# Pre-War Hercules?



## Oilit

I know Hercules bikes are hard to date to a specific year, but I believe this one is pre-war, just because the only other "Hercules Sports Model" I could find on here is definitely pre-war: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/hercules-sports-model.96604/
Unfortunately, this one doesn't have the original wheels, they've been replaced at some point with 26 x 1.375 rims with U.S. Royal Touring tires marked "Fits American Hooked Edge Rims". Sheldon Brown says these were used on "Very Old U.S. Lightweights". The wheels in the pictures are the as-found front wheel with a Schwinn tire and a Schwinn rear just to get it rolling.
There's no marks to indicate this bike was ever a three speed, and looking at the Veteran-Cycle Club on-line library, there doesn't seem to be a specific "Hercules Sports Model" but rather a group, which makes me think these all used the same frame with different fittings according to the specific model, but I could be wrong. The head badge looks like some kind of translucent plastic sheet backed by metal foil as a reflector and a brass ring as a frame, does anyone know the years Hercules used this type of badge? And what would be appropriate wheels if I ever find any? (I have some modern aluminum ones that will get it rideable). And what is the tab on the left rear seat stay for? And have you ever seen a rear fender modified like this? It's neat enough that it could be factory, but I can't see any reason the factory would do this. 
The man I bought this from got it from his boss for helping clean out his parents house. The bosses' dad was in England during WWII, so this could have been bought there and brought back. I'll be glad to hear any insights you have. Thanks.


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## bikerbluz

What a cool bike. Looks pretty unmolested to me. Great saddle and love the pedals. Wish I could give you some info but all I have is props. Congrats on a fine, early lightweight.


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## bulldog1935

https://herculesmuseum.wordpress.com/
here's a 1939 head badge




I'm back - I believe you have a prewar Popular
here's a 1930 with the same head badge missing the headbadge transfer decal (lacquer?), which yours retains


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## dnc1

I think you're right @bulldog1935, looks like a 'Popular' model.
They were indeed popular and in production for a long period. Usually the centre piece of the badge is missing on most examples I've seen.
If you do have a frame serial number @Oilit  I'd be interested to know it. My next door neighbour also has one of these, it would be neat to compare numbers, his is believed to be circa 1930/31.
Thanks,
Darren.
P.S. Owners rate these better than contemporary 'Raleighs'!
Nothing like a little controversy!


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## bulldog1935

good job Darren, I've been wondering if this page was on


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## Oilit

bikerbluz said:


> What a cool bike. Looks pretty unmolested to me. Great saddle and love the pedals. Wish I could give you some info but all I have is props. Congrats on a fine, early lightweight.



Thank you sir!


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## Oilit

dnc1 said:


> I think you're right @bulldog1935, looks like a 'Popular' model.
> They were indeed popular and in production for a long period. Usually the centre piece of the badge is missing on most examples I've seen.
> If you do have a frame serial number @Oilit  I'd be interested to know it. My next door neighbour also has one of these, it would be neat to compare numbers, his is believed to be circa 1930/31.
> Thanks,
> Darren.
> P.S. Owners rate these better than contemporary 'Raleighs'!
> Nothing like a little controversy!



I take it the "Popular" was the Hercules equivalent to the Raleigh Sports? I'll post the serial number tomorrow.


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## bulldog1935

something that's noteworthy about your rear fender.
It's worth a search, but sometime in the 30s, required white rear fender tip became a law in England (Darren can probably date this).
The white fender tip on your bike is an addition, suggesting your bike was made before that requirement.

Here, found it https://thefrugalcyclist.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/white-tail-english-mudguards-aka-fenders/
Required by law after October 1934 - your bike was made before that, and the white fender tip added later to meet the law - otherwise they couldn't ride it at night.

Popular was used to designate entry-level finish grade in English marketing.  You guys know I collect between-the-wars Brit fly reels.
Many models were named Popular.  We wouldn't call anything "cheaper grade throughout" today, but frugality then was a virtue.


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## Oilit

bulldog1935 said:


> something that's noteworthy about your rear fender.
> It's worth a search, but sometime in the 30s, required white rear fender tip became a law in England (Darren can probably date this).
> The white fender tip on your bike is an addition, suggesting your bike was made before that requirement.



Interesting! I thought someone had cut off the end of the fender, slid it up and bolted it back down, but I couldn't figure out why. Your idea makes sense, and it hadn't crossed my mind. I wonder why they didn't just paint the fender? Thanks!


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## bulldog1935

there was probably a rush to legalize every bike on the road and the bolt-on safety fender tip found a market.

I'm sure all new bikes after Oct 34 had painted white tips


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## Oilit

The information I found matches yours. According to a post on this forum: https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=92888
the white fender tip was required by the 1934 Road Traffic Act, apparently in response to an increase in accidents. But the article you found has more depth! Now I wonder if it was a Hercules accessory, since it has the Hercules decal?


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## SirMike1983

Not necessarily so. I had a 1946 Hercules with exactly that kind of "add on" white piece. Hubs dated to October 1946, but they were still using the add-on piece at that point still.

I think the decals point to a pre-WWII bike made in the mid- to late-1930s, based on the large, gold block lettering used and the red Hercules triangle. My 1946 had a silver triangle on the black portion of the rear fender and different decals. It's similar to the bikes shown in the 1937 catalog, and appears to be the Sports Model F.

The bracket on the seat stay is for a bolt-on reflector (can also be used for a tail light if you have a generator). This is helpful because many of these have a two-screw plain plate on the rear fender rather than a rear fender reflector.

This model of bicycle was made for quite a long time without significant modification.

Hercules was a big importer of English bikes into the U.S. prior to WWII, more so than Raleigh. Raleigh was much bigger after the Second War.

Sheldon's description of 26 x 1.375 wheels is generally right, but a little vague. That style of wheel dates to the 1930s-50s era, with most examples coming from the 1940s. At 599mm, they're very close in size to the Schwinn 597mm (S5/S6) bead size. It's likely that in some places in the U.S., 26 x 1.375 wheel parts and tires were easier to find than English 590mm in those days. Today, it's just the opposite.

Original wheels would have been Endrick pattern 26 x 1 3/8 English type wheels.  If you see signs of clamp use on the frame and the bars, it may have been a three speed originally, but certainly not all were 3-speeds (it was an extra pound on the Model F if you wanted a three speed instead of a single speed).

It's a good find of a pretty old bike. The condition is pretty good.


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## dnc1

The white add-on mudguard piece was an optional extra, available for many years.
I don't believe any manufacturers ever produced factory models with painted white sections @bulldog1935; you never see this in catalogues anyway. It was marketed as an official accessory by Hercules, a friend has a NOS unused example.

I'm now leaning towards @SirMike1983's above suggestion (and @Oilit's original proposition) that this is a Sport's model.
The head tube length is right, as is the chain wheel (the Popular had the chain wheel with Hercules lettering).
The handlebars for caliper brakes are right.

However, there are a few things incorrect re. the dating:
 '30's sports/lightweights had gold painted head tubes. 
The front mudguard is not spear pointed shape at the front end, this is a roadster 'guard. 
The chromed fork crown cover is late '40's/50's.
Pump pegs are brazed on, '30's are removeable.
Those frame lugs are not '30's.

Whatever it is, its a nice condition rider!

I have to go lie down now, all of these Herc. catalogues have given me a headache!
I'll send photos around, see if anyone can help.


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## Oilit

dnc1 said:


> The white add-on mudguard piece was an optional extra, available for many years.
> I don't believe any manufacturers ever produced factory models with painted white sections @bulldog1935; you never see this in catalogues anyway. It was marketed as an official accessory by Hercules, a friend has a NOS unused example.
> 
> I'm now leaning towards @SirMike1983's above suggestion (and @Oilit's original proposition) that this is a Sport's model.
> The head tube length is right, as is the chain wheel (the Popular had the chain wheel with Hercules lettering).
> The handlebars for caliper brakes are right.
> 
> However, there are a few things incorrect re. the dating:
> '30's sports/lightweights had gold painted head tubes.
> The front mudguard is not spear pointed shape at the front end, this is a roadster 'guard.
> The chromed fork crown cover is late '40's/50's.
> Pump pegs are brazed on, '30's are removeable.
> Those frame lugs are not '30's.
> 
> Whatever it is, its a nice condition rider!
> 
> I have to go lie down now, all of these Herc. catalogues have given me a headache!
> I'll send photos around, see if anyone can help.



I know what you mean, I was looking through the late '30's catalogs on the V-C C on-line library. There were a lot of Hercules models, and sorting them out takes some studying! For what it's worth, the serial number is KY 2618.


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## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> Not necessarily so. I had a 1946 Hercules with exactly that kind of "add on" white piece. Hubs dated to October 1946, but they were still using the add-on piece at that point still.
> 
> I think the decals point to a pre-WWII bike made in the mid- to late-1930s, based on the large, gold block lettering used and the red Hercules triangle. My 1946 had a silver triangle on the black portion of the rear fender and different decals. It's similar to the bikes shown in the 1937 catalog, and appears to be the Sports Model F.
> 
> The bracket on the seat stay is for a bolt-on reflector (can also be used for a tail light if you have a generator). This is helpful because many of these have a two-screw plain plate on the rear fender rather than a rear fender reflector.
> 
> This model of bicycle was made for quite a long time without significant modification.
> 
> Hercules was a big importer of English bikes into the U.S. prior to WWII, more so than Raleigh. Raleigh was much bigger after the Second War.
> 
> Sheldon's description of 26 x 1.375 wheels is generally right, but a little vague. That style of wheel dates to the 1930s-50s era, with most examples coming from the 1940s. At 599mm, they're very close in size to the Schwinn 597mm (S5/S6) bead size. It's likely that in some places in the U.S., 26 x 1.375 wheel parts and tires were easier to find than English 590mm in those days. Today, it's just the opposite.
> 
> Original wheels would have been Endrick pattern 26 x 1 3/8 English type wheels.  If you see signs of clamp use on the frame and the bars, it may have been a three speed originally, but certainly not all were 3-speeds (it was an extra pound on the Model F if you wanted a three speed instead of a single speed).
> 
> It's a good find of a pretty old bike. The condition is pretty good.
> 
> View attachment 948007



Thank you, @SirMike1983 ! Thorough and informative, as usual. The fact that Hercules was big over here before WWII is news to me. Was this in the '20's? I've always assumed the depression limited trade and imports during the '30's, but it seems there were always a few who still had money somehow. Nice bike, by the way!


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## SirMike1983

Oilit said:


> Thank you, @SirMike1983 ! Thorough and informative, as usual. The fact that Hercules was big over here before WWII is news to me. Was this in the '20's? I've always assumed the depression limited trade and imports during the '30's, but it seems there were always a few who still had money somehow. Nice bike, by the way!




Hercules was a major player in manufacturing and shipping British bicycles abroad prior to WWII, including bicycles exported to the U.S. Although the adult cycling market was very small compared to the youth market, there was still somewhat of a market for utility bicycles for purposes of commuting short distances or for moving goods/deliveries. I once owned 1935 Hercules that was used as a courier bike for some years, and had been outfitted with a heavy-duty basket on the front. Hercules was more aggressive about U.S. marketing prior to WWII than Raleigh was, though you'd never know it based on all the 1960s-70s Raleighs in the U.S. today.

Before WWII, Raleigh's exports to the U.S. were comparatively small. Raleigh did not believe there to be much of a U.S. market for its bikes. Raleigh's imports prior to WWII actually began as a one-man operation in Boston on the part of a man named Hamilton Osgood. This operation actually began in Osgood's house where he would buy the Raleigh bikes and assemble them in his home, then sell the bikes in Boston.

The bike I'm thinking that you have is the men's version of this bike from the 1937 catalog. This bike appears to be the correct frame type (albeit this is the women's version), with the black headtube, white add-on piece, reflector boss on the seat stay, chrome fork crown, etc.


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## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> Hercules was a major player in manufacturing and shipping British bicycles abroad prior to WWII, including bicycles exported to the U.S. Although the adult cycling market was very small compared to the youth market, there was still somewhat of a market for utility bicycles for purposes of commuting short distances or for moving goods/deliveries. I once owned 1935 Hercules that was used as a courier bike for some years, and had been outfitted with a heavy-duty basket on the front. Hercules was more aggressive about U.S. marketing prior to WWII than Raleigh was, though you'd never know it based on all the 1960s-70s Raleighs in the U.S. today.
> 
> Before WWII, Raleigh's exports to the U.S. were comparatively small. Raleigh did not believe there to be much of a U.S. market for its bikes. Raleigh's imports prior to WWII actually began as a one-man operation in Boston on the part of a man named Hamilton Osgood. This operation actually began in Osgood's house where he would buy the Raleigh bikes and assemble them in his home, then sell the bikes in Boston.
> 
> The bike I'm thinking that you have is the men's version of this bike from the 1937 catalog. This bike appears to be the correct frame type (albeit this is the women's version), with the black headtube, white add-on piece, reflector boss on the seat stay, chrome fork crown, etc.
> 
> View attachment 951269



@SirMike1983, Thank you again! After I thought about it, I remembered that in Pridmore and Heard's book on Schwinn, they mentioned that adult use of bicycles actually increased during the Depression, partly because of new innovations, but also because many people simply couldn't afford a car. And when I went back and looked, there's no indication that there was ever a reflector mounted on this bike's rear fender, so I've learned quite a bit!


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## 3-speeder

That bike is SA-weeet!


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## HPL

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. It has helped me with figuring out what my bike isn't, but not necessarily what it is. I'm stuck on the year of manufacture. Rod (roller) brakes, wide front fender, bolt-on seat stays, "H" logo chainring, Type B hub, 3 speed bar mounted shifter ("Her-cu-matic"). Anyone with info regarding this ride please chime in! Pedals, bar wrap, and possibly the pump are definitely not original. Anyone getting rid of some Hercules pedals and/or grips? Overall in very good condition except some missing front wheel spokes, still rides good though, but getting this issue repaired shortly. I have a Lucas "King of the Road" head lamp, tail  lamp, generator, and a brass "bulb" car horn for this rebuild; along with Brooks B.17s saddle (O.E. Hercules saddle may not handle everyday rides, keeping for show purposes unless it can be "refurbished" for riding, Brooks front and rear "toolbags"; and some aftermarket rear sidebags to mount on it.


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## SirMike1983

HPL said:


> Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. It has helped me with figuring out what my bike isn't, but not necessarily what it is. I'm stuck on the year of manufacture. Rod (roller) brakes, wide front fender, bolt-on seat stays, "H" logo chainring, Type B hub, 3 speed bar mounted shifter ("Her-cu-matic"). Anyone with info regarding this ride please chime in! Pedals, bar wrap, and possibly the pump are definitely not original. Anyone getting rid of some Hercules pedals and/or grips? Overall in very good condition except some missing front wheel spokes, still rides good though, but getting this issue repaired shortly. I have a Lucas "King of the Road" head lamp, tail  lamp, generator, and a brass "bulb" car horn for this rebuild; along with Brooks B.17s saddle (O.E. Hercules saddle may not handle everyday rides, keeping for show purposes unless it can be "refurbished" for riding, Brooks front and rear "toolbags"; and some aftermarket rear sidebags to mount on it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1083073
> 
> View attachment 1083067
> 
> View attachment 1083068
> 
> View attachment 1083069
> 
> View attachment 1083075




1953 or 54, based on the hub. The hub is 1953, so the bike would be right around then. Sometimes they're dated the previous year and the bike is completed the following year. It's a Birimingham Hercules (a true "Hercules", not a Raleigh-made Hercules). Bike looks to have been over-painted with orange paint, based on the overspray on the top of the headbadge and the lower head tube race. Braces look painted too. But then it's also not missing a whole lot, so it's a good project. Hercules had hubs and shifter branded their own. The innards are very similar to the Sturmey AW, but some of the parts are a bit heavier-duty (e.g., the clutch). It's possible Brampton made the hubs for Hercules.


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## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> 1953 or 54, based on the hub. The hub is 1953, so the bike would be right around then. Sometimes they're dated the previous year and the bike is completed the following year. It's a Birimingham Hercules (a true "Hercules", not a Raleigh-made Hercules). Bike looks to have been over-painted with orange paint, based on the overspray on the top of the headbadge and the lower head tube race. Braces look painted too. But then it's also not missing a whole lot, so it's a good project. Hercules had hubs and shifter branded their own. The innards are very similar to the Sturmey AW, but some of the parts are a bit heavier-duty (e.g., the clutch). It's possible Brampton made the hubs for Hercules.



The hub may not be original, the first year for the B series hubs was 1952, but I believe the last year for the round head badge was 1949, then they went to the shield style. But my knowledge of Hercules is limited, so there may be variations I don't know about. Maybe the rod-brake bikes carried the older style badge a year or two longer.


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## SirMike1983

It's possible. Though the shifter is 1950s style as well, and the hardware looks to be fully chrome rather than any black-out (many of the earlier bikes) or nickel (also earlier bikes). They used several types of chainrings over the years, but in terms of commonality, the "H" chainring most often turns up on the post-war bikes. 

There are a number of possibilities - replaced parts on an older bike, an older badge getting used up from existing stock on a newer bike, bike frame was assembled and sat but was assembled with newer parts at the factory, etc. 

I do think it's a post-war bike, based on all those parts, but it's hard to pin down if the hub isn't original. Any transfers have been lost to the overpaint unfortunately.

I guess it's worth checking the frame serial number - can't hurt. They often not helpful, but maybe you get lucky and it's close to another person's bike number of a known year.


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## Oilit

@dnc1 has a friend who was planning to try to put together a list of Hercules serial numbers, but I don't know if that ever got off the ground. You would think if you had enough known examples there would have to be some kind of pattern, or maybe there's some old papers lying in a drawer somewhere in Birmingham....


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## HPL

SirMike1983 said:


> 1953 or 54, based on the hub. The hub is 1953, so the bike would be right around then. Sometimes they're dated the previous year and the bike is completed the following year. It's a Birimingham Hercules (a true "Hercules", not a Raleigh-made Hercules). Bike looks to have been over-painted with orange paint, based on the overspray on the top of the headbadge and the lower head tube race. Braces look painted too. But then it's also not missing a whole lot, so it's a good project. Hercules had hubs and shifter branded their own. The innards are very similar to the Sturmey AW, but some of the parts are a bit heavier-duty (e.g., the clutch). It's possible Brampton made the hubs for Hercules.



Thanks SirMike,
I was thinking early '50s, but was confused by the headbadge which apparently was used for various years. I tried to date it from other examples showing different headbadges, but of course relying on the fact that the dates for those examples may not have been correct. I've seen the green "shield" style shown on as early as a '48 (based on the owners dating), but it would seem that some headbadge use may have been concurrent for the same year (?). I'm surprised that they were still using bolt-on stays in the '50s. I've assumed the paint to be a respray, but was done well excepting some of the masking. I guess I need to find some period decals to finish it off since I'm not changing the paint. Also, looking for a Dynohub front for my lighting gear.


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## HPL

Oilit said:


> @dnc1 has a friend who was planning to try to put together a list of Hercules serial numbers, but I don't know if that ever got off the ground. You would think if you had enough known examples there would have to be some kind of pattern, or maybe there's some old papers lying in a drawer somewhere in Birmingham....



I had seen a site with some Herc serials when I was researching my '30s-'40s Raleigh, but I don't remember where. I didn't have the bike at that time so I wasn't paying any attention to the non-Raleigh data. I'll sit down again and seen if I can find out where it was posted, I'm not too patient when it comes to online work; usually very frustrating for me. I haven't even looked to see where the number is located; shouldn't be a problem unless the paint is obscuring it.


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## SirMike1983

Was it here: https://oldbike.eu/frame-number-bicycle-dating-guide/ ?

The headbadges and chainrings can be tough for dating these because there seemed to be a fair amount of mixing back and forth, using up old stock, etc. You'll see a bike with an "H" chainring that's earlier than one with the "HERCULES" full lettering sometimes, for example. The HERCULES is the older pattern, but they were still using them well into the 1950s.

Given the re-paint was done with a fair amount of care another possibility is an earlier frame was overhauled at a shop with newer parts and sent back out.

People from those times would probably be surprised we're so interested in learning about and collecting bikes like this today. To them, these were utilitarian transportation items.

You have the most important aspect - that the bike basically has all (or enough parts) to be made whole. At this point, I would think you're looking for the last few bits. With these projects there are certain parts that are very, very difficult to find if the project is missing those things.


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## fat tire trader

I have 2 prewar Hercules bikes and a bunch of catalogs. When I have time later, I will read through this thread and comment. 






and click here to see  my BV Deluxe http://www.fattiretrading.com/42herc.html


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## dnc1

Oilit said:


> @dnc1 has a friend who was planning to try to put together a list of Hercules serial numbers, but I don't know if that ever got off the ground. You would think if you had enough known examples there would have to be some kind of pattern, or maybe there's some old papers lying in a drawer somewhere in Birmingham....





HPL said:


> Thanks SirMike,
> I was thinking early '50s, but was confused by the headbadge which apparently was used for various years. I tried to date it from other examples showing different headbadges, but of course relying on the fact that the dates for those examples may not have been correct. I've seen the green "shield" style shown on as early as a '48 (based on the owners dating), but it would seem that some headbadge use may have been concurrent for the same year (?). I'm surprised that they were still using bolt-on stays in the '50s. I've assumed the paint to be a respray, but was done well excepting some of the masking. I guess I need to find some period decals to finish it off since I'm not changing the paint. Also, looking for a Dynohub front for my lighting gear.



Sadly @Oilit , my friends plan for collating Herc' serial numbers is a project that may take decades!
And @HPL, bolt on seat stays were not uncommon at the time, my '54 Raleigh has them.


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## dnc1

This is another friends 1934 Sports model, currently fitted with a 'Williams' crank and 'Elan' chain ring set up.....


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## Oilit

dnc1 said:


> This is another friends 1934 Sports model, currently fitted with a 'Williams' crank and 'Elan' chain ring set up.....
> 
> View attachment 1085800
> 
> View attachment 1085801



From what I can see, the lugs aren't the usual Hercules type. Was this originally a Kestrel?


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## dnc1

I'll find out @Oilit.


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## HPL

SirMike1983 said:


> 1953 or 54, based on the hub. The hub is 1953, so the bike would be right around then. Sometimes they're dated the previous year and the bike is completed the following year. It's a Birimingham Hercules (a true "Hercules", not a Raleigh-made Hercules). Bike looks to have been over-painted with orange paint, based on the overspray on the top of the headbadge and the lower head tube race. Braces look painted too. But then it's also not missing a whole lot, so it's a good project. Hercules had hubs and shifter branded their own. The innards are very similar to the Sturmey AW, but some of the parts are a bit heavier-duty (e.g., the clutch). It's possible Brampton made the hubs for Hercules.
> [




After doing some more maintenance/repairs (brakes/front wheel rebuild) I noticed that there is a "4" on the rear hub, indicating 1954 as year of hub manufacture. Thus, I'm assuming that the frame was made in 1954/55. Presently having an issue with the front brakes; the whole shoe assy wants to twist on the stirrup. This nearly caused my newly rebuilt wheel to have the spokes torn out. This happened with both the original pads and new pads. The stirrup seems to be fine with maybe a VERY slight bend (straightened now) in one "arm", but I can't see how that would cause this problem. On the opposite side of the bike the brake pad rides properly even though I discovered stripped and mismatching hardware on the stirrup guide. Could it be that the problem is caused by the guide on the opposite side of the affected shoe allowing excessive "play" to the stirrup due to "shifting" of the guide on the fork? Everything else is "golden" as far as function of this bike (still missing a rear spoke, but wheel still running true) except the saddle. I just broke it at the nose on a ride a couple weeks ago; I had yet to put the Brooks or RBR hairpin on as replacements so my fault. It's repairable, but I'll just keep it as a "show" saddle not for riding; I did find new replacement saddles from India where they are apparently making the Hercules brand today. I did notice that the leather is significantly thinner than the Brooks so I'm not surprised with the failure due to age and wear. I've only ever had one other saddle break on me; a '70s Fuji "belt" saddle that was cut into a "swallow" design and had the "support layer" under the main leather cut-away (not my modification). If you ever cut a saddle into a "swallow" style DO NOT REMOVE THE SUPPORT PIECE; also don't cut away the sides so much that there is not enough material to provide "stiffness" to that area; even my older Brooks Swallow saddles with thicker leather get weak there if not laced/reinforced! I'm experimenting with a "fake Brooks B.17"; cut out the sides, but left significant "tabs" in the middle area to "fold" under for lacing. Looking for "new" guides for the front brakes, or tapping out the existing guide to take a larger bolt.

Hope everyone had and has a safe and enjoyable holiday season!


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## bulldog1935

HPL said:


> ...Presently having an issue with the front brakes; the whole shoe assy wants to twist on the stirrup. This nearly caused my newly rebuilt wheel to have the spokes torn out. This happened with both the original pads and new pads. The stirrup seems to be fine with maybe a VERY slight bend (straightened now) in one "arm", but I can't see how that would cause this problem. On the opposite side of the bike the brake pad rides properly even though I discovered stripped and mismatching hardware on the stirrup guide. Could it be that the problem is caused by the guide on the opposite side of the affected shoe allowing excessive "play" to the stirrup due to "shifting" of the guide on the fork? Everything else is "golden" as far as function of this bike (still missing a rear spoke, but wheel still running true) except the saddle. I just broke it at the nose on a ride a couple weeks ago; I had yet to put the Brooks or RBR hairpin on as replacements so my fault. It's repairable, but I'll just keep it as a "show" saddle not for riding; I did find new replacement saddles from India where they are apparently making the Hercules brand today. I did notice that the leather is significantly thinner than the Brooks so I'm not surprised with the failure due to age and wear. I've only ever had one other saddle break on me; a '70s Fuji "belt" saddle that was cut into a "swallow" design and had the "support layer" under the main leather cut-away (not my modification). If you ever cut a saddle into a "swallow" style DO NOT REMOVE THE SUPPORT PIECE; also don't cut away the sides so much that there is not enough material to provide "stiffness" to that area; even my older Brooks Swallow saddles with thicker leather get weak there if not laced/reinforced! I'm experimenting with a "fake Brooks B.17"; cut out the sides, but left significant "tabs" in the middle area to "fold" under for lacing. Looking for "new" guides for the front brakes, or tapping out the existing guide to take a larger bolt.
> 
> Hope everyone had and has a safe and enjoyable holiday season!



If there's room on the brake shoe bolt, try M6 (1/4") bellville washers on both sides of the brake arm, with the crown side on both washers facing away from the brake arm.
And of course tighten enough to get some spring compression.
Here, they're used for shims to get the spacing I need for proper arm alignment on newer cartridge brake pads, but they bite better than flat washers.
(CPs adjusted this way are as good as any canti on the road)
but the point, with the bellville washers, you can't rotate these pads if you try - at least not without loosening them first.


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## 3-speeder

So here is a picture of the brake shoes on my roller brakes from 1938. Minimal hardware really. An old style lock washer and a nut. I would probably have room for the belleville washers if needed and have used them on other set-ups thanks to Bulldog. That works well and might do the trick for you. The stirrup guides are threaded and just bolted to the curved brace. Wonder if those shifted on you?
Note: In the bottom photo the brace has already been loosened up and is not in the proper final position


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## SirMike1983

The mounts being uneven can lead to twisting of the brakes, depending on how far off they are - really depends on what's off and how much it's off. Rod brake rims should generally have a ridge in the center where the spokes mount to deflect the pads away from the spokes. 

If you're twisting into the spokes and overcoming that ridge, something sounds badly off, but it can be any number of things without actually being able to examine the bike. Do you have any pictures of the mounts you're using? Usually you want the same style of mount on each side of the fork so that you get a uniform travel and engagement with the brake stirrup.

Spacers are something you will use even with proper mounting hardware - I have spacers of every sort on my rod brakes because none of them were perfect out of the box.


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