# AUTOMOTO MY GODNES WHAT A BEAUTY



## manuelvilla (Feb 5, 2022)

Got this one yesterday and really love it. 

The hubs really are a piece of art iny opinion well all the bike is great hope you like it


----------



## WillWork4Parts (Feb 5, 2022)

Cyclo setup?


----------



## juvela (Feb 5, 2022)

WillWork4Parts said:


> Cyclo setup?




-----

mech and shift lever appear to be Juy TdF Model 51 -





[catalogue page of 1955]

---

thanks very much for sharing this new acquisition   😉

that saddle pillar belongs on a machine of about three decades later

hope you can locate something more appropriate to mount...

---

pedals appear to be Lyotard model 45CA

pump pegs are NERVEX Ref. 848

stem appears Philippe pattern Nr. 36


-----


----------



## manuelvilla (Feb 5, 2022)

WillWork4Parts said:


> Cyclo setup?



Will take better pics


----------



## Jesper (Feb 5, 2022)

I am fairly certain that your head badge is post WW2, but not mid to late 50s. Those head lugs were only used during a certain time period also; but I do not know the time frame.
Here is my head badge for my 1930ish bike, a contract build frame not badged as an Automoto, period correct.


----------



## dnc1 (Feb 5, 2022)

I'm not sure if you @manuelvilla or @Jesper are aware of this site, but it has a pretty comprehensive history of the company up until their demise in the early 1960's.....








						Cycles Automoto: Setting the Standard | Ebykr
					

Cycles Automoto was a pioneering French manufacturer of bicycles and motorcycles founded at the turn of the 20th century. Well regarded for thoughtful design and meticulous construction…




					www.ebykr.com


----------



## dnc1 (Feb 6, 2022)

Here is an image from the 1952 catalogue which shows a very similar paint scheme to your example, although those 'trefle' head lugs look to have been repainted to me on yours.....




...although the equipment fitted to your machine bears closer resemblance to their top of the range model of 1952..... 




...but that wasn't available in your colour scheme.
But who can say what colours were also available through the 1950's,  unfortunately not all of the catalogues are currently available. 

Personally I think that yours does have a 1950's headbadge.


----------



## Jesper (Feb 6, 2022)

@dnc1 I kind of meant that it might possibly be an early 50s headbadge (I couldn't edit for some reason upon proofing when I posted; finally edited 24hrs later). I certainly don't know, but I have seen a different badge on a circa mid 50s bike. Too bad the catalog images are not detailed enough to discern that feature. I have not been researching the "newer" Automotos; all my French bikes are circa 1930s so I need to brush up on their history.

@juvela thanks for the Simplex image; I really had not looked at the RD since no detailed photo. It would help date the bike if original. I can only see part of the outer cage plate which appears to be one of the "Tour de France" model styles. I'd have to dig mine out to compare it, if memory serves mine doesn't have a fancy cover plate (I can't make out what Manuel's bike has).


----------



## dnc1 (Feb 7, 2022)

'Automoto' were purchased by a subsidiary of 'Peugeot' in around 1959 and ceased production of own brand products in 1962/3.
Presumably the brand is still owned by the 'Stellantis' conglomerate.


----------



## Fritz Katzenjammer (Feb 7, 2022)

Need more pictures, please oh please.

modern bikes do miss out on the details. That head set is so nice.


----------



## Jesper (Feb 21, 2022)

I checked my stock of old badges to see the difference. Aside from color scheme (at least what's left on mine) it is the same. I believe it was from an early 50s model (owner replaced theirs with a better example). I have seen a different, although similar, variant that has different lettering and alternate graphics (still darn close though!).

My "new" badge:





Alternate version; I think earlier (sometime in the 40s) than the above example:



(Photo credit: ads of old)


----------



## juvela (Feb 22, 2022)

-----

is anyone familiar with the heraldric device seen at the bottom of this headplate?

the spheroid item appears it may be intended to represent a fruit

alternately it may be intended to represent a king or queen's Sovereign's Orb of office, part of a set of crown jewels as here -











there are some family crests which include a fruit image...

there is likely to be a proper heraldric term for the crossed leaves(?) which frame it

-----


----------



## Jesper (Feb 23, 2022)

@juvela , I had thought that it was a pineapple or ananas symbolizing luxury (not hospitality). Not sure what the crossed boughs mean (if that is what they are!; possibly antlers?). Other possibilities: hops fruit, or artichoke? What would their meaning be? I thought the clover had to do with the 3 main developers of the company years after it was initially established. I think there were 4 actual founders before the Automoto name came into being. I know there is a good history of the company. Maybe already linked here? Yup, @dnc1 has it linked on the previous page. I need to read it again. The 3 earliest badges have no "fruit" symbol, only the clovers, and those badges were during and after their prime racing successes.

Here is the badge I think that came after my 30s example. Located on velobase; as mounted to the head tube; wish they showed the whole tube so I could see the lugs. Still just clovers. It is described as a 1930s badge. It is definitely prior to the examples shown in my previous post. Considering they used at least 7 badges during their history you would think that it would help to date these bikes better; but no one seems to have definitive data (in general) as to the actual year of their bike's manufacture. I would like to see some catalogues or brochures that have good clear images of the badges, but so far I really haven't see anything that really helps. I will take photos of the one (maybe 2) original brochure I have; I'm not sure if it has a date on it or not.




Photo Credit: VeloBase User martl


----------



## dnc1 (Feb 23, 2022)

The leaves look like interpretations of 'Acanthus' foliage, a classical symbol first used in ancient Greece and often representing immortality or rebirth, but they also bear some similarities to Artichoke foliage.
This 'Acanthus' motif was still popular during the 'Art Nouveau' period which preceded 'Art Deco'.

The fruit symbol looks more like a Strawberry to me. The Strawberry can also symbolise rebirth. 

Perhaps the company had relaunched after a difficult period?


----------



## dnc1 (Feb 23, 2022)

There are some 18 catalogues and extracts available to view on forum 'Tontonvelo' plus many period newspaper articles,advertisements and price lists etc.
@Jesper, but you have to trawl through 34 pages to find them.


----------



## dnc1 (Feb 23, 2022)

There are 19 different 'Automoto' headbadges shown on the 'Tontonvelo' list of marques headbadges.
Only 3 of them featuring the curious design in question. You've featured two of them above @Jesper, here is the third.....





...this version suggests an armorial origin,  perhaps a coat of arms of one of the founders, or more likely to me, a city/town.


----------



## dnc1 (Feb 23, 2022)

Just as I surmised, it bears strong similarities to the coat of arms of the city of St. Etienne, home of 'Automoto' through most of their existence.....




...so they are Palm leaves, not Acanthus, but the 'fruit' remains a mystery.

The clue for me was that their earliest badges feature the name of the city, which for those who are unaware, is one of the traditional centres of bicycle manufacturing in France.....


----------



## Jesper (Feb 23, 2022)

With 19 badges (and counting?) it should make it even easier to date these bikes if there wasn't overlap or use of different badges during a model year, but on different models. I looked up the palm leaves significance and it means "victory with integrity", or at least victory. Based on the Greek goddess Nike, winged goddess of victory. That certainly makes sense, as does the St Etienne coat of arms. So we still need to unravel the 'fruit' mystery; maybe a pinecone? I wonder if the Tonton velo folks know?


----------



## juvela (Feb 24, 2022)

-----

Who knew?!?!

A discussion of old rusty bicycles heads down a sideroad into matters heraldric.   🤔 


-----


----------



## Jesper (Feb 28, 2022)

Per the Tonton Velo folks my badge is circa 1947; the other example in my post is circa 1941; but they showed no year info for the bike in question here. I had seen that chainwheel for sale listed as 30s --50s on ebay so no help there.


----------

