# 1938 Y Frame road master supreme Info



## npence (Dec 17, 2012)

I thought I would start this thread for everyone that wants to know more about these rare bikes. Ive only seen 4 of these bikes in pictures. Is there more out there or is that it. Please feel free to add pictures of these bikes and any info you may have on them. Thanks,


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## fordsnake (Dec 17, 2012)

I ditto Nate's request, t'd love to see what's out there on the 1938 Y frame?


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## cyclingday (Dec 17, 2012)

My 37 has threaded holes in the frame for the lantern battery cage mounts, then the tank mounts to the cage. It is a very unusual way to fit a tank, but it's solid and seems to work well.
 Does the 38 tank mount the same way, and if not, are the threaded holes still in the frame?
 The reason I ask, is that I wondered if the 38 frames were just run outs from the 37 production run.


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## fordsnake (Dec 17, 2012)

I believe the 1937 "bug eye" tank mounts differently then the 1938 "scimitar" tank? The battery cage is spot welded on my 38 tank.


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## militarymonark (Dec 17, 2012)

easywind has one


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## JAF/CO (Dec 17, 2012)

cyclingday

can you post pics of your bike
does it have this type of tank or is it the bug eyed 37




cyclingday said:


> My 37 has threaded holes in the frame for the lantern battery cage mounts, then the tank mounts to the cage. It is a very unusual way to fit a tank, but it's solid and seems to work well.
> Does the 38 tank mount the same way, and if not, are the threaded holes still in the frame?
> The reason I ask, is that I wondered if the 38 frames were just run outs from the 37 production run.


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## Nickinator (Dec 18, 2012)

I was watching this and suddenly it ended 6 days early 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROADMASTER-...=&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It was at 750.00 6 days and 6 hours last I checked it.


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## Bicycle Belle (Dec 18, 2012)

Nick I was watching this too and knew it would end early. My problem with the bike was all the incorrect parts. He did have the frame and tank however but from I could tell the chainguard, rear fender and wheels, were not correct. I am curious as to how much this sold for and hope the buyer knows he'll have a bit of hunting to do to complete it.


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## cyclingday (Dec 18, 2012)

JAF/CO said:


> cyclingday
> 
> can you post pics of your bike
> does it have this type of tank or is it the bug eyed 37




 Hi, Jim.
 It has the bug eye tank
 I've never taken the time to learn to post pics, but I'll send you some via e-mail, and if you like, you can post them on this thread.


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## fordsnake (Dec 18, 2012)

Bicycle Belle said:


> My problem with the bike was all the incorrect parts. He did have the frame and tank however but from I could tell the chainguard, rear fender and wheels, were not correct. I am curious as to how much this sold for and hope the buyer knows he'll have a bit of hunting to do to complete it.




It's obvious this bike has been cobbled together, but in my opinion all of the difficult parts that are needed to completely restore it, are there; the correct duck tail fenders w/ flat braces, the swan fork, the signature curved crank arms, and the elusive 4gill scimitar tank.   

This is one of the few bicycles where most parts on the boys and girls models are interchangeable. The skirt guard holes on the rear fender is an easy fix! The missing truss rod bracket is an easy find. The apple core badge, the chain guard, and the tail light parts...have been reproduced, making it an easy restoration.


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## npence (Dec 18, 2012)

I agree with fordsnake should be a fairly easy restoration. I have never seen one so complete for sale before. Find the few missing parts get the chrome and paint done and you have a killer bike this bike has been on my want list for some time.


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## npence (Dec 18, 2012)

Whoever cobbled it together knew what they where doing. Just seem to give up on the search.


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## fordsnake (Dec 18, 2012)

*Please share!*

C’mon guys, isn’t there some printed information, documents, advertising, consumer or dealer catalogs for the 1938 Roadmaster Supreme bike? 

I’m asking because there’s mystery around this bike, for instance if you look closely at the posted ad above, it appears that the chain guard has a vertical mount bracket on the rear? I didn’t think this particular chain guard appeared until after 1940? Yet the ad refers to it as “new design” for 1938. 

I’ve seen material for the ’37 & ’39 RMS models… but there’s zilch on the ’38!


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## catfish (Dec 18, 2012)

I know a guy who has four or five of them. And another guy with at least four.


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## fordsnake (Dec 18, 2012)

catfish said:


> I know a guy who has four or five of them. And another guy with at least four.




Yeah, but do you know any guys with any information on them?


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## npence (Dec 18, 2012)

Hey catfish have your friends take some pictures of there bikes so we can use them for reference. The only ones I see on the net is the cream and maroon ones. Is that the only color the came in.


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## JAF/CO (Dec 18, 2012)

here are some pics of cyclingday 37 supreme















cyclingday said:


> My 37 has threaded holes in the frame for the lantern battery cage mounts, then the tank mounts to the cage. It is a very unusual way to fit a tank, but it's solid and seems to work well.
> Does the 38 tank mount the same way, and if not, are the threaded holes still in the frame?
> The reason I ask, is that I wondered if the 38 frames were just run outs from the 37 production run.


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## eazywind (Dec 18, 2012)

*Nope*

Nope, Patrick. Mine has straight tubes and is a 1940........ Marc



militarymonark said:


> easywind has one


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## slick (Dec 18, 2012)

Nothing is sexier then a bug eye supreme. And i think that 4 gill from ebay can be polished up to look pretty darn good as is. Yes it was pieced together but restored bikes are too shiny. Trust me, i do paint and body work for a living.


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## old hotrod (Dec 18, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> C’mon guys, isn’t there some printed information, documents, advertising, consumer or dealer catalogs for the 1938 Roadmaster Supreme bike?
> 
> I’m asking because there’s mystery around this bike, for instance if you look closely at the posted ad above, it appears that the chain guard has a vertical mount bracket on the rear? I didn’t think this particular chain guard appeared until after 1940? Yet the ad refers to it as “new design” for 1938.
> 
> I’ve seen material for the ’37 & ’39 RMS models… but there’s zilch on the ’38!




Well, the good news is I have a copy of the 38 catalog...bad news, it is a poor photocopy and I really don't think it will scan with enough detail to see anything...that said, all of the illustrations of the 38 Supreme (men's and lady's) show the long chainguard while the deluxe 3rib tank bike has the vertical bracket chainguard-same with the 1937 catalog copies I have. I also have a photocopy of a march 1938 Cleveland Welding ad from _The American Bicyclist _again showing the long guard. 
Fordsnake, the copies I have show the supported chainguard in 1937 unless there are subtle differences that I cannot see on the copies...
Also, the pics of the 40 Supreme have a different chainguard, not as long as the earlier styles and still non supported but changed to follow the curve of the later frame...


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## dfa242 (Dec 19, 2012)

JAF/CO said:


> here are some pics of cyclingday 37 supreme
> 
> Wow - great color on a great bike!!


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## npence (Dec 21, 2012)

I can't believe this is all there are. And isn't any literature about these gems.


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## JAF/CO (Dec 21, 2012)

*this is for old hot rod*

scan a couple of pages and let see how bad they are

THANKS




old hotrod said:


> Well, the good news is I have a copy of the 38 catalog...bad news, it is a poor photocopy and I really don't think it will scan with enough detail to see anything...that said, all of the illustrations of the 38 Supreme (men's and lady's) show the long chainguard while the deluxe 3rib tank bike has the vertical bracket chainguard-same with the 1937 catalog copies I have. I also have a photocopy of a march 1938 Cleveland Welding ad from _The American Bicyclist _again showing the long guard.
> Fordsnake, the copies I have show the supported chainguard in 1937 unless there are subtle differences that I cannot see on the copies...
> Also, the pics of the 40 Supreme have a different chainguard, not as long as the earlier styles and still non supported but changed to follow the curve of the later frame...


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## npence (Dec 21, 2012)

The two pics I found the bikes have single delta rays but the catalog page show the twin delta rays. What is up with that


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## old hotrod (Dec 21, 2012)

JAF/CO said:


> scan a couple of pages and let see how bad they are
> 
> THANKS




Jim, no scanner and a little busy with the holidays...remind me if you don't see me post anything in the next week or so...


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## militarymonark (Dec 21, 2012)

eazywind said:


> Nope, Patrick. Mine has straight tubes and is a 1940........ Marc




Didn't know 4 gills had 2 different frames I just learned something new


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## Adamtinkerer (Dec 22, 2012)

I'm surprised there's no comment from the guy who has this bike in his usename-rms37!!


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## cyclingday (Dec 22, 2012)

Phil is the Rhodes-Master.
 Look for, he cannot be seen.
Listen for, he cannot be heard.
It is said, that he can ride through walls.
When you can snatch a ball bearing from his hand, only then, will he divulge his vast array of information pertaining to the mysterious 1938 Four Gill Roadmaster Supreme.


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## slick (Dec 22, 2012)

Here are some pictures of some Supremes for you guys.


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## slick (Dec 22, 2012)

Here are some 4 gills.....


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## npence (Dec 22, 2012)

Note that none of the 4 gill bikes have the Y frame. I know the 4 gill straight seat tube bikes are rare but how rare are the Y frame 4 gills and where is the old articles about these bikes.


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## fordsnake (Dec 22, 2012)

Chris, thanks for sharing but none of your pics are *1938 "Y" frames*. That's why Nate started this thread...there's very little information or photos out there on this one year CWC bike.


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## PJOMARRON (Dec 22, 2012)

*Help!!!!!!*

*Hey I am trying to find out about a Columbia stationary bike I have and I was referred to this website for help but I sadly don't even know how to start a new post can someone be kind enough to show me the ropes as I have a few questions I would like to ask  ​*


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## cyclingday (Dec 22, 2012)

slick said:


> Here are some pictures of some Supremes for you guys.




 That red 37, is pretty sweet! Fork lock and all.
 I knew about the og.paint blue one and my og.paint two tone green, but I have not seen that red one before.
 So, that makes three original paint 37s known to exist.
 Are there anymore?


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## fordsnake (Dec 22, 2012)

PJOMARRON said:


> *I sadly don't even know how to start a new post can someone be kind enough to show me the ropes as I have a few questions I would like to ask  ​*





Welcome to the CABE! Regarding your questions...click on FORUM at the top of the menu. Find a heading close to your topic,i.e., model, year, make, etc, and post your question....it's that easy.


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## Buster1 (Dec 22, 2012)

Okay, _enough_! You guys are teasing me too much with this thread! I just want to know how to get a Supreme in my garage.

Show offs.


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## PJOMARRON (Dec 22, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> Welcome to the CABE! Regarding your questions...click on FORUM at the top of the menu. Find a heading close to your topic,i.e., model, year, make, etc, and post your question....it's that easy.




Thanks so much I finally got it!!!


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## fordsnake (Dec 22, 2012)

cyclingday said:


> Are there anymore 37s known to exist?




If you follow the many previous posts regarding the RMS Supremes, you'll see there's much discussions about the 1937 "bug eye" RMS. Also within those posts you'll see there's very little mentioning of the 1938 "Y" frame. This post is an attempt to solicit and contribute information on the 1938 SUPREMES!!!


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## cyclingday (Dec 22, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> If you follow the many previous posts regarding the RMS Supremes, you'll see there's much discussions about the 1937 "bug eye" RMS. Also within those posts you'll see there's very little mentioning of the 1938 "Y" frame. This post is an attempt to solicit and contribute information on the 1938 SUPREMES!!!




 Yeah, I got it! But since the 38 is just a cheaper watered down version of the 37, I just thought I'd solicit any additional info on either the 37 or the 38.
 I know there are quite a few re painted 38s and a few re painted 37s.
 I would like to know, if there is an accurate count of the unrestored ones of either year out there. I suspect that the numbers are extremely low. especially for the 37s.


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## cyclingday (Dec 22, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> Chris, thanks for sharing but none of your pics are *1938 "Y" frames*. That's why Nate started this thread...there's very little information or photos out there on this one year CWC bike.




 The red frame/silver tank bike in the back of the group photo is a "Y" frame 38 Supreme.


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## scrubbinrims (Dec 22, 2012)

Cheaper, watered down version? Ouch!
I think it is fair to draw comparisions like that in the same model year, but the bikes in comparison were BOTH top of the line in their respective years.
Chris


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## cyclingday (Dec 22, 2012)

Ok, maybe I was a little harsh, but I think there is a reason, that the 37 tank was only made for one year.
 It is a very complex tank, and is unlike anything else I have seen except for maybe the Aerocycle tank.
 The 38 tank is made exactly like all of the other clamshell style tanks from every other manufacturer. Simple, clean and much cheaper to produce.


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## JAF/CO (Dec 22, 2012)

1937 and 1938 bug eye, yes the bug eye was sold in 1938 also
i don't know if the were sold as roadmasters  but for sure by other retailers

i have my count of the bug eye at about 15 to 20 give or take

the 1938 rms 4 gill  with the y frame my count is about 3

the 4 gill tank was used 1938 to 1939 maybe into 1940

any other pics of 1938 4 gill supreme would be some help or information

THANKS


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## JAF/CO (Dec 22, 2012)

as for a complex tank the 1937 roadmaster supreme is that
hard take on and off , hard to change batteries, and bulbs


but there are tanks buy other manufacturers just as complex


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## npence (Dec 23, 2012)

Thanks for all the great info JAF/CO. And I agree with you by my little research I've seen a lot more bug eye tanks then the 4 gill w/y frame bikes that is why I started this thread to see if I could pull some out of the wood work to get a better count. And don't agree with the 38 being a cheaper version of the bug eye tank just a different design and I like them both the same. They both have cool features about them.


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## cyclingday (Dec 23, 2012)

When the numbers for bikes like these get that low, there is always the temptation for collectors to build bikes trying to create that all elusive gem that has become so rare and desireable.
Hence the prewar Schwinn Autocycle. There are way more parts built bikes floating around than factory originals. This is why this hobby has shifted over the years from the emphasis of restored to original condition.
Once a bike has been restored, you have to question the validity of its parts and their originality, and you can pretty much be sure that it is a parts built bike that never existed.
Just look at the sales results of restored ( and I mean 100 point concourse condition restored) vs. decent original condition. Even though an accurately restored bike can be outstanding in its detail and presentability. It will almost never bring as much interest as the bone stock original.

Since the 38 four gill tank was produced for three years, I would expect there to be more parts built restored 38s floating around.  

This is why I was interested in the numbers of ORIGINAL CONDITION bikes of either year. There have been fiberglass bug eye tanks made. those bikes don't count. there have been put together four gill bikes made from converted straight tube frames. those bikes don't count either. 

How many (ORIGINAL PAINT/CONDITION) 1937 & 1938 "Y" frame type CWC Roadmaster Supremes are there in existence?

If there are 15 to 20 ORIGINAL CONDITION 37s, then where are they?   So far I have only seen pictures of 3  

By its nature, there should be way more 38s around than 37s, unless the 38 was a phase out of the "Y" frame bikes, and that is why you see so many more of the later straight tube frames with the four gill tanks.

It could be, that they were just running out the 37 frames by putting the four gill tanks on them until supplies ran out, and then they converted production to the simpler and thus cheaper to build straight tube frames. 

It is pretty obvious that the emphasis was to simplify the design from what Onnie Mankki drew in 1936 to what they would eventually produce by 1940.

No disrespect to the 38 Supremes, it is a very cool bike in its own right, and in someways, it has much more mass appeal than the bug eye. Afterall, who wants to be seen riding a bike affectionately known as the Bug Eye?


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## Nickinator (Dec 23, 2012)

It aslo could be that there are more bug eyed bikes because the tanks and frames were reproduced. phil told me its kind of like shelby cobras they reproduced more they were made


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## dfa242 (Dec 23, 2012)

cyclingday said:


> ...who wants to be seen riding a bike affectionately known as the Bug Eye?




Well, I sure do!


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## npence (Dec 23, 2012)

I agree restored bikes dont bring the money like nice originals  do. But a restored bike does bring more when the bike is less the 5 out of 10. 

There are some y frames built out of girls frames too and they did repop the bug eye out of metal also years ago. I feel if you take a picture of the bike before you restore it helps on the resell of the item. So you can see that was an original bike before restoration.


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## fordsnake (Dec 23, 2012)

cyclingday said:


> When the numbers for bikes like these get that low, there is always the temptation for collectors to build bikes trying to create that all elusive gem




So where are all of these 1938 "tribute" RMS bikes? This thread should be flooded with photographs of fabricated fakes, replicas or whatever you choose to call them! Like you said, “there should be way more 38s around than 37s”...but that doesn’t seem to be the fact! 

If Nate was proposing a count of unmolested originals, it went right over my head. I thought this thread was to get a handle on the scarcity of the 1938’s RMS! An invitation for anyone with documented information:dealer or consumer catalogs, advertisements, or photographs of the 1938 CWC Supreme to share publicly. Not a comparison of unmolested vs restored, or desirability of the 1937 vs the ’38 Supreme.


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## fordsnake (Dec 23, 2012)

Cyclingday raised an interesting point about originality vs restoration. It got me thinking about what constitutes originality? 









For instance this 38 Supreme has obviously been assembled with donor parts. All of the parts, with the exception of the girls rear fender and the late model chain guard, everything else looks period correct. They’re not “repop,” parts...they’re original factory parts to the Supreme model!

Once this bike is painted, and done correctly, no one will ever know that it was cobbled together unless the owner reveals it!

My question to you, would you ostracize this bike, call it a fake because it has original factory parts but from a donor bike/s?


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## npence (Dec 23, 2012)

I would not call it a fake it does have an original frame can tell it had the supreme apple core badge. The bike just lost some parts over the years and now are being replaced but with parts from another bike that has last its parts over the years. Just like having a collectible car and wrecking it and replace those parts with original arts to make it like new again. 

Now if the frame was fab out a ladies bike and made to look like the boys or had repop parts then I would call it a fake since it never ever came from the factory looking like that.


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## Buster1 (Dec 23, 2012)

That bike falls into category 2 on my Buster-meter.

On a side note, why don't we start standardizing the hobby with some kind of code system?

1:  totally OG, survivor
2:  original-correct, some correct parts from doners
3:  original-incorrect, some incorrect parts from doners
4:  original-repop, some correct repop parts
5:  franken-bike

Notice this bears no weight on restored or not (doesn't matter in the categories), and anything below original-repop would be "un-original" or Franken.


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## fordsnake (Dec 23, 2012)

npence said:


> If the frame was fab out a ladies bike and made to look like the boys or had repop parts then I would call it a fake since it never ever came from the factory looking like that.




In the auto industry, cars are given ID numbers stamped into the body; indicating color, month & year, city of assembly, production number, etc. A restorer can easily tell if parts are a forgery...just by matching the corresponding stamped numbers on every sheet metal part on the car. If the numbers don’t match, it quickly tells the restorer if the part has been replaced.

Not so with bicycles…I don’t think the CWC serial numbers tells if a bike had a tank or tankless, the color of the bike, or if it were a boys or a girls?  So with that said, how would you ever know a bike was fabricated from a girls bike? What are the obvious signs the discerning collector should look for?


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## Freqman1 (Dec 24, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> how would you ever know a bike was fabricated from a girls bike? What are the obvious signs the discerning collector should look for?




If its done right you probably couldn't. I've seen some cars brought back from not much more than a cowl and VIN. I think this is why most collectors will always prefer an original over a restored bike. V/r Shawn


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## npence (Dec 24, 2012)

There is probably no way to tell if it was a fabricated frame after it is restored. But I always take good picture of the bike before restoration then everyone knows what you started with. I would say if they can't show you pictures of the bike before restoration I would have my doubts. 

So who has one of these 38 4 gills with the yframe for sale I need one.


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## fat tire trader (Dec 25, 2012)

Nice Bike! It looks like it has a lot of original paint still. Even though the paint doesn't match, I'd leave the paint the way it is. You can only have original paint once and the mismatched paint on your bike tells a story. I hope that you and your family have a Merry Christmas!


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## Rivnut (Dec 25, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> In the auto industry, cars are given ID numbers stamped into the body; indicating color, month & year, city of assembly, production number, etc. A restorer can easily tell if parts are a forgery...just by matching the corresponding stamped numbers on every sheet metal part on the car. If the numbers don’t match, it quickly tells the restorer if the part has been replaced.
> 
> Not so with bicycles…I don’t think the CWC serial numbers tells if a bike had a tank or tankless, the color of the bike, or if it were a boys or a girls?  So with that said, how would you ever know a bike was fabricated from a girls bike? What are the obvious signs the discerning collector should look for?




I"ve been restoring 1st generation Buick Rivieras for quite a while now - bought my first one in 1973.  What is said about numbers stamped into the body (actually a plate attached to the body) only tells what modifications were made to the basic body to accomodate some options.  If a hole, tab, plate, etc was needed to run wiring, attach hardware, etc. it is part of the data plate.  If an option didn't need any tabs, holes, etc. and could be added during final assembly, there's no indicatioin of that on the plate.  I've added items such as AM/FM radios when only an AM was OE.  Tilt steering wheels, cornering lights, four note horns, cruise control, and many others DO NOT appear on the data plate.  

It's as easy to add options 50 years later than it was to install them on the assembly line and no one can tell the difference (unless there's a build sheet or window sticker available that matches the VIN.)  

When a car is in a wreck and a hood, fenders, wheels, bumper, and other goodies are taken from a donor car to make yours correct, is your car now a fake?

Ed


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## Boris (Dec 25, 2012)

Buster1 said:


> On a side note, why don't we start standardizing the hobby with some kind of code system?




This seems like a very good idea. Seems like this would be a good topic in "Discussions".


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## Buster1 (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks Dave, goin' there now.


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## old hotrod (Dec 31, 2012)

As previously discussed, I have uploaded the catalog pages I have to my Flickr site due to the size of the images...now the disclaimer, I received these photocopies along with many others from a former collector a few years ago so I do not have the originals nor all of the pages. It looks like this is the first 4 pages of the catalog as well as a couple of magazine pages. Funny how the Roadmaster add from The American Bicyclist was accidently reversed! Anyhow, this is all I have...has anyone checked with Jerry Peters to see if he has the original catalog? I suspect but cannot verify that these pages may have come from him or perhaps Leon Dixon at some point over the years...Dave

http://www.flickr.com/photos/david-quickpic/sets/72157632399813182/


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## npence (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for the catalog pics there is a lot of great info in there.


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## fordsnake (Dec 31, 2012)

Fantastic Dave, thanks for sharing!


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## JAF/CO (Dec 31, 2012)

dave thanks very much


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## old hotrod (Dec 31, 2012)

As is usually the case, just when I thought I had something figured out I get a stick in the spokes...Nate pointed out that he could not print or save directly from Flickr (I had never tried but good to know). So here are the rest...


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## old hotrod (Dec 31, 2012)

and a couple more...


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## old hotrod (Dec 31, 2012)

and the last of what I have...again, I would recommend trying Jerry to see if he has the originals, I am sure if he has, he will be able to get better copies than I have...


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## poolboy1 (Jan 1, 2013)

Very cool pictures.... Anybody no about that rear reflector name/brand or have one for sale?... Maybe some pictures??


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## fordsnake (Jan 1, 2013)

poolboy1 said:


> Very cool pictures.... Anybody no about that rear reflector name/brand or have one for sale?... Maybe some pictures??




Check with Jim@JAF/CO, jfkiller53@aol.com, he has them for sale.


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## fordsnake (Jan 1, 2013)

Here's something I picked up in Dave's '38 catalog that's rather enlightening about the yellow reflector headbadge. I was always told this badge wasn't introduced until 1939, and that the early CWC Supremes only carried the apple core badge. Au contraire per the catalog, it looks like the front reflector was available was introduced in 1938!  

So here's a question...the 37-38 apple core badges was prolific with multiple names...did the yellow reflector badge also have multiple names, or was it just exclusive to Roadmaster?


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## slick (Jan 1, 2013)

Karla's 38 girls supreme had a standard plain jane roadmaster badge on it so i decided to swap it out for a reflector badge i scored on ebay. As she sat and watched me unscrew it I told her I hope the screws loosen up easily. They came out rediculously smooth and to my surprise, there was an applecore outline under the standard badge totally obvious that someone snagged the badge off before i got the bike. Anyways, it has a reflector badge now and a repop reflector lense in it from Jim (Jaf/Co) and looks beautiful but the search is on for a applecore badge now. 

Carlton, that applecore badge collection photo just blew my mind! I have only seen 3-4 of those. The V8 Champion one is incredible! The search is on!


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## npence (Jan 1, 2013)

Slick I which I was the one that had that headbadge but it was missing when I bought the bike also. I would like to have the reflector headbadge since it was a special order in 1938. Still hopin to find out more about these bikes seems to be very few and far between.


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## fordsnake (Jan 1, 2013)

I forgot Patric shared this headbadge a few months ago...has anyone else come across other names?


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## fatbike (Jan 2, 2013)

I'm very surprised Phil Marshal has not commented on this thread, he knows these bike extremely well. And I know he has a red 37 Supreme for sure if not two and probably also a 38 4 gill Y CWC frame. Their cool frames and the designer designed them in mind with the bike to abbreviate CWC. The frame is shaped with the rear rack braces to look like a W. And wheels are supposed to resemble C.

 I know of someone else with a 37 Supreme and 38 4 gill. I wish I had photos to post of both of their collections.

The 37 I added photo of from Dave's site is my favorite, a tankless model, it shows the lines of the bike and I like that. The rarest original supreme that I have heard of.


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## JAF/CO (Jan 2, 2013)

*not all bug eye's are 37*

here is an old add for 1938 check it out


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## fordsnake (Jan 2, 2013)

A very cool find Jim, just one more piece to the puzzle!


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## Rust_Trader (Jan 2, 2013)

Hey Fordsnake do you know who owns the champion one? Trade for the ridewell?? 





fordsnake said:


> Here's something I picked up in Dave's '38 catalog that's rather enlightening about the yellow reflector headbadge. I was always told this badge wasn't introduced until 1939, and that the early CWC Supremes only carried the apple core badge. Au contraire per the catalog, it looks like the front reflector was available was introduced in 1938!
> 
> So here's a question...the 37-38 apple core badges was prolific with multiple names...did the yellow reflector badge also have multiple names, or was it just exclusive to Roadmaster?


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## fatbike (Jan 2, 2013)

Nice photos of some great Supreme bicycles. 




I know this not the topic but in the rare event someone happens to have a real four gill tank for a 1939-40 CWC bicycle I would be very happy to acquire one just like the rest of you who searching for one as well. Thanks


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## fordsnake (Jan 2, 2013)

Greens07 said:


> Hey Fordsnake do you know who owns the champion one? Trade for the ridewell??




Santi I haven't a clue who owns this impressive collection, I found it somewhere online.


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## fatbike (Jan 2, 2013)

Probably owned by Jerry Berg at one time or another. Maybe not...


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## ram.1950 (Jan 3, 2013)

Glad I happened onto this thread. I'm a CWC Fan on an extremely limited budget so most if not all of what I have seen in this thread is just a dream for me. Thanks a lot for sharing.  Robert


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## npence (Feb 4, 2015)

Thought I would bring this up from the dead to see if any new info is out there on the 1938 Roadmaster supreme 4gill yframe bikes.


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## Freqman1 (Feb 4, 2015)

This thread kinda got off track last time with the '37 RMS//39-41 Four Gills. While I have 11 real '37s accounted for there are very few '38s. The info Dave provided was great. What I would like to see are pics of '38 RMS that haven't been shown yet. This is one of the few bikes left on my 'hit' list. V/r Shawn


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## bentwoody66 (Feb 4, 2015)

Edit


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## cyclonecoaster.com (Feb 5, 2015)

Well I guess I didn't have my '38 the first time this thread was here ... so here it is for the revival of this thread ... it was a house painted bike that I used "Goof Off" on with loads of patience & probably close to a gallon of "Goof Off" along with a large bath towel or two - the tank is not from tis bike - so if someone has a matching tank for this LET ME KNOW - the red one is a great original paint tank was from a good friend & he had it in the grey cinder block color as long as he had it - I dig it & it found a good home -

The RMS rides incredibly & I am super happy with the final results as it sits - I rode this with Slick & the Rolling Relics up in San Fransisco in 2013 & down Lombard street - which for those who don't know - claims to be the windiest street in the world - a bit steep too ... I would have to say that it was the probably the 1st 1938 Roadmaster Supreme to ride down ... Lombard street too with such a low number produced & low amount of survivors around.... Ride Vintage - Frank


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## CWCMAN (Apr 7, 2016)

This thread is a bit aged but I will revive it for the sake of documentation on a single thread.
My contribution is my 1938 4 Gill "Y" frame Supreme. Formally owned by Bob Charnly.

Before




After


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## CWCMAN (Apr 7, 2016)

My 38 Supreme count is at 7

1 My 38 above maroon/cream
2 John maroon/cream
3 Frank maroon/cream
4 Larkin straw/burgundy
5 Nate under resto
6 Carlton primer
7 Original paint straw/burgundy color, unknown owner.


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## rickyd (Apr 7, 2016)

Never to late for these bikes


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## cyclingday (Apr 8, 2016)

What about this one?
I always considered this to be the yellow one.
Is this one considered to be one of the straw bikes already on the list?




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## CWCMAN (Apr 8, 2016)

Marty, that's #4 on the list Larkin Little ownes that one.

One of the nicest original paint 38's that I am aware of.


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## CWCMAN (Apr 8, 2016)

#7 on the list is also that same straw burgundy color, very nice original paint that rivals Larkins. 
Owner unknown by me


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## mrg (Apr 8, 2016)

Wow, i always though those straws were repaints they were so nice.


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## bicycle larry (Apr 8, 2016)

npence said:


> I thought I would start this thread for everyone that wants to know more about these rare bikes. Ive only seen 4 of these bikes in pictures. Is there more out there or is that it. Please feel free to add pictures of these bikes and any info you may have on them. Thanks,



 thanks nate for starting this posts . i reelly like the ones with the two head lights on the fenders . see you and your dad at memory lane .getting closer!!!!!!! from bicycle larry


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## npence (Apr 8, 2016)

I will be there Thursday morning with my dad. Wish my 4gill would be finished before Ann Arbor but don't think it will be. I'm going with the Blue white darts red pins. Original color that was on the frame. 


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## CWCMAN (Apr 8, 2016)

Love to see it when its finished Nate.


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## bicycle larry (Apr 8, 2016)

npence said:


> I will be there Thursday morning with my dad. Wish my 4gill would be finished before Ann Arbor but don't think it will be. I'm going with the Blue white darts red pins. Original color that was on the frame.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



 i will be there wednesday thursday and friday .i got my 3rib one reedy for paint .i am going with the yellow and red . blue and red is reel nice too i like that colour two .roadmaster and shelbys had some reel diff. coulours  from bicycle larry


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## Mark Mattei (Apr 27, 2016)




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## CWCMAN (Apr 27, 2016)

Very nice Mark,
I'd love to get a color scanned copy of that one. Or better yet, an original.


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## Freqman1 (Apr 27, 2016)

Put me in line for a copy! I've been looking for this for three years! Would also like to see a scan of the girls RMS. V/r Shawn


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## bricycle (Apr 27, 2016)

I dig the Maroon with Cream head!


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## John (Apr 27, 2016)




----------



## Mark Mattei (May 3, 2016)




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## Freqman1 (May 3, 2016)

Thanks for posting Mark! I'd gladly pay for a decent color copy of this catalog. V/r Shawn


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## JAF/CO (May 3, 2016)

Freqman1 said:


> Thanks for posting Mark! I'd gladly pay for a decent color copy of this catalog. V/r Shawn



Count me in also and thanks for posting it great info


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## CWCMAN (May 3, 2016)

Thanks Mark. 
I'm in for a copy as well.


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## slick (May 3, 2016)

Im in for a color photo copy as well. Thanks for posting.


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## 39zep (May 3, 2016)

If possible, I would like to acquire a copy. Thank you for making it available.


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## mrg (May 3, 2016)

Thanks for posting those great catalog pics, I will jump on this too, if and when copies become available


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## catfish (May 4, 2016)

Ill buy the original.


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## bentwoody66 (May 4, 2016)

I'll take one too!!!![emoji12] [emoji12] [emoji12] [emoji12]


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## CWCMAN (May 4, 2016)

His Original is NFS......I know, I asked


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## RPS (Jan 29, 2018)

Just picked this up at swap meet spent all day yesterday trying to figure out what I got!! not sure if its 37 41 serial # B19416 but frame looks older? HELP


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## rollfaster (Jan 29, 2018)

Now that is one incredible find!! Welcome to the Cabe. It’s a 37ish CWC built Roadmaster Supreme.
@CWCMAN @Freqman1


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## rusty.kirkpatrick (Jan 29, 2018)

Oh crap! Heck of a start, very valuable.


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## catfish (Jan 29, 2018)

Nice find! I'm sure you in box is filling up with offers. Good luck and welcome to the CABE !!!


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## CWCMAN (Jan 29, 2018)

Holy smokes!

Indeed a rare find. Welcome to the 1938 4 gill supreme club.

I as well as Shawn (freqman1) have been documenting the 37 and 38 supremes and have a registry of the known examples. I believe off the top of my head that yours would  bring the 38 count to 9.

You do however have a few wrong parts on board.

I'll send you a convo


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## Freqman1 (Jan 29, 2018)

Yep do a workout at lunch and miss all the good stuff! Congrats on a great find. A bike I believe worthy of a little more investigating. A very desirable bicycle. Curious as to what year the Cleveland tag is? V/r Shawn


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## RPS (Jan 29, 2018)

Thanks for the Info still can't understand why the frame looks 38 but the serial # is B19416? and parts look chrome plated the original owner was in his 80's said thats how he got it. Could it be in 1941 because of the war they used old stock to sell off bikes? Or his  memory was not that good?


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## rollfaster (Jan 29, 2018)

Pretty sure these were two year only. No expert at all though.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 29, 2018)

Are you saying you think that serial# is a ‘41 serial? A ‘41 CWC serial would be “H”, “J”, or “K”. V/r Shawn


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## RPS (Jan 29, 2018)

how doe find out what serial # is . Is there a web site ?


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## CWCMAN (Jan 29, 2018)

RPS said:


> Thanks for the Info still can't understand why the frame looks 38 but the serial # is B19416? and parts look chrome plated the original owner was in his 80's said that's how he got it. Could it be in 1941 because of the war they used old stock to sell off bikes? Or his memory was not that good?




The frame looks 1938 because it is. "B" serial numbers went into 1938 production. As far as the parts are concerned, I would guess that the previous owners memory may be faded a bit.

I sent you a convo with a catalog image of this model bike.


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## CWCMAN (Jan 29, 2018)

RPS said:


> how doe find out what serial # is . Is there a web site ?




I'm not sure the CWC serial number chart is on this website. Someone turned me onto it a few years ago.

You can try using the search engine on this site and see what comes up.


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## bikemonkey (Jan 29, 2018)

The rear end of that bike is kind of like...


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## fordmike65 (Jan 29, 2018)

bikemonkey said:


> The rear end of that bike is kind of like...
> 
> View attachment 745537



Huh??


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## CWCMAN (Jan 29, 2018)

I was thinking the same thing Mike


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## Freqman1 (Jan 29, 2018)

Its a '38. A '37 had a different tank and a '39 and later had a different frame. Pictured below are my '37, '38, and '40 (same frame as '39). V/r Shawn


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## RPS (Jan 29, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> Its a '38. A '37 had a different tank and a '39 and later had a different frame. Pictured below are my '37, '38, and '40 (same frame as '39). V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 745586 View attachment 745587 View attachment 745588



THANK YOU I THINK I WILLL PUT TIRES ON FOR NOWRIDE AND HAVE SOME FUN


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## CWCMAN (Jan 30, 2018)

RPS,
when your done having fun with the bike, shoot me a message, I'd be interested in buying it from you.


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## bikemonkey (Jan 30, 2018)

fordmike65 said:


> Huh??



Like sexy as can be....


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## JAF/CO (Jan 30, 2018)

I seen this on the web somewhere enjoy





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## JAF/CO (Jan 30, 2018)

The frame and crank arms look 37-38 ( B is 37 )
The rest look to be 40-41


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## cyclingday (Jan 30, 2018)

And just when things were starting to get a little slow around here. Lol!
It's a 38 for sure, don't let the serial numbers fool you.
My 37 Bug Eye has a 36 serial number.
They didn't build those models for the 1936 model year, so it's a 37 regardless of what the serial number says.
Congrats on the great find!
You knocked it out, in the bottom of the ninth on that one.


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## JAF/CO (Jan 30, 2018)

RPS
Could you post better pictures of the tank
Both side and the inside if you don’t mind
Thanks in advance 
And your bike is a great find an very interesting 
JAF/CO JIM 


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## Boris (Jan 30, 2018)

I was unaware that this chart had previously been published on the web, but since it has, credit goes to Phil Marshall for compiling it. It goes on to say, "Thank me or Blame me - Philip George Marshall". I choose to thank you Phil.


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## JAF/CO (Jan 30, 2018)

I my be wrong but I think Phil has been thanked more than once on this form.  But ok Thanks Phil
JAF/CO JIM 


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## Freqman1 (Jan 30, 2018)

I wouldn't take that chart as the gospel and think it may have been revised. The last one I have shows "A" going through the 1st qtr of '37 and "B" from the 1st qtr of '37 to 1st qtr of '38. Based on the numbers I've seen I tend to think the latter is more accurate. Not claiming to be some expert just what I've observed. V/r Shawn


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## RPS (Jan 30, 2018)

CWCMAN said:


> The frame looks 1938 because it is. "B" serial numbers went into 1938 production. As far as the parts are concerned, I would guess that the previous owners memory may be faded a bit.
> 
> I sent you a convo with a catalog image of this model bike.



What parts Look like they don't belong?


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## CWCMAN (Jan 30, 2018)

Fenders, truss rods, fork, chain guard, rack, seat, kick stand, pedals and maybe handle bars and stem. 

Basically, the frame, tank, head badge, crank and sprocket belong together.

You can look at the blue/cream 38 example that freqman1 posted above for comparison.


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## JAF/CO (Jan 30, 2018)

JAF/CO said:


> The frame and crank arms look 37-38 ( B is 37 )
> The rest look to be 40-41
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I may be wrong RPS post the pics I requested so I can confirm my thoughts 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CWCMAN (Jan 30, 2018)

Jim, both my 38 Supreme bikes are "B".

I think the chart is a good guide to use as I always refer to it, but it may not be 100% accurate.


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## CWCMAN (Jan 31, 2018)

This is my other 38 Supreme (minus the tank and duel Deltas). This is a "B" serial bike.

This bike is 100% correct with exception of the two parts it was missing when found. Red respray sometime in its life but all the painted parts have the original factory color of cream with maroon head underneath.

The bike even came equipped with the "Bluebird" grips........

As found


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## charnleybob (Feb 1, 2018)

JAF/CO said:


> I may be wrong RPS post the pics I requested so I can confirm my thoughts
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





I think your right.
Earlier frame, later parts.
Manufacturers didn't like throwing away frames just to make collectors in the future happy.
It's nice if bikes look like a catalog, but FFS, not everything leaving the factory did.
I would not start taking parts off that!


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## Freqman1 (Feb 1, 2018)

This would certainly fall into the category of anomaly! I agree a little more research before any rash decisions are made. Larkin's bike with the single Delta isn't shown in the catalog. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Feb 7, 2018)

Was that a Chrome Master Four Gill on that last CC ride? Does anyone have any lit on one of those?


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## fordmike65 (Feb 7, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> Was that a Chrome Master Four Gill on that last CC ride? Does anyone have any lit on one of those?



Bare metal. Belongs to Jeff @39zep


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## RPS (Feb 7, 2018)

CWCMAN said:


> RPS,
> when your done having fun with the bike, shoot me a message, I'd be interested in buying it from you.



Maybe  you could tell me what Year this came off and if it is CWC?? can't seam to find one anywhere


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## 39zep (Feb 7, 2018)

My 1940 Western Flyer Supreme. 
Tried to get it finished for the ride. Got a call from Joe Mikilanis that he was coming out from Pennsylvania  for the CC ride. He owns one of the two OG paint WFS that I know of. That’s Joes 40 on the cover of CBN and that’s him with the white visor. Joe is an amazing gentleman. Had a great time with him as well as NM Brant, Amanda, Justin and the usual coaster crowd. 
Please continue to pray for Jarod and his family.


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## CWCMAN (Feb 8, 2018)

RPS said:


> Maybe you could tell me what Year this came off and if it is CWC?? can't seam to find one anywhere




RPS,
that rack is CWC but much later, probably late 1940's 

I'd have to refer to catalog pictures for reference to pin it down to an exact year range but it definitely post dates the frame that you have as with most of the other parts that I previously pointed out.

Can I see the inside of the tank as well as a clean shot from both sides of the outer tank.


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## RPS (Feb 8, 2018)

CWCMAN said:


> RPS,
> that rack is CWC but much later, probably late 1940's
> 
> I'd have to refer to catalog pictures for reference to pin it down to an exact year range but it definitely post dates the frame that you have as with most of the other parts that I previously pointed out.
> ...



Hear are a few PICS


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## RPS (Feb 8, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> Was that a Chrome Master Four Gill on that last CC ride? Does anyone have any lit on one of those?



I DON'T KNOW IF THIS HELPS I CAME ACROSS THIS AD


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## RandomParts (Feb 8, 2018)

CWCMAN said:


> RPS,
> that rack is CWC but much later, probably late 1940's
> 
> I'd have to refer to catalog pictures for reference to pin it down to an exact year range but it definitely post dates the frame that you have as with most of the other parts that I previously pointed out.
> ...




I have a '39-41 CWC Wards Hawthorne with that rack.  I am pretty certain that it had never been apart before I got it rolling.


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## fordmike65 (Feb 8, 2018)

RandomParts said:


> I have a '39-41 CWC Wards Hawthorne with that rack.  I am pretty certain that it had never been apart before I got it rolling.



Pics??? Don't know... but I got a feeling this bike is legit. I could be wrong tho. Subscribed


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## CWCMAN (Feb 8, 2018)

Not Subscribed


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## saladshooter (Feb 8, 2018)

RandomParts said:


> I have a '39-41 CWC Wards Hawthorne with that rack.  I am pretty certain that it had never been apart before I got it rolling.




Your '41 probably has a similar rack like this one.


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## CWCMAN (Feb 8, 2018)

RPS said:


> Hear are a few PICS




I'm pretty sure your tank is the 39-40 style based on the way it attaches on the rear most part of the tank.

Although the tank has the same look from its outward appearance, compare to my original 38 tank with the four piece assembly bracket.


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## RPS (Feb 9, 2018)

I found this under 1941  the rack matches mine along with the seat  Thanks for the help going to leave it alone for now


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## CWCMAN (Feb 9, 2018)

It is your bike and you can do with it as you please.

You have a very rare "Y" frame which was used for two years on the 37 bug eye supreme as well as the 38 four gill supreme. Both top of the line in there respected years.

The four gill style tank was used into 1940 but the bike frame style changed to the straight down tube.

Some would say, keep an open mind and perhaps your bike left the factory/dealer as it sits, I however am not part of that camp mainly because most of the parts on the bike with exception of the frame, tank and bent crank/sprocket set up are from later year CWC's.

If you purchased it from the original owner/family, perhaps they have pictures of this bike when Gramps was riding it as new or later in life. (Proof positive)

I have seen some anomalies on bikes throughout the years where a part or two were different then catalog images or known examples, but your bike goes beyond that with several mixed year parts.

Just my two cents. You have a great bike non the less. Service it, clean it up, ride it and enjoy it.

BTW, the bike you posted above for the rack reference is totally correct for that bike, but not yours.

Best regards


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## Freqman1 (Feb 9, 2018)

I'm pretty sure the Four Gill was built into 1941. V/r Shawn


----------



## CWCMAN (Feb 9, 2018)

You could be right Shawn, however I do not see the four gill advertised in the 41 catalog.


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## Scottsforest (Nov 9, 2019)

This is mine... It is like nothing I have ever seen as it has a rear carrier red back light, two speed shift with a front drum brake. It took me over 50 hours to make it look decent without repainting it. The drum brake and 2 speed shifter work great.  The drum brake was rebuilt but the back light blows bulbs within seconds. The original bulb was solid glass! Anything I have replaced it with blows. The things I am missing I wish I had is the drop stand and the original carrier rack back reflector. I saw a bike close to this on ebay going for $12,000 about 8 years ago buy a calfornia San Fransico guy called Bicycle bones.


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## rusty.kirkpatrick (Nov 9, 2019)

Scottsforest said:


> This is mine... It is like nothing I have ever seen as it has a rear carrier red back light, two speed shift with a front drum brake. It took me over 50 hours to make it look decent without repainting it. The drum brake and 2 speed shifter work great.  The drum brake was rebuilt but the back light blows bulbs within seconds. The original bulb was solid glass! Anything I have replaced it with blows. The things I am missing I wish I had is the drop stand and the original carrier rack back reflector. I saw a bike close to this on ebay going for $12,000 about 8 years ago buy a calfornia San Fransico guy called Bicycle bones.
> 
> View attachment 1093175



Nice! What’s the story on this one? I had to double take, I thought that was a real dog peeing on that car.


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## cyclingday (Nov 10, 2019)

Very nice!
Thanks for posting.


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## Jon Olson (Nov 10, 2019)

Scottsforest said:


> This is mine... It is like nothing I have ever seen as it has a rear carrier red back light, two speed shift with a front drum brake. It took me over 50 hours to make it look decent without repainting it. The drum brake and 2 speed shifter work great.  The drum brake was rebuilt but the back light blows bulbs within seconds. The original bulb was solid glass! Anything I have replaced it with blows. The things I am missing I wish I had is the drop stand and the original carrier rack back reflector. I saw a bike close to this on ebay going for $12,000 about 8 years ago buy a calfornia San Fransico guy called Bicycle bones.
> 
> View attachment 1093175



B18554 Restored as a 1938 Roadmaster Supreme, because of the fork mounting holes for the silver rays. (Per JAF/CO)


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## Scottsforest (Nov 10, 2019)

Wow, that is a beautiful bike! Did you see the two speed and front drum brake on mine? All I need is your pain job. hahaha


----------



## Pedals Past (Nov 10, 2019)

I sold the original 37 and 38 literature with my bikes to Dan Venturi in 2010 .  I had three seperate original 37 catalogs and 3 38 catalogs in one 38 Hub Hardware catalog it showed a bugeye tank bike with a 38 carrier. This was the same as my boys bike when I purchased it from Scott Allison and Perry Yuskin in 1997..... there is a picture on Bicycle Bills (Bill Waltzer) web page that was taken outside at my pool by Andy McCalla that got circulated without my permission. The tank had no guts ((which i later found) under the tank on head tube was the Roadmaster reflector badge, it had no holes for guts I installed a matching original paint 37 carrier. The catalog showed and listed the cushioner gooseneck and movie ace applecore badge that was on the bike. I had the badge reproduced as well as ear rings of the badge for my GF. There were no holes for battery box in frame, nor on the cream 38 shown in this thread that i also owned. Both had lobdell original seats and cushion gooseneck as the patent showed however those parts were robbed somewhere throughout its travels after I sold it. 

The 37 got hammered through out the hobby fortunately i had two bikes so i sold it kept the one not many have seen. I had a very rare collectionnof apple core badges that went with the literature. Marty’s bike now owned by Ken in Livermores bike belonged to Don Vaughn and in 1999 he took me to a guys barn and saw the 37 blue bike that Mark Mattei bought at Copake from Sam Dickenson who put the gothic ballast gooseneck off my 38 girls Hawthorne i sold to Ted Lesher on it. I delivered the gooseneck   to Sam for Ted in 2006. That bike is now owned by John Atkinson in San Diego. There is a mold made of the gooseneck to be reproduced by a undisclosed hobby member. 

I was scorned for switching a carrier and the biggest faux paux in the hobby is the install of that gooseneck only to create the dispute that was the cushion gooseneck correct for the 37 RMS subsequently resulting in the removal of it from Dons bike somewhere in its travels.    The blue bike was a non deluxe version when i saw it in that barn in Carlisle Pa. long spring seat no lock mount on frame coke bottle grips and a cathedral gooseneck no cushion no gothic. I have hard copy photos of both it and Dons bike before Larkin got the collection to sell before Don died. It was before phone cameras and just as digital cameras were coming out. 

In summary who bought my literature collection from Venturi? He parted the two bikes because of this info on the 37-38 i just provided.


----------



## Freqman1 (Nov 10, 2019)

My ‘38


----------



## fordmike65 (Nov 10, 2019)

Scottsforest said:


> Wow, that is a beautiful bike! Did you see the two speed and front drum brake on mine? All I need is your pain job. hahaha



I wouldn't change a thing. That's one beautiful 4 Gill that will only be original once. Love it.


----------



## Pedals Past (Nov 10, 2019)

Pedals Past said:


> I sold the original 37 and 38 literature with my bikes to Dan Venturi in 2010 .  I had three seperate original 37 catalogs and 3 38 catalogs in one 38 Hub Hardware catalog it showed a bugeye tank bike with a 38 carrier. This was the same as my boys bike when I purchased it from Scott Allison and Perry Yuskin in 1997..... there is a picture on Bicycle Bills (Bill Waltzer) web page that was taken outside at my pool by Andy McCalla that got circulated without my permission. The tank had no guts ((which i later found) under the tank on head tube was the Roadmaster reflector badge, it had no holes for guts I installed a matching original paint 37 carrier. The catalog showed and listed the cushioner gooseneck and movie ace applecore badge that was on the bike. I had the badge reproduced as well as ear rings of the badge for my GF. There were no holes for battery box in frame, nor on the cream 38 shown in this thread that i also owned. Both had lobdell original seats and cushion gooseneck as the patent showed however those parts were robbed somewhere throughout its travels after I sold it.
> 
> The 37 got hammered through out the hobby fortunately i had two bikes so i sold it kept the one not many have seen. I had a very rare collectionnof apple core badges that went with the literature. Marty’s bike now owned by Ken in Livermores bike belonged to Don Vaughn and in 1999 he took me to a guys barn and saw the 37 blue bike that Mark Mattei bought at Copake from Sam Dickenson who put the gothic ballast gooseneck off my 38 girls Hawthorne i sold to Ted Lesher on it. I delivered the gooseneck   to Sam for Ted in 2006. That bike is now owned by John Atkinson in San Diego. There is a mold made of the gooseneck to be reproduced by a undisclosed hobby member.
> 
> ...




The 37 had dual silver rays as well as tge tank just as shown in the hub catalog funny thing there was no battery box or holes for one or marks that ever confirmed it might have had a 38 tank the paint was bright only under the frame of the short 37 bugeye tank.


----------



## Pedals Past (Nov 10, 2019)

There are questions on the paint schemes as well ..... there are several original bikes with reversed paint schemes to the ones shown in the literature .....


----------



## saladshooter (Nov 13, 2019)

Scottsforest said:


> Wow, that is a beautiful bike! Did you see the two speed and front drum brake on mine? All I need is your pain job. hahaha



Yeah, like Mike said, most would prefer your original paint job!


----------



## poolboy1 (Nov 25, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> My ‘38
> 
> View attachment 1093332



SEXY BIKE!!!


----------



## cyclingday (Apr 12, 2021)

This back burner project appears to be a 1938 model.



Unfortunately, it’s just a frame, so I’ll probably build it as a Roadster.



Interesting serial number.
Kind of looks like a 39 number, except that this type of frame wasn’t built in 39.
I’ll most likely have to repaint, since I’ll be gathering up the parts, but it looks like the frame was originally red/white.


----------



## Krakatoa (Apr 12, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> This back burner project appears to be a 1938 model.View attachment 1390342
> Unfortunately, it’s just a frame, so I’ll probably build it as a Roadster.
> View attachment 1390343
> Interesting serial number.
> ...




D serial was used roughly 2nd half of '38 thru 1st third of 1939 so it seems to check out.

I would consider that a front-burner project if you ever grow tired of it!


----------



## New Mexico Brant (Apr 13, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> I’ll most likely have to repaint, since I’ll be gathering up the parts, but it looks like the frame was originally red/white.



I would be tempted to pull off that black paint first Marty.  It is usually the easiest paint color to remove.  Here is my back burner version:


----------



## cyclingday (Feb 12, 2022)

Ok!
It’s getting a little closer to the front burner now.















I’ve still got a bit of work to do, but it’s starting to get exciting!
I was able to remove enough of the over paint, to determine that this frame, originally had been painted with the tankless scheme.
So, even though I changed the color combination, the model designation stays the same.


----------



## Freqman1 (Feb 12, 2022)

cyclingday said:


> Ok!
> It’s getting a little closer to the front burner now.
> View attachment 1569079
> View attachment 1569080
> ...



Shaping up to be one sweet ride Marty!


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Feb 15, 2022)

Marty that is coming out and looking amazing !!!


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## bikewhorder (Feb 15, 2022)

cyclingday said:


> Ok!
> It’s getting a little closer to the front burner now.
> View attachment 1569079
> View attachment 1569080
> ...



Wow, Did you do the paint on this?! It looks amazing!


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## cyclingday (Mar 5, 2022)

Ok, 
The restoration/resurrection of the 1938 Roadmaster Supreme, model, 2226 is done!
Yay!






Many thanks, to; Keith “Kid” Dean, and Tom Clark for the paint expertise.
You guys are amazing!
Santi, Cordoba for providing the original 1938 RMS frame.
Gus Salmon Decals.
Big huge thanks to Jaf/Co, Jim Frazier for just about everything else.
Literally could not have done this without your help.
My appreciation goes out to all you CWC nuts.
Your knowledge and inspiration is contagious.
So, Thank you all!



This frame had just enough original paint left on it, that I could see that it had originally been the unequipped version of the 38 Roadmaster Supreme.
So, that helped me make the decision, not to try and track down the tank, lights etc.



In keeping with the made in Cleveland theme, I decided to go with the Musselman hubset.



Big thanks to Scott Alison for his amazing saddle work.
Your craftsmanship is astounding!



I debated whether or not to decal the frame, but after I saw the fine quality of the Gus Salmon decals, I couldn’t resist the temptation.
His work is incredible!
Thanks, Gus!



So, here it is!



It’s like I’ve just travelled back in time, and went to Gordon Cycle & Supply Company, in Cleveland, Ohio, and bought a brand new, 1938 Roadmaster Supreme.
Oh, yeah!


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## fordmike65 (Mar 5, 2022)

@39zep 

She's a beaut Marty!







Question: How do Musselman hubs tie into the CWC theme? I'm not well versed in CWC, so inquiring minds want to know!


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## cyclingday (Mar 5, 2022)

Thanks, Mike!
Like most, if not all of the manufacturers, they offered a choice of, New Departure, Morrow, or Musselman hubs.
So, since Musselman was also in Cleveland, my thinking is, that any CLEVELAND Welding Company bicycle worth its salt, should have hubs that were also made in Cleveland.
But hey!
That’s just me.
It’s a builders choice kind of thing.
So, I went with Musselman.


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## CWCMAN (Mar 5, 2022)

Looks great Marty. I’m glad to see that Keith “Kid” Dean is back in action. I know where my 38 Supreme will be going.


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## cyclingday (Mar 5, 2022)

Thanks, Eddie.
Yeah, Keith and Tom did an amazing job.
Mind blowing, really.


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## Rust_Trader (Mar 5, 2022)

cyclingday said:


> Thanks, Eddie.
> Yeah, Keith and Tom did an amazing job.
> Mind blowing, really.



What’s mind blowing, your vision to bring these old bikes to life. Good job Marty, another masterpiece!


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## cyclingday (Mar 5, 2022)

Thanks, Santi!
Couldn’t have done it without your very important piece of the puzzle.


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Mar 5, 2022)

Holy cannoli.. marty, stunning work on the y frame roadmaster!


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## cyclingday (Mar 5, 2022)

Thanks, George!
Resto’s are fun, but not for the faint of patience or wallet.


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## TRM (Mar 5, 2022)

Very nice!


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## OSCAR...N... (Mar 5, 2022)

Beautiful.!!✌️🤝✌️..Beautiful.!!..B.K.

LOVE  RMS...BIKES FROM CWC...😙😜

AMAZING JOB...SIR.!!


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## saladshooter (Mar 5, 2022)

Fantastic bike Marty nicely done!


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## cyclingday (Mar 7, 2022)

Thank’s, Chad.
Here’s a few more pics from yesterday’s ride.




I really appreciate your help with the Master Weld decals.
It’s somewhat unclear, whether or not these 38 Y frame Supremes fell under the Master Weld banner.
When I had all of the paint stripped off of this frame, I could see the seam up by the head tube that looked just like what is shown in the 38 literature.
Does that mean, the 38 Y frames are different from the 37’s and made with the Master Weld process?
I have no idea, but I suspect they were.
The front page of the 38 catalog is all about this new welding process, and the Supremes were their flagship models, so it makes sense that they would’ve incorporated that technique into their top of the line models.
But, in all reality, the jury is still out on that one, and I can only go by my experience with this project, so I decided to go ahead and install the Master Weld decal on this frame.
Besides, it’s just such a cool looking decal, I couldn’t resist the opportunity to use it.
The serial number on this frame, is really late for a 38 model, and may in fact be the latest serial numbered Y frame found to date.
Since it falls into the 38/39 production period, it sure seems like it would’ve been made using the Master Weld process.



Another mystery solved, was if any of the Y frame Supreme models ever got the Roadmaster downtube decal?
As luck would have it, 39Zep has an original condition, tankless 37 Supreme, with the downtube decal, so with that corroboration, I had no hesitancy in whether it was appropriate or not, to apply the Roadmaster decal on this frame.



And last, but not least, was the decision to apply a point of purchase decal on a restored bike?
I’ve always loved seeing a point of purchase decal on these old bikes.
It tells the story about the origins of the bike, and what part of the country it started its existence in.
So, why put a point of purchase decal on a restored bike?
Pure fantasy!
These type of projects are kind of fantasy builds anyway.
What is the likely hood of finding an original condition 1938 Roadmaster Supreme model 2226?
Have you ever even seen a picture of one?
I haven’t, so the next best thing, is to build one.
So since this bike was manufactured in Cleveland, Ohio.
I thought it would be appropriate to apply a Cleveland area bike shop, point of purchase decal on the frame.
The only shop that I could think of, from that time period, was Gordon Cycle & Supply Inc. Cleveland, Ohio.
I knew that Gordon had been a big Murray dealer, but I wasn’t sure, if they sold Roadmasters.
I knew that Scott McCaskey had been to Gordon’s many times, so I asked him if they ever sold Roadmasters, and if he had ever seen a point of purchase decal from the shop?
Well that home run turned into a grand slam, when he said, not only were they a big Roadmaster dealer, but that legend had it, back in the day, somebody pulled a Roadmaster Supreme out of their stash!
I would love to know more about that story, and where that bike is now?
Fantastic!
It is said, that Gordon never threw anything away, so the place was a veritable treasure trove of all things classic bike.
So, no better shop to emulate, than Gordon Cycle & Supply, Cleveland, Ohio.
But, what did their shop decal look like?
As luck would have it, Scott also had a remnant of one of their original decals.
I took some creative license in recreating it, but the address and information is accurate.
I found one of Gordon’s business cards from the 1950’s, and it listed painting, striping and welding as some of their services.
I couldn’t believe it!
How perfect is that?
Although, I highly doubt their painting and striping was on par with Kid Dean and Tom Clark, I still thought it was cool to incorporate the fantasy, that this bike could’ve been restored at Gordon’s in the 1950’s?



It’s all about having fun anyway, so what the heck, right?


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## srfndoc (Mar 7, 2022)

Amazing job Marty.  Like all your bikes, I hope it gets ridden/seen a lot.


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## OSCAR...N... (Mar 7, 2022)

Nothing like @ RMS...Bikes They are.!!

Beautiful 😍 just look at the lines and, you. 

 Me, You,You & Much of Yooouuuusss.. Fell in love With the (Y frame) Style Back in (1937/38)Uuuufff...
E.Y.D.W.A...HaHa..😠🙈😠///😜🤣😜🤣😜🤣



I love it...Enjoy your Beautiful bike Sir.!!

And keep up your good Work.!!.Vivale.!CWC.!


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## 39zep (Mar 7, 2022)




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## cyclingday (Mar 8, 2022)

This from the January edition of American Bicyclist 1938.


























This is an interesting way to double butt the tubing at the weld joints.
Heavy duty for sure.


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## slick (Mar 8, 2022)

So wait..... shiny bikes are popular again? Covid really changed everything. 🤣😂 It looks great Marty. Just giving you a hard time. Less is more on these. Makes me want to rip the bug eye tank off mine now. 😁


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## cyclingday (Mar 9, 2022)

No worries, Chris, aka Slick.
I’m going to be riding it down by the seashore as much as I can, so it probably won’t be shiny for long. Lol!



I suppose I could send it down with the Lobster traps for awhile.🤔


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## volksboy57 (Mar 9, 2022)

I saw this a few years ago in culver city. Not sure if you guys have seen it.


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## fordmike65 (Mar 9, 2022)

volksboy57 said:


> I saw this a few years ago in culver city. Not sure if you guys have seen it.
> View attachment 1585813



@39zep


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## saladshooter (Mar 9, 2022)

volksboy57 said:


> I saw this a few years ago in culver city. Not sure if you guys have seen it.
> View attachment 1585813




The owner posted this a few pages back.

Post in thread '1938 Y Frame road master supreme Info' https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1938-y-frame-road-master-supreme-info.35915/post-1092357


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## Freqman1 (Mar 10, 2022)

@39zep Id be interested on your take as far as the correct seat mast/fender decals and placement. V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday (Mar 10, 2022)

I don’t think there’s much to debate.
Out of the small handfuls of original as found bikes of either year, 37/38RMS.
Not one had been found with an originally applied Master Weld decal.
The few 37’s to date have the winged CWC decal on the fender, but not all the originals have this feature.
Of the ones that do, some are high on the fender, and some are low on the fender.
The 38 literature makes a strong statement, that all of the Roadmaster line has a frame that is 100% stronger, and to be sure to look for the Master Weld decal on the seat mast/tube.
It makes sense, that they would want the decal on the frame, since that is the part in question, and that it is the one part of the bicycle that’s not going anywhere during its lifetime.
Are the 38 Roadmaster Supreme’s considered to be part of the Roadmaster line in 1938?
It sure seems like they would be.
Especially since they were the flagship models for that year.
When I had the frame stripped, it definitely showed fillet brazing for cosmetic purposes, but those were not enough to hold the frame together.
I can’t say for certain that the 38 RMS’s were constructed using the new Master Weld technique, but I suspect that they may have been in part, with some brazing for cosmetic reasons.
The safe bet, was to leave the decal off, and that’s what I would recommend, but in my case, I wanted to use it, mainly because the company was so proud of it, it looks so cool, and it was such a defining feature of the 1938 Roadmaster model year.
And for fantasy sake, if you were going to use it on a 1938 Roadmaster Supreme, the literature clearly states, to look for that symbol on the seat tube.
That’s my two cents. 😜


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## cyclingday (Mar 10, 2022)

I think what needs to happen, is that the next guy to turn up with a bona fide, D prefix Y frame, needs to take one for the team, and dissect it with a Sawzall, to see if it has those knurled inserts in the ends of the tubes.
That would definitely put the whole issue to rest once and for all.
I use to think, that the 38 Y frame was just a surplus hold over from the 37 model year, and that all the frames were the same.
Now, I’m not so sure.
The letter D prefix on the serial number shows, that they were definitely manufacturing these models well up to if not spilling over, into 1939.
The big question is, were the 1938 model Y frames constructed using Master Weld technique, with the knurled inserts in the ends of the tubes?
That would make a big difference between the 1937 models, and the 1938 models.
It would also make the likelihood of fabricating frames for the 38 models less feasible.
At least from an internal point of view.


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## 39zep (Mar 11, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> @39zep Id be interested on your take as far as the correct seat mast/fender decals and placement. V/r Shawn



Marty has it nailed. Haven’t seen enough examples especially on the early high end bikes. Seemed more prevalent on later models.
Btw. Tried to message you with no luck. Thanks.


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