# Hawthorne serials?



## akikuro (May 22, 2008)

Does anyone know where I can research Hawthorne serial numbers?
I believe i have a prewar bike but I can be sure.

tks


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## RMS37 (May 22, 2008)

Hawthornes were supplied to Montgomery Ward by various manufacturers. Early prewar balloon bikes seem to have serial numbers not specifically coded to M-W. Later prewar models have serial numbers which may cross manufacturer?s lines and relate to codes specific to M-W. Either way I don?t believe any lists of serial numbers for M-W are readily available.  If you post a picture of the bike with detail shots of the frame (The crank hanger from above and below, rear drop outs and the upper rear fender bridge are useful) the model and year can probably be deduced.


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## akikuro (May 22, 2008)

Here are some pics of the bike...any help is always appreciated.


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## akikuro (May 23, 2008)

a few more pics of the crank


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## RMS37 (May 23, 2008)

Hi, Thanks for posting the photos.

Your Hawthorne is definitely prewar and is one of the models made for Montgomery Ward by Cleveland Welding. That frame style typically dates to 1938-1939 but I think yours is later. 

Hawthorne used three different chain rings on their full size prewar balloon models, the ?snowflake? the ?speed-comet? and the ?torque-star? (my names). The torque-star chain ring didn?t appear until 1940 so if it is original to your bike that would date it to 1940-1942.

As for serial numbers you have plenty to choose from.  I believe the ?H? number is the CWC serial number. It is hard to read, my interpretation being H06958. I have a girl?s CWC Western Flyer in my collection that is H88113. It is a 1941-1942 model. 

From the above evidence I would call your bike a 1941 and guess it was probably made between late 1940 and the end of prewar production sometime in very early 1942. If my assumptions are right, your bike would prove that this style frame remained in production longer than any previous evidence I have seen would suggest. 

The other numbers could be several things. One possibility is the LPD number refers to a police department.  Sometimes stolen or abandoned bikes were re-numbered by police departments before being sold at auction. Some of the other over-stamps may have to do with Montgomery Ward numbering for their record keeping.

As I noted in my first post, earlier CWC numbers seem to follow a more straight-forward pattern than later prewar numbers. If more people will post crank hanger/serial number photos, comparisons will lead to more general knowledge on the subject. 

Your bike looks to be generally original with an accessory rack. I can?t tell from the photo if the broad box pinstripe around the badge is original or an addition. I have not seen this on a Hawthorne but I have a base model CWC Western Flyer that has a similar stripe. In that case it was a less expensive paint treatment than head darts.

Thanks again for the photos

Phil


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## AntonyR (May 23, 2008)

I actually think it is earlier than '41-42. The straight down tube and twin curving top bars are all indications of an earlier frame, most likely '39, 1940 at the latest. That brake arm is the clincher. That is definitely '30s. My '41 Roadmaster is original, with the ND hub having the '40-42 ND script, but with the later straight-edged form, unlike the chrome one with the bulb end like the one pictured. And of course with the exception of the larger letter/number combo punched into the hanger, the other stuff was added later by who knows who. 

But of course, all of this is based on personal experience with similar frames, and since bikes back then were built using current as well as left over parts from previous years, The exact year will remain unknown...


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## 37fleetwood (May 23, 2008)

why don't you guys do like I did and start a CWC serial number list in the retoration tips section here. my Huffman list has been helpful several times since it was started.
Scott


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## RMS37 (May 23, 2008)

Hi Anthony, you bring up some good points and underline some of mine.  The change to N-D hub brake arms wasn?t part of my knowledge so I didn?t pick up on that. The chain ring on the bike doesn?t appear on Hawthornes until the spring-summer 1940 catalog. 

The issue with dating a bike by anything other than the frame is that these parts may have been changed at any time. If the changes were made early on, the overall patina doesn?t prove or disprove originality.  The bike may be sporting an earlier wheel set or a later chainring. 

I agree that the frame in question typically can be dated to 1938-1939. It doesn?t appear after 1939 in Roadmaster consumer catalogs.  The frames of this type I have encountered have all had Dxxxx serial numbers which I associate with 1938. I have a 39-40 style 5-Bar Zep and a 1940 style girl?s Supreme with Exxxx serial numbers.  

As I have posted before, the earliest CWC frames I have found have Zxxxx serial numbers, followed by Axxxx serial numbers.  The A, B, C, and D, and E serial numbers seem by model to fall into a straight forward pattern of alpha-numeric sequencing that would have started in 1935-36 and continued through 1939-40

I have found later prewar frames with F, G, H, and K serial numbers, some of which have additional stampings that seem to point to special stamping for some Hawthorne and Western Flyer production.  I associate these numbers with 1940-1942 production.

The one standout oddball is an All American frame with a serial number A 15251 and an additional stamping (which appears to be factory) of a symbol followed by 138.  In addition this bike is a Western Flyer not a Hawthorne.

I haven?t collected postwar CWC numbers, I believe some postwar numbers duplicate prewar numbers but, other than the earliest postwar production, those bikes are obviously later.

Anyway, my main reason for dating Akikuro?s bike as late as I did was on the basis of the H serial number. While 1941 was the introduction year for the CWC curved down tube, I believe straight down tube models may have continued in production as the basis for low spec. models offered to distributors.

Again, Anthony, thanks for your post; I have noted from your posts that you have a good eye for catching detail, (often ones that I have missed) 

This is a lot about serial numbers. I have studied CWC and serial numbers for some time. Still this is only based on what I have seen and then conclusions the information has led me to. As more people post, my conclusions may be reinforced or prove incorrect.

Phil


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## old hotrod (May 23, 2008)

And just to further mix the CWC pot, you can include mine with the X serial number...


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## AntonyR (May 28, 2008)

RMS37 said:


> Hi Anthony, you bring up some good points and underline some of mine.  The change to N-D hub brake arms wasn?t part of my knowledge so I didn?t pick up on that. The chain ring on the bike doesn?t appear on Hawthornes until the spring-summer 1940 catalog.
> 
> The issue with dating a bike by anything other than the frame is that these parts may have been changed at any time. If the changes were made early on, the overall patina doesn?t prove or disprove originality.  The bike may be sporting an earlier wheel set or a later chainring.
> 
> ...




I don't know where my frames fit into that yet. I have a K series S/N Roadmaster frame that is by all accounts an earlier frame than my E series numbered WF frame, both with curved down-tubes. Actually the only difference between the two bare frames are drop stand ears on the Roadmaster. Besides that the frames are identical. The WF had wooden blocked Torrington pedals, the Roadmaster had a horn tank and a drop stand. From what I can tell, it seems that the frames should only be a year or so apart, with the non eared frame being the later one, but as the CWC date table gets more entries, I suppose we'll either prove or dis-prove this.


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## ejlwheels (May 29, 2008)

*CWC serial numbers*

I agree that someone should start a CWC serial# database here.
I am not a CWC person, otherwise I would volunteer to maintain it.

I have a CWC Cycle Truck with serial # D26917.

There is also one on Nostalgic.net with serial # D24645.
http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle585.htm

I think CWC Cycle Trucks were only made/sold in 1939.
That is consistent with Fxxxxx numbers appearing in about 1940.


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## mazdaflyer (Oct 17, 2015)

RMS37 said:


> Hi Anthony, you bring up some good points and underline some of mine.  The change to N-D hub brake arms wasn?t part of my knowledge so I didn?t pick up on that. The chain ring on the bike doesn?t appear on Hawthornes until the spring-summer 1940 catalog.
> 
> The issue with dating a bike by anything other than the frame is that these parts may have been changed at any time. If the changes were made early on, the overall patina doesn?t prove or disprove originality.  The bike may be sporting an earlier wheel set or a later chainring.
> 
> ...




I picked up this Wards Hawthorne girls bike recently. The Serial No is "C60021" 


 
By your information above it looks to be '37-'38? In looking through the Hawthorne catalog information I'm not sure I see a match. Attaching a few other photos. 

 

 

 

 

 

 




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## cds2323 (Oct 17, 2015)

Unfortunately Phil doesn't post here anymore. His input is really missed.

However, your bike appears to be post war based on some frame details like the curvature of the lower rear stays and the chainring which wasn't available in 37-38 (I think it appeared in 40-41). Also the letter C serial numbers were used again in 1947.

Other details like the rear rack, head badge and head light are also consistent with 1947.


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## mrg (Oct 17, 2015)

Looks mid-late 40's CWC built, post was chain guard mounting.


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## mazdaflyer (Oct 18, 2015)

cds2323 said:


> Unfortunately Phil doesn't post here anymore. His input is really missed.
> 
> However, your bike appears to be post war based on some frame details like the curvature of the lower rear stays and the chainring which wasn't available in 37-38 (I think it appeared in 40-41). Also the letter C serial numbers were used again in 1947.
> 
> Other details like the rear rack, head badge and head light are also consistent with 1947.






mrg said:


> Looks mid-late 40's CWC built, post was chain guard mounting.




Thanks for the input, post war 40's was my original thought based on a couple of CWC Roadmasters I have.


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## aguerra (May 25, 2016)

Hi there guys bought this Zep and its cool but just wanted a little more info . 1st possible year it could be and 2nd would this be the proper chain guard? Thanks 


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## aguerra (May 25, 2016)

aguerra said:


> Hi there guys bought this Zep and its cool but just wanted a little more info . 1st possible year it could be and 2nd would this be the proper chain guard? Thanks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Adamtinkerer (May 28, 2016)

Nice! I don't think it's a factory guard, I think most didn't have one. But, it's definitely from the same era, and available as an aftermarket part.


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## aguerra (May 28, 2016)

It's coming along 








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## Cs nd bikes (Feb 5, 2020)

I have a bike I need help with


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## Freqman1 (Feb 5, 2020)

Cs nd bikes said:


> I have a bike I need help with





Post good pics and we can help. Otherwise it is just guessing. Oh and start your own thread in the appropriate section e.g. "Balloon Tire".  V/r Shawn


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## Cs nd bikes (Feb 5, 2020)




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## Archie Sturmer (Feb 5, 2020)

1948 Snyder-built, from its Excelsior-Hawthorne (EH) plant in Michigan City Indiana.


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## Cs nd bikes (Feb 5, 2020)

Thanks


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## Cs nd bikes (Feb 5, 2020)

What would you value something like this at it will be a total restoration rims will be different and possibly chain and sprocket


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## Freqman1 (Feb 5, 2020)

Cs nd bikes said:


> What would you value something like this at it will be a total restoration rims will be different and possibly chain and sprocket



A total restoration would be when everything is correct to include rims, chain, and chainring. You need to show a pic of the complete bike but I’m guessing the cost of tires will be more than the bike is worth. V/r Shawn


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## Cs nd bikes (Feb 5, 2020)

Ok I’m still in process but won’t be all matching parts main frame forks tank and fenders will be original! I’ll make up the rest will look mint when doneI just got it apart and bead blasted what a lot of work mostly disabling


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## Cs nd bikes (Feb 5, 2020)




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## Freqman1 (Feb 5, 2020)

Cs nd bikes said:


> View attachment 1135743
> 
> View attachment 1135744



The pics you posted before didn’t show much. Looks like you have a fairly complete deluxe model. That said these aren’t extremely valuable and a refurbishment could quickly exceed the finished value. If you intend to sell you are better off keeping everything as original as possible to include paint colors, pattern, and all parts. V/r Shawn


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## Cs nd bikes (Feb 5, 2020)

Right on I’ll update when painted and put back together rear luggage rack has damage but I made it look as best I could also tank was full of holes


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## Freqman1 (Feb 6, 2020)

Just curious are you going to remove the seat/post as well as crank before you paint this? I'd also either look for another rack or just leave this one off. V/r Shawn


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## Cs nd bikes (Feb 6, 2020)

Seat will probably stay on blasted and coated   And spray glued pad on already crank will come out again putting back together before paint to make sure I got everything looking good then disable again and spray it gloss red and gloss white. Note I am a amateur builder. Painter by trade so I figure I can make it look good if nothing else she won’t be quite original but she be beautiful and ride nice I hope


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## Cs nd bikes (Feb 6, 2020)

Before I started


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## piercer_99 (Feb 6, 2020)

maybe you could just start a thread in









						Project Rides
					

Working on a restoration or custom build? This is the place to keep a running topic documenting your project step-by-step.




					thecabe.com


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