# 1941 Western Flyer with "V" for Victory



## thogsez (Jun 24, 2011)

I've just recently upgraded the tires, pedals, and grips.  Just in time for the 4th! 
I'm assuming the CW in the serial number indicates a Cleveland Welding Co built bike even though it was assumed to be Huffman built on an earlier thread?


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## dougfisk (Jun 24, 2011)

FWIW - frame, fork, chainwheel, chainguard, sure say huffman to me.


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## thogsez (Jun 24, 2011)

dougfisk said:


> - chainwheel, chainguard, sure say huffman to me.



 Agreed, especially where the fork and frame is involved. Didn't CWC always have the lip for the dropstand back then regardless of whether they used it? Weren't the chainwheel and chainguard manufactured by yet another party, like Wald or someone similar? I have no knowledge on this subject it's just that I've seen them (especially the chainguard) on several different makes of bike. I was wondering if  Western Auto might have used them to distinguish their brand. These are a whole lot of assumptions on my part with no facts whatsoever so I am completely willing to learn from the masters...


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## dougfisk (Jun 24, 2011)

I believe 37fleetwood is the master of Dayton Huffman-ology.  I am only a humble apprentice.  If he doesn't notice the thread, try sending him a PM.


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## OldRider (Jun 24, 2011)

From what I have seen if it were a Cleveland Welding bike then in the serial # you would find the letter C with the W in its mouth.


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## thogsez (Jun 24, 2011)

You know... it was only those 2 silly letters in the serial number that got my wheels spinning out of control.  Everything on this bike screams Huffman but that CW sent my mind reeling on a tangent. I'm back on (more or less) solid ground now.


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## thogsez (Jun 24, 2011)

OldRider said:


> From what I have seen if it were a Cleveland Welding bike then in the serial # you would find the letter C with the W in its mouth.




Of course, you're absolutely right! I had a '41 Roadmaster with that exact mark.
What I first thought to be an "A" preceeding the CW now appears more likely to be an "H" which would mean it is the three letters together; HCW.


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## npence (Jun 24, 2011)

one other Question why would it be a 41 victory bike if we hadnt even went to war yet. what is the number in front of the letter H in 47 the started using a dated serial number like yours if it said 7H it is a 1947.


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## thogsez (Jun 24, 2011)

The V for victory campaign first began from a speech given by the Prime Minister of Belgium in January of 1941. He suggested the use of the V across the world  be present everywhere as a show of strength and unity  and a constant reminder to the enemy.  This was broadcast on the BBC and quickly flourished across Great Britain. Churchill was credited for spreading its popularity.  The US began using it to show support and solidarity to Britain and all of the occupied countries world wide. The first use of this propaganda occurred in August 1941 in the form of rubber stamps manufactured in NYC and sold across the country.  People stamped their outgoing mail with the V. Also during this time V stickers were displayed in the front windows of homes. As the war progressed the "Vs" could be found everywhere.  Store fronts, car windows, lapel pins, and of course, bicycles. After the war there was no need for the campaign and its use dwindled. 
Knowing that nearly all bike production ceased in 1942, I assumed the year.


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 24, 2011)

The Morse code for V: dot dot dot dash on the front fender is a nice touch!


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## thogsez (Jun 24, 2011)

Andrew Gorman said:


> The Morse code for V: dot dot dot dash on the front fender is a nice touch!




Yes! I really like it as well.


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 24, 2011)

I associate those Alemite oil ports as prewar, could still have been incorporated postwar, but haven't seen em.


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## thogsez (Jun 24, 2011)

I checked the Huffman serial number data base here on the Cabe and found a couple of other 1941 bikes ending with HCW, an otherwise seemingly rare suffix. The first 2 numbers 40 which left me to,  once again,  ASSUME a late '40 manufacture date.


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## thogsez (Jun 24, 2011)

Here's a photo of a Huffman from a WWII US Army technical manual.  Looks identical. I also read that the curved downtube  was discontinued in favor of the straight one early in the war.


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## thogsez (Jun 24, 2011)

... And the later ones with the straight downtube. ..


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## 37fleetwood (Jun 24, 2011)

finally, I did run across this thread.
definitely 100% no doubt this is a Huffman.
now a quick discussion on how to tell the year.
1938-9 had a straighter down tube, 1940 has the welded on kick stand, I've never seen anything anyone has ever convincingly said was a 1943, either there weren't any, or there aren't very many, and 1944 and newer have several more subtle changes, which leaves your bike being a 1941-42 since it has the bolted on kick stand. there are a few more things, like the numbers stamped on the back of the fork crown, and using the Morrow hub to get a date.
very cool bike!


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## thogsez (Jun 25, 2011)

Thanks Scott! 
So Huffman continued  to produce heavy civilian bikes through out the war? I thought the government made it difficult to use steel without military purpose. I am very interested in learning more about this. ...
 This bike has a New Departure hub. The numbers behind the fork crown are a large "1" followed by a "2".
 Are you still collecting data?  If you don't already have the information you need, I would be pleased to offer any I can from this bike...
Thanks again!
-Doug


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## RMS37 (Jun 25, 2011)

Not that Cleveland Welding is in the running any longer for this bike but for clarification, the Cw stamp was not used by CWC until well after WW2. Up through 1946 the CWC serial numbers consisted of a letter followed by five numbers, occasionally with some secondary stampings. The two green bikes in the photograph are Westfield built rather than Huffman built which explains the different frame design with the straight down tube.


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## 37fleetwood (Jun 25, 2011)

Hey Doug,
too bad about the rear hub, it makes it more sure if you have the hub and the fork for confirmation. there seems to be no way to date a New Departure hub.
the 1  2 on your fork should indicate a January 1942 build date. there is a controversy over this but I've found that it usually is helpful. the 1 should indicate the build month, the 2 should be the year. some don't believe these numbers mean anything, to me it seems too coincidental that it works most of the time. one huge limiting factor is that many times frames are found without a fork, or on a restore people swap out the fork and then you can't tell.
as for the war time bikes, yes Huffman seems to have made heavy weight bikes all through the war. for a few years I had the only black out civilian Huffman I had seen, but since then there have been quite a few show up. look around on the forums and you will find them. I've kinda gone with a date of 1944 but it could be a '45. (again there is a controversy on Morrow dating). mine is full black out, there are a few with some pieces of chrome on them. mine had been repainted and isn't original paint but several of them are beautiful original paint bikes.
here are a few photos of my '44-'45


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## thogsez (Jun 25, 2011)

Fantastic bike Scott, a great piece of history too.
 So I wonder if they started using all black-out in '44?
Thank you very much for your time and information. It's valuable to me!
-Doug


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 25, 2011)

*Just my .02 speculation*

Hello,
I think the markings pertinent to the war were a customization from it's original owner or father and it's leading to the correlation that the bike was manufactured closer to (or during) WW2 than it is...basically, what's to say that it did not originate (and ridden) years before the USA's entry in battle and modified in the moment?
As a side, the fenders look non-original and of the Shelby type and not the McCauley shaped tips and they lack the signature Huffman pattern detail of the bicycles I am posting bookending the war for Americans...and attach at the rear frame a little high to line up with the bridge.
I highly doubt this bicycle was made during the war or post war as it does not have blackout hubs/components, appears as if it had a tank (from rubbings), and lacks the chunky aluminum stem of the postwar 1940's.
I believe your guard came about in 1940, which is my best speculation of build, maybe 1941, but the oil ports have me leaning earlier than later.
Note the both Huffmans I am attaching are badged for Firestone and in the case of the blue late prewar, not original stem and bars.  The tankless maroon is a 1945 from the Morrow hub dating and has blackout hubs.
I wish I had more examples to draw from as I love these bikes, but they are scarce.
Chris


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## 41OLDSTEED (Jan 8, 2012)

Here is a Question for the Experts...I Have a Question on the seat post collar...What Date Did they start using that Wraped Collar setup...I have an Earlier Huffman that has just the smooth brazed seatpost clamp-bolt...I Believe it to be a 1940-41 as it has remnants of a welded on kickstand bracket that was cut off I think...I Know this Post is a Little Old but so are these Bikes...I also am getting a 1941-42 Western Flyer with the same Huffman Frame...


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