# Pre war vs post war rake and trail



## rickyd (Jun 30, 2020)

Is there a major difference in prewar vs postwar rake and or trail? The 48 is my daily rider and with a bit of momentum it can be ridden hands free. The 40 which I really like is much different, I believe if you turned the bars loose it would go down. Setting stopped the front wheel wants to flop to one side or the other. The 48 has a one inch shorter wheel base and of course seats are different. Thanks in advance for comments etc Rick


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## GTs58 (Jun 30, 2020)

This is a good one for @tripple3 

All I can say is, if the fork is bent there is no chance you'll be able to ride with no hands.


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## John G04 (Jun 30, 2020)

My panther I can ride easily with no hands, my 38 henderson which is just a truss fork I can ride no hands aswell but requires slightly more effort.


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## Tikibar (Jun 30, 2020)

My original wheels had warped rims and bent  spokes. After upgrading to a pair with straight rims and replaced the spokes and trued them, I noticed the balance improved significantly. New tubes and tires also smoothed things out.

Looking at the photos of your two bikes, the '48 which has better balance, has shiney rims, new(?) tires, smaller handlebars and no fenders. The '40 has pretty much the opposite plus a klaxon horn on one side.

Try taking the fenders off the '40 and put the wheels and handlebars from the '48 on it and see if the balance improves. If after that, there is still a difference in the balance, that would narrow it down to the frame or fork.


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## tripple3 (Jul 1, 2020)

GTs58 said:


> This is a good one for @tripple3
> 
> All I can say is, if the fork is bent there is no chance you'll be able to ride with no hands.



Thanks for the mention Gary @GTs58
I've been playing with different bikes like this for a lil' bit.
I can adjust my hips, and straighten out a bent bike, if I find its' rhythm.
Different gears/geometry will roll pretty straight, once its rolling.
Some bikes are "Squirrly". I keep a couple fingers on the bars of Aero King.
Wide bars help balance everything out.
It's a lot easier rolling, downhill is best.
To answer the question, yes, I think the head-tube angle is different on the early Schwinn frames.


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## Tikibar (Jul 1, 2020)

Off topic, but on the '48, are those Torrington Dallas handlebars? they look cool! how do you like riding with those bars?


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## rickyd (Jul 2, 2020)

Tikibar said:


> Off topic, but on the '48, are those Torrington Dallas handlebars? they look cool! how do you like riding with those bars?



I think those bars are Wald knock offs of the Torrington dallas bar no hole or script. I love them I ride in the hills around here and believe they put body in a better position to pull. I've since turned them over so as to not be quite as low. Currently think of a smaller front sprocket also! I own two old mountain bikes but prefer the Schwinn ha


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## Tikibar (Jul 2, 2020)

rickyd said:


> I think those bars are Wald knock offs of the Torrington dallas bar no hole or script. I love them I ride in the hills around here and believe they put body in a better position to pull. I've since turned them over so as to not be quite as low. Currently think of a smaller front sprocket also! I own two old mountain bikes but prefer the Schwinn ha




Sure would be nice if someone reproduced the Dallas bars, bet there's a market for them (hint, hint )


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## the tinker (Jul 2, 2020)

When I was young, I had multiple ballooners, and rode no hands for long distances on anyone of them with no problems. I'm afraid to let go today. One thing I've noticed, when I've had bikes on the work-stand, is some of them, even with the fork correctly in the head tube, you don't dare leave them facing straight. They will suddenly turn and wham against the side of the tank. [I hope I phrased that right] It's not that the fork is loose in the head tube, it's just that it flops over easily, compared to others. Maybe this makes a difference when trying to steer no handed.


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## KevinBrick (Jul 2, 2020)

My suggestion was to tighten down the bearings in the head tube just a bit .. And On the bike stand I always bungee cord the front wheel.. Especially handy when taking the bike off the stand.. Just don’t forget to take it off before you push the bike..


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## Autocycleplane (Jul 2, 2020)

Until you have a fork alignment gauge like the Park tool it's hard to understand how bent most forks are on these classic bikes, not to mention any fore/aft alignment issues suffered over its life. I think the weight distribution of the handlebars has more to do with the OPs situation than geometry differences on those 2 bikes. I imagine the headtube angle and fork length to be very similar on both of those bikes and would have similar handling characteristics when riding. 

As far as frame geometry goes, the prewar balloon bikes have a taller bottom bracket. Some of the prewar balloon models like the Model C, BA67, 1939 DX, etc. have headtube angles that are a couple of degrees more slack, which increases the front center measurement and obviously the wheelbase as well. These models do handle differently for sure, the wheel/bars do flop around more at slow speeds from the raked out head angle but they are great handling bikes at higher speeds. The chainstay lengths on the common prewar Schwinn balloon bikes are all the same - ladies/mens straight or curved - so the wheelbase differences all come from the the front center distance (BB to front axle). B10/B9 style bikes might be different, I've only had one long ago and don't know much about them.


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## Tikibar (Jul 4, 2020)

I was working on my '36 Roadster today and had pulled off the handlebars and trust rods. The bike has a dropstand, so it's pretty stable in park. But when I went to move it, since the handlebars were off, I picked up the whole bike. 

As soon as the tires left the ground, the fork spun round, so the front wheel faced backwards. Without the truss rods, there was nothing to stop the fork from going full reverse. I tried it several times and the natural balance is for the front wheel to spin a 180° and go backwards. Maybe that's what's effecting the balance on the prewars.


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## scott1race (Jul 3, 2021)

the tinker said:


> When I was young, I had multiple ballooners, and rode no hands for long distances on anyone of them with no problems. I'm afraid to let go today. One thing I've noticed, when I've had bikes on the work-stand, is some of them, even with the fork correctly in the head tube, you don't dare leave them facing straight. They will suddenly turn and wham against the side of the tank. [I hope I phrased that right] It's not that the fork is loose in the head tube, it's just that it flops over easily, compared to others. Maybe this makes a difference when trying to steer no handed.



Yes, this is perfectly normal. Fork geometry works when on the road, not when the bike is in the stand. Most bike shop photos show bikes with the fork end lower than the seat end, simply to keep the front wheel from swinging around. Otherwise put a bungee cord around the frame and wheel like the others suggest.


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## Autocycleplane (Jul 3, 2021)

Yes


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