# Help with Pierce chainless shaft drive restoration questions



## Mickeymike (Jul 22, 2015)

Hi guys. 

My dad has had this bike for many years. Was his great uncles and was in the barn back in Ohio. We think it's a 1890-1900 ish bike. Serial is 85410 any help dating it? 

Also he said everything is original. Forks don't look correct. And bars as others I have seen on the web. He changed the wheels in the 1980's so he could ride it. 

Brings me to my next question. Should I restore it? He said he painted it the green in the 70's. I took some acetone to it and it is bare metal underneath. He must have completely stripped it. No original paint or decals.

Plan: 
buff polish original chrome.
Re-pop white tires
Clean up original wood rims and re spoke
Re-pop pedals? Style?
Re-pop grips? Style?
Powdercoat frame black and get Pierce deal. 
I bought the missing emblem,....but it's the agnolia NY. I didn't know at the time.
Coat of polish out to mirror shine gear housing?


What are your thoughts guys?

Also my dad think this baby is uber rare. He thinks the only one alive is the one at the smithsonian. From what I've seen their are quite a few out there. What's this thing worth? 





















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## Freqman1 (Jul 22, 2015)

I wouldn't call it rare and this one needs a lot of help. I'm going to guess about 1905ish. Many of the early Pierce did not have decals. There was no chrome on these bikes-nickel plated. Bars, pedals, stem, and maybe seat aren't right. Something going on with the headset as well. That's about as far as I'm going to go but I'm sure others will chime in. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Jul 22, 2015)

Thx pal. Also wooden rims measure 25" in diameter, but all re-pop wheels seem to be 28 .? Do I have the wrong rims? 


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jul 23, 2015)

Correct wooden rims, headset and fork.
It will be expensive to restore.
Stem and proper handlebars are around $150-500.00.
Rat trap pedals are $275.00.
Proper era saddle is $375.00.
2- Reproduction 28x1-1/2" tubular single tube tires $300-350.00.
1- Pint 3-M adhesive glue $6.00
72- Double-butted stainless steel spokes and nipples $100.00


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jul 23, 2015)

Here is what we have so far......

Pierce serial numbers

55972 Special	Man's	c1898 - Collected by Dave Toppin
57365 Special Model 344 Chain driven cushion ( Flat Spring by Crank ) - Shawn - believed to be 1901/2….the cabe
60292 Racer Man’s - Collected by Dave Toppin
61758 ( stamped on Seat tube ) Tom ( Tommydale1950) The cabe
76088 Men’s Chainless - ( Jeff Powell ) Cushion frame, spring forks (no shackles), New Departure/P&F Corbin coaster brake, Christy saddleBadge: The Geo. N. Pierce Co., Buffalo
86133 Cushion Chain Driven - Thought to be 1901 ( Richard Smith )
87605 Cushion Shaft Drive ( Richard Smith )
96665 Ladies Chainless ( Jeff Powell ) Cushion frame, Spring forks w/shackles, Pierce New Departure coaster brake, Christy saddle
Badge: The Geo. N. Pierce Co., Buffalo
106877 Cushion Shaft Drive ( Richard Smith )
106877 Chainless	Men’s - collected by David Toppin - Again not sure if he is referring to Richards bike
135320 Cushion Chain driven model - believed to be a 1903/4? ( Will Cress ) Stamped on Seat tube
135320 Chainless - collected by David Toppin…Not sure if he is referring to Will’s or if this is another Model?
152026 Chain Driven - LuxLow Stamped on Dropout
165302 Man's	c1900 ….collected by David Toppin
165509 - Model 110 Special Racer ( Carey Williams ) stamped on dropout
165509 Special Racer	Man’s ..Collected by David Toppin - not sure if he is referring to Carey’s bike
166682 Model 121. Pierce Cycle Co, Buffalo badge. ( dfa252 ) stamped on dropout
170381 Racer Badge is Pierce Cycle Co., Buffalo ( Jeff Powell )
180173 Chain driven , Pace bike with Lap bell - type 4 Buffalo badge ( Gary - Gkeep ) The cabe
185513 ( stamped on drop out ) Tom ( Tommydale1950) The cabe
256237 Pierce SBBR ( Carlitos ) considered to be a 1922 model


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## Mickeymike (Jul 23, 2015)

I have a budget of about $1200 to restore this bike. Think it's doable ? What might it be worth when completed? 


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## Freqman1 (Jul 23, 2015)

Just gathering the correct parts may put you at that. Then there is nickel plating and paint-no powdercoat! I'm no expert on pricing these but I think by the time you finish there won't be much meat on the bone. Personally if I were looking to make the most money I'd just sell it like it is. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Jul 23, 2015)

I want it restored before my dad gets to old and passes. He's 78 now


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## Mickeymike (Jul 23, 2015)

I have a chromer / nickel plate or down in NC. I also have an auto body painter. But really basecoat clearcoat verse powdercoat? 

I already polished out The forks handlebars rear shock seat post all to a mirror like finish. Original nickel was actually in really good shape. Would rather preserve that and have it redone?


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## Mickeymike (Jul 23, 2015)

Sorry guys for spelling errors I'm using talk to text on my iPhone


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## kccomet (Jul 23, 2015)

dont powder coat it, if it has to be shiny paint it. the nickel looks great dont replate it. the bike looks pretty decent as is. you could sell the seat and pedals that are on it now to help with your funding. some period wood rims, pedals, seat, and bars and it would look pretty good. you can do that with your budget and not be buried in it. good luck, i love these family stories


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## Mickeymike (Jul 23, 2015)

I'm just gonna take a wild guess. These chainless shaft driven Pearson bicycles in restored rideable condition are generally worth. 3500-5500?


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## bricycle (Jul 23, 2015)

If you're gonna ride it, just buy some modern racer/rat trap pedals, a brooks saddle, repop grips on here (wrapped wood or Corkaline) and ride, ride, ride. Save the original wheels for when you sell it.


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## Mickeymike (Jul 23, 2015)

I see the regular chain ones sell on ebay for about $2200-$2800


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## bricycle (Jul 23, 2015)

the highest offer you get is what it's worth. (to someone)


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## Mickeymike (Jul 23, 2015)

I'm a vintage Japanese motorcycle guy. Haven't been offered anything yet. Had a few PM on the forum. No cash offers. I really just want to restore it. And maybe next year put it in ebay perhaps. My dad said he was offered $6k from a guy in Denver about 5 years ago. I think that was just a BS offer


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## Mickeymike (Jul 25, 2015)

Guys UPDATE.

So I tore the bike down. Just now I saw on the seat post clamp a little writing. Took some aircraft remover to it to remove the paint. Says PIERCE  PAT. Mar c-19?0 this is very odd. I checked it out with my jewelry loop @30x. That 3rd number doesn't look like a 0 because the last 0 is clear stamped. Could this be a 5? Did they repop these bikes in the 1950's? Any ideas?











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## Freqman1 (Jul 25, 2015)

My guess is a mis-formed "0" because these were never repo'd. Re: the prices on Ebay. What I have seen are asking prices. To see what something sells for go to "ended items sold" and see what it actually went for. The selling price is highly dependent on things like completeness, originality, and correct parts. Little things can make a big difference so make sure you do an apples-to-apples comparison. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Jul 25, 2015)

I found 


http://copakeauction.auctionflex.co...eiid=11207959&lso=pricedesc&pagenum=1&lang=En


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## Freqman1 (Jul 25, 2015)

Like I said apples-to-apples. That bike has all of the correct parts, has the desirable "Kelly" bars, is original, PLUS it is a full cushion model. There is a front fork listed here on the CABE with an asking price of $1000. V/r Shawn


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## bikewhorder (Jul 25, 2015)

I think $1200 would get done if you're not going for 100% perfect.  I would definitely not re plate any of the original parts, they look fine to me. Its already been messed with so just have some fun with it.


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## filmonger (Jul 26, 2015)

Great to see a nice survivor... Shawn is just attempting to explain the relative reality of value and I think he is correct. Giovanni is also doing the same in the parts dept. I think it is a nice bike and would be very cool as a rider. Brian is also pointing you in the right direction if you plan on riding it. I would say the date in your picture from the seat post clamp is saying 1900 - this does not necessarily date your bike though. I am going to add your bike to the serial number list we are collecting if that is OK. Does the hub have stamping? 

BUT - even though we do not know if the serial numbers have any relation to date of manufacture - i can tell you the your serial number is earlier than the one owned by Richard smith ( serial number 86133 ) He considers his to be a 1901 model .... But again we do not know this for sure as Shawn's Special has a serial number of 57365 and it is also considered to be a 1901 ( correction 1902 ). So at this point it is all still conjecture until we can pin down a few exact dates for Bicycles and serial numbers....


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jul 26, 2015)

Please post a photo of the brake arm side of the rear hub.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 26, 2015)

filmonger said:


> Great to see a nice survivor... Shawn is just attempting to explain the relative reality of value and I think he is correct. Giovanni is also doing the same in the parts dept. I think it is a nice bike and would be very cool as a rider. Brian is also pointing you in the right direction if you plan on riding it. I would say the date in your picture from the seat post clamp is saying 1900 - this does not necessarily date your bike though. I am going to add your bike to the serial number list we are collecting if that is OK. Does the hub have stamping?
> 
> BUT - even though we do not know if the serial numbers have any relation to date of manufacture - i can tell you the your serial number is earlier than the one owned by Richard smith ( serial number 86133 ) He considers his to be a 1901 model .... But again we do not know this for sure as Shawn's Special has a serial number of 57365 and it is also considered to be a 1901. So at this point it is all still conjecture until we can pin down a few exact dates for Bicycles and serial numbers....




Actually I believe my bike is a 1902. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Jul 27, 2015)

Maybe this can help date it. Took the green off, than black was under it, than maroon red. Is the final color

Has anyone seen these bikes in maroon red?


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## Mickeymike (Jul 27, 2015)

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## Mickeymike (Jul 27, 2015)

Any thoughts on the maroon red vs. gloss black? 


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## bricycle (Jul 27, 2015)

I don't believe they used red primer back then?


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## Freqman1 (Jul 27, 2015)

My 1902 catalog lists "bright carmine" and "light blue" as optional colors with black being standard. As a side note there is no striping or lettering on the frame of the '02s. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Jul 27, 2015)

Here's the front and rear hub.
They both say new departure









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## Mickeymike (Jul 27, 2015)

Thx freqman1 I'm guessing "bright carmine" is that color red. Awesome pal. My thoughts were this baby was gonna be black, but looks like I'm going bright carmine, wood rims, and white tires. Unless u guys have any thought?

Here's 1 I only have have one original tire. 










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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jul 27, 2015)

Cool script!
Sounds like a great color combo...
Please post complete side profile of the coaster brake arm side.
I can date it...


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## Freqman1 (Jul 27, 2015)

The rims were wood but either black or aluminum color as an option. My rims are Fairbanks and were painted the aluminum color with thin black and red pins on either side. The rims have oxidized to an olive color though. Original tires were either Dunlop or G. & J. according to the catalog. Various seats, bars, pedals, and cranks were available as options. Attached are a few detail pics of my bike. V/r Shawn


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jul 27, 2015)

A real beauty!


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## Mickeymike (Jul 28, 2015)

Here is the rear hub. 




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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jul 28, 2015)

Maybe 1899-1900


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## bricycle (Jul 28, 2015)

tire available?


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## Mickeymike (Jul 28, 2015)

You want to buy the old tire? Make an offer. I was just gonna put it on ebay 


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## Mickeymike (Jul 29, 2015)

Any input guys? I see these wright and Brooke's style seats on ebay. Will one of these pass the buck? 

I see the troxel seat I currently have is incorrect since Google says the company wasn't even started until 1915









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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jul 29, 2015)

Mickeymike said:


> Any input guys? I see these wright and Brooke's style seats on ebay. Will one of these pass the buck?
> 
> I see the troxel seat I currently have is incorrect since Google says the company wasn't even started until 1915
> 
> ...




Here is a TOC Troxel saddle. Don't ever rely on the absolute truth, to be found, in a Google search...


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## Mickeymike (Jul 30, 2015)

So maybe my troxel seat may be original? Obviously it did not come on the bike, but maybe the dealer swapped it out? 










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## Freqman1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I believe that seat is later than your bike and was switched out somewhere down the road. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Jul 31, 2015)

Guys, these decals on my chainless or not?







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## Freqman1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I don't think so. Like I said in an earlier post I don't believe you see decals til much later than our models. My bike is original paint-no decals and no pinstripes. I've seen these restored with both but I don't think it is correct but rather for aesthetics. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Aug 1, 2015)

Any input guys? I see these wright and Brooke's style seats on ebay. Will one of these pass the buck? 

I see the troxel seat I currently have is incorrect since Google says the company wasn't even started until 1915




View attachment 228237


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## volksboy57 (Aug 1, 2015)

Mickeymike said:


> So maybe my troxel seat may be original? Obviously it did not come on the bike, but maybe the dealer swapped it out?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is a cool seat. Let me know if you want to sell it.
here is a photo of my pierce. It is not a chainless, but I'm really not sure the year...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/83196242@N06/15311002612/sizes/o/


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## Freqman1 (Aug 1, 2015)

Google is wrong. I believe this was answered as well in an earlier post. Take a look at this page from the 1902 catalog. The standard seat for a mens chainless in the '02 catalog is the Sager No. 4. Optional seats were the Troxel 30B, Wheeler No 1 or 5, or the Persons Special. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Aug 1, 2015)

Any chance u can post more pics from that catalog? I would love to see it.


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## Mickeymike (Aug 3, 2015)

Any of u guys know what kind of oil I put in this bike? Just greese or automotive gear oil ? 


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## Mickeymike (Aug 20, 2015)

Can you guys help me figure out what kind of spokes I will need? 

The rear and I think the front are 14.5" 


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## filmonger (Aug 21, 2015)

Do We have the serial number for your bike on the Pierce list Volksboy 57 - If not... can we kindly have it along the location of the serial number. Thank you.


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## filmonger (Aug 21, 2015)

Here is a picture of the Pierce Booth in 1914 - this should give you an idea of the style and presentation....though I know this is much later than your bicycle it does give you and idea of how Pierce intended the bikes to be presented.













Also If you are not too worried about it being absolute period correct - here is a pic of a 1900ishish suspension model with an eagle climax seat...cannot remember where I found this or who's bike this is ... but maybe it might help.












Here is a page out of the bicycling world 1903 - this is more around the time of your bicycle - again may be of assistance


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

I also noticed my front wheel hub is a new departure model M 

Which didn't come out until much later. 

Also the mount that holds the rear shock has 1 and 6 stamped into each bracket underneath 








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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

And my hub has the oiler so its circa 1918  


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Aug 21, 2015)

I have a 1906 M hub, if you need one...


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

Is it in better condition than mine?










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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Aug 21, 2015)

No...


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

Ok. I will just nickle plate mine over


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

The rear is in mint shape. Original nickel plate held up nice 







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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

Finally got the new tires


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

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## kermit (Aug 21, 2015)

This is what I started with and finished with... Worth the work.....


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

Nice pierce! Can u post a pic of the head badge and lower pat badge? 


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

Also what did u do about gear oil? Did u use grease instead? 


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

Also the gasket or seals on the crank between the frame, what did u use? Rtv or make a new one?


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

Also what do you think these things are worth on the restored?


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

When. 


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## gkeep (Aug 21, 2015)

Hello,
 Here is a before and after photo of my Pierce Roadster, chain drive, Buffalo badge used from 1908-1916. This is the original carmine paint and black pin striping. Yours may have some striping hidden under the new paint. One shot is before I started cleaning and preserving the original finish. The saddle is a new Brooks until I find an old saddle. One pedal was also missing. Rims are steel, 28X13/8. I had to order the tires from Australia. No one carries them in the western hemisphere.






Have fun with your bike, nice that you have that family connection!

Gary


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## Mickeymike (Aug 21, 2015)

Nice I have the same forks and headset. 


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## kermit (Aug 22, 2015)

grease


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## kermit (Aug 22, 2015)

I think they are worth around $5000 range


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## Mickeymike (Aug 22, 2015)

What did yall do about spokes? Mine measure to 11.5" I would like to replace them cuz they are all faded,  they do buff out out......but 72 of them! I'll be at it all night


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## Mickeymike (Aug 25, 2015)

SPOKE INFO for anyone.

Front wheel "new departure model M"  with (36ct) of 302mm double butted spokes with 19mm nipples

Rear wheel. (18ct) of 295mm spokes for the left side, and (18ct) of 298mm spokes for the right side. 19mm nipples


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## Mickeymike (Aug 25, 2015)

All spokes laced in 3 cross pattern and all double butted j bend


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## Mickeymike (Aug 25, 2015)

Here's some pics guys, I was able to get all that green off. 

Bright carmine looks great. Good patina. In areas you can see the beautiful brass brazing. 

I also found another number stamp under the rear shock mount. Has 1 and 6 























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## Mickeymike (Aug 25, 2015)

Rather than hit this with powder or paint, I think I might urethane clear coat it, auto body style. To seal the patina

What do you guys think? 


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## Freqman1 (Aug 26, 2015)

I would never powder coat any collectible bicycle. I would either leave it like it is or repaint it. Re: the previous post on value--on a really good day for a correct, high end resto of a full suspension bike you might get lucky and get $5k although that is pushing it. For one without the sprung front fork no way. Jus my 2c. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Aug 26, 2015)

The black Pierce chainless 1910 on nostalgic.net is with out a doubt powdercoated. I have much experience with powdercoat and also 2 stage and 3 stage paint. Powdercoat is thicker and much more durable material,  if it didn't hurt his valuation, maybe it won't hurt mine too. All the Indian and Harley guys do it to classic motorcycles.


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## Mickeymike (Aug 26, 2015)

If that ain't powdercoat, than my reality is false 







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## Freqman1 (Aug 26, 2015)

Its your bike but personally I wouldn't touch a powder coated bike. The bike on Nostalgic net wasn't advertised or sold to my knowledge so no way of knowing how it affected value. If you are going to be looking for top dollar then you need to go the distance--single stage paint, correct everything to inlcude hubs, spokes, seat, pedals, hardware, etc... all with correct finish. Not cheap to do but high end is just that. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Aug 26, 2015)

I was going to color match and repaint, but every restor'er knows original paint is worth more anyway of the week than matched paint. 

I think I will seal it with urethane clear to preserve it. So it will last another 100 years. 


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## Mickeymike (Aug 26, 2015)

Plus I didn't think or at least wasn't optimistic that the original paint was underneath all those layers of paint


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## Freqman1 (Aug 26, 2015)

A coat of Johnson's paste wax would preserve it without permanently altering it like clear will. V/r Shawn


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## schwinnspastic (Aug 27, 2015)

Just to add my .02 I would follow Shawns advice and just wax over the original paint .
I have a couple Pierce bikes awaiting restoration and I am still trying to find the rear
shaft drive hub for one that's the only hold up for me so if anyone has one I am interested.
Mark


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## Mickeymike (Aug 27, 2015)

My machine shop could make one, but it would be a few hundred or so.


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## Mickeymike (Sep 18, 2015)

What do you guys think of the cork gaskets I made? I gonna run grease instead of gear oil. I also did a urethane 2 parts clear coat over the original paint to seal it and preserve it for another 100 years

















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## filmonger (Sep 18, 2015)

Cool.......


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## kermit (Sep 18, 2015)

DO NOT PAINT IT.... There is a lot of paint there!!! You will be glad you DIDN'T...Just from my experience.. Dave


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## Mickeymike (Sep 18, 2015)

I didn't paint it, I CLEAR COATED OVER THE PAINT


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## Freqman1 (Sep 18, 2015)

I believe most serious collectors will now consider this a repaint and it will not have the same value had you left it like it was. A thin coat of paste wax would have sealed it and not altered the condition of the paint. The bottom line is its your bike and you can do what you want though. V/r Shawn


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## Mickeymike (Sep 18, 2015)

I think clear coating it was absolutely the right thing to do. It looks beautiful. All bare metal is now rust free and preserved. Not only am I happy with the clearcoat but if I ever find myself with another Pierce or antique bicycle I will do this again. 100% 


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## Mickeymike (Oct 27, 2015)

Update! What do you guys think? 





















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## filmonger (Oct 27, 2015)

I think she is lovely - well done my friend!!!!


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## Mickeymike (Oct 27, 2015)

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## Mickeymike (Apr 22, 2016)

Here's the stand/stage that I made for the bike. With Pierce logos and brass plate















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## filmonger (Apr 22, 2016)

Very Cool - you must be an Art Director....LOL


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## gtdohn (Apr 22, 2016)

Very well done.


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## Mickeymike (Apr 22, 2016)

Nope, just a 30y regular guy


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## locomotion (Jan 21, 2017)

I think it looks good, and the pallet is super, good job
I would say a $3600 bicycle!

I would remove the lamp from the head badge, you are hiding it's identity
get yourself a stem bracket for your lamp

P.S. how did you make that huge logo on the pallet?


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## Mickeymike (Jan 25, 2017)

I paid a company to make a stencil from the pierce bicycle logo, than I spray painted the stencil onto the pallet


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## olderthandirt (Jan 26, 2017)

i would be careful with urethane clear it is prone to melt enamel paint  down to the metal makes it into a goo , ask me how i know about this !since these old bikes were painted with enamel i would shoot clear enamel over it be sure to test a spot where it dosent show first


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