# 1939-1941 CWC Four Gills



## Freqman1 (May 16, 2018)

Bob Charnley started a thread  https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/cleveland-welding-4-gill-bikes.27308/#post-146457   back in 2012 on Four Gills in general. I would like to focus this thread strictly on the '39-41 RMS/Model A aka Four Gill bikes. If you don't know what a Four Gill is, think it is a variety of fish, or think any CWC tank bike might be a Four Gill then please contact me before posting so we can keep this one on track. 

If you have additional 1937 RMS info please post here https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1937-roadmaster-supreme-bug-eye.57458/

If you have additional 1938 RMS info please post here https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1938-y-frame-road-master-supreme-info.35915/

The prewar Cleveland Welding Company Roadmaster Supremes are surprisingly uncommon. The '37 "Bug Eye" and '38 RMS both feature the exotic "Y" frame as well as curved cranks. For 1939 CWC retained the "Four Gill" or "Scimitar" tank introduced on the '38 model but with a more conventional frame and standard straight crank. For 1940 CWC dropped the RMS designation and called the top-of-the-line model the "Model A". The '39 model can be distinguished visually by the fender mount light(s) whereas the '40/41 models had a ball light mount on the fork crown.

So the goal here is to document the '39-41 bikes. I'll start with the ones I know of and past or current owners can chime in with any additional information. I'm pretty sure some of these projects are now restored so if you have serial numbers this will prevent duplication. Thanks, Shawn

First up former 1939 RMS Mark P. bike badged as a Western Flyer. Notice the different rack and dual Persons Reflecto lights. All of these I have seen have been in the rust/cream color combo.





Next another 1939. I'm not sure who owns this bike but looks like a @prewarbikes4sale photo. I question the light arrangement on this bike.




Next a nice original '39 formerly owned by @saladshooter




I believe this '39 project may have been restored by Mark W. and is now owned by @auto1cycle2 and is blue and white.




This restored '39 WF I believe is currently owned by @whizzer kid




This restored '39 I believe owned by @Rambler




Not shown is a Ted Lusher restored blue/white '39 possibly still owned by @fordsnake

Restored '40/41 owned by me-- @Freqman1 Has a "H" serial which was late '40/early '41




A nicely done custom paint '40/41 owned by @Howard Gordon




This Packard badged '41 on Nostalgic.net




This '40/41 project @fatbike ? Would like to know if this bike was ever restored




This nice original '40 owned by @JAF/CO


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## Freqman1 (May 16, 2018)

I know @Kstone has one to add! I can't wait to see it posted here. V/r Shawn


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## fordmike65 (May 16, 2018)

Since there are a couple Western Flyer badged 4-gills in this list, ok if I post the original catalog page?



Not mine, but "borrowed" off the interwebs for the Cabe.


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## Krakatoa (May 16, 2018)

Mike,

That WF catalog scan is amazing!


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## Freqman1 (May 16, 2018)

fordmike65 said:


> Since there are a couple Western Flyer badged 4-gills in this list, ok if I post the original catalog page?
> View attachment 808179
> Not mine, but "borrowed" off the interwebs for the Cabe.



Any info relating to the '39-41 Four Gill bikes is welcomed. V/r Shawn


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## charnleybob (May 16, 2018)

#5 has moved west.


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## charnleybob (May 16, 2018)




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## CWCMAN (May 16, 2018)

Bob,
post #1 already has a picture of the restored WF four gill.

The other, although a four gill tank, is the 38 Supreme "Y" frame which has a dedicated thread. Link above on post #1

I believe Shawn wanted to start this thread to document the known 39-41 four gill bikes.

The bare metal WF four gill belongs to Jeff Guyer.


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## CWCMAN (May 16, 2018)

This is one that I have a picture of. I don't know who owns this bike though. This brings the count to 14


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## catfish (May 16, 2018)

I think the four gill tanks started out by mistake. The guy who was stamping the gills into the three gill tanks, goofed up and added a fourth one by mistake.... And to cover it up he just kept making them that way......


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## charnleybob (May 16, 2018)




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## catfish (May 16, 2018)

charnleybob said:


> View attachment 808462




Come on Bob. Show all of them.


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## Freqman1 (May 16, 2018)

charnleybob said:


> View attachment 808462



So do you own this one Bob? Is it a different bike from any already posted? V/r Shawn


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## charnleybob (May 16, 2018)

CWCMAN said:


> Bob,
> post #1 already has a picture of the restored WF four gill.
> 
> The other, although a four gill tank, is the 38 Supreme "Y" frame which has a dedicated thread. Link above on post #1
> ...







Oh, ok, I'll stop posting pictures then.


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## Autocycleplane (May 16, 2018)

These are cool bikes, thanks to all for the education.


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## CWCMAN (May 16, 2018)

Post away Bob. Just trying to document the 39-41

The 38 supreme is a different animal in my opinion.

Bob's post brings it to 15


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## catfish (May 16, 2018)

I know a non caber that has at least four. He might even have more than that.


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## fordmike65 (May 16, 2018)

catfish said:


> I know a non caber that has at least four. He might even have more than that.


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## catfish (May 16, 2018)

fordmike65 said:


>




There are a lot of old school people that don't use the internet.


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## fordmike65 (May 16, 2018)

catfish said:


> There are a lot of old school people that don't use the internet.



I think many of us forget that. There are probably 3x the amount of bikes out there that most Cabe members have never even heard of.


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## catfish (May 16, 2018)

fordmike65 said:


> I think many of us forget that. There are probably 3x the amount of bikes out there that most Cabe members have never even heard of.




At least that many.


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## Freqman1 (May 16, 2018)

This thread is not to debate about how many bikes may exist or conjecture as to their development but about documenting the 1939-1941 bikes only. V/r Shawn


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## szathmarig (May 16, 2018)

I got one in my storage in pieces in a box. I'll post it once I put it together.


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## JAF/CO (May 17, 2018)

Serial # D6xxxxx  38/39


James Frazier (209) 481-9464
jfkiller53@aol.com


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## JAF/CO (May 17, 2018)

Here are. 3 more I have
Serial # all start with “H”


James Frazier (209) 481-9464
jfkiller53@aol.com


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## JAF/CO (May 17, 2018)

This nice original '40 owned by @JAF/CO
View attachment 808172[/QUOTE]

This bikes serial # Exxxxx


James Frazier (209) 481-9464
jfkiller53@aol.com


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## Kstone (May 17, 2018)

Unst unst unst unst... 


 



Finished pics coming this weekend.


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## szathmarig (May 22, 2018)

Here's one for sale on Ebay, with WD front brake. Incorrect light, chain guard, brake lever, grips...etc. Extra holes in frame.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-19...161542?hash=item36327b16c6:g:18oAAOSwl5VbAMbV


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## Freqman1 (May 23, 2018)

szathmarig said:


> Here's one for sale on Ebay, with WD front brake. Incorrect light, chain guard, brake lever, grips...etc. Extra holes in frame.
> http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=232775161542



Thanks!


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## szathmarig (May 25, 2018)

Here's another one. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/roadmaster-supreme-bicycle-gill-162927715


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## Freqman1 (May 25, 2018)

From the Ebay ad: 1940 4 Gill supreme. Allstate tires,Morrow &ND hubs ,Sweet Presons original seat . Rare reflector badge .Sweet Torrington scripted cross bars . . Pedals are rechromed original but the Script is faint.One small chip in white on top bar. I can touch up for winning bidder as I painted the bike but didn't want to look deceptive like I was hiding es with reproduction tank. Email any questions. Actual shipping charged. Ebay makes sellers put a price in for shipping so you might pay more or less depending on distance.Other I will credit back 3% of sale price if Paytheif is bypassed. Ive added a pic with the tank on due to numerous requests,yes it fits perfectly!


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## Kstone (May 26, 2018)

H49115 with "42" stamped below it


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## jlively970 (Jan 25, 2019)

What you know about serial # H14894 from a claimed 1941 CWC Roadmaster?  thx


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## fordmike65 (Jan 25, 2019)

jlively970 said:


> What you know about serial # H14894 from a claimed 1941 CWC Roadmaster?  thx



I'd start a new thread with pics since this thread is about a specific model. Looking forward to seeing it. Welcome.


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## OSCAR...N... (Jan 26, 2019)

catfish said:


> I think the four gill tanks started out by mistake. The guy who was stamping the gills into the three gill tanks, goofed up and added a fourth one by mistake.... And to cover it up he just kept making them that way......







Good idea thanks to that guy mistake in (1939/1941) brilliant........


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## OSCAR...N... (Jan 26, 2019)

JAF/CO said:


> View attachment 809036
> Serial # D6xxxxx  38/39
> 
> 
> ...






Nice Jim.....


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## OSCAR...N... (Jan 26, 2019)

Kstone said:


> H49115 with "42" stamped below it
> 
> 
> View attachment 814333View attachment 814338View attachment 814332View attachment 814334View attachment 814335View attachment 814336







Uuuuuuuyyyyyy this one love the CoooooLooooooorrrr Combo & more the H.badge......


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## OSCAR...N... (Jan 26, 2019)

Kstone said:


> H49115 with "42" stamped below it
> 
> 
> View attachment 814333View attachment 814338View attachment 814332View attachment 814334View attachment 814335View attachment 814336







Uuuuuuuyyyyyy this one love the CoooooLooooooorrrr Combo & more the H.badge......


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## szathmarig (May 16, 2020)

Here's mine.


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## Scribble (Aug 13, 2020)

Here's mine 1940 Fleet Wing badged 4Gill 






Before






#F89360 

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/very-sad-prewar-cwc-supreme.161608/

Build thread 

Big thanks to @CWCMAN & @szathmarig with parts and knowledge ! They helped bring this corpse back to life.


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## Hawthornecrazy (Sep 26, 2020)

Serial number D73270. This is an uncirculated bike from out east. The gentleman I purchased it from has had it in his house since 1989 when he received it free from a lady he did some work for. He told me he had gotten two of them at that time and gave one away. Oops. 
First thing I checked for when I received it was the original paint, there was none. It was taken down to the metal and primed then painted red and white. 
When I removed the paint from the fenders and tank I could see the original paint pattern plain as day even the scallops on the frame are there. I had planned on at least painting the fenders but when I found that original pattern I figured this is as close to original as I’m going to get and left it alone. I painted over the Western Flyer on the tank with a burnt orange and cleared over everything. 
Now the guard has left a perfect circle around the frame where both mounts are. Telling me it was on the bike from day one when it left the store and had preserved the original paint under it until it was repainted. I know the catalog shows the wrap around guard but doesn’t seem to be the case here. It also has the art deco stem that would be hard to believe that it was ever changed out considering everything else is as it should be. The rear fender brace rivets were barely holding on so I put two bolts in instead.
The bike itself is very clean not pitted or cracked no repairs it will be a great candidate for a restoration some day maybe.
Whatever the case there it is and I am very happy to have it.

Thanks for checking it out. 








What it is starting to look like now. Need lenses for the front lights I sent the seat in today for a new cover. I do have the rear rack but haven’t gotten that far yet (maybe tomorrow). It is missing the rear light. Need pedals yet also.


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## saladshooter (Sep 26, 2020)

Great find Chad congrats! That is sweet!


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## stezell (Sep 27, 2020)

Hawthornecrazy said:


> Serial number D73270. This is an uncirculated bike from out east. The gentleman I purchased it from has had it in his house since 1989 when he received it free from a lady he did some work for. He told me he had gotten two of them at that time and gave one away. Oops.
> First thing I checked for when I received it was the original paint, there was none. It was taken down to the metal and primed then painted red and white.
> When I removed the paint from the fenders and tank I could see the original paint pattern plain as day even the scallops on the frame are there. I had planned on at least painting the fenders but when I found that original pattern I figured this is as close to original as I’m going to get and left it alone. I painted over the Western Flyer on the tank with a burnt orange and cleared over everything.
> Now the guard has left a perfect circle around the frame where both mounts are. Telling me it was on the bike from day one when it left the store and had preserved the original paint under it until it was repainted. I know the catalog shows the wrap around guard but doesn’t seem to be the case here. It also has the art deco stem that would be hard to believe that it was ever changed out considering everything else is as it should be. The rear fender brace rivets were barely holding on so I put two bolts in instead.
> ...



Looking good Chad I'm glad it found you! I'm glad the chevrons and other details were etched into the metal.


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## John G04 (Sep 27, 2020)

Hawthornecrazy said:


> Serial number D73270. This is an uncirculated bike from out east. The gentleman I purchased it from has had it in his house since 1989 when he received it free from a lady he did some work for. He told me he had gotten two of them at that time and gave one away. Oops.
> First thing I checked for when I received it was the original paint, there was none. It was taken down to the metal and primed then painted red and white.
> When I removed the paint from the fenders and tank I could see the original paint pattern plain as day even the scallops on the frame are there. I had planned on at least painting the fenders but when I found that original pattern I figured this is as close to original as I’m going to get and left it alone. I painted over the Western Flyer on the tank with a burnt orange and cleared over everything.
> Now the guard has left a perfect circle around the frame where both mounts are. Telling me it was on the bike from day one when it left the store and had preserved the original paint under it until it was repainted. I know the catalog shows the wrap around guard but doesn’t seem to be the case here. It also has the art deco stem that would be hard to believe that it was ever changed out considering everything else is as it should be. The rear fender brace rivets were barely holding on so I put two bolts in instead.
> ...




Thats some amazing patina! Never seen paint leave shadows of where it used to be on a bike like that before


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## OSCAR...N... (Sep 28, 2020)

Nice.!!! Find. & linda, linda. 


(Bicicleta ). Congrats..


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Dec 13, 2020)

Here's another 4 gill , was found in a barn. There's no headbadge to the bike it was missing. Serial number starts with a G. I don't believe the fork is correct to the bike. But again I'm no expert. Solid tank and bike. Appears to have been red in color at some point. There's a horn button in the tank  , with battery tray and a switch. But the front fender has no holes for fender light nor does the truss plate have any holes in it for headlights. Info would be cool on this bike!


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## Freqman1 (Dec 13, 2020)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> Here's another 4 gill , was found in a barn. There's no headbadge to the bike it was missing. Serial number starts with a G. I don't believe the fork is correct to the bike. But again I'm no expert. Solid tank and bike. Appears to have been red in color at some point. There's a horn button in the tank  , with battery tray and a switch. But the front fender has no holes for fender light nor does the truss plate have any holes in it for headlights. Info would be cool on this bike!
> View attachment 1318935
> 
> View attachment 1318937
> ...



I agree fork is probably wrong from what I can see. Likely had a set up like my bike


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Dec 13, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> I agree fork is probably wrong from what I can see. Likely had a set up like my bike
> 
> View attachment 1319325
> 
> ...


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## Freqman1 (Dec 13, 2020)

Yep, you’ll see swan forks with the headlight provision. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Dec 14, 2020)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> Here's another 4 gill , was found in a barn. There's no headbadge to the bike it was missing. Serial number starts with a G. I don't believe the fork is correct to the bike. But again I'm no expert. Solid tank and bike. Appears to have been red in color at some point. There's a horn button in the tank  , with battery tray and a switch. But the front fender has no holes for fender light nor does the truss plate have any holes in it for headlights. Info would be cool on this bike!
> View attachment 1318935
> 
> View attachment 1318937
> ...



Judging by the rack and chain ring I highly suspect that bike was originally badged as a Western Flyer. V/r Shawn


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## ozzie (Sep 19, 2021)

I am interested to know if a different front fender is used for a 39-40 4 gill with a shockmaster fork to the 4 gill with a swan fork.


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## Drzdave58 (Sep 20, 2021)

Do you guys ever ride these beautifully restored bikes on a regular basis or are they primarily display pieces?


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## ozzie (Sep 20, 2021)

I am building a '39 to ride. I have 12 bikes and ride all of them.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 20, 2021)

Drzdave58 said:


> Do you guys ever ride these beautifully restored bikes on a regular basis or are they primarily display pieces?



Uh yep! Riding is the best part of collecting to me. As I own about 70 bikes I wouldn't say they are all ridden regularly because I try to ride a different one each ride. All three of these Supremes are restored and the '38 won Classic Bike of the Year at Ann Arbor a few years ago --Strucel restoration but that doesn't stop me from enjoying these bikes. As the Hurricane Coaster can attest the Bug Eye (yea I know not a Four Gill!) has been down the eight story parking garage at speed! V/r Shawn


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## ozzie (Sep 20, 2021)

@Freqman1 would you know if there is a stencil kit for painting the 4 gill frame with the straight downtube?


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## Freqman1 (Sep 20, 2021)

ozzie said:


> @Freqman1 would you know if there is a stencil kit for painting the 4 gill frame with the straight downtube?



None that I know of. I had another bike with the fenders and got a tracing off an original bike for the frame. V/r Shawn


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## ozzie (Sep 20, 2021)

Thanks for the reply. Stunning bikes you have there and nice to hear you ride them.


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## mrg (Sep 20, 2021)

Springer fender is different


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## ozzie (Sep 20, 2021)

Thanks, thought as much


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## mrg (Sep 20, 2021)

No mounting hole in center, just a square dent for rubber grommet to ride in


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## ozzie (Aug 4, 2022)

This is my rat 4 gill. I bought the frame and some of the original parts from the bike from @szathmarig. I believe the serial number indicates it was built in ‘39. I chose to build it with a swan fork from a lady’s bike instead of the original shockmaster as I prefer rigid forks. The fenders and chain guard are also from a lady’s bike (thanks @Krakatoa).

It rides great and is a credit to the bloke who designed the frame with geometry that defies its age. Its fast too with its 7 speed Nexus hub and high pressure  tires. I’m sure its the only 4 gill in Australia.


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## ozzie (Aug 24, 2022)

Frame number below.


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Aug 28, 2022)

Found this 4 gill all American badged bicycle, was sitting in a barn for many years. Tried to get to the serial but seams to have a lot of house paint on it. Under the fenders the original paint is red!


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## Freqman1 (Aug 28, 2022)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> Found this 4 gill all American badged bicycle, was sitting in a barn for many years. Tried to get to the serial but seams to have a lot of house paint on it. Under the fenders the original paint is red!
> View attachment 1686626
> 
> View attachment 1686627
> ...



Serial number George? Like Brant said your killing it lately! V/r Shawn


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## bikesnbuses (Aug 28, 2022)

> > !!!! NICE !!!!! <<  😱😎


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## Oilit (Aug 28, 2022)

Well at least now I know it's in good hands. Congratulations again!









						The good deals don't last long, Part II | Stuff on eBay, Craigslist, Facebook etc.
					

This was on Facebook last Friday for $400.00 listed as an "antique bicycle", by Saturday night it was gone. If someone on here got it, congratulations! I'm still mopping up tears.




					thecabe.com


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