# THE Motor Master Thread



## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

So there are bits and pieces floating around but I want this thread to bring it all together. Please only post information directly related to the 1938-9 CWC Motor Master. @bricycle tells me he has accounted for nine of these so far. It seems literature is sorely lacking and the only piece of lit I see is the CWC cat page showing the black bike. I would think there should be something out there for starting procedures/operation? Picture credit for the following @toyman. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

Restored black bike sold by @auto1cycle2


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## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

1939 ad


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## catfish (Oct 15, 2020)

I know I have photos of a few. I'll have to dig them out.


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## catfish (Oct 15, 2020)




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## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

catfish said:


> I know I have photos of a few. I'll have to dig them out.
> View attachment 1284896



This one was sold by @sm2501 within the last year I believe. Any updates on this bike? V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

catfish said:


> View attachment 1284898



A few things wrong going on here but any backstory--current owner? V/r Shawn


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## catfish (Oct 15, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> A few things wrong going on here but any backstory--current owner? V/r Shawn




Motorcycle museum in NY.


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## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

A project posted a couple years ago by @VDub Will


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## mrg (Oct 15, 2020)

Was the springer a option?


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## saladshooter (Oct 15, 2020)

The catalog page above states it was an option.


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## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

This one posted by @barracuda Dec 2015. Anyone have any info on it?


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## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

This one sold on Ebay supposedly to a CABE member 2016 whereabouts?


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## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

@Coaster Brake messed with this one for a while. Does anyone know its fate?


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## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2020)

@jkent had this project with a modified frame.


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## saladshooter (Oct 16, 2020)

Here is my 38. It has a belt conversion installed. It looks a little home grown but also shows some age with remnants of an old Red belt melted on the drive wheel. I haven't had time to try and get it running yet but would also be interested in any information about how this engine works.

Thanks
Chad


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## mrg (Oct 16, 2020)

Great project buy I'm curious if the carburetor would even work like that?


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## saladshooter (Oct 16, 2020)

I question that as well..


mrg said:


> Great project buy I'm curious if the carburetor would even work like that?


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## toyman (Oct 16, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> This one posted by @barracuda Dec 2015. Anyone have any info on it?
> 
> View attachment 1284940



This one was mine.I have owned 6 of the 9 or 10 that are out there .I was obsessed with them.I restored 4 of them and sold two unrestored ones to Roger Langeford and he restored one of them.I owned a rolling chassis for about 15 years looking for a motor,then finally gave up and put a Marman motor  on it and restored it.


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## toyman (Oct 16, 2020)




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## toyman (Oct 16, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> A project posted a couple years ago by @VDub Will
> 
> View attachment 1284899
> 
> ...



I owned this one too


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## toyman (Oct 16, 2020)

saladshooter said:


> Here is my 38. It has a belt conversion installed. It looks a little home grown but also shows some age with remnants of an old Red belt melted on the drive wheel. I haven't had time to try and get it running yet but would also be interested in any information about how this engine works.
> 
> Thanks
> Chad
> ...



You will also need the belt cover made and need a Milsco seat.I sold a restored Milsco seat just last year.The seat will cost at least $1000


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## toyman (Oct 16, 2020)

saladshooter said:


> Here is my 38. It has a belt conversion installed. It looks a little home grown but also shows some age with remnants of an old Red belt melted on the drive wheel. I haven't had time to try and get it running yet but would also be interested in any information about how this engine works.
> 
> Thanks
> Chad
> ...



I just noticed that you have the correct seat.Thats a big plus


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## toyman (Oct 16, 2020)

saladshooter said:


> Here is my 38. It has a belt conversion installed. It looks a little home grown but also shows some age with remnants of an old Red belt melted on the drive wheel. I haven't had time to try and get it running yet but would also be interested in any information about how this engine works.
> 
> Thanks
> Chad
> ...



The crank is also wrong but you Could easily bend one to match the original.Another simple fix


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## Freqman1 (Oct 17, 2020)

Does the Motor Master use a centrifugal clutch? Friction? V/r Shawn


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## toyman (Oct 18, 2020)

It's like nothing that I have ever seen before. Centrifugal but wierd


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## toyman (Oct 18, 2020)

catfish said:


> View attachment 1284898



This is one that I have not seen before


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## toyman (Oct 18, 2020)

I meant 5hat black one with the incorrect light and seat.Who owned that one?


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## Freqman1 (Apr 18, 2021)

Still looking for original lit/info/other bikes not already posted on this thread. I would especially like to see an original (or copy) of the owners manual with the starting procedure for these. Thanks, Shawn


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## Coaster Brake (May 1, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> @Coaster Brake messed with this one for a while. Does anyone know its fate?
> 
> View attachment 1284942



I still have this bike. I haven’t messed with it in years but it’s safe in my shop.
Been busy with a different job and picked up a few old cars to tinker with.
Just don’t come here as much as I used to.
Engine has been completely overhauled and test fired on an oversized carb but still haven’t gotten around to tracking down a more suitable replacement.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 4, 2021)

Looking back through the lit I don't see an ad for these in the '38 catalog. My bike has a "C" serial so for sure these were surely introduced in '38. I'd be interested in seeing any '38 lit as well as an owners manual or engine starting procedures. Thanks, Shawn


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## cyclingday (Nov 4, 2021)

I just saw an ad in a 1938 American Bicyclist magazine, that reminded me of the Infinity commercials of a few years ago.
It talks up the Motor Master, but only shows the front wheel sticking out from behind a curtain.
I’m not sure which issue it was in, but I’ll post up a picture if I can find it again.


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## cyclingday (Nov 5, 2021)

This from April 1938 American Bicyclist.


Unfortunately, it doesn’t help much with the technical information, but it does help narrow down the timeline a bit.






I get the feeling, that it was still in the prototype/preproduction phase at that time.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 5, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> This from April 1938 American Bicyclist.View attachment 1507727Unfortunately, it doesn’t help much with the technical information, but it does help narrow down the timeline a bit.
> View attachment 1507728
> View attachment 1507729
> I get the feeling, that it was still in the prototype/preproduction phase at that time.



Thanks Marty. I believe you are correct about it still being in development at this time. I wonder if an issue a month or two later doesn’t have a better accounting. It obviously didn’t make it into the CWC ‘38 cat. V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday (Nov 5, 2021)

I’ve got a few more of those magazines.
I’ll go through them, and see if there’s any more info on the Motormaster.


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## cyclingday (Nov 5, 2021)

Well, I looked through all of the American Bicyclists that I had, and I was only able to find this follow up to the full page ad in the previous issue.








I didn’t see any other advertising in any of the other issues that I had.
The Whizzer kit started being advertised pretty heavily by 1939, so I think the Motormaster was a short lived concept that barely got rolling before it got eclipsed by the far more practical Whizzer kit.


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## cyclingday (Nov 8, 2021)

An interesting, Ridewell by Woodwell version of the Motor Master.


I wonder if there were any distinguishing characteristics to determine a find of one of these models?


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## cyclingday (Nov 8, 2021)

I thought it interesting that the few of these bikes that exist were repainted Red, when apparently they only came in Black.


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## mrg (Nov 8, 2021)

Noticed the Ridewell ad says standard hook type rims in heavier materal and Roadmaster catalog just says standard and wonder about the difference from standard frames with the use of high carbon steel inserts used in the frame joints and hcs tubing in the fork stem.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 9, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> I thought it interesting that the few of these bikes that exist were repainted Red, when apparently they only came in Black.View attachment 1509864



Another reason I'm trying to find out more about these. I was either told, or read somewhere, that these were offered in red in '38. There are maybe a dozen known and only a couple in original paint-both black. It would be interesting to know what the serial numbers of the bikes are as well. I'm still searching for an operators manual or at least the starting procedures. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Nov 9, 2021)

Regarding the motor; I have found the model numbers for the 1.4 HP motors online. 1936--4195, 1936-7--4145, and 1937--4205. The only numbers I can find on mine are the brass plug that says "Evinrude" and 949 with 00081 underneath that and two engine number castings 102161. @bricycle would you have a manual or know a source for these? I'm assuming the outboard engine was used. I'd be interested to know exactly what the differences are between the models and which one(s) the Motormaster used. V/r Shawn


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## bricycle (Nov 9, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Regarding the motor; I have found the model numbers for the 1.4 HP motors online. 1936--4195, 1936-7--4145, and 1937--4205. The only numbers I can find on mine are the brass plug that says "Evinrude" and 949 with 00081 underneath that and two engine number castings 102161. @bricycle would you have a manual or know a source for these? I'm assuming the outboard engine was used. I'd be interested to know exactly what the differences are between the models and which one(s) the Motormaster used. V/r Shawn



Let me do some digging...


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## Freqman1 (Nov 9, 2021)

bricycle said:


> Let me do some digging...



You know way more about outboards than I ever want to know but Elto Ace may be worth investigating as well. V/r Shawn


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## bricycle (Nov 9, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> You know way more about outboards than I ever want to know but Elto Ace may be worth investigating as well. V/r Shawn



The Cub and Mate were .5 hp, Pal and ? were .9 hp, Scout and ? were 1.1 hp, Ace and ? were 1.4 hp
Items likely shared by the Elto Ace and Motor Master were magneto parts, piston, ring, pin, rod parts. Not much else.
Man I've been away from outboards since 2006... memory is shot.


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## bricycle (Nov 9, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Another reason I'm trying to find out more about these. I was either told, or read somewhere, that these were offered in red in '38. There are maybe a dozen known and only a couple in original paint-both black. It would be interesting to know what the serial numbers of the bikes are as well. I'm still searching for an operators manual or at least the starting procedures. V/r Shawn



1938's did come in Red.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 9, 2021)

bricycle said:


> 1938's did come in Red.



Can you provide the source of the info--ad? V/r Shawn


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## bricycle (Nov 10, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Can you provide the source of the info--ad? V/r Shawn



no ad, just seen them in red.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 10, 2021)

bricycle said:


> no ad, just seen them in red.



Have a pic of any original red bikes?


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## bricycle (Nov 10, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Have a pic of any original red bikes?



probably restored, don't know history


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## Freqman1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Yeah I still want to see some lit or an original paint bike. I’m not changing the color of mine but would like to know for sure. V/r Shawn


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## New Mexico Brant (Dec 17, 2021)

From American Bicycist and Motorcycist, Nov. 1938


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## Freqman1 (Dec 17, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> From American Bicycist and Motorcycist, Nov. 1938
> 
> View attachment 1528670



After moving mine around quite a bit I can tell you it is more than 60 lbs! Thanks For the post Brant. V/r Shawn


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## saladshooter (Dec 17, 2021)

I was thinking the same thing!!


Freqman1 said:


> After moving mine around quite a bit I can tell you it is more than 60 lbs! Thanks For the post Brant. V/r Shawn


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## jrapoza (Dec 17, 2021)

Here is the one I bought about 20 years ago.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 17, 2021)

Does anyone have a good, clear pic of the choke lever for one of these? Still would like to see lit explaining the engine starting/stopping procedure or anyone that actually has one of these running to explain this? Thanks, Shawn


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## jrapoza (Dec 19, 2021)

Ask John Stanbury.. He is the master of bicycle motors..


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## Freqman1 (Dec 20, 2021)

jrapoza said:


> Ask John Stanbury.. He is the master of bicycle motors..



Already have and he couldn't provide any information. V/r Shawn


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## 39zep (Dec 31, 2021)




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## CWCMAN (Jan 17, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Does anyone have a good, clear pic of the choke lever for one of these?



Shawn, you have a restored Motor Master, and there are a few others that are restored. Are all those examples missing the choke lever?

Didn't toyman have several Motor Masters, I'm assuming he had them running to provide the starting/stopping procedures?


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## Freqman1 (Jan 17, 2022)

CWCMAN said:


> Shawn, you have a restored Motor Master, and there are a few others that are restored. Are all those examples missing the choke lever?
> 
> Didn't toyman have several Motor Masters, I'm assuming he had them running to provide the starting/stopping procedures?



Yep supposedly my motor was bench fired although I see no indications it ever ran. It does turn over and when I get a chance I’m going to check if it has fire. If so I’m going to try to get it running. I asked @toyman about the starting procedures but never received a reply. V/r Shawn


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## CWCMAN (Jan 17, 2022)

That's amazing to me. Although not as common as the Whizzer motor kit, one would think that someone out there that owns or has owned a Motor Master should know the starting procedures., especially the person that has owned 6 of the10 known.

Come on toyman, tell me you actually enjoyed riding at least one of them 😜


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## toyman (Jan 17, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Yep supposedly my motor was bench fired although I see no indications it ever ran. It does turn over and when I get a chance I’m going to check if it has fire. If so I’m going to try to get it running. I asked @toyman about the starting procedures but never received a reply. V/r Shawn


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## toyman (Jan 17, 2022)

No,I have never started or driven any of the ones that I owned.I will ask Roger how he started them


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## toyman (Jan 17, 2022)

CWCMAN said:


> That's amazing to me. Although not as common as the Whizzer motor kit, one would think that someone out there that owns or has owned a Motor Master should know the starting procedures., especially the person that has owned 6 of the10 known.
> 
> Come on toyman, tell me you actually enjoyed riding at least one of them 😜



Never rode any one of mine.I do know that the motors are pretty gutless. Less than 2 horsepower


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## toyman (Jan 17, 2022)

They are fantastic looking though


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## CWCMAN (Jan 17, 2022)

toyman said:


> Never rode any one of mine.I do know that the motors are pretty gutless. Less than 2 horsepower



They sure are nice to look at. My model H Whizzer I believe is 2.02 HP, and it moves faster than you ever want to go on a bike.


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## toyman (Jan 17, 2022)

CWCMAN said:


> They sure are nice to look at. My model H Whizzer I believe is 2.02 HP, and it moves faster than you ever want to go on a bike.



I call this my hot rod Whizzer.Probably over 6 hp.Hand made jug that is so huge.Look at the piston compared to a stock Whizzer piston.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 17, 2022)

toyman said:


> No,I have never started or driven any of the ones that I owned.I will ask Roger how he started them



Well if he would share the starting procedure that would be great. I’d also like to see an original choke lever on the motor. I can fabricate one but seeing what the original looks like would be very helpful. V/r Shawn


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## toyman (Jan 17, 2022)




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## toyman (Jan 17, 2022)

mrg said:


> Was the springer a option?



Different years


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## toyman (Jan 17, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Well if he would share the starting procedure that would be great. I’d also like to see an original choke lever on the motor. I can fabricate one but seeing what the original looks like would be very helpful. V/r Shawn



I will see if I can get a shot of my choke lever


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## toyman (Jan 17, 2022)

toyman said:


> I will see if I can get a shot of my choke lever


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## mrg (Jan 17, 2022)

I've had a pile of parts including tank, springer, partial motor and other parts, been looking for a frame for yrs, probably end up making a frame & running a whizzer motor.


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## Whizzerick (Jan 18, 2022)

T
This Motor Master is in the January Mecum Auction


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## Freqman1 (Jan 18, 2022)

Whizzerick said:


> T
> This Motor Master is in the January Mecum Auction
> 
> View attachment 1551274
> View attachment 1551273



Looks like it’s missing the choke lever as well. V/r Shawn


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## CWCMAN (Jan 18, 2022)

I’m starting to think that it was a design flaw. Why are all, if not most choke levers missing?

I’d love to see one actually running though.


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## cyclingday (Jan 18, 2022)

CWCMAN said:


> I’m starting to think that it was a design flaw. Why are all, if not most choke levers missing?
> 
> I’d love to see one actually running though.



I think the whole bike was a design flaw.
Just kidding! 
Sort of.
They look great, but it sounds like, none of them are ever ridden with very much success.
Nice display piece though.
I still think it’s strange that the literature says they only came in black, and every body that restores one, paints it red.
I guess, red was the rarest color choice, so now, it’s the most common.
Hmmmm!


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## Freqman1 (Jan 18, 2022)

I’m going to make an effort to get mine running and ride it. Rest assured there will be a video if I get it going! V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday (Jan 18, 2022)

In the lit, it’s says that the bike can be ridden like an ordinary bicycle, with no extra effort involved.
I would be interested to hear the results of that from one of you guys that actually owns one.
There’s no way, you’re riding very far on a Whizzer kit bike, without the assistance of the running engine.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 18, 2022)

cyclingday said:


> In the lit, it’s says that the bike can be ridden like an ordinary bicycle, with no extra effort involved.
> I would be interested to hear the results of that from one of you guys that actually owns one.
> There’s no way, you’re riding very far on a Whizzer kit bike, without the assistance of the running engine.



Even with the compression release this is an animal to pedal very far. Unless there’s a way to disengage the clutch I’m not aware of! V/r Shawn


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## 39zep (Jan 22, 2022)

Before we bury the Cleveland Welding Company/Roadmaster and the MotorMaster for it’s design flaws, lets remember this was 1938, a year before the Whizzer Company released its “D” model prototype. The “D" included a steel cylinder head which made it prone to over heat. A split case motor which tended to leak oil and it also included a drive system that relied on a hard rubber roller that engaged into the rear tire to drive the rear wheel. Back in the early 1980’s my Dad had running D, E and F prototype Whizzers operating out of our garage. I have spent significant time in the saddle on all three models. The "D" was not what you would call easy to start, it did not have a great deal of power and the friction drive did not produce a smooth ride. What your comparing the Motor Master to is a "H" model Whizzer motor that would not come out for another eight years. It was also the Cleveland Welding Company/Roadmaster who took the lead in producing “purpose built bikes” to accommodate the whizzer motor kits. Just my non-bias perspective of course...


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## cyclingday (Jan 22, 2022)

Yep!
No doubt, the MotorMaster was in a league all its own for a time.
Unequaled in styling.


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## razinhellcustomz (Mar 19, 2022)

cyclingday said:


> Yep!
> No doubt, the MotorMaster was in a league all its own for a time.
> Unequaled in styling.



Iv'e never seen these before.. How many years were they made? Cool looking machine.. RideOnn.. Razin..


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## Freqman1 (Mar 20, 2022)

razinhellcustomz said:


> Iv'e never seen these before.. How many years were they made? Cool looking machine.. RideOnn.. Razin..



Part of 1938 and all of 1939 best I can tell. V/r Shaw


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## razinhellcustomz (Mar 21, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Part of 1938 and all of 1939 best I can tell. V/r Shaw



That's cool.. Thanks Shawn... 😎


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