# Late teens/early 20's Indian



## ohdeebee (Apr 9, 2017)

I bought his bike a week ago, but won't have it in my possession until the end of the month. These bikes are well outside my already limited realm of knowledge so therefore I am consulting with the experts. I've read through the Indian information thread on here a couple of times now, but am still not clear on a lot of the details. 

 I'd like to know what is right and wrong parts wise on this bike. The only glaring thing I can see are the wheels. Seat looks questionable and the pics I have don't show enough detail on the pedals. The seller provided me after the sale with an original 1916 catalog saying that it came to him with the bike. From what I can tell this bike is not a 1916. 

Is there a way to pin down the year more precisely than 1917-1923? Do the serial numbers provide any information or are we still accumulating them in order to find out more information? What years used the flared front fender? What hubs should I be looking for? What pedals should be on the bike? Grips? More than likely this bike will need a repaint as well so I would be interested in color choices as well. 

These are all of the photos I have of the bike at the moment, but I'll be happy to provide as many as needed once I have possession of the the bicycle. I'm more than happy to share catalog pics as well,  it it's my understanding that this catalog has already been well reproduced and is readily available. Thanks in advance for any information, I look forward to diving into this project and learning as much as I can along the way.


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## Joe Buffardi (Apr 9, 2017)

Love it! Congrats to you!!


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## 47jchiggins (Apr 9, 2017)

Pinning down the years on some othese Indians has been a challenge, to say the least. I am curious to see the serial number even though I have not found any clear sequential information for the Hendee era bikes. The fork, bottom bracket, rear cross brace where the fender is attached  ( curved or straight ) and rear drops will provide clues, congratulations!
Todd


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## catfish (Apr 9, 2017)

Nice find.


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## Dan the bike man (Apr 9, 2017)

Awesome find! Parts look correct to me other than *maybe* the seat? I wish I owned this bike!


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## Freqman1 (Apr 9, 2017)

Not sure about seat but grips may be original and can't tell on pedals. I would guess year to be about 1918 with split bottom bracket. I think this may be the last year for the split BB as well but not for sure. Red is your only color choice and likely with gold pins on the fenders. Rear hub could have been Morrow, ND Model A, or Atherton? Look forward to seeing serial and more pics. V/r Shawn


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## kunzog (Apr 10, 2017)

I would use these blocks in Torrington frames:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bicycle-4-P...774431?hash=item3adf23e3df:g:-fIAAOSwoJZXSJNw


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## bricycle (Apr 10, 2017)

Nice nab!


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## tommydale1950 (Apr 10, 2017)

I have an "extra " Indian saddle...Tom


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## ohdeebee (Apr 30, 2017)

Picked up the bike today and added some parts. I know the light isn't correct. Saddle looks a lot better with the correct looking undercarriage. Unfortunately the serial number is illegible. Pedals that came with the bike do not match, are either correct? Front fender brace is also broken in half.


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## Dan the bike man (Apr 30, 2017)

Looks great!


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## Joe Buffardi (Apr 30, 2017)

Love it!!


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## bikejunk (Apr 30, 2017)

Red is not the color choice -Vermilion or Indian red it is a lush  maroon -- refer to properly restored teens Indian motorcycles gold pinstripes


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## ohdeebee (Apr 30, 2017)

Almost forgot. Rear hub is Mattatuck All American. I've never heard of it.


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## rustyspoke66 (May 1, 2017)

Wheels are not the correct era by about 40 or 50 years but its easy enough to build up a era correct ridable wheel set. I think the Mattatuck hub is what replaced New departure but I'm not 100% sure.


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## zephyrblau (May 1, 2017)

I'm taking bets on how long it will be before your inbox explodes with offers to buy it :eek:
p.s. beautiful bike & a great find.


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## Freqman1 (May 2, 2017)

I see the original Indian red underneath the red house paint. Might be worth a shot to try and remove it. I'm sure Todd will weigh in but based on the font and arrangement of the numbers I'm still sticking by about 1918ish. V/r Shawn


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## redline1968 (May 2, 2017)

I think this is a 1918 indian fork your looks later. And just a primer this is the light for the Indian and none of it's for sale sorry..


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## Joe Buffardi (May 2, 2017)

I always thought that the casted type chain tensioners were later than 1918, possibly more like 1920 and the stamped two piece were earlier. 

Mine are stamped two piece. If you remove the adj. screw the u-shaped threaded piece will fall out.


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## 47jchiggins (May 2, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> I see the original Indian red underneath the red house paint. Might be worth a shot to try and remove it. I'm sure Todd will weigh in but based on the font and arrangement of the numbers I'm still sticking by about 1918ish. V/r Shawn



I have to agree with Shawn, I'm thinking 1917-1919, still a lot to learn about these bikes.


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## 47jchiggins (May 2, 2017)

Joe Buffardi said:


> I always thought that the casted type chain tensioners were later than 1918, possibly more like 1920 and the stamped two piece were earlier.
> 
> Mine are stamped two piece. If you remove the adj. screw the u-shaped threaded piece will fall out.
> 
> View attachment 460194



Joe, my script badged (1916)  has that same style tensioner as yours and I have seen another well known script badged Indian with the same. The funny thing is, the 1916 book appears to show a couple different styles of rear drops and tensioners on different models, I stress the word "appears". I wonder if it's possible that these rear drops and tensioners were used more based on what was on hand vs year/model specific ? 
Todd


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## Joe Buffardi (May 2, 2017)

Im stumped. We definiteley need to compile more info.


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## Goldenindian (May 2, 2017)

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/old-indian.40731/page-3

Good thread on Indians. May help.


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## zephyrblau (May 17, 2017)

is there a model # or name reference for the Old Sol headlight ?


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## oddball (May 20, 2017)

Old Sol Leader


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## redline1968 (May 20, 2017)

I have the champion for sale no bracket.


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## ohdeebee (Aug 14, 2017)

Added some period correct Wheels/tires tonight. Also replaced the broken fender brace. The bike rides very nicely.


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## Goldenindian (Aug 14, 2017)

Looking real good Jason.... are they 28" rims?


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## ohdeebee (Aug 14, 2017)

Goldenindian said:


> Looking real good Jason.... are they 28" rims?




The tires come come in at 26x2. Came off of a teens Iver. I'll  post pics of them tomorrow.


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## Freqman1 (Aug 15, 2017)

I think I would still go after that house paint and see if I could get back to the original stuff. Looking good though! V/r Shawn


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 15, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> I think I would still go after that house paint and see if I could get back to the original stuff. Looking good though! V/r Shawn



A Beauty...and a Rare Bike--- Take your time with this one...---------Cowboy


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## ohdeebee (Aug 15, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> I think I would still go after that house paint and see if I could get back to the original stuff. Looking good though! V/r Shawn




Working on it. Been a busy summer.


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## ohdeebee (Aug 16, 2017)

Here are the rims (black) compared to flat style glue on rims of the same era. The ones on the bike are considerably wider and beefier overall. The spokes are also a heavier gauge. Hubs are unmarked morrow coaster rear and unmarked knockout hub front. The front axle is slightly larger than a standard bicycle front axle from the period. Spacing is standard on both.  Any ideas what they are? The more I think about it the more it seems they aren't bicycle rims.


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## willswares1220 (Aug 28, 2017)

ohdeebee said:


> Added some period correct Wheels/tires tonight. Also replaced the broken fender brace. The bike rides very nicely.
> 
> View attachment 660582



Saw this machine at the Neenah, WI bicycle swap and what an interesting "rider" he's made out of it!!
Love those wheels and tires. Gives it that motorcycle appearance!!


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## ohdeebee (Feb 18, 2018)

Inspired by @Bikermaniac , I started scrubbing on the paint yesterday. Perhaps there is some original paint under the repaint. Hard to tell. At least with my eyes. 


The lighter red is the house paint.


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 18, 2018)

ohdeebee said:


> Inspired by @Bikermaniac , I started scrubbing on the paint yesterday. Perhaps there is some original paint under the repaint. Hard to tell. At least with my eyes.
> 
> 
> The lighter red is the house paint.
> ...




What did you find?


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## mickeyc (Feb 20, 2018)

Joe Buffardi said:


> I always thought that the casted type chain tensioners were later than 1918, possibly more like 1920 and the stamped two piece were earlier.
> 
> Mine are stamped two piece. If you remove the adj. screw the u-shaped threaded piece will fall out.
> 
> View attachment 460194




My 1926 Columbia has the u-shaped tensioners too.


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 20, 2018)

This is the information I have on changes made to the Indian Bicycle models. You can use this information to pin point the year of your bike (or close enough

1. Solid Hendee badge 1917 - 1923
2. Bracket-screw chain adjusters with flat dropouts 1916 - 1917
3. Split bottom bracket 1917 - 1918 (offered it as an option during 1919 and 1920 but the comun was one piece bb)
4. Straight rear fender bridges (1916 - 1917)
5. 4 plate (2 on top welded together) fork 1917 -1923
6. Diamond cups 1916 - 1922
7. Skirted fenders 1916 - 1923

Great find, it could be a tank or a tan-less model.


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## ohdeebee (Feb 20, 2018)

Bikermaniac said:


> This is the information I have on changes made to the Indian Bicycle models. You can use this information to pin point the year of your bike (or close enough
> 
> 1. Solid Hendee badge 1917 - 1923
> 2. Bracket-screw chain adjusters with flat dropouts 1916 - 1917
> ...




Thanks for the good info. I believe mine to be a 1918. Would there have been a decal or pinstriping of any kind I should be looking for?


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## Freqman1 (Feb 20, 2018)

Bikermaniac said:


> This is the information I have on changes made to the Indian Bicycle models. You can use this information to pin point the year of your bike (or close enough
> 
> 1. Solid Hendee badge 1917 - 1923
> 2. Bracket-screw chain adjusters with flat dropouts 1916 - 1917
> ...




It looks like you amended your post (diamond cups) just as I was typing! I would also go one year further on the Hendee badge. While I know they changed the name in Oct '23 I believe they carried the Hendee badge over into '24 and possibly through the year on the bicycles. The reason I say this is my '24 has the Hendee badge. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Feb 20, 2018)

ohdeebee said:


> Thanks for the good info. I believe mine to be a 1918. Would there have been a decal or pinstriping of any kind I should be looking for?



You should find some fine gold striping on the fenders. V/r Shawn


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 20, 2018)

ohdeebee said:


> Thanks for the good info. I believe mine to be a 1918. Would there have been a decal or pinstriping of any kind I should be looking for?




No decals, pins tripping yes, gold.


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 20, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> It looks like you amended your post (diamond cups) just as I was typing! I would also go one year further on the Hendee badge. While I know they changed the name in Oct '23 I believe they carried the Hendee badge over into '24 and possibly through the year on the bicycles. The reason I say this is my '24 has the Hendee badge. V/r Shawn




Yeah, quite possible. Transition features only I guess.


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 24, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> You should find some fine gold striping on the fenders. V/r Shawn




Not only in the fenders but also in the frame. Very thin double line.


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## removed (Feb 25, 2018)

i have these and some indian repro blox from my friend foxgrips, if youre interested just an fyi


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## redline1968 (Feb 25, 2018)

This is a 23


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 25, 2018)

CRIPPLE said:


> i have these and some indian repro blox from my friend foxgrips, if youre interested just an fyi
> 
> View attachment 760055
> 
> ...




Beautiful pedals. These will be suitable for models 1923 and up if I remember correctly. I have a set of those on my 1923 Indian.


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## Freqman1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Bikermaniac said:


> Beautiful pedals. These will be suitable for models 1923 and up if I remember correctly. I have a set of those on my 1923 Indian.



I believe these would be correct for '23 and this is what is on my '24. V/r Shawn


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 26, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> I believe these would be correct for '23 and this is what is on my '24. V/r Shawn
> View attachment 760670




Beautiful, too bad nobody is reproducing the Indian script blocks...


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## removed (Feb 26, 2018)

Bikermaniac said:


> Beautiful, too bad nobody is reproducing the Indian script blocks...



FOXGRIP MAKES AN INDIAN BLOCK IN 2 COLORS


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 26, 2018)

CRIPPLE said:


> FOXGRIP MAKES AN INDIAN BLOCK IN 2 COLORS




Not for the Gibson pedals that I know, or they do?


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## Freqman1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Bikermaniac said:


> Not for the Gibson pedals that I know, or they do?



I don't think you can even take these pedals apart to get the blocks off. If someone has figured it please show us. V/r Shawn


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## removed (Feb 26, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> I don't think you can even take these pedals apart to get the blocks off. If someone has figured it please show us. V/r Shawn



THE PEDALS ARE OPEN ON THE INSIDE... THEY PULL OUT AND OFF THE PEDAL


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 26, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> I don't think you can even take these pedals apart to get the blocks off. If someone has figured it please show us. V/r Shawn




This guy most know the answer, he sells the rubbers for Gibson pedals: You can contact him: *rk.miller@eastlink.ca*
My blocks are in great condition, so no complaints.


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 26, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> I don't think you can even take these pedals apart to get the blocks off. If someone has figured it please show us. V/r Shawn




However looking at this picture I think you just slide the block's slot in the outer frame and you just force it in to get to an horizontal position to get second slots inserted in the inner frame bar.


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## redline1968 (Feb 26, 2018)




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## Bikermaniac (Feb 26, 2018)

redline1968 said:


> View attachment 760783




As far as I know some people has been persuading this guy to reproduce the Indian blocks for the Gibson pedals but he wouldn't do it. Too bad.


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## removed (Feb 26, 2018)

Bikermaniac said:


> However looking at this picture I think you just slide the block's slot in the outer frame and you just force it in to get to an horizontal position to get second slots inserted in the inner frame bar.
> 
> View attachment 760782



YEAH THATS WHAT I SAID... EASY PEASY AND NO THE PEDALS DONET COME APART, THEY DONT NEED TO


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## removed (Feb 26, 2018)

FOX GRIPS DO NOT LOOK LIKE YOURS


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## Bikermaniac (Feb 26, 2018)

CRIPPLE said:


> FOX GRIPS DO NOT LOOK LIKE YOURS




No they don't. You're correct.


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## removed (Feb 26, 2018)

i wrote the fellow about the blocks, thanks you very much


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## ohdeebee (Mar 18, 2018)

Struck gold today


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## ohdeebee (Mar 18, 2018)

And a little nickel


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## removed (Apr 26, 2018)

Are you still looking for the correct gibson pedals for your indian?


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## zephyrblau (Apr 26, 2018)

I just answered my own question by re-reading the thread.


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## fordsnake (Apr 27, 2018)

Can someone explain why these pedals are referred to as "Gibson". I always thought they were Westfield's?


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## ccmerz (Apr 27, 2018)

The name Gibson on the pedal rubber was named after J.W.Gibson the General Manager of The Canada Cycle and Motor Co. at that time.


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## removed (Apr 27, 2018)

fordsnake said:


> Can someone explain why these pedals are referred to as "Gibson". I always thought they were Westfield's?





Because if you search westfield... when you need some and everyone else is finding them under gibson


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## removed (Apr 27, 2018)

I


CRIPPLE said:


> Because if you search westfield... when you need some and everyone else is finding them under gibson




If you need some try searching gibson pedals....  you're out of luck o what you always call them







 luck searching what you've always called them


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## fordsnake (Apr 27, 2018)

ccmerz said:


> The name Gibson on the pedal rubber was named after J.W.Gibson the General Manager of The Canada Cycle and Motor Co. at that time.





Thanks for the info about the "Gibson" rubber. FYI, the pedal itself was announced in 1921 by Westfield, making its debut in 1922.


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## removed (Apr 28, 2018)

fordsnake said:


> Thanks for the info about the "Gibson" rubber. FYI, the pedal itself was announced in 1921 by Westfield, making its debut in 1922.View attachment 796370



That's the same pedal but long after it was used on other bikes


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## removed (Apr 28, 2018)

CRIPPLE said:


> That's the same pedal but long after it was used on other bikes





Just do a search on ebay... search gibson pedals then search westfield pedals.  What ever they are called should be determined by what happens in your search.  Obviously if no Westfield show up then that's not what they're called and you e been calling the pedals by an incorrect name.  Find all the "chickey" loves himself paper cuts you want... EVERYONE BUT YOU,calls them Gibsons


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## removed (Apr 28, 2018)

Bikermaniac said:


> This guy most know the answer, he sells the rubbers for Gibson pedals: You can contact him: *rk.miller@eastlink.ca*
> My blocks are in great condition, so no complaints.
> 
> View attachment 760778



These are goooood!


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## fordsnake (Apr 28, 2018)

Out of respect to ohdeebee and his thread, I'll start a new post to further the discussion of the nomenclature of this pedal.


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## Bikermaniac (Apr 28, 2018)

ohdeebee said:


> And a little nickel
> 
> View attachment 772963




Judging for the inner ring carved on your chain ring, if it's original to the bike, your Indian should be 1920 or 1921 last year for the split bottom bracket as far as I know. From 1916 to 1919 the chain ring was plain, like the one below.


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## hoofhearted (Apr 28, 2018)

*
O.K. .. Nelson ... 1916 thru 1919 ... the eleven-spoke
Indian chainring was plain ... no machine-made cir-
cular reveal in the outer ring below the teeth.

Did NOT know this.

Thank you very much, Nelson.

..... patric*


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## Bikermaniac (Apr 28, 2018)

hoofhearted said:


> *O.K. .. Nelson ... 1916 thru 1919 ... the eleven-spoke
> Indian chainring was plain ... no machine-made cir-
> cular reveal in the outer ring below the teeth.
> 
> ...




You're welcome Patric, in fact I think Columbia chain rings presents the same pattern. Check out the "flat" chain ring on your 1918 Columbia Military vs the 1920's Columbia chain ring at the bottom. The ring is clearly visible on the second picture. 
Patric if you have any other info on the Columbia chain rings I'll appreciate you share it so we can use it as reference to try to pin-point the year on @ohdeebee s Indian. Since Westfield manufactured both bicycles, chances are that the some changes apply to both models, but this is just a conjecture.
Nc


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## hoofhearted (Apr 28, 2018)

Bikermaniac said:


> You're welcome Patric, in fact I think Columbia chain rings presents the same pattern. Check out the "flat" chain ring on your 1918 Columbia Military vs the 1920's Columbia chain ring at the bottom. The ring is clearly visible on the second picture.
> Patric if you have any other info on the Columbia chain rings I'll appreciate you share it so we can use it as reference to try to pin-point the year on @ohdeebee s Indian. *Since* *Westfield* *manufactured* *both* *bicycles,* *chances* *are* *that* *the* *same* *changes* *apply* *to* *both* *models,* *but* *this* *is* *just* *a* *conjecture.
> *
> Nc




*Nelson ... What I know about Westfield could be
written in bold-print on the back of a gnat's ear ... 
and there would still be room for The Gettysburg Address.

..... patric*


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## Bikermaniac (Apr 28, 2018)

In the case of Indian bicycles I've seen this feature in a very consistent manner, but in the case of Columbia bicycles...mm I'm not sure; that's why I assume that they present the same features than Indians, but as I said this it's just a theory. We need more info on the Columbia chain rings, but I think this topic should be discussed in another post.


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