# indian?



## Nickinator (Nov 28, 2012)

So I was told this is an indian frame any idea what it really is?
no head badge or sprocket came with it.


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## redline1968 (Nov 28, 2012)

columbia and indian shared the same frame.  the fork is  a give away to a columbia. oh. i forgot to say 1920's+ in date


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## Nickinator (Nov 28, 2012)

redline1968 said:


> columbia and indian shared the same frame.  the fork is  a give away to a columbia. oh. i forgot to say 1920's+ in date




thanks so much

Edit: do you have any pictures of what it might look like done or what its going to look like?


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## MrColumbia (Nov 28, 2012)

That style frame/fork was used from 1917 to 1922 or 23. Here is one from the 1921 catalog. They also came un-equipped without tanks and lights most years. The serial number may have a letter in front of it that may shed light on the exact year.   http://vintagecolumbiabikes.com/id79.html


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## Nickinator (Nov 28, 2012)

MrColumbia said:


> That style frame/fork was used from 1917 to 1922 or 23. Here is one from the 1921 catalog. They also came un-equipped without tanks and lights most years. The serial number may have a letter in front of it that may shed light on the exact year.   http://vintagecolumbiabikes.com/id79.html
> 
> View attachment 74945




thanks ken, I am going to brush off the serial number but, its pretty poorly stamped.
would it have ever come with these fenders?


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## Nickinator (Nov 28, 2012)

Under crank looks like 16061, does that look right to you?

Also, was checking our stash of headbadges before we had a clue what it was, and ironically 
the one that fit the holes says Geneva, by Westfield. Is that badge age/model appropriate? ...what's the chances...
Darcie


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## Gary Mc (Nov 28, 2012)

Those fenders were used on mid teens Hendee Indians but there is a Westfield camelback on eBay right now with them as well. I think bicyclebones has it for sale, I'll look after work tonight.


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## Nickinator (Nov 28, 2012)

Gary Mc said:


> Those fenders were used on mid teens Hendee Indians but there is a Westfield camelback on eBay right now with them as well. I think bicyclebones has it for sale, I'll look after work tonight.




Ahhh found it. Very cool. I don't suppose I could afford those fenders even if he did part it out....and love that seat. Oh well, I'll keep digging in old attics.


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## MrColumbia (Nov 29, 2012)

Nickinator said:


> thanks ken, I am going to brush off the serial number but, its pretty poorly stamped.
> would it have ever come with these fenders?
> View attachment 74949




1917 - 1920 for those fenders with the flair.


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## fordsnake (Nov 29, 2012)

Gary Mc said:


> I think bicyclebones has it for sale, I'll look after work tonight.




Gary, is there a link to this particular bike?


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## MrColumbia (Nov 29, 2012)

Here is the 1919 showing the flaired front fender.


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## Gary Mc (Nov 29, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> Gary, is there a link to this particular bike?




http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Early-...397?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564f34cf0d

Didn't sale again at $1200, his original listing was $1700 so he cut the price $500 between listings.  Those fenders probably make it a $1000 bike to me since it is an off-brand Pope/Westfield camelback.  I'd love to have those fenders & bike is pretty cool but then I like camelbacks & Popes.


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## bike (Nov 29, 2012)

*I thought*

that I did research in the distant past and found that what I call the REAL Hendee Manufacturing  Indian brand bike- has a split crank hangar and several other features


 This being the grail- lots of other models produced. There are disagreements as to who actually produced the 
bikes- I have period advertisements that says BUILT AND BACKED BY THE MAKERS OF THE FAMOUS INDIAN MOTOCYCLE. Other say Westfield due, in part, to manufacturing techniques, and one very clean original seemed to have a Davis Sewing decal on it...I am certain Chitown will say built by Mead(Yuk,Yuk)

The flared fenders were made by (if memory serves) Excelsior Metal Stamping- I do not know where, but I do not think it was the company that made the bikes.

I believe I read in a period magazine that the bike was introed in 15 with a 2 piece crank, similar to Iver j. 

Here is a 1916 page - poor copy- seems to indicate big flair.




The first coupla years used the "pierced" INDIAN Script badge, later the one with the Indian face Hendee Mfg, then Indian Motocycle Co. Would like to document this.

Some years had a black headlamp others nickel. Again need dates. Any running changes that can be documented would be helpful- I THINK the early fenders used a cut out at the rear seat stays and later an indent but I am not sure if this is a year thing or "make it fit" manufacturing...

I am not sure of the last year of production of the "grail" bike. In about 1922 Hendee went into receivership and emerged as Indian MOTOCYCLE (correct spelling) company. The information on the web from a quick Google search often omits this entirely and says that DuPont took over Indian in 1930 (not Hendee or Indian motocycle co) 

http://indianmcc.com/people.html:

"1912, Hendee Manufacturing, was the world's largest motorcycle manufacturer. In 1913, the company's production peaked at 32,000 units. The company's name was changed to Indian Motocycle in November of 1923."  Some sites say 1928 but I think that is wrong. I do not know why this info is not at the head of the Google list when searching Hendee or Indian receivership.

I do believe that these INDIAN MOTOCYCLE CO bikes were made by Westfield- no citation but just from experience and they often came in blue green black and had intricate transfers instead of pinstripe.

I have been trying to gather info on the "grail" bike as this is the most interesting to me- of course Indian/Hendee bikes were made earlier and Indian brand bikes were made/"badge engineered" off and on in the USA, Germany and the UK.  Any info greatly appreciated.


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## Nickinator (Nov 29, 2012)

Wow, good info Bike- you are a great custodian of all things Hendee/Indian! If we comes across any more info we'll be sure to let you know!

So, anyone/Mr Columbia have a clue on that s/n we posted? 16061 
Or, if that GENEVA headbadge is age/model ok? (what was GENEVA?)

Thx!
Darcie


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## Gary Mc (Nov 29, 2012)

bike said:


> I believe I read in a period magazine that the bike was introed in 15 with a 2 piece crank, similar to Iver j.




Columbia bikes made by Westfield used both 1 and 2 piece cranks as well from sometime in the teens to 1930 calling the 2 piece crank models, Superb.  1931 was the first year only the 1 piece crank was used.

There are a couple of other similarities in the fenders as well as the use of aluminum pedals on models certain years.  My theory (& it is a theory) on these was Hendee built them as long as they had factory capacity and that as factory capacity was more & more required for motorcycles over the years production probably moved to Westfield sourcing components & ultimately complete bikes.  The aluminum pedals are a good case in point as Indian was using them in years before Westfield was, who I believe used them from 1924 to 1930.  Another case in point is these fenders which per Ken, Westfield used them 1917 to 1920, but again Indian was using them earlier.  Could it be that Indian developed these ideas followed by Westfield using them, maybe or maybe Westfield developed them for Hendee, Westfield definitely copied other ideas from other manufacturers at times post-1900, a case in point being their earliest coaster brake they tried to patent, a patent which was ultimately assigned by the U.S. Patent office to New Departure Mfg after a 14 year patent battle.  It could be that as Pope began manufacturing components for Hendee there became a working agreement to allow Westfield to use ideas developed by Hendee, who knows but this is definitely an area that needs a lot of research.

Anyway Just Food for Thought.......


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## bike (Nov 29, 2012)

[;190307]Columbia bikes made by Westfield used both 1 and 2 piece cranks as well from sometime in the teens to 1930 calling the 2 piece crank models, Superb.  1931 was the first year only the 1 piece crank was used.

Westfield definitely copied other ideas from other manufacturers at times post-1900, a case in point being their earliest coaster brake they tried to patent, a patent which was ultimately assigned by the U.S. Patent office to New Departure Mfg after a 14 year patent battle.  It could be that as Pope began manufacturing components for Hendee there became a working agreement to allow Westfield to use ideas developed by Hendee, who knows but this is definitely an area that needs a lot of research.

Anyway Just Food for Thought.......[/QUOTE]

There is a patent for the aluminum pedals that I seem to remember being 1923- cannot find it at present. Hmmm-Thanks Google: (QUOTE=Gary Mc

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...mbia-aluminum-frame-pedals-replacement-blocks

Wow we are a circular bunch!

I had a prototype new departure tire siren that had documentation from NDs legal dept to cease and desist development of said siren due to infringement of a Bevin patent- I wish I still had it today....(Anyway Just Food for Thought....)


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## MrColumbia (Nov 30, 2012)

Nickinator said:


> Wow, good info Bike- you are a great custodian of all things Hendee/Indian! If we comes across any more info we'll be sure to let you know!
> 
> So, anyone/Mr Columbia have a clue on that s/n we posted? 16061
> Or, if that GENEVA headbadge is age/model ok? (what was GENEVA?)
> ...




 The serial number does not shed any new info on the year. On Columbia and Westfield models there is typically a letter which corresponds to the catalog model for that year. That letter is not always on Non-Columbia badged bikes. Geneva is a name I have seen before on Westfield built bikes, I have a Geneva badge in my collection. I have no idea who they were built for or the years the name Geneva was used by Westfield. The Wheelmen site lists a Geneva bicycle company from 1895-1899. They may have been part of the ABC but I am not sure. If so that would be how Pope got the name. There are references to a company in Geneva Ohio and a company in New York.
 "Westfield Mfg. Co." was formed in 1916 from the bankrupt Pope Mfg. Pope Mfg had used from the start the big national bicycle names like Rambler, Tribune, Monarch, ect after the fall of the ABC. It seems that when the Westfield Mfg was formed in 1916 all of the dozens, possibly hundreds of smaller names associated with the ABC were ressurected. Westfield may have been using them to market in areas that those names were known. Just a working theory. Maybe Geneva was used to sell bicycles in the Ohio area.


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