# Identify prewar frame



## J-wagon (Aug 20, 2021)

Hi all, after researching I am unable to id this frame [appears to be for 26" wheels]. I believe it is prewar late 1930s? Some observations are no badge (don't see any rivet holes) and only marking is "11" stamped on BB. The double bars are curved and the down tube is straight. Not sure if accomodated a tank. The second bar / down tube junction welded directly to the headtube [different than other frames where second bar not welded to headtube]. It does not have integrated metal tabs on on the rear dropouts that I've seen on Colsons for the drop stand. The paint seems original. Not sure about the white diamond and lines pattern, because the paint lines are sloppy like it was handpainted [maybe normal for this time period?]. It came with a Murray 26t skiptooth chainring but I think from another bike [because ring has red paint splatter but frame has no red splatter]. 
Any thoughts? Thanks.


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## bikewhorder (Aug 20, 2021)

Rollfast.


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## Archie Sturmer (Aug 20, 2021)

Looks like a *1936*-E Montgomery Wards Hawthorne from the serial number stamping (E….4) [not an “X” after closer examination], sprayed over with non-original gray primer and blue metallic flakes paint; and where one has kiboshed the OEM *collet*-style seat post clamp.
Side (horizontal) badge holes also look to have been filled and painted over.
The linear paint chipping make it look like the *sport* *motorbike* once sported a tank.


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## Balloonoob (Aug 20, 2021)

I agree. X = 36. I'm sure you can figure out something for the seatpost clamp. I think that crank/chainring is Murray built but hey it's skiptooth. These can be built to look pretty mean without fenders/racks /lights /tanks/chainguard. This thread has a few of them  https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/post-pics-of-your-fastback-zep-hawthorne-or-rollfast.53969/


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## rustjunkie (Aug 20, 2021)

it's a snyder


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## J-wagon (Aug 20, 2021)

Thanks for the replies so far. At least it seems to be late 1930s. Google images show 1930s Rollfast, Snyder, Hawthorne frames looks very similar to mine. But seems they have kickstand "ears" on the rear dropout and this frame does not. Does that matter?


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## J-wagon (Aug 20, 2021)

Should I remove some of BB paint to better see serial number stamp?


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## saladshooter (Aug 20, 2021)

It's a 1936. One year only seat post collet. Your drop stand ears were part of the fender braces.


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## J-wagon (Aug 20, 2021)

Wow. That looks like it. So my frame appears to be 1936 Snyder built for DP Harris Rollfast (or maybe Montgomery Wards Hawthorne).


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## skiptooth (Aug 20, 2021)

j thats what i call as of a fast responce!! your frame would be out fitted the same ! way to go cabers


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## J-wagon (Aug 20, 2021)

Archie stumer is right. On closer look, I found horizontal badge holes. Perhaps seek out a rollfast headbadge


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## Balloonoob (Aug 20, 2021)

There are lots of badges that it may have sported.
This cadet badge recently sold.....I just love these:




This one may be long gone but worth asking: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/cadet-head-badge-1930s.161640/

Perhaps Princeton/Peerless badges like this one:



I like the P.C.-questionable Savage badge - Also a Winchester badge on this thread:  https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/more-headbadges.174447/



The rollfast BB Badges are cool and pop up for sale quite often. But Rollfast bikes had unique darts/paintschemes.
Hawthorne badges are pretty common too but sometimes a real cool one will pop up in Red or blue colors.
If you are unsure if a given badge will fit measure your badge hole spacing and confirm with a seller what the measurement is of the badge holes from center of hole to center of hole.

Good luck and have fun!!!

 - Nate


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## J-wagon (Aug 21, 2021)

Salad or others, do you happen to know the fork axle to crown measurement for the 1936 Rollfast or equivalent? I have spare 26" forks to try on the frame but some make front end bike sit low/high. The forks I have range from AC of 14.5 to 15.5"


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## Archie Sturmer (Aug 21, 2021)

I just measured a couple of what I believe are Snyder forks, and the dimension from axle to the bottom of the bearing cone was 15+1/4” and the inside (front) dimension (for tire and fender fit) was 14+1/8”.
A post war fork with the narrower tubes at the bottom and a removable top crown plate (fascia?) was about the same.


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## J-wagon (Aug 21, 2021)

Good to know Snyder fork a2c is in the 15" range. If I want to maintain similar prewar ride characteristics, Google says a2c within 1" of original fork is ok. I have spare mtb threaded rigid forks with a2c 16.5" and longer. I'll not use those for this frame.


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## Big Moe (Aug 22, 2021)

You're going to need to very carefully squeeze the rear dropouts back together. They are spread out by a fair amount.


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## Archie Sturmer (Aug 22, 2021)

J-wagon said:


> Should I remove some of BB paint to better see serial number stamp?



If you decide to go with the sand blast route, then the paint and primer on the bottom bracket crank hanger should come off with all the rest. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1936-hawthorne-sport-model-looking-for-info.80944/


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## J-wagon (Aug 22, 2021)

Curious to better see serial number, was thinking sandpaper or wire brush small area BB if paint non original. Or just leave it be?


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## J-wagon (Aug 25, 2021)

Archie Sturmer said:


> Looks like a *1936*-E Montgomery Wards Hawthorne from the serial number stamping (E….4) [not an “X” after closer examination], sprayed over with non-original gray primer and blue metallic flakes paint; and where one has kiboshed the OEM *collet*-style seat post clamp.
> Side (horizontal) badge holes also look to have been filled and painted over.
> The linear paint chipping make it look like the *sport* *motorbike* once sported a tank.



I removed some paint layers to see serial number 121134. Does this shed new light on frame? Current working identification is a 1936 Snyder/Rollfast


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## J-wagon (Sep 14, 2021)

Hi all, I finally completed the build of 1936 Rollfast frame. Any part I didn't have I mostly obtained from local yard finds. Managed to keep budget within the 200 range. Tried to keep it prewar when possible but ended up with: 18t Schwinn skiptooth chainring, skiptooth chain and dogbone cranks (prewar), Musselman rear hub (1948), chain tensions (pre/post war Elgin), "flat" wide handlebar/fork/10t skiptooth rear cog (from unidentified prewar ladies bike), truss rods (1952 Schwinn DX), chainguard (1953 Schwinn lightweight), front wheel (femco). This is my first build and I'm happy with it. Low gear ratio and wide bars make for easier pedaling and pedaling up my hilly area. Eventually I'd like to replace front wheel with prewar.


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## J-wagon (Jan 5, 2022)

Hi all, I just noticed my BB is offset. Consensus pegged frame as 1936 Snyder. But I've read 1936 CWC double bar had offset BB. Did Snyder have offset BB too?


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## Archie Sturmer (Jan 6, 2022)

+/-0.25” might have been within tolerance?


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## J-wagon (Jan 6, 2022)

Thx. Sounds like this offset due to assembly worker and not a Snyder design feature.


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## mrg (Jan 6, 2022)

never noticed that on a Snyder!


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## J-wagon (Jun 2, 2022)

Hi all, I found pics of other 1930s Snyder fastbacks with offset BB, although the offset less severe. Example posts #3, 6, 12, 14, 24.
Thread '1935? Rollfast?' https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1935-rollfast.166280/


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