# Prewar CWC find, help / opinion



## Scribble (Apr 1, 2019)

Found this on Craigslist recently guy thought it was a 1939 Roadmaster, after a little poking around it looks more like a 40-42 tall tank CWC Western Flyer, has the Roadmaster badge though. Rivets were punched out on the badge which makes me think it was replaced. Also can't tell if it was a repaint or not, if it's a repaint its a damn good one. Also give your honest opinion what you think it's worth, so I can gauge if I got a good deal.


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## Krakatoa (Apr 2, 2019)

Very nice find looks like og paint from here. It is a tall tank. Also looks like a CWC version to me. Headlight is not correct.


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## szathmarig (Apr 3, 2019)

I'd say $300-$350


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## Euphman06 (Apr 4, 2019)

I'm actually leaning towards a repaint. Did they paint the fender rivets at the factory? I'm not sure I've seen that before from factory paint since the parts weren't together at the stage of painting from the factory. I could be wrong of course, that back reflector housing  doesn't look like it should be painted either.


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## TieDye (Apr 4, 2019)

I believe that this is a very late 41 (December), or most likely a January 1942 bike.  The lack of Cw suffix,  and the A serial number fits right in there with what Phil has said, and his chart shows. (Attached)  The fact that this frame has the rear stand "ears" just tells me it was made before they decided to go to regular center kickstands.  (Schwinn and other manufacturers had been putting center kickstands, like the Miller, on their bikes since 36 or 37)  Frames were made in advance of bikes being built, could have even been made 3-4 months before assembly.  They used up the oldest frames in stock before making the change to their new design, which was center kickstand.  What I find particularly interesting and cool is that I just purchased one of these early series "oddballs"-- a ladies Roadmaster that the serial number is slightly before this sequencially, but yet has no rear stand frame "ears" at all.  The serial number on it is A01652 no Cw either.  Mine is sequentially 1,404 bike frames *before* this red one here.  But, I am sure they had way more boy's frames made, and to use up, before the girls ones.  It leads me to believe even more so, that the serial numbers were stamped probably just before being painted and assembled.  Hence the difference of the rear stand ears on this red boy's and none on mine.  They had started making the new girl's frames, but were still using up the boy's rear frame stand ones made before they had decided on the design change for 1942.  Phil had mentioned here somewhere in a post I read, that by February of 1942 they were not producing any parts, and were finishing using up what they had in order to complete as many bikes as they could.  Again, the crucial A in the serial number (no CW) just fits this bike with it's features.  So, since Phil spent a ton of time gathering facts and all that, and made this chart, I gotta say I think it's most likely a middle of January 1942 bike.  Check the chart, and the serial number on the ladies I just bought, which has no "ears" and a postwar tank, which was also another design change for 42.  I think my Roadmaster, and this red one can probably be looked at as one of the last couple of thousand that left the factory after Pearl Harbor was bombed and we were gonna go kick some butt.  We'll never know for sure, but I think Phil's work stands pretty good on this.  The green colored series 2 on this chart has an A that fits here very well.   The wheels have been repainted for sure, and the headlight is not original but it's better than not having one at all.   Anyways, the red one is a very nice bike!!  Nice score!!  @Scribble


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## Jeff54 (Apr 4, 2019)

Yeah it does look like a pretty nice repaint. Shouldn't have painted the head post like that, 'The give-away' The Dart on fork is off a little  as, the tips should be even. But shoot all that pin stripping and the rest are pretty darned nice. The rims ought to be either chrome or pin striped so, another hint. 

I have a 41 CWC western flyer and 48/9 both do not have  rivets, just screws holding  the badges. Since Roadmaster built most of the Western fliers, you can find all of CWC's parts as original on roadmaster and western flyers.  Albeit, Roadmaster was CWC's own brand.  There's an article about it; CWC's owner braggen about  over 100 different badges on his desk. 

That Frame is prob a 42 .


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## Scribble (Apr 4, 2019)

Euphman06 said:


> I'm actually leaning towards a repaint. Did they paint the fender rivets at the factory? I'm not sure I've seen that before from factory paint since the parts weren't together at the stage of painting from the factory. I could be wrong of course, that back reflector housing  doesn't look like it should be painted either.




Yeah that's why I was bringing it up, there's things indicate it's been repainted. But it's it really good paint job, I guess it's possible it could have been repainted by somebody like us couple decades ago.


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## Scribble (Apr 4, 2019)

TieDye said:


> I believe that this is a very late 41 (December), or most likely a January 1942 bike.  The lack of Cw suffix,  and the A serial number fits right in there with what Phil has said, and his chart shows. (Attached)  The fact that this frame has the rear stand "ears" just tells me it was made before they decided to go to regular center kickstands.  (Schwinn and other manufacturers had been putting center kickstands, like the Miller, on their bikes since 36 or 37)  Frames were made in advance of bikes being built, could have even been made 3-4 months before assembly.  They used up the oldest frames in stock before making the change to their new design, which was center kickstand.  What I find particularly interesting and cool is that I just purchased one of these early series "oddballs"-- a ladies Roadmaster that the serial number is slightly before this sequencially, but yet has no rear stand frame "ears" at all.  The serial number on it is A01652 no Cw either.  Mine is sequentially 1,404 bike frames *before* this red one here.  But, I am sure they had way more boy's frames made, and to use up, before the girls ones.  It leads me to believe even more so, that the serial numbers were stamped probably just before being painted and assembled.  Hence the difference of the rear stand ears on this red boy's and none on mine.  They had started making the new girl's frames, but were still using up the boy's rear frame stand ones made before they had decided on the design change for 1942.  Phil had mentioned here somewhere in a post I read, that by February of 1942 they were not producing any parts, and were finishing using up what they had in order to complete as many bikes as they could.  Again, the crucial A in the serial number (no CW) just fits this bike with it's features.  So, since Phil spent a ton of time gathering facts and all that, and made this chart, I gotta say I think it's most likely a middle of January 1942 bike.  Check the chart, and the serial number on the ladies I just bought, which has no "ears" and a postwar tank, which was also another design change for 42.  I think my Roadmaster, and this red one can probably be looked at as one of the last couple of thousand that left the factory after Pearl Harbor was bombed and we were gonna go kick some butt.  We'll never know for sure, but I think Phil's work stands pretty good on this.  The green colored series 2 on this chart has an A that fits here very well.   The wheels have been repainted for sure, and the headlight is not original but it's better than not having one at all.   Anyways, the red one is a very nice bike!!  Nice score!!  @Scribble
> 
> View attachment 975343
> 
> View attachment 975344




Thank you, that was an amazing Treasure Trove of information. Very happy with my find then, don't see many 42/during war produced bikes especially with that suspension front end. I've already had several people barking at my door about selling it, both here and on Rat Rod bikes. I honestly always struggle with putting price tags on the stuff, I was never a really good buyer, seller, flipper. Thanks again for all the help !


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## Jeff54 (Apr 4, 2019)

It is possible your bike was a 41. That is if you could nail down the paint schemes, the white arrows/ darts  or other typical secondary pattern on the frame. Different fender tip patterns and whether it's tricolored or not. There's not reason to say that whoever did this just picked out random colors b/c CWC made plenty of different tricolored shades. .

Probably a difficult task b/c CWC offered several different patterns and made a lot of specials and or unusual colors.

Whoever painted the bike, like a lot of restorations, probably didn't have much reference when trying to get the white triangle darts on front post and bars sized correctly.  whereas the triangular darts would be all the same size, while your low bar's white is shorter, compared to  the top two.  The pin strips around the fenders, they're too low and curve up to fit the fender tip's pattern.

But, This larger dart pattern on the same frame with similar fender tips , while your darts are mismatched,  does appear in 1941. Here's an ad from then. It's possible the painter used this paint scheme, what it looked like originally.






But If it was a 41, CWC did a real good job of making so many different patterns and color schemes, Unlike most other manufactures, including Schwinn  who was just about their only competitor in quantity made and sold.   Top competitor pumping out more badges, mixed parts, color and paint styles in the 1930/40's than anybody, it's to confusing to be sure. The most difficult in nailing a date b/c there are so many different fender tip patterns, it's like they put fender patterns  on near any style or to fill orders from western flier and others,   randomly.


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## Krakatoa (Apr 4, 2019)

Upon closer inspection leaning towards a repaint. The long orange pin that continues down the downtube def doesn't look quite right.


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## TieDye (Apr 4, 2019)

The fork and head have been repainted, as the red is darker. It is possible the standard fork was replaced with the shockmaster style. Roadmaster had what they called a "Special" or a "B unequipped" and that had the extra pinstripes on the sides of the frame tubes, like the 41 pictured here. Like what you see on this one.  The frame and fenders are either original paint, or were repainted by someone that did a decent job. They also had 2 different fender tips pinstripping--standard and deluxe/supreme. The pic here gives you the basic idea there.The rims would have been painted with pinstripes, or chrome, depending on year/model.


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## Scribble (Apr 4, 2019)

TieDye said:


> The fork and head have been repainted, as the red is darker. It is possible the standard fork was replaced with the shockmaster style. Roadmaster had what they called a "Special" or a "B unequipped" and that had the extra pinstripes on the sides of the frame tubes, like the 41 pictured here. Like what you see on this one.  The frame and fenders are either original paint, or were repainted by someone that did a decent job. They also had 2 different fender tips pinstripping--standard and deluxe/supreme. The pic here gives you the basic idea there.The rims would have been painted with pinstripes, or chrome, depending on year/model.
> 
> View attachment 975768
> 
> View attachment 975770




All the paint is uniform, I started cleaning oxidation off of everything. The reds are all the same shade. But with all my poking around I can definitely tell the pinstriping was done by hand. Few places where somebody messed up and went back over it, looks like they were trying to copy Supreme style fender striping. But didn't do the second layer of stripes on the fenders. The wheels are painted white and have the ghosts of black pinstripe still on them. I've seen plenty of other CWC tall tanks with the shockmaster Fork. Don't believe the fork was switched out because the bike originally came from an estate sale, I'm the third person to own it since coming from the estate sale according to last owner. 

So it's safe to say this is a 41 or 42 CWC Roadmaster tall tank, with a Supreme style repaint.


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## Jeff54 (Apr 5, 2019)

This is another reason, I say CWC is so difficult. I mean, this, (below)  might be a 42 b/c of the paint scheme and drop out ears for the stand. . Yet it's cited in 41 too.

I thin CWC guy thought of himself as semi artistic  mad scientist, mix matching colors, parts badges etc. Literately enjoying the various ways he could put colors and styles together which could also enable him to place different badges. Like he might just say, "Oh, the main white colored are Roadmaster and the purple are western flier, but the green are another brand, etc., etc.  But if it's white with purple pin stripes then it's this or that badged', . :"another brand/label and use whichever fender tip design, chain guard and sprocket, colored rims to match bike's paint, or not,  , white with black red, green blue etc, pin stripe or chrome, take your pick .  So many toys to play with, mix and match until a company's purchaser buys. . b/c with so much color, parts and pattern variation, it's near limitless. Whereas,  Schwinn and others were more orderly like. Certainly more colors than standard, some tri-colored too but, CWC up the stakes on that deal.

This just might be CWC's last Deluxe/Special/Standard, take your pick, prewar paint scheme as similar appears post war, but, who the heck knows CWC for sure.

This could be a 40-41, maybe a 43, 44. It's an H31410 serial number '40-41': https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/how-to-date-a-cleveland-welding-company-roadmaster.26064/ which is, according to chart, 40-42ish

Maybe somebody has or someday, can figure out what the mad hatter/artist/scientist or Boss was doing with what and when. Then you could discriminate paint schemes and with that great chart 'Phil'  made, say; that's a 41 b/c it has 38's scheme and ,  below is 42 for the paint style.

But except of course the Topic bike was repainted, and many, many like it have been too so, it's another variable that makes em tough to nail down.


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## TieDye (Apr 5, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> This is another reason, I say CWC is so difficult. I mean, this, (below)  might be a 42 b/c of the paint scheme and drop out ears for the stand. . Yet it's cited in 41 too.
> 
> I thin CWC guy thought of himself as semi artistic  mad scientist, mix matching colors, parts badges etc. Literately enjoying the various ways he could put colors and styles together which could also enable him to place different badges. Like he might just say, "Oh, the main white colored are Roadmaster and the purple are western flier, but the green are another brand, etc., etc. :" another brand/label and use whichever fender tip design, chain guard and sprocket, colored rims to match bike's paint, or not,  , white with black red, green blue etc, pin stripe or chrome, take your pick .  So many toys to play with, mix and match until a company's purchaser buys. . Whereas,  Schwinn and others were more orderly like. Certainly more colors than standard, some tri-colored too but, CWC up the stakes on that deal.
> 
> ...



H without the rear frame stand "ears" is clearly a 1946.    Your fender is shorter for the rear stand clip to be at the right height.  A frame without the frame "ears"  would have the longer rear fender, and a center stand. If you can see the little letters and divisions in the area nearest the year block, in the chart, there are increments for the months.  J=Jan. F-Feb. etc. through the year there.  I'll see if I can find the blowup I have to help that to be seen better.  H falls in the months of August through the end of November of 1946.  Per all the work that Phil did.  Certain features fit certain series.  The biggest wrench in the fire here is when production stopped rather hurriedly in 1942, and resumed postwar. Then they were using up old designed parts, old parts, and new ones until production became normal again.


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## TieDye (Apr 5, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> This is another reason, I say CWC is so difficult. I mean, this, (below)  might be a 42 b/c of the paint scheme and drop out ears for the stand. . Yet it's cited in 41 too.
> 
> I thin CWC guy thought of himself as semi artistic  mad scientist, mix matching colors, parts badges etc. Literately enjoying the various ways he could put colors and styles together which could also enable him to place different badges. Like he might just say, "Oh, the main white colored are Roadmaster and the purple are western flier, but the green are another brand, etc., etc.  But if it's white with purple pin stripes then it's this or that badged', . :"another brand/label and use whichever fender tip design, chain guard and sprocket, colored rims to match bike's paint, or not,  , white with black red, green blue etc, pin stripe or chrome, take your pick .  So many toys to play with, mix and match until a company's purchaser buys. . b/c with so much color, parts and pattern variation, it's near limitless. Whereas,  Schwinn and others were more orderly like. Certainly more colors than standard, some tri-colored too but, CWC up the stakes on that deal.
> 
> ...



And, H prewar fell in 1940 and 1941. November 1940 to the end of March of 1941, per Phil's chart, which is very accurate.


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## TieDye (Apr 5, 2019)

Ok, this might be helpful for a few people. Closeups. The second picture will allow you to see the month divisions in each year and letters. This detail is helpful.


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## Jeff54 (Apr 5, 2019)

Yeah but no, that bike has dog-ears, maybe blow it up and look again. Those fenders are my point and the paint style too, as the fenders look like post war style yet match the usage and age of the whole thing.. the white on top and lower bars are not triangular, it's a different paint scheme on the frame that can be found on flat bar's too. .   Here's another with  DX type bars (curved top and lower bar)  and the same fenders as previously posted Ur replying to.   at Dave's nostalgic site, he cites as 1941 all original paint parts, dog ears etc. : http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle333/picture1411









TieDye said:


> H without the rear frame stand "ears" is clearly a 1946.    Your fender is shorter for the rear stand clip to be at the right height.  A frame without the frame "ears"  would have the longer rear fender, and a center stand. If you can see the little letters and divisions in the area nearest the year block, in the chart, there are increments for the months.  J=Jan. F-Feb. etc. through the year there.  I'll see if I can find the blowup I have to help that to be seen better.  H falls in the months of August through the end of November of 1946.  Per all the work that Phil did.  Certain features fit certain series.  The biggest wrench in the fire here is when production stopped rather hurriedly in 1942, and resumed postwar. Then they were using up old designed parts, old parts, and new ones until production became normal again.


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## TieDye (Apr 5, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> Yeah but no, that bike has dog-ears, maybe blow it up and look again. Those fenders are my point and the paint style too, as the fenders look like post war style yet match the usage and age of the whole thing.. the white on top and lower bars are not triangular, it's a different paint scheme on the frame that can be found on flat bar's too. .   Here's another with  DX type bars (curved top and lower bar)  and the same fenders as previously posted Ur replying to.   at Dave's nostalgic site, he cites as 1941 all original paint parts, dog ears etc. : http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle333/picture1411
> View attachment 975911



Well, re read my post. I am only stating that frames without "ears" have longer rear fenders. I am stating that with the "ears" that they are shorter fenders.  I am NOT stating that yours is wrong.  I am pointing out the differences on those areas.  This second bike you pictured has the second frame style, as you describe it's differences. Yes, it is correct for 41.  Things changed yet again when they did not put the "ears" on any frame, commonly seen on what we call postwar CWC bikes.  But, there are January 1942 frames that do NOT have the "ears" either, as they were making that change then to get do away with the rear stand, to keep up with Schwinn and others who had done away with them in 1936 or 1937 on their higher priced bikes. Back to the red bike, the rear fender is short and the frame has rear drop stand "ears" and so the rear stand would be correct there, not a center stand.  Roadmaster used peaked fenders for a couple of years before 1941.  The Roadmaster catalog that is available for prewar bikes illustrates and describes the fender change, and a lot more information.


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## TieDye (Apr 5, 2019)

Also, the first year for the Roadmaster fully enclosed chainguard was 1941, and only on certain models.  After this, they were the norm.  And, the first year of the Roadmaster ball light attached on the fork mount was also 1941.  There were a lot of upgrades and changes happening in 1941 and planned for 1942. Sadly, CWC got interrupted in their plans, and we had to wait to postwar to see where they were headed with all those changes.


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## Jeff54 (Apr 5, 2019)

Ok whatever, but where'd Phil's chart come from, I've read both here and rat rod's where he was looking for samples and variations for serial number ID 2009-10 IDK 3-4 years ago, and quit year or so ago multiple times and pretty much kept up with the thread too. an figured he'd gotten P.O.-ed at peeps or planned to sell  and didn't publish results. But never saw the chart until you posted it.

As for very accurate, I think moreover, Very, very close. Prob the closest anybody's gotten, the best. And that the next step, as I mentioned above, would be to combine paint schemes to year.

That you'get got the catalog or access to it, pretty co0l, Personally I haven't made CWC my hobby, just trying to decipher stuff. yet b/c it's 38 fender scheme  then, it indicates, the topic bike and paint  very well may be a 41, moreover, greater odds it is. . Maybe even, despite Phil's results, 1940 was the time period CWC began phasing out the ears. Like autos, the newer year is presented for sale 4 months prior to the actual year with factory production for them at least 6 months ahead too.



TieDye said:


> Well, re read my post. I am only stating that frames without "ears" have longer rear fenders. I am stating that with the "ears" that they are shorter fenders.  I am NOT stating that yours is wrong.  I am pointing out the differences on those areas.  This second bike you pictured has the second frame style, as you describe it's differences. Yes, it is correct for 41.  Things changed yet again when they did not put the "ears" on any frame, commonly seen on what we call postwar CWC bikes.  But, there are January 1942 frames that do NOT have the "ears" either, as they were making that change then to get do away with the rear stand, to keep up with Schwinn and others who had done away with them in 1936 or 1937 on their higher priced bikes. Back to the red bike, the rear fender is short and the frame has rear drop stand "ears" and so the rear stand would be correct there, not a center stand.  Roadmaster used peaked fenders for a couple of years before 1941.  The Roadmaster catalog that is available for prewar bikes illustrates and describes the fender change, and a lot more information.


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## TieDye (Apr 5, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> Ok whatever, but where'd Phil's chart come from, I've read both here and rat rod's where he was looking for samples and variations for serial number i.d. 2009-10 IDK a year or so ago and pretty much kept up with the thread too. an figured he'd gotten P.O.-ed at peeps or planned to sell  and didn't publish results. But never saw the chart until you posted it.
> 
> As for very accurate, I think moreover, Very, very close. Prob the closest anybody's gotten, the best. And that the next step, as I mentioned above, would be to combine paint schemes to year.
> 
> That you'get got the catalog or access to it, pretty co0l, Personally I haven't made CWC my hobby, just trying to decipher stuff. yet b/c it's 38 fender scheme  then, it indicates, the topic bike and paint  very well may be a 41, moreover, greater odds it is. . Maybe even, despite Phil's results, 1940 was the time period CWC began phasing out the ears.



If you haven't seen the chart posted here by many others, then you need to come here more often.  I have other color charts from 38, 39, and 41 for sure. I could post them all, but they are in the catalog you can get from Scott anyways. My husband and I have Roadmasters of the following years: 1938, the 1942 I have coming, 1946,  1947, 1949, 1950, 1952 and two 1953s.  That's why I have done a lot of research on Roadmasters.


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## TieDye (Apr 5, 2019)

Here are CWC Roadmaster color charts for a few years. They are labeled as to which year they were published, etc. There are also "Special" paint additional ones that basically just added long pinstripes down the sides of the frame rails to make them more decorative. Those bikes are pictured in the book as well, and I posted a picture of a green one Is love to find in an above post here.

Deb


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## Jeff54 (Apr 5, 2019)

TieDye said:


> If you haven't seen the chart posted here by many others, then you need to come here more often.  .




Oh I been here plenty lol and plenty time whenever I'd-ing bikes and repaints, ,, unwelcome. ,,  A lot of people get disappointed when discovering it's not what they'd thought. I'm glad the OP didn't and followed through b/c not many do. U see, I was painting bikes in early-mid 60's and learned long time how difficult it can be. Can spot em, like this topic, that made me just keep looking it over, multiple times, not just b/c the obvious but, pin stripping is pretty danged good on the frame,. And b/c OP looked closer yo,, it, confirmed what I suspected; Fender pin striping around tip was too shaky or uneven to be factory. It's actually the first time I'd explored their pinstripes on deluxe fenders plus, that girl's bike's stripes on frame, and especially topic bike's orange stripe, pops!

Regardless, u know That old CWC thread from 2009 is unorderly and confusing b/c many did not quote the new post answered. . I think phil said he was making a chart, but, for the many, many times I hunted, never saw it there.

Also think, you're doing great here and you should ask CABE to open a new , 'Roadmaster/Western Flier, Cleveland Welding Company (CWC)'  topic like Schwinn's got.  make first post  with all that data, photos, cat info, and include in it, credit and link  to phil's old thread too,  let it ride for long time eh?


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## Kickstand3 (Apr 5, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> Yeah but no, that bike has dog-ears, maybe blow it up and look again. Those fenders are my point and the paint style too, as the fenders look like post war style yet match the usage and age of the whole thing.. the white on top and lower bars are not triangular, it's a different paint scheme on the frame that can be found on flat bar's too. . Here's another with DX type bars (curved top and lower bar) and the same fenders as previously posted Ur replying to. at Dave's nostalgic site, he cites as 1941 all original paint parts, dog ears etc. : http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle333/picture1411
> View attachment 975911




Sure looks like my bike! 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Jeff54 (Apr 5, 2019)

"Looks like"? Indeed, that is your bike at Dave's;  http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle333/picture1412



Kickstand3 said:


> Sure looks like my bike! View attachment 976009
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## CURTIS L LINDGREN (Apr 5, 2019)

Kickstand3 said:


> Sure looks like my bike! View attachment 976009
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



That's the BEEZ KNEEZ !!!!!!                                                 in Paris , they would say "Le Magnifique " !!!!


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## Kickstand3 (Apr 5, 2019)

I still have the seat with a little rip , it’s got my rider seat on it in pic 
Wow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Jeff54 (Apr 5, 2019)

Here one that throws mud in the ring. "the new 1941 Roadmaster" I spect from their whole article in the ad, it's December to February 1941 print. And unless they just whipped this out the very same month of 41 then, the frame was made in 40. [edit] shoot, Feller's fame was the season of 41, so, X that, it's definitely  summer ad of 41

My Psychic mind wants to say this bike is white or cream and red with lighter than red pin stripping, but it's quite possible it's Cream (or white) and blue with orange pinstripes. Duel stripes at that, 'two tone colors' in the catalog but,  'Tricolored' for the pin stripes. Four if it's cream b/c the front ends of fender  sure looks white.  White (or  Cream), blue and orange pin strips would be the Indians color palate. Here's link to Cleveland's old uniforms: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xHjP1chJY.../rPoCg8pF69w/s1600/Cleveland+Indians+1200.jpg

The inside of the 'C' on his uniform would be orange, his long sleeved shirt blue, and stripes blue, white and or cream base color too. Come to tink on it, dat's why CWC did that cool, bright  Orange that pops! , duh. 

Can't see the duel stripes on front fender very well but no missing em on the rear. Twisted heart sprocket too, which has been thought to be for girls. Can't be sure but doesn't look like skip tooth too. Dog ear,  Flat bar, with curved top and lower bar's paint scheme.  this bike is top of the line, all the bells and whistles. Opps it aint got bells and whistles, but U get the point.


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## mrg (Apr 5, 2019)

Isn't  this thread about Tall Tank's, CWC'S ( & WF )  top of the line from late 40 thru early 42 with De luxe paint & striping, all the pictures posted here after the subject bike have been bent tanks with Standard paint, a whole different model!, The TT does not share it's frame or tank with any other model. Western Flyer version started out with a different guard & rack than the Roadmaster but by the end they seemed to use the same, maybe from wartime shortages?


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## TieDye (Apr 5, 2019)

mrg said:


> Isn't  this thread about Tall Tank's, CWC'S ( & WF )  top of the line from late 40 thru early 42 with De luxe paint & striping, all the pictures posted here after the subject bike have been bent tanks with Standard paint, a whole different model!, The TT does not share it's frame or tank with any other model. Western Flyer version started out with a different guard & rack than the Roadmaster but by the end they seemed to use the same, maybe from wartime shortages?
> View attachment 976210
> 
> View attachment 976211
> ...



Geez.....  *No*, the post isn't about tanks, its about getting an idea of what the *year *is based on serial number, etc. The first post in this thread is what it's about.... It's always amazing to see how the topic wanders.... smh


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## mrg (Apr 5, 2019)

Yes, the first post is about getting info on his CWC Tall tank model, year, og paint etc. and I don't know either why a thread goes of track to different models, I guess the posters jump in before reading it all.


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## TieDye (Apr 5, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> Here one that throws mud in the ring. "the new 1941 Roadmaster" I spect from their whole article in the ad, it's December to February 1941 print. And unless they just whipped this out the very same month of 41 then, the frame was made in 40. [edit] shoot, Feller's fame was the season of 41, so, X that, it's definitely  summer ad of 41
> 
> My Psychic mind wants to say this bike is white or cream and red with lighter than red pin stripping, but it's quite possible it's Cream (or white) and blue with orange pinstripes. Duel stripes at that, 'two tone colors' in the catalog but,  'Tricolored' for the pin stripes. Four if it's cream b/c the front ends of fender  sure looks white.  White (or  Cream), blue and orange pin strips would be the Indians color palate. Here's link to Cleveland's old uniforms: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xHjP1chJY.../rPoCg8pF69w/s1600/Cleveland+Indians+1200.jpg
> 
> ...



Buy the 1936 to 1941 Roadmaster book from Scott, you'll have all kinds of great catalog pictures and model specific facts, etc. to help. Twisted hearts were very common in 40 and 41 models, and the book shows a lot of men's bikes with them....  I recommend the book.


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## Jeff54 (Apr 6, 2019)

TieDye said:


> Buy the 1936 to 1941 Roadmaster book from Scott, you'll have all kinds of great catalog pictures and model specific facts, etc. to help. Twisted hearts were very common in 40 and 41 models, and the book shows a lot of men's bikes with them....  I recommend the book.




Ah ha! here it is! The proof, evidence that the new (pre-war) angled chain stay,  dog-ear, flat bar  frame,  the same type in topic, same used 41 through 42> in previous ad posted, was made in 1940.  [Jeff54 drops the mic, wink]


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## Jeff54 (Apr 6, 2019)

TieDye said:


> Here are CWC Roadmaster color charts for a few years. They are labeled as to which year they were published, etc. There are also "Special" paint additional ones that basically just added long pinstripes down the sides of the frame rails to make them more decorative. Those bikes are pictured in the book as well, and I posted a picture of a green one Is love to find in an above post here.
> 
> Deb
> 
> ...





Oh this photo is pretty cool. The same I'd posted earlier but better. I'd presumed this 1941 bike does not have skip-tooth chain and colors might be cream or white base and secondary blue with orange stripes as it would be like the Indian's team uniform  palate. I think the new chain and Sproket adds another dimension to styles and years, It's a time line, 41, not mentioned in their ads of a better chain on their specials. .

But here we can gather from this larger, autographed photo; it's not blue secondary color but orange. Orange and cream or white are not listed as 41 colors which means. we can presume moreover, that even the 38 colors you're showing, are applicable in 41 too. And it's likely that, when CWC listed "New colors" in different years, such as the 41's from catalog, these are new shades of red, green, blue, Maroon, etc. That obviously, as in 41 Orange is not listed, CWC's entire color palate is/was availed probably all the up to closing in 42. And we can color this bike to be sure too. The cat or ad that mrg provided, reposted below the Feller autograph image here; White or cream, orange secondary with white and black pin stripping, that's Feller's 1941 bike:






While I really like the orange pin stripping on topic bike but I'd bet this orange secondary color is so bright, it  just jumps out of the crowd, POPS out.


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## TieDye (Apr 6, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> Ah ha! here it is! The proof, evidence that the new (pre-war) angled chain stay,  dog-ear, flat bar  frame,  the same type in topic, same used 41 through 42> in previous ad posted, was made in 1940.  [Jeff54 drops the mic, wink]
> 
> 
> View attachment 976274



No one said anything about the frame not being correct, and no one said it wasn't from 41 or 42. There wasn't any argument about that. All I was getting at there was where the serial number on his red bike is so close to mine, but mine does not have ears,  and they are both second series A *****and NO Cw serial numbers. The chart says second series A were in December 41 and January 1942. As I already said. I was just helping the guy out as best I could. I think reading the thread completely would be of help. Buy the book and see what you don't know, really look at Phil's chart. I only shared some of what I have in order to help. None of this is carved in stone. The book offers a lot of help, and you don't have it.


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## TieDye (Apr 6, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> Ah ha! here it is! The proof, evidence that the new (pre-war) angled chain stay,  dog-ear, flat bar  frame,  the same type in topic, same used 41 through 42> in previous ad posted, was made in 1940.  [Jeff54 drops the mic, wink]
> 
> 
> View attachment 976274



I never said that the frame with ears was new in 41. I only mentioned my January 1942 A no Cw has no ears but shares the same 2nd series of serial numbers. Its not an A from the series 3 because it would have a suffix of Cw and mine does not either. If the Cw was there, it would be from 1947 March to May of 47. Without ears. No CW makes these A serial numbers right on the border of prewar or postwar.


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## Jeff54 (Apr 6, 2019)

mrg said:


> Yes, the first post is about getting info on his CWC Tall tank model, year, og paint etc. and I don't know either why a thread goes of track to different models, I guess the posters jump in before reading it all.View attachment 976222




Think you're missing the point of why we're seeing two different styles mrg..  Tall or flat bars is same to me here, and why the double curved bar is here is B/C of topic bike, and TyeDye's illustration of the girls 41.. It's that center bar pin-striping on the frame, fender differences and secondary pattern, pointed 'dart' verses curved.

Which, after we established it's repainted, what remains, is not posting a slew of the same bikes revived, but, the one most special paint scheme, we see in the double curved bar, but in his, the flat bar.  The dart pattern on top and lower frame bars,  verses the commonly, found as you posted over and over,  curved. So, did the person who repainted it, do a resemblance of what was original or fantasy, b/c like it is, adding that orange pin stripe  from the point of pointed, 'dart'  white or cream secondary color on the frame, really, really POPs! ?

I.E rather than post what's there, where's the OP's original paint scheme, if it exists or fantasy,  on another boy's flat bar, eh? TyeDye indicates it does, and presumably a very, very special paint scheme.
Ya gotta read, comprehend albeit, my grammar leaves something to desire,  verses; 'looky, looky all the pretty photos' and jump in.


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## TieDye (Apr 6, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> Ah ha! here it is! The proof, evidence that the new (pre-war) angled chain stay,  dog-ear, flat bar  frame,  the same type in topic, same used 41 through 42> in previous ad posted, was made in 1940.  [Jeff54 drops the mic, wink]
> 
> 
> View attachment 976274



Then explain why they talk about their new fully enclosed chainguard for 1941? Like shown on this bike here. Before this style they were totally different.


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## TieDye (Apr 6, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> Think you're missing the point of why we're seeing two different styles mrg..  Tall or flat bars is same to me here, and why the double curved bar is here is B/C of topic bike, and TyeDye's illustration of the girls 41.. It's that center bar pin-striping on the frame, fender differences and secondary pattern, pointed 'dart' verses curved.
> 
> Which, after we established it's repainted, what remains, is not posting a slew of the same bikes revived, but, the one most special paint scheme, we see in the double curved bar, but in his, the flat bar.  The dart pattern on top and lower frame bars,  verses the commonly, found as you posted over and over,  curved. So, did the person who repainted it, do a resemblance of what was original or fantasy, b/c like it is, adding that orange pin stripe on pointed white or cream secondary color on the frame, really, really POPs! ?
> 
> ...



They are in the book. Not just girls, but a 1940 red mens with the side pinstripes. Man, you need the book.


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## Jeff54 (Apr 6, 2019)

TieDye said:


> They are in the book. Not just girls, but a 1940 red mens with the side pinstripes. Man, you need the book.



Yeah I need 50-60 bucks too. [grin]. and me tells ya a ting or two I will. B/C this aint the buy sell forum. My daughter, the writer and illustrator, has plenty published children's books, Hardcover, full color illustrations on every page. One is a set of 4 smaller hardcovers. U may of heard of one; in the set: 'Who farted' [grin] b/c I meet people who have all the time.  They're sold by her publisher to retail all over everywhere, including the gift shop at MOMA. (Museum of modern art) .retailer's  rack Issue prices are about 15-20 bucks. Not 50-60. They'll pay her 1-2,000 bucks for her idea and she goes to work making it.  Once they recover initial investment, or sell all of the first publishing of any, IDK 1,000-2,000, first printing.  she gets her royalty from the second printing , IDK a buck or so per book.  The publisher's plan is to make some money, duh. Not over night; some higher priced sales but, long term.

And the reason they're in MOMA and other art museums is not b/c they're copies of catalogs and stuff, or lucky the publisher has connections, not at all. They're art, listed in the international archives, same place Picasso is. That's 50-60 buck stuff,. if U an art collector, , yet, merely 15-20, on the rack.

Disclaimer:  left her name and title of her books including  the cover title of  4 book set out b/c I ain't pitching her books here. Don't want to derail this topic and as it's not the buy//sell forum, I got your message the first time, IDK your 1st or 2nd post, 'Scott's book'  and enjoy your input TyeDye, much good stuff contributed to topic and thread. And I know you mean no harm, for sure, just trying to be helpful,  but. let's not pitch sales eh?


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## TieDye (Apr 6, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> Yeah I need 50-60 bucks too. [grin]. and me tells ya a ting or two I will. B/C this aint the buy sell forum. My daughter, the writer and illustrator, has plenty published children's books, Hardcover, full color illustrations on every page. One is a set of 4 smaller hardcovers. U may of heard of one; in the set: 'Who farted' [grin] b/c I meet people who have all the time.  They're sold by her publisher to retail all over everywhere, including the gift shop at MOMA. (Museum of modern art) .retailer's  rack Issue prices are about 15-20 bucks. Not 50-60. They'll pay her 1-2,000 bucks for her idea and she goes to work making it.  Once they recover initial investment, or sell all of the first publishing of any, IDK 1,000-2,000, first printing.  she gets her royalty from the second printing , IDK a buck or so per book.  The publisher's plan is to make some money, duh. Not over night; some higher priced sales but, long term.
> 
> And the reason they're in MOMA and other art museums is not b/c they're copies of catalogs and stuff, or lucky the publisher has connections, not at all. They're art, listed in the international archives, same place Picasso is. That's 50-60 buck stuff,. if U an art collector, , yet, merely 15-20, on the rack.
> 
> Disclaimer:  left her name and title of her books including  the cover title of  4 book set out b/c I ain't pitching her books here. Don't want to derail this topic and as it's not the buy//sell forum, I got your message the first time, IDK your 1st or 2nd post, 'Scott's book'  and enjoy your input TyeDye, much good stuff contributed to topic and thread. And I know you mean no harm, for sure, just trying to be helpful,  but. let's not pitch sales eh?



I'm not "pitching sales" it's just an obviously needed book you should think about looking at before kicking me in the shins for it. I have other bike books too, because they are helpful. And, so you know, I paid like $35.00 for it three years ago on eBay. Other good and helpful people here share catalog pages, stuff from books they have, etc.  They do it why I did--to be helpful. (My turn to drop the Mic and grin.)

Deb


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## BFGforme (Apr 6, 2019)

You guys and gal think this is CWC kinda looks like it, Mead badged..


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## mrg (Apr 6, 2019)

Post war regular straight bar.


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## BFGforme (Apr 6, 2019)

mrg said:


> Post war regular straight bar.



Made by who?


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## mrg (Apr 6, 2019)

better pic of frame behind seat would tell.


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## BFGforme (Apr 6, 2019)

Okay, already bailed fenders for now!


Here's#


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## mrg (Apr 6, 2019)

Earlier I was just trying to say it much easier to compare like models, The Tall tank, Slang for the " A " model that replaced the Supreme and seemed to use different striping/accents even using Opalescent colors. I don't think they are in the color charts but in the model description, the Western Flyer version used standard colors but Supreme accents and all 3 chain guards and started with a different rack but ended with the same as Roadmaster. WF were skip tooth Roadmaster's were 1/2 in. not enough around to really tell and things changed because of wartime shortages, bikes were not a priority. Phil has some great threads on here from way back but hard to find sometimes.


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## mrg (Apr 6, 2019)

Wow, I think you need to start a whole new thread on this one, that looks like a whole different animal, chain-stays & seat post clamp look prewar Schwinn but the dropouts look much later and not Schwinn ?,  Ranger always bought last years surplus but that's weird, who the Ranger expert here ?, may want to ask
*@markivpedalpusher or @cyclingday*


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## BFGforme (Apr 6, 2019)

mrg said:


> Wow, I think you need to start a whole new thread on this one, that looks like a whole different animal, chain-stays & seat post clamp look prewar Schwinn but the dropouts look much later and not Schwinn ?,  Ranger always bought last years surplus but that's weird, who the Ranger expert here ?, may want to ask
> *@markivpedalpusher or @cyclingday*
> 
> 
> View attachment 976529



Has ranger sticker on the seat tube
... Worth anything to anyone? Not schwinn, not my thang! Anyone's interested PM? Idk


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## Jeff54 (Apr 7, 2019)

TieDye said:


> Then explain why they talk about their new fully enclosed chainguard for 1941? Like shown on this bike here. Before this style they were totally different.
> 
> View attachment 976361



That's the thing, the thing about manufacturing and continuously competing with others, like autos but obviously simpler. Seasonally they're likely to be planning  for whatever changes or new styled parts, Patents if applicable ect.  in spring for the next years line. Around august, as that 1940 ad illustrates, with new 1941 chain guard, frame and other goodies  Looking for September's back to school sales. the Shops have been retooled to suit and by July/Aug. built and stocked with the newest line.  September - December they're building stock for Xmas. After Xmas  in full production, weeding out last years line if not at factory then stores. January -41's line is the first full or whole  year of manufacturing. Just about  like Auto's sales.  Schwinn's serial numbers do about the same. 63 sting-rays. I've an Aug 54 Schwinn American/corvette frame but corvette's and new type of middleweight  were not publicly announced or ran promotions until spring of 55. It wouldn't be a proto type, just next year's new bike, geared up for back to schools sales.  One thing is for sure, CWC grew fast, hit the market in 35 and not long after; 38-39 or so,  giving Schwinn one hell of a run. IDK about other manufactures and all the build dates, but I suspect like autos, ya had to be set up to go with the new, following year,  by august or lose. Certainly that 1940 advertisement for 1940 Sept  Labor day sales of 41's lines proves it.  The moral to this story is, entry cut off dates, just like autos, in serial numbers and new styles, etc.  don't happen in January but during the summer of the previous year.


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## Jeff54 (Apr 7, 2019)

BFGforme said:


> You guys and gal think this is CWC kinda looks like it, Mead badged..View attachment 976493
> View attachment 976494
> 
> View attachment 976492



hate to say it but, that's a Frankenstein, fantasy bike CWC fake. IDK if fenders repainted but that 50's frame is, fenders are or were prewar CWC so, if not repainted the builder painted the frame and failed to copy it correctly too, to suite like a prewar. nobody curved their frame darts extending from front post. , of the greatest mistake copy-cat painters do. .  ya got a lot of mis-matched parts sprocket is not CWC and  that badge never happened on that frame or any CWC,.A 50s frame, heck could be a 60's too.  That sprocket, not being CWC indicates the fame ain't cwc as well. whatever was original to this bike, now has nearly nothing left on it. Otherwise known as a Fantasy bike. And the badge may have been added to fool people too.


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## BFGforme (Apr 7, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> hate to say it but, that's a Frankenstein, fantasy bike. IDK if fenders repainted but that 50's frame is, fenders are or were prewar so, if not repainted the builder painted the frame and failed to copy it correctly too, to suite.  ya got a lot of mis-matched parts sprocket and  that badge never happened on that frame, on a 50s frame, heck could be a 60's too.  whatever was original to this bike, now has nearly nothing left on it. Otherwise known as a Fantasy bike. And the badge may have been added to fool people too.



Okay, Mead stamped into the seat clamp and drop out!


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## BFGforme (Apr 7, 2019)

I know the fenders didn't come on it cuz has a extra hole in back one and color is different from the frame.


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## Jeff54 (Apr 7, 2019)

BFGforme said:


> I know the fenders didn't come on it cuz has a extra hole in back one and color is different from the frame.



Sell the old parts and junk that frame. you'd get, like, more, than double your money for value in parts than selling a fake. I doubt you'd even find a buyer here for that frame. fantasy paints do not go well here or ebay. Or just ride it as is, prob get plenty looks and complements as well. t ought to work good enough too, .  you would not have to tell anybody it's a fake, while riding or owning that is, unless bump into a CWC and or Schwinn-Mead collector.U try and sell I as real, and  U been told, you'll gt knocked for foolery. . [wink]


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## all riders (Jul 17, 2020)

The tell-tale on that one should be the area behind the seat---two short seat stays that die into a "fork" for the rest of the seat stay---crown of fork serves as fender brace. Plenty others are like that, just not exactly--someone should recognize.


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## Archie Sturmer (Jul 19, 2020)

This was an old thread, and a long read even back in 2019.  I believe that a new thread may have been started for the blue bicycle; maybe an obscure Manton & Smith Chicago.


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