# 1968 Orange Krate at Orange County Drag Track poster bike



## Oldbikeguy1960 (Dec 7, 2021)

This bike has always bothered me because it was obviously the pre production model. I would like to know some things about it as I am thinking on building a tribute bike duplicate it.
The front wheel is my main problem. What hub is that? It looks like a Sturmey Archer because it is a half brake with uneven length spokes. It looks like it may have 28 spokes which is also wrong. Even the tire is not correct for a Krate S-7 rim. The sidewall pattern on the tire makes it a 16×1.75 Schwinn Spitfire tire. I have 2 of those tires, NOS but weather cracked some. 
Does anyone have any input? Has anyone except me noticed this? Does anyone except me even care?
I will also be asking a couple questions on the 1966 Fastback poster bike in a separate thread if anyone wants to participate.


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## Vicious Cycle (Dec 7, 2021)

The brake looks alot like the Schwinn Tandem brakes from the Town and Country era.

p.s. I used to find them in old bike shop parts bins and passed because they didn't look like a "Schwinn" part. Live and learn.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Dec 7, 2021)

I will check that out, thanks.
I have passed up or got rid of countless items because I was stuck on Tunnel Vision mode. Now I need them and they are gone.


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## kingsting (Dec 7, 2021)

Union hub on the front. Pretty scarce today.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Dec 7, 2021)

Of course it is. Because I want one. Thanks for the info.
Were they the maker of the Town and Country tandem brake?


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## GTs58 (Dec 7, 2021)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> Of course it is. Because I want one. Thanks for the info.
> Were they the maker of the Town and Country tandem brake?




I believe they were, at least on the last few years the T&C's were made. They had HD spokes though, so probably wouldn't be correct for your application if you could get one from a T&C. Plus the spoke count would be different.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Dec 8, 2021)

I found some decent photos of them, I believe that's what Schwinn did. Took undrilled unit and drilled it for spokes. Looks like 28 spokes from the photo best I could count.
One could weld and redrill the correct number of spoke holes. Were those chromed? They do not look like they were in photos, that would be a plus. I am sure that thought would bother some purists, but if I were going to build this bike I would need to do this.
I would prefer a Union assembl but I could use a Sturmey Archer unit 
since they look really close. If it uses the same diameter drum I could use a Union backing plate. They are easier to find than a whole drum setup, and would look close enough to work.
I would still have to weld and drill unless I can find a 28 spoke unit. I believe I saw one on eBay from a 20" Raleigh that was similar to the Schwinn runabout, in purpose at least.


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## razinhellcustomz (Dec 8, 2021)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> This bike has always bothered me because it was obviously the pre production model. I would like to know some things about it as I am thinking on building a tribute bike duplicate it.
> The front wheel is my main problem. What hub is that? It looks like a Sturmey Archer because it is a half brake with uneven length spokes. It looks like it may have 28 spokes which is also wrong. Even the tire is not correct for a Krate S-7 rim. The sidewall pattern on the tire makes it a 16×1.75 Schwinn Spitfire tire. I have 2 of those tires, NOS but weather cracked some.
> Does anyone have any input? Has anyone except me noticed this? Does anyone except me even care?
> I will also be asking a couple questions on the 1966 Fastback poster bike in a separate thread if anyone wants to participate.View attachment 1523721



Yeah, and i REALLY digg that knobby tire on the back s2 rim too.. PEEYUCK!!


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Dec 9, 2021)

You do remember that the early Krate series thru about mid 1968 came with the knobby tires,  as did the early StingRays until the Yellow Oval Slik in (I believe) 1965. The Krates even had color line knobby tires available in orange, red and yellow. 
Schwinn had a lot of trouble getting enough Slik tires for bike production at first so I imagine some models even came with the knobby tire even in 1965.
It isn't my favorite either but to build this I have to use one.


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## razinhellcustomz (Dec 9, 2021)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> You do remember that the early Krate series thru about mid 1968 came with the knobby tires,  as did the early StingRays until the Yellow Oval Slik in (I believe) 1965. The Krates even had color line knobby tires available in orange, red and yellow.
> Schwinn had a lot of trouble getting enough Slik tires for bike production at first so I imagine some models even came with the knobby tire even in 1965.
> It isn't my favorite either but to build this I have to use one.



Yeah, I never even saw a Sting ray until the late 60's or early 70's so i would have been at a loss as to what came on what.. I do remember going to the Honda/Schwinn dealer growing up, and wishing i could have one under the Christmas tree but never got one.. Oh well I'm making up for it know... RideOn... Razin..


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## mrg (Dec 9, 2021)

So if it's a Spitfire tire it would be a 16" S2?


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## GTs58 (Dec 9, 2021)

The Spitfire tire was made for Schwinn as a regular non-S-7 middleweight replacement tire, was it not?


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## stingrayjoe (Dec 10, 2021)

The pre production bike used in the photo more than likely had a 16” x 1.75”, hook bead rim. They came in 16” - 26” sizes on lower grade Schwinn models vs the S-7. See photo of GTs58’s tires above.

1967 Stingray “Midgets” were equipped with the hook bead rims.


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## stingrayjoe (Dec 10, 2021)

You can mount a 2.125” or a 1.75” wide tire on a hook bead rim.
‘67 Stingray Midgets are a prime example of this from Schwinn. 16”, S-2 size Stiingray Gripper Slik on the rear and 1.75” Schwinn Spitfire tire on front. Same size rim front and rear.


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## koolbikes (Dec 10, 2021)

I have to throw a fork into this salad, What is all the fuss? Tribute bike doesn't have to be exact or is your intention a facsimile ?
If your trying to replicate an exact copy, the front brake is not the hard piece. As you said, pre-production would be 1967 and the frame is the hard piece. Just a thought.


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## mrg (Dec 11, 2021)

Wouldn't any hand brake 67 frame work.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 11, 2021)

mrg said:


> Wouldn't any hand brake 67 frame work.



They are talking about a drum type brake. Like bike in OP


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## koolbikes (Dec 11, 2021)

There were no hand brake 5 speed Sting-ray frames before 1968, the only frames were for an Pre-1968 "Orange Krate" dated Oct, Nov, Dec 1967. They are out there I have a Dec. '67 and have seen a Nov. '67.


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## razinhellcustomz (Dec 11, 2021)

koolbikes said:


> There were no hand brake 5 speed Sting-ray frames before 1968, the only frames were for an Pre-1968 "Orange Krate" dated Oct, Nov, Dec 1967. They are out there I have a Dec. '67 and have seen a Nov. '67.



The Krate frames were different than the standard Sting Ray frames.. I had an og paint frame that i had built up and sold a couple years ago.. Wish i still had that one.. RideOn.. Razin..


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## PCHiggin (Dec 11, 2021)

*I had a Dec '67 and a Feb '68 Orange, both of them original with Atom front drum brakes, orange line knobby rear tires, black wall Superior front  tires and pogo seat posts. I didn't read all of the replies but just wanna ad my 2 cents, you cant always hang your hat on all of the ads or literature when determining correctness or originality. They took liberties to drum up excitement*


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 11, 2021)

razinhellcustomz said:


> The Krate frames were different than the standard Sting Ray frames



Do you mean that they had brake bridge and the stays were set for a 5 speed wheel?


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## koolbikes (Dec 11, 2021)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Do you mean that they had brake bridge and the stays were set for a 5 speed wheel?



YES !


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## mrg (Dec 11, 2021)

I was thinking a 67 3 spd frame.


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## stingrayjoe (Dec 12, 2021)

Will a 5 speed Mag sprocket clear the dogleg in the chain stay?


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## razinhellcustomz (Dec 12, 2021)

stingrayjoe said:


> Will a 5 speed Mag sprocket clear the dogleg in the chain stay?



Yep, had one my 68 as i didn't have a clover sprocket for it so i used what i had... Worked for me.. RideOn.. Razin..


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Dec 14, 2021)

mrg said:


> So if it's a Spitfire tire it would be a 16" S2?



Yes, if you look close at the photo it is not an S-7 wheel, and it appears to have 28 spokes.
Also as I said earlier the sidewall is Spitfire style, not Superior.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Dec 14, 2021)

koolbikes said:


> I have to throw a fork into this salad, What is all the fuss? Tribute bike doesn't have to be exact or is your intention a facsimile ?
> If your trying to replicate an exact copy, the front brake is not the hard piece. As you said, pre-production would be 1967 and the frame is the hard piece. Just a thought.



The frame would look right even if I used a late 1970s multi speed caliper brake frame. The brake will not unless I find something at least very similar.
And yes, I want to make as close a replica as possible. Otherwise what is the real point of a tribute bike? If I only wanted a Modernized bike I could just use the Sturmey Archer front wheel from the 1990s Grey Ghost. 
 To some, a tribute bike may be like an impressionist painting a DaVinci.
To me it is like I am good enough to forge a DaVinci


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## StingrayRider (Jan 8, 2022)

This looks like the front wheel you are after, however, the seller ended the auction earlier today. Oh Well, maybe you can use the photos for reference or figure out where it went.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275095839102?campid=5335809022


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## mrg (Jan 8, 2022)

StingrayRider said:


> This looks like the front wheel you are after, however, the seller ended the auction earlier today. Oh Well, maybe you can use the photos for reference or figure out where it went.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275095839102?campid=5335809022



Hope no one got taken by that Ebay scammer, not even close to a Schwinn OG Atom ( like seller says ) and not even closer to the prototype picture!


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## GTs58 (Jan 8, 2022)

mrg said:


> Hope no one got taken by that Ebay scammer, not even close to a Schwinn OG Atom ( like seller says ) and not even closer to the prototype picture!




But he's listed it again with the same description. Nobody has taken the bate yet. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275098962138?campid=5335809022


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 8, 2022)

I talked to him on it, that's why he ended the listing. It is a GRI.ME.CA. hub I am certain.
Columbia SS3 series used one, so did Murray. He swears it is all he has left of his Krate that was stolen when he was 12 years old. Had it locked up by the front wheel and someone stole the rest of it.
64 now and cleaning out the extra stuff.
He said he was ending the auction, already was over $100 when he did. Maybe he will do the right thing.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 8, 2022)

Guess I was wrong about him. All he did was add a question mark. I was told he did change the description. I checked and it does help clarify what be knows so I am still giving him the benefit of a doubt. Maybe the bike wasn't brand new and the wheel had been changed, or when the tire got cut Dad put a whole new rim on it from a used bike shop because of the S-7 tire being pretty much Schwinn only. Most 11 year old kids wouldn't know the difference or care.
 He already has bidders on it. 
I tried to help him stay out of trouble on this. Maybe it helped. 
When someone buys it I hope it is for whatever it really fits.
I almost want to buy it myself to see if I can figure it out.
It is 24 spoke so most likely came as a 16" wheel. I wish I could read the tire better to get the brand.


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## GTs58 (Jan 8, 2022)

I see he mentioned you in his new listing. 🤣 Back in the day a person could see who was bidding and they could also message that bidder. I did that quite often warning them about a shady seller that had two seller ID's and was bidding on his own merchandise. I don't think that rim is Schwinn either. Any info on the rim?


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## mrg (Jan 8, 2022)

I ask him to post a better pic of the knurling and S7 stamping, didn't even mention the bogus brake, maybe his dad told him it was a Schwinn krate but was just a cheap knockoff!


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 9, 2022)

That's what I wondered, sometimes we remember things the way we want them to be and not always like they were.
The wheel is HTF and it is worth money even without saying it is a Krate Wheel, so I think he remembers it as one and it may be hard to change his mind.
Maybe his dad bought the bike used and the front wheel had been changed before he got it. That would make his memory of it real. He doesn't seem like a bike guy, good or bad so maybe all he has to go on was the bike. He may not have even known new from used at the time and it would've been new to him.


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## stingrayjoe (Jan 9, 2022)

mrg said:


> Hope no one got taken by that Ebay scammer, not even close to a Schwinn OG Atom ( like seller says ) and not even closer to the prototype picture!



Good hub for Columbia MTD SS bikes


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 9, 2022)

I am not sure the wheel isn't correct for an SS3, I had info on a 20x16 Columbia with a drum front. I actually had one of these on a 16" rim with the diamond knurling on the rim sides. The wheel was bent and I used the hub to build my wife a girl's Apple Krate with a matching GRI.ME.CA. 5 speed drum in the rear and that one up front. Still have that bike with my brothers Apple Krate waiting to be repainted again.
The tire looks fat like a Raleigh Chopper tire but it isn't a Chopper wheel. Those were Sturmey Archer hubs.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 9, 2022)

The guy messaged me, said I was one of the nice eBay people who told him it wasn't a Krate Wheel.
I always start out nice, as long as someone doesn't go Postal on me I stay that way.
I never want to be like that, but I speak Postal fluently and will not hesitate to do so if triggered.
Everyone here has been great so I may not get my "donkey" banned for life from this forum.


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## StingrayRider (Jan 9, 2022)

It looked close to me. 
Didnt realize it would cause such a stir. 
Still a interesting wheel and would be good for a 70's off brand muscle bike or custom build.
Some long extended chopper forks with that wheel would be Kool.


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## Rear Facing Drop Out (Jan 9, 2022)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> You do remember that the early Krate series thru about mid 1968 came with the knobby tires,  as did the early StingRays until the Yellow Oval Slik in (I believe) 1965. The Krates even had color line knobby tires available in orange, red and yellow.
> Schwinn had a lot of trouble getting enough Slik tires for bike production at first so I imagine some models even came with the knobby tire even in 1965.
> It isn't my favorite either but to build this I have to use one.



The only Krate with the knobby was the orange. The other colors were for slicks and gripper slicks.


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## mrg (Jan 9, 2022)

Ya, he told me he never said it was a Krate wheel, just that it was on his childhood Schwinn Krate that got stolen?, think maybe they left that wheel as a consultation. told him seems like you would remember what was changed on your own bike! as said maybe his dad just told him it was a Schwinn😏


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 9, 2022)

StingrayRider said:


> It looked close to me.
> Didnt realize it would cause such a stir.
> Still a interesting wheel and would be good for a 70's off brand muscle bike or custom build.
> Some long extended chopper forks with that wheel would be Kool.



Don't feel bad man, it is a cool wheel, and worth a little to the right person. It just wasn't as listed and a lot of people do not know the difference.
Plus the guy had the wheel for 52 years and sometimes what we remember is not always 100% what we should.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 9, 2022)

My brothers Apple Krate had a Schwinn Knobby when he got it off the curb, I cannot imagine anyone actually wanting that tire over a white letter Slick in the 1970s.
Guess I will have to check more on this.


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Jan 9, 2022)

mrg said:


> Ya, he told me he never said it was a Krate wheel, just that it was on his childhood Schwinn Krate that got stolen?, think maybe they left that wheel as a consultation. told him seems like you would remember what was changed on your own bike! as said maybe his dad just told him it was a Schwinn😏





Rear Facing Drop Out said:


> The only Krate with the knobby was the orange. The other colors were for slicks and gripper slicks.



This is the info in my books that supposedly came from Schwinn in the late 1960s.

All Krates up to May of 1968 had Knobby tires.

From June 1968 to May 1969 they came with Slik tires, even though the 1969 catalogs show Gripper Sliks they didn't make it onto bikes until about June 1969.

This info was gathered by a well known Krate collector named John Cellini.
I am trying now to corroborate this.


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