# Wood rims and tires?



## NikeAjax (Mar 26, 2022)

Ahoy from the SF Bay Area!  I'm new here, so I have a few questions before taking the plunge of buying a antique bike.  I'm totally diggin' the idea of getting and using a bike from the 1890's-1900's.  So my question is about wood rims and the tires that go with them.  I see 28" as a common size, what tires do I need to use for them, and how difficult are they to obtain?

Thanks in advance,
Jaybird


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## Blue Streak (Mar 26, 2022)

Do a search here on CABE for _Robert Dean_. He makes new 28” tires. There are many posts here about his tires.


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## HEMI426 (Mar 26, 2022)

Welcome to the Cabe.


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## The Spokemaster (Mar 26, 2022)

Tires are actually available ....*pricey !* ....in excess of 300 dollars PER TIRE ! ....the maker of the tires operates as a 'niche' operation ....tires are labeled by the maker as DISPLAY ONLY, perhaps a bit of a litigation 'workaround' as he will say in a candid conversation that the tires are 'fully rideable' ....SF hilly terrain may prove to be a challenge as these tires were originally held to the rims with shellac back-in-the-day


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## bloo (Mar 26, 2022)

People who ride these bikes will often build up a set of wheels with 700c(?) rims, such as Velocity Blunt, to facilitate using clincher tires. There may also be some real wood clincher rims out of Italy(?) that accept modern clincher tires. There are quite a few old threads around here you may find interesting. IIRC Schwalbe has some tires about the right width that do not look too far out of place. There are probably others. @KevinsBikes sometimes has wheelsets available. Real single tube tires are expensive, and not easy maintenance, but they are correct and work on original rims.

Welcome to the CABE!


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## Archie Sturmer (Mar 26, 2022)

Welcome to the CABE!  Please post pictures at your earliest convenience.


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## NikeAjax (Mar 26, 2022)

I don't actually have a bike yet, but if and when I get one, I will be sure to post images!

Hmmmm?  I refuse to pay for tires that I need to baby, as I want to ride/use the bike as originally intended.  What about mounting steel rims to the OEM hubs?  Those TOC bikes look _totally boss_, but I don't mind faking the rims and tires so that I can ride it without having a heart attack in the dirt.  Suggestions welcome and appreciated.  I'm liking the idea of using a TOC-bike to go to use my TOC-fishing gear.  I'm assuming TOC is turn of the century, correct?

Thanks you for the replies so far 🙂
Jaybird


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## bloo (Mar 26, 2022)

These might not be the right bikes..... Maintaining the tires was a big problem in-period.

No reason steel rims wont work, if you can find some. They're pretty heavy compared to wood. The Velocity Blunt (carbon I think) is popular because it close to the right shape, and can be woodgrained. You probably want 622mm (aka 29" aka 700c) because it is the largest rim with good tire availibility and a choice of widths.

Clincher rims from the period did exist, but need research before buying if you find a set. They aren't all the same. Some wont take any modern tire.

There are also 635mm British rod brake roadster tires (aka 700B) that are pretty common in some parts of the world, but not in the US. You would need to find rims with the right number of holes in them. The only common ones are 40 (rear) and 32 (front). An awful lot of old US Bicycle hubs are 36 hole. It might work out but the odds are against it.

Others will be along shortly with better info.


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## Blue Streak (Mar 26, 2022)

When you are looking at TOC bicycles to buy, try to find one as complete as possible. Missing parts can be hard to find as a lot of companies at that time made their own parts and not everything is interchangeable. Also individual parts (pedals, hubs, saddle, handlebars, cranksets, etc.) can get expensive to buy so it is best to start with a complete as possible bicycle. It is worth paying the price for a complete bicycle.

Robert Dean's tires are around $150-175 each depending on cross section (1-1/2" or 1-3/4") and color. They do need to be glued or two sided tubular taped to the rim.

Velocity 29'r rims are a good clincher option. They are aluminum and around $80-120 each new. There are several Velocity rims that look good on TOC bicycles and come in different widths:
Blunt 35 29" (622 mm) is 35 mm wide. This is a good option for post 1900 bicycles.
Blunt SS 29" (622 mm) is 30 mm wide. This width is closest to the original wood rims on most of my 1895-1900 bicycles.
Blunt 29" (622 mm) is 28 mm wide. These are no longer made but can find used sometimes.
Blunt SL 29" (622 mm) is 25 mm wide.

Noah Stutzman makes new original design wood rims and a wood rim with aluminum clincher liner. Search his name here on CABE.

Clincher tire and tube will be at least $40-50 each wheel minimum. Also need spokes, hubs and assembly. Typical TOC front wheel has 32 spokes and rear has 36 spokes.

Here is a detailed post with lots of options:








						It's 2020, what 700c tires are y'all using? | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

The old standbys are out of production, so what do you like these days for TOC bikes? I feel like teens-20s still have suitable options but the TOC bikes are more picky with what shoes they wear to look their age.  I was planning to get singletube hoops and Robert Deans for my Columbia...




					thecabe.com


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## vincev (Mar 26, 2022)

the tires are very pricey. As stated above ,they are display tires.  I have this 1923 bike that I painted a new rim and used a modern 700 tire.Fit the opening perfectly and easy to find tires in all price ranges.good luck ........


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## New Mexico Brant (Mar 26, 2022)

Welcome to the CABE!

Wheels and tires for these bikes may seem intimating at first but are not such a big deal.  You just need to chose what works best for the amount of riding you will be doing.

Another solution would be to buy a set a wood rims with hidden aluminum inserts from Noah Stutzman from Ohio.  He is an Amish fellow so do a search on here to find out the best way to contact him.  These rims will accept modern clincher tires and people love them for riding.

The cheapest entry level wheels would be a set of painted or nickel plated vintage English roadster wheels as Bloo said above.  In California I would think you could find a set fairly easily.  Or you may locate a beaten down Raleigh, Hercules, or other English bike on the cheap to get these wheels.

Good luck


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## The Carolina Rambler (Mar 26, 2022)

I reckon I'll give a little advice.  Below is a picture of a bicycle I restored a year ago, and I have ridden about 100 miles so far.  The rims are original, 100+ year old wooden rimmed wheels that I rebuilt, with new genuine tubular tires.  Being as how I am on a limited budget, the tires cost me about $150 for the pair, so $75 each.  I got lucky and was able to buy a used pair, from a bicycle racer on ebay who was upgrading equiptment.  If your bicycle that you ultimately buy, requires 28 inch tubular tires, you should search on ebay for the following "700c tubular tire, and there will be many compatible options available at various prices, both new and used.  "700x32" is the dimensions of the tire, as they are now sold in the modern day, in millimeters.  This equates to approximately 28x1.5 inches, maybe slightly less than 1.5 inches, which is the dimensions of the tires that an 1890s bike is designed for.  You never want to buy a tire that is for example "700x23", because then it will be too narrow for your rims.  You should buy a tire that is no less than "700x32", and it will be good on any standard 28 inch tubular wood, or steel-clad wood rim.  It can be a little confusing at first, so here are some links that you might should check out as examples:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175180959196?campid=5335809022
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125213700921?campid=5335809022
https://www.ebay.com/itm/223817785877?campid=5335809022
One further note, you will have to shop around a bit.  Try and find either an all white rubber tire, a colored tire, or a white wall tire.  This will be the most authentic original look , and steer away from black tires, which are more modern.  Depending on the condition of your rims, this is the least expensive and most original option for you to use, from what I can tell.  Or Robern Dean.  It is important to remember though, tubular tires have to be glued on to the rim, and require regular repumping every few days if you're going to ride, and are more prone to failure than modern tires.  And 100 year old wheels usually require a full restoration to be safely and reliably usable, but it is well worth the money saved, and the effort.  Below is my 1917 bicycle with new tires.  To restore the wheelset cost me under $300, that is the cost to buy the rims, spokes, hubs, tires, and materials to do the restoration.  Good luck in you search for your next ride!


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## NikeAjax (Mar 26, 2022)

Excellent, thank you for your responses--really!  As a fine artist, aesthetics are everything to me:









JB


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## dnc1 (Mar 27, 2022)

Aside from the excellent rims available from Noah Stutzman as mentioned by Brant above, new wood rims are also available from 'Cerchio Ghisallo' and 'CB italia' in Italy. The clincher style  ones (for conventional type tyres) from 'CG'  also come with a carbon fibre liner that allows modern high pressure tyres to be fitted.
The 'CB Italia' rims are only available in the sprint style, for 'tubular' (singletube) tyres.
If you were to go down the English style steel wheels route and wanted to build (or have built) a new set I would source rims from The Netherlands, here's a link to an excellent source.....








						Buy Cordo Rodi Westwood Rim 28 x 1/2" 36H SP13 - Black
					

Order the Cordo Rodi Westwood Rim 28 x 1/2" 36H SP13 - Black




					hollandbikeshop.com
				



The Westwood style rims from "Cordo" are fantastic quality.
They are available in 700c (modern 28" or 622mm) and 700B (traditional English 28", slightly larger at 635mm). They are also available in aluminium ( powder coated black) and are therefore much lighter and roll/accelerate very well.  
These rims are available in 32 hole front and 40 hole rear drillings, or crucially for you guys across the pond in 36 hole drillings.
I use these rims myself and they have not required re-truing in the 5 years since I built them up; unlike all of my antique wood rims (tubular type) which are very sensitive to changes in air temperature and atmospheric humidity and require regular fettling in the frequently damp British climate!
I guess that's not a problem for you @New Mexico Brant, lol.


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## dnc1 (Mar 27, 2022)

I always use "tub tape", tubular tyre speciific double sided tape on the wood rims I have.
I use the type specifically for aluminium rims but it works very well with the antique wood rims.
I've never had any issues with tyres rolling off of the rims and they are regularly subjected to cornering at speed.
You could use traditional glues for such tyres but in reality it's a little messy, and time consuming to do so; however if you're venturing out on the boards they will insist that your tyres are glued on and not held on with tape.


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## NikeAjax (Mar 27, 2022)

I'm thinking I'd like to go with the "roadster wheels" if I can, sorta like having radial tires on my Buick:





But we'll see though 🙂

So what is fixing a flat like with clinchers?  How many of y'all use inserts?

Again, thank you all for your very kind responses--REALLY!

Jaybird


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## NikeAjax (Mar 27, 2022)

How many of you TOC-people use toes-clips?  I really hate riding without them: is there any way to attach them to rubber pedals?  Bear/rat-trap are simple, but, any idea of a vintage method?

Jaybird


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## KevinsBikes (Mar 27, 2022)

Here is a reference of what I have done, I did my best to offer something cool and middle of the road budget wise.  As always you can spend less if you do all the work yourself, and you'll have fun and learn a lot in the process.  It was a fun project for me to build a handful of these but these will likely be my last few I sell anytime soon.  It's getting tough to break even on parts, let alone the labor that goes into cleaning, repairing the hubs and lacing/truing.  









						Sold - 28” Faux Wood Clincher Wheels | Archive (sold)
					

These are the matte finish style I usually sell, no pinstripe.  ND S.M. Front hub is very nice shape, rear has a  blemish on the brake arm but a NOS driver and NOS 11T cog will make these last forever basically.  tires and tubes not included - these are drilled for Schrader valve but I only had...




					thecabe.com


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## locomotion (Mar 27, 2022)

well if you want to ride an old TOC bike, but don't want to pay for rideable wood rims, and instead put steel rims, then don't waste your $$$ on a TOC bike
buy and ride a bike from the 50's with steel rims!
you are already riding a 50's car ..... stick with that era


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## C M Gerlach (Mar 27, 2022)

Naaaah man,
Get wood wheels.
almost all of my wood 28 wheels run on cheap modern cyclocross tires.....they are fine.....like 40 bucks per tire....good enough if yer gonna ride it.


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## NikeAjax (Mar 27, 2022)

That thing looks very dangerous, you'd better send it to me for proper disposal... 😉  Can't have you getting hurt ya know?

What is the difference between maple and oak rims: I'll probably paint them as the ones I've been looking at match the frame?

Jaybird


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## dnc1 (Mar 28, 2022)

C M Gerlach said:


> Naaaah man,
> Get wood wheels.
> almost all of my wood 28 wheels run on cheap modern cyclocross tires.....they are fine.....like 40 bucks per tire....good enough if yer gonna ride it.
> 
> ...



CX tyres are good, I use a couple of sets also.
Just about to try a set of Schwalbe G-One tubulars too.


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## Barfbucket (Mar 28, 2022)

I have quite a few wood rimed bikes. I build the wheels myself, or repair them if it’s possible. I use 700c rims that accept clinchers to replace the 28s. Some of my track bikes came originally with 700c wood wheels and tubular tires. I build wood clinchers for these so I ride them everywhere. Like previously pointed out, find a complete bike, pedals can be extremely expensive and some block chains have to be custom crafted. I have a set of fixed gear wood wheels I built that fit on several bikes. Wood wheels need pretty constant tuning. Hanging them by the rims, clamping them in a J hook on a bike carrier will require you to true them before use. Just storage in various temperatures and humidity will require spoke tensioning. Eventually you will have to remove the spokes and put in a second nipple washer and start again. This is even true with the wood rims that have carbon fiber inserts. Last summer I did a 108 mile time trial on a track using a 1931 wood wheeled track bike with new
wood wheels I built. The front wheel had a wobble from the hauler after a five hour drive. I had to true that out and again after the race. Last spring I took A 1900 fixed gear wood wheeled bike to Asheville to ride on the Mellowdrome. I’ve fixed original potato chip wood rims by zip tying the rims to true spoked wheels and burying them in the snow for a few days. Then laced and trued them, letting the tension off and truing them 2 more times. I let them sit and every day for 3 days I retrued them. After a year they got tocoed again, but not as bad, still rideable as a fixed gear without rim brakes. The joints commonly lift on old originals. I use clear marine epoxy and clamp them as well as possible. It’s never perfect and requires joint sanding. I then drill a pilot hole through the joint and plug it with an epoxy dipped tightly fitting finishing nail with the head ground off. 






Two hanging getting bent rims, ha.Maroon and grey.


















I have one more woody, but no pictures of it.


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## NikeAjax (Mar 28, 2022)

BB, thank you for that heads up--you've given me a lot to consider!  Hmmmm?  I'm thinking maybe dismounting the rims between uses might help, eh?

Jaybird


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## Chad H (Mar 28, 2022)

If you want some inspiration for wooden rims then check out Ghisallo.
I have had these on a few bikes and they ride like pure magic.  I bought them from Ric Hjertberg, the founder of Wheelsmith spokes when he was importing them to the US. 
Good lugged frame/fork, Ghisallo rims, Campagnolo and supple tubular tires - nothing better.


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## jesus (Mar 28, 2022)

NikeAjax said:


> I don't actually have a bike yet, but if and when I get one, I will be sure to post images!
> 
> Hmmmm?  I refuse to pay for tires that I need to baby, as I want to ride/use the bike as originally intended.  What about mounting steel rims to the OEM hubs?  Those TOC bikes look _totally boss_, but I don't mind faking the rims and tires so that I can ride it without having a heart attack in the dirt.  Suggestions welcome and appreciated.  I'm liking the idea of using a TOC-bike to go to use my TOC-fishing gear.  I'm assuming TOC is turn of the century, correct?
> 
> ...



I'm in Pleasanton if I can help let me know I have a few bikes and can guide you.


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## Barfbucket (Mar 29, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> CX tyres are good, I use a couple of sets also.
> Just about to try a set of Schwalbe G-One tubulars too.



I have a set of single tube wood wheels that originally used 1 1/2 inch tires. I put CX tires on them. They don’t fit well as the widest CX tubular tires are too narrow. It’s hard to center them and I don’t feel comfortable riding on them on anything that has fast corners. I do use them on bike paths and they work. They won’t let you on a track with them. They said their not attached enough. I don’t like this solution at all and build new wood clincher or tubular rims. Here is a set of rebuilt single tube 1 1/2 inch rims with CX tires. They fill the rim better when inflated but the glue only grabs on the center and on one side.


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## dnc1 (Mar 29, 2022)

Barfbucket said:


> I have a set of single tube wood wheels that originally used 1 1/2 inch tires. I put CX tires on them. They don’t fit well as the widest CX tubular tires are too narrow. It’s hard to center them and I don’t feel comfortable riding on them on anything that has fast corners. I do use them on bike paths and they work. They won’t let you on a track with them. They said their not attached enough. I don’t like this solution at all and build new wood clincher or tubular rims. Here is a set of rebuilt single tube 1 1/2 inch rims with CX tires. They fill the rim better when inflated but the glue only grabs on the center and on one side.View attachment 1597249
> View attachment 1597250



That's a fair comment although the ones I'm using are only 700c x 31; although you can go much wider as you know. They are nowhere as knobbly as yours in the photo above.
I only use them on the road, as I do with all of my wood rims.
I wasn't advising track use with them and most tracks over here won't even let you on the track with wood rims, except for vintage display events.


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## Barfbucket (Mar 29, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> That's a fair comment although the ones I'm using are only 700c x 31; although you can go much wider as you know. They are nowhere as knowledge as yours in the photo above.
> I only use them on the road, as I do with all of my wood rims.
> I wasn't advising track use with them and most tracks over here won't even let you on the track with wood rims, except for vintage display events.



That’s the nice thing about the Mellowdrome, they let you on with wood. Thats a two day trip for me.  I’m using 700c x 33 CX tires in the photo.  There is a sports dome 65 miles away and it has a circular access road, one mile in length, around it. It’s also lit at night. No banked or tight corners so I ride on this. There is also a vocational center with a half mile circular drive that is lit at night and I use that to have a different experience. Both are right on the bike path so after speeding around I go for a leisurely bike path ride. The CX tires work on the circle drives. My main objection is that I just don’t like the knobby look or the gooey messing around putting on tape or glue on CX tires. Dirt gets into the large gape from the poor fitting tires and mixes with the tubular glue and you get an ugly black line. But they do work and is the only practical option for using single tube rims. I once filled a set of rotted out 1 1/2 inch single tube tires with expanding flex foam. I drilled a hole opposite the valve stem on the mounting surface to let out air as it expanded. Foam leaked here and made a mess. What a mess, it leaked out through the rotted cracks and got everywhere. It deformed the tires where it leaked, lifted some of the tread a little.  I tried to ride them but it was like having solid wobbly tires. They might clean up for display. Another good idea flawed in the execution.


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## Barfbucket (Mar 29, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> Aside from the excellent rims available from Noah Stutzman as mentioned by Brant above, new wood rims are also available from 'Cerchio Ghisallo' and 'CB italia' in Italy. The clincher style  ones (for conventional type tyres) from 'CG'  also come with a carbon fibre liner that allows modern high pressure tyres to be fitted.
> The 'CB Italia' rims are only available in the sprint style, for 'tubular' (singletube) tyres.
> If you were to go down the English style steel wheels route and wanted to build (or have built) a new set I would source rims from The Netherlands, here's a link to an excellent source.....
> 
> ...



I’ve been thinking of getting some Stutzman wood rims, the kind with the alloy rim imbedded in them. This might make them more stable and you could use higher pressure. I have an early fixed gear 40 spoke hub and I could buy an early 32 hub. I would also have to buy the alloy rims for him to wrap.


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## dnc1 (Mar 29, 2022)

Barfbucket said:


> I’ve been thinking of getting some Stutzman wood rims, the kind with the alloy rim imbedded in them. This might make them more stable and you could use higher pressure. I have an early fixed gear 40 spoke hub and I could buy an early 32 hub. I would also have to buy the alloy rims for him to wrap.




I thought he used just a basic aluminium channel section inside his conventional clincher rims. Which is attached to the wood with a couple of small screws.
I wasn't aware that you had to provide aluminium rims which he then clads with wood.
I could be wrong.
If anyone has a set of 'Stutzman' rims with the aluminium liners it would be good to see photos of how they are constructed.

I'm familiar with 'Cerchio Ghisallo' products and their 'Ultimate' (carbon fibre) lined rims; it would be interesting to see how this carbon fibre liner holds up long-term under changeable atmospheric conditions. 

Like you, I often have to retrue the vintage wood rims I have after every ride.


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## Barfbucket (Mar 29, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> I thought he used just a basic aluminium channel section inside his conventional clincher rims. Which is attached to the wood with a couple of small screws.
> I wasn't aware that you had to provide aluminium rims which he then clads with wood.
> I could be wrong.
> If anyone has a set of 'Stutzman' rims with the aluminium liners it would be good to see photos of how they are constructed.
> ...



The Ghisallo carbon fiber insert ones are no better than the unlined wood rims. They still get soft and need truing. I’ve had them since they first came out. The silver late 1920s Gloria track bike posted above started out as only a dented and bent frame and fork. I used nos first generation Campignolo telephone dial hubs laced to the carbon insert wood rims. It also has a cottered Campy bb, that is smooth as butter. Campy one inch pitch cog, nos Wipperman block chain still in the tin. $2000 for that stuff. A project that got way out of hand. The frame had dents removed, two new tubes, new track rear fork ends and a track alignment and rear spacing changed from 114mm to 120mm. A frame builder did this after I made it worse trying to fix it myself. The advantage is you can use higher pressure in your clinchers with carbon. The late 1920s silver Gloria track bike in my earlier photo has the carbon insert. That bike is fast. I feel comfortable with 60psi, I’m not interested in pushing to the max, which I think is 80 psi. My unlined wood wheels I use 30+ psi with clinchers. I haven’t read anything about Stutzman bicycle wheels for years. Back then he had just built his first bicycle wood wheels and the customer wanted alloy rims imbedded in the wood. Stutzman did it without any guarantee that it would work, he then built others like this. I don’t know what he is using now. I’m probably behind the 8 ball on this. He could standardize and save time if he used the same insert each time. Makes more sense.


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## NikeAjax (Mar 29, 2022)

Great input guys--very insightful/enlightening!  These last few posts make me think I'll just make a faux-TOC-bike, like say, from a "tourist bike", with a coaster brake, repro-saddle, etc.  This way I can make it a color-scheme that I like/prefer.  Things like always having to re-true rims, or broken chains, then finding a fix for whatever vintage part is amiss, doesn't sound like much fun.

I have waaaay too many collections already!  How's this for obscure?






Vintage scuba gear 🤪 Yeah, I can get pretty geeky too... Oh wait, then there's my vintage camping/hiking gear...





I try not to do Coleman, as it's way too easy...





Jaybird


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## Archie Sturmer (Mar 29, 2022)

NikeAjax said:


> I'll just make a faux-TOC-bike



That's why pictures help, in order to match the options to be appropriate to the bike.


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## NikeAjax (Mar 29, 2022)

"That's why pictures help, in order to match the options to be appropriate to the bike."

There lies the problem mate: I don't have any!

I have looked at a few on eBait, and thought, "Oh, that's real cute...", but don't know enough about them to know what's good, but more so, plausible.  I can fix damnearanything you put in front of me, but first I have to learn to identify what I'm looking at, which is why I'm trying to learn from y'all 🙂

JB


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## Barfbucket (Mar 30, 2022)

NikeAjax said:


> "That's why pictures help, in order to match the options to be appropriate to the bike."
> 
> There lies the problem mate: I don't have any!
> 
> ...



Here is my faux toc. It’s made from a Hercules 3 speed. I retained the cottered crank. I used a tall stem as the frame is small. I’m 5’8” and my son is 6’1” and it fits us both. I don’t like the mustache bars as there aren’t enough comfortable hand positions so 30 miles is the furthest I could ride it. You could find modern bars that kind of mimic toc bars by turning them upside down. The gallows seat post was extended by welding on a section of another post. The new Chinese leather seat was aged by setting it in a thin disposable aluminum baking pan filled with melted paraffin. The seat was slightly and unevenly scorched by the stove burner. Phillips center pull front brake, coaster brake on the rear. It originally had 26 inch wheels but I found that 700c fit this frame. The hole for the rear brake mount was filled with epoxy plumbers putty and a fancy point was molded sticking out the back. After sanding and shaping it was covered in a thin coat of JB Weld. I used cloth strips to wrap the bars and worked in quick setting epoxy. I’m cheap, but real cloth bar wrap and shellac would be better and easier to remove.


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## dWan (Apr 4, 2022)

NikeAjax said:


> Ahoy from the SF Bay Area!  I'm new here, so I have a few questions before taking the plunge of buying a antique bike.  I'm totally diggin' the idea of getting and using a bike from the 1890's-1900's.  So my question is about wood rims and the tires that go with them.  I see 28" as a common size, what tires do I need to use for them, and how difficult are they to obtain?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Jaybird



I purchased wood rims from Ghisallo in Italy for my 1898 ladies safety.  The wheels were then built by Wheelbuilder in Azusa, CA on period hubs that I sent them with the rims.  The tires are white Panaracer clinchers per the photo.  Even though Ghisallo says they can take more pressure you have to keep them below 30psi or they will blow off the rims - I know from having them do it in the back of the car.  The bike is quite ride-able.


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## Barfbucket (Apr 5, 2022)

dWan said:


> I purchased wood rims from Ghisallo in Italy for my 1898 ladies safety.  The wheels were then built by Wheelbuilder in Azusa, CA on period hubs that I sent them with the rims.  The tires are white Panaracer clinchers per the photo.  Even though Ghisallo says they can take more pressure you have to keep them below 30psi or they will blow off the rims - I know from having them do it in the back of the car.  The bike is quite ride-able.
> 
> View attachment 1601132



My Ghisallo carbon lined rim has black Panaracer 40mm smoothies on it and it takes 60 psi no problems. It’s on a fixed gear Gloria and has been ridden from Calumet Mi. round trip to Marquette, Mi twice, that’s over 500 miles and twice from Marquette to Wetmore, another 240 miles. It’s used most days in the winter on balance rollers. There has never been a tire issue. My other non carbon lined rims with Panaracer Gravel King slicks or Duro tires can hold 35 psi no problem. Their from Ghisallo and another Italian wood wheel company. I’m thinking something’s not right for you. Tires come in such a wide variety of sidewall flex and bead type. Are you using tubeless tires? I’m using both wire and Kevlar beads with tube type tires. I wonder if wire beads would work for you. My Duros have wire beads and are very easy to mount. The Panaracers were tighter but I could mount them easily. They have stiffer sidewalls than some others. 700c x 38 and 40mm black tires is what I’m using. Here is one with Duro wire bead on non Ghisallo rims. 32 pounds no problem. I wonder if inexpensive heavy stiff sidewall tires would stay on for you?


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## Barfbucket (Jun 20, 2022)

I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a toc bicycle with the fake wood rims I’ve seen for sale on this site. I have two with fakes I made and three with the real thing. Old wood wheels that have been bent fo 50 years won’t stay true, need a lot of adjusting, the hub races are usually bad and have to be a little loose because of pitting, if you can use them at all. The original single tube rims can take 33 mm cyclocross tubulars, but they don’t fill the rim so ugly black dirt mixes with the tubular glue along the rim. I’ve built modern wood clinchers for these bikes, but I ride with both sets. The wood wheel spoke tension gets soft as the spoke tension pushes the nipple head washers into the wood.  A 5 hour trip with the wood rim clamped in a carrier results in a wobble that I fixed before the event. So, I think it’s nice to have at least one of these old bicycles you can ride without having to mess with spokes. If you want a carefree rider then alloy or fakes make sense. We want to see these bikes used, but original safe usable rims, tires and hubs are gone.


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## Walters_Alex (Jun 20, 2022)

Barfbucket said:


> I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a toc bicycle with the fake wood rims I’ve seen for sale on this site. I have two with fakes I made and three with the real thing. Old wood wheels that have been bent fo 50 years won’t stay true, need a lot of adjusting, the hub races are usually bad and have to be a little loose because of pitting, if you can use them at all. The original single tube rims can take 33 mm cyclocross tubulars, but they don’t fill the rim so ugly black dirt mixes with the tubular glue along the rim. I’ve built modern wood clinchers for these bikes, but I ride with both sets. The wood wheel spoke tension gets soft as the spoke tension pushes the nipple head washers into the wood.  A 5 hour trip with the wood rim clamped in a carrier results in a wobble that I fixed before the event. So, I think it’s nice to have at least one of these old bicycles you can ride without having to mess with spokes. If you want a carefree rider then alloy or fakes make sense. We want to see these bikes used, but original safe usable rims, tires and hubs are gone.



It's all about enjoying your "ride" & having fun! Cheers🙂😄🙃


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## whisper2scream (Oct 1, 2022)

C M Gerlach said:


> Naaaah man,
> Get wood wheels.
> almost all of my wood 28 wheels run on cheap modern cyclocross tires.....they are fine.....like 40 bucks per tire....good enough if yer gonna ride it.
> 
> ...



Have any advice on removing the original tires from wooden rims? These tires are as hard as rocks. Thanks.


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## HEMI426 (Oct 1, 2022)

I have the same situation with an Excelsior  28in. petrified tires, I was told I may have to carefully cut the tires off. But seeing I'm not going to ride it and don't have tires to replace them, I haven't done it yet. I have no idea how to cut them off. I'm sure a Caber has done it and they may chime in.


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## C M Gerlach (Oct 1, 2022)

A very warm rim/tire.....you can use a blow dryer........A high pressure air compressor to force some air between the rim and tire. save it if you can.


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## New Mexico Brant (Oct 1, 2022)

Or spray them with the John Deere tire juice, put them in a black garbage bag, then place in bright sun on a hot day.  After they heat up (after about an hour) you will be able to work them off.  They will harden again.  That thread pattern has good value even in that condition. Please DO NOT Cut!


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## whisper2scream (Nov 10, 2022)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Or spray them with the John Deere tire juice, put them in a black garbage bag, then place in bright sun on a hot day.  After they heat up (after about an hour) you will be able to work them off.  They will harden again.  That thread pattern has good value even in that condition. Please DO NOT Cut!



Thanks for the tip.  Finally got back to the project this week and was able to remove them after some spa time in a trash bag sauna.  I was able to preserve the tires with minimal damage.  When you say that they hold value (though not air, for certain), I'm assuming you mean for display purposes.  Do you recommend putting them up in the classifieds forum?  I poked around in there a bit, but didn't see anything comparable.

While I have you on the line, where do you stand on riding 100 year old wooden rims.  Generally, the practice seems to be discouraged in CABE unless the rims are metal clad (mine are not).  I'd love to mount some tires on these rims - even if they're modern cyclocross tubulars - and take this bad boy for a spin once I finish the restoration.  Everything else seems to be in working order (or will be when I'm done).  Thanks for your advice.

~Chris


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## Barfbucket (Nov 10, 2022)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Or spray them with the John Deere tire juice, put them in a black garbage bag, then place in bright sun on a hot day.  After they heat up (after about an hour) you will be able to work them off.  They will harden again.  That thread pattern has good value even in that condition. Please DO NOT Cut!



I broke this tire off in chunks with my hands. The cotton was so rotten it just broke with the rotted rubber. Most of the outer white rubber was rotted away. It crumbled when I pulled on the rubber. Not hard to do at all. I think this tire was glued on with hide glue. Nothing dissolved or cleaned it from the rim, including paint thinner, acetone, xylol and hot water. I had to chip it tediously off. Nothing would dissolve it. The front rim had no tire and different appearing glue, xylol dissolved it fast. It rubbed right off.

















It looks like this now.


Rebuilt hub, new leather seals, cog and bearings. Ready for spokes this weekend. I’m using the original nipples. I have new ones but I want to keep as much original equipment as I can and still occasionally ride it. I have a set of new wood rims I’ll also build up
this winter.



Last summer I rode it around on some fake wood rims I made so this winter I’m rebuilding the originals.


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## Barfbucket (Nov 10, 2022)

whisper2scream said:


> Thanks for the tip.  Finally got back to the project this week and was able to remove them after some spa time in a trash bag sauna.  I was able to preserve the tires with minimal damage.  When you say that they hold value (though not air, for certain), I'm assuming you mean for display purposes.  Do you recommend putting them up in the classifieds forum?  I poked around in there a bit, but didn't see anything comparable.
> 
> While I have you on the line, where do you stand on riding 100 year old wooden rims.  Generally, the practice seems to be discouraged in CABE unless the rims are metal clad (mine are not).  I'd love to mount some tires on these rims - even if they're modern cyclocross tubulars - and take this bad boy for a spin once I finish the restoration.  Everything else seems to be in working order (or will be when I'm done).  Thanks for your advice.
> 
> ~Chris



Depends. They can have dry rot and look fine. The stock on my 1898 Mauser rifle I used for deer hunting broke. I was in the army in the 1960s and our wood stocks were practically indestructible. The Mauser stock looked fine but was like poplar. I ride either on new wood rims or on ones that look good and have been stripped and had teak oil and a sealer applied. But as I said you can’t always tell by the looks. I ride very little on my original wood rims, I almost always use wood wheels I’ve built.


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## bud poe (Nov 10, 2022)

Loving this thread.  picking this up from a chum in the coming weeks.  Y’all think this’ll buff out?


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## C M Gerlach (Nov 11, 2022)

whisper2scream said:


> Thanks for the tip.  Finally got back to the project this week and was able to remove them after some spa time in a trash bag sauna.  I was able to preserve the tires with minimal damage.  When you say that they hold value (though not air, for certain), I'm assuming you mean for display purposes.  Do you recommend putting them up in the classifieds forum?  I poked around in there a bit, but didn't see anything comparable.
> 
> While I have you on the line, where do you stand on riding 100 year old wooden rims.  Generally, the practice seems to be discouraged in CABE unless the rims are metal clad (mine are not).  I'd love to mount some tires on these rims - even if they're modern cyclocross tubulars - and take this bad boy for a spin once I finish the restoration.  Everything else seems to be in working order (or will be when I'm done).  Thanks for your advice.
> 
> ~Chris




I can say in my experience that if you start with nice condition 100 year old wood hoops, that they are quite rideable with modern tubular tires.

















I ride all these with no issues.....
some may say otherwise, but my results have been just fine.


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## C M Gerlach (Nov 11, 2022)

* the harley rides on 100 year old clinchers......not tubular, ......sorry.


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## whisper2scream (Nov 11, 2022)

C M Gerlach said:


> I can say in my experience that if you start with nice condition 100 year old wood hoops, that they are quite rideable with modern tubular tires.
> 
> View attachment 1729670
> 
> ...



Encouraging news. What tubulars do you use? Thanks.


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## Barfbucket (Nov 11, 2022)

bud poe said:


> Loving this thread.  picking this up from a chum in the coming weeks.  Y’all think this’ll buff out?
> View attachment 1729609



Here is what I would try. Take it apart, zip tie it to a true wheel, throw it in the snow bank, slowly tighten the ties over time, leave it in the snow, then after it gets straighter respoke it with a junk hub, getting it as true as possible. Make a hanging chandler out of it or display it. No matter how true you get it, it will want to become a potato chip again. For the hanger use a skip tooth chainring. The three cables could be chains. My version uses an old wagon wheel.


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## bud poe (Nov 11, 2022)

Ha thanks,  I was kidding this wheel is beyond hope.  It’s a 10 yr old Stutzman that was neglected.  It will get disassembled to reuse the hubs and spokes, the hoop will hang on the wall as a reminder of the perils of neglect.   The bike is a rideable machine otherwise and will ride again.  Can we get more pics and details of your red bike?


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## C M Gerlach (Nov 11, 2022)

whisper2scream said:


> Encouraging news. What tubulars do you use? Thanks.




specialized tracer 700×33


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## whisper2scream (Nov 11, 2022)

bud poe said:


> Ha thanks,  I was kidding this wheel is beyond hope.  It’s a 10 yr old Stutzman that was neglected.  It will get disassembled to reuse the hubs and spokes, the hoop will hang on the wall as a reminder of the perils of neglect.   The bike is a rideable machine otherwise and will ride again.  Can we get more pics and details of your red bike?



It’s a Mead Ranger.  According to what I’ve learned from others on here, it was built by GWM in 1915-17.  At this point, I’ve been able to break her down, strip off the top layer of paint and back down to the original paint job. Rebuilt the pedals this week and polished up the crank.  I’ll work on the BB  and headset next.  Hoping to save the rims and find tires to mount to eventually ride it.


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## Barfbucket (Nov 11, 2022)

bud poe said:


> Ha thanks,  I was kidding this wheel is beyond hope.  It’s a 10 yr old Stutzman that was neglected.  It will get disassembled to reuse the hubs and spokes, the hoop will hang on the wall as a reminder of the perils of neglect.   The bike is a rideable machine otherwise and will ride again.  Can we get more pics and details of your red bike?






Two piece crank



Homemade tool and impact wrench to remove the reverse threaded crank arm bolt



Bearing splitter, clamp and torch heat to remove the crank arm.



Pulling dents from the bent frame. An old crash had bent the crank bar frame.



Frame straight ing jig.


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## Barfbucket (Nov 11, 2022)

Barfbucket said:


> View attachment 1729794
> Two piece crank
> View attachment 1729796
> Homemade tool and impact wrench to remove the reverse threaded crank arm bolt
> ...





Barfbucket said:


> View attachment 1729799
> Sinfret seamed tubing. Reinforcing brazed inside, double butting the old way.
> View attachment 1729802
> Bent crank straightening using vehicle vices.
> ...


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## bud poe (Nov 11, 2022)

whisper2scream said:


> It’s a Mead Ranger.  According to what I’ve learned from others on here, it was built by GWM in 1915-17.  At this point, I’ve been able to break her down, strip off the top layer of paint and back down to the original paint job. Rebuilt the pedals this week and polished up the crank.  I’ll work on the BB  and headset next.  Hoping to save the rims and find tires to mount to eventually ride it.View attachment 1729764
> 
> View attachment 1729767
> 
> ...



Very nice! Sent you a PM on the tires


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## bud poe (Nov 11, 2022)

Wow wow wow, extremely cool thanks for sharing!  Impressive work


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## bud poe (Nov 11, 2022)

Barfbucket said:


> View attachment 1729794
> Two piece crank
> View attachment 1729796
> Homemade tool and impact wrench to remove the reverse threaded crank arm bolt
> ...



I can’t figure out what’s happening in this pic:
Using an old frame to support the crank assembly and cheater to break it loose?


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## whisper2scream (Nov 11, 2022)

whisper2scream said:


> It’s a Mead Ranger.  According to what I’ve learned from others on here, it was built by GWM in 1915-17.  At this point, I’ve been able to break her down, strip off the top layer of paint and back down to the original paint job. Rebuilt the pedals this week and polished up the crank.  I’ll work on the BB  and headset next.  Hoping to save the rims and find tires to mount to eventually ride it.View attachment 1729764
> 
> View attachment 1729767
> 
> ...



Today’s project was to clean up the bottom bracket pieces. First time working on bearings that apparently cannot be removed from the races. The bottom bracket shell as it looked before the over paint was removed.


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## Barfbucket (Nov 12, 2022)

whisper2scream said:


> Today’s project was to clean up the bottom bracket pieces. First time working on bearings that apparently cannot be removed from the races. The bottom bracket shell as it looked before the over paint was removed.
> 
> View attachment 1730184
> 
> View attachment 1730185



I remove and replace bb like those. Harbor freight has a set of inexpensive pliers with needle attachments. They sometimes have a small hole on each side of the retainer clip gap so the pliers can fit and compress out the gap. I’ve drilled small holes in a front hub bb clip that had no holes and then removed the clip. The spring steel is very hard to drill. You might only have to drill part way through to get enough purchase to compress the spring. I’ve twice found these slightly bent, once in a bb, once in a rear hub. I speculate that these had been previously repacked. They are quite easy to straighten.


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## whisper2scream (Nov 12, 2022)

No such holes, but thanks for the tip.  Considering how much riding this bike will get, I think I'll just leave them intact and pack them with fresh grease. Not my normal practice, for sure, but I think it's the best course of action in this case.  Thanks again for the insight.
~Chris


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## Barfbucket (Nov 12, 2022)

whisper2scream said:


> No such holes, but thanks for the tip.  Considering how much riding this bike will get, I think I'll just leave them intact and pack them with fresh grease. Not my normal practice, for sure, but I think it's the best course of action in this case.  Thanks again for the insight.
> ~Chris



Here is a hub I’m rebuilding today. I drilled holes part way through the clips. The right hand clip has only one partial hole and I could still compress it enough for it to come out.


Here is the spring clip pliers, I paid about $5 for them.




Oddly the rear hub had holes in the clips. Notice the original rotted leather seal in the upper part of the photo. I had to make new ones.


Finished rebuild with new ball bearings and homemade leather seals.


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