# I Need advice



## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 26, 2016)

This is my 1899 very rare Swell During.  As you can see in the picture, the horizontal bar has been dented.  My question is:  should I take it to a body shop and see if they can get the dents out or would it be better to leave it as is?  I am not planning to "restore" it.  It has the original paint (worn but still nice).  As far as I know, it is the only one in existence.  The bar at one time was bent.  I know that because the owner before me told me he had had it straightened.  It does not show any bending now, but the dents are there....I would appreciate any and all advice and help.  Thanks, Pete Allen


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## Brian R. (Dec 26, 2016)

Fill with auto body filler?


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## Brian R. (Dec 26, 2016)

....but only if you're going to paint it. Otherwise I say leave it. It doesn't look that bad - adds character.


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## fordmike65 (Dec 26, 2016)

"Leave it be". Being that it's still in original condition, any repair will be obvious. The imperfections just add to it's history.


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## mickeyc (Dec 26, 2016)

fordmike65 said:


> "Leave it be". Being that it's still in original condition, any repair will be obvious. The imperfections just add to it's history.




Amen to that.


Mike


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 26, 2016)

Thank you for the advice....I will leave it be, put on tires and ride it in the Good Old Days Parade on June 2nd.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 26, 2016)

I'd like to see the head badge on that one. You say "Swell During"? Chain ring kinda looks Snell to me. V/r Shawn


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## bikewhorder (Dec 26, 2016)

I know I've seen those sprockets before but I don't know where.  As for the dent  I would also just leave it be if it were mine but I understand the desire to fix it.  Since its steel you could always try to gently cut it out and weld in a new piece and rusticate the finish but that would take some skill and luck to pull it off to where it would never be noticed.  Not really worth the risk and effort in my opinion.


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## corbettclassics (Dec 26, 2016)

I've seen that sprocket on the "PATEE" before.


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 26, 2016)

Freqman1 said:


> I'd like to see the head badge on that one. You say "Swell During"? Chain ring kinda looks Snell to me. V/r Shawn


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 26, 2016)

corbettclassics said:


> I've seen that sprocket on the "PATEE" before.[/QUOTE
> 
> The bike has a Patee connection and that is quite a story....Patee did not mfg. bikes is 1899.  The belief is that he was in jail that year and Mr. During might have bought stock parts and shipped them to Ft. Scott, Ks.  A partnership was formed between During and my wife's great granddad.  It was called During Cycles & Sales.  They manufactured and sold the bikes.  I have documentation that on a sales trip her great uncle turned in an order for 4 or 5 hundred.  I don't know how many were sold, but this one has been in our family since 1969 and it has been traced back to two previous owners...it was once bought for $2.00 and later traded for a book.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 26, 2016)

Digg'n that badge! Thanks for sharing. V/r Shawn


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## Rambler (Dec 26, 2016)

Some additional information...
http://www.thewheelmen.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=287
http://www.thewheelmen.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8602


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## Duchess (Dec 26, 2016)

You might try someone who does paintless dent removal and see what they say/can do.


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## GTs58 (Dec 26, 2016)

I blew up your picture and it sure looks like it's more involved than just removing a dent. The seam in the tubing has opened up. No way to fix that while saving any paint in the area.


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## locomotion (Dec 27, 2016)

Brian R. said:


> Fill with auto body filler?




never on a bike, please

I don't know how handy you are with a torch, or if you know an older welder ..... don't go in a body shop they won't know how
but remove all the paint from the surrounding area and just braze the whole area with brass
this is the way it was done back in the day (even on new bikes) to remove any dents or imperfections prior to paint

I have sand blasted and restored many TOC bikes and you would be surprised how many have been brazed to remove dents prior to painting


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## Iverider (Dec 27, 2016)

That's a pretty deep dent. If it's deformed the tube outside of the tube circumference (which is probable) filling it with anything won't make it look much better. I'd probably leave it as is or find a metal magician who has a lot of experience. The chainring is a Fauber which were used on lots of bikes.


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## Iverider (Dec 27, 2016)

I found this video of how to use frame blocks to repair a frame. It won't completely solve your problem and will likely mess up the paint in the immediate area.


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 27, 2016)

That is a very interesting video and I sincerely appreciate all the help and advice.  At this point I am going to leave it as is.   I would hate to mess it up.  My next question has to do with market value...would anyone like to give me an appraisal price based upon the background I have presented?  Thanks a lot to everyone.


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## bikewhorder (Dec 27, 2016)

Harold (Pete) Allen said:


> That is a very interesting video and I sincerely appreciate all the help and advice.  At this point I am going to leave it as is.   I would hate to mess it up.  My next question has to do with market value...would anyone like to give me an appraisal price based upon the background I have presented?  Thanks a lot to everyone.



Despite being somewhat obscure, it isn't really that unique relative to other bikes at the time. Its hard to give an accurate appraisal based on one blurry partial picture but I would say the value is about $400-700 and that could be generous in this venue.  It might be worth more if it has some rare rear hub.  Most of the value would be in the grips if they are nice.


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## corbettclassics (Dec 27, 2016)

They were also making baseball mitts in 1899.  At one time the workers went on strike for s short period due to a reduction in 10% of
their wages.  They also had a large order for bicycles from Manila for 50 bikes at that time as well.

Here is an 1899 add showing them selling their bicycles for 1899.  I also have an add for 1900 showing their racer with them saying
how they have sold more racers in the last 2 seasons ( 1899 and 1900 ) than any other U.S. bicycle manufacturer.  

These adds were in March 1899 - ( lots of stuff in 1899 for Patee )


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## corbettclassics (Dec 27, 2016)

Freqman1 said:


> I'd like to see the head badge on that one. You say "Swell During"? Chain ring kinda looks Snell to me. V/r Shawn




You're right about "Snell" and the connection with that crank.

Here's an interesting add for "Snell" ( showing that crank ) and saying they are "Swell" wheels!!  I think they are referring to that the
wheel is sort of like a great wheel but using the word "Swell".


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 27, 2016)

Is the "Swell Snell" a 1899 ad?  Now we know where the name "Swell During" came from.  It gets more interesting all the time.  So my assumption that Patee did not mfg bikes in 1899 is erroneous?


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## Iverider (Dec 27, 2016)

I'd love to see some clearer better lit photos if you can post them. It appears to have a set of quill pedals which are rather valuable. The saddle looks short (front to back) like a ladies model, but I can't be sure from the pics. The Chainring looks like it has good nickel which is also of value. I'd agree with Bikewhorder's valuation, but I would lean a little more toward the middle to high side. That dent is the only real detractor in my opinion.


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 27, 2016)

http://www.thewheelmen.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8602

this is from pictures of my original post....if you would like more just let me know.


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## corbettclassics (Dec 27, 2016)

Sure is a great looking TOC bike!


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 27, 2016)

GTs58 said:


> I blew up your picture and it sure looks like it's more involved than just removing a dent. The seam in the tubing has opened up. No way to fix that while saving any paint in the area.




What you are seeing in the picture is not a seam, but is a white stripe.  I can't find a seam in the tubing.  The dent is there and I think I will leave it there.  Thanks for your input.


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 27, 2016)

Here are more pictures I just took with better lighting, thanks for looking.  I have two seats that came with the bike...one has been recovered (locally) and the other is a Troxel but I don't think it is as old as the bike.  I also have one of the original wood wheels (warped and came apart at the seam).  I don't know if it could be repaired...all the pieces are there.


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## corbettclassics (Dec 27, 2016)

It's so hard to find such nice examples that still have all the filigree work still intact.
What a great example this bike is even with the dent..!!


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## bikewhorder (Dec 27, 2016)

Yes its nicer than I thought.  I love all those old decals and pinstripes!  Pretty sure that drop stand is a later add on though.


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 27, 2016)

Yes, the drop stand is for my Hawthorne....I just used it to prop the bike up for pictures.  I thank you all for the great lessons I learned today.  I have a picture of the bike taken in 1899 and the saddle I have on the bike and the seat post are different from the one in the picture.  In the old picture it definitely is a longer, men's seat.  But that is the seat that came to me with the bike and until I can find another, it will have to do. 

So, to sum it up, I have a "Swell During" manufactured in Ft. Scott by HP During and AC Penniman & Sons Hardware (my wife's great grandfather). The wheel was put together using parts from various sources in a leased two story building at 113 Market Street....mostly Patee and Snell, and it was named after the "Swell Snell".  I believe all parts are original except perhaps the seat and seat post (according to the 1899 picture) and the current metal clad wood wheels.  BTW my wife bought the bike in 1969 for $75.00.  Sometime it suffered a severe blow that dented the frame.  

The wheels are 25" diameter by 1 1/2" wide.  Hopefully someone can point me to a pair of tires that I can mount on it so I can ride it in the parade on June 2nd.  Also, I have turned the handle bars the other way to match the old picture.  The front wheel was missing several spokes and I have it on the bench in the process of re-threading it with new spokes.  That won't be good either...new shiny spokes?  Maybe someone has some old spokes and nipples that would match mine...I need about 20.  I believe they are 12" long.  I have had a great day visiting with you all!

this photo is from 1899 and is probably the only surviving one


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## cyclingday (Dec 27, 2016)

The warning bell is really interesting on that bike.
It looks like it had a linkage from the grip to the tire.
Does the grip twist to activate the bell, or did it have a thumb lever?


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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Dec 27, 2016)

cyclingday said:


> The warning bell is really interesting on that bike.
> It looks like it had a linkage from the grip to the tire.
> Does the grip twist to activate the bell, or did it have a thumb lever?




There was a cord that runs from the thumb lever, through the guide and then on down to the bell.  In the above pictures all three items can be seen in successive pictures.  I haven't seen that many old bikes or bells but I have never seen one like this one.


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## filmonger (Feb 5, 2017)




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## Harold (Pete) Allen (Feb 5, 2017)

I showed this post to my wife.  She has a lot of stuff from the old Penniman Hardware Store.  She went to the closet and brought out salesman's samples of of a catcher's mitt, fielders glove and a boxing glove.  The catchers mitt has no markings on it, but the other two do.  I can't make out what it says, but I believe they are trademarks.  Tomorrow when the light is better I will try again with a magnifying glass.  Maybe it will say "Mfg. by Patee".
We have numerous sporting goods from the old store, tennis rackets and display holder and some other baseball items and there may be more.  This just makes me want even more to get up there in the barn loft and rummage around.  Thanks for the post and I will take some pictures tomorrow.

Pete


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