Monark serial numbers

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Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
Hi Folks!

I'm new to this group and have read various posts over the last few years while looking for info. So as you can see by my post title, I'm looking for some help with Monark Super Deluxe numbers. I saw a post with listings starting with the year 1934-1942(?) for stamped numbers on the bottom of the bottom bracket shell then a gap during WWII. Then it starts again with 1946-19##.

My query is for a client ( I own a mobile bike shop) that's has no idea what they have except that the bike and frame with parts are old and are Monarks. I'm not posting pics as I'm not looking for values and the light in Seattle is not good this time of year plus I really don't have time to do extensive pics.. Just trying to confirm some info that seems mixed up. All I want is the year based on the numbers. I've included some info on parts on the bike and what's available for the frame/fork. We'll do pics once everything is squared away. If anyone here bids on this on ebay or is interested, when the time comes, I'll personally pack everything.

Bike 1 model #/ serial number) Mod; 4406; 118143 (stamped on alloy plate). Bike is nearly complete but here are some features (correct or incorrect). Maroon paint w/ cream accents. Has tail "light" reflector I saw on a 1947 posted (bulky but a nice aero look), dog leg cranks (though I suspect these were changed as all pics I see are traditional one-piece cranks); Skip tooth chainwheel and cog; tank with horn button on right; double spring fork, correct stem/bar; chain link blackwall tires. Missing: rack; pedestal headlight; Seat. So what's odd is that on the Cabe postings I've seen, the horn button on right says 48-49-50 but the serial number indicates 1946. What gives? A note about the tank, seems a past owner may have welded the right hand tank half brackets to the lower "top tube" so the tank sits to far aft on the frame. Darn it. Also missing are the upside down cone shaped covers for springs.

Frame/fork with parts 2) Mod: 4400 C, #1193679 (stamped on alloy plate). What I have, Frame (maroon repaint w/o cream accents). All the fork and springer parts except headset and rubber bumpers and upside down cone covers (replacement headset easy to get); rack and rear rack trim; fenders/struts; tank halves; chainguard; decals, crankset; chainwheel (standard and skiptooth). Missing except as previously noted: wheels; tires/tubes; frt light and rear reflector (I have a later housing); bar/stem/grips; horn; chain. As noted previously, frame/fork/ springer all repainted maroon along with the fenders. No cream accents. All the "accessories" are painted red.

Thank you
Campyjoe
 

Freqman1

Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline
Jul 14, 2009
19,631
Evans, GA
You are correct bike #1, by serial, is a '46--at least the frame is. Talking about the welded tank makes me suspect if it is even the correct tank. Of course without pics no way to tell. Bike #2 I would be a '52, I believe, by serial #. From what you are describing these might best be parts bikes. The Monark SDs are probably about the most common post war deluxe bikes there are and a lot of nice originals exist. Unless you are just looking for an auction venue you could list here in the for sale section if you have already determined a price. V/r Shawn
 

jimbo53

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Jul 17, 2015
905
Charlotte NC
Hi Campyjoe,
Welcome to the CABE. Lots of great people and an extensive knowledge bank of information here to help with the vintage bicycle hobby.
While you didn't post any pictures, many of us on here pick up lots of information and history looking at other people's vintage bikes and parts. I know you only wanted a correct date, but please consider becoming a part of the giving and take here and put up some pictures. Often, someone might see something unusual or a rare part you didn't know anything about.
 

Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
Hi Campyjoe,
Welcome to the CABE. Lots of great people and an extensive knowledge bank of information here to help with the vintage bicycle hobby.
While you didn't post any pictures, many of us on here pick up lots of information and history looking at other people's vintage bikes and parts. I know you only wanted a correct date, but please consider becoming a part of the giving and take here and put up some pictures. Often, someone might see something unusual or a rare part you didn't know anything about.

Hi Jimbo53....I appreciate what you have to say about pics. That said, if time and light was on my side, that's what I would've done. Maybe once I have everything sorted out, I mightt just do that.
 
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Reactions: jimbo53

Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
You are correct bike #1, by serial, is a '46--at least the frame is. Talking about the welded tank makes me suspect if it is even the correct tank. Of course without pics no way to tell. Bike #2 I would be a '52, I believe, by serial #. From what you are describing these might best be parts bikes. The Monark SDs are probably about the most common post war deluxe bikes there are and a lot of nice originals exist. Unless you are just looking for an auction venue you could list here in the for sale section if you have already determined a price. V/r Shawn

Freqman1...thanks for the input. "bike 2" isn't a bike at this stage. Just a collection of parts and a frame/fork. It was repainted as were the parts; tank halves, chainguard, rack, etc. In fact, w/o wheels it's just what it is, parts. I'm not going to determine the price though I am going to make recommendations to the owner/seller. I think she likes ebay but that's still a week away.
 

Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
Freqman1...thanks for the input. "bike 2" isn't a bike at this stage. Just a collection of parts and a frame/fork. It was repainted as were the parts; tank halves, chainguard, rack, etc. In fact, w/o wheels it's just what it is, parts. I'm not going to determine the price though I am going to make recommendations to the owner/seller. I think she likes ebay but that's still a week away.
Freqman1...thanks for the input. "bike 2" isn't a bike at this stage. Just a collection of parts and a frame/fork. It was repainted as were the parts; tank halves, chainguard, rack, etc. In fact, w/o wheels it's just what it is, parts. I'm not going to determine the price though I am going to make recommendations to the owner/seller. I think she likes ebay but that's still a week away.
Just some updated info,,,,I've been busy as I own a mobile bike shop and that's kept me busy the last several days. So last night I was in the garage and thinking about what you said about the tank, Took out the screws and looked at the tabs the screws thread into and gave the forward one a tap and the rt hand side moved. So it wasn't welded in place at all. Went ahead and placed it where it needs to be. By the way, that's on the '46. One thing I'm still a bit perplexed about. The skip tooth cog, chainwheel and chain. Having worked in the bike industry for 40 years, I always heard that's considered pre-war. Pictures on bikes I've seen online seem to confirm that for ballooners. Here's where it gets odd. Tracks bikes sometimes are seen with skip tooth right up into the 60's. If skip tooth was prewar, why would someone hassle with changing the whole drivetrain on this bike from 1/2 x 1/8 to 1 x 3/16 (skip tooth)? I sure wouldn't unless maybe a later owner had this stuff lieiing around in a pile and the 1/18" chainwheel, cog and chain were worn out. Very odd.
 

Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
Just some updated info,,,,I've been busy as I own a mobile bike shop and that's kept me busy the last several days. So last night I was in the garage and thinking about what you said about the tank, Took out the screws and looked at the tabs the screws thread into and gave the forward one a tap and the rt hand side moved. So it wasn't welded in place at all. Went ahead and placed it where it needs to be. By the way, that's on the '46. One thing I'm still a bit perplexed about. The skip tooth cog, chainwheel and chain. Having worked in the bike industry for 40 years, I always heard that's considered pre-war. Pictures on bikes I've seen online seem to confirm that for ballooners. Here's where it gets odd. Tracks bikes sometimes are seen with skip tooth right up into the 60's. If skip tooth was prewar, why would someone hassle with changing the whole drivetrain on this bike from 1/2 x 1/8 to 1 x 3/16 (skip tooth)? I sure wouldn't unless maybe a later owner had this stuff lieiing around in a pile and the 1/18" chainwheel, cog and chain were worn out. Very odd.
One other thing about this bike, there's no "Super Deluxe" decal on the chainguard. I'm headed out today to service a modern bike and some other repairs (tubeless tire service) and bb replacement. Tomorrow I'll post a pic or two of the '46. Then we can see what's up with this bike.
 

Freqman1

Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline
Jul 14, 2009
19,631
Evans, GA
Just some updated info,,,,I've been busy as I own a mobile bike shop and that's kept me busy the last several days. So last night I was in the garage and thinking about what you said about the tank, Took out the screws and looked at the tabs the screws thread into and gave the forward one a tap and the rt hand side moved. So it wasn't welded in place at all. Went ahead and placed it where it needs to be. By the way, that's on the '46. One thing I'm still a bit perplexed about. The skip tooth cog, chainwheel and chain. Having worked in the bike industry for 40 years, I always heard that's considered pre-war. Pictures on bikes I've seen online seem to confirm that for ballooners. Here's where it gets odd. Tracks bikes sometimes are seen with skip tooth right up into the 60's. If skip tooth was prewar, why would someone hassle with changing the whole drivetrain on this bike from 1/2 x 1/8 to 1 x 3/16 (skip tooth)? I sure wouldn't unless maybe a later owner had this stuff lieiing around in a pile and the 1/18" chainwheel, cog and chain were worn out. Very odd.
The skiptooth or 1" pitch drivetrain was used by many manufacturers well after the war and up into the mid 50's. Also rear facing drop outs were used by some companies after the war so that isn't a sure 'tell' either. That said most Monarks normally used a 1/2" pitch drive (both pre and post war) so this may have been changed at some point. Pics would really help. Regarding the "Super Deluxe" this same trim level was sold as a Firestone Super Cruiser, Monark Cycle King, Monark Holiday, and probably a couple of others. Below is a pic of a "Cycle King" I used to own. V/r Shawn

Monark (2).jpg
 

Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
2018-03-10 2018-03-10 001 002.JPG
2018-03-10 2018-03-10 001 003.JPG
So I finally got a chance to take a few pics. I took only 3 ( it's a single-speed bike so not a lot of detail) and tossed one. The bike pictured is the one a I referenced by serial # AO 118143.And Shawn, thanks for the info on skip tooth chains and related components being available postwar. In at least one way it makes sense. Pre-war all the companies are building bikes then they're making weapons. All those unused parts had to go somewhere. I know for even the US road market, things aren't what they seem to be in 1946-47 bikes. So the model number is 4406. You guys mentioned it's a '46. But note the horn button on the rt side of the tank. If this bike is posted here for sale (not my decision) I took some 0000 fine steel wool to a spot on each rim to see how bad the oxidation is. These rims are definitely recoverable. If you want museum quality, then they'll need refinishing but if would be a rider, they're good. Also of note, the crankarm is a dog-leg type. Too bad the light is missing. Seats are a easier to come by. Oh, i have the stem/bar but the stem clamp bolt is missing.

The frame i inquired about, no pics as it's just a frame. I did hang the fork and struts on it so when it comes time for ebay or whatever pics. it's shown what it should look like.
 

Freqman1

Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline
Jul 14, 2009
19,631
Evans, GA
2018-03-10 2018-03-10 001 002.JPG
2018-03-10 2018-03-10 001 003.JPG
So I finally got a chance to take a few pics. I took only 3 ( it's a single-speed bike so not a lot of detail) and tossed one. The bike pictured is the one a I referenced by serial # AO 118143.And Shawn, thanks for the info on skip tooth chains and related components being available postwar. In at least one way it makes sense. Pre-war all the companies are building bikes then they're making weapons. All those unused parts had to go somewhere. I know for even the US road market, things aren't what they seem to be in 1946-47 bikes. So the model number is 4406. You guys mentioned it's a '46. But note the horn button on the rt side of the tank. If this bike is posted here for sale (not my decision) I took some 0000 fine steel wool to a spot on each rim to see how bad the oxidation is. These rims are definitely recoverable. If you want museum quality, then they'll need refinishing but if would be a rider, they're good. Also of note, the crankarm is a dog-leg type. Too bad the light is missing. Seats are a easier to come by. Oh, i have the stem/bar but the stem clamp bolt is missing.

The frame i inquired about, no pics as it's just a frame. I did hang the fork and struts on it so when it comes time for ebay or whatever pics. it's shown what it should look like.
Odd to see a fork bent that way normally they are bent the other direction. V/r Shawn
 
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Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
Odd to see a fork bent that way normally they are bent the other direction. V/r Shawn
Shawn, you're saying most of the forks are bent backwards from crashes? Wouldn't surprise me really. They can bend forward if ridden off a dropoff with very low tire pressure in front. Even the fork that's part of the second "bike" is the same. Sits forward. So based on the info I initially posted last month and restated today, this is a 1946 but the tank is horn button is located correctly/incorrectly?
 

Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
Shawn, you're saying most of the forks are bent backwards from crashes? Wouldn't surprise me really. They can bend forward if ridden off a dropoff with very low tire pressure in front. Even the fork that's part of the second "bike" is the same. Sits forward. So based on the info I initially posted last month and restated today, this is a 1946 but the tank is horn button is located correctly/incorrectly?
I just googled 1946 Monark bicycle to look at images of multiple bikes. Some, the forks are straight inline with the heat tube and some are a bit forward. If these are "bent" then they can be fixed. There's a tool for it I can access but I'm not going to pout time into that for the client. Their budget isn't big enough for me to do that. $350 to clean things up, do some investigative and i.d. work and make a list of needs and what's missing.
 

Freqman1

Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline
Jul 14, 2009
19,631
Evans, GA
I'm not sure about other bikes with the forks leaning forward but these should always be in line with the head tube. The web is great but a good library is even better. Some confusion exists with Monark numbers. There is the Polizzi list and the one offered through ABC services which puts this at '47. The attached ad from the revised Polizzi book is from August '47. This bike looks dead original (except for the crank & chain ring which may have been damaged in that horrific crash!)--including the desirable 'snake belly' tires. So if you have the stem and bar you are missing seat, light, and rack. V/r Shawn

DSC_0938.JPG
 

Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
I'm not sure about other bikes with the forks leaning forward but these should always be in line with the head tube. The web is great but a good library is even better. Some confusion exists with Monark numbers. There is the Polizzi list and the one offered through ABC services which puts this at '47. The attached ad from the revised Polizzi book is from August '47. This bike looks dead original (except for the crank & chain ring which may have been damaged in that horrific crash!)--including the desirable 'snake belly' tires. So if you have the stem and bar you are missing seat, light, and rack. V/r Shawn

DSC_0938.JPG
Shawn, thanks for the update. You reference a horrific crash. What horrific crash? If this refers to the fork alignment, I would consider that coming from a horrific crash by any means. I spent nearly 30 working as a pro race mechanic and I can tell you about many horrific crashes. In my previous post about a bike of this type or any type for that matter, dropping off a "ledge" with way too low of air pressure allowing the front end bend forward, I can see this happening. It's an easily fixed issue though I'm not going to take the time to do it as also noted in the previous post. Oh, there's a set of cranks in the box that are bent. So in hindsight, putting two and two together, I think someone jumped the bike. The parts box has another dog leg crank, skip tooth chainwheel, 1/2 x 1/8 chainwheel, and bb. I do have the bar/stem but hope you can answer a question about the stem. I know the stem type(shape) is quite common on ballooners but it's missing the clamping bolt. I went to a fastener supplier and good hardware store and apparently the bolt size is unique. Do you know it's size or is it hard to find? Thx
 

Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
I'm not sure about other bikes with the forks leaning forward but these should always be in line with the head tube. The web is great but a good library is even better. Some confusion exists with Monark numbers. There is the Polizzi list and the one offered through ABC services which puts this at '47. The attached ad from the revised Polizzi book is from August '47. This bike looks dead original (except for the crank & chain ring which may have been damaged in that horrific crash!)--including the desirable 'snake belly' tires. So if you have the stem and bar you are missing seat, light, and rack. V/r Shawn

DSC_0938.JPG
One other thing, all the "Deluxe" models I've seen in google images show the name "deluxe" and this doesn't. Is this a Deluxe or ??
 

Joe Sandschulte

'Lil Knee Scuffer
Feb 21, 2018
11
66
Kent, WA, USA
I'm not sure about other bikes with the forks leaning forward but these should always be in line with the head tube. The web is great but a good library is even better. Some confusion exists with Monark numbers. There is the Polizzi list and the one offered through ABC services which puts this at '47. The attached ad from the revised Polizzi book is from August '47. This bike looks dead original (except for the crank & chain ring which may have been damaged in that horrific crash!)--including the desirable 'snake belly' tires. So if you have the stem and bar you are missing seat, light, and rack. V/r Shawn

DSC_0938.JPG
Found something interesting posted by oldfart36 from last August 12. Shows same bike w/o original tires, pedals, missing fender strut, front light. Crankarm....dog leg type.
 
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