# Interesting 28" wheels, Clinchers?



## seekamoto (Jun 10, 2010)

Does anyone know about these wheels? 

They measure 25” diameter and have solid rubber tires with a fabric covering. The valve stem hole is large and the rear spokes are wrapped with wire where they cross. The wheels look like clinchers, and I’m wondering if I could mount them with some kind of clincher tires and tubes. Size?

I found these stashed in the rafters of a hay shed along with the two frames pictured.

The frame with the two parrallel curved bars has a head badge with the name CROWN, Great Western, La Porte, Indiana. The other frame (motobike style), which has no badge and has badly bent rear stays, had the New Departure C brake arm (It fits the C hub on the rear wheel) still attached to the chain stay. Both frames are for 28”wheels, and both forks have only axle holes, not slots .

I’m real curious about the wire wrapped spokes. Seems like the wheel would have less flex.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Rich


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## DonChristie (Jun 10, 2010)

The wire wrapped spokes is something I have seen before. I think a long time ago, it was the "cool" thing to do. I do believe it would strengthen the rim. As far as your rims go, they are for a 28 inch diameter tire. Add the tire thickness (1.5), twice to the 25 inch and you get 28. As far as tires for your 28 inch rims, search on this site for it. Look under "Dunbar" for telephone and location.


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 10, 2010)

The tied.soldered/wrapped spokes were pretty common in the wood rim era.  Track bikes used wood rims until at least the 1950's, so some roadies also wanted to have them.  Jobst Brandt int "The Bicycle Wheel" shows that they do not add strength at all.  My fuzzy hypothesis is that since wood rims are more flexible, the ties are there to minimize  the noise of spokes banging against each other.  Ride a bike with slack spokes and it's pretty distracting.  
You'll have to pry the old tires off to see if they are clincher rims, but the rag tied around one of the tires makes me think they are glued on singletubes.  The rag would hold the tire in place after a partial glue failure.  If they are cllinchers, a wide 700c tire would probably fit.


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## rustyspoke66 (Jun 10, 2010)

I have a Rollfast with the same rims and have found that a 27X 1-3/8" tire fits pretty good. I havent ridden on them yet, but it looks like it will work. It does take some time to mount them because the tire is slightly larger than the rim. Any ways I'll post some pics and maybe that will explain it better.


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## rustyspoke66 (Jun 10, 2010)

I almost forgot to mention that the iso demention on the tire is 630 and the tire in the picture is holding at 45psi.


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## bud poe (Jun 10, 2010)

Wow, some people have all the luck, great score!  I'm no expert but I've never seen that white fabric covered tire style, very cool.  Good luck with the wheels!


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## seekamoto (Jun 11, 2010)

Thanks for the replies and good information.
Schwinndoggy, and Andrew I think you’re “cool” theory and “fuzzy hypothesis” both hold water. 

I can see a farm boy trying to imitate the big city track racers. The ties on the spokes are crude and not soldered, sorta home brewed. But I can’t imagine riding the solid rubber tires, and steel rims on a gravel road. Then again, this cyclist must have been a determined rider to put up with those lumpy friction tape patches . . . on any surface. 

Rustyspoke it’s great to see you’ve been through this and actually mounted a tire on one. I’ll follow your lead and find some 27”x 1 3/8” (ISO 630)  tires and give it a try. Did your wheels have any remnants of tires left on them when you found the Rollfast? Thanks a million for the photos.

Bud, I was holding back on prying the old rubber off, hoping someone could say what these fabic covered solid tires were actually used for. Guess I’ll go for it now.

Much obliged to all.


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 11, 2010)

I think the fabric cover is just what's left of the tire casing- all of the rubber has just rotted off.  I have some pictures of tires in similar shape at:
http://s53.photobucket.com/albums/g72/gormanao/Wood rim tubeless clincher/
Or maybe the tires are just some kind of hose?


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## seekamoto (Jun 11, 2010)

Andrew-I checked your photos. The fabric on mine does look sorta like the fabric on your tires, but these "tires" never had a valve stem and the rubber under the fabric is solid through and through, like rubber tires for a fancy horse drawn buggy.  It looks like the fabric was the surface that made contact with the roadway. This weekend I'll pry one off to see if there are any other clues. Thanks for the interest. Rich


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## bud poe (Jun 11, 2010)

I always have a hard time removing the old crusty tires just cause I think they look so cool, but if you wanna ride, they gotta go...You should at least leave the wire "stiffeners" on the spokes for effect, just my opinion...Good luck!


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## ejlwheels (Jun 11, 2010)

There is no way that the bare fabric would have survived more than a few minutes of riding.  There must have been some substance in the fabric that has rotted away.  I am thinking that these are not a continuous O, but a length of something, like a smaller diameter version of something similar to a fire hose, that has a wire inside it, joined together (wire tightened and twisted) with the splice covered up with the cloth tape.


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## yewhi (Jun 12, 2010)

Ok, not that your question about the tires isn't interesting and all but...

I want to see pictures of the rest of the things in your shop!  More pictures please!


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## seekamoto (Jun 14, 2010)

ejlwheels you’re assessment is right on the money. Are you psychic?  Photos show two wires running inside the length of the thick walled rubber tubing, and tied off with friction tape patches.

This really looks home made . . . I was thinking this might have been a war time solution to unavialable tires. 

They’re for sure the same wheels as rustyspoke66 has on his Rollfast.
So I’m stripping paint and cleaning up to mount tubes and tires. 

Thanks for all the input. 
Yewhi, I’ll post some photos of my shop soon.
Rich


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## mre straightbar (Jun 14, 2010)

i think they might be tires especially for velodrome racing
which were wood surfaced tracks
defiantly a diy'r


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## DonChristie (Jun 14, 2010)

Not so fast...the wire in the inner is how they used to mount solid rubber tires. Are you sure it is not a solid rubber you need? I think the repro Pneumatic tires woud work.


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## fattommy (Jun 14, 2010)

The spoke ties were pretty common apparently as my old bike had them too (about 1915).  I'm pretty sure you're looking at the rayon inside the rubber tire and that the tires are tubular sew up type that are glued onto the rims.  They sell modern tubular (not to be confused with tube type clinchers) tires but they're VERY expensive.  Modern 700c clincher rims are the same size and you can get clincher tires in many sizes.  The 29er tires used on mountain bikes are 700c but wider than other street type tires in 700c.  You might have problems getting a 29er tire through the chain stays, but 700c x 42mm should work.
Hope this helps
Tommy


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## seekamoto (Jun 14, 2010)

Could be that, Straightbar, if so, I think like Andrew Gorman and ejlwheels . . . there must have been some other gripping surface that has rotted off over the years, also that gap where the wire ties are, has probably widened. 
Thanks again for all the input.

Yewhi, here's some photos of other things in my shop. B10Es in progress, ratted Hawthorne, '38 Straightbar. What's in your shop?


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## fattommy (Jun 14, 2010)

Love that nmotorbike!!!!
Tommy


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## yewhi (Jun 14, 2010)

What's in my shop????  Nothing as cool as this and that's for sure..





but here are a couple of highlights...

A ratted no name Crusier...




A decent old Motobike badged as a Trailblazer (just sanded and into primer)










And a motobike inspired Klunker (not old but worth including due to its unmistakable form)




Aside from that just a couple of old BMX bikes, a few vintage mountain bikes and my cyclocross and road bikes but those aren't appropriate for this thread.

Thanks for the Photos.  You have some great old bikes there and I'm envious!


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## DonChristie (Jun 14, 2010)

Thats a bad azz MTB! I love the use of the struts!


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## seekamoto (Jun 15, 2010)

Yewhi, Thanks for posting your pics. That is a fine looking motobike flavored Klunker, looks worthy. Also that Trail Blazer in looking very straight. Are you going original with it? 

Tommy, I appreciate that further clarification on tire sizes. Do you have a theory on the purpose of the wire ties on the spokes of your early bike?


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## yewhi (Jun 15, 2010)

seekamoto said:


> Yewhi, Thanks for posting your pics. That is a fine looking motobike flavored Klunker, looks worthy. Also that Trail Blazer in looking very straight. Are you going original with it?




Thanks, The Trail Blazer was straight and solid albeit a bit pitted.  I wanted to make it original as possible while still keeping it ride worthy.  The plan is to use vintage parts, although probably not vintage correct with the exception of the Rims.  For those I intend to use 700c Velocity Blunts painted black and pin striped to match the frame.  That brings up the next issue, which is I really don't know what the original paint scheme was.  The paint was essentially gone but I was able to find reminants of blue and red.  I believe the Red was original and the Blue was an old repaint but have no idea whether there was a secondary color or what it was.

So, I'm still on the fence regarding color.  I'm currently considering two options.  The first is to go with the original red and the second is to paint it to match the Klunker.  Given that it won't be truly original anyway, I'm kinda' leaniing toward the second option.  I have a bit more sanding and priming to do on the frame and other parts so I have a little time to really think it through.  Having said that I'd welcome other opinions.

Cheers!

Tim


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## rustyspoke66 (Jun 15, 2010)

Try this site for an explaination of tire sizes.http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/index.html#lesscommon . I have a set of these rims and I also posted a picture of one of them with a 27 X 1-3/8" tire mounted on it. I also found another source of info, wich is a repro copy of a 30's Island Cycle Supply catalog and they actually made 27 X 1-1/2" tires back then. I actually saw a pair of these on ebay once. 




My theory on the tires that are on your bike is that some one used rubber tires that came in a bulk roll and were installed with a special cable tying machine, these were usually used on small hard tire bikes.This tire material came in up to 1-1/4" and could be used on many different rims. Check out the pics from the catalog.






Hope this helps?


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## seekamoto (Jun 16, 2010)

Rustyspoke- That catalog certainly is the best evidence I've seen for an explanation to this question. I appreciate you going the extra mile to solve this. My mind is at ease now that I know I'm not destroying some part of track racing history. 
I'm stripping the wheels now exposing pitted plating on the original surface. I'll post a photo when I get a tire mounted.
Thanks a million for your help.
Rich


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## rustyspoke66 (Jun 16, 2010)

Can't wait to see how it works out.


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## pelletman (Jun 20, 2010)

I bet the Tufo 700 x 28 cyclocross sew ups would fit


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## icyuod2 (Jul 29, 2010)

hey guys. i just signed up to pass on some info.

i used this thread to locate tires for an old set of american made rims.
i tried the 27x1 3/8" and can see how they would work. but 27x1 1/4 is what your looking for, for a perfect fit.
hth

vee rubber 27x1 1/4   32-630


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## dmk441 (Jan 2, 2011)

Does anybody have any of these rims available for sale or for trade? I'd also be interested in the fork or a similar for to the one on the first crown framed bike in this thread, thanks for the help, my email is dmk441@yahoo.com 
Dave


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## Raymond T Lewis (Jun 2, 2011)

you would still have the 28 inch frames?
looking for a larger commuter.

cheers

r


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## tony d. (Jun 2, 2011)

if you look at the laceing of a rim you will see the spokes toutching that's called closed lacing if they don't toutched each other it's called open laceing. closed laceing stay truer longer  so to keek the rim true on an open laced rim you wrap the spokes     but that's just how I see it:0)


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