Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Antique Bicycles Pre-1933' started by wasp3245, Apr 4, 2015.
“K” = Kramer
“S” = Special
I was aware of the Frank Kramer Special but had never heard of the Professional Kramer Special? I'll have to go back through this thread and see if I can find anything on that.
I guess "P" can also stand for Pierce. I have seen ads for Pierce Kramer Special but it is basically the Professional model.
PKS = Pierce Kramer Special as Far as I Can Read!!!
It May Have Been FKS for the Buffalo Models,,,,Then It Changed????
1899 - Pierce Special Ad
I recently purchased this Pierce locally. Figured I would add it to the serial # list.
Serial # 188250
Adding one I just found to the list.... #500551 ... maybe that first digit is a 6? on top of bottom bracket next to the sprocket. Also A 1650 on the bottom.
Looks like an Angola Pierce Dave. Does it have a badge? V/r Shawn
Yep, Angola era... serial number is latest of any listed here so far. I am betting it's close to 1930. Badge is missing but holes are in the correct spot for a Pierce badge, and of course the signature S brace and sprocket. It's had a hard life, but restorable. I may do this one, not sure yet. Got it from the original owners daughter.
Add mine,Serial number 601004 top of BB Nickle Plate aperture racer frame Angola badge. As a note the head was made flat plate that was formed similar to the late model schwinns. So the tubes were not joined at the head but about an inch back.
Have a pic to post? Would like to see it!
I got the pierce without wheels. found a set of wood racer rims on Ebay (tufo tires) Also I've added a ND two speed conversion Bit of a frankenbike but it must be a late 30s bike.
Mine has a Morrow hub dated 3rd quarter 1934, so assuming my hub is original to it, the bike is likely a '34. Your serial number is higher than mine, so you're probably right, late 30's, or mid.
Great thread with a noble cause.
I was just on the phone talking to the Pierce museum in Buffalo as I had the idea of driving over and seeing what sorts of factory records they had to look at. First they said they are closed for maintenance and do not know when they will be open again, maybe in the spring. They told me that they had no library available to the public, and that there were no records of what serial numbers went with what years of bicycles, if there ever were any they do not have them.
I think it is a bad idea to claim any "hard date" for any serial numbers just because someone who reported the bike stolen in the late 1890s claimed their bicycle was a "1896" etc. model. Bicycles can lay around shops for a long time before they are sold, it would be very easy for a bicycle manufactured for one year to sit in a warehouse or shop for a year or more before it is sold. It is also a bad idea to try and date a bicycle that is around a hundred years old by the parts hanging on it including the head-badge as any of these parts could have been swapped out. Pierce catalogs show how similar the bicycles themselves were for many years in a row with often only minor changes in them year to year, so catalogs are not going to narrow the date of any Pierce down to one year either.
I have been through this whole project before, having had collected classic British motorcycles for decades, and seeing that even when there were factory records showing the dates of manufacture, people interpreted the records as they wished, the records had errors in them, and many other pitfalls. I would never discourage people from trying to find the facts, but just warning that until the facts are very, very well documented by period literature the human ego is going to have as much to say about what date their particular Pierce bicycles are as anything else.
Updated 22-01-18 .... I'll try and consolidate all numbers to this thread.
New Updates - with possible purchase dates ( rather than Hard Dates ) & possible date range from purchase info from Stolen Bicycle Ads & The Pierce Museum - Big thanks to cabe member Blue Streak! .........and everyone else who has contributed to this thread. Also, a big thanks to gben for his input ( see number 156 on this thread ).... Keep what he says in the back of your mind when reading the chart - This is just a guide.
( Keep in mind some of the dates on these bikes are speculation on the owners part. Part of the reason we are doing the serial number list of these bikes is to help us all find a way to date range our bicycles. This has been indicated where possible - nothing is written in stone )
XXXX Special Man's - No Serial No's ( need to check rear dropout ) Not on BB, Not Lugged, Chained, Nickel fork - ( Cabe owner ) The cabe...Pictured in this thread ( 1890's? )
17015 Men’s Pierce Special 1896 Model - Messinger saddle, Wood spring, 80 gear: Humber 3-16 in. chain, Brodenburg pedals; 1 1/2 Dunlop tires; Kuntz rims. This was owned by W.T. Hunt of Newark NJ. - who reported it stolen 07/16/1897 ..LAW Bulletin ( This is a possible purchase date of for this serial number. )
17442 Pierce Special - reported stolen 11/12/1897 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. ) add the possible purchase date for 17015 of 1896 and 1896 for serial no 22384 - it would reason we have a possible date range here from date of purchase of 1896.
19700 Pierce - reported stolen 11/05/1897 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. ) add the possible purchase date for 17015 of 1896 and 1896 for serial no 22384 - it would reason we have date range here of 1896 from possible date of purchase.
21638 Pierce - Sold at Capoke 10-19-2013
22384 Mens Pierce 1896 Model - Hartford No 77, Sager Saddle (Black ), 22 inch frame - gear 70. This was owned by Albert W White 146008 LAW - who reported it stolen on May 5th and placed a Stolen Ad in the LAW Bulletin May 14 1897 ( This is a possible purchase DATE for this serial number. )
22729 Pierce Special - Women’s maroon paint lugged frame ( from the Pierce Museum ) - TY Cabe member Blue Streak
23174 Pierce - reported stolen 09/24/1897 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. )
24415 Pierce - reported stolen 09/17/1897 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. )
30797 Pierce - reported stolen 03/25/1898 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. )
31495 Pierce Special - Men’s ( had a Pan America Decal on it - but based on the serial number it could be around 1897-98 model - had a lugged frame. ( from the Pierce Bicycle Museum ) - TY Cape member Blue Streak
32140 Pierce Bicycle - reported stolen 09/09/1898 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. ) Reported stolen with serial no 32873
32258 Pierce - reported stolen 10/01/1897 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. )
35873 Pierce Bicycle - reported stolen 09/09/1898 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. ) Reported stolen with serial no 32140
35823 Pierce Racer - reported stolen 06/10/1898 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. )
37502 Pierce Ladies - reported stolen 08/05/1898 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. )
40460 Pierce Racer - reported stolen 10/28/1898 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. )
41383 Pierce Bicycle - reported stolen 09/16/1898 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. )
42866 Pierce Bicycle - reported stolen 06/02/1899 ..LAW Bulletin ( This give us a possible date range from purchase for this serial number. )
55615 Pierce Special - Men’s ( from the Pierce Bicycle Museum ) - TY Cabe member Blue Streak
55972 Special Man's c1898 - Collected by Dave Toppin
58877 ( Stamped on seat post ) Rear steering Tandem ( dfa242 ) The Cabe
57365 Special Model 344 Chain driven cushion ( Flat Spring by Crank ) - Shawn - believed to be 1901/2….the cabe
60292 Racer Man’s - Collected by Dave Toppin
61489 ( stamped on Seat tube ) Maybe a model 513? Sager Seat, Fairbanks Rims, Nickel Fork (gben) The cabe
61758 ( stamped on Seat tube ) Tom ( Tommydale1950) The cabe
63456 ( stamped on Seat tube ) Special Racer - riveted below badge( corbettclassics ) The Cabe
70228 ( stamped on Seat tube ) Chainless rear cushion, Buffalo NY badge ( Alex Nicholas ) The Cabe
76088 Men’s Chainless - ( Jeff Powell ) Cushion frame, spring forks (no shackles), New Departure/P&F Corbin coaster brake, Christy saddleBadge: The Geo. N. Pierce Co., Buffalo
77092 Special Racer - Nickel Plated
85410 Men's Chainless - Hygenic Cushion frame - No springer fork ( Mikeymike ) the Cabe
86133 Cushion Chain Driven - Thought to be 1901 ( Richard Smith )
86689 Pan-Am Cushion frame shaft chainless w rigid fork ( from the Pierce bicycle museum ) - TY Cape member Blue Streak
87605 Cushion Shaft Drive ( Richard Smith )
92688 ( Stamped in Seat tube ) Hygenic Cushion Chain ( Metal Springer rear ) Springer Fork ( Special badge ) Nickel Head from Capoke
96613 Pierce - sold at Capoke 4/22/2006
96637 ( Stamped on Seat tube ) Ladies Pierce Chainless Double Cushion. Front fork springer ( no shackles ), S bracket between down tubes. Could not read plate below badge & could not read last pat date on rear spring shock. ( for sale by IngoMike ) ( IngoMike ) The Cabe - he considered this a 1901 model
96665 Ladies Chainless ( Jeff Powell ) Cushion frame, Spring forks w/shackles, Pierce New Departure coaster brake, Christy saddle Badge: The Geo. N. Pierce Co., Buffalo
106877 Cushion Shaft Drive ( Richard Smith )
106877 Chainless Men’s - collected by David Toppin - Again not sure if he is referring to Richards bike
106906 Chainless Men’s - Hygenic Cushion Frame - from Capoke
135320 Cushion Chain driven model - believed to be a 1903/4? ( Will Cress ) Stamped on Seat tube
135320 Chainless - collected by David Toppin…Not sure if he is referring to Will’s or if this is another Model?
145187 ( Stamped on Seat tube ) Cushion Chain driven model, Shackled nickel spring fork- ( Cabe Owner ) Thought to be 1910 by owner? - ( very possibly not correct. )
145471 Cushion Chain driven model, nickel spring fork- ( from the Pierce bicycle museum ) TY cabe member Blue Streak
x1492b1 (Stamped on Dropout ) Chain Driven model - Collared seat tube (Redline1968) The Cabe....odd serial number? Thought to be post 1908
152026 Chain Driven - LuxLow Stamped on Dropout
156523 ( Stamped on dropout ) Thought to be Special Racer - missing Special racer plate - Collared seat post, Buffalo Badge. Kirk Thomas - the cabe ( thought to be orig. purchased in 1914 )
165302 Man's c1900 ….collected by David Toppin
165509 - Model 110 Special Racer ( Carey Williams ) stamped on dropout
165509 Special Racer Man’s ..Collected by David Toppin - not sure if he is referring to Carey’s bike
166682 Model 121. Pierce Cycle Co, Buffalo badge. ( dfa252 ) Pace bike with Lap Bell
170381 Racer Badge is Pierce Cycle Co., Buffalo ( Jeff Powell )
178873 (stamped on drop out) Frank Kramer Special (twowheelfan) the Cabe
180173 Chain driven , two piece hanger roadster ( gkeep ) The cabe
185513 ( stamped on drop out ) Tom ( Tommydale1950) The cabe
188250 ( stamped on drop out ) ( nj_shore ) The cabe - not sure of the badge type on this one?
--------------------------------------------------------------- ( Angola Badged )
( in theory when Emblem bought out Pierce and changed badge in 1918 )
(……..) Small Childs bike ( Angola Badged ) from Capoke auction site
255073 ( Stamped on BB ) Frank Kramer Special (PKS) Professional Track Racer, Lugged / BSA Chainring, Angola Badged ( Cabe Owner ) The Cabe
256237 Pierce SBBR ( Carlitos ) considered to be a 1922 model
263054 Frank Kramer Special (PKS) Professional Track Racer Model Lugged ( Kccomet ) The Cabe
270951 Frank Kramer Special (PKS) ( Stamped on top of BB next to sprocket ) Nickel frame, Professional Track Racer Model - It is 22" Mid BB to Top of Seat Tube - and 21" From Top BB to Top of Seat Tube ( Carlitos ) The Cabe ..... Carlitos considers it a mid 1920's model
303434 Frank Kramer Special (PKS ) Lugged / BSA Chainring, Chrome (Nickel?) plated frame ( Dweber ) The Cabe
320717 Frank Kramer Special (PKS) Nickel Frame, Lugged Head ( Cabe Owner ) The Cabe
500551 First number could be a 6 rather than a 5… ( stamped on top of BB next to sprocket ) along with another stamp of A 1650 on the bottom, Arch bar frame ( w S bracket ), Truss fork, Morrow Hub dated 3rd qtr 1934 ….purchased from Orig Owner. - Dave ( Dave Stromburger ) The cabe
601004 ( stamped on top of BB ) Nickle Plate aperture racer frame Angola badge. As a note the head was made flat plate that was formed similar to the late model schwinns. So the tubes were not joined at the head but about an inch back. Sam ( Sam ) The cabe
One possible use of the serial numbers from the stolen bicycle reports is getting a rough idea of Pierce production per year. For 1898 there are seven Pierce cycles reported stolen with no serial number higher than 42,000, for 1897 there were six reported stolen with no serial number higher than about 32000. This could suggest a yearly production of around 10,000 bicycles a year At This Time. But if we divide the eight years production from 1891 into 42,000 you get about half that per year, about 5000 per year. Production certainly could have been higher in 1897 than it was in 1891 or the first year or so of Pierce bicycle production.
Bicycles were booming at this time and Pierce certainly should have been increasing production as they got into the swing of things. If you go with the high production figure of 10k per year, you can guess that a bicycle from 1899 would have no higher a number than 52k, one from 1900 no higher than 62K, 1901-72K, 1902-82K, 1903-92K, 1904-102K, 1910-162k, 1915-202k, 1918-232k.
Interesting that it puts serial-number 232,000 right about where it should be in the collection of serial-numbers above as far as switching production to Angola. It places my bike towards the end of 1900 production about where literature shows it could be too.
Of course the Angola production is by a completely different factory where the bicycles were more of a "badge engineering" project, so unless stolen bicycle data from several years into Angola production was available the data from stolen Buffalo Pierce bicycles is going to be unusable for dating Angola bikes.
This is all guess-work, but it shows what can be done by looking at the very little data from the stolen bicycle records and some simple math. The more data that pops up or is looked at the more accurate this guesswork could become. If more stolen bike records were available for other years with six or more examples from each year it could really make for an accurate guess.
Pierce Cat 1934... This is interesting as it provides some answers to the P.K.S question ( for this year anyway ). These images are elsewhere on the cabe website posted by cabe member cds2323 along with a bunch of other cool stuff.
The complete catalog is in this album. It's a poor Xerox copy but is all I have. How a lot of stuff was passed around pre internet.