# Help with any information regarding this schwinn new world racer



## Darj (Apr 7, 2021)

I believe it to be late 30’s,has an interesting front fork..purportedly raced in the Olympics but no way to verify..any help would be appreciated


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## 3-speeder (Apr 7, 2021)

Interesting fork alright.  With the rear dropouts instead of rear facing forks I would think the earliest it might be is '39 maybe.  Post a picture of the serial number under the bottom bracket and we can run it through @Miq 's database . Curious about the chainring. Might be a replacement.


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## Darj (Apr 7, 2021)

Will do after work


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## rennfaron (Apr 7, 2021)

That should be the correct chainring for a NW racer at that time.


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## rennfaron (Apr 7, 2021)

Also is that a Persons majestic TRACK RACER saddle? Looks like it and would be correct if so.


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## Darj (Apr 7, 2021)




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## GTs58 (Apr 7, 2021)

Looks pretty much all original, but the fork has been customized. The serial number will help pin point the year but it's either a 1940 or 41 model. Those years had the rear drop out fork ends and the 39 didn't. I wonder if the front wheel was replaced after the fork was customized.


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## Miq (Apr 7, 2021)

I’m guessing 1940 D Serial too. Love seeing these old racers. @Darj please post a pic of the serial number under the bottom bracket and I’ll add it to the list. Great bike!


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)




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## Oilit (Apr 8, 2021)

With that fork, I'd guess that it's been bent back in a front end crash and then turned around backward instead of straightened. If they're pushed back far enough, it gives roughly the same offset. But it's an interesting bike, and the frame looks straight.


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)

The forks are definitely not bent due to a crash


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## Oilit (Apr 8, 2021)

There's one on EBay right now that's similar to the one you posted:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1940-SCHWI...-PRE-PARAMOUNT/184558045580?campid=5335809022- and it has the fork I would expect to see on your bike. But maybe I've been looking at Craig's List ads too long.


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## 1motime (Apr 8, 2021)

Oilit said:


> With that fork, I'd guess that it's been bent back in a front end crash and then turned around backward instead of straightened. If they're pushed back far enough, it gives roughly the same offset. But it's an interesting bike, and the frame looks straight.



If that is actually the case it is some very talented and creative tube bending!  If it steers straight!  Lots of work to save a piece of metal.
The paint and pins look to match the frame.  If it was straightened not much paint would have survived.  Unless an old match.  Perhaps lost to history


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## rennfaron (Apr 8, 2021)

Oilit said:


> There's one on EBay right now that's similar to the one you posted:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1940-SCHWI...-PRE-PARAMOUNT/184558045580?campid=5335809022- and it has the fork I would expect to see on your bike. But maybe I've been looking at Craig's List ads too long.



I have a bunch of NWs and NW Racers archived and none of them have a fork like that. So this has to be a custom job. And @Oilit you're right, all the forks look like that. Note, there is a difference in the fork between the regular NW and the NW Racer, but it is just a slight difference. 

Just found this, it looks like this fork discussion was tackled before by a previous owner of the bike. 
Here is a good comment about fork bending and the post below it is pretty interesting. 

I feel like I have seen a lot more examples like these, but can't find more of them... I know nothing of racing bikes or why this is an advantage...


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## Oilit (Apr 8, 2021)

rennfaron said:


> I have a bunch of NWs and NW Racers archived and none of them have a fork like that. So this has to be a custom job. And @Oilit you're right, all the forks look like that. Note, there is a difference in the fork between the regular NW and the NW Racer, but it is just a slight difference.
> 
> Just found this, it looks like this fork discussion was tackled before by a previous owner of the bike.
> Here is a good comment about fork bending and the post below it is pretty interesting.
> ...



Good links! And you're right, it looks like the same bike.


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)

Oilit said:


> Good links! And you're right, it looks like the same bike.



It is the same bike..I also don’t believe the fork is from a crash..either original or custom bent by a shop..


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## rennfaron (Apr 8, 2021)

Darj said:


> It is the same bike..I also don’t believe the fork is from a crash..either original or custom bent by a shop..



I agree. Each leg of the fork looks a mirror of the other. It definitely looks intentional...


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## Oilit (Apr 8, 2021)

Darj said:


> It is the same bike..I also don’t believe the fork is from a crash..either original or custom bent by a shop..



The fork does look symmetric. I could be wrong.


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## rennfaron (Apr 8, 2021)

Diadrant fork design - https://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/classic_builders/bates-cycles/bates-cycles-3-diadrant-forks/
Interesting - “...the idea was to create a straighter fork for a lively feel, but with the addition of an extra curve to help damp out road shocks.”


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)

Thanks for the link


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## Andrew Gorman (Apr 8, 2021)

The chainring looks like a Williams- there is one on my 1947(?) New World fixie.  The story on it is that it was a rental bike at a local velodrome- there were several around here at that time.


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)

Andrew Gorman said:


> The chainring looks like a Williams- there is one on my 1947(?) New World fixie.  The story on it is that it was a rental bike at a local velodrome- there were several around here at that time.



Sorry unsure if you mean my bicycle was a rental?


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## kccomet (Apr 8, 2021)

very cool bike, remember when it was on Facebook, talked to the owner, couldn't get a price. quite the discussion about the forks when it was on fb. my take was and still is, done by a shop, to resemble diadrant forks like on bates bikes. I love the bike, I wish I could have got it.


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## GTs58 (Apr 8, 2021)

kccomet said:


> very cool bike, remember when it was on Facebook, talked to the owner, couldn't get a price. quite the discussion about the forks when it was on fb. my take was and still is, done by a shop, to resemble diadrant forks like on bates bikes. I love the bike, I wish I could have got it.



 So why is the paint worn off the down tube then? I've seen more than a handful of New World forks that were severely bent like that, but they weren't flipped around. Usually when a fork gets bent that bad from a crash the top and down tubes are also jacked up and this one appears to be undamaged.


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)

Yeah The Whole  story of the bike was really sketchy..from the people I bought it off to the previous owners unfortunate passing..I fell in love with it instantly.it has a presence to her and makes for a good conversation piece..this bike is like a 6 degrees of separation situation


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## GTs58 (Apr 8, 2021)

Did @Miq chime in and tell you that it's a 1940 and he won the bet saying it was a D serial?


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## rennfaron (Apr 8, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> So why is the paint worn off the down tube then?



Are you thinking that is from the tire rubbing? Seems too low. If so, @Darj could just flip the fork around and take another profile pic to see.


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)

rennfaron said:


> Are you thinking that is from the tire rubbing? Seems too low. If so, @Darj could just flip the fork around and take another profile pic to see.


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## kccomet (Apr 8, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> So why is the paint worn off the down tube then? I've seen more than a handful of New World forks that were severely bent like that, but they weren't flipped around. Usually when a fork gets bent that bad from a crash the top and down tubes are also jacked up and this one appears to be undamaged.



not sure what you mean about the worn paint on downtube, looks like normal patina.  I don't know about sketchy, but she was in Canada, which I see your from, glad it worked out for you. if you get tired of it...let me know


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)

Darj said:


> View attachment 1388099



That’s the best I could do,the bars are in the way..if they weren’t there’s no way the tire would clear.plus the paint wear doesn’t match


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## rennfaron (Apr 8, 2021)

kccomet said:


> not sure what you mean about the worn paint on downtube, looks like normal patina.  I don't know about sketchy, but she was in Canada, which I see your from, glad it worked out for you. if you get tired of it...let me know



@GTs58  is talking about this wear... right above the chainring


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## rennfaron (Apr 8, 2021)

Darj said:


> View attachment 1388099



No way you could ride it turned around...


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## Miq (Apr 8, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> Did @Miq chime in and tell you that it's a 1940 and he won the bet saying it was a D serial?



It fits nicely between a red racer and another white racer on the list.


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## GTs58 (Apr 8, 2021)

Well that picture tells the story, and the frame isn't bent so the fork must have intentionally been bent like that. Dr. Watson agrees.


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## rustjunkie (Apr 8, 2021)

forks like this show up from time to time with the same debate, and the same conclusion:

they’re not factory, or custom, or supposed to be this way
they’re simply bent


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## GTs58 (Apr 8, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> forks like this show up from time to time with the same debate, and the same conclusion:
> 
> they’re not factory, or custom, or supposed to be this way
> they’re bent




I know of another Racer that has a bent fork and not near as bad as this one. And the frame is also tweaked pretty good.


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)

rennfaron said:


> @GTs58  is talking about this wear... right above the chainring
> 
> View attachment 1388110


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## Darj (Apr 8, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> forks like this show up from time to time with the same debate, and the same conclusion:
> 
> they’re not factory, or custom, or supposed to be this way
> they’re simply bent



They’re not just simply bent..forks just don’t conveniently bend like this on impact and and show zero damage in any other areas..totally disagree


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## SirMike1983 (Apr 8, 2021)

My experience with New World forks, both prewar and postwar, is that they are prone to accidental bending, but not in that location. I'm sure it's possible to do that accidentally, but when they bend, they love to bend up close to the shoulders or in the steerer tube area. That's not to say an accident in this case is impossible, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence of an accident in these pictures. The top and down tubes look OK to me from these photos. Same the steerer tube.

And it looks to me as if both blades are equally bent, and bent in the same place. Also present are the indications of a track bike - wood wheels, no hand brakes, and what appears to be no coaster brake. It may be a fixed gear hub, not sure about that. The bars and stem are similar to track items.

So if I had to weigh the balance of the evidence, I'd say this is a non-factory fork bend done to set this bike up as a track bike. The catalog shows a more or less normal fork on the New World racer model, but then again the New World is very slack compared to bikes devoted to track racing or training.

This leads to a bit about fork rake. Fork rake is the distance between the axle and an imaginary line through the head tube. Let's say you bend the fork so the front wheel moves forward, away from the frame. That pushes the axle further in front of the head angle. That increases rake and causes slacker steering. This gives you more stability at low speeds over bumpy roads, but a somewhat slower steering input. Rod brake English roadsters often have very slack angles and long rake for this reason.

Now if you bend the fork blades back toward the frame, and this has to be done carefully, as you see on the Bates bikes earlier in the thread. That reduces the fork rake and pulls the axle closer to the frame. This provides acceptable stability at high speeds, but a twitchier steering that reduces the amount of force you need to cause the bike to deviate from a straight path. In a track setting, you have a smooth surface at high speeds, so the concern is altering the steering to feel comfortable for the track rider. Some track riders want very sensitive steering because of the tight setting of training or group racing. Slight alterations by the rider work well without having to resort to extra force to steer or move.

Given all of this, my view is the bends are intentional, but not factory. They were done to convert a bike that was a New World racer model to a more track-friendly machine. I could be proven wrong, but this makes sense to me.


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## rennfaron (Apr 8, 2021)

Here is a traveler I have that has the signs of a big fork and frame bending whamo. Top tube has the typical hump right behind the head tube. All the ones I see that have significant fork bends have a nice big hump.


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## Oilit (Apr 9, 2021)

rennfaron said:


> Here is a traveler I have that has the signs of a big fork and frame bending whamo. Top tube has the typical hump right behind the head tube. All the ones I see that have significant fork bends have a nice big hump. View attachment 1388125



I've got a Traveler that has the same hump in the top tube, but not as bad. The fork is straight, but it could be a replacement. I've been using it as a beater, and I can confirm it's got a "twitchier" feel than an unbent Traveler. At the other end f the spectrum, here's a "Camro" ('50's English) that was for sale on Facebook (in NJ). Talk about slack! If it had been closer, I would have got it just to try it.


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## Andrew Gorman (Apr 9, 2021)

I like that Camro!


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## Andrew Gorman (Apr 9, 2021)

Darj- I just meant that the story on my bike was that it and it alone was a velodrome rental bike.  There is a big jump in quality and geometry between a New World and a purpose built, serious track bike.  The high gearing ,wood rims and no brakes on your bike point towards it being used on a track.  Just out of curiosity, what size are the rims/tires and what pedals are on the bike?


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## Miq (Apr 11, 2021)

@Darj I added your Racer to our NW list.


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## SirMike1983 (Apr 11, 2021)

I agree about the step up between a New World Racer and a dedicated track bike for competition. I wonder if this was something someone was using for training or to get into track riding. A basic New World racer with a few modifications could have been a cost-effective way to train or for a beginner to try out riding on a track. We may never know for sure, but hey, it must have served a purpose at the track back in the day.


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Apr 12, 2021)

Richard Schwinn might have some knowledge of the track bicycles.


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## Oilit (Apr 12, 2021)

GiovanniLiCalsi said:


> Richard Schwinn might have some knowledge of the track bicycles.



I think he's a member here. @Richard.Schwinn


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