# I'm Stuck - Requesting help on Elgin/Musselman rear Hub



## Buster1 (Dec 7, 2012)

So I received my replacement part (the grooved race) as the old one was totally shot.

Unless I have this wrong, I cannot get the bearing past that first ridge on the left.  I assume the bearings roll in the wide deeper smooth groove just over or to the right the first ridge on the left.  Does that make any sense?  Anyone know if I have this right or wrong, and if there is a way to get the bearing cup pushed over the ridge?

Help!


----------



## dougfisk (Dec 7, 2012)

push harder, :eek:  on the retainer avoiding the balls


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 7, 2012)

So force it over, then add the bearings?


----------



## dougfisk (Dec 7, 2012)

Buster1 said:


> So force it over, then add the bearings?



 Force it over with the balls *in it* ...as they roll over the lip they will open the retainer just enough to fit over.


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 7, 2012)

Are you sure?  Seems really _really_ tight.

I'm trusting you guys!


----------



## dougfisk (Dec 7, 2012)

Buster1 said:


> Are you sure?  Seems really _really_ tight.
> 
> I'm trusting you guys!




Always works for me... but wait for someone else to confirm.


----------



## cyclingday (Dec 7, 2012)

Yep,
You've got it right.
The flat side of the retainer facing out with the balls in the retainer and push just like you're having a kid. It will snap into place.
I think the bearing should be a Hartford, so make sure you have the right bearing. That could be the problem.


----------



## MaxGlide (Dec 7, 2012)

Definitely put bearings in, grease well (on bearing race too), balls in and push until it snaps into place. I've done a bunch of those.


----------



## HIGGINSFOREVER (Dec 7, 2012)

It looks to me like the bearing race is backward,Put the bearings in and try putting the large side on.If you force the small side on dont it look like the bearings will fall out.


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Gene,

The retainer is not backward.  If I flip it around to wide end first it doesn't seat in the hub race at all.  Gotta go narrow end 1st.


----------



## HIGGINSFOREVER (Dec 8, 2012)

Buster1 said:


> Gene,
> 
> The retainer is not backward.  If I flip it around to wide end first it doesn't seat in the hub race at all.  Gotta go narrow end 1st.




By chance are you using the retainer from the sprocket side that is smaller then the retainer for the brake side.


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Gene, that's a good call.  I checked it to be sure.  I don't think that's the case here as both my sprocket side retainers and bearings _haven't_ been removed from there original positions since disassembly.  They are both seemingly 'permanent' in their positions due to ridges and such keeping them in place.  I didn't know how to get them off.  

I don't know how they do it but the smaller outer retainer seems to be impossible to remove without damaging something.


----------



## HIGGINSFOREVER (Dec 8, 2012)

Buster1 said:


> Gene, that's a good call.  I checked it to be sure.  I don't think that's the case here as both my sprocket side retainers and bearings _haven't_ been removed from there original positions since disassembly.  They are both seemingly 'permanent' in their positions due to ridges and such keeping them in place.  I didn't know how to get them off.
> 
> I don't know how they do it but the smaller outer retainer seems to be impossible to remove without damaging something.




My musselman book is kind of blurry so thats the best i can come up with.Good luck


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Okay, so I got the bearing retainer (with bearings) over the lip.  (Upper photo, on the right).  Had to whack it with a rubber mallet to get it in there.

Now I am assembling my hub looking at my disassembly photos and the same darn retainer won't nestle right into the hub race.  What is going on here?  I feel like a rookie.

Does it need to 'snap' into the hub race housing too?


----------



## dougfisk (Dec 8, 2012)

ASSUMING you have the right parts...  roll the retainer assembly a little forward on the cone while sliding the assembly into the hub,  sometimes the bearings roll back on the cone/race and expand enough such that they wont fit into the hub... don't you just love the learning process?


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 8, 2012)

man, I'll try that.  You guys are saving my bacon on this hub.  Never had so much trouble.


----------



## dougfisk (Dec 8, 2012)

Your gonna love it when you get it together.  I'll trade you my new departures for your Musselmans all day long.


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Update:

Okay, I am still unable to get the bearing/retainer in.  Talking heavy forcing here too.  I removed it from the previously mentioned race and tried fitting it JUST BY ITSELF into the hub shell/cone.  It would barely fit!

So I have a theory as too why my last race was so damaged and destroyed...I think the retainer is the wrong one, too big!




So now, not being able to get the retainer even squeezed into the hub, that seems to indicate to me that it is too big.  The bearings were too compressed from the hub and caused the wear seen above as they compressed on that race.  I'v also noted that the retainer in question seems too wobbly and big how it sits now on the new race.

Anyone have any pics or measurements of the correct retainer for an Air Cooled Elgin hub?


----------



## dougfisk (Dec 8, 2012)

I'm going to go out and take one apart and tell you what I can find out.


----------



## dougfisk (Dec 8, 2012)

1.  My retainers are unmarked, but they hold nine 1/4 inch balls.
2.  They are the same at each end of the hub.
3.  They are the "other" style, open on the outer perimeter, closed on the inner. 
4.  Are you trying to reuse the balls that were rolling on that other cone?  :eek:  I hope not.    
5.  You don't really need a retainer.  Get some 1/4in balls at your LBS or hardware store. Paste them onto your "cone" or shell with grease and assemble that way.  With no retainer it will probably hold up to 12 or 13 balls.

Warm up on your New Departure and switch to this one and you'll think you are Lance Armstrong.! :eek:


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Doug, you're a lifesaver.

Two of my retainers are the "finger" kind (see pics above, with the sprocket).  The one in question is a solid ring with circular holes in it (reminds me of a UFO) ...BL they are different.
The one in question holds 10 bearings
The retainer on the sprocket has 10, the small one has 8 (see pics above).
Why not use the old bearings and retainer, they look fine.

I will see about trying w/o the retainer and getting some new bearings.


----------



## dougfisk (Dec 8, 2012)

Buster1 said:


> Doug, you're a lifesaver.
> 
> Two of my retainers are the "finger" kind (see pics above, with the sprocket).  The one in question is a solid ring with circular holes in it (reminds me of a UFO) ...BL they are different.
> The one in question holds 10 bearings
> ...




Interesting, non of your retainers are the same as mine.  But I'll bet that 1/4 in balls is constant throughout..  I guess I didn't understand how the bearings could look fine given the look of that race and the noises you were hearing.   Are they 1/4 in?   If they are undamaged, of course you can use them.  But you'll want more with no retainer.  Use as many as will fit, leaving a space less than 1 more.  I like to replace all at once because of possible production tolerance variations.


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 14, 2012)

Update:

So I was able to find a retainer and bearing set that is very slightly smaller than the one in question.  Well, it fit right in the race and the bearings were rolling in the groove.  It also fit perfectly in the hub cone!  Yes!

It now rolls as good as ever and makes no noise!  I think that was it!

Thanks everyone for helping work me through this!

My only remaining question is that the braking action is a little "soft."  Did I over-grease some internal part?

Nate / Buster


----------



## dougfisk (Dec 14, 2012)

Buster1 said:


> Update:
> 
> My only remaining question is that the braking action is a little "soft."  Did I over-grease some internal part?
> 
> Nate / Buster




I do not believe that Musselman specifies any special lube procedure as does ND.  I suggest you ride it for a while.  I have seen some brakes improve with use.  If that does not work we can discuss other alternatives.


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks.  The whole thing was lubed when I disassembled it.  Every square inch. I cleaned it all up and applied fresh bike bearing grease everywhere. Seems to be that the "brake pad" in there needs to be greased for friction and metal grinding protection, yet that grease also hinders stopping capability too.


----------



## Buster1 (Dec 15, 2012)

3 miles today on her, up and down some small hills. The braking action seems to be improved a little.


----------



## Imsohawthorney (Apr 15, 2017)

as doug said ................. on that note , i just rebuilt a model m ,  and with no retainer it seems 13 balls is max and good . ron...........also a common mistake is to re assemble the hub backwards . i have done it with lots of confusion because it wont go together!   make sure the cog is on the (short) side of the hub, not the side of the hub with the extended side. allways examine pictures closley


----------



## Imsohawthorney (Apr 15, 2017)

And here is my model m that I just rebuilt


----------

