# Excelsior!?



## scrubbinrims (Feb 14, 2011)

I sold a pair of wheels on ebay last week and called around some local bike shops for a wheel box and a store I don't normal frequent had one so I made the trip across town to grab it. I struck up a conversation with a mechanic there and mentioned I had a couple of  Shelby made, badged "Fox" for thier store in the 1930's.  I was surprised he knew about the Fox and asked how he came to find this out. His reply was because we have a store display right over there and pointed to the bike attached which was on a ledge.
I was shocked... the last thing I would have expected to see in a modern bike shop.
Surprisingly, it had been in place for at least 3 years, folks had commented about it, but I was the first to ask what it would take to load it into my van.  The deal was done in minutes and I was beaming on the way home, even though I had to use my credit card to get it...I didn't want to come back for it and have the owner reconsider.
I beleive this is a Schwinn made cousin to the Xcelsior, SN H13791 with a 2 perpendicular to this stamp.
Any confirmation on this and were the wheels 28's versus 26's, as it it rocking some nice typhoon cord balloons now?






Thanks, Chris


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## yeshoney (Feb 14, 2011)

Chris,
That is really nice.  I can't help with the ID though.  I am guessing $750?  

Joe


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## redline1968 (Feb 14, 2011)

nice bike. the darts on it looks like a columbia but it could be a schwinn.


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## scrubbinrims (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks, the untouched paint is remarkable.
Five bills, plus tax Joe.  
I bought an elgin just a couple of days before so it was a big swing financially in a week, but one I never regret.
I saw on Dave's Nostalgic an Xcelsior with the exact dart pattern on the fork, although the rest of the detail was different.
Sprocket leads me the Schwinn direction, but could be a number of things with this non-descript badge.


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## Talewinds (Feb 14, 2011)

Tough to tell from the pics. Detailed photos of the fork truss braces, lower top tube/seatpost junction, and dropout adjuster area would help.


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## scrubbinrims (Feb 15, 2011)

*More pics for ID*

A bonus was that it has entirely cleaned and overhauled, so there was a lot of value in the labor...no additional grime under my fingernails.


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## DonChristie (Feb 15, 2011)

Are you kidding me? So what you are saying is you found a NOS Motorbike? Un-friggin-believable! Congrats! More pics!


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## scrubbinrims (Feb 15, 2011)

No kidding, no photoshop...it's not perfect as it has some knocks from being moved around, maybe test ridden, but the telltales signs of riding wear are not there in contact points of the seat, and pedals.  The owner pulled it from their warehouse a few year ago, but it could possibly have had components changed out, but under his ownership, only the grips.  Maybe it was in circulation and somehow re-acquired by the store, but the details are unknown.
Naturally, I asked about the warehouse which I visited yesterday.  Overall, slightly disappointing, but I purchased 2 ladies bikes, one with as nice of original york 28 x 1.5 singletubes as one could expect to find (as it has hung off the ground) and a cwc roadmaster with deep navy painted center drop rims and blackout ND hubs, truly awesome wheels with matching goodyears in great shape.
Thanks, Chris


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## Talewinds (Feb 15, 2011)

Doesn't look like a Michigan City Excelsior, but a post Schwinn acquisition changeover model. I've got a later Schwinn Admiral with identical elements.


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## scrubbinrims (Feb 16, 2011)

Thanks Talewinds.
I'll research admirals to learn more and answer the question of whether or not this was a 26 or 28 inch.
I would like to see yours, so if you get a chance, please email me a pic.
Thanks, Chris


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## ColsonTwinbar (Feb 16, 2011)

1934 Schwinn built! I've seen a few schwinns with that pattern.


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## fordsnake (Feb 16, 2011)

1936 Schwinn Excelsior C Model...http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle1050.htm Looks like the same bike to me...certainly the same markings and with a tank!


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## bud poe (Feb 16, 2011)

Great bike and story!  
Not the same bike as C model, different bend in the top tube...Good score on the other stuff too!


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## fordsnake (Feb 17, 2011)

> Not the same bike as C model, different bend in the top tube



Yeah you're so right...now that I look, the markings are similar but they're different!


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## scrubbinrims (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks for the reference and ID, the fork darts are identical but slightly different hieroglyphics on the frame to the one on Dave's Nostalgic.
Mine does not have the easy top tube bent and if it came with a tank, it was removed early and there are no traces of wear from having one.
I looked in every box in the warehouse for it...
Any idea if I have original wheels or were 28's removed?
Thanks, Chris


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## Talewinds (Feb 17, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> Any idea if I have original wheels or were 28's removed?




I should qualify, being able to spot a bike w/ 26's that was supposed to have 28's is something I'm not really savvy at but there should be some guys that can tell at a glance....
That said, I don't see any fender blocks on the rear, yet the tire and fender seem to meet ok. The front fender looks to need better adjustment, but it doesn't look wrong as compared to the tire.

Hadn't Schwinn gone all balloon tire by the mid 30's?


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## RMS37 (Feb 17, 2011)

I’m surprised that more hard core Schwinnistas haven’t descended on this thread.

First off Chris, congratulations on this score, it is in amazing condition! Watch out you may find other collectors starting to shadow you on your trips based on what you have been turning up.

The bike is definitely a Schwinn built product based on the frame and fork configuration. The Michigan City Excelsior firm was probably already dead and in the hands of H. P. Snyder by the time this bike was made.

Thumbing through the James Hurd book of collected prewar Schwinn catalogs shows that this frame is basically the juvenile moto-framed 1-1/2 model. This was the smaller framed version of the 9 and 10 moto-framed models that were available with either 28” single-tube or 26” balloon wheels for a while during the transition between the two tire types. At that time the balloon tire models were differentiated by placing a “B” at the beginning of the model name, hence 9’s and 10’s and B9’s and B10’s. The E in B10E was for equipped models with tanks and lighting equipment.

While the 10’s and B10’s rolled on 28” single-tubes and 26” balloons respectively, the smaller framed 1-1/2 and B1-1/2 models used either 26” single-tube wheels or 26” balloon wheels which are fairly close in diameter. (The 26” single tube rims are larger in diameter than the balloon rims but the tires are not as fat making the total diameter similar.) Single tube and balloon models also differed in the forks used and the width of the rear of the frame as the new balloon wheels required a wider crown and used wider rain gutter fenders than the single tube models.

Early versions of these Schwinn moto-framed bikes had frame construction that incorporated fish mouthed tubing ends on the lower top tube. This was changed to a full surround fillet join on later models.

Based on those facts I don’t question that your Excelsior is sitting on the original size 26” balloon wheels it was designed and built to use. The configuration of the lower top tube joints and the width of the rear of the frame and the fork crown lead me to believe this bike is a late Schwinn moto-frame rather than an early one.

From here, we get into the realm of speculation when trying to pin down the date of the bike. The fancy stenciled darts don’t appear in the Schwinn catalogs until 1937 and are used in variations for several years after that. The catalog darts are similar but not identical to those on this bike but that might be explained by the Excelsior rather than Schwinn branding.

The other key to dating the bike, the serial number, complicates matters further. There have been posts on this site that have offered speculative readings for pre-fire Schwinn serial numbers, the generally accepted version is that serial numbers did not include letters until 1935. In 1935 and 1936 letters were added but the serial numbers only contained 4 numbers. When that sequence ended during 1936 the system with a letter followed by five digits was instituted and this system ran (hit and miss) through the alphabet twice into the postwar years.

Looking further into the data, H13791 taken alone would suggest a build in 1941 as H is not listed as a letter used in the first run.

Another fact that is important concerning dating prewar Schwinns by serial number is the style and size of the serial stamping as it is accepted that along with the number and pattern of the sequences, the style changed, so a photo of the actual serial number will help date this bike.

All of this is evidence that can be sifted through further to come up with an _opinion_ about the most likely scenario for dating this bike. 1937 is a good guess because it brings most of the facts together in a palatable way. It is late for a moto-frame and rain gutters, but juvenile models were not updated as quickly as the full size models. The Excelsior line was a way that Schwinn typically got rid of older stock and patterns so that goes some way toward explaining a late date for this model. The stencil darts also suggest a build date in the neighborhood of 1937-38. Ultimately, checking the style of the stamping may show what period the frame dates to including the possibility that the serial number *is* likely to be from 1941. That would really make this bike an anomaly but it is clear in this hobby that the manufacturers built what they built and often that stands against collector “research” and consensual opinion.

And…I still have a list of questions you have asked on other projects that I’m sitting on, Twin Bars in particular are a subject I want to get to but I seem to be incapable of simple answers so it takes time for me to circle back and follow up on some of the topics that come up.


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## scrubbinrims (Feb 17, 2011)

Phil,
Thanks for all the time you put into comprising your response, I got a lot out of it.

I too was surprised that this find didn't get more feedback, but maybe because I threatened to sandblast a late 40's Planes/Trains B-6 a few weeks back because my reflective tape extraction went horribly wrong.
BTW, I think I will chrome the forks and keep the frame paint, put back the new departure 2 speed clamps as it was and hope this doesn't offend the Schwinn gods.

I will post a pic of the SN to help clear up the dating and contribute to what is known/assumed.

I have invested a lot of time on the hunt and networking to find vintage bikes and I look in all the places most others do, but I must admit although the inventory is not here as in the rust belt, however, I don't think there is anyone else in this state as active.  It's just not a big hobby here and there is less immediate competition.
I don't believe much in luck...I don't think Nate randomly chose a barn to peek in and found his bluebird and I don't think it was lucky I came across this remarkable specimen.  Had I not been as involved in vintage bikes and parts, I wouldn't have been in the store to get a box for shipping, and had I not used the opportunity to talk about the branded bicyles of his store's past, I would have walked out of there without seeing it.
There are really no secrets, I just really enjoy these bikes and like everything else in life, with more work, there is more reward.
No need to shadow me

Take your time on the Twinbar questions I asked as this is not a restoration I want to rush into and f%#k it up.

Thanks, Chris


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## ripcityriders (Jul 14, 2011)

amazed again today i am having fun here!


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## ripcityriders (Jul 14, 2011)

I have never seen those fenders with the rounded peaks before maybe on an old rollfast?


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## cyclonecoaster.com (Jul 14, 2011)

Looks like the paint scheme found on the BF Goodrich badged Schwinn bicycles -- nice find


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## chucksoldbikes (Jul 14, 2011)

the     37  schwinn  exclesor had    darts like that   coz i  got one


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## chucksoldbikes (Jul 14, 2011)

exuuse me  what is a wheel box i am   dumb today
chucksoldbikes or  cpcsps@yahoo.com
    thought i knew  every thng   guess nhot


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