# Factory black Stingray ?



## coasterbrakejunkie1969

I'm starting this thread to gain information about black Stingray's. It has been claimed that some of the bikes shown were in fact painted in the Schwinn factory. I wondered if anyone has any real documentation of these bikes? I posed the question that perhaps they were painted by another party before being dressed at the dealer with components that all dealers would have had access to. Seems very likely because the paint and process were not used only by Schwinn. I do not want to see an old Ebay posting telling me story about the bike someone is auctioning off. I need something more then that, anything more. I believe these bikes to be legit but I need more proof then just pictures. Thanks


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## Xlobsterman

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I'm starting this thread to gain information about black Stingray's. It has been claimed that some of the bikes shown were in fact painted in the Schwinn factory. I wondered if anyone has any real documentation of these bikes? I posed the question that perhaps they were painted by another party before being dressed at the dealer with components that all dealers would have had access to. Seems very likely because the paint and process were not used only by Schwinn. I do not want to see an old Ebay posting telling me story about the bike someone is auctioning off. I need something more then that, anything more. I believe these bikes to be legit but I need more proof then just pictures. Thanks




I saw another post on this topic that was locked? I am not sure why the posts trying to ascertain the authenticity of certain bikes keep getting locked? Isn't that defeating the purpose of having these discussions?

The black Sting-Ray that was recently being discussed is a beautiful bike, there is no disputing that! But there is a question as to the authenticity of the bike being "Factory Built"? From my previous experience working at a Schwinn dealer is that Schwinn was very good at keeping their dealers in the loop on certain things like this with service bulletins, or in their monthly news letter. So if it happened, then there is a record of it somewhere!!!!

The biggest red flag for me in respect to the recent bike in question was the bicycle license that was put under the saddle! This would have never happened, because the license was to identify the bike if it was ever lost or stolen, then recovered by law enforcement. This sticker was ALWAYS put on the frames, and never under the saddle. (saddles can be easily swapped out) Also, this license is traceable, and a simple inquiry to the proper enforcement authority can confirm the registered owner of the bike at the time it was registered. This would help with identifying the original owner, but not as to the authenticity of the bike being factory built.

As for the STORY behind the bike in question, and the email presented are nothing without any dealer documentation. A story is just a story, and is not PROOF something happened or existed!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Yes I too thought the site was about sharing information with an open dialog. If someone wants to post a bike with no discussion then do not reply to the questions no need to get aggressive and insulting.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Xlobsterman said:


> e bicycle license that was put under the saddle!




I wondered about that. I have never lived in an area where you needed to register your bike. I imagine the tag would have to be in a spot where it could be easily seen not under the seat pan. The fact that a sticker under a seat is being used as an example of authenticity is baffling. Any competent collector would would realize how weak of an argument that is.


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## Xlobsterman

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I wondered about that. I have never lived in an area where you needed to register your bike. I imagine the tag would have to be in a spot where it could be easily seen not under the seat pan. The fact that a sticker under a seat is being used as an example of authenticity is baffling. Any competent collector would would realize how weak of an argument that is.




Bike licenses were not required, they were just used as a way to register the bike, then track the owners in case the bike was ever recovered by law enforcement after being lost or stolen.

The KLUNKER 5 that came from my shop that I acquired on Ebay has its original California Bike license still attached to the frame on the seat tube.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Some municipalities do require that all bikes are registered.


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## Xlobsterman

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Some municipalities do require that all bikes are registered.




Maybe so. But from what I remember in California at the time it was just recommended as a tool to help law enforcement trace the RO if the bike was ever recovered by them.


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## Xlobsterman

Here is a 66 that allegedly has original black paint on it for $395












						Login
					

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					www.schwinnbikeforum.com


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## Schwinny

Not my wheelhouse but I would question that stingray above as being an original paint 66'
If it looks that good and was obviously so well taken care of or not used at all, why does it need a new chain?
That proud of the originality of your bike and you put on a new chain? That chain is too bright to be original. Even a perfectly stripped and cleaned vintage chain will never shine like that.
Etc......
Easier to prove would be a black Stingray that isn't claimed to be the rarest of all, AND in perfect condition.
That stands just to the left of Impossible. And by the time most people get to 50yo., "If it seems too good to be true, it isn't" is more of a way of life than a conundrum.

All that said... I think I've seen an old beat up black stingray. But when and where may never appear in my head again.


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## stoney

The above bike was listed on Ebay as originally being a '66 Typhoon with touchups and dressed to look like a Stingray. The owner/seller stated that in the Ebay listing. I also believe it was for sale here on The CABE.


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## stoney

I sure as hell don't know everything but I would wonder why Schwinn would have some other party paint black Stingrays for them when they had painted black bikes for decades.


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## stoney

I have been into these bikes as well as other antique/classic bikes since 1985. Until about 3 years ago I never knew there was the possibility of original Black Schwinn Stingrays. This would all be a learning thing for me.


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## Xlobsterman

stoney said:


> I sure as hell don't know everything but I would wonder why Schwinn would have some other party paint black Stingrays for them when they had painted black bikes for decades. happened for bikes like this.




IMO, it is highly unlikely that Schwinn outsourced any painting of their bikes during this era!


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## Xlobsterman

stoney said:


> I have been into these bikes as well as other antique/classic bikes since 1985. Until about 3 years ago I never knew there was the possibility of original Black Schwinn Stingrays. This would all a learning thing for me.




Anything is possible, but without any type of tangible documentation issued by Schwinn, I would not put 100% belief in it as being true!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

stoney said:


> This would all a learning thing for me.




That is exactly why I started this thread. It Seems to be a tight lipped club though. Silence speaks  volumes.


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## kostnerave

Xlobsterman said:


> Here is a 66 that allegedly has original black paint on it for $395
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> View attachment 1511638
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This is a repaint, the reprouction fork dart decals tell the story.


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## GTs58

kostnerave said:


> This is a repaint, the reprouction fork dart decals tell the story.




And so does the straight top tube decal that was used on down tubes.


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## Xlobsterman

kostnerave said:


> This is a repaint, the reprouction fork dart decals tell the story.




The ad in the link I posted did state the chain guard and fork were repainted. But nowhere in that ad did he state it was a Typhoon frame.

Here is a copy of that ad if some of you can not see it?


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## Schwinny

playin' post office....


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## GTs58

It's been noted that these Black Sting Rays originated from a specific area. Is there any info that a dealer might have that stipulates that Schwinn would build a model in a color that was it was not offered in, "if they ordered a large specific quantity" of those? I would think that would be very plausible and most likely what happened here. But over the years I've only seen a few of these but don't recall ever seeing a Shop's original sticker on the frame. Wouldn't a dealer slap his shop sticker on all these?


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## 60sstuff

GTs58 said:


> It's been noted that these Black Sting Rays originated from a specific area. Is there any info that a dealer might have that stipulates that Schwinn would build a model in a color that was it was not offered in, "if they ordered a large specific quantity" of those? I would think that would be very plausible and most likely what happened here. But over the years I've only seen a few of these but don't recall ever seeing a Shop's original sticker on the frame. Wouldn't a dealer slap his shop sticker on all these?



Some did.

Excuse me for chiming in as I just want to address GTs58.

I used to copy many Schwinn Stingray auctions back in the day for research reasons and I still have this one.

This Black Stingray was another March bike (CA20338 = March 8, 1965) and sold for $640.00 in Jan. 2005.

Here’s the water slide decal from Oklahoma City.


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## Xlobsterman

60sstuff said:


> Some did.
> 
> Excuse me for chiming in as I just want to address GTs58.
> 
> I used to copy many Schwinn Stingray auctions back in the day for research reasons and I still have this one.
> 
> This Black Stingray was another March bike (CA20338 = March 8, 1965) and sold for $640.00 in Jan. 2005.
> 
> Here’s the water slide decal from Oklahoma City.
> 
> View attachment 1511741
> 
> View attachment 1511742




Pretty crappy pics, and you can't see much detail from them. And once again, lots of speculation from the seller in the ad.


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## GTs58

Xlobsterman said:


> Pretty crappy pics, and you can't see much detail from them. And once again, lots of speculation from the seller in the ad.




I didn't notice any speculation by that seller. What did he speculate? Seems he was saying he had no idea as to why.

@60sstuff , would @vastingray have any information on these?


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## Xlobsterman

GTs58 said:


> I didn't notice any speculation by that seller. What did he speculate? Seems he was saying he had no idea as to why.
> 
> @60sstuff , would @vastingray have any information on these?




Please do not direct any posts towards me for any response, now, or in the future since you told me to STFU in a previous message thread!


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## GTs58

Xlobsterman said:


> Please do not direct any posts towards me for any response, now, or in the future since you told me to STFU in a previous message thread!
> 
> View attachment 1511764





Please read that documentation that you so kindly supplied. No where did I "tell" you to STFU. Comprehension seems to be lacking here.


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## Freqman1

I see another thread about to be locked!


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## koolbikes

My take on these Black Sting-ray's is that sure, they weren't produced for the masses or included in the catalog but, Schwinn bicycle shops and distributors could have these made in small ordered amounts from the factory. That is how thing were done back then. 1963 -'64 was the beginning of the Sting-ray era and they were still trying to figure out what was going to "SELL", they needed standout colors and Black was not on top of the list then.
I personally have seen many original Schwinn bicycles that are one-off or factory produced such as the early Red 5 speed Corvette, the Green 5 speed 1968 Mini-twinn, the 1962 Coppertone 5-speed Corvette and yes, even the original Schwinn Grape Krate that is at the Bicycle Museum of America in New Bremen, OH. There might not be any documentation to back the originality of these pieces but they do exist. They are only original once and you can't reproduce that!
That's my opinion and your entitled to yours.


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## Xlobsterman

koolbikes said:


> My take on these Black Sting-ray's is that sure, they weren't produced for the masses or included in the catalog but, Schwinn bicycle shops and distributors could have these made in small ordered amounts from the factory. That is how thing were done back then. 1963 -'64 was the beginning of the Sting-ray era and they were still trying to figure out what was going to "SELL", they needed standout colors and Black was not on top of the list then.
> I personally have seen many original Schwinn bicycles that are one-off or factory produced such as the early Red 5 speed Corvette, the Green 5 speed 1968 Mini-twinn, the 1962 Coppertone 5-speed Corvette and yes, even the original Schwinn Grape Krate that is at the Bicycle Museum of America in New Bremen, OH. There might not be any documentation to back the originality of these pieces but they do exist. They are only original once and you can't reproduce that!
> That's my opinion and your entitled to yours.




YES, we all have our opinions on topics like this. But it would be nice to actually find documentation from Schwinn to confirm the authenticity of such bikes existing. We can share our opinions all day long, but in the end, opinions are not proof. And unfortunately there are probably more fakes out there made from black Typhoon frames, and if it wasn't for the fake bikes out there, then it would be easier to believe the possibility of factory built black Sting-Rays? Maybe some day some old dealer documentation will surface that will confirm this as fact?


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Well now 24 hours this post has been up with lots of action. Crickets from black Stingray owners as to any real proof. Just to set the record straight I have believe some of the bikes I have seen to be real. Lets be serious Schwinn was making black Typhoons in '65 so the idea I proposed of them being painted elsewhere is like @stoney said very  unlikely. I would point out that @60sstuff  did chime in to address a question by @GTs58  but no one else.  I understand that every time one of these bikes comes up some members refuse to accept what it is being claimed to be. Not me, I asked a simple question and was met with a not my responsibility to prove anything to you attitude. I'm sorry the poster admitted they were on the look out for the haters because they are always out there. If you have had to deal with this before then do us all a favor and use all that research you have done to come up with something better then just some stickers and  hear say. Some of us on the site  want to expand our knowledge and enjoy passing on what we know. I enjoy history, the history of the houses I remodel , the food I eat ,the places I go and the bikes I ride. If you are not into passing knowledge on and just want to share pics of you collection, that is great there is a lot to learn from that as well. If so post your pics and lock it no comments at all.  I was told long ago do not leave the door open if you do not want someone to walk in, especially if you know they are on their way.


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## sworley

Here are a few other examples/items to read: https://www.ebay.com/itm/114362324328?campid=5335809022









						1965 black schwinn stingray deluxe | Schwinn Stingrays and Other Muscle Bikes
					

well I thought the people of the cabe  should see an original untouch  1965 black stingray




					thecabe.com
				












						Cheesehead BLACK Sting Rays | Schwinn Stingrays and Other Muscle Bikes
					

Cheesehead Black Sting Rays  -  Recently spent a beautiful afternoon here in SE Wisconsin w/ couple local buds , snappin a few pics of our original black Sting Rays.  The (5) range from a March '65 to a March '67 two spd.  All have original paint w/ original screens.  A few still have the...




					thecabe.com


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## kostnerave

It could be useful if everyone who owns a black Sting-ray record their serial numbers to create a database. Most of the bikes that do turn up seem to be from the midwest region, so perhaps some research of the Schwinn shops in north Texas, Oklahoma, etc. may unearth some clues. The fact that a one off Opaque Blue Fastback turned up some time ago, and was authenticated by Al Fritz, tells me that these black Sting-rays are most likely real.  I believe that it was a small run, done as a test market, that didn't pan out. If I was a kid picking out a brand new Sting-ray in 1965, with color choices like Radiant Coppertone, Flamboyant Lime and Sky Blue, do you think I'm picking black? Probably not! All that aside, let's find some proof. Does anybody have a Schwinn Reporter article, a receipt, paperwork, work order sheets, etc.? Maybe the Bicycle Museum of America has something in their archives. It's just a thought.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Here is where I pose the same question I have before, how do you explain 3 years of production and no mention of them anywhere? I know
Schwinn did some wonky stuff but that seems like too large of a gap to me without proof. I buy @Baldy Jeff and @60sstuff  have real '65s but what about the other years? Any ideas? Otherwise I will have a black '68 by next spring.


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## Xlobsterman

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Here is where I pose the same question I have before, how do you explain 3 years of production and no mention of them anywhere? I know
> Schwinn did some wonky stuff but that seems like too large of a gap to me without proof.




I would have to agree with you on that one!


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## Xlobsterman

Here is one that recently sold on Ebay - Read the sellers description in the ad.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255133356704?campid=5335809022


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Crickets......


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Moving on,I believe the '65s  to be real. I'm not buying the later bikes at this point. Do any lurking guests have a black Stingray? I know this has been hashed out numerous times before but that would make me think it would have been figured out one way or the other. My guess is the scale always tips towards *NOPE*.


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## mrg

Ok, I believe some if not most of these Blk SR's are OG ( always going to be some scammers! ) but knowing things Schwinn did over the yrs I can see there might not be any permanent records unless you can find paper orders or internal memo's, after all it was a huge co. and these were just F***ing toys! with no idea people would be picking apart minuscule details 50+ yrs later. went thru the same thing twice before. In the 80's found my first dbl rear fender bridge 53/4 Jaguar and everyone said no way ( I originally thought it was added for a Klunker hand brake ) till I found # 2 and then met some original workers at some event back east and they told me the story ( I posted it here yrs ago ) and now there is a bunch, it happened again when I came up with a OG 80 Lime Cruiser ( later a white & silver also ) alot of people said no way, Schwinn never did that. well one day looking at a unrelated BMX thread with a page from a 80's parts catalog posted by a guy in New Zealand that had cruiser frames in 7 colors including those 3, so i'm sure there will be more Schwinn anomalies that will through everyone into a tizzy, I'm still looking for those Violet & Coppertone 54 Jaguars that are listed in the catalog😜, at least they cant fake that frame being a heavy weight hand brake frame that no other model used! Ok veered far enough off topic!


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## Xlobsterman

mrg said:


> Ok, I believe some if not most of these Blk SR's are OG ( always going to be some scammers! ) but knowing things Schwinn did over the yrs I can see there might not be any permanent records unless you can find paper orders or internal memo's, after all it was a huge co. and these were just F***ing toys! with no idea people would be picking apart minuscule details 50+ yrs later. went thru the same thing twice before. In the 80's found my first dbl rear fender bridge 53/4 Jaguar and everyone said no way ( I originally thought it was added for a Klunker hand brake ) till I found # 2 and then met some original workers at some event back east and they told me the story ( I posted it here yrs ago ) and now there is a bunch, it happened again when I came up with a OG 80 Lime Cruiser ( later a white & silver also ) alot of people said no way, Schwinn never did that. well one day looking at a unrelated BMX thread with a page from a 80's parts catalog posted by a guy in New Zealand that had cruiser frames in 7 colors including those 3, so i'm sure there will be more Schwinn anomalies that will through everyone into a tizzy, I'm still looking for those Violet & Coppertone 54 Jaguars that are listed in the catalog😜, at least they cant fake that frame being a heavy weight hand brake frame that no other model used! Ok veered far enough off topic!




Personally, I believe if Schwinn did something, then there is a record of it somewhere? It's really hard for me to believe that these bikes were built at the factory, then sent to dealers, then sold to consumers with out any record of it somewhere?

Just take a look at the Sting-Ray ad I previously posted from Jan. of 65 where they boast their "National Advertising with Promotional Materials" for the Sting-Ray during 65. I believe if they had issued a Sting-Ray in black, then it would have been announced to the dealers somewhere along the line, especially if they were sold over a period of 3 years as some claim!

Also, it seems a bit unlikely that they would offer black as a color on a bike marketed to kids in 65? That is unless there was a deep underground of GOTH kids back then....................LOL


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## mrg

There is probably some paperwork in a box, in a abandoned warehouse somewhere!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

In 1965 they made a black 20 inch Typhoon easily converted into a Stingray. In 1966 they did not have another 20 inch black model with the longer frame ,the Typhoon was still a shorty.  That would jive with only  the '65s being legit.


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## Vicious Cycle

Slightly off topic, I have a 1962 Paramount Women's, racing model, in Terra Cotta, 100% untouched, according to the '62 catalog a women's model was not available that year. I also have two Women's Paramount's that were full Dura ace from the factory, you won't find that option in any catalog either. Likewise I have never seen the 1955 Schwinn Triplet Town and Country in any Catalog, but, there is one sitting in my shop and I have seen several others. Obsessing about documentation is for armchair quarterbacks, IMHO.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Vicious Cycle said:


> Obsessing about documentation is for armchair quarterbacks



I have built or re built every bike I have with my own 2 hands. I ride every bike I own often. I enjoy being informed as much as anything.  Pictures are a dime a dozen I'm looking for something more in this case.  This is an internet site everyone is an armchair quarterback.


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## tacochris

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I have built or re built every bike I have with my own 2 hands. I ride every bike I own often. I enjoy being informed as much as anything.  Pictures are a dime a dozen I'm looking for something more in this case.  This is an internet site everyone is an armchair quarterback.



I am obsessed with history and do all the same stuff you're doing now....most of the time I just dont ask people so I dont muddy the waters of the investigation.


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## fatbike

Xlobsterman said:


> Here is a 66 that allegedly has original black paint on it for $395
> 
> View attachment 1511638
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> 
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> 
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> 
> Login
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> Login
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> www.schwinnbikeforum.com



I'm pretty certain I remember this post saying that it was repainted black right here on the cabe.


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## GTs58

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I have built or re built every bike I have with my own 2 hands. I ride every bike I own often. I enjoy being informed as much as anything.  Pictures are a dime a dozen I'm looking for something more in this case.  This is an internet site everyone is an armchair quarterback.




In a situation such as this I highly doubt that there were any publications from Schwinn saying they offered or even made a Sting Ray in Black. If it was a special order from a few Dealers that Schwinn agreed to or an order made by Schwinn's Sales Manager, then nothing was ever made public. The only paperwork generated would be the paperwork for the order and then the invoice for payment. So if you want paperwork to prove the fact that Schwinn produced these Black Sting Rays you'll have to contact the Dealers that sold them or the Sales Rep or the person that APPROVED the order. You most likely won't find any other paperwork printed by Schwinn. The only paperwork generated would be the order sheet and the invoices so here we have COPO Schwinn Sting Rays!


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## Coyote

GTs58 said:


> The only paperwork generated would be the order sheet and the invoices




THIS
You would need some internal documentation or the word of Al Fritz or John Q. Paintbooth as to any true/false determination.
I can't imagine that Schwinn would put such details in the Bulletin, that would lead to California or New England dealers whining
"why didn't we get the different bikes?"
The "most likely" scenario would be Schwinn wanted to test the market for such a bike and did so in a limited run.
As noted earlier, they made other Black bike styles so it would not be too hard to run 100 Stingrays down that aisle one day.
Of course, this is all SPECULATION.....


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## Xlobsterman

Vicious Cycle said:


> Slightly off topic, I have a 1962 Paramount Women's, racing model, in Terra Cotta, 100% untouched, according to the '62 catalog a women's model was not available that year. I also have two Women's Paramount's that were full Dura ace from the factory, you won't find that option in any catalog either. Likewise I have never seen the 1955 Schwinn Triplet Town and Country in any Catalog, but, there is one sitting in my shop and I have seen several others. Obsessing about documentation is for armchair quarterbacks, IMHO.




There is a big difference in comparing the top of the line Paramount to Sting-Ray. The Paramount was advertised as being fully customizable to the specific buyers needs, and/or wants, the Sting-Ray was not.

Anyhow, we can all make the choice to believe what we want as it relates to certain bikes like the Black Sting-Ray. But for me being the sceptic that I am, I will hold out for documentation to give concrete proof of something before I go all in on a bike like this.


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## Xlobsterman

Coyote said:


> THIS
> You would need some internal documentation or the word of Al Fritz or John Q. Paintbooth as to any true/false determination.
> I can't imagine that Schwinn would put such details in the Bulletin, that would lead to California or New England dealers whining
> "why didn't we get the different bikes?"
> The "most likely" scenario would be Schwinn wanted to test the market for such a bike and did so in a limited run.
> As noted earlier, they made other Black bike styles so it would not be too hard to run 100 Stingrays down that aisle one day.
> Of course, this is all SPECULATION.....




Here is 12,500 reasons why you shouldn't "SPECULATE" on bikes like this...........LOL









						1965 Schwinn J39 Deluxe Sting-Ray Original Unrestored Black Survivor Bike  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 1965 Schwinn J39 Deluxe Sting-Ray Original Unrestored Black Survivor Bike at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Coyote said:


> hey made other Black bike styles so it would not be too hard to run 100 Stingrays down that aisle one day.



Yes this is my point about the '65s. But that does not explain the later bikes. They would have had to paint the frames especially for these bikes. Again something that would not be difficult for Schwinn to do. But  a 3 year run of test bikes does not make sense. If they did not find a need for them in '65 why would they try again 2 more times. I understand  Schwinn often did things that didn't make sense.



tacochris said:


> most of the time I just dont ask people so I dont muddy the waters of the investigation.



I get that , I often ask too many questions. It was seeming to me that the individual who prompted this thread had done a bit of research. I do not want to be clueless so I asked some questions. If he had any information he is keeping it close to the vest. I'm not sure why he would unless all his research had turned up nothing. If I had information to prove my point I would show it and not insult those who do not have the info and simply want to be informed. He is not Wonka and I'm not Slugworth trying to steal his everlasting gobbstopper recipe. I hope to find a black Stingray someday and would prefer to know what I'm talking about if and when I do. It stinks that I may have chased away one of my only resources. And BTW I love Muddy Waters awesome music.


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## Hoagie57

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Here is where I pose the same question I have before, how do you explain 3 years of production and no mention of them anywhere? I know
> Schwinn did some wonky stuff but that seems like too large of a gap to me without proof. I buy @Baldy Jeff and @60sstuff  have real '65s but what about the other years? Any ideas? Otherwise I will have a black '68 by next spring.



I have a Black 68 Coal Krate ,,, all original I SWEAR  🤞  My proof is I have pic's of it & the shifter ball is just ever so slightly larger then the normal production. But no need to beat this one into the ground . Thanks Guy's


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## nick tures

https://www.ebay.com/itm/114362324328?campid=5335809022   heres one


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## mrg

A little off the blk SR but this is just the tip of the unknown things Schwinn did, when I was stripping the spray paint off the 53/4 Jaguar guard and noticed under the Jaguar screen/decal & OG Schwinn paint & undercoat there is a shadow of another different model screen/decal?, well I was told by old Schwinn employees there were bins of bad paint/screw-ups, guards, fenders etc. they would repaint & use, that would explain this and why me & others have also found different color paint under og paint or even painted over chrome fenders but that's a whole other story!


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## Xlobsterman

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Yes this is my point about the '65s. But that does not explain the later bikes. They would have had to paint the frames especially for these bikes. Again something that would not be difficult for Schwinn to do. But  a 3 year run of test bikes does not make sense. If they did not find a need for them in '65 why would they try again 2 more times. I understand  Schwinn often did things that didn't make sense.
> 
> 
> I get that , I often ask too many questions. It was seeming to me that the individual who prompted this thread had done a bit of research. I do not want to be clueless so I asked some questions. If he had any information he is keeping it close to the vest. I'm not sure why he would unless all his research had turned up nothing. If I had information to prove my point I would show it and not insult those who do not have the info and simply want to be informed. He is not Wonka and I'm not Slugworth trying to steal his everlasting gobbstopper recipe. I hope to find a black Stingray someday and would prefer to know what I'm talking about if and when I do. It stinks that I may have chased away one of my only resources. And BTW I love Muddy Waters awesome music.




Yea, some of the personalities on message boards such as this never cease to amaze me! Why would someone claim to have such a rare bike, but not be willing to share the provenance to confirm its authenticity? The only reason I can think of, is that there is none. A copy of the text from an email, the written text in an Ebay ad, or an alleged telephone conversation isn't much proof of anything. There is more proof of fakes out there, then there is of the bikes being the real deal, so what does that tell us?

These bikes were before my time working in the industry, so I have no first had knowledge of these bikes from those early years. And even if I saw one, or worked on one back in the days I was working at the shop, I would have not given it a second thought. It would have been just another Sting-Ray........


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## tacochris

Xlobsterman said:


> Yea, some of the personalities on message boards such as this never cease to amaze me! Why would someone claim to have such a rare bike, but not be willing to share the provenance to confirm its authenticity? The only reason I can think of, is that there is none. A copy of the text from an email, the written text in an Ebay ad, or an alleged telephone conversation isn't much proof of anything. There is more proof of fakes out there, then there is of the bikes being the real deal, so what does that tell us?



Another really good reason I wont buy a "restored" phantom...its WAY too easy to fake them, like comically easy.


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## Xlobsterman




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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

I find it odd that the bike in question was posted shortly before that bike on Ebay was again listed for a ridiculous price. May be he wanted to peak some interest for his buddies bike. " Insert dropping bomb noise" If so that didn't quite work out.


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## Xlobsterman

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I find it odd that the bike in question was posted shortly before that bike on Ebay was again listed for a ridiculous price. May be he wanted to peak some interest for his buddies bike. " Insert dropping bomb noise" If so that didn't quite work out.




I find it odd that they would announce something as minor as "Glitter Saddles" in the reporter I posted above, but not a color change for the frame.......................?????? 

👀
👃
👅


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

I also find it interesting that the Fastback was offered in black in '66. The idea that the bikes in question were part of a market test is ridiculous.


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## Xlobsterman

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I also find it interesting that the Fastback was offered in black in '66. The idea that the bikes in question were part of a market test is ridiculous.




Yea I agree with you there. Some of the speculatory claims being made on this topic are questionable at best.


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## Coyote

Xlobsterman said:


> I find it odd that they would announce something as minor as "Glitter Saddles" in the Reporter




Silver-Glow saddles? How ridiculous!!!
No one would pay good money for something like that!! 😲


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## GTs58

Here's some documented news and it never happened. So I guess you can't believe everything that's printed.  

*Two new models for 1960!* 






*And no documentation on the price sheet! 
These two new models were never produced. 
But it says Dealers could order these from their Schwinn Distrubutor. *






*The fact remains, Schwinn did produce some Black Sting Rays. Will you find them in the Catalogs or the Reporter? Nope! A special order was placed, approved and then the order was filled. *

I'm sure many of you have heard about Schwinn producing bikes for Mead and for Chicago Cycle Supply Co. This is a very simple case where a special order was placed for a model's color that was not standard, so nothing special had to be manufactured, purchased or supplied. The order very well could have been made by the sales rep or manager of the Distribution center that supplied the bikes for the Texas, Oklahoma Zone. There will be no public announcements of this production, so you'll have to dig real deep in the land fills for any documentation or try to contact the manager of the Distribution center that supplied these pieces to the Dealers.


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## Xlobsterman

GTs58 said:


> *The fact remains, Schwinn did produce some Black Sting Rays. Will you find them in the Catalogs or the Reporter? Nope! A special order was placed, approved and then the order was filled. *




I haven't seen any *"Facts"* posted here that Schwinn produced any black Sting-Rays! Just nothing but speculation as to how these bikes came to exist!

But we have seen strong factual evidence that these bikes are easily faked using black Typhoon bikes and/or frames!

That being said, we can all choose to believe what we want as it relates to the bikes(s) in question!


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## kostnerave

Xlobsterman said:


> View attachment 1513888
> 
> View attachment 1513889



It blows my mind that a 1965 ten speed Varsity with a leather saddle, Sprint gearing and Weinmann caliper brakes, costs less than a super-deluxe Sting-ray, a coaster brake, single speed with a heavy, energy absorbing springer fork!


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## SKPC

Enoug!   All the lemmings here, all of us move on ok?


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## Xlobsterman

SKPC said:


> Enoug!   All the lemmings here, all of us move on ok?


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## mrg

kostnerave said:


> It blows my mind that a 1965 ten speed Varsity with a leather saddle, Sprint gearing and Weinmann caliper brakes, costs less than a super-deluxe Sting-ray, a coaster brake, single speed with a heavy, energy absorbing springer fork!



Supply & demand, StingRays were the hottest commodity in 65.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

SKPC said:


> Enoug!   All the lemmings here, all of us move on ok?



I agree, I was really hoping to get some useful info once the other post was locked out. It seems as though only a couple members own one and they are not talking. I hoped others would surface. I don't mind keeping it around in case someone comes up with something new. These bikes seem to get everyone's hackles up.  Everyone hates a guy who is always the naysayer but it needs to be said. The most foolish questions are the ones never asked. A little humility goes a long way. We all need to lighten up, life is too short.


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## Vbushnell

The bike on Ebay for 12k looks to be an original paint to me. 
This black paint looks very similar to other OG black Schwinn bikes close in age.   (A black Fastback)
 I was asked to look over a black stingray for a buyer several years ago.  Much like the bike on eBay it was a 2 speed Deluxe.  With the reverse screen guard.  If I remember right it was also a March serial number bike.   I partially disassembled the bike and checked all date codes.   Looked at the paint and decals.  Looking for typical pedal strikes on the guard and wrench strikes close to the seat post clamp.  The bike had all the wear and tear of a original bike.   The condition was very similar to the bike on EBay.   The bike came from Oklahoma area.   I told the buyer in my opinion the paint was Original.  He purchased the bike that day.   
from that hands on experience and from the pics of the bike currently on EBay.   Plus the fact Schwinn was painting black bikes in 1965. 
I think they exist.   But………
Because it such a sensitive subject. And the price of a Black Stingray.  I would never personally list or sell one because I do not know with 100% confidence if the bike came from factory black.   
I think it would be a cool build challenge to see who can build a 65 and make it look the most OG in black.   I think even the best fake black stingray will look different from the one currently on eBay.   I’m no expert.  Just a extreme hobbiest who has put their hands on a potential “black” stingray.


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## Xlobsterman

Vbushnell said:


> Because it such a sensitive subject. And the price of a Black Stingray.  I would never personally list or sell one because *I do not know with 100% confidence if the bike came from factory black.  *




And this is the whole purpose of message board discussions such as this! To either prove or disprove that Schwinn ever made any in the Chicago Factory!

I am a firm believer that there would be documentation available if they were ever produced by Schwinn. And until I see that documentation, I will say they are all fabricated from outside sources, and not factory built bikes!


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## koolbikes

This is just for point of information from other post of Black Sting-ray's that were mentioned here for others to refer too.


"QUOTE"
Black Stingray (1965-1967)

The Schwinn black stingray was a promotional concept between 1965-1967. There were 10 given to a select few different Schwinn dealers each year (confirmed by Schwinn dealer). Some speculate that the reason that only specific stores got them was either they had high sales records or that they were selected to test how well the black stingray would sell for a consumer survey. So far, all the true original paint, black stingrays with photographic evidence, have been either a deluxe single speed J39+6 or a deluxe two speed J39-1. Currently, there is no evidence of a black standard stingray or a black super deluxe stingray on the internet, with close/detailed pictures of the serial number, original paint, and original screening.



The following black stingrays have been confirmed:

~1965 shorty frame, deluxe single speed J39+6 (2 currently found)

~1965 shorty frame, deluxe two speed J39-1 (8 currently found)

~1965 long frame, deluxe two speed J39-1 (1 currently found)

~1966 long frame, deluxe single speed J39+6 (3 currently found)

~1966 long frame, deluxe two speed J39-1 (1 currently found)

~1967 long frame, deluxe single speed J39+6 (3 currently found)



A couple of things to look out for when identifying an original paint black stingray:

~There should be red, terra cotta-like primer under the black paint (this will be visible in nicks and scratches throughout the bike or near where the rear axle attaches to the frame)

~If it is pre-March 1965, and is a shorty frame, it is possible for it to be an original black stingray, if the S2 single/two speed rear wheel seats in the frame properly (typhoon frames were made for S7 wheels and don’t fit S2’s nicely [are forced into the frame and are very tight]). In addition, the chainguard stencil should be clearly original and not tampered with (for example, if there are scratches under the stencil, then more than likely the guard has been tampered with).

~If it is past March 1965 and is a shorty frame, then it is not a black stingray, it is probably the frame of a typhoon, skipper, or fleet. Any black deluxe stingray after March 1965 are all long frames and cannot be a typhoon (all typhoons are shorty frames).

~If it is a long frame with obviously original black paint between April 1965-October 1967, more than likely it is an original black stingray.

~Be aware, a lot people think they have original black stingrays, but if they cannot prove with before-and-after pictures, and close ups of the paint and serial number, then be very cautious before purchasing.


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## Vbushnell

People can stomp their feet and fold your arms and demand documentation, because you know it probably does not exist.  And declare yourself right and everyone else wrong.   That cool.   But……..
Let’s say Schwinn produced every color we know every year.   Take the BigFoot factor out of the equation.    Look at that bike currently on eBay from Wisconsin.  
and tell me that is not a Original painted bike?    So maybe it was a different model.  Typhoon or something similar Schwinn produced in 65 dressed up with stingray parts.   The chain Guard is the wild factor.   And if someone took a 65 20” bike in Original black paint and made the chain guard match that closely.  Great job!  
my experience with Schwinn colors is most age and show patina the same.    What I mean is.
Coppertones and Limes look great with heavy patina.
Yellow and White look like Garbage with heavy Patina.  
Red and Blue bikes are somewhere between.  
this black bike on EBay.  Plus the bike I had the privilege of looking over very much match the condition of other black bikes I have restored from the 60s.
go back and look at the bike on EBay.  Give me your documentation facts that say this bike is not Original paint.   I like a bullet style format on outlines.    
those of you are so passionate about your post with all your !!!!!!!!!
Let’s see a few before and after pics of all the bikes you have built.  
Van Bushnell 
2814706911 
N Kildare Cycle Shop 1718 



			https://m.youtube.com/c/NKildareCycleShop1718
		










						Meet Van Bushnell of N. Kildare Cycle Shop 1718 - Voyage Houston Magazine | Houston City Guide
					

Today we’d like to introduce you to Van Bushnell. Van, please share your story with us. How did you get to where you are today? Since I was a kid, bicycles have been a big part of my life. Starting with the birth of BMX in the late 70s and early 80s, I was on […]



					voyagehouston.com


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## Xlobsterman

OK, I am going to address a few things in your rambling post separately since I feel they are directed at me personally:



Vbushnell said:


> People can stomp their feet and fold your arms and demand documentation, because you know it probably does not exist.  And declare yourself right and everyone else wrong.




First of all, I haven't demanded anything. I just voiced a statement that I am not going to believe the Black 65 Stingrays were built at the Chicago Factory without seeing any documentation from Schwinn clearly stating they were!

Secondly, I never declared myself right, or that anyone else's opinion was wrong. But that being said, I will say that just because you can't find any documentation from Schwinn on certain bikes doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

Let me give you a perfect example: Here is a screen shot from your FB page stating that the Schwinn Sneaker Bike didn't exist in the Schwinn catalog. And here it is clearly listed in this copy of a page out of the 78 dealer catalog!
















Vbushnell said:


> That cool.   But……..
> Let’s say Schwinn produced every color we know every year.   Take the BigFoot factor out of the equation.    Look at that bike currently on eBay from Wisconsin.
> and tell me that is not a Original painted bike?    So maybe it was a different model.  Typhoon or something similar Schwinn produced in 65 dressed up with stingray parts.   The chain Guard is the wild factor.   And if someone took a 65 20” bike in Original black paint and made the chain guard match that closely.  Great job!
> my experience with Schwinn colors is most age and show patina the same.    What I mean is.
> Coppertones and Limes look great with heavy patina.
> Yellow and White look like Garbage with heavy Patina.
> Red and Blue bikes are somewhere between.
> this black bike on EBay.  Plus the bike I had the privilege of looking over very much match the condition of other black bikes I have restored from the 60s.
> go back and look at the bike on EBay.  Give me your documentation facts that say this bike is not Original paint.   I like a bullet style format on outlines.
> those of you are so passionate about your post with all your !!!!!!!!!




I never stated that the bike on Ebay wasn't original paint. What I have stated is that for me to believe that any 65 Black Sting-Ray was built on the assembly line at the Schwinn factory, I would have so see actual documentation from Schwinn stating it was. I also clearly stated that anyone here was free to believe what they want about the authenticity of these black Sting-Rays!!!!!!



Vbushnell said:


> Let’s see a few before and after pics of all the bikes you have built.




I wish I had taken pics of all the custom bikes I built in my years working at the Schwinn dealer back in the day, but I do not have any. I didn't have any type of social media back in the 70's & 80's so I didn't have the need for taking pictures to post showing off those bikes I built. In hindsight I now wish I would have taken pics of them, as it would be cool to see them all again! The only before and after pics I have is of this Schwinn KLUNKER 5 that came from my shop back in 78. I found this bike on Ebay a couple of years ago, and it was thrashed. I did a full teardown, and rebuild. Here is the before, and after shots of that bike.

















Vbushnell said:


> Van Bushnell
> 2814706911
> N Kildare Cycle Shop 1718
> 
> 
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/c/NKildareCycleShop1718
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meet Van Bushnell of N. Kildare Cycle Shop 1718 - Voyage Houston Magazine | Houston City Guide
> 
> 
> Today we’d like to introduce you to Van Bushnell. Van, please share your story with us. How did you get to where you are today? Since I was a kid, bicycles have been a big part of my life. Starting with the birth of BMX in the late 70s and early 80s, I was on […]
> 
> 
> 
> voyagehouston.com




I don't have any Youtube videos, or an active FB page set-up to promote myself such as you do! All I have is my certificate from the Schwinn Service School that I attended back in 1980 while actually working for a Schwinn dealer. I am just an average guy who likes to collect/restore Schwinn Cruisers. Like me or not, that's who I am...........


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## Oldbikeguy1960

I would've replied sooner but I had to read the whole thread twice to make sure my point was not already covered.
Black Stingray or no Black Stingray? That is the question. I read all the expert opinions and bits of proof (for and against) and I have a definite answer.
Not one person here knows for sure! That includes myself!
That being said, I offer some points previously mentioned, but not discussed together in one post, plus a couple points of my own research.
Schwinn made all manner of bikes they never made. Test bikes, one off bikes for special customers like the first Schwin Twinn tandem for a lady whose husband was a blind veteran and she needed to ride up front.
Al Fritz had numerous special Stingrays made for his son, who gave them to friends when he got the next one.
Does anyone here deny that of the Phantom bikes, The Black Phantom was the most popular? Apparently there WERE Goth kids even in the 1950s. Black bicycles have been around since the earliest bicycles.
Not everything in the catalogs were made, and not everything made was in a catalog.
My point? An earlier post shows a Schwinn Reporter page from May 1965. It shows one of the Schwinn Stingray available colors as Charcoal. While Charcoal was mentioned in some Schwinn catalogs, it does not show in the 1965 catalog for any bike. Was Charcoal Black? If so Schwinn  says it WAS available but it was not in the catalogs. Maybe some dealers or customers requested the color since they offered it in the Schwinn Reporter and Schwinn produced them.
Just like every collectible in existence, some buttnugget will produce fake bikes to make money off unsuspecting or uninformed buyers. How many of the Flamboyant Red, Kool Yellow and Campus Green Krate series bikes were really sold as 5 Speed StingRays? It gets worse in 1970-1972 when you could buy Coaster Krates. Only the Orange Krate was spared since ithe catalog doesn't show any Stingrays in Kool Orange except the Orange Krate.
It is very difficult to weather paint to get a 50+ year old bike to look right with new paint. I have viewed a couple chainguards that appear to have the correct patina, wear and screening that were both black and said Stingray. Were they legit? Probably, unless one of the experts here can show everyone how to weather black paint to a 50+ year old patina and wear.
That is why most fake bikes look like new, because new paint and worn parts wouldn't fool a blind man. That is also why I refuse to purchase any more overpriced Stingray bikes. If I have the matching patina frame and chainguard I will build the bike myself using correct dated parts and I do not sell them. If I make a "Tribute" bike, it is also for my own personal collection and I will be honest about it being built from parts it normally would not have came with, like my December 1968 Pea Picker with an accessory Silver glow seat with the Campus Green stripe, a front fender and the same shifter  as the 1,000,000th Schwinn, which coincidentally was an Orange Krate. With it I posed the scenario "What if Schwinn would've chosen a Pea Picker for the 1,000,000th bike? It may have been a better advertising move since the Pea Picker was new for 1969, and the 1968 run should've ended and the 1969 run began in September of 1968. It was still built in 1968 so the ad was truthful, but it was built for the 1969 model year and fitted with a 1968 style accessory seat.
I have been building and riding these bikes since high school in 1974, and I am still not claiming to be one of the "experts". Not one person on any forum can prove whether Schwinn built any black Stingrays unless they produce photos from the 1960s, verifiable as genuine of a black Stingray.
By the same token, nobody on any forum can prove they didn't without a letter from a high company official in the 1960s, verifiable as genuine that Schwinn did not build one black Stingray in the 1960s. They will also have to explain the Schwinn Reporter May 1965 showing Charcoal, which I would call black as an available color on the StingRays.
Trend this post, I will state with absolute 100% certainty that I BELIEVE Schwinn made a few black Stingrays, but if my belief was cash you would still need a quarter to buy a gumball in today's economy.
You can believe either way. Just do not trample my right and the rights of others to believe the opposite answer(s).
Thanks for approving my membership, I hope this post does not end it on the same day.
Thanks, Rob


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## Coyote

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> An earlier post shows a Schwinn Reporter page from May 1965. It shows one of the Schwinn Stingray available colors as Charcoal.




The article referenced says that Stingray "Silver-Glow seats" will be available in Charcoal.
I don't have any skin in the game, but I'd have to see some documentation (vintage photo/invoices) before I believe the bikes existed.


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## Oldbikeguy1960

I saw a Person's made seat with a Stingray tag that was a black/charcoal color with the glitter look in it. Was a little worn, the vinyl looked old enough to be original. I wonder if that was what they referenced.


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## kingsting

Just for fun, I'll toss in a picture of my original paint/screen/decals 1966 Violet Typhoon. It has the remains of a dealer sticker on it but it's no longer readable. I bought it off an older gentleman at the Hershey car show many years ago. It was in pretty bad shape and his price was pretty high - but I recalled a discussion on the old Schwinn forums about the questionable existence of violet mens' middleweights so I bought it.
I've been told by old timers over the years that Schwinn would paint a non standard color for a dealer if it was requested. No idea how the process went to order one. Did you have to be a high volume dealer? Know the right guy? Have a good rep? Would they do it for any shop? Who knows... But anyway here is a pedestrian middleweight that somebody wanted in purple. Too bad it wasn't a Panther or Jaguar!


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## schwinnbikebobb

The Violet Typhoon gave me a chuckle. Years ago I drove 5 hours round trip to buy one.  I was worried that it was not purple but was afraid to ask too many questions.  I believe this was pre digital camera's so not a simple send more pics.   Got there and of course it was red and he had a crappy camera! .  I think it has been posted that dealers could not get custom colors but regional might have been able to.  As said could have been as always with everything who you knew.


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## ABC Services

Plenty of the Schwinn dealer sales logs out there, "might" be some evidence in one of those? I have a few, I will look them over.


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## Xlobsterman

ABC Services said:


> Plenty of the Schwinn dealer sales logs out there, "might" be some evidence in one of those? I have a few, I will look them over.




I have one also. New old stock, never written in. This one would be great for falsifying documentation to go with the fake Black Sting-Ray's out there...........LOL


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## Oldbikeguy1960

I am sure you are right although it would be a waste of a cool old piece of Schwinn history.
Nothing anyone can say or do short of Frank V Schwinn, Frank W or AL Fritz coming back from the dead and signing a notarized deposition verifying these bikes were made to give them validity. Maybe that wouldn't even be good enough, after all Al fritz was interviewed about the colored line front tires and said he could not recall Schwinn ever having color line tires for the Krates. He was most likely the guy who would've approved them. We can all agree that they exist I believe.
Like an earlier post mentioned, the Grape Krate existed, at least in one example and the documentation does not mention those being available. That would've been a much bigger deal for Schwinn than painting a few, or few hundred Stingrays black. 
I have heard several negative opinions on the existence of 1971 disc brake bikes. Since I owned one in high school and have had at least one 6-71 dated hub since then I would stand on their existence. Even if they were produced for the 1972 model year they would be stamped somewhere between September and December 1971 to get them in homes by Christmas, the biggest season of the year for youth bike sales. 
Maybe regional did order black Stingrays. Maybe dealers took orders or requested a group of Black Stingrays to sell. It happened in California for the original Stingrays after the test market absorbed the bikes like a paper towel dropped on water. 
There are plenty of verifiable examples of Schwinn building bikes that never showed up in any catalogs or literature but it seems as if the black StingRay is the red headed stepchild of the family. It is easier to get a group of people to agree to the existence of Bigfoot, the Lockh Ness Monster or Annunaki from Nibiru than to believe that Schwinn would've ran Stingray frames down the black paint line and sold them without printing a special catalog or making a big fuss over doing it. They were in business to sell bikes, not print memos. If Black Stingrays would sell then I believe they would sell them.
I have seen for sale a few 1968 Fastbacks in Violet, even Rams Horn versions. Some showed enough scars and patina to be believable and still their existence is questioned. They were not in any sales catalogs, the sellers were not making a fuss over how rare they are, but they are out there.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

I would like to apologize to @60sstuff for doubting his bike to be original. I truly wish I had gone a different rout with this post but I let my head get away from me. After reading more of his posts it became obvious he does know his S@#t and has done his research. I also was reading some posts about bike friends and realized how I was going about things was not good for anyone. It was the post of @tacochris  that made the most sense. We are all on the same quest and we need help from everyone and anyone to complete it. I certainly was not going to get answers I wanted with the angle I was taking. I would refer all and any future posts on this subject  to the thread " stingray oddities  I have  seen"  it seems like it would be a more appropriate thread.  I really regret having made other then friends on this site. And yes, we can all just get along.


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## Oldbikeguy1960

Coyote said:


> The article referenced says that Stingray "Silver-Glow seats" will be available in Charcoal.
> I don't have any skin in the game, but I'd have to see some documentation (vintage photo/invoices) before I believe the bikes existed.



Yes, I caught that. Don't know why I misinterpreted that. I knew what it said but I made it say what I wanted it to. Politicians do it on a daily basis.


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## Xlobsterman

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I would like to apologize to @60sstuff for doubting his bike to be original. I truly wish I had gone a different rout with this post but I let my head get away from me. After reading more of his posts it became obvious he does know his S@#t and has done his research. I also was reading some posts about bike friends and realized how I was going about things was not good for anyone. It was the post of @tacochris  that made the most sense. We are all on the same quest and we need help from everyone and anyone to complete it. I certainly was not going to get answers I wanted with the angle I was taking. I would refer all and any future posts on this subject  to the thread " stingray oddities  I have  seen"  it seems like it would be a more appropriate thread.  I really regret having made other then friends on this site. And yes, we can all just get along.




I don't think you needed to apologize for anything. You had a legitimate concern, and had every right to express it. Personally, I still have my doubts that Schwinn ever produced a Black Sting-Ray in 65. And I firmly believe that if they did, there would be documented proof from Schwinn stating so. 

There was a recent thread about the authenticity of the early 82 model Sidewinder being produced in "White", and it was finally proven with "Dealer" documentation. So I believe the same would exist for the Black Sting-Ray if it was ever produced at the factory!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969

Xlobsterman said:


> I don't think you needed to apologize for anything. You had a legitimate concern,



It was even more so the way I went about it.


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## Xlobsterman

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> It was even more so the way I went about it.




I didn't have any issues with it. Although, I do have an issue with the way certain threads get locked when someone gets butthurt, or it doesn't go in the direction they want it to. But that is all on the moderators of this website, and I have to accept that, even if I don't agree with it.


----------

