Sold quick. Military Huffman?

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fordmike65

Riding a '37 Colson Imperial
Mar 4, 2012
21,046
East Los
Just popped up for a sec on eBay and gone. I'm no expert, but those look like pretty beefy welds. Heavy Duty front wheel too :cool:


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Mercian

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Jul 1, 2016
698
53
France
Hi Dave,

Very nice, thanks for sharing.

I make that H127471, with a fork date 93, September 1943.

This is very near the end of what appears to be the second contract for Huffman G519.

The closest frame I have recorded is H127317, which served in Cairo, Egypt. Seen here about midway down Liberator's web page. I think this now belongs to @HUFFMANBILL


For information, I now have 36 Huffman G519 recorded.

For Columbias, I have 2 MF, 65 MG, 5 MC and 9 Ladies MG recorded.

Best Regards,

Adrian
 

Dave Stromberger

I'm Afraid I Can't Let You Do That
Staff member
System Administrator
May 20, 2006
2,265
51
Cheney, WA
Hi Dave,

Very nice, thanks for sharing.

I make that H127471, with a fork date 93, September 1943.

This is very near the end of what appears to be the second contract for Huffman G519.

The closest frame I have recorded is H127317, which served in Cairo, Egypt. Seen here about midway down Liberator's web page. I think this now belongs to @HUFFMANBILL


For information, I now have 36 Huffman G519 recorded.

For Columbias, I have 2 MF, 65 MG, 5 MC and 9 Ladies MG recorded.

Best Regards,

Adrian
Thanks Adrian,

I asked the seller for history, but he had none. It was found in Colorado... no history beyond that is know.

Fortunately, I have a few of the missing parts already in my junk pile.... handlebars, headlight, pump/clamp. Possibly have a chain-guard, pedals and side stand. The only part I'm confused about is the fenders/braces. They look very generic, so I may have some already... or are these fender unique to these bikes?

DS
 

Mercian

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Jul 1, 2016
698
53
France
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the additional information.

It's good that you have parts stashed for this, they are harder to find spares for that the Columbia's.

I forgot to mention that the original Morrow rear hub was probably dated M3, all the known Morrows from the last part of this group are M3, and September is probably too early to have moved onto an M4. That said, it's common for these bikes not to have the original Morrow, tires would be changed in a workshop where there might be several bikes, or even spare wheels ready to go, so they would be easily mixed up.

Incidentally, the Torrington 8 pedals on the bike are the correct ones, just lacking the wooden blocks. If you decide to replace them, then I would be happy to buy them off you, please let me know (-:

Here's a photo study of an unrestored Huffman, built about a month before yours, H124670


This gives you some good close ups of the fender braces on a Huffman, they hav a ridge pressed into them, and the hole for the axle is elongated, which is a weak point and often found broken/repaired.

I can't say how 'generic' the fenders are, but they certainly appear on prewar Huffmans, such as this Dec 1941..


Going back to the unrestored bike, you should note some unusual features. The pedals ar not Torrington 8's but Persons, though they have wood blocks, and look like they could have been original. The side stand is not standard, but Huffmanbill says that these have appeared on several Huffmans. The wheel rims are not the type like your front wheel, but straight sided (I'm sure there's a term I don't know), and this occurs on quite a few Huffmans, including mine.

Parts variations due to wartime shortages is not uncommon, and can be seen on many military vehicles. This bike was built at the same time as a big contract was going through Westfield, so , as a smaller purchaser, they were probably second in line for parts.

The gurrd on wartime Huffmans (and , I think, prewar), is a little diffzerent to postwar, there is an oval lined pattern pressed into the leading edge of the guard.

The upper bracket for the truss rods is different beytween a Huffman and Columbia. The Columbia has a rounded bracket, like this one from Bergerwerke


The Huffman has a squarer bracket, as seen in the unrestored bike pictures. The lower bracket on these late models is the same.

The bolt heads are also recessed on the Huffman, and rounded on the Columbia, the slots for the axle are again elongated on the Huffman.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Adrian
 
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HUFFMANBILL

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jan 9, 2014
153
64
Maryland
If you look close you will notice that you have two different style T8 pedal frames on this bike. On the right side is the correct T8 frame for a 1943 Huffman of this date, which has the non pointed or rounded or Roman style back-plate. On the left side pedal is the pointed or gothic style back-plate, which matches it's front plate and was seen mainly on early and some mid year 1942 military models. Of course both pedals would need the correct style wood blocks.

Are the spare parts that you have on hand original military or civilian matches to the originals?

Nice find! Oh, and yes Huffman #H127317 is mine. I have the history on this bike and the photo in Johan's Liberator site is a war-time pic of the original owner and rider T5 Clyde Wright 1944-45, Eygpt.

Good Luck on the restoration.
Regards,
Bill
 

DaGasMan

Finally riding a big boys bike
Apr 16, 2019
126
53
Long Island
All bets are off on the rear wheel, hub, chain and sprocket. At 1/2” , they’re obviously replacement parts. Spokes are wrong size as well.
So this now brings the crank and pedals into suspicion of being replaced at some time. One pedal probably being a Military motor pool replacement.
And it seems likely that the pedals were “repaired“ at some time by the looks of the mix and match rubber.
 

Dave Stromberger

I'm Afraid I Can't Let You Do That
Staff member
System Administrator
May 20, 2006
2,265
51
Cheney, WA
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the additional information.

It's good that you have parts stashed for this, they are harder to find spares for that the Columbia's.

I forgot to mention that the original Morrow rear hub was probably dated M3, all the known Morrows from the last part of this group are M3, and September is probably too early to have moved onto an M4. That said, it's common for these bikes not to have the original Morrow, tires would be changed in a workshop where there might be several bikes, or even spare wheels ready to go, so they would be easily mixed up.

Incidentally, the Torrington 8 pedals on the bike are the correct ones, just lacking the wooden blocks. If you decide to replace them, then I would be happy to buy them off you, please let me know (-:

Here's a photo study of an unrestored Huffman, built about a month before yours, H124670


This gives you some good close ups of the fender braces on a Huffman, they hav a ridge pressed into them, and the hole for the axle is elongated, which is a weak point and often found broken/repaired.

I can't say how 'generic' the fenders are, but they certainly appear on prewar Huffmans, such as this Dec 1941..


Going back to the unrestored bike, you should note some unusual features. The pedals ar not Torrington 8's but Persons, though they have wood blocks, and look like they could have been original. The side stand is not standard, but Huffmanbill says that these have appeared on several Huffmans. The wheel rims are not the type like your front wheel, but straight sided (I'm sure there's a term I don't know), and this occurs on quite a few Huffmans, including mine.

Parts variations due to wartime shortages is not uncommon, and can be seen on many military vehicles. This bike was built at the same time as a big contract was going through Westfield, so , as a smaller purchaser, they were probably second in line for parts.

The gurrd on wartime Huffmans (and , I think, prewar), is a little diffzerent to postwar, there is an oval lined pattern pressed into the leading edge of the guard.

The upper bracket for the truss rods is different beytween a Huffman and Columbia. The Columbia has a rounded bracket, like this one from Bergerwerke


The Huffman has a squarer bracket, as seen in the unrestored bike pictures. The lower bracket on these late models is the same.

The bolt heads are also recessed on the Huffman, and rounded on the Columbia, the slots for the axle are again elongated on the Huffman.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Adrian
Thanks for all the detailed info, I appreciate it... I'll take a close look at the pics in the links you posted.

I found some truss rods that I think are correct, but I'm checking reference pics to make sure. I also have the correct top bracket (I think). I am pretty sure I have a lower bracket too, but can't find it at the moment.
 

Dave Stromberger

I'm Afraid I Can't Let You Do That
Staff member
System Administrator
May 20, 2006
2,265
51
Cheney, WA
If you look close you will notice that you have two different style T8 pedal frames on this bike. On the right side is the correct T8 frame for a 1943 Huffman of this date, which has the non pointed or rounded or Roman style back-plate. On the left side pedal is the pointed or gothic style back-plate, which matches it's front plate and was seen mainly on early and some mid year 1942 military models. Of course both pedals would need the correct style wood blocks.

Are the spare parts that you have on hand original military or civilian matches to the originals?

Nice find! Oh, and yes Huffman #H127317 is mine. I have the history on this bike and the photo in Johan's Liberator site is a war-time pic of the original owner and rider T5 Clyde Wright 1944-45, Eygpt.

Good Luck on the restoration.
Regards,
Bill
The parts I have are correct, but I think my pump is an earlier version, it doesn't have the groove at the bottom... otherwise same. My handlebars are military version, there are remnants of OD green on them still. My headlight is the pre-war Delta "Winner" with the screw at the back, and I still need to find my chain-guard to see if it's the pre-war version.

As for the pedals, the left pedal had it's outer plate replaced with one from a J.C. Higgins... the blocks are from the Higgins too (with the lettering). The Torrington 8 that's on there isn't original either, it's cad plated, so probably 50's version, but I have plenty of Torrington 8 pedals... just goona have to find some proper blocks.

Crank and sprocket are standard late pre-war Elgin or early Higgins, and obviously not correct.
 
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Dave Stromberger

I'm Afraid I Can't Let You Do That
Staff member
System Administrator
May 20, 2006
2,265
51
Cheney, WA
All bets are off on the rear wheel, hub, chain and sprocket. At 1/2” , they’re obviously replacement parts. Spokes are wrong size as well.
So this now brings the crank and pedals into suspicion of being replaced at some time. One pedal probably being a Military motor pool replacement.
And it seems likely that the pedals were “repaired“ at some time by the looks of the mix and match rubber.
Yeah, the rear wheel isn't right, but I do have a correct rim I'll have to dig out. And as mentioned in my past reply above, the sprocket and crank are from an Elgin or Higgins.
 

Mercian

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Jul 1, 2016
698
53
France
Hi @Dave Stromberger

Here's a few photos from dismantling mine, which is close in date to yours.

For the truss rod plates:

DSCN0767A.jpg


I understand the top plate was used postwar on civilian Huffmans, just plated.

For the rods, I took comparative photos of a Westfield and Huffman made the same month.

DSCN0835A.jpg


The lower rod is Westfield, the upper Huffman.

DSCN0836A.jpg


DSCN0838A.jpg


Below, the left recessed nut is Huffman, and the right rounded one, Westfield

.
DSCN0842A.jpg


DSCN0841A.jpg


You can see that there is even a difference in the thread pitch between the two. The coarse pitch is Huffman, the fine pitch, Westfield.

Here are a couple of photos of the chainwheel and crank.

DSCN0756A.jpg


DSCN0760A.jpg


Please let me know if you need any other detail pics, I may have them.

Best Regards,

Adrian

DSCN0844A.jpg
 
Last edited:

HUFFMANBILL

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jan 9, 2014
153
64
Maryland
Hi Adrian,

Just for your records, I checked the truss rod bolts to all my 1942 and 1943 Huffman and Columbia Military bikes and just like the 1943 bikes the 1942 bikes appear ( at least with mine ) to have the same style truss rod bolts. Recessed head, coarse thread for Huffman and Round head, fine thread for Columbia.

Regards,
Bill
 

HUFFMANBILL

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jan 9, 2014
153
64
Maryland
As for the pedals, the left pedal had it's outer plate replaced with one from a J.C. Higgins... the blocks are from the Higgins too (with the lettering). The Torrington 8 that's on there isn't original either, it's cad plated, so probably 50's version, but I have plenty of Torrington 8 pedals... just goona have to find some proper blocks.
Dave, I realized that the pedal blocks were not correct and from the angle of the ebay listing photo the left side front pedal plate appeared to me to be torrington. However, all that aside, my main point was to be sure that the T8 pedals you use on your project have the somewhat pointed front plate and rounded back plate as on your right side pedal. That would be correct for 1943.

Regards,
Bill
 
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Dave Stromberger

I'm Afraid I Can't Let You Do That
Staff member
System Administrator
May 20, 2006
2,265
51
Cheney, WA
Dave, I realized that the pedal blocks were not correct and from the angle of the ebay listing photo the left side front pedal plate appeared to me to be torrington. However, all that aside, my main point was to be sure that the T8 pedals you use on your project have the somewhat pointed front plate and rounded back plate as on your right side pedal. That would be correct for 1943.

Regards,
Bill
Oh I get it now, the inside and outside plates have different shaped "points"... I had no idea.. thanks for pointing that out! I was just assuming standard Torrington #8.

Thanks,
DS
 

Dave Stromberger

I'm Afraid I Can't Let You Do That
Staff member
System Administrator
May 20, 2006
2,265
51
Cheney, WA
Hi @Dave Stromberger

Here's a few photos from dismantling mine, which is close in date to yours.

For the truss rod plates:

DSCN0767A.jpg


I understand the top plate was used postwar on civilian Huffmans, just plated.

For the rods, I took comparative photos of a Westfield and Huffman made the same month.

DSCN0835A.jpg


The upper rod is Westfield, the lower Huffman.

DSCN0836A.jpg


DSCN0838A.jpg


Below, the left recessed nut is Huffman, and the right rounded one, Westfield

.
DSCN0842A.jpg


DSCN0841A.jpg


You can see that there is even a difference in the thread pitch between the two. The coarse pitch is Huffman, the fine pitch, Westfield.

Here are a couple of photos of the chainwheel and crank.

DSCN0756A.jpg


DSCN0760A.jpg


Please let me know if you need any other detail pics, I may have them.

Best Regards,

Adrian

DSCN0844A.jpg
Very helpful info and detail pics... very much appreciated!
 
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