# Anyone identify these lugs and or frame?



## donmac70 (Mar 11, 2019)

Looks quite interesting and outfitted with fine early Campy and other parts.   Has damage on seat stay and am wondering if it's worth having it repaired (replace the broken stay if possible
































Looks quite interesting and outfitted with fine early Campy and other parts.   Has damage on seat stay and am wondering if it's worth having it repaired (replace the broken stay if possible), I know a frame builder who learned the skill at Whitcomb (Connecticut) back in the 70's who may be able to repair it.  Any help or ideas would be appreciated.   Thought at first maybe early Cinelli but BB not 74mm and lugs???

All chrome 
58cm x 58cm (C-C)
Early "open C" Campagnolo dropouts
Italian BB 70mm wide (not 74mm)
Campy early BB (Italian)
1958 Record cotterless crankset (with raised pedal lip)
Campy Gran Sport derailleurs
Early Campy Headset
Campy hi flange Record no Record hubs (not shown in photos but all locknuts date 60 or 1960)
Ambrosio Champion stem and bars


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## donmac70 (Mar 11, 2019)

Oh also seat post is either 26.0 or 26.2mm


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## donmac70 (Mar 11, 2019)

Missing head badge holes are ca. 40mm apart


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## juvela (Mar 11, 2019)

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Thank you very much for sharing this interesting find.

As you have already determined we are right near to 1960 here. Frameset and fittings are all very much "of a piece."

The frame is constructed of an Agrati lug pattern termed "BRIANZA."

The lug set has the stock number ART. 000.8030/U.

The lower head lug is stock number 000.8033.

The upper head lug is stock numver 000.8034.

The seat lug is stock number 000.8039.  It was offered in both the Malguti style as we have here and in a plain ("normal") style without the Malguti plugs.

The fork crown is stock number 000.8038.

The bottom bracket shell is part of the "BRIANZA" set as well but do not have the stock number for it.

The Campag ends set Nr. 1010 has right dropout Nr. 301 and left dropout Nr. 300.

Fork ends are Campag item Nr. 2.

Knowing the bits employed to construct the frame does little to advance an identification as all of these fittings were freely available to everyone - nothing proprietary in this case.

A pillar size of 26.2mm would suggest a quality plain gauge tubeset.  Examine the north end of the seat tube to check if can be opened up or not.  They frequently get somewhat deformed yielding an artificially small measurement.  Given the materials and fittings employed one would expect the frame to be assembled of Columbus SL or SP tubing, or a combination of the two.  This would yield a pillar size of either 27.0mm or 27.2mm. If frame constructed of Columbus tubing the steerer should exhibit helical ribs (rifling) on its interior surface.  You should be able to see a Columbus dove marking on the outside of the steerer.

Can see no details to the frame which point to a specific maker.

Serial marked on shell appears to read 5801; is this correct?  There look to be some characters in front of this which are illegible.  Are you able to discern them?

The machine's brake set would have been either Universal (Fratelli Pietra) or Balilla (Giovanni Galli S.p.A.).

The headplate fastener dimension you provide may aid in an identification.  See that the holes are arranged horizontally.  Am away from my headplates this week but will be able to check them against the 40mm dimension next week.

Do not assume the chrome plating to be original.  It is possible that it was done post manufacture.  The uneveness of it in the seat cluster and bottom bracket areas is suggestive of an aftermarket job. Also, do not assume all braze-ons to be original.

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## donmac70 (Mar 11, 2019)

Wow many thanks Juvela for your fast response and detailed information!!!   I did tap out the set tube top slot to parallel and am sure it's either 26.0 or 26.2 and yes looks like Serial # to be 5801 the other makings on BB maybe "LA 60" though pretty illegible.......if 60 it might mean that 60cm (C-T)???


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## juvela (Mar 11, 2019)

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With respect to the markings on the bottom bracket keep in mind the possibility that some or all of the markings may have been put by a licensing agency.  Do not wish to assert that this is the case; mention it only as a possibility.

Regarding the seat tube opening size -

there could be plating, dirt, corrosion on the interior which would give an artificially small reading.  this especially the case here since plating appears it may be aftermarket.  also, sometimes the heat of brazing the seat lug can put the seat tube a bit out-of-round. if mine, would run an expandable blade reamer through there to clear away any out-of-roundness or foreign matter.  this is a tool all framebuilders and first quality bike shops will have.

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## fat tire trader (Mar 12, 2019)

It looks like originally it was painted with some parts left bare chrome.
I have a couple frames with the same lugs.
Does it have head badge holes? If so, are they vertical or horizontal and how far are they apart.
If you decide to sell or trade the parts, I could use them.
Thanks,
Chris


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## juvela (Mar 12, 2019)

fat tire trader said:


> It looks like originally it was painted with some parts left bare chrome.
> I have a couple frames with the same lugs.
> Does it have head badge holes? If so, are they vertical or horizontal and how far are they apart.
> If you decide to sell or trade the parts, I could use them.
> ...




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 head emblem fastener holes horizontal, 40mm apart

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## fat tire trader (Mar 12, 2019)

One of the builders that used those lugs was Olmo. Olmo head badge rivets are vertical.


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## donmac70 (Mar 13, 2019)

Hi Juvela..........is that a K size adjustable reamer?   Look forward to you reviewing your head badge sizes next week.   Thanks again for your input!


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## donmac70 (Mar 13, 2019)

Just to clarify the 40mm distance is circumvential (poked holes in paper and measured that distance), with calipers (hole to hole) ca. 29.2mm


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## juvela (Mar 13, 2019)

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Thank you for the clarification.

Was assuming circumferential.

Chris mentioned Olmo as employing the "BRIANZA" lug pattern.*

The set was in production for more than three decades and was employed by _hundreds _of Italian makers.

To give some idea as to the "needle in a haystack" search when an Italian frame does not bear a proprietary feature here is a very incomplete alphabetical list of one thousand Italians -

http://www.italiaanseracefietsen.com/merkenlijst/#

Another well known and relatively large marque which employed it for a long period was Torresini ("Torpado").

And their headplate fasteners were horizontal.

Had to eliminate them straightaway as their serials are placed on the side of the seat tube and commence with a triangular symbol.

If we take the seat binder collar to be original we can likely eliminate many of the very well known badges as they tended to place their name on the collar.

This tends to suggest we are looking at a frame from a relatively small producer (or one done on a contract basis) which limits the chance of a correct identification.

Do not have my reamer specifications in my head.  Reamers abide in same location as headplates so will check for a marking when I get back there.  As I remember they are not letter denominated but are rather marked with a size range in inches.

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*  Brianza is a place name from where Agrati was located.


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## juvela (Mar 19, 2019)

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Buongiorno donmac70,

_Su bici di mistero -_

Had an opportunity to check me headplates.  The 40mm horizontal looks to be quite a common arrangement.

The following of me assortment fit it -

Atala (Cesare Rizzato)

Bianchi (2 styles)

Garlatti

Girardengo (these are contract builds reportedly done in prisons)

Hermes (believed contract badge)

Italsport (believed contract badge)

Lygie (Cesare Rizzato)

Vittoria (in-house brand from Fiorelli)

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Notes -

Many/most Italian metal badges look to have been done by one maker.  They appear to have had several stock blank shapes to choose from.  Cycle manufacturers would have been able to get a better price by selecting one of these, hence saving the setup cost of a custom shape.

Some of the stock patterns included ovals, shield shapes, etc.

There are likely hundreds of marques which fit the 40mm horizontal fastener arrangement so it does little to advance an identification other than eliminating the hundreds of marques which do not employ it.

Rizzato owned at least six or eight marques however their serials are placed on the drive side of the seat tube.

Girardengo bicycles wear a second metal emblem affixed to the seat tube.

Garlatti did a good deal of contract work.

Torresini - checked a Torpado badge with a two fastener horizontal arrangement and it is greater than 40mm.  As mentioned earlier, Torresini serials are on the seat tube, in any event.

Perhaps we can hear from master frame detective @MauriceMoss to advance this discussion.  

Outcome likely has two possibilities -

a) Maurice will recognise it

b) it shall remain unknown

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## juvela (Mar 21, 2019)

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Reamer -

the one used here for seat tubes is a Chadwick Nr. 28 rated 1"-1 1/8"

these do not have letter sizes

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Chris wrote frame looks to him as though plating original and there was painting over it.  For corroboration of this suggestion you could check steerer, head tube interior and shell interior for any paint traces.

BTW - does steerer bear any markings?

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Reasoning behind pillar size inquiry -

It was common at this time for Italian manufacturers to offer a midliner model which had the 1010 ends set, & Campag Gran Sport gear ensemble paired with Magistroni cottered chainset and Magistroni headset.  Such a machine would be built of Falck (for example) and have a pillar size in the range of 26.0mm and 26.4mm.  So your pillar size measured is within reason there.

HOWEVER - since cycle fitted with Campag Record chainset it seems likely a top-of-the-line  professional model.  For such a model one would expect db tubing and a pillar size of 27.0mm or 27.2mm.

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## MauriceMoss (Mar 22, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Perhaps we can hear from master frame detective @MauriceMoss to advance this discussion.
> 
> ...





Oh boy, the pressure! 

Sadly, I must disappoint. As @juvela mentioned, this is indeed going to be a needle-in-a-haystack kind of a thing.  Everyone and their _mamma _used these lugs back in the day. Finding who made this particular frame will be tough.

Looking at the stay ends made me think *Gloria *but then I think they stamped their numbers on the back of the seat lug (plus were normally 6 digits?).

I'd say the most common placement of frame numbers during this period was on the seat lug (back or side) and seat tube. Of the brands mentioned earlier, Olmo I think also stamped side and back of the seat lug, and had a format that started with a letter followed by 3-4 numbers.

The pointy stay ends and the frame number location might be the least generic aspects here, but I'm not sure how much they can advance the ID search. One other thing that's somewhat interesting are those cable stops on the top tube. Normally, on frames I've seen, there are either no stops, they are on the underside of the top tube or the cables are routed internally. Unless, those were added later, which is always possible.

Too bad about the seat stay.


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## juvela (Mar 23, 2019)

MauriceMoss said:


> Oh boy, the pressure!
> 
> Sadly, I must disappoint. As @juvela mentioned, this is indeed going to be a needle-in-a-haystack kind of a thing.  Everyone and their _mamma _used these lugs back in the day. Finding who made this particular frame will be tough.
> 
> ...




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Thanks so much for your thoughts Maurice!  

The only (slighlty) distinctive feature I could notice on the frame was the housing stops on the top tube.  However, since we can not be sure as to whether the plating is original or post manufacture we cannot be sure if these stops are original.

wrt Olmo serials -

yes indeed they are on the seat lug at this era and yes the format is LNNN (letter, number, number, number).

Discussed in detail by the illustrious Peter Brueggeman at his Olmo web site -

http://www.peterbrueggeman.com/cr/catalogues/olmo-ssn.htm

Am an owner of four Olmo from around this time so have a spot of familiaritude.  

Thank you again Maurice.


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## mickalica (Oct 6, 2020)

hi, i know it is a bit late, found your post yesterday looking for id of another bike, but you are having probably cimatti. i have same frame with headbadge. everything is same, mine is having inner routing in toptube. not very often to find this bikes, had simplex, cottered cranks, centerpullers, a bit mixed parts, seat post itm. pump holders same design, lugs


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## juvela (Oct 6, 2020)

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donmac70 -

in the event it may be of interest replica Cimatti transfer sets are available here:



			Vintage Transfers
		


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