# Morrow Hubs



## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Feb 27, 2015)

So just throwing this out there... Morrow Hubs are the best hands down... you new departure guys will see the light one day... with your clicking popping squealing free wheeling nut cracking stops along with the 2 speed set ups that granted look cool but only sometimes work like they were intended... you'll get tired of it and come to the dark side and I know what you will say "man but have you ridden a rebuilt ND with new disks?.. and i will say yes, but have YOU ridden a rebuilt morrow? .. I've turned a few on to the awesome power of a finely tuned morrow. .. they may stay in the shadows but they know the truth when it comes to coaster brakes.... there is a reason they were an upgrade and they cost more... sturdy and sure... I don't always ride coaster but when I do I ride morrow. ..... brake sure my friends haha


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## tripple3 (Feb 27, 2015)

*Smooth....*

My best riding hubs are Morrow. I like that they date stamped their hub shell too as an added bonus.


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## catfish (Feb 27, 2015)

I disagree. New Departure model D is my hub of choice.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Feb 27, 2015)

catfish said:


> I disagree. New Departure model D is my hub of choice.



I would have assumed the musselman suicide would have been you top choice?


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## Wheeled Relics (Feb 27, 2015)

Looking for an 11tooth Morrow sprocket Please pm mez. Also need morrow parts hubs. Pm me please


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Feb 27, 2015)

Wheeled Relics said:


> Looking for an 11tooth Morrow sprocket Please pm mez. Also need morrow parts hubs. Pm me please



Fellow believer,  I'm sure someone in cabeland has what you need..keep the faith brother


Wheeled Relics said:


> Looking for an 11tooth Morrow sprocket Please pm mez. Also need morrow parts hubs. Pm me please


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## catfish (Feb 27, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> I would have assumed the musselman suicide would have been you top choice?




Very close second.


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## 2jakes (Feb 27, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> So just throwing this out there... Morrow Hubs are the best .... there is a reason they were an upgrade and they cost more... sturdy and sure... I don't always ride coaster but when I do I ride morrow. ..... brake sure my friends haha




Ok...I'm sold !




I have this "Morrow" that goes to an Iver Johnson from the 1920s whose wheels were wood
rim 28" size.
Any idea what modern size wheel/tires I can use to laced this Morrow that will fit the frame ?
I'm not looking to duplicate with tubeless tires or wheels.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Feb 27, 2015)

That's one sexy morrow hub...meow


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## 2jakes (Feb 27, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> That's one sexy morrow hub...meow




I found out from the seller that this bike was kept in storage & not abused. The paint is
 worn & has faded with time. 
But those hubs are really nice & in great "purring" shape !


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## rollfaster (Feb 27, 2015)

Love morrow hubs, also new departure, mussleman and bendix when they are freshly rebuilt or in good working order. But I would agree that the morrow hub is a plus because of the date code stampings. Rob.


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## rustjunkie (Feb 27, 2015)

Some say the reason Morrow used date codes was so they could refuse to replace the shells when the braking surface wore out: Sorry! out of warranty!
New Departure needed no such date coding.


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## 2jakes (Feb 27, 2015)

rollfaster said:


> Love morrow hubs, also new departure, mussleman and bendix when they are freshly rebuilt or in good working order. But I would agree that the morrow hub is a plus because of the date code stampings. Rob.




My Morrow has the date stamping as the one posted in #1 thread illustration.




Is this a "patent" date for the hub only or for the bike as well ?

Thanks.


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## okozzy (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm with Obi-Wan on this one, Morrows work flawlessly in my book.


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## Wheeled Relics (Feb 27, 2015)

I believe ! (shaking and speaking in morrow)



Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Fellow believer,  I'm sure someone in cabeland has what you need..keep the faith brother


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Feb 27, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> Some say the reason Morrow used date codes was so they could refuse to replace the shells when the braking surface wore out: Sorry! out of warranty!
> New Departure needed no such date coding.



Except I see more ND shells wore out then morrow .. That's where the I'm pedaling then let off pop comes from... shell wore out and driver cone goes in deep then gets cack eyed in thar cause of the xtra room so to speak... pop pop goes the weasel the weasel....


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## filmonger (Feb 28, 2015)

I will be listing a Morrow hub part donor or rebuild in the for sale section later today. Just an FYI for The Morrow guys.


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## catfish (Feb 28, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Except I see more ND shells wore out then morrow




Most likely because there were so many more New Departure hubs in service.


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## rustjunkie (Feb 28, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Except I see more ND shells wore out then morrow .. That's where the I'm pedaling then let off pop comes from... shell wore out and driver cone goes in deep then gets cack eyed in thar cause of the xtra room so to speak... pop pop goes the weasel the weasel....




I know the "pop" you're talking about when going from drive to coast, but am not sure this is caused by wear to the shell. The design prevents the clutch sleeve from misaligning with the drive surface of the hub shell: it's always at a right angle because it is attached to the worm gear on the driver, which is held at a right angle to the shell by the bearings and axle. Also, the shell is hardened, don't think the clutch sleeve is though, so if this is a wear issue, it most likely comes from wear to the sleeve. 
I've fixed this problem on other hubs, will see if the same remedy works on the one snapper here, will report back.


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## cyclingday (Feb 28, 2015)

I'm partial to New Departure. They have the best functioning brake, the best availability of nos replacement parts, two and three speed conversion kits that work really well if set up properly.
And a superior front brake option in the model WD.
Once the hubshell and the shoe is worn out on a Morrow, your kind of screwed.  I've never seen a model D New Departure that couldn't be rebuilt.
Even Memory Lane was selling refurbished New Departure model D hubs. I don't recall them ever selling refurbished Morrows.


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## catfish (Feb 28, 2015)

cyclingday said:


> I'm partial to New Departure. They have the best functioning brake, the best availability of nos replacement parts, two and three speed conversion kits that work really well if set up properly.
> And a superior front brake option in the model WD.
> Once the hubshell and the shoe is worn out on a Morrow, your kind of screwed.  I've never seen a model D New Departure that couldn't be rebuilt.
> Even Memory Lane was selling refurbished New Departure model D hubs. I don't recall them ever selling refurbished Morrows.




Great points! New Departure all the way!!!!


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## rustjunkie (Feb 28, 2015)

Problem solved 

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...from-Drive-to-Coast-Brake&p=430712#post430712


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## tripple3 (Feb 28, 2015)

*I Ride 'em all....too*

I agree with this until I rebuilt a Morrow with NOS parts (which are possible to find right here on the CABE). I have also done the new discs and clip of ND and it works like new! But not like a Morrow. There are Morrow hubs that I have ridden and were as smooth as half inch pitch. ND is more available; I like to ride My Morrow. 
I have a Mussleman wheel set that I'm partial to that is still running smooth years later.



cyclingday said:


> I'm partial to New Departure. They have the best functioning brake, the best availability of nos replacement parts, two and three speed conversion kits that work really well if set up properly.
> And a superior front brake option in the model WD.
> Once the hubshell and the shoe is worn out on a Morrow, your kind of screwed.  I've never seen a model D New Departure that couldn't be rebuilt.
> Even Memory Lane was selling refurbished New Departure model D hubs. I don't recall them ever selling refurbished Morrows.


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## rustjunkie (Feb 28, 2015)

I've not ridden nearly as many Morrow as ND, but the problem I saw with each of them was the lag or "dead space" between coast/brake and drive. Dangerous when standing up. Some folks have said this can be adjusted but I've never seen a "how to". I fiddled with one a while back but lost interest....went for a ride on a D instead


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## Wheeled Relics (Feb 28, 2015)

transfer spring vs keyed axle assembly


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## rustjunkie (Feb 28, 2015)

Wheeled Relics said:


> transfer spring vs keyed axle assembly




So I've heard.
Care to elaborate? Step-by-step?


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## old hotrod (Feb 28, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> I've not ridden nearly as many Morrow as ND, but the problem I saw with each of them was the lag or "dead space" between coast/brake and drive. Dangerous when standing up. Some folks have said this can be adjusted but I've never seen a "how to". I fiddled with one a while back but lost interest....went for a ride on a D instead




I found that a worn drum causes this, lag gets longer and braking gets worse as the braking surface wears...install NOS brake drum and good to go...too often I have found that people think rebuilt and regrease are the same. With ND, replace the clutch cone and transfer spring with discs and bearings (and any worn bearing surface) and they are good as new most of the time. With Morrow, replace brake drum bearings and bearing surfaces and they are great...


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## ZOO (Feb 28, 2015)

Wheeled Relics said:


> transfer spring vs keyed axle assembly






rustjunkie said:


> So I've heard.
> Care to elaborate? Step-by-step?



Yes, elaborate please.


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## 46powerwagon (Feb 28, 2015)

I agree with Hotrod....More to it than clean and grease.

Gary


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## cyclingday (Feb 28, 2015)

New Departure model D replacement of the clutch/retarder spring and keyed axle.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wheeled Relics (Feb 28, 2015)

I do have an 11tooth new departure sprocket / hub I will trade towards/across for a 11tooth morrow


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## Wheeled Relics (Feb 28, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> So I've heard.
> Care to elaborate? Step-by-step?




Yes. Two things; when they work, and when they don't work. 

New Departure D's: I find when getting ND hubs in that "don't work" right they have often been assembled incorrectly via not all the discs being locked into the hub; the extra few left out hide under the coaster arm shield, one two or three discs are not thick enough to keep from closing the hub up, but create a gap inside the hub that results in stripping out the transfer spring when the brake is used under a load. This results in grinding slipperybrakes at best, or no brakes at worst. Absolutely the worst way this can happen is in an instant, working a few times and then suddenly the clip on the transfer spring gets folded over (stripped) when you are applying the brakes. If your careful assembling, making sure all the discs make it into the slots, this doesn't happen; I ruined a pair of shoes trusting a set of wheels bought off a forum, (only made that mistake once!) which is how I had the above scenario play out. 

Morrow hubs: after having a couple hubs that were problematic with drive engagement and brakes I really started researching where these problems come from, the axle assemblies I had read are "tricky" to get adjusted correctly, but what Ive found is this is true only if they are assembled, yes, incorrectly. After getting ahold of the eclipse documentation from Dave Marko, and reading it carefully, I discovered that if the keyed axle assembly on the drive side is not assembled correctly (ie keyed/slotted drive engagement assembly screwed onto the axle together) you get symptoms such as no drive engagement or too much play ( full rotation etc) before brakes engage. There seems to be some mis understanding about the keyed parts needing "adjustment", or a gap between the key and slot that from my experience is incorrect, there is absolutely no adjustment to these parts what so ever, they need to be screwed onto the axle together, the spring between the two fully depressed. If they are screwed on separately, this results in a gap, that ends up causing problems with engaging. When the axle assembly is correct, ie no gap and screwed on as one unit, I have had zero problems. 

When both hubs work right, they both work well in my opinion, the ND will over heat easier because of the nature of the discs surfaces and geometry, the morrow is relatively uneffected by the same degree of heat. also each hub has its own degree of movementde between drive engagement and braking; but this is about 120 degrees for the morrow vs 45 degrees for the ND. This is enough of a difference for some people to denounce the Morrow. The ND model A I have here is approx 22deg between actions with a very positive spring action to the last half of the braking.


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## tripple3 (Mar 3, 2015)

I agree about the "dead space" if you are Standing on your pedals. I don't ride my vintage bikes that way very often.... I will take a N.D. next time I charge some hills.
The "Braking" issue is taken care of the way old hotrod said. Morrow hubs just seem smoother to me.



rustjunkie said:


> I've not ridden nearly as many Morrow as ND, but the problem I saw with each of them was the lag or "dead space" between coast/brake and drive. Dangerous when standing up. Some folks have said this can be adjusted but I've never seen a "how to". I fiddled with one a while back but lost interest....went for a ride on a D instead






old hotrod said:


> I found that a worn drum causes this, lag gets longer and braking gets worse as the braking surface wears...install NOS brake drum and good to go...too often I have found that people think rebuilt and regrease are the same. With ND, replace the clutch cone and transfer spring with discs and bearings (and any worn bearing surface) and they are good as new most of the time. With Morrow, replace brake drum bearings and bearing surfaces and they are great...


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## rustjunkie (Mar 3, 2015)

tripple3 said:


> Morrow hubs just seem smoother to me.




I've always liked the quality of the races and precision of machining on Morrow. 
A larger hub shell = larger diameter race = more bearings to take up the load = (theoretically) smoother rolling.


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## looneymatthew (Mar 3, 2015)

*Morrow*

Rebuilds 100% .N.O.S MORROW
I believe in both brands but have become
more of a Morrow fan.


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## filmonger (Mar 3, 2015)

Wooooow... Nice set up!


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## Wheeled Relics (Mar 3, 2015)

looneymatthew I sent you a PM ~ beautiful work!


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## UncleFester (Apr 2, 2015)

Default 



0 




 Nice!!	  


looneymatthew I sent you a PM Thumbs Up!


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## Balloonoob (Sep 16, 2020)

Wheeled Relics said:


> Yes. Two things; when they work, and when they don't work.
> 
> New Departure D's: I find when getting ND hubs in that "don't work" right they have often been assembled incorrectly via not all the discs being locked into the hub; the extra few left out hide under the coaster arm shield, one two or three discs are not thick enough to keep from closing the hub up, but create a gap inside the hub that results in stripping out the transfer spring when the brake is used under a load. This results in grinding slipperybrakes at best, or no brakes at worst. Absolutely the worst way this can happen is in an instant, working a few times and then suddenly the clip on the transfer spring gets folded over (stripped) when you are applying the brakes. If your careful assembling, making sure all the discs make it into the slots, this doesn't happen; I ruined a pair of shoes trusting a set of wheels bought off a forum, (only made that mistake once!) which is how I had the above scenario play out.
> 
> ...



120 degrees between drive engagement and braking? This is normal? I thought something was wrong and needed adjustment. I'm thinking the wheel hadn't been ridden in years.... After a couple days of riding the engagement improved slightly on its own... I swear it! BTW The braking on my morrow is no better than ND model d; it seems a bit worse. I've read on rrb this regarding engagement https://ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/morrow-hub-slips-or-has-too-much-play-help.58286/. But then post 27 of this thread says a worn brake drum is the culprit.    Maybe just tearing it open regreasing and putting back together (hopefully correctly - this is the hard part) will help. I have a ride on Oct 10th i really want to take my new bike on. I'm not really confident that if I take it apart I can get it back together and rolling by then so I will give it a try afterwards.


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## tripple3 (Sep 16, 2020)

Tear into it; it's not hard.


Balloonoob said:


> 120 degrees between drive engagement and braking? This is normal? I thought something was wrong and needed adjustment. I'm thinking the wheel hadn't been ridden in years.... After a couple days of riding the engagement improved slightly on its own... I swear it! BTW The braking on my morrow is no better than ND model d; it seems a bit worse. I've read on rrb this regarding engagement https://ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/morrow-hub-slips-or-has-too-much-play-help.58286/. But then post 27 of this thread says a worn brake drum is the culprit.    Maybe just tearing it open regreasing and putting back together (hopefully correctly - this is the hard part) will help. I have a ride on Oct 10th i really want to take my new bike on. I'm not really confident that if I take it apart I can get it back together and rolling by then so I will give it a try afterwards.









Getting new brake sleeve is best.
I still love riding Morrow best.
I have put in many miles since this thread started.


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## Autocycleplane (Sep 16, 2020)

Balloonoob said:


> 120 degrees between drive engagement and braking? This is normal? I thought something was wrong and needed adjustment. I'm thinking the wheel hadn't been ridden in years.... After a couple days of riding the engagement improved slightly on its own... I swear it! BTW The braking on my morrow is no better than ND model d; it seems a bit worse. I've read on rrb this regarding engagement https://ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/morrow-hub-slips-or-has-too-much-play-help.58286/. But then post 27 of this thread says a worn brake drum is the culprit.    Maybe just tearing it open regreasing and putting back together (hopefully correctly - this is the hard part) will help. I have a ride on Oct 10th i really want to take my new bike on. I'm not really confident that if I take it apart I can get it back together and rolling by then so I will give it a try afterwards.




Definitely tear into it now so you can get any needed parts in time for the 10th, you got this. I've built a ton of Morrow over the years. I've been grenading the guts about 2-3 times a year on my klunker - expensive but easy to fix.

Here are my tips for engagement degree issues:

1. As mentioned in the other thread and the how-to above make sure the bushing/cone assembly is installed on the axle correctly. You only have 2 (180 degrees) ways to put them together, just use whichever combo results in those 2 parts fitting together the tightest when assembled on the axle. I've found that should give the proper clearance shown above without the need to measure. After you do it once correctly you get the hang of it.

1a. If you have everything cleaned up and nothing is broken you might as well quickly (see axle tip below) reassemble without grease (light oil OK) and check your drive/brake engagement angle. If acceptable then after step 2 it's usually fine to just reassemble with grease and new ball bearings in the bearing retainers and party on.

2. Inspect your clutch rings - are the knurls on the outside worn down? If so replace.

3. Inspect your expanders on either end of the brake sleeve. Are the "V" shaped areas where the surfaces mate to the sleeve or rings worn/grooved? If so replace.

4. Lastly inspect the brake sleeve, the big money item. Check the thickness of the brass shoe material against a NOS unit if possible or check interwebs for photos to compare. Check the inside areas where the expanders sit and work. I can get pretty good use out of these units as long as they don't overheat and crack in two, but super thin brass shoe material is obviously gonna cause some issues.

5. I've seen a few really worn hub shells. If a fresh sleeve, expanders, and clutch rings with proper assembly fixes some but not all of the problem then your shell is likely a bit toasty.

The point of all of this being that there are a bunch of places for wear that can all add up to a ton of pedal throw between go and no-go. Sometimes you have to replace more than one part to get things working better, or even all of it (brake sleeve, expanders, and clutch rings) to make it like new again.

Couple of other tips:

- Fresh ball bearings make a huge difference in ride quality. Clean up and reuse the old retainers, pop those new 1/4" balls in and feel the magic.

- Life is too short to fight a crappy axle more than once on disassembly. If the threads are shot or it is at all bent then just replace it. Better yet, buy 3 or 4 at a time so you can always use a fresh one whenever needed.

- Sometimes even NOS retarder washers and axle bushings don't really slide together that well and can bind a bit causing a "pop" between forward pedaling and braking. I like to file/emory the flats of the bushing just a bit to remove some of the machining ridges as well as any sharp edges of the washer to make sure they slide more smoothly. The retarder spring does wear out, if yours feels flimsy then replace.


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## Balloonoob (Sep 16, 2020)

Autocycleplane said:


> Definitely tear into it now so you can get any needed parts in time for the 10th, you got this. I've built a ton of Morrow over the years. I've been grenading the guts about 2-3 times a year on my klunker - expensive but easy to fix.
> 
> Here are my tips for engagement degree issues:
> 
> ...



Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to type this up. I believe that it will be helpful.


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