# How do I date my Paramount?



## cooltouch (Jun 3, 2022)

I was given this bike a couple weeks ago, but just yesterday I started looking at it with an eye toward getting it on the road again. And I've been doing some reading up on the Paramount series. Mine is a 15-speed, which tells me it shouldn't be any older than 1970, I think it is. I'm thinking the serial number will give me an indication, but I don't even know where it is on this bike. So I guess that's the first question I should ask -- where's the serial number?

When I finish this message, I'm gonna go out and examine it closely, see if I can find anything that looks like a serial number. I'll be back, because I'm sure I'm gonna have a lot of questions about this interesting looking machine.


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## Vicious Cycle (Jun 3, 2022)

On a P15 it should be found on the non-drive side rear drop out


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## Freqman1 (Jun 3, 2022)

The first question we ask is "where are the pics"?


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## cooltouch (Jun 3, 2022)

Ok, I took the following pics less than an hour ago. I would have taken more, but my camera's battery died. I have another to trade out with, but I thought I'd go ahead and post what I have.












These pics are of the bike in "as found" condition. I haven't done anything to it so far. As you can see, it will need some attention before I get it back on the road.  No tires or tubes, the rear axle is missing, the seat's pretty much roached, the controls for the derailleurs are missing entirely, the brake hardware is there, but the cables are broken or missing. And I suspect that weird looking rear derailleur system will need to be gone through completely. It has a generator, which appears to still be connected to the rear light, but the front light, if it existed, is missing entirely. The entire bike is chrome plated, but as you can see, it has pits. I'm gonna take some WD-40 and 0000 steel wool to it and see how much of the pitting I can remove. There's a Campagnolo decal down by the pedal hub, which I don't want to touch with my cleaning, and if I run across anything else that looks to be fragile, I'll steer clear of it as well.

I'm in a bit of a quandary as to what I should do with this bike. I'll be honest and up front with you folks. I plan to sell it. I have a nice Peugeot mountain bike that I actually like quite a bit, and I don't see any real reason to switch over to this Schwinn. But just because I plan to sell it, doesn't mean I don't want to give it the attention it deserves. I build and restore guitars, and each guitar that I take in to restore, I don't plan on keeping, but I'm gonna do the best restoration job on it I can. Well, I feel the same way about this bike -- within reason. I don't have an unlimited budget. So, one of the things I'd like to find out from you folks is, which way best optimizes resale value -- a full restoration, or bringing it back up to full operating condition, recognizing that, no matter what it is -- a guitar, a motorcycle, a car, or a bicycle -- they're only original once. As soon as I change something that has to do with the bike's structural or cosmetic appearance, it is no longer original. Although I hope taking WD-40 and 0000 steel wool to it won't count against the cosmetic component. If it were antique furniture, that would be a different matter. And I question whether or not the pits and blemishes in the chrome are even something that a patina-obsessed collector would even want.

I appreciate any perspective you'd care to share.


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## hzqw2l (Jun 3, 2022)

Nice find.
If you're intent is to sell it, I would suggest an "as is" sale.  Probably worth more in this state to any potential buyer on this forum.


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## fattyre (Jun 3, 2022)

Sell as is.  

You’ll quickly go down a rabbit hole in costs and the time it will take to clean all that chrome and aluminum will be substantial. Unless your comfortable doing it for the love of finishing a project with little financial reward.  

Those bikes complete in a 7+ condition sit on eBay for about $1000 all day long.


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## cooltouch (Jun 3, 2022)

Okay, this is good to know. So, I guess those super high asking prices I see for Paramounts on eBay are wishful thinking?

I gotta say, though, that this must have been one cool looking bike when new. Campagnolo everything, everywhere. The aluminum handle bars and pedal "risers"? are all a kinda cool brushed aluminum. All the brake fittings and I guess that weird looking derailleur too, but I haven't examined it too closely yet.

I finally found the serial number: B7248. Seems kinda low, but what do I know?


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## Freqman1 (Jun 3, 2022)

There are two selling formats here on The CABE. The first is a listing in the "For Sale" section (Complete Bikes) where you list the price, pics, and location. The second is the "Deal or No Deal" section which is an auction style format. Regardless of which section good pics and an accurate description to include components and frame size go a long way towards securing a sale. Also be sure to quote shipping price unless it is a local sale only in which case you have drastically reduced your pool of potential buyers. GLWTS V/r Shawn


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## cooltouch (Jun 3, 2022)

Thanks, Shawn, good to know. What do you guys prefer to use to package up your large frame bikes? An old pallet, maybe?  Seems like cardboard could get stove in too easily.

Welp, I've discovered the first sign of cancer. I'm sure there will be others. It started out as little more than a crack, but I just had to get a fingernail in there and dig around. Man-o-man is that wall thin! But I wonder if the thinness is due to corrosion or if it's just naturally almost paper thin.  So, at this point, I'm wondering if there's a fix that won't cost me my entire SS Retirement check.


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## fattyre (Jun 3, 2022)

Where is that tube on the bike?

One or my first thoughts was that that bike was stored in a damp & dark environment.   If it indeed rusted through from the inside it’s junk.  

 A friend of mine had a seat tube replaced on one of his Paramounts  by Waterford and it was nearly $1500 including the repaint.   The cost of re chroming must be astronomical.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 3, 2022)

Yep I'd be stripping whatever parts and either trash the frame or hang it on the wall. V/r Shawn


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## cooltouch (Jun 3, 2022)

The tube with the cancer is the top tube. I have no idea of the history of the storage of this bike, but I can guess. It was in my neighbor's garage, but he inherited it from his father, so who knows where his dad kept it or for how long it had been in a corrosive environment. I suspect it had been in my neighbor's garage for about 10 years, however.  I live in Houston, Texas, where it isn't unusual for the temp and the humidity to both reach the high nineties concurrently during the summer. One thing I learned the hard way was that, if any of my plain steel tools were stored in my garage without a coating of oil on them, they'd be covered in rust in a month.

Because of this damage I've found, I think I'll be a bit more aggressive at rust removal with the WD-40 and 0000 steel wool to see if I can uncover any more rust through areas.


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## cooltouch (Jun 3, 2022)

Well, I've got good news and, well "it could be better" news. I attacked the rust pits on this bike's frame and I tell you what -- WD-40 and steel wool is a wonderful thing. I have successfully removed all traces of rust from my motorcyles' exhausts on more than one occasion using this combination, and often the rust was heavy enough where I didn't think I could bring it back. But I always have. I held out less hope for this frame, though.

But I was pleasantly surprised, this WD-40 and steel wool got rid of all of the pitted areas of almost all the frame. The exception was the top tube where some small flakes in the chrome have happened, and the forks, which were very heavily rusted. The WD-40 and steel wool got rid of all the rust on the forks, it's just that they don't look as bright as the rest of the bike.

About that top tube, as near as I can tell, those spots where the chrome has flaked off are not indicative of any deeper corrosion. I pushed down on those areas _hard _and I could get no deflection. And around the hole, I chipped back just about all the diseased metal and what remains around the periphery looks like good tube metal. I didn't have any magnification or lighting or measurement tools, but just using my old Mark 1 eyeball, I'd guess at the tubing thickness right there to be about 1/32".

I'm gonna check around, see what it might cost to get that spot repaired, and then perhaps to get the frame rechromed. I'm thinking I might can find someone local who can TIG weld a patch in there. As for a rechrome, who knows. I'm bearing in mind the rabbit hole you guys have mentioned.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 3, 2022)

cooltouch said:


> Well, I've got good news and, well "it could be better" news. I attacked the rust pits on this bike's frame and I tell you what -- WD-40 and steel wool is a wonderful thing. I have successfully removed all traces of rust from my motorcyles' exhausts on more than one occasion using this combination, and often the rust was heavy enough where I didn't think I could bring it back. But I always have. I held out less hope for this frame, though.
> 
> But I was pleasantly surprised, this WD-40 and steel wool got rid of all of the pitted areas of almost all the frame. The exception was the top tube where some small flakes in the chrome have happened, and the forks, which were very heavily rusted. The WD-40 and steel wool got rid of all the rust on the forks, it's just that they don't look as bright as the rest of the bike.
> 
> ...



I think chrome alone will put you over the money on that bike. Just my2c. V/r Shawn


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## cooltouch (Jun 3, 2022)

Yeah, that's kinda what I was figuring.


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## rstytnsp (Jun 3, 2022)

The wall thickness is 0.7mm out in the middle of the tube. You could have the top tube replaced and paint the frame afterwards,
the chrome will probably not be worth redoing.


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## Vicious Cycle (Jun 6, 2022)

If the tube is rusted that badly the others cannot be far behind. I would salvage what parts you can and hang the frame on the wall. The triple crank, Headset and hubs have value. 1972


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## cooltouch (Jun 6, 2022)

It's only the top tube that appears to have any internal corrosion damage, and even that appears to be minimal. All other components of the frame show no signs of corrosion intrusion and they cleaned up great. 

I'm going to try something with the top tube, see how well it works., First, I am going to thoroughly dowse the interior of the tube with a rust converter that uses phosphoric acid. This converts the iron oxide to a ferrous phosphide compound, which is very rigid and totally inert. I've used this stuff on steel before and it works very well. Then I'll have a patch either brazed or TIG-welded into the opening. If/when I sell the bike, I will make a full disclosure about the top tube's state.

I have a question on another topic. This bike has a generator attached to one of the rear downtubes. The fixture that holds the generator also holds a rear light. There's a wire running forward to what I assume was once a front light but it's gone now. The whole assembly looks like an aftermarket add-on. Is this the case, or would this have been an available option? I plan to remove it entirely and just leave it off. I've never liked these generators. My first multi-speed bike was an old Schwinn 3-speed -- at least I think it was a Schwinn. This was back in the 60s, so it's been a while. Anyway, this old bike had a generator, and when I flicked it on, it really made the bike harder to pedal, so I just never cared for it. If/when I sell the bike, I'll include it in the sale in case the future owner would like to make use of it.


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## WillWork4Parts (Jun 6, 2022)

cooltouch said:


> It's only the top tube that appears to have any internal corrosion damage, and even that appears to be minimal. All other components of the frame show no signs of corrosion intrusion and they cleaned up great.
> 
> I'm going to try something with the top tube, see how well it works., First, I am going to thoroughly dowse the interior of the tube with a rust converter that uses phosphoric acid. This converts the iron oxide to a ferrous phosphide compound, which is very rigid and totally inert. I've used this stuff on steel before and it works very well. Then I'll have a patch either brazed or TIG-welded into the opening. If/when I sell the bike, I will make a full disclosure about the top tube's state.
> 
> I have a question on another topic. This bike has a generator attached to one of the rear downtubes. The fixture that holds the generator also holds a rear light. There's a wire running forward to what I assume was once a front light but it's gone now. The whole assembly looks like an aftermarket add-on. Is this the case, or would this have been an available option? I plan to remove it entirely and just leave it off. I've never liked these generators. My first multi-speed bike was an old Schwinn 3-speed -- at least I think it was a Schwinn. This was back in the 60s, so it's been a while. Anyway, this old bike had a generator, and when I flicked it on, it really made the bike harder to pedal, so I just never cared for it. If/when I sell the bike, I'll include it in the sale in case the future owner would like to make use of it.




Dude, that gaping hole is not Minimal corrosion damage. Corrosion conversion compounds may work for body panel repairs but this is structural tubing. ...Already thin wall structural tubing at that... If you're going to repair and trust it for your own use, that's one thing, but if I found out a patch repair had been done to a bike like that, I would no longer be interested. Might even be hard to find someone that would still want it at a significant discount rate. 
Don't get me wrong, I love seeing things resurrected. Just trying to save you some headache man. I'd call that frame a lost cause.


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## fattyre (Jun 6, 2022)

Yeah the whole repair idea is a huge red flag.  Try as you might, but internally rusted tubes aren’t just a localized problem.  You asked for some knowledge and I’d advise that you listen to it.  Some of these folks on here really know what they are talking about and I’d hate to see someone attempt to ride that bike and get injured when the frame folds in half.  

Its really not that uncommon of a bike so try again if your really into the fixing up a Paramount thing.  
As others have mentioned, strip the parts to sell to make up for your loss.  
Although part of me would love to see the attempt to tig weld in a section of top tube and make it look legit. 🙄


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## cooltouch (Jun 16, 2022)

After putting considerable thought into this problem, I've decided I'm going to check into having the top tube replaced. I'm curious at this point, what the tubing on the Paramount is made of. Chrome moly, perhaps?


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## Trainman999 (Jun 16, 2022)

It's made out of dubble butted Reynolds 531. Waterforfd website quotes $250 to replace top tube. Andy Gilmour quotes $150. Check with a local frame builder.  If you havent done so already you should look inside the tubes. Get a bore light and an inspection mirror, remove the fork and the seatpost bolt. in a dark rooom put the bore light in the vent hole in the top tube and look through thr seat post slot. for the down tube put the light in the vent hole and use the mirrow to look in the tube from the bb. For the chain stays light and mirror in bb its a little more dificult.  It would be smart to plug the vent holes with Permetex silicon gaasket maker and fill the tubes with evapro rust over night to get rid of any rust on the inside of the tubes


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## cooltouch (Jun 21, 2022)

Just now getting back to this, my latest project. Trainman, thanks for the advice. I have a gimpy bore light that usually doesn't work, so I'll probably just get a new one before I try out your advice. I have a small bright flashlight that I might see if it will work.

I did the next best thing, though. I have this big old Craftsman two-headed mallet -- one head's nylon and the other head's rubber. The dang thing's so old, the rubber head is just about as hard as the nylon head. Anyway, I decided there's one way to tell for sure just how bad that top tube is. So I smacked it all over with that mallet's rubber head. Immediately, the condition of that top tube became apparent -- which is to say, hmm . . . terminal.  After smacking that tube all over, it stove in most of it. So next I took the mallet to the down tube -- it rang like a bell. I'm taking that as a good sign. The seat tube and the rear tubes also sang a bit in their own way, as did the forks. So, I'm seeing all this as good signs, although I will still try and do the bore scope inspection as well.

Next, I'll check around with local bike shops and see if there's somebody local that they use for the sort of repair I need. Then, failing that, I guess I'll look up Andy Gilmour. I have an automotive paint sprayer outfit, so I can paint the frame, if need be.


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## SLM (Jul 6, 2022)

Send it to Waterford and let them decide it's fate.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 6, 2022)

SLM said:


> Send it to Waterford and let them decide it's fate.



As long as money is no object. If this is a keeper then maybe. If you are looking to move this it will be a money losing proposition. My 2c


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