# Looking for more info on a possible Elgin bicycle



## Bike from the Dead (Mar 12, 2022)

Earlier on this Wednesday, my dad was at a local fire museum, and I guess they had some stuff in storage they didn't want/need anymore, so they offered to just give him whatever he wanted out of what was there. Among the stuff he took home with him was a bike. He had no idea what kind of bike it was (he's more into gas and oil memorabilia, along with classic cars,) so when he showed me a couple pics of it on his phone, I was blown away by what he obtained! I can tell that at least the fenders, chain guard, kickstand, and pedals aren't original to the bike, but the Elgin does seem to have the original wheels, chainring, seat post, truss rods and fork on it. I don't know if the seat, handlebars and handlebar stem are original to the bike, but they do look fairly old all things considered. I don't know if the paint is original, but it's very old and flaking off the frame. Amazingly, there's hardly any rust on this bike! It's practically just bare steel poking through the paint, and even the wheels look remarkably clean for their age! Even the tires, which have cracked in spots from sitting flat for years, still feel surprisingly soft in most places. This bike had to have been kept indoors for most of its life to be in this good of shape!

What we need help with on this bike is figuring out the year, manufacturer, what parts are original vs. what isn't, and how much it's worth.

This first batch of photos is in "as found" condition, with all the original dust left undisturbed aside from where it's been handled.





























The head badge is missing, but I can just barely see where the head badge rivets would've gone. It looks like that area was painted over, so I can't tell if the paint's original, or an old repaint from decades ago.







Maybe it's just my eyes playing tricks on me, but it looks like the fork is bent back just a little. I cropped the picture below so the front of the headset is angled completely even with the sides of the picture, and the fork does appear bent back slightly. I think I could bend them back to the right angle, though, or at least get them close.




One more detail I'm skeptical of: I don't know if this is the result of manufacturing, or frame damage, but there's a slight dip at the front of the top tube just before it meets the headset. It doesn't look too bad, but I don't know. I'm not an expert on Elgins, as I've never been able to get my hands on one before.



















For those who can't read it, the seat says "Lobdell Emery Made in U.S.A."







More pictures coming up next!


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 12, 2022)

After a quick dusting, I could really tell just how well this bike could clean up... aside from the paint. Some of it flaked off with almost no pressure from wiping the dust off. Still, just a quick dusting, and this bike wants to shine!


































The kickstand's not right for this bike, I don't think, but it is pretty interesting. Anybody know what kind it's supposed to be?
















Anyone know what's up with the "S" stamped onto the fork and bottom bracket?







There's a date, August 16th of 2001, marked on the seat post. I need to find out what the significance of that date means. Maybe that's when the fire museum acquired this bike?




I'm having a hard time reading the stamping under the bottom bracket. Looks like they didn't stamp it on right, based on how they seemed to have stamped it more than once. It looks like it's supposed to read "MOS T95504," but I'm not sure. Also, what's up with all the dots at the top?


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 12, 2022)

The undersides of the fenders aren't even that rusty. I'm kind of impressed.







Even though the tires have hardened somewhat, they're honestly not in too bad of shape. If I just wanted to put them on a display bike, they'd probably look alright... outside of a few sidewall cracks, that is.







Seat's not too bad underneath either.


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## J-wagon (Mar 12, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> It looks like it's supposed to read "MOS T95504," but I'm not sure.



MOS = Murray built for Sears


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 12, 2022)

J-wagon said:


> MOS = Murray built for Sears



Okay, cool! Thanks!


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## J-wagon (Mar 12, 2022)

Rear hub mfg musselman, check hub shell nondrive side for date code


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 12, 2022)

J-wagon said:


> Rear hub mfg musselman, check hub shell nondrive side for date code
> View attachment 1587435



Cool! I'll check that out later tomorrow when I can get the bike out in some daylight.


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## Freqman1 (Mar 13, 2022)

The bike has been repainted and wrong fenders, guard, and pedals. Not sure about seat. At a swap I’m seeing about $150 bicycle tops. V/r Shawn


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Mar 14, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> The bike has been repainted and wrong fenders, guard, and pedals. Not sure about seat. At a swap I’m seeing about $150 bicycle tops. V/r Shawn




if bikes like this were $150 a pop where I live I would own a lot more bikes. a person with a  70's huffy in the same shape would ask $150 on the Bay Area Craigslist.


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## Freqman1 (Mar 14, 2022)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> if bikes like this were $150 a pop where I live I would own a lot more bikes. a person with a  70's huffy in the same shape would ask $150 on the Bay Area Craigslist.



Do like some of the other left coasters and come to Memory Lane next month. You’ll feel like you’re in Bargainmart for stuff like this! V/r Shawn


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## oldfart36 (Mar 15, 2022)

Murray straight bar, 39-41. If I was a betting man, I'd say the date on the seat post was when the bike was re-done, considering the fenders, pedals, etc.. Seat, bars, guard and truss rod setup are wrong as well, Good Project. They make great looking racer's, if not complete when found.


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## razinhellcustomz (Mar 15, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> After a quick dusting, I could really tell just how well this bike could clean up... aside from the paint. Some of it flaked off with almost no pressure from wiping the dust off. Still, just a quick dusting, and this bike wants to shine!
> View attachment 1587079
> View attachment 1587080
> View attachment 1587081
> ...



Hey Austin, Their is a patent # on the kick stand.. Could be an indicator to the year of the bike.. Nice Score, Deadman.. RideOnn.. Razin..


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

J-wagon said:


> Rear hub mfg musselman, check hub shell nondrive side for date code
> View attachment 1587435




Found the markings on the rear hub. Looks like my bike (or at least the hubs) were manufactured in the 1st quarter of 1938. According to one of the guys on RRB, the frame I have should be a 1938 model, so I'm willing to believe that at least the hubs (if not the complete wheels) are original to the frame.


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> The bike has been repainted and wrong fenders, guard, and pedals. Not sure about seat. At a swap I’m seeing about $150 bicycle tops. V/r Shawn



First repainted bike I've come across that not only didn't have primer under the paint, but didn't even have the original paint hiding underneath either! Kind of surprised. Whoever repainted this bike thought to get the bike down to bare metal, but didn't put at least a coat of primer on first? Yeah, I could tell right away that the fenders, guard and pedals were added later. I don't think the seat is original, but it's definitely old. That's lower than I expected, but I'm guessing that value comes mostly from the frame, fork and wheel hubs? I've seen people on the "For Sale/Trade" section asking at least that much on similar bikes just for the frame, so I don't know if that's just the difference in swap meet prices vs. online prices, or what. Thanks for your input, though!


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> if bikes like this were $150 a pop where I live I would own a lot more bikes. a person with a  70's huffy in the same shape would ask $150 on the Bay Area Craigslist.



I've seen similar prices for cheap '70s step-through road and track bikes here in Oklahoma! Based on what I've seen folks asking for on similar frames here on the "For Sale/Trade" section, I figured this bike was worth closer to $300, if only for the frame, fork, and wheels! Guess it depends on the region and what the buyer/seller thinks it's worth.


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Do like some of the other left coasters and come to Memory Lane next month. You’ll feel like you’re in Bargainmart for stuff like this! V/r Shawn



I'd love to go to more swap meets like that, but that's not a drive for me, _that's a flight!_ I can't afford to make those kind of trips right now. Hopefully that'll change soon, but for now, I'm sticking within 3 hours drive-time from home.


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

razinhellcustomz said:


> Hey Austin, Their is a patent # on the kick stand.. Could be an indicator to the year of the bike.. Nice Score, Deadman.. RideOnn.. Razin..







This is the patent # on the kickstand. I don't know if it's the same age as the bike, but the wheel hubs at least seem to be close to the same age as the frame.


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

Okay, this took longer than I meant for it to, but here are some additional photos to help identify the "Elgin."

I take it these are those Alemite fittings I keep hearing about?







I tried sanding off more of the paint under the bottom bracket to see if any other numbers or letters would show, but nothing else revealed itself.




Some close-ups of the rear hub.







Also, just to put it out there, as I was replacing the tubes and tires so I could get this bike rolling, I made a few discoveries.

First, the inside of both the rims are clean! Whether these are the original hoops or not, like the rest of the bike, they're nearly rust-free! Shiny, even!




Next, I found this inside the back tire. It even still holds air! (I took it out and replaced it with a new tube, both to be safe and to preserve the original tube.)




Before I replaced the tires, I just wanted to see what they'd look like inflated. The rear tire is actually in really good shape, almost like new! It's still grippy, it has now cracks that I could find, it's still got the mold lines on the middle of the tread! The front tire is not in as good of shape as the rear tire, but it'd look alright on a display bike, I think.


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

oldfart36 said:


> Murray straight bar, 39-41. If I was a betting man, I'd say the date on the seat post was when the bike was re-done, considering the fenders, pedals, etc.. Seat, bars, guard and truss rod setup are wrong as well, Good Project. They make great looking racer's, if not complete when found.
> 
> View attachment 1589187



Nice! Is that the period your Elgin was manufactured? According to one of the guys on ratrodbikes.com, mine appears to be a '38-'39. That also just so happens to be the date of manufacture on the rear hub, according to @J-wagon's earlier post. So I'm willing to bet mine is either a '38 or '39 model based on what I know so far.

That would definitely make sense for the date on the seat post. My guess was that was the day the fire museum acquired the bike, but I'm not ruling anything out until I ask someone from the museum itself.

I knew the fenders, guard and pedals were all wrong, and I figured that the seat and handlebars might not be original either, but I'm a little surprised by the truss rods. How are those wrong; just not the correct parts, or are they assembled incorrectly?

Thanks! They do look great as board track racers, as yours clearly shows. I know mine would look good as one; I've seen a lot of other folks build similar bikes that way, but that's part of the problem; just about every prewar Elgin/Murray I've seen that's similar to mine seems to have been converted into a board track racer. That just makes me want to go a completely different direction with mine! I've mocked up a few parts on this bike already, but nothing's really clicking just yet. I'd have to sketch up some ideas both on paper and in Photoshop before I make any decisions.

I actually got my Elgin rolling under its own power yesterday, and looking like a board track racer too! I had to tweak the master link on the chain so it'd actually lock together this time, but I was able to use the original skiptooth chain on this bike. Granted, it'd need to be cleaned and lubed again to be at its best, but none of the links are locked up at least. I just took it for a very short ride around my neighborhood, just to assess everything. The biggest issues the bike has right now is that the coaster brake needs a rebuild, and I can't get the handlebars clamped tight enough to prevent them from rotating down with any reasonable pressure applied to them. Seat's not too comfy either, but it's tolerable at least. I left the chain guard and fenders off, both because they weren't original to the bike, and because I just wanted to see how the bike would look without them. The tires are just some freebies I got from a friend, and the tubes were just ones I salvaged from some parts bikes. Not very elegant, but functional.


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## Freqman1 (Mar 17, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> Found the markings on the rear hub. Looks like my bike (or at least the hubs) were manufactured in the 1st quarter of 1938. According to one of the guys on RRB, the frame I have should be a 1938 model, so I'm willing to believe that at least the hubs (if not the complete wheels) are original to the frame.
> View attachment 1590350



Hub dates the bike to first quarter 1938. V/r Shawn


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## Mercian (Mar 17, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> View attachment 1590357
> 
> This is the patent # on the kickstand. I don't know if it's the same age as the bike, but the wheel hubs at least seem to be close to the same age as the frame.




Hi, @Bike from the Dead 

The patent for the stand dates from late 1934, so it should be at least contemporary with the other datable items you are finding on the bike.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

Mercian said:


> Hi, @Bike from the Dead
> 
> The patent for the stand dates from late 1934, so it should be at least contemporary with the other datable items you are finding on the bike.
> 
> ...



Wow, I had no idea it was that old! Awesome! Thanks for sharing! How'd you find that patent/diagram for it?


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## Mercian (Mar 17, 2022)

Hi @Bike from the Dead

Berry Cohen is the inventor in this case, and it is (technically) the first side stand on the market. Mr. Cohen did defend it against later patents , and you can read a bit about it here:






						Cohen v. Western Auto Supply Co., 131 F.2d 109 | Casetext Search + Citator
					

Read Cohen v. Western Auto Supply Co., 131 F.2d 109, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database



					casetext.com
				




I do a little bit of patent searching for my work, so I have a good idea of which stones to look under. (-:

This site is a bit clunky, but my preferred one, and excellent when you get used to it: Otherwise, you can type the patent number into Google, but it's not as accurate.






						Espacenet - 		 		 			 			 				 					Advanced search
					






					worldwide.espacenet.com
				




Have fun (-:

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

Mercian said:


> Hi @Bike from the Dead
> 
> Berry Cohen is the inventor in this case, and it is (technically) the first side stand on the market. Mr. Cohen did defend it against later patents , and you can read a bit about it here:
> 
> ...



Dang, you know your kickstands and patents! It's always fun getting to learn something new in this hobby. I never would have guessed this was among the earliest side stands out there, so it's cool that I got to learn a little bicycle history! Thanks for sharing!


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## razinhellcustomz (Mar 17, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> Found the markings on the rear hub. Looks like my bike (or at least the hubs) were manufactured in the 1st quarter of 1938. According to one of the guys on RRB, the frame I have should be a 1938 model, so I'm willing to believe that at least the hubs (if not the complete wheels) are original to the frame.
> View attachment 1590350



I picked up a Elgin rear coaster hub and will have to dig it out to see the date on mine.. Might try to build a bike around that hub.. Good to know you figured out the bikes year.. RideOnn.. Razin..


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## razinhellcustomz (Mar 17, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> Okay, this took longer than I meant for it to, but here are some additional photos to help identify the "Elgin."
> 
> I take it these are those Alemite fittings I keep hearing about?
> View attachment 1590360
> ...



Hey Austin, Here's a thought on those dots on the bottom bracket. Their are nine dots and five dots which could mean this frame was made in May of 39.. Just a mental note.. Hope this helps..


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

razinhellcustomz said:


> Hey Austin, Here's a thought on those dots on the bottom bracket. Their are nine dots and five dots which could mean this frame was made in May of 39.. Just a mental note.. Hope this helps..



Not a bad idea. I just figured they were machine marks left over from the stamping process, like something clamping down on the frame so it could be stamped properly. I like your idea, though!


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 17, 2022)

razinhellcustomz said:


> I picked up a Elgin rear coaster hub and will have to dig it out to see the date on mine.. Might try to build a bike around that hub.. Good to know you figured out the bikes year.. RideOnn.. Razin..



Awesome! Sounds like a good idea for a bike build! Thanks!


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## oldfart36 (Mar 18, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> Nice! Is that the period your Elgin was manufactured? According to one of the guys on ratrodbikes.com, mine appears to be a '38-'39. That also just so happens to be the date of manufacture on the rear hub, according to @J-wagon's earlier post. So I'm willing to bet mine is either a '38 or '39 model based on what I know so far.
> 
> That would definitely make sense for the date on the seat post. My guess was that was the day the fire museum acquired the bike, but I'm not ruling anything out until I ask someone from the museum itself.
> 
> ...




I do believe the bike is a 39. To be honest the closer I look it could be just the bracket is upside down, arch in rods also seems smaller looking as well. Being a Murray, a couple different styles were used, one style being the one piece truss rods with plate, similar to what the Higgins used. What's on yours, they also used a similar style. Either way, congrats, great project to have some fun with.


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## Adamtinkerer (Mar 19, 2022)

I've seen '39s that were simply stamped 'SD', this must be from a transitory period where they were starting to use 'MOS', but for whatever reason, no 'D'.


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 19, 2022)

oldfart36 said:


> I do believe the bike is a 39. To be honest the closer I look it could be just the bracket is upside down, arch in rods also seems smaller looking as well. Being a Murray, a couple different styles were used, one style being the one piece truss rods with plate, similar to what the Higgins used. What's on yours, they also used a similar style. Either way, congrats, great project to have some fun with.
> 
> View attachment 1590805
> 
> View attachment 1590806



Okay, thanks! I still wouldn't be surprised if the truss rods aren't original, given how many other parts were replaced, but they do look nice on the bike at least! Thanks! I'm looking forward to building it!


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## Bike from the Dead (Mar 19, 2022)

Adamtinkerer said:


> I've seen '39s that were simply stamped 'SD', this must be from a transitory period where they were starting to use 'MOS', but for whatever reason, no 'D'.
> View attachment 1591409



I think a safe bet would be to say that my bike is a '38-'39 model. I'm not super concerned about specifics, but it's still nice to know as much as I can. Thanks!


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## Girlbike (Apr 1, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> I think a safe bet would be to say that my bike is a '38-'39 model. I'm not super concerned about specifics, but it's still nice to know as much as I can. Thanks!



That's me too. For mine I was actually glad mine isn't some really desirable and rare bike,as I intend to trick it out. The thing is that it's really cool to learn a little about what you have found.


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## rollfaster (Apr 17, 2022)

You can compare it to the Murray built 38 I had.


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## Bike from the Dead (Apr 17, 2022)

rollfaster said:


> You can compare it to the Murray built 38 I had.
> 
> View attachment 1608841



I like how that looks! Very nice!


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## Rivnut (Apr 17, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> Okay, this took longer than I meant for it to, but here are some additional photos to help identify the "Elgin."
> 
> I take it these are those Alemite fittings I keep hearing about?
> View attachment 1590360
> ...



Besides these fittings on the hubs, there are two on the top of the bottom bracket and one on the head tube


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## razinhellcustomz (Jul 27, 2022)

Bike from the Dead said:


> I like how that looks! Very nice!



Elgin update: I just picked up a curved seat post about a month ago and could send you some pix from my phone...


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