# another phantom !



## 5760rj (Sep 24, 2017)

Would appreciate help in determining the real value of a schwinn phantom frames, came across two of them in trade from other hobby ha, every one seems to have phantom frames but no assisories or parts where I live. ok here goes, excellent condition but paint theme for phantom is not original and the one thats on the frame is poorly done serial number G400176 production possibly 10/18/1950 any feed back would be appreciated, thanks......


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## the tinker (Sep 24, 2017)

$40 and no more. Expensive bike to build, as there are plenty of  Phantoms out there.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 24, 2017)

Without original paint it may not have even been a Phantom. Canti frames are plentiful and unless you plan to do a rat/custom I wouldn't mess with them. V/r Shawn


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## 5760rj (Sep 24, 2017)

the tinker said:


> $40 and no more. Expensive bike to build, as there are plenty of  Phantoms out there.



thank you..


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## 5760rj (Sep 24, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> Without original paint it may not have even been a Phantom. Canti frames are plentiful and unless you plan to do a rat/custom I wouldn't mess with them. V/r Shawn



thank you for the advice, I do have a custom coming along but seem to run into these in my dealings locally here and always dismantled or with somebodys Leonardo DaVinca paint can special in rainbow colors.....


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## Cooper S. (Sep 24, 2017)

I don't think $40 is a realistic value, If i ever saw one for 40 I'd pick it up. I don't think I've ever seen one for under $250. But I only joined this hobby recently


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## Freqman1 (Sep 24, 2017)

Cooper S. said:


> I don't think $40 is a realistic value, If i ever saw one for 40 I'd pick it up. I don't think I've ever seen one for under $250. But I only joined this hobby recently




For a bare, post war, canti frame? Have I got some deals for you! A pre war canti frame is a whole different ball game though. V/r Shawn


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## Cooper S. (Sep 24, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> For a bare, post war, canti frame? Have I got some deals for you! A pre war canti frame is a whole different ball game though. V/r Shawn



That frame is clearly not bare, and it's not being sold as a "a bare post war canti" a regular post war frame may not be any different that a phantom frame, but most people (especially entry collectors) will pay up for the claim that it's a phantom frame


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## Freqman1 (Sep 24, 2017)

Cooper S. said:


> That frame is clearly not bare, and it's not being sold as a "a bare post war canti" a regular post war frame may not be any different that a phantom frame, but most people (especially entry collectors) will pay up for the claim that it's a phantom frame




Are we looking at the same frame? it has the bottom bearing cups and nothing else. That is what I call a bare frame. If you are talking about the repaint, to me, that has absolutely no affect on value. If it were a clean, original paint frame then it would have some additional value but as said above Phantoms are plentiful and to build one from a frame is not cost effective. V/r Shawn


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## Cooper S. (Sep 24, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> Are we looking at the same frame? it has the bottom bearing cups and nothing else. That is what I call a bare frame. If you are talking about the repaint, to me, that has absolutely no affect on value. If it were a clean, original paint frame then it would have some additional value but as said above Phantoms are plentiful and to build one from a frame is not cost effective. V/r Shawn
> View attachment 681562



Outside of a swap meet setting, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find any postwar canti frame for $40, especially if you plan on using eBay. Hell, you could probably sell that frame instantly if you listed it for $40 plus shipping. Phantoms maybe plentiful and costly, but every collector has at one point wanted one.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 24, 2017)

Cooper S. said:


> Outside of a swap meet setting, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find any postwar canti frame for $40, especially if you plan on using eBay. Hell, you could probably sell that frame instantly if you listed it for $40 plus shipping. Phantoms maybe plentiful and costly, but every collector has at one point wanted one.




This post is starting to remind me of the line from "Cool Hand Luke"  "Uh what we have here is a failure to communicate"! First, you are assuming this IS a Phantom frame. How could that be proved? If you think a genuine Phantom frame is worth $250 and then to build one is at least another $1300 to have a pieced together bike for a little over $1500 when I can find a decent original in the $1200 range and if I really shop it can probably pick up something a little crusty for under a grand. It still don't make sense to me but then what do I know? V/r Shawn


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## the tinker (Sep 24, 2017)

Inflated prices on Ebay are just that.  I sold this Black Phantom last week for 800.


 I sold this green one three weeks ago for 850. The green one below was 100 % original, with the exception of a nice set of 1995 Typhoon tires. The black one was original with the exception of bars, saddle , fenders and rear reflector.Both bikes went to fellow Cabers.

 The replaced parts  were all 1995 Schwinn re-issue, not the after-market crap that is being sold today. Both were 1951 models, and were never rust buckets, or pieced together from frames.If I had advertised them on the Cabe, I would have gotten more.....maybe.
The Black Phantoms are nice bikes, but rare classics they are not. It's a common bike, and unless it belonged to someone special in your life, to restore a bare bones frame is a waste of time and money. I will say this, if the frame has nice original paint and decal, maybe 60. Yours do not. Forty bucks is tops.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 24, 2017)

the tinker said:


> Inflated prices on Ebay are just that.  I sold this Black Phantom last week for 800.View attachment 681668 I sold this green one three weeks ago for 850. The green one below was 100 % original, with the exception of a nice set of 1995 Typhoon tires. The black one was original with the exception of bars, saddle , fenders and rear reflector.Both bikes went to fellow Cabers.View attachment 681669 The replaced parts  were all 1995 Schwinn re-issue, not the after-market crap that is being sold today. Both were 1951 models, and were never rust buckets, or pieced together from frames.If I had advertised them on the Cabe, I would have gotten more.....maybe.
> The Black Phantoms are nice bikes, but rare classics they are not. It's a common bike, and unless it belonged to someone special in your life, to restore a bare bones frame is a waste of time and money. I will say this, if the frame has nice original paint and decal, maybe 60. Yours do not. Forty bucks is tops.




The defense rests your honor! I will say someone got some good deals on those bikes Dave--guess I need to live closer to you! V/r Shawn


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## 5760rj (Sep 24, 2017)

Cooper S. said:


> I don't think $40 is a realistic value, If i ever saw one for 40 I'd pick it up. I don't think I've ever seen one for under $250. But I only joined this hobby recently



seems to be now days the going price on ebay, which people seem to use like the kelly blue book, all I've ever known is I love ridding them that's it, now im older looking back and wanting something special and saw a phantom and wanted one, just this last time, Ha ha...my hobbies from the past were vintage cars and antiques which was a expensive addiction in it's self and now bicycles? you know where this is heading? started bidding on ebay one part at a time, I have learned do not bid on ebay one part at a time what a mistake!!! I used the wrong thinking on the wrong hobby but I lucked out, I won a listing on a bike part and asked the seller about availability of other bike parts the seller was Bob U. a real perfectionist and knowledgeable in restoration of bicycles I know, Bob took my parts added his parts and returned to me a 53 Schwinn Black Phantom, "Wow" what a beautiful bicycle, I remember telling him that this is my last project this is it, well that was over a year ago and im still buying from Bob and still finding phantom frames,


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## ZE52414 (Sep 24, 2017)

I have a OG paint frame I'd sell for 125$ plus flight. It's in the for sale section


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## WES PINCHOT (Sep 24, 2017)

DOUBLE POST!
SORRY!


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## WES PINCHOT (Sep 24, 2017)

ZE52414 said:


> I have a OG paint frame I'd sell for 125$ plus flight. It's in the for sale section



THAT'S A REASONABLE PRICE IN MY OPINION.
OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO CUT SOME SLACK IN A FINAL NEGOTIATION!


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## vincev (Sep 24, 2017)

the tinker said:


> Inflated prices on Ebay are just that.  I sold this Black Phantom last week for 800.View attachment 681668 I sold this green one three weeks ago for 850. The green one below was 100 % original, with the exception of a nice set of 1995 Typhoon tires. The black one was original with the exception of bars, saddle , fenders and rear reflector.Both bikes went to fellow Cabers.View attachment 681669 The replaced parts  were all 1995 Schwinn re-issue, not the after-market crap that is being sold today. Both were 1951 models, and were never rust buckets, or pieced together from frames.If I had advertised them on the Cabe, I would have gotten more.....maybe.
> The Black Phantoms are nice bikes, but rare classics they are not. It's a common bike, and unless it belonged to someone special in your life, to restore a bare bones frame is a waste of time and money. I will say this, if the frame has nice original paint and decal, maybe 60. Yours do not. Forty bucks is tops.



I would have jumped on the green one at that price.


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## 5760rj (Sep 24, 2017)

vincev said:


> I would have jumped on the green one at that price.



your way of looking at things is logical and at that time I was just getting into it, Bob U. told me one of the most expensive was to piece it together in this way, better to buy it complete then restore it, what you sold would of been a great buy for me, timing is everything, thanks again.....


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## the tinker (Sep 25, 2017)

5760rj said:


> your way of looking at things is logical and at that time I was just getting into it, Bob U. told me one of the most expensive was to piece it together in this way, better to buy it complete then restore it, what you sold would of been a great buy for me, timing is everything, thanks again.....



Paying too much for questionable parts can be a big turn-off in this hobby. I have bought frames and bikes in the past , only to get that " Why did I buy this  thing for?" feeling later. Then, I try to re-sell my mistake and sadly realize I'am going to take it in the shorts trying to get rid of it. All of us have done that.
I paid 1000 for the Black Phantom pictured. Kept it almost 15 years and did absolutely nothing to it , other to keep it clean. I had so much fun riding  that bike , I didn't mind selling it for less. The person that bought it had $cash$ in his hand, and picked it up. I paid  $250  for the green one two years ago . I happened to have a nice set of fenders for it, I bought many years ago for about 20 bucks. I also had some green chubby grips , new bars, S2's and the typhoon tires, so my investment in the bike wasn't too much. That bike looked pretty sad when I got it, but  it cleaned up nice. I have owned 5 phantoms. They are nice bikes, and I got my first one back in 58. I sold it in 1963 for $4. and the kid came back the next day demanding his money back. I think his dad told him he paid twice as much as it was worth, which he did. It was hard to get rid of ballooners back then. Hobbies should be for fun only.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 25, 2017)

5760rj said:


> your way of looking at things is logical and at that time I was just getting into it, Bob U. told me one of the most expensive was to piece it together in this way, better to buy it complete then restore it, what you sold would of been a great buy for me, timing is everything, thanks again.....





Buy complete, original and leave it alone! Twice as hard to sell restored than original paint bikes. V/r Shawn


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## 2jakes (Oct 1, 2017)

5760rj said:


> Would appreciate help in determining the real value of a schwinn phantom frames, came across two of them in trade from other hobby ha, every one seems to have phantom frames but no assisories or parts where I live. ok here goes, excellent condition but paint theme for phantom is not original and the one thats on the frame is poorly done serial number G400176 production possibly 10/18/1950 any feed back would be appreciated, thanks......View attachment 681330




I’ve been collecting Phantoms for over 20 years. Have enough parts that I would have
no problem putting one together.
But this would be what I call a “frankenstein”  creation.

As has been said already, best thing is to get as complete a bike as possible.
If you should find a complete original, check the forum  before attempting to do
a “home" restoration. Unless you are an expert and can do it right, otherwise the
value will go down “pronto”.


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## 5760rj (Oct 1, 2017)

2jakes said:


> I’ve been collecting Phantoms for over 20 years. Have enough parts that I would have
> no problem putting one together.
> But this would be what I call a “frankenstein”  creation.
> 
> ...



I completely agree with that, and from what other members have also stated, as for value it seems to swing from one side to another, I have read old sales on frames on this site that would tell me that this frame in this state is not expensive but its not dirt cheap either, but seeing the prices of really nice frames on this site that sold (phantom )  as well as ebay listed frames that sold and what I traded into I am going to put it to good use, but yes at first I did make a costly mistake at starting from the ground up and the only thing that made it happen was Bob U. if I would of had the locals here finish it like chrome, paint, detail, upholstery it would of turned out looking like a cheap Taiwan copy like a few I have seen restored but from parts used were from other years or to new or never came on that particular phantom or year, I've made mistake as well to many, and probably will make a few more but it's getting better ha ha I tell myself, thank God for Bob and a few others and there experience in this field and giving me a reality check in this hobby


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## 2jakes (Oct 1, 2017)

5760rj said:


> I completely agree with that, and from what other members have also stated, as for value it seems to swing from one side to another, I have read old sales on frames on this site that would tell me that this frame in this state is not expensive but its not dirt cheap either, but seeing the prices of really nice frames on this site that sold (phantom )  as well as ebay listed frames that sold and what I traded into I am going to put it to good use, but yes at first I did make a costly mistake at starting from the ground up and the only thing that made it happen was Bob U. if I would of had the locals here finish it like chrome, paint, detail, upholstery it would of turned out looking like a cheap Taiwan copy like a few I have seen restored but from parts used were from other years or to new or never came on that particular phantom or year, I've made mistake as well to many, and probably will make a few more but it's getting better ha ha I tell myself, thank God for Bob and a few others and there experience in this field and giving me a reality check in this hobby




My first year, desperate, I completely built one from what ever I could find. I lived where there were
plenty of “swap” meets, flea markets and thrift shops and was able to gather parts throughout the year.
I enjoyed doing it and the cost was spread out.
Later, I was able to afford it, I acquired complete bikes in original condition and have learned to leave
them alone, keep them as original as possible and still enjoy riding them. That’s my take on bikes from the past.

As far as price or value....you are going to see a variety of figures from everyone.
With time, you will see what the going rate would be for a certain item.
Much depends on originality, condition, where it was made and how rare the item is.

I bought an original Schwinn bicycle ringer for $5 at a thrift shop.
“It’s a kid’s bike ringer”, the seller told me.

At a swap meet, the same type of ringer, the asking price was  $100.
“It’s a very rare item by Schwinn”, the seller told me!


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## 5760rj (Oct 1, 2017)

2jakes said:


> I’ve been collecting Phantoms for over 20 years. Have enough parts that I would have
> no problem putting one together.
> But this would be what I call a “frankenstein”  creation.
> 
> ...



could I ask you a question about phantoms, what was a difficult part to find


2jakes said:


> My first year, desperate, I completely built one from what ever I could find. I lived where there were
> plenty of “swap” meets, flea markets and thrift shops and was able to gather parts throughout the year.
> I enjoyed doing it and the cost was spread out.
> Later, I was able to afford it, I acquired complete bikes in original condition and have learned to leave
> them alone, keep them as original as possible and still enjoy riding them. That’s my take on bikes from the past.




I think thats how it starts out for many collectors and hobbyists, with me it was the innocent excitement of making a project come together but as time spent on a computer glaring into a screen of deception and I mean deception, until I got with the program and started learning that whats listed and what is stated didnt match and shouldnt create a buying frenzy on my part thinking there will never be another one HA! and then relisted after I bought one, during your times and possibly today of collecting phantoms and parts, what seems to be in very short supply and harder to find in hardware? for me it's been the A.S. stem bolt, and this quests still continues......


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## 2jakes (Oct 1, 2017)

5760rj said:


> could I ask you a question about phantoms, what was a difficult part to find
> 
> 
> I think thats how it starts out for many collectors and hobbyists, with me it was the innocent excitement of making a project come together but as time spent on a computer glaring into a screen of deception and I mean deception, until I got with the program and started learning that whats listed and what is stated didnt match and shouldnt create a buying frenzy on my part thinking there will never be another one HA! and then relisted after I bought one, during your times and possibly today of collecting phantoms and parts, what seems to be in very short supply and harder to find in hardware? for me it's been the A.S. stem bolt, and this quests still continues......




The  hardest part for me was the glass lens for my 1934 Schwinn AeroCycle tank.
I had to have one fabricated by a man in Kentucky. It was not cheap, but the work was fantastic.

I have been very fortunate with bicycles & parts.
I used to have a friend who worked for the city code compliance.
He would tell me...
“Hey jake, there’s a building that’s got those “Peewee Herman” stuff you like!”

I knew what he meant. 
I’d go over & pay the owner to have a look see and take what ever I
could find before the caterpillar tore the building down.


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## 5760rj (Oct 1, 2017)

2jakes said:


> The  hardest part for me was the glass lens for my 1934 Schwinn AeroCycle tank.
> I had to have one fabricated by a man in Kentucky. It was not cheap, but the work was fantastic.
> 
> I have been very fortunate with bicycles & parts.
> ...




ive been involved in car restoration for years, and have seen miracles brought back to life (cars) and listened to horror stories about change of ownership and what that person did to a very rare car, a CATERPILLAR you say, my heart sinks at the thought of even knowing let a lone of something happening like that, or standing there watching it, I have done the same thing at wrecking yards, junk yards oh I'm sorry I ment Auto Recycling Centers as I was corrected by the yard ower, sad day for me when I saw so many vintage and classic cars with all their history being crashed for the price of metal, assisories, stainless trim, hoods, rims seats all gone as each was flattened like a pancake, one's that I had not finished removing the valuables off of, I tried to convince the owner to sell to car clubs which would be happy to pay scrap metal price but don't destroy them, he said don't worry kid they'll be back as Toyota's, that was hard day for me to see so many go that way, row after row, as it is when I spot old stingrays and balloon tire bikes mostly vintage at times stacked in the back of a truck as high as they can taking them to mexico, I dont think theres one collector in any hobby that doesn't have a tragic story to tell.....


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