# Dear 1937 True Hawthorne Zep Owners



## Barto (Jun 1, 2022)

More Zep discussion.

In 1937 I understand that the Snyder "Fastback" frames were used by several builders, the big two being Hawthorne and Rollfast.  Both companies shared components as well as frames, at a minimum Tanks!  If someone knows what else was shared in 1937, please add to the thread.  

Because I'm now trying to piece one together, I would like to use correct parts.  My now current point of interest is the rear carrier on the 1937 Zep, (Strictly a Hawthorne product).  What is it supposed to look like?  I have photos of what look like OG Hawthorne and Rollfast sporting the exact same Rear Carrier!  But I've seen photos of Hawthornes having carriers previously thought to be Rollfast!   If you look at the Catalog photo, the carrier mounted on the bike on the right (the Zep) and the carrier highlighted at the bottom of the catalog page look different to me!! Which one is correct?  

So, what do the Carriers look like on your *True *1937 Zep! 
All photos and the Catalog page are copied from various threads on the CABE as I looked for what is correct!  

Thx,

BART


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## Freqman1 (Jun 1, 2022)

Hawthorne and Rollfast were not the makers of these bikes. All of these bikes no matter how badged are Snyder products. The seller and model were what determined which parts went on it. The first pic is the correct Zep rack. V/r Shawn


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## Barto (Jun 1, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Hawthorne and Rollfast were not the makers of these bikes. All of these bikes no matter how badged are Snyder products. The seller and model were what determined which parts went on it. The first pic is the correct Zep rack. V/r Shawn



So, with that said , it would’nt be uncommon to have multiply common parts between brands!
Based on previous conversations, I was thinking the same Shawn - then I started looking and got confused!

Bart


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## Freqman1 (Jun 1, 2022)

Also I assume you have the locking fork. No locking fork-no Zep! V/r Shawn


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## Barto (Jun 1, 2022)

The lock is on the stearing tube!


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## mrg (Jun 2, 2022)

Ok, first, they are all Snydey built, Rollfast is their in house badge, some parts are shared, I think the store/distributor picked parts for their stores model out of a parts book ( or Snyder put a package together or a designer did ), some things were more specific as the locks on Hawthorns, as for the rack in the ad, that's for the Comet above it as that speedo, mine has the same rack as Zep in pic and that rack only fits correctly on a fastback frame and not adjustable like the comet rack. Mine also has what I've always been told was rare rubber cushion & cover/top seat, as far as the lock, always thought frame mount was earlier but was just thinking sense the fork mount has more complicated with moving parts ( that break! ) maybe the frame mount took it's place?, alot of stuff never made it into the catalog, I have a 24 inch Zep with tank & a fork lock, a friend took that lock apart and was never able the put back together.


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## Barto (Jun 2, 2022)

So, I got this same frame from @mrg but without components.  The below photo depicts the 1937 Snyder Frame, correct Paisley Chain Guard and Hawthorne Chain Ring.  The 37 frame & rear fender brackets are void of dropstand stops so it points to a ZEP....Agreed???  I see a hole in the lower rear fender but suspect that's for a reflector and not a drop stand.  Not versed on Handle bars yet, but these look kinda Rollfast to me - thoughts?
My opinion is that Snyder used this Frame to build Hawthorne Zeps!

@Freqman1, is this the same kick stand yours has?


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## fordmike65 (Jun 2, 2022)

Looks like a 36 to me with the early headtube lock. I'm not so sure this would be considered an actual top of the line "Zep".


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## Barto (Jun 2, 2022)

fordmike65 said:


> Looks like a 36 to me with the early headtube lock. I'm not so sure this would be considered an actual top of the line "Zep".



Dag, missed that! Mine has a standard compression bracket!  So, they had 1936 models without a Dropstand?????


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## mrg (Jun 2, 2022)

I think some time in 36 they started the deluxe Zep line for the 37 model yr and were still using the collard seat clamp, don't know if anybody has went as far into the ser #'s to figure out actually when clamp & lock changed, I have never seen any Snyder literature or bike other than Zep with any type of fork lock, only ones I've seen with either lock were badged Hawthorn, as far as drop stand some models had it built into the fender brackets rather than the frame and some yrs built into the frame. Fenders on both bikes pictured are not OG, they had ducktail on both front & rear and seems like most have the square stock stand pictured in ad.


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## Barto (Jun 2, 2022)

fordmike65 said:


> Looks like a 36 to me with the early headtube lock. I'm not so sure this would be considered an actual top of the line "Zep".



Just for information value - other then the Collet, what do you think is suspect Mike?

thx,
Bart


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## fordmike65 (Jun 2, 2022)

Barto said:


> Just for information value - other then the Collet, what do you think is suspect Mike?
> 
> thx,
> Bart



The rarely seen headtube fork lock. Similar to Manton Smith bikes.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 2, 2022)

I've never seen an original Zep with either that fork lock or the collet seat post binder. V/r Shawn


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## mrg (Jun 2, 2022)

Seen one posted here yrs ago ( still looking ), I have never seen any other Snyder/Hawthorn model with a fork lock?, prototype?, never seen it as a option in any catalog either.


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## Barto (Jun 2, 2022)

This is a Manton Smith Lock assy, simple cylinder’s!  The 36 I posted 


Freqman1 said:


> I've never seen an original Zep with either that fork lock or the collet seat post binder. V/r Shawn



Interesting Shawn, begs the question, has anyone seen or have a photo or catalog of a Zep with the same style steer tube lock as the above 1936?
Thx,
Bart


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## Barto (Jun 2, 2022)

mrg said:


> I think some time in 36 they started the deluxe Zep line for the 37 model yr and were still using the collard seat clamp, don't know if anybody has went as far into the ser #'s to figure out actually when clamp & lock changed, I have never seen any Snyder literature or bike other than Zep with any type of fork lock, only ones I've seen with either lock were badged Hawthorn, as far as drop stand some models had it built into the fender brackets rather than the frame and some yrs built into the frame. Fenders on both bikes pictured are not OG, they had ducktail on both front & rear and seems like most have the square stock stand pictured in ad.



Makes sense from a production standpoint, depending on inventory!


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## Archie Sturmer (Jun 2, 2022)

What is the serial number? 
I believe that 1937 Snyder serial prefix letters are 1937-F (new West factory) and 1937-Y (old East factory). 
I recall seeing on this site, a bike with a collet style seat post clamp (postulated to be one year only), and an apparent 1937 serial number prefix; (or maybe it was just hard to read?).


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## mrg (Jun 2, 2022)

The locking mechanism is different with a push pin to lock and I think a few yrs earlier than M&S, I have never seen any Snyder built bike advertised with a fork lock besides the Zep.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 2, 2022)

Just curious if there is any trace of original paint-inside head tube or bottom bracket? Not black not Zep. V/r Shawn


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## fordmike65 (Jun 2, 2022)

Did only Zep's have locking forks? 










						Sold - 37 Rollfast mens with locking fork. | Archive (sold)
					

What is unique about this bike is the locking fork, just like on the Hawthorne Zep. Aside from the tires, everything original. Front light is clean, and working, I don't remember if I checked the rear light, but I think it should be okay.




					thecabe.com


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## Freqman1 (Jun 2, 2022)

fordmike65 said:


> Did only Zep's have locking forks?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Evidently not but that's the only non-Zep I've seen so far with a locking fork. That said it may have been on the Rollfast secret menu! V/r Shawn


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## the tinker (Jun 2, 2022)

Tinker has a Zep hanging from a bike!


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## Barto (Jun 3, 2022)

Archie Sturmer said:


> What is the serial number?
> I believe that 1937 Snyder serial prefix letters are 1937-F (new West factory) and 1937-Y (old East factory).
> I recall seeing on this site, a bike with a collet style seat post clamp (postulated to be one year only), and an apparent 1937 serial number prefix; (or maybe it was just hard to read?).



Not 100% sure, but it looks like “112” on the BB, that’s it!  Any other number locations I should look for?
Bart


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## the tinker (Jun 3, 2022)

You guys have inspired me with this thread.   Always loved these old Snyder sweptback frames. I've had this one a long time and haven't done anything with it, except stick a springer on it. It's no Zep, but it's still pretty cool looking. It sports a heavy coat of brushed on black paint. I've decided to remove a spot and see if the original paint is worth salvaging. If not, I'll repaint it,  or maybe leave as is.  I got this one when I bought my truck, which was 11 years ago, in Chicago. I paid $100 for it. At the time I thought it was a lot of money for this bike, but it was one of those weak moments I have from time to time. I added the springer and guard for another $70 off a beat to death Westernflyer.  It's Hawthorne badged and the frame is solid with no cracks.  I have a couple Colsons hanging next to it. These are the last of my junker balloon bikes.


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## szathmarig (Jun 18, 2022)

Barto said:


> So, I got this same frame from @mrg but without components.  The below photo depicts the 1937 Snyder Frame, correct Paisley Chain Guard and Hawthorne Chain Ring.  The 37 frame & rear fender brackets are void of dropstand stops so it points to a ZEP....Agreed???  I see a hole in the lower rear fender but suspect that's for a reflector and not a drop stand.
> 
> This is the reason why there is only one hole on the fender, because early Zeps had a drop stand with a side clip. No other bikes had this kind of clip, and very few are around. This came off of a true Zep


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## mrg (Jun 18, 2022)

As I remember when I pulled my fork off a few yrs ago to see how it locked it looked og black inside ( and no other color ) and in the catalog I don't see any other models with this frame listed in black?


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## bergarabians (Jun 20, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> I've never seen an original Zep with either that fork lock or the collet seat post binder. V/r Shawn



What lock have you seen on them?


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## Freqman1 (Jun 20, 2022)

bergarabians said:


> What lock have you seen on them?



The standard fork lock


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## Barto (Jun 20, 2022)

mrg said:


> As I remember when I pulled my fork off a few yrs ago to see how it locked it looked og black inside ( and no other color ) and in the catalog I don't see any other models with this frame listed in black?View attachment 1648511



Is this the frame I purchased prior to paint!


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## Barto (Jun 20, 2022)

So, does anyone have a photo of the OG ZEP Kick stand, handlebars and Tail light???
Thx,
Bart


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## mrg (Jun 20, 2022)

Barto said:


> Is this the frame I purchased prior to paint!



It's a pic of the one I have with the fork out, previous owner changed the sprocket because he thought H was for Hawthorn and I added the fenders till I find the dbl ducktails.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 21, 2022)

bergarabians said:


> What lock have you seen on them?











						Wards Hawthorne Zep 1937-1939 -
					

1937 The 1937 model uses the aforementioned ‘fastback” frame whichwas first introduced in 1936. The frame was used for models such as the Sport or Comet and was used all the way through 1939 (but only ’37 for Zeps). The frame was built by H.P. Snyder who distributed most of their product through...




					vintageamericanbicycles.com


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## Freqman1 (Jun 21, 2022)

Barto said:


> So, does anyone have a photo of the OG ZEP Kick stand, handlebars and Tail light???
> Thx,
> Bart



Taillight is a Delta Defender painted black. My bike is buried but you may check Dave's site to see if the pics of Marc's old bike show the stand and bars. V/r Shawn


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## Barto (Jun 21, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Taillight is a Delta Defender painted black. My bike is buried but you may check Dave's site to see if the pics of Marc's old bike show the stand and bars. V/r Shawn



Thanks Shawn,


Freqman1 said:


> Taillight is a Delta Defender painted black. My bike is buried but you may check Dave's site to see if the pics of Marc's old bike show the stand and bars. V/r Shawn



Thanks Shawn, good news for me as I have a few!  I saw a photo of one Zep with a tail light that didn’t have the sidelights!
Bart


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## Barto (Jun 22, 2022)

mrg said:


> It's a pic of the one I have with the fork out, previous owner changed the sprocket because he thought H was for Hawthorn and I added the fenders till I find the dbl ducktails. View attachment 1649434



Interesting, note the screws for the Tanks horn
button!  So there are two style tanks???
One with the horn button installed by itself or I’ve seen one other style, horn, batt tray and button, one component installed in these tanks!  Anyone know the why the difference?


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## szathmarig (Jun 25, 2022)

The one with the horn button alone is the earlier style.


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## bergarabians (Jun 28, 2022)

Barto said:


> Barto said:
> 
> 
> > So, does anyone have a photo of the OG ZEP Kick stand, handlebars and Tail light???
> ...






Barto said:


> So, does anyone have a photo of the OG ZEP Kick stand, handlebars and Tail light???
> Thx,


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## Barto (Jul 7, 2022)

Hey Mark, 

I've not yet 100% decided what I'm going to do yet - You are 1st on my list when I decide!

BART


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## Barto (Jul 7, 2022)

Anyone have a photo of the OG Kickstand on the 37 Sep?  Also looking for Photos of an OG Paint bike!  

Thx,
BART


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## mrg (Jul 7, 2022)

Seems like I've seen a few OG bikes here over the yrs but the search here is a joke, sometimes I can find something easier on the cabe searching google!


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## Freqman1 (Jul 8, 2022)

From Dave’s site http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle816


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## Barto (Jul 8, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> From Dave’s site http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle816



Perfect, thanks Shawn - Some good shots, should help with my questions!!

BART


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## bergarabians (Jul 8, 2022)

Barto said:


> Hey Mark,
> 
> I've not yet 100% decided what I'm going to do yet - You are 1st on my list when I decide!
> 
> BART



Thanks, just let me know. I appreciate it.


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## Barto (Jul 9, 2022)

I checked out Dave’s photos - great shots, answered some questions!!
Didn’t get a good shot of the bars or kick stand! 
Thx,
Bart


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## Barto (Aug 12, 2022)

37 Zep Owners, is this the correct kickstand????
Thx,
Bart


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## mrg (Aug 12, 2022)

I would say the square stock version, think the round stock came out a couple of years later.


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## Barto (Aug 12, 2022)

Ahhhhh, I know what you mean, I’ve seen them!  
thx MRG!!  
I also noticed on the 1st catalog page has an illustration of the horn button screws - I have this style and was told it was an earlier version!  The second version are what I’ll call standard horizontal screw pattern!

Bart


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## Barto (Aug 24, 2022)

@mrg & @Freqman1,
These fenders are being offered as prewar Rollfast’. I notice there are no drop stand stops (like a 1938 Hawthorne).  Are these the same fenders as on a 1937 Snyder built Zep??

I’m suspicious as I thought the fender brackets should be flat!


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## WetDogGraphix (Aug 24, 2022)

Barto said:


> @mrg & @Freqman1,
> These fenders are being offered as prewar Rollfast’. I notice there are no drop stand stops (like a 1938 Hawthorne).  Are these the same fenders as on a 1937 Snyder built Zep??
> 
> I’m suspicious as I thought the fender brackets should be flat!
> View attachment 1684878View attachment 1684878



I would think flat braces also...


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## mrg (Aug 24, 2022)

Flat braces & duck tail on both.


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## WetDogGraphix (Aug 24, 2022)

Like these, from @eddie_bravo


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## Barto (Aug 24, 2022)

WetDogGraphix said:


> Like these, from @eddie_bravo
> 
> View attachment 1684925



1936, nice!!!


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## Barto (Nov 9, 2022)

Let’s talk headlights!  I’ve seen two different styled Headlights for Zeps, with and without tail fins.  I’ve seen photos of both mounted on Zeps that I can only assume both are correct?? 
Photos are of my Zep and a Red Finned version!

thoughts?
Bart


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