# Indian? on EB



## Beads

Antique Indian Bicycle Skiptooth Morrow Coaster Brake Wooden Wheels  | eBay
					

Specifications: Morrow Coaster Brake, Wood Wheels, Skiptooth Chain. Our mission is to make bicycles accessible to people of all backgrounds. Speed : One.



					rover.ebay.com


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## bentwoody66

Let the MADNESS begin!!!!!!

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## stoney

What's there looks to be a pretty nice clean up. Nice paint and Indian script. Head badge looks good, long reach stem and other hardware. All should look pretty good.


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## Freqman1

I don't want to hunt those head cups or fenders!


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## bikewhorder

Freqman1 said:


> I don't want to hunt those head cups or fenders!






...and the tank!


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## fordmike65

bikewhorder said:


> View attachment 1142781
> ...and the tank!



Indian decal on downtube=no tanky


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## bikewhorder

fordmike65 said:


> Indian decal on downtube=no tanky


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## Jesse McCauley

Is that a "normal" effect on these Indians for the cups to have ever so slightly encroached upon and crushed the badge?


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## Kansan

Hi Jesse, prolly common with the shorter head tube lengths. Here’s a few that are touching, with not much space if any b/t badge and cup(s). And one with ample space. 
I’m thinking bad placement fit on the EB bike during build? caused the bend at the top of head badge.


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## cyclingday




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## bentwoody66

Kansan said:


> Hi Jesse, prolly common with the shorter head tube lengths. Here’s a few that are touching, with not much space if any b/t badge and cup(s). And one with ample space.
> I’m thinking bad placement fit on the EB bike during build? caused the bend at the top of head badge.
> 
> View attachment 1142869
> 
> View attachment 1142870
> 
> View attachment 1142871



I notice the cups on the last photo being faceted like the ebay bike. Does that tell what year it is?

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## Freqman1

I think @47jchiggins cold probably give a better answer but with the spilt bottom bracket and V cups I think pre-1920. Except for tank and light it originally looked like the bike Bikewhorder posted. This one seems to be getting some fairly serious action. Be interesting to see where it lands. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1

Five days left and $3200. That is strong coin for a bike that is going to require serious $$$ to get right. I was called stupid by a forum member for spending $3k on this one






Took about 20 hours to get the green, orange, and white off it but I'm not feeling too stupid about it! Corrections--I actually paid $3500 and was called a "Sucker" by a well known member here who retracted his post when he found out I bought it. V/r Shawn


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## stoney

Freqman1 said:


> Five days left and $3200. That is strong coin for a bike that is going to require serious $$$ to get right. I was called stupid by a forum member for spending $3k on this one
> 
> View attachment 1145163
> 
> Took about 20 hours to get the green, orange, and white off it but I'm not feeling too stupid about it! V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 1145165




Great looking bike Shawn. I would be proud of that turn out. I think you made the right move.


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## Beads

Early sprint out, now the peloton is all back together. Waiting for the sprint to the finish....$$$$


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## bikewhorder

Given that its being sold by the "community cycling center"  I can't help but wonder if someone donated this bike and the other antique bikes listed without knowing what they were worth.


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## redline1968

Lol


fordmike65 said:


> Indian decal on downtube=no tanky


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## fordmike65

redline1968 said:


> Lol



Just going by what I've seen and literature on these. I am by no means an expert on any bike, much less Indians.


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## Freqman1

fordmike65 said:


> Indian decal on downtube=no tanky




I agree Mike. I've spoke to a few other knowledgeable Indian folks and this seems to be the consensus. The only bikes I've seen with a tank and a downtube decal were ones where the tank was added later. V/r Shawn


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## redline1968

Bs


Freqman1 said:


> I agree Mike. I've spoke to a few other knowledgeable Indian folks and this seems to be the consensus. The only bikes I've seen with a tank and a downtube decal were ones where the tank was added later. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1

If even one person agreed with you then I would say maybe but so far that has not happened.


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## redline1968

Oh so many holes on your " theory " its like swiss cheese.... birds of a feather...


Freqman1 said:


> If even one person agreed with you then I would say maybe but so far that has not happened.


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## Freqman1

redline1968 said:


> Oh so many holes on your " theory " its like swiss cheese.... birds of a feather...



Please enlighten us then with some evidence to the contrary.


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## cyclingday

I concur with the consensus on this debate.
I’d have my doubts, if not for the factory literature that basically corroborates that the Indian script decal was applied to the downtube of the frame only on the non electrically equipped models, and would be applied to the sides of the tank only on the equipped models.
Is it possible that a customer bought a non equipped bike, and added the tank/battery compartment aftermarket?
Sure!
Why not?
But then you would see the Indian script decals on both the tank and the downtube as clear evidence that this was the case with that particular bike.


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## redline1968

Let’s get this straight out  jealousy is clouding your simple thinking......your the one with the burden for proof..... that bikes missing the fenders and who’s to say the tank isn’t missing as well.  How can one base a assessment of what was a hundred years ago and say this was so..

   ( 1) a company builds bikes and specifically places decals on frames  to indicate no tank.  Why?   Placing a decal on later is a extra cost to them. Suppose there was a tank bike left and bike shops gets a non tank order. Oh I know... wait for a non tank frame  to show up and lose a sale!... this Makes no sense.  They’er  in for a maximum profit and sales..  it makes more sense to just place decals on all when made then install the tank when ordered.  
The tank was a option..That way it’s done and ready to sell   

  (2)  Suppose the order comes in for a tank bike and the dealer has a non tank bike in stock but the accessory on the shelf .. oh ..let’s see..wait till a non script frame comes in... in a couple of weeks or month....lose a sale... :0 I think not.. suppose the assembler puts a tank on a non script frame it’s sent out. 

(3).  Advertisement of the product.. what company wouldn’t place decals on their products.


Still as I said  the burden of documented proof is yours..


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## Xcelsior

......


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## Beads

OK I started this thread and believe me I know very little to nothing about Indian bikes. But I always like to educate myself and learn what I can. And what I read in this thread and understand from Redline 1968  to me is:
1) The "factory"  put the decal on in one place only, depending if the "factory" was building a tank bike(with decals on the tank on a non scripted frame) or non tank bike(scripted frame).
2) The "dealer" did not install decals but could add a tank(with decals) to a non a tank bike(scripted frame) 
3) So a "dealer" installed tank bike would have decals in both places because all he would have access to are scripted frames.The non scripted frames already had tanks on them from the "factory".
4) @ Redline1968 "suppose the assembler puts a tank on a non script frame it’s sent out." Did you mean "scripted frame"? Easily "could of" happened?

Sorry I use the word "decal" loosely as I do not know if they were hand painted, silkscreened or a decal. (sign shop background)

Please educate me some more, but I am sure there are other threads on this topic. Still a great bike that doesn't show up to often.

I am more into pre-war Huffman/Dayton bikes, but love to be educated. As we all know history does change with new findings, knowledge and education.
Thanks Bill


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## Freqman1

redline1968 said:


> Let’s get this straight out  jealousy is clouding your simple thinking......your the one with the burden for proof..... that bikes missing the fenders and who’s to say the tank isn’t missing as well.  How can one base a assessment of what was a hundred years ago and say this was so..
> 
> ( 1) a company builds bikes and specifically places decals on frames  to indicate no tank.  Why?   Placing a decal on later is a extra cost to them. Suppose there was a tank bike left and bike shops gets a non tank order. Oh I know... wait for a non tank frame  to show up and lose a sale!... this Makes no sense.  They’er  in for a maximum profit and sales..  it makes more sense to just place decals on all when made then install the tank when ordered.
> The tank was a option..That way it’s done and ready to sell
> 
> (2)  Suppose the order comes in for a tank bike and the dealer has a non tank bike in stock but the accessory on the shelf .. oh ..let’s see..wait till a non script frame comes in... in a couple of weeks or month....lose a sale... :0 I think not.. suppose the assembler puts a tank on a non script frame it’s sent out.
> 
> (3).  Advertisement of the product.. what company wouldn’t place decals on their products.
> 
> 
> Still as I said  the burden of documented proof is yours..





No jealousy here my friend. So far not one person that has weighed in on this has said that is an original paint tank. You forgot to list the most likely scenario here-- (4) Suppose a collector comes across a pretty nice original Indian and wants to enhance it and has a tank painted and distressed to match the bike.

BTW I had pics of that bike over a year before you bought it and didn't think the tank was right when I first saw it. WE believe you are the simple thinker here Mark. It took me at least four tries before I got you to understand Hendee did not produce this bike so obviously your well of knowledge is not too deep. My, and others, comments about this bike were just that--about the bike. You have decided to make this personal with the name calling an innuendo. If you want to believe this is an original paint tank and original to the bike that's fine but no one else believes it.


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## Xcelsior

We should all be respectful of each other. One of the problems here is that in search of information, members post comments back and forth, sometimes getting off track and/or negative. This creates confusion for other members wanting to be educated who will get misguided and take information the wrong way. Therefore down the road they will use incorrect information now as fact when it is not.  If there are discussions which lead to feuding, let’s keep that in private with PM messages or create another thread for boxing matches.  I’m only trying to keep others who may be new or interested in this hobby safe from incorrect misleading informations.  Try and be a little professional about this rather than being undereducated experts please. Or just ignore all of it like I have tried to do for years as it is pretty sickening.  Believe me I am no authority, JUST MY 2¢ for all BIRDS OF A FEATHER.


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## Rust_Trader

So is everyone retracting their bid??? Let me get a deal.


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## highship

I'm not a big fan of the drama that happens around here and I try not to get involved so all I'm going to say about the posted bike is that it is sweet and I would love to be the owner. With that said, this has peaked my interest in finding out more about my Indian. I have what I believe to be a mid to late 20's Indian.  At first, based just on the personal history of this bike  I thought that the bike wasn't originally equipped with a tank. I did however always question the scratches on the back of the head tube. Looked to me like the could have been caused by a tank. The bike does not have a "decal" on the down tube. Any opinions on whether you think this Indian originally came with a tank? Could those scratches be from a tank? Maybe just a basket... what do you all think?
Also, I'm aware that there are some things on this bike that are not OG so please don't beat me up to bad.


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## Xcelsior

Check the back of the rear seat tube for wear from the strap clamp placement  between the top joints and the the lower tube.


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## Xcelsior

most likely if there is wear to the front, there would be evidence of a clamp on the seat tube. Or maybe not, but a good place to look.


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## Xcelsior

I had a pope from that same era which originally had a cigar tank. About a little better condition than your Indian. It had evidence of tank bracket and strap wear on both the front and rear mounting areas.  Only other differences between the two bikes was the badge , aluminum cage Westfield stamped pedals and the chain ring.  All parts being Pope Westfield on my bike.


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## bentwoody66

highship said:


> I'm not a big fan of the drama that happens around here and I try not to get involved so all I'm going to say about the posted bike is that it is sweet and I would love to be the owner. With that said, this has peaked my interest in finding out more about my Indian. I have what I believe to be a mid to late 20's Indian. At first, based just on the personal history of this bike I thought that the bike wasn't originally equipped with a tank. I did however always question the scratches on the back of the head tube. Looked to me like the could have been caused by a tank. The bike does not have a "decal" on the down tube. Any opinions on whether you think this Indian originally came with a tank? Could those scratches be from a tank? Maybe just a basket... what do you all think?
> Also, I'm aware that there are some things on this bike that are not OG so please don't beat me up to bad.
> 
> View attachment 1147031
> 
> View attachment 1147032



Could maybe be from an acetylene light bracket also? I'm just guessing. 

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## cyclingday

The evidence so far, makes it look like your bike did originally come with a tank.
No Indian script on the downtube, and those scratches up front.
Jay/X is right about the strap/bracket up on the seat tube.
To access the battery compartment on the equipped models, you had to loosen that bracket and then swing the nose of the tank out, to pull the end cap off.
This action always caused some scratching in those two areas of the frame.
Especially back where that strap type clamp bracket is.
It’s possible that a piece of felt was used to protect the paint in this area, much like what was used for the pad lock frame clamps.
But, I would be surprised if your frame doesn’t show some evidence of that bracket having been in there at some point in time.

Super nice bike!
Be sure, and let us know, what you find out.


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## Pedals Past




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## Rust_Trader

Pedals Past said:


> View attachment 1147382
> 
> View attachment 1147383
> 
> View attachment 1147384





Your nice bike shouldn’t  have a tank!!! Take it off and send it to me...


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## catfish

bikewhorder said:


> View attachment 1142781
> ...and the tank!




I have all of those parts.


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## bentwoody66

catfish said:


> I have all of those parts.



Is there anything you dont have Fish?????

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## Beads

bentwoody66 said:


> Is there anything you dont have Fish?????
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk




“A Frame”. )


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## redline1968

Oh i see..you mean where the paint sinks in (only when it was newly painted or closeand leaves a tell tail impression) when the clamp is used for the tank.. only the rear has a clamp so it should have a mark...something like this....   the front is scuffed  since its secured with a lip. But i think this example will suffice..


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## redline1968

Oh i forgot the other side. Oops.


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## highship

if there was some sort of light on the head tube wouldn't it have gone all the way around the frame? That would be over the head badge. As far as the seat tube, here it is... I don't see any indication of a strap.


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## highship

I'm pretty sure I have seen different Indians with the tanks strapped to the upper and/or lower cross bars. We're the tanks supported differently over the years?


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## highship

redline1968 said:


> Oh i see..you mean where the paint sinks in (only when it was newly painted or closeand leaves a tell tail impression) when the clamp is used for the tank.. only the rear has a clamp so it should have a mark...something like this....   the front is scuffed  since its secured with a lip. But i think this example will suffice..View attachment 1147666
> 
> View attachment 1147667
> 
> View attachment 1147668
> 
> View attachment 1147669



Any close ups of the front of the tank?


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## Freqman1

highship said:


> I'm pretty sure I have seen different Indians with the tanks strapped to the upper and/or lower cross bars. We're the tanks supported differently over the years?



Depends on the year. V/r Shawn


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## highship

Freqman1 said:


> Depends on the year. V/r Shawn



Do you know when they were attached top and bottom vs each end?


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## Freqman1

highship said:


> Do you know when they were attached top and bottom vs each end?




The lieterature would indicate the change occured in 1920. 1916-1919 appears to have had the hanging tank (straps top and bottom) and 1920-early 30s? had the footed end cap and end strap. V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday

It’s hard to say, but I do see a bit of the telltale line or imprint from where that bracket may have been.





Here is an example of how it looked when attached.
The imprint line on your bike looks to be in about the same spot.


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## redline1968

Yep the early ones had 2 straps on the top and bottom.. later had a small bracket on the rear and a small v shaped tab in front..


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## redline1968

As for the tank the one picture you can see the crackle I. The paint on this bike was buffed out ..on the tank and upper lower part of the frame burning through in spots and discoloring the decal on the lower tube...sad but true...


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## Xcelsior

There are two different positions of straps on the early pre 20 tanks and then the brackets style later


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## Xcelsior

redline1968 said:


> Yep the early ones had 2 straps on the top and bottom.. later had a small bracket on the rear and a small v shaped tab in front..



This is not the case with all teens Indian cigar tanks. Please check your info before posting or do more research first.


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## redline1968

Excuse me..lol


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## highship

cyclingday said:


> It’s hard to say, but I do see a bit of the telltale line or imprint from where that bracket may have been.View attachment 1147818
> View attachment 1147817
> Here is an example of how it looked when attached.
> The imprint line on your bike looks to be in about the same spot.



I checked it out a little closer... the line wraps all the way around, you can see it in the picture from the front. It's more like a line in the frame tube. It continues beyond where the bracket would touch. I used this one for comparison. I sure would love to find a tank either way!


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