# Maintenance Thread



## SKPC (Sep 9, 2019)

A_ maintenance-thread_  for all things Bicycle related seems to be missing here on The Cabe, so I decided to create one.   I see scattered posts, but think a good maintenance thread is in order.    Post your needed Maintenance work, discoveries, disappointments, joys, and in-general findings with pictures please.  Has it ever been done before? How long has it been?  Are parts damaged and/or available?  How did you do it?  Why did you do it?  How long did it take you?  Tips and tricks?  What have you?

I pulled apart the Elgin Tanker to clean and inspect the crankcase.  It had about 500 miles on it, and I was interested in how the bearings and cones were holding up to my pounding them into submission. As you can see, they looked polished with zero wear.  Schwinn crank, cones, and bearings from when they used good metal.  The sprocket is an -Emblem rigged to work with the 34 Schwinn crank.  I also cleaned and brass-brushed the skip tooth chain in mineral spirits. It has 800 miles from new on it and just slightly stretched over 12".  I also measured and re-aligned the rear stays as they were not centered on the BB shell and made sure the dropout axle slots were square and even on both sides.  I was able to also clean the front hub and rear hub since they were off the bike.   Good to go and very pleased with the condition of the BB setup.


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Oct 1, 2019)

I finally got around to rebuilding the Shimano Nexus 3 speed hub on my '39 Flying Ace. It was easier than most hubs I'm familiar with and works beautifully!












Also rebuilt the pedals, removed the silver house paint and cleaned them up since I never did them or the hub since building the bike. 







Unfortunately, these aren't the adjustable type so cleaned and crammed as much grease in the bearings as possible. A bit of a pain but not bad. 

The bike rides smooooooooth and silent. As they should.


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## SKPC (Nov 11, 2019)

Following up on Erics' 3-spd.   _*1978 Sturmey Archer S3C 3-spd coaster.*_  I have always had some trouble with Sturmey Archer coaster-3's and this particular one is problematic. I have gone down hard on a number of occasions with this evil piece of steel.  I was once standing up over the bars in 3rd fully powered up and it let go.  I had a concusion and multiple nasty injuries.  That was one time.  There have been others.
     This hub slips out of 3rd when casually pedaling  along.  Happens about every 25 pedal strokes.  I suspected spring tension on the pawls, the ratchet notches being worn or debris-laden,  or the main drive clutch "creeping" off of the planetary drive pins when in 3rd.(return spring tension?)  So here we go again.           I hate starting this process but delved into it today..ugh..



After removing the wheel, I pulled all the fixing nuts and hardware off both sides of the axle and then removed the brake assembly unscrewing the main notched play adjustment nut.  It all should slide right out with little help.



Then the drive side main axle cone is removed and the sprocket carrier can slide off the axle.



Remove the rest of the drive guts by unscrewing the threaded ball carrier with a punch and hammer. Lefty loose.  I have had this stupid hub apart alot so this went pretty easy.  Do not tighten this too much or you will never get it back off....proper tool would be best to unscrew it...


\
Now you can pull out the rest of the internals out. Clean everything with solvent and a soft brush and set it aside. Everything...



Now is always a good time to clean the hub shell with an old toothbrush and mineral spirits.  I like to clean the spoke/hub flange areas and the rest of the empty shell and set that aside for the rebuild.  Really hard to do so otherwise sitting in the frame...



This hub is beginning to see some pitting on the hubs' drive side race...



After cleaning and inspecting everything, I find nothing suspect...see the sprung pawls and the 4 planetary drive pins below.  Looks ok, right?







After cleaning and inspecting it all, time to re-assemble!  Make sure when cleaning with a brush, to not dislodge & lose the weak and poorly-designed pawl springs which can and do easily break. Notice I bent them a bit to put more tension on the pawls, which I had suspected could be allowing the pawls to slip out of the hub shell notches.  I don't think this is the problem with the slipping 3rd gear//



     You then basically re-assemble the guts in the reverse order drive-side1st.  Assemble the axle with the planetary carrier and all the drive side guts together and thread the whole assembly into the hub shell.   The outside cone that you see now screwed onto the axle before screwing it into the shell temporarily helps hold the drive clutch in place as it always wants to slip off the axle and fall on the floor during the next steps.  It is always better to assemble the entire package completely including the sprocket carrier with the drive side axle cone buried to the thread stops, and then screw it all assembled and seated together into the shell..this always seems to work the best as all the parts seem to assemble and seat better outside of the shell....If you try to put the sprocket carrier in after the assembly is screwed into the hub shell, it can be a nightmare to do it but it still can be done.  Just more potential for all the parts to not seat properly and make your life miserable...  



If you lose the indicator chains' sliding gear adjuster shown below, you can not and will not recover.!!!  This dimunitive and easy-to-lose piece that slides in the axle that the indicator chain screws into allows you to shift, and without it good luck...it becomes a fixed gear hub....




Here is a look at the planetary axle/drive pin ends with the 4-arm drive clutch in the 3rd gear position resting against them. This is before I assembled it all and screwed it into the shell.  I believe this is where the weakest point in the s3c hub is...the square armed drive clutch slowly creeps off of the ends of the pins when loaded, even with spring tension pushing the clutch down in place as you see it...






At this point, the trickery begins.  If you 1st seat the driver as shown and then screw the cone on, the spring cap under the cone that you can see binds on the bearings and delicate pawls inside not allowing anything to seat or slide properly internally.  No Bueno.  Not all sturmeys are like this.  Seat the main axle cone into the driver 1st, then carefully screw them  onto the axle while holding them together seated, keeping the return spring with its' cap UNDER the bearings and sprocket carrier while doing so...very tricky.   This drive side cone MUST be tightened to the end of it's threads. After you think you have done this, spin the wheel back and forth and continue to attempt to screw the cone in further.  Very difficult to seat the internals during this process.  I like to screw in the indicator chain and pull it in and out while spinning the wheel, occasionally checking if the cone screws further in...it always seems to have further to go. If this drive side cone is not buried as tight as it will go until it stops on the axle threads you are doomed.



So once the drive side cone is to the end of the axle threads screwed all the way in and stopped, go to the brake side of the hub.  See below the ends of the planetary drive pins sticking out with flats on them...if the flats are not all cleaning pointing to the outside of the shell, you cannot assemble it correctly...make sure of this.



The rest of the brake side internals are relatively simple to install. Make sure everything seats well as you go along..Note below the location of the spring. If not in this position, the rest will not go together properly..



     Install the anti-rotation washer then the notched bearing adjustment nut.  This nut is the ONLY nut to use to adjust the hubs bearing play. When assembled and tightened in the drops, there should be zero play at the rim and a small amount at the sprocket....it should spin freely and not bind anywhere, or in any way and should not ghost-drive the cranks when free-spinning the wheel. If anything binds, you are screwed and have to start over...



When you are sure the drive-side cone is fully screwed in to the furthest extent possible, back it out 1.25 turns and put the lock tabs in place on its' flats. Then tighten the non-drive side threaded & notched adjustment nut until the whole mess has no play...spin the wheel in your hands working everything back and forth, the sprocket carrier and the brake action, watching for any play or looseness.  If so, not good. Assuming there is no play and things look like they are working, insert the indictor chain all the way in (threaded-end shifter chain inside the axle) then back it out one turn... I also like to run these extra lock tabs pointing outboard on my 3-spd hubs as they really help keep the axle from shifting in the frames' dropouts under power.  Anti-rotation axle security as well.



Some highlight pics below.....







Taking the play out at the rim using the notched adjustment nut on the brake side(below)while mounted in the frame, drive side nut tight. Tighten the left side axle nut down again after adjusting and check for any play at the rim...there should be *none.*.. The wheel should also spin freely with no binding or noise, and the crank should not move while the wheel spins.  This is what you are looking for, smooth spin and nothing binding.  Attach the shift cable, adjust correctly and go ride it...



So after all of this long-winded, lengthly and detailed rebuild, do you think I solved the slipping out of 3rd gear problem?
*NO!.*..it still slips out of 3rd while lightly pedaling at around 20 turns.   I hate sturmey hubs and may never lace one up again....


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## fattyre (Nov 12, 2019)

@SKPC

Vintage is cool and all, but at a certain point...

I'll never hammer on one of those hubs again either.  From several close calls to a stem to the knee needing 4 stitches and a nasty scar to prove it.


"or the main drive clutch "creeping" off of the planetary drive pins when in 3rd."

"the square armed drive clutch slowly creeps off of the ends of the pins when loaded, even with spring tension pushing the clutch down in place as you see it..."

This!-   I've found they especially slip when you shock the driveline.  Like right before you throw down at the bottom of a climb...

I don't think it has anything todo with the pawls.  I'd be miraculous if both simultaneously let go over and over again.  I've always thought (but never enough todo anything about it) if you replaced the return spring with a higher tension one that that might help.  Added a few pics of a new & a super worn AW clutch.  You might wanna carefully inspect yours.  I’d bet is shows some wear.  






[


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## SKPC (Nov 12, 2019)

Yea, shoulda seen my face and knee and arm after my concussion.  I have (as you mention) stretched the driver clutch return spring to achieve the higher spring tension that would seem to keep the driver seated on the pins more securely, and also added a longer one from another hub that had more tension....but this did not work either.._*.hate em*_.


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## vincev (Nov 12, 2019)

TIP.... I rebuilt a 2 speed kickback hub.I got it to work perfectly on the test.I decided to grease it up and put it on bike.After all the work I put it on the bike and it would not shift. Took it all apart and wiped all the partss down and it worked fine.I regreased it and the same thing.Would not shift ! Took apart again and cleaned each piece BUT this time no grease Just light oil Worked perfectly and is still on the bike.OIL NOT GREASE ! lol


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## SKPC (Nov 12, 2019)

100% accurate @vincev …..Grease ONLY on the bearing races/cages/brake surfaces inside the hub.  Light oil on everything else inside.


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## vincev (Nov 12, 2019)

SKPC said:


> 100% accurate @vincev …..Grease ONLY on the bearing races/cages/brake surfaces inside the hub.  Light oil on everything else.



.Yup,us old guys still live and learn I guess.lol


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## bikemonkey (Nov 12, 2019)

Jobst Brandt had this to say about the AW design flaws...I am thinking it may also apply to the S3C design...

And this is an archive of the above thread which is more complete and delves into elasticity and deformation of the axle (temporary or permanent) which causes the slip in high gear.


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## SKPC (Nov 12, 2019)

Not much if any wear on my clutch driver...here it is below after cleaning it.  I remember replacing it already once. The link @bikemonkey provides above I did read once or twice on a number of occations and this is why I suspected the clutch and pinion/drive pins.  What is strange is I have ridden two other S3C hubs and they do not seem to slip out of 3rd under load.  With this bike, I simply pause my pedaling forces for a fraction of a second around 20-25 revolutions of the cranks, and the driver drops back into place, giving me another 25 good pedal strokes with no slippage.   This pausing for a split second has become second nature with this bike and I rarely if ever stand up in 3rd any longer, that's for sure!   I take that chance only right after pausing to let the driver re-seat.


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## bikemonkey (Nov 13, 2019)

If you read deeper into Brandt's second link I posted above, you can see where he states the slippage builds up from the canting of the pinion pins and axle deformation. That is probably why yours slips intermittently as the slippage continually increases under torque for x number of revolutions.

It is an inherently poor design that SA refused to address whilst blaming all the injured riders for improper cable adjustment.

_...Two features that cause disengagement occur only under continuous hard
torque.  The four pinion pins, that fit loosely in the planet cage,
cant slightly under pressure from the clutch (driver cross), to an_
_off-perpendicular angle so that the bearing surface with the clutch_
_slopes toward disengagement.  

Meanwhile, chain loads on the hub cause_
_the axle to bend slightly so that the active parts (planet cage and
clutch) displaced along the axle, rotate about separate skewed axes to_
_each other.  During rotation, the four bearing faces of the clutch
each experience reciprocating motion of the planet pins that, through
their slant, generate disengaging creep.  The engagement spring is no
match for these forces.

In addition to the disengagement forces, caused by pin skew and axle
flex, the clutch faces develop indentations from the slanted pins that
enhance disengagement.  This is clearly visible on any used clutch.

This problem could have been resolved by putting a slight inward taper
to the ends of the planet pins and a similar matching slant on the
bearing faces of the clutch, giving their engagement a preferential
retaining force instead of the opposite.  Most motorcycle gear boxes
use such features, especially in older non-synchronized sliding gear_
boxes... _the classic clunk of BMW boxes for instance._


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## SKPC (Nov 13, 2019)

Correct. Yes I did read all of it...the slight bevel, or canting on the driver arms matching a bevel on the end of the pinion pins would solve the problem as mentioned by the tranny experts, but the metal used here is heat hardened and would need special and precise machining of the pins and driver to match perfectly....a Dremel was suggested but not accurate enough.  As mentioned, just a poor design not for hammering on...can you say Sachs Dreigang?


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## bikemonkey (Nov 17, 2019)

This is what I find personally curious about this 3rd gear slippage. As a longtime bike guy, and having worked at 4 different Raleigh dealerships (2 small and 2 big), I never recall these issues...either with my Tourist or LTD, or any customer's bicycles. To my knowledge, no one was a member of the "Over Bars Club" from gear slippage (hereafter referred to as the OBC). Of course, there were any number of other SA gear issues from improper cable adjustment to ruined hubs from improper maintenance and salt.

All of these shops were in flatland so folks weren't doing much hill climbing to speak of, so topography could be a contributing factor. But people still occasionally honked on them in 3rd gear, especially starting out. Maybe its my memory, nah...it's perfect.


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Nov 17, 2019)

@SKPC just has too much power. Obviously more than us mortals....


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Nov 25, 2019)

Out with the old, in with the new!




New radiator for my '06 Chrysler 300c work car this weekend.   Also some new winter wiper blades and washer nozzles. Sorry. No pics.


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## SKPC (Aug 23, 2020)

Mr. Monkeyarms said:


> @SKPC just has too much power. Obviously more than us mortals....



   I am mortal for sure, but do break stuff all the time. Here is a good example of it
     For the last few rides on my new Ibis, there has been a mysterious crankset squeak that appeared.  It was one I could not locate, so I kept riding for 5 more rides.   Today, after another ride it was still noisy,  so I pulled the crank and found this! 



    This is an outboard-bearing, 30mm spindle BSA30 threaded drive side bottom bracket cup. Metal failed simply because of a thin design after three weeks of riding.  The Race Face cup below clearly sports a thicker/butted design at this area as you can see below.


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## GTs58 (Aug 23, 2020)

Kind a like spinning a main bearing in a car huh?


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## SKPC (Nov 1, 2020)

*Sturmey Archer TCW*  weather proof hub. 2nd gear slipping.   I have been floundering with the last two TCW hubs that I've laced over the years, including the recent one I just used for my Shelby project. But the TCW is really a nice hub so I used a low-mile one on the wheelset matched to a drum brake front.  Straight away it slipped easily out of 2nd gear.  Went through all the schematics and procedures, inspected many times each part, and no fixo.  Then went in desperation to the page on "possible problems/solutions" that in the end steered me to the answer. There were only two possible causes.  1.)Worn Gear Ring or 2.) Worn Clutch.  Looked fine, but.......the failure of the schematic drawings is that they don't show one key area on the Gear Ring that carries the 2nd gear load! I had another loose TCWIII here so took it apart to look at it's gear ring and there you go. Duh!   I thought the 45degree taper was ramped that way to allow the clutch to slide up. No, it was the drive surface, no wonder. The answer!  I had taken these hubs apart dozen's of times looking for the problem and completely missed it until today. Hopefully someone can learn from this.  Slapped it in, went for ride, and problem solved.
_See below good and bad Gear Rings_.



All three of the other gear rings I had looked just like this one so I thought it was normal...



Both Clutches looked ok.


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## SKPC (Feb 28, 2021)

I wanted to remove a spin-on, indexed Dura Ace 7-spd freewheel from a Bullseye rear hub of the era... (90's)   I found the Park splined insert tool and with a big Crescent wrench gave it a heave or two with no results.  More leverage needed so I put the tool flats in my cheap vise and heaved hard on it four or five times...no result.  One more big heave and "BAM!"     I wanted to get a bigger vise anyway.
     These old thread-on clusters can be a real pita.  Particularly if ridden hard then put away for 25yrs. Alu-steel bonds I think over time.  I surely put grease on the threads when I installed it if I can remember that far back but so far not coming off. I will follow up with a bigger vise and perhaps some heat on the freewheel.







And since we love pictures here is me riding with it on my customized Trek 8700 back in the day....


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## GTs58 (Feb 28, 2021)

I've had a few stubborn freewheels and it's definitely a pain. The old Atom two shot freewheels require a BA easy out tool, and then your chances of getting it off are increased by a few percent. Not sure if you'll be able to salvage that vice though.


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## SirMike1983 (Mar 1, 2021)

I have found slippage to be more an issue with the old S3 Coaster and the TCW models than with the plain AW. Having had all of them apart, it just strikes me that the need to add the coaster resulted in design compromises in the hub that were not present on the AW.

It's very hard to disprove Brandt's knock on the AW because it's hard to prove a negative. We all end up saying, "it sounds possible to me, but I'd be hard-pressed to name someone who went over the bars because of provable slippage of a properly maintained hub." I don't know anyone (knock wood) who has had it happen. The cases of slippage I've encountered were almost always due to improperly adjusted hubs/cables or badly worn hub parts. I'll admit also though that I'm not a heavy thrasher.

The biggest issue I encountered with the TCW slipping comes from damaged or worn center-spacers. In the TCW III, for example, there's a snap-ring style spacer that keeps the two halves of the innards in place. They get worn and walk out of the axle slot, resulting in slippage of the gears.


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## SKPC (Mar 1, 2021)

Thanks for chiming in on the Sturmey 3-speeds @SirMike1983.  It takes some time maintaining them and riding all of them to find what may be their specific faults, if any that renders them un-ridable.   For sure, 99% of the time it is an adjustment issue, which occurs when the rear axle nuts are loosened or come loose, cable housing gets dirty and sticky, or if it's simply not adjusted right to begin with.  If adjusted and maintained correctly, they are a joy to ride and very dependable.  I can say that I have gone over the bars, but it was an adjustment issue in that case.  It hurt.
         After wondering what the Poo-poo negative big deal was with the TCW and TCW3 hubs,  I had to try them.  The TCW3 is a modified TCW with a S3C brake side "repair" that separates the braking from driving actions, but sometimes the axle snap ring crawls out of the groove as you mention if jammed on really hard or worn.  I have had this happen a few times on my S3C's.   The TCW is at the top of my list simply because of it's simplicity and general good looks with thick chrome,  fat body and 28 or 36 hole versions.  I have not had an issue with adjustment or no brakes, even when adjusted a little bit off.  It had to be really far out of adjustment to be an issue. Also,  running smaller front rings with them gives it greater braking power since the brakes are driven through the drive system.
         The S3C that replaced the TCW3 is built more fragile imo.  I have three that I have on bikes.  Two DO NOT skip out of 3rd and are darned good hubs, but I have one that always slips out of 3rd. after about 15-20 pedal strokes. This is apparently a confirmed wear problem between the drive clutch arms(4) and the pinion/drive pins(4).  Funny thing is, I can't see the wear it is so slight.  it may be that these two parts need to stay together to meld well and not let loose.   Still prefer the Sachs H3111 and 515 over the sturmeys....
      Does anyone have any experience with the early Tri-Coasters and parts availability?   I know they are tough to come by, as they came into being in the late teens...rarely see these..


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## SKPC (Mar 6, 2021)

One of the most important maintenance tasks you can do is cleaning, inspecting and lubing your chain.  A clean chain is a quiet chain and is so important for so many reasons.  One big one is that it is easier to find creeping roller pins that could ruin your day if not set correctly.  I found one today.


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## SKPC (Mar 7, 2021)

Shimano Dura Ace freewheel removal success.  Got a new bigger vice, applied some judicious heat consistently around, and it came loose!
These were top of the line freewheels back in the day....now moving it on to it's new owner..pjm



Carefully heating the steel, trying to stay away from the alu Bullseye bonded hub shell.  




Black stuff is remnants of a foam ring I made to keep out debris from the ratchet mech.



My memory served me correctly.  Special silver anti-sieze was on the Bullseyehub.  If not, it may have never come off...Now off to a new owner.


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## SKPC (Apr 26, 2021)

Removed the Emblem chainring and replaced with an Excelsior style that fits the 34 AS cranks without mods. as shown.  Emblem ran larger diameter drive side threads.(see shims)  Running A&S drivetrain parts here for toughness. Even with big mileage, little wear if any on the running surfaces.


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