# Hercules Kestrel?



## Oilit

I have $175.00 in this bike, which is more than I would usually put in an old English 3 speed, but this one has some features I haven't seen before. From what I've found on the internet, I think it's a Hercules Kestrel, and the date on the hub is 1951. It needs a lot of detail work, but I did test ride it. Some of these parts aren't original (the brake levers don't match and the cables look rigged) and some more I'm not sure about, but anything you know I'll be interested to hear! Thanks and enjoy!


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## wrongway

That must have been a Road Bike with drop handlebars. I have questions, too! Are those Bluemel plastic fenders? Is that chain ring broke? That's a very unique and interesting bike! I like it. Wish it were mine. How does it ride?


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## Oilit

wrongway said:


> That must have been a Road Bike with drop handlebars. I have questions, too! Are those Bluemel plastic fenders? Is that chain ring broke? That's a very unique and interesting bike! I like it. Wish it were mine. How does it ride?



The only catalog picture I could find showed drop handlebars, so you could be right, although I'm wondering if upright bars were an option. And yes, the chain ring is cracked where it bolts to the spider. The fenders are steel, judging by the rust spots, but the wire fender stays look like aluminum. I haven't ridden it since I got it home, the crank bearings feel good but both both cranks are loose on the shaft, so it needs a couple of new cotter pins at the least!


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## wrongway

Three speed Road Bikes are becoming my big draw these days. (I hope to buy one someday) I was briefly looking over some images of the Hercules Kestrel. Some of them did have upright bars and were labeled as Tourist models, but they had chain guards. Can you tell if yours had one? The big clue might be in that detachable chain ring. They say that makes a bike a true Clubman's machine.


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## Oilit

wrongway said:


> Three speed Road Bikes are becoming my big draw these days. (I hope to buy one someday) I was briefly looking over some images of the Hercules Kestrel. Some of them did have upright bars and were labeled as Tourist models, but they had chain guards. Can you tell if yours had one? The big clue might be in that detachable chain ring. They say that makes a bike a true Clubman's machine.



I haven't noticed any marks from clamps on the frame, but I hadn't thought to look. I'll check when I get home. And you're right, that chain ring was the first thing to catch my eye!


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## dnc1

There were 2 1951 Kestrel models with 531 frames, one in ruby red and one in flamboyant green. Is yours black or green?


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## dnc1

There was also a Kestrel Lightweight Tourist model in black with cream head tube with a 531 frame .


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## RidgeWalker

I would think those brakes are original.  Certainly the pads are not.  And that cable treatment with the clamp was pretty standard when you couldn't find the original double ended brake cable in the right length.  The 3-speed hub strikes me as odd. This bike would have been pre-Raleigh, I think, and I would have thought it would have had a Hercules rear hub and shifter, not Sturmey.  I don't remember that kind of oil cap on Sturmey hubs.  Could it have been a single speed that someone later made a 3-speed?  Interesting bike.


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## Oilit

dnc1 said:


> There were 2 1951 Kestrel models with 531 frames, one in ruby red and one in flamboyant green. Is yours black or green?



The color in the pictures is true to the color I see, at least on my computer. It looks black.


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## dnc1

@RidgeWalker is correct.
1951 models had a Hercules 3-speed hub, or a 3-speed "Herailleur" gear (that's not a typo); both operated by a Hercules "Synchro-Switch" shifter.


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## Oilit

RidgeWalker said:


> I would think those brakes are original.  Certainly the pads are not.  And that cable treatment with the clamp was pretty standard when you couldn't find the original double ended brake cable in the right length.  The 3-speed hub strikes me as odd. This bike would have been pre-Raleigh, I think, and I would have thought it would have had a Hercules rear hub and shifter, not Sturmey.  I don't remember that kind of oil cap on Sturmey hubs.  Could it have been a single speed that someone later made a 3-speed?  Interesting bike.



I wondered about the hub myself. The only other place I've seen that type of oil fitting is the swing arm on a Norton Commando, and it evidently takes a special gun to pump oil in. On the other hand, it probably keeps the oil from dripping onto the rim when it's turned down. I don't know how to date a Hercules from the serial number, so the hub is all I've got to go on. But the badge says "Birmingham", so that makes me think this one dates before the merger with Raleigh.


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## Oilit

dnc1 said:


> @RidgeWalker is correct.
> 1951 models had a Hercules 3-speed hub, or a 3-speed "Herailleur" gear (that's not a typo); both operated by a Hercules "Synchro-Switch" shifter.



Thanks for the information! I knew there would be someone on here who knew about these bikes!


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## dnc1

Not really, but I have a friend who is a real Hercules enthusiast.
If you can find a frame number I'll contact him to see if he could date it more accurately, I don't think you can rely on the SA hub date.


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## Oilit

So if the hubs been replaced, what's the next best bet to determine the year?


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## Oilit

dnc1 said:


> Not really, but I have a friend who is a real Hercules enthusiast.
> If you can find a frame number I'll contact him to see if he could date it more accurately, I don't think you can rely on the SA hub date.



I'll check the serial number tonight. The cable in the picture hides the last digit.


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## dnc1

Frame number, badge style, colour scheme, components.
Like I said, if you can find a frame number I'll contact my friend and see what he thinks.
 I can't remember quite how many Hercules's he has, not sure he knows how many lol, but they're his personal favourites.


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## RidgeWalker

Wikipedia indicates Hercules sold to TI in 1946.  
So the hub is still a mystery to me, I don't know one way or the other.  Still think it is an interesting bike though.  Looks like the 50 year guarantee has expired...


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## Oilit

dnc1 said:


> Frame number, badge style, colour scheme, components.
> Like I said, if you can find a frame number I'll contact my friend and see what he thinks.
> I can't remember quite how many Hercules's he has, not sure he knows how many lol, but they're his personal favourites.



I looked the frame over this morning, and the number on the seat post lug is the only one I see. The complete number is "FM 7071". I've never seen a serial number list for Hercules, so anything you can find out will be news to me. Thanks!


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## dnc1

I'll get in touch with my friend tomorrow, if he can help, I'll let you know anything when he gets back to me.


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## bulldog1935

found this thread with a '51 Kestrel
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/1951-hercules-kestrel-what-now.177119/


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## 3-speeder

What a cool bike! That Dunlop saddle is really nice. Never seen an oil port like that on a SA hub either. I've only seen that type on the top of a bottom bracket.


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## bulldog1935

the saddle is noteworthy at least, and way cool.
I think it's certain the frame is a Kestrel, but when searching for more photos/links googled Hercules Club Racer, a neat googlebooks reference to a 1932 Hercules Empire popped up, which also mentioned the Dunlop saddle model H30.
Unfortunately, can't get the link to transfer

what the link said was that Arthur Humbles set his 1932 endurance record on Hercules Empire, and had added SA hub to the bike.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Humbles


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## dnc1

That's a fairly standard  Dunlop 'Drilastic' saddle, pretty similar to a modern Brooks 'Cambium' model in the sense that it's made from fabric bonded with rubber. They made sporty models too, this is much more of a roadster design.
They were also popular on 'trials' motorcycles in the 40's and 50's.


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## Oilit

I was on the internet yesterday and ran across the website for the Veteran-Cycle Club Library - http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/index.php?action=asearch&searchtext=H&tpage=3&items=64 - which has a good selection of Hercules catalogs, including one from 1951. It looks like the round head badge had been replaced by a shield style by 1951, so @RidgeWalker and @dnc1  are right about the rear hub, it's a replacement. The 1949 catalog has a good picture of a Kestrel with an odd-looking three speed derailleur set up, but it also shows a round head badge and the Kestrel name on the seat tube. I took another look at this bike, and there was something on the seat tube, but it's so worn or faded that I can't read it. I'm going to try gently cleaning it, but it looks like it wouldn't be hard to take off anything that's left, along with the dirt. Has anybody got any ideas?


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## dnc1

I've emailed my friend Ian, I'll let you know what he thinks.
I thoroughly recommend the V-CC online library if you're researching British cycles.
Worth joining too, members get 2 great publications (one 4 times a year, the other 3 times a year), you'll occasionally get to see my ugly mug featured also, out on many rides with the Oxford section.
They have sections based in Colorado and New England on your side of the pond.
The Online Bicycle Museum site is also very good for reference and also an interesting read.


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## dnc1

Hi @Oilit,
Ian got back to me today.
Unfortunately there is no current database of Hercules frame numbers extant, this is going to be one of his research projects for the not too distant future,  so hopefully one day!
According to him however that round head badge was in use up to and including 1949 only, being supplanted by the green,  shield-shaped head badge.
So you can confidently date it no later than 1949. The rear wheel is definitely non-original.
If you can clean up that image on the frame tube and photograph it he would be interested to see it.
Hope that's good news.


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## Oilit

dnc1 said:


> Hi @Oilit,
> Ian got back to me today.
> Unfortunately there is no current database of Hercules frame numbers extant, this is going to be one of his research projects for the not too distant future,  so hopefully one day!
> According to him however that round head badge was in use up to and including 1949 only, being supplanted by the green,  shield-shaped head badge.
> So you can confidently date it no later than 1949. The rear wheel is definitely non-original.
> If you can clean up that image on the frame tube and photograph it he would be interested to see it.
> Hope that's good news.



@dnc1, thanks and tell Ian thanks for me too! I cleaned the seat tube as much as I dared and it's still not easy to read, but if you get the light just right it does say "Kestrel". I'll see if I can get a picture.


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## Oilit

dnc1 said:


> Hi @Oilit,
> Ian got back to me today.
> Unfortunately there is no current database of Hercules frame numbers extant, this is going to be one of his research projects for the not too distant future,  so hopefully one day!
> According to him however that round head badge was in use up to and including 1949 only, being supplanted by the green,  shield-shaped head badge.
> So you can confidently date it no later than 1949. The rear wheel is definitely non-original.
> If you can clean up that image on the frame tube and photograph it he would be interested to see it.
> Hope that's good news.



And looking at the catalogs, 1938 shows a Kestrel, but it doesn't mention Reynolds 531 and the pictures don't show the two-piece chain ring. And if Hercules built bicycles during the war, they would probably have been basic models. So it sounds like we can say between 1946-1949, which is a lot closer range than I had to start with!


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## Oilit

Faded pretty bad, but then again after 70 years...


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## bulldog1935

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/reynolds-tubing-history.html
Peter Underwood's quote
_The earliest 531 transfer I've yet found.  Certainly used pre-war, maybe post-war, too.  
_
Also according to Peter, if the word Frame is on the early 531 decals, it means main triangle only - if not, 531 for all tubes


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## Oilit

bulldog1935 said:


> http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/reynolds-tubing-history.html
> Peter Underwood's quote
> _The earliest 531 transfer I've yet found.  Certainly used pre-war, maybe post-war, too.
> _
> Also according to Peter, if the word Frame is on the early 531 decals, it means main triangle only - if not, 531 for all tubes



Looking at Mr. Underwood's picture, it strikes me that the font on the numbers is a little different - on this transfer the numbers look "fatter", with less space between them. But I checked and the overall dimensions are the same. Maybe an early post-war variation?


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## Oilit

It's been three years since I first posted this bike, but another one popped up on Ebay and I went and picked it up last weekend. This one has lost a lot of parts, there's no seat or pedals, the handlebar and stem are not original, and the wheels are both from old Schwinns - but the frame, fork and chainwheel look original. I've wondered about the fork on the first Kestrel I picked up, the ones I see on-line have forks with forged ends while the fork on mine looked like it came off a Hercules Tourist, which was their basic utility 3-speed in the '50's. But most of the Kestrels on-line are from the '50's, mine seems to have been built in the early post-war period, so if they were just starting back up it's possible that they were using a different design. The Veteran-Cycle Club on-line library has catalogs from 1939 and 1949 but nothing from the immediate post-war years. But this one has a fork with forged ends and the serial numbers are only 5 numbers apart, so now I'm pretty certain that the fork on the first one had been replaced. But between these two, I should be able to build up a pretty complete and correct example, and this one even has a complete head-badge. I think the center section of these badges is celluloid, the same stuff that the old movies were shot on. From what I've read on-line, celluloid degrades over time and most of these badges turn up with the center section missing chunks or completely gone, this one is cracked, but it's all there. I've posted the 1939 catalog page (for comparison), some of the pictures from the Ebay listing and a few from Union Station in Chicago, where I met the seller to pick up the bike. I may post some better pictures when I have some and as always, if you know something that would help fill out the picture on these bikes, feel free to post, I'd be glad to hear from you.


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## SirMike1983

The frames on these look at first glance a lot like a basic sports-type model, but are something better They use a partial frame of 531 tubes, have pencil seat stays, fancier lugs, and better front fork ends rather than the pinched forks (called "fork tips" in the ads). They tend to "slip under the radar" many times because they look so much at first like a common sports model.

The badge centers are indeed fragile and are often broken. 

Sometimes they turn up with celluloid-covered handlebars, which are often damaged.

The white steel fenders were a basic option, though another popular option was to upgrade to celluloid fenders that almost always are cracked or broken. 

The only downside is that the 26 wheel - 21 inch frame size tends to be a bit small for most adult male riders.

The pump is often missing or damaged, like so many other English bikes.

The 26 x 1 1/4 wheel can throw people off. Don't buy tires until you have a close look at the wheels. Sometimes people swap these to 26 x 1 3/8, but a 26 x 1 1/4 is going to need different tires from the usual.


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## Oilit

@SirMike1983, you may have hit on something regarding celluloid fenders. In the Veteran-Cycle Club's online library, the 1949 catalog shows a Kestrel with celluloid fenders, and the attachment at the rear brake is completely different to the steel fenders. If this bike originally had celluloid fenders, that may explain why they were long gone by the time I got it. I also noticed that the chain ring design had been changed slightly between the two bikes, even though the serials were only 5 numbers apart. Maybe too many were cracking and they had to brace it a little?


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## schwinnderella

For what it's worth, here is my Hercules Kestral Super Club. I believe it originally had drop bars that were probably changed by the dealer at the time of purchase. I think it is a 1950 model give or take a year. I have done nothing to it and it is as I purchased it about 20 years ago.


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## Oilit

schwinnderella said:


> For what it's worth, here is my Hercules Kestral Super Club. I believe it originally had drop bars that were probably changed by the dealer at the time of purchase. I think it is a 1950 model give or take a year. I have done nothing to it and it is as I purchased it about 20 years ago.
> View attachment 1559920
> 
> View attachment 1559921
> 
> View attachment 1559922
> 
> View attachment 1559923
> 
> View attachment 1559924
> 
> View attachment 1559925



It looks like yours has the same chain ring as the one I just got, and a nice set of celluloid fenders too, but it's got a 23" frame instead of 21" and the frame lugs are completely different. It's interesting to see how the specifications changed over time, what kind of rims does yours have? And does it have a Hercules rear hub? Thanks for posting!


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## schwinnderella

Oilit said:


> It looks like yours has the same chain ring as the one I just got, and a nice set of celluloid fenders too, but it's got a 23" frame instead of 21" and the frame lugs are completely different. It's interesting to see how the specifications changed over time, what kind of rims does yours have? And does it have a Hercules rear hub? Thanks for posting!



Mine does have the Hercules rear 3 speed hub and if I recall correctly the same rims as you picture on the first bike posted.


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## Oilit

schwinnderella said:


> Mine does have the Hercules rear 3 speed hub and if I recall correctly the same rims as you picture on the first bike posted.



You may be able to date your bike from the hub if it's original. Hercules came out with their hubs after WWII, marked A Type 6 for 1946, A Type 7 for 1947 and on through A Type 1 in 1951. 1952 was B Type 2, then on through B Type 6 in 1956. According to Grace's Guide, Tube Investments made 1,250 employees of British Cycle Corporation redundant in 1956, and "many of the workers were from Hercules factories". One result was production of Hercules and Brampton hubs seems to have ended after 1956. There's an in-depth article on Hercules and Brampton hubs posted on the Veteran-Cycle Club online library, but it's copyrighted and you have to be a V-C C member to log into the library.





						Hercules Cycle and Motor Co - Graces Guide
					






					gracesguide.co.uk


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## Schwinny

As far as parts go for these old Club bikes, the place to look is not necessarily the Hercules Catalogs, but the Phillips catalogs. Thats where you may find the fork and a lot of the other parts that make up nearly all Birmingham bikes. Hercules did make their own frames by the thousands but they helped keep Phillips in business as they were mainly a parts and kits company until after the war.
Also interesting is that Phillips was a "jobber" for many German parts.
You can also tell when 531 was introduced in bicycle parts and at what market level by skipping between the early catalogs.
Speaking of those "mud guard" hangars, those are the same as the ones on my bike that were holding Alum fenders and also used on celluloid. Ive seen them on many steel fenders also. A simple way to use the same fender on different frame sizes.
H.Lloyd website has a 531 decal timeline and explanation page also.


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## Oilit

Schwinny said:


> As far as parts go for these old Club bikes, the place to look is not necessarily the Hercules Catalogs, but the Phillips catalogs. Thats where you may find the fork and a lot of the other parts that make up nearly all Birmingham bikes. Hercules did make their own frames by the thousands but they helped keep Phillips in business as they were mainly a parts and kits company until after the war.
> Also interesting is that Phillips was a "jobber" for many German parts.
> You can also tell when 531 was introduced in bicycle parts and at what market level by skipping between the early catalogs.
> Speaking of those "mud guard" hangars, those are the same as the ones on my bike that were holding Alum fenders and also used on celluloid. Ive seen them on many steel fenders also. A simple way to use the same fender on different frame sizes.
> H.Lloyd website has a 531 decal timeline and explanation page also.



Interesting! I've noticed that a lot of the Birmingham bikes have a family resemblance, but the role of Phillips has always been kind of a mystery to me. There doesn't seem to be much information about their bikes, but if they were mainly supplying parts that would make sense.


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## Schwinny

Oilit said:


> Interesting! I've noticed that a lot of the Birmingham bikes have a family resemblance, but the role of Phillips has always been kind of a mystery to me. There doesn't seem to be much information about their bikes, but if they were mainly supplying parts that would make sense.



Yeah, if you look through the 39' Phillips Catalog there are still nothing but parts. Frames also, but no wheels, chains, tires, etc. Its interesting to see what is considered the "Raleigh" standard coin roll crown fork and chainguard in the Phillips catalog as far back as 1930. Raleigh just took a liking to them and those Phillips parts turned into a Raleigh trademark of sorts. Going through the catalogs, you see a lot of parts that appear on many old bikes of the day that weren't labeled Phillips.
When Englands wheel companies were consolidated in the 50's-60's, those parts just became Raleigh parts.

I think its is kind of like the bike company "Specialized"
They were parts only at first, then started making bikes.

Also something I found interesting is that Phillips was sued by the Crown, (English government) after the first WW for importing jobber parts from Germany during the war when there was a ban on German goods.
Going further, one can glean that many Phillips parts were made for them in Germany and then finished and labeled in England.
I suspected this of a couple sets of pedals I have that are exact in many ways but marked differently as German or Phillips.


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## dnc1

Schwinny said:


> Yeah, if you look through the 39' Phillips Catalog there are still nothing but parts. Frames also, but no wheels, chains, tires, etc. Its interesting to see what is considered the "Raleigh" standard coin roll crown fork and chainguard in the Phillips catalog as far back as 1930. Raleigh just took a liking to them and those Phillips parts turned into a Raleigh trademark of sorts. Going through the catalogs, you see a lot of parts that appear on many old bikes of the day that weren't labeled Phillips.
> When Englands wheel companies were consolidated in the 50's-60's, those parts just became Raleigh parts.
> 
> I think its is kind of like the bike company "Specialized"
> They were parts only at first, then started making bikes.
> 
> Also something I found interesting is that Phillips was sued by the Crown, (English government) after the first WW for importing jobber parts from Germany during the war when there was a ban on German goods.
> Going further, one can glean that many Phillips parts were made for them in Germany and then finished and labeled in England.
> I suspected this of a couple sets of pedals I have that are exact in many ways but marked differently as German or Phillips.



While you are correct re. 'Phillips' role as a spare parts and upgrades supplier, you're very wrong re. the 'Raleigh' fork crown design (see my other post in the '1939 Ladies Hercules ' thread).
The 'Phillips' catalogues you reference are aimed at the public, as spares and upgrades/replacements catalogues and for retailers, ie. your LBS; they are not wholesale catalogues aimed at other manufacturers buying in parts.


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## Oilit

So here's another example of that style fork, on a 195? "Camro" that was on Facebook Marketplace. Notice how wide the crown tube is, was this another version built by someone else?


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## Schwinny

Nice one. Is that a thistle on the head badge?
its got a 4 race headset and notice the fish tail lugs. That ages it to at least the 40's I think.
That might be a 531 decal under the seat by the jockey wheel. That would be Very interesting sporting that fork.

Yeah, all we can really do is speculate on the reasonings of the past. Especially in such a crowded market as the English bike market. Following the money will get us the closest.


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## dnc1

Wow! That's a  new one one on me.
Here's the image from the 1939 'Phillips' fitments catalogue of their 'R Type' fork.....





It does look subtly different in the centre of the Crown and that 'Camro' design definitely looks wider than any others I've seen.
Can't find any information on 'Camro' but a clue may be the Scottish thistle on the headbadge?


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## SirMike1983

The joints and finishing on that thimble fork look fairly crude compared to a stock Raleigh or Hercules fork.


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## Oilit

Schwinny said:


> Nice one. Is that a thistle on the head badge?
> its got a 4 race headset and notice the fish tail lugs. That ages it to at least the 40's I think.
> That might be a 531 decal under the seat by the jockey wheel. That would be Very interesting sporting that fork.
> 
> Yeah, all we can really do is speculate on the reasonings of the past. Especially in such a crowded market as the English bike market. Following the money will get us the closest.



A 531 decal would be something, but the only pictures I have are what was in the listing, and none of them show the decal any better. I hadn't thought about the thistle, but now that you mention it, the head badge looks like there could be an "SC" on the left part of the fragment opposite "LAND", so maybe Scotland instead of England? I was tempted to go look at this bike, but it was in New Jersey if I recall, and it sold while I was still considering. And it's still the only one I've seen.


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## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> The joints and finishing on that thimble fork look fairly crude compared to a stock Raleigh or Hercules fork.



It almost looks like the legs are mounted into lugs on the bottom of the tube. I should have gone to see this bike, or at least got some better pictures. But I can't buy them all, or even find space to store them!


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## Schwinny

If that decal under the seat is this one:



It would put the frame in the early-mid 30's according to H.Lloyd. Those look to be 590 ISO tires so if it is earlier, probably later rims and three speed. Appropriate John Bull handgrips... The kind of bike I woulda bought, and will again one day.
No Camro decal stuff on H.Lloyd
I'm kinda stuck on old British bikes for now. I flipped the bars on my old Armstrong and its real comfortable to ride now.
I wonder how many miles it had on it before resurrection. it has at least 30 on it now.
And more today.... Clear skies and 65.
Gotta enjoy it while I can.


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