# harley frame



## iraricky (Nov 17, 2011)

hello;  i found this frame, i think is davis or harley frame , 


 

      please check


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## redline1968 (Nov 17, 2011)

better pics would help. all around the frame including the dropouts and head tube.


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## chitown (Nov 17, 2011)

That welded/solid truss rod/fork combo look pretty unique.


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## sm2501 (Nov 17, 2011)

That fork isn't a Davis built Harley fork. This one is-





Check out how the truss rods dead end into the fork blades.

Better pictures of the frame will help, but the angle of the headtube rake is a feature of an earlier year. The 1917 HD had a more relaxed headtube angle, but not quite as relaxed as that frame.


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## iraricky (Nov 19, 2011)

*Harley Frame another pictures*



iraricky said:


> hello;  i found this frame, i think is davis or harley frame , View attachment 31894 View attachment 31895      please check


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## redline1968 (Nov 19, 2011)

sorry not a winner. oh well, looks like the frame is damaged(rust)and needs serious work.


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## fattommy (Nov 19, 2011)

sm2501 said:


> That fork isn't a Davis built Harley fork. This one is-
> 
> deleted- dumb comment


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## redline1968 (Nov 19, 2011)

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


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## iraricky (Nov 30, 2011)

hello; i found this picture, and original paint harley bicycle, i think is the same frame and fork on my frame , please check, thank you.


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## sm2501 (Nov 30, 2011)

iraricky said:


> hello; i found this picture, and original paint harley bicycle, i think is the same frame and fork on my frame , please check, thank you.




The bike in the picture is most likely a Davis built Harley, but the picture isn't big enough to see the details of the frame joints. It appears to be missing the "fish mouth" or "trumpet" frame connection pieces on the lower top tube. Some just on the back connection at the seat tube, sometimes front and back, as this bike has.








Another tell tale sign of Davis built frames is the serial number orientation. Davis built serial numbers are stamped front to back on the bottom of the frame's bottom bracket, where as most other frames are stamped side to side. Here's an example of a Davis built Chief frame.





Keep in mind that all Harley bicycles were built by Davis Sewing Machine, but not all Davis frames can be Harley's. There can be subtle differences between Davis built Dayton's, Yale's, and Snell's, etc.

Confused yet?


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## sm2501 (Nov 30, 2011)

fattommy said:


> Hooray! That's what mine look like.  Lugged frame too.  My headbadge says Miami Cycle Co.




Nope, no go here. No lugged frame on the Harley, and Miami is a completely different company.


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## dave the wave (Dec 1, 2011)

*H-D fenders*

hey scott,are the fenders longer on the outer edges too? someone said they are 1 1/4 wide?


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## bricycle (Dec 1, 2011)

sm2501 said:


> That fork isn't a Davis built Harley fork. This one is-
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Scott,
So the only difference between a Davis made Elgin moto frame for instance, and a Harley frame is the headbadge??
My Sears Napoleon has the mouth or trumpet tube ends and a fork (truss rod style/placement) just like the Harley fork.
So that would be a Davis correct? "Tank area"-(no tank) is like a B-9/10 only narrower. Thanks Scott, bri.


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## sm2501 (Dec 3, 2011)

dave the wave said:


> hey scott,are the fenders longer on the outer edges too? someone said they are 1 1/4 wide?




Correct Harley fenders have 1" side on them.





See how deep these are? The sides are smooth as well.


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## sm2501 (Dec 3, 2011)

bricycle said:


> Scott,
> So the only difference between a Davis made Elgin moto frame for instance, and a Harley frame is the headbadge??
> My Sears Napoleon has the mouth or trumpet tube ends and a fork (truss rod style/placement) just like the Harley fork.
> So that would be a Davis correct? "Tank area"-(no tank) is like a B-9/10 only narrower. Thanks Scott, bri.




Different year Harley's used different frames, and there are some subtleties that are easy to overlook. There are Davis built Daytons, Snells, Yales, Elgins, Chiefs etc that could have incorrect frames for a Harley of the same years. If you study the different years, you will also see the tank spacing varies in height, and if the bars are parallel or not. 

My personal favorite year of HD bicycles is 1917, where the front fork is laid out with a slack steering angle. Gives the bike a real motorcycle look.


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## redline1968 (Dec 3, 2011)

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[;000000000000


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## iraricky (Dec 3, 2011)

*frame serial number*

hello; SCOTT thank you for the information, this  my frame serial number, i think is a chief frame, thanks a lot.


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## hoofhearted (Dec 5, 2011)

FIRST TIME responding here ... the first frame in the thread is a DAVIS frame ... 1918 model ... under-bar parallel with top bar AND very 
little air space between the two top bars ... if there is a serial number, parallel with the chain ... call that frame a DAVIS-built !!  If that par-
ticular frame has a single number above the serial number .. that number indicates the model-year ... occasionally, a second single digit ... 
in the vicinity of the chain-stays ... indicates the year of manufacture.  This particular number IS NOT ALWAYS PRESENT. 

PEEP the diagrams below ... 





 

Lil' Knee Scuffer ..... is that pic of bottom of hanger bracket from your mystery frame ??    The model-year-stamping indicates that this frame is a 1917 
design ... (because of the single 7 stamped above the serial number) ... but the frame design is an '18 when compared to the DAVIS Catalogues.  
Look ... knowing that i am typing on the couch wearing a derby .. an adult diaper and smoking a Tampa-Sweet, PERFECTO cigar ... does not make me 
immune from making an error in bicycle-judgement.   Indeed ... as i was not present when the numerical-stamping-technician placed a 7 on your bottom-
bracket ... this typist has no idea as to the motives of that technician at the time of the stamping.  Further more ... Lil' Knee Scuffer ... because of the 
human condition ... there is the possibility that i am wrong.   

As i gaze upon that bottom bracket ... i see a lot of numbers ... some overlapped ... was this hanger-bracket stamped by a stamper new to the arena of 
stamping numbers ... was the stamper told to stamp a 7 by the DAVIS Director of Numerical Stampings ... was the stamper impeded in his ( her ) stamping 
because of ... marital strife ?? ... ack-a-haul over-consumption ?? ... the perils of living in a pre-smart-phone civilization ?? ... a truly-dirty mind ?? .......... 
Perhaps we will never know.

The Dayton-Built Elgin is an impossibility ... DAVIS built Daytons ... DAVIS built Elgins for Sear's ... DAVIS built at least a halfa-dozen, other brands for Sear's ... 
DAVIS built bicycles for Ward's (Hawthorne) ... DAVIS made bicycles for many privately-owned companies in this country and elsewhere ... DAVIS also-made 
other brands i.e., Yale, Snell, National, La France, Dixie Flyer, Duro, H-D 1917-1921 and even a DAVIS-Built Davis in late 1922 ... the last moments of bicycle 
production for the Company. Now, if that Elgin Motorbike has what looks like an explosion in the seat mast ... allowing the under-tank bar to enter, and be 
attached to the seat mast ... the bicycle was made by Excelsior Manufacturing Company of Michigan City, Indiana.  The truss-rods on this Elgin do not appear 
to be permanently-attached to the bottom of the fork blades ... terminating in a washer-like appendage ... unlike the other trussed-forks in this thread.  

Lil' Knee Scuffer ... the triangulated piece of steel, at the bottom of your fork blades and truss rods, are "cast" with a tennon that fits into the bottom of the 
fork blade, and a tennon that fits into the bottom of the truss rod ... both joins being pinned and dip-brazed.  This "heavy-duty" fork also sports one-quarter-inch 
thick, truss-rod supports.  This type of fork is LESS-FREQUENTLY-SEEN ... while another type of DAVIS truss-fork ... which has its truss-rod bottoms terminating in 
a neat, little, clipped manner .. all the while being brazed to the top of the fork-blade dropout (hole) AND sporting one-eighth-inch thick, truss-rod supports.   
One, other, truss-fork design can be found ONLY on the Dayton and, occasionally, on the Yale ... whose frames are almost-always lugged ... ( just like the Dayton ).  

Beginning with the Jan. / Feb., 2012 issue of CBN ... in The Soul Searcher ... Shellac Cassidy and i are gonna do an article on frame-traits of the DAVIS Built Bicycle ... 
the reader may also learn HOW the Dayton frame is way-different than other DAVIS-built frames ... including the H-D frame.  The annual, subscription-price of CBN 
is easily-cheaper than diamonds of equal weight. 
                                                                                                                                    ........... patric 

SCOTT S. .... large package leaving Ohio Dec. 7. 

(EDIT ...  For SCOTT S. ... while re-reading this diatribe .. I do remember saying that a large package will be leaving Ohio on Dec. 7.  

SCOTT .. we now know that did not happen and we both know why.  I am very sorry to have held up the shipping with tangent-factors of my OCD ... and I am very 
happy you finally got your package in the Spring of 2013.  I would like to acknowledge the kind gesture of Mr. SCOTT McCaskey ... who shipped the item. 

There are not many things that give me trouble, SCOTT S. ... but managing to ship that large package really slapped me around and shoved a grapefruit in my face.
Although I have apologized to you, personally ... the reality of this particular thread compels me to write a typewritten apology.  Again .. I am very sorry, SCOTT S. !!
... patric cafaro)


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## sm2501 (Dec 5, 2011)

Welcome to theCABE Patric! We're glad you finally made it to the party! 

To all concerned, read, then re read and then re read again...there is a TON of information in Patric's post. Thanks for sharing Pat.


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## hoofhearted (Dec 5, 2011)

ALL ... I just read what i wrote ... and edited it out on 7/18/2013 .. and added two diagrams to post # 18 of this thread.  

This diagram published on the CABE just now, in post # 18, looks way different and more user friendly than what I just deleted .. 
AND i just now, found a spare number 7, tool-steel, number stamp inside my adult diaper.

  .............  p.


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## Bicycle Belle (Dec 5, 2011)

I don't know a thing about Harley frames but I think your name is hilarious hoofhearted. I am amused by sophmoric humor..what can I say?


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## hoofhearted (Dec 5, 2011)

BICYCLE BELLE .... am glad someone out there enjoys sophomoronic humor ... having spent thirty-plus years in the same public-school, art-studio ... teaching perception thru art instruction to junior-high students ... that sophomoric stuff is difficult to peel off !!!            

..........  patric


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## redline1968 (Dec 5, 2011)

thank you for the info. im always grateful to people that like to share information to others.


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## Downer21 (Dec 5, 2011)

That was so nice. Can we still buy a spare part on that kind of bicycle these days? Where? Any help please...


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## kunzog (Dec 6, 2011)

*Welcome Patric*

Glad to see you on here Patric. I was hoping someday that Scott would convince you to do an article on HD Bicycles for CBN.  Maybe you could do the same for Indian bicycles also.


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## hoofhearted (Dec 6, 2011)

PARTS FOR DAVIS BICYCLES can be found at many swap meets.  When you know what the parts look like .. you'll know what to buy.  Am gonna feature pics of 
necessary smalls for Davis rides ... in CBN ... Jan. / Feb., 2012.   The difficult parts are all the smalls associated with the upper-fork area and the head-tube.  
None of the smalls are impossible to acquire ... none are terribly pricey ... some may even be able to be replicated by tool makers ... 

KEEP IN MIND YOUR REASON TO BUILD A DAVIS BICYCLE ... if you are building to own one ... you will reap the reward of getting to be the steward of that unit 
for as long as you want ...within acceptable limitations of living in a mortal body.  Building that special ride for less than noble reasons ... will cause a person to be 
stuck with something that took a good bit of cheeze to complete ... and few folks care to be the next owner if the ride is way overpriced ...  or built in a manner 
that does not respect the minute detail found in the DAVIS bicycles.  Done right .. the ride will contine to be a source of joy for the builder.  

BRIAN ... good to hear from you ... wish i were able to be helpful with INDIAN bicycles ... but what i know about them could be written in bold letters on a tiny sheet 
of paper and placed in a fortune cookie.

                                                                                                          .........  patric


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## slick (Dec 6, 2011)

I could use a front fender for mine if they are easy to find? I havn't found one yet? Mine is pictured in simplemans pix on the Davis thread with the lonely rear fender only. I believe I have the correct indain chainring and will probbaly have to fab up my own tank out of steel to build my Indian replica. I'll post pictures up tomorrow of my frame and parts under the Davis thread.


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## bricycle (Dec 22, 2011)

sm2501 said:


> Different year Harley's used different frames, and there are some subtleties that are easy to overlook. There are Davis built Daytons, Snells, Yales, Elgins, Chiefs etc that could have incorrect frames for a Harley of the same years. If you study the different years, you will also see the tank spacing varies in height, and if the bars are parallel or not.
> 
> My personal favorite year of HD bicycles is 1917, where the front fork is laid out with a slack steering angle. Gives the bike a real motorcycle look.




Thank you Scott, I should have subscribed to this thread.... bri.


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## catfish (Jan 1, 2012)

hoofhearted said:


> PARTS FOR DAVIS BICYCLES can be found at many swap meets.  When you know what the parts look like .. you'll know what to buy.  Am gonna feature pics of necessary smalls for Davis rides ... in CBN ... Jan. / Feb., 2012.   The difficult parts are all the smalls associated with the upper-fork area and the head-tube.  None of the smalls are impossible to acquire ... none are terribly
> pricey ... some may even be able to be replicated by tool makers ...
> 
> KEEP IN MIND YOUR REASON TO BUILD A DAVIS BICYCLE ... if you are building to own one ... you will reap the reward of getting to be the steward of that unit for as long as you want ...within acceptable limitations of livinng in a mortal body.  Building that special ride for less than noble reasons ... will cause a person to be stuck with something that took a good bit of cheeze to complete ... and few folks care to be the next owner if the ride is way overpriced ...  or built in a manner that does not respect
> ...




Patric is the man when it comes to H-D bicycle info. He needs to write it all down........ H-D BOOK !!!!! Please!!!


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## ejlwheels (Feb 6, 2012)

*Davis built color*

Does anybody have a color sample of "Dayton Carmine" for a 1915-ish motorbike.
The color in the 1920 catalog looks a little orangey...


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## hershey66 (Feb 6, 2012)

What is a lugged frame?


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## redline1968 (Feb 7, 2012)

it is where the frame tube  ends are pressed inside another tube and the outer tube is distinguished by either a  cutout design of some sort or left as a exposed joint. this so you can see the artistic consruction work.


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## hoofhearted (Jun 16, 2013)

*A Man Needs To Own His Own Behavior .. a typewritten apology to SCOTT S. .........*

SCOTT S.  ... I hope you see my addition to entry #18 of this thread.

...................  patric cafaro


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## hoofhearted (Jul 18, 2013)

Ejlwheels ... here is a color sample of Davis DAYTON Carmine ... look at the Left Sample.

The color chip presented on the right was obtained from Google Images CARMINE.




.........................



PEEPIN' COLORS and forming judgments is rather subjective, especially on a computer screen ... 
when it's 104 degrees in the shade.  But, I'm wearin' a freshly-frozen derby and a freshly-frozen 
adult diaper and I've just sparked a Tampa-Sweet PERFECTO ... so i'm ready to talk color.

DO NOT MAGNIFY THE COLOR SAMPLES ... they will speak to you better if kept small.

NOW ... HERE IS THE PROBLEM with peepin' colors on a lit screen ... if your vision is soakin' up 
those colors and the lit screen is entirely-too vertical ... your peepers will see a totally different 
color than if the lit screen was more in a "laid-out-flat-AWAY-from-you" position.

IF YOU ARE USIN' A LAPTOP ... peep the color chips while lifting the front-leading edge of the keyboard.
BECOME AWARE OF CHANGES YOU LIKE .. and the ones you don't.  Subjective .. ain't it ??!

NOW ... If you are using a tower-computer with a stationary, lit-screen monitor ... feel free to lift your 
keyboard as high as you feel safe.  You probably won't see much of a color change within your monitor .. 
unless your keyboard is casting a shadow across your lit-screen monitor.  

I HAVE NEVER TRIED COLOR PRINTING A PAINT, COLOR CHIP.  Perhaps this could help isolate the color.

Ejlwheels .. boys .. and girls ... this is about the limit of my charm in gettin' you to contemplate the "ins" and 
"outs" of computerized color peepin'.

NOW .. it's time for YOU to use your judgment.  As for me ... i'm goin' in for another fresh-frozen derby / adult-
diaper combo.  The mosquitoes are killin' me out here tonight.

..............  patric


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## sm2501 (Jul 18, 2013)

Here's an example of 1912 Dayton "Carmin"



Here's Huffman's 1936 "Carmin"


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## hoofhearted (Jul 18, 2013)

*Color Thoughts*

It's Not As Confusing As It Seems ... well, maybe it is ................


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## chitown (Jul 19, 2013)

hoofhearted said:


> It's Not As Confusing As It Seems ... well, maybe it is ................





Not to mention the fact that the photo was taken on a clear sunny day which will effect the color selections. Best to shoot for true color on an overcast day without direct sunlight. The blue sky will cool the carmine... not to mention the transparency, viscosity, reflectivity or opacity of this nearly century old paint (whose recipe is illegal in most states... okay all states). All background colors will also reflect in the paint such as green grass will "brown" a bright red paint job if taken a photo and sampled. And so on.


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## fordsnake (Jul 19, 2013)

chitown said:


> Not to mention the fact that the photo was taken on a clear sunny day which will effect the color selections. Best to shoot for true color on an overcast day without direct sunlight. The blue sky will cool the carmine... not to mention the transparency, viscosity, reflectivity or opacity of this nearly century old paint (whose recipe is illegal in most states... okay all states). All background colors will also reflect in the paint such as green grass will "brown" a bright red paint job if taken a photo and sampled. And so on.




That's why I always use my PMS swatch book...no variables, not subjective...just a true color match   http://www.printingassoc.com/


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## sam (Jul 19, 2013)

--after you nail the color---next you got to get the pigment size--are your color will not be THE color


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## ejlwheels (Jul 19, 2013)

And, no doubt, even the original paint has oxidized and/or faded and/or shifted since it was applied.


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