# Hat in the ring...why?



## Bendix (Mar 1, 2021)

Why did that insignia make it's way onto some Schwinn frames? 

Just wonderin'....


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## Andrew Gorman (Mar 1, 2021)

__





						Hat in the Ring - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



Mostly from Eddie Rickenbacker:








						Eddie Rickenbacker - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



He was everywhere then.


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## GTs58 (Mar 1, 2021)

I don't think it had anything at all to do with Eddie Rickenbacker.    That's just a big assumption.


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## Oilit (Mar 1, 2021)

This was discussed at some length toward the bottom of page 16 in this thread:








						Wartime Schwinn New World Bikes - We Know You Have Them - Tell Us About Them!! | Lightweight Schwinn Bicycles
					

Here are a few pics of my newly acquired New World which is badged Goodrich.




					thecabe.com


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## GTs58 (Mar 1, 2021)

What's the origin of the phrase 'Throw your hat into the ring'?​The ring in question here is a boxing ring. These, of course used to be circular spaces in a crowd of onlookers, rather than the square, roped 'rings' of contemporary pugilism. Any Jack the lad who fancied his chances in a bout would throw in his hat - presumably this was a more
reliable way of putting oneself forward than just shouting over the hubbub of the crowd.



The expression dates from at least the early 19th century. The earliest citation of it that I have found is from an 1805 issue of _The Sporting Magazine_, or as the publishers preferred to call it _The Sporting Magazine or Monthly Calendar of the Transactions of the Turf, the Chace, and every other Diversion Interesting to the Man of Pleasure, Enterprise and Spirit_:


> Belcher appeared confident of success [in a boxing match], and threw his hat into the ring, as an act of defiance to his antagonist




That citation doesn't specifically refer to a challenge. Another reference, from just a few years later, supplies that - The Mirror of Taste, published in Philadelphia in 1810:


> A young fellow threw his hat into the ring and followed, when the lame umpire called out "a challenge," and proceeded to equip the challenger for the game. ... He then walked round the ring till a second hat was thrown in, and the umpire called out, "the challenge is answered."



See also: throw in the towel.


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## bricycle (Mar 2, 2021)

Maybe signified "Uncle Sam" and the War efforts?


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## cyclingday (Mar 2, 2021)

Or, Schwinn’s effort to play with the big boys, and get into the professional racing ring.
They put their reputation on the line with the introduction of the Paramount Racer in 1938.


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## SirMike1983 (Mar 2, 2021)

The insignia derives from the 94th Aero Squadron, which in turn had it as a visual representation of the old phrase, "throw your hat in the ring", because America was later than most in joining WW1. After the war, the 94th and its insignia came to represent victory, strength, and speed through American effort and ingenuity in popular memory because of their exploits as fighter pilots in the air back in 1918. By adopting the symbol, Schwinn wanted to associate its products with speed, strength, modernity, and a response to european offerings and racers.


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## rennfaron (Mar 2, 2021)

More info here:








						Wartime Schwinn New World Bikes - We Know You Have Them - Tell Us About Them!! | Lightweight Schwinn Bicycles
					

Here are a few pics of my newly acquired New World which is badged Goodrich.




					thecabe.com


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## Jollyride (Mar 2, 2021)

That logo signifies Uncle Sam?

It was logoed on allot of WW1 planes.


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## GTs58 (Mar 2, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> Or, Schwinn’s effort to play with the big boys, and get into the professional racing ring.
> They put their reputation on the line with the introduction of the Paramount Racer in 1938.




That's exactly it.


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## catfish (Mar 2, 2021)




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## GTs58 (Mar 2, 2021)

Saying or thinking that the Schwinn hat in the ring decal is related to Eddie Rickenbacker is like thinking or saying this head badge is related to Hitler and Nazi Germany.





I'll post this again. If you read it and understand it you'll know what that decal signifies. The 1938 Paramount was the first to wear this decal.


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## Jeff54 (Mar 3, 2021)

SirMike1983 said:


> The insignia derives from the 94th Aero Squadron, which in turn had it as a visual representation of the old phrase, "throw your hat in the ring", because America was later than most in joining WW1. After the war, the 94th and its insignia came to represent victory, strength, and speed through American effort and ingenuity in popular memory because of their exploits as fighter pilots in the air back in 1918. By adopting the symbol, Schwinn wanted to associate its products with speed, strength, modernity, and a response to european offerings and racers.



Think U can add to that with the names Schwinn used, from Aerocycle that implies flight too FH Phantom. The  DH Hornet , Tiger and or 'Flying Tigers' and Spitfire. Even the Typhoon and Tornado are Fighter planes; they're  all names associated with flight, fighter planes and post war Jets.


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## Oilit (Mar 4, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> Saying or thinking that the Schwinn hat in the ring decal is related to Eddie Rickenbacker is like thinking or saying this head badge is related to Hitler and Nazi Germany.
> 
> View attachment 1366523
> 
> ...



As long as you recognize that it was Eddie Rickenbacker and his squadron that made that insignia famous, before Schwinn ever thought to use it. And as far as the swastika, anybody who uses that these days is identifying with the Nazis, whatever the symbolism may once have been. I remember when "gay" just meant happy and cheerful.


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## SirMike1983 (Mar 4, 2021)

Shades of Godwin's Law...


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## cyclingday (Mar 4, 2021)

Regardless of the, what, where & why, that logo was cool, and I’m glad that the Arnold-Schwinn & Co. threw their hat in the ring.


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## Bendix (Mar 4, 2021)

Thanks for all the replies!

Apparently they did it because they thought it was cool and might sell some bikes! 

I was half expecting some obscure story about a family or employee connection.

Or maybe I was just _hoping_ for something above and beyond marketing...


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## cyclingday (Mar 5, 2021)

I threw my hat in the ring, when I stepped up big, to get these, n o s, in the box, tourist pedals.
Oh, yeah!


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## B607 (Mar 6, 2021)

The German air squadron of Baron von Richthofen  was called the "Flying Circus".  Like maybe a 3-ring circus?  When the US arrived in 1917, they were "throwing their hats in the ring" and became part of the circus.  This might not be correct, but it is one possible explanation.  Gary


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## Jeff54 (Mar 6, 2021)

Oilit said:


> As long as you recognize that it was Eddie Rickenbacker and his squadron that made that insignia famous, before Schwinn ever thought to use it. And as far as the swastika, anybody who uses that these days is identifying with the Nazis, whatever the symbolism may once have been. I remember when "gay" just meant happy and cheerful.



That I didn't know and heck, haven't even been interested in these types of war plains since a child. , I did build a balsa wood  Fokker biplane at 18 B/C just dug them old biplanes. and played with metal and plastic models of The Spitfire , Tigers  and Phantom too. But couldn't afford to build a flying plane  till then. . BTW, {caution, also learned where, why and what the word 'dope' meant. Get chills just thinking about it, Ya donna wanna be sniffing that spit.}

  Regardless,, >> And or or but, Let's toss Eddie's hat in this ring too.















						American Fighter Ace Eddie Rickenbacker Was Flying the Day Great War Ended. Here’s his Touching Account. - The Aviation Geek Club
					

American Fighter Ace Eddie Rickenbacker Was Flying the Day Great War Ended. Here’s his Touching Account.




					theaviationgeekclub.com


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## Oilit (Mar 6, 2021)

Jeff54 said:


> That I didn't know and heck, haven't even been interested in these types of war plains since a child. , I did build a balsa wood  Fokker biplane at 18 B/C just dug them old biplanes. and played with metal and plastic models of The Spitfire , Tigers  and Phantom too. But couldn't afford to build a flying plane  till then. . BTW, {caution, also learned where, why and what the word 'dope' meant. Get chills just thinking about it, Ya donna wanna be sniffing that spit.}
> 
> Regardless,, >> And or or but, Let's toss Eddie's hat in this ring too.
> 
> ...



I'm like you, I've read a lot more about WWII than WWI, but from the little I've read, the WWI planes were dangerous even before anybody started shooting at you! Kind of like ultralights, but without any modern materials or safety equipment. Nice picture, thanks for posting!


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## KevinBrick (Mar 7, 2021)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-vintag...HEAD-BADGE-tag/293860543296?campid=5335809022


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## Schwinny (Jun 29, 2021)

KevinBrick said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-vintag...HEAD-BADGE-tag/293860543296?campid=5335809022
> View attachment 1368767



Hey, Thats my head badge !!
I'd like to know more about it if anyone knows.
I've seen one other and it was in faded and not too good condition.
This one is pretty good.
Thinking about making a bike around it.....
I got it off the CABE Ebay page so its been around here.


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## GTs58 (Jun 30, 2021)

Schwinny said:


> Hey, Thats my head badge !!
> I'd like to know more about it if anyone knows.
> I've seen one other and it was in faded and not too good condition.
> This one is pretty good.
> ...




There have only been three of these badges sold on eBay and all three were from Cabe members. I picked up one of the three that were sold. I read somewhere years ago that these badges were sold over the counter and a little history about them but I'll be damned if I can find that info now. It all began with bicycle racing and Schwinn's Paramount, the only American made racer that was winning the races. I found nothing about them on Waterfords site or Kirts site and I find that really odd. Kirt starts off with 1959 though. There was a Paramount Registry site that started off with the 1938 models and that site is now defunct, so that may have been where I read about this badge. I have a copy of a Registry page one from that site somewhere.


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## Schwinny (Jun 30, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> There have only been three of these badges sold on eBay and all three were from Cabe members. I picked up one of the three that were sold. I read somewhere years ago that these badges were sold over the counter and a little history about them but I'll be damned if I can find that info now. It all began with bicycle racing and Schwinn's Paramount, the only American made racer that was winning the races. I found nothing about them on Waterfords site or Kirts site and I find that really odd. Kirt starts off with 1959 though. There was a Paramount Registry site that started off with the 1938 models and that site is now defunct, so that may have been where I read about this badge. I have a copy of a Registry page one from that site somewhere.



The other one I saw for sale was from a guy out of Idaho, it was on Ebay. I don't know if he was a CABE member. It was faded and not in real good shape. I seem to remember another on a bike for sale and the bike was kind of junky and not one that you would think it should be on. Its little fuzzy so I can't remember the details.
Its a pretty cool head badge. I have been thinking about building a bike around it but its one of those parts that the little devils on my shoulders argue over.
Also pretty hard to build a nice bike out of all American parts anymore if that is the premise.


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## Pedaltherapy (Jun 30, 2021)

catfish said:


> View attachment 1366444I





Oilit said:


> I'm like you, I've read a lot more about WWII than WWI, but from the little I've read, the WWI planes were dangerous even before anybody started shooting at you! Kind of like ultralights, but without any modern materials or safety equipment. Nice picture, thanks for posting!



According to some records fighter pilot had a combat life expectancy of a tad under 3 weeks in WW1 during much of the war. It was with a good deal of American bravado that Rickenbockers unit chose the hat in the ring as their signature logo. A lot of them thought it was past time for Americans to get answer 'the call'. Rickenbocker became a major military and business 'influencer' in the decades after the war and the logo followed him. He had a fascinating career worth reading up on.


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## Pedaltherapy (Jun 30, 2021)

Pedaltherapy said:


> According to some records fighter pilot had a combat life expectancy of a tad under 3 weeks in WW1 during much of the war. It was with a good deal of American bravado that Rickenbockers unit chose the hat in the ring as their signature logo. A lot of them thought it was past time for Americans to get answer 'the call'. Rickenbocker became a major military and business 'influencer' in the decades after the war and the logo followed him. He had a fascinating career worth reading up on.



Just found this old Racer this morning- may go pick up today if owner can meet. Ironic that I read this original post this morning and found this bike only an hour later.


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## Schwinny (Jun 30, 2021)

Pedaltherapy said:


> Just found this old Racer this morning- may go pick up today if owner can meet. Ironic that I read this original post this morning and found this bike only an hour later.
> 
> View attachment 1438645



Just don't think that decal is unusual. All Racers had them from 56' through 71' and there were 100's of thousands of them over that span. Also early Paramounts and Superiors. Many other models too. it was a signature decal on the seat tube.
What is different about the pic of the racer you posted is that is most likely a 50's model. You can tell by the Schwinn seal decal above the Hat in Ring decal. If it has a winged headbadge it is 59' or earlier. 
Speedy decal _"Schwinn" and "Racer" (56'-57') _with a winged headbadge are the early sought after Racers.
_Get It !!_


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## Oilit (Jun 30, 2021)

Pedaltherapy said:


> Just found this old Racer this morning- may go pick up today if owner can meet. Ironic that I read this original post this morning and found this bike only an hour later.
> 
> View attachment 1438645



If the rest of it's in as nice a shape as the decals, you want to get there sooner than later!


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## Pedaltherapy (Jun 30, 2021)

Oilit said:


> If the rest of it's in as nice a shape as the decals, you want to get there sooner than later!





Oilit said:


> If the rest of it's in as nice a shape as the decals, you want to get there sooner than later!



I'll go pick it up next Wed from very nice couple. All the pinstripes are nice and bike is simply old but not ill used. I'll rebuild, polish/lube and plan on giving to my adult daughter. I think it's a handsome bike.


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## Oilit (Jun 30, 2021)

Pedaltherapy said:


> I'll go pick it up next Wed from very nice couple. All the pinstripes are nice and bike is simply old but not ill used. I'll rebuild, polish/lube and plan on giving to my adult daughter. I think it's a handsome bike.
> 
> View attachment 1438714



I agree completely!


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## Schwinny (Jun 30, 2021)

Pedaltherapy said:


> I'll go pick it up next Wed from very nice couple. All the pinstripes are nice and bike is simply old but not ill used. I'll rebuild, polish/lube and plan on giving to my adult daughter. I think it's a handsome bike.
> 
> View attachment 1438714



It's the one,
Check the serial number, but with the Speedy "Schwinn" decal on the downtube, its gonna be a 56' -7 model. Could even be one of the 55' pre models.
I see four things to mention.

Rear tire is wrong size. Looks like a 1-1/4" whereas it should be 1-3/8" Only one kind available now but I'd still replace it if it is a 1-1/4" size.
No built in kickstand which Im sure someone here knows more about than me. But that is unusual.
Shifter cable stop is on the top downtube, and again Im not sure, but I would think it should be on the bottom downtube. Kinda looks like it might have a special two cable guide there so maybe its right for the year.
Too bad its a girls model. But only for us guys.

Great bike, great condition, great score.  👍


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## Pedaltherapy (Jun 30, 2021)

Schwinny said:


> It's the one,
> Check the serial number, but with the Speedy "Schwinn" decal on the downtube, its gonna be a 56' -7 model. Could even be one of the 55' pre models.
> I see four things to mention.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the insight! I've been a heavy weight fan but I think I'd like to have one of these in a men's. Was looking for a Raleigh when I began noticing the upright Schwinns a lot more. I look forward to getting the bike cleaned up - with new rubber.


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## barneyguey (Jun 30, 2021)

Jollyride said:


> That logo signifies Uncle Sam?
> 
> It was logoed on allot of WW1 planes.



WWII planes also.


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## barneyguey (Jun 30, 2021)

Schwinny said:


> The other one I saw for sale was from a guy out of Idaho, it was on Ebay. I don't know if he was a CABE member. It was faded and not in real good shape. I seem to remember another on a bike for sale and the bike was kind of junky and not one that you would think it should be on. Its little fuzzy so I can't remember the details.
> Its a pretty cool head badge. I have been thinking about building a bike around it but its one of those parts that the little devils on my shoulders argue over.
> Also pretty hard to build a nice bike out of all American parts anymore if that is the premise.



I'm the one out of Idaho selling the Hat in the Ring badges. I think they're pretty cool. I also found photos of WWII airplanes with the same logo. I thought they were only found on lightweight Schwinn built bicycles but several people posted photos of heavy weights with the badge.

Here's the nice badge I'm keeping and my other one I have in my collection.


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## Schwinny (Jun 30, 2021)

barneyguey said:


> I'm the one out of Idaho selling the Hat in the Ring badges. I think they're pretty cool. I also found photos of WWII airplanes with the same logo. I thought they were only found on lightweight Schwinn built bicycles but several people posted photos of heavy weights with the badge.
> 
> Here's the nice badge I'm keeping and my other one I have in my collection.
> 
> ...



Excellent!!
I'd like to see a thread of all ALL AMERICANS. Seems like they are some of the rarest Schwinns


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## barneyguey (Jun 30, 2021)

Schwinny said:


> Excellent!!
> I'd like to see a thread of all ALL AMERICANS. Seems like they are some of the rarest Schwinns



I'm taking off right now but when I get home I'll try and find the photos of the heavy weight bikes and post them.


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## Schwinny (Jun 30, 2021)

barneyguey said:


> I'm taking off right now but when I get home I'll try and find the photos of the heavy weight bikes and post them.



That would be great, thanks!
Maybe make a special thread in the "All things Schwinn" category.
Maybe for ALL Americans and Americans discussion only if that will fly. 
It would be a short thread if only for ALL Americans it seems.
I'll get a good clear pic of my badge, its a little cleaner now than it was in the pic above.


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## barneyguey (Jun 30, 2021)

Only one I can find right now. I don't know who posted it. I'll have to thank them. 1940 Dx


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## Schwinny (Jun 30, 2021)

barneyguey said:


> Only one I can find right now. I don't know who posted it. I'll have to thank them. 1940 Dx
> 
> 
> View attachment 1438800View attachment 1438801



See, now that's one thing I wonder. Does the badge mean that all the parts on the bike are American made or does it suggest that the owner/rider is a died I the wool patriot of some sort?
Schwinn did make bicentennial versions of several of its models. But by then, they were deep into the "Approved" parts list that were usually made in some other country. (Germany, France, Japan)
This DX is a great example, and considering its vintage, most likely has nothing but parts that were made in America. All us oldsters know that there were very few imports before the 1960's. Back then imports were status symbols or special in some way. But this DX could just as easily have a hardware store headbadge or a standard Schwinn badge for the year.
What gives it the honor of ALL AMERICAN?
Also, throughout the Schwinn history, the round headbadge was reserved for the lightweights, and later to only the sportier models. How does a heavyweight rate a round headbadge?
A tasty conundrum.


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## barneyguey (Jun 30, 2021)

Schwinny said:


> See, now that's one thing I wonder. Does the badge mean that all the parts on the bike are American made or does it suggest that the owner/rider is a died I the wool patriot of some sort?
> Schwinn did make bicentennial versions of several of its models. But by then, they were deep into the "Approved" parts list that were usually made in some other country. (Germany, France, Japan)
> This DX is a great example, and considering its vintage, most likely has nothing but parts that were made in America. All us oldsters know that there were very few imports before the 1960's. Back then imports were status symbols or special in some way. But this DX could just as easily have a hardware store headbadge or a standard Schwinn badge for the year.
> What gives it the honor of ALL AMERICAN?
> ...



All good questions. I don't know the answer on what gave the honor to certain bicycles. It surprised the heck out of me seeing it on a heavy weight. I also thought the little round badges were a light weight thing. I often learn I was wrong about things I thought I knew. I started changing the way I phrase things.

From what I've read so far. I've been told. As far as I know are all good ways to state an answer. Things may not be like you think.

Example

I thought Mead was a bicycle purchased from catalogs. At least mainly. After researhing the company I found that all kinds of bicycle shops sold Mead bicycles.


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## Schwinny (Jun 30, 2021)

barneyguey said:


> All good questions. I don't know the answer on what gave the honor to certain bicycles. It surprised the heck out of me seeing it on a heavy weight. I also thought the little round badges were a light weight thing. I often learn I was wrong about things I thought I knew. I started changing the way I phrase things.
> 
> From what I've read so far. I've been told. As far as I know are all good ways to state an answer. Things may not be like you think.
> 
> ...



In my experience.... that's right.    🙃


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