# Crescent Model 20 just bought, need info



## Thads Skunk Works (May 5, 2021)

First I want to thank CABE for the site. Just bought this old crutch at the Haysville Ks Swap Meet last Sunday. Never had a bike this old before, gotta lot to learn. Looking for info to restore it. Currently soaking the joints with PB. I need to know about parts needed to complete it, where to get seats & pedals----info like that. Also which parts on it are not original. What were the original colors offered, striping details, which parts were nickel plated, need chain info, on & on. I've had good luck with CABE. Would like to meet the guys who have been so helpful with info. (I probably paid too much for this but it will be a fun project & look to have fun doing the restoration & riding---) Thanks for any info & advice, Thad


----------



## Freqman1 (May 5, 2021)

@Jesse McCauley @New Mexico Brant


----------



## The Carolina Rambler (May 5, 2021)

Thads Skunk Works said:


> First I want to thank CABE for the site. Just bought this old crutch at the Haysville Ks Swap Meet last Sunday. Never had a bike this old before, gotta lot to learn. Looking for info to restore it. Currently soaking the joints with PB. I need to know about parts needed to complete it, where to get seats & pedals----info like that. Also which parts on it are not original. What were the original colors offered, striping details, which parts were nickel plated, need chain info, on & on. I've had good luck with CABE. Would like to meet the guys who have been so helpful with info. (I probably paid too much for this but it will be a fun project & look to have fun doing the restoration & riding---) Thanks for any info & advice, Thad
> 
> View attachment 1404870
> 
> ...



I'm no expert, but I will tell you what I notice about it.  I can tell from the lug patterns that this bike was built before 1900, and likely dates from about 1896 to 99, because after 1899 or so it appears Crescent discontinued frames with the type of lugs found on your bike, and may have even started building frames largely without lugs at all.  I also notice it appears that perhaps in the 1920s or so, the bike had some parts added or replaced to it.  Those parts being the fenders, luggage rack, front handlebar stem, and probably also the largest sprocket on the bike.  The smaller sprockets are original.  I believe this because those are all circa 20s parts.  The rest of the bike appears original 1890s Crescent.  A pretty nice bike, with a great deal of potential!  Nice find, and thanks for showing us!


----------



## The Carolina Rambler (May 5, 2021)

I also notice that the front fork of this bike appears to have some repairs possibly around the top, and I almost wonder if the fork might have been replaced on this bike, because a lot of other Crescent bicycles built during that time have a different style fork with an ornate brazed fork crown, but I could be wrong being how this is a tandem.  As for paint and pinstriping.  Most Crescents at that time were painted black, perhaps with gold pinstriping throughout.  The Forks were often partially nickel plated.  I have attached below some photos from the web showing some pin striping.  I would think that striping along the frame could be highly variable, and largely up to your own preference, but as for the head tube of the bike, they almost always are striped in the way as seen in the below photos, from what I have seen on surviving original paint examples.  You could really doll this bike up and it would look awesome with a dark red or green paint and gold filigree accents and gold and blue striping and box lines!









This last picture is not a Crescent, it is a Rambler, but I am including it just to give you some ideas of how you could paint your bike up and bring it to its best potential and beauty.  This work could be done by hand and would look awesome, a nice example of an original 1890s paint job.


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (May 5, 2021)

The Carolina Rambler said:


> I'm no expert, but I will tell you what I notice about it.  I can tell from the lug patterns that this bike was built before 1900, and likely dates from about 1896 to 99, because after 1899 or so it appears Crescent discontinued frames with the type of lugs found on your bike, and may have even started building frames largely without lugs at all.  I also notice it appears that perhaps in the 1920s or so, the bike had some parts added or replaced to it.  Those parts being the fenders, luggage rack, front handlebar stem, and probably also the largest sprocket on the bike.  The smaller sprockets are original.  I believe this because those are all circa 20s parts.  The rest of the bike appears original 1890s Crescent.  A pretty nice bike, with a great deal of potential!  Nice find, and thanks for showing us!



Thanks for the info. The rear seat post doesn't look original to me. I was told by the guy I bought it from that the front stem was from a Harley or Indian bike. Any idea where I might find parts ?


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (May 5, 2021)

The Carolina Rambler said:


> I also notice that the front fork of this bike appears to have some repairs possibly around the top, and I almost wonder if the fork might have been replaced on this bike, because a lot of other Crescent bicycles built during that time have a different style fork with an ornate brazed fork crown, but I could be wrong being how this is a tandem.  As for paint and pinstriping.  Most Crescents at that time were painted black, perhaps with gold pinstriping throughout.  The Forks were often partially nickel plated.  I have attached below some photos from the web showing some pin striping.  I would think that striping along the frame could be highly variable, and largely up to your own preference, but as for the head tube of the bike, they almost always are striped in the way as seen in the below photos, from what I have seen on surviving original paint examples.  You could really doll this bike up and it would look awesome with a dark red or green paint and gold filigree accents and gold and blue striping and box lines!
> 
> View attachment 1404899
> 
> ...



Pictures are great, this will be a fun project. Thanks, Thad


----------



## Blue Streak (May 5, 2021)

No. 20 Tandem from 1897 Crescent Catalog:


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (May 5, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> No. 20 Tandem from 1897 Crescent Catalog:
> 
> View attachment 1404888
> 
> View attachment 1404889



Thanks, that will help identify parts. Do you want to sell the catalog or would you send pics of the pages ?


----------



## Blue Streak (May 5, 2021)

I sold the original catalog but just PM'd you a pdf scan of it.


----------



## The Carolina Rambler (May 5, 2021)

Thads Skunk Works said:


> Thanks for the info. The rear seat post doesn't look original to me. I was told by the guy I bought it from that the front stem was from a Harley or Indian bike. Any idea where I might find parts ?



Parts for this are a little tricky given their age.  I would reckomend just periodically searching for "TOC Bicycle parts" on ebay and watching for ads on here.  I see 1890s seats like this bike would have had, come up for sale probably once every few weeks, needing restoration typically.  As for the front stem, if you choose to replace it and sell it, it would probably sell for a pretty penny cause its a deluxe long stem.  The second stem on the bike I think is an original, and it looks like the stem on my Crescent mens bike.  Those stems are not so common.  Really if you choose to keep the parts it has, minus the fenders, it looks pretty good as is with those parts.  Depends on how much time you want to invest into it.  Wood wheels, or at least rims that you can build into wheels seem pretty abundant.  This would have taken the old wooden tubular rims.  They're not typically very expensive, but they almost always require some restoration and reconditioning to be made safely usable {safe is a relative term with 120 year old wood  }.  Lots of choices on handlebars, wood ones are the coolest.   I have found more recently that when you go to reupholstering a seat, if you do that part yourself which is a good deal of work, you can get the horsehair padding you need out of 1940s and older car seats in junk yards, torn up ones.  I am rebuilding some 28 inch wood wheels, and I found suitable spokes on 27 1/2 road bike wheels which cost next to nothing at scrap yards.  There are ways to save a dollar here and there on restorations like this.  Keep us posted with your progress as you go along in the restoration.!


----------



## bikejunk (May 5, 2021)

Finding original parts for a toca tandem is 2 x rougher than a regular bike for obvious reasons  - our bike was only missing the rear hub - lol 2 years hubs are special to tandems a particularly a Crescent   - good luck


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (May 5, 2021)

bikejunk said:


> Finding original parts for a toca tandem is 2 x rougher than a regular bike for obvious reasons  - our bike was only missing the rear hub - lol 2 years hubs are special to tandems a particularly a Crescent   - good luck
> 
> View attachment 1404982
> 
> View attachment 1404996



Thanks, great picures.


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (May 9, 2021)

After a week of soaking with PB I have started taking this thing apart. So far so good until I got to the cranks. Got the nut off the rear crank but not the front. It's going to take another 6 pack, maybe tomorrow. Rear seat post is obviously wrong, I feel fortunate that the front stem is good. Are there repro parts available ?


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (May 9, 2021)

Well, got into this thing. Removed posts, stems, etc & media blasted them. Having trouble removing the front crank but it'll happen. Thanks to Blue Streaks copy of the 1897 catalog & pics of other similar Crescents I am learning some things. There was a "Juvenile" model that used 26" wheels & appears to have a shorter frame. It's the only model I see with the same front fork as mine. Also the chain/cranks arrangement. The tube on my front fork as well as the rear steering tube have been lengthened on this bike. Looks like some repairs were made using those parts from a Juvenile model.   The difference in frame height & fork is apparent in the pics attached. You guys who already know all this please correct me if I'm wrong & feel free to tell me a few things. Thanks for any help & advice, Thad


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Jun 6, 2021)

Well thanks so much to Blue Streak for the 1897 & 1898 copies of the Crescent catalogs. Looking close at the pics throughout the 98 catalog reveals some interesting info on the big sprocket & the front fork. Pg's 21, 22 & several other pages showing non-tandem models show a sprocket that is different from the pic of the model 20 tandem. It's a common looking 5 spoke design. Page 11 shows a fork like the one on my tandem. I'm thinking that these may have been used on model 20 tandem "Juvenile" models. The Juvenile models were made in 22" frame size with 26" wheels among other sizes. Seems these parts on my bike are Crescent parts but from a smaller juvenile model 20. Another thing that points that way is that the steer tubes on both the fork & rear on my bike have both been lengthened 2". I have found a sprocket (5 spoke style) from a girls Crescent that is like the one shown in the cat. At this point I am thinking I will restore this bike as a juvenile Model 20. Any input? anyone? I'm open to all suggestions. Thanks, Thad.     
Oh yeah, another thing. Why are so many of the TOC bikes so tall? Using a 24" frame with 7" crank arms plus another 3 1'2" to the top of the seat in it's lowest position adds up to 34 1/2". Then adding about 4" pedal ground clearance makes these bikes about the right height for Sasquatch.


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Nov 5, 2021)

Paint & nickel plating is done. Getting a little striping done then I'll put it together. Some parts are not "correct" (1899 Crescent model 20) but if I wait until I find those it will never be built. If anyone knows of original parts for this thing please let me know. Acme in K.C. did the plating, they were good to deal with.


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Nov 22, 2021)

Coming together


----------



## Archie Sturmer (Nov 22, 2021)

Nice work.

Still kind of confusing about how the catalog tandem (plus +1 pictured) bicycles’ “*re*-*transmit*” drive train might have worked, with both sets of chains going to a 2-sprocket hub.

Maybe the same connected-gears concept but just connected differently.


----------



## Waffenrad (Nov 27, 2021)

I realize you probably just went to some trouble and expense to replate the handlebars, but I think you can find much closer matches than those big curved cruiser bars.   TOC bars were much smaller and simpler, and aren't hard to find at swap meets.  Even some 3-speed bars would be closer.


----------



## The Carolina Rambler (Nov 27, 2021)

Thads Skunk Works said:


> Coming together
> 
> View attachment 1516263
> 
> View attachment 1516264



Holy Smoke, that's looking really good!  I've been watching this project since you first posted, and it looks like you've just about got it.  Keep up the good work, and be sure to show us once its ready for action!


----------



## New Mexico Brant (Nov 28, 2021)

Waffenrad said:


> I realize you probably just went to some trouble and expense to replate the handlebars, but I think you can find much closer matches than those big curved cruiser bars.   TOC bars were much smaller and simpler, and aren't hard to find at swap meets.  Even some 3-speed bars would be closer.



@Jesse McCauley or I could match up a pair of TOC bars that would look fantastic on this bicycle rather than using those huge 1930's U-bars.  As Waffenrad said, TOC bars are pretty easy to locate.  Why tart up you lovely bike with something that is so grossly wrong?


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Nov 28, 2021)

Waffenrad said:


> I realize you probably just went to some trouble and expense to replate the handlebars, but I think you can find much closer matches than those big curved cruiser bars.   TOC bars were much smaller and simpler, and aren't hard to find at swap meets.  Even some 3-speed bars would be closer.



These bars are just some I had. I'll decide what to use after I ride it. Also looking for seats & pedals. ( This is Kansas, only 1 swap meet per year around here & you won't find TOC parts there) Thanks for the comment & if you know where to get parts for this thing I'd appreciate a heads up.


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Nov 28, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> @Jesse McCauley or I could match up a pair of TOC bars that would look fantastic on this bicycle rather than using those huge 1930's U-bars.  As Waffenrad said, TOC bars are pretty easy to locate.  Why tart up you lovely bike with something that is so grossly wrong?



I kinda like them. ( I asked you for some parts last July , you never answered)


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Nov 28, 2021)

The Carolina Rambler said:


> Holy Smoke, that's looking really good!  I've been watching this project since you first posted, and it looks like you've just about got it.  Keep up the good work, and be sure to show us once its ready for action!



Thanks for the comment. The striping came out great. I hesitate to post on this site, usually just get nonsense from the experts. It would be nice to put this bike back all original but I haven't had much luck finding original parts. If I find them in the future I can replace the non-originals but I aint holding my breath on that. This has been a fun project.


----------



## Waffenrad (Nov 28, 2021)

Not as cheap as a swap meet of course, but TOC parts are available on both theCabe and on eBay.  Below are a few possibilities right now for handlebars.  Two pair of matched pedals certainly won't be cheap, but if you're willing to start with mis-matched ones they're not too hard to find on the internet.  You can also call or put the word out to known antique parts dealers, like Curtis Anthony in Philadelphia, Sam Fitzsimmons in Baltimore, or Greg Barron in CA (for repros), to name just a few.  There are many more in these forums.  You can also bid remotely on parts lots at the annual Copake antique bicycle auction.  Shipping and the 18% buyer's premium will drive up your cost to Kansas, but deals can be had.  If you plan to ride your tandem when you finish it, consider joining The Wheelmen.  They have active classified ads in their newsletter, and their last annual meet before the pandemic was in Missouri, not too far from you.









						TOC Handlebars W/One Cork Grip | Sell - Trade: Bicycle Parts, Accessories, Ephemera
					

Pair of TOC Handlebars with one cork grip remaining. Pitted and a little banged up at stem junction (see photo) but still very useable. Has patina ! $100 shipped lower 48 States. PayPal F&F or Money Order please. PM any questions and don't reply here. Thank You




					thecabe.com
				











						Early TOC nickel plated handlebars, stem w/grips | Sell - Trade: Bicycle Parts, Accessories, Ephemera
					

Offering this up for trade or partial trade. Send me a PM if interested. Thank you.




					thecabe.com
				




https://www.ebay.com/itm/275006949272?campid=5335809022https://www.ebay.com/itm/133885755068?campid=5335809022


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Nov 28, 2021)

Waffenrad said:


> Not as cheap as a swap meet of course, but TOC parts are available on both theCabe and on eBay.  Below are a few possibilities right now for handlebars.  Two pair of matched pedals certainly won't be cheap, but if you're willing to start with mis-matched ones they're not too hard to find on the internet.  You can also call or put the word out to known antique parts dealers, like Curtis Anthony in Philadelphia, Sam Fitzsimmons in Baltimore, or Greg Barron in CA (for repros), to name just a few.  There are many more in these forums.  You can also bid remotely on parts lots at the annual Copake antique bicycle auction.  Shipping and the 18% buyer's premium will drive up your cost to Kansas, but deals can be had.  If you plan to ride your tandem when you finish it, consider joining The Wheelmen.  They have active classified ads in their newsletter, and their last annual meet before the pandemic was in Missouri, not too far from you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats good info, thanks for this. I'll settle for repros. First time I've seen the names you mentioned, I'll get with them. I went to a swap meet in KC Mo. a couple of months ago. Met some good people but stuff there was all post WW2. I haven't been to the one they used to have in Springfield Mo. for several years. Used to see some great deals on balloon parts there. I had forgotton about that meet. A guy there is in the Wheelmen named James Allen.  Your note got me thinking about him. Thanks for some good constructive advice, good luck, Thad


----------



## GiovanniLiCalsi (Nov 28, 2021)

1897 Crescent bicycle rear axle dropouts had grooved adjustments and grooved plates for adjusting chain tension.


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Nov 28, 2021)

GiovanniLiCalsi said:


> 1897 Crescent bicycle rear axle dropouts had grooved adjustments and grooved plates for adjusting chain tension.
> 
> View attachment 1519061
> 
> ...



Do you have any parts to sell for these bikes ?


----------



## GiovanniLiCalsi (Nov 28, 2021)

No parts for sale, sorry.
I am going to have a few wooden handlebars stems made. It’s a 2-piece stem, only made for the Crescent wooden bars.


----------



## New Mexico Brant (Nov 30, 2021)

Thads Skunk Works said:


> I kinda like them. ( I asked you for some parts last July , you never answered)



Kinda like when I messaged you twice about traveling through Kansas and you never answered...


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Nov 30, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Kinda like when I messaged you twice about traveling through Kansas and you never answered...



Oops, sorry. Guess I deserved that


----------



## Thads Skunk Works (Dec 10, 2021)

Merry Christmas


----------

