# It rides nice



## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 18, 2008)

I guess this is a Roadmaster of the 1934 or 1935 vintage
did it come with these bars?
What in the world is the brass thing for???
It is kind of like a nametag thing.
The fender is embossed for it, weird.
















and what is this weird little hook thing on the back of the fork crown??

Does anybody have a catalog?? 

I am dying to see what this is supposed to look like


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## RMS37 (Dec 18, 2008)

Your bike was made by the Cleveland Welding Company (house brand Roadmaster) for Firestone in 1937. The clip built into the front fender is a Firestone exclusive designed to hold three letters representing the owner’s initials. Cleveland Welding produced similar frames as early as 1935 but yours has the 1937 chainring, chain guard, and ridged gothic fenders which were all introduced in 1937. 

The hole in the front fender was for a headlight which was either a Delta Silver Ray or a Delta Hornlight, probably the latter considering the date. Batteries would have been held in a battery tube mounted on the down tube as CWC never produced a tank that its that frame.

The bike may have originally been fitted with the standard 1937 CWC rack.

The “Flying V” fork is the standard fork that CWC used on their bikes from the earliest models up through 1937 (there are also variations without the truss rod supports). The fork was used on standard models in 1937 and the Swan truss fork, introduced that year was used on deluxe and supreme models. The tang off the back of the fork may be only a decoration or it may be there to intersect the pin on the optional lock that mounted to the downtube.

I expect the serial number is a B followed by five numbers.

I'll also note that the stem is a CWC exclusive offered in 1937 and 1938.

I'm not sure if the bars are original or not. I would not expect the aero grips that early.

Phil


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 18, 2008)

here is a copy of the 1937 Spring and Summer Firestone catalogue, sadly I don't see a bike like yours in it.
Scott


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 18, 2008)

*RMS37 Rulz*

Thanks so much!!  The serial number does start w/ a B followed by five numbers.  

A plate for my monogram!!!!  That is so AWESOME

Seriously I think I hurt myself turning it over to read the number,
this thing weighs about 120 pounds. Probably why it rides so smooth.

Is the Morrow rear hub original? I know on some bike makers they were optional, but not usually standard.


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 18, 2008)

here's the 1937-38 Fall Winter Firestone catalogue, again I don't see yours.
Scott


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I checked 1936 which doesn't have your bike and 1939 also no go. The initial holders were used only in 1937 and 1938 by Firestone. It is a slim possibility that the bike is simply a model that, for whatever reason, is not in the catalogue, or that someone else used the initial holders. Firestones are usually Huffmans and Colsons in these years, and yours is clearly neither of these. If you figure out the mystery let us know.
Scott


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## RMS37 (Dec 18, 2008)

I have seen Cleveland Welding bikes from that period with either New Departure or Morrow rear hubs so your rear hub could be original to the bike. The date stamp on the hub will date the hub and show if it is date-appropriate to the bike. Conversely the hub date may help pin down when the bike was assembled.

Are there any signs of original paint hiding under the black?  I would expect a color with a second color for head darts, which is the standard CWC paint pattern for these bikes. 

I have also noticed that bare CWC frames are among the heaviest; their fenders are also stamped from thicker steel than many of their contemporaries.

Over the years I have seen several of these frames turn up with the initial holder fenders. Catalog documentation is great but it is generally just a snapshot of what a company offered in total. Distributors where often looking for, and trying out arrangements with new suppliers to increase their options and profits. Some of these deals were smaller batches that never made the catalogs (A good example is the special curved tube Westfield Elgins which were produced in reasonably large numbers but never shown in the consumer catalogs).

My conjecture is that Firestone cut a deal with CWC for bikes in 1937 and asked for the special front fenders to align with this special feature used on the rest of their line. CWC obliged, the fenders are not generic, they are CWC stampings with the letter tray divot pressed into the front.  At the time CWC was expanding their market and experimenting more broadly than in later years. CWC actually pressed some fenders specially for mounting defender taillights and hornlight bases at this time. 

The ?B? serial number generally equates with 1937, a small number would be early in the year and a large number would probably be late summer 1937, I believe the C series bike production started before the end of 1937.

I?ll go a bit further in conjecture and say that if the serial number is low it probably means that CWC approached Firestone early in 1937 and offered to build bikes with fenders to their pattern. If the serial number is high it might mean that Firestone was able to get a good deal on overstocked frames and special fenders as CWC moved on to the next version of the frame with the more widely spaced top tubes and an optional tank.

Either way (or whatever actually happened) enough of these bikes have appeared that I have no doubt that CWC did manufacture these bikes for Firestone. It also appears that the contract was short lived and perhaps limited to this one model. (Any girl?s variants out there?) 

Phil


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 18, 2008)

*weird*

Well I am going to measure the holes for the headbadge I guess.

I do not know where to go from there

I guess I am glad that the bike has some uniqueness to it.

However this is gonna drive me nuts.

Thanks you guys!

Shane


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 18, 2008)

*Firestoned*

B   72200

The color appears to have been green originally.

There are indentations on the fender in front and back of the light mount.  Does this jive with the light that you mentioned before, Phil?

What about a badge?  I thought the Huffman made Firestones said Huffman on them.


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## old hotrod (Dec 18, 2008)

Like Phil said, it is a CWC bike and could have any of a million badges...mine says "Speed".
http://www.flickr.com/photos/david-quickpic/2510588316/in/set-72157602356066779/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/david-quickpic/2510586702/in/set-72157602356066779/


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 19, 2008)

*badger*

I think that the badge would be likely to say Firestone,  Hotrod
However, having a badge that says speed is pretty cool.

I have a bit of an idea how to do the paint now,thanks

Shane


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 19, 2008)

to my knowledge, Firestone never used Cleveland welding bikes. either the fenders have been changed at some time or some other vendors used the initials holder. I'm guessing the fenders came off a Colson Firestone somewhere along the way as they don't look like Huffman to me.
the catalogues, as has been pointed out, don't always reflect all models offered but to suggest that Firestone used a manufacturer they never used is too far a stretch, most catalogue discrepancies are things like promotional models or maybe trim changes, Marc's Firestone Twin-Flex is a perfect example, it has the Huffman paint scheme rather than the Firestone scheme but it is still a bike that Firestone used. want to know for sure? try to put a Firestone badge on it, if the holes line up you're in if not try something more Cleveland Welding traditional. on Huffmans the holes are approximately 2 1/8" apart, I believe most Cleveland badges are larger.
Scott


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 19, 2008)

The headbadge holes are just under 2 1/4 inches apart.

The fenders are original to the bike there is not a notch in the rear fender brace like some later CWC frames but the fenders were stamped with a flat space where it mounts to the frame, I'm 99% sure they came with the bike.  Did colsons ever produce bikes with peaked fenders?  I have seen them on Elgins, Monarks and of course CWC bikes.

Thanks 
Shane


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## JRE (Dec 19, 2008)

Yea the prewar colsons had peaked fenders.


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## RMS37 (Dec 19, 2008)

Colson used several ridged gothic fenders but they are not the same pressing or cut as CWC fenders. I have a front fender in my collection like the one on Shane?s bike and it is identical to other 1937 CWC fenders with the addition of the letter tray. 

I measured some badges this morning. A typical CWC Roadmaster badge has vertical holes spaced 2 7/8? on center. I measured two Firestone badges, a Fleetwood archer badge and a Firestone Flying Ace badge. Each of those has an on center spacing of 2 3/16?. The Fleetwood archer badge I have only says Fleetwood, there is no additional text connecting the badge with Huffman or Firestone. The later Flying Ace badge says Firestone but again does not credit the manufacturer.

In my experience early CWC frames appear with a wider variety of badges than the later frames. This leads me to believe that in the early years CWC was selling product in smaller batches to a wider range of distributors. Perhaps after relationships were developed with larger distributors it was easier to sell to them in volume and focus less on smaller contracts.

With respect to Scott?s comments, I think it is important as a bicycle historian to be able to be both skeptical and open minded when assessing and addressing anomalies in the vintage bicycle world. Without a balance of these two approaches, things will get by you.  I?m sure his knowledge, just like mine, of who sold to and what was sold by Firestone is based on both literature and personal observations. Without the luxury of being a fly on the wall when bicycle purchasing decisions were made in the day, no one can know for certain everything that transpired. Considering how many companies did build for Firestone I don?t believe it is that much of a stretch to allow that CWC may have been one of them.

Although Scott?s opinion is that CWC-Firestones don?t exist, the evidence I have seen leads me to the opinion that some CWC built bicycles were sold by Firestone in 1937. In my opinion it is the best explanation for the existence of CWC pattern letter tray front fenders appearing on CWC built bicycles. 

Back to badging; if CWC made bikes for Firestone it is within the realm of possibility that they may have also produced a badge for them. Since your bike arrived badgeless it is open speculation at this point on what originally sat there. Hopefully another example will turn up with the badge in place.

Phil


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just saying that if we assume anything is possible then I can claim that I have a 1935 Firestone Aerocycle, or an Elgin Phantom. truly we need to keep an open mind but also a bit of reason is required. if another verifiable CWC Firestone is found then we'll know, until then I am very sceptical that this bike is indeed a Firestone. as a Huffman collector, I have seen my fair share of Firestones, and I have Firestone as one of my automatic searches on ebay. if anything Firestone comes up I get an e-mail. I have collected almost all the Firestone catalogs. I have not, in 10+ years of looking, seen one bike made by CWC badged as a Firestone.
all this aside the bike is truly fabulous, I love the early paralell bar bikes, it's sad they didn't make tham for a few more years.
and thanks Phil, it's nice to have someone to bounce ideas off of and don't be afraid to be outspoken, I'm wrong as often as not.
if we're not afraid of stepping on toes, we'll get this sorted out
Scott


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 19, 2008)

*Yessssss*

Thanks Bender!

Maybe Easywind can scrounge up a headbadge picture.
Do you remember if it had the letter tray on the fender?


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 19, 2008)

Ok, I'm throwing away all my Firestone catalogues and looking for a rare Firestone Aerocycle!:eek:
woo, hoo! here's a photo of my rare Huffman made Schwinn!





Scott


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 19, 2008)

Not so fast Scott.

I emailed Eazywind and he says that the frame on Ebay did not have a badge.  

I also contacted the guy that I got the bike from, it is doubtful that he will be able to come up with an answer either,  he bought it and some other bikes from a high school kid who gets a few bikes at a time from his grandfathers collection.  He will let me know if the guy shows up with a handful of headbadges.

Back to the Ebay bike there are differences in the fork (missing tang),  the rear fender brace has the notch for the fender peak so they may be different years  Hmmm I should have asked Eazywind for the serial number.

so all I know is that I don't know
   as usual

Shane


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## RMS37 (Dec 20, 2008)

The frame that eazywind has listed on eBay is a CWC frame and crank with a Colson fork transplant. It appears that the bike had a quick overall dark red repaint sometime in antiquity that may have been painted over the headbadge. The remaining white paint where the headbadge sat is likely the remains of a white head and darts from the original paint job. The outline of the badge looks similar to a Fleetwood archer badge. Even if the badge can?t be found the measurement of the badge hole spacing might be useful. 

In the carport pictures, the bike has its fenders, did these end up with easywind?

Phil


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 20, 2008)

well I said that the holes were just under 2 1/4"
I re-measured and they are 2 3/16"

Even if it is a CWC made Firestone
it is not very likely that I can come up with a headbadge for it.

looked through some old threads and I guess that
is the kind of thing that people make their winter project.

I'm lucky that it survived the shipping period.
Packed great thanks to the seller,
but UPS managed to actually break the dropstand.
In two pieces!!!!!              Broke it!

I hate UPS they have really damaged our bikes before!!
Wish we could organize  a boycott ...Bike-ott.
My bikes roll with FedEx


Shane


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 20, 2008)

the red bike Easywind has was a frankenbike and was repainted and mixed parts so I'm still sceptical about it. I'm not saying it's not possible just that I'm pretty sceptical about it and think that this is the right approach. also my skepticism has sparked quite a bit of searching so let's see if anything else pops up.
Scott
the real mystery is why is a person who is sceptical is a skeptic?


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Dec 21, 2008)

*Light 'Em Up!!*

The bike on Ebay is a Frankenbike but I zoomed in on the bike in the carport, and could see that it did have a letter tray on the front fender.

The light on that fender ended up for sale.

So..........

I bought it 'cause it has the two raised spots fitting into the indentations pressed into my fender.

That is a lie, my wife actually bought me the light.

So................    That is my update.

Wish I could have an Avatar



Regards
Shane


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 21, 2008)

Strings-n-Spokes said:


> The bike on Ebay is a Frankenbike but I zoomed in on the bike in the carport, and could see that it did have a letter tray on the front fender.
> 
> The light on that fender ended up for sale.
> 
> ...



the bike was actually hanging in Mikes garage and is or was the same one on ebay though I'm not sure why Marc pulled it apart to sell it. the photo of the bike in the garage is one I took though I never got around to really examining the bike closely. Mike says the bike came with the Fleetwood badge but whether it came with it originally I don't know. it would be interesting to think that Cleveland Welding built bikes for Firestone and they were never aknowledged in any catalogue, and there seem to be no really undisputible bikes around to show. one of my doubts is due to the fact that Firestone had contracts with Huffman and Colson to obtain bikes at a bulk discount, why would they get any from Cleveland especially there would be nothing gained by doing so as the bike is rather unremarkable (no offence, you know what I mean, no tank no Supreme no rare obscure accessories, etc.). if they made a deal for a limited number of 1937 Supremes, or some other deluxe bike for some promotion but to get a small number of unadvertised plain bikes just doesn't make sense when both of the companies they usually used had comparable models which their bulk buys should have given them an advantage in getting cheaper. to me you should contact Marc and see if you can get all the parts that go with that bike and have both bikes. you would be better able to see if they are actually the same or very different. also which parts are correct with the bikes. I had talked to Mike about getting the bike when he started thinking about selling all his bikes but never made a deal. I always assumed it to be a Colson and never looked too closely. I currently have one 1936 Firestone Standard model, one 1937 Firestone Supreme, one 1938 Firestone Supreme Twin-Flex, one 1939 Firestone Supreme Twin-Flex and one 1939 Firestone Flying Ace, I also have a 1942 Firestone Pilot, and a 1948 Firestone Cruiser. I had a 1939 Firestone Warrior which I sold to a member of the cabe here, and it was the only non Huffman Firestone I have had. there have been several other Firestone bikes I've been able to crawl all over  but again most all of them were Huffmans. really if you want to collect Huffmans you'd better get used to having Firestones as by a huge margin the lions share of prewar Huffmans are Firestones. I guess I should have taken a more keen interest in documenting the red bike but I'm really only into Firestones only as far as they are related to Huffmans I wish someone wanted to take an interest in Firestones and their documentation, I would gladly let them be the expert and I would contentedly continue with Huffman stuff though there are already experts who tend to be very quiet which makes people think because I like to talk about them that I think myself some kind of expert, which I don't.

also I tried to see if as a moderator I could put in an avatar for someone and it won't let me.
Scott


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## Classicriders (Dec 21, 2008)

A friend of mine had an original CWC girls Firestone with the Firestone badge.  There is no doubt in my mind that CWC made these models for Firestone for a short period of time.
I have mentioned htis before, but it is worth repeating.  If you take a prewar Monark blister tank and mount it to a Schwinn DX, it fits like a glove, perfect!  Now, these were two completely different manufacturers, yet the tanks on these to bikes are interchangeable.  How can that be?
I make this point to illustrate just one of the many anomalies that are out there in the vintage bicycle world.  
I forget which of my friend it is, but they had a 36 Snyder built Zep style moto-balloon bike with two different tank halves, but the entire bike was original paint.  One half has horizontal horn gills and the other half had vertical horn gills.  Now, many over the years believed that the horizontal gills were Snyder while the vertical gills were CWC?  
There are several more examples I could give, but by now I think I have illustrated my point.  No matter how many years, or how much literature you have, there is always bound to be something that pops up that throws us back and forces us to rethink what we know, or at least what we thought we knew.


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## Classicriders (Dec 21, 2008)

_one of my doubts is due to the fact that Firestone had contracts with Huffman and Colson to obtain bikes at a bulk discount, _

How do you know they had "contracts"?  For many years I assumed that this was how they operated back in the day.  That manufacturers and retailers had contracts with each other.  In reality, this was very seldom the case.
Years ago I had the good fortune of interviewing a former bicycle manufacturing president and I asked him that very question.  he said that they never had a contract with any retailer.  The retailers would simply place orders, in fact, there are some catalogs that show two different manufactured bicycles being sold by the same retailer.  depending on which part of the country you lived in, one manufactured version would be offered in one area, while a second version was offered in another area.
I'm not saying that Firestone never had a "contract" with Huffman or Colson, as I have never talked with a former employee of those companies, nor have I ever seen anything in literature to verify that claim.  For that matter, I have never heard or read anything that suggested they ever DID have a "contract".
Please keep in mind that I am not trying to start aan argument, far from it, rather attempting to contribute healthy context to this topic.


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 21, 2008)

oh sure, you're not trying to start an argument
but seriously, maybe contract may not be the idea I was trying to confer, lets say they had a history with Huffman and Colson which lasted for years and seemed exclusive for many years. the point being Huffman would have provided these simple budget bikes to keep Firestone happy as a simple courtesy if for no official reason. I would feel safe in saying there was if nothing else a kind of tacit understanding between gentlemen as it were. it also gave to a look of consistency in the line-up not to offer the same exact bike which could be had down the street. You'll probably never see a Huffman made B.F.Goodrich bike, it was understood that it would be a Schwinn when you got there, it was what the public expected. who knows, I'm just a sceptic when it comes to things like this. it keeps people from getting away with too much.:o
I agree I am enjoying discussing this interesting riddle bike.
Scott


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## ColsonTwinbar (Dec 21, 2008)

Could it have had a "Pilot" badge, I have seen a few early CWC bikes with those, but never the exact one you have. I have 3 bikes just like yours, one has a Clipper badge and the other two have brass roadmaster badges.


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## Cole Lower (Dec 31, 2008)

*hi*

how much do you want for it


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## joecalvert1 (Mar 28, 2009)

*Need Help ID'ing this bike*

Any out there help ID this bike,  Ser # on the bottom of the crank is P 500764
there is a # 8  and a letter  E  &  D also but not part of the serial # the crank has H-D on it in 3 places around the sprocket ther also is a  AS 35 cast on to the crank itself.  the distance between the pins on the head badge is 2 1/2 "  wanting to do this bike in military colors for reenacting and want to make sure its proper era.
any help greatly appreciated. the bike is pretty complete, and with the help of another reenactor I have the seat. just needs some TLC and a makeover.


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## kris Nelson (Jun 26, 2017)

Strings-n-Spokes said:


> well I said that the holes were just under 2 1/4"
> I re-measured and they are 2 3/16"
> 
> Even if it is a CWC made Firestone
> ...





Hi


Strings-n-Spokes said:


> *badger*
> 
> I think that the badge would be likely to say Firestone,  Hotrod
> However, having a badge that says speed is pretty cool.
> ...



Hi Folks,
 I also have one of these bikes like the black one above; Fleetwood (archer) head badge, 2 3/16" rivet spacing. Owner initial tag slot in front fender, and torpedo headlight. SS# B57--- . 9 hole adjustable rack, Morrow rear hub, red with white diamond accents. I need someone with a terd grade edumakation to post photos for me. Was there a horn tank for this frame?? Oop's, RMS37 explained the answer 'no' to this question earlier, thanks!
Kris


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## CWCMAN (Jun 26, 2017)

Kris, I sent you a private message.

Check the upper right corner of this page (envelope icon)


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## 37fleetwood (Jun 26, 2017)

there are several threads on these bikes. do a search for the other ones, there's more info out there, this thread is very old.


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## CWCMAN (Jun 26, 2017)

Contact me Kris, I'll help you out no problem.


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## Krakatoa (Jun 26, 2017)




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