# What Is Your Perception Of The Wheelmen Website?



## Freyr Vængr (Jun 20, 2016)

*I have seen allot of talk about the Wheelmen in here recently.  I want to ask everyone frequenting these hallowed halls what their perception of the Wheelmen's website is?  I have a few relevant questions and would appreciate a response to whatever you have experience with.  *

*If you have no idea who the Wheelmen are or why they are relevant then please simply state that.*

*1.)  Have you ever been on the Wheelmen website and did you find the content relevant?  What is your perception of the entire website?*

*2.)  Have you ever tried to register for access to the forums and if so when did you try and what was your experience?*

*3.)  What is your overall impression of the Wheelmen Group as a whole.*

*4.)  Would you pay $30.00 a year to be a voting member of the Wheelmen?*

*Thank you for your time and help with this.*


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## Joe Buffardi (Jun 20, 2016)

This will be good!


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## island schwinn (Jun 20, 2016)




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## Princeton (Jun 20, 2016)

Scott,  1. - I've been on the site. I find it somewhat low -tech, compared to other forums, but very useful and informative.Posting pics is a bit of a chore,involving a Photobucket account,but not impossible.                                             2.-   registered  for the site, took 2-3 days for confirmation,  pretty uneventful experience....                                               3.- my overall impression of the group is that they are very helpful,informed  and encouraging to new members. I like the fact they organize events, parade rides , group rides and national meets.                                                                     4 - yes , I would                                                                                                                                                                     Scott , I realize Walter is your friend, but your case would be better served/heard over there , not here on the CABE. This is troll behavior , not helping WPB , or any one else's cause.  That yellow typeset is reason enough to get anyone banned.


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## Dale Alan (Jun 20, 2016)




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## Freqman1 (Jun 20, 2016)

Another one for my ignore list


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## David Brown (Jun 20, 2016)

Have been  member of the Wheelmen for about 22 years I think, hard to remember that far back. Love both the cabe and the wheelmen site. Just that some people open there mouth before they think. And yes it is a hard to put up pictures on the Wheelmen site. But it can be done.


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## Freyr Vængr (Jun 20, 2016)

princeton said:


> Scott,  1. - I've been on the site. I find it somewhat low -tech, compared to other forums, but very useful and informative.Posting pics is a bit of a chore,involving a Photobucket account,but not impossible.                                             2.-   registered  for the site, took 2-3 days for confirmation,  pretty uneventful experience....                                               3.- my overall impression of the group is that they are very helpful,informed  and encouraging to new members. I like the fact they organize events, parade rides , group rides and national meets.                                                                     4 - yes , I would                                                                                                                                                                     Scott , I realize Walter is your friend, but your case would be better served/heard over there , not here on the CABE. This is troll behavior , not helping WPB , or any one else's cause.  That yellow typeset is reason enough to get anyone banned.





My agenda is nowhere near as nefarious as you portray.  I want to determine what people congregating in this forum think of the service provided by the Wheelmen and the Wheelmen on a whole.  Consequently, my "case" is better served in here and not "over there".  Asking "over there" is not possible as so many of the people I want to ask are not allowed "over there" or have not been able to get access to the forums.  Thank you for your offer but "here is better".  

I want to know what people here are looking for in a website.  The CABE is a multifaceted jewel in the digital bicycle world with all the forums a bicycle addict could ever want.  I share my fellow CABE dwellers glee in the pre 1933 forum.  I want to know why it appears that the Wheelmen have a less than sparkling reputation in here.  I have been floating through these halls many years, long enough to know that there is an undertone of reverent respect as well as disdain for the Wheelmen.  I want to see what people have to say.  Why does this bother you?  What is it you are afraid of?  If I were you, I would embrace this as a brilliant opportunity and make the most of it.  Instead you sound less than happy and point of fact *combative*.

Did I strike a nerve?  I genuinely am sorry if I did.  Sometimes the hard truths are not easy to face.  However, once confronted, improvement can begin.

My objective is to learn what people think of the current Wheelmen incarnation.  In doing so I will see if an alternate reality is warranted.  After all, "over there" is only a rather new club who took the Moniker Wheelmen from the pages of history and have no exclusive or even legitimate claim to the name.  "Over there" is not even The American Wheelmen organization that was empowered in the late 1800s.  I think there may be room for growth here.  So I am testing the waters.  I am sorry if that bothers you.

Imagine a collection that is internationally respected becoming the backbone of a new Wheelmen web site.  Imagine a group of Wheelmen who share their catalogs for free instead of selling over copied copies of copies.  Imagine a group of Wheelmen who are dedicated to sharing knowledge rather than sitting on it lethargically.  Found a new catalog?  Post QUALITY scans of it online as a resource to be shared not a commodity to be exploited.  This is just one of many aspects that I think would nurture an alternate site.  I am so sorry that my market research threatens you.  But IF such were to happen the end user would be the winner.  You and your sandbox could become even more exclusive growing in on yourselves like some fractal devolving into infinity.

In closing, let me get this correct; You believe I should be banned for using *yellow type set*.  I cannot begin to tell you how insane that sounds.  In the future you may want to set up a 24 hour hold on posting any new messages as you clearly will regret similar comments later. 

Yea this survey should be done here with no threats of banning for ANY COLOR Font.  *Yellow Typeset*


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## rustjunkie (Jun 20, 2016)

Freyr Vængr said:


> ...Found a new catalog? Post QUALITY scans of it online as a resource to be shared...




Heck with the Wheelmen, let's see that here!




http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/pa...tions-schematics-non-discussion-thread.70318/


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## Joe Buffardi (Jun 20, 2016)

Interesting!


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jun 20, 2016)

I really see no point in having another bicycle site. "Give me convince or give me death"!.... Just put it all here on the cabe for free instead of charging 30 dollars a month or whatever. I've heard many a yarn spun about the Wheelman site....or more of the people who dwell there....

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## bikewhorder (Jun 20, 2016)

I'm confused by the hostility to what sounds like a legitimate query.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jun 20, 2016)

It's kinda like Adidas asking Nike how to make better shoes lol.... we are a bit protective of the cabe. We would rather not see it devolve into what most people's perception of the Wheelman site has become. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## corbettclassics (Jun 20, 2016)

Something is not right here!!!!!

I'm smelling something..


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## Dweber (Jun 20, 2016)

I thought this Forum was about Antique Bicycles Pre-1933 not peoples perception of another club. I think we are getting off track and need to refocus our thoughts to bicycles themselves. We have a great web site and forum here so lets not deviate from the  the purpose of the Antique Bicycles Pre-1933 forum.


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## Joe Buffardi (Jun 20, 2016)

There is a roster of names on the Wheelmen site. Make your survey and send it to all of them.


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## Joe Buffardi (Jun 20, 2016)

Just make the CABE your new place to share stuff. If I usually have second thoughts about a place, I wont go back the third time.


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## redline1968 (Jun 20, 2016)

Kinda reminds me of a car swap meet I attended. I brought classic bikes 50's and stingrays to sell. They were stuck in the old ways of its not old enough or the not interesting to collect and poo pooed me on them.  Now I'm going to the competition and they lost another seller participator. Either they change or they will dryout and blow away.


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## abe lugo (Jun 20, 2016)

1.yes been on- was sparse with content- it was way old internet days 2003ish. the forum was still threaded style-I think it actually still is.

2.was a member of the forums but after searching and finding no hits for what I needed or interest from other members I never went back.
My username must have been purged since it was in 2005/2006ish.

3.vintage elitist- there already a category for those people here and the boats is all full up anyhow. 
They jump ship from time to time but another elitist somehow emerges from the waters back into the boat. Like Zombies

4. nope.
As a member of the Fairlane club of America. Their site is a really good deal for 35 bucks a year. Full color magazine, archived articles, issues, tech files. Very helpful people and a great forum. They also have passion for all things Fairlane.
Just recently rejoined the HAMB alliance and am finding the the discounts are not all they are cracked up to be. You have to be buying ford parts for your Ford hotrod. Kind like buying Schwinn parts here.


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## Joe Buffardi (Jun 20, 2016)

I stopped going on the HAMB when they deleted some of my posts. They were very useful posts to stop fraud. There were bad dealings with cars and parts and people were not being held accountable for their actions. Im talking $25,000-$30,000 cars. I will never go back. And its not the same old HAMB it used to be.


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## Schwinn499 (Jun 20, 2016)

Dale Alan said:


>



Not to troll the already trollieness...and I have no business in this thread as it does not pertain to me what so ever...but my inner nerd wont let this go...as...this meme should read....

"A troll I smell"

...thats all....thank you.


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## Joe Buffardi (Jun 20, 2016)

yo da man!


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## Dale Alan (Jun 20, 2016)

@Schwinn499 

Thanks for the correction,that was great ! I never noticed the bad grammar.


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## barracuda (Jun 20, 2016)

I had no problem registering on the Wheelmen site. I don't check the site often, but when I do there are only a few new posts per day, often only one or two. 

Regarding membership, I see it confers to the member a variety of printed materials: newsletters, magazines, membership card, and bulletins. Frankly, I have to shake my head at all that. Information should be free. The cost of such information is part of what keeps this area of bicycle collecting a cul-de-sac. Elitism is built into the program. Surely a group of people who can spend tens of thousands of dollars on antique high wheelers can afford to publish their newsletters online for all to see. It makes me wonder whether or not they want people to become interested.

And now, here's a bitchin' motorized velocipede to look at. Pop a wheelie.


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## corbettclassics (Jun 20, 2016)

Is this Freyr Vaengr  -- Jr????

Please tell …..


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## catfish (Jun 20, 2016)




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## highwheel431 (Jun 20, 2016)

It's a free world.  If you don't like the Wheelmen, you don't have to join or go to their website. There are many of us who are members of the Wheelmen and also spend time here on the CABE.  The CABE is not an organization it is a website.  The Wheelmen is an organization that has a website that allows non-members access.  If you don't like the way the Wheelmen organization is run then join and get involved to change it.  Wouldn't the world be a dull place if everything was the same.  And yes the actual functioning of the Wheelmen website is archaic. That and other updates including putting research material and the Library on line are being worked on, but then non-members would not know that.


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## CrazyDave (Jun 20, 2016)

So many joke to be made here....


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## Freqman1 (Jun 20, 2016)

I'll take the website that is responsive, relevant, and user friendly--Thank you please drive through! V/r Shawn


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## Luchotocado (Jun 20, 2016)

I tried to register about 2 years ago and then again 1 year ago and never got approved.


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## bikejunk (Jun 20, 2016)

I have been a Wheelmen on and off for 20 + years had to cut out joining clubs I was spending 400 plus bucks a year on various dues Vmcc and lea Francis (England) club alone was over 100 with the postage--- model a ford hcca amca aaca more info on the net than in the clubs

 ---Hate to say it the internet usurped the old fashion way of info 25 years ago, club magazines was the only way to go... now this has taken over and it's free !!


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 20, 2016)

The Wheelmen as an organization has much to admire, but it is not for me..  I have no desire to dress up in a costume and drive 2000 miles  to the midwest for a meeting and ride a bike in the East Wazoo Suet Days Parade so I can be a voting member.  If they are really kicking Ed Berry and Walter Branche off the message board, damn them to hell, but there have been a LOT of highly opinionated members who left under their own power.   Facts would be good to have. There is a steady, vicious  and un-gentlemanly "2 minute hate" against anything smacking of a reproduction and some of the old coots there really should cool it.   Seems like a lot of un-necessary drama to me but there are those who thrive on it.  Let the heathen rage- it is actually kind of entertaining. There is a lot of knowledge there, but the organization as a whole is small, aging, and not web savvy at all. If you can't read the sticky saying Click Here To Register For The Message Board  maybe you won't have much to offer that board?   I've been flip-flopping memberships in the wheelmen and the veteran cycle club in Britain and I get more out of the British group especially when you compare publications and access to the National Cycle Archive.  I get the Wheelmen newsletter and it is sad.  They are voting on lifting their 1918 cut off date for bikes this summer, but they are not an inclusive group.  I strongly prefer the Veteran Cycle Clubs' view (paraphrased) of "we welcome any machines that may be of interest to our members".  I'm a bike geek more than a collector.


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## Freyr Vængr (Jun 21, 2016)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> It's kinda like Adidas asking Nike how to make better shoes lol....




Very apt analogy.  

But, No it is - Exactly - like that.  Same purpose, same intent.

Excellent perception.


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## bikebozo (Jun 21, 2016)

I am here to share any knowledge , sorry if anyone is thin skinned , people who know me 90 percent ,will have positive things to say . I owe no one for anything , ..  I have been ripped off by someone in each community , trusting etc.   My grammer,punctuation or whatever.   I am usually typing with 1 finger-- again sorry if that offends .. I have been involved longer than most of you have been alive ,..Opinions are entertaining ,none of this stuff bothers me .   I like the wheelmen site , for some reason ,I do not fit in with that scene.My mission is to acquire bikes ,sell bikes, trade bikes or parts .   If it matters ,I give lots  of bikes away to youngsters or oldsters , I help whenever and wherever I am able ..  There are many people all over the world,


 who I have made transactions with .There are lots of very nice bikes in museums , public and private -who display , bikes and memorabilia that came from me . Not boasting , bragging or what ever your generation calls it . Thanks TO/for the CABE , and the space they allow as a sounding board ,  sincerely   walter branche ,


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## tommydale1950 (Jun 21, 2016)

Walter ,Can you give Me one? just kiddin .I look forward to our next convo..Tom


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## catfish (Jun 21, 2016)

Walter you are not boasting, or bragging. Just talking the truth. If the wheelmen can't handle it, it's their loss. I'm glad to have you here on the CABE. 

Your friend,    Catfish


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## THE STIG (Jun 21, 2016)

Cheetos???


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## pelletman (Jun 21, 2016)

The membership fees for the Wheelmen are about $30 per year.  You are basically paying for a magazine twice a year which is very nice and 4 printed newsletters.  The membership fees don't even cover the cost of producing the magazine.  I think they should be more to AT LEAST cover that.  It isn't only parades we participate in, there are various meets all over the country for members to participate.  It is the premier antique bicycle organization in the country and if you are serious about participating with your pre 1918 bicycle - but realistically anyone one can participate who has an interest in old bikes - if you show up with something later or a reproduction almost nobody cares, we're just glad people want to participate.  Nobody should discourage anyone with any bike participating, if someone does that to you, let me know and I'd be glad to offer them my two cents.  I am not saying it doesn't happen, but the best avenue would be to just ignore whomever says anything about it to you.  Nobody is going to kick anyone out of a meet for having the wrong bike.  There are all kinds of people that participate, and yes some don't like to see repros, but that is too bad for them because the repro participation (particularly with Victory bikes) is a fairly strong percentage and lots of people don't want to worry about damaging original bikes or can't find one in their size or whatever.  The organization is open to ANYONE with an interest in old bikes.  You don't even have to own a bike.

I have lots of posts on the site, which admittedly leaves much to be desired with modern forum technology, but we are an organization of volunteers.

I'm not sure why anyone was banned, but I would bet it is the bickering that nobody wants to see.  It makes the club look bad.  I don't even know who had the authority to ban someone, I'd guess the webmaster, but he is new and I'd bet that decision isn't made by him alone.


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## Freyr Vængr (Jun 21, 2016)

rustjunkie said:


> Heck with the Wheelmen, let's see that here!



It requires one benefactor with an outstanding collection to start it.  After that others will learn of the collection and start to add their own.  

Your link is a great start.  Organize it and put it in a format that is easy to search.  Then you have a resource others can take pride in and contribute to. A knowledge base of data that we lose more of each day preserved for all users forever, for free.  

Selah!


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## Freyr Vængr (Jun 21, 2016)

pelletman said:


> I'm not sure why anyone was banned, but I would bet it is the bickering that nobody wants to see.  It makes the club look bad.  I don't even know who had the authority to ban someone, I'd guess the webmaster, but he is new and I'd bet that decision isn't made by him alone.




Dave,

That is the million dollar question. Ed and Walter both in such a short span of time with no explanation. 

These are two of the most important Wheelmen and to throw them away like so much trash is inexcusable, no mater who threatens lawsuits.  Frankly I wonder why they would sue the Wheelmen.  Is that really the type of the members you want in the Wheelmen?  Threaten Legal action and force out the mensch members is not a good model for members. I understand Ed will stop paying dues. I do not blame him. The Wheelmen have driven out a second generation family.  Are you proud of that?  Can you get answers as to what happened.  

Sorry to do this public but the leadership is so disconnected from the user that YOU are the first person to acknowledge this who is a god in the Wheelmen. Please help answer these questions.


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## bikebozo (Jun 21, 2016)

There are many collectors who do not participate in any club, or website. I see some collections that will make those that are  known about -look like beginners,... I think David is correct about the bickering , Someone was giving me grief about living with my mother ,,   and I would not sit there and take it , she is over 85 , and needs help , also has an enclosed 6 car garage ,that I use for all my stuff,. sorry if no one can understand that . Our family is close and friendly ,    I took care of my father his last 1 and a half years of life ..   I ask for nothing , I miss riding miles, almost 2 years ago ,I had 2 heart attacks and bypass surgery,,.. I do what I can ,..    My long time friend who did not drink,smoke , or do anything wrong -walked and ran 5 miles everyday for 20 years,took expensive custom vitamins , ate the best diet , Got ALS, or Lou Gerhigs disease , in 6 months he went from being A-OK to bed ridden and can not move . My point is ,,,...do what you can do , when ever you can do it-nothing is guaranteed,,,MY  thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread ,. I know where a bunch of bikes are ,looks like I will die with my knowledge , ..  I am fine with that !!!!Thanks to the CABE for the space , and the creation of this thread from my CZECH friend Freyer .


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## Joe Buffardi (Jun 21, 2016)

Your answer to the million dollar question is, fear.  So they extinguish a model citizen like Walter Branche. Does Walter have a following? Can he take members away from the site? Is he more powerful than we all think. I dont know or never met Walter Branche, but he seems like a pretty hip and outspoken guy. He can probably see right through all of us. Its not a bad thing. He has seen and dealt with many different walks of life. We are all different and that is what makes good entertainment!  My motto is, never above you, never below you, always beside you. That has worked for me through the years. 

Stay true to yourself and to the hobby, thats all that really matters if you want to matter.


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## pelletman (Jun 21, 2016)

Freyr Vængr said:


> Dave,
> 
> That is the million dollar question. Ed and Walter both in such a short span of time with no explanation.
> 
> ...




Ed has been banned for years now, so this isn't a regular thing.  I have not heard that anyone was threatening a lawsuit.  I'm not taking a position either way, I don't know all the facts in either case.  There have been other Wheelmen that are pretty influential that have commented here, I am by no means a god.  I'd rather see all these grown ups be able to get along, but I guess that isn't real world.  In any event personal dirty laundry should NOT be washed in a public forum like that, or like this.  I can see if someone screwed you on a deal making it public, I don't consider that dirty laundry.  I also think there should be at least a warning before someone gets banned, and I don't know whether or not that happened in Walter's case.  I think it did in Ed's case, I, personally liked Ed's posts and found him entertaining.  He is obviously extremely knowledgeable and I thought brought a lot of good information to the site.  

I personally REALLY didn't like the deleting posts and changing posts that happened, I thought that made the site - and The Wheelmen - look really bad.  Maybe that had something to do with the banning.  I don't really know, and would like to remain friends with everyone involved, so I don't want to take sides.  Peace out.


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## filmonger (Jun 21, 2016)

I find the wheelman site rather hard to navigate due to it's antiquated board....but - I find those who are on it informative and rather helpful at times. They are slow to answer questions - but when they do it is quite detailed and informative. I use it as a research tool and alternative resource to the cabe. Learning from others  ( that we do not see often ) can be quite enlightening and give you a new perspective. This said I was surprised at the tone of the site when I was last there. I found it odd and out of place with the general vibe.


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## Freyr Vængr (Jun 21, 2016)

pelletman said:


> I personally REALLY didn't like the deleting posts and changing posts that happened, I thought that made the site - and The Wheelmen - look really bad.  Maybe that had something to do with the banning.  I don't really know, and would like to remain friends with everyone involved, so I don't want to take sides.  Peace out.




You have been, and always shall be my friend.  Please forgive me for putting you in this situation. 

Thank you for your candor.  You ARE the best of what a Wheelmen claims to be!

Shalom


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## pelletman (Jun 21, 2016)

I don't feel like you put me in any position

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


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## catfish (Jun 21, 2016)

Didn't we go threw all this last year?.....

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/petty-crooks-the-wheelmen.76827/


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## Freqman1 (Jun 21, 2016)

catfish said:


> Didn't we go threw all this last year?.....
> 
> http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/petty-crooks-the-wheelmen.76827/




Yea I thought we had wrote them off as well. Just post here in this section and be done with it. V/r Shawn


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## filmonger (Jun 22, 2016)

The site is down now.....or maybe they have banned all cabe members - LOL


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## pelletman (Jun 22, 2016)

No, it's just down I'm sure..  Happens occasionally


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## chitown (Jun 22, 2016)

Freyr Vængr said:


> ... Imagine a group of Wheelmen who share their catalogs for free instead of selling over copied copies of copies.




Imagine a CABE site where you don't have to purchase a 1936 Silver King catalog scan from the owner of the CABE who is selling them instead of scanning and sharing them freely. Silver Kings as well as numerous other catalog collections from the balloon tire era. Someday a real rain is gonna come... and post all the scans on the street... the street of the internet. 

Selling catalog reprints aren't exclusive to the wheelmen. There is a movement to post such scans but it is not an organized or easily searchable collection anyway. It boils down to censorship. Like the monks who were the only ones to have access to certain books, catalog hoarders and re-sellers are going to have a limited reign and hopefully future enthusiasts will not have to pay for basic information found in these old catalogs and literature. These should all be in libraries like Hathitrust online or maybe searchable from local libraries.

TL;DR:  catalogs should be in libraries.


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## cyclingday (Jun 23, 2016)

All I know, is that if you're thinking about buying an antique bicycle that is being offered publicly. Check the Cabe and the Wheelmen sites, because if it's any good, they will be talking about it, and you'll find out all you need to know.
Both sites are great resources in their own ways.


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## pelletman (Jun 23, 2016)

chitown said:


> Imagine a CABE site where you don't have to purchase a 1936 Silver King catalog scan from the owner of the CABE who is selling them instead of scanning and sharing them freely. Silver Kings as well as numerous other catalog collections from the balloon tire era. Someday a real rain is gonna come... and post all the scans on the street... the street of the internet.
> 
> Selling catalog reprints aren't exclusive to the wheelmen. There is a movement to post such scans but it is not an organized or easily searchable collection anyway. It boils down to censorship. Like the monks who were the only ones to have access to certain books, catalog hoarders and re-sellers are going to have a limited reign and hopefully future enthusiasts will not have to pay for basic information found in these old catalogs and literature. These should all be in libraries like Hathitrust online or maybe searchable from local libraries.
> 
> TL;DR:  catalogs should be in libraries.




Catalogs cost money to buy and time and effort to scan.  If you choose to share freely that's your choice.  Many people do.  If you think catalogs should be free buy them, scan them and post them.  To say charging $5 or 10 bucks for a scanned catalog is censorship is just ridiculous.  Be thankful they are out there and someone has spent hours scanning them so you can even get the information at all.


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 23, 2016)

Take a look at the National Cycle Archive and Veteran Cycle Club Library-
http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/


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## corbettclassics (Jun 23, 2016)

I agree with Dave 100% on this because it really takes time to scan etc etc etc …..

I'm thankful that I can purchase catalogues from the Wheelman library for a mere $5.  Where else would
I find this information when I need it.  I really don't mind spending $5 on a catalogue from Ross.

I have actually purchased catalogues near $100 and then scanned them.  I have sent them to friends when they
needed the information.  I've never asked for a penny from anyone when they need info.  But I'm not running
an organization like the Wheelman.  I think $5 is a small price to pay when you're needing something important.

Has Scott Harrington ( or is it - Freyr Vaengr ) taken the time to buy catalogues and scan them and then take the
time out of his day to email them to us for free.  I wish he would because there is lots of info out there I'm still after.
Please post your list here Scott of the free catalogues you're offering so we can have you send us those.

The catalogues are at Copake all the time and sell in the hundreds of dollars if anyone feels like buying them and then
make them free to us for the asking!

Or - just buy the Barnes ( as an example ) catalogue for $150 and then scan it and I'll give you $5 for your effort.


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## corbettclassics (Jun 23, 2016)

Andrew Gorman said:


> Take a look at the National Cycle Archive and Veteran Cycle Club Library-
> http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/




I just did and tried 3 examples.  They didn't have one that I was looking for but Ross has them in the Wheelman library for $5.

I have always looked at the National Cycle Archive and will continue to look there.  It's nice when info is out there for us.  They
may not have everything but it is nice when you can find something through a simple search that costs nothing.


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## chitown (Jun 23, 2016)

I do agree that it takes time to scan these catalogs and I think there is a market for John Polizzi style catalog collection for a particular brand or style. I also think that what makes them worth money is the fact that they are not just individual prints but they are collections of images and there is commentary and background information to give context. This is the key in how I view catalog scans for sale. The individual images should be scanned and searchable in a digital archive. The images by themselves are a snapshot of history. Put them together with real life examples (the actual bikes) and you can begin to form a greater picture of that history. Like a historian, a person with knowledge (like John Polizzi) about bikes and who also has access to these catalogs can present a published document that combines this knowledge with the scans and photos of original bikes. This to me is what makes them worth money. But the fact that some of these scans are so rare and the ONLY way to see them is to buy the whole collection of scans then I have a hard time plunking down some cash for only a couple images needed for researching a restoration or just wanting to know more about a particular bike. The value of the original documents should remain high as the originality of the documents is what is rare, not the image itself or a single scan.

I talked with John Polizzi a few years back about original literature and the way they shed some light on our past and helped people learn about our history. I enjoyed the way he had fun with his books and challenged people to come to their own conclusions (after purchasing one of his books of course ). I think if coupled with commentary and context, a bicycle book could evolve just as much as the hobby itself has. Sites like the wheelmens and the cabe are incredible resources and the amount of shared information on these sites is vast. Web articles like Shawn Sweeney's Monark Super Frame 5-Bar, Huffman notes & observations and his collaboration with Gary Meneghin on the first American Balloon Tire Bike are worthy of print/publishing and the fact that it is here for FREE is truly amazing. There are many others like Mr Columbia, Gary MC, Fordsnake, filmonger and many other cabe members have also done some deep digging and offered up free sharing of info as to try and learn more about these machines. And others like the greatly missed Phil Marshall and even Uncle Leon who has chosen to go their own path that have yet to put pen to paper the full extent of their knowledge. So again, I would like to think the hobby could evolve to a point where _everyone_ had access to the original images but if a person would like to share their knowledge to go along with those images and that person wants to get paid for that knowledge, I don't have a problem with that at all. Let the market decide if their interpretations and commentary are worth the price of admission.  Meanwhile I'll be reposting any cool images I can get my little surfing fingers on... or maybe I'll just have to go to Catfish's place and have a scanning party that would last a month with each night ending in a drunken, rabble rousing, tall tail telling, Schwinn fueled bonfire. That would be an epic undertaking of historic proportions. 

TL;DR: In Hathitrust I trust


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## MrColumbia (Jun 24, 2016)

I will chime in here for the sake of the scanning and selling of catalogs issue raised. My name has been used in argument for this type of information to  be free to all. In fact, I sell catalog scans on my website and that is what helps to fund it. Personally I have scanned over 7,000 pages of catalogs and other Columbia related documents including over 400 separate catalogs. Imagine the time it took to do that! Now add to that the thousands of dollars Iv'e spent to acquire many of them. I do not think $14 is too much to ask for a cd with 2 full catalogs. By the way, my scans are not hastily done affairs. Most catalogs have the staples carefully removed and each page scanned individually for the best quality image. After scanning the original staples are replaced by hand. It's a very tedious procedure and a typical catalog may take a couple hours to process. 

 As sharing for free goes, I do that too. It depends on the situation. Many of my early catalog scans were traded for with Wheelmen of note. On the CABE I am more generous with free sharing because I feel free information is continuously available. It's an even trade as far as I can see. If a non CABE member comes to me wanting catalogs then that person will pay. 

 The bottom line as far a I am concerned is people should be compensated for their efforts in any venture. It may be money or trade or _just plain_ _friendship_. Nothing in life is free. That's not a bad thing. Even museums are forced to charge admission or they would not be able to share valuable history to all who seek it. If the wheelmen or anyone else feels the need to charge money for their efforts more power to them. If assorted members here want to share their catalogs for free then that's a great thing too. There is room for all approaches. 

 My 2 cents for the day,

Regards,

Kenneth A. Kowal, aka Mr Columbia


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## chitown (Jun 24, 2016)

MrColumbia said:


> The bottom line as far a I am concerned is people should be compensated for their efforts in any venture. It may be money or trade or _just plain_ _friendship_. Nothing in life is free. That's not a bad thing. Even museums are forced to charge admission or they would not be able to share valuable history to all who seek it. If the wheelmen or anyone else feels the need to charge money for their efforts more power to them. If assorted members here want to share their catalogs for free then that's a great thing too. There is room for all approaches.




As I said I don't have a problem with selling scans. I'm merely looking to the not so distant future when G00GLE scans in every printed document on earth... and they do want to do this. Access to these scans is currently being partnered with Universities and libraries around our country. Limited viewing is available on lit past 1922 (copyright laws) and later documents are accessible for research and from library computers. The Hathitrust catalog of bicycle literature is huge but is but a drop in the bucket to the volume yet to scan.

Ken, I agree that if a fellow off the street wants info on a bike, selling a scan or identifying a bike is a service that in most any other antique/collectable field is charged for. Like you said, funds from this help run your site. I think there is limited knowledge out there and not everyone is as passionate as many here on the cabe or the wheelmen site are on. Sharing on this site or others is what makes these sites tick. Otherwise I don't think most of us would be communicating (just look at the Break Room... if you opt in for that kind of abuse) let alone sharing VALUABLE  information on the history of these machines from many years ago. These websites/forums are a new way of communicating and sharing information. Common courtesies aren't always given and offense to typed words is not only common but almost inevitable. I don't want to give the impression that I don't believe a person has a right to make money off of their collective efforts and research. On the contrary, I would love to run a bicycle museum myself one day and charge for appraisals and research. So sorry if I come across as being a bit socialist with the Bernie style "Share the Scans" movement I'm pushing for.

For those not aware of Hathitrust check out some of their collections and marvel at the fact that these are searchable texts!

https://www.hathitrust.org/

*Motorcycle Illustrated series:*

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008608578


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## Jeff54 (Jun 25, 2016)

bikejunk said:


> I have been a Wheelmen on and off for 20 + years had to cut out joining clubs I was spending 400 plus bucks a year on various dues Vmcc and lea Francis (England) club alone was over 100 with the postage--- model a ford hcca amca aaca more info on the net than in the clubs
> 
> ---Hate to say it the internet usurped the old fashion way of info 25 years ago, club magazines was the only way to go... now this has taken over and it's free !!





That in a nut shell is why sites like that have little to no following. And it's not just that, many of the pre-internet collector clubs in all categories are suffering for it. "Free" beats pay every time, hands down.

to survive these days, gather members and continue, Google set the trend back in the 90's. Pay per click advertising.

I don't know if that's what's paying the bills here, but it seems it is helping. And I've owned 4 web site address` for the past 15+ years, for me son. Unfortunately he doesn't have the same, create the web pages, give it a year or two while you solicit the various advertisers to put their pay per click in it, and set back as it matures, vision I have. Skateboard-contest dot com. and 3 other ways to make search engines hit that. I aint gonna tell the whole vision but will say, I discussed it with a programmer/hacker years ago, and S.O.B! 6 months later he wrote it and caused my dot com addresses to hit his site.. however I didn't tell the dope all the details and he failed.  Me boy who is world re known thought at 14 and still at 29 thinks it's too dumb. little more than a year from now, I might just give em up.

Anyway, I've been there a few times, the site was too limited, looked as if, too get good data, has to pay, and it was easy for me to see or search that they had a very, very low tolerance for the general public. .. while in my case internet searches usually has what I need.

The Cabe, albeit, may have a few rude people, which is to be expected anywhere on the net, trust me on that because, I've been in internet groups before message boards came about, e-mails chains, where it first began:  fights, threats, anonymity brings out the worst, while The Cabe  seems to be ahead of the pack.

for a few years now, or more,  every collector group I know of, pre-internet, clubs with annual dues  etc. are near starved.


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## Junkhunter (Jun 25, 2016)

So I guess it's time for my 2 cents. I joined a couple of years ago. I enjoy the magazines and newsletters. The magazines are fantastic in my opinion. They were a bit slow getting my logins updated, but not long. 1 email to webmaster and it was taken care of. I went to an event celebrating the 150th Anniversary of the first bicycle patent in New Haven today. It was GREAT! We had a wonderful time. These guys are enthusiastic about cycling history. And that's a very good thing. There are guys like ColPope, Pelletman and Carey that are friendly, and will help me find a part, or info I'm looking for. Every other Wheelmen event I've been to was a good experience also. I like it myself.

i like it here a lot too. I visit this site every day. I find parts here. I sell parts here. I post pics of my bikes here.

Buuuut. I spend the most time on Facebook. It's just so fun and easy. The Wheelmen, and CT Wheelmen (shameless plug), and other old bike pages are sooo much fun.

People should be considerate of each other, and not be so quick to throw hurtful quips and remarks. Sounds corny, but from being in a motorcycle accident that left me in a hospital for 4 months, trust me when I say, NOBODY is promised tomorrow. Be kind to everyone. Especially your bike buddies. This hobby is fun, but nothing is fun when people their aggravated from verbal prodding's. They should never be given intentionally. But if you get one, maybe consider it was by accident, and contact that person (Privately) to work it out.

Peace to all. Teach a kid to ride a high wheel.


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## olderthandirt (Aug 31, 2016)

i am truthfully thankful for all the help you guys have given to me ,yes i joke a bit but its never meant to hurt anyone ,i have looked at the wheelman website often and would like to attend an event someday ,,i used to go to hershey every year and i had great fun but i have slowed down must be low testosterone dang it


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## Wheeled Relics (Sep 3, 2016)

Freyr Vængr said:


> Dave,
> 
> That is the million dollar question. Ed and Walter both in such a short span of time with no explanation.
> 
> ...


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## hoofhearted (Sep 22, 2016)

chitown said:


> As I said I don't have a problem with selling scans. I'm merely looking to the not so distant future when G00GLE scans in every printed document on earth... and they do want to do this. Access to these scans is currently being partnered with Universities and libraries around our country. Limited viewing is available on lit past 1922 (copyright laws) and later documents are accessible for research and from library computers. The Hathitrust catalog of bicycle literature is huge but is but a drop in the bucket to the volume yet to scan.
> 
> Ken, I agree that if a fellow off the street wants info on a bike, selling a scan or identifying a bike is a service that in most any other antique/collectable field is charged for. Like you said, funds from this help run your site. I think there is limited knowledge out there and not everyone is as passionate as many here on the cabe or the wheelmen site are on. Sharing on this site or others is what makes these sites tick. Otherwise I don't think most of us would be communicating (just look at the Break Room... if you opt in for that kind of abuse) let alone sharing VALUABLE  information on the history of these machines from many years ago. These websites/forums are a new way of communicating and sharing information. Common courtesies aren't always given and offense to typed words is not only common but almost inevitable. I don't want to give the impression that I don't believe a person has a right to make money off of their collective efforts and research. On the contrary, I would love to run a bicycle museum myself one day and charge for appraisals and research. So sorry if I come across as being a bit socialist with the Bernie style "Share the Scans" movement I'm pushing for.
> 
> ...





*Chris (chitown) ... Wow !! ... I don't believe I've
peeped this thread before.

The Motorcycle Illustrated series is wonderful.

Many THANKS to you, young man !

....... patric

 The Link is available by opening chitown's 
quote (above) and clicking on same at 
bottom of quote.*


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