# What is it ?



## randallace (Dec 15, 2014)

I believe it's a prewar roadmaster but unsure - help ?? Can't find serial number under all this john deer green rustolium paint , LOL


----------



## jkent (Dec 15, 2014)

Hawthorne and I need that springer fork.
Whats the plans?
JKent


----------



## randallace (Dec 15, 2014)

Age?

Doesn't show well in photos , but was defiantly a roadmaster shaped badge on it


----------



## randallace (Dec 15, 2014)

Did she originally have a tank ? 
Allstate tires ( what's left of them ) 

Was a craigslist grab


----------



## randallace (Dec 15, 2014)

So not a Cleveland welding ? Not a roadmaster  ?


----------



## fordmike65 (Dec 15, 2014)

Looks a lot like a Roadmaster we picked up a while back





Edit:After looking closer, not that similar. This one is a bit later (postwar).


----------



## randallace (Dec 15, 2014)

Yes looks similar to me as we'll but from some reading I've been doing it appears my front fork and fender supports look older - but the crank on your appears the same - yours skip tooth ?  
Have a date on yours ? My dropouts face the rear - do yours ?

Is the " dog leg " crank anything special ? Or just a design variant ?


----------



## randallace (Dec 15, 2014)

This picture better illustrates the original badge shape


----------



## jkent (Dec 15, 2014)

I would say it's a 1939-1941 H P Snyder built Wards Hawthorne
JKent


----------



## randallace (Dec 15, 2014)

Any idea where they made these ?


----------



## randallace (Dec 15, 2014)

What badge would she  have worn ??  Any help on pictures of what if should look like ?


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)

jkent said:


> Hawthorne and I need that springer fork.
> Whats the plans?
> JKent



I am unsure as to intentions at this point - trying to find as much information as I can - then I will make a decision as to its future


----------



## tripple3 (Dec 16, 2014)

randallace said:


> What badge would she  have worn ??  Any help on pictures of what if should look like ?




I think its CWC built and a Roadmaster "Shield" shaped badge would look fine on her...probably what was there too.
I don't have a pic but they are common and I think I may have 1 somewhere....


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks for the info! If ya find a badge let me know please 

I have the serial number - was quite an order to find - 

It reads K64981. Then 16 sideways


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)

I think that lighter green was most likely it's original color - hub is a morrow


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)




----------



## scrubbinrims (Dec 16, 2014)

40-41 CWC built with that springer and light extension.
I have a roadmaster shield badge for sale.
Chris


----------



## tripple3 (Dec 16, 2014)

randallace said:


>




Morrow put date stamps on the hub...it will have a letter and number for year and quarter mfg. wheels are often changed but can be another clue....


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)

And where would a strapping young man like myself find such a number please ? 

Pm me on that badge


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)

Did this originally have the rear stand ? I assume that's what the extra notches by the drop outs  are for ?


----------



## fordmike65 (Dec 16, 2014)

The rear dropouts have dropstand ears, so it is quite possible.


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)

Wonder where I'd locate that , if I decide to go the restore route


----------



## fordmike65 (Dec 16, 2014)

They show up here,ebay etc. I have a couple extra myself. You also need the attaching shouldered bolts & nuts. If you can't find originals, I believe John is still making them. Does the rear fender have holes to accommodate a dropstand clip?


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)

Will shoot ya a photo


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)

Any help on serial number ?  Anyone know what color options were available ? Is that light green a factory color ? 

The grips say western flyer - think they were added later ? They look like a later style  to me


----------



## GTs58 (Dec 16, 2014)

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?42349-1940-1942-CWC-Packard


----------



## randallace (Dec 16, 2014)

Crank looks the same -  was this a common crank on CWC  bikes ?  - the headbadge pattern on my head tube doesn't match the bike in your link - but most other items look the same - was there any mounting tabs for a tank that I should look for ?


----------



## randallace (Dec 17, 2014)

After careful consideration I do believe this bicycle is going to be saved - I'm not up on "prewar etiquette"  so I'm not sure how to proceed with 'da Savin'  LOL - the green rustoleum paints gotta come off , but not sure how to tackle that - I had a heck of a time getting it off the crank to get to the serial number - obviously the tires are junk and Need to go - and the handlebars have no finish left whatsoever - the grips I am unsure of - are they vintage ?  Don't know -  spokes are rather rusty , but all in tact - best to replace them ??


----------



## tripple3 (Dec 17, 2014)

Ok How to "Eat a Elephant"...1 bite at a time....Start with what you know. Figure out what you want it to look like when you're done; tear into it; have fun. You can look for a badge while you work on paint-prep. Keep us posted. You can post a wanted to buy list for the parts you know you want.
Show progress pics please. Enjoy it!


----------



## pedal_junky (Dec 17, 2014)

Experiment with paint removal. I've used heavy duty oven cleaner with good results removing  rattle can paint. Goof Off or paint stripper are other options. Try it on a small area first to test the results. If the spokes are all there and the wheels are fairly true, don't spend money on new spokes if you are just making a rider. Unless you can do all the prep/paint/ restoration work yourself, I wouldn't put a lot of money into it. Start a thread and have fun with it.


----------



## randallace (Dec 17, 2014)

Money is tight around here , but if I'm gonna do it , I want to do it right . I'd like to take it back to the way it looked when new - just gotta figure out what that look was and what all I am missing


----------



## scrubbinrims (Dec 17, 2014)

I do not see any hope in removing the paint and getting it back anywhere near original.
My advice is decide whether of not you are going for an accurate restoration with color, darts/chevrons, and pinstriping OR taking artistic liberties and make it your bike depending on how much time and ability you have.
As I previously mentioned, I have a head badge for your bike with its screws and a number of other things to make this bike correct, and I know of a tank I can acquire as well, which yours had being a deluxe model (rack, springer fork).
In my experience, new folks to the hobby don't understand values and the difficulty (or not) of acquiring replacement parts and pass on stuff I have offered.
They often make poor decision in cutting their teeth in the hobby and many of us have been there, done that years ago so listen up.
Chris


----------



## randallace (Dec 17, 2014)

scrubbinrims said:


> I do not see any hope in removing the paint and getting it back anywhere near original.
> My advice is decide whether of not you are going for an accurate restoration with color, darts/chevrons, and pinstriping OR taking artistic liberties and make it your bike depending on how much time and ability you have.
> As I previously mentioned, I have a head badge for your bike with its screws and a number of other things to make this bike correct, and I know of a tank I can acquire as well, which yours had being a deluxe model (rack, springer fork).
> In my experience, new folks to the hobby don't understand values and the difficulty (or not) of acquiring replacement parts and pass on stuff I have offered.
> ...




im listening - trust me - i will pm you about the parts


----------



## randallace (Dec 17, 2014)

Pm sent


----------



## scrubbinrims (Dec 18, 2014)

35 shipped.
Chris


----------



## randallace (Dec 19, 2014)

Pm Sent


----------



## randallace (Dec 21, 2014)

What I found under the green paint - 2 strips with citrus strip





After 2 strips - 






After 4strips


----------



## randallace (Dec 23, 2014)

Do you think the lighter green ANd white are the original colors ? The red looks like a primer - and the green is above that - but it's on truss rods and springs too ....?
Any help on how the springer disassembles ?
What seat would have been on her originally ?

I am considering having it blasted and total repaint with base coat clear coat - but wanted to dig in and find original colors first to point me in the right direction - I'd like rechrome some parts but need to look into what that costs


----------



## randallace (Dec 27, 2014)

I did some archeology on the morrow rear hub - felt like Indiana jones digging thru all that grease, paint, and rust - hub says 

Eclipse machine xxxxxxxx 
Made in Elmira ny USA
m3.             36   13

Any help I'd the year ?


- I have the bike stripped down completely now to be sand blasted - it only took me 7 hours ,LOL , it fought me all the way , every bolt was a challenge - heat, penetrating oil, pipe for leverage , ect ect ect .......this bike was obviously some ones yard art , thru the years , I've found at least 6 layers of oil based paints - all  bearings and cups were dry as a bone - crank bearings were shot - crank is too bad off to strip and polish - gonna have it blasted and then plated if I can afford it - the rear tire was a Allstate - front was a Goodyear - both ties disintegrated while trying to remove them from the rims , literally falling apart into chunks - which was original ? Anyone know ?  This is how she looks now


----------



## tripple3 (Dec 28, 2014)

You are doing great; don't give up or get in a hurry. It looks harder to do in a basket; but you have done the hardest part.
Girl's seats show up here and are a little smaller than boys seats and usually less money too.
I think M3 is 3rd quarter 1945ish? someone here will know for sure.
Tires are best to ride new; old tires look good on a original bike.... US Royal Chain White or blackwall tires can be purchased here through John.
depends on rim finish to me. Really just personal preference as either was available.
I hope you are still having fun. I love it.


----------



## Freqman1 (Dec 28, 2014)

I believe "M3" is 3rd quarter '43 but serial on bike is late '41. I would have expected the hub to be "K3". At any rate I'll throw my 2c in here. First you need to realize that whether you decide to refurbish or restore you will have way more in this that it will ever be worth. To 'restore' means to bring back to original. They did not use bc/cc paint during this period so you would want to go with single stage enamels in the correct paint pattern with the proper colored pins. The chrome on this alone will be more than the bike is worth. I restored a similar bike for my girlfriend this past year (post war) and the chrome bill was a shade over $1400. It was her birthday present so money wasn't a consideration otherwise I would not have restored the bike. You can figure over $2k by the time you get done to restore the bike. A decent refurbish can be less than half that depending on how much you can do yourself and the direction you want to go. Just remember you ain't gett'n none of that money back though! V/r Shawn


----------



## spoker (Dec 28, 2014)

cant wait any longer,i feel there are way to many ppl being told not to restore bikes to a high degree because of cost,thats a pro resto guys attitude,there are bikes that are high end restos that are never sold or sold for less than are what is invested in them,if ya want to be in somthing with a return on investment dont make it a hobby in collectables,i think we lose the flavor of what this site is all about when we keep telling ppl not to do there bikes to a high level,ppl are aware nowdayes what stuff costs,its a hobby and thats what most ppl use discrecionary income for,not money that was for the house payment,as far as real value goes how much collateral would a bank give you for a high end aerocycle?snowmobilers spend 15 grand on a sled and its worth 7 grand a year later,but its there HOBBY


----------



## Freqman1 (Dec 28, 2014)

Which is pretty much just what I said. Shawn


----------



## spoker (Dec 28, 2014)

not at all this person asked what kind of bike he had,that ?was answerd but i dont see where he asked what it would be worth after a resto,in reality a personal bike that someone restores has as much visual and acomplish ment pleasure as any of the so called high end more desirable bikes


----------



## Freqman1 (Dec 28, 2014)

I couldn't agree more. This is a person new to the hobby trying to find out what he has and the best way to go about preserving it. He indicated he is on a limited budget (we all are!) and was wanting to find out about chrome costs and such. I think its important he knows up front about what to expect and I offered my opinion. I have over $2k in the bike I posted above and know I will never get my money back out of it-- but I never intended to. This is a hobby to me as well and I get great satisfaction out of bringing something crusty back to life.  I believe you missed the intent of my post and we are saying the exact same thing. V/r Shawn


----------



## scrubbinrims (Dec 28, 2014)

Remove the headset and crank cups, tapping out from the inside.
Drill out the fender braces.
Remove the springs, hardware, and truss rods from the fork.
Take these things and the cranks and remove the paint/grease/grime and brush off with a soft bristle wire wheel.  You might not have to rechrome so don't blast these things.
This is what I would do next, as to the the metal bits to be repainted...you have a lot of options, just decide if being correct matters or not.
Chris


----------



## randallace (Dec 28, 2014)

I think on this bicycle  ,  I'm kinda going with the close enuff is good enuff  angle - I've never taken one all the way down before  ,up to this point - I've mainly done cleanup and repolish , that kinda thing - thus will be a first for taking one all way down and having a blank slate - ya know ?  The guy who did the first layer of paint back in the day, sanded down all the chrome and used some kind of etchings primer so none of the chrome is going to be able to be saved - As for my final product here , I want a nice bicycle that looks nice and at least the right color combination , rides well, and is mechanically sound .  I don't need perfect , it's never gonna be in a museum , but I'd keep to go with that vintage look at least . And yes , Money is tight around here , but I also dont really care about how much goes into it - I know I'm never going to get that $$$ back , but this bicycle is wayyyyy cool , and a piece of history as I see it ,  so I simply cannot leave it in that state of disrepair -it was headed to the scrap pile !!!! Seriously dude was gonna scrap her if she didn't sell quickly -  I had to help the ole' girl out -  now as far as what I end up with ?  I'm not sure , but in my eyes it's far better off with me than in some scrap metal pile , being recycled into who knows what ?  In my opinion that is how history is lost . 
Gentlemen I know I'm new at this - and I'm not anywhere near most folks level of skill , or wealth. I'm just a working stiff , who wants to help out a cool old bicycle. 
I greatly admire the work you guys put into complete restorations  - I simply don't have that kinda time or money - heck , I'm using my vacation time to do this project- but at the end of the day I want to improve the quality of life for this old girl a little bit - it ain't gonna be showroom new , but it's gotta be better than it was 

Sincerely yours 

Randall "ace"

P.s. - I know this will most likely offend the "purist " restoration guys - and I have dealt with this before when I rat rodded and old ford truck - to those guys , sorry In advance , L oL


----------



## randallace (Dec 28, 2014)

After more cleaning , and Upon closer inspection,  the hub does say k3  ---- so 1941

- I talked to a guy who works at a local " discount" body shop - he said they use enamel paints and bake the finish in some kind of oven - and could do the bike for 100 as long  as I delivered it ready to shoot - he offered to powdercoat it , but I'm kinda going to  shy away from that


----------



## randallace (Dec 28, 2014)

I removed the crank cups - but the headset ones will not budge - I actually broke my park headset cup removal tool trying to get them out - so I taped them if -


----------



## Freqman1 (Dec 28, 2014)

A little elbow grease and some fresh paint will do wonders. You can actually polish all of the chrome parts and they will look damned near like chrome--this requires a good wheel and time! There are actually a couple of different tanks for this bike that I know of. One with horn and one with out. The tanks are not usually too expensive but many times will be missing the guts--switch/button/horn/battery tray as they are correct for many other prewar bikes. V/r Shawn









Here is a crusty boys version--"K" serial (1941) that I will deliver to the new owner at MLC this coming spring.


----------



## randallace (Dec 28, 2014)

I don't have a tank yet - or a chain guard - Or the correct rear stand ( frame has ears for it ) - the stem was damaged during my attempt to remove if , so will be looking for a replacement - thanks for your input guys - it is truly appreciated


----------



## spoker (Dec 28, 2014)

Freqman1 said:


> I couldn't agree more. This is a person new to the hobby trying to find out what he has and the best way to go about preserving it. He indicated he is on a limited budget (we all are!) and was wanting to find out about chrome costs and such. I think its important he knows up front about what to expect and I offered my opinion. I have over $2k in the bike I posted above and know I will never get my money back out of it-- but I never intended to. This is a hobby to me as well and I get great satisfaction out of bringing something crusty back to life.  I believe you missed the intent of my post and we are saying the exact same thing. V/r Shawn




i very well could have missed your point,somtimes my frustration clouds my thinking,i would just like to see more emasis on making bikes the way they were going to be made b4 the bean couters got in the way,imho show restored bikes are a thing of beauty,hardly anyone was dissatisfied with a show quality bike,years ago i overdid a fastback,money could not replace the fun i had wit that bike and the enjoyment ppl got from seeing it,please dont take offense to my post cause it was NOT directed at you specifically,you have added volumes to this hoppy and website,thanks AJ


----------



## Freqman1 (Dec 28, 2014)

We're cool AJ! I'm just glad to see another vintage bike saved. V/r Shawn


----------



## spoker (Dec 28, 2014)

times2


----------



## randallace (Dec 30, 2014)

How it looks right now


----------

