# Is it a Westfield or Miami Built Motorbike?



## Iverider (Dec 16, 2013)

*Maybe Miami. Interesting Truss fork configuration.*

Just recently picked up this motorbike from a fellow Caber and the crossbar/seat tube lug suggests that it's a Westfield built bike. The strange thing is, the rear dropouts don't have threading for adjuster like some Miami built bikes I've seen. It also has pretty Chunky stay bridges. Have a look at the photos and tell me what you think. I also didn't see a serial number on the bottom bracket, but I haven't scraped any of the gunk away just yet. Paint? What paint? The rack, grips and chainring seem wrong, and the crank is a bit of a dog leg so unsure on that too. I'm planning on building up a set of Velocity P35s, greasing the bearings up and riding the crap out of it! The D-X graphic on the rear fender is kinda cool too!


----------



## Iverider (Dec 16, 2013)

Love the script on the seat top!


----------



## bellatory (Dec 17, 2013)

Nice photos. But this girl is done for. Think there is any scope for renewing it?


----------



## bricycle (Dec 17, 2013)

That fork is different. Ask the usual crew: davethewave, chitown, fordsnake, hoofhearted, Giovanni


----------



## Nickinator (Dec 17, 2013)

I'm thinking excelsior or miami or possible Hende 

Nick.


----------



## Iverider (Dec 17, 2013)

bellatory said:


> Nice photos. But this girl is done for. Think there is any scope for renewing it?



Bite your tongue! 

I didn't buy it for show. I bought it for go! I could give two schlitz about the paint or the slightly tweaked seat stays. A little grease, chain and wheelset will be all she sees for the foreseeable future. I might soak her in parrafin and diesel to repulse everyone around and keep the rust worms at bay.


----------



## frankster41 (Dec 17, 2013)

I think the bike definitely has potential, I have brought bikes back to life worse than that. It just takes patients.
Please post pics when you get done with it.
Frank


----------



## Iverider (Dec 18, 2013)

Anyone have photos of a not so roached bike like this one? I'm intrigued by the way the truss arms mount to the fork with a kind of wrap around afterthought approach. Both of them are cracked and will need repair at some point.

Hopefully someone will recognize the bike! I'm only trying to identify it. Not to resell!!!


----------



## ejlwheels (Dec 18, 2013)

Your truss rod setup, at least,
is nearly identical to that on 
this Michigan City Excelsior fork.
The rest not so much.
Perhaps it _*was* _some supplier's 
slap-on answer to the emerging
mid-teens truss rod trend?


----------



## hoofhearted (Dec 18, 2013)

Am with ejlwheels on this ride ... however .. there are some Very-Miami Attributes ....

Thick Fender Bridge AND Lack of Adjuster Screws At Rear Dropout ..... 

...........  patric


----------



## catfish (Dec 18, 2013)

Nickinator said:


> I'm thinking excelsior or miami or possible Hende
> 
> Nick.




Not a Hendee.


----------



## Iverider (Dec 18, 2013)

I suppose with the other parts on this bike it could be a bit of a mutt. The rear rack appears to be from the balloon era and the 1/2" pitch chainring does nothing for the provenance.

Thanks EJL on the Fork confirmation. It is definitely the same construction!


----------



## chitown (Dec 18, 2013)

*Pope, Excelsior, Miami???*

Awesome beast of a bike!!!


Whatever it is, it looks early. I think the fork is really unique and could help narrow it down. The Mich City Excelsior fork has that similar crude truss plate added. 

Here is a piece of literature from 1913 which is the earliest motobike design I know of. (no truss rods though)


----------



## bricycle (Dec 18, 2013)

Popes Rule!


----------



## bike (Dec 18, 2013)

*This is exactly the type of bike to restore*



bellatory said:


> Nice photos. But this girl is done for. Think there is any scope for renewing it?




ANY GOON CAN REPAINT KROLON OVER OG PAINT AND CALL IT A RESTORATION sheesh- some people have the silver spoon I guess


----------



## Iverider (Dec 18, 2013)

???? No plans to paint thus far. If I did, I would use a single stage auto paint.
Restoring this one would be more than I'm willing to take on at the moment, plus I'm saving my nickels for Nickel plating on the Arch Truss!!! I need more nickels!


----------



## Iverider (Dec 19, 2013)

So reading this thread over I see that ejl has pointed out that the fork crown on my bike differs from the excelsior he posted. It does have a sort of squared off edge to it. 

I'm leaning toward Miami on this bike but please prove otherwise if you can! It seems to me that sometime someone switched chainrings but didn't Miami bikes use 1/2" pitch? Not saying the ring is correct but in the condition the bike is in, the switch would have been made long ago and if it were originally a skip tooth I would think that would be the replacement we would find. Anyone  have Miami catalogs from the mid teens to share?


----------



## chitown (Dec 19, 2013)

Krautwaggen said:


> It seems to me that sometime someone switched chainrings but didn't Miami bikes use 1/2" pitch? Not saying the ring is correct but in the condition the bike is in, the switch would have been made long ago and if it were originally a skip tooth I would think that would be the replacement we would find.




That ring looks old as in original to me . Schwinn, Miami, Mead, Consolidated Mfg and others were using 1/2" pitch around 1911 until 1917-18 abouts. Don't write off that sprocket yet!


----------



## hoofhearted (Dec 19, 2013)

*C'mon, Now !!! ...................*

Not Enuff Mysteries In Yer Life ???










*  One-Inch Pitch .. 30-T Miami-Built Chainring ...... Not every rider rollin' 
down the pike had a preference for half-inch pitch, chain-drive.

This is one of the many variations produced by this company that 
allowed a buyer to customize using factory parts.*

* This information added today -- September 24, 2014. *



.......... patric



=======================================================
=======================================================


----------



## chitown (Dec 19, 2013)

*OR Schwinn!!!*

Don't forget Schwinn's version of the star ring and 1/2" pitch:





With double brace International Stamping fenders. 

Mr  K Waggon... Here is the 1917 World with your ring on it... and early teens Schwinn maybe???


----------



## Iverider (Dec 19, 2013)

Cheeses cripes!!! Lots of ideas floating. From what I've seen so far between the Miami thread and here I am making the assumption that I have a Miami built bike. I'd like to be able to confirm the fork but who knows. I'm basing my assumption on thick fender bridges and lack of adjusters on the rear drops as well as the lug on the lower crossbar. I noticed that Miami seemed to be obsessed with light. This includes the "ray" and the "light cycle" mine is badged "Star" and has horizontal hole configuration like other Miami bikes. I haven't yet found a serial number on it yet.


----------



## hoofhearted (Dec 20, 2013)

Don't have words, yet, for what I wanna say ... but these two charts 
_may_ speak volumes ... too bad they are in a language understood 
only by me and Marcel Marceau.

Just for this entry ... regarding the charts .. *I Did Make That Crap Up.*


----------



## Iverider (Dec 23, 2013)

So I spent some time "cleaning" up the star this weekend. I swapped out some of the bearings, races and cones so things would spin nicer and regreased everything down to the pedals which now spin purdy well. Took a head on shot of the fork crown which has a captive bolt for attaching the front fender—something I've not seen before. Both truss rod arms are cracked, one is actually free of the fork crown while the other is still barely connected. I don't plan to repair them at this juncture.





Reverse side of the badge. The fork steerer had some red paint on it as well, but the fenders had black paint that appeared to be factory. 




The face of the badge is painted badly, but it's flaking off and wants to be nickel once again!





Cool D-X Reflector that came on the bike







Another fender bridge shot






As of this morning it looks like this! Still have to reinstall the badge (which also had black paint underneath that looked factoryish)






I found an SM front hub that has the right amount of pitting. I also have a Morrow rear hubshell that looks like hell that I'm going to use. Now I have to make my Velocity rims look like they've been used and abused for 100 years. I have enough rusty spokes that are thick enough to still use. I even got the bell working! Sounds a little dull, but who cares?


----------



## bricycle (Dec 23, 2013)

What would be wrong with steelclad woodies? I have plenty of those for you...


----------



## Iverider (Dec 23, 2013)

bricycle said:


> What would be wrong with steelclad woodies? I have plenty of those for you...




They'd be perfect! if tires didn't cost $300!!!!

This is going to be part of my "Dont' trust my friends to ride a nice bike" rider fleet. The Velocity P35s will look good enough I think. I was hoping to put some steel clinchers on it and maybe will in the future.


----------



## bricycle (Dec 23, 2013)

Krautwaggen said:


> They'd be perfect! if tires didn't cost $300!!!!
> 
> This is going to be part of my "Dont' trust my friends to ride a nice bike" rider fleet. The Velocity P35s will look good enough I think. I was hoping to put some steel clinchers on it and maybe will in the future.




tis true enough....


----------



## Iverider (Dec 27, 2013)

So while perusing eBay today I came across a Hartford bicycle purported as being built between 1890 and 1901.

Looks more like early to mid teens to me BUT if you scope out the badge, it's nearly identical to that of my Star motobike.

It also exhibits the same thick fender bridges albeit different flatter fenders. Kind of between full rain gutters and flatties.











There are still differences in it's construction vs. my motobike in that this has a bulbous chainstay termination at the dropout AND axle adjuster screws. It also appears to have a two piece crank that I've not seen before (while mine is one piece)





Could this Hartford be a Miami bike? Is mine a Miami bike? Who knows? How much will it cost to find out?


----------



## Iverider (Dec 27, 2013)

Just got back from Mr. Columbia's page. Whew...I'm worn out. He has a Hartford badge in his Columbia bikes collection leading me to believe the badge (at the very least) is of that manufacture. Guessing the motobike is NOT Miami built although the lack of rear adjuster is still perplexing. The other option is that the badge was not made by Columbia but by another supplier who sold that design to another manufacturer. I do recall the term "Star" being often associated with Pope and once owned a 19-teens saddle embossed with both "Pope" and "Star"


----------



## ejlwheels (Dec 27, 2013)

The Hartford is definitely a Westfield/Pope product.  Around 1900, as I believe the crank arm nut was changed to a hex nut rather than the 2-dawg type on that bike and in this 1900 catalog page.


----------



## bricycle (Dec 27, 2013)

thanks for the info....


----------



## hoofhearted (Dec 27, 2013)

*Krautwaggen* ... there are 'tells' within your 'STAR' that scream Miami-Cycle ... however 
the Miami DNA that i see MAY have passed thru Westfield .. before going out the factory door.

Am noting some conflict in the year Miami supposedly folded.  Many sources site 1922 was their 
final-production year.  One other says 1923 final production year.  Regardless of that final 
production year ... Westfield DID purchase the remains of Miami-Cycle.

I believe there is some connectivity in the name 'STAR' as it pertains to your motorbike ... and 
the Miami-Built 'STAR' motorbike owned by fattommy .. his Miami is just below ... 











Having NEVER seen a truss fork like your 'square-ish' example on any Miami-Built ... i WANT to say 
that fork is not a Miami product.  *However* .. this would show a very limited-degree of consideration on my part.

Your fork HAS Miami features in the top of the 2 into 1 truss design ...like many Miami-Builts ... but that 
squarishness has me uncommitted to say which company built it.  

Could your entire bicycle come from a specific time .. when Westfield was building Westfield-Built Miami's ???

Is your frame built entirely of Miami-Built components .. BUT assembled by Westfield ???  

Is your fork a Miami-Development from just moments before Miami folded ???  

Is it possible that YOUR STAR BADGE came from a stack of Westfield-Produced 'STAR' badges .. these 
badges having a daisy-edge or border ... available on some dusty shelf *inside* Westfield since 1901 ...  
and occasionally got used when two-dozen, simple, private-label bicycles were ordered by Mumford & 
Sons Hardware Store ???  

When Westfield finally exhausted the Miami-STAR badges (if these badges were even used by Westfield) ... 
is it possible that the daisy-edged STAR badge (like yours) was placed on bicycles destined to be delivered 
as a private label ???

One thing IS certain ... much more research is indicated .. before any conclusions can be reached.

................  patric cafaro


----------



## Iverider (Dec 27, 2013)

I like all of these options! I did just email Mr. Columbia who told me the bike didn't have any readily identifiable Columbia features. I'm going to start a list of what it's NOT. It will be easier.


----------



## chitown (Sep 24, 2014)

Looks like you've got a Chicago built Excelsior Cycle Co frame. This fork is a match! This should make the pond even muddier with all these so called Miami built features. (fender bridges, dropouts, trumpet joints on lower bar...) 

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?59363-Help-with-old-excelsior-deluxe!!


----------



## dubsey55 (Sep 26, 2014)

I wouldnt care to hazard a guess as to the manufacturer, but like where your going with the rustoration!  I would tho,strongly suggest you get a competent welder  attach/reattach truss rod arms using  tig with silicon bronze rod , (sticks to rust!). They are in the correct spot now, but wont be for long when you start riding the thing. I have read your IJ posts, and know you like to kick em down the road!  Good for you, and, Im all for rust, but please fix the structural stuff,,,,Walter in NJ


----------



## Hobo Bill (Sep 27, 2014)

*simluar but knot the same*



Krautwaggen said:


> So while perusing eBay today I came across a Hartford bicycle purported as being built between 1890 and 1901.
> 
> Looks more like early to mid teens to me BUT if you scope out the badge, it's nearly identical to that of my Star motobike.
> 
> ...



Interesting badges Hartford cycle co. with an attached badge on top that reads american bicycle co.  i don't know if this has any connection with the pope...still a bast eh!!


----------



## fordsnake (Sep 28, 2014)

Hobo Bill said:


> Interesting badges Hartford cycle co. with an attached badge on top that reads american bicycle co.  i don't know if this has any connection with the pope...still a bast eh!!




Colonel Augustus Pope was instrumental in creating the American Bicycle Company (ABC); a consolidation of 42 bicycle manufacturers. Eventually Pope acquired ownership of the trust, which controlled the central bicycle patents in the US. Hence earning Pope a residual of around $10 for every bike sold. The Pope Manufacturing Co was manufacturing about a quarter million bicycles annually.

After Pope's death, the company reorganized and it was renamed the Westfield Manufacturing Company.

By your own evidence the inverted “Y” truss rods suggest it could be a mid or late 20’s Westfield build?




Other Miami badge names under the Westfield banner.


----------



## bricycle (Oct 21, 2014)

Krautwaggen said:


> Just recently picked up this motorbike from a fellow Caber and the crossbar/seat tube lug suggests that it's a Westfield built bike. The strange thing is, the rear dropouts don't have threading for adjuster like some Miami built bikes I've seen. It also has pretty Chunky stay bridges. Have a look at the photos and tell me what you think. I also didn't see a serial number on the bottom bracket, but I haven't scraped any of the gunk away just yet. Paint? What paint? The rack, grips and chainring seem wrong, and the crank is a bit of a dog leg so unsure on that too. I'm planning on building up a set of Velocity P35s, greasing the bearings up and riding the crap out of it! The D-X graphic on the rear fender is kinda cool too!




So is this Circa 1920???


----------



## kccomet (Oct 21, 2014)

id say pope i have the same truss rod set up on an early crusty moto frame


----------



## kccomet (Oct 21, 2014)

pope


----------

