# Most Overrated Bike



## highship (May 23, 2016)

Curious as to what bikes people think are overrated...
Im sort of leaning towards the infamous Bluebird. I don't say that because everyone else loves them or that they are not cool looking, I'm just thinking for the money that they demand there is a lot of other bikes I would buy first.

so whats your most overrated bike?


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## WES PINCHOT (May 23, 2016)

I WOULD SAY THE SCHWINN AEROCYCLE!


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## Boris (May 23, 2016)

The Cheetos bike! I just can't understand why everyone loves them so much.




Photo courtesy of vincev


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## mike j (May 23, 2016)

Dave Marco is definitely on the right track. At the risk of ruffling some feathers, it's purely a personal opinion, but my vote is for the Shelby Airflow. Boy's & Girl's equally.


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## vincev (May 23, 2016)

Dave Marko said:


> The Cheetos bike! I just can't understand why everyone loves it.
> View attachment 320553
> Photo courtesy of vincev



Dave,I think its the long chainguard/exhaust that causes an sexual excitement in most people


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## spoker (May 23, 2016)

most of them on craigs list by non-bike ppl


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## abe lugo (May 23, 2016)

Any "rare" bike.  Funny when a bike is so rare that another one shows up for sale right after the first rare one sold.


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## bobcycles (May 23, 2016)

Schwinn Krate series from 1968-73  They made a gazillion of these bikes and they go for the
same money as scarce and unique classic bicycles.


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## THE STIG (May 23, 2016)

mike j said:


> but my vote is for the Shelby Airflow. Boy's & Girl's equally.


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## THE STIG (May 23, 2016)

Bluetirds


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## slick (May 23, 2016)

Black Phantom....hands down winner. Its like the 59 Cadillac or 57 chevy in the car world. You say 50's and thats the first cars people think of.


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## 2jakes (May 23, 2016)

WES PINCHOT said:


> I WOULD SAY THE SCHWINN AEROCYCLE!




Having owned one, I would agree.


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## Evans200 (May 23, 2016)

Any Schwinn.


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## SirMike1983 (May 23, 2016)

Any of the small wheel 'muscle bikes'. They just reinforce the attitude that a bike is a child's toy and not something more capable.


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## momo608 (May 23, 2016)

Just about all the bikes on bikeforums.net Classic & Vintage. I have not seen so many yawners all in one place before.


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## bulldog1935 (May 23, 2016)

Schwinn Varsity. 




you won't see one here, because no one can pick them up

aside on this, I was laughing at a couple of roadies on carbon bikes on a greenway trail yesterday who wouldn't pick up their bikes for the simplest portage to keep riding another 15 miles.  I was hauling my 30+ lb loaded Raleigh.


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## CrazyDave (May 23, 2016)

Evans200 said:


> Any Schwinn.



ROFL, Glad you said it man, I sure was thinkin it!    All good answers here IMO, Im going to nominate the Donald Duck bikes to go along with Dave's Chester Cheetah bikes....What the heck is going on there anyhow?


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## Freqman1 (May 23, 2016)

highship said:


> Curious as to what bikes people think are overrated...
> Im sort of leaning towards the infamous Bluebird. I don't say that because everyone else loves them or that they are not cool looking, I'm just thinking for the money that they demand there is a lot of other bikes I would buy first.
> 
> so whats your most overrated bike?





What if you already have all the other bikes? Personally I find few bikes overrated that I like. They each measure up in their own way. V/r Shawn


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## Evans200 (May 23, 2016)

CrazyDave said:


> ROFL, Glad you said it man, I sure was thinkin it!    All good answers here IMO, Im going to nominate the Donald Duck bikes to go along with Dave Chester Cheetah bikes....What the heck is going on there anyhow?



The cheetos bike is the ugliest bike I ever saw. I like the Donald Duck bikes. Funny thing is no boy past puberty back in the day would be caught dead on one. Now they pay tons for them.


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## GTs58 (May 23, 2016)

Evans200 said:


> The cheetos bike is the ugliest bike I ever saw. I like the Donald Duck bikes. *Funny thing is no boy past puberty* back in the day would be caught dead on one. Now they pay tons for them.




Guess I'd be considered an odd ball. I can say without a doubt that I wouldn't be caught dead riding a Donald bike at 6. And I never wore Mickey Mouse ears when I was watching the MM Club show.


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## rustystone2112 (May 23, 2016)

Schwinn Phantom , and im a Schwinn guy  but the Phantom bores the hell out of me


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## bairdco (May 23, 2016)

All schwinns.  It's bad enough that the serious collector thinks they're the most awesomest bikes on the planet, but the non-bike crowd see them over priced on tv, ebay, craigs, swapmeets, etc, and think, gee, my 1978 girls piece of crap is a rare antique and worth 350.

Most schwinns were quality bikes, but after cranking out millions of them, it's just another schwinn. There's probably more schwinns made after 1960 on the planet than there are people who ride bikes.  (Not counting china. They don't ride schwinns, they build them.)

And what a great thread to start a hundred arguments. Good job.


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## Gasbag (May 23, 2016)

Dave Marko said:


> The Cheetos bike! I just can't understand why everyone loves it so much.
> View attachment 320553
> Photo courtesy of vincev




If you don't own one...you will never understand


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## CrazyDave (May 23, 2016)

Gasbag said:


> If you don't own one...you will never understand



If I ever own one I hope someone slaps me back to reality.


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## hawkster19 (May 23, 2016)

I am going to nominate a bike I personally love - Huffy. Even though they aren't highly regarded by probably anybody on this forum, however highly you regard them is too high. I live in a town where they produced Huffy bikes for a few decades and I've always loved and collected them. I still do. But they are complete turds quality-wise when compared to nearly every other make of bike from the 1960's through the '80s. Again, I love them, I have dozens, but it's purely nostalgia for me and my area. I traded a neighbor kid some baseball cards for his Murray Astro Flite when I was in the 8th grade and my Huffy blinders were removed.


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## bulldog1935 (May 23, 2016)

the thing about the Cheetos bike, is that it's cool to look at and almost certainly an instant collectible.
But it's really not a bike that was built to ride at least more than show off in a parking lot.
I was looking at catfish's Flying Merkel album today, and those are gorgeous bikes.  Everything about them is built to ride.  Their geometry is duplicated in modern Rivendells.  Bikes were worked out a long time ago.  The last major advancement was standardization of the chain. 



  (Roscoe Bubbe prorotype)


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## 2jakes (May 23, 2016)

GTs58 said:


> Guess I'd be considered an odd ball. I can say without a doubt that I wouldn't be caught dead riding a Donald bike at 6. And I never wore Mickey Mouse ears when I was watching the MM Club show.




*How dare you watch the show without the ears!



Shame on you!
*


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## Maskadeo (May 23, 2016)

1939 Schwinn Motorbike...Just kidding that's my dream bike! Probably the Schwinn Phantom


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## Boris (May 23, 2016)

Thank you for giving me the opportunity once again to rail on my least favorite bike of all time. The Bowden!!!! That front fender is UGLY! UGLY! UGLY!


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## Robertriley (May 23, 2016)

highship said:


> Curious as to what bikes people think are overrated...
> Im sort of leaning towards the infamous Bluebird. I don't say that because everyone else loves them or that they are not cool looking, I'm just thinking for the money that they demand there is a lot of other bikes I would buy first.
> 
> so whats your most overrated bike?




If you ever get close to one you would appreciate them more.  One of the most unique frames and next to impossible to find original parts and really NO repop parts are being made.

  I'd have to go with the Schwinn Autocycle, 

Too many repop parts that fit on it 
Tons of them out there.
Looked near the same for 20-30 years


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## 37fleetwood (May 23, 2016)

I'm with the "all Schwinns" crowd, but if I have to narrow it a bit, I'd say all of the Auto Cycles. same bike as the others but 10 times the price! what a rip-off!
it's the bike with the $5,000.00 decal!


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## wasp3245 (May 23, 2016)

Fun to read each one's least favorite over rated bike . 
If we all collected the same thing it would be a pretty boring place.


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## Boris (May 23, 2016)

CrazyDave said:


> If I ever own one I hope someone slaps me back to reality.




Vince would probably sell you his cheap, just so he could slap you.


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## kevin x (May 23, 2016)

I really like cheetos, old school original flavor.


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## oldfart36 (May 24, 2016)

Sorry, but I have to say it! The X-53! I have had 3 now, they are a cool bike, no doubt, but where the market has gone with most of them, no thanks! Give me a Shelby, Colson, Elgin anyday.


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## bulldog1935 (May 24, 2016)

wasp3245 said:


> Fun to read each one's least favorite over rated bike .
> If we all collected the same thing it would be a pretty boring place.



100% true.  No one should take this stuff personally.  It's about personal preference and shouldn't be considered an attack on anyone's taste. 
You guys are the historians of this stuff, and every bit of that is important.


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## fattyre (May 24, 2016)

Bluebird.


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## bricycle (May 24, 2016)

the Evinrude Stream-flow.... the *Edsel* of cycles.... LOOKS great, but many cracked and broke.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (May 24, 2016)

Robertriley said:


> If you ever get close to one you would appreciate them more.  One of the most unique frames and next to impossible to find original parts and really NO repop parts are being made.
> 
> I'd have to go with the Schwinn Autocycle,
> 
> ...



If it ain't broke why fix it?... 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (May 24, 2016)

I get the tons of them out there.....but that's what happens with schwinn quality.....their sheit lasted ... and the kids who had em, hid them away all un American like and instead tossed their friends ( insert only 7 have been found bike) in the truck for the war drives while he wasn't looking.. got tired of him riding his schwinn  

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Saving Tempest (May 24, 2016)

Evans200 said:


> Any Schwinn.




Mine was free and anyway, it has J.C. Higgins peaked fenders and a tank it never came with plus green glitter grips instead of the Schwinn-approved black Phantom styled ones that rub off on your hands as well as different handlebars.


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## dtaylor613 (Nov 20, 2020)

Bumping/reviving this thread for the banter


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## bricycle (Nov 20, 2020)

The most over-rated bike is the bike someone is trying to sell.


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## Shawn Michael (Nov 20, 2020)

How about the Bowden Spacelander, talk about an ugly dog.


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## tacochris (Nov 20, 2020)

Shawn Michael said:


> View attachment 1304518
> 
> How about the Bowden Spacelander, talk about an ugly dog.



Im going to very much agree with you on that bud.  To me it looks like an English middleweight covered with some cheap Home Depot drop-in shower walls.
Once again, just my honest opinion.


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## tacochris (Nov 20, 2020)

My personal opinion (which isnt worth 2 thin dimes on the open market) is to me the Monark Silver King is way overrated.  I just don't like the look of them honestly and have no real desire to own one short of maybe rescuing one and dropping it into someone's hands who will love it.


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## Nashman (Nov 20, 2020)

rustystone2112 said:


> Schwinn Phantom , and im a Schwinn guy  but the Phantom bores the hell out of me



I tripped over this thread today. I agree, but the Red Phantom I dig ( have one) and also the Green Phantom. The Black has been repopped to death as well.


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## tacochris (Nov 20, 2020)

Nashman said:


> I tripped over this thread today. I agree, but the Red Phantom I dig ( have one) and also the Green Phantom. The Black has been repopped to death as well.
> 
> View attachment 1304520
> 
> View attachment 1304521



That's why when I finally got my 51 phantom I wanted one that was rusty and a little rough around the edges because its obvious when you see it that its not a repop.


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## Nashman (Nov 20, 2020)

tacochris said:


> My personal opinion (which isnt worth 2 thin dimes on the open market) is to me the Monark Silver King is way overrated.  I just don't like the look of them honestly and have no real desire to own one short of maybe rescuing one and dropping it into someone's hands who will love it.



Silver Kings....I think the engineering, design and material was amazing for the mid 1930's. I'm not trying to wave my collection, and these examples are far from exact perfect, some custom, but the design is clearly eye candy in my modest opinion. Flo Cycle and Wing Bar.


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## tacochris (Nov 20, 2020)

Nashman said:


> Silver Kings....I think the engineering, design and material was amazing for the mid 1930's. I'm not trying to wave my collection, and these examples are far from exact perfect, some custom, but the design is clearly eye candy in my modest opinion. Flo Cycle and Wing Bar.
> 
> View attachment 1304530
> 
> ...





Thats kinda why I prefaced my comment saying my opinion doesnt really mean anything in the grand scheme of things, more taste than anything.  I can appreciate the construction, the talent and the art that went into making them honestly....I dont hate them, just not a bike Im itching to get into my personal collection.  
Honestly it really could stem from the fact that I dont like chrome/polished bikes and prefer paint over anything.  
Beautiful collection though....aces!


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## Nashman (Nov 20, 2020)

Shawn Michael said:


> View attachment 1304518
> 
> How about the Bowden Spacelander, talk about an ugly dog.



I love the lines, but that seat just doesn't cut it. I know it's original, but more space age, streamlined like a tool box saddle would be better.


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## Nashman (Nov 20, 2020)

tacochris said:


> Thats kinda why I prefaced my comment saying my opinion doesnt really mean anything in the grand scheme of things, more taste than anything.  I can appreciate the construction, the talent and the art that went into making them honestly....I dont hate them, just not a bike Im itching to get into my personal collection.
> Honestly it really could stem from the fact that I dont like chrome/polished bikes and prefer paint over anything.
> Beautiful collection though....aces!



Thanks. Yeah, we all have different tastes, and that's what makes the hobby fun. If we all wanted the same woman, man, dog, car, pizza, beer, bike, it would be crazy. I tend to prefer the look of a painted rim or fender as opposed to chrome too, but have a mixed bag in my collection. YES, your opinion DOES matter. Not everyone has to agree, and that's just fine. I tend to stand behind my opinion on more personal issues, but am open to others as well. I also like the "agree to disagree" term. Often it takes another opinion/set of eyes/ears to point out something we totally missed.


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## tacochris (Nov 20, 2020)

Nashman said:


> Thanks. Yeah, we all have different tastes, and that's what makes the hobby fun. If we all wanted the same woman, man, dog, car, pizza, beer, bike, it would be crazy. I tend to prefer the look of a painted rim or fender as opposed to chrome too, but have a mixed bag in my collection. YES, your opinion DOES matter. Not everyone has to agree, and that's just fine. I tend to stand behind my opinion on more personal issues, but am open to others as well. I also like the "agree to disagree" term. Often it takes another opinion/set of eyes/ears to point out something we totally missed.



Not to chase rabbits so-to-speak, but funny story regarding that.  I LOVE Cycle Trucks, always have always will.  There is something about the bare-bones industrial feel of them that speaks to me.  I finally got one after all these years and I was so excited to share it with a local collector friend of mine and his reaction was basically "meh...I dont like Cycle Trucks".  Just about popped my bubble...haha  Yet I love em dearly....


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## John G04 (Nov 20, 2020)

Schwinn krate has my vote for overrated. Too many of them, they never seem to have any unique patina either. They either look like crap or are restored


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## Cooper S. (Nov 20, 2020)

Stretched bikes and krates, also anything that costs more than 10k lol


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## Nashman (Nov 20, 2020)

tacochris said:


> That's why when I finally got my 51 phantom I wanted one that was rusty and a little rough around the edges because its obvious when you see it that its not a repop.



My Red Phantom is a mix of parts, but original except the lens/seat is repop. My bike is far from minty, not quite crusty. I salute you buying an original.  I like a minty original bike, great resto, one that is crusty, one that is a custom, or unique, even the history or memory takes part. Some bikes I own I've had for 30 years, some sold then bought back, one stolen and found, lots of memories.


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## Robertriley (Nov 20, 2020)

Phantoms and Create bikes.  There are repops everywhere and they all look the same, just different colors.  They are like the 65 Mustang and 69 Camaro of the car world.  There are nice but everyone personally knows someone that owns one.


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## fordmike65 (Nov 20, 2020)

Schwinns in general.


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## John G04 (Nov 20, 2020)

fordmike65 said:


> Schwinn's in general.
> 
> View attachment 1304621




This thread is about to be a warzone lol


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## BFGforme (Nov 20, 2020)

fordmike65 said:


> Schwinn's in general.
> 
> View attachment 1304621



Everything besides Schwinn..... LoL, there, I said it!!!


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## Jeff54 (Nov 20, 2020)

BFGforme said:


> Everything besides Schwinn..... LoL, there, I said it!!!



Sting-Rays. I mean 20" cantilever Junior frame from 50's turns into a stink-rat until, Never?


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## Nashman (Nov 20, 2020)

Good to stir up the troops. Gets the blood moving.  With all the B/S happening, good to change the topic of you know what. Viva la hobby!


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## 1817cent (Nov 20, 2020)

If anyone has one of those "overrated" Aerocycles and wants to sell it at an unappreciated price, give me a call.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Nov 20, 2020)

if you say Schwinns are over rated you can put the blame squarely on the shoulders of this guy. See # 7









						11 fun facts about 'Captain Kangaroo' that will bring you back to your childhood
					

There was only one thing to watch growing up, and we're glad it was Captain Kangaroo.




					www.metv.com


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## Balloonoob (Nov 20, 2020)

Ok.......I'm a dude. If a bike isn't visually exciting I don't really care how it rides. To those who love these bikes - good there's more for you : highwheels, silver kings, most Schwinn bikes (with the exception of the 37 - 39 motorbike non jeweled tank models (here's looking at you @stoney) and the old b10 models), cycle trucks, krates/muscle bikes, Monarks, huffy radiobikes, cantilever frames, trikes, tandem bikes, any bikes built in this century, e bikes, and girls bikes. Wow. Now I'm thirsty. Better go drink some Haterade. But not the yellow kind. That's just gross.


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## bike (Nov 21, 2020)

Though I think they are overrated, don't get me wrong, I love schwinns --they sell...


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## SKPC (Nov 21, 2020)

highship said:


> Curious as to what bikes people think are overrated...so whats your most overrated bike?



This is a trick question.   It depends on what "overrated" means.   Depends on what you are "Rating" really and how you do your evaluation.
Weight? Metal quality?  Paint?  Ride quality?  Market value?  Availability? Popularity?   Visual appeal?(love that comment Balloonoob: me too)

And this opens a big can squirming with healthy worms for sure. Personally? I think most bikes and everything else for that matter is overrated.


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## phantom (Nov 21, 2020)

Without doubt, the most subjective title I have seen in a while. I'm not even sure what over rated means. Non functional? Too expensive? Too many of them? Not reliable? Too rare? You could go on and on.


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## A.S.BOLTNUT (Nov 21, 2020)

Don't see how outstanding Quality can be " over rated "


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## bike (Nov 21, 2020)

In terms of demand vs coolness...............................................schwinns overrrated- the best quality undeniably but so what, bikes as art they are too common and retro for the period- aerocycle aside. 36 Merc built in kstand and non hanging tank- way ahead of it's time...
Talking  pre war bikes- quality of schwinns started to fade in the mid 50s compared to earlier bikes.


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## SKPC (Nov 21, 2020)

Don't forget the 2nd Mirriams.   Over "valued".  Now on to value. It's a long path unless you narrow it down a bit^^^^^


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## Rollfast4T1 (Nov 21, 2020)

Overrated?  Worksman Front Cargo....only “works” man on flat surfaces. 
Underrated? Late 70s-81 Schwinn Cruiser 5 Deluxe HD....hills, downhill, packing, cruising.... your basic Swiss Army knife of bicycles! 
Got one for $60 with bad cog.  $10 Later I was enjoying this full-utility mochine!  Good stopping rear ATOM drum, great gearing, and I could put my Miller-matic 110v flux core wire feed in the basket and mobile weld!   BUT I couldn’t fish with it so I traded for a old Merc trolling motor...similar bullet proof build.


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## redline1968 (Nov 21, 2020)

I say Schwinns..they are like camaros. Everybody has one..even me..lol..yes they ride.. nice looking.  great design but so common ..i admit they are a great quality bike. That probably why they are so common.. that being said just too many of them.. i had a areocycle project.. just another camel back bike..without the thin tank... give me a bluebird or a colson. They ride like the wind and emulate coolness ...very uncommon..


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## Nashman (Nov 21, 2020)

redline1968 said:


> I say Schwinns..they are like camaros. Everybody has one..even me..lol..yes they ride.. nice looking.  great design but so common ..i admit they are a great quality bike. That probably why they are so common.. that being said just too many of them.. i had a areocycle project.. just another camel back bike..without the thin tank... give me a bluebird or a colson. They ride like the wind and emulate coolness ...very uncommon..



An Aerocycle without an *original tank* to me is WAY overrated. I mean it's a very plain frame. The Tank is the money shot. Without the tank, I'd walk by the bike without even noticing. Rare bikes without the RARE parts are just that. Overdone like a good steak. Now a complete original is another story.


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## blasterracing (Nov 21, 2020)

mike j said:


> Dave Marco is definitely on the right track. At the risk of ruffling some feathers, it's purely a personal opinion, but my vote is for the Shelby Airflow. Boy's & Girl's equally.



I completely agree.  Anyone having boys or girls airflows, please send them to me here in Shelby and I will dispose of them properly! Lol


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## John Gailey (Nov 21, 2020)

I think the question comes with a sliding scale.  We all probably had the idea of a great bike as a newbie.  After we got that bike (Monark Silver King was mine) the bar was set higher.  We then get the next bike we have chosen as our holy grail (don't remember this one).
In a nutshell, the most over rated bike is the one we can no longer afford.  
Cheers


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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Nov 21, 2020)

I'm going to say tank bikes. Some clean looking and good riding prewar and postwar bikes out there that never came equipped with a tank that go for reasonable money compared to same exact bike or comparable bike equipped with tank that sells for mega more. Tanks are cool, tankless shouldn't be considered less of a classic.


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## hzqw2l (Nov 21, 2020)

I vote for any bike hidden...not ridden...as overrated.


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## Nashman (Nov 21, 2020)

Frank and Pam Skid Kings said:


> I'm going to say tank bikes. Some clean looking and good riding prewar and postwar bikes out there that never came equipped with a tank that go for reasonable money compared to same exact bike or comparable bike equipped with tank that sells for mega more. Tanks are cool, tankless shouldn't be considered less of a classic.



That said, a good friend ( who wasn't really a bicycle collector) would always say " no tank/No thanks". May he RIP John Sanders 1955- 2018.


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## John Gailey (Nov 21, 2020)

If tanks were porn, that's the money shot.


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## cyclingday (Nov 22, 2020)

I don’t know, that any bike can really be over rated.
If the price is right, and you like, then buy it.
But, I will say, that a certain class of bikes can be way under rated.
Take the Mid 60’s/70’s Schwinn Middleweights for example.
You practically can’t give these things away, because they have been deemed unworthy if you’re a serious bike collector.
I guess that stems from the fact, that they made about a gazillion of these thing, and  they were made so well, that there is still about a gazillion of them around.
But, if you want a great looking bike, that won’t break the bank, and rides like the wind.
Give the Schwinn Middleweight a try.




Nothing brings me back to the time when I was 10 years old, like this 1970 Campus Green, Schwinn Typhoon.
There may not be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow with these bikes, but, if you want a great bike that won’t break the bank, and gets you where you need to go, without too much effort, then you can’t go wrong, with the highly UNDER rated Schwinn Middleweight.
Just my personal opinion of course.
I can practically hear the groans now. Lol!


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## Cooper S. (Nov 22, 2020)

I would also like to add bikes made into “board track bikes” to this list. Your 50s ballooner was not a board track bike and has nothing in common with one. Turn your bars the right way round.


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## BICYCLE HEAVEN (Nov 26, 2020)

Shawn Michael said:


> View attachment 1304518
> 
> How about the Bowden Spacelander, talk about an ugly dog.



The Bowden history is like no other and its design in the 1940s with no metal frame .Benjamin Bowden who design some cars like the Austin Healey and built Winston Churchill armored car and many other things as well .The Bowden Spacelander bike is in the New York Museum of art and is one of the most sought after bikes and one sold for 48000 .At the Bicycle Heaven Museum in Pittsburgh P.A. with over 4500 bikes the Bowden Spacelander bikes are the most looked at and talked about and the most photograph bike in the Museum .


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## GTs58 (Nov 26, 2020)

The Spacelander was Bowden's dream bike. It wouldn't have lasted for a years worth of use by any kid so what was the real point? A token bike made just to be different, but dysfunctional in the real world. Bowden's Folly.  Just my opinion, and I place it at the top of the Title's list.


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## Shawn Michael (Nov 26, 2020)

BICYCLE HEAVEN said:


> The Bowden history is like no other and its design in the 1940s with no metal frame .Benjamin Bowden who design some cars like the Austin Healey and built Winston Churchill armored car and many other things as well .The Bowden Spacelander bike is in the New York Museum of art and is one of the most sought after bikes and one sold for 48000 .At the Bicycle Heaven Museum in Pittsburgh P.A. with over 4500 bikes the Bowden Spacelander bikes are the most looked at and talked about and the most photograph bike in the Museum .



I'm not disputing any of that and what an icon it is. We're just having some fun. I just happen to think they are ugly.


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