# Let's talk about HVLP mini spray guns



## TattooedHead (Feb 19, 2015)

I've grown completely tired of rattle can paint jobs. It seems as though they take forever, and no matter what,  never seem to last as well, or look as good as quality paint job done at a "shop". 

So I recently purchased an HVLP sprayer.  It's a Finex FX1000 mini HVLP sprayer, not the cheapest, but certainly not the most expensive, like a SATA. 

I'm new to the spray gun game however, and was hoping that some of you might have some tips on things like:

• Tip Sizes - What's best for primers, bases, colors and clears
• Paint sources - House of Kolor, etc...
• Prep - surface prep, (media blast or strippers etc...)
• Painting  (techniques, #of coats, etc...)
• Finish - sanding and buffing

What I know sup far is limited to a lot of research online, and a couple of books published in 1984. Which means, not much, especially these days with paint technology changing as much as it has. 

I know that after taking the frame back to raw, that a primer/sealer should be applied to prevent rust. Allowing that to dry completely, you then sand out any imperfections so your basecoat had the best chance to lay flat. I know that wet sanding orange peel in the color is important as well. But that's about where my experience stops.

I'm not saying I NEED a show quality paint job, but my perfectionism and OCD sure would like it to look better than any paint job I've managed to do with a rattle can. I'm hoping that there's some experienced painters here that can give me some help. 

I know experience and technique is 75% of the job, and that practice makes perfect, but a little background knowledge and pointers probably won't hurt either.


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## Boris (Feb 19, 2015)

Maybe the moderators could move your question to the "Restoration Tips" section.


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## TattooedHead (Feb 19, 2015)

Hmm. Maybe they should. It probably goes better over there.


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## GTs58 (Feb 19, 2015)

This should be fun. If using a gun is new to you then I'd suggest getting in some time using it on none important items with a low cost paint. Painting a bike frame is not the same as painting your front door and it's definitely not like using an on/off spray can. Their is one thing that comes first and is very important. The paint viscosity or thinning and once you get that down everything else is a piece of cake, kinda. I'm currently using a touch up cup gun spraying commercial synthetic enamel at work and there are many, and I mean many things involved in doing a good paint job. Maybe you could practice on some of the kid's bikes in neighborhood and make a few bucks at the same time.  What size volume tip came with your gun? 

A couple suggestions. Make sure you have a compressor that can keep up with your volume, get a moisture/oil filter and always drain your tank prior to painting. Also, having lots of hose before the filter helps quite a bit depending on your local environment and weather.


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## TattooedHead (Feb 20, 2015)

I got a 1.4 tip with my gun and ordered a 1.2 as well that hasn't arrived. I figure both of those tips should be able to spray HOK paints and primers, but I've been wrong before. 

I've also got a 33gal craftsman compressor that does 6.8cfm @ 40psi. 

Do you have any suggestions for "practice" paints I could use? I've got tons of old junk frames just lying around that I could practice on, so I don't burn up expensive HOK paints. 

I live in Key West, so environment is pretty warm all year round  (today not included, we dropped below 50°) but humidity can be a problem, especially layer in the summer.  A moisture filter as well as particulate filters are a must.  Any suggestions on what to get for these? And how much hose before filters should I have?


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## redline1968 (Feb 20, 2015)

Using 33 gal compressor is plenty for the hvlp  I would attach a full hose to the compressor first then attach a pressure regulator/filter setup then another full hose. This way the water form heat will cool down before entering the pressure/filter. Next be sure you have a filter attached to the gun with a small pressure regulator for fine tuning the gun. That way you get the right pressure for the paint to flow nicely.  I do 3 -4 coats of paint to be sure of full coverage and wet sanding won't cut into the primer.. Read follow instructions carefully. Single stage is best on bikes. Factory finish. Light


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## TattooedHead (Feb 20, 2015)

Thanks redline I appreciate the tips!


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## Djshakes (Feb 20, 2015)

If you are going to get serious you need two guns.  A painting gun and a piece of crap for priming.  

For painting I shot with the Finex gun you have for years.  Decent gun and better than a harbor freight bottom feeder POS or even their HVLP.  However, after years of using the finex which was a caddy compared to the others mentioned I bought a used Sata touchup gun off of craigslist for $200. I broke it all down and cleaned it.  OMG!!!!! It craps all over the finex.  The first trigger pull I literally looked down at the gun and said "Holy Shxx".   It's the Bentley of guns.  Also, major plus is using the 3m PPS system.  There is an attachment you can use in place of the stock cup.  This can probably be purchased for the Finex as well.  Check out 3m PPS on youtube and learn about it.  You will save a ton in cleaning solvents as well as messy cleanups.

My finex gun is now my primer gun.  If you plan on painting a lot get a Sata. I bet you can get a used one off of ebay or clist cheap.

However, I still know professional painters shooting with POS harbor freight guns.  Ignorance is bliss I guess. Once you eat steak for dinner you will no longer want hamburger helper.


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## okozzy (Feb 20, 2015)

Mr. Tattooed H. 
thanks for the post as I am in the same phase as you and I'm learning lot's from the responses.


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## TattooedHead (Feb 20, 2015)

Thanks Djshakes. I just actually purchased another Finex today  knowing I would probably need two guns. I figure this new one with a 1.4 tip will be a good starter to prime with.  I'll keep a look out for a SATA somewhere. I'm heading to YouTube right now to learn about the  3M stuff. I've read a little about it, but it will be nice to see it in action. They do make an attachment for the Finex for it as well, so it will definitely be something to consider. I really like being creative with my paint schemes, stuff you wouldn't normally see on a bicycle, so I'm excited to get started and see what I can do.

Here's a question, how much primer and paint do you figure I would need per frame? Something tells me a quart would be too much...

And what's the life span of an open can of paint? Assuming you seal it back up, and keep it in a warm dark place?


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## TattooedHead (Feb 21, 2015)

Also, when you speak of the SATA hvlp, do you mean the SataJet 4000? That's the one I seem to raff the most positive reviews of.


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## bikeman76 (Feb 21, 2015)

*[/Air PressureB]
Another important factor is air pressure. Before painting I will test the adjustments on a large piece of cardboard. Most paint manufacturers will give you a recommended pressure for an HVLP gun which is very low but this is measured at the fluid tip and you have no way of checking this that I know of.
 My regulator/dryer on the wall is set to about 80 psi to get plenty of volume to the gun. My regulator at the gun inlet is set to 28-38 psi. Open your fan size adjustment and fluid volume adjustment screws on the gun about a turn and check the spray pattern. Compare it to the chart above and make necessary changes. Your fan size should of course be made smaller when painting a bike so you don't waste paint. Your pressure will vary with your compressor, air lines and spray gun.  It's not that hard with a little practice. Good luck ! Joe*


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## Djshakes (Feb 22, 2015)

The sata minijet and 4000 are pretty much the same from my understanding.  

You will NOT need a full quart of paint per bike unless you are really spraying heavy. I use about a half a quart. I like to put on a little more than normal because if you burn through when color sanding you will smash the bike out of frustration.  

Primer depends on how pitted the frame is. But you thin it out quite a bit before spray so I would think about a half quart max per deluxe bike.  Spray it on heavy and don't worry about runs.  It doesn't have to be pretty. The key is to get enough on. Then you will sand most of it off.  Heavily pitted bikes might require priming, sanding, priming again.


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## redline1968 (Feb 22, 2015)

I use a dp k200 or equivalent filler primer surfacer after a etching primer on parts if there is a lot of small pits in the part. This increases the chance of chipping and will need to be painted soon after if you use a base coat clear paint. If not it will peal off. If no pits the use a etching primer the fill some tiny spots with filler over the primer. It's non sand able but you can sand it just not so easy. Then paint it.  This ensures the paint will adhere better and slightly harder to chip. I have a sata I love it's the best gun but costs a lot not for frames but cars is best for it. For frames I'd use a smaller gun like a touch up. A cheaper gun will do as long as you clean it up thoroughly not Chinese specials they are junk must be fairly priced and easy to clean.


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## Djshakes (Feb 22, 2015)

And your paint should last a very long time if you just put the lid on right.  I have tons of paint.  Man, not sure what I am going to do with all my paint.  I haven't painted in a while and haven't used any of my equipment.


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## TattooedHead (Feb 22, 2015)

You guys are great! Thanks for all the advice and help, I appreciate it.  I'm going to order some paint tomorrow, and paint a few test frames, but here soon, when I've actually painted a 'good' frame, I'll post some pics, here, and elsewhere in the forum.


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## GTs58 (Feb 22, 2015)

TattooedHead said:


> You guys are great! Thanks for all the advice and help, I appreciate it.  I'm going to order some paint tomorrow, and paint a few test frames, but here soon, when I've actually painted a 'good' frame, I'll post some pics, here, and elsewhere in the forum.




You may have some luck with getting free automotive paint that was left over. Call a few of the high volume body/paint shops in your area and see if they will give you some old paint for practicing. Ask them for the type of paint that you plan on using for your projects so that you can get an idea of how it sprays.


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## Wayne Adam (Feb 23, 2015)

*Imo*

This is just my opinion, and most probably irrelevant to you. I still use siphon feed guns for all of my restorations. I prefer siphon feed over HVLP because they are 
without a doubt superior. Unfortunately the "Government" "EPA" has outlawed these guns in most states including mine. I have painted professionally for 43 years
doing custom paint and airbrushing. Siphon Feed gives you a much finer spray because it uses much more air. The EPA decided that this created too much air bourn
pollutants so they are making everyone use HVLP ( High Volume Low Pressure) guns. Just from the description alone, you can tell that the HVLP lays on a heaver coat of paint with less air pressure. Therefore, you, the painter have much less discretion with the amount of paint and force used to apply. Fortunately airbrushes are still siphon feed.
I have a collection of excellent vintage Devilbiss spray guns including very small guns for detail work. I have no neighbors and no one can see my location, so I can still use my guns as I please, You can still buy excellent vintage siphon feed guns at swap meets and probably on the internet. Back in the early 70s, I airbrushed and painted many murals on
our "Hippy" vans. I am 60 now, and those days are gone, but at least I can still paint with my original equipment. The government has taken enough away from us including incandescent light bulb, what will be next!.

AGAIN...This is my opinion along with some actual facts, so please don't get pissed off at me and write nasty replies......................Wayne


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## catfish (Feb 23, 2015)

Great info. 



Djshakes said:


> If you are going to get serious you need two guns.  A painting gun and a piece of crap for priming.
> 
> For painting I shot with the Finex gun you have for years.  Decent gun and better than a harbor freight bottom feeder POS or even their HVLP.  However, after years of using the finex which was a caddy compared to the others mentioned I bought a used Sata touchup gun off of craigslist for $200. I broke it all down and cleaned it.  OMG!!!!! It craps all over the finex.  The first trigger pull I literally looked down at the gun and said "Holy Shxx".   It's the Bentley of guns.  Also, major plus is using the 3m PPS system.  There is an attachment you can use in place of the stock cup.  This can probably be purchased for the Finex as well.  Check out 3m PPS on youtube and learn about it.  You will save a ton in cleaning solvents as well as messy cleanups.
> 
> ...


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## catfish (Feb 23, 2015)

This is great info! Going to print this out and post it in my spray booth. 



bikeman76 said:


> View attachment 197836
> *[/Air PressureB]
> Another important factor is air pressure. Before painting I will test the adjustments on a large piece of cardboard. Most paint manufacturers will give you a recommended pressure for an HVLP gun which is very low but this is measured at the fluid tip and you have no way of checking this that I know of.
> My regulator/dryer on the wall is set to about 80 psi to get plenty of volume to the gun. My regulator at the gun inlet is set to 28-38 psi. Open your fan size adjustment and fluid volume adjustment screws on the gun about a turn and check the spray pattern. Compare it to the chart above and make necessary changes. Your fan size should of course be made smaller when painting a bike so you don't waste paint. Your pressure will vary with your compressor, air lines and spray gun.  It's not that hard with a little practice. Good luck ! Joe*


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## redline1968 (Feb 23, 2015)

Siphon feed is out dated.  It wastes too much paint uses more energy to spray.  It takes 10lbs of air to paint a car with a hvlp compared to 45-50 with a pot gun.


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## Wayne Adam (Feb 23, 2015)

*redline1968*

Siphon feed is only out dated if you don't know how to spray. If you are a truly talented painter, you can have more control of paint volume, finer fans,
and better outcome with siphon feed. Who cares if it takes more air pressure?. Is the extra air costing you money? I can shoot with more air or less air for different results.
Back in the day when I sprayed all of my murals and finishes with lacquer, you would not be able to apply it with an HVLP. "High Volume" is not what I'm after. I'm not looking to cake on the most paint in the quickest time. HVPL is the reason that most of the new cars and cars being repaired at body shop look like crap.
Just my opinion as a talented artist and seasoned painter. Anyone can use what they want and perhaps HVLP is best for the new painter.......Wayne


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## TattooedHead (Feb 23, 2015)

Hey Wayne, thanks for that input, and believe me, no trash talking here, I'm just trying to soak up all the info I can.

Wouldn't the volume of paint being spayed depend on the set up of the gun? I feel like it probably would. Is there a way on an HVLP to reduce the flow, but still get a solid pattern out of the tip?


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## redline1968 (Feb 23, 2015)

Wayne Adam said:


> Siphon feed is only out dated if you don't know how to spray. If you are a truly talented painter, you can have more control of paint volume, finer fans,
> and better outcome with siphon feed. Who cares if it takes more air pressure?. Is the extra air costing you money? I can shoot with more air or less air for different results.
> Back in the day when I sprayed all of my murals and finishes with lacquer, you would not be able to apply it with an HVLP. "High Volume" is not what I'm after. I'm not looking to cake on the most paint in the quickest time. HVPL is the reason that most of the new cars and cars being repaired at body shop look like crap.
> Just my opinion as a talented artist and seasoned painter. Anyone can use what they want and perhaps HVLP is best for the new painter.......Wayne




Truth is in the sauce.  Back in the day is gone...tomorrow it's water base paints. Hvpl is the most efficient way to paint.  you apply more material on the object with low pressure than the pot spray. It's easier to control  and no drips.  That's too bad...I understand some older people like to stay with with the old ways and Change scares them..And that's too bad  But if you prefer to keep up with the industry new paints  hvpl is it.
Body shops vary in who they hire not he paint gun.


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## Djshakes (Feb 23, 2015)

You can adjust the amount of volume on an HVLP gun just like a Siphon.  To say one sprays heavier than the other is rather ignorant.  I have shot with both and you can still buy siphon guns in CA.  HVLP guns are called high volume because they shoot more paint with less air.  This is because GRAVITY.  That is it.  More air is necessary to draw the paint up fighting gravity in a siphon gun. That is all.  The tips are the same, the paint is the same, and in fact I have never heard of a TOOL (gun) being banned.  What is banned are the types of paint, like Lacquer, acrylics, etc.


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## Wayne Adam (Feb 24, 2015)

*redline1968*

First of all, water based auto paints suck. With water based paints, you can't achieve depth, you can't get that mirror finish. Do you think that all of the custom painters you see
 on TV and in reality are using Water Bourne paints?, Well, they are not. Lacquer was amazing, but a lot of work. Then came single stage which can still be applied, sanded and buffed
to perfection. You can still go into any auto paint supplier and buy Centari, PPG or any single stage or multi stage paint.
 Bottom line is this...I don't give a damn what paint or what gun any one uses. You can use what you like the best. But, you cannot in any way discredit the high quality, mirror finish
of a good acrylic enamel paint finish. 
                 Again, I don't care what you do.


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## redline1968 (Feb 24, 2015)

Ha........ ;0


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## redline1968 (Feb 24, 2015)

Wayne Adam said:


> First of all, water based auto paints suck. With water based paints, you can't achieve depth, you can't get that mirror finish. Do you think that all of the custom painters you see
> on TV and in reality are using Water Bourne paints?, Well, they are not. Lacquer was amazing, but a lot of work. Then came single stage which can still be applied, sanded and buffed
> to perfection. You can still go into any auto paint supplier and buy Centari, PPG or any single stage or multi stage paint.
> Bottom line is this...I don't give a damn what paint or what gun any one uses. You can use what you like the best. But, you cannot in any way discredit the high quality, mirror finish
> ...




Ha ....it's not your thread fool ;0.  where can you get lacquer.. Mexico?


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## GTs58 (Feb 24, 2015)

redline1968 said:


> Ha ....it's not your thread fool ;0.  where can you get lacquer.. Mexico?




Actually, you can buy it at AutoZone or OReilly's, limited colors that are pre mixed pre thinned in a quart can. A few years ago I purchased two pints of acrylic lacquer at Space Age auto paint supply so it's still out there.


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## redline1968 (Feb 24, 2015)

Thanks I didn't know that.


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## TattooedHead (Feb 24, 2015)

From the reading I've done, the government made the switch on sprayers because environmentally an HVLP whiny put as much toxicity into the air from overspray, etc....

Paint technology, although being refined and increasing in quality over the years, hasn't really changed much.  You can still by enamel, single stages, and bc/clear systems. 

Of course, Ithis is only things I've read, surely there are experienced peeps of there who could shed some more light on the differences.


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## TattooedHead (Feb 24, 2015)

Oops.... *HVLP which....


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## GTs58 (Feb 24, 2015)

There was never an issue with the enamel paint, only lacquer. As far as the siphon cup guns go, they are still for sale all over this state.


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## Djshakes (Feb 25, 2015)

GTs58 said:


> There was never an issue with the enamel paint, only lacquer. As far as the siphon cup guns go, they are still for sale all over this state.




Move to the communist state of CA and you will only be able to get Acrylic Urethane.


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## TattooedHead (Feb 25, 2015)

Well, since we're on the subject, can anybody explain the differences in paint to me? I suppose the mossy important question is which is the strongest, longest lazing?


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## GTs58 (Feb 25, 2015)

TattooedHead said:


> Well, since we're on the subject, can anybody explain the differences in paint to me? I suppose the mossy important question is which is the strongest, longest lazing?




That's a loaded question and you'll probably get ten different answers. I live in the Valley of the *Sun* and nothing lasts here if it's left outside. Acrylic enamel metallic fades in two years, Base/clear lasts 8-10 years "maybe" with a factory paint job then the clear coat is flying off as you're going down the road. I've seen repaints with the new urethane paint products last a whopping three years and then a total repaint is needed again. Years ago I painted my 67 Chevelle's lower body Marina Blue with acrylic enamel. I painted the roof a light blue solid with acrylic lacquer. In three years the body was faded to Elkhart Blue (silver), the paint was faded and dead and I could not bring the color or the paint back. The roof still looked new and it still looked good years later when I dumped the car.
After I hit the rear bumper on another Chevy truck I started to fix the damage on my truck. The original color was babypoop yellow with white and I hated that color. I decided to do a total make over and repainted it the 77 only GMC colors. The interior was shot with lacquer and the exterior in acrylic enamel. That paint was tough as nails and it still looked really good after ten years of neglect and being outside 100% of the time. The lacquer and enamel metallic paints do not last here but the solid colors definitely do not take the beating like the metallic colors. The new paints in my opinion are soft, at least the clear, and the clear cannot take the sun but it sure looks damn nice when it's fresh, or before it gets it's first sunburn.


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## Wayne Adam (Feb 25, 2015)

*redline1968*

Hey Redline1968
 Don't call me a fool ever!. I will post my comments and opinions anytime and anywhere I want. Who the hell made you boss? Unlike you, I have never once been rude to anyone on this or any forum.
So, if you don't have anything nice or constructive to say, then just shut the hell up!


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## TattooedHead (Feb 25, 2015)

+1 to that.  

There's really no point in any name calling or anything like that. It's supposed to be a learning experience for me,  and I'm here to soak up the positive information I can garner, and people's different perspectives on everything.  I'm sure once I've assimilated and tried a lot of things, I will have found something that works for me, and produces the finest paint jobs I'm capable of doing. And the only way I think that's going to happen is if I talk to as many painters as I can. 

So let's keep it civil, and just stick to the facts. I'm sure I'm not the only one reading and learning from this post.


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## redline1968 (Feb 26, 2015)

Hey Wayne don't threaten me  and call me names on the private messages . Try to make me look like the instigator ..wrong...That doesn't look like it to me. Giving up to date and quality info is more important to me for a good start to help others not to insult or bruise feelings.  It's  too bad your private messages don't reflect the comment posted on here.


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## Djshakes (Feb 26, 2015)

Wayne Adam said:


> Hey Redline1968
> Don't call me a fool ever!. I will post my comments and opinions anytime and anywhere I want. Who the hell made you boss? Unlike you, I have never once been rude to anyone on this or any forum.
> So, if you don't have anything nice or constructive to say, then just shut the hell up!




He put a wink symbol (;0) after the word "fool" in his post to show he was joking.  Man people on the cabe are uptight.


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## TattooedHead (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm all about the up to date information about PAINTING. The rest of the bs bums me out and makes me think there's too much ego getting in the way. And in my experience, I try to avoid anything driven by excessive ego. 

Hopefully we can get over ourselves enough to keep proliferating accurate information. Especially for people like me who really want to learn as much as possible as he can.


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## Djshakes (Feb 26, 2015)

[video=youtube;CIC2fuUAP4E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIC2fuUAP4E[/video]


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## TattooedHead (Feb 26, 2015)

Oh yeah, the PPS system arrived yesterday. I'm excited to spray with it. It's going to make things a bit easier I think.


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## TattooedHead (Feb 26, 2015)

Well, maybe not the actual painting part.... but clean up for sure.


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## sfhschwinn (Feb 28, 2015)

I'm glad I came across this here. I bought an HVLP Husky gun to restore a phantom. I am using Sherwin Williams enamel paint. However there are no instructions I can find for thinning enamel so it sprays right. In October I tried spraying it three different time and each time it comes out in blotches or does not come out at all. Nothing I have read online states how much thinner is needed for enamel paint. I believe I have already diluted the paint 10%. 
So I need two things:
1. what is the ratio of paint to thinner
2. when the paint dries, will the amount of thinner added affect the glossiness of the paint. I am trying to make the bike as close to show quality as possible. This is my first time using a spray gun. 

Other info- I have a husky compressor with a separate filter and regulator as suggested. 
Thanks for any help!


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## redline1968 (Feb 28, 2015)

Sounds like two problems one might be the air pressure is not enough. Try turning the pressure up slowly till the paint flows out nicely the adjust the pattern. Or you have a plugged spray nozzle. Look at the nozzle see if the holes are plugged.  As for the ratio  I'm not sure with that brand but  this might work ...... 8 parts paint
                                                             2 parts reducer
                                                              1 part hardener
Make sure the reducer is adaptable to the weather temp conditions.
If you use too much air the paint will dull and require a sand and redo. Not enough will run.  If go light coats then let each flash dry. Light is better than heavy.


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## GTs58 (Feb 28, 2015)

If the paint is not reduced correctly it doesn't matter how much pressure you use, it will still come out in blotches. Similar to spraying a latex paint with that type of gun. Sounds like the paint is to thick and you need more reducer. What type of SW's enamel are you using, an industrial/marine enamel? Or maybe the alkyd enamel used around the house? They make more than 10 different types of enamel so having someone here tell you what you need without a clue of what you are using would be null. And what does it say on the can to use for thinning?


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## sfhschwinn (Mar 1, 2015)

I am using the alkyd enamel. the gun is new and I cleaned it well.


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## GTs58 (Mar 1, 2015)

sfhschwinn said:


> I am using the alkyd enamel. the gun is new and I cleaned it well.




So the paint is not an automotive paint then. Apples and oranges. I've sprayed numerous brands of solvent based alkyds and the chemical make up varies. On a can of Rust-Oleum Professional enamel is says to thin with mineral spirits. On the right to know for PA and NJ is says it contains xylene. Mineral spirits is a slow drying solvent and that's fine for brushing or spraying a garage door or some other large project. If I was going to use this particular product for a bike frame I would reduce it with xylene. Since the paint is a high solids, meaning it has clay, it must be reduced much more than an automotive paint. _I prefer a consistency close to chocolate milk._ If the paint is old and or it has been opened a few times the amount of reducer will vary, and from brand to brand the amount will vary. This can says 5% for brushing and I'd take a wild guess and say it will need 20% for spraying with an air sprayer. Also, there are usually two to three different tint bases, one for light color tint, medium color tinting and heavy color such as dark browns or black. The dark color tinting base usually takes more reducing to use in a spray gun. I've used at least 6 different brands of solvent based alkyds on hundreds of metal doors and all were somewhat different so experience with each one was needed. The paint definitely has to be reduced enough for a spray gun. If it's not, it may not spray, and if it does you'll end up with some nice orange peel.  Some instructions will tell you how much to reduce for spraying but what they don't tell you is if that is for an airless sprayer or not. I would look up the MSD on the paint you have and then reduce it with the type of solvent they used in the paint. Hope this helps a little.


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## sfhschwinn (Mar 1, 2015)

yes that does help some. The paint was bought in October and only opened 3 times. All I could find out for this paint was that it needs paint thinner as the reducers. Sherwin Williams does not give instructions for reducing it. The workers told me I could spray without reducing it. I read the manufacturer cannot print how to reduce enamel due to EPA bull crap.? Got hit with another 4+ inches of snow so won't be attempting painting for at least another 1-2 months until it all goes away and gets warm. So I will try reducing it another 10% when I try again and go from there. From the paint that came out and dried it hardened well and no peel so far but will have to sand it down a little and try with the new mixture.


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## GTs58 (Mar 1, 2015)

Well it looks like old Sherman Billiums is using a flash mineral spirits. No known to Cali. cancer causing good stuff?  
 PRODUCT NAME
PRO INDUSTRIAL™ Industrial Enamel 100 Alkyd Coating, Black

2 64742-88-7 Mineral Spirits 140-Flash
ACGIH TLV 100 PPM 0.5 mm
OSHA PEL 100 PPM

Did you tell the salesman you were using an air gun for spraying or did he assume you were going to be using an airless, so that's why he said thinning not required? Did you also mention that you wanted an automotive looking finish and not a splatter trunk coating finish? 
In 1988 I painted my old trailer that was made using an early 1950's International Harvester truck bed. It was shot with SW's alkyd enamel and it held up unbelievably well other than looking dull when I sold it in 2010. And no prepping on that thing other than washing it down.


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## sfhschwinn (Mar 1, 2015)

the salesman actually told me to get an hvlp gun for this and the finish on the can is glossy which when it dried after my first attempts dried shiny not dull.


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## scooter_trasher (Jan 21, 2016)

I would use a good single stage enamel for bike restorations, some thing in the lower cost range like PPG shop line or omni, sherwinn williams, and dupont both have lower cost lines for body shops,you can get your metallic or pearls added by the paint store or buy the powders off ebay way cheaper, PPG has the product data sheets online for your mix ratio and time between coats(THAT'S YOUR NEW FRIEND)  your touch up gun will be fine, the paint will lay just fine with a 1.2 to 1.5 tip, but you will need a 1.5 for thick primer, HOK is the hardest paint to use because it is mostly candy, that you mix yourself , thus the knickname HOUSE OF KRAP, so you'll need to keep accurate records of your mix and coat count, and you still will not likely match it
here's a great forum for learning http://autobodystore.com/forum/index.php
and there is a boatload of youtube videos
I like this binks airbrush-touch up gun for small stuff like stencils & scratches
more of a mini touch up gun than an airbrush
this ones a deal they sell for 3 bills new
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=201505887153




good luck


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## WetDogGraphix (Jan 22, 2016)

So I recently purchased an HVLP sprayer.  It's a Finex FX1000 mini HVLP sprayer, not the cheapest, but certainly not the most expensive, like a SATA.

I'm new to the spray gun game however, and was hoping that some of you might have some tips on things like:

• Tip Sizes - What's best for primers, bases, colors and clears
• Paint sources - House of Kolor, etc...
• Prep - surface prep, (media blast or strippers etc...)
• Painting  (techniques, #of coats, etc...)
• Finish - sanding and buffing

What I know sup far is limited to a lot of research online, and a couple of books published in 1984. Which means, not much, especially these days with paint technology changing as much as it has.

I know that after taking the frame back to raw, that a primer/sealer should be applied to prevent rust. Allowing that to dry completely, you then sand out any imperfections so your basecoat had the best chance to lay flat. I know that wet sanding orange peel in the color is important as well. But that's about where my experience stops.

I'm not saying I NEED a show quality paint job, but my perfectionism and OCD sure would like it to look better than any paint job I've managed to do with a rattle can. I'm hoping that there's some experienced painters here that can give me some help.

I know experience and technique is 75% of the job, and that practice makes perfect, but a little background knowledge and pointers probably won't hurt either.[/QUOTE]

Interesting thread... There are 2 things I know about advice, wanted or not, good or bad.................
Start backing up a long trailer when a lot of people are standing around.....or ask about painting tips! You will get advice!
I'm a siphon cup guy, but I have both. I'm surprised how people get angry about this subject and attack others. But it happens on other sites also. I really don't care if you use Enamel, Acrylic Enamel, Urethane Enamel, or Lacquer. I just love great graphics, and great paint jobs, no matter what media is used. 
It doesn't matter if the gun is siphon or HVLP. It's what you learn how to use. 
I started painting 45 years ago and I have painted Enamel, Acrylic Enamel, and in some way, Urethane's. 40 years ago I learned how to paint Lacquers and have been ever since.
Here is my siphon primer gun, and my paint & clear guns for large projects.


 


My money maker is my Binks Model 115. This gun has sprayed more stripes, flames and graphics than anyone could imagine..


 
It's also what I used on my 49 Hawthorne, start to finish. 

It's funny to me that some never answered all of Tattoodhead's questions or comments.

• Tip Sizes - What's best for primers, bases, colors and clears
*A few did answer this one.*
• Paint sources - House of Kolor, etc...
*I think some gave good advice on using good automotive paint.*
• Prep - surface prep, (media blast or strippers etc...)
*I don't think anyone commented on this, Blas**ting and stripper is OK, but not always necessary.  Good sanding and cleaning sometimes is good enough.*
• Painting  (techniques, #of coats, etc...)
*This is the question that only experience can explain.*
• Finish - sanding and buffing
*Tough question to answer. Depends.*

 I know that after taking the frame back to raw, that a primer/sealer should be applied to prevent rust. Allowing that to dry completely, you then sand out any imperfections so your basecoat had the best chance to lay flat. I know that wet *sanding orange peel* in the color is important as well. But that's about where my experience stops.

Orange peel, no one responded to this one, which surprised me .*Does anyone know what the cause of orange peel is?* I can't wait for this response....from the experts. I do have opinions on sanding Acrylic Enamels.....
*I know experience and technique is 75% of the job.*

*Actually, it's 100% of it. *
All I can tell you Tatooedhead is to just play with it, then ask questions on what went wrong. There is not one person on here who claims to be a painter who hasn't had a problem, ever. It's how you learn. This goes for anyone starting to spray.


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## scooter_trasher (Jan 22, 2016)

Orange peel is caused mainly by paint going on to thick (too wet )and not flowing out (leveling) you want a light tack coat , followed by a couple of wet coats, spray just long enough to see that it's wet looking and basically push  or move the wet paint across item being painted,you do not need a particularly wet application of base coat because it does not need to shine , not flowing out is mostly caused by the wrong reducer hardener for the Temperature , reducers come in basically four speeds, spot is fast setting for small jobs that need to be pushed out, sets in around 20 min, low med & high temp , to match your air temp  a good quality clear will take what seem forever to dry , the slower it dries the better it flows out, here's, how you wan it to turn out, the whit specs are just loose dust from outside, notice the lower right corner of the tank , you can see a tad of unlevelness where it has not been rubbed out , that's a little better than new car paint, that's what you want, if your matching panels on a car not to show smooth, as far as guns go hvlp or lvlp or lvhp(old stile), has nothing to do with whether a gun is siphon or gravity feed, they make them in both stiles, as far as paint goes find one you like and stick with it, if your painting pearls light dry looking base coat is what you want to lay to keep the pearl or metallic from moving and mlotting together in spots, the link to the auto body forum is your friend, the youtube video's are your friends, the product data sheets are your friend, have fun, if you mess up thats what sand paper is for


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## scooter_trasher (Jan 22, 2016)

Here's a link to ED Hubbs  ,youtube channel, he is the man, check him out and learn,
https://www.youtube.com/user/edhubbs/videos


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## GTs58 (Jan 22, 2016)

*Orange Peel
*​*I shoot a commercial grade acrylic enamel at least once a week ran or shine. This is a heavy bodied no primer needed type paint and it's a tad bit different every time you use it. This stuff is a little different then a thin bodied automotive acrylic enamel but orange peel from my experience is mainly do to the paint viscosity. If the paint can't be atomized then you get poor results. Having the gun adjusted with the correct paint volume helps, but if the paint needs more reducing you'll still get orange peel. GM is producing some nice orange peel in their clear coats these days, my Son's new Sierra Denali sure looks like crap when you sight down a body panel.   *


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## scooter_trasher (Jan 22, 2016)

ya to thick and not atomized for sure, but if you follow the product data sheet your mix wont be to thick, if you learn how to adjust the gun you won't get poorly atomized paint, from dumping it on ( too much paint for the air), having too fast of a reducer will cause it not to level out, THAT'S WHY NEW CAR PAINT JOBS LOOK ORANGE PEELED THEY WANT THEM TO DRY FAST SO THE PAINT DOESN'T FLOW OUT, if he reads the data sheet and uses measuring cups he'll be fine , I was just trying to point him in the right direction to a paint forum& how to you tube videos, he's going to need to get used to adjusting his gun and spray on a junk refrigerator door or car hood to get some feel, that bike tank had not been rubbed out, if you view it full size you'll see that, but it's not a unreduced  brush on enamel either, it's just 25 buck a quart ppg shopline base with 70buck for a 5 qt kit shopline clear, IE the cheap stuff, that  bike had around 50 dollars worth of material on it.


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## WetDogGraphix (Jan 23, 2016)

GTs58 said:


> Actually, you can buy it at AutoZone or OReilly's, limited colors that are pre mixed pre thinned in a quart can. A few years ago I purchased two pints of acrylic lacquer at Space Age auto paint supply so it's still out there.



I have seen that, not sure I would use it. I think it's intent is to be used as touch up paint.



redline1968 said:


> Ha .... ;0.  where can you get lacquer.. Mexico?




Well, you're kind of right, but also kind of wrong. In the early 90s, Lacquer colors disappeared. For those that remember, you could still buy thinners, primers, & clears, but they now had a sticker on them that said "For Furniture use only". It was a running joke at the paint shop. Having painted lacquer for 40 years, I have a lot of paint colors and it really didn't slow me down.



One of the problems I've had with Lacquer was when I was doing a lot of jet skis and motorcycles in the late 80's was around the gas filler necks. If gas was spilled, it had a tendency to lift the paint around the neck. I did a lot of research and found a Urethane clear that (as far as I know) is the only one that adheres to Lacquer and dries harder than my head. Problem solved. It's this one (which is now 2021).


 
So now, lets talk about buying Lacquers today. Even in Kalifornistan, you can still buy Lacquer primer, clear, & thinners (only Med. and Slow). Bought these in May last year. So no, I didn't go to Mexico to get it.




These were purchased at a place in San Diego called TCP Global, delivered right to my front door. I can post links to these if anyone is interested. So now I have the basics, but unfortunately, you cannot buy Lacquers colors at all, anywhere. There are a lot of smart people on here, so here is the $64,000 question. My 49 Hawthorne, painted last year is a Lacquer paint job, and I didn't have 49 Ford green, nor 49 Dodge Ivory in my stash of paint. So, how did I do it?


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## scooter_trasher (Jan 23, 2016)

WetDogGraphix said:


> I have seen that, not sure I would use it. I think it's intent is to be used as touch up paint.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lacquer isn't hard to find, nitro cellulose lacquer as used on Fender guitars is getting hard to find, but not acrylic lacquer, stew mac for nitro & tints is a good source, local furniture or wood working supply if your auto paint store doesn't have it, every drug store in the world has it, they call it nail polish, lacquer simply does not sell because it's a lot of work and isn't durable, I believe lacquer guy's put clear lacquer over standard base coats, here's ppg s site with all product info, if you look around you'll find lacquer under the deltron name, wtih data sheets
http://us.ppgrefinish.com/PPG-Refinish/home.aspx


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## WetDogGraphix (Jan 26, 2016)

scooter_trasher said:


> Orange peel is caused mainly by paint going on to thick (too wet )and not flowing out (leveling) you want a light tack coat , followed by a couple of wet coats, spray just long enough to see that it's wet looking and basically push  or move the wet paint across item being painted,you do not need a particularly wet application of base coat because it does not need to shine , not flowing out is mostly caused by the wrong reducer hardener for the Temperature , reducers come in basically four speeds, spot is fast setting for small jobs that need to be pushed out, sets in around 20 min, low med & high temp , to match your air temp  a good quality clear will take what seem forever to dry , the slower it dries the better it flows out, here's, how you wan it to turn out, the whit specs are just loose dust from outside, notice the lower right corner of the tank , you can see a tad of unlevelness where it has not been rubbed out , that's a little better than new car paint, that's what you want, if your matching panels on a car not to show smooth, as far as guns go hvlp or lvlp or lvhp(old stile), has nothing to do with whether a gun is siphon or gravity feed, they make them in both stiles, as far as paint goes find one you like and stick with it, if your painting pearls light dry looking base coat is what you want to lay to keep the pearl or metallic from moving and mlotting together in spots, the link to the auto body forum is your friend, the youtube video's are your friends, the product data sheets are your friend, have fun, if you mess up thats what sand paper is for



You actually have it pretty much right on. The one thing I will disagree on is that putting paint on too thick will cause orange peel, it can happen thick or thin. It's all about thinner speeds. Thin or thick coats don't matter much. If the paint flash dries to soon.....orange peel. And I do know this, there is a fine line between paint flow, and a run.


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## scooter_trasher (Jan 26, 2016)

WetDogGraphix said:


> You actually have it pretty much right on. The one thing I will disagree on is that putting paint on too thick will cause orange peel, it can happen thick or thin. It's all about thinner speeds. Thin or thick coats don't matter much. If the paint flash dries to soon.....orange peel. And I do know this, there is a fine line between paint flow, and a run.




You have to lay orange peel down in the first place IE too thick, for a catalyst too keep it from flowing out , it's not pushing it up from underneath


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## hellshotrods (Feb 12, 2016)

I like TCP Global out of San Diego, but I find if I need the good stuff, i have to order it to AZ and then have my brother drive it back over.  They sell a weak CA CARB paint.   I also like Southern Polyuerathane's  Epoxy Primer, this is the best stuff for sealing bare metal.  There is a SP dealer I have an account with in SFV.  Sometimes you can find good paint at swaps.


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## spoker (Feb 12, 2016)

redline1968 said:


> Sounds like two problems one might be the air pressure is not enough. Try turning the pressure up slowly till the paint flows out nicely the adjust the pattern. Or you have a plugged spray nozzle. Look at the nozzle see if the holes are plugged.  As for the ratio  I'm not sure with that brand but  this might work ...... 8 parts paint
> 2 parts reducer
> 1 part hardener
> Make sure the reducer is adaptable to the weather temp conditions.
> If you use too much air the paint will dull and require a sand and redo. Not enough will run.  If go light coats then let each flash dry. Light is better than heavy.



have the place u get your paint from give u the factory data sheets,they are directions on how to use all the different ingredients,when to use them tec,everything u need to know


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## redline1968 (Feb 12, 2016)

Yes you get the mixing ratios with the product. Always ask for them and get a graduated mixing stick to boot. Don't mix different brands together you won't like the end product.


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## scooter_trasher (Feb 13, 2016)

I would suggest mixing cups with lids, there about a quarter each and lids are around a dime, half pint size would be good for bicycle


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