# '37 double diamond ratrod...



## BFGforme (Jan 7, 2020)

Took bunch of poop laying around and put this together, '37 double diamond frame and forks... triple drop wheels...'37 crank... As pedals....Bob U seat...super wide bars..blaster horn, just waiting for chrome chainguard from bicycle bones, super fun bike! Maybe I'll cut it and stretch it a little and put a 4" wheel in the back! American flyer badged!


----------



## Cooper S. (Jan 7, 2020)

Would be a shame to cut that frame up


----------



## mazdaflyer (Jan 7, 2020)

Too nice to cut up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rollfaster (Jan 8, 2020)

I believe he’s teasing about stretching it.looks great!


----------



## oquinn (Jan 8, 2020)

Bad Ass


----------



## BFGforme (Jan 9, 2020)

Had it for sale for awhile and no interest, was cheap! Taking measurements for the 4" wide wheel and figuring out how long to make it! Will make a cool custom! Sawzall is ready to go....


----------



## Cooper S. (Jan 10, 2020)

BFGforme said:


> Had it for sale for awhile and no interest, was cheap! Taking measurements for the 4" wide wheel and figuring out how long to make it! Will make a cool custom! Sawzall is ready to go....



When was it for sale?


----------



## BFGforme (Jan 10, 2020)

Month or so ago...in complete bikes


----------



## BFGforme (Jan 11, 2020)

Cooper S. said:


> When was it for sale?



Even had make offer, no interest till say gonna cut it up!


----------



## BFGforme (Jan 11, 2020)

For any of you all that is following, I have a straight"8" I totally customized and gonna try to put on the'37!!?


----------



## hm. (Jan 13, 2020)

oquinn said:


> Bad Ass


----------



## BFGforme (Jan 13, 2020)

Sweet ride...


----------



## BFGforme (Jan 13, 2020)

Grabin donor bike tomorrow and bringing home to put the 4" wide 24" wheel on the back!


----------



## tripple3 (Jan 13, 2020)

Super cool C model frame.
They make great riders.
Here's another I sold back in 2013
Straight seat stays doesn't change a C model to a DD


----------



## BFGforme (Jan 13, 2020)

tripple3 said:


> Super cool C model frame.
> They make great riders.
> Here's another I sold back in 2013
> Straight seat stays doesn't change a C model to a DD
> View attachment 1123743



Yours is different...yours is curved, mine, no curve....? Don't know, killer rider friend left around I put together!  Y'all tell me...


----------



## tripple3 (Jan 13, 2020)

Double Diamond is a 1935 B frame with straight seat stays, like your C model, but B model.


----------



## REC (Jan 14, 2020)

Here is my attempt on a '35 DD Frame:



I also have another one on the wall of wait that came from the classifieds here on the CABE a few months ago:



@tripple3 is absolutely correct on the statement about what a DD frame is, but there are other model Schwinns with the straight rear stays:
BA67



BC97 Like yours:



Even though they aren't true Double Diamond models as the '35 Model 35 is, the straight rear stay models still hold some major cool factor!

REC


----------



## KingSized HD (Mar 9, 2020)

tripple3 said:


> Double Diamond is a 1935 B frame with straight seat stays, like your C model, but B model.



Please help educate me and maybe others; how can I tell a "B" model from a "C" model when it's a bare frame? What's different? Does the lower top bar attach at a lower point on the downtube? Thanks for any help. Below is the '35 Model 35 catalog pic for reference.


----------



## BFGforme (Mar 9, 2020)

I believe if you're fist fits loosely between bars it's a"C" if its fairly tight it's a"B" model, of course depends on fist size.... LoL


----------



## Freqman1 (Mar 9, 2020)

BFGforme said:


> I believe if you're fist fits loosely between bars it's a"C" if its fairly tight it's a"B" model, of course depends on fist size.... LoL



No expert but I think it is opposite of what you said. V/r Shawn


----------



## Autocycleplane (Mar 9, 2020)

KingSized HD said:


> Please help educate me and maybe others; how can I tell a "B" model from a "C" model when it's a bare frame? What's different? Does the lower top bar attach at a lower point on the downtube? Thanks for any help. Below is the '35 Model 35 catalog pic for reference.
> 
> View attachment 1153192




The easiest visual is the top tube. Model Cs have a long section towards the front that is parallel to the ground. The B and BC style frames (straight down tubes) have the same tank size/shape as the jewel autocycles (A/SA) and motorbikes (BA) with a much more constant curve to the top tube - only the last little bit is parallel to the ground. Review the examples above and you will see what I am talking about, pretty easy to tell the difference.


----------



## REC (Mar 10, 2020)

BA has a nice curve in the top tube the starts right after the joint of the headtube and top tube. BC has a section of the top tubes that they are parallel for several inches and then the top tube starts its bend toward the seat mast tube. The photos of the "non-tank" bikes show this better than the catalog illustrations:
BA-97 (18" frame)  Gracefully curved begins almost immediately after the top tube leaves the headtube





BC-96 (16" frame, note the shorter seatmast tube) Top tube starts to drop almost halfway to the seatmast tube.



Another '37 BC model with the 18" seatmast tube:



Hope this helps to clarify the difference between Model C and "Straightbar" frames
REC


----------



## KingSized HD (Mar 10, 2020)

Thanks much @REC for going to the effort of staging your bikes and taking those pics! Those side by side shots clearly show the difference in geometry. (to me at least)


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 11, 2020)

hate to break it to you(REC) but the top picture you show is a 'b' frame-calling it a bc97-it is not. the 'b' and the 'bc' are the same frame-different paint schemes. in general the 'b' frame has the points pattern and the 'bc' the arrowhead pattern. there are slight variations to the paint scheme for schwinn built goodrich bikes also.  when talking about the 'model number' the letter prefix of 'b' or 'ba' has to do with the width of the fenders-narrow being the 'b' and the ''ba' the wide -only when referring to the model number of the bike. in the second picture you show a 'c' frame and are calling it a bc96-it is not. it doesn't matter if a 16-18-20' frame -its still a 'c' frame. in the third picture you again show a 'c' model and are calling it a 'bc' model-it is not. three strikes-you're out! the part where you say the top of the frame is flat/parallell for a short distance is for the 'c' frame. (please also refer to previous posting by autocycleplane) in general(except for factory defects) if the frame will take the motorbike tank it is a 'b' frame. the 'bc' tank also fits the 'b' frame as it is merely a variation of the motorbike tank-has no door/left side-has an internal horn/buzzer unit on the left side. just a side note-this specific information for the tank fit doesn't make any difference if a diamond-double diamond-curved frame-it just applies to the area that contains/surrounds the tank.


----------



## REC (Mar 11, 2020)

Sorry, I used the catalog photos for model identification. My mistake. It's what I had as a reference. My aim was to show the differences in the frame geometry, and I thought the photos did that. It appears that your comments regarding them would show the proper model information. Not an expert, but I wanted to show the differences in the frames. There are a lot of people here with a LOT more knowledge than I have. My whole thing with this is the study of the geometry of the frames. Based on the catalog illustrations and model identification, and the fact that the bikes I used as examples were frames when purchased I thought this was correct. My apologies to all for any misleading information I put in the post.
REC


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 11, 2020)

in general about the Schwinn prewar frames-specifically the 'b' and 'c' frames mentioned above. the 'b' frame was the flagship frame built by Schwinn weather it be an early dd or diamond or curved frame. it spanned a wide range of models and how it was equipped. from a fender only equipped  roadster to a full blown autocycle with floating saddle and cast speedometer housing! the 'b' frame came with narrow and wide fenders(special order peaked and gothic were also available). the 'c' frame was in general a 'lesser' model using narrower fenders with somewhat spartan paint schemes- few stripes on the fenders was about it. the frame usually with arrowhead pattern but also found with un-pin striped points. in general offered with lesser components-if any! the 'b' frame is also the 'bc' frame but painted different. the bc model was slightly higher grade than the 'c' model-having basically lesser equipment like the 'c' model. we are only talking 'frame' right now. to talk model numbers with prefix like b-ba-bc in front of a number(which designates the equipment) is another issue. for example....a 1936/7 Schwinn tanked 18" motorbike with narrow fenders and either a diamond frame or curved frame would be a b107 model. the same bike with wide fenders would be the ba107. (there is no different designation for the smooth or the gilled tank-just by year model at this point). also there seemed to be some restrictions/limitations on ordering of fenders in combination with certain frames. I don't think I have seen narrow fenders on a full blown autocycle!  any change to the frame size or the amount of equipment would change the model number slightly. and of course bikes could be ordered with special extras-springer or fore brake or the cyclelock just to name a few. separate the talk of frame and model number and you'll have it. the frame type/shape is part of the conversation. the model number -a prefix of a few letters followed by a few numbers is another topic. and of course there are the anomalies that occur-special order or those runs of bikes just thrown together to make the numbers or blow stuff out-the worst of these during the first few years of the war. i believe much of this was built at the dealers as 're-furbished' bikes offerings. its really simple-frame types or model numbers-separate language.


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 11, 2020)

no apologies necessary REC! this is a hobby and this is what the cabe is all about-helping each other out. the language of frame geometry(I like that...frame geometry!) and model numbers is confusing at times. I am living proof you can teach an old dog new tricks. I have learned things here on the cabe that have turned years of 'what I accepted as fact' around 180 degrees!


----------



## Autocycleplane (Mar 12, 2020)

Wow, the folklore is a flyin"!

First of all, @REC is mostly right - 38-39 BC9x models in the catalog are pictured with what most consider a "C" style frame, not the B/BC style frame like the equipped BC models and 36 Cycleplane/Motorbikes. Whether or not that was the case in reality - all or some of the time - isn't something that I know for a fact or care enough about to try and uncover. 

All of that stuff above about model designations and fender width is pretty much pure nonsense and should be disregarded. Complete fiction. 

The BA prefix show up in 1937 and applies to all models that were previously B in 1936. Wide fenders were also thing in 36, spec'd on most all B models by the end of the year:





Virtually every Schwinn-badged BA bike had the 3.5" fenders in 1937, the narrow fenders were relegated to the C by then. The 36 B style frame takes a one year hiatus from the catalog in 37, then returns as the BC equipped model in 38-39. And of course the occasional B/BC style frames pop up after 36 with BA level trim, especially from the various jobbers like ChiCyCo or Ranger, but certainly were not a normal offering from Schwinn proper.


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 12, 2020)

here we go again....  the pictures by 'rec' and what he calls them to be are wrong and you are wrong. even look at your above literature it says 'b' letter prefix(model number). the literature you show I believe is from the Chicago cycle supply and are notoriously full of errors. just look at the pictures and the model numbers-all shown are 'b' frames and it even says they are b-how could I be wrong but more disturbing is-how could you be wrong? a 'b' frame is a ''b' frame and a 'c' frame is a 'c' frame-no hiatus or changing of a B to a C!  and much of what you say just repeats what I say but out the gate you are always critical. you can and have been known to come up with great material-this is not one of those times. if you were to identify 'rec' postings you would come up with the right model number. so why the slam.....folklore....c'mon!


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 12, 2020)

Autocycleplane said:


> Wow, the folklore is a flyin"!
> 
> First of all, @REC is mostly right - 38-39 BC9x models in the catalog are pictured with what most consider a "C" style frame, not the B/BC style frame like the equipped BC models and 36 Cycleplane/Motorbikes. Whether or not that was the case in reality - all or some of the time - isn't something that I know for a fact or care enough about to try and uncover.
> 
> ...



review your own material-it shows what a b frame is-I know you know the difference between a B and a C frame! no-where on that page is there offered a C frame or C model(boys/mens)


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 12, 2020)

another thing....you mention jobbers like Chicago cycle supply. Schwinn was in the business of building bikes-they did not sell to the general public. they distributed their bikes thru Chicago cycle supply. chicyco had five buildings in Chicago-two dealt with distribution only-to other sub distributors throughout united states and they in turn to other distributors and retail stores-a network of distributors and retailers.  the other chicyco stores also distributed but were also involved in retail sales. Schwinn built bikes and didn't want or have the time to get involved with petty returns-defective(although very little with the best built bikes in the world!) or flat tires and in general dealing with the public. Schwinn was there to build bikes-period. (I will say though sometimes someone had an 'in' and got one directly-there is evidence of this on more than one occasion). in general-all Schwinn built bikes in Chicago were sold thru the Chicyco stores or stores in Chicago that carried Schwinn built bikes(and bought from chicyco!).


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 12, 2020)

my friend autocycleplane......posting #26 explains the difference between B and C frames. it also explains the difference between the letter designation B and BA followed by a number to explain mainly fender width or 'lesser' models within the B frame built bikes. please go back and clarify your points that Schwinn stopped building B frame bikes(hiatus! that's funny) in 1937 and when they started up again it was now a new designation-BC! the letters BC is a model prefix(of a B frame!). if I am reading your post right...Schwinn came out with a wide fender bike in the 1935/6 production year-took a break for a year and then came back in 38/9 with the B frame as the BC model-what about the motorbikes of 1937-8-9? something isn't adding up here! the motorbike of 1935 had wide fenders. the motorbike of 1936(and some into 37)still with diamond frame had both narrow and wide fenders. designations were B and BA in the model prefix. when the new curved frame motorbike came out in 1936-concurent with the autocycle that debuted that year it still had wide fenders. when the diamond frame 'went away' and the curved frame became the new flagship for Schwinn the narrow fenders 'went away' on the B framed motorbikes and the narrow fenders found a home with the BC and C models. using the letters 'b' to describe the frame type and also in the prefix letters of the model can be confusing and I hope I am explaining it in the simplest of terms for all to understand.


----------



## REC (Mar 12, 2020)

Reference from catalog pages used in ID of  my photos / frames:









Again, sorry for my mistake. I still see the same thing as far as frame size being indicated as 96-97-98 (16",18", 20"), though I see I pulled the letters from the improper year. Other than serial numbers, These were all three pretty much bare frames. There is an earlier post in this thread that shows the two Model 35 frames I have here.

Thanks
REC


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 12, 2020)

no problem 'rec'. I can see where the confusion comes in-not your fault. much of the Schwinn literature has errors-wrong pictures 'pasted' to mock ups-artist renditions-many are known to us-have been for years. clearly-the pictured bike does not match the description. in less than two seconds I could see the problem-it was the literature. they don't change frame or model numbers mid stream! mostly literature like this was sent to the dealer who could show a picture and order bikes for the shop anyway. splitting the hairs so to speak on what frame is in the ad and what is listed as the description was probably not a big deal. for us today as collectors-we see something like this and are thrown a curved ball-we are on the point of rage! the arguments get nowhere. we have to stick to our guns on what we know-keeping just basics -what is the frame-when was that frame built(era/year)-how is it painted-how is it equipped. we know the frame types by name-we know the model numbers for each variation. we can identify what we are looking at fairly easy. there is enough basic literature out there to properly come up with the what-when-why stuff. but throw an odd piece into the mix and all hell breaks loose! we become confused and for some at odds. thanks for sharing this-it is interesting stuff. I think if you came up with more literature of the same model-you would find things don't match the above pictures.


----------



## Autocycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

"if I am reading your post right...Schwinn came out with a wide fender bike in the 1935/6 production year-took a break for a year and then came back in 38/9 with the B frame as the BC model-what about the motorbikes of 1937-8-9?" - you are not reading that right at all. I just assert that the B/BC frame style took a break from the catalog in 37.

"the motorbike of 1935 had wide fenders" - yes

"the motorbike of 1936(and some into 37)still with diamond frame had both narrow and wide fenders. designations were B and BA in the model prefix." - complete hogwash. B frames were diamond style, BA were curved downtube. The wide fenders showed up in mid/late 36 on the B frames. It wasn't an either/or option with separate model numbers based on the fenders. There was no BA model designation for 1936 models. Re-read the ChiCyCo flyer above, look at the specs at the bottom.

"when the new curved frame motorbike came out in 1936" - again wrong. The curved frame motorbike was a 1937 model. 

All I said is REC is right that the catalog shows C style frames for the unequipped BCs. I agree, clearly shown. Whether or not that was the actual case - I don't think it is proven it was 100% one way or the other. So few actual BC bikes around compared to other styles like the C, equipped or not, that I tend to think one may have gotten what was pictured (C) just as often as not. I certainly can't prove that, and I certainly challenge anyone to prove otherwise with actual literature, etc. It's just not possible to make such a declaration.


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

1936 autocycle sa207 had a curved frame! the 1936 autocycle is merely a variation of the motorbike. the tanked motorbike with curved and diamond frames-both offered in 1936! by 1937 I don't think they plugged the sale of diamond framed motorbikes that much. this is common knowledge-thought you knew...mybad!


----------



## Autocycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

mr.cycleplane said:


> 1936 autocycle sa207 had a curved frame! the 1936 autocycle is merely a variation of the motorbike. the tanked motorbike with curved and diamond frames-both offered in 1936! by 1937 I don't think they plugged the sale of diamond framed motorbikes that much. this is common knowledge-thought you knew...mybad!




Everything besides the first sentence is completely incorrect. Show me any piece of literature that shows the curved frame motorbike offered as a 1936 model. Anything at all. Likewise for a diamond frame tanked motorbike as a 1937 model that wasn't a jobber spec. Your definition of common knowledge is my definition of folklore and not supported by any literature or actual evidence. In fact you are the first person I have ever heard assert this notion in the 25 years I have been messing around with these bikes. 

I wait expectantly for your solid evidence and I will happily change my tune. Otherwise your entire argument relies on one to disregard the literature/evidence and believe you because you went to visit Leon once and saw some magic beans.

You have literally claimed to be an "expert" in past posts, yet you have been proven wrong again and again. I am certainly no expert, but I know some folks who are and they don't claim to be one either.


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

seriously.....what do you see in the mirror when you wake up? gonna sit this one out.


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

Autocycleplane said:


> Everything besides the first sentence is completely incorrect. Show me any piece of literature that shows the curved frame motorbike offered as a 1936 model. Anything at all. Likewise for a diamond frame tanked motorbike as a 1937 model that wasn't a jobber spec. Your definition of common knowledge is my definition of folklore and not supported by any literature or actual evidence. In fact you are the first person I have ever heard assert this notion in the 25 years I have been messing around with these bikes.
> 
> I wait expectantly for your solid evidence and I will happily change my tune. Otherwise your entire argument relies on one to disregard the literature/evidence and believe you because you went to visit Leon once and saw some magic beans.
> 
> You have literally claimed to be an "expert" in past posts, yet you have been proven wrong again and again. I am certainly no expert, but I know some folks who are and they don't claim to be one either.



.


----------



## Autocycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

For the record, the model designation is based on the frame type not the fender width. I can't believe I even have to post this, but here is the 37 parts catalog page in case anyone has any doubts.


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

thank you for providing the proof you asked me to come up with. in the upper left corner-under 'curved lower front bar' you can clearly see next to the a207...ba407-107-97. the ba407 and ba107 are wide fender motorbikes. above that line are also more motorbikes but different frame sizes. under the heading 'straight lower front bar' (diamond)you can see b107..this being the narrow fender motorbike. what this shows is (what I have mentioned previously in this thread) that the autocycle and motorbikes with both the curved and diamond frames were offered at the same time. thanks for your help-appreciate it.


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

quote:   "For the record, the model designation is based on the frame type not the fender width."  so what would be the difference between a b107 and a ba107 if we are talking model designations?  for the record...….


----------



## mr.cycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

are we done here?  my apologies to thread author 'bfgforme' for taking this thread in another direction. many thanks to my friend and c.a.b.e. nemesis autocycleplane for a spirited debate and providing outstanding reference material as usual(I expected no less!). hopefully to the casual c.a.b.e. reader this has taken your mind off the corona virus that seems to have gripped the nation! have a safe week end!


----------



## Autocycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

mr.cycleplane said:


> quote:   "For the record, the model designation is based on the frame type not the fender width."  so what would be the difference between a b107 and a ba107 if we are talking model designations?  for the record...….View attachment 1155505




The B107 is a 1936 Model:





The 1937 BA107:


----------



## Autocycleplane (Mar 13, 2020)

mr.cycleplane said:


> thank you for providing the proof you asked me to come up with. in the upper left corner-under 'curved lower front bar' you can clearly see next to the a207...ba407-107-97. the ba407 and ba107 are wide fender motorbikes. above that line are also more motorbikes but different frame sizes. under the heading 'straight lower front bar' (diamond)you can see b107..this being the narrow fender motorbike. what this shows is (what I have mentioned previously in this thread) that the autocycle and motorbikes with both the curved and diamond frames were offered at the same time. thanks for your help-appreciate it.




First of all the b107 in 1936 did in fact come with wide fenders at some point, starting sometime mid-late 1936. Most came with the narrow ones, but most definitely the wide ones were produced. There are real life examples as well as literature to support this, time to admit you are mistaken.





The parts catalog absolutely does not show the complete b107 and ba107 models being offered at the same time, simply that replacement frames were available. You could still get the B107/BC style frame in the 1940 parts catalog as a replacement even though the style was discontinued by then.


----------



## kenny_hungus (Mar 14, 2020)

I could see you two living together    ….I will be the arbitrator here.....Autocycleplane is correct!!!!!!….also I owned the above 1936 liberty motorbike many years ago.


----------



## cyclingday (Mar 14, 2020)

I just stumbled on to this thread.
You guys are awesome!
Classic CABE debate.
What do you think, Clark?


Just to throw a fly in the ointment, the fenders had nothing to do with it.
They had B model 
36 Cycleplane/Motorbikes with skinny fenders, fat fenders and Aerocycle type fenders, drilled for the tail light with the riveted wiring clips or the tunneled braces.
They also had 28” high pressure wheel options for them as well.
It was still considered a B model.
BA designation came with the curved downtube.


----------



## BFGforme (Mar 14, 2020)

I have thoroughly enjoyed this! Learned a lot from all of you, always fun to have a spirited debate! Thanks to all, and for the record I'm not cutting the bike up, and it still is for sale! Hit me up if interested in it! BFG


----------



## Dave Stromberger (Mar 16, 2020)

Just a reminder, lets keep things civil. Lots of good knowledge being shared here. Debate is good, but civility is important.  Thanks all!


----------



## OC_Rolling_Art (Apr 28, 2020)

I am intrigued by all of this, and other spirited Schwinn history observations in threads here on the CABE... it seems to me that within the realm of Schwinn there were more part substitutions, undocumented dealer options, hardware store re-branding efforts, left-over-part factory builds, records destroyed by fire and/or the folklore that supports their existence than any other bicycle manufacturer. I am quite sure that the war caused a stir in just about any production line from thimbles to lawn mowers during that time, but Schwinn may have more than it's fair share of ambiguities.

How is the '37 double diamond rat rod coming along?


----------



## BFGforme (Apr 28, 2020)

OC_Rolling_Art said:


> I am intrigued by all of this, and other spirited Schwinn history observations in threads here on the CABE... it seems to me that within the realm of Schwinn there were more part substitutions, undocumented dealer options, hardware store re-branding efforts, left-over-part factory builds, records destroyed by fire and/or the folklore that supports their existence than any other bicycle manufacturer. I am quite sure that the war caused a stir in just about any production line from thimbles to lawn mowers during that time, but Schwinn may have more than it's fair share of ambiguities.
> 
> How is the '37 double diamond rat rod coming along?



It's still waiting for someone to buy it!!


----------



## Si33 (Aug 23, 2020)

KingSized HD said:


> Please help educate me and maybe others; how can I tell a "B" model from a "C" model when it's a bare frame? What's different? Does the lower top bar attach at a lower point on the downtube? Thanks for any help. Below is the '35 Model 35 catalog pic for reference.
> 
> View attachment 1153192




I asked the same question a while ago. As others have said, the curve of the top tube differs between B and C. The B is more open whereas the C flattens out.


----------

