# 1936 Bianchi "FOLGORE" Pista?? on eBay



## corbettclassics (Aug 28, 2019)

There is a 1936 Bianchi on eBay that the seller insists is a "TRACK" frame.  I have been in touch with him and I personally don't believe this is an actual track frame. He feels I need to research more to understand what a track frame is.  I actually had one of these myself yrs gone by.  I'm pretty sure I know what a track frame is and what a road frame is but ....

I really believe this frame to be a "Road" version because it has the facing forward dropouts.  ALL track bikes that I know of have rear facing dropouts for a reason.

Any Bianchi experts here to chime in and say their thoughts?  

------>  I do know that forward facing dropouts would never be allowed on any track in actual competition.

TRACK  ....... or Road model ???????? ( bottom bracket seems too low for me as well for an actual track frame )

Also - any thoughts on these decals??  Correct or .....


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## rollfaster (Aug 28, 2019)

@cyclingday @Freqman1 @petritl


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## Freqman1 (Aug 28, 2019)

I'm no expert but I think its a road bike and decals look more '50s to me. V/r Shawn


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## corbettclassics (Aug 28, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> I'm no expert but I think its a road bike and decals look more '50s to me. V/r Shawn



That’s what I thought.    I’ll post pictures of mine so you can see the difference in decals etc.   I know that I really researched mine in depth before I restored it.

 Maybe someone else can message him as well to let him know that he has a road frame/fixie.

It looks like a nice bike otherwise!


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## cyclingday (Aug 28, 2019)

Yeah, I agree.
The wheelbase is too long to be a track frame.
Most track bikes have that rear wheel practically touching the seat tube, for torque.


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## corbettclassics (Aug 29, 2019)

Here's my '30's Bianchi Track iron:







 

 







I never had tires on it but you can see that if there was then the tire is closer to the seat tube.  Plus - REAL Track frames have rear facing dropouts!

I also think his is more '50's as it has chrome lugs and I thought they didn't have the chrome lugs until the 50's.  I could be wrong but all my study and research lead me to believe his is a little later than he claims but definitely his is not a true track machine with those forward facing dropouts. It would never be allowed in real competition!

Hmmm ......

=========


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## Freqman1 (Aug 29, 2019)

I would agree that the bike on EBay is later than '36. I believe chrome lugs may have started about '40-41 but would have to check that. I remember reading something about the seat post binders as well when researching my bike and I think this may be an indicator of a later bike but not positive. What really surprises me, about Bianchi especially, is that you can find folks that know a lot from about 1980 on up but finding someone that can really speak vintage is tough. I had to use Google translate more than a few times to get the info I wanted. This is the oldest bicycle manufacturer in the world and you think there would be a more comprehensive history than what exists. Lastly I would like to know what the serial number is on that machine. V/r Shawn


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## juvela (Aug 29, 2019)

-----

Blades appear _pista._

_-----_


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## 747Pirate (May 30, 2021)

Hi guys
I’m new to the site but around on several others. This is a really interesting post to me as I am presently restoring several prewar Bianchis.
what many of you have said is bang on 100% correct but.... you have to suspend everything you know then start again when it comes to these old Bianchis.
First off , the chromed lugs. I wouldn’t expect these to have been chromed originally but the frame has been refinished. So they look correct in their design for that era but I think should be painted.
The rear dropouts are exactly right for a 1930s Bianchi - I know them inside out. The question is whether these would be on a pista/track bike. Possibly is all I can say - Bianchi did some pretty weird things. Did you know that some of Fausto Coppi’s track bikes had Cambio Corsa rear dropouts , axles and chopped down quick releases??? So I wouldn’t rule it out.
The forks look very much more pista shaped than road. The fork crown looks early 30s - much more like the M series than later models.  And the lack of mudguard lugs is notable as is the lack of any other lugs like oiler , oil filler etc which I would expect to see on a road bike.
Of course the elephant in the room is the refinished frame. It’s impossible to tell what has been done and whether the forks are original to the frame etc.
integrated headset is correct as is the seatpost bolt but these were in production for decades
Without frame numbers I can’t be date specific. The restorer has done a good job in terms of colour and crest decals (down tube decal is later) but I would prob only expect chromed dropouts although if a track special i can‘t be definitively correct . This is a tricky one to say the least
I’ll include a couple of pics of a 1937 Bianchi road bike I’m doing for reference.
Cheers
Mike


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## labile (Mar 9, 2022)

Until 1952/53 Bianchi track bikes all have facing forward rear dropouts. They were pretty similar to the ones used on high end sport bikes and mid 1930s pre Cambio Corsa dropouts. 
The frameset itself is legit, the serial number would be helpful to understand if the 1936 claimed is correct or not. Fork is not original. 
The restoration work (from colour choice to decals) is totally wrong. The majority of components are good for a mid 50s bike, not a late 30s one.

@corbettclassics I highly doubt yours is an original Bianchi track bike, sorry.


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## Freqman1 (Mar 9, 2022)

I've seen a lot of different shades of Celeste. I would like to repaint my '47 Folgore which I know has the wrong hue on it. Anyone have a good match for this year/era? Thanks, Shawn


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## kccomet (Mar 9, 2022)

yea that celeste is all over the place in shade depending on year. the first two pics is a folgore, the last a 61 specialissima


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## kccomet (Mar 9, 2022)

edit from previous the last pic is a campione del mondo, this is a 61 specialissima. don't want you bianchi freaks calling me out. last year I couldn't spell bianchi , now I are educated


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## corbettclassics (Mar 10, 2022)

labile said:


> Until 1952/53 Bianchi track bikes all have facing forward rear dropouts. They were pretty similar to the ones used on high end sport bikes and mid 1930s pre Cambio Corsa dropouts.
> The frameset itself is legit, the serial number would be helpful to understand if the 1936 claimed is correct or not. Fork is not original.
> The restoration work (from colour choice to decals) is totally wrong. The majority of components are good for a mid 50s bike, not a late 30s one.
> 
> @corbettclassics I highly doubt yours is an original Bianchi track bike, sorry.



Labile - you are correct that it is not "original" ...  it is "restored".  I also know where Frank Duesenberg's Bianchi Track bike is that he raced in the late 20's.  And "no it doesn't have forward facing dropouts" as you suggest > note all 6-Day TRACK bikes had "rear facing dropouts" for a reason and they figured that out in TOC ..... unless the Italians didn't actually figure that out ... uh until the 1950's you say!  But I never really followed Bianchi Italian bikes anyway for a reason.  

It was very difficult to research during my restoration.  I did research for several years before deciding on the livery it has now.  Is it 100% correct?  Probably not but the Italian I worked with in Italy who knew 1930's era Bianchi's helped me decide on this old 1930's "original varnish" decal set that came straight from an Italian collector. I wasn't too worried about it because it was fine with me how it was going to look. The decal set I used is an "original set" and not a reproduction.  I was never really a fan of this Bianchi anyway so I sold this bike as soon as I finished it ( 15 - 20 yrs ago now ).

Note: All my research on these early Bianchi's regarding the Celeste green states they were really painted a blue color and over time the blue faded out to create the shade of green they now call Celeste.  They were never painted this green originally back in the day.  It was a blue that faded to the green that was created.  This is what my research turned up when I tried to find out how Celeste green originally came to be ( hopefully you can advise us with some catalogue information showing the color names and when it started etc ).  I can't really remember the first time they started painting these Bianchi bikes light green and calling them Celeste color ( again I hope you can advise us some more on this as it's always nice to learn more ).  I'm sure the color I created on mine is not 100% accurate but then again I wasn't very intrigued by Bianchi's.  If I was to restore this bike again then I would probably change the color slightly but use the same livery.

I think out of the 135 or more Track bikes I've collected that this was the only Italian Track bike I ever owned. I really prefer the Track bikes that dominated the 6-Day races throughout history.


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## bulldog1935 (Mar 10, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> I've seen a lot of different shades of Celeste. I would like to repaint my '47 Folgore which I know has the wrong hue on it. Anyone have a good match for this year/era? Thanks, Shawn



Shawn, Tad @petritl has matched this paint before.  I think you know him off the forum - would be worth a contact.  








						What bike did you ride today? | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

First real ride on my '42 New World since it's overhaul. Rode real nice. Things are starting to green-up here in mid-Michigan




					thecabe.com


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## labile (Mar 10, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> Labile - you are correct that it is not "original" ...  it is "restored".  I also know where Frank Duesenberg's Bianchi Track bike is that he raced in the late 20's.  And "no it doesn't have forward facing dropouts" as you suggest > note all 6-Day TRACK bikes had "rear facing dropouts" for a reason and they figured that out in TOC ..... unless the Italians didn't actually figure that out ... uh until the 1950's you say!  But I never really followed Bianchi Italian bikes anyway for a reason.
> 
> It was very difficult to research during my restoration.  I did research for several years before deciding on the livery it has now.  Is it 100% correct?  Probably not but the Italian I worked with in Italy who knew 1930's era Bianchi's helped me decide on this old 1930's "original varnish" decal set that came straight from an Italian collector. I wasn't too worried about it because it was fine with me how it was going to look. The decal set I used is an "original set" and not a reproduction.  I was never really a fan of this Bianchi anyway so I sold this bike as soon as I finished it ( 15 - 20 yrs ago now ).
> 
> ...



Until 1949 circa Bianchi road/track bikes have seatpost binder bolt in front of the seatlug, not behind like yours. 

It's impossible that yours is a 1930s Bianchi track bike (they had different lugset, dropouts and so on).
Yours could be a 1950s road frame with original rear dropouts removed.

The decal set you had where meant for luxury city bikes (I don't know how do you call them in English) and there was no metal badge attached to the headtube.

Bianchi changed the shade of its trademark colour several times between the 20s and the 90s, but in Italy we have useful sources to get the right shade of celeste based on the production year of the frameset. In any case, I have never seen an original or a restored Bianchi frameset with the same paint scheme as yours.

Regarding front facing rear dropouts, Bianchi wasn't the only Italian brand to use that specific dropout. Note that some of them have been ridden by non-italian riders (US track rider as well).


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## corbettclassics (Mar 10, 2022)

Interestingly VeloBase has this badge as 1920's - 1930's.  I guess Bianchi did use Badges as mine wasn't the only one!


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## labile (Mar 10, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> Interestingly VeloBase has this badge as 1920's - 1930's.  I guess Bianchi did use Badges as mine wasn't the only one!
> 
> 
> View attachment 1585956



Velobase says a lot of wrong stuff, I wouldn't take it as reference.
Bianchi road race and track bikes (M, Saetta, Olmo, Bovet and so on) from 1920s and 1930s did have a Bianchi decal on the headtube, no metal badge.

I'm not trying to convince you, but please be aware that we have spotted tons of fake Bianchi in Italy and to me this is just another example (I'm not in anyway saying that is your fault).


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## corbettclassics (Mar 10, 2022)

labile said:


> Velobase says a lot of wrong stuff, I wouldn't take it as reference.
> Bianchi road race and track bikes (M, Saetta, Olmo, Bovet and so on) from 1920s and 1930s did have a Bianchi decal on the headtube, no metal badge.
> 
> I'm not trying to convince you, but please be aware that we have spotted tons of fake Bianchi in Italy and to me this is just another example (I'm not in anyway saying that is your fault).



 I agree that I'm not sure how true Velobase is but it's something to go from anyway.  I can't remember correctly but I'm sure I found information on this bike confirming it was 1930's back in the day.  Its been almost 20 years and haven't researched this marque since then.  Everyone has an opinion on something just like Velobase, yourself and many other people.  Who do we believe sometimes!  Who would want to fake a Bianchi anyway!!!!!!

Note - when I got this bike 20 years ago it needed a restoration.  I certainly didn't create a fake by any means ... I just tried to restore what I had acquired.

I'll try and dig out photos of F. Duesneberg's 1920 Bianchi that he raced in the 20's.  Here's a couple for right now >>


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## labile (Mar 10, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> I agree that I'm not sure how true Velobase is but it's something to go from anyway.  I can't remember correctly but I'm sure I found information on this bike confirming it was 1930's back in the day.  Its been almost 20 years and haven't researched this marque since then.  Everyone has an opinion on something just like Velobase, yourself and many other people.  Who do we believe sometimes!  Who would want to fake a Bianchi anyway!!!!!!
> 
> Note - when I got this bike 20 years ago it needed a restoration.  I certainly didn't create a fake by any means ... I just tried to restore what I had acquired.
> 
> ...



well, this last bike you have posted is something totally different. I don't know if it's yours or owned by someone you know, but I'd buy it.


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## corbettclassics (Mar 13, 2022)

@labile - check out the Pop Brennan thread ( thought to be a Brennan ) on the early Bianchi ( 1920's? ) with the rear facing TRACK dropouts.


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## labile (Mar 13, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> @labile - check out the Pop Brennan thread ( thought to be a Brennan ) on the early Bianchi ( 1920's? ) with the rear facing TRACK dropouts.








1936 Bianchi track bike


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## corbettclassics (Mar 13, 2022)

I did read somewhere about the Bianchi riders would ride to the Velodrome and strip their brakes and gears off the Road bike and go Track racing.

Anyway ....

Here's another 20's Bianchi with rear facing dropouts. ( looks like they decided to put a brake and pump on it )






A very cool magazine early '53 showing Coppi aboard his Bianchi Track bike with rear facing dropouts.


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## labile (Mar 14, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> I did read somewhere about the Bianchi riders would ride to the Velodrome and strip their brakes and gears off the Road bike and go Track racing.
> 
> Anyway ....
> 
> ...



the pic of the magazine you have posted shows front facing rear dropouts (in this particular frame made by Campagnolo, pretty similar to the road ones).

you can see here another Coppi bike with the same rear dropouts











, plus another post WWII Coppi Bianchi track bike (1946-47) and a 1956 Melbourne team pursuit gold medal bike. All with front facing rear dropouts.


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## labile (Mar 14, 2022)

mid to late 40s Taurea track bike


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## corbettclassics (Mar 14, 2022)

*AGAIN* ...





Still waiting on the photos of F. Duesenbergs Bianchi he raced in the late 20's.


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## corbettclassics (Apr 4, 2022)

I sent an email a few weeks ago to the person who owns the 1920's Bianchi Track bike that I mentioned earlier.  Haven't heard anything back yet.

So, I decided to go look through thousands of film photos I have stored in boxes and wasn't able to find the side shot photo I took of the bike.

*BUT ........ I was able to find the negative from that photo.* ( it looks to me like it has rear facing TRACK dropouts - 1920's Bianchi - just as I thought! )

Raced by Frank Duesenberg early 20's ...


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## labile (Apr 6, 2022)

@corbettclassics I've checked all Bianchi catalogs from late 1910s to early 40s.
You were right: all Bianchi track bikes until the 1929 have rear facing dropouts. There's a couple of years in which I honestly don't know how they were made.

In 1933/34 Bianchi introduced the road racing Bovet model with new designed dropouts and that style of front facing rear dropouts were used in track bikes as well until mid 50s - even though there are frames from 1953 circa with rear facing dropouts.


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## corbettclassics (Apr 7, 2022)

labile said:


> @corbettclassics I've checked all Bianchi catalogs from late 1910s to early 40s.
> You were right: all Bianchi track bikes until the 1929 have rear facing dropouts. There's a couple of years in which I honestly don't know how they were made.
> 
> In 1933/34 Bianchi introduced the road racing Bovet model with new designed dropouts and that style of front facing rear dropouts were used in track bikes as well until mid 50s - even though there are frames from 1953 circa with rear facing dropouts.



Thank you for that Carlo.  Excellent information for the future!


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## labile (Apr 7, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> Thank you for that Carlo.  Excellent information for the future!



👍
Do you know if that bike could be for sale?


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## corbettclassics (Apr 7, 2022)

labile said:


> 👍
> Do you know if that bike could be for sale?



I am not sure if he wants to sell the bike.  I have put out an email to him and waiting to hear back.
I'll keep you posted if I have any news for you.

I sold mine several years ago and can't remember who I sold it to. I've never seen it anywhere once I sold it.


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## corbettclassics (May 22, 2022)

I've heard back from him ( Not For Sale )

He sent me a couple photos - 1920's Bianchi Track bike with rear facing dropouts as the Track bikes were.

Cheers


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