2017

    Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    13,510
    Likes Received:
    11,723
    Location:
    Evans, GA

    Carlton,
    I use the '16 date as the production of bicycles. I was aware that they contracted in '15 but didn't think bicycle production actually started until the '16 model year. Do you contend there were '15 models? Re: the Pope post--this is what started to dilute the Flying Merkel thread//Dean I believe Carlton was referring to the off topic post (sarcasm). V/r Shawn
     
  6. #166 Posted Nov 27, 2017

    Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,421
    Likes Received:
    3,020
    Location:
    Seattle, United States
    2AA66DDA-3845-4B83-9DC8-34144DC33804.jpeg AB1D2377-6083-4BE5-B7EE-6E576C6D0640.jpeg E80C8AFE-4D56-4BDA-9E9E-1C67205F0816.jpeg Looks like Pope built bikes for hendee “Indian” in 1901
     
    catfish and dfa242 like this.
  7. #167 Posted Nov 27, 2017

    I live for the CABE

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    370
    I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusion that Westfield built early Indians...but for our edification please share your documentation (evidence) or pics of a 1901 Indian to compare? I'd love to have been a fly on the wall watching Augustus Pope and George Hendee battle over infringements and patents. LOL
     
    Goldenindian likes this.
  8. #168 Posted Nov 27, 2017

    Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,421
    Likes Received:
    3,020
    Location:
    Seattle, United States
    D8675274-7E7D-44CD-BB71-7A96CC36DA5E.jpeg D8B16729-0284-498C-B250-2F7C27FD27DB.jpeg 8E5A76CB-74FD-46C6-9230-EF09A3B72B1C.jpeg 3EE0B24D-B069-48F8-ADDE-B460E6936724.jpeg C5440102-B297-4CF8-B4A9-AD3C5DAE1644.jpeg 5D7C6F97-CB6B-47B5-B7ED-1012672B01A7.jpeg Besides the obvious chain ring the frame measures out as specified to the 02 catalog at the rear stays and the 1 “ tubing. I’m sure 01 hendee’s are rarer then hens teeth but I’m sure someone has a example somewhere.
     
    Goldenindian likes this.
  9. #169 Posted Nov 28, 2017

    I live for the CABE

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    370
    Mark, so let me try to understand…you’re eluding that the 1902 Indians were Westfield built?

    Ok, let stick with this conjecture, I’ll concur the frame similarities…(even though, neither of us has ever seen a 1901-1902 Indian! So like your speculation, my agreement is pure superficial based without facts or merit! Perhaps one day in our lifetime we'll have the good fortune to actually see one up close! Regardless, lets look at the known facts we have:

    Jobbers and suppliers were abundant during TOC.
    Tubing Ads.jpg The Crosby Co.jpg


    Almost every bike manufacturer ordered their parts from a supplier then welded, polished, painted and assembled on site.
    Hendee Taylor Shop.jpg



    1” tubing (shown in your Pope pics) was not proprietary or an anomaly, but common. Early 1900 there was a trend to go to a smaller size tubing (for a lighter bike)…yet many makers proposed returning to the larger diameter for safety reasons.
    1 inch Tubing.jpg
     
    #169 fordsnake, Nov 28, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  10. #170 Posted Nov 28, 2017

    I live for the CABE

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    370
    More to come
     
    #170 fordsnake, Nov 28, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  11. #171 Posted Nov 28, 2017

    Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,421
    Likes Received:
    3,020
    Location:
    Seattle, United States
    In the early days Hendee raced bicycles and Col pope did too... so I’m thinking this was a long frendship developed through this and the reason why hendee selected pope for the bicycle Indian brand.. since they in 01-1902 focused on motorcycle building, hendee decited to subletting the bicycle building to pope which saves costs and maintain a long term friendship..
     
    Goldenindian and catfish like this.
  12. #172 Posted Nov 28, 2017

    I live for the CABE

    Joined:
    May 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    370

    Pope & Hendee .jpg

    When dealing with history, it’s easy to make conjectures without documented evidence. There's an urge for us to want to fill in the blanks with OUR interpretation of what we think are possibilities. Sometimes these interpretations come from things that seem familiar or from what we've seen or what we've heard. We sometimes attempt to connect the dots that aren’t there, trying to make sense of a situation that never existed and unfortunately jumping to conclusions that are wrong.

    Albert Augustus Pope was born in 1843 and George Mallory Hendee was born in 1866…that’s a 23-year age difference! Hendee; America's first national cycling champion, retired from competitive racing at 20 years old. I think we can conclude, the idea of Pope & Hendee ever competitively racing…never happened!

    The closest Pope ever came to racing competitively was as a spectator.

    We all know Albert A. Pope was a bicycle mogul, a conglomerate and a monopoly; controlling the supply chain of his products, in-house productions, mergers, acquisitions, and patent law suits, (A.B.C trust). And him later becoming a pioneer in the automotive industry…but he was never a racing competitor!

    https://connecticuthistory.org/albert-augustus-pope-1843-1909/

    If you have evidence that contradicts this fact…I (we) eagerly anticipate your response. We're here to learn.
     
    #172 fordsnake, Nov 28, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  13. #173 Posted Nov 30, 2017

    Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,421
    Likes Received:
    3,020
    Location:
    Seattle, United States
    AA477C3B-673B-4061-BF62-24DEAC47B08C.jpeg its a 1902...pope. your right ...I just realized I really don’t care.. nor wish to participate. It’s one of those subjects I prefer to let go and enjoy buying pope, Miami built bikes as I have been for many years and Let the paper freaks do their thing...lol
     
    #173 redline1968, Nov 30, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
    2jakes likes this.
  14. #174 Posted Dec 4, 2017

    I live for the CABE

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    3,038
    Location:
    Utica, MI, United States
    All of your posts are informative and well researched . Please keep them coming in the future!
     
    hoofhearted likes this.
  15. #175 Posted Dec 5, 2017

    I live for the CABE

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,200
    Likes Received:
    1,493
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, 23451
    For several months, I along with Shawn @Freqman1, have been trying to crack the Indian serial number code. A lot of time has gone into comparing different numbers to see if a pattern would emerge but we still need more proof. As an example, I have three serial numbers of known 1916 (script badged) Indians, ALL begin with the same letter and having the same font. This is important because there is a point in time where the font appears to change as does the letter sequence. There are several other serial numbers that have a beginning letter which appears to confirm the possibility of a patter and jives with known data found in catalogs and other printed information.
    In order to confirm these findings, we would like your help. If you have or had an indian, please post your serial number or partial number (beginning letter and first few numbers) here or if you prefer to keep your information private, please pm me or Shawn @Freqman1. For those who have already provided information, thank you.
    Todd
     
    #175 47jchiggins, Dec 5, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
    filmonger likes this.
  16. #176 Posted Dec 12, 2017

    Finally riding a big boys bike

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2015
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    410
    Location:
    Charlotte NC
    image1.jpeg I was searching for pictures of motorcycles in winter, and came across this 1914 Hendee Indian. Be still, my heart!
     
  17. #177 Posted Dec 12, 2017

    Riding a '38 Autocycle Deluxe

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Messages:
    4,421
    Likes Received:
    3,020
    Location:
    Seattle, United States
    Carlton.. my apologies if I insulted you... your work is fantastic. Keep up the good work.
     
  18. #178 Posted Dec 19, 2017

    I live for the CABE

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Location:
    Burbank, United States
  19. #179 Posted Dec 19, 2017

    I live for the CABE

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Location:
    Burbank, United States
    I haven't really been following this thread very much but, does it mean that the closest thing you could get to a factory racer by Indian ( 1901/02 ) is a Pope Columbia factory racer ??

    I have a factory racer by Columbia 1902 Model 83 - so was just curious if there are close comparisons to the two. I believe it's the only one surviving as I've never seen another.
     
  20. #180 Posted Dec 19, 2017

    Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    13,510
    Likes Received:
    11,723
    Location:
    Evans, GA
    Nope-the Pope post has no relation to Indian, Hendee, or the bikes discussed in this thread. For a 1901 Indian special racer see post #147 of this thread. V/r Shawn
     
    corbettclassics likes this.