# Flared Fender Motobike Help Needed - Schwinn, Snyder ?



## New Mexico Brant (Jan 8, 2022)

Here is a sweet flared fender motobike I bought on this last road trip.  It has me corn-fused!   A serial number is nowhere to be found and there isn’t evidence one was filed or sanded off.  The bike has a full rust patina but originally was a red/maroon base coat.  Tell tales should be the flat top fork crown, and the lugging, has anyone seen this long seat mast/top tube lug before?  Or the exposed head tube lugs?  The badge had side screw orientation.  It was suggested the Schwinn Auto-cycle badge may fit; can someone please provide the hole measurement for that type of badge.  
Thank you for any input.
@hoofhearted @chitown @SKPC @Archie Sturmer @Goldenindian @cyclingday


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 8, 2022)

Can anyone please provide badge hole measurements for this badge?  Thank you!
Sorry, I don’t know who took this photo to give you a credit.


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## cyclingday (Jan 8, 2022)

3” inches hole to hole.


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## locomotion (Jan 8, 2022)

Do you have a close up picture of the rear (flaring) on the front fender?
Almost looks like it was added.
It's odd, the tube under the top tube also looks added at a later time.


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## locomotion (Jan 8, 2022)

tempted to say that sprocket looks Westfield, might be wrong


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 8, 2022)

locomotion said:


> Do you have a close up picture of the rear (flaring) on the front fender?
> Almost looks like it was added.
> It's odd, the tube under the top tube also looks added at a later time.



Front lug on the lower tube has been repaired.
One thought to be the earliest version (of the three types/variations known) of the flared fenders; another theory is the two piece variants would allow for the bottom section to be more easily repaired/replaced if it was damaged. They were originally made this way as there have been several all original bikes found with this variant.  Has been discussed extensively before on the forum.  They were made by International Stamping Co. of Chicago.
More on the company and their 1917 patent.








						International Stamping Co and other accessories makers | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

Here are some clips I've found on International Stamping and it's President, Walter Green that I wanted to pass along.    from "Manufacturing and Wholesale Industries of Chicago" published in 1918        Found this pretty interesting: He sold over 500,000 mud guards for motorcycles...




					thecabe.com
				



Any ideas on the frame manufacturer Max?


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## oddball (Jan 8, 2022)

Brant, the Excelsior badge I posted awhile back is the later version, mid 20s to 30s, both versions same hole distancing. What is the distance on the head tube?
Cliff


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 8, 2022)

oddball said:


> Brant, the Excelsior badge I posted awhile back is the later version, mid 20s to 30s, both versions same hole distancing. What is the distance on the head tube?
> Cliff



Cliff, I am getting 2 1/4 or a hair over 2 9/32".


cyclingday said:


> 3” inches hole to hole.



Wow, that is huge Marty, could this maybe be 2"?


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## oddball (Jan 8, 2022)

Dont know who's bicycle this is but fenders look similar. Frame sure looks Schwinn mid twenties, but badge is Pope 1915 or earlier, hole distance may be closer to yours.


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## cyclingday (Jan 8, 2022)

My gut feeling was Westfield built, so Pope seems likely.
The Schwinn Excelsior big X badge wraps well around the headtube, so the 3” measurement hole to hole is accurate.


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## SKPC (Jan 8, 2022)

I was also thinking Westfield or Consolidated.  The frame has Davis attributes, and I have read in the Davis thread that some of their frames _had no serial number stamped_.  The fork looks Westfield although Davis had a similar design w/o truss plate in their lineup.   Sprocket s/b in sprocket compilation & will look there as well Brant...
Shelby made Davis?  This is a tough one.


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 8, 2022)

@catfish any thoughts?  Ed, have your ever seen this flat top fork being used by Westfield.  @Goldenindian has documented several bikes with this fork, he said they were all badged differently but a few for Chicago retailers.


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## catfish (Jan 8, 2022)

New Mexico Brant said:


> @catfish any thoughts?  Ed, have your ever seen this flat top fork being used by Westfield.  @Goldenindian has documented several bikes with this fork, he said they were all badged differently but a few for Chicago retailers.




I believe the fork, and the fenders. But the fenders were used by a bunch of different manufactures. Not sure about the frame.


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## catfish (Jan 8, 2022)




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## catfish (Jan 8, 2022)




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## Archie Sturmer (Jan 8, 2022)

Frame looks like a mixture of the old with the new— older lug frame construction along with then-new smaller double drop bar frame(?).  The taper on the long lug looks peculiar.  Does the long lug look like one piece, or has it been extended or a repair?  Who all even so-extensively used lug frames that late?

Agree with Pete about Consolidated Toledo badges might fit the holes.

Chain ring sprocket reminds me of those in teens EC Simmons’ hardware catalogs.


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## gkeep (Jan 8, 2022)

Nice find Brant.  The Westfield Motorbike frame I found has the same fork crown, brazed truss rods. I've never been sure if this was a parts bike or the original forks for this frame but they seem to both have a few scraps of matching original red paint so...? With an poorly stamped letter on the serial number the date has always been a question too. Was it mis-stamped E?


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 8, 2022)

Archie Sturmer said:


> The taper on the long lug looks peculiar. Does the long lug look like one piece, or has it been extended or a repair?



This is a one piece lug Phil.  I have never seen any others like it.  Again, finding another with this type of lug and badge would solve the mystery.


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## gkeep (Jan 8, 2022)

Archie Sturmer said:


> Frame looks like a mixture of the old with the new— older lug frame construction along with then-new smaller double drop bar frame(?).  The taper on the long lug looks peculiar.  Does the long lug look like one piece, or has it been extended or a repair?  Who all even so-extensively used lug frames that late?
> 
> Agree with Pete about Consolidated Toledo badges might fit the holes.
> 
> Chain ring sprocket reminds me of those in teens EC Simmons’ hardware catalogs.



You reminded me of this Simmons bike with the same forks at LuxLow. 
"This Vintage 1919 Autocycle Motorbike was the Top of the Line Bike offered from the E. C. Simmons Hardware Stores. Simmons Hardware was founded by Edward Campbell Simmons in the 1870s in St. Louis, Missouri and grew to a highly successful nationwide hardware chain. Simmons hardware flourished up until 1922 when it was acquired by Winchester Repeating Arms Still Badged Simmons and then acquired by Shapleigh Hardware Company in 1940 Most Likely no longer Simmons but Badged Shapleigh. Simmons Hardware offered few different Bike models and parts to go with them. Some Later Simmons Bicycles were made by Colson Corporation, but this early one remains a mystery, to the best of my knowledge it is made by Michigan City Excelsior. Simmons was a well trusted hardware store and sold a lot of bikes that are unique with quality construction."


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 8, 2022)

gkeep said:


> You reminded me of this Simmons bike with the same forks at LuxLow.



Yes, that is pretty close!


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## gkeep (Jan 8, 2022)

Brant, how about post #3 in this thread about Colson Flyers. Also hard to find serial number.








						30's Colson Motorbike serial number location? | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

Hi, I'm trying to find the serial number for a 30's Colson Flyer motobike frame. Nothing found on the BB or seatpost downtube. Any help is appreciated.




					thecabe.com


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## chitown (Jan 8, 2022)

Nice steel. I'm gonna lean towards a Snyder built "Vim" 1918-1920's.  Nothing solid, just lots of crumbs leading to a guess. Vim was a jobber by the teens and being from NY, I'd think Snyder would make sense to order frames from as it would be less freight costs than say ordering from Schwinn.


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## SKPC (Jan 9, 2022)

Good reference materials above from Chitown.   Could be an early Snyder with this ring? I could not find this example in the sprocket compilation...anyone else have an original bike with this sprocket?  Below a very informative thread regarding Consolidated Manufacturing up till 1916 when they concentrated on Munitions for the war...... Davis purchased the Yale/Snell badge rights and took over frame/fork making till their demise in 1925/6.  Frame is interesting for sure with no markings. Reference by @dmk441








						Pre 1916 Consolidated Manufacturing Yale bicycles | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

Here's a photo of a 1911 Yale motorcycle I once owned.  I also added a cool early photo of a 1911 4hp, single speed, belt drive.




					thecabe.com
				



And the Consolodated frame with lug construction.


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## Goldenindian (Jan 9, 2022)

Very similar machine. No lugging…but same fork and chainring…chicyco badged..


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## locomotion (Jan 9, 2022)

Goldenindian said:


> View attachment 1545504
> Very similar machine. No lugging…but same fork and chainring…chicyco badged..




sprocket is similar, but looking at it closely ..... they are not identical
might be because they are not from the same year but they are machined differently


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## cr250mark (Jan 10, 2022)

Snyder built  Vim - forks looks like a match
Not same frame lugs 

Chicyco badged motorbike - Goldenindian posted prior to me owning - fork looks same
Similar crank

and early Winchester badged diamond frame with same crank


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