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Roadmaster Supreme
- Thread starter John
- Start date
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I assumed this thread would appear as I was gathering my thoughts and typing them out.
The simple fact is that this bike is a 1938 pattern boy’s Supreme that has had a 1937 tank fitted to it sometime well after it left the factory.
I have known this bike since it was sold to Jerry Berg in 1999 and have pictures of it from that time. Jerry sold the bike to Dan V. and I have had conversations with both owners about the bike during their ownerships. It has never been my desire to “out” this bike to the detriment of any owner but as it is up for sale and the current owner should know better than to make the claims he is making, I will post the following for the sake of the bike which can’t speak for itself.
The 1999 photos I have clearly show a 1938 pattern bike with a 1937 tank mounted to it. During Jerry’s ownership of the bike, the 1937/38 differentiating parts were gradually removed and replaced with 1937 pattern parts with original patina that does a good job of matching both the frame and the tank.
Beyond that parts revision, the clear fact is that the tank-surround pattern darts on the head and top tubes are 1938 pattern, designed to accentuate the 1938 4-Gill tank (1937 versions, tanked or tank-less, did not use this pattern and 1938 no-tank boy’s Supremes used a simple spear point dart pattern.) Taking this a step further, if the tank was originally fitted to the bike why is the under-tank portion of the original frame paint scarred as it is and why is it not darker and less worn from being shielded from the sun and general scuffing. There are many more points I could list to back up my argument but I think the heavy ghosting left by the reflector headbadge brings it all home to a conclusion that would leave any alternate opinion on terra un-firma.
I’m also not sure where Dan has found a list of serial numbers that would indicate this bike can be read as a 1937 or a 1938. I have the serial number of this frame in my database and it falls about 75,000 units above the last bike I have recorded as a 1937 production bike and less than 150 units under my own 1938 boy’s Supreme.
As for the Hub Cycle Supply catalog; I imagine some 1937 Roadmasters were retailed into 1938 but the picture of 1937 pattern bicycles in this catalog makes me believe that the Fall/Winter of the catalog may be Fall 1937/Winter 1938 rather than a year later or that the illustration was not updated for the catalog. If the catalog is indeed from fall 1938/ Winter 1939 the current CWC model would be a standard 1939 straight down tube Supreme or the girl’s equivalent, like the one recently battered on the Loadstar Express shipping dock.
What ultimately bothers me is that I have shared this information and more with Dan and, as is too often the case, some collectors seem to only be shopping for any opinion that matches what they would like to hear or believe. Once they have built a big enough cloud of doubt in their own minds they selectively erase what they didn’t like and build a story like the one featured in the eBay ad. (I think Dan still needs to work a bit harder on believing his own story so he can write it a bit more convincingly)
In the end, what Dan has for sale is a nice 1938 boy’s Supreme that 13 years ago was only missing a tank to be correct and complete. Now that original bike is almost completely lost but it still could be replicated leaving an unattached 1937 tank to go on an appropriate frame. In the car world, many significant automobiles (read multimillion dollar Ferraris) have been reunited with their original matching number motors after 50 years apart so perhaps someday this frame will be reunited with its own body parts; I think it is significant enough to deserve that.
While rebuilding the bike into what it was and not just what some collector wants seems to be a better end for an historic bicycle, I am not entirely hard core or bent on that outcome. The bike was what it was, and it is, what it is now. Enjoying the bike with the combination of parts it now sports, as a tribute to a 1937 Supreme, is fine if that’s what the owner/new owner wants. What I do believe is that anyone can and has the right to replicate a “1937” bicycle in the present, but only the factory was able to build one in that year. The frame of this bike will always be a 1938 Roadmaster and it is at best uninformed, or at worst an intentional lie, to call it otherwise.
The simple fact is that this bike is a 1938 pattern boy’s Supreme that has had a 1937 tank fitted to it sometime well after it left the factory.
I have known this bike since it was sold to Jerry Berg in 1999 and have pictures of it from that time. Jerry sold the bike to Dan V. and I have had conversations with both owners about the bike during their ownerships. It has never been my desire to “out” this bike to the detriment of any owner but as it is up for sale and the current owner should know better than to make the claims he is making, I will post the following for the sake of the bike which can’t speak for itself.
The 1999 photos I have clearly show a 1938 pattern bike with a 1937 tank mounted to it. During Jerry’s ownership of the bike, the 1937/38 differentiating parts were gradually removed and replaced with 1937 pattern parts with original patina that does a good job of matching both the frame and the tank.
Beyond that parts revision, the clear fact is that the tank-surround pattern darts on the head and top tubes are 1938 pattern, designed to accentuate the 1938 4-Gill tank (1937 versions, tanked or tank-less, did not use this pattern and 1938 no-tank boy’s Supremes used a simple spear point dart pattern.) Taking this a step further, if the tank was originally fitted to the bike why is the under-tank portion of the original frame paint scarred as it is and why is it not darker and less worn from being shielded from the sun and general scuffing. There are many more points I could list to back up my argument but I think the heavy ghosting left by the reflector headbadge brings it all home to a conclusion that would leave any alternate opinion on terra un-firma.
I’m also not sure where Dan has found a list of serial numbers that would indicate this bike can be read as a 1937 or a 1938. I have the serial number of this frame in my database and it falls about 75,000 units above the last bike I have recorded as a 1937 production bike and less than 150 units under my own 1938 boy’s Supreme.
As for the Hub Cycle Supply catalog; I imagine some 1937 Roadmasters were retailed into 1938 but the picture of 1937 pattern bicycles in this catalog makes me believe that the Fall/Winter of the catalog may be Fall 1937/Winter 1938 rather than a year later or that the illustration was not updated for the catalog. If the catalog is indeed from fall 1938/ Winter 1939 the current CWC model would be a standard 1939 straight down tube Supreme or the girl’s equivalent, like the one recently battered on the Loadstar Express shipping dock.
What ultimately bothers me is that I have shared this information and more with Dan and, as is too often the case, some collectors seem to only be shopping for any opinion that matches what they would like to hear or believe. Once they have built a big enough cloud of doubt in their own minds they selectively erase what they didn’t like and build a story like the one featured in the eBay ad. (I think Dan still needs to work a bit harder on believing his own story so he can write it a bit more convincingly)
In the end, what Dan has for sale is a nice 1938 boy’s Supreme that 13 years ago was only missing a tank to be correct and complete. Now that original bike is almost completely lost but it still could be replicated leaving an unattached 1937 tank to go on an appropriate frame. In the car world, many significant automobiles (read multimillion dollar Ferraris) have been reunited with their original matching number motors after 50 years apart so perhaps someday this frame will be reunited with its own body parts; I think it is significant enough to deserve that.
While rebuilding the bike into what it was and not just what some collector wants seems to be a better end for an historic bicycle, I am not entirely hard core or bent on that outcome. The bike was what it was, and it is, what it is now. Enjoying the bike with the combination of parts it now sports, as a tribute to a 1937 Supreme, is fine if that’s what the owner/new owner wants. What I do believe is that anyone can and has the right to replicate a “1937” bicycle in the present, but only the factory was able to build one in that year. The frame of this bike will always be a 1938 Roadmaster and it is at best uninformed, or at worst an intentional lie, to call it otherwise.
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Bicycle Belle
Wore out three sets of tires already!
Thank you Phil.
My opinion is that this is a misunderstanding of the reality of the matter, The 1937 pattern Supreme was designed in the spring of 1936 and probably entered production well before the end of that year. Serial numbers lead me to believe that the transition to the 1938 pattern model also occurred before the beginning of calendar year 1938. Considering the serial numbers I have recorded for both models and the year specific equipment that has been found on those bicycle, it is not likely that 1937 pattern bikes were produced after 1937 although it is possible that a few were retailed out of surplus during 1938. I've explained my opinion of the illustration and the dating of the Hub Cycle catalog in the body of my other post, this is perhaps where the rumor of 1938 "Bug Eyes" originated or perhaps it is the result of smoke and mirrors employed by a collector with an agenda.
Well.... Just an FYI. The Blue/White 1937 Supreme is the nicest condition original 37 I am aware of but the Bellows stem was an (appropriate, I believe) amendment to the bike. As found at Trexlertown the bike was equipped with the less ornate CWC pattern 37/38 riser stem (the one with the annular ring at the top of the quill.)
And thank you Belle,
I hope I can just drop out of this thread now. I shouldn't allow these things to get under my skin but I do. It has been said that collectors are the worst thing any bike has to endure. Sometimes this is true, at least if you value actual history over ego driven revisionism.
Freqman1
Riding a '37 Dayton Super Streamline
I have heard from other collectors some less than great things about Dan but this is truly unacceptable for a guy to knowingly lie about a bike just to make a buck. I'm kinda with Nick on this one, even if it was all there and the real deal, $15k would be a little steep. I would think more in the $10-12k range would be more realistic. I have rarely done business with Dan but can guarantee it will never happen again. V/r Shawn
37fleetwood
Riding a '37 Fleetwood
...and now you know why I have been banned from buying from Dan Venturi for life, I have a tendency to call a dirt bag a dirt bag!
it also goes to show you that great bikes can't be entrusted to collectors, nothing good ever comes of it.
it also goes to show you that great bikes can't be entrusted to collectors, nothing good ever comes of it.
Nickinator
Riding my '38 Deluxe Bluebird
I think we are very lucky on CABE to have such knowledgeable folks, and ones that actually participate in discussions. 15k is a LOT of money to pay for something that isn't correct, and more importantly, as advertised (albeit it's a cool bike and all...)
When that seller had a "deluxe" '38 Bluebird for sale, Nick tried pointing out that it wasn't a true/original deluxe and why...was hoping that inaccurate, aka false, listing was a fluke, alas it was apparently not. Buyer beware :eek:
Darcie
When that seller had a "deluxe" '38 Bluebird for sale, Nick tried pointing out that it wasn't a true/original deluxe and why...was hoping that inaccurate, aka false, listing was a fluke, alas it was apparently not. Buyer beware :eek:
Darcie
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