# blackhawk??



## walter branche (Nov 24, 2008)

i think i bought a blackhawk, tank is blackhawk shape.it has fenders like an elgin skylark, bluebird-counter balanced pedals,rear rack is blackhawk, ..if there is someone who can help identify ,please contact ,,wbranche@cfl.rr.com ,,,,thanks ,, this was purchased today from craigslist serial number is c4  a33560


----------



## RMS37 (Nov 24, 2008)

Walter sent me these photos of his new acquisition and asked me to post them here for comment.

The story that came with the bike is from the son of the original owner. He says that the bike is original and was a special order. His father used it for years and delivered papers with it.  It is badged Elgin, has the 12 rubberized mounting pads and carries a 1942 tag.

My first thoughts are that it appears to be an early Robin with a replacement fork, and an Airider/Blackhawk type tank. Elgins generally used Troxel saddles so the saddle, while not being typical, could be original. 

It is possible that the above is true and the owners son is mistaken as to the originality of the bike. It is also possible that the story is true and that the bike is original.

I imagine it was hard to special order an Elgin but if the original owners family had connections to Sears, Westfield, or were very persistent at the Sears order desk it is certainly possible that the bike might have been a specially ordered or is a design prototype or a model variant that was not widely distributed.

The one piece I noticed that falls outside the Westfield envelope is the sprocket, but that may be a later replacement.

The Airider/Blackhawk type tank was used on several models, some with double top tubes and others with single top tubes. The mounting hole location and number varies for these different applications and may be helpful substantiating the originality of the fitment. 

The serial number will also be useful for placing the bike in the Elgin continuum.

Altogether an interesting find.

Anyone else have thoughts?

Phil


----------



## RMS37 (Nov 24, 2008)

Here are the rest of the photos


----------



## Aeropsycho (Nov 24, 2008)

*Dr.Phil  Yeeeeaaapp!*

I think It was a Elgin Robin that got too close to a Black Hawk and a Aerocycle!!! 

I Give Ya 5 Bucks Fer it!!! 

J A M I E


----------



## Classicriders (Nov 24, 2008)

The only real Blackhawk/Falcon thing about it is the tank. I tend to agree with Jamie..  Would be fun to get some fine grit wet sandpaper and start sanding through the layers of paint to see if the factory tank paint matches what is on the rest of the bike.  Check inside the crank case and steer tube for nice examples of the original colors.
Great find either way for sure!!


----------



## walter branche (Nov 25, 2008)

*for sale or trade*

bike is for sale or trade ,if you have an interest please get in touch with wbranche@cfl.rr.com              we will trade for early bike items etc ..thanks walter branche


----------



## walter branche (Nov 25, 2008)

*a-serial number 1936*



walter branche said:


> i think i bought a blackhawk, tank is blackhawk shape.it has fenders like an elgin skylark, bluebird-counter balanced pedals,rear rack is blackhawk, ..if there is someone who can help identify ,please contact ,,wbranche@cfl.rr.com ,,,,thanks ,, this was purchased today from craigslist



the serial number on the crank housing ,is A


----------



## JR'S MONARK (Nov 25, 2008)

That is an awesome bike... a little 3n1 oil and pump up the tires and take er for a ride.. I'd actually love to get it... But it would mean bread and water instead of beer and pizza during football games... and that just one sacrifice that I am not prepared to make...


----------



## Aeropsycho (Nov 26, 2008)

*Sent You a message....*



walter branche said:


> bike is for sale or trade ,if you have an interest please get in touch with wbranche@cfl.rr.com              we will trade for early bike items etc ..thanks walter branche




Need the Tank... or whole thing!:o

Thanks!

J A M I E :eek:


----------



## walter branche (Nov 28, 2008)

*thanks*

hi, thanks for all the messages about the blackhawk tank etc.. i thought this sled was special, according to the offers it is like a wal mart bike,. the lens in the front fender is worth more than the community has offered.. ,, it will probably sit for a few years, untill someone like don AKA flat tire , REALIZES IT IS GOOD ...flat tire does quick ,honest exchanges and sales, we all should take a lesson from him,,. see ya walter branche


----------



## dave the wave (Nov 29, 2008)

*sell it on ebay*

you will get the value of your bike on ebay


----------



## JO BO (Nov 30, 2008)

A nice one just came up on Ebay. JO BO


----------



## Adamtinkerer (Dec 1, 2008)

I consulted the Elgin/JC Higgins
/Hawthorne book, and I'd say late 37-38 Robin w/a replacement tank and crank. While I've seen Elgins with sweetheart sprockets, they're smaller and different looking. That one looks like a Schwinn. I wouldn't be surprised if theres an AS & Co. on it. I've also seen a couple Elgins w/a Shelby/Schwinn Cycleplane style sprocket, like this later 30s Oriole I recently bought.  


  Also, the earlier Robins are shown with straight upper rear frame stays, and the fall 37 and later show slightly curved stays as on this bike. ~Adam


----------



## RMS37 (Dec 1, 2008)

Whether or not Walter?s bike started life as a Robin or with the Blackhawk tank the frame is identical to an Early Robin. In addition the ?A? serial number dates the frame as 1936 Westfield production.

The reason the seat stays appear more curved than the catalog illustration is that the photo is a ? view. The early robin stays have a slight curve when viewed from the side and a more pronounced curve if you view them from the front or rear (check out the catalog illustration for the Robin for spring-summer 1937.

The significant difference between the early and late Robin frames is that the junction point of the top tube and seat stays was raised several inches in mid-late 1937 as the original design overstressed the un-braced upper portion of the seat tube causing bending and eventual failure. 

The later Robin frames appear to be the same as the Westfield built Sears Oriole frame, the difference there being the addition of a lower top tube on the Oriole. 

The other difference between early and late is that early Robin frames do not have dropout ears as they were meant to use a pencil side stand instead of a drop stand. Late Robin frames sprouted ears (even though they weren?t used) probably because once there were no differences save the lower top tube it was easier to build the two frames otherwise identically.

This also brings up something to note about the Oriole you purchased off eBay.

The Curved tube Oriole frame is a rather uncommon bike especially so considering it was a middle line bread and butter Sears bike. The bike was offered over four catalogs with little change outside of accessories and paint colors. 

But... Your bike is a _maverick_ built by Murray Ohio rather than Westfield. A few months back the same frame variation appeared on eBay. The pictures were terrible and at the time I thought someone had welded two bikes together.  Then your bike turned up. It is only the second I have ever seen and I was blown away that Murray had gone to such lengths to suck up to Sears and offer a copy of the Westfield bike. The give away is the manufactured head tube and the wishbone seat stays, both of which are Murray production hallmarks. The fork is also a distinctive MO item. The recent appearance of Murray Orioles and possibly Monark Elgin Moto-balloons (see Ratrodbikes for that one) has really surprised me. 

I suspect your Oriole has a serial number more in keeping with MO bikes rather than Westfield bikes and I would be very interested in knowing how the bike is stamped if you would be willing to share.

Thanks,

Phil Marshall


----------



## Adamtinkerer (Dec 9, 2008)

"I suspect your Oriole has a serial number more in keeping with MO bikes rather than Westfield bikes and I would be very interested in knowing how the bike is stamped if you would be willing to share."   Good eye, Phil! I'd always associated the curved seat post bikes with Murray, but a quick scan of the Elgin book, and I realized you are correct, sir! I dashed to the basement to investigate. the crank hanger is stamped S62081, very close to the bottom tube. The digits are unevenly spaced, and aren't in a straight line. they look like they were all from the same stamp set though. Perhaps these are rare due to durability problems. This frame has the top tube brazed all the way round, and one side where the second tube meets the bottom tube. Have you seen any original Elgins with this sprocket? I think the rear fender is a replacement, as it has red pinstripes. The catalog lists black with ivory accents, as are on the frame. It does have flat riveted braces, and is a gothic peaked fender as per the catalog. Ah, the tangled web we must unweave to determine what was original!! ~Adam


----------

