# Yet another mystery bike



## zolaman (Nov 23, 2020)

I purchased this as a bare frame, stripped, in the early 80s. It was sold to me as a Peugeot PX10, year unknown. I've always naively assumed that to be true. I've since had it painted twice, neither with the aim of restoring but rather just to protect / spruce up the bike. It was built up as a tourer with TA triple, bar ends, racks, etc. Now I'm having it repainted (gloss black, with chromed feet) and wanting to determine if it's really a PX10. At first pics I saw online led me to think it was a 77. But others, having seen these photos, say "no way" - given the cable guides at the BB & chain stay and the Campy style droputs.  The fellow who is repainting it said the welds are better than most French bikes he's seen (alot) and thought maybe it could be a Miyata or Panasonic.  He's uncovered a very readable serial number on the bottom bracket:  2402737.  That likely only eliminates choices more than it helps ID it.  Scratching my head. 

Would love any and all insights.  New here so I hope the pictures make it with the post.


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## all riders (Nov 24, 2020)

Well, I would start with determining the bottom bracket threading--can't be Japanese if it's French threaded. If the fixed cup(drive side) is right-hand thread, it's french. I don't think Peugeot ever used Swiss threading like Motobecane did (Swiss is the same thread as French, only the fixed cup is left-hand thread). If your frame is a PX or any of the P variant, I would think it earlier than 78 unless it has a fully chromed fork under the paint.  LUGS. I agree that the lugs have a certain Japanese quality to them(simple, smooth) however, in certain years, the px bikes were built with simple Nervex lugs and other P models used Bocama lugs and I am not the guy to identify them positively. I think the fork crown might be the thing someone will ID.  DROPOUTS: given the age of the frame, I feel pretty certain that the rear drops would read Simplex if it's higher-end Peugeot.  Ultimately, threading will tell the story of origin and you can go from there. BTW 7 number serial without letter prefix is right for Peugeots of the general time frame -mid-late 70s


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## PfishB (Nov 24, 2020)

+1 on the above, plus the steerer would be 25 mm with 22 mm ID and also be flat on the back vs. slot-keyed if French.   The tops of the fork crown do look like those from the PX models but that may not have been exclusive to Peugeot.


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## slowride (Nov 24, 2020)

The last very important point is thread pitch. French bikes are metric. Japanese BSC.


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## juvela (Nov 27, 2020)

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hello zolaman and thank you for posting this query -

frame bits -

lug pattern is NERVEX DuBois Professional
this pattern offered short point as here and also as long point
offered with reinforcing lip as here and also without
offered without cutouts as here and also with cutouts

here is an advert illustrating the long point version:





this image shows the head of a Peugeot cycle constructed with them:





the frameset's fork crown is a NERVEX item; here it is as a loose piece:





the frameset's present chainstay stop is the Campag Nr. 621 which has replaced the stamped sheet original which incorporated a housing guide

the present rear gear cable guide is the Campag Nr. 663

the present front gear cable guide is the Campag 626/b





the braze-on Campag bottom bracket cable guides replaced Simplex clamp-on guide/stop Ref. 2113:





the frameset's bottom bracket shell is NERVEX Professional with nozzle cut Nr. 162

dropouts are Simplex pattern Ref. 1752 & 1753





their original appearance on the cycle would have been like this:




[gear hanger in photo has been altered to create a stop]

the "spur" on the left dropout has been removed as has the gear hanger on the right dropout

the gear hanger has been replaced with Campag part nr. 80/1









missing are the original Simplex dropout adjusters:





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appears cycle began life as a 1972 model Peugeot PX-10E

when you received the frame was the hardwood plug yet present in the bottom of the steerer?

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## zolaman (Nov 27, 2020)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> hello zolaman and thank you for posting this query -
> 
> ...



​juvela,
Wow, that is an extremely detailed response - thank you so much!  Can't wait to contact the painter (who has the frame and in the process of stripping it now) and ask if he can read Simplex on the rear drop outs.  

Nice to know it "started life" as a PX-10E but am I understanding you correctly that you think quite a few of the features were after-market changes made to the frame?  While fascinating, and this has been suggested previously, wouldn't it have been an expensive change to make to the bike vs just seeking out a 531 frame made with the same features?  Perhaps the person just really liked the ride...  At any rate, kind of makes this frame something of a Frankenstein.

If it's really a legit PX-10 at its core, then I'm tempted to dress it in decals as such.  If I were ever to resell it I would be upfront about the vagaries of its ancestry.  I do have the option to make changes to the frame while its getting repainted.  I am having the "socks" - front and rear - re-chrome-plated.  I would not change the drop outs, but my painter also has the skill to make other braze-on changes, such as downtube shift bosses, top-tube cable guides, etc.  I'm tempted to do that, even though it wouldn't be original spec (but then this bike isn't THAT anyway).  Do you have any suggestions wrt those modifications?  I will be building this bike to ride, not as restoration art (though I do appreciate those magnificently restored bikes!)

Thanks!
z


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## zolaman (Nov 27, 2020)

zolaman said:


> ​juvela,
> Wow, that is an extremely detailed response - thank you so much!  Can't wait to contact the painter (who has the frame and in the process of stripping it now) and ask if he can read Simplex on the rear drop outs.
> 
> Nice to know it "started life" as a PX-10E but am I understanding you correctly that you think quite a few of the features were after-market changes made to the frame?  While fascinating, and this has been suggested previously, wouldn't it have been an expensive change to make to the bike vs just seeking out a 531 frame made with the same features?  Perhaps the person just really liked the ride...  At any rate, kind of makes this frame something of a Frankenstein.
> ...



Oh forgot to say - don’t recall the wood plug in the steerer. For all I know it’s still there if it could have survived multiple paint jobs & builds.


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## all riders (Nov 28, 2020)

I think that 1972 might be off the mark. Peugeot bikes of that year typically had the serial# stamped on a plate that was riveted to the bottom bracket. It is possible that this was not practiced on the finer models--I don't know. I think it was around '74 that they went back to stamping the BB directly--and somewhere '78-9 ish they added the letter prefix.  I think your machine is more likely from 74-76. I will defer to Juvela who is more knowledgeable on these matters.


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## juvela (Nov 28, 2020)

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Bonjour Encore Une Fois Monsieur Emile,

alterations -

at this time the PX-10 model was often a default purchase for young enthusiasts who really wanted a machine which was "all Campag" but could not afford it.

in 1970, for example, a new PX was 165USD while the lowest price bikes which were all Campag NR equipped save for brakes were 250USD.

an example of the latter was the Monark/Crescent model 320; while pretigious British and Italian marques were of course significantly higher.

this price differential may sound a small difference to the modern eye/ear but keep in mind that minimum wage in the U.S. at this time was $1.60/hr so that a new PX represented >100hrs, or two and one half weeks of full time, _gross_ income earnings for a young worker at an unskilled employment.

no sooner than the cycle was purchased than the new owner began saving for upgrades.  usually the first item to be acquired was a Campag R/NR front mech to get rid of the dreaded Delrin pushrod gizmo.  and on it would go as they progressed in their campaign of "Campification"...

those who stayed with the process would often make modifications to the frame as well.

hence today it is fairly rare to encounter PX's from this era which are completely OEM.

this forum thread covers one such piece dating from 1971 and gives many detail images -









						1971 Peugeot PX-10 Time Capsule - Bike Forums
					

Classic & Vintage - 1971 Peugeot PX-10 Time Capsule - I bought this 1971 PX-10 a few days ago and it appears to be completely original and very low mileage. The tires are possibly original, as the rims show very little wear on the braking surfaces, but any maker's name has long since...



					www.bikeforums.net
				




dropouts -

when the paint is removed you will likely be able to see where the recess bearing the Simplex name has been filled in with brass in order to camouflage the dropouts' Simplexness.

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no-slide -

this piece cannot be seen in the images provided.
if it has not been removed the frame should exhibit a no-slide pibb on the underside of the downtube in the shape of a bar/wire transverse to the axis of the tube.  this item is ~3mm in diameter and ~13mm long.  should you elect to add shift lever bosses as mentioned you might as well remove it, if it yet be present.

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dating -

apologies if am off

1972 was the first year for this lug pattern and the first year for this model of fork crown.

had originally thought that 1971 was the final year for the scrolly NERVEX Professional lug pattern but learned through investigation subsequent to my earlier post that they reverted to it for the 1973 model year, at least on some examples.

also regarding chronological contradictions: we need to keep in mind that "the boom" was on and parts shortages and backorders were very much the norm in the industry at this time.  so cycles often came through with one or more details which differed from the brochure/catalogue specifications.  printed materials from manufacturers would typically bear a disclaimer in fine print at the bottom of a page or at the end of a catalogue/brochure stating something to the effect of "Specifications Subject To Change Without Notice."

have no quarrel with the dating of others. am definitely not a rampant lion buff or expert.

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since the bike is to be a "rider" as opposed to a collector item see no reason whatsoever not to make any alterations which will better suit it to your usage requirements.    

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resources -

a) _BICYCLING!  _magazine review of the PX-10 for 1973 -

Bicycling! Mar 1973 Road Test Peugeot PX-10 Full Article.pdf

b) history of the PX-10 (and related models) through the years -





__





						PX-10_History
					





					www.classicrendezvous.com
				





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## Two Wheeler (Dec 7, 2020)

zolaman said:


> I purchased this as a bare frame, stripped, in the early 80s. It was sold to me as a Peugeot PX10, year unknown. I've always naively assumed that to be true. I've since had it painted twice, neither with the aim of restoring but rather just to protect / spruce up the bike. It was built up as a tourer with TA triple, bar ends, racks, etc. Now I'm having it repainted (gloss black, with chromed feet) and wanting to determine if it's really a PX10. At first pics I saw online led me to think it was a 77. But others, having seen these photos, say "no way" - given the cable guides at the BB & chain stay and the Campy style droputs.  The fellow who is repainting it said the welds are better than most French bikes he's seen (alot) and thought maybe it could be a Miyata or Panasonic.  He's uncovered a very readable serial number on the bottom bracket:  2402737.  That likely only eliminates choices more than it helps ID it.  Scratching my head.
> 
> Would love any and all insights.  New here so I hope the pictures make it with the post.
> 
> ...





zolaman said:


> I purchased this as a bare frame, stripped, in the early 80s. It was sold to me as a Peugeot PX10, year unknown. I've always naively assumed that to be true. I've since had it painted twice, neither with the aim of restoring but rather just to protect / spruce up the bike. It was built up as a tourer with TA triple, bar ends, racks, etc. Now I'm having it repainted (gloss black, with chromed feet) and wanting to determine if it's really a PX10. At first pics I saw online led me to think it was a 77. But others, having seen these photos, say "no way" - given the cable guides at the BB & chain stay and the Campy style droputs.  The fellow who is repainting it said the welds are better than most French bikes he's seen (alot) and thought maybe it could be a Miyata or Panasonic.  He's uncovered a very readable serial number on the bottom bracket:  2402737.  That likely only eliminates choices more than it helps ID it.  Scratching my head.
> 
> Would love any and all insights.  New here so I hope the pictures make it with the post.
> 
> ...





zolaman said:


> I purchased this as a bare frame, stripped, in the early 80s. It was sold to me as a Peugeot PX10, year unknown. I've always naively assumed that to be true. I've since had it painted twice, neither with the aim of restoring but rather just to protect / spruce up the bike. It was built up as a tourer with TA triple, bar ends, racks, etc. Now I'm having it repainted (gloss black, with chromed feet) and wanting to determine if it's really a PX10. At first pics I saw online led me to think it was a 77. But others, having seen these photos, say "no way" - given the cable guides at the BB & chain stay and the Campy style droputs.  The fellow who is repainting it said the welds are better than most French bikes he's seen (alot) and thought maybe it could be a Miyata or Panasonic.  He's uncovered a very readable serial number on the bottom bracket:  2402737.  That likely only eliminates choices more than it helps ID it.  Scratching my head.
> 
> Would love any and all insights.  New here so I hope the pictures make it with the post.
> 
> ...



Here are some photos of my 83 or 84 Miyata for comparison.


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## juvela (Dec 7, 2020)

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dating note -

mentioned lug pattern and crown pattern earlier in this regard

one clue which brackets things to the 1972 year specifically is the Simplex ref. 1752/1753 dropouts

here is an image of the PX-10 for the 1973 model year followed by a closeup of its Simplex ref. 1752/1753 dropouts (the manufacturer had gone back to the scrolly NERVEX Professional lug pattern for one year in 1973) -










note the "blister" or small bulge which can be seen at the rear of the dropout in line with the axle slot.

this was added between the 1972 and 1973 model years.  its presence is in preparation for the threaded dropout adjuster screw which came subsequently.

note that it is absent on our subject frame.

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## many408 (Dec 11, 2020)

all riders said:


> I don't think Peugeot ever used Swiss threading like Motobecane did (Swiss is the same thread as French, only the fixed cup is left-hand thread).




Think again - I have one (Nervar original equipment).

Never trust a french bicycle to be the same as any other french bicycle.


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