# Spoke nipple washers



## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 27, 2021)

I recently purchased a set of S-2 hoops that were advertised as Whizzer hoops.  I thought that the set of HD spokes would work but it seems the spoke nipple holes are even larger then the HD spokes. Has anyone ever used a spoke washers with their wheels? Is this a common fix or is it something I should stay away from?


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## fattyre (Dec 27, 2021)

You can and I’ve tried it but that’s a hot mess I wouldn’t recommend it. 

All your going to do is deform the washers.  It actually makes truing the wheel a nightmare as the nipple and the washer will constantly re align every time you turn the nipple therefore causing you chase your tail if you will.  It can be done but it can potentially get very frustrating.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 27, 2021)

fattyre said:


> You can and I’ve tried it but that’s a hot mess I wouldn’t recommend.
> 
> All your going to do is deform the washers.  It actually makes truing the wheel a nightmare as the nipple and the washer will constantly re align every time you turn the nipple therefore causing you chase your tail if you will.  It can be done but it can potentially get very frustrating.



 I was hoping the width of the S-2 would allow the washers to sit flat. The nipples I have do not pull through but close I figured they would eventually. I made a mistake thinking they were HD rims but Whizzer wheels must have an even larger spoke then standard HD. Live and learn, some of my best lessons learned are from mistakes.


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## Rivnut (Dec 27, 2021)

Look at it this way. You’re a good teacher in that now others wont have to learn from experience.


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## WillWork4Parts (Dec 27, 2021)

Yeah, HD rims like the tandems are .105ga, the Whizzer rims are .120ga. At one point there were oversized nipples to adapt down one size. I've seen a few of the larger ones and had a couple sets of .105 to .080 spoke/nipple combos on some BMX rims in the 90s, but never saw them again. It seems like so many of those indispensable little parts are just disappearing...
I've gotten away with thick stainless washers before and I see thick brass ones on eBay now, they may flex and "walk" less, but man...they never turn out looking right to me. A bushing or grommet(check out SunRingle rims) would be ideal....they're not readily available though...even if you could find them in the right size, I'm sure they'd become costly pretty quickly too. 
The rims you've got don't happen to be 24" do they? I'm looking for a matched set for my whizzer.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 28, 2021)

WillWork4Parts said:


> Yeah, HD rims like the tandems are .105ga, the Whizzer rims are .120ga. At one point there were oversized nipples to adapt down one size. I've seen a few of the larger ones and had a couple sets of .105 to .080 spoke/nipple combos on some BMX rims in the 90s, but never saw them again. It seems like so many of those indispensable little parts are just disappearing...
> I've gotten away with thick stainless washers before and I see thick brass ones on eBay now, they may flex and "walk" less, but man...they never turn out looking right to me. A bushing or grommet(check out SunRingle rims) would be ideal....they're not readily available though...even if you could find them in the right size, I'm sure they'd become costly pretty quickly too.
> The rims you've got don't happen to be 24" do they? I'm looking for a matched set for my whizzer.



Thanks for the input I need a set of HD rims. Aren't spoke gauge like electrical wire lower gauge thicker spoke .105 being thicker then .120? Is .105 = ten gauge and .120 = twelve gauge? 26 inch hoops  sorry, are most Whizzers 24?


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## SirMike1983 (Dec 28, 2021)

As spoke diameter goes up the wire gauge number decreases. 

A standard spoke is "14 gauge", placing it at very close to 2mm. A 15 gauge would be close to 1.8mm (thinner), and a 13 gauge (2.3mm) would be wider. The "12 gauge" is 2.5-2.6mm. A .120 inch spoke (around 3mm) would be between 8 gauge and 9 gauge. If by "HD" you mean a "12 gauge spoke", then .120 is something even bigger than 12 gauge/HD. 

The spoke nipple washer is not intended to substitute for the rim eyelet. It is meant as a backer to spread and balance the load placed on the rim at the eyelet across good metal. They are more important when you have a single-wall rim prone to deformation around the eyelet (e.g., a British rod brake Westwood rim). They are still helpful but less necessary on a thicker steel rim that is stronger at the eyelet (e.g., a Schwinn S6 rim). But in both cases they are backers rather than a substitute for the rim eyelet.


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## ABC Services (Dec 28, 2021)

Do you have a caliper to measure the nipple holes in the rim? Maybe you have the wrong spokes and nipples.  I have a set I checked and apparently has double butted 12 gage spokes with a 11 gage nipple. The hole size on the rims I have are .242.


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## WillWork4Parts (Dec 28, 2021)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Thanks for the input I need a set of HD rims. Aren't spoke gauge like electrical wire lower gauge thicker spoke .105 being thicker then .120? Is .105 = ten gauge and .120 = twelve gauge? 26 inch hoops  sorry, are most Whizzers 24?



Sorry, my use of the term "ga" is incorrect in describing spoke sizes, but I'm so used to calling them "heavy gauge" that the terms get mashed together. These are actually decimal inch measurements of the 3 most commonly used spoke diameters. Nipple sizes are another conversation entirely.....Phew! Lol










Unfortunately, I don't have any .120s in the box...but this is how they're labeled. 




Lucky for you guys....I'm on the search for a spoke today and I get to provide pictures! 








Not all Whizzers are 26" or 24"...there's even a 20" called the Sportsman. My 24" is a Pacemaker and has mismatched rims :-/  . Whizzers aren't really locked in on one diameter of spoke either, the same way heavy duty only specifies larger than .080" spokes. The bikes I know to have factory .120" spokes are Whizzer, Cycle Truck, and Wasp....and anything Worksman branded I guess. I've seen the .105" spokes on mostly tandems and mid 60s-on heavy duty schwinns. 

What parts are you working with to build onto what bike would be a better question to help out I guess...?


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 29, 2021)

@WillWork4Parts I have a HD Bendix hub marked Tandem and what appears to be a set  .105 spokes with a set of S-2 rims drilled for .120 spokes. I guessing the hub will accept ,120 spokes. In that case I would need just the spokes. What sort of Hubs are often on Whizzers?


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 29, 2021)

I understand the measuring of the spokes but what sizes correlate to the gauges ,8/10/12?


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## WetDogGraphix (Dec 29, 2021)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I understand the measuring of the spokes but what sizes correlate to the gauges ,8/10/12?


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## WillWork4Parts (Dec 29, 2021)

New Departure model D would be my go to for a regular coaster on a whizzer. I've been told the Bendix flying B was an option for the whizzer, but I've only had lackluster performance out of them. I know Morrow made a .105" drilled hub too, but really a lot of the wheels I've come across by themselves were drilled up DIY style. Then there are the coveted drum hubs...
For Non-drum in the front, I think your options are pretty limited for .120". Bendix model K hub and the more rare Eclipse Machine Division(early Morrow that turned into Bendix I believe). These were used on the Cycle Truck and Wasp, offered in the catalogs as "Knockout front hubs" with a quill axle. The High Flange HD hub was also offered as a Cycle Truck option(think phone dial style flange of a drum hub without the drum). Those are probably the hardest to find. 

I think Union and Chair brand front hubs, maybe one oddball low flange Bendix were used in the middleweight and lightweight Tandems but they were .105" spokes from what I remember. 

One other oddball HD hub was Monark stamped. It seems like all the brake parts were oversized, including the shell bore. Thinking it was made by ND special for them, but I've never seen documentation.  I was just told they were for Monarks with engines....even though I've seen more of them in .080" size than .120". I need to start a thread for this hub. 



As far as nipples go, you're at the mercy of the stock that you can find. The newer produced nipples are typically shorter and thinner, where the old stock Torrington and Union nipples will really fill out the holes in your S-2s. The gauges as marked for use on a spoke wrench vary quite a bit as far as what gets used on which manufacturer's nipple from which time period....I've never nailed it down to a science. 15ga will be the smallest diameter and 10ga the largest you'll find on a bike. 9ga and larger start into motorcycle and car nipples I believe. 
Mostly I've had to reuse what nipples come on the wheel and finding a matching HD nipple to replace a damaged one can be a pain. I'm sure there's folks out there who deal in only whizzers and have came across a better supply of these parts too though. I'll try to measure hub holes and get some example pics afterwhile... Will see what kind of .105" drilled hoops I have too.


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## WillWork4Parts (Dec 29, 2021)

First up, .120" dia spoke setup measurements:



















Sorry...I added a bunch of photos at first, now it's proving to be a headache to edit and delete them so I can keep the sizes in separate posts...to try and be less confusing.


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## WillWork4Parts (Dec 29, 2021)

Second, .105" dia spoke setup measurements:


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## WillWork4Parts (Dec 29, 2021)

And a third for the rest of the comparison minutia:



Above nipples are all for .105" dia spokes. Modern left-most, and one of the adapter nipples I was talking about that fits the larger holes, I only found ONE in the pile! Lol




Above are .120" dia spoke nipples except for the one on the right that has the .105" ID and .22" OD. 
Below, 3 different Flying B hubs. Left is rechromed with no stamp left, top is NOS(note the "36-13" designation), right was either a no stamp or the hub shiner wore all of the letters off. Lol



Unfortunately the photo below is reverse order from above. 




Below is a model K with what looks like a Q2 date stamp. Never noticed that before. I wonder, was this the same as Morrow, 2nd quarter of 47???







Above, another Model K with different placement of stamping, but still an 11ga hub.


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## WillWork4Parts (Dec 29, 2021)

Had to check the Wasp to see if it had any different markings....and sure enough, 10ga! Strange...


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 29, 2021)

WillWork4Parts said:


> Above nipples are all for .105" dia spokes. Modern left-most, and one of the adapter nipples I was talking about that fits the larger holes, I only found ONE in the pile! Lol



Looks like 72 of those adapter nipples would get the job done. I have 2 sets of .105 gauge spokes and nipples and a set of hoops set up for .120 spokes. My hubs are drilled for the .105 spokes.


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## WillWork4Parts (Dec 29, 2021)

I'll keep looking for some but this is all I have in terms of HD spokes so far.... 

And I'm probably a third of the way through my pile. Still haven't found the spokes I'm looking for either.... Time spent organizing will make it easier for the next search though!


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## ABC Services (Dec 29, 2021)

The " adaptor nipples " are different size I.D. as well for 12 gauge, 11 gauge and 10 gauge threads. I only have the two examples right now.


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