# A lot of cool bikes



## Schwinny (Mar 23, 2022)

Now that I've forgotten....
The copper bike in the first pic was the most interesting. Actually plated copper. I thought I committed it to memory but I can't remember the name. English.... damn
These are from Des Moines Iowa and except for the Stingray and the tweed, all are for sale pretty cheap.  Many original. Many not. Taking offers on all of them. If you are interested in any you can contact him directly. Many of these bikes are worth double the asking price in parts.









						Bicycles for Sale
					

Bicycles for Sale Check out the bicycles that are currently for sale including several from the classic bicycle museum collection. Shipping with insurance and boxing is an additional $250 within co…




					www.trailsiderentals-madrid.com
				




The MacLean for instance is extremely nice but a podge of esoteric parts from its era. He says it came with Schwinn phone dial hubs and he kept the stem on it. Looks like a 40's frame and fork. Original Clip stem fork. Cyclo offy derailleur etc..


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## PfishB (Mar 23, 2022)

Wow.  Love it, especially the MacLean.  Might be a hodgepodge but it's a very pretty one.


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## bulldog1935 (Mar 24, 2022)

I have to vote for the blue Hetchins.  He also has many nice Brooks saddles, including the Swallow Select on the red Hetchins.

Copper-plate may be pretty, but not a good idea - there's enough galvanic difference there, with weathering, the copper will sacrifice the steel.

The Raleigh Pro with Brooks Pro is another nice bike.


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## PfishB (Mar 24, 2022)

Ah, the copper bike is a Willier.  I thought that at first but discounted when you thought it was English.  They've posted it now to that effect.  With Cambio Corsa to boot, very nice!


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## HBSyncro (Mar 24, 2022)

Amazing collection and a lot of 56s.  The Merckx 7-11


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## Schwinny (Mar 24, 2022)

Right !
Willier.
Was ASKING 3500 on it. copper is not bare or corroded badly anywhere. I cant see the benefit either but it makes for an interesting frame. I didn't take it down.
I will also mention that MOST of the bikes are at the 1500 level, only a few higher and ALL are open to offers. On many of these bikes, the parts on them are worth double the price of the bike. The MacLean is one. That is an NOS Cyclo system on there and a Schwinn track stem to boot. Hubs are Hi-end. 40's Frame was pro sprayed and re-decalled and looks fantastic.


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## Freqman1 (Mar 24, 2022)

I couldn't help myself the more I looked at the Hetchins Vade Mecum. I spoke to Dave last night (very pleasant gentlemen) and the bike is coming to Georgia. V/r Shawn


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## PfishB (Mar 24, 2022)

I actually just recently acquired a Hetchins, so while normally those would have been the first I'd have zoomed in on, the MacLean became the next target of lust. Hens' teeth stateside it seems, more so than Hetchins.  But that said, the Hetch pretty much wiped out my bike funds until I sell a few to compensate -  so while my eyes say "Yes! Yes!" my wallet sneers "Yeah, shut up".


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## Hoagie57 (Mar 25, 2022)

Schwinny said:


> Now that I've forgotten....
> The copper bike in the first pic was the most interesting. Actually plated copper. I thought I committed it to memory but I can't remember the name. English.... damn
> These are from Des Moines Iowa and except for the Stingray and the tweed, all are for sale pretty cheap.  Many original. Many not. Taking offers on all of them. If you are interested in any you can contact him directly. Many of these bikes are worth double the asking price in parts.
> 
> ...



@coasterbrakejunkie1969


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## Jesper (Mar 25, 2022)

Those early Italian copper frames were called  "ramata" style frames due to the color. WILIER Trestina still makes "copper" frames, but by color only, and not actually copper plated.
I would take any Hetchins frame; beautiful pieces of design and function!
@bulldog1935 : "Copper-plate may be pretty, but not a good idea - there's enough galvanic difference there, with weathering, the copper will sacrifice the steel." I always thought of doing that on a frame, but just because of what you stated I did not feel it to be wise in the end. Maybe brass plated; red brass would be better than straight copper, or yellow brass as the safer bet. I'm too cheap for gold even if I had the cash; I wouldn't want to ride it!


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## bulldog1935 (Mar 26, 2022)

@Jesper that's not the way electroplating works - you can't plate-out brass, nickel silver, etc. which are alloys of several elements with extreme differences in electropotential.
If you dissolve brass or bronze into chemical solution, only the copper plates out.  When this occurs naturally, it's called dealloying corrosion - the zinc and tin salt out as white salts, nickel as green salts.


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## dnc1 (Mar 26, 2022)

The 'Maclean' is nice but I guess you're paying way over the odds for the rarity value over there.
Nowhere near so rare here and consequently much, much cheaper.
It would have to be the 'Wilier' for me, despite the misgivings over the copper plating, and my gear-changing capabilities,  lol. 
Super rare everywhere, hence that price tag.


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## dnc1 (Mar 26, 2022)

Is it definitely copper plated?
Not just faded 'chromovelato ramato', I thought they were already using copper coloured clear lacquer over polished chrome plated frames when the firm relaunched in 1946.
On Wiliers own history site there is a similar 1946, Cambio Corsa equipped bicycle that is described as a faded example of their original paint colour. It looks very similar to this example in tone.
The other possibility that I'm thinking of could just be a plated frame that never made it as far as the chromium plating bath; usual plating process for these would be Copper, then Nickel,  then finally Chromium. 
If it is genuinely copper plated though, how recently was it done?
No 'verdigris' anywhere?


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## Freqman1 (Mar 26, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> Is it definitely copper plated?
> Not just faded 'chromovelato ramato', I thought they were already using copper coloured clear lacquer over polished chrome plated frames when the firm relaunched in 1946.
> On Wiliers own history site there is a similar 1946, Cambio Corsa equipped bicycle that is described as a faded example of their original paint colour. It looks very similar to this example in tone.
> The other possibility that I'm thinking of could just be a plated frame that never made it as far as the chromium plating bath; usual plating process for these would be Copper, then Nickel,  then finally Chromium.
> ...



The owner told me it was full copper plate. I'm assuming it was done a long time ago but don't know if the plating is contemporary to the bike. V/r Shawn


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## Schwinny (Mar 26, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> The owner told me it was full copper plate. I'm assuming it was done a long time ago but don't know if the plating is contemporary to the bike. V/r Shawn



As I finish the 100 things I have to do this week, that bike starts to come back to me...
I think it went to the back of my head because Ive been on alert and thinking of another one he had and how I will get it.
Sorry, no pictures of that one till its in my garage....

The Villiers was definitely real copper plate. I of course don't know which state it was in, pre chrome or final, but it is definitely real copper and not paint of any kind. You can see places on it where someone has wiped it with 0000 wool in the past. The copper was mottled like an old penny on most of the bike. Kinda like age spots (liver spots) And he was quick to point out that it wasn't worn down appreciably anywhere.
And YES, that's why it was interesting. I got to see the Cambio Corsa up close.

Don't think I'd like it even if my right arm worked, but there isn't anything weirder and cooler that Ive seen yet on a bike.


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## dnc1 (Mar 26, 2022)

Schwinny said:


> As I finish the 100 things I have to do this week, that bike starts to come back to me...
> I think it went to the back of my head because Ive been on alert and thinking of another one he had and how I will get it.
> Sorry, no pictures of that one till its in my garage....
> 
> ...



It sounds amazing,  and I would love to see it up close.
Thanks for the insight into the ageing of the copper, its probably genuine.
And as you've probably already read in the 'Cambio Corsa Thread', there really is nothing weirder (definitely) or cooler (possibly) in the world of gear changing.


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## Schwinny (Mar 26, 2022)

Just remembered he sent me a Dropbox link so I may have a lot of pics of that Vilier. I'm on my phone now and no time till tonight but I'll look.


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## Jesper (Mar 27, 2022)

bulldog1935 said:


> @Jesper that's not the way electroplating works - you can't plate-out brass, nickel silver, etc. which are alloys of several elements with extreme differences in electropotential.
> If you dissolve brass or bronze into chemical solution, only the copper plates out.  When this occurs naturally, it's called dealloying corrosion - the zinc and tin salt out as white salts, nickel as green salts.
> View attachment 1595172 View attachment 1595171



My brain must be numb! Yes, it would be like distilling alcohol out of water; except dealing with elemental ion transfer ending up with a copper (or zinc?) plated surface.  Is brass plate done via a hot dip into molten brass? I know it's done somehow; but as you state it wouldn't be feasible as an electroplate (unless there is some buffering method that could be employed in the electrolyte?). Just lack of sleep I guess. Well, I knew copper wasn't a great material for a frame regardless (though our 60 year old Revere Ware pan copperplate still looks pretty good consideringthe abuse it has taken). I come from more of a mechanical engineering background with some electrical sprinkled in. My sis is a chemical engineer and may be able to provide some more insight. Thanks for the "wake-up" call!


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## bulldog1935 (Mar 27, 2022)

You simply can't plate zinc if copper is in the same room.  Most of the galvanizing we're used to, especially galvalume alloy, is hot-dip, not plated. 
Copper is easy to plate, and can be plated electroless - it automatically plates on steel from a slightly acidified copper sulfate solution.


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## Jesper (Mar 27, 2022)

Here's one of those copper plated "ramata" bikes from the 50s. I need to research the photo; it's not mine, but was on sale and I saved this image. It's not a WILIER Trestina though; think it was selling around $2000 (and too high for me!). The newer WILIERS are are cromovelato "copper" finish.





Edit: photo credit for bike is on B&G Legendary Bikes for €2200. Italian(?) brand of "Radius". The above photo doesn't do it justice. As a note, I had purchased (but not at their listed prices) a couple frames from them about 4 or 5 years ago; they wouldn't help retrieve the "cambio corsa" bike even when paid substantial cash to do so (they wanted €1000 to help; I got it retrieved and being shipped for €230 total after offering B&G much more than that).


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## Schwinny (Mar 27, 2022)

Now Drop box wants a note from my mother to access the pictures, so screw them.
If you want a lot of detailed pics of any of the bikes, contact him and he will send you a drop box link or whatever.
Drop box is old tech and has little use for me anymore. Im not giving them all my information too. Just know that if you do, their business model is to suck all of your info and pics and sell them.
You will meet exotic people, over the phone, by text and email. 
So there is that......


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## razinhellcustomz (Apr 5, 2022)

Jesper said:


> My brain must be numb! Yes, it would be like distilling alcohol out of water; except dealing with elemental ion transfer ending up with a copper (or zinc?) plated surface.  Is brass plate done via a hot dip into molten brass? I know it's done somehow; but as you state it wouldn't be feasible as an electroplate (unless there is some buffering method that could be employed in the electrolyte?). Just lack of sleep I guess. Well, I knew copper wasn't a great material for a frame regardless (though our 60 year old Revere Ware pan copperplate still looks pretty good consideringthe abuse it has taken). I come from more of a mechanical engineering background with some electrical sprinkled in. My sis is a chemical engineer and may be able to provide some more insight. Thanks for the "wake-up" call!



Having worked in a chromate plating plant, copper plating is a hot dip process containing electro chemical process involving copper plating coils or rods that chemically bonds to the metal surface.. Hope this helps...


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