# 1950 Raleigh Clubman



## slowride (Jun 16, 2019)

Lighting has struck twice in one week! (Last week was Rudge Pathfinder ).

This looks all original down to high pressure Dunlop tires still being present.

4speed FM hub dated September, 1950

Can someone point me in direction of procedure for FM overhaul if greatly different than AW?
Any advice on how to remove remains of grips from bars? Source for replacements?
Saddle has superficial cracks but no tears; an age old question but only proofhide or some other process ? (I have heard of localized sanding to remove cracks; is this heretical?)
Would like to source correct wing nuts as outfitted on non export versions. Anyone know which are correct ones? Appreciate any advice!


----------



## juvela (Jun 16, 2019)

-----

Congratulations on yet another most excellent find!  

---

Saddle -

you need a consultation with member @rhm (Rudi)
he visits here only intermittently so your fastest way to contact would be a PM over at BF

---

another Lucas cyclometer!

---

what is the stem on this machine?

are you able to make out the writing on the shop transfer?
appears it may be one of the type shops could order from trade associations.

IIRC GB may have offered a hood to fit this model of lever.

---

do you know if clip style headset comes from Brampton or from T.D. Cross?
IIRC it takes 26 5/32" balls per race.

---

shall look forward to following along as your work progresses with the new arrival.  

-----


----------



## SirMike1983 (Jun 17, 2019)

Grips - the old ones are shot. If they'll come in one piece, I use a utility knife to make a slit in the grip, then pull off each half. If it's beyond that point, then I usually remove with a putty knife if I can chip them away. Any remaining "goo" from the grips is wiped clean with acetone or rubbing alcohol, whichever I happen to have on hand. Don't get any solvents on the paint - they won't hurt the plating, but they can pull paint if you are sloppy.

With an old saddle like that, I use a Proofhide. I haven't ever tried sanding surface cracks, and I don't think it is necessary to do so. Check around the rivets (especially the nose ones) for deeper tears. If the saddle is structurally OK, apply proofhide per the usual instructions. It may be necessary to do a second coat after a couple of days if the saddle is very dry. But the second treatment should be more sparing. You want to get a little bit of moisture into the saddle, but not so much that you over-soften it. Do not tension the saddle while the leather is very dry, or right after proofhide treatment. It may distort or damage the leather.

The FM hub should get fresh grease in the bearing races and fresh oil in the core of the hub. You may need to blow it clean with WD-40 before re-lubing. General maintenance is somewhat different from the AW. Some of the FM series hubs have a fault with the left-side ball cup whereby the ball cup teeth break off and destroy the hub if the rider attempts to ride the bike after the tooth has broken free. (see http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/sa-maintenance-blakeley-rest.html ). You'll want to check closely for rattling or play in the hub that indicate something would be wrong. I'd clean the hub first and then see what turns up.  Sturmey materials are online here: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/fc.html .

The purpose of the FM is to give four gears in relatively close (the FC is even closer) ratio. This gives the rider a good chance at accelerating through the gears quickly from a start and then hitting a desired cadence. The trade-off is you lose some of the overall range that you get on the general-purpose AW and FW hubs. I like the FW better for hills but the FM is good if you're a stronger rider or have a flatter area where you're riding.


----------



## bikerbluz (Jun 17, 2019)

Very nice ride, congrats! Looks like it will clean up beautifully. Love the graphics.


----------



## rhm (Jun 17, 2019)

(My thanks to Roger for alerting me to this thread!  :thumb

Beautiful bike!

Your saddle looks like it's in excellent cosmetic shape.  I would have no hesitation letting it soak up as much pure neatsfoot oil as it will take (not to be confused with neatsfoot oil compound), or rubbing something like Proofide on the surface.  You can do both --but do the oil first, the paste second.  But you should face the fact that as sporting equipment this saddle has no future.  It is a lovely antique, and may tolerate a few miles of riding, but if you treat it like a new leather saddle it will be a broken leather saddle before long.  I would find another seat post and another saddle and use those for riding, keep these for when you display the bike (I suggest a new seatpost because it's easier to change seat posts than saddles, and 25.4 mm seat posts are a dime a dozen anyway).

The original fenders are pretty lovely too!  And sadly they are just as fragile as the saddle, at this point.  Don't ride this bike in cold weather, it makes the fenders really brittle, and they can shatter.


----------



## juvela (Jun 17, 2019)

-----

Wonderful post Maestro Rudi, much appreciated!  

With neatsfoot oil treatments do you have any recommendations for seasoning/weathering post treatment to get saddle to where it does not stain clothing?  Appreciate one can always use a plastic cover...  Do not plan on riding in me white cricket trousers!

Very minor pillar note - since frame is Reynolds plain gauge would expect a pillar waistline of at least 26.2.

-----


----------



## 3-speeder (Jun 17, 2019)

Nice looking bike and really cool find.  That roached Brooks bag is somewhat of a piece of art, a true wall hanger.


----------



## slowride (Jun 17, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Congratulations on yet another most excellent find!
> 
> ...



















From Jack’s Bike shop Det,Mi ; same shop my ‘73 Comp. came from...

Not sure about headset; still doing research. Here is ‘50 catalog.

@chughes1 recently sold a ‘51 ; might you know sir the maker of the headset /clip?
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/classic-1951-raleigh-clubman-reduced-500.128924/


----------



## slowride (Jun 17, 2019)

Thank you Rudi for advice on saddle ! ; will only use for display; looks like someone tied a rope around saddle to secure bike off the ground there was a rope around stem in front ...
I believe they called these fenders “quick-fit” because of wing nuts affixing the braces. 

EDIT: thanks Mike and Andrew for feedback on celluloid repair below; I will attempt to repair at minimum the front fender hairline but regardless fenders will join the saddle as display only...


----------



## slowride (Jun 17, 2019)

Pillar measuring 25.4mm dia

Confirmed tires are original Dunlops


----------



## slowride (Jun 17, 2019)

SirMike1983 said:


> Grips - the old ones are shot. If they'll come in one piece, I use a utility knife to make a slit in the grip, then pull off each half. If it's beyond that point, then I usually remove with a putty knife if I can chip them away. Any remaining "goo" from the grips is wiped clean with acetone or rubbing alcohol, whichever I happen to have on hand. Don't get any solvents on the paint - they won't hurt the plating, but they can pull paint if you are sloppy.
> 
> With an old saddle like that, I use a Proofhide. I haven't ever tried sanding surface cracks, and I don't think it is necessary to do so. Check around the rivets (especially the nose ones) for deeper tears. If the saddle is structurally OK, apply proofhide per the usual instructions. It may be necessary to do a second coat after a couple of days if the saddle is very dry. But the second treatment should be more sparing. You want to get a little bit of moisture into the saddle, but not so much that you over-soften it. Do not tension the saddle while the leather is very dry, or right after proofhide treatment. It may distort or damage the leather.
> 
> ...




Many thanks Mike for all info on FM, saddle, and grips. Instead of flip top filler there is a spring loaded ball fitting (as is bottom bracket) as if made for special proprietary oil dispenser . Looks to me similar to grease fitting. Guess I will have to unscrew. I’ve always disassembled and cleaned AWs but Since parts more difficult to source for FM /FC and therefore risk of opening up and damaging , you think safer to just flush it and add oil and grease bearings? Some say not to use wd40 as residues will remain behind cut the oil when added later, etc. is this just people going overboard   or should first flush with wd40 then mineral spirits?


----------



## juvela (Jun 17, 2019)

-----

Thanks very much for the additional images and information.  

---

wrt mudguards -

you might have a go at solvent bonding the cracks before going at them with epoxy or super glue

solvent bonding can "melt" the crack back together

it is the material used to assemble items from plexiglass

---

wrt catalogue entry -

now you are going to have to take up pipe smoking!   

---

shop transfer -

fascinating as the way it weathers it exposes the original manufacturer's transfer underneath

---

delighted to see who was correct as to pillar size...

...some folk should not be let near a turing thingus keyboard  :eek:

---

shall look forward to seeing frame after it exits the ablutional tub 

-----


----------



## Andrew Gorman (Jun 17, 2019)

I don't know what polymer the fenders are made out of,  but if you find a solvent cement that contains Methylene Chloride it is a lot hotter and will bond more plastics.  Look for a specific "plexiglas cement" and check the SDS.  Hobby shops will have Plastruct "plastic weld" which might be easier to locate. My west coast local favorite is this stuff from TAP Plastics:
https://www.tapplastics.com/product...tyImoqL1SFi_JOCRD0o6SLazFNX9XRQEaAk3qEALw_wcB 
If it is going to work it will sit on the fender and leave a sticky spot.  If it is not going to work, it will bead up and roll off.  I would back up any cracks with an additional layer of plastic on the inside as well.  That is a very cool bike!


----------



## slowride (Jun 17, 2019)

3-speeder said:


> Nice looking bike and really cool find.  That roached Brooks bag is somewhat of a piece of art, a true wall hanger.



Inside the bag is a large reflector and the remnants of a wasps nest...unfortunately as I unlatched the leather buckles to remove from saddle the leather was completely dry rotted and immediately tore. Oh well like you said nice wall piece!


----------



## slowride (Jun 17, 2019)

Andrew Gorman said:


> I don't know what polymer the fenders are made out of,  but if you find a solvent cement that contains Methylene Chloride it is a lot hotter and will bond more plastics.  Look for a specific "plexiglas cement" and check the SDS.  Hobby shops will have Plastruct "plastic weld" which might be easier to locate. My west coast local favorite is this stuff from TAP Plastics:
> https://www.tapplastics.com/product...tyImoqL1SFi_JOCRD0o6SLazFNX9XRQEaAk3qEALw_wcB
> If it is going to work it will sit on the fender and leave a sticky spot.  If it is not going to work, it will bead up and roll off.  I would back up any cracks with an additional layer of plastic on the inside as well.  That is a very cool bike!




Thank you Andrew!The fenders are made of celluloid (nitrocellulose)which I understand is the precursor to modern day fully synthetic plastic. It is extremely flammable and supposedly today only used for making ping pong balls.
https://www.britannica.com/technology/celluloid
After all this still not sure what to use to chemically weld; will keep looking.

Cheers, Steve


----------



## Andrew Gorman (Jun 17, 2019)

Yikes!  Celluloid is very very flammable!  Look up celluloid repair on the web and there are a lot of sources- mostly on old fountain pen sites.  Most suggest some hot solvent and sacrificial celluloid filler material.  Look around for ivory looking table knife handles from the 1930s.  I'm leaving town say after tomorrow but I could send you one I have.


----------



## slowride (Jun 17, 2019)

Andrew Gorman said:


> Yikes!  Celluloid is very very flammable!  Look up celluloid repair on the web and there are a lot of sources- mostly on old fountain pen sites.  Most suggest some hot solvent and sacrificial celluloid filler material.  Look around for ivory looking table knife handles from the 1930s.  I'm leaving town say after tomorrow but I could send you one I have.




Many thanks Andrew for offer to send sacrificial celluloid ; no need to rush , I can wait; in the meantime I will study up on methods; plenty of other work I can do on the bike in the meantime; I will also use this method to mend the other fenders from the rudge I found last week .
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1951-rudge-pathfinder.153713/


----------



## slowride (Jun 17, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Thanks very much for the additional images and information.
> 
> ...



Your thoughts on how to treat the rust on the frame and fork?
1) remove the rust. 
downside here is if there is  rust under paint , will  lose paint. I have tried OA method  but did not like results because it’s indiscriminate; “eats”  aluminum, chromium and this bike has both. Don’t think best option.
Evaporust works well but pricey; how will bare metal areas look adjacent to painted ones?
2) leave rust: some people simply gently remove any loose rust and then apply boiled linseed oil (I know highly flammable) as it supposedly reinvigorates and preserves the old paint while preventing further corrosion.
Thoughts?


----------



## SirMike1983 (Jun 17, 2019)

Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) is often used to weld cracks in celluloid. Acetone can also be used, but it can cause bubbles in the weld if you're not careful. The solvent is worked into the crack by capillary action - gently open the crack and closing just a bit until the solvent works in. Once the solvent is in, the crack is pushed together and held in place. Ideally, the joint is clamped together overnight, but sometimes you just have to sit there and hold it together for a few minutes, and then set down over night (where you can't get a clamp to push it together). The solvent joint may take a couple of days to fully cure. After it has cured, sand and polish the resulting seam level. It's easier said than done. Sometimes the weld is not as strong as the original celluloid, sometimes it turns out fine. I've found the job to be hit-or-miss. 

Andrew is correct that if the crack leaves a "gap" of any sort, you're going to need liquified celluloid. Celluloid chips/shavings are melted into a thick liquid using solvent and then the liquid is worked into the crack. Cure time would be a week probably. Sand and polish the seam flat when cured.

If you're dealing with anything more than minimal cracks, I'd replace the fenders.


----------



## rollfaster (Jun 18, 2019)

Killer bike, can’t wait to see it cleaned up. Love to see them found this way!


----------



## SirMike1983 (Jun 23, 2019)

Sort of a coincidence, but I own the grey Clubman from the old sale link above. I bought it last year and put it into storage with family near my new place in Connecticut. I don't see any branding on the headset, at least externally. I've got the bike back together. I made a few changes, but nothing big. I'll be testing it out this week as weather permits.


----------



## dweenk (Jun 24, 2019)

"I bought it last year and put it into storage with family near my new place in Connecticut"

You have your bike and family in storage? I am outraged sir!


----------



## SirMike1983 (Jun 24, 2019)

Well it was climate-controlled storage. They all made it fine. No relatives or bike parts lost.


----------



## slowride (Jun 25, 2019)

SirMike1983 said:


> Sort of a coincidence, but I own the grey Clubman from the old sale link above. I bought it last year and put it into storage with family near my new place in Connecticut. I don't see any branding on the headset, at least externally. I've got the bike back together. I made a few changes, but nothing big. I'll be testing it out this week as weather permits.



I look forward to pictures on the country lanes  ! That is a beautiful bike and glad it went to good home. Maybe a short write up and your thoughts on how it performs. Thanks again for all the advice.


----------



## leikonic (Sep 19, 2019)

Hi,

This is an excellent catch, congratulations.

Re: Servicing the FM.  If you have serviced an AW in the past there is no reason to be too afraid of the FM.  The bearings, dust covers, cones, etc are all the same, as are the driver and clutch components, pawls, springs and RH pawl pins. 

Aside from the obvious additional  components associated with the addition of the fourth "power path" , the overhaul of the wear components is essentially the same as for the AW.  

Someone else mentioned the issue with "tooth" breakage on the LH Ball ring.  If you find this you will have to find a parts hub in good condition to salvage the shell/LH Ball Ring. 

 Probably the most important area to exercise caution is with the two part indicator rod.  They are scarce and the LH portion threads into the RH "coupling" (rod) with a small diameter/ extremely fine thread. To add to the fun, the rod threads through a compensating spring c/w a small (but critical) collar and through a clutch key (not too different from the AW).  The Sturmey Archer service manuals available from the Hadland Blog are a great help in terms of techniques to install the rod, etc.

One other area to note is that the LH pawl pins are different from the AW.  Later ones were riveted (lightly?)  in place with a primary planet cage that allowed support of the pins from the back.  My 1949 hub has loose pins and a planet cage with no cut-outs to allow access for the "anvil" for riveting the pins.  This might complicate renewal of the pawls. In either case, the low speed pawl pins are different than those of the AW and I haven't come across any during online searches so take care not to lose them (although they would be easy for a machinist to duplicate).

The  clutch, low speed  and   compensating springs are a "matched set" apparently and were sold together as a package.  Re; rebuilding, it is a question as to how critical this is -  SA changed the springs from a a stiffer set initially installed to a "soft" set sometimes in the 1940's so I suspect the warnings relative to the springs was to avoid mixing these two different stiffness springs.  It is a bit of a "moot" point as the only springs readily available currently is the Clutch spring and the likelihood of finding a spring set is pretty low.

Compared to the AW, there is more inherent drag in the four speed mechanism.  The manual mentions this: "The gear internals are rotated during freewheeling...., therefore, providing cones are properly adjusted, a slight pull on the pedals and possible rotation during freewheeling is in order".  I noticed this spinning the unmounted wheel and had observed some very light "polishing" wear on the outboard face of the Gear ring without any obvious marks in the inside of the RH Ball Ring during the servicing.

I would not be too concerned about doing the service.  The normal approaches apply; careful  disassembly , photos, notes and downloading the service and parts manuals from the Hadland blog should assist.


----------

