# 1890's Pope Pedals - What Size Wrench?



## Jesse McCauley (Jun 25, 2016)

I'm trying to determine what size this Allen style pedal axle is, I don't want to damage it using the wrong size, anyone have an idea or better yet an early wrench they would be willing to sell?

Thanks everyone!






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## CrazyDave (Jun 25, 2016)

A set of allen wrenches are available CHEAP most anywhere.  You'll need others eventually, spring the $10-$20 and pick up a standard and metric set.  As for the knowing the size of that, sorry. I do not.


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## Jesse McCauley (Jun 25, 2016)

I have standard and metric in the general sizes sold in the sets and on various small hand key sets. 
This is a distinct, oversized, 19th century, potentially pre standardization Allen head?


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## CrazyDave (Jun 25, 2016)

oh, never heard of such a thing sorry for my ignorance and good luck!


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## Jesse McCauley (Jun 25, 2016)

All goooood, I'm hopeful I can find some old pope branded wrench somewhere, I don't want to strip it and I'm itching to clean these pedals up 


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## TR6SC (Jun 25, 2016)

Hey Jesse, Google "Oddball Allen Wrench Size." What is the size of the Allen? You should be able to find something. If not, modify an Allen that is oversize.  A table saw with a sandpaper blade can get pretty precise. You can keep your angles exact by tilting the blade. This is one way. Keep things wet to maintain the temper. If you don't need to grind much, it should go easy! Famous last words.


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## Jesse McCauley (Jun 28, 2016)

Soooo update, I think this is a 9mm hex head....if you know your allen sets you know that is not a standard size offered. 
Anyone happen to have an old 9mm wrench hidden away?


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## CrazyDave (Jun 28, 2016)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/182126350149?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
$5


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## Jesse McCauley (Jun 28, 2016)

I was just cruising some of the online options. I'm a little worried about some of the obvious errors and misrepresented products I'm seeing but I'll risk the 2.50 for a seemingly bastard child hex wrench, thanks though Dave 


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## highwheel431 (Jun 28, 2016)

I don't think anyone in the US in the 1890's would be using metric anything. Not knowing what size you actually measured, the closest English size to 9mm(.354") would be 11/32"(.344").  So a 9mm might be too big.


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## XBPete (Jun 28, 2016)

I would consider the old Wentworth sizes as a possibility,,,,

Some of the older cars had the misfortune of requiring that set of wrenches and allens to service... just a thought from an  old wrench twister


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## bikejunk (Jun 28, 2016)

wentworth is the thread not the head     no I agree with above it is just a non standard size you can get a comprehensive wrench set from kline tools we have every jump in metric and sae they are avalable...


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## catfish (Jun 28, 2016)




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## CrazyDave (Jun 28, 2016)

bikejunk said:


> wentworth is the thread not the head     no I agree with above it is just a non standard size you can get a comprehensive wrench set from kline tools we have every jump in metric and sae they are avalable...



COuld you link me to the wentworth you speak of?  I think here listed you may find what you seek OP. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth

or more precisely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Cycle

Perhaps not but sounds like it fits to me.


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## Jesse McCauley (Jun 28, 2016)

Lots of good points, particularly that metric in the 1890's US is out of sync, the search continues then...11/32 it is? 


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## CrazyDave (Jun 28, 2016)

catfish said:


> View attachment 334180



And I have yet to find anything this would not remove! LOL!


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## XBPete (Jun 29, 2016)

bikejunk said:


> wentworth is the thread not the head     no I agree with above it is just a non standard size you can get a comprehensive wrench set from kline tools we have every jump in metric and sae they are avalable...




Sorry, Whitworth... and you sir should know your tools .. there are a few sizes of BS Allen keys that nothing else fits although most except iirc 4 sizes that only the Whitworth key would fit. Sockets and spanners were also in Whitworth,,,

Not the thread but the head, the use of those size tools would make a factory proprietary tool a must buy back in the day, I've only been turning wrenches for 58 years, you probably know better....


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## bikejunk (Jun 29, 2016)

XBPete said:


> Sorry, Whitworth... and you sir should know your tools .. there are a few sizes of BS Allen keys that nothing else fits although most except iirc 4 sizes that only the Whitworth key would fit. Sockets and spanners were also in Whitworth,,,
> 
> Not the thread but the head, the use of those size tools would make a factory proprietary tool a must buy back in the day, I've only been turning wrenches for 58 years, you probably know better....




  my stable includes a 1917 Triumph a 1914 Lea Francis and a 1928 German built Triumph i guess im fairly familiar with Whitworth but he dosnt have to go nuts buying all the tools I have collected over the years just the right size allen for his pedal he sounds like he doesnt have that coffee can full of bastard unmarkes allenkeys like I do...... now one of these has to fit........LOL


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## CrazyDave (Jun 29, 2016)

lets find this guy his allen wrench fellas! Im 100% sure I aint got one if it aint standard or metric, so offer one up or lead OP to the right one! HOOO-RAH!


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## TR6SC (Jun 29, 2016)

Sounds like he needs an 11/32. If that's a no fit, sand down something that is close. Give the damn things to catfish, he'll fix 'em!!!


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## TR6SC (Jun 29, 2016)

P.S. There is no such thing as Wentworth. The guy was the first person on earth to measure 1/1,000,000 of an inch. At least we could say his name right.


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## Jesse McCauley (Jun 29, 2016)

If only we could all get together and and try our various unmarked hex keys on this bastard pedal. 
I looked and have not found offered an 11/32 wrench, asked around at the  multiple hardware stores to no avail


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## Jesse McCauley (Jun 29, 2016)

As I just moved into the Detroit area I bet I could find a machine shop with all the Whitworth wrenches I could ask for to test out, how to go about asking around about British cars in Detroit and not get punched in the face is yet to be determined.


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## CrazyDave (Jun 29, 2016)

I got a pal who has more old jaguars and parts than any sane person should, let me ask him.  We exhange favors often and im just over 3 hours from detroit.


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## Jesse McCauley (Jun 29, 2016)

Thanks Dave, maybe we will get a chance to meet while I'm on this side of the world, looking a 3 year stint around here. 

I just found this page, looks informative. 
http://www.baconsdozen.co.uk/tools/conversion charts.html


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## XBPete (Jul 1, 2016)

TR6SC said:


> P.S. There is no such thing as Wentworth. The guy was the first person on earth to measure 1/1,000,000 of an inch. At least we could say his name right.




I corrected the mistake in spelling down a couple posts... keyboard warrior spell checkers....  geesh... read and get a life...

And the reason for thinking British and Whitworth tool was a possible was this page from the Mead catalog, here is 1911 where the use of British parts was touted in a TOC bike


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## Jesse McCauley (Jul 1, 2016)

English ribbed fork crown ehhhh?
Verrrry interestink 
I'll get these pedals off without mangling or compromising them or the crank arms, whitworth or 9 mm or 11/32 or homemade if I have to 


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## Jesse McCauley (Jul 4, 2016)

Talked to a pro wheelman today who confirmed, def a British standard hex wrench on Pope built bikes in the era, that follows I spose as he borrowed so much from across the bond...ie ordinaries Etc 


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## pelletman (Jul 5, 2016)

Jesse McCauley said:


> As I just moved into the Detroit area I bet I could find a machine shop with all the Whitworth wrenches I could ask for to test out, how to go about asking around about British cars in Detroit and not get punched in the face is yet to be determined.




Or shot...


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## pelletman (Jul 5, 2016)

Maybe you could get a 9MM wrench in there?  Or find 11/32 hex stock and put a wrench on it?  Or mill a 11/32 hex and go into the special Columbia pedal wrench business.


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