Hey literature collectors- 1981-83 question...


This ad disappears when logged in

ChattyMatty

Look Ma, No Hands!
Jul 23, 2014
69
19
#1
OK, so long story short, there were two slightly different S/O imported MTB frames available in the early 80's, one eventually making it's way into the accessories page of the 1983 BMX catalog. A couple of us have been trying to chase this little crumb trail over on MTBR and an original owner relates having seen a drawing of it in a 1980 sales rep's catalog, with the first batch of frames arriving in spring '81 (receiving his with the second batch in the the fall). One of the frames is lugged with a forged crown fork, the other a tig'd frame with a BMX-style unicrown fork.

Just curious if anyone out there was bored and felt like flipping through whatever dealer order books or monthly newsletters they might have in a free moment. I have the 1984 Accessories price list, and in the frames price list insert it lists three-

28538 19" Mountain bike frameset SB
28374 Mountain bike 21" SP
28375 Mountain bike 19" SP

Which we think translates to Silver Blue and Silver Pearl.

Thanks,
-M
 
Last edited:

Les

On Training Wheels
Mar 10, 2018
6
3
70
Christchurch, New Zealand
#5
Hi, I have been on the MTBR forum and still searching for anything on the lugged Schwinn MTB, or should that be ATB as that is what the MTB was referred to by Schwinn in 1981. With all my searching I have not found anything that confirms the serial number BS367823 stamped to the underside of the BB. The frame is fabricated from Ishiwata MTB tubing that appears to be pre 1980 but is stamped Ishiwata 3.B on the steerer tube. I have been trying to determine what dating systen Ishiwata used, Juilan or Japanese Showa. This makes a difference of about 5 years. Apart from the catalogue page shown above I am posting another page that shows a lugged frame as mine is. This page also refers to a Siera MTB as a different frame and give the Lugged frame no name. The fork does not appear to be a Tange 141 type although I have not seen what the 141 type is. The steerer tube is stamped Ishiwata and the tubing does match the Ishiwata MTB tubing sizes.
Les

1983PandA29-03_zps5f0c8f23.jpg
 
Likes: Xlobsterman

Metacortex

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Sep 22, 2012
840
461
The Matrix
#7
I have not found anything that confirms the serial number BS367823 stamped to the underside of the BB. The frame is fabricated from Ishiwata MTB tubing that appears to be pre 1980 but is stamped Ishiwata 3.B on the steerer tube.
The steerer tube stamping indicates Feb. 1983 production. The frame stamping seems to indicate the same as well.
 

Les

On Training Wheels
Mar 10, 2018
6
3
70
Christchurch, New Zealand
#8
ABC Services. Thanks for the offer, the Jay Pridmore, Jim Hurd book The Schwinn Bicycle made the comment on page 147 “The Schwinn parts Division brought in some lugged mountain bike frames from Japan. But mostly Schwinn was leaving the new market to others. " I have seen other comments that this was in 1981. Note it was the Schwinn parts Division. I have looked through all catalogues on the web to no avail but the one I attached is apparently from the 1983 BMX catalogue, one I have not seen as a total catalogue. Therefore anything that is a Schwinn catalogue 1981 to 1983 would be of help. Schwinn cold have advertised them in some other way.

Metacortex, The frame stamping is Feb 1981 by the Schwinn system of 1981, nothing else it can be but it is the location that confuses. The steerer tube indicates Feb 1983 if you follow the Tange stamping system but it is the Ishiwata system in use and that can have 2 dating calenders to follow, the Julian calender or the Japanese Showa calender. The 3 could indicate year 53 which equals 1978. The steerer tube is BMX size that was common on early MTB`s. The Showa calender is not unusual for older Japanese companies to follow, one of my cars do. The 3.B could have a totally different meaning and this could be lost in history, certainly not proven either way.

My lead to this forum was looking for Jim Hurd and I have seen he passed away in 2004, sadly this does not help me but someone else may know more or how he came make the comment.
These frames of which I have seen 10 references are not common, they did not receive a model name as they have been sold originally as a frame/fork only. They look more like a 1983 or earlier MTB as made by others from 1980.
 

Metacortex

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Sep 22, 2012
840
461
The Matrix
#9
The frame stamping is Feb 1981 by the Schwinn system of 1981, nothing else it can be but it is the location that confuses.
BS3xxxxxx would seem to indicate Feb. '83.

The steerer tube indicates Feb 1983 if you follow the Tange stamping system but it is the Ishiwata system in use and that can have 2 dating calenders to follow, the Julian calender or the Japanese Showa calender. The 3 could indicate year 53 which equals 1978.
I have several early to mid-'70s Sports Tourers, Super Sports and Continentals with original Ishiwata forks. They all follow the (same as Tange) date code system YM where the first digit indicates the last number of the year and the second letter indicates the month of production. Here is the stamp on a 4E (May '74) dated Ishiwata fork that came on a EKxxxxx (May '74) stamped Sports Tourer.

May_1974_Sports_Tourer_fork_-_Ishiwata_Medium.jpg
 

Les

On Training Wheels
Mar 10, 2018
6
3
70
Christchurch, New Zealand
#10
Metacortex
That does seem to show the number to the year 74 of the frame but it is different to the one on my frame in that does not have ISHIWATA as mine and the format is totally different. Mine is Year month. It does appear to have another marking that could be the Japanese manufacturing symbol. Does it have tube manufacturers name on it else where.
The BSnnnn does not fit in with any Japanes makers number system. The S is in a second place, not as prescribed for the Schwinn Japanese manufactured bikes.
Still confusing
Les

DSC09848.JPG
 
Likes: dmarch

Metacortex

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Sep 22, 2012
840
461
The Matrix
#11
The Ishiwata forks on my '70s bikes all have the 1970s Ishiwata logo (concentric circles with IS, as seen above the date stamp) to indicate the mfr. and the date code is in YM format. Here is a '74 Ishiwata catalog page showing the logo:

1714760238_f4bd3bcec3.jpg


I remain convinced that your frame and fork date from Feb. 1983.
 

Les

On Training Wheels
Mar 10, 2018
6
3
70
Christchurch, New Zealand
#12
Metacortex,
Compare the logo below for what is on your bikes. Most of what it is is not clear, on the photo above. The JIS logo is common on many Japanese items to define a government imposed standard. It can be used by any Japanese manufacturer equally.
The logo that is stamped into the steerer tube of my bike is the Japan Industrial Standard, not Ishiwata`s logo and used in that form until 2008 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Industrial_Standards
The logo on the 1974 catologue is the Ishiwata logo as it also appears on the pre (not confirmed) 1980 Ishiwata catalogue on the MTB tubing page
I have had a looked back at a lot of information about Japanese made Schwinn serial numbers (even T-Mar`s listing) and mSnnnnn is not mentioned but it does define February 1981 in the US made bikes. Of all the numbers used for Japanese production S is only used at the beginning for some manufacturers, not all and generally followed by numbers. If a second letter is there it is for the month, difficult to get beyond M for 12 months and why B at the beginning. S should be first to be accepted as Japanese made. If the first letter was S, the second B followed by a 3nnnn, yes it would be Japan made in February 1983 but it is not that stamped into the frame.
I will just keep looking, if I dont, I will not know.
Les

download.png


page-05.jpg
 

Metacortex

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Sep 22, 2012
840
461
The Matrix
#13
The Ishiwata-built Schwinn forks I've seen only have the earlier ('70s style) Ishiwata logo and no JIS stamp. You appear to be confusing Asian serial numbers with Chicago Schwinn numbers. Your frame serial no. format is MSyxxxxx, which according to the Asian Serial Number Guide was used by several Japanese and other manufacturers and indicates Feb. '83 production. I also checked the '82 and '83 parts catalogs and your frame only appears in the '83 catalog. At this point there is no doubt in my mind your frame and fork date from Feb. '83.
 
Last edited:

Les

On Training Wheels
Mar 10, 2018
6
3
70
Christchurch, New Zealand
#14
Hi again
I have had a look at the Asian guide where there is a group under S.
S(1) (Japan): MSyxxxxx
S(2) (Japan): SyFxxxx
S(3) (Japan): sMyxxxxx
The only one that could apply is S(1) I agree it could apply, this guide gives no reference to which Japanese manufacturers used that system and which US clients where involved, These 3 applications are a cover all approach. It would help if these were made clear. Schwinn Le Tour and Super Le Tour models sometimes began with an 'S' followed by the Japan Made numbering system, is clear as you have shown but does not say the S was not or could be in the second place.
Secondly this S(1) is confusing with the Schwinn number system for the US made in 1981 mSnnnnn where the first number could indicate a year. Do all Schwinn bikes made in 1981 with SN mSnnnn get refered to as Japanese made and when the first number is greater than 1 are the dated as 1982 and beyond.
The other frames the same as mine that I have the numbers of, by using the S(1) application means that these frames where made until 1984 having SN BS367823 3.B Ishiwata, BS367845, CS472494, KS314155, CS476244.
The two with CS4 to me indicates March, does the 4 also indicate 1984. This is well after the 1983 selling of the frames.
I am not confusing Asian serial numbers with Chicago Schwinn numbers simply the Asian serial numbers are confusing and are guide only.
I have seen reference to a Schwinn number GSnnnn where it is said to be a Giant made frame. Schwinn/Giant made frames where Gnnnn only configuration, no other letters appeared. No photo of the frame was included so I will not say I am correct but the Giant explanation is also equally correct.
As I have said before I am not convinced to being correct but I am convinced the date of 1983 is not proven,
Les
 
Likes: dmarch

Metacortex

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Sep 22, 2012
840
461
The Matrix
#15
...The only one that could apply is S(1) I agree it could apply, this guide gives no reference to which Japanese manufacturers used that system and which US clients where involved,
Please look at the guide more carefully and you'll see these entries which conform to the MSyxxxxx aka S(1) format :

SHOGUN (Japan): See Mikki, S(1), S(2), N(1), Yamaguchi.
SPECIALIZED (USA): See Giant, Miyata, S(1)
TAKARA (USA): See Fuji, Kuwahara, S(1), Y(1).
BIANCHI (Italy): See Hodaka, S(1)
MIELE (Canada): See S(1)

While your frame was stamped in Feb. 1983, based on the numbers I've seen these frames were also made in 1984,
 

Les

On Training Wheels
Mar 10, 2018
6
3
70
Christchurch, New Zealand
#16
Mtacortex
Sorry to bare bad news, I have checked the references and,
SHOGUN (USA?): See Mikki, S(1), S(2), N(1), Yamaguchi.
MIKI (Japan): MyFxxxx NOT AS S(1) or (S2)
YAMAGUCHI (Japan): YyFxxxx. There has been some speculation whether Yamaguchi is the manufacturer for this format but samples have been reported with Yamaguchi labels. NOT AS S(1)

SPECIALIZED
Giant 1978-1986: Gyymm on rear dropout. NOT AS S(1)
1987-1989: GFyxxxxx NOT AS S(1)

TAKARA (USA): See Fuji, Kuwahara, S(1), Y(1). = AS S(1) SAME AS THE SCHWINN I OWN, I THINK THAT TAKARA FRAME COULD HAVE COME FROM SCHWINN IN 1983
When I saw a Takara MTB of 1983 I did some searching and even emailed Kuwahara and got this reply.
Dear Les
Thank you contact to us and visiting to our web site.
At first yes before we produced Schwin bike for OEM business late 70's (not early 80's).
Then your bike serial number 1981 that is not our production actually very sorry we can
not give you any information such bike.


Best Regards,
Takashi Kuwahara
************************************************************************
Director
KUWAHARA INTERNATIONAL CO.,LTD


His only suggestion was Bridgestone as the builder simlpy because of the BS. Not Bridgestone NOT KUWAHARA BUILT

FUJI (Japan): P designates assumed production facility codes with known characters including F.G. I,J, K and M
http://www.classicfuji.com/0_Serial_Number_TableAA.htm The first 3 letters required of which non are included with the B and S for the first 2, the third is not a letter NOT AS S(1)

KUWAHARA (Japan): yy mm xxxx(x) year could be a B but the month cannot be an S NOT AS S(1) or S(

BIANCHI (Italy): See Hodaka, S(1) = HODAKA (Taiwan): HyMxxxxx NOT AS S(1)


MIELE (Canada): See S(1). The only Miele SN I found is one "bottom of the seat tube with P3361549" comments suggest it may not be the SN If it it is it is NOT AS S(1)
www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1058003-miele-road-bicycle-information.html



From all of this you can see why I am skeptical about the Asian Guide
THE OTHER WAY FOR THAT NUMBER TO BE ON THE FRAMES IS THAT IT WAS ADDED BY SCHWINN IN THE USA
Les
 

ChattyMatty

Look Ma, No Hands!
Jul 23, 2014
69
19
#17
Bridgestone or Fuji has always been my guess. The drops on the BMX style forks is identical to the drops on Fuji MTB's and cruisers, and the frame looks a hullva lot like early MB-1 Brigstones.
 

dmarch

On Training Wheels
Jul 29, 2018
1
0
36
vancouver
#18
Hi,David here
I have a Bianchi with Ishiwata fork that has 4E on it and BS583673 (maybe this helps give you some certainty Les for your search) on the seat tube of the bike placing it as a February 85 and it would seem with the fork being produced the year prior. Anyone know of some Bianchi catalogues from that year to look through so i can determine the model?
Thanks
 

This ad disappears when logged in
Most Recent BUY IT NOW Items Listed on eBay
$12.00
eBay Auction Picture
$45.00
eBay Auction Picture
$12.00
eBay Auction Picture
$39.98
eBay Auction Picture
$125.00
eBay Auction Picture
$500.00
eBay Auction Picture
$95.00
eBay Auction Picture
$12.00
eBay Auction Picture
$5.00
eBay Auction Picture
$5.99
eBay Auction Picture
$45.00
eBay Auction Picture
$0.99
eBay Auction Picture
$9.95
eBay Auction Picture
$14.99
eBay Auction Picture
$99.95
eBay Auction Picture
$39.99
eBay Auction Picture
$99.99
eBay Auction Picture
$28.00
eBay Auction Picture