# Datin' a Dayton (Davis Sewing Machine Co)



## tailhole

I picked this up recently.  I couldn't find a serial number.  It's a 28" tire Davis built Dayton frame.  I was hoping someone could help date it.  I was thinking of putting this 30 tooth crank on it, but it looks like it might rub the frame.  Not sure, no cups.  Looking for the cups, proper crank setup, Dayton ring, etc.  Thank you in advance for any help, info or advice.  
*Last photo added on 6/25/2013, went for a test ride this Sunday, broke steer tube, it's going to be repaired shortly...


----------



## dave the wave

turn the bike upside down a take a pic. of the serial  num.on the crank hanger.


----------



## tailhole

*Photo of bottom bracket, no numbers*

I couldn't see any indication of a serial number.  This is the very bottom of the bottom bracket/crank hanger.  Looks like it was originally blue. Any thoughts?


----------



## hoofhearted

*CONGRATULATIONS !!! ........... It's A YALE !!!!!*

THE YALE was produced using a Dayton frame ... the only other line of Davis Bicycles to do so.
The fork is a YALE fork.  

I used Paint.Net to sharpen the foto of the bottom bracket.  A lack of serial numbers is fairly  
common with Davis-built rides.  The fork is correct for a YALE.  In addition, the YALE has been 
observed sporting a Dayton fork and also the very-common Davis 3-plate honeycomb crown fork.

...........  patric cafaro


----------



## bricycle

what bike.....I can't get over how tidy your workspace is!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Mine looks like a garbage dump exploded.
Kool chainwheel!


----------



## tailhole

*Yale*



hoofhearted said:


> THE YALE was produced using a Dayton frame ... the only other line of Davis Bicycles to do so.
> The fork is a YALE fork.  The YALE has also been observed with a common, Davis
> 
> I used Paint.Net to sharpen the foto of the bottom bracket.  A lack of serial numbers is fairly
> common with Davis-built rides.  The fork is correct for a YALE.  In addition, the YALE has been
> observed sporting a Dayton fork and also the very-common Davis 3-plate honeycomb crown fork.
> 
> ...........  patric cafaro
> 
> View attachment 101227View attachment 101230View attachment 101231View attachment 101232




Cool, thanks for the clearing that up.  But could it be a Dayton with a Yale fork?  I ask because there is still a ghost image of the Dayton badge on the front, under the badge - like the paint faded everywhere but behind the badge.  Either way I dig it.  And hope to get it back together.  Anyone have a catalog link, I'd like to find this blue color and repaint it.  Thanks.

And Bri, somedays it looks like a bomb went off in there too.


----------



## hoofhearted

tailhole  ... Davis shut the factory doors in Spring of 1923.  The Shelby Bicycle Co. purchased the remains.  
It is known that Shelby produced that Dayton .. using a Yale fork .. which could be had with an underbolted 
truss-rod support plate and individual truss-rods.

The Dayton was available ONLY in carmine/black accents ... AND ... black/carmine accents ... when produced 
by Davis.  The Yale was available only in cerulean blue/white accents .. when produced by Davis. 

However, when Shelby was producing entire bicycles from parts purchased from Davis .. Shelby was free to 
paint the bicycles whatever color scheme Shelby desired.  In mid-1923 .. you could be the owner of a Shelby-
built Dayton ... having a Dayton badge and chainring ... painted cerulean blue .. having a Davis-built Yale fork .. 
and sporting ABSOLUTELY NO SERIAL NUMBER.  Your Blue Dayton could even have fenders with a half-inch 
dropside ... something Davis never utilized .. but, Shelby sure did.   When Davis shut the door in 1923 ... 
the Yale badge went to D.P. Harris ... But Shelby had the Yale components AND the cerulean blue paint.

Google cerulean blue ... a very-interesting color.

You are very-fortunate to have a Dayton that could be painted that color blue.  I really do believe your ride 
is Shelby built ... from Davis components.

...................  patric cafaro


----------



## tailhole

*Encyclopedia Brown*

Wow!  Thanks for that in-depth history lesson.  Great info, sounds like that covers everything.  I appreciate it!  Love the CABE!!!


----------



## hoofhearted

tailhole ... saw your PM and I returned same with a message to contact me direct .....

hoofhearted121@yahoo.com

I don't trust the PM feature to actually work consistently .. this lack of trust for 
high fah-loo-tin electronic, communication devices is a tangent-feature of my OCD.


----------



## jpromo

I think this finally confirms the Davis build of my Spartan Chicago Cycle Supply badged bike. I was thinking early-mid 20s and either Schwinn or Davis built. Any vibes you get from this, hoof? Serial looks to be 454223. So many different colors under this one, it's hard to tell which is original.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Just when ya think ya seen you've everything .......*

tailhole AND jpromo ... I had saved some pics of Scott McCaskey's 1923 and later Dayton frame .. but built by Shelby as a Speedway Special.

The fork is almost-exclusively Yale.

That truss-rod support bracket is a Shelby thang ... offered in two sizes ... single-tube tire AND balloon.

.................  patric cafaro

ALL APPLICABLE FOTOS HAVE NOW BEEN ADDED THRU EDIT 6/26/13


----------



## jpromo

My fork is actually all one solid piece, truss arms are part of the shoulder and the rods are braised down at the bottom like the old Davis frames. I can get a better picture of my fork but is it likely a pre-Shelby Davis, if that's the case?


----------



## hoofhearted

*Wha' ??   SHOW ME DA FORK ... pul-eeeeZe*

jpromo ..... DOOD ... I gots to peep tha' fork ...... I got my eyes dialed in on "TRACTOR BEAM" ... I beez reddy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bricycle

hoofhearted said:


> jpromo ..... DOOD ... I gots to peep tha' fork ...... I got my eyes dialed in on "TRACTOR BEAM" ... I beez reddy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> View attachment 102112




...youse guys know better than to dissapoint the HOOF right????.....


----------



## jpromo

Here be the pictures. Picture shows old paint colors to be yellow, green, blue and red. Red may be primer and blue was original color? Or it could have been stripped before then. Same frame used on some HD bicycles.


----------



## bricycle

red MAY be primer...


----------



## Balloontyre

jpromo said:


> Here be the pictures. Picture shows old paint colors to be yellow, green, blue and red. Red may be primer and blue was original color? Or it could have been stripped before then. Same frame used on some HD bicycles.



Whats going down man, all good I hope.
That looks like a Schwinn fork to me. Very Schwinn.


----------



## jpromo

Hey Ivo, thanks for the input. I was thinking the whole bike was Schwinn since I got it but Davis just came to mind when I saw this thread. I'm not terribly well-versed in motobikes but I'd never seen a Schwinn fork with braised on truss rods (I don't doubt their existence though!). The frame and fork both reveal the same colors and layers of paint so they've been together a long time if not forever.

The reason I thought Schwinn all along is because of these two bikes on Nostalgic. They feature the same lugs up at the headtube with the mushroom in the middle bar as the Davis frame does. Looking at the non-truss fork, it looks like the same profile of my truss arm one. I've still yet to see a chainring exactly like what I have. I feel that I've officially hijacked this thread :o

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle808

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle871


----------



## dave the wave

that 1915 excelsior,is not even correct.they didn't have stainless fenders on bikes back then,and they didn't have bolt on cross brace handle bars either.


----------



## jpromo

dave the wave said:


> that 1915 excelsior,is not even correct.they didn't have stainless fenders on bikes back then,and they didn't have bolt on cross brace handle bars either.




Yeah, I was figuring it to be later as well.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Who Put The Bomp In The Bomp-Shoo-Bomp-Shoo-Bomp ?? Who Put The _ _ _ In The ..... ??*

WHO'S HI-JACKIN' WHO ?? .... jpromo .. yours is a Schwinn ... Good Points You Pointed-Out There .. Balloontyre  and  dave the wave ... !!! 
PARDONE IF i yam leafin' anyone out ...

................  patric






I yam gonna add some pics to a previous entry in this thread, tailhole ... but it's gonna hafta wait 'til tomorrow ...........  
DARKNESS FALLS IN THE PLACE WHERE I LIVE ... AM ABOUTS TO HOP ON MY SCOOT and JOIN IN ... I OWN THE NIGHT.

Well, not really ... if you think about it.


----------



## tailhole

*welded truss rods*

I've had a bunch of Schwinn forks with the 'grabbers' (that's what my girlfriend calls the truss rod arms), but never seen one with them welded to the bottom of the fork.  Davis did this on some of their forks, correct?  Did Schwinn or do you think this was an owner mod? Or some other bicycle mystery??


----------



## jpromo

Thanks for all the awesome information Hoof! The rest of the parts the bike came with jive much more with Schwinn so that's nice.


----------



## hoofhearted

*OUT ON MY SCOOT right now ....*

BUT ABLE TO USE THE TELEPATHY APP ON MY DELL 17" LAPPER ... tailhole ... i will add to those Shelby-Built Dayton pics 
tomorrow ... i am using the telepathy app and i don't know how to attach fotos in that mode ... pullin' in to a Shell Station 
... gonna grab a cuppa joe and spark a decent forty-five cent cigar, now.

Will type to ya tomorrow ...................


----------



## hoofhearted

*FOTOS ADDED THRU EDIT .... (item 11 of this thread)*

FOTOS HAVE BEEN ADDED TO ITEM #11 of this thread as promised 6/25/13.


----------



## jpromo

I should have noticed all along that the Davis frames have a lug at the seat binder as well, whereas the Schwinn does not. Otherwise.. pretty darn close! Glad to finally be confident in an ID.


----------



## hoofhearted

*To Lug Or Not To Lug ..... That Is The Question.*

WHOA .. jpromo ... the Davis Dayton frame always has lugs comin' out the feng-shway .. but not always in the same places.

The Davis NON-DAYTON frames .. H-D .. and SOME of the YALE frames did NOT have lugs .. however .. within certain models ... 
the Sear's CHIEF or the Sear's NAPOLEAN .. there is more often than not, a lug at the seat-post binder.  

Tho' difficult to ever see one ... the Davis Racer ... Track Racer or Road Racer .. has lugs everywhere you can imagine ... as did 
the 26" wheel AND the 20" wheel Juvenile Bicycles of Davis .. Dayton .. H-D .. Yale .. Sear's Tiger.  

In Addition the 26" .. 20" .. AND All Davis Racers (1.125" racing tire) feature 7/8" tubing (outer diameter) ... BUT WAIT ... 
a few of the 20" bicycles are built using 3/4" tubing ... just a little smaller O.D. than 7/8" tubing.


THERE IS A THREAD on The Cabe ... Show Your Davis Built Bicycles ... started by dave the wave .. you may learn some good 
stuff .. with pics and all ... it is worth a read !!!

.............  patric cafaro


HOLY CRAP ... can't believe I actually got all this stuff typed without shooting myself in the face .. just to relieve the pain of tryin'
ta keep the info straight ... WOW !!!

GOIN' OUTSIDE ... a decent forty-five cent cigar is crying to be sparked ..............


----------



## hoofhearted

*TAILHOLE ... contact me off the line ... FOUND A GREAT ITEM FOR YOU !!!*

Tailhole ... cleanin' the basement for the past two weeks ... good news for you --- FOUND A Pre-Balloon SHELBY, 
under the fork-crown, bolt-on, TRUSS ROD PLATE FOR YOUR SHELBY-BUILT DAYTON.  The artifact is not a beater 
but has patina that soap will not remove. I had a great-uncle with this issue.  He passed away in 1956.

CONTACT ME off the line soon .. need your mailing address .. and I can get this in the mail on Tuesday.  Already 
have the box.

HAVE YOUR WALLET PREPARED ... this is gonna cost you one LARGE cuppa coffee next time you go to a swap meet 
at Memory Lane Classics .. Grande Rapids, Ohio.   Spring or Fall .. chooze yer season !!!

.............  patric cafaro


----------



## tailhole

*two large cups of coffee!*

Thanks Patric, sent you a pm to your personal email.
Awesome!!


----------



## Lynn King Wilson

*Ha*



bricycle said:


> what bike.....I can't get over how tidy your workspace is!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Mine looks like a garbage dump exploded.
> Kool chainwheel!




That is a pretty awesome workspace!


----------



## tailhole

*Thank You HOOF!!!*



hoofhearted said:


> Tailhole ... cleanin' the basement for the past two weeks ... good news for you --- FOUND A Pre-Balloon SHELBY,
> under the fork-crown, bolt-on, TRUSS ROD PLATE FOR YOUR SHELBY-BUILT DAYTON.  The artifact is not a beater
> but has patina that soap will not remove. I had a great-uncle with this issue.  He passed away in 1956.
> 
> CONTACT ME off the line soon .. need your mailing address .. and I can get this in the mail on Tuesday.  Already
> have the box.
> 
> HAVE YOUR WALLET PREPARED ... this is gonna cost you one LARGE cuppa coffee next time you go to a swap meet
> at Memory Lane Classics .. Grande Rapids, Ohio.   Spring or Fall .. chooze yer season !!!
> 
> .............  patric cafaro




Wanted to give a big thank you shout out to Patric 'HOOF' Cafaro.  He quickly followed through with his promise of a free part the help complete my Dayton.  Love the CABE, the CABERS & old bicycles!  I want to pay it forward too, so I'll help a fellow CABER out down the road.  Thanks all & enjoy your Sunday!!
-Scott


----------



## vuniw

I too need help "datin' my Dayton". Serial number is 58276 if anybody can help. Thanks!


----------



## bentwoody66

We'll see soon[emoji2]


----------



## hoofhearted

hoofhearted said:


> tailhole  ... Davis shut the factory doors in Spring of 1923.  The Shelby Bicycle Co. purchased the remains.
> It is known that Shelby produced that Dayton .. using a Yale fork .. which could be had with an underbolted
> truss-rod support plate and individual truss-rods.
> 
> The Dayton was available ONLY in carmine/black accents ... AND ... black/carmine accents ... when produced
> by Davis.  The Yale was available only in cerulean blue/white accents .. when produced by Davis.
> 
> However, when Shelby was producing entire bicycles from parts purchased from Davis .. Shelby was free to
> paint the bicycles whatever color scheme Shelby desired.  In mid-1923 .. you could be the owner of a Shelby-
> built Dayton ... having a Dayton badge and chainring ... painted cerulean blue .. having a Davis-built Yale fork ..
> and sporting ABSOLUTELY NO SERIAL NUMBER.  Your Blue Dayton could even have fenders with a half-inch
> dropside ... something Davis never utilized .. but, Shelby sure did.   When Davis shut the door in 1923 ...
> the Yale badge went to D.P. Harris ... But Shelby had the Yale components AND the cerulean blue paint.
> 
> Google cerulean blue ... a very-interesting color.
> 
> You are very-fortunate to have a Dayton that could be painted that color blue.  I really do believe your ride
> is Shelby built ... from Davis components.
> 
> ...................  patric cafaro



*

Merry Christmas to All CABErs !!

Who doesn't like a good riddle on Christmas Eve ??

Look ... at the time I was analyzing the fotos in this thread ...
I was usin' my Paint.net app to help me.

The blue in the fotos pretty-well matched a color called
Cerulean Blue ... so that's what I called it in this thread (and 
a few others) in the CABE.

But after peepin' some Davis, NATIONAL bicycles, from other
picture sources, I began to wonder if I had indicated the correct blue.  (?)*

*So here is the Christmas Eve of December 24, 2016 RIDDLE ...

Does Cerulean Blue best represent the Blue used by Davis 
on their machines or does Ultramarine Blue (the synthetic 
discovered in 19th century) best represent the Blue used 
by Davis ... on their machines. 

Maybe you see a totally-different Blue ......

Hey ... don't look at me for an answer .... I'm the one who is cornfuzed.

PRIZES ??

We don't need no stinkin' prizes ..... but I would love to hear your take on things.


No time limit on this quiz ..........


Thank You and A Merry Christmas to All !!

......* patric

*BTW ... whatever your answer is .. you won't 
get an argument outta me !!*


----------



## Goldenindian

Interesting question. A Merry Christmas to you Patric! I have been pushing his same question around in my head. Cabe member Scrubbinrims has this Toledo Kirk Manufacture 1906 Yale. Do you think this is the blue Davis used/got from Kirk? Pretty high key blue for 1906. I am a painter to I get a little crazy about different colors. Patric, I am with you, i say more cerulean than ultramarine. If anything the badge paint appears to edge closer to ultramarine. I am looking for that National ad... I think it said Davis blue....which seemed like a navy....but it was blue on blue..so i am still looking. In the catalogs Chitown posted (Yale 1921) i assume the color blue used in the catalog is the same that the bicycle used. Let me know


----------



## Goldenindian




----------



## hoofhearted

*Happy New Year .....

Goldenindian ... check out the color on this Michigan-Built Hudson
belonging to redline1968.

This is how I understand the blue on a Davis-Yale ... the ones I have
seen up-close and personal.

Eventually I will find a source for examples of Cerulean Blue ... and
Ultramarine Blue.

........ patric



 *


----------



## Goldenindian

Ok, thanks Patric! 
 That machine looks ultramarine to me. If that is what you have seen in person, on Yale Davis, I say ultra. Can't really say I have seen a good example in person. I am a oil painter(which doesn't mean a lot when it comes to painting bikes... enameling...baking enamel paints....primer colors......age/time. But ultramarine is a transparent color. Cerulean is far more opaque color. When transparent colors are layered the color gets dark and darker. Like I said, I have pretty much never repainted a bike/car/metal, but I like talking what shade or tint a certain color is. Would love to see more if you have more photos Patric. I am starting to see all the ads as ultramarine as well....


----------



## Goldenindian

I was writing the above post and found myself staring at this..


The dark blue to me is ultramarine
Lighter blue with "the cabe" in it looks cerulean...to me.


----------



## Kato

I work at a pigment manufacturing company and have dealt with pigments / been a color matcher for 30+ years.
GoldenIndian is pretty much on the money with the above. Pigments can differ in shade based on how they are used / applied - as a paint, inks, plastics etc but obviously we are talking about the color the bikes were painted. 
I did the good old GOOGLE thing and here are a couple pics of what I'd say are pretty good examples of the 2 colors. 
Attached a couple pics of my Yale - not sure what color it was / is - looks burnt orange but also areas of blue can be seen.......?


----------



## hoofhearted

*
Kato and Goldenindian ...

Thank you, to you providers of thought that causes
me to put my thinking-cap on.

Kato ... I think that ''burnt-orange'' seen on your Yale
is the primer Davis used.  Have seen this primer range
in variety of from that burnt-orange thru a very,
red, red-brown.

Am posting re-posts of a NOS Davis-Built s fork that
Dave Stromberger had posted as a for-sale item, not so
very long ago.

Can't remember if Dave indicated the fork was a Yale,
or not.

We are still looking at color here .......

......... patric





 




 




 




 *


----------



## Goldenindian

Hey hey,
Yes yes I saved those pictures as well Patric....Looking at all presented, I have been swayed to say the color really is closer to a ultramarine...very pure and opaque....I love that we are getting to the  bottom of this....that fork brings up a whole other thing. The Yale was painted two different ways?? The 1921 catalog says the Yale had "panels" of white on the top bar and fenders. Like the black panels on the Harley. That fork has GOLD pins on it.....but I would have thought WHITE box pins....the early yale has NO panels.....when the fender went to a dropside it got those white panels. I also think that is when you see the YALE chainring comes in. I think the early double box pin was gold. What do you guys think? Post pics in a bit.


----------



## Goldenindian

Both non dropside fenders(early) NO panels. Double gold pin on fork


 


The blue machine IS a Yale. I don't have a good dropside painted picture...but it should a white panels on the middle of the fenders . Later the Yale should be painted like the Harley but blue and white. I wonder when this change happen??(I hope this is making sense to someone other than me.)


----------



## mikecuda

Excellent run down.  I'm after a Davis authentic Frame and fork.


----------



## Gnarlymarley

I may have one. Fork is rough. I’ll get you some photos soon


----------

