# Need help with bike identification



## floridasfavson (May 14, 2008)

I got this bike a few days ago from a gentleman who has owned it since 1942.
He said he bought it used and that it was probably from the late 1930's. He also said it might be from montgomery wards. I posted some pics on another site and most people think its a wards Hawthorne. Here are some pics of the bike.


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## Aeropsycho (May 14, 2008)

*bike*

1936 Hawthorn Zep... 

J...


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## RMS37 (May 14, 2008)

Hi

I would date your bike between 1937 and 1938.  Your frame was manufactured by the H.P. Snyder Company and, judging by the chainring pattern, is one of the bicycles that they supplied to Montgomery Ward, which Montgomery Ward badged and sold as Hawthornes.

The frame style you have is like the one used on the first version of the Hawthorne Zep model as shown in the spring-summer 1937 and fall-winter 1937-1938 catalogs

Snyder produced several variations of that frame dating probably as early as late 1935 and possibly as late as 1940+. In addition to being sold as Hawthornes, these frames were marketed by the D.P. Harris company as Rollfasts and with myriad other badges.    

The earliest of these frames had top tubes that were closer together and they will not accept the tank that fits the later frames like yours. In 1936 Snyder used a locking collet seat binder arrangement. Functionally this was not a good design and Snyder returned to a pinch bolt clamp like the one on your bike for the 1937 model run. The very late examples of this bike generally have curved truss rods, drop stand tangs and would have later pattern rims than your bike.  

While people now refer to this style of Snyder frame generically as a ?Zep? frame, the only real Zeps are those originally sold as such by Montgomery Ward.  Zep was the model name given by Hawthorne to their top of the line steel framed bicycles between 1937 and 1940. Over the period of time the Zep moniker was used, the actual bicycle it was applied to changed year to year. 

Among the special features that differentiated the first version (spring-summer 1937 and fall-winter 37-38) Zeps from the lesser models was a locking fork. Some used a key lock built into the fork crown and others had a lock protruding from the head tube similar to a Manton and Smith lock but larger and on the left side rather than the right. While you don?t have the later, your photos don?t show the back of the fork crown to tell if a fork crown lock is present. Either version of the built in lock is rare and, needless to say, desirable.

Without the locking fork the bike is more likely to have started life as a Comet or a Sport, two other Hawthorne models from this period.    

The saddle, grips, chain guard and pedals on your bike are probably 1960?s transplants but otherwise your bike appears generally period correct. It also appears that the front and rear junctures of the lower top tube may have been re-welded at some point. The rear connection of this tube is a vulnerable point and I have seen several of these frames where this has come adrift. As these started out as flush, not fillet joints, they are difficult to restore correctly. 

As this is your first post I hope I haven?t deluged you with too much information. If you would like more info I suggest studying the photos on Dave Stromberger?s site, and finding a copy of the Elgin/Hawthorne book which is a collection of reproduced pages from old Sears and Wards catalogs.

Phil


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## old hotrod (May 14, 2008)

RMS37 said:


> Hi
> 
> Snyder produced several variations of that frame dating probably as early as late 1935 and possibly as late as 1940+. In addition to being sold as Hawthornes, these frames were marketed by the D.P. Harris company as Rollfasts and with myriad other badges.
> 
> ...




Phil, I have a bike that is badged "Speed" from St Louis and sounds like the bike you described in the first paragraph. Mine looks very similar to the "Clipper" pictured on the other forum page except that the tubes may be closer together and the head tube, straight down tube and second top bar all meet at the headtube. It also has curved fender stays instead of the straight stays like the aforementioned "Zep." Sorry to hijack this thread and if you would prefer, please feel free to pm me. I will be posting photos in the future. Thanks for the info, David


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## RMS37 (May 14, 2008)

David,

Happy to help if I can, I have seen Cleveland Welding produced bikes with the Speed badge so if it is similar to the Clipper on the other post that may be what you have. Post your pictures and I'm sure we can figure out what it is and when it was made

Phil


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## old hotrod (May 14, 2008)

Just to add, I checked the ser number and it X12578 if that means anything to you. Thanks again.


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## floridasfavson (May 15, 2008)

Yeah the guy I got the bike from said he crashed it back in the 40's and had to have the down tube welded back to the neck. I may try and clean the weld up alittle bit. I am going to try and make it look original again the best that I can. I need to start searching for a tank and front fender light. Thanks for all the help. This is a great site.


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## floridasfavson (May 15, 2008)

I started working on the bike today. I checked the fork and there is a lock on it. I will try to get some photos up of the lock.


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## RMS37 (May 15, 2008)

I just caught your post and wanted to send a quick reply.

If there is a receptacle for a key built into the back of your fork then the likelihood that your bike started life as a real Hawthorne Zep is essentially assured.  

Actual Zeps probably account for less than a tenth of a percent of the similar Snyder ?zep style? frames originally built. So, again I?m excited to see one surface!

If you are beginning to work on the bike I would suggest proceeding with caution.  If the bike is a Zep, outside of seat and other bits added later, many of the parts are special to that model. Replacing any of the correct parts (special fenders and truss rods) with incorrect parts in better condition will actually hurt the value of what you have.  In addition, the frame repair required will have to be indistinguishable from the original flush joints to make for a meaningful restoration of a significant bicycle. The correct parts you don?t have are not common and generally not inexpensive but they can be found.  As many people try to replicate a Zep without having the locking fork, you are way ahead of the game starting with perhaps the rarest part of all.   

It is essentially a given in the current market that even a significant bicycle in rough condition, needing frame repair, and missing significant parts will not return the cost in dollars required for a full correct restoration.  The general advice in the hobby is to search out a complete original in the best condition you can find or buy someone else?s restoration and profit from their loss. On the other hand, if a person is interested in restoration for the sake of the enjoyment inherent in the process and the satisfaction that comes with it?s completion, then a rough original Zep is an excellent place to start.  

I?m looking forward to the fork pictures, and would be happy to forward more info on what you need to look for to complete your project.

Phil


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## floridasfavson (May 16, 2008)

Here are the pics of the lock mechanism on the fork. I don't have the key unfortunately. I am starting to look for the rest of the parts for the bike (i.e. tank, front fender light, rear rack, etc. )


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## RMS37 (May 18, 2008)

That is definitely a Zep fork .  Here is a copy of the 1937-38 add for the Zep





The differences I note from the Spring-Summer 1937 catalog are the curved truss rods and the headlight. Your bike with straight truss rods (which are thicker on Zeps than other models) is earlier and probably had the non-faceted headlite with the tail fin.


And to David, 

The “X” makes me think Snyder, especially if the locking collet seat binder is the part of my post you were referring to.  I have a Snyder Hawthorn with an X serial number (although Snyder number seem to be all over the place, alpha-numerically, and I can’t discern any straight forward pattern from them) 

Post a picture, I’m sure we can figure out what you have

Phil


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## RMS37 (Jun 5, 2008)

Here is the ad again


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## RMS37 (Jun 9, 2008)

Hi

Since you are about to have your Zep frame repaired and you are looking for a tank I took these photos this weekend. The two frame photos show the joints on an undamaged Snyder frame for reference.  The frame was built with internal sleeves so a repair should appear bead-less.  If you can grind a V shaped groove around the front joint, fill that with weld, and file it smooth you may be able to make an invisible repair. The rear joint almost looks like the tube extends into a hole and is welded from behind. Again, you may be able to duplicate this by cutting back, welding deep and then finishing the surface.

The other photo shows a 1938 Hawthorne Comet tank (Cleveland Welding built) above a 1938 Snyder built Zep tank. While the two tanks look similar, the frames they fit are different and they do not interchange. As they look similar without a direct comparison, the distance from the louvers to the horn hole is a good reference.  Snyder also produced a version of the black tank with horizontal louvers which will physically fit the Zep frame but is incorrect for a Zep.

Hope this is helpful and good luck with the frame repair.

Phil Marshall


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