# "Patina" vs "rust"



## gary10509

A few days ago, I posted to another section seeking identification of my grandfather's bike (which as it turns out looks to be a 1915-17 Schwinn-made private badge) and asking for advice on restoration.  A few responses urged me to repack the bearings, fix the wheels, and otherwise leave it in its found state, rather than undertaking a full restoration.  It's in solid shape.  There's no apparent "structural" rust (like bulges, swells or flakes falling off), but it's rusted with surface pitting all over.  There's no paint left.  As I consider the question of whether to restore, it occurs to me that leaving the bike in this state will allow it to continue to rust.  Although antique patina is a pretty cool thing, it seems foolish to allow it to continue to degrade.  And isn't that exactly what would happen?  I don't think it's possible to leave the patina undisturbed and at the same time prevent further rusting.  

Patina fans, what say you?


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## SirMike1983

The CABE way is relatively straightforward:

Patina is what a bike has when someone is trying to sell it to you.

Rust is what the bike has when someone is trying to buy it from you.


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## bricycle

It's real easy...
If you plan on keeping the bike the rest of your life, do what you wish with it.
If you may ever sell it... leave it alone 
(this will please most people)
It shouldn't degrade in a sheltered environment, unless you live near a coast.

Me, I usually carefully lube and clean and leave alone. You will almost never make $$ on any restoration work. Period.


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## vincev

Many times restored is a misused word. Restored means making it exactly like when new as far as color,decals,etc. Very costly.


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## bricycle

vincev said:


> Many times restored is a misused word. Restored means making it exactly like when new as far as color,decals,etc. Very costly.




yea, and if it's the wrong usage of "restored" it's basically worthless, and no one will give decent $$ for it....


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## SKIDKINGSVBC

*patina patina patina*

Patina ...Nowadays's it's all about keeping it (cars,bicycles,motorcycles etc.) as original as possible.Restored projects unless it is something really rare.The cost to restore a item can drain a bank account fast and in most cases will never get the moneys back . 20 years ago or so the trend was to restore everything ,sometimes to much ,overdone to the point of looking ridiculous,too much chrome,40 coats of gloss paint  etc... So in my opinion a bicycle should be left alone ,keep the original finish ,in the long run you or the next owner will find the return to be far greater than something that was restored either too good or a shoddy restoration ...I AM A FAN OF THE PATINA ..  LEAVE THE PATINA!


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## bikewhorder

This bike? http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?66037-What-do-I-have-Is-it-worth-it-Where-do-I-start  You don't need to worry about it continuing to deteriorate as long as its out of the elements and in a relatively climate controlled environment.  Personally I think bikes lose ALL of their appeal when they are restored unless the restoration is done to an excruciating level of detail and look as if they are NOS and I've only seen couple such restorations.  One easy and non invasive thing you can do to preserve a bike like yours is just spray the whole thing down with WD40.  It gives a glossy wet look and can brighten any remaining paint. I would also not hesitate to clean and treat that leather saddle.  I've yet to come up with a good way to do this without darkening the leather slightly but any good leather preservative is better than just letting it continue to dry out and disintegrate. If it were my bike I'd just set out on a hunt for the head badge and go though it mechanically.


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## gary10509

bikewhorder said:


> This bike? http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?66037-What-do-I-have-Is-it-worth-it-Where-do-I-start  You don't need to worry about it continuing to deteriorate as long as its out of the elements and in a relatively climate controlled environment.  Personally I think bikes lose ALL of their appeal when they are restored unless the restoration is done to an excruciating level of detail and look as if they are NOS and I've only seen couple such restorations.  One easy and non invasive thing you can do to preserve a bike like yours is just spray the whole thing down with WD40.  It gives a glossy wet look and can brighten any remaining paint. I would also not hesitate to clean and treat that leather saddle.  I've yet to come up with a good way to do this without darkening the leather slightly but any good leather preservative is better than just letting it continue to dry out and disintegrate. If it were my bike I'd just set out on a hunt for the head badge and go though it mechanically.




That's the bike.  It's a fun project.

I'm inclined to agree.  Any suggestions for the head badge hunt?


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## Dale Alan

bricycle said:


> yea, and if it's the wrong usage of "restored" it's basically worthless, and no one will give decent $$ for it....




...but it is not always about the money. I had a new GOLD Stingray when I was a kid,sadly it was stolen . Many years later I found that very same model that was rusted beyond showing any real paint. I was not about to leave it looking like crap when I wanted to bring back fond memories of my GOLD Stingray.It now makes me smile everytime I see it,rust/patina would not do that. I wash and waxed that thing everytime my Dad washed and waxed his cars...every saturday morning. All different ways to look at bikes,not just dollar signs.


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## schwinnderella

Most restorations I have seen would better be termed desecrations .


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## SJ_BIKER

*......................*

i recently purchased a crusty, crunchy, rusted to hell schwinn in a town nearby...I can hear people scoff when i will begin to part it out. Frankly the previous owners left it to rot.... but it has some good parts that i know people can use.....no ammount of polish or miracle paste will bring the paint back and only thick metal will come back with a good plate job....there is some rust which is surface that will clean up.....when the plating is too thin or peeled away....its over....patina essentially is the natural wear that comes from handling, using the item....and a rusty heap is just that....a rust heap..... there is an art though and this exists with careful planning....as one can create a patina rider such as model car/airplane model people create when they get a new kit and age the parts....it takes some practice but its well worth it if you dont want to do a full restoration on a bike.......im not particularly fond of one or the other.... but a good restoration is so nice to look at....while a patina bike gets more of wow factor that begs the question as to how that oldie has survived.....while these days a rust bucket to me is an eye sore.....to me it cries out saying.....do something before i crumble into dust and despair.....


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## bricycle

Dale Alan said:


> ...but it is not always about the money. I had a new GOLD Stingray when I was a kid,sadly it was stolen . Many years later I found that very same model that was rusted beyond showing any real paint. I was not about to leave it looking like crap when I wanted to bring back fond memories of my GOLD Stingray.It now makes me smile everytime I see it,rust/patina would not do that. I wash and waxed that thing everytime my Dad washed and waxed his cars...every saturday morning. All different ways to look at bikes,not just dollar signs.




true, but it's always nice to break even....


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## Dale Alan

bricycle said:


> true, but it's always nice to break even....




Very true,I understand what you are saying. I was mostly speaking of restoration for our own individual bikes .


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## Avvatar

It's a family heirloom.  It looks great and as long as it rides well, who cares? If you want to protect it from excessive elements you could get a coat of no/low gloss clear sprayed on her. But as Bikewhorder said,  it will be fine in a relatively stable state. Give her some good lovin' and ride for Pappy!


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## rollfaster

*Well put Gary!*



SKIDKINGSVBC said:


> Patina ...Nowadays's it's all about keeping it (cars,bicycles,motorcycles etc.) as original as possible.Restored projects unless it is something really rare.The cost to restore a item can drain a bank account fast and in most cases will never get the moneys back . 20 years ago or so the trend was to restore everything ,sometimes to much ,overdone to the point of looking ridiculous,too much chrome,40 coats of gloss paint  etc... So in my opinion a bicycle should be left alone ,keep the original finish ,in the long run you or the next owner will find the return to be far greater than something that was restored either too good or a shoddy restoration ...I AM A FAN OF THE PATINA ..  LEAVE THE PATINA!




I too am a fan of the patina. Rob.


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## Ozark Flyer

*You may be surprised...*

what you find under what appears to be just RUST.  Nothing but WD40 and a gray scrubbie pad from the H Depot.  Worth a shot.


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## bikewhorder

Wow that is almost miraculous!  Did you ever try the white scotch brite? its even finer.


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## Ozark Flyer

*Yep*

I'll start with the finer white pads and move to a more coarse pad as needed.


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## Wheeled Relics

*quotable*



schwinnderella said:


> Most restorations I have seen would better be termed desecration's .




Seeing where I can wear the patina through normal use. Best look yet.


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## Evans200

I think it's more about passion than money. After all, this is a hobby, were not "supposed" to make money. I started going to car shows 40 years ago. In those days, you either saw restored cars or exceptionally nice originals. The beaters were in the parking lot, not in the show. These days, people will walk right past a restored car to look at the one with "patina" The same thing is popular with bicycles. In the end though, you have to follow your heart, and do what you want with the bike. If it belonged to your grandfather, what do you think he would want you to do? Or better yet, what would he do? If it were me, I'd want to honor him. But that's just me. Been fun watching patina move from the parking lot and into the show!


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## pedal_junky

Evans200 said:


> I think it's more about passion than money. After all, this is a hobby, were not "supposed" to make money. I started going to car shows 40 years ago. In those days, you either saw restored cars or exceptionally nice originals. The beaters were in the parking lot, not in the show. These days, people will walk right past a restored car to look at the one with "patina" The same thing is popular with bicycles. In the end though, you have to follow your heart, and do what you want with the bike. If it belonged to your grandfather, what do you think he would want you to do? Or better yet, what would he do? If it were me, I'd want to honor him. But that's just me. Been fun watching patina move from the parking lot and into the show!





Well said, bravo.


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## bulldog1935

rust is hydrated - carrying its own water, and is in no way protective
iron patina is black oxide and is protective


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## Freqman1

Evans200 said:


> I think it's more about passion than money. After all, this is a hobby, were not "supposed" to make money. I started going to car shows 40 years ago. In those days, you either saw restored cars or exceptionally nice originals. The beaters were in the parking lot, not in the show. These days, people will walk right past a restored car to look at the one with "patina" The same thing is popular with bicycles. In the end though, you have to follow your heart, and do what you want with the bike. If it belonged to your grandfather, what do you think he would want you to do? Or better yet, what would he do? If it were me, I'd want to honor him. But that's just me. Been fun watching patina move from the parking lot and into the show!




Reminds me of a couple of years ago when I used my beater SS454 El Camino to haul a bicycle to a car show. I parked on the street and a few guys started huddling around my car. I thought something might be wrong so I went over and asked them and they said "no, were just checking out this cool car!" V/r Shawn


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## mike j

A SS 454 El Camino, that's one heck of a beater. I've been developing a taste for patina since coming onto the Cabe, it's a bit like scotch & red wine, you don't get it right away. When rust becomes crust & that antique patina gives way to crutina,I think then it's time to break out the chemicals or walk away.


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## jimmiroquai

Just my personal take with regards to my bikes and the bikes i'd like to buy:
Original paint = Patina
Rust = rust
If no original paint is left or salvageable, then i do not want a rusty bike in my stable.

That's just me of course.
Cheers!


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## gazube

just want to put a quick not on this quote   im frank from franks restorations and we restore to original beauty on every bike we sell and always make money but it is a selective group who like restored over original   the choice in this life is always yours but if you follow my work you will see what original vs restored looks like    good luck with your ride.....


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## HIGGINSFOREVER

Clean it up and ride it.Restoration is something that can be done anytime.


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## Sped Man

SirMike1983 said:


> The CABE way is relatively straightforward:
> 
> Patina is what a bike has when someone is trying to sell it to you.
> 
> Rust is what the bike has when someone is trying to buy it from you.




Well, said SirMike1983. Well said!


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## Balloonatic

*Crust-oration*

Of course the answer really depends on what you want the bike to look like when you're finished, but if an un-restored, "as found" bike look appeals to you, Bikewhorder hit it on the head. WD40 works and also stops the rust from continuing, but you'll have to spray it down every few months as it dries out and returns the finish to what it is now. I have another method that will sometimes yield very good results too and will stay looking that way.. get #0000 steel wool (the finest grade made) paint thinner, and some gloves. Gently rub the whole bike down with thinner soaked steel wool. This will remove any scaling and will often reveal some orig. paint too. Paint thinner has some oil in it and will stop the rust from continuing and also remove crud and scale. This method also works wonders on heavily rusted chrome, or to get caked grease off bearings, races, chain, etc. When you've rubbed the whole bike down, take a clean rag (a used bath towel works great) and rub the crap out of it to get all the thinner and dissolved crud off of it. 

If you're happy with that finish, you're done, but if you want a warm, moisturized/oiled finish you can give it a day to dry out, then wax the whole bike... yes I said wax (car wax), and rub the hell out of that with a clean rag/towel, then use a damp toothbrush to get wax out of any crevices, and you will have sealed-in that nice rust colored patina and it will retain that cleaned/freshened look for a very long time. 

I know it sounds sort of whacky, but I have done this (with or without the wax) many times on rusted bikes and it really comes out nicely. The paint thinner smell dissipates pretty quickly too... just let it sit for a day in a vented area. Of course we are blessed with warm, dry weather here in California almost all year which helps; I'm not sure how quickly it will dry in cold areas with rain or snow... you might have to let it dry out longer in a temp controlled garage or basement. 

I call this process a "crust-oration" or "rust-oration". It simply cleans the bike but retains what is there, and seals it in, maintaining the look of an aged bike that is still in service.

Good luck, it's a cool looking bike, and deserves to be made a rider. Back in the day (when everything seemed to get over-restored whether it needed it or not), we would have called that a "rust-peddler".


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## the tinker

*Bad Paint*

This was the FINISHED result of last months project 52 Hawthorne. Other then put the correct headlight on this bike I will ride as is.  This bike sat outside in a ladies garden for 3 years. 
She so thoughtfully painted EVERYTHING silver, and later a heavy coat  of red paint over that.
I took this bike apart hoping I could get it down to original finish, but that will not happen.    the red comes  easily but the silver is really on there. the factory paint comes off with it. I road this bike all last summer  when it was still painted all red and got a few comments of "What a cool old bike!' (go figure)
For now I will let the rust and bad paint stay and enjoy as is.  Sadly , she told the fellow that I got it from it was her dads bike and it was really nice looking. She just wanted a garden bike, so she painted it all silver.


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## thebikeman

Shoot us a picture of an example in your mind.



schwinnderella said:


> Most restorations I have seen would better be termed desecrations .


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