# 1915 Iver Johnson?  Serial Number help, model identification



## tailhole

Hi, I just picked this bike up from a guy that said he'd had it for 20 years and he had bought it from a shop that had it on the wall 20 years before.  The handlebars & seat had been replaced with the ones shown (the seat has a rubber Messinger cover on it).  The serial number is 11953 and is stamped on the bb.  Any clues on this one?  Head badge is missing, but it has what look like 3 mounting holes, the lower one is centered, the upper holes are around the sides.  The wheels are steel clad wood with the Morrow hub shell emptied.  All spokes seem tight and are present, the front tire even holds air.  Any info on the correct year and model would be helpful, also want to replace the badge and would like to know where to get tires/tubes for it.  Thanks in advance.
-Scott[SUB][/SUB]


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## Iverider

Most of the time the serial number is posted on the right side of the seat tube (just below were the seatpost inserts) 

Just for fun, I'd repost this question in this thread

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...-gathering-place-for-dating-IJ-bicycles/page9

It's kind of the information thread for Iver Johnson. It's kind of disorganized, but you'll generally get an answer pretty quickly.

From the hip, my Iver Arch Truss is serial # 256466 and is considered to be 1915ish. There is a ghost list out there maintained by Bill Smith of The Wheelmen. If you send him a nice email with the serial # he'll be able to tell you more than most people. Check the wheelmen website for more information.

By the way, my bike shares the same paint scheme as yours (what little is left of it)

If you could email me some detail photos, I'd appreciate it greatly.

PM me for my email address.

Thanks!


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## bud poe

*Congrats on the score!
There are many helpful threads on here regarding replacement 28" singletube tire options.  There are even modern rims that take modern tires with the same profile, I believe the rims are "velocity P-35's" or something like that.  Just use the search bar and you should find several threads...
As for the year, there is also someone on here starting an Iver Johnson serial # chart, hopefully they will chime in to help you...
The headbadge you'll have to get lucky and/or search ebay.  Place a "wanted to buy" ad in the classified section here, you never know!
I'd be interested in the tires you have there if you are going to replace them, PM or email me if you'd like to sell them...
Good luck with the bike!*


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## Iverider

There is currently a badge with the red celluloid insert on eBay. They do appear from time to time.
Funny because a lot of the finds posted on the cabe are missing the badges.


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## 66TigerCat

Nice score, really like the paint scheme. On the down side the fork seems bent.


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## dfa242

Great bike - I love that paint color as well.  I'm not an expert, but I think it's possible you may be missing a digit on the serial number.  I have a circa 1907 truss frame with serial no. 124660, and since they ran sequentially, yours would be pre-1900 if that number is correct.  Again, I could be wrong, but let's have another look at the number just to be sure.


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## tailhole

Thanks for the info. The serial number is correct, haven't heard back from the Wheelmen yet (I just registered lastnight). The guy I bought it from said 1915, but I did see a Wheelmen thread with a bb 5 digit serial number starting with 3 and it was an 1897 I think, so this might be at least that old. Very excited. I put some new rims (laced to old hubs & a saddle on it lastnight so I could ride it & took a shot of it this morning. Fork might be bent, but rode great.  Paint doesn't seem original, but must have been done 40+ years ago according to the seller. Will keep you posted. Thanks again for all your help.
-Scott


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## tailhole

Thanks for the info. The serial number is correct, haven't heard back from the Wheelmen yet (I just registered lastnight). The guy I bought it from said 1915, but I did see a Wheelmen thread with a bb 5 digit serial number starting with 3 and it was an 1897 I think, so this might be at least that old. Very excited. I removed the fenders (for a rattle-proof ride), put on some new rims (laced to old hubs & a saddle on it lastnight so I could ride it & took a shot of it tgis morning. Paint doesn't seem original, but must have been done 40+ years ago according to the seller. Will keep you posted. Thanks again for all your help.
-Scott


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## dfa242

Cool!  I have a ladies safety with serial no. 38714, believed to be from 1895-99 so you must indeed have an old one there - good for you!


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## pelletman

I don't think that is an Iver Johnson, their truss frames didn't look like that, and the sprocket doesn't look IJ to me either


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## lobsterboyx

EDIT: I found Phil's interpretation of Bill Smith's research:



RMS37 said:


> *Iver Johnson production dates by serial number*
> 
> _Based solely on data collected from Bill Smith’s posts on the Wheelmen webpage I have constructed a timeline for Iver Johnson serial numbers. Among the postings on that site, Mr. Smith identified the year of manufacture for several Iver Johnson bicycles based on their serial numbers. I have used those posted serial numbers/dates to infer the serial number breaks at 100,000 unit intervals. Please understand that this is an approximation of where those breaks might occur and use this information as it was intended, that is to give a very basic model to help attribute an Iver to roughly the decade it was built in and not to date any bike to the actual year of construction. If you desire to date a bike more closely, Mr Smith has provided contact information on the Wheelmen site and seems to be very helpful with regard to dating individual bikes based on his collected data. I’m sure additional information he might receive from our inquiries will also help add to his model and its accuracy.
> 
> Mr. Smith relates the early history of the Iver Johnson company and gives 1890 as the year for the beginning of bicycle production. From that point through 1896, Iver Johnson constructed bicycles for the Lovell Diamond company. In 1896, the Iver Johnson company first began building bicycles under their own name and in 1900 the absorbed the remains of the Lovell Diamond company and began branding their production under both names.
> 
> It appears that the serial numbers were stamped and recorded in a simple numeric progression over the years, assumedly beginning with 1 and ending at around 610,000 in 1941 or early 1942. It is not clear if “Old No. 1” should be attributed to 1890 or 1896 but enough data is published on the Wheelman site to make the following generalizations.
> _
> The *100,000*th bicycle was probably laid down just after the turn of the century. The bicycle market was very volatile in the first few years of the twentieth century so simply apportioning  production between two serial numbers gives 1904 as the 100,000 break but in reality production during this time period as during any other could vary from year to year by a substantial amount due to general economic conditions or decisions made at the factory. Considering the data points available from this time period I would think the accuracy on this break is about plus or minus two years.
> 
> The *200,000*th bicycle, again determined by apportioning production evenly over a five-year gap, would have been produced during 1912.
> 
> The *300,000*th bicycle would have been produced in 1916 or 1917; Bill’s data links the serial number 292617 to 1916
> 
> The *400,000*th bicycle produced should fall between 1923 and 1924. This is the largest gap in numbers and the date was arrived at by simply dividing the period between my placement of 300,000 and 500,000 in two.
> 
> The *500,000*th bicycle was likely made during 1930 or 1931 as Bill has listed 505785 and 505,768 as being part of the production for 1931.
> 
> I used 610,000 at the end of the line for production considering several bits of information. That would place the *600,000*th bike near the beginning of 1941.
> 
> _My main interest has become bicycle manufacturers and production during the prewar Balloon era. To that end, and again by simple division of estimated Iver Johnson production over the period of 1930 through early 1942, The earliest Balloon tired Iver Johnsons should clock in around 530,000 and the annual production between 1933 and the end of Iver Johnson production would be around 9,000 to 10,000 unit per year if the bikes were produced at an even rate during that time._








That sprocket looks exactly like the one on every iver ive owned.. so far about 4... 

I have a truss bar that look almost identical to that.. 






My iver is 283460 - im guessing 1914 or 1915


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## pelletman

Huh.  I guess I'm used to the early ones









  Sorry about that


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## tailhole

*Update from Mr. Bill Smith - the mystery continues*

So, Mr. Bill Smith was kind enough to answer my email about the serial number and trying to pinpoint a date of manufacture.  He said look again, there has to be another digit in the serial number, so I took this photo and sent it back.  He also said the model of my bike didn't arrive until 1915.  I sent a photo & pointed out how the truss bar, specifically the right side seems nearly straight or parallel with the upper bar (to the right side of the welded bar the joins the two in the middle).  Most Ivers I've seen photos of have this bar arcing downward more severely.  I'll let you know what he says.
-Scott

PS, I do realize this must be way more interesting to me than anyone else, but thought I'd update just in case.  Oh, I added some NOS Persons pedals & cork grips (they look new and out of place now, but they will be black from greasy fingers soon enough).  Probably have 20 miles on it since last Sunday.  Need to rebuild bottom bracket before I do much more.  Any tips?


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## saneens

*saneens*

Hi we have some Antique bicycles as well.

antiques silver items


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## dfa242

_"...I do realize this must be way more interesting to me than anyone else..."_

Actually, this is one of the things I find most interesting about this hobby - delving into the mysteries of the early, and especially the defunct manufacturers.  Please do keep us informed with your ongoning research into this cool bike.

Cheers,
Dean


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## tailhole

*This is what Bill Smith said.... still a mystery.*

Hi Scott

The number you gave me is for a 1892 Lovell Diamond bicycle. This frame style came out in 1915 as a Truss Bridge Roadster and was made till the end in 1941. In 1913 / 14 they relocated the serial numbers to the seat post tube. Your crank type is from 1914 - 1914. I'm lost???

Bill


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