# To profit or not to profit.



## cyberpaull (May 25, 2015)

Thanks to all of you that restore all the old Schwinns that will never show a profit, but for the love of the bikes. We would never have so many great bikes out there. We are just caretakers of these bikes for a short time.  Thanks Paul


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## island schwinn (May 26, 2015)

Beautiful bikes.
Been a long time since I made a profit on any bike I've sold.I'm happy to break even if I know the bike is going to a new,happy home.


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## vincev (May 26, 2015)

Thats what a real collector is about.Those that think they will make a living from a hobby need to get a real career .


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## spokes (May 26, 2015)

I would think those that are real collectors or should I say successful collectors buy & sell bikes to be able to purchase the bikes that are needed for their collections. Always up grading.


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## rollfaster (May 26, 2015)

I even gave a few bikes away to people in need who can really appreicate and promote riding vintage bicycles. By doing this I feel like I've accomplished something. Spreading the love sort of speak. Rob.


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## Springer Tom (May 26, 2015)

vincev said:


> Thats what a real collector is about.Those that think they will make a living from a hobby need to get a real career .




Bullseye!!!!!!


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## syclesavage (May 26, 2015)

Double Bullseye on all you guyes comments been there done that.


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## sfhschwinn (May 26, 2015)

I love my bikes, but since I have been in High school and now to pay for college I buy, sell and repair bikes. I am not ashamed to say this but 99% of the time I always make a profit on what I sell. I do not think there is anything wrong with making a profit except if that profit comes at the expense of parting an original bike just because more money can be made. I provide a valuable service to my community as I have been to almost every bike shop in a 10 mile radius and every single one is overpriced and most lie to make a quick buck (I have spoken to others who have gone to these shops and they agree). I am straight with everyone I deal with and charge affordable prices almost always lower than a shop. My bikes are almost always priced below value so the locals can afford a great bike at a great price but I can still profit.  I will get a real job as soon as I graduate but even after I will keep doing this as I get a thrill every time I buy and sell something


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## vincev (May 26, 2015)

[QUOTE=sfhschwinn;I provide a valuable service to my community as I have been to almost every bike shop in a 10 mile radius and every single one is overpriced and most lie to make a quick buck (I have spoken to others who have gone to these shops and they agree). 


I am not arguing that a person can repair a bike cheaper than a bike shop but if you ever ran a business there is store rental,electricity,heat,payroll,insurance,zoning conditions,etc. That doesnt make their rates as ripoffs.It means they have many more costs than just playing in a garage.


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## Duck (May 26, 2015)

rollfaster said:


> I even gave a few bikes away to people in need who can really appreicate and promote riding vintage bicycles. By doing this I feel like I've accomplished something. Spreading the love sort of speak. Rob.



 I've done likewise; After all, passing something along, is, in the end, all it's really about, anyway.


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## detroitbike (May 26, 2015)

sfhschwinn said:


> I love my bikes, but since I have been in High school and now to pay for college I buy, sell and repair bikes. I am not ashamed to say this but 99% of the time I always make a profit on what I sell. I do not think there is anything wrong with making a profit except if that profit comes at the expense of parting an original bike just because more money can be made. I provide a valuable service to my community as I have been to almost every bike shop in a 10 mile radius and every single one is overpriced and most lie to make a quick buck (I have spoken to others who have gone to these shops and they agree). I am straight with everyone I deal with and charge affordable prices almost always lower than a shop. My bikes are almost always priced below value so the locals can afford a great bike at a great price but I can still profit.  I will get a real job as soon as I graduate but even after I will keep doing this as I get a thrill every time I buy and sell something




   I own a bike shop / museum ..
  My overhead is 10,000 a month not including Payroll.
    I pay my Mechanics $15,000 (Teenagers) - to almost 40K a year Including health Insurance , Paid Vacations , Wholesale parts and bikes and we get to play around with
 Tons of cool bikes all the time. We work in and outside most of the day.  I have saved more bikes in one year than most will see in a lifetime.
    I have a crapload of money invested in my hobby (job).
     I have introduced thousands of people to new and Old vintage bicycles.
       I Buy , sell , Trade , & Part out bikes Every day and yes I make money doing it.
   Most are junky & unwanted but it wasn't too long ago that I turned down Schwinn Krates as trade ins on new bikes!
    I turned down a comfy job at Chrysler to make less than min wage based on the hours I work.
       But I LOVE IT and wouldn't trade what I do for anything.
         I think it's a real job and the IRS agrees.
     BTW:
  I DO pay taxes on my profits unlike some collectors (but not all).


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## Balloontyre (May 26, 2015)

vincev said:


> Thats what a real collector is about.Those that think they will make a living from a hobby need to get a real career .




Hey Vince,
I'm not sure if I understand you, are not retailers in most hobbies?
You know, like a coin shop or classic car lot for example.


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## sfhschwinn (May 26, 2015)

vincev said:


> sfhschwinn;I provide a valuable service to my community as I have been to almost every bike shop in a 10 mile radius and every single one is overpriced and most lie to make a quick buck (I have spoken to others who have gone to these shops and they agree).
> 
> 
> I am not arguing that a person can repair a bike cheaper than a bike shop but if you ever ran a business there is store rental said:
> ...


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## sfhschwinn (May 26, 2015)

detroitbike said:


> I own a bike shop / museum ..
> My overhead is 10,000 a month not including Payroll.
> I pay my Mechanics $15,000 (Teenagers) - to almost 40K a year Including health Insurance , Paid Vacations , Wholesale parts and bikes and we get to play around with
> Tons of cool bikes all the time. We work in and outside most of the day.  I have saved more bikes in one year than most will see in a lifetime.
> ...




As I said to Vince's response to me, I completely understand overhead, that is why I can charge $10 for a flat vs a shop for $15+. You guys do have to make money and I wish I had a store to. My main point was I don't like the guys that have shops where I live going around and telling customers that something is broken and needs to be replaced when, most of the time if I see it, I can usually just change a nut, bolt, spring, etc in a few minutes and make it good as new for a fraction of the cost, why couldn't the shop give them the option of a new part vs a cheaper repair?


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## vincev (May 26, 2015)

Balloontyre said:


> Hey Vince,
> I'm not sure if I understand you, are not retailers in most hobbies?
> You know, like a coin shop or classic car lot for example.




Not talking about people who have legit business.To often I see collectors who are just in a hobby to make a buck and have no real interest in the hobby. many collectors have related businesses because they love the hobby they are in. I am into other hobbies and see to often the ones just there to make a buck.They are always thinking about money and have no attachment to the hobby they are in.


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## Balloontyre (May 26, 2015)

vincev said:


> Not talking about people who have legit business.To often I see collectors who are just in a hobby to make a buck and have no real interest in the hobby. many collectors have related businesses because they love the hobby they are in. I am into other hobbies and see to often the ones just there to make a buck.They are always thinking about money and have no attachment to the hobby they are in.




Gotchya, thanks man


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## vincev (May 26, 2015)

sfhschwinn said:


> As I said to Vince's response to me, I completely understand overhead, that is why I can charge $10 for a flat vs a shop for $15+. You guys do have to make money and I wish I had a store to. My main point was I don't like the guys that have shops where I live going around and telling customers that something is broken and needs to be replaced when, most of the time if I see it, I can usually just change a nut, bolt, spring, etc in a few minutes and make it good as new for a fraction of the cost, why couldn't the shop give them the option of a new part vs a cheaper repair?




I understand what you mean but watch out repairing others property with a cheap fix.IF something happens to the bike you "fixed" you are open for a law suit. I know of someone that was sued 6 years after the item he worked on was involved in an accident. Cost him $25,000 plus legal fees. Dont ever think someone will not sue you.


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## Wheeled Relics (May 26, 2015)

Knock knock! It's the rip off artist police!


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## scrubbinrims (May 26, 2015)

I spend much more in bicycles and parts for myself every year than I make in net revenue in flipping stuff.
The money I spend on bicycles has already been taxed.
I am a enthusiast and not incorporated, so I neither consider selling a bicycle for more than I bought it for a "profit," nor will I look to our government for subsidy for stuff I lose money on.
Chris


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## detroitbike (May 26, 2015)

I always try to repair First , Then Replace only if I cannot .
 Also Most new Bicycle parts are Junk Compared to the old stuff.


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## Wheeled Relics (May 26, 2015)

View attachment 216703


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## Goldenrod1 (May 27, 2015)

My view of our hobby is "value added while the knowledge is still around".  Placing a bike out to rust in front of your house as a decoration is the opposite of this.  Profit-or-not the bikes are preserved.  This goes for carousel horses, autos, clocks etc..  We save the label- American Made.  If more cost is involved it will make the item more safe from the destroyers.  Ray


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## videoranger (May 27, 2015)

forget the profit, I'm into bikes because they attract cute girls. The girl in the striped shorts is a perfect example of what this hobby is all about, oh and bikes too.


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## scrubbinrims (May 27, 2015)

I really don't get why the girl in the stripped shorts is in this thread, but then again, I don't have too... wink, wink.
Chris


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## silvertonguedevil (May 27, 2015)

Yipes Stripes!


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## SirMike1983 (May 27, 2015)

To me, the issue is not profit versus non-profit. The issue is more honest versus dishonest. I've bought items from honest sellers who describe the material faults of the item and provide decent pictures. I've also been unlucky enough to buy items with material faults omitted and deceiving pictures made to capture every bit of the bike, except the flaw. My concern is less whether the seller I encounter makes a profit and more whether he is dealing squarely with me. I refuse to vilify someone who profits, but is a square dealer.



detroitbike said:


> BTW:
> I DO pay taxes on my profits unlike some collectors (but not all).




That phrase caught my eye and leads me to a second point. One of the unsung abuses of the bike hobby is tax evasion. I am talking about substantial profit, not raw revenue (revenue above basis, as they say), being funneled through personal payments to avoid taxes. There are some individuals in the hobby  who have used these means to evade taxes on _profit_ turned in fairly considerable quantities. There are people using Paypal Gift in an attempt to avoid a 1099 (this was over $10k per year at the time), they had so much money flow through. I've had people tell me to use USPS Money Order or Paypal Gift _only_ because they did not want to blow over the limit using "goods" payment, and this took place even when I offered to pay the fee. These are not small fish either- we're talking individuals selling numerous bikes and parts per year to the tune of many thousands of dollars. This statement is not aimed at anyone in this thread, but there are some of these individuals out there and in the hobby.

The common thread here is that neither of these abuses has anything to do with profit itself, rather whether an individual profits or bolsters profit using dishonest means. We can get hung up on parting out bicycles, or restoring something that might go without restoring, but there are some forms of behavior in the hobby that I think are worse but seem to pass below the radar.


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## Wheeled Relics (May 27, 2015)

"The issue is more honest versus dishonest."


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## scrubbinrims (May 27, 2015)

It is not dishonest and I have no moral issue in requesting funds outside of paypal.
I do have a moral issue if a buyer wants to use paypal and expects buyer protection at my expense...you want it, you pay the 3% because I accept alternatives and there are checks and balances with the ability to reply to my FS threads and reputation.
I do have a moral issue that ebay funnels all payments through paypal.
I do have moral issue in paypal reporting my ebay sales because I am not a business, I do not have a record of invoices for things I bought, packing slips, balance sheets, etc...to prove that my sales are not profit, but incremental to what I spend my post taxed income on.
Chris


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## Wheeled Relics (May 27, 2015)

....



SirMike1983 said:


> To me, the issue is not profit versus non-profit. The issue is more honest versus dishonest. I've bought items from honest sellers who describe the material faults of the item and provide decent pictures. I've also been unlucky enough to buy items with material faults omitted and deceiving pictures made to capture every bit of the bike, except the flaw. My concern is less whether the seller I encounter makes a profit and more whether he is dealing squarely with me. I refuse to vilify someone who profits, but is a square dealer.
> 
> ... We can get hung up on parting out bicycles, or restoring something that might go without restoring, but there are some forms of behavior in the hobby that I think are worse but seem to pass below the radar.




Very well composed thoughts on the subject.


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## hellshotrods (May 27, 2015)

scrubbinrims said:


> It is not dishonest and I have no moral issue in requesting funds outside of paypal.
> I do have a moral issue if a buyer wants to use paypal and expects buyer protection at my expense...you want it, you pay the 3% because I accept alternatives and there are checks and balances with the ability to reply to my FS threads and reputation.
> I do have a moral issue that ebay funnels all payments through paypal.
> I do have moral issue in paypal reporting my ebay sales because I am not a business, I do not have a record of invoices for things I bought, packing slips, balance sheets, etc...to prove that my sales are not profit, but incremental to what I spend my post taxed income on.
> Chris




I've been on eBay for 17 years and I agree with thee statements 100%


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