# Westfield frame??



## prbowden (Apr 12, 2020)

Hello I need information for this frame. Westfield????  Davis ???
Year ????  Thank you


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## fat tire trader (Apr 12, 2020)

Can you take a picure from the backside of the sprocket? Does the crank have a peg that goes into the sprocket like most one piece cranks?


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## prbowden (Apr 12, 2020)

crank pictures


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## SKPC (Apr 12, 2020)

Yes, looks to be an early Westfield.  20's perhaps.  The double-D crankset and cool trumpets on the frame suggest this. The fork,  if still with the frame, would have been the clincher in ID-ing it...nice frame though...


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## Mikexz (Apr 12, 2020)

Oxcialic acid will bring out orginial color real nice...


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## Archie Sturmer (Apr 12, 2020)

So you likely have a Westfield double D drive *crankset*; have you also made any assumptions about the motorbike *frame* itself?
The 6-digit serial number and stamp font reminds me of another frame manufacturer.
What size is the diameter of the truss tube?


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## prbowden (Apr 12, 2020)

Tube


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## SKPC (Apr 12, 2020)

Archie Sturmer said:


> So you likely have a Westfield double D drive *crankset*; have you also made any assumptions about the motorbike *frame* itself?
> The 6-digit serial number and stamp font reminds me of another frame manufacturer.
> What size is the diameter of the truss tube?




This is what I like about @Archie Sturmer ...he always considers the good chance is that some or all of the parts on frames have been swapped out at some point...so many years of use..  He suspects I am sure that those trumpets were not typical Westfield...although I have seen a few on these westi moto frames,   the pronounced nature on both ends that he mentions would suggest not Westfield but some other maker.....being fooled is easy, being right is hard...


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## fordsnake (Apr 12, 2020)

There are so many variables and similarities with pre 1920 bikes! That chainring looks more like Premier Cycle Works and not Westfield?



Westfield cutouts were more coffin shaped.




The dropouts look more like Excelsior or Schwinn..not the signature Pope or Westfield design?




I maybe totally wrong...but sharing information is how we can all understand and learn about the mysteries of these bikes.


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## SKPC (Apr 12, 2020)

Hmmmmm...While Davis used trumpets alot, Davis had sideways serials (for the most part but not always @hoofhearted  ).  See this 1919 Davis frame @Goldenindian below.. Your top tubes are very tight together compared to this Davis...Could even be Consolodated manufacturing perhaps or even Great Western, who had this style of serial number:  a letter code then 5 numbers.


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## Freqman1 (Apr 12, 2020)

I agree that this is not likely Westfield. I think the badge ghosting should offer a good clue. I kinda thought Great Western or Excelsior but this is outside my wheelhouse and think @fordsnake might be on it. V/r Shawn


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## Archie Sturmer (Apr 12, 2020)

> more like *Schwinn*...



I thought that the serial numbers looked like Schwinn or Emblem, or Mead (but then if Mead was a jobber, who made the parts for them).
Emblem used smaller truss tubes, but it does not look small; Schwinn used large truss tubes, so I asked for a measurement, but got a picture that makes the top tube look small.  And another asked for pictures of the back side of the sprocket, but got pictures of the front. 
I have seen Miami built Meads, but Miami may have used the small truss tubes like Emblem.  Don’t know the differences between Mead and Premier.
The variations of the coffin chain ring have me thinking about my own assumptions.


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## fordsnake (Apr 12, 2020)

And here’s where we start peeling back the layers...Mead acquired Premier Cycle Works...so there's is a possibility the frame could be a Mead?

Interestingly, the frame does have design similarities of the Sears Chief made by the Davis Sewing Machine Co. (of course the Chief didn't have the trumpet lugs). But Sears was notorious for plagiarizing and rebadging manufacturers top tier bikes then would sell them for less in their catalogs.

Plus, they had a strange relationship with Davis...some say they controlled Davis, had them manufacture several spin-off name brands. (I haven’t found evidence of any coercion just this small article).


There's plenty documented evidence that Sears was Davis's biggest client and when Sears ended their contract with Davis to make their sewing machines, it forced Davis to file bankruptcy!

Also did you know Sears proudly promoted their owned bicycle manufacturing factory…stating they made almost everything in-house…or did they?  It’s a mystery!






Plus, during this period manufactures didn't have control of their product's destiny...it was the jobbers who control everything! They were feeding the mail-order “beast,” supplying and buying for them in large quantities!  Or assembling their own nameplate bikes. They'd secretly purchased from multiple manufacturers and if complete bicycles were not available, they would buy just the frames and piece the bikes together (the forks and cranksets were in the jobbers’ wheelhouse). No one was the wiser? Because who was checking that the parts were incorrect? This was a big issue with the manufacturers! *This may account for the many unexplainable parts and anomalies found on bicycles from this period? *This frame maybe a jobber's special brand?
*



*

Then there were the second hands bikes! This frame's origins may have been a trade-in or even stolen. Parts; chainrings and handlebars, and saddles were swapped out and frames repainted....this was pervasive nationwide.

*


*

Then there were the manufacturers with their overstock bikes, selling them to whom ever for cheap.


Everything I've posted above is merely food for thought...there were so many unknowns during this period. Asking to ID a frame with so little to go on is very difficult...the best we can do is to offer wild conjectures.  Shawn's absolutely right...your best bet on ID'ing this frame is finding the badge that matches the ghosting on its head tube.


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## SKPC (Apr 14, 2020)

Below from the sprocket compilation thread is a picture of what is believed to be a Pope/Westfield with the round ends instead of coffin-type ends on the fingers........see below.  It could be that this chainring is original to the frame and either early Westy or Pope....


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## fordsnake (Apr 14, 2020)

...ah yes, the mystery as to the DD sprocket's origin...was it really proprietary to Pope?


The honor for the patent on the DD chainring goes to Charles Dikeman.

The chainring was linked to the Eagle bicycle line.










Eagle went out of business sometime in 1904-05? Its possible that Pope may have bought the patent? I don't know.
Sorry, I digressed for a minute...I just wanted to give you a nugget about the DD chainring.

Back to mystery of the frame...is it a Westfield? Well, SKPC gave us part of the answer in the #14 posting. "...from the sprocket compilation thread is a picture of what is believed to be a Pope/Westfield with the round ends"

What's omitted from the source https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/sprocket-compilation-pic-heavy.41683/ *SQRLY* #4 posting, _"seen on a late 20's or early 30's Hawthorne Flyer motobikes..."  _

Guess what? Voila!











If I were a betting man...I'll put my last dime down that this frame's ID is a Hawthorne!


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## fordsnake (Apr 14, 2020)

...of course that now leaves the ghosting on the badge. That's still a mystery?


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## SKPC (May 6, 2020)

Great thread!   Bump!   Fordsnake...be careful my wise friend as you are not a betting man!  But betting your last dime?   As you mentioned earlier it is extremely difficult to id a frame maker to begin with from this period and unless the head badge is intact it is even more difficult:  sad to say most badges on these old frames have been removed. And remember that the "jobbers" or wholesalers that put bikes together for retail or mail order outlets pieced bikes together and the buyer was unaware this was going on as shown in your news articles...  Many retailers or mail order outfits could have had this bike put together by jobbers.  The 1st Hawthorne picture you posted above seemed to me to be dead-on to the mystery bike/crank and I was about to bet also....until I looked at the bend in the top tubes and collared truss connection to the seat mast and lack of trumpets.    Even so, this bike could still very well be a Hawthorne-badged motorbike regardless of the frame differences...I still want to know who made the frame...


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## BatWaves (Jun 24, 2020)

If I were a betting man...I'll put my last dime down that this frame's i.d. is a Hawthorne!
[/QUOTE] 

I own a Westfield Built ‘29 Hawthorne Flyer
But... I read somewhere that the
Hawthorne De Lux was Schwinn Built.

Lastly, I have this drive side crank I have yet to identify. Similar to the two piece above.


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## lgrinnings (Jun 25, 2020)

Headbadge? Barnes or similar?


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## SKPC (Apr 15, 2022)

Very good read, bump. Teens/early 20's information for the era provided by @fordsnake above.
The frame in question may be a Schwinn with early Pope/Westfield crankset/ring? @dasberger  Interesting the way the artist rendered the
look of the one piece crank at the sprocket interface on the 1930 ad below.


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