# Elgin Cardinal Stem Removal - Help Please



## Kato (Jun 21, 2017)

Call it a brain fart or whatever but I'm fighting getting the stem out of my 29-30 Elgin Cardinal
I've taken others out but am not sure if this one is different or just me since I'm by far no expert.
Can someone take a look at the pic and tell me what the heck I need to do before I break something.......?
It's been soaked in PB but probably needs to be soaked again. It's cleaning up nice but I need to get back on it.
Thanks !!!  Kato


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## mike j (Jun 22, 2017)

I would first, make sure that the plug isn't still wedged up in the stem. Then brace the fork, get a piece of wood & a 4lb hammer. Use the wood to protect the stem & tap, side to side while applying PB. Start fairly gently & increase pressure. Thin piece of hardwood like from a pallet works good to protect it but doesn't absorb too much shock. Patience is key here, good luck w/ it.


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## buickmike (Jun 22, 2017)

Take it outside. With a. Small bottle of propane+automatic ignitor heat up the threaded portion then have squirt bottle with water to quench. Once you see the water rapidly leaving heated area. You will realize what it will take to expand and contract the fork tube. After a couple cycles of this I hope you will have confidence for next step.  You can protect top tube with wet rags and it wouldn't hurt to have some handlebars for leverage. After heating up the tube it will dry all liquids that were present. Now for the smokey. Now you heat the tube again but will quench with blaster. After a couple cycles of this. There gonna be a big mess. And prolly your neighbors gonna call five-0. Get someone to stand over front wheel holding it while you try to turn handlebars.  All u need is a small amount of movement.


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## catfish (Jun 22, 2017)




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## Kato (Jun 22, 2017)

Thanks for the ideas - I think I'm going to try the non-flammable hammer approach first 
Is the stem supposed to slide up and out from just above where the threaded section is...........it almost looks like they are one piece?
If I understand right I should be able to PB it, put the bars back in for leverage or maybe the handle of a breaker bar and try back and forth working it loose......?


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## catfish (Jun 22, 2017)

Paint is too nice to use heat.


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## tech549 (Jun 22, 2017)

was there a stem bolt ? if so thread it back in and leave half of an inch of play ,hit the bolt downward to release the wedge,then
 clamp the stem in a vise and use a 2x4 at the top of the fork and twist.if its been soaking should break free. you will have to take the rear tire and fender off to accomplish this


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## Kato (Jun 23, 2017)

tech549 said:


> was there a stem bolt ? if so thread it back in and leave half of an inch of play ,hit the bolt downward to release the wedge,then
> clamp the stem in a vise and use a 2x4 at the top of the fork and twist.if its been soaking should break free. you will have to take the rear tire and fender off to accomplish this




Yes there was - I'll try that also................somebody had mentioned that to me also.
Back tire and fender are off so I should be able to lock it into a vice. Thanks !!!


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## tech549 (Jun 23, 2017)

I had one stuck just like this on a 35 hawthorne and that's what did for me,just keep working it in both directions.


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## Kato (Jul 16, 2017)

tech549 said:


> I had one stuck just like this on a 35 hawthorne and that's what did for me,just keep working it in both directions.




Well, I've been working on this fargin thing for 2+ hours today and I can't get it to move
I've been soaking it in Kroil for a 2-3 weeks, tried banging the bolt partially back in method and hit it with heat.

The reason to get it out is I need to get the bolt that holds the fender out - the hole in the fender is to big and the bolt, lock washer and nut are seized up.
I got out the Dremel and buzzed the nut and washer off so now I have the 1/2 bolt in the headtube, along with the thing that the stem bolt screws into.
I flipper the bike over so I was working from the bottom and found a longer socket that would fit up in the head, over the 1/2 fender bolt piece, put 4 extensions so I'd clear enough room between the forks so I could bang the hell out of it and did.....trying to drive it back out from the bottom - nothing. notta - zilch.

I was hoping working on the bike would help desress me but it did the opposite so I'm done for the day.

Here are a couple pics..........am I missing something basic ???
I'm usually pretty decent at this stuff - especially outhinking a problem like this, BUT this is the first older bike I've run into something like this.

In the pic there is the spot where you can see the thereads and I'm thing the stem slides down inside........correct.
It's soaking again.....not sure what else to so so any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Mike



 



View attachment 645612


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## buickmike (Jul 16, 2017)

Any clearance between handlebar stem and upper fork tube has been closed off by rust. If I was there I would tie truss rod support up out of the way and try to remove as much penetrant as I could before heating.  my 36 had a frozen stem. Only after Repeated cycles of heating and QUENCHING was I able to turn stem a fraction.  What you should do is start slowly and learn what temp it has to be before you douse it with water. Try to turn the adjustment cone. But heat it up first.  In my case.I had to heat that thing up too. When it turned it squeaked like it hadn't seen oil in 50 years. After finally getting stem out and adjustment cone off did idiscover the ball bearings had migrated out of races to drop alongside head tube cutting the living s*'√t out of it. Things got ugly for a while.


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## Kato (Oct 26, 2017)

After 3 months in limbo it's back soaking and I'm going to try again to get the stem out.
I'm figuring the Browns play at 9:30 on Sunday and by 1 pm or so I should be plenty ready to attach the bike again.........
I've soaked it from top and bottom with Kroil, hit it with heat and nothing......other than frustration and getting really pissed.
Either I'm totally missing something / doing something wrong or this thing is super-seized.

Hope to update with good news......


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## RustySprockets (Nov 1, 2017)

Kato said:


> After 3 months in limbo it's back soaking and I'm going to try again to get the stem out.
> I'm figuring the Browns play at 9:30 on Sunday and by 1 pm or so I should be plenty ready to attach the bike again.........
> I've soaked it from top and bottom with Kroil, hit it with heat and nothing......other than frustration and getting really pissed.
> Either I'm totally missing something / doing something wrong or this thing is super-seized.
> ...





Here's an x-ray of what you're up against.  Striking it from the bottom, while assembled, was a mistake because that drives the wedge even tighter than it already is.  The proper approach is to first reinstall the bolt through the stem until it threads into the wedge below...but not quite all the way.  With 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the bolt projecting above the surface, give it a good firm whack.  That ought to drive wedge down, away from the stem body proper.  You'll know things are correct when the bolt rattles around loosely, with the wedge suspended inside, like a bell clapper.  Only then can the stem, bolt, and wedge be withdrawn as an assembly.  Have you achieved this state?

Once you have accomplished this, the heat and the slippery stuff can begin to do their work.  There are several ways to proceed, but I have a favorite.  I like to wrap the stem in a rag and then clamp it, rather than the frame, in my bench vise.  It doesn't have to be unreasonably snug...just enough to hold it firmly in place and prevent turning.  Over tightening isn't needed and just causes blemishes.  You can then use a length of 2x4, or other non-marring lever, to gently twist the now inverted fork from side-to-side, breaking the rusty choke-hold.  Be sure to keep the lever as close to the crown as possible, otherwise you risk bending the fork blades.  You want your energy focused as close to the steerer tube as you can get it--isolate those two offending parts.  The concept--using the image below--is to separate the olive from the green, while leaving everything else unaffected.

Besides the Kroil, there are two other substances you are going to need--patience and resolve.  Be sure you have plenty of both.


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## RustySprockets (Nov 1, 2017)

BTW, I didn't see anyone mention this earlier, but there is SUPPOSED to be a locking ring covering those exposed threads above the truss rod bracket.  It's gone, so this stem has been removed before.


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## tech549 (Nov 1, 2017)

I would say to turn the bike upside down and clamp the stem in a vise hard.take the 2x4 at the base of the fork use a 6 footer if it doesn't break loose,well maybe church would help .good luck


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## tech549 (Nov 1, 2017)

RustySprockets said:


> BTW, I didn't see anyone mention this earlier, but there is SUPPOSED to be a locking ring covering those exposed threads above the truss rod bracket.  It's gone, so this stem has been removed before.



yes and it looks way to clean to be rust!!


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## RustySprockets (Nov 1, 2017)

tech549 said:


> I would say to turn the bike upside down and clamp the stem in a vise hard.take the 2x4 at the base of the fork use a 6 footer if it doesn't break loose,well maybe church would help .good luck




Well, a little prayer never hurts, right?


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## 100bikes (Nov 1, 2017)

A bicycle store trick is a product called Dri Slide. (Molybneum di sulfide- forgive the spelling)
Expensive but effective for this.
Shake it well, apply from top and bottom, inside and out. Try to hit every surface with a little.
It comes with a needle applicator.
You can then apply a rubber mallet message to disperse this stuff .
Let frame sit for a day or two and follow the stem removal steps .
I would have the frame horizontal. This stuff will stain.

Also, put some bars into the stem, the wider the better.
Put a front wheel into the fork. (junk is ok, just has to have structure)
Lock the front wheel between your legs and twist.
This will give you a great deal of leverage, and a better feel for
 how things are proceeding as well.


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## Kato (Nov 1, 2017)

Thanks to all for the recent info........!!!
I didn't get a chance to work on it last Sunday but will be this weekend.
Will update after I've tried s few of these new tips !!!


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## bricycle (Nov 1, 2017)

it looks nice now...would be great if you could just leave it in there, but not without the washer and lock nut...


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## Kato (Nov 1, 2017)

I would but the dang front fender is flopping around because the hole that holds it up into the stem has gotten too big and the bolt head goes threw the fender. All I was planning on doing was remove the stem, put a new bolt with a  washer bigger than the hole size up under the fender and that's it.
Unfortunately it hasn't gone as easily as I'd hoped. rest of the bike no problems.......No Jinx


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## bricycle (Nov 1, 2017)

hmmm....


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## RustySprockets (Nov 1, 2017)

Because the lock ring is missing, he really isn't in a position to "just leave it as is."  That ring is necessary to hold the proper headset adjustment.  As best I can figure, the bike has relied on the truss rods to perform that task...but that's no solution.


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## bricycle (Nov 1, 2017)

Assuming you tried what Tech suggested in post 7, if it were my bike, I'd slide truss rod bracket up stem as far as possible and wire it in place so it would not fall back down. Then I would unscrew the top bearing race (above threads if possible) and secure that as well.
Then I would try heating the threaded portion of fork tube with a map gas torch(not long). assuming this tube can expand when heated, now is the time to juice area between fork tube and stem with penetrant. Be carefull, as it will smoke (and stink) but hopefully some of that penetrant will creep into the joint. with bars tightened in stem, and fork secured somehow try twisting the stem. hopefully it will break free. If it does NOT by now, retighten bearing race, lock nut, truss supports. Put a sacrificial crapola wheel on fork, insert a bolt with as huge a washer as feasible into stem bolt hole, and smack top of bolt very strongly with a hand sledge. Hopefully this will at least loosen stem inside fork tube. If not.... you may need to cut off top of stem, remove fork, cut a narrow groove in upper fork tube (fibre wheel)to release remainder of stem. If all else fails, cut of frozen section of fork tube and have a short section re-welded on to existing fork. You may not elect to do such, but probably would be the route I would take. ??? exercise caution and think thru what ever you may do. good luck.


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## RustySprockets (Nov 1, 2017)

Kato, that bike is SO nice, I caution about letting frustration get the better of you.  It sometimes causes us to pursue a rash course of action.  Cutting = rash.

If it were any common bike, I'd say sure...cut it up, whack on it, burn it in gasoline.  Who cares?  Whatever gets the job done.  BUT...take a breath here.  You are the _conservator_ of a museum piece--a genuine chunk of cycling history.  Not everyone gets the chance to work on an Elgin Cardinal--you're a chosen one.  Allow that knowledge to guide your approach and you won't go wrong.

I'm willing to help out how ever I can.


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## morton (Nov 2, 2017)

Have you tried one of the products like Chill Zone or Loctite Freeze and Release?  I think they also carry a penetrant that gets into the momentary gap created by the lower temp.  I have had success with both though not in your specific situation.  You may need to make numerous applications.

I would give the stem a long spray and immediately try to rotate it. NO!  See below.  Like I said, may take numerous tries.


UPDATE:  here's a link to the product: 
http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/specialty-products/chill-zone

I was incorrect about doing it right away.  They recommend waiting a bit.  See link for details.


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## RustySprockets (Nov 2, 2017)

I never even heard of these products before, but I've seen the concept work successfully, on a sweet steel Miyata.  It saved the bike.

A colleague heated the seized parts, much like Bricycle described above, then plunged the exposed section of stem into a shallow bucket of ice water.  POP!  Well...it wasn't _exactly_ that easy, but with enough twisting, the pieces finally came apart.


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## Iverider (Nov 2, 2017)

Just curious but do you know for a fact that you've budged the wedge from under the stem? If that's still in place, you'll never get the stem out. It needs to be free of the stem entirely. Other than that, I'd say keep soaking and put the bars back on so you can get some leverage.


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## Cowboy in NC (Nov 6, 2017)

Hello Mr. Kato,
   If you`ve not got the stem loose yet, humor me and read this when you have time.
In the past few months I`ve had a total of four of these stuck stems or seat posts. Gave up on the first one- sold the Prewar Cycletruck frame as-is, tried everything I knew, soaked it with PB, WD-40 and tried heat- nothing, Even cut the stem off, so I could remove the fork from the frame-to better work on it by putting it in a vice. Finally, gave up and Sold it...  Ran across the same problem again,Prewar Dayton Frame - nice fork with stuck stem. It`s hard to say how I came up with this. Again, I soaked it for days with PB- nothing... Didn`t try heat on this one.
Let me back up just a little... I have a 1946 Columbia that I ride. A few months ago, I bought a set of Bare metal repro tanks, rack and chain guard off Ebay. I put them on the bike as-is and have never painted or even primed them. So, every once in a while I take WD and steel wool and quickly knock the rust off. Well, one day I was out of WD. So, I put some regular PINESOL, in a spray bottle and it worked as fast as the WD on removing the rust. So, I used it from then on.
  Back to the Dayton Stem--- had soaked it for days... nothing! I had spent about a half hour that day trying to break it loose--wouldn`t budge. Something sparked in my head to try the Pinesol. I don`t know why. I sprayed the stem several times- waited about 15 minutes and "IT BROKE LOOSE !" I don`t know if it is a chemical reaction between the PB Blaster and the Pinesol, or if the Pinesol is simply washing out some of the rust material and dirt that was loosened by the Blaster -or what. But it worked. A few weeks later- a stuck Seat Post in a Schwinn Phantom---wouldn`t budge. Didn`t soak it for days this time- sprayed it with PB, still wouldn`t budge. Waited 15 minutes and sprayed it with Pinesol- had it out within 10 minutes. Might be a FLUKE... maybe, but another guy on the forum had a stuck seatpost in an Aluminum Silver King. I told him about it, but I don`t think he put much belief in it. But he said he tried it. He eventually got the post out- but said it was the combination of everything tried that did it. That is my POINT...
   Okay, circumstantial evidence so far. This Week ; another stuck stem in a 1946 Schwinn Girls B6- broken stem bolt " This Junk is KIlling Me --nothing is easy!!!" Again, with the Blaster- sprayed it for a couple of days and let it soak. Wedge had fallen down, but stem wouldn`t budge. Finally had a little time to spend on it-- Tried it first to see if it would break loose--nothing ! Sprayed it with Pinesol, waited - and again had it out of the Bike in a few minutes...
   My point is---after you`ve tried everything else, spend two dollars--Humor an Old Man, and let me know if it works... I am three for three, help me with my research...
I wish You Good Luck My Friend, -------God Bless,---Cowboy
I don`t know why it works- I`m not a chemist... And, Your Bike is AWESOME !!!


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## Iverider (Nov 6, 2017)

I'll give just Pinesol a try on a stuck seatpost in a junk fuji frame I have. What could it hurt?


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## bricycle (Nov 6, 2017)

Krautwaggen said:


> I'll give just Pinesol a try on a stuck seatpost in a junk fuji frame I have. What could it hurt?



your nose!!!


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## Cowboy in NC (Nov 6, 2017)

No.. go back and read it again... I think its something about the combination of the two that works. When the PB  Blaster by itself doesn`t do the job-- Let it soak, then try the Pinesol  -Cowboy


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## RustySprockets (Nov 6, 2017)

How old is your bottle?  The reason I ask is because the manufacturer, apparently, stopped putting pine oil in Pine Sol since 2014.  Now it's just fragrance.


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## Cowboy in NC (Nov 7, 2017)

RustySprockets said:


> How old is your bottle?  The reason I ask is because the manufacturer, apparently, stopped putting pine oil in Pine Sol since 2014.  Now it's just fragrance.



I haven`t checked the ingredients... New Bottle...----Cowboy
Still trying to figure out why it works... Maybe it just washes out the rust and dirt that`s hanging on and provides even more lubricant, or maybe in a tight crack such as around a stem or seat post -it pushes the PB or WD further into the rusted/ locked area. Don`t know...
Still when You get it to break loose- it`s still the normal amount of hard work to get it out...
I look forward to more of You Guys trying it and letting me know if it worked for You or not...
I do think that on Kato`s Bike or any other- You`ve got to get the bottom wedge to drop down first- or it will never come out...


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## bricycle (Nov 7, 2017)

I just finished an old bottle of Pine sol.... it crystalized at the bottom. weird.


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## RustySprockets (Nov 7, 2017)

The dollar store carries this knock-off brand that needs tried.  If it works, the stuff just might be the cheapest rust-buster available.  If it doesn't...well, my toilet can use some scrubbin'.


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## Cowboy in NC (Nov 7, 2017)

RustySprockets said:


> The dollar store carries this knock-off brand that needs tried.  If it works, the stuff just might be the cheapest rust-buster available.  If it doesn't...well, my toilet can use some scrubbin'.
> 
> View attachment 704753



I also use it to wash up rusty parts, and fenders and frames.  Start with a five gallon bucket -half full of water--add some Pinesol and Dawn Dish Washing Liquid (the Blue Kind) and use a big Stainless Steel or Copper Scrubbing Pad. This will remove loose rust, and loose paint, especially repaint. What appears to be a rusty part to begin with- this will sometimes take it back down to original paint- where You could see no color before. -----Cowboy And, "NO, I DO NOT WORK FOR THE PINESOL COMPANY..."


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## RustySprockets (Nov 16, 2017)

So...did this stem ever come loose?  I'm just itching to know.


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## Kato (Nov 16, 2017)

I've got the stem soaking in Kroil again and I have a bottle of PineSol ready to go.
Sorry for the delay - lots going on....some serious family health issues taking up some of my extra weekend time.


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## Kato (Jan 18, 2018)

RustySprockets said:


> So...did this stem ever come loose?  I'm just itching to know.




Well, I tried 1 more time and got to the point where I was ticked off and worried I was going to ruin or break something.
I went to Plan B and took it to a local bike shop / collector and left it with him. He soaked it for about a week and got it out.
He said he rigged up 2 x 4's to the forks and put it in a really big vice and had another guy start working the stem with a bar every so often.........20 mins later it broke loose.
After hearing what he did and knowing he knew what he was doing I'm really glad I went to Plan B
While he had the bike he did a couple other things and the bike is now back home in the stand.

I'm hoping to get back at it this weekend and need to get an update on the routered rims ( not the originals ) I'm having done.

Thanks to all for the info and advice
Kato


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## Kato (Jan 20, 2018)

It's back......and time to get back at it


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## Cowboy in NC (Jan 20, 2018)

Great Bike... Glad You finally got it... ------Cowboy


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## RustySprockets (Jan 21, 2018)

Bravo!  This thread has been an excellent case study in prudence.


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## Kato (Jan 21, 2018)

RustySprockets said:


> Bravo!  This thread has been an excellent case study in prudence.




I tried the persistent approach first but then plain old common sense said it was time for prudence to take over


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## retrobuilder (Jan 27, 2018)

bricycle said:


> it looks nice now...would be great if you could just leave it in there, but not without the washer and lock nut...




*Can you spray lube under the steer tube?
Remove the partially loose collar nut.*

*Then try two things:*

!*. screw bolt about 1/2" back into the stem. Strike the bolt head with a mallet, ball pein hammer and piece of wood. to minimize bolt damage.*
2*. remove the front wheel, flip bike over and take a 1/2" socket extension or steel/brass  round metal. Srtike from bottom.

*


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## Neal405 (Jul 12, 2021)

Cowboy in NC said:


> Hello Mr. Kato,
> If you`ve not got the stem loose yet, humor me and read this when you have time.
> In the past few months I`ve had a total of four of these stuck stems or seat posts. Gave up on the first one- sold the Prewar Cycletruck frame as-is, tried everything I knew, soaked it with PB, WD-40 and tried heat- nothing, Even cut the stem off, so I could remove the fork from the frame-to better work on it by putting it in a vice. Finally, gave up and Sold it...  Ran across the same problem again,Prewar Dayton Frame - nice fork with stuck stem. It`s hard to say how I came up with this. Again, I soaked it for days with PB- nothing... Didn`t try heat on this one.
> Let me back up just a little... I have a 1946 Columbia that I ride. A few months ago, I bought a set of Bare metal repro tanks, rack and chain guard off Ebay. I put them on the bike as-is and have never painted or even primed them. So, every once in a while I take WD and steel wool and quickly knock the rust off. Well, one day I was out of WD. So, I put some regular PINESOL, in a spray bottle and it worked as fast as the WD on removing the rust. So, I used it from then on.
> ...



Let me just say WOW! I just found a mid 20's Elgin that I was currently taking apart and I found myself with a very stuck stem. I soaked it with PB and waited for what I thought would be a 2 week fight. After filling the headtube with PB I thought I would hit the cabe for some tips when I stumbled on this advice. I went back to the bike and added some pinsol to the headtube and went back inside for 15 minutes. When I returned, a couple of sharp blows to the stem bolt and it popped loose! I then gave the stem a couple of taps from the side and it loosened up and I could actually work it out by hand! I dont know what kind if witchcraft this is but it saved me a ton of hassle! Thank you Cowboy in NC this will be my go to trick! 👍👍👍


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