# Was the Lighting Flyer a Dayton Badge?



## sam (Aug 13, 2006)

Looked kinda Daton--eey to me---sam


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## 37fleetwood (Aug 13, 2006)

Yes Lightning Flyer was a Dayton badge, or more acurately, they were both Huffman Badges. they also use Dixie Flyer and Davis Flyer.


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## Lightning Flyer (Oct 24, 2007)

Could you help me date my Lightning Flyer please? I can provide some pictures....

Here are some details....

Black hubs front and back with white lettering.

Lightning Flyer badge.

Not sure if the sprocket on it when I bought it is original but it has the big hearts as it's design.

Handlebars, gooseneck, and rims are all in cream colored paint with red pinstripe paint line on rims.

Original paint under red repaint looks to be the dark Moroon red color.

had no tank, but has a hole drilled through top tube in middle of bar where the tank goes.

Thanks,
Chuck


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## 37fleetwood (Oct 25, 2007)

Hi, photos would help as well as the serial#. the black hubs would indicate war time or just after the hole in the frame has me confused as the tanks at that time don't attach that way and have no holes in the frame anywhere.
Scott


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## Lightning Flyer (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok, how do I load them here? or I can send you them via email.

Chuck


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## 37fleetwood (Oct 26, 2007)

email is fine or there is a post or two on attaching photos
Scott


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## Lightning Flyer (Nov 3, 2007)

Did you get a chance to veiw the pics I sent to your email?

Thanks,
Chuck


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## 37fleetwood (Nov 8, 2007)

Hi, sorry it took so long. I did get the photos and thought I had replied, guess not huh?:o 
first very cool bike! I am partial to Huffman made bikes and this one is a good puzzle. first black hubs indicates war time or just after the war. the frame is right for war time the seat clamp and fender brace in the back was not used before the war as far as I know. the crank is wrong and looks to be from a Schwinn (I have the correct Dayton if you can't get one) the chain guard is about right for the war time / early post war time Huffman bikes. the wheels look like the ones on my 1944 Dayton except mine are cream colored. the photos aren't quite good enough for me to tell if it is in original paint or not. if so then it would be the only other wartime fat tire civilian transport bike I have seen. if not you might find OD (Olive Drab) green paint inside the head tube or crank housing. the hole is not correct for a tank as the Huffman tanks don't mount that way. if it was a military bike then it could have been drilled for a sign or other item, they wouldn't have thought twice before drilling. these bikes are surprisingly rare even though they were mass produced and then used for years. eventually many were auctioned off, scrapped or left military service in some other way. if it was civilian then it is truly rare as Huffman ads only mention lightweight bikes during the war. my only hesitation about it being a war time bike is the chrome. several possibilities come to mind such as after the war it was dressed up and this might be when it got the Schwinn crank, or it is from right after the war but close enough that they still had black hubs. sadly the serial numbers are too scanty to accurately use them for dating purposes, and your bike has the New Departure hub which is impossible to date. my bike has a Morrow hub which has a date code of Sept. '43 so I call mine a 1944 though any date reasonably soon after Sept. '43 is possible. there is a post about war time bikes which has more info in it if you are interested.
http://www.thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34&highlight=1944+dayton
here is a recent photo of my bike. let me know if you need more info.
Scott


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## Lightning Flyer (Nov 9, 2007)

Thanks for that info Scott....

So based on what you known then, this Lightning Flyer could not be from the years 1937 to 1940....or is that possible, I have read somewhere that this Bike may have been made as early as that...

And when you say Wartime Bike, what years are we talking about exactly....

You seem to be saying that this Bike could have been used by the Army during WWll, is that right? If it were, why would it have the Badge on it?

And to clarify, the rims are a cream color with a red pinstripe all round the far edges on each side the same cream color as both the handlebars, the gooseneck and the crank and looks to be light red under the cream color which may be a primer....there is No chrome on this Bike at all that I can see under the paint. I havent seen any drab green color, but have seen a dark Maroon color....Also I noticed it has the brass filet brazing at the joints....I think they call this "Aircrafted" welding.

I have seen some old adds of Huffman Bikes having the Big Hearts sproket that Schwinn had on their Bikes.

Also, I did once take the crank off and it had the letter D and the number 4 stamped on it, but not sure what that means. 

I was also told once by Dave that the seat looked older than the Bike was.


Scott, I would be happy to find out more about a Huffman chain guard and Horn Tank like you have on your Bike. Also would like to find a correct Rear Rack and the front Spring Forks that would work for this Bike....

Thanks,
Chuck


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## 37fleetwood (Nov 9, 2007)

ok, let me try to answer the questions I can. 

it is not possible that your bike is from the 1930s at all in any way, and not likely it is from earlier than 1943. all the 1941 and 1942 bikes I have and have seen have 3 subtle differences from the 1943 and later bikes. 1. seat clamp (brazed in 1942 and earlier and clamp later). 2. rear fender brace (straight tube 1942 and earlier curved brace later) 3. rear drop outs ( smaller threaded 1942 and earlier and larger with a nut later).

by war time I mean a bike made after the government stopped civilian production. there are lots of people with bikes from 1942 who consider their bike to be war time but technically production was stopped in mid 42 through 1946. 1942 usually means pre war and 1947 is post war.

the badge is curious it probably indicates that your bike was civilian transport. most of the military bikes I've seen had Dayton badges. it is unlikely to have your badge on a military issue bike but not impossible I think. the colors also indicate civilian. all military bikes were OD green all over. yours was probably dark red and cream.

the sprocket on your bike is definiteyl Schwinn. Huffman had a heart sprocket in the mid '30s but it is quite different from the Schwinn. it looks heavier. the Schwinn is actually better looking. here is a Huffman crank.




here is a Schwinn





the crank should have an "H" on it for Huffman.

the seat does look older.

the chain guard on my bike is pretty common dayton stuff from about 1941-1947 later ones look similar but lack the grille on the front. 1940 looks the same but has a raised line going over the top starting at the grille. earlier they are totally different and wildly expensive.

the rack is common through the period though there are a few different ones. technically your bike wouldnt have had a tank, rack, or springer. I put the tank on mine because it is the correct later tank but would never have come on it. the war time bikes were very plain. you need to decide if you are concerned with the fact that you have a fairly rare part of history or just want to have a cool bike and dress it up as much as possible. I put the tank on because it looks cool and is easily removable. if you find a springer you take a chance that the original pieces will get separated from the bike and its true history lost.

are you truly attached to the bike? are you interested in it being a very plain bike from the war time? if not let me know I have several Huffman projects we could make a deal. I would love to have your bike. I also have several non Huffman projects. to me it should be kept as original as possible.

any more questions feel free to ask, I never tire of talking about Huffman bikes. I also have hundreds of photos of bikes and parts.
thanks
Scott


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## Lightning Flyer (Nov 9, 2007)

Yes I am quite fond of this Bike....I have just this one and it is the only one I have ever had...I got it from an antuiqe store in Spokane Washington back in 2003. 

I have got some extra stuff from ebay auctions over the last few years that I thought would look good on it, but I have been more and more latley thinking of keeping it more plain and more original in its looks and wanting to know more about the year/years it was made and more about it in general....

It looks like we may have a lock on the years that this Bike was made then. I'll try to clarify a few more things below in answer to your statments. Also a few Qs to try and fix the date a bit closer in.


You said: "the crank should have an "H" on it for Huffman."

Yes the crank has an H stamped on it not a D like I thought....But why would it have the Schwinn skip tooth spocket on it? Could it have been added later by someone?


You said: "seat clamp (brazed in 1942 and earlier and clamp later)."

The seat post clamp on the Bike looks like it is brazed welded in brass to the seat post tube. 

You said: "rear fender brace (straight tube 1942 and earlier curved brace later)"

The rear fender braces on the Bike are straight like your Red Bike pictured.


Q: Do you think that this chain guard is an original piece? or would it have came with the parrot beak type like on your Bike? 

Also when I got the Bike it had a Schwinn phantom type rear fender reflector. May have been added later? Not sure how early those were made by Schwinn of if others made them or if they were put in other Bike of the time by the Huffman.

Q: What would be the correct of original tires that would have been on the Bike? Carlisle Lightning Darts perhaps? When I got it, it had the red brick Schwinn type copy of the Typhoon tires. 

Also what is the right type of seat if this one is too old for it? Pictures would be great here if you have them....

Q: What would they use the hole in the top tube for? To hang something from?

Q: What do you mean by "the government stopped civilian production" ?

Q: What do you mean by "civilian transport." ?


Thanks,
Chuck


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## 37fleetwood (Nov 9, 2007)

ok, you asked for it!

a question for a question. is your crank chromed or painted? the sprocket is definitely Schwinn and definitely must have been changed at some point. I have the correct Dayton sprocket in chrome you would have to remove the chrome or they show up on ebay fairly often. mine came black crank and sprocket.

seat clamps: on the earlier bikes there is no clamp. just 2 eyelets brazed to the seat tube. later bikes have a very standard looking seat post clamp arangement. also the upper fender attach point (not fender braces) on the earlier bikes is a piece of straight tubing with a hole drilled in it. later bikes have again a very common looking upper fender attach point. it is curved with a hole in it. same kinda thing on the bottom attach point early straight tube, later straight non tubular. (I'm going to get better photos from my bike tomorrow)
here is the clamp type with curved upper fender bracket





here is the brazed type with straight tubular upper fender bracket





in answer to your chain guard question (notice the Columbia sprocket it has been changed. Columbia was the only other manufacturer to make bikes during the war.



in this one you can clearly see the OD green paint under the airforce blue. they did not deviate even for other branches of the military.


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## 37fleetwood (Nov 9, 2007)

continued:

here is a photo of the correct reflector:




tires would most likely have been U.S. Royal, maybe Davis Deluxe not sure. likely black wall as white walls are kinda a post war thing.

my bike has a fairly common Persons seat here is a photo of my 1942 Pilot with the same seat on it (maybe I'll get a close up of that too).





the hole? who knows it could be from any time and could have been for anything. is it a drilled hole or could it be rust or other damage?

civilian production: the government stopped the production of all non essential non war materials. cars bikes refrigerators all kinds of stuff. to get a bike during the war you had to go through the government and show that you had a genuine need for one. they then gave you a cupon which you could then take to the store and use to get one.

during the war Huffman had 2 designations for their bikes, the one you could buy was known as the civilian transport model the other had a military designation.

did you read the 1944 dayton post? it has some of the same info in it. I have a web address that has lots of wartime vehicles on it I'll try to find and post it.
Scott


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## Lightning Flyer (Nov 10, 2007)

Yes the hole is a drill hole indeed...and the crank is painted the red color of the Bike frame, which I belive was done by a previous owner, because the Darker Maroon Red is underneath the fire Engine Red paint that was poorly done.

The Chain Guard may be correct then, since I see your pilot having one like it...I thought these were made for/by Columbia...??

I have a black dayton sprocket like on your red Bike I could put on it. 

I put some Carlisle Red Gumwall Balloons on it a few years ago, cause it went sweet with the red and cream colors of the Bike, but I think they are the wrong age for this Bike.

So based on these observations...looks like manufacuring is nailed down to the years 1943-1946.

I am happy to know this finally! Thanks for the info Scott, and I'll read that post you talk about here. 


Chuck


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## kyle (Oct 11, 2010)

wish I knew more about my lightning flyer. I'm lost in a huge bike world with no answers


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