# Super rare find!!



## spencehouse

Found this on my FB feed:

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2528414847443285/

Not my listing and I don’t know this person, but super cool!!


----------



## Jesse McCauley

The cat’s out of the box!! Or is it a bird...? 
Love this 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spencehouse

Jesse McCauley said:


> The cat’s out of the box!! Or is it a bird...?
> Love this
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





You were one of the people I thought of with this.


----------



## New Mexico Brant

@kccomet  @Dweber @corbettclassics @Blue Streak


----------



## Jesse McCauley

So the story I heard maybe 2 months back was that this lucky gentleman (as indicated by the pickup truck pics) found this kit in the trash outside of a historic home being renovated. 

Another pipe dream for us all to fall asleep to at night!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## saladshooter

I'm glad this wasn't one of the cry wolf rare find links...man those suck.


----------



## Frank and Pam Skid Kings

Wow ! ...there's something you don't see every day. Unbelievable.


----------



## cyclingday

New Mexico Brant said:


> @kccomet  @Dweber @corbettclassics




My thoughts exactly.


----------



## lgrinnings

Wowzers.


----------



## Jewelman13

I heard about this also!


----------



## Jewelman13

The bike is a Fleet Wing


----------



## New Mexico Brant

Thank you for posting @spencehouse.  You better watch your back because the Boston Baked Bean Bike Mafia maybe after you for posting earlier than the ordained time for bicycles in your area.  What an incredible discovery, it will be interesting to see what unfolds about the history of the racer(s) William C Stinson.


----------



## bikejunk

Yep I had this offered to me a few months ago for the same price


----------



## gkeep

Fantastic story and great save! After working at a solid waste transfer station for almost 29 years I'm not surprised this was rescued from the trash. Valuable items are being tossed all the time somewhere.  All my bikes were being thrown out by someone. I hate to think of all the great bikes that we don't save before they get scrapped...

I hope it finds a great home/museum and is well cared for.


----------



## ericbaker

Ive seen this in person, its definitely got a great look and feel, really an incedible find. Stinson was a well known racer in the day, taking high finishes against riders like Iver johnson's Harry Elkes on more than one occasion.


----------



## lgrinnings

New Mexico Brant said:


> Thank you for posting @spencehouse.  You better watch your back because the Boston Baked Bean Bike Mafia maybe after you for posting earlier than the ordained time for bicycles in your area.  What an incredible discovery, it will be interesting to see what unfolds about the history of the racer(s) William C Stinson.




Watch it...


----------



## FSH

Gee!  Wowza!  Shazam! Bling... That is for the person who has everything!!!


----------



## GiovanniLiCalsi

Is a mummy included, in the deal?
It’s a Reading, not a Rambler?


----------



## Bikebones

How does one contact the owner ??


----------



## John G04

I know next to nothing about these old racing bikes but after seeing a Iver Johnson sign sell at hershey for $10,000 this seems like a good deal. Can’t ride a sign lol!


----------



## New Mexico Brant

Bikebones said:


> How does one contact the owner ??



Through Facebook messenger Keith.  Please buy it so I can visit it time to time!


----------



## ivrjhnsn

I'll be happy to pick it up for the new CABE owner... Framingham is down the street for a few of us,,,,,,


----------



## hoofhearted




----------



## corbettclassics

Stinson only raced a Rambler for one year. It’s too bad it doesn’t have the correct year bike in the box but still a great piece.


----------



## piercer_99

this is freaking sweet.


----------



## Jewelman13

I’d sell my left toe for that sweet find!


----------



## FSH

Jewelman13 said:


> I’d sell my left toe for that sweet find!



Big toe, or the little toe that went "wee wee wee" all the way home?


----------



## ericbaker

The bike is a "Red Wing" made by Worcester MFG Co.


----------



## lgrinnings

ericbaker said:


> The bike is a "Red Wing" made by Worcester MFG Co.




Is that where Major Taylor worked for Birdie Munger before the turn of the century?


----------



## bricycle

If someone here gets it, lets see lots of detailed shots.... ephemera etc....


----------



## ericbaker

lgrinnings said:


> Is that where Major Taylor worked for Birdie Munger before the turn of the century?




Yes, Birdie moved from Indiana to start the Worcester Cycle MFG Co. with a partner around 1897. He brought Major Taylor with him and for a brief while was MT's race sponser. In 1898 he raced a Comet and then a Stearns w/ Sager chainless gear in 1899 when he won his first world championship. Iver johnson picked him up to start the 1900 season, i think he stayed with them for a while.

Edit: New England Cycle Co in Worcester made the Red Wing, not the Worcester Cycle Co... i mixed up my turn of the century Worcester bicyle factories, oops


----------



## razinhellcustomz

Jesse McCauley said:


> So the story I heard maybe 2 months back was that this lucky gentleman (as indicated by the pickup truck pics) found this kit in the trash outside of a historic home being renovated.
> 
> Another pipe dream for us all to fall asleep to at night!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Man that is one LUCKY Dog. Good for him. Thanks for sharing. Razin.


----------



## ericbaker

razinhellcustomz said:


> Man that is one LUCKY Dog. Good for him. Thanks for sharing. Razin.




THE luckiest....this is the same guy that sold me the recently uncovered Colson Hi-Lo that he pulled out of an old woman's basement during a cleanout. 

smh


----------



## razinhellcustomz

ericbaker said:


> THE luckiest....this is the same guy that sold me the recently uncovered Colson Hi-Lo that he pulled out of an old woman's basement during a cleanout.
> 
> smh



WoW!!! Are their any pics of this bike posted? Thanks. Razin.


----------



## oldy57

The crank on the bike looks like a Williams, cottered crank. Not as early as the case the bike is in.


----------



## FSH

New Mexico Brant said:


> I am curious how the seller came up with $10,000 price?  Maybe you can comment Eric @ericbaker as you have met the fellow.
> 
> This is the third such crate I have seen this year (one was in a collection and not for sale).  The William Stinson provenance is interesting but he is just a blip in the 19th racing scene so his name doesn't add significant value.  If it was a Major Taylor or other great racer's crate I could see the added value the name would add.  Optimally, one would wish the crate would say "Red Wing Team" instead of "Rambler, " or have a Rambler bicycle in the crate?   If one values out the bike, parts, and the crate what is a fair price?  If you value each component in the group I find it hard to get to $10,000.  It is not my intention to be critical of the seller's price, I am just interested in knowing how true collectors of this material would value this find.  Any thoughts folks?
> 
> Here is the other similar crate that sold this year for reference; I have also seen better images from the new owner and it appears to be in similar condition to the Stinson/Rambler crate:
> 
> View attachment 1080330
> 
> View attachment 1080331



Well said.  The seller seems to be chumming the water, so to speak, in order to gain a premium on the sale.  This is laudable.  However, the eventual buyer should go in with both eyes open.


----------



## corbettclassics

Here's my 2 cents on this whole thing:

I think the "Stinson" case is a much more interesting case than the "Empire" case for example ( or any case for that matter ).

In order to compare the two - I think the "Empire" case is just a case!  It's a nice bicycle box but that's all it is. Historically the Stinson case rivals any case! One has to love bicycle racers to appreciate a case like this.  We racers are a small group.

The "Stinson" case is from one of the top riders of the times racing against racers like Walthour, Leander, Albert Champion, Harry Elkes and many others.  He was actually said to be one of the top 4 pacers of his time.

If one goes back and looks at Will Stinson himself, this particular box is a one year only box.  I believe it says "Rambler 6 Team" because Stinson raced Rambler 1 year only ( there appears to be a 6 to the top left of the "T" in Team ).  That was 1900 when he was 19 yrs old and started racing the 6-Day events.  In 1899 when he was 18 he was riding the 2 man pacing tandems for Orient and pacing the greats.  In 1900 at 19 yrs of age he signed on with Rambler and started racing the 6-Day events with partner Babcock.  In 1901 Stinson went on to race for Orient and focused mainly on pacing events.

NOTE: In 1903 it was Stinson that was involved in that deadly crash that killed the great Harry Elkes.  It was Gatley who was Stinson's Pacer that actually ran over Harry Elkes who was killed at Charles River track.  Stinson almost lost an eye here in this crash and both were carried off the track on stretchers.  He went on to sign with Spooner and Wells after this.

So, for me the box is extremely important because it's one year only box ( 1900 ) when he raced for Rambler.  Extremely RARE..!!!!!!!  The bike should have a 1900 Rambler Racer in it to be a much more interesting package but I think the box is worth every penny in my opinion!

In regards to the "Red Wing" - I personally think this was a bike just put in the box back in the day.  I'm not convinced the bike has any connection to Will C. Stinson.  It's an interesting bike but the parts in the box are more interesting that they are all pacing chainrings etc and that's what Stinson is best known for.  So maybe all the rings were his but the bike has me scratching my chin on any connection.

The bicycle boxes attached to racers are the rarest of the rare!  Here's one I've search for belonging to the great Eddie Bald.  I would pay upwards of $20,000 for this case if I found it.  I have never seen another case besides the Stinson case with the actual racers name on it.  They are usually just bike boxes with the company name and again .... just bike boxes.


----------



## New Mexico Brant

corbettclassics said:


> Here's my 2 cents on this whole thing:



Excellent!  This is the dialog I was hoping my post inspired, thank you very much Bill for you perspective!


----------



## ericbaker

New Mexico Brant said:


> Excellent!  This is the dialog I was hoping my post inspired, thank you very much Bill for you perspective!




Great write up indeed Bill, thank you i had written some of this (in regards to the mismatched bicycle) in a previous reply but deleted it so as to not upset the seller if he happens to see this.. we've done and i hope to continue doing business with him....

Harry Elkes grew up in my fathers home town in upstate, NY so i had done personal research on him that led me across Stinson's name frequently enough that i took note. I was floored when i saw the case and he was impressed that i knew who he was at all.

The seller is a good fella... and a savvy guy no doubt. He's a general collector/dealer/junker that has dealt with a lot of great stuff over the years so he knew right off he had something special. I know that as he sent out photos to museums around the country he got such a big response that he went high with the price. i know he has at least one offer of over $4k and that was before he started publicly shopping it around. He's not in a hurry with this once in a lifetime find.

In my opinion the difference between this being a $5000 piece and a 5 figure piece is the broken chain of ownership and therefor lack of 100% provenance. I don't think anyone doubts that the case was Stinson's personal case, but with the bike not being the "proper" bike it raises questions that will likely never have answers.... was the bike owned or used by Stinson at all? (I was not aware that he only raced for Rambler for 1 year, so thank you for that bit)  Did someone else use the case after Stinson was done with it? who's is the bike in the case if not Stinsons?... Ive advised him to do the legwork to firm up as much info as he can if he wants to maximize it... research the house it came from to see if Stinson ever owned it... not sure what else i suppose but i think perhaps there is a bit leg work that can be done to fill gaps in the story.


----------



## corbettclassics

I agree about trying to find a connection with the house and Stinson.  I have brought that up to someone else as well because somewhere the bike must be somewhat important.  My only note is that it is a box for a Rambler Racer and it would be best to display it with the Rambler bike.

That Red Wing bike has been in the box a long time.  It has lots of beautiful patina that both box and bike match well together.  I think your right that someone else inherited the box and may have been a racer where the bike just stayed in the box one day and never got pulled back out. I don’t think I would ever separate the two until there was concrete evidence that they don’t really belong together but there should be the correct Rambler displayed in front of the box even if it isn’t Stinson’s Rambler but it would be an exact copy of what he raced on and what would have been in the box originally.

Are you saying the Red Wing was made by Munger? I have a few things on Munger.  If it is then the bike itself is worth a huge chunk of change!!


----------



## ericbaker

corbettclassics said:


> Are you saying the Red Wing was made by Munger? I have a few things on Munger.  If it is then the bike itself is worth a huge chunk of change!!




I shouldnt go from memory on some of these details, my apologies... the Red Wing was not made by Munger's Worcester Cycle Co, it was made by New England Cycle Co in Worcester, MA (owned by local bowling and roller skate champion JW Grady)... ive edited some previous posts to reflect my miscue... theres a lot of cycling history here in worcester (the house that major taylor owned is only a mile or two from me at this moment) and being a local im always trying to find whatever i can.... info, ephemera, parts, bikes , etc... occasionally i get things crossed.


----------



## corbettclassics

I see 

Alf Goulett raced a New England Racer and Kopsky raced on the curved seat tube New England Racer. The “Red Wing” rings a bell somehow and I just need to research a few things.

Great information and I’m sure somehow we’ll find that the “Red Wing” in the box is actually a very significant bike. It does seem quite rare!


----------



## Dweber

Any other photos of bicycle trunks out there?
 Great piece of bicycle history!


----------



## pelletman

There is a Zimmerman case out there that I have seen with my own eyes....


----------



## corbettclassics

pelletman said:


> There is a Zimmerman case out there that I have seen with my own eyes....



Geez Dave ...... I couldn’t even imagine what that case would be worth!


----------



## corbettclassics

Looks like the box SOLD!

Whoever got this has one helluva piece..!! 

The "Cream de la Cream" of bicycle racing artifacts.


----------



## corbettclassics

Dweber said:


> Any other photos of bicycle trunks out there?
> Great piece of bicycle history!




I have other pics of trunks I've been saving..


----------



## partsguy

Very cool and very rare item! It saddens me greatly to think that such historical items are thrown out with common garbage!


----------



## Phattiremike

This was a fun thread to read, what a lucky devil to find this cool piece of cycling history in the trash!.  Do we know who scored the case?

Mike


----------



## kccomet

like the song a fool and his money


----------



## New Mexico Brant

Phattiremike said:


> This was a fun thread to read, what a lucky devil to find this cool piece of cycling history in the trash!.  Do we know who scored the case?
> 
> Mike



It was last spotted this morning in Missouri heading West....


----------



## corbettclassics

We know the bike box went to Kansas.  That owner then sold it - BUT "apparently" kept some of the SUPER RARE Stinson Stayer items for himself and split the box up.  Those Stinson items stayed together for over 100 years and it only takes one &*%# to split up and destroy history!! What a shame.

Here's a nice shot of the *RAMBLER RACING TEAM* for 1900 .. .. .. for anyone interested. ( That Rambler Box was 1900 for Stinson 6-Day )

Can anyone name the racers?


----------



## razinhellcustomz

FSH said:


> Big toe, or the little toe that went "wee wee wee" all the way home?



What does the FSH stand for,initials or FISH?  Just curious. Thanks. Razin.


----------



## kccomet

corbettclassics said:


> We know the bike box went to Kansas.  That owner then sold it - BUT "apparently" kept some of the SUPER RARE Stinson Stayer items for himself and split the box up.  Those Stinson items stayed together for over 100 years and it only takes one &*%# to split up and destroy history!! What a shame.
> 
> Here's a nice shot of the *RAMBLER RACING TEAM* for 1900 .. .. .. for anyone interested. ( That Rambler Box was 1900 for Stinson 6-Day )
> 
> Can anyone name the racers?
> 
> View attachment 1342084



"apparently" you got some misinformation. everything was sold together, nothing split up. you can rest easy, history wasn't destroyed, at least on my watch


----------

