# A simple Question?



## Joaquin Suave (Nov 3, 2020)

So in my manufacturing facilities I have all the abilities in house to repilicate/ "rip-off" PERFECT Elgin Bluebirds and or Dayton Huffman Superstreamliners... Why shoulden't I???


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## The Carolina Rambler (Nov 3, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> So in my manufacturing facilities I have all the abilities in house to repilicate/ "rip-off" PERFECT Elgin Bluebirds and or Dayton Huffman Superstreamliners... Why shoulden't I???



I think there would be contraversy if a person did that, but not all bad.  It would be similar to those reproduction Borden Spacelanders, or Black Phantoms.  Although it would perhaps make it easier for a person to build or restore a Bluebird because now they would have new parts again for the first time in 80 years, some would not like it because it would lower, at least a little bit, the value of their original machines, like what happened with the black phantoms.  You would want to have some easily discernable characteristics to your machines that would make it impossible to confuse them with originals, and prevent people who are unscrupulous from passing off reproduction machines for real ones.  Its like with the black Phantom, often times, at least here in North Carolina, you can buy a decent real one for the same or less money than for a reproduction, and if you're like me, I would go for an original in that case.  That said, it would be fun to have a blue bird to ride around on without fear of scuffing it up, and without breaking the bank.  There are pros and cons, as with anything.


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## highship (Nov 3, 2020)

You should, just don't pretend they are something they are not. Put me on the list, i would love to have the Dayton for a daily cruiser.


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## phantom (Nov 3, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> So in my manufacturing facilities I have all the abilities in house to repilicate/ "rip-off" PERFECT Elgin Bluebirds and or Dayton Huffman Superstreamliners... Why shoulden't I???



If you can do this would your facility mass produce or do by order only? I assume you could do any bike if you could do the ones you mention. What do you think a Bluebird would have to retail for if you were to do it ?  Curious to see other responses.


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## fordmike65 (Nov 3, 2020)




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## Superman1984 (Nov 3, 2020)

@Joaquin Suave I say do at least 3 of each, see what it costs and what you'd have to have price wise per frame & per part if you're not producing a whole complete bicycle. I'd love to own even a "rip off" of both but if they're like the Schwinns & $500+ then they need to be quality built & look legit like originals but modern built


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## GTs58 (Nov 3, 2020)

Superman1984 said:


> @Joaquin Suave I say do at least 3 of each, see what it costs and what you'd have to have price wise per frame & per part if you're not producing a whole complete bicycle. I'd love to own even a "rip off" of both but if they're like the Schwinns & $500+ then they need to be quality built & look legit like originals but modern built




Doing only three each would result in a cost 10 X more at least. Just to have the early Huret solid aluminum spoke protector repopped, 100 would have to be made and then sold for 50 bucks each just to break even.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 3, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> So in my manufacturing facilities I have all the abilities in house to repilicate/ "rip-off" PERFECT Elgin Bluebirds and or Dayton Huffman Superstreamliners... Why shoulden't I???



The devil is in the details. I've yet to see a perfect door latch knob for a BB. The switches, horn, glass headlight lens, would cost sgnificant money to produce and I think it would cost at least 3x the cost of an original to produce. As far as diminishing the value of an original I don't see that. I don't think the repo Phantoms really hurt the value of an original. As long as I'm willing to whip out the big boy wallet finding a BB really isn't a problem. The Super Streamline (not a Firestone) is a different story but frames, seats, stems, and guards have all been reproduced. Personally I see a money losing proposition. V/r Shawn


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## bikejunk (Nov 4, 2020)

do this to make money re produce tomahawk stems lets see how they come out .


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## Schwinnbikedude (Nov 11, 2020)

Do it!! I was thinking of doing the same thing about a month or so ago but I don't have the equipment necessary or time. if you do it post picture of the repop blue bird and if you decide to sell them I would definitely buy one to ride all the time and i bet others would to. Best of luck hope you decide to build them! 
(If you ever do build them and sell them pm me.) Again best of luck!


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## CURTIS L LINDGREN (Nov 11, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> Why shoulden't I???



I feel the same as @Freqman1 .   It's a daunting task to build bikes like these .  The variety of materials and machinery and skills to operate and fabricate , as well as paint and  chrome - the list goes on and on . To be a respectable build of one ( or more ) of these Classics - - - - -I just don't think it can be a money maker.   Unless you have long term plans and DEEP Pockets . AND here's the kicker -  - - -     It's got to be a top quality product at an affordable price .   Now , if your doin' it for pride that's a different story .  in that case - - - -I say Go For It !   you may surprise everybody !!


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## SKPC (Nov 12, 2020)

I say keep it simple.  Just produce a few of these, and you will get your money back and make everyone who "needs" one happy as a clam.
(Edit: with a simple, easy-to-find makers mark. I would still buy one.)




Still looking/waiting/hoping forever while remaining delusional one will show up in my lifetime


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## Freqman1 (Nov 12, 2020)

I think there are a bunch of parts you could make and turn a profit on. The key though is to do rare parts used across a range of years and models such as the ‘mouse’ light shown. Reproducing a rare part for a rare bike significantly shrinks your market. There may be a few exceptions but otherwise try to appeal to as many collectors as possible. V/r Shawn


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## SirMike1983 (Nov 12, 2020)

One thing you can do is build-in a relatively inconspicuous aspect that sets it apart from the original (a small mark, stamping, etc. - something that will not diminish the look but which will help discourage it from being passed off as a mint original). Reproductions sometimes have these "telltales" so they cannot be as easily used to facilitate fraud. You may still get people trying to pass them off, but at least someone with a little information will know that if it has a certain aspect or mark, it's not original.


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## cyclingday (Nov 12, 2020)

Ultra rare bike shows up in brand new condition.

FAKE BIKE!

Disclaimer;
I would’ve inserted a photo of our ex president for added humor, but that is strictly forbidden in this site.
Lol!


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## birdzgarage (Nov 12, 2020)

With all the fake cook bros out there and various other reproduction bmx frames and parts,it does not affect the value or rarity of original stuff as I'm sure you know.i say do it.


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## Superman1984 (Nov 12, 2020)

Hell I would like a Monark train light housing & the front rocket. I would settle for fiberglass or even plastic as long as it would be budget friendly & fair quality not requiring hours of work before paint. They're going high on evilbay for some beat pieces & the nice 1s are getting into complete girls bike range


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## phantom (Nov 12, 2020)

CURTIS L LINDGREN said:


> I feel the same as @Freqman1 .   It's a daunting task to build bikes like these .  The variety of materials and machinery and skills to operate and fabricate , as well as paint and  chrome - the list goes on and on . To be a respectable build of one ( or more ) of these Classics - - - - -I just don't think it can be a money maker.   Unless you have long term plans and DEEP Pockets . AND here's the kicker -  - - -    It's got to be a top quality product at an affordable price .  Now , if your doin' it for pride that's a different story . in that case - - - -I say Go For It ! you may surprise everybody !!



I don't disagree with you, however, look at the sellout numbers of the Wal Mart Phantoms for a Grand or more. Not everyone is interested in quality or a good value.


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## Superman1984 (Nov 12, 2020)

phantom said:


> I don't disagree with you, however, look at the sellout numbers of the Wal Mart Phantoms for a Grand or more. Not everyone is interested in quality or a good value.



Y'all drive the markets though. Look at the prices here from OG bare frames, parts, and complete bikes. Now look at walmart's $500 Phantoms for $600 or so out the door. Now look at the prior repop prices on here for stuff like the Columbia bikes. Modern day stuff may be built in China, not as great quality but if you buy 1 of these & then resell it for $1,000 you're not just stuffing your pockets but feeding the monster. You can't really knock China's quality if you profit off it. Those type of people are Hypocrites. If I liked Schwinns & just had $500+ to throw on a bike I would buy 1 jus' to ride Especially if I can't buy a ready to ride bike no where near as shiny


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## Rollfast4T1 (Nov 12, 2020)

Heads up; you will be working for free. After  all the costs associated with finishing and shipping alone you are break even at best. This is from my experience- I used to braze on rear bosses to cruiser frames for klunker downhill, commuters, and upgrades... Zero dollars made. Then I made a simple propane stove accessory.....sold like hot cakes! Less time, HUGE customer base, everyone eats.  I know no one looking for rare repop complete bikes. Look no further than resale on 1986 Columbia 5 Stars...between 35-50% of 1986 price.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 12, 2020)

The Columbia Five Star is not a rare bike and not even in the league of a Bluebird or Super Streamline. Like I said before not only will he be working for free but I could see every bit of a $30k loss per bike even if he charged $15k a copy on a Bluebird. Just do some key parts if you even want to make a little money. Jus my 2c V/r Shawn


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 12, 2020)

I have a confession...

I "baited" you guys!

There is NO WAY IN HELL that I would ever COUNTERFEIT classic old bicycles or even their parts!!! Anyone with fabricating/ machining skills that does in my openion is worse than a doushe bag! But I think I understand why some people "replicate" some old lights, chain guards, racks, & .etc... just because some TRUE collectors have exhausted all resources to find that last "thing" to finish of their Classic Build... That is if!!! "IF" they clearly acknowledge that the unique parts they are using are " repops"!
First off for the last 50 years... FIRST AND FOREMOST I've been a bicycle collector! AND for the last 40 years I have owned a bicycle company that had made complete bicycles, frames, forks, stems, handlebars, seat posts, seat post clamps, hubs, quick release squires, cranks, chainrings, pedals and the NASA astronaut "Hyper Gravity" Trainer. Heck at our "heyday" I had 1600 dealers in the US and distributed to 49 countries around the world!

Enough about that! Why are you staunch collectors willing to except BLATANT FORGERIES of my product and the people that BOAST ABOUT THEM on CABE???

*You should be ashamed of yourself!*


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## Superman1984 (Nov 12, 2020)

I can't afford none of it but if somebody was to duplicate a nice part & I could afford it I wouldn't be ashamed to dress anything I'd ride in repop pieces. Repop pieces allow some OG pieces to go to beauty queens & collectors. Big difference in that aspect. Anybody who claims repop parts as OG are douche sacks 100%. Depends on how you want to look at things


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Nov 12, 2020)

I just read the whole thread and I could not find one person who responded that would have given you the idea that they were ok with BLATANT FORGERIES. Many did however acknowledge they were fine with REPRODUCTIONS its part of the industry now. Are all the products you produce of your own design? Or are  they ripoffs of someone else's designs? Just a simple question


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 12, 2020)

No the supposed "ripoffs" you are trying to claim are all legally mine (bought them with the company in 1983)!

These are Forgeries!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Nov 12, 2020)

Are they copies of your bikes? I'm sorry I don't recognize those bikes. If someone is trying to pass  them off as the real thing and they are not ,I'm sure we would all agree that is criminal. I love my moms chicken parm If you offered me a copy of it I would accept so understand no one was seeking you out to make these items you offered.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 12, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> I have a confession...
> 
> I "baited" you guys!
> 
> ...



I was kinda wondering how someone who didn’t know the difference between a Huffman Super Streamline and a Firestone Fleetwood Supreme was gonna pull off an exact copy?


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 12, 2020)

> I was kinda wondering how someone who didn’t know the difference between a Huffman Super Streamline and a Firestone Fleetwood Supreme was gonna pull off an exact copy?



With you "schooling me" ! HEHEHE! I think you are missing my point! I am trying to say, ANY "knock offs" "ripoffs", "repops" , "counterfeits", or "forgeries" are TOTAL BULLpoop!!!! And if all of you are are TRUE collectors! Than you will should not TOLERATE SUCH BEHAVIOR!!!


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## Freqman1 (Nov 12, 2020)

Dipping in the Kool-Aid and don't know the flavor


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 12, 2020)

> Dipping in the Kool-Aid and don't know the flavor



Sorry I don't understand? Does this mean you tolerate repops and knockoffs?


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## CURTIS L LINDGREN (Nov 13, 2020)

I have a Simple Question @Joaquin Suave ,   Can I / We see some of your Sheet Metal Work ?   The body work on these bikes are works of art . Did we see this work you speak of. Please show us your Skilled work . That's all I was hoping for .


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## Freqman1 (Nov 13, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> Sorry I don't understand? Does this mean you tolerate repops and knockoffs?



Your above rant/post is confusing to me. First of all counterfeits and replicas/reproductions are two different things. Secondly you ramble about "staunch" and "TRUE" collectors saying you understand why they would use such parts but then say that anyone who makes these parts "is worse than a doushe (sic) bag". You finish by making baseless claims that we, which I guess means the collecting community at large, are willing to accept blatant forgeries and then "BOAST" about them?

If it was your aim to alienate a large segment of this forum then you are succeeding. There are some exceptionally decent people in the hobby @sm2501 (the owner of his site), @John, and others who have done the hobby a tremendous service by making parts available so we "TRUE collectors" can continue to enjoy our bicyles. I'm thinking they may take exception to being called names. BTW I already have a Dayton Super Streamline and Bluebird so I'm not in the market for either.


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## Superman1984 (Nov 13, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> Your above rant/post is confusing to me. First of all counterfeits and replicas/reproductions are two different things. Secondly you ramble about "staunch" and "TRUE" collectors saying you understand why they would use such parts but then say that anyone who makes these parts "is worse than a doushe (sic) bag". You finish by making baseless claims that we, which I guess means the collecting community at large, are willing to accept blatant forgeries and then "BOAST" about them?
> 
> If it was your aim to alienate a large segment of this forum then you are succeeding. There are some exceptionally decent people in the hobby @sm2501 (the owner of his site), @John, and others who have done the hobby a tremendous service by making parts available so we "TRUE collectors" can continue to enjoy our bicyles. I'm thinking they may take exception to being called names. BTW I already have a Dayton Super Streamline and Bluebird so I'm not in the market for either.
> 
> ...



Amen Brotha Shawn!!! 2 of the many bicycles on here that jus' can't be described Because They're That Damn Nice!!! I don't care if they were painted with markers & clear coated (They're Not) I bet there is NO ONE here that wouldn't gladly take 1 or both of your bikes due to quality and or parts. As far as high horses go I think that name calling is ridiculous over repop parts & remakes that are supposed to remind or show people what great bikes used to be. Customs did this & it still to this day is opinion of what's acceptable; like buttholes everyone has 1 or jus' is 1


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## SirMike1983 (Nov 13, 2020)

I'm not sure what sort of troll thread this would be, but the best way to end would be to have him ask for us to "kindly contact" and send payment to his friend, "Robert" in Massachusetts.


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## cyclingday (Nov 13, 2020)

You can call it a fake bike, or a forgery, but I call it, about $24,000 thousand dollars less than an original, and it’s brand new, and American made.
In fact, the shop where this frame was made, is only a couple of miles from my house, so I can stop by a see them being hand crafted.
That, unto itself, is pretty rare these days.



The Cook Bros patterned their original cruiser, after the frame of a 1935 Schwinn Cycleplane, so who copied who?
You could go as far as saying, that the Cook Bros Cruiser is the forgery.
Frank Schwinn was the man who originally designed that particular frame style.


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

CURTIS L


> I have a Simple Question @Joaquin Suave ,   Can I / We see some of your Sheet Metal Work ?   The body work on these bikes are works of art . Did we see this work you speak of. Please show us your Skilled work . That's all I was hoping for .



You understand that the original bikes sheet metal parts were not hand formed. They were made in dies and I have the large NC machines (5 axis) and the CAD/ CAM software to make the dies.

Fregman1


> First of all counterfeits and replicas/reproductions are two different things. Secondly you ramble about "staunch" and "TRUE" collectors saying you understand why they would use such parts but then say that anyone who makes these parts "is worse than a doushe (sic) bag".



You are right! I should have been more concise. Lets take the "crows beak" chainguard that you asked about on my DH/ Firestone. You graciously explained to me that if was aluminum it was a "repop", if it was sheet metal it was the real thing. That is honorable and what I expect from collectors of your caliber. It is the less scrupulous individuals taking advantage of the naive "fresh" enthusiast that concerns me... Just like I was by Sleepy Hallow 20+ years ago!

Fregman1


> You finish by making baseless claims that we, which I guess means the collecting community at large, are willing to accept blatant forgeries and then "BOAST" about them?



At large... Not so much so. In the Vintage BMX, pretty much all the time! And not just my companies products! Heck, BMXmuseum.com doesn't even tolerate that!

The REAL thing!




The BLATANT Ripoff!






> If it was your aim to alienate a large segment of this forum then you are succeeding.




Alienation & trolling is not my intention, stating my opinion that one of the most important qualities a collector (of anything) shoud have is INTEGRITY is! If you don't agree... Than we'll agree to disagree.

Fregman1: BEAUTIFUL BIKES!!!!!!

SirMike 1983


> I'm not sure what sort of troll thread this would be, but the best way to end would be to have him ask for us to "kindly contact" and send payment to his friend, "Robert" in Massachusetts.



Sorry I don't understand? I've never bought anything from Robert in Massachusetts.


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## BFGforme (Nov 13, 2020)

Wait, that's that chick from eBay holding all the crappy parts overpriced for sale. .


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## redline1968 (Nov 13, 2020)

Do it..ha.. kill the market... why not.. they repoped phantoms stings...certain tanks..ect. it the normal process of america capitize till its dead.. so i say do it..


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## all riders (Nov 13, 2020)

Well, having been involved in the world of museums for most of my life, I'll just point out that all of the greats rely on "repops", facsimiles, recreations, et.c. -often permanently , but also until the real thing shows up. Ive looked at and appreciated so-called fake items in the British Museum, The Smithsonian, The Istanbul Archeology Museums, and the Museo Nacional de Anthropologia. If you would like to tell me that those institutes are not serious collectors, go right ahead. Collections often have a meaning or tell a story greater than their items--the inclusion fill-ins for missing items helps in the collector's mission.  Maybe you are confusing collecting with a more base item-lust. When you walk into any of the great European cathedrals(awe-inspiring to millions of visitors, religious or not) you are looking at details that are almost entirely reconstructed-and, if you're not an idiot, you know this when you enter. Is there no value in this reconstruction that allows you to stand there and experience it as it was? The idea that a "real collector" would not sully themselves with reproduction is completely fatuous.


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## Superman1984 (Nov 13, 2020)

@Joaquin Suave Thanks for informing me that those bikes are supposed to duplicate or were based off '35 Schwinn cycleplane frames. Idk why you did but my thing is this; As Long as you aren't claiming some Chinese clone as a real deal Vintage piece (I don't care if it's Vintage from Day 1 when the US started having crap made there) for actual prices of American made then I see no harm. What pisses me off is people know what they pay for stuff New or Used; example the new Schwinn krate & phantoms. They're price gouging because people are seeing what Actual American Made Vintage bikes are being parted out & or sold complete for. I was interested in a JC Higgins bare frame & tank $350+shipping, didn't need or really want the frame as I have a complete roller, guy wouldn't separate & still when it sold asking price was $280+shipping. No Offence if you realize who you are. It wasn't worth it to me but apparently the buyer could afford it to do a conversion. If that tank was repopped by someone here for say $150 or less shipped they would have had my $. Some repop parts are place holders for the real deal or just not beat to hell affordable pieces for stuff that won't easily leave their collections. I don't like the hobby as much of some of you do so I wouldn't pay $1500 for some of the things you might if I could have a repop for say $500 that I enjoy in homage to the stuff you have. I wouldn't try to pass it off or rip off somebody for $1500 knowing it's a fraudulent clone. Those who do are just Pieces of cowschwitt


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

Cyclingday Sayz


> You can call it a fake bike, or a forgery, but I call it, about $24,000 thousand dollars less than an original, and it’s brand new, and American made.
> In fact, the shop where this frame was made, is only a couple of miles from my house, so I can stop by a see them being hand crafted.
> That, unto itself, is pretty rare these days.



This is a PERFECT example of unscrupulous A-HOLES that make excuses for why it is OK to rip-off a collectable "add your item here"! If you can't afford playing with the "big boy" collectors... Than may I suggest you sell the fake and start collecting GI Joe;s or Barbies!

Sorry Bud! But a fake is a fake... No matter how hard or much you pound your chest!!!


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Nov 13, 2020)

reading this thread has made me more stupider.   I hope it is only temporary.


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## rcole45 (Nov 13, 2020)

One of those four bikes that you are calling FORGERIES and BLATANT RIPOFFS is mine. I bought it directly from the builder in person. At no time did anyone say or imply that it was a Cooks or a 35 Schwinn. Anyone with basic knowledge of a real cooks can tell from 10 feet its not a cooks and from 50 feet its not a Schwinn. You talk about collectors like they are Gods gift to the bicycle community.You are taking this way to serious. Ride your damn bike and enjoy it like your suppose to.  I don't appreciate being called names, in fact it pisses me off.


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## Superman1984 (Nov 13, 2020)

rcole45 said:


> One of those four bikes that you are calling FORGERIES and BLATANT RIPOFFS is mine. I bought it directly from the builder in person. At no time did anyone say or imply that it was a Cooks or a 35 Schwinn. Anyone with basic knowledge of a real cooks can tell from 10 feet its not a cooks and from 50 feet its not a Schwinn. You talk about collectors like they are Gods gift to the bicycle community.You are taking this way to serious. Ride your damn bike and enjoy it like your suppose to.  I don't appreciate being called names, in fact it pisses me off.



I collect junk from different hobbies; own a '94 s10 mini truck, a '72 Ford Maverick someday hot rod, collect hot wheels both the $1-$50 @ times, comics and what ever else I enjoy. As long as I am not passing it off as something it's not for profit it pisses me off to be called names too. Then again I don't think I collect on the same scale or level as some of y'all do so I may not count as usual


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

Rcole45 sayz:


> Anyone with basic knowledge of a real cooks can tell from 10 feet its not a cooks



OK, Please explain why you say that?
Otherwise you are just... another PERFECT example of unscrupulous A-HOLES that make excuses for why it is OK to rip-off a collectable "add your item here"!
You guys Crack me up! Whatever you are smoking MUST be REALLY GOOD!!!


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## piercer_99 (Nov 13, 2020)

wait, you posted a photo of your cooks, to compare with the bike that has your panties in a knot and you really can't see they are very different?

dang dude, that is sad. aside from them both being chromed, and a similar architecture, they are entirely different. a blind man could tell the difference.


chill.


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## rcole45 (Nov 13, 2020)

Your the collector expert telling the rest of us what to do and think AND you can't see the difference between one of these 26 inch cruisers and a real Cooks. Maybe you need to educate your self before trying to tell the rest of what to do. Still don't like the name calling, does it make you feel like a big man. Hell with good eyes a cooks man could tell from 50 feet.


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## SKPC (Nov 13, 2020)

JS.   It doesn't matter.  It really doesn't bud.  Make us all happy and copy the aluminum Delta Mouse tail lights and housings so we can all buy them from you and you could be rich/famous AND then condemn everyone for being stupid and fake! (and much more)
I am just happy you are so squeaky clean and morally responsible.  We need more of that for sure in this world.    
.


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## cyclingday (Nov 13, 2020)

Yeah, and the best part is, that not a day goes by, that someone doesn’t stop us, and ask us where we got these fantastic bikes.
We have only been too happy to oblige them, by giving them Johnny’s contact information.
Once they realize how affordable they are, and of the high quality, and attention to detail, they have been selling like hot cakes.
They’ve been practically flying off the shelf, and Johnny can’t hardly make them fast enough.
Heck, it won’t be long, and the Earth will be littered with these things.
Get your order in now, and you too can be the envy of every bike enthusiast at your favorite places to ride.


Aint she purdy?


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

> wait, you posted a photo of your cooks, to compare with the bike that has your panties in a knot and you really can't see they are very different?



First off not my Cook Bros. Racing bike, second not wearing panties (thus not able to twist or knot), third I really can't see the difference... Honestly! Please explain the difference to me!


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

Rcole 45 sadz


> Your the collector expert telling the rest of us what to do and think AND you can't see the difference between one of these 26 inch cruisers and a real Cooks. Maybe you need to educate your self before trying to tell the rest of what to do.



GOSH! Sorry! I might be REALLY Mistaken! PLEASE SCHOOL ME,I must be really mistaken! I'd love to know the difference!


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

> I am just happy you are so squeaky clean and morally responsible.  We need more of that for sure in this world.



Thanks MAN! You have no clue how "squeaky clean" I am... More to follow!


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

> Yeah, and the best part is, that not a day goes by, that someone doesn’t stop us, and ask us where we got these fantastic bikes.
> We have only be too happy to oblige them by giving them Johnny’s contact information.
> Once they realize how affordable they are and of the high quality, and attention to detail, they have been selling like hot cakes.
> They’ve been practically flying off the shelf, and Johnny can’t hardly make them fast enough.
> ...




That just shows what a douche bag Johnny and his followers are! If johnny were such a "rock star" He would not have to make counterfeits and forgeries of older classic bikes AND produce designs of his own that you guys can buy and be PROUD OF! 
*SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!*


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## rcole45 (Nov 13, 2020)

On a cooks the seat stays join the seat post centered on the top tube. On one of Johns 26 cruisers the seat stays join the seat post below the bottom of the top tube. The wheel base is 1 inch shorter causing the rear wheel to be noticeably closer to the seat post. Seat post is taller on Johns above top tube. There are more but a little harder to see.


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## rcole45 (Nov 13, 2020)

And I still don't like the name calling, maybe we will meet in person some day Jack Witmer.


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

Rcole 45,
Your are so full of SH*T your eyes must be brown!!! Honestly, you guys crack me up! Now you are back pedaling like Russian circus bears! LOL!
What is your next excuse for Johnnies Plagiarism...No No! You don't get it! Cook Bros. Cruisers were made of Chromoly! Johnnies are made of Unobtainiom!


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## bikewhorder (Nov 13, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> Cyclingday Sayz
> 
> This is a PERFECT example of unscrupulous A-HOLES that make excuses for why it is OK to rip-off a collectable "add your item here"! If you can't afford playing with the "big boy" collectors... Than may I suggest you sell the fake and start collecting GI Joe;s or Barbies!
> 
> Sorry Bud! But a fake is a fake... No matter how hard or much you pound your chest!!!



LMAO, you just called out one of the biggest "big boy" collectors (and super humble, non-chest pounding I might add) as some fake collecting cheap skate. Marty, that "fake" bike you posted is sexy AF!  If someone is using their talents to handcraft bikes to meet a demand then I say more power to 'em!  This troll needs to get a clue.


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

bikewhorder wrote:


> This troll needs to get a clue.



Not if he is taking pride in owning a counterfeit of my companies product!


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## birdzgarage (Nov 13, 2020)

Wait,so now you claim to own cook brothers racing? Haha! I love it when people stop taking their meds and loose it on here.you are friggin hilarious.


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## bikewhorder (Nov 13, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> bikewhorder wrote:
> 
> Not if he is taking pride in owning a counterfeit of my companies product!



So you're the founder and owner of Cook Brothers?  That seems implausible. https://www.bicycleretailer.com/nor...tain-bike-pioneer-gary-cook-dies#.X69jG2hKjIU


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

> So you're the founder and owner of Cook Brothers?  That seems implausible.



Owner yes! Founder no. I bought CBR from Gary in 1983 and made more of the "3 bars" than they made before I bought them!
Now here is the next $24,000 question...
Why are all Cook Bros. Racing products so valuable?


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## rustjunkie (Nov 13, 2020)

@Joaquin Suave 

please read the community guidelines before posting further:









						Terms and rules
					

You must agree to these terms and rules before using the site.




					thecabe.com


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## mrg (Nov 13, 2020)

Am I missing something?, I didn't see where they were trying to pass the bikes off as Cook Bros.?


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## ssc (Nov 13, 2020)

JS, your post's sound like the ramblings of a misantropic dipsomaniac. Get some help.

Cheers, Steve


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

> Am I missing something?, I didn't see where they were trying to pass the bikes off as Cook Bros



You did not see the identical forgery of a Cook Bros. Cruiser with Cook Bros. Cruiser decals (however "low buget") on them?
May I refer you to a good Optometrist?


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

> JS, your post's sound like the ramblings of a misantropic dipsomaniac. Get some help.
> 
> Cheers, Steve




misanthropic dipsomaniac is the correct way to spell it!


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## ssc (Nov 13, 2020)

Outstanding! We have now seen one thing you have posted that is accurate. My typing skills are a bit rusty and I misspelled a word. You have demonstrated your character deficiencies quite well via your posts.


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## mrg (Nov 13, 2020)

I guess I haven't seen one close up or a good pic of the fake Cook decals or badging!


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## bikewhorder (Nov 13, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> You did not see the identical forgery of a Cook Bros. Cruiser with Cook Bros. Cruiser decals (however "low buget") on them?
> May I refer you to a good Optometrist?



 Are you referring to this CB decal that looks like a copy of a Schwinn graphic from the 1930s, just like the frame Is a copy of a Schwinn frame?  I'm sorry to hear that somebody is knocking off your knock offs from a company name you bought 37 years ago. Maybe you and Schwinn could file a class action lawsuit?


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## bikewhorder (Nov 13, 2020)

And just to clarify my position, if someone is making knockoffs and trying to pass them off as the real deal then yes, you are right to be angry. But if they are just making tribute bikes and everyone knows what they are buying then I have no objections.  These are ancient designs that are easily reproduced, the real ones are not being diminished by these imitations.


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## rcole45 (Nov 13, 2020)

A counterfeit of your product. You would have to be making frames for that to be possible, and you are not, which opens a big hole for people to fill. There are several other frames that are a LOT closer to a cooks that I would have bought if my intended purpose  was to fake a cooks. Red Menace and we the people are two. If you had been honest with us from the start about owning CBR I could understand where you were coming from. Still don't understand the hate for the JTT cruisers. You are not making frames and these will NEVER cut the price of a cooks frame. Hell a bike just sold for $25k What the hell do you care what other people do when it does not effect you.


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

bikewhorder wrote:



> Are you referring to this CB decal that looks like a copy of a Schwinn graphic from the 1930s, just like the frame Is a copy of a Schwinn frame?



Let me first state: I am not an intellectual properties attorney... However I sure have spent a lot of money on them over the years!

Yes, the Cook Bros. did a frame similar to a early Schwinn Cruiser, no doubt about that! Yes the Cook Bros. made decals that wings what were "kind of" like the older Schwinn decals... but not really. The geometry of the frame was completely different as well as the loop tail rear end, and most importantly the uncrushable rear brake bridge. Anyone with any mechanical or bicycle knowledge would agree that the Schwinn and the Cook Bros. cruiser frames are in no way "deceptively similar". Now over the years I had several people produce 3 bar cruisers that look a lot like Cook Bros. cruisers... Santa Barbara Cruisers, Kona, The guy down in San Fernando Valley, the folks over in Germany and most recently S&M. BUT they all made sure that they "looked like" a Cook Bros. Cruiser BUT also made sure that in no way they were "deceptively similar"! Over the years I've had good relations with several of these people and I wish them nothing but the best of luck!

Now you take Johnny! He has made EVERY effort to ride CBR's coattails! Going WAY beyond "deceptively similar" to make identical uncrushable rear brake bridges, turned head tubes and BB shells, even the CBR decals... 100% forgeries!

People that pull off that kind of underhanded nonsense are 100% "died in the wool" douche bags! It is all about INTEGRITY and he has NONE!!!


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## Freqman1 (Nov 13, 2020)

So in the end this is about using the forum to complain about someone making bikes that look like knock-offs of a knock-off? As Marty explained the Cook Bros frame is a straight rip-off of a Schwinn design. I'm obviously not a MTB guy but it seems to me Cook Bros. deliberately copied the Schwinn frame to capitalize on the popularity of the original klunkers built from prewar, Schwinn straight bar frames. Just sounds like sour grapes to me. If I could I'd get on a bike right now and go for a ride! V/r Shawn


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 13, 2020)

Schawn please read my post above yours.


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## bikewhorder (Nov 13, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> bikewhorder wrote:
> 
> 
> Let me first state: I am not an intellectual properties attorney... However I sure have spent a lot of money on them over the years!
> ...



Well I would wager that 98% of Cabe members couldn't tell a looptail Cook Brothers from a Mongoose if the decals were removed so bringing this to our attention was not the most judicious use of your time.  But thanks for bringing the JTT cruiser to my attention.  I want one now. https://www.truetorch.com


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## mrg (Nov 13, 2020)

Sounds like this is all about expired patents or lack of ( mid 50's all the big names jumper on Schwinn's Cantilever after the 20 yr pat. exp. ) and I'm sure Cook Bros. name is copyright/trademark?, just like when Schwinn used Calif Cruiser & Klunker and we know how that went.


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## bikewhorder (Nov 13, 2020)

These are


rcole45 said:


> A counterfeit of your product. You would have to be making frames for that to be possible, and you are not, which opens a big hole for people to fill. There are several other frames that are a LOT closer to a cooks that I would have bought if my intended purpose  was to fake a cooks. Red Menace and we the people are two. If you had been honest with us from the start about owning CBR I could understand where you were coming from. Still don't understand the hate for the JTT cruisers. You are not making frames and these will NEVER cut the price of a cooks frame. Hell a bike just sold for $25k What the hell do you care what other people do when it does not effect you.



These are sweet!  http://www.genuinebicycleproducts.com/ 








						WeThePeople Avenger bike cruises park & trail on BMX-inspired 27.5" klunker - Bikerumor
					

WeThePeople combine BMX & heritage klunker mountain bike roots into the modern 27.5" steel WTP Avenger cruiser bike to shred dirt, park & trails!




					bikerumor.com


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## Superman1984 (Nov 13, 2020)

Looks like a Schwinn Heavy Duti to me. I almost bought another Schwinn for $25 which woulda made 2 complete of 3. I tore the Sierra down. Mtn bikes kinda got no style here


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Nov 14, 2020)

I'm still waiting for someone to offer a knock off of my moms chicken parm, it has been a long time I miss it


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## Superman1984 (Nov 14, 2020)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to offer a knock off of my moms chicken parm, it has been a long time I miss it






There is your mom's chicken parm knock off. Slider fashion   Tastes the same but doesn't look it. Lol


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## Superman1984 (Nov 14, 2020)

Everybody should go lick their bicycles and make sure they haven't been body snatched during the night


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## Freqman1 (Nov 14, 2020)

I think this thread had the unintended consequence of providing some great advertising for JTT/True Torch cycles.


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## Superman1984 (Nov 14, 2020)

I would be interested in a Monark train light & fender plane if anybody wants to repop them? Aluminum, fiberglass, & even good quality plastic would be Ok as a place holder.


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## cyclingday (Nov 14, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> I think this thread had the unintended consequence of providing some great advertising for JTT/True Torch cycles.
















Handrails, Roll Cages, Righteous Beach Cruisers.
One call, gets it all.


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## cyclingday (Nov 14, 2020)

Old, New, and in Between.





Just another day at the Beach.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Nov 15, 2020)

only a moron would pay $1500.00 for that chrome frame shown above.  I'd rather have a complete used Gary Fisher "Klunker" for less.


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## rcole45 (Nov 15, 2020)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> only a moron would pay $1500.00 for that chrome frame shown above.  I'd rather have a complete used Gary Fisher "Klunker" for less.



The fact that you would rather have a Gary Fisher does not make those of us that bought a JTT cruiser a moron. When did it become acceptable to call people that you don't even know names. Have you had a chance to ride a JTT cruiser? I have ridden a bunch of Gary Fishers bikes and most other brands of klunkers and mountain bikes and road bikes in my 70 years of riding and in MY opinion none of them compare to the JTT for the type of riding that we do and where we ride, I thought this site is suppose to be about bicycle riders from all styles of riding talking about bikes. It is sad to see it sink into a bunch of computer screen tough guys mouthing off.


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## Superman1984 (Nov 15, 2020)

There's ONLY a HANDFUL of bikes on here that I would pay $1500 for if I had that kinda "change" as some of you make it seem to be. I don't care what they're value may or may not be but that is a big money for a lot of Average Joes. I understand some of you have been doing this for years, some have higher paying jobs, buy low sell high & such but most people not in this hobby would consider all of us MORONS for buying bicycles, for salvaging their og paint, restoring them,  & spending $ on them the way we do. None of my business but I would call you a moron in person 'cause there's heaps of schwitt I could spend $1500 vs that JTT bicycle & it's NOT Even Vintage. Not even attractive to me at least.


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## rcole45 (Nov 15, 2020)

$1500 to much for a bike! I know collectors on this site that have collections with very few or no bikes that are that cheap.Their collections are worth more than my house.Are they morons? If you can not see spending that kind of money on the hobby I understand. But to sit behind your computer screen acting like a tough guy calling a person more than twice your age that you don't know  a moron just proves my point, this site is losing its moral compass.


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## schwinnja (Nov 15, 2020)

Those that know, know.
Those that don't probably never will.


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## schwinnja (Nov 15, 2020)




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## SKPC (Nov 15, 2020)

Now wait one minute you crazy Hodads!    How many similar frames were there really? Maybe more than a few used this timeless design?  We may never know.



Last summer I walked into JTT's shop looking for a repair on my stripped Shelby frame. He dropped all he was doing and repair-brazed the chain-stay for me.  Didn't say much so I wondered if he liked my Shelby frame?


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## Superman1984 (Nov 15, 2020)

rcole45 said:


> $1500 to much for a bike! I know collectors on this site that have collections with very few or no bikes that are that cheap.Their collections are worth more than my house.Are they morons? If you can not see spending that kind of money on the hobby I understand. But to sit behind your computer screen acting like a tough guy calling a person more than twice your age that you don't know  a moron just proves my point, this site is losing its moral compass.



There are some bikes that I personally would pay that for if the $ & chance are there; Those JTT bikes? No Way in Hell. It's Not the same vintage or even close. Age has nothing to do with it. If it makes you happy to own it then F'what I think & if me thinking anyone who spent $1500 for a bike like that is a moron offends you then maybe you're ashamed of yourselves. I give no schwitts about those bikes as you can think what you want of me. Just stop with the keyboard bs 'cause some people would throw hands on you just as quick as you might want to throw them. Personally.


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## cyclingday (Nov 15, 2020)

Different strokes for different folks.
You obviously haven’t walked into a quality bike shop lately.
The value of money ain’t what it used to be.
So, my advise to you, is to buy a bike you like and enjoy it, because they ain’t getting any cheaper.
That’s for sure!
$1,500 barely gets you a mediocre bike of any type of quality.
I walked into the local Specialized Super Store, and the first bad ass Gravel Bike I looked at, was $7,000!
It was cool, but, sticker shock to put it mildly.


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## comet (Nov 15, 2020)

I have been reading this because I like pointless drama ( housewife shows, bachelorette nonsense, 600 pound people etc.) but now I want one of those bikes. Fortunately I don't think there are any where I live. They look like a fun ride.


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## Superman1984 (Nov 15, 2020)

comet said:


> I have been reading this because I like pointless drama ( housewife shows, bachelorette nonsense, 600 pound people etc.) but now I want one of those bikes. Fortunately I don't think there are any where I live. They look like a fun ride.



I am sure you could pay & get it shipped. I mean if you want it for $1500 I am sure they could send it to Antarctica if need be


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## Superman1984 (Nov 15, 2020)

I heard shipping to Moronsville is more expensive x3 though .

Joking.


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## cyclingday (Nov 15, 2020)

Here’s a little introspective into what your local bike shop is offering these days.












$1,200 barely gets you the base model, that you wouldn’t even want to get caught dead on!
$10,000 will get you started with the one you really want.
Come on!
You know, you want that bad boy!
Lol!


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## BFGforme (Nov 15, 2020)

At the bike shop my gf backed into the ten g one and let's just say I almost brought it home that day, not that I even wanted it!


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## Superman1984 (Nov 15, 2020)

cyclingday said:


> Here’s a little introspective into what your local bike shop is offering these days.View attachment 1302115
> View attachment 1302116
> View attachment 1302117
> View attachment 1302118
> ...



I'd have way more fun with 10k than you would buddy; especially if you spent it on a bike. None of those bikes honestly entice me to wanna ride 1 though. Neither does the JTT. That was my point to begin with once someone called someone a moron. I agreed.


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## Superman1984 (Nov 15, 2020)

BFGforme said:


> At the bike shop my gf backed into the ten g one and let's just say I almost brought it home that day, not that I even wanted it!



I woulda been single the moment she messed it up & her feelings might not be the only sore thing; bike shop woulda been like wtf? There was a guy in here with her


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## cyclingday (Nov 15, 2020)

Superman1984 said:


> I'd have way more fun with 10k than you would buddy; especially if you spent it on a bike. None of those bikes honestly entice me to wanna ride 1 though. Neither does the JTT. That was my point to begin with once someone called someone a moron. I agreed.



Don’t under estimate how much fun you can have on a $10,000 dollar bike.















I just figured, with a handle like Superman 1984, you must enjoy flying.
Put something exciting between your legs.
Ride a Bicycle.


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## CURTIS L LINDGREN (Nov 15, 2020)

Well , I think the O.P.  was lookin' to get people riled up ( Not sure why )   and it seems he got his wish.    Posting under  false pretense is not cool.  All the Back and forth before he admitted he did the post as a "Prank"  was probably real amusing for him.   Now that we all know what he was getting at..................there does seem to be a little mud slinging goin' on.  The site has not lost any value or credibility .   This just seems to be a post where the passion of the hobby is coming through a little loud.  If the O.P.  wanted to get a discussion going , again he got his wish.  The Cabe has a big variety of Members .  OF ALL Walks and Calibers .  It is a Community of sorts.   Like Rodney King said "  Can't we all just get along ?  "    Seems pretty appropriate here , at least to me.      I'm still bummed ,cause I never did get to see any cool "NEW" Body work .  This is a great Forum ....................Let's keep it great .          DANG ,  I just saw the picture of the guy jumping off the cliff ...................THAT'S  Some SERIOUS CHIT There :eek:


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## Superman1984 (Nov 15, 2020)

CURTIS L LINDGREN said:


> Well , I think the O.P.  was lookin' to get people riled up ( Not sure why )   and it seems he got his wish.    Posting under  false pretense is not cool.  All the Back and forth before he admitted he did the post as a "Prank"  was probably real amusing for him.   Now that we all know what he was getting at..................there does seem to be a little mud slinging goin' on.  The site has not lost any value or credibility .   This just seems to be a post where the passion of the hobby is coming through a little loud.  If the O.P.  wanted to get a discussion going , again he got his wish.  The Cabe has a big variety of Members .  OF ALL Walks and Calibers .  It is a Community of sorts.   Like Rodney King said "  Can't we all just get along ?  "    Seems pretty appropriate here , at least to me.         I'm still bummed ,cause I never did get to see any cool "NEW"  Body work .        This is a great Forum ....................Let's keep it great  .



Fully agreed.


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 16, 2020)

> @CURTIS L LINDGREN  Well , I think the O.P.  was lookin' to get people riled up ( Not sure why )



You could not be further than the truth! My intention was express my opinion about people that condone "knock-offs". I have to say that I'm really surprised of how excepting (even some boastfully proud) of such behavior is here!


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## Cooper S. (Nov 16, 2020)

I would have no problem riding a bike with a repop tank or quality repop accessories, but then again I usually have less budget than you adults and seniors lol


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## BFGforme (Nov 16, 2020)

Superman1984 said:


> I woulda been single the moment she messed it up & her feelings might not be the only sore thing; bike shop woulda been like wtf? There was a guy in here with her



Yup, I'd been like skeeeert.... wasn't me, wasn't even there.... LoL


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## Superman1984 (Nov 16, 2020)

BFGforme said:


> Yup, I'd been like skeeeert.... wasn't me, wasn't even there.... LoL



Bill Clinton " I did not have sexual relations with that woman" & then Road Runner's cloud of dust trail Poof


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## Land O' Aches (Nov 16, 2020)

Joaquin:

With that kind of manufacturing capability why not make something really interesting? Like a 100% made in America balloon tire bicycle for the modern age?

Sure it would look like a Streamliner only better brakes, mounts for iPhones, led lights all that.

Getting every last detail right will require a staggering amount of work, even with digital scanners, Fusion 360 and 3D printing.

Look at what Janus Motorcycles is doing in Indiana...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Superman1984 (Nov 16, 2020)

Land O' Aches said:


> Joaquin:
> 
> With that kind of manufacturing capability why not make something really interesting? Like a 100% made in America balloon tire bicycle for the modern age?
> 
> ...



Especially if you could take styling cues from various vintage bikes ....


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## cyclingday (Nov 17, 2020)

I’ve always thought, that it would be fun, to make a full carbon fiber Elgin Bluebird.
I’d call it the Blackbird, and I’d clean it up a bit.
It would be a state of the art modern bike, with the grace and beauty of an old time classic.
It’d cost a fortune, but I wouldn’t do it to make any money.
Strictly a labor of love.


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## Joaquin Suave (Nov 17, 2020)

> @Land O' Aches :
> Joaquin:
> 
> With that kind of manufacturing capability why not make something really interesting? Like a 100% made in America balloon tire bicycle for the modern age?
> ...



Honestly I have had all ambition to do anything in the bicycle industry pummeled out of me years ago. I now do industrial design and development in industries where you can actually make a living (like aerospace & medical).
Besides that,  do you know how to make a small fortune in the bicycle industry???


*START WITH A LARGE ONE!!!! *


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## BFGforme (Nov 17, 2020)

These days in any industry especially the restaurant business at least in Cali you start with a small fortune and slowly it gets whitled down to nothing in no time and living in your car!! On verge ourselves


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## Superman1984 (Nov 17, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> Honestly I have had all ambition to do anything in the bicycle industry pummeled out of me years ago. I now do industrial design and development in industries where you can actually make a living (like aerospace & medical).
> Besides that,  do you know how to make a small fortune in the bicycle industry???
> 
> 
> *START WITH A LARGE ONE!!!! *



Basically need the "fort knox" fortune & then you still may lose your assets in the end


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## Superman1984 (Nov 17, 2020)

You know I have heard that the government has given refugee immigrants $30,000 to start a legal business. I don't know how reliable that is but I damn sure would like to try my hand in metal fab & wood working. Now days it's hard to be in business for yourself & working for somebody else 'cause they make their fortunes & cut bait a lot of times.


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## phantom (Nov 17, 2020)

Forget now who it was. About two years ago a guy that owned a bike shop in Canton, GA came to my house to pick up a bike. He asked me if I knew how to make a million dollars in the bike business? He then said invest two million.


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## Land O' Aches (Nov 17, 2020)

I remember how exciting manufacturing was at first. Then the hole plugging began for real...

Gotta love the enthusiasm the kids have for 3D printing though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HPL (Nov 27, 2020)

Joaquin Suave said:


> I have a confession...
> 
> I "baited" you guys!
> 
> ...



I greatly appreciate your post! It has given me a reason to find a different forum site. Yes, I feel foolish for even starting to read this thread thinking I might glean some useful information from it. That's all I come here for, and I won't have my time wasted by someone who feels it is appropriate to "bait" anyone here for any reason. Come out up front, first thing, and show your true intentions; I don't think it would have changed many comments prior to the "outing of yourself", but it may have changed some opinions others may have had towards you after the way you conducted yourself (is name calling, expletives, etc. really called for!) and hid your ulterior motive. Again, I thank you for providing the impetus for the removal of my account, and if possible, any material I may have contributed. To the rest of the members I apologize for this post which does nothing to forward the conversation. Take care and be safe everyone! 

Respectfully, Howard   
Ride Fast, Be Safe!  

PS. To be factual Joaquin, if your attention to detail in your manufacturing is similar to your attention to detail regarding your grammar and spelling, you would not be receiving my business anyways; regardless of my initial desire for a product now knowing its source and level of diligence.


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## the tinker (Nov 27, 2020)

I don't understand anything here.  I had a great Thanksgiving. . . I hope everyone else did too!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Nov 27, 2020)

I had a great thanksgiving, there is a lot I do not understand this thread included


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## cyclingday (Nov 27, 2020)

The Cartel says, Relax, Enjoy, and Lets go Cruisin!


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## BFGforme (Nov 27, 2020)

HPL said:


> I greatly appreciate your post! It has given me a reason to find a different forum site. Yes, I feel foolish for even starting to read this thread thinking I might glean some useful information from it. That's all I come here for, and I won't have my time wasted by someone who feels it is appropriate to "bait" anyone here for any reason. Come out up front, first thing, and show your true intentions; I don't think it would have changed many comments prior to the "outing of yourself", but it may have changed some opinions others may have had towards you after the way you conducted yourself (is name calling, expletives, etc. really called for!) and hid your ulterior motive. Again, I thank you for providing the impetus for the removal of my account, and if possible, any material I may have contributed. To the rest of the members I apologize for this post which does nothing to forward the conversation. Take care and be safe everyone!
> 
> Respectfully, Howard
> Ride Fast, Be Safe!
> ...



Please don't let this ahole ruin this site for you! There's lots of real people on here who aren't jerks and give real insite and great information touching on many subjects that really help! Again sorry you stumbled on this thread and ride on!!!!


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## mickeyc (Nov 27, 2020)

WHEW!!!!!


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## rustjunkie (Nov 27, 2020)




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