# Hendee Mfg Co. / Indian Motocycle Co. Bicycles Information Thread



## Gary Mc

Starting to dig into the history of George M. Hendee starting with Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co. and moving through to Hendee Mfg. Co. and the Indian Motocycle Co.  This thread will run with data from the 1890's through the 1950's but as most of the research will be pre-1933, I felt it best to post it here.  I will also add "Notes & Reference" placeholders in separate posts up front for each era.  Obviously with bicycles & motorcycles were so closely linked in the early 1900's, there will also be references to their very early motorcycles I find that may be appropriate here as well.  

I encourage anyone with additional information on these great bicycles to post it here as well.  There is a lot of mystery & intrigue to this company and always the questions of who actually manufactured Indian motobikes.  Post your bikes, ads, catalogs, articles whatever you feel appropriate here to the subject matter at hand and maybe in the end we'll all have the answers we seek on these great marques of bicycling history.

*NOTE: This will be a long term project for me so I'll post what I can when I can get to it.  Work & Family Life crazy right now but plan to work on this little project as time allows.*






*George M. Hendee (1866 – 1943)*

*Photos:* 1883, Post 52; Posts 15, 53
*Articles:*Posts 13, 15, 55

*Oscar Hedstrom (1871-1960)*

*Photos:* Posts 15, 59
*Articles:* Posts 15, 28, 55


----------



## Gary Mc

*1890's*

*1890's Reference & Notes Post*

*1896*

The Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company at 478 Main Street in Springfield Massachusetts were building safety bicycles under the names of Silver King for men and Silver Queen for women.
*Photos:* Silver King bicycle in Post # 10
*Ads:* Post # 38

*1897*


*1898*

Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company went bankrupt and Hendee purchased the entire inventory at auction and set up shop on Worthington Street in Springfield Massachusetts.

*1899*

Bicycles only manufacturing & sales


----------



## Gary Mc

*1900-1909*

*1900-1909 Reference & Notes Post*

*1900*

Bicycles only manufacturing & sales
*1901*

Bicycle manufacturing & sales; Motor Bicycles launched
April 25, 1901 - Hedstrom nearing completion of gasoline powered chain driven motor for the Hendee Mfg. Co., Post 28
May 23, 1901 - Dealer story on 3 years of selling Indian bicycles. Post 29
June 6, 1901 - *The Launch of the Hendee Motor Bicycle*, Post 30
*Bicycle Ads:* Posts 27


*1902*

Bicycle & Motor Bicycles manufacturing & sales
*1903*

Bicycle & Motor Bicycles manufacturing & sales - Post 50
*1904*

Bicycle & Motor Bicycles manufacturing & sales - Posts 46, 51
*Motor Bicycle Ads & Photos:* Posts 59
*1905*


*1906*


*1907*


*1908*

*Motorcycle Ads & Photos:* Posts 41, 42

*1909*

*Motorcycle Ads & Photos:* Posts 42


----------



## Gary Mc

*1910-1919 Reference & Notes Post*

*1910-1919 Reference & Notes Post*

*1910*

*Motorcycle Ads & Photos:* Posts 41
*1911*

*1912*

*1913*

*1914*

*1915 - Return of Indian Bicycles announced for 1916 model year*

*Westfield to build new line-up of Hendee Mfg. Co. Indian Bicycles to add to their Motorcycle business:* September 25, 1915, *United States Investor* periodical reports that Hendee Manufacturing Company has entered into arrangement with the Pope Plant in Westfield, Mass. to build bicycles to add to their motorcycle line-up and calls the addition of bicycles, "the new business is an experiment however, until it proves it's worth".  Posts # 25 & 26
*1916 - Return of Indian Bicycles*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales (Bicycles outsourced to Westfield as manufacturer)
*Bicycle Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 49
*1917*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales 
*Bicycle Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 
*1918*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales 
*Bicycle Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 
*1919*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*Bicycle Brochures & Catalogs:* Post


----------



## Gary Mc

*1920-1929 Reference & Notes Post*

*1920-1929 Reference & Notes Post*

*1920*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 
*1921*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 
*1922*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 
*1923*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*On October 26, 1923, the corporate name of Hendee Manufacturing Company was changed to Indian Motocycle Company. *(Post # 25)
*Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 
*1924*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 
*1924-1926*

*Brochures & Catalogs:* Indian Motorcycle Company - Merkel Motor Wheel brochure, Post 19
*1925*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 
*1926*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*Brochures & Catalogs:* Post 37
*1927*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*Brochures & Catalogs:* Post
*Photos:* Dealership Photo, Post 24
*1928*

Bicycles & Motorcycles manufacturing & sales
*Brochures & Catalogs:* Posts 20-23
*1929*


----------



## Gary Mc

*1930-1939 Reference & Notes Post*

1930-1939 Reference & Notes Post


----------



## Gary Mc

*1940-1949 Reference & Notes Post*

1940-1949 Reference & Notes Post


----------



## Gary Mc

*1950's Reference & Notes Post*

*1950's Reference & Notes Post*


*Brochures & Catalogs:* Posts 61


----------



## Gary Mc

*The start is with Hendee & Nelson Mfg.*

The start is with Hendee & Nelson Mfg. and their safety bicycles under the names of Silver King for men and Silver Queen for women.

From Digplanet:

"In 1892 Hendee retired from bicycle racing and began making Silver King bicycles at 41-43 Taylor Street in Springfield, Massachusetts in 1895. In 1896 the Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company at 478 Main Street in Springfield Massachusetts were building safety bicycles under the names of Silver King for men and Silver Queen for women. The company went bankrupt and Hendee purchased the entire inventory at auction and set up shop on Worthington Street in 1898."​


----------



## Gary Mc

*Steve McQueen's Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Silver King*

An appropriate place to start is with one of Hendee's earliest bikes, a Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Silver King that belonged to one of the coolest cats ever, Steve McQueen.


----------



## pelletman

*1880's*

Hendee was a famous champion high wheel racer


----------



## thehugheseum

great stuff,i only wish i had anything to contribute.......i do have a very recent find that will help this thread but its fricken huge nobody will believe without pics.....so its a pics or it didnt happen thing right now

    hendee was a champion high wheeler from my understanding,hedstrom wasnt too bad himself if i remember right? i know oscar hedstrom (hendee and hedstrom started indian motocycles) raced the motorcycles they built in the early days


----------



## fordsnake

Gary, I too have taken a deep dive into the history of the Indian from its inception. To know the Indian story you have to know the man that the company was named after; George Mallory Hendee! 

Hendee was a world class cycling record holder at the tendered age of 16 years. Crowds would gathered to see him race. Towns would literally shut down to watch him pedal... shops would place placards in their windows " Gone to see Hendee race". 






From most of the information I was able to obtained...it sounds like George Hendee was bigger than life...a celebrity of sorts. He made a great deal of contacts and business acquaintances while on the cycling circuit...promoting and sponsoring bicycles. 





He was a visionary...a big picture thinker. Before retiring George saw that the high wheel racing was coming to an end with the introduction of safety cycles. George's entree to bicycling retail began as the head of the bicycle department at Merwin, Hulbert & CO. on 23rd St. in NY. 




By 1893, George opened a small retail bicycle store. 








A year later he begins manufacturing safety bicycles under the name of Hendee Bicycles. _The Silver King of Safety_.




To expand his line of bicycles he ventured into a partnership in November 1985 with Edward A. Nelson...the company was renamed Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co., makers of the Silver King, Silver Queen.


----------



## fordsnake

Here's another tidbit I discovered about the shrewd businessman George M. Hendee.


----------



## fordsnake

His partnership Edward A. Nelson (another cyclist) formed the Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co., it was short lived. 

The company folded because their retail price of the Silver King and Queen was too expensive. Department stores had undercut their product with cheaper bikes. It is interesting that Hendee allowed the company to go bankrupt, then immediately purchased the entire inventory? He started up the business again; the "American Indian" with some success. He later dropped the word American for just 'Indian' for export appeal.

I have read countless articles that clearly paint a profile of George Mallory Hendee as a savvy businessman, very competitive, a formable man that wouldn't accept "no" as an answer. He saw the future and he knew he wanted to be a stake holder in the transportation arena!

I'm going out on a limb here...and speculating that George didn't see himself as a bike "builder", the man in the background building bikes? Being behind the scene wasn't his fortay. I believe he enjoyed being the man in the front...the leader! Hendee was a class act, a salesman, a showman! 

Look at all his businesses...every one of them bared his name!





From documented evidence, Hendee was aware of the "new" automotive industry circling the transportation wagon. Bicycles were quickly losing their cache, the automotive was the emerging market. However the problem was its price; it was cost prohibitive for most people, only the wealthy could afford a motorized automobile.

Hendee knew if he could only merge his cycling passion with a motor, he could make the motorized transportation accessible for the masses and make history!
George owned a velodrome? It was here he had a ringside seat of his dream becoming a reality; often witnessing the time trials of the cyclists racing. 

Cyclist would paced behind a pseudo motorbike, called a "PACEMAKER." These were tandem bikes with motors! One man steered while the other man controlled the engine. The problem was these tandem motorbikes were unreliable, they'd failed, and would often break down with the cyclist crashing in the  tandem's wake. 

However there was one very reliable tandem gaining much acceptance: the Hedstrom tandem (pic above) built by an engineer, clock-smith and also an ex-bicycle racer, Oscar Hedstrom. 

It was after one of these trials that George introduced himself and told Oscar about his dream...to build a motocycle. 

George must have been an incredible salesman? Because Oscar stopped what he was doing and went off and built a small prototype engine, attached it to a bike in a matter of months! (that's from scratch). 





George is quickly own his way!


----------



## dfa242

Really cool stuff - I hadn't realized the Hendee/Harley relationship before.  Looking forward to further reading.


----------



## chitown

fordsnake said:


> ... speculating that George didn't see himself as a bike "builder", the man in the background building bikes?




I believe Indian used Aurora Automatic Machinery to build their 1st machines... or at least the motor and components. Aurora Automatic Machinery built lugs, brackets and other parts needed to assemble bicycles and motor cycles.

View attachment 97091 View attachment 97092


----------



## fordsnake

We know from documentation that Oscar Hedstrom produced four prototype Moto Cycles for George Hendee. After giving a public demonstration of his hill climbing motor cycle, a partnership was quickly established between Hendee and Hedstrom; the Hendee Mfg.Co. 

Hendee conceded to Oscar’s engineering talents and gave him the reigns of quality control and factory management. While Mr Hendee’s duties were to raise the capital and to run the front office.

Hedstrom quickly shipped one of his prototype motors to the Aurora factory for analytical research. He also went along and accompanied his motor for technical assistance. 

Why Aurora? Apparently the company had a previous relationship with George Hendee, providing him the castings for his Silver King and Silver Queen bicycles.

After a few months of collaboration with Hedstrom; the Aurora Company produced some refinements on Oscar’s design. Hedstrom owned the motor’s patent and the patent for the carburetor …plus several other engine related patents.

Since there was no money in the Indian coffers, George immediately struck a deal with the Aurora Co. They were to build the motor cycle engine exclusively for Indian for the first year. The second year, Aurora could not build motorcycles or motors to compete with Indian. However they were allowed to publicly sell the motors, but giving Indian a royalty for each motor.

With money to be made, Aurora quickly began selling the engine as an after market bicycle product. Subsequently they developed their own motorbike, "Thor" featuring an Indian motor knockoff, by this time Indian had advanced their motors and were now manufacturing their products in their factory under the watchful eye of Oscar Hedstrom.

Here's another unknown factoid; Hendee was not going to allow Aurora to take advantage and steal his product idea. So as the Indian Co. collected their royalties from Aurora's motor sales, Hendee & Hedstrom developed an alternative bike motor; more convenient and easy to install on any safety bicycle!


----------



## Gary Mc

*1924-1926 Indian Motorcycle Company brochure on the Merkel Motor Wheel*

Here's the I believe is somewhere between 1924-1926 Indian Motorcycle Company brochure on the Merkel Motor Wheel.  A long time Indian collector had marked this 1922 which I do not believe to be correct.  Based on artwork, Indian Motorcycle Company, front fender style and headlamp style date it to somewhere between 1924-1926 with the straight front fender at the rear following the tires contour.   Pretty sure in 1927 they migrated to a ducktail front fender coinciding with the Westfield change to this fender style in 1927.  Hopefully we can nail down a year as other brochures are captured here but I believe this is a fairly accurate assessment.


----------



## Gary Mc

*1928 Indian Bicycles Catalog Part 1*

1928 Indian Bicycles Catalog Form No. I8--5-28-10M J.H.B.

(Based on Form No. could either be 1928 or published in 1928 for 1929 Bicycles)


----------



## Gary Mc

*1928 Indian Bicycles Catalog Part 2*


----------



## Gary Mc

*1928 Indian Bicycles Catalog Part 3*

*NOTE:* Indian line-up color is Indian Red, Indian Sagamore line-up is Indian Blue in 1928.


----------



## Gary Mc

*1928 Indian Bicycles Catalog Part 4*

Back Cover


----------



## Gary Mc

*1927 For your viewing pleasure*

From the Indian Motocycle 1927 Sales Brochure for All Models (Motorcycles only)

Brown Motor Company Indian Motorcycles & Bicycles Sales & Service
Detroit, Michigan

Notice the two equipped motobikes hanging in the window front & center!!!!!!!  Wouldn't you just love to be able to step back in time & walk in this shop.....


----------



## fordsnake

Gary Mc said:


> Here's the I believe is somewhere between 1924-1926 Indian Motorcycle Company brochure on the Merkel Motor Wheel.  A long time Indian collector had marked this 1922 which I do not believe to be correct.




You are correct this Merkel brochure does not predate 1922! The Hendee Indian Mfg. Co., changed its name to the Indian Motocycle Company, Oct.26,1923, hence dating the brochure after 1923


.





Westfield began building Indians before 1916!!


----------



## Gary Mc

*Pope Westfield to build Indian Bicycles (Sept. 25, 1915)*

Here's the whole page fordsnake posted in another thread:

On September 25, 1915, United States Investor periodical reports that Hendee Manufacturing Company has entered into arrangement with the Pope Plant in Westfield, Mass. to build bicycles to add to their motorcycle line-up and calls the addition of bicycles, "the new business is an experiment however, until it proves it's worth".


----------



## Gary Mc

*Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - April 4, 1901 ad*

Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - April 4, 1901 ad 
page 20

Hendee Mfg. Co. 
Makers of Indian Bicycles
Springfield, Mass.
ad
*
Pre-Motor Bicycles ad - Bikes only at this time although plans were in the works for a Motor Bicycle.*


----------



## Gary Mc

*Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - April 25, 1901 ad  page 101*

Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - April 25, 1901
page 101
article

*Hedstrom to go with Hendee*

Hedstrom nearing completion of gasoline powered chain driven motor for the Hendee Mfg. Co.

*Hints of a Motor Bicycle with a Hedstrom designed motor to come for Hendee Mfg. Co.*


----------



## Gary Mc

*Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - May 23, 1901*

Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - May 23, 1901
page 197
article

*W.D. Wilmot's story: "A Good Indian Story"*

Dealer discusses his 3 years of dealings with Hendee Mfg. Indian bicycles. Starts third paragraph from bottom, center column.  Kind of a neat read and gives us the hint Hendee Mfg. Co. Indian bicycles date to as early as 1899.


----------



## Gary Mc

*Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - June 6, 1901*

Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - June 6, 1901
page 228
article

*The Launch of the Hendee Motor Bicycle*


----------



## fordsnake

There are many articles on the Hendee and Hedstrom partnership and their motorcycle mission from 1900-1916. What seems lost is the bicycle side of the story from 1901 to 1916. This is where the gaps are? 

It appears Hendee and Hedstrom were out to make a difference in the transportation world, but not with bicycles. It appears they produced bicycles until 1902, at which time the production of Indian motorcycles overshadowed the production of bicycles. It was not until the year 1916, when Westfield stepped in and the Indian Bicycles were back in production. 

Here’s an excerpt about George M. Hendee and the discontinuing of bicycle manufacturing for 14 years.  
*1916 Indian Bicycle Catalog, page 09* 

1897 saw the beginning of the expansion of a name that means more in the two-wheeled industry than any other today. The Hendee Manufacturing Company was formed and floor space taken in a building on Worthington Street. Here the manufacture of Indian Bicycles started and went on until 1902, when the development of the motorcycle made their discontinuance necessary because Mr. Hendee felt it imperative that he give all his time and effort to the gasoline machine.

And now, after fourteen years, 1916 again brings back the Indian Bicycle.

Why?

Because both dealer and public have demanded a bicycle of INDIAN design, of INDIAN worth and carrying the service guarantee that the name INDIAN implies. 

So once more we find the man who did so much for the bicycle again working and planning for it with the same enthusiasm that he had in his teens…


----------



## Gary Mc

fordsnake said:


> There are many articles on the Hendee and Hedstrom partnership and their motorcycle mission from 1900-1916. What seems lost is the bicycle side of the story from 1901 to 1916. This is where the gaps are?




I agree, been searching and nothing so far after 1901 until 1915 article introducing the 1916 models that you found. Still looking, hoping to find a nugget that says bicycle production being discontinued in 190_.  Trying to dig through 1901 docs now and 1902 next. I hear people talk about bikes from 1912-1915 but so far nothing to support there were any manufactured.  If anyone has proof of production these years I'd love to see it.


----------



## ejlwheels

I had heard that the Sears Chief was created in response to the popularity of Indian bicycles.
But it seems that it may have been the other way around?  Sears had a Chief in 1915, which means they had developed it in 1914 (or at least early 1915).  Perhaps because of the popularity of the Chief, they decided to experiment with marketing an Indian late in 1915?


----------



## fordsnake

ejlwheels said:


> I had heard that the Sears Chief was created in response to the popularity of Indian bicycles.
> But it seems that it may have been the other way around?  Sears had a Chief in 1915, which means they had developed it in 1914 (or at least early 1915).  Perhaps because of the popularity of the Chief, they decided to experiment with marketing an Indian late in 1915?




And that little nugget I believe is where the confusion occurs with the Davis Sewing Machine Co. who built the Chief for SEARS, and the Harley Davidson bicycle. I have more on this theory but its on my laptop that is now being repaired.

I believe SEARS replicated the Indian! 

Read the long article above (United States Investor - September 25, 1915), and what provoked George Hendee to reintroduce the bicycle. Also if you know anything about production, skews are usually made one or two years in advance because of tooling, production, marketing and advertising. For a 1916 launch i imagine that Hendee was in negotiations with Westfield prior to 1915?

Additionally, from the many articles I've read, SEARS had a cross-hair on their back...they were disliked by many bicycle manufacturers for stealing their designs and selling them for less!


----------



## fordsnake

Gary Mc said:


> I agree, been searching and nothing so far after 1901 until 1915 article introducing the 1916 models that you found. Still looking, hoping to find a nugget that says bicycle production being discontinued in 190_.  Trying to dig through 1901 docs now and 1902 next. I hear people talk about bikes from 1912-1915 but so far nothing to support there were any manufactured.  If anyone has proof of production these years I'd love to see it.





To fully understand the Indian strategy and their growth, one must fully understand the economic climate at the time. 
I believe Hendee knew that the proliferation of bicycle manufacturing was changing and that society was shifting their interest in transportation.  Motors were becoming more exciting and compelling! Many of the Bicycle Manufacturing at the turn of the century had jumped on the automotive manufacturing bandwagon; Pope Mfg Co., - Pope-Hartford, Pope-Robinson, Pope-Toledo, Pope-Tribune and Pope-Waverley; Pierce Cycle Company, Pierce –Arrow; Gormully & Jeffery – Rambler and Nash…and many more!
Additionally, there were two economic recession, 1903 and 1907.

The crash of 1903, the Dow Jones dropped 34.1 percent. The recession didn’t recovered until November 1904.
Then in 1907, there was another financial crisis that crippled the US. The New York Stock Exchange fell almost 50% from its peak the previous year. Panic occurred and extended across the nation as there were numerous runs on banks and trust companies. Many businesses entered bankruptcy. This crash lead to the creation of the Federal Reserve System.

And if that wasn’t enough? The United States participated in a global war; World War I (WWI) that began July 1914 and lasted until November 1918. 


Read how Hendee tries to put an optimistic spin on the enconomy below.


----------



## chitown

fordsnake said:


> To fully understand the Indian strategy and their growth, one must fully understand the economic climate at the time.




I'll post this clip from a 1908 congressional hearing about continuing to tariff foreign trade. Just to give some historical context from that year and who was manufacturing bicycles. More important than who is listed is who isn't listed: Hendee, Mead Cycle & Davis Sewing Machine are not listed. The document states that they represent 90% of the bicycles built in the US of A. So Hendee may have been building bicycles, just not that many. 







You are right about the motor cycle being the driving economic force for these manufacturers at this time. Bicycles were overproduced after 1900 to what the market demand was, opening up the door for companies like Sears and Mead to buy bicycles in bulk and sell cheap. The teens is when bicycle marketing tactics changed and companies started to build and market bicycles for children who couldn't ride the motorcycles yet. So they designed them to look like motorcycles with tanks, fenders and lights.


----------



## Gary Mc

*1926 Indian Bicycles Brochure Form No. E-1-26*

1926 Indian Bicycles Brochure
Form No. E-1-26
Indian Motocycle Co.
Springfield, Mass., U.S.A.


----------



## Gary Mc

*1896 Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co. "Silver King" ad Springfield, Mass.*

1896 Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co. "Silver King" ad Springfield, Mass.


----------



## chitown

Pope Mfg was making Motobikes as early as 1913!







Taken from this gem:


----------



## fordsnake

chitown said:


> Pope Mfg was making Motobikes as early as 1913!




Now that's a gem of a discovery! What we really need are the Indian catalogs between 1902-1912? Please share if you have one?


----------



## fordsnake

*Soliciting early Indian catalogs between 1902 -1912?*

I’m curious about the motor bike frame design when was it introduced? We know that in the year of 1908, Oscar Hedstrom presented celebrity racer Jake DeRosier with a unique Indian Motocycle. DeRosier went on to amass hundreds of victories as Indian’s factory racer with this bike.
Note the diamond frame design on these two 1908 Moto Cycles?








Now look at the frame design two years later…is the 1910 model the impetus for the Indian signature design?


----------



## chitown

*1909 Truss Loop Frame*

1908 Indian Ad:









1909 is when they went to the loop frame with double top bars (Truss Frame). They were just following Excelsior and other European manufacturers designs. The only thing "signature Indian" on the 1910 model is the tank design and leaf spring fork... which show up on other models besides Hendee built. That's a nice Racycle looking fork there too! Anyone know the story with that?


----------



## thehugheseum

in speaking with gurus of early indian its hinted that the camelback frames/diamond of 1909 were likely a way to get rid of old stock,the chain drive/belt drive argument was still on the table in 09..............there were pros and cons for both drives.........."roads" were so poop that belt seemed to be more reliable,the jerking on the drive belt/chain from the horrible conditions made cycling a challenge


----------



## cyclingday

This thread has been fabulous!
 This is the essence of what the Cabe is all about.
 A huge thanks to all of the contributors for your weath of information.


----------



## fordsnake

*I’m going out on the limb with a conjecture...*

*I’m sure what I'm about to say will ruffle a few feathers? But I believe the Hendee Indian Mfg Co., stopped making bicycles in 1902 and didn't reintroduced their bicycle until 1916!*
I encourage anyone who disputes this theory to please participate in this thread; share your knowledge and offer documented evidence; i.e., catalogs or brochures within this 13 year period.

How did I arrive at my speculation? Read the high lighted content below,
The United States Investor, September 25, 1915.




Here's an ad that mentions the return of the Indian bicycle; February 27, 1916




Here's an excerpt from an article featured in Motorcycle Illustrated January 26, 1911  vol. 6. no. 3 describes the new 1910 Indian factory.

_...The latest extension to the Indian factory in Springfield, Mass is now occupied and the new department are in full swing turning out the Hendee product.  As a result earlier deliveries and a greatly increased output are assured. The new section is 264 feet long and five stories high. The ground floor is devoted to plating and polishing department and the rough stock room. The tool room, find grinding department and gear cutting and inspection rooms are located on the second floor and the next floor is given up to sheet metal work and the building of Indian motors for areoplanes . The frame making department is on the fourth floor, while the top floor affords a well equipped repair department and huge room for finished stock. In the central section of the building, consisting of the ends of the two wings and the section connecting same, the lower floor is taken up by the shipping department. On the second floor is the main office of the company, extending across the building, and considered to be the handsomest office room in New England. The third story is occupied by the experimental laboratory and draughting room, while the fourth floor is a spacious enameling room.
*No mentioning of a bicycle department!!!*
_
Lastly featured in the 1916 Indian Bicycle Catalog, page 09 George M. Hendee mentions a discontinuing of bicycle manufacturing for 14 years!
_
…1897 saw the beginning of the expansion of a name that means more in the two-wheeled industry than any other today. The Hendee Manufacturing Company was formed and floor space taken in a building on Worthington Street. *Here the manufacture of Indian Bicycles started and went on until 1902, when the development of the motorcycle made their discontinuance necessary because Mr. Hendee felt it imperative that he give all his time and effort to the gasoline machine.

And now, after fourteen years, 1916 again brings back the Indian Bicycle.*_


----------



## chitown

*Motor Age clip*



fordsnake said:


> I’m sure what I'm about to say will ruffle a few feathers? But I believe the Hendee Indian Mfg Co., stopped making bicycles in 1902 and didn't reintroduced their bicycle until 1916!
> 
> I encourage anyone who disputes this theory to please participate in this thread; share your knowledge and offer documented evidence; i.e., catalogs or brochures within this 14 year period.




From 1904 Motor Age:


----------



## fordsnake

That's a great find...so we now know Indians bicycles were made up to 1904? Any other years prior to 1916?


----------



## chitown

*more info on Aurora*






"The Hendee Manufacturing Company of Springfield Mass builders of the Indian motorcycles tricars and delivery vans announces that hereafter the motors carbureters and various other parts which were heretofore built by the Aurora Automatic Machinery Company of Aurora ILL under patents controlled by Geo M Hendee will be manufactured at the Hendee plant. The principal reason for this step was that for several seasons the Springfield concern has not been able to get motors and other parts in sufficient quantities to even supply a part of their big business. Oscar Hedstrom will have the direction of the building department."


----------



## Gary Mc

*1916 Indian Bicycles Catalog*

I will not post this catalog as it is available in reprint reasonably to anyone from Howie Cohen at his Everything Bicycles site for $28.00 shipped.  I bought a reprint and it is an excellent reprint of the original. I did want to make everyone aware that it is available in reprint format.  It is available at:

http://www.proteanpaper.com//scart_...=norm&srkeyall=ALL&srkeywords=indian&srcateg=

As referenced by fordsnake this catalog clearly states Hendee quit making bicycles in 1902 and began again in 1916.  The question becomes is this accurate based on the 1904 article posted by chitown.  I also have a 1903 Indian Bicycles & Motor Bicycles catalog on the way to me.  We'll see if it actually has bicycles in it so over time hopefully we can solve the mystery of what was the true gap when Hendee Mfg. did not produce bicycles.  

I want to encourage others with Hendee Indian documentation particularly relating to bicycles from 1902 to 1915, please post it here for the benefit of all CABE'rs who are fanatics over the Indian brand.  This is a pertinent gap in the Hendee/Indian timeline.


----------



## Gary Mc

*The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - Jan. 8, 1903*

The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - Jan. 8, 1903 - page 428

*Hendee to continue to market both motor & motorless bicycles.*

So we know from this Hendee Mfg did market bicycles in 1903!!!!!!!


----------



## Gary Mc

*The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - Jan. 2, 1904*

The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review - Jan. 2, 1904 - cover page

*Hendee to continue to market both motor & motorless bicycles in 1904.*

So we know from this Hendee Mfg did market bicycles in 1904!!!!!!!


----------



## Gary Mc

*George M. Hendee in 1883*

From the December 18, 1902 edition of The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review, page 343.


----------



## Gary Mc

*The Four Greatest American Racing Men - 1902 Article*

From the December 18, 1902 edition of The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review, page 345.


----------



## bricycle

...a man and his Cycle....


----------



## chitown

Here is a clip from the *1913 Chicago Motorcycle Show* program:


----------



## fordsnake

It appears the gap is closing...I so wish I had my computer and its data to contributed to this (oh well, I'm told it'll be another week)


----------



## chitown

fordsnake said:


> It appears the gap is closing...




But still a pretty good sized gap with no mention of Hendee making bicycles after 1904. It's interesting that there were "reports" that they discontinued making bicycles. Could it be that they actually had stopped making bicycles but still had to sell their back stock? This was when the ABC trusts were crashing and the market was making more than the demand for pedaled machines. If the "reports" were true, it would be harder to sell last years stock as new so it was in their best interests to deny such reports.


----------



## hoofhearted

*INDIAN Thread ... Wow-Wee-Wow-Wow !!!*

ALL ... this entire thread is a wonderful work of research and reference.  Thanks to all who are 
making this possible .. Gary Mc .. Fordsnake .. Chitown  and anyone else who made a contribution.

When I have a little time .. I will acknowledge any other major contributor and indicate by name.

(I can re-enter this particular memo thru the "edit" ap)

MANY, MANY THANKS TO ALL !!!!!                    ...........................  patric


----------



## Gary Mc

*1904-05 Oscar Hedstrom "Dean Of Motorcycling" Post Card*

1904-05 Oscar Hedstrom "Dean Of Motorcycling" Post Card

Indian memorabilia always amazes me with the prices they bring.  If an Indian item comes up you better have a fat wallet waiting if you plan to get it.  This postcard sold on ebay for $227 last night.  I was thinking $125 would buy it, learning with Indian items I need to double what I think & I might be close not that I would have bid $250 on this item but it is pretty cool.  It was damaged by the way, a 1/4 inch strip had been cut off the left side and it still brought $227.


----------



## fordsnake

chitown said:


> But still a pretty good sized gap with no mention of Hendee making bicycles after 1904. It's interesting that there were "reports" that they discontinued making bicycles. Could it be that they actually had stopped making bicycles but still had to sell their back stock? This was when the ABC trusts were crashing and the market was making more than the demand for pedaled machines. If the "reports" were true, it would be harder to sell last years stock as new so it was in their best interests to deny such reports.




Thats what I'm thinking...Hendee was bigger then life, he always swung to hit a home run. I'm guessing he proliferated his shop with a high volume of bike inventory. After all the first years of the Indian "Camelback" moto cycle was built on a bicycle diamond frame http://www.backfirealley.com/images/indian-single-1904.jpg...it wasn't until 1906 that the company broke away from tradition and introduced its first V-twin factory racer http://www.backfirealley.com/images/1907-Indian-Twin.jpg 1907 was the first production of the v-twin.


----------



## Gary Mc

*1950's Indian Lightweight Bicycles Brochure (Early 1950's)*

*Early 1950's Indian Lightweight Bicycles Brochure*
The Indian Company - Springfield, Mass.

These bikes were manufactured by Phillips Cycles Limited of England.  Included 2 models, the Indian Scout & the Indian Princess.  While not early nor American made, they are a part of Indian's heritage and as such will be covered in this thread.


----------



## bricycle

You are so diplomatic!
Is this the same Indian (heritage)?


----------



## Gary Mc

bricycle said:


> You are so diplomatic!
> Is this the same Indian (heritage)?




Yes, but long story short, the Indian heritage was pretty sad by this time, even Indian motorcycles were nothing more than rebadged English "Royal Enfields".


----------



## bricycle

when was the last year of the "real Indian" motorcycles?


----------



## Gary Mc

bricycle said:


> when was the last year of the "real Indian" motorcycles?




1953 I believe but 1949 started the slide or some would say in 1945 when Ralph Rogers bought the company from Dupont.


----------



## fordsnake

Here's a great video on Hendee and his accomplishments. click on the video on the left side. http://www.usbhof.org/inductee-by-year/125-george-mallory-hendee


----------



## fordsnake

I’ve unearthed more interesting information that supports known and unknown facts about George Mallory Hendee and his companies. My recent findings: In 1894, George began assembling safety bicycles under the name of *Geo.M.Hendee Bicycles*...The Silver King of Safety.









*New News!* George had a smorgasbord approach to bike building! He offered a menu of bike parts to choose from for the Silver King and Silver Queen; thereby building a custom bicycle?


 
(ad transcribed);Practically, every machine made to order.
Prices,   $50, $85, $90    Weight 22 to 30 lbs.
Any style tires.   Any style rims.   Any style saddle.   Any style pedals.  Any style gearing.
Guaranteed for one year.   Catalogue
GEO. M. HENDEE, 478 Main St.,  Springfield, Mass.


----------



## fordsnake

Surprisingly, George had a few inventions, in 1890 he invents an Anti Vibration Springer. In 1896 he attends a bicycle trade show with a novelty rear fork…soon after this tubing design becomes the standard in the industry! 
To expand his line of bicycles, Hendee ventured into a partnership in 1895 with Edward Nelson...the company was renamed *Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co*. They continued to make the Silver King, and Silver Queen bicycles.













………………………………………………………………………………………………







This partnership between Hendee and Nelson was short lived. It’s interesting that George allowed Hendee & Nelson company to go bankrupt? (After all he was a minor partner in the Springfield Coliseum, he could’ve leveraged his interest? He became a half partner of the track in 1900). 

Hendee immediately purchased the entire H&N inventory at auction in 1898 and renamed the company Hendee Mfg. Co.

*LIQUIDATION, EVERYTHING MUST GO IN 1898! *

























(ad transcribed) After Saturday there will be no more offered at this ridiculously low price. When you consider that these are genuine Silver Kings build by the Geo. Hendee Mfg. Co., of Springfield, Mass., and are guaranteed through built of Pope Co. 50 percent carbon seamless tubing and Springfield drop forging. Fifteen different styles of saddles, pedals, tires, etc., to select from, no wonder the dealer’s say it is the biggest bargain ever offered. _Notice the tubing he's using...the start of an early relationship?_


----------



## fordsnake

Here are two incredible articles written with authority about the Indian origins. What make’s these articles archival worthy are they were written when both Hendee and Hedstrom were the captains of the Indian maiden voyage. If the historical content had been miswritten I’m sure they would’ve rebut it’s publishing. 

*THIS IS BIG NEWS! *
The origin of the name “Indian” was a serendipitous action that changed a man and an industry! I had always read that the Hendee & Nelson bicycle lineup existed of three models; Silver King, Silver Queen and the American Indian, and the word American was later dropped for International acceptance? *Not so! *

Even more enlightening is how the name Indian came to its fruition?  _Excuse my doctoring the content in photoshop...but each article had  multiple columns.
_





The article below speaks to where Hendee met Hedstrom…but more importantly it references the year November 1898 that George incorporated Hendee Manufacturing Company under the Massachusetts laws.


----------



## sam

Some of the british history of Indian is at:
http://www.icenicam.ukfsn.org/download/201307cammag.pdf


----------



## fordsnake

*One minute things are looking great!
*















*This is what happens when you take your eye off the market trends!
*


----------



## dave the wave

*so when............*

did the indian script badge end? and the hendee badge start? the indian motocycle badge started i presume after 1923.


----------



## Gary Mc

dave the wave said:


> did the indian script badge end? and the hendee badge start? the indian motocycle badge started i presume after 1923.




Dave, My 1916 catalog has the script badge shown and my 1917 catalog has the Hendee badge with the Indian head logo.


----------



## dave the wave

got it. 1917-1923 thank you.


----------



## fordsnake

This should help...the years correspond to corporate changing their name. Hendee started the Hendee Mfg. Co. late in 1898, tooling had to begin in 1899? He retired from the company in 1916 before leaving he stewarded the relationship with Westfield in 1915 to make the Indian (the 1916 model was the end of the cutout script) The board of directors struggled with the company and renamed the company in late Oct 1923...again retooling would have taken some time for introduction. I have no idea when the Indian badge was last used?


----------



## bike

*whata bout*

the dot over the second i


----------



## fordsnake

bike said:


> the dot over the second i




Are you referencing the first badge (the cut-out)? I don't think there was a dot.


----------



## bike

*yes*



fordsnake said:


> Are you referencing the first badge (the cut-out)?




indeeedyyy


----------



## Gary Mc

A 4th head badge style showed up on ebay this year & appears to be an early one to my eye.  It was quickly snapped up Buy It Now for a hefty sum.


----------



## bike

*well*



Gary Mc said:


> A 4th head badge style showed up on ebay this year & appears to be an early one to my eye.  It was quickly snapped up Buy It Now for a *BARGAIN*.




..................[my change]


----------



## Gary Mc

bike said:


> ..................[my change]




bike, you are right, was a bargain even at the price it went for.  Wish I had seen it first.


----------



## fordsnake

Gary Mc said:


> Wish I had seen it first.




Don't we all wish we had seen it first...my mouth dropped when I saw it… it’s fantastic! 

I'm speculating it’s a one-of-kind, a one-off prototype from a badge manufacturer trying to win the business to make the Indian badges when the Hendee & Nelson Mfg.Co., partnership went defunct? 

We all know ornate filigree head badges were prevalent and popular in the late 1800’s. It's possible, to produce something so beautiful would have been an expensive proposition for a start up company? The evidence of the early Indian cut-out badge aligns more with a start up company. It’s crude, and primitive; but ideal for in-house manufacturing (stamping).

If this beautiful badge was produced, the only logical time to pursue and solicit vendors to indulge Hendee with an Indian icon would have been after the cut-out badge?  

The Indian on this beautiful badge is very similar to the Indian head pennies made between 1859 and 1909. It’s a caricature...not a real depiction! It mimics the wooden cigar Indian statues that stood stiff outside many of the tobacco or drug stores around this time period? Beautifully rendered and gentle in their stature. 

It’s hard to imagine Hendee would’ve opted for an oversimplification portrait of an Indian when he was so enamored with the free spirit of the real Native Americans?
I read somewhere that Frank Rinehart images inspired the Hendee Indian head motif? James Fraser's Indian head nickel was first produced in 1913 (four years before Hendee’s badge, and there are very strong similarities between the two portraits).

Lastly, the Indian chief contradicts Hendee's persona? Yes, Hendee exuded leadership and confidence, but more significant, he exuded raw strength and competitiveness; the very essence that embodied the young Indian braves –Hendee wanted a tribe of fighting warriors, not a band of passive Chiefs.

As I mentioned earlier, I believe this badge was produced as a vendor's example badge…I doubt it was ever mass-produced and it may be the only one in existence? But who knows...stranger things have popped up?


----------



## dave the wave

hey gary,what year did the  fenders show in your catalogs when they went to sided fenders rather than the flat type? i realize flat type were first used.


----------



## dave the wave

*anybody want to concour on this quote?*

Posted - 09/28/2008 :  23:13:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dick - I have many Indian bicycles, from 1901/02 thru 1948, so here is what I have found out. I believe early Indian bicycles were made at the Indian plant, as Hendee made bicycles before starting the Indian name. If I remember correctly, they were called Silver King and Silver Queen. Plus the early Indian bicycles have the same head badge (open Indian script-Hendee Manufacturing Co.) as the "camel-back" Indian motorcycles 1901-1905. I have a copy of a 1902 Indian bicycle catalog and most of the models were only available in black, with the exception of the model called "Red Indian". That model was available in black, vermillion or royal blue. I have not seen any paperwork on Indian bicycles after 1904/05 until 1915. At this time I believe that the Indian bicycles were made by Davis for Indian from 1915-1921. The '15-'16 models retained the open script badge, and in 1917 they went to a solid head badge with the Indian head on it. The '15-'21 models were available in red only with gold stripping, with the exception of the ladies model that was available in black or red. I believe that Davis/Dayton went out of business in '21/22 and the Indian bicycles were then produced by Columbia. The later 20's models were called "Sagamore" and they did make a model in blue. The teens Indian's head badge was slight narrower and longer than those of the 20's. I also have a German Indian (made in '36/'37 by a German bicycle company under license from Indian. Different head badge, frame and sprocket. I also have a ladies Huffman Indian from 1948. Again, another different head badge. I have a Huffman catalog showing this bicycle. Troxel saddles were used from 1901-1920's. The German bicycle has a unique saddle and the Huffman also.
I would be glad to send you copies of the Indian brochures I have. Email me at mgracer@ync.net. Do you have any Indian bicycles? Sharon


----------



## Gary Mc

dave the wave said:


> Posted - 09/28/2008 :  23:13:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
> Dick - I have many Indian bicycles, from 1901/02 thru 1948, so here is what I have found out. I believe early Indian bicycles were made at the Indian plant, as Hendee made bicycles before starting the Indian name. If I remember correctly, they were called Silver King and Silver Queen. Plus the early Indian bicycles have the same head badge (open Indian script-Hendee Manufacturing Co.) as the "camel-back" Indian motorcycles 1901-1905. I have a copy of a 1902 Indian bicycle catalog and most of the models were only available in black, with the exception of the model called "Red Indian". That model was available in black, vermillion or royal blue. I have not seen any paperwork on Indian bicycles after 1904/05 until 1915. At this time I believe that the Indian bicycles were made by Davis for Indian from 1915-1921. The '15-'16 models retained the open script badge, and in 1917 they went to a solid head badge with the Indian head on it. The '15-'21 models were available in red only with gold stripping, with the exception of the ladies model that was available in black or red. I believe that Davis/Dayton went out of business in '21/22 and the Indian bicycles were then produced by Columbia. The later 20's models were called "Sagamore" and they did make a model in blue. The teens Indian's head badge was slight narrower and longer than those of the 20's. I also have a German Indian (made in '36/'37 by a German bicycle company under license from Indian. Different head badge, frame and sprocket. I also have a ladies Huffman Indian from 1948. Again, another different head badge. I have a Huffman catalog showing this bicycle. Troxel saddles were used from 1901-1920's. The German bicycle has a unique saddle and the Huffman also.
> I would be glad to send you copies of the Indian brochures I have. Email me at mgracer@ync.net. Do you have any Indian bicycles? Sharon




Dave,  I'll go thru my catalogs tonight & confirm or say wrong.  I only have I believe catalogs for 1902, 1916, 1917, 1924, 1926, 1928.  Definitely wrong on Davis making them, even the early ones share no Davis characteristics but do have Westfield characteristics and Carlton already has documentation Westfield got the 1915 contract to make them when Indian again started selling bicycles with the 1916 models. Carlton also did some comparison pics of Indians & Westfields that to me leave little doubt who the manufacturer was.  I have a copy of the 1902 catalog which I believe was the last catalog produced prior to 1916.  Haven't forgot your fender question either.


----------



## dave the wave

so they were Westfield built.that clears up the confusion.I just bought another one on monday.i got that one from the original owner who got it from a cousin 80yrs ago.i put flat type fenders on the other one thinking it might be correct.but i think they all had regular fenders.


----------



## Gary Mc

*Dave the Wave question on flat fenders*



dave the wave said:


> so they were Westfield built.that clears up the confusion.I just bought another one on monday.i got that one from the original owner who got it from a cousin 80yrs ago.i put flat type fenders on the other one thinking it might be correct.but i think they all had regular fenders.






dave the wave said:


> hey gary,what year did the  fenders show in your catalogs when they went to sided fenders rather than the flat type? i realize flat type were first used.




Yep, they were Westfield built.  1916-1917 Motobikes definitely did NOT have flat fenders per the catalog.  I suspect from 1916 forward none had flat fenders with one exception.  Late 1918, the government mandated flat fenders during WWI for a very brief period for all bicycle manufacturers. If I remember correctly this only impacted about one to two months of manufacturing time so likely not many if any out there with flat fenders.

Now for clarification, notice I said 1916-1917 Motobikes (includes equipped & not equipped), all other models with fenders EXCEPT the Motobikes DID HAVE flat fenders in 1916-1917 per the catalogs.

So, there's a couple of items cleared up.  I'll do the remainder later tonight.


----------



## Gary Mc

dave the wave said:


> so they were Westfield built.that clears up the confusion.I just bought another one on monday.i got that one from the original owner who got it from a cousin 80yrs ago.i put flat type fenders on the other one thinking it might be correct.but i think they all had regular fenders.




Very Very cool purchase Dave!!!!!!!!  Neat to have the provenance on the bike as well.  Do you know the year?


----------



## bricycle

dave the wave said:


> so they were Westfield built.that clears up the confusion.I just bought another one on monday.i got that one from the original owner who got it from a cousin 80yrs ago.i put flat type fenders on the other one thinking it might be correct.but i think they all had regular fenders.




That you Dave?


----------



## dave the wave

that is me.surfer,rockstar look wannabe.the bike has the hendee badge so it is 1917-23.


----------



## bricycle

dave the wave said:


> that is me.surfer,rockstar look wannabe.the bike has the hendee badge so it is 1917-23.




Looks like a great collection.


----------



## dfa242

dave the wave said:


> so they were Westfield built.that clears up the confusion.I just bought another one on monday.i got that one from the original owner who got it from a cousin 80yrs ago.i put flat type fenders on the other one thinking it might be correct.but i think they all had regular fenders.




So cool when you can get pics with original owners - good for you, man!


----------



## willswares1220

Hey Dave,

That's the one off the farm out of Grafton, Wi. My neck of the woods.I'm just north of there in Port washington.
Pictured is one of the daughters and her mother in her 80's. 
I knew about it and talked to the sister pictured, but didn't want to "break the bank" to get it, so I passed.
That is a nice find and you have a nice collection going. 
I do Dig your look man!


----------



## dave the wave

the local paper did a story on the bike too.  http://ozaukeepress.com/component/content/article/49-feature-1/4471-a-farmhouse-full-of-memories


----------



## dave the wave

*Minnesota Antique & Classic Bicycle Club Facebook Page*

Lynn Hennings
Hello, everyone! I confess, I have not been a bike gal...until recently. A local antique dealer suggested I contact a bike club for what I need. Since then I have been excited to check out this page to see what's going on!!
I need help with something for my mother in WI. She has a pre 1925 Indian which was her brother's. I offered to help her with an fair value of it. Are any of you willing to help me with that? I have two photos I will post if anyone is willing. Thanks in advance. PS. I really enjoy all the projects you've been working on!
Like · · Unfollow Post · Share · August 25 at 7:47pm

    Seen by 92
    2 people like this.
    Randy Ivers I would imagine that you will receive lots of help! I am new to the hobby so I really have no clue.
    August 25 at 7:53pm via mobile · Like
    Randy Ivers Should be a pretty sought after bike. You should post the pics, many would love to see.
    August 25 at 7:54pm via mobile · Like · 1
    Lynn Hennings Thanks so much! I'll try...
    August 25 at 7:55pm via mobile · Like · 2
    Tera Gronos Weidendorf Would be interested in seeing pics
    August 25 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
    Nick Baxter I'd love to see pictures of it. I would offer a very fair price to buy it if it comes up for sale
    August 25 at 8:36pm via mobile · Like · 1
    Adam Andsons Welcome to our page. Please post plenty of pictures and I'm sure those of us that can help will and those that can't will still love to see the pictures.
    August 25 at 8:58pm via mobile · Like · 2
    Lynn Hennings I tried sharing them, but maybe it didn't work. You can go to my personal page to see them.
    August 25 at 9:00pm via mobile · Like
    Randy Ivers It worked Lynn.
    August 25 at 9:00pm · Like
    Randy Ivers I can sse them.
    August 25 at 9:01pm · Like
    Lynn Hennings Yay! it's cute, isn't it
    August 25 at 9:02pm via mobile · Like
    Randy Ivers More like a cool old stud if you don't mind me saying! A true survivor. Awesome.
    August 25 at 9:03pm · Like · 1
    Randy Ivers what about the other bike in the pic with your mom? Gone?
    August 25 at 9:10pm · Like
    Lynn Hennings That's the same one. I need more info on it. Like what's a fair price?
    August 25 at 9:13pm via mobile · Like
    Randy Ivers oh - it looked green in the pic with your mom - sorry.
    August 25 at 9:15pm · Like
    Lynn Hennings What, red is bad? The bike is in WI. I live in MN. Morels, eh?
    August 25 at 9:16pm via mobile · Like
    Randy Ivers I have to defer to the experts - my best guess would be just that. You should have lots of folks chime in - that is a relic. Do you know how to check your messages?
    August 25 at 9:16pm · Like
    Randy Ivers bigtime morel hunter. no red is not bad.
    August 25 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
    Randy Ivers my favorite passion and pastime - only a month long season in Mo. I hear really amazing stories about morel hunting in both Mn and Wisc
    August 25 at 9:18pm · Like
    Randy Ivers bicycles is a really close second!
    August 25 at 9:19pm · Like
    Dave Nash I am going with gary on this that the bike is circa 1920.i have one with the same fork,lynn i would put a value on your bike at around $2000 its a great bike with alot of family history.bring it to the club's bicycle swap meet next year in june and i will give that much for it.
    August 26 at 11:30am · Like
    Dave Nash this is a pic of the fork that is on my bike.its the same as yours.and i paid $1000 for this bike.
    Dave Nash's photo.
    August 26 at 11:42am · Like
    Dave Nash and this is my indian.circa 1920.
    Dave Nash's photo.
    August 26 at 11:46am · Like
    Dave Nash
    Write a comment...


----------



## dave the wave

nobody would give her a value of the bicycle.so i stepped up to the plate.


----------



## willswares1220

Hey Dave,
She called me with a price of $2000.00 that was offered and I told her that was a fair offer for both her and the buyer and should take it.
That's good you stepped up to the plate and now have a nice original bike that fits in your collection. 
I collect the the earlier stuff ( pre-1900 )


----------



## Gary Mc

*For dave the wave from Post #84 - Here's what I know*

*Dave,  Here's what I can say is correct or incorrect.  Hope this helps.*


Dick - I have many Indian bicycles, from 1901/02 thru 1948, so here is what I have found out. 

I believe early Indian bicycles were made at the Indian plant, as Hendee made bicycles before starting the Indian name. If I remember correctly, they were called Silver King and Silver Queen. 

*CORRECT: In 1896, Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company at 478 Main Street in Springfield Massachusetts were building safety bicycles under the names of Silver King for men and Silver Queen for women.  In 1898, Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company went bankrupt and Hendee purchased the entire inventory at auction and set up shop on Worthington Street in Springfield Massachusetts.  Somewhere between 1898 & 1901 Hendee began using the Indian name. 
*

Plus the early Indian bicycles have the same head badge (open Indian script-Hendee Manufacturing Co.) as the "camel-back" Indian motorcycles 1901-1905. 

*CORRECT for 1901-1904 *bicycles but there may have been an earlier Indian badge, see post #79

I have a copy of a 1902 Indian bicycle catalog and most of the models were only available in black, with the exception of the model called "Red Indian". That model was available in black, vermillion or royal blue. I have not seen any paperwork on Indian bicycles after 1904/05 until 1915. 

*CORRECT:* Early Indians before 1915 - The last catalog I have been able to find is 1902.  The person I bought it from is incorrectly selling it as a 1903 catalog reprint but it clearly states 1902 on page 2.  Hendee Manufacturing Co. reported to the The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review in the Jan. 2, 1904 edition they would continue pedal propelled Indian bicycles in 1904. (See post #51 in this thread) This is the last reference of Indian bicycles I have found prior to their return in 1915.  These were manufactured by Hendee. 

On the 1902 Catalog:
They manufactured 5 bikes & 1 motocycle, The bikes:

Indian No. 1 - enameled in black with nickeled bright parts
Indian No. 2 - enameled in black with nickeled bright parts
Red Indian - enameled in black, vermillion, or royal blue with nickeled bright parts (top of line bike)
Ladies Indian No. 1 - enameled in black with nickeled bright parts
Ladies Indian No. 2 - enameled in black with nickeled bright parts
NOTE: these bikes had the Hendee split crank hanger known as the Indian hanger in the catalog


At this time I believe that the Indian bicycles were made by Davis for Indian from 1915-1921. 

*INCORRECT:*  In 1915, return of Indian Bicycles announced for 1916 model year
Westfield to build new line-up of Hendee Mfg. Co. Indian Bicycles to add to their Motorcycle business: September 25, 1915, United States Investor periodical reports that Hendee Manufacturing Company has entered into arrangement with the Pope Plant in Westfield, Mass. to build bicycles to add to their motorcycle line-up and calls the addition of bicycles, "the new business is an experiment however, until it proves it's worth". Posts # 25 & 26

The '15-'16 models retained the open script badge, 

*CORRECT except there was no 1915 Model, any bike sold in 1915 would have been considered a 1916 model year bike*

and in 1917 they went to a solid head badge with the Indian head on it. 

*CORRECT per my 1917 catalog*

The '15-'21 models were available in red only with gold stripping, with the exception of the ladies model that was available in black or red. 

*1916 - CORRECT; 1917 Indian Motorcycle Catalog I have shows the bikes as well but no details.  I do not have the 1918 to 1921 catalogs*

I believe that Davis/Dayton went out of business in '21/22 and the Indian bicycles were then produced by Columbia. 

*INCORRECT: All were produced by Westfield in my opinion until someone provides proof otherwise based on:*  In 1915, return of Indian Bicycles announced for 1916 model year
Westfield to build new line-up of Hendee Mfg. Co. Indian Bicycles to add to their Motorcycle business: September 25, 1915, United States Investor periodical reports that Hendee Manufacturing Company has entered into arrangement with the Pope Plant in Westfield, Mass. to build bicycles to add to their motorcycle line-up and calls the addition of bicycles, "the new business is an experiment however, until it proves it's worth". Posts # 25 & 26

The later 20's models were called "Sagamore" and they did make a model in blue. 

*INCORRECT:* The Sagamore Lineup of bikes appeared after the 1926 catalog, they are not in it. In my 1928 catalog Indian had 2 complete lineups of bicycles, regular Indian bicycles only in Indian Red and a completely separate lineup of bikes called Sagamore only in Indian Blue.  So not all Indians were Sagamores in the late 1920's.  Also in 1928, the regular lineup in Indian Red has an equipped & non-equipped motobike however the Sagamore Motobike in Indian Blue only came non-equipped.

The teens Indian's head badge was slight narrower and longer than those of the 20's. I also have a German Indian (made in '36/'37 by a German bicycle company under license from Indian. Different head badge, frame and sprocket. I also have a ladies Huffman Indian from 1948. Again, another different head badge. I have a Huffman catalog showing this bicycle. Troxel saddles were used from 1901-1920's. The German bicycle has a unique saddle and the Huffman also.
I would be glad to send you copies of the Indian brochures I have. Email me at mgracer@ync.net. Do you have any Indian bicycles? Sharon


----------



## dave the wave

thank you for the info gary.


----------



## Gary Mc

dave the wave said:


> thank you for the info gary.




You are welcome Dave.  Thank You for sharing that SWEET motorbike and the back story on it.  Wish we could get more people to post their Indian bikes in this thread.


----------



## fordsnake

I’ve spent the past year combing through multiple newspaper articles searching for evidence and I've found much on George M. Hendee that has never been shared; did you know Hendee patented one of the first springer front ends for the bicycle? After officially announcing he had retired from racing in 1887, reluctantly giving it up. Yet he continued to race even after losing his svelte youthful physique. He was banned as an amateur for product endorsements and monetary prizes, but in time reinstated.  He later became the President of the organization that banned him. As a young man he learned his craft as a retailer in New York City, representing the King Scorcher and the Queen Scorcher, both made in England. These bikes were later the templates of Hendee's Silver King and Silver Queen safeties.  Before he launched his first company, he was offered the position as the President of a well-known bicycle manufacturer. He was the President of an insurance company. And before he started his motorcycle venture, he was a part owner of the Springfield Coliseum, a race-track velodrome. He was certainly a force to be reckoned with…an amazing man with an unbridled vision.          

Below is an accurate account of George Mallory Hendee's companies after his racing career. 

*
Geo. M. Hendee*

*March 10, 1893 *– George M. Hendee goes into business for himself and establishes an emporium on Main Street in Springfield Massachusetts, selling the Rudge, Overlands and the Waverly safety bicycles and assorted bicycle sundries. 
*April 3, 1894 *–   Hendee begins building safety bicycles under the names of Silver King and Silver Queen on Main Street in Springfield Massachusetts. 

*
Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company*

*Nov 23, 1895 *–Hendee sells half of his company to Edward A. Nelson (another bicycle racer) to form the Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company, continuing to build the Silver King and Silver Queen. The factory was located at 41-43 Taylor Street. The office at 478 Main Street in Springfield Mass. 
*Feb 25, 1897 *– Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co., the office at 478 Main St. Springfield, Mass., is hereafter known as E.A. Nelson & Co. Hendee devotes time to Taylor Street factory.
*Sept 30. 1897*– Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co., files for bankruptcy.

*
Hendee Manufacturing Company*

*Jan 20, 1898 *–  Hendee purchases the entire inventory at auction, continuing to build the Silver King and Silver Queen. 
*Jan 21,1898 -* Hendee renames the company Hendee Mfg. Co., and manufacturers the  Silver King,  Silver Queen and American Indian. 
*April 1, 1898* –   Hendee files to trade mark the word “Silver King”.
*April 25, 1898* –   Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company is finally dissolved, both men are discharged as insolvent debtors.
*March 16, 1899*- Hendee Mfg., Co., manufacturers the American Indian bicycle, colors; Black, Maroon and Green. Later the word American was dropped.  
*March 8, 1900* – Hendee Mfg., Co., manufacturers the Indian and Red Indian bicycles.

*July 17, 1902* –  The word “Indian,”is filed for trade mark, first recorded and used Jan. 1, 1898.


----------



## fordsnake

Gary Mc said:


> *CORRECT: In 1896, Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company at 478 Main Street in Springfield Massachusetts were building safety bicycles under the names of Silver King for men and Silver Queen for women.  In 1898, Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company went bankrupt and Hendee purchased the entire inventory at auction and set up shop on Worthington Street in Springfield Massachusetts.  Somewhere between 1898 & 1901 Hendee began using the Indian name.
> *





Gary there are a few things that should be noted with your statement above:
• Hendee & Nelson Manufacturing Company did not build bikes at 478 Main Street, that was their office. The factory was on Taylor St.
• Hendee & Nelson Co., was dissolved April 1898, but a petition for bankruptcy was filed Aug. 1897.
• Jan 1,1898 the name "American Indian" was first used under the Hendee Mfg., Co. The word "American" was dropped in 1899.


----------



## serg

*Indian*






Cool picture


----------



## chitown

*1919 Indians*

November 1918 announcement (just prior to armistice) for the 1919 Indian line mentions the War Industries Board restrictions on models offered and how they will "clean up stock".


----------



## bike

*Great as usual*

I have seen the headlight listed as BLACK finish for 18 and 19 now...


----------



## fordsnake

*Not all Indians were red...*

Some were painted black, green and blue! Also not all frames were adorned with gold pinstripes, some were painted with white darts and some with decal darts as seen below.


----------



## Larmo63

That Indian at Copake is going to draw a lot of attention........!


----------



## chughes1

*Indian Help*



Gary Mc said:


> Starting to dig into the history of George M. Hendee starting with Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co. and moving through to Hendee Mfg. Co. and the Indian Motocycle Co.  This thread will run with data from the 1890's through the 1950's but as most of the research will be pre-1933, I felt it best to post it here.  I will also add "Notes & Reference" placeholders in separate posts up front for each era.  Obviously with bicycles & motorcycles were so closely linked in the early 1900's, there will also be references to their very early motorcycles I find that may be appropriate here as well.
> 
> I encourage anyone with additional information on these great bicycles to post it here as well.  There is a lot of mystery & intrigue to this company and always the questions of who actually manufactured Indian motobikes.  Post your bikes, ads, catalogs, articles whatever you feel appropriate here to the subject matter at hand and maybe in the end we'll all have the answers we seek on these great marques of bicycling history.
> 
> *NOTE: This will be a long term project for me so I'll post what I can when I can get to it.  Work & Family Life crazy right now but plan to work on this little project as time allows.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *George M. Hendee (1866 – 1943)*
> 
> *Photos:* 1883, Post 52; Posts 15, 53
> *Articles:*Posts 13, 15, 55
> 
> *Oscar Hedstrom (1871-1960)*
> 
> *Photos:* Posts 15, 59
> *Articles:* Posts 15, 28, 55




Hi Gary, I'm hoping you can help me, I'm looking for info / pictures of an early Indian track bike. I've been offered one . The one I've  been offered has been repainted and has a lot of mis matched parts. I need to see what an original frame looked like. If you can help. I'd appreciate it. Chuck


----------



## ace

Does anyone have a pic of the optional ($1) rear luggage carrier mentioned in the catalog?


----------



## sm2501

fordsnake said:


> Don't we all wish we had seen it first...my mouth dropped when I saw it… it’s fantastic!
> 
> I'm speculating it’s a one-of-kind, a one-off prototype from a badge manufacturer trying to win the business to make the Indian badges when the Hendee & Nelson Mfg.Co., partnership went defunct?
> 
> We all know ornate filigree head badges were prevalent and popular in the late 1800’s. It's possible, to produce something so beautiful would have been an expensive proposition for a start up company? The evidence of the early Indian cut-out badge aligns more with a start up company. It’s crude, and primitive; but ideal for in-house manufacturing (stamping).
> 
> If this beautiful badge was produced, the only logical time to pursue and solicit vendors to indulge Hendee with an Indian icon would have been after the cut-out badge?
> 
> The Indian on this beautiful badge is very similar to the Indian head pennies made between 1859 and 1909. It’s a caricature...not a real depiction! It mimics the wooden cigar Indian statues that stood stiff outside many of the tobacco or drug stores around this time period? Beautifully rendered and gentle in their stature.
> 
> It’s hard to imagine Hendee would’ve opted for an oversimplification portrait of an Indian when he was so enamored with the free spirit of the real Native Americans?
> I read somewhere that Frank Rinehart images inspired the Hendee Indian head motif? James Fraser's Indian head nickel was first produced in 1913 (four years before Hendee’s badge, and there are very strong similarities between the two portraits).
> 
> Lastly, the Indian chief contradicts Hendee's persona? Yes, Hendee exuded leadership and confidence, but more significant, he exuded raw strength and competitiveness; the very essence that embodied the young Indian braves –Hendee wanted a tribe of fighting warriors, not a band of passive Chiefs.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I believe this badge was produced as a vendor's example badge…I doubt it was ever mass-produced and it may be the only one in existence? But who knows...stranger things have popped up?




There 2 of these badges in existence that have been found. Would love to see if it ever was actually on a bike!


----------



## sm2501

fordsnake said:


> Don't we all wish we had seen it first...my mouth dropped when I saw it… it’s fantastic!
> 
> I'm speculating it’s a one-of-kind, a one-off prototype from a badge manufacturer trying to win the business to make the Indian badges when the Hendee & Nelson Mfg.Co., partnership went defunct?
> 
> We all know ornate filigree head badges were prevalent and popular in the late 1800’s. It's possible, to produce something so beautiful would have been an expensive proposition for a start up company? The evidence of the early Indian cut-out badge aligns more with a start up company. It’s crude, and primitive; but ideal for in-house manufacturing (stamping).
> 
> If this beautiful badge was produced, the only logical time to pursue and solicit vendors to indulge Hendee with an Indian icon would have been after the cut-out badge?
> 
> The Indian on this beautiful badge is very similar to the Indian head pennies made between 1859 and 1909. It’s a caricature...not a real depiction! It mimics the wooden cigar Indian statues that stood stiff outside many of the tobacco or drug stores around this time period? Beautifully rendered and gentle in their stature.
> 
> It’s hard to imagine Hendee would’ve opted for an oversimplification portrait of an Indian when he was so enamored with the free spirit of the real Native Americans?
> I read somewhere that Frank Rinehart images inspired the Hendee Indian head motif? James Fraser's Indian head nickel was first produced in 1913 (four years before Hendee’s badge, and there are very strong similarities between the two portraits).
> 
> Lastly, the Indian chief contradicts Hendee's persona? Yes, Hendee exuded leadership and confidence, but more significant, he exuded raw strength and competitiveness; the very essence that embodied the young Indian braves –Hendee wanted a tribe of fighting warriors, not a band of passive Chiefs.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I believe this badge was produced as a vendor's example badge…I doubt it was ever mass-produced and it may be the only one in existence? But who knows...stranger things have popped up?




There are 2 of these badges in existence that have been found. Would love to see one on a bike!


----------



## thehugheseum

wow,just reread some of this stuff.......so i have an 08 racer and its the only mag bike i am aware of in existence this early.....the real big center gear is obviously different

ok so my motor is also bigger than my 09 in both cylinder,head and case width......and it has a dual lobe cam which is not seen on any other 08 or diamond frame bike.....this is not a hack job but either a prototype or a special racer

this picture of fred huyck? with an 08 racer.........with a mag!.......this could actually be my bike

if you research this pre 10 era you will see almost nothing but battery ignition racers,this pic is the only one i have seen this early depicting a racer with a mag......not only that but what looks like an oversized cylinder,head and case.......


----------



## rustyspoke66

Fantastic bike Adam. When are you going to take it outside for some pictures?


----------



## thehugheseum

thanks jeff.......i owe you......im waiting on a few more parts but yes these pics are horrible


----------



## bike

thehugheseum said:


> ...
> 
> this picture of fred huyck? with an 08 racer.........with a mag!.......this could actually be my bike.......
> 
> View attachment 151657View attachment 151658View attachment 151659View attachment 151660
> 
> View attachment 151661




Your bike has spring fork vs fixed in pic?


----------



## thehugheseum

Yeah, they used the rigid forks on most racers this early and I just got a rigid fork,I plan on using the springer fork on my 09 project


----------



## Freqman1

This bike recently listed on Ebay has generated some interest and questions so maybe it is time to revisit this thread and see if we can fill in some holes. The bike has the later flared front fender but the Hendee badge so the bike is likely 20-24? The company changed its name from Hendee to Indian 23 Oct, 1923. As discussed earlier in this thread there is the possibility that there was a lag in the '23-4 model year in getting the badge re-tooled and changed. The first letter of the serial is indistinct but is possible a weakly stamped "B" which would line up with the Westfield serial chart for 1924. Anyone having any of the early 20's catalogs that can definitively nail down when the fender changed would be greatly appreciated. V/r Shawn


----------



## 47jchiggins

Freqman1 said:


> This bike recently listed on Ebay has generated some interest and questions so maybe it is time to revisit this thread and see if we can fill in some holes. The bike has the later flared front fender but the Hendee badge so the bike is likely 20-24? The company changed its name from Hendee to Indian 23 Oct, 1923. As discussed earlier in this thread there is the possibility that there was a lag in the '23-4 model year in getting the badge re-tooled and changed. The first letter of the serial is indistinct but is possible a weakly stamped "B" which would line up with the Westfield serial chart for 1924. Anyone having any of the early 20's catalogs that can definitively nail down when the fender changed would be greatly appreciated. V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 343313 View attachment 343314



Interesting question........glad to see this thread being used again. 
It would be interesting to see the fender above, next to a fender with integrated mud guard........is it the same? In order save a $$$, as most companies did,  could Indian simply transition from the earlier fender w/guard to one above ? And then again, transitioned to a fender with no guard and no flare? 

Todd


----------



## Freqman1

Without comparing them together I can't say for sure but judging from the pics of each I would say no. It appears to me the later fender is more rounded (when viewed from the rear) than the skirted fender. V/r Shawn


----------



## sm2501

Super low quality pic from the 1920 catalog.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sm2501

Single picture from 1922






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sm2501

1923 Indian catalog 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sm2501

1924 Indian/Merkel motor wheel catalog






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sm2501

1925 Motobike






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sm2501

1926 catalog page






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sm2501

I, like Shawn, would like to get some original Indian catalogs. I need pretty well all of the 1920's. High quality scans will work too. I'm willing to trade scan for scan, or purchase outright.


----------



## Freqman1

Thanks for posting Scott! Some great info contained in these cat posts but it also begs more questions particularly regarding the front fenders. The '22 photo shows a skirted fender. The '23-4 show a fender with no skirt or duck tail. The '25 pic shows the duck tail but '26 is back to a regular fender? This is one of those where I question how much artwork was recycled for the catalogs. Pure conjecture on my part but I think there may have been a disconnect between the marketing guys at Hendee/Indian and Westfield where the bikes were made. Because Hendee/Indian was focused on the motorcycles they may not have paid as close attention to the bicycle side of things. Again I'm just throwing this out there but clearly the Ebay bike has a Hendee badge with the duck tail fender. Can anyone tell me whether the Westfield numbers hold true for the Indians? 

Since I'm in the asking mood how about those with original bikes post up some pics and serial numbers? I think if we could see enough bikes and bounce this off the lit then we might get a pretty good idea of what right looks like. Thanks to all those that contribute. V/r Shawn


----------



## Goldenindian

Isn't this ad right for the ebay bicycle? No flare fender and hendee badge. 1923ish. At least it starts to narrow the possible years. (Thanks for sharing all these sweet catalogs Scott)


----------



## Goldenindian

So.....looks to me, flared fender goes out in 1923 catalog. And in 1925 badge changes and white darts come in. So ebay indian could be 1923/1924 only??? With that badge that fork and frame size. Right...?


----------



## Freqman1

Goldenindian said:


> So.....looks to me, flared fender goes out in 1923 catalog. And in 1925 badge changes and white darts come in. So ebay indian could be 1923/1924 only??? With that badge that fork and frame size. Right...?




That's kinda what I'm thinking as well. V/r Shawn


----------



## Freqman1

Here is Lot 60 from the 2014 Copake auction. The default year for Indians at Copake seems to be 1915--ironic since they didn't even sell a bike in '15. At any rate this one has the duck tail fender and the Indian Motocycle badge. Personally I don't believe this tank originated on this bike but it was sold as original for $7020 (fees included). Has the filigree decals but is solid red vice a white head tube so year??? V/r Shawn


----------



## Goldenindian

Now I see what your saying about fender. Interesting.


----------



## Freqman1

Here is lot 173 from Part I of the 2012 Copake Pedaling History Auction. Described as a ca. 1915 restored bike. I'm thinking '23-4. Has the Hendee badge and straight fender. Sold for $3565 fees inclusive. Looks like a really old restoration and that would be a smok'n deal in today's market in my opinion. V/r Shawn


----------



## Goldenindian

I agree. Very nice machine. I love the small frame Indians. 3.5 headtube. 18 inch (I think)That's why I liked that ebay indian even though it was a little later.....


----------



## Goldenindian

Found this pic on the web. This looks like that straight fender?


----------



## Goldenindian

Also have no idea is it has that hendee badge.


----------



## Freqman1

I believe the Ebay bike and the one from Copake in post #131 are the same year. I also believe the year to be 1924 even though the lit posted for '24 shows the straight fender. A possible explanation is that the illustrations were simply carried over from the previous model year. One thing I don't see in this thread is a definitive date for the last year Westfield produced the Indian--1928? V/r Shawn


----------



## dfa242

Freqman1 said:


> ...One thing I don't see in this thread is a definitive date for the last year Westfield produced the Indian--1928? V/r Shawn



Well, I know Westfield was still making them as late as 1937.


----------



## Freqman1

dfa242 said:


> Well, I know Westfield was still making them as late as 1937.



I'd like to see some pics of the balloon tire, Westfield built bikes that late e.g. 35-37. What badge was used? V/r Shawn


----------



## Freqman1

fordsnake said:


> This should help...the years correspond to corporate changing their name. Hendee started the Hendee Mfg. Co. late in 1898, tooling had to begin in 1899? He retired from the company in 1916 before leaving he stewarded the relationship with Westfield in 1915 to make the Indian (the 1916 model was the end of the cutout script) The board of directors struggled with the company and renamed the company in late Oct 1923...again retooling would have taken some time for introduction. I have no idea when the Indian badge was last used?




I'm thinking the badge listed as 1917-23 actually went into 1924 sometime and was probably changed during the model year. I would still like to know what the last date for the third badge shown is. dfa242 says Westfield was making Indians into '37 (post #138) but I don't believe I've seen any lit past about 1928 for the Indians. V/r Shawn


----------



## dfa242

Freqman1 said:


> I'd like to see some pics of the balloon tire, Westfield built bikes that late e.g. 35-37. What badge was used? V/r Shawn



Here's a '37 -


----------



## Freqman1

dfa242 said:


> Here's a '37 -
> View attachment 347317 View attachment 347318 View attachment 347319 View attachment 347320View attachment 347321




Great bike! It would be interesting to see some of the bikes during the single tube to balloon tire transition e.g. double bars? V/r Shawn


----------



## sm2501

Early Indian badge 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Freqman1

I've read the previous posts concerning this badge. My thought are that this was the first badge used on the early bicycles prior to the introduction of the motorcycles and probably only about two or three years--1899-1900 with maybe a year either side. Dangerous, I know, but I'm assuming there are no known 1898-9//1900-04 Indian bicycles? If so I'd like to see some pics. I would also be interested in seeing any lit of the transitional period of the single tube (28" tire) to balloon tire bikes ca. 1934. Based on the bike above (1937) I'm guessing this badge was used pretty much up until 1941. Not that I've really looked but I haven't seen much lit past '28. Were the bikes of the 30's carried in the regular motorcycle literature or was their stand alone advertisement/dealer lit for these? V/r Shawn


----------



## filmonger

1900 Indian ( Hendee ) Bicycle ads... From the Bicycling World



 

.


----------



## Miyata FL.




----------



## hoofhearted

*
My 1901 Hendee INDIAN Special Racer ... 24'' Wheel.

The 1901 catalog does not show any machine other
than those in 28''- wheel size.  May have been a special
build.  Note the 2-plate fork ... the paint ''fishtail'' feature
at the bottom of the fork blades is not visible in these 
fotos ... but is visible when viewed in person.

*


----------



## catfish

Patric,   Please check your e-mail... And your spam folder. I've e-mailed you a few times in the last few months with no reply....

  Catfish




hoofhearted said:


> *My 1901 Hendee INDIAN Special Racer ... 24'' Wheel.
> 
> The 1901 catalog does not show any machine other
> than those in 28''- wheel size.  May have been a special
> build.  Note the 2-plate fork ... the paint ''fishtail'' feature
> at the bottom of the fork blades is not visible in these
> fotos ... but is visible when viewed in person.
> 
> *
> View attachment 683631
> 
> 
> View attachment 683632
> 
> 
> View attachment 683635
> 
> 
> View attachment 683636
> View attachment 683634
> 
> 
> View attachment 683637
> 
> 
> View attachment 683639


----------



## hoofhearted

.


----------



## redline1968

Original 1923.


----------



## redline1968

Cleaned up 1923 Indian. Yes it’s all original...


----------



## dave the wave

Here's one of my indians i sold to a friend of mine who restored it.


----------



## YourFriendKen




----------



## YourFriendKen

Very much enjoyed this thread on early Indian bicycle history, added these pages from 1902 Indian Cycle Catalog. This is the first to include an Indian Motocycle. Note, the picture of the motocycle is the prototype, the production units had several changes, most noticable is the proto had this very small fuel tank which has no Indian logo.


----------



## fordsnake

Thanks Ken, you just helped closed another gap of the Indian bicycle history with this 1902 catalog addition. It's interesting to see that Hendee had introduced a few of the iconic Indian features in 1902; its frame design and the chainring. Also note; all models were painted black with the exception of the "RED INDIAN" which came in two additional colors; royal blue and vermillion (the Indian Red). These all sported the opened cut-out Indian badge. One last thing, you make mention the motorcycle featured in this catalog is possibly a prototype? Respectfully, Hendee Motorcycles had been established and were in full production by 1902...read their manifesto (your 3rd attachment)" Facts Worth Mentioning" #7.

By 1904 Hendee had stopped manufacturing bicycles all together and had placed a great importance on producing the best motocycle, as evident in the introduction of the Indian 1916 bicycle catalog.


----------



## YourFriendKen

fordsnake said:


> Thanks Ken, you just helped closed another gap of the Indian bicycle history with this 1902 catalog addition. It's interesting to see that Hendee had introduced a few of the iconic Indian features in 1902; its frame design and the chainring. Also note; all models were painted black with the exception of the "RED INDIAN" which came in two additional colors; royal blue and vermillion (the Indian Red). These all sported the opened cut-out Indian badge. One last thing, you make mention the motorcycle featured in this catalog is possibly a prototype? Respectfully, Hendee Motorcycles had been established and were in full production by 1902...read their manifesto (your 3rd attachment)" Facts Worth Mentioning" #7.
> 
> By 1904 Hendee had stopped manufacturing bicycles all together and had placed a great importance on producing the best motocycle, as evident in the introduction of the Indian 1916 bicycle catalog.
> View attachment 714674




It looks like you misunderstood my note, yes the motocycles started production in 1902, I just wanted to let everyone know that the image used in the first catalog is not of the production model, it is actually the pre production prototype which Hedstrom fabricated.


----------



## catfish




----------



## filmonger




----------



## Freqman1

filmonger said:


> View attachment 715639




I'd like to know what year this is from. My guess is from 1898?-1904. A lot of people get confused with the 1916- on bikes based on the badge. Some still think if it says "Hendee" on the badge then it was made by Hendee when, in fact, all of these bikes were made by Westfield for Hendee. V/r Shawn


----------



## filmonger

Apologies - I have been all over the place lately with rim research and I grabbed this without dating it. But - most of my research has been within the date range you are talking about. I'll still try and backtrack to see if I can find this in my history - but off the top of my head, I just cannot remember. I grab things sometimes while doing other research that I think is interesting.


----------



## redline1968

1901 pope built


----------



## Freqman1

redline1968 said:


> View attachment 715787 1901 pope built



How is that bike badged? The early Indians 1898?-1904 were built by Hendee. V/r Shawn


----------



## fordsnake

Mark, have we've exhausted the history of the Indian and its importance, or can I post a picture of my bulldog? He's just as cute as this 1901 Pope built bike. Remember (to Shawn) Hendee contracted with Westfield (Pope) in 1915 not '16 (see my post #45).

I love the Pope springer fork, and it was introduced in 1910 (see below attachment)






Here it is installed on an Indian with a Merkel Motor Wheel. Note; the bike is a Special Delivery with the black paint scheme and contrasting pins, it also sports the six spider chainring that was used on the Hedstrom prototype.


----------



## dfa242

...


----------



## Freqman1

fordsnake said:


> Mark, have we've exhausted the history of the Indian and its importance, or can I post a picture of my bulldog? He's just as cute as this 1901 Pope built bike. Remember (to Shawn) Hendee contracted with Westfield (Pope) in 1915 not '16 (see my post #45).
> 
> I love the Pope springer fork, and it was introduced in 1910 (see below attachment)
> 
> View attachment 715806
> 
> 
> Here it is installed on an Indian with a Merkel Motor Wheel. Note; the bike is a Special Delivery with the black paint scheme and contrasting pins, it also sports the six spider chainring that was used on the Hedstrom prototype.
> 
> View attachment 715807View attachment 715808 View attachment 715811
> 
> 
> View attachment 715812View attachment 715813





Carlton,
      I use the '16 date as the production of bicycles. I was aware that they contracted in '15 but didn't think bicycle production actually started until the '16 model year. Do you contend there were '15 models? Re: the Pope post--this is what started to dilute the Flying Merkel thread//Dean I believe Carlton was referring to the off topic post (sarcasm). V/r Shawn


----------



## redline1968

Looks like Pope built bikes for hendee “Indian”  in 1901


----------



## fordsnake

I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusion that Westfield built early Indians...but for our edification please share your documentation (evidence) or pics of a 1901 Indian to compare? I'd love to have been a fly on the wall watching Augustus Pope and George Hendee battle over infringements and patents. LOL


----------



## redline1968

Besides the obvious chain ring the frame measures out as specified to the 02 catalog at the rear stays and the 1 “ tubing.  I’m sure 01 hendee’s are rarer then hens teeth but I’m sure someone has a example somewhere.


----------



## fordsnake

Mark, so let me try to understand…you’re eluding that the 1902 Indians were Westfield built?

Ok, let stick with this conjecture, I’ll concur the frame similarities…(even though, neither of us has ever seen a 1901-1902 Indian!  So like your speculation, my agreement is pure superficial based without facts or merit! Perhaps one day in our lifetime we'll have the good fortune to actually see one up close! Regardless, lets look at the known facts we have:

*Jobbers and suppliers were abundant during TOC.*


 




*Almost every bike manufacturer ordered their parts from a supplier then welded, polished, painted and assembled on site.*






*1” tubing (shown in your Pope pics) was not proprietary or an anomaly, but common. Early 1900 there was a trend to go to a smaller size tubing (for a lighter bike)…yet many makers proposed returning to the larger diameter for safety reasons.*


----------



## fordsnake

More to come


----------



## redline1968

In the early days Hendee raced bicycles and Col  pope did too... so I’m thinking this was a long frendship developed through this and the reason why hendee selected pope for the bicycle Indian brand.. since they in 01-1902 focused on motorcycle building,  hendee decited to subletting the bicycle building to pope which saves costs and maintain a long term friendship..


----------



## fordsnake

redline1968 said:


> In the early days Hendee raced bicycles and Col  pope did too... so I’m thinking this was a long frendship developed through this and the reason why hendee selected pope for the bicycle Indian brand.. since they in 01-1902 focused on motorcycle building,  hendee decited to subletting the bicycle building to pope which saves costs and maintain a long term friendship..










When dealing with history, it’s easy to make conjectures without documented evidence. There's an urge for us to want to fill in the blanks with OUR interpretation of what we think are possibilities. Sometimes these interpretations come from things that seem familiar or from what we've seen or what we've heard. We sometimes attempt to connect the dots that aren’t there, trying to make sense of a situation that never existed and unfortunately jumping to conclusions that are wrong.

Albert Augustus Pope was born in 1843 and George Mallory Hendee was born in 1866…that’s a 23-year age difference!  Hendee; America's first national cycling champion, retired from competitive racing at 20 years old. I think we can conclude, the idea of Pope & Hendee ever competitively racing…never happened!

The closest Pope ever came to racing competitively was as a spectator.

We all know Albert A. Pope was a bicycle mogul, a conglomerate and a monopoly; controlling the supply chain of his products, in-house productions, mergers, acquisitions, and patent law suits, (A.B.C trust). And him later becoming a pioneer in the automotive industry…but he was never a racing competitor!

https://connecticuthistory.org/albert-augustus-pope-1843-1909/

If you have evidence that contradicts this fact…I (we) eagerly anticipate your response. We're here to learn.


----------



## redline1968

its a 1902...pope.  your  right ...I just realized  I really don’t care.. nor wish to participate. It’s one of those subjects I prefer to let go and enjoy buying pope, Miami built bikes as I have been for many years and Let the paper freaks do their thing...lol


----------



## Dan the bike man

fordsnake said:


> View attachment 716657
> 
> When dealing with history, it’s easy to make conjectures without documented evidence. There's an urge for us to want to fill in the blanks with OUR interpretation of what we think are possibilities. Sometimes these interpretations come from things that seem familiar or from what we've seen or what we've heard. We sometimes attempt to connect the dots that aren’t there, trying to make sense of a situation that never existed and unfortunately jumping to conclusions that are wrong.
> 
> Albert Augustus Pope was born in 1843 and George Mallory Hendee was born in 1866…that’s a 23-year age difference!  Hendee; America's first national cycling champion, retired from competitive racing at 20 years old. I think we can conclude, the idea of Pope & Hendee ever competitively racing…never happened!
> 
> The closest Pope ever came to racing competitively was as a spectator.
> 
> We all know Albert A. Pope was a bicycle mogul, a conglomerate and a monopoly; controlling the supply chain of his products, in-house productions, mergers, acquisitions, and patent law suits, (A.B.C trust). And him later becoming a pioneer in the automotive industry…but he was never a racing competitor!
> 
> https://connecticuthistory.org/albert-augustus-pope-1843-1909/
> 
> If you have evidence that contradicts this fact…I (we) eagerly anticipate your response. We're here to learn.




All of your posts are informative and well researched . Please keep them coming in the future!


----------



## 47jchiggins

For several months, I along with Shawn @Freqman1, have been trying to crack the Indian serial number code. A lot of time has gone into comparing different numbers to see if a pattern would emerge but we still need more proof. As an example, I have three serial numbers of known 1916 (script badged) Indians, ALL begin with the same letter and having the same font. This is important because there is a point in time where the font appears to change as does the letter sequence. There are several other serial numbers that have a beginning letter which appears to confirm the possibility of a patter and jives with known data found in catalogs and other printed information.
In order to confirm these findings, we would like your help. If you have or had an indian, please post your serial number or partial number (beginning letter and first few numbers) here or if you prefer to keep your information private, please pm me or Shawn @Freqman1. For those who have already provided information, thank you.
Todd


----------



## jimbo53

I was searching for pictures of motorcycles in winter, and came across this 1914 Hendee Indian. Be still, my heart!


----------



## redline1968

Carlton.. my apologies if I insulted you... your work is fantastic. Keep up the good work.


----------



## corbettclassics




----------



## corbettclassics

I haven't really been following this thread very much but, does it mean that the closest thing you could get to a factory racer by Indian ( 1901/02 ) is a Pope Columbia factory racer ?? 

I have a factory racer by Columbia 1902 Model 83 - so was just curious if there are close comparisons to the two. I believe it's the only one surviving as I've never seen another.


----------



## Freqman1

Nope-the Pope post has no relation to Indian, Hendee, or the bikes discussed in this thread. For a 1901 Indian special racer see post #147 of this thread. V/r Shawn


----------



## corbettclassics

Cabinet card of Hendee..


----------



## fordsnake

Very nice!


----------



## corbettclassics

Here's some more if you want to read about a period article on Hendee.

Enjoy


----------



## cyclingday

I came across this brochure for an Indian dealership in Milwaukee, and it’s from the same shop as the point of purchase decal on my 1923 model 131 T.




It’s too bad, the decal isn’t in as good of shape as the brochure is, but at least I  know, what the missing segments looked like.
Nice coincidence, finding that brochure.


----------



## friday

does anyone know of photos of Hendee and Al Crocker snr?


----------



## Pedals Past

Love to hear any known history or literature to this bike


----------



## bricycle

Pedals Past said:


> View attachment 1103173
> 
> 
> Love to hear any known history or literature to this bike



think these were 1936-7ish


----------



## cyclingday

I’m still trying to put together the accessory kit, but I finally got all the kinks ironed out on the 1923 Indian.








It’s always a treat to ride one of these relics, that look to have not been ridden in many decades.
I feel as though, if the bike could talk, it would be thanking me for finally showing it a little love.
Kind of like a caged bird I suppose.


----------



## Freqman1

Interesting that your bike doesn’t have an “Indian” down tube decal. My theory is that if the bike was originally equipped as a tank bike it would not have the down tube decal. V/r Shawn


----------



## cyclingday

I think your right about that, Shawn.
There was a discussion about that in one of the other threads, with some catalog documentation to back that up.


----------



## redline1968

Couple of indian excessories I never posted here.


----------



## cyclingday

Very nice, Mark!
As luck would have it, I got one of these Pennants, from the dealership that originally sold my bike.





I couldn’t believe it, until my eyes cleared, and I realized what I was looking at. Lol!


----------



## redline1968

Not sure about the pump but it came with the bike as is the wrench..clock and banner were found later..they just fit so nicely :0:0:0


----------



## Xcelsior




----------



## redline1968

Motorcycle pedals nice...


Xcelsior said:


> View attachment 1115705
> 
> View attachment 1115703


----------



## cyclingday




----------



## hoofhearted




----------



## cyclingday




----------



## cyclingday

A few updated pictures of the 1923 model 131-T with the accessory kit installed.


----------



## Rusty72

Amazing !


----------



## tir907

Great stuff on the Indian bicycles and Hendee..Here's a headstock Badge I can't seem to find any info on.. Sorry only picture I have .might get better ones in a week or two .along with the bike


----------



## bike

@catfish


----------



## Freqman1

tir907 said:


> Great stuff on the Indian bicycles and Hendee..Here's a headstock Badge I can't seem to find any info on.. Sorry only picture I have .might get better ones in a week or two .along with the bikeView attachment 1142146



@47jchiggins


----------



## dfa242

Silver King and Queen were very early Indians - nice find!


----------



## bike

There are at least 2 silver king badges


----------



## cyclingday

Yes,
Our interest has been piqued
Definitely post more pictures of the bike when/if you get it.


----------



## cyclingday




----------



## bike




----------



## fordsnake

The above badge is from 1894 to 1895. When Hendee manufactured his first safeties after retiring from racing. He badged his bikes Silver Kings, Silver Queens under *“Geo.M.Hendee” *nameplate. Excellent find, indeed rare.



dfa242 said:


> Silver King and Queen were very early Indians




Respectfully I disagree...the first Indians were low grade export bicycles! Manufactured to appeal to the British market. Apparently the Brits were fascinated with the American Wild West. Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co., did not wish to cannibalized their top tier bikes, the Silver King and Queen. They offered a more economical  bike and called it the “American Indian.”

The word “American” was later dropped from their roster. The first recorded use of the name Indian was Jan. 1, 1898. Just a few weeks later on Jan 21,1898, Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co., filed for bankruptcy! Hendee was able to acquired all the inventory at auction and quickly reorganized and renamed the company *Hendee Mfg. Co.*

April 1, 1898 – Hendee trademarked the word “Silver King” and ended building the Silver King and Silver Queen.

The name “Indian” was trademarked July 17, 1902.


----------



## dfa242

fordsnake said:


> The above badge is from 1894 to 1895. When Hendee manufactured his first safeties after retiring from racing. He badged his bikes Silver Kings, Silver Queens under *“Geo.M.Hendee” *nameplate. Excellent find, indeed rare.
> 
> 
> 
> Respectfully I disagree...the first Indians were low grade export bicycles! Manufactured to appeal to the British market. Apparently the Brits were fascinated with the American Wild West. Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co., did not wished to cannibalized their top tier bikes, the Silver King and Queen. So they offered a more economical  bike and called it the “American Indian.”
> 
> The word “American” was later dropped from their roster. The first recorded use of the name Indian was Jan. 1, 1898.
> In Jan 21,1898, the Hendee & Nelson Mfg. Co., filed for bankruptcy. Hendee was able to acquired all the inventory at auction and quickly reorganized and renamed his company *Hendee Mfg. Co.*
> 
> April 1, 1898 – Hendee trademarked the word “Silver King.” but never again builds a Silver King or Queen.
> 
> The name “Indian” was trademarked July 17, 1902.



I stand corrected - as always, thanks for the education.


----------



## Barnegatbicycles




----------



## fordmike65

Barnegatbicycles said:


> View attachment 1161248
> 
> View attachment 1161249
> 
> View attachment 1161250
> 
> View attachment 1161251
> 
> View attachment 1161252


----------



## oldspoke

Barnegatbicycles said:


> View attachment 1161248
> 
> View attachment 1161249
> 
> View attachment 1161250
> 
> View attachment 1161251
> 
> View attachment 1161252



Wow ! What is the history of this beauty ? Thanks for sharing !


----------



## New Mexico Brant

oldspoke said:


> Wow ! What is the history of this beauty ? Thanks for sharing !



Looks like Mr. G’s bike, do you now own it Matt?


----------



## bricycle

what is that a BSA Indian??


----------



## bike

-In Doubt (my post "The more serious racing machine was equipped with some BSA components-I have seen this on a catalog page but cannot find it right away."
I was looking back through the thread and saw racers speedway models with 2 piece cranks and no BSA.


----------



## Barnegatbicycles

If you can find a catalog image that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


----------



## redline1968

Ill trade you a palet of toilet paper for it!   :0... i need it next to my 23...


----------



## fordsnake

I'm surprised this Indian has not graced this Hendee thread? When Scott shared this beautiful orphaned head badge several years ago...my mouth dropped from its awesomeness! Then the questions surfaced as to its date? When did Hendee create it? I will admit I had serious doubts about this head badge, it was a head scratcher, a mystery, because there was no archival information about a Hendee bike to ever wear this badge? Which only underscores what I've always known...the TOC & Teen era is a lightning rod for comments, opinions and criticism. It brings out the best and the worst in collectors, because we allow catalogs to shape our opinions as to what we discern as  truth and fact!  Let me be the first to say, I stand corrected about the existence of a bike ever adorning this badge! This is very satisfying and makes me really appreciate that one can be wrong and yet feel good at the same time. The TOC and Teens is an era we know little about and we need to remain open-minded and receptive to the possibilities and the maybes? There’s so much misunderstood and unknowns about these early bicycles and we have much to learn... it's not always found between the pages of a catalog.


----------



## fordsnake

to be continued..


----------



## fordmike65

fordsnake said:


> I'm surprised this Indian has not graced this Hendee thread? When Scott shared this beautiful orphaned head badge several years ago...my mouth dropped from its awesomeness! Then the questions surfaced as to its date? When did Hendee create it? I will admit I had serious doubts about this head badge, it was a head scratcher, a mystery, because there was no archival information about a Hendee bike to ever wear this badge? Which only underscores what I've always known...the TOC & Teen era is a lightning rod for comments, opinions and criticism. It brings out the best and the worst in collectors, because we allow catalogs to shape our opinions as to what we discern as  truth and fact!  Let me be the first to say, I stand corrected about the existence of a bike ever adorning this badge! This is very satisfying and makes me really appreciate that you can be wrong but feel good at the same time. This is an era we know little about and we need to remain open-minded and receptive to the possibilities and the maybes? There’s so much misunderstood and unknowns about these early bicycles and we have much to learn... it's not always found between the pages of a catalog.
> 
> View attachment 1162630
> 
> View attachment 1162632
> 
> View attachment 1162631
> 
> View attachment 1162633
> View attachment 1162635
> 
> View attachment 1162634


----------



## Barnegatbicycles

Do you have detailed pictures of the hubs?


----------



## New Mexico Brant

bike said:


> -In Doubt (my post "The more serious racing machine was equipped with some BSA components-I have seen this on a catalog page but cannot find it right away."
> I was looking back through the thread and saw racers speedway models with 2 piece cranks and no BSA.



Paul is correct, we do see BSA components being pushed as an upgrade for racers.  Pierce racing bikes with BSA parts come to mind immediately.  @2jakes posted this Mid-Western bike shop (circa 1912. Metzger Bicycle shop. Detroit City. _Shorpy Archives), _as post #23 in the Merkel thread._  C_learly BSA "fittings" were an active part of their business.


----------



## fordmike65

New Mexico Brant said:


> Paul is correct, we do see BSA components being pushed as an upgrade for racers.  Pierce racing bikes with BSA parts come to mind immediately.  @2jakes posted this Mid-Western bike shop (circa 1912. Metzger Bicycle shop. Detroit City. _Shorpy Archives), _clearly BSA "fittings" were active in their business.
> View attachment 1162837



Interesting...If this hadn't been posted as a Detroit bicycle shop, I would have thought it was a shop across the pond going by all the rod brake bikes, 3pc cranks, Lucas lamps and so many "tyre" and BSA signs.


----------



## cyclingday

The Indian and Excelsior motorcycles are fantastic!
It looks like a Harley Davidson up front.
These guys had it all!


----------



## fordsnake

How much should we rely on a bicycle catalog or it’s advertisements?

This is a beautiful rendering of a 1916 Indian motobike. This was the year Indian announced it was returning to the bicycle market and this was the introductory Motobike. Noticed the low-profile stance of the bike and that attractive slim cigar-tank neatly tucked between the narrow double bar frame. Also take notice of the shallow sides of the guards (fenders), the small apron on the bottom front fender...also there are no tank straps, and  feast your eyes on that large Indian script displayed on the tank...have your eyeballs ever spotted this before? Seriously…have you ever seen this Indian?




I guess if it did exist, it might look something like this, but with tank straps?




Indian offered two motobike sizes; 21” & 19”. The different configurations, allows for the unique cigar-tank and the specifically designed end-caps that butt neatly behind the head tube of the desired frame size. These end caps are not reversible! Assuring one size does not fit all!








Much has been mentioned about the Columbia cigar tank...the Indian and the Columbia were Westfield built. If you wish to insert a Columbia tank between the double bars of a naked Indian…you’ll encounter a real challenge...it’s not easy without some modifications. The top and bottom frame tubes on the Columbia are longer in length than the Indian. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/trade-only-nos-columbia-cigar-tank.155123/

Initially the Indian motobike was specifically offered and sold to the young adult male? It wasn’t until after the company had changed its name from Hendee Mfg to Indian Mfg, that the board of directors also changed the bicycle direction, flipping the advertising messaging from the young male to the younger juvenile; this was to appeal to the siblings, inspiring them to be like their big brothers, who were zipping around town on their Indian Motorcycles.

Indian had developed a “retention strategy" from the cradle to the grave! Start them off young with bikes...developed their loyalty to the brand t as young men…and keep them as motorcycle enthusiasts until they’re too old to ride!

Harley Davidson had also tried this tactic, but later failed miserably! Arthur Davidson, HD Motor Company senior partner, decided to experiment with the introduction of a line of bicycles, featuring gorgeous paint, pinstripes and a proprietary chain ring. Davidson convinced his idea was a gem. But later said, his HD dealers, “just laughed at me,” “Who wants to pedal a bicycle if you can motor around on a motorcycle?” In the end, the experiment failed! The dealers eventually placed the bikes in the corner where they sat and collected dust. By 1922, the HD Motor Company had pulled out of the bicycle business.

Harley Davidson did offer a cigar-tank model version for its bicycle, offered to the dealers and was featured one year only.


Allow me to reprise my previous findings,  every Indian motobike showcased on the covers of its catalog before 1924 featured the 19” model?  Yet the catalog copy states that the 19” frame was an option. Any thoughts as to why the secondary bike is featured as the number one bike? 

After change its messaging to focus in boys, in 1928 the catalog share both Motobike frames. But this time the tank model and the delivery bike are the same frame, and they're listed as 19" bikes (which makes sense since its now directed to a younger audience) Now I'm confused, because I always thought this particular frame geometry was the taller 21"frame? Am I being misled by the catalog images or copy?







What size is this tankless motobike model? Looks like the 19"




If I've confused you... joined the club!  I'm a life member, having spent a great deal of time trying to get clarity...there's just too much to uncover!

Just how many Motobike frames did Indian offer each year? I'd like to think just two sizes, but I've been wrong before? Perhaps those collectors who are so lucky to own an Indian motobike could submit their frame size and which geometry design they have A or B ?


----------



## cyclingday

1923 model 131-T,  21” geometry A.


----------



## cyclingday

fordsnake said:


> Much has been mentioned about the Columbia cigar tank...the Indian and the Columbia were Westfield built. If you wish to insert a Columbia tank between the double bars of a naked Indian…you’ll encounter a real challenge...it’s not easy without some modifications. The top and bottom frame tubes on the Columbia are longer in length than the Indian. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/trade-only-nos-columbia-cigar-tank.155123/




I spotted this nice looking Columbia Motorbike on eBay this morning, and immediately thought of what you said about the compatibility issues.
That would be a shame, if the nice “Cigar Tank” was removed from this bike, in an attempt to satisfy someone quest to equip their Indian.







Especially, if in the end, it didn’t fit, without some modification.
I’m surprised they left the rear clamping bracket behind.


----------



## fordsnake

Yup, it happens.


----------



## Tom Ca

My split crank frame is A aswell tall frame


----------



## dubsey55

Look at the 19" and 21" tank model motobike  cover art again.  The 19" model is simply much better looking!  And thats what its all about,,,,,getting the prospective buyer to LOOK.   Frame size comes later,,,,,Right?


----------



## cyclingday

Yep!
And that is why Car commercials used to have smoking hot babes pop the hood to tell you all about the latest features.
The old CEO of Carl’s Jr. said it best, when he was asked why he used sexy women in his commercials?
He said, “Because, ugly women don’t sell Hamburgers.”
He got lambasted for saying that, but, sometimes, the truth hurts.
Advertising, is all about attracting eyeballs.


----------



## gkeep

Great thread and fantastic new information! I wonder what year this Columbia was built as it does not have the collared lug at the seat tube liek the Westfield Indian frames posted, both photos and particularly the catalog images show that collared joint. For general frame dating purposes it would be interesting to know what year they changed to the trumpet style lug. Does anyone have a date range for that change? Mid 20s, late 20s, early 30s? Maybe catalog shots would give hints?

Collared lug shows in the catalog illustration and Fordsnake's frame shot.








No collar on this lug.


----------



## Freqman1

While doing some research last night I came across this in the 1920 catalog. I had theorized that this was the case but the literature confirms that if a bike has a decal on the down tube it was not originally equipped with a tank. Yep the dealer could have added a tank but if you see one so equipped today my bet is that a collector added it at some point maybe even adding a faux restoration to the tank and decals. V/r Shawn


----------



## Xcelsior

Tankless model


----------



## redline1968

If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy..lol


----------



## fordsnake

Does anyone know the Indian Motobike model numbers for 1917, 1921 1922 and 1927?


----------



## Freqman1

fordsnake said:


> Does anyone know the Indian Motobike model numbers for 1917, 1921 1922 and 1927?



Carlton the following is for the fully equipped (tank and light) models
1917--Model 32
1921--111T
1922--??
1927--151T (I don't have the '27 catalog but both the '26 and '28 cats list this as Model 151T)

V/r Shawn


----------



## fordsnake

Is this correct so far for the Motobike Electrically Equipped Model #'s

1916 – 12
1917 – 32
1918 – 51T
1919 – 71T
1920 – 91T
1921 – 111T
1922 – ?
1923 – 131T
1924 – 151T
1925 – 151T
1926 – 151T
1926 – 151T
1927 – 151T
1928 – 151T


----------



## Freqman1

1916- Model 12 (no "T") unequipped motorbike is Model 11
1917-Model 32 (no "T") unequipped motorbike is Model 31
The rest except as I noted originally I can't say for sure. V/r Shawn


----------



## fordsnake

Thanks. So why the strange permutation of numbers?


----------



## Freqman1

Not sure but if I were to guess I would say a '22 would be a Model 121T. V/r Shawn


----------



## 47jchiggins

Not sure if this helps or adds to the confusion.......


----------



## Freqman1

By "Two-Piece Hanger" I would suppose they are referring to a split bottom bracket? I wonder why they would offer both styles of crank hangers? Do you have the rest of this brochure showing the models or a pic of the crank hangers? V/r Shawn


----------



## 47jchiggins

It was advertised in the Motorcycle and Bicycle Illustrated, not very detailed and very similar to the 23 pamphlet. 
Todd


----------



## 47jchiggins

.


----------



## 47jchiggins

.


----------



## bike

bike from ebay auction


----------



## fordsnake

Before the auction ended the first time, I emailed the seller with several photos of two other bikes exactly like his.  I just wanted to inform the seller, that there were more of these unusual Indians, so that he could address his description about it being  "a one of a kind."  He chose to ignore it and listed it again with the same description.


----------



## Breezer

A huge thank you to the people who put this Indian bicycle thread together and keep adding to it. I appreciate the efforts to be true to history. Often not easy.

I've read everything up to this point, and I've not a whole to add, but one thing I noticed was that the Westfield attributes seemed to morph into Iver Johnson attributes in about 1923 for the rest of the 1920s. Note that post-1923 Indians have the IJ-type fork braces with mid-brace bars (tubes?) that rest against the fork blades. Prior to 1923 the forks have the Westfield-type flat mid-braces, integral to the middle plate of the fork crown. The top of the fork braces appear to be just as distinctive, Westfield- and Iver Johnson-specific. 

My Indian appears to be a 51T or 71T or possibly a Model 32. It has a 21-inch frame of the "A" type (long head tube) and has the flat integral mid-braces. I've yet to find the serial number. It should be on the bottom of the bottom bracket, right?


----------



## Freqman1

Breezer said:


> A huge thank you to the people who put this Indian bicycle thread together and keep adding to it. I appreciate the efforts to be true to history. Often not easy.
> 
> I've read everything up to this point, and I've not a whole to add, but one thing I noticed was that the Westfield attributes seemed to morph into Iver Johnson attributes in about 1923 for the rest of the 1920s. Note that post-1923 Indians have the IJ-type fork braces with mid-brace bars (tubes?) that rest against the fork blades. Prior to 1923 the forks have the Westfield-type flat mid-braces, integral to the middle plate of the fork crown. The top of the fork braces appear to be just as distinctive, Westfield- and Iver Johnson-specific.
> 
> My Indian appears to be a 51T or 71T or possibly a Model 32. It has a 21-inch frame of the "A" type (long head tube) and has the flat integral mid-braces. I've yet to find the serial number. It should be on the bottom of the bottom bracket, right?



Pic?


----------



## Breezer

Not the best photos, but hopefully enough to get across my point...

On the left is our ca1920 Indian deluxe apparently made by Westfield. On the right is a ca1930 Iver Johnson.
Left: The Indian has FLAT mid-braces integral to the fork crown that extend from the crown and loop around the main braces. The top of the braces are fastened to a TWIN-lobed plate affixed to the headset nut.
Right: The IverJ has ROUND mid-braces that extend from the main braces. The mid-braces only kiss the fork blades, they are not attached. Meanwhile above, the main braces merge together before being fastened to the SINGLE-lobed plate affixed to the headset nut.

Many makers used the Westfield design. I only know of Iver Johnson to use the other design.

The Indian catalogs from 1923 onward (to 1928 or so) shown on this thread's prior pages use the IverJ design. Also in these catalogs are shown lesser Indian frames with a design similar to Iver Johnson classic arched truss frame.

Perhaps by 1923 Westfield was out and Iver Johnson was in? This might coincide directly with Harley-Davidson bailing on their bicycle line, built by Iver Johnson.
Westfield was only 10 miles from Springfield, but IJ's Fitchburg was only 80 miles in the other direction.

Can anyone confirm or deny my theory?


----------



## Freqman1

IJ did not build the bikes for HD--Davis did. IJ stuff was more proprietary and had no link to Indian, HD, or any other brand. V/r Shawn


----------



## Breezer

What were the primary bicycle trade publications in the US during the 1920s?


----------



## Breezer

More pics of the bike.
Any idea what year it is?
I know the pedals are wrong. I do have some rubber pedals, but they don't say Indian.
Where might I find a serial number? I don't see one on the BB, but this is a repaint. Might need to do some digging.
Anyone have a photo of a s/n on an Indian BB, or GPS cooridinates?
--Joe

J


----------



## Goldenindian

1917-1923 Hendee badge.  cool Indian.


----------



## Breezer

Two things:
1) Precisely where might I unearth the serial number? The paint job is nothing special, but I'd rather not carve it up too badly.
2) What is the real purpose of the split hanger? With ashtabula cranks snaking through the BB there's no way to slide out the crank with Indian's claim of not touching the bearing adjustment. The only advantage I see is minimal chain-line alignment, but there are easier ways to achieve that. Perhaps Indian was contemplating offering a two- or three-piece crank? Then their claim would fly. Still, adjusting the bearings will likely be less hassle than trying to slide out the inner cartridge. Maybe just a marketing thing? What am I failing to see?
Anyone have photos of the Indian BB guts and crank/spindle?

--Joe


----------



## Freqman1

@47jchiggins    I’m thinking about 1918-22. I don’t have my notes with me or I may be able to narrow it down further. I’m surprised that you don’t see any numbers on the BB. Anything on the chain stays? This is a Westfield built bike. V/r Shawn


----------



## Breezer

Believe me, I've looked all over the outside of this bike. It's likely somewhere under the new paint. Anybody have a 1916-1922 Indian serial number photo?

BTW, in Post #243 (this page) I see that Indian refers to their split BB as a "two-piece hanger". In 1923 the up-charge from a one-piece hanger to two-piece hanger was $2.50. That's about $40 today. As a buyer, I think I would've been asking what's in it for me.


----------



## Breezer

Freqman1 said:


> IJ did not build the bikes for HD--Davis did. IJ stuff was more proprietary and had no link to Indian, HD, or any other brand. V/r Shawn




Maybe you know that Iver Johnson built Lovell Diamond bikes for his friend John Lovell, but that was a long time before, early 1890s.
I'd like to see how Huffman's 1920s Davis-built bike construction compared with Iver Johnson's. I never studied this brand, except in the occasional toss. 
Perhaps the Indians from 1923-1929 or so were built by Davis?
--Joe


----------



## Freqman1

Breezer said:


> Maybe you know that Iver Johnson built Lovell Diamond bikes for his friend John Lovell, but that was a long time before, early 1890s.
> I'd like to see how Huffman's 1920s Davis-built bike construction compared with Iver Johnson's. I never studied this brand, except in the occasional toss.
> Perhaps the Indians from 1923-1929 or so were built by Davis?
> --Joe



Nope the Indians were Westfield built and HDs were Davis built. Only the very early-approx 1899-1904 Indians were actually Hendee built. V/r Shawn


----------



## cyclingday

Welcome to the Cabe, Joe!


----------



## Breezer

I put the light, pump and rear reflector on. I also added rubber pedals (which are not stock).

And thank you cyclingday!

--Joe


----------



## Breezer

Freqman1 said:


> Nope the Indians were Westfield built and HDs were Davis built. Only the very early-approx 1899-1904 Indians were actually Hendee built. V/r Shawn




Have you seen any discussion of why Indian construction details shifted dramatically about 1923? Did the Westfield plant's other output include similar changes at that time?
Maybe someone could share photos of a bike or bikes from this period that show similar revamped Westfield output.


----------



## bike

Receivership of/and hendee moving to indian motocycle co


----------



## Freqman1

bike said:


> Receivership of/and hendee moving to indian motocycle co



While true it has nothing to do with Westfield construction. Actually I wouldn’t consider the ‘23 and later bikes radically different. Not sure what you are really talking about here. What did happen about this same time is the acquisition of Miami. The Westfield frames used for the Indians are exactly the same as any other Westfield frame of the same period no matter how it was badged e.g. Columbia, Indian, etc... V/r Shawn


----------



## Barnegatbicycles

Freqman1 said:


> @47jchiggins    I’m thinking about 1918-22. I don’t have my notes with me or I may be able to narrow it down further. I’m surprised that you don’t see any numbers on the BB. Anything on the chain stays? This is a Westfield built bike. V/r Shawn



I thought 17 and 18 were the only years for the peaked headset cups.


----------



## Breezer

Freqman1 said:


> While true it has nothing to do with Westfield construction. Actually I wouldn’t consider the ‘23 and later bikes radically different. Not sure what you are really talking about here. What did happen about this same time is the acquisition of Miami. The Westfield frames used for the Indians are exactly the same as any other Westfield frame of the same period no matter how it was badged e.g. Columbia, Indian, etc... V/r Shawn




No, the pre-1923 and post-1923 Indian frames are not radically different, and with spartan few detail photos on this Indian thread it's difficult to see the differences I'm referring to. The main known differences follow.
1) Fork crown:
--Pre-23 has a triple-plate crown
--Post-23 has a single-plate crown
2) Fork mid-braces: 
--Pre-23 have flat mid-braces that loop around the main braces and are integral to the crown.
--Post-23 have round mid-braces that are brazed to the main braces and only kiss the fork blades.
3) Main brace upper end:
--Pre-23 braces are each fastened to a double-hole plate
--Post-23 braces merge together and the single brace is fastened to a single-hole plate
4) Rims:
--Pre-23 are wood (on later pre-23 models they are steel clad, thought I saw that somewhere)
--Post-23 are steel only
5) Rear tank clamp at seat tube:
--Pre-23, does not exist
--Post-23, exists

For photos of the above examples see the following
Regarding #1, 2, 3: Post #252 (page 13) Note: I didn't have a detail shot of a post-23 Indian, but the Iver Johnson fork has a similar design.
Regarding #1, 2, 3, 4, 5: Post #188 or Post #199 (page 10)

There are perhaps more differences than I point out above, but without more detailed photos it's tough to discern. Somewhere I did notice a 1916 Indian where Westfield used a stamped steel rear fork end. It's just a punched flat plate with a sheet loop threaded through to hold the set screw. Quick and easy. Later, surely seeing volume interest, they went with a forged rear fork end. It has bumps to match the seat- and chain-stay shapes and the set-screw holder is forged into the piece. Mo better and saves fabrication time.

I see #5 as just a running change (perhaps addressing complaints of a rattling tank).
The other items are serious flips in design. I've no idea the reason. One is perhaps as good as the other. Maybe prior to the changes Westfield had hired an ex-Iver designer?
I think I see in Post #228 (page 12) a Westfield-built Columbia with a partly IverJ-type fork design (round mid-braces?). Again, more detailed photos would be helpful. Cyclingday?

I hope that helps.

--Joe


----------



## Breezer

Barnegatbicycles said:


> I thought 17 and 18 were the only years for the peaked headset cups.




Well that would narrow things down some.
Can anyone confirm?


----------



## Barnegatbicycles




----------



## Tom Ca

Breezer said:


> Two things:
> 1) Precisely where might I unearth the serial number? The paint job is nothing special, but I'd rather not carve it up too badly.
> 2) What is the real purpose of the split hanger? With ashtabula cranks snaking through the BB there's no way to slide out the crank with Indian's claim of not touching the bearing adjustment. The only advantage I see is minimal chain-line alignment, but there are easier ways to achieve that. Perhaps Indian was contemplating offering a two- or three-piece crank? Then their claim would fly. Still, adjusting the bearings will likely be less hassle than trying to slide out the inner cartridge. Maybe just a marketing thing? What am I failing to see?
> Anyone have photos of the Indian BB guts and crank/spindle?
> 
> --Joe
> 
> View attachment 1248108



these are where i found some number on my frame


----------



## friday

I always use molasses to remove rust, I don't lose any metal that way. takes a while but no damage is done


----------



## manuel rivera

Barnegatbicycles said:


> I thought 17 and 18 were the only years for the peaked headset cups.







This is my 1920 Westfield


----------



## mikecuda

My 1954 Indian Scout all original except saddle.   I have all the original paperwork.  It was on display at the AACA Museum in Hershey, Pa during the Indian motorcycle display.  Here it is.


----------



## mikecuda

Breezer said:


> I put the light, pump and rear reflector on. I also added rubber pedals (which are not stock).
> 
> And thank you cyclingday!
> 
> --Joe
> 
> View attachment 1248834



That made my heart pound.  i hope to own one of those someday.   My goodness!


----------



## mikecuda

Excellent


----------



## oldebike55

Mr. Monkeyarms said:


> I see an authentic bike. Not a HD but it's a bike. Being in Aurora, CO I wouldn't mind seeing the other bikes he mentioned picking up.....



I did not see posted here...



 the blue 1918 Indian roadster the same seller had on ebay.. I scored it, and will post pics and progress once I get it,deep snow
is slowing delivery from Co.


----------



## Mr. Monkeyarms

That is pretty cool @oldebike55 ! I will keep an eye open for updates on this in the future!


----------



## oldebike55

I've been looking for about 14yrs, for any kind of indian bicycle, I recently built an Native American tribute bike on a '51 cwc  Hiawatha frame I got from @mrg .. even a frame is hard to find, cant wait to get on with it! 
Indian fixated Bob


----------



## oldebike55

hey ya'll
I was directed here, the only pic i have, so far, I

thought I had a 1918 model 70 roadster but was told the chainring is later because of the rim on outer
wheel?I will post more later as the bike is being shipped, hope it is legit, if not I will put a schwinn pixie chain guard and some blue streamers on it an drive it off a mountain... just kiddin!
great site guys!
Bob


----------



## SKPC

This thread is incredible to read through and HIGHLY recommended.    2nd time through all of it for me.   Hours and hours of work sleuthing by the best of the best.  Just incredible.  Thank you to those willing to help educate like minded individuals like myself.


----------



## Freqman1

Like I said on my other post about this bike I question both the fork and badge. I, too, think this is later than ‘18. The headset indicates this as well. The serial might tell us a lot more. Did you happen to ask the seller about it? Be interesting to see if there is any Indian red underneath the blue paint. V/r Shawn


----------



## oldebike55

Blue Indian?
Please help identify.
Ok, got this bike unboxed, and got some #s off the bottom in 2 places, and #s off crank. steer tube is 6/3/8" frame 21"
sorry for bad pics, my phones lame, but.. I'll post pics, and numbers. yes there is red paint under blue.. thanks, Bob
Bottom #F4641
Top of crank hanger  #32235
Crank#5086W




W 5086


----------



## Freqman1

I believe the "D" serial would indicate 1926 which if the case would make the badge incorrect. I can't really see the serial in the photo to see if it's typical Westfield. I've never seen a frame this late with a number on top of the bottom bracket. Westfield experts what ye say?  Can you see what color is inside the bottom bracket? I see both red and blue on the bearing cups which means that both colors I'm seeing are repaints. Can we see a better pic of that rear fender bridge? V/r Shawn


----------



## mikecuda

oldebike55 said:


> Blue Indian?
> Please help identify.
> Ok, got this bike unboxed, and got some #s off the bottom in 2 places, and #s off crank. steer tube is 6/3/8" frame 21"
> sorry for bad pics, my phones lame, but.. I'll post pics, and numbers. yes there is red paint under blue.. thanks, Bob
> Bottom #F4641
> Top of crank hanger  #32235
> Crank#5086WView attachment 1379988
> 
> W 5086View attachment 1379988
> 
> View attachment 1379989
> 
> View attachment 1379990
> 
> View attachment 1379991
> 
> View attachment 1379998



Bob           I was going to bid on that bike.  I bought his Iver Johnson.    I'm currently cutting out the bad metal and replacing them with new metal.


----------



## oldebike55

oldebike55 said:


> Blue Indian?
> Please help identify.
> Ok, got this bike unboxed, and got some #s off the bottom in 2 places, and #s off crank. steer tube is 6/3/8" frame 21"
> sorry for bad pics, my phones lame, but.. I'll post pics, and numbers. yes there is red paint under blue.. thanks, Bob
> Bottom #F4641
> Top of crank hanger  #32235
> Crank#5086WView attachment 1379988
> 
> W 5086View attachment 1379988
> 
> View attachment 1379989
> 
> View attachment 1379990
> 
> View attachment 1379991
> 
> View attachment 1379998



A couple more pics, the upper fender bridge is tube shaped, looks orange inside the BB. badge holes are offset, could not get a good shot..F46416?


----------



## oldebike55

looks like major stuff! how old is it?  


mikecuda said:


> Bob           I was going to bid on that bike.  I bought his Iver Johnson.    I'm currently cutting out the bad metal and replacing them with new metal.
> 
> View attachment 1381035
> 
> View attachment 1381036


----------



## mikecuda

oldebike55 said:


> looks like major stuff! how old is it?



1930ish


----------



## dubsey55

The blue frame looks to me like the road/track frame that westfield/columbia produced for many years. I think those had all 1" main frame tubes, and would have the shallow counterbore for the seatpost "shim", or "duster" as it's called. The fork was probably changed, and the fender cross brace having the boss added to accommodate caliper brakes at some point.  I would research the westfield bike, and also the Indian "speedway" (cataloged) bike.   Anything is possible with Indian. Witness the Indian/BSA track bike,as shown in this thread a few pages back.  I am very fortunate to own one of those myself!  Don't give up!!!


----------



## oldebike55

dubsey55 said:


> The blue frame looks to me like the road/track frame that westfield/columbia produced for many years. I think those had all 1" main frame tubes, and would have the shallow counterbore for the seatpost "shim", or "duster" as it's called. The fork was probably changed, and the fender cross brace having the boss added to accommodate caliper brakes at some point.  I would research the westfield bike, and also the Indian "speedway" (cataloged) bike.   Anything is possible with Indian. Witness the Indian/BSA track bike,as shown in this thread a few pages back.  I am very fortunate to own one of those myself!  Don't give up!!!



Sounds encouraging! It came with a fixed gear rear wheel, so could have had a rear brake.. i'm looking at doing a roadster when i restore her.
did these take the westfield double crown fork? 
@oldebike55


----------



## New Mexico Brant

Let’s try and get this thread back on track:


----------



## oldebike55

Freqman1 said:


> I believe the "D" serial would indicate 1926 which if the case would make the badge incorrect. I can't really see the serial in the photo to see if it's typical Westfield. I've never seen a frame this late with a number on top of the bottom bracket. Westfield experts what ye say?  Can you see what color is inside the bottom bracket? I see both red and blue on the bearing cups which means that both colors I'm seeing are repaints. Can we see a better pic of that rear fender bridge? V/r Shawn



Yes, fellas lets stick to the thread, and help me find the age of this old bike...
any one with a mid 20's Indian diamond frame track bikes that are documented?
thanks one and all,
Bob


----------



## oldebike55

so,homework.. Spent a week trying to find one of these online, more info on here than gooogle...after carefully removing the paint, blue then red over blue, this frameset appears very close to a model 173, 1928 Sagamore racer, posted a few pages back, traces of blue inside BB,overspray on bearing cups was 2 repaints,   Is an early chro/mo alloy 21"frame, all brass and alloy brazed,hidden joints, factory bright blue is what i'm going with.i think the extra #s on top of BB may be a date some work was done 08 2 35 what it reads.
what say y'all?


----------



## Barnegatbicycles

1928 used a different badge.


----------



## New Mexico Brant

oldebike55 said:


> what say y'all?





Barnegatbicycles said:


> 1928 used a different badge.



Can you please show a image with the blue you mention inside the bottom bracket?  The paint on the bearing cups is of no use.  Is there any paint inside the head tube?  When you hit the last blue color was there a primer coat as the base?

One must wonder about the stamping on the top of the bottom bracket.  We have seen such stampings performed by local police departments on other bicycles.  Would someone take a 1928 bike to a police station when it was 7 years old to be stamped?  Possibly those stamps were done by a bike shop when the bike went in for an overhaul?  You would thing a someone who refurbished the bike would have done a better job stamping and would have put them on the underside to be more discrete.  My opinion is the top stamping was performed by a police station because it is so messy.

As Matt said above for the bike to be a 1928 model it would have the post 1923 Indian badge.  With the later badge we really do not know how long Indian used that badge.  There are a couple late 30's balloon tire Indian known with this "Indian Motocycle Co" badge.  I personally own a Columbia made lightweight (it is heavy as hell) sports tourist model with this said badge.  The problem is literature for the Indian bicycles during the 30's and early 40's is very scant.  I have just learned of a circa 1940 +/- Indian/Columbia catalog that exists but have yet to see it (this piece of literature may be helpful to you because according to the previous owner of this catalog Indian offered many different models).  There is not a single piece of Indian literature currently known that shows the 1936/37 German made balloon tire model.

The seller added your badge to that bike so it needs to be completely disregarded.  This brings up another issue with the Indian badges.  The "Hendee" badge you have has holes that are horizontal or nearly horizontal.  The post 1923 badges I am aware of the holes are greatly offset.  As mentioned above, we do not know how long this badge was used but it seems to be approx. 20 years (off and on).  I do not claim to be an expert on the badges; maybe some of the "Indian Motocycle" script badges have a more horizontal orientation to their mounting holes?  Hopefully a badge collector or expert can chime in here.  A final question related to the badge; when you striped off the paint did you find any other holes on the headtube?

The fact the bike seems to be Westfield build and you have a classic Indian chain ring is positive.  I don't think anyone has seriously done much research to determine what bicycles Indian was offering in the late 20's & 1930's; a good start would be at the museum in Springfield.  The second place to look would be their monthly magazine published in the period that presumably from time to time show Indian's bicycle offerings.  We have yet to see a single piece of this literature this is a great opportunity.

If I owned your bicycle I would be trying to research to determine the mounting holes vary on the the later badges.  I would also try to find the 1928 (into the 1930's) monthly magazine and any dealer catalogs with the full offerings to determine what bikes were offered and when.  Good luck with your quest.

Here is the badge the bike should have if it was 1928 or from the 30's:








						Sold - Outstanding Original Indian Head Badge $675 Shipped NOW $575! | Archive (sold)
					

This is the best loose Indian badge I have ever seen.  With OG nickel and painted details in excellent condition.   Display case included.  Please PM to purchase. Provenance:  Ex. Mel Short Collection




					thecabe.com


----------



## oldebike55

New Mexico Brant said:


> Can you please show a image with the blue you mention inside the bottom bracket?  The paint on the bearing cups is of no use.  Is there any paint inside the head tube?  When you hit the last blue color was there a primer coat as the base?
> 
> One must wonder about the stamping on the top of the bottom bracket.  We have seen such stampings performed by local police departments on other bicycles.  Would someone take a 1928 bike to a police station when it was 7 years old to be stamped?  Possibly those stamps were done by a bike shop when the bike went in for an overhaul?  You would thing a someone who refurbished the bike would have done a better job stamping and would have put them on the underside to be more discrete.  My opinion is the top stamping was performed by a police station because it is so messy.
> 
> As Matt said above for the bike to be a 1928 model it would have the post 1923 Indian badge.  With the later badge we really do not know how long Indian used that badge.  There are a couple late 30's balloon tire Indian known with this "Indian Motocycle Co" badge.  I personally own a Columbia made lightweight (it is heavy as hell) sports tourist model with this said badge.  The problem is literature for the Indian bicycles during the 30's and early 40's is very scant.  I have just learned of a circa 1940 +/- Indian/Columbia catalog that exists but have yet to see it (this piece of literature may be helpful to you because according to the previous owner of this catalog Indian offered many different models).  There is not a single piece of Indian literature currently known that shows the 1936/37 German made balloon tire model.
> 
> The seller added your badge to that bike so it needs to be completely disregarded.  This brings up another issue with the Indian badges.  The "Hendee" badge you have has holes that are horizontal or nearly horizontal.  The post 1923 badges I am aware of the holes are greatly offset.  As mentioned above, we do not know how long this badge was used but it seems to be approx. 20 years (off and on).  I do not claim to be an expert on the badges; maybe some of the "Indian Motocycle" script badges have a more horizontal orientation to their mounting holes?  Hopefully a badge collector or expert can chime in here.  A final question related to the badge; when you striped off the paint did you find any other holes on the headtube?
> 
> The fact the bike seems to be Westfield build and you have a classic Indian chain ring is positive.  I don't think anyone has seriously done much research to determine what bicycles Indian was offering in the late 20's & 1930's; a good start would be at the museum in Springfield.  The second place to look would be their monthly magazine published in the period that presumably from time to time show Indian's bicycle offerings.  We have yet to see a single piece of this literature this is a great opportunity.
> 
> If I owned your bicycle I would be trying to research to determine the mounting holes vary on the the later badges.  I would also try to find the 1928 (into the 1930's) monthly magazine and any dealer catalogs with the full offerings to determine what bikes were offered and when.  Good luck with your quest.
> 
> Here is the badge the bike should have if it was 1928 or from the 30's:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sold - Outstanding Original Indian Head Badge $675 Shipped NOW $575! | Archive (sold)
> 
> 
> This is the best loose Indian badge I have ever seen.  With OG nickel and painted details in excellent condition.   Display case included.  Please PM to purchase. Provenance:  Ex. Mel Short Collection
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thecabe.com



Thanks for the feedback,will try for some more pics of the blue, I mentioned earlier, this frame has the offset badge holes for the post '23 badge, which, right before I found this
bike, you sold me a repo badge, without the holes drilled, its going on the bike after paint. v/r Shawn commented on the badge when i first posted,a couple of mock up pics, i found a better fitting nickled fork, till I can trade for a closer factory example. yes some pretty ugly # stamping on BB top. but an interesting project anyway.


----------



## Freqman1

oldebike55 said:


> Thanks for the feedback, I mentioned earlier, this frame has the offset badge holes for the post '23 badge, which, right before I found this
> bike, you sold me a repo badge, without the holes drilled, its going on the bike after paint. a couple of mock up pics, i found a better fitting
> nickled fork, till I can trade for a closer factory example. yes some pretty ugly # stamping on BB top. but an interesting project anyway.View attachment 1392200
> 
> View attachment 1392201
> 
> View attachment 1392202
> 
> View attachment 1392203



I'd like to see the Sagamore badge. Looks like your well on the way to a nice looking bike. V/r Shawn


----------



## oldebike55

heres the badges, large one came on it ,the



 one on right, from NM Brant,
thanks guys, back to the shop..


----------



## oldebike55

A pic of inside BB, a little red in a couple spots, but mostly blue.
ps: found an original badge w/ offset holes, will post a pic when i get it.


----------



## Barnegatbicycles

Just finished cleaning this one up pretty sure it's a 21.


----------



## Barnegatbicycles

April 1900


----------



## Jesse McCauley

After much ado.....
Ca. 1894 George Hendee 'Silver King' back in the fold.


----------



## Jewelman13

Oooo lala!!


----------



## JMbicycles

This is an incredible thread. Thank you for everyone’s efforts. I believe I know what this is, model 72, men’s light roadster. But I’m certainly no expert. Looking for any help and potential value. Thank you!


----------



## Freqman1

JMbicycles said:


> This is an incredible thread. Thank you for everyone’s efforts. I believe I know what this is, model 72, men’s light roadster. But I’m certainly no expert. Looking for any help and potential value. Thank you! View attachment 1423318
> View attachment 1423319
> 
> View attachment 1423320
> 
> View attachment 1423321
> 
> View attachment 1423322
> 
> View attachment 1423323
> 
> View attachment 1423324
> 
> View attachment 1423325



I'm thinking later than a Model 72 which I believe is 1918. To me this looks more like '22ish. It also looks like the bars, stem, seat, and pedals were replaced at some point as well as missing the fenders. Value on these can be all over the place. V/r Shawn


----------



## JMbicycles

Thank you for the info Shawn


----------



## JMbicycles

Freqman1 said:


> I'm thinking later than a Model 72 which I believe is 1918. To me this looks more like '22ish. It also looks like the bars, stem, seat, and pedals were replaced at some point as well as missing the fenders. Value on these can be all over the place. V/r Shawn





Freqman1 said:


> I'm thinking later than a Model 72 which I believe is 1918. To me this looks more like '22ish. It also looks like the bars, stem, seat, and pedals were replaced at some point as well as missing the fenders. Value on these can be all over the place. V/r Shawn





Freqman1 said:


> I'm thinking later than a Model 72 which I believe is 1918. To me this looks more like '22ish. It also looks like the bars, stem, seat, and pedals were replaced at some point as well as missing the fenders. Value on these can be all over the place. V/r Shawn



Thank you Shawn. The bike is located in Canada and I am going to see it in a few weeks. I am an avid CCM collector and this would be my first American made bicycle. I really have no idea where the market is on these. The seller is asking USD $2,200. Given the condition and original parts missing, any help on where that price stands with respect to the market would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!


----------



## Archie Sturmer

Not too sure about that red diamond frame, looks to have some Westfield-like features, except for the Indian badge, and the odd looking (T?) stamping for the serial number prefix.


----------



## New Mexico Brant

JMbicycles said:


> The seller is asking USD $2,200. Given the condition and original parts missing, any help on where that price stands with respect to the market would be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you!



That one is a hard road ahead at $2,200.


----------



## oldebike55

I found a factory badge, for my blue Indian racer, and will be posting pics of the finished bike soon🤩


----------



## oldebike55

Indian rider,
Another Indian motobike project I rescued from ebay, thanks to all of you who helped me make it roadworthy again. Kevinsbikes for the cool wheelset, Jobo for the chainring, and Xcelsior, for a great badge. others also i'm sure.
I did a patina restoration, the frame /forks came with white and red housepaint that I carefully peeled off easily revealing patches of red with a silver galvanized at bottom, deep red inside the BB, as well. this one had the F prefix serial, also, as a blue track racer i'm working on. I'm still researching years of origin. Late 20s?




It rides solid, but a job to go uphill!


----------



## New Mexico Brant

Mods, can you please make this thread a sticky post?


----------



## New Mexico Brant

It is amazing to me that in 32 pages no one from our community has posted a ladies bicycle or tricycle!  Here is what I believe to be a 1923 model 134.  It currently is in “as-found” condition with a very light coat of black overpaint with the original black with gold pins underneath.  It seems everything on the bike is correct and original.  The ghost image “Indian” down tube decal is visible.  The serial number appears to be: A 40555.  A later date reveal with the overpaint removed will be coming…


----------



## Freqman1

New Mexico Brant said:


> It is amazing to me that in 32 pages no one from our community has posted a ladies bicycle or tricycle!  Here is what I believe to be a 1923 model 134.  It currently is in “as-found” condition with a very light coat of black overpaint with the original black with gold pins underneath.  It seems everything on the bike is correct and original.  The ghost image “Indian” down tube decal is visible.  The serial number appears to be: A 40555.  A later date reveal with the overpaint removed will be coming…
> 
> View attachment 1518790
> 
> View attachment 1518791
> 
> View attachment 1518792
> 
> View attachment 1518793
> 
> View attachment 1518794
> 
> View attachment 1518795
> 
> View attachment 1518796
> 
> View attachment 1518797
> 
> View attachment 1518798



Seems the girls bikes whether it be HD, Indian, or FM just don’t get much love. Cool bike but it needs a top bar before I start getting excited! V/r Shawn


----------



## cr250mark

Great bike Brant 
Nice black with gold pinned wheel set , tires with unusual tread pattern. And premium excelsior red waffled pedals 
 ( seen this pattern on early teen / 20’s mead and other various motorbikes ) 

mark


----------



## oldebike55

oldebike55 said:


> Indian rider,
> Another Indian motobike project I rescued from ebay, thanks to all of you who helped me make it roadworthy again. Kevinsbikes for the cool wheelset, Jobo for the chainring, and Xcelsior, for a great badge. others also i'm sure.
> I did a patina restoration, the frame /forks came with white and red housepaint that I carefully peeled off easily revealing patches of red with a silver galvanized at bottom, deep red inside the BB, as well. this one had the F prefix serial, also, as a blue track racer i'm working on. I'm still researching years of origin. Late 20s?View attachment 1486154
> 
> It rides solid, but a job to go uphill!
> View attachment 1486155
> 
> View attachment 1486156
> 
> View attachment 1486157
> 
> View attachment 1486159
> 
> View attachment 1486160



Finally searched and got this Indian I.D'd with help from Leon, Nbhaa.com,  with serial starting F4 , It's a 1928 model 151.


----------



## oldebike55

This Indian has also been I.D'd as a 1928 model 173 Sagamore racer with serial# starting F4,  thanks Leon,
and thanks Brant, for encouraging me to search online, not many of these Blue ones survived, I built this indoors last summer,
to escape 107 deg. temps! the paint was matched with a chip from, the B.B. matches to a PPG  color, 'French racing blue'.


----------



## Barnegatbicycles

1900


----------



## New Mexico Brant

Outstanding original paint Indian bicycle with a sidecar.  The bicycle is ex. Mel Short and was discovered with these "Indian" tires. The side car was added; it originally surfaced at a Carlisle swap meet and was purchased by Thad Pinnex. Mel then purchased it from Thad at that very swap and added the chassis assembly which was missing. The sidecar also retains its original surface paint and decals. Mel feels the sidecar is later than the bicycle.
Current location unknown, possibly Europe.
Photographer: Larkin Little


----------



## Freqman1

New Mexico Brant said:


> Outstanding original paint Indian bicycle with a sidecar.  The bicycle is ex. Mel Short was discovered with these "Indian" tires. The side car was added which originally surfaced at a Carlisle swap and was purchased by Thad Pinnex. Mel then purchased it from Thad at that very swap and added the chassis assembly that was missing. The sidecar also retains its original surface paint and decals. Mel feels the sidecar is later than the bicycle.
> Photographer: Larkin Little
> 
> View attachment 1590131
> 
> View attachment 1590132
> 
> View attachment 1590133



Brant so who owns this now-you?


----------



## TrustRust




----------



## corbettclassics




----------



## hoofhearted

*Magnification of Stem on the 
Indian machine (above) posted
by @corbettclassics .*





*And from the Ethernet .. below .....












*


----------



## New Mexico Brant

Great photo, found on FB.


----------



## rustyjones

Hendee wins the twenty mile race Springfield Mass


----------



## pelletman

Gary Mc said:


> *George M. Hendee in 1883*
> 
> From the December 18, 1902 edition of The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review, page 343.
> 
> View attachment 541569



Looks to me like George rode a Rudge Racer


----------



## pelletman

fordsnake said:


> I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusion that Westfield built early Indians...but for our edification please share your documentation (evidence) or pics of a 1901 Indian to compare? I'd love to have been a fly on the wall watching Augustus Pope and George Hendee battle over infringements and patents. LOL



Pope wasn't in Westfield in 1901, Hartford...


----------



## Bikermaniac

oldebike55 said:


> Indian rider,
> Another Indian motobike project I rescued from ebay, thanks to all of you who helped me make it roadworthy again. Kevinsbikes for the cool wheelset, Jobo for the chainring, and Xcelsior, for a great badge. others also i'm sure.
> I did a patina restoration, the frame /forks came with white and red housepaint that I carefully peeled off easily revealing patches of red with a silver galvanized at bottom, deep red inside the BB, as well. this one had the F prefix serial, also, as a blue track racer i'm working on. I'm still researching years of origin. Late 20s?View attachment 1486154
> 
> It rides solid, but a job to go uphill!
> View attachment 1486155
> 
> View attachment 1486156
> 
> View attachment 1486157
> 
> View attachment 1486159
> 
> View attachment 1486160




Hi, great bike but sorry to be a conveyor of bad news but that frame is not an Indian frame as far as I know. However It's Westfield built frame.
Indian frames came with 2 lugs from 1916 to 1922.  The lugs were: one the top tube were it joins the post tube and other on the lower tube were it joins the post tube. From 1923 on they came with one lug on the lower tube only were it joins the seat post. The space between the top and lower bars should be one inch (1" or very close) were they meet the seat post. Some Columbra frames also share this chacarteristics.
Yours have two lugs together just like my Westifield Motobike or this old Pope (credits to Odball).
This is based in my reserach of Indian bicycles during the years, but If someone has other information, please share it.
Best Regards.


----------



## New Mexico Brant

I have asked different folks when the Indian script badge first appears (bicycle or motorcycle).  No one seems to have a definite answer.  If you have any early literature please post.  This proves it was around in December of 1903:


----------



## Freqman1

New Mexico Brant said:


> I have asked different folks when the Indian script badge first appears (bicycle or motorcycle).  No one seems to have a definite answer.  If you have any early literature please post.  This proves it was around in December of 1903:
> 
> View attachment 1702165



Have you checked with Matt at Wheels Through Time? I think the oldest they have is an '03 but he may have literature. V/r Shawn


----------



## Blue Streak

June 1, 1901 issue of _The Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review_ - *No badge shown.*









No badge shown in 1902 Indian ads.

April 4, 1903 issue of _The Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review_ - *Badge.*












October 24, 1903 issue of _The Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review_ - *Badge*.


 



March 26, 1904 issue of _The Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review_ - Hard to see badges but a great image.


----------



## C M Gerlach

Not Hendee or springfield built, any info on this one is appreciated....heavy repaint so no notable serial numbers yet. there are some plausible theories on the maker and circumstances of this, but not much known......thinking 20's....i mocked it with 28" wheels,....center of crank to top of seat tube is 23". probably was a 28 wheeled bike. Its possibly the original fork, and likely had fenders.


----------



## New Mexico Brant

C M Gerlach said:


> Not Hendee or springfield built, any info on this one is appreciated....heavy repaint so no notable serial numbers yet. there are some plausible theories on the maker and circumstances of this, but not much known......thinking 20's....i mocked it with 28" wheels,....center of crank to top of seat tube is 23". probably was a 28 wheeled bike. Its possibly the original fork, and likely had fenders.
> 
> View attachment 1704471
> 
> View attachment 1704472
> 
> View attachment 1704473
> 
> View attachment 1704474
> 
> View attachment 1704475
> 
> View attachment 1704476
> 
> View attachment 1704477
> 
> View attachment 1704478
> 
> View attachment 1704479
> 
> View attachment 1704480
> 
> View attachment 1704481



Congratulations Chris!  It looks so much better in that last photo with all the later stuff striped off.  Definitely a 28" tired bicycle with the frame sizing out at 23 inches.  Have you found a serial number yet?  I am still sticking with my hypothesis of it being built between 1912-1916 for Canadian export when Indian was building some motorcycles in Toronto.  Looking forward to new information being discovered about it.


----------



## C M Gerlach

Thanks Brant,
Glad I was able to get it. Your idea surely holds water. It is certainly interesting. Hope anyone can chime in with ideas....I'll keep researching.


----------

