# Help with I.D.ing my Elgin?



## necessaryevil (Jun 9, 2008)

I figure someone here might know the year and model of my Elgin. The previous owner thought it was a 33-35 Oriole. Everything appears to be original, tires are later Allstates,grips are for riding(have old cokebotles) There are no signs of the bike ever having a tank, chainguard, or any type of accesories. I am to the point of going insane trying to find info on it, any help is greatly appreciated! I can get specific pics if it helps.


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## RMS37 (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi, I can help with identification.  

The model Elgin you have is listed in the following Sears catalogs; fall-winter 1936-1937, spring-summer 1937, fall-winter 1937-1938. These bikes were sold as base models without tanks, racks, chain guards or lighting and were generally unequipped so you are not missing any factory accessories. 

Otherwise, while nothing looks out of place or character on your bike, a few things may have been changed over the years. The rack you have is period aftermarket and the bike probably left the factory with a cast Torrington Bev-e-lok stem (they break easily) and on whitewall tires. The saddle is probably a couple years newer than the bike. Catalog illustrations show saddles with long square springs and double wire under carriages. The grips look good as Elgins from this period used fingered grips rather than coke bottles.

The bike was made by Westfield Manufacturing (the Columbia people) for Sears.  A similar model, named the Elgin Oriole, was available in the fall-winter 1935-1936 and summer 1936 catalogs. The main difference between earlier Oriole and your bike is the earlier version was equipped with stainless steel ?rain gutter? fenders. 

In the 1936-37 catalog Sears debuted a new Westfield built model with a deep curved down tube and a curved seat mast (essentially a late Robin frame with a lower top tube replacing the tank).

This new model usurped the Oriole moniker leaving the older Moto-Balloon version nameless. 

Your bike is likely from late 1936 as the finned Musselman coaster brake was offered in the 1937 catalog. 

Check your serial number on the bottom bracket, there are likely two sets of numbers, a letter followed by several numbers, and a letter followed by 1 or two numbers.  The longer series is a Westfield serial number. A=1936, B=1937, C=1938, etc. I believe the second series is a year/date code and is two letters ahead of the first. I have an identical bike and the serial numbers on mine are C8 and A141663

Phil


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## necessaryevil (Jun 10, 2008)

I heard you guys were good, but wow! I'm impressed. I don't know the serial # off hand but I think it's a C7. The grips are actually junk ones I had lying around, I purchased it without any and found cokebottles from a member on rat rod bikes. The fenders and rims puzzled me because I've never seen fat fenders and tripple drop razor edges on a low end bike. Like you said I've seen a lot with the stainless gutter fenders. Do you have any pics of your bike? I would love to see it. If you don't mind me asking, what do you think it would be worth in this condition? Would it be worth restoring it or is it better to leave it in "original unrestored" condition?

Thanks so much for your info,you made my day!
Kevin


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## RMS37 (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks, it?s nice to be appreciated and I enjoy being able to help get info to people who are looking for it. 

My impression is that this site has been growing and getting better and more active lately.  Several people here are working on projects that will make a big difference in this hobby. Getting information has been harder than finding bikes but recently several people have been scanning and posting literature on this site and working on serial number projects.

Your bike is among the last of the first wave of balloon bikes and as such has several features that were on the way out when it was actually produced. 

Balloon tires appeared in about 1932 and quickly took over the industry in 1933-1935. The stepped rims were among the first clincher balloon rims available and were used through about 1937.  The stainless rain gutter fenders became popular on single tube bicycles in the early thirties and were the predominant style on early balloons until they were replaced by more streamlined steel fenders in 1935-36.

While the Moto-Balloon frame style was dropped from the Sears catalog by the end of 1938, it is interesting that Westfield manufacturing still cataloged that frame at least as late as 1941.

I have a couple of pictures of my Elgin from our Concours from last summer. I'll try to dig those up and post something. 

Value and Restoration are big topics but I?ll venture the following:

*ABOUT VALUE:*

Your bike is desirable because it has an even, original, un-messed with patina.  That puts in the most active part of the current collectible old bike market.  Moto-Balloons are also relatively hot outside the core hobby market because these bikes look their age and then some. 

Dollar value for your bike depends on several factors. The key markets for old bike sales are eBay, vintage bike swap meets, other swap meets, internet forums, and local collector groups. EBay, for better or worse, defines the wholesale market for collectibles and in that venue I would expect a final sale price in the $150.00 to $260.00 range. If it were my bike I would value it higher than that (but I am notorious for never getting rid of anything).  Private sales and trades within the hobby are often a better route to getting the best value for your bike when you decide to sell or move up market. 

*AND RESTORATION:*

I think in this hobby, at this point in time, your bike is better left un-restored. 

Twenty years ago people would restore a very nice original bike to get that ?Pebble Beach? look. Now-a-days even Peb is inviting original untouched automobiles.  The current trend in almost all collectibles is to leave them alone and very good originals in many cases are more sought after and often bring better money than the same bike restored.  

Today the best candidates for a full restoration are high end bikes that have been substantially pieced together from mismatched parts that are in less than ?5? condition. Even in those cases you have to either enjoy the process or want the end product beyond monetary reason as a true restoration, including chrome and paint done perfectly to original specification, will be more expensive than the dollar value added to the item.

Gaining in popularity are partial restorations and distresstorations.  Most bikes can be upgraded a couple of notches by careful cleaning and replacing any parts that are below the mean condition of the bike with correct parts with better paint or plating.  In some cases a replacement part is restored, then distressed to attain a patina matching the average condition of the bike.

This is a fun hobby and it is good to see new people finding nice bikes and joining this forum. 

Phil


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## necessaryevil (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks Phil for taking time to answer my questions. Can't wait to see pics of your bike if you find them. I will probably disassemble,clean,reassemble and just enjoy it. When I found it I had to have it, paid too much for it, but I love it and doubt I'll ever sell it. I'm guessing since you have so much info on Elgins that you may have a nice collection yourself? Blackhawk? Bluebird? GULL?


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## TheDuke (Jun 10, 2008)

Great info  Phil!!! I only have a pre-war Rollfast and I was intrigued with the Elgin info! Great Job! Any knowledge on Hiawatha's?(see-Hiawatha Help)
L8 EM

p.s.-sorry to go off topic Mr.Evil.....


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## FiftiesKid (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi Everyone!


       Just joined the fun on this forum - the fun part being the learning process since up until the last week or so I have been generally clueless! About the Elgin - I hope to be able to post some pictures of one on ebay that at the moment I am interested in. I am somewhat torn between the odd pre war model like this that hopefully is affordable and a Schwinn Tiger or Corvette or similar from around 1956 - the year I was born - especially a 3 speed. I live in Vancouver, B.C., Canada so if anyone on this forum reads this and perhaps has something for sale that matches what I described - please let me know! I guess I should ask if this Elgin would be worth owning. It was stored in an attic for fifty years apparently.I do not have a link but easy enough to find.Thank you for any help.


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## AntonyR (Apr 19, 2009)

RMS37 said:


> Hi, I can help with identification.
> 
> The model Elgin you have is listed in the following Sears catalogs; fall-winter 1936-1937, spring-summer 1937, fall-winter 1937-1938. These bikes were sold as base models without tanks, racks, chain guards or lighting and were generally unequipped so you are not missing any factory accessories.
> 
> ...



Hey phil,
I have an odd one...
I have a Robin frame, with a 36 stamped on the rear brake side dropstand ear(makes sense as the year), and on the hanger, an E9, then under it C81655. It doesn't seem to mesh with the numbering system you mentioned above. Any ideas?


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## RMS37 (Apr 19, 2009)

Hi Antony, I haven?t noticed numbers stamped on the drops, that?s a new one for me so I?ll have to check my frames. The early Robin frames do not have drop ears so I assume your frame is the later high frame? 

The serial numbers from the crank hanger follow the Westfield/Elgin pattern. In 1938 Westfield produced only about 125,000 frames, C81655 would be a frame produced in 1938 about two thirds of the way through the year. The second serial number generally works out to be a year/month code, the year letter being two higher than the one in the serial code so E9 would equal September 1938.

This would be a very late Robin judging by Catalog offering dates although I have a late frame that is stamped even later for December of 1938


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## AntonyR (Apr 20, 2009)

Thanks Phil. That's interesting- I didn't know Robins were made that late in the '30s. I guess they shortened the seat tube in '37 because there were problems with the frame cracking.. since I don't have front badge mounting holes, does that coincide with '38? Was the '38 badge a glue-on, or was there a badge at all?


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## ColsonTwinbar (Apr 20, 2009)

FiftiesKid, PM sent about a Schwinn Tiger.


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## RMS37 (Apr 20, 2009)

The general consensus is that the Robin frame redesign was due to problems with the long unsupported portion of the seat tube being susceptible to failure. The redesign didn?t change the actual length of the seat tube or size of the frame but raised the top tube/seat stay juncture to brace the seat tube better. The late, high version of the frame is essentially the same frame used on the contemporary Westfield built Oriole and the 38 Bluebird.  

It is interesting that Westfield got sort of pushed out of the Sears catalogs at the end of 1938. There are several Westfield built Elgin models that were produced after that point but many did not make it into the catalog illustrations. It is also possible that Westfield produced the Robin and 38 Bluebird models for a while longer than they appeared in the catalogs and perhaps they were marketed through the stores rather than by catalog.

The Robins all used the same robin?s egg blue Elgin badge that was used on the standard Elgin models so any Robin frame should have badge holes. If there never were badge holes in the head tube then the frame may have originally been from a 1938 Bluebird which used the same frame as the late high frame Robin.


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## AntonyR (Apr 20, 2009)

Yes Phil, you solved it. I thought it was a Robin, but the proof are the badge holes. The only frame that didn't have holes is the Bluebird, but I thought all Bluebirds had the long extended rear dropouts, but the '38 didn't. I'll probably never find that shroud, so I guess it will be my Blue Robin or something. (actually I was thinking of making a Whizzer our of it....eek:


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