# So I have this imposter in my shop...



## Bikehaus (Mar 14, 2022)

Hello all!
So I got this Schwinn in my store a few days ago from a family friend for a Vintage show we did. Serial number puts it in as a Chicgo made 1961. Now, the problem is, it has this Shelby Flyer badge on it, a half fender in the back and some rando paint job. It belonged to the owners brother who died three years after he says they bought it brand new. He swears it had this paint job, and he swears his brother never cut the back fender. Obv, someone stuck the badge on it, easy fix... I can't find a single Schwinn that came off the line with a paint job like this, or a sheared off fender with now edge roll to keep the edge from slicing off your finger (which I nearly did).

So... does anyone have any input? He is older, and it was 60 years ago, and maybe his brother didn't tell anyone he cut the fender because he crashed and couldnt bend it back or something. I dunno... help (and thank you!)


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## Freqman1 (Mar 14, 2022)

The bike did not come like that. Someone added the flame pinstripes, wrong seat, wrong-or cur rear fender. V/r Shawn


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## Bikehaus (Mar 14, 2022)

With the Stainless Steel fenders, it would have been the Corvette model, right?


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## bloo (Mar 14, 2022)

You have a lot in common with my 61 speedster, the 61-only(?) stem, deluxe headset, same chainguard, etc. I'm on the fence about the handlebars, I posted a thread about those a while back, got a lot of responses, and I can't tell if these are the expected ones for 61, or if they are longer. The oval grips look older to me, but I am not sure when they stopped using them.

It looks like a Schwinn paint job to me, the candy-type red that fades to gold, and you can see that happening in a couple of spots. There is a lot more red left than usual. I think someone must have scrubbed the silkscreening off to do the flame job. Maybe in the right light you could see what it was on the chainguard.

The fenders do look Schwinn, Are you sure they are stainless? I would expect a Corvette to have a partially chromed chainguard, so it probably isn't that.

Corvettes had hand brakes, and although you could get a coaster in 61, I doubt they would delete the front brake. You don't have the right fork for a front brake.

There's no caliper bridge on the frame, so I assume it was built with a coaster hub of some kind. What kind does it have now?


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## GTs58 (Mar 14, 2022)

So it has a 1961 serial number? That stem was used only in 1961 and it does have the deluxe head set as previously noted. That has also been repainted and rebuilt. The bobbed rear fender looks like it was made from a front fender, it's hacked at the chain guard area. The Corvette or higher end models didn't use that front hub. Chain guard looks like it may have been the chromed piece, shiny showing were the paint is worn on the top front. Grips are the repopped pieces from the 2009 time period. Those bars were not used on the Corvette nor were those pedals. 

In my opinion, this piece was totally rebuilt from ground up with a variety of different parts so its real identity is lost. It may have started out as a Corvette but lots of the parts were replaced and it was repainted.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Mar 14, 2022)

that's no imposter, that's a Chicago Schwinn. I know lots of 60-year-old humans who wish they still had that many original parts  🙂


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## Bikehaus (Mar 14, 2022)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> that's no imposter, that's a Chicago Schwinn. I know lots of 60-year-old humans who wish they still had that many original parts  🙂



Only an imposter because of the Shelby badge


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## Bikehaus (Mar 14, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> So it has a 1961 serial number? That stem was used only in 1961 and it does have the deluxe head set as previously noted. That has also been repainted and rebuilt. The bobbed rear fender looks like it was made from a front fender, it's hacked at the chain guard area. The Corvette or higher end models didn't use that front hub. Chain guard looks like it may have been the chromed piece, shiny showing were the paint is worn on the top front. Grips are the repopped pieces from the 2009 time period. Those bars were not used on the Corvette nor were those pedals.
> 
> In my opinion, this piece was totally rebuilt from ground up with a variety of different parts so its real identity is lost. It may have started out as a Corvette but lots of the parts were replaced and it was repainted.



The only thing I can say for sure is that these are the same grips. It was hanging in the same garage for the last 35 years and no one touched it.


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## old hotrod (Mar 15, 2022)

A Schwinn that identifies itself as a Shelby...interesting, I thought all old bikes were Schwinns...🤣


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## sccruiser (Mar 15, 2022)

So what I hear is , kinda Corvette, mostly Schwinn, a little bit Shelby and has a weird rear end.
That's easy this is a " Schwelby Corvair"


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## Bikehaus (Mar 15, 2022)

Does the Serieal number lend any info to the model? It is Serial B123734. The 'Model No' in the 1961 series for the Wasp started with B12... but it does not have the stainless steel or chrome fenders. It does have the built in kickstand, but does not have the chrome lugs on the fork.


I had a 1960 Sport Model Sears Flightliner in my shop as well, but the frame was a left over 1959 that they stripped all the fancy stuff from and sold it as a lighter weight cheaper model. Did stores back then swap things around if something was broken in transport?


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## bloo (Mar 15, 2022)

It didn't work like that. B12 is a coincidence, and the Wasp is a balloon tired bike, the only one Schwinn still made in 1961. "B1" means February 1961, and B123734 had it's dropout stamped on February 9. See here:

https://thecabe.com/serial-numbers/schwinn-serial-numbers-1952-1969/

Nailing down what model is almost impossible as Schwinn used the same frames and forks for several models.

If you go through the catalog, it is possible to narrow it down, at least if you make some assumptions based on the Schwinn parts that are still present. It is probably not possible to narrow it down to one model though.

Here is a thought, Schiwnn had special frames and forks for bikes with caliper brakes. Both your frame and your fork are the "no caliper" version.

Now that might not mean that much with the frame, because if a rear caliper was not needed because someone ordered a coaster brake Schwinn could have used the "no caliper" frame, regardless of what "model" it was.

There is also a 90 degree bolt thingamabob made by Weinmann, who also made a bunch of Schwinn approved calipers, that lets you put a caliper on a non-caliper frame. Schwinn may have had those in their bag of tricks. I don't think they used them very often at the factory though, if at all.

So, the frame proves nothing, but it argues for a model that did not have a rear caliper.

Your fork is the one for no caliper. It is often referred to as "undrilled", but it is really a different forging to have enough meat to drill the hole. The blades of the "drilled" fork are longer too, and once you see that you can't miss it. That pretty much means if the fork is original, it was a model that came with no front caliper. The only way to get one would be to use the old Schwinn cantilever setup that clamps to the fork, and I feel pretty confident the factory didn't ever do that in 1961.

If the front fender is 1961, I believe it has to be Corvette to be stainless, but if it is Corvette, It would have not come with that non-caliper fork because Corvettes have front calipers. Furthermore, it would have had an L-bracket riveted on it to reach up to the caliper bolt, because the caliper-type fork is longer. Either the fender or the fork is wrong.

I am guessing the fender is wrong and it isn't a Corvette. The frame with no brake bridge and the chainguard with no chrome add a little support to that idea.

Corrections welcome.....


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Mar 15, 2022)

bloo said:


> It didn't work like that. B12 is a coincidence, and the Wasp is a balloon tired bike, the only one Schwinn still made in 1961. "B1" means February 1961, and B123734 had it's dropout stamped on February 9. See here:
> 
> https://thecabe.com/serial-numbers/schwinn-serial-numbers-1952-1969/
> 
> ...



Didn't they offer a coasterbrake Corvette?


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## bloo (Mar 15, 2022)

They did! I don't know if they deleted the rear caliper when they did. Probably. I'll bet they didn't delete the front caliper, and that is the crux of the problem with it being a Corvette. The front caliper needs a whole different fork.

https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCat/flschwinn_1961_1970/

Lets start with the first cantilever frames in the book (page 6 or 1961_05)

Looks like Mark IV Jaguar and Corvette both had stainless fenders. They also both had front calipers. They also are pictured with northroad handlebars, and some chrome on the chainguard.

Panther III it shown without a front caliper, but still has chrome on the guard and northroad handlebars. 

If you could still see the shadow of "Schwinn" on the top bar that would be a clue. Corvette would have it, Panther III and Jaguar IV probably not because they have tanks.

Tiger is looking promising, painted guard, no front caliper, steerhorn bars. Next page, Speedster looks good for the same reasons as Tiger. 

Streamliner and Hornet too, but they had tanks, so no Schwinn script on top bar. Streamliner pictured with northroad bars, Hornet is pictured with boy scout bars. Hornet also mentions painted rims, so if the wheels are original, Hornet is out of the running. Spitfire is pictured with boy scout bars and painted rims. It has the wrong type of chainguard altogether, so it is out. Nothing else in the catalog has a cantilever middleweight boys frame.

If we assume that there are no mistakes in the catalog, and Schwinn changed nothing after it was printed... LOL, a very bold assumption it is either:

If the Stainless fenders are original, it's a Mark IV Jaguar or a Corvette that was built with a coaster brake, and the fork is wrong among other things.

Or, It is a Tiger, Speedster, Streamliner, or Panther III. If the steerhorn bars are original, and I am not completely convinced, then it's a Tiger or Speedster.


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## GTs58 (Mar 15, 2022)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Didn't they offer a coasterbrake Corvette?




Yes they did. The bike in question here most likely was a Speedster or Tiger. Even if a Corvette was built as a coaster it would still have the frame with the flat brake/fender bracket. This was normal since the beginning of the middleweight. If a certain model had an option for gears, it had the flat brake bridge whether it used that option or not. So a non geared Corvette still had the flat bridge and maybe even a drilled fork. My 55 Corvette is a coaster and it has a drilled fork and it has the flat brake bracket.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Mar 16, 2022)

"at this point what difference does it make?"

I'd add a Schwinn badge to the bike then put the Shelby Badge on my Huffman-Monark-JC Higgins-Frankenbike, take the fenders off, add a brooks seat and ride it like a madman. 🙂


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## Bikehaus (Mar 16, 2022)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> "at this point what difference does it make?"
> 
> I'd add a Schwinn badge to the bike then put the Shelby Badge on my Huffman-Monark-JC Higgins-Frankenbike, take the fenders off, add a brooks seat and ride it like a madman. 🙂



Because he wants his bike to look like it did when his brother rode it... who died two years later at the age of 16 in 1963.


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## bloo (Mar 16, 2022)

He wants it to look like 1961? 

Int that case, The hanlebars might of might not be original, but the style is right. Stem is fine, headset is fine, forks are fine but should have standard Schwinn darts on them (the short ones). Crank and chainwheel look fine. Pedals are newer than the bike, but a very similar style. You can probably get decals to replace the missing silkscreening if the flames will clean off the current paint job. I'm on the fence about whether it could be original paint or not. If it is original you might be able to see some ghosting of the model name on the chainguard under a bright light. Also look for the shadow of a tall checkerboard decal on the seat tube. Tiger had it, Speedster didn't.

Whats gotta go: 

The saddle. You need a color matching "S" saddle, it was probably the juvenile version with single springs and no rail. The original one probably had rivets in the side, but you will have an easier time finding one without rivets, and it looks real close. There is also one with "mattress" type construction that looks real close. 

The fenders. They need to be 1959-61(62?) Schwinn painted middleweight fenders in matching color (radiant red?). Earlier ones wont fit the frame and later ones are too narrow to look right. They should have white pinstripes and darts, one dart at the leading end of the front fender, and one dart at the trailing end of the rear fender.

The tires. Those are some Kendas that may have been the only thing available for S-7 rims at one point. I read in a CABE thread the other day that Schwinn even put their name on the Kendas once. Not in 1961 though. Original Schwinn "Westwind" tires in 1961 had brick tread. They were a little wider than the Kendas, and also much better looking. They may be available in reproduction. There are also newly made 26x2x1-3/4 "small brick" tires for S7 rims that are yet a little wider than the Schwinn originals. I'd get those. They look great. The tread is like original, they're just a little fatter. The bike probably came with blackwalls when new.


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## GTs58 (Mar 16, 2022)

Bikehaus said:


> Because he wants his bike to look like it did when his brother rode it... who died two years later at the age of 16 in 1963.




So someone modified this bicycle after the young original owner passed away, or did he do all this?

Here's the 1961 Catalog.


			Schwinn catalogs, 1961 - 1970
		


Here is @rollfaster 's 1961 Speedster.


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## Bikehaus (Mar 17, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> So someone modified this bicycle after the young original owner passed away, or did he do all this?
> 
> Here's the 1961 Catalog.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that is where it gets weird. He says he knows tge seat and badge are wrong, but that they bought it new from a local bike store then with this paint job and bobbed rear fender... im going to replace the seat and I'll use light on the chain guard. I just really wanted to answer the "what model is it" question


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## bloo (Mar 17, 2022)

Yeah, that's the trouble, There's no difference. You could make a Tiger or Speedster out of it with a decal set. Oh, and probably one of them had a light or something. Here's my 61 Speedster. Wrong pedals and seat, fenders missing, but other than that pretty much stock.


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## Jeff54 (Mar 17, 2022)

Bikehaus said:


> Yeah, that is where it gets weird. He says he knows tge seat and badge are wrong, but that they bought it new from a local bike store then with this paint job and bobbed rear fender... im going to replace the seat and I'll use light on the chain guard. I just really wanted to answer the "what model is it" question



I'd put money on the owner has long forgotten what happened here and if it has Schwinn marked tires; it's a white oval ink/paint made in late 70/80's, for Schwinn by Kenda (I have a set with Diamond tread) and would date when the bike was customized too.

All too often I've seen collectibles and family members find/found in flea markets or other; fakes, new and reproposed items where/ when whoever acquires it says: 'That is the exact thing they'd had as a kid, and all of family support the idea. Worse, they'll fight and argue that you're a con and trying to take advantage of em.  Not to say or be sure this owner did this because his mom or pops, uncle, aunt etc.  could have acquired it some time back. Otherwise, and no harm or intent meant here but owner has dementia.

Regardless, the color is not the right tint for Schwinn but, it is a very cool custom with moreover, all the right things done to it. If was my friend, I'd try to explain but, I wouldn't mess with his emotions and rather than pry hard, let the illusion stand. .

BTW FYI, it's not a Junior it's 26" While Girl's do not:  All  boy's 20 and 24"  frames have the same sized head post. And or easier to visualize, The Boy's Sting-Ray has the same head post as the 24" boy's bike and the forks are perfectly interchangeable. .


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## cyclonecoaster.com (Mar 18, 2022)

Bikehaus said:


> Yeah, that is where it gets weird. He says he knows tge seat and badge are wrong, but that they bought it new from a local bike store then with this paint job and bobbed rear fender... im going to replace the seat and I'll use light on the chain guard. I just really wanted to answer the "what model is it" question




*The bicycle has been modified .. maybe a trade in @ the local bike shop .. maybe a shop employees hot rod mod .. either way it's not a factory bike as it sits or a factory paint job .. just grease it up check tires tubes & ride it .. done & done ... Ridden not Hidden *


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## PlasticNerd (Mar 19, 2022)

I saw that at the swap last week! BTW. Thanks for having us up there! I still have that Prewar Schwinn Cantilever you were interested in, let me know 😀 I'm going to take the rear fender off and fix it, and that broken fender stay this weekend, Gary


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## vincev (Mar 19, 2022)

A true description of a frankinbike. Enjoy the ride ,it still looks good.


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## Bikehaus (Mar 23, 2022)

PlasticNerd said:


> I saw that at the swap last week! BTW. Thanks for having us up there! I still have that Prewar Schwinn Cantilever you were interested in, let me know 😀 I'm going to take the rear fender off and fix it, and that broken fender stay this weekend, Gary



Man, I really love that bike. I just can't pull the trigger on the price tag (not because it isn't fair... but because im just trying to keep myself outta debt! If it is meant yo be, I will circle back to tou when the time is right.


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## GTs58 (Jul 12, 2022)

What ever happened with this piece @Bikehaus ?  I just took another look at it, closer, and it does not look like it has S-7 rims. I mentioned earlier that the front hub was not used on the Corvettes, but didn't look at the rims. By the way, if those grips weren't the 2007? repops, then they are off an early post war bike and they were used into the 50's before the flush tear drop style took over. That should have the recessed tear drop grips with Schwinn Approved.


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## Jeff54 (Jul 12, 2022)

On occasion it can be difficult for me to make out S2 or S7 in photos but in this case, pretty easy. Those are s7 rims and since U brought it up again, I just noticed that the seat post clamp is not a 61 rather, it's older SA and heck it could be a repop too.

Otherwise, sorry to hurt your delicate feelings GT but, @bloo has pretty much nailed all the possibilities including the grips in most any photo are to difficult to say if old or repop and do not belong on a 1961.

The whole bike was a pretty decent custom job with parts from different models.  😉


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## Bikehaus (Jul 12, 2022)

Not much. Owner was just adamant that it was all original. I polished it up, put an accurate seat and badge on it and gave it back.


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## GTs58 (Jul 12, 2022)

Jeff54 said:


> On occasion it can be difficult for me to make out S2 or S7 in photos but in this case, pretty easy. Those are s7 rims and since U brought it up again, I just noticed that the seat post clamp is not a 61 rather, it's older SA and heck it could be a repop too.
> 
> Otherwise, sorry to hurt your delicate feelings GT but, @bloo has pretty much nailed all the possibilities including the grips in most any photo are to difficult to say if old or repop and do not belong on a 1961.
> 
> The whole bike was a pretty decent custom job with parts from different models.  😉




Yah, Bloo just about covered every middleweight in the book, but still no definite. And for the rims, if you looked at them I'm wondering how you came to the conclusion that those are S-7's? They sure look like a smooth top surface to me, most likely newer single wall rims from a middleweight JC Pennys bike. No knurling at all on either rim! Geeze. Hopefully that didn't hurt your delicate feelings, we all know you start running off but don't know where you are going. 😉  What's an SA clamp? That seat post clamp is correct.


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