# Was There Really A 1949 Model Phantom?



## GTs58 (Jun 5, 2016)

Or is there a model year misconception due to the 1949 serial numbers associated to the bike? Was the Phantom actually released and sold in 1949? If so, when, and is there any Schwinn literature stating a release date for the Phantom?
Any hard facts on this would be appreciated!


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## Adamtinkerer (Jun 10, 2016)

The TR Findley catalog archives show '49s top model as the Deluxe Autocycle. Same bike essentially.


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## Vintage Paintworx (Jun 10, 2016)

Didn't they come out around Xmas of 49?


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## GTs58 (Sep 21, 2017)

Vintage Paintworx said:


> Didn't they come out around Xmas of 49?




I think you are correct. No facts yet proving there were Phantoms produced for the 1949 model year. 

It seems that everyone believes there were actually1949 model Phantoms due to the fact they had a late 4th quarter 1949 serial number. Schwinn's model year changeover usually started with bikes wearing November and later serial numbers, and in some cases slightly earlier than November. The 1950 Phantom apparently had an early release or debut in late 49 for Christmas sales and technically they were not a 1949 model. The earliest real Phantom serial number I've personally come across had a very late October stamping. If anyone has some info that would verify a legitimate 1949 model Phantom please share it. 

A couple brand new models that had an early release, and I'm sure there were a few more.
1954 Jaguar ballooner
1957 Jaguar middleweight
1958 Tornado


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## Maskadeo (Sep 21, 2017)

I have SN S300146. Probably November 2nd or 3rd 1949. No Phantom decal on the guard.


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## WES PINCHOT (Sep 21, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> I think you are correct. No facts yet proving there were Phantoms produced for the 1949 model year.
> 
> It seems that everyone believes there were actually1949 model Phantoms due to the fact they had a late 4th quarter 1949 serial number. Schwinn's model year changeover usually started with bikes wearing November and later serial numbers, and in some cases slightly earlier than November. The 1950 Phantom apparently had an early release or debut in late 49 for Christmas sales and technically they were not a 1949 model. The earliest real Phantom serial number I've personally come across had a very late October stamping. If anyone has some info that would verify a legitimate 1949 model Phantom please share it.
> 
> ...




AS A TEEN BACK IN THE DAY, I HEARD THAT THE 1949 MODELS CAME OUT IN THE FALL
OF THE YEAR.  SO THE BLACK PHANTOM WOULD HAVE COME OUT BY DEC. OF '48 FOR
CHRISTMAS.

AND THE 1950 RED AND GREEN PHANTOMS LIKE WISE CAME OUT IN THE
FALL OF 1949,  I HAD A RED PHANTOM SERIAL NUMBER DATED LATE '49, THAT
COULD HAVE COME OUT FOR CHRISTMAS.

I DON'T HAVE THE RED PHANTOM  ANYMORE, BUT THE NEW OWNER A CABER
HAS IT AND CAN CONFIRM THE SERIAL NUMBER DATE.  ANY ONE WITH AN
EARLY BLACK PHANTOM CAN YOU CHECK OUT THE SERIAL NUMBER.

ANOTHER INTERESTING FACT.  THE FIRST PHANTOMS HAD A MESINGER
B-1 STYLE NOT THE DEEP SKIRTED PHANTOM SEAT WE ALL KNOW. 
I HAVE SEEN IT IN SCHWINN ADS.

THE EARLY PHANTOMS DID NOT HAVE A DECAL 'BLACK PHANTOM' ON THE
CHAINGUARD.  THE EARLY RED PHANTOM DID NOT HAVE THE 'PHANTOM'
DECAL EITHER.

AND THE PHANTOM STYLE REAR CARRIER TAIL/BREAK LIGHT WAS AVAILABLE
AS AN OPTION ON THE I948 B 607 AUTOCYCLE.  
I HAVE SEEN AN EARLY AD FOR IT.


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## GTs58 (Sep 21, 2017)

Maskadeo said:


> I have SN S300146. Probably November 2nd or 3rd 1949. No Phantom decal on the guard.




I can imagine a few reasons why the first batch or two didn't have a guard decal. Not every Schwinn during this time was named or had a name decal on the guard. The first production Corvette 5 speeds had proto decals so it seems the decaling decision on this new mid year model was a WTF do we do situation.


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## GTs58 (Sep 21, 2017)

WES PINCHOT said:


> AS A TEEN BACK IN THE DAY, I HEARD THAT THE 1949 MODELS CAME OUT IN THE FALL
> OF THE YEAR.  SO THE BLACK PHANTOM WOULD HAVE COME OUT BY DEC. OF * ('48) FOR
> CHRISTMAS.
> .




I definitely would not call a new model being released in the fall of 1949 a 1949 model. That would be nuts in any type of product line. If it was released in June July then it could be considered a NEW 1949 model. Years ago all the American car manufactures had their new model year cars on the lots in Sept but they were not considered that years *new* models. The 57 middleweight Jaguar was also released early but nobody considers those as a 1956 model.

 * Error on the year.


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## petritl (Sep 22, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> I definitely would not call a new model being released in the fall of 1949 a 1949 model. That would be nuts in any type of product line. If it was released in June July then it could be considered a NEW 1949 model. Years ago all the American car manufactures had their new model year cars on the lots in Sept but they were not considered that years *new* models. The 57 middleweight Jaguar was also released early but nobody considers those as a 1956 model.
> 
> * Error on the year.




Sounds similar to the 1964.5 Ford Mustang debate.


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## bulldog1935 (Sep 22, 2017)

FWIW, my old Raleigh frame s/n dated May '76, and purchased in the fall of '76, is outfitted and cataloged as a '77 model.
My International frame dated Aug '74, is definitely a '75 model.


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## WES PINCHOT (Sep 22, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> I definitely would not call a new model being released in the fall of 1949 a 1949 model. That would be nuts in any type of product line. If it was released in June July then it could be considered a NEW 1949 model. Years ago all the American car manufactures had their new model year cars on the lots in Sept but they were not considered that years *new* models. The 57 middleweight Jaguar was also released early but nobody considers those as a 1956 model.
> 
> * Error on the year.



NOT MY " * "! 
HOW DID YOU INSERT " * " IN MY POST?
AS A TEEN BACK IN THE DAY, I HEARD THAT THE 1949 MODELS CAME OUT IN THE FALL
OF THE YEAR. SO THE '1949' BLACK PHANTOM WOULD HAVE COME OUT IN DEC. OF '48 FOR
CHRISTMAS.


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## Saving Tempest (Sep 22, 2017)

petritl said:


> Sounds similar to the 1964.5 Ford Mustang debate.




It WAS a half year model, just like replacement season on TV.

PS I had a fellow high school rock bandmate who bought an actual '65. He got drunk and tore it in half across two large combines at the farm equipment dealer next to the high school. Survived by not being belted and lying down before impact.

It took getting kicked out of a law firm and an alcoholic girlfriend leaving him as well before anything changed.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 22, 2017)

Based on what I've been able to gather I'm inclined to think it may have been a late summer/early fall release. In Geoff's Heavy weight book it shows a partial hardware co. ad dated April 19, 1948 and is showing the Deluxe Autocycle as the top offering. Of course the 'comic book' catalog of 1949 does not depict the Phantom either. What makes me wonder though is the appearance of the 'Phantom' style rack with light on the '48 B6 which I believe was painted the main color of the bike. In 1949 this rack was offered again offered on the B6 (with white light) in addition to the non-rivet Phantom style seat. Lastly in the ad I posted of the '50 Phantom (which I believe really shows a '49 bike) it does not say anything about the Phantom being a 'new' model. You would think if it was introduced in '50 there would be a lot of hoopla over it? Ok nothing definitive but nuggets for thought. I would really like to see a '49 dealer sheet to see what was offered. V/r Shawn


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## chevbel57 (Sep 22, 2017)

Here is a Nov. 1949 original Red phantom which I acquired from my buddy Wes. F326178


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## GTs58 (Sep 22, 2017)

11/10/1949 ------------------ F321358 ---------------- F326178
Cool, looks like your BB shell was the last one stamped that day.


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## WES PINCHOT (Sep 23, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> 11/10/1949 ------------------ F321358 ---------------- F326178
> Cool, looks like your BB shell was the last one stamped that day.



RIGHT ON!


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## phantom (Sep 23, 2017)

WES PINCHOT said:


> RIGHT ON!



Just my opinion. That red 49 could be the most valuable Phantom on the planet. Unless there actually is a blue 55 boys somewhere in decent condition.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 23, 2017)

phantom said:


> Just my opinion. That red 49 could be the most valuable Phantom on the planet. Unless there actually is a blue 55 boys somewhere in decent condition.




There is a blue boys bike but only about a condition 5. There is also a black bike still in the shipping box. V/r Shawn


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## phantom (Sep 23, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> There is a blue boys bike but only about a condition 5. There is also a black bike still in the shipping box. V/r Shawn



I have a few books around here that indicate all 49 Phantoms were black and the red and green came out in 50.


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## GTs58 (Sep 23, 2017)

Here is a May 23, and April 18,1949 Schwinn list for Salt Lake Hardware Co and absolutely no mention of a Phantom. Guess there were no actual 1949 Phantoms, just 1950 models with late 49 serial numbers. This is the only 1949 list I can find.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd like to see an ad or dealer list from about August '49. Call it a hunch but I think the Phantom was released in '49 and not as a '50 model. V/r Shawn


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## Jon Olson (Sep 23, 2017)

I have a green Phantom (BB "G#'s" 1950) and a Pea Picker 1970 with a 1969 frame. I've been told that Schwinn would use frames from a prior year. Both bicycles are original paint. Could this be the reason for the red 1949? I've also read that red and green Phantom came out in 1950.


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## GTs58 (Sep 23, 2017)

On my Corvette 5 speed Registry I have quite a few November 27, 1961 entries and all those bikes were built as 1962 models and many of those had a 1962 cast date on the crank. I believe it was the Nov 16th serial numbers that were on the standard 3 speed Corvettes built for the next years model. Schwinn's model year change over _normally_ began with the Novembers serial numbered frames.
The serial number was stamped on the drop out component before it was attached to the frame so the idea of having the previous years frames stocked is only partially true.


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## Saving Tempest (Sep 23, 2017)

I had a 1969 Dodge Dart 4-door with what I'm told was a leftover '68 'Super' Slant Six (225 cu. in.) engine, but Chrysler was known for using all they had because of perpetual financial troubles.

I doubt Schwinn had any problems like that in the late 40s.


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## juanitasmith13 (Sep 24, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> Here is a May 23, and April 18,1949 Schwinn list for Salt Lake Hardware Co and absolutely no mention of a Phantom. Guess there were no actual 1949 Phantoms, just 1950 models with late 49 serial numbers. This is the only 1949 list I can find.
> 
> Note all the handle-bars w/cross brace....


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## phantom (Sep 24, 2017)

Yeah but that's  only a few pages from a Hardware store, hardly a complete list.. I'll look for what I have around here for the 49 in documentation as well. Doesn't Chevbel57's post above clearly indicate a 49?


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## cyclingday (Sep 24, 2017)

I'm of the school of thought, that the Phantom series was manufactured in 1949 for the end of the year Christmas release.
So does that make it a 1949 or 1950 model?
Every kid that got one for Christmas, was riding his shiny new bike in 1950.
But, if you turned the bike over and looked at the serial number, it was manufactured and sold in 1949.
Virtually no early advertising in 1949 lists the Phantom as Schwinn's top of the line model.
The B607 Auto-Cycle De Luxe was top of the line in 1949.


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## GTs58 (Sep 24, 2017)

phantom said:


> Yeah but that's  only a few pages from a Hardware store, hardly a complete list.. I'll look for what I have around here for the 49 in documentation as well. *Doesn't Chevbel57's post above clearly indicate a 49*?




Chevbel57's Phantom would be considered a 1950 model with that late year serial number. Like I said a hundred times, the model year change over for Schwinn started with the bikes wearing a 4 quarter serial number.  

General Motor's change over for the Corvettes is in June. If I purchase a new 2018 Sting Ray in October and the car was built in September 2017 does that mean this car is a 2017 model? Since the 1950 Phantom had an early release you might see some with a dated "serial number" that is from October and maybe even September, or possibly a little earlier. The serial number date does not indicate when the bike was built or what model year the bike actually is.


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## phantom (Sep 24, 2017)

Classic Schwinn Bicycles published by William Love MBI 2003 page 52 is pretty clear to me there was a 49 Model that was sold as a 49 model. I think we're all good here.


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## GTs58 (Sep 24, 2017)

phantom said:


> Classic Schwinn Bicycles published by William Love MBI 2003 page 52 is pretty clear to me there was a 49 Model that was sold as a 49 model. I think we're all good here.




I'll have to look that up. What does it say and what did he base his information on? A late 49 serial number?  I've seen so many myths and false information in print and on the internet it boggles my mind. Show me some legitimate untouched Phantoms with mid year serial numbers and that would be proof positive there was actually a 1949 model year Phantom. I have yet to see one. He said she said doesn't cut it and rumors spread faster than the truth. I would really love to see some hard facts that proves there was a 1949 Phantom. I have seen a December 1949 purchase receipt for a Phantom but that only proves these early release 1950 models were available for Christmas sales.


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## Cowboy in NC (Sep 24, 2017)

Hey Guys,
   Lots of discussion about this question... It is more simple than that to me anyway. If a Phantom has a `49 Serial Number---It is a `49, no matter when it was sold...
It was made in `49 and is a `49. Pretty easy...------------Cowboy
But, have fun with your discussions...


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## phantom (Sep 24, 2017)

It's a good topic.....This was discussed in some detail on another forum. Harvie had/has a # FO75##3 Phantom build date 5-4-49... To me that would be a 49 I don't care when it was sold.  This link also mentions a 49 twice but I suppose it could be false. http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/schwinnbike.htm  Also the Anniversary Phantoms were advertised as reproductions of the 49 Phantoms, that is why their serial numbers run G000001 through G0005000   1949 had a number run from G000100 to G003166. I would like to believe it's more than a coincidence.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 24, 2017)

phantom said:


> Classic Schwinn Bicycles published by William Love MBI 2003 page 52 is pretty clear to me there was a 49 Model that was sold as a 49 model. I think we're all good here.




Actually teh discussion starts on page 51 but offers nothing definitive other than the authors words that the Phantom was introduced in 1949. A May serial number on the other hand certainly would indicate a '49 release date. Any pics of Harvie's bike? V/r Shawn


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## phantom (Sep 24, 2017)

Personally I want to believe there were 49's. or that 49 serial numbers are technically 49's. So in this situation I would be defending that claim. The skeptics have the burden to disprove my claim, and that can't be done. LOL  see below:

If the judge or jury believes the *plaintiff *( AKA skeptic) and defendant equally, the *plaintiff* has failed to meet his burden of proof and his claim must fail. In other words, the tie goes to the defendant. The defendant *does not have to prove anything.* The defense is free to simply poke holes in the case of the *plaintiff, skeptic.*


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## GTs58 (Sep 24, 2017)

Cowboy in NC said:


> Hey Guys,
> Lots of discussion about this question...* It is more simple than that to me anyway. If a Phantom has a `49 Serial Number---It is a `49, no matter when it was sold...*
> It was made in `49 and is a `49. Pretty easy...------------Cowboy
> But, have fun with your discussions...




That will screw you up when trying to pin point a model year. Lets take for example a bike with a late year serial number and it was built with the next years decals, paint color and components. What then?  A 1963 Varsity is completely different than a 64 Varsity but the 64 has a 1963 serial number so what year would that new 64 be? Being dumb to the facts when they are right in your face would be?..................stupid?


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## phantom (Sep 24, 2017)

LOL...please see post #34


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## Cowboy in NC (Sep 24, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> That will screw you up when trying to pin point a model year. Lets take for example a bike with a late year serial number and it was built with the next years decals, paint color and components. What then?  A 1963 Varsity is completely different than a 64 Varsity but the 64 has a 1963 serial number so what year would that new 64 be? Being dumb to the facts when they are right in your face would be?..................stupid?



You want to be right? Okay you`re right. You want to argue? You picked the wrong one. How did we get from Phantoms to Varsities anyway?
You guys 


GTs58 said:


> That will screw you up when trying to pin point a model year. Lets take for example a bike with a late year serial number and it was built with the next years decals, paint color and components. What then?  A 1963 Varsity is completely different than a 64 Varsity but the 64 has a 1963 serial number so what year would that new 64 be? Being dumb to the facts when they are right in your face would be?..................stupid?




You want to be right? Okay, You`re right. You want to argue? You picked the wrong one. How did we get from Phantoms to Varsities anyway?
We`re talking about 1949 Phantoms. Every publication about Bicycles that I`ve ever read said that Phantoms were made between 1949 and 1959.
And unless you were there, they were. We also have serial numbers to back it up... If a guy finds a rusty `36 Shelby- the first thing he wants to know is what year it was made. The general advice here is- check the Serial Number... A rough `55 Phantom-- the same thing and a rough `63 Varsity -the same thing. You Guys that want to argue against Serial Numbers---- just like to argue...
I`m going to bed... A Varsity is a different Coyote--- God Bless,---Cowboy


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## cds2323 (Sep 24, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> That will screw you up when trying to pin point a model year. Lets take for example a bike with a late year serial number and it was built with the next years decals, paint color and components. What then?  A 1963 Varsity is completely different than a 64 Varsity but the 64 has a 1963 serial number so what year would that new 64 be? Being dumb to the facts when they are right in your face would be?..................stupid?




 Cowboy is only expressing an  opinion, which is what you're doing. The supposition that Schwinn cared about model years like the car manufacturers seems to be an opinion.  I haven't seen anything circa 1950 that shows how Schwinn followed model years. What Schwinn did in the sixties with Varsitys' isn't the same thing. Perhaps they did follow model years like the car makers by then. But what were they doing in 1949/50?

I'd like to see any supporting evidence as to how Schwinn used model years to describe/define their bikes at the time the Phantom was introduced. Does anyone have the trade magazines of the time? My last American Bicyclist issue is May 1949 (no mention of the Phantom yet). I'm sure Schwinn would have had an ad for it in 49, even if it wasn't available until Christmas. And there were usually write ups of upcoming bikes from the manufacturers in  the issues as well. Those write ups usually were at the end or the beginning of the year and would describe the upcoming bikes. (i.e. ; For 1950, Schwinn announces the new Phantom)


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## GTs58 (Sep 24, 2017)

Cowboy in NC said:


> You want to be right? Okay you`re right. You want to argue? You picked the wrong one. How did we get from Phantoms to Varsities anyway?
> You guys
> 
> 
> ...




I'm not arguing. The fact that the first produced new models had the previous years serial number is my point. The difference between the 63 and 64 Varsity is easily distinguished and a Phantom from year to year not so much. So what would you think when you see a 1964 model Varsity with a November 63 serial number and the 63 serial numbered 64 looks nothing like a 63 model.  
Another example. The 1962 Corvette 5 speed began with the November 27, 1961 serial numbers. The difference between the 61 and 62 was slight but very   definitive. The 61 had cad plated fender braces and kick stand, the 62 models had chrome fender braces and kickstand. The 61 models had brazed on tube cable guides and the 62 had U shaped lightweight style cable guides that were spot welded on. The seats and lights were also different. The early ballooners had changes over the years but many times there were no changes from one year to the next so it's hard to distinguish what the actual year is and everyone assumes that the serial number date is the build date and the bikes model year. If a new year model B6 had a December 23rd SN from the previous year it would be easy to say that bike was that years model, but that definitely would not be the case. Anyone can believe what they want, but the facts are out there and it just takes a minute to see them.


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## Saving Tempest (Sep 24, 2017)

http://schwinncruisers.com/bikes/phantom/ says 1949-59 and starts with 1950 model

Dave sez: http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle810

http://www.schwinnbikeforum.com/index.php?topic=14837.30 features many fellow CABErs and says built for 1950 model year. One member these says, Red , Green and Black were all built in 1949...that's being questioned.


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## GTs58 (Sep 24, 2017)

phantom said:


> It's a good topic.....This was discussed in some detail on another forum. Harvie had/has a # FO75##3 Phantom build date 5-4-49... To me that would be a 49 I don't care when it was sold.  This link also mentions a 49 twice but I suppose it could be false. http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/schwinnbike.htm  Also the Anniversary Phantoms were advertised as reproductions of the 49 Phantoms, that is why their serial numbers run G000001 through G0005000   1949 had a number run from G000100 to G003166. I would like to believe it's more than a coincidence.




The G serial numbers were 1950 numbers. There were some in 49 but those were from 12/9 thru 12/21 and there is no way in heaven that they were even built in 1949.


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## GTs58 (Sep 24, 2017)

Saving Tempest said:


> http://schwinncruisers.com/bikes/phantom/ says 1949-59 and starts with 1950 model
> 
> Dave sez: http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle810
> 
> http://www.schwinnbikeforum.com/index.php?topic=14837.30 features many fellow CABErs and says built for 1950 model year. One member these says, Red , Green and Black were all built in 1949...that's being questioned.




Look at the schwinncruisers site real close. If you know your Schwinns, you'll know they didn't produce middleweights in 1953. What Pat says in his site is..........well, you'll have to take what he says with a grain of salt and bottle of tequila.


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## WES PINCHOT (Sep 25, 2017)

WHY NOT ASK A COLLECTOR THAT HAS AN ORIGINAL '49 PHANTOM TO CHECK OUT
THE SERIAL NUMBER TO SEE WHEN THE FRAME WAS STAMPED IN '48?


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## Oilit (Sep 26, 2017)

For what it's worth, I have to side with @GTs58 on the model years. I have a 1954 Jaguar with a serial number dating to October 1953, but the date on the Sturmey hub is "54   1". If the hub was built January 1954, the bike could not have been assembled in 1953, even if the frame was ready.


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## Saving Tempest (Sep 26, 2017)

Or ask the Schwinn family?


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## COB (Sep 26, 2017)

If it helps, I have a Black Phantom carcass with serial # F342699, which I believe dates it November 18, 1949. (Or does that just add to the confusion?) I tried to take a picture of the serial number but it did not come out too well in the low-light conditions.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 26, 2017)

I want to see a pic of that May 49 bike mentioned earlier in this post. That would put this baby to bed! V/r Shawn


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## GTs58 (Sep 26, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> I want to see a pic of that May 49 bike mentioned earlier in this post. That would put this baby to bed! V/r Shawn




That wouldn't be enough to nail up the coffin. Only one May Phantom will seal the deal? What if it's a restored piece? I'm sure you know there were many Phantoms built after the fact when everyone was trying to cash in on the craze. There's been lots of November #'s and some Oct. #'s So there should be many with earlier numbers if it was a mid year release. Where are they?  I thought for sure there would have been hundreds of pre September SN Phantoms popping up with everyone saying they have a 1949 Phantom. I'll be keeping an eye out on all the so called "49" phantoms looking for numbers earlier than Oct.


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## phantom (Sep 26, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> I want to see a pic of that May 49 bike mentioned earlier in this post. That would put this baby to bed! V/r Shawn



Sean: I am communicating with a few folks on the Schwinn forum to get pics of the bike and the bottom bracket on the May 49 Phantom sent to me.


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## cyclingday (Sep 26, 2017)

I was just driving home from work, and saw my first 2018 Ford F-150.
Nice looking truck.
Gee!
To see a brand new truck on the road in September of 2017 means that thing was probably on the assembly line in May?
Just a guess, but probably not to far off.
No one will ever call that truck a 2017 model even though it's vin number will clearly state that it was manufactured and sold in 2017.
Now I know bicycle production cannot be compared to the automobile business.
But, the bicycle business was and is a Christmas season driven business.
You know, Black Friday?
Yeah the time of year that your sales numbers shift from red to black.
The Schwinn Phantom was a new model for a new decade. The 1950s.
The built the bikes in 1949 so that they would be ready for the end of the year sales crush, so that kids could get the new models for Christmas.
You can call them 1949 models, because that's what the serial number says, but all of the advertising literature says they are 1950 models just like that brand new Ford truck I saw today.


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## Freqman1 (Sep 27, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> That wouldn't be enough to nail up the coffin. Only one May Phantom will seal the deal? What if it's a restored piece? I'm sure you know there were many Phantoms built after the fact when everyone was trying to cash in on the craze. There's been lots of November #'s and some Oct. #'s So there should be many with earlier numbers if it was a mid year release. Where are they?  I thought for sure there would have been hundreds of pre September SN Phantoms popping up with everyone saying they have a 1949 Phantom. I'll be keeping an eye out on all the so called "49" phantoms looking for numbers earlier than Oct.



Yes, one original May '49 Phantom would seal the deal for me. V/r Shawn


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## phantom (Sep 27, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> That wouldn't be enough to nail up the coffin. Only one May Phantom will seal the deal? What if it's a restored piece? I'm sure you know there were many Phantoms built after the fact when everyone was trying to cash in on the craze. There's been lots of November #'s and some Oct. #'s So there should be many with earlier numbers if it was a mid year release. Where are they?  I thought for sure there would have been hundreds of pre September SN Phantoms popping up with everyone saying they have a 1949 Phantom. I'll be keeping an eye out on all the so called "49" phantoms looking for numbers earlier than Oct.



Well, then you would have to go back to post #34 LOL, you haven't met the burden of proof that my claim is not valid.


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## GTs58 (Sep 27, 2017)

phantom said:


> Well, then you would have to go back to post #34 LOL, you haven't met the burden of proof that my claim is not valid.




And nobody can answer my question. And hearsay is disallowed.

*Was There Really A 1949 Model Phantom?


*


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## GTs58 (Sep 27, 2017)

The new 1954 Jaguar also had an early release in late 1953. It too was available right before Christmas 1953 but the dealers had to put in their orders pronto.
The Jag ad sent to dealers. Notice the side note along with the print in the bottom right box. As for the so called 49 Phantom, it was probably introduced in the same manor and just early enough for Christmas sales.


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## removed (Dec 2, 2017)

the 49's came with pinch pan mesinger saddle not a phantom style


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## ballooney (Dec 2, 2017)

I have what I call a '49 Phantom...serial: F286822  (10/22/49).


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## removed (Dec 2, 2017)

balloon tire jags 53 and 54


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## barneyguey (Dec 2, 2017)

The bikes are always built the year before so they can have them for sale the following year.


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## removed (Dec 2, 2017)

NOT SURE WHERE YOU GET YOUR HISTORY, BUT THE WORKED AS MUCH OVERTIME AS POSSIBLE IN OCT - DEC FOR XMAS SALES.  READ UP ON THE FACTORYS THAT BUILT THESE... ITS NO WHERE NEAR A YEAR BEFORE... ITS LIKE CARS WITH NEW MODEL YEARS...AND BIKES MADE IN TRANSITION MAY HAVE HAD BOTH YEARS PARTS UNTIL GONE


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## GTs58 (Dec 2, 2017)

CRIPPLE said:


> the 49's came with pinch pan mesinger saddle not a phantom style




In many cases the first run of new a model had parts that were not used throughout the model year production and this is understandable. If there was an actual 1949 model year Phantom the serial number with a stamping date should have at least May/July dated serial number. The new year Schwinn models started with bikes wearing a serial number that was dated in the last quarter. A bike with an October dated serial number very well could have been on a bike with an early release before Christmas but that serial number does not constitute the idea that it's that years model.

In almost all cases the new year Schwinn models started with bikes wearing a November serial number.


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## phantom (Dec 2, 2017)

ballooney said:


> I have what I call a '49 Phantom...serial: F286822  (10/22/49).



Would love to see picture of it.


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## removed (Dec 2, 2017)

SERIAL NUMBERS HAVE BEEN A COUPLE YEARS OFF ACTUALLY


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## GTs58 (Dec 2, 2017)

↑
I have what I call a '49 Phantom...serial: F286822 (10/22/49).



phantom said:


> Would love to see picture of it.




Last quarter serial number. Not considered a 49 model by any stretch.


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## removed (Dec 2, 2017)

BUT THEY DID MAKE 1949 PHANTOMS, AND THE 1ST YEAR HAS THE PINCH PAN MESINGER, IN 50 THE LEATHER WAS GLUED ON. IT DIDN'T HOLD AND CAME LOOSE...AFTER THAT THEY HAD RIVETS ON THE SIDES TO HOLD IT FOR THE GLUE


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## ballooney (Dec 2, 2017)

phantom said:


> Would love to see picture of it.




Labeless guard; small Schwinn script on tank; rivetless seat...none of these features carried over to 1950. 













Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## removed (Dec 2, 2017)

IM NOT SURE ABOUT THE BIKE BUT ORIGINALLY THAT SEAT WAS MADE IN 1950


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## GTs58 (Dec 2, 2017)

CRIPPLE said:


> BUT THEY DID MAKE 1949 PHANTOMS, AND THE 1ST YEAR HAS THE PINCH PAN MESINGER, IN 50 THE LEATHER WAS GLUED ON. IT DIDN'T HOLD AND CAME LOOSE...AFTER THAT THEY HAD RIVETS ON THE SIDES TO HOLD IT FOR THE GLUE




The new 1950 Phantom did have some serial numbers that were dated the previous year. Just like the new model year cars that begin production starting in June and July of the previous year. Schwinn's new model year started with the production of bikes wearing serial numbers that were stamped in the last quarter. Note that a serial number date has nothing to do with an actual build date or even the date the frame was built. The date associated with the SN was the date that number was stamped on the bikes component, whether it was the BB shell, rear dropout or head tube.

Lets see some real untouched Phantoms with a mid year 49 serial number!


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## removed (Dec 2, 2017)

LOOK AROUND THEY EXIST


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## phantom (Dec 2, 2017)

Has me now thinking about 58's and 59's. Obviously there are big changes between the two years but were there any crossover serial numbers.... Could you have a 59 with a September 58  frame date and a 58 with a  September 58 frame date.......I mean, did one day in late 58 they just say OK guys start using these chain rings, pedals and seats from this serial number forward and it will be our 59?  What happened to all the parts from 58's and prior years?


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## GTs58 (Dec 2, 2017)

phantom said:


> Has me now thinking about 58's and 59's. Obviously there are big changes between the two years but were there any crossover serial numbers.... Could you have a 59 with a September 58  frame date and a 58 with a  September 58 frame date.......I mean, did one day in late 58 they just say OK guys start using these chain rings, pedals and seats from this serial number forward and it will be our 59?  What happened to all the parts from 58's and prior years?





There was a cut off point if you go by serial numbers and the dates of the SN stamping. All the November 61 serial numbers L151XXX were on the next year's 1962 Corvette 5 speeds. The Corvette 3 speeds had a model year transition around the 15th of November 1961. There was about a month between the last built 61 Corvette 5 speeds and the production of the new 1962 models in Nov. 61. Also note there was about a month between the first 62 production in Nov. 61 to the next production run starting with serial #'s on Jan. 18, 1962.

*lth63064 __________K152476__10/26/1961__Black____Small plate____Was 4 sale 1/2014. Warren, MI. 
MIKE-101ST________K152480__10/26/1961__Black____Small plate____Has owned for the last 10 + years 
mike _______________K152756__10/26/1961__R. Green__Large plate____Has been restored back to a Corvette 5 
Muncie-mike_________L151445__11/27/1961__Black____Small__________Thrift shop find. Original
schwinn-bike-bobb __L151458__11/27/1961__R Green__Small plate_____Late 61 frame built for 62 Cleaned up & back to OEM 
GTs58 ____________L151532__11/27/1961__R. Red ___Large plate_____Fresh from a shed in Stockton. 1962 model 
krankrate__________L151549__11/27/1961__Black____Small plate_____Another late 1961 frame built up as a 1962 model. 
GTs58 ____________L151554__11/27/1961__R. Blue___Small plate_____Original paint. Small slotted alloy pie plate 
hotvw_____________L151628__11/27/1961__R. Blue___Unknown______Project bike. Ebay seller: 1990fordbronco Location Hammond IN. 
Oilit_______________L151683__11/27/1961__R. Green__Small solid_____Unmolested original only missing light and crash rail
Uncle Krustys______L152015__11/27/1961__Black____Unknown______Frameset with guard In Santa Rosa 
Pedalin Past_______L152117__11/27/1961__Black____Unknown______ Purchased by Shadow27 and then resold 
popmachines______L152142__11/27/1961__R. Green__Small solid_____Originated in Avondale AZ. 
mcwildz06_________L152228__11/27/1961__Black_____Small plate____Late 61 frame but built in 1962 as a 1962 model.
DonFelipe_________L152274__11/27/1961__R. Red___Small solid_____Started out in Pomona and still in CA 
26thstWoodsman __L152412__11/27/1961__Black____Large plate_____Owned for the last 10 years. 
cat17106u9s_______L152448__11/27/1961__R.Red____Large plate_____Set up W/Crusier 5 wheelsets Custom modified. 
 Alex L _____________A221536__01/18/1962__Black____Small solid_____Sold by Shadow27 4-2014 
dave the wave____A223160__01/19/1962__R. Blue____Large_________ Sold a Green one to Shadow27
R69Sman _________A228147__01/24/1962__Black____Unknown_______A near complete project worthy of a restoration 
npiotrowski1234___A228215__01/24/1962__Black____Small N,O______For sale in Arlington Heights IL. eBay 
jrc*


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## phantom (Dec 2, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> There was a cut off point if you go by serial numbers and the dates of the SN stamping. All the November 61 serial numbers L151XXX were on the next year's 1962 Corvette 5 speeds. The Corvette 3 speeds had a model year transition around the 15th of November 1961. There was about a month between the last built 61 Corvette 5 speeds and the production of the new 1962 models in Nov. 61. Also note there was about a month between the first 62 production in Nov. 61 to the next production run starting with serial #'s on Jan. 18, 1962.
> 
> *lth63064 __________K152476__10/26/1961__Black____Small plate____Was 4 sale 1/2014. Warren, MI.
> MIKE-101ST________K152480__10/26/1961__Black____Small plate____Has owned for the last 10 + years
> ...



 Interesting I guess but it doesn't answer my questions re: 58/59 Phantoms


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## GTs58 (Dec 2, 2017)

phantom said:


> Interesting I guess but it doesn't answer my questions re: 58/59 Phantoms




So you're taking about the parts on a new year model. I don't study the Phantoms but I'm sure Schwinn could have used a 58 seat on the new 59 models. They did this with the change over on many bikes when they went from the three rivet 59-61 Mesinger to the two rivet 62 Mesinger, and then again with the no rivet 63 Mesinger. Did you know that some 1958 model Jaguars and Corvettes had the new 1959 two stage Mayweg front carriers? Schwinn's chain rings were made in house so I see no crossover issue with that part and same with the chain guard decals.

Christmas ad for the 58 Jaguar.


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## phantom (Dec 3, 2017)

59 Phantoms had a completely different seat, bow pedals and clover chain ring, as well as the tank and chain guard markings.....I don't know much about 60's MW's and not looking to learn. Thanks


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## removed (Dec 3, 2017)

year model change, but like ed schwinn said... we weren't making collectors items, we were making bicycles.  on the line if you ran out of a style chainguards you grabbed a box of another kind and the line didn't stop.  nice man, just not really business minded (to say the least


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## GTs58 (Dec 3, 2017)

phantom said:


> Has me now thinking about 58's and 59's. Obviously there are big changes between the two years but were there any crossover serial numbers.... Could you have a 59 with a September 58  frame date and a 58 with a  September 58 frame date.......*I mean, did one day in late 58 they just say OK guys start using these chain rings, pedals and seats from this serial number forward and it will be our 59?*  What happened to all the parts from 58's and prior years?




Yes.


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## removed (Dec 3, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> Yes.



used up at the first of the year like i just described


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## bikepaulie (Dec 4, 2017)

this is my July 1950 Black Phantom. I know it doesn’t help the discussion but I like it alot and wanted to show it off.


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## removed (Dec 4, 2017)

bikepaulie said:


> this is my July 1950 Black Phantom. I know it doesn’t help the discussion but I like it alot and wanted to show it off.
> 
> View attachment 719498



thats not a 1950 saddle


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## GTs58 (Dec 4, 2017)

CRIPPLE said:


> thats not a 1950 saddle




Ed Schwinn said, "Keep the line moving and use those saddles!"


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## bikepaulie (Dec 5, 2017)

GTs58 said:


> Ed Schwinn said, "Keep the line moving and use those saddles!"





CRIPPLE said:


> thats not a 1950 saddle



My butt doesn’t notice.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 5, 2017)

bikepaulie said:


> this is my July 1950 Black Phantom. I know it doesn’t help the discussion but I like it alot and wanted to show it off.
> 
> View attachment 719498




Here ya go... https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/show-us-your-phantoms.13149/page-6


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## Freqman1 (Dec 5, 2017)

1950 ad...


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## cyclingday (Dec 5, 2017)

The question should be, was there a 1949 catalog from Arnold Schwinn & Co. that showed the availability of a Phantom series bike?


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## removed (Dec 5, 2017)

that seat was 51 and after only


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## Freqman1 (Dec 5, 2017)

CRIPPLE said:


> that seat was 51 and after only




The ad is from the Spring 1950 (March 1st) Chicago Cycle Supply Company catalog. Where is your proof otherwise?


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## atencioee (Dec 23, 2018)

GTs58 said:


> Here is a May 23, and April 18,1949 Schwinn list for Salt Lake Hardware Co and absolutely no mention of a Phantom. Guess there were no actual 1949 Phantoms, just 1950 models with late 49 serial numbers. This is the only 1949 list I can find.
> 
> View attachment 681286
> View attachment 681287
> ...



Hey bro! What I find interesting about this, is that it shows that the autocycle bikes had Cord Balloon tires! Just tge other day we were discussinghow we couldn't find any literature earlier than the 1952 catalogs mentioning the Schwinn Cord tires. I know that these lists say, "Cord Balloon", but the Cord Balloon and Schwinn Cord Balloon tires would be the same, right?


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## Freqman1 (Dec 23, 2018)

atencioee said:


> Hey bro! What I find interesting about this, is that it shows that the autocycle bikes had Cord Balloon tires! Just tge other day we were discussinghow we couldn't find any literature earlier than the 1952 catalogs mentioning the Schwinn Cord tires. I know that these lists say, "Cord Balloon", but the Cord Balloon and Schwinn Cord Balloon tires would be the same, right?





Not necessarily. V/r Shawn


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## atencioee (Dec 23, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> Not necessarily. V/r Shawn




Is there any literature or any proof the Schwinn Cord Tires were around before 52? If the Cord Balloon mentioned on that list is not necessarily a Schwinn Cord, I wonder what other tire would it be?


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## Sevenhills1952 (Dec 23, 2018)

GTs58 said:


> I think you are correct. No facts yet proving there were Phantoms produced for the 1949 model year.
> 
> It seems that everyone believes there were actually1949 model Phantoms due to the fact they had a late 4th quarter 1949 serial number. Schwinn's model year changeover usually started with bikes wearing November and later serial numbers, and in some cases slightly earlier than November. The 1950 Phantom apparently had an early release or debut in late 49 for Christmas sales and technically they were not a 1949 model. The earliest real Phantom serial number I've personally come across had a very late October stamping. If anyone has some info that would verify a legitimate 1949 model Phantom please share it.
> 
> ...



A good friend of mine (rip) had a Schwinn Phantom that he received from his parents for Christmas 1949. I saw the bike, a black Phantom.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## spoker (Dec 24, 2018)

i dissagree with the frame number being stamped ahead of time,the number is used for a numder of reasons,one being able to track quality vcontrol,its a coman procedeure in mfr,cars have a frame serial number for the year f the car,ge it eatly or mid year change


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## GTs58 (Dec 24, 2018)

spoker said:


> i dissagree with the frame number being stamped ahead of time,the number is used for a numder of reasons,one being able to track quality vcontrol,its a coman procedeure in mfr,cars have a frame serial number for the year f the car,ge it eatly or mid year change




*Stamping the bikes component with a serial number prior to the frame build was common practice, and it started years before WWII.*


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## spoker (Dec 24, 2018)

oh ok


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## spoker (Dec 24, 2018)

GTs58 said:


> Stamping the bikes component with a serial number prior to the frame build was common practice, and it started years before WWII.
> 
> View attachment 924044
> 
> View attachment 924049



now that some great welding


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## bricycle (Dec 24, 2018)

If bike manufacturers were anything like the Outboard Motor manufacturers, they did whatever they wanted whenever they wanted especially around WW2.


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## spoker (Dec 24, 2018)

if it has a 49 serial number,its a 49 to me,i guess im not gonna refi my house to buy a bike anyway


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## schwinnlax (Dec 24, 2018)

Late to the discussion here, and have waded through all the comments.  I understand the "model year" concept and agree on that.  However, some models in some years didn't change from one year to the next.  So, for me, what would make a '49 Phantom uniquely a '49 (other than the serial number).  It's entirely possible if Schwinn were rushing '49 model year Phantoms out the door to dealers, that they had November or December serial numbers.  So the question is, what would make a '49 unique as compared to a '50 Phantom?  I have no idea, as I don't follow Phantoms.  It is just the question that came to my mind.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 24, 2018)

From my research it seems the Phantom was released in Sep of 1949. It is likely these bikes had Aug or earlier serial numbers. I think Schwinn was really just previewing things to come. While I wouldn’t call these ‘49 models I don’t really consider the early bikes ‘50 models either. As for the differences some of the early bikes, to include bonafide ‘50 models had Mesinger B1 seats. The early Phantom style seat didn’t have rivets and some of the early bikes had a teardrop Wald reflector. V/r Shawn


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## atencioee (Dec 25, 2018)

I love the interesting info you guys bring to the table...what a great hobby! My Dad's phantom has a serial # that dates the bike to Oct. 5, 1949.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 25, 2018)

atencioee said:


> I love the interesting info you guys bring to the table...what a great hobby! My Dad's phantom has a serial # that dates the bike to Oct. 5, 1949.




Is it original or restored? I don't hold much stock in the serial of any restored bike unless you have documentation that it was a real Phantom to start with. V/r Shawn


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## atencioee (Dec 25, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> Is it original or restored? I don't hold much stock in the serial of any restored bike unless you have documentation that it was a real Phantom to start with. V/r Shawn



Its been restored


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## spoker (Dec 25, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> From my research it seems the Phantom was released in Sep of 1949. It is likely these bikes had Aug or earlier serial numbers. I think Schwinn was really just previewing things to come. While I wouldn’t call these ‘49 models I don’t really consider the early bikes ‘50 models either. As for the differences some of the early bikes, to include bonafide ‘50 models had Mesinger B1 seats. The early Phantom style seat didn’t have rivets and some of the early bikes had a teardrop Wald reflector. V/r Shawn



what research?


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## Freqman1 (Dec 25, 2018)

spoker said:


> what research?



The many hours of research I conducted going through magazines, catalogs, newpapers, and other literature


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## spoker (Dec 25, 2018)

it would be kool to hear from someone who was a schwinn dealer in 48 or 49 to see what was really offerd


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## StoneWoods (Jan 2, 2019)

Cowboy in NC said:


> Hey Guys,
> Lots of discussion about this question... It is more simple than that to me anyway. If a Phantom has a `49 Serial Number---It is a `49, no matter when it was sold...
> It was made in `49 and is a `49. Pretty easy...------------Cowboy
> But, have fun with your discussions...



By that logic, my 79 c10 is a 78.


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## unregistered (Mar 1, 2020)

Just picked up a Black Phantom with a ‘49 SN frame. Decal on guard but rattle canned over. Some repop parts on it but was surprised to see that early result! 
SN F337356


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## GTs58 (Mar 1, 2020)

Thanks for posting your new Phantom! The Phantom was an all new model for 1950 and it had an early debute in very late 1949. Those that were available for Christmas sales usually had an early October dated serial number. All the other ongoing models for the next year normally started out with November serial numbers so your Phantom would fit right in with all those bikes that were being built for the next model year. It's been said by an old and still current Schwinn Dealer (Charlie H.) that the factory shut down production in December for retooling etc.. I'm not so sure about that but I think the production of parts definitely continued on till the holidays just by looking at the serial number stamping dates.


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