# 30's Colson Motorbike serial number location?



## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

Hi, I'm trying to find the serial number for a 30's Colson Flyer motobike frame. Nothing found on the BB or seatpost downtube. Any help is appreciated.


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## Archie Sturmer (Nov 8, 2021)

Looks like a Colson *lug* *frame*, but how many lugs can we see in the pictures?
Not all joints were always lugged; sometimes only two or one lug pieces.
If the bottom bracket crank hanger is not lugged, then I believe it should have been stamped; (and lugged bottom brackets were undersized).  Get a bigger grinder?(!)

Trying to think what might happen to a cast or forged lug fitting if struck hard enough with a big hammer and a sharp pointed stamp tool.








						Please help needed to identify these Frames | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

I picked up these Two Frames the other day and not to versed on what I believe are Motobike frames .. I noticed one frame has trumpet fitting and the other seems to have a unique seat tube … Any help will be greatly appreciated  Thanks Everyone  Bob




					thecabe.com
				




Oftentimes casting part numbers are found in the lug pieces (e.g., B320), but those are not serial numbers. Maybe “B321” means 1932 Bike; (but 1932 already is my standard guess for Colson lug-frame bicycles).

I have 3 Colson triple-lug frame projects.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

Here are a few more pics.


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## SKPC (Nov 8, 2021)

Probably not Colson. Looks Columbia-like. Too many layers o paint & badge should be ignored in determining maker.
I have seen pre-33 serials on R side of head tube/maybe seat tube.(under paint)


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## tjkajecj (Nov 8, 2021)

If it is a Colson, might be earlier than '33, all of my mid thirties Colson are of a different design than yours.
Different spacing between top bars, different chain ring, drop stand design and no lugs.

1933 for comparison below


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

SKPC said:


> Probably not Colson. Looks Columbia-like. Too many layers, badge should be ignored in determining maker.



I was kinda leaning that way myself.....only one screw in badge, not rivets. Would Columbia bikes have the # on the BB?


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## fordmike65 (Nov 8, 2021)

It's a Colson. I had a similar bike years ago but it ended up being way too small for me.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

fordmike65 said:


> It's a Colson. I had a similar bike years ago but it ended up being way too small for me.
> 
> 
> fordmike65 said:
> ...


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## fordmike65 (Nov 8, 2021)

Yea, it had the same lugged construction & badged Silver Ring. I actually saw it at the Coasters Swap yesterday sporting a new paint job, Velocity Blunts & still being enjoyed by the owner.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

Here are more. The top tube sure has a gentle bend. Not much room for a tank, if it came with one.


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## fordmike65 (Nov 8, 2021)

ian said:


> Here are more. The top tube sure has a gentle bend. Not much room for a tank, if it came with one.
> 
> View attachment 1509530
> 
> ...



Looks like gold pins(if orig). I've seen that on many earlier Colsons including my 37 Equipped Motorbike.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

fordmike65 said:


> Looks like gold pins(if orig). I've seen that on many earlier Colsons including my 37 Equipped Motorbike.



Yeppers.  Gold pins on the frame and fork, and gold pinstripes on the fenders.


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## SKPC (Nov 8, 2021)

Mike is right I think....I remember Mark T-3 had one similar with similar rear forks/adjusters that may have been for one or two years. They had a few variations or two...another one on the bottom.


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## fordmike65 (Nov 8, 2021)

SKPC said:


> View attachment 1509659
> View attachment 1509658



That's the one I had...I think 🤔


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

SKPC said:


> View attachment 1509659
> View attachment 1509658



Looks similar,  but I  think the top tubes may be closer together on the one I just got. I also have a different chainring on it. Maybe not original?


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## fordmike65 (Nov 8, 2021)

ian said:


> Looks similar,  but I  think the top tubes may be closer together on the one I just got. I also have a different chainring on it. Maybe not original?
> 
> View attachment 1509664
> 
> View attachment 1509665



That looks like a Columbia DD set up. Probably a ladies chainring. The grey one had an older Fauber if I remember correctly.


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## SKPC (Nov 8, 2021)

Westfield/Pope/Columbia DD crankset.  Must look for serial.  EDIT: _Frame serial number...._


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

fordmike65 said:


> That looks like a Columbia DD set up. Probably a ladies chainring. The grey one had an older Fauber if I remember correctly.



It's definitely smaller diameter.  I haven't counted the teeth yet.
It's 22 teeth.


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## fordmike65 (Nov 8, 2021)

Here it is behind the Chief at yesterday's CC Swap 



Upper left in this pic


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

SKPC said:


> Westfield/Pope/Columbia DD crankset.  Must look for serial.



Would there be something cast into the crank arms? A number or symbol?


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## fordmike65 (Nov 8, 2021)

ian said:


> Would there be something cast into the crank arms? A number or symbol?



Some are stamped POPE. Not sure on this one tho. It's definitely not Colson.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

SKPC said:


> Westfield/Pope/Columbia DD crankset.  Must look for serial.



Where should the serial number be on a Westfield?


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## SKPC (Nov 8, 2021)

Additionally, for future reference below.  Ian, can we get some good pics first bud?  Fork? Close ups?  Too much guessing if you have the whole thing in hand....🙃
Columbia




MIami



Emblem



Westfield/Pope


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## Archie Sturmer (Nov 8, 2021)

I would recommend not spending too much time trying to *date* a Colson bike based on a Westfield crankset.
Knowing that both Colson and Westfield did, at one time, use under-sized bottom bracket crank hangers, (although *not* the same size), I would triple check the dimensions of the bottom bracket crank hanger; (but think standard size is most likely).
Since a proprietary and special dimension Westfield crankset is incorrect for a Colson bike, I would set aside for a future pre-1933 or so Westfield project; since a standard crankset might work on your Colson, but might not work on some pre-1933-ish Westfield bikes.

And since this bike is not your first Colson (i.e., 1935-H), perhaps consider getting out of the Westfield business(?), and sell the Westfield parts to another with worn-out odd coarse 20-tpi bearing cones(?).

My _*expectations*_ for 1935 Colson motor bike owners (both of you two), is to know the difference between a Westfield and a Colson. (I would be challenged to even find an example of a Westfield lug frame short motorbike on the CABE). https://thecabe.com/forum/search/883779/?q=Colson+lug


The bottom bracket crank hanger looks like some paint could still be hiding a serial number.


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## fordmike65 (Nov 8, 2021)

SKPC said:


> Additionally, for future reference below.  Ian, take some good pictures bud!  Fork? Close ups?  too much guessing seeing you have the whole thing in hand?
> Columbia
> View attachment 1509731
> MIami
> ...



The fork is also looking Colson to me. Just going by the pics posted.


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## SKPC (Nov 8, 2021)

Like I said earlier..just had to look Ian. Will you look at that Bad-arsed seat pillar?   If it was a long one I may pass out. @fordmike65






With Snyder aluminum truss nuts, wrong top nut, stem(?), upper cone and spacers. And as FM mentions, correct trussy plate/fork.



You can't make good decisions without all the information can you?  I think Mark blew it selling this one...He was the one though who took the time to find it....@tripple3?  Great information. My intuition tells me 1932, leading into the Alphanumeric combos


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

With a placeholder rim  and drop stand temporary.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

Seatpost pillar.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2021)

The fork just temporary.


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## ian (Nov 10, 2021)

SKPC said:


> Westfield/Pope/Columbia DD crankset.  Must look for serial.  EDIT: _Frame serial number...._



@SKPC, I've searched the steertube and BB again and still no evidence of a serial number. I'm thinking maybe in it's earlier life it was stolen and the # ground off. Just a thought.....


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## Archie Sturmer (Nov 10, 2021)

I believe that on one frame that I have seen, the head tube casting number was on the top left versus the lower right, with the frame top side up, and not backwards.
I forget if it was the same B320, maybe I should have written it down; then I also saw casting numbers on the lugged bottom bracket crank hanger, but forget what that number was too, or if that one was the same bike.  I’m no help at all.


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## ian (Nov 10, 2021)

Archie Sturmer said:


> I believe that on one frame that I have seen, the head tube casting number was on the top left versus the lower right, with the frame top side up, and not backwards.
> I forget if it was the same B320, maybe I should have written it down; then I also saw casting numbers on the lugged bottom bracket crank hanger, but forget what that number was too, or if that one was the same bike.  I’m no help at all.



I'll look on the upper left in the morning. Thanks for the heads-up. 
Ian


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## ian (Dec 1, 2021)

Still no evidence of serial numbers anywhere. I did find an image or two of a very similar bike here on theCABE owned by @tommydale1950.
He says his is 1928 so I'm thinking the same with mine.
Ian


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## Archie Sturmer (Dec 1, 2021)

I agree, to pick a date or a range that one is comfortable with, and maybe someday more information will be newly discovered or shared.








						`1928 ? Colson Flyer | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

One of my favorite finds. when I bought this it was represented as a 1928 , only #s I can find on it are 4776 on the head tube. Still waiting its turn to be made rideable again. I tried putting the rims and tires from my 35 Colson but too wide on front and they are a balloon tire 26 x 2.125 was...




					thecabe.com
				




I like to postulate that all of the lug frames are generally earlier, perhaps with the exception of the 1934 Hi-lo (with a lugged and forged transmission box and bottom bracket crank hanger), and that frames with only one forged lug piece are later than those with two, and that frames with two forged lug pieces are later than those with all three.
I think that some have 2-piece cranksets, presumably earlier than those with a OPC?
Some have the forged fork crown and others have the laminated plates.
And some have different rear fork ends and chain tensioner arrangements.


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## ian (Dec 1, 2021)

Thanks @Archie Sturmer. These motobike frame are my favorites.


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