# Need help with ID



## Rus Tea (Oct 25, 2010)

Hope some one can offer some help in making an Id.  The tubes seem to be drawn and seamed. the number on the right of the seat tube is 245687, two patents are listed on the BB  Dec. 3 1895  May 29 1900


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## redline1968 (Oct 26, 2010)

ivers johnson.........


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## DonChristie (Oct 26, 2010)

^^^I was thinking that also. Serial number is in the right place. How many holes for the headbadge? IJs have 3 holes. Any other parts with it?


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## Rus Tea (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks for the reply! There are two holes for the badge ,  verticle at 3 3/4'" cc.   All the others parts are of a later period, the only other piece I think maybe original to the frame is the Chainwheel.


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## redline1968 (Oct 28, 2010)

boy, if that dosent look like a schwinn chain ring. should have 3 holes for iver.   possibly ccm?


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## bairdco (Oct 28, 2010)

i know Colson's used a sweetheart sprocket, too, but i don't think the bike is a Colson. nice block chain, though...


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## fat tire trader (Oct 29, 2010)

What is the diameter of the bottom bracket shell?
chris ioakimedes
Fairfax, California
www.fattiretrading.com


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## Rus Tea (Oct 29, 2010)

*Schwinndoggy*  I thought the Ivers # run from the top down, these are from the bottom up?

*Redline168 *   The Schwinn Sweetheat has the crank set hole between the hearts, this one is in the heart like a Hawthorn or DP Harris

*fat tire trader  *The BB is 3" cc inside 3 1/8 outsde, the width is 2 5/8.

Found some cool stuff on the patents:  the May 29 1900 seems to be for a self fixing seat post http://www.google.com/patents?id=RV...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Dec. 3 1885 is for an extruded BB which this frame has; http://www.google.com/patents?id=7T...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=onepage&q&f=false



Thanks for the interest in my project.  This has got me truly stumped


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## redline1968 (Oct 29, 2010)

you should know who did the patents and then you will have your answer for your bike.


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## Rus Tea (Oct 29, 2010)

^^^ That was my orignal thought, but the patents are held by individuals, so I have to see if I can find the purchaser of the patent.  Or I'm hoping that something like the unique seat post( may 29 Patent)  will be a clue.  So far, no luck.


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## twowheelfan (Oct 29, 2010)

interesting.
http://www.peterforg.com/ 
I love this stuff!


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## davekingedits (Oct 30, 2010)

Did bicycle companies lease their patents back then, perhaps to other companies that were too far away to be competitors?  Or would the patent holder definitely be the manufacturer?

David King


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## Rus Tea (Oct 30, 2010)

> eresting.
> http://www.peterforg.com/
> I love this stuff!




Twowheelfan- That is incredible!  Google the name, I feel soo stupid!!!!   There are in the same as as listed in 1895 and only a few hours from me.  I'm going to give them a call on Monday!  What a great lead.  You guys are great!!!!!



> Did bicycle companies lease their patents back then, perhaps to other companies that were too far away to be competitors? Or would the patent holder definitely be the manufacturer?




I'm about to find out!


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## twowheelfan (Oct 30, 2010)

don't feel stupid my brother! We're all in this together! Just keep posting the progress!


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## twowheelfan (Nov 2, 2010)

did you make the call? Find out anything yet? Inquiring mind want to know? Did iver johnson or pope buy this patent from peter for seed money to fund his company? Or did he stay away from the evil monopoly and get wealthy as an independent selling his castings to smaller firms.


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## Rus Tea (Nov 2, 2010)

Well, I contacted the company .  David Forg responded, that he did not have the information at hand but would look into the company records.  That was Monday morning.  I was going to wait until Friday to give him a call if I don' t hear back before then.

In the mean time, I discovered that there were several Bicycle MFG in the Somervill Mass. area established in 1896 but only one established in 1895 ( the year of the patent).  Might be coincidence?  To add more simularity, their Wheel was the Loomis Lightweight, and this frame is very light in comparsion with other frames of simular vintage.....Hmmmm.

Soo... stay tuned 'till Friday, I'll update then.


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## Rus Tea (Nov 5, 2010)

I spoke with David Forg, the great grandson of Peter.  David will be seeing his Father today with a copy of the Patent and some Photos.  David told me that they produced many parts for the Bicycle and automotive industry over the years, and he doubted they constructed the frame but rather produced the BB for others, they continue to make stamped steel parts for several US bicycle mfgs.  They have some archived records and some very old peices of eguipment in the shop.  Hopefully, the archived records will shed some light as to the Mfg. of this particular frame.  Just speaking to the Great Grandson of the inventor was kinda exciting.  More news next Friday.




Was this the protype for the modern 1 piece BB?


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## twowheelfan (Nov 5, 2010)

wow! That's the coolest! Great story! Can't wait to hear more! See if you can get him to take pics of the old machinery. Tools that possibly made the part!


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## Rus Tea (Nov 18, 2010)

Well, I spoke with David Forg, Great Grandson of the inventor of the BB.  Seems the entire company was amazed at learning about the patent, David continues to search Co. records for reciepts dating to that era but the oldest he has found is from the 30's.  His Dad, Peter's Grandson who is now 77 remembers the name Fuller in conection with the bicycle bussiness.  



It turns out that Alvan Fuller was born in 1878 and his first business venture was in Bicycles, but the trail turns cold.  Turns out the Fullers were more popular in the Automotive business and Politics than bicycles. 

So, I think my next trip is to the Metz Bicycle Museum in Freehold to study some other BB's from that era.  One aspect of it that I have begun to appreciate is how light it is, even in comparison to modern cast and formed BB's.  The search continues......


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## DonChristie (Nov 18, 2010)

Cool stuff!


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## OldRider (Nov 18, 2010)

Bicycle sleuthing at its finest  Great job!


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## twowheelfan (Nov 19, 2010)

hmm business and politics....and bicycles? intriguing!


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