# Military rims and tyres



## US042 (Jul 29, 2017)

Hi,
     I am restoring a G519 Columbia bicycle that I acquired. I looked at the rims and am unsure if they are Military or civilian. The bike has been through a rebuild at some stage but retains lots of the original parts. The drop center rims are difficult to get where I am which make me tend to believe they are the originals which have been subsequently chromed though the spokes are only 0.090" and not .110". The hub is original Eclipse and the tyres are I believe after market remakes of Columbia Superb.

Thanks in advance,
Brett.


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## jkent (Jul 30, 2017)

What is the date code on the hub? Should be a Letter and a number. 
Got any pictures of the whole bike?
I'd be interested in seeing the rest of it.
JKent


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## US042 (Jul 31, 2017)

Hi JKent,
                The attached pictures are what the bike looked like before I started. The date code on the front hub is - '36  IC'


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## Mercian (Jul 31, 2017)

Hi Brett,

Nice bike, with a fair amount to do if you want to restore it to original, but a better start point than some that have been fully restored.

First, the wheels. I think the answer is 'not sure'. It's difficult to tell from photos without a known good wheel alongside. And then you'd be able to figure it for yourself. I'd suggest two things. The holes in the rims for heavy duty spokes are quite large, and really obvious. Here's some photo's of bare G519 rims to show what I mean. This may also help you with the side profile comparison with yours. FWIW, I don't think they are correct, but I would be very happy if you (or anyone else) can prove me wrong.

https://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=240374

Also, the rims are very clean if someone has stripped the paint. If you look inside the rim where the tyre sits, they are unlikely to have cleaned it to the same degree (who, but us, would look?). If there's no trace of green paint there, I would think replacement rims, or a perfectionist.

Next, the Hub dating, The numbers on the front hub are 36 10. This is 36 lots of size 10 spokes, and is correct for your bike. This is one of the harder bits to get, and these hubs are undated. If you have the rear Morrow brake hub, these are dated. Below is a picture of mine. the M2 is a date code, M = 1943, 2 = 2nd quarter (April to June). If original to the bike, then yours would probably be M1 or M2. It should also have 36 10 stamped on it, again, number of spokes, spoke size.





Finally, frame date. MG149018 is probably July or August 1943. If you look on this thread, you can see a list of known frame numbers and dates. 

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/westfield-columbia-g519-frame-numbers.101109/

Probably stamped above your frame number is a letter/number code, either K7 or (more likely) K8. It explains all, and gives examples in the link, but K = 1943, and the number is the month (7 = July, 8 = August). 

Do tell us what date codes you find, this helps others like you.

OK, so how did it get to Australia?

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## 37schwinn (Jul 31, 2017)

Here is one rim for sale here on the cabe. 

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/pre-war-military-rim-heavy-duty-spoke-sized.111596/


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## US042 (Jul 31, 2017)

Hi Adrian
                Many thanks for the information. I will look at the rear hub when I get home today. I think its an original as well but I will confirm it. The rims I suspect have been replaced as the spoke holes appear smaller. Again many thanks for your help.
Regards,
Brett.


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## Mercian (Aug 17, 2017)

Hi Brett,

I was wondering if you'd had the chance to check your rear hub numbers yet? I'm preparing an updated version of the G519 number list, and would like to include this detal if possible.

Thanks for your help.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## US042 (Aug 26, 2017)

Mercian said:


> Hi Brett,
> 
> I was wondering if you'd had the chance to check your rear hub numbers yet? I'm preparing an updated version of the G519 number list, and would like to include this detal if possible.
> 
> ...




Hi Adrian,
                 Sorry for the delay. I have a rear hub with date code M3.


Mercian said:


> Hi Brett,
> 
> I was wondering if you'd had the chance to check your rear hub numbers yet? I'm preparing an updated version of the G519 number list, and would like to include this detal if possible.
> 
> ...





Hi Adrian,
                Sorry about the delay getting back to you. I had a chance to clean back the rear hub and around the frame number. I found the rear hub is marked 'M3' and the frame was marked K 7 above the frame number. I have attached pictures of these although the hub marking is faint. I have been proceeding slowly with this project and am still in the parts collection stage with me still looking for a Persons seat and Torrington 8 pedals. Many thanks for the information and links. They are very interesting indeed. Sorry again.

Regards,
Brett.


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## Mercian (Aug 27, 2017)

Hi Brett,

Firstly, no need to apologise, it's your project and will move at the speed dictated by the availability of parts, time etc. It's not much helped by nosey people like me looking over your shoulder going 'what's that?' (-;: I appreciate the time given to feedback information. Every little helps.

K7, frame assembled July 43, and M3, hub made 3rd Quarter of 43, so a good match. It's almost never possible to say if these are original to each other, but you'd have a heck of a job trying to find the correct M3 dated Morrow if you didn't already have it. As an encouragement, your bike has all the important and difficult parts to find, the rest can be found, even if it means using prewar civilian parts. I suspect the most difficult part now (unless you already have it) is the 'Sweetheart' type chain ring. If you are searching for one of these, be careful, there are a lot of different versions out there. One quick first indicator in looking for a good one is the 'teardrop' shape in the center spandrels. (see Liberator's site, about midway down for an example). 

http://www.theliberator.be/militarybicycles.htm

The Torrington 8's seem to be turning up more often at the moment. You need the ones with the nuts on the shafts for the blocks. The later ones have pressed on spire washers which make them both postwar, and difficult to disassemble.

I hope this helps, thanks again for your details.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## US042 (Aug 27, 2017)

Mercian said:


> Hi Brett,
> 
> Firstly, no need to apologise, it's your project and will move at the speed dictated by the availability of parts, time etc. It's not much helped by nosey people like me looking over your shoulder going 'what's that?' (-;: I appreciate the time given to feedback information. Every little helps.
> 
> ...




Hi Adrian,
                  Again - many thanks for your help. The information you provide is both very interesting and very helpful. I have been able to source a 'Coffin' style chain ring but I don't know if it is in the correct frame number range. Was there a specific periods that each were used?. The Liberator site is of great help - thank you.

Many thanks again,
Brett.


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## Mercian (Aug 27, 2017)

Hi Brett.

If you've located a Coffin ring, I'd use that until you locate a Sweetheart (they seem rarer).

The question as to when they changed from Coffin to Sweetheart is why I started collecting frame numbers in the first place. At the moment, the last known Coffin is about MG120000 (Feb/March 43), and the first Sweetheart MG134000 (March/April 43). Columbia didn't build all G519's in a block of numbers, they are mixed with other bikes, so in this gap there is less than 14000 G519 bikes. I suspect the change is at the end of one contract, and the start of another, and I am trying to figure out the contracts at the moment to see how this and other ideas work. Your bike is later than this change, so I think probably a sweetheart ring.

In Early 1944, MC (Marine) bikes were produced with the Coffin ring, and it seems some very late MG (Army) may have been too (one example known).

Your bike is a straight bar, and these certainly used the Coffin rings earlier (and later), so it won't look out of place, and someone would have to be a true rivet counter to know the difference. Moreover, if a bike was repaired, it's probably more likely that a replacement sprocket would be a Coffin type, no matter what it was originally.

I look forward to the finished bike.

Adrian


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## US042 (Aug 27, 2017)

Mercian said:


> Hi Brett.
> 
> If you've located a Coffin ring, I'd use that until you locate a Sweetheart (they seem rarer).
> 
> ...




Adrian you are a wealth of knowledge! I had suspected they would have been supplied in contract batches but didn't know that there were mixed with other bikes. You would think they would have concentrated on one batch at a time. Do the original manuals shed any light on the contract /serial number relationship?. I know the Jeep manuals have contract information on the front cover so just a thought the Bicycle ones would. 
    I will now keep an eye out for the correct sprocket but it's considerably harder with being so far away.
Many thanks again,
Brett.


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## Mercian (Aug 28, 2017)

Hi Brett,

as the saying goes 'Standing on the shoulders of Giants'. I gained a lot of my knowledge from people on these boards.

Part of my background is also WW2 jeeps (I have a 1941ish Willys MB, and I have no idea how many sets of original data plates) and I did a lot of work on the numbering of jeeps in the US, British and Australian Armies back in the early days of the internet. Incidentally, the first proper WW2 jeep website (and the reason I originally connected to the internet!) was The World War Two Jeep, run from a server called Phaedra by Steve Malikoff in Australia.






Anyway, to your questions. I am working on trying to figure out the contracts. There is a list of contract numbers and the quantities of bikes ordered on them (not from the manuals, but government purchasing figures), but it is not known if this is a complete list (the lists only include contracts over $50,000), or if all of the contracts were fullfilled. Unlike the jeep contract numbers, bicycles don't have 'Hood numbers' and the allocation of frame numbers is more random (Well, Ford GPW numbers can be pretty random too).. The current list of known Columbia G519's is around 70, Huffmans, somewhat less. This is about 0.1% of the bikes contracted to be built, so is making analysis a little difficult, but I do have some conclusions that I hope to publish here shortly.

As an example of what I was saying about the bikes not being built in big blocks, your bike is MG149013, K7. The closest bike I have noted to yours in frame number is W149035, K7, which is a Compax folding bike owned by CABE member 37Schwinn

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1944-columbia-compax-military-model-folding-bicycle.99850/

Living in France, I have similar problems for obtaining parts. Often, because of the time difference, parts I would have liked are posted and sold on CABE whilst I'm still in bed! There is also the problem of not everyone being prepared to ship overseas from the US. It's their decision at the end of the day, and I won't argue it. Luckily (as last weekend) I have some friends from the CABE who are prepared to accept and post on parcels as necessary.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## izee2 (Sep 5, 2017)

Hey Brett,
  If i'm not mistaken this is the correct pattern chainring for your bike. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/shelby-prewar-crank-set.116958/


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