# 1940 New World with a Bayliss-Wiley rear hub.



## Oilit (Oct 22, 2022)

A couple of weeks ago I bought a 1940 (D8727, but the "8" is hard to read) New World with a derailleur three speed rear hub. The derailleur itself is a Huret Alvit, so no older than the late '50's, but the rear hub is an English Bayliss-Wiley. I found one piece of advertising on the Veteran-Cycle Club library, but there's no date. The hub has 36 spokes and is laced to what looks like the original pre-war rim, so it must have been made for the American market, but does anybody know when Bayliss-Wiley were in operation? The woman I bought this from said her mother bought it from a guy who was getting shipped off to WWII and rode it until she was 70. She also had an uncle who worked on bikes (I'm not sure if she meant he was her mother's uncle or her own) and he was probably the one who installed the three-speed, with whatever he had lying around. It was stiff when I first got it, but I sprayed it down with some penetrating oil and now it feels ready to go! These are the best pictures I've got for now (the first three were from the seller), I'll get some better ones later.


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## GTs58 (Oct 22, 2022)

That derailleur is what I call the second gen Allvit. The first 1958? version was pretty different. That one first showed up on some imported Higgins lightweights and the Schwinn Corvette 5 and Continental in mid 61.

Very interesting hub. Threaded on both ends?


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## Oilit (Oct 22, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> That derailleur is what I call the second gen Allvit. The first 1958? version was pretty different. That one first showed up on some imported Higgins lightweights and the Schwinn Corvette 5 and Continental in mid 61.
> 
> Very interesting hub. Threaded on both ends?



I've heard of the early bikes having different sprockets on either side so you could change gears, maybe this was something similar? But then why have a three speed freewheel? This is a new one on me.


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## GTs58 (Oct 22, 2022)

Oilit said:


> I've heard of the early bikes having different sprockets on either side so you could change gears, maybe this was something similar? But then why have a three speed freewheel? This is a new one on me.



First hub I've seen threaded on both ends. Made for different types of riding maybe, like casual on flat to casual on hilly? Ha! 
Cool option for someone that wants something a little different.


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## SirMike1983 (Oct 22, 2022)

Bayliss Wiley is an old company that goes back before WWII. Could be a period hub - they were making hubs in the 1930s-40s. It has a flip-flop hub to allow a couple options for gearing. Often a freewheel would be on one side and a fixed gear on the other. The derailleur is newer, as you say. Nice having the reverse color fenders. That was a cool option to have.


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## PfishB (Oct 23, 2022)

I'm a fan of that era of British high flange double sided hubsets. No Bayliss yet but I've managed to acquire a couple of BH Airlites and a set each of Powell and Resilion. All have the (apparently) standard period British drilling of 40 / 32 which does make it a little harder to source rims for the darn things.. Have yet to come across any drilled 36 but I'm sure they're out there.


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## Oilit (Oct 23, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> Bayliss Wiley is an old company that goes back before WWII. Could be a period hub - they were making hubs in the 1930s-40s. It has a flip-flop hub to allow a couple options for gearing. Often a freewheel would be on one side and a fixed gear on the other. The derailleur is newer, as you say. Nice having the reverse color fenders. That was a cool option to have.



If it's a period hub, I may just have to keep it and find a more appropriate derailleur. The woman said she has some pictures of her mother with the bike when she was younger, if she sends them I'll post them.


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## Schwinny (Oct 23, 2022)

As sir Mike mentioned, Bayliss Wiley is just Old fashioned English hard parts company. Their biz was a lot of hubs, gears and Bottom brackets among others. Almost half of all standard old English bikes are running Bayliss Bottom Brackets.
The flip flop hub was much more common in England back in the 20s-50s than it is today. The flip flop was a "sporting" hub. Considered a Club upgrade if not stock original.
ALSO,
Considering the bike in question...
The 597 ISO rim/ tire size is the original English standard tire size. Can you tell what kind of rims?
It might be an early swap out set.


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## SirMike1983 (Oct 23, 2022)

Oilit said:


> If it's a period hub, I may just have to keep it and find a more appropriate derailleur. The woman said she has some pictures of her mother with the bike when she was younger, if she sends them I'll post them.



Yes - stick with the rear hub and acquire parts to go with it. Most of the British sporting hubs from that period are excellent - Airlites, BW, Sturmey, etc. pretty much all are good hubs worth keeping.


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## Oilit (Oct 23, 2022)

Schwinny said:


> As sir Mike mentioned, Bayliss Wiley is just Old fashioned English hard parts company. Their biz was a lot of hubs, gears and Bottom brackets among others. Almost half of all standard old English bikes are running Bayliss Bottom Brackets.
> The flip flop hub was much more common in England back in the 20s-50s than it is today. The flip flop was a "sporting" hub. Considered a Club upgrade if not stock original.
> ALSO,
> Considering the bike in question...
> ...



I haven't found any markings on these rims. I thought they might be Schwinn Superiors, but if they're marked, I can't see it. But the front hub is a Schwinn "phone dial" and since both rims have 36 spokes, I'm guessing they're American. The English bikes from this period usually have 32 spoke front wheels and 40 spoke rears, I was surprised to find an English hub drilled for the American pattern. I tried to get some more pictures, not much luck but here's a couple detail pictures of the "U.S. Royal Touring" tires, I think the "American Hooked Edge Rims" refers to the 599 b.s.d. rims.


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## SirMike1983 (Oct 23, 2022)

The "hooked edge" refers to the fact it takes a clincher tire rather than a single tube or glue-on, the "American Hooked Edge" refers to the 599mm 26 x 1.375 that were common in the 1930s-50s. It's interesting that the tire claims it will fit both the 597mm 26 x 1 1/4 (a British size before Schwinn later adopt it as its own) and the American 1.375 (599mm).


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## dubsey55 (Oct 24, 2022)

Cyclo twin wire would be the most appropriate set-up.   Huret svelto, while from the sixties, is another good option, for riding. Its small, looks old, but works better than the earlier stuff.


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## juvela (Oct 24, 2022)

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B-W hub -

these double sided hubs are often referred to with the shorthand expression "D/S"

this type where they are freewheel on one side and fixed on the other are sometimes referred to as "training hubs"

there are also double sided hubs which are fixed on both sides

member @dnc1 may be able to contribute additional B-W information  😉

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gears -

is the shift lever we see on the top tube a Freres Huret item as well or is it something else?  if something else it would provide a clue as to what was there originally.

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propstand appears to be Shuresta; is that correct?


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## Oilit (Oct 24, 2022)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> B-W hub -
> 
> ...



It's a Huret lever. And the kickstand is indeed a Shuresta. Sorry about the picture, I'm still learning to use the camera on my new phone. But if the Geico caveman can do it I can too - eventually.


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## Oilit (Oct 24, 2022)

dubsey55 said:


> Cyclo twin wire would be the most appropriate set-up.   Huret svelto, while from the sixties, is another good option, for riding. Its small, looks old, but works better than the earlier stuff.



I think I've seen one of those in one of these threads, now if I can just remember which one.


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## juvela (Oct 24, 2022)

Oilit said:


> It's a Huret lever. And the kickstand is indeed a Shuresta. Sorry about the picture, I'm still learning to use the camera on my new phone. But if the Geico caveman can do it I can too - eventually.





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thank you for the response

new phone: soon you shall be able to make some images of geckos


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## Oilit (Oct 24, 2022)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> thank you for the response
> 
> ...



They'll probably get photobombed.


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## juvela (Oct 24, 2022)

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B-W sidenote -

another interesting component from this manufacturer was their oil bath bottom bracket assembly -





advert of 1932

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## dnc1 (Oct 24, 2022)

What a lovely little bicycle with a nice history that I hope you can find out more of.
I do like bicycles that may have had upgrades by various owners as new technologies became available.
As to Bayliss-Wiley, they were established in 1919 before being bought out by 'Perry and Co.' in 1926. 
It remained part of the part of the parent company, 'Perry and Co. (Holdings) Ltd and was, I believe,  still part of that company when it merged with 'Renold Chains' in 1959.
Interestingly, they had an overseas selling and distribution operation in New York from 1948 up until the mid 1960's, marketing all of the groups products. 
So perhaps they were producing 36 hole hubs for the US market during this time period as the export economy was so important to British industries.
They also had similar selling and distribution of
operations in Belgium and Canada (both closed in '64) so I think it's not unreasonable to assume they produced lots of their hubs with 36 holes, as Belgium would also have used this configuration, so perhaps you could consider 1948 onwards as a date for that hub?

The fixed and 3-speed hub was very popular in France during the 1930's/40's and continued into the 1950's.
They were also popular in the UK,  but as has been stated above, usually in the 40 hole configuration.

As to a more suitable derailleur,  the early ("double  cable") Cyclo models may be more appropriate, the 'Standard' or 'Oppy' models from 1948.....
















as would their early single cable models such as the 'Super Olympic' (above) or, if one moved forward a couple of years to a date of 1950, you could consider a first generation 'Benelux' model.....








...and of course if you stayed with a French option, there are so many that may be suitable. 

Personally,  I would stick with what you already have, as this is how someone decided to enjoy it a long time ago,  but that decision is yours.
Enjoy it.

(Images from the excellent 'Disraeli Gears' website)







						Disraeli Gears - a derailleur collection
					

“You know how the title came about - Disraeli Gears - yeah? We had this Austin Westminster, and Mick Turner was one of the roadies who’d been with me a long time, and he was driving along and Eric (Clapton) was talking about getting a racing bicycle. Mick, driving, went ‘Oh yeah - Disraeli...




					www.disraeligears.co.uk


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## Oilit (Oct 24, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> What a lovely little bicycle with a nice history that I hope you can find out more of.
> I do like bicycles that may have had upgrades by various owners as new technologies became available.
> As to Bayliss-Wiley, they were established in 1919 before being bought out by 'Perry and Co.' in 1926.
> It remained part of the part of the parent company, 'Perry and Co. (Holdings) Ltd and was, I believe,  still part of that company when it merged with 'Renold Chains' in 1959.
> ...



Thank you for the excellent references! Plenty of food for thought!


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## Oilit (Nov 1, 2022)

The woman I bought this bike from is named Jan, and today she sent me some pictures. The first 7 pictures are of a ride Jan's mom went on with a group of friends from El Cajon to Coronado (in the San Diego area), the first two taken in El Cajon, then two on the ferry to Coronado, then three shots on the beach where they camped out. Jan says she thinks this was near the end of WWII or shortly after, so '45, '46 or '47. The last picture in this group is the best shot of the bike and it already had a derailleur at this point. Anybody recognize any of the other riders?


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## Oilit (Nov 1, 2022)

These last three pictures are more of a mixed bag, the first is a shot of one of her mom's boyfriends on the bike, and Jan says she wonders if this was the guy her mom bought the bike from, but she doesn't know for sure. Notice that the bike looks like it has a Sturmey-Archer quadrant shifter on the top tube, so this may be an earlier picture. The second is a tandem that must have belonged to some of her friends, Jan says it wasn't her mom's, but it 's a good picture. The last shows Jan, her mother and her brother on a trip to the Anza Borrego Desert in 1971. Her mother's brother (Jan's uncle) was the one who worked on bikes, and Jan's brother had gotten a new Schwinn a couple of years earlier, while Jan's bike was one her uncle had put together out of parts, so she was feeling a little jealous.


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## SirMike1983 (Nov 1, 2022)

There may be two black New Worlds with white fenders in the group. One of the pictures shows the two women on the right with what appear to be matching New Worlds with light fenders. One of the New Worlds looks to have a Sturmey Archer with quadrant set up and the other is the derailleur bike you have found. The picture with the sailor on the New World actually looks to me to be the other Schwinn New World with the Sturmey set up (it has a quadrant on the top tube). But then in another photo your bike has the derailleur on it and a different shifter(?). It also looks like an Iver Johnson was in the group, and a ballooner (DX?) with no fenders.


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## PatrickZ (Nov 1, 2022)

In the last photo on the beach, it appears to have a chain stay-mounted dual cable Cyclo derailleur. You may be able to find evidence of the clamp on the chain stay - I couldn't tell from the original photo.


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## GTs58 (Nov 1, 2022)

That's some cool history on that piece. Since it's a one owner and has that history, my thoughts would be to leave it as is and just clean it up. But if you decide to make it closer to what it was in the pictures with the older derailleur, I'll gladly buy that Huret Allvit if you have no use for it. Looking at those pictures blown up, I think @PatrickZ might be on to the unit that was used during that beach trip. 
I'll be sending you a PM with some other info since you're researching the rims.


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## Miq (Nov 1, 2022)

The Coronado bike camping adventure looks worthy of keeping pictures of to this day.

Other D 4-digit serial on the New Worlds list have 3 piece cranks, AS&Co Chainrings and Sturmy 3 speed hubs.  The Bayliss Wiley setup looks very unique.  I'm going to add it to the list.


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## SirMike1983 (Nov 2, 2022)

I agree that the derailleur looks like a Cyclo from what can be seen in that one picture.


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## juvela (Nov 2, 2022)

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thanks so much for sharing these photos Oilit!

quite rare an enthusiast receives this kind of provenance with a newly acquired piece.

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was Cyclo the Schwinn supplier of gear mechs at this epoch or would you theorize it is something "someone just put on there"?


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## Oilit (Nov 2, 2022)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> thanks so much for sharing these photos Oilit!
> 
> ...



The earliest option I've seen for a derailleur Schwinn was in the 1950 catalog, so I'm guessing this was something somebody put on. The pre-war three speeds are usually equipped with Sturmey-Archer hubs, and that's probably what's on the bike that Bob (the former boyfriend) was riding. If that's the same bike, then the rear hub must have been changed later. On the other hand, @SirMike1983 is correct, the two bikes on the right in the first picture are both lightweights with white fenders, and it looks like one of them may have a quadrant shifter on the top tube like Bob's bike. I was looking to see if one of them has a phone dial front hub, but it's not quite clear enough to tell. When I was a kid my mom had a Brownie Box camera, these pictures remind me of the ones she used to get.


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## dnc1 (Nov 3, 2022)

Great photos and a little more history,  a wonderful thing to have with any bicycle. 
The derailleur looks like a little 'Cyclo' like to me in the photo,  but not quite like a twin-cable model to me.
I can only see a single cable running down to the derailleur.
One other possibility might be a later style 'Tri-Velox' system which used a Quadrant style changer with a single cable; I don't know if they ever made a stay mounted version  of it, so this is just supposition really though.
The Sailors bike is definitely a hub-geared bicycle as the bottom run of the chainline suggests.


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## GTs58 (Nov 3, 2022)

In the 2nd group picture the first White fendered piece has a shifter mounted near the head tube in the standard location. The 1st picture on the ferry the NW pictured has the shifter center on the top tube. The beach shot has the derailleur bike with the shifter center of the top tube. So the sailor is riding the other NW, not Jan's mother's NW.


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## Miq (Nov 3, 2022)

I’m with @GTs58, sailor Bob is riding the other New World, not @Oilit’s bike.
Its also possible both of the white mudguard New Worlds could be Bob’s bikes.  Then he could be riding one and selling the other.
Taking some artistic license on the leftmost arrow in this pic:


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## Oilit (Nov 4, 2022)

@Miq, in your close-up that 2nd bike sure looks like the one Bob was riding and the head badges both look like New Worlds. And while I'm guessing this hub was an add-on, Schwinn advertised Paramount equipment as being optional so it's not 100% certain that it wasn't a special order from the factory.  One thing's for sure, if this hub has been on this bike since the late '40's I'm not going to change it now.
This Cyclo derailleur was listed on EBay and @dnc1 may be right: it's close but maybe not an exact match? And this one clamps around the chain stay while some of them mount to a brazed-on bracket. Lots of variations to consider!


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## SirMike1983 (Nov 4, 2022)

Trying to dig up the exact model from the photos and from that era is going to be tough. It's doable, but not an easy task. These units did not work as well as the post-war derailleurs made starting in the 1950s and 60s. I suspect that's part of why the original was replaced by a post-war derailleur on this bike. It's common to see older bikes with newer derailleurs on them. The derailleur came into its own in the 1950s and 60s. If you can get reasonably close in terms of time period and fit, even if it's a little different model, I'd give it a try.


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## Oilit (Nov 4, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> Trying to dig up the exact model from the photos and from that era is going to be tough. It's doable, but not an easy task. These units did not work as well as the post-war derailleurs made starting in the 1950s and 60s. I suspect that's part of why the original was replaced by a post-war derailleur on this bike. It's common to see older bikes with newer derailleurs on them. The derailleur came into its own in the 1950s and 60s. If you can get reasonably close in terms of time period and fit, even if it's a little different model, I'd give it a try.



I'm just kicking around ideas. Jan's uncle evidently knew what he was doing, the shifter works nice, the tires look good and the wheels run true. The only thing this bike really needs is some new brake pads, the old ones are hard as wooden blocks!


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Nov 4, 2022)

""..bike really needs is some new brake pads, the old ones are hard as wooden blocks!""

original and old is best, stopping is for sissies! 🙂


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## juvela (Nov 4, 2022)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> ""..bike really needs is some new brake pads, the old ones are hard as wooden blocks!""
> 
> original and old is best, stopping is for sissies! 🙂




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some folk just love the feel of chrome plated rims slipping through  linoleum-like brake pads!   🤪



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## Miq (Nov 4, 2022)

I was hoping you would report how it rides/shifts.  Sounds like you've given it a test run.

I like the idea of keeping the stuff that works well.  Even if its aftermarket add on stuff from the 50's, it is still very old and cool, and tells a story about upgrade capabilities during that time.  But only if it actually works.  Glad the uncle cared about that too.


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## Oilit (Nov 19, 2022)

PatrickZ said:


> In the last photo on the beach, it appears to have a chain stay-mounted dual cable Cyclo derailleur. You may be able to find evidence of the clamp on the chain stay - I couldn't tell from the original photo.



@PatrickZ, I took some close-ups of the chain stay and there's some marks that may have been left by the derailleur, but it's hard to say for sure. On the other hand, the top tube has a very distinct mark where the shifter may have been clamped. And I apologize for the first picture being a little out of focus, getting my phone to focus where I want it is a skill I'm still trying to master.


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## juvela (Nov 19, 2022)

Oilit said:


> @PatrickZ, I took some close-ups of the chain stay and there's some marks that may have been left by the derailleur, but it's hard to say for sure. On the other hand, the top tube has a very distinct mark where the shifter may have been clamped. And I apologize for the first picture being a little out of focus, getting my phone to focus where I want it is a skill I'm still trying to master.




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😉

...won't be long now before those geckos shall begin to start coming into view...


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## Schwinny (Nov 20, 2022)

That Huret Alvit derailleur is pretty good from what I've read. You can look it up on Disreali Gears.
Did you get that Cyclo twin wire? Those went from the 20s to the 50s. Right in front of the "Cyclo Bham" stamping on the derailleur idler arm is the year it was made. Dirt over it in the pics.


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## GTs58 (Nov 20, 2022)

Schwinny said:


> That Huret Alvit derailleur is pretty good from what I've read. You can look it up on Disreali Gears.
> Did you get that Cyclo twin wire? Those went from the 20s to the 50s. Right in front of the "Cyclo Bham" stamping on the derailleur idler arm is the year it was made. Dirt over it in the pics.




These Huret Allvits with that particular jockey wheel cage (1st edition) replaced the old Simplex? pieces on the Continentals in mid 1961. I was looking for one of those for my May 61 serial numbered Corvette 5 speed and a NOS piece in the box showed up on eBay in maybe 2009. I was going to throw in a last-minute bid but during the week the price quickly creeped up way past my max. It sold for over $900!!!! And I followed the sale afterwards, it went to Japan and the new owner was a Huret collector.


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## Oilit (Nov 20, 2022)

Schwinny said:


> That Huret Alvit derailleur is pretty good from what I've read. You can look it up on Disreali Gears.
> Did you get that Cyclo twin wire? Those went from the 20s to the 50s. Right in front of the "Cyclo Bham" stamping on the derailleur idler arm is the year it was made. Dirt over it in the pics.



Somebody else made an offer and the seller accepted, so I missed out on that one. But thanks for the information, that's good to know!


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## PatrickZ (Nov 21, 2022)

Oilit said:


> @PatrickZ, I took some close-ups of the chain stay and there's some marks that may have been left by the derailleur, but it's hard to say for sure. On the other hand, the top tube has a very distinct mark where the shifter may have been clamped. And I apologize for the first picture being a little out of focus, getting my phone to focus where I want it is a skill I'm still trying to master.
> 
> View attachment 1735548
> 
> ...



I agree there is nothing conclusive on the chain stay in these photos to indicate a clamp-on derailleur. Like others have said, you can't go wrong restoring and leaving the current Huret in place. It's part of the bike's history by now anyway.


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