# Does anyone here know how to tell a real Major Taylor stem from a non MT?



## bricycle (Oct 29, 2018)

Does the Ankh symbol have anything to do with it? always wanted to know this as I have had several. Thanks.


----------



## bike (Oct 29, 2018)

You have to have provenance it came from one of his bikes........
no really I dont think there was a brand or design that was ALWAYS Major Taylor but I welcome challenge
at least look at pix! They are avail from members and the magical Google...........
I Would like to know the answer as well-- thanks Bri
=pg


----------



## locomotion (Oct 29, 2018)

bricycle said:


> Does the Ankh symbol have anything to do with it? always wanted to know this as I have had several. Thanks.




that is a very good question, I always wonder the same as well
I think the actual MT stem is round, not diamond shape.

looking forward to reading the replies


----------



## mongeese (Oct 29, 2018)

They were tools to measure for a solid stem and somehow just made it to the race tracks due to finances.


----------



## bricycle (Oct 29, 2018)

they were born from a need to get the center of gravity further forward and help prevent front wheel slip.


----------



## anders1 (Oct 30, 2018)

It’s true that MT raced with the round top tube for mot of his career. I read that later he collaborated with the Accles & Pollock Tubing Co. to create the angular “no slip” top tube.


----------



## anders1 (Oct 30, 2018)




----------



## catfish (Oct 30, 2018)




----------



## catfish (Oct 30, 2018)




----------



## catfish (Oct 30, 2018)




----------



## catfish (Oct 30, 2018)




----------



## anders1 (Oct 30, 2018)

anders1 said:


> It’s true that MT raced with the round top tube for mot of his career. I read that later he collaborated with the Accles & Pollock Tubing Co. to create the angular “no slip” top tube.



With this being the case, “the actual “ MT stem is the diomand shape tube by his design. Even though we always see the earlier pics with the round tube. With the diomand shape coming later in his career I imagine their are very few pics of him using it. I would love to see one...


----------



## anders1 (Oct 30, 2018)

anders1 said:


> With this being the case, “the actual “ MT stem is the diomand shape tube by his design. Even though we always see the earlier pics with the round tube. With the diomand shape coming later in his career I imagine their are very few pics of him using it. I would love to see one...



The above information was shared with me so I don’t know if it is factual information or not?


----------



## anders1 (Oct 30, 2018)




----------



## mongeese (Oct 30, 2018)

Here is an uncommon made stem from the era


----------



## bricycle (Oct 30, 2018)

mongeese said:


> Here is an uncommon made stem from the era View attachment 892536
> View attachment 892537
> 
> View attachment 892538



seen one once, like an up-side-down Mead stem.


----------



## redline1968 (Oct 30, 2018)

Here’s one


----------



## mongeese (Oct 30, 2018)

Here’s some stays you may have never seen.


----------



## shoe3 (Nov 2, 2018)

bricycle said:


> Does the Ankh symbol have anything to do with it? always wanted to know this as I have had several. Thanks.



From my understanding the first Major Taylor stem was mfg. by Worksman Cycle in NY. I believe later at some point Taylor may have lost pat. rights or was beat out of any profit from the stem.


----------



## fordsnake (Nov 10, 2018)

Has anyone ever seen a photograph of Major Taylor with an extension stem other than the popular circular tube stem?




Taylor's autobiography (which reads like a personal journal) it’s a good account of the milestones in his life. Unless I missed something when reading it, there's no reference or mentioning of producing or endorsing a "stem". However, he openly admits to adopting and pioneering an existing one.




The circular tube extension stem seen in many of the photographs of Major Taylor was designed and made by Bradshaw Jack, an English bike maker in 1900. It’s possible Taylor was introduced to the stem while racing in Europe?




The no-slip Accles & Pollock (squared tube) stem, often called the Major Taylor stem is also British made. The company founded in 1896, originally produced steel tubing for bicycle frames. It’s possible the Englishman Bradshaw Jack sold his design and patent to A&P for production and later incorporated the no-slip diamond tubing as a "new" feature and ostensibly credited Major Taylor?  (this is pure speculation on my part).



This is the stamped Ankh on the bottom of my stem, I was told it's an A&P stamping, but I've never found the registered symbol.


The chances of Taylor being involved with creating, restyling, or modifying the stem is highly unlikely…why? Because of his manager Louis “Birdie” Munger, the man who plucked him out of a tempestuous world of racism and made him a champion!




Munger (an ex-cycling champion) helicoptered over Taylor's career; he was so intertwined that Taylor wouldn't make a move without Munger's advice or counsel. This is germane, because if Taylor had pursued a novel bicycle "stem" rest assured Munger would have contracts drawn for Taylor to be handsomely compensated for his involvement! (Taylor did his share of product endorsements).The two were a formidable team and they benefited lucratively over the years. Plus, Munger would have promoted the hell out of Taylor’s endorsement in the newspapers and trade pubs!





Louis “Birdie” Munger wasn’t just a trainer, coach and manager, he was a self-made businessman. When he wasn’t training Taylor, he was occupied with the operations and the production of some reputable wheels manufactured by his companies.






Additionally, Birdie was an inventor with several US patents under his belt! He knew how to navigate the US patent operations; securing, protecting and selling ideas...after all Munger’s father worked for the US patent office and exposed Birdie to the world of inventions!

If you thought applying for a US patent was a cake walk…this read will give you a new perspective (Cycle Age 1900)





Subsequently, Birdies patents paid off and made him a wealthy man!!!



Here’s the rub, Munger was also Taylor’s financial advisor – looking after the champion’s “interest”. Munger died a rich man. Its hard to imagine that Birdie wouldn't installed some safe guards for Taylor's money? A modest royalty check may have kept Taylor afloat during some rough patches...instead, three years after Birdie's death, Major Taylor died destitute and penniless!


Until there’s documented evidence that shows Taylor's involvement with an extension stem…the only conclusion that can be drawn is that while he was alive, he did not endorse or produce a stem. Everything that has been made was done so without his involvement! However the gesture of publicly connecting his name to the extension stem – and crediting him for something he pioneered and introduced to racing...is a well deserved posthumous honor!


----------



## bricycle (Nov 10, 2018)

Thanks for all the great info Carlton!


----------



## locomotion (Nov 11, 2018)

fordsnake said:


> Has anyone ever seen a photograph of Major Taylor with an extension stem other than the popular circular tube stem?
> View attachment 899145
> 
> Taylor's autobiography (which reads like a personal journal) it’s a good account of the milestones in his life. Unless I missed something when reading it, there's no reference or mentioning of producing or endorsing a "stem". However, he openly admits to adopting and pioneering an existing one.
> ...




good dissertation .... good thought process
man I would love to be able to find that Massey Silver Ribbon bicycle !!!


----------



## David Brown (Nov 11, 2018)

About 14 years ago in hindsight  I could  of bought this  1904 CCM  Massey  Harris Model 17  Track  racer   in N







ew Zealand when I was there. I think the bike is in Australia now.
 O well. Has Hussey Bar stem. In my catalog it says 28in Westwood steel or Laminated wood racing rims


----------



## locomotion (Nov 12, 2018)

David Brown said:


> About 14 years ago in hindsight  I could  of bought this  1904 CCM  Massey  Harris Model 17  Track  racer   in NView attachment 900005
> 
> View attachment 900008
> 
> ...




very nice bicycle David, thanks for sharing
the good old days of having actual pictures of bikes 
now we have to take pictures of pictures to share, crazy how times change fast

but how do you date a pre-1917 CCM to specifically 1904???

Max


----------



## David Brown (Nov 12, 2018)

As far a correct dating, I am really not sure . This bike was  a Model 17 which shows up in there 1905 catalog.


----------



## corbettclassics (Nov 12, 2018)

It does appear to have the earlier chainring for the Model #7 rather than the chainring for the Model #17.  Definitely a #17 though because of the fork crown and not the #7.

 It's such a great bike and very rare to find one for sale these days.  I've looked for 25 yrs with no luck but it would most likely show up in Australia if you were to get lucky and find one.

Dave - do you still have pics of the Model #7 Special Racer?  I'll go and post the Massey Harris stuff in the "TOC RACER" thread.


----------



## David Brown (Nov 12, 2018)

Yes I still have the catalog showing the Model 7 special racer. The model  17  posted above does have the earlier sprocket   than the  model 17 in my 1905 catalog. The bike above does have a Marked  CCM made Hussey bar dated 1901


----------



## dnc1 (Nov 12, 2018)

Accles & Pollock were still selling them as "Major Taylor" stems in 1952, image from their catalogue (can be seen in full on the V-CC library site).....


----------



## fordsnake (Nov 12, 2018)

dnc1 said:


> Accles & Pollock were still selling them as "Major Taylor" stems in 1952, image from their catalogue (can be seen in full on the V-CC library site).....




This is a great find! Now, the question is when did Accles & Pollock first produced the stem and if MT was involved? Apparently A&P produced an expanded their range of sports and leisure equipment in the late 1940’s...not sure if the stem was introduced then? I've reached out to the Sandwell Archives in the UK, they're the historical service for the Access & Pollock Company. Hopefully, they can enlighten us to A&P's involvement and the timeline of this stem?


----------



## shoe3 (Nov 12, 2018)

Some early Stems that were slideable, not quite like Major Taylor type.






7


----------



## locomotion (Nov 13, 2018)

shoe3 said:


> Some early Stems that were slideable, not quite like Major Taylor type.View attachment 900496
> 
> View attachment 900497
> 7




crazy cool stems, good find
machinist in the early 1900 sure liked to make things complicated! but oh so cool looking.
imagine how time consuming they must have been to machine


----------



## dnc1 (Nov 13, 2018)

shoe3 said:


> Some early Stems that were slideable, not quite like Major Taylor type.View attachment 900496
> 
> View attachment 900497
> 7



Wow! That N.A.Bille patented model would have made for an interesting ride experience!


----------



## fordsnake (Nov 19, 2018)

I received an email today from the Access & Pollock archive service in England regarding any involvement, endorsement or a relationship with the champion Major Taylor and the ankh stamping. The email sums up what I had thought...there is no documented evidence of Major Taylor's participation in the company's archives. Accles & Pollock probably used his name as a way to market their product. I doubt that the company ever had to pay for his name! Before Jan. 1, 1978, the public domain laws were more flexible and less constrained, public domain was often based on the creator's life plus a certain number of years after death. Since Taylor's first burial was in an unmarked grave...I'm guessing his estate or any Major Taylor entity during the time ever protested the usage of his name?


----------



## bricycle (Nov 19, 2018)

Cool stuff Carlton!


----------



## shoe3 (Nov 20, 2018)

cant find ad from bicycle magazine 1907 era selling round Major Taylor stems from worksman cycle Ny Ny!


----------



## fordsnake (Nov 21, 2018)

shoe3 said:


> cant find ad from bicycle magazine 1907 era selling round Major Taylor stems from worksman cycle Ny Ny!



 Was the ad marketing a Major Taylor stem or just an extension stem? It shouldn't be that hard to find the connection to Worksman Cycle...they've been around since 1898 and are headquartered in Ozone Park in Queens in NYC. If you'd like I can send an inquiry about a 1907 Taylor connection?


----------



## shoe3 (Nov 21, 2018)

I sent request for information, they said they did not keep any information about the company's early history. The ad I saw was a actual Major Taylor stem. Not sure what they called it.


----------



## mongeese (Nov 21, 2018)




----------



## Euphman06 (Oct 1, 2020)

This was a good read. Any further developments? Found this website, looks like this is the only bike left that he raced? 









						Only known Major Taylor bike is selling on Ebay
					

This 111 year old bike is the only one in existence that was raced by Major Taylor. He was the USA's first black superstar athlete, who fought constant racism…




					thechainlink.org


----------



## David Francis (Jul 15, 2021)

David Brown said:


> Yes I still have the catalog showing the Model 7 special racer. The model  17  posted above does have the earlier sprocket   than the  model 17 in my 1905 catalog. The bike above does have a Marked  CCM made Hussey bar dated 1901



David is it possible to access your copy of the 1905 catalogue


----------



## Jim sciano (Dec 12, 2021)

I just found this accles and pollock stem on a old racing bike I picked up. Unfortunately no frame identification other than a serial number of 100.


----------



## dnc1 (Dec 13, 2021)

bricycle said:


> Does the Ankh symbol have anything to do with it? always wanted to know this as I have had several. Thanks.






fordsnake said:


> Has anyone ever seen a photograph of Major Taylor with an extension stem other than the popular circular tube stem?
> View attachment 899145
> 
> Taylor's autobiography (which reads like a personal journal) it’s a good account of the milestones in his life. Unless I missed something when reading it, there's no reference or mentioning of producing or endorsing a "stem". However, he openly admits to adopting and pioneering an existing one.
> ...






fordsnake said:


> This is a great find! Now, the question is when did Accles & Pollock first produced the stem and if MT was involved? Apparently A&P produced an expanded their range of sports and leisure equipment in the late 1940’s...not sure if the stem was introduced then? I've reached out to the Sandwell Archives in the UK, they're the historical service for the Access & Pollock Company. Hopefully, they can enlighten us to A&P's involvement and the timeline of this stem?






fordsnake said:


> I received an email today from the Access & Pollock archive service in England regarding any involvement, endorsement or a relationship with the champion Major Taylor and the ankh stamping. The email sums up what I had thought...there is no documented evidence of Major Taylor's participation in the company's archives. Accles & Pollock probably used his name as a way to market their product. I doubt that the company ever had to pay for his name! Before Jan. 1, 1978, the public domain laws were more flexible and less constrained, public domain was often based on the creator's life plus a certain number of years after death. Since Taylor's first burial was in an unmarked grave...I'm guessing his estate or any Major Taylor entity during the time ever protested the usage of his name?
> View attachment 904462



I don't think that the Sandwell Archives put too much effort into their research for you @fordsnake.

I've just found this advert from 1927, stating that the 'Ankh' is a trademark. It wasn't mentioned in a similar advert from 1922 however. 
I also discovered that Accles and Pollock were only in existence as a company from 1901 onwards.

From July 1927.....





...when they registered it as a trademark is still open to question.
More digging required.


----------



## dperry (Dec 13, 2021)

While trying to identify one of these stems, found this Major Taylor "Outrigger" MT.15 stem in 1970 catalog of Big Wheel Ltd.




Assuming this one is Accles & Pollock, but cannot say if that stamp on quill is an ankh.


----------



## Jim sciano (Dec 13, 2021)

dperry said:


> While trying to identify one of these stems, found this Major Taylor "Outrigger" MT.15 stem in 1970 catalog of Big Wheel Ltd.
> View attachment 1526996
> 
> Assuming this one is Accles & Pollock, but cannot say if that stamp on quill is an ankh.
> ...



On my post above (#41), the first pic of the stem has that same OT type stamp on the bottom. The second picture, it is very difficult to make out but it says A&P made in England. I would assume yours is probably an A&P


----------



## dnc1 (Dec 14, 2021)

dperry said:


> While trying to identify one of these stems, found this Major Taylor "Outrigger" MT.15 stem in 1970 catalog of Big Wheel Ltd.
> View attachment 1526996
> 
> Assuming this one is Accles & Pollock, but cannot say if that stamp on quill is an ankh.
> ...




As the 'Ankh' is basically an 'O' atop a 'T', it wouldn't be remiss to think that yours is a slight error in the hand stamping process.
Also, in the advert you posted, just above the "Major Taylor" stem it mentions 'Kromo' tubing.

'Kromo' was A.& P's own brand of tubing.....






...by 1970 A.& P. was still part of the T.I. group.

Here's another ad from 1926, which pushes the use of the 'Ankh' definitely another year earlier.....


----------

