# Please help identify my bike



## Kakeeater (May 9, 2010)

I bought this bike recently and I need some help identifying it. Here's what is known:

Skip link chain
Wooden Rims (not pictured)
Droxel? Leather seat
Serial Number under bottom bracket: 16 99 71

Pictures:

http://neverthemachineforever.com/OldBike1.JPG
http://neverthemachineforever.com/OldBike2.JPG
http://neverthemachineforever.com/OldBike3.JPG
http://neverthemachineforever.com/OldBike4.JPG
http://neverthemachineforever.com/OldBike5.JPG

Any guesses?


----------



## Strings-n-Spokes (May 10, 2010)

I think the serial # is 
1899 71 
maybe the year and production number
The seat probably says Troxel


----------



## MrColumbia (May 10, 2010)

The seat is late teen's through early 20's. Looking at the front fender bracket and frame it could be a Pope or Westfield product. It's realy difficult to tell in this condition.


----------



## RMS37 (May 10, 2010)

I agree with Kake's reading on the serial number, I think the second digit looks more like a 6 with a gouge than an 8. I also doubt your bike is as early as 1899 even if the second digit were to be an 8. Back to MrColumbia, I don't believe that number is in the pattern of any period Westfield number, is it?

Ultimately the serial number will be the best route to correctly identifying the frame but unfortunately very few manufacturing codes have been recognized or decoded at this time. Bicycles built between 1900 and 1934 are often the hardest to identify for year and manufacturer. There were still several manufacturers producing bicycles (many that did not survive into the balloon years) and it was a time of standardization that yielded bicycles that generally differed little from each other. This is especially true in the case of standard diamond frames where there is the least individual design information available to answer these questions. 

The patina on the frame, crank, and other parts makes the assemblage look original but that can be deceiving; many turn of the century bikes were upgraded for a second or third run around the block during the twenties and even a “deep patina” can be created in a dozen plus years of bad storage.

Assuming that all the parts are original from the factory it is unlikely that the bike is older than 1920. Earlier models typically used flatter fenders than the unit on your bike. The saddle is also more typical of the Moto period than the saddles used around the turn-of-the-century. The frame also has integral rear drop stand ears on the dropouts. Drop stands were not used on bikes until about the early to mid teens when rear fenders became common and provided a place to hang a clip for the drop stand. The ears themselves would lead me to believe the frame may be from the 30’s as integral ears were not common on frames before that time.

Again assuming that the parts are original to the frame, the best place to look for more clues will be to disassemble the crank to see if there is any information forged into the center. Posting good pictures of the fork crown, the juncture of tubes at the seat binder and any other close-ups of tubing junctures may also prove these areas to be identical to a known frame someone has. Chain ring patterns are also very useful for manufacturer attribution but the caveat is that they are easily changed out over time and can thus be a false lead or may be a generic third party piece that still does not lead to any single manufacturer. 

I admit to being something of a naysayer when it comes to identifying un-badged pre-balloon bicycles. It seems to me that a wrong answer is no answer at all and that wild guesses are more likely misdirects that hinder rather than serve the purpose of the inquiry. Realistically, there is one correct answer and that is available though research but the research required (short of a windfall) is likely to be beyond the time, or the value-for-time most people are willing to devote to uncovering the answer. 

I’m going over-long but I believe one of the things we can (and should) undertake on this site is to work on a database for serial numbers coupled with detailed pictures of frames for the bicycles from this period. That would provide the best chance to right the cold-case wrongs perpetrated by the headbadge magpies of the past.


----------



## Kakeeater (May 10, 2010)

Thanks for the help, here are some additional pictures:

http://neverthemachineforever.com/OldBike6.JPG
http://neverthemachineforever.com/OldBike7.JPG
http://neverthemachineforever.com/OldBike8.JPG
http://neverthemachineforever.com/OldBike9.JPG

The crank did not have any numbers on it.


----------



## MrColumbia (May 10, 2010)

I agree that dating this to an exact year may be impossible. This type of diamond mens frame was pretty standard by this time. I am still looking at the seat and this is the Troxel style used by Pope/Westfield in the late teens to early 20's. By the mid 20's the mounting hardware on the Troxel seat had changed. As the serial numbers go, there is no charts for this era. The model number on the head badge is the only way to be sure, with that gone it's all just a guess. 
 From what I can see of the front fender it looks to be identical to the deep side ones on my 1921 Chainless. It also has the same seat. Older Columbia's like my 1918 had flatter fenders. I am not saying this means your bike is a Columbia but it puts it in an era.
Good luck in your search. That is half the fun.


----------



## mre straightbar (May 10, 2010)

that looks like its been in a river
where did you get?


----------



## Kakeeater (May 10, 2010)

I bought it from a guy who owned a farm, and when he bought the farm 20 years before, it was sitting in the barn.  It looks rough, but it's mostly superficial.  It just needs some cleaning,  I was thinking of using soda blasting.


----------



## Andrew Gorman (May 10, 2010)

I agree with the 1920's/1930's date.  The pump mounting pegs might be a clue-at least to the last time it was on the road.  Check those old catalogs!


----------



## Kakeeater (May 10, 2010)

This looks almost exactly like my bike, does anybody else agree?  Any more information on the Mead Sentinel?

http://www.nostalgic.net/index.asp?S=arc/pre1920/MeadSentinel.jpg


----------



## MrColumbia (May 11, 2010)

That looks to be the chain ring.


Kakeeater said:


> This looks almost exactly like my bike, does anybody else agree?  Any more information on the Mead Sentinel?
> 
> http://www.nostalgic.net/index.asp?S=arc/pre1920/MeadSentinel.jpg


----------



## RMS37 (May 11, 2010)

If you put that chain ring on a 1970 varsity frame, and took a bad picture it would also look *almost *exactly like these two bikes.

The chain ring pattern is a good clue but a lot of manufacturers purchased crank parts from third party manufacturers. Other than the chain ring I would say that your bike and the Mead Sentinel have little in common. The Mead is probably 20 years earlier than your frame.  

Since you want to know what your bike is/was you need to compare the frame specifics such as the *exact* shape of the stay tubing with a micrometer and little details like the way the tubes ends are attached and finished inside the head tube and bottom bracket. Obviously this is almost impossible without having the two frames physically next to each other. Bad photos in which you can’t even make out the fork crown will be of little real help.

You also need to find bikes that are more contemporary to yours for comparison.  While diamond frames have been built for over 100 years you need to primarily compare your bike with twenties frames if you hope to find a reliable badged match. 

Again, I am not saying this to discourage you from searching for the identity of your frame and finding a bike with what appears to be the same pattern chain ring is helpful but as I said before your bike was obviously originally sold and specifically badged in one way so there is only one correct answer to the question of that was. My analogy is that if you found a Mustang with aftermarket wheels and didn’t know what it was; a picture of a Camaro with the same aftermarket wheels would not provide enough information to accurately restore your car (An arguable exaggeration, but you get the point.) 

I have several frames of unknown manufacture from this period and I always keep my eyes open to find information that might pin down who made them and how they were badges. After 20 plus years I am still looking so patience (or windfall good luck as noted earlier) is required. I have one teens racing frame that I purchased in the late 1980’s that had some very unique features but no badge. I considered selling it many times because with no badge the project was essentially a dead end. Last year a teens racing Indian appeared on eBay with exactly the same frame. I am glad I didn’t let my frame go before the Indian came along. The catch is that Indian bought their frames from a third party and while my frame is undeniably identical, the badge holes are not for an Indian badge. So, I still don’t know what I have, I probably never will, and even if another identical frame turns up with a badge that matches the holes in my frame it will not be proof that my frame was badged identically. I don’t believe it is historically ethical to give up and badge a bike incorrectly but I have considered at times producing some ornate badges in the shape of a question mark with “Manufacturer Unknown” engraved on the face and using them for license to rebuild a forlorn, unbadged old frame to taste.

Good luck with your frame and keep chasing the truth.


----------



## redline1968 (May 13, 2010)

your fork has been repaired. someone welded a nut to it.


----------



## Kakeeater (May 16, 2010)

Here are some more pictures, does anybody know what that hub says?

http://neverthemachineforever.com/wheels.JPG
http://neverthemachineforever.com/hub.JPG


----------

