# More crap repop junk being made



## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 26, 2016)

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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 26, 2016)

Or this being passed off as OG

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## Pantmaker (Dec 26, 2016)

Javier made a sweet badge for a custom project that I did about two years ago. He's also on this forum. Did he try to pass these off to you as OG? Just curious.

pants


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## keith kodish (Dec 26, 2016)

Sweet creepin'Jesus. What the hell kinda abortion is that thing supposed to be? Years ago,i had a men's original paint Schwinn locking double duty fork,that a brother of mine,Sarmis Luters has. Is this what that thing is supposed to be? Nice,clean welds,...

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## 37fleetwood (Dec 26, 2016)

I'm
anti crap repop junk
pro good repop junk


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## Nashman (Dec 27, 2016)

I like what appears to be a Canuck "Mountie" but agree with 37 fleetwood, there is some good repop,and some crap..


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## syclesavage (Dec 29, 2016)

I just got a NOS repop horn assembly circa 1970's I'm thinking Japan or Taiwan works just fine for my 54 Columbia it fit like a glove.


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## Nashman (Jan 11, 2017)

Again, I concur with Fleetwood, there is *The Good, the Bad, and the UGLY in the world of "repop".*


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## keith kodish (Jan 11, 2017)

Spare no expense, eh? Get what ya pay for. Get hit up,once in a while to sell,loan out a scarce to rare part,so "copies"can be made. Certain parts are rare for a reason,even with today's technology, a lot of the original parts can't /shouldn't be replicated.  Just my opinion. 

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## DonChristie (Jan 12, 2017)

All repop stuff is bad! To me, tires are the only thing that are good repopped. Value and rarity are lost when things get remade. The Above badge was a $300 item, now its $50!


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## bobcycles (Jan 12, 2017)

schwinndoggy said:


> All repop stuff is bad! To me, tires are the only thing that are good repopped. Value and rarity are lost when things get remade. The Above badge was a $300 item, now its $50!




----Hardware bits and certain smalls are a good thang.

My stance has always been this.  ANYTHING that adversely effects the value/ desirability of vintage /rare parts
should not be popped.  Repopping tires totally killed the original rubber value market no matter what anyone
says, it's fact, destroyed the desirability at least here in Southern Calif. 
I will never ride on Chinese rubber on a vintage balloon bike, I don't care who made it or how 'nice' it is.  I've been riding
balloon bikes since the 70s' and have had maybe 2 ? blowouts on old tires.  It's pretty easy to eyeball what's
rideable and what is not, the whole 'fear' of original rubber is unfounded.  
Someone just listed a girls prewar Schwinn for sale with some hideous modern white tires on it...they
completely destroyed the look of that bicycle.  Those tires do have a place, but not on something
nice and original and made in USA a long time ago.
Do a head badge search on Ebay, you will puke.  Most of it is repop now.
These are collectibles.
Rat rod, I get it, but that's a whole other 'spectrum'.....not the preservation of rolling US manufactured industrial age art.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 12, 2017)

it's all well and good if you collect Schwinns and everything is available. let's be fair, you can basically get whatever you need, it might be expensive, but it can be found. but for some of us, the parts are so rare Donald Trump couldn't get one with an Executive Order!
today, there are several dozen bikes that languished as unfinished projects because of impossible parts that are now completed and show stoppers because John has made perfect reproductions available.

imagine this bike without John's perfect reproduction chainguard, then tell me it's crap.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 12, 2017)

look at these things, these are not repop crap, they're artisan craftsmanship at it's finest!


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## bobcycles (Jan 12, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> it's all well and good if you collect Schwinns and everything is available. let's be fair, you can basically get whatever you need, it might be expensive, but it can be found. but for some of us, the parts are so rare Donald Trump couldn't get one with an Executive Order!
> today, there are several dozen bikes that languished as unfinished projects because of impossible parts that are now completed and show stoppers because John has made perfect reproductions available.
> 
> imagine this bike without John's perfect reproduction chainguard, then tell me it's crap.





-------Personally I just don't 'like' repop stuff unless it's that 'hardware-ie' wears-out-fast or gets broken stuff.

Your chain guard fits into a super weird 'grey area' for me where the part is extremely unobtanium that ...?  man
I don't even wanna say it or condone it , but yes I "get" that the search on some items may never bear fruit...
but it sure is fun doing the hunting and actually finding.
As for the guard on your bike...."crap" is a total of a stretch.  It's an extremely well made and crafted part, but the inherent
issue with ANY of this stuff is how the 'lines get blurred' and / or the story changes as more and more of this
stuff changes hands and time marches on.  You are here now, showing the world an amazingly accurate high
quality part on your bike, full disclosure.  Unfortunately in hobbies like this, that is not always the case.

 I am so effeeng sick of reading ebay listings or 'sale' listings....where there is the universal "shrug" by the seller of "I dunno!"
(whether the item they are selling is real or fake).  You own that beautiful Dayton bike right now. But as time rolls on
and it changes hands gets passed down, you have no control over how much integrity future owners will have
in the ways they regard the bike or represent it.

My reply initially was to the dude who stated that repop tires were a 'good thing'......I would ONLY tend to agree
if we had reached such a point where vintage US tire manufacturers rubber had become nearly impossible to find
for the 30s-50s stuff that is "balloon" bikes. Vintage tires took a big 'market' hit once Typhoons, chains etc. became available.   I get it when you're dealing with turn of the century stuff, or even
single tube which is indeed getting scarce.

 Personally I love seeing an original or restored bike where the owner has gone to such great
lengths to source the OEM rubber that the literature/catalogs displayed.


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## Nashman (Jan 12, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> look at these things, these are not repop crap, they're artisan craftsmanship at it's finest!



will they last?


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## Nashman (Jan 12, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> -------Personally I just don't 'like' repop stuff unless it's that 'hardware-ie' wears-out-fast or gets broken stuff.
> 
> Your chain guard fits into a super weird 'grey area' for me where the part is extremely unobtanium that ...?  man
> I don't even wanna say it or condone it , but yes I "get" that the search on some items may never bear fruit...
> ...



 Hi,  Have dealt with Bob ( lately...always 100%) and corresponded with Leon Dixon ( phone calls, purchases/exchnge of pics) back in the 80's and see a familiar note with Bob's comments. Leon was the MAN.....and still is. ( not sure where?)


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 13, 2017)

Nashman said:


> will they last?



maybe I should clarify a bit. John made the ends and pins, the shafts and blocks are NOS Torrington. yes, they'll last forever.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 13, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> -------Personally I just don't 'like' repop stuff unless it's that 'hardware-ie' wears-out-fast or gets broken stuff.
> 
> Your chain guard fits into a super weird 'grey area' for me where the part is extremely unobtanium that ...?  man
> I don't even wanna say it or condone it , but yes I "get" that the search on some items may never bear fruit...
> ...



I hear ya, but many of these bikes just wouldn't be here and complete without some of these parts. this is the only hobby where you're not allowed to replace missing or broken parts.
I have an uncle who restores antique cars worth $500,000.00+ and on all of them you have to make parts, there just aren't any around. no one complains, or trashes the cars, it's just the way it is. it seems it's only this hobby where people feel that a bike should be thrown out rather than make the parts it's missing.

then there's this:





I made it, it's not real, but it's so perfect I would challenge anyone to point out anything wrong. at some point you just have to let it go. some things you have to do what you have to do, so I did.
some day, 100 years from now, someone will ask if it's a real one or one of mine, and only history will tell which one will be more desirable.


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## momo608 (Jan 13, 2017)

I'm seriously into old cars and use a lot of reproduction parts. I can tell you first hand how awful a lot of it is. Sometimes you can rework it sometimes you can't. It's a real shocker when it's as good as original which many times were not that good in the first place. There's a natural inclination to think everything was perfect when new. I bought repro things and put them on shelves for years before I was able to use them only to find out it didn't fit, not the plan but that's how it worked out. Bought a repro replacement and it was great. This went the other way too, got something good went to get more of it and got crap. Throwing money away is no fun but when you really need something to finish your project almost anything is better than this.


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## momo608 (Jan 13, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> I made it, it's not real, but it's so perfect I would challenge anyone to point out anything wrong. at some point you just have to let it go. some things you have to do what you have to do, so I did.
> some day, 100 years from now, someone will ask if it's a real one or one of mine, and only history will tell which one will be more desirable.




It's already happening. Some reproductions have been around so long that they have just become part of the used parts scene, being bought and sold as original. Few know enough to spot the repros from original and they're damn happy to have it, ignorance is bliss with excellent reproductions.


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## PCHiggin (Jan 13, 2017)

momo608 said:


> It's already happening. Some reproductions have been around so long that they have just become part of the used parts scene, being bought and sold as original. Few know enough to spot the repros from original and they're damn happy to have it, ignorance is bliss with excellent reproductions.




Yep,I looked to an "all original"  bike a couple of summers ago. One  look showed the 90's repop parts.The seller didnt know what he had,a local schmuck lied and took him to the cleaners when he bought it,back in the 90's.Well,I  didnt want to ad insult to injury,I just passed on the deal. I dont think those parts in particular are terrible,they're ok.I just prefer the originals in decent used condition or the better grade of repops made not so long ago.


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## Nashman (Jan 13, 2017)

I think it breaks down to being educated on what is what and "caveat emptor" ( buyer beware), but things have been "faked" or re-popped for years, and it's never going to stop. To mislead a person is a lie, and I have never had any patience with deceit. To re-craft by hand is a whole different can of worms than mass produced. I've been doing the antique hobby for 35+ years and have seen some nasty stuff ( repro) and some dang good repro's, but it's how they are represented is what counts. I prefer to stay purist, but will buy repops as a choice on occasion. I will KNOW they are, and if re-sold will divulge as "repro" but after that, it's all about integrity.

Another factor is the almighty "buck$$". For many people the hobby is only affordable as a reproduction item or part to enjoy the experience. Should they be shut out? I don't think so...

I couldn't get my '54 Nash Met a space in a car show this Fall because of all the PT Cruisers? Another topic on it's own....

I think the original tire market has dried up ( pun intended) and getting good original rubber is no longer affordable. I think the rule is to match them up accordingly to your taste. It may look like crap to others, but so may that polka dot green shirt. We all can close our eyes.....

Well, I'm off to Walmart to buy a set of bed sheets with vintage motor scooters on it.."made in China" no doubt, but whatever.... no originals out there last time I checked.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 13, 2017)




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## DonChristie (Jan 13, 2017)

I agree with you Scott, in a sense. The repop tires I use are John's tires only! Would never put Kenda's on a classic! John makes incredible stuff! I have rode vintage tires since the 70's also, Bob. But after riding on new rubber, it's like nite and day! I classify tires, pedals, seat covering and bearings as things that will wear out. Therefore, swapping these things out is OK in my book. Oh ya, that repop badge looks real bad!


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## Barto (Jan 13, 2017)

Like so many on the Cabe, I'm a Hot rod and Vintage Motorcycle guy and there are plenty of people who just don't care......I have a 1958 FLH and have been going to swaps for years looking for parts.  You really have to be careful as many vendors will be all too happy sell you an old repop part and tell you it's OG.  I learned my lesson and brought a restoration guide with me to get the straight scoop


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## Nashman (Jan 13, 2017)

schwinndoggy said:


> I agree with you Scott, in a sense. The repop tires I use are John's tires only! Would never put Kenda's on a classic! John makes incredible stuff! I have rode vintage tires since the 70's also, Bob. But after riding on new rubber, it's like nite and day! I classify tires, pedals, seat covering and bearings as things that will wear out. Therefore, swapping these things out is OK in my book. Oh ya, that repop badge looks real bad!



 I'm new on the Cabe. What are John's tires?


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## DonChristie (Jan 13, 2017)

John is a member here and does some very good repop stuff! He had Chain tread repop tires made and they are perfect! Check the for sale section, he has WW and BW available.


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## Nashman (Jan 13, 2017)

schwinndoggy said:


> John is a member here and does some very good repop stuff! He had Chain tread repop tires made and they are perfect! Check the for sale section, he has WW and BW available.



thanks....


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## bobcycles (Jan 13, 2017)

schwinndoggy said:


> I agree with you Scott, in a sense. The repop tires I use are John's tires only! Would never put Kenda's on a classic! John makes incredible stuff! I have rode vintage tires since the 70's also, Bob. But after riding on new rubber, it's like nite and day! I classify tires, pedals, seat covering and bearings as things that will wear out. Therefore, swapping these things out is OK in my book. Oh ya, that repop badge looks real bad!





-----------------John is an anomaly in the reproduction field.  He actually 'cares' about quality and making things 'right' and to
very exacting levels.   My comment was not to bash the quality of Johns work but the inherent effect certain reproduction
items have on the market for and value of  'investment' quality antique/vintage parts, and that can also be said for tires.
 Tires were always regarded as a 'grail' ingedient in the bike hobby and to a degree, but lesser now, still are. From what I've heard Johns tires are incredible riding tires. I get that.  I ride on original tires from a purist standpoint, and don't do 'performance' riding or even serious commuting on vintage ballooners to justify needing that 'extra' performance edge, so I'm cool with rolling on original rubber for my
leisure 'cruising' which amounts to local beach strand cruises and local about town.  I do have to admit the repro tire 'generic-izes' (is that a word?)
the look of these old bikes (communism? socialism? LOL) when so much of what you see now is a bright and shiny WW chain tire or typhoon, or those terrible Coker BFG's that used to be everywhere and still "sting" unsuspecting buyers today.

-----Reproduced parts will always be with us, I try to avoid using as much of what's available as I can on my projects.  Ocassionally I'll do a 'buy-out' of a load of antique bike stuff and there will be repro stuff in the lot.  Do I throw it out?  I can't.....it serves a purpose and has value and was part of a bulk buy that I paid for, good, bad and ugly.  A couple of years ago I ended up with a qty of 'rough cast" Schwinn cross bar speedo housings... I so wanted to just pitch these things but the market was revealing a 2-300 value a piece!  If was independently wealthy? I would have scrapped them.  But I'm not quite "Trump" yet.

----There are degrees of 'lameness' for this repop stuff....  And top of my list for just bad BAD idea repop are badges.  I will always simply
reard these piles of sheet as Forgeries. Badges and Schwinn Fender bombs have screwed more unsuspecting people than
anything re-made in the bike hobby thus far.


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## SirMike1983 (Jan 16, 2017)

Ranting is not the answer. Reproduction, by itself, means only that the part is not from old stock and was more recently produced as a copy of a now out-of-production original. I think people see 'reproduction' and expect very cheaply made, inferior quality parts. Sometimes this is true and sometimes not. When you re-build a bicycle, take each part in the project as an individual and see if the quality is up to your standards. I have no difficulty using high-quality, reproduction parts where they meet my standards for a particular project.

With the rise of computer-aided manufacturing, easier access to home machine shop manufacturing, and even 3-D printing, it is possible to produce quality reproduction parts in a small shop or even at home. Bikesmith Design and Gentleman Cyclist are examples of high-quality, new-production parts. I have also noticed an increasing number of home builders making their own parts of a high quality in their own homes and garages.


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## sfhschwinn (Jan 18, 2017)

For me original original original. I think if repops are to be made there should be a stamp put on every item that says reproduction so it is easy to tell the difference but should be put in a place where it wouldn't be seen when looking directly at it- for instance stamped inside of the tank or behind the head badge. As for tires I don't ride on originals as I want to preserve them for future generations. Luckily for me I collect Schwinns so the stingrays tire repops are readily available.


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## PCHiggin (Jan 18, 2017)

Reproduction campaign buttons are marked as such around the rear edge. I guess it would work on bike parts.  I think most of us can spot repop parts without any stamp. It's buyer beware as with everything else


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## A.S.BOLTNUT (Jan 18, 2017)

Buyer beware aswel as seller beware in both cases I've seen the same old story wher both don't know if they have a real or fake piece weather it be a bike part ,car part , a carving , statue,  poetry ect.ect. have you seen Antique road show ? Its a story old as time , some one has something that somebody else wants , he either can't afford it or can't find one ? so he makes his own or has someone else do it for him ? And so it begins , things get thrown into the land fill or people hoard things , price gets drivin up and some settle for the copy that is more than likely affordable or just plain easer to find , Right or wrong copys have been hear long before we have and will continue long after , just like our opinions 

Rafael


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 18, 2017)

sfhschwinn said:


> For me original original original. I think if repops are to be made there should be a stamp put on every item that says reproduction so it is easy to tell the difference but should be put in a place where it wouldn't be seen when looking directly at it- for instance stamped inside of the tank or behind the head badge. As for tires I don't ride on originals as I want to preserve them for future generations. Luckily for me I collect Schwinns so the stingrays tire repops are readily available.



it's easy when you collect Schwinns, everything is available. 
here's my stance on putting some sort of mark on reproductions. 
1. if they're crap, they need no mark, they'll show their quality, or lack thereof.
2. if they're exact reproductions, I'm all for letting them patina in and blend in as real. in 50 years, John's parts will be indistinguishable from real, and will deserve to pass as real if they can. 50 years from now, if I'm still around, the two Super Streamlines I've made will most likely be sold and probably as real, or at least after an owner or two they will. at that point, I think they'll have earned their status as a real and worthy bike. 
on the good reproduction parts, it's not like they're being made en-mass in China, they're being made one off, in extremely high quality. I don't think they'll hurt the value, not for us non-Schwinn guys who just want a chance at owning something really rare and hard to get.
you also have nothing to worry about, John doesn't like Schwinns, so no worry about him making brand new Aerocycle tanks (though I've wanted him to just to piss everyone off).


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## 2jakes (Jan 19, 2017)

^^^^^
I recall Chestnut Hollow offering fiber glass  Aerocycle tanks.
And there was a guy from Kentucky who made not only the tanks from
steel but the frames as well.
He fabricated the rear tail light for my Aerocycle. Excellent work.


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 19, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> it's easy when you collect Schwinns, everything is available.
> here's my stance on putting some sort of mark on reproductions.
> 1. if they're crap, they need no mark, they'll show their quality, or lack thereof.
> 2. if they're exact reproductions, I'm all for letting them patina in and blend in as real. in 50 years, John's parts will be indistinguishable from real, and will deserve to pass as real if they can. 50 years from now, if I'm still around, the two Super Streamlines I've made will most likely be sold and probably as real, or at least after an owner or two they will. at that point, I think they'll have earned their status as a real and worthy bike.
> ...




So, to recap:

1. You plan on misleading future buyers regarding the authenticity of your bikes.
2. You detest another make of bicycle and its collectors so much you wish for reproduction parts solely out of spite.

Sounds reasonable.


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## 2jakes (Jan 19, 2017)

Autocycleplane said:


> So, to recap:
> 
> 1. You plan on misleading future buyers regarding the authenticity of your bikes.
> 2. You detest another make of bicycle and its collectors so much you wish for reproduction parts solely out of spite.
> ...











That's funny!
Thanks.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jan 19, 2017)

Autocycleplane said:


> So, to recap:
> 
> 1. You plan on misleading future buyers regarding the authenticity of your bikes.
> 2. You detest another make of bicycle and its collectors so much you wish for reproduction parts solely out of spite.
> ...



+1

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## rustjunkie (Jan 19, 2017)

For me, the appeal of old stuff lies squarely in the fact that it's old_._ Reproductions don't interest me because they detract from rather than increase that appeal. The importance of the intangibles that come with being the *genuine *_*thing* _are invaluable and immeasurable.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 19, 2017)

Autocycleplane said:


> So, to recap:
> 
> 1. You plan on misleading future buyers regarding the authenticity of your bikes.
> 2. You detest another make of bicycle and its collectors so much you wish for reproduction parts solely out of spite.
> ...




1. no
2. yes


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## bobcycles (Jan 19, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> it's easy when you collect Schwinns, everything is available.
> here's my stance on putting some sort of mark on reproductions.
> 1. if they're crap, they need no mark, they'll show their quality, or lack thereof.
> 2. if they're exact reproductions, I'm all for letting them patina in and blend in as real. in 50 years, John's parts will be indistinguishable from real, and will deserve to pass as real if they can. 50 years from now, if I'm still around, the two Super Streamlines I've made will most likely be sold and probably as real, or at least after an owner or two they will. at that point, I think they'll have earned their status as a real and worthy bike.
> ...





--------haha man you love to bash the schwinn shtuff ....   really?  everything available?  I need an aerocycle tail light....
an EA console button, .......on and on it goes with unobtanium.
You're comparing apples to oranges....there is common and rare Dayton stuff just as there is Schwinn and other brands, common and rare.  To carte-blanche say everything Schwinn is obtainablle is hilarious.

The best measure WOULD INDEED by some sort of marking ID'ing ANY and ALL repro stuff as fake.  Of course you'll always
have clowns monkeying with the 'marking' or trying to remove them.  I don't care who made it "GOD" or who ever....if it's 
fake, it's fake and the act of acquiring it and using it says only one thing.....You gave up on seeking out an original.
Threw in the Towel


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## SirMike1983 (Jan 19, 2017)

I had a draft blog entry on this subject I never published. This thread sort of revived it, so I may end up posting it. I apologize if this is too long for this forum, but hey, whatever.

People talk past each other on this subject. A clue as to why this happens is buried in this very good post:



rustjunkie said:


> For me, the appeal of old stuff lies squarely in the fact that it's old_._ Reproductions don't interest me because they detract from rather than increase that appeal. The importance of the intangibles that come with being the *genuine *_*thing* _are invaluable and immeasurable.




Let's set aside very cheap, junk reproduction parts for a minute. Those are the easy case - they are poorly made _and_ not original. They should be avoided, if possible.

Let's talk about very well-made reproductions versus originals, which is where the hardcore controversy tends to arise. There are two types of "fitness for a purpose" when you buy a bicycle part. There is fitness for the "general purpose", and there is "fitness for a more specific purpose". 

Take an "AS" monogram/D-head seat post binder bolt, for example (there was thread about AS binder bolts not long ago here). To some people and on some projects, any decently made binder bolt with a D-head and "AS" monogram will work. This could be a new, stainless bolt that was made in a shop anywhere in the US last year. As long as the _intrinsic_ quality is good and it functions as a binder bolt, then great. That is fitness for a "general" purpose: 'I just need a binder bolt that will work and look the part'. This is the "utilitarian" in the crowd.

Then there is fitness for a more "specific" purpose. This is the project where the person absolutely insists on an original. This is also the person who has an issue if they find out that binder bolt they bought, good as it might be, is not an original Schwinn product from the 1940s. The new bolt might actually be better at being a binder bolt - better made/less rust-prone, etc. However, it was not made at the factory in the 1940s, so it's not good enough. This is the "antique collector" - the article needs not only to work and look right, but it needs the _provenance_ of originality. 

Some people fall entirely into one category or the other, and some bounce back and forth. 

So people  argue endlessly about these topics, but they really talk past each other and not to each other because they disagree on some philosophical level on production/parts. It's also probably why we re-hash this stuff every 90 days or so on the boards.


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## JAF/CO (Jan 19, 2017)

What do you guys think false teeth or no teeth?[emoji41]


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## 2jakes (Jan 19, 2017)

SirMike1983 said:


> I had a draft blog entry on this subject I never published. This thread sort of revived it, so I may end up posting it. I apologize if this is too long for this forum, but hey, whatever.
> 
> People talk past each other on this subject. A clue as to why this happens is buried in this very good post:
> 
> ...




Then there is that  "antique collector" who insists on originality, but at the same time can
appreciate a well-made reproduction.
And the not so good cheap reproductions are just what they are without having the need
to tell the world.
The quality speaks for itself.

Also this "antique collector" appreciates all originals.
He may not own every single brand.
But he doesn't have a need to belittle or put them down if they are different than his own.

This is the "antique collector" that I admire and respect.
Where are these folks?
You can find them on my list of friends that are on the C.A.B.E. forum.

All of you guys on my list may have different opinions, but you are the
reason I come back to this forum.


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## Dr. Tankenstein (Jan 20, 2017)

JAF/CO said:


> What do you guys think false teeth or no teeth?[emoji41]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Depends on whether you're eating steak or soup, I guess...[emoji16]


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## JAF/CO (Jan 20, 2017)

Dr. Tankenstein said:


> Depends on whether you're eating steak or soup, I guess...[emoji16]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Hamburger !!


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## Schwinn499 (Jan 20, 2017)

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 20, 2017)

I really really want one of the new 26" Wingbars!


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 20, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> For me, the appeal of old stuff lies squarely in the fact that it's old_._ Reproductions don't interest me because they detract from rather than increase that appeal. The importance of the intangibles that come with being the *genuine *_*thing* _are invaluable and immeasurable.



interesting stance, what's your opinion on reproduction seat covers?


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## rustjunkie (Jan 20, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> interesting stance, what's your opinion on reproduction seat covers?




That depends.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 20, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> --------haha man you love to bash the schwinn shtuff ....   really?  everything available?  I need an aerocycle tail light....
> an EA console button, .......on and on it goes with unobtanium.
> You're comparing apples to oranges....there is common and rare Dayton stuff just as there is Schwinn and other brands, common and rare.  To carte-blanche say everything Schwinn is obtainablle is hilarious.
> 
> ...




just curious, what's your real opinion about this bike with it's reproduction paint and decals, and it's mix of parts?


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## John (Jan 20, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> interesting stance, what's your opinion on reproduction seat covers?



Everyone’s opinion changes when they are making money on it.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 20, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> That depends.



of course it does, reproductions are bad...unless they're the ones you're making.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 20, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> of course it does, reproductions are bad...unless they're the ones you're making.




Nope. That's not what was said and not what was meant. 
You decided to interpret it that way.


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## PCHiggin (Jan 20, 2017)

Its a beauty,its also too nice for me.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 20, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> Nope. That's not what was said and not what was meant.
> You decided to interpret it that way.



so, for or against your recovered seats?


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## rustjunkie (Jan 20, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> so, for or against your recovered seats?




Man, you just don't get it! 

Neither.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 20, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> Man, you just don't get it!
> 
> Neither.



oh I think I do get it. repops are great to bash, but they serve a necessary purpose. Bob recovers seats too. Bob does restores and paint and all sorts of repop stuff. 
I see people taking fenders off of this bike and a tank from over there, and it's all done as if it's still an original bike. 
the hypocrisy runs rampant. repops on my bike are terrible, but you'll sell me a repop seat, am I right?
my opinion are your seats are great, I would love to get one. I don't think they denegrate a bike whether a ratrod or a restore, or just the bike you ride. but somehow I'm supposed to have this split personality. let me put on my purist hat, repops are a terrible idea! now let me put on my let's go ride hat, man! this Rustjunkie seat was way worth it!

it's the same argument about parting bikes. I've watched the same people bash and cry about a bike being parted, while they quietly part bikes every day. I see people complain about a bike they wouldn't buy complete, but they'll take the fenders, all the while feeling good that they oppose parting bikes. 
I'm just for accepting what is very real. there aren't enough "real" parts out there, we need good reproductions, and we need to accept the good ones, and respect the people who bring them to us.
you have my respect and appreciation for your repop seats!


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## bricycle (Jan 20, 2017)

Disclosure is EVERYTHING!
Personally, I do not consider john 's items "re-pops"... maybe "re-manufactured" as they are as good or better than original. Some stuff really does need to be redone... tires, tubes, saddles, wood wheels, grips, decals, pedal rubber, glass items, plastic lenses, etc.
I see little wrong with reproducing something if wording or "something obvious" is changed to distinguish an Item from the original.
Back in the day reproduction hubcaps had the "make" spelled different... aka Buick was Buuck.


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## PCHiggin (Jan 20, 2017)

I'd rather have the latest Phantom fender set  sold by bicycle bones than rechroming an old set and losing some detail.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 20, 2017)

@37fleetwood
Here's what I wrote:



rustjunkie said:


> For me, the appeal of old stuff lies squarely in the fact that it's old_._ Reproductions don't interest me because they detract from rather than increase that appeal. The importance of the intangibles that come with being the *genuine *_*thing* _are invaluable and immeasurable.




I understand that reproductions exist. I never said "reproductions are terrible", and I don't think anyone is "bad" or "wrong" for making or using them.
These were my _thoughts and feelings_. I wasn't and am not trying to convince anyone of anything, and this is all the time I'll spend explaining myself to you 

In answering your question "what's your opinion on reproduction seat covers?" with "it depends" I was replying based on my own thoughts and feelings quoted above.
So yes, my answer your question is: it depends.
For an original bike that was only a showpiece I'd prefer the saddle that was original _to that bike._ For a rider, a restored saddle would increase my enjoyment because I believe originals get irreversibly worn with use...and bare metal pans aren't comfie for me to ride on.

Put what _you _like on _your _bike. Ride it, don't ride it, stare at it, stack it with others in a barn and forget about it or just enjoy knowing it's there...do whatever turns you on.


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 20, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> oh I think I do get it. repops are great to bash, but they serve a necessary purpose. Bob recovers seats too. Bob does restores and paint and all sorts of repop stuff.
> I see people taking fenders off of this bike and a tank from over there, and it's all done as if it's still an original bike.
> the hypocrisy runs rampant. repops on my bike are terrible, but you'll sell me a repop seat, am I right?
> my opinion are your seats are great, I would love to get one. I don't think they denegrate a bike whether a ratrod or a restore, or just the bike you ride. but somehow I'm supposed to have this split personality. let me put on my purist hat, repops are a terrible idea! now let me put on my let's go ride hat, man! this Rustjunkie seat was way worth it!
> ...




Conflating the restoration of original parts (paint, saddle recovering, plating) with the reproduction of new parts is a weak argument to make in my opinion. Also, using original parts to complete a bike is always preferable is it not? Given a choice between an original and even a perfect reproduction who would ever go with the repop given all things being equal? And who mentioned parting out bikes in this thread?

I'm not sure why you are taking things so personally here. Everyone seems very complimentary of your bike and the quality of the reproduction part(s) you deemed necessary to complete it. In the end, all folks are entitled to their opinion on the matter. We should all respect that and feel good that there is plenty of room in this hobby for all viewpoints. My personal stance - I simply disagree that reproductions should ever be considered authentic regardless of the quality, or that a specific brand of bike or type of collector deserves bashing or spite.

Each to their own, live and let live.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 20, 2017)

Autocycleplane said:


> Conflating the restoration of original parts (paint, saddle recovering, plating) with the reproduction of new parts is a weak argument to make in my opinion. Also, using original parts to complete a bike is always preferable is it not? Given a choice between an original and even a perfect reproduction who would ever go with the repop given all things being equal? And who mentioned parting out bikes in this thread?
> 
> I'm not sure why you are taking things so personally here. Everyone seems very complimentary of your bike and the quality of the reproduction part(s) you deemed necessary to complete it. In the end, all folks are entitled to their opinion on the matter. We should all respect that and feel good that there is plenty of room in this hobby for all viewpoints. My personal stance - I simply disagree that reproductions should ever be considered authentic regardless of the quality, or that a specific brand of bike or type of collector deserves bashing or spite.
> 
> Each to their own, live and let live.



you and I agree more than we disagree. I mostly wanted to point out the hypocrisy of the posters belittling reproductions, most of whom either make or sell reproduction stuff.
as for recovering seats, what is the difference between having a bike with a brand new reproduced seat covering, and having a brand new reproduced Chain Guard? it's splitting hairs.
again, it's just funny all the repops are bad people who reproduce seats.
I'm for repop parts done well.
I'm for cheap repops for people who just want something they can afford.
I'm for all original bikes in as found condition.
I'm for restored bikes.
I'm not for people who complain about what they themselves are guilty of doing.


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## Joe Buffardi (Jan 20, 2017)

I love quality reproduction parts made by hand in the USA in small garages.


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## JAF/CO (Jan 20, 2017)

Joe Buffardi said:


> I love quality reproduction parts made by hand in the USA in small garages.




[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji41][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rustjunkie (Jan 20, 2017)

Joe Buffardi said:


> I love quality reproduction parts made by hand in the USA in small garages.




I do too. I admire and applaud the ingenuity, attention to detail, and serious skill and talent that it takes to make something that's indistinguishable from the original. It's gratifying to those who make these things and satisfying to those who want them. But again, for me, and this shouldn't matter to anyone _but_ me, they just don't have that certain je ne sais quoi (AKA _sumpin-sumpin_ ) that the real-deal has.
In fifty years I won't be able to tell the difference, so who cares...I'll be dirt-napping anyway.


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## None (Jan 20, 2017)

Joe Buffardi said:


> I love quality reproduction parts made by hand in the USA in small garages.




@Joe Buffardi
@Velocipedist Co. 

 Yup!


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## bobcycles (Jan 21, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> so, for or against your recovered seats?






37fleetwood said:


> so, for or against your recovered seats?




restored seat is the only choice on a restored bike.  Restored = restored.
No one is trying to fool anyone with a restored saddle, just as a rechromed, re-nickeled, re-cad plated
original part is.....................RESTORED.   Not a remade part or 'repop' ....but restored.

There are indeed reproduction seats out there, some are high quality, some suck, they
fall into "I'm not going there  if I can avoid it" category.  Which is my opinion on repro parts
overall.   I will try my best to avoid 'going there', but indeed I have "gone there" when faced
with no other choice or the urging of a customer to expedite a project.

The hardware bits etc are of great benefit to the hobby and are not typically "showcase" or
grail pieces.  I just received a ND 2spd cable from John in SD.  It's a work of art.....AND?
A necessary 'puzzle piece' that typically goes missing or wears out.

Flag ship items like tanks, badges, big sheet metal parts, tires etc are what I'm not a big fan of
due to the potential availability of the orig parts


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## bobcycles (Jan 21, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> just curious, what's your real opinion about this bike with it's reproduction paint and decals, and it's mix of parts?





LOL--------I restored that lovely beast a few years back.  And from what I recall of that restoration, the owner
cut no corners there.  Restored with original parts.

Dude?   You're getting off track here......the comment was REPOP stuff Obi started....
not Restored bikes.

The above is a restored bike.  Using ORIGINAL parts ...no fake bomb, speedo, tires, pedals etc.
Schwinn USA mfg parts from the 1930s.  As close as you can get these days with going all the 
way on a restoration.

back to topic please.


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## bobcycles (Jan 21, 2017)

PCHiggin said:


> I'd rather have the latest Phantom fender set  sold by bicycle bones than rechroming an old set and losing some detail.





LOL  reaaaallly?  I'd rather replate a nice looking set of savable original Phantom fenders rather than
use cartoonish oversize repops with big fat rolled edges!   Funny stuff for 'preferences'.  And yes
good original fenders are out there you just need to work a bit to find them.
No excuse for using repop parts on relatively available vintage parts...
other
than
laziness

Sadly much of what America has become today....about the most poorly educated nation, highest illiteracy nation
in the developed world.  Shortcuts and cutting corners to all results ....minimal efforts to get the job done in way too many areas
of life.
My guess and I would almost bet money on this......that over 90% of restored Phantoms out there are laden
with repop garbage from overseas....maybe 95%

Join the club dude......at least you're not alone!


LOeffingL


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 21, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> restored seat is the only choice on a restored bike.  Restored = restored.
> No one is trying to fool anyone with a restored saddle, just as a rechromed, re-nickeled, re-cad plated
> original part is.....................RESTORED.   Not a remade part or 'repop' ....but restored.
> 
> ...




ok, so let me make sure I understand, having you make and install a reproduction seat cover is ok, but anything you don't make and sell is not good?



bobcycles said:


> LOL--------I restored that lovely beast a few years back.  And from what I recall of that restoration, the owner
> cut no corners there.  Restored with original parts.
> 
> Dude?   You're getting off track here......the comment was REPOP stuff Obi started....
> ...



...and repop decals are ok, but not tires? or is that only when you provide the repops?


this whole thing is ridiculous, certain things are ok, but others are not, and you get to decide which is which. restored bikes are good, but putting ridable tires on an original bike is bad?
just so I'm clear, leather is ok to repop, but anything metal is bad? unless, you said it's something you need like a brake cable, then the rules are suspended.
who's convinced by all this? 
look, I've been in many hobbies dealing with old stuff. all of them, without exception, allow for reproducing parts, ALL OF THEM!
this is the only hobby I've ever been in where there are so many complicated rules on what's kosher and what's not, and most of it has to do with who you talk to and what they accept, which often is subjective, and based solely on what they've had to conceed to in stuff they've done. hey, a recovered seat is completely acceptable because I need a good seat and can't find one, but your bike is crap because you couldn't find a chain guard and had to get a reproduction. my restore using reproduction decals is fine, but oh my, are those reproduction tires on your bike?


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## scrubbinrims (Jan 21, 2017)

Making the argument that a recovered saddle is a repop is absurd.
Vintage tires are on all my bikes and are not cost prohibitive...I don't think I have left a swap with at least 1 pair bought, and that includes last April Cyclone Coasters swap when I bought a pair and I carried them on the plane with me across the country.
I agree with Bob U on this one, tires are an often under-considered detail that complete an original survivor's authenticity and otherwise, just doesn't look right.
IMO.
Chris


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## bobcycles (Jan 21, 2017)

37fleetwood said:


> ok, so let me make sure I understand, having you make and install a reproduction seat cover is ok, but anything you don't make and sell is not good?
> 
> 
> ...and repop decals are ok, but not tires? or is that only when you provide the repops?
> ...








------------naw man, no one said your bike was 'crap' because of a repro chainguard......you're blowing this whole thing out of proportion.
Thread started with a comment made about badges repopped overseas somewhere.  And in todays lexicon the word "crap" often describes simply...."stuff" I use that word loosely on many levels. 

My issue and it' is soley my subjective, what ever you want to call it, "opinion" is simply that....my 2 cents.  Yes there will always
be reproduction parts.  I for one, am opposed to parts being made the negatively or adversely effect the VALUE of original parts that still DO exist and can be sourced with due dilligence...
parts people collect or invest in hopes of not 'taking a bath' thanks to fenders, tanks, whatever other 'major' parts are being made
that hurt the value and demand for originals.   Yes repro tires diminished demand and value of original USA rubber, how adversely?
is not known but the effect is there to a degree.  Same with Phantom parts, autocycle parts, Fake Delta headlights, FORGERY headbadges......the list goes on.

Dude.  It's not that difficult to see what is useful and necessary when it comes to repro parts. There are necessary 'evils' out there
that are a good thing!  Decals, brake cables, hardware etc, and of course restorations where paint and upholstery are key.


It's also not difficult to see what happens to the value when repops litter the earth.... Like when JW made Persons peds, Defender
Taillights, Wingos, Delta buttons etc.  The market TANKED on the original items.  And? most of what he made was horrible China garbage
that was unusable.  Do you need a CLIPPER speedo?  Some clown in Boston is selling them by the dozen!!!!
 A dude I know made a full on douche move and bugged everyone he could find,  for their rare headbadges, paying top dollar
to acquire the top super rare Schwinn badges.  Then had them ALLLLLL repopped.  The market tanked.  The imagery of these once super rare etched plates is now at visual "saturation" level eliciting Yawns rather than applause when they show up on line. Ayholes are even aging these things now as with other items.

There are some exceptions, but unfortunately.....much that is repopped is Greed and Profit motivated with no regard for the impact
on the original investment of the quality vintage part by those who often went to great lengths to obtain them.

lastly you asked,  'who is convinced by all this?' .....no one has to be convinced of anything.
 But when I see a restored bike done to such a high level of originality,
where the builder sourced and utilized rare vintage parts as opposed to easily snatching up repro stuff ......in my book?
 those efforts are much more highly commendable.
I think we should all applaud those who go to the greatest lengths for a quality vintage 'end result'.
So it goes at Pebble Beach and on and on in collector fields.

People GET screwed with repro parts and that is my major beef with the industry of repop.

A retired airline pilot once contacted me to look at a Phantom he was planning on buying here locally
from a woman who ran a 'vintage' bike/parts shop in Orange county, I think she eventually ended
up in prison for other matters lol.  The bike was 1800.00.
I got there, and the bike was a 300 dollar pile of smoke and mirrors repop, and even worse, junk.
In fact 300 was a stretch.
Thievery.

Because so much of this stuff exists thanks mostly to greed and lack of conscience, people will get screwed.


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## Western-Whizzer (Jan 21, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> ----Hardware bits and certain smalls are a good thang.
> 
> My stance has always been this.  ANYTHING that adversely effects the value/ desirability of vintage /rare parts
> should not be popped.  Repopping tires totally killed the original rubber value market no matter what anyone
> ...



Well said!!!


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## PCHiggin (Jan 21, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> LOL  reaaaallly?  I'd rather replate a nice looking set of savable original Phantom fenders rather than
> use cartoonish oversize repops with big fat rolled edges!   Funny stuff for 'preferences'.  And yes
> good original fenders are out there you just need to work a bit to find them.
> No excuse for using repop parts on relatively available vintage parts...
> ...




I think you need to actually see the fenders I've referred to.I believe they are the same as Memory Lane had made up....


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## bobcycles (Jan 22, 2017)

PCHiggin said:


> I think you need to actually see the fenders I've referred to.I believe they are the same as Memory Lane had made up.Doesnt sound like you have...




----trust me I've seen them.  I know the guy who had them made originally back in the 80s.  They're not 'bad' quality, just have
noticeable mold traits that are obvious to me.  But hey maybe that's a good thing having repops vary enough
to be recognized from the originals.

anyway...the repro stuff in general waters down the motivation of a lot of people to look a bit harder for the genuine parts.
This whole topic is a matter of personal idealogy on this stuff anyway, everyone is going to feel differently about 
the use of aftermarket parts and hey that's fine.  As long as we're all happy what we're doing yippeee.


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## PCHiggin (Jan 22, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> ----trust me I've seen them.  I know the guy who had them made originally back in the 80s.  They're not 'bad' quality, just have
> noticeable mold traits that are obvious to me.  But hey maybe that's a good thing having repops vary enough
> to be recognized from the originals.
> 
> ...




These are NOT  from the 80's.Read my post. Why do some people have to get nasty and personal over an opinion about a bike? Lazy?? Ideology?? (you misspelled that) ,lol!! WTF are you writing here?? Hey,This is supposed to be fun. Lighten up already!


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## spoker (Jan 22, 2017)

does anyone else not care for treads like this?


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## Dale Alan (Jan 22, 2017)

spoker said:


> does anyone else not care for treads like this?



+1


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## cyclingday (Jan 22, 2017)

It must have been a slow day out in Lancaster.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 22, 2017)

So looks like we're all good, gonna snap the lid back on


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