# 1973 raleigh record ace?



## slowride

Hello everyone,

Last few months I’ve been doing my best impression of @HARPO - the two wheel ornithologist of the east! First found 74 Super tourer, then 73 competition, then 70 tourist, then 74 Grand Prix, and now today, well ?...you tell me! The ST and Comp and are work in progress while the Gp and roadster patiently wait their turn (will post separate threads).
Fast forward to today. I’ve seen picture of these mythical white and mustard creatures but never seen them in the wild so when I happened upon a grainy picture I jumped into action. Now it’s home and with closer inspection I believe it is a RRA but would like the opinion of the wise experts here on the cabe. I apppears a “restoration” in progress with a mixture of original and “improvements.” It’s definitely repainted. Does not look bad. Black lug lining not done yet. Only 531 transfers and they are in wrong locations. Tell me what you think I should do. Are correct RRA transfers available? The badge rivets are not correct but don’t look bad. RD has broken teeth on at least one pulley; can I take from a prestige or something? Super LJ FD is missing as is part of shifter ( quick glance shows these to be quite dear). I think I see “Japan” stamped on BB lock ring so stronglight must be gone. Chain wheels look to have good teeth? Looks like Regina FW present and looking great on original AVA rims with Maillard 700s . Atom 700 with Christophe present. Sadly stem / handle bars/ saddle / seat post gone.


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## slowride

More pics


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## juvela

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Thanks so much for sharing and congratulations on this most excellent find!  

Do not know why you think it to be a respray but then your eyes are the ones on the scene.  

Purchased one of these new from my local wading avian agent in MCMLXXIV so know them well.

Regarding the black lining - it is not sealed (clear coated) and was often poorly done.  Such was the case on my example so I just used acetone to remove it.  Thought the bike looked better without the poorly done lining.

The orginal headset was a Brampton Alatet -

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?i.d.=84462C94-5F46-455D-B4A6-355EA1A6313C&Enum=111&AbsPos=9

Have seen two other RRAs where owners fitted Campag Record headsets.  Have always wondered how they managed as the Alatet needs ~37mm of steerer and the Campag 39.1mm.  Will be curious to read how much locknut thread engagement you discover...

Here is another example which has been fitted with a Campag HS.  Image gives opportunity to view the ex-works colour scheme including lining.  Shows original head emblem fasteners also -







Original stem was a 3TTT Record and orginal bar a GB Ventoux.  (3TTT did indeed offer the Record stem with a 25.4mm clamp rather than the more commonly encountered 26.0mm)

Original gear block was a Simplex 6V with a 24T large cog.

Some RRAs came through with Simplex Retrofriction downtube controls and some with Criterium so it is possible shift lever on bicycle is original.

The accordian pleat bottom bracket seal is not original.  Original was simply a length of black plastic pipe/tube which had been roughly chopped off with a saw.  The two and one half threads showing on the adjustable bottom bracket cup may be due to miscegenation of fittings...or they may be due to underwidth shell.  It was common for Reynolds tubing Raleighs around this era to come through with shells measuring ~66.5mm.

Original saddle pillar was plain and original saddle was Brooks Pro.

Cycle's wheels and brake set are original.  Yellow accent paint in brakes is not. Chainset, pedals, rear mech and gear cable guide original.

As you are probably aware, 1973 was the launch year for the cycle's Maillard 700 hub set and for its Juy SLJ gear ensemble.  The absent front mech may represent a bit of a challenge both in terms of search and in terms of dosh.  The correct first generation SLJ front mech was only produced for but brief period prior to revision so they can be difficult to locate...and when they do appear they tend toward dearness.  The same is true for the correct early type Retrofriction shift lever set in case you would wish to fit one of those.

As you are sure to have learned the 1973 RRA did not get into the catalogue.

However it did get into the U.S. dealer price list...





Enjoy!


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## HARPO

Leave it to @juvela  (Roger) to come up with everything but the guys name who assembled the bike, lol!

It's been slim pickings here lately, @slowride, so it's now your turn to keep adding them up on a weekly count. I can't wait to see the other bikes, and what you'll turn this one into when you're finished.
And to be quite honest, I had never heard of an RRA model Raleigh. Never to late to learn and appreciate something new. Cool Bike!

Post soon!!!!! 
Fred


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## bikerbluz

I really enjoy the lightweight forum and the wealth of info that is passed along. Nice find, great lugs on that bike.


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## juvela

HARPO said:


> Leave it to @juvela  (Roger) to come up with everything but the guys name who assembled the bike, lol!
> 
> It's been slim pickings here lately, @slowride, so it's now your turn to keep adding them up on a weekly count. I can't wait to see the other bikes, and what you'll turn this one into when you're finished.
> And to be quite honest, I had never heard of an RRA model Raleigh. Never to late to learn and appreciate something new. Cool Bike!
> 
> Post soon!!!!!
> Fred




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The Raleigh Record Ace / RRA model goes back decades prior to this.

It became a source of confusion in the 1978 model year when the manufacturer chose to employ it for an updated & upgraded edition of the Record model.





All me best to Zeppo!  

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## slowride

Many many thanks Roger for all info!  Thanks Harpo will be sharing more ...Yes I was looking prices for those Simplex SLJ and only found later gen versions ‘80’s at reasonable prices (50-80). Others stratospheric. I will get it all to original spec eventually but may need time. I see the 3ttt stems are not that uncommon. Have not checked the bars. If I have to put something on temporarily just to get it running and then retrofit I am fine with that.

Ok so even though I should be finishing the Comp. was curious on BB. Dust cap and arm came out easily and here is what I found. Should I source a replacement Stonglight BB? I have one in pieces from my 74 Super tourer that I’m waiting to assemble after spring finally comes to this urban tundra and I can give the ST a bath(OA; will be my first; post later). So I could at least check the fit is proper but since the ST has a cylotourist version two plateau of same type can’t see why it would be different Bb needed..

The reason I think respray is 1) rivers in badge don’t look OE and 2) the way the paint scratches; doesn’t look as robust as factory; 3) all transfers missing and not sure the 531 look period correct. but again I could be wrong

Thanks everyone!  Steve


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## fat tire trader

For comparison, here is a picture of my RRA. It is still in as found condition. I'm sorry for the picture, its raining outside and I haven't taken good pictures of this bike yet. When I look at my bike and your bike on the screen, the yellows look different. Lets see how they compare when they are both on the screen. I might have an extra bar and stem...
Chris


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## juvela

fat tire trader said:


> For comparison, here is a picture of my RRA. It is still in as found condition. I'm sorry for the picture, its raining outside and I haven't taken good pictures of this bike yet. When I look at my bike and your bike on the screen, the yellows look different. Lets see how they compare when they are both on the screen. I might have an extra bar and stem...
> Chris
> 
> View attachment 961353




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Yes, good point!  

The OEM yellow is definitely more "mustardy."

Have always thought of the colour scheme on my example as "white with mustard trim" rather than white with yellow trim.

Do not know what was manufacturer's term for this colour.

See that someone has tossed a Campag pillar into your steed.

---


slowride said:


> Many many thanks Roger for all info!  Thanks Harpo will be sharing more ...Yes I was looking prices for those Simplex SLJ and only found later gen versions ‘80’s at reasonable prices (50-80). Others stratospheric. I will get it all to original spec eventually but may need time. I see the 3ttt stems are not that uncommon. Have not checked the bars. If I have to put something on temporarily just to get it running and then retrofit I am fine with that.
> 
> Ok so even though I should be finishing the Comp. was curious on BB. Dust cap and arm came out easily and here is what I found. Should I source a replacement Stonglight BB? I have one in pieces from my 74 Super tourer that I’m waiting to assemble after spring finally comes to this urban tundra and I can give the ST a bath(OA; will be my first; post later). So I could at least check the fit is proper but since the ST has a cylotourist version two plateau of same type can’t see why it would be different Bb needed..
> 
> The reason I think respray is 1) rivers in badge don’t look OE and 2) the way the paint scratches; doesn’t look as robust as factory; 3) all transfers missing and not sure the 531 look period correct. but again I could be wrong
> 
> Thanks everyone!  Steve
> 
> View attachment 961317
> 
> View attachment 961318
> 
> View attachment 961319
> 
> View attachment 961320




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Well at least they got the thread of the replacement adjustable bottom bracket cup correct!  

Regarding correct stem -

OEM stem is _first generation _3TTT Record as launched 1971.  1973 was final year for it as was revised for 1974.

Raleigh was able to spec it to come with a 25.4mm clamp so they cuold employ the GB Ventoux bend.

This is an odd size for this stem and it will be difficult to find one with a clamp this size as standard for it is 26.0mm.

You may have to settle for an example with a 26.0mm clamp and fit a shim...

Do not be afraid to buy one without the two transfers.  They are available as replica replacements.  BTW - this stem takes a 7mm allen key rather than the more commonly encountered 6mm.





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## slowride

Ok here’s simplex catalog supplement from 1973. So what is left of my shift lever could be correct....
Interesting how they called them “prestige super” for a time...


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## juvela

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With your very good research you know that the machine's gear ensemble and hubs launched same year as the cycle itself.

Learned recently that the Maillard 700 hub was produced for Maillard by Etablissements Perrin (Pelissier).

Here is a trade publication advert from the time of the launch -






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Noticed that cycle's drive chain is a replacement.  Cannot recall what the original was.  May have been a Renold. Perhaps another owner can comment.  Since the model did not get into manufacturer's catalogue is it not covered by a specifications crosstable.

---

Shall look forward to learning the identity of the spindle which exits the shell.  OEM was a Verot Nr. 118.

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## harpon

Coincidentally I was watching an auction for one of these on ebay last week-  Incredibly clean, with no thought to bid, I came across it with almost a week
.  The bidding closed after I hadn't been paying much attention- it was up into the three hundreds and I thought it might fetch five or more with a flurry- it hadn't cleared "reserve" on it.  I was surprised when I finally went to see how it ended that it was relisted- irritating!

A nice piece, but a good club bike- not the top of the line or full campy-  I think I would have sold it for $660 myself...

Got some kids to ransom?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Ralei...otos-available-/283408908297?oid=283396265294


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## juvela

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Thanks very much for sharing this listing.

These are not especially scarce.  They come up on CL/ebay type venues from time to time.

The snag is that they have nearly always been reworked, rendering them challenging projects for the restorer.

This one is marvelous in that it is completely OEM,  just as it would have been ex-works.

...and it is my size...  

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## slowride

Here is the chain. A sedis. I thought maybe original.


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## slowride

Thank you Roger for the Pellisier/maillard 700 history. I notice if you look closely at the sticker on the hub you see the acronym “stc” which I believe stands for “selection tricolore course “ . I have also seen this in catalog for  heuret jubilee and Simplex SLJ components so wonder if it was French trade association for component makers branding effort to elevate reputation in high end components. Speaking of such a trade association fascinating article on vitus 979 https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-peugeot-px-10du-vitus-979.html?m=1

I have read that some people at the time thought the high end French components performed as good or better than campagnolo. I don’t know but with so many on my bikes I will perpetuate this truth/myth!

I  saw that ebay listing too. Wow! Needless to say I saved all the pictures as reference !


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## slowride

Previous owner/mechanic not my favorite person. Drive side dust cap 5mm mangled; can almost fit 7/32” Allen key; will soak with penetrant; tap with hardwood dowel; heat parameter then give it a shot: if not thinking I will try screw extractor as I don’t want to drill holes unless last resort. 

While soaking room off that headset and you’re right Roger; this only 1 3/4 turns to remove lock nut. I hardly see how that is safe. Thoughts?


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## juvela

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as regards drive chain -

thank you for the foto.  the ebay listing gives a closeup view of the machine's chainset.  chain is seen to be something other than SEDIS.  there appear to be markings on the plates but just not eno' "rez" to make them out...  

looks to be the wrong colour for a Renold.  the plate edges are chamfered but not really beveled as might be seen on a premium drive chain.

have no guesses as to maker.





---

as regards Selection Tricolore Course/STC -

the frankish cycle industry had had two competing export groups for a number of years.  they were known as FREXA and as GEFFAC.  IIRC 1973 was the launch year for the STC concept.

Campag was in a position of great leverage with racing teams.  because they "made everything" (or nearly so!) they could "sponsor" the pro teams but with the caveat that the team could not employ a single product which in any way competed with a Campag one.  the French cycle industry was at a disadvantage in this regard as there was no one maker of fittings in their industry which was as comprehensive and dominant as Campag was in the Italian industry.  hence the creation of STC in an effort to compete.

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as regards Maillard, Perrin & Verot they are interconnected going back decades.  perhaps the single most pivotal individual was Achille Haubtmann.  there has never been a "Stronglight Co." per se.  the name was one for a product line.  in its earliest incarnation one of its brand names was simply "Strong."  the maker was known variously as Etablissements Verot (for Laurent Verot) and as Etablissements Verot-Perrin.

for any readers with an interest in the history it is gone into in good detail with excellent documentation in this discussion thread at the Belgian cycle forum veloretrocourse -

http://veloretrocourse.proboards.com/thread/1095/les-strongs

here is one small excerpt to give the flavour:

{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\cocoartf949\cocoasubrtf540 {\fonttbl\f0\fnil\fcharset0 Verdana;} {\colortbl;\red255\green255\blue255;\red255\green255\blue255;\red14\green49\blue157;} \deftab720 \pard\pardeftab720\sl300 \f0\fs26 \cf0 \cb2 "Well, I am quite sure that Verot's forename has been Laurent and not Louis. By combing through old patent specifications I found some patents he had applied for. There his whole name is mentioned as Laurent V\'e9rot, Saint-\'c8tienne. I have attached the patent concerning the hollow bb spindle.\ \ Another reference can be found here in the indispensable collection of scanned and searchable issues of L'industrie du Cycle (http://www.bm-st-etienne.com/medias...cycle_2.xml&SYNCMENU=NOSPARTENAIRES&VIEW=HOME). There is an short article about the fact that on 18 of July 1962 Monsieur Laurent V\'e9rot has been buried. (page 27 of the whole PDF-file)\ \ And even Bernard Chaussinand names in his great new book Laurent V\'e9rot.\ \ As far as I can say by now the name of the company has changed from Ets. V\'e9rot around 1935 to V\'e9rot & Perrin, when Emile Perrin, V\'e9rot's son-in-law joined the company. Not until Haubtmann, also manufacturer of cranks and chain rings from Saint-Etienne has taken over it the company's name changed to Stronglight exactly like their brand established about 1931.\ \ As well as Achille Haubtmann has used his initials A.H. as a brand it seems that Laurent V\'e9rot did the same by stamping L.V. in cranks and chain rings made by his factory. Later the first l\ \ Read more: {\field{\*\fldinst{HYPERLINK "http://veloretrocourse.proboards.com/thread/1095/les-strongs#ixzz5i0xGcyWD"}}{\fldrslt \cf3 http://veloretrocourse.proboards.com/thread/1095/les-strongs#ixzz5i0xGcyWD}}}"Well, I am quite sure that Verot's forename has been Laurent and not Louis. By combing through old patent specifications I found some patents he had applied for. There his whole name is mentioned as Laurent Vérot, Saint-Ètienne. I have attached the patent concerning the hollow bb spindle.

Another reference can be found here in the indispensable collection of scanned and searchable issues of L'industrie du Cycle (http://www.bm-st-etienne.com/medias...cycle_2.xml&SYNCMENU=NOSPARTENAIRES&VIEW=HOME). There is an short article about the fact that on 18 of July 1962 Monsieur Laurent Vérot has been buried. (page 27 of the whole PDF-file)

And even Bernard Chaussinand names in his great new book Laurent Vérot.

As far as I can say by now the name of the company has changed from Ets. Vérot around 1935 to Vérot & Perrin, when Emile Perrin, Vérot's son-in-law joined the company. Not until Haubtmann, also manufacturer of cranks and chain rings from Saint-Etienne has taken over it the company's name changed to Stronglight exactly like their brand established about 1931.

As well as Achille Haubtmann has used his initials A.H. as a brand it seems that Laurent Vérot did the same by stamping L.V. in cranks and chain rings made by his factory. Later the first l

Read more: http://veloretrocourse.proboards.com/thread/1095/les-strongs#ixzz5i0xGcyWD

---

thanks very much for the fascinating link - great information.  

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## juvela

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regarding damaged dust cap on drive side crank arm.

the steps you describe are unnecessarily involved.

all you need do is drill two small holes in the cap and turn it out with a pin tool, as made by Park, VAR, etc

they only need to be deep enough to get the pins in - no need to go all the way through the metal.  if you make them out near the edge you can avoid the risk of damage to the head of the fixing bolt.

alternately you could expoxy something on the outside which could be grabbed and turned.

cap is toast in any event...

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## slowride

Got it out. Here’s the spindle .


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## juvela

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headset -

as mentioned in an earlier message, yours is the third RRA i have seen to be fitted with a Campag headset.  i made measurements on the one i owned and determined there was not enough steerer length for full enagement of the locknut threads.

noticed that on the example posted by @harpon the Brampton Alatet is wearing _two _lockwashers.  this makes me wonder if perhaps some RRA cycles received a slightly longer steerer.  the fact that the factory found it necessary to fit two lockwashers means that on that bicycle there may be adequate steerer to accommodate  a Campag set.





your situation -

there are a couple of "cheats"/"fudges" mechanics resort to in cases of this sort.  one is to gain adequate locknut engagement by eschewing the lockwasher.  this gives a "Raleigh type" headset arrangement where no lockwasher is present.  the locknut and adjustable race are torqued against each other.  it is a configuration difficult to adjust and difficult to retain an adjustment with.  one "fudge" is to apply some Loctite type product to the threads where the locknut resides.

it is possible to "gain" a small bit of steerer by milling the ends of the head tube and the fork crown race seat.  the space gained is small and may not make much difference.  perhaps only a half of one thread or so.

---

for full thread engagement of the headset locknut with the presence of a lockwasher it would be necessary to go with a different assembly.  the two options which come first to mind are an Alatet and the Verot P3.  would depend upon what one is able to locate at affordable cost.  the P3 has a stack height of 34.0mm and the Alatet one of 36.1mm.  P3 has rectified bearing races, is period correct and fits in with the cycle's theme of mostly Gaulic fittings.

one measurement to consider in changing the headset is the size of the fork crown race seat.  The i.d. of the Campag fork crown race is 26.3mm.  Alatet is 26.9mm and P3 is 26.8mm.  since we know bicycle came from the factory with an Alatet it would have been necessary for the fitter of the Campag to mill down the fork crown race seat from 27.0mm to 26.4mm.  if you were to go back to an Alatet or to mount a P3 it would be necessary to shim the fork crown race seat.

you are fortunate that you have an Alatet on the Competition which you could employ for test fitting if so desired.

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## slowride

I believe I have a Brampton alatet that came on my ‘74 Super tourer shown here?


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## juvela

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Appears washer lacks tooth (key).

Is steerer unkeyed?

"Usually", in the Raleigh lineup of this era if a machine received the Alatet it also received a keyed steerer.

Models below Grand Sport had unkeyed steerers and untoothed headset washers.

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## slowride

Steerer is keyed but washer is not. Might have anything to do with Super tourer having sidepull brakes (weinmann symetric)?


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## juvela

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CP vs SP brake should not matter.

Keying is odd for a Brit bike.

"Usually" flatted keying is a practice found on French produced cycles.

While rectangular keyways are the rule elsewhere in the world.

[headscratch emotikon fitteth here]

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## slowride

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> CP vs SP brake should not matter.
> 
> Keying is odd for a Brit bike.
> 
> "Usually" flatted keying is a practice found on French produced cycles.
> 
> While rectangular keyways are the rule elsewhere in the world.
> 
> [headscratch emotikon fitteth here]
> 
> -----



I checked steerer on competition (also sloping crown) and it too has flatted keying...


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## juvela

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The Sutherland Handbook refers to this headset as the "Raleigh Aletet." [Howard's spelling]

Velobase shows two "Brampton Alatet" which differ slightly.

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=84462C94-5F46-455D-B4A6-355EA1A6313C&Enum=111&AbsPos=9

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=5044678D-2729-44C7-ABC4-993CB82DEFE2&Enum=111&AbsPos=10

The recently posted Deane Toseland looks to be wearing an integral version of the Alatet.

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## slowride

Simplex freewheel is gone. Suntour replacement.


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## slowride

Prestige simplex script and other markings . Interesting that pulleys don’t have bearings while entry level  heuret Alvit of same era did...unless these pulleys not original?


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## slowride

4lb hammer, brass punch from inside head tube and many strikes later...
Is this a Nuevo record headset?
Brampton fork crown race has slop so must have been modified to 26.4.
















How to shim Brampton or stonglight? Otherwise Reportedly this Tange levin has stack height of 33.4 mm. It is available in 26.4mm and 27mm https://www.amazon.com/Tange-Seiki-...gateway&sprefix=tange+levin&sr=8-2&th=1&psc=1


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## slowride

I measure 35mm with this fork/frame using method I found in bikeforum.


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## juvela

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the VIA marking on the Maeda gear block marks it as noticeably later than cycle

probably not many of the OEM Simplex blocks remained on for long due to their 13-24 sizing

---

yes, pulleys appear original

if you wish to go upscale yet period correct you could go Bullseye

otherwise pulley from deceased Prestige would be just fine

Campag had ball bearing pulleys at one time similar your Freres Huret mech

they changed to bushings in the late '60's

---

the Campag headset is _both _Record and Nuovo Record depending on who is doing the talking

there are Record components which are part of the "Nuovo Record" road ensemble, saddle pillar is another

so HS is "Nuovo Record" in the sense that it is part of the Nuovo Record ensemble

races appear brinnelled - if you wish to extend life you could try going with loose ball packing

the 35mm stack height availability you measure is consistent with the Howard Sutherland value for the "Raleigh Aletet" of 36.1mm

Howard gives Raleigh Aletet fork crown race size as 26.9mm; for fitment to a 27.0mm seat

shimming of a fork crown race is fairly simple: an aluminum beverage tin and some tin snips can do the job

care must be taken not to permit shim material to get between underside of race and its seat

a length of metal pipe with an ID in the vicinity of 30mm can be used as a slide hammer for mounting if purpose made bicycle tool not available

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## slowride

Many thanks @juvela for all the information! I read that although the campag Record HS was very popular it was prone to Brinnelling , especially on rough roads ;  read that many were in fact replaced with stronglight HS which had roller bearings and harder steel.  Reportedly super record HS did not have this same issue...


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## juvela

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Stronglight roller bearing quite rare in its original incarnation.

Suspect you refer to later iterations.

Stronglight model V4 has a design where each ball touches races at four points instead of two.

This design effectively spreads the load out for longer life.  Also the balls are loose rather than in retainers.

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## slowride

I found a July 1982 dated what I believe is huret eco with stripped cable stop bolt as potential donor. The huret pulleys have 10 teeth , 6mm bolt, but thickness I measure is 9.91mm versus simplex 10.41mm. I was thinking as both huret pulleys in good shapes perhaps I move both to the simplex instead of just replacing the damaged one. This way the simplex plates will be parallel.


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## juvela

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If you like the idea of bearings in the pulleys you could look for a dead Freres Huret Allvit.  They have metal pulleys with loose ball bearings and red or black plastic "tyres."  Bearings can be adjusted for play, much like hub bearings.









---

returning to headsets --

Super Tourer's Raleigh Aletet appears kaput.  Lower stack badly spawled.  You would wish to replace at least this stack.  Years ago there was a sealed bearing replacement lower stack available separately called the Jacik.  

Unlike hubs and bottom brackets headsets either brinnell or they spawl.  Pitting seldom presents itself.

Should you wish to get the RRA on the road and not invest in a new set you could refit the Campag making sure that the brinnell dimples do not line up with each other between the upper and lower race of each stack.  Repack with loose balls.  This will reduce any ratchet effect of the existing brinnelling.  It would still leave the problem of thread engagement.  As mentioned earlier, you could face the ends of the head tube and mill the fork crown seat but even doing all three would likely gain no more than one mm.

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## slowride

Thowest say the crown’s race of Brampton ‘tis spalled?


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## juvela

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In this image it looks so.  Boy is that ever one rough race!  :eek:





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## bulldog1935

I keep covering my mouth because SunTour is the only RD from the era that works - oops, it got out.


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## slowride

bulldog1935 said:


> I keep covering my mouth because SunTour is the only RD from the era that works - oops, it got out.



I saw some Suntour RDs of the 70s and a FD that was all aluminum except steel cage but did not buy as not familiar; which ones are the best of that era?


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## slowride

Roger right-e-o again! Here is the other part of the lower stack still attached to the ST frame (more to come including OA adventures) . Beginning to feel the odds are Stacked against me!


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## juvela

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If my machine would definitely replace at least lower stack.

Upper stack serves mainly as a guide and does not receive same level of abuse as lower.

You of course have same difficulty with ST as with RRA in that steerer likely too short to go up in quality with something period correct.  

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## slowride

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> If my machine would definitely replace at least lower stack.
> 
> Upper stack serves mainly as a guide and does not receive same level of abuse as lower.
> 
> You of course have same difficulty with ST as with RRA in that steerer likely too short to go up in quality with something period correct.
> 
> -----



Yes , I agree need to replace lower stack Brampton on ST.  What I am thinking is since lower stack races are of course not threaded maybe I can use races from a Grand Prix , Super Course or actually any raleigh 1” headset? (I read GP, SC, and Nottingham bike headsets are 27mm fork crown race and frame cup o.d. Is 30.0mm and threaded portions 26tpi. ISO frame cup o.d. Is 30.2mm threaded portions 24tpi. Regarding frame cups, does this 0.2mm difference matter you think?


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## bulldog1935

slowride said:


> I saw some Suntour RDs of the 70s and a FD that was all aluminum except steel cage but did not buy as not familiar; which ones are the best of that era?



Cyclone was introduced in '75 and has the greatest fan club - you actually found many of these replacing Campy in the late '70s -
- they were the badge of a smart bike owner.  Superbe was a beefier version introduced as the top-line SunTour in '77. 




SunTour V was introduced in 1970
Suntour V-Luxe was introduced in 1973
Motobecane was the first European maker to embrace them - from 1971 used on every bike in their line that wasn't equipped with either Campy or Jubilee.
The SunTour Vx in 1977 was adopted on every Raleigh that wasn't equipped with Campy.



Shimano switched from Campy copy to SunTour copy in 1983 (the year before SunTour patent expired).
Every RD after indexing requires long-cable-pull shifters (indexing is all in the shifters, but you have to match cable pull) - every RD above is happy with short-pull shifters, and they're all interchangeable.
SRAM began in 1987 with their SunTour copy
Every RD Campy has made since 1988 is a SunTour copy.



Today Microshift builds a very nice SunTour copy and brands their RD for Sun XCD.
Every RD made today is a SunTour copy.
Lou and Tad have putzed around in period Simplex and Huret vowing to keep their bikes catalog correct, period Shimano, period Campy, thrown up their hands and switched to SunTour.
As far as bike-boom FDs, I'm running Shimano 600, SunTour Cyclone and Campy, and like them all - the main thing is getting top/bottom pull correct for your cable route.
Lou had fits with a high-grade Simplex FD.


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## juvela

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The Raleigh HS employed on SC and below is of a U-race design.

Races are not rectified.

U-race design has less forgiveness for any slight misalignment than cup and cone designs.

One set which would be period correct, plausible, quality with rectified races and which would fit is the Stronglight P3.  It has a stack height of 34.0mm.  Since both the RRA and ST have Stronglight chainsets a Stronglight headset would make a plausible companion.

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## slowride

Regarding headset for Raleigh RRA as a temp solution to get on road , I went ahead and purchased Tange Levin CDS chrome with 33.3mm stack 26.4 crown race 30.2mm frame cup O.D. so I guess I’ll need 2mm of washers... it’s mid level not period but at least will be fully functional. This will allow me to take my time to find these stonglight p3 or Brampton headsets.  I think I’m going to go to Memory Lane bike meet in Grand Rapids,Ohio and classic bike meet in Ann Arbor later this month and have a look.


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## slowride

bulldog1935 said:


> Cyclone was introduced in '75 and has the greatest fan club - you actually found many of these replacing Campy in the late '70s -
> - they were the badge of a smart bike owner.
> View attachment 974273
> SunTour V was introduced in 1970
> Suntour V-Luxe was introduced in 1973
> Motobecane was the first European maker to embrace them - from 1971 used on every bike in their line that wasn't equipped with either Campy or Jubilee.
> The SunTour Vx in 1977 was adopted on every Raleigh that wasn't equipped with Campy.
> View attachment 974274
> Shimano switched from Campy copy to SunTour copy in 1983 (the year before SunTour patent expired).
> Every RD after indexing requires long-cable-pull shifters - every RD above is happy with short-pull shifters, and they're all interchangeable.
> SRAM began in 1987 with their SunTour copy
> Every RD Campy has made since 1988 is a SunTour copy.
> View attachment 974275
> Today Microshift builds a very nice SunTour copy and brands their RD for Sun XCD.
> Every RD made today is a SunTour copy.
> Lou and Tad have putzed around in period Simplex and Huret vowing to keep their bikes catalog correct, period Shimano, period Campy, thrown up their hands and switched to SunTour.




Thank you for all the Suntour RD history!  I see there was cyclone short cage and cyclone long cage ..and also cyclone gt? What is gt? How about front derailleur, anything interesting there?
I read Suntour demise partly dur to their strategy of pricing products at cost +  rather than pricing at what market would bear  (like Shimano )resulting in lower overall financial wherewithal to weather strong yen period in early eighties and starving their ability to reinvest in r&d (like Shimano did with index shifting derailleurs).


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## bulldog1935

Short cage/long cage is completely about chain wrap requirement - how much extra chain length do you need your RD cage to carry - you only need long cage (GT) with triple crank and/or very big rear cogs (above 28t).
Campy only made one long-cage RD, the Rally (before 1988 when they added a long-cage Chorus), and Shimano 600 long-cage was a copy of the Campy Rally.  (Tad replaced one of these with a VGT).

e.g, on two of my bikes I'm running TA cyclotouriste half-step + granny triples with 26T granny rings - only need these things for very long, steep climbs (there are some long 18-degree climbs in the TX hill country) - and they're also great to leave the pavement on single-track.

SunTour disappeared because their indexing was terrible, and Shimano indexing from '85 will accept brand new Shimano 10-speed RDs today.  Indexing is never needed with 8 and fewer rear cogs.
SunTour freewheels are also still the best, and there are many people who rebuild them for you.  It's also been argued that before indexing, SunTour would have done better by pricing their derailleurs higher, to match their quality and create a prestige image - their old parts have it today.  I have a NOS SunTour Blue Line from c. 1980 stashed away, and it's really quite a handsome RD.  

I'm fond of Shimano FD because they designed lift into their cages (still do), but still love both my Campy and SunTour FDs - they work great.


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