# ~ ~ ~ 1943 Huffman/Dayton Military Bike Found! ~ ~ ~



## Krakatoa (Apr 6, 2017)

I went to go look at a group of old bikes the other day owned by a really cool guy and ended up buying four bikes. There was this particular multiple layered house painted very rough and well used Dayton badged bike in the group. I just couldn't leave it behind and surprised I was when I got it home and started to look at it more closely.

Here are some pictures of it as found:


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## Dave K (Apr 6, 2017)

Fantastic!!


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## rustjunkie (Apr 6, 2017)

http://www.theliberator.be/militarybicycles.htm


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## Krakatoa (Apr 6, 2017)

Upon closer inspection the first unusual thing I found was the serial #


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## Krakatoa (Apr 6, 2017)

And looking into the serial further I came upon this site:

http://www.bergerwerke.com/historyG519.html





Even more surprising on one of the other bikes I bought were these Torrington bars with a khaki finish, and also this blackout Morrow rear coaster brake!

So I am thinking perhaps the former owner not knowing how these were all related 'migrated' some of the original parts?

In any case I am simply dumbfounded and super excited with this find!


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## Mercian (Apr 7, 2017)

Hi Krakatoa,

As ever, all the excitement happens whilst those of us on this side of the pond snooze. (-:

Here is the list of known Huffman Dayton survivors that I am keeping up on this site:

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/huffman-dayton-g519-frame-numbers.100336/

The 113 number on the fork indicates November 1943. It will be interesting to see if the brake is dated M3, or possibly M4.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## mike j (Apr 7, 2017)

Nice score, Nate. A little forensics goes a long way.


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## catfish (Apr 7, 2017)




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## THE STIG (Apr 7, 2017)

I'll take it


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## tryder (Apr 7, 2017)

Krakatoa said:


> And looking into the serial further I came upon this site:
> 
> http://www.bergerwerke.com/historyG519.html
> 
> ...



They call the finish Olive Drab.  The original hubs likely were this color as well.  Any of the wheels that you got have an Eclipse front barrel hub on it?  If not go back and get it.  You scored.  Congrats!


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## Krakatoa (Apr 7, 2017)

Thanks to all for the responses so far.

Here are some more pictures of the frame & fender with the wheels off. The undersides of the fenders definitely are olive drab, and where the housepaint has flaked off the frame more of the same color. I certainly feel the housepaint should come off, but don't really know how durable the original olive drab paint was. What is your opinion on this Adrian? In my next post I will address the originality of the various parts on the bike.


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## Krakatoa (Apr 7, 2017)

Trying to get the parts that are here figured out to determine what is right and what is not. Wondering on parts like the stem and kickstand that were normally chromed or plated, would these parts in this situation have been just painted unchromed/plated or painted over? Thanks to all for you input.

Nate

Updated:

Frame~ OK
Fork~ OK
Truss Rods~ OK
Crank, chainring~ Correct, but crank is bent, chainring is ok.
Pedals~ Correct Torrington 8, but these are rough, not wood blocks.
Fenders~ OK
Fender braces front~ One is still riveted and appears to have remanants of olive drab paint. Other is chromed, newer with universal slots. Need one front.
Fender braces rear~ One is correct three hole type but reattached with screws, other is universal type replacement, both overpainted heavily. Need one rear.
Guard~ Missing need.
Seat post~ Need straight solid, length?
Seat~ Have this one waiting on further opinions.
Stem~ Found! Torrington 'R' plain finish
Bars~ OK Olive drab Torrington script
Wheels~ Need heavy duty drop center type beveled.
Hubs~ Need front Eclipse barrel type 36 -10, have rear blackout Morrow 1st 1/4 1945 but not hd spokes.
Kickstand~ Probably incorrect. What is correct type?
Fender light~ Missing. Plain Delta winner type.


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## Mercian (Apr 7, 2017)

Tryder is right. Originally, they were painted a flat green colour. That said, the paint doesn't seem to have stuck very well to the hubs, I think because they were Parkerized, a dull grey finish, which survives quite well.

Here are pictures of mine before repainting, showing the Pakerization, and also the M2 (Quarter2, 1943) build date for te hub, and the '36 10' indicating the spoke number (36) and spoke size (10).










When built, the hubs generally predated the main part of the bike by a couple of months, which is why I guess yours would be M3, or M4. That said, wheels were often swapped in service for repair (the Army had loads of bikes, and weren't worried about originality), so it is not unusual to see L(42), M(43) or N(44) dated hubs. The important part really is the '10' spoke size. these are heavy duty spokes specified for the bike. It is easier to find Eclipse hubs smaller smaller size spokes '11' or '12'. If the other Eclipse hub you have is marked '10', there's a very good chance it's the hub it left service with.

The front hubs are easier, in a way. They are marked Eclipse, 36 10, again for spoke number and size. Front hubs are not dated, so easier (!) to find an appropriate one for the bike. Note, they should be parkerized and painted, not chromed like the one below. I chose this picture because the markings show up best.




(Credit: Izee2)

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Mercian (Apr 7, 2017)

Hi Nate,

The paint is pretty durable. I understand that Huffman used a yellow (Zinc Chromate?) primer on at least the frames, whereas Westfield didn't..

In fact,Westfield installed the headbadge before painting, so that it often rusts under there, and you get a paintless Ghost Image when you remove the badge).

The bike by this point would have no chrome on it at all, so any chromed parts are unlikely to be correct.

I'm going to look through the pics now, to see what else I can add.

A+

Adrian


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## Mercian (Apr 7, 2017)

Hi Nate.

Pretty well all the info you need is on this page: Click on the blue links for illustrations.

http://www.bergerwerke.com/historyG519.html

Post. yes, incorrect, but should be a straight solid post, same OD as the clamp ID.

Stem, yes, incorrect. Should be a 'Torrington R'.

Wheels, yes, incorrect. Should be heavy duty 26” x 2 1/8” rims, "drop-center" beveled. Again, unchromed, just painted green. There were NOS ones for sale over the last few years, but these have almost gone, and are now quite expensive.

Saddle, yes, incorrect. Correct frame illustrated here: http://www.bergerwerke.com/prod651seatframe.html

Hubs, date as discussed in my post above.

Can't really tell about the stand at this point.

Pedals should be Torrington 8's, normally with a wood grip. They look close...

Also missing; Grips, Bell, Tool pouch, rear reflector (?), Delta Winner light (with makers name on bottom, on top is post war).

Still, the only Huffman specific part missing is the chain guard, so you have a pretty good start.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Krakatoa (Apr 7, 2017)

Thanks Adrian!

The chromed Morrow is dated P3 36 13, 3rd quarter 1946, but not hd spokes. The blackout finished Morrow is dated O1 36 13, 1st quarter 1945, but also not hd spokes. It is laced into this drop center. 

This is the stem that was holding the Torrington olive drab bars in the other bicycle. It appears to have a raw or perhaps cadnium finish.


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## rustjunkie (Apr 7, 2017)

Mercian said:


> Saddle, yes, incorrect. Correct frame illustrated here: http://www.bergerwerke.com/prod651seatframe.html
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Adrian




I have a question, please: a Mesinger is shown on a Huffman bike in a picture taken from an Army technical manual, why is that saddle/information not correct?





http://www.theliberator.be/militarybicycles.htm


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## partsguy (Apr 7, 2017)

@37fleetwood @hoofhearted


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## tryder (Apr 7, 2017)

Krakatoa said:


> Thanks Adrian!
> 
> The chromed Morrow is dated P3 36 13, 3rd quarter 1946, but not hd spokes. The blackout finished Morrow is dated O1 36 13, 1st quarter 1945, but also not hd spokes. It is laced into this drop center.
> 
> ...



That is a Torrington stem.  Looks correct.


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## Mercian (Apr 7, 2017)

tryder said:


> That is a Torrington stem.  Looks correct.




I agree, just compared it with mine, it is the correct one.


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## Mercian (Apr 7, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> I have a question, please: a Mesinger is shown on a Huffman bike in a picture taken from an Army technical manual, why is that saddle/information not correct?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hi Rustjunkie.

Actually, that's a very fair question. I hadn't noticed the saddle on the Huffman bike illustration before you pointed it out. (Sorry).

The parts book says that the issue saddle is a Persons 1352W in russet brown (saddle stem, incidentally, is 'Straight, 5/8ths Inch by 9 Inch).

For the saddle, I suggest that the parts books are all Westfield, I am not aware of a Huffman one so:

Perhaps the Mesinger saddles were fitted to Huffmans as standard? We would need more original photos, or a Parts Book to help demonstrate that. However, it is interesting that one has appeared with this frame.

Perhaps Mesinger saddles were fitted to some Huffmans and Columbias as a 'Substitute Standard' when the Persons was not available? This happened with other military vehicles, since 'Parts is Parts' and getting a usable item out of the door was important.

Perhaps the early (curved frame) Huffman illustrated is preproduction, and not fitted with the correct saddle? We know that catalogue illustrations of the period did not necessarily match the production bike.

Do Huffman have a history of using Mesinger saddles?

I would welcome any comments or other ideas on this, especially examples of Huffmans with the Mesinger saddle originally fitted.

Thanks,

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## rustjunkie (Apr 7, 2017)

Thanks, Adrian, have you seen the Army Technical manual that the picture I posted above came from?
It would be great if someone could share the entire document.

Here's a US Army Signal Corps picture I found after a very short search. It shows a Huffman with a Mesinger saddle, photo taken 1942:

http://www.theliberator.be/militarybicycles.htm


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## Krakatoa (Apr 7, 2017)

Just found these Torrington 8's with wood blocks in an old for sale thread here. Darn, I'm three years too late!!!

Anyone have another set?


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## bobcycles (Apr 7, 2017)

My 2 cents on war bikes.
I get the whole 'rare for WWII' etc  But these bikes do absolutely nothing for me.
Plane jane 'base models' with some "military only" appointments...
yawn!
I do respect that they were a unique window in bicycle manufacturing during the 'big one'...
but again...
>yawn< to military bikes...
my 2 cents


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## tryder (Apr 7, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> My 2 cents on war bikes.
> I get the whole 'rare for WWII' etc  But these bikes do absolutely nothing for me.
> Plane jane 'base models' with some "military only" appointments...
> yawn!
> ...



Great bikes from a historical perspective and also great riding totally solid downhill bombers.  They track very well on fire roads, trails, etc...


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## ricobike (Apr 7, 2017)

I yawn about a lot of bikes but I generally keep that to myself .


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## 37fleetwood (Apr 7, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> My 2 cents on war bikes.
> I get the whole 'rare for WWII' etc  But these bikes do absolutely nothing for me.
> Plane jane 'base models' with some "military only" appointments...
> yawn!
> ...



sort of like Cantilever Schwinns, they made them for 80 years! double yawn!


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## bobcycles (Apr 7, 2017)

ricobike said:


> I yawn about a lot of bikes but I generally keep that to myself .






37fleetwood said:


> sort of like Cantilever Schwinns, they made them for 80 years! double yawn!




-----not knockin the brand.... or the frame design...  just >yawn<  basic bike that goes for cray $ because
Yippee!!! World War II association.

Maybe if something unique was manufactured for the war effort?  ok...
but these are basic 'el strippo' ballooners with a couple of mods and some drab green paint..

and ....hey ok ....I was a 'war freak' when i was a little kid...played army etc.  i get it....sorta...?


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## Krakatoa (Apr 7, 2017)

Hey guys lets keep this thread going in a positive way. This bike is a piece of real history, it wasn't designed to be flashy but to do an important job. Please keep it to information only.

thanks,

Nate


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## rustjunkie (Apr 7, 2017)

Found another Huffman with OD Mesinger:

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/huffman-serial-number-project.1162/page-5


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## Mercian (Apr 8, 2017)

Hi Rustjunkie,

thanks for starting the search. I would have done, but I'm quite a few hours ahead of you, so our last convo was at Midnight for me, and I was turning into a pumpkin. (-:

I've seen the signal corps photo before, but confess to never having looked at the saddle. So, it knocks one theory out, unless it's the same bike (highly unlikely) the one in the manual is not a 'one off'. So, I'm persuaded that the Mesinger saddle was fitted to Huffmans at least some of the time. Which is great, we are learning new stuff. (-:

The modern photo's are less convincing (though not to be ignored), since the saddle had 70 years to be swapped by that point. It is interesting that both bikes are early curved downtube versions. Nate's is a very late straight tube one. If we can find a straight tube original photo with the mesinger saddle (difficult, given the dearth of original pics of bikes in general, and then having the right angle to see the saddle and chainring) I will be more convinced it happened throughout production. But I'm getting there, especially with Nate's saddle remains. Of course, this could have come from an earlier Huffman, or an entirely other bike, (I don't know how common this type of saddle is), but it seems appropriate at least for an 'as used' bike, and may be appropriate for an 'as made' bike.

Nate, is there any sign of green paint on the saddle frame? Rustjunkie, do you know if these saddle frames were originally chrome? If yes, and this one is not chromed, it indicates war period, either Military or Blackout.

If anyone has original pics of Huffmans or Westfields with either saddle they'd like to add, please do so.

The Huffman image comes from (at least) ORD 7-8 SNL G-519 of July 1949 (though I'm sure there were earlier ones)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Hobbies/MILITARY-BICYCLE-MANUALS/i-9gSW7Sj/0/XL/ORD 7-8 SNL G-519-XL.jpg

(Image from Handcartz).

I don't have an original (pity), but reprints of them can be bought here... http://www.robvanmeel.nl/?q=content...-ord-7-8-snl-g519-1943-1949-poor-quality-55-p

Nate, the manuals are useful (despite the comment 'poor quality', since they go into detail on parts (though, apparently, for Westfield more than Huffman).

Also, the SN picture above illustrates the yellow/green primer used on Huffmans.

Have a Good Weekend,

Adrian

If it is still of interest, I will scan the page early next week.


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## rustjunkie (Apr 8, 2017)

Mercian said:


> The modern photo's are less convincing (though not to be ignored), since the saddle had 70 years to be swapped by that point.
> 
> Nate, is there any sign of green paint on the saddle frame? Rustjunkie, do you know if these saddle frames were originally chrome? If yes, and this one is not chromed, it indicates war period, either Military or Blackout.




Thanks, Adrian, the recent picture is of a bike that belongs to @Craig Johnson. To me the bike and saddle look orig. The leather looks like russet and the chassis is OD. We can't see if it has the tool bag loops though.




 



I've not seen Mesingers of this type with chrome chassis, but chrome plated springs were available. All the chassis I've seen were originally painted black or OD.

There are 2 OD Mesingers saddles here, both have tool bag loops (not common for this saddle from what I've seen), threaded rear spring rods, and are painted yellow (zinc chromate?) primer over bare metal, then OD on top. Note: one saddle shown in the pictures has a later light black spray paint to part of it. The wear tabs are present on this one and are painted OD.















































Here's another Huffman wartime bike that was found with a Mesinger of this type on it:

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=239326&start=45#p1402344


This bike and saddle appear to be a repaint with distressing on the saddle chassis. I can't say for certain but it looks that way to me.


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## Mercian (Apr 8, 2017)

Hi Rustjunkie,

Thanks for the detailed photos and analysis.

Yes, I'm convinced that these saddles were issued for Huffmans, and although I've still not seen enough to be sure they all had them, I think there's enough evidence to say they are appropriate for a Huffman restoration.

I'm away from my references until next week, but I'll have a look through the known survivors to see if there;s any more evidence one way or another.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## johan willaert (Apr 9, 2017)

I disagree on the seat post not being original...

In my findings Columbia seat posts were solid steel and same diameter overall...

Huffman seat posts were tapered tubes, some even slightly curved


http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1942-g519-huffman-bike-project.43231/


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## Mercian (Apr 10, 2017)

Hi Johan,

as you can see from my posts on the saddle above, I had assumed that all the parts listed in the parts book were correct for both makes, it becoming apparent to me later that the listing is for Columbia parts, and so not necessarily correct for functionally identical parts from other suppliers used on the Huffman. 

My mistake, which I should have guessed from my previous experience of the different suppliers of functionally identical parts for Ford and Willys jeeps.

Is there a listing anywhere of known differences?

The frames, certainly.
The mudguards
The saddles
The saddle stems
I read on G503 that the stand can be different, could anyone confirm this?
Anything else?

Thanks,

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## HUFFMANBILL (Apr 10, 2017)

Hello everyone,
Nice find.
First off.  The seat post that came with this bike appears to be correct for the Military Huffman.  It should be a hollow tube that narrows at the top as the one in question.  I have two Huffmans , one of which I know the history from its use in Egypt during WWII until the present, and both use the same seat post as this one.  The straight solid post referred to above by Mercian was used on Columbia Military models and was also smaller in circumference then the Huffman post.  Also, the rims on the Huffman in question ( I call them drop side rims) were in fact used on some Military Huffman's. Again, my Huffman used in Egypt has those types of rims and a picture of my Huffman taken in Egypt during late WWII shows these type drop end rims.  Of course my rims contain 10 gauge WWII spokes.  The mesinger sliding rail seat was used on some very early 1942 Huffmans and an occasional latter dated Huffman.  Those Mesinger  seats came with built in tool bag hanger tabs on the lower seat pan and the one above does not appear to have them and since the Huffman is late 1943 it most likely came with a Persons Military seat.

Regards,
Bill


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## rustjunkie (Apr 10, 2017)

howdy @HUFFMANBILL this bike also shown above is a 1943 from what I gather, and was found with a Mesinger:


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## HUFFMANBILL (Apr 12, 2017)

Like I stated later Huffman's have on occasion shown up with the Mesinger seat.  I am familiar with this particular bike.


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## Krakatoa (Apr 19, 2017)

Little by little....

Think I may have found a source for some correct rims....

Rustjunkie has his beautiful (gulp) saddle I'm going to try and get when I can afford it.

Getting this guard from New Mexico Brant~ Thanks so much!

So I'm still on the hunt for a correct date coded Morrow monster spoke rear cb and Eclipse front hubs!

Then the real fun can begin.....


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## johan willaert (Apr 21, 2017)

FWIW My 1942 Huffman D50546 in original condition was found with a Persons saddle... See attached picture...






Craig Johnson's D51646 ( bike shown above) is slightly higher numbered and came with a Messinger...

So clearly both types were used...


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## Krakatoa (May 7, 2017)

5/8 Update!

Made a pivotal step forward with the project this past Saturday. The bicycle gods heard my prayers, and the heavens opened up....:eek:

Look what was lurking within this old Cycletruck set~ Check out the dating, and the spoke size!

Front 36 10, Rear M4 36 10  = *4th quarter 1943, *an exact match for the bike!

How'd I do guys?

Nate

Still looking for a set of old military NOS correct heavy duty drop centers, please PM me with pictures and prices!


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