# Westfield Columbia G519 Frame Numbers



## Mercian (Dec 2, 2016)

Dear All,

Below is the Version 1 of the Westfield Columbia G519 list. This is a twin with the previously published Huffman Dayton G519 list below:

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/huffman-dayton-g519-frame-numbers.100336/

As before, I wold like to take the opportunity to thank those who have shared longer or shorter lists, which combined with my own make up the work here. I have had several very interesting conversations with these good people during the course of this research.

Notation: Most of the information has been taken from the internet, and other person's lists. This means that it was not always possible to get all the details of a bike; As a result, where it was not posssible to see a feature, or it was not reported, then I have put N/K (Not Known) even when it should be obvious what that feature is.

So, if your bike is listed, and has N/K fields and you would like me to add further information, or, if you would like me to correct the information, or, if your bike is not listed, and you would like me to add it, please answer below, or PM.

We still do not have a verified MF serial bike, if you have one it would be great. Currently, with 70 bikes listed, we have around 0.1%, or 1 in 1000 G519 bikes, so this is perhaps not surprising.






There should be a follow up version, shortly.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Mercian (Dec 2, 2016)

So, a few conclusions at this point, based on this and the longer Westfield list I'm compiling.

 - The BBFrame Numbernumber is the Year/month code for the frame manufacture.

H = 1941
J = 1942
K = 1943
L = 1944

 - Because the Serial Number year blocks from Mr Columbia sometimes show BB Frame Numbers from November and December of the previous year, at the beginning of the next year, it took at this point 4 to 8 weeks for a frame to be processed to a point that the Serial Number was stamped on it (this was even longer and more random before 1940 with smaller sales and a larger model range). 

 - I'm unsure when the Serial Numbers were stmped. I thought when the bike was finished, but that makes no sense, since the frame is painted after the numbers are applied, so at some point during the fit up process.

- Bikes were not numbered in large blocks, this is more obvious in a list including civilian models, but, for example, MG154118 (coincidentally, mine) sits in a block of otherwise Women's bikes. It makes no sense for a production line to stock all the parts necessary to fit up a womens, and then a man's bike, so I'm guessing more than one line, each specialising in a model, but the serial numbers are stamped before they go for final fit up. Perhaps just before painting (the paint shop would not be worried about the different models).

 - I would still like to know why the 'Sweetheart' chainring came in, I tought it was just late production, but then in 1944, they go back to Coffin chainrings for the late MC and MG bikes.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## MrColumbia (Dec 2, 2016)

When I worked there the serial numbers were stamped just before the frame went into the enamel department to be painted. They went straight from the stamping machine to the marshaling area where the frames go hung on the paint line.  

I assume but don't know for sure that the process was the same years earlier. Of course the Letter/number code was not used when I was there so that could have been put on before the crank hanger was even welded to the rest of the frame.


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## johan willaert (Dec 3, 2016)

Adrian,

MG138969 has a K6 code, which matches the others just above or below...


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## johan willaert (Dec 3, 2016)

I owned the this bicycle below in the mid-90s....

I bought it as shown below from a Dutch seller at the British War&Peace show in 1997... He had imported it from the US.

This bike had a Columbia headbadge and an MF serial number, and was fitted with balloon tires on two different rims with narrow spokes and New Departure hubs...
Don't know if the number was genuine, or if it was a real Columbia or even a Military model...
I sold this one around 2002 when I found my first MG model and had too many doubts about it...

As this was in pre-digital times I don't have many pictures of this bike and I will look in my old photo boxes to see if I can find more...


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## Mercian (Dec 3, 2016)

Hi Mr Columbia and Johan,

thanks for the additional information.

I would like to know the conclusions about this 'MF', which you were both involved with during the discussion, but there seems to have been no conclusion.

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=200509

Please PM me if you would like to comment privately.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Wackiforkhaki (Dec 4, 2016)

Hello, I have MG48766

Curved, Morrow, Coffin


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## Mercian (Dec 5, 2016)

Hi Wackiforkhaki.

Thank you for your contribution, I've updated the list ready for the next publication.

It's interesting that it's exactly 300 off this one, so would be very similar:

http://www.bergerwerke.com/restorationG519.html

Do you know what the BB code is? J3 or J4 at a guess?

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Wackiforkhaki (Dec 5, 2016)

Mercian said:


> Hi Wackiforkhaki.
> 
> Thank you for your contribution, I've updated the list ready for the next publication.
> 
> ...


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## Wackiforkhaki (Dec 5, 2016)

Where do I find the BB code?


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## Mercian (Dec 5, 2016)

Hi Wakiforkhaki;

a very fair question (-:






It's normally above the serial number. Here is my bike, MG154118,the BB number is K8,meaning the frame was made in August 1943. The bicycle would have been completed a few weeks after this. Yours will probably be J3 (March 1942), or possibly J4 (April 1942).. If something else, that would be interesting too.

Occasionally, the number is stamped upside down, and I have seen J3 that could be mistaken for J8, for example.

Why is it interesting? Well, it helps date the bike more precisely, and also you can see (as with the K8's listed above) that there were a lot all at once, possibly indicating a new contract. Ultimately, I'd like to try to allocate the known contract numbers, but it's more difficult than I thought it would be. Still, I have some ideas.

I hope this helps,

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Wackiforkhaki (Dec 5, 2016)

Found the mark, J3


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## Mercian (Dec 6, 2016)

Great, Wackiforkhaki,

Thanks for filling that blank in (-:

A+

Adrian


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## Mercian (Dec 18, 2016)

johan willaert said:


> I owned the this bicycle below in the mid-90s....
> 
> I bought it as shown below from a Dutch seller at the British War&Peace show in 1997... He had imported it from the US.
> 
> ...




Hi Johan,

I'm no bike expert, but the rear frame of this bike looks very like the Cleveland Welding one in post 330 here:

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/cleveland-welding-s-n-project.2705/page-17

so your suspicions were probably right.

Best Regards,

Adrian.

PS, hope to send you the G519 numbers this week.


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## Coslett (Dec 21, 2016)

Mercian -

Updates for you.  I own 2 G519's.

#54243 is curved bar with NO BB code.  Morrow hub is L2.  Pics are attached. Coffin chain ring. Unrestored.

#92217 is straight bar with 'J9' BB code.  Morrow hub I'm using is L3.  Coffin chain ring.  Restoration is ongoing.  I would be willing to trade the L3 hub I'm planning to use for an L6 orL7 hub.  If someone has an L6 orL7 to sell outright I'd be interested.


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## HUFFMANBILL (Dec 21, 2016)

Coslett said:


> Mercian -
> 
> Updates for you.  I own 2 G519's.
> 
> ...



The L3 Hub would be the correct one to use for #92217 with BB code J9 (Sept.,42). Morrow hub date codes use the letter L,M,N,O for the year 42,43,44,45. The numbers after the letter are 1-4 only.  Each number represents a quarter year. 1 - Jan.- Mar. 2 - Apr.-Jun. 3 - Jul.- Sept. 4 - Oct.-Dec.  So for a Sept.,42 frame the L3 (Jul.-Sept. 42) would be accurate.

Regards,
Bill


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## Coslett (Dec 21, 2016)

Thanks HuffmanBill -

Temporary brain fade on my part.  Was thinking the number after the letter was the month when I typed that.

Thanks, Scott


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## Mercian (Dec 22, 2016)

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the input, I'll ensure that the new details are in the next update.

MG54243 helps narrow the gap between curved and straight bar bikes, to find the changeover point. I'm slightly surprised there is no BB code, I would have thought J3 or J4, but it is what it is.

Also, as Bill says, L3 is an ideal Morrow code for frame MG92217.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## johan willaert (Mar 11, 2017)

Here's another one...

MG-156012-G519-Straight Bar-K8-Morrow-N/K-Sweetheart


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## Mercian (Mar 14, 2017)

Hi Johan,

Thanks for that, it's now added, plus another two or three since Christmas. One I've just been waiting for the current auction to finish before mentioning it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-WWI...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

MG119128, G519, Straight Bar, K2, Morrow, Coffin.

Another couple and I'll put up a revised list. Anyone got any more details to offer?

Thanks in Anticipation.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## johan willaert (Apr 3, 2017)

One more, located in France

MG-152553-G519-Straight Bar-K8-Morrow-N/K-Sweetheart


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## Mercian (Apr 4, 2017)

Hi Johan,

Thanks for that, now on the list.

Out of interest, can you tell me where in France (email privately if you prefer). Mine is a very similar frame number, and came from Champagne. It looks like a fair number of thses later K8 dated bikes made it to europe.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## johan willaert (Apr 4, 2017)

Now currently owned by someone in the Vosges (Eastern France) but said to have been found in the Normandy Carentan area...


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## Mercian (Apr 4, 2017)

OK, Johan, thanks for the further information.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Mercian (Apr 4, 2021)

Hi All,

Shockingly, it's about five years since I published a Military update, so, here it is.

As ever, if your bike is on here, and you wish to correct or add details, please contact me.

New frames welcome (-:






In addition to these I know of two more G519 where I don't have the details to put them on the list.

The scores for known Westfield Columbias at April 2021 are:

MF G519 = 2
MG G519 = 67 (plus the two unidentified)
MG M306 = 12
MC USMC? = 6

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Mountain Trail Andy (Apr 4, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Shockingly, it's about five years since I published a Military update, so, here it is.
> 
> ...




Thank you Adrian for all your effort and hard work, it is greatly appreciated!

Regards, Andy


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## Mercian (Nov 20, 2021)

Conversation tranferred from post 55 here: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/huffman-dayton-g519-frame-numbers.100336/page-6



altapat said:


> This is my Columbia MG 154241 w/ BB code K8. Will restore it pretty soon. Have completed the parts already .
> 
> View attachment 1515102


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## Mercian (Nov 20, 2021)

Conversation tranferred from post 56 here: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/huffman-dayton-g519-frame-numbers.100336/page-6



altapat said:


> Got this last week. Looks like a 1942.
> 
> View attachment 1515103
> 
> ...


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## Mercian (Nov 21, 2021)

Hi Alvin @altapat 

Thank you for the interesting information about the G519's on the Philippines, and I appreciate the offer of gathering more information when you return there. Between yourself and @schwinnphantom , this weekend has produced more 'new' frames than at any time since I initially compiled the list.

MG154241/K8 is an August 1943 frame, originally with an M2 or M3 (Quarter 2 or 3 1943) Morrow hub, and sweetheart type chainring. But these things often became swapped during repairs.

The closest known survivor is MG154118/K8, which was found in the Champagne region of France (these bikes got around). That bike was also a rebuild from a frame, but luckily retained it's original M2 dated Morrow hub. Coincidenally, it's my bike (-:

Incidentally, these frames are mixed in with the women's frames which were being made at the same time.





I still need to sort out the contract numbers properly for Columbias, they are more complex than for Huffmans, but I will publish them here when they are done.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Mercian (Nov 21, 2021)

Hi Alvin @altapat

MG87407 is, as you think, a 1942 frame, possibly J7, 8 or 9 (July to Sept 1942). Originially it would have had the Coffin style chainring, and an L2 or L3 (Quarter 2 or 3 1942) dated Morrow . It is one of the earliest of the straight bar frames.

MG87566 of @moparwrecker72  is the closest survivor I have recorded:









						G-519 Westfield Columbia finally done | Military Bicycles
					

Hi  Wanted to share pictures of my military Columbia.  Serial number MG87566.  I purchased this bicycle at a garage sale in the middle of Nebraska.  It was in pretty rough shape.  I would like to thank Howie the Bikeman and Alan from Bergerwerke bicycles for parts. Would also like to thank Johan...




					thecabe.com
				




Thanks again for your help.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## altapat (Nov 21, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Hi Alvin @altapat
> 
> MG87407 is, as you think, a 1942 frame, possibly J7, 8 or 9 (July to Sept 1942). Originially it would have had the Coffin style chainring, and an L2 or L3 (Quarter 2 or 3 1942) dated Morrow . It is one of the earliest of the straight bar frames.
> 
> ...




Thanks Adrian for the details you provided. Now the search for the elusive hubs begins.


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## johan willaert (Jan 25, 2022)

MG14220A now completely restored in France


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## Mercian (Jan 25, 2022)

Hi All,

The only earlier image I have seen of this bike is this S/N from @blackcat

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Goldslinger (Feb 1, 2022)

Hey all. Found another one . Saved it from being a klunker.
I can find no evidence of this ever being green. Were they ever painted navy gray from the factory? I see red primer and then gray and then a couple of layers of maroon.


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## Goldslinger (Feb 1, 2022)

Also just like my 42966 bike, no extra welds on it. This frame is in really nice shape. Very light J3 stamp.
I have found some OD paint in the BB .


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## Mercian (Feb 2, 2022)

Hi @Goldslinger 

Nice (-:

Thanks for sharing the details. Just to check, that is MG48708 / J3.? So a March 1942 frame. 

As you mention, brazed, not welded at this point, and it possibly had a brass headbadge. Like the other parts, it's a shame it's missing, it's something I'm trying to establish the changeover point for. Did any other parts survive 'Klunking'?

Possibly an L1 or L2 Morrow hub, again, I have few details on this.

It's unlikely that it would be painted grey at the factory (I see you've now found green paint). These bikes were not supplied on a Navy contract number, and it makes more sense logistically to paint everything green, and let the unit it is delivered to worry about the colour.

You have a lot of work there!

The nearest survivor so far recorded is here at post 7.









						Westfield Columbia G519 Frame Numbers | Military Bicycles
					

Dear All,  Below is the Version 1 of the Westfield Columbia G519 list. This is a twin with the previously published Huffman Dayton G519 list below:  http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/huffman-dayton-g519-frame-numbers.100336/  As before, I wold like to take the opportunity to thank those who have...




					thecabe.com
				




MG48766 / J3

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Yetifan (Apr 17, 2022)

Just picked up a G519 here in the UK. Somebody painted it black, so probably due a full resto. The frame no is MG16854 (might be MG10854 as black paint is a bit thick) 

I’m pretty happy as far as I can tell it’s all correct aside grips and tyres (I have its original tyres US Master)

thanks for any help


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## Mercian (Apr 17, 2022)

Hi @Yetifan 

When I lived in the UK, I only ever saw one original G519 for sale, somewhere in Wales. In those days I didn't know enough to take the serial number. They don't turn up often there, although there are photos and film of them being used on USAAF airfields.

As you know, if you've read this thread, I'm keeping a register of G519's as they appear, and I would certainly like to know more about this one.

The 'curved bar' frame indicates that it should have been made before around June 1942. The serial number is a little odd, and you may like to clean it to see what it is.. I've sent you a personal mail discussing it.

Thanks for showing it, and I look forward to seeing more as you work on it.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## johan willaert (Apr 20, 2022)

I saw this bike for sale on facebook last weekend and have seena photo of the frame number.
I believe it is most likely MG10854....Even if it is 16854 that would make it the earliest curved tube MG known.
The headbadge is most likely repro or at least post WW2 and seems to be glued to the frame rather than attached with small round head screws. Army frame had the screws mounted horizontally, while many civilian models have the holes in the frame vertically.
That was a very good price though....


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## Yetifan (Apr 20, 2022)

johan willaert said:


> I saw this bike for sale on facebook last weekend and have seena photo of the frame number.
> I believe it is most likely MG10854....Even if it is 16854 that would make it the earliest curved tube MG known.
> The headbadge is most likely repro or at least post WW2 and seems to be glued to the frame rather than attached with small round head screws. Army frame had the screws mounted horizontally, while many civilian models have the holes in the frame vertically.
> That was a very good price though....



Thanks.

currently taking it to bits to sort out that black paint. Have spoken a lot to Mercian on here, and a few small bits to sort like the head badge, it was added when last owner got the bike there was not one. It should have a brass one. Which I now need to find.


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## Mercian (Sep 4, 2022)

Hi All,

Here is Version 3 of the Columbia Military update, correct to September 2022.

As ever, if your bike is on here, and you wish to correct or add details, please contact me.

I would like to thank the many people who have contributed details to this table.

New frames welcome (-:






In addition to these I know of three more G519 where I don't have the details to put them on the list.

The scores for known Westfield Columbias at September 2022 are:

MF G519 = 3 (plus one unidentified)
MG G519 = 78 (plus the two unidentified)
MG M306 = 12
MC USMC? = 8

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Daniel (Nov 30, 2022)

Hi Adrian, 

I thought I'd add the details of my G519 for your register..  

Westfield Columbia G519 MG 136964  Straight K6 Sweetheart 

Best regards

Dan


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## Mercian (Nov 30, 2022)

Hi Dan @Daniel 

Thanks for passing on your details, every little bit helps. (-:

Yours is quite close to that of @johan willaert , who runs the Liberator website, I'm sure you've seen pages from:



			Military Bicycles
		


Did you find this one in the UK or import it? I just missed one in Wales some 20 years ago, and still wonder what became of it...

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Welbike (Dec 1, 2022)

Hi Adrian, just looked at the pictures of my Columbia, but the number is MF17418 not 9, or is that a different one?

See pictures, I have to make some new ones, these are from the bike still being in NY state.

Lex


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## Mercian (Dec 1, 2022)

Hi Lex,

Thanks for the pictures (-:

And , yes, I got the last number wrong, Sorry. 

I re-read the original thread, and it's correct there, so no excuses from me (-:

Updated list is as below.





Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Daniel (Dec 1, 2022)

Mercian said:


> Hi Dan @Daniel
> 
> Thanks for passing on your details, every little bit helps. (-:
> 
> ...



Hi Adrian,

Thanks for your reply.. Thats really interesting.. I will take another look on the liberator site.. some great info already gleaned there!

I found this bike advertised at a military show here in the UK, it was imported by the seller who wanted to build a tribute only to find it was an actual G519. Its complete and has had a refurbishment but really needs a full restoration. I am in the process of gathering parts for it and have just purchased a restored saddle to replace mine which is in poor shape from ebay US which is on its way.. a set of NOS bars to replace the pitted originals and a pair of amazing reproduced grips from the talented Kevin Carol should see it well on its way.. i have found the front fender light and a set of US Royal chain tyres but ideally need a rear fender and reflector if anyone has a source as its fairly damaged & has been cut down (for ease of wheel removal im guessing)  and the ellusive saddle bag pump & bell hopefully one day!
I also have a completely original untouched 2nd pattern BSA parabike in my workshops that i will send you the details of when i get a moment.. thanks for the effort you have put in to the register.. Its so interesting to see this info collated in one place and the patterns that emerge!

Best regards,

Dan


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## Mercian (Dec 1, 2022)

Hi Dan, @Daniel 

Thanks for your feedback (-:  I appreciate it.

That's quite surprising about the frame being an actual G519 in the end, I bet you were well pleased with that. I would be.

I'm sorry that I'm unable to help with any of your missing parts.

It was frustration with not knowing what the changes to G519's were and when which started this list. For the BSA parabike, I held off doing it because I thught there was one in progress, (there wasn't) and that, other than 1st or 2nd pattern, they were essentially all the same. They aren't.

I should have a listing similar to the G519 list out very soon, and your details for that will be welcome.

Here's the start of the 2nd Pattern list, there's about 270 examples listed now. Thanks for the help of those who have contributed.







Best Regards,

Adrian


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## johan willaert (Dec 1, 2022)

Hi Adrian,

I see this one is still missing from your list... MG158655 Most likely K8
I spotted it back in June 2015 in front of a souvenir shop in Arromanches, Normandy.
Heavily modified/butchered but still an original frame and some parts...
Don't know where it went afterwards...


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## Mercian (Dec 1, 2022)

Hi Johan, @johan willaert 

Thanks for that (-:

As I said above, every little helps, and this one is the latest known of the penultimate contract, extending the possible range out by 1000 frames. 

As you said, missing parts, but the Sweetheart chainwheel is still there, almost the last made like that before they reverted to the  Coffin type.

It fits right in to @blackcat 's collecting preference, bikes that were used in Europe. It seems that there are more of these later bikes that made it over here, which makes sense, since the early bikes would have been supplied for use in the US, then these shipped direct to Europe later.

Best Regards,

Adrian

PS, as we say in the UK, it's like buses, none come for a long time, and then there are two at once. (-:


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## blackcat (Dec 1, 2022)

johan willaert said:


> Hi Adrian,
> 
> I see this one is still missing from your list... MG158655 Most likely K8
> I spotted it back in June 2015 in front of a souvenir shop in Arromanches, Normandy.
> ...




Hello Johan;
It's a nice base for restoration as i like   😺
I have never heard of this one.
Regards;
Serge


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## johan willaert (Dec 2, 2022)

Daniel said:


> Thats really interesting.. I will take another look on the liberator site.. some great info already gleaned there!




Thanks, here is a better and full view of my MG138969, restored but all original
came from the Huertgen Forest region, Germany, roughly 20 years ago


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