# do you collect original paint bikes because......



## SJ_BIKER (Dec 30, 2013)

Is the truth that you are you wanting original paint bikes because its too expensive to do a restoration? Or are you not comfortable in your restoration skills just yet? Or are you wanting more bang for your buck if you have to resell a bike if is og paint? If done right a pristine resto project can bring in more in some cases.....or you just wanting a rusty beater?  I have a friend who loves the brown hue on his metal parts and digs the rustic look overall.....whats your true reason for wanting the og character paint/metal finish??


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## Coaster Brake (Dec 30, 2013)

yes              
.


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## bricycle (Dec 30, 2013)

I have never heard of a perfect resto anything EVER worth more than a very nice original.
Anyone can restore if they got the jinga. It's only in great original condition by the grace of God once.


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## bricycle (Dec 30, 2013)

This has been rehashed at least once. If it's got at lest 50% OG finish, let it stay that way or move on to something that doesn't....
JMHO


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## Iverider (Dec 30, 2013)

I think there's a huge range that people classify as original paint. I have an Original paint 1915 Iver Johnson that has maybe 10% of the paint left. Not a desirable trait for resale if you ask me, although not having to renickel everything is a bit of a cost savings. 

I am planning to restore this bike completely in the near future, and because of the lack of actual paint, don't feel that it will devalue the bike (don't plan on selling anyway). 

If you look at original paint bikes that have most of the paint, keeping them original is probably a better idea if resale is a consideration. Restoration is costly and you're not guaranteed a return on your investment if you find interest in the restored bike lacking. Of course you might turn a profit if you picked up a crustacean for free and had the skills to do most of the work yourself. I would love to have a plating setup!

"Patina" bikes are a complete cop-out! I have one though and I LOVE IT! Just gotta keep my tetanus shots current!


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## bricycle (Dec 30, 2013)

I've restored a few bikes, and could not even come close to getting what I had in them. So, as a word to the wise... DO NOT RESTORE unless you are gonna KEEP it, or are restoring for someone else, and they have already paid you up-front! I rather like rusty stuff, truth be told...


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## dougfisk (Dec 30, 2013)

SJ_BIKER said:


> It the truth that you are you wanting original paint bikes because its too expensive to do a restoration?...




The truth is pretty much the opposite of what you have stated here. :eek: Some of us, in some instances, "settle" for a restore/repaint/project because a nice original is not available or, when available, is much more expensive.


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## catfish (Dec 30, 2013)

Because they are only original once. Plus if I scratch the paint on an original bike, it's just a scratch. If I scratch a restored bike.... It's a lot of $$$$$ ruined.


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## bricycle (Dec 30, 2013)

If I scratched a nice OG, I think I would be at least as pissed if not more than if it was restored, $ or not....


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## bricycle (Dec 30, 2013)

DANG...I'm over 9 Grand!


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 30, 2013)

bricycle said:


> If I scratched a nice OG, I think I would be at least as pissed if not more than if it was restored, $ or not....




Meeeh ... I already scratched my brown bike.. Big deal .. Didn't freak .. Cool thang is that I put the first scratch not some lousy kid from the forties . No sloppy seconds fer me haha.. I plan on riding the poop out of my restored bike.... I basically wanted a brand new Schwinn of my choosing and I got it.. Ill keep it forever dents rust and all cause I put that patina on it and its now got a new lease on life and with every scratch more soul then it had before sooooo blah


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## Iverider (Dec 30, 2013)

I figure you'll be at 10K before groundhog day Bri!

I figure in 20 years my restored bike will look like a tatty original. I was thinking of reversing the color scheme just so it's not mistaken as original, but after I'm gone, what do I care?


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## rollfaster (Dec 30, 2013)

*Very we'll put bri*



bricycle said:


> I've restored a few bikes, and could not even come close to getting what I had in them. So, as a word to the wise... DO NOT RESTORE unless you are gonna KEEP it, or are restoring for someone else, and they have already paid you up-front! I rather like rusty stuff, truth be told...




Most restored bikes are still with the person either because want to keep it or it wouldn't sell.


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## OldRider (Dec 30, 2013)

Rust rocks! I truly love the way my little collection looks, a few dings and dents in the fenders, most of the paint gone.........I call it character


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## Handyman (Dec 30, 2013)

*Original vs Restored*

I think it’s all personal preference.  I can absolutely appreciate the original patina of an unrestored bike but I also love the looks of a fully restored one.  I’m really not interested in what the resale might be down the road or “recouping” the money I’ve spent restoring a bike, that’s not my main concern.  I collect these bikes, and put money into them because I enjoy them……………………..both ways, I enjoy the process of bringing a sad case back to life.  One additional thought, I’m a fairly new comer to the bicycle world, having spent most of my life since high school involved with classic cars and still own one.  I’ve owned original cars and restored cars and I’ve enjoyed them both equally as well.


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## 2jakes (Dec 30, 2013)

SJ_BIKER said:


> Is the truth that you are you wanting original paint bikes because its too expensive to do a restoration? Or are you not comfortable in your restoration skills just yet? Or are you wanting more bang for your buck if you have to resell a bike if is og paint? If done right a pristine resto project can bring in more in some cases.....or you just wanting a rusty beater?  I have a friend who loves the brown hue on his metal parts and digs the rustic look overall.....whats your true reason for wanting the og character paint/metal finish??







Expense is not a problem for me...but finding an original is.
I'm very comfortable with my skills in restoration of bicycles.
I enjoy collecting original bicycles for myself as a hobby not to resell.
And basically...I just love "original paint bikes" more then restored ones.
if this doesn't make sense, please read Bricycle's  replies because...

* Bricycle said it best.... *


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## kngtmat (Dec 30, 2013)

Yes for me. I can't paint & I don't know someone close by to do it for me which is why I still haven't finished my Christine bike so I look as original as possible and it's not just because of the paint either. Hard to find original decals for bikes and not much reproductions so looking for bikes with those still there is a reason too.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 30, 2013)

kngtmat said:


> Yes for me. I can't paint & I don't know someone close by to do it for me which is why I still haven't finished my Christine bike so I look as original as possible and it's not just because of the paint either. Hard to find original decals for bikes and not much reproductions so looking for bikes with those still there is a reason too.




Well put it this way, when alllllll those "non restored I heart rust love patina" have decomposed back into their natural state the restored ones will be the new rusty ones! Vicious cycle... So if you think about it, all the people restoring bikes,are actually helping prolong the hobby after we are all dead!


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## 2jakes (Dec 30, 2013)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Well put it this way, when alllllll those "non restored I heart rust love patina" have decomposed back into their natural state the restored ones will be the new rusty ones! Vicious cycle... So if you think about it, all the people restoring bikes,are actually helping prolong the hobby after we are all dead!




Here's my " non restored I heart rust love patina " from the 30s.





I do believe the worms will feast on us first...while this beauty will be around
for a very very long time....all it takes is a little  " TLC " ...:roll eyes:


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## rockabillyjay (Dec 30, 2013)

Originial bikes just have the soul that no restored bike can...I don't even look at restorations as something I would want to own


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 30, 2013)

it's a bit of almost all of the stuff in the original question. but it's also more.
I really love the soul, and sense of history in an original bike. it has the scratches it has earned over the past 75 years, the dents installed by it's original 12 year old owner, sometimes their initials carved into it marking it as their proud possession.
I was discussing with another member what I thought was going to be the next trend in old bike collecting. I think it's going to be the "as found" bike. a bike with all of the ornaments, dents, decals, stickers and house paint it has picked up along the way still in tact. the more I think of it I really like the idea.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 30, 2013)

2jakes said:


> Here's my " non restored I heart rust love patina " from the 30s.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's really cool!


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## DJ Bill (Dec 30, 2013)

SJ_BIKER said:


> Is the truth that you are you wanting original paint bikes because its too expensive to do a restoration? Or are you not comfortable in your restoration skills just yet? Or are you wanting more bang for your buck if you have to resell a bike if is og paint? If done right a pristine resto project can bring in more in some cases.....or you just wanting a rusty beater?  I have a friend who loves the brown hue on his metal parts and digs the rustic look overall.....whats your true reason for wanting the og character paint/metal finish??




I collect newer bikes than most on here...the 60's and 70's Schwinn line especially Suburbans and Stingrays....because those were the bikes of my youth.  The Suburbans are not going to be particularly valuable so a repaint would not be practical.  The Rays would need a complete rechrome and repaint to look new, so I prefer to keep them looking just as our bikes looked in the 70's. So, I guess the answer is that I am cheap. I do clean as much rust off as I can using the techniques most of us use. If the rust can be removed, I remove it. I don't like seeing rust. A proper metallic paint job to match the original Schwinn metallic colors is not a cheap or easy thing, so I save the paint if I can. There is something about having original paint if it looks good that is unmatched by a repaint. (In the old flatfender Jeep world lately there have been  a couple sales of unrestored survivors that went for huge money, more than most restorations go for, so this might be a trend to watch and pay attention to.)Here is a Stingray I cleaned up...definitely not a spendy bike and not worth rechrome, new seat or paint.. 



I do have a 40's Roadmaster that just got sandblasted and epoxy primed by a local body shop. ($55!)It will get a single stage enamel color and hopefully the frame, fork, and wheels will all look new. It will have new tires.  I have some new Wald headset and BB chrome parts that will help out in the bling department, and the rest of the chrome will have to be as polished for now. Bars are a little rough and the sprocket too.  This bike was built from a frame that had about 5 paint jobs and was stripped of all of the easy bolt ons, so I don't feel bad about ruining an original bike. Again, it won't be particularly valuable when I am done but it will look nice enough to most folks. Maybe the less than perfect chrome will make them think it is something other than the latest Wally World cruiser.  here it is before the paint...



It is really neat to know the paint on a bike is the same paint that was on it the day it was first ridden. If it can still be made to look acceptable why not keep it? Patina for the sake of having patina is a different thing I don't get, especially when it is faked on a newer bike. I don't get Steampunk either so maybe I am not hip enough. I can't afford to be hip in today's economy either...


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## 2jakes (Dec 30, 2013)

37fleetwood said:


> it's a bit of almost all of the stuff in the original question. but it's also more.
> I really love the soul, and sense of history in an original bike. it has the scratches it has earned over the past 75 years, the dents installed by it's original 12 year old owner, sometimes their initials carved into it marking it as their proud possession.
> I was discussing with another member what I thought was going to be the next trend in old bike collecting. I think it's going to be the "as found" bike. a bike with all of the ornaments, dents, decals, stickers and house paint it has picked up along the way still in tact. the more I think of it I really like the idea.




Scott,

 You have a great  way of expressing things !

You just "jump-started" my memory mode to when I was kid.
I had just received for Christmas a new Western Flyer X-53.
I  was 10 yrs. old. The bike came unassembled. My dad put
it together for me.
There's a photo of me sitting on the bike. Not sure where it is now.

 Many years later , I noticed in the photo that the handlebar stem was 
attached  wrong. I  kidded my dad about it. He just smiled &  replied,
Well I had to son...otherwise You couldn't have reached the handlebars.

I lost my dad last Feb. Thanks for reminding me about all the
things that occur with the history of the bike through the ages.


Sincerely,

jake


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## Madness7 (Dec 30, 2013)

When a bike is found, original or not, it should stay the way it is. Obviously you should make it rideable, but all the rust and dings and everything else should stay the same. It's part of the bike's story. And you shouldn't re-write that story of what that bike was. Just ride it and let its story continue. It doesn't need refreshing. It doesn't need plastic surgery. It wasn't meant to last forever. Just like us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sped Man (Dec 30, 2013)

To me it doesn't matter as long as it looks good and doesn't cost a fortune I am sold.


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## OldRider (Dec 30, 2013)

Madness7 said:


> When a bike is found, original or not, it should stay the way it is. Obviously you should make it rideable, but all the rust and dings and everything else should stay the same. It's part of the bike's story. And you shouldn't re-write that story of what that bike was. Just ride it and let its story continue. It doesn't need refreshing. It doesn't need plastic surgery. It wasn't meant to last forever. Just like us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Excellent thoughts! Welcome to the CABE


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## bike (Dec 30, 2013)

*A few ounces of original surface are very very delicate and rare*

rusted metal hulks abound


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 30, 2013)

Madness7 said:


> When a bike is found, original or not, it should stay the way it is. Obviously you should make it rideable, but all the rust and dings and everything else should stay the same. It's part of the bike's story. And you shouldn't re-write that story of what that bike was. Just ride it and let its story continue. It doesn't need refreshing. It doesn't need plastic surgery. It wasn't meant to last forever. Just like us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Cool.. Well let me know when a weld breaks on your og rusty heap while riding.. Or the cracked frame thats been house painted over a billion times and you don't care because its has soul until you eat it when it gives way..lol


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## cyclingday (Dec 30, 2013)

The title of this website says it best. The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange.
These things are CLASSIC and ANTIQUE! At least they're supposed to be.
The New and Improved Bicycle Exchange, is for when all the classics have gone the way of the Dodo bird.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 30, 2013)

Sped Man said:


> To me it doesn't matter as long as it looks good and doesn't cost a fortune I am sold.




Exactly.... Its yours to add more SOUL or crap to just as the kid before you did... . You restore it with quality paint just as some kid house painted it.  He changrd it so why not us? Yer adding to its history.. Just cause you have it now doesn't end its soul gathering.. Make sense?..


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## GenuineRides (Dec 30, 2013)

*Maintain Integrity with only Genuine Parts*

Opinions, everyone has them just like...I feel I was meant to preserve and/or resurrect history while maintaining it's integrity, history, life story, bumps and bruises and therefore it's patina, without altering it (if at all possible, original paint and chrome), maybe a sympathetic mechanical re-cycle to keep it running safe, sound, and smooth...as much original as possible is the only way.  

My signature says it all.

GenuineRides


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 30, 2013)

cyclingday said:


> The title of this website says it best. The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange.
> These things are CLASSIC and ANTIQUE! At least they're supposed to be.
> The New and Improved Bicycle Exchange, is for when all the classics have gone the way of the Dodo bird.




so are you saying it correctly restored bike is new and improved?


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## scrubbinrims (Dec 30, 2013)

I think many of folks who appreciate restored bicycles are also into the car collecting hobby where it is a more acceptable part of that culture.
Just an observation.

There are a number of great professional bicycle restorers that are an asset to our hobby having a special attention to detail and the knowledge from having to get it right/correct.

Personally, original bicycles just do it for me and the satisfaction I get from working on them, is why I'm here.
If the work is done for me, I'm not interested, if to buy and keep as found, I'm not interested...there is more to it than just having.

Chris


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 30, 2013)

scrubbinrims said:


> I think many of folks who appreciate restored bicycles are also into the car collecting hobby where it is a more acceptable part of that culture.
> Just an observation.
> 
> There are a number of great professional bicycle restorers that are an asset to our hobby having a special attention to detail and the knowledge from having to get it right/correct.
> ...




I agree... With brown bike all I had done was paint. I had to find and still am finding parts!  I like finding the right period correct stuff for it. Maybe my restored bike doesn't count since it wasn't completely assembled and cherry done waiting for me. I had to do that!


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## SJ_BIKER (Dec 30, 2013)

*location location=condition condition*

In all my years of working on schwinn bikes.....ive never had one 100% complete....bikes have always had something missing....a tank, a rack, a mix matched wheel set, mixed matched painted parts....or paint that had baddd touch ups....when finding replacement parts it was a daunting task as my current endevour is proving(dang marroon tank).....patience is a virtue....inthe past i pieced together bikes and settled for mixed matched projects and took on a few partial restos or near complete restos which didnt compare to the pros but it was good enough for me....its really a matter of what condition suites your fancy.....i brought back a phantom from the dead a few years ago not for making money initially.....i simply wanted to save it....having only the frame( i saved parts over the years and when i had what i needed...the resto began)....and i look back and think what wouldve happend if had not spruced it up and left that 51 for dead.....some bikes have to be redone....while others need to be preserved so we can study them or the future owner can study them.....if i had to pick.....id rather buy a condition 7-8 bicycle completely stock....however im a realist and have to accept that few exist to purchase at this time....any other day a pristine correct restoration is just as good as any original i think....when originals seem nowhere to be found....someone will enjoy it....


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## old hotrod (Dec 30, 2013)

SJ_BIKER said:


> Is the truth that you are you wanting original paint bikes because its too expensive to do a restoration? Or are you not comfortable in your restoration skills just yet? Or are you wanting more bang for your buck if you have to resell a bike if is og paint? If done right a pristine resto project can bring in more in some cases.....or you just wanting a rusty beater?  I have a friend who loves the brown hue on his metal parts and digs the rustic look overall.....whats your true reason for wanting the og character paint/metal finish??




I have 1 restored bike (my only post war bike) and the rest are original paint pre war bikes and all are ready to ride...not necessarily the rarest or the top of the line, just complete original paint because that is what I like...if I had big money and collected cars instead of bikes, my cars would be the same, original paint. It has nothing to do with ability or "skills" or economic level, I could afford to do what I like and I just like the patina and textures on the originals. I ride my bikes and don't sell them off very often so I am only going to buy what I like since it is probably going to be around a while...


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## mike j (Dec 31, 2013)

A lot of very good & valid points have been brought up. There is theory and reality to deal with. I personally would love to find an original classic that I could just re-grease the bearings, spray some WD-40, maybe a little compound , wax & call it a day. But that's not what I'm usually dealing with, I am having fun with it though.


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## bike (Dec 31, 2013)

*Tides in this*

hobby rise and fall as in autos- I was in the 80s auto restoration rape - RESTORED FROM GOOD ORIGINAL- why mess with junk?

Many of todays new collectors have not see true #8-9.9 bikes and few 5-7 bikes they are (imho) calling them 8-9s because people in the past used to find complete originals to restore cause you did not have to look for paint pattern or parts and a number 7 going to an 11 bling shinly  plated oohhhh!! mama


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## DJ Bill (Dec 31, 2013)

You guys keep calling condition numbers.. where is this chart of conditions for us newbies? 


Lot of good points from both sides....I  don't think this argument is ever going to be settled.


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## bike (Dec 31, 2013)

*Totally*



DJ Bill said:


> You guys keep calling condition numbers.. where is this chart of conditions for us newbies?
> 
> 
> Lot of good points from both sides....I  don't think this argument is ever going to be settled.




subjectve,... meant to be 0%(ok math people) rotted rust through -100% brand new perfect


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 31, 2013)

bike said:


> subjectve,... meant to be 0%(ok math people) rotted rust through -100% brand new perfect




I hear stories about these very complete bikes with awesome paint being restored/destroyed..wonder how many rare colored bikes were painted black and cream during this dark dumbass period of the hobby. I think a public stoning is in order for crimes against bikes in the 80s... !!!...


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## mike j (Dec 31, 2013)

Obi Wan, There you go, getting all biblical. In China, they just shoot you in the head & send the bill for the bullet to the family.


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## catfish (Dec 31, 2013)

rockabillyjay said:


> Originial bikes just have the soul that no restored bike can...I don't even look at restorations as something I would want to own




Well said. Nothing beats original.


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## 2jakes (Dec 31, 2013)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> I hear stories about these very complete bikes with awesome paint being restored/destroyed..wonder how many rare colored bikes were painted black and cream during this dark dumbass period of the hobby. I think a public stoning is in order for crimes against bikes in the 80s... !!!...











*Let the stoning commence !*


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## bricycle (Dec 31, 2013)

2jakes said:


> *Let the stoning commence !*




...darn! and all I have are rocks!!!......crap!


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## Talewinds (Dec 31, 2013)

You guys should really buy more restored bikes.


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## bricycle (Dec 31, 2013)

yea, save the good OG ones for all the Brians on here....


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## Talewinds (Dec 31, 2013)

bricycle said:


> yea, save the good OG ones for all the Brians on here....




Precisely my point! Great Brians think alike.


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## 2jakes (Dec 31, 2013)

:







bricycle said:


> ...darn! and all I have are rocks!!!......crap!




Not to worry...I checked & found this ...the last amendment....




_" Rocks will henceforth be allowed by Bricycle "..._.


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## Dan the bike man (Dec 31, 2013)

Moral of the story, it depends on the bike!


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 31, 2013)

2jakes said:


> *Let the stoning commence !*




Are you saying stone me?...


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## bricycle (Dec 31, 2013)

looks like someone already hit your bow tie with one or two....


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 31, 2013)

bricycle said:


> looks like someone already hit your bow tie with one or two....




That's just the fashion nowadays


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## 2jakes (Dec 31, 2013)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Are you saying stone me?...




*Never ....just paying homage to the mighty Twain !*





you makin fun of my bow tie ????


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## 2jakes (Dec 31, 2013)

*Paying homage to the mighty Twain...*




_A monkey in golf wear is still a ....oh never mind !!!_


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## bricycle (Dec 31, 2013)

it's not a monkey suit... it's modern Golfwear!!!!!


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## filmonger (Dec 31, 2013)

I would call the suit and tie patina...... Just something you cannot replicate - no matter how you try.


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## 2jakes (Dec 31, 2013)

filmonger said:


> I would call the suit and tie patina...... Just something you cannot replicate - no matter how you try.




Are you referring to the monkey suit.....sorry..... I meant ....modern Golfwear ????:o


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## bike (Dec 31, 2013)

*everybody must get*

stoned...........


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 31, 2013)

I've already responded to this thread, but the tone has changed a bit so I thought I'd add to my response.
without going into the 1-10 scale which has to do with condition, here is a little bit on how I look at value and collectability:

top value and rarity, complete, un-restored
next, very near complete, un-restored with correct parts replaced
next either, complete restored, or built from matching color/condition original parts
next, complete as found
next, complete un-restored, or partly restored with all correct parts (certain bikes with outrageously rare parts may move up a notch or two in this condition)
next, projects and customs
bottom value, any bike no matter how rare or valuable to anyone else that is owned or has been owned by someone on my list of total douche bags (no, Obi-Wan, you are not on this list...yet) 

here's a perfect example of my second tier bike,


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## mruiz (Dec 31, 2013)

*1961 traveler*

I got a frame from JD a couple of months ago. Found out it is a 1961 traveler, it needed a paint job bad. I got it painted new decals breaks, seat, handle bars ... except the 3 speed wheels, I Need a set. But when I am done I want to feel that I brought it back to life. And it's history will keep rolling. 


But I do prefer original. Happy new Year!
 Mitch


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 31, 2013)

37fleetwood said:


> I've already responded to this thread, but the tone has changed a bit so I thought I'd add to my response.
> without going into the 1-10 scale which has to do with condition, here is a little bit on how I look at value and collectability:
> 
> top value and rarity, complete, un-restored
> ...



Ouch sir! Eeesh that close to being listed?!


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## militarymonark (Dec 31, 2013)

i like original paint bikes so I can ride them without fear of ruining fresh paint or shiny chrome. And its less work to get them going.


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## vincev (Dec 31, 2013)

I'll stick with original paint bikes.If they have character scratches thats ok. A restored bike looks great but loses something in the restoration sometimes.


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## Handyman (Jan 1, 2014)

*Condition Rating Scale for Classic and Collectable Bicycles*

This is a discussion that has no answer as it is all personal preference.  Although the following link is focused on classic cars, I think the rating system fits perfectly with classic bicycles.

http://www.classicladymotors.net/t-conditionratingscale.aspx

This scale is the common guide used in the classic car industry to rate the standard of quality in classic vehicles.  This scale goes from a #1 (top condition), to a #6 (parts car).  Most guides within the industry use this standard.

*1) * *EXCELLENT*:  Restored to current maximum professional standards of quality in every area, or perfect original with components operating and appearing as new. A 95-plus point show car that is not driven. In a sense it has become an object of art. It is transported to shows in an enclosed trailer, and when not being shown, it is stored in a climate-controlled facility. There are very FEW # 1 cars.

*2)* *FINE*:  Well-restored, or a combination of superior restoration and excellent original.  Also, an extremely well-maintained original showing very minimal wear.  Except for the closest inspection, a #2 vehicle will take the top award in many judged shows.

*3) * *VERY GOOD*:  Completely operable original or older restoration showing wear.  Also, a good amateur restoration that is all presentable and serviceable, inside and out. Plus, combinations of well-done restoration and good operable components; or a partially restored car with all parts necessary to complete it and/or valuable NOS parts. This is a “20 footer”, meaning that from 20 feet away, it may look perfect. In general, most of the vehicles seen at shows are #3’s.

*4)* *GOOD*:  A driveable vehicle needing no or only minor work to be functional.  Also, a deteriorated restoration, or a very poor amateur restoration.  All components may need restoration to be “excellent” but the car is mostly usable “as is.”  This is a driver. It may be in the process of restoration or its owner may have big plans for the car, but even from 20 feet away, there is no doubt it is in need of a lot of help.

*5)* *RESTORABLE*:  Needs complete restoration of body, chassis, and interior. May or may not be running, but isn’t weathered, wrecked and/or stripped to the point of being useful for only parts.  This car needs everything. It may be operable, but it is essentially all there and has only minor surface rust, if any rust at all.  Although a challenge for the restorer, it won’t have him doing a lot of chasing for missing parts.

*6) * *PARTS CAR*:  May or may not be running, but is weathered, wrecked, and/or stripped to the point of being useful primarily for parts.  This is an incomplete or greatly deteriorated, perhaps rusty, vehicle that has value only to sell the parts or for other restoration projects.


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## partsguy (Jan 1, 2014)

I have done full restorations before and you are always scared of nicking that pristine paint. Once restored, I can only look at them and trailer queen them around. Hell, I have an almost mint (on that car scale a #1 or #2 original) Silver Jet and soon I'll have another. I barely ride it out of the fear of damaging some of the very rare parts on it. Like the tank light (Huffman Co. was foolish to put the battery tray in the headlight bezel but I digress), fender ornament, etc. My '66 is pretty rough but is presentable, on the car scale a number 3 (maybe 3.5) and I'll be much more comfortable riding that.

In general I do prefer original paint bikes because I do ride them. The same thing goes for my LP collection (why buy a sealed original when I'm buying it to play?). But there is a catch; if ANY of the painted parts are missing, I'm very unlikely to buy it. I can spend valuable time nitpicking swap meets, flea markets, junkyards, and eBay to find a painted part that just so happens to match the patina. There are a few exceptions to this but not many.

If I was going to give the bike a full restoration missing parts would matter less since they would be stripped anyway. But I rarely have time for that now hence why I've started to sell some of the bikes.


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## 2jakes (Jan 1, 2014)

Handyman said:


> This is a discussion that has no answer as it is all personal preference.  Although the following link is focused on classic cars, I think the rating system fits perfectly with classic bicycles.
> 
> http://www.classicladymotors.net/t-conditionratingscale.aspx
> 
> ...




*This has got to be the most useful information I have ever read with regards to this topic....
  plus, the opening statement  says it all for me..*

*" This is a discussion that has no answer as it is all personal preference  ".... 

Thanks Handyman !*


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## Larmo63 (Jan 1, 2014)

I prefer original paint bikes, period. We can't always afford, or luck into finding them,

so we have to take frames, fenders, and parts to restore and build a workable facsimile.

If a vintage bicycle is properly restored by one of the well known restorers in our hobby,

I can accept that as a close second. The clock starts over again and in 50 years, it's going

to be hard to tell if it was original or not. (See Marty's green Schwinn that Bob U. painted)


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## Hubs-n-Spokes (Jan 1, 2014)

I like them original for the most part and that means AS YOU FOUND IT. I don't mind restored if you have minimal paint or the if the bicycle has been pieced together. For me rust is NOT patina, it is just rust and not desirable at all. I don't mind scratches, dents or dings but dust or dirt need to be cleaned off the bike.
My pet peeve is "upgrading" or swapping out parts for parts in better condition from a nice original bicycle.


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## rockabillyjay (Jan 1, 2014)

1) EXCELLENT: *Restored to current maximum professional standards of quality* in every area, or perfect original with components operating and appearing as new. A 95-plus point show car that is not driven. In a sense it has become an object of art. It is transported to shows in an enclosed trailer, and when not being shown, it is stored in a climate-controlled facility. There are very FEW # 1 cars.


...this is my main issue with restored bikes. Current show chrome and powder coat look nothing like original finishes. Most restored bikes I see are OVER restored.


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## dougfisk (Jan 1, 2014)

Hubs-n-Spokes said:


> ...For me rust is NOT patina, it is just rust and not desirable at all. I don't mind scratches, dents or dings but dust or dirt need to be cleaned off the bike...




I'll go along with this...


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## 2jakes (Jan 1, 2014)

rockabillyjay said:


> 1) EXCELLENT: *Restored to current maximum professional standards of quality* in every area, or perfect original with components operating and appearing as new. A 95-plus point show car that is not driven. In a sense it has become an object of art. It is transported to shows in an enclosed trailer, and when not being shown, it is stored in a climate-controlled facility. There are very FEW # 1 cars.
> 
> 
> ...this is my main issue with restored bikes. Current show chrome and powder coat look nothing like original finishes. Most restored bikes I see are OVER restored.




  That's interesting what you say. And I gotta ask this.  

If the current show chrome & powder coat  applied looks nothing like the original finishes...is it possible for
someone with skill to be able to apply just the right amount to original standards instead of over restoring ?

I have no knowledge of what is involved in the procedure regarding re-chrome...just curious... Thanks !


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## bike (Jan 1, 2014)

*yes*



2jakes said:


> That's interesting what you say. And I gotta ask this.
> 
> If the current show chrome & powder coat  applied looks nothing like the original finishes...is it possible for
> someone with skill to be able to apply just the right amount to original standards instead of over restoring ?
> ...




true art....lots of time talent and skill


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## 2jakes (Jan 1, 2014)

bike said:


> true art....lots of time talent and skill




And probably mucho $$$$$.

The reason I was asking also is that I bought a replacement chrome bumper
& it's rusting a year later.

Wondering if it could be rechrome  to last like the original which I
no longer have.

Sorry about straying from the topic...

_( I'm part mongrel & don't know better... )_


Please continue...


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## Handyman (Jan 2, 2014)

*Rating Scale for Classic and Collectable Bicycles*

The beauty of this rating scale is that it takes all factors into consideration, both original and restored.  A #1 EXCELLENT condition bike *could *be a bike that is “restored to current maximum professional standards of quality in every area”, or it *could *be a “perfect original with components operating and appearing as new”.  Both examples would have the same value according to the scale.  That said, the buyer has the final say as to what he/she thinks is worth more to them, again, personal preference.    

Remember, this scale meant only to give some sort of order or ranking to a collectable so that an owner or buyer can more accurately evaluate its value.


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## mike j (Jan 2, 2014)

Back in the 80's, when I was in the auto body business, there was a real problem with the re-chromed bumpers rusting up pretty quickly. We were told that the junkies were stealing all the nickel at the re-chrome plants. Just a quick aside since we've strayed.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 2, 2014)

2jakes said:


> That's interesting what you say. And I gotta ask this.
> 
> If the current show chrome & powder coat  applied looks nothing like the original finishes...is it possible for
> someone with skill to be able to apply just the right amount to original standards instead of over restoring ?
> ...




This has been covered before but is worth repeating. True, every bike I've seen 'restored' is better than it ever left the factory including the ones I've done. The reason--all factory bikes have flaws/finishes that 99% of you would say look like crap for a restored bike. BTW Proctors Metal Refinishing who does a lot of chrome for restorers will do it to three levels--ranging from show chrome, to better than factory, to approximately what factory would look like including blems. Simplified--chrome plating involves prepping the part to remove rust and correct  impefections/copper plating to fill imperfections and buffed, nickel plated, and finally chromed. Just like a paint job the quality will be determined largely by the prep. 

The bike I used as the pattern for my Dayton Super Streamline is an original '37 Dayton Motorbike with pinstriping so bad it looks like the person was drunk. I've seen plenty of Phantoms with stripes that were a little crazy and secondary colors sprayed so thin that a little polish would start to wear through the paint. Also no bikes I know of were ever color sanded and buffed! Car restorers got hip to this a long time ago and now if you want a show quality Corvette it better have overspray in the right places. A correctly restored Thunderbird _must_ exhibit orange peel in the paint or points are deducted. Of course each of these marques have manuals that go into excrutiating detail as how the car should be restored properly to include use of the correct fasteners and clips. 

There are no agreed upon standards for bicycle restorations or judging so they are brought back to better than new/improved/upgraded. The main reason for this? Well cars have VINs/build sheets/fender tags that tell you how the car left the factory. No bike serial numbers tell you anything about how it was originally equipped and in the case of some bikes none or very few originals exist from which to determine what was correct. Even factory literature is not accurate in many cases exacerbating the problem. 

So what's the point of a grading scale? Well it's simply a guide that is subjective. To me these scales really serve little purpose. My guide for buying is: does it look correct, do I like it, and can I afford it. In order to answer that first question you normally must perform many hours of research. Take a shortcut here and you may learn some costly lessons. Of course all of this is jus my 2c. V/r Shawn


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## cyclonecoaster.com (Jan 2, 2014)

*The reason is to preserve history ...*



SJ_BIKER said:


> Is the truth that you are you wanting original paint bikes because its too expensive to do a restoration? Or are you not comfortable in your restoration skills just yet? Or are you wanting more bang for your buck if you have to resell a bike if is og paint? If done right a pristine resto project can bring in more in some cases.....or you just wanting a rusty beater?  I have a friend who loves the brown hue on his metal parts and digs the rustic look overall.....whats your true reason for wanting the og character paint/metal finish??




I collect original paint bikes to preserve history & pass it down when the time comes .. If you're worried about making more or less money off it & that's your mind set .. well then you're in the hobby for the wrong reason ... I have NEVER been a fan of blowing off the original character off anything & making it shiny to display or even use ... Most the time people restore things beyond what they were originally anyways ... embrace what you find & keep it around for future generations to admire the soul of history ... Ride Vintage ... Frank


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## bike (Jan 2, 2014)

*Seems ther eis not RIGHT answer, but there is a WRONG one..*

it is only original once- so take your time on deciding to mess with anything that cant be undone easily..............

I just bought a FUNKY barn find- a Honda 1971 cb750 period mod road racer - (..took me a long time to be able to bring something home and let it sit for a while while I think about cleaning or leaving etc.)

The seller is a friend. He said" I did not have time to clean it up!"
THANK GOD! rat poop is barnfind pedegree- if it is cleanded it will just be another old honda needing work... now it is art.





---
I 'found' an old motorcycle in a barn. Sat in one place since 1947(yes)

Old man owner I NEVER GOT TO RESTORE IT!

THANK GOD!

(I am not a god freak, I am a exclamation freak!)




(2 points to whoever can name the thing BEHIND the orange bike)


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## 2jakes (Jan 2, 2014)

Freqman1 said:


> " The bike I used as the pattern for my Dayton Super Streamline is an original '37 Dayton Motorbike with pinstriping so bad it looks like the person was drunk. I've seen plenty of Phantoms with stripes that were a little crazy and secondary colors sprayed so thin that a little polish would start to wear through the paints "...
> V/r Shawn




+ 1

My '52 , '53 , '54 Phantom's pin striping  is "worlds apart" in consistency....





( 2 points to whoever can name the thing BEHIND  the orange bike )





I see what looks like a can of paint on the floor, lube bottle,wrapping paper
& a  vintage Briggs & Stratton  lawn mower or weed eater...


Sorry...not too good on guessing !


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## cyclonecoaster.com (Jan 2, 2014)

*..........................*



bike said:


> (2 points to whoever can name the thing BEHIND the orange bike)




A Dream ........


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## bike (Jan 2, 2014)

*when it is your life's defining moment..*



cyclonecoaster.com said:


> A Dream ........




it loses some gloss...
Yes I have been out finding some cool junk while a lot of you are at your job wishing you were out finding junk- I did it at a cost... stayed single,broke and childess (NO way I was passing on this dna) --now that is my decision but some of you happen to pull it ALL off and I never could...others work AND have nothing to show for it and I have tried to avoid that at least.


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## bricycle (Jan 2, 2014)

bike said:


> it is only original once- so take your time on deciding to mess with anything that cant be undone easily..............
> 
> I just bought a FUNKY barn find- a Honda 1971 cb750 period mod road racer - (..took me a long time to be able to bring something home and let it sit for a while while I think about cleaning or leaving etc.)
> 
> ...




The engine appears to be an industrial air cooled engine manufactured by an old Outboard manufacturer.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 2, 2014)

Snow blower? That was a SWAG! V/r Shawn


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jan 2, 2014)

Here is an original Allen wrench. Non restored condition. Has some original black paint with lots of soul and patina. I will take 50 dollars for it. Its original and has not been messed with.. Lots of soul and "patina"!!


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## 2jakes (Jan 2, 2014)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Here is an original Allen wrench. Non restored condition. Has some original black paint with lots of soul and patina. I will take 50 dollars for it. Its original and has not been messed with.. Lots of soul and "patina"!!
> View attachment 130294






Do you do trades ?????




_Original Non restored condition original paint. 
With lots of soul & patina & then some...._


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jan 2, 2014)

2jakes said:


> Do you do trades ?????
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Haha... ..


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## greenephantom (Jan 3, 2014)

I collect original paint bikes because I find more satisfaction in it. I do have one repaint in my "permanent" collection (5 speed Corvette re-done in black), but at this point in my collecting, I've decided that original paint is the way to go. Given, I collect Schwinns from the 1950s through the late 1960s, so excellent original paint examples of desirable models are still available from time to time. If I was into rare pre-war stuff where excellent original paint examples just don't exist, then I would undoubtedly feel different about it. But since I'm staying post-war, I find limiting my collection to excellent condition original paint bikes helps keep the collection size in check. Plus, to be fairly honest about these things, most restored bikes have a fairly weak resale. Lots of people want to restore a bike, not many folks want to purchase a bike that has already been restored. Original paint bikes in excellent condition are hard to find and represent a nice little piece of history. I find satisfaction in the hunt, not in having perfectly restored bikes. But that's just me.
Cheers, Geoff


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## charnleybob (Jan 4, 2014)

Original paint bikes will always be worth more.
Restoring bikes is a labor of love.


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## John (Jan 4, 2014)

*I like both original and restored*

So I have both


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## MR D (Jan 6, 2014)

Madness7 said:


> When a bike is found, original or not, it should stay the way it is. Obviously you should make it rideable, but all the rust and dings and everything else should stay the same. It's part of the bike's story. And you shouldn't re-write that story of what that bike was. Just ride it and let its story continue. It doesn't need refreshing. It doesn't need plastic surgery. It wasn't meant to last forever. Just like us.




This is what gets me about anyone elses opinions on things in general. Using words like "should" as if there is NO other way...no other opinion. We all take turns owning things, we do what we like with them. This does not create a new story for the item, it IS a continuation of the story of an inanimate object. The next person that owns the item will either "get it" or they wont. It "should" be up to each person to decide the next chapter in it's story.

Mr D.


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## Spence36 (Jan 11, 2014)

Original paint and patina !!! 
Is the way  to go why ?? Because anyone can get a bike restored so it is not as rare even though can be beautiful and have all
The right parts but they will
Never be the same quality as an original built bike we just don't have the same resources as they did back then even though we are more advanced nothing beats the quality and craftsmanship of when they were built that's why we still have them hand built and painted better chrome than today is why they have lasted so long !!! 

Ps. I have seen some beautiful restores and they are super nice bikes but all of us can have one if we choose to spend
The Money . But an original paint patina bike is irreplaceable as there is not one OG bike that looks the same as they all 
Have there own story, personality if you will and condition  which  is irreplaceable either way we all
Love our antique bikes what ever your preference just please restore only the ones that are to far gone ... 



Cruising my Prewar Schwinn


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## rockabillyjay (Jan 21, 2014)

Here's an interesting read on original vs. restored:

http://barnfinds.com/pristine-or-patina/#X6BipvWSJcdZGb4k.01


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## catfish (Jan 21, 2014)

rockabillyjay said:


> Here's an interesting read on original vs. restored:
> 
> http://barnfinds.com/pristine-or-patina/#X6BipvWSJcdZGb4k.01




Very cool story. Original is the way to go! That's what I collect.


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## willswares1220 (Jan 21, 2014)

I love the patina or character of an original condition bicycle only acquired over a long period of time. 
It's amazing how much better an original condition bicycle can look with just a careful cleaning and preserving to make them look more presentable and still retain the character. I call it a semi-restoration.
If the bike is an unsightly basket case to begin with, then you have nothing to lose when you restore it to factory perfect and beyond.
It can also be very expensive to do so! $$$$ It's not in my buget.
You also don't know if those restored ones are pieced together from various parts bicycles or how many reproduction parts were added in the restoration.

( They're only original once )


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## skindel (Jan 21, 2014)

*to restore or not to restore*

4 me it depends on the age of the bike- bikes from the 30's or before can be resurrected and it can be real fun doing it but if its from the 50's like my 56 wasp i want it original -- you can find and afford them and in some cases save them as well --my neighbor a little old lady had a 49 phantom in her shed and knew i was into bikes said how much to haul it away---she was amazed when i wrote her a check but i also ride a middle weight from the 60s and wouldn't waste my time restoring one of them


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## SirMike1983 (Jan 21, 2014)

Original paint is the most pragmatic. That may seem odd, given that original paint is rarer, but I will explain. Over the years I've tried buying overpainted bikes several times and then stripping the overpaint to expose the original. It's tricky, messy, and just plain awful work. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.  I'm done with overpainted/spraybomb bikes. 

On the other hand, the original finish will age to the point the bicycle gracefully looks its age.  It "looks right". I admire totally new finishes when well done, but the bicycle often ends up looking "too" new to me. Besides, my painting skills aren't up to a whole bike. I wouldn't go beyond re-paint of parts. I wouldn't do a whole bike at this point. Then you have the expense of the re-paint to handle.

I've come to the conclusion that the best route is to get a bike with decent original paint and clean it up. For historically significant bikes, I would end it at just cleaning up the bike and preserving it. For rider bikes, after cleaning up the paint, get a matching, quality, oil-based paint and fill in where it needs filling. Blend it to match the condition. I am all for using computer matching tools and playing with paint consistency until you get a match that works. I want a bike with mostly original paint that also will have matching touch-up to prevent rust and look nice.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jan 21, 2014)

I think this I heart og paint started cause peeps didn't want to cough up the change to restore or take up the challenge of tracking down parts to complete a bike..... I love og but some og bikes are rusted to poop and that's not a way to collect things...some need love... You know this man!!!


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## MR D (Jan 22, 2014)

What I've read into quite a few of the responses is that we ALL would care deeply for a bike if the original condition was fair or better. If the paint is still in good condition, we would love to leave it be and display or ride it till the wind knocks the patina right off of it. Is THIS a goal...to ride it till it dies? Or do we want people to ask THE questions when they see it.....? Original paint? Repainted? 

What I see many folks doing is making their bikes rideable, despite the condition of the paint. The rust (to me) isn't a story line, it's abuse and neglect. I mean...would you be proud to tell someone admiring your bike that "Yes, all that rust IS original...I'm just to lazy to deal with it." If "I" see a bike with original paint that stood the test of time, and it was on a bike that was taken care of, I would be impressed...very much so. Rust...for the sake of being original, is NOT impressive. 

Original parts or not, each bike has a continuing story. As long as you've put your book marker in that story line, and tell the truth about what's been done, it only adds to the bike's history. You were once owner of that relic from days gone by. Did you help preserve the bike as best you could, or did you do nothing to stop the years of abuse and neglect? Just let it rot away in the name of originality...

We have the means...we may not have the original parts, but we have a way to keep the outer layer looking as if it were original (to an extent). Why not show off your skills as a craftsman, much as the original manufacturers were. Let the years of grime, rust and gunk from neglect fill the pores of your fingers, and make that bike gleam like years gone by. 

THAT is something that would draw my attention.

Mr D.


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## BB Rider (Jan 22, 2014)

*To Restore or Not.....*

Well said Mr. D.  Personally, I'm not a fan of corrosion and oxidation. All of the vintage bikes I choose to collect have at least 75% of the original paint and chrome. When considering a potential candidate to add to the collection, I can visualize the finished "result" after a little elbow grease and some love. It's gratifying to me to clean, de-rust, polish, service and ride my refurbished bikes. My philosophy..... If you can bring that great old bike back to some semblance of its former glory.....why not?


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## pedal_junky (Jan 22, 2014)

*yep,*



37fleetwood said:


> it's a bit of almost all of the stuff in the original question. but it's also more.
> I really love the soul, and sense of history in an original bike. it has the scratches it has earned over the past 75 years, the dents installed by it's original 12 year old owner, sometimes their initials carved into it marking it as their proud possession.
> I was discussing with another member what I thought was going to be the next trend in old bike collecting. I think it's going to be the "as found" bike. a bike with all of the ornaments, dents, decals, stickers and house paint it has picked up along the way still in tact. the more I think of it I really like the idea.




Funny, my 66 Racer had a small key lock and cable wrapped around the seat post when I picked it up from the Habitat for Humanity store. It's still there. Coolness.


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## 2jakes (Jan 22, 2014)

MR D said:


> What I've read into quite a few of the responses is that we ALL would care deeply for a bike if the original condition was fair or better. If the paint is still in good condition, we would love to leave it be and display or ride it till the wind knocks the patina right off of it. Is THIS a goal...to ride it till it dies? Or do we want people to ask THE questions when they see it.....? Original paint? Repainted?
> 
> What I see many folks doing is making their bikes rideable, despite the condition of the paint. The rust (to me) isn't a story line, it's abuse and neglect. I mean...would you be proud to tell someone admiring your bike that "Yes, all that rust IS original...I'm just to lazy to deal with it." If "I" see a bike with original paint that stood the test of time, and it was on a bike that was taken care of, I would be impressed...very much so. Rust...for the sake of being original, is NOT impressive.
> 
> ...





I hope this will draw your attention:




I received these boxes today about the same time you were posting your reply.


 The attention to packing is excellent...I'm still unwrapping ...








 original paint...hasn't been repainted .



handlebars ...











I still have another box to unpack with the fenders & wheels.
Although the pedals show wear...overall the bike is very well preserved, somebody must've
really have taken good care with it. I hope to do the same.




 Iver Johnson Truss frame. Year unknown so far. 

I'll try & post more as I finish unpacking...& locate a serial number.


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## SJ_BIKER (Jan 22, 2014)

MR D said:


> What I've read into quite a few of the responses is that we ALL would care deeply for a bike if the original condition was fair or better. If the paint is still in good condition, we would love to leave it be and display or ride it till the wind knocks the patina right off of it. Is THIS a goal...to ride it till it dies? Or do we want people to ask THE questions when they see it.....? Original paint? Repainted?
> 
> What I see many folks doing is making their bikes rideable, despite the condition of the paint. The rust (to me) isn't a story line, it's abuse and neglect. I mean...would you be proud to tell someone admiring your bike that "Yes, all that rust IS original...I'm just to lazy to deal with it." If "I" see a bike with original paint that stood the test of time, and it was on a bike that was taken care of, I would be impressed...very much so. Rust...for the sake of being original, is NOT impressive.
> 
> ...



 well said Mr. D.....


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## SJ_BIKER (Jan 22, 2014)

rockabillyjay said:


> Here's an interesting read on original vs. restored:
> 
> http://barnfinds.com/pristine-or-patina/#X6BipvWSJcdZGb4k.01




thanks for sharing this....what a cool comparison....


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