# WTB: Troxel No. 36 Juvenile C.C. Saddle / Seat - $2500



## Buddyroe (Aug 17, 2019)

I want this seat BAD!!


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## Buddyroe (Aug 17, 2019)

WD


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## Buddyroe (Aug 17, 2019)

WD


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## Buddyroe (Aug 17, 2019)

This is the only known pre-1920 juvenile bicycle to exist in America and I'm determined to save it.

It is not my  bicycle, but all of ours. It is @ivrjhnsn 's bicycle. I want to see it in his museum one day.

Just help me put this little bicycle back together.


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## Buddyroe (Aug 17, 2019)

Don't let this bike die.

I've spent over $10k buying parts for this bike. Many people have ripped me off. I don't care. I just want to save this little bike. 

Some little kid got this bike on Christmas morning in 1919. It was everything to him. Maybe it was your grandfather. Maybe it was mine. It was somebody's.

It endured the GA heat for 100 years and survived somehow. Don't let it die.


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## Buddyroe (Aug 17, 2019)

..
..


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## Kickstand3 (Aug 18, 2019)

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## sm2501 (Aug 18, 2019)

Here ya go!












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## New Mexico Brant (Aug 18, 2019)

I am pretty sure I have one, can get pictures a bit later.


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## New Mexico Brant (Aug 18, 2019)

Here is one, I have another but I can't locate it.










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## Freqman1 (Aug 18, 2019)

Time to whip out the “big boy” wallet!


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## fat tire trader (Aug 18, 2019)

Buddyroe said:


> Don't let this bike die.
> 
> I've spent over $10k buying parts for this bike. Many people have ripped me off. I don't care. I just want to save this little bike.
> 
> ...





What parts have you collected for this bike that have cost so much money? I still have an extra pair of 20" NOS single tube tires.


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## Claysgarage (Aug 18, 2019)

Buddyroe said:


> View attachment 1048680
> ..
> ..



I believe I have have one, but leather has wasted away.


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## Jesse McCauley (Aug 18, 2019)

I have a number of very nice pre 1920 juvenile bicycles.

This Ty Cobb Roadster is outfitted with a lovely red leather Troxel with metal trim.


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## Freqman1 (Aug 18, 2019)

Well it looks like @Buddyroe has a couple choices for his $2500!


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## Buddyroe (Aug 18, 2019)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Here is one, I have another but I can't locate it.
> 
> View attachment 1048837View attachment 1048838
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




That is absolutely amazing! I have been looking at every tricycle for sale in the last 4 years thinking I could find one that way - but never did. Good to know my search was not a waste.

Is it a Troxel?


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## Buddyroe (Aug 18, 2019)

Jesse McCauley said:


> View attachment 1049211
> 
> I have a number of very nice pre 1920 juvenile bicycles.
> 
> ...




That is super freaking cool. I love it. But, my understanding was that the were made in the 20's, not pre-1920. Though, I'm far from an expert.

OK. I just got a text from the person who told me no pre-1920 juvenile bikes exist, and he said he told me "boys verified pre-1920". Who knows. Either way, I want to get it back together and leave it for future generations to enjoy.


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## Buddyroe (Aug 18, 2019)

Here's a great example I stumbled across once doing a google search. Never could locate the tricycle though.


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## Freqman1 (Aug 18, 2019)

Great to hear your search paid off. $2500 for one of those seats has to be a new record for one of those. When you don't let money stand in your way things come easier! V/r Shawn


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## Buddyroe (Aug 18, 2019)

fat tire trader said:


> What parts have you collected for this bike that have cost so much money? I still have an extra pair of 20" NOS single tube tires.




I'm probably over-estimating, but I really don't want to add it up because I would be sick! 

I've got a ton of money in seats. I have bought 6 and given away 2 of them. I also paid a guy $500 for a seat and a tool pouch and it was total junk when I got it - worthless. He said he would give me my money back, but never replied back to me. And yes I bought it from someone on the the CABE.

I paid big money for some juvenile rat trap pedals because they were the only ones I had ever come across.  I've bought as many 28 hole ND hubs as I could find. I also wanted a chain that had "61" stamped in the diamond because that's what the old ragged chain left dangling on the bicycle had. I only came across one so I bought it. Probably WAY over paid, but what are you going to do....wait for the next one to come along?

I also got ripped off on some wheels. I was told they were NOS - yea right! Not only were they not NOS, they had 24 holes (was told 28).

I could go on and on. I can't resist buying something that I think is correct - and 90% of the time I wind up disappointed when I get it. It's a great feeling though when you open that box and you have something amazing that works. Oh, I just remembered all the grips I've bought also.

But just so you know, I don't have any expensive hobbies and this little bike is special to me. I feel like I was meant to preserve it.

Will you please PM me a picture of the tires you have and a price? I have some tires, but I'm not super crazy about them (and I won't even tell you how much I paid for them - but they are nice NOS tires).


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## Buddyroe (Aug 19, 2019)

Here are some, but not all of the parts I have collected.















































































+15


















1919 IJ Boy Scout Midget Parts



__ Buddyroe
__ Aug 19, 2019
__ 24



						Here are some, but not all of the parts I have collected.


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## Buddyroe (Aug 19, 2019)

I think that the seat I'm looking for would have a side profile similar to one of these adult seats. Notice in the picture I included from the IJ catalog that the seat looks much thinner than the seats I currently have and everyone is offering. Also, notice that the seat does not look to be rounded at the back corners, but more squared off. Just looks more like a longer, less rounded seat than anything I've ever actually seen. Then again, how would we ever know what a Troxel No. 36 C.C. seat actually looks like? It's not like there's one left in the box somewhere to compare it.

Does anyone have a clue what the C.C. might stand for?


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## Buddyroe (Aug 19, 2019)

Here's another adult example. Just looking at these seats, it seems like the way they built them changed somewhere in the late teens or early 20s. It seems like the older ones were built using a piece of plywood and 2 pieces of leather. The leather was sewn together around the plywood and the seam seems to be vertical in orientation. This created sort of the lip you see around the back portion of this seat (and the ones above). But, at some point, I guess technology allowed the manufacturers to stamp metal easily and they could create a metal frame. This created a more rounded and contoured seat. Since the metal also had sides, now the seam was below the metal and was more horizontal. This stamped metal, with its sides, made the seat appear much thicker than the earlier seats. 

All of this is just my guess from studying these seats for the last few years.

I wish someone out there really understood these seats and how they were built and could tell me exactly what is in that picture from the catalog!


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## ccmerz (Aug 19, 2019)

I say this is the one..... circa '20


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## hoofhearted (Aug 19, 2019)

@bike
@Buddyroe

*Leather … New Old Stock … Never Bolted Together ... Longest Vortex Springs … @bike*


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## Jesse McCauley (Aug 19, 2019)

$2500 big ones 


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## hoofhearted (Aug 19, 2019)

*And so, Jesse … where the fiddle-dee-dee is @bike ?*

*Fast asleep with his arm on the tiller ? …………… Yoo-Hoo … bike .. .. Yoo-Hoo…..
Worst thing I can say about this saddle is  The Dust …...*


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## hoofhearted (Aug 19, 2019)

*Knock-Knock …..*

*Who's There ??*

*Saddle.*

*Saddle Who ??*

*Saddle - Up and ride back to Entry #25 ………………...*

*Please Stare At The Following While You Wait …. *

*






*


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## danfitz1 (Aug 20, 2019)

This is the 4th time it's been posted for $245 OBO with no takers yet......
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=143354523838


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## fat tire trader (Aug 20, 2019)

This picture shows the original saddle on my 20" Iver from about 1930 and a replacement saddle that I found for it.


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## partsguy (Aug 20, 2019)

$2500 for a bicycle seat? Madness. Wish I had that money issue!


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## Buddyroe (Aug 22, 2019)

All - I wanted to update this thread and tell everyone that I think I've found my seat. It is awesome. I feel like a kid on Christmas day (the best Christmas ever!). I will post some pictures later. It appears to be NOS but still has a couple of issues. I was hesitant on most seats posted here because they didn't have Troxel on the little flap (as I know almost all Troxel seats between 1915 and 1920 that I've ever seen have) or they appeared to be a later seat than 1919 (I based what I thought a 1919 seat would look like on what other verified seats of that time frame looked like). I really feel that what most people have posted on this thread are late 20s to late 30s. Awesome and amazing seats, I loved seeing them and would LOVE to own them -  but not quite what I was looking for. This is the first juvenile seat I have ever seen like this. It also clearly has Troxel stamped on the flaps, and Troxel didn't exactly make a bunch of different juvenile models during that time. I'm 99% sure this the same seat that was on this bike in 1919 when a happy little boy rode it the for the first time on Christmas morning.

Now there is a couple issues with this little seat, even though I don't think it was ever used. It is very dirty and needs to be cleaned and hopefully oiled somehow. And the carriage is pretty rusty. It looks like it probably sat in a pile of seats or other parts in a warehouse or outbuilding for quite a while. Something was pressing against the front of the frame and pushed it over to the side into one of the flaps. I REALLY do not want to attempt to push it back myself (or unscrew it to move it back). I am hoping to find someone who is an expert on these seats who can possibly take it apart for me, clean it up, get the leather treated somehow and get the carriage looking good, but not new. If you know anyone, please give me their name or direct them to me. I would really appreciate it.

Hopefully this thread will serve as a place for those in the future looking for an extremely rare and hard to find juvenile seat to come "shopping". I was shocked how many seats are actually out there (if someone is willing to spend some money! haha).

EDIT: Another thing about this seat that lead me to believe it is much older than the seats posted in this thread is that it is made of wood and has actual leather stitched to the bottom. This is the first one I have seen like that. Maybe some of you have seen one.


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## locomotion (Aug 24, 2019)

hoofhearted said:


> @bike
> @Buddyroe
> 
> *Leather … New Old Stock … Never Bolted Together ... Longest Vortex Springs … @bike*
> ...






danfitz1 said:


> This is the 4th time it's been posted for $245 OBO with no takers yet......
> http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=143354523838
> 
> View attachment 1050227




I have a juvenile seat with those distinctive seat springs with an original leather top
mine is stamped Rollfast


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## locomotion (Aug 24, 2019)

Buddyroe said:


> I want this seat BAD!!
> 
> View attachment 1048659




I still have (1) example of this seat
unfortunately mine is far from NOS, and it has a red leather top.
does have the Troxel seat stamp on both sides, like it should !!!
I have owned (3) seats like this with Troxel side stamps and all 3 had a red leather top, never seen this seat in brown or black top with a stamp

Please share a picture of your NOS seat, would like to see it
Here are the pics of mine, along with my Rollfast seat from the previous post


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## Jesse McCauley (Aug 25, 2019)

Congrats on finishing the parts search, since I mentioned it before I start a thread devoted to it- ca. 1898 Boys Cupid 











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## Freqman1 (Aug 25, 2019)

So to the guy who said that yours was the only pre ‘20 juvenile bike to exist-quit listening to him! Obviously he knows little about bikes. I’ve seen more than a handful of pre ‘20 juvenile bikes and this is not even an area I pay a lot of attention to. Just say’n


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## locomotion (Aug 25, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> So to the guy who said that yours was the only pre ‘20 juvenile bike to exist-quit listening to him! Obviously he knows little about bikes. I’ve seen more than a handful of pre ‘20 juvenile bikes and this is not even an area I pay a lot of attention to. Just say’n




I think he might be referring to pre-1920's Iver Johnson juvenile bikes ..... obviously everyone have seen other pre-1920 juvenile bikes, plenty of those around !!!


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## hoofhearted (Aug 25, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> So to the guy who said that yours was the only pre ‘20 juvenile bike to exist-quit listening to him! Obviously he knows little about bikes. I’ve seen more than a handful of pre ‘20 juvenile bikes and this is not even an area I pay a lot of attention to. Just say’n




===================================================

*Still being built ... 1917, 20-inch wheel H-D Racer.  *

*Original frame / fork  .. drilled at Davis factory for H-D badge.*

*Have 36 spoke, front and rear wooden wheels ...
finished in orange shellac … with NOS Chain Treads.
Incorrect metal clads are shown in foto.*

*Correct 20-T Davis-Built ring.*

*Authentic ... minty H-D Badge.  *

*Frame has NO numbers ... it's rare to find a H-D or
a Davis juvi that has numbers stamped.*

*Only modded part is the handle bar ... re-bent from
a 5/8-inch O.D. Schineer Bar.  Did the work m'self.
Perfecto.  Made numerous bending patterns of 
sheet aluminum. No kinks .. no creases.*

*So how do i know it's a first-year frame ?*

*The early ones ... '17 and '18 were lugged frames
with main tubes of 7/8-inch tubing.  Later juvi frames
… '18 thru '21 had no lugging … did have 1-inch O.D. tubing.*

*..... patric*






















*…...….……...Below Are 1919 thru 1921Davis / H-D Juvies ....*


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## Buddyroe (Aug 26, 2019)

hoofhearted said:


> ===================================================
> 
> *Still being built ... 1917, 20-inch wheel H-D Racer.  *
> 
> ...




Man, that is totally awesome. You just don't know how lucky you are to have a real example, as well as a color photograph to use as an example. I've searched the web and catalogs trying to find a picture of this IJ Boy Scout Midget to use as a guide - I've never found anything but the B&W photo in the catalog.


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## hoofhearted (Aug 26, 2019)

*Carl … thank you for those kind words. 
Found a CABE Thread -- Iver Johnson Boy Scout bikes --
right here on the CABE … don't know how to cut and 
glue .. but you can use the CABE SEARCH feature and 
possibly get some usable info.*

*Years and years ago .. one of my painting instructors 
shared the concept of the ''visual vocabulary''.  Nothing 
more than magazine snippets of features of peeps .. places .. 
and objects that one hoped to learn to paint.  *

*Also taught was the concept of ''seeing'' vs ''looking''.*

*The Fine Arts Department at Wright State University in the 
mid-60's taught ''painting'' … but it was really ''photo-realism''.*

*Your mention of a ''color photograph'' … and me ''being lucky 
to have it'' -- is the result of me creating my own luck.*

*I still use my visual vocabulary .. but these days it's in my laptop.*

….. patric


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## Jesse McCauley (Aug 26, 2019)

hoofhearted said:


> *Carl … thank you for those kind words.
> Found a CABE Thread -- Iver Johnson Boy Scout bikes --
> right here on the CABE … don't know how to cut and
> glue .. but you can use the CABE SEARCH feature and
> ...




This is def a field where you make your own luck by due diligence, you are def a king among men when it comes to due diligence!


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## hoofhearted (Aug 26, 2019)

Jesse McCauley said:


> This is def a field where you make your own luck by due diligence,
> you are def a king among men when it comes to due diligence!



========================================================

Thank You, Jesse !!

….. patric


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## razinhellcustomz (Aug 26, 2019)

Jesse McCauley said:


> View attachment 1049211
> 
> I have a number of very nice pre 1920 juvenile bicycles.
> 
> ...



Neat bike!! Iv'e never sen one of these before. Thanks for sharing. Ride On. Razin.


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## razinhellcustomz (Aug 26, 2019)

Buddyroe said:


> I'm probably over-estimating, but I really don't want to add it up because I would be sick!
> 
> I've got a ton of money in seats. I have bought 6 and given away 2 of them. I also paid a guy $500 for a seat and a tool pouch and it was total junk when I got it - worthless. He said he would give me my money back, but never replied back to me. And yes I bought it from someone on the the CABE.
> 
> ...



That's what happens when some peoples kids ride the short bus. They don't know the difference between 24 and 28. Oh Well. Good luck getting that little Iver together. Be sure and keep us posted with some pix. Razin.


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