# 26" vs 27" Wheels



## wrongway (Jan 12, 2019)

How much difference does 26x1-3/8 wheel/tire vs 27x1-1/4 wheel/tire make? I know the latter can be higher pressure, but the the taller wheel make a difference when it comes to going faster?


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## SKPC (Jan 12, 2019)

It is much more complicated than that.  The most influential determinant of speed is the rider.  Taller wheels roll over stuff easier but are not necessarily faster.  But for sure "light is right"....


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## juvela (Jan 12, 2019)

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Blogger Jan Heine has some detailed remarks on the subject -

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/12-myths-in-cycling-1-wider-tires-are-slower/

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2019/01/03/myth-16-higher-tire-pressure-is-faster/

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/05/23/tire-width-how-much-difference-do-a-few-millimeters-make/

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## SKPC (Jan 12, 2019)

^Fantastic links to tire widths and pressures in the links above by  @juvela.   Thank you for those...informative and trending today...


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## morton (Jan 13, 2019)

SKPC said:


> It is much more complicated than that.  The most influential determinant of speed is the rider.  Taller wheels roll over stuff easier but are not necessarily faster.  But for sure "light is right"....




I had the SA 3 sp hub from a 26" wheel laced onto a 27" alloy rim on one of my Speedster.  Incredible difference. Of course part of that was going from steel to alloy, but another factor was using 90 psi tires that not only roll better due to high pressure but have a smaller tire footprint and thus a bit less rolling resistance. I think it also changed the gearing slightly.  Nevertheless, it's become my favority bike.  I'm thinking of doing it to a ratty racer that got a full repaint but still has it's 26" steelies.


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## Sven (Jan 13, 2019)

Calculating , the circumference of a 27 inch tire properly inflated will give you 1 inch further distance traveled than that of a 26 inch per rotation. At 63,360 rotations of the wheel , you will travel 1 mile further using the 27 inch wheel.


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## harpon (Jan 13, 2019)

The jump up to 27" and down to alloy rims was the natural progression of cycling advancement.  Yes, 27 rolls better- especially 1 1/8 opposed to 1 1/4" tires when I had my first Varsity as a teen,  I soon found this the fact of life, and it did come with a little trade off- the 1 1/8" tires wore faster and needed replacing sooner- but back then, at those prices, and knowing the shortcomings of the poor old Varsity,   not much of a trade-off.

  I'll soon be getting  rid of a Hercules 3 speed frame I put some 27" 3 speed coaster wheels from a Schwinn World Tourist on.  I always wanted to try 700's on a three speed, but circumstance led me to this first.  I found the 27 wheels fit, although the front starts to impede on the turning radius a little bit- I was surprised the front is more trouble than the back.  (The bear trap pedals do NOT help this!  But wide pedals are great for climbing, especially sans clips and straps)  700c wheels would be a slightly smaller solution- fit the frame- and work well on a three speed I think.  Plus a larger selection of both rims and tires- I'll concede- but usually pick as thin as I can go.


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## wrongway (Jan 14, 2019)

I've been exploring different gear ratios on one of my old three speed bikes that is sort of set up like a road bike. Someone once said that 46x20 was a really good gear selection. I know my Rudge Clubman felt pretty fast at 46x17, but I want to see how fast I can get a three speed bike and still maintain a high average. I am going to take one on a 70+ mile trail ride in the summer. I remembered that I have a 27x1-1/8 aluminum wheel set with a Brampton 140B-3. (are Brampton hubs trustworthy?) I had abandoned them due to the hub slipping in second. Now looking back, I think it was due to the plastic fulcrum sleeve relieving the tension. Might be worth trying again.


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## Sven (Jan 14, 2019)

harpon said:


> The jump up to 27" and down to alloy rims was the natural progression of cycling advancement.  Yes, 27 rolls better- especially 1 1/8 opposed to 1 1/4" tires when I had my first Varsity as a teen,  I soon found this the fact of life, and it did come with a little trade off- the 1 1/8" tires wore faster and needed replacing sooner- but back then, at those prices, and knowing the shortcomings of the poor old Varsity,   not much of a trade-off.
> 
> I'll soon be getting  rid of a Hercules 3 speed frame I put some 27" 3 speed coaster wheels from a Schwinn World Tourist on.  I always wanted to try 700's on a three speed, but circumstance led me to this first.  I found the 27 wheels fit, although the front starts to impede on the turning radius a little bit- I was surprised the front is more trouble than the back.  (The bear trap pedals do NOT help this!  But wide pedals are great for climbing, especially sans clips and straps)  700c wheels would be a slightly smaller solution- fit the frame- and work well on a three speed I think.  Plus a larger selection of both rims and tires- I'll concede- but usually pick as thin as I can go.
> 
> View attachment 933036



So would you go down 700 x 23(0.905 inch) size tires? That is a thin tire


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## Iverider (Jan 14, 2019)

The tires of yesterday are not near as nice as the tires of today. The cliffs notes of the Jan Heine article is a larger volume tire run at lower pressure will allow faster speed because they roll over obstacles instead of being directed upward when encountering imperfections in the road like a narrow high pressure tire will.
I ride 700x28 on my road bike and 700x40 on my touring bike. They're both comfortable and quite fast.

The issue existing between 27" or 630 ISO and 26 x 1-3/8" or 590 ISO is that quality tires are few and far between. Panaracer makes some that would be good for either size, but that's about it as far as quality tires as far as I know. If you go to 700c or 622 ISO you'll have a vast selection of tires to choose from.

Another thought to consider, is raising your bottom bracket height when putting a larger wheel on a frame designed for smaller wheels. Though I doubt you'll be leaning a Hercules over in a turn, it will alter the handling characteristics.


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## bulldog1935 (Jan 14, 2019)

Compass junkie here - Barlow and Stampede Pass ELs on all my bikes (except my Moser, on Vittoria Open Pave hand-glued tires).
Compass are the best vulcanized tires ever made, and you can only tell them from good tubulars before they warm up.
They also offer 700c, 650b and 26" (ISO 559) in a wide range of widths, and fast knobbies, as well.





If you're looking for good 590s - Brit 650A, you can get them from Japan - all these tires are made by Panaracer (Compass included), but with proprietary casings and compounds
https://cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/279817/935974/list.html

If you need 27" (ISO 630) Panaracer Pasela is really the only good choice, available from 1" to 1-1/4" - these don't have the fancy casings and compounds of the tires above, but are the best out there in this rim size.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jan 14, 2019)

in a nutshell, no. a taller tire will make no noticeable difference with everything else being equal.

lighter hoops, better bearings, and high pressure tires are what makes a bike faster with the same rider.   the we get into 20 bladed spokes on deep rims with 130 PSI slicks if you want to be really fast


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## Duchess (Jan 14, 2019)

High pressure skinnies vs lower pressure wider tires is like stiff suspension vs more compliant or, to a lesser extent, lower vs higher profile tires on a sports car. The formers are better for ultimate times under perfect conditions, the latters are faster in the real world of bumps and debris where the last tenth can't be used, not least of which because the rider/driver gets beat up less. I personally prefer wheels on the larger side (700c/29) with wider tires and appropriate gearing. When I went from 700 x 23 @ 100 psi (tried 120, but kept getting flats and I almost never get flats) to 700 x 28 @ 85 on my road bike (have to deflate and QR the brakes to remove the wheels), it made the bike much more comfortable and it seems to conform to the road surface in turns rather than skipping along. Lost some sharpness to the handling, but I'm not a racer, anyway.


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## Iverider (Jan 14, 2019)

Racers are rolling fatties these days compared to the norm in the nineties.


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## bulldog1935 (Jan 14, 2019)

What you gain with fine casings even in clinchers is, like a high-grade tubular, the carcass spreads the road shock farther through the casing, and less through the frame and fork.
On cold mornings you can tell the difference between the U of a clincher and the perfect doughnut of a tubular.
All my friends have come around and are ex-teeth-chatterers, now also riding on clouds.
The smallest tires I ride are 27mm, and those are the hand-glued with 320 tpi linen-polyester casings.
It's always wise to mount the widest tires that give good clearance on your bike.
Especially if you believe Jan's logic, most "racer wisdom" is myth, though the aero factor is a worthwhile argument.
Racers need every edge they can get, because they often win or lose by seconds - the rest of us go plenty fast and still out pace most people on their skinny hard tires.



as far as pressure goes, a tire that conforms to the road surface is faster, though many people believe their senses that ragged-edge road chatter is faster.
In reality, the tire loses momentum every time it leaves the road, and has to catch up when it recontacts, so high-pressure-induced road chatter is self-limiting on speed.

An important point about Berto chart for tire load and pressure, optimizing the contact patch can quadruple the life of your tire tread.  This is somewhat important if you're buying high-dollar tires.  Too high pressure, you're not riding as fast/efficient, and your tires wear out in one-fourth of the miles.


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## harpon (Jan 14, 2019)

Sven asked me: So would you go down 700 x 23(0.905 inch) size tires? That is a thin tire

Depends- but yes- both my 67 Peugeot PX10- my "daily driver" since '87, and a Schwinn World Sport I ride through the hoods have 23mm tires- and roll very well.










But If I carry a lot in baskets or have a motor I obviously need some more tire support  I rarely go over 28 or 32 mm now, even with a 66cc China Girl two stroke, and considering I'm quite a bit heavier than what I weighed racing between 1971 and 1984.  I set that up at first with 27x 1 1/4, figuring that was enough rubber and profile- and not a tire has ever really equaled the 27 x 1/1/4 or 1 1/8 RAISED CENTER tire that was THE STANDARD clincher of my youth





by 1971 I was on fragile sew-ups until 700 clinchers came along in the mid -80's- the raised center clincher sets it even more apart from it's size, and it seems you can only find it on better 700c tires,  or until it matters little at 25 or 23 mm.  The China Girl Micargi evolved from 26 beach tires to 1 3/4 tires- very familiar from my middle weight young days- to one 27 wheel chopper look on the front until finally two on both wheels-








same bike- new paint






Each time the roll got better and the speed and lower stress on the tiny motor, or the peddling through the parking lots or to get it going to pop the clutch, or coasting a half of a mile after killing the motor with the kill switch-
The 27 wheels did not work out only because I was breaking  spokes on the back- a greater pain dealing with a larger motor chain- I eventually went to 700c wheels- breakage solved- and usually rode a 50 cc, but now mostly silent running electric.









A 35 mm rear 700 c tire proved to have too much profile that wanted to collapse in turns, so I went back to 32mm Kenda Kevlar there.  I haven't so much put a dent in a rim in flat temperate Florida, Although I did that once on an alloy rim and 25 tires years back now, on a pedal bike.

Yes- in fact those are the same blue tires now on the Hercules above.

Anyway 700 c tires come in sizes for every weight and use and I'm a big fan.


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## bulldog1935 (Jan 16, 2019)

@Sven
Biggest problem with skinny high pressure is throw in one loose rock on a turn, and you could be down - even a 27mm at Berto chart pressure keeps me upright.
A bigger fast soft tire makes an amazing difference on a wet surface.

What I always noticed with Panaracer Pasela in 27" is they didn't handle well or even ride particularly well far below rated pressure, i.e., Berto chart and x1-1/4" - but they're still the best tire available in 27"
So I would say if you're going to run Pasela in 27", pick the x1-1/8" and ride them about 85-90 psi.  They do make a x1" tire you could run at a little higher pressure.

If you have a 27-inch bike, coverting it to 700c rims - lowering the brake pads by 4mm - opens up a world of wonderful tires that they just don't make in 27-inch.



The Challenge "open tubular" (hand-glued clinchers) just above ride incredibly soft and fast, but I gave up on them because the bead would stretch out before the tread wore out. 
They also offer really fast knobby cross tires in 30 and 33mm sizes. 
If you're lighter (I'm 6'3", 210) and can run these at lower Berto chart pressures, they don''t suffer this problem - my friend's daughter is still riding a set of 25mm donated from my daughter's bike (replaced with Veloflex).  Challenge also have a lower profile than any tire, and will fit a wider size in a low-brake-clearance bike.  Her '85 Shogun had 19mm tires, and we were able to fit the 25mm Strada just fine.
The Vittorias don't have this bead problem, and they are taller profile, but the Challenge bead problem finally led me to Compass vulcanized tires in my larger sizes, and my addiction.

But I really like Challenge in tubulars - long life, tough as nails, soft, fast ride.


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## SKPC (Jan 16, 2019)

Regarding 26 vs 27 or 28's.     A 26"(559) rim with a 2.3" or 2.4" tire is about the same diameter as a 700cc with a midsized tire.  The difference is slightly less than 1/4 ".    I have no idea what this translates to performance-wise.     I have not much experience with 27's or 28's but run my 26 x 2.125's at 47lbs in front and 53lbs in back in a road tread and find them to be plently supple and fast on my 26-er wheels.  I can lean my bike waaaay over at speed and still feel connected.  I don't feel that connection on road bike tires....Fatter tires in any wheel size seems to be trending, and the casings and materials are always improving to the betterment of riders.  There is of course a breaking point I am sure......
         The links above speaking to tire widths and pressures and the effects on speed is worth reading, and there is also information on weights as well that is a bit surprising.   I really notice the tire weights when changing tires out to lighter or heavier on my 26-er rides...


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## bulldog1935 (Jan 16, 2019)

also why the French went to 650b (French 26") on their randos - to fit big tires


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## rhm (Jan 16, 2019)

My experience is based on having ridden bikes with 20" wheels, three different 26" sizes (559, 584, 590), 700c, and 27"; and tires ranging from 1" width to 2" width; and, of course, what I've read on the internet.  My conclusions are:

Overall wheel diameter is a very small factor.
Bearing quality is also only a small factor.  
The combination of small wheels and bad bearings is going to combine the minor disadvantages of both, and may actually be measurable.  I doubt it, though.

Higher pressure tires feel faster (but the advantage is illusory).  They don't actually roll faster; they only feel faster.

There definitely are faster tires and slower tires.  You can really feel slow tires.  I read that this difference is measurable, but I have not measured it.  I tend to believe that a high quality tire (like a Compass tire) at fairly low pressure is the best of both worlds.  Fatter tires at relatively low pressure are definitely more comfortable, though, and comfort adds to a major advantage on long rides.  I have a bike with Compass Rat Trap Pass tires (26 x 2.3) and I rode it successfully on 300 km, 400 km, 360 km, 600 km, and 1200 km brevets last year.  No regrets.


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## wrongway (Jan 18, 2019)

bulldog1935 said:


> also why the French went to 650b (French 26") on their randos - to fit big tires
> View attachment 933934



What kind of bike is this? That is.....wow!


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## bulldog1935 (Jan 18, 2019)

wrongway said:


> What kind of bike is this? That is.....wow!



I wish I knew, stumbled on it looking for a fat 650b tire - I'll go hunting again - nice thing about The CABE, it permanently archives photos used in your posts.
I'll be back...


Found a later version elsewhere
*Sauvage Lejeune Campeur Bike*
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/39151498@N07/sets/72157626711955076/

found it on my google history, but the link didn't bring up the photo - it's somewhere on this bikeforums thread
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/612294-show-your-french-bikes-20.html
but clearly, this bike below is older than the 1960 example, must be 30s-40s
double-cable-pull derailleurs, and chainstay-mounted RD, on a frame braze-on
I think that's a dust cover over the cottered steel Stronglight crank
totally a holy grail dream bike (and my size)




maybe @juvela can identify and date this drivetrain - I couldn't find it on Disraeli Gears, including scanning through their documents, but similar derailleurs are late 30s


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## rhm (Jan 19, 2019)

Isn't that a Nivex derailleur?


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## bulldog1935 (Jan 19, 2019)

that's what I'm asking - can you date it?

Maybe this is it - beginning 1938
http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Nivex_derailleurs.html

here we go, positive ID on velobase, no dates - Nivex flanged lower pulley




ok, and same derailleur on this '62 Singer, so maybe that is the '60 Savage Lejuene Campeur
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/half-a-century-old-and-still-going-strong/


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## rhm (Jan 19, 2019)

I'm no expert on Nivex derailleurs, have never seen one. From my reading I gather the company went under, and Alex Singer bought up the remaining stock, which was mostly unassembled parts. They had some of the steel bits chromed, and had the missing parts made, and continued to sell the derailleurs into the 1960's. 

I can't quite read the stamps on the saddle, but it looks like an early 1960's Idéale 42. I don't see anything to suggest a date before 1960, but what do I know. Nivex isn't the only thing I'm not an expert on....


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## juvela (Jan 31, 2019)

-----

Note on Sauvage name -

while the French word _sauvage _and the English one _savage_ enjoy a common latin root (_silvaticus) _their respective meanings are somewhat different.

_sauvage _ intends "wild" in the sense of "the wild geese" or having to do with being in a state of nature.  it carries not the English _savage _suggestion of brutish/violent.

readers who enjoyed the wonderful Sauvage Lejeune gallery posted by bulldog1935 above may have noticed that despite the scores of excellent images it contains no good look at he machine's nameplate is presented.  suspect this may have been intentional by poster as the emblem is somewhat "politically incorrect"...




---

reportedly, use of the Sauvage name ended in 1969 with machines produced thereafter badged simply as Lejeune.
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## wrongway (Feb 4, 2019)

bulldog1935 said:


> What you gain with fine casings even in clinchers is, like a high-grade tubular, the carcass spreads the road shock farther through the casing, and less through the frame and fork.
> On cold mornings you can tell the difference between the U of a clincher and the perfect doughnut of a tubular.
> All my friends have come around and are ex-teeth-chatterers, now also riding on clouds.
> The smallest tires I ride are 27mm, and those are the hand-glued with 320 tpi linen-polyester casings.
> ...


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## harpon (Feb 5, 2019)

I just reread this thread and the aforementioned blogs in the post above, which I find are pure B.S.  All the "myths" of Bicycling Quarterly (is it?) are pretty much bed rock cycling principle and knowledge and maybe a "sell gasoline" person or self-ordained theorist has come in the door. The "testing" described in the "rolling tests" are totally undefined,  as to form and parameters- there are NO control tests described or any real data given, and typical of the information highway being turned into the misinformation highway by sheer force of internet wind.  In fact the weight of tires is a big factor and "racer wisdom" has been formed by years and decades of controlled testing- a same rider doing the same kinds of things in the most extreme of conditions.  That's why back in the day we'd take care to have- if we could- 220 gram Clement Setas on our rims if we were going into a fast tight criterium course with a relatively smooth road surface, to get the best roll and the constant best accelerating blast out of every corner.  If it was a road course or longer not so cornered criterium, the usual standard was a 250 gram seta sew up- not as fast but more reliable.  Probably 75 per cent of racers in the days when everyone would line up on full-campy bikes had 250 silks on their rims- maybe in Europe they'd go a little heavier, and with rougher roads.

     Sew ups were NEVER reliable though and I was glad to see light and narrow 700c come along- a format conceived in size to replace sew ups of the day without altering tire size.  I suffered from some back pains in my later years and I tried to accept some of the "blog theory" I think even when I took to sporting even heavier Clement 290 gram setas in open and flatter road races, and then trying to get some roll back by "bombing" them with slightly more pressure.  In fact. the heavier the flimsy silk sew up, the more reliable it indeed was- 250 more than 220 gram and 290 even more so- all still a crapshoot though. I rode 14 seasons on sew-up tires and rims- almost all my training as well, and it was an extreme pleasure when it was finally over to have some 700 clinchers on I could assume would probably not puncture in the first 25 miles like sew-ups sometimes did.  Do NOT knock "racer wisdom" if you haven'
 acquired it skidding some road rash into your butt, when yours, or someone else's sew-up tire blew in the middle of a turn!

 Yet at almost any level I've ever ridden- more narrow and lighter tires ALWAYS roll better- 1 1/8" rolled better than 1 1/4"  27 inch tires and I even went to 27 x 1 3/8 tires on the gas bikes and could tell the difference both pedaling and with the China Girl. and the same now holds true of most 700 tires I've tried (which can have great discrepancies  while still claiming the same widths, yet that's another issue)  No- there's plenty of multi-use needs for using different tires of different widths and weights and profiles- but I've always found that widening things always reduces the roll, given the same tire pressure.



One typical 250 seta blow out and you're discovered beneath the truck.


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## bulldog1935 (Feb 5, 2019)

read it, but maybe didn't understand it, and maybe no experience with quality tires to compare.
There's a whole 'nother world out there. The reason to ride 700c is to get the quality tire options, which have never been available in 27x.

"I tried tubulars once - Vittoria Rallyes" - actually, he didn't - those might as well be solid rubber.  The reason they call these vulcanized sew-up "training tires" is low cost and racking up miles where speed and seconds advantage is not an issue.  All Actual Professional Racers today and yesterday ride Dugast tubulars (hand-glued over linen casings), to the point they buy Dugast tires at the event and paste their sponsor's labels over the Dugast ink.  Wannabe racers confuse fast with hard tire chatter - we've been over that.  The one place small contact patch makes a difference is on a perfectly smooth track, because there are no bumps like with real-life pavement.
(the 27 on the sidewall is mm width - this is a cobblestone tubular).



Also note no professional racers have ever ridden clinchers (or even most amateurs) - clinchers came about for convenience of changing tires, throwing out performance for convenience. The good thing for the rest of us, over the last 10 years, they've formulated good clinchers that give us back Most of the qualities of tubulars, including hand-glued construction using quality materials. I'll add again about Compass, Jan Heine has been through the effort working with Panaracer to develop a casing for a vulcanized tire that's almost as good as hand-glued.

The thing is, they've done the dyno tests to prove actual rolling resistance over seat of pants.  The one place narrow tires improve is less aerodynamic drag. Any time acceleration is involved (climbing by definition is accelerating against gravity) lighter weight is always more efficient, and you feel the difference in rotational energy.

The city/touring tire mentality for flat resistance is also backwards - soft thin tires shed flint and glass shards, while hard thick rubber plants them and eventually works them into the tube. The people who flat on group rides are always on gatorskins.  Actual touring under load, tandems, etc., you do need heavy body tires to support the load.

The best way to get a blow-out is to over-pressure a clincher bead and add the centrifugal loads of going really fast downhill. The other way is too-low pressure, so that you get a pinch flat from the bead moving on sharp bumps (e.g. railroad track).  Another reason Berto chart is a good starting point - make sure you have enough pressure.


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## wrongway (Feb 5, 2019)

Well, Bulldog, I seem to have proved I can't operate new technology.....lol I meant to quote your post and ask if I was understanding it right. You're saying harder pressure tires can actually 'bounce' over bumps and cracks and therefore lose speed?


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## bulldog1935 (Feb 5, 2019)

exactly correct, friend - something else they've addressed in dynamometer testing using rough rolling surfaces on the dyno drums.


wrongway said:


> ...You're saying harder pressure tires can actually 'bounce' over bumps and cracks and therefore lose speed?



And not just low-frequency cracks and bumps - chatter is the tire bouncing over the high frequency finer features in the road texture.
Jan is not the only one who has done this testing - you can find many independent tests, though still aimed at comparing (and selling) quality road clinchers.

On last Sunday morning's crack-of-dawn Alamodome sprint, the very athletic gentleman (pretty sure USAF officer and at least 25 years my junior) on the late Specialized road bike, and whose gatorskin flat we fixed before taking off, followed me through all the downtown lights.  Not intentionally, I scraped him off on the Chavez St. stretch, and was first to our stop.
I was on my '74 International with fenders and front rando bag - 32mm Compass tires, about 73 psi rear, 70 front - and it was wet, which I have no worries on these tires, but did point out a slick turn onto Broadway to the guys right behind me.




you can see I dropped it onto granny for the climb up the wheelchair ramp switchback to our landing - I love my half-steps+granny, and have two bikes set up this way.

ps - fast is only a byproduct of this tire choice - the reason to pick this tire is ride comfortably and stay up on rocks and slick in the real world.


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## fattyre (Feb 5, 2019)

Ahh. Nothing like a good old fashion tire debate....

I’ve always wondered what the tires themselves would say if they could talk.

I take this approach. Who cares?  Air em up and go. Cycling is all calculated risk.  Through the years it seems to me it’s the motor that makes the biggest difference. You can put the nicest tires on a crappy bike and guess what?  It’s still up to your will power, your strength and your fitness.


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## bulldog1935 (Feb 5, 2019)

Falling is always faster than staying upright on a flat surface - independent of tire chatter.  Any time you lean to turn, you get free acceleration, especially on courses that you know.
(add chatter to that turn, and you're way behind)
I love that mash feel of accelerating uphill just after a sweeping turn - when they raced steel bikes, though mostly trial and error, they built steel frames to take advantage of this.
My Carlton-built Raleigh definitely falls in that category (32mm tires barely fit the round chainstays, which are without tire crimps).
If you put good wheels on the crappy bike, you change its nature.

Two approaches to tire debates - seat of pants and math. I'm a licensed professional engineer of 40 years, and apply it to everything I do - fishing tackle, kayaks.
Any time myth is involved in an argument, so is see no evil, hear no evil


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## harpon (Feb 5, 2019)

Professionals raced for years on clinchers before tubular tires.  Thinner is always a better roll at the same pressure.  They usually weigh less too, a consideration accelerating and climbing. You can't "myth" what so many learned for so long doing mile after miles for years and decades.  No one who raced on sew ups would ever want to return to them for casual or touring rides- they puncture much easier.  So on the one hand these arguments seem based on practical need and comfort favoring wider tires- ride them, they have more rolling resistance- yet on the other hand is this annoying obsession with dead and largely less reliable sew up formats.  Let me guess, you find vinyl 33's better sounding than CDs or digital files.  Pop Musak!



I like 23mm tires and find they roll even better than 25mm, but they don't last long.  Both can be replaced each year for less than a decent sew-up cost even back in the '70's. Many sew-ups had cheap cotton casings, and were heavy and crap, and if they had spent any shelf time or survived a year, the rot factor on cotton sew-ups was especially bad, and they had high rates of failure.  Gluing them on and taking glued tires off was a messy tiresome pain- you couldn't just let glue collect repeatedly either, but had to use solvent to remove it from the rims periodically.

We had an ABL of A state rep in Indiana at the time who took pride in rolling the tires of the rims of riders on the starting line,  There'd be groans and cursings from riders as he'd go through the pack before the start, but he did this again and again for several years.  In one of my first junior races, I once had a cheap Wolber cotton sew-up roll off  its' own stitch covering in the middle of a corner- which was still solidly glued to the rims.  The rear tire was still holding air but twisted up and held the rim fast.  They said that sparks were flying off the wheel behind me. It was only fortune that a tall chain link fence was outside the corner I was going through and I stayed upright coming to rest against it. I never used Wolber Sew-ups again and called them Wobblers. A 23mm clincher is similar in profile to a tubular, and the tube can be replaced and while heavier the tire is also usually more reliable than a sew up casing. I think they are a major leap forward from the old days for a lot of casual riders and training.


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## juvela (Feb 20, 2019)

-------

note on NIVEX for our Don Ron -

came across this listing for a Nivex ensemble including instructions, dropouts and hubs:































Owner located in The Levant * -

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=382790179013

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* not Oscar

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