# War-time or maybe pre-war ladies Royal Enfield with undated SA hub



## 3-speeder (May 20, 2021)

I picked up this bike from CL last year but never did much more than remove the rear rack and quadrant shifter.  Recently I took the time to dig into it a bit more and was pleasantly surprised.  It seems that this bike may be a wartime machine.  It has Dunlop War Grade tires, a black SA quadrant shifter, and instead of a headbadge the logo is painted onto the headtube.  It is not in bad shape for it's age and I plan to rehab it and make it into a rider again.  I found an old posting here that describes a similar machine with similar components but no date was ever firmed up on that one.  Any info would be appreciated.  Link to other post below.  I thought maybe the leather cable straps were a home made fix but the other poster mentions them on that machine as well








						I Have This Old Bike................ | Classic Balloon Tire Bicycles 1933-1965
					

I was just given this old Royal Enfield 3 speed from a guy thats about 70. He said her received it from his uncle when he was 14 and it was not brand new at that time. So far here are the details that I have.  * Royal Enfield frame - obviously made in england like the frame says. * Frame...




					thecabe.com


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## 3-speeder (May 20, 2021)

I haven't seen an oil port cover like this one.  It appears to have a patent number and say "Garland"?  Best thing was that the wheel with this old SA hub spun like a top and had a beautiful tick, tick, tick, tick....












Dunlop War Grade tires.








The rack that came on this bike is currently on my 1950 Schwinn World








Black quadrant shifter








Looks like I'll need a pin spanner for the bb




Dunlop rim


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## juvela (May 20, 2021)

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always fun to see the cannons chainwheel    

are the lightweight orange lines at the trailing edge of the stern mudguard the remains of a transfer or just scratches?

head transfer may be decalcomania...or it may be varnish fixing

headset appears a Brampton item

@dnc1     shall be able to share some of his high lumen archival treasure


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## 3-speeder (May 20, 2021)

Orange lines on rear mudguard appear painted on like fancy pinstripes.... maybe a transfer?


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## gkeep (May 20, 2021)

That looks like it will clean up very well. No date on the AW hub and blackout parts sure sounds wartime. The use of leather straps to hold the cables is interesting, seems like a typical war time metal saver. My wife loves riding her 1951 Armstrong, these bikes just have that nice "sit up and beg" riding posture for us older riders.


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## 3-speeder (May 21, 2021)

Forgot to add this shot of the B-dub front hub.  This wheel also spins like a champ.  Well stored bike.
Bayliss Wiley & Co. Ltd. ads courtesy of Grace's Guide here: https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Bayliss,_Wiley_and_Co


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## bikerbluz (May 21, 2021)

Very cool bike, love that chain ring!!


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## juvela (May 21, 2021)

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B - W -

they produced some quality innovative products during the interwar period and the immediate postwar time

here is an advert for their oil bath bottom bracket:





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## dnc1 (May 22, 2021)

They started using that style of top run chainguard in the 1940 catalogue, but interestingly only on the single speed models; the 3-speeders used a full chainguard.
This chainguard design had disappeared by the 1950 catalogue,  so that definitely gives you a 10 year dating time span.

I wonder if your 3-speed hub is a later upgrade by a previous owner.
Although,  being from the wartime period they may have mixed and matched models maybe?
The hub oiler looks a little chewed-up around the edges, perhaps it has been re-used from another purpose?

Unfortunately catalogues are not currently available for the years 1941 to 1949.


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## 3-speeder (May 22, 2021)

If that oil port cover had said "Levis" on it I would know exactly what happened.  Haha.  I thought it looked like a rivet off a pair of blue jeans... just happened to fit.


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## 3-speeder (May 24, 2021)

What can anyone tell me about British war-time bicycle production? @Mercian 
How about the run time of the non-dated SA hubs? @SirMike1983


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## SirMike1983 (May 24, 2021)

On the no-date hubs: from what I have seen of them, probably right before WWII to early 1950s era. The no-date hubs I've opened all looked to be from the early years right before WWII through 1940s right after WWII. None seemed later than 1952 to me. And most seemed even a little earlier - 1940s era.


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## FICHT 150 (May 25, 2021)

The sprocket on that hub is retained with a split ring, war era hub would be threaded on the driver.
Neat bike.
Keep in mind the hubs from 1940 and prior had a single digit code, ie 1940=0

Ted


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## 3-speeder (May 26, 2021)

I was looking at my '39 hub, AW-9, and remembered that when I cleaned it up I didn't unthread the sprocket from the driver. As you noted this one has the three tab sprocket and split-ring. I figured it was a later model than that one. I'm still thinking the bike is war era. Perhaps the 3-speed was a later upgrade? That might explain the chainguard.


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## SirMike1983 (May 26, 2021)

Could be a replacement driver too. I've seen those added to earlier hubs.


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## Upchuck79 (May 27, 2021)

Great pictures - this is very helpful to those of us who have old Brit bike parts collecting dust. Just the impetus I need to pull out the Sunbeam and post pictures to benefit from the CABER input. Thanks for posting the as is, updates on the progress you are making along the way most appreciated.


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## 3-speeder (May 27, 2021)

Upchuck79 said:


> Great pictures - this is very helpful to those of us who have old Brit bike parts collecting dust. Just the impetus I need to pull out the Sunbeam and post pictures to benefit from the CABER input. Thanks for posting the as is, updates on the progress you are making along the way most appreciated.



Thank you.  Can't wait to see your Sunbeam.  Definitely some experts on here that have helped me out.  I've found that my favorite thing about these old bikes is bringing them back from abandoned wrecks and getting them on the road.  I'll update this thread when I get this one rolling.


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## Upchuck79 (May 27, 2021)

3-speeder - pulled these parts out of a basement - CABER's have advised this is a '36 or '37 Sunbeam. Missing the guts for the rear hub - assuming this was a three speed and will have to collect missing cables, etc. Wheels and spokes look good and should clean up well. Will follow your progress with a keen eye. Do you get parts from the UK or can you find them stateside? GLWTR!


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## 3-speeder (Jun 23, 2021)

I got started on the rehab of this bike.  The disassembly has gone pretty smoothly which makes me again think that this was a well stored bike, most likely inside. Two days of pictures.




















Both bb cups unscrewed easily with my pin spanner and the parts went into the degreaser.  B W spindle.













When my project manager calls for a break, I take a break


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## juvela (Jun 23, 2021)

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thanks very much for this update!  🧑‍🔧

its always a treat to see the calibre of the older Brit headset and bottom bracket fittings vs what came subsequently...🚵‍♀️

will frame be vectoring into the soup?

inspector's portrait might be a good fit over in the feline portraiture thread at the lounge    😉 🐱


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## 3-speeder (Jun 24, 2021)

I plan to clean up the frame but maybe only a gentle warm water washcloth over the headbadge and other transfers, if I dare try that.  That is one that appears very delicate and I don't want to harm it at all. Other areas will get delicately cleaned, polished and waxed.  Chrome should clean up and polish well. My Dunlop rims looked excellent inside.  I'll get pics up as I get to them.  It's a fun project for me.


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## juvela (Jun 24, 2021)

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project manager appears rather nonplussed with your efforts...

...perchance he is one of those managers who sets an impossibly high standard...😼


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## 3-speeder (Jun 25, 2021)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> project manager appears rather nonplussed with your efforts...
> 
> ...



That look was saying, "Why haven't you started petting me yet? Put that thing down.  It's break time."


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## 3-speeder (Jun 27, 2021)

The disassembly is complete.  The headset was a little seized up so I soaked the threads with Kroil and let it sit.  The next day it came apart pretty smoothly with the use of an adjustable spanner that I was able to borrow from my LBS.  Headset had floating bearing races on top and bottom with 1/8" bearings.  A little rust here and there but I expected that.  Nothing that won't clean off.





























It would be nice if I could get the whole bike to shine like it does underneath where the cable strap was.


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## juvela (Jun 27, 2021)

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thanks so much for this update

its moving right along  😉 

is shell 68mm 24TPI and steerer/headset 24TPI?

head parts reminiscent of Brampton but since BB is BW a Brampton HS might be somewhat surprising...

hope you were able to placate project manager  😸

they sometimes run a tight ship...

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## gkeep (Jun 27, 2021)

Test out rubbing pound on that paint after a good cleaning and you may be surprised how good it shines up. Since they dipped the frames the paint layer is generally pretty robust. Hers some before and afters of a 1960 Hercules I fixed up for a friend last fall. Simple Green, brass brush and 0000 brass wool on the chrome parts. It had been sitting in a sand floored basement for 25 years at least, black with grime and grease.


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## 3-speeder (Jun 28, 2021)

It will be fun to see that same section when I get done.  Might just come out even brighter. 🤩


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## 3-speeder (Jul 13, 2021)

I have been cleaning up some of the smaller bits and I've also cleaned and polished all but the frame.  So far, so good on the painted parts. They're looking good.  I'll get pics after I get them waxed and then polish and wax the frame.  The steerer was 26tpi while the bb cups are 24tpi. The bb measured aprox 66.5ish mm from side to side without the cups.  Is this the shell measurement you were inquiring about @juvela?


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## 3-speeder (Jul 13, 2021)

Project manager was taking a break high atop my auto


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## juvela (Jul 13, 2021)

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very nice work there!  😃👨‍🔧

thank you so much for this update with the information on the threading and shell width.

many Raleigh built cycles which have 68mm nominal shells have actual shell widths of ~66.5mm.

have long assumed the 66.5 to be a convenient fractional size.

my Raleigh Competition model of 1969 has a shell of this width.

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## Oilit (Jul 19, 2021)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> very nice work there!  😃👨‍🔧
> 
> ...



66.5 (mm) / 25.4 (mm/in) = 2.618. Closest fractional size is 2 - 5/8, or 2.625 (66.675 mm). Could that be it?


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## juvela (Jul 19, 2021)

Oilit said:


> 66.5 (mm) / 25.4 (mm/in) = 2.618. Closest fractional size is 2 - 5/8, or 2.625 (66.675 mm). Could that be it?




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yes, thank you

and evidently done by more than one producer of shells...

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anecdote -

in 1974 was visiting a bicycle mechanic friend who worked at a local Sir Wally emporium

the "Team" model machine had just come out in its red with black and yellow trim livery

this subject somehow came up in our conversation and he pointed to the Team example hanging in the display rack

it wore a thick S-A 1.5mm spacer behind its fixed cup - an all Super Record kitted cycle!


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## 3-speeder (Aug 18, 2021)

Progress is slow but it's still progress.  Getting to my favorite point, reassembly.  Just got the headset bearings packed and installed the front fork.  I decided to grease the floating races and install the 1/8" balls onto them before I put them in place. It seemed best to put the bottom race in, slip the fork in, and then install the top race, lamp bracket and cap.  I like to use the white teflon grease in the headset. It really stays put.

























I also have the brakes back together after their soak in evaporust and a thorough cleaning.  Could find no markings on them.


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## juvela (Aug 18, 2021)

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lots of slow and careful work here

its the process which makes it all worthwhile

when it is done you will know all to be as right as it was possible to make it

those floating u-race headsets can be ticklish to work with; you are going at it just right

did you check the fork's alignment in a gauge while you had it loose?

shall look forward to the next update...


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## 3-speeder (Aug 19, 2021)

juvela said:


> did you check the fork's alignment in a gauge while you had it loose?



I didn't check the forks.  I don't think that I have a tool for that.  The front wheel had appeared to ride  down the center pretty nice and seemed to be aligned okay as found.


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## 3-speeder (Sep 8, 2021)

The bicycle is now back together.  I had a few small snags along the way but nothing that I wasn't ready for.  For example, when I took apart the front hub there was surface rust on the inside.  I was trying to figure out what I could use to hold Evaporust in there, like plug up one end or pack it with paper towel soaked in it, etc. but I finally just decided to remove the spokes and drop the hub in a jar to soak.  That worked great.  I got a nice shiny hub out of it and the wheel trued up really nice after relacing it.  After removing the leather straps that held the brake cable I cleaned them with a saddle soap and then treated them with Brooks Proofide.  They cleaned up well and softened right up but while reattaching them I tore one half way through to the pin hole.  I swapped the two around and used the torn strap on the thinner down tube and was able to keep them both.  Glad I started at the thicker seat tube.

This bike rides really smooth and feels taller than it is as the frame has the less steep angles of a roadster.  I put a Bevin bell on it that I was told was a wartime piece by the seller at the spring ML swap.  Man does that bell sound sweet.  Such a mix of tones.  Seems to never sound the same twice.  Kinda sounds like the chimes from a scary movie or show that you might hear right before something bad happens or a ghost appears or something.  I fitted the SA hub with an original 20 tooth sprocket to allow an easier ride and that feels perfect.  The pins shine a little brighter and I think the headbadge transfer survived well and maybe even came out more colorful. You can really see the red in it.  It is as faint as it was found but maybe cleaner and sharper looking.  The old B66 looks right at home on 'er and feels good too.  Any way,  on to some pictures.


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## dnc1 (Sep 9, 2021)

You've done a great sympathetic conservation job on that bike.


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## 3-speeder (Sep 9, 2021)

I figured out that the original saddle that was on this bike when I bought it was this beautiful Brooks S 22/1.  I wouldn't know how to clean or treat this saddle so it will stay in storage for now.


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## SirMike1983 (Sep 9, 2021)

That is the old style of mattress saddle construction. The core of the saddle is steel, with length-wise running coil springs. The bedding is horsehair, or sometimes a heavy burlap type material, and the surface is canvas or similar cloth covered with a spray to give it a faux leather type appearance. The spray was often a nitrocellulose mix, but I'm sure other chemicals were used over the years. The proprietary name was "Fabrikoid" and it was a popular faux leather treatment done from the 1910s to the 1950s. There's not a whole lot that can be done with these saddles, except for clean with damp cloth and keep the rust away. Do not allow the saddle to become soaked with water and do not treat with anything harsh like alcohol or acetone, etc. You can't treat it with proofhide really either, as that will encourage mold to grow and/or make the cover greasy. The black surface treatment will tend to crackle and sometimes flake off if you ride it a lot.

WWII and the 1950s saw a number of leaps in terms of synthetic materials. The mattress saddles eventually turned over to foam rubber bedding and vinyl coverings during the 1950s and into the early 1960s.

I'd say set the saddle aside and put it back on if you ever go to sell it. It's more a display saddle than something you would ride a lot. I usually throw a modern Brooks B66 on bikes I want to ride.


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## 3-speeder (Sep 9, 2021)

SirMike1983 said:


> That is the old style of mattress saddle construction. The core of the saddle is steel, with length-wise running coil springs. The bedding is horsehair, or sometimes a heavy burlap type material, and the surface is canvas or similar cloth covered with a spray to give it a faux leather type appearance. The spray was often a nitrocellulose mix, but I'm sure other chemicals were used over the years. The proprietary name was "Fabrikoid" and it was a popular faux leather treatment done from the 1910s to the 1950s. There's not a whole lot that can be done with these saddles, except for clean with damp cloth and keep the rust away. Do not allow the saddle to become soaked with water and do not treat with anything harsh like alcohol or acetone, etc. You can't treat it with proofhide really either, as that will encourage mold to grow and/or make the cover greasy. The black surface treatment will tend to crackle and sometimes flake off if you ride it a lot.
> 
> WWII and the 1950s saw a number of leaps in terms of synthetic materials. The mattress saddles eventually turned over to foam rubber bedding and vinyl coverings during the 1950s and into the early 1960s.
> 
> I'd say set the saddle aside and put it back on if you ever go to sell it. It's more a display saddle than something you would ride a lot. I usually throw a modern Brooks B66 on bikes I want to ride.



Thanks for the information Sir


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