# Some threads get attention, some don't



## Larmo63 (Oct 24, 2010)

Why is it that some topic/threads go on and on and I can't seem to get anyone to comment, (even if you hate them,) about some old bikes I wanted some information on. There seems to be a bit of clickishness here. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## MartyW (Oct 24, 2010)

I think that it may have a lot to do with the title the more interesting it sounds the better the chances someone will open it. It may even have something to do with the actual poster , but I never seem to take that in to account when I open a thread.
There is always going to be a little clickishness that goes on, but I do not think that it is too bad here. I generally just scan the posts and add to my collection. I'm not the word smith that some are so I just mainly read and buy.
I just try to remember that I do this for a hobby and try to keep it as stress free as possible.
Just my .02


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## Heledir (Oct 24, 2010)

I see the same thing. I'll have threads trying to get information and get literally nothing, it's kind of disappointing actually


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## old hotrod (Oct 24, 2010)

Well, I for one would rather not post when I am in doubt and wait for others with more or better info...and it has nothing to do with a clique...did ya ever think that maybe sometimes, people may not know the answers to your questions?


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## militarymonark (Oct 24, 2010)

I know when i started here a lot of the times I had to get some information myself by internet searching etc or specifically asking certain members. LOL i get asked all the time just randomly by members about a bike and I'll do the leg work in finding out the info if I dont know it, but the key thing is to post up what you think it is after you found some info or just a wild guess also when pictures aren't added to the post people look them over or ask for pictures. Take for example kyle when he posted about his military bikes he gave his opinion of what it was and what the person who he purchased them from told him what they were. Once he showed pictures the posts exploded and everyone put in their idea of what it was and what its worth he had 3 pages and 2 threads lol. Also there are more middleweight bikes showing up and a lot of people on the forum are balloon tire oriented and might not know the info on the bike just the fact that its a 60's made by huffy, murray, schwinn, or some other make unless someone owned one specifically and had that information. I had a member contact me about a hawthorne from the 60's. I happened to have the same bike and gave him the information I knew about it and that information was me searching around for about 3 weeks because no one had any information on year, missing parts and such. Prob to get in the information you want is three key things to post up. 1) give it a catchy title (look around and see what the most commented thread's titles are) 2) pictures, pictures, pictures. The more you give the better information you have. Generally take pictures of chainguard or chain ring side, head badge (if not missing), and serial number (serial numbers usually only pin point a year). 3) the information you know. what you have seen or researched, what the person who you bought the bike from told you.


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## twowheelfan (Oct 24, 2010)

i found out that if you post your opinion, even if in doubt, others will chime in and scrutinize your "expert opinion" they correct you, you learn something that you forgot or never knew, and the poster gets thier info!


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## Larmo63 (Oct 24, 2010)

I have asked about my Hawthornes in Pm's and on forums. They are cool pre war balloon bikes, I just want to know the basics. (year, model name?) How many time can you ask the same (dumb?) questions? There is an expert here that knows Hawthorne very well and I can't seem to get any response. I showered, shaved and even put on deodorant. Nothing has worked.


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## Larmo63 (Oct 24, 2010)

I posted pictures, (hey it made me learn how to use Photobucket at least?) serial numbers, and I was witty too. Next time my title will be: "Naked Women Riding Old Hawthorne Bicycles!!!" Then I'll sneak in the questions; by the way guys, what year.......


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## Tidewater (Oct 25, 2010)

Larmo63,
You certainly cannot take it personally. If I had the knowledge I would love to help, alas my current knowledge is specific to the bikes that I own, most of which are rusting hulks
from the 60's and worse mostly middleweight bikes.

I've found that most of my posts get an answer of one sort or another and that for the most part there is enough information provided in those responses that with some research I can collect about all of the information that I needed to know. 

There are a couple of posters I've found to be extremely helpful and kind regardless of how worthless my next "find" is to the collector community. I haven't had a bad experience here in any way. There are a bunch of bikes out there that there just isn't much concrete information available on, you happen to own a couple of those bikes. 

Looking forward to the naked ladies post, I like bikes and I like naked ladies even more.


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## tDuctape (Oct 25, 2010)

I believe the best solution is to have your own cable television show. 

Seriously though,
 I lurk here a bit because you all know quite a lot about old bikes and usually have answers to my specific  questions. Since Mountainbikes are more my passion and what I know, here on the cabe, I tend to be more of a listener. when I see a collector post up on my MTB site a question more suited for this forum, I usually pm them a message to inquire over here on the cabe. When I do post up looking for information here, I try to include an on topic picture. I always appreciate the information this site has to offer. 
T


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## bricycle (Oct 25, 2010)

...not a "clicker" just a picker!...  I have a Hawthorne, but I know pretty much zip about them. bri


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## OldRider (Oct 25, 2010)

A few times I went out on a limb and started threads on my Canadian bikes, a few times I got responses, a few times I did not. My friends here don't give out wrong information intentionally, and if they don't know they don't know, and you end up with no responses. I'd rather have that then some guy spouting off about things that aren't accurate


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## Larmo63 (Oct 25, 2010)

Maybe I just want to be one of the cool guys like all of you? And, how do you put a "profile picture" up with your posts?


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## byrdmeister (Oct 25, 2010)

O.K. Larmo63.  I would have said that her hairstyle indicated that she was somewhere between 45-50 years of age.  However, when I  rolled her over the second time in bed she slapped the @#$% out of me and said I was perverted.  Thanks alot!!!!!!!!!  Seriously, I am new here and have absolutely no clue on how to help you.  However, I can tell you that there are some folks here that must have produced some of these bicycles as much info. as they have.  I have found everyone to be cordial and helpful on this website and I bet that you will have the info. that you are looking for in the near future.  In the meantime, I shall keep the ice pack on my eye!!!!!!!!


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## 37fleetwood (Oct 25, 2010)

Larmo63 said:


> Maybe I just want to be one of the cool guys like all of you? And, how do you put a "profile picture" up with your posts?



 well, congratulations! this thread is getting a lot of attention. now that you're one of the cool guys what are you going to do?


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## bricycle (Oct 25, 2010)

...no one's ever called me a "cool" guy before... must be you OTHER guys.


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## Larmo63 (Oct 25, 2010)

That's it! A brilliant idea! I'm starting my own cable television show about vintage bicycles, with naked ladies on vintage bikes! I'll be the "cool" guy hosting it too. (Do you think it may have to be on late night in some markets?) Maybe Phil would finally tell us all what year my freaking dumbass Hawthornes are!!??!!


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## Heledir (Oct 25, 2010)

actually a cable television show all about vintage bicycles would be kick ass...


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## Tidewater (Oct 25, 2010)

> ...no one's ever called me a "cool" guy before... must be you OTHER guys.




My bride thinks I'm pretty fly.

I like the show idea too. 
CABE'S WORLD, CABE'S WORLD, PEDAL TIME, EXCELLENT. WOOWOOWOOWOO.


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## Larmo63 (Oct 25, 2010)

No, we would get more viewers with a title like "Naked Women On Vintage Bicycles!" (Don't you think?)


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## bentwoody66 (Oct 26, 2010)

It could be just like the ending segment on the "Man Show" a while back. 15 minute of talking then on to the "girls jumping on trampolines" but change it to "girls in short skirts riding bikes" or something to that effect. You could even have the Cyclone Coasters sitting at the corner bistro chugging beers like the old uncle on that show as the girls ride by.


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## Adamtinkerer (Oct 26, 2010)

The reason you're not getting a bunch of responses on your Hawthornes is that there's NO serial number info on Snyder built Bikes. None. The factory closed in the mid 70s, and who knows what happened to their files. They did sell their tooling to Emory in Florida. Unless you have a complete bike with original paint and graphics that you can match to a specific year catalgog page, or an original color that was only available certain years, nailing down a specific year just isn't possible. From your original post, it sounds like you've already talked to Phil, who knows more about these than almost anybody else here.


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## Larmo63 (Oct 26, 2010)

Phil did say he would get back to me, but I haven't heard. Both bikes are original paint, but yes they are Snyder bikes. I will say that they ARE well made machines. Maybe even better than the CWC bikes of the same or near vintage. I'm guessing that they are '41-'42. The serial numbers both start with "04", maybe that means they are from 1940? Who knows, who cares. I just fiddle with them and ride them.


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## 37fleetwood (Oct 26, 2010)

bentwoody66 said:


> It could be just like the ending segment on the "Man Show" a while back. 15 minute of talking then on to the "girls jumping on trampolines" but change it to "girls in short skirts riding bikes" or something to that effect. You could even have the Cyclone Coasters sitting at the corner bistro chugging beers like the old uncle on that show as the girls ride by.



 if you have us guys from Cyclone Coaster it would look more like a scene from Benny Hill show where we're chasing some girl around.


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## Larmo63 (Oct 27, 2010)

Okay, there really IS a reality show in there somewhere involving vintage bicycles and disrobed women! Let me put on my thinking cap? Hmmm......


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## 55ColumbiaBuilt (Oct 27, 2010)

Larmo63 said:


> ......... I showered, shaved and even put on deodorant. Nothing has worked.





It's your breath...you need to go brush your teeth!


HaHaHa!!!   Sorry, I couldn't help it!  Just Kidding!

(Although I am surprised nobody put it out there earlier!)


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## kyle (Oct 28, 2010)

thanks for mentioning me...     That was sarcasm over yonder..  I guess the name ''kyle'' is forever black listed from this f*uckin site. Whatever


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## Tidewater (Oct 28, 2010)

Someone a little edgy? Man, do the right thing and self-edit that last post. 
I've read your submissions to the forum. Undoubtedly, your first post wasn't received well. When I read the original I too went to theliberator and had the same experience that Militarymonark had. I noticed that he found the correct site that you originally referred to and posted a thread regarding it. It's too easy to get your feathers ruffled and respond while still bristling. Who hasn't done it? I think you read the last post regarding your other thread as an insult
when it should have been looked at objectively. Your thread was a recent prime example related directly to this post topic. 
Anyway, from the outside looking in; I think your first post was an unfortunate and unintentional bad start to the forum, it happens... The following accusatory posts did not help much but I can kinda understand it, but agree that you were out of line. 
Me personally, I want to be a positive to the forum, I think that you do too. 

Do what you want to do, if it were me I would apologize to the forum and go for the fresh start. 

Just my thoughts, 
Tidewater


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## Adamtinkerer (Oct 28, 2010)

Larmo63 said:


> Phil did say he would get back to me, but I haven't heard. Both bikes are original paint, but yes they are Snyder bikes. I will say that they ARE well made machines. Maybe even better than the CWC bikes of the same or near vintage. I'm guessing that they are '41-'42. The serial numbers both start with "04", maybe that means they are from 1940? Who knows, who cares. I just fiddle with them and ride them.




Actually, I recall Phil saying exactly that, the 04 indicates 1940. Just joggled my memory, I should write that down!


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## Larmo63 (Oct 28, 2010)

It does make sense. If rms37 would just check in, we might all be enlightened??????????????


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## 37fleetwood (Oct 28, 2010)

Sometimes it's easy to get the impression that the guys with the knowledge somehow owe the information they possess to the community, it's also easy to get the impression that the people who are relying on you for the information are being too demanding.
Either way maybe a more patient approach might have a greater yield. I immagine Phil is a busy guy and may get to you when he can.


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## RMS37 (Oct 29, 2010)

Thanks, 37Fleetwood, for your observations, which I think are well metered and apt, and thanks to everyone else who has taken a moderational tone here. 

Several different individual threads seem to have migrated to this thread and it makes me feel like I am descending the grand staircase into a party already in full swing with this post. I hope that this won’t end up being like one of those CSI opening party scenes were someone always ends up dead.

Larmo63 first contacted me on the Ratrod site with questions about his blue Hawthorne. I’m posting my response to his initial questions, dated Sept 27 here, first because this seems to be the thread that the conversation about the bike built and, re above, this seems to be the place to be.

_Hi Lawrence,_

_I received your emails but I have been deluged with information requests in the past few weeks and have not been able to find the time to adequately answer your questions along with many others. While your questions are generally straight forward, some of the answers are not and require some involved background explanations for clarity, I will try to compose something to that end when I get a chance but I will try to clarify a couple of things now without going in too deep._

_First, your bike is not a Hawthorne All American. The AA is a special model and quite rare, comments made about it may or may not reflect on lesser model Hawthornes. Your bike is one of the standard offerings and doesn't really have a unique model name. Many Hawthornes were just referred to as equipped or unequipped models._

_Your bike was produced between the beginning of 1940 and the end of 1941. The throwing star chainring was not offered until 1940 and the similar 1942 models featured curved down tubes._

_The frame on your bike is a Snyder frame and the fork is a Cleveland Welding fork. This is a typical and original configuration. To my mind, the frame is the key component of any bicycle and the basis for attribution of manufacture._

_The fenders and braces are the type (probably McCauley made) used on Montgomery Ward bicycles that used Snyder frames. Montgomery Ward bicycles with Cleveland Welding frames virtually all used standard CWC pattern fenders and braces._

_Your bike as it sits appears to be quite original and correct with the exception of the drop stand, which is a braced CWC item. The braced units were not still in use at the time this bike was made and the bike would have come with a Snyder pattern drop stand, unbraced and I believe lighter weight._

_You asked about the headlight and a front load Delta torpedo would be correct which is what it looks like you have._

_Congratulations on finding the tank; there are several different tanks that were used on Hawthornes at that time and you found the correct one for your frame. Examining your bike closely to see evidence that it had a tank may disclose if one was originally fitted. More bikes of your type were sold without tanks than with. _

_I’d also note that your bike is in very nice condition and most collectors today would not restore a bike in such good condition. This leaves you with the decision of what to do with the poor condition tank. With skill, it could be restored and distressed to match the bike but “distrestoration” requires more skill than restoration._

_As for the information about discerning the manufacturer of a Hawthorne by the shape of the upper rear fender bridge, in my experience all prewar CWC produced frames have straight tubular bridges. If the bridge is arched then the frame was not made by CWC. This is not to say that all straight-bridged frames are CWC or that all arched bridges are Snyder built frames. Monark also produced bicycles for Montgomery Ward and the steel models used an arched bridge. Besides the bridge, there are numerous other areas to look at to differentiate CWC and Snyder frames and in reality once, you have looked at enough of them you can tell from 20 feet without needing to check out the fine details._

_I’m not sure this answers all your questions and as I said I haven’t given all the background for my answers but I hope this covers much of what you are trying to find out, let me know if this helps and if I can clarify specific point further for you._

_Best,_

_Phil_

Since my reply, Larmo63 has posted his bike along with the similar eBay sourced maroon bike (the tank congrats mentioned above) on the CABE and reiterated some of the questions, which I believe I answered in the above PM along with some additional questions that I am currently researching. I have also received two PM’s here asking for these answers and I have replied that I will get to them as I have time.

With all that as background I will get to the main point of my post: I have been exceedingly busy on several fronts in the last few months. I always look forward to packing up at the end of the day at LeMay because that should signal the beginning of a bit of downtime for me to recharge. I should also know better because the perceived void always fills itself quite quickly and this year along with the general after event wrap up I have been trying to get the Bluebird door repop project finished and to make headway on a couple of larger bicycle history research projects. On top of the things I choose to do, life occasionally breaks in with ideas of its own. Last weekend I put in close to twenty hours of overtime at my day job to meet a deadline then, on Wednesday, received 24 hours notice from my rented shop space that they would be upgrading the lighting and I needed to move 8 tons of stuff 10 feet, overnight to allow access to the fixtures. 

If I tell someone I will respond when I have time, I mean what I say; and if someone truly gets left too long on the back burner I am happy if they step up and alert me to the fact. On the other hand, if someone gets too impatient with my response time, the little Phil with the pitchfork that sits on my left shoulder is likely to suggest I increase the number on that person’s service ticket.

In conclusion, this is meant to be a general service announcement. I want to note that all the private emails I have received from L63 have been friendly and courteous and I fully intend to offer up whatever I can to help sort out the questions he has asked. To that end I have gone through and built a list of those questions, and I have been researching them to the point of building graphic charts to organize the data. (My responses are rarely off the cuff and the more involved answers obviously don’t write themselves.) While I would and do give short quick responses when I can, sometimes an answer needs more background to be worth anything and I also on occasion become enthralled with a particular question for my own education and perhaps overwrite the response.

To offer a carrot at the end of this long post, my research has led me to believe that it is likely that both the Maroon and the Blue Hawthorne were built in 1940. The Maroon bike generally matches a spec to a 1940 model Hawthorne referred to in the catalog under the title “Standard “Tank Model” Hawthorne Bike, _Miracle Values!”_ If you don’t have an All American, a Zep, or a Comet the Hawthorne model names do leave a bit to be desired. The Blue bike is built to a slightly later spec and may be a late 1940 or perhaps early 1941 build/model. The model designation that fits most closely is “Standard “Equipped” Double Bar Hawthorne” which is further described as the “Best Buy” in the medium price field. These model designations follow my thoughts that the blue bike was not originally tank-equipped and thus as a true restoration would not feature one. 

I will also note that neither of the bikes directly appear in the catalogs and much more could be written about that, what I believe is the reason for that, what that opens up for interpretation, and how I draw my conclusions in instances such as these.

I just heard the end of recess bell ring, life calls and I’ll sign off for now with a true apology to everyone who has been backlogged waiting for information from me, and the promise that I’ll post more on this topic when I have finished my investigation. 

Best,

Phil


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## DonChristie (Oct 29, 2010)

Poor Phil, you don't get paid enough!


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## RMS37 (Oct 29, 2010)

Thanks Schwinndoggy, This is probably a good time to ask for a raise!

The other thing I want to note related to dating bicycles and serial number decoding is the following which I am trying to squeeze into a coffee break.....

I have collected quite a few prewar Snyder and Snyder built Hawthorne serial numbers; I have written and posted on this topic elsewhere. With no access to factory documents to accurately date bikes by serial number, we are left to our own devices to try to decode the numbers and draw conclusions based on them. The 04 = 40, 14 = 41 appears consistently on bikes that could very well be 1940 and 1941 models. I have also recorded a few postwar bikes that suggest a similar system may have also been used in the early postwar years. Snyder built bikes that likely date to 1939 and earlier used several other serial number patterns that do not align with this model. 

Every time I have mentioned my observation I have clearly noted that it is an observation and is meant to serve only as a departure point for further research to reach a conclusion which would require logging a lot more numbers and cross referencing a lot more literature. In addition, a research-based conclusion is never full proof and good historians will not allow themselves to slip into stating as fact something that is conjecture. To be fair, I may myself be guilty of this to some degree in my work and my belief in my model for decoding Cleveland Welding serial numbers.

I do believe my observations benefit the hobby in general and I think conjecture is part of what “history” is all about. By “history” I mean the _story_ of what happened which is not necessarily what happened. If my observations start coming back to me stated as fact then it seems that they will be doing more harm than good and I will be inclined to stop publishing them.


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## walter branche (Oct 29, 2010)

Ladies and Gentlemen,a round of applause - also a standing ovation,goes out to  MR. PHIL MARSHALL, or DR. RMS37.  amazing the time effort and consideration he has shown to all the information request ,,..  Also do not forget the long time effort and help from SCOTT fleetwood37,, thanks for making our bicycle history credible


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## slick (Oct 29, 2010)

I think my brain just imploded trying to take in all that knowledge! One new thing to learn a day only please! Wow you guys blow me away!


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## Larmo63 (Oct 29, 2010)

God, I sound like a nagging wife. (never got a Rat Rod Pm, btw) Thanks, for the info.


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## chitown (Oct 29, 2010)

walter branche said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen,a round of applause - also a standing ovation,goes out to  MR. PHIL MARSHALL, or DR. RMS37.  amazing the time effort and consideration he has shown to all the information request ,,..  Also do not forget the long time effort and help from SCOTT fleetwood37,, thanks for making our bicycle history credible




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear


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## Larmo63 (Oct 29, 2010)

Phil is right about the drop stands on both bicycles. They were both missing and were what I could scrounge up. The blue Hawthorne never had a tank fitted, and will be shedding it soon, as the maroon bike is soon getting the full restoration treatment. Why, or better yet, what is it about these bikes that makes me look at one without a tank, or horn tank, and think it doesn't look complete, or that it is missing it's "heart?" (An interesting note; the maroon and red tank has a two rivet "block off" plate where the horn should be and no vents anyway.) The maroon, with red spears and white pinstripes color scheme is a VERY cool combo. The old maroon seems to be more of a brownish maroon. Very "period." I will keep that color combo in the restoration. Should I do a resto bio on this thing? Post a thread? Take suggestions? Another quick question; (nagging wife again,) How do you experts re-attach fender braces correctly after plating the braces and painting the fenders, I mean what rivet gun do you use? I am in awe of SOME of the awesome restorations that have been shown here and on Nostalgic.net websites of restored bikes. Some complain of "over-restoration." I disagree, do it how you want to do it. For instance, the royal blue Hawthorne All-American with the red and white tires is, to me, a knock out. If Wards/Hawthorne could have done them that good, and still made money, they would have. Let the market decide the worth, but do what you want. (I guess?)


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## militarymonark (Oct 29, 2010)

i think your thread has had plenty of attention lol


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## Larmo63 (Oct 29, 2010)

One more thing, "Standard," "equipped," and "double bar" don't sound very sexy. How about "Destroyer," or "Maroon Missile?" Anything other than those names would have been cooler.


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## RMS37 (Oct 30, 2010)

I was afraid my post had prematurely ended the party here on this thread. After posting I noticed it got quiet, the dancing girls packed up and left, and then, just as I had feared, a dead body was found with a fatal brain implosion.

It’s a relief that the party seems to have resumed so I’ll pass my thanks on to those who compliment my posts, grab a drink, and continue to blather on about old bikes to anyone with an ear I can catch.

First, Larmo63, I could can better understand that you felt left in the lurch if you didn’t get my return PM on the rat rod site. I posted it here in it’s entirety but you might go back and see how it got lost. Two features that I like over there regarding PM’s is that you are not cut off at fifty so you don’t end up with a full mailbox, and sent messages are recorded in your outbox until, presumably, they have been opened by the recipient. The message I sent you left my outbox and is now in my sent folder so I presumed you had seen it…You better keep the door locked to your computer room, I think the dancing girl’s are sneaking in and reading and deleting your e-mail! 

Anyway, while I have your ear, you are lucky to have scrounged up two braced stands, in the hobby at large they are less common than un-braced stands and you shouldn’t have too much trouble trading for the correct stand if you want one. I agree with you that the maroon and red bike is the better candidate for a restoration, it is complete and needs help more than the blue bike. It is interesting that the tank has the horn delete blanking plate; a girl’s companion model is currently being offered for sale here on the site and it too has a blanked hole. 

Regarding un-tanked bikes, I agree that the tanks and the other deluxe trim are what these bikes are all about in the collector world but I have come to like the plain tank-less bikes just as well because they represent the reality base line for the period and if you build a collection the plain models are a nice way to frame the more deluxe bikes.

On the topic of “Restoration” (Don’t get me Started!!.... too late) I have come to believe that while, in my mind, the true meaning of the word is to return something to the exact replication of its original condition, the word has been so tossed about and sullied that it has become sort of like the word dude; it can mean just about anything depending on the inflection of the user. Yo! Resto Ray-Shun!

I think over-restoration and under-restoration (who ever says that?) are not restoration, one is customizing and the other is generally refurbishment. In fact, restoration in its purest sense is a mental idea and while the ability to replicate the appearance of an original bike is available to us in hobby, to actually duplicate the processes that were used to apply the paint in an industrial setting using the chemicals of the day are probably not.

With that in mind, the ideal restoration is a target we can hold in our head and each of us may have a different idea of how close the end product comes. As for over and under resto ray-shun; because of the difficulty in achieving the ideal, almost all bikes that are restored have areas that could be considered to be done to a higher visual level than that of the original (though generally that higher level of finish has a lower standard for durability than the original). The same bikes often also have areas that may not be in as good of condition as the original (I have seen over-the-top quality paint on top of a rack and that same paint covering un-restored pitted metal on the bottom of the rack.) 

I agree with you that there is no good reason to complain about over or under restoration unless it is your bike, you paid someone to do it, and they did it wrong. Still it is human nature to compare everything we see with our own ideals and then share our opinions. Whether we like what others do or not, they will ultimately do it their own way and as you point out, when it comes time to sell, the market will have the last word on value.

My carrot at the end of this spiel is that if you are looking for an accurate representation of the original maroon, try to find some on the steerer tube or inside the crank hanger, these are the areas that tend to fade the least. In general I agree with you about period hues, they are often darker and more subtle than modern color choices, but it is also true that old reds seem to lose their color faster than most colors so both reds and maroons tend to darken and brown out with age. The original color was probably fairly vibrant but not loud.  I’d love to see a series of posts on the bike as your restore it and I’m sure that would also build on the popularity you have achieved with this thread!  

Regarding rivets, many of the people restoring bicycles have or have access to old rivet presses that have large enough jaws and adequate pressure to re-rivet fender braces.   

I have to get out the door to move my 8 tons of stuff back to where it was before the light renovation at the shop so I have to split this scene early but one last request before I’m out of here…You were asking about the decal on your seat tube, looking around I have noticed it on several other Hawthorne and Snyder bikes, could you post a close up so I can see it better?

Oh, and it’s not exactly the model name but I like the idea of a “Miracle Value” bike, it puts it in a very ethereal class. Perhaps you could call the bike the “Maroon Miracle” which sounds like a super hero’s ride and you could get a matching cape to wear for the photo-ops! 

Best,

Phil


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## slick (Oct 30, 2010)

Phil, you are most definately the top historian on bikes in my eyes. Your knowledge amazes me. You must have an enormous collection of books, catalogs, and original brochures? It's really cool that we all have someone to go to that has the answers we need. Thanks!


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## Larmo63 (Oct 30, 2010)

When the rusted "Hawthorne boys bicycle, for parts" hulk arrived in San Clemente from Ohio with the hard to find and elusive horn tank, I set about to drag it through the house and out to the garage. Btw, Have you ever noticed; how fun it is to see that bicycle box or package, or any other package for that matter, on your doorstep? It's almost better than owning it for a year! The anticipation! But I digress, I carefully oiled the screws and yanked that tank off quicker than you can say "calf rope!" I proudly installed it on my tankless framed Hawthorne and admired my handiwork. Hmmmmm......? I then went through the process of evaluating what I had left and where the donor bike was going to go on the side of the house. As I gathered up the leftovers and thought of my good luck at even finding this tank, seeing it there hiding in plain sight, right on Ebay of all places, and for under a hundred bucks? Me the genius I (actually) thought. Then it dawned on me that this rusty piece of crap could be another rider, and then my 20 year old son would leave my rider, (the blue bike,) alone and ride the new lesser model. So, as I set out to rebuild the bike, and part it back together, I started to really like it. The brownish maroon and red combo slayed me. The blue bike was secondary now, as I shopped for parts for my new muse. Am I sick? OCD?  Now, I'm gathering parts and pieces for it and it will get a  full "refurbishment." The tank will go back to it's rightful owner, and the hunt for a blue one will resume. I'll keep all up to date and ask opinions and for tips. Thanks guys for making this thread go.


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## Larmo63 (Oct 30, 2010)

By the way, the girl's Hawthorne for sale here also has the same sticker, "Clymer?" (a silver, foil type sticker, I'll post pics.)


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