# Help me ID This MOTOBIKE



## MOTOmike (Aug 28, 2012)

Hello,
I bought this motobike several months ago as a parts bike because the frame is bent in a few places and has been re-welded.  I need help to ID this bike because I'm thinking about finding another frame and getting some "new" wheels.  The bike looks fairly original except for the wheels.  There are 26” wheels on there now.  It looks like it should be 28”.  The front hub is an older New Departure Model M.  The rear hub is a newer New Departure Model D.  I’m not sure if the seat was original to the bike…..it looks like a “newer” seat.  The bike has been repainted once.  The original paint underneath looks like Mead Ranger brown to me.  The serial number on the bike is:  A 46404.   There is no head badge.  I cannot even find the holes for the head badge.  There are two holes at the top of the front fender where a light was likely mounted (and is now missing).  Any help to ID and date this bike will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike


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## Gary Mc (Aug 28, 2012)

Not sure on make but nice early Wald pedals!!!!!!!  Nice bike too.....


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## bricycle (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm thinking Mead??? I would kill for those bars and stem...... bri.


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## Balloontyre (Aug 28, 2012)

bricycle said:


> I'm thinking Mead??? I would kill for those bars and stem...... bri.




I thought Mead at first based on the crank, but the crank is different on this bike, look closely at the outer spheres, there is an extra indent different from the Mead crank.


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## rustyspoke66 (Aug 28, 2012)

Do you have a better shot of the front fork?


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## josehuerta (Aug 28, 2012)

I came across a site a few months back that lists sprockets by brand. If accurate, the sprocket was used on '25 Pathfinder. My mistake on first post - read below description, not above as I should.
Makes more sense now, those could easily be Pathfinder colors. Mead brown underneath could be the red oxide primer, often almost brown in color.


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## MOTOmike (Aug 28, 2012)

*More Front Fork Photos*

I had to use my flash (in the basement) but hopefully you can see more details of the front fork.
If you need additional photos or details, please say so.
Thanks.

Mike


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## MOTOmike (Aug 28, 2012)

*Sprocket*



josehuerta said:


> I came across a site a few months back that lists sprockets by brand. If accurate, the sprocket was used on '25 Pathfinder. My mistake on first post - read below description, not above as I should.




JoseHuerta,

Thanks for your response.  Do you happen to remember the website?  www.______ ?

I did many random internet searches for 1934 and 1935 Hawthorne bikes and could not find any that had this sprocket.

This sprocket uses 1/2" pitch chain (as did the Mead Rangers), but as was pointed out the crank, which I believe is original to the bike, appears different than a Mead.

Mike


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## josehuerta (Aug 28, 2012)

I goofed, read my edit on my first post. The sprocket website home.comcast.net/chriseye/sprockets. Make sense of that if you can, but that is where I found it. Let us know if that works. 
The diamond shaped arms are consistent with Meads as well, not sure about the forks.


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## MOTOmike (Aug 28, 2012)

josehuerta said:


> I goofed, read my edit on my first post. The sprocket website home.comcast.net/chriseye/sprockets. Make sense of that if you can, but that is where I found it. Let us know if that works.
> The diamond shaped arms are consistent with Meads as well, not sure about the forks.




I found the website.  The full website address is:  

http://home.comcast.net/~chriseye/sprockets.html


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## josehuerta (Aug 28, 2012)

Here you have it. Check Stuff on craigslist, page 2 currently, "Nice Mead". 1922 Pathfinder


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## MOTOmike (Aug 29, 2012)

*Still don't know what I have........*



josehuerta said:


> Here you have it. Check Stuff on craigslist, page 2 currently, "Nice Mead". 1922 Pathfinder




I did check it out.  The Mead Pathfinder does look quite nice.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I still have not heard from anyone who had a definitive response as to what my motobike could be other than a Mead, but the front sprocket doesn't seem to match other Meads.

Is there anyone else out there who would like to chime in??  Please do so.

Mike


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## josehuerta (Aug 29, 2012)

*Mead Crusader*

And one more. Mead Crusader posted 7/31/12 by balloontyre - Mead Motobike Frame Identification. It's a Mead.


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## MOTOmike (Aug 30, 2012)

*I think I have a 1918 Mead Pathfinder*



josehuerta said:


> Here you have it. Check Stuff on craigslist, page 2 currently, "Nice Mead". 1922 Pathfinder




After looking online at actual bikes and literature of other Mead Pathfinders, I think I may have a 1918 Mead Pathfinder.  This was the only year where I could find a bike that also had the "wire" type fender braces.  The only odd part is that the truss rods are secured to the upper truss rod bracket with a single nut, where other photos show upper truss rod brackets using two nuts to secure the truss rods.  Maybe I have a very early 1918 bike where Mead may have changed the upper truss rod bracket sometime soon after starting production. 

Mike


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## Balloontyre (Aug 30, 2012)

*Not Sold on Mead...Yet*

Hi Mike,
Great research project ya got there.

 The chain wheel is very close to Mead, but no cigar. In the link to the chainwheels, the author is questioning his own accuracy in identifying the one you have on your bike. It is very similar though.

 The crank hanger on your bike looks different from the Mead as well. Is there a patent mark present on the chainwheel?

I agree on the approximate age based on the fenders 1918 or earlier, just too many subtle differences from Mead to be certain of your bike.

Can you post a pic of the rear fender bridge all the way up showing top of the seat tube please.
Ivo


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## MOTOmike (Aug 30, 2012)

*Additional Photos to Follow......*



Balloontyre said:


> Hi Mike,
> Great research project ya got there.
> 
> The chain wheel is very close to Mead, but no cigar. In the link to the chainwheels, the author is questioning his own accuracy in identifying the one you have on your bike. It is very similar though.
> ...




I want my cigar.....
Additional photos will be posted.
Mike


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## MOTOmike (Aug 30, 2012)

*Additional Photos & Additional Information*

Here are some additional photos.

When I went looking for any patent dates I found some stamped lettering on the crank (right hand side only).  I can't make out the first word, the second word may say "SPECIAL"?  The a date of MAR 7  95  ??  It is difficult to read even with a magnifying glass.  

I also found the head badge holes.  I thought they were specks of dirt before.  In one photo I am pointing to the hole on one side of the head tube.


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## MOTOmike (Aug 30, 2012)

*Two additional photos*

These last two photos did not make it into my last post.


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## SirMike1983 (Aug 30, 2012)

It looks like it was Chinese/orange-red  with black box stripes originally. I've seen bikes with that same faded orange-red that started out more a true red and then faded to that color. I've seen that color scheme on several brands and it was not unique to Mead, so I don't think the paint is a give away. The horizontal badge holes do seem to match a round Mead badge though.


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## MOTOmike (Aug 30, 2012)

*Motobike ID*



SirMike1983 said:


> It looks like it was Chinese red with black box stripes originally. I've seen that color scheme on several brands and it was not unique to Mead, so I don't think the paint is a give away.




The maroon colored paint is a repaint job.  Underneath that is a brown that looks very similar to Mead brown.

Mike


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## Balloontyre (Aug 30, 2012)

*Fauber*

What the Fauber, crank arm looks Fauber, which I understand  1905 and later Fauber was manufactured by Great Western Manufacturing, La Porte Indiana. It maybe that your bike is GWM constructed.

I wonder if it's possible that the chainwheel you have is a British made Mead version of the similar, more documented one that is seen on the  American models of Pathfinder, Crusader, and Ranger. Or Faubers version of the same, the one on a bike I own has a 1918 patent dare on the chainwheel itself.

The rear stay looks very different from the 1920 and subsequent Meads, it resembles the GWM frame. Maybe a Mead Master Flash will arrive to this thread and enlighten us all if your frame is Mead or otherwise. I tried to get some similar answers to Mead frame construction with no conclusive result yet.

Now this is getting interesting...


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## Balloontyre (Aug 30, 2012)

josehuerta said:


> And one more. Mead Crusader posted 7/31/12 by balloontyre - Mead Motobike Frame Identification. It's a Mead.




Chainwheels are close but not the same.


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## josehuerta (Aug 30, 2012)

*Motobike ID*




 Tried my first attachment, no idea if I did it correctly. Balloontyre - tell us what you see on the crank arm that is different? This picture seems to show the same truss mount at the top, and perhaps the arched bridge between seat stays.


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## Balloontyre (Aug 30, 2012)

*Side by Side*

here are the 2 together,
Good observation on the rear bridge, I'm unsure of the frame construction, especially using a catalog image which were artist interpretation drawings.


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## Rust_Trader (Aug 30, 2012)

josehuerta said:


> View attachment 63184 Tried my first attachment, no idea if I did it correctly. Balloontyre - tell us what you see on the crank arm that is different? This picture seems to show the same truss mount at the top, and perhaps the arched bridge between seat stays.




That looks identical, nice job.


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## Balloontyre (Aug 30, 2012)

Greens07 said:


> That looks identical, nice job.




Close only,


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## josehuerta (Aug 30, 2012)

The mark on the crank arm puzzles me as well, but the diamond shape of the arm seems the same as other Meads. I haven't picked up on the difference you see on the arm, tell us what you see. The scallops on the outer rim of the chainwheel is an obvious difference, but I don't see the crank difference as yet. Do you have any catalogs from Great Western you could share? I have a Cyrus from them, may have to start a thread on that. We're having fun now.

I have an early Mead (1915+-) with a flat sprocket with a flange around the outer rim, similar to the one in question, my guess is that the design was  punched into a heavy casting. I have later Meads with sprockets that are slightly dished, no flange, same design, but not the same. These I assume were stamped into thinner metal, and I think the process may even be one of Mead's patents. Thinner, lighter, cheaper to make and just as strong would be the attraction to a manufacturer. I believe all to be the original equipment on the bikes.


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## sam (Aug 30, 2012)

It might be a mead but not the Ranger Model.The lower priced meads /Pathfinder and Crusaders were made by other makers. The crusaders used the same screw in BB cups seen on your bike. And the arms are Furber so I supect the sprocket is too.Great Western made Mead pathfinder or Crusader is a good guess.


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## sam (Aug 30, 2012)

And FYI 1970s Cresents from Sweden used these very same cups !


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## josehuerta (Aug 30, 2012)

It's an answer I can live with. When in doubt ask an expert. A Great Western(built) Mead. No more fun?


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## Balloontyre (Aug 30, 2012)

Jose, my error in nomenclature On My first post, crank is not what I meant, chain ring is the difference I was referring to.
Sorry about the confusion.


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## chitown (Aug 30, 2012)

josehuerta said:


> The mark on the crank arm puzzles me as well, but the diamond shape of the arm seems the same as other Meads. I haven't picked up on the difference you see on the arm, tell us what you see. The scallops on the outer rim of the chainwheel is an obvious difference, but I don't see the crank difference as yet. Do you have any catalogs from Great Western you could share? I have a Cyrus from them, may have to start a thread on that. We're having fun now.
> 
> I have an early Mead (1915+-) with a flat sprocket with a flange around the outer rim, similar to the one in question, my guess is that the design was  punched into a heavy casting. I have later Meads with sprockets that are slightly dished, no flange, same design, but not the same. These I assume were stamped into thinner metal, and I think the process may even be one of Mead's patents. Thinner, lighter, cheaper to make and just as strong would be the attraction to a manufacturer. I believe all to be the original equipment on the bikes.





The earlier chainring you refer to with the flange was a drop forged vs the stamped sheet steel ones with the dished edge. If you read the patent, the process of making the dish is done while heat tempering to strengthening the dished portion. Patent date is Jan 1, 1918 which you see on most Meads from then on up to 1936 when they started using the Schwinn chainrings.  I think this is a good way of determining pre-1916-1918 and post-1916-1918 Meads. I say 1916 because that is when the patent was applied for vs actual patent date by patent office. This process of stamping the chainrings was to be proved as the prefered method of manufacturing for most of the industry. I don't know if it was the first, but most teen chainrings are the drop forged type. Patented by bicycle maverick George Lewis. It is a good read also. He mentions on how the teeth are cut on relatively soft metal before the tempering and dish is done so as to be easier to machine.

View attachment 63210

http://www.google.com/patents?id=GjMTAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=1251979&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## MOTOmike (Aug 30, 2012)

*Chainring*



chitown said:


> The earlier chainring you refer to with the flange was a drop forged vs the stamped sheet steel ones with the dished edge. If you read the patent, the process of making the dish is done while heat tempering to strengthening the dished portion. Patent date is Jan 1, 1918 which you see on most Meads from then on up to 1936 when they started using the Schwinn chainrings.  I think this is a good way of determining pre-1916-1918 and post-1916-1918 Meads. I say 1916 because that is when the patent was applied for vs actual patent date by patent office. This process of stamping the chainrings was to be proved as the prefered method of manufacturing for most of the industry. I don't know if it was the first, but most teen chainrings are the drop forged type. Patented by bicycle maverick George Lewis. It is a good read also. He mentions on how the teeth are cut on relatively soft metal before the tempering and dish is done so as to be easier to machine.
> 
> View attachment 63210
> 
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=GjMTAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=1251979&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=false




The chainring on my bike is essentially "flat" (not "dished" like later chainrings....such as my 1922 Mead Ranger).  The chainring in question is not perfectly flat though.  If you run your fingers over the side of the chainring where the "ends" of the six "spokes" (for lack of a better word.....see earlier photo) of the chainring meet the outer circular part of the chainring (where the teeth are), you can feel where parts of the chainring are thicker and thinner and feels a little "wavy" because of that.

Thanks to everyone so far for all of their input!  Awesome!
Now I need to decide what I am going to do with this bike.....

Mike


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## rebirthbikes (Aug 30, 2012)

*what to do with it huh...*



msreust said:


> The chainring on my bike is essentially "flat" (not "dished" like later chainrings....such as my 1922 Mead Ranger).  The chainring in question is not perfectly flat though.  If you run your fingers over the side of the chainring where the "ends" of the six "spokes" (for lack of a better word.....see earlier photo) of the chainring meet the outer circular part of the chainring (where the teeth are), you can feel where parts of the chainring are thicker and thinner and feels a little "wavy" because of that.
> 
> Thanks to everyone so far for all of their input!  Awesome!
> Now I need to decide what I am going to do with this bike.....
> ...




Well Mike, you could sell it to me!!! 
Seriously though, whatever you decide to do with it, I'm just happy you got to enjoy it. And if you decide to part it out... hit me up first. Id rather see that thang stay together!!!
-judd


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## josehuerta (Aug 30, 2012)

Great stuff! But some of you detected a Fauber crank - what were the "tells"? Was it simply that the sprocket tipped you off, or the markings on the arm itself? Is there a difference in the arms that a novice collector like myself will come to recognize? The threaded cups? This bike does need to be kept together, but if you part I want that crank/sprocket - I'm obsessed with it now.

I understood Mead built bikes for many others before its own decline, when Schwinn began making them for Mead. So did Great Western enter the picture early on and would that also help date it?


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## Balloontyre (Sep 17, 2012)

*MMMMMi*



AntqByk said:


> No m hubs were made, turn it over.... Lol




ND, made the model M front hub, also MX, SM, BM, maybe others that include the letter M.


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## hoofhearted (Sep 17, 2012)

IN MY POSSESSION is a tall frame MEAD diamond-frame roadster.  Just the frame .. crank set and fork.  It sports 
a Fauber crank set.  Fauber is an Indiana thing.  One-half-inch pitch on the spider-web (most commonly seen) ring.
The Fauber inch-pitch rings will have a little, mini tooth (more like a bump) between each drive tooth.

Just posting an observation ... not braggin' or complainin'.

When i see Fauber crank sets on a Mead ... i think Great Western.  i could be very wrong in my assumed thinking.

...... patric cafaro


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## josehuerta (Sep 17, 2012)

Love the Roadster, could we see pictures of it?


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## hoofhearted (Sep 17, 2012)

GLAD YOU ARE EXITED about this tall frame ... will get pics out sometime .. currently writing and doing 
camera work for The Soul Searchers article to be published in Classic bicycle News for Sept./Oct. 2012.

It's a good thing my ass don't itch .. 'cause i don't have time to scratch it !!!

...... patric cafaro


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## Larmo63 (Sep 18, 2012)

Who farted.....?


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## Balloontyre (Sep 20, 2012)

*Great Western*

Had a great conversation the other day with a historian of Great Western, very knowledgeable of the bikes produced by Great Western Manufacturing Co.
I'm told that GW did not make bikes or frames for Mead, just some pieces only, so now the fun can resume to identify the frame in question.  What is it?????


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## MOTOmike (Sep 30, 2012)

*I'm posting this bike for sale in the WTB section*

Check out the for sale section if interested in purchasing.
Mike


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## CrownKing (Mar 2, 2014)

*Mead*



MOTOmike said:


> I did check it out.  The Mead Pathfinder does look quite nice.
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> ...



 Sorry for the late response! LOL We've probably talked since..but I just was perusing old posts for misc. photos. This is GW made, most components; frame, fenders, fork, and of course crankset. Mead assembled these bikes from the ordered parts. The clue on fenders...GW was the only factory to braze-in the dropstand clips, and your photo confirmed that. Nice bike.


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