# 1968? Schwinn Paramount ID help



## unregistered

Just got this from the local bike shop, it was a locally sold and owned bike. Question is, what is it? I’m thinking it may be a P11 Tourist model but uncertain. Any help would be appreciated! 

SN is a 1968, right?


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## Eric Amlie

Yes, looks like the 11th frame from October of '68.
AFAIK, there is no difference in the frame set between the P11 & P12, so the only way to distinguish between them is the component package the bike is equipped with(handlebar, stem, brake levers, pedals, saddle etc.).
Attached is the page from the '68 consumer catalog. Not much info here. Unfortunately I don't have the '68 dealer catalog. That would be much more helpful.
Nice find!


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## unregistered

Thank you for weighing in, @Eric Amlie! I recall your lightweight experience dating way back to the original Schwinn forums! 

Do you know, was 1969 the last year for the Tourist? I agree that it's going to come down to the parts - am thinking this is a P11 due to the crankset.


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## Eric Amlie

I'm not finding either the P11 or the P12 listed in the '69 catalog, so '68 was probably the last year for these models.
Obviously a lot of parts were changed on your bike, so I think it's going to be impossible to know(without a provenance report from Waterford) whether your's started life as a Tourist model or a Sports model. Both the P11 and the P12 used that crankset.


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## Vicious Cycle

Eric Amlie said:


> I'm not finding either the P11 or the P12 listed in the '69 catalog, so '68 was probably the last year for these models.
> Obviously a lot of parts were changed on your bike, so I think it's going to be impossible to know(without a provenance report from Waterford) whether your's started life as a Tourist model or a Sports model. Both the P11 and the P12 used that crankset.




My educated guess is P12. The original stem would be a Titan and would have steel bars if it was a factory Tourist. Everything else looks correct for a '68


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## juvela

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Thanks very much for posting & sharing this example!  

Evidence of having been reworked -

front brake hanger later than cycle, this pattern did not exist at time of cycle's manufacture, it came along about one decade later

note the absence of QR for the rear brake

chainset is in shadow in all images

cannot tell if it is Stronglight Competition or NERVAR
ah,  did an enlargement and can see that chainset is Stronglight Competition model  Nr. 53


			Stronglight catalog # 22 (1974)
		


bottom bracket assembly appears Stronglight Competition Nr. 34  with hollow spindle


			Stronglight catalog # 22 (1974)
		


is this the correct model Brooks saddle for the Tourist of this time?  Brooks B-17?

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## Eric Amlie

Agree. I shouldn't have said "a lot" of parts. More like a "few" parts.
If you put the correct stem, handlebar, and brake levers on, you have a correct P12.
I would guess that if it was a P11, it would still have the bow pedals on it, not the Lyotard 460d pedals that it has now, and which are correct for the P12.
Edit: I missed the front brake cable hanger which juvela pointed out.


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## unregistered

Thanks for your help, guys! 

The shop owner installed those pedals last night, I do not recall what was on there before. 

Well, sounds like a bike I could pretty much do whatever with. My plan is to not deviate from stock much, clean and service it and run some flat bars. It's slightly too big for me so I think that will be the most comfortable option.


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## unregistered

Sorry all, one more... 

Are these Nervex or Prugnat lugs? Being a ‘68 seems to put it smack dab in the middle of where both were used...


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## Eric Amlie

Those are Prugnat.


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## unregistered

Sweet! I’ve always wanted one with those, even if they are less ornate.


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## unregistered

@juvela Thanks for weighing in! Great points! 

The saddle is a B17 and the crankset is a Stronglight. Sorry for the crummy photos from my dark basement shop!


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## juvela

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Lug pattern is Prugnat 62/s.  Schwinn also built Paramounts with Prugnat lug pattern 62/d.

You will be able to gain a date confirmation from the inner face of the cycle's Campag hub axle locknuts.

If spokes Union (Union Frondenberg - Berg) this is confirmatory of a Schwinn wheel build.

You might wish to check to verify that the Lyotard 460D's fitted by dealer are 9/16" thread and not 14mm.  May not be necessary to measure.  If inner ends of spindles are marked D and G they are 14mm.  If marked R and L they be 9/16".  (Some 460D's have unmarked spindles.)  Pedals fitted by dealer are the submodel intended to be compatible with alloy chainsets.  Note the protrusion of the spindle end on the inner face of the crankarm.  There was also a version of the 460D with shorter threaded section spindle intended for fitment to steel crankarms.

Brake calipers not shown especially well in any of the images provided.  From what can be seen suspect they are the not oft encountered luxury finish.  There was a period on the 1960's when Weinmann offered a luxury finish for the 610/750 centrepull brake calipers.  In this variant the arms are not stamped nor labeled with the Weinmann name and model number.  Rather it is screen printed in dark red and the finish is anodised after polishing.  Count yourself fortunate to have received these.

Please post again when you have things sorted to your satisfaction.


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## unregistered

Shameless plug, would like to source a matching Weinmann dimpled rim to match the front. 27 x 1 1/4 36 hole. Thanks for any help!


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## unregistered

Interesting story on the brakes, @juvela. 
Here are some better photos, do you believe them to be original?


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## juvela

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Brakes -

thank you for the additional pictures

brakes original & correct

my error!  

they are the normal ones for the date

that's me fault for attempting to extrapolate too far from inadequate visual information

here is the luxury finish -





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						VeloBase.com - Component: Weinmann AG Vainqueur 999 De Luxe (1st version, 1 spring, pivot bolts, silver)
					





					velobase.com
				




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Titan -

in case you would like to return cycle to its original Titan stem/bar set there are two pieces of information you should have:

a)  Titan stems and bars have a unique to them 27.0mm size for the stem clamp and bar centre

b)  depending on the date the writing on the sleeve of the bar may be done to be read from the rider's side or from the front of the cycle.  you will need to check which is correct for the 1968 date.  i do not recall the date the change was made,  forum member @non-fixie is an expert on Titan products.  have sent him a message so he will be along shortly to assist you.

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Weinmann rim sought -

it is model number 256 -





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						Weinmann catalog (10-1981)
					





					velo-pages.com
				




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## non-fixie

The orientation of the script on the sleeve was changed around 1970, I believe. For 1968 this would be correct (1968 RIH, pictured as found, please disregard the ugly bar tape


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## Eric Amlie

juvela said:


> -----
> Weinmann rim sought -
> 
> it is model number 256 -




Wouldn't the 210 Sport with the dimpled spoke holes be the correct rim?


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## unregistered

Some progress. Tear down has been going smoothly with no surprises. 

The pedal spindle does stick out a little from the crankset, yes. 

I found no stamping on the bars nor stem so not sure if they're original or the quality of them. Thankfully, the super nice shop owner gave me a Cinelli bar and stem combo when I bought the bike. I'll plan on using the stem with some lightweight alt/comfort bars of which TBD.


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## non-fixie

buses n bikes said:


> View attachment 1098758




Nice! Those bars on the left look like a copy of the set that Cinelli designed for Pope John Paul II in 1980, so he could ride the bike given to him by Ernesto Colnago. These days they are generally known as "priest bars".

Said bike and Pope:


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## juvela

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wrt Cinelli stem/bar set from dealer -

the stem will have a clamp size of 26.4mm

if the bar you select to use with it is not a Cinelli you will likely need to shim it

most common bar centre sizes are 25.0mm, 25.4mm and 26.0mm

please do not rely upon pinching down the clamp for a fit

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there appears to be a marking on the underside of the cantle plate of the Brooks.  be it confirmatory of the 1968 datum?


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## unregistered

Great to know! Thank you!!


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## unregistered

@juvela the date code on the underside of the Brooks is stamped A76


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## unregistered

Are there any Cinelli stems that have a clamp diameter other than 26.0, 26.4 or smaller? Had a heck of a time getting these 7/8”/22.2mm steel bars in...


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## unregistered

@juvela 
Are there any Cinelli stems that have a clamp diameter other than 26.0, 26.4 or smaller? Had a heck of a time getting these 7/8”/22.2mm steel bars in there.


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## juvela

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Did not respond to query in post nr. XXIV due to a lack of solid information to assist on me part.

When you mentioned Cinelli stem originally I was picturing something like model 1/A in alloy.  The 26.4mm bar centre and clamp size is correct for the Cinelli alloy products of the sixties and seventies.

My error.

Did check Sutherland manual for you and it only gives the 26.4mm size.   My copy is an early addition and later ones are sure to give more information...

Evidently, at least some, if not all, steel Cinelli products used the 25.4mm clamp size.  Here is a VB listing for a steel track bar from the firm -



			VeloBase.com - Component: Cinelli 14
		


This still does not explain your difficulty in mounting a 22.2mm bar.

Cinelli products launched in 1948 and steel stem and bar models continued to be offered at least into the mid-1960's.

This makes two errors made by me on your machine, one on the brake caliper model and one here on the stem.

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Sidenote -

if you have not done so already you might wish to straighten the rearward caliper arm on the front brake caliper.  it appears to have received a "modification" at some point, courtesy of the downtube, when the fork swung strongly to the right.

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## unregistered

Thank you for the info @juvela! I agree that brake caliper needs straightened or replaced. 

I was really hoping to use that stem with a comfortable and light modern bar ala Velo Orange but looks like another direction must be sought.


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## juvela

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Just to make sure we are on the same page...

22.2mm is unusally small for the clamp size of a bar but is a common diameter for the main portion of the bar


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## unregistered

Yeah, very strange. I verified that a set of 25.4 clamp bars were certainly not going in there.

Thanks for your help.


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## juvela

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One thought which comes to mind is that the stem may have been made for use with a juvenile bar with a smaller than adult bar center diameter.

This would explain why the shop had it around and no one had used it.

Sutherland states that England, France and Italy all produced bars with a 23.8mm center diameter.

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## unregistered

Aha, thanks!


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## juvela

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After posting recalled that at one time, roughly late 1940's through early 1960's, there were modest Cinelli badged juvenile cycles an adult transportation cycles produced.  These are not especially well known but when they do come up for sale they generate values well in excess of their intrinsic worth due to the Cinelli name.  Have seen examples.  Do not know the extent of Cinelli involvement in these products.

One practical adult model which has generated a bit of interest amongst collectors is the Riviera.  This was produced for Cinelli by Garlatti of Parma.

It occurred to me that it is possible your stem could come from one of these non-racing Cinelli badged machines.  If it had been a children's model it might have used a bar of a small center diameter; hence your stem.

Do not wish to assert this as a fact, just to mention to you as background information on a possibility.  A Cinelli juvenile cycle could have been "totalled" in some mishap and this stem salvaged.  Certainly no hard information held on my part.

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## unregistered

Good to know! I am familiar with the junior road bikes and there seems to be a decent quantity of them left in this locale for some reason. The ones here are largely of the French origin - Gitane, Motobecane models. They do make an interesting display and conversation piece.


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## unregistered

Thanks for eveyone’s help on this, especially @juvela for being so patient. 

This Paramount went off to a good home last night as it was slightly too big for me and I could not reconcile with that, as much as I loved this bike.

I believe the new owner is a member here, I will leave it up to him to pipe in or not. I think we’d all love to see how the refurb of this old bird goes!


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## juvela

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you might wish to append a message to this effect at the chainset thread as well

that way anyone venturing thither shall know the disposition of the machine/project


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## juvela

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Tip for readers:

The cycle's new owner has commenced a lively discussion thread on it reposing here -









						'68 Schwinn Paramount - Bike Forums
					

Classic & Vintage - '68 Schwinn Paramount - So my new year's resolution was to not buy anymore bikes. I managed to keep that promise until Feb. 4 which is a record for me before falling off the wagon, . I couldn't resist this 1968 Schwinn Paramount when it showed up locally. Plus it's my very...



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