# Can early Elgin be dated by serial number?



## bricycle (Nov 10, 2010)

Can early Elgin be dated by serial number? serial: 79290. It has nearly flat rain gutter fenders (very shallow) Model "A" New Departure, has the diagonal Elgin badge without pins or screws showing, front fender braces are rods, rear flat metal. Front rim was 28" all wood with metal sheath where tire rests, Rear was all steel 28".
Thanks...
bri.


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## Archie Sturmer (Apr 13, 2021)

Sounds like an early Sears Elgin, (perhaps with a left-over button-badge).  The 1922 catalog picture looks Davis (near their end); the 1923 catalog looks Excelsior Michigan City.  So, I think my no-letter Elgin is a 1922; and that 1923 began with the letter "A" (perhaps purely coincidental with a maker from Massachusetts).


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## 305Sal (Apr 19, 2021)

Hi All,
I have what I believe to be a 1934 Elgin Falcon bicycle. How can I confirm it by the serial number M117081.
Fork does show the A11 as the frame does.
305Sal


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## SKPC (Apr 20, 2021)

Pics would be nice of your bike...looks like a 35 Westfield style of serial number.








						Westfield Frame Numbers 1933 - 1945 | Classic Balloon Tire Bicycles 1933-1965
					

Dear All,  Please find below Version 1 of a listing of known serial numbers and details of around 200 Westfields built between 1933 and 1945.  This has come from several sources, with various CABE members kindly supplying lists of their own, for which I thank them, as well as my own internet...




					thecabe.com


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## Mercian (Apr 21, 2021)

Hi @305Sal

Thank you for the good, clear serial number pictures.

M117081 A11 is a Westfield frame made in November 1934, and built up into a bicycle before the end of 1934.

I have never seen a production code on the fork before. I guess A11 is also November 1934.

This production code system had only started a few months before (the earliest frame I have recorded is A8, August 1934). Although it continued until 1945 for frames, I suspect they stopped doing it a lot earlier for forks.

Something new for me. (-:

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## 305Sal (Apr 21, 2021)

305Sal said:


> Hi All,
> I have what I believe to be a 1934 Elgin Falcon bicycle. How can I confirm it by the serial number M117081.
> Fork does show the A11 as the frame does.
> 305Sal
> ...





SKPC said:


> Pics would be nice of your bike...looks like a 35 Westfield style of serial number.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Mercian said:


> Hi @305Sal
> 
> Thank you for the good, clear serial number pictures.
> 
> ...



Adrian, 

So it’s not an Elgin ?

305Sal


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## Mercian (Apr 21, 2021)

Hi @305Sal 

Yes, it is an Elgin.

Elgin was the 'house brand' for Sears and Roebuck catalogue company. Sears didn't make bikes, but contracted out to bike manufacturers. In the early to late 1930's the contractor was Westfield. 

I hope this helps explain things, let me know if not.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## 305Sal (Apr 21, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Hi @305Sal
> 
> Yes, it is an Elgin.
> 
> ...





Mercian said:


> Hi @305Sal
> 
> Yes, it is an Elgin.
> 
> ...



Adrian,
Thank you for your clarification.I’ve purchased a couple badges in search of the right on.

305Sal


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## Mercian (Apr 21, 2021)

Hi @305Sal 

It looks like badges 2 or 3 would be most suitable for your bike.

Here is an Elgin Blackhawk, M153734, probably made the same month as your bike, with a red Elgin on a blue background (there are some good photos showing the baadge and other details).









						Sold - '34 Elgin Blackhawk - Price Drop! | Archive (sold)
					

1934 Elgin Blackhawk - Serial#M153734 - This is a great riding bike with the correct parts in working order. Please see photos for condition. Two issues: First is the paint, the bike has been entirely painted over or repainted, even the tank logos and downtube logos are painted over or...




					thecabe.com
				




Best Regards,

Adrian


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## 305Sal (Apr 22, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Hi @305Sal
> 
> It looks like badges 2 or 3 would be most suitable for your bike.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the cool Elgin pictures.

what converts a Falcon to a Blackhawk other than the paint scheme, saddle and stainless steel fenders ?

305Sal


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## bricycle (Apr 22, 2021)

305Sal said:


> Adrian,
> Thank you for your clarification.I’ve purchased a couple badges in search of the right on.
> 
> 305Sal
> ...



Fyi, these badges were used from circa 1919 till 1936(early). earliest(some early) were attached via a hidden brass "button" on rear of badge. A 1923 I had had this style. mid 1936 Elgin changed to the "V" style badge.


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## 305Sal (Apr 22, 2021)

bricycle said:


> Fyi, these badges were used from circa 1919 till 1936(early). earliest(some early) were attached via a hidden brass "button" on rear of badge. A 1923 I had had this style. mid 1936 Elgin changed to the "V" style badge.
> View attachment 1396379



Almost bought a restored one of that badge  a couple years ago.

305Sal


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## Mercian (Apr 22, 2021)

Hi @305Sal 

I'm not a specialist on the small bike model differences, but I understand from reading around that, yes, the difference between a Falcon and Blackhawk were the colour schemes, the Stainless mudguards on the Blackhawk, and the saddle. If there's other more subtle differences, I'm sure someone will mention them.

Like car models, there could also be variations as the model came to an end, where more upmarket parts were used on base models to help sell the last few, and ensure the manufacturer used up all remaining parts in stock.

Here is a conversation about this very subject on this model.









						Elgin Blackhawk or Falcon? | Classic Balloon Tire Bicycles 1933-1965
					

I picked up this bicycle this morning...pretty excited about an unmolested find in original condition, albeit needing some work.  From what is available in the pics... is this a Falcon (painted fork and color would lead me to believe) or a Blackhawk (the stainless steel fenders would lead me...




					thecabe.com
				




Nest Regards,

Adrian


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## Mercian (Apr 23, 2021)

Hi @305Sal 

Could I use the pictures of your serial number on the bottom bracket, and date code on the fork to start a new thread on CABE asking if anyone has seen other examples of this? 

Naturally I would acknowledge you as the source.

Thanks for your help.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## bricycle (Apr 23, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Hi @305Sal
> 
> I'm not a specialist on the small bike model differences, but I understand from reading around that, yes, the difference between a Falcon and Blackhawk were the colour schemes, the Stainless mudguards on the Blackhawk, and the saddle. If there's other more subtle differences, I'm sure someone will mention them.
> 
> ...



Saw an ad before, the chrome fenders and the Black Hawk had more "bells and whistles" on it. Better? tires.


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## 305Sal (Apr 23, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Hi @305Sal
> 
> Could I use the pictures of your serial number on the bottom bracket, and date code on the fork to start a new thread on CABE asking if anyone has seen other examples of this?
> 
> ...



Adrian, 

No worries, I’m on board.

305Sal


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## New Mexico Brant (Apr 24, 2021)

305Sal said:


> Fork does show the A11 as the frame does.
> 305Sal



Sal,
Does your fork steer tube have that hole or is this a picture of your headtube?  Can you post a front view of your bicycle please.  Does it have screw holes or just one larger hole for the badge to mount?  As Adrian said you need the Elgin without the "V" but I am thinking you need the bottlecap variety possibly (without screws).


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## 305Sal (Apr 25, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Sal,
> Does your fork steer tube have that hole or is this a picture of your headtube?  Can you post a front view of your bicycle please.  Does it have screw holes or just one larger hole for the badge to mount?  As Adrian said you need the Elgin without the "V" but I am thinking you need the bottlecap variety possibly (without screws).


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## 305Sal (Apr 25, 2021)

Are you referring to the hole near A11 ? If so, yes that hole is for the hardware needed to hold the truss bracket and mug guard. The hole on the frame for the badge are threaded and the last badge I purchased of the three I have came with correct brass screws.

305Sal


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