# front fender removal late 40s / early 50s???



## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

IM going through my "new to me" spitfire and giving it a good regreasing and clean up. 

I need to get the front fender off and while the axle is is obvious the "under the fork" section is not. 

I figured once i got the wheel off, the fender would be attached with a screw / bolt to the under side of the fork. It isnt. It appears to be welded or press fit there. 

How doyou remove this? do you get between the fork and fender and pry it out? Im pretty sure if i tried that i would pull through the fender leaving me no possible way of reattaching it when it was ready to go back together.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

scale said:


> IM going through my "new to me" spitfire and giving it a good regreasing and clean up.
> 
> I need to get the front fender off and while the axle is is obvious the "under the fork" section is not.
> 
> ...



This is something that I`ve never run into.... You will need to pull the handlebars and drop the fork and get a better look at the problem. Good Luck- keep us advised...----Cowboy


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## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

I checked my old 48 dx and my newer chrome fender 60s schwinn 3 speed curved bar and both front fenders appear to have a screw that threads up into the bottom of the fork.  I suspect this one is supposed to do the same and someone bodged it. Then they tried to repair it by using metal square and some kind of press fit thing mushrooming it to the fender.

Not sure on this but honestly i dont know how it could be anything else.
I may have to drill this out to remove it. It is already a bit loose around where the mushroomed bit is in the fenders hole. I can probably grind away the mushroom and get the fender out that way. I just hope i can unscrew the bit that goes up into the fender so i can replace it with a proper machine screw or bolt.


This pic is horrible but you can see the square...perhaps expoxied and the "pin" mushroomed out in the middle.






once i can get this off i can work on getting the stem out. I have been soaking it for the past 2 days in kryoil and pb but it wont budge. The crown nut is off and the stems bolt is gone meaning somone else either removed it or it is broken off down inside. The stem itself is rusted to the inside of the fork it seems. 

i too a really long punch and put it down the stems hole.....it appears to go down past where the wedge would be so i dont think the wedge is preventing it from coming loose. I sure hope i can get it out. without wrecking the fork in the process. With the thickness of the fork legs and some proper leverage near the fender mount i am hoping it will come loose.


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## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

Id love to drop the fork but that dang stem is really in there. I have to guess that it isnt the original stem to the bike. It appears to be one of the later stems.....one of those pressed steel or rolled steel jobs from the 60s? Like shown here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960s-Vinta...404558?hash=item3d435144ce:g:jloAAOSwz71ZWtt7

Sadly...i imagine moisture got down that front seam and probably mucked up everything. I think most stems of the bikes era were solid steel...not hollow. perhaps i can crush it out if nothing else. I dont know....it is still pretty thick steel. Heres to hoping i can get enough PB/Penetrating lube in here to help it free up. 

As for the fender, once i get this off, i am hoping i can unscrew the part that goes up into the fork and then use a washer, reattach it like it was intended originally for easy removal next time.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

scale said:


> I checked my old 48 dx and my newer chrome fender 60s schwinn 3 speed curved bar and both front fenders appear to have a screw that threads up into the bottom of the fork.  I suspect this one is supposed to do the same and someone bodged it. Then they tried to repair it by using metal square and some kind of press fit thing mushrooming it to the fender.
> 
> Not sure on this but honestly i dont know how it could be anything else.
> I may have to drill this out to remove it. It is already a bit loose around where the mushroomed bit is in the fenders hole. I can probably grind away the mushroom and get the fender out that way. I just hope i can unscrew the bit that goes up into the fender so i can replace it with a proper machine screw or bolt.
> ...



I recently had a long stem stuck in a fork on a `39 Cycle Truck frame. Ended up cutting the top of the stem off to better access and remove the fork from the frame. Then soaked it with penetrating oil for days, applied heat from a torch- nothing worked. Spent several days knocking on it. Finally sold it as- is. I hope that your luck is better...---Cowboy
My advice would be to try and save the fender and replace the fork- it`s cheaper and easier in the long run... the inside of the fork tube is scored and it will give you trouble again... or to partially save the fork--- cut it off below the problem, find a suitable donor and weld a new top on the fork...


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## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

Cowboy in NC said:


> be to try and save the fender and replace the fork- it`s cheaper and easier in the long run... the inside of the fork tube is scored and it will give you trouble again... or to partially save the fork--- cut it off below the problem, find a suitable donor and weld a new top on the fork...






Cowboy in NC said:


> I recently had a long stem stuck in a fork on a `39 Cycle Truck frame. Ended up cutting the top of the stem off to better access and remove the fork from the frame. Then soaked it with penetrating oil for days, applied heat from a torch- nothing worked. Spent several days knocking on it. Finally sold it as- is. I hope that your luck is better...---Cowboy
> My advice would be to try and save the fender and replace the fork- it`s cheaper and easier in the long run... the inside of the fork tube is scored and it will give you trouble again... or to partially save the fork--- cut it off below the problem, find a suitable donor and weld a new top on the fork...




Both options i would like to try and avoid if possible. 

I know i will be able to get the fender off. It is pouring rain right now so it is going to have to wait. Its close to being off.

The fork/stem debacle is another story. I am hoping once the fender is off i will have more options.for removal. I am almost certain there is no hole on the bottom of the fork to allow it to be pushed out from the bottom. Most likely water got down in there over the years....sat and sat and bam.....its completely rusted and wont be coming apart. Ill give it my best. Id had to do a different fork as the patina would be completely different. I guess the cut/reweld option would help that. I have never had one quite this stubborn but im betting it happens a lot. 

I would love to find a cycle truck. I have only ever seen one for sale in person. I bet that was tough to find a for for replacment. Those bikes are so neat.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

scale said:


> Both options i would like to try and avoid if possible.
> 
> I know i will be able to get the fender off. It is pouring rain right now so it is going to have to wait. Its close to being off.
> 
> ...



My Prewar Cycle Truck frame was an Ebay sale, I listed it with the Buyer fully aware of the problem , and with a proposed similar solution . These parts are hard to find and replace- but sometimes you have to "stretch them." My stem had a similar problem, stem bolt broke off in the wedge at the bottom of the stem and wedge imbedded on the inside wall of the tube. I hope that you have better luck than I did.  The repair that I mentioned will allow you to retain your overall patina, and since repair is inside the head tube - it will not be seen. Sometimes we have to do things we don`t want to do... God Bless,---Cowboy


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## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

hmm.....and it looks like im done.


I was removing the rear fender/wheel and stripping the frameset to prep to get the fork out.

2 cracks somehow on the same side.. one above the brake bridge and one down by the dropout.  It appears to be rust related. I am not sure how this is even possible but i dont imagine this is repairable at all. It almost looks like water in the frame at some point and ice cracked it? Most of the rust elsewhere is purely surface rust.  So much for my rat bike schwinn. This thing has great patina. It would have been a great project. Perhaps time to get relegated to a "garden bike".......

I ran the tip of my screw driver through the cracked areas and sprayed them with pb to clean them a bit.

Sad 









i poked and prodded in both cracks and they dont appear to go all the way through. I cleaned them up a bit. Very strange.

I wonder i if i dare weld / fill them. I could put a small brace in each section. This thing was never going to win any awards. I wanted it as a ratty wreck but functional in the end. Hmm.....

So frustrating to see this.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

scale said:


> hmm.....and it looks like im done.
> 
> 
> I was removing the rear fender/wheel and stripping the frameset to prep to get the fork out.
> ...



You give up too easy... Talk to a welder... You will need to find the absolute ends of each crack and drill a hole there to keep them from spreading further. Then weld or braze the cracks up filling those holes at the same time. The crack should be "V-cut to get good penetration of the weld. Shouldn`t cost much. Then grind down the welds and re- patina those places to match. Tackle one place at the time- and finish it.  I like your Patina Bike...think about it...--Cowboy            Nothing in Life is easy- if You do it right... It`s your project though and your investment---and your call...


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## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

hmm......i do have a buddy with a welder......but im not sure he is up to this. I will ask him. It all depends on if i can get that pesky stem out. Thats the next order of business. Here is a picture of this thing as i picked it up.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

scale said:


> hmm......i do have a buddy with a welder......but im not sure he is up to this. I will ask him. It all depends on if i can get that pesky stem out. Thats the next order of business. Here is a picture of this thing as i picked it up.
> 
> View attachment 659854



I like it - Superb Patina !!! A new set of tires (and maybe a seat) and everybody will want it. Just Do It ! Finish the bike...and Ride it...----Cowboy


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## Jeff54 (Aug 13, 2017)

scale said:


> i.d. love to drop the fork but that dang stem is really in there. I have to guess that it isnt the original stem to the bike. It appears to be one of the later stems.....one of those pressed steel or rolled steel jobs from the 60s? Like shown here:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960s-Vinta...404558?hash=item3d435144ce:g:jloAAOSwz71ZWtt7
> 
> ...





That's the wald stem and yes, I've seen that on Schwinn's  down to 1953.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> That's the wald stem and yes, I've seen that on Schwinn's  down to 1953.



To get the stem out you`re gonna have to cut the top of the stem off. It`s okay, you can find another one... Leave enough, maybe a couple of inches above the top of the bearing cup. Hacksaw Time. That way you can remove the fork from the frame. Then you can put the fork in a vise and try moving the stem with a pipe wrench. Plenty of penetrating oil- it might move. If not, then try heating it with a propane torch. If that doesn`t work- cut the fork tube below the problem (use a tube cutter so it is perfectly straight) and replace the top section as previously discussed. It is the simplest way to fix.----Cowboy
I want to see you ride this thing...


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## Jeff54 (Aug 13, 2017)

Yup you're right that is from frozen pipe explosion.

If you have somebody handy, You could clean em real good, with grinder then tap the bubble back and weld or braze em closed again, and grind off excess. prob no drain hole on inside of that dropout stay bar so water traped and froze, . inside rot/rust prob not going to  come back to haunt it, if sealed,  for 5-10 years.




scale said:


> hmm.....and it looks like im done.
> 
> 
> I was removing the rear fender/wheel and stripping the frameset to prep to get the fork out.
> ...


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## Jeff54 (Aug 13, 2017)

Fender: looks like ya got a rotted screw head in there. You're going to have to drill it out. Otherwise you'll likely bend the fender hole out too much, getting it off the fork. Carefully grind it off, Tap a hole in center of it's shaft and drill out .





scale said:


> I checked my old 48 dx and my newer chrome fender 60s schwinn 3 speed curved bar and both front fenders appear to have a screw that threads up into the bottom of the fork.  I suspect this one is supposed to do the same and someone bodged it. Then they tried to repair it by using metal square and some kind of press fit thing mushrooming it to the fender.
> 
> Not sure on this but honestly i dont know how it could be anything else.
> I may have to drill this out to remove it. It is already a bit loose around where the mushroomed bit is in the fenders hole. I can probably grind away the mushroom and get the fender out that way. I just hope i can unscrew the bit that goes up into the fender so i can replace it with a proper machine screw or bolt.
> ...


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## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> Fender: looks like ya got a rotted screw head in there. You're going to have to drill it out. Otherwise you'll likely bend the fender hole out too much, getting it off the fork. Carefully grind it off, Tap a hole in center of it's shaft and drill out .




Thats exactly what i did. I used a dremel and ground away at it carefully. Fender came off and i didnt even nick it with the grinding wheel. Piece of cake. It was harder to get the extension cord out and  plug in the dremel. I need to get myself a cordless one some day. So much handier. I am going to talk to my buddy on the welding. He just got his welder and he isnt the best welder but if he cant do it i bet one of his coworkers can. 

I am going to try a 2x4 between the fork blades first and a pipe wrench. I figure i can get a bit more leverage using the head of the stem because if the angled part. When that doesnt work, its cutting time. 

I have taking alloy stems out buy running a hack saw blade down the hollow part (after cutting off the stem) and then carefully sawing through the alloy in 2 or 3 spots vertically. The stem crushes in on itself easy once you have done that. Sad part here is it is steel. Much much harder to do. Trust me.....even with alloy it takes forever but i just propped it in the bike stand, cracked a beer.......started a movie and started sawing away. Arm gets tired......then you switch. By the end of the movie you are good to go


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## Jeff54 (Aug 13, 2017)

That Wald stem should have a slice in front center They are a single piece of pressed steel plate.  just squeeze in that split on a vise. presto you're done. actually a pipe wrench placed in the right spot could squeeze it in enough to twist it out  too.

They're crap stems as, too easy to bend when tightening handle bar. A low blow for Schwinn as they're another reason huffy and Murray's were crap. Yet, I think you just discovered at least 1 good thing. crimp that seam closed, makes it easier to trash.



scale said:


> Thats exactly what i did. I used a dremel and ground away at it carefully. Fender came off and i didnt even nick it with the grinding wheel. Piece of cake. It was harder to get the extension cord out and  plug in the dremel. I need to get myself a cordless one some day. So much handier. I am going to talk to my buddy on the welding. He just got his welder and he isnt the best welder but if he cant do it i bet one of his coworkers can.
> 
> I am going to try a 2x4 between the fork blades first and a pipe wrench. I figure i can get a bit more leverage using the head of the stem because if the angled part. When that doesnt work, its cutting time.
> 
> I have taking alloy stems out buy running a hack saw blade down the hollow part (after cutting off the stem) and then carefully sawing through the alloy in 2 or 3 spots vertically. The stem crushes in on itself easy once you have done that. Sad part here is it is steel. Much much harder to do. Trust me.....even with alloy it takes forever but i just propped it in the bike stand, cracked a beer.......started a movie and started sawing away. Arm gets tired......then you switch. By the end of the movie you are good to go


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> Fender: looks like ya got a rotted screw head in there. You're going to have to drill it out. Otherwise you'll likely bend the fender hole out too much, getting it off the fork. Carefully grind it off, Tap a hole in center of it's shaft and drill out .





Jeff54 said:


> That Wald stem should have a slice in front center They are a single piece of pressed steel plate.  just squeeze in that split on a vise. presto you're done. actually a pipe wrench placed in the right spot could squeeze it in enough to twist it out  too.



Be easy with that 2X4 and wrench- you can easily bend your fork....-------Cowboy


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## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> That Wald stem should have a slice in front center They are a single piece of pressed steel plate. just squeeze in that split on a vise. presto you're done. actually a pipe wrench placed in the right spot could squeeze it in too.




Thats the hope. I was actually glad to see it was this type of stem for a change and not solid. I am hoping that makes it a bit easier.

The top crown race is a bit fused to the stem as well. It wont budge. I am probably going to ruin that getting it off. I am hoping i can get a pipe wrench to bite that skinny surface. I can get a replacement cheap enough at the local coop.

The top nut was a bugger to get off. I soaked it for a day and finally got it to come loose. The threads that i can see dont look too bad. I am surprised it was this stuck. I guess this is why you use grease or anti seize when putting this stuff together. It doesnt look like that was done here at all.....or perhaps moisture killed that long ago.


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## Jeff54 (Aug 13, 2017)

U no ya gotta pound out the inner hold/lock  nut right?  and from the looks of all that rust you're going to need to either waste your bolt, screwed down to about 1/8"-1/4" from bottom, and beat the crap out hitting down on it  with hammer, (That stem's trash anyway)   or get a hard steel shaft to pound that down.



 



scale said:


> Thats the hope. I was actually glad to see it was this type of stem for a change and not solid. I am hoping that makes it a bit easier.
> 
> The top crown race is a bit fused to the stem as well. It wont budge. I am probably going to ruin that getting it off. I am hoping i can get a pipe wrench to bite that skinny surface. I can get a replacement cheap enough at the local coop.
> 
> The top nut was a bugger to get off. I soaked it for a day and finally got it to come loose. The threads that i can see dont look too bad. I am surprised it was this stuck. I guess this is why you use grease or anti seize when putting this stuff together. It doesnt look like that was done here at all.....or perhaps moisture killed that long ago.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

scale said:


> Thats the hope. I was actually glad to see it was this type of stem for a change and not solid. I am hoping that makes it a bit easier.
> 
> The top crown race is a bit fused to the stem as well. It wont budge. I am probably going to ruin that getting it off. I am hoping i can get a pipe wrench to bite that skinny surface. I can get a replacement cheap enough at the local coop.
> 
> The top nut was a bugger to get off. I soaked it for a day and finally got it to come loose. The threads that i can see dont look too bad. I am surprised it was this stuck. I guess this is why you use grease or anti seize when putting this stuff together. It doesnt look like that was done here at all.....or perhaps moisture killed that long ago.



I just thought of something else... with the wedge stuck at the bottom you can`t saw the whole length of the stem from the inside. That was my problem, too.---Cowboy


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> U no ya gotta pound out the inner hold/lock  nut right?  and from the looks of all that rust you're going to need to either waste your bolt, screwed down to about 1/8"-1/4" from bottom, and beat the crap out hitting down on it  with hammer, (That stem's trash anyway)   or get a hard steel shaft to pound that down.
> View attachment 659981



He might have better luck- but I couldn`t beat mine out...----Cowboy


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## Jeff54 (Aug 13, 2017)

Cowboy in NC said:


> He might have better luck- but I couldn`t beat mine out...----Cowboy



Wait you're beating what? [grin} I had or got one nice steel rod, otherwise a wasted stem bolt, smacking all around it out of the hole, working around top of nut like hours of clock. But thems some cheap butt metal, so, they could melt together pretty dam good. yup.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> Wait you're beating what? [grin} I had or got one nice steel rod, otherwise a wasted stem bolt, smacking all around it out of the hole, working around top of nut like hours of clock. But thems some cheap butt metal, so, they could melt together pretty dam good. yup.



I cut the top off of my stem, then used a heavy punch to try and make the wedge drop down. I had a steel plate under the fork.  It wouldn`t budge, bigger hammer- same thing. Once the wedge has scored the inside wall of the tube and rusted there- its locked...-----Cowboy


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## Jeff54 (Aug 13, 2017)

Cowboy in NC said:


> I cut the top off of my stem, then used a heavy punch to try and make the wedge drop down. I had a steel plate under the fork.  It wouldn`t budge, bigger hammer- same thing. Once the wedge has scored the inside wall of the tube and rusted there- its locked...-----Cowboy



Ouch.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> Ouch.



Not funny Jeff----------Cowboy


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## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

yeah.....the wedge. The bolt for the stem is long gone. The previous owner must have snapped that trying to loosen it would be my guess. I did run a punch down inside the stem hole but didnt have one long enough to bottom out at the bottom of the fork. The fork has no outlet hold on the bottom like most every other fork on the planet. It is sealed. I will have to get a throw away stem bolt from another stem and tap that down.

I dont think it will likely come out. It might have to stay in there and hope i have enough stem hole to mount another stem above it and still be above the safely line on the new stem. This might be one reason i cant seem to twist the stem. If that is rusted so bad it wont turn with the stem that would explain it. Perhaps i should try pounding upwards on the stem to see if it seperates at the wedge. If it cant be taken out and it isnt far enough down to fit a new stem on top of it i guess im stuck again. 

OR...........different fork. I could probably go with one of those chrome 26 inch forks from Niagara Cycle. I have used those before and they look great. It might look a bit funny on this crazy painted mess. 

The whole thing is going to have to wait a bit now. Back to work tomorrow and wont have time to touch it for a while. I dont know where the weekends go but they sure do disappear fast. 

.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

scale said:


> yeah.....the wedge. The bolt for the stem is long gone. The previous owner must have snapped that trying to loosen it would be my guess. I did run a punch down inside the stem hole but didnt have one long enough to bottom out at the bottom of the fork. The fork has no outlet hold on the bottom like most every other fork on the planet. It is sealed. I will have to get a throw away stem bolt from another stem and tap that down.
> 
> I dont think it will likely come out. It might have to stay in there and hope i have enough stem hole to mount another stem above it and still be above the safely line on the new stem. This might be one reason i cant seem to twist the stem. If that is rusted so bad it wont turn with the stem that would explain it. Perhaps i should try pounding upwards on the stem to see if it seperates at the wedge. If it cant be taken out and it isnt far enough down to fit a new stem on top of it i guess im stuck again.
> 
> ...



Hope you get it- God Bless,---Cowboy


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## scale (Aug 13, 2017)

Thanks for the encouragement! I like a challenge.


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 13, 2017)

scale said:


> Thanks for the encouragement! I like a challenge.



Don`t mess with the seat post, and don`t let it freeze again... -------Cowboy


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## scale (Aug 14, 2017)

Cowboy in NC said:


> Don`t mess with the seat post, and don`t let it freeze again... -------Cowboy





seatpost is fine. I got that out.


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## Jeff54 (Aug 14, 2017)

Cowboy in NC said:


> Not funny Jeff----------Cowboy



Depends on where you're sitting. [grin]
actually, I said "ouch"  without humor implied but, you said; funny not.

 I got an adage to solve it all;

 The old mind against metal rule:

Mind created metal, metal loses every time. .


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## scale (Aug 24, 2017)

Update: I got the stem out. I had a buddy who worked with a guy that did it. I had cut the head off the stem and gave the fork to him for removal. It was quick for him. He had a vice and a hammer. He didnt even need the torch. The wedge is out and the stem....

Then he was able to get the broken fender bolt out as well using his welder. He tack welded some scrap to it and it twisted out for him.

Frame is welded as well. I will probably put pictures  up of that when i get a chance. Looks like this old rig will ride again shortly. Now the quest to find tires.

Update2: Just out grinding down the welds and found we didnt get it all. I stlll have more welding to do it seems. I can see a hairline crack even though we drilled at what we though was the end of the crack....i removed more paint and it is about 1/2 longer.....


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## Cowboy in NC (Aug 24, 2017)

Well Done Scale... Great News! It will be worth it in the end... God Bless,---Cowboy


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## scale (Aug 25, 2017)

i wont get to the finish the welding until next week some time but that wont stop me from starting to build it back up. I even was rooting around in the garage yesterday and i found some old tires. I had an old skiptooth wheelset that i forgot about. I dont know if the tires are in good condition or not but they are better than what i took off the bike. They will work until i find some others.

Looks like things are coming together


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