# '57? Schwinn American? Basket case



## dirtman (Mar 25, 2021)

I picked this up a few years ago along with a slew of other parts, the seller said "It's all there except for the front wheel". 
I tried checking the serial numbers, but they don't fit any on the chart here? (J810484)
The frame was stripped of all but its crankset and kickstand when I got it, I found the chainguard in one box, the forks in another, a green 'S' saddle tagged 'American', and a chrome rear S7 wheel with an RB1 hub, plus two Bendix cable shifted 2 speed hubs also in the box with the fork. 

I soaked the whole frame in Evaporust and polished it up the best I could, the paint is rough but I'm not big on repainting my bikes unless its a total mess covered in house paint or something. 

In the lot I also found a set of blue painted fenders and a set of chrome fenders, both are four brace fenders that the last owner had tagged "American".  

On problem I'm having is that the 'American' chainguard, which appears to match color wise, don't fit the frame.  The front and rear tab holes are 17 13/16" apart, the chain guard will only span about 16 1/8" max. 
I also have an early, same style Tiger chain guard and that won't fit the frame either, nor will one from a newer, 65ish Typhoon. The later CG sits proud of the entire chain by about 1/4". 

On the CG I have, seen in the pics below, if I attach it to the front hole, the entire CG sits above the chain and too far forward, as if its set up for a huge chain ring not the 46t on it now. 
If I attached the rear bracket to the rear tab, the CG sits correctly but the front hole is roughly 3/4" too far rearward for it to align with the frame. (If I redrill a new hole further forward on the CG front bracket, it would work and sit correctly).

The frame has a flat raised rear brake bridge, how did that attach to the rear fender on these? The painted fenders have no mount or hole there, the chrome set have a single hole similar to a later Typhoon. 

I had assumed it to be an American when I found the chain guard and the fact that its got the checkerboard style seat post decal to match a 56-57 American. But it appears to be set up for a rear caliper, meaning it would have had a 3 speed hub, but I see no marks from that bracket every being used or were there any shifter guide or pulley marks on the paint. 

The forks and frame are slightly wider than my 65 or 72 Typhoon, with a pair of S2 coaster brake wheels with 26x2.125 tires, I have plenty of room, even with fenders. With the balloon tires, there's 1.5" between the brake bridge and the tire all the way back, there's 9/16" of space on both sides of the tire at the chain stays, much more at the seat stays. The forks have about 9/16" or so on each side with about 1" to the surface of the fender retainer bolt in the bottom of the steer tube. 

Maybe this isn't a middleweight? If not, what is it? 
From what I can tell looking at the 56-57-58 catalogs, its decaled like a 57 American, and it appears that all American models were kickback two speeds, and didn't have a rear caliper, this frame seems to have been made for a caliper. Did they use this brake bridge on bikes with coaster brakes? 
Any idea on the serial number? It don't seem to match anything, its closest to a 1958 but I eliminated that because they don't show an American in '58. 

The blue paint is the newer blue, with a silver base coat and red primer, so from what I can tell that puts it after 1956 when they changed the color listing in the catalogs from Opal Blue to Opalescent Blue. 

Any ideas as to what this may be if it indeed isn't an American?

Did earlier middleweights have wider frames and forks than those in the 60's?

Here's a few pics:



As found


After cleaning



Serial number on left dropout


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## GTs58 (Mar 25, 2021)

The frame serial number was stamped in Sept. 1958 and that chain guard is off a 1955 or late 1954 bike. Opal and Opalescent is the same thing. The paint name changed to Radiant Blue on the 1959 models.


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## bloo (Mar 25, 2021)

Is this an anomaly in the chart? That serial is too low. If the chart is right, that bike was built on Labor Day. Thoughts?


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## GTs58 (Mar 25, 2021)

Yup! This number does not show up on the list for Monday, no posted recordings for Monday. And no, the bike was not built on that date. The dates associated to the serial numbers is the date that number was stamped on the bikes component and before the component was used to build a frame. The serial list has numerous flaws as anyone can imagine, so you have to study the list when you come across one of these errors. No stamping recorded for Sept 1, 1958, but from the OP's bike we can see that number had to be stamped on that day and the numbers for some reason (beer time in the break room) were not recorded, or that daily list was lost. Some people do work on Labor Day, and I did most of my life. I can't say if Schwinn completely shut down for the day or if there was choice of taking the day off or working, but I have to assume some actually did work seeing the OP's serial number. I've come across countless errors on the serial number list and I've lost track on how many I've come across over the last 12 or so years. Most of these times you had to fill in the blanks.   

09/01------------------- J800001-------------------J811111
09/02 ------------------ J811112 ------------------ J814850


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## dirtman (Mar 26, 2021)

So the does that make the bike a 1958 or 1959 model?
If its 1959, then its not an 'American' but maybe a Tiger model going on the seat post decals?
But the top tube decals are the old 'Schwinn' script logo, like the older models. 

The chainguard holes are 17 13/16" apart, I've got several later style chainguards from 60's middle weights and all have 17" bolt hole spacing.
Roughly the same as the earlier cg. What chain guard does this need?

Then there's the  width and tire fit. I pulled the wheels off a 1964 Fleet, both with original Westwind tires, and they're extremely close and the rear requires deflating to get it in the frame, that bike has a red band 2 speed Bendix hub with white S7 rims. 

I pulled the wheels off an 80's Cruiser which has a set of 'Golden' 26x2.35 'Comfort' tires on it.
I used these wheels because they were the widest 559mm wheels I had here with mounted tires. 
In overall height, they're  a bit smaller than the S7 wheels. 


They measure 59.62mm wide inflated to 65 psi for maximum width. They grow considerably with added pressure. These rims are black chrome Araya rims off a Giant brand cruiser from the late 80's or so. The tires are wide, but not very tall. They will not fit the front forks of my Typhoon.
I also measured the width of the rear chain stays at the point where I could see former tire rub in the past and get 2 3/4" wide, and the forks measure almost exactly the same. The rear mtb wheel just fit without having to deflate the tire. I left the front fender bolt in place for measuring clearance as well. 
On the '65 Typhoon frame and fork, the mtb wheels look small and I can see through between the tire and fender, and its tough to get these tires to clear both sides.  
In the rear, the brake bridge is a bit high, but a caliper off a three speed Hollywood parts bike fits with a bit of room to spare as far as pad adjustment. 
With S7 rims, the pads can't go quite high enough, they'd work, but they're not completely on the rim.

Here's a few pics:


Wheel all the way back in the dropouts



In the rear, about 14.5mm on the side, about 25mm forward before tire hits frame



Up front with the overinflated 2.35 tire.



Side view, with about 65psi in these tires.



Forks



Chainstays, also around 2 3/4"



Brake caliper type rear bridge


I took this pic for comparison, this is a '69 Typhoon with a set of Pep Boys 'Cordovan' S7 26x1 3/4" tires on it.
They measure only 42mm wide fully inflated and they have similar clearance compared to the 2.35 tires on the blue frame. 
The forks are also noticeably wider on the blue frame, the crown area is more squared off then on the Hollywood or Typhoon frames.
The two frames are very different, the main difference is in the bend or arch of the seat stays and the way the tubes are finished around the BB. 
The blue frame is fillet brazed or welded on all joints where as the Typhoon BB is only finished where the down tube meets the BB.
The blue frame's chainstays bend outward both sooner and farther than the Typhoon on which the chainstays continuously widen towards the dropouts. 
The rear frame is at least 1/2" narrower at the front next to the tire.

Was it a matter of the older middleweight frames just being a bit wider or is this not a middleweight frame? 
The guy who I bought it from roughly 10 years or so ago called it a Schwinn American, like all the other bikes I got from him it was torn apart and in boxes.


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## dirtman (Mar 26, 2021)

Also, What setup on this bike would have had a rear caliper? I don't see where any "American" came with a rear caliper, they appear to be all coaster brake models? This style brake bridge tells me this was likely set up for a three speed Sturmey Archer rear hub?
Or did they use the same frame for coaster brake and caliper applications? If so, what did the fender attachment look like to that brake bridge?


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## Rivnut (Mar 26, 2021)

I have a Corvette with coaster brake that has the brake bridge for a caliper brake.  Same with an older girl‘s Starlet.  I think there was just the one frame for all bikes regardless of which brake setup was used.


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## Oilit (Mar 26, 2021)

dirtman said:


> So the does that make the bike a 1958 or 1959 model?
> If its 1959, then its not an 'American' but maybe a Tiger model going on the seat post decals?
> But the top tube decals are the old 'Schwinn' script logo, like the older models.
> 
> ...



The only balloon tire bike to use that rear fender/brake caliper bracket was the 1954/55 Jaguar, and the Jaguar never used the checkerboard seat post decal. The middleweight frames were re-worked in the late '50's (1959?), so that's probably what you're seeing. That may also have been when Schwinn started building different frames for the 3 speeds (with this bracket and a fork for calipers) versus the single and two speeds (no-caliper fork and fender only rear bracket). Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## GTs58 (Mar 26, 2021)

Your frame was built as a 1958 American and it took the hockey stick chain guard. That fork that's attached to the bike is not original to that frame and is from a 1961 or later bike. There should be a two or three digit date code on the inside of the left fork leg just above the axle slot, (month and last digit of the year). The American was never offered as a three speed with a rear caliper, just the Bendix manual 2 speed and the front bolt on caliper brake or a coaster. It never had any parts manufactured outside of the US, all American. There was a frame change starting with the 59's but I don't think that involved any chain guard mounting differences. The first middleweights mid 54 and 1955 had the hockey stick chain guard that was used on all the lightweights starting in 1945 and the mounting bracket spacing was about 17 1/8". That was changed starting with the 1956 models and the spacing was right around 17 3/4" so the guard bracket at the rear was moved rearward. What I've noticed is the front mounting tab is rotated forward on the BB shell causing all or some of the difference. This was most likely done to move the screw attaching point in front of the seat post verses being beside it. All the early middleweights were equipped with the flat fender/caliper bracket since most all of them had some type of gear option so all the frames were the same whether they had a rear caliper or not.


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## dirtman (Mar 27, 2021)

I noticed that one some later bikes the frame tab is threaded, (it is on my 69 and 72 Typhoons and one '65 Racer, but not on this one, nor on my Fleet, Traveler, or 56 Tourist.)
(The 'Tourist' is another bike with a ton of questions but I'll deal with that one once I find all the parts for it here. Most of which is why there's no such model listed in the catalog that year, yet the chainguard decal says Schwinn + Tourist in the old script while it most looks like a Traveler or World model in the older blue color). 

When did Schwinn change blue colors? From the few older blue bikes I've had, the Opal blue was very different, those listed as Opalescent looked like this bike and those after it. I had always thought that Opalescent and Radiant blue were the same? They look identical, even here in the pics.


CG position with the rear bracket attached.  Attaching the front bracket leaves the rear bracket the same distance short of the tab on the frame, but it puts the cg far enough forwed that the chain can be seen.  I looked at a buddies earlier American, and see that the bracket is back about 13/16" of an inch, which would make the difference but it would look funny with the cg that far forward. 
This blue chainguard is the same as one from a 56 Lightweight and a 62 Traveler I've got here. I take it that the 58 was a one off year when it came to chainguards? 
When did the paint change? As you can see, the cg, frame and fork all match perfect color wise. 
(The different shades in the pics is with and without flash and a the color looks very different under LED lights than it does under florescent lights. 

Out of curiosity, I tried this cg on the newer Typhoon, and the front bracket works fine, but the rear hole of the cg would have to be further back. The tab on the 69 Typhoon is farther rearward than on this bike. I couldn't get to the Fleet but I suspect that's the same way. 

For the time being, I'm kind of leaning towards just using the rear bracket the way it is and drilling a new hold up front in the cg bracket to make this one work. 
If the bike is a mix of parts, what's the difference unless someone has a correct blue cg with 17 3/4" screw spacing who wants to swap for an earlier one. 
I'm seriously considering running a set of chrome S2 wheels with a set of new small brick pattern 26x2.125 tires with the chrome fenders. I think the bigger tire will look best on this frame, I trial fit a set of later Typhoon wheels and they looks skinny on this bike, not to mention they seem to be really close to the fender up front. They work with a smaller than normal non-Schwinn tire but an original Westwind is only a few thousandths of an inch from the fork bolt at the top.



No brake caliper hole



6+8 stamped in the left front fork end
These ends are very different from those on my '69 Typhoon, the '69 fork ends 
are larger with sort of a keyhole shape opening to accept safety washers. 
My Fleet (ser. B341270, has similar fork ends but the crown if wider on this fork than on the Fleet by about 5/8" or so. 
That bike is black.


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## Rivnut (Mar 27, 2021)

Looks like a 24” chain guard. Maybe got switched when the fork did. .????


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## Adamtinkerer (Mar 27, 2021)

The American had the checkerboard decal? I thought it was only on the Tiger. I know the fenders were bigger until '63, and some minor frame changes/ Maybe to make them lighter. And the hockey stick guards had a bunch of different applications, so the mounting points were different.


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## Rivnut (Mar 27, 2021)

Here are pictures of three bikes that I have
1955 Hornet Balloon



1956 Corvette


1958 Starlet



All of the above bikes are single speed coaster brake models.

I also have a 1959 Corvette with the same rear style bracket BUT I have a 1959 Speedster with the arched bracket. The Corvette is a single speed coaster; the speedster is a two speed coaster.  The Corvette had the option of the three speed which would have required caliper brakes, the Speedster only came with the coaster brake.


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## Rivnut (Mar 27, 2021)

With the J8xxxxx serial number, this serial number fits in Schwinn’s revised  numbering system.  A letter to designate a month starting with A for January and continuing through M. No letter I, did not want to be confused with the number 1.  Then the number that corresponds to the year.  G would be the 7th month, H would be the 8th month, and J would be the 9th month - September. 8 would be - 1958.

One thing I learned long ago with my 1958 Starlet, there are no copies of 1958 Schwinn catalog or brochures. About the only thing you can do is look at Google images for similar bikes.


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## Rivnut (Mar 27, 2021)

Here is a picture of a 1958 American that was advertised for sale here on the Cabe some time ago.  You can see the same caliper bracket as yours and the checkerd flag seat post decal.


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## dirtman (Mar 27, 2021)

I've got at least 6 of these chainguards, all are identical other than color and decals. 
Here's a good comparison, 
The first is a '62 Traveler, the middle one is the only 'American' CG I have, and the last is off a '56 Tiger. 
This also shows the difference in the early and later blue.
All of these came off 26" bikes. (The Traveler is a lightweight diamond frame)
Each one measures right around 17" hole to hole, the two blue cg's have slightly shorter rear brackets than does the chrome trailer, all three rivets are in the same place and all three front brackets are the same.


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## GTs58 (Mar 27, 2021)

dirtman said:


> I've got at least 6 of these chainguards, all are identical other than color and decals.
> Here's a good comparison,
> The first is a '62 Traveler, the middle one is the only 'American' CG I have, and the last is off a '56 Tiger.
> This also shows the difference in the early and later blue.
> ...



This style chain guard was first used on the prewar bikes, different mounting brackets though, then all lightweights from prewar on into the 1960's. The post war lightweights with the new brackets had a screw spacing of 17.25 +-. When the middleweights came out in 1954 they were equipped with those same guards and the same spacing. Then at an unknown exact time, the 1956 model middleweights were changed and had the screw spacing of 17.75" +- and the lightweights still as far as I know had the 17.25 spacing. Your Blue American CG is off a 54-55 bike. I have a pre 1953 feather guard and the spacing is 17.75 +- so that was the norm for bikes other than the lightweights and the first year middleweights. All my 60's Corvettes all have the 17.75" spacing. I see on your Traveler guard the rear mounting hole looks elongated more than the other two guards.


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## dirtman (Mar 27, 2021)

The black Traveler cg bracket has a slightly different shaped bracket but it the hole spacing is the same. The added length of the slotted hole makes it capable of fitting a slightly shorter bolt spacing. The hole is also narrower, the two blue cg's have rear holes that are slightly larger than 1/4", the black cg is only 5mm wide. On the black bike, both bracket holes are tapped, the front hole is threaded for a 1/4" bolt. The bracket is also thicker and bent slightly different, but accomplishes the same reach and position.

They must have changed both the position of the front mounting tab and the front cg bracket. If the tab was further back, there would be no need for the rear bracket to be moved rearward on the cg and the older cg wouldn't sit so far forward on the newer frame. 
The frame tab spacing on these three measure between 16 13/16" and 17 1/8"


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## gkeep (Mar 27, 2021)

That blue paint cleaned up well! Nice looking survivor.

My red American with serial K827301, October 30th 1958 also has the checkerboard decal and same bracket on the rear stays.


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## dirtman (Mar 28, 2021)

What year does 6+8 make my forks?

It looks like the original forks were longer?

Assuming that the larger tire on the red bike is 26x2.125, there appears to be almost an inch of added space above the tire on the older forks. 
Maybe the blue forks I've got aren't for a middleweight? 
I dug around and found another pair but they're nearly identical to those on the bike now, but those are marked 4+5. 




Although the mtb tire on mine in this pic is a 2.35", there's a noticeable difference in the fork length.

So as it stands, this bike has the wrong forks, wrong chain guard, and will likely have the wrong wheels if I build it as it sits because with S7 wheels, there may not be enough room to fit the fenders. (The front fender is going to be close). 

The more I did into this lot of bikes, the more I think the guy who had all these was just building bikes from spare parts. 

I think I need to decide whether to just build up a set of S2 wheels for this and hang a set of chrome fenders, and make the CG I have work and call it a beater or hang it up in the corner and wait for the right parts to show up.


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## GTs58 (Mar 28, 2021)

dirtman said:


> What year does 6+8 make my forks?
> 
> It looks like the original forks were longer?
> 
> ...





The 6 + 8 on the fork indicates it was forged in June of 1968. I've never measured the length of any fork but I doubt the middleweight forks were different in length over the years. A middleweight would have S-7 rims and if you use an S-2 installing fenders won't work very well unless you use a tire smaller than the 2.125's. Not sure if you got your S's mixed up on the rims.   Just another FYI if you are piecing together the bikes. There was a frame geometry change on the cantilever frames between the 58 and 59 models and the rear fenders are not interchangeable unless you modify the top attaching point. If I remember correctly there was a 3/4" difference. So for your 58 frame any middleweight rear fender off a 1958 or earlier model will work.


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## bloo (Mar 28, 2021)

Do both your forks have the hole to mount a caliper? If not that may explain the difference in length. The forks without the hole are a whole different forging. The fender bolted directly to the fork rather than hanging on an L bracket.


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## dirtman (Mar 28, 2021)

The painted fenders match the frame paint, they're wrapped up in brown paper but have no rear middle mount attached, just a hole that falls roughly just ahead of the brake bridge. The chrome fenders are used and have the hole just behind the brake bridge, about 1/4" or so. The painted fenders are 'deeper' and cover more of the tire, the chrome fenders are shallower, more like the newer Typhoon fenders. 

If I go looking for the right fork, what should it be marked for a 58 American?

One thing that I don't understand is that if this fork is 1968, shouldn't that make it the same as the fork on my '69 Typhoon? The blue fork is wider and shorter by about 1/2" overall, going on tire clearance between the tread and fender bolt. A couple years ago I bought a pair of newer small brick pattern tires marked 26x2x1 3/4", they're larger than the original Westwind tires and won't clear the fork on this blue bike with fenders. The 559 sized wheels seem to fit better. 
The S7 wheel with the newer tires rubs the fender bolt every so slightly. 
If you look at the comparison above between my bike with the knobby mtb wheel on it, and the red bike, there's a pretty big difference in clearance above the tire. The difference is roughly the difference between the two wheel sizes. Since there's no caliper needed on this bike, the right wheels size as it sits seems to be 26x2.125 with fenders, there's plenty of room all around for this size, especially since I've already tried the 2.35 mtb tires on it.
With the 2.35 tires. there's more room on both sides and above the tire than there is on any of my 60's era Schwinn middleweights. Those 2.35 tires barely fit in the fork from the 1969 Typhoon, they rub on both sides, 2.125 tires may fit but it would be close. The
The only middleweight forks I've got that have a caliper bolt hole are from a Hollywood, ladies model that had a three speed and dual calipers, with S7 wheels (26x1 3/4"), that bike was newer, the hub was dated 1965 and the forks have. The fork has a code of 2+5.
On this fork, the 2.35 tire clears by about 1/32" on each side, any flex or deflection and it would rub. 

What would have had a super wide fork, no caliper bolt, and take a 559 wheel in 65?





(I just noticed something about this bike, its a Hollywood, dated 1965 in Flamboyant Red, yet they only list Radiant Blue and White with rose in the catalog. 
This bike belonged to a neighbor who grew up across the street from me as a kid, she was a few years old and had owned this bike since new. (I bought it years ago and swapped the frame out for a same year Men's Racer frame I found). I used the fork and CG from the Racer.


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## gkeep (Mar 28, 2021)

dirtman said:


> What year does 6+8 make my forks?
> 
> It looks like the original forks were longer?
> 
> ...



Keep in mind this by bike was found with BMX pedals and straight red longhorn bars, modern rims. No telling if the forks and truss rods are original to the frame.


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## Rivnut (Mar 28, 2021)

If you compare a 1-3/4 x 26 tire on an S7 rim to a 2.125 x 26 tire on an S2 rim, you will find that they have the same diameter and circumference. The only difference is the width.


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## GTs58 (Mar 28, 2021)

dirtman said:


> The painted fenders match the frame paint, they're wrapped up in brown paper but have no rear middle mount attached, just a hole that falls roughly just ahead of the brake bridge. The chrome fenders are used and have the hole just behind the brake bridge, about 1/4" or so. The painted fenders are 'deeper' and cover more of the tire, the chrome fenders are shallower, more like the newer Typhoon fenders.
> 
> If I go looking for the right fork, what should it be marked for a 58 American?
> 
> ...





There was no such thing as a 65 Hollywood with gears and caliper brakes. Someone here was looking for a girls frame that was set up for caliper brakes in the mid 60's but there was no such animal. I just measured a 1955 Corvette drilled fork and a late 50's Tornado non drilled fork and the length difference from the bottom of the shoulder to the axle slot was only 1/4" difference. If you look at the catalog images for the 1955 thru 1957 American, all had a drilled fork, but that doesn't mean that all the ones made were equipped like that. Also the 57 image did not have the flat rear fender bridge. A 58 fork will have full pin stripes going down the fork legs. These were used thru the 1960 models and a few early 1961's. The small fork darts showed up on the 1961 models. If you have the correct fenders for that American, you'll need to check them and see how the front fender was attached before looking for a fork. If they were attached to a drilled fork then the fenders will have the L bracket for mounting with a bolt. If the fender just has a hole then the fork it was mounted to was not drilled.  Also, the date stampings on the forks started in the early 60's and no 50's forks that I've seen had that date stamping. There was also a change on the fork steer tube and the stems in 1966. The steer tube gauge was increased making the hole diameter smaller which in turn made the stem diameter smaller.

Center fork darts were used from 1955 thru 1960. This actual fork is from a 1959 when they were first equipped with a chrome crown.


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## bloo (Mar 28, 2021)

Here is my 1961 Speedster with 26x2x1-3/4 small brick S7 tires.





The wheel/tire outer diameter would be larger than 26x2.125 (559) balloons because as Rivnut said, the OD would have been the same with stock s7 26x1-3/4 tires. My forks are non-caliper and measure 3" wide, center to center of the blades, measured at the fork crown. Of course it gets wider at the bottom to fit a standard Schwinn front hub. There is 1/2" clearance between the tire and the underside of the fork with no fender bolt.

Caliper-type forks are longer. I see GTs58 just posted that the difference is 1/4". That's not much but it is hard to miss in pictures once you are looking for it. My "non-drilled" no-caliper fork, does not have the boss to drill, or even enough metal to have a hole there. That is another detail that is hard to miss once you are looking for it.


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## dirtman (Mar 28, 2021)

gkeep said:


> Keep in mind this by bike was found with BMX pedals and straight red longhorn bars, modern rims. No telling if the forks and truss rods are original to the frame.



After 60 or so years, I suppose most of these bikes have been through a lot, there's often no telling what was changed or modified. 

I had a 65 Typhoon as a kid that belonged to a neighbor where I grew up. He had bought that bike brand new to deliver newspapers with. He wanted a Heavy Duti but they didn't have one in stock so the dealer 'converted' a Typhoon. They changed the wheels and handlebars and he ended up with a Typhoon with 105 spokes and knobby tires with wide handlebars. I bought the bike off him when I took over his newspaper route back then. 
For a while around here, there were a ton of old Schwinns with 140 spoke wheels and springer forks added. These days they're pretty rare.







Rivnut said:


> If you compare a 1-3/4 x 26 tire on an S7 rim to a 2.125 x 26 tire on an S2 rim, you will find that they have the same diameter and circumference. The only difference is the width.



It seems to depend on the particular tire, the 26x2.35 tires I used for comparison measure 26 1/2" tall, I got a set of Kenda S7 tires that measure only 25 7/8" tall, the new 'small brick' Duro tires are taller, and wider than the original Westwind tires. 

With this bike, width isn't an issue, its got a ton of room, but not a lot of room for added diameter.


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## dirtman (Mar 28, 2021)

The Hollywood's serial number was EA53083, its still hanging on the wall outback. It had S7 rims, a Sturmey Archer AW hub and trigger shifter. I didn't use the rear hub, I swapped it out for an RB2 Bendix. No clue if it was original or something someone made up, it came to me from an estate sale in the 90's. The rear caliper attached with a vertical bolt and a special caliper or adapter.


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## Rivnut (Mar 28, 2021)

I’ve made the “L” shaped fender attachment brackets from some thin sheet metal. Cut to the shape you need, drill a couple of hole in the right places, and pop rivet the bracket to the fender. Almost everything will be hidden under the fork or behind the head of a screw or a washer So no one will see them.


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## dirtman (Mar 29, 2021)

bloo said:


> Here is my 1961 Speedster with 26x2x1-3/4 small brick S7 tires.
> 
> View attachment 1381445
> 
> ...



It looks like they used at least three different forks over the years on middleweights. The blue 1965 forks on the American now are wider than most others, maybe their not lightweight forks? But they're not 3" wide. They are wider than any of my other 60's and 70's middleweights here. The only middleweight fork I have here with the caliper hole is the red fork pictured with the mtb wheel, its about 1/8" narrower than the forks on my all three Typhoons and my Fleet. 

In the same lot from which the American frame came from I got two buckets of forks, some lightweight, some middleweight. 
The lightweight forks are obvious, they're longer and much narrower. Later forks are also obvious because of the 'safety' dropouts or big square ends on each fork blade.
I have two forks here that were marked 24", those are obviously shorter but will mount a 26" S7 wheel with a smaller tire but only just barely. There would be no way to confuse the two when building a bike. 
In the middleweight lot of forks, Ive got two very light blue forks, one violet fork, three blue forks counting the one on the bike now, one later green fork, and one yellow fork. The yellow, light blue, and green fork have the newer ends. The violet fork has a matching '68 Typhoon frame but the kickstand tube is broken off, the yellow fork has a frame but the fender tab is missing for the rear fender, and the two light blue forks are from ladies frames. There was another black Typhoon frame that was basically missing only its wheels, that had the right seat stay broke free of the seat tube. I traded that to a guy who said he was going to reweld it and restore it. It was in rough shape. I got a clean newer Speedster and two large cases of brand new Schwinn inner tubes for it. 

Anyhow, with the blue forks on the bike now, a pair of those newer brick tread 26x2x1 3/4" tires the tread just misses the fender nut but with weight and flex it does appear to make contact. I had slapped the wheels off my Fleet on it before I cleaned it all up to make sure it rode okay, and over bumps I'd get the occasional sound of tread rubbing the bolt head. Without the fender bolt it would have been fine. On the Fleet, the tires clear by about 3/8". 
There may also be some differences in those new brick tires, those on the Fleet are a few years old, they say made in Vietnam on the side and are branded DRC.  I think I bought them at a flea market brand new while on vacation in FL about 12 years ago. 
The same seller there had tires branded DRC, Omega, and Oxford, all made in Vietnam, and super cheap. The brick treads were $15/pr, the Oxford S7 tires were $10/pr. I bought a dozen tires in all, if I had known I'd need so many 12 years later I'd likely have bought a lot more. The guy had a 'booth' at a local fleamarket and he sold used bikes and parts. 
The DRC tires are larger than the newer Duro branded tires by about 1/4". I had a lot of trouble getting them to pop up on the bead of the rim, so I left them out in the sun inflated to about 80 psi for a day to get them to fit properly, I think that may have also expanded them some. I now run them at the max 45 psi. They are larger than many 2.125 width 559 tires. 

I wish I had another pair of the the brick tread tires for my 69 Typhoon, the Cheng Shin tires on it are small for their size. 
They ride okay but I have to over inflate them to protect the rims under my weight.

Here's a '72 Typhoon I've had for a lot of years, I just pulled it from storage after about 25 or so years at my other house. 
Its got a set of Cheng Shin tires on it as well. There's not a ton of room on this later model for bigger tires, these have less than 3/8" on both sides of the tires and about an 3/4" of space in the back, and slightly less in the front. The fender, like on my 69, bolts from the bottom with a single bolt up front. These forks are much narrower than the blue forks on the American. 
These forks are only slightly wider than those on the same year Speedster I've got, which is a lightweight model. 

There's a definite difference in the rear triangle of the middle weight frames even between my 64 Fleet, and my 69/72 Typhoons. And the Fleet has differences when compare to the American. There's a lot more tire room on the 64 and 58 frames than on the newer Typhoon frames I've got.

Its hard to tell in just pictures but it also looks like some forks have less of a curve to them. These blue forks look to have more of a sweeping curve at the end than most I see here. They're perfectly aligned and they don't look bent, but they're definitely different than say the forks on the black Speedster above. Even the red forks I posted with the mtb wheel earlier have more of a curve. The curve seems to occur lower on the black than do most middleweight forks I see here. 

I don't doubt these are the wrong forks but I'd like to figure out what they came from. So far I've not seen any that match.


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## bloo (Mar 29, 2021)

dirtman said:


> The DRC tires are larger than the newer Duro branded tires by about 1/4". I had a lot of trouble getting them to pop up on the bead of the rim, so I left them out in the sun inflated to about 80 psi for a day to get them to fit properly, I think that may have also expanded them some. I now run them at the max 45 psi. They are larger than many 2.125 width 559 tires.




What? What are you calling brick tread and which of these are s7 and which are 559? Are these DRC tires S7 tires? 

The current S7 26x2x1-3/4 "small brick" tires are a new mold as far as I know, and measure 1.9 on an s7 rim fully inflated. Quality is very, very good. They feel like real tires, not the cheap plasticy stuff you usually see today. I was under the impression that all previous S7 26x2x1-3/4 were diamond tread. Is there another type of S7 26x2x1-3/4 "small brick" tire floating around?


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## dirtman (Mar 29, 2021)

bloo said:


> What? What are you calling brick tread and which of these are s7 and which are 559? Are these DRC tires S7 tires?
> 
> The current S7 26x2x1-3/4 "small brick" tires are a new mold as far as I know, and measure 1.9 on an s7 rim fully inflated. Quality is very, very good. They feel like real tires, not the cheap plasticy stuff you usually see today. I was under the impression that all previous S7 26x2x1-3/4 were diamond tread. Is there another type of S7 26x2x1-3/4 "small brick" tire floating around?



The small brick tread, which are similar the original Westwind tires are S7 tires, they're branded DRC. I bought them in 2008 while on vacation. The seller looked to be a regular there and had all sorts of used bikes for sale and some older Schwinn's. He sold tires, pedals, saddles, and other bike parts too. Sort of a bicycle junk yard looking place at the fleamarket there.
The S7 version said DRC, I also bought some road bike tires with the DRC brand, which were super wide 27 x 1 3/8" size, and several pair of the cheaper Oxford branded tires with a non-brick tread. I also seem to remember having to dig through the box of tires he had to find matched pairs, some were marked DRC, others had different brand names on them, but you could see they were the same tire side by side. I think some of the other clones in box were branded Omega or something similar. 
I remember him getting frustrated when I said I only wanted 'matched' pairs. He at first had handed me two tires, both with different branding on them, but out of the same box that he had just opened. That may have been why I didn't buy more, there may not have been another two exact matches in the box and he either didn't have another box or refused to open another box till the first one was empty.
The DRC small bricks look nearly the same as the new tires being sold as Wanda, Duro, and CST, but with a few less rows of bricks on the sides. (The tread don't wrap as far around and the tire appears to have more sidewall area. He had those in both S7 and 559 diameter in 1.75 size and 2.125 sizes. I didn't buy any of the brick pattern tires in anything but 26x2x1 3/4", at the time I didn't have a need for that size and was only after a set of tires for a bike I had just bought there and one I had back at home then.

I've never run across that brand before or since. I do wish I had bought more back then, but I'm not sure how many he had. They were cheap, but not cheap enough to make me buy everyone he had. I was still buying tires then at the bike shop down the road for $8 and $10 each.  I also never figured we'd be looking at $50 to $80 for a set of bicycle tires either. 
(I've got a box of innertubes here that came from a store that closed up in the early 80's, the price tag on them is $1.59 each and they're made in the USA).  I bought four tubes in the summer of 2015 at one bike shop here for $4 each, and four Michelin 700c-28 tires for $11.99 each. That shop is gone with all the rest after the owner retired and closed up shop.  

I've also run into what I'd call 'studded knobby' tires over the years on S7 rims, they came in a bunch of sizes from Carlisle and a few other brands. They looked similar to the 'tractor grip tires that came on some Heavy Duti models.

Back in the late 60's and 70's a few local bike shops who didn't sell Schwinn used to sell a Westwind knockoff, it looked identical to the Schwinn tire but where one had Schwinn Westwind lettering, the knockoff had a bunch of swirls like they had buffed off the Schwinn Westwind logo. They were half the price of the tires from Schwinn. 

 I remember one shop that sold those who would only sell you three tires, he wouldn't sell one or two, you had to buy in lots of three. So if you needed two, you had to buy three tires. His reasoning was that most would buy 6 rather than end up with one odd tire. But what he wouldn't tell you is that if you bought 6 they were half price.


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