# threads into nipple enough?



## spleeft (Jan 17, 2021)

I received / purchased this S7 front wheel and want to relace it with black spokes, I measured the old / original spokes at 269 mm just under 10 5/8" and it has 5/8" -16mm nipples. Here is what they look like on the wheel. The spoke threads are not quite into the nipple head and there are a few threads showing when it is tight. The wheel seemed solid and I was riding around on it with no issues.
 Is this sub optimal? Should I replace with spokes that are a few mm longer? Am I spitting hairs here? I will be riding this bike often. Thanks for any help


----------



## Barnegatbicycles (Jan 17, 2021)

What's the head on the nipple look like? Can you see the end of the spoke?


----------



## spleeft (Jan 17, 2021)

Barnegatbicycles said:


> What's the head on the nipple look like? Can you see the end of the spoke?



Well, as I put the spoke back in , I noticed the spoke barley reaches the rim.


----------



## RustySprockets (Jan 17, 2021)

Are there more threads on the new spokes than on the old ones?  If they're the same length, then they should reach the same point, right?


----------



## GTs58 (Jan 17, 2021)

Did you do a three or four cross? Four cross takes a longer spoke.


----------



## bloo (Jan 17, 2021)

Is the wheel still together and under tension? What does it look like on the tire side of the rim? Stick something down the hole of a few of them and see how far it goes if you cant just see the end. I think you should be able to see the end.

I don't know whether it is splitting hairs or not. I do know that brass work hardens when subjected to stress. if the nipple were to crack, and the spoke were not through the head of the nipple, the tension would release. If it were through the head, it probably wouldn't crack in the first place, and if it did, it would have to strip the threads or pull the head through the hole in the rim before the tension could release. That said, I have never seen a nipple break that way but I have seen a lot of broken spokes.

Your LBS or whoever you are buying spokes from can make them whatever length you want. I suggest getting some that fit, never mind whether the old ones were the ideal size.


----------



## Archie Sturmer (Jan 17, 2021)

I believe that the longer a spoke is, the better — unless it protrudes into the tube and liner; (I discount the extra weight factor).
If a spoke of the right length has too many extra threads exposed (showing), then either it has too many threads, or the spoke-nipple is too short.


----------



## spleeft (Jan 17, 2021)

Barnegatbicycles said:


> What's the head on the nipple look like? Can you see the end of the spoke?



I can put a wire in the back side of all the nipples about 1/8' to 3/16"


----------



## spleeft (Jan 17, 2021)

RustySprockets said:


> Are there more threads on the new spokes than on the old ones?  If they're the same length, then they should reach the same point, right?



I have not ordered / purchased new spokes/nips yet and yes I would think new /identical length spokes wpuld reach the same pint. I'm just not sure that is optimal.


----------



## spleeft (Jan 17, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> Did you do a three or four cross? Four cross takes a longer spoke.



Wheel is as I bought / un alteredit....prolly 50 years old, its built as a three cross ( not two over / one under likek S Brown describes but all over / 36 spokes / probably factory.


----------



## spleeft (Jan 17, 2021)

bloo said:


> Is the wheel still together and under tension? What does it look like on the tire side of the rim? Stick something down the hole of a few of them and see how far it goes if you cant just see the end. I think you should be able to see the end.
> 
> I don't know whether it is splitting hairs or not. I do know that brass work hardens when subjected to stress. if the nipple were to crack, and the spoke were not through the head of the nipple, the tension would release. If it were through the head, it probably wouldn't crack in the first place, and if it did, it would have to strip the threads or pull the head through the hole in the rim before the tension could release. That said, I have ever seen a nipple break that way but I have seen a lot of broken spokes.
> 
> Your LBS or whoever you are buying spokes from can make them whatever length you want. I suggest getting some that fit, never mind whether the old ones were the ideal size.



Yes wheel is under tension as it was when I purchased it used. I used for a few weeks, I dont think sopke threads are all the way through the rin and into the nipple. I can put a wire down the nip side about 1/8" to 1/16". 
  I'm new at wheel building, but this doesnt seem optimal, I like the idea of using slightly longer spokes.


----------



## bloo (Jan 17, 2021)

On my 1961 s7 front wheel, which I believe has original spokes, I replaced some. It is laced cross 3, as I suspect most middleweights were. The ones I took out were 10-11/16" I believe. Actually they were about 1/32" longer but they could have been stretched a little. This is in contrast to the 10-5/8 that almost everyone else says they find in s7 wheels regardless of hub. 10-11/16 is 271.46mm, and I would round that up to 272mm because they were ever so slightly longer. 1/8" is about 3mm. 3/16" is about 5mm. 273 might even be OK. The thing is, if they are even a tiny bit too long you will have to file them all. If you get the ideal length, you may still need to file 3 or 4 of them. Nothing is quite perfect. I didn't pay that much attention to how they fit as I was not building the wheel, just replacing bad spokes with new ones the same size.

I am told Schwinn didn't interlace the spokes (last one under). I usually do if I am building the wheel because some book I checked out of the library when I was 11 years old told me to LOL. Whether it helps or not is controversial, and I have no idea.

Based on what you have shown, I would probably order 272mm and hope for the best.


----------



## SirMike1983 (Jan 17, 2021)

Remove the tire, tube, and rim strip. Then take the wheel and look down into the nipple. You want the spoke to come up, at least to the fat part of the nipple. That is, the spoke should be long enough to pass through the shank of the nipple, pass the rim, and travel into the round, wide part of the nipple. The reason for this is that having the spoke in that part of the nipple adds strength. If the spoke is only down in the shank of the nipple, the fat part of the nipple being pulled by tension has nothing at its center to keep it from distorting. 

With all that being said, if you have only one spoke that is a little short, it isn't the end of the world. What you do not want is a whole wheel where the spokes only run a couple threads into the shank - you want the spoke as far in as it will go (ideally it would sit just below the surface of the round part of the nipple, but if it's close, that's fine). 

If you're only a couple threads into the nipple, then I'd opt for a longer spoke after you re-check the lacing pattern to ensure you've got the pattern right.


----------



## spleeft (Jan 17, 2021)

Thanks for all the replies all !
 I just dissembled the two wheels from a '63 Typhoon ( Black frame / white rims ). Both wheels had a similar pattern, the spokes were not as far into the nipples as you'all / internet / YT vids are advising.  Also , they were both 3 cross but all over ( not-over-over-under ). So my take away is to  build the wheels correct, not always how they were originally built.


----------



## guzziworksman (Jan 17, 2021)

For what it's worth - I've built approx 10 wheels sets, an AMF, a Western Flyer, and the remainder, JC Higgins/Sears. They all took a 270mm spoke...and the spokes mostly bottomed out in the nipples. I suspect the few protrusions I had to file were due to rims out of round.


----------



## bloo (Jan 17, 2021)

Schwinn s7 rims are about half an inch bigger around than the rims on a middleweight or ballooner of another brand.


----------



## GTs58 (Jan 17, 2021)

spleeft said:


> Thanks for all the replies all !
> I just dissembled the two wheels from a '63 Typhoon ( Black frame / white rims ). Both wheels had a similar pattern, the spokes were not as far into the nipples as you'all / internet / YT vids are advising.  Also , they were both 3 cross but all over ( not-over-over-under ). So my take away is to  build the wheels correct, not always how they were originally built.




Just curious. When counting the cross are you using the very first one or two spokes crossed that's on the hub flange? Schwinn did do a 4 cross on the early middleweights which took a spoke that's longer than the 269 mm that's most commonly used with the 3 cross.


----------



## Barnegatbicycles (Jan 17, 2021)

Probably need a slightly longer spoke. Cross pattern does matter. Typically it's 3 in the front and 4 for the rear will use the same length. If the cross counts were wrong it would be further off then a couple mm though.


----------



## GTs58 (Jan 17, 2021)

Barnegatbicycles said:


> Probably need a slightly longer spoke. Cross pattern does matter. Typically it's 3 in the front and 4 for the rear will use the same length. If the cross counts were wrong it would be further off then a couple mm though.




I'm still dumb as to why his threads are showing in his picture above if the spoke is 269 mm and it's on the front hub. I have three boxes of Union spokes and nipples from an old Schwinn shop and these 10 19/32 spokes were used on the 26" middleweights.


----------



## bloo (Jan 17, 2021)

When counting the crosses, don't miss the first cross. It is in there tight and might even be completely hidden by the rim flange.


----------



## bloo (Jan 17, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> I'm still dumb as to why his threads are showing in his picture above if the spoke is 269 mm and it's on the front hub. I have three boxes of Union spokes and nipples from an old Schwinn shop and these 10 19/32 spokes were used on the 26" middleweights.




I just looked at the bike that I took the 271.5mm spokes out of, and looked at a spare one of the replacement spokes I bought to repair that wheel. The "new" spokes are 269mm. Threads are showing on both the new spokes and the old ones. It is more than enough to hook your finger on, but maybe a bit less than on spleeft's wheel.

On the new 269mm replacements the spoke does not enter the head of the nipple until the threads disappear, so my spokes apparently don't reach far enough, new or old. I am tempted to take a tire off and look, but the tubes have a bunch of sealant sloshing around in them.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe (Jan 17, 2021)

.. what was the question?


----------



## GTs58 (Jan 17, 2021)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> .. what was the question?




How come my nipple has a hole in it.


----------



## Barnegatbicycles (Jan 17, 2021)

Are all of the spokes showing the same amount of threads? And do you have a picture of the whole wheel built up? It might help a little.


----------



## spleeft (Jan 18, 2021)

Here are more pics of the wheel as it was shipped to me ( sept I cleaned it up ) . All of the threads showing are not completely equal, but all nipples have ~3  threads showing. I can put a wire into the back end of the nips about 3-4mm. 
 My original question was , when I relace this wheel with new spokes ( changing color to black spokes for a klunker build ), would it be more optimal to use longer spokes?
Thanks for all of the replies, lots of learning here !

























.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe (Jan 18, 2021)

don't worry about it.


----------



## bloo (Jan 18, 2021)

272mm


----------



## SKPC (Jan 18, 2021)

Yes, nothing really memorable here.  Most likely the wheel was built up using spare parts (wheel looks not original) and that is what you may have here. But again, it will work just fine with the short spokes, and if you break a spoke or nipple just get longer ones.   All-steel, 36-spoke wheels with straight gauge spokes are really strong, and unless it is thrown off a building or smashed into a fixed object at speed, there is nothing really to worry about.  If you are going to the trouble of re-spoking this wheel, just make the spokes a tad longer and stainless..  Done.


----------



## RustySprockets (Jan 18, 2021)

I have to admit, all of my broken spokes have occurred at the J-bend--never once at the nipple.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe (Jan 18, 2021)

someone should build a wheelset with only 1/8" of threads engaged, then come back and report on how well it went on the first ride.


----------



## spleeft (Jan 31, 2021)

Update:
I finally laced this wheel with the new spokes. I went with 272mm ( original where 269mm ) . seems to be good with no threads showing, thanks for all the help / advice !


----------



## Rivnut (Feb 1, 2021)

Wow! 103mm difference. 272 to 169.


----------



## guzziworksman (Feb 4, 2021)

I'm in jealous awe of your wheel stand. Very pretty. I just relaced a '41 Elgin wheel - used the same length new spoke as the old (and I'm sure, original...a 268mm, 15 gauge). I got occasional protrusions into the rim - probably because I no longer have a perfectly round wheel. A Dremel solved that problem easily. BUT - I discovered that my old nipples were 19mm. What I had on hand, were 12mm, and left a whole lot of thread showing. A no-no. I could only get 16mm from my favorite supplier. Luckily, I could reuse my old nipples, which buffed out easily enough to a lovely brass. Now I need a lovely wheel stand like the the pictured. And the skil/patience to actually true a wheel, well.


----------



## bloo (Feb 4, 2021)

It's not really threads showing that is a problem. That will happen with shorter nipples no matter what. The guy at my LBS told me the thread length is fairly standard these days.

The idea is to get the spoke up into the head of the nipple so that the spokes are holding the wheel together, not just hollow nipples. That said I re-use 19mm ones too. It looks better on old bikes. Just be sure they are really for the same size spoke.


----------



## Archie Sturmer (Feb 4, 2021)

I believe that there may be spoke nipples of 1/2, 5/8, or 3/4” (or in metrix system, 10mm 100mm, and 1,000mm).


----------



## bloo (Feb 4, 2021)

You pretty much have to get the 19mm/3/4" size out of old wheels (or NOS).


----------

