# Why Not Disclose What You Paid?



## HARPO (Sep 25, 2021)

I've _never_ had an issue with letting everyone know what I paid for a bike. I'm usually very proud that I managed to get a good or even a great deal on something. Haven't seen much of that here.

Are a lot of you nervous to do this because when you go to sell it, the price is going to be thrown back in your face and people will think you're being greedy? Personally, I put a _LOT_ of time and energy into the bikes I buy, whether I plan to keep them or flip them. I'm not going to sell them for what I paid for them. My time is as valuable as anyone's, and I did the leg work to find and pick up the bike in the first place.

Am I being nuts for letting my buying prices being made public?  😕


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## 3-speeder (Sep 25, 2021)

For me the question is, "Why disclose what you paid?" I am more interested in the bike than the price paid for the bike.


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## 1817cent (Sep 25, 2021)

I could care less what the seller paid for the bike or part.  If it is something i want or need, i will buy it if it is within my budget.  This is a hobby that provides much enjoyment and that is what counts to me...


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## Billythekid (Sep 25, 2021)

I think it’s good to show what was paid because it gives some basis for pricing items in the future.  At the same time if I want something I’ll pay what I feel is the best price that I can part with at the time. In general I’m cheap but I’ll pay up if it’s something I really want. People deleting prices things sold for in the classifieds defies what this forum is about LEARNING ! This seems to be something that is being posted about frequently mabe we can do a poll and add in the rules either you can or can’t delete sold ads prices ? I highly doubt the outcome either way would deter people from selling here.


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## phantom (Sep 25, 2021)

I typically don't disclose and here is why. Example 1. Let's say I pay $400 for a bike and maybe do a few cosmetics and adjustments and I sell it for $650. Example 2. Let's say I come across a very similar bike as in number 1 but I get a real deal on it for $200. I am still going to sell it for $650. If a buyer wants it for $650 it shouldn't matter to them what I paid for it.


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## cyclingday (Sep 25, 2021)

You shouldn’t want to know, what I’ve paid for something, because I’ll just set the new high bar.
Those pesky little prewar 37/39 Schwinn brake levers now cost in excess of $1,000 dollars thanks to me.
I needed one, they’re hard to find, so I grabbed the first nice one I could get.
Several other guys had the same idea, so the price went nuts.
Now, the last three of those levers has been sold, well in excess of $1,000 dollars.
So, believe me!
You don’t want to know, what I paid for that.
It really has no bearing on what it will sell for anyway.
That depends on what kind of mood I’m in on the day I decide to sell it.
Usually, I’m in a pretty good mood.
I’ll make you a good deal.😜


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## Hukah (Sep 25, 2021)

HARPO said:


> I've _never_ had an issue with letting everyone know what I paid for a bike. I'm usually very proud that I managed to get a good or even a great deal on something. Haven't seen much of that here.
> 
> Are a lot of you nervous to do this because when you go to sell it, the price is going to be thrown back in your face and people will think you're being greedy? Personally, I put a _LOT_ of time and energy into the bikes I buy, whether I plan to keep them or flip them. I'm not going to sell them for what I paid for them. My time is as valuable as anyone's, and I did the leg work to find and pick up the bike in the first place.
> 
> Am I being nuts for letting my buying prices being made public?  😕



Yes it’s about looking greedy.
Speaking in broad general terms and about the different groups at large, everyone wants the image of being just a nice guy dabbling in a hobby.
They’re not concerned with making a profit, this is just a fun hobby, they say.
It certainly is a fun hobby but they’re not fooling anyone with their ”it’s ONLY a hobby for me” stand. They pretend that money doesn’t mean anything to them and it’s only about the “fun”.
If that’s true then this hobby has the most altruistic people in the world, but judging by the rising prices I’m guessing that that’s a lot of hot air.
I never see anything listed below market value in any of the venues i haunt, so they must be hoarders too.
I think it better for all when we’re honest about our intentions and desires.
We all know that you’re not giving away or selling your items below what you paid for them, so just quit with that, it’s about the money to you too.
Knowing what items are selling and for how much is important to those of us who are buying, selling, swapping and trading in this hobby.
YMMV


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## cyclingday (Sep 25, 2021)

You obviously don’t know me very well. Lol!


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## Archie Sturmer (Sep 25, 2021)

HARPO said:


> I've _never_ had an issue with letting everyone know what I paid for a bike.
> I'm usually *very* *proud* that I managed to get a good or even a great deal on something.



Maybe some people are less proud or did not get a good or great deal; (and not necessarily to do with biblical scriptures about pride, boasting and humility).
Not sure if I am “nervous” - perhaps I am too afraid to find out by selling stuff someday; but that then makes me one of them “hoarders”.
I am not sure about the “greed” part.
Would I be greedy when I exchange money for goods only one way but not the other, or is greed always on the part of the buyer or seller purported to have gotten the better end of a deal as decided by the bicycle pricing czar, (or the greed czar).
Not sure if I am “pretending to dabble” — or maybe I am just not very good at dabbling; (I do not dabble nearly as well as those professional dabblers).
Sometimes when I buy things posted online, the transaction is maintained, at least for a while to be recent and relevant, with some level of buyer anonymity.  Perhaps that kind of history and other forums dedicated to the “what’s it worth” topic might make market research available to those interested.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Sep 25, 2021)

searching for deals and finding them is part of the fun. in the past few months I have found 2 Schwinn B-6's with forebrakes and one with a locking springer. $150.00 and $300.00. it seems people want to get 300 bucks each for these brakes.

anyone who pays $1,000.00 for a brake lever is a moron. I don't care how much money you have. yeah, I'd keep that one a secret


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## Hukah (Sep 25, 2021)

Anybody that wants to prove that it’s not about the money can simply post a link to the last item they sold that the price was based on what the buyer could afford and not on what the current perceived value was or how much the seller actually wanted for it.


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## Hukah (Sep 25, 2021)

I think most people have a generous streak in them or can be motivated to be generous. I’m sure we’ve all felt like “this is a cool buyer. I’m gonna throw in an extra goodie here for him”, “I’m gonna give him a discount on this thing because he seems like a nice guy” and blah blah blah, But there’s a difference between being generous (and if you’re not generous every transaction well then that should tell you something) and being altruistic in the sense that money don’t matter and it’s all about the fun.
Sorry, didn’t mean to hijack the thread but this is a great topic that too often stays buried.
I won’t interject any further.


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## Rusthound (Sep 25, 2021)

The majority of the time if you ask the seller they will tell they got more than they did. If you ask the buyer he paid less than he really did.  My greatest fear is if something happened to me, my wife would sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it.
The other thing is if the true prices were given you would see how badly one of the "good guys" screwed over a newbie.


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## Hukah (Sep 25, 2021)

Rusthound said:


> The majority of the time if you ask the seller they will tell they got more than they did. If you ask the buyer he paid less than he really did.  My greatest fear is if something happened to me, my wife would sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it.
> The other thing is if the true prices were given you would see how badly one of the "good guys" screwed over a newbie.



Speak it friend


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## Freqman1 (Sep 25, 2021)

Rusthound said:


> The majority of the time if you ask the seller they will tell they got more than they did. If you ask the buyer he paid less than he really did.  My greatest fear is if something happened to me, my wife would sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it.
> The other thing is if the true prices were given you would see how badly one of the "good guys" screwed over a newbie.



Personally I don’t think it’s anyone’s business what I paid for something. I’ve also never seen someone forced to buy something. With the www at your fingertips I’m having trouble figuring out why someone can’t do their homework and ask questions to keep from getting screwed? V/r Shawn


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## bikewhorder (Sep 25, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> It really has no bearing on what it will sell for anyway.
> That depends on what kind of mood I’m in on the day I decide to sell it.
> Usually, I’m in a pretty good mood.
> I’ll make you a good deal.😜



Sorry, but I have to call BS on this last statement.  I've never seen you post anything for sale. The bike stuff only seems to flow _into_ your collection. 😃


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## oskisan (Sep 25, 2021)

I'm with Marty on this one: Believe me, you don't want to know...


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## Handle Bar Hoarder (Sep 25, 2021)

oskisan said:


> I'm with Marty on this one: Believe me, you don't want to know...



OH yeah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! big money being spent for sure... if you are a high-end collector  my 2 cents..


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## catfish (Sep 25, 2021)

It's really no ones business what anyone pays for anything.


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## HARPO (Sep 25, 2021)

Tough crowd, lol!! 🤪


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## Boris (Sep 25, 2021)

I've paid too much, I've paid too little, I've charged too much, I didn't charge enough. I've had stuff given to me, and I've given stuff away. If I can get my hobby to pay for itself, well that's great. If not, no big deal. In it for the love of old bikes (and of course to annoy people on the CABE).


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Sep 25, 2021)

I think this train has fallen off the tracks.


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## 3-speeder (Sep 25, 2021)

So the op was about posting the price of what you paid for your new acquisition.  Referring to posting the great deals that he has gotten.  Not about removing sold prices.  That is another thread.  For me I just want to see pics of the bike and read about the back story of the bike.  Images and history.  I also love seeing the transformation from rough to showroom shine.  Beautiful workmanship.  But boasting about the great deal is just that, boastful.


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## mrg (Sep 25, 2021)

I don't usually blurt it out but I have no problem telling what I bought or sold something for if asks and as said nobody's forced to buy at whatever price your asking, some do for money some do it for fun, I just have a problem when making money is sole priority over the hobby especially when a bike falls to the fate of a butcher & parted for Money!


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## HARPO (Sep 26, 2021)

3-speeder said:


> So the op was about posting the price of what you paid for your new acquisition.  Referring to posting the great deals that he has gotten.  Not about removing sold prices.  That is another thread.  For me I just want to see pics of the bike and read about the back story of the bike.  Images and history.  I also love seeing the transformation from rough to showroom shine.  Beautiful workmanship.  But boasting about the great deal is just that, boastful.




Nope. Not _boasting_ about a great deal I might have gotten...showing how _lucky_ I was to have _gotten _the great deal. They don't come along that often. Boasting would be buying something for a dollar and telling everyone you sold it for a hundred dollars. 

From now on, I'll keep my "deals" to myself and just show a story behind it along with photos. I do this as a Hobby...not as a business. Just a friendly sharing of info that included pricing among like people. Guess I was wrong. 😕


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## Hukah (Sep 26, 2021)

Price is only a concern to the newbie.
Now that I know a decent CWC tank taps out at $200 and a good set of fenders can be gotten for a hundred or less there are fewer and fewer secrets.
I’m not sure I fully understood the question now:
I’m not interested in what someone paid for an item. Whatever deal we can make or get is to our advantage.
I’m interested in what the item(s) sells for.
There’s a difference.
Now if I can wrap my mind around prices of long spring seats I’ll be all set.


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## bikewhorder (Sep 26, 2021)

Obviously you're free to let everyone know what you paid if you want to. The thing that makes me SMH is when people on here ask how much you paid for something.  Of course we're all curious but its none of your business. Have some class.


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## sarmisluters (Sep 26, 2021)

bikewhorder said:


> Sorry, but I have to call BS on this last statement.  I've never seen you post anything for sale. The bike stuff only seems to flow _into_ your collection. 😃



Obviously you have never been to the Pike Swaps where Marty puts his parts down and a piranha frenzy ensues.
The Marty Drop is legendary !


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## bikejunk (Sep 26, 2021)

My least favorite question at a car show- referring to my antique motorcycles I usually just don't answer- more and more I'm getting that question posed rudely by fat little kids who watch too much TV


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## HEMI426 (Sep 26, 2021)

Should you feel guilty when you ask how much for a bike and they say $25 for what you know is a $2K bike. Should you school them and pay more or just grab the deal and walk away, I've done both.


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## kccomet (Sep 26, 2021)

I agree what you paid has little bearing on what it's worth, the selling price. I will tell friends  what I paid if asked, sometimes I'm embarrassed because I paid way too much. I've sold things for less than I paid, sometimes alot less. junk is just worth what it's worth to you at the time. if I get enjoyment in the hunt or find, and care for something  I like or love for awhile I'm happy. what I pay for something shouldn't be your business....I prob payed too much, just my take on things


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## the tinker (Sep 26, 2021)

Lots of the newer fellows just want to know what stuff should go for, so  they ask.  I don't mind telling friends and total strangers what I paid, because I realize that some are trying to get educated.  Asking price and final selling price are two different things. Nobody wants to pay too much, and if you're not educated, you can. That said, if we see something we really want, it's okay  to overpay, because it's there, it's now and "you want it."  Especially at swaps.  You can hold things in your hands and closely examine them. Plus, you have no shipping charges. The "What'd you pay for it?" question has to be taken in the context it's asked, who is asking, and the mood I'm in that particular day. Okay, since you asked: Here's what I bought at Memory Lane, yesterday. . . and the price. $$$$$$$$











First off, is this pedal. It was in the bottom of a bucket. It was $1.00. I've never seen another one like it. I'm going to screw it to the wall in my shop. I intend to make a separate post on this pedal, unless someone here can tell me what it's off. There are no markings. Rust and dents on the cap have taken their toll. I guarantee there is somebody out there that's looking for this pedal, or parts there of, and will easily shell out a $20. Sorry, it's going on the wall.


Next up, is this Hiawatha badge. I like trains. It's a clean badge and for the 10 bucks asking price, it'll look good on the shop wall, over the old work bench. On a good day, this badge could fetch $20. Next is the Monark springs. They're original 50's style, and they're like new. $25.00 is a fair price for these. Asking price was $10. I have a nice Monak springer with rusty springs that I will replace with these. 


These Roadmaster peaked fenders. No dents. The easily dented peak tops are perfect. I only have one bare bones frame left that I've kept. It's a Roadmaster. The price on these fenders was $15.00 Asking $30-40 would not been out of line for straight peaked fenders. 


Last is this Ranger frame.  I'm pretty much out of the hobby. I tell myself "No more bikes."  I was loading up my truck at M.L. and was about to leave for home, when I noticed a new guy had set up across from me.  I spotted this Schwinn straight bar frame with the correct fork and truss rods for $90.  That's a good price, a fair price. Next to it was this Ranger frame for $160. A little high. Wrong fork, but a nice badge and correct crank and chain-ring. Don't want no more bikes, but I'm a sucker for Rangers.  I offered $140, hoping he wouldn't take it.  He did. So, in the last minute, as I'm ready to pull out, I buy another project. Should have bought the Schwinn too.


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## Rust_Trader (Sep 26, 2021)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> searching for deals and finding them is part of the fun. in the past few months I have found 2 Schwinn B-6's with forebrakes and one with a locking springer. $150.00 and $300.00. it seems people want to get 300 bucks each for these brakes.
> 
> anyone who pays $1,000.00 for a brake lever is a moron. I don't care how much money you have. yeah, I'd keep that one a secret



Totally agree! Why pay 1k when you can buy this one for $10. They all work the same


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## GTs58 (Sep 26, 2021)

@HARPO  Keep on doing what you've been doing. I see no problem mentioning what an item was sold for and it's definitely interesting to know that I get screwed every time I buy something.  😜


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## Boris (Sep 26, 2021)

@the tinker Off the original topic, but your one pedal sure looks an awful lot like my Hawthorne pedals. Although I think mine have cross hatching on all 4 sides of each block. I can't get to them at the moment for comparison though. Everything else looks the same. Yours might have had a stamped plate that said Hawthorne on the indent side of the block. But not 100% sure about that last sentence. Gotta check.


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## SirMike1983 (Sep 26, 2021)

I suppose I never thought of it as being terribly relevant in terms of selling. I don't see a harm in listing what you paid, but the price for acquiring gets buried once you figure in the money on parts, or a basic "would-be" hourly rate for repair. If you buy a bike for $20 online, and then spend 10 hours fixing it up (let's assume you'd charge $30 per hour), plus $60 on tubes, tires, brake pads, and cables/housings, suddenly this is a $350+ plus investment. Your time is worth more than you think it is, and you'll spend more time than you think on most old bikes you acquire. At least after rebuilding Lord knows how many, that's my experience. So the original price gets buried as an up-front cost. If you want to list it, I think that's fine, but I don't get too twisted up if it's not listed or someone won't disclose it either. Frankly, I don't even remember how much I paid for most of my bikes. I can think of two of them, but it kind of washes away in the end.


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## SKPC (Sep 27, 2021)

I have no problem with a seller removing the sold price from a Cabe listing.  Was the price not listed when the ad was 1st posted?   Perhaps we are devolving in our ability to remember important things being swamped with life's many distractions.  IF the price is removed after the sale, does it matter or change your interest in old bicycles or parts?  Probably not.  Prices change.  I just picked up another old bicycle and the seller removed the price afterwards not my doing.  His right to do so I would say.  Those who saw the price in the ad to begin with and filed it in their brains would remember.  Oh, and don't we know that Schwinn bikes and parts are over rated and over maybe over-priced?.😋 What's another 1k really? The two riding Schwinns' I owned were both stolen so I pay no attention to AS stuff.  👮‍♂️🕵️‍♀️💵 💰⚖️👁️‍🗨️


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## Oilit (Sep 28, 2021)

Obviously, if I'm selling, my junk is priceless. If I'm buying, your junk is way overpriced. Hopefully we can reach a happy medium where neither one of us gets screwed too bad.
I paid $1,000.00 for a 1954 Schwinn Jaguar, my highest so far and probably over the market. I had just got my tax refund and the guy I bought from had got it in pretty good shape, not perfect but fresh grease, new tires, wheels trued. Considering what it takes to get it in that condition I can't complain too much, or maybe not at all. Condition on these old bikes varies a lot, and a lot of people don't seem to take that into account.
The fact that he took the trouble to get it to that condition says a lot. If he made money on it, good for him.


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## phantom (Sep 28, 2021)

Scenario #1
Buyer: That's a nice Phantom you have there, how much did you pay for it?
Seller: Was a real deal, I paid $600 as it sits.
Buyer: What are you asking:
Seller: $1,800
Buyer: What??? You @&^#$$ Do you think I was born yesterday

Scenario #2
Buyer: That's a nice Phantom you have there, how much did you pay for it?
Seller: Man I paid up on this one, $1,500 as it sits.
Buyer: What are you asking:
Seller: $1,800
Buyer: I'll give you $1,600 right now
Seller: What??? You @&^#$$ Do you think I was born yesterday


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## tacochris (Sep 28, 2021)

My 2 cents even though this looks like its been covered pretty well already:

Telling the price someone paid is subjective and will only cause tons of market confusion for the reasons below:

Example 1:
Most guys put something up for 50-100 or more than what they're actually willing to take for a bike/part they wanna sell because as we all know "you can always go down but you cant go up" in negotiations.  Well, say you have a guy who has no shortage of "folding money" and see's your slightly inflated price and says "I want that, I will pay that because I need it".  Now, the next guy who owns the same thing will think what yours sold at is rock bottom market pricing so, (just like you did) he will post it for 50-100 more than what he is willing to take (your original inflated sold pricing).  This goes on for long enough and it works its way into a super inflated price and people start to think that this common item is priceless.  The guy who originally bought the inflated price item wasnt that search-savy and had no idea the item he paid top top dollar for was a common item and if he would have waited longer he could have gotten it cheaper.

Example 2:
The bikes I buy I prefer to be rusty and crusty and I pay up for them to make sure i can save em the way they are.  Well other guys see my bikes and think "ugh thats the worst version of that bike and I wouldnt pay much for it at all because it needs so much work.  To me, it only needs grease and a butt in the seat so what I paid, is subjective to my personal taste.  I have paid 600 for bikes other guys wouldnt pay 200 for because I prefer them the exact way the other guy would hate to have it.


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## hzqw2l (Sep 28, 2021)

No problem sharing what I paid or what I sold for....

Doesn't really matter.  Money is worthless paper manipulated daily by central bankers.

Old bikes are a fixed commodity....only so many in circulation at any given time.


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## tacochris (Sep 28, 2021)

hzqw2l said:


> No problem sharing what I paid or what I sold for....
> 
> Doesn't really matter.  Money is worthless paper manipulated daily by central bankers.
> 
> Old bikes are a fixed commodity....only so many in circulation at any given time.



Tell that to my mortgage company.....Lol


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## stezell (Sep 28, 2021)

The only thing I get asked about is how much were your dogs by kids and I tell them they were adopted. 
Sean


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## hzqw2l (Sep 28, 2021)

tacochris said:


> Tell that to my mortgage company.....Lol



Lol.

They already know it.   They make money on the spread.  Doesn't matter to them if the money is deflated.  Their profit is built in.


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## tacochris (Sep 28, 2021)

hzqw2l said:


> Lol.
> 
> They already know it.   They make money on the spread.  Doesn't matter to them if the money is deflated.  Their profit is built in.



This is a machine we will never get out of and even if we converted over taco bell hot-sauce packets as currency, there would still be rap videos with guys pouring buckets of hot-sauce on the hood of Bentleys and telling me how much more of it he has than me.  
Yeah it sucks.....but its the machine we chose.


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## Archie Sturmer (Sep 28, 2021)

Maybe people do not state because they just do not remember, or have not cared to do the math anymore or for a while — does that *include* the tires, tubes and grips, don’t forget rim strips, 3-spokes, 2 ball bearings, the left pedal, labor and consumables, etc..

They might not have an approved cost accounting system, because, (wait for it), “_*it’s just a hobby*_”.


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## kreika (Sep 28, 2021)

I don’t care what someone paid. I’m interested in what someone was asking. You can google to your hearts content but if everyone blocks what the going rate is. How does one know where to start pricing wise. I guess the answer is….


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## Oilit (Sep 28, 2021)

kreika said:


> I don’t care what someone paid. I’m interested in what someone was asking. You can google to your hearts content but if everyone blocks what the going rate is. How does one know where to start pricing wise. I guess the answer is….
> 
> View attachment 1486412



Yeah, but I saw one just like it last week for $59.95 at Wal-Mart.


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## Boris (Sep 28, 2021)

tacochris said:


> This is a machine we will never get out of and even if we converted over taco bell hot-sauce packets as currency, there would still be rap videos with guys pouring buckets of hot-sauce on the hood of Bentleys and telling me how much more of it he has than me.
> Yeah it sucks.....but its the machine we chose.



More like, civilization thrust it upon itself out of inherent greed. Blame it on the snake, Adam, or Eve, your choice. I blame the snake.


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## tacochris (Sep 28, 2021)

Boris said:


> More like, civilization thrust it upon itself out of inherent greed. Blame it on the snake, Adam, or Eve, your choice. I blame the snake.



I would tend to agree.


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## mrg (Sep 28, 2021)

As far as removed prices it's kinda nice to know if I missed a killer deal ( as if I don't already spend too much time on the cabe ) or if it was more than I would have paid and I may have stuff I've been holding on to ( to use some day ) but at that price I'll let it go.


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## vincev (Sep 28, 2021)

price paid is no big deal.If I want or need it I will pay up. I've been taken a few times.That was my fault for not knowing more about what I bought. You only go around once.Grab the toys you like.I always made sure the bills were paid first.


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## phantom (Sep 28, 2021)

tacochris said:


> My 2 cents even though this looks like its been covered pretty well already:
> 
> Telling the price someone paid is subjective and will only cause tons of market confusion for the reasons below:
> 
> ...



Not always true.......You can negotiate up in price, that's what $$ OBO is for. I have put bikes worth $400 on CL at $150 OBO and they usually sell well over $500.  This is especially true in real estate right now. Guy one block away had four offers way over his listing price on day one and accepted the one with the best terms.


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## tacochris (Sep 28, 2021)

phantom said:


> Not always true.......You can negotiate up in price, that's what $$ OBO is for. I have put bikes worth $400 on CL at $150 OBO and they usually sell well over $500.  This is especially true in real estate right now. Guy one block away had four offers way over his listing price on day one and accepted the one with the best terms.



Yeah but I live in Houston....the cheap-skate capitol of the world.  haha  If you put anything up for $150 obo you're gonna get a trade offer for a busted microwave or $50 bucks and you drive it to them.


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## phantom (Sep 28, 2021)

tacochris said:


> Yeah but I live in Houston....the cheap-skate capitol of the world.  haha  If you put anything up for $150 obo you're gonna get a trade offer for a busted microwave or $50 bucks and you drive it to them.



Yeah, but smart sellers _always_ have a better offer pending, 😜


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## tacochris (Sep 28, 2021)

phantom said:


> Yeah, but smart sellers _always_ have a better offer pending, 😜



I usually only pull out that trick when someone is dicking me around...haha  Kind of a "sh&t or get off the pot" type maneuver.


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## Oilit (Sep 28, 2021)

Boris said:


> More like, civilization thrust it upon itself out of inherent greed. Blame it on the snake, Adam, or Eve, your choice. I blame the snake.



It never pays to let the little head do the thinking. At least not all of it.


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## oldfart36 (Sep 29, 2021)

It's really no one's business but mine what I pay for a bike. Many of my survivors have come from original owners that really don't know the bike world.


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