# Schwinn Lightweights Wheel Building



## momo608

Tips or suggestions?

any interest in a wheel building thread?


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## Metacortex

Yes. Also a thread on hub, rim and spoke usage for different years and models would be interesting.


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## Dale Alan

Great idea,I would be very interested .


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## momo608

OK. I suppose the best place to start is to read through the Sheldon Brown website on wheel building to understand the basics.
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Not claiming to be an expert, just a guy who would rather put my money into buying more fun stuff than paying people to do things I should know how to do.

I personally do not use a dish stick or a spoke tension meter, although I would like to have a tension meter just to see out of curiosity where I'm putting my spoke tensions but so far I'm too cheap to buy one. The fact that wheels were successfully built without them for many decades tells me this is not a critical tool in the tool box. Used rims almost always have some sort of damage and perfectly even spoke tensions are not possible to achieve a true wheel. I have wasted a lot of time on used rims so I now do this simple test to see if it's worth the trouble of building them up. Remove the spokes and hub from the rim. Lay the rim on the flat ground and if it does not lay flat or very close to it, junk it. You will have spoke tensions all over the place and some spokes might be no more that finger tight to achieve a true wheel on a bent rim. That's not going to stand up to use and remain true.

How do I find the rear dish setting? 

#1  Finger tighten all the spokes up on my truing stand and eyeball an offset for the rear wheel.





#2 transfer the rear wheel to the bike frame and find the spot on the rim that perfectly centers the rim in the chainstays. Make sure the axle is fully seated all the way back and down in the drop outs, remove the derailleur hanger to do this. Use the axle nuts and washers and tighten them down to simulate the rear hub in the installed position. Good time to tweak your stays and drop outs if things are too tight, loose or crooked.





#3 Find that perfect spot on the rim by spinning it or create one need be by loosening and tightening the spokes using a scale on the stays. Mark it with a marker. Carefully remove the wheel assembly and transfer it back to the truing stand and set your stand up using your mark.

I use this procedure on all my builds and it has not failed to give me perfect wheel dishing on all my bikes.


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## momo608

So when did Schwinn go from 4 cross to 3 cross spoke wheels?

The rims above are 4 cross for the 1960 Continental.


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## Metacortex

From 1960 on Schwinn normally used 4-cross (vs. 3-cross) lacing on higher end bikes, but which ones specifically varied from year to year. I've also seen where they may have run out of a given spoke length and used 3-cross instead of 4-cross, or even vice-versa on a specific bike even though that was not intended.

If you have a specific model or year in mind I can offer more information. For example in 1960 the Continental was laced 4x while the Varsity was 3x. In 1964 the Super Sport and Sierra were laced 4x while the Continental and Varsity were 3x.

PS: Glad to see you back...


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## GTs58

momo608 said:


> So when did Schwinn go from 4 cross to 3 cross spoke wheels?
> 
> The rims above are 4 cross for the 1960 Continental.




I'm not sure, I have a 71 wheel that is 3 cross. My late 61 Conti is 4 cross.


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## Schwinn499

I have quite a few different ones....ill have to look.


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## momo608

I read somewhere that the spokes were not factory overlapped on the last cross on early Schwinn's. When I got the 60 Conti they were not but I don't know if they were respoked at some point. I do know it had the original rims but unfortunately they had to go because of damage. If I remember right it was said that overlapping the last spoke was problematic for the assembly line. The first time I respoked these I copied what was there, the second time after learning more about wheel building, I overlapped them. Sure helps to keep the rim more true upon assembly.


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## Metacortex

Where was that said? I'm sure mistakes were made since the wheels were hand-built, but the intention was standard 3x or 4x lacing (depending on model and year).


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## momo608

I found that on one of my hours long information searches a couple years ago, could very well be bogus info. It stuck in my mind and seeing that my rims were laced that way I thought it might have merit. Seemed like a reputable source at the time. You do understand that I'm not talking about 3x or 4x lacing but the last overlap (cross) on the spoke being woven under instead of on top?

Interlacing


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## momo608

lacing. Doesn't help much but it's fun to watch if you haven't seen it in a while.


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## momo608

Schwinn499 said:


> I have quite a few different ones....ill have to look.




I was looking at a few of your early 60's bikes. The most original bikes do not appear to have interlaced spokes. There is something to this. It appears that the wide spread use of interlacing spokes is something that developed in the mid to late 60's

https://www.flickr.com/photos/schwinn499/11884067153/in/photostream/


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## momo608

OK then, early 60's Schwinn lightweight spokes were NOT! interlaced from the factory.


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## rhenning

You are probably right but because these were hand not machine assembled wheels it probably depended more on who was assembling the wheel than any Schwinn protocol or practice.  You can build the wheels quicker if you don't interlace them.  Roger


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## momo608

I'm pretty confident about it now particularly when I can find proof in original examples beside my own. I did some more researching since writing the above Not sure why and when the switch was made but there does seem to be consensus that an interlaced wheel is better to guard against the chain getting tangled in the rear wheel spokes.  As far as and interlaced wheel being a stronger wheel than a non interlaced wheel, that appears to be more speculative than anything else. I also have come to the conclusion that since interlacing is common practice now and has been for very long time, it is assumed it has always been done this way.


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## Jeff54

Spoke tension. Or piano tuning without special tools other than spoke wrench or, a little tougher and could be harsh on nuts, small crescent wrench.

When I was a kid, too poor to buy tools and such, rebuilding sting ray's I would take the spokes out to polish a rim. later, whenever I moved on too Varsities, (Poor-man's Schwinn 10 speeds) I'd do the same thing, but, I'd noticed something with the sting ray rims which I adapted to lightweights as I also wanted rims balanced as good as I could. I always turned my ten speed handlebar up high because leaning down racer style hurt my back. (growing pains) And I still do now, almost 45 year later. So, anyways I always rode with the 'look mom no hands' style. with handle bar turned up I could fall to front and hit brake by pushing them in verses pulling. I hardly ever turned with the handle bars, but balancing into it. And if I had too, I'd lightly touch the brake handles verses bars.

Can't remember how I knew to lace them properly but possibly just do 1 rim at a time so the other could be copied.  but, do recall that, after a while I knew what to do. Besides, if you do it wrong, it wont fit.

So, the point is, you really need balanced rims to pull this off. When reassembling the rim, I'd tighten the spokes with fingers as tight as I could then, with spoke wrench, I'd continue tightening and ping each spoke as I did so. Moreover it's piano tuning, pinging all of the spokes until they have a sense of the same key. .  I'd set the rim inside of the drop outs with each side equal and chain tensioned where I'd want it for normal riding.  I've used any old thing to check balance as I tightened them, even simply 1 finger placed in the bend wrinkle while eyeballing center. but you could just use a piece of masking tape on each side of the drop out bars. they'll flex and bend which will reset or you can push em back. But it saves having to use a real tool or continuous placing of something to help.

Now I've never raced bikes, never joined any clubs, nor have any bicycling friends or ride partners.  but, did travel long distances up too 40 mile round trips (80 miles) with them, just for a cruise and or because it was my only means of transportation while in High school. And later during 1978-80 to and forth from work.

This has been so many years, I'd forget just what I did, except in 82 or 3 A shop hired me to tune up all of their beach rentals on Saturday and Sundays in Venice beach Calif. . maybe  a 100 or so were all wacked up and unfortunately I tuned em all so dam good, within 3 weekends they let me go because it was all sweet and other wise already had long term sales or rental people whom it was me or them because there was nothing left for me to tune up. . LOL. Their sales or rental guys, none of them had ever seen anybody tune those old junkers so well, and quick So, I recall some of it.. Yet mostly recall all the girls putting on shoe skates.  At the time the bike shop operated out of large metal shipping containers, I doona 3-4 or more, and included shoe skates. And, some of those girls, obviously, liked to tease when lacing them skates. [grin]

Anyways, it's not a perfect science and I don't think I ever got any rims piano tuned too perfect key, but so close by ear alone, every thing I've ever tuned, even today, while I have less patience or time, the test only passes on lightweights, middle and heavy, when I can ride and complete turns around street corners, with no hands. And I've never piano tuned a rim that failed the 'Look mom, no hands' test.

There are exceptions to tuning them, You can rebalance a rim that does not lay flat but you're not going to get the same key in the areas where one side has to pull that warp out. Sometimes you can just bend them back decently too. However, The pull side will ping a high note but hold side, for lack of a better description of the sound,  will pong in a lower key. They'll ride though, and balance well too, and take some good beatings yet,  if you're going to play rough on em, require regular tuning. .


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## Schwinn499

Huh?


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## GTs58

Schwinn499 said:


> Huh?




Read it again. Then you'll know even less, But it is a good example of honest to goodness rambling BS.

 I need to balance my Varsity rims. Do you use the stick on lead weights or the hammer on type?


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## momo608

Hot chicks in skates eh! The tuning fork idea is or probably was in common practice before tension meters. I suppose pro wheel builders into perfectly trued and tensioned racing rims would be laughed out of the business these days if they didn't use tension meters. The lacing of a wheel using another already laced wheel for comparison is good advice. I have done quite a few of these now and I still need to do this sometimes. I do the first one in record speed, on the second, what happened! Unfortunately you usually don't know things have gone wrong until near the end of the lacing process. Going off the tell tale spoke marks on used hubs is usually where the problem starts for me. Doing builds months apart ain't helpin either. Using Sheldon Browns instructions beyond the key spoke has been problematic for me. Too confusing when you can't see which way the spokes were laced through the hub. Photos instead of color coded drawings would  have been a lot better.  

Here is something rarely if ever addressed in wheel building threads and blogs. Spokes and nipples, there is a difference besides actual lengths.

Vintage Schwinn Union spokes have a lot more thread on them as you can see in a comparison photo between the Schwinn at the top and the next Wheelmaster, DT and then the last Wheelsmith spoke. Obviously more thread gives you are lot more adjustment. Better than 3mm in this case. So getting the right length spoke is critical if you only have a couple millimeters to work with.

Spoke nipples, there is an average 2mm difference between 12mm or 1/2" VS 16mm or 5/8" before you run out of threads to increase tension. All the old Schwinn's used 5/8" nipples. Good to have both lengths on hand, I can't remember now how many times I was bailed out by this using spokes that were either a little too long or short. A couple mm's can make all the difference. Very rarely have I had to Dremel off a spoke or two that was protruding beyond the slot in the nipple head but the shorter nipples saved the day. Not all 27" rims are the same, sometimes 2mm is all it takes for your new spokes to be unusable.

I just did some Sun Ringle m13's on Normandy hubs for my Sports Tourer and Superior. The stock Schwinn spokes were 306mm. I ordered Wheelsmith SS spokes 306mm. They only worked because I had the 12mm nipples, short thread problem. On the rears I ended up buying an extra set of 50 spokes in 302mm for the freewheel side of both rims to make it work. In hindsight I would have bought 302mm with 5/8 nipples for this project.








These spoke nipples are all tightened to finger tight on the same length and brand spokes. Different brand nipples including the same ones above with the exception of Union nipples.


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## rustjunkie

Jeff54 said:


> Spoke tension. Or piano tuning.,.
> 
> ...Can't remember how I knew to lace them properly but possibly just do 1 rim at a time so the other could be copied.  but, do recall that, after a while I knew what to do. Besides, if you do it wrong, it wont fit.
> 
> ...When reassembling the rim, I'd tighten the spokes with fingers as tight as I could then, with spoke wrench, I'd continue tightening and ping each spoke as I did so. Moreover it's piano tuning, pinging all of the spokes until they have a sense of the same key. .  I'd set the rim inside of the drop outs with each side equal and chain tensioned where I'd want it for normal riding.  I've used any old thing to check balance as I tightened them, even simply 1 finger placed in the bend wrinkle while eyeballing center...
> 
> Anyways, it's not a perfect science and I don't think I ever got any rims piano tuned too perfect key...
> 
> There are exceptions to tuning them, You can rebalance a rim that does not lay flat but you're not going to get the same key in the areas where one side has to pull that warp out. Sometimes you can just bend them back decently too..




All true! It's nice to have the "right" tools, but there's more than one way to climb a hill


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## momo608

Here is one example of two nos 27" wheels I recently bought. An exciting find at a very good cost in my book. Pretty much all I do is restorations of one sort or another. I constantly ask myself especially when I spend gobs of time on something to get things right, how good was this when it was new. The answer in most cases is probably not very. Unfortunately in the restoration business not very good is not acceptable even if it was that way when new. It is nice to see though first hand by going back in time in a way, pulling out something from the original box that was never used or abused and see just how good it was.

These 1976 dated wheels with french hubs are not built very well at all and I assume these were meant to bolt on and go. I suppose the purpose of that true tag is to indicate that these rims have been trued. I would give it just an OK in that department. There is a slight wobble in both rims, not bad but certainly unacceptable if you paid a shop to build you up some new wheels. Spoke tensions are all over the place with some spokes being close to being loose. There is a sticky residue on the rims which I guess is a rust preventive, thanks for that. Not one spec of rust to be found. The spokes themselves look as bad as spokes you see on your typical 40 to 50 year old used Schwinn.That plating was crap from day one. The axle cones are adjusted on the tight side, no play at all. I leave mine with a "hint" of play. If I remember right, I got that from the Schwinn service manual as the way to properly do it. Nevertheless very very happy to have these time capsule wheels.


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## Wheelson

My Schwinn shop experience started in 1966, and I seem to recall that all wheels for "lightweights" were interlaced. But when I went to Schwinn service school in the late '60s, we were taught wheelbuilding on 20in. rims - certainly not interlaced nor was interlacing mentioned. I'm not sure when Schwinn started machine building wheels, perhaps in the early '70s. I do remember the bike boom wheels of the mid-70s always came in horrible shape, loose spokes, little or no hand truing.


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## Jeff54

Wheelson said:


> My Schwinn shop experience started in 1966, and I seem to recall that all wheels for "lightweights" were interlaced. But when I went to Schwinn service school in the late '60s, we were taught wheelbuilding on 20in. rims - certainly not interlaced nor was interlacing mentioned. I'm not sure when Schwinn started machine building wheels, perhaps in the early '70s. I do remember the bike boom wheels of the mid-70s always came in horrible shape, loose spokes, little or no hand truing.



The rumors I understood, back then, which may have been based on yet unfounded but, companies were moving parts manufacturing and assembly lines to Mexico then shipping to Chicago  hence the poor quality so, was it so? Or did Schwinn "approved" pot smoking at work and or  put beer machines in the factory lounges?


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## momo608

Wheelson said:


> My Schwinn shop experience started in 1966, and I seem to recall that all wheels for "lightweights" were interlaced. But when I went to Schwinn service school in the late '60s, we were taught wheelbuilding on 20in. rims - certainly not interlaced nor was interlacing mentioned. I'm not sure when Schwinn started machine building wheels, perhaps in the early '70s. I do remember the bike boom wheels of the mid-70s always came in horrible shape, loose spokes, little or no hand truing.




Thanks for the input! I assume you were not taught with tension meters or any other modern gizmos. I would be interested on what they said about how to spoke tensioning or anything else you can remember.


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## Wheelson

momo608 said:


> Thanks for the input! I assume you were not taught with tension meters or any other modern gizmos. I would be interested on what they said about how to spoke tensioning or anything else you can remember.



As I recall (almost 50yrs. later), it was a very basic, hands-on class. No spoke tension meters or gizmos, no dishing or interlacing. We were given hubs, spokes, and 20in. rims. The components had been pre-selected. Schwinn taught a method of loading the hub that was different than what I had been taught in the shop by the "old timers" in that all the spokes were loaded into the hub before the first spoke is attached to the rim. Basically (and quickly!) the hub is held in the left hand and 3 spokes are dropped downward through the top flange (with a hole between each), and then 3 are dropped through the bottom flange with the top spoke hanging* to the right* of the corresponding bottom spoke. These 6 spokes are then used as a handle while loading the remaining "heads up" spokes, then the hub is flipped and the remaining spokes loaded. Use a flat table, lay everything out and begin attaching spokes. This is where the spoke crossing (and interlacing) takes place. I could go on but I won't unless anyone is interested. The advantages of this method is that you can walk away mid-build and come back a week later and pick back up. The disadvantages are that you have to be very careful not to scratch aluminum anodized rims with all those spokes being moved around. Also, I'd have to look but I think this builds a mirror image rim and you might have issues if you are into the pulling spokes inside or outside thing for the rear wheel. Too much info for now, probably a video out there somewhere anyway,  but I'll add that I do use this method to this day and have had great results with many, many wheels. YMMV


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## Wheelson

Jeff54 said:


> The rumors I understood, back then, which may have been based on yet unfounded but, companies were moving parts manufacturing and assembly lines to Mexico then shipping to Chicago  hence the poor quality so, was it so? Or did Schwinn "approved" pot smoking at work and or  put beer machines in the factory lounges?



I never heard the Mexico rumor. I just remember how bad the wheels were in mid-'74, when I began my second stint in the bike shop after a 4-year break courtesy of the U.S. Army. This was especially true of the lower-end Varsity and perhaps Continental. Likely this was when they went to machine building and, because of the bike boom, probably saw little or no touchup by human hands, assuming the machine was set up properly to begin with. Believe it or not, I'm seeing the same thing with new bikes at my post-engineering career retirement bike shop gig.


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## momo608

Getting more serious about the quality of my wheel building with my new spoke tension meter and came across this.

*Wheelbuilding Tip No. 19 – How Tight is Right?*

We’ve covered how tension contributes to the structure. I’ve showed a few ways to measure it. We’ve also discussed the importance of even tension on each side of the wheel.

But how tight is right? In other words, what is optimal tension?
*About Tension Levels*
(1) There is no one correct tension for all wheels. Resist generalities, like “tighter is  better.” No more true of spoke tension than of tire pressure. Situations vary widely.

(2)  Even with low spoke tension, wire  wheels can efficiently support very large loads with minimal flex. Damon Rinard’s famous stiffness test should have put misconceptions to rest. But they’re out there like zombies (… ideas that should have died long ago in the face of evidence or logic, but just keep shambling forward, eating peoples’ brains).

Having tested spoke wire for years and made and sold millions of spokes, I will confirm the single greatest defensible argument for higher spoke tension is its contribution to spoke fatigue life by minimizing moments of zero tension during load cycles.


*How Much is Too Much or Too Little?*
(1) Don’t build extra tight to keep a wheel from vibrating apart. Spoke tension is for supporting loads. Thread compounds (or nylock nuts) are for loosening prevention. The effects overlap but don’t mix them up.

(2) Extra tension is not the best way to get components to settle in. Spokes that need to be bent straight, nipples that need to be forced down into a lasting position, these are best achieved with dedicated manipulations (likestress relieving).

(3) Rim deformation at the nipple can be a bad sign. In the old days (decades ago) designs existed that were not stable until deformed. Today, that is no longer the case. When a rim deforms from tension, that zone enters its plastic phase. A structure with a major component in, or  close, to  plastic deformation is vulnerable to fatigue and failure. A well-designed rim should accept spoke tension without deformation. There are exceptions. None of this is black and white.

(4) Excessive tension takes longer to achieve, like an acrobat balancing an extra heavy stack of props. The customer pays for this. Is it a waste of money? And if you the builder don’t charge, then is it wasting yours?

(5) Inadequate tension is indicated by flex noticed and resented by the rider, noise as the wheel rotates (and spokes rub), and short spoke fatigue life (assuming quality spokes to begin with).

(6) An overly tight wire wheel is prone to sudden deformation with little warning. The well known result is often called a “taco.” It’s up there with crank or handlebar breakage for danger. Creeping up on this possibility is not worth it especially. Like recklessly unrolling your sleeping bag at night, on the Grand Canyon’s rim. If you make a mistake, it may be too late! I am more curious about  acceptable low tension points than where is the high tension flash point.

Today a huge number of rims, spokes, and hubs are designed to support 100kgf of tension in each spoke with very high reliability. It would be a  generalization to say 100kgf is “right” but if you go higher,  know why and how much. Using half, on the other hand, is rarely ugly.





*About Tension Levels*
(1) There is no one correct tension for all wheels. Resist generalities, like “tighter is  better.” No more true of spoke tension than of tire pressure. Situations vary widely.

(2)  Even with low spoke tension, wire  wheels can efficiently support very large loads with minimal flex. Damon Rinard’s famous stiffness test should have put misconceptions to rest. But they’re out there like zombies (… ideas that should have died long ago in the face of evidence or logic, but just keep shambling forward, eating peoples’ brains).

Having tested spoke wire for years and made and sold millions of spokes, I will confirm the single greatest defensible argument for higher spoke tension is its contribution to spoke fatigue life by minimizing moments of zero tension during load cycles.




Don’t crank that tension too high!


*How Much is Too Much or Too Little?*
(1) Don’t build extra tight to keep a wheel from vibrating apart. Spoke tension is for supporting loads. Thread compounds (or nylock nuts) are for loosening prevention. The effects overlap but don’t mix them up.

(2) Extra tension is not the best way to get components to settle in. Spokes that need to be bent straight, nipples that need to be forced down into a lasting position, these are best achieved with dedicated manipulations (likestress relieving).

(3) Rim deformation at the nipple can be a bad sign. In the old days (decades ago) designs existed that were not stable until deformed. Today, that is no longer the case. When a rim deforms from tension, that zone enters its plastic phase. A structure with a major component in, or  close, to  plastic deformation is vulnerable to fatigue and failure. A well-designed rim should accept spoke tension without deformation. There are exceptions. None of this is black and white.

(4) Excessive tension takes longer to achieve, like an acrobat balancing an extra heavy stack of props. The customer pays for this. Is it a waste of money? And if you the builder don’t charge, then is it wasting yours?

(5) Inadequate tension is indicated by flex noticed and resented by the rider, noise as the wheel rotates (and spokes rub), and short spoke fatigue life (assuming quality spokes to begin with).

(6) An overly tight wire wheel is prone to sudden deformation with little warning. The well known result is often called a “taco.” It’s up there with crank or handlebar breakage for danger. Creeping up on this possibility is not worth it especially. Like recklessly unrolling your sleeping bag at night, on the Grand Canyon’s rim. If you make a mistake, it may be too late! I am more curious about  acceptable low tension points than where is the high tension flash point.

Today a huge number of rims, spokes, and hubs are designed to support 100kgf of tension in each spoke with very high reliability. It would be a  generalization to say 100kgf is “right” but if you go higher,  know why and how much. Using half, on the other hand, is rarely ugly.

*How to Manage Tension*
(1) Get a tensiometer. Riders depend on builders knowing tension. They deserve it. Check these cool Mavic tension tools, built for internal use.




Notice the bottom right cam. Lever rotates to push the spoke against a compression spring hidden in the tool’s mid-section.




Wider spacing for low spoke count.




Hozan’s model. A handlebar grip, perfect!




DT’s gem.




Park’s workhorse.




Remember me? Over 15,000 sold.




Aircraft control wire tension gauge. We’re not the only ones who need to know.

(2) Use a good fitting spoke wrench. Some of the options are discussed here.

(3) Use an effective lubricant. Pedro’s, Park, Phil, Chevron, all have good options. Lube the nipple-to-rim seat and, unless you employ a dedicated spoke thread compound (like Spoke Prep™), lube the threads as well. Spoke windup, even when resisted by a holder or plier, slows you down and weakens the spoke at the first thread.

(4) Keep records and observations. Data is the holy grail for engineering. Why? Because a scarcity leads to bad decisions. Listen to people with lots of data. It sometimes takes a thousand examples before a phenomenon is well understood. In cycling, we draw conclusions earlier, but more data = better solutions, especially when talking tension.

http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/wheelbuilding-tip-19-tight-right/


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