# Early 1900's National Cycle Manufacturing bicycle



## DonC3 (Oct 10, 2016)

I have this family heirloom that I am considering restoring. I would appreciate any help with finding parts or restoration resources near Bay City, MI.


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## rustjunkie (Oct 10, 2016)

Cool bike! What's the story behind it?
@hoofhearted


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## mike j (Oct 10, 2016)

I don't know how much you plan to do yourself, but Pro- Strength Goof off works really well at taking off paint that hasn't been applied correctly. There may be a good amount of original nickel plating and paint left. That may help determine which way to go forward with the project. Nice bike, good luck with it.


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## MrColumbia (Oct 10, 2016)

Looks like the top frame tube is bent. Not sure if bent or optical illusion from the photo. If so you may want to look into what it may take to fix that before putting any money into it.


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## DonC3 (Oct 10, 2016)

My current intent is to restore the bike. It was purchased by my girlfriends grandfather in Bay City and her father always wanted to restore it, but was unable to locate parts for it. What I am looking for is help in finding missing parts and information on what it looked like when it was new. I'm not sure about how extensive a restoration I am capable of, but I would like to restore the original wheels. Any help would be appreciated. Any idea what it's worth in case I get overwhelmed in the process?


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## Ed Minas (Oct 10, 2016)

Good evening.  I live in Novi and would love to chat with you about the restoration of this cool piece.


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## redline1968 (Oct 11, 2016)

Yep the top tube looks bent. This is serious if you want to use it or restore it.


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## rustyspoke66 (Oct 11, 2016)

Let me know if you want it fixed. I have repaired several bikes with this damage successfully.


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## Iverider (Oct 11, 2016)

If you can repair the frame (or have it done) this will be a cool project. It appears that the black saddle in the background has the seatpost collet still on the seatpost (in case you weren't aware) You'll need nipple washers and 1" long nipples to rebuild the wheels. Oh, and just because that tire is probably crusty and uninflateable, don't throw it away, someone on The CABE will want it if you decide you do not.


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## Rambler (Oct 11, 2016)

DonC3 said:


> I have this family heirloom that I am considering restoring. I would appreciate any help with finding parts or restoration resources near Bay City, MI.




DonC3,
Please turn the bike around and take a good photograph of the sprocket so that I can narrow down the year range for you. Either post the photo on this thread or send it to me in a private message with photo. After seeing the photo I should be able to give you an idea of year for the bike.

As others have pointed out, you have a badly bent frame. Local to you, Assenmacher Cycles, 8053 Miller Rd, Swartz Creek, MI is an excellent place to take it for frame repair if you chose to have the frame repaired. Ask for Matt Assenmacher, he does beautiful frame repair work. I have had several projects worked on by him, everything from Safety bikes to Penny Farthings.

I'm not sure how valuable your bike really is, possibly more sentimental value than actual dollar value. If you are trying to determine if you may be getting in over your head financially to "restore" this bike you possibly are. Current condition as-is the bike and related parts is maybe $300.


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## corbettclassics (Oct 11, 2016)

I sent a PM minutes after this was listed but haven't heard anything back as of yet. Check your PM mailbox.

They had a special washer for the rear hub that you are missing. It's described in the ad I'm posting here.

Either way, here ya go and I say 1898 : Check for green or blue under that red paint. National called their bikes - "The Little Blue Wheel".

I have over a dozen ads on the National - here's a few.. Oh…. and if it's full nickel under the red then I have a surprise for you..!!


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## Rambler (Oct 12, 2016)

This bike cannot be any earlier than 1899 because that was the first year the new seat binder was introduced which is what this bike has. However if we are to assume 1899 then we have another problem because the seat (on the table) and handlebar stem in the bike were not introduced on Nationals until 1913. So possibly it's an 1899 with later accessories (seat and handlebar stem) as happens with many bikes of all eras, accessories changed later in life. Seeing the other side of the crank sprocket may help me with narrowing the year range for this bike which at the moment could be anywhere between 1899-1916


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## corbettclassics (Oct 12, 2016)

Going by my ads and my catalogue, by 1899 they got out that style chainring and started with this chainring as seen 
in this 1899 ad.  Its the same chainring my National has so I'm guessing his bike is 1898. ( just a guess -  and mine about 1900 or '01 )

The bar and stem was obviously added later but I never date a bike by something like those pieces.  Usually the cranks
are original and these appear to be.  I haven't seen that ring style after 1898 in any ad. I could be wrong but just going by my info.

I'll look through more of my info this weekend.  Here's an 1899 ad when they changed to the new style chain ring from the old style he 
has.  I only see his style chain ring on the 1898 or earlier ads.


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## Rambler (Oct 12, 2016)

The National catalogs show the spoked chain ring continuing on into 1899 and possibly beyond though not pictured in the catalogs beyond 1900. Possibly the spoked chain ring continued longer as old stock was used up on certain models.

Though there is one glaring problem with this bike being that early. It has NO frame lugging. I will need to consult my catalogs again for each year of production this evening to see when it appears that frame lugging was discontinued, but at the moment 1910-1916 era for this particular bike frame makes much more sense based on the frame construction.


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## corbettclassics (Oct 12, 2016)

Yes, could very well be as getting up to 1910 - '16 is too new for me and I don't really have info that new.
Look forward to seeing what you have..


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## DonC3 (Oct 13, 2016)

I really appreciate the comments and info from everyone. Unfortunately I did not bring the bike home with me from Bay City. I will post a picture of the sprocket side next time I get down there. There is definitely blue paint under the red. My first step will be looking into repairing the frame. I think it's possible. A couple people have recommended Assenmachers as a resource for frame repair in Mi. Guess I will start there.


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## Rambler (Oct 13, 2016)

I spent about 2 hours last evening reading through all the catalogs and ran out of time to post anything. Possibly this weekend if I have time I will scan a couple interesting catalog pages for posting to this thread. National Blue paint as DonC3 mentioned is on this bike was National's trade mark color used in all time periods. Once DonC3 posts a good photo of the sprocket side of the bike specifically of the sprocket/crank arm assembly. That may help me somewhat in being more sure of the production year. If DonC3 can determine what the serial number is that would certainly help as well.

What I can say for sure after reading 20 years worth of catalogs is once National decided they had perfected something they did not make many changes. I agree National had a well designed machine (I own a few myself) but that dedication to a single design makes Nationals very difficult to date accurately because they changed so very little between 1899-1916 aside from the components attached to the bike. The earlier models pre-1898 are actually much easier to determine the year of manufacture because something was being changed almost every year during that time period.

As I mentioned previously, this bike has no visible frame lugging as their earlier models did. The disappearance of frame lugging seems to have coincided with when National introduced the collet seat binder in 1899. This makes sense because if you are redesigning the frame to include a new feature, why not make all the changes at once. They even elude in one of the catalogs to their smooth seamless frame (presumably meaning no frame lugs).

Another reason National possibly didn't make many changes beyond 1899 is because as a whole, the bicycle industry by that point was on a downward trend and in the scheme of things National was not a large manufacturer so they probably didn't have the financial capitol to innovate much with new ideas. Stay the course and try to survive is what they appeared to do until finally being bought out by Davis Cycle in late 1916.

So back to this specific bike. The frame is clearly 1899 or later according to the catalogs. Spoked sprocket last appeared in catalog illustrations in 1900 but may have been used beyond that point or possibly it was replaced with a used sprocket at some point due to damage. Only reason I don't wish to date this bike 1899-1900 solely based on frame and sprocket is because all the componentry on this bicycle (handle bars, stem, seat, pedals) are all correct for National bicycles 1913-1916. Even the frame looks correct for 1913-1916 only the sprocket is questionable for that year.

If the components (handle bars, stem, seat, pedals) were all over the place coming from various sources and time periods and not featured in the 1913-1916 National catalogs, than I would be more certain that this bike is 1899-1900 and components were questionable being replaced at some point.

I suppose another possibility does exist though. Since this bicycle is in Bay City MI and has presumably spent its entire life in Bay City where Nationals were produced, possible the original owner of this particular bicycle worked at the National factory or went to a National bicycle dealer to obtain all National correct components of different time periods. In that case I would be more inclined to believe the original 1899-1900 time period for the frame and sprocket with all the components (handle bars, stem, seat, pedals) being added/replaced with later 1913-1916 National correct components.

In the end I suppose we may never know for sure when this bike was manufactured unless the owner can determine the serial number. That would most certainly help point us toward either the earlier 1899-1900 or later 1913-1916 time period.


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## corbettclassics (Oct 13, 2016)

I'm also curious that maybe the crank might help as well.  didn't they go to a two piece crank in 1899 or around there from
a one piece.  Maybe if he could pull the crank arm(s) out then that might help as well.  

Great info Rambler!  You mention that you have several.  I only have one but does yours have all that fancy lining at each lug?


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## Rambler (Oct 13, 2016)

This evening while looking back over the catalogs and comparing them to my Nationals and the photos of DonC3's National I believe I finally see the piece that convinces me that DonC3's National is 1899-1900 time period.  The lock nut on the left side is of the spanner type rather than the later hex type.  I completely agree with Corbettclassics that the crank assembly is probably original to the bike because I too highly doubt that someone would have swapped out the entire crank assembly on a 1913-1916 National for an 1899-1900 crank, just seems very unlikely.

The original reason I was hoping to see the other side of the crank (sprocket side) was to see if it might have a detachable right crank arm. However there too "according to the catalogs" National no longer had a detachable right crank arm by 1899-1900 time period. I am convinced if DonC3 posts a photo of the sprocket side we will see that the right crank arm is not detachable.

How 1913-1916 National correct components (handle bars, stem, seat, pedals) all ended up on this bike is still a bit of a mystery to me. I suspect my original assumption may be correct, that either the original owner of this particular bicycle worked at the National factory or frequented his National bicycle dealer to obtain all National correct components. DonC3 can rest assured that his bike is "all National Cycle", albeit from different time periods.



corbettclassics said:


> does yours have all that fancy lining at each lug?




Corbettclassics, Are you referring to paint striping around the lugs? My earliest National 1896 does have striping on each frame tube which runs up to each lug, but not on the lug itself. The later Nationals had fancy decals near the frame joints rather than striping.


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## corbettclassics (Oct 13, 2016)

Here's something on the "Flush Joints" for 1898 :


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## Rambler (Oct 14, 2016)

The only question I have regarding DonC3's bike possibly being a 1898 is that it is my understanding "according to catalogs" that the NEW collet seat binder was introduced for the 1899 model.  DonC3's bike does have the collet seat binder.  If some evidence exists to indicate this feature was early released in 1898 before appearing in the 1899 catalog as a "NEW" feature, then the possibility does exist that DonC3's bike could possibly be anywhere between 1898-1900 when they seemed to finally discontinue the spoked sprocket.


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## Rambler (Oct 14, 2016)

1899 catalog, the earliest mention of seat collet binder that I can locate.


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## Rambler (Oct 14, 2016)

As mentioned previously in this thread, National Cycle components shown in 1913-1916 catalogs, all appear to be the same as the components on DonC3's National.

Handlebars on DonC3's appear to be either style #6 or #7.

Handle bar neck same as shown on catalog bike.

Seat on catalog bike looks identical to that on the table next to DonC3's bike.

Pedals are rubber type same as shown on bike in catalog.

Components may be later than DonC3's bike frame but the components appear to be correct for National bicycles in general.


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## corbettclassics (Oct 15, 2016)

I was thinking 1898 because I wasn't considering the "collet" type fastener on his bike.  As per the 1899 catalogue you
are showing, it is not the same seat stay attachment to the seat cluster as his is all flush.  The new 1899 catalogue
pic looks like mine: pic attached >

I'm not sure what 1898 was using but wasn't it a lucky 7 type with a bolt on top?  His seat stays are different than the pic. Hmmm ...


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## Rambler (Oct 16, 2016)

corbettclassics said:


> I'm not sure what 1898 was using but wasn't it a lucky 7 type with a bolt on top? His seat stays are different than the pic. Hmmm ...




Yes Corbettclassics, in 1898 National appears to still be using the seat binder bolt. Your National is actually one of the early collet seat binder frame designs 1899 or later because it still has the boss. DonC3's bike frame is later than yours 1904 or later according to the catalogs since it has no frame boss.

If the catalog illustrations (photo below) are to be believed. The frame boss you see on your bike and in the catalog artwork for 1899-1902 shows the intermediate design which I believe is a carryover from the earlier binder bolt frames. The 1903 catalog unfortunately does not include an illustration of the seat binder so I'm not confidant when the transition took place. However the 1904 catalog does shows the new artwork with boss being eliminated. The artwork showing boss eliminated remained in catalogs all the way up to the end 1916.

So if the catalog artwork is to be believed and we temporally ignore DonC3's crank sprocket, DonC3's National "frame" could have been manufactured anywhere between 1904 to 1916. The components (handle bars, stem, seat, pedals) on DonC3's National are all shown in 1913-1916 catalogs. And again, according to the catalogs, the crank on DonC3's National appeared in the catalogs anywhere between 1898-1900 and possibly later but simply not illustrated in catalogs.

DonC3's National leads to alot of confusion because it doesn't align with any particular year of National production but has parts from all different time periods. Reminds me of a Johnny Cash  song "one piece at a time" as it appears that DonC3's National is built from a variety of parts.

The only thing that could really help date DonC3's National at this point is the serial number. The serial number would be the best evidence of when DonC3's National was manufactured.


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## corbettclassics (Oct 16, 2016)

Really excellent information Rambler.  I really appreciate your time in doing this as it's helping not just me but DonC3's questions too.


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## oldspoke (Oct 16, 2016)

Hello Rambler,Corbett, and All

I have owned this Stayer for a number of years now. I have always assumed that it was a National. This excellent thread of information seems to confirm that my bike would be a National and date between the years 1899 - 1903 . Would this be true in your opinion{s} ?

Unfortunately the head badge is missing.Would this bike take the round National badge pictured in this thread ? I would like to find one for this bike. Another unfortunate circumstance is that the frame has been power coated black. Removable but difficult.

Rambler, you had mentioned perusing many catalogs recently. Did you come across a catalog where a stayer had been offered ?

Rambler & C.Classics = Many thanks for sharing the information here !

Glenn


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## Rambler (Oct 16, 2016)

Glenn,

I'm curious, does your Stayer have the traditional spiral adjusting washers or possibly even the remnants of the adjusting teeth showing on the frame? (image below) Because that would confirm for sure it's a National. In the photo looks to have a banjo chain tensioner but that may have been added later.

From what I can see it does have the bottom bracket clamp bolts typical of National and frame does in every way look like a National 1899 - 1903. Even the name plate holes are in the correct position. To confirm, measure the distance between the two holes. Should be 1-1/2" center to center. If that's the distance than yes it would take the typical round National name plate which to my knowledge remained pretty much the same for all years of production.

I don't recall seeing a Stayer offered in the catalogs but I will look again and read carefully through the catalogs just to be sure if this bike may be in there. It is possible that National built it special for one of their racers to ride. On the last few pages of many catalogs there is mention of National winning races, who won them, what records were set, and who was riding what type of National bicycle. I'll see if the description of any of these rider's machines matches your bike. Do you know the frame size or could you measure the distance between center of crank to top tube? That would help because the frame size is mentioned in each racer description so it will narrow the search.

Monday's are very busy for me so probably won't have time to look through the catalogs until Tuesday. That should give you time to either post or PM me the frame size for reference.

Tyson


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## corbettclassics (Oct 17, 2016)

I have several pictures of racers who raced on a National but none on a Stayer.  I'm always researching!


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## oldspoke (Oct 17, 2016)

Hello Rambler

Thanks for your response.

Enclosed are a few more photos = BB, Headset,Stem,crank . 

One side of rear hub does have the adjusting washer {photo did not come out}

I did not see small adjusting teeth on the drop out yet these may be covered in paint.
Serial # on bb 27683. Yes - badge holes seem to measure aprox 1 3/8 - 1 1/2 inch.
Frame measures 22" center to center or 23" ctr to top of collet binder.

I'm sure that this Stayer is a National .


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## Rambler (Oct 18, 2016)

Curiosity got the better of me last evening so before going to bed I did briefly look through the catalogs. Yes National did build a Stayer model called the "Pace Follower" beginning in 1903 and continued all the way to the end 1916. I'll post my findings regarding your National Glenn as soon as possible but may be a day or two before I have time to scan and post catalog pages. In short, I have absolutely no doubt that your bicycle is a National.


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## oldspoke (Oct 18, 2016)

Hello Rambler

Many thanks for the confirmation.

Is this the type of badge that I am looking for ?

Many thanks,

Glenn


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## Rambler (Oct 18, 2016)

oldspoke said:


> Is this the type of badge that I am looking for ?




Yes it is.


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## corbettclassics (Oct 18, 2016)

Yes - correct.


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## Rambler (Oct 20, 2016)

Sorry this took so long to post, just been an incredibly busy week for me. I had very little time to research and scan catalogs for this post.

So as promised Glenn, below is the National information that I have which best fits the era of your Stayer or what National called the "Pace Follower".

I’ll begin by saying I have noticed that National’s catalog descriptions don't always match the illustrations.  This has led to some speculation in attempting to determine the year of Glenn’s Stayer.  For instance; even though the 1904 catalog shows the newer seat post collet artwork without frame boss, some catalog bicycle illustrations for 1904 still show the earlier frame with boss.  Makes one wonder exactly when certain features were phased in or out and exactly what in the catalogs can be believed.  I'm speculating that National phased in new features as old stock was used up rather than scraping anything.  That may help explain some discrepancies between actual bicycles and catalog illustrations.

Speculation is what I have encountered when comparing Glenn’s Stayer to the catalogs. Glenn’s Stayer early frame best fits the 1902 catalog illustration while 1903 was the first year the Stayer configuration with straight front fork was available and 1904 is the first year the 22” frame is listed as an option.  So was Glenn’s Stayer built to special order possibly as early as 1902, or was National still using the earlier design frames possibly as late as 1904?  My best guess would be Glenn’s Stayer is a 1903 Model 61 Special "Pace Follower" built to order in very late 1902 or early 1903 but I’ll let Glenn be the one to decide exactly how and when his National was created.

I believe the crank on Glenn’s Stayer was an aftermarket component selected by the original owner because National seems to have never offered that particular crank in production, at least not according to the catalogs. That’s not surprising considering we accessorize our modern bicycles today to suit our desires so I’m sure they did it back then as well.  Best of luck to someone 100 years from now trying to figure out my mountain bike since I have changed most of the components to my desire.

One addition observation is that National catalogs for the "Pace Follower" model always stated 28 spoke front wheels yet I noticed Glenn’s Stayer has 36 spokes in the front wheel.  Again, may have been an owner modification.  In any case Glenn’s Stayer "Pace Follower" is a very nice example and the only one I have ever seen built by National.



1902 - No Stayer "Pace Follower" model was offered.  Closest offering to Glenn’s Stayer is the Model 52 Track Racer.  The seat post collet with frame boss appears to match Glenn’s Stayer for 1902.  Note: the catalog states that frame is 21” not 22” as Glenn’s Stayer and both wheels are 28” not 26”F & 28”R as Glenn’s Stayer. However catalog does state “We will alter specifications to suit the purchaser”. Does this mean it was possible to have a bike like Glenn’s Stayer built to order by National as early as 1902?   







1903 – First year of the "Pace Follower" Model 61 Special having wheels 26”F & 28”R as Glenn’s Stayer.  Catalog states “A straight fork is furnished when ordered”.  Only discrepancies between Glenn’s Stayer and the Model 61 "Pace Follower" are the catalog states the frame size is 19” however Glenn’s Stayer has a 22” frame, was it a special order built to suit? And the catalog illustration shows the later frame design without boss while Glenn’s Stayer is the earlier frame design with boss. Though this may be explained by the fact that 1903 seems to be a transitional year with some bicycle illustrations showing the boss and others not and catalog for 1903 does not have an illustration of the seat post collet for that year.  1902 catalog shows the earlier illustration of seat post collet with frame boss and 1904 catalog shows the later illustration without boss while 1903 catalog shows neither one.







1904 – Second year of the "Pace Follower" now called Model 70 Special.  Finally we have a bicycle that almost perfectly fits the description of Glenn’s Stayer.  Optional 22” frame is available, wheels 26”F & 28”R, and a straight fork is suggested to shorten the wheelbase.  Only difficulty I have with Glenn’s Stayer being 1904 or later is the catalog illustration does not show the earlier frame design with boss on this model as Glenn’s Stayer has. Possibly the catalog illustration didn't depict reality?  






Later years 1905 and beyond the "Pace Follower"  models all look about the same as the 1904 example with only slight variations on equipment so no point in posting them all and I doubt Glenn’s Stayer could be much later than 1904 with that early frame.  I believe Glenn’s Stayer is most likely 1902 - 1904.  It’s very difficult to get more specific on a date since the National catalog information and/or markings on the bicycles built by National are not identifiable enough to get very specific.  It’s really unfortunate that National did not stamp model numbers on their bicycles as some other manufacturers did so we could positively identify the year without question.

Tyson


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## Rambler (Oct 20, 2016)

Glenn, Here is some additional information that you may find interesting and possibly useful.

Your handle bar stem is clearly illustrated in the National catalog so no question it is National. I also believe the handle bars and hand grips to be original National as well, very possibly the number 2 handle bar as shown in the National catalog.







I noticed the seat seems to be missing from your Stayer. Here is the catalog pages for 1902-1904 seats which may help for possible seat selection.





Tyson


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## Rambler (Oct 21, 2016)

Just saw Glenn's National Stayer "Pace Follower" crank on another Cabe post regarding Hudson Racer from none other than Michigan, same home state as the National.  Amazing what you can lean while hanging around on the Cabe!











http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/hudson-racer.98411/#post-637660


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## oldspoke (Oct 25, 2016)

Good Evening Rambler.

Sorry for the long delayed reply.

Many thanks for this detailed response. It would seem that my Stayer or "Path Follower" is late ' 02 -' 04 .
Great information !

Might you have a "lead" for a National badge ? Unlikely but worth asking.

I would assume that this National Stayer is a rare machine being quite early . Yes ?

Again - Much Appreciated !

Glenn


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## Rambler (Oct 25, 2016)

Glenn,

Yes I would agree that your National Stayer is a rare machine. I have never seen another besides yours and I have heard of only one other unconfirmed as I have never seen it.  Nationals in general are not extremely rare in Michigan where I am given this was the state they were manufactured.  However considering the "Pace Follower" is a specific purpose racing machine it's no surprise that there are fewer of them than the more basic standard everyday cycles National manufactured.  

Currently I do not know of an available National head badge but if I learn of one I will gladly let you know.  I have seen them come up on ebay and at swap meets from time to time.

Tyson


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Mar 12, 2019)

Nice National Cycles pin!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/National-Cycles-Co-Bicycle-Advertising-Pin-Stickpin-Lot-360-/123068172080


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