# Frame identification fun...



## Schwinny (Jul 11, 2022)

This bike came in to the collective and someone working here immediately called dibs on the Rims and hubs (Phil and Wolber).
The rest of the bike was Early Dura Ace and Suntour.

There are no ID Decals anywhere on the bike. The only ID factor that I can personally tell is that the Campy BB's pitch is 24F. I imagine the F stands for French but I dont know. I see no holes in the head for a badge so it must have originally had a decal.

Real nice lugs and real nice fork. I have a loose fork like this in my personal stash that has Nervex on the steerer and Reynolds 531 lights stamped into one of the legs. This one has pointed stiffeners on the inside of the legs from the crown down 2".
No shifter bungs, it had Suntour bar end shifters on it when it came in
It weighs 8.4 pounds as pictured so probably a high tensile frame. 
Anyone have one similar? got any ideas.
We are deciding whether to paint it and build it back up or be rid of it / its parts. Everything still on the frame is Campy.


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## juvela (Jul 11, 2022)

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the "F" marking indicates filettatura, the Italian word for thread (in the mechanical sense of the term)

the frame's bottom bracket thread has a pitch diameter of 36mm and a pitch of 24 TPI

cycle clearly an Italian product from roughly around the "bike boom" period

headset & bottom bracket assembly appear to be Campag NGS, possible machine was originally kitted with this ensemble





tubing not high tensile; frame and fittings too nice for this

it is likely some form of A.L. Colombo such as SP or Sl

a second possibility might be Falck

you should be able to read a marking on the steerer

if steerer has interior seven helical splines it is from A.L. Colombo ("Columbus")

lug pattern appears to be Prugnat S serie -





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your loose fork is far more likely to have a NERVOR marking on its steerer than a NERVEX one

NERVOR is a second tier french frame tubing brand





many french cycle producers who nominallly build with eleven tube Reynolds will "cheat" & employ a NERVOR steerer in order to save a few centimes.   this a wide practice in France.  the calibre of the NERVOR alloy steel is below that of the Reynolds.
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## Schwinny (Jul 12, 2022)

Thanks for all that. Always good to put all the pieces in their place.
It was disassembled completely today and the BB is indeed Italian.
It's a 21" frame  and a slight ding in the downtube so it will be scrapped.
It's hard for me to do that but it's true, we don't sell many small roadbikes. The ones we do, have to be branded. The crowd is getting smaller.


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## juvela (Jul 12, 2022)

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would think there are many members here on the forum who would be delighted to have it

perhaps you could put a notice up so it would not have to go to the knackery

no doubt you know well your market😉


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## rstytnsp (Jul 13, 2022)

looks like an early 70's Fiorelli, also sold with different labels like Coppi, and Mirella.


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## Schwinny (Jul 13, 2022)

rstytnsp said:


> looks like an early 70's Fiorelli, also sold with different labels like Coppi, and Mirella.



There is a pic of the back of the seat post. Notice the Identification.


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## rstytnsp (Jul 13, 2022)

that's the front


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## Jesper (Jul 13, 2022)

TheCollective said:


> There is a pic of the back of the seat post. Notice the Identification.



What size is the seat post stamped? You may have a very decent frame of higher end tubing. If Columbus "SL" the post size should be 27.2mm; if "SP" it should be 27.0mm. If Columbus (or even another high end tube set), I doubt that there would be "SP" tubes used on a frame of that size (<58cm seat tube; frame looks to be 53cm-ish) unless a custom built with a mixed tube set of "SL" & "SP" tubes.
Given all the frame frame pieces (drop-outs, braze-ons) are Campagnolo I would suspect this to be at least one of the higher end frames made by that builder. I doubt that it is a high tensile frame (stays might be though). I also doubt that a Campy Gran Sport (or higher) gruppo would be on a high tensile frame. It could be a "Tre Tubi" frame if the weight isn't what you would expect from a lighter weight build. Hard to judge its weight if your number includes the bottom bracket, headset, seat post and binder bolt. I would be curious to know its weight when completely stripped of parts. Also, the chrome tends to put it as a higher end frame. If the dent in the down tube is located at the point where the front caliper would hit it then it should probably be okay relating to the frame's geometry (down tube not bent). I would certainly be interested in the frame if it was in my vicinity and someone was trying to get rid of it for next to nothing. Even if that frame was built with Campy's Nuovo Gran Sport group it would still be a great ride both as a decent frame and an above average component group for the time.
I have not seen a Columbus steerer with 7 ridges, only with 5 (6 ridges on the Super Vitus steerer). Possible that the frame (Tre Tubi or not) is Columbus, but the steerer/fork was used on a lower cost model (entry to mid-level) whereas the reinforced Columbus fork may have been on the same exact frame, but built up with the next higher level component group (Nuovo or Super Record) to be marketed as the "pro" race model.
Are there any drain holes in the BB shell? Are the brakes externally nutted mount, or recessed nut mount? If recessed I would expect the frame to be more late 70s-early 80s (leaning more 70s given the lack of bottle mount braze-ons regardless of brake mounting type)). If the Suntour or Shimano parts were original (doesn't seem likely though) you can check the date codes (if any) and maybe get a better idea as to its age. Even then, if the parts were replacement, you may be able to use those dates as a "no later than" manufacture date of the frame (unless some one put on parts older than the frame). What does the rear fork space measure; 120mm or 125-126mm?

If you want to ship it I would pay that cost (if not too exorbitant!) if you plan on scrapping it. You can PM me if that is the case.


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## juvela (Jul 13, 2022)

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@rstytnsp       -

the Mirella cycle marque bears no relation to Fiorelli

it belongs to the firm Officine Meccaniche Leri of Milano

also produced by them are cycles with the names Leri and Re De Foss


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		https://flic.kr/p/q4kNyz









						FS Cicli Mirella, Leri, Re De'Foss catalog $30
					

Many cool kids bikes.




					www.flickr.com
				








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there are two Coppi cycle marques

machines marked simply Coppi are produced by Fiorelli

while those marked Fausto Coppi are produced by Fratelli Maschiaghi, S.p.A.

Produzione Cicli F.lli Masciaghi, Coppi, Girardengo, Mash ...http://www.masciaghi.it

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## rstytnsp (Jul 13, 2022)

I guess I was fooled by the remarkable similarities between 70's Fiorelli construction and same era Mirella.
Since there were other labels besides Coppi (made by Fiorelli), I thought Mirella was one of them.


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## juvela (Jul 13, 2022)

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a marque owned by Fiorelli is that of Vittoria






























no relation to the Vittoria rubbergoods products

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## Jesper (Jul 13, 2022)

I believe Mirella was made by Leri; who also made bikes under other names. That just seems to be a higher quality frame than some Leris I have seen, but they probably made some higher end models also. 
My early Fiorelli made Coppi (60s) does not match anything on that frame; and it is definitely not an F. Coppi model from the 80s and later.


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## juvela (Jul 14, 2022)

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forgot to mention above -










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the subject frameset's bottom bracket shell appears to be the BOCAMA Professional

this good looking pattern widely employed on quality frames during the 1970's and into the early 1980's





here it is in the flesh as worn by a Gazelle Champion Mondial of 1979 -






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fork crown -

several makers offered patterns of this type

included were Georg Fischer, Prugnat and Vagner but none look to be an exact match

the Georg Fischer is a flat topper so that puts it out as the subject crown is clearly a semi-sloper









the Vagner DL appears it may be very slightly sloping but not enough to match the subject fitting -





Prugnat's model 1093 is a crown of this general shape but does not match up well -





...at least without some reworking...

perchance another reader shall recognize the subject crown

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## juvela (Jul 17, 2022)

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one feature not as yet discussed are the flanges on the bridges

note how they exhibit a cutout on one side and not the other

this is a seldom seen arrangement

usually bridge flanges or reinforcements are solid or cutout on both sides

the seat stay bridge here is solid in its upper portion and cutout in its lower

the chain stay bridge is solid in its forward portion and cutout in its after portion

this is the sort of detail which may help the forum's frame experts such as @MauriceMoss



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## Jesper (Jul 17, 2022)

@juvela I had noticed the cut-out bridge reinforcements and will compare to my other frames. Fairly common BB shell on better frames in Italy so not much help in ID'ing.

I was told that this bike frame is gone to the scrapyard already. An unfortunate loss unless someone picks it before the metal salvage guys or crusher get it. Easy $50 craigslist sale as is where I'm from even with the ding. If I was in the area I would have tried to track it down and tossed the scrapper $10 for it. From what I could tell it was definitely not the low entry level model; but at least a mid level plus tourer/racer. Seat post diameter would have provided a good idea as to the tubing level, but given the time frame I would assume Columbus tubing and not just a high tensile tube; butted or straight gauge would have been the next determinant in the frame level. I would have done an easy solder fillet on the down tube ding and then a quality single dark color paint job to set off what appears to be decent chrome features and clamp-on components. It would have made a nice classic Italian lightweight daily rider with some fenders for commuting. Throw on some custom decals to make it my own, and add a "Made in Italy" flag decal just to provide some respect.

I think it looks a bit like a Vicini frame I have; need to check just for laughs (although I'd cry if I knew a Vicini was tossed). I'm pretty sure the stay caps and drop-outs (eyeletless?) are different regardless.


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## Schwinny (Jul 17, 2022)

This bike is a Mirella. Looks like match.


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## juvela (Jul 18, 2022)

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thank you

good job

silver frame a good match for the blue save that their shells differ

two examples of how blue frame may have been kitted ex-works






			Mirella bicycle, 1972, page 1
		


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18

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## Jesper (Jul 18, 2022)

Checked on my late 70s Vicini frame just to compare. Many differences: BB shell, fluted stay caps, lug cut outs, reinforced Columbus steerer, Columbus "SL" tubeset (27.2mm seat post), drop-outs w/o eyelets, etc. Brake bridge may be different, but can't tell from photo.


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## juvela (Jul 18, 2022)

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in about 1973 an importer/distributor in the San Francisco area brought in a batch of these

there were two road models and that was it

a local bike rebuilder friend bought several of them
he had a tax number (resale license) so he could purchase from wholesalers

had the opportunity to see both models up close at his home

what will call the "A" model was kitted with a Campag NR road ensemble save for Universal Super 68 brakes

the "B" model exhibited interesting component selection:
Campag Sport chainset
Campag Record gear ensemble
Campag NT hubs
Campag NGS headset
NITOR pillar & saddle
Way-Assauto quill pedals (high quality)
3TTT Record stem/bar set
Universal Super 68 brakeset

the subject blue frame must have commenced life as the "B" model
"B"'s wore a tubing transfer stating they were constructed with a house brand tube set termed "AQ 35":






forum discussion on this set here -






						LERI "Mirella" bike Tubing designation AQ 35
					

Is anyone familiar with the tubing designation AQ 35? It is on an entry level "Mirella" model LERI made bike with Campagnolo: steel "Sport" (3 spoke) cranks, Nuovo Record rear mech, Record front derailleur, Record shifters; Ballila brakeset; 3T Record stem. The tubing decal states: "Tubi...




					www.retrobike.co.uk
				




there is a breakdown here on one example of a "B" model -









						Leri Mirella
					






					www.pedalroom.com
				




how OEM this kitting may be is likely debatable...

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from examples viewable on the interwebs sales of the model "B" seem to have outstripped those of the model "A" by many fold

kitting of these cannot be relied upon as ex-works correct

enthusiasts would often strive to move them to a NR road ensemble level by changing fittings as opportunity and purse permitted


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  Mirella


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## Jesper (Jul 19, 2022)

Thanks for those bits of info related to the Leri (Mirella) bikes. I was going to purchase one set-up with commuter bars. It had a mix of Nuovo Record and  Gran Sport/Nuovo Gran Sport parts. Unfortunately I won the auction, but the reserve (unknown while bidding) was set so bloody high ($500) that it was not worth it, and the bike was being sold by someone without any cycling knowledge except that they knew the Campagnolo name and figured it must be worth a lot more than it was (it was not all original- cheesy comfort saddle and block pedals). I could never get the owner to give me the seat post size since I was trying to determine what the AQ 35 tubing equated to. I ended up bidding again (and won) after the reserve was lowered ($450), but still not even close to the reserve again. I ended up schooling that woman as to what she had and its reasonable value. Given my bid and shipping cost it was just not worth pursuing any further. The bike was a commuter style bike more condorino-like but dual gearing up front (OE fenders and flat bar) with a nice set-up other than the saddle and pedals.


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## Jesper (Jul 19, 2022)

As a side note: I took a quick look here for other Vicini's, but no examples from members so I will post the late 70s-very early 80s frame in a separate thread to provide an example.


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## juvela (Jul 19, 2022)

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unlike some of the other oytoy marques the forum has discussed in recent months this one has an entry at CR:





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						Vicini, main
					





					www.classicrendezvous.com
				





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Mirella anecdote -

me friend who purchased those new Leri mounts fifty yar back related to me the story behind them he got from the distributor -

"the maker was a steel fabricator not directly in the cycle trade

a customer ordered a lot of cycle frame tubing sets and then could not complete the transaction

so the steel fabricator decided to use them to build bicycles

the Mirella name comes from the head of the company whose face is emblazoned upon the head transfer"

this sounded quite improbable to me for all of the same reasons it must sound improbable to you but of course had not the means of pursuing the matter

seems comical in view of our present knowledge of the manufacturer

possible there may have been a grain of truth in there somewhere...

reminds me of the parlour game where participants sit in a circle and one person commences proceedings by whispering a message into the ear of the person next to them and the procedure goes on until the circle is completed when it is found that end message bears no relation whatsoever to the initial one

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## rstytnsp (Jul 20, 2022)

John W. Murphy was the importer in SF, on Shipley street SOMA.


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## juvela (Jul 20, 2022)

rstytnsp said:


> John W. Murphy was the importer in SF, on Shipley street SOMA.




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thank you!

Jack Murphy was a machine tool man from Vallejo, California

he was fluent in Italian so being a stockist for Italian products was a natural for him

something of a sponsor to local cycling clubs giving them an insider price on his Coppi/Fiorelli badged machines

business seemed to disappear ~1983, causing me to wonder if it had been victim to the recession of 1982


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## rstytnsp (Jul 20, 2022)

He brought in Vikings and Penines from England too. A Major distributor of Fiamme rims, which partially explains their prevalence in the Bay Area 60's-70's.


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## juvela (Jul 20, 2022)

rstytnsp said:


> He brought in Vikings and Penines from England too. A Major distributor of Fiamme rims, which partially explains their prevalence in the Bay Area 60's-70's.




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thank you

had not known of the Viking & Penine marques as being stocked by him

recall seeing the Penines at a small neighbourhood shoppe in Pleasant Hill

always remeber them for the distinctive image of pine trees on a hillside they wear upon their seat stay caps

he was also a stockist for Specialites T.A.


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