# Legit Black Beauty or ????



## Kato (Aug 22, 2019)

Found this bike listed for sale......supposed to be a Black Beauty - I'm not so sure
After looking it over and doing a bunch of research I don't think it is.........?
Seat is wrong era and rims look to be a lot more modern metal.......easy things that jump out.
The thing that really gets me is the head-badge. It says BB but I've never seen that style and it looks like it doesn't fit right - like this bike had a different badge originally - and the 2 dimples really get me / no idea what those are.
No BB sprocket but I found info where this style was used or at least possibly available.
Truss rod style with the 2 bars being very close is not very common. I did find a few examples including the EC Simmons shown and the one with the boy sitting on the bike ( Racycle badge ? )

I'd really like the core of the bike to be legit but so much doesn't seem right.
Really hoping for some input on it - thinking about looking at it in a couple weeks.
Tear it apart - appreciate any info, opinions etc !!!!


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## stezell (Aug 22, 2019)

Kato are those divits on the head tube below the badge or where other rivets/screws were at one time? Pretty cool looking bike man, I guess that's a Fauber chain wheel. 
Sean


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## Kato (Aug 22, 2019)

stezell said:


> Kato are those divits on the head tube below the badge or where other rivets/screws were at one time? Pretty cool looking bike man, I guess that's a Fauber chain wheel.
> Sean




Sean,
Really have no idea - that was one of the things that jump out at me. They are more like dimples and not fully drilled holes.
I keep thinking it originally had a different badge and they put the BB on it........a BB style I've never seen or can't find.
It is a kool bike and it original enough I'd consider it but just too many questions as of now.......plus the owner thinks the whole bike is original.


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## abe lugo (Aug 22, 2019)

you should look up the thread on truss frames and the unique ones. The truss on that one looks different from the drawing.
I would image it would have an older badge for that type of frame. Those era truss frames usually have a sculpted style badge.
The badges in your image at the bottom are more like 30's-40's type badges.

I have  a BB with a sculpted stamps type badge and I have yet to see another bike with the same.

Look up the BB thread also.


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## skiptooth (Aug 22, 2019)

Abe I agree about the badges , it looks like a faber one piece crank also original pat 1894 .I had some 1940;s b.b. years ago w/ the b.b. badges top center


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## hoofhearted (Aug 22, 2019)

@Kato

Horsepower added for you, young man.

1910 ... 1911 … 1912  Models …….. *SIMMONS Laclede ...Banner .. Westminster.*



….. patric


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## Kato (Aug 22, 2019)

abe lugo said:


> you should look up the thread on truss frames and the unique ones. The truss on that one looks different from the drawing.
> I would image it would have an older badge for that type of frame. Those era truss frames usually have a sculpted style badge.
> The badges in your image at the bottom are more like 30's-40's type badges.
> 
> ...




I've Searched the CABE for " truss frame " info and really didn't come up with a whole lot that helped.....also " Unique truss frame "
Am I missing it - can you give me the actual link that'll take me to that thread........?
That Model 20 pic is also the much more common style with the curved arch.......so I'd say it can't be a Model 20. 
The one I found really doesn't curve - both bars are really sort of straight from where they meet in the middle going outwards.

Actually after looking more at the pic ( zooming in ) the Model 20 info matches the bikes chain ring perfect - it has the exact same center.
The diagram that says " Good service " the center of the ring is different - no design in the very middle.

The image at the bottom of the badges was just what I could find as far as BB badges........but i couldn't find the style on the bike.
The person that has the bikes thinks it's a 1905 - were there BB bikes going that far back.........???
I've had TOC bikes and they all had wooden rims - obviously these aren't wooden.....although that's something somebody could have changed to make it ride-able.

Appreciate the info - just trying to put the pieces to the puzzle together


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## Kato (Aug 22, 2019)

hoofhearted said:


> patric,
> That's the same pic I have posted
> After I got looking at it the center of the sprocket is different from whats on the bike - not as much of a design.
> If you look at the bike sprocket and then the very center of the Model 20 pic I found they are exact........and that's a BB.
> ...




I found this - 3176 - not 3174 and it does have the exact same sprocket


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## Kato (Aug 22, 2019)

hoofhearted said:


> @Kato
> 
> Horsepower added for you, young man.
> 
> ...





Simmons bike with a BB badge on it somehow.............
Oh boy - sensory overload but fun trying to figure out the mystery / story...........
The 2 dimples still don't make sense - EC Simmons badges I find have 2 holes - center top and bottom

Going to try and get some sleep - will dive back in tomorrow 
Thanks for the help !!!


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## hoofhearted (Aug 22, 2019)

@Kato 

1913 and 1914 Models … Laclede .. Banner .. Westminster .. Boy Scout .. Autocycle

Horsepower added ………..


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## hoofhearted (Aug 22, 2019)

*Admittedly, what I know about the parent company of these bicycles … 
could be written on a single grain of rice -- with plenty of space left over 
to contain the lyrics to ''The House Of The Rising Sun''.*

*..... patric*


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## lgrinnings (Aug 22, 2019)

I've seen a Simmons Westminster that looked identical to this bike... Here's an earlier truss frame catalog page, although with a larger chainwheel and a more curved looking truss (the one I've seen in person looks straighter)...


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## lgrinnings (Aug 23, 2019)

This is the one I’ve seen...


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## lgrinnings (Aug 23, 2019)

Take this with a grain of salt, but both of the brands (Simmons & Black Beauty) were jobbed to a multitude of manufacturers over the years I believe. It's entirely possible that the bike in question is a Black Beauty from the same outfit who manufactured the Simmons cycles, especially where the badge style (flat, die-cut brass) resembles the style (material approach but not shape) of the teens Simmons bicycles. It's a sweet bike regardless.


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## hoofhearted (Aug 23, 2019)

@Kato 

Horsepower Added ……………………...

….. patric


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## Kato (Aug 23, 2019)

First off thanks to all that have added info and their opinions..........
I'm trying to get some more info and pics so we'll see how that goes.........and I'm asking about being able to see the bike in person.
I'm still digging for info..........badge with 2 dimple holes gets me......but still a damn kool bike !!!


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## Archie Sturmer (Aug 24, 2019)

More catalog pictures; (forget which year).



Looks like the 20" frame.
So, did H.P. Snyder build frames for E.C. Simmons in the teens or twenties?
Was it the (later) "Laclede" badge with the diagonal holes for fasteners?


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## Kato (Sep 9, 2019)

Was in the hospital a couple days so my trip out of town was cut shot but I got a few minutes to stop and look at the bike and take a few more pics
I could not find any serial numbers or stampings anywhere unless I missed them.
There is a hole in line with the top badge hole - just no screw. I took a couple close ups and few other pics
I'm thinking somebody here is going to recognize the decal on the downtube..........it's pretty clear - I'm thinking Haverford Cycle Company.
Bad part is that the bike has been black spray bombed - not crazy bad and certain parts were taped off but no pins are visable.
I can go possibly see it again possibly in 2 weeks........if more info is needed


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## Goldenindian (Sep 9, 2019)

That is the  Haverford Cycle Company decal. Suppliers of the  Black beauty bicycle.
Thanks for sharing. 


https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/w...d-mont-wards-de-luxe.32151/page-6#post-750210
This thread is a good read.


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## Kato (Sep 12, 2019)

I normally wouldn't ask about value but I have to this time since I have absolutely no idea on this one.
I'm still interested in it - love the frame style, head badge - Black beauty and the frame itself looks solid.............
Bad points modern wheels and bubs, seat, been spray painted etc.......but I still like it.
Not sure what I'd try and do to it if anything. Would sorta be scared to try and remove paint to see if anything original is save-able.

Open to opinions please.....what is it worth ???


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## Kato (Sep 12, 2019)

Bumping - looking for a little help / opinions on what it's worth as-is


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## bricycle (Sep 12, 2019)

Value:
Frame, fork, fenders $400
wheels, tires $150
Chain wheel $125
Pedals $50
Stem, bars $100-$125
Lamp $75
Total $900 ish
Badge $100?


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## Kato (Sep 12, 2019)

bricycle said:


> Value:
> Frame, fork, fenders $400
> wheels, tires $150
> Chain wheel $125
> ...




Thanks Brian !!!!


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## Kato (Sep 13, 2019)

Bumping 1 more time - looking for 1 or 2 more opinions
Thanks in advance
Kato


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