# Need lacing advice...



## guzziworksman (Sep 5, 2020)

I'm attempting to lace some new Worksman 26" rims. Pretty sure I have the pattern correct - 3 Over, matches a factory-laced rim I have. But even with the nipples turned all the way in - everything's loose. As if 1/4" shorter spokes would have worked. The new spokes/rim are the correct sizes. I'm reusing my hub - from a 24" Worksman wheel...and was told the hubs don't change in size from 24: to 26". Could that be my problem? Or did I do some rookie mistake? I've laced a few wheels in the past, and they always worked out. This one has me stumped. Thanks.


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## SKPC (Sep 5, 2020)

Yes, something went wrong in your spoke length calculation perhaps.  Go online and use the actual measurements of your rim and hub required to calculate spoke length and see what new figure you come up with.  Either this or 4-cross instead of 3?  I like this one below..





						#1 Wheel Building SPOKE CALCULATOR Now Online | PROWHEELBUILDER | Prowheelbuilder.com
					

This spoke calculator is provided only as a guide for your convenience in determining spoke lengths for your order. Select your components to quickly get a spoke length or you can enter them manually.




					www.prowheelbuilder.com


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## Barnegatbicycles (Sep 5, 2020)

Do you have a picture of the wheel you compared it too? How long are the spokes?  If you do it 4 cross it should work out.


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## piercer_99 (Sep 5, 2020)

unlace one side, turn it tight and redo it, I don't think you are starting in the right spot, ie, you started one hole off.


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## ricobike (Sep 5, 2020)

How long are your spokes?  Looks like your rim is a balloon tire rim and your hub looks to be for a trike but should be close to a standard size coaster.   I have in my notes to do a cross 3 (which you are doing) for a standard size coaster on a balloon tire wheel your spoke length should be around 10 1/4".   For a cross 4 pattern it would be around 10 5/8".


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## guzziworksman (Sep 6, 2020)

ricobike said:


> How long are your spokes?  Looks like your rim is a balloon tire rim and your hub looks to be for a trike but should be close to a standard size coaster.   I have in my notes to do a cross 3 (which you are doing) for a standard size coaster on a balloon tire wheel your spoke length should be around 10 1/4".   For a cross 4 pattern it would be around 10 5/8".



The rim and the spokes are new and from Worksman. The spokes are 10 9/16" - and they match the length on a factory-laced older 26" rim I have. And the older rim is a cross 3. So something's off somewhere. I'll give it another go in the morning. Start in a different hole? Look into a cross 4? Maybe I messed up in what hole I started my third set of 9 in? I really appreciate everyone taking the time with me, here. I'll report back.


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## guzziworksman (Sep 6, 2020)

MAYBE this is the source of my failed attempts...here's a pic of a Worksman hub. Is this a 3 cross or a 4 cross? I was looking at it, as a 3.


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## GTs58 (Sep 6, 2020)

The wheel above looks like a 4 cross to my old eyes.   Trying to follow spokes in a picture makes me cross eyed.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Sep 6, 2020)

had this issue once. I discovered that no matter how many times you lace it the same exact way your spokes will still be too long. 
I've only built 3 or 4 wheels, but one I did 4 or 5 times, so I am an expert.

you need to go 4 cross. if they come out short on 4 cross, you have the wrong spokes.


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## Barnegatbicycles (Sep 6, 2020)

guzziworksman said:


> MAYBE this is the source of my failed attempts...here's a pic of a Worksman hub. Is this a 3 cross or a 4 cross? I was looking at it, as a 3.View attachment 1261682



That's definately 4 cross.


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## ricobike (Sep 6, 2020)

guzziworksman said:


> The rim and the spokes are new and from Worksman. The spokes are 10 9/16" - and they match the length on a factory-laced older 26" rim I have. And the older rim is a cross 3. So something's off somewhere. I'll give it another go in the morning. Start in a different hole? Look into a cross 4? Maybe I messed up in what hole I started my third set of 9 in? I really appreciate everyone taking the time with me, here. I'll report back.




Yeah like everyone else is saying, your old wheel is a 4 cross.  10 9/16" should work if you lace them 4 cross.  Unfortunately, I don't know of any way to easily correct this, you'll probably need to take it all apart and start over.


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## rustjunkie (Sep 6, 2020)

unscrew the nipples from all your heads-in spokes then cross 4


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## Archie Sturmer (Sep 6, 2020)

Another way to determine spoke length and number of cross overs, is to count the even number of spokes between the two most parallel on opposing sides of the flange; the black wheel has 6, while the silver has 8.  It is always an even number, so it’s easy to tell if one was missed.  (The two most parallel spokes are two spokes apart at the rim; and do not cross each other).  One of the near-parallel spokes crosses half of that number; i.e., 3X or 4X.

In the case of the black wheel shown, to convert from 3X to 4X, one may re-do only half of the 36 spokes, 9 on each flange, (the ones laced from the inside of the hub to the outside).  When half the spoke nipples are removed, rotate the hub to take up the slack on the remaining spokes, (either all leading or lagging), and resume lacing with the 19th and 28th spokes to be nearly parallel to the spoke which is 180 degrees out at the hub.  The 8 other spokes on each side should follow in the correct positions.

The spoke near the “09/“ date stamp would be moved 4 holes over to the hole next to the valve stem.


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## guzziworksman (Sep 7, 2020)

An update and a word of thanks... 
Fact is, I've been a member of quite a few forums for various things. None, as competent, gentlemanly and responsive as this one. I very much appreciate being able to mingle with folks like all of you. Thanks! 
In terms of my godforsaken wheel. It's spoked. Pretty much. Truing might be a different story. The runout is a good 3/8" of an inch. I wound up doing a 3 cross - couldn't make a 4 cross work. I spent most of the day fooling with it - took it apart at least a dozen times. I tried copying the assembled (not by me) wheels including following the advice here, and youtube videos. During my fumbling through it, I discovered that my 24" rears (which I'm using the hubs from) are 4 cross. The 26" front is a 3 cross. All that did, was confuse me a bit more, if that's possible. I've never had a project that was so simple, yet so complicated. Spoking is easy, logical stuff...yes?


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## guzziworksman (Sep 18, 2020)

Archie Sturmer said:


> Another way to determine spoke length and number of cross overs, is to count the even number of spokes between the two most parallel on opposing sides of the flange; the black wheel has 6, while the silver has 8.  It is always an even number, so it’s easy to tell if one was missed.  (The two most parallel spokes are two spokes apart at the rim; and do not cross each other).  One of the near-parallel spokes crosses half of that number; i.e., 3X or 4X.
> 
> In the case of the black wheel shown, to convert from 3X to 4X, one may re-do only half of the 36 spokes, 9 on each flange, (the ones laced from the inside of the hub to the outside).  When half the spoke nipples are removed, rotate the hub to take up the slack on the remaining spokes, (either all leading or lagging), and resume lacing with the 19th and 28th spokes to be nearly parallel to the spoke which is 180 degrees out at the hub.  The 8 other spokes on each side should follow in the correct positions.
> 
> The spoke near the “09/“ date stamp would be moved 4 holes over to the hole next to the valve stem.



Archie - your advice did the trick...and was much simpler, clearer than any I found. Thank you so much! As an aside - whilst talking to Workman about my order, I asked for advice on 3 Cross/4 Cross lacing. A guy who seemed to know what he was talking about, said something like"...we've done it both ways, depending on how accurate the dimensions on the spokes/rims we got in. So it could be 3 Cross or 4 Cross, depending. To the extent, that you could find both, on the trike we're talking about." Not really comforting, seeing as how I'm working with new rims and spokes ordered from them - the "problem" unfortunately just gets passed along. I have two more wheels to do - and they'll be a breeze, thanks to you.


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