# Headtube slop issues...I can't figure out why....



## jd56 (Jun 15, 2015)

I have rebuilt a number of bikes since my introduction to this addiction.
And many headtube bearing and race cup marrying.  But, I have two bikes that are just not working right.
The two are the 46 Huffman and other is my most recent project, Roadmaster built Fleetwood. 
Both had the headtube / fork bearings and frame equipped cups included. No added or replacement parts by me.
The Huffman may have had the bearings replaced as it was found as a frankenbike. 
But, the Fleetwood looked to have the OG bearings.
After cleaning both the headtube cups and bearings then repacking all with grease, after reinstalling the fork and installing the top adjustable race, I have slop...meaning the fork still rocks back and forth within the headtube. 
I can eliminate the slop by tightening down the top race but, the fork now has drag and is too tight to be functional. 
What hey am I doing wrong.?
Maybe I need larger bearings?
Guys I'm stumped. 
Again no missing parts. Fork, bearing, headtube, top bearing then the top race....that's all there is.

No need to mention that
I'm an idiot [emoji15]  but, any logical and constructive explanation and resolution is welcomed.

It's all about the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?


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## Dale Alan (Jun 15, 2015)

When it binds can you tell if it has cup/race contact or the bearings not riding where they should ? Were they rideable bikes when you tore them down ?Just wondering if they could have been a mixture of headset parts ?


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## rustjunkie (Jun 15, 2015)

jd56 said:


> ...after reinstalling the fork and installing the top adjustable race, I have slop...meaning the fork still rocks back and forth within the headtube.
> I can eliminate the slop by tightening down the top race but, the fork now has drag and is too tight to be functional.




You'll have play with only the top race installed. With the top nut loose or removed the race will rock on the steer tube threads.


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## Dale Alan (Jun 15, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> You'll have play with only the top race installed. With the top nut loose or removed the race will rock on the steer tube threads.




Good observation,I missed that part . Top nut installed,problem solved.


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## jd56 (Jul 2, 2015)

All the parts reinstalled came with the bike. 
This bike was not rideable when I got it.
If the top race is tightened down enough to eliminate the slop or rocking of the fork tube within the headtube, the fork is now too tight and binds resulting with difficulty turning the front wheel. Loosen it enough so it don't bind and steer then there is slop.
I'm thinking the bearing is the incorrect size or someone changed the top cup.
I'll be tearing it apart soon as I do love this bike and want to ride it.
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. 

It's all about the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?


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## rustjunkie (Jul 2, 2015)

Pictures?


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## partsguy (Jul 2, 2015)

Since it was a frankenbike, I'd replace the entire headset. If you're having these problems, it's a mixture of parts jammed in there.


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## Ranger Dan (Jul 2, 2015)

If the balls are mounted in retainers, might you have inverted one of them when you installed?


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## vincev (Jul 2, 2015)

Recheck the retainers to make sure one of them are not installed upside down.


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## Schwinn499 (Jul 2, 2015)

Give my ex-wife a call, she knows everything there is to know about sloppy head...tubes.


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## bairdco (Aug 29, 2015)

Is the fork race the correct size and fits tight with no slop? 

I've had many bikes with what appear to be original headsets, but had to mix and match cups, bearings, etc from my box-o-headset stuff to make them work right.

Also, cups need to fit tight. If you can push them in by hand, they're too loose.

And if a bike's been ridden for years with a loose headset, the cups and even the headtube can become worn, causing slop.


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## scrubbinrims (Aug 29, 2015)

Could be bearing size JD, would have to see it...chances are cups are original.
For whatever reason, if I install the bearing into the bottom headset cup then install the fork it works better than loading the fork race with the bearing and installing the fork.
Chris


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## bikewhorder (Aug 29, 2015)

Schwinn499 said:


> Give my ex-wife a call, she knows everything there is to know about sloppy head...tubes.




What's her phone number?


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## the tinker (Aug 30, 2015)

I have had this problem also.  Got the frame all painted,start getting it together and issues like this appear. 
I went and quickly grabbed a handful of cups and lined them up as shown . Every one is slightly different as you can see. some rounded, some square, some higher ....lower. what also is different is the bearing size and how deeply they set into the cups.
Very tempting when redoing a bike that has bad looking rusted cups to replace it with better looking ones we have at hand. We don't know if previous owners switched cups or bearings.
Also is the fact on an older bike that head tube on the frame takes a beating. Those cups may not have been in there that tight to begin with.
Sometimes the cups themselves want to rotate a bit when assembled, even though you are sure you have the right one. I solve this by using a chisel as shown to put at least 3 small nicks in the top flange of the cups to make them fit more tightly in the head tube.

Also it's no secret that the tinker is a pig.... and frequently gets his parts mixed up as he has many projects going at once.
It helps to LABLE things.......:o


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## bikewhorder (Aug 30, 2015)

Yeah it pays to be neurotic about keeping your parts organized when you have more than one project going on.  I've found that there is surprising little interchange of bearings and bearing races even within the same manufacturer.  If your cups feel tight in the head tube then your problem is in the bearings or the top and bottom races that slide or thread on the fork. They are pretty low tech but if the parts are wrong or worn out it will never work.


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## dougfisk (Sep 23, 2015)

scrubbinrims said:


> ...For whatever reason, if I install the bearing into the bottom headset cup then install the fork it works better than loading the fork race with the bearing and installing the fork.
> Chris




Chris:  This is because the bearing assembly, by force of gravity, is settling down as far as the retainer will allow, onto that lower race.  The lower race gets wider, larger diameter, the lower it goes.  The balls are rolling down and outward on the 45 degree ramp to the outer limits that the retainer will allow.  At this point the balls are forming a circle who's diameter is larger than the cup you want to insert them into.


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## Dale Alan (Sep 23, 2015)

dougfisk said:


> Chris:  This is because the bearing assembly, by force of gravity, is settling down as far as the retainer will allow, onto that lower race.  The lower race gets wider, larger diameter, the lower it goes.  The balls are rolling down and outward on the 45 degree ramp to the outer limits that the retainer will allow.  At this point the balls are forming a circle who's diameter is larger than the cup you want to insert them into.




+1
You nailed it.


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## scooter_trasher (Nov 19, 2015)

Schwinn499 said:


> Give my ex-wife a call, she knows everything there is to know about sloppy head...tubes.



Can you post a pic, has she got of lot of ex-hubby-money to blow?


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## scooter_trasher (Nov 19, 2015)

jd56 said:


> I have rebuilt a number of bikes since my introduction to this addiction.
> And many headtube bearing and race cup marrying.  But, I have two bikes that are just not working right.
> The two are the 46 Huffman and other is my most recent project, Roadmaster built Fleetwood.
> Both had the headtube / fork bearings and frame equipped cups included. No added or replacement parts by me.
> ...



Sounds like you have a small balls problem  , may need bigger bearings, someone may have even put metrics in off a garbage picked bike


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## SirMike1983 (Nov 19, 2015)

This may already be solved, but did you try going up 1/32 on the size of the lower set of bearings? I've had two bikes do as you describe: the fork would tighten down, but still slip when force is applied.  If you really tightened down, you could stop the slippage, but the fork would not turn in the frame. The entire thing cleared up when I upped the lower bearing size by 1/32 in both cases. I assumed one of the prior owners used bearings of the wrong size during a headset rebuild. When I checked my spec notes against the bearings I pulled, I found that was the case.


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## jd56 (Nov 20, 2015)

Thanks for all the sugestions of possible causes and remedies. 
This bike was a mess when I got it. In fact it had been used as a utilitarian work bike at our local Naval Shipyard facilities.  As you can imagine this bike went through a few changes to keep it rolling.  
Skiptooth chainring with a standard pitch rear cog on the rear. Sporting a standard pitch chain.
So the possibility of the wrong size headset bearing is very probable. 
I reused those bearing. But, if the fork tube top race is tighten down enough to take out the slop (fork would move forward and backwards) the fork had difficulty turning. Loosen the top race and it spun freely but, the slop would return.
I will change out this bottom bearing to a larger one to see if this works.
Thanks again everyone....hopefully we have found the resolution. 


It's all about the Rescue / Revival and of course the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?

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