# Were Phantoms ever skip tooth?



## hoss

I have a '52 Phantom that came with a sweetheart skiptooth sprocket.  Is this correct?

Did Phantoms ever come with a skiptooth sprocket?
If so did they ever come with the sweetheart sprocket or always the phantom-style sprocket?
If not, how many teeth is the rear cog? (I'll need to buy one)
If not, how long of a chain do I need to get?  (What would be correct?)

Thanks!


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## Coaster Brake

My '51 phantom has a skiptooth sweetheart sprocket.


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## jpromo

I didn't think they ever did. The Panther could have come in 1" early on but I've never seen a catalog image with a 1" Phantom, or even suggesting that they offered it. Though, there always seem to be exceptions with bicycles.


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## dxmadman

On my b6's ones skip tooth sweet heart and ones the 1/2 inch schwinn script "Phantom style"
I've seen an add for the 49 phantom with sweet heart, also a panther add with 1/2 inch sprocket , those was hand drawn adds and not actual pics so it could have been an artists rendition. Every panther I've seen had a sweetheart. Dx


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## petritl

My dad told me about the new Black Phantom he got in 1951 when his family moved to TX for a short time in search for employment, when he seen my original 1952 he remarked it looked very similar except he had a skip tooth chain on his.


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## Freqman1

I'd like to see a pic of the bike.  I could be wrong but I don't believe the Phantom ever came with a skiptooth. Memories sometimes aren't as good as we like to think and they may have had a Panther and not a Phantom. V/r Shawn


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## spoker

*phantom skip*

normally they didn't come with skip tooth although for whatever reason some may have them,if its a resale issue in the bicycle world there are some things that are considerd corret,so selling a phantom with a skip tooth would be e difficult,there isn't a lot of documented info on how the bikes came so general consensus prevails


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## cyberpaull

*no never.*

No Phantoms never came with a skiptooth. To have one on a phantom is a abomination. I have one of the first year Phantoms a 1950 Green Phantom with a 1949 frame date.


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## Larmo63

What about B-6's? I've seen the venerable Schwinn B-6 both ways. Did it 

depend on the vendor?


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## 2jakes

*Phantoms*



Larmo63 said:


> What about B-6's? I've seen the venerable Schwinn B-6 both ways. Did it
> 
> depend on the vendor?




Schwinn dealers were the local hardwares,drugstores or auto shops. There was never a
Schwinn store back then when the phantoms were sold. There was not much consistency
so it may very well be that some phantoms were equipped with the skip-tooth . 
Also I have seen several original phantoms from different years & the pin-striping on the
frames vary.



 


_Zaz Von Schwinn_


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## Freqman1

2jakes said:


> Schwinn dealers were the local hardwares,drugstores or auto shops. There was never a
> Schwinn store back then when the phantoms were sold. There was not much consistency
> so it may very well be that some phantoms were equipped with the skip-tooth .
> Also I have seen several original phantoms from different years & the pin-striping on the
> frames vary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Zaz Von Schwinn_




I believe your logic is flawed in the respect that while the outlets through which Schwinns were sold varied drastically they were all assembled in Chicago at the same plant. Other than badging and paint choices I don't think retailers had much say in components especially by 1949-the introduction of the Phantom. I suppose anything is possible but all of the literature I have ever seen shows hte Phantom with the 1/2 pitch 52 T "Big Boy" chain ring. I would love to see literature saying/showing otherwise. V/r Shawn


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## dxmadman

As I said earlier there was a very early advertisement of a 49 phantom that was pictured with a skip tooth, gotta go through my archives I should have it, any way here is some pics of a b6 with 1/2 inch, a panther " my dads 52 has a 1/2 pitch, another mystery, a phantom ad with prices notice the phantoms more expensive than a autocycle, this probably won't solve the mystery but some cool pics.


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## 2jakes

*Phantoms*



Freqman1 said:


> I believe your logic is flawed in the respect that while the outlets through which Schwinns were sold varied drastically they were all assembled in Chicago at the same plant. Other than badging and paint choices I don't think retailers had much say in components especially by 1949-the introduction of the Phantom. I suppose anything is possible but all of the literature I have ever seen shows hte Phantom with the 1/2 pitch 52 T "Big Boy" chain ring. I would love to see literature saying/showing otherwise. V/r Shawn




Although Schwinns were "assembled" in Chicago. Take a look at the Schwinn Dealers catalog; there is a vast amount of options
that Schwinn offered to local dealers to satisfy their customers. If there is a flaw, it is your assumption that the bikes were
completely built at the factory. Not so. Frames were assembled at the factory & crated for shipment where the local dealers
would "assemble" the bicycles or the owners would do it themselves. That aspect hasn't changed much...unless you buy the store 
display model that the vendor has put together.


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## Freqman1

So are you saying Schwinn just shipped the frame to the distributor/retailer and they assembled from parts they had? That, sir would be flawed thinking. As a matter of fact a couple of years ago here on the CABE was a Phantom still in the box/never assembled but all the components were in the box from Chicago. As for options we're talking about things like Forebrakes and such. V/r Shawn


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## 2jakes

Freqman1 said:


> So are you saying Schwinn just shipped the frame to the distributor/retailer and they assembled from parts they had? That, sir would be flawed thinking. As a matter of fact a couple of years ago here on the CABE was a Phantom still in the box/never assembled but all the components were in the box from Chicago. As for options we're talking about things like Forebrakes and such. V/r Shawn




I will repeat again so you can understand. Schwinn  factory assembled the main components . I never said that the rest
of the parts were assembled from what the dealer had. In the Schwinn Dealers catalog to the vendors, there is a vast
amount of parts more than just "Forebrakes and such". Apparently you've never seen the catalog. Could not it be possible
that one customer have asked for installing a skip-tooth ? You have your opinion & I Sir have mine.


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## bricycle

...there's that damn "Can-o-Worms" again.......


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## Freqman1

Yep, I give up. If I were buying another Phantom and it did't have a 1/2" pitch I'd pass unless it was dirt cheap. V/r Shawn


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## Schwinndemonium

*Phantoms and B-6 Autocycles; not the same bike.*

There are some people ([not all], and that is not what I am insinuating here, about anyone in this immediate discussion) who refer to B-6 Autocycles as Phantoms. To them, they are one and the same bike. They don't know otherwise. Basically all a Phantom is, is a B-6 with chrome fenders and tank, whereas the former these parts are totally painted. Physically the two models are identical. maybe what the person is calling a "Phantom" may actually be a springer B-6 with the painted fenders and such. B-6's, I believe were equipped either way with skip tooth or the what I call the regular drive train. I've never seen or heard of a Phantom from the factory equipped that way. The bikes were shipped sub-assembled from the factory with everything in place except to the seat, pedals and handlebars.The front chainring, and chain was already in place on the bike out of the shipping box, for most part. BUT... but, I believe that it was possible for one to SPECIAL ORDER their Phantom back in the day with a skip-tooth drive line if they so desired and paid the extra money up front to have the bike built that way. But as standard equipment, Phantoms did not come with the skip-tooth set-up. Straightbar Panthers did from the same time period, though.

Here is my equipped May of 1949 B-6 "Autocycle".

Jim.


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## Freqman1

2jakes said:


> I will repeat again so you can understand. Schwinn  factory assembled the main components . I never said that the rest
> of the parts were assembled from what the dealer had. In the Schwinn Dealers catalog to the vendors, there is a vast
> amount of parts more than just "Forebrakes and such". Apparently you've never seen the catalog. Could not it be possible
> that one customer have asked for installing a skip-tooth ? You have your opinion & I Sir have mine.




Ok so the answer to the question is that Schwinn never factory equipped any Phantoms with a skiptooth. Once it left Chicago the dealer or owner could do whatever they wanted to the bike including installing a 3speed and middleweight rims if they wanted. Yes I've seen the catalogs and have even read them! V/r Shawn


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## 2jakes

*Schwinn Dealer Catalog*



Schwinndemonium said:


> There are some people ([not all], and that is not what I am insinuating here, about anyone in this immediate discussion) who refer to B-6 Autocycles as Phantoms. To them, they are one and the same bike. They don't know otherwise. Basically all a Phantom is, is a B-6 with chrome fenders and tank, whereas the former these parts are totally painted. Physically the two models are identical. maybe what the person is calling a "Phantom" may actually be a springer B-6 with the painted fenders and such. B-6's, I believe were equipped either way with skip tooth or the what I call the regular drive train. I've never seen or heard of a Phantom from the factory equipped that way. The bikes were shipped sub-assembled from the factory with everything in place except to the seat, pedals and handlebars.The front chainring, and chain was already in place on the bike out of the shipping box, for most part. BUT... but, I believe that it was possible for one to SPECIAL ORDER their Phantom back in the day with a skip-tooth drive line if they so desired and paid the extra money up front to have the bike built that way. But as standard equipment, Phantoms did not come with the skip-tooth set-up. Straightbar Panthers did from the same time period, though.
> 
> Here is my equipped May of 1949 B-6 "Autocycle"
> 
> Jim.




Great looking B-6 !

BTW: some pages from Schwinn dealers catalog:


 




 


From the 1000 of parts Schwinn offered...you could've built a bike anyway you liked !

And at the expense of sounding obvious..." Nothing is ever set in Stone "...


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## bricycle

...imagine a Green Phantom with a 3 pc. crank...... youzers!


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## Freqman1

hoss said:


> I have a '52 Phantom that came with a sweetheart skiptooth sprocket.  Is this correct?
> 
> Did Phantoms ever come with a skiptooth sprocket?
> If so did they ever come with the sweetheart sprocket or always the phantom-style sprocket?
> If not, how many teeth is the rear cog? (I'll need to buy one)
> If not, how long of a chain do I need to get?  (What would be correct?)
> 
> Thanks!




To answer your first question--not from the factory. V/r Shawn


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## dxmadman

*My 2 cents*

As far as  a 49 phantom, I'd say possible ,first years or first runs usually have something different, A 52 I doubt it, that 1/2 inch sprocket was a main part of the phantom. Sorta like a early 66 fast backs that has a sprint or clover instead of a mag. I'd go with a 1/2 inch if it was mine, besides the phantom was best of everything, so give it the best.


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## 2jakes

*Schwinns*

Here's a page from the Schwinn Dealers catalog that the local shop would
have : 





The local dealer shop would have a display model of the Schwinn bicycle.
When you placed an order, you would fill in the form.
If you wanted special parts , Schwinn would provide the order number so
you could have the bike exactly as you preferred.





You got to remember that these local bike dealers did not have a
large area to have large number of bikes available. 

The majority of the Schwinns did not have the skip-tooth version
 Some individuals opted for different specs. & that's why there is
some differences. Check the statement !
*"Or any other combination you may desire "*

Schwinn also offered at a higher expense to built the bike at the factory.

Side note : Schwinn refers to the fenders as " mud-guards". I don't see the
word fender at all in their catalog.


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## GTs58

To simplify this matter, there were *specific* accessories that could be ordered on a specific Schwinn model. On some models not normally equipped with a springer, there was an option to order one, but not all models came with specific option. Schwinn dictated which models could or could not be ordered from the factory with a springer, and this holds true for all the other accessories that are specific to the different models. There were what, three or four options for the Phantom over the years? Different drivetrain componets were not a factory option. The catalogs showed what was available as far as parts go, and if you chose to later modify your bike with Schwinn parts that was up to the owner. If you read the dealers price sheets you will see what I'm talking about. The 54 Jag was a 3 speed and after those special components were available, I never heard of anyone being able to order a 3 speed Phantom. To sum it all up, there were specific parts that one could choose from when ordering a factory built bike.


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## 2jakes

*Schwinn accessories*



GTs58 said:


> To simplify this matter, there were *specific* accessories that could be ordered on a specific Schwinn model. On some models not normally equipped with a springer, there was an option to order one, but not all models came with specific option. Schwinn dictated which models could or could not be ordered from the factory with a springer, and this holds true for all the other accessories that are specific to the different models. There were what, three or four options for the Phantom over the years? Different drivetrain componets were not a factory option. The catalogs showed what was available as far as parts go, and if you chose to later modify your bike with Schwinn parts that was up to the owner. If you read the dealers price sheets you will see what I'm talking about. The 54 Jag was a 3 speed and after those special components were available, I never heard of anyone being able to order a 3 speed Phantom. To sum it all up, there were specific parts that one could choose from when ordering a factory built bike.





quote from Schwinn dealer catalog

*Schwinn Paramount Racing Rear Hub*
 " Companion hub to the Paramount Racing Front Hub, ground
and polished hub and cone ball races, cones from high carbon
chrome steel. Threaded  to take standard racing sprockets or
imported free wheels. While built especially for racing, it is also
an excellent hub for touring and use with detailers gears. Fits
any make bicycle. Order No. 4045. Parts Section."
end quote.

You may never have heard of it but that doesn't mean it never happened !
Realize that Schwinn was in the business to sell their products & have their stamp
on all their parts. How the bike was equipped was the buyers decision.
There are other parts too many to mention that could be installed on all
of their bicycles including the B-6 with different drivetrain components.
This may not conform to your idea of what certain models were equipped with.
Or how it would've look...
But Schwinn would've installed whatever you wanted for a price !


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## Larmo63

I only brought up the B-6, (and I, for one definitely know the difference between the two,) because 

if you do a Google search for B-6 Schwinn, about a third or fourth of the images show a sweetheart

sprocket. My B-6 has a sweetheart and Morrow rear. I like the look way better, but always wondered.


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## 2jakes

Larmo63 said:


> I only brought up the B-6, (and I, for one definitely know the difference between the two,) because
> 
> if you do a Google search for B-6 Schwinn, about a third or fourth of the images show a sweetheart
> 
> sprocket. My B-6 has a sweetheart and Morrow rear. I like the look way better, but always wondered.




I also favor the sweetheart not only for looks but somehow the ride handles better
compared to my other Schwinn Phantoms & B-6. (My 2¢)


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## SJ_BIKER

*schwinn did weird stuff ive been told....*

I've seen 1950s panthers with phantom sprockets ..b6 autocycles with sweet heart sprockets.....phantoms with b6 saddles....panthers with 4 hole racks and tail light....b6 cantilevers with 9 Hole Racks....panthers with troxel saddles not mesinger in the sSacramento area consistently....here is a picture....look it over....I rest my case....iI have seen a phantom photograph with a skip tooth sweety in a local library about 13 years ago....wish i had photo copy for reference....


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## Rambler

*1" pitch chain skip tooth sprocket Black Phantoms? Yes I do believe so!*

These photos were taken in 1981 at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI. I mention the year of the photos because at that point the bike was barely over 30 years old. A time when balloon tire bicycle collecting was just beginning and the desire or need to piece together bikes from parts wasn't even much of an issue because fine examples were fairly plentiful at reasonable prices. I have absolutely no reason to believe the bike in the photos was anything but original. The chrome had dulled some with age and the paint and decals all appeared to be original every time I saw the bike. It had original tires on the bike and everything appeared correct except for someone installing the brake switch on the wrong side of the the rear drop out. If this is not reasonable proof that 1" pitch chain skip tooth Black Phantoms exist I do not know what is.


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## SJ_BIKER

*pic of schwinn phantom with non phantom saddle*

Tires even look like non brick pattern.....look like straight trench


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## dxmadman

That's what I'm talking about, artist rendition. I've seen ads like that, the one I seen was "introducing the new black phantom for 49", the ad shows a sweetheart. I've even seen a cartoon ad for a blue phantom in a 51 advertsement before it came out, that stuff will cause fights, confusion,and dirty name calling.


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## cyberpaull

*animated ads*



SJ_BIKER said:


> Tires even look like non brick pattern.....look like straight trench




You can never trust those animated ads. In my opinion I think those artist took a lot of short-cuts and used older drawings to save time and revised them for newer models.


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## Ozark Flyer

cyberpaull said:


> No Phantoms never came with a skiptooth. To have one on a phantom is a abomination. I have one of the first year Phantoms a 1950 Green Phantom with a 1949 frame date.
> 
> View attachment 103956




X2. Didn't happen naturally.


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## SJ_BIKER

*schwinn logic*

Goodrich schwinn bikes had goodrich tires......no firestone tires

Goodrich bikes had their own decals...streamline...prewar and postwar

so it should follow that schwinn phantoms came in many variations....parts and color....

end of line


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## scrubbinrims

34 posts later and has this question been resolved?
I'd like to go to bed now.
Chris


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## GTs58

scrubbinrims said:


> 34 posts later and has this question been resolved?
> I'd like to go to bed now.
> Chris





It may never be resolved.

 Since I couldn't order a bike without that ugly Schwinn Mag sprocket, I had to buy a clover ring from a dealer and install it myself. Then I told my buddies the bike came from the factory that way.  LOL


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Phantoms did not come with skip tooth sprockets... Ie was the top of the line bikes from Schwinn ie deluxe parts.. Ie The end!!! Ie Go to sleep..  Oh PS, its called a phantom style chainring for one reason... Duh!


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Rambler said:


> These photos were taken in 1981 at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI. I mention the year of the photos because at that point the bike was barely over 30 years old. A time when balloon tire bicycle collecting was just beginning and the desire or need to piece together bikes from parts wasn't even much of an issue because fine examples were fairly plentiful at reasonable prices. I have absolutely no reason to believe the bike in the photos was anything but original. The chrome had dulled some with age and the paint and decals all appeared to be original every time I saw the bike. It had original tires on the bike and everything appeared correct except for someone installing the brake switch on the wrong side of the the rear drop out. If this is not reasonable proof that 1" pitch chain skip tooth Black Phantoms exist I do not know what is.
> View attachment 104066




Meeh photo shop.....


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## SJ_BIKER

*....*



fatbar said:


> Meeh photo shop.....




Your killing me smalls


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## Rivnut

SJ_BIKER said:


> Your killing me smalls




Great article in the latest sports illustrated about "Smalls" and the rest of the Sandlot boys and what they're doing today.  Maybe if I hijack this thread everyone can go to bed and get some sleep without worrying about which chain ring came on what bikes.

Ed


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## GTs58

I can't even count how many pictures I've seen of Phantoms with a Panther front fender and rocket ray light. Schwinn must have ran out of the correct parts and just used what they had on the shelf at the time so anything is possible.

 And this must be true because I've been told this by countless collectors.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

GTs58 said:


> I can't even count how many pictures I've seen of Phantoms with a Panther front fender and rocket ray light. Schwinn must have ran out of the correct parts and just used what they had on the shelf at the time so anything is possible.
> 
> And this must be true because I've been told this by countless collectors.




??? Isn't that called a wasp?


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## bricycle

...It is possible that any Phantom ate too much candy, never saw a dentist, and lost every-other tooth.


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## cyclonecoaster.com

*I was never a believer of this theory .................*



GTs58 said:


> I can't even count how many pictures I've seen of Phantoms with a Panther front fender and rocket ray light. Schwinn must have ran out of the correct parts and just used what they had on the shelf at the time so anything is possible.
> 
> 
> PHP:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this must be true because I've been told this by countless collectors.




Countless collectors have theories too .... "There must be a reason" is the thought process ... So countless collectors say when they ran out of parts they would just grab a part that was near to finish the bicycle off & ship it ...just because it is said does't mean it's true .... imagine if GM did that ...or Ford .. or Harley .. or Indian ... they wouldn't .. that is total BS wise tail from people who don't have a answer & maybe they are trying to justify or even sell off something with incorrect parts as a real deal something as the way it must have come .. total BS ... & just because it's in a Museum - it doesn't make it correct 

Schwinn Phantoms were top of the line Schwinn's their flagship bike ... the top of the line Schwinn from the mid 1930's up has the regular pitch chainring ... The chainring could have been changed by the shop - the owner - etc. in the last 60 years ... just sayin ... stranger things have happened ... as far as a Schwinn Autocycle being priced less than a Phantom goes ... by the time the Schwinn Phantom was introduced in 1949 .. the Schwinn Autocycle was no longer the top tier bicycle in the line up ... all the chrome work on the Phantom made it more expensive ... hence the higher price ..... my 2 cents ..........


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## scrubbinrims

cyclonecoaster.com said:


> Countless collectors have theories too .... "There must be a reason" is the thought process ... So countless collectors say when they ran out of parts they would just grab a part that was near to finish the bicycle off & ship it ...just because it is said does't mean it's true .... imagine if GM did that ...or Ford .. or Harley .. or Indian ... they wouldn't .. that is total BS wise tail from people who don't have a answer & maybe they are trying to justify or even sell off something with incorrect parts as a real deal something as the way it must have come .. total BS ... & just because it's in a Museum - it doesn't make it correct QUOTE]
> 
> Well said Frank...Leon Dixon has sounded the same belief and I also subscribe (except in the case of Shelby .
> Chris


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## dougfisk

FWIW - 

While in college I worked for a retailer that sold, among other things, bicycles.  For a 3 year period, I was the sole party who received, unpackaged, assembled, prepared for sale, and subsequently serviced and repaired ALL the bicycles for this establishment.  Now, these were not 1938 Shelbys, nor were they 1949 Schwinns, but they were the products of 2 major US bicycle manufacturers.  I can state, without reservation or hesitation, that the products shipped were not all identical or uniform.  There WERE occaisional deviations from the "norm" or "standard".  It is a fact that our manufacturers had intentionally or unintentionally substituted components that were different, but still functional.  We put them on the floor and sold them... we did not "call the authorities"...

I believe that no one, not even Mr. Schwinn himself, can say with absolute certainty that something never happened.  I do believe also, that this explanation (or excuse) is way over-used to cover-up dis-honest or unknowing deficiencies.


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## Rambler

I must agree with dougfisk, I work for an automobile manufacturer and have first hand knowledge of the mistakes and last minute changes that happen every day. I have no doubt that Schwinn likely built some Phantoms with 1' pitch sprockets either due to the specified 1/2" sprockets not being available at start of production or due to a later decision to use 1/2" pitch sprockets. We will never know what the reason was. To call the Phantom a flagship no expense spared bicycle is a bit strong. Most bikes in the 1950's including the Phantom were merely children's toys, not serious works of precision engineering. Even the auto manufacturer I work for makes mistakes and minor alteration on its nearly $100,000 flagship cars without telling the customer so I would not expect a bicycle company building children's toys to be perfect. They are not going to hold up production of a bicycle due to lack of a specified component. Suitable substitutions will be made for the sake of profits and production schedule timing.


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## 2jakes

*+ 1 on the last two posts ! *


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Who's got one with a skippy?? That you know fer sure came that way?? Post a pic!!As to regards of putting whatever part on that was "laying around", well that's crap. Every boy had been saving up for one of these things. They have been looking at their friends phantom and ocd ing over pictures in comic books. I for one, if being a kid back then would have definitely had a prob with my brand new phantom having panther parts on it!.. Bottom line is its bad salesmanship to print lit with very distinguishable parts on it and then have the actual product be missing those parts.. Kids would notice the light being wrong or non deluxe ring. Thats how kids are! They want to one up their buddies panther!   now question is, did Girls phantoms come with skippy? Lol


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## SJ_BIKER

*heres a picture*

Gasp...its looks o.g. ....looooks like a skip tooth to me


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## GTs58

Here's a 1954 being sold by a well known collector/seller and it's equipped with a four ring clover sprocket.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-195...90800629819?hash=item43b511783b#ht_3182wt_679

Looks O.G to me.        Bwa ha ha.

Since the chain rings were made in house I highly doubt they ever ran out and used what was on the shelf at the time. That is the biggest excuse I've ever heard for someone switching out parts on a 50 year old Schwinn. Never saw a straight bar Phantom because they ran out of cantilever frames. I personally believe Schwinn was pretty exact as far as what was produced and they adheared to a models specs right down to the wire. I totally agree with Fatbar 100% on this subject.

Note: The Phantom above has a duplicated serial number. It is either a 1954 or 1956 model and it's not the later repo issue with the so called cheapo springer. It's all original except for the non original...... lmao


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## SJ_BIKER

*its the same thing with s2 wheels sets*

ever studied how many types of s2 tubular wheel sets schwinn made?? there are at least 3 to 4 different ones with some having no knurls....to light knurls...to wide deep knurls to wide hoops to narrow knurls....good chrome and bad chrome to almost aluminum....then theres the infamous stainless steel s2 legend....schwinn did weird stuff....


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## GTs58

The rims changed over a production period of what, 50 years? Ya there were some changes and the Schwinn stampings were all over the place to no stampings again, but after quite a few decades.


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## Larmo63

The (WAY overpriced) Phantom for sale by BBC is a later version.

They came that way. Look at the cheapo springer.


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## cyberpaull

*Lets end this*





This is what a early Phantom looks like. This is a 1952. Anything else is a custom job by a individual or a dealer PERIOD!


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## 2jakes

*Schwinn Black Phantom*

This is what Schwinn promoted in the 50's...




_( Original Schwinn Pamphlet )_

And this is what Schwinn also promoted at the same time:




_( will fit any balloon bicycle )_

Most of the Black Phantoms were equipped as the color
display illustrates.
But there were individuals that opted for different parts to
their bikes that the local dealers were happy to oblige.

To say it is not correct or the look is not right...blame Schwinn..
they were the ones offering these options.

The Black Phantom as illustrated is what is mostly found today.

 I've also read in the catalog that Schwinn would built at the *factory*
your Phantom as you preferred...for a price.


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## SJ_BIKER

*ummmm*



cyberpaull said:


> View attachment 104365
> 
> This is what a early Phantom looks like. This is a 1952. Anything else is a custom job by a individual or a dealer PERIOD!



nooooOOO your phantom has the wrong neck and handlesbars are not correct either....it appears that your example has been modified....customized by a dealer?.....dont get me started on the carlisles....look great tho


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## SJ_BIKER

*hmm*



2jakes said:


> This is what Schwinn promoted in the 50's...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _( Original Schwinn Pamphlet )_
> 
> And this is what Schwinn also promoted at the same time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _( will fit any balloon bicycle )_
> 
> Most of the Black Phantoms were equipped as the color
> display illustrates.
> But there were individuals that opted for different parts to
> their bikes that the local dealers were happy to oblige.
> 
> To say it is not correct or the look is not right...blame Schwinn..
> they were the ones offering these options.
> 
> The Black Phantom as illustrated is what is mostly found today.
> 
> I've also read in the catalog that Schwinn would built at the *factory*
> your Phantom as you preferred...for a price.




are the tires in the color ad allstate?  they do not look like brick pattern


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## 2jakes

SJ_BIKER said:


> are the tires in the color ad allstate?  they do not look like brick patter




The Schwinn Chicago Plant & the Schwinn ad agency were worlds apart 
when it came to illustrating their product as it actually looked.

Now this might appear contradictory to my earlier post of how the Phantom
looked based on the color flyer...but hey ...you get the idea.

Now whether the stem or handlebar was this or that....& it's not correct !!!

Come on guys...the bottom line is...there is no one model that can be known
as *the True Black Phantom*...there was so many aspects that were constantly
changing over the years. I'm just happy to be the owner of all three colors of the
Schwinn Phantom & I accept them as they are originally even if some kid in 1952
made some changes to it..I love them all.


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## GTs58

SJ_BIKER said:


> are the tires in the color ad allstate?  they do not look like brick pattern




I'm pretty sure the brick tread tires were first issued on the 1958 models.


And here is the scoop on Schwinn's ordering instructions. This should definitely answer any questions whether a person could do a factory order for a Cycle-Truck skippy sprocket on their Phantom.


Edit. Kinda hard to read so go to Tom's site and look at the 1959 catalog.


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## Freqman1

I think it would be appropriate if Scott would insert his dead horse animated GIF now! V/r Shawn


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## mruiz

Freqman1 said:


> I think it would be appropriate if Scott would insert his dead horse animated GIF now! V/r Shawn




 Yeah.     ??   This thread is like the question once ask?       Do wet birds fly at night?


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## cyberpaull

*I agree*

I agree 2jakes. 




2jakes said:


> The Schwinn Chicago Plant & the Schwinn ad agency were worlds apart
> when it came to illustrating their product as it actually looked.
> 
> Now this might appear contradictory to my earlier post of how the Phantom
> looked based on the color flyer...but hey ...you get the idea.
> 
> Now whether the stem or handlebar was this or that....& it's not correct !!!
> 
> Come on guys...the bottom line is...there is no one model that can be known
> as *the True Black Phantom*...there was so many aspects that were constantly
> changing over the years. I'm just happy to be the owner of all three colors of the
> Schwinn Phantom & I accept them as they are originally even if some kid in 1952
> made some changes to it..I love them all.


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## scrubbinrims

Lock the doors and turn out the lights.
Sweet dreams everyone, Chris
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## SJ_BIKER

*here is a red one with a sweetheart sprocket*

A red phantom with a skip tooth sweetheart....


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## SJ_BIKER

*rare option??*

In the evolution of the bicycle there is a red phantom sweet as honey with a sweet heart disk non skip tooth....super duper rare...I've newer seen another one like it


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## GTs58

Wow, that's pretty neat. Can yall hang on for a second while I go find my picture of a Huffy with a Schwinn headbadge?  

Did the owner of that Red Phantom forget to put the chain back on after changing out the sprocket?


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## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> Wow, that's pretty neat. Can yall hang on for a second while I go find my picture of a Huffy with a Schwinn headbadge?
> 
> Did the owner of that Red Phantom forget to put the chain back on after changing out the sprocket?




Steve Castelli might provide the answer.That Red is from his collection & is pictured in the "Evolution of the Bicycle" vol. 2 if I'm not mistaken.


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## kos22us

GTs58 said:


> I'm pretty sure the brick tread tires were first issued on the 1958 models.
> 
> 
> And here is the scoop on Schwinn's ordering instructions. This should definitely answer any questions whether a person could do a factory order for a Cycle-Truck skippy sprocket on their Phantom.
> 
> 
> Edit. Kinda hard to read so go to Tom's site and look at the 1959 catalog.







the schwinn typhoon tires are brick tread and were issued from 53' and up


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## island schwinn

my 49 has brick tread tires. i see a whole new discussion coming up


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## GTs58

island schwinn said:


> my 49 has brick tread tires. i see a whole new discussion coming up






Mine has brick tread Duro's. Or were they Fong's?   lol  So the brick treads never were used on the middleweights for the first few years after their introduction but the ballooners had the brick tread?


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## kos22us

yea 1 second after i hit the submit button i thought, they're gonna be like look at this wise ass 

im basing my comment on the fact that there is absolutley no mention whatsover of schwinn typhoon tires in the 48' catalog, 49' comic catalog or the 49' full size 2 page brochure introducing the pahantom, 50' cat, 51' brochure, or the 52' cat & brochure, none of these catalogs offer any type of tires at all in the parts & access. sections, and under each bicyle model for tires all these cat's say either "cord balloon best quality" for the deluxe models or simply "cord balloon" for the economy models, then in the 53' cat boom ... schwinn typhoon tires !   ww's for deluxe models and bw's for economy models and typhoon tires available in the back parts & access. section and the rest of the cats are like that from there on up, i just very seriously doubt schwinn would have been making them years prior and not mentioned especially w/ the way they advertised and had the name on every piece of the bicycle, furthermore in 53' they not only mention typhoon tires they were happy to tell ya they were the greatest tires of all time , your 49 could have been purchased w/ carlisle, us royal etc. rode for a couple years and when they needed replaced the typhoons were out by then & thrown on, wonder if the # codes can be referenced to a date sheet ??? 

im confident i have it all wrong, but at this point its still my .2


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## kos22us

GTs58 said:


> Mine has brick tread Duro's. Or were they Fong's?   lol  So the brick treads never were used on the middleweights for the first few years after their introduction but the ballooners had the brick tread?





i think the 1st couple years like 55' 56' of mw's were marketed as having tornado tires which i have no idea what kind of tread they have, i think
57' they started w/ the westwinds , the typhoon & westwind have identical tread style = brick 

i would check on the tornado tread but im too tired and need to get to bed, everyone else is already there and its not much fun answering, replying, and quoting your own posts


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## 2jakes

*Schwinn Dealers Catalog*














_These are pages from my Schwinn Bicycles 
Accessories-Parts Catalog that was sent to dealers.
In the middle of the book is the " loose leaf "
Section. Schwinn would send sheets from time to time
to the dealers announcing new models & other important
changes in the Schwinn line._

_ The catalog lists the *B607 DeLuxe Autocycle*_
as their top of the line equipped model .
 The first line shows a listing for the Schwinn Typhoon
Balloon Tire & Tube.
This  book & information is  before the Black Phantom was
introduced around 1949...
  My 2¢


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## SJ_BIKER

*once again schwinn does it again...razor back is nill*



2jakes said:


> _These are pages from my Schwinn Bicycles
> Accessories-Parts Catalog that was sent to dealers.
> In the middle of the book is the " loose leaf "
> Section. Schwinn would send sheets from time to time
> to the dealers announcing new models & other important
> changes in the Schwinn line._
> 
> _ The catalog lists the *B607 DeLuxe Autocycle*_
> as their top of the line equipped model .
> The first line shows a listing for the Schwinn Typhoon
> Balloon Tire & Tube.
> This  book & information is  before the Black Phantom was
> introduced around 1949...
> My 2¢



More proof that Schwinn some squirely sh&t....look closely at the middle picture .....the bike sports a knuckle up type stem(prewar type) and not the AS bolt schwinn stem(razor back).........schwinn did some weird stuff


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## kos22us

2jakes said:


> _These are pages from my Schwinn Bicycles
> Accessories-Parts Catalog that was sent to dealers.
> In the middle of the book is the " loose leaf "
> Section. Schwinn would send sheets from time to time
> to the dealers announcing new models & other important
> changes in the Schwinn line._
> 
> _ The catalog lists the *B607 DeLuxe Autocycle*_
> as their top of the line equipped model .
> The first line shows a listing for the Schwinn Typhoon
> Balloon Tire & Tube.
> This  book & information is  before the Black Phantom was
> introduced around 1949...
> My 2¢






well i'll be a son of a gun, what cat is that 48' ?


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## 2jakes

kos22us said:


> well i'll be a son of a gun, what cat is that 48' ?




 Based on the Autocycle being their latest...I believe you are correct !

Also , the folks at the Chicago Schwinn factory & whoever did the advertising for
illustrating Schwinn products (on some parts)..were not on the same planet !


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## 2jakes

SJ_BIKER said:


> More proof that Schwinn some squirely sh&t....look closely at the middle picture .....the bike sports a knuckle up type stem(prewar type) and not the AS bolt schwinn stem(razor back).........schwinn did some weird stuff




That's great observation.

On another illustration of this model...there is the AS bolt Schwinn 
stem that you mentioned. I guess that the "artists" who put the ads
were not bike enthusiasts or probably  thought that being a child's 
product, the kids wouldn't know the difference. 

It would be nice to hear from Schwinn people who worked at the plant
or dealers who actually did business with Schwinn . Not sure if they are
still around !


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## bricycle

GTs58 said:


> Mine has brick tread Duro's. Or were they Fong's?   lol  So the brick treads never were used on the middleweights for the first few years after their introduction but the ballooners had the brick tread?




They were on middleweights as 26x1 3/4"


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## kos22us

2jakes said:


> That's great observation.
> 
> On another illustration of this model...there is the AS bolt Schwinn
> stem that you mentioned. I guess that the "artists" who put the ads
> were not bike enthusiasts or probably  thought that being a child's
> product, the kids wouldn't know the difference.
> 
> It would be nice to hear from Schwinn people who worked at the plant
> or dealers who actually did business with Scwhinn . Not sure if they are
> still around !





the guy to ask some of these questions in regards to receiving from the factory and ordering from the factory would have been Howie bikeman cohen (RIP), according to his website his parents owned 3 different bike shops that sold schwinn in which he worked at, i believe he passed away earlier this month 

how many pages does the "loose leaf" section in your catalog consist of ?


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## 2jakes

kos22us said:


> the guy to ask some of these questions in regards to receiving from the factory and ordering from the factory would have been Howie bikeman cohen (RIP), according to his website his parents owned 3 different bike shops that sold schwinn in which he worked at, i believe he passed away earlier this month
> 
> how many pages does the "loose leaf" section in your catalog consist of ?




In the loose-leaf section:
22 pages ranging from forks,hubs,chainguards,racks etc. Schwinn in this book never
uses the word fender...instead they are listed as mud-guards.

Perhaps Cabe members in Chicago may check around on the history of Schwinn. There
might be some retired employees who can provide some input. Just a thought !:eek:


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Well...wtf...




Check out this item I found on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=380683236926


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## kos22us

fatbar said:


> Well...wtf...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out this item I found on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=380683236926





assuming the ebay link is in regards to the crank set, there is no way to know if it came like that or one of the owners changed that, someone changed the seat and obviously were messin with the wheels


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## SJ_BIKER

*...*



kos22us said:


> assuming the ebay link is in regards to the crank set, there is no way to know if it came like that or one of the owners changed that, someone changed the seat and obviously were messin with the wheels




Not everyone is talented to know how to convert this if your theory is correct.....face it gents there is enough evidence  here on examples to suggest that some where equiped from the factory....quit hating


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## kos22us

SJ_BIKER said:


> Not everyone is talented to know how to convert this if your theory is correct.....face it gents there is enough evidence  here on examples to suggest that some where equiped from the factory....quit hating




read back through the comments you'll find i have no dog in this hunt, i haven't the slightest idea if phantoms ever came skiptooth !   

is it a big deal to me either way ?  NO      so hating ?  ... you could not possibly be anymore wrong

i simply pointed out the obvious

ps. if i was forced to bet money i would go with some probably were


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## GTs58

????????????????


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## SJ_BIKER

*....*



kos22us said:


> read back through the comments you'll find i have no dog in this hunt, i haven't the slightest idea if phantoms ever came skiptooth !
> 
> is it a big deal to me either way ?  NO      so hating ?  ... you could not possibly be anymore wrong
> 
> i simply pointed out the obvious
> 
> ps. if i was forced to bet money i would go with some probably were




I gotcha good buddy....sorry if I offended you...fact of matter is schwinnn  did weird stuff


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## 2jakes

This is the  "Red Phantom"  minus some parts missing.





and here's a close-up after removing the chainguard



A.S.& CO. by SCHWINN

*no way this was factory made !*

But no hate...the deal was sweet ... & now I have a red
Phantom.


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## kos22us

SJ_BIKER said:


> I gotcha good buddy....sorry if I offended you...fact of matter is schwinnn  did weird stuff




no worries,   all good


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

kos22us said:


> no worries,   all good




Damn you, I woulda gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kidz!? (Schwinn factory workers after the mystery machine showed up)


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## younggun'85

2jakes said:


> This is the  "Red Phantom"  minus some parts missing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and here's a close-up after removing the chainguard
> 
> 
> 
> A.S.& CO. by SCHWINN
> 
> *no way this was factory made !*
> 
> But no hate...the deal was sweet ... & now I have a red
> Phantom.




Yes the as & co chainring was made by schwinn it is not a modified cotter pin crank.


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## 2jakes

younggun'85 said:


> Yes the as & co chainring was made by schwinn it is not a modified cotter pin crank.




When I said "it was not factory made"...I meant that the Red Phantom was never equipped with this
crank from the Chicago plant. I believe some individual must have installed this.
I realize the chainring is Schwinn, but it was made for another Schwinn bicycle & not the
Phantoms.


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## GTs58

I've seen a few Phantoms with the 46 T clover ring, and no they were not the 59 Phantoms. It must be factory issued since it was shown in the comic ads back in the day. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Schwin...ltDomain_0&hash=item51af9264f8#ht_1963wt_1449

If you are a member of the SBF then you can see the pictures of this 56 model wearing a clover ring. I tried to copy and load the pics here but no go.  
http://www.schwinnbikeforum.com/index.php?topic=15274.msg86146#msg86146

Still looking for any kind of Schwinn literature showing or stating a skip tooth sweetheart was issued on a Phantom.


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## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> I've seen a few Phantoms with the 46 T clover ring, and no they were not the 59 Phantoms. It must be factory issued since it was shown in the comic ads back in the day.
> http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=350837957880
> 
> If you are a member of the SBF then you can see the pictures of this 56 model wearing a clover ring.


----------



## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> Still looking for any kind of Schwinn literature showing or stating a skip tooth sweetheart was issued on a Phantom.




I looked at Schwinn Phantom brochures/catalogs from 1950 to 1959.
All have the 1/2'' . Could not find any with the skip tooth .

Then I went to my own Schwinn catalog 1948.
Obviously there were no Phantoms yet...their latest was the
B607 Deluxe Autocycle with the painted fenders for one thing.
And was equipped with 1/2''.

But I noticed that Schwinn offered the B6 model in 24" Juvenile.
This model was equipped with the 1" or skip tooth.

I went back to the Schwinn Black Phantom Brochures
& I found this:



It's a Schwinn Phantom 24 " Juvenile & what looks like
skip tooth. But the image is not too clear.
If someone has a Schwinn brochure of the Juvenile 24"
Black Phantom to prove that maybe there was a Phantom
with the skip tooth but in juvenile size. 
clover ring ? You be the judge !

www.trfindley.com/pg_schwinn_cats.htm


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## island schwinn

the 24" model only came out in 54 and i've seen 2 of them.both had the cloverleaf standard chainring.


----------

