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Legit Black Beauty or ????

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Kato

I live for the CABE
Found this bike listed for sale......supposed to be a Black Beauty - I'm not so sure
After looking it over and doing a bunch of research I don't think it is.........?
Seat is wrong era and rims look to be a lot more modern metal.......easy things that jump out.
The thing that really gets me is the head-badge. It says BB but I've never seen that style and it looks like it doesn't fit right - like this bike had a different badge originally - and the 2 dimples really get me / no idea what those are.
No BB sprocket but I found info where this style was used or at least possibly available.
Truss rod style with the 2 bars being very close is not very common. I did find a few examples including the EC Simmons shown and the one with the boy sitting on the bike ( Racycle badge ? )

I'd really like the core of the bike to be legit but so much doesn't seem right.
Really hoping for some input on it - thinking about looking at it in a couple weeks.
Tear it apart - appreciate any info, opinions etc !!!!

BB1.jpg

bb3.jpg

bb2.jpg

bike 2 (2).JPG

bike 7.JPG

bike 3.JPG

bike 6.JPG

BB Book.jpg

$_57.JPG

Simmons Westminster 810.jpg

unnamed.jpg

headbadges 1.jpg
 
Kato are those divits on the head tube below the badge or where other rivets/screws were at one time? Pretty cool looking bike man, I guess that's a Fauber chain wheel.
Sean
 
Kato are those divits on the head tube below the badge or where other rivets/screws were at one time? Pretty cool looking bike man, I guess that's a Fauber chain wheel.
Sean

Sean,
Really have no idea - that was one of the things that jump out at me. They are more like dimples and not fully drilled holes.
I keep thinking it originally had a different badge and they put the BB on it........a BB style I've never seen or can't find.
It is a kool bike and it original enough I'd consider it but just too many questions as of now.......plus the owner thinks the whole bike is original.
 
you should look up the thread on truss frames and the unique ones. The truss on that one looks different from the drawing.
I would image it would have an older badge for that type of frame. Those era truss frames usually have a sculpted style badge.
The badges in your image at the bottom are more like 30's-40's type badges.

I have a BB with a sculpted stamps type badge and I have yet to see another bike with the same.

Look up the BB thread also.
 
Abe I agree about the badges , it looks like a faber one piece crank also original pat 1894 .I had some 1940;s b.b. years ago w/ the b.b. badges top center
 
you should look up the thread on truss frames and the unique ones. The truss on that one looks different from the drawing.
I would image it would have an older badge for that type of frame. Those era truss frames usually have a sculpted style badge.
The badges in your image at the bottom are more like 30's-40's type badges.

I have a BB with a sculpted stamps type badge and I have yet to see another bike with the same.

Look up the BB thread also.

I've Searched the CABE for " truss frame " info and really didn't come up with a whole lot that helped.....also " Unique truss frame "
Am I missing it - can you give me the actual link that'll take me to that thread........?
That Model 20 pic is also the much more common style with the curved arch.......so I'd say it can't be a Model 20.
The one I found really doesn't curve - both bars are really sort of straight from where they meet in the middle going outwards.

Actually after looking more at the pic ( zooming in ) the Model 20 info matches the bikes chain ring perfect - it has the exact same center.
The diagram that says " Good service " the center of the ring is different - no design in the very middle.

The image at the bottom of the badges was just what I could find as far as BB badges........but i couldn't find the style on the bike.
The person that has the bikes thinks it's a 1905 - were there BB bikes going that far back.........???
I've had TOC bikes and they all had wooden rims - obviously these aren't wooden.....although that's something somebody could have changed to make it ride-able.

Appreciate the info - just trying to put the pieces to the puzzle together
 
patric,
That's the same pic I have posted
After I got looking at it the center of the sprocket is different from whats on the bike - not as much of a design.
If you look at the bike sprocket and then the very center of the Model 20 pic I found they are exact........and that's a BB.
I did notice that it does say EC Simmons / Westminster..........and I did find a pic of a EC Simmons with that truss frame style.
Are you thinking maybe it's a EC Simmons with a BB badge put on later...........???
I think my brain is smoking :)
Kato

I found this - 3176 - not 3174 and it does have the exact same sprocket

3176.JPG
 
@Kato

Horsepower added for you, young man.

….. patric




View attachment 1051554


Simmons bike with a BB badge on it somehow.............
Oh boy - sensory overload but fun trying to figure out the mystery / story...........
The 2 dimples still don't make sense - EC Simmons badges I find have 2 holes - center top and bottom

Going to try and get some sleep - will dive back in tomorrow :)
Thanks for the help !!!
 
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