# Saddle Development 1900s to 1940s Patents and Ads



## Miq (Feb 20, 2020)

I've been trying to figure out how the saddles on bikes developed over time, especially in the early 1900's.  I have not collected hundreds of vintage bikes, so I'm trying to figure it using patents and ads.

Please add any ads, catalogs, patents, brochures, etc that help date some of the common designs.  I concentrated on Troxel, Mesinger, Brooks, and Persons patents but I bet there are others I should consider.

There are some very early patents for saddles from the late 1800s that are super old timey and the TOC guys probably are familiar with them.  Saw some bizarre designs with completely separate pads for each butt cheek.  








You can also see in the Provoost patent above that there are springs in the front (nose) and rear of each side.

Once they started making single pan seats the designs quickly evolved into the 3 spring seats with a spring in the nose and two in the rear.

*3 spring design from Brampton 1902*




*3 spring design from Mesinger 1904*




*3 spring design from Troxel 1908*





Then there's a period of time where the saddle makers are experimenting with better spring arrangements for the rear springs.

*In 1909 Mesinger gets close to the basic counter acting spring pairs* but the design looks too complicated and expensive.  The link 23 and 26 is whacko but you see the basic form of a nose coil spring and helical spring pairs in the rear.  One helical spring 18 is compressing while the other 19 is expanding.




*Persons is close in 1910 too*.  The top spring 21 resting on the cross bar 24 is kind of like Mesinger above.



*and even more complicated in 1911*




*Then in 1912 Troxel nails the rear opposing springs with this patent.*  The nose spring is missing but the rear springs are fully developed.




*Persons is still working on some interesting designs in 1912 and 1914*







*This one from Persons in 1914 is pretty cool with the compression spring wound around the expansion spring* formed from the same spring steel rod.




*Brooks is working on overly complicated designs in 1914 too.*




*Mesinger is getting closer in 1915 but its a single long spring*




*Persons gets the opposing springs figured out in 1916 walking a close line to the 1912 Troxel patent.*



*more variation from Persons in 1916.*




*In 1923 Mesinger shows this design with a more formed platform 13 between the opposed springs and a nose coil at the front.*




*In 1935 Linder at Troxel patents the classic Troxel long spring design with a nose coil and two opposed rear springs connected in the middle.*  Notice how the bottom springs are attached to the center rods by threading on at 11, not with nuts like the designs above.







In 1937 Hayes at Troxel shows the Tool Box Saddle design. 




*In 1942 Kalter at Troxel shows the oval shaped nose coil and the bell shaped bottom springs*



*And also the cupped spring attachment*


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## Miq (Feb 20, 2020)

1903 Pope? sold by American Cycle Mfg.




Pope Mfg 1904




1916 Morley Bros



























1940s Troxel




1944 Troxel






1946 Troxel 




1947 Troxel




1948 Troxel


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## Balloonoob (Feb 20, 2020)

Man this is a well organized thread. Watching this one for sure.


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## Miq (Feb 20, 2020)

Thanks @Balloonoob !!

I can start to put model names to some of the designs.

*The Morley Bros 1916 catalog has the Persons Apollo*



that's the "compound spring within a spring" in the 1914 patent but a slightly different frame.




*The Spartan and Imperial*




are like the Persons 1912 patent




*Troxel Motor Bike*



is like the 1912 Troxel patent with a real nose coil spring


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## ccmerz (Feb 21, 2020)

Please be seated! When it comes to saddles, nothing comes close to the complex engineering and beauty of this part of the bicycle. After all, when you sit on it, it's first impressions that make an impact!


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## Miq (Feb 21, 2020)

Well said @ccmerz !!  There was a lot of thought and design effort put into saddles over the decades.  Here's some more models with their design patents:

*Troxel Tool Box Saddle*  (from @Balloonatic restored saddle sale)



*Jeweled reflector and metal clip just like the 1937 Troxel Hayes patent.* 





*End of the war ads (1944) shows the** two Troxel Kalter designs from the early 40s*.




*Ovalized nose coil and bell shaped lower springs in this one.*






*And the simpler design with single rear springs and bell shaped cup*.


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## Miq (Feb 21, 2020)

*Earlier 1936 Troxel Faulhaber Tool Box patent.  Different metal clip with jeweled reflector.


*


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## Miq (Feb 21, 2020)

*Mesinger Crash Tabs in 1940*





*Persons Crash Rail in 1950*


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## Miq (Feb 21, 2020)

From @filmonger



 




1900




from @charnleybob 





From @Krakatoa 
(around 1915)










1940 Troxel Ad touting new models with Oval Nose Coils


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## Miq (Feb 21, 2020)




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## Miq (Feb 22, 2020)

Summary rules of thumb I'm trying out.  Please let me know if there are any contradictions to these:

*3 spring designs start in the early 1900s and variations of them are still used today.*







*The early attempts (1909-1910) at creating a compound spring suspension had the compression springs above the U-shaped bar that the expansion springs are mounted to.*






*In 1912 Troxel shows the compound spring arrangement that most other makers eventually copy.  "Motor Bike" deep pan saddles with compound springs on a single U-shaped bar start showing up from most makers in the 19-teens.






In 1923 Mesinger shows a design with a formed platform between the compound springs




In 1935 Troxel shows bottom expansion springs that thread onto the U-shaped bar.  Previous to this design, all saddles used nuts to secure the expansion springs to the U-shaped bar (at 11).*




*In the early 1940s Troxel starts producing models with a formed platform between the springs (like Mesinger 1923 patent), bell shaped lower expansion springs, and an oval nose coil.  Mesinger is also using bell shaped expansion springs in the early 40s.*







*
The early 1940s is also when the bell shaped cup started being used by Troxel*




*I hope this helps people get a handle on the different design elements that were developed over these years.  There are lots of other makers that produced variations of these saddles and their own unique designs, and maybe there are exceptions I've never seen, but this should get you pretty close to the right date the designs started being used by the big manufacturers.*


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## Miq (Feb 22, 2020)

@rustjunkie @STRADALITE @bobcycles @GTs58 @ccdc.1 @rennfaron @mr.cycleplane @SirMike1983 @3-speeder @Krakatoa @piercer_99 @Arfsaidthebee @rollfaster @Balloonoob @bricycle @vincev 

Can you guys poke holes in these rules?  Am I missing something from your experience?


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## piercer_99 (Feb 22, 2020)

not sure about the 'rules'. 

I do know that of all the saddles I have ridden on, perhaps the most comfortable one is the early 1940's Troxel design with the bell cups.
At first it is a really weird feel, as it seemingly moves with each movement of the rider, front to back and side to side.  The saddle on my bride's 1941 Elgin is this style and the ride is unforgettable.  Whichever way your weight is on the saddle, it moves to absorb it and there is no transfer from the road up through the saddle.







the faded Elgin stamped logo in place of Troxel.


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## piercer_99 (Feb 22, 2020)

Very similar, but not quite as absorbing, is the Troxel motor bike saddle on my 1918 Pierce, while possessing a lot of the same ride similarities, the front doesn't absorb as much of the ride as the 1940's version does.  While it is very close, the 40's saddle is slightly better at the ride.

On this model, the double spring at the attachment point, on the lower saddle frame affords more flex than the single lower spring frame model does on my late 20's version on the Westfield. (in the background)


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## Miq (Feb 22, 2020)

@piercer_99 That saddle on your wife's bike looks insanely springy.  It seems like it could move in a bunch of directions.  The design in 1912 that Troxel patented, like on your Troxels above, put both of the springs on the same rod and tied the middle of them to the seat frame. This limits the side to side movement of the saddle compared to your wife's saddle.  Thanks for pointing that out.

I bet riders like @tripple3 and @SKPC could comment on comfort and durability of a few of these designs too.


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## piercer_99 (Feb 22, 2020)

I also have a late 20's ladies Elgin Troxel long spring that is in excellent shape, I will get some photos of it.

It is for my 27 ladies Elgin.


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## piercer_99 (Feb 23, 2020)

Elgin branded Troxel,  late 1920's.


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## Miq (Feb 23, 2020)

@piercer_99 that saddle is in great shape!


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## SKPC (Feb 24, 2020)

Most excellent review of _bicycle saddle designs_ from the early 19th century into the 50's MIq!
This Persons below has a neat nose spring coil design with three different solutions to the rear design of the seat. I am sure heavy.
I like it though as it is very moto.  The Design in Fig 2. would have sported a total of 7 springs on the seat!




And in terms of comfort, note these early 1900's minimalist saddles which were the precursors to the newest saddle designs you see today on modern machines. Garford seemed to have had it going on in terms of pan shape/design and anatomic considerations 1st. while losing considerable poundage at the same time.  The big triple-spring seats with wide, long pans and high weights were also very comfortable and really dominated during the teens/20's motobike era it seems and stuck around a long time during the 26" balloon era.


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Feb 24, 2020)

Lots of good information in this thread. Thanks for the hard work @Miq !


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## rustNspokes (Feb 24, 2020)

Brooks basically nailed the leather racing saddle design from the start. There isn't really much difference from a 1890 brooks  b16 and something like the b17 that you can buy today.


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## Miq (Feb 24, 2020)

True enough @rustNspokes !  

Brooks site says John Boultbee Brooks' horse died and he bought a bike to ride instead.  The bike saddle was so painful that he vowed to make a more comfortable one.  

He was a prolific inventor!  There are 111 results in Google patents for him.  








From their site  Brooks


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## Miq (Feb 24, 2020)

SKPC said:


> Most excellent review of _bicycle saddle designs_ from the early 19th century into the 50's MIq!
> This Persons below has a neat nose spring coil design with three different solutions to the rear design of the seat. I am sure heavy.
> I like it though as it is very moto.  The Design in Fig 2. would have sported a total of 7 springs on the seat!
> 
> View attachment 1145185




Thanks @SKPC !  I love this design too.  Almost every bolt hole is a slot that could be adjusted.      This thing would have been a nightmare to dial in, but once you did...


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## Miq (Feb 24, 2020)

Nice example of Troxel's bell shaped cup design in @zedsn 's ladies saddle.  Bet that's comfy like @piercer_99 's Elgin's saddle.


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## Miq (Feb 24, 2020)

*In the early 1930's Mesinger started patenting designs incorporating a horizontal spring "mattress" style support system.* 
We've seen some of these "mattress" saddles on New World lightweights from the 40s.











 @mr.cycleplane


 @1motime


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## GTs58 (Feb 24, 2020)

Geeze, look at all those springs.  :eek:


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## IngoMike (Jul 26, 2020)

I would like to see a Crocodile saddle.....


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## IngoMike (Jan 25, 2021)

Still waiting for a crocodile saddle to appear.....


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## Miq (Jan 25, 2021)

How can you beat the comfort of blocky, rough, crocodile scales?  The enviable owners, and their families, may never give them up. You will have to be patient and lucky.


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## SoBayRon (May 13, 2021)

Great thread, @Miq. Helped me to identify a saddle and
I learned a lot just in the first read through. Thanks for the efforts!


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## dnc1 (May 13, 2021)

What remains of my 1898 "Quadrant" (Coventry, 
England) saddle.
Ladies pattern model.
It features 20 individual,  small, coil springs and square section rails requiring a special clamp.
Top view.....






Bottom view.....




Side view.....




It's missing the original top cover.
Here's what the only other known example looks like......




I've never seen another design like it.

Great thread @Miq.

And apologies,  I can find neither patent or ads that clearly show the saddle construction and design.


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## Miq (May 13, 2021)

Thanks @SoBayRon and @dnc1!  

The individual coil springs in your TOC saddle are great @dnc1.  They would make some of the mattresses I’ve slept on jealous.  Thank you for the pics and info about it.  

I love seeing all the different methods people have designed for loosely coupling your rear end to two wheels.  We’ve been trying different solutions for a couple of centuries now, so there’s lots of different approaches.


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## Miq (Oct 12, 2021)

1930 Troxel Parts List



Interesting to see how the parts were named.  Cushion Spring vs Spiral Spring...


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