# Any info on late '70s Arizona (Netherlands?) and Marlboro Woodstock (England?)



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Jan 12, 2022)

Got these today from orig owner's kid.  I believe they were purchased together (same LBS stickers)?
Ladies is nice with SA drum brakes.  Guessing late '70s from black plastic trigger shifter?  I'll see if I
can find a date on the hub...
Mens is kind of a cheapie.  The c/g is sewn on vinyl, crazy, and coming apart at threads.  It's a coaster
model with Komet hub.
I can't find any info about these on the web.  Anyone, know any?
Thanks,
jd


----------



## dnc1 (Jan 12, 2022)

No information readily available over here on the Marlboro brand
Lots of images of bikes that have sold/been for sale in the UK and Ireland pop up on a Google search, but no info on who made them.
Here's an earlier looking example that sold in Ireland for 100 Euros.....





One picture of a 'Marlboro' headbadge on the V-CC library site, but no accompanying info unfortunately.....




(Image from V-CC library).


----------



## Andrew Gorman (Jan 12, 2022)

The Arizona looks Dutch or Belgian from the coat guard, coaster brake  and geometry. The sewn vinyl chain cases are pretty standard issue on these.  Is there any other text on the headbadge?  A better picture to ID the critter could help narrow things down  if it's borrowed from a city coat of arms.


----------



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Jan 12, 2022)

Only stamp on rear hub of Woodstock is 37, so maybe 1977?
2 more pics of Arizona badge (my camera is low resolution).


----------



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Jan 12, 2022)

Marlboro has badly worn Union Jack on seat mast, which led me to believe UK?
Looks like Ireland, so I guess Northern Ireland?


----------



## juvela (Jan 12, 2022)

-----

the gents wears a Thun pattern chainset which is suggestive of an origin in a Germanic nation

fits in with the Komet hub

possible that the Arizona marque may be one belonging to a chainstore or importer...


-----


----------



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Jan 12, 2022)

What about the spot on badge where it says NEDERL?  That's what led me to think Netherlands.


----------



## Andrew Gorman (Jan 12, 2022)

A Holland Bag At Amsterdam The Netherlands
					

A Holland Bag At Amsterdam The Netherlands



					www.istockphoto.com


----------



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Jan 12, 2022)

Not sure what this says or language, but guessing Flemish or Dutch?


----------



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Jan 12, 2022)

I guess it doesn't matter, anyway.  They are both cheap bikes.  The only value here is the drum hubs on the Woodstock.
I'll probably take those out and replace them with regular 3 speed wheels.  The Arizona is a bit more tricky.  Nothing on 
it worth anything and the c/g will be hard to fix.


----------



## J-wagon (Jan 12, 2022)

LIFE OF SCHWINN said:


> Not sure what this says or language, but guessing Flemish or Dutch?



Danish 3 words roughly "Guaranteed stainless enamel"


----------



## GTs58 (Jan 12, 2022)

Very similar piece, Gazelle Safari. 

Where is this? 


	
	






__ https://www.facebook.com/BikesInGroningen/photos/a.255632374524120/1180287915391890


----------



## J-wagon (Jan 12, 2022)

J-wagon said:


> Danish 3 words roughly "Guaranteed stainless enamel"



Correction I mean Dutch


----------



## GTs58 (Jan 12, 2022)

Check out Pashley. 





__





						Pashley Full Range — The Traditional Cycle Shop
					






					www.traditionalcycleshop.co.uk


----------



## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 19, 2022)

Those wheels should be either Sturmey Archer or Sachs if it's English or Gazelle if it is Dutch.
Included is a photo of a Gazelle hub from eBay.


----------



## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 19, 2022)

If you do remove them and are selling, look for the brand name and let me know. Also count spokes front and rear. Some English/European wheels are 40 spoke,or 32 spoke on front. Those are harder to reuse hubs from but maybe still useful.
Thanks, Rob


----------



## Wheeler (Jan 19, 2022)

The Woodstock, I'd suspect is a Batavus product from Holland.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe (Jan 19, 2022)

what is up with these foreign bikes and the chain guards? enclosing the chain seems like a major waste of time.

almost bought a funky bike with the 3-speed drum brakes a while back. I think that would be a cool set up


----------



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Jan 19, 2022)

OLD GUY 1960,
They are both Sturmey Archer and both 36 hole.  I  am trading them to a friend.  I can give him you info if you want to PM me with it.
jd


----------



## Andrew Gorman (Jan 19, 2022)

A chaincase gives your chain and sprockets a nice, oil filled controlled environment, free from rain, road dirt, etc.  Get everything adjusted and lubed properly and you can forget you even have a chain.  They work best on internally geared hubs.  Popular in Britain (wet, muddy roads) and Holland (flat as a pancake, coaster brakes popular) and not very many other places.  India (Empire) and China (copied Raleighs) excepted.


----------



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Jan 19, 2022)

Both are very poorly designed.  Green c/g is plastic.  Came on/off fairly easily, but warped and rubbing on chain.
Black is vinyl.  You can see in pic 2 how it was enclosed.  3 pieces with loops sewn on bottom and steel wire sliding
through loops.  Nothing I can do about green.  I sewed a zipper in curved section of black (notice V cuts), but zipper wasn't wide 
enough for bottom portion, so I went to velcro (still have to sew that).  A lot of work for cheap bike.


----------



## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 19, 2022)

Wouldn't it be easier to dig up a couple chainguards that could be modified easily to fit and paint them black? Or even universal chainguards? I am only asking because I am standing back looking at them, not actually there to notice any reasons that wouldn't be feasible.


----------



## Andrew Gorman (Jan 19, 2022)

Do you need a chaincase where you ride? Just slap on a random chainguard and be done with it.  There are equally cheap new ones available from Dutch bike shops, but shipping is a bear.  Winter commuting in Massachusetts really made me understand the merits, but I got by without.  The metal ones on British bikes are a really interesting and useful piece of equipment, but not really adopted elsewhere.


----------



## dnc1 (Jan 20, 2022)

Andrew Gorman said:


> Do you need a chaincase where you ride? Just slap on a random chainguard and be done with it.  There are equally cheap new ones available from Dutch bike shops, but shipping is a bear.  Winter commuting in Massachusetts really made me understand the merits, but I got by without.  The metal ones on British bikes are a really interesting and useful piece of equipment, but not really adopted elsewhere.



They can be useful as you say, practically making chains last forever.
But if you've ever stood next to a guy with an early Sunbeam when he has to remove the rear wheel at the roadside due to a puncture, please try not to laugh.
The resulting torrent of verbal abuse directed at you will be almost as long as the life of said chain, lol!


----------



## sykerocker (Jan 20, 2022)

A few thoughts on the enclosed chain case:

The protection factor is obvious.  If you're riding that bicycle as your daily transportation, 365 days a year, no matter what the weather. you want this.  Especially if you're wearing something better than jeans to ride in.  You can go virtually forever without re-lubricating your chain, once you've oiled it up in the first place.  And you can way over-lube it without making a mess of your bike or clothes.

The style factor is unbelievable.  Nothing says "antique bicycle" better than a fully enclosed chain case.  In my time in the reenactment hobby, I've had a chance to work with a few World War I, World War II, and Depression-era groups that utilize a bicycle in their group impression.  While using an actual antique is obviously the way to go, I've worked with individuals who backdated 70's roadsters and English racers as fill-ins until they could find a proper bike.  And, for that matter, used the fill-in for weekend tacticals when the weather or conditions could damage an antique bicycle.  In these cases, going to an enclosed chain case is mandatory, just to cover up the fact that the frame angles aren't slack enough, you've got cable operated brakes, etc.

Yes, they are a pain to work with.  Now, I've yet to work with an original pre-WWII roadster that came into my hands with the enclosed chain case intact.  My personal experience is with the knockoffs.  Primarily Chinese Flying Pigeons.  And the knockoff Chinese and Indian bikes have chain cases that are, maybe, 1/16" wider than the chain.  Which means, since said bikes are invariably going to have a bit of warpage in the chainwheel, you're going to get some degree of scraping in your pedal rotation, no matter how much you adjust.  It's maddening, and I can only assume that the original British/Dutch/Belgian/whatever bikes had higher quality chainwheels that weren't warped.  On the other hand, once you've removed and reinstalled a chain case 3-4 times (usually trying to adjust the scraping out) you get used to it, and it's no longer an effort.  You know the method.

Yes, if you get a puncture, you've got a problem.  My understanding for this (and it's just an understanding, the only flat I've ever had when I was a distance from home was the complete failure of my tire's sidewall - call mama to bring the van) is that you don't remove the wheel.  You lay the bike down with the wheel still mounted, dismount the tire from the rim (28" rims actually make that kind of easy), use the frame pump to find the puncture, patch it right there, and remount the tire and reinflate.  I'll assume it works, one of these days, no doubt, I'll find out since my Raleigh Tourist is one of my two daily commuters.

From my days at the Raleigh shop:  The Tourist, in England, came with a full coverage chain case.  The American models came with a hockey stick chain guard due to weight.  Not weight as in "affecting performance" (nobody will ever use the term performance regarding a rod-braked roadster without chuckling) but something to do with shipping weight, or import duties based on weight, or something else along those lines.  My old boss was never clear on the details. Suffice to say, the bike with a hockey stick chain guard barely made it under the weight limit, while the enclosed chain case version was definitely over.


----------



## SirMike1983 (Jan 20, 2022)

The chain case, chain cover, and oil bath should be differentiated. 

The chain case is a full case that covers the chain fully, both sides. These are the ones you see on the classic Raleigh Sports, Superbe, DL-1, etc. They usually have a little oiler cap at the top so you can drip oil in every so often.

The chain cover covers the entirety of the chain but only on the external side, that is to say, the backside is open and the chain is exposed on the side closest to the frame. So if you look at the bike from the drive side, you see just the cover (the chain is totally covered up). However, if you look from the non-drive side you see the entirety of the chain because the chain cover only covers the outside/drive-side of the chain to protect your pant legs. Some of the covers leave the very end of the chain exposed where it goes around the rear cog.

The oil bath is a chain case that has an oil reservoir in it such that the chain runs through the reservoir and self-oils. No all chain cases are "oil baths" because the oil bath has the reservoir, whereas a standard chain case does not have an oil reservoir in the bottom. Sunbeam is most famous for having the oil bath reservoir feature.

The vinyl and cloth chain covers were popular in the Nethlerlands, Belgium, West Germany, and Denmark. They were a lighter and cheaper chain cover than an all-metal cover. They can be a pain in the ass to repair now, which I guess you are experiencing. 

The all-metal ones are easier to repair, but still kind of a pain to fit and service. They were more practical when these were commuter  bikes ridden with dress clothes in all weather rather than "classic" bikes ridden in only good weather. Other than originality and appearance, the chain case is not terribly helpful if you ride only when it's sunny and dry, and in casual clothes with cuff clips.


----------



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Feb 6, 2022)

Both are completed.  Marlboro needs tweaking to get c/g not to rub.  Arizona not as nice as I'd hoped, but presentable.


----------



## non-fixie (Feb 16, 2022)

sykerocker said:


> (...)
> 
> Yes, if you get a puncture, you've got a problem.  My understanding for this (and it's just an understanding, the only flat I've ever had when I was a distance from home was the complete failure of my tire's sidewall - call mama to bring the van) is that you don't remove the wheel.  You lay the bike down with the wheel still mounted, dismount the tire from the rim (28" rims actually make that kind of easy), use the frame pump to find the puncture, patch it right there, and remount the tire and reinflate.  I'll assume it works, one of these days, no doubt, I'll find out since my Raleigh Tourist is one of my two daily commuters.
> 
> (...)




This is exactly how it works. Being a Dutchman I've had a couple of these bikes in my youth and have repaired quite a few tire punctures that way. Front and rear. Not a big deal, really. Turn the bike upside down, pop out the inner tube, use a pump and some water (spit will do in a roadside emergency situation) to find the hole, patch it, mount the tube and the tire, pump it up and Bob's your uncle.

And WRT the quality: the lack of features may seem to indicate they weren't the most expensive bikes (and they weren't), but these will outlive your grandchildren with very little maintenance. 🙂


----------



## dnc1 (Feb 16, 2022)

The choice of name on the 'Marlboro Woodstock' has intrigued me from the start of this thread. 
Being an Oxfordshire lad, and 'Woodstock' Being a small market town just a few miles north west of the city of Oxford, but also the 'Marlboro' part of the name.
'Marlborough' (the English spelling) is the family name of the Dukes of Marlborough, who reside at  Blenheim Palace in Woodstock, the only non-Royal and non-episcopal "Palace" in Britain.
The house where Sir Winston Churchill was born.
I wonder if the manufacturers just really liked using British aristocratic names to try and boost the image of their low-end products?
Note that the model I posted the photo of on the first page of this thread was a 'Marlboro Woodstock Royal Derby', that's a pretty grand name for a pretty basic bicycle.


----------



## LIFE OF SCHWINN (Feb 16, 2022)

dnc1,
Thanks for insight.  I thought they were capitalizing on American cigarette name and the New York music festival in 1969?  What puzzles me is, they both have bike shop stickers from WHEELS fiets-koopjeshal?  I'm guessing these were purchased in the Netherlands and sent to America?  I looked up the shop and it appears they sell a lot of used bikes, so maybe the Marlboro made it's way there? or did they import bikes form England?


----------



## non-fixie (Feb 16, 2022)

I did a little digging, and Arizona seems to have been a secondary brand name used by Union, an old and well-established Dutch brand.


----------

