# 1915 Sears Chief - Novice Needs Advice



## Hopkid

I recently found a very rusty Chief in a local antique store. Rust covers most of the metal but it appears to be in pretty good shape structurally. The wood rims appear sound and even have what may be the original tires, now deteriorated and shrunk down so they are flat against the rim. It has what looks like the original leather seat and the leather mud flap exists on the back of the front fender. I don't recall that the shifter was there...I didn't know there was supposed to be one until I got home and did some research. To return it to good working order would still be a decent project. I'm going back there later today to check it out again.

They are asking $1900 for it. I need your all's expert advice here. Is this a reasonable price considering the condition it is in? If I pass on this, how likely is it that I will come across another? In other words, how rare is it to find these? I am an avid cyclist and I also have a penchant for all things vintage (clothing, music, etc.) so this seems like a logical mashup. I've never restored an antique bike but I'm game for the challenge.

Thanks!

Andy


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## Iverider

$1,900 for something you're going to restore sounds like a lot. Pictures would help.


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## Hopkid

Krautwaggen said:


> $1,900 for something you're going to restore sounds like a lot. Pictures would help.




That's kinda what I thought but then I have no idea what something like this would normally go for. I'll get some pics when I go back for a visit. Planning to go today unless something comes up here at work.


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## Balloontyre

Hello,
It is difficult to advise without seeing the bike in question. Can you post some pics possibly? 
 There are many factors that effect value, condition being one, but having all the  correct parts is also huge. These bikes are not rare, but tend to be popular and that adds to what some folks will pay for one. I have seen prices on complete bikes from $1000 on up, accessories add to the whole as well. 
If I were buying @ 1900.00 the bike would be complete minus tires, restorable mechanics to get it riding, and the paint would be original with enough depth to salvage.


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## scrubbinrims

I wouldn't touch that bike for 19 bills if it truly needs a restoration, but accessories make a big difference and things like nice intact tires, saddle, etc...
Without seing it, there is really no sensible way to advise you further...what you might see as "rusty" being a newcomer, a seasoned collector might covet knowing the clean up potential.
Chris


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## Hopkid

scrubbinrims said:


> I wouldn't touch that bike for 19 bills if it truly needs a restoration, but accessories make a big difference and things like nice intact tires, saddle, etc...
> Without seing it, there is really no sensible way to advise you further...what you might see as "rusty" being a newcomer, a seasoned collector might covet knowing the clean up potential.
> Chris




Thanks, Chris. I'll work to get some pics up for you all to see. I love your avatar BTW.

Andy


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## bricycle

You could get with or without the 3 spd. ND "A" was the base hub.


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## gtdohn

If you happen to pass on the Chief, would you please give out the location so others would have a shot at it? Personally, I have been looking for one for a long time.

Thanks


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## Hopkid

gtdohn said:


> If you happen to pass on the Chief, would you please give out the location so others would have a shot at it? Personally, I have been looking for one for a long time.




Yes, will do!  Here are some pics. I will post additional pics in separate post as cabe seems to limit the amount of bytes one can attach. On this second visit, it doesn't look as rusty as I had remembered it. It also appears to be a single speed based on the rear hub.


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## Hopkid




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## Iverider

If that were my bike, I wouldn't do much to it. Maybe build a rider wheelset and keep the one on it for display.


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## Hopkid




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## bricycle

Never seen that chainwheel on a Chief, and while the saddle is pretty-ok, I don't believe it's a real Chief saddle.


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## bricycle

also doesn't have the locking dropstand....


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## dave the wave

get them down to $1500.other than that,if you can't, buy it anyway and enjoy it.


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## Hopkid

dave the wave said:


> get them down to $1500.other than that,if you can't, buy it anyway and enjoy it.




Hilarious! So $1500 would be a reasonable amount? I think it needs good scrubbing and then of course I'd have to check to see if the wheels are sound and can be rebuilt.


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## Gary Mc

Hopkid said:


> Hilarious! So $1500 would be a reasonable amount? I think it needs good scrubbing and then of course I'd have to check to see if the wheels are sound and can be rebuilt.




$1500 would be a good deal but like Bri said chainring, pedals, & drop stand are wrong & maybe seat.  These don't come up often so I'd jump on it particularly with decent original paint even if I had to go all in at $1900 if you have the cash.


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## bricycle

According to Chief literature, the all wood wheels were "clincher" style.


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## Balloontyre

*dropstand*

What is wrong or not correct, looks like the right one to me.


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## dave the wave

it is the wrong drop stand.but,it is the rare harley davidson diamond cut out drop stand.which is worth big $$$.


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## vincev

If you get the bike dont "restore" it for a first bike.Find some junkers and play with them.Keep  this gem put away until you have been in the hobby and you might change your mind about restoring.To do it properly would take a good piece of money and if its not done right the bike value suffers.just my 2 cents worth.


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## Iverider

Yes. What Vince said! Leave the wheels alone if they're straight.


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## Gary Mc

dave the wave said:


> it is the wrong drop stand.but,it is the rare harley davidson diamond cut out drop stand.which is worth big $$$.




WOW, I didn't catch that.  That would bring enough to offset finding the other correct parts.....


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## Gary Mc

Balloontyre said:


> What is wrong or not correct, looks like the right one to me.




Here's this Chief with Harley diamond cut out drop stand:






Here's a Harley with correct drop stand, you can see they are the same diamond cutout pattern:





Here's the correct Sears Chief's unique locking drop stand for 1915 and note where it can be locked up in the down position, big difference & very unique design:





BUT I STAND CORRECTED, this bike did come with both styles between 1915 to 1917.  1915 for sure had locking drop stand in first 1915 ad, I don't have a date on second ad with the diamond cut-out drop stand.


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## Gary Mc

vincev said:


> If you get the bike dont "restore" it for a first bike.Find some junkers and play with them.Keep  this gem put away until you have been in the hobby and you might change your mind about restoring.To do it properly would take a good piece of money and if its not done right the bike value suffers.just my 2 cents worth.




Here's another "What Vince said"!!!!!!  This bike is too good in my eyes to be restored, plenty of original paint left that just needs some TLC, same with all the nickel.


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## oddball

Looks like a square open drop stand which is correct, should have sturmey archer tri-coaster hub to mention a couple other things.That being said looks solid for $1000-1200


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## Hopkid

My idea of restoration was to just clean it up a bit, i.e., remove as much of the rust as possible, make sure the drive train is clean and in good working order, true the wheels so they're sound, recondition the seat, put some tires on it, and ride it! At this point I'm not as concerned about making it completely original again although I does have its appeal.

My biggest obstacle to purchasing this is to convince my wife that it's a good idea. Personally, I'm not sure I'm convinced I want to spend that kind of money (although I've spent much more on my modern road bikes) and that it deserves to go to someone like you all who have had a passion for vintage bikes much longer than I have.

Quite the dilemma I have here.


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## dave the wave

Gary Mc said:


> Here's this Chief with Harley diamond cut out drop stand:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a Harley with correct drop stand, you can see they are the same diamond cutout pattern:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the correct Sears Chief's unique locking drop stand for 1915 and note where it can be locked up in the down position, big difference & very unique design:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BUT I STAND CORRECTED, this bike did come with both styles between 1915 to 1917.  1915 for sure had locking drop stand in first 1915 ad, I don't have a date on second ad with the diamond cut-out drop stand.




good call gary,i didn't know that it had 2 drop stand variations.


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## Iverider

Don't tell her!


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## bricycle

Yea, re: drop stands, I learned something new today!


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## dave the wave

the diamond cut out is 1917.


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## Hopkid

Can someone explain the difference between the two stands? I don't really see the difference in the photos and ads that were posted.


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## Hopkid

Krautwaggen said:


> Don't tell her!




Haha! Well one doesn't stay married for 21+ years by not keeping the wife in the loop on major purchases.


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## dave the wave

the 1st. one is nonlocking the 2nd. one is able to lock with a paddle lock.


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## Iverider

At $39.95, I'll take two!


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## pelletman

Hopkid said:


> Haha! Well one doesn't stay married for 21+ years by not keeping the wife in the loop on major purchases.




Amen!  I found this old bike at the dump...


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## Iverider

Lucky too, because I got jumped shortly before hand and they got away with $1,900 in the form of a check!


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## Hopkid

dave the wave said:


> the 1st. one is nonlocking the 2nd. one is able to lock with a paddle lock.




I guess my real question is why is one referred to as "diamond cut"? I don't see in the ads how that differentiates one from the other. At least I don't see a diamond shape anywhere.


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## chitown

dave the wave said:


> one is able to lock with a paddle lock.




Here is a patent for a locking stand filed in 1912.


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## Gary Mc

Hopkid said:


> I guess my real question is why is one referred to as "diamond cut"? I don't see in the ads how that differentiates one from the other. At least I don't see a diamond shape anywhere.




Look carefully at the bike you are looking at and notice the drop stand attaches at the axle & going forward drops to below the frame, just below this area is a diamond cutout pattern.  On the 1915 version with the locking feature, notice it attaches to the axle and then runs along the frame going forward on the bike and there is no drop down area below the frame but a tab at the top where a padlock can be used to lock the drop stand in the down position.  Hope this helps explain it.


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## Gary Mc

*Head Badge Variations*

Just another note for those who don't know, Sears Chief had two variations of their head badge.  I have not confirmed but have been told the first variation was used in 1915-1916, the other variation running 1917 to 1919.  This Chief has the later version.  Here are two slides I put together to show the differences in Sears Chief head badges:

*1915 to 1916*






*1917 to 1919*


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## bricycle

Wow, great info!!!! Thanks for sharing, everyone!


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## dave the wave

*july/aug. 2009 Classic Bicycle News*

Classic Bicycle News July/Aug. 2009 published by Scott McCaskey and contributing writer Patric Cafaro did a story on the chief bicycle and shows that there are 3 variations of the chief badges.i am sure there are back issues for sale of the story if you contact scott.intresting stuff.


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## Hopkid

Thanks for the great info everyone, especially Gary for that treatise on Chief kickstands and head badges!

The front wheel isn't straight as it rubs against the fork when turned. Do these wood wheels stand the test of time, i.e., are they generally rideable baring significant deterioration? Or do folks usually use a metal wheelset when riding something like this?


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## decath6431

*Great Info*

The article referenced from CBN about the chief is really good, as is the discussion on this thread.  What I'm really curious about is if Gary is available for hire to put together slide shows/ PowerPoint presentations. That thing is killer


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## Gary Mc

Hopkid said:


> Thanks for the great info everyone, especially Gary for that treatise on Chief kickstands and head badges!
> 
> The front wheel isn't straight as it rubs against the fork when turned. Do these wood wheels stand the test of time, i.e., are they generally rideable baring significant deterioration? Or do folks usually use a metal wheelset when riding something like this?




Hopkid, If it were me and I bought this bike I would buy new 700c wood rims & retain the originals for show only but that is a personal preference I have and will be going with on my three current restorations.  This allows you to go with new tires & tubes rather than single tube tires which are pricey.  I also consider it a safety factor.  There are several makers of 700c wood rims, Ghisallo (my preference) from Wheel Fanatyk (called Balloon Clinchers), Sacro Bosco are another good choice, Noah Stutzman custom built wood rims (no website), & CB Italia.  There are also some Amish custom rim makers out there.  Another metal alternative I have seen people use on these bikes are Velocity P35's.

http://www.wheelfanatyk.bigcartel.com/category/ghisallo-wood-rims

http://www.sacroboscorims.com/collections/bicycle-works/Rim+Wheel

http://www.cbita.it/?lang=en


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## dave the wave

*3 chiefs*

i have 3 chiefs with all 3 variation.


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## Gary Mc

decath6431 said:


> The article referenced from CBN about the chief is really good, as is the discussion on this thread.  What I'm really curious about is if Gary is available for hire to put together slide shows/ PowerPoint presentations. That thing is killer




Thank You!!!!!!  It's already part of how I make a living for a major corp. among other skills so it's easy & quick for me to do......


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## Gary Mc

dave the wave said:


> Classic Bicycle News July/Aug. 2009 published by Scott McCaskey and contributing writer Patric Cafaro did a story on the chief bicycle and shows that there are 3 variations of the chief badges.i am sure there are back issues for sale of the story if you contact scott.intresting stuff.




Thanks Dave, now I need to track down that CBN!!!!!!! I did not know about the third variation.


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## decath6431

*Speaking of CBN*

Has anyone else got the September/October issue?  I subscribed for all the issues to this point and got through July/ August but a September/ October issue hasn't arrived (all the prior came at one time in the same package).  Was curious when the new issues usually come out and if I'm somehow not getting new ones who I'd contact.  Thanks, sorry for the mini hi-jack of the thread.


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## Balloontyre

*Did you*

Buy the bike?


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## Hopkid

Gary Mc said:


> Hopkid, If it were me and I bought this bike I would buy new 700c wood rims & retain the originals for show only but that is a personal preference I have and will be going with on my three current restorations.  This allows you to go with new tires & tubes rather than single tube tires which are pricey.  I also consider it a safety factor.  There are several makers of 700c wood rims, Ghisallo (my preference) from Wheel Fanatyk (called Balloon Clinchers), Sacro Bosco are another good choice, Noah Stutzman custom built wood rims (no website), & CB Italia.  There are also some Amish custom rim makers out there.  Another metal alternative I have seen people use on these bikes are Velocity P35's.
> 
> http://www.wheelfanatyk.bigcartel.com/category/ghisallo-wood-rims
> 
> http://www.sacroboscorims.com/collections/bicycle-works/Rim+Wheel
> 
> http://www.cbita.it/?lang=en




Awesome! Thanks again, Gary.

Still thinking it over folks. I'll let you know what happens one way or the other. At the very least I've come across another great group of helpful and friendly folks on the Internet.


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## hoofhearted

THESE FOTOS ARE POSTED IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER ... FOR SERIOUS INFORMATION REGARDING 
THE DAVIS CHIEF OR THE DAVIS HARLEY-DAVIDSON BICYCLES ... this writer has provided several 
articles on both of these marques ... published in Classic Bicycle News 2012.  Extra copies may or 
may not be available.  Maybe the publisher of Classic Bicycle News ... Scott McCaskey .. will let us 
know what is available for sale.  

AND ... AS i HAVE ALWAYS STATED ... i have received no compensation for any of my literary and/or 
fotographic contributions ... in doing so ... i am at liberty to write what needs to be recorded WITHOUT 
BEING INFLUENCED to put a spin on any information i may document.  Just keepin' it real !!!

............  patric cafaro


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## hoofhearted

SOME MORE .............

..........  patric cafaro


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## pelletman

hoofhearted said:


> THESE FOTOS ARE POSTED IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER ... FOR SERIOUS INFORMATION REGARDING
> THE DAVIS CHIEF OR THE DAVIS HARLEY-DAVIDSON BICYCLES ... this writer has provided several
> articles on both of these marques ... published in Classic Bicycle News 2012.  Extra copies may or
> may not be available.  Maybe the publisher of Classic Bicycle News ... Scott McCaskey .. will let us
> know what is available for sale.
> 
> AND ... AS i HAVE ALWAYS STATED ... i have received no compensation for any of my literary and/or
> fotographic contributions ... in doing so ... i am at liberty to write what needs to be recorded WITHOUT
> BEING INFLUENCED to put a spin on any information i may document.  Just keepin' it real !!!
> 
> ............  patric cafaro




Patric, 

Are you saying you can be bought?!


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## hoofhearted

GOOD MORNING, pelletman !!!  

I am saying i will not be bought ... but, hopefully, back-issues of CBN may be !!

..........  patric


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## pelletman

Good Morning!  Thanks for clearing that up!


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## hoofhearted

A few more chunks of eye candy ..........











...........  patric cafaro


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## Hopkid

After careful deliberation, I've decided not to purchase the Chief. I'm putting my antique bicycle dreams on hold for now. So, good news for those of you out there who are interested in this find. The Chief is at Everything Vintage in Toano, VA. Their phone number is 757-566-1818 and their open today but then closed until Thursday, although I was there last Tuesday. If you talk to Jennifer, tell her Andy sent you.

Good luck and thanks again for all the great responses to my thread!

Andy


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## dfa242

Hopkid said:


> After careful deliberation, I've decided not to purchase the Chief. I'm putting my antique bicycle dreams on hold for now. So, good news for those of you out there who are interested in this find. The Chief is at Everything Vintage in Toano, VA. Their phone number is 757-566-1818 and their open today but then closed until Thursday, although I was there last Tuesday. If you talk to Jennifer, tell her Andy sent you.
> 
> Good luck and thanks again for all the great responses to my thread!
> 
> Andy




Okay, this should be fun...
I just found this thread this morning.  Thanks very much to all for this interesting info on the Chief, and to Andy for passing the contact info along - Hopefully a member here will be showing us more pics soon.


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## Hopkid

dfa242 said:


> Okay, this should be fun...




Could be a free-for-all, right? I was trying to figure out a way to make it as fair as possible but I'm so busy today with other stuff, I just didn't have the time to orchestrate something. Sorry folks.


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## Balloontyre

Might be worth a call to see what other bikes they have.


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## dfa242

Hopkid said:


> Could be a free-for-all, right? I was trying to figure out a way to make it as fair as possible but I'm so busy today with other stuff, I just didn't have the time to orchestrate something. Sorry folks.




Oh, no apology needed at all.


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## Hopkid

Balloontyre said:


> Might be worth a call to see what other bikes they have.




I took pics of the other bikes there that caught my eye. An old Snell, a Columbia, and a Firestone Cruiser.


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## scrubbinrims

These are right under my nose and I gave him a call...nice guy, but starting prices are high.
Thanks for the lead and look me up if you want to buy a more reasonable vintage bicycle that you can ride.
Chris


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## pelletman

What were the prices?


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## Hopkid

scrubbinrims said:


> These are right under my nose and I gave him a call...nice guy, but starting prices are high.
> Thanks for the lead and look me up if you want to buy a more reasonable vintage bicycle that you can ride.
> Chris




Great! Thanks, Chris!


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## New Mexico Brant

What a fantastic read we have here!  Thank you all for the education; I am sincerely indebted to members who contribute their vast knowledge and scholarship to our field of study.


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## mickeyc

I too enjoyed reading this old thread.  Being stuck at home has very few advantages.


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