# Planes And trains?



## dxmadman (Sep 6, 2011)

Attention Schwinn Gurus. What year did schwinn start using the plane and train headbadge? And the last years? Was there any certain model they represent? Thanks!


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## ozzmonaut (Sep 6, 2011)

I just logged in to ask this EXACT same question. I can't believe this just got asked. It may be hard to pin down an exact year, but if so, maybe we can combine knowledge from having bikes with this badge to narrow it down. So far, the earliest bike I have owned one on is a 48, and I am sure it's original. I believe I have seen one on a 46 as well. I am hoping they were used on prewar models as well.


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## ozzmonaut (Sep 6, 2011)

Also, I have seen them on several DX frames as well as straightbar and cantilever, so I doubt that they represented certain models.


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## dxmadman (Sep 7, 2011)

The reason im asking its a bit of a mystery because a elderly friend of mine collects antique toy trains,he has a 40 schwinn of mine he displays with his stuff, he was the one that asked me because , as a kidd had a plane and train badged bike he remembers it was christmas of 1938 one collector said it was possible for the first of that badge,Now the mystery is the design of the plain and train is very modern for that time,My friend is into trains and said those style of trains wasnt developed yet until postwar era also the jet plane was very futuristic for prewar times. How did Schwinn get the idea? Did Grandpa Ingaz know something we didnt?


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## Talewinds (Sep 7, 2011)

That's an interesting mystery. Some of it may come down to perception. When I look at the vehicles on the P&T badge I see a prop-driven airplane similar to a Lockhead Altair or a Seversky, both planes from the mid 30's.
 The automobile driving next to the train is identical to the open wheel race cars of the 30's that dominated domestic races like the Indy 500. The Maserati, Alfa, Miller, etc, etc. 
 Lastly, there were several trains in use in the 1930's that could have inspired the P&T badge design. The General Pershing Zephyr was one of nine streamliner trains in use by the CBQ railroad in the late 30's.

I would agree that NONE of these vehicles was considered commonplace in the 30's, but they each represent the cutting edge of the time. If I were to design a headbadge in the 1930's, an era of unstoppable engineering progress, I'd design one that was inspired by the "high tech" of the moment.


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## dxmadman (Sep 7, 2011)

*Thanks for the responce.*



Talewinds said:


> That's an interesting mystery. Some of it may come down to perception. When I look at the vehicles on the P&T badge I see a prop-driven airplane similar to a Lockhead Altair or a Seversky, both planes from the mid 30's.
> The automobile driving next to the train is identical to the open wheel race cars of the 30's that dominated domestic races like the Indy 500. The Maserati, Alfa, Miller, etc, etc.
> Lastly, there were several trains in use in the 1930's that could have inspired the P&T badge design. The General Pershing Zephyr was one of nine streamliner trains in use by the CBQ railroad in the late 30's.
> 
> I would agree that NONE of these vehicles was considered commonplace in the 30's, but they each represent the cutting edge of the time. If I were to design a headbadge in the 1930's, an era of unstoppable engineering progress, I'd design one that was inspired by the "high tech" of the moment.




I am going to look into Zepyr trains and CBQ. I wasnt aware of those models of trains and planes and  inform my friend of the history. He is still stuck in the BIGBOY era of trains. Now im wondering if Ingaz was stuck in American or European styling or may be both?


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## island schwinn (Sep 7, 2011)

i had a 35 double diamond framed schwinn with the planes and trains badge.as far as i know,it was all original.


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## Talewinds (Sep 7, 2011)

Here's a photo of the 1939 Silver Charger at the St. Louis Museum of Transportation. It's the last sibling of the aforementioned General Pershing. Looking at this train, then the P&T badge, there's little doubt where the inspiration came from.

http://0.tqn.com/d/stlouis/1/0/I/6/-/-/IMG_2335.JPG


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## dxmadman (Sep 7, 2011)

*The Puzzle Fits!*

I just did some research during my lunch and found out Streamline trains Started in Germany in the early 30's, You had the 1931 Schienenzepplin,1934 Burlington Zepher "like the badge has", And the B&O 462. All futuristicly streamlined. I thought streamliners was part of the Art Deco pre and post war period. Those trains are so freakin cool! Island Schwinn says they got a 1935 with that badge and the Zepher came out in 1934 so the puzzle fits, As far as the last years my boy has his 1952 20 inch hornet with that badge,as well as my 47 autocycle and a 50 panther. GOLDEN!!!!!


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## Talewinds (Sep 7, 2011)

dxmadman said:


> I just did some research during my lunch and found out Streamline trains Started in Germany in the early 30's, You had the 1931 Schienenzepplin,1934 Burlington Zepher "like the badge has", And the B&O 462. All futuristicly streamlined. I thought streamliners was part of the Art Deco pre and post war period. Those trains are so freakin cool! Island Schwinn says they got a 1935 with that badge and the Zepher came out in 1934 so the puzzle fits, As far as the last years my boy has his 1952 20 inch hornet with that badge,as well as my 47 autocycle and a 50 panther. GOLDEN!!!!!




Yep, that Burlington Zephyr is, again, older brother to the General Pershing and Silver Charger from the same company, CBQ. 
 In regards to the concept of "streamlining" and Art Deco, I always thought those concepts and styles were strictly prewar, 1920's through early 40's. Post war was an entirely new era of design? I could be completely wrong, someone feel free to chime in.


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## WEAKFISH (Sep 7, 2011)

I saw an ad on Craigslist for a prewar Schwinn. It was prewar with the rear facing dropouts. The person placing the ad thought it was a 1936. Anyway...the bike had a planes and trains headbadge. Pretty sure it was a cycle plane.


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## dxmadman (Sep 7, 2011)

*Art Deco, In concept.*



Talewinds said:


> Yep, that Burlington Zephyr is, again, older brother to the General Pershing and Silver Charger from the same company, CBQ.
> In regards to the concept of "streamlining" and Art Deco, I always thought those concepts and styles were strictly prewar, 1920's through early 40's. Post war was an entirely new era of design? I could be completely wrong, someone feel free to chime in.




Art deco has a time frame to what i understand to be mid 30,s through the early fifties, for me thats dealing from a car concept, artisticaly is said to start in the twenties,The way i was taught Art Deco was another word for Modernism, given away to more eye apeal than functionality.Big ,bold, lavished,"streamlined" fit in that cult. Car wise rounder fatter cars was introduced mid thirties, as well as bicycles The Areo Cycle,Color flows, Bowdens,Balloon bikes in general.Then again Art deco took on a whole new meaning in the fifties to long and thin ,tall and massive yet functional ,Caddillacs, Olds,Middle wieght bicycles. Thats how i understand Art Deco in my concept, In context it changes with every person.


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## Larmo63 (Sep 7, 2011)

*Ask Leon Dixon...*

Go to the NBHAAAAAYYYYY, "They" know!!!!!


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## bobcycles (Sep 7, 2011)

*Trains and Planes*

Badge was definately out in 1938.  I think I may have even seen it on 37 bikes as well.  Some much for the "streamlined trains" weren't invented til after the war theory.  BZZZZZZZZT!  Wrong!


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## ozzmonaut (Sep 9, 2011)

I have a 36 motorbike with that badge, but due to my preconceptions, I just assumed it was wrong. But the patina seems to match. However this thing has had two repaints since original, with no paint on the badge. The repaints weren't so great, and I doubt that the "artists" would have taken the care to remove the badge. But then again I don't see any paint on the cranks, braces, etc. None on the cups either. So they at least had some idea of what to do.


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