# can you help ID this one?



## twowheelfan (Aug 14, 2010)

found it on CL on Long island NY. the guy said it was owned by a local midget car racer for at least 50 years and hung up in his garage. the rims are skinny steel clad post fire (1926) lobdell with sewups(?) probably from the sixties? i want to know what decade the bike is from. the stamped sprocket and two piece cranks leads me to believe that it is early 1900's, its shorter that the iver johnson's that i have by several inches (its 41") the rims are a possible later addition? cause the hub is a D. i think i am missing some hanger bearing dust covers. i have never taken apart two piece cranks so i need some advice from the vets out there. i can't find info on the web. any info would be greatly appreciated. is it a racer that was updated sometime in the past? anyone? it also has a serial number! mean anything to anyone?


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## twowheelfan (Aug 17, 2010)

i tried to give as much info as possible! can anyone give me thier thoughts? information on adjusting the bottom bracket would be a huge help. i'ts a little wobbley and i want to tighten it up and go for a ride! i dont want to break anything in the process. if you guys tell me that this is an american factory built generic bicycle with a mix of parts from different eras and i shouldn't pay too much mind to destroying things then i will. i would just like to get some input from some of the guys out there as to what i have! i haven't posted often, i have been a lurker, but that is because i am learning! cmon? i feel neglected. can i take better pictures? just throw me a bone. if you want to email me directly then do it. twowheelfan@yahoo.com
thanks. 
tim


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## RMS37 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hi, I’m glad you reposted, I saw your first post and meant to dig out my Pierce and hadn’t got to it yet. You definitely have a Pierce and I would say that it is worth the energy to research it further and upgrade it as you can. I have a very similar Buffalo NY Pierce with the same crank set and headset. My rear dropouts are just slightly different from yours and carry the serial number 168566. Interestingly there is also a serial number, EC129, stamped into the bottom bracket. My bike has a “Tried and True” Pierce badge the says “The Pierce Cycle Co. Makers Buffalo, N.Y. U.S.A. below that and separately mounted is a small badge that says “RACER”

The Pierce racing bicycles were promoted by Frank Kramer whose name appeared on the top models which were fitted with British racing cranks and hubs, lesser models were offered with standard proprietary componentry.  The top models were high grade bicycles a cut above most of the boy racer models offered by other companies. 

There is some information on Pierce bicycles available from the Wheelmen and I could get you some pictures of my bike, I haven’t tried to do anything with it so I can’t be of much help with the crank. I assume the drive side arm is removed by undoing the nut and using a puller, then the rest of the assembly would come apart for servicing. As with anything that has been together for years and may require special tools to disassemble I would recommend patience and caution.


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## chitown (Aug 17, 2010)

*Pierce Racer model*

There was a Pierce Racer at the Chicagoland swap and show. This one was a real beauty! Owner had it listed as a 1908 model.

View attachment 11945
View attachment 11946

eta: (got the trophy for pre-20's category)


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## twowheelfan (Aug 18, 2010)

wow! thanks so much for the lead! I would love to see images of your bike! from the research i've done so far i've found this:
https://proteanpaper.com/scart_pict...ic=000000000000001961&part=000000000000004435
it is possible that this is more complete than i thought. from this 1919 ad it says that the Kramer special was available with open bearings for "track work" and different dims (3" down ) as opposed to 2-5/8 for the road bike i will be measuring that soon.
also in the same catalog there is a cross section of the hanger design(small but informative) guess i will be searching for the patent drawing!
the emblem bike company made them up to the '30's sometime so my rims could possibly be original. Sad to hear its not an angola built version, but exciting all the same! the head badge holes are in the right spot for the pierce badge and there are two holes for the racer badge as well. woohoo!


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## twowheelfan (Aug 18, 2010)

thanks so much for the reference images! anyone have closeup images of theirs?


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## twowheelfan (Aug 18, 2010)

thanks so much for the reference images! anyone have closeup images of theirs? i would gladly post more of mine if anyone wants them. how about serial number dating any one have history?


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## ericbaker (Aug 18, 2010)

Edit... haha nm a day late and a dollar short


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## twowheelfan (Aug 18, 2010)

thanks eric. i've seen the split BB before and i think you are right. my bike has the described open bearings and the 3"drop as the kramer special (Good!)
as well as holes in the head stock for the little "racer" badge below the main badge as described by Phil (thanks loads again!) my feeling still is that the wheels are a later addition, maybe to add a coaster brake? i understand that Pierce(Emblem) made bikes into the '30's and this might be one of the later ones, i just need to see a catalog with options from that later era to confirm. it would be real nice if the frame Is actually an earlier Buffalo version.


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## sam (Aug 18, 2010)

i understand that Pierce(Emblem) made bikes into the '30's and this might be one of the later ones
The Emblem factory(there is a photo of it on the internet) closed about 1940 for WW2


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## twowheelfan (Aug 19, 2010)

thanks for the info, where is the image online? i seem to be having difficulty finding it.


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## RMS37 (Aug 19, 2010)

The transfer of the Pierce name from the bicycle company in Buffalo N.Y. to Emblem Manufacturing in Angola N.Y. appears to have happened in the mid to late teens. Emblem built bicycles and motorcycles at the time but after shutting down Motorcycle production in 1925 the bicycle division soldiered on into the late thirties but without much vigor. 

My impression is that, as my bicycle has the small racer badge along with the Buffalo Pierce badge, these similar machines predate the brand move to Angola. The construction itself, especially the crank pattern and the attention to construction and finish of the dropouts also imbues the design and qualities of the earlier firm.

For a look at a later bike check out the one that Rookie sold recently on this site.

Buffalo Pierce bicycles predate my specific interests but the transfer of the Pierce name to Emblem (my favorite of the under-producing balloon manufactures) creates a tie that I am always looking for more information on.

While this topic is fresh I’ll suggest, somewhat tongue in cheek but toward a consequence, that anyone on this site with an interest in either firm (Pierce or Emblem) or their products, band together as a “Friends of Emblem” group to further research into these bicycles and their manufacture and manufacturers.


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## twowheelfan (Aug 19, 2010)

F.O.E. Sounds like a good idea. Rookie's ex-bike is really nice!   Are there any specific High res. images of my bike that you would like me to take for you? i will get full the serial number for you, when i can. i now need to find and buy the headbadges! i have some research to do! Kramer lived in east orange N.J. and i was wondereing if there were serial numbers listed for the bikes he used. maybe, if they were production models, then that would get us a loose serial number/year date pattern.(?)


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## Bikephreak (Aug 20, 2010)

Nice find! I still regret not buying a Pierce I found in Seattle about 10 years ago. That one was from the 1900 decade. It was hanging in "The Old Technology Shop" on Aurora near Green Lake. The proprietor was asking $400 for the bike. It needed a bit of work, but still had the Pierce transfer on the top tube! Hopefully that bike is in someone's collection...


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## twowheelfan (Aug 20, 2010)

do you have images? 
found a friend on the wheelman who has a racer as well. his is beautiful! i am very excited.
http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/otis/pierce/
i now think, as i had earlier that the wheels were replaced with non race ones to gain a coaster brake sometime after 1926 but the frame set is a buffalo version which dates it to around 1916 at the latest. anyone have a buffalo badge and racer badge that they want to sell?
i would possibly look into having some made if i can get someone who has one that could be used for patterns.


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## twowheelfan (Sep 24, 2010)

so.. i purchased a headbadge for this bike and i need the screws to attach. does any have advice on what they would be? brass hardware store items? or something more exotic?
also, the screw holes are filled with what i think are the previous screws. someone cut the badges off i guess. can i use a small drift to punch them through? or is the brass too hard. will i damage the threads tapped into the head? thanks and i hope to hear from you guys.
Tim


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## pelletman (Sep 24, 2010)

they probably should be drilled and easy outed..


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## twowheelfan (Sep 25, 2010)

easy out that is small enough i can't find.


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## pelletman (Sep 25, 2010)

Small SHARP punch and turn it by tapping?


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## twowheelfan (Sep 25, 2010)

thats what i think i'm gonna try.
someone suggested drilling and lightly tapping in a small torx bit and turning it like that.
they are so small!


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## pelletman (Sep 25, 2010)

I like these:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00952315000P?mv=rr&i_cntr=1285462926815  prob too big though.  SOak them good with PB


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## volksboy57 (Jan 16, 2014)

*reviving an old thread*

You wanted to see other pierce bicycles, so here is a link to the bike I just picked up: http://www.flickr.com/photos/39956471@N06/

I thought that the hardware on my chainring was mismatched, but it is the same as your bike!! So weird that they have two square nuts and a hex nut... from the factory!


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## corbettclassics (Jan 16, 2014)

Should look like this on the head badge tube ..
Here's an early and later version


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## bike (Jan 16, 2014)

*over 10 years ago*



RMS37 said:


> ...
> 
> The Pierce racing bicycles were promoted by Frank Kramer whose name appeared on the top models which were fitted with British racing cranks and hubs, lesser models were offered with standard proprietary componentry.  The top models were high grade bicycles a cut above most of the boy racer models offered by other companies.
> 
> ...


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## chitown (Jan 16, 2014)

another variation here:


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## volksboy57 (Jan 16, 2014)

*wow*

so much information! I dont think my bike is a racer, but rather a two piece roadster model. Especially because of the fenders, handlebars and pedals. Because of the repaint, I dont see any holes in the head tube to indicate a badge or even a little extra badge. The holes may have been filled in when the frame repair abomination happened.


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## twowheelfan (Jan 16, 2014)

thanks for posting pics! congrats on your new find! 
I think that you are correct in your assumption regarding racer vs. roadster. you do have some great parts! the brake arm/rear wheel is defiantly original. the seat clamp is cool as well! does it have a patent date? I think I see 1926 on it. the sprocket seem like its cast and not stamped which means higher quality. I do, however think that both of our bikes have, at one time in their long lives, lost hardware. the bolts/nuts on the sprocket are a hardware store fix, im sure of it. other differences between the racer(mine) and yours is the subtle bend on the rear fork at the axle. the bend on mine is described as a design to keep everything level and constant if adjustments need to be made on the track. Also the bottom bracket bearings on mine do not have dust covers (explained in the catalog as an advantage on the track for ease of oiling instead of grease that I assume would slow you down. all this said, my "track" model was not a true track bike of high level campaign quality, definitely better quality than an average road bike of the time, but still mass produced. Mine is a Frank Kramer Special. I have heard about the little badge on the front that says "special" as well as" Special Racer"also one that just says "racer" all of which I have never seen for sale anywhere. I would very much like to have one. Also, if the date on your clamp is indeed original to the bike then yours was made in Angola and not Buffalo. I do not have anything on my bike to definitely date it. I would very much like to attribute mine to the buffalo location, but I may never know. all the serial numbers I have found are in all sorts of locations and no order or sequence has been discerned yet. I would very much like to get more info! thanks!


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## twowheelfan (Jan 16, 2014)

Kudos Volksboy! for researching the website! there is tons of research and information within the threads of these pages. good luck on whatever you decide to do with the cycle!


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## twowheelfan (Jan 18, 2014)

*over ten years ago?*



bike said:


> RMS37 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


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