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~~Rollfast ZepElgin~~
- Thread starter yeshoney
- Start date
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rustyspoke66
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
Built for Rollfast by D.P.Harris. I've seen these with other badges as well. Not sure of exact year but yeshoney is on the right track. If you fix it up I have the correct spacer for the top of your rear fender. It's the last one I have and I only have the top one so that works great for you because the lower one is correct. I think I also have the correct crossbar handlebars for it. Sweet bike!
old hotrod
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
I would think 34-35 since 36 the top tube stops at the seat tube and the seatpost uses the collar clamp where this one uses the through bolt...and stainless shorty fenders not painted fenders like the later bikes...but that is just my guess...
Hi Joe,
Both Westfield and H.P. Snyder produced very similar frames that are often confused with each other. It is obvious from the similarities that one company cribbed the basic design from the other. In my opinion, Snyder copied the Westfield Airider design and made enough changes due both to construction techniques proprietary to each company and pure design changes to keep them out of legal hot water.
This frame is a rare variation of H. P. Snyder’s version, referred to by them as the Tribar frame in reference to the three-tube juncture in front of the seat tube. Both Westfield and Snyder produced a range of frames from the basic architecture of their designs and this version with the addition of the lower top tube is one I have never seen before. (One of the rarest versions of the Westfield Airider frame is one with a truss-arch in the frame where the tank would usually hang.)
Without the additional tube, this frame would be the same as the standard Tribar frame and would use the Snyder “Master” hanging toolbox tank. The Snyder tank looks very much like the Westfield/Columbia/Elgin Blackhawk tank except it has a square nose as opposed to the rounded nose of the Westfield produced tank.
The likely reason variations were produced with extra tubes and no tank was to offer a less expensive variation to jobbers and distributors to round out their offerings. Whatever the reason these seem to be the rarest versions of these bikes and I have only seen one of each (This one for Snyder and one truss framed Airider on eBay several years ago)
Regarding dating the bike, for a number of reasons Snyder serial codes remain unbroken at this time. Several patterns were followed over the prewar years and at the time this bike was produced, it appears that many of the Snyder serial numbers followed a progressive alphanumeric pattern that should yield a serial number beginning with a “C” a “D” or an “E” for the bike. Thrown into the mix are a number of bikes with serial numbers beginning with an “X” and a few others I have recorded that fall outside of those ranges.
Keeping with the “X” bikes, I have recorded X17907, X30093, and now this bike X43035. X30093 is a Tribar Snyder frame identical to this your frame but without the additional lower top tube. It is unbadged but has the Rollfast style darts, again like your frame. The lowest “X” number, X17907 throws a monkey wrench in the flow, as it is another rare variant. It is a very original bike and was badged and sold as an early Hawthorne Sport model, essentially a pre-37 bike with what has come to be known as the “Zep” frame. It has the early version of the locking collet seat binder, which should date production of the bike to very late 1935 or early 1936. Interestingly it has the Tribar seat juncture coupled with a straight down tube and the full crescent fenders again associated with 1936. I believe X17907 is a rare, pre-catalog Sport and probably was produced in late 1935. The presence of the standard bolt clamp on the two later “X” serialed Tribar frames leads me to believe that the collet binder was phased into production rather than tied to a specific date change-over.
Based on the above I would speculate that your bike and these other recorded “X” bikes are probably from very late 1935.
One other thing that may be relevant to this discussion is that the earliest “Zep” type frames have top tubes located too close together to fit the slightly later, standard “Zep banana tank. I would imagine this would also be the case with this frame.
Nothing in the bike world gets me more excited than the appearance of a bike that is an as of yet undiscovered variation of a relatively standard model, so this bike has made my day!
Both Westfield and H.P. Snyder produced very similar frames that are often confused with each other. It is obvious from the similarities that one company cribbed the basic design from the other. In my opinion, Snyder copied the Westfield Airider design and made enough changes due both to construction techniques proprietary to each company and pure design changes to keep them out of legal hot water.
This frame is a rare variation of H. P. Snyder’s version, referred to by them as the Tribar frame in reference to the three-tube juncture in front of the seat tube. Both Westfield and Snyder produced a range of frames from the basic architecture of their designs and this version with the addition of the lower top tube is one I have never seen before. (One of the rarest versions of the Westfield Airider frame is one with a truss-arch in the frame where the tank would usually hang.)
Without the additional tube, this frame would be the same as the standard Tribar frame and would use the Snyder “Master” hanging toolbox tank. The Snyder tank looks very much like the Westfield/Columbia/Elgin Blackhawk tank except it has a square nose as opposed to the rounded nose of the Westfield produced tank.
The likely reason variations were produced with extra tubes and no tank was to offer a less expensive variation to jobbers and distributors to round out their offerings. Whatever the reason these seem to be the rarest versions of these bikes and I have only seen one of each (This one for Snyder and one truss framed Airider on eBay several years ago)
Regarding dating the bike, for a number of reasons Snyder serial codes remain unbroken at this time. Several patterns were followed over the prewar years and at the time this bike was produced, it appears that many of the Snyder serial numbers followed a progressive alphanumeric pattern that should yield a serial number beginning with a “C” a “D” or an “E” for the bike. Thrown into the mix are a number of bikes with serial numbers beginning with an “X” and a few others I have recorded that fall outside of those ranges.
Keeping with the “X” bikes, I have recorded X17907, X30093, and now this bike X43035. X30093 is a Tribar Snyder frame identical to this your frame but without the additional lower top tube. It is unbadged but has the Rollfast style darts, again like your frame. The lowest “X” number, X17907 throws a monkey wrench in the flow, as it is another rare variant. It is a very original bike and was badged and sold as an early Hawthorne Sport model, essentially a pre-37 bike with what has come to be known as the “Zep” frame. It has the early version of the locking collet seat binder, which should date production of the bike to very late 1935 or early 1936. Interestingly it has the Tribar seat juncture coupled with a straight down tube and the full crescent fenders again associated with 1936. I believe X17907 is a rare, pre-catalog Sport and probably was produced in late 1935. The presence of the standard bolt clamp on the two later “X” serialed Tribar frames leads me to believe that the collet binder was phased into production rather than tied to a specific date change-over.
Based on the above I would speculate that your bike and these other recorded “X” bikes are probably from very late 1935.
One other thing that may be relevant to this discussion is that the earliest “Zep” type frames have top tubes located too close together to fit the slightly later, standard “Zep banana tank. I would imagine this would also be the case with this frame.
Nothing in the bike world gets me more excited than the appearance of a bike that is an as of yet undiscovered variation of a relatively standard model, so this bike has made my day!
Classicriders
I live for the CABE
Without being home to access my literature, I can only go by my opinion on this bike. Not that I have lit on this model as 1935 is my lightest year when it comes to H.P. Snyder/ D.P. Harris, but I won't know for sure until I look.
I agree with Phil on this most likely being a 1935 model. I tend to think that it is a prelude to the 1936 "Zep" frame and could accomodate a tank. The early "Zep" frames that did not take a tank had a bottom bar that was attached to the head tube and down tube equally, so in effect were not Zep frames. The bottom bar on this frame attaches to both tube almost entirely as do the "Zep" frames that accomodate a tank. Check the this link http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/bicycle922/3479.htm
So, I really feel this bike represents a transition to the 36 Zep frame we are most familiar with, which I believe was the last year for the tri-bar frame. In retrospect here is what we have for 35, 36 and 37 regarding these frames.
1935 - Tri-bar frame with tool box tank or Tri-bar frame Zep tank.
1936 - Tri bar frame with tool box tank only. Zep frame with tank.
1937 - Zep frame and tank
Again, I may discover some new revelations after checking my literature. Stay tuned.
I agree with Phil on this most likely being a 1935 model. I tend to think that it is a prelude to the 1936 "Zep" frame and could accomodate a tank. The early "Zep" frames that did not take a tank had a bottom bar that was attached to the head tube and down tube equally, so in effect were not Zep frames. The bottom bar on this frame attaches to both tube almost entirely as do the "Zep" frames that accomodate a tank. Check the this link http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/bicycle922/3479.htm
So, I really feel this bike represents a transition to the 36 Zep frame we are most familiar with, which I believe was the last year for the tri-bar frame. In retrospect here is what we have for 35, 36 and 37 regarding these frames.
1935 - Tri-bar frame with tool box tank or Tri-bar frame Zep tank.
1936 - Tri bar frame with tool box tank only. Zep frame with tank.
1937 - Zep frame and tank
Again, I may discover some new revelations after checking my literature. Stay tuned.
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Here is a picture of my unusual H.P. Snyder built Hawthorne Tribar Sport model, serial number X17907, taken at last Summer's LeMay event.
The core of this bike is original and it has a Tribar frame with a straight down tube and a lower top tube, an early locking collet seat binder without the big nut, and has crescent fenders instead of raingutters. The lower top tube on this bike is too close to the top tube to fit the later “Zep” style banana tank. I believe this matches the configuration of Joe’s frame but a few key measurements could be checked to prove that assumption right or wrong.
As I noted, based on the serial numbers and the assumption that they are chronologically driven, this bike is marginally earlier than Joe’s bike and another Snyder Tribar Master-Tank, frame I have, both of which have standard seat binder clamps.
It would seem that this bike falls between the 35/36 Fall/Winter catalog, which does not show a “Fastback Sport” frame (my coined, generic name for the full run of Snyder’s “Zep” like frames) and the 36 Summer MW catalog which has the first depiction of a “FS” frame but with the more standard, non Tribar seat juncture.
With distribution of the 35/36 catalog probably occurring at the end of Summer 1935, it is likely the new-for-36 designs entered production in mid to late Fall 1935 and the designs were refined and changed before the 1936 Summer catalog was mailed in the Spring of 1936. The variant I have must fall between the two MW catalogs, it is never pictured in them and may not have ever been depicted in any Snyder literature either.
What I take from all of the above and what I noted in the previous post is that Snyder was playing with variations at the end of 1935 and by combining designs, they expanded the line with variations that in many cases were not produced for long or in substantial numbers thus making them rare today. I believe that both this bike and Joe's bike are both products of this experimental period. It also appears that the standard seat clamp didn’t die on a Friday to be replaced with the collet version on the next Monday. Evidentially, by serial number, there was probably an overlap of the two designs, and the collet may have been instituted somewhat later on the beer belly Tribar frames than the early FS frames.
Back to Joe’s bike, I didn’t mention this in the first post but the color-mismatched fork is also mismatched by manufacturer. The fork is a Westfield fork and the bike should have a Synder Quadraplate fork with the flat non-corrugated plates.
The core of this bike is original and it has a Tribar frame with a straight down tube and a lower top tube, an early locking collet seat binder without the big nut, and has crescent fenders instead of raingutters. The lower top tube on this bike is too close to the top tube to fit the later “Zep” style banana tank. I believe this matches the configuration of Joe’s frame but a few key measurements could be checked to prove that assumption right or wrong.
As I noted, based on the serial numbers and the assumption that they are chronologically driven, this bike is marginally earlier than Joe’s bike and another Snyder Tribar Master-Tank, frame I have, both of which have standard seat binder clamps.
It would seem that this bike falls between the 35/36 Fall/Winter catalog, which does not show a “Fastback Sport” frame (my coined, generic name for the full run of Snyder’s “Zep” like frames) and the 36 Summer MW catalog which has the first depiction of a “FS” frame but with the more standard, non Tribar seat juncture.
With distribution of the 35/36 catalog probably occurring at the end of Summer 1935, it is likely the new-for-36 designs entered production in mid to late Fall 1935 and the designs were refined and changed before the 1936 Summer catalog was mailed in the Spring of 1936. The variant I have must fall between the two MW catalogs, it is never pictured in them and may not have ever been depicted in any Snyder literature either.
What I take from all of the above and what I noted in the previous post is that Snyder was playing with variations at the end of 1935 and by combining designs, they expanded the line with variations that in many cases were not produced for long or in substantial numbers thus making them rare today. I believe that both this bike and Joe's bike are both products of this experimental period. It also appears that the standard seat clamp didn’t die on a Friday to be replaced with the collet version on the next Monday. Evidentially, by serial number, there was probably an overlap of the two designs, and the collet may have been instituted somewhat later on the beer belly Tribar frames than the early FS frames.
Back to Joe’s bike, I didn’t mention this in the first post but the color-mismatched fork is also mismatched by manufacturer. The fork is a Westfield fork and the bike should have a Synder Quadraplate fork with the flat non-corrugated plates.
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