# Can anyone help identify this bike? Also, how should I go about gently cleaning it?



## JoeBass (Oct 31, 2021)

Flea market find today! No head badge, just an old Reynolds sticker on the seat tube. Gallows seat post and 28" single tube tires. Anyone recognize the maker? Also, I'd like to just gently clean the bike. What's the best way to go about doing that without removing some of the (barely) remaining paint and pin striping? Thanks very much in advance! Joe


----------



## dnc1 (Nov 1, 2021)

Not sure who made it, but the frame looks like it has sustained some impact damage in the past.
Top and down tubes look bent out of shape; this could be a trick of perspective/camera I guess, but look distorted to me.
I don't think those crudely painted pin stripes are in any way original to that frame; no-one would paint over that Reynolds transfer in my opinion.


----------



## bikiba (Nov 1, 2021)

dnc1 said:


> Not sure who made it, but the frame looks like it has sustained some impact damage in the past.
> Top and down tubes look bent out of shape; this could be a trick of perspective/camera I guess, but look distorted to me.
> I don't think those crudely painted pin stripes are in any way original to that frame; no-one would paint over that Reynolds transfer in my opinion.



fork looks every so slightly tweaked backwards as well


----------



## the tinker (Nov 1, 2021)

Nice find. Sorry, can't help you with the make, but someone here will recognize it. Going to be a nice looking rider, as is.


----------



## dnc1 (Nov 1, 2021)

bikiba said:


> fork looks every so slightly tweaked backwards as well



I agree, that's also noticeable in the close up photo of the headtube/fork crown area; the lower headrace just looks a little misaligned. 
Interestingly @JoeBass, that is a pre 1924 'Reynolds' transfer (so that gives you a latest date range for the frame) but the fork crown looks to be wearing a later (chrome plated) cover.
Chrome plating wasn't introduced until 1929(ish).


----------



## dnc1 (Nov 1, 2021)

the tinker said:


> Nice find. Sorry, can't help you with the make, but someone here will recognize it. Going to be a nice looking rider, as is.



I agree here too. Would still make a nice rider as is. 
Just I wouldn't invest any more money in a potentially damaged frame.
Steel is pretty forgiving though after all, so could be ridden if you are OK with it.
WD40 and 'flour grade (0000) wire wool should clean up the remaining paintwork,  just avoid the 'Reynolds' transfer and what remains of the headbadge transfer.


----------



## gkeep (Nov 1, 2021)

Is the white paint covering the head badge decal?


----------



## JoeBass (Nov 1, 2021)

Nope, the white paint was behind the decal, and there are some very minor bits of the decal remaining. In "real life" nothing is bent (or appears bent) but it does look like that in the photos (doesn't it look like that in every photo of a bike?) 

My intention was to just give it a basic "clean-up" and then use it as a rider, but it has those blasted 28" single tube tire rims on there and only the front tire is holding air. Looks like the valve has ripped off the rear tire. Is there any way to get this rideable again without buying a Dean repro tire?


----------



## dnc1 (Nov 1, 2021)

As I said  earlier,  it could be a trick of perspective or the camera re the frame tubes, but the fork still looks out of line with the head tube to me.
I'm not trying to be negative unnecessarily,  just concerned for rider safety. I've seen the damage a snapped fork steerer can do to someone.


----------



## Freqman1 (Nov 1, 2021)

Looks tweaked to me too. Throw a straightedge on it and see what you get. I don’t think it’s enough to affect riding under normal circumstances but that fork definitely needs some attention. V/r Shawn


----------



## locomotion (Nov 1, 2021)

nice early Reynolds decal
how's the weight?


----------



## redline1968 (Nov 1, 2021)

Yeah the fork looks damaged and so is the lower tube looks damaged slightly bent inwards not good probably won't have to worry about cleaning it gently


----------



## mongeese (Nov 1, 2021)

Foremost popped in my head yet the flared headtube is usually a sign of a well built bicycle. Wrong seat to be sure- thinking club racer or tourer. - take fork out and pop that crown cover off- and show bottom bracket on the bottom etc. 
The lugs look well filed yet need close up. The bike took a hit head on - that fork cap is ugly and what is underneath may hold some answers. English am thinking and not pre 33


----------



## JoeBass (Nov 1, 2021)

Found a serial number stamped on the seat tube. It's stamped "R51" and "889". I was thinking that the "R51" might stand for "Regular 51cm" but why would American builders be using centimeters. Measured the frame and it is indeed 51cm center to center. Hmm. Even British builders wouldn't be using centimeters (I don't think).


----------



## locomotion (Nov 2, 2021)

Looks like the bike that @Schwinny just found.
You guys can compare notes .....
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/20s-30s-english-mystery-bike.199216


----------



## Schwinny (Nov 2, 2021)

I think after looking at a couple hundred of this style in the last several months, there are a lot of old bikes from the "Birmingham" bike building camp. They seem to all be similar and use many of the same parts.
This one has plain lugs and rear dropouts.
Look under the seat at how thick the seat tube is. Thats mild steel.
Seems like a lot of American parts on it but I think it is a Birmingham frame from the 30's
That head set style is earlier and I now consider this a clip stem style but this one obviously isn't.
Reynolds 531 started in 36' and before that, there were a couple different "High Manganese" or whatever decals. Maybe both at the same time if they were still offering the previous tube sets.
I think how the seat stays wrap around the seat tube is  teller for someone that recognizes that building style. I've seen it before but can't remember....


----------



## locomotion (Nov 2, 2021)

JoeBass said:


> Found a serial number stamped on the seat tube. It's stamped "R51" and "889". I was thinking that the "R51" might stand for "Regular 51cm" but why would American builders be using centimeters. Measured the frame and it is indeed 51cm center to center. Hmm. Even British builders wouldn't be using centimeters (I don't think).



from what I was reading on Wiki, the British, like a lot of other countries have been using almost exclusively the metric system since at least the late 1800's-early 1900's


----------



## Schwinny (Nov 2, 2021)

locomotion said:


> from what I was reading on Wiki, the British, like a lot of other countries have been using almost exclusively the metric system since at least the late 1800's-early 1900's



Not so on my 30's Armstrong.  Maybe @dnc1 could chime in on that one. I think the issue is, at least the problems I had with the fasteners is that the English oldies are using 26tpi nuts and bolts whereas we are all now using 24tpi. I am seriously tired of 1/4"-26 nuts. They will go on to a 24 tpi bolt the full length of the nut before they pinch. Opposite the same. I tried to just replace a couple missing lock nuts and clamp bolts and was firmly rejected. Luckily I found others, it all worked out.
Im not sure when the English went metric but over there, I think "English thread" means 26tpi


----------



## Mercian (Nov 3, 2021)

Hi, All,

Metric as a general thing only came to the UK mid 1970's (shortly after we stopped having 240 pence to the £). It may have been something to do with joining the Common Market at that time. It was introduced onto the school curriculum around 1976. I was one of the kids who started with Imperial measures, then had to learn a new system halfway through. (-:

It wouldn't be a big surprise to me, though, if it were a French or Italian made bike. They both were/are big into racing, use Metric units, and had many small builders of bikes willing to import parts.

Best Regards,

Adrian


----------



## dnc1 (Nov 3, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Hi, All,
> 
> Metric as a general thing only came to the UK mid 1970's (shortly after we stopped having 240 pence to the £). It may have been something to do with joining the Common Market at that time. It was introduced onto the school curriculum around 1976. I was one of the kids who started with Imperial measures, then had to learn a new system halfway through. (-:
> 
> ...



Ditto. I too was at primary school in 1976 and recall metrification being introduced. 
Most British companies still used 'imperial' threading up until the mid 70's; but as @Schwinny rightly states the cycle industry used a 26tpi standard called 'BSC' ('British Standard Cycle' thread) almost exclusively; close to American threading,  but not interchangeable. 
There were a few exceptions, "Chater-Lea" used some very odd thread sizes during their production period.
Ì think it's probably a Hercules built frame, they built so many under different marque names, and were the biggest exporters to the U.S.A. and Canada for several decades.
If you want to check if it's French your best option is to check the bottom bracket threads for size.
If it's Italian, both bottom bracket cup threads will be right-hand threads.
As has been mentioned above, take the forks off so we can see the actual fork crown. It may help with identification.


----------



## ditchpig (Nov 6, 2021)

Might be BSA... head badge decal remnants look similar?


----------



## JoeBass (Nov 6, 2021)

The bike weighs in at 32 pounds, but feels heavier.


----------



## Schwinny (Nov 6, 2021)

Although a lot of those forks are the same on these old bikes, the ones with fork crowns all seem to have the slot, or some shape as a window cut into the side. Although some are similar, each company had its own shape. Even if just a rectangular cut-out, there are different lengths and heights of cutouts.
This one seems to be an oval or pill looking shape.
I think that somehow that will be a makers mark.
Also you have rear dropouts without a "rear fork" rear facing. Not a strict rule but that is generally a pre and post WW2 thing. Rear facing before and dropouts after. Of course track bikes continued to have rear facing...

Also... H.Lloyd in London, who have the exclusive rights to Reynolds transfer decals starting from day one, Shows this version as the second version and the last before the 531 Alloy.








						Reynolds
					

Reynolds Decals



					h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com
				



I imagine that the 531 and previous types were available at the same time though. No telling how long was the overlap or if it even stopped. The frame below only weighs 4.8 lbs and visually is obviously a high tensile frame. But it did not originally come with a Reynolds decal. Just an Armstrong "British Steel" decal.

Here is a couple pics of a 30's Armstrong Bare frame and the fork with crown slot for reference.


----------



## Schwinny (Nov 6, 2021)

I tried my very limited list of early English Bicycle brands. But if someone knows a lot of old UK makers names, they could go to H. Lloyd and use the search function for decals.
I tried BSA, Hercules, Sunbeam, Armstrong, Peerless, Flying Scott and a couple others I can't even remember now.
I think there is enough of the head badge there to make a comparison if one is finally found.


----------



## dnc1 (Nov 7, 2021)

There is at least one other version of the 'Reynolds' tubing transfer between the one on this mystery bike and the Reynolds 531 version.
The one that mentions 'High Manganese' steel, seen here.....





As to the rear dropouts, I'm not sure what you mean by "rear dropouts without a rear fork".  This type of dropout was a common feature on British made bicycles from the late 1920's/early 1930's to the 1980's at least.
Typically they were common on 3-speed hub geared machines pre, and post WW2, but also on singlespeed machines.
I have a 1960's 'Vindec' so equipped.

As to searching for the name via 'H. Lloyd's' wonderful website @Schwinny  that could help, but they have a relatively small percentage of the total of British makers that existed, and mostly classic lightweights at that.

People underestimate just how many manufacturers existed back then, and as in the USA you also had large manufacturers producing frames for small manufacturers on a contract basis, who would then add a decal or headbadge of their own.

The fork crown could be just a cover, not the actual fork crown.

I feel the most distinctive feature of the frame in question on this thread is the seat stay end cap  treatment where they join the seat tube/top tube lug. That looks pretty distinctive to me. 
They join at a relatively low position in relation to the main lug.
Also the position of the rear mudguard mounts on those rear dropouts is quite distinctive.


----------



## Schwinny (Nov 7, 2021)

dnc1 said:


> As to the rear dropouts, I'm not sure what you mean by "rear dropouts without a rear fork".  This type of dropout was a common feature on British made bicycles from the late 1920's/early 1930's to the 1980's at least.
> Typically they were common on 3-speed hub geared machines pre, and post WW2, but also on singlespeed machines.
> I have a 1960's 'Vindec' so equipped.
> 
> ...



In the US, the transition between rear facing dropouts  and forward facing happened during WW2. Eventually all but the racing and esoteric were forward facing. As Ive looked through so many bikes and articles in search of information on my own bike, I have noticed this as a similar transition on European bikes, of the grade in which I've been looking of course and we all know all things ar subjective. After all, it's a safety issue, the general public need their wheel to stay on in all circumstance, and the bike companies need to not be sued for people leaving their rear wheel behind.
The thought of that is kind of funny. 
I think semantics are at play here. Because of-course I'm talking of the fork crown cover and the shapes stamped into them. The shape is not whimsy, its a tell-tale somehow. I'm beginning to think this is an industry fork used by many bike builders with a distinctive cap cutout. Just casually looking through 20's/30's bikes of similar build, I've seen this similar fork on many with different cap cut-outs on the sides. I've seen it referred to as "D taper round." Mine is one of those and it looks to me like my fork and his are very similar aside from the crown cover shape stamping. Notice the same fork on the mystery bike I posted last week and it has yet another shape stamped into its cover.

It really is amazing how similar all these bikes were and its fun to see what they considered "setting themselves apart" from one another. It's kind of how I feel about diamond frame road and racing bikes, after a while, they all are really the same bike with detail and ever so slight geometry differences to set them apart.
My Armstrong is going back together slowly and I'll soon see how these old pioneers rode/ride. (sans decent tires)


----------



## dnc1 (Nov 7, 2021)

You are right of course re. the fact that many manufacturers used the same fork components to build up their own fork designs. There were only a few manufacturers of frame parts and lugs; this is why you see so many early frames mistaken for BSA built bikes, when in fact they were merely built up using BSA fittings readily purchased from their 'Parts and Fittings" catalogues. 

The only time I've heard of "D taper round" is in relation to forks but doesn't refer to the fork crown or any cut out design on the sides thereof.
It refers to the profile of the fork blades when viewed in cross-section;  ie. they start out as a 'D' section and as they taper down to the point where the front dropouts are brazed in they become gradually round or 'O' section.
This was pretty much standard on many forks, the only other option was a ' round taper' design where they are 'O' section along the whole length of the fork blade, from crown to dropout.
This didn't really change until  'aero' (ovaloid) tubing was introduced in the 1970's, think Reynolds 753.

One of the main reasons for the different shapes of cut-outs on fork crowns, and lugs, and also different/contrasting (often lighter) colours painted on head tubes (in order to make them stand out)  is to make them instantly recognisable in cycling magazine photos of the period.
I'll try to explain the main reason below why this was so.

Cycles in the UK were still marketed as adult transport from the 1920's up until the early 1960's.As has been said before, cheap cars didn't become widely available until this time.
Cycle racing was very popular, but unlike the rest of Europe we were pretty much restricted to 'time-trialliing' on public roads (massed start racing was banned for many decades). 
We have hundreds of sporting cycling clubs over here that have been organising such races for decades and decades; there were tens of thousands of clubman racers at the peak.
Cycle touring was also hugely popular pre and post WW2.
Obviously, in time-trials, riders set off individually and raced against the clock. It was, and still is, the most popular cycle participation sport in Britain. Races are still run all over the UK every week, throughout the year.
Cycling magazines,  were full of photos of riders (and their rides) participating.
But for many decades, any form of 'professionalism' (advertising) was outlawed by the governing bodies. This meant that riders machines often had manufacturers logos 'edited' out of the photos. 
Therefore distinctive frame features, whether they be unusual frame designs (such as those used by 'Thanet' or 'Bates' etc.), fancy cut lugwork, or frame colours used as a high contrast to headbadges,  became important in making bikes instantly recognisable in photos. 
Riders wore plain (often black) unadorned jerseys, although this was also done to avoid arousing the suspicions of the local constabulary in the early years.
So when reading the race reports you could tell what someone was riding, without being told what they were riding.

These became distinguishing features that filtered down through product ranges. Whether you were a kid, or an old-age pensioner you wanted to ride what the best riders were using.

And, as you say, these bikes were all practically identical,  diamond-framed machines, hard to distinguish otherwise in the largely black and white photography used at the time.


----------



## vincev (Nov 7, 2021)

Nice find,nice project.I see a few issues that may need help.


----------



## bleedingfingers (Dec 2, 2021)

I agree with it being English and definitely had a collision with something after seeing all the photo angles and bottom bearing race peaking out .
Also agree with cleaning with wd 40 and 0000 steel wool as those pinstripes are not original .
Take your time with a little tweaking could be a nice rider .


----------

