# SAVING CRUSTY ORIGNIAL SURFACES what to do when you find a bike.



## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

Regarding potentially rare or unknown bicycles.

My contention is if you find a bike, you should curb your zeal to make it presentable and LEAVE IT ALONE until you do the amount of research to determine if it is important/valuable (this is a great place - post pictures here and you will get a fair idea whithin 48hrs. (Unheard of in pre interenet days.) Unless you plan to ruin a bike for your own purposes, you should retain whatever is on there when you find it. Only after you have done copious research should you attempt to mess with it, especially if you are new to this. I have seen many many bikes that I would not purchase and were generally devalued to serious collectors by well intentioned "spiffing up"  The original surface took many years to get there and cannot be replaced once messed with. This is what is rare and does not make it though time nearly as well as the steel etc. Clues to identification and proper restoration can be found on even the rustiest of items.



From a BARN FIND POST



			
				cyclebxxx202389 said:
			
		

> so your not clever enough to take pictures then? yes, you may want to ride it the way it is, if thats the case. God help us all if a pinstripe was 1/8 inch out of place. As if it was perfect new.
> This is a bicycle, not a religous artifact. it was hand painted originally, and who knows how many times since.
> For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, but some defy logic.
> Perhaps you should hire an archeologist to scientifically document your next Huffy.




Pin stripes an paint layouts are more precise than you might think- I still see terrible, glaring pins, on Non rare Schwinn b-6 and phantoms esp. chain guard-what can be the excuse? Those that never looked at the original think the pin is perfect on the edge of the embossments but it is not - it is away from the embossments and you can clearly see this is hand painted- sooo - an original gives the best FEEL for how the paint should be- even if not every bike was exactly the same- the people who were striping were experts and very much were humanly consistent from bike to bike in my experience of studying many originals over the years.

If you are paying 1500+ for restoration (another thread) or even doing it yourself,  WHY NOT make it as close as possible, instead of talking a flyer- does not cost much more money or time to do it right, thus perserving as best is possible for the future.
PS I feel I am an archeologist/preservationist/care taker of any bike and I know restorers that feel the same way.


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## MrColumbia (Jan 23, 2013)

In the 30's - 60's all the pinstriping at Columbia was done by hand. The only guide was the tip of the little finger of the lady doing the striping. The location would vary a small amount from one pin striper to another. 
 That being said, your advise is sound. Do your research first and document everything if you plan on changing anything. 
 My opinion (seemingly not held by many) is rust did not come from the factory and does not need to be kept on the bike. It does not make the bike look better or make it more valuable now or to future history.


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## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

*I agree rust did not come with the bike*



MrColumbia said:


> In the 30's - 60's all the pinstriping at Columbia was done by hand. The only guide was the tip of the little finger of the lady doing the striping. The location would vary a small amount from one pin striper to another.
> That being said, your advise is sound. Do your research first and document everything if you plan on changing anything.
> My opinion (seemingly not held by many) is rust did not come from the factory and does not need to be kept on the bike. It does not make the bike look better or make it more valuable now or to future history.




Neither did "housepiant" BUT in taking it off many even seasoned folks lose paint.... see the blue to brown robin clean up post.

You have posted the video of ladies painting stripes on a fender with a tool to roll the fender and keep the line pretty much straight- I have seen hand painted watch dials that are hand painted and surpisingly uniform- CRAFTMANSHIP was very important once and is a rapidly vanishing skill/philosphy- most items desinged to be built by people who hate their job.

Schwinns DID use cast templates for parts of their paint design... others as well-


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## fat tire trader (Jan 23, 2013)

A bicycle can only have original paint once. There are plenty of bikes that have already been repainted, those ones don't have original paint to lose. Keep originals, original.


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## Gary Mc (Jan 23, 2013)

*WISE ADVICE & Thank You....*

since the "BARN FIND POST" comment you posted from cycleb...... was directed at me.  If you are going to sell a bike, sell it as is and let the new owner address issues and do their own documentation. The "blast & primer" option to resell just destroys any chances to actually get it right on a restoration.  In my opinion it destroys the potential sales value too as a lot of us will not buy a primered bike because we WANT to insure the details are right.  And I'm not saying keep all bikes original with rust & all but am saying give someone who is going to choose to restore the opportunity to do their own documentation if you are selling it.


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## cyclebuster (Jan 23, 2013)

so a bike that is covered 100 percent in deep rust should be left alone, because its so rare. I have scrubbed the rust off off many bikes and yes there will be a tiny amount of paint left, but it looks like hell, and its hardly worth the 8 hours. replacing original pinstripes done by hand 100 years ago, will never be done perfect. I sell bikes for a living. no feature, no condition, no style of bicycle will kill a sale like rust. If you wish to ride a butt ugly bike well this is the USA, be my guest. 
I would take some pictures of the original paint lines and blast the rust off any antique bike in that condition. 
reality is we are talking about a peice of pipe, sprayed with lacquer, and then drawn lines on freehand here. Not a Da Vinci


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## Lawrence Ruskin (Jan 23, 2013)

I think it depends on the bike and who has done what to it. When I got My CCM light delivery bike it was rusty, dented and the handlebars were bent. I blasted it to stop the advancing rust. I painted it for the same reason.

If you leave the rust, the pits will just keep getting deeper.

When I can afford it, I will change it back to total stock except for the brakes I put on for safety.

There might be 20 or there might be 100 of these bikes in existence and not only is it my joy to ride it's my responsibility to make sure this piece of Canadian history doesn't rust into scale.

Wax just doesn't cut it, primer and paint stops the rust.


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## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

*Wow*



cyclebuster said:


> so a bike that is covered 100 percent in deep rust should be left alone, because its so rare. I have scrubbed the rust off off many bikes and yes there will be a tiny amount of paint left, but it looks like hell, and its hardly worth the 8 hours. replacing original pinstripes done by hand 100 years ago, will never be done perfect. I sell bikes for a living. no feature, no condition, no style of bicycle will kill a sale like rust. If you wish to ride a butt ugly bike well this is the USA, be my guest.
> I would take some pictures of the original paint lines and blast the rust off any antique bike in that condition.
> reality is we are talking about a peice of pipe, sprayed with lacquer, and then drawn lines on freehand here. Not a Da Vinci




If you sold your bikes as RESTORED (rather than refurbished) and did not disclosed you used most likely had used the wrong paint and did not actually know the accurate grapics or care,  I would have to consider you a swindler.

Granted old paint chemistry is not readilly available today and  not to say some people do not go through the trouble to find old usable paint or something other than "laquer" (no longer nitro as could have been used on early stuff- This paint is very much like old enamel and the closest I know of to what was commonly used http://www.1shot.com/questions.html 


(Although I have NEVER heard of a bicycle with original LAQUER paint from the factory -regardless of year or whatever-I am mostly familiar with USA pre WWII bikes- yes there were later laquer spray can touch ups offerd)  
Vis:
Post war:




Pre I believe:











It is this kind of laxness or disregard that causes many people to shy from the hobby, they pay for what is represneted as a RESTORED bike only to find out that it is RESTORTIONED like ABORTIONED, and their investment is compromised- I suppose Caveat Emptor...


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## cyclebuster (Jan 23, 2013)

I have painted and sold very few vintage bikes and they were all listed as such. 
Your own post states the original paint is not available world wide, so EVERYONE that restores a bike is a liar, and a cheating theif, including yourself. 
If the exact original paint is not available, what would it matter? 
It sounds a bit self righteous to me. 
As if your the only one qualified to fix a stupid bike.


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## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

cyclebuster said:


> I have painted and sold very few vintage bikes and they were all listed as such.
> Your own post states the original paint is not available world wide, so EVERYONE that restores a bike is a liar, and a cheating theif, including yourself.
> If the exact original paint is not available, what would it matter?
> It sounds a bit self righteous to me.
> As if your the only one qualified to fix a stupid bike.




Or stupid car or painting or whatever- no one could ever exacly replicate what came from the factory- that doesn't mean that one should not try to be as close as possible, and disclose that they were not really concerned with accuracy as it is only a stupid bicycle.


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## cyclebuster (Jan 23, 2013)

its pretty obvious your just following me and my posts trying to promote some sort of superior skills and or intellect. This whole post was written to discredit my opinion. 
I could care less for your opinion. And i am sure i am not alone. 
I doubt that if you were selling a bike you would claim it was restored by an idiot. 
But the truth is another matter. 
Go find someone else to belittle and puff your tiny chest at.

I buy and sell between 2-500 bicycles a year every year. I painted one last year. I will be stripping at least 4 this year, a 53 newsboy, 47 WZ, 46 Henderson, and a Shelby Airflow. None of them has any paint worth salvaging, or I would. 
And you sir are headed for the ignore feature, a lofty post never before installed on any web poster.


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## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

*I am honored*



cyclebuster said:


> its pretty obvious your just following me and my posts trying to promote some sort of superior skills and or intellect. This whole post was written to discredit my opinion. [Who has the ego here?] ...
> 
> And you sir are headed for the ignore feature, a lofty post never before installed on any web poster.




I hold few lofty posts Thank you!

It seems all things have a "pyramid" of people- the bottom is filled with people who do not know or do not care and less and less people the more their standards rise.


This post is MY opinion and certainly you are entitled to yours. Discussion helps to decide where you rest. I have seen way too many people who feel the need to wipe their di** (g rated post)  over something rather than leave it alone. Granted often an item does not bear preserving but why not check before you do something that cannot be undone.


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## fat tire trader (Jan 23, 2013)

I think that the problem with this thread is we don't have an example of a crusty original bike to debate.

 So I am offering an example of one of mine for this purpose. 

It can be seen here http://www.fattiretrading.com/1890sl.html

Now lets debate whether or not this bike should be repainted and plated or not. I would like to know what you all think. I already have my opinion, which probably will not change.

I too believe that most new paint looks very different than the original paint. It is interesting the One Shot may be close to original, depending upon the bike. I have only used one shot for striping. Has anyone repainted an entire bike with it? Does anyone have recommendations of other paint that would be close to original? I would think that single stage tractor paint might be a good choice.






I was hired once to restore a Schwinn Meteor that to me was in excellent original condition, it had some scratches. The owner insisted that she wanted it to be like new. I had a local painter repaint it, and it was stolen from his shop.

Its a rainy day on the Bay,
Chris


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## shawn57187 (Jan 23, 2013)

Obviously you guys are approaching bicycle collecting from two completely different angles.  Cycleb is trying to make money from it, and you're a collector interested in preserving history. Given the low value that most bicycles bring relative to restoration costs, I highly doubt that anyone would be able to buy and sell old bikes profitably while doing 100% faithful restorations. That's just a fact of life.  Most of those bikes will be compromised in some way to get a return on investment. 

I'm personally more of a preservationist. I like rusty old bikes, the visible age tells the story of the item.  When I get a bike, I clean it up and remove all the old grease and such, give everything a good polish, and put it back together. Then I research and correct / complete the bike. Because I don't like compromise,  I've spent a lot of money on these bikes and its always been an emotionally satisfying investment.  That's also why I never buy restored items; I can always see problems with the restoration. 

But not everyone is like me or you.  Some people see business where we see a hobby. Others aren't concerned about the details.  Have a look at RatRodBikes, there are tons of people chopping up, parting out, and otherwise messing with old classics.   That's just the reality of it. 



bike said:


> Thank you!
> 
> It seems all things have a "pyramid" of people- the bottom is filled with people who do not know or do not care and less and less people the more their standards rise.
> 
> ...


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## cyclonecoaster.com (Jan 23, 2013)

*Rust shows age & origionality*

*Surface rust or patina shows the "story" of the bicycle -- I am not a fan of restored bicycles myself - I have had them - I just would rather have an original bicycle - A complete rust bucket bicycle is another thing or even a bad house painted bicycle - I try to do what I can to see if there is any hope for the bicycle & now a days I just don't bother with the bicycles that are too far gone - 

I like to purchase what I can ride -- some of the rusty bicycles are my best riders like my red Phantom - I bought it on ebay a few years ago since it was a first year metallic & it looked to have strong paint & rust on the chrome - I got it in & decided to go through all the bearings - new tubes & ride vintage -- the chrome would probably clean up but more people comment on it this way - so it's a keeper & a favorite rider - Went to New Belgium's "Tour de Fat" with it a few years back & everyone walked right past the restored red Phantom & ask what I was going to do with mine & that I should restore it --- my response was the one right next to it was restored & you didn't even look at it -- they then noticed the restored bicycle -- 

I will keep mine original -- thank you -- everyone to their own -- below are my red Phantom - a green & ivory B6 - a prewar motorbike & a prewar Schwinn Challenger DX & my buddies Cycletruck -- ride vintage -- Frank *


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## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

*Lots of good information*



fat tire trader said:


> I think that the problem with this thread is we don't have an example of a crusty original bike to debate.
> 
> So I am offering an example of one of mine for this purpose.
> 
> ...




left on the bike, whether someone plans to restore or leave alone. May have been cleaned or altered in its life but it is what it is. If it were mine I would probably sell it as is, as it is not interesting to me personally- I would not "spiff it up" in any way but leave that for the next person.  If it did float my boat I would try to add missing parts as close as possible and document the changes for the next owner. For me the bike is too nice to restore but I suppose once someone pays me they can grind it to dust if that is their choice. I have spent years studying Hendee original bikes so that when I do mine (already blasted when I bought it) I can do it as close as I can to original- Chances are I will make mistakes, ever showing that keeping any remnant is useful for historic reasons, if not economically feasable.

I know people who have painted with ONE SHOT and have finished by sanding, varnishing or rubbing wtih rottenstone or similar to aprroximate an original finish. Modern water based paints have a different look and are hard to "adjust"  Maybe people think bikes are overrestored when shiny. Yes some are. BUT I have also seen a pair of B-6s at memory lane that people were swearing were restored... they were dead original- Most folks have not seen enough 8-10 conditon early bikes - what passes for 8 these days was often considered to need restoration in the past -"Restored from good original"  could be seen in Hemmings ads and Auction Catalogs in the 1980s in particular, so not that many good examples are left. Next time you see a NOS painted part in the original wrapper take a close look and you might be suprised by the quality of original finish.


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## bikewhorder (Jan 23, 2013)

*I'm sorry cyclebuster...*

My "worst advice ever" post from the other thread was probably too harsh and I didn't think before I submitted it. We have a difference of opinion, for me that Huffman is perfect in "as found" condition, If it were mine I would put it back together and admire it everyday.  I think paying someone to blast it is like paying to have it desecrated.  I'm pretty sure any collector willing to cough up the coins to own it would prefer to have it as unmolested as possible.  Hopefully by the end of this thread we will have settled this debate, and after that we can resolve the debate about parting out bikes and then lets settle the debates about gun control, gay marriage, abortion, and Israel/Palestine.    




cyclebuster said:


> its pretty obvious your just following me and my posts trying to promote some sort of superior skills and or intellect. This whole post was written to discredit my opinion.
> I could care less for your opinion. And i am sure i am not alone.
> I doubt that if you were selling a bike you would claim it was restored by an idiot.
> But the truth is another matter.
> ...


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## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

*Actually*



shawn57187 said:


> Obviously you guys are approaching bicycle collecting from two completely different angles.  Cycleb is trying to make money from it, and you're a collector interested in preserving history. ...QUOTE]
> 
> I have made a "living" at it for over 20 years- bike hobby that is- mostly buying and selling as I could not afford the stuff on wages. I have lived a very strange life to do this- sacrificing what most people consider important- family house etc. Living in garages barns or where ever so I could get my next fix. I would think if you polled my customers they most often happy with my description of an item- I always try to disclose any information negative or positive so they can make an informed decision and do not try to pass refurbished stuff off as Restored- granted, while the terms are fairly precise, peoples understanding of them varies widely.
> 
> ...


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## shawn57187 (Jan 23, 2013)

bike said:


> I have made a "living" at it for over 20 years- bike hobby that is- mostly buying and selling as I could not afford the stuff on wages. I have lived a very strange life to do this- sacrificing what most people consider important- family house etc. Living in garages barns or where ever so I could get my next fix. I would think if you polled my customers they most often happy with my description of an item- I always try to disclose any information negative or positive so they can make an informed decision and do not try to pass refurbished stuff off as Restored- granted, while the terms are fairly precise, peoples understanding of them varies widely.
> 
> It took me some time to cross to the school of Frank aka cyclonecoaster.com. Appreciating the look of something crusty instead of shiny takes time - I regret getting rid of some I did not think were "Nice enough" early on. I have found a trend in long term enthusiasts going to "as found" bicycles whether they be crusty, housepainted in the day, or excellent examples.
> 
> ...




Living that way kind of makes you an exception, appreciating the bikes in their "natural state" does not. I can definitely sympathize with your philosophy of not restoring bikes. Regardless, my point still stands: People approach the hobby or business from different angles. This is immutable. Some people are less concerned with history or details.  Personally I think with our consumer culture, we already get enough "new" and "shiny" shoved down our throats. There is something cathartic about giving up that quest for perfection and just being comfortable with what life has already created. The only exception would be if the bicycle is in such bad condition that it cannot be ridden without a complete restoration.  Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now :o


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## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

*There is room for everybody*

and I think the post above is well said.... even so I hate to see or hear of a big tank Dayton or any other "desirable" bike being summarily hacked... and who's to say what is desirable in the future- I spray painted my original violet stingray when I was a kid- liked it better cause I did it...


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## cyclebuster (Jan 23, 2013)

No single thing in this world devalues any item like RUST. While we in this hobby or business if you like, see things the way we want, and like, thats the opinion of .000001 percent of the population. 
I like old bikes in original paint. But I also know its UNSALEABlE to anyone but US... and we all want to buy it for $20. Admit it. 
Painted, with shiny chrome, even if its wrong will make that bike desireable to the OTHER 99.9999 percent occupying this planet. 
And of those, i am certain there are some with more money then us. 

ANYWAY. the man asked what to do with his bike. MY opinion makes it saleable to 99.9999 percent of the planet. 
YOUR opinion makes it saleable to YOU ONLY

WHO gave the best advice???


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## catfish (Jan 23, 2013)

I agree. I can't tell you how many times I went to buy an all original bike from some one, and than when I get there they are so proud of the fact that they brought it to a bike shop and had it tuned up..... And new tires put on...... And at the same time destorying and throwing away a good set of orginal white walls...... And than they think the tune up and new tires adds value to the bike!  Ugh.   Leave it alone! If you are going to sell it, don't do anything to it ! Leave that for the person who buys it.



bike said:


> Regarding potentially rare or unknown bicycles.
> 
> My contention is if you find a bike, you should curb your zeal to make it presentable and LEAVE IT ALONE until you do the amount of research to determine if it is important/valuable (this is a great place - post pictures here and you will get a fair idea whithin 48hrs. (Unheard of in pre interenet days.) Unless you plan to ruin a bike for your own purposes, you should retain whatever is on there when you find it. Only after you have done copious research should you attempt to mess with it, especially if you are new to this. I have seen many many bikes that I would not purchase and were generally devalued to serious collectors by well intentioned "spiffing up"  The original surface took many years to get there and cannot be replaced once messed with. This is what is rare and does not make it though time nearly as well as the steel etc. Clues to identification and proper restoration can be found on even the rustiest of items.
> 
> ...


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## dougfisk (Jan 23, 2013)

This deserved repeating 



bike said:


> ...I have found a trend in long term enthusiasts going to "as found" bicycles whether they be crusty, housepainted in the day, or excellent examples....





Or as I like to say,

_Act in haste - repent at leisure._


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## Hermanator3 (Jan 23, 2013)

I agree with Mr Columbia, grease, dirt & rust are not original from the factory.  When I got my Ranger, I thought quite a while about how much to clean it.  Then I remembered the debate over the cleaning of the Sistine Chapel's frescoes, some thought the cleaning was a sacrilege while others though removing 500 years of soot & dirt revealed the paintings as Michelangelo intended. Besides, I keep all my modern bikes clean, waxed & rust free. So I went over the paint with 0000 steel wool & WD40 & the nickel with Evapo-Rust. The problem with the Ranger of course is that if you want to ride it, which I did, you get into the whole tire issue.

I have used 1 Shot paint on the Colson that I working on.  I have only painted the fork & fenders so far.  I am using a very high quality brush & the maroon turned out surprisingly well.  No brush marks & does not have a high shine.  The cream is not as good, not as smooth.  Then again in my experience, yellow paint is a pain.


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## markivpedalpusher (Jan 23, 2013)

cyclebuster said:


> No single thing in this world devalues any item like RUST. While we in this hobby or business if you like, see things the way we want, and like, thats the opinion of .000001 percent of the population.
> I like old bikes in original paint. But I also know its UNSALEABlE to anyone but US... and we all want to buy it for $20. Admit it.
> Painted, with shiny chrome, even if its wrong will make that bike desireable to the OTHER 99.9999 percent occupying this planet.
> And of those, i am certain there are some with more money then us.
> ...




But, *what if?* Your primary consumers (1%) are collectors who desire original un-molested and un-restored items which include some rust? I would say that negates the other (99%) of consumers.


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## shawn57187 (Jan 23, 2013)

Hermanator3 said:


> I agree with Mr Columbia, grease, dirt & rust are not original from the factory.  When I got my Ranger, I thought quite a while about how much to clean it.  Then I remembered the debate over the cleaning of the Sistine Chapel's frescoes, some thought the cleaning was a sacrilege while others though removing 500 years of soot & dirt revealed the paintings as Michelangelo intended. Besides, I keep all my modern bikes clean, waxed & rust free. So I went over the paint with 0000 steel wool & WD40 & the nickel with Evapo-Rust. The problem with the Ranger of course is that if you want to ride it, which I did, you get into the whole tire issue.




Funny that you mentioned the Sistine Chapel's frescoes. When they "cleaned" it, they accidentally removed all Michelangelo's dry brush shadows. They even removed details like fingers and eyes.  Now it is arguably ruined.  Your analogy couldn't have exemplified my point better. Better to leave it absolutely original unless you absolutely know it can be restored correctly.

http://100swallows.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/the-sistine-chapel-cleaning-job/


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## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

*I believe in the 1980s*

Some of the EXPERTS at HD RESTORED one of the first HDS that was in long time possession by HD maybe from the first. So their bravado "corrected" the original... (As an aside, the "experts" at HD will authenticate just about anything- saw a few bikes that I know were built from non HD "stuff" authenticated as original...but that is another story)

Also a guy doing dirt some work at HD thought he would help em out and doze the run down shack in that area- turned out to be the original garage where the first HD motorcycles were made... 





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson:

In January 1905, small advertisements were placed in the "Automobile and Cycle Trade Journal" that offered bare Harley-Davidson engines to the do-it-yourself trade. By April, complete motorcycles were in production on a very limited basis. That year, the first Harley-Davidson dealer, Carl H. Lang of Chicago, sold three bikes from the dozen or so built in the Davidson backyard shed. (Some years later the original shed was taken to the Juneau Avenue factory where it would stand for many decades as a tribute to the Motor Company's humble origins. Unfortunately, the first shed was accidentally destroyed by contractors in the early 1970s during a clean-up of the factory yard.)


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## bikewhorder (Jan 23, 2013)

cyclebuster said:


> No single thing in this world devalues any item like RUST. While we in this hobby or business if you like, see things the way we want, and like, thats the opinion of .000001 percent of the population.
> I like old bikes in original paint. But I also know its UNSALEABlE to anyone but US... and we all want to buy it for $20. Admit it.
> Painted, with shiny chrome, even if its wrong will make that bike desireable to the OTHER 99.9999 percent occupying this planet.
> And of those, i am certain there are some with more money then us.
> ...




My opinion seems to be the consensus on that thread so its not "only me".  Did anyone besides you think blasting it was good a idea?  Look I've admitted that my comment was harsh and I apologized, I'm not looking to start a feud about this.


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## bike (Jan 23, 2013)

*I condsider Dave to be at the top when it comes to restoration in the real world*

http://www.nostalgic.net/restoration-of-a-1918-harley-davidson-bicycle-part-1 (came up in google, hd on the mind)


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## Freqman1 (Jan 23, 2013)

I guess I'm a 1% er. I would rather have something as found and then go from there. I know some of you wanted me to leave that Robin alone. The thing is, as I sit here eating my dinner, its right in front of me. I couldn't stand the blue and yellow so I took my chances. Yea I lost some paint but I think the majority would agree it's a better looking bike now. None of this really matters to me anyway though because looking at the actuary tables I think I have another 35 years before someone else owns it unless I meet with catastrophic financial event. I personally prefer original paint and even a little crusty although I have bright and shiny when I want to change it up. I show my bikes at car shows occasionally and like someone else here brought up the original bikes always draw more interest from the crowd (the other 99%?) than the restored bikes. Now that we settled that on to the easy stuff--everyone should own guns, marriage is between a biological man and biological woman, pro-choice, and who gives a rats ass if the Jews and Arabs annihilate each other! V/r Shawn


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## OldRider (Jan 23, 2013)

I guess I'm sorta strange...I love vintage cars as well as vintage bikes. Nothing is sadder to me then seeing a rust bucket 65 Ford Mustang, turns me right off. A car needs restoration, down to the bare frame blasting, nice correct paint job, restored interior, etc. A bike however is another matter all together," Thou shallt not restore" should be the 11th commandment in the bible. Heres my two rusty beauties, and heaven help the guy that comes within 5 feet of them with a sandblaster or a paint gun


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## cyclebuster (Jan 23, 2013)

sand blasting is pretty abrasive. Soda blasting is much less. it dont matter. some will vacation in an RV while others sleep in tents.


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## 37fleetwood (Jan 23, 2013)

I've talked to both sides of this last bike deal, and let me just tell you guys that the buyers interest was due solely to it's condition.
if you find a bike, rare or otherwise, and your sole purpose is to sell it, be very careful making changes to it. what you might think is nothing may be the only thing your highest bidder is looking at.
this last bike's original barn find condition (this is the only real "Barn Find" I've seen in a while) was it's strongest asset.
some bikes are worth more cleaned up, some are not, find out which is which before you do something stupid.


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## fat tire trader (Jan 23, 2013)

Is the blue bike a CCM?

Here's mine 





OldRider said:


> I guess I'm sorta strange...I love vintage cars as well as vintage bikes. Nothing is sadder to me then seeing a rust bucket 65 Ford Mustang, turns me right off. A car needs restoration, down to the bare frame blasting, nice correct paint job, restored interior, etc. A bike however is another matter all together," Thou shallt not restore" should be the 11th commandment in the bible. Heres my two rusty beauties, and heaven help the guy that comes within 5 feet of them with a sandblaster or a paint gun


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## OldRider (Jan 23, 2013)

fat tire trader said:


> Is the blue bike a CCM?
> 
> Here's mine
> View attachment 81291




Indeed it is! It is a 1936 doublebar Ranger, built by CCM but badged for Hudson Bay stores here in Canada. Yours is getting to be pretty rare bird up here, I find alot of ladies loopframe CCMs from the same vintage as yours, but the singlebar mens frame I haven't seen one come up for sale in about 4 or 5 years. Your model came after my doublebar, I would think its mid 40s. Nice to see a "Yankee" appreciating our bikes........well done


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## slick (Jan 23, 2013)

Wow....talk about opening Pandoras box and letting the plague out. Jeez. This will be a never ending thread and subject forever. 

Here's how i see it, 99% of my bikes I keep. I am now collecting original paint ONLY unless it's a rare bike that the odds of finding it in original paint are very slim, then yes, restored is fine i guess. Most restorations look like crap though in my opinion. Considering the fact i do restoration, i don't want someone else's nightmare of not knowing what's underneath or wondering if they prepped it right so it doesn't peel later. House paint bikes are a very good candidate for stripping that paint, WITHOUT BLASTING, especially if you can see the original decals or pinstripes pepping through under those layers. Slowly remove layer after layer of the paint until you get down to the original paint like Shawn did with the Robin. That was a perfect example of what to do. I didn't think original paint was under there from the pictures. 

As far as buying and selling bikes for profit, i just don't see it. Not with these collector bikes. Some of the 60's-70's stuff, maybe? Like a $50 road bike that you can flip for $150. But to find a rare Elgin Robin (just for example) on the cheap and flip it for profit is extremely tough with all the TV shows and internet. Maybe trading it toward a better bike plus cash would work but the odds of scoring one and flipping it would only be in a barn find situation. And lets face it. Yes they are still out there but not exactly an easy aquire. And time is money, so all the years of hunting may payoff but how many hours did it take to get??


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## Nickinator (Jan 23, 2013)

I would keep most of all the original paint and patina on bikes. the Huffman that was recently pulled out
is basically the line on patina. If its rare And has some faded paint and rust most everywhere but still can see the paint.. leave it.

If I have bike parts with original paint like a frame, fork and 1 fender on any type of bike I would find the parts and paint them to match  the color and patina them up a little. If I was starting from a bike that has all miss matched parts, I would restore it.

I have come to see that it is only original 1 time. If you want to restore a bike try and find one that's restored and redo it
or find A completely rotted one like the Hiawatha that was on ebay awhile ago.

P.s. the bluebird thats on ebay right now would clean up really nice if someone put some time in it.

Nick.


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## old hotrod (Jan 23, 2013)

OK, my turn and I look at it a little differently...I enjoy my bikes and the hobby is a social event that I truly enjoy with my friends. Someday, things could change drastic enough in my life that I would have to sell off my precious bikes. If and when that day comes, I feel that there will be more interest and therefore more buyers interested in my original paint bikes than if I restored them, and in turn raised the price out of range of casual collectors.  Also, on prewar bikes, there are few people in the hobby that can take a bike like the one in question, already at 3,000 and climbing, do a proper restoration and be worth more than invested. Very few...plus that is just my deal, textures and character are more important to me than fake and shiney...
What many of you overlooked is that judging by the bikes on his signature, he probably doesn't have that much experience with deluxe prewar bikes that were two, three and four different colors and hand pinstriped. In the vintage bike world, they are the freaking Mona Lisa. I am assuming here that he mostly deals with post war single color easy to restore fat tired beach cruisers and he is aptly filling the needs of his customers. More power to him but that is not the type of bike we are discussing here...he is comparing apples to oranges and not doing a very good job at it. If we were talking about a very crusty 50s Schwinn Hornet, he had a point, but in this particular case, his advice was not the best regardless of what he thinks...man up and get over it. 
And block me if you feel the need...I am fine with it...


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## cyclebuster (Jan 23, 2013)

well its a big world full of opinions. yep balloon cruisers are easy.


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## scrubbinrims (Jan 23, 2013)

Sandblasting or stripping original paint just for resale just doesn't make any sense because...

-Eliminates a pool of buyers that like original paint in any condition
-Removes the template for more difficult restoration (if that's the choice)
-Removes the vision of what it could look like and for those who want to restore back to original colors.
-Takes the restoration control away from the potential buyer, some might like soda blasting, others walnut shells, but the bottomline is that restoring a bike like the big tank has to proceed carefully and most buyers would want to direct the events.
-Lastly, not cost effective considering labor or service involved in media blasting, chemical stripping, etc...

Now the question on whether or not to restore a bicycle is subjective obviously and in the case of the particular rust bucket in question, I would, especially if I had a rack and a '40 springer fork...and I am pretty damn conservative in this regard.

Chris


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## cyclebuster (Jan 24, 2013)

nobody would sandblast a bike with original paint in any useful condition. we are talking about a bike that has hung out in the weather for 75 years. that bike didnt have paint anywhere. and some of these guys think its mint underneath i guess, I dont know. regardless, 99 percent of the world would toss that hulk in the dumpster from the rust. And besides being ugly, it hung with the crank out so the back tubes are gauranteed to be as rotten inside as out, that thing will likely fold in half if you ride it. IF it was mine it would already be a 2 or 3 tone black, green and cream already, and assembled with the wrong wheels rideable, hanging on my wall, while i hunted the right stuff.


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## MrColumbia (Jan 24, 2013)

Analogies have been made comparing doing any refurbish or restoration to an old bike to the Sistine Chapel restoration. After thinking about it I came to the conclusion it is more like my house that was built in 1938 than the Sistine Chapel. I certainly want to maintain the look of the house that the original architect intended but I need to do maintenance so it is livable and to prevent further deterioration. 
  If I clean the rust and “patina” off of my 1938 Columbia and re-grease all the bearing so I can ride and enjoy it I’m not destroying some international art treasure. Granted, my house is not on the historic register but neither is my 38 Columbia.  Even when old houses that are on historic registers are acquired by some preservation society they are often repaired including new paint, pointing of the masonry and so on to prevent further decay.  Everything is often done to research how the building was originally intended to look and often newer changes to the structure are returned to the original style.
 The bottom line is this should be a fun hobby. There will always be differing opinions on rust vs. shiny or original vs. restoration. That is why I am thankful for this website so all opinions can be heard and then each one of us can come to our own conclusions as to what is best for us and the bike that is in front of us. I think that was what the original post on this thread was about, being informed and doing research.


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## bike (Jan 24, 2013)

*I had a freind who as a tool and die maker in the aerospace industry*

he restored a bike (prewar Schwinn) and did an incredible job. He was determined to do it all himself- All of it was top notch... except: He decided to stripe it and to use stainless straight (no double butted- had no source for double butted then and I do not know if they are made now) spokes and modern short 4 sided nipples (as a practical consideration, was to be ridden at the beach.)    Well I said nothing, he was rightfully proud, but after a couple of years he sold it and replaced it with a only fair original- I asked why- He said he could not stand sitting on the couch, looking at the "Sticks" [in the wheel] and the glaring pins. 

Amazing- I always felt he should have had it striped by a pro, and done the wheels right- everything else was done to a T, including reproducing waterslide decals that were checked for accuracy with a microscopic comparator... talk about anal! Even though he could have changed this with relative ease, his tastes had changed and he went in the direction of originals.= Have not heard from him in 20 years, may not be in bikes at all anymore (never really wanted a lot but did like quality).

So I guess this is to say that some people DO look at these as works of art- hey hand painted pins and sometimes panels-nameless artists but none the less.

A lot of things that are priceless art today (in any genre) were considered cr*p in their day- ok a $4 million dollar Ferrari (today) was always a piece of art- no?
I can fully understand the idea that bicycles are not art but I think most that have looked around more than just a bit find the line between a ~Taiwan mass department store bike and a hand made René herse or other hand made classic lightweight might start to waiver... US "mass produced" Bikes before ~1895 (approx) were very hand intensive in many cases as they were expensive adult transportation before the motorcar- only later becoming cheaper in the bike boom and later even cheaper as kids toys..

Some relevant threads:
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...rs-behind-famous-bicycles&highlight=designers

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?36945-Chrome-Everything-!!!/page2&highlight=designers


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## old hotrod (Jan 24, 2013)

cyclebuster said:


> nobody would sandblast a bike with original paint in any useful condition. we are talking about a bike that has hung out in the weather for 75 years. that bike didnt have paint anywhere. and some of these guys think its mint underneath i guess, I dont know. regardless, 99 percent of the world would toss that hulk in the dumpster from the rust. And besides being ugly, it hung with the crank out so the back tubes are gauranteed to be as rotten inside as out, that thing will likely fold in half if you ride it. IF it was mine it would already be a 2 or 3 tone black, green and cream already, and assembled with the wrong wheels rideable, hanging on my wall, while i hunted the right stuff.




Just not going to give it up are you? Go look at the pictures again...bike is covered in dirt and grime but still has all the paint and  pinstripes...the paint is very crusty and the bike could go either way, worthy of a full and proper restore or simply wipe down with oil and revive to ride, true, but what everyone disagreed with you about was your initial advice to Leadnbrass to immediately blast off the paint and sell it in primer thinking that would be worth more...if you would learn from what others are saying, it just might save you from making a big mistake someday and losing a bunch of money, but that is only if you want to learn something...


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## cyclebuster (Jan 24, 2013)

yet another holier then thou speaks. ok there is a faint oultine of a few colors, jesus h god lets restore them!!! save the rust!


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## bike (Jan 24, 2013)

*cyclebuster*



cyclebuster said:


> yet another holier then thou speaks. ok there is a faint oultine of a few colors, jesus h god lets restore them!!! save the rust!




Is the perfect handle! 

_*FOLKS this is a bit of fun that seemed to fit for me- I do not have malice towards anyone- but find it fun to banter.*_


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## reginald (Jan 24, 2013)

*being judged*



bike said:


> Is the perfect handle!




  This is why I am still a "'lil knee scuffer".   I love this site and the knowledge it imparts free of charge.  However, I rarely post here, for fear of being "judged".  I only paint the "rustbuckets" and can't afford a truly rare bike, anyway.  Many of us buy our bikes on the installment plan, one part at a time, whatever color the part is. If you own it, do as you please to it.  The cost of ownership already discourages the "hacking" of truly important bikes.  
  I enjoy riding a bike that looks/rides well.  My favorites are the ones that I did the most work to, perfect or not.


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## cyclebuster (Jan 24, 2013)

if you want to ride ugly bikes fine, i dont care. if you want to spend $3500 doing an exact restore on a $2500 bike you paid $3000 for, do it! But dont look down your snout to me and act like your the messiah here. Many People love my bikes and what I do to them. I love original paint bikes too, they hang on the wall because nobody wants to buy rust. Period. Oh yeah everyone likes to look at them. Ask them if they want to buy it. 
You tell a person that walks into a bicycle shop anywhere you want $3000 for a bike thats in peices, covered in a thick layer of rust and has no wheels. Try it. Or better yet. Take a rare as heck Fuscia 72 Schwinn Suburban with less then 50 miles on it, garage kept its whole life with barely a speck of rust, and try to get $100 for it. Go for it. 
I have a half dozen fairly rare bikes on ebay right now, and i havent gotten an email on any of them in over 3 months. 
Unlike some, I am forced to live in reality. I know thats a tough one to swallow, when this is just a hobby for some of you, so money is no object. 
So for the last time I will do what I wish with my bikes, and dont tell me "the correct" way according to you.


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## bike (Jan 24, 2013)

*hey*



reginald said:


> This is why I am still a "'lil knee scuffer".   I love this site and the knowledge it imparts free of charge.  However, I rarely post here, for fear of being "judged".  ...QUOTE]
> 
> sometimes it gets heated- but we are all just having fun- please chime in! more action from bike people is always good- you get a bit thicker skin once you have had a go ... a lot of responses pro con or whatever means that people are at least thinking about it! (and you have a lil X up in the corner if you don't like what you see.)
> 
> If you own it- do as you like- I just hope to have people learn from my costly mistakes..


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## cyclebuster (Jan 24, 2013)

i dont bear anyone any ill will, its just a hobby, in case anyone gets too overboard


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## bike (Jan 24, 2013)

cyclebuster said:


> ...[my edit]
> You tell a person that walks into a bicycle shop anywhere you want $3000 for a bike thats in peices, covered in a thick layer of rust and has no wheels. Try it. Or better yet. Take a rare as heck Fuscia 72 Schwinn Suburban with less then 50 miles on it, garage kept its whole life with barely a speck of rust, and try to get $100 for it. Go for it.
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Hermanator3 (Jan 24, 2013)

*Mr . Columbia, I agree with you!*

I am the one using the Sistine Chapel analogy, which may have been a mistake.  I agree with what you posted earlier about dirt & rust & what you wrote in your latest post.


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## Iverider (Jan 24, 2013)

oops. Post removed by me.


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## MrColumbia (Jan 25, 2013)

Now that we all have this problem solved we can turn our attention to world peace.


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## bike (Oct 27, 2014)

*thot*

this deserved a bump for newbies....


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## andybee75 (Oct 27, 2014)

How about this resto?  Good or bad?
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...estored-1937-Crescent&highlight=crescent+1937


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## tripple3 (May 20, 2015)

*0000 steel wool.....*

I enjoyed reading most of this thread... I skipped a little.
This post needs pics. 1st pic cleaned with soap and water




This was cleaned with 0000 steel wool and water, very slow and easy; yet I lost some areas of paint and stripes. I'm still new.



I did it the way I wanted for me. My bike. I am happy with my results yet know it may have been done better by a more experienced enthusiast. 
At least I did research 1st and didn't get into something real valuable....


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## Real Steel (May 23, 2015)

*Not just for bikes!*

The trend to keep all types of vintage machines as original as possible is growing stronger everyday.

Case in point:  I recently sold my 1925 Dodge Brothers Roadster.  This car was a real barn find car in 2001.  I owned it starting in 2005.  This was a car that was as original as it could possibly be, but still functional (tune ups, oil changes, repairs, tires, etc).  It still carried much of its barn dust.  When I sold the car last year, I received a price 30% higher than the going rate for a 'restored' car.  The new owner wanted an original and was willing to pay for it.

I've heard of the same scenario with vintage tooling, machines of all types, motorcycles, etc.

It still kills me that I had to sell that dodge...


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## Wheeled Relics (May 23, 2015)

My 1895 Lindsay Bros. "Fairland" 
Powder Coated in Gold Rust

View attachment 216006
View attachment 216007


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## tanksalot (May 24, 2015)

I've had this happen many times in so many ways to go buy a bike . Being proudly told by the seller he put Fresh knobby tires on a Balloon bike & paid $100 for the tune up thinking he can ask more for the bike..Or polishing chrome with sand paper .Ive seen all of it & it drives me crazy . The worst one was a guy doing me a favor meeting me to buy a bike. His son thought Id like the runner blade sled that he placed on top of the bike for the 1 hour trip to meet me. All good of them good people with good intentions that just go wrong .




catfish said:


> I agree. I can't tell you how many times I went to buy an all original bike from some one, and than when I get there they are so proud of the fact that they brought it to a bike shop and had it tuned up..... And new tires put on...... And at the same time destorying and throwing away a good set of orginal white walls...... And than they think the tune up and new tires adds value to the bike!  Ugh.   Leave it alone! If you are going to sell it, don't do anything to it ! Leave that for the person who buys it.


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## tanksalot (May 24, 2015)

That Dodge is incredible very nice.


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## bikesnbuses (May 24, 2015)

tanksalot said:


> I've had this happen many times in so many ways to go buy a bike . Being proudly told by the seller he put Fresh knobby tires on a Balloon bike & paid $100 for the tune up thinking he can ask more for the bike..Or polishing chrome with sand paper .Ive seen all of it & it drives me crazy . The worst one was a guy doing me a favor meeting me to buy a bike. His son thought Id like the runner blade sled that he placed on top of the bike for the 1 hour trip to meet me. All good of them good people with good intentions that just go wrong .




Thanks for reminding me of the time someone did>>The EXACT same thing!!
They brought some crappy old dime a dozen runner sled place on TOP of a bike they brought to see if I was interested...
I think no one will ever figure people out..we all have an idea of how "non-collectors" think.But if we could figure people out ,I think we'd all be rich!

I was INCREDIBLY lucky with my dads green/gold Colorflow!! 
He got it tuned up but they left ALL the original parts!!!(Allstates,seat,etc) They put some god awful neon green valve stem caps.. But the bike rode GREAT!!

Most "regular" people see flat tires and think that its time for a new bike....Its pretty sad


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## Wheeled Relics (May 24, 2015)

Originally Posted by Hermanator3  
I agree with Mr Columbia, grease, dirt & rust are not original from the factory. When I got my Ranger, I thought quite a while about how much to clean it. Then I remembered the debate over the cleaning of the Sistine Chapel's frescoes, some thought the cleaning was a sacrilege while others though removing 500 years of soot & dirt revealed the paintings as Michelangelo intended. Besides, I keep all my modern bikes clean, waxed & rust free. So I went over the paint with 0000 steel wool & WD40 & the nickel with Evapo-Rust. The problem with the Ranger of course is that if you want to ride it, which I did, you get into the whole tire issue.




shawn57187 said:


> Funny that you mentioned the Sistine Chapel's frescoes. When they "cleaned" it, they accidentally removed all Michelangelo's dry brush shadows. They even removed details like fingers and eyes.  Now it is arguably ruined.  Your analogy couldn't have exemplified my point better. Better to leave it absolutely original unless you absolutely know it can be restored correctly.
> 
> http://100swallows.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/the-sistine-chapel-cleaning-job/


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## Jeff54 (May 24, 2015)

fat tire trader said:


> I think that the problem with this thread is we don't have an example of a crusty original bike to debate.
> 
> So I am offering an example of one of mine for this purpose.
> 
> ...




Personaly I think that if it's your bike then do what ever the duck you want, new or old, it's yours have fun, period.

yet if you 'restore it' you're required to disclose every detail if bragging or selling otherwise, it's exaggerative and deceptive. 

Now for your bike (below) and  prosperity; I think deciding on restorative painting, it's yours so whatever, while a restorative attempt to recreate its original paint and nickel, your only qualm would be whether another in better condition exists.. 'Is it unique enough to be the best known example, prospective museum placement ?' then leave and preserve as is, but if not, a nice 'copy' of original is an enhancement to the cause, perhaps, inscribe something inside the frame so nobody tries to pass a 'copy' off in the future too. . And or it's your dam bike do as you please yet, always disclose.


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## Jeff54 (May 24, 2015)

Real Steel said:


> .
> 
> It still kills me that I had to sell that dodge...




Geez! whelp I hope ya had the good sense to take laurel and Hardy out of it first!. I'd be in morning if I had that and became compelled to lose it.  dam nice original car!


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## Duck (May 24, 2015)

I can understand getting your knickers in a twist over what someone may have done to a bike you own, but what they do to one you don't? That kinda borders on being "loosely bound", don'tcha think? To each, their own-


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