# Bluebird - Market Value of Bikes



## bikebozo (Dec 22, 2021)

This gun metal grey bluebird, appraised for 10-12,000, sold for 17,250 at Copake,this is for information to the people who are or were doubting. Class dismissed


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## catfish (Dec 22, 2021)

Thanks Walter


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## New Mexico Brant (Dec 22, 2021)

Stunning bicycle!  Thank you for posting Walter.


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## IngoMike (Dec 22, 2021)

Looks like original paint?


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## Boris (Dec 22, 2021)

bikebozo said:


> This gun metal grey bluebird, appraised for 10-12,000, sold for 17,250 at Copake,View attachment 1531924



When?


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## B607 (Dec 23, 2021)

17,250 and it doesn't even have a chain guard.  What were they thinking?


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## Freqman1 (Dec 23, 2021)

bikebozo said:


> This gun metal grey bluebird, appraised for 10-12,000, sold for 17,250 at Copake,this is for information to the people who are or were doubting. Class dismissedView attachment 1531924



The story didn’t end there. Later resold within the original Copake estimate. This was a restored bike. Of the five or six sales of restored Bluebirds I’ve been privy to the $10-12k range is where Ive seen these sell. If the bike currently available brings $25k I’ll seriously consider thinning my collection! V/r Shawn


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## higgens (Dec 23, 2021)

Yes I posted my bike at the I don’t want to sell it price but I seen a aerocycle and Bowden at that price and thought to myself a blue bird should be worth more then a ugly fiberglass 60s bike.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 23, 2021)

I don’t blame you. The Aerocycle was original paint. As far as I know the Bowden hasn’t sold-and I seriously doubt it will bring that kind of money. I’ve seen far more correct Bowdens sell for about half that. Seriously makes me want to think about floating some original paint bikes and see what the market holds. V/r Shawn


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## Boris (Dec 23, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> The story didn’t end there. Later resold within the original Copake estimate.



What year did it sell at Copake for $17,250?


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## saladshooter (Dec 23, 2021)

Was it advertised in the auction as original and deemed repaint after? This is very juicy stuff and want to know more!


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## Freqman1 (Dec 23, 2021)

saladshooter said:


> Was it advertised in the auction as original and deemed repaint after? This is very juicy stuff and want to know more!



My mistake this is a different bike. Was looking at this on my phone and didn’t blow it up. A Strucel restored grey bike sold for over $14k but a few years later was sold at somewhere between $10-12k. Sorry for the confusion. Another gray, original paint bike sold for more than $17k in the last year or so. V/r Shawn


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## CWCMAN (Dec 23, 2021)

I wonder where that puts the 37 CWC Supremes.

I would definitely put it in line with the AeroCycle and Blue Bird at the 20K plus price point.

I don't even consider any fiberglass middle weight bike in the same conversation.


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## dfa242 (Dec 23, 2021)

Boris said:


> What year did it sell at Copake for $17,250?



April 2013








						'bluebird' | April 20, 2013 Antique & Classic Bicycle Auction
					

Buy At Auction. Elgin Bluebird Bicycle at COPAKEAUCTION.HiBid.com - Page 1 of 1




					copakeauction.hibid.com


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## oskisan (Dec 23, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> My mistake this is a different bike. Was looking at this on my phone and didn’t blow it up. A Strucel restored grey bike sold for over $14k but a few years later was sold at somewhere between $10-12k. Sorry for the confusion. Another gray, original paint bike sold for more than $17k in the last year or so. V/r Shawn




Shawn: Thank you for clearing that up (you had me really concerned there for a bit)! I did my due diligence and verified this was an original with copake before I bought it from Mark Mattei (he is the one who bought it at Copake). Catfish has a pretty good knowledge on the history on this bike, but he also got this confused with another "gunmetal grey" one that sold recently.


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## Dave Stromberger (Dec 23, 2021)

I think the blue-chip bikes should bring a lot more money than they do. Look at other collectible hobbies. The holy grail baseball card, or comic book, or even look at high end vintage road bike stuff for a better example. Balloon tire stuff is CHEAP!


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## bikebozo (Dec 23, 2021)

I would not have posted this without it being true ,as far as Copake reported it, 17.250.00 plus the buyers premium and 8 % sales tax , . I do not understand why there was doubt ! There is no reason for Copake to fabricate there results , there is no reason to show an original paint example ,it is what it is, if it had been resold , I would have mentioned the rest of the story , this is a reasent sale


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## Whizzerpro (Dec 23, 2021)

Beautiful bicycle. Soon or later rare vintage bicycle are going to be difficult to buy because of their high monetary value.  A humble person couldn’t buy one of this bicycles in the 1930’s and if you add their rareness and old age make them so valuable today.


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## New Mexico Brant (Dec 23, 2021)

Dave Stromberger said:


> I think the blue-chip bikes should bring a lot more money than they do. Look at other collectible hobbies. The holy grail baseball card, or comic book, or even look at high end vintage road bike stuff for a better example. Balloon tire stuff is CHEAP!



Agreed!  Look at other collectibles and antiques and the top prices within individual categories.  Compare what political buttons, Star Wars figures, American stoneware, and on and on; American bicycles are completely undervalued.  There are reasons for this which has been touched on within this forum but not related to how the problems effect collector confidence.
Overall there has been a lack of scholarship in the field of American bicycle collecting (post 1895 period).  Scott’s McCaskey willingness to reprint John P’s old volumes are helpful but there are gaps we as a group need to fill in.  The old guard has hoarded literature to their personal advantage.  Few people have taken the time to go to museums/historical societies to really pin down questions that have been asked for a couple decades.  Yesterday I posted the German built Indian in the 12 Days of Christmas: even today we cannot say with confidence what year this bike was offered by Indian!   There must be an ad or mention in Indian Motocycle’s monthy publication to the dealers and enthusiasts during the late 1930’s.
It feels like the “old guard” jenky ways are faltering.  Just in the short time I have been on the CABE it is great to see our group knowledge growing, an increased willingness to share information, and connoisseurship levels improving.  I love it when a catalog or advertisement gets shared, members such as Jeff Kidder, Patric, Jesse, Bill Corbett, John A, and Walter offering tasty morsels of knowledge, (there are several others I am missing on this list), Shawn’s monographs, etc.  I truly regret the loss of Will @filmonger and his contributions; and others still alive who are off doing other things.  But we need to do more!


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## J-wagon (Dec 23, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Just in the short time I have been on the CABE it is great to see our group knowledge growing, an increased willingness to share information, and connoisseurship levels improving



Right on!


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## bikebozo (Dec 24, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> I don’t blame you. The Aerocycle was original paint. As far as I know the Bowden hasn’t sold-and I seriously doubt it will bring that kind of money. I’ve seen far more correct Bowdens sell for about half that. Seriously makes me want to think about floating some original paint bikes and see what the market holds. V/r bike



2021 august bike was sold ,


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## bikebozo (Dec 24, 2021)

Boris said:


> What year did it sell at Copake for $17,250?



2021 in august, look it up , learn-there is no reason for me to fabricate history, every one who tried to change the facts are wrong , . It is knowledge from the past events


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## bikebozo (Dec 24, 2021)

Boris said:


> What year did it sell at Copake for $17,250?



August 2021


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## bikebozo (Dec 24, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> The story didn’t end there. Later resold within the original Copake estimate. This was a restored bike. Of the five or six sales of restored Bluebirds I’ve been privy to the $10-12k range is where Ive seen these sell. If the bike currently available brings $25k I’ll seriously consider thinning my collection! V/r Shawn



NO it certainly did not


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## redline1968 (Dec 24, 2021)

What's painted surfaces?...I saw that in the disclosure.. does that mean 35s bring more😂


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## hzqw2l (Dec 24, 2021)

Dave Stromberger said:


> I think the blue-chip bikes should bring a lot more money than they do. Look at other collectible hobbies. The holy grail baseball card, or comic book, or even look at high end vintage road bike stuff for a better example. Balloon tire stuff is CHEAP!



True. 
Problem with bikes is there are no grading services to monetize the item.
Cards...comics...toys all have census information and attract "investors".
I for one am glad that bicycles haven't gone mainstream.


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## Boris (Dec 24, 2021)

bikebozo said:


> August 2021



Thank you.


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## vincev (Dec 24, 2021)

Lets hope bikes stay somewhat of an unknown hobby.You can still find that gem at a garage sale. Once a hobby hits the big time all the corrupt creatures infest the hobby and it becomes difficult to stay ahead of the scammers.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 25, 2021)

vincev said:


> Lets hope bikes stay somewhat of an unknown hobby.You can still find that gem at a garage sale. Once a hobby hits the big time all the corrupt creatures infest the hobby and it becomes difficult to stay ahead of the scammers.



We need to face the truth, this hobby will never go mainstream. It requires concentration,patience,hard work and sacrifice. Four traits that are seriously lacking in most people today, especially the younger crowd. The get your hands dirty attitude is nonexistent.


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## danfitz1 (Dec 25, 2021)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> We need to face the truth, this hobby will never go mainstream. It requires concentration,patience,hard work and sacrifice. Four traits that are seriously lacking in most people today, especially the younger crowd. The get your hands dirty attitude is nonexistent.



Not singling you out here, but it seems like thread after thread these days bashes the younger folks. Not sure where you take your sample data from, but my wife and I have 4 kids, 26-31 years old. They all have and continue to work hard and take on whatever challenge life brings their way. Same is true for a vast majority of their friends. Would love to debate. but I'm in Germany with my daughter and son in law who are both active duty, stationed at Ramstein. Hoping at least 1 of them isn't too lazy to get me back to Frankfort for my flight home tomorrow. I need to catch up on my sleep. Gets loud around here with all the C17's full of dedicated young people flying over at all hours of the day and night.


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## Duchess (Dec 25, 2021)

The laziness is with the quick-buck investor parasites ruining every other hobby and those people are much more likely to be older in order to have the money and boredom to commit to speculative, glorified hoarding. I do think laziness partly factors in to the reason bikes aren't so mainstream, though. Baseball cards and such are just a matter of locating and paying—not much to restore, there—and storage is much easier. Cars are the closest analog to bicycles, I think, and the parasites can consult investment experts or websites to see what models/years/trims/bodies are most valuable within their price range or are considered to be undervalued, have a car inspected, bought, and sent off to a restorer to be picked up a few years later all remotely and the rising values of them as more and more parasites flood the bubble market hoping to cash in at the lower end before it pops makes ever less impressive and more common older cars more cost effective to restore (I used to see all manner of interesting old cars on nice days, but now it's fairly rare to even see a TR6, though lame new lower-end exotics aren't hard to find). At the very top of the market, the 7-8 figure concours cars get international coverage even in non-industry specialized magazines that reach a very wide range of people, which bikes don't get. One of the most disappointing things I ever attended was the Pebble Beach Concours (the other was KMFDM, who just phoned it in that night, dammit). It seemed the majority of owners were just barely interested, un-knowledgable check-cutters merely there to wallet dick swing and hoping to get an award to increase the value of their investment and a lot of the crowd was infested with D-list celebrities trying to get noticed by C-listers. I think half of the people there were in a single episode of Law and Order. Even the highest end bicycles don't leave much room for profit if someone is paying locators and restorers to do everything for them. Which I would like to add that the bike collector obsession with original parts and paint even when they're completely unusable and 99% rust and disdain for even good repros keeps them less accessible. Sure, originality is valued in automobiles, but plenty of valuable concours cars are built off little more than a VIN plate and a scrap of metal (I remember reading about a dispute over 2 Jaguar D-Types that shared a VIN—one had been built off a found engine and some other parts and the other had been built from a wrecked chassis or something along those lines). Bikes require the careful restoration and locating of parts like cars, ever more expensive chrome in some cases, and are ultimately seen largely as being for children or spandex dorks. They don't have the same cultural significance or embody the nostalgic vision of an era in the way cars do and aren't as often wrapped around the kind of memories one tends to have when coming of age with a license—almost nobody has memories of picking up a date and feeling them up for the first time on their Schwinn, but a lot could be done in a $500 Subaru wagon. I can see a Duesenberg and day dream about offering my hand to Hedy Lamarr as she steps off the running board in front of some fancy restaurant filled with gangsters and classic film stars or making out with Yvonne DeCarlo in a Facel Vega, but even Pee Wee Herman would have trouble shoehorning a bicycle into fantasies like that. Bikes are also largely a solo experience as, even riding with a group, you're still separated. Even with tandems, you're sitting in line, not beside. Bikes are just kind of stuck where they are in a realm of more limited appeal, but I don't think it should be anything to lament. Do we really want parasite investors infesting this hobby, too? Sure, the value of what you already hold would go up, but you're closing the door to new people getting into the hobby because they really like old bikes and, when that happens and who's left to sell your beloved bike to?—parasites who park it in a storage facility with a bunch of others like the warehouse and Raiders of the Lost Ark? I certainly wouldn't pass up a massive check for something I bought for a lot less (like the Alfa Romeo Montreal I almost bought for $25k just before they bounced to around 6-figures), but you might want to ask what you're in it for. Me, I'm not a collector—I only have the one Iver Johnson I bought because I like the style, old-school quality, local history, and idea of riding something so old while the rest of my bikes are low-value customs—so that's my kind of outsider perspective on it.


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## Sayitsimple (Dec 25, 2021)

Take one to chyna and have it repoped and zee vvhere the value goes


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## bicyclebuff (Dec 25, 2021)

Shawn, We would love to see some of your fine collection when you decide to float them, I also thought about  doing the same, maybe take some of mine to mecum, in 2019 a schwinn grey ghost did 12,980.00 ,Alot cheaper to haul bikes than cars


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## redline1968 (Dec 25, 2021)

Like it or not where there's money there's going to be somebody listening ..i deal in antiques and collectibles like everything else prices go up prices go down on stuff including bikes.. most millennials don't even give a  crap about  these things.  They just sell it.. rich just care about worth and prestige... Makes me sick to see a real 69 ta firebird and the dude doesn't even know the option codes or how it's equipped..he just seems to float on its a ta  he has it and it's value...alas if you don't have the dough to play what can you say...the way of the world these days..live with it..


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## Rusthound (Dec 25, 2021)

You will not draw many investors in bicycle /parts as the rarer ones are already over priced (some badly).  "quick-buck investor parasites" use a new to invest ratio.  What that means is a bike that was 300 new now is 10/15K  is a very poor investment. So they leave them for few in the hobby who can afford them and brag to their buddies how much it's worth.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 25, 2021)

Rusthound said:


> You will not draw many investors in bicycle /parts as the rarer ones are already over priced (some badly).  "quick-buck investor parasites" use a new to invest ratio.  What that means is a bike that was 300 new now is 10/15K  is a very poor investment. So they leave them for few in the hobby who can afford them and brag to their buddies how much it's worth.



I’m not sure what was meant by your post but none of the high end ballooners were ever close to $300 bicycles and I can’t think of any of the people I know that have these bikes that consider themselves investors. I also haven’t heard any of these people bragging about the value of their bikes. What I have seen is passion, pride of ownership, and joy to have these bikes. My 2c. V/r Shawn


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## Rusthound (Dec 25, 2021)

My point was that bikes are a poor investment for "quick-buck investor parasites'  So the hobby stays inside it's self.   Which makes a poor investment for an "outsider".  However the prices at some point will get a correction. ask the vintage tractor guys.


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## John (Dec 26, 2021)

I think tractors is about the worst example of collecting you could use.


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## dasberger (Dec 26, 2021)

Bikes have a much wider appeal than tractors... Now thats not to say that in the coming years there may not be a flood of bikes into the market as some huge collections are liquidated but I think well documented original paint bikes will always be in demand


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## HEMI426 (Dec 26, 2021)

If you collect tractors you better have a big truck and a big trailer, I have friends that collect hit n miss engines and tractors, nothing goes anywhere without a big dually.


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## kreika (Dec 26, 2021)

These vintage bicycles are functional art and = priceless in my book. You can have your unopened toy figures, baseball cards sealed away for the ages, and comics you can never touch or you’ll lose a grade. I’ll hop on a vintage bike and ride it NFG and have a great time!


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## bikewhorder (Dec 26, 2021)

After reading this thread I think Ima dump all my bikes and put my money into vintage mobile homes.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 26, 2021)

bikewhorder said:


> After reading this thread I think Ima dump all my bikes and put my money into vintage mobile homes.



Run down single-wides that you can rent by the week. Now that’s an investment!


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## hzqw2l (Dec 26, 2021)

John said:


> I think tractors is about the worst example of collecting you could use.



Lol.
Right below Plates.


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## bikebozo (Dec 26, 2021)

Asking price-making a transaction =a long row to hoe, there are only a few people in orbit and on the CABE that will step up and buy a high end bike . . Look at the 2 who laughed at my offering of the 37 super streamline , ignorance displayed by laughter. I have sold lots of bicycles to non collectors -. A few machines you will search a lifetime expecting to find an example . It is cheaper to buy the special machines when offered , . I do not want to sell my 37, I realize how rare, and special it is . In fact , I hope to buy another one soon . Let the bashing begin


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## FICHT 150 (Dec 26, 2021)

Weirdly, at least one guy here just wants an old bike to ride, and really only for nostalgic reasons. I don’t care what it cost, or what it is worth-my heirs can fight about that.
I only need one, but, have a few more than that.

Ted


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## bikebozo (Dec 26, 2021)

Here is a great example of a fine ,high end bike no one has purchased , 8,950 in Nashville, Tn.


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## redline1968 (Dec 26, 2021)

I ride my bluebird but I'm afraid to get mugged with the homeless camps on every bike path...not that safe anymore


FICHT 150 said:


> Weirdly, at least one guy here just wants an old bike to ride, and really only for nostalgic reasons. I don’t care what it cost, or what it is worth-my heirs can fight about that.
> I only need one, but, have a few more than that.
> 
> Ted


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## littleman (Dec 26, 2021)

So nice 👍


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## FICHT 150 (Dec 26, 2021)

I just ride on it. I don’t need more than one. If a guy is 
really worried about what it is worth, I humbly submit he
has missed the whole point. Get a broker, buy into a fund,
and worry about that.
I’m going for a ride.

Ted


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## Freqman1 (Dec 26, 2021)

bikebozo said:


> Here is a great example of a fine ,high end bike no one has purchased , 8,950 in Nashville, Tn. View attachment 1534498



Not yet Walter but I know at least one guy working on it. Not saying this bike isn’t worth it and obviously finished to a high standard except there is a problem here. Do you know what’s wrong with this bike? If you’re gonna drop this kinda coin you should know what right looks like.


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## bikebozo (Dec 26, 2021)

What is wrong ? In my mind anything could be wrong under fancy paint , I really do not like restored examples , . I thought it would or should have streamline pedals ? Thanks


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## Freqman1 (Dec 26, 2021)

bikebozo said:


> What is wrong ? In my mind anything could be wrong under fancy paint , I really do not like restored examples , . I thought it would or should have streamline pedals ? Thanks



If you understand the differences between an Arrow and a Speedline you should see what the problem is. V/r Shawn


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## bikebozo (Dec 26, 2021)

Why not tell what the difference is ? The mystery I do not understand , ? I thought the CABE was excellant for sharing information , if it is not , I will stop , and do not see a reason or purpose ,TO visit here , except to grab a bike or 2 , when a nice piece slips under the radar. Thanks for any clue .


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## Freqman1 (Dec 26, 2021)

Speedline







Arrow




Look at the fenders. The paint scheme for Speedlines is different than Arrows--except with the surplus bikes then all bets are off but the bike you posted isn't a surplus model. My point is you need to know the flavor of the Kool-Aid before you part with your hard earned dollars. To some an incorrect paint scheme might not be that big of a deal for an almost $9k bike. For others it's a deal killer.


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## bikebozo (Dec 26, 2021)

Thanks I understand the purist point of the machines , . I appreciate the knowledge, ., my brain is in the early stuff before wood rim bicycles . My 37 streamline is done to my liking  , . Thanks for showing the community the difference. I think it is important to show how the cycles change, .You have put great effort in your collection being catalog correct , and that is important for historical reference.


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## bikebozo (Dec 27, 2021)

Yes, I know and understand there is a situation about the bike being purchased . Good luck with the transaction, whoever is the new owner.The posts show how dangerous the CABE is offering a bike in public . What happened to the good Ole days when you offer a bike and a purchase is made . Now people offer less, and it is counter offered more than the original asking price, trying to pry it out of a transaction. It happened to me when a Skylark was for sale for 400.00, I was going to get it , and some cabers offered 450.00 to save it for them until the weekend - 50.00 what a punk , so I got the Skylark for 450.00,


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## bikewhorder (Dec 27, 2021)

Delete.


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## bikewhorder (Dec 27, 2021)

If you got this one for $450 then that was a fraction of the fair market value and I'd not be complaining about having to pay a little more to the seller who was obviously clueless. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1936-elgin-skylark-3-500.115709/


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## bikebozo (Dec 27, 2021)

Not complaining at all , only telling the story about a transaction , the bike was promised to me and a caber tried to cut me out with a punk 50.00, lame amount , . If you want to game me , get it on , . I certainly know what is happening . The only amount that could of stopped it,is when there was no money to be made from the resell . When I bought the bluebird , I offered 1,500 ,bought it for 2,500, sold it for 9,500 , basic math , buy it sell it , . Now I wish ,I had both bikes to sit with my 37 super streamline ,. I know where a lot of bikes are , I am not worrying about any of it . I think it is funny watching the uproar.


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## rockabillyjay (Dec 27, 2021)

Like the streamilne, I recently saw a restored bluebird with the paint done incorrectly...total deal killer as a full repaint would be needed. I only look at original paint bikes anymore


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## tacochris (Dec 27, 2021)

*deleted*  My point didnt matter after I thought about it.


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## ricobike (Dec 27, 2021)

tacochris said:


> *deleted*  My point didnt matter after I thought about it.



that never stopped anyone here :-D


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## tacochris (Dec 27, 2021)

ricobike said:


> that never stopped anyone here :-D



Lol....touche.  
Only have so many words on this earth, might as well think before you speak.


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## OLD PSYCLE (Dec 27, 2021)

tacochris said:


> Lol....touche.
> Only have so many words on this earth, might as well think before you speak.



Darn it..just when the reading was getting good....I might as well go watch Jerry Springer instead then....


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## charnleybob (Dec 27, 2021)

A Strucel, Bob Rose, Dave Stromberger, a Verzaal, Chuck Rosa,  restored bike will be a good investment in the future.


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## danfitz1 (Dec 28, 2021)

charnleybob said:


> A Strucel, Bob Rose, Dave Stromberger, a Verzaal, Chuck Rosa,  restored bike will be a good investment in the future.



With all due respect to the 'restorers' mentioned, you're kidding yourself if you think any restored bicycle will be a good investment. Nice original unrestored examples will likely hold their value, but if you're looking at any of this as an investment, good luck to you and/or your heirs.


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## Nashman (Dec 28, 2021)

danfitz1 said:


> Not singling you out here, but it seems like thread after thread these days bashes the younger folks. Not sure where you take your sample data from, but my wife and I have 4 kids, 26-31 years old. They all have and continue to work hard and take on whatever challenge life brings their way. Same is true for a vast majority of their friends. Would love to debate. but I'm in Germany with my daughter and son in law who are both active duty, stationed at Ramstein. Hoping at least 1 of them isn't too lazy to get me back to Frankfort for my flight home tomorrow. I need to catch up on my sleep. Gets loud around here with all the C17's full of dedicated young people flying over at all hours of the day and night.



I also have 2 kids, Son 30, Daughter 23 who have a good work ethic and generally have respect for others and live by the golden rule. ( for those who don't know, it's "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"/treat people how you want to be treated).

I don't think it's fair to paint all young people with the same brush, but "entitled" is a word that rolls off my tongue pretty easy when I see and hear about a large percentage of ( well over 1/2) of today's youth/adolescents. The thing is, often it is the result of a lazy parent/s. It's easier to say "yes" than "no". It snowballs pretty quick.

Many parents ( yes well over 1/2) want to be loved and be a best friend and match the privileges of our kids peers. Another slippery slope. Discipline ( tough love) is generally not popular as a "modern parent." It's a reflection on a weaker society and overly "politically correct" in my humble opinion. No more failure, everyone passes. Pussy foot around it and will "go away". My late Father ( died at 93 last June) used to say "take the bull by the horns" among other old school cliches. "Guts and gumption" were common words, "grin and bear it", "buckle down", privilege was earned/not handed out. Now it's "close your eyes and run" or don't lift your head from your cell phone!!Take these pills and it will go away!!

 Example:  I live a block from my old high school ( Class of grads '75) and the "kids" park on our street ( school lot is full) as the majority of the 16-18 year old drive fancy cars or SUV's. When I attended that high school in the 70's there were less than a dozen kids who drove a car to school ( totally urban area). We walked or took public transit. These kids are driving Mercedes, Land Rovers, BMW's, Audi's etc. and often dump their McDonald's/Burger King garbage on our lawns. ( Yes, I have phoned over to the school, many times)

We live on a quiet Crescent, no sidewalks, curved with a speed limit of 30 mph ( too fast for the conditions) and many of them roar down the street with no respect for pedestrians or limits. They are spoiled. "Entitled". I think being your child's best friend is admirable, but not by selling your soul. In the end mutual respect is worth the short term pain, for long term gain. Sometimes children need to grow up ( or have their own kids) to deeply love and appreciate the parents and rules/discipline they resented so much. I think many of today's kids just need a good "kick in the pants".


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## Nashman (Dec 28, 2021)

tacochris said:


> Lol....touche.
> Only have so many words on this earth, might as well think before you speak.



Never stopped me?  Ha!! That "thinking" stuff is overrated.


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## Nashman (Dec 28, 2021)

Nashman said:


> Never stopped me?  Ha!! That "thinking" stuff is overrated.



Maybe an administrator could move comment #29, #30, and my #68 as it is kinda off topic, ( new thread?) but does tie in with value in todays market and future value for new collectors. Point is, many things of value are "handed out" to the newer generation without sacrifice of any work or thought of historical significance. Free rides are quickly forgotten.


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## Nashman (Dec 28, 2021)

danfitz1 said:


> With all due respect to the 'restorers' mentioned, you're kidding yourself if you think any restored bicycle will be a good investment. Nice original unrestored examples will likely hold their value, but if you're looking at any of this as an investment, good luck to you and/or your heirs.



I think restored anything is aok and original anything is usually better ( to most). The thing is, beauty and value is in the eye of the beholder. I think the sentimentality of original things is dying off ( as are the people) with the newer generation, as quite simply they can't relate it to anything in their lifetime. Bright and shiny/bling has an obvious appeal. We can't all afford an original keepsake and there is limited supply. ( a car, a bicycle, a tractor, a bread bag clip).

I for one have original examples of bicycles, vintage toys, cars, motorcycles, signs, juke box, coke machine, guitars etc..etc ....and some restorations, and even a few repops. They all have value to certain people ( me for one). How much value? It's what 2 people agree on what is a fair price to them, them alone. This DEAL/NO DEAL auction format on the Cabe is a good example, or other auctions on line or live.

I have bought more than a few well restored bicycles, some not done as well as I'd hoped, but still a decent example, and something I'm happy with. Lets assume there was profit for the seller on some of them. That was a good investment for them. I don't collect as an investment. I buy what I like and what I can afford. The economy and trends usually dictate the market size for anything. The state of the world right now financially is not great based on health concerns and all the negative spin off's. I think you all know what I'm talking about. Job loss, cash flow. Less travel. There will always be people with deep pockets, and speculators for quick buck spins.

I think ( my humble opinion) a well restored bicycle ( people named above#66, Bobby U. should be added) is a good investment. I'll attach a well restored 20" Schwinn Hornet Bobby U did up with some original paint parts. I didn't buy it as an investment, but I love it, it's well restored, rare, and I suspect if I was ever to sell it, I'd get my money back and have enjoyed it for years.






Not everyone likes "patina/barn finds/crusty" ( over used terms) and even a Frankenbike holds a certain charm if not misrepresented as "factory" original. I've said this before, that "original" is a factory nut and bolt/paint example, and they are few and far between. A hobby is a pastime to be enjoyed in whatever scale and depth a person wishes. To get caught up in what is best to invest, all is lost, and the fun is over.


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## Cooper S. (Dec 28, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Agreed!  Look at other collectibles and antiques and the top prices within individual categories.  Compare what political buttons, Star Wars figures, American stoneware, and on and on; American bicycles are completely undervalued.  There are reasons for this which has been touched on within this forum but not related to how the problems effect collector confidence.
> Overall there has been a lack of scholarship in the field of American bicycle collecting (post 1895 period).  Scott’s McCaskey willingness to reprint John P’s old volumes are helpful but there are gaps we as a group need to fill in.  The old guard has hoarded literature to their personal advantage.  Few people have taken the time to go to museums/historical societies to really pin down questions that have been asked for a couple decades.  Yesterday I posted the German built Indian in the 12 Days of Christmas: even today we cannot say with confidence what year this bike was offered by Indian!   There must be an ad or mention in Indian Motocycle’s monthy publication to the dealers and enthusiasts during the late 1930’s.
> It feels like the “old guard” jenky ways are faltering.  Just in the short time I have been on the CABE it is great to see our group knowledge growing, an increased willingness to share information, and connoisseurship levels improving.  I love it when a catalog or advertisement gets shared, members such as Jeff Kidder, Patric, Jesse, Bill Corbett, John A, and Walter offering tasty morsels of knowledge, (there are several others I am missing on this list), Shawn’s monographs, etc.  I truly regret the loss of Will @filmonger and his contributions; and others still alive who are off doing other things.  But we need to do more!



Plus there’s relatively few museums displaying bikes, and almost no media attention. Besides for American p*ckers theyd probably still be getting scrapped on mass


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## Cooper S. (Dec 28, 2021)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> We need to face the truth, this hobby will never go mainstream. It requires concentration,patience,hard work and sacrifice. Four traits that are seriously lacking in most people today, especially the younger crowd. The get your hands dirty attitude is nonexistent.



I guess @nick tures and I don’t exist


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## Nashman (Dec 28, 2021)

Cooper S. said:


> I guess @nick tures and I don’t exist



I think there are lots of great young people entering the hobby, many have been in it for years ( some on the Cabe, some not). Like I have said in other threads, I think many of the bicycles right up into the 80's are collectible to all sorts of people. Once mass produced, the quality and art sorta falls off the scale. I have over 20 bicycles ( pre-war and 1950's) and my girlfriend likes to ride a Custom 1980's beach cruiser I own. So be it. At least she rides. Generally, the hobby is made up of older people, no shot on younger new collectors of any type of bicycle. It's just a demographic reality. An age thing. We lived on our bicycles growing up, now not as many youth do. They live on their cell phones. To my late deceased parents and grandparents, bicycles were a life line. The fact they were often hand made/assembled by proud craftspeople worldwide and had style and function is part of the value historically and worth owning or admiring. Especially by us old goats!  Ha!!


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## bicyclebuff (Dec 28, 2021)

Nashman , well said you hit the nail on the head


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## bikebozo (Dec 28, 2021)

bikebozo said:


> Here is a great example of a fine ,high end bike no one has purchased , 8,950 in Nashville,,sorry for bringing the speedline into view , it seems to be a false ad , . A serious purchase was attempted and was ignored by the seller,. I will know better in the future to not use undocumented exchanges . My mission is to display factual information , . For historical reference,


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## Freqman1 (Dec 28, 2021)

Yep the guy flaked on both this bike and the Zep he had posted.


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## Lonestar (Dec 28, 2021)

Nashman said:


> I think there are lots of great young people entering the hobby, many have been in it for years ( some on the Cabe, some not). Like I have said in other threads, I think many of the bicycles right up into the 80's are collectible to all sorts of people. Once mass produced, the quality and art sorta falls off the scale. I have over 20 bicycles ( pre-war and 1950's) and my girlfriend likes to ride a Custom 1980's beach cruiser I own. So be it. At least she rides. Generally, the hobby is made up of older people, no shot on younger new collectors of any type of bicycle. It's just a demographic reality. An age thing. We lived on our bicycles growing up, now not as many youth do. They live on their cell phones. To my late deceased parents and grandparents, bicycles were a life line. The fact they were often hand made/assembled by proud craftspeople worldwide and had style and function is part of the value historically and worth owning or admiring. Especially by us old goats!  Ha!!



40 years from now...CACPE...Classic & Antique Cell Phone Exchange! Time to start saving those old iPhones... 😆🤣


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## Freqman1 (Dec 28, 2021)

Lonestar said:


> 40 years from now...CACPE...Classic & Antique Cell Phone Exchange! Time to start saving those old iPhones... 😆🤣



Got an iPhone 4 sitting on the shelf!


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## Nashman (Dec 28, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Got an iPhone 4 sitting on the shelf!



I finally broke down and got a cell phone.( I used one as a necessity of some jobs before I retired. I'm almost always using my laptop, but don't miss it much when I travel). *A flip phone*. It sits on the counter and buzzes music or something when my Daughter texts me. Texting her back is laughable, but I try. Email and actually getting some folks on their cell phones is becoming a lost effort now the rage is texts. I admire people who don't have a cell phone attached to their hip, hand, night table, dashboard unless they are tied to it for employment, or emergency.

I'm afraid the cell phone has deteriorated human contact while trying to expand it. Survey says that people feel more lonely and depressed and have less contact with friends and loved ones more now than ever before. I had an article I contributed to published a couple of years back about the uninhibited use of cell phones ( with camera's) in public change rooms/pools/poolside. Even school playgrounds. Noone cared until the article. Hopefully one or more pervs were stopped.




I was ( the health panic has stopped me going as I'm not worthy) a lap pool swimmer over 25 years and started getting creeped out when dudes had cell phones in the showers and locker areas/ and poolside. On weekends, often a Dad would bring their Daughters into the men's change rooms ( Mom was away/divorced/take turns..whatever) and we have swinging dicks walking around with their phones and total nudity of children of both sexes? WTF? Of course there were signs, but noone followed the rules. If I wandered around a change room with a 35mm camera, what then? Of course what's so important that a phone can't be left in the car, or anywhere other than a public/private space. Lots of rants for me today. Ha!!  If anyone wants to read the article I'll try to find it and PM. That's me in the purple glasses before my sex change!  Ha!


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## bikewhorder (Dec 28, 2021)

Vintage mobile home collecting is surprisingly affordable.


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## Nashman (Dec 28, 2021)

bikewhorder said:


> Vintage mobile home collecting is surprisingly affordable.
> 
> View attachment 1535931
> 
> ...



Tornado magnets from what I have seen. Bummer............


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## nick tures (Dec 28, 2021)

Cooper S. said:


> I guess @nick tures and I don’t exist



yes really, we are some of the younger people in it !!


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## Cooper S. (Dec 29, 2021)

Nashman said:


> I think there are lots of great young people entering the hobby, many have been in it for years ( some on the Cabe, some not). Like I have said in other threads, I think many of the bicycles right up into the 80's are collectible to all sorts of people. Once mass produced, the quality and art sorta falls off the scale. I have over 20 bicycles ( pre-war and 1950's) and my girlfriend likes to ride a Custom 1980's beach cruiser I own. So be it. At least she rides. Generally, the hobby is made up of older people, no shot on younger new collectors of any type of bicycle. It's just a demographic reality. An age thing. We lived on our bicycles growing up, now not as many youth do. They live on their cell phones. To my late deceased parents and grandparents, bicycles were a life line. The fact they were often hand made/assembled by proud craftspeople worldwide and had style and function is part of the value historically and worth owning or admiring. Especially by us old goats!  Ha!!



I think you’re projecting quite a lot. Lord knows I spend a metric ton of time on my phone. The issue is that bicycle collecting takes money and interest. Old farts talking down to kids aren’t going to help generate general interest in it, and overall entry level jobs are paying less and less due to inflation and college+ extracurriculars are sucking up more young peoples time now that a college degree is equivalent to a GED 20 years ago. You don’t see nearly as many kids modifying cars as you would have 30 years ago either, and that has a much wider appeal.


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## tacochris (Dec 29, 2021)

Let me offer one viewpoint respectfully (as I feel it does offer something if anything)
Ive been doing this 80% of my life at this point and even though, in my 40's now, Im still considered young for this hobby, Ive been the young guy for much longer.  I dont know that ive ever encountered an older person that was ever one inkling of rude to me or condescending.  If anything the older folks always seemed extra excited to meet a young person with the passion I have/had for these bikes and always went out of their way to impart wisdom on me.  Although I should add that I always approach, speak and carry myself with a high degree of respect, manners and willingness to understand that, while I know alot, I dont know it all and I allow myself to be a sponge.  Nothing has ever and will never sway me from this hobby short of death and even if everyone else leaves the hobby behind, deems it a futile pursuit and the bikes become worthless.....I will just have even more of them.  While I do understand that the decline of the hobby would mean advanced difficultly in finding parts (1980's all over again), it would offer me the dream chance at owning some bikes I can now only stare at thru the preverbal bullet-proof glass of high 5-figure prices and red tape. 
What my long-winded thesis above really means is: I have never been wealthy, alot of times in my life it has been feast or famine financially, I didnt really have an old-bike friend before this site, other than my dad short of one older fella local who quit when he got divorced,  Im in a city that has VERY few old bike collectors and Im thousands of miles away from the large swap meets everyone raves about.  That being said, I have 5 phantoms I love very much among other bikes, have had 100's of bikes throughout my life and I will have 100's more before I die....so if market pricing, seller attitude, distance or circumstance is what you think is holding you back, you may not really have a passion for it you think you do.

Passion and perseverance makes things happen regardless of circumstance.
Respectfully speaking, I hope my message comes across constructive and not combative.


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## bikebozo (Dec 29, 2021)

I live near 2 schools , students walk by my home , there is  group of girls 12 to 15 , that pass by , they are all on there cell phones texting each other, it is stupid and ridiculous. People text my flip phone and that is funny , also when they send me photos of bikes is a big joke.


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## dasberger (Dec 29, 2021)

I too could be considered a whipper snapper in the hobby at the young age of 45....  New(er) to the cabe and collecting prewar bikes but I've been riding bikes for ever and collecting all manner of vintage things since my 20's (Instruments, Mid century furniture, watches, etc).  All I can say is I wish I bought more and sold less over the years but you can't keep everything!

I find the debate of young vs. old and generalizations about generations tiring.  Of course we often mock what we don't understand but I would say laziness doesn't start or end with the youth.  There are plenty of lazy people of all ages... and just as many adults nose deep in their phones.

I must say I've  found almost every person I've bought, sold or reached out to on the CABE to be genuine, supportive and willing to share...  there are a few bitter souls out there but so what.  

I will put this out there to all the "old timers" who say they have never done or will never do social media....  The CABE IS SOCIAL MEDIA!!  There are a number of people communicating, sharing ideas, SOCIALIZING and there is TONS of MEDIA to be devoured....  Just an observation from a kid who is one of the last of the analog generation and doesn't have a FB, Insta or Twitter acct.

As for Bikes being a bad investment....

I'd like to see a few spot checks from this 1985 Bicycle Trader posted by @Giraffe Rider and tell me you wouldn't buy everything you could at those prices!!


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## ricobike (Dec 29, 2021)

dasberger said:


> The CABE IS SOCIAL MEDIA!!



Shhhhhh, don't let the secret out!


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## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2021)

When I started 1998 the prices seemed high.  Haven't changed.. just the quality is getting less.  high prices for  rusted out missing oober rare parts..bikes  that I used to pass on at swaps sell well. 
     again the ratio of older to younger people at swaps and shows are astounding..  they buy 1980s and 90s stuff and pass on high quality pieces.. no taste no money for stuff just going on wilderness adventures and are minimalists.. ..rare stuff sells always but that's it. Rest depreciates..
  I keep  my bluebird my living room as art..now....


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## bikewhorder (Dec 29, 2021)

As a total Gen x'er reading this thread reminds me of this Meme.


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## Nashman (Dec 29, 2021)

tacochris said:


> Let me offer one viewpoint respectfully (as I feel it does offer something if anything)
> Ive been doing this 80% of my life at this point and even though, in my 40's now, Im still considered young for this hobby, Ive been the young guy for much longer.  I dont know that ive ever encountered an older person that was ever one inkling of rude to me or condescending.  If anything the older folks always seemed extra excited to meet a young person with the passion I have/had for these bikes and always went out of their way to impart wisdom on me.  Although I should add that I always approach, speak and carry myself with a high degree of respect, manners and willingness to understand that, while I know alot, I dont know it all and I allow myself to be a sponge.  Nothing has ever and will never sway me from this hobby short of death and even if everyone else leaves the hobby behind, deems it a futile pursuit and the bikes become worthless.....I will just have even more of them.  While I do understand that the decline of the hobby would mean advanced difficultly in finding parts (1980's all over again), it would offer me the dream chance at owning some bikes I can now only stare at thru the preverbal bullet-proof glass of high 5-figure prices and red tape.
> What my long-winded thesis above really means is: I have never been wealthy, alot of times in my life it has been feast or famine financially, I didnt really have an old-bike friend before this site, other than my dad short of one older fella local who quit when he got divorced,  Im in a city that has VERY few old bike collectors and Im thousands of miles away from the large swap meets everyone raves about.  That being said, I have 5 phantoms I love very much among other bikes, have had 100's of bikes throughout my life and I will have 100's more before I die....so if market pricing, seller attitude, distance or circumstance is what you think is holding you back, you may not really have a passion for it you think you do.
> 
> ...



Well said. Thanks.


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## Nashman (Dec 29, 2021)

Lots of great comments and opinions. Thanks/although not my post...lol... We are a very cool group of people/some that have some insight that some can't see. I by no means want to dump negative vibes on anyone, young or old. I'm not a butt kisser, but open minded. ( there maybe an open crack in my skull/I know there is one in my azz).

 I guess if the shoe fits ( negative Nellies), but I've always experienced positive vibes on the Cabe. Sure, I've disagreed with a few ( agree to disagree) but lets rejoice in the New Year and how the Cabe ( me for one) has been a life preserver in a storm. Cheers and Happy New Year!


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## ozzie (Dec 30, 2021)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> We need to face the truth, this hobby will never go mainstream. It requires concentration,patience,hard work and sacrifice. Four traits that are seriously lacking in most people today, especially the younger crowd. The get your hands dirty attitude is nonexistent.



Exactly! Many young kids today would take their bikes to the local bike store even for a tire change. I did a 4 stage candy paint job on this weird, ugly late model Schwinn for my 10 year old and reassembled it with both of my girls to teach them a little.


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