# Sloooow brakes! new departure model D



## slick (Jun 24, 2010)

I just got a new/old bike and the brakes stop extra slow! I believe the bike is a 1933-34 Colson Flyer motobike. I will post pictures tomorrow. I had to adjust the bearings on the rear because they were loose and the wheel was flopping around. I repacked them, reassembled and it stops slow. Don't know how it stopped prior because I didn't ride it since the bearings were too loose. Are the washer plates inside the hub supposed to be greased up or are they to stay dry to cause friction?  Been awhile since I've worked on  a bike so bear with me. The crank sometimes also tends to make almost half a revolution before the brakes engage? Did I put something together wrong or does it just need to be rebuilt? I'm riding it saturday to a woody car show in santa cruz on the pier weather it stops or not! Thanks,Chris


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## OldRider (Jun 24, 2010)

Good question! I have the same issue with 2 of my coaster brake hubs. I practically have to stand on the pedal to get it to stop. One is a Perry hub and the other is unmarked. Maybe someone out there can help us both!


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## chriscokid (Jun 24, 2010)

i don't think there supposed to be greased  just oiled sounds like the Transfer Spring might be wore out or the hub needs a good rebuild and cleaning


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## AntonyR (Jul 3, 2010)

chriscokid said:


> i don't think there supposed to be greased  just oiled sounds like the Transfer Spring might be wore out or the hub needs a good rebuild and cleaning



Transfer springs dont wear out. They are either whole or broken, which means free-wheeling, no brakes period. Since it was loose, you should probably take the hub apart and see that someone before you either didn't line up all of the locator tabs on the disc set, leaving maybe the outermost one binding. This would cause the hub to not be completely seated against the bearings, and essentially screwing with everything. Regardless, if it was ridden loose, something probably wore badly and needs to be replaced. As long as there's 20 weight oil in the hub, that's enough to keep everything working as it should. You might just have a seriously worn set of discs.


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## 53Phantom (Jul 3, 2010)

I dissagree. The Model D hub should be packed with grease, not oil. If you will remove each of the brake disc and scuff both sides of the disc on a sheet of fine sandpaper (600 grit or higher) and then liberally apply a good bearing grease, you will be amazed at how much better the brakes work. You cannot over grease a ND hub.


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## 53Phantom (Jul 3, 2010)

Also, if the crank has to move 1/2 revolution before the brake engages and the rear hub bearing is adjusted properly, you may need to add another brake disc or 2 to take up the slack. I had to add one disc to one of mine . Bicyclebone on Ebay sells a new heavy duty brake disc kit that you may be interested in.


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## OldRider (Jul 3, 2010)

Thanks for all the info guys, looks like I'm gonna try disasembling my first rear hub!


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## AntonyR (Jul 4, 2010)

53Phantom said:


> I dissagree. The Model D hub should be packed with grease, not oil. If you will remove each of the brake disc and scuff both sides of the disc on a sheet of fine sandpaper (600 grit or higher) and then liberally apply a good bearing grease, you will be amazed at how much better the brakes work. You cannot over grease a ND hub.



Sorry. Wrong. Bearing grease doesn't flow. It also dries out and stops lubricating, whereas the correct oil will slowly seep(not so much that you will have it all over the rims/spokes) out, then you top it up periodically through the filler- it's not there for looks. Oil seeks places to lube, grease stays put. Grease will also create drag, compared to oil. As long as you don't overheat the discs continually by "riding" the brake or ride in a very hilly area, you will probably never need to service a hub with oil maintenance. The people that built the hub say 20wt. Should I keep going? 
Disc maintenance: Sanding removes material, creating more play in the hub- forget about it. If you can see/feel grooves in the discs, replace them. They're easy to find.


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## 53Phantom (Jul 4, 2010)

Well, we can just agree to dissagree however, every New Departure coaster brake hub maintence literature says to pack it heavily with bearing grease. Check out the Sheldon Brown website or any number of YouTube videos.  Also, knocking the glaze off of the brake disc will not remove enough material to cause excesssive slack. It is part of the proper maintainace when doing a service on these hubs. There are probably a number of ways to clean and lube these hubs. This is the way I personally prefer to do it.


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## Boris (Jul 3, 2012)

*Lubricating rear hub*

I was revisiting this issue today and found this on the ratrod site. Posting here, because that's where the question first came up.


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## Bicycle Belle (Jul 3, 2012)

It has been nearly two years to the day since the last post on this thread. 
Is it possible that Boris is running out of things to say?


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## scrubbinrims (Jul 3, 2012)

Not taking sides here, but AntonyR used to contribute to the CABE mightily with very good information.
It's a shame he's not around anymore.

That's a great reference Dave Marko.

Chris


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## vincev (Jul 3, 2012)

Belle,we should only be that lucky.will the oceans run out of water,will pigs fly,will hell freeze over????


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## Boris (Jul 3, 2012)

Bicycle Belle said:


> It has been nearly two years to the day since the last post on this thread.
> Is it possible that Boris is running out of things to say?




Yes Miss Smartypants, I'm running out of things to say.


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## Boris (Jul 3, 2012)

scrubbinrims said:


> Not taking sides here, but AntonyR used to contribute to the CABE mightily with very good information.
> It's a shame he's not around anymore.
> 
> That's a great reference Dave Marko.
> ...




Yeah, I thought it answered the difference of opinion definitively. It certainly answered my question as to how to properly lubricate the rear hub.


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## abe lugo (Jul 3, 2012)

If it helps the disc stack should be about 0.75" or real close to it.


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## chucksoldbikes (Jul 3, 2012)

*hello*

thank u  dave  for   cclleeaarriinngg  that   up chucksoldbikes


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## SirMike1983 (Jul 3, 2012)

If it's the hypoid oil I'm thinking of, then it's neither 20 weight (3 speed) nor grease, but a heavy 80 weight oil. So it's somewhere in between I guess. On the last one I did I used thinned lithium grease. I don't like axle grease because it gets too gummy sticky. I found that using just oil caused a lot of mess by seeping around the bearing grease and then doing a runoff from the sides of the hub (I think that was 30 or 40 weight). I may try seeking out some of this heavy weight hypoid oil for the next project I do. I will say I've not been unhappy with the thinned lithium grease. It doesn't seem to gum up or dry out easily at all, and I don't get oil seepage around the bearings.


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## AntonyR (Jul 4, 2012)

scrubbinrims said:


> Not taking sides here, but AntonyR used to contribute to the CABE mightily with very good information.
> It's a shame he's not around anymore.
> 
> Chris



(from beyond the grave)
Hey! I'm not gone, just spending more time on car stuff than bike stuff. Let me know if there's anything I can add my major difference of opinion to...


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## MagicRat (Jul 4, 2012)

I use Lubriplate white grease on every rolling surface with No Problems.


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## scrubbinrims (Jul 4, 2012)

AntonyR said:


> (from beyond the grave)
> Hey! I'm not gone, just spending more time on car stuff than bike stuff. Let me know if there's anything I can add my major difference of opinion to...




That's great you're not disconnected...I learned a lot from your past posts and the CABE is better with knowledgeable folks like you around.
Chris


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## ABC Services (Jul 4, 2012)

*If brake does not stop quickly*

DO NOT  disassemble it. Squirt kerosene into the oil hole, then spin wheel on stand. Repeat several times and you will soon notice renewed braking efficiency. Lubricate thoroughly with light motor oil, applied in oil cup.


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## gregv (Jul 4, 2012)

My copy of the 1957 Schwinn service manual says to grease the bearings and drive screw but to oil the discs, if that helps any. I did just that on my recent model D rebuild and it didn't brake worth a damn and it screached loudly; after adding quite a few drops of 10W30 thru the oiling hole it became very quiet and it now has great braking. Overall it's a very smooth hub. I used an NOS set of discs that were so old the packing grease had turned solid, but it all came off easily enough in a bath of thinners; after that I packed them in WD-40 until I oiled them for assembly.

greg v.


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## Ranger Dan (Jul 4, 2012)

AntonyR said:


> Sorry. Wrong. Bearing grease doesn't flow. It also dries out and stops lubricating, whereas the correct oil will slowly seep(not so much that you will have it all over the rims/spokes) out, then you top it up periodically through the filler- it's not there for looks. Oil seeks places to lube, grease stays put. Grease will also create drag, compared to oil. As long as you don't overheat the discs continually by "riding" the brake or ride in a very hilly area, you will probably never need to service a hub with oil maintenance. The people that built the hub say 20wt. Should I keep going?
> Disc maintenance: Sanding removes material, creating more play in the hub- forget about it. If you can see/feel grooves in the discs, replace them. They're easy to find.




For what it's worth, I've got to agree with almost all of this.  I recently serviced an ND hub I'd rebuilt last year when then I had packed the thing with plenty of grease, on the advice of the Right Esteemed Mr. Brown.*  It worked pretty well but was a bit sluggish in the braking engagement.  On this last go a few weeks back, I'd located the same document that Dave includes, calling for hypoid lubricant, so I took it apart and cleaned all the grease from the plates.  I reassembled it and oiled it through the filler cap, and now that sucker stops like a champ.

I didn't use hypoid oil, though, because I was too lazy to go to the store.  Someone here will probably tell me why I was stupid to use the 3-in-1 oil that was at hand, but like I said, that brake now lays on a skid with the greatest of ease and yet still modulates extremely well.

If you use hypoid oil, you probably want to check to see that it contains no "EP (extreme pressure) additives."  According to this Wiki page, "It is extremely important to note that EP additives are corrosive to yellow metals such as copper or brass in bushings and synchronizers."  Because those are alternating brass and steel plates in the ND, right?

___
* On one of his pages, Sheldon mentions that one can't over-grease a coaster brake.  Well, that might apply to the Bendix-type design, but the ND is obviously a completely different arrangement.  Sheldon's ND page simply has an exploded parts diagram but no maintenance instructions, if I recall correctly.


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## cyclingday (Jul 4, 2012)

It's great that a thread started in 2010 still has viability.

The ad for the 1934 Schwinn Streamlined Aerocycle says to use 3 in 1 oil to lubricate the chain and brakes.

Well, the Aerocycle isn't around anymore, and neither is Schwinn for the most part. But, 3 in 1 oil still is! And, still is, the best lubricant that you can use for your chain and brakes.

Grease is for bearings and light oil is for bushings.  

Never, use grease on the bronze brake surfaces of any hub made, period. New Departure, Mussleman, Morrow, Bendix,etc. The quickest way to ensure that you totally screw up your hub, is to assemble it wrong and to pack it with grease.

Again. only the bearing races should be packed with grease. everything else only gets a light coating of oil. And I mean light. That is why the oiling port was so conveniently placed, where it was easy to get at. A couple of drops once every couple of weeks depending on how often you ride, is all it takes.


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## slick (Jul 4, 2012)

I have learned quite a bit from my thread i started, and past experiments on rebuilding hubs. I think i have a great pattern down now. I degrease everything so it's all spotless. Even in between every brake disc. Repack all the bearings with automotive bearing grease, then i put only 2 drops of 10-30 oil on each brake disc. One drop on each side, reassemble them all staggering them of course with one washer, one with the tabs, etc.. I have had great results now and the brakes on a few of them actually snap my wrist pretty good when i spin it in my hands and hit the brakes.


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## dougfisk (Jul 4, 2012)

Ranger Dan said:


> ...If you use hypoid oil, you probably want to check to see that it contains no "EP (extreme pressure) additives."  According to this Wiki page, "It is extremely important to note that EP additives are corrosive to yellow metals such as copper or brass in bushings and synchronizers."  Because those are alternating brass and steel plates in the ND, right?  .




FWIW - Just guessing here, but any commonly available Hypoid probably will contain high pressure additives as that is the point of Hypoid lube.  Automotive ring & pinion gears are under high load and have a sliding method of operation (kind of like the brake discs).

Also lube "weight" designations are not uniform between motor oil and axle lube.  An 80 or 90 weight axle lube is probably more comparable in consistency to a 40 weight motor oil.

Also, after servicing a hub, I suggest using the bike for a little while before drawing any conclusions about the brakes.  It takes a little use to squeeze the excess lube off of the braking surfaces.  I have seen some improve dramatically with use.


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## MagicRat (Jul 4, 2012)

Check your Chain Slack.


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## SirMike1983 (Jul 4, 2012)

From what I recall, the 3-in-1 blue can with the motor on it is basically 20 weight oil and is pretty good stuff. The 3-in-1 in the household black/red can has vegetable additives that can crud up. I stopped using it in my hubs when I noticed it turning to a gel. When I opened the hubs they were a mess. The "motor" type 3-in-1 was fine. 30 weight motor oil has also been fine.


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## Boris (Jul 4, 2012)

Any thoughts on gun oil? Says it's good for fast running fine mechanisms.


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## Harborbikes (Feb 27, 2018)

MagicRat said:


> I use Lubriplate white grease on every rolling surface with No Problems.



Tom here from harbor bikes with new departure D news; properly lubricate the model D complete with red grease as used on the printing press at your local news paper printi


 ng press.


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