# Roadmaster Supreme



## John

Roadmaster Supreme 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOTAL-RARES...529?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0fa221d9


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## Bicycle Belle

Oh my my. 
I'll be watching this one and I'm dying to know where he got it. I'm also very afraid for it's existence knowing who has it. I see it has the incorrect stem (I'm with Phil on that one) and the wrong grips but the rest looks good.
He has it listed as a 1938 but isn't it a 37?
*Edited again as I saw those grips in the catalogue page for the '37 Supreme.


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## bricycle

Go get it Belle!!!!!


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## npence

It could be a 38 the made the bug eye for 2 years. But if it is badged as a Roadmaster it isn't a 38. Only Roadmaster off brands sold them in 38.


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## Bicycle Belle

bricycle said:


> Go get it Belle!!!!!




C'mere so I can smack you! My efforts are focused on the lowly girls!


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## Bicycle Belle

npence said:


> It could be a 38 the made the bug eye for 2 years. But if it is badged as a Roadmaster it isn't a 38. Only Roadmaster off brands sold them in 38.



Ah ok...thanks Nate. I'm still learning.


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## Nickinator

IMO its to much.   

sweet looking bike though.

Nick.


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## Bicycle Belle

Nickinator said:


> IMO its to much.
> 
> sweet looking bike though.
> 
> Nick.




He may be basing the price on what the RMS sold for at the Copake Auction in 2007 Nick. That bike went for $13,000.
http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=9768&weiid=974090&lang=En


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## Nickinator

that may be, but the copake auction one was 100% original and had the bellows neck, this on has the wrong rear fender and the paint patina just doesn't match well enough for me to justify spending 15g on a parted together bike.

though its  a really cool bike just IMO not a good deal for that money and speaking of supremes I just bought this one.








Bicycle Belle said:


> He may be basing the price on what the RMS sold for at the Copake Auction in 2007 Nick. That bike went for $13,000.
> http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=9768&weiid=974090&lang=En


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## Bicycle Belle

Nickinator said:


> that may be, but the copake auction one was 100& original and had the bellows neck, this on has the wrong rear fender and the paint patina just doesn't match well enough for me to justify spending 15g on a parted together bike.
> 
> though its  a really cool bike just IMO not a good deal for that money and speaking of supremes I just bought this one.
> View attachment 106914




You dare to tease us with that single picture?? Please please post some of the whole bike?


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## Nickinator

I will when it arrives 



Bicycle Belle said:


> You dare to tease us with that single picture?? Please please post some of the whole bike?


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## BlueTarp

What he said.


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## RMS37

I assumed this thread would appear as I was gathering my thoughts and typing them out.
The simple fact is that this bike is a 1938 pattern boy’s Supreme that  has had a 1937 tank fitted to it sometime well after it left the  factory. 

I have known this bike since it was sold to Jerry Berg in 1999 and have  pictures of it from that time. Jerry sold the bike to Dan V. and I have  had conversations with both owners about the bike during their  ownerships. It has never been my desire to “out” this bike to the  detriment of any owner but as it is up for sale and the current owner  should know better than to make the claims he is making, I will post the  following for the sake of the bike which can’t speak for itself.  

The 1999 photos I have clearly show a 1938 pattern bike with a 1937 tank  mounted to it. During Jerry’s ownership of the bike, the 1937/38  differentiating parts were gradually removed and replaced with 1937  pattern parts with original patina that does a good job of matching both  the frame and the tank.

Beyond that parts revision, the clear fact is that the tank-surround  pattern darts on the head and top tubes are 1938 pattern, designed to  accentuate the 1938 4-Gill tank (1937 versions, tanked or tank-less, did  not use this pattern and 1938 no-tank boy’s Supremes used a simple  spear point dart pattern.) Taking this a step further, if the tank was  originally fitted to the bike why is the under-tank portion of the  original frame paint scarred as it is and why is it not darker and less  worn from being shielded from the sun and general scuffing. There are  many more points I could list to back up my argument but I think the  heavy ghosting left by the reflector headbadge brings it all home to a  conclusion that would leave any alternate opinion on terra un-firma.

I’m also not sure where Dan has found a list of serial numbers that  would indicate this bike can be read as a 1937 or a 1938. I have the  serial number of this frame in my database and it falls about 75,000  units above the last bike I have recorded as a 1937 production bike and  less than 150 units under my own 1938 boy’s Supreme.

As for the Hub Cycle Supply catalog; I imagine some 1937 Roadmasters  were retailed into 1938 but the picture of 1937 pattern bicycles in this  catalog makes me believe that the Fall/Winter of the catalog may be Fall 1937/Winter 1938 rather than a year later or that the illustration  was not updated for the catalog. If the catalog is indeed from fall  1938/ Winter 1939 the current CWC model would be a standard 1939  straight down tube Supreme or the girl’s equivalent, like the one  recently battered on the Loadstar Express shipping dock.

What ultimately bothers me is that I have shared this information and  more with Dan and, as is too often the case, some collectors seem to  only be shopping for any opinion that matches what they would like to  hear or believe. Once they have built a big enough cloud of doubt in  their own minds they selectively erase what they didn’t like and build a  story like the one featured in the eBay ad. (I think Dan still needs to  work a bit harder on believing his own story so he can write it a bit  more convincingly)

In the end, what Dan has for sale is a nice 1938 boy’s Supreme that 13  years ago was only missing a tank to be correct and complete. Now that  original bike is almost completely lost but it still could be replicated  leaving an unattached 1937 tank to go on an appropriate frame. In the  car world, many significant automobiles (read multimillion dollar  Ferraris) have been reunited with their original matching number motors  after 50 years apart so perhaps someday this frame will be reunited with  its own body parts; I think it is significant enough to deserve that.

While rebuilding the bike into what it was and not just what some  collector wants seems to be a better end for an historic bicycle, I am  not entirely hard core or bent on that outcome. The bike was what it  was, and it is, what it is now. Enjoying the bike with the combination of  parts it now sports, as a tribute to a 1937 Supreme, is fine if that’s  what the owner/new owner wants. What I do believe is that anyone can and  has the right to  replicate a “1937” bicycle in the present, but only  the factory was able to build one in that year. The frame of this bike  will always be a 1938 Roadmaster and it is at best uninformed, or at  worst an intentional lie, to call it otherwise.     ​


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## Bicycle Belle

Thank you Phil.


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## RMS37

npence said:


> It could be a 38 the made the bug eye for 2 years. But if it is badged as a Roadmaster it isn't a 38. Only Roadmaster off brands sold them in 38.




My opinion is that this is a misunderstanding of the reality of the matter, The 1937 pattern Supreme was designed in the spring of 1936 and probably entered production well before the end of that year. Serial numbers lead me to believe that the transition to the 1938 pattern model also occurred before the beginning of calendar year 1938. Considering the serial numbers I have recorded for both models and the year specific equipment that has been found on those bicycle, it is not likely that 1937 pattern bikes were produced after 1937 although it is possible that a few were retailed out of surplus during 1938. I've explained my opinion of the illustration and the dating of the Hub Cycle catalog in the body of my other post, this is perhaps where the rumor of 1938 "Bug Eyes" originated or perhaps it is the result of smoke and mirrors employed by a collector with an agenda.


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## RMS37

Nickinator said:


> that may be, but the copake auction one was 100% original and had the bellows neck




Well.... Just an FYI. The Blue/White 1937 Supreme is the nicest condition original 37 I am aware of but the Bellows stem was an (appropriate, I believe) amendment to the bike. As found at Trexlertown the bike was equipped with the less ornate CWC pattern 37/38 riser stem (the one with the annular ring at the top of the quill.)


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## RMS37

Bicycle Belle said:


> Thank you Phil.



And thank you Belle, 

I hope I can just drop out of this thread now. I shouldn't allow these things to get under my skin but I do. It has been said that collectors are the worst thing any bike has to endure. Sometimes this is true, at least if you value actual history over ego driven revisionism.


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## Freqman1

I have heard from other collectors some less than great things about Dan but this is truly unacceptable for a guy to knowingly lie about a bike just to make a buck. I'm kinda with Nick on this one, even if it was all there and the real deal, $15k would be a little steep. I would think more in the $10-12k range would be more realistic. I have rarely done business with Dan but can guarantee it will never happen again. V/r Shawn


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## 37fleetwood

...and now you know why I have been banned from buying from Dan Venturi for life, I have a tendency to call a dirt bag a dirt bag!
it also goes to show you that great bikes can't be entrusted to collectors, nothing good ever comes of it.


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## Nickinator

I think we are very lucky on CABE to have such knowledgeable folks, and ones that actually participate in discussions. 15k is a LOT of money to pay for something that isn't correct, and more importantly, as advertised (albeit it's a cool bike and all...)

When that seller had a "deluxe" '38 Bluebird for sale, Nick tried pointing out that it wasn't a true/original deluxe and why...was hoping that inaccurate, aka false, listing was a fluke, alas it was apparently not. Buyer beware :eek:

Darcie


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## bicyclebones

*No one knows everthing*

Let me respond by saying I have been in the business a long long time.  I have parted out maybe 10,000 bicycles.  I have seen Schwinns Shelbys Monarks etc that were from the original owner all untouched built in so many different ways and the bicycle gurus will just say they could just not be that way.  NO one knows everything.  These Supremes are extremely rare.  Only  handful are known to exits.  How can anyone know everything about them or have the audacity to say it HAS to be this way or HAS to be that way.  Even if they own all of 3 of them.  Thens of Thousands of Schwinn and Shelby's and Monark's are know to exist and still no one knows everything about them.  Bottom line is I have two catalogs and this bike can be built correctly to match the pictures in the catalog.


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## Bicycle Belle

Well let's see. Parting out 10,000 bicycles doesn't make you an expert on the correctness of said bicycles, it simply means you're good at taking bikes apart to make a profit from them. Second, since Phil Marshall has stated he was there through the transformation of this particular RMS and knows it's history, I would certainly listen to what he has to say about it. Furthermore, he has devoted a good many years studying and documenting the CWC history and would be the first to agree that there are no absolutes in the classic and vintage bicycle world. Full disclosure about a $15,000 bicycle would certainly be in order, wouldn't you agree?


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## Freqman1

bicyclebones said:


> Let me respond by saying I have been in the business a long long time.  I have parted out maybe 10,000 bicycles.  I have seen Schwinns Shelbys Monarks etc that were from the original owner all untouched built in so many different ways and the bicycle gurus will just say they could just not be that way.  NO one knows everything.  These Supremes are extremely rare.  Only  handful are known to exits.  How can anyone know everything about them or have the audacity to say it HAS to be this way or HAS to be that way.  Even if they own all of 3 of them.  Thens of Thousands of Schwinn and Shelby's and Monark's are know to exist and still no one knows everything about them.  Bottom line is I have two catalogs and this bike can be built correctly to match the pictures in the catalog.





The problem here is you were told by an extremely knowledgeable and reputable source (Phil) that this was a '38 with a '37 tank and was parted together. In the interest of full disclosure you should have listed the bike as such rather than trying to portray this as an original '37. Shawn


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## 37fleetwood

bicyclebones said:


> I have parted out maybe 10,000 bicycles




for those of you who wonder why finding a decent original bike is so difficult.

I've heard it said that Dan provides a valuable service, well, you're seeing that service in this auction. another original bike gone, and a cobbled together piece of junk in it's place.
Dan, you might as well do what you usually do and part this one out, there's nothing left to keep together.


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## OldRider

Parting out 10,000 bikes is the last thing I would crow about. For the sake of the almighty dollar...shame on you BicycleBones.


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## vincev

Parting out 10,000 bikes.How could one call themselves a collector??What you do does not fit the definition of the word "collector".I think "opportunist " would be closer.


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## widpanic02

*I'm sorry*

Friend if mine owns two complete bug eye supremes . 15 k for the one you have is the I want to show it off not sell it price.


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## 37fleetwood

widpanic02 said:


> Friend if mine owns two complete bug eye supremes . 15 k for the one you have is the I want to show it off not sell it price.




sadly that's usually the "see I tried to sell it, now I have to part it out" price.
one thing to remember, Dan has himself told me, I don't keep any of them I only sell them.


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## TheSaint

Mr Phil Marshall

Can you share some large format pics of your restored RMS?

I saw all these pics from one of The LeMay Concours, large format pics Bicycles at this Show and your RMS was there but 
there was only a tiny low pixel pic of your red and white bike. 

thanks,
theSaint


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## fordsnake

*Ok what am I missing?*

I have never seen Dan on this site sharing his collection, he’s never claimed he’s a bicycle collector! In the 2 years he’s been a member on this site and has always posted items for sell or procured information.  His eBay store always has hundreds of bike items for sale…plus his eBay handle “Bicyclebones” clearly articulates his business! 

Interesting to dig through the archives and see his welcoming committee; http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...-Bones-Them-Bicycle-Bones&p=122773#post122773 

I’ve purchased from him several times to cobble together many of my bikes and I'm glad he's a great resource; he doesn’t charge for shipping, he expedites all his shipments and he has a “no questions asked” return policy.


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## slick

Nobody has made popcorn yet? What the hell? 

Ok here's the deal. This mens bike as well as a ladies Supreme BOTH were offered for sale on ebay in a package deal auction. We all remember what happened to the girls bike and i have to sadly say that i ended up with 2 of the parts from it well after it was already parted out. These were the last pieces of the puzzle. The pedals of the girls and rack are both in Karla's possesion and the pedals are actually on her 1938 Supreme as we speak so at least they made it back to another girls Supreme bike. The rack is siting 1 foot from my leg right now. 

Now as far as originality goes?????? Well, the rack off the girls bike is a repaint. I will bet my 401k on it. I do professional restoration on cars and bikes and know a repaint when i see it. It was patina'd to match the bike. The paint is single stage done not too long ago. Overspray from the straw to the maroon, lots of dirt that was painted over leaving a rough texture, and just an obvious mess. So as far as the mans bike goes?? Yes the price is a bit high. But the million dollar question is this......Do you part it out now selling the bike minus the tank for one price and tank, badge, and guts as another? Or do you sell it as is to the guy who just wants that bike? Would parting out this bike be a sin considering it never really had that bug eye tank on it? Or does someone buy the whole bike and build 2 bikes out of it? Find the tank for the 37 4-gill with matching paint, and a roller mens 38 and add the bug eye tank? That sounds like a better idea if you ask me? 

As far as dealing with Dan, yes he parts bikes. But he is a standup, no BS guy to deal with. I have bought a few things from him and he stood behind his word on all of them. Shipping was fast also. There are LOTS of other dealers on here. They just stay low key and don't sell on the internet. More of a phone call dealer. Myself, when have i EVER sold anything? Not very often. I'm in this hobby for exactly that. The hobby. And to actually RIDE theses bikes. Ride on!


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## Nickinator

I thought it was pretty obvious, misrepresenting a 15k bicycle you're selling is not going to go unnoticed or unacknowledged around here!! :eek:

Darcie


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

slick said:


> Nobody has made popcorn yet? What the hell?
> 
> Ok here's the deal. This mens bike as well as a ladies Supreme BOTH were offered for sale on ebay in a package deal auction. We all remember what happened to the girls bike and i have to sadly say that i ended up with 2 of the parts from it well after it was already parted out. These were the last pieces of the puzzle. The pedals of the girls and rack are both in Karla's possesion and the pedals are actually on her 1938 Supreme as we speak so at least they made it back to another girls Supreme bike. The rack is siting 1 foot from my leg right now.
> 
> Now as far as originality goes?????? Well, the rack off the girls bike is a repaint. I will bet my 401k on it. I do professional restoration on cars and bikes and know a repaint when i see it. It was patina'd to match the bike. The paint is single stage done not too long ago. Overspray from the straw to the maroon, lots of dirt that was painted over leaving a rough texture, and just an obvious mess. So as far as the mans bike goes?? Yes the price is a bit high. But the million dollar question is this......Do you part it out now selling the bike minus the tank for one price and tank, badge, and guts as another? Or do you sell it as is to the guy who just wants that bike? Would parting out this bike be a sin considering it never really had that bug eye tank on it? Or does someone buy the whole bike and build 2 bikes out of it? Find the tank for the 37 4-gill with matching paint, and a roller mens 38 and add the bug eye tank? That sounds like a better idea if you ask me?
> 
> As far as dealing with Dan, yes he parts bikes. But he is a standup, no BS guy to deal with. I have bought a few things from him and he stood behind his word on all of them. Shipping was fast also. There are LOTS of other dealers on here. They just stay low key and don't sell on the internet. More of a phone call dealer. Myself, when have i EVER sold anything? Not very often. I'm in this hobby for exactly that. The hobby. And to actually RIDE theses bikes. Ride on!




Plus 1.....never had any issues


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## fordsnake

Touche Slick, well said!


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## THE STIG

............


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## 37fleetwood

slick said:


> Nobody has made popcorn yet? What the hell?
> 
> Ok here's the deal. This mens bike as well as a ladies Supreme BOTH were offered for sale on ebay in a package deal auction. We all remember what happened to the girls bike and i have to sadly say that i ended up with 2 of the parts from it well after it was already parted out. These were the last pieces of the puzzle. The pedals of the girls and rack are both in Karla's possesion and the pedals are actually on her 1938 Supreme as we speak so at least they made it back to another girls Supreme bike. The rack is siting 1 foot from my leg right now.
> 
> Now as far as originality goes?????? Well, the rack off the girls bike is a repaint. I will bet my 401k on it. I do professional restoration on cars and bikes and know a repaint when i see it. It was patina'd to match the bike. The paint is single stage done not too long ago. Overspray from the straw to the maroon, lots of dirt that was painted over leaving a rough texture, and just an obvious mess. So as far as the mans bike goes?? Yes the price is a bit high. But the million dollar question is this......Do you part it out now selling the bike minus the tank for one price and tank, badge, and guts as another? Or do you sell it as is to the guy who just wants that bike? Would parting out this bike be a sin considering it never really had that bug eye tank on it? Or does someone buy the whole bike and build 2 bikes out of it? Find the tank for the 37 4-gill with matching paint, and a roller mens 38 and add the bug eye tank? That sounds like a better idea if you ask me?
> 
> As far as dealing with Dan, yes he parts bikes. But he is a standup, no BS guy to deal with. I have bought a few things from him and he stood behind his word on all of them. Shipping was fast also. There are LOTS of other dealers on here. They just stay low key and don't sell on the internet. More of a phone call dealer. Myself, when have i EVER sold anything? Not very often. I'm in this hobby for exactly that. The hobby. And to actually RIDE theses bikes. Ride on!




problem with this bike now is that it has been so swapped around there really isn't more than the frame and a few other pieces correct for a '38. there's nothing to "save" at this point, unless he has the correct fenders, rack and such.
and it's hilarious to hear anyone say sure Dan knowingly mis-represented this bike to be worth Double or triple what the truth makes it to be, but he's a stand up guy. he's not a stand up guy! this bike has been around, many people know it was a very unambiguous 1938 Supreme, no questions. Now he wants to say it may be, or it could be this or that, and then tries to impugn the integrity of one of the most stand-up guys here?
He KNOWS this bike is a '38, it has the ghosting on the frame for the 4 gill tank, and the clear outline of the original headbadge for crap sake! it used to have 1938 paint pattern fenders and stuff, he knows all this stuff! there's no way he doesn't!
in my book these are not the actions of a stand-up guy.


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## Nickinator

I know my mom already commented, but I need to put my 2 cents in here,  I strongly dislike the way these deals are worded.

The evenrude was misrepresented as original when it wasn't, it had a broken fork and was originally blue.

The 38 bluebird misrepresented as a deluxe when it wasn't it was a parted together restored standard.

and this RMS 37-38 misrepresented as a 37 when it was originally a 38.

I don't doubt  Dan is a nice guy. but do your damn homework on bikes and stop trying to be dishonest PEROID

I will not buy from bicyclebones period, after the ladies rms part out I marked him on my blacklist. 



> he doesn’t charge for shipping, he expedites all his shipments and he has a “no questions asked” return policy.




I wonder why..

Nick.


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## JAF/CO

*the first few lines of bicycle bones add on e-bay*

I AM NOT SAYING THIS BIKE IS ORIGINAL. I AM SAYING YOU CAN BUILD AN ORIGINAL CORRECT BIKE BECAUSE ALL THE PARTS HERE ARE ORIGINAL. NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT THESE BIKES THEY ARE WAY TOO RARE TO BE ABLE TO SAY ANYTHING LIKE THEY KNOW IT ALL!  This bike was originally built as a 1938 most likely.  It can be a 1937 or 1938. 

i have been a good friend of dan's for over 15 years or longer and will remain so
i think some of you on here need to read his add on e-bay again *" i am not saying the bike is original"*

bicycle bones is a business not a hobby he buys and sells bicycle parts and whole bicycles for a living new ,old,nos,repop etc
his e bay feed back alone is 35,660 positive and 100% with me.
if any one has comment about this for me and you don't want to post it here
james frazier (209)481-9464 or jfkiller53@aol.com


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## JAF/CO

*read this again maybe you miss under read the add*

I AM NOT SAYING THIS BIKE IS ORIGINAL. I AM SAYING YOU CAN BUILD AN ORIGINAL CORRECT BIKE BECAUSE ALL THE PARTS HERE ARE ORIGINAL. NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT THESE BIKES THEY ARE WAY TOO RARE TO BE ABLE TO SAY ANYTHING LIKE THEY KNOW IT ALL!  This bike was originally built as a 1938 most likely.  It can be a 1937 or 1938. 

there is very little catalogs or info on these bikes out there
and probably more than a few original not restored 37 38 supprems to go by
to meet dead line on orders  for cwc dealers and other retailers who knows what was thorn together
and then what the dealers did to make a sale swap parts ,add extra parts or what ever to make a sale
a whole $40 bucks

here is and add for a 1938 some of you may not of seen


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## JAF/CO

*last title had an error read this again*

I AM NOT SAYING THIS BIKE IS ORIGINAL. I AM SAYING YOU CAN BUILD AN ORIGINAL CORRECT BIKE BECAUSE ALL THE PARTS HERE ARE ORIGINAL. NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT THESE BIKES THEY ARE WAY TOO RARE TO BE ABLE TO SAY ANYTHING LIKE THEY KNOW IT ALL!  This bike was originally built as a 1938 most likely.  It can be a 1937 or 1938. 

how many bikes out there pre war are still just the way they were shipped from the factory

my dad told me about 60 year ago keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut and you will learn more
so for now i will see if he was right !!!


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## widpanic02

*!*

I think he has good stuff but I don't pay retail much less three times retail. I was looking at that milsco seat he has listed and there is no side view of the top of the seat like he is trying to hide that the padding doesn't look right. I have noticed that on his stuff quite frequently that he only shows picks of what he wants you to see. I believe that pogo seat is one of those that the tops don't look right. Just saying. 

Want to add I don't know the guy just my experiences with his listings.

Also , this is a public forum where people should be able to speak out! This is the antique bicycles Angie's list ! Sometimes constructive criticism is a good tool


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## JAF/CO

*???????*

what the hell does this have to do with this tread ????
if you don't like the pics ask for more pic or the price don't buy it
but if you do buy it and you don't like it he will refund your money !!



widpanic02 said:


> I think he has good stuff but I don't pay retail much less three times retail. I was looking at that milsco seat he has listed and there is no side view of the top of the seat like he is trying to hide that the padding doesn't look right. I have noticed that on his stuff quite frequently that he only shows picks of what he wants you to see. I believe that pogo seat is one of those that the tops don't look right. Just saying.
> 
> Want to add I don't know the guy just my experiences with his listings.


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## Bicycle Belle

JAF/CO said:


> I AM NOT SAYING THIS BIKE IS ORIGINAL. I AM SAYING YOU CAN BUILD AN ORIGINAL CORRECT BIKE BECAUSE ALL THE PARTS HERE ARE ORIGINAL. NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT THESE BIKES THEY ARE WAY TOO RARE TO BE ABLE TO SAY ANYTHING LIKE THEY KNOW IT ALL!  This bike was originally built as a 1938 most likely.  It can be a 1937 or 1938.
> 
> how many bikes out there pre war are still just the way they were shipped from the factory
> 
> my dad told me about 60 year ago keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut and you will learn more
> so for now i will see if he was right !!!



He changed his description after this thread appeared Jim. It did not say that at first.


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## widpanic02

*It has everything to do with this thread*

Has everything to do with this thread Jim! This thread might of started out to be about a 15k roadmaster but its not anymore ! Its about the people sharing there views and experiences good and bad on certain issues In the World of antique bicycles.


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## babyjesus

*Dan*

I think Dan is a stand up guy - he's always been one of the most straight forward and best sellers on ebay. He has alot of useful stuff.  He ships outside the US without any questions, and I have never had an issue with anything I ever bought from him and I have certainly never felt like he was lying about something he sold me - I think his auction for this bike is pretty clear in terms of what his claims are - he's not claiming anything about the bike he shouldn't be.  

The age old argument behind all of this is one of 'to part out versus not to part out' and many people might not like the fact he parts out.  Personally I don't even have a position in that argument - some bikes I hate to see broken down and others I don't care, it's personal really but which came first, the chicken of the egg - what I mean is:  there will always be bikes that need parts and there will always be parts for those bikes and they will often come from people who make a living dealing parts. I don't think that is something that we can not accept, it just is and always will be.  Lets just try to step up to the ones we want kept in one piece, when we have the chance.

But going back to the original public hanging, I didn't get the impression he was creating something that isn't by lying.  Because it's ebay a person has to be a little careful because there are plenty of a**h*les out there and it's obviously a good idea sometimes to just say you are not sure of anything in terms of the bike and let people deduce it for themselves and welcome any questions about details of the bike.  If you wrote to Dan and asked if he thought it was a complete untouched orig bike he's not going to say yes is he. Chances are he probably doesn't know for sure and would rather let experts decide for themselves.  Everybody has different information so in the end we can only talk in probabilities, not certainties. 

If I had a bike like that to sell and I knew alot of different things about it, some things which might be opposing, some which are more sure - I'd probably still put it up on ebay and start with a sort of disclaimer, ie:  I'm not sure of anything and I'm not saying anything about said bike but here's what I think, it can be built as a .......etc, if you have any questions please ask.  

Let the experts decide I guess.  I doubt the person who buys it will not have a certain amount of knowledge of his own on that particular model.

When I buy something I read what the seller says but I also make my own assessments and decide for myself based on pictures and perhaps a couple specific questions. 

....and he does offer a return/refund - I don't see what the problem is here.  We are talking about somebody with a huge ebay presence and a hell of alot of good feedback from thousands of happy customers.

Maybe the best thing to do is to just list pictures and not say anything.  As I understood it he says which models he thinks could be asserted with that bike as a starting point and about that he's not wrong.


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## babyjesus

*Also*

....also that bike is stunning for what it is, no matter which way you put it assuming you like the model.

Does anybody have an idea for a sensible offer for this bike?


----------



## widpanic02

*!*

I think Jim's 4 gill brought around $1500 on eBay, plus the stem $800 , plus the tank setup lets just say 3k on the high side an extra $1000 for various parts and rarity. 

$6300 my opinion


----------



## kccomet

not to ruffle any feathers, but i wish we could get away from the name calling and character slams. i dont know bicycle bones, never dealt with him. i know of him. i admire you guys who defend him as i would or wouldnt if i knew him. no one knows every thing about these old bikes, so many years so many different models. i understand the thread he knew about this paticular bike and didnt disclose it. i get it but can we lay off the dirt bags and ass holes. i get the business aspect, but i wouldnt brag about parting out 10,000 bikes to our group..... with respect kccomet


----------



## Freqman1

Some folks are really going to be confused by this thread (or already are) because after Phil posted Dan went back and revised his ad. So if you look at the ad now its more accurate although he could go ahead and tell the whole story of how the bike was pieced together from '37 and '38 parts to present full disclosure. The original ad was misleading at best given he knows the history of the bike. V/r Shawn


----------



## Bicycle Belle

Freqman1 said:


> Some folks are really going to be confused by this thread (or already are) because after Phil posted Dan went back and revised his ad. So if you look at the ad now its more accurate although he could go ahead and tell the whole story of how the bike was pieced together from '37 and '38 parts to present full disclosure. The original ad was misleading at best given he knows the history of the bike. V/r Shawn



Exactly Shawn.


----------



## fordsnake

Yes, he did go back and immediately alter his copy after Phil’s comment…yet the frenzy and pejorative comments continued.


----------



## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Just my two cents... Dan has always been great to deal with. Honestly there are  others here and off that genuinely deserve a crucifixion thread against them and who do much " worse" in the way of this hobby.


----------



## OldRider

fordsnake said:


> Yes, he did go back and immediately alter his copy after Phil’s comment…yet the frenzy and pejorative comments continued.




Do you really and truly think he would have changed his ad if Phil hadn't busted him?


----------



## cyclingday

Besides the he said she said, this bike is still pretty amazing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the fenders are correct for a 38.
Remove the tank and rack, and I think you're back in business to correct this bike.
The big downer, is if the previous owner drilled holes in the frame, for the 37 battery cage.
Finding a 38 four gill tank would be tough, but it has been known to happen.
It's pretty amazing, that a matching paint 37 tank was found, so I can see where the motivation to turn this bike into a 37 came from, but it's too bad that the fact that this bike is a 38 model wasn't embraced in the first place.


----------



## widpanic02

*!*

Who knows? Personally i dont think so but there are others here who say yes. Everyone just needs to realize no ones wrong ! What's that saying ? Opinions are like ass holes everyone's got one.


----------



## fordsnake

It seems that rare bikes have more history or backstories amongst collectors? I can’t imagine someone would be so gullible to buy an expensive bike without first inquiring and doing their homework? Only a handful of collectors have 15 G’s to drop on a bike...and I’m sure they’re privy to caveat emptor? 

Did Dan intentionally withhold information that the bike was cobbled together? Well, he never said the bike was an unmolested survivor! His first and second posting clearly states _“The bike as you see it is built exactly like the one in the 1938 catalog that I have included pictures of in this listing.”_ He also referenced that all of the parts are originals (indeed they are) – no reproductions except for the lenses!

Heck, I was in advertising for over 40 years as a creative director and the one thing I discovered…learn to read between the lines!


----------



## babyjesus

fordsnake said:


> It seems that rare bikes have more history or backstories amongst collectors? I can’t imagine someone would be so gullible to buy an expensive bike without first inquiring and doing their homework? Only a handful of collectors have 15 G’s to drop on a bike...and I’m sure they’re privy to caveat emptor?
> 
> Did Dan intentionally withhold information that the bike was cobbled together? Well, he never said the bike was an unmolested survivor! His first and second posting clearly states _“The bike as you see it is built exactly like the one in the 1938 catalog that I have included pictures of in this listing.”_ He also referenced that all of the parts are originals (indeed they are) – no reproductions except for the lenses!
> 
> Heck, I was in advertising for over 40 years as a creative director and the one thing I discovered…learn to read between the lines!




I totally agree with you.  I never buy something because the seller said so.  It's always a balance of info and my own deduction that leads me to buy something.  There is also no book on the subject that we can all say is gospel - there's very little in the way of written history and fact.  Usually it's ads.  

It's a stunning bike even if the tank was off another bike.  I also don't see anything hugely wrong with upgrading a bike to your preferred model.  So many bikes are built that way. I've upgraded my bikes at the cost of originality.  A 'bug eye' is far more exciting than a 4 Gill - but they are all exciting.  If I just happened to have a matching 'bug eye' tank I'd be very tempted to do exactly the same thing.  It still has very high value in my opinion but then I'm not the kind of person who snubs a bike because it has been touched after it left the factory.  This bike is the closest thing you will get to an orig paint 'buy eye' RMS I am guessing.  It's remarkable, and I guess thats why we are all having this discussion in the first place.


----------



## widpanic02

*I just thought I would add these !*

In case you didn't see these when I posted them a few weeks ago. A friend in greenville's.


----------



## cyclonecoaster.com

*Heres what I see in the pictures of "Dan's RMS" ......*

*.... The front fork has the holes for the dual lights & bracket whereas the "bugeye" version would not have that fork with the holes there ... the rack is also 1937 bugeye deluxe & the reflector came on the 1938 but would be a option from the dealer if you wanted it ..... what appears to be original paint - is really nice in my opinion seeing how there are not many sporting the original paint in either 1937 or 1938 that have surfaced to the general hobby for public knowledge or viewing 

.. Daniel got this on eBay if I remember correctly as a pair - basically got the bike along with a ladies version from another collector the way you see it for the most part & is just trying to flip it / clear some space & find someone that would enjoy this rare bird ... priced high ... probably .. but either way it is available which is rare in itself to anyone who has a big tax return rebate ... & in all my dealing with Daniel he has been a stand up guy who provides parts for the hobby ... don't like that or him then simply get your parts somewhere else ... problem solved 

& IF ANYONE HAS A ORIGINAL PAINT 4 GILL TANK IN THIS COLOR - PM ME - I COULD USE ONE FOR MINE ... Ride Vintage ... Frank*


----------



## hoofhearted

*Thanks for joggin' my noggin' !!!*

HOLY CRAP ... this bicycle goes back to a time when Harry Ward (d. 2002) was alive and buyin' .. sellin' .. and 
tradin' like a man who had just received a Red Bull Enema !!!  Harry and Jerry B. were both lusting for this collage 
of a classic ... don't remember which 'apple-core' badge was on the bicycle head tube to cause the 'ghosting' ... 
BUT ... at the time, your's truly was offered a part of the total package.   

DISCLAIMER ...  Pardon my poor knowledge of CWC ... what I know about their bicycles could be printed in 
large letters on a Standard-Size, Zig-Zag Rolling Paper .. then stuffed into a Chinese Fortune Cookie ... hand-
made in New Jersey at that bakery that employs only down-on-their-luck, former Horse-Racing Jockeys.

The PACKAGE included three items ... 1... A 1937 tankless Supreme boy's bicycle ... (or ... all parties believed it could 
have been a 1938 model, which did not come with a tank) ... 2 ... A nos Tank ... correct for the 1937 model ... AND .. 
3 ... A nos, apple-core badge .. inscribed MOVIE ACE ... this badge was flat, and never formed to be placed on the bicycle.

I was offered the Movie Ace for 2-K .. thought about it .. turned it down as I did not have other CWC apple-core badges, 
at that time.  Whoever originally-owned the package, offered the badge to me.  Jerry Berg ended up buying the package.

............  patric cafaro



.........


----------



## fordsnake

Like I said, "rare bikes have more history and/or backstories amongst collectors."


----------



## babyjesus

So collage or no collage - does anybody think this bikes is worth in the 11-12k range?  Out of interest.  I also could fit my CWC knowledge on one side of a zigzag or rizla and I wouldn't mind expanding that knowledge to at least a king size rolling paper - or even an entire roll of Rips.


----------



## Sped Man

I guess I found the 76 watcher of this listing  Way too expensive! I find it hard to believe it would sell for more than an Elgin Twin Bar 60. That to me is an awesome bike.


----------



## Freqman1

babyjesus said:


> So collage or no collage - does anybody think this bikes is worth in the 11-12k range?  Out of interest.  I also could fit my CWC knowledge on one side of a zigzag or rizla and I wouldn't mind expanding that knowledge to at least a king size rolling paper - or even an entire roll of Rips.




The way I value this bike is as a '38 Four Gill frame and a '37 RMS tank. I'm not seeing $11-12k. You could build a replica '37 RMS if you repainted/restored it but the serial # would be a give. I think if you are going to drop north of $10k wait for a real one. Yea I know this could take while but I think you would be hard pressed to get your money back out of this one at that price. Of course jus my 2c. V/r Shawn


----------



## widpanic02

*!*

These are out there ! I personally have seen more 37's tthat 38 4 gills. People say there is a handful but would be confident saying There is 50 or so out there .


----------



## babyjesus

Freqman1 said:


> The way I value this bike is as a '38 Four Gill frame and a '37 RMS tank. I'm not seeing $11-12k. You could build a replica '37 RMS if you repainted/restored it but the serial # would be a give. I think if you are going to drop north of $10k wait for a real one. Yea I know this could take while but I think you would be hard pressed to get your money back out of this one at that price. Of course jus my 2c. V/r Shawn




Interesting. Being far from and expert I just see an awesome bike - I'd be hard pressed to cut the value in half because it's not how it left the factory but comes from a couple of different models to make this one but then I have many bikes which aren't exactly as how they left the factory so my standards are 'low' or 'less pure' I suppose. I'm usually more concerned that tha parts be real regardless of which bike they came off. The factory original one of these is a dream - I bet you could wait for another to come along but there's almost no chance of it not being either restored or in far worse shape - which brings value back to this one in a sense.  I've seen a handful or restored ones - at which point who knows where the parts came from - this one definitely has an aura worth considering.

However you make a useful point about needing to protect such a huge investment - gotta be able to re sell at cost +shipping.


----------



## widpanic02

*No*

There is no way in hell you would ever get your money back off this bike. I believe even a really nice original one would bring 13-14k. If you bought it for 12k your basically buying the stem and tank for 10k. They are both awesome parts but there market value is more around 4k together . Like I said before Jim's complete 38 brought around 1500 and your not even getting the 4 gill tank so really the frame and other 38 parts are more in the lines of 1k. I added a grand for rarity into that estimate but your still way off. No matter which way you look at it it just doesn't add up.


----------



## fordsnake

"You'll never get your money back" I recalled hearing that from the naysayers when I bought my first house for $22,000. "Your'e living beyond your means" I was told again, when I bought my next house for a $161,000. This was around the same time you could buy a Bluebird for $1,500 or Areocycle for around a $1,000. The good ol'days ( prices ) will never return and someday you young'uns will be saying " I remember when I had an opportunity to buy a Roadmaster Supreme for $15,000


----------



## cyclonecoaster.com

*Do you have any pics of the $1500.- ebay Supreme ??*



widpanic02 said:


> There is no way in hell you would ever get your money back off this bike. I believe even a really nice original one would bring 13-14k. If you bought it for 12k your basically buying the stem and tank for 10k. They are both awesome parts but there market value is more around 4k together . Like I said before Jim's complete 38 brought around 1500 and your not even getting the 4 gill tank so really the frame and other 38 parts are more in the lines of 1k. I added a grand for rarity into that estimate but your still way off. No matter which way you look at it it just doesn't add up.




I missed that one on Jim's 1938 RMS ..... just curious on the bike itself .. thanks ..


----------



## brwstrmgmt

*Parts*

Where the stem ended up....


----------



## widpanic02

*If that ever happens*

Yeah , it's called inflation! Back when you could buy a bluebird for $15oo you could get a pack smokes for a buck! No doubt in 30 or 40 years 15k might be a good deal ,but that 15k will be the equivalent to 5 or 6 k I'm today's market. Lets just hope the US dollar is worth anything in 40 years.


----------



## fordmike65

Not sure whose this was, but one made an appearance at a recent Coasters ride. How I lusted after it...til I found out what one goes for:eek:


----------



## widpanic02

*!*

I love the bug eye but they are way over priced for what you get.


----------



## Boris

That is one majorly COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL bike. Love the colors and patina. Totally BADASS! This is in response to the photos that Fordmike posted.


----------



## bikewhorder

widpanic02 said:


> I love the bug eye but they are way over priced for what you get.




That's just your opinion, why do always seem to be stating your opinion as if they were facts?  It drives me crazy!  While I don't disagree with your value assessment on this bike there are plenty of people out there who can afford to pay whatever if they want it. There aren't enough of these to go around so the exact value is hard to pin down.  I had to get that off my chest sorry.


----------



## fordsnake

brwstrmgmt said:


> Where the stem ended up....
> 
> View attachment 107314




Yeah beautiful, but you know there's a constituency that swears those stems are incorrect...no documented proof – just a conjecture.


----------



## bikewhorder

*I spy with my little eye...*



brwstrmgmt said:


> Where the stem ended up....
> 
> View attachment 107314




some seriously sweet bikes there, from what I can tell from this picture and the one widpanic02 posted these bikes tend to end up in the some pretty amazing collections.


----------



## dfa242

fordmike65 said:


> Not sure whose this was, but...




Wow, I love original paint green bikes anyway but an original green RMS?  Priceless...


----------



## widpanic02

*?*

I'm curious whorder did you even read my post about opinions a few pages back? I don't state it as facts . Also I have been wondering is that you in your photo with your cat? By the way sweet snapshots mike! Love the colors


----------



## bikewhorder

widpanic02 said:


> I'm curious whorder did you even read my post about opinions a few pages back? I don't state it as facts . Also I have been wondering is that you in your photo with your cat? By the way sweet snapshots mike! Love the colors




Ha Ha! No its from awkward pet photos .com  The little avatar doesn't do it justice but here it is a bit bigger. 



I relate to this image though because I have a black and white cat I've nicknamed "my precious one" he's a miserable little creature that hisses at the slightest provocation- just like me.  This is me in real life incase you ever see me at a bike swap or something and want to know who to sucker punch.


----------



## Rustafari

bikewhorder said:


> This is me in real life incase you ever see me at a bike swap or something and want to know who to sucker punch.




Ha! That is a great pic! (you and your dog)  I love it. 

And that greeen Supreme is awesome!


----------



## Freqman1

dfa242 said:


> Wow, I love original paint green bikes anyway but an original green RMS?  Priceless...




I know Marty (cyclingday) has a green one but I don't think that one is his unless he changed a lot of stuff. Here are a few pics of his the last time I saw it. V/r Shawn


----------



## slick

I would say the bike is worth a solid 10k. If i had the dough, i'd drop it on it. How many original paint bikes are there of these? Like 3 with the bug eye tank? Even though this one isn't correct, who will know besides the Cabers on here who read Phils post about the paint scheme. In my opinion, it looks the part and would fit in better as being patina'd then a shiny restored one with who knows what parts under all the fresh primer and paint. 

As far as investment goes, it doesn't matter too much to me because i'm not in the hobby for resale values. The market always fluctuates on everything. My bikes will all go to my kids when i grow old. My 5 year old son has already fallen in love with my Speedline since it's in my bedroom. He said "Dad, i like this bike." I said "Ya? Someday it will be yours son." He says "Dad, i would never sell it because i know it's your favorite." That made me almost shed a tear.


----------



## widpanic02

*!*

I was really going to say! Every time I look at that picture I see jefferey Dahmer and or serial child molester.


----------



## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

widpanic02 said:


> I was really going to say! Every time I look at that picture I see jefferey Dahmer and or serial child molester.




And I was really going to say... Least its still here and not scrap and in one piece respectively with original parts from the time period or that its still og paint and not some unoriginal bastardized color or.... How I wonder how many "authentic all original" bikes you all have that are in fact not... Hmmm ponder ponder.. goddam bike nazi!  ... Oh no that screw is only correct for a 37 cause in 38 they switched to a nickel pan style with 3mm slot not 2.2 mm.. Esh...


----------



## widpanic02

*Dude*

Somebody missed anger management today!


----------



## babyjesus

slick said:


> I would say the bike is worth a solid 10k. If i had the dough, i'd drop it on it. How many original paint bikes are there of these? Like 3 with the bug eye tank? Even though this one isn't correct, who will know besides the Cabers on here who read Phils post about the paint scheme. In my opinion, it looks the part and would fit in better as being patina'd then a shiny restored one with who knows what parts under all the fresh primer and paint.
> 
> As far as investment goes, it doesn't matter too much to me because i'm not in the hobby for resale values. The market always fluctuates on everything. My bikes will all go to my kids when i grow old. My 5 year old son has already fallen in love with my Speedline since it's in my bedroom. He said "Dad, i like this bike." I said "Ya? Someday it will be yours son." He says "Dad, i would never sell it because i know it's your favorite." That made me almost shed a tear.




I agree with you 100% on the bike.  It's not like there's much choice and this bike commands a hell of alot of discussion and furthermore looking at the pictures it has a hell of a presence.  Personally I think bug eyes don't look good restored.  They look like Columbia Fire Arrows or something when they are all shiny - on some days    ....but this bike looks bada$$ and is definitely worth a serious price.


----------



## babyjesus

widpanic02 said:


> I love the bug eye but they are way over priced for what you get.




I feel the same about Aerocycles - you get a tank and in my opinion, some simple boring bits.


----------



## babyjesus

bikewhorder said:


> While I don't disagree with your value assessment on this bike there are plenty of people out there who can afford to pay whatever if they want it. There aren't enough of these to go around so the exact value is hard to pin down.




True - I'm half thinking about scrambling whatever I can get together at short notice and trying to make a reasonable offer on this bike. You are right, it is worth something that reflects how rare it is rather than how much metal you get.  I've always though that if you buy bikes by weight, Schwinns would be the most expensive, around double per kilo of metal than other bikes.  But then there are bikes like this one which are up in the Aerocycle and beyond category where weight doesn't reflect value. It doesn't have a crossbar speedo or a bunch of accessories that really raise the value - just a few very rare and unique parts.

Will another similar bike (ie: not restored) come up for sale in the next 5 years?  ....not rhetorical, genuinely want to know if someone thinks there's a good chance of that happening.


----------



## John

*What is a penny worth?*



 
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/21/rare-143-lincoln-penny-sells-for-1-million/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_collecting


----------



## babyjesus

John said:


> View attachment 107349
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/21/rare-143-lincoln-penny-sells-for-1-million/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_collecting




I read both of those.

I feel a little insecure now.


----------



## prewarbikes4sale

*Penny*



John said:


> View attachment 107349
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/21/rare-143-lincoln-penny-sells-for-1-million/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_collecting




See The "Death Bike" is WAY undervauled!


----------



## bikewhorder

*This is definitley why I collect*



John said:


> View attachment 107349
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/21/rare-143-lincoln-penny-sells-for-1-million/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_collecting



From Wikipedia: _ Freud himself took a more extreme position on the origins of collecting. Not surprisingly, he postulated that all collecting stems from unresolved toilet training conflict. Freud took the stance that the loss of bowel control was a traumatic experience, and the product from the bowels was disgusting and frightening to the child. Therefore the collector is trying to gain back control of their bowels as well as their "possessions" which were long flushed down the toilet._


----------



## fordmike65

bikewhorder said:


> From Wikipedia: _ Freud himself took a more extreme position on the origins of collecting. Not surprisingly, he postulated that all collecting stems from unresolved toilet training conflict. Freud took the stance that the loss of bowel control was a traumatic experience, and the product from the bowels was disgusting and frightening to the child. Therefore the collector is trying to gain back control of their bowels as well as their "possessions" which were long flushed down the toilet._




Well it all makes perfect sense now. I'm selling my bikes & going back to collecting poop. It's gotta be cheaper than bikes.


----------



## Boris

fordmike65 said:


> Well it all makes perfect sense now. I'm selling my bikes & going back to collecting poop. It's gotta be cheaper than bikes.




Talk to Vince, he's full of it. I'm sure he can spare some.


----------



## bikewhorder

Actually the way that Wiki quote is worded _Therefore the collector is trying to gain back control of their bowels as well as their "possessions" which were long flushed down the toilet._ it sounds like collectors have no bowel control and they have flushed their possessions down the toilet.  I think maybe my reason is for collecting is due to a traumatic brain injury.


----------



## chitown

*Asmr*



bikewhorder said:


> I think maybe my reason is for collecting is due to a traumatic brain injury.




There is only one cure, and that is to give me all your bikes. But before we take this drastic step, lets confirm this self diagnosis with a role play exam:

[video=youtube_share;1wY-OwNEp-M]http://youtu.be/1wY-OwNEp-M[/video]


----------



## bikewhorder

*I have brain damage not ASMR- although her voice does turn me on*

Well I was referring to this from the same Wiki entry  _Anderson has found that many compulsive hoarders with brain injury had suffered damage to a region of their brain that regulates cognitive behaviors like decision making, information processing, and organizing behavior—the prefrontal cortex. _  I have all of these issues and I had a concussion from a bicycle accident when I was a child.  Do you think giving you all my bikes would help?


----------



## chitown

bikewhorder said:


> I have all of these issues and I had a concussion from a bicycle accident when I was a child.  Do you think giving you all my bikes would help?





Yes, it would help my even more concussed head than yours. My brain needs them more than your brain. My concussions were mostly on bicycles but plenty of skateboards, backyard boxing with friends, random rocks or metal pipes hurled in the air and such...

What's this _organization_ you speak of? 

...oh and when do you want to drop off the bikes?


----------



## bikewhorder

chitown said:


> ...oh and when do you want to drop off the bikes?




I don't know, I can't decide, its part of my condition you know.  The other day I went to a bookstore to buy a book to help me with decision making but they had a couple different books on the subject and well... I couldn't decide which one to get.


----------



## Freqman1

Speaking of toilets can we now flush this thread!!! You guys crack me up this is kinda like the telephone game--starts off about a bike on Ebay and winds up as a sophomoric psychology thread! V/r Shawn


----------



## bikewhorder

Freqman1 said:


> Speaking of toilets can we now flush this thread!!! You guys crack me up this is kinda like the telephone game--starts off about a bike on Ebay and winds up as a sophomoric psychology thread! V/r Shawn




I think after 10 pages you can talk about whatever you want.  Is it rude to derail threads?  I notice most people don't do it but I didn't get the memo on that.  I have noticed that good many of my most brilliant posts have been permanently deleted, am I suppose to take a hint? 

Let me try to get this back on track.  

I like this Road Master, the color is nice and the tank is cool.  $15,000 is only about half my annual net income so I think I will stop eating and paying my mortgage and hope it is still on Ebay 6 months from now.


----------



## Freqman1

While I enjoy learning here and exchanging ideas there is also a lot of entertainment here as well. Just having fun living the dream. V/r Shawn


----------



## fordsnake

Here's the thing that gets my goat...attached are images of 37 and 38 RMS with cushioned stems. I can't believe they all choose to ignore that their goosenecks are wrong and incorrect!


----------



## Freqman1

We had this discussion some time last year and I thought the general consensus was that these came with the 'bellows' stem? I wonder how many Miss Americas have given up their stem to make a RMS incorrect? V/r Shawn


----------



## bike

*hmmmm*

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle752


----------



## bike

*hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmII*

http://www.ebay.com/itm/classic-bic...que-bikes-including-the-SUPREME-/290955172759


----------



## reginald

*Never had a problem with Dan*

All of my transactions with Dan have been perfect.  He provides a service.  I love this site, but rarely post as I find many comments judgmental. Buy it/don't buy it...supply and demand always meet.  He owns it, he can ask what he wants.  He can part it if he wants.  A lot of "purists" will be bidding on that tank if it comes up for sale.


----------



## Nickinator

the bellows stem, 



Nick.


----------



## bike

*For some reason*



Freqman1 said:


> We had this discussion some time last year and I thought the general consensus was that these came with the 'bellows' stem? I wonder how many Miss Americas have given up their stem to make a RMS incorrect? V/r Shawn




I thought the miss america stem was different in some way- been years since I had one..gray matter death may be clowding things. I have had the soild


----------



## bikewhorder

So then what is the correct application of this stem?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROADMASTER-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## Boris

bikewhorder said:


> So then what is the correct application of this stem?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROADMASTER-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557






1) Rough up skin on forearm with coarse sandpaper 2) Rough up side of stem with same sandpaper. 3) apply Superglue to both forearm and stem. 4) Place stem on forearm immediately and hold in place for one minute.


----------



## bikewhorder

Dave Marko said:


> 1) Rough up skin on forearm with coarse sandpaper 2) Rough up side of stem with same sandpaper. 3) apply Superglue to both forearm and stem. 4) Place stem on forearm immediately and hold in place for one minute.




Hey come on man this stem debate is really important to me, this is no place for jokes!  Didn't you get the "Keep it on Topic" memo either?


----------



## fordsnake

Several months ago some members here wanted to rip me a new silly head, because I stated pertinent information about the Hendee Indian that was contradictory to everything previously known about the Indian bikes. I was challenged to share my evidence. I stepped up to the plate and submitted my documentation; that Westfield had an earlier relationship with Hendee Indians, Hendee went dormant manufacturing bicycles for many years and that Davis Sewing Machines had no relationship with Hendee! 

Yet when I ask others to share their proof to their conjectures…I’m found wrong for asking! Wow, are there double standards?

Yes Shawn, I recall the RMS gooseneck discussion on my thread…I also remember the retort; "There wouldn't be a debate about the stem appearing on CWC Supremes if I hadn't started it…after studying the literature for the bikes I realized the stem was never shown or mentioned in those documents and I came to my conclusions about it." He also stated, “The debate, if there is one, needs to move on to when the cushion stem was actually first produced?” 

I agree with him on this point…there’s no evidence to support the cushioned stem was not produced prior to 1936?  Therefore it is plausible for a RMS to sport a cushioned stem as an aftermarket accessory, a customer's request, or a dealer installed option? 

I'll certainly concede on this matter when printed material of its production year is produced, but until then I'll continue fanning the flame of the probability.


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## fordsnake

If I didn't already have a 38 RMS, I would be all over this...just for the 4 gill tank! http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?45045-F-S-Early-1940-s-Cleveland-Welding-Roadmaster-Deluxe-26-quot-boy-s-balloon-bike


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## cyclingday

The cushioner stem came with my bike, and after one ride, I found out that torsional rigidity is critical for controlling a bicycle properly. The Cushioner stem provides none of that.
 So, whether or not, that model stem is correct or not correct for the 1937 Roadmaster Supreme, into the parts box it went. Since a bellows stem might as well cost $15,000 dollars, because it is just as rare as the bike itself, I went with the tried and true, period correct Wald #3. I've got one of the CWC bulge quill stems, but the Wald #3 won out because it flat out looked better on the bike, and it perfectly mimics the curve of the tank between the top tubes of the frame, is readily available, and was sold in every bike shop in the country in 1937.
I also removed the front bumper and the Tru-Speed, speedometer, because this particular bicycle is so sexy on its own merit, that hanging a bunch of clunky accessories on it, was like a splotchy tattoo on a beautiful girls ass. Your eye is immediately drawn to the blemish of the tattoo, and you don't even see the beauty that lies beneath.
The picture that Shawn posted is the way I got the bike. It was in an unrideable condition, so in the process of servicing up the bike, I took the liberty of making it my own, without removing any of its original character.
Now the bike rides like a dream, and looks like something from the Green Hornets, Super Steath Skunkworks program. 
As for the bike that's for sale, two original paint 1937 Roadmaster Supremes are known to exist. The blue one and the green one. I'm sure there are more out there somewhere, but as for now, that is it. I'm pretty sure the numbers for original paint 38s are pretty similar.
You decide how much a bike that has both feet in the middle is worth. I'd say that there is only one of those known to exist, so whether it is going to be a 38 in 37s clothing or a bonafide 38, it is still a pretty rare bike.
I mean, take a close look at the tires! Those bad boys are worth a grand just by themselves.
Dan, If you decide to part this baby out. Put me down for the badge, battery cage and the tires. Heck! I'm even thinking about those og, Bluebird grips.


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## THE STIG




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## charnleybob

You guys kill me on this site.
What a group of drama queens!

1. Dan is a good guy and can ask, take apart, or do whatever he wants.
2. There are no absolutes, NO absolutes when it comes to these bikes.
3. Literature is a guide, not the set in stone policy some would tell you.
4. Weird bikes exist and were put together out of leftover parts or new just arrived parts. 
5. Complaining about an ad posted here or on EBay makes you sound petty and like a little girl.
Try to enjoy your hobby and not ruin it for the rest of us.


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## Freqman1

charnleybob said:


> You guys kill me on this site.
> What a group of drama queens!
> 
> 1. Dan is a good guy and can ask, take apart, or do whatever he wants.
> 2. There are no absolutes, NO absolutes when it comes to these bikes.
> 3. Literature is a guide, not the set in stone policy some would tell you.
> 4. Weird bikes exist and were put together out of leftover parts or new just arrived parts.
> 5. Complaining about an ad posted here or on EBay makes you sound petty and like a little girl.
> Try to enjoy your hobby and not ruin it for the rest of us.




With all due respect Bob, the original gist of this thread was the  ORIGINAL deceptive ad Dan placed on Ebay about this bike. He changed it almost immediately after Phil's post because he knew he was wrong. The original ad let on like this was an original paint bike with only a few things upgraded or changed. He posted knowing full well the history of the bike and how it was actually pieced together. So if it sounds petty when you call someone out for being dishonest then I'll be a petty mo-fo all day long. Granted this may have been a judgment slip on Dan's part and we all make mistakes but he should have posted honestly in the first place and this wouldn't have dragged on like it has. I myself have bought from Dan and never had a problem. Maybe a lesson learned. V/r Shawn


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## bike

*eventually*

someone will post the EM(?)manufacturing ad for the cushioned stem....


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## vincev




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## Sped Man

Apparently, no one is interested in it at 15K. Maybe he should try $20K.


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## dfa242

Aw jeez - here we go again...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RAREST-Vint...ltDomain_0&hash=item565db65be3#ht_9590wt_1068


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## squeedals

Man....I couldn't afford the shipping well enough the bike........

Anyone have a ball park on value here?? It's a nice survivor.


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## fordmike65

John said:


> Roadmaster Supreme
> http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=330974765529



Since pics were not saved when this bike was up for sale years ago, I thought I'd add them to this thread for future reference.


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## fordmike65

Dbl post


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## Oldbikes

Anyone know who owns it now?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Freqman1

Oldbikes said:


> Anyone know who owns it now?!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




With a correct tank ('38) @John is the owner. V/r Shawn


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## John

It's a rider now


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## John




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## catfish

Very Cool!


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## Oldbikes

Wow, stunning! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mickeyc

Nice Hudson too...…..


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## bikewhorder

cyclingday said:


> I also removed the front bumper and the Tru-Speed, speedometer, because this particular bicycle is so sexy on its own merit, that hanging a bunch of clunky accessories on it, was like a splotchy tattoo on a beautiful girls ass. Your eye is immediately drawn to the blemish of the tattoo, and you don't even see the beauty that lies beneath.
> .




I'm not quite sure I follow your analogy here. Do you have any pictures of beautiful girls asses with splotchy tattoos you can share to better demonstrate what it is you're trying to say?


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## cyclingday

Ok, this one is more of a splotchy  ass with a beautiful tattoo, but I think you get the point.


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