# Please Help Identify This Old Bicycle



## Alfax0 (Sep 2, 2013)

I am not a collector and this is the only old bike I have. I've owned this bike for over 40 years. The man that gave it to me said he had raced it in the 20's. It was black when I received it but there weren't any marks or a insignia badge.
I put the current color the tires on it over 30 years ago. I am not sure of the correct terms but will try to describe it properly.

There are no marks or numbers on the frame except for the very bottom under the pedals where it is stamped "A97". The sprocket and pedal arms are stamped with the letters "EWJ" and a sword, the spindle connecting the pedals is stamped "BSA". 
The wood rims are marked "Lobdell Alma, Mich" and are 25" in diameter. The wheel axles are stamped "English Made".
The knurled ring at the base of the handlebars is faintly stamped "Champion".
The seat is Brooks, the chain is Renold.

Thanks to all for any help in identifying it


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## chitown (Sep 2, 2013)

Very cool bike. The lack of markings may be because it was hand built. It looks similar to early Paramount bikes except for the drop outs (Paramount's were rear facing, and Paramount's had hand filed "keyholes" made in the lugs.

Could have been English built and raced here? BSA was a popular racing bike back in the day.


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## Wcben (Sep 2, 2013)

With the wheels being Lobdells from Alma, if they're original to the bike, that puts it post 1926.... Sorry I can't offer more....Also very cool "Major Taylor stem"!


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## Alfax0 (Sep 3, 2013)

chitown said:


> Very cool bike. The lack of markings may be because it was hand built. It looks similar to early Paramount bikes except for the drop outs (Paramount's were rear facing, and Paramount's had hand filed "keyholes" made in the lugs.
> 
> Could have been English built and raced here? BSA was a popular racing bike back in the day.




Thanks for your response. When you say handbuilt do you mean that the frame was already assembled and he chose the various parts he wanted such as the wheels and sprockets and for his custom needs. The frame has two small holes where an insignia badge was probably mounted.


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## Alfax0 (Sep 3, 2013)

Wcben said:


> With the wheels being Lobdells from Alma, if they're original to the bike, that puts it post 1926.... Sorry I can't offer more....Also very cool "Major Taylor stem"!




Thanks for your response. Any help is appreciated


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Sep 3, 2013)

Looks like a Chater Lea bottom bracket set.


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## sailorbenjamin (Sep 4, 2013)

What's the distance between the two headbadge holes?  Skiptooth chain and Lobdell wheels make me think American.  So does the 7 seatpost.  Really sweet bike.  Try posting at the C+V forum.  They love this kind of stuff;
http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php/181-Classic-amp-Vintage


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## Alfax0 (Sep 5, 2013)

sailorbenjamin said:


> What's the distance between the two headbadge holes?  Skiptooth chain and Lobdell wheels make me think American.  So does the 7 seatpost.  Really sweet bike.  Try posting at the C+V forum.  They love this kind of stuff;
> http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php/181-Classic-amp-Vintage




The distance center to center is exactly 35mm, close to 1-3/8".
Will try the C&V forum. Thanks for your help


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## Alfax0 (Sep 5, 2013)

GiovanniLiCalsi said:


> Looks like a Chater Lea bottom bracket set.




Thanks for your help


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## sam (Sep 5, 2013)

This is so cool--I don't believe it---I just got this same bike off Ebay! Delivered yesterday.I've never seen these rear drop outs before. Here's a pic of the rear drops I got---


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## sam (Sep 5, 2013)

Also your bike has Williams sprocket(chainring) so we can date your bike by it. Can you show a photo of the "sword" It will have a number or letter with it that dated your bike.


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## sam (Sep 5, 2013)

Alfax0 said:


> The distance center to center is exactly 35mm, close to 1-3/8".
> Will try the C&V forum. Thanks for your help




I also measured the hole with on the frame I have---exactly 35mm.
The holes on my frame are not lined up exactly across for each other. one is just a bit higher than the other.And there is a faint outline of the badge.
The fact that both these frames were badged leads me to believe they were "factory" bikes--they may be Mead import models but that's only a guess at present.


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## Alfax0 (Sep 5, 2013)

sam said:


> Also your bike has Williams sprocket(chainring) so we can date your bike by it. Can you show a photo of the "sword" It will have a number or letter with it that dated your bike.




Hi Sam, thanks for your help. Attached is a photo of the sword on the chainring and a photo of the spindle connecting the cranks


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## Alfax0 (Sep 5, 2013)

Alfax0 said:


> Hi Sam, thanks for your help. Attached is a photo of the sword on the chainring and a photo of the spindle connecting the cranksView attachment 112390View attachment 112391




I meant to add that it looks like a "B" or an "8", Thanks again


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## Alfax0 (Sep 5, 2013)

Alfax0 said:


> I meant to add that it looks like a "B" or an "8", Thanks again




I cleaned the ring at the top of the stem a bit, I thought it said "Champion" but appears to read "B Hampton". Thanks again for everyones help.


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## sam (Sep 5, 2013)

Alfax0 said:


> Hi Sam, thanks for your help. Attached is a photo of the sword on the chainring and a photo of the spindle connecting the cranksView attachment 112390View attachment 112391




WOW! your bike is Dated 1924.
The "J" under the sword is the code for 1924 Williams chainring.
Your bike is also set up for racing--the Williams(british) skiptooth ring and block(not roller) chain, major taylor stem, and not driller for mudguards(fenders)--so it does look like the "old guy" you got it from did race in the 1920s.
PS it's easy a $1000 bike--we do need to do research on it.Was the old guy a local in your area? Do you remember his name? His family?


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## Alfax0 (Sep 5, 2013)

sam said:


> WOW! your bike is Dated 1924.
> The "J" under the sword is the code for 1924 Williams chainring.
> Your bike is also set up for racing--the Williams(british) skiptooth ring and block(not roller) chain, major taylor stem, and not driller for mudguards(fenders)--so it does look like the "old guy" you got it from did race in the 1920s.
> PS it's easy a $1000 bike--we do need to do research on it.Was the old guy a local in your area? Do you remember his name? His family?




I'm on the New Jersey shore. It was around 1970 and I was nineteen and working as a helper on a construction site building an adult community in Toms River, NJ. The man that gave it to me had just moved into his new house and I helped him get some things done. He had the bike in his garage along with a large, old B&W framed photo of himself in his racing outfit posing with the bike, his trophies and medals he had won. I knew him as *Mr. Hand*. He went on to explain track racing, why the lack of freewheel coasting and of brakes and how he would lean forward and lock his legs to brake. It had the old tires that were falling apart and Mr. Hand said I should replace them and to use orange shellac to bond new tires to the rims. He looked like he was small and wirey like an athlete in the picture. After I thanked him I went to show it to my brother and he promptly tried to trade it from me for his transistor radio. Obviously I kept it and I'm glad I did (his three kids would have demolished it). Anyhow, I'd like to think that Mr. Hand gave it to the right person.
Thanks for all the responses


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## chitown (Sep 5, 2013)

Alfax0 said:


> I cleaned the ring at the top of the stem a bit, I thought it said "Champion" but appears to read "B Hampton". Thanks again for everyones help.
> View attachment 112392





That would be Brampton!

http://www.velobase.com/ListComponents.aspx?SearchID=534dc923-2410-4ca9-a54f-2621dd1885c8


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## Alfax0 (Sep 7, 2013)

chitown said:


> That would be Brampton!
> 
> http://www.velobase.com/ListComponents.aspx?SearchID=534dc923-2410-4ca9-a54f-2621dd1885c8




My headset is identical to the one you have shown except mine is stamped Bramton only on the ring. Thanks for your help


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## sam (Sep 7, 2013)

I'm leaning toward these being a BSA , but haven't found a reference showing a BSA with the adjuster rear drop outs
I have found a pic of this type drop out listed as Chator Lea
BSA fittings were preferred by racers of this era--and BSA/Brampton/and Williams were all made in B-Ham England.


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## Alfax0 (Sep 7, 2013)

sam said:


> I'm leaning toward these being a BSA , but haven't found a reference showing a BSA with the adjuster rear drop outs
> I have found a pic of this type drop out listed as Chator Lea
> BSA fittings were preferred by racers of this era--and BSA/Brampton/and Williams were all made in B-Ham England.




Chitown posted photos of a bottom bracket made by Brampton. On my bike it's marked BSA and has loose 1/4" bearings. The outer two piece part is almost identical to the photo Chitown posted but has no marks


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## Wcben (Sep 7, 2013)

So....if the frame dates to '24 then either the bike took a little while to build (maybe parts being specially ordered) or, the wheels are replacements as Lobdell didn't move to Alma until after the fire at the first plant in 1926...


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## sam (Sep 8, 2013)

Wcben said:


> So....if the frame dates to '24 then either the bike took a little while to build (maybe parts being specially ordered) or, the wheels are replacements as Lobdell didn't move to Alma until after the fire at the first plant in 1926...




I'm calling it a 1924 based on the 1924 chainring on it ,but....as this bike was raced I'm sure lots of parts were changed. If it originally came with steel rims wood rims were preferred by racers as they were a lot lighter. And the chainring might have been a replacement too--as racers also liked the skiptooth block chain. Looking at Collins web museum site I'm sure the frame was built with BSA lugs too. And the Alma rims date to 26+---someone must have photos info on this style drops --just gotta dig!


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## Alfax0 (Sep 8, 2013)

sam said:


> I'm calling it a 1924 based on the 1924 chainring on it ,but....as this bike was raced I'm sure lots of parts were changed. If it originally came with steel rims wood rims were preferred by racers as they were a lot lighter. And the chainring might have been a replacement too--as racers also liked the skiptooth block chain. Looking at Collins web museum site I'm sure the frame was built with BSA lugs too. And the Alma rims date to 26+---someone must have photos info on this style drops --just gotta dig!




As so many parts are English like Brampton and Williams and the crank spindle is BSA and also is there a chance the frame could be BSA. 
Thanks to everyone for your input.


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## Alfax0 (Sep 12, 2013)

*I Found Markings I Have Not Seen Before*



Alfax0 said:


> As so many parts are English like Brampton and Williams and the crank spindle is BSA and also is there a chance the frame could be BSA.
> Thanks to everyone for your input.




I just noticed a number faintly stamped on the dropouts. It reads Reg. No. 670117. 
I don't know it this has any significance but it may help others help me ID the frame.
This and the very underside of the bottom bracket which is stamped A97 are the only numbers I've found. 
I also found, even though it has no bearing on the frame, that the pedals are stamped Phillips, Made in England.
Thanks to all for your help


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