# 1939 Hawthorne Zep Twin Bar CWC vs Snyder



## 39zep (Nov 29, 2019)

I'm trying to gather as much information as I can specific to the 1939 Hawthorne Zep Twinbar. My theory is there are far more Snyders than CWC examples left. The first four photos after the 39 ad are my examples of CWC twinbars. The balance of the photos are Snyders. Please post your pics of known examples and what you know of them, owner etc. Or if you can give me some insight into my photos.
Thanks in advance. Very Happy Holidays to you and yours.




I believe now owned by Joe M in PA. Might be wrong



My restored 39 CWC.



Brant's restored CWC.



Kickstand3's over painted CWC.



Chestnut Hollow's Jerry P's King Pin Snyder.



Unknown to me.



Harry Ward's restored Snyder.



Unknown to me. Ann Arbor Winner.



Unknown to me.



John A's Snyder.



Unknown to me, this was a Long Beach Cyclone Coaster Ride.



Jim F's Snyder.



Joe M in PA. CWC in fore ground, Snyder in back.



Recent find Snyder.



Unknown to me.


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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Nov 29, 2019)

What's the obvious differences ? Chain ring, or just serial number ? They all look same to my untrained eye.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 29, 2019)

Unknown Ann Arbor is @Oldbikes


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## Freqman1 (Nov 29, 2019)

I briefly studied these and I agree with your assessment. I also think there was more color variety with the CWC than Snyder. Of course either could have the CWC Shockmaster fork. V/r Shawn


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## CWCMAN (Nov 29, 2019)

I'm guessing that the Snyder's twin bar continues underneath the BB and the CWC does not ?

Bike pic 8 and 14 are the same bike.

Also Joe's bike in Pic 1 and 13 looks like the same bike to me.


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## saladshooter (Nov 29, 2019)

Here is another pic of Joe Mik's pair. It doesn't appear the bars continue under the BB.





CWCMAN said:


> I'm guessing that the Snyder's twin bar continues underneath the BB and the CWC does not ?
> 
> Bike pic 8 and 14 are the same.
> 
> Also Joe's bike in Pic 1 and 13 looks the same to me.


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## CWCMAN (Nov 29, 2019)

Is the Snyder frame the same as above on the BB?


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## 39zep (Nov 29, 2019)

frankandpam said:


> What's the obvious differences ? Chain ring, or just serial number ? They all look same to my untrained eye.



The 39 Hawthorne twinbar is one of the more complicated bikes out there. It was a one year only bike but two manufacturers. Even the fine print of the ad will tell you your bike is coming from New York or Cleveland. Easiest way to tell is the CWC has fender flips on both the front and rear fender. Snyder rear is straight. Also the fender bridge is straight on a CWC, Snyder is curved. Snyder fender braces have less of a curve to them. Snyder used aluminum truss bars(also came in two sizes) compared to chrome steel for CWC. There are a few others including sprockets, but that's the down and dirty details.


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## 39zep (Nov 29, 2019)

CWCMAN said:


> Is the Snyder frame the same as above on the BB?



Yes, The CWC and Snyder frames intersect into the Pedal crank.


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## CWCMAN (Nov 29, 2019)

I have more questions then answers but I'm also learning as we go. Great stuff.


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## 39zep (Nov 29, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> I briefly studied these and I agree with your assessment. I also think there was more color variety with the CWC than Snyder. Of course either could have the CWC Shockmaster fork. V/r Shawn



Thanks Shawn, I knew they came in the standard black, red and blue up until about 6 months ago. When I pulled the primer off my CWC frame I found it was originally wheat with black head and also saw the green on green that nickinator sold. I'm trying to confirm with jafco(who bought it) if its a CWC or Snyder. Happy Holidays!    Update...JAFCO's green on green is a Snyder.


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 29, 2019)

39zep said:


> I'm trying to gather as much information as I can specific to the 1939 Hawthorne Zep Twinbar. My theory is there are far more Snyders than CWC examples left. The first four photos after the 39 ad are my examples of CWC twinbars. The balance of the photos are Snyders. Please post your pics of known examples and what you know of them, owner etc. Or if you can give me some insight into my photos.
> Thanks in advance. Very Happy Holidays to you and yours.
> View attachment 1103517
> I believe now owned by Joe M in PA. Might be wrong
> ...




That’s not my bike , not sure who’s that is 



This is my bike , when I first got it . It sat in my office almost 2 years before I got the rest of the parts . I thought to myself where I’m I going to find the parts for this special bike . So I had a brainstorm and went back to the collector I bought the from . And sure enough there were all the parts I needed bolted on the wrong frame found the battery cage in a ziplock on a shelf . So I bought it . Hawthorne crazy knows this , he almost threw up when I told I found the rest of the parts . It a crazy story but this ride was meant to be mine. The frame is a over paint and hard parts that came on the parts bike were powder coated . All the Crome parts are original I believe. That why I’m scratching my head with it . Trying to figure out what direction to go with it now..
39 Hawthorne Zep /CWC 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Krakatoa (Nov 29, 2019)

Owners of each type should post shots of their bottom brackets from the serial number side. Also angle shots of the bottom bracket from the non chainring side would be useful.

Study the entry angles of the downtubes, and exits of the chainstays on the bottom brackets. Snyder joins it's tubes at the bb in a different fashion than CWC. They typically have some flare at the bb tube openings.

Btw best new post I've seen on this thread for awhile!

I do know of an incomplete Snyder version...one not pictured here...

@Wards Guy..


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## 39zep (Nov 29, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> That’s not my bike , not sure who’s that is View attachment 1103599
> This is my bike , when I first got it . It sat in my office almost 2 years before I got the rest of the parts . I thought to myself where I’m I going to find the parts for this special bike . So I had a brainstorm and went back to the collector I bought the from . And sure enough there were all the parts I needed bolted on the wrong frame found the battery cage in a ziplock on a shelf . So I bought it . Hawthorne crazy knows this , he almost threw up when I told I found the rest of the parts . It a crazy story but this ride was meant to be mine. The frame is a over paint and hard parts that came on the parts bike were powder coated . All the Crome parts are original I believe. That why I’m scratching my head with it . Trying to figure out what direction to go with it now..
> 39 Hawthorne Zep /CWC View attachment 1103600
> My mistake. Thanks for your input. Happy Holidays!
> ...


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## szathmarig (Nov 29, 2019)

I can't wait to hear more info.


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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Nov 29, 2019)

Interesting stuff for sure.


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## 39zep (Nov 29, 2019)

Krakatoa said:


> Owners of each type should post shots of their bottom brackets from the serial number side. Also angle shots of the bottom bracket from the non chainring side would be useful.
> 
> Study the entry angles of the downtubes, and exits of the chainstays on the bottom brackets. Snyder joins it's tubes at the bb in a different fashion than CWC. They typically have some flare at the bb tube openings.
> 
> ...



I will post pics of my Snyder and CWC frames at contact points tomorrow morning. Thanks for your input!


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 29, 2019)

More pics


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 29, 2019)

And more


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## WetDogGraphix (Nov 29, 2019)

I have no input on any of this......................................................but I think I need a cold shower after looking at all of these.......
Thanks @39zep


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 29, 2019)

Parts bike frame, sold here on Cabe


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 29, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> Parts bike frame, sold here on Cabe
> 
> View attachment 1103635



No holes for batterie cage on parts frame


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## 39zep (Nov 29, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> And more
> 
> View attachment 1103626
> 
> ...


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## Oldbikes (Nov 29, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> Unknown Ann Arbor is @Oldbikes




Mine is a Snyder...


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkView attachment 1103657


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## skiptooth (Nov 29, 2019)

thanks for posting ! like them all, very rare... Happy Holidays to all....


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## 39zep (Nov 30, 2019)

CWCMAN said:


> I'm guessing that the Snyder's twin bar continues underneath the BB and the CWC does not ?
> 
> Bike pic 8 and 14 are the same bike.
> 
> Also Joe's bike in Pic 1 and 13 looks like the same bike to me.



Edited out pic 14. The reason I started this thread was I made that connection a couple days ago that Joe's CWC was also the bike parked next to the truck in the grass. Really it's the only OG paint CWC version of the bike that I know of.


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## CWCMAN (Nov 30, 2019)

Jeff,
here is another Snyder. Not sure the whereabouts of this one. Someone sent me these pics of it earlier this year.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 30, 2019)

CWCMAN said:


> Jeff,
> here is another Snyder. Not sure the whereabouts of this one. Someone sent me these pics of it earlier this year.
> View attachment 1103726
> 
> ...



The bike is in Oklahoma-I shoulda stepped up and bought it when I had the chance. Edit--bike has since moved on. V/r Shawn


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## 39zep (Nov 30, 2019)

This was an old photo I was given. Only original paint blue one I have seen. I am not sure, but I think it was later restored.


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## CWCMAN (Nov 30, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> The bike is in Oklahoma-I shoulda stepped up and bought it when I had the chance. V/r Shawn



Bob U sent me these pictures. He was going to acquire it in a bike deal. I guess it didn't pan out for him.


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## saladshooter (Nov 30, 2019)

Once again, Joe Mik's bikes. Here you can see, although hard to tell exactly, differences in the light brackets between the two.


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 30, 2019)

Different stem also on Joes bike looks like the one on my 38 Hawthorne roadster


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 30, 2019)

The center piece that goes between the bars looks incorrect


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 30, 2019)

And the tank on this bike doesn’t fit like it should. There’s a lot pieces and original hardware needed to fit one of those tanks correctly


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## 39zep (Nov 30, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> And the tank on this bike doesn’t fit like it should. There’s a lot pieces and original hardware needed to fit one of those tanks correctly
> 
> View attachment 1103986



Looks like the front end took a pretty good hit and some low budget repair done. I've actually seen a few frames where the top bars are bent down causing that gap in the tank.


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 30, 2019)

39zep said:


> Looks like the front end took a pretty good hit and some low budget repair done. I've actually seen a few frames where the top bars are bent down causing that gap in the tank.



You suppose that blue bike is a non tank model?


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 30, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> You suppose that blue bike is a non tank model?



Fordmike65 has a blue non tank model


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## fordmike65 (Nov 30, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> Fordmike65 has a blue non tank model



The Hawthorne Twin Bars are completely different frames. Even the rarer CWC built HTBs don't have the dropped chainstays.


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## 39zep (Nov 30, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> You suppose that blue bike is a non tank model?



Tanks are more uncommon than 4 gills. So I wouldn’t think it was added.  I just think it was RODE hard.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> Fordmike65 has a blue non tank model




The non tank models are not Zeps. Here is one that I believe was here on the CABE (Snyder). V/r Shawn


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 30, 2019)

39zep said:


> Tanks are more uncommon than 4 gills. So I wouldn’t think it was added.  I just think it was RODE hard.



Thats true , first blue one iv ever seen tho and the light set up !


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 30, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> The non tank models are not Zeps. Here is one that I believe was here on the CABE (Snyder). V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 1104007
> 
> View attachment 1104008



If you look closely tho looks like it might have 2 holes where the battery cage might have been on that middle bar


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## Kickstand3 (Nov 30, 2019)

saladshooter said:


> Once again, Joe Mik's bikes. Here you can see, although hard to tell exactly, differences in the light brackets between the two.
> View attachment 1103743
> 
> View attachment 1103744



Different rods on Snyder and CWC


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## fordmike65 (Nov 30, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> Different rods on Snyder and CWC



Alum on Snyder?


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 1, 2019)

fordmike65 said:


> Alum on Snyder?



Yes Mike ,they are thicker so requires different light bracket


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## Freqman1 (Dec 1, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> If you look closely tho looks like it might have 2 holes where the battery cage might have been on that middle bar



Yes this is a Zep just missing tank. V/r Shawn


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 1, 2019)

This is the only original Hawthorne Zep /CWC , iv ever seen in my opinion


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 1, 2019)

Zep / CWC Fender tips Zep39 was referring to , like Supreme fender tips


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## scrubbinrims (Dec 2, 2019)

Truly rare bike and some are double tallied above.
Mine came semi-locally from a CL post 10 years ago among less competition and perhaps was my first holy grail ballooner.
Was missing the chainguard and I've never fiqured out how the rear wrap fits the larger 2-speed sprocket???
Factory tank cut out for the 2-speed shifter, which was a catalogue option.
Doesn't matter to me if its Snyder or a less common CWC (although I prefer the aluminum truss rods)...what does matter is the tank is present and original paint.
Chris


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## fordmike65 (Dec 2, 2019)

Move over Zeps. I see something meatier!


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## Nickinator (Dec 2, 2019)

It did have holes for a tank.  I also had a green model frme that had holes also.  Can't remember where that one went

Nick.



Kickstand3 said:


> If you look closely tho looks like it might have 2 holes where the battery cage might have been on that middle bar


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## Krakatoa (Dec 2, 2019)

fordmike65 said:


> Move over Zeps. I see something meatier!




The blue Flying Ace and Lady Clipper are not too shabby either!!

Great bikes Nick thanks for posting.


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## 39zep (Dec 5, 2019)

Hi, I was recently contacted by a long time collector. He really appreciated the content of this thread and added some more intel. He reminded me of Steve Castelli's red restored CWC 39 Zep Twinbar in the Evolution of the Bicycle, Volume 2. I also added another pic I had and but had screwed up and double posted another. I am posting a few more pics that were sent to me. My plan is to outline the differences between the Snyder and the CWC in another post. I also included a pic of the Green/green Snyder.

Question? In the JR Plank collection, there was an Original Paint Green body, white head 39 Zep Twin Bar. Any photos or knowledge of whereabouts greatly appreciated.









An earlier pic of Brant's blue/red.


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## scrubbinrims (Dec 5, 2019)

The bike with the sheet background after the evolution book pic is my bike in my attic where it remains hidden not ridden. Yes, there is a small piece of the fender missing behind the fork blade, but has remained intact...the tank has been impounded with the rest of the bike and not been a donor.
Chris


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## 39zep (Dec 5, 2019)

scrubbinrims said:


> The bike with the sheet background after the evolution book pic is my bike in my attic where it remains hidden not ridden. Yes, there is a small piece of the fender missing behind the fork blade, but has remained intact...the tank has been impounded with the rest of the bike and not been a donor.
> Chris



Awesome bike, CONGRATS!


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## Nickinator (Dec 5, 2019)

The green frame with fender and fork lock was my old frame.

Nick


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## Krakatoa (Dec 5, 2019)

@scrubbinrims 

Is yours a CWC or Snyder? Is the two speed an add on or?


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 5, 2019)

39zep said:


> Hi, I was recently contacted by a long time collector. He really appreciated the content of this thread and added some more intel. He reminded me of Steve Castelli's red restored CWC 39 Zep Twinbar in the Evolution of the Bicycle, Volume 2. I also added another pic I had and but had screwed up and double posted another. I am posting a few more pics that were sent to me. My plan is to outline the differences between the Snyder and the CWC in another post. I also included a pic of the Green/green Snyder.
> 
> Question? In the JR Plank collection, there was an Original Paint Green body, white head 39 Zep Twin Bar. Any photos or knowledge of whereabouts greatly appreciated.
> 
> ...



The truss Rods are different 
Sprocket....


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 5, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> The truss Rods are different
> Sprocket....





Kickstand3 said:


> The truss Rods are different
> Sprocket....


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## saladshooter (Dec 5, 2019)

Looks like Joe or someone has since changed out the chainring since that picture in the grass.


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 5, 2019)

CWC. Steel 
Snyder  Aluminum


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## fordmike65 (Dec 5, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> CWC. Steel
> Snyder  Aluminum



Not to mix the two....but this is also the case with HTB bikes.


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 5, 2019)

saladshooter said:


> Looks like Joe or someone has since changed out the chainring since that picture in the grass.



Every CWC has had this ring


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 5, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> Every CWC has had this ring


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## 39zep (Dec 5, 2019)

Okay! Here goes...Pics may not be in order. I am not an expert, just experienced. As we know bikes original equipment can be tricky, especially this bike. One year only, two manufacturers.
Truss Rods. Snyder used aluminum bars, but also used two sizes of truss plates. On Jerry Peters red one you can see how far his plate sticks out. Other Snyders used a shorter plate more compact plate. CWC truss bars were chrome steel and used the longer truss plate.
Sprocket. Snyder uses the 8 hole teardrop. CWC same but also the saw tooth sprocket on I think the later versions.
Fenders we talked about, pictured is the straight rear Snyder.
Fender braces on the Snyder had a slight curve, CWC more rounded braces and I believe the early CWC had the riveted gathering plate at the axle. See the tank version in the ad.
Snyder used the dust cover version of the sprocket and head tube hardware. CWC more standard hardware. In same pics you can see Snyder used a "butted" tube attachment point. CWC more standard.
Paint. Snyder bobbed the lower tank tube graphic, CWC finished the dart graphic on the lower tank tube.
Snyder rack had the curved attachment bracket on some, I don't think all, CWC standard eyelets.
Snyder rear frame gussets (rear axle) different shapes. CWC more square on top, Snyder more rounded.
I've seen some differences in the goosenecks, but nothing I can put my finger on other than most came with the three stripe deluxe stem.
Standard colors were black, red and blue. By far more black versions still exist. Within the last year or two I have seen the Green/green Snyder(was Nickinators, now JAF/CO's) and my CWC frame was originally wheat. Hard to say if one company offered more colors than the other, just uber rare bikes.
I think thats all I have. I welcome input or pics. What I have is not gospel, just observations. THANKS!


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## JAF/CO (Dec 5, 2019)

What ring is that ding ding ?

No the all don’t have that chain ring !!


jfkiller53@aol.com
1 (209) 481-9464
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JAF/CO (Dec 5, 2019)

How about this one !!


jfkiller53@aol.com
1 (209) 481-9464
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## saladshooter (Dec 5, 2019)

Looks like CWC has the two tone fender pinstripes that started on deluxe/supreme bikes in 39 vs Snyder single color pinstripes.


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## 39zep (Dec 5, 2019)

JAF/CO said:


> View attachment 1106213
> 
> How about this one !!
> 
> ...





JAF/CO said:


> View attachment 1106213
> 
> How about this one !!
> 
> ...



I bow to your greatness. Forgot to put that in. Would you say that went on the early version of the bike?


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## Krakatoa (Dec 5, 2019)

What is the story with the above ring? 

Here's another...


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 5, 2019)

Still haven’t seen a Green Zep 
Looks like I made the holes for the battery cage on this one


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## Freqman1 (Dec 5, 2019)

My hypothesis is that the CWC bikes could be had in any of the CWC color schemes. I was speaking to a fellow collector today about these bikes and we began to wonder how/where the bikes equipped with the shockmaster fork were put together. Possibilites are they were assembled at a Wards shop, CWC forks were shipped to Snyder, or a third party assembled the bikes for Ward. Thoughts? V/r Shawn


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## 39zep (Dec 5, 2019)

JAF/CO said:


> View attachment 1106213
> 
> How about this one !!
> 
> ...


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## JAF/CO (Dec 5, 2019)

Krakatoa said:


> What is the story with the above ring?
> 
> Here's another...
> 
> View attachment 1106219




The one I posted is a D serial number bike
If you count the teach you is a bigger chain plate maybe for a different bike
To bad your is also really worn


jfkiller53@aol.com
1 (209) 481-9464
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 39zep (Dec 5, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> My hypothesis is that the CWC bikes could be had in any of the CWC color schemes. I was speaking to a fellow collector today about these bikes and we began to wonder how/where the bikes equipped with the shockmaster fork were put together. Possibilites are they were assembled at a Wards shop, CWC forks were shipped to Snyder, or a third party assembled the bikes for Ward. Thoughts? V/r Shawn



Hey Shaun, I was on the phone with Jim when you posted. I think your theory is entirely possible. I believe there were a lot of transition year bikes built. Here is an example of a 38 “Y” frame with a springer and a person reflecto headlight as shown in the 39 catalog.


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## 39zep (Dec 5, 2019)

saladshooter said:


> Looks like CWC has the two tone fender pinstripes that started on deluxe/supreme bikes in 39 vs Snyder single color pinstripes.



Because we only have one original paint CWC example, I don’t think you can make that a hard and fast rule. Here is an original paint 37 RMS. Catalog states it should be red outside stripe and white inside stripe. But actual is red and red.


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## 39zep (Dec 5, 2019)

More info. Here is a CWC frame with the very rare 4 hole sprocket. Also you can see the finished paint dart on the lower tank tube. Interesting fact. Catalog shows it as a 39/40, but the serial number is a “D” which according to our charts says late 38 early 39.


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## Krakatoa (Dec 10, 2019)

I found the old fs post by @Wards Guy.. 









						Sold - 1939 twin bar- Zep style
					

Up for sale is a 1939 Hawthorne twin bar.  It has a lot of heavy patina but as you can see the blue is original. This one has been in front of my house displaying the American flag for years.  I hate to see it go but it’s time. The shifter handle in the middle is for display only.  Found it at a...




					thecabe.com


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## Kickstand3 (Dec 10, 2019)

JAF/CO said:


> View attachment 1106213
> 
> How about this one !!
> 
> ...



Here’s the same ring, unfortunately it’s a tankless model


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## fordmike65 (Dec 10, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> Here’s the same ring, unfortunately it’s a tankless model
> 
> View attachment 1108444



Good eye. That's the CWC built HTB that popped up a couple years ago.


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## Kickstand3 (Jan 17, 2020)

fordmike65 said:


> Good eye. That's the CWC built HTB that popped up a couple years ago.



I’m Really Digging this Ride!


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## fordmike65 (Jan 17, 2020)

Kickstand3 said:


> I’m Really Digging this Ride!



Easy there big fella. A CWC built HTB is the last piece I need to complete my Trinity of Hawthorne Twin Bars!


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## Barto (Jan 19, 2020)

Great thread, love all Zeps.  It was Zeps and Colson snap tanks that got me into the Hobby!  Would like to see a thread on the earlier Snyder 30's frames


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## poolboy1 (Nov 29, 2021)

39zep said:


> Because we only have one original paint CWC example, I don’t think you can make that a hard and fast rule. Here is an original paint 37 RMS. Catalog states it should be red outside stripe and white inside stripe. But actual is red and red. View attachment 1106326
> View attachment 1106327



Oh my..... Wow....Love it.


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