# What would you think / how would you respond if a seller sent you this bike?  Or... a cautionary tale of buyer beware (pics)



## BikesGuru (Feb 19, 2022)

Hello Cabers,

Wanted to shed some light on and share a recent experience I had with a seller here on the Cabe, and also wanted to get your honest opinions on this.

*If I can prevent just one of you from ever having to go through what I've experienced, and the $$ I’ve lost, then this will have served it’s purpose. *

Maybe on the CABE I’m not supposed to mention the seller by name, so I won’t. But you've likely seen those “Collection Reduction” listings, before they got yanked.

*So… Imagine if you had been told THIS by a seller, while being shown (or rather not shown) these details about a bike, AND THEN you received the bike shown in my pics below.* 

*What would you think, and how would you respond?*

Would you just obediently agree with what the seller suggests as a reasonable difference of opinion on the condition and value of the bike?

*A bit of background and lead up to this… *

I restored my first vintage Schwinn - a 1952 DX 24” - when I was 11 years old, some 43 years ago.  I’ve had the vintage bike bug, and a deep interest in it ever since.

Though with real life getting in the way I haven’t been actively doing it lately. 

*A few months ago my sweetie noticed a pic of me as a kid riding that 24” Schwinn, and surprised me with a combo birthday/Christmas present of $1000 to find something similar, yet 26” so my adult self could ride it.*

So I started putting some feelers out to see what was available, and among the options was a 1951 DX-ish Schwinn here on the Cabe.

This one looked good (from afar), so I started a conversation with the seller.

*I was setting the bar pretty low, which was basically either a somewhat rusty/patina'd original, or a decent older restore would be fine. 

A good solid rider that's mostly unmolested and not embarrassing to be seen on.  Or at least as good as my (somewhat skilled) 11-year old self's bike.*

Now realize that over the past few years I've bought 10+ used bikes for myself, or friends and relatives. From under $1000 riders to $5000-$7000 mountain bikes, all in various stages of ridden/ridden hard.

In every single case, the seller went out of their way to describe the bike in such a way to highlight all of its good points, while giving specific focus to anything that was damaged, questionable, or might need attention.

*In other words fully disclosing everything, so what the buyer receives is in alignment with what the seller described and promised to send, so there's no surprises.

I expected a similar experience here, especially from someone who's not a random Craigslist seller, but part of a close-knit vintage bike community, who makes himself out to be an expert in the space.*

He was saying all the right words, and surely within the 21 photos he sent, I figured there would be at least a few shots of any damage, and anything else that would affect the true and actual value of the bike.

*But still something seemed "off" about the paint job, which he described as "an older restore". (In hindsight this was only the tip of the iceberg).

So I mentioned this, and asked for pics of the worst areas, so I could get a feel for the true condition and value of the bike before I threw down a boatload of money, plus $150 disassembly and boxing fee from his local bike shop, and $130 in shipping cost.*

Seems like a reasonable request considering the money that was about to change hands.

*The seller’s response?:*

He quickly pushed back and let me know I was completely out of line for asking the question, telling me:

*"The photos are complete".  "You're over thinking this".  "The bike is solid!"*

"I've collected for years" (Actually, by his words bought his first vintage bike in Nov 2017 I later learned). 

"If you're wanting perfect/all original, you can try to find one and pay double."

To this last point I’ll say: Who was asking for perfect?  And besides, to replace / undo the stench of this bike, I just purchased the most pristine all original 1949 DX for much less than I've got into this bike. So where do your distorted bike values come from?

*So anyway, based on his “complete” photos, the conviction in which he pushed back when I asked for more pics, the $1,000 FIRM price, and all of my past experience with other sellers in the bike space, I assumed the bike was going to be in alignment with all of the above, so I decided to send the money. *

He refuses to accept Paypal. Only Zelle or Venmo.  Hindsight is 20/20.

Fast forward to a few weeks later when I received the box and finally had time to unbox and assemble it.

*Here is what I found - see pics below.*

Little did I know until I started unboxing, that of the 21 pics he sent, none of them really showed or disclosed anything but the bike's best/least worst angles, with the exception of the dented chain guard (which I saw and was acceptable).

They were the bicycle equivalent of soft focus glamour shots.

One of the pics he sent of the rim actually DID show a secondary defect - which looked like either a paint splash, a blob of drywall mud or a bird turd - that actually did a good job of distracting from the actual defect - a horrendous underlying paint / "restore" job on the rims.

The "painter" had such little skill and expertise, and either using a spray can or paint brush (possibly house paint?) attempted to recreate the classic white pinstriped S2 rims by first painting the white, with no prep for adhesion, then masking off for the black pinstripes (cheesy at best), and then proceeding to pull much of the white paint off (and some of the pinstripes) while removing the masking tape.

The rim paint is either in some state of gone, or flaking off.

*Here’s the pics:*





*If one pic could convey the quality of this bike*







































*Is that done with a paintbrush?  Maybe house paint?*



















*Completely twisted crank and pedal axles*





























*Dented rim*




*Wood screw barely holding on the front fender.  The fork threads were too corroded to take a regular screw
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And these don't even show the other issues with the bike:

a) Wheels are so bent and out of true they look like they've just finished the Baja 500.

b) Truss rods were bent in multiple places.  Had to straighten them.

c) Tank horn mechanism is non-functioning and irreparable.

d) Tail light mechanism is non-functioning and irreparable (headlight does work).

e) Many missing fasteners.  4 of the fender mounting river screws only had the "rivet", but no nut and washer.

f) Only sent a pic of the un-torn side of the seat, not the torn side.

g) A strange gooey coating over the entire bike paint. Looked like a mixture of varnish and clear silicone smeared all over the bike. Probably some type of un-cured clear coat or "protectant".

It took me and my wife 3 hours to strip all this goo off to make the bike more "presentable" (i.e. slightly less of a steaming turd).

Links to video of bent wheels:*









						New video by Bernie Tusko
					






					photos.app.goo.gl
				












						New video by Bernie Tusko
					






					photos.app.goo.gl
				





*It took the better part of 2 days to replace the crank, straighten the twisted pedal axles, tighten all of the bearings, straighten the truss rods, replace all of the missing fasteners, strip the goo off the paint and various other turd polishing to try to make the bike presentable and minimize the loss I was going to take.*

*How would you respond, after being told those words, then sent this bike?*

*After being told:

"The photos are complete"

"You're over thinking this"

"The bike is solid!"

All of which are patently false statements.  This bike couldn’t even be described as “solid” on the most basic “bicycle” level, let alone as a collectible.*

He even said *"I was as forthcoming as I could be”*, while failing to disclose much of anything accurately about the bike.

The most accurate thing the seller *COULD* have said, that would have made sending me this bike justifiable?  How about this:

———————————————————————————————————
Even though I’ve had this bike in my collection for a few years, I can’t really tell you much about it, other than it’s a 1951 Schwinn D19, and it’s green and ivory.

Beyond that, you’re just going to have to take your chances.
—————————————————————————————————

Now THAT would have been much more accurate.

*It would be reasonable to think that at least ONE of the pics, angles and defects in the above pics would be included in the pics that the seller sent.  Even if we remove any pics of hidden damage like the gooseneck, seat post etc.*

It’s as if he unilaterally decided that none of the bike’s defects would be important to the buyer.

And for some reason decided that I was the guy to finally unload this turd on.

*All it would have taken is any ONE of these pics above, and it would have been a non-starter and "no deal". *

Just like everyone else who has seen the bike in person over the years and gave him a hard “pass”. And I wouldn't be out nearly $1400 including the replacement cranks I had to buy, not counting all of the time, effort and frustration.

*In life and in business things go wrong, and we make mistakes.

It’s often not a matter of the “wrong”, but what the seller does to make it right.*

So after bringing all of this to seller’s attention, he’s had weeks and multiple opportunities to do ANYTHING to try and make this right.

But instead, he thought it best to turn this into a masterclass on how not to do business.

*He decided it's best to double down in trying to justify his actions, while feigning outrage and insult that I've confronted him and called him out on this.*

While hiding behind "no guarantees on used bikes" and sold "as-is" to cover the massive gap between what he said he was selling, and what he actually sent.  Which he suggests is "a difference of opinion”.

*He then told me "You will not be getting a refund! Sell it locally and cut your losses if it doesn’t meet your expectations".

Then blocked me on the CABE, told me to not ever contact him again, and said "Get a life!" 

He even suggested that I was not allowed to tell anyone about my direct experience with him.*

Hmm... people get to tell others about a bad meal in a restaurant, or a bad stay at a hotel, but he gets to dictate that I'm supposed to quietly and obediently sit here and accept being cheated?

*So… now I’m left to try to recoup a fraction of my losses trying to sell this locally.*

After doing everything we could to make the bike presentable and rideable, I placed an ad, and instantly began getting responses from people who were very excited and had cash in hand ready to buy.

*When they arrived, that excitement quickly turned to disappointment, and of the 12 people who traveled to look at it, all but one walked away with a “did I really just come all that way to look at THIS bike” sort of disgust.

The last one reluctantly offered $500, which I had no choice but to take.*

One last thing that I just can't figure out…

If these “amateurs” could tell the real value of this bike within 5 minutes, and a real expert who saw it, whom many of you know and respect could tell within 5 pics and 5 seconds…

How is it that this “expert” seller was unable to properly judge the value of this bike in the years it was in his collection?

If, after me and my wife spending the better part of 2 days trying to whip the bike into shape, it was only/barely worth $500 to a buyer, then how much was the bike that the seller sent to me actually worth.

Thanks for letting me bend your ear.


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## Freqman1 (Feb 19, 2022)

I’d like to see the original photos he sent. Unless they were taken at great distance I think the quality of the paint job should have been at least somewhat obvious. The other stuff like the fender screw, bent pedal axles, seat post, and rim ding are fairly minor things in my book. Some things I don’t see until I start taking a bike apart. This is when I communicate with the buyer and let them know of any issues. Because this bike was disassembled and packed by someone else he was likely never aware of some of these issues. As a buyer I ask all the questions that are important to me and if the seller hesitates or bulks I pass. There were more than a few red flags here but you moved forward. That said he certainly was not forthcoming and Should have made more of an effort to make this right. V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday (Feb 19, 2022)

One things for sure, if you’re in this hobby for very long, you’re bound to get a few deals like that.
I call those, the Hot Potatoes.
They can’t get rid of it fast enough, and neither can you.
Of course the guys not going to tell you, the potato is hot.
He wants to get rid of it!
Then, so do you, as soon as you get your hands on it, and feel the burn.
I chalk those up, to the high cost of an education.
I bet the next bike you buy, you’ll look past that pretty green paint, and see more of what’s really there.
Calling someone a used car salesman is an insult for a reason.
Those guys would sell their mothers without disclosing the rheumatoid arthritis, and the ingrown toenails.
It sucks when you get burned like that, but if there’s any solace in the old saying, that misery loves company.
We’ve all been there.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 19, 2022)

Let me get this right. The seller lied, misrepresented and most likely even created some of the problems with this bike, says he is an "expert" and should be trusted on his word as such, but in the end the buyer is the one at fault?

Come on guys!

This self proclaimed "expert" obviously is one of two things. 
A Lying con artist who uses his "expert" status to pass off crappy bikes he dug out of garages, basements, or flower gardens and maybe washed them off, looked at them for a while and said to himself "I bet I can rook some eager to buy sucker (no offense to the OP meant) for a grand on this!
Or; 
A lying snake who took a piece of crap or a pile of crappy parts and dressed them up with a little paint and stuck them in his "collection for a while to say he owned one. Then he shot glamor photos to hide his work and put the bike out for sale as part of a "Collection Reduction" sale.

Then along comes the OP, eager to buy a bike to relive his childhood for a few moments at a time. He sees this bike for sale on of all places, THE CABE!!!!! 
I thought we were a close knot group of guys trying to help each other out, share a love for a part of our lives no matter what bike we ride or love, and yes, sell some parts and bikes in Classifieds.
It should go without saying that those parts and bikes should be what we say they are to the best of our knowledge and abilities.
If this MEMBER is indeed an "EXPERT" as he claims, he knew what a piece of crap the bike was and maliciously covered it up by shooting the best glamor poses he could of the bike.

Not showing the rip in the seat? The bent crank and pedal? The horrible paint job made apparent by the big white spot (that was the crap coming through) and the elementary school grade rim painting and pinstripe job? 
These are things that an amateur buyer would (and did by the words of the OP) notice with a 5 minutes or less examination of the bike. 

So what do I here about this? Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like the seller is getting a pass on his complete fraudulent  non-disclosure of the condition of the bike and the buyer is being spanked for his inability to see the flaws in those glamor shots, and for succumbing to some of the oldest USED CAR SALESMAN AND TELEMARKETER tricks like "Act now"! Don't wait"! Don't think about it or you will miss out"! "I am the expert and you are the layman"! (Wait, that sounds more like a Doctor.)

To top it off, the buyer cannot post these photos with the sellers name and a post titled "Buyer Beware"?

This forum is huge and I guess there will always be disreputable "USED BIKE SALESMEN" so I fail to see why the forum doesn't have a "BUYER BEWARE" thread and ban sellers like this for life! Other forums I am a member of do this.

I will only do PayPal F&F with people I get a good feeling about. I understand the new screwing our government is giving us on sales over $600 being reported to the IRS. 
But if I haven't bought from a seller before, or have excellent photos and full disclosure and honesty from the seller they will either take PayPal goods and services or find another buyer to scam.

I will say I have had good luck with the sellers  I have bought from so far and will buy from them on their preferred payment method. A seller I have never bought from had better be nice, honest and show me the damage, not just the dazzle.

To summarize, I am with the buyer 200% on this believeI believe all of us should feel outraged and these sellers should be outed and banned for life!

My name is Rob and I support this message.
Rob


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## cyclingday (Feb 19, 2022)

Let me clarify.
Non Disclosure of obvious issues, is never justifiable.
But, some guys are Con Artists, and they love gullible people.
Don’t be gullible!
Educate yourself, so that you know what you’re looking at, and if the Con Artist won’t show you the left side of the bike, it probably means, that’s where the big dent is.
Lack of information can be just as valuable. 
You just learned who not to buy from.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 19, 2022)

Thanks for clarifying. 

Now I want to clarify as well.

It is wrong and irresponsible of us all and the forum to let these guys get away with this fraud and theft!

There is a sucker born every minute. So the OP learned his lesson for a $1000 tuition fee.
He will never do this again.
So the next minute this seller finds another mark and defraud him for another $1000. Now the teacher is ahead $2000 and the only lesson the teacher taught them is "Don't trust the Teacher". 
This forum is, in effect the Teacher as well. So now the buyer loses trust in us because we all are in effect accomplices to what this seller just did right here in front of us all?

What benefit is this to us or the hobby, or as I call it lifestyle. This is not a hobby for me nor is it a living. I sell some stuff here and there but I probably will not make $1000 all year. I am 62 years old and will probably die with most of the bikes I have left. Other than my posts most of you don't know anything about me other than what I tell you.

So why would you or the OP be willing to purchase anything from me, especially after this highly overpaid "Teacher" just defrauded a member here for $1000 and all everybody seems to say is Caveat Emptor  and tell him the one thing he already paid $1000 to learn.

Don't do it again.

I do not want to make any enemies here, with the exception of the scrotum toad that did this and any other buttclowns out there that do or are contemplating doing the same thing.

We should a be outraged at the seller!!!!!

We should all band together and do everything  in our power to prevent these buttmunches from doing this  to anyone on
OUR FORUM. 

Dave is the creator and owner and I am not trying to take anything away from him.
But this forum belongs to all of us and would not be the megaforum it is without every one of us. We cannot afford to lose one good member to this or any other problem arising here, and we cannot afford to retain even one bottom dwelling shyster like this seller for any reason. I don't care if you know the person, or if they are your friend or even a family member. If the person does something like this, they do not deserve the benefits of this forum, or the anonymity they are being given. It's like they just got a free pass to do it again. Maybe next time they will be the ones using a photo they gleaned off the internet and maybe it will be me or one of you that takes the bait. I am certain you will feel much differently when it's you losing $1000 tuition or more to this "Teacher". I know what I would do but I am not allowed to say it here.

It would involve a few day vacation with my new purchase backtracking it to its original shipping address and working out a refund with the seller in person.

Hey wait. If the OP still has the original photos and the ones you showed, this purchase if it crossed state lines is a Felony Fraud and the FBI has jurisdiction here. If the OP is over 55 that also is another Felony. The seller could be looking at a long vacation in one if the Federal Governments privately run Vatention Centers.

Maybe I would do that first. Prison life is hell and people like him can end up in some very painful positions with guys in there for all day who don't give a crap about the consequences.

I hope this makes everyone here think about how this transaction affected YOU.
As well as the respect and trust anyone looking into this forum for information or membership may lose when they stumble on this thread by accident like I did.
Rob


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## AmandaHSanDiego (Feb 19, 2022)

I've fallen for this as well.  
I still like the bike but definitely overpaid.
Non disclosed rust that made part of my chrome frame swell.
A cracked front hub that had bearing grease oozing out all around the hub on both sides.
Cracked front fender.
Only the best angles of paint shown.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 19, 2022)

I am sorry to hear that.. I hope it did not happen here.
The swelling was probably from water inside the frame that froze and thawed. The freezing damage can be like what happens to water pipes in a freezing situation.
Did the bike come from somewhere that has cold winters?


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## hzqw2l (Feb 19, 2022)

Unfortunate for sure.  Local face to face deals are always preferred...for the obvious reason.


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## BikesGuru (Feb 19, 2022)

Thanks for the insights and spirited discourse Cabers.

Yes, a learning experience indeed.  In total nearly $1400 out of pocket with disassembly, boxing and shipping (and new parts) for the wisdom.

A bit ironic that to arrive at where I intended to go in the first place (a good solid rider that I could enjoy) cost me nearly $2500 (closer to $2000 minus what I got for the turd).  $2000 could have bought quite a bit of bike.

But the happy part of this outcome is that I found / was led to an absolute dream boat of a bike for just over $1000 from fellow Caber and class act Bob U (I owe you one Bob!)

So yes... back to the turd/hot potato.  Definite red flags I should have recognized.

Here are a few of the actual pics, in their full resolution as sent by the seller.

Seems like the rim pic was trying to suggest "that's the defect on the rims".  Looks pretty normal other than the blob, doesn't it?

And I thought the strange texture on the green finish was just the low resolution photograph, but no, it looked exactly like this, the strange gooey coating all over the paint.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 19, 2022)

I am already saying FRAUD!!!!!
I, on behalf of all fellow CABE members sincerely apologize that one of out fellow members did this to you. Unfortunately that is all I can do, but I feel it only right to offer my condolences for your lost time and about $2000 you lost in the end.
Yes, that rim sure looked nice in the photo, as does the paint. The dent is visible as you said but the rest of the bike looks decent for its age.
Glad you got one you like. 
Rob


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## catfish (Feb 19, 2022)

Lots of red flags...


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 19, 2022)

I need a box of those man!


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## catfish (Feb 19, 2022)

How about a bike barn full?


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## AmandaHSanDiego (Feb 19, 2022)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> I am sorry to hear that.. I hope it did not happen here.
> The swelling was probably from water inside the frame that froze and thawed. The freezing damage can be like what happens to water pipes in a freezing situation.
> Did the bike come from somewhere that has cold winters?



It did happen here, and it did come from a place where it could freeze.  I was wondering what would cause such wierd damage.

I wasn't expecting a pristine bike, but like others, woukd like to have concern areas noted.


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## The Carolina Rambler (Feb 19, 2022)

It would seem to me that for the seller to have been more honest, the bicycle should have been advertised something along the lines of "older amateur repaint" as opposed to "older restoration".  Because, from what I have seen, there was no restoration done, it was simply repainted, and poorly at that for the most part.  Had the seller provided clearer photographs, it would have been more noticeable to potential buyers that the bike is probably moreso a $400-$500 project than a $1000 restored machine.


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## Hastings (Feb 19, 2022)

Such a shame. Supposed to be a fun hobby. Buying anything long distance is always a risk. Seller should do their best to disclose any obvious defects that the buyer would notice if he was actually standing there. red flags everywhere indeed.  Honest people will always send more pictures without hassle. They would want you to be happy riding their ‘collection’ bike. Such a long, long time to be gone and a short time to be here. Treat people fair teach your kids to treat people fair.


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## GTs58 (Feb 19, 2022)

Hastings said:


> Such a shame. Supposed to be a fun hobby. Buying anything long distance is always a risk. Seller should do their best to disclose any obvious defects that the buyer would notice if he was actually standing there. red flags everywhere indeed.  Honest people will always send more pictures without hassle. They would want you to be happy riding their ‘collection’ bike. Such a long, long time to be gone and a short time to be here. Treat people fair teach your kids to treat people fair.
> 
> View attachment 1573222



This looks like the item being talked about in this thread. Is it?


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## The Carolina Rambler (Feb 19, 2022)

Hastings said:


> Such a shame. Supposed to be a fun hobby. Buying anything long distance is always a risk. Seller should do their best to disclose any obvious defects that the buyer would notice if he was actually standing there. red flags everywhere indeed.  Honest people will always send more pictures without hassle. They would want you to be happy riding their ‘collection’ bike. Such a long, long time to be gone and a short time to be here. Treat people fair teach your kids to treat people fair.
> 
> View attachment 1573222



Wow, it really looked pretty good in that picture.  Definitely closer pictures to show the detail or pinstripes would have been a must.  Honestly, my advice to whoever has it now at this point, would be to re-do the rims, and the fork stripes, patch the seat and straighten the cranks, whitewalls, and then they might have a pretty decent rider there.


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## HEMI426 (Feb 19, 2022)

This hobby like most hobbies have 2 kinds of people, the ones in it for the money and the ones in it for the passion. Kinda reminds me of deer hunting. People don't hunt where there aren't any deer, they only go where they have a chance of getting an easy one and sometimes not even a NO TRESSPASSING Sign dosen't stop them from hunting there. Kicking them off the Cabe won't stop them  they'll just hunt somewhere else. Once we can learn how to separate the money guys from the passion guys it will be happy hunting for all of us.


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## Freqman1 (Feb 19, 2022)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> Now I want to clarify as well.
> 
> ...



Dave is not the creator and owner of this forum. He is the webmaster and a moderator. I know the seller and he is no expert. He got into the hobby a few years ago, went hog wild without knowing what he was doing, and despite good advice still bought a lot of crap. I'm by no means trying to justify anything he did but how many red flags do you need. No selling platform is immune from a few bad apples and for the most part the CABE is a pretty safe place to do business. Like Marty said a lesson learned. Also like Marty said all of us who have done this for any length of time have got a deal we didn't feel good about. Like a bad golf shot you gotta shake it off and move on. V/r Shawn


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## BikesGuru (Feb 19, 2022)

In the end, here's what found me. Only paid $1,100 for it:









						Sold - Unrestored orig 1949 Schwinn DX "Creampuff!" of a survivor, near mint!---F/S | Archive (sold)
					

SUPER incredible survivor the likes of which rarely pops up out of the woodwork these days. Frame dates this one to 1949.  Paint is unbelievable... there were 2 very old and small touch ups on the rear Ivory dart on the back fender, and a couple of tiny dings on the red (Top of the fender) that...




					thecabe.com
				




Here's a pic of that sweet 24" that started it all.

Not all original, and I added a 4 speed Nexus hub and longer cranks in later years before i sold it 15 years ago.  Love that (now unobtanium) shifter.

But not bad for an 11 year old's restoration job.  Though I had some cool neighborhood dads for help and advice.

Even bought and learned how to use a Beugler pinstriping tool to do the wheels, tank and chain guard.  No masked pinstripes for this kid!


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## fordmike65 (Feb 19, 2022)

PM coming. I'd like to steer clear of this asshat


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## hzqw2l (Feb 19, 2022)

catfish said:


> How about a bike barn full?



We have a b-i-n-g-o


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## cyclingday (Feb 19, 2022)

See,
You’re already putting that education to good use.
1st lesson learned, Cherry Unrestored original condition bike.
2nd lesson learned, Reputable Seller with a verifiable track record.


Congrats!
A+


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## Rivnut (Feb 19, 2022)

Now that you’ve posted the original thread, we can all see who the seller is.  😉 From what I read that Shawn posted, to me the guy is a flipper who really doesn’t know much about bicycles other than how to turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse.  Not an expert by any means.  Guess that’s why I’m happy not buying ”finished” bicycles unless I can eyeball them up close and personal.


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## bikewhorder (Feb 19, 2022)

I would have lost interest at the phrase "older restoration" in the description. .


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## Handle Bar Hoarder (Feb 19, 2022)

catfish said:


> How about a bike barn full?



i here you loud & clear .........👌👌👌


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## tech549 (Feb 19, 2022)

the $150.00 disassembly fee is kind of out of line!on top of the $130.00 shipping charge!
funny how when some guys buy bikes they want the seller to pay for shipping ( bike barn) 
and when they sell ,oh well you get the picture!!!!


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## Freqman1 (Feb 19, 2022)

Looks like he has been suspended!


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## BikesGuru (Feb 19, 2022)

tech549 said:


> the $150.00 disassembly fee is kind of out of line!on top of the $130.00 shipping charge!
> funny how when some guys buy bikes they want the seller to pay for shipping ( bike barn)
> and when they sell ,oh well you get the picture!!!!



Yep, $150 is steep, but the bike shop actually did an amazing job.  

Their shipping quote through Bikeflights was $180 I think, but $130 was the best shipping cost I could find, via Shipbikes.com


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## 1motime (Feb 19, 2022)

In the end you ended up with a very special bike. It's a beauty!  Give it a good home and it should last forever. You did the right thing in calling out a crook. Try to put it behind and enjoy the ride!


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## BikesGuru (Feb 19, 2022)

1motime said:


> In the end you ended up with a very special bike. It's a beauty!  Give it a good home and it should last forever. You did the right thing in calling out a crook. Try to put it behind and enjoy the ride!



Yes, thanks!  In the end things often seem to work out as they should


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## mrg (Feb 19, 2022)

A sad situation but the red flags were there, the sellers attitude first, that would have ended it for me, If I'm spending $$$ you'd better be ready to answer some questions, pics ( or lack of ), payment, packing, shipping cost, This "collection reduction" thing that drug on and on and never heard anything good about it!, just seemed like someone that was/is NOT a expert, overpaid for a bunch of bikes ( some crap ) and now was trying to get out! ( or maybe he was a flipper from the start ), as far as the cabe community I don't think I'd heard of him before the reduction sale, that ad ran for awhile so any other unsatisfied buyers?


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## The Carolina Rambler (Feb 19, 2022)

mrg said:


> A sad situation but the red flags were there, the sellers attitude first, that would hav ended it for me, If I'm spending $$$ you'd better be ready to answer some questions, pics ( or lack of ), payment, packing, shipping cost, This "collection reduction" thing that drug on and on and never heard anything good about it!, just seemed like someone that was/is NOT a expert, overpaid for a bunch of bikes ( some crap ) and now was trying to get out! ( or maybe he was a flipper from the start ), as far as the cabe community I don't think I'd heard of him before the reduction sale, that ad ran for awhile so any other unsatisfied buyers?



I bought a bike from him, and personally I was pleased with the transaction, and it went well.  He did have some very nice bikes, especially earlier on, and some like the one I bought, had been in museums that closed.  Of course I also saw in there a lot of bikes that had been on local Craigslist years earlier.  I can't believe that he was able to find that many bikes in just 5 years time, that's shocking!


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## SirMike1983 (Feb 19, 2022)

When you are at that price level, the pictures need to be numerous and very good. There should be no hassle when posing questions, and there shouldn't be an argument over providing more information. I can see buying a $20 junker and being told "it is what it is - take it or leave", but when we're talking many hundreds and into the thousands of dollars, it should be a top-flight sales effort. You're playing in the big leagues when you're talking that kind of money.

I have several hobbies and the old bike hobby, in my experience has one of the higher rates of dishonesty, at least the hobbies I participate in. I regularly see sales or auctions, on the CABE, on eBay, craiglist, facebook, for old bikes or parts where there are serious red flags. We've all been bitten at one point or another. 

I was once bitten by a CABE member sale on a pre-1930 antique bike that looked good in the photos. The one angle that was missing was the angle that would have told that a car backed into the non-driveside chain stay. I was angry when I saw damage. I never had any redress and I wound up selling the parts to break even. The seller was also, from what I can tell, using Postal Money Orders to evade federal income taxes. I'm glad I at least broke even by parting what was left of it. I've repaired and ridden vintage bicycles since 1994 and this happened in about 2012, so you're not the first and won't be the last to take a hit. We all live and learn.


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## Archie Sturmer (Feb 19, 2022)

I have asked sellers about unclear pictures before, (does that show a dent or a hole?), only to have the sellers delete the pictures, and then later I forgot what I had previously seen, not remembering why I might have passed on the sale before?

I recall seeing a collection reduction ad before that listed a bunch of bicycles, but did not provide pictures, well, not for of all of those listed.  The ad did include a statement to contact the OP for additional pictures of the bikes shown or not shown.  So I reported the thread to the moderators for deletion but they declined, choosing to let the rules slide.


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## oldmtrcyc (Feb 19, 2022)

Yep, that same seller got me.  I bought a $3500 bike from him ($3780 with shipping and packing).  It arrived with a junk set of pedals, that were not shown on the bike in the ad.  The old switcheroo cost me another $250.   Don't buy from a barn 3,000 miles away!


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## mrg (Feb 19, 2022)

Hate to say it but if this is the bike in question? the new owner got a hell of a deal at $500, (*The last one reluctantly offered $500, which I had no choice but to take.?)  *with everything said amateur paint & all definitely worth more than that especially after the work you put into it! ( seems like those tanks are going for $300+ ), sounds like the 12 people that looked at it did know much!


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## GTs58 (Feb 19, 2022)

mrg said:


> Hate to say it but if this is the bike in question? the new owner got a hell of a deal at $500, (*The last one reluctantly offered $500, which I had no choice but to take.?)  *with everything said amateur paint & all definitely worth more than that! ( seems like those tanks are going for $300+ ), sounds like the 12 people that looked at it did know much!View attachment 1573532





I'm getting confused. The new owner paid well over twice that. Where did $500 come in to play?


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## BikesGuru (Feb 19, 2022)

Fwiw, the tank had actually been repainted and didn't look so good up close, and one of the people who walked away seemed very knowledgeable, and said the tank was a repop


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## BikesGuru (Feb 19, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> I'm getting confused. The new owner paid well over twice that. Where did $500 come in to play?



When I did my best to polish the turd and sold it at a loss.


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## mrg (Feb 19, 2022)

@GTs58 read the last couple of paragraphs of post #1, and I'd be surprised if it was a repop tank but if so that should have been on TOP of on your list of complaints about the original purchase, that would be another BIG strike against the OG seller!, just saying you could have got alot more of your money back.


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## Chris1948 (Feb 19, 2022)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> Let me get this right. The seller lied, misrepresented and most likely even created some of the problems with this bike, says he is an "expert" and should be trusted on his word as such, but in the end the buyer is the one at fault?
> 
> Come on guys!
> 
> ...



👏👏👏


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## BFGforme (Feb 19, 2022)

I just saw this bike on cl in Orange County for $1100?


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## Handle Bar Hoarder (Feb 19, 2022)

i blocked this guy  about 3 year's ago.. i had bicycle's for sale..  the guy hit's me up here on the cabe talkin this & that like a real bad person.. so i sad if you don't like the bike then don't buy it.. i hate people like this.. they tried to belittle you so they can get their way.. in this fool's case he got his a$$ blocked.. and now he's  banned GOOD RIDDANCE....the cabe doesn't need people like that on here.........................................


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## mrg (Feb 19, 2022)

BFGforme said:


> I just saw this bike on cl in Orange County for $1100?



I wouldn't be surprised ( I was thinkin 8 or 900 ) looks like BikesGuru made the best out of a turd, and don't think anyone is saying it's his fault but any red flags should not be ignored, as Marty said it's happened to all of us ( not just with bikes ) sometimes you put on blinders when you really want something, to bad he didn't get blocked sooner, any others fall victim here?


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## GTs58 (Feb 19, 2022)

BFGforme said:


> I just saw this bike on cl in Orange County for $1100?




Looks real close to the same. 












						1950 Schwinn BF Goodrich B6 long tank bicycle - bicycles - by owner...
					

Here’s a nice Schwinn BF Goodrich Challenger cruiser . Bicycle has been restored years ago (Old Restoration) Chrome it’s in original condition. GoodYear all weather tires are really strong,good...



					orangecounty.craigslist.org


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## Nashman (Feb 19, 2022)

fordmike65 said:


> PM coming. I'd like to steer clear of this asshat



Pass it on.


BikesGuru said:


> Yep, $150 is steep, but the bike shop actually did an amazing job.
> 
> Their shipping quote through Bikeflights was $180 I think, but $130 was the best shipping cost I could find, via Shipbikes.com



I use Shipbikes ( used to use Bikeflights before they dropped Fed Ex for UPS) and usually have ok service. I live in Canada so the costs are high, but all part of the game. Hold 'em or fold 'em.


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## mrg (Feb 19, 2022)

Looks like the same bike with a little more work done!, same pedals with unique diamond blocks, GY All Weather tires, rusty top of the seat post. says posted 29 days ago.


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## BFGforme (Feb 19, 2022)

Just saw where bg lives, thinking he forgot to delete the post


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## Rust_Trader (Feb 19, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> Looks real close to the same. View attachment 1573593
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like the giant reflector


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 19, 2022)

mrg said:


> I wouldn't be surprised ( I was thinkin 8 or 900 ) looks like BikesGuru made the best out of a turd, and don't think anyone is saying it's his fault but any red flags should not be ignored, as Marty said it's happened to all of us ( not just with bikes ) sometimes you put on blinders when you really want something, to bad he didn't get blocked sooner, any others fall victim here?



I think in the thread he said he put $2500 total in the bike and ended up with 12 people coming to look. Eleven of them left and the 12th would only offer $500. He took that. He made the turd into something but he lost $2000 on it.
Not where I would want to be.
Rob


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 19, 2022)

Rust_Trader said:


> I like the giant reflector



I believe his was a 1951.
On the 1st page of this thread.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 19, 2022)

Nashman said:


> Pass it on.
> 
> I use Shipbikes ( used to use Bikeflights before they dropped Fed Ex for UPS) and usually have ok service. I live in Canada so the costs are high, but all part of the game. Hold 'em or fold 'em.



His name is in this thread, when Dave banned him he said the scrotum toads name is Kevin Crowe.
Probably no relation to Russell


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 19, 2022)

I wouldn't be surprised if his name, like his expert status, was an alias.


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## Boris (Feb 19, 2022)

Could someone please do a _*simple*_ synopsis of the chain of events in this thread, I'm completely confused.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 20, 2022)

SYNOPSIS REQUESTED BY MEMBER.

The OP got photos of a bike to purchase from a (former) member and self proclaimed "Expert". The bike looked great in the photos.

OP paid $1000 for the bike.

When OP received the bike weeks later it was not even close to as nice as the glamor shots made it look.

 OP attempted to work this out but seller basically told him to pound sand. Said if you do not like it sell it on CL and cut your losses.

OP spent another $1500 to make the bike presentable, having $2500 total in the bike.

OP posted the bike. After 11 people saw it and walked away OP sold it to a buyer for $500 and took a $2000 loss.

OP asked what we thought.

Members chimed in, including myself. I was the most agitated by this next to the OP, I am probably the one responsible for the confusion since I wrote the two longer posts next to the OP.

A debate ensued and a member contacted me thru PM, and invited the Webmaster and System Administrator Dave on to hear the story, maybe since I had followed it from Post #1.

After Dave reading the ENTIRE thread and knowing who the seller was, he promptly BANNED him (for life I am guessing).

Much celebration (at least at the OPS house and my house) since now we have one less scammer and all around scrotum toad to worry about.

❌ You are here.


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## Robert Troub (Feb 20, 2022)

BikesGuru said:


> Hello Cabers,
> 
> Wanted to shed some light on and share a recent experience I had with a seller here on the Cabe, and also wanted to get your honest opinions on this.
> 
> ...



Why in the world you went ahead with this purchase staggers the imagination.......you had every warning sign, yet you still moved forward.....amazing.....what a stupid decision


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## oldfart36 (Feb 20, 2022)

This is one of those situations that make all of us cringe! Sorry for what you've gone thru!
Someone please clarify for me. I read where his name was Kevin Crowe, but more important, what was his handle here on the CABE?
Also it's stated he's "suspended". Does this mean after the slap on the hand, he can come back and pull this crap again???

In closing! If you feel red flags walk away!!


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## dasberger (Feb 20, 2022)

Bike Barn
					

Bike Barn, Jasper, Georgia. 867 likes · 1 talking about this. Buy/sell/trade vintage (Prewar/Postwar balloon-tire tank bikes) cruiser bicycles preferably in person with cash at my barn on my farm in...




					www.facebook.com


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## oldfart36 (Feb 20, 2022)

dasberger said:


> Bike Barn
> 
> 
> Bike Barn, Jasper, Georgia. 867 likes · 1 talking about this. Buy/sell/trade vintage (Prewar/Postwar balloon-tire tank bikes) cruiser bicycles preferably in person with cash at my barn on my farm in...
> ...



Oh yes, Thanks.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 20, 2022)

oldfart36 said:


> This is one of those situations that make all of us cringe! Sorry for what you've gone thru!
> Someone please clarify for me. I read where his name was Kevin Crowe, but more important, what was his handle here on the CABE?
> Also it's stated he's "suspended". Does this mean after the slap on the hand, he can come back and pull this crap again???
> 
> In closing! If you feel red flags walk away!!



No, Dave banned him. I doubt the suspension will lift in our lifetimes or his.
Ask Dave for clarification, he has the real answer.
Rob


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## PCHiggin (Feb 20, 2022)

Oldbikeguy1960, With respect to your 4th paragraph above. Too bad for sellers not wanting to pay seller fees, that’s the cost of doing business. They dont pay for ads here or almost anywhere online? Can’t get a cheaper way to sell. I won’t buy anything if they require me to pay their fees. I don’t need it


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## Archie Sturmer (Feb 20, 2022)

I would think about *doubling* my losses by spending some more money on the bike, (but I usually like to start on cheaper examples).


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## hzqw2l (Feb 20, 2022)

What's amazing in all of this is that a seller  would risk blowing credibility over $500 to $1000.

The buyer lost some green but the seller lost much, much more.  

You can't buy back your credibility.


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## catfish (Feb 20, 2022)




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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Feb 22, 2022)

I wanted to make a last pitch at hoping everyone could understand my frustration with the responses to this thread, and Dave was willing to let me have one more try.

I understand the OP had a lapse in judgement. He knew that before he posted his thread, he didn't need any of us to tell him.
I am sure we all have made bad judgements in life. I have made many in my 62 years of penance on this level of hell. I do not have any room to criticize the buyer for anything.

What I do feel I have the right to criticize is the sellers obvious and complete lack of scruples in the way he handled this sale and the ensuing buyer's concerns. 
The photos were very deceptive and when the buyer had concerns the seller turned nasty and said things I think are better left for the buyer to relay if he wishes.

I want to ask again for all of us to be a little more understanding and respectful to the buyer. If anyone wants to be mean or rude, direct it toward the fact that the seller was able to pull off this fraud right under all of out noses. I know none of us can cover all the bases but thus is a megaforum. All of us could cover a step between each base and do our part to protect our forum from people like Kevin Crowe who want to use us all to make a quick buck and move on to the next green field.

Don't turn your back and let these things happen here! This reminds me of the tragic incident on a Florida Beach I heard about last year where two boys assaulted and raped a young girl, right on the beach in daylight in front of witnesses. Not one person came to her aid. Instead everyone got out their smartphones, but instead of calling the police they turned on their cameras and made videos of the tragedy to show friends and post online. As if it wasn't already a horrifying experience, now she and her family will have to relive that nightmare for the rest of her life and beyond.

This situation was our chance to do something to help end the buyers nightmare and we dropped the ball. We saw it happen and we punished the victim and gave the perpetrator a free pass to do this to another unsuspecting buyer who wants to relive a part of his life for a few minutes at a time.

All I am asking is that we all take some responsibility for the forum we all get use, information and enjoyment from.
We all need to do our part to police our forum and protect each other from people like Kevin who have no conscience and do not give a second thought to stealing someone's money and dreams for a quick profit.

I know we all think we are invincible, at least until we are not.  Next time it may be you. Then you will wonder why nobody stood up for you, apologized for your loss or better yet did their part to see that it doesn't happen here on OUR FORUM.

Please consider not only what I have said, but what you should've said so if this ever happens here again you might say the right thing. 
Thank you for hearing me out.
Rob


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## BikesGuru (Feb 22, 2022)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> I think in the thread he said he put $2500 total in the bike and ended up with 12 people coming to look. Eleven of them left and the 12th would only offer $500. He took that. He made the turd into something but he lost $2000 on it.
> Not where I would want to be.
> Rob



Someone was confused that I've now got $2500 into this bike. If you count the "new" 1949 Schwinn I bought to replace it, and don't count the $500 I sold it for, then yes.

But my actual $$ loss on the green bike is right around $900 counting disassembly, boxing and shipping, and the good crank I bought. Not counting time, labor, materials, tools (10-24 tap to rethread the fork), and frustration.

In the end I lost about $900 on the entire deal after selling it.  Expensive lesson learned.


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