# 1938/39 Hawthorne identification help please



## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

I'm very excited to say that, today I'm going to pick up my first Pre War Skiptooth bicycle. It's a 1938/39 Hawthorne. I'd like help identifying the exact model, year if possible, and also what parts are incorrect or missing. The seller has stated that the rear rack is incorrect, possibly from  Schwinn. I'd like to know if the chain guard is correct for sure and any other parts that may need changing. The saddle of course is newer but, looks great and I'll probably be leaving it. 

Once again, I'm stoked! Thanks.


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## jpromo (Jan 28, 2015)

The rack is actually correct, as is the 38-39 assessment built by HP Snyder. Since this is not the fully deluxe Hawthorne Zep model, it likely did not come with a chainguard. This one is a universal aftermarket piece. Chainring is Western Flyer and pedals are 70s. The important parts are all original though, with just some easy pieces to swap, making it correct. Looks like there may be some original paint left under the spray job too. Cool bike; enjoy!

Here's a catalog image:

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle87/picture207


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## Jeff54 (Jan 28, 2015)

Based on the welding and seat stay I'd expect that at earliest 40-41 and may be newer. by this period manufactures were electro welding and the rear drop out and bars to head post appear so. during and just after war most bikes would have a combination of brazing and electro weld. So, because all of the forward bars appear to be electro welded it's possible post war. 
disclaimer: I know nothink about hawthorns!


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

Hard to say from the pics, but it looks like the fenders don't match. The front looks peaked and the rear not...is that so? 

Looks like your wheels are newer than the bike too. The hub might have a large brake arm with NEW DEPARTURE in big letters: 1950s.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

From bikes and catalogs I've seen, 1939 took a longer rear fender with horizontal brace. 





What's the serial #? I can compare it to the bikes here.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

Is that black paint I see under the red?


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## catfish (Jan 28, 2015)

Cool bike. I love these frames.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

The original paint was sand blasted off by the last owner. It was semi restored, then had a faux patina added. 

As far as the fenders go, I'm going to look it over one more time before finalizing the deal. 

So the crank is incorrect?


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

Drummerboy said:


> The original paint was sand blasted off by the last owner. It was semi restored, then had a faux patina added.
> 
> As far as the fenders go, I'm going to look it over one more time before finalizing the deal.
> 
> So the crank is incorrect?




Yes, crank and chain ring are not original to that frame.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

Here's the deal. I'm trading this1969 Stingray that I rat rodded for the Hawthorn. Good deal or no?


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## tripple3 (Jan 28, 2015)

*Trade away*

I would trade for the Hawthorne. I would rather ride it. Value is personal....


Drummerboy said:


> Here's the deal. I'm trading this1969 Stingray that I rat rodded for the Hawthorn. Good deal or no?


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

I would do it 
To me the frame, seatpost, fork, trussrods and (maybe) front fender look 1939, everything else from other bikes. Bike "should" have the headset with dustcover. Check to see if the headset is tight but still knocks when rocked. Top nut looks Schwinn, not convinced the rack is right, similar, but not right IMO. Wheels 1950s CWCish with that groove toward the outside.
Rear fender possibly Zep, can't say from pics. 
From what I've seen 1939 was the first year Hawthorne used the curved trussrods on this frame. They were on other Snyder "motobikes/fastbacks" but not Hawthorne. 1936-1938 used the "straight" trussrods.


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## Jeff54 (Jan 28, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> Looks like your wheels are newer than the bike too. The hub might have a large brake arm with NEW DEPARTURE in big letters: 1950s.




Aren't those wheels also a match to that western flier chain ring, or post war rims?


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

Thank y'all so much for the input! From what I can tell, the rack, front fender and headlight are correct. The rear fender, crank and chainring are not. The chainring and crank I'm not too concerned about, but the rear fender will need to be replaced, as it is really messing with my OCD. 

I'm not planning a full correct restore in it. I just want to tear it apart, repaint it, and make a nice cruiser out of it.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

tripple3 said:


> I would trade for the Hawthorne. I would rather ride it. Value is personal....




Thanks for the info. Yea I built the Stingray for a local Rat Rod build off we had. The bike is horrible to ride, but fun to look at.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

jpromo said:


> The rack is actually correct, as is the 38-39 assessment built by HP Snyder. Since this is not the fully deluxe Hawthorne Zep model, it likely did not come with a chainguard. This one is a universal aftermarket piece. Chainring is Western Flyer and pedals are 70s. The important parts are all original though, with just some easy pieces to swap, making it correct. Looks like there may be some original paint left under the spray job too. Cool bike; enjoy!
> 
> Here's a catalog image:
> 
> http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle87/picture207




Thanks for the link!


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

Could very well be wrong, but I see differences in the carrier. I know there should be 2 holes at the axle, but the legs look too short for this bike...? Might just be bent, but the angle at the neck is off.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

So they had skiptooth into the 50's? How late did companies use that style drive train?


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## Euphman06 (Jan 28, 2015)

Drummerboy said:


> So they had skiptooth into the 50's? How late did companies use that style drive train?




That question comes up a lot... most people associate the rear facing drop outs to prewar but in fact they were used up into the 50's. I've seen early 50s to maybe '55, but I don't ever recall seeing late '50s models with the rear facing drop outs. It all depends on who built the bike as well.


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## jpromo (Jan 28, 2015)

To me, carriers on these bikes always look off because the frame is so radical. They're often angled strangely. I quite certain this one is original to this bike. Hawthorne 5-bars also used this carrier.. it looks more like a universal one with all the extra holes, but they were factory. The angle makes it hard to tell, but I think the rear fender is peaked and original as well. I know that Snyder Hawthornes had this fork and truss rod setup on their '38 5-bars, but I don't know about the '38 sportbacks.

I do agree that the wheels are likely from the Western Flyer the crank was harvested from. I've known 50s CWC products to have used those flat-top rims with the small lip. They supplied to Western Auto at that time, so it's quite possible.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

jpromo said:


> I know that Snyder Hawthornes had this fork and truss rod setup on their '38 5-bars...




I see curved rods on a Monark built Twin Bar model in the Hawthorne book, but no Snyder images...share?


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## Jeff54 (Jan 28, 2015)

Drummerboy said:


> I'm not planning a full correct restore in it. I just want to tear it apart, repaint it, and make a nice cruiser out of it.




And since that rat stingray has yet but a Schwinn frame of notable intrest, I'd also do the trade for that same reason. hell even if I had no plans to paint it.

Just the  probable western flier rims are clean enough to make the Schwinn frame it's equal. lol.


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## jpromo (Jan 28, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> I see curved rods on a Monark built Twin Bar model in the Hawthorne book, but no Snyder images...share?




Can do! This is the only catalog image I've seen that shows a Snyder built twin-bar:


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

AFAIK those rods are tubular aluminum; they were on the original Snyder/Hawthorne Twin Bar I had a while back.


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## jpromo (Jan 28, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> AFAIK those rods are tubular aluminum; they were on the original Snyder/Hawthorne Twin Bar I had a while back.




This is true, they were aluminum on the twin-bars. So the forks were around in '38 with at least aluminum rods, possibly leading to a steel rod redesign for '39.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

jpromo said:


> This is true, they were aluminum on the twin-bars. Either way, the forks were around in '38 with at least aluminum rods, possibly leading to a steel rod redesign for '39.




Well the Hawthorne "motobike" _forks _were the same '36-'39, but they used different rods: straight at top 1936-1938, curved for 1939.
Said it before but will say it again: this is what I've observed, and what I don't know could just barely be squeezed into Dodger Stadium.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok, so with everything said, what year does everyone think it is? 

I brought it home today btw.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

So is the rear fender peaked like the front?
What is the serial #?


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> So is the rear fender peaked like the front?
> What is the serial #?




Yes, the rear is peaked just like the front, so I believe it's correct. I'm currently at the airport waiting to pick up my wife, but when I get home I'll send you the serial on here. Thank you so much for your help!


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

Cool, that # can be compared to bikes that have a known year. But given the bike is known to have been put together (the extent unknown) IMO the parts that are on it can't be used as a reference for dating.


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## jpromo (Jan 28, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> Well the Hawthorne "motobike" _forks _were the same '36-'39, but they used different rods: straight at top 1936-1938, curved for 1939.
> Said it before but will say it again: this is what I've observed, and what I don't know could just barely be squeezed into Dodger Stadium.




I know it; there are few definites in this hobby and we only have observations and sometimes speculation to go on. I'm on board with your theory here, though. One other footnote I can add to mental catalog.


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## jpromo (Jan 28, 2015)

In the end, I'd lean towards all the body pieces being correct--frame/fork, fenders, carrier, light. Then universal guard added where there wasn't one originally, wheels and crank swapped. I'd lean '39, but let's see a serial to compare.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

I'll say 1938 frame and fenders, 1939 truss rods.
How about asking the guy you got it from what he put it together with?


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> I'll say 1938 frame and fenders, 1939 truss rods.
> How about asking the guy you got it from what he put it together with?




I did not get the bike from the gentleman that Putnam together in this form.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

Here's the serial number! 






73546


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## spoker (Jan 28, 2015)

just throw the rear rack on the for sale section and ride the bike and enjoy,lose the CORRECT drama that so often over rides the fun of bikes in general,bikes were mage 2 ride were they not?


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

A better photo.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

spoker said:


> just throw the rear rack on the for sale section and ride the bike and enjoy,lose the CORRECT drama that so often over rides the fun of bikes in general,bikes were mage 2 ride were they not?




Absolutely. As I stated earlier, I had no intentions of a correct resto. I want to eat it up, maybe repaint it, and enjoy it. It will be my next entry for the 2015 Little Rock Rat Rod Build Off.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

Looks like a Z to me. There are 3 1937's and 3 (what I think) are 1938 with "Y" here.
4 1939 bikes: 2  "A" and 2 "H". 
One lone dropstand-ear frame only: "Z"
Inconclusive!


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> Looks like a Z to me. There are 3 1937's and 3 (what I think) are 1938 with "Y" here.
> 3 1939 bikes: 2  "A" and 2 "H".
> One lone dropstand-ear frame only: "Z"
> Inconclusive!




Yes, it's a Z! Well darn....  So no way of knowing the year then?


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

I think it's common knowledge that with me pretty much anything goes "modification"-wise, and it's no secret that I'm a little nutty over these frames. 
One thing that interests me about these bikes: They are common, not hard to find, evidently _lots _of them made.
Perhaps _the most common_ pre-WWII frame? 
But there's basically no information compiled on them. I think it's because while they're cool looking bikes, they're not rare, and they weren't deluxe/expensive when new (exception: Zep).  Many (most?) did not have tanks, racks, or chainguards...so nobody cares!


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## scrubbinrims (Jan 28, 2015)

Drummerboy said:


> Absolutely. As I stated earlier, I had no intentions of a correct resto. I want to eat it up, maybe repaint it, and enjoy it. It will be my next entry for the 2015 Little Rock Rat Rod Build Off.




Then what difference does it make knowing if the chainguard is correct et al as in your first post, let alone the year of manufacture?
I dont fault your intentions for this piece.
Chris


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## rustjunkie (Jan 28, 2015)

I stand corrected: in the Rollfast book  there's a 1939 Motobike Deluxe model shown with a non-horizontal brace and short rear fender. I must have overlooked it because it has a tank.


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## catfish (Jan 28, 2015)

I have about 40 of these frames..... Now that's nutty!  These have always been on of my favorite frames.


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## tripple3 (Jan 28, 2015)

I have been told mine is a 39 badged peerless serial number has an A








I really like this frame design too maybe that's why there's so many of them there's always someone to build another one and ride it.


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## spoker (Jan 28, 2015)

page 15 of my crusier book shows a bike VERY similar to this bike,its nor a known namejust lists it as a twin bar streamlined crusier,cant take a pic inside but could do it tomorrow if anyone is interested or ir someoe else has the book take a look!HEY that rymed


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

If anyone has a rear stand for mine, I'll buy it.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 28, 2015)

scrubbinrims said:


> Then what difference does it make knowing if the chainguard is correct et al as in your first post, let alone the year of manufacture?
> I dont fault your intentions for this piece.
> Chris




At the time I was trying to decide if I should do the deal.


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## rollfaster (Jan 28, 2015)

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in also. One of the coolest frames ever built, even though it's not all correct is of no matter. The fact that it still exist at all is great no do what you like and ride the hell out of it. My 37 is not even close to original but it gets loads of attention when I take it out and is one of my favorite riders. Congrads to you for getting it. Rob.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 29, 2015)

rollfaster said:


> I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in also. One of the coolest frames ever built, even though it's not all correct is of no matter. The fact that it still exist at all is great no do what you like and ride the hell out of it. My 37 is not even close to original but it gets loads of attention when I take it out and is one of my favorite riders. Congrads to you for getting it. Rob.




Thanks for everyone's help. I'm going to clean it up, repack bearings and ride it. I was just wanting to put an actual year in it. Who doesn't want to know the correct year of their bike? 

Anyway, thanks again!


Here's a 1937 Zep that, with the exception of the chain ring and chain guard being different, looks just like mine. The rear rack not only looks the same, but has the same odd angle as mine. 

https://bicycletrax.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/the-most-elegant-bicycle-ever-made/


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## rustjunkie (Jan 29, 2015)

"What year is that bike??!"
The question I usually hear right after:
"Is that a Schwinn?"
Yup: it's nice to have an answer. Safe to reply: 1938 or 1939, there are no records for these so we don't really know.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 29, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> "What year is that bike??!"
> The question I usually hear right after:
> "Is that a Schwinn?"
> Yup: it's nice to have an answer. Safe to reply: 1938 or 1939, there are no records for these so we don't really know.




I don't think it's a 1939. The frames are different on them. The top tube and the tube under it where the tank would fit are more curved on the earlier bikes. Click the link I posted in my last reply.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 29, 2015)

Except this bike isn't a 1937, will bet $1 it's a 1938:






I think it is safe to say that 1937 bikes can be identified by 2 features: traditional seatpost bolt, and no ears for drop stand on rear fork ends. 
1938 and 1939 bikes have the dropstand stop "ears" on the rear fork ends.

Year is best determined by the frame, not parts that can be switched/added like carriers, cranks/chainrings, etc, especially when dealing with a bike that's been changed around.


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## catfish (Jan 29, 2015)

View attachment 193698

Very cool. I see this bike was originally from Boston, Ma.


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## Drummerboy (Jan 29, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> Except this bike isn't a 1937, will bet $1 it's a 1938:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You sir are correct! Also, 1937 had a slightly different head light and 1939 had a different curve to the frame where the tank might go. So I'm going to say it's a 1938.

This is awesome! I really appreciate all the help.


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## tripple3 (Jan 29, 2015)

*My bike now...*

It is! I bought it from the guy who got it from...http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...ou-Original-Paint-Peerless&highlight=peerless
I replaced all bearings with new. Now Im working on getting it TAN!!  
Very cool. I see this bike was originally from Boston, Ma.[/QUOTE]


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## Drummerboy (Jan 29, 2015)

Can anyone tell me if my seat post is on correctly or is that backwards?


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## Oldnut (Jan 29, 2015)

One I picked up in the late fall a great rider 37-38?


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## fordmike65 (Jan 29, 2015)

Just been flipped back for more legroom. Lord knows these bikes need it.


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## Drummerboy (Feb 15, 2015)

If anyone has a rear stand and and fender click, please message me.


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