# The "HOLY GRAIL" of Schwinn MTB frames!



## Xlobsterman (Oct 13, 2022)

I just acquired this ultra rare NOS Schwinn MTB frame & fork in the original box with the brake set and headset! These were issued before Schwinn actually sold a complete mountain bike. They were sold as frame sets ONLY, and were listed only in the 1983 dealer catalog. So I am assuming it was a one year only model? The frame was made in Japan, and I am assuming it was made by the Panasonic Bike Company for Schwinn.


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Oct 13, 2022)

I had no idea this was a thing. 😳 
Super cool!!😎😎😎


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## Eric Amlie (Oct 13, 2022)

I like the old school decals on it.
Unfortunate about the upside down head badge(You had one job!). Looks like it's riveted on.
Great find!


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 13, 2022)

Eric Amlie said:


> I like the old school decals on it.
> Unfortunate about the upside down head badge(You had one job!). Looks like it's riveted on.
> Great find!




I love the upside down head badge, it gives it its own uniqueness! But knowing how the Japanese pride themselves in producing high quality products with attention to detail, it is hard to see how it made it past the "Quality Control" final inspection that way?


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## Gordon (Oct 13, 2022)

When I saw "BS" starting the serial number I immediately thought Bridgestone. They are made in Japan as well.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 13, 2022)

Mr. Monkeyarms said:


> I had no idea this was a thing. 😳
> Super cool!!😎😎😎




Yea, it is a pretty rare find that's for sure! 

First generation Schwinn Mountain Bike!


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## SirMike1983 (Oct 13, 2022)

Nice color, nice frame set. It could be the badge made it a "second" so it stayed in the box in storage rather than being sold. If it's a Panasonic, the frame will be pretty good, but all the better if it turned out to be a Bridgestone with that serial number.

There's a funny scene in Back to the Future III where Marty and Doc Brown are trying to fix the Delorean time machine in the mine in 1955. 1955 Doc finds the toasted part and says, no wonder it broke - it says 'Made in Japan'. 1985 Marty says, "What do you mean? All the best stuff is Made in Japan!".


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 13, 2022)

Whoa!!! Amazing find!  That frame bears some resemblance to the '84 Sierra and High Sierra frames made by Giant in Taiwan, though they were tig'd. (bottom bracket cable guide, rear rack/brake cable attachment).   Are you going to build it up or keep it NOS?


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 13, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> Nice color, nice frame set. It could be the badge made it a "second" so it stayed in the box in storage rather than being sold. If it's a Panasonic, the frame will be pretty good, but all the better if it turned out to be a Bridgestone with that serial number.
> 
> There's a funny scene in Back to the Future III where Marty and Doc Brown are trying to fix the Delorean time machine in the mine in 1955. 1955 Doc finds the toasted part and says, no it broke - it says 'Made in Japan'. 1985 Marty says, "What do you mean? All the best stuff is Made in Japan!".




I am not aware of Bridgestone ever building frames or bikes for Schwinn?

I purchased the frame from someone who just purchased a bunch of bikes from a bike shop that recently closed up! They had a few bikes posted for sale, with a couple that were NOS in the box, so I sent them a PM asking what they had. They replied that they had a frame that was still in the box, so I requested pics, they sent the pics, and the rest is history..............!


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 13, 2022)

DrRumack80 said:


> Whoa!!! Amazing find!  That frame bears some resemblance to the '84 Sierra and High Sierra frames made by Giant in Taiwan, though they were tig'd. (bottom bracket cable guide, rear rack/brake cable attachment).   Are you going to build it up or keep it NOS?




No intention of building it up! My main intention was for a wall hanger! But then I got to thinking this may be pretty valuable since it is a pretty rare find NOS in the original box?


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 13, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> No intention of building it up! My main intention was for a wall hanger! But then I got to thinking this may be pretty valuable since it is a pretty rare find NOS in the original box?



Good idea to keep it NOS. I doubt many of these frames were made to begin with. To find one NOS in the original box is extremely rare.


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 13, 2022)

Gordon said:


> When I saw "BS" starting the serial number I immediately thought Bridgestone. They are made in Japan as well.



Panasonic made bikes for Schwinn in the 70's (World Voyageur, perhaps others).


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## detroitbike (Oct 13, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> I am not aware of Bridgestone ever building frames or bikes for Schwinn?
> 
> I purchased the frame from someone who just purchased a bunch of bikes from a bike shop that recently closed up! They had a few bikes posted for sale, with a couple that were NOS in the box, so I sent them a PM asking what they had. They replied that they had a frame that was still in the box, so I requested pics, they sent the pics, and the rest is history..............!




 Bridgestone built trike labeled Schwinn


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 13, 2022)

detroitbike said:


> Bridgestone built trike labeled Schwinn
> 
> View attachment 1711526
> 
> ...




So what year is that bike? How can you tell it was made by Bridgstone?


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## cyclingday (Oct 13, 2022)

Wow!
Great find!
I love the lug built frame.
The curse of N O S in the Box.
You can’t do anything with it, except display it for the fabulous artifact that it is.
Especially when it’s something so unusual.
Super neat piece!
It does show, that Schwinn was in the game.
It’s just too bad they didn’t keep their eye on the ball, when the MTB curveballs started coming their way.


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## Thee (Oct 13, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> I love the upside down head badge, it gives it its own uniqueness! But knowing how the Japanese pride themselves in producing high quality products with attention to detail, it is hard to see how it made it past the "Quality Control" final inspection that way?



Factory defect ? Hence it sitting around since then?


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## SKPC (Oct 13, 2022)

Very well made frame, BdgStn or otherwise. Good tubing, nice paint. Yea, schwinny was not and never was in the mtb game after going overseas. Don't think mtb was a priority for them when it took off nor was it ever.   Not many early mtb-ers were riding Schwinn made bikes back then when the sport was growing rapidly.  Too bad it isn't a butted tube frame!  You could build that up with period correct NOS stuff and then you would have a real Schwinn collector showcase bike for sure.


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 13, 2022)

SKPC said:


> Very well made frame, BdgStn or otherwise. Good tubing, nice paint. Yea, schwinny was not and never was in the mtb game after going overseas. Don't think mtb was a priority for them when it took off nor was it ever.   Not many early mtb-ers were riding Schwinn made bikes back then when the sport was growing rapidly.  Too bad it isn't a butted tube frame!  You could build that up with period correct NOS stuff and then you would have a real Schwinn collector showcase bike for sure.



Schwinn got into the mtb scene a bit late, but they produced some fine bikes. The '84 Sierra and High Sierra were an admirable effort. Later, the Cimarron, Paramountain, and KOM were all excellent, serious mountain bikes. If only they had gotten the Sierra/High Sierra to market in '82 or '83....


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 13, 2022)

Thee said:


> Factory defect ? Hence it sitting around since then?




IMO it is not a defect, just a mistake! Humans are prone to making mistakes, that is why they still make pencils with erasers on them..........LOL

The upside down badge is similar to the upside down serial numbers on some of the Chicago bikes! Either way, I like it that way. Not only is this a rare frameset, but it just may be the only one ever produced with the badge upside down.............?


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## Thee (Oct 13, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> The upside down badge is similar to the upside down serial numbers on some of the Chicago bikes! Either way, I like it that way.



It’s cool ! Sure gives it character ! 🙃🙃🙃


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Oct 13, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> IMO it is not a defect, just a mistake! Humans are prone to making mistakes, that is why they still make pencils with erasers on them..........LOL
> 
> The upside down badge is similar to the upside down serial numbers on some of the Chicago bikes! Either way, I like it that way. Not only is this a rare frameset, but it just may be the only one ever produced with the badge upside down.............?





Anyone can have a bike like everyone else. It takes a unique person to appreciate unique bikes.  👍

Again, super cool find!😍


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## Balloontyre (Oct 13, 2022)

Nice pick up! I've got a Japanese Takara with same frame fork, I don't know who made frames for them tho


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 13, 2022)

Mr. Monkeyarms said:


> Anyone can have a bike like everyone else. It takes a unique person to appreciate unique bikes.  👍
> 
> Again, super cool find!😍




Yes, it is a unique find that's for sure!

I have seen these frames before, and had a discussion about them on another bike forum a few years ago. So I had a bit of knowledge about them beforehand. I just couldn't believe my eyes when the seller sent me the pics of the frame they had. 😲

The seller gave me a price, and I said done deal. I had a bit of an issue with the seller in getting a shipping quote, but we resolved that after a few days. I almost thought the sale was going to fall through because of it. But it all worked out in the end......


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Oct 13, 2022)

I love it when you go to look at an old bike someone has with little to go on at first & find something truly rare/unique & better than expected!! 🤘😝🤘 It doesn't happen often enough but makes up for times when it goes the other way. Congrats!


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## Fritz Katzenjammer (Oct 13, 2022)

COOL! Build it up! Whats the point of having it if you don’t use it.

Some nice Araya rims on Sunshine hubs with an SR crankset, stem & seatpost and Suntour derailleur. (5speeds only please) Mmmmmm!

Oh... and Dia Comp brakes.

it would be that thing you only take out for a ride on the nicest days, the rest of the time you just polish it and look at it while your beer gets warm.

can you tell I like old Japanese bikes? Just a bit...


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## J-wagon (Oct 13, 2022)

Very cool! 👍. Some discussion about this by @Les who also has 1983 frame and fork.

Post in thread 'Need help IDing this '83 MTN bike' https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/need-help-iding-this-83-mtn-bike.208073/post-1437859


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## gkeep (Oct 13, 2022)

So you gonna "Rat " it out right?? 🤣😆🤪

Seriously, in coming years that will be like the TOC bikes out there that are still packed in the factory crate. Scarce as hens teeth and museum quality condition.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 13, 2022)

gkeep said:


> So you gonna "Rat " it out right?? 🤣😆🤪
> 
> Seriously, in coming years that will be like the TOC bikes out there that are still packed in the factory crate. Scarce as hens teeth and museum quality condition.




YES, this is a museum quality bike frame that's for sure! And I am still in awe of finding it in this condition after all these years!


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 13, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> YES, this is a museum quality bike frame that's for sure! And I am still in awe of finding it in this condition after all these years!



Leave it as it sits. Once you start building it up, it's no longer NOS.  This will only appreciate in value.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 14, 2022)

J-wagon said:


> Very cool! 👍. Some discussion about this by @Les who also has 1983 frame and fork.
> 
> Post in thread 'Need help IDing this '83 MTN bike' https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/need-help-iding-this-83-mtn-bike.208073/post-1437859




The serial number from my frame is just a bit earlier than the frame that Les has.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 14, 2022)

There seems to be 2 versions of this F&F in the 83 Schwinn catalogs! 

There is this lugged frame that is in my 83 dealer catalog, and another non lugged frame with tube forks in the 83 BMX dealer catalog with the same part number?


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## SirMike1983 (Oct 14, 2022)

I'd build it up to your liking and ride it. It was designed and manufactured to be ridden, and much of the beauty of something is in its fulfilling its purpose.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 14, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> I'd build it up to your liking and ride it. It was designed and manufactured to be ridden, and much of the beauty of something is in its fulfilling its purpose.




I do understand your point of view, but I have plenty of bikes to ride, and I don't ride any of them as often as I should!

This frame is museum quality, and it is going to stay that way in my Vintage Schwinn bike collection! Too much of our country's history is being destroyed in today's society, so I will do my part to preserve this piece of Schwinn MTB history for myself and others to enjoy!


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## Santee (Oct 15, 2022)

Thats a pretty cool piece of Schwinn history. Enjoy!


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## sue12 (Oct 16, 2022)

SKPC said:


> Very well made frame, BdgStn or otherwise. Good tubing, nice paint. Yea, schwinny was not and never was in the mtb game after going overseas. Don't think mtb was a priority for them when it took off nor was it ever.   Not many early mtb-ers were riding Schwinn made bikes back then when the sport was growing rapidly.  Too bad it isn't a butted tube frame!  You could build that up with period correct NOS stuff and then you would have a real Schwinn collector showcase bike for sure.



Is everyone missing the pic that says ipoopawa? That is a bike company in Japan that made frames for schwinn and others.


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## GTs58 (Oct 16, 2022)

sue12 said:


> Is everyone missing the pic that says ipoopawa? That is a bike company in Japan that made frames for schwinn and others.



 Is your poop awa the name of the fork manufacturer?  It's not the frame maker.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 16, 2022)

sue12 said:


> Is everyone missing the pic that says ipoopawa? That is a bike company in Japan that made frames for schwinn and others.




"Ipoopawa"..............???

I think you are referring too ISHIWATA who is a company that made the tubing used to build the frame and fork!


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## Les (Oct 16, 2022)

Somebody needs glasses. The name on the forks is Ishiwata . Ishiwata was bankrupted in 1990 but the manufacturing has continued as Kaisei tubing and is still available.
Xlobsterman
This frame and packaging is a Museum piece. Excellent reference for those wishing to restore another frame as I am.  Frame it in a glass box and hang it on the wall, you very lucky man. Does the seller have knowledge when the shop received it or how long it was in the store.
Know it is not a Bridgestone manufacture, just search Bridgestone Serial numbers and the number is no match. Bridgestone use either a number then letter, ie 5A or a letter then number, ie A5 never two letters as BS. This was to define which of their factories made the frame. Just do a google search for Bridgestone.
As is said my frame also has BS367823 and I have seen a few starting with BS but also other letters as below.
BS357553   
BS367578    BS 367641 for this frame
BS367823 
BS367845 
BS440296 
CS472494 
CS476244
KS314155 
Thus another reason why Bridgestone does not apply by referring to BS when CS and KS are to be seen.
In respect to 1983, the numbers above show a different picture.
The Serial number with the month letters B,C and K indicate something else. The second letter a year as per the Schwinn Chicago format doe indicate 1981 and these frames compare with Specialized 1982 lugged frames and other lugged frames of the period early 1980s. The serial number increase except for KS314155 does show an alignment with one year of manufacture with 6 numbers being applied as Schwinn had in the 80s.
We definitely need a Schwinn employee of the early 1980s to put in a comment.

Does 30 on the end of the box indicate one of 30 made.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 16, 2022)

Les said:


> Somebody needs glasses. The name on the forks is Ishiwata . Ishiwata was bankrupted in 1990 but the manufacturing has continued as Kaisei tubing and is still available.
> Xlobsterman
> This frame and packaging is a Museum piece. Excellent reference for those wishing to restore another frame as I am.  Frame it in a glass box and hang it on the wall, you very lucky man. Does the seller have knowledge when the shop received it or how long it was in the store.
> Know it is not a Bridgestone manufacture, just search Bridgestone Serial numbers and the number is no match. Bridgestone use either a number then letter, ie 5A or a letter then number, ie A5 never two letters as BS. This was to define which of their factories made the frame. Just do a google search for Bridgestone.
> ...




I believe the number on the box is in relation to a box count for shipping, and not a production number?


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## Les (Oct 16, 2022)

Xlobsterman,
That is sort of what I meant but of course there may have been other items boxed that are not one of these frames.
I have looked at Panasonic serial numbers that do not match what is on these frames, 
eg from Classic Japanese Bicycles
Again no match for what we have.

A = January      G = July
B = February     H = August
C = March        I  = September
D = April        J = October
E = May          K = November
F = Jun3         L = December

EXAMPLES
1982 Professional 7000   2B15380         2B not the same and only a 5 digit SN
2 = The build year 1982
B = Build month – February
15380 = The build number

Les


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## Dirtvelo (Oct 16, 2022)

I'm sure that I'm wrong but ii think those were made in 650 rim size


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## GTs58 (Oct 16, 2022)

Les said:


> Somebody needs glasses. The name on the forks is Ishiwata . Ishiwata was bankrupted in 1990 but the manufacturing has continued as Kaisei tubing and is still available.
> Xlobsterman
> This frame and packaging is a Museum piece. Excellent reference for those wishing to restore another frame as I am.  Frame it in a glass box and hang it on the wall, you very lucky man. Does the seller have knowledge when the shop received it or how long it was in the store.
> Know it is not a Bridgestone manufacture, just search Bridgestone Serial numbers and the number is no match. Bridgestone use either a number then letter, ie 5A or a letter then number, ie A5 never two letters as BS. This was to define which of their factories made the frame. Just do a google search for Bridgestone.
> ...




I can't believe you're still beating your head on the desktop over this serial number topic after everyone has tried to inform you! These serial numbers are not Schwinn numbers and like you said they don't match the standard Asian format either. They are a specialized format with the S thrown in for some reason that only the manufacturer may know for sure why, but us collectors believe it was used to indicate the frame was built for Schwinn. This abnormal serial numbering system actually started in 1974 when Schwinn outsourced the new model Le Tour in 1974. These serial numbers did not match any of Schwinn's formats, and because they contained the letter S before the Asian serial numbering format, they don't match the Asian format either. Also during that time it had no bearing when dating a Panasonic Schwinn since the S was just omitted/overlooked from the serial when dating the number. The Schwinn head badges were also stamped with the actual build date. So on these catalog frames the manufacturer just relocated the letter S between the month letter and the first number that was for the year. Simple simple simple. Lets give up this over thinking on this subject before you go totally nuts.  
I truly believe the S was just an indication that the frame/bike was built for Schwinn. Now how simple is that? 
SD400001 = D400001 April 1974. 
BS300001 =  B300001 Feb. 1983.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 17, 2022)

Les said:


> Xlobsterman,
> That is sort of what I meant but of course there may have been other items boxed that are not one of these frames.
> I have looked at Panasonic serial numbers that do not match what is on these frames,
> eg from Classic Japanese Bicycles
> ...




It is really hard to confirm if the serial numbers have any date code integrated into them without any documentation from Schwinn! As it is now, we can only speculate that, since it is very similar to the Chicago date codes with 2 letters and 6 numbers.

There seems to be a very limited, and short production run of these particular frames from Japan. But the frame design did carry over to the 84 & 85 models that came out of Taiwan as full production bikes, but they were a lower quality non lugged frame.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 17, 2022)

Dirtvelo said:


> I'm sure that I'm wrong but ii think those were made in 650 rim size




I am not sure what your point is? Please explain a little more clearly as to what you are trying to say!


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## Arthur Roy Brown (Oct 17, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> I am not sure what your point is? Please explain a little more clearly as to what you are trying to say!



That he's sure he is wrong?

If someone had wanted to spec 650 wheels on the frameset and the proper alpha character applied to "650" would fit the frameset, they probably could have done so.

What a fantastic find!  Being someone who is both a Schwinn Geek and rider of mountain bikes since that era, I'd have to agree that these framesets are the Holy Grail of Schwinn badged MTBs.

In regards to manufacturer, a previous poster mentioned the tubesets for the frame coming from Ishiwata and the Ishiwata made forks seem to be a common factor in these framesets.  During that time frame, Ishiwata was fabricating framesets for Bianchi and that has always left me wondering if Schwinn may have jumped ship from Panasonic for the fabrication of these.  I'd tend to agree with other notions that unless someone from the Head Shed at Schwinn who was involved in this chimes in, it'll be an eternal guessing game.


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## Arthur Roy Brown (Oct 17, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> It is really hard to confirm if the serial numbers have any date code integrated into them without any documentation from Schwinn! As it is now, we can only speculate that, since it is very similar to the Chicago date codes with 2 letters and 6 numbers.
> 
> There seems to be a very limited, and short production run of these particular frames from Japan. But the frame design did carry over to the 84 & 85 models that came out of Taiwan as full production bikes, but they were a lower quality non lugged frame.



The frameset MTBs had different geometry than the Taiwan-Built frames.  The top tube is much longer and sizing is different.  IIRC, the different geometry became a selling point after the advent of the Taiwan built bikes.  I know that some of the framesets were still being sold new and were built up by shops as late as 1985.


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## J-wagon (Oct 17, 2022)

Arthur Roy Brown said:


> During that time frame, Ishiwata was fabricating framesets for Bianchi and that has always left me wondering if Schwinn may have jumped ship from Panasonic for the fabrication of these.



I think that may be true. The Ross bikes of that time (ie, Mt. Hood, St Helens etc) were also made of Ishiwata tubing


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## Les (Oct 17, 2022)

GTs58,  Well your same old story as mine is.

Firstly Schwinn in 1981 made up to 999999 cycle frames with S after the Month A to M. That followed the Chicago format. The proof of this being applicable is accepting 1981.
Bikes made in the USA also have a number stamped onto the head badge. First three digits are the ordinal day and last digit is the year. 0409 is the 40th day of 1979. This is the date the bike was assembled.  The MTB frames we have were sold as frame/fork only and not completed.

Elsewhere with the Asian Serial Number Guide the Month (A to L) followed by the S followed by the year that I consider was for one year in the 80s decade, 1 to 9 followed by the sequential serial number. The S indicates Asian made for other cycle suppliers. No indication is given who the manufacturers were in the ASNG.  Although the ASNG and the Schwinn SN formats appear to be the same they are not in meaning.
I consider the ASNG cannot apply to the frames we have.
By what you sent Schwinn Le Tour and Super Le Tour models SOMETIME began with an "S" followed by the month A to M then the year last digit followed by the Japanese sequential SN. BUT THEY DON’T SAY THEY USED AN S IN THE SECOND PLACE, ONLY THE FIRST.

Japan Made numbering system : Letter is the month, number in the first or second position is the Year. NO S is used. Only one letter with numbers

Schwinn Le Tour were made as below in various locations in the USA, 1980 – Chicago, USA, 1981 – Japan, 1982, 1983, 1984 – Mississippi, USA.

As others are saying somebody from Schwinn at the time needs to explain all this.
One old comment made regarding Schwinn is that they did not get involved with MTB but that was due to Fisher/Kelly company Mountainbikes having an hold on the name so Schwinn used All Terrain Bikes particularly with the KING Sting range from 1980. This to me indicates Schwinn was interested at a low level more to suit youth getting involved with ATB and keeping them as Schwinn customers.

Below are a few printed reference to Schwinn MTB frames from 1982 referring to up coming 1983 MTB but that does not mean they were made earlier.
Les


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## J-wagon (Oct 17, 2022)

The nos ishiwata fork stamp indicates 1983 date which is consistent with 1983 schwinn literature as posted. So makes sense frame is 1983. My guess is BB stamp BS3xxxxx stands for Built (for) Schwinn 1983 👍👌


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## Les (Oct 17, 2022)

J wagon
The SN stamp is the confusion as Schwinn used the Chicago SN format from 1965 until 1983 where the first letter means month A to M excluding I and the second letter is A to U ie1965 to 1983 excluding I and O. I searched the Schwinn serial number lookup tool and it recognised BS as February 1981. Understanding Schwinn`s concern at being sued how would they allow in 1981 BSnnnnnn to be used  and then in 1983 BS3nnnnnn to be used again. As I have said there are other frames the same with CS4nnnnn and KS3nnnnn being used. With Japanese numbers the first number is given as a year and S is given as a Asian made. 
This S also gets confused with the Le Tour S in the SN first place or the ASNG S in the second place. These frames are stated as originating in 1981 when the uni crown forks failed and broke and were replaced. These frames where first shown by Schwinn in October 1982 but could have originated in 1981
Les


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## GTs58 (Oct 17, 2022)

Les said:


> J wagon
> The SN stamp is the confusion as Schwinn used the Chicago SN format from 1965 until 1983 where the first letter means month A to M excluding I and the second letter is A to U ie1965 to 1983 excluding I and O. I searched the Schwinn serial number lookup tool and it recognised BS as February 1981. Understanding Schwinn`s concern at being sued how would they allow in 1981 BSnnnnnn to be used  and then in 1983 BS3nnnnnn to be used again. As I have said there are other frames the same with CS4nnnnn and KS3nnnnn being used. With Japanese numbers the first number is given as a year and S is given as a Asian made.
> This S also gets confused with the Le Tour S in the SN first place or the ASNG S in the second place. These frames are stated as originating in 1981 when the uni crown forks failed and broke and were replaced. These frames where first shown by Schwinn in October 1982 but could have originated in 1981
> Les




Schwinn worrying about getting sued for a serial number? How absurd! I stamped two nameplates with serial numbers today, I wonder if my serial format was used by someone else and I might get sued. Ha ha!


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 18, 2022)

J-wagon said:


> The nos ishiwata fork stamp indicates 1983 date which is consistent with 1983 schwinn literature as posted. So makes sense frame is 1983. My guess is BB stamp BS3xxxxx stands for Built (for) Schwinn 1983 👍👌
> 
> View attachment 1714726




LOL.............that is a good one!

Maybe someday we will find some documentation to confirm a date code in the serial numbers on these frames? But until then, one can only speculate as to the correct way to decipher these serial numbers? OR...........if there is even any date code at all?


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## Arthur Roy Brown (Oct 18, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> Maybe someday we will find some documentation to confirm a date code in the serial numbers on these frames? But until then, one can only speculate as to the correct way to decipher these serial numbers? OR...........if there is even any date code at all?



Some of the early literature posted in this thread indicates they were being or going to be including Tange forks.  I haven't seen any with Tange forks.  It's all a huge guessing game and will probably remain so.

This frameset was purchased in 1985, so I'm only speculating that the first 4 in the SN indicates it was fabbed in 1984.  The rest is mumbo-jumbo to me.






Yes, it has an Ishiwata fork.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 18, 2022)

Arthur Roy Brown said:


> Some of the early literature posted in this thread indicates they were being or going to be including Tange forks.  I haven't seen any with Tange forks.  It's all a huge guessing game and will probably remain so.
> 
> This frameset was purchased in 1985, so I'm only speculating that the first 4 in the SN indicates it was fabbed in 1984.  The rest is mumbo-jumbo to me.
> 
> ...




Thanks for those pics! 

And I would be inclined to believe that the 3 on my F&F and the 4 on yours would indicate the production year!

Can you post pics of the complete F&F?


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## kingsting (Oct 18, 2022)

When I broke my Sidewinder at the BB in 1985 (Those heavy things were great jumpers, just not so hot at soft landings) the dealership replaced my frame with one of these framesets (only it had gold decals instead of white) and of course they had to swap out some other things as well (Crank, seatpost, BB, brakes and pedals). I ended up with a nice riding bastard bike that was lighter than what it replaced. It looked good with the blue Sidewinder wheels and brake levers too. Should have kept the thing but after starting my job at a bike shop, the temptation of all the shiny new iron in the showroom led me to sell it to get something newer.


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## Balloontyre (Oct 18, 2022)

Balloontyre said:


> Nice pick up! I've got a Japanese Takara with same frame fork, I don't know who made frames for them tho




This thread has my curiosity so I looked at my Takara serial number,  it starts with BS. Not sure this helps into the "S" as being a Schwinn designator.


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## J-wagon (Oct 18, 2022)

Balloontyre said:


> This thread has my curiosity so I looked at my Takara serial number, it starts with BS. Not sure this helps into the "S" as being a Schwinn designator.



Good point. The Google has posts and pics indicating takara, bianchi, other frames of the 1980s with alpha-S-number-xxxxx made by unknown mfg. Eg, B = February, S = unknown mfg, number = year. Eg BS3xxxxx = Feb 1983 with S representing as yet unknown Japanese frame mfg.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 18, 2022)

Balloontyre said:


> This thread has my curiosity so I looked at my Takara serial number,  it starts with BS. Not sure this helps into the "S" as being a Schwinn designator.




Is that serial number in the same spot on the underside of the bottom bracket? Any pics?


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## Les (Oct 18, 2022)

Xlobsterman,
In my searching the BSnnnnnn and others similar is in the same location, underside of the BB. J-wagon comment is correct and indicates the Asian Serial Number Guide but I consider the ASNG not to be the same as the Schwinn Chicago guide as I have seen a Bianche SN with IS513786 and that is confirmed as a August 1985. ASNG have stated they do not know what USA based manufacturers use as SN. I contacted Bianche and they could not confirm their SN format who made their Asian frames.
With Schwinn they have said the SN is placed on the frame at the beginning of production that can be years before  the final completion date indicated by the head badge stamping.  Your frame does indicate the number definitely originated in Japan and was not added in the USA when BMX factory imported the frames in 1981as Jim Hurd stated in the Schwinn book but I was having doubt about his statement.
Given all this exact dating problem there is no doubt the Frames came to Schwinn as your find shows. This does prove that Schwinn did have an interest in MTB bikes at least in 1982 by the Schwinn Reporter Fall/Winter 1982 that indicated the MTB would be in the 1983 Catalogue. Schwinn did use ATB from 1980. Therefore the frames could have been made earlier so they could be photographed for the 1983 catalogue. Therefore the SN BS3nnnnn is likely to be the Schwinn Chicago format not an Japanese one. Certainly not Bridgestone nor Panasonic by what is said in their description of their SN.
I attach photos of SN including the Bianche IS513786 to compare,
Les


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## Les (Oct 18, 2022)

To compare this is a Schwinn frame made in the Chicago factory in 1981 with a stamped Serial number KS530684.


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## GTs58 (Oct 18, 2022)

Les said:


> To compare this is a Schwinn frame made in the Chicago factory in 1981 with a stamped Serial number KS530684.
> 
> View attachment 1715505




This Chicago Schwinn was made on Monday, March 15, 1982.
 That serial number was stamped on the head tube in October 1981. Then that head tube was used in building a frame in 1982. 
The Schwinn serial number date has absolutely nothing to do with any build date, frame or otherwise. And the serial number on those catalog frames are not Schwinn's serial numbers. And Giants serial numbers on Schwinn bikes are not Schwinn serial numbers. Those BS3xxxxx serials have absolutely nothing to do with Schwinn's serial numbering. 
That statement made by Jim Hurd in the "Schwinn book" about importing frames in 81 could have very well been a big error on his part. Richard Schwinn gave a speech on Schwinn's marketing, and he stated that Schwinn did not build any bikes during WWII. That was a big brain fart on his part because Schwinn built thousands of bikes during war time!!! 

*Quote:* Therefore the SN BS3nnnnn is likely to be the Schwinn Chicago format not an Japanese one. Certainly not Bridgestone nor Panasonic by what is said in their description of their SN.
_Someone here can't see the forest thru the trees.  _


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## Les (Oct 18, 2022)

GTs58
In reply to your comments regarding the image of Schwinn head tubing SN stamping and head badge stamping.

You say this Chicago Schwinn was made on Monday, March 15, 1982. By the head badge stamping 0742 the cycle was completed Monday March 1982 74th day of 1982 along many other cycles on that one day.

My reply is that serial number KSnnnnnn was stamped on the head tube in October 1981. The completion date was not. At the start of the frame construction the head tube was pressed, then SN stamped and waited for the frame to be made from it and completed, painted then fitted up that took until March 82, a process that took 5 to 6 months of the SN stamping on the head tube being shuffled around the Chicago factory. The entire cycle was not built in one day from start to finish. It is logical the KS along with the sequential number is stamped at one time given the machinery involved and not best to be left until the cycle is completed as part of the Schwinn production ion the day.

The SN is stamped into the frame steerer head, not onto a screw fixed head badge that can be easily removed or swapped around.

Then the head tube was used in building a frame* from* October 1981.
The Schwinn serial number date has absolutely nothing to do with the final completion date ie the completion date, frame or otherwise. It indicates the inception date of the frame.

“the serial number on those catalogue frames are not Schwinn's serial numbers” This is the debate ongoing.

The Schwinn Owners operating & Maintenance Manual gives a description of what the Schwinn SN is and it starts with a month and year letters followed by 6 numbers as page attached ie GTnnnnnn. The final inspection date is shown but it is definitely not the SN.

Giants serial numbers on Schwinn bikes are not Schwinn serial numbers.

I do not know this nor do I need to.

Those BS3xxxxx serials have absolutely nothing to do with Schwinn's serial numbering. The Schwinn Owners operating & Maintenance Manual gives a description of what the SN is and it starts with a month and year 6 numbers as page attached ie GTnnnnnn. The final inspection date is shown but it is not the SN.

OK what do you consider to be the Serial Number and whose format is it.

Schwinn could have completed 4000 items for sale a day in 1981 all receiving the same completion date as stamped on the head tube badge. Maybe they are not all cycles. The SN for a cycle has to be individual thus the GTnnnnnn is, not the 0742 as place on 4000 items completed on that 74th day of 1982.

That statement made by Jim Hurd in the "Schwinn book" about importing frames in 81 could have very well been a big error on his part.

That is yet to be confirmed but it is one item that cannot be confirmed as Jim Hurd Has passed on.

Richard Schwinn gave a speech on Schwinn's marketing, and he stated that Schwinn did not build any bikes during WWII. That was a big brain fart on his part because Schwinn built thousands of bikes during war time!!!

I agree that Schwinn and of course many other cycle makers did make thousands of cycles during WWII as a military contract and not necessarily for public use, only military use as happened in other countries, from 1943 to 1946 the Schwinn serial numbers did not increase as they did before and after WWII. The USA military fund was used to cover the cost to a contractor and had importance over public need to have a child’s bike for Christmas. The numbers made and what was made by Schwinn could be a secret contract.

*Quote:* Therefore the SN BS3nnnnn is likely to be the Schwinn Chicago format not an Japanese one. Certainly not Bridgestone nor Panasonic by what is said in their description of their SN.

*This is what this debate is about.*


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## GTs58 (Oct 18, 2022)

The first debate was about you trying to prove that the serial numbers BS300001 were Schwinn's serial numbers, and they were dated to 1981.
This last debate was about you saying that bike/frame in the picture you posted with a KS serial was "built" in October 1981.

The fact is, NO they were not.

The serial numbers on these catalog frames are not Schwinn's stampings and they do not use Schwinn's SN format. It is the manufacturer's format. The S could mean anything but it's not used when simply dating the serial stamping. The manufacturer of these frames could have used the S for the indication that frame was specifically built for some other company. As in subcontract. Read the red print at the bottom left of this catalog page.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 19, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> That serial number was stamped on the head tube in October 1981. Then that head tube was used in building a frame in 1982.




And what factual information do you have to back up that claim? What proof do you have that the head tube wasn't used to build a frame in the same month that is was stamped?



GTs58 said:


> The Schwinn serial number date has absolutely nothing to do with any build date, frame or otherwise.




Then why did Schwinn even bother to have a date code system for their serial numbers on the frames?


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## J-wagon (Oct 19, 2022)

Les said:


> I attach photos of SN including the Bianche IS513786 to compare,
> Les



Interesting. I'm certain that this topic is fraught with uncertainties.

I think the posted BB stamps of looks like 1980s Japanese made frames are 
IS5xxxxx = Sept 1985
BS3xxxxx = Feb 1983 
CS4xxxxx = March 1984
KS3xxxxx = Nov 1983 
And the S for mystery frame mfg who was contracted by Schwinn, bianchi, takara, etc to build frames. 

I think production, fabrication, parts inventory logistics probly differed as contract contained obligations for deliverables frames within specified time period. So frame assembly, BBs stamping, paint etc occurred in alignment with efficient production schedule and frame/bike shipped out to schwinn, bianchi etc. Vs loose pieces made for contract eg stamped BB, cut tubes etc just sitting around for too long. 👌👍


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## Rusty Klunker (Oct 19, 2022)

Les said:


> To compare this is a Schwinn frame made in the Chicago factory in 1981 with a stamped Serial number KS530684.
> 
> View attachment 1715505




Hey, that bike looks familiar.


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## Arthur Roy Brown (Oct 21, 2022)

Great Thread, Would Read Again!


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## Balloontyre (Oct 24, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> Is that serial number in the same spot on the underside of the bottom bracket? Any pics?



Yes, same spot and orientation on bottom bracket, I can get a pic if you still need.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 25, 2022)

Balloontyre said:


> Yes, same spot and orientation on bottom bracket, I can get a pic if you still need.




I would like to see pics of the serial number, and the complete bike!


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## Balloontyre (Oct 25, 2022)

@Xlobsterman 
Here's the bike, its filthy clean, lol.
I bought it from the original owner, he said 85? Updated derailleurs at some point everything else looks stock 2 me.
I think fork & main frame as yours? I'll  be into it soon and can check fork tube stampings if you're interested.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 26, 2022)

Balloontyre said:


> @Xlobsterman
> Here's the bike, its filthy clean, lol.
> I bought it from the original owner, he said 85? Updated derailleurs at some point everything else looks stock 2 me.
> I think fork & main frame as yours? I'll  be into it soon and can check fork tube stampings if you're interested.
> ...




Very interesting. The frame is a very similar design, and has the same serial number format.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 27, 2022)

So in browsing Facebook this morning while drinking my coffee, I found this statement by Charlie Kelly about their "Mountain Bike" trademark being denied by the powers that be! You can download the PDF file from that FB group.


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 27, 2022)

Charlie Kelly is a wealth of information, and unlike many other legends, he is accessible. If you haven't already, pick up a copy of his book "Fat Tire Flyer". It is the definitive early history of the sport. A couple of quick (bad) pics of my '81 Everest.  Charlie likely built the wheels on this bike (gold Ukais with nutted Bullseye hubs) Will take better photos this weekend in daylight!


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 27, 2022)

DrRumack80 said:


> Charlie Kelly is a wealth of information, and unlike many other legends, he is accessible. If you haven't already, pick up a copy of his book "Fat Tire Flyer". It is the definitive early history of the sport. A couple of quick (bad) pics of my '81 Everest.  Charlie likely built the wheels on this bike (gold Ukais with nutted Bullseye hubs) Will take better photos this weekend in daylight!
> 
> View attachment 1720534
> 
> View attachment 1720535




Another good reference of the early industry days is this video DVD. It's a good watch.


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 27, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> Another good reference of the early industry days is this video DVD. It's a good watch.



Excellent film!  When it first came out, I purchased a signed copy from the Marin Museum, along with a signed copy of Fat Tire Flyer.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 27, 2022)

DrRumack80 said:


> Excellent film!  When it first came out, I purchased a signed copy from the Marin Museum, along with a signed copy of Fat Tire Flyer.
> 
> View attachment 1720549




I have the DVD also. It brings back lots of good memories for me when I was working at a shop during that era!


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 27, 2022)

Nice!   You were at the forefront during the sport's infancy. When the Stumpjumper was introduced, I was in 3rd grade. I came to appreciate these bikes later, after going from middleweights to ballooners/TOC bikes and finally to vintage mountain bikes. I'll be posting more of my collection in the Vintage MTB forum.


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## Greg47 (Oct 27, 2022)

DrRumack80 said:


> Nice!   You were at the forefront during the sport's infancy. When the Stumpjumper was introduced, I was in 3rd grade. I came to appreciate these bikes later, after going from middleweights to ballooners/TOC bikes and finally to vintage mountain bikes. I'll be posting more of my collection in the Vintage MTB forum.




Schwinn was late to the mountain bike design as they were to the BMX design. The book "No Hands: The Rise and Fall of the Schwinn Bicycle Company, an American Institution" covers this topic. The 1980 King Sting and 1982 Sidewinder were two examples of Schwinn trying to offer a bicycle with mountain bike characteristics

. I ride a 1982 Sidewinder frequently.


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 27, 2022)

Greg47 said:


> Schwinn was late to the mountain bike design as they were to the BMX design. The book "No Hands: The Rise and Fall of the Schwinn Bicycle Company, an American Institution" covers this topic. The 1980 King Sting and 1982 Sidewinder were two examples of Schwinn trying to offer a bicycle with mountain bike characteristics. I ride a 1982 Sidewinder frequently.



Nice!  That is a twin of my Sidewinder. Mine is a 21" frame (22" c-t).  The original Schwinn Studded Balloon tires are falling apart, at least at the sidewalls.  The Sidewinder was just a Varsity frame with fat tires. A logical solution, but a low tech one. They are great riding bikes, though.

Is "No Hands" still in print? Sounds like an interesting read.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 27, 2022)

Greg47 said:


> Schwinn was late to the mountain bike design as they were to the BMX design. The book "No Hands: The Rise and Fall of the Schwinn Bicycle Company, an American Institution" covers this topic. The 1980 King Sting and 1982 Sidewinder were two examples of Schwinn trying to offer a bicycle with mountain bike characteristicsView attachment 1720687. I ride a 1982 Sidewinder frequently.




That is correct. I was building custom MTB long before Schwinn came out with the KS, and Sidewinder. The pic I posted previously was taken in 79 sometime at a street race in Manhattan Beach, Calif. I also remember when the Stumpjumper hit the market during that time in about 81?


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## Greg47 (Oct 27, 2022)

DrRumack80 said:


> Nice!  That is a twin of my Sidewinder. Mine is a 21" frame (22" c-t).  The original Schwinn Studded Balloon tires are falling apart, at least at the sidewalls.  The Sidewinder was just a Varsity frame with fat tires. A logical solution, but a low tech one. They are great riding bikes, though.
> 
> Is "No Hands" still in print? Sounds like an interesting read.



Not sure, but I think it is out of print. You can find "No Hands" on ebay or Amazon as used books. They are not rare although some are priced higher than what I consider to be reasonable. I found my used library copy at Goodwill for $1.


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## Greg47 (Oct 27, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> That is correct. I was building custom MTB long before Schwinn came out with the KS, and Sidewinder. The pic I posted previously was taken in 79 sometime at a street race in Manhattan Beach, Calif. I also remember when the Stumpjumper hit the market during that time in about 81?
> 
> View attachment 1720713



Wow! The KS and Sidewinder look factory fresh.


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## Xlobsterman (Oct 27, 2022)

Greg47 said:


> Wow! The KS and Sidewinder look factory fresh.




The King Sting was a new dealer display model, and never sold until the shop closed. And the Sidewinder was a true barn find here in Maine, and just needed a good service and polish. Not even any brake wear on the rims!

Here is what it looked like when I got it.


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## DrRumack80 (Oct 27, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> The King Sting was a new dealer display model, and never sold until the shop closed. And the Sidewinder was a true barn find here in Maine, and just needed a good service and polish. Not even any brake wear on the rims!
> 
> Here is what it looked like when I got it.



The tires look better than the ones on mine. The sidewalls are cracking badly and peeling off. The tires are still rideable, though.


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## Chad H (Nov 27, 2022)

So what did cha do with the frame/fork?
Hopefully you built it up and riding the thing.
No bike was ever created to be wall art - ride it like it was intended. 
Nice find.


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## Xlobsterman (Nov 28, 2022)

Chad H said:


> So what did cha do with the frame/fork?
> Hopefully you built it up and riding the thing.
> No bike was ever created to be wall art - ride it like it was intended.
> Nice find.




I am assuming this post was directed at me?

The F&F are now hanging on my wall. As I stated previously, I have plenty of bikes to ride, that I don't ride often enough. IMO, it is more valuable as it sits, then if I built it up to ride.


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## Les (Dec 4, 2022)

Xlolobsterman
Good to see you are preserving the bike as it is, it is a piece of history in its own right and not to destroy it by building it up the riding it would not be a good thing. It can hang in a museum for its uniqueness, well until it is confirmed for its date.
I did measure and drew my frame in comparison to the Breezer frame of 1980/1 series 2 that is one the could have been copied by Schwinn,. Can you 
check your frame and the Schwinn KS for similarity particularly the geometry. If Schwinn copied our Frame they have they could have copied it for the KS.
Well, Breezer and Tom Ritchie and say they used the 1940`s Schwinn frame geometry for inspiration. Mountainbikes recycled old 1940s Schwinn frames.
The quote below confirms that Schwinn would have been reluctant to say MTB and called the frames they made ATB. Schwinn backed off using the clunker name for similar reasons.
Les


Xlobsterman said:


> So in browsing Facebook this morning while drinking my coffee, I found this statement by Charlie Kelly about their "Mountain Bike" trademark being denied by the powers that be! You can download the PDF file from that FB group.
> 
> View attachment 1720501


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## Xlobsterman (Dec 5, 2022)

Les said:


> Xlolobsterman
> Good to see you are preserving the bike as it is, it is a piece of history in its own right and not to destroy it by building it up the riding it would not be a good thing. It can hang in a museum for its uniqueness, well until it is confirmed for its date.
> I did measure and drew my frame in comparison to the Breezer frame of 1980/1 series 2 that is one the could have been copied by Schwinn,. Can you
> check your frame and the Schwinn KS for similarity particularly the geometry. If Schwinn copied our Frame they have they could have copied it for the KS.
> ...




This was your drawing of the frame?


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## Les (Dec 5, 2022)

Xlobsterman
Yes that is my drawing. The Breezer one is on web page by Peter Verdone  http://www.peterverdone.com/breezer-series-2-1980-81/
Les


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## Balloontyre (Saturday at 6:16 PM)

GTs58 said:


> Read the red print at the bottom left of this catalog page.
> 
> View attachment 1715627



I'm puzzled a bit, what exactly does the disclaimer mean?
On a side note, I noticed the king sting frames are available in this 1983 catalog,  were they actually? My understanding is the King was 81 & 82, although on on a popular bmx site seems every one thinks they own a 1980 king sting, likely MR frames(81 production)that they base this on?
So what years did schwinn offer the King as  completes or just frames. I've read somewhere Red or Blue were frame only options not complete units.


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## GTs58 (Saturday at 9:42 PM)

Balloontyre said:


> I'm puzzled a bit, what exactly does the disclaimer mean?
> On a side note, I noticed the king sting frames are available in this 1983 catalog,  were they actually? My understanding is the King was 81 & 82, although on on a popular bmx site seems every one thinks they own a 1980 king sting, likely MR frames(81 production)that they base this on?
> So what years did schwinn offer the King as  completes or just frames. I've read somewhere Red or Blue were frame only options not complete units.
> View attachment 1764786




Since that was a 1983 publication I can't say what frames if any were made by Schwinn at that time. I know all those MTB frames were imported from Japan. The Cruiser and EF frames made in 1981 and 1982 were made by Schwinn in Chicago and then the Murray took over in 1983. All the MR serial stamped head tubes were used to build frames in 81 and some MR serial frames were also built in 82. Since Schwinn didn't build the frames in 1983, that might be the reason for that disclaimer.  Another reason could be there might not have a warranty from Schwinn on these either. Schwinn had their hands full for the years after the strike and the closing of Chicago, so that crazy disclaimer was there to maybe divert any liabilities? Not sure if that disclaimer was on the 1981 and 1982 catalog pages for these frames.


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## Xlobsterman (Sunday at 3:24 AM)

Balloontyre said:


> I'm puzzled a bit, what exactly does the disclaimer mean?
> On a side note, I noticed the king sting frames are available in this 1983 catalog,  were they actually? My understanding is the King was 81 & 82, although on on a popular bmx site seems every one thinks they own a 1980 king sting, likely MR frames(81 production)that they base this on?
> So what years did schwinn offer the King as  completes or just frames. I've read somewhere Red or Blue were frame only options not complete units.
> View attachment 1764786




The first model year for the KS was 81, and yes, the red & blue were sold as frames only for custom builds.

Here is a pic from my 82 dealer catalog with no disclaimer like the 83 page.


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## Olds442 (Monday at 3:14 PM)

….although I’m not very interested in mountain bikes, that was the most interesting discussion I’ve read here.  Book titles, old pictures , shots from dealer books and lots of speculation.   Like watching one of those mysteries taking place on a train.  Hope there’s a sequel.  Those number stamps are intriguing.   Thank you Gents


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## Xlobsterman (Tuesday at 12:33 AM)

Olds442 said:


> ….although I’m not very interested in mountain bikes, that was the most interesting discussion I’ve read here.  Book titles, old pictures , shots from dealer books and lots of speculation.   Like watching one of those mysteries taking place on a train.  Hope there’s a sequel.  Those number stamps are intriguing.   Thank you Gents




Yes, lots of speculation on this particular subject since there is minimal documentation on this frame set I recently acquired. 

The thread did go a bit off topic at the end, but hopefully some more documentation will surface in relation to this frame set because of this threads existence?


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## Olds442 (Yesterday at 3:03 PM)

Not really off topic.  More of a case of deeper study. It was all related. I feel the upside front plate is why you have it. Someone ordered one, that one came.   The dealer called Schwinn to see what to do. Since they they use a different mount system then us, the Schwinn guy threw his hands up.  Just send them another d….. frame.   Ain’t worth shipping back.


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## Xlobsterman (Today at 12:37 AM)

Olds442 said:


> Not really off topic.  More of a case of deeper study. It was all related. I feel the upside front plate is why you have it. Someone ordered one, that one came.   The dealer called Schwinn to see what to do. Since they they use a different mount system then us, the Schwinn guy threw his hands up.  Just send them another d….. frame.   Ain’t worth shipping back.




That is a very good theory as to why this new frame and fork was still in the box after 40 years! 

Knowing how the Japanese are so meticulous when it comes to producing quality products, I still find it hard to believe that it made it through the quality control inspection at the factory, and was shipped out that way? But, I guess when humans are involved, they are still prone to making mistakes. That is why pencils still come with erasers on the ends of them after all these years...........LOL

In the collectable world, factory defects such as the upside down head badge can actually increase the value for some, as it is even more rare than a properly assembled frame. And for me, having this unique frame with the improperly installed head badge makes it more valuable in my eyes, since there may not be another one in existence?????


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