# truss frame ID help (not Iver)



## tailhole (Feb 23, 2014)

*truss frame ID help (not Iver) - It's a Victor!*

Got this one today, don't know what it is, it has 4 holes for the badge and the seat mast is a tall 22", but the head tube is fairly normal size at 5".  It also has the standard bb size.  
No serial numbers (at least I haven't found any yet).  It has the "fish mouth" welds on arch, reminds me of Davis built.
Thanks in advance for any help, info or advice.  
-Scott


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## tailhole (Feb 24, 2014)

*serial number*

I started sandblasting this morning and these numbers appeared.  Maybe it will help.


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## chitown (Feb 24, 2014)

can you get some shots of the stay bridges on both chain and seat stays?


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## tailhole (Feb 25, 2014)




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## mre straightbar (Feb 25, 2014)

*need to get some walnut shells to blast with*

looks like your removeing to much material


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## tailhole (Feb 25, 2014)

mre straightbar said:


> looks like your removeing to much material




Ha!  Yes, I better back off the 40 grit.


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## tailhole (Feb 25, 2014)

*Victor*

This badge looks about right, but I don't know if they made a truss frame.


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## tailhole (Feb 27, 2014)

This is it now.  Just blasted and clear matte powdercoat.  Getting fitted with wheels tomorrow and still looking for some truss rods.


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## tailhole (Mar 2, 2014)

*It's a Victor*

I now believe this is a Victor.  It seemed the badge holes lined up and then I came across a catalog page. Now just to narrow down the year (brochure didn't have a year listed). 
Anyone know the years Victor was active or have a good guess on the year for this bike?



I need to search for the correct bb ring and fork...



Looking for a badge too.


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## fat tire trader (Mar 2, 2014)

Do you mean that you want to look for a sprocket and fork like what's in the Victor catalog?


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## tailhole (Mar 2, 2014)

yes.  that's what I mean.  It's been a long day.  A good day, but a long one.  Thanks.


Oh, and a badge.


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## Iverider (Mar 2, 2014)

From what I've read the overman wheel co. Who made Victor bicycles went under in 1901. Iver Johnson patented the arch truss frame design in 1900 (or filed it anyway) I would think this frame would have had to become before the patent or after it expired round about 1917. Was Victor being produced by another company at that time?


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## tailhole (Mar 3, 2014)

Someone must have bought the name, tooling, badges, etc if they went under in 1901.  I just bought this brochure, but it hasn't arrived yet.  The photos in it remind me of late teens-early 20s bikes.  Here's the covers.


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## Iverider (Mar 3, 2014)

I just read that they actually were finished in 1898. 

http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/bikes-1800s/1892-1893/1893-overman-victor-flyer/

Interesting catalog!


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## Iverider (Mar 3, 2014)

Found this bike previously for sale here.

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?3567-Victor-Bike-any-info

Might have more clues as to who manufactured the bike.


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## tailhole (Mar 3, 2014)

Krautwaggen said:


> Found this bike previously for sale here.
> 
> http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?3567-Victor-Bike-any-info
> 
> Might have more clues as to who manufactured the bike.




Yes, I saw that too and that isn't a TOC bike, more of a contemporary of mine, like teens-20s, don't you think?  I
'll keep digging, I'm sure there's a nugget of info out there.  Maybe there'll be a clue in the brochure.


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## Iverider (Mar 3, 2014)

tailhole said:


> Yes, I saw that too and that isn't a TOC bike, more of a contemporary of mine, like teens-20s, don't you think?  I
> 'll keep digging, I'm sure there's a nugget of info out there.  Maybe they're be a clue in the brochure.




Is there any printing info in the brochure? Definitely a teens-early 20s bike in the other link. The fender everyone was vying for is for an Indian.

Could it be that the Victor name was purchased by Pope or The Westfield MFG. CO.?

Could be that the fender itself was manufactured by another jobber and provided fenders to other manufacturers.


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## tailhole (Mar 3, 2014)

I don't have the brochure yet and no additional info from the photos.  The ad just said "early 1900s".

I'll keep looking around.  I'm confident something will turn up.  It seems like every maker turned out an Iver inspired truss frame in 1917-1918 and then dropped the style shortly afterwords.


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## fordsnake (Mar 3, 2014)

Here's a quick peek at Victor after 1898 (I'll look for more info later tonight).

Victor was in production in 1899. 




It appears by 1901 they were transitioning to motorbikes?




Bikes were advertised 1903...could've been liquidating inventory? 




Here's an interesting nugget...by 1903, the man in charge of Victor reinvents himself?


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## fat tire trader (Mar 3, 2014)

tailhole said:


> yes.  that's what I mean.  It's been a long day.  A good day, but a long one.  Thanks.
> 
> 
> Oh, and a badge.



I would not assume that the fork and sprocket on your bike are wrong, based on what you see in the catalog image.


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## filmonger (Mar 3, 2014)

Ummm - could it possibly be a Miami pathfinder sprocket? 1915 Cat. - Ummm closer look no so sure...guess not  - kindly forgive me should have worn my glasses today.


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## tailhole (Mar 3, 2014)

*Yes*

Fork and sprocket are wrong.  I put those on.  I have no doubts that it is a Victor (or possibly a Speedwell - see badge posted earlier in this thread).  I base this on the odd badge hole layout (also see photo posted earlier).  I am not just curious about the year and who made this frame since Overman Wheel company, who build frames for Victor closed around the turn of the century.  I assume another company either bought Victor or made frames for them.


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## fat tire trader (Mar 3, 2014)

The fork and crankset look good on the frame. It's hard to read the text in this Miami catalog. Does it say "208 Racycle Victor"?


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## Iverider (Mar 3, 2014)

I trust Fordsnake's sources more than some of the stuff I read. Nice work! The Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review are invaluable resources. I wish the Internet Archive had more of them on hand or that someone with a large stash of them would digitize and share them. I know that's a huge undertaking, but it would be fantastic!!!


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## fordsnake (Mar 3, 2014)

In 1901 Overland sold the Victor company to J. Stevens Arms & Tool Company. It was Stevens introduction to the bicycle business, I'm not sure what happened to the biz...at this time I can't find any public mentioning of the Victor Co. after 1903.


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## filmonger (Mar 4, 2014)

I like the ref to Dublin in the article - LOL







Above, Albert H. Overman. At right, the Overman Wheel Co. in Chicopee Falls.

Photo courtesy of the Edward Bellamy Museum Archives

CHICOPEE - I taught basic economics for nearly 20 years, trying to explain the insidious growth of the Internal Revenue Service. The U.S. tax laws are, at best, simply goofy.

A recent editorial cartoon in The Republican's Business Monday depicted a new employee introduced as being formerly with Apple's Tax Evasion Genius Bar. Apple CEO
and media favorite Tim Cooke had recently said America's most successful company's clever evasion of the tax laws is legal. Shifting profits to a dummy subsidiary in Ireland to avoid U.S. taxes is technically OK, even if the Dublin office has only 20 employees.

This is nothing new here. The entrepreneurial class has always spawned a considerable number of economic pirates and a few of the black guards have actually gone to jail. These smooth-talking con men carefully obeyed the existing laws while frequently believing what they told their customers. When the enterprise failed, bankruptcy led to investors losing their money. There was always enough blame to go around, sometimes leading to futile legal action against the perceived miscreants.

For 18 years from 1883 to 1901, Albert H. Overman and his world-famous Victor bicycle put Chicopee Falls on the national industrial map. Unfortunately, when Overman left town in 1901, there was no going-away party.

The Overman Co. had been a major layer in the bicycle boom that swept the country in the 1890s. Overman, who was originally from Chicago, started his bicycle business in Hartford, Conn., and he outsourced manufacturing to the Ames Co. in Chicopee.

Vera Shlakman, writing about Chicopee's industrial history, says, "It was the concentration on the manufacture of bicycles that induced the investment of new capital 
derived from sources."

In 1883, Overman moved his offices from Hartford to Chicopee. He capitalized a new company. The largest bloc of stock was held by Overman and his out-of-town associates, though some shares were owned by Chicopee men, notably A.C. Woodworth, of the Ames Co., L.M. Ferry, and Luther White, a lawyer.

Overman, dapper, charismatic and somewhat flamboyant, quickly turned off most of Chicopee's established business leaders. He claimed to be an engineering wizard, but the evidence never supported his claim.

During the 18 years the company operated in Chicopee, he never lived here. A.C. 
Woodworth, James Tyler Ames's son-law, was his strongest local investor because most of Overman's bicycle manufacturing was done at the Ames plant on Springfield Street.

Local bankers were well aware that without the bicycle work, the Ames Co. would be out of business.

While manufacturing at the Springfield Street site, Overman hired two young men from Indiana to develop a steam-powered automobile. Charles and Frank Duryea quit because Overman failed to pay them on a regular basis.

Despite a growing concern about the man's integrity, L.L.Johnson writing in "Chicopee Illustrated" gushes: "Albert H Overman, president of the company has brought to bear on its interests a clear intelligence, and has studied the making of bicycles so thoroughly that the manufacture, under his careful management, is fast becoming a science. Very properly their wheel is named the Victor, the wheel itself proving that there is something in a name."

There is no doubt that Overman was producing a superior product. In 1887, he bought the Massachusetts Screw Co. in Chicopee Falls and moved his entire operation. The move nearly bankrupted the Ames Co.

Overman kept selling stock and borrowing money. Two years later, he built a new factory employing nearly 400 people. He launched a slick advertising campaign and long before Oreck and Purdue, he became the national spokesman for his bicycle.

He had become a major player in the booming national bicycle craze. The demand reached its peak in 1894. Overman employed over 1,200 workers and was hard pressed to meet the demand for the Victor bicycle.

Quoted frequently in the national press, Overman boasted, "Our factory is the only bicycle plant in the world where a complete bicycle is made from handlebars to tire. We claim that it costs more to build a Victor bicycle than any other bicycle on earth."

In response to the bicycle racing mania of the 1890s, Overman added that "instead 
of hiring men to ride our bicycles, we put the money into the construction of wheels 
themselves and make them good enough for people to pay our price to ride them. The 
discriminating purchaser wishing a first class wheel will buy a Victor."

He was, of course, wrong. People brought the cheaper, knock-off version of the Victor.

Enormous expansion occurred in the bicycle industry in 1895 and 1896, with brutal 
competition and price cutting which reached its height in 1897. As his company slid toward ruin, never losing his self-confidence, Overman tried to talk his stockholders 
into putting what was left of their money into the development of a steam-powered automobile.

The 1902 Victor Runabout is on display at the Larz Anderson Auto Museum in Brookline. The Victor, which sold for $1,000 and was steered by a tiller, was one of the first American cars constructed solely of metal.

By the time the company was ready for full-production, Albert H. Overman was technically broke, but his huge estate in New Hampshire, purchased with company 
money, was the property of his wife and children along with a substantial portfolio of stocks and bonds.

THEY ALSO USED TO MAKE SPORTING GOODS - IF you ever see a baseball glove with the Victor Mark snap it up - they are worth quite bit of money

Victor Athletic Goods was originally a branch of the Overman Wheel Co of Chicopee Falls, MA. In the early 1890"s Overman was one of the most popular bicycle makers in the U.S. with their flagship model called "The Victor". Overman bicycles were sold through A.G. Spalding"s western sales division in Denver CO. Charles Whitney was an executive for Spalding at the Denver headquarters. Spalding decided to enter the booming bicycle market as a manufacturer and dumped their inventory of "Victor" bicycles and opened a plant in Chicopee Falls. Charles Whitney moved to the new Spalding factory. Overman countered this direct assault by Spalding by creating a Sporting Goods Division featuring baseball equipment. Spalding countered by creating a nation-wide bicycle manufacturers association. Because of the bad blood, Overman refused to join the associaltion. Charles Whitney left the Spalding Co. in the late 1890's as the death knell was sounding for the Overman Wheel Co. Whitney bought the sporting goods division from Overman and in 1898 Victor Sporting Goods was formed.
The Overman Wheel Co. was one of the largest and best of the bicycle manufacturers in the 1890's. The "Victor" bicycles were sought after world wide due to the quality and ease of repairing with interchangeable parts. 1897 brought intense price competition and resulted in a cheapening of Overman bicycles to stay competitive. Overman almost immediately lost a lot of their former credibility and customer loyalty. Overman survived bankruptcy proceedings in 1898 by a restructuring of their debt with major banks. The athletic sporting goods division of Overman Wheel Co., started in 1893 was never much of a money maker. Overman was more than glad to sell the Athletic Goods side of the business to Charles Whitney in 1898 as he formed Victor Sporting Goods. Whitney used the Overman factory in Chicopee to manufacture his equipment until 1900 when Overman Wheel Co. closed for good and Whitney moved Victor Sporting Goods to Springfield MA.


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## tailhole (Apr 3, 2014)

*Update*

Mocked it up today, still need a chain (a long one - 20" from center of bb to center of rear dropouts) and much adjusting of the head set and bottom bracket.  
Thought I'd like the ride better with a teens Mesinger and some tillers.


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## fat tire trader (May 7, 2014)

While doing some research today, I found this Victor ad from 1919


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## fat tire trader (May 7, 2014)

And another


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## bricycle (Oct 27, 2017)

tailhole said:


> *It's a Victor*
> 
> I now believe this is a Victor.  It seemed the badge holes lined up and then I came across a catalog page. Now just to narrow down the year (brochure didn't have a year listed).
> Anyone know the years Victor was active or have a good guess on the year for this bike?
> ...




Do you know the date of that Green Victor brochure? Or any other Victor with that chain wheel(in brochure) thanks!


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## bricycle (Oct 27, 2017)

Do *ANYONE* know the date of that Green Victor brochure? Or any other Victor with that chain wheel(in brochure) thanks, bri.


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## Iverider (Oct 27, 2017)

I don't know the date, but Tailhole's "Victor" Frame shares a lot of similarities with some of the Simmons badged bikes I've seen out there. Tyler has this Simmons Westminster on his site that is sort of a resto-mod, but he mentions that it was built by Colson. http://luxlow.com/bicycles/1900s-simmons-arch-bar-fixed-gear-vintage-racer-bicycle-850/






Here is another that Nickinator posted awhile ago.



 
The thread contains more photos.
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/teens-simmons-westminster-arch-bar-frame.49097/

So while this doesn't answer your question Bri, I pose another question. WHO actually manufactured these bikes??? Is it Colson as Tyler has suggested? Or a Mead-like configuration where it's just a collection of parts with no single mfg.?


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## bricycle (Oct 27, 2017)

Thanks Bri.


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## David Brown (Oct 27, 2017)

A better way to go when blasting is get some one that does soda blasting.Does a great job and you don't have to use so much primer.Just my take on it.


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## Cowboy in NC (Oct 27, 2017)

Most Everybody is going with Victor, but I had a similar Racer Frame (wood wheels) tagged "Nassau" ---with four holed badge--- frame had identical "Fish Lug" assembly. I believe it was made by the Emblem Bicycle Company of Angola, NY , who bought out Pierce. One advertisement that I saw on Google shows an identical Bike...Research--"Nassau".
Mine was a racer and had a different fork and wheels---Cowboy


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