Westfield Frame Numbers 1933 - 1945


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Mercian

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jul 1, 2016
467
750
52
France
#21
Hi @Demzie

Thanks for taking the trouble to post your number. Yes, it's a 1945, probably in the first three months.

As you can see from the list, the dating system was changing at that point, and we still don't understand what was happening in 1945. When you get the chance, could you look to see if there is a two digit code on the bottom bracket too, above the serial number? It'll may be something like 2N, or N3, or nothing at all. This all helps.

Thanks,

Best Regards,

Adrian

PS, just reread your post, yes, the chainwheel is the correct type for this period, and if it was you that fitted the blackout ND hub, that is probably what it would have had originally.
 

Demzie

Finally riding a big boys bike
Oct 10, 2014
126
93
Green Bay, WI, United States
#22
I did fit it myself, got lucky it was included in a package deal with the frame and forks.

I'll be happy to take a look!

Adrian, Do you suppose this was a wartime frame repurposed for civilian use after things settled down?

Happy Thanksgiving!

Laine
 

Mercian

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jul 1, 2016
467
750
52
France
#23
Hi Laine,

Thanks for checking when you do. I don't have many examples from that period, and each one helps.

it depends what you mean by wartime frame. It was probably built before April 1945 (end of the war in Europe, and certainly before Sept ember 1945 (Japanese surrender), so it is a wartime frame.

If you mean a military G519 frame, then no, it's not a left over one. There are several reasons why not, but there are two main ones.

The tube between the headtube and bottom bearing is curved. A few very early military bikes used curved tubes, because they were civilian frames. After this early production, the frames were simplified so late military bikes had a straight tube here, so that is what a 'left over at the end of production' frame would have had.

The welds at the end of the tubes appear to be very neat. This is because they are brazed with brass, the standard pre and post war process. Most military bikes were produced when there was a shortage of brass, so the ends of the tubes are gas welded, and look rough. I have also read this makes the frames a little stronger, but have no actual evidence for this.

Finally, a guess. If the date code was before L2 (last known production military bike), then it could be a possibility, but I'm guessing it's later than that.

If I've missed the point of the question, please ask again (-:

Happy Thanksgiving too.

Best Regards,

Adrian
 

Mercian

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jul 1, 2016
467
750
52
France
#25
Hi Danfitz1

Thanks for letting me know. F182628 with a code stamp H8 is a frame made in August1941.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Adrian
 
Last edited:

Mercian

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jul 1, 2016
467
750
52
France
#28
Hi 66TigerCat,

Good to talk with you, as ever (-:

Thanks for showing your Westfield. D1 is a frame made in January 1937, with the bike being assembled shortly after. From the current number list, they were building Bluebirds at the same time (-:

1937 was a poor year for bike sales, so they were rare even then, and it's nice to see one in good condition like yours.


Hi Manuel Rivera. D = 1937, 1 = January, so the frame was made then, but you may be close with an assembly date.

Best Regards,

Adrian
 

bobbystillz

Finally riding a big boys bike
Nov 5, 2018
132
367
37
Atlanta, GA
#31
Here's one for the list... J 39778 (?)
Westfield frame, with custom paint job done in early to mid '50s. Badge is not correct, so don't know the brand. 4 Lima bean chain wheel (24t).

20190414_012503.jpg


20190331_202819.jpg


This was the bike before I got it. It had been parted, so I only got the frame, guard, bars, and crank assembly.

Screenshot_20190319-153901_Samsung Internet.jpg
 

Mercian

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jul 1, 2016
467
750
52
France
#32
Hi bobbystillz,

Thanks, an interesting bike. Could you confirm that the overcode above the serial number is N3?

J39778, N3 was probably made March 1945. It was still using at least some wartime spec. "Blackout" parts, you can see the blackout paint on the back of the chainring.

N3 was possibly the last dating overcode used by Westfield before they stopped this system, and this is the latest survivor yet known with it stamped on, so very useful for my tables.

This 'Spitfire' badged Westfield comes just after yours, so may be an appropriate badge to look for.

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/civilian-wartime-spitfire.81388/

I am currently updating the original tables, I already have 100 more bikes than last time, and will include this one. I will publish them here when finished.

Best Regards,

Adrian
 
Likes: bobbystillz

bobbystillz

Finally riding a big boys bike
Nov 5, 2018
132
367
37
Atlanta, GA
#33
Hi bobbystillz,

Thanks, an interesting bike. Could you confirm that the overcode above the serial number is N3?

J39778, N3 was probably made March 1945. It was still using at least some wartime spec. "Blackout" parts, you can see the blackout paint on the back of the chainring.

N3 was possibly the last dating overcode used by Westfield before they stopped this system, and this is the latest survivor yet known with it stamped on, so very useful for my tables.

This 'Spitfire' badged Westfield comes just after yours, so may be an appropriate badge to look for.

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/civilian-wartime-spitfire.81388/

I am currently updating the original tables, I already have 100 more bikes than last time, and will include this one. I will publish them here when finished.

Best Regards,

Adrian
I do not see an N3 stamped anywhere, but it does have blackout parts (original owner tried to buff off the black). I actually have that badge, and my bike looks very close, if not exact, to the one you've linked. It is bolted on, so either he lost the headbadge screws after when he painted it, or it doesn't belong on this year frame?

Thanks for the info Adrian!
IMG_20190402_132754_691.jpg
 

Mercian

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jul 1, 2016
467
750
52
France
#34
Hi Again,

That's excellent news on the badge. I understand from comments on the other link that it's an unusual badge for a Westfield, so I think the coincidence is too great that someone would put it on by chance. i think it's likely that it's the original badge, which would mean that your bike originally resembled the one in the link (note, he thinks the three speed was not original to his bike). And yes, oversize screws.

It's funny how you can convince yourself you see something in a picture. I'm was sure I could see N3 (widely separated) towards the top of the BB in your photo. OK, so if it's not there, then yours is the first recorded without this dating system, which is equally useful to know. It would still be March-April 1945.

Best Regards,

Adrian
 

bobbystillz

Finally riding a big boys bike
Nov 5, 2018
132
367
37
Atlanta, GA
#35
Hi Again,

That's excellent news on the badge. I understand from comments on the other link that it's an unusual badge for a Westfield, so I think the coincidence is too great that someone would put it on by chance. i think it's likely that it's the original badge, which would mean that your bike originally resembled the one in the link (note, he thinks the three speed was not original to his bike). And yes, oversize screws.

It's funny how you can convince yourself you see something in a picture. I'm was sure I could see N3 (widely separated) towards the top of the BB in your photo. OK, so if it's not there, then yours is the first recorded without this dating system, which is equally useful to know. It would still be March-April 1945.

Best Regards,

Adrian
I will double check. Could be covered in paint and really faint.
 

3-speeder

Finally riding a big boys bike
Dec 26, 2017
407
829
Lansing, MI, United States
#36
Hey Adrian what do you make of this one? Looks like they started to stamp it at one point and then added a complete stamp at another point. Have you seen one like this? Thanks for your thoughts, Bob
image.jpg


image.jpg


image.jpg


image.jpg
 

Mercian

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jul 1, 2016
467
750
52
France
#37
Hi Bob,

Thanks, that one is out of the ordinary (-:

H12 is easy, the frame was made December 1941.

G53878 is the 'actual' serial number, when the bike was built up, around April/May 1942.

This is an odd period for bike manufacture and especially for Westfield. Pearl Harbor occurred in Dec 41, and industry in the US started to go onto a war footing. Bike manufacture for civilians was suspended for a time from 3rd April 42, with sales to government agencies only from 13th May 42, and rationed civilian sales from 15th May1942.

Westfield were already fully involved in the war effort. Between February and March 42 they were building G519 military bikes, and this serial number comes after that big block of G519.

So, at a guess, the frame was made around Pearl Harbor, but put to one side for some months whilst Westfield worked through a Military contract. It was then built up as the contract ended, either just before, or just after the freeze on bicycle sales.

So, where does that leave the G3057 number? I'm not sure. You can find two numbers stamped on some Bluebird bicycles (see N131994, B10 (Oct 1935), later restamped A191718 for late 1936). I have guessed that these were unsold/demonstration/display items that were returned for refurbishment and resale. But it is a guess.

For this bike, if G3057 was an earlier serial number, it would be early 1942, which fits with the Dec 41 frame date. So, again a guess, perhaps they started building it up, it was allocated a frame number, then put to one side partially completed to build the military contract. By the time the military contract was finished, new rules said blackout parts were to be fitted, so, since the specification had changed, it was allocated a new number. As a guess, it works.

But for two things.

G3057 would have been an early 1942 number, except that Westfield at this time normally started at 5000, and claim to have started at G17434 in 1942, so this number shouldn't exist as a frame number.

The 3, 7 and possibly the 5 are different font to Westfield's normal font, the 3 being flat topped, in comparison to the usual round topped 3 below it; and the stem of the 7 being a different shape. So I don't think it was stamped by Westfield, although it seems to have original paint over it.

In conclusion, it's interesting, and I wish I knew the answer. Perhaps a Government serial number? (Military bikes have an M stamped in front of the serial to indicate Military). Certainly, I've never seen this before.

Best Regards,

Adrian
 

3-speeder

Finally riding a big boys bike
Dec 26, 2017
407
829
Lansing, MI, United States
#38

Mercian

Finally riding a big boys bike
Jul 1, 2016
467
750
52
France
#39
Thanks Bob,

I'm just working through the update and searching in date order. I've not got to 1939 yet, and am pleased to see this bike, since, for some reason, there seem to be few 1939 survivors.

Other comments about the bike are on that thread.

Have a Good Weekend,

Adrian
 
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