# Cleveland Welding or Elgin?



## rustndust (Dec 28, 2021)

I had an elderly woman give this to me this weekend, she said her husband 'restored' it 40 years ago and it just sat in the basement.

The best I can tell is that its a mix of parts, the chainguard is obviously from a Colson, the bars are later Wald, the tires are Carlisle w/w, both hubs have fins, the rear rack is Elgin, the fender braces are modern, and the BB cups are too small and loose in the frame. Plus it looks like it was painted with 10 coats of Rustoleum. 
But it was free. 

For laughs I pumped up the tires and tried to ride it, the thing pedals like a ton of bricks. The BB is a mess, lots of crunching going on in there. The headset is newer wald but functional, the rear hub works but kicks back severely when braking, and the front hub is made of pot metal and cracked in half in the center, likely only being held together by the bearings and cones. Both hubs are marked Musselman.
I had to remove the cg to pedal the thing, its brackets just don't match the frame, but the good thing is I've got a Colson in the shed that can use the CG. 
It had a small Elgin headbadge but after looking at a bunch of pics, I don't see an older Elgins with this frame. I can find no numbers anywhere on the frame, the BB shell is clean and has no numbers, the headtube or dropouts are also without any stamped numbers. The pedals are late model reflectorized models more suited on a 70's three speed than this bike. 

Did CWC make any Elgins? 
If not, I've got a bunch of Elgin bits and pieces to use on another bike. 
Something tells me it was built with a combination of spare parts a long time ago. 
The paint is old, its got cracks and checking all over it. 
The seat is covered in vinyl, with almost no padding, the bell on the bars don't work, and the tires are likely too dry rotted to use. They look like they've been sitting flat for decades right next to a huge boiler.


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## Boris (Dec 29, 2021)

You got yourself one heckuva free bike there! Great bell too.
No help on the frame, but definitely a CW Western Flyer chainring


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## Boris (Dec 29, 2021)

Deleted.


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## tripple3 (Dec 29, 2021)

Welcome to the CABE!
Frame characteristics:
How the BB is welded, shape of seat stays, head tube junctions, etc....
It looks CWC to me, with a Colson guard.
Have fun making it better than you got it;
the best is yet to come.😀
Better pics please.🙂


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## HARPO (Dec 29, 2021)

Please send a ton of photos! We'd like to see the bike from all angles, plus some closeups. Nice that she gave it to you!! 🙂


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## Krakatoa (Dec 29, 2021)

Chainring is CWC for Western Flyer...

@fordmike65


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## fordmike65 (Dec 29, 2021)

Krakatoa said:


> Chainring is CWC for Western Flyer...
> 
> @fordmike65



Looking like a Western Flyer badged CWC doublebar with a 38+ Colson "Turkey wing" guard.


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## Archie Sturmer (Dec 29, 2021)

Looks like an early model, (based more on the _single_ picture than wordy description); see truss tube, where it meets head tube.

The ten coats of Rust-Oleum looks nice, and might be reason why the serial number cannot be seen on the bottom bracket crank hanger.

There are threads about when Sears switched from the smaller Elgin badges to the taller, sometime about 1935-36, but CWC-built Elgin does not seem too likely.


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## 1936PEDALER (Dec 29, 2021)

Before and after 36 CWC


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## rustndust (Dec 29, 2021)

I tore the bike down this morning. 
The  rear rack is junk, its rusted through in over 20 spots and has been filled with filler. The rear reflector is an old Lucas glass reflector off of a really old English bike. After looking at ton of pics, I think it too is Elgin.

The bottom bracket had modern Wald cups, a pair of Torrington bearings, with 'H' type stamped on the cages. 
The cups were set in place with shims. The cups are 1/8" too small in diameter to press into the frame. The bottom bracket shell is larger than what is on a modern bike. The bb shell doesn't look damaged or wallowed out, its just larger. I couldn't find another shell here with this size ID or ID.

The rims are not a simple drop center pattern, they have an extra shape to them, they're more rounded and not as deep overall as most I've seen. The rims are in fair shape, there's a bit of pitting that's been painted over but its fixable. 
Both wheels will need to be respoked, the rear hub is worn out pretty bad, the braking surface inside is badly scored, and the front hub is broken. both hubs are Musselman. 
From what I can tell by looking around on the web, a CWC, wouldn't have had finned, 'Musselman Air Cooled' hubs, but that's just an observation. The rear wheel has original long spoke nipples and old spokes that were painted silver, the front wheel has a mix of new and old spokes. 

The bars are branded Wald, and likely were new when this was done. 
The stem also looks new, but its not like a Schwinn style stem, its only polished on the top surface, the rest of the stem is rough cast.

The crank arms and sprocket are both painted silver, the sprocket has moderate wear but is serviceable. Neither appears to have been chrome plated, they look more like maybe nickle plate or just zinc or cadmium plating.  
The bearing cones are likely original and well worn, they will need to be replaced. (Common, Wald cones won't fit, the threading is different and the overall thickness or depth is much different. The right cone is 3/16" thicker than most and the left side has a flange on it that fits over an inner shoulder.

The seat tube is 7/8" ID, the seat post clamp is brazed to the frame, its no removable.

The kickstand works but seems to flip too far forward, it holds the bike up but the tire is just barely off the ground The stand is straight, the pins fit the frame holes snugly but the holes in the frame seem like they're too far rearward. If not, there's something missing from either the frame or the stand.  Its as if the holes in the frame are 3/8" too far back in the frame tabs. 
The chain is in  bad shape, lots of loose links and a badly worn rear sprocket. 

I'm guessing this was a rusty old clunker that someone painted up in a hurry. 
It was barely rideable, but a new set of hubs, some bb parts, a good chain, and some fresh grease and it'll be useable. 

Looking at the inside of the BB shell and steer tube, the bike was a darker red, with almost a purple hint to it originally. 
Right now its more of a tomato or fire red. 

The frame joints are crude, there's nearly no finishing work done after it was brazed. There are drips, holes, and pits in all the welds. 

There are no truss rods, and the fork has no truss supports at the crown. There is also not much room at the top thread wise to add a top bracket either.  The Wald headset just barely fits on the threads. There is no space for anything else.  The stack height is below the top bearing cup upper rim, and adding any washers to raise it would mean the threads are too short. 
If the paint on the steer tube didn't match the paint inside the bb I'd be thinking that the forks were from a different bike. 
The forks have open ends. Not just drilled holes like on a Colson I've got hanging out in the shed.

The cg is destined for that Colson and since the brackets on this cg are fixed in place, it will never fit this frame. It sits way high above the sprocket, so there's little doubt that the cg doesn't belong. 

I'm thinking that the guy must of had a similar year Elgin which he took the wheels, seat, rear rack, and maybe the fenders from. 
Possibly a ladies model that he used for parts?
Its hard to say since I didn't live here then and never met the guy. 
I was only there since another neighbor had asked me if I knew anything about old oil furnaces, the old woman's furnace had run out of fuel due to a clogged filter. Another neighbor had replaced the filter, but couldn't get it to draw fuel. It turned out that an old fuel gauge float had settled over the fuel outlet. I was able to fish the old brass float out and get it going again. 
I put a new gauge in the tank that another neighbor had as well. 
She called me this morning to tell me the heat was working fine and that she found another box of parts.

In that box is a badly battered Western Flyer badge, a clamp on rear kickstand, another saddle, with no padding but longer springs, a 5/8" seat post with a brass shim, a loose 'Elgin' brake arm, some rusty broken spokes, a stripped out front axle, and a pair of blown out BB cups. There's also another shorter set of similar cranks. There's also a well worn New Departure rear hub and a rusty older front hub with no axle.  I'm thinking its the left over bits from the two bikes from when ever this was all done. 

The paint on the bike is fair at best, it will buff up pretty decent but its the wrong color, and I think its way too bright for a bike this age. The paint on the fenders is better than the frame but the fenders feel real heavy, as if they're full of filler. the bottom of the fenders are rusty and painted over. I'm thinking that the best course of action is to strip it all down and start over, but it'll never be a show piece.
I would like to make it a sound rider though.


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## 1936PEDALER (Dec 29, 2021)

Definitely a mut.
 They may have cut down girls forks and just didn’t leave enough threads.
The frame looks like my CWC which is similar to the Colson. Even the forks are similar. My fork tab holds the truss bracket, but my Colson forks are peaked at the top?


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## rustndust (Dec 29, 2021)

The forks are smooth, much like a Schwinn. 
They don't look cut, if they were, its been a long time and a lot of use since, and the steer tube matches the color inside the BB shell.

There's some old headset parts in the box on which the top cone is very thin, and the lock ring has only a key tab on it, when assembled, the bearing, cone, and lock keyed plate are all below the level of the cup. With the Wald, the cone is thick, and incorporates a thumb ring, then a keyed washer, then the nut. Only about 1/3 of the nut engages the threads. The crown race is also not original, its thinner than the original by half but they got spacers under it so the cup doesn't drag the fork crown I suppose. If the crown race was any lower the cup would hit the fender tab. Its pretty close even with the shims. 
I think the bottom line is that I need to find some original parts, the modern Wald stuff just don't work on this. 
I don't want to turn it into a full restoration though, its certainly not that kind of bike, but I will make it ride able again with as many original parts as I can find in my junk drawers here. 
Was Western Flyer the only badge to go on this type of frame?


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## fordmike65 (Dec 29, 2021)

1936PEDALER said:


> Definitely a mut.
> They may have cut down girls forks and just didn’t leave enough threads.
> The frame looks like my CWC which is similar to the Colson. Even the forks are similar. My fork tab holds the truss bracket, but my Colson forks are peaked at the top?



'36 Colson fork crown is smooth. '37 and on have a slight ridge(peak)


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## Archie Sturmer (Dec 29, 2021)

I believe that Colson (lug frames), Westfield (earlier), and Iver Johnson may have all used undersized bottom bracket cups and hardware, (but different sizes from each other).


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## rustndust (Dec 29, 2021)

The bb on this bike is larger than most. It large enough that a standard Wald BB almost falls in.

A few things stick in my mind about this bike. 
The steer tube and the inside of the bb shell have the same color paint, sort of a burgundy purple color. 
I was thinking that the wheels were off a different bike because of the Musselman/Elgin finned hubs, but when I removed the tires, the inside of the rims are also the same color as the steer tube and bb, the cg is black under the red, so it came from a different bike, and there's no way to make it fit the frame with the given holes and brackets. The way it sits on the bike in the pic is the lowest possible position.
The headbadge screws are 2 5/8" spacing. 

The frame shape does match up to many other CW frames with the closer top tubes. 
I've been over this thing with a fine tooth comb and here's no numbers, but the bottom of the bottom bracket has a bunch of small punch marks all over the bottom, but it don't spell out anything and the marks appear to be just random. 
What I'm seeing so far is:
The frame and sprocket appear to be CWC/ Western Flyer
The wheels both have Elgin hubs but they were painted the same color as the rest of the frame and forks. 
The seat could also be from an old Elgin.
The bars and stem are both newer and don't belong,

The part I'm having trouble getting past is the fact that the rims, frame and forks all have the same original wine color. 
If the wheels came from the other bike, what are the chances they were painted the right color to match the CWC frame and fork? 
If the bike is CW, what are the chances it would have had finned Musselman hubs? 
If the wheels were a different color, then the thought that they came from another bike but they match. The red paint came off pretty easy, the base paint was wine colored with white pinstripes. I stripped the rims down and started to fill in all the rust pitting. 
I'm thinking that the whole thing is going to need new paint in order to make it all match.


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## J-wagon (Dec 30, 2021)

rustndust said:


> The part I'm having trouble getting past is the fact that the rims, frame and forks all have the same original wine color.
> If the wheels came from the other bike, what are the chances they were painted the right color to match the CWC frame and fork?



Maybe finned hubs were swapped onto rims? Should be a date code on musselman rear hub shell non drive side.


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## rustndust (Dec 30, 2021)

J-wagon said:


> Maybe finned hubs were swapped onto rims? Should be a date code on musselman rear hub shell non drive side.



It possible but if they were, its been a long time ago judging by how rusty the spokes were.
When I took the front wheel apart, the already cracked hub pretty much crumbled in my hands. The pot metal was so badly broken down it crumbled like stale bread. It was originally broke both in the middle, between the left two fins, and both flanges had lost several spoke holes in a cluster that had been epoxied back in place. The wheel bearing turned it was so messed up. The tires still had their flashing nipples on the tread but the rear tire was yellowed badly on the left side. The tires, rear rack, and bars have found a new home already, the cg will get saved for a Colson in the shed.
Its hard to tell what shape the bike was in when the former owner got it, but by the look of the work done on it he wasn't likely capable of swapping hubs. The spokes were rusted to the point of being thread thin some areas.


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## Adamtinkerer (Jan 1, 2022)

Another possibility, the bike could've been cobbled together in the '50s from then-junk parts. No connections between CWC and Sears, those hubs were swapped in, when they were likely in much better condition! And CWC built under many badges, their house brand being Road Master, but also Speed King, Hawthorne, etc.


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## Rivnut (Jan 1, 2022)

A Riviera friend of mine just gave me a bunch of bicycle stuff (30# worth) from his late father’s shop. Two large coffee cans full of BB cups and bearings. Send me some dimensions and I’ll send you a set ( for the cost of shipping) if I have any that match.

Ed


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## rustndust (Jan 1, 2022)

Anything is possible I suppose, but if it were done early on, why swap what was likely ND hubs for a pair of Elgin hubs? I don't see the benefit, and the front was definitely a downgrade considering how it broke apart. 
Were these finned Musselman hubs only used on Elgin/JC Higgins bikes? I found it odd that its got a Musselman brake arm, not 'Elgin'.  Most that I've seen all had Elgin or JCH scripted brake arms.

I did find a Roadmaster badge in the one box but didn't equate it to this bike because its got blue paint on the back of it, and this bike doesn't show any signs of every being blue. The screw spacing fits though.


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## rustndust (Jan 1, 2022)

Rivnut said:


> A Riviera friend of mine just gave me a bunch of bicycle stuff (30# worth) from his late father’s shop. Two large coffee cans full of BB cups and bearings. Send me some dimensions and I’ll send you a set ( for the cost of shipping) if I have any that match.
> 
> Ed



I'll keep that in mind.  I have a guy locally who says he has a pile of bike parts that came from a bike shop that was around back then. He bought out the remaining inventory of the place in the 70's for his own use and thinks he may have something to fit. 
I'll take a few measurements as well. I tried the two blown out cups that were in the can but those are also too small, they're closer than what was in it but still not right. They may have been out of what ever bike he stripped out to put this together way back when.


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## J-wagon (Jan 1, 2022)

rustndust said:


> I found it odd that its got a Musselman brake arm, not 'Elgin'. Most that I've seen all had Elgin or JCH scripted brake arms.



Bike hackers have own rhyme and reason.


rustndust said:


> a loose 'Elgin' brake arm



That Elgin arm wants to go back onto the fins


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## rustndust (Jan 2, 2022)

Were all 'Musselman' arms only on smooth hubs?
Looking at the many pics online, I see three styles of 'Musselman' hubs, smooth, finned, and one with sort of a rounded raised center. 

Would a CWC built bike have had a Musselman hub? 
Or should it have a pair of New Departure hubs?


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