# New Guy, need a hand indentifying pre-33 bicycle!



## circa1939

Hello.  I've been hitting the cabe here and there and decided to join, always loved old bicycles pre-WWII.

Well, here's what I have here,...(mind you i'm just learning about pre-3 bikes, so sorry if I use the wrong terms, etc.)

I'm trying to identify the cycle I bought and really need some good solid info and help from the knowledgable fellows here.  I know it isn't much to go on, but hopefully  I can get an idea of what I have.

I bought a great piece earlier today at the Trexlertown Swap Meet here in PA.  I have been wanting to get myself a nice little old bicycle for a while now.

The badge was not there but the two small rivets are still there.  

The paint is just a slopppy household paint, done,..well who knows when it was done actually,..it looks pretty old.  However underneth (as some of this blue paint is flaking off) is what appears to be a gloss black laquer finish.  
The crank and sprocket after cleaning off some of the old grease reads, "Fauber Special".  The seat reads "Troxel". and the tires are "Gillette" made in USA.

Lastly, it has wooden rims.

Here are some photos.
Thanks a million in advance, as it is greatly appreciated!


----------



## circa1939

*More photos...*


----------



## Andrew Gorman

The block chain and the nice quality cranks make me think the bike is earlier (pre-1910s) than later. The diamond profile of the cranks could narrow the field some more.  Nice bike!


----------



## circa1939

Thank you very much for the info,....sounds like a good start!

I decided to take some enamel reducer to it with a rag.  That old blue paint just came off all over!  Beneath that thick blue gob of paint all over it, is what looks to be black laquer with some blue accents outlined/pinstriped with gold.  Very interesting!  Like uncovering history!


----------



## pelletman

preserve,  don't restore!


----------



## circa1939

pelletman said:


> preserve,  don't restore!




That's the idea.  

What's on there now, that blue that you see in the photos is a brush job with old paint, you can see it, but you could see the gold that is the pinstrip showing through from underneath, so that's why i took some auto paint reducer to that old paint that's covering the original paintjob underneath, and started to see if the paint is good and worth preserving or completely gone.  So far, it looks pretty good!

Do you have any info that might be helpful to me with IDing this bike by chance?

So far on the paint job, its black, with a medium blue color accents outlined with a gold pinstripe.  hopefully more to come!


----------



## ejlwheels

Assuming the block chain, pedals, stem and handlebars are original to the bike, they would date it to around 1900.  The is a bike with nearly identical stem and handlebars on page 49 of the book "The American Bicycle" that is dated 1897.


----------



## circa1939

ejlwheels said:


> Assuming the block chain, pedals, stem and handlebars are original to the bike, they would date it to around 1900.  The is a bike with nearly identical stem and handlebars on page 49 of the book "The American Bicycle" that is dated 1897.




Thanks so much for the infomation.  

I'l have to seek out a copy of, The American Bicycle, Thanks!

I'm trying to see if there's any kind of outline that can be seen, but there doens't seem to be.  Anyone know if there is a way to get the little bit of the outline there might be to show up by using any kind of chemicals, or light?  Infrared,..black light??  Anything??

One last thing, I'm a bit short on the lingo of technical terms, adn thus far, I've learned that i have a "block chain", however, are there any other technical names of distinct items that are on this bike, such as the stem?  I was briefly told that type was called something specifically, but I cannot recall what it was??

thanks!!


----------



## ejlwheels

I checked out the book from my local library.
That is just one book.  There are many others.

You can't even say that a bike pictured in a book is "accurate" since it may have been changed by someone along the way.  Even if it is a period photo, the components may be altered or repaired by the owner.  There were 3000 makers in 1897, so sometimes the best you can do is assemble pieces from a similar time period that work together.  Period ads can be a good reference.  But most frames from 1900 look pretty much the same. 

Block chain means the shorter links are solid rather than plates and rollers.
The tires are single tube tires, meaning the tube and tire are one unit rather than a separate removable inner tube inside of a tire.


----------



## circa1939

Anything regarding the "stem" / neck?  I was thinking of looking it up and seeing if I can find more info on it, etc.

Also cleaned the rear hub, and it reads "New Departure".




Thanks


----------



## circa1939

*More photos,....after most cleaning of frame...*

Here are some more photos, but of the bike after I've cleaned it up a bit.






Interesting detail in blue, outlined in gold....




Small detail in the pinstriping at the tube ends by the crank.....notice the cross over shaping what looks like an upside down "4"...




Stem,....


----------



## circa1939

*Think I may have found my bike in a book??*

I decided to head to the library and seek out a copy of "The American Bicycle" whcih I found.

I noticed one very interesting thing about a photo in this book on page 70.  It's a picture of Paddy Bowler a famous sprinter.

Here's the match I made...

My bike has almost the exact same front forks as this bicycle does. (only difference seems to possibly be that the one in old photo might be taller??)

It has a distinct curve and design to itself at the top, (see photo of Paddy Bowler and picture of my forks), and beyond that, mine was also nickle plated from the bottom of the lower bearing cup to the top area of the front forks, just as this one is!  
Was this a common fork design or did the makers have their own distinct front forks??

Does anyone recognize the badge on the bike?  Anyone know what bike this was?? Any ideas??

In fact the entire bike looks the same, same design, same cross bracing curves, etc. all except the stem, handlebars and the bearing cups.  The bearing cups on mine are square, these apprear to be rounded.

Anyone have anymore info on Paddy Bowler or that bike?? I can't seem to find anything on the internet on him, or otherwise!!

Paddy Bowler....




Mine...


----------



## RMS37

Hi,

You have a very nice bike and it looks like it is cleaning up phenomenally.

Cranksets and chainrings (when they haven’t been changed) are probably the best single thing to study and compare to try to attribute an unknown early diamond frame bike to a manufacturer. Fork crowns along with other subtle differences in headset pieces, drop-outs, seat binders, the shape and bend of the tubing in the rear stays, and the tubing junctures themselves are also areas where differences may lead to identification. Diamond frames were very popular and with their straight tubes are very hard to identify without a badge.... (fade to a picture of all those badge collections out there,)  

I have seen the adjustable stem on your bike on other bikes before but I believe it is a part that was available to many different manufacturers     

I don’t think that the bike raced by Paddy Bowler has any significant details that would link it to your find. The fork crown is not particularly similar to the one on your bike.  Note the distance from the crown to the lower bearing cup and the minimal material in the web from the steerer to the blades. The crankset on the racer is also a two or three piece unlike your one piece crank.

*Insert soap box here. *

The photo brings up a point that I think could use some clarification regarding racing bicycles. Most diamond frame bicycles from the early part of this century are not really racing bikes in the truest sense. 

From the 1890’s through the Twenties, most of the larger manufacturers offered one or more “racing” models in their line of bicycles.  These models ranged from “boy racer” models constructed just like the standard adult and juvenile models but featuring drop bars to special lightened models similar to professional racing models but still generally produced for the non-professional sport rider. Very few manufacturers built or offered true racing bikes that would be considered competitive mounts for competition. 

The bicycles actually used by professional racers were generally hand built, sometimes in the back room by a large manufacturer to equip a factory sponsored team, but more often by independent builders in much the same way custom frames are produced today. 

By the 1930’s virtually all of the professional racers in America were either using frames built by independent frame builders or European sourced frames, all equipped with European componentry. Credit goes to Schwinn for developing the Paramount line of frames and equipment in 1938 which rivaled and in some areas exceeded the quality of what was available at the professional level. 

While the Paramount line was more heavily marketed and more successful than perhaps any other professional quality bicycle ever had been in America, it is interesting to note that production was infinitesimal in comparison with the World (and later Varsity and Continental production)

My point being... that the majority of bicycles from the early part of the century that today are regarded as racers are more akin to the Varsity Sports of their day. 

*Remove soap box.*

Please don’t infer anything personal from the above but I saw a segue way to a point I haven’t seen mentioned before.

Also, don’t lose faith, I believe between the crankset and the fork crown and a bit of good fortune the identity of your bike will eventually out itself.  

I’ll keep the bike in mind in case I come across a useful reference. 

Phil


----------



## circa1939

*Pics of fork crown,...*

Here are some pics of the fork crown on my bike.

I had thought it strongly resembled the one on the Paddy Bowles bike,.. except the taller area right above the crown.
Reason?

My thinking is due to the two tall knuckles on either end of the fork crown,..you can see the same two tall knuckles on the fork on the Paddy Bowles bike....only difference I had seen was the space between the bottom cup and the bottom of the fork crown.

Could this have been a different year's design by the same maker?

Could this have been a varient of the same bike, by the same, or sister company??


----------



## circa1939

Also,...where might I get a pair of wooden handles?

repro or original,....

Thanks


----------



## RMS37

I agree that the knuckles bear a resemblance to the racing crown, they were less evident in the earlier photos. 

With all the variations produced at the time the similarity wouldn?t convince me of a relationship between the two bikes. I also noticed that the racing bike has a split bottom bracket which your bike does not. 

The thing is that unless some feature is _identical_ and very distinctive between your bike and another badged bike there is no way to be sure they were made by the same manufacturer. 

On the other hand designs were modified, changed and updated frequently so two bikes that bear no resemblance to each other could indeed be from the same source.

I have several frames from the same period that I have not been able to identify and always considered making ornate ??? badges to give them some identity. 

Again I think the clue is to find a bike with the same crankset although even some of these were sourced rather than in-house production.

Another resource is The Wheelmen, which is the club that specializes in pre 1900 bicycles. Your bike is somewhat newer than that but someone in that group might recognize your frame and they would be a likely source for other period parts like grips.

Phil


----------



## Adamtinkerer

That looks to be a New Dep. model A hub, which may narrow things down a bit. I know balloon era bikes used the model D. ~Adam


----------



## circa1939

Adamtinkerer said:


> That looks to be a New Dep. model A hub, which may narrow things down a bit. I know balloon era bikes used the model D. ~Adam




thanks for the help!,.....do you have any furthur info on how long the Model A New Dep. hubs were used?  thank you


----------



## Andrew Gorman

I wish I knew when the Model A was used.  From what I've been able to casually piece together, the Corbin Screw Company made the Corbin Duplex brake until at least 1912.
At some point the made the very similar looking Corbin New Departure brake, which was followed by the New Departure Model A.  At least some parts interchange between the Corbin and New Departure.
The Model A was followed by the model B, model C, and the standard Model D that was in production until the 1950's.
The model A was used well into the 1920's, but your original brake may have been replaced, or an original fixie hub replaced with a coaster. 
Are there any marks on the front hub?  New Departure made a series of front hubs as well, but I have no idea when each came in and out of production. Unfortunately definite information about early 1900's bike is hard to come by.  Nothing that a week or so of research in a good library couldn't clarify, but I barely have time to get my hair cut lately.
Edit- I found a reference to the Corbin brake being made in 1919-
http://www.jimlangley.net/brake/brake.html
The lettering on the brake arm appears to be stamped, not cast, and I have seen a New Departure by Corbin Screw that had cast lettering... The mystery deepens.


----------



## Andrew Gorman

RE:handgrips, there are some that look pretty good on eBay, item  300264949962


----------



## circa1939

thank you,...i just picked them up!!


----------



## pelletman

Charlie Matteo in RI makes cork grips.  Matteo333@cox.net  and the bike looks great!


----------



## circa1939

thank you for the info on grips!


----------



## circa1939

*wheels,...since I want to ride it...*

I've been thinking,....since I eventually want to ride this little treasure once in a while, what would be the best period correct setup regarding wheels and rims to run on it?

I've like to keep the wooden rims or get metal clad,....

what then??
Thanks


----------



## sensor

then youd need some single tube tires or sew ups(memorylane,cooker tires,harpers tires,and universal tires all sell repops of them) just be warned theyre  pricey and not actual single tubes but the work and look correct...
ive been riding on a set from universal for about 3 months now without any problems


----------



## Andrew Gorman

Sensor, How well do the Universals  work as a bicycle tire?  Equivalent to a heavy balloon tire, or heavier and rougher riding?  the "semi pneumatic" description is scaring me off.  I've been thinking of using the Vittoria sew-up cyclocross tires just because they are probably a better performing and handling tire.
Thanks!


----------



## circa1939

sensor said:


> then youd need some single tube tires or sew ups(memorylane,cooker tires,harpers tires,and universal tires all sell repops of them) just be warned theyre  pricey and not actual single tubes but the work and look correct...
> ive been riding on a set from universal for about 3 months now without any problems




Memory lane does have them?  I hadnt noticed them there on the website??
I have Universal's on my prewar '29 roadster hot rod (period correct), I think they provide good products.

Anyone repro or carry wooden rims?....or would I be better off with metal-clad rims?


----------



## Andrew Gorman

Ghisallo makes wooden rims, including clinchers which would solve the tire problem:
http://www.cerchiinlegnoghisallo.com/homeeng.php
Some are available in the US:
http://wheelfanatyk.blogspot.com/2007/05/cermenati-wood-rims.html
Original wood and metal clad rims show up fairly frequently- do the ones on the bike have any problems?
Edit- the US supplier carries modern sizes-26", 700C.  From the looks of the company  on the Italian site, they could probably make rims for 28" tires if you asked nice.
Re-edit-They DO make rims for 28" clinchers!  This could be the best solution for a bike with natural finish rims.  I'm working on one that had painted rims, and a part of me would not like painting over the new Ghisallo rims....


----------



## sensor

yes memory lane does(at least they have them listed as available)
its on there site in bike parts under tires(28x1 1/2" pneumatic black white &red for wood rims) they also have sew ups(grey only).
as for the universals ive had no problems with them at all. they grab nice and the ride is good(not as cushy as a set of balloons but still a nice ride)!
as far as i know no one makes repop wood/clad rims your best bet is posting here and ratrodbikes in the classified and of course watching ebay and craigslist(check car show,and swap meets also...you might get lucky)
good luck and post some pics when shes rolling again!
WOW! thanks for that link andrew!


----------



## pelletman

Harper Machine tires are very nice and they are actual single tubes.


----------



## circa1939

pelletman said:


> Harper Machine tires are very nice and they are actual single tubes.




do they have a website?


----------



## circa1939

One more identifying aspect as I got back to cleaning the bike up a bit more....

It seems the wooden rims were originally painted black with two thin gold pinstripes on either side of each rim.

I'm sure this was common to do back then, so maybe its not really of any real help.


----------



## sam

what's the lettering stamped on the chainring say?


----------



## circa1939

sam said:


> what's the lettering stamped on the chainring say?




On the chainring it reads...

"FAUBER SPECIAL"

(then opposite that it reads...)

"Patent JULY 11," 

and what looks to be either the numbers "99" or "88" after that....

and the word, "TRADEMARK" with a small lightning bolt-like mark on its side below the word "TRADEMARK".  Like that lightening bolt-like symbol is the trademark??


----------



## circa1939

The only mention I found on the net of "Fauber Special" that looked old led me to this old catalog you can view online.
I thought you guys might appreciate this...

http://www.archive.org/stream/bicycleaccess00riceuoft


----------



## sam

Fauber wer an import parts and used on a lot of early bicycles---like western Wheel works and Cresents.This really does ID your bike but I'd look at Cresents Catalogs of 1899 or there abouts.


----------



## circa1939

sam said:


> Fauber wer an import parts and used on a lot of early bicycles---like western Wheel works and Cresents.This really does ID your bike but I'd look at Cresents Catalogs of 1899 or there abouts.




That's an awesome update to the ID'ing of this little bike!

I was wondering,...if i took a measurement of the two rivets that are still on the bike's neck, might this help ID the bike?  My thinking is that over the years the badge might have changed and so if indeed oen of those two maker's badges did fit where the holes for the rivets were the exact same sapce as those still on the neck of my frame, then this might solve or almost solve the mysetery??


----------



## pelletman

Harper does not have a website,  search the Wheelmen forums for their address..  They are in WV


----------



## circa1939

pelletman said:


> Harper does not have a website,  search the Wheelmen forums for their address..  They are in WV




Thank you...I'll look them up.

Yeah and what's with the wheelmen site forums?  I registered twice and never heard from them.  I was never admitted to the forum to have any posting privilages??


----------



## sam

Harper 's adress is:
Harper Machine and Manufacturing
Dunbar Ave
Dunbar ,West Va.
Phone 304-768-1147

Measuring the badge holes does help.
some early badges had very odd hole patterns
this might help---sam


----------



## Andrew Gorman

RE: stem and handlebars-
I was flipping through the "Newsletter by John Presents Mead Bicycles", available through the CABE bookstore and saw a stem like the one on your bike.  It's called "Hussey Handle Bars", and the book describes that catalog page as "Mead accessories made and sold from 1910 to well into the 1920's".  The bar and stem look like they were to work as a quick disconnect flip-flop stem and flip-flop bars.  Riser stem to drop stem, riser bars to drop bars.  A quick websearch did not turn up a good picture, just some mentions in motorcycle ads.  Hope this helps!
Andrew
Edit- there's one on  eBay now (10-22-08)- 220298955834


----------



## circa1939

Andrew Gorman said:


> RE: stem and handlebars-
> I was flipping through the "Newsletter by John Presents Mead Bicycles", available through the CABE bookstore and saw a stem like the one on your bike.  It's called "Hussey Handle Bars", and the book describes that catalog page as "Mead accessories made and sold from 1910 to well into the 1920's".  The bar and stem look like they were to work as a quick disconnect flip-flop stem and flip-flop bars.  Riser stem to drop stem, riser bars to drop bars.  A quick websearch did not turn up a good picture, just some mentions in motorcycle ads.  Hope this helps!
> Andrew
> Edit- there's one on  eBay now (10-22-08)-




Andrew-
Hey that's a nice bit of info you helped me out with!  Many thanks!!
Maybe we can narrow down the manufacturers who used that stem??


----------



## Classicriders

That is indeed a Hussey stem.  There are two fasteners on top, one holds the vertical portion of the stem in the fork tube, while the other holds the horizontal portion to the vertical portion.  You can remove the horizontal portion independently and flip it one way or the other while the vertical portion remains firmly held in place inside the fork tube.
Another interesting feature is the way in which the vertical portion is held in place.  Rather than pulling the wedge piece upwards when tightening  it, the wedge piece is pushed downward when tightened.  It is a great stem and a truly over engineered piece of work.
One interesting point about Fauber.  It is my understanding that they were the inventors of the one piece crank assembly.

CR


----------



## pelletman

circa1939 said:


> Thank you...I'll look them up.
> 
> Yeah and what's with the wheelmen site forums?  I registered twice and never heard from them.  I was never admitted to the forum to have any posting privilages??




Email Karen Turner directly and she'll sign you up.  keturner@thewheelmen.org  I guess they were overtaken by spam and porn and now they are over cautious


----------



## circa1939

Well, I can't believe its been so long and I never remembered to get the measurement of the brass rivets on the neck of the bike to help with the identification of the bike.

Well, I just measured the brass rivets and they measure 2" center to center on those rivets.

Any ideas from that measurement what badges from the era of the early 1900s with a "Hussey" neck stem, (of course "if" that's original to the bike)???

I'm hoping with the knowledgeable fellows here on head badges it will narrow the possibilities some?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## ccmerz

make of bike.......Tribune?


----------



## circa1939

Still no positive ID on this bike.

Again,... the measurements of the head badge's mounting screws or rivets are

2" center to center, vertically.  One at top, one at bottom.

...and of course, it has a "Hussey" stem to it,...

Thanks in advance for any help.
Would love to see a correct head badge on this little guy!


----------



## bud poe

Seen an early Pierce with the "Hussey" stem, not sure if its original to the bike but may be a clue...Try to find an up close image of a Pierce badge and go from there...
Good luck and great bike, I'm jealous!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QwhHJVf10Sw/TKPia3vvQ3I/AAAAAAAAAWQ/37K6pnwzaa4/s1600/IMG_3083.


----------



## circa1939

Thanks Bud poe!  
I'll look into the Pierce....!


----------



## chitown

Pierce head badges have offset rivet holes.

View attachment 13203


----------



## circa1939

ah ha!  thanks


----------

