# Schwinn Base Coat



## GTs58 (Jul 17, 2019)

Does anyone know if 1955 was the last year of the gold base coat on the Opal colors? And was it just used with the Red colors? I've only seen this situation on the Opal Red bikes that were 54 and 55 models.


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## Jeff54 (Jul 18, 2019)

That is NOT "gold base coat" The color shift from red to an orange-ish-gold tone is due to sitting in the sun for several years, (Ultra violet rays exposure).the silver/aluminum coat does not fade as much under the clear red top finish coat. Clearly protected somewhat from Ultra violet rays by the decal, as seen in the chain guard.  "Gold base coat" Nonsense: Fore Peat's sake how many timeds ave fact vs fiction over this faded color have you been told ? Take off the head badge on a faded Opel red Schwinn and crap "gold tone" faded red is revealed  Proof positive it's just crap clear red top coat 'Candy apple red' with no ultra violet protection in Schwinn's paint producer. >>>>>
>>>


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## schwinnlax (Jul 18, 2019)

I've often wondered if that is the color opal red fades to in too much sun rather than it being a base coat showing through.


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## spoker (Jul 18, 2019)

no uv in the paint in those days


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## Jeff54 (Jul 18, 2019)

schwinnlax said:


> I've often wondered if that is the color opal red fades to in too much sun rather than it being a base coat showing through.



Indeed. Here's a macro shot of the front post on 1955 ' sun faded frame and chain guard to a orange-ish-gold tone,  Corvette, I posted. polished it smooth and glossy,  down to reveal the multiple coatings un-molested by ultra violet rays, under the head badge. Silvery  flakes and  crackle that creates the Opel-like effect base. The Crackle appears red but it's not as it seems rather. it's either within the silver mixture or a separate clear red  coating on the flakes.  Finally,  Top coated with clear red, known in the 1950's and there after as 'Candy Apple red' . B/C it's what  cinnamon clear red candy apples were made like.  I did not grind or sand this, which appears to be 100 grit,  it's what Schwinn did to the bare metal  before painting coat the red lead primer on. I guess this helped the paint stick to metal.


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## spoker (Jul 18, 2019)

candy paint was invented by one of the old customizer guys in the mid 50s,candy paint is nor just thin paint,its made from toners that are used to tint paint,this was b4 paint companies invented or used uv in there paints,uv is like sun block,it blocks the suns ultra violet rays there for preventing color fade,i think it was gene winfield who first discoverd candy apple painting,was multiple coats or laquer[up to 20]coats,usually had a host of longevity problems just like schwinn bikes 

]


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## GTs58 (Jul 18, 2019)

Boy, some really good info here and the terminology is just flat out exquisite! Never heard of clear red before but I'm always open to learn. I'm no paint expert like Jeff, but I've had quite a bit of experience in paint and painting and something is going on with these early Opal Red bikes from say 1954 and 1955. I've also come across a vast amount of translucent Red Schwinn bikes where the red paint has faded and no other years have this gold hue when the red is gone or faded, NEVER. I've seen a Radiant Red Varsity where all the red was gone with just a few hidden areas were there was still traces of red. That bike was all bright silver and no sign of any gold anywhere from either paint or UV damaged red paint. Over the years I've seen many 54 and 55 Opal Red bikes were there is a gold tone after all the translucent red paint has vanished. I believe there was what the experts call "a piss coat" of gold shot over the silver base coat on these 54 and 55's and that's pretty evident in the pictures. 

Here's a faded worn 1959 and no signs of gold. Then the 54 Jag where the red was long gone years ago. Note the cantilever bar where it's scratched. Gold then silver then primer. And a few other shots of that Corvette.

Just a note. I have talked to the owner of that Jag about the paint after it was purchased from hzqw2l


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## schwinnlax (Jul 19, 2019)

Presumably the original paint is still there under the decals (chain guard, seat tube).  That being the case, the original red paint is still there under the decals, and not somehow scraped or worn off.  Unless the red paint faded to clear revealing a gold coat underneath, it has to be the red paint that faded to gold.  Just using logic here...


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## rennfaron (Jul 19, 2019)

'53 red to gold.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schwinn-Tr...mey-Archer-3-speed-orig-Survivor/153476596849


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## schwinnlax (Jul 19, 2019)

rennfaron said:


> '53 red to gold.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schwinn-Tr...mey-Archer-3-speed-orig-Survivor/153476596849



Good example.  It's possible this effect is not entirely caused by sunlight UV.  Red pigments in general are notorious for fading over time.  Schwinn may also have had a poor formulation of red paint those years that chemically decomposed over time leaving a more gold color.


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## Jeff54 (Jul 19, 2019)

GTs58 said:


> Boy, some really good info here and the terminology is just flat out exquisite! Never heard of clear red before but I'm always open to learn. I'm no paint expert like Jeff, but I've had quite a bit of experience in paint and painting and something is going on with these early Opal Red bikes from say 1954 and 1955. I've also come across a vast amount of translucent Red Schwinn bikes where the red paint has faded and no other years have this gold hue when the red is gone or faded, NEVER. I've seen a Radiant Red Varsity where all the red was gone with just a few hidden areas were there was still traces of red. That bike was all bright silver and no sign of any gold anywhere from either paint or UV damaged red paint. Over the years I've seen many 54 and 55 Opal Red bikes were there is a gold tone after all the translucent red paint has vanished. I believe there was what the experts call "a piss coat" of gold shot over the silver base coat on these 54 and 55's and that's pretty evident in the pictures.
> 
> Here's a faded worn 1959 and no signs of gold. Then the 54 Jag where the red was long gone years ago. Note the cantilever bar where it's scratched. Gold then silver then primer. And a few other shots of that Corvette.
> 
> ...



As you're clearly attempting to undermine me for my usage of the term of 'clear red' vs transparent . Not to forget stalking me for years too.   Yet little do you know or understand ]quote GTs58, ";I've also come across a vast amount of translucent Red Schwinn bikes where the red paint has faded a vast amount of translucent Red Schwinn bikes"

Translucent  you say?  is semitransparent and Schwinn's top coats, at least into the 1980's ,metallic type of colors, are all transparent. . 1 ,more time: their top coat is transparent, (clear that's tinted with a color  but many think of transparent as translucent too. 

So, B/C I've discussed transparent, semi and translucent colors for more than 20 years in sites like this, for whatever reason people seem to visualize it's completely transparent when 'clear' (an incorrect word or term) is added when describing the color. .  Yet clear is not a color, but 'clear red' is, Go figure? In the mean time stop this nonsense of stocking me, calling me a pot head in topics . Not to leave out ignorance in this nonsense of a gold base under opal red. jeez. Unlike U I own a 55  faded to gold corvette, and the evidence; you're miles off reality, are the photos I've provided,[wink]l' Hint: guaranteed; dopes are the self proclaimed experts or wizards.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 19, 2019)

Probably walking into the middle of a poo storm here but Schwinn didn’t use a gold base coat on these. I’ve seen a ‘57 Phantom where one side was gold and the other red. The red oxidizes and turns to a gold color


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## GTs58 (Jul 19, 2019)

Quote: 
_What color is apple red?
Candy apple red (occasionally known as apple-candy red) is the name code used by manufacturing companies to define a shade of red similar to the red sugar coating on candied apples. The typical method for producing a candy apple finish is to apply a *metallic* base-coat, followed by a *translucent* color coat._

I've seen faded out red paint over the years and being in Arizona where the sun kills all paint, I have never seen a red paint fade out to gold. And if one thinks it does, why does this situation seem to be happening only to Schwinn's early Opal? And why doesn't this happen on every candy Red bike that Schwinn produced? Maybe a paint chemist can answer the questions.


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## razinhellcustomz (Jul 19, 2019)

Jeff54 said:


> That is NOT "gold base coat" The color shift from red to an orange-ish-gold tone is due to sitting in the sun for several years, (Ultra violet rays exposure).the silver/aluminum coat does not fade as much under the clear red top finish coat. Clearly protected somewhat from Ultra violet rays by the decal, as seen in the chain guard.  "Gold base coat" Nonsense: Fore Peat's sake how many timeds ave fact vs fiction over this faded color have you been told ? Take off the head badge on a faded Opel red Schwinn and crap "gold tone" faded red is revealed  Proof positive it's just crap clear red top coat 'Candy apple red' with no ultra violet protection in Schwinn's paint producer. >>>>>
> >>> View attachment 1031953





Jeff54 said:


> As you're clearly attempting to undermine me for my usage of the term of 'clear red' vs transparent . Not to forget stalking me for years too.   Yet little do you know or understand ]quote GTs58, ";I've also come across a vast amount of translucent Red Schwinn bikes where the red paint has faded a vast amount of translucent Red Schwinn bikes"
> 
> Translucent  you say?  is semitransparent and Schwinn's top coats, at least into the 1980's ,metallic type of colors, are all transparent. . 1 ,more time: their top coat is transparent, (clear that's tinted with a color  but many think of transparent as translucent too.
> 
> So, B/C I've discussed transparent, semi and translucent colors for more than 20 years in sites like this, for whatever reason people seem to visualize it's completely transparent when 'clear' (an incorrect word or term) is added when describing the color. .  Yet clear is not a color, but 'clear red' is, Go figure? In the mean time stop this nonsense of stocking me, calling me a pot head in topics . Not to leave out ignorance in this nonsense of a gold base under opal red. jeez. Unlike U I own a 55  faded to gold corvette, and the evidence; you're miles off reality, are the photos I've provided,[wink]l' Hint: guaranteed; dopes are the self proclaimed experts or wizards.



I would like to know what base coat was used for the coppertone color? Thanks from  a FLAPPER ACCORDING TO GTS58. Thanks. Razin.


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## razinhellcustomz (Jul 19, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> Probably walking into the middle of a poo storm here but Schwinn didn’t use a gold base coat on these. I’ve seen a ‘57 Phantom where one side was hold and the other red. The red oxidizes and turns to a gold color



I would agree , Shawn. I have several red schwinns that have done the same thing due to years of exposure to the UV rays ETC. Thanks. Razin.


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## razinhellcustomz (Jul 19, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> Probably walking into the middle of a poo storm here but Schwinn didn’t use a gold base coat on these. I’ve seen a ‘57 Phantom where one side was hold and the other red. The red oxidizes and turns to a gold color



I would agree , Shawn. I have several red schwinns that have done the same thing due to years of exposure to the UV rays ETC. Thanks. Razin.


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## Mark Johnston (Jul 19, 2019)

Don’t know if this helps, but I managed to recreate a decent Coppertone  using Duplicolor “Chrome” engine paint for a base, with a light coat of Duplicolor “Copper” over it.


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## GTs58 (Jul 19, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> Probably walking into the middle of a poo storm here but Schwinn didn’t use a gold base coat on these. I’ve seen a ‘57 Phantom where one side was hold and the other red. The red oxidizes and turns to a gold color




Are you 100% sure of that? Can you prove this is the case with these examples? 
A true red does not use any other pigmentation to where the red would fade out leaving a gold color and red does not oxidize turning to gold. Candy Apple Red as they call it was normally shot over a silver or gold base, usually a metallic or metalflake, depending on what the final desired color was. A gold base gave the red candy a warmer and darker shade of red, and I don't understand how anyone would say Schwinn never used gold under some of their Opal colors.
Maybe @mrg can take a close look at his example and tell us what he thinks. It sure looks like a piss coat of gold over a silver base when the red pigmentation completely faded away.  










No gold what so ever on @vincev Red Klunker.

Quote: Thanks for the info.It was from out west and the paint is really faded away but a resto would ruin it for me.







I hate to bother him, but @Metacortex has a collection of Schwinn Reporters and this topic might be mentioned in one of the issues.


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## razinhellcustomz (Jul 20, 2019)

Mark Johnston said:


> Don’t know if this helps, but I managed to recreate a decent Coppertone  using Duplicolor “Chrome” engine paint for a base, with a light coat of Duplicolor “Copper” over it.View attachment 1032722
> 
> View attachment 1032721



I like the way that your american turned out. What year is this? Thanks. Razin. P.S. Beautiful bike. Ride On.


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## Mark Johnston (Jul 20, 2019)

razinhellcustomz said:


> I like the way that your american turned out. What year is this? Thanks. Razin. P.S. Beautiful bike. Ride On.



I no longer own it. I think it was a 1964


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## Metacortex (Jul 20, 2019)

I'm no expert on paint but I can contribute this: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/schwinn-paint-process.86284/


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## spoker (Jul 20, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> Probably walking into the middle of a poo storm here but Schwinn didn’t use a gold base coat on these. I’ve seen a ‘57 Phantom where one side was hold and the other red. The red oxidizes and turns to a gold color



yep


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## spoker (Jul 20, 2019)

its simple,all you have to do is look at what sun does to car paint in a place like texas, you see car ports all over the south non in minnesota,look at alot of southern muscle cars,painted white tops sun damage,alightweight bike was prolly keept inside/ballooners were left outside prolly lying down after the kickstand wasnt used,just get off and let it lay down,sound familiar?


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## Allrounderco (Jul 20, 2019)

I’ll try to find time to pull my ‘55 Opal red Vette out today. I always thought mine was as faded as they come, but some of the bikes posted in this thread are on a different level. I don’t think I have any gold (either from fading or scratches) on mine, but don’t mind sacrificing a bit of paint for scientific purposes.


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## PCHiggin (Jul 20, 2019)

So,Do you guys like fire pits?


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## fattyre (Jul 20, 2019)

Often times I wonder-  Schwinn being such a large business for so long where are all the people who worked there and how come we have so few first hand accounts of anything?   So much speculation. Even on products that were made only 30 or 40 years ago?


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## rustjunkie (Jul 20, 2019)

I know beans about this but if there were gold over silver then it seems one would expect to see gold in this protected area between the cantilever and top tube:






also,. schwinn paint was sold in cans, including the silver base. Anyone ever see gold base?
Any catalogs showing cans of paint available?


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## razinhellcustomz (Jul 20, 2019)

Awesome! Bet you wish you still had it. Oh Well, Easy come go. Their's lots more where they came from. Ride On. Razin. The color looks to be more of a burnt orange than copper , but still looks good on this bike.


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## GTs58 (Jul 20, 2019)

rustjunkie said:


> I know beans about this but if there were gold over silver then it seems one would expect to see gold in this protected area between the cantilever and top tube:
> 
> View attachment 1032839
> 
> ...




I thought that shot was pretty interesting. I've never seen any Schwinn lit showing cans of their touch up paint until the 60's. The Opal Reds during these first few years definitely had a major flaw in it's chemical make up. I've also noticed that in these first few years the Red was also much darker than the Red on the 56 and later production, other than the Phantom's when they came out with the Opal paint. It seems the later Opals starting in 56 wasn't prone to this crazy fading issue.

Here are the shots of that 53 Traveler that rennfaron posted above. Great example of whatever is going on with this paint and seeing the paint on the steer tubes might tell the story.


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## schwinnlax (Jul 20, 2019)

GTs58 said:


> Maybe a paint chemist can answer the questions.




I'm a chemist and I answered this in post #10.



GTs58 said:


> Are you 100% sure of that?
> A true red does not use any other pigmentation to where the red would fade out leaving a gold color and red does not oxidize turning to gold.



This is incorrect.  Paints are made up of many chemicals and may be a mixture of pigments.  Red (like any color) can be a mixture of chemicals and pigments to give the exact color desired.  As I already said, seems most likely that schwinn had a paint formulation in the mid '50s that was prone to chemical ageing where the pigment in the red region of the spectrum degraded/decomposed leaving other pigment(s) that did not decompose, which results in the gold color you are seeing in all the pictures.  Again, use logic.  How can you be seeing a gold base coat UNDER decals?


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## WetDogGraphix (Jul 20, 2019)

schwinnlax said:


> I'm a chemist and I answered this in post #10.
> 
> 
> This is incorrect.  Paints are made up of many chemicals and may be a mixture of pigments.  Red (like any color) can be a mixture of chemicals and pigments to give the exact color desired.  As I already said, seems most likely that schwinn had a paint formulation in the mid '50s that was prone to chemical ageing where the pigment in the red region of the spectrum degraded/decomposed leaving other pigment(s) that did not decompose, which results in the gold color you are seeing in all the pictures.  Again, use logic.  How can you be seeing a gold base coat UNDER decals?




Are you an Automotive paint chemist?


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## schwinnlax (Jul 21, 2019)

No, I'm a professor of chemistry at a state university.  What's your background?


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## WetDogGraphix (Jul 21, 2019)

schwinnlax said:


> No, I'm a professor of chemistry at a state university.  What's your background?



Nothing personal, just asking....     Me......Okie/shade-tree painter, 45 years. Thus, my logo. Oh, also artist, drew the logo in 1983.....With you being a Professor, do I need to show my work?


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## Jeff54 (Jul 23, 2019)

fattyre said:


> Often times I wonder-  Schwinn being such a large business for so long where are all the people who worked there and how come we have so few first hand accounts of anything?   So much speculation. Even on products that were made only 30 or 40 years ago?



I can answer some of this. As a collector and researcher for missing info for several years. Digging through patents joining different groups that are hunting for factory relics and advertisements plus, plus! There is very little to be found, few to no first hand people especially the older it is. And most of those who are or were alive, workers input, hardly knew the whole operation.  In most cases when a factory goes under or changes hands, it's not like they expected or cared much about some dumb nut collector that would come along begging for info. Nor would one create storage space for 30, 40, 100-200 year.   In a few cases though, docs and examples have been found in attics or basements of family members, but in most it would have no value to them and trashed.   I mean it's not like collectors are knocking at their doors when stored junk had no value. Spring cleaning, or sale of a factory owner's sold their residence junk was trashed. In Schwinn's case, some items were saved by the family, but not much. It's likely  tons of info was trashed when head quarters was moved to bolder.

I sold 100's of Mattel products as a kid.  Hot wheels, Barbie's, thing makers gobalty (sp)-goop, Varoom plastic motors, you name and I had it.  My little sister had the largest collection of Barbee stuff. Ya tinks it was kept when she was 18? Nope, spring cleaning  trashed all but 1 Barbee and dress. . And I know where 1,000 s and 1,000's more are,. Prob a ton of old factory docs too.  Right were I got my stock where Mattel dumped retired and discounted {discontinued, I meant} stock: . The La Puente City dump. All U need to do is excavate 20-30 feet under the Sheraton hotel  and golf course they built around 1975, [grin].


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## GTs58 (Aug 3, 2019)

Although this isn't an old Schwinn, it was painted with a silver base and then had a candy red color coat applied. The red colorant in the paint has almost completely faded out leaving just the color of the original base coat.


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## mrg (Aug 3, 2019)

I don't have time now to read this whole thread but my Jag sure seems like it has a gold ( piss ) coat under red over silver and I thing I have seen Schwinn cans of gold undercoat, I'll have to search some catalogs. Always thought this was a neat after the surrounding red faded then the white decal finely gave way reveling og red. this bike was weird, when I stripped the house paint off there seemed to be silver and gold undercoat and shades of another name under the Jaguar, It being a 53 prototype I always figured they repainted paint reject parts which they did.


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## Schwinn499 (Aug 26, 2019)

After thinking this over for a while, does anyone have evidence of gold and/or silver base coat on the over spray portions of the steerer tubes of color of bikes in question. This portion usually holds true to the original finish as its been protected from any wear and sunlight.

Edit: I just saw GT had snuck this idea in also..


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## GenuineRides (Sep 17, 2019)

Check the link from the 1959 Schwinn Reporter article and take the time to read directly from Schwinn https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/schwinn-paint-process.86284/ where they state in black and white, "coated with aluminum enamel" "and baked for 19 minutes".  Wouldn't that be more obvious than all of this  conjecture?  Plus I have never seen any paint listing or can, samples etc. of gold underbase in any catalog or collection anywhere.  

Paints have chemicals as ingredients that react to environmental circumstances such as time, temperature, UV exposure, etc.


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Sep 17, 2019)

Here is a red Schwinn phantom I recently pick up.. serial number starts with a P. Looks like the red paint faded away form the sun do now it's a cool gold color!


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## Freqman1 (Sep 17, 2019)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> Here is a red Schwinn phantom I recently pick up.. serial number starts with a P. Looks like the red paint faded away form the sun do now it's a cool gold color!
> View attachment 1065166
> 
> View attachment 1065167
> ...



Now that's oxidization at its finest! V/r Shawn


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## GTs58 (Sep 17, 2019)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> Here is a red Schwinn phantom I recently pick up.. serial number starts with a P. Looks like the red paint faded away form the sun do now it's a cool gold color!
> View attachment 1065166
> 
> View attachment 1065167
> ...





That is an exquisite example of Schwinn's painting process with the underlying paint on these early Opal colors. What are you planning on doing to bring back the oxidized red?


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## spoker (Sep 18, 2019)

opal smopal they were candy colors over base,no big mistery,schwinn called it opal for some reason that may have been a sale deal,if u want an "opal red schwinn"just aint it candy red,for some reason this uninteresting talk keeps coming up!!!!


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## GTs58 (Sep 18, 2019)

Well Mr. Spoker poker toker, your uninteresting post here sure didn't answer the original question in this thread. And I really didn't care for your post or feel like googling your sentence for a translation.


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## GTs58 (Nov 7, 2019)

Here's a beautiful late 54 or early 1955 American with the faded out Red exposing the Gold base coat.


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