# BSA Racing Bicycle with Wood Rims, I could use your educated help, please.



## bass4cash (Dec 6, 2014)

I am not very knowledgeable about bicycles, but I am trying to learn. I recently "picked" a very nice and unique bicycle that I think is something special. I would greatly appreciate any information the members may be able to provide me with. The bicycle is a very lightweight BSA Racing bicycle with wooden rims. It has BSA on the racing pedals and the sprocket. It has a number tag attached and a seat that says "Sylvia" France, I do not think this was original to the bike. The bike is a men's bike, yellow in color with red pin striping. It is in outstanding condition. Any ideas of age and value? I appreciate any input you may give.


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## detroitbike (Dec 6, 2014)

1920-30's . Block chain , Major Taylor stem. Doesn't look like the original fork.
  Lots of BSA was used pre WW2
   BSA was like campagnolo  today; a manufacturer of parts found on many racing 
   bikes in the day. Definitely a board track racer. I'd est as shown 1200-1500 + depending
if you have provenance


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## bass4cash (Dec 6, 2014)

detroitbike said:


> 1920-30's . Block chain , Major Taylor stem. Doesn't look like the original fork.
> Lots of BSA was used pre WW2
> BSA was like campagnolo  today; a manufacturer of parts found on many racing
> bikes in the day. Definitely a board track racer. I'd est as shown 1200-1500 + depending
> if you have provenance




Thank you for that


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## SirMike1983 (Dec 6, 2014)

Really nice old track bike.


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## bass4cash (Dec 6, 2014)

SirMike1983 said:


> Really nice old track bike.




Thanks...I am in Virginia too.


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## dubsey55 (Dec 6, 2014)

Nice early racer. Thats NOT block chain, just regular skiptooth.  Do your research, on here and everywhere,and you will eventually find out builder.  Great find!  Walter in NJ


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## schwinnderella (Dec 6, 2014)

withdrawn


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## detroitbike (Dec 6, 2014)

dubsey55 said:


> Nice early racer. Thats NOT block chain, just regular skiptooth.  Do your research, on here and everywhere,and you will eventually find out builder.  Great find!  Walter in NJ




    1" Pitch BLOCK chain as used on at least a dozen + of my WW2
  track Paramount's ...
   BTW Every Block chain is SKIPTOOTH
       Do your research .........


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## kccomet (Dec 6, 2014)

nice bike, whats the story on finding it. is it for sale


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## filmonger (Dec 7, 2014)

Great bike! Looks like it could be a BSA frame. Your in luck as  information is plentiful for these bikes . Parts are fairly easy to get to.

Here is some background on bsa .... http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/BSA:_Bicycles

Here is a 1940's version - yours is earlier for sure. http://www.bikecult.com/works/collections/bsatrkpg.html


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## walter branche (Dec 7, 2014)

*1 inch pitch*

IT IS 1 INCH PITCH BLOCK CHAIN , IT IS NOT 1 INCH PITCH ROLLER CHAIN . SKIPTOOTH IS A MADE UP WORD USED IN THE BICYCLE WORLD , NEVER IN ANY VINTAGE ADVERTISING HAVE i EVER SEEN THE WORD SKIPTOOTH ,


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## bass4cash (Dec 7, 2014)

kccomet said:


> nice bike, whats the story on finding it. is it for sale




I own an antique store, but bicycles is not where most of my knowledge lies. I was picking a gentlemans home who has one of the nicest collections of classic cars, motorcycles and toys you will ever see. While there I stumbled on this wonderful bicycle. It is for sales as soon as I determine a fair market value . I will appreciate all the feedback I can receive. I will also post it here first for users of this site to have first opportunity to purchase. Thanks for the input.


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## schwinnderella (Dec 7, 2014)

detroitbike said:


> 1" Pitch BLOCK chain as used on at least a dozen + of my WW2
> track Paramount's ...
> BTW Every Block chain is SKIPTOOTH
> Do your research .........
> ...




I am aware that racers favored block chains for their racing bikes believing it was stronger than roller chain. I was not aware that block chain was stock on pre war paramounts as the above post seems to say. Is it true that pre war paramounts were deliverd with block chain?


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## kunzog (Dec 7, 2014)

detroitbike said:


> 1920-30's . Block chain , Major Taylor stem. Doesn't look like the original fork.




I think it is the original fork. A lot of bicycles of that vintage had a nickel plated fork.


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## sam (Dec 7, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> I own an antique store, but bicycles is not where most of my knowledge lies. I was picking a gentlemans home who has one of the nicest collections of classic cars, motorcycles and toys you will ever see. While there I stumbled on this wonderful bicycle. It is for sales as soon as I determine a fair market value . I will appreciate all the feedback I can receive. I will also post it here first for users of this site to have first opportunity to purchase. Thanks for the input.




The history behind this bike would add to the value, I think. So if the seller knows anything about it worth getting that info too.


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## corbettclassics (Dec 7, 2014)

filmonger said:


> Great bike! Looks like it could be a BSA frame. Your in luck as  information is plentiful for these bikes . Parts are fairly easy to get to.
> 
> Here is some background on bsa .... http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/BSA:_Bicycles
> 
> Here is a 1940's version - yours is earlier for sure. http://www.bikecult.com/works/collections/bsatrkpg.html





This is not a BSA bicycle either.  They listed it as one but, it's not.

The reason that bike has BSA on the head tube is, many bike manufacturers back in
the day would use BSA components and would apply the sticker on the head tube
to show it has BSA parts.  Joseph Kopsky did it this way too.  

And I don't think the yellow bike spoken on this thread is a BSA.  The dropouts seem
very wrong to me.  As do the forks and everything else about the bike.  I'm about
100% positive this is not a BSA.  I believe Hilary Stone has a write up about BSA
and you will see there a little more info about the BSA bike.


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## filmonger (Dec 8, 2014)

Ummm you would know best Corrbettclassics - BSA was used by Jobbers all over the world.....

 Here is a picture of a 1927 BSA


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## bass4cash (Dec 8, 2014)

corbettclassics said:


> This is not a BSA bicycle either.  They listed it as one but, it's not.
> 
> The reason that bike has BSA on the head tube is, many bike manufacturers back in
> the day would use BSA components and would apply the sticker on the head tube
> ...




I appreciate everyone's input on this bike. As expected, there are a wide range of opinions as to the make of this bicycle. Some believe it is an original BSA bike, due to the nickel plated fork, pedals and sprocket. I also saw these same handle bars on an original BSA while searching. That's a large part of the bike. The original yellow paint with hand painted striping, the wooden rims and racing badge all make this a very cool and unique bicycle. By the way, it is extremely light as well. I am working on getting it to an expert who can lay hands on it. I will leave this bicycle intact and unchanged.


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## filmonger (Dec 8, 2014)

Upon closer examination I also agree with the others - I think you can see the slight differences based on the pictures below. Best of luck to you! BSA Parts are still fairly easy to obtain here.





Another Cabe link to a 1927 BSA special racer

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?29829-1928-BSA-Special-Road-Racer

1920/21 BSA Cat.
http://oldbike.wordpress.com/12-19201921-bsa-brochure/

More info

https://bsaownermuseum.wordpress.com/bsa-sersan-mayor/


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## corbettclassics (Dec 8, 2014)

filmonger said:


> Upon closer examination I also agree with the others - I think you can see the slight differences based on the pictures below. Best of luck to you! BSA Parts are still fairly easy to obtain here.
> 
> View attachment 183929
> 
> ...





Great pic of a '27 BSA - you can see the lugs, seat cluster etc …… 

I'm still pretty sure the yellow bike is not a BSA bike though.

Here's an example of "Kopsky" using the BSA decal on the head tube on his bikes.


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## corbettclassics (Dec 8, 2014)

*And now it's on eBay …...*

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-1900s...625?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f42aba069


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## Freqman1 (Dec 8, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> I own an antique store, but bicycles is not where most of my knowledge lies. I was picking a gentlemans home who has one of the nicest collections of classic cars, motorcycles and toys you will ever see. While there I stumbled on this wonderful bicycle. It is for sales as soon as I determine a fair market value . I will appreciate all the feedback I can receive. I will also post it here first for users of this site to have first opportunity to purchase. Thanks for the input.




Uuuhh ok???? Didn't see it posted here before it hit Ebay though?


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## bass4cash (Dec 8, 2014)

filmonger said:


> Upon closer examination I also agree with the others - I think you can see the slight differences based on the pictures below. Best of luck to you! BSA Parts are still fairly easy to obtain here.
> 
> View attachment 183929
> 
> ...




I really appreciate this picture. If you put the picture of my bicycle side by side with the pictured provided in this link, they appear identical, minus the handlebars. Could those be a style of a different year model or an add-on to their bikes?


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## bass4cash (Dec 8, 2014)

Freqman1 said:


> Uuuhh ok???? Didn't see it posted here before it hit Ebay though?




I have been responding directly to the people that have expressed an interest in the bicycle, sir, but you are correct, I have not posted it here as of yet. I have offered it to people on this site for less than what the price is on Ebay because of the help that has been provided. Thanks for noticing


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## Freqman1 (Dec 8, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> I have been responding directly to the people that have expressed an interest in the bicycle, sir, but you are correct, I have not posted it here as of yet. I have offered it to people on this site for less than what the price is on Ebay because of the help that has been provided. Thanks for noticing




Sorry if I came across as snide but more than a few times folks have come to the site and after they had mined all the info they needed they didn't even give the people that helped them a chance. Glad to hear that you honored your word and good luck with the sale. V/r Shawn


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## bass4cash (Dec 8, 2014)

Freqman1 said:


> Sorry if I came across as snide but more than a few times folks have come to the site and after they had mined all the info they needed they didn't even give the people that helped them a chance. Glad to hear that you honored your word and good luck with the sale. V/r Shawn




Not a problem at all. I am honoring my word. I was posting quite a few pieces on Ebay today and I included the bicycle while I was at it. I am currently working on the post for this site and I do truly appreciate the input from it's members.


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## corbettclassics (Dec 8, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> I really appreciate this picture. If you put the picture of my bicycle side by side with the pictured provided in this link, they appear identical, minus the handlebars. Could those be a style of a different year model or an add-on to their bikes?View attachment 183991View attachment 183992




For me, the yellow bike looks nothing like bike in the picture. I think there is an illusion because it appears
to have the same sort of angles.  So, I can see why you might think it looks identical .. BUT >

> The bike in the picture has a fork crown and the yellow bike doesn't.

> The bike in the picture has lugs and the yellow bike doesn't.

> The bike in the picture has a separate seat cluster bolt off the seat stay lug and the yellow bike doesn't.

For me - totally different bike and the yellow bike doesn't resemble it in any way.

Here is my old BSA (?) that looks more like the picture - lugs, fork crown etc ( same sort of angles too )


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## bass4cash (Dec 8, 2014)

corbettclassics said:


> For me, the yellow bike looks nothing like bike in the picture. I think there is an illusion because it appears
> to have the same sort of angles.  So, I can see why you might think it looks identical .. BUT >
> 
> > The bike in the picture has a fork crown and the yellow bike doesn't.
> ...




Looks like we have the same handlebars. Any chance that there were different models or design changes throughout the years? Quite a bit of similarities. The seat is one thing I do not think is original to the bike. But I am certainly realizing that there are lots of little nuances in bikes that someone like me would not notice. Thanks again.


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## Gordon (Dec 9, 2014)

*and Etsy*

https://www.etsy.com/listing/214577...cycle&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery


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## barracuda (Dec 9, 2014)

I'm glad this thread came to be. "Is it a BSA?" is a question that arises often in terms of vintage track bikes, and I have yet to see conclusive answers, at least in terms of definitive production characteristics which could be used as identifiers. It has been my assumption that virtually all BSA pre wars are lugged in one way or another. I know that the bottom brackets often carried raised lettering:









... but I couldn't put a time period on the use of this marking. And didn't BSA produce and sell lugging to independent frame builders, along with their ubiquitous componentry? 

I think the OP's bike is a great looking racer. I don't think I've ever seen a racing number affixed in that manner. I just wish there was a decent set of catalogues or year-by-year compendium of BSA's racing output, but as with many aspects of racing bicycle history, the vast majority of these bikes were made by small craftsmen as customs or one-offs without much in the way of provenance to help us.


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## redline1968 (Dec 9, 2014)

Other models came with them. My early racer ( bianchi but not sure) has them


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## sam (Dec 9, 2014)

Complete bicycles were a sideline for BSA. BSA made and shipped high standard bicycle components world wide. Would be nice if the yellow bike was taken by Greensboro, and talk to Dale Brown
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/BSA_cycles.htm

http://www.cyclesdeoro.com/


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## Jeff54 (Dec 9, 2014)

corbettclassics said:


> For me, the yellow bike looks nothing like bike in the picture. I think there is an illusion because it appears
> to have the same sort of angles.  So, I can see why you might think it looks identical .. BUT >
> 
> > The bike in the picture has a fork crown and the yellow bike doesn't.
> ...





Easiest point of reference between the topic bike, the BSA frames and yours is the seat post bolt and differences in the connected bars/tubes at that area.. none of the bikes shown are the same makers or at least, same time period  as the topic bike. 


So easy to see the difference, makes it a cake walk to narrow down that it's not a 1930's BSA frame and most especially for the appearance that most of it was electro welded verses brazed, looks more modern.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

Thanks for all your help


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## Jeff54 (Dec 11, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> Thanks for all your help




It seems to be down for the moment or my crappy a server is blocking it.  but when it comes back you might be able to find the auction here: Internet Archive Wayback Machine Website Name:

www.archive.org

Obviously you're searching for the contents of this: Noel Barrett vintage toys @  auction; Jim Alterman Collection - Nov. 1998

If it was online, which by 1998 there were several auctions of this type or nature that were; the wayback machine is the place to find it.

Albeit, I wouldn't be so sure Noel Barrett is capable of providing a qualified answer about that particular bike, unless it contained some type of provenience.

However, because BSA is an English bike, and the English are collector's from hell,, best odds of discovery is getting in contact with bike collectors over there.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

Thanks again for your help. I was actually able to find this bike in this auction through some help of one of the CABE members. As it happens, I was able to get the original program for this auction from the same place the bike came from, and it is definitely in there and listed as a 1920's bike. Unfortunately, not much more information. I was amazed that someone actually recognized this bike from a massive auction of unbelievable antique collections in 1998, amazing for sure.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

I'd say the selection at this auction was pretty decent. My bicycle was in very good company. They had a few nice ones.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 11, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> Thanks again for your help. I was actually able to find this bike in this auction through some help of one of the CABE members. As it happens, I was able to get the original program for this auction from the same place the bike came from, and it is definitely in there and listed as a 1920's bike. Unfortunately, not much more information. I was amazed that someone actually recognized this bike from a massive auction of unbelievable antique collections in 1998, amazing for sure.




Well it may be a 20's bike,, but,, here's the thing.. I practically lived on 10 speed in me teens and again into me early 20's. . not that I'd be an expert, didn't follow much in racing, but a few Olympics. I never bothered about names, followed clubs or groups. I also surfed for years but couldn't tell you who was on top, then or now, wouldn't have, even asked about a club, or competitions  didn't care,, wasn't interested. Just me an me bike, me toys was all me needed to know,.. as a kid I remember story, talk about wooden rims. something about lightweight, I donno, just got an old clue from long ago.. rider preference even into the 1960's.. .. and when comparing the other race bikes of the 20's 30's, that frame looks more modern,, more lightweight, technically better than those periods. 

I'd be asking  Noel Barrett  to give provenience, or cite just exactly why he said 1920's.. and I'm betting all he can is to say: "well it has wood rims"


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

I am not going to say I disagree or agree with you, I am not that knowledgeable. But I would say, Noel Barrett was one of the regulars on Antique Roadshow for many years, on top of his own Noel Barrett auctions. Seems like his specialty was toys, bikes, pedal cars and such. I guess I find it hard to believe that he would publish something that was factually wrong, reputation of a dealer of his caliber, as is the case with any dealer, means everything. Just my opinion.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

If you’re like millions of other television viewers who’ve become addicted to the PBS series “Antiques Roadshow”, you might recognize this mustachioed, pony-tailed, over-grown kid who offers his unusual brand of excitement, knowledge and expertise to the world of vintage toys.

That’s Noel Barrett and this is his website.

Noel was born on September 6, 1940 in Westerly, Rhode Island. He graduated from Columbia University in 1964 with a BS in American History. 
What started as an interest in antique toys and American cultural artifacts became a business. In 1986, after 20 years as a retail dealer, he broadened his business by becoming an auction promoter and has, in the last 7 or 8 years, devoted himself entirely to the auction business. He NOW HOLDS ONE AUCTION a year -- specializing in unusual and extraordinary collections. 

 Among the collections that he has sold are the five sales it took to disperse the Toy Museum of Atlanta, the three sales it took to sell the landmark automotive toy collection of Bill and Lillian Gottschalk, the antique advertising collection of Peter Sidlow, the antique games collection of the pioneer collector: Herb Siegel, and the American tin toy collection of the late Bill Holland. Other important previous sales include the dispersal sales of three museum: the Washington Dolls House and Toy Museum, The Mary Merritt Doll and Toy Museum, and the Old Salem Toy Museum. Another landmark sale was the Toy and Train Collection of Ward Kimball. 

 Mr. Barrett is actively involved with historic preservation in Bucks County Pennsylvania including the historic County Theater of Doylestown, Pennsylvania -- a nonprofit film house in his county seat. In addition he is an active collector of optical and pre-cinema toys along with eclectic toys and objects reflecting aspects of the material culture of America. He is a previous president of the Antique Toy Collectors of America and has written numerous articles for various collector publications including Antique Toy World and Collectors Showcase.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 11, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> I am not going to say I disagree or agree with you, I am not that knowledgeable. But I would say, Noel Barrett was one of the regulars on Antique Roadshow for many years, on top of his own Noel Barrett auctions. Seems like his specialty was toys, bikes, pedal cars and such. I guess I find it hard to believe that he would publish something that was factually wrong, reputation of a dealer of his caliber, as is the case with any dealer, means everything. Just my opinion.




The you'd be surprised! LOL. I have another collectible hobby, antique marbles  in the 1990's I'd thought the main man, his whole family, the people who wrote everything there was to know about this collectible, clubs and groups supporting this single family's international collector club, one single item, toy.. which is far more narrowed down into a single category than Neol is. And yet as time progressed, that'ks to the internet, access to patents, the more I collected the more I discovered,, they made tons of mistakes, assumptions, rumors torn to pieces.. In fact this family has and continues to publish books about antique toy marbles, which are still riddled with errors. .. AND that very person is who Noel would ask for antique toy marbles info, too! LOL

Bikes are a cake walk in comparison to antique marbles, go figure?

I.E. your best sources would be peps in England. unless, because he sold that bike ya can make him prove it,, make him walk the walk, talk the talk with the primary sources over there  [wink]


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

Well one thing is for certain, I am getting an education on vintage bicycles and at the end of the day, I am fine with that. I own an antique store in the very historical area between Washington DC and Richmond Virginia. I live right where Captain John Smith grabbed Pocahontas, where there was a 120,000 Union soldier camp(where my store and home sets) and where the stone was quarried to build the White House and other prominent DC landmarks. So when I say I enjoy learning history and gleaning information from others, more than a few dollars, I say it truthfully. I do thank you all for your educated opinions. If I can help you in any way, besides bicycles, please drop me a message.


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## redline1968 (Dec 11, 2014)

I have to agree with another cabe member I feel it's a 40's bike. Quite frankly if you were such a good picker you would have figured it out with out questioning the cabe. Not knowing bikes shouldn't be a problem for a good picker. It's More like advertising of your sale and getting a feel for what you can get. That bike is over priced. I've seen the sit at 1500 no sale.  Marbles are a cake walk try picking art.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

redline1968 said:


> I have to agree with another cabe member I feel it's a 40's bike. Quite frankly if you were such a good picker you would have figured it out with out questioning the cabe. It's More like advertising of your sale and getting a feel for what you can get. Marbles are a cake walk try art.




DID I EVER SAY I AGREED OR DISAGREED WITH ANYONE? Have I been promoting the sale of this bike in any way? I am a damn good picker and a man of integrity, and if you focused on reading the words I have written instead of looking for a reason to attack a person who has been sincere from the start, you might have realized that. I guess no picker out there has questions about items that they ask for help on. Last I knew, that's how you educate yourself, by learning from others. Guess I should have just messaged you, since you seem to have all the answers. I wonder if you learned everything you know by osmosis?


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

For the record, most people who have questions regarding items, go to the educated to find information and values. Mike and Frank do it, the Storage War people do it....every reseller in the world does it. But forgive me for asking for advice from you sir. The majority of members on this site have been generous with their time and knowledge, and I have expressed my appreciation.


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## sam (Dec 11, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> I am not very knowledgeable about bicycles, but I am trying to learn. I recently "picked" a very nice and unique bicycle that I think is something special. I would greatly appreciate any information the members may be able to provide me with. The bicycle is a very lightweight BSA Racing bicycle with wooden rims. It has BSA on the racing pedals and the sprocket. It has a number tag attached and a seat that says "Sylvia" France, I do not think this was original to the bike. The bike is a men's bike, yellow in color with red pin striping. It is in outstanding condition. Any ideas of age and value? I appreciate any input you may give.




Someone needs to tell me how they peg this frame 40s or later? For your reference this is a Mead Ranger dated by badge type and components to be between 1910 to 1918.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 11, 2014)

differences in the joints.. brazed in yours and the topic bike showing signs of electro welding.. it would be lighter if not for other but  that single reason. these might be brazed joints with the least amount of brass for racing. However,, there are a few other places where there's signs of brazed joinery, smoothened, which would be indications of more weight. In the 40's bikes were made with a combination of electro welding and brazing.. these joints are sharp, tight and more likely to be so, electro welded, and lighter for it. . 

Should add, while me looks to your mead, topic bike looks chromed parts, while the mead has nickel.. and dam me thought at first look, I can't be sure but, and it may not make it a date or period marker but,  that crank and sprocket  looks like aluminum too. regardless it don'ts looks like nickel. 

it's an very very lightweight racer,, defiantly lighter than the famed paramount,,!  and heck, indicates how little bikes have advanced.. if it wasn't for differences in an ounce or so, less or more, that frame, it's delicate and  shave a few ounces here or there,  could race against steel frames  today. 

Originaly said: looks like a museum bike. However, disclaimer, it doesn't make it worth a ka-zillion bucks.. price is dependent on buyers, market,, interest. Not everything in a museum is fricken priceless, lol.. rare never means "ka-Ching!" collector interest dictates value. And when it comes to collector verse rarity,, if it ain't popular, such as, the Cabe's main interest are USA bicycles meaning here   it's worth squat. But bettr odds of intrest is Europe.. 

Might be a France built  frame,, and it's a somewhat privet racers too.. completely custom built,  sponsored bikes have labels. 

regardless has a nice cool factor within the history of bikes, and racers. 

Example, I still have my mid 70's surfboard. custom made by a bud in Hawaii.. it's very cool for 70's board, my custom graphics on it too. signed, all a collector could want. but.. while me old pal is still making boards, somewhat retired, or just tiered, lol. his boys run the shop now, . he's well known in the industry, was in the ranks as pro surfer in the 60's  his son  of the top ten competitors in the sport a few year ago at the pipeline, till he broke his back, , of the famed group,, his aint worth squat verses the bigger well known makers.. And me tells ya, mine is one seriously very, very cool custom uniquely shaped board!! big eye appeal.  guess me should had the other guy makes me one, lol. here's  animated GIF, graphic me drew in Photoshop 13 year ago, a peak at me board. I'm actually standing on me board inside o me living room in this  I've been disabled  34 year now, dam black widow! so,  in me dreams.  he's still making the very unique design that's shaped into the side rails of this.. it's when we were experimenting, trying to get more grab in the wave without drag.. if you'd told me to add two more fins like today's boards 3, I'd called ya nutz!!. to much drag, but low and behold they did and it worked!!.. this is  experimental, side rails with little shapes like a fin, before developing more fin for greater control.  a lot of province, but,, not the right, more popular designer/maker. 

My point being that, back in the day of this racer, unless can find a famous rider, or branded frame, some provenance , like my board, rarity or uniqueness do not command a price, popularity do. maybe another 50 year, for the provenance, not me but my pal who made it,  me board sees the light, lol. 







 



 



sam said:


> Someone needs to tell me how they peg this frame 40s or later? For your reference this is a Mead Ranger dated by badge type and components to be between 1910 to 1918.


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## sam (Dec 11, 2014)

Should add, while me looks to your mead, topic bike looks chromed parts, while the mead has nickel.. and dam me thought at first look, I can't be sure but, and it may not make it a date or period marker but, that crank and sprocket looks like aluminum too. regardless it don'ts looks like nickel. 
 The sprocket and crank are typical British  chrome. The earliest example I have in my collection that can be dated is 1935. But as a working track or 6 day bike those parts could be a replacement part. and  I disagree with you on it showing signs of electro welding. To me it looks like internal lugged construction used 1900 on. As far as being very light weight one of the lightest frames I've ever had was an early 1900+ mead crusader --the tubing was Rolled construction. I'd really have to look inside the head tube to see the type of joint used in the yellow bike---your really just guessing unless you pull the fork or take the paint off.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 11, 2014)

sam said:


> Should add, while me looks to your mead, topic bike looks chromed parts, while the mead has nickel.. and dam me thought at first look, I can't be sure but, and it may not make it a date or period marker but, that crank and sprocket looks like aluminum too. regardless it don'ts looks like nickel.
> The sprocket and crank are typical British  chrome. The earliest example I have in my collection that can be dated is 1935. But as a working track or 6 day bike those parts could be a replacement part. and  I disagree with you on it showing signs of electro welding. To me it looks like internal lugged construction used 1900 on. As far as being very light weight one of the lightest frames I've ever had was an early 1900+ mead crusader --the tubing was Rolled construction. I'd really have to look inside the head tube to see the type of joint used in the yellow bike---your really just guessing unless you pull the fork or take the paint off.




agreed.. unless ya pull the fork and see how it's jointed, there's no certainty.. But if it is electro welded,, 40's time frame would fit like a glove. 

yet this frame's design has no BSA bike comparison, it appears lighter than theirs too. Which is also why me tinks 40's.. nor does it being brazed make it definitive earlier as well. custom bikes have been being brazed well into the 60's plus, just that, if it is as  suspect electro welded,, in my eye all the other pieces fit into the 40's too.


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## sam (Dec 11, 2014)

I'm also with you---this is not a BSA bicycle. Fairly common mistake to call a bike built with some or all Bsa parts a bsa bike---this one is not even close. I'll go out on a limb---and call the yellow bike American made---Has all the ear marks of an American made bike. And if you look close at the paint chips it also looks to be made with a high quality tubing.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

What earmarks would make it an American made bike? Just curious. Can you please explain the part about determining the kind of tubing used by looking at the paint chips? Those areas seem so small, how do you determine what the tube is made from and where it originates with that small of a peek at it?  I'm just trying to figure how you determine that its an American Made bike and not from somewhere else. Is that an opinion or are there things I should look for to know that? What would clue me in to know the difference in these photos. There seems to be a lot of different opinions on this bike, I'm certainly confused. The good news is it is going to a reputable dealer in antique and collectible bikes who can put his hands on it and give his opinion. Some of these posts seem to conflict with the others. Forgive me for being confused


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## Jeff54 (Dec 11, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> What earmarks would make it an American made bike? Just curious. Can you please explain the part about determining the kind of tubing used by looking at the paint chips? Those areas seem so small, how do you determine what the tube is made from and where it originates with that small of a peek at it?  I'm just trying to figure how you determine that its an American Made bike and not from somewhere else. Is that an opinion or are there things I should look for to know that? What would clue me in to know the difference in these photos. There seems to be a lot of different opinions on this bike, I'm certainly confused. The good news is it is going to a reputable dealer in antique and collectible bikes who can put his hands on it and give his opinion. Some of these posts seem to conflict with the others. Forgive me for being confused




I'll chime in but sam may be a better explanation.. US steel was the leader, technological advancements protected by patents.. balance of carbon which made it the same weight or close but much harder..

It's been my experience, cheap steel especially today's Chinese bikes,, if ya can't test the tensile strength,, abiet I can feel how flexible cheap metal is,  just like the cheapo huffy and Murray's of the 1960's chip it and watch how fast it rusts!! 

Here's a chipped  or likely better, not scratched but pealing, area on yours that   is clean still. It's indicating some hard metal.


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## hoofhearted (Dec 11, 2014)

Jeff54 said:


> Here's a chipped  or likely better, not scratched but pealing, area on yours that   is clean still. It's indicating some hard metal.






*Horsepower Added ............*


...................  patric










===========================
===========================


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## redline1968 (Dec 11, 2014)

Ha its obvious your not.. Other wise you would understand there are far more years of  bicycle knowledge that you can't seem to comprehend . you asked and got the answser but you can't accept it.  I studied the old school way read and listen observe.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 11, 2014)

should keep searching I wouldn't, didn't say it's not a 20-30's bike, Not without identifying that frame. 

It's well preserved, Nice bike, nice fast racer, seemly rare, Needs an identity still. remains unanswered until so. 

Tried understanding that stand.. Is it riveted, square nuts, hex, fine or thin threads? manufactured with a cup enclosed pivot for folding.. But that hook, the cuts inside of the cross brace to hook the side.. The U cut-out is shallow. and there's plenty area still on that brace to make them deeper, stronger or more stable . That doesn't seem typical of being very old. Not much help there. 

Nice stand though, liking the way it scissor locks too. an accessory but,, could be 'like' 1940-50's. or could be just the way they wanted those cut-outs?? I donno, maybe it's so it'll break down quick, wiggle the bike off the stand and it''ll drop and fold, out of the way, but another area to search.


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## sam (Dec 11, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> What earmarks would make it an American made bike? Just curious. Can you please explain the part about determining the kind of tubing used by looking at the paint chips? Those areas seem so small, how do you determine what the tube is made from and where it originates with that small of a peek at it?  I'm just trying to figure how you determine that its an American Made bike and not from somewhere else. Is that an opinion or are there things I should look for to know that? What would clue me in to know the difference in these photos. There seems to be a lot of different opinions on this bike, I'm certainly confused. The good news is it is going to a reputable dealer in antique and collectible bikes who can put his hands on it and give his opinion. Some of these posts seem to conflict with the others. Forgive me for being confused




First off don't worry about being confused, that's natural on this board.
I'm calling this bike American made because of the worlds major makers of bicycles ( British/French/Italians)  only American made bikes used internal lugs. Which I think your has---if you pull the fork and look inside the headtube we can tell. What you would see is the tubing is spread inside the head. If electro welded as others think you would not see this "fishmouth" of the tubing. Electro welding would point to a 40s+ age but if internal lugged it could be as old as 1900. 
That brings us to the shinny tubing and the way the paint flakes off it---leads me to believe it is a type of cro-moly or high manganese tubing all of which was in service by 1925
Now for the good part---this bike might be almost as you first stated or was told---a 1920s era 6 day racer. a piece of hand made "Americana" and worth every bit if not more than your asking price(maybe not) worth the trouble to find out. Dale Brown of Cycles del Ore in Greensboro is the best I know to ask. Or I'm sure he could point you in the right direction.


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## kccomet (Dec 11, 2014)

ive been following this thread and reading the back and forth, its interesting. i love these old racers, i have quite a few of them and have been fairly obsessed about  the racers, 6 day racing, motor pacers etc. as prob been pointed out there were many many builders, small mom and pop type stuff. my gut says this bike is late 20s early thirties, thats just my guess im no authority. six day racer i dont think so but who knows. i love the colors, love the numbered plate, and the condition is very nice. that said its an unknown maker, some what plain frame, with some loose geometry. im not trying to talk the bike down, like i said i love some things about the bike. these old racers are all over the place in price, a lot of its just how much the particular bike moves you. theres not a lot of comparison pricing when you dont know the maker. it seems like most of the thread is the age and if its a bsa. i dont think its a bsa.... that said unless you can tie it to a famous builder or racer who cares if its a bsa. its a very cool bike. im a little shocked the bike hasnt sold although i think the moneys strong on this bike and ive been known to spend stupid money on old racers. the markets a lot smaller on these old wood rim racers. i know as usual ive rambled and said nothing, i hope you find out more about the bike and break the bank


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

redline1968 said:


> Ha its obvious your not.. Other wise you would understand there are far more years of  bicycle knowledge that you can't seem to comprehend . you asked and got the answser but you can't accept it.  I studied the old school way read and listen observe.




I understand the years of knowledge required to voice an educated opinion sir. But I am getting so many different answers, from many very knowledgable people, such as yourself, that demonstrates that opinions will differ on any item that isn't clearly labeled. It seems you have your "jeans stuck in the chain" for me so I will just bid you well and say thank you for your input.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

Jeff54 said:


> I'll chime in but sam may be a better explanation.. US steel was the leader, technological advancements protected by patents.. balance of carbon which made it the same weight or close but much harder..
> 
> It's been my experience, cheap steel especially today's Chinese bikes,, if ya can't test the tensile strength,, abiet I can feel how flexible cheap metal is,  just like the cheapo huffy and Murray's of the 1960's chip it and watch how fast it rusts!!
> 
> Here's a chipped  or likely better, not scratched but pealing, area on yours that   is clean still. It's indicating some hard metal.




Thank you for that great explanation


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

kccomet said:


> ive been following this thread and reading the back and forth, its interesting. i love these old racers, i have quite a few of them and have been fairly obsessed about  the racers, 6 day racing, motor pacers etc. as prob been pointed out there were many many builders, small mom and pop type stuff. my gut says this bike is late 20s early thirties, thats just my guess im no authority. six day racer i dont think so but who knows. i love the colors, love the numbered plate, and the condition is very nice. that said its an unknown maker, some what plain frame, with some loose geometry. im not trying to talk the bike down, like i said i love some things about the bike. these old racers are all over the place in price, a lot of its just how much the particular bike moves you. theres not a lot of comparison pricing when you dont know the maker. it seems like most of the thread is the age and if its a bsa. i dont think its a bsa.... that said unless you can tie it to a famous builder or racer who cares if its a bsa. its a very cool bike. im a little shocked the bike hasnt sold although i think the moneys strong on this bike and ive been known to spend stupid money on old racers. the markets a lot smaller on these old wood rim racers. i know as usual ive rambled and said nothing, i hope you find out more about the bike and break the bank




Thank you for that . I wouldn't say you were rambling, I believe I feel essentially the same as you at this point. The person that the bike speaks to will buy it. Although I have refrained from talking about the sale of the bike, I will say that there is a lot if interest and I have enjoyed these discussions. Thank you again for your insight.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

sam said:


> First off don't worry about being confused, that's natural on this board.
> I'm calling this bike American made because of the worlds major makers of bicycles ( British/French/Italians)  only American made bikes used internal lugs. Which I think your has---if you pull the fork and look inside the headtube we can tell. What you would see is the tubing is spread inside the head. If electro welded as others think you would not see this "fishmouth" of the tubing. Electro welding would point to a 40s+ age but if internal lugged it could be as old as 1900.
> That brings us to the shinny tubing and the way the paint flakes off it---leads me to believe it is a type of cro-moly or high manganese tubing all of which was in service by 1925
> Now for the good part---this bike might be almost as you first stated or was told---a 1920s era 6 day racer. a piece of hand made "Americana" and worth every bit if not more than your asking price(maybe not) worth the trouble to find out. Dale Brown of Cycles del Ore in Greensboro is the best I know to ask. Or I'm sure he could point you in the right direction.




Thank you very much for this great explanation. That's the kind of information I can sink my teeth into, facts that you base your opinions on. I certainly can see the knowledge you possess and I thank you for sharing it with me. I believe the next step would be to take the fork off and send you some pics! Gently of course!


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## sam (Dec 11, 2014)

Are those BSA pedals hollow spindle pedals?
Will not help date the bike but very cool if so.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

sam said:


> Are those BSA pedals hollow spindle pedals?
> Will not help date the bike but very cool if so.



 Another question that needs further explaining, what am I looking for?  I am seeing lots of pictures in my future!! Lol


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## kccomet (Dec 11, 2014)

i have several bikes i have had for years that i still cant put a makers name on. you said it right, when it speaks to the right guy it will sell. i personally love the bike. sam was talking about the pedals. just curious what makers mark are on the hubs,maybe that was in the post,are they bsa


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

kccomet said:


> i have several bikes i have had for years that i still cant put a makers name on. you said it right, when it speaks to the right guy it will sell. i personally love the bike. sam was talking about the pedals. just curious what makers mark are on the hubs,maybe that was in the post,are they bsa




The bike is at my store. I am going picking in the morning, but as soon as I get there, you can bet I'm taking pictures to find as many answers as I can. This has been quite entertaining for me!


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

Does this seat help in identification in any way? I'm guessing not.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

I found this 1920's BSA Bike and thought it looked very similar to my bike, except the wheels.


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## bass4cash (Dec 11, 2014)

Here's a picture from a different angle


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## kccomet (Dec 11, 2014)

the seat,not really like other componets it could have been changed. glad your having fun. the mystery of these old racers is half the fun for me, who rode them, were they raced, casual, junior, professional. i still love my balloon bikes but they were mass produced for mainly kids and teens. these old racers your imagination has no limits.


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## kccomet (Dec 11, 2014)

ok now im curious who made it, how old is it. is there any serial numbers any where, sometimes they are on the drop outs, is that a number 8 on the side of the head tube. are the fork ends open or fully closed, the rear stays look bolted. the bike has a regular head set, yea there is a lot of things to look at


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## bass4cash (Dec 12, 2014)

Here are these two bikes side by side. The other bike is advertised as a 1920's BSA 6-day racer.


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## bass4cash (Dec 12, 2014)

This bicycle is no longer available, but I certainly loved the discussion and the education and appreciate all of the help. It is now owned by one of the members of this site.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 12, 2014)

bass4cash said:


> Here are these two bikes side by side. The other bike is advertised as a 1920's BSA 6-day racer.




BTW the bike you're comparing, 1st off is too blurry, and an easy hit when searching google. Saw it on first search..

and even with blurry photo, it's not the same frame.. hard to see but, the seat post bolt area is different and easier to see is, the drop-outs, (part of frame where rear wheel is bolted on), is no way the same. 

close but no tomato.


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## sam (Dec 12, 2014)

So the yellow bike is coming to the CABE---that's great.


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## filmonger (Dec 12, 2014)

I am glad a cabe member bought it..... I think it was a cool bike no matter who made the frame. It was in very good shape as well! Thanks for posting and giving us first dibs here on the site. Look forward to any other bicycle related finds you have in the future.


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