# Late 30's Double Curve Roadster?



## jwages (Jul 30, 2017)

Hello. I'm thinking of buying this frame. A local guy started a restoration and said the head badge on it (removed for restoration but in his possession) was Excelsior. I dug around and it looks most like a 30s Roadster, but I'm new to collecting and I have no clue. The Schwinn site says the serial number belongs to a 1955 Schwinn. I checked the 55 catalog and don't see anything like it.


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## pedal_junky (Jul 30, 2017)

Not a Schwinn guy, but I'm thinking '38. Here's a catalog image.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 30, 2017)

Serial leads me to believe '38 as well. That frame needs to be dirt cheap because building on like that is gonna cost way more than finding one complete. V/r Shawn


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## keith kodish (Jul 30, 2017)

Pre war Schwinn serial numbers 



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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jul 30, 2017)

I would avoid that frame... extra holes and the head tube looks to have been reattached at some point... very half ass I might add... you don't want to be riding that and have that give way...


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## jwages (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks for the replies. 

Obi-Wan, I hadn't noticed the weld issue but wouldn't have been sure about it anyway. That's pretty disappointing. The seller is offering a period correct crank set, the frame and head badge for 50 bucks.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 30, 2017)

jwages said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Obi-Wan, I hadn't noticed the weld issue but wouldn't have been sure about it anyway. That's pretty disappointing. The seller is offering a period correct crank set, the frame and head badge for 50 bucks.




If its the correct crank set then that and the badge are worth $50. I'd take a better look at the weld on the head tube. Just looks like the top was welded to me. If its straight I'd go for it, V/r Shawn


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## rustjunkie (Jul 30, 2017)

What's the symbol above the serial #?


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## Danny the schwinn freak (Jul 30, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> View attachment 652317
> 
> What's the symbol above the serial #?



Almost looks like the Union logo? Weird!


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## jwages (Jul 30, 2017)

keith kodish said:


> Pre war Schwinn serial numbers View attachment 652119




Keith, thanks for the serial numbers. I'm guessing the frame I posted is machine stamped? It's pretty clean.


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## jwages (Jul 30, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> View attachment 652317
> 
> What's the symbol above the serial #?



No clue. So far, google doesn't know either.


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## jwages (Jul 31, 2017)

Anyone know if there was an excelsior model that used this frame or is the included badge from another bike?


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## jwages (Jul 31, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> If its the correct crank set then that and the badge are worth $50. I'd take a better look at the weld on the head tube. Just looks like the top was welded to me. If its straight I'd go for it, V/r Shawn




Here's the front end that was on the frame when the seller acquired it, and some extra parts some of which he thought might be correct for the frame.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 31, 2017)

Most of what I'm seeing is not correct for that bike. V/r Shawn


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## jwages (Jul 31, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> Most of what I'm seeing is not correct for that bike. V/r Shawn




Worth me buying? Sounds like he wants to part with it and I'm not sure what to offer.


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## rustjunkie (Jul 31, 2017)

Leave this pile be...keep searching


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## jwages (Jul 31, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> Leave this pile be...keep searching



Roger that.


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## jwages (Jul 31, 2017)

Well, I pulled the trigger on the frame and head badge. The seller had a couple dog leg cranks but they were stamped H502 and I read here somewhere that's a lady's crank. So just the frame and excelsior badge for 40 bucks. 

@Obi-Wan Schwinnobi, if it comes apart and I knock my teeth out, don't say you told me so.


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## Cooper S. (Jul 31, 2017)

Since you got it for a steal and since it's in bare metal, is take it to a machine shop and have them strengthen the welds


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## jwages (Jul 31, 2017)

Cooper S. said:


> Since you got it for a steal and since it's in bare metal, is take it to a machine shop and have them strengthen the welds




Here are some close ups of the welds. Looks like a repair to only the top tube(?). I'll have it looked at by a pro. Sooo, who wants to sell me some Roadster parts?


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## fattyre (Aug 1, 2017)

You got a deal on the head badge!  That headtube is junk.  That a pretty big project right there to fix that.  Not to mention frame alignment.


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## kwoodyh (Aug 1, 2017)

I disagree with that assessment, I think that it is fine and will make a fine bike. If you study the Schwinn Electro Forging technique of frame construction it explains how it was done. Great article on Sheldon Brown explains it well. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html


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## Freqman1 (Aug 1, 2017)

jwages said:


> Here are some close ups of the welds. Looks like a repair to only the top tube(?). I'll have it looked at by a pro. Sooo, who wants to sell me some Roadster parts?
> 
> View attachment 653448
> 
> ...




After seeing those close-ups I think you are going to have real issues. I don't think head cups will even go in there! I think this is one of those live and learn experiences. V/r Shawn


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Aug 1, 2017)

kwoodyh said:


> I disagree with that assessment, I think that it is fine and will make a fine bike. If you study the Schwinn Electro Forging technique of frame construction it explains how it was done. Great article on Sheldon Brown explains it well. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Except this isn't electoforged... prewar... 


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Aug 1, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> After seeing those close-ups I think you are going to have real issues. I don't think head cups will even go in there! I think this is one of those live and learn experiences. V/r Shawn




Yeah I wouldn't trust that at all


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## Vintage Paintworx (Aug 1, 2017)

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## Cooper S. (Aug 1, 2017)

If you don't trust it, I'll take it off your hands for ya


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## jwages (Aug 1, 2017)

Cooper S. said:


> If you don't trust it, I'll take it off your hands for ya




Well, I've owned it for about 15 hours so I'm not ready to part with it just yet, lol.  I'm motivated to give it one hell of a try. My biggest concern is material loss inside the head tube. I'm searching for a workaround. Meanwhile, I'd like to determine whether the head tube was repaired in place or off the frame completely, so if anyone can provide the lengths on the top and bottom bar of their roadster, that should get me started. I think.


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## kwoodyh (Aug 1, 2017)

Have you determined the bearing cups your using? The material loss you spoke of inside the head tube might be a normal by product of the seamed tubing process and the thinner portion of the tube was placed forward as not to be exposed to the welding heat and risking burn through? If the tube bore is ovalized then flat shim stock could be used to make up the difference and hold the cups secure?


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## Freqman1 (Aug 1, 2017)

Heck they don't even look round. Unless you have some decent metal working skills this is a project better off not pursuing. I'm not alone here in suggesting this. If you are hell bent on spending about three times what the bike is worth finished then go for it. Otherwise I'd move on. V/r Shawn


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## jwages (Aug 1, 2017)

kwoodyh said:


> Have you determined the bearing cups your using? The material loss you spoke of inside the head tube might be a normal by product of the seamed tubing process and the thinner portion of the tube was placed forward as not to be exposed to the welding heat and risking burn through? If the tube bore is ovalized then flat shim stock could be used to make up the difference and hold the cups secure?




kwoodyh, that's where I started. Just ordered cups 1"/25.4-26.4. The bike shop put a caliper on it, it looks like the cups will press in okay. Worst case, a shim or build up some material and ream it. Meanwhile, I need a fork. As for the ugly weld, the "old" guys at the bike shop feel okay about it. The lower weld seems to match the other welds on the bike. I'm feeling encouraged.


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## kwoodyh (Aug 1, 2017)

Yep that's what I think too. I'm not sure if building it up and honing to size is going to be an option?


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## jwages (Aug 1, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> Heck they don't even look round. Unless you have some decent metal working skills this is a project better off not pursuing. I'm not alone here in suggesting this. If you are hell bent on spending about three times what the bike is worth finished then go for it. Otherwise I'd move on. V/r Shawn




Believe me, I hear you guys and I respect your experience big time. I just appreciate that you're all interested. This is my first prewar piece so I want to do my best for it. The upside to inexperience is knowing too little to feel discouraged. (Something Vince Lombardi may have said, but probably not)


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## jwages (Aug 1, 2017)

kwoodyh said:


> Yep that's what I think too. I'm not sure if building it up and honing to size is going to be an option?




There's only one way to find out.


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## ZE52414 (Aug 1, 2017)

Those welds are full of porosity!


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## kwoodyh (Aug 1, 2017)

ZE52414 said:


> Those welds are full of porosity!




Non destructive testing via a phone photo? You need to apply to work with me at the steel mill we can use that!


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## kwoodyh (Aug 1, 2017)

If you need a lead on a PW Schwinn fork contact @oldfart36 because one of his buddies was selling one at his swap meet, he was set up right next to him.


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## ZE52414 (Aug 1, 2017)

kwoodyh said:


> Non destructive testing via a phone photo? You need to apply to work with me at the steel mill we can use that!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'm a welder, so I tend to look at Other welds. Doesn't take much to see all the pin holes in those welds


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## jwages (Aug 1, 2017)

ZE52414 said:


> I'm a welder, so I tend to look at Other welds. Doesn't take much to see all the pin holes in those welds




Thanks, Woody. 

Z, she needs a do-over. But I've seen some strong ugly welds.


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## rustjunkie (Aug 1, 2017)

I say spank that thing together cheap-o style and ride it till it fails...if that even happens!


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## kwoodyh (Aug 1, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> I say spank that thing together cheap-o style and ride it till it fails...if that even happens!




How about a hell ya!


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Aug 2, 2017)

it looks like they welded a ring to make the head tube longer to fit the incorrect fork in the photos. as for the frame being junk, if you lack proper skills a great many things are junk.


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## kwoodyh (Aug 2, 2017)

Good thing we all have some mad skills then!


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## Freqman1 (Aug 2, 2017)

Send a pic when you get the fork installed and functioning---then you're cooking with Crisco!


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## jwages (Aug 2, 2017)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> it looks like they welded a ring to make the head tube longer to fit the incorrect fork in the photos. as for the frame being junk, if you lack proper skills a great many things are junk.




I was looking at that ring last night. Measured the head tube and it's 5 1/8. So either your ring theory is right or they attached a postwar head tube. Personally, I think the new welds are limited to the top bar. In any case, I'll be removing an 1/8 and using the correct fork when I can find one. I'm open to either a truss or springer if anyone has one they're willing to part with.


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## kwoodyh (Aug 2, 2017)

@ZE52414 has a couple for sale, and before I start modifying the head tube to fit a fork I'd get one to just install and ride to verify frame the frame is solid.


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## jwages (Aug 2, 2017)

kwoodyh said:


> @ZE52414 has a couple for sale, and before I start modifying the head tube to fit a fork I'd get one to just install and ride to verify frame the frame is solid.




I'm a dog on a pork chop with this thing. 

Can I still run a prewar fork with this 5 1/8 head tube?


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## kwoodyh (Aug 2, 2017)

Is the outward appearance different pre and post war other than the slight difference of heat tube height? Personally I'd have to believe that a post war springer would contain a higher grade of steel because of the advances learned from building the war machine? 


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## Freqman1 (Aug 2, 2017)

kwoodyh said:


> Is the outward appearance different pre and post war other than the slight difference of heat tube height? Personally I'd have to believe that a post war springer would contain a higher grade of steel because of the advances learned from building the war machine?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I'm pretty sure there is a post or thread on here somewhere showing/explaining the differences but they are different. If your gonna do a rat/custom then use whatever. If you want to do original then start hunting a pre war springer. V/r Shawn


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## Autocycleplane (Aug 2, 2017)

I'm sure it's fine to ride. We reamed out many frames for a 1.125" headset and MTB fork back in the day and never had one fail because of it. Heck my sentimental roadster has shims to hold an original headset because it got the treatment too. 

If you can get headset cups to fit tight and have a fork that fits you're golden.


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## jwages (Aug 2, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> I'm pretty sure there is a post or thread on here somewhere showing/explaining the differences but they are different. If your gonna do a rat/custom then use whatever. If you want to do original then start hunting a pre war springer. V/r Shawn




Shawn, I read a few threads here about that topic and learned a lot. What's unclear to me is whether the postwar 5 1/8 head tube length will accommodate a prewar steerer tube originally designed for the shorter 5 inch head tube. Wondering if it'll work with just fewer exposed threads.


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## Autocycleplane (Aug 2, 2017)

jwages said:


> Shawn, I read a few threads here about that topic and learned a lot. What's unclear to me is whether the postwar 5 1/8 head tube length will accommodate a prewar steerer tube originally designed for the shorter 5 inch head tube. Wondering if it'll work with just fewer exposed threads.




You're gonna be right on the edge there. Might just work. Park makes a headtube mill, you could find a shop with one that could properly mill down that ring until a prewar fork works. Doubt they would loan it out, expensive tool.


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## Freqman1 (Aug 2, 2017)

The thing that worries me about that head tube is not the length but the inside where a cup would go. That thing is jacked up pretty good. The first thing I would do is make sure I can get a set of cups in there and that they are straight when you put a fork in. What I mean is if the cups are not aligned the fork will ride off center and you may have some binding. V/r Shawn


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## kwoodyh (Aug 2, 2017)

Good point! It doesn't concern me because I won't be the crash test dummy riding it on its maiden voyage, make sure you have Go Pro charged and PPE is way over hyped!


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## jwages (Aug 2, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> The thing that worries me about that head tube is not the length but the inside where a cup would go. That thing is jacked up pretty good. The first thing I would do is make sure I can get a set of cups in there and that they are straight when you put a fork in. What I mean is if the cups are not aligned the fork will ride off center and you may have some binding. V/r Shawn




It's my concern too. But the deeper you look into the top of the head tube, the better it looks. I have a feeling that giving it a haircut will reveal a more suitable home for the top cup. However, the guys at the bike shop say they've pressed cups into worse (believe it or not) and had no problems.


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