# Serviceability of Spaceliner 2 speed kickback?



## skamatt23 (Feb 10, 2022)

Hello folks!

I seem to be hitting a few speed bumps getting my 1964 Spaceliner complete! I solve a few problems and find more trouble along the way.

Recently purchased a beautiful Bendix 2 speed kickback that is pretty gummy. Cosmetically awesome but needs service and will not shift out of first 

Are they serviceable with basic Park tools? My local bike shop is not willing to dive into a 60+ year old kickback so I once again turn to the knowledge base here for guidance.

I am pretty sure despite the minimal miles it has seen that the old grease inside is causing some serious problems. Low gear only and brakes.

Anyone local in CT or a few hours away?


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## rustjunkie (Feb 10, 2022)

service instructions in vol 1









						Schwinn Service Manual Volume 1 & 2 | Bicycle Restoration Tips
					

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/schwinn-service-manual-volume-1.81415/  http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/schwinn-service-manual-volume-2.81579/




					thecabe.com


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## PCHiggin (Feb 10, 2022)

You’ll need the  lock nut tool. Everything else easy once its apart. One on ebay now for $30. Search bendix kick back hub


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## bloo (Feb 10, 2022)

Most of them just need cleaning out good and relubricating. Yes, you'll need to buy one tool. They aren't very expensive. Disassemble over a pan, there are some loose balls.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 10, 2022)

Thank you guys for the blueprints and service pictures. No problem purchasing the tool but man even for a handy guy this looks very complicated.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 10, 2022)

rustjunkie said:


> service instructions in vol 1
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks! Never thought to look for this


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## bloo (Feb 10, 2022)

Have you serviced a coaster brake before?

It's basically like 2 coaster brakes. stacked. 2 drive clutches, 2 retarder springs, but only one brake. There is also a rather delicate "indexing spring" (see exploded view above) that can be bad, but it's probably ok.

When I last had mine apart, I was watching the indexing spring shift with some of the other parts in my hand. When you turn the sprocket backwards, the spring has a part that drops into a notch every other time. In the notch for one gear, out for the other.

Dont use super heavy grease. Grease the bearings. If it is a red band unit, use only oil on the brake discs, or the brakes will probably be too draggy. Other versions use brake shoes and probably use grease on the shoes. Grease or oil other parts (I'd probably go with whatever that Schwinn manual says), but you don't want any thick draggy grease around that indexing spring. That's probably why it wont shift now.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

Thanks!
Should I assume I am not going to have to go deep into disassembly other than removing the casing? It's a red band so I'll try to focus on oiling that index. There is a good video on YouTube showing how the brake stack works and how the low and high engage with just the housing off so I will see if I can engage that and oil. Is Park grease too thick?


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

I also think those races on either end are the reason why it spins poorly or with drag so I think I have a few problems.
Is brake cleaner ok for degreaser?


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

I need to make sure the high speed clutch is engaged when I kickback and then go forward. The inner spiral may just not be letting the low speed disengage and the high speed slide to the right in the picture. Fascinating little thing


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## PCHiggin (Feb 11, 2022)

Make sure your index spring is ok. They can be fixed if the tabs are worn.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

Will do.
Just going to take my time this weekend and disassemble. Never had a kickback NOT want to at least shift or to have such a gummed up rotation.


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## nightrider (Feb 11, 2022)

You can make your own tool out if a deep socket. Good thing it's stuck in low gear. Will make disassembly much easier. Good luck!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Feb 11, 2022)

skamatt23 said:


> I also think those races on either end are the reason why it spins poorly or with drag so I think I have a few problems.
> Is brake cleaner ok for degreaser?



It is one of the best,dangerous use well ventilated. If you use the CRC look for the red label it is the good stuff. I could not find it last time i looked. I mostly use Kerosene it is cheap and not flamable like brake cleaner. I sometimes drop a complete hub in it to loosen up if it is locked up


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## bloo (Feb 11, 2022)

i"d disassemble and clean it, although that looks a lot cleaner than I expected. It's a red band (because it has brake discs). Thats a different section in the Schwinn manual. It's that little spring with the tiny little tabs where the magic happens. You should be able to watch it. Every other time it drops into a slot. That is what determines which clutch will engage. If it has any of the tiny tabs broken you'll need a new one. It happens, but not usually.

Notice each clutch has a retarder spring, like the retarder spring in a coaster brake. It's like 2 coaster brakes. Each retarder spring should have a tab on it that engages some other part. The retarder spring is meant to drag on the part it is wrapped around, not drag a lot, but some. Make sure neither have the tab broke off.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

The picture is a YouTube screenshot I took not my hub taken apart. Waiting on the Bendix tool from eBay


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## Rusty Klunker (Feb 11, 2022)

skamatt23 said:


> View attachment 1568063
> 
> I need to make sure the high speed clutch is engaged when I kickback and then go forward. The inner spiral may just not be letting the low speed disengage and the high speed slide to the right in the picture. Fascinating little thing




Its not the inner spiral.... All those parts you see are stuck in a glue/tar that used to be grease. The spiral your talking about turns and works but the parts don't move, they're stuck to the shell. I've had many this way some I couldn't get apart. It'll either come apart easily or you'll have to soak it. Don't try and force it apart, you will break a spring.
There is a company reproducing the yellow and blue bands and the lock nut tool. The tool is like $6.00 if you did get one yet. Looks like the original but I have no idea how good the metal is.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

Thanks for the heads up I grabbed the eBay one. Fingers crossed 🤞


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## Rusty Klunker (Feb 11, 2022)

The eBay one works fine. I don't know if he cleaned out a shop or a factory or had them reproduced but hes been selling them for years.. and think hes sold 100's of them.

You might like this too. Save it, print it out get it grease throw it away. Print another the next time.


			https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sutherland/CB-IGH-3-bendix.pdf


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## PCHiggin (Feb 11, 2022)

BTW, The manual shows removing retarder springs,dont bother, just clean everything. I use laquer thinner


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

It my first coaster teardown so thanks for the extra diagrams!


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

When I get the housing off it's nice that I can test the hub in my hands for function, spray it down with the appropriate cleaner and see if it fixes it. I'd be surprised if anything is broken or out of place but the main bearings feel like they have straight weight oil I used to use on my old 1947 Plymouth...during the winter lol. The only thing thicker has to be the differential oil I use in my rc cars. 100k weight!


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## bloo (Feb 11, 2022)

I would take it apart a little further rather than just spraying it off. You don't have to tear it down to the last tiny part like the Schwinn manual usually shows (they had to cover EVERYTHING). You should try to be sure everything is clean, and there is new lubrication on everything that moves. Draggy old scummy grease all has to go. I would get lubrication of some kind under the retarder springs even if you don't take them off. I don't remember that particulars for this hub, but you can probably just turn them like a spinning wheel would turn them. The planetary gears would no doubt like some fresh light grease or oil. Also there are loose balls in there between the two clutch drives, big ones like 1/4" or so, so not impossible to deal with, but disassemble it over a pan. Use grease to hold them in place while you reassemble.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

Good plan!


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## J-wagon (Feb 11, 2022)

Rusty Klunker said:


> You might like this too. Save it, print it out get it grease throw it away. Print another the next time.
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sutherland/CB-IGH-3-bendix.pdf



I just noticed Sheldon brown footnote on substitute for locknut tool says "A serviceable substitute can be fashioned from a spark plug by chipping out the center electrode and cutting back the side electrode so that the stub engages locknut slots." 

Just curious anyone use spark plug to remove locknut?


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## skamatt23 (Feb 11, 2022)

Whaaaaat that's awesome


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## Rusty Klunker (Feb 11, 2022)

skamatt23 said:


> It my first coaster teardown so thanks for the extra diagrams!



Its not just diagrams, scroll down they tell you how to take it apart lube and put back together. I like it a little better then schwinns description.


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## Rusty Klunker (Feb 11, 2022)

J-wagon said:


> I just noticed Sheldon brown footnote on substitute for locknut tool says "A serviceable substitute can be fashioned from a spark plug by chipping out the center electrode and cutting back the side electrode so that the stub engages locknut slots."
> 
> Just curious anyone use spark plug to remove locknut?



I had made one from a 3/8 rod coupling. It worked but when you have one that's really stuck the right tool helps. Its tapered to match the nut and has more area to bite. The ones from eagle for $6?? They look like the originals.


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## J-wagon (Feb 15, 2022)

Today I disassembled untested gummy bendix redband kickback, fairly straightforward. The loose balls sticky gummed up so no worry about spilling out. One loose ball was damaged, replaced with spare ¼" ball. Wd40 loosened things up pretty well. Small flathead to loosen up dried up grease crust 





Basic components. I didn't bother break down to the granular level. This is after brush and wipe with wd40. Good luck!


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## skamatt23 (Feb 15, 2022)

My tool for the Bendix just arrived! May jump I to this on the four day weekend but dying to fix it up. Thanks for the WD40 tip!


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## rustjunkie (Feb 15, 2022)

J-wagon said:


> I just noticed Sheldon brown footnote on substitute for locknut tool says "A serviceable substitute can be fashioned from a spark plug by chipping out the center electrode and cutting back the side electrode so that the stub engages locknut slots."
> 
> Just curious anyone use spark plug to remove locknut?




i've made them out of an 80 cent turnbuckle nut


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

Well I feel like I've failed here. I can't explain how since I purchased this 95% restored Spaceliner that I would have so many headaches.

I took my time, figured out all the disassembly, cleaned well, lubed up, left the brake discs but did a good job freeing them up.

Then came the reassembly...

It took me a dozen tries to get the brake side on to the right assembly with the low speed clutch spiral thing etc.  Clutch plates and the clip lines up. After 2 hours of struggling I have it back to together but it still isn't working properly.

Nothing is broken as far as I can see and after spending so much time doing this, looking at it put together but outside of the housing, I am confident I put it together correct in the end.

I cant seem to get the engagement correct assuming the inside is as it should be. The cone adjustment and the Bendix tool inner piece seem to be hit or miss with tension and kicking back makes the assembly want to sort of disassemble.

I am at the point where I need to walk away for a second and calm down.  Never struggled with a hub before like this.  I have read and reread the Schwinn/Brown pictures a dozen times.

What is especially frustrating is I am literally a minute of assembly away from this being a success but it is still not working.  After buying this, paying for the wheel to be built with new sized spokes, the money i spent on getting my front fork straight I am just ready to throw this restored Spaceliner in the nearest dumpster.  I'm a competent mechanic and this bike is kicking my ass around every turn it seems.

I really don't want to ship this but is there anyone even a few hours away that can help me out? I'm at the end of my patience at this point with this thing.  I just don't have the experience fixing this further. I can drive as well to meet up.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

See below...


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

OK I think I know what happened.  I bought a bad hub with unfortunately a bad indexing spring.






In this super helpful series of 4 videos I found on YT my indexing spring is missing the inner small indexing spring tabs.  The more vertical pieces closer to the edge are intact.  Around the 2:25 mark you see good detail on the spring and after looking at mine...all three are worn down or missing.  Sucks because I had a wheel built around a bad hub and now I have to start from scratch or find someone who has an indexing spring WHAT A DAMN HEADACHE.  It explains why even though it was super gummed up all i had was low gear.

Now what should I do?  Hassle with finding a spring and then tossing it on assuming i can even find one or find a hub that work all over again?

Part of me is upset at myself I bought a hub here that didn't work but was too gummed up to even test regardless and part of me feels like another working spring is a needle in a hay stack and when all is said and done I'm not confident in my ability to put it together properly.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

Whelp...guess I am spending $40 on a reproduction spring on ebay.  Worth a shot


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## J-wagon (Feb 18, 2022)

Sounds very exasperation but glad issue identified. If I had donor I would offer up. Hope it finally works!


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

At this point I've spent so much I just want it to work. The only variable is maybe the low speed springs but I'm just tossing money at this until it sticks.


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## bloo (Feb 18, 2022)

Sorry it turned out that way, but I don't know what you could have done differently. You are gambling a bit buying one of these hubs. All of them are gummed up. If your indexing tabs are gone, that is indeed the problem. The indexing springs do fail, and to be fair were probably the most common part failure in the hub way back when.

However, back in the day, like now, it was much more common to just be a problem with old crappy grease than a failed spring. As you can see the spring is delicate and the spring pressures at play are quite small. Any gummy old crud in there will cause it to malfunction.

I mean I guess you probably could have bought one that was advertised to be "working", but I imagine that costs more and then you still would have had to tear it down anyway to clean it out before you could have any expectation it might be reliable.

As you saw in that video, you can test indexing in your hand to verify it works before you put it together. It's not a "bad hub" because the spring is bad. Yes you should chase down a spring. I know it is Inconvenient and expensive. 

As for the other low speed spring you mentioned, or the high speed spring for that matter, those just work like the retarder spring on any other coaster brake. They are tabbed into something solid and drag on something that turns. Only a small drag is needed. You should be able to figure out how to look for broken tabs and and test those out of the hub too if you are worried about it.

Best of luck going forward.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

No I know. I'm learning and cleaning up a hub was an experience but I should have expected this to happen.

Sorry I vented a bit.

I took the bad spring and put it back together/installed to just grab one gear which is fine for the moment. I was able to bend two of the three worn prongs to get minimal indexing but still no consistent changes. It worked for a moment on my stand but the hub tension seemed to change or lock up and I lost it. I'm not getting it to return after a kickback so I hope the new spring will somehow fix that. 

With the new spring installed I'll try to duplicate the video and see if it works.


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## Rusty Klunker (Feb 18, 2022)

Sounds like you have it back together but I was going to say post a picture of the spring. If I'm reading it right you're saying the fingers that are bent inward are missing tabs. There are no tabs on the inner bent fingers, they're just arced in and fall into the pockets of the tin piece on the sprocket.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

This video in the 12 o'clock position shows a pronounced turn in at the end. All of mine are completely gone and I see paint missing at what is left on mine meaning they had to be worn. The two fingers I bent in after the fact made the proper clicking noise that it didn't make before so I am confident that it should have the above protrusion.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

Here is what I know so far and have been able to deduce.
Hub arrived gummed to the max with only one gear.
I cleaned it up, not gummy any more but I still have no high gear. 
There was nothing stopping this spring from working so I have to assume it was worn/broken off before I had the wheel built.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

Notice that little kickup up top


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## Rusty Klunker (Feb 18, 2022)

And why I wanted a picture. When you said the inner fingers I was thinking you meant the fingers bent inward. They're just straight. The fingers you are talking about should a little kick to them but I've had them work fine without them as long they engage the clutch. You can tweek them a little just be gentle. But if you're missing one of the fingers completely I'd say you need a spring. I've never seen one missing a finger.
Just don't want you to keep throwing money at it.


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

It's all good. You are all better versed at these components than I am so I tossed up the pictures.
Just having a rough go finishing this bike up. Previous owner did an amazing cosmetic job and I want to finish it the way it deserves.
Just had a helpless moment as all my local shops that could help have dried up in the last 2 years. CABE has been amazing but sometimes you have to hand something to more of a professional. It's all good I will see this through but I'm not 100% this is the only thing wrong at this point. It's broke lol so either way the hub is better today than it was yesterday lol 😅


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## skamatt23 (Feb 18, 2022)

I bought the spring and it shipped so I figured I had nothing to lose trying to tweak the broken part. One snapped and the others I was able to push significantly just to see if there was a difference.


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## Nashman (Mar 5, 2022)

skamatt23 said:


> Thank you guys for the blueprints and service pictures. No problem purchasing the tool but man even for a handy guy this looks very complicated.
> View attachment 1567954
> 
> View attachment 1567955
> ...



I agree, that looks pretty scary. Patience, eyesite, correct tools, patience....did I mention "patience"?


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