# Important Discussion for Newcomers to the Hobby



## Boris (Feb 20, 2018)

I am making no value judgement on Howard's decision to restore his bike. It's a worthy general topic for discussion, but I do wonder if his thread is the best place to have it?
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/4-gill-speed-king.126100/


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## fordmike65 (Feb 20, 2018)

I tried to bite my lip...but I just can't. I'm sure my comments will get deleted.


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## fordmike65 (Feb 20, 2018)

Gonna delete my post, quote it here...then ignore that thread before I blow a gasket. I swear I'm still in shock




fordmike65 said:


> Hell....I woulda picked up a complete project bike & let this one be. I know of one really nice complete bare metal 4-Gill(that wasn't a nice original bike before being stripped) locally that would've been a great trade to keep this one untouched. No words...


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## catfish (Feb 20, 2018)

It's his bike, he can do what he wants.


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## fattyre (Feb 20, 2018)

The thread title should read Important observations for newcomers to the hobby.  The discussion over this will speak for itself.


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## Boris (Feb 20, 2018)

fattyre said:


> The thread title should read Important observations for newcomers to the hobby.  The discussion over this will speak for itself.




I changed it for a while like you suggested, but "Discussion" works better for me. But maybe this isn't the best place to discuss that. Maybe I'll start an "Observation vs. Discussion" thread. Don't get mad at me, I'm just kidding around with ya.


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## saladshooter (Feb 20, 2018)

This is exactly the same as parting a complete original bike in my opinion. I thought this went out of style in the 90s.


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## fordmike65 (Feb 20, 2018)

saladshooter said:


> This is exactly the same as parting a complete original bike in my opinion. I thought this went out of style in the 90s.



x10. A buddy just mentioned that to me today. I completely agree.

How about you blast that Speedster next


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## redline1968 (Feb 20, 2018)

It’s his do what he wants with it.... think about this when You put the seat belt on every day.


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## jimbo53 (Feb 20, 2018)

This hobby is about having fun with old bikes - *PERIOD! *If I want to strip and refinish a bike and that makes me happy, it's mine to do as I wish. If I want to part out a bike and that makes me happy., it is mine to do as I wish. 
I am personally in the camp of appreciating original finishes and complete bikes, but if I decide to strip/refinish or part out a bike, that is my decision and I would resent like hell someone taking me to task because I didn't do it they way they would do it.  If you want to encourage me in my project, feel free. If you want to criticize me, please keep your comments to yourself. I get tired of this the same way I get tired of someone trying to get me to accept a religious or political position because my way is wrong and their way is right. 
There is enough room on this forum for all to co-exist peacefully. Like my mother said, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.


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## deepsouth (Feb 20, 2018)

I'm glad this is being discussed . No one has the right to tell another person what they can do with their own property.  Just because you choose to do certain things with your bikes doesn't mean it's the only or right way. Please respect others rights to do as they please, even if you don't agree with it.  In the immortal words of Rodney King ;
"Why can't we all just get along ".


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## island schwinn (Feb 20, 2018)

I won't post my personal thoughts on this subject,but on a brighter side,if you happen to own one of the very few untouched,original paint models,then your bike just gained value.


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## weebob (Feb 20, 2018)




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## bike (Feb 20, 2018)

It is not a fight- grind your bike to dust if it pleases you- Just saying for newbies it is NOT a good economical decision - people see a restored bike and think that is the way to go but with paint and plating to get a bike that is worth less for resale when you are done with it- but if that is what you want- so be it.


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## saladshooter (Feb 20, 2018)

Of course he can do want he wants. Just like we can have an opinion on the preservation of the bikes we love. Different strokes for different folks. But I for one wouldn't be in this hobby if there weren't any original bikes left.


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## Muleman121 (Feb 20, 2018)

If you don’t like seeing it restored offer a large sum of money for it. Put your money where your mouth, so to speak.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Boris (Feb 20, 2018)

Muleman121 said:


> If you don’t like seeing it restored offer a large sum of money for it. Put your money where your mouth, so to speak.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I don't remember seeing this bike offered up for sale.


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## 3-speeder (Feb 20, 2018)

weebob said:


> View attachment 757864



Silence is golden but duct tape is silver.
By the way.... I like em with a little crust.


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## GTs58 (Feb 20, 2018)

Boris said:


> I don't remember seeing this bike offered up for sale.




It wasn't. Ever offer to buy something that wasn't for sale? Ever ask a married woman out on a date?


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## vincev (Feb 20, 2018)

While an owner has the right to do what he wants with his property once it is posted on a site like the Cabe then you have to accept that others have also the right to share their opinions.One thing is true that this is not a restoration unless every detail down to the paint is duplicated.It is more of a renovation and knocks the stuffing out of any value.I hear the word "restoration" misused by many in the bike and car hobby.


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## vincev (Feb 20, 2018)

This kind of reminds me of something my friend did many years ago.He purchased a pre war Ford that had won many trophies at the area car shows for originality. He took it home and turned it into a street rod.lol He was laughed at at all the car shows from that point on .His defense was that he wanted a nice condition car to start his street rod project on.lol Although not the case here,it just reminded me of  that.


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## weebob (Feb 20, 2018)

the last thing we need is more self appointed  bicycle police


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## Handle Bar Hoarder (Feb 20, 2018)

I believe like many others are saying it's your bike you should be able to do with it as you please but with that being said  i've heard many times in this hobby that we are supposed to be the caretakers of these beautiful antique works of art for the next generation or the next person sometimes I spend more money on these beautiful bicycles then they're worth just so I can have them and protect them  and keep them as original as possible for the next generation all my bikes are really original and that's all I collect I'm a firm believer in not  Parting or restoring original paint bicycles  and being a good caretaker for the next generation with that being said somebody said put your money where your mouth is.. if I would've seen that bike for sale you better believe I would put my money down on that that's a very sought after bike and was in good original condition that's just my opinion about the situation by the way I have 80 original heavyweight tank bicycles in my collection


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## PCHiggin (Feb 20, 2018)

Oh,C’mon guys. Its a bike lol! I dont care how much we spend, they were made for fun and for kids! Not old guys,sorry,lol! Hey, If you wanna put  this in the correct perspective, according to me, LOL,have the wife or significant other snap a pic of you riding your favorite bike. If you’re bigger than the 12 year old it was made for,you probably wont take this too serious again. I dont,our country alone has a zillion “original” or “correct” old bikes in
museums and “collections” collecting dust.


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## Handle Bar Hoarder (Feb 20, 2018)

Well probably can't change any opinions  once your mind is made up just like you're not going to change my opinion I guess that's what makes America great is that we all can be free to say and do what we want but I guess it's like an old coin  if You have a 1909 s. V.d.b  wheat penny some people might say well that's just a  Old penny but I would say that's a very rare coin and it's collectible so I sure wouldn't want to go put it in my pocket change and spend it or put it in some jewelry cleaner and clean it because   That takes away from its value I'm an antique guy so I look at things as having value because they're old and original and rare I believe bicycles are meant to have fun with to but if I was going to restore one I would maybe pick something a little bit more common to play with or not so rare  it is just the way I do with things that's why we live in America


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## cyclingday (Feb 20, 2018)

This type of discussion always leads back to the age old topic of how many examples of a given model exist.
You can say, oh, there's dozens of those around.
But when you start talking original paint/condition, the numbers drop off dramatically.
For all of the Elgin Bluebirds we've seen come to light in the last couple of years, how many of them were complete and in original paint/condition?
Maybe 1 out of 10?
Original condition is a very special thing once the numbers of existing models gets down there.
I have no idea how many original CWC Four Gills are around, but I'm sure the decision to repaint this one wasn't made lightly.
I like to see interesting original finish bikes as well as finely/accurately restored bikes, and it looks like this one will be done well, so I'll be looking forward to seeing the progress on this project.


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## SKPC (Feb 20, 2018)

Original finish is more valuable, and becoming more so as time slides by, whether it is motorcycles, bikes, furniture, cars, and a lot of other collectible stuff.
We as human beings all make judgment errors on occasion, and this may or may not be one of those examples.  If you do a lot of base jumping or skiing in the backcountry, you cannot make judgment errors or you could die.  With an original parts/paint bicycle, you could make the judgment error to "restore" it from original, and you won't be harmed, judgment error or not.  I would still stare admirably at it if totally "restored" as planned, but would stare at it three times longer if it was just cleaned up.


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## Handle Bar Hoarder (Feb 20, 2018)

That's why they say it's only original once can you make something original again no .. if anyone else  has some old original rare bicycles they want to part out or
restore just give me a call I'll give you more than what you paid for them i'll pay for the shipping  and then you'll have some extra money for your next project


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## StoneWoods (Feb 20, 2018)

Oof. Looking at the before and after on the roadmaster just about killed me. It was nice and original, but it’ll be nicer and not original I suppose.


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## Cowboy in NC (Feb 20, 2018)

Patience Grasshoppers... As I see it, the only mistake this fellow made was letting you in on pictures of the original bike. If it turns out like his other restorations in the past- no expense will be spared in making it a correct and flawless restoration. And that`s what HE wants, for his collection. Everyone here has that option, and opinions about such things should be held until you all see the finished product. Park his original bike beside of a perfect restoration and you might change your mind. The decision on this one has already been made- and I honor HIS opinion before any other. I applaud His decision, as He had guts enough to make it.
There are more of these bikes out there- for those who think differently... Find your own...-----God Bless,---Cowboy


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## Handle Bar Hoarder (Feb 20, 2018)

What would you do put it to a vote ask the masses  what they think someone open a poll on here and see how many people  vote for keep it original or restore it but like I said before it's his bike he can do  with it  as  he wants to  I am sure it'll  Will be beautiful when it's done I'm just a purist and a original guy but let's see what the majority says


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## 2jakes (Feb 20, 2018)

I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I happen to favor an original over a restoration.
What this person has done with his bikes is his business.
If he's happy with it....great!
I won't loose sleep over this.


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## Cowboy in NC (Feb 20, 2018)

I think that`s a good idea- but....................WAIT FOR THE FINISHED BIKE....---------Cowboy


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## Boris (Feb 20, 2018)

HANDLE BAR HORDER said:


> What would you do put it to a vote ask the masses  what they think someone open a poll on here and see how many people  vote for keep it original or restore it but like I said before it's his bike he can do  with it  as  he wants to  I am sure it'll  Will be beautiful when it's done I'm just a purist and a original guy but let's see what the majority says




It's a good suggestion. I'd prefer to just leave this thread open to polite discussion. If you or someone else did a poll, I'd certainly put in my vote though.


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## higgens (Feb 20, 2018)

I say chrome everything sand blast the metal throw it in a few boxes in the garage then lose half the parts then in five years sell it to me for a few hondo ...wait that’s how I get all of my bikes


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## deepsouth (Feb 21, 2018)

vincev said:


> This kind of reminds me of something my friend did many years ago.He purchased a pre war Ford that had won many trophies at the area car shows for originality. He took it home and turned it into a street rod.lol He was laughed at at all the car shows from that point on .His defense was that he wanted a nice condition car to start his street rod project on.lol Although not the case here,it just reminded me of  that.



Why do street rods and resto- mods sell for so much if they are ruined?


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## weebob (Feb 21, 2018)

HANDLE BAR HORDER said:


> What would you do put it to a vote ask the masses  what they think someone open a poll on here and see how many people  vote for keep it original or restore it but like I said before it's his bike he can do  with it  as  he wants to  I am sure it'll  Will be beautiful when it's done I'm just a purist and a original guy but let's see what the majority says


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## Handle Bar Hoarder (Feb 21, 2018)

weebob said:


> View attachment 758138



That's pretty good I like that


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## partsguy (Feb 21, 2018)

I love this forum, but threads and discussion like this are why some people think of the CABE as an ass-hole's club. There are people who will not join this forum because of all the judgmental people telling someone what to do with their bike. If you have an issue with it, make a juicy offer to buy it yourself or move on. I hate to see OG paint gone, but the least we could do is be encouraging and offer help to make sure someone's bike is restored correctly, and answer questions.


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## partsguy (Feb 21, 2018)

PCHiggin said:


> Oh,C’mon guys. Its a bike lol! I dont care how much we spend, they were made for fun and for kids! Not old guys,sorry,lol! Hey, If you wanna put  this in the correct perspective, according to me, LOL,have the wife or significant other snap a pic of you riding your favorite bike. If you’re bigger than the 12 year old it was made for,you probably wont take this too serious again. I dont,our country alone has a zillion “original” or “correct” old bikes in
> museums and “collections” collecting dust.




Funny thing is, most bikes in a 26" size were marketed to 12 year olds and young adults back then. Modern bicycles have so many more frame designs and sizes, nobody will look silly riding a Giant in 30 years.


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## bikewhorder (Feb 21, 2018)

Its sad, but in the grand scheme of things I think whats really sad is that this is what we are wasting our time fretting and fussing about while our oceans are dying.  Its just an old bike, the paint is gone, let it go.


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## Handle Bar Hoarder (Feb 21, 2018)

Oh I forgot ride vintage


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## Cowboy in NC (Feb 21, 2018)

Whorder, --If I decide to strip the paint off any of my bikes, I`ll save it and send it to You...LOL---------Cowboy


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## PCHiggin (Feb 21, 2018)

Threads like this should be deleted. HORDER has been cool about the whole thing,so far as Im concerned. Its his stuff,he enjoys restoring ,his work shouldnt be put out here in a "what NOT to do " thread.This is BS,I keep looking back here hoping for something cool,other than what HORDER posts,not going to happen,I guess.


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## deepsouth (Feb 21, 2018)

If restored bikes were all the rage years ago,  who's to say what will be popular to a new generation of collectors? Trends come and go. Let's face it, most members of this forum aren't exactly kids. Who can say the next generation will even want our bikes. I collect B-movie cowboy collectables . ( Roy Rogers,  Gene Autry , Hopalong Cassidy etc.) The value of this stuff is falling because the group of people with an attachment to it are slowly but surely  getting smaller. Same thing could happen with vintage bikes.


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## partsguy (Feb 21, 2018)

deepsouth said:


> If restored bikes were all the rage years ago,  who's to say what will be popular to a new generation of collectors? Trends come and go. Let's face it, most members of this forum aren't exactly kids. Who can say the next generation will even want our bikes. I collect B-movie cowboy collectables . ( Roy Rogers,  Gene Autry , Hopalong Cassidy etc.) The value of this stuff is falling because the group of people with an attachment to it are slowly but surely  getting smaller. Same thing could happen with vintage bikes.




My dad builds vintage RC planes. Beautiful, fun aircraft. Control-line planes have become a dead hobby, yet it is something my dad enjoys. Control-line planes were popular prior to the 1960s, and most people who grew up with them are now into their 70s, and no longer fly. My dad will soon turn 52, and he says he is one of the youngest ones still flying those planes. Rare kits that once went for hundreds of dollars or more, are now $40-$150. With few exceptions. Worse yet, today's RC modeler does not know how to build ANYTHING. Planes, cars, boats, you name it. They all buy pre-built.


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## Boris (Feb 21, 2018)

PCHiggin said:


> Threads like this should be deleted. HORDER has been cool about the whole thing,so far as Im concerned. Its his stuff,he enjoys restoring ,his work shouldnt be put out here in a "what NOT to do " thread.This is BS,I keep looking back here hoping for something cool,other than what HORDER posts,not going to happen,I guess.




You misinterpret the intent of this thread.
Number one: It was posted as an open discussion by seasoned collectors for newcomers to look at the PROS and CONS of restoring an original paint bike.
Number two: It was posted to redirect this type of discussion AWAY from HOWARD'S thread in which he was showcasing his project.


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## weebob (Feb 21, 2018)

Boris said:


> You misinterpret the intent of this thread.
> Number one: It was posted as an open discussion by seasoned collectors for newcomers to look at the PROS and CONS of restoring an original paint bike.
> Number two: It was posted to redirect this type of discussion AWAY from HOWARD'S thread in which he was showcasing his project.



Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier'n puttin' it back.


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## Freqman1 (Feb 21, 2018)

bikewhorder said:


> Its sad, but in the grand scheme of things I think whats really sad is that this is what we are wasting our time fretting and fussing about while our oceans are dying.  Its just an old bike, the paint is gone, let it go.



The Great Barrier Reef attracts sharks. Sharks kill surfers. Did I just pull a Vince/Dave? People complain about global warming--I have the best tan I've had in years in February? What does this have to do with the price of rice in China? Thought this was a bike site where we discuss stuff like to restore/not restore/how to restore/what is restore? V/r Shawn


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## partsguy (Feb 21, 2018)




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## Artweld (Feb 24, 2018)

HANDLE BAR HORDER said:


> I believe like many others are saying it's your bike you should be able to do with it as you please but with that being said  i've heard many times in this hobby that we are supposed to be the caretakers of these beautiful antique works of art for the next generation or the next person sometimes I spend more money on these beautiful bicycles then they're worth just so I can have them and protect them  and keep them as original as possible for the next generation all my bikes are really original and that's all I collect I'm a firm believer in not  Parting or restoring original paint bicycles  and being a good caretaker for the next generation with that being said somebody said put your money where your mouth is.. if I would've seen that bike for sale you better believe I would put my money down on that that's a very sought after bike and was in good original condition that's just my opinion about the situation by the way I have 80 original heavyweight tank bicycles in my collection



Well said, certain bike are works of art in untouched condition, not all bikes are better left alone but in my opinion certain vintage bicycle are true works of a time period long past, and should be left alone with that unique patina, the same applies to a 10+ find vintage bike in perfect condition paint, tires, seat etc, again this is just my personal opinion, it's those bikes in between this area that the owner must decide on its future, restoration, parts, etc... 

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk


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## catfish (Feb 24, 2018)




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## barracuda (Feb 24, 2018)

bikewhorder said:


> Its sad, but in the grand scheme of things I think whats really sad is that this is what we are wasting our time fretting and fussing about while our oceans are dying.




Think long term... 100 years from now, the difference between an original paint and a restored bike will be... very, very little. The only issue will be whether or not it will make it to Bartertown.


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## Boris (Feb 24, 2018)

Jon Olson's 1938 Roadmaster Supreme. Before and after.


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## GTs58 (Feb 24, 2018)

And the 41 Streamliner's before and after. And it was not all rusted up like Howards bike.


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## catfish (Feb 24, 2018)

If you own the bike, do what ever makes you happy.


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## SKPC (Feb 24, 2018)

It may be most important to 1st recognize every-ones posts above have weight to them.  Very good examples above of the Schwinn and Roadmaster difference.  The Roadmaster was missing original parts and the paint was toast.  The Scwhinn on the other hand I would consider  a "cleaner", and what I would more accurately call a "preservation" candidate.   Both well done & I approve. What to "preserve" and what to "restore" is a slippery slope that will only be more clearly defined perhaps 50 years from now.   I would bet on preserved.(Edit: as more desirable as opposed to perfect) .skpc


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## GTs58 (Feb 24, 2018)

SKPC said:


> It may be most important to 1st recognize every-ones posts above have weight to them.  Very good examples above of the Schwinn and Roadmaster difference.  The Roadmaster was missing original parts and the paint was toast.  The Scwhinn on the other hand I would consider  a "cleaner", and what I would more accurately call a "preservation" candidate.   Both well done & I approve. What to "preserve" and what to "restore" is the slippery slope that will only be more clearly defined perhaps 50 years from now.   I would bet on preserved..skpc




What to preserve and what to restore is and always will be decided by the current owner and I doubt that will change in the future.

Quote: _I made a living for 35 years restoring everything from cars to furniture. I trust my own judgement over most others in deciding what course of action to take when beginning a project. If a bike isn't a 6++, I'm going to restore it._


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## A_J (Feb 24, 2018)

If it aint broke don't fix it. That's just my opinion to each his own. I feel like these things earn every bit of how they look nowadays as far as a good patina goes. But then again the fancy show bikes that people like have to come from somewhere. End of the day do what ya want it's your time and your dime


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## Boris (Feb 24, 2018)

catfish said:


> If you own the bike, do what ever makes you happy.




...but first, it may be wise to arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible with regard to your bike. Again, advice to the novice.


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## vincev (Feb 24, 2018)

I enjoy seeing others opinions on renovations,restoration,or leave original..I would not like to see this thread taken down because members have different opinions though. Everyone has their opinion on this subject and just because it may not be a unanimous opinion ,dont take it down.


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## bikemonkey (Feb 24, 2018)

deepsouth said:


> I'm glad this is being discussed . No one has the right to tell another person what they can do with their own property.  Just because you choose to do certain things with your bikes doesn't mean it's the only or right way. Please respect others rights to do as they please, even if you don't agree with it.  In the immortal words of Rodney King ;
> "Why can't we all just get along ".



In the immortal words of Reginald Denny, "Why ya'll beating on me?"...


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## Brian R. (Feb 25, 2018)

I have a few points I'd like to share, but will start by saying I generally favour avoiding restoring artifacts. 1. The bike was not a one-off custom job. It was mass-produced by the thousands or tens of thousands. There are others like it in better condition out there. 2. Even million dollar oil paintings by masters receive restoration work if necessary, to remove soot or nicotine, or revive colours, etc. 3. I think most of our abhorrence for restoration comes from having seen badly done work - one colour spray can jobs that ruin a bike. Howard is a professional restorer. 4. There is value in seeing original paint and leather, but there is also value in seeing an object exactly as it was when first made (like the original colours in an oil painting and not the soot on top). 5. Ironically, the fact that this bike had og paint contributed to its corrosion. I've seen very cool threads on this site where a kid's bad spray job 30 yrs ago was carefully removed to uncover beautifully preserved og paint that had been protected all these years.

I hope this thread doesn't discourage Howard from posting pics of the bike when finished. I'd love to see his craftsmanship.


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## bike (Feb 25, 2018)

" 2. Even million dollar oil paintings by masters receive restoration work if necessary, to remove soot or nicotine, or revive colours, etc."
Really?

I think there is some middle ground here.

Blast the Sistine chapel and repaint it...

Far from a mass produced bicycle I know-

That type of restoration (art etc) would be attempting to preserve what is left.... and I believe even there the trend is "less is more" many eager well intentioned people have ruined even precious art works.

PS I have an associates degree from McPherson College in "Auto Restoration Technology" (really) from the early 1980s I was involved in restorations of good originals- I love a good restoration but there are enough bikes that are already beyond saving to restore,  It just pains me to see a decent one restored.

Sorry for my rant but I just hadda

pps I am not saying  Howard is a villain, he is a great guy- I am discussing the prudence of restoration for the newcomer- just food for thought


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## Brian R. (Feb 25, 2018)

If you think about it, he is preserving what's left. He's not building a replica bike. The real villain is the kid who left his bike out in the rain to get rusty, not Howard.

p.s. I went back to Howard's original thread again just now and had a really close look at the bike in question. I agree with other posters who have said that it's his bike and he can do what he wants. If it had been my bike I would not have restored it but then I don't have Howard's skills. AND if it were my bike and I was preserving it for future generations, my wife would put it on the curb on garbage day after I croak. In short, it's pretty darn crusty and there's nothing to say some owner in the next 100 years wouldn't toss it. By restoring it _correctly and accurately_, I believe he IS preserving it for future generations. Obviously others disagree and that's fine. Everyone has the right to their opinion - thanks for reading mine.


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## vincev (Feb 25, 2018)

I think bike collecting goes through phases.It seems to me that new collectors like the shiny "restored" bikes.As a collector stays in the hobby they start to appreciate the original find.Lets face it.Members on the Cabe are super happy when they find that untouched original.You dont read many boasting about a "restoration" they found unless it is rare. Even then most would really want an original rare find over a "restored" one


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## catfish (Feb 25, 2018)

Art restoration. Before and after.....


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## bikewhorder (Feb 25, 2018)

I just don't even understand how people find the time and energy to restore their bikes.  I struggle to unpack and reassemble mine. Here's the current state of my twin 40 I bought over three years ago.


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## Artweld (Feb 25, 2018)

I started my bike hobby back in 1994, back then it was all about just having fun, some of the original paint frames that I found I would just try to build back up with any parts that I could find original or not, it was awesome just getting them together so I could ride them, the one pictured is a 50's schwinn didn't know much about it back then as I just restored it with parts that I found I can't even remember if the parts were correct or not, I was just enjoying the hobby and built it the way that made me feel proud of what I had done. 
Even back then there was always someone trying to tell me you needed to do this or that to a bike and for years I believed that, but as time went by a friend in the bicycle field who is huge collector just told me do what you want to do who cares its your bike, and from that time on all decisions on bikes where my choice and my choice only. 



Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk


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## 2jakes (Feb 25, 2018)

vincev said:


> I think bike collecting goes through phases.It seems to me that new collectors like the shiny "restored" bikes.As a collector stays in the hobby they start to appreciate the original find.Lets face it.Members on the Cabe are super happy when they find that untouched original.You dont read many boasting about a "restoration" they found unless it is rare. Even then most would really want an original rare find over a "restored" one




*I mostly give a “Like” to C.A.B.E. member Hoofhearted (patric) every time he posts.
*
*Now I'm including Vincev too.*

*When you have a chance, read what he has to say! *
*It’s worth it!*


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## charnleybob (Feb 25, 2018)

I like some restored bikes and I like bike with original paint, no matter what the condition.
J R Planck, supposedly, use to smash all bike parts he didn't sell, at noon, at the Ann Arbor meet, till he died.
I know of early 1900's bike, that sat in the basement of a hardware store till it was bought in the late 1980's at an auction.
Mint shape, completely all original paint, nickel, etc.
The new owner quickly parted it out.
I don't care what some do with their stuff, because they are going to do it anyway.
I wouldn't have restored that 4 Gill.


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## 2jakes (Feb 25, 2018)

charnleybob said:


> I like some restored bikes and I like bike with original paint, no matter what the condition.
> J R Planck, supposedly, use to smash all bike parts he didn't sell, at noon, at the Ann Arbor meet, till he died.
> I know of early 1900's bike, that sat in the basement of a hardware store till it was bought in the late 1980's at an auction.
> Mint shape, completely all original paint, nickel, etc.
> ...




Before the web C.A.B.E.
I remember J R sending me photos of the bikes he had for sale.
Do you know why  he would smash all the bike parts he didn’t sell?


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## bike (Feb 25, 2018)

JR was not calm == he was cranky

I have been tempted because of frustration and have seen others in other hobbies do it too


Chris- wow if that is how the twin 40 was shipped I am blown away but the caution of the carrier as they did not smash the headshroud? When I buy it from you I will pick up at copake cant rely on being that lucky again!


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## tryder (Feb 25, 2018)

charnleybob said:


> .......
> J R Planck, supposedly, use to smash all bike parts he didn't sell, at noon, at the Ann Arbor meet, till he died.



That's just plain straight up WEIRD!


charnleybob said:


> I know of early 1900's bike, that sat in the basement of a hardware store till it was bought in the late 1980's at an auction.
> Mint shape, completely all original paint, nickel, etc.
> The new owner quickly parted it out....
> .



That's just plain straight up EVIL!


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## bikewhorder (Feb 25, 2018)

bike said:


> Chris- wow if that is how the twin 40 was shipped I am blown away but the caution of the carrier as they did not smash the headshroud? When I buy it from you I will pick up at copake cant rely on being that lucky again!




The head shroud is damaged but it was like that before it was shipped.  I'm not ready to let this one go yet, I wanna blast all this crappy OG paint off it first, then we can talk.


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## Kickstand3 (Feb 25, 2018)

vincev said:


> I think bike collecting goes through phases.It seems to me that new collectors like the shiny "restored" bikes.As a collector stays in the hobby they start to appreciate the original find.Lets face it.Members on the Cabe are super happy when they find that untouched original.You dont read many boasting about a "restoration" they found unless it is rare. Even then most would really want an original rare find over a "restored" one



Unless it’s rar !  The subject matter is also huge!  In the Car business a good restoration will out run a original in most cases. A resto VW Van just brought a word record over $ 200 grand at Auction. Iv always loved bicycles and art . I apply a lot of what learned in the car business with bicycles . I have restored bicycles that I really dig and are RARE. Face it how about a good restored seat big monies! A good restored bicycle is really expensive to build


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## charnleybob (Feb 25, 2018)

2jakes said:


> Before the web C.A.B.E.
> I remember J R sending me photos of the bikes he had for sale.
> Do you know why  he would smash all the bike parts he didn’t sell?





J R was a showman and a car salesman.
He had this huge mallet and big signs on his table announcing when he would do it.
He also was a collector and had really nice bikes and there is no way he would have smashed anything of value.
He liked the attention!
This hobby has had some great characters in it!


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## 2jakes (Feb 26, 2018)

charnleybob said:


> J R was a showman and a car salesman.
> He had this huge mallet and big signs on his table announcing when he would do it.
> He also was a collector and had really nice bikes and there is no way he would have smashed anything of value.
> He liked the attention!
> This hobby has had some great characters in it!




Nic Frising from Missouri.
When the C.A.B.E. was a newsletter by Richard Truett.
Nic would supply the drawings, cartoons and upcoming events.
One of the things I enjoyed about the bike newsletters was that it
was all positive for the most part with regards to whatever bike you owned
or what you did to the bike.


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## catfish (Feb 26, 2018)

charnleybob said:


> I like some restored bikes and I like bike with original paint, no matter what the condition.
> J R Planck, supposedly, use to smash all bike parts he didn't sell, at noon, at the Ann Arbor meet, till he died.
> I know of early 1900's bike, that sat in the basement of a hardware store till it was bought in the late 1980's at an auction.
> Mint shape, completely all original paint, nickel, etc.
> ...




I got to see JR smash parts at Trexlertown once.


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## catfish (Feb 26, 2018)

bikewhorder said:


> I just don't even understand how people find the time and energy to restore their bikes.  I struggle to unpack and reassemble mine. Here's the current state of my twin 40 I bought over three years ago.
> 
> View attachment 760035




I've got a lot of bikes in boxes just like this. It easier to store them this way. I'll get to them when I can....


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## bikewhorder (Mar 11, 2018)

catfish said:


> Art restoration. Before and after..... View attachment 759977




I thought this was a joke when you posted it but this really happened!  http://storyism.net/worst-art-restoration-in-history-spawns-potato-jesus-meme-makeovers/


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## bobcycles (Mar 12, 2018)

years ago a photographer from Palm Springs contacted me regarding the restoration of 3 bikes.
I agreed to see what he had in mind....
To my shock and dismay, he brought over 3 Schwinn ladies deluxe ballooners...
a Green Panther, a Blue Panther, and a Starlet.
ALL THREE BIKES were about condition 8-9 on a 10 scale.
They were unbelievably killer originals.
I explained the futility of his idea and how they should be left alone...
but he insisted on going all the way with all three bikes..
As in .....full on every nut and bolt restoration.
He used them as props in his photography business and I guess they had to be 'nice'.
They were in such nice original condition I doubt the camera could even differentiate
between the originals and the restored results.

I went ahead and did the work after trying to talk him out of it.

Years later.....he must have tired with the bikes and I noticed he had listed on all three on Ebay for low opening bids of around 300-400 a bike.  I wish he would have contacted me
I would have bought all three for what they sold for on eBay...maybe even paid more.
NO details in the auction write up description whatsoever.... piss poor pix.....
Unreal.
He spent around 2K per bike doing EVERYTHING as in 100% restorations...
and made absolutely no note of that in his descriptions.
A local collector here won one of them and was blown away with the deal he got as they all sold for not much
more than the opening bid.

wowsers


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## bobcycles (Mar 12, 2018)

vincev said:


> I think bike collecting goes through phases.It seems to me that new collectors like the shiny "restored" bikes.As a collector stays in the hobby they start to appreciate the original find.Lets face it.Members on the Cabe are super happy when they find that untouched original.You dont read many boasting about a "restoration" they found unless it is rare. Even then most would really want an original rare find over a "restored" one





While I don't personally collect restored bikes.  I really do enjoy restoring bikes to back to as close to new and original as possible.
Especially when the candidates are super rough candidates which only suggest one direction.  
I've become more lenient over the years as to what condition a leave it alone "survivor" should be....
maybe dropping from grade 6-7 to 5


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## bikemonkey (Mar 12, 2018)

bobcycles said:


> years ago a photographer from Palm Springs contacted me regarding the restoration of 3 bikes.
> I agreed to see what he had in mind....
> To my shock and dismay, he brought over 3 Schwinn ladies deluxe ballooners...
> a Green Panther, a Blue Panther, and a Starlet.
> ...



Bob - that was a helluva story....


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## nycet3 (Mar 12, 2018)

I find unrestored bikes have a number of pleasing qualities that restored bikes don't have. (I write books and TV for a living, and that's the best sentence I can come up with.)

Newcomers to the bicycle hobby should maybe go to some shows and look at original & restored bikes in person. (For me, pictures on the Web rarely deliver the impact of an in-person bike.) Again, just my tastes, but restored bikes don't do anything for me when I'm standing next to one. Just as a rusty "boat anchor" does nothing for someone else. I also like the feel of original condition bikes: the finish on the tubes, the grips, seat, tires, all of it. Again, my tastes.

So visit some bikes. See which bikes talk back.

Another note to newcomers: joining a forum and posting photos of bikes (unrestored or restored) can and often will result in spirited debate. As long as the debate isn't hateful, so be it.


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## vincev (Mar 12, 2018)

bobcycles said:


> While I don't personally collect restored bikes.  I really do enjoy restoring bikes to back to as close to new and original as possible.
> Especially when the candidates are super rough candidates which only suggest one direction.
> I've become more lenient over the years as to what condition a leave it alone "survivor" should be....
> maybe dropping from grade 6-7 to 5



I think the use of the word "restored" has lost its meaning.Anybody who repaints,chromes instead of nickles,paints wrong paint schemes,etc. calls their bikes "restored" There is a difference between restored and redone. True restoration is making it the way it left the factory.Makes no difference how nice an object comes out in the end it is not restored if it isnt correct.Its just redone. C.L. and FB sites are full of "restored" bikes


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## CWCMAN (Mar 12, 2018)

Nice shiny paint job and bright chrome but this guy paid no attention to the frame dart details as he claimed he would do.

looking at the dart detail on the original frame compared to his finished product is mind boggling how far off it is especially at the head tube tank area. The frame tube darts are just as bad.

Look, it's his bike and he can do whatever makes him smile, I get it,  but don't claim to make patterns and follow the original paint scheme and then get it all wrong.

Bike devalued in my opinion, but i'll give him $2000 for the tank.


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## 2jakes (Mar 12, 2018)

vincev said:


> I think the use of the word "restored" has lost its meaning.Anybody who repaints,chromes instead of nickles,paints wrong paint schemes,etc. calls their bikes "restored" There is a difference between restored and redone. True restoration is making it the way it left the factory.Makes no difference how nice an object comes out in the end it is not restored if it isnt correct.Its just redone. C.L. and FB sites are full of "restored" bikes



I've only have seen one restoration as you've described.
It was at an antique car show years ago.
This person explained to me what was used to paint a new car at the factory
back in the early days before spray paint tools or modern paint material was available.
He added that todays paints are far superior or longer lasting then in the past, 
but he wanted to use the techniques that were used on his model when it was 
being done at the factory.
Looking at the other cars that were "restored”, although very well done, 
they looked modern somehow.
I will never forget how my 1954 Western Flyer X-53 looked fresh out of the carton
from the factory.


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## saladshooter (Mar 12, 2018)

Love the mauve though.


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## bike (Mar 12, 2018)

beautiful job! could have been done on a basket case though- c'est la vie1


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## vincev (Mar 12, 2018)

CWCMAN said:


> Nice shiny paint job and bright chrome but this guy paid no attention to the frame dart details as he claimed he would do.
> 
> looking at the dart detail on the original frame compared to his finished product is mind boggling how far off it is especially at the head tube tank area. The frame tube darts are just as bad.
> 
> ...



 Not really talking about that bike.Just bikes in general.Restored has lost its true meaning and is misused by many. Not bashing anybodys project but wish people would use the correct terms.


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## vincev (Mar 12, 2018)

2jakes said:


> I've only have seen one restoration as you've described.
> It was at an antique car show years ago.
> This person explained to me what was used
> to paint a new car at the factory back in the
> ...



My buddy has a 38 Chevy that came in second place in the Nationals.They crawled under his car and found a zip tie holding a wire and cost him 1 point and first place.lol


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## Boris (Mar 12, 2018)

vincev said:


> Not really talking about that bike.Just bikes in general.Restored has lost its true meaning and is misused by many. Not bashing anybodys project but wish people would use the correct terms.




Yesterday, I took a bike out of the shed where it was being stored, took it for a long ride, got home, and restored it in the shed.


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## vincev (Mar 12, 2018)

Boris said:


> Yesterday, I took a bike out of the shed where it was being stored, took it for a long ride, got home, and restored it in the shed.



I have an old Schwinn that I may bring back to the store where it was bought .Would that also be restored ??


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## Boris (Mar 12, 2018)

vincev said:


> I have an old Schwinn that I may bring back to the store where it was bought .Would that also be restored ??




Yes, that would be another correct use of the term, as long as you still have the receipt.


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## CWCMAN (Mar 12, 2018)

vincev said:


> Not really talking about that bike.Just bikes in general.Restored has lost its true meaning and is misused by many. Not bashing anybodys project but wish people would use the correct terms.




I know, but I was..........

Besides I think this thread kind of started with the above bike in mind.


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## Thonyv1974_ (Mar 12, 2018)

An example of a mix of original paint pieces and fresh repop pieces  ( 95 anniversary phantom ) , don't exactly know if it's a restoration or Crustoration. ..  it rides well and I love the fact that the paint is original. .... 
Thanks for letting me ad on this post. .. ( we love original paint bikes )...... my 2 cents. ...


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## bike (Mar 12, 2018)

farfignewton


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## Jay81 (Mar 12, 2018)

vincev said:


> I think the use of the word "restored" has lost its meaning.Anybody who repaints,chromes instead of nickles,paints wrong paint schemes,etc. calls their bikes "restored" There is a difference between restored and redone. True restoration is making it the way it left the factory.Makes no difference how nice an object comes out in the end it is not restored if it isnt correct.Its just redone. C.L. and FB sites are full of "restored" bikes




You hit the nail on the head here. The vast majority of bikes that are said to be "restored" are not even close. Many of them are actually restroyed. (Repainted/redone so badly/incorrectly that they destroyed the bike's value in the process.
In my opinion it must be exactly the way it left the factory, or it can't technically be classified as restored.
The preservation or "rustoration" that many of us do, is closer to a restoration than most so called restorations. 
Example, removing house paint to reveal factory original paint, therefore restoring what's left of the original factory finish.


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## 2jakes (Mar 12, 2018)

vincev said:


> I have an old Schwinn that I may bring back to the store where it was bought .Would that also be restored ??




Yes Vincev....you are absolutely correct!

I have the 95th Anniversary Schwinn Black Phantom. It still has the “original" colors, tires and saddle
in the sense that this was made by the factory.
That it is a “reproduction” is something else.

Although I cannot restore mine because the Schwinn store went out of business.


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## Jay81 (Mar 12, 2018)

2jakes said:


> Yes Vincev....you are absolutely correct!
> 
> I have the 95th Anniversary Schwinn Black Phantom. It still has the “original" colors, tires and saddle
> in the sense that this was made by the factory.
> ...




The reproduction phantoms were made in A factory, not THE factory. 
Hence the "reproduction" status. 
However if it still has all it's parts that it came with, we could call it an "original reproduction"


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## 2jakes (Mar 12, 2018)

Jay81 said:


> The reproduction phantoms were made in A factory, not THE factory.
> Hence the "reproduction" status.
> However if it still has all it's parts that it came with, we could call it an "original reproduction"




Meaning....THE factory in ‘CHICAGO’ !


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## tryder (Mar 12, 2018)

bobcycles said:


> .....Especially when the candidates are super rough candidates which only suggest one direction.
> I've become more lenient over the years as to what condition a leave it alone "survivor" should be....
> maybe dropping from grade 6-7 to 5




I usually end up with a 4-6 and have been quite happy with even lower after a few beers...


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## Bikermaniac (Mar 12, 2018)

If you own a bike you can do whatever you want with it, repaint it, re-brand it, re-chrome it, chop it, modify it, what ever makes you happy, but in my opinion an all original bicycle is more "valuable" than a restored one
There's only a few restored bicycles that worth almost the same as an original, but that not will not apply to every bicycle, so be careful what you do with your bike...and one more thing, if you publish your projects in a public forum, be prepared for all kind of comments, some on favor and others not so much.


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## bobcycles (Mar 13, 2018)

bikemonkey said:


> Bob - that was a helluva story....




True story, every detail.  The bikes were incredible condition originals....
people are 'funny'.


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## bobcycles (Mar 13, 2018)

I think bikes that have undergone a thorough and accurate as humanly possible restorations should be regarded more
as art than a 'bike'.  NOS tires etc.... keep em that way...hang the bike on a wall.  A old friend and serious avid
collector up in Seattle had 1 or 2 mounted beautifully on the wall of his living room...  3D art!  Totally eye popping
to be able to see something vintage restored shiny and new and at eye level makes even more of an impact.
One would think that with the cost of restorations and the value of the bikes restored at high quality levels
would ensure preservation.....handled like art and surviving as fine art survives through future generations.

Don't get me wrong, I believe killer originals or rare examples in any condition should be treated the same
way pretty much...but you have a little more freedom or leeway if there are nicks and scratches, patina etc when
you are handling original unrestored bikes.


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## cyclingday (Mar 14, 2018)

Very true, Bob.
But, I looked at the before and after pictures of your magnificently restored 1941 Super Deluxe Henderson, and I marveled at how that original condition bike got from starting out its existence in the pristine shape of your restoration, and ended up in the heavily patina'd state that you found it in.
I'm sure that none of those scratches, dents and dings were intentional.
That represented a lot of individual incidents that occurred over a long period of time, to accumulate the distressed condition that bike was found in.
How did it get that way?
If they had only known, they would've taken better care of their bike.


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## bobcycles (Mar 15, 2018)

cyclingday said:


> Very true, Bob.
> But, I looked at the before and after pictures of your magnificently restored 1941 Super Deluxe Henderson, and I marveled at how that original condition bike got from starting out its existence in the pristine shape of your restoration, and ended up in the heavily patina'd state that you found it in.
> I'm sure that none of those scratches, dents and dings were intentional.
> That represented a lot of individual incidents that occurred over a long period of time, to accumulate the distressed condition that bike was found in.
> ...





my guess is they rode it like I ride...

lots of bunny hops, ghost rides, curb slams, no kickstand throw downs.... ... and drunken incidents between me, my bike, and road raging brawling motorists where the bike can serve as a shield for
the items hurled or shot at me!

just a guess....


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## vincev (Mar 16, 2018)

I think we can compare a so called "restored" bike to a woman who has had implants,facelifts,dyed hair,fake eyelashes,etc. She may be fun to ride and gets a lot of looks but underneath its the same old lady.


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## 2jakes (Mar 16, 2018)

vincev said:


> I think we can compare a so called "restored" bike to a woman who has had implants,facelifts,dyed hair,fake eyelashes,etc. She may be fun to ride and gets a lot of looks but underneath its the same old lady.



*A lovely restoration!*
63 year old Christie Brinkley and hers daughters on each side.



 
And she can also walk on water.


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## Boris (Mar 16, 2018)

vincev said:


> I think we can compare a so called "restored" bike to a woman who has had implants,facelifts,dyed hair,fake eyelashes,etc. She may be fun to ride and gets a lot of looks but underneath its the same old lady.




What about if she's had a sex change operation?


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## A_J (Mar 16, 2018)

Boris said:


> What about if she's had a sex change operation?



comparable to a restored convertible bike


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## charnleybob (Mar 17, 2018)

The elephant in the room, that new collectors may be unaware of, are restorations that get distressed to look like original patina.
There are some experts in this hobby that make it hard to figure out if it's real or not.
I like good restorations and I like condition "what happened to this bike?"
All depends on the bike.
If you are new to this hobby, here's a clue, don't buy everything that rolls, buy a nice rider and think twice before sinking deep money in your projects.


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## Eddieman (Mar 17, 2018)

charnleybob said:


> The elephant in the room, that new collectors may be unaware of, are restorations that get distressed to look like original patina.
> There are some experts in this hobby that make it hard to figure out if it's real or not.
> I like good restorations and I like condition "what happened to this bike?"
> All depends on the bike.
> If you are new to this hobby, here's a clue, don't buy everything that rolls, buy a nice rider and think twice before sinking deep money in your projects.




Agreed, buy what you like and do with it what you want.


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## mazdaflyer (Mar 17, 2018)

Came in on this late. I’ve retro modded, ratted, customized, parted and “restored” some bikes. I’ve never acquired a bike as nice like the first one pictured in this thread. But even I would have left it original. The ones I’ve molested have been rusty partial bikes to start with. I would loved to have found the topic of discussion bike. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 2jakes (Mar 17, 2018)

deepsouth said:


> I'm glad this is being discussed . No one has the right to tell another person what they can do with their own property.  Just because you choose to do certain things with your bikes doesn't mean it's the only or right way. Please respect others rights to do as they please, even if you don't agree with it.  In the immortal words of Rodney King ;
> "Why can't we all just get along ".




*The moment a bike is posted on a*
*public forum which is opened to everyone.*

*Expect to get different comments and opinions.*

*Some may be positive or informative.*
*Others will be negative.*


*Block option is a wonderful tool! *

P.S.
There was a time when bicycle newsletters was the only way to
show or keep in touch with
the world of bicycles from the past.
I don't recall any issues like today.


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## rustjunkie (May 8, 2018)

Short vid, listen to the first 2 min:






What he said. Mr. Ashworth puts into words what I believe many of us think and feel about "old stuff".


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## ZE52414 (Jun 1, 2018)

Not to bring this page up again, but I had a serious question. Thoughts on this 35 DD would a restoration hurt or help this bike? Cause I’m about a couple of days away from taking it down to bare metal. And would sandblasting hurt the bike/tank? Thanks for any thoughts.


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## Autocycleplane (Jun 1, 2018)

ZE52414 said:


> View attachment 817244 View attachment 817245 View attachment 817247 Not to bring this page up again, but I had a serious question. Thoughts on this 35 DD would a restoration hurt or help this bike? Cause I’m about a couple of days away from taking it down to bare metal. And would sandblasting hurt the bike/tank? Thanks for any thoughts.




Unless you are willing to be upside down on the value of the bike to do a real restoration and not a mediocre refurb don’t bother. The worst thing you could do for the value and soul of that bicycle would be to strip it and then bail on the proper resto.

Why the rush? Spend a little time with it and decide what’s best for you. Shop around for proper paint and chrome prices in the meantime and use that information to make a better decision.

My $.02 since you asked.


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## fattyre (Jun 1, 2018)

Autocycleplane said:


> Unless you are willing to be upside down on the value of the bike to do a real restoration and not a mediocre refurb don’t bother. The worst thing you could do for the value and soul of that bicycle would be to strip it and then bail on the proper resto.
> 
> Why the rush? Spend a little time with it and decide what’s best for you. Shop around for proper paint and chrome prices in the meantime and use that information to make a better decision.
> 
> My $.02 since you asked.





Second that.  Especially the patience part.  Been there and still have regrets about my fast decisions and mediocre results.  Unless you are willing to go all in, you'll probably just mess up a bike that someone else really wants all while possibly decreasing the value & sell-ability.  Look how many restored bikes sit and sit without a buyer.  Very few bikes are "forever" bikes with most collectors.

Plus I think that bike has a pretty killer look to it as is.  New rubber & leather and I be ecstatic to own that.


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## ZE52414 (Jun 1, 2018)

Autocycleplane said:


> Unless you are willing to be upside down on the value of the bike to do a real restoration and not a mediocre refurb don’t bother. The worst thing you could do for the value and soul of that bicycle would be to strip it and then bail on the proper resto.
> 
> Why the rush? Spend a little time with it and decide what’s best for you. Shop around for proper paint and chrome prices in the meantime and use that information to make a better decision.
> 
> My $.02 since you asked.



My plan was to have a proper resto. If it’s getting painted it will be done right. No rattle can! I was wondering in the proper restoration process do they normally start off by sand blasting the painted parts or do they chemical strip and smooth out the light pits. Not exactly sure what a full blown restoration would cost but if I were to guess I wouldn’t be sitting to bad. Thanks Eric! 

Zach


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## ZE52414 (Jun 1, 2018)

fattyre said:


> Second that.  Especially the patience part.  Been there and still have regrets about my fast decisions and mediocre results.  Unless you are willing to go all in, you'll probably just mess up a bike that someone else really wants all while possibly decreasing the value & sell-ability.  Look how many restored bikes sit and sit without a buyer.  Very few bikes are "forever" bikes with most collectors.
> 
> Plus I think that bike has a pretty killer look to it as is.  New rubber & leather and I be ecstatic to own that.



I agree 100%. I’m going to get the rear looking like the front remove the dings in The rear fender work on that saddle and just ride it for now. The rubber is in ridable shape so I may just leave them be for now. 

That and I’m not real fond of the 2 color choices. Unless I missed the others!


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## the tinker (Jun 1, 2018)

ZE52414 said:


> I agree 100%. I’m going to get the rear looking like the front .........ARE WE TALKING ABOUT A BIKE HERE? She looked good from far....but was far from good........


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## bike (Jun 1, 2018)

Ride it like that- will turn more heads than old dresser (EL,VL,flh etc)


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