# Unknown, help needed please.



## dnc1 (Sep 24, 2018)

I recently spent the day with my friend Jaume in his workshop in Mallorca.
While I was there a friend brought in this conundrum, I think it's 1920's to 1940's, French or Italian, other than that I'm at a loss for ideas.
Ostensibly it's a fairly conventional 'roadster' type bicycle with typical period details.....













However, it has one very distinctive feature, it has a box section midway down the main frame, into which is inserted a vertically mounted leaf-spring, which serves as a sprung seat post.....








I didn't get a photo of the spring, it was made of four leaves, with a sprung saddle.

I'm familiar with the Vialle frère's 'Velastic' design and it's Italian 'Sintesi' variant from the 1920's, but this is different, with it's tubular, not monocoque frame.
There are holes for a head badge and a serial number on one of the rear dropouts.

Has anyone ever seen one of these before, or have any ideas?

Any help much appreciated, thanks, Darren.


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## juvela (Sep 24, 2018)

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Hello Darren,

Thank you for sharing this find.

Agree it must hail from the interwar period.

There appear to be markings on the arm of the coaster brake.  Have you been able to make them out?

The bicycle's crank arms look to have markings, if not writing at least symbols.  Are you able to see them clearly?

The bottom bracket spindle is hollow on the end; is it hollow all the way through?

Bottom bracket lockring appears it may have markings on its outer face.

The feature cut of the head lugs resembles a pattern NERVEX offered at one time.  It is similar to nr. 86 (not an exact match).

Are you able to read the markings on the hub wing nuts?  Looks like it may be C S E.

Seat stay cap treatment suggests France.   If headset & bottom bracket thread and tubing diameters metric that would eliminate Italy as an origin.

Welded stem/bar set may be Schierano.  Domenico Schierano was an Italian professional racer active in the teens and twenties of the past century.  Stem and bar sets resembling the one on the bicycle were produced with his name well into the 1960's.  Do not know if he began the company which produced them or if he licensed his name.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domenico_Schierano

If bicycle from France the stem/bar set may be Centrix.  They were most active in this era and closed in 1962.





If you could post the spacing of the headplate fasteners it might help a reader to make an identity suggestion...
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## dnc1 (Sep 24, 2018)

Thanks @juvela.
I currently don't have any more photos; I'll ask Jaume to send me some more detail shots when he can.
Unfortunately, I'm back home in the U.K. now.


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## juvela (Sep 25, 2018)

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...something to explore further upon your next Palma sojurn...

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## dnc1 (Sep 25, 2018)

Unfortunately, for me, that's a year away!


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## juvela (Sep 25, 2018)

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...well, one certainly would not wish to go in the off season, now would they?  

in your daguerreotype request to Jaume you might ask for some drive sides including closeups of chainset and head.

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## dnc1 (Sep 26, 2018)

First batch of photos in, more detail to follow......
















"Frame number" is 33, or is that a part number for the dropout part?
Frame looks well made, initially there was some discussion as to whether it might be a home-brewed 'special' but I think it looks too well made for that.
The shortest spring section is missing its forked end.
I wonder if Vialle or Sintesi ever built a tubular framed model or prototype later on?
I can't find any reference to this anywhere, these are two of their 1920's adverts......








The positioning of the leaf-spring box is closest to the second example I think.


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## juvela (Sep 26, 2018)

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Thank you for the new information and imagery.

There is a letter G on the outer face of the left dropout, possibly to indicate _gauche _which would be consistent with a french (or Walloon) origin.

Treatment of expander bolt seat for the head on the stem is consistent with the Centrix design.

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## dnc1 (Sep 26, 2018)

More photos, rear hub.....












Chain set.....








Fork details.....












Leaf spring leaves.....








Handlebars, seat post end section and remains of saddle.....


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## dnc1 (Sep 26, 2018)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Thank you for the new information and imagery.
> 
> ...



Thanks, hadn't noticed the 'G', I'll ask if there's a corresponding 'D' on the other dropout.


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## juvela (Sep 26, 2018)

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Rear hub appears Torpedo brand.

Here is one on an unknown french _porteur _, in this case combined with a 3V gear block.










Complete machine discussed in this Tonton thread -

https://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=22722&hilit=frein+a+retropedalage

Frame's headlugs are of a pattern similar to those of subject bicycle.

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## juvela (Sep 26, 2018)

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_Muchas Gracias por Jaume _ for all of these excellent detail images.  

regarding chainset -

the round chainwheel nuts must feature splines to keep them from turning when the square-headed bolts are tightened.

Etablissements A. Haubtmann ( SOLIDA brand chainsets) offered a chainwheel of this pattern for at least several decades.

In the advert below the chainwheel on the left is of a thread-on design which affixes to a threaded flange on the crank arm.  A lockring similar to one found on a bottom bracket assembly secures the chainwheel to the arm.





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## juvela (Oct 11, 2018)

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Here is hoping that both Jaume _y_ _la bicycletta  _be on high ground...






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## dnc1 (Oct 12, 2018)

Unfortunately Mallorca, and mainland Spain are frequently plagued by such events. I understand 9 people were killed in the floods this week at the eastern end of the island.


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## BradL (Oct 19, 2018)

This may or may not help, but this is a photo I found in a small book I have concerning the history of bicycles (La Bicicletta by Fermi Galbiati and Nino Ciravegna).  It’s described as the Gran Turismo model by Officine Sintesi in 1924.


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## dnc1 (Oct 19, 2018)

Many thanks @BradL.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that I was familiar with the "Sintesi" and "Vialle Freres" variants with the monocoque, pressed steel  frames, but that photo is new to me.
I've only ever seen roadster style handlebars on these machines before, never a drop-barred example.
Thanks for the book information  too but I'm unsure if that date is correct, will have to recheck original patent date. Interesting!


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## dnc1 (Oct 19, 2018)

Original patent dates to 1923/24 so the date quoted is probably correct.
I'm still thinking the mystery bicycle in question is a later example, or possibly a third licensee of the original  patent.


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## dnc1 (Jan 13, 2019)

Just received these great photos from Jaume.
The machine has been sympathetically renovated retaining the patina.
It's certainly interesting and I'm guessing possibly unique.....
















I’m hoping he'll tell me how it rides soon.


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## juvela (Jan 13, 2019)

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Images not showing for me.

Are others able to view them?

Perhaps a browser issue at me end...

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## 3-speeder (Jan 13, 2019)

Viewing the images of the completed machine here while sipping my coffee. Hope they come up for you. Cool looking bike. Never seen one like that


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## juvela (Jan 13, 2019)

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Reloaded and now they are showing up here.

Thank you for the update.

What material are the handgrips?

The ferrule is distinctive; evidently present to obviate crumbling/cracking.   Makes me think _bois._

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## dnc1 (Jan 13, 2019)

Yes, lightly painted/varnished "bois".


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## juvela (Jan 13, 2019)

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Luv lurnin' how far back this suspension idea goes...

No doubt, many folk in the 1980's thought the "beamer" bikes a new design!   






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## Roger Henning (Jan 14, 2019)

The Softrides came out in about 1993/4 and I have one of the preproduction bikes built by Paul Barkley and a 1995 production bike.  The red one is the Paul Barkley bike.  Roger


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## Sevenhills1952 (Jan 14, 2019)

Ouch! That one little clamp snaps and what a crack up!

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## juvela (Jan 14, 2019)

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The same could be said for any number of fittings on a "normal" machine...


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## dnc1 (Jan 14, 2019)

Roger Henning said:


> The Softrides came out in about 1993/4 and I have one of the preproduction bikes built by Paul Barkley and a 1995 production bike.  The red one is the Paul Barkley bike.  Roger
> 
> View attachment 933133
> 
> View attachment 933134



Never seen one up close, only in books.
Are the springs/seat supports carbon fibre?
What do they ride like?
I really like the 5-spoke wheeled example.


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## Roger Henning (Jan 14, 2019)

They ride really nice if you pedal in circles but if you stomp on the pedals you will pogo/bounce yourself a lot.  The beams were made by a company named Alsop and are a plastic but I do not know more about the details of the plastic used.  The beam consists of 2 beams laminated together with a rubber section between them to control the rebound.  The red bike I rode across the USA when I went with friends on a tour called PAC Tour Northern led by Lon Haldeman and his wife Susan Notorangelo who are well known RAAM veterans.  Still have both bikes but do not ride them as much recently.  Part of the reason is I will be 70 next week not in my 40s anymore.  Roger


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## dnc1 (Jan 15, 2019)

Roger Henning said:


> They ride really nice if you pedal in circles but if you stomp on the pedals you will pogo/bounce yourself a lot.  The beams were made by a company named Alsop and are a plastic but I do not know more about the details of the plastic used.  The beam consists of 2 beams laminated together with a rubber section between them to control the rebound.  The red bike I rode across the USA when I went with friends on a tour called PAC Tour Northern led by Lon Haldeman and his wife Susan Notorangelo who are well known RAAM veterans.  Still have both bikes but do not ride them as much recently.  Part of the reason is I will be 70 next week not in my 40s anymore.  Roger



Thanks Roger, I'm guessing this mystery machine may be a very bouncy ride too.
Always interesting to hear how these alternative designs actually ride.
Darren.


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## bulldog1935 (Jan 15, 2019)

Pretty good summation Darren, and probably more-so.  Roger's bike designer attacked the spring rate and damping empirically.  Yours has a spring with no damping and best guess is the maker stopped at one trial in the "and error" process.  
Way cool collectible, though, and deserves a showing on a bumpy road group ride.  
Those of us who love and will never go "past" steel love it because of inherent ride.  A good steel frame uses mash on climbing, setting up a natural frequency in the rear triangles that pushes the bike forward, making it feel lighter when climbing.  This is what Jan Heine calls planing.


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## juvela (Jan 25, 2019)

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The forum just had another thread begun on a vintage saddle suspension machine with lots of _bois -_

_https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/how-do-you-like-this.146301/_

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## juvela (Oct 31, 2020)

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one more example -









						Wanted: Vialle Freres bicyclette elastique | Wanted: Bikes, Trikes, Parts, Accessories, Etc.
					

Ever since I stumbled across this, I've wanted one. (Any of their similar models would do as well.)    Image source: Copake Auction, April 18, 2015.   I'm willing to consider anything in any condition, but I'd prefer one that is as complete as possible, so long as the basic parts are there and...




					thecabe.com
				





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## dnc1 (Oct 31, 2020)

Yeah, I saw this @juvela.
Sounds like he wants to build his own version.
Fairly easily done I'm thinking.
All you need is a ladies bicycle and a leaf spring from an old car!
And some welding/fabrication skills.


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