# Determining Value



## Sean (Oct 15, 2014)

Are there websites or books (recent publications) to help with putting a value on a vintage bicycle? I know Ebay completed auctions can be helpful but only if the model you have was sold there!


----------



## bricycle (Oct 15, 2014)

This is the place to be!!! (and the correct thread area) 
Welcome to the CABE!


----------



## partsguy (Oct 15, 2014)

Classic bikes and classic cars are judged in a similar way when it comes to value. Year, make, model, and condition are just the basics. For many bikes, the value can go down, stay the same, or increase exponentially based on options, original, partially restored, full restored, resto-modded, hot rodded, color, documentation, etc.

There is no "guide" for bicycles that I am aware of but you want a vale for insurance purposes or a value with intention to sell, you came to the right place. Give us lots of good pictures and post the serial number and we'll try our best to give you a real-world idea of your ride's worth.


----------



## Freqman1 (Oct 15, 2014)

I've collected a number of things for years and have price guides on everything from stamps and coins to coke trays to sports cards to watches to whatever. Wait, did you catch that? yea they are price _guides_. Yet I still see people say "well the book says it is worth $xx". If people would actually take time to read these books they tell you right up front that it is strictly a guide and a variety of factors including condition, scarcity and even locale can determine the true value of an item which is what a willing seller and a willing buyer agree upon. There has been a lot of volatility in the bicycle market the last few years in certain areas so you really have to pay attention to what is going on. If you really have no idea you could always post here like Bri said but please include a few pictures. V/r Shawn


----------



## Dobie (Oct 15, 2014)

Check out Worthpoint   http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia  It is a subscription site that has auction prices from over 350 sources including Copake


----------



## bike (Oct 15, 2014)

*Someone must cause they are still there but*



Dobie said:


> Check out Worthpoint   http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia  It is a subscription site that has auction prices from over 350 sources including Copake




does ANYONE here actually pay?

I look at so many  auctions I usually remember the result and never hit the subscribe button


----------



## charnleybob (Oct 15, 2014)

Copake is a lot like Barrett Jackson: an over inflated view of what items are really worth.
Where the buyers at Barrett Jackson are preening for the cameras and most likely drunk, the bidders at Copake are in steep competition with a multi-zillionaire museum that likes to spend money because they can.
This in turn inflates prices to levels that are just not realistic.
This also tends to explain the seasonal rise and fall of values.
A bike for sale in the spring, after Copake and income tax refund time, sells higher than the same bike come fall and winter/Christmas time.
This hobby has always been a cornucopia of weird sales that are too low and some that are really too high.
Ebay prices are on crack!
I have seen parts, common stuff go for ridiculous prices.
Anybody remember the $100 set of tires selling for $500+ last spring on Ebay?
The only solution to determining value is to get educated and to know what the bikes and parts really are.
This way you can be happy when you get something cheap and also know when to gnash your teeth when you realize you paid too much.


----------



## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Oct 15, 2014)

charnleybob said:


> Copake is a lot like Barrett Jackson: an over inflated view of what items are really worth.
> Where the buyers at Barrett Jackson are preening for the cameras and most likely drunk, the bidders at Copake are in steep competition with a multi-zillionaire museum that likes to spend money because they can.
> This in turn inflates prices to levels that are just not realistic.
> This also tends to explain the seasonal rise and fall of values.
> ...



Oh yes...I remember them tires.... listed mine 20 seconds after they sold !... I was actually bidding on a northwest patrol badge on there today.. footed style...went for 160... I thought they sold for way more then that...only 4 bidders too.. up n down with ebay


----------



## Sean (Oct 15, 2014)

I have an idea of value but I haven't seen ads here that list or mention what a particular item sold for. 

The good-

Original frame. forks, cranks, sprocket, air cooled hubs, shroud (with switches). seat post, rack, battery pod for rack, rear lense, handlebars, gooseneck and fenders. 

repro jeweled pedals and grips

Sprocket, handlebars, cranks, seat post and gooseneck have been rechromed

original kickstand

The Bad-

Stainless spokes and repro drop center rims

I have the hockey stick chain guard but it needs some work

Repro dual headlights

repro light holder bracket

Not painted

seat isn't original


----------



## Sean (Oct 16, 2014)

Anyone?


----------



## Freqman1 (Oct 17, 2014)

Ok I'll throw my 2c out there. I'm gonna say $700-900. Here is a link http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?51114-F-S-Prewar-Elgin-Twin-Bar-4-Star&highlight=star  to one Nick and Darcie had for sale that eventually sold at MLC last year. I'm guessing it sold in the $2k range and was a pretty decent resto that presented well. These were red hot a couple of years ago but the market has cooled considerably for some reason. The repo light set-up would be a deal breaker for many and I've seen original light set-ups go for anywhere between $300-700. Jus my thoughts. V/r Shawn


----------



## Nickinator (Oct 17, 2014)

Freqman1 said:


> Ok I'll throw my 2c out there. I'm gonna say $700-900. Here is a link http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?51114-F-S-Prewar-Elgin-Twin-Bar-4-Star&highlight=star  to one Nick and Darcie had for sale that eventually sold at MLC last year. I'm guessing it sold in the $2k range and was a pretty decent resto that presented well. These were red hot a couple of years ago but the market has cooled considerably for some reason. The repo light set-up would be a deal breaker for many and I've seen original light set-ups go for anywhere between $300-700. Jus my thoughts. V/r Shawn




Yep, we sold ours for 2k. Thought that bike should have brought more...but they do seem to have cooled in value. And no repop parts on that one either.
I agree with Shawn on value.

Darcie


----------



## Sean (Oct 17, 2014)

Hmm. That's much lower than what I was thinking. 

just looking at past auctions on ebay for parts you couldn't piece one together for 700-900. 

original ww tires               40
Fenders                          50
Frame                         300
hubs                              50
shroud                         200 (what I paid for an original)
rack                             250 (what I paid for an original)
rear light lense              26-50
crank shroud                 200
seat post and clamp       177 !! 
rechromed bars               60 
                sprocket          40
                cranks             40

That's all original parts. my bike has about another $200 in repro parts on it. rims, s/s spokes, grips, headlights, small head light bracket and pedals. I know Ebay can be inflated but by $600?


----------



## aasmitty757 (Oct 17, 2014)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Oh yes...I remember them tires.... listed mine 20 seconds after they sold !... I was actually bidding on a northwest patrol badge on there today.. footed style...went for 160... I thought they sold for way more then that...only 4 bidders too.. up n down with ebay




So did you win the auction?


----------



## Jeff54 (Oct 17, 2014)

Sean said:


> Hmm. That's much lower than what I was thinking.
> 
> I know Ebay can be inflated but by $600?




While I aint been at this bike swap thing as long as others, there's one easy verifiable point, Unusual for most collector types but autos do it too. . Piecing a bike together, has greater odds of higher cost or per part sale value than buying somebodies build or complete. In most cases, there's  more money in parting them, albeit, more work too.


----------



## bricycle (Oct 17, 2014)

Not much response, so I'll throw a figure out there. $1000.00?
Folks will undoubtly will chime in sooner or later...?


----------



## Freqman1 (Oct 17, 2014)

Sean said:


> Hmm. That's much lower than what I was thinking.
> 
> just looking at past auctions on ebay for parts you couldn't piece one together for 700-900.
> 
> ...






You are right you can't piece one together for that. I was talking about the whole bike. If you want to blow it apart then its the price of what the parts will bring. Two different things. Had you asked what is this worth in parts then I may more or less agree with your valuations. The problem with this bike is that it has the repo lights and rims. The bike isn't original which only leaves either a rat or resto. Its not worth the resto when I  would have to chase down the original parts, paint, and misc chrome to be done hence the $700-900 valuation. V/r Shawn


----------



## Nickinator (Oct 17, 2014)

Sean said:


> Hmm. That's much lower than what I was thinking.
> 
> just looking at past auctions on ebay for parts you couldn't piece one together for 700-900.
> 
> ...




Doubt you'd get $300 for the frame, we had just a frame for sale for awhile and think it ended up going for $150...actually we've had 5 in various condition and equipment over the last 2 years...and the other parts may or may not sell for that, guess it depends on how long you want to keep relisting them on ebay (and paying fees). But right, a bike in parts costs more to build, and nets more when selling.

Darcie


----------



## Sean (Oct 27, 2014)

Sold the bike last friday, thanks for your imput. 

I pitched in a few rims, extra rear fender and strapped the chainguard back on for the $1200 selling price.

The xtras were offered after we agreed on price.


----------



## walter branche (Oct 27, 2014)

*thanks*

thanks for giving accurate information on the complete transaction ,, hats off to you ,walter branche ,


----------



## bricycle (Oct 27, 2014)

Nickinator said:


> Doubt you'd get $300 for the frame, we had just a frame for sale for awhile and think it ended up going for $150...actually we've had 5 in various condition and equipment over the last 2 years...and the other parts may or may not sell for that, guess it depends on how long you want to keep relisting them on ebay (and paying fees). But right, a bike in parts costs more to build, and nets more when selling.
> 
> Darcie




I paid $300 on e-bay for mine with fork, kick stand and seat post assy....oh and one crank cover. $40 for ship.


----------



## Sean (Oct 28, 2014)

walter branche said:


> thanks for giving accurate information on the complete transaction ,, hats off to you ,walter branche ,




Thanks. I was glad it was going where it was. They buyer was VERY happy with it .


----------



## BobP (Oct 30, 2014)

*Elgin twin bar 2-speed Model 502 ... I think*

Hello, I am new to the forum.  Not sure if this is the correct thread so I apologize in advance if incorrect.

We came across what I believe to be an Elgin twin-bar 2-speed bicycle.  There are no tires or grips on it, but everything else is original and working as far as I can tell without riding it.  The only number I found on it so far is the sticker on the seat tube with 502-127, but I have not really tried too hard to find numbers elsewhere on it.   I'm wondering if someone on here could give me an idea what it might be worth.   I only have a few pictures.  You can't really see it in the pics but it has a single headlight on the fender, also original.












Also, any idea on what tires would be good for it?

Thanks,
Bob


----------



## bricycle (Oct 30, 2014)

what ever tires you like....


----------



## BobP (Oct 30, 2014)

bricycle said:


> what ever tires you like....




Thanks, cool bike.   Just wondering if there is something what would be close to original if I decide to keep.


----------



## bricycle (Oct 30, 2014)

BobP said:


> Thanks, cool bike.   Just wondering if there is something what would be close to original if I decide to keep.




Sears Allstate saw tooth are pretty standard.

like these: (post #4/5) http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?54678-Balloon-Tires-For-Sale&highlight=allstate


----------



## BobP (Nov 16, 2014)

bricycle said:


> Sears Allstate saw tooth are pretty standard.
> 
> like these: (post #4/5) http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?54678-Balloon-Tires-For-Sale&highlight=allstate




I put some tires on and some grips (both modern) and took a little spin in the basement...rides nice and smooth.  Shifter works too.  Need to take outside but weather in Chicago area not the greatest.


----------



## vincev (Nov 16, 2014)

BobP said:


> Hello, I am new to the forum.  Not sure if this is the correct thread so I apologize in advance if incorrect.
> 
> We came across what I believe to be an Elgin twin-bar 2-speed bicycle.  There are no tires or grips on it, but everything else is original and working as far as I can tell without riding it.  The only number I found on it so far is the sticker on the seat tube with 502-127, but I have not really tried too hard to find numbers elsewhere on it.   I'm wondering if someone on here could give me an idea what it might be worth.
> 
> ...


----------



## morton (Nov 17, 2014)

*Couldn't let this pass without comment!!!!!!!!!!*



charnleybob said:


> Copake is a lot like Barrett Jackson: an over inflated view of what items are really worth.
> Where the buyers at Barrett Jackson are preening for the cameras and most likely drunk,




I've often thought that myself when I see some of the prices they pay!


----------



## Sean (Nov 21, 2014)

Nice bike! I'd do a lot of research about value before you get ready to sell. Like was mentioned a lot of people have their own agenda when it comes to posting here. I sold my Elgin for about $300 more than I was told it was worth in this thread. 

Oh, your seat post bracket is on upside down btw!


----------



## rustjunkie (Nov 21, 2014)

Looks like the seat bracket still has the Sears model # decal on it (not that common). Would you be able to take a close-up of it, or at least note the text/numbers here, please?


----------



## BobP (Nov 21, 2014)

rustjunkie said:


> Looks like the seat bracket still has the Sears model # decal on it (not that common). Would you be able to take a close-up of it, or at least note the text/numbers here, please?




I wasn't sure if that last couple of posts were referring to my bike or not.  If so, I did not realize the seat bracket is upside down.

If my bike, yes the label is readable.  It has 502-127 on it.  I can take a picture of it this weekend.


Regards,
Bob


----------



## rustjunkie (Nov 21, 2014)

BobP said:


> If so, I did not realize the seat bracket is upside down.
> 
> If my bike, yes the label is readable.  It has 502-127 on it.  I can take a picture of it this weekend.
> 
> ...




Thanks, pics would be great. 
What is right-side up? I'd bet that the clamp was positioned this way so someone could ride the bike...nuthin' wrong with that. If that's the case, then the clamp is perfectly right side up...right?


----------



## BobP (Nov 21, 2014)

rustjunkie said:


> Thanks, pics would be great.
> What is right-side up? I'd bet that the clamp was positioned this way so someone could ride the bike...nuthin' wrong with that. If that's the case, then the clamp is perfectly right side up...right?




If I recall correctly the sticker is right-side up with the current location of the seat clamp, I could be wrong, but i believe that to be the case.  Again, I'll take pictures this weekend.


----------



## rustjunkie (Nov 21, 2014)

BobP said:


> If I recall correctly the sticker is right-side up with the current location of the seat clamp...




now _*that *_would be interesting!


----------



## BobP (Nov 22, 2014)

rustjunkie said:


> now _*that *_would be interesting!




I was wrong, it is upside down.  Pic rotated for easy reading.







I thought it had a new departure hub but turns out to be a musselman 2-speed. Thanks to person on here pointing that out.


----------



## walter branche (Nov 22, 2014)

*value*

do not believe anything anyone says or writes about value , there are people who have no idea , and they will post just to get there name on line , there are people who post there opinion ,and they possibly sold a similar bike at one time or another. the value is when 2 people come to an agreement and money changes hands , .. I have bought bikes that were valued at 1,500 and sold them for almost 10 times the amount the experts thought or wrote what there opinion was . good luck buying and selling ,there is always someone who will devalue your piece and there is always someone who pays more ,.. no auction house price determines anything, the house is full of know it alls ,who have the passion of purchase , some think ,they know everything ,. there are lots of people who are not involved in the cabe , ..they can be reached by an ebay sale , auction zip , craigslist , car shows ,,  just riding the bike around ,. have fun in this sport or hobby , it is full of fruits and nuts , liars and cheaters ,walter branche , almost 50 years , buying and selling some of the rarest wheeled vehicles , wpb ,, now lets here from the gallery !!!  ha ha ha


----------



## phantom (Nov 22, 2014)

> the value is when 2 people come to an agreement and money changes hands ,



Exactly, that is the true value of that item at that time. What the seller can convert it to cash for when they need or want to, that's it.  You may have a bike that you think is worth $1,000 and several have sold for that much or more and your twelve relatives and neighbors tell you it's worth more when in fact, it is worth exactly what you convert it to cash for if you decide to sell, nothing more nothing less.


----------



## Freqman1 (Nov 22, 2014)

walter branche said:


> do not believe anything anyone says or writes about value , there are people who have no idea , and they will post just to get there name on line , there are people who post there opinion ,and they possibly sold a similar bike at one time or another. the value is when 2 people come to an agreement and money changes hands , .. I have bought bikes that were valued at 1,500 and sold them for almost 10 times the amount the experts thought or wrote what there opinion was . good luck buying and selling ,there is always someone who will devalue your piece and there is always someone who pays more ,.. no auction house price determines anything, the house is full of know it alls ,who have the passion of purchase , some think ,they know everything ,. there are lots of people who are not involved in the cabe , ..they can be reached by an ebay sale , auction zip , craigslist , car shows ,,  just riding the bike around ,. have fun in this sport or hobby , it is full of fruits and nuts , liars and cheaters ,walter branche , almost 50 years , buying and selling some of the rarest wheeled vehicles , wpb ,, now lets here from the gallery !!!  ha ha ha




I suppose I qualify as the "gallery" because I'm not one of the anointed. That said when someone asks the question about value I try to offer an opinion based on experience and observations. While, pragmatically, the value of an object is what a willing seller and willing buyer agree on this isn't very much help for someone trying to get a baseline idea of the value of something. BTW you also forgot to mention cranky, old, rude a$$holes  as participants in this hobby. V/r Shawn


----------



## walter branche (Nov 22, 2014)

*Me .*

I AM ONE , I AM AN EXAMPLE OF ALL THE ABOVE , FTW-- IS MY MOTTO , NEVER READ SO MUCH BS IN MY LIFE UNTIL i STARTED READING ALL THE EXPERTS ON HERE ,, i AM ASHAMED TO SPEND MY VALUABLE TIME , ON READING AND TRYING TO LEARN ,, THERE ARE A FEW VERY COOL CHARACTERS WHO CONTRIBUTE AND i REALLY APPRECIATE THERE EFFORT , i GET MAIL FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD FROM PEOPLE WHO ASK ME ABOUT WHAT SO AND SO WROTE , ..here is something to think about ,,   sears sold bikes through there catalog all over the USA...... bikes are everywhere. I found my bluebird in a barn in moultrie georgia , !!! figure that out , offered 1,500.00 bought it for 2500.00 sold it for 9,000.00,, i could go on and on , nothing is nothing ,until money is exchanged , I bought the old motorcycle for 400.00 ,with experts all around me ,thinking i was stupid , sold it for 9,000 a few weeks later , now you could not buy it for 175,000 , there are many tales to tell , I still get information about bikes everyday , if I had a pocket full of money , I could assemble the nicest collection in the world , my connections are in every part of our mother earth ,. there are lots of bikes , sitting , and will never be sold ,because of people who try to get everything for cheap or nothing ,and the people think bicycle people are idiots , because of there negotiation skills ,, HA HA HA ,walter branche the fly in the ointment - if you see something you want or like at a swap meet ,,  you better buy it ,,  there are lots of people like me who buy and resell  and PART OUT , i sell bits and pieces all over the world , I will stop when I am dead . check out the 18 bowdens ,found in a lawn mower shop ,


----------



## cyclingday (Nov 22, 2014)

You guys are awesome!
I love you all.
Now, back to that Elgin Twin Bar.
I'm thinking that two speed might be the rarely seen Morrow type.
Very similar to the Musselman, but the push/pull cable accuator was definitely a feature of the Morrow type.
Super cool to see one complete and useable.


----------



## rustjunkie (Nov 22, 2014)

cyclingday said:


> I'm thinking that two speed might be the rarely seen Morrow type.
> Very similar to the Musselman, but the push/pull cable accuator was definitely a feature of the Morrow type.
> Super cool to see one complete and useable.




These units were made for Musselman, New Departure and Morrow. Had 5 NOS way back: 4 Musselman, and 1 Morrow. I just gave away the last original instruction sheet that was here, but will scan an original advertising flyer and post it in a bit.


----------



## rustjunkie (Nov 22, 2014)

Well shoot. The flyer here only shows the "suicide" shifter models.

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?65806-Musselman-2spd-Flyer&p=399513#post399513


----------



## bike (Nov 22, 2014)

*MM 2 speed cable opp*



rustjunkie said:


> Well shoot. The flyer here only shows the "suicide" shifter models.
> 
> http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?65806-Musselman-2spd-Flyer&p=399513#post399513


----------

