# 1850's bike



## Dan the bike man (Nov 16, 2013)

Ok I got this bike, well I call bike dispite it pre-dates pedals. One source called it a "running machine". I'm looking for any and all information I can get please. Someone told me Leon Dixon is good at these. I don't know him but will be put in touch with him. Does anyone here know anything about these?
 The bike is over 7 feet long, over 4 feet tall and I'd guess it is over 100 pounds! Looks hand hammered iron, seat and everything looks that old -to me anyway. Thank you!


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## Andrew Gorman (Nov 16, 2013)

That one moved fast... More discussion about it at:
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?49721-Trade
Some more shots of the tops of the forks, bars, dropouts,etc. would definitely help.


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 16, 2013)




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## fordsnake (Nov 16, 2013)

Dan the bike man said:


> Ok I got this bike, well I call bike dispite it pre-dates pedals. One source called it a "running machine". I'm looking for any and all information I can get please.  Thank you!




It's called a Draisine...predates the Boneshaker


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 17, 2013)

Thank you, I didn't know the name of them. Have you seen others? Do you know if everything is correct on mine and about how much the value is? Thank you again I love learning about these!


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## fordsnake (Nov 17, 2013)

Dan the bike man said:


> Thank you, I didn't know the name of them. Have you seen others? Do you know if everything is correct on mine and about how much the value is? Thank you again I love learning about these!




Here you go...https://www.google.com/search?q=dra...oHAAg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1839&bih=1024


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## Andrew Gorman (Nov 17, 2013)

Unfortunately it looks like it's been arc welded at all of the joints, a technology that wasn't around until the 20th Century, and if those welds are repairs, it is a method that does not work very well on 19th century wrought iron, which has many layers of slag hammered into it.  In the 19th century an iron bike frame and fork would have been hammered out in one piece by a blacksmith, maybe aided by  a power hammer.   Here are some pictures of a ca. 1869 machine taken apart for a comparison:
http://s53.photobucket.com/user/gormanao/library/ca 1869 Boneshaker?sort=3&page=1
How does it ride?  There are a bunch of bike geeks in England who race around on Laufmaschinen-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFCrHsrZGT4
Looks like fun! I love the sound of steel tires on pavement....


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 17, 2013)

I don't know the first thing about arc welding. But the fact that it's 20th century technology makes sense. To me (again I know nothing about welding of any kind) it looked as if the maker melted iron and let it drip on to the frame. Not sure if that makes sense.
 There are things about this bike that make it seem correct like the handle grip looks used-worn not made to look worn. As do the wheels. I've been around antiques all my life and know things can be made to look old.
 All my online searching (even the links above) fail to show something EXACTLY like this. All of the ones online are different style. I've looked at originals and repops and nothing is like this.
 On Mikes original post in the Antique bikes thread he stated he was told it's original so I'm taking that to be fact but I need to be put in touch with an expert in these. I hope Leon Dixon whom I'm going to be put in touch with - or someone else can give me a 100% sure answer of when this was made, and where. Repairs don't bother me, as long as the over-all bike is early 1800's.  
 Lastly while looking at the handle grip I noted it says "patented" and "size 3" no date is given for the patent however. I'm only guessing but I would think a 1850's era patent would not have a date, but a later one would? Just a guess. 
 I welcome any and all feedback if you know about these. Everything is another piece of the puzzle.


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## Andrew Gorman (Nov 17, 2013)

You can check at the Wheelmen board- I actually posted about this bike there a few days ago. There is not that much traffic through it, so don't expect a lot of replies right away.   It is odd machine- Draisiennes faded from view in the 1830's, and it wasn't until Lallement/Michaux came up with pedals that two wheelers came back, and they were large wheeled to get reasonable gearing and with a short wheelbase.  Yours is definitely large wheeled and long wheelbase and no sign of pedals.  The seat is awfully low and far back to be effective if there ever were pedals.  Is there any sign of a missing spring between the head and the rear axle? Or is the seat at a reasonable height for someone to scoot it along like a dandy horse?  Here's a good contemporary book on the subject:
http://books.google.com/books?id=aT...d=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=velocipedes&f=false
That can give you an idea of what people were thinking a bike should be at the time.  One of the Wheelmen thought it could be a pedal-less trainer from a rental rink, but the geometry is completely different than most other velocipedes.    For what it's worth, the grips in my velocipede now are from an old auger handle, but the metal bit with the patent info didn't make it on to the bike.  Yours is an interesting puzzle.  Because of the welds I'm leaning towards it being a newer home made piece using an older pair of buggy wheels . and something else re-purposed as the grips.


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 17, 2013)

*So is there a chance it's 1850's era?*

I had just joined the wheelmen group when I came back here to see if there were any new posts. I guess I should have done more homework before buying it but it sounds like there is still some hope that it was a bike related item from the 1800's with later repairs? And am I understanding correctly that your grips had the patent metal ring, and that mine is from a fishing pole? There is no sign of springs ever being under the seat. I am hoping I can find someone who lives or comes to MI who is an expert and can look at it in person photos only do so much good. Thanks again! It's very interesting to learn about.


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## corbettclassics (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm not a real expert on the Hobby Horse but, I have been studying them for some years now.  Seeing this one, my first observation was - "Replica".  
I believe it's something someone made up in the 50's or earlier/later.  People always think they have a real one and want to believe it's real, then pass it on to someone
else and tell them it's real too.  I hope you didn't pay much for it!  If it turns out to be a fake ( which I'm sure it is ) I would
take it back to the guy I bought it from and ask for my money back.  Unless you really want it, then accept it as a possible fake. ( it will be like winning the Lottery if it's real )

Kind of like buying a Rolex watch and not knowing about Rolex watches.  He told you it was real.  Then find out that it might not
be and it turns out to be a fake.  What do you do?   Unless you really want to wear it ……. then accept it and go on.  Always best
to know what you're buying first.

A real Dennis Johnson Hobby Horse ( if you can find one ) will cost you upwards of about $80,000.00 today.  There are other Hobby Horses in Velorama if you want to see some.
A replica Dennis Hobby Horse will cost you about $1,500 last time I checked.  The Mennonites will send it to you as a kit and you paint it and put it together yourself.  Check out
the Dandy Chargers in the U.K.  A group that I've been involved with for a few years now.  There's some beautiful replica Horses there.  Google - Dandy Chargers



  Nothing like a real one!!!


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## thehugheseum (Nov 17, 2013)

it looks like a recreation of some sort to me too..........but i am/was still interested but i was told it sold?


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## vincev (Nov 17, 2013)

Are those hex nuts on the bike?? Square nuts were used into the 1900's but I am no expert.


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 18, 2013)

Well yesterday I was still telling myself "it's 1800's but repaired". But more signs are pointing to it being a repro. I paid more than "cool factor" money thinking it was 1800's. What Mike (prewarbikes4sale) posted in the Antique bikes thread is (copy and paste "Early find....What I have found out mid 1800's Original with some period repairs. Pretty cool!"  I have talked to some bike collectors not on the CABE and they are all saying it's 1900's. 
 As some of you know I was collecting Schwinn tank bikes but after buying a 1916 Indian in the summer I started looking for pre-war bikes, and wanted a 1890's bike so I'd have a 1800's bike. I thought wow here's a EARLY 1800's bike! And so I spent enough on this one to pay for a few 1890's bikes.
 I'm very disappointed!


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## prewarbikes4sale (Nov 18, 2013)

*Please post your findings*

Please post your findings from creditable experts. I stand by the person I asked that said "it had some originality to it" Mike


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## corbettclassics (Nov 18, 2013)

*Knowing what you're buying and selling ...*

If you want a little more research to see what a Hobby horse really looks like, go to
http://www.sterba-bike.cz/section/museums?lang=EN

Go to the Velo Museums and browse.  There are several example as to what "real" ones
look like.  Then go on bicycles for sale and look at some of the Boneshakers.  I know if
you bought something here, he would tell you if it's real or a copy and you would have
no worries from buying from someone legitimate in this field.  A credible seller.

You could always forward your pics to him and see if he would buy it and he may give you
his opinion on its legitimacy too.  Also Gertchan at Velorama is an excellent source. ( not sure
if I spelled his name correctly )

Your bike is a good mystery but you'll soon find out if it's real or a copy.  This era of bike is most
difficult and you need lots of research to know what you're buying.

Good luck ..


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## prewarbikes4sale (Nov 18, 2013)

*PM from Dan*

you be the judge I am done



Default Re: 1800's Bike 



Hi Mike,
 I know they are just giving their 2 cents, they are not experts. I'm hoping to find a REAL expert. I hope you don't take me looking for info as me thinking you missinformed me. I know you are not 100% sure what this is. It is old but I'm just trying to find out how old, what it's use was (road or indoor rink) etc. I like it, and just want to find out more. It's really cool. And value is just so I know. If I find a real expert and he says it worth $1,500 I don't expect a refund, but if an expert says it's worth $6,000 then I will also not pay you more. In other words it's a done deal. I like dealing with you and hope to do more business with you at some point if you have something I want or I get something you want.
 Dan


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 18, 2013)

I contacted Copake auctions since they deal in early 1800's bikes and related items, They said it does NOT appear to be 1800's made (I sent close-up clear photos). Everyone except Mike thinks it's 1900s even the "experts". I asked for a redund and was turned down.
 DO NOT BUY FROM HIM! Does not stand behind what he sells!

 I was trying to be calm and kind until I got a reply from Copake and others. If it was 1800's and had 1900's repairs so what. But it's not "mid-1800's original" as stated.

 I spent my bike account on this! I'm so burned out on bikes. I love bikes but this just ruined that. Be careul who you trust! I thought being a dealer he would stand behind what he sells.  
 Be crareful who you trust!


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## prewarbikes4sale (Nov 18, 2013)

*PM*

Another PM form Dan

Default Re: 1800's Bike 



Yep, I can tell they don't know. I was told of this Leon guy who's a friend of a friend who is said to be a expert in early bikes. But my feeling and findings seem to lead me to think all sorts of people were making bike-like objects back then. There were not companies let alone catalogs (however most collectors can agree what is "correct" for a 1950 Schwinn let alone a 1850's style "bike") so no one will likely know for sure. I'm hoping to one day find someone who knows if the seat cover is 1850's correct, if the frame is 1850's correct. They are old but are they 1900 old or 1855 old? No one knows. I'm just hoping they are 1850's old. I agree it looks reapired - you stated that also. I don't mind reapirs. My real feeling is that it was a one of a kind (but not the high value type of one of a kind) home made item, with the reapirs and worth about what I paid. It may take years to find out REAL info. or I may never find someone who is not just guessing. No matter, it's cool!


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 18, 2013)

WOW! A dealer running down a collector! Not very professional! Items sell fast here on the CABE, but learn from me people, do your homework and ask others about the seller, even if he's a DEALER! I trusted Preswarbikes4sale (Mike) and look where that got me. Do NOT go on trust!


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## Andrew Gorman (Nov 18, 2013)

I agree- the bike is not as he represented it, and playing dumb is not a professional excuse.  If you are not satisfied he should take it back.   Hopefully Prewar bikes will have his bikes "for sale" for very long time to come.  I pointed out a red flag when he first posted the bike here, and then he clammed up, red flag number 2.


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## prewarbikes4sale (Nov 18, 2013)

*Still*

I still have yet to read where anyone with knowledge called it a "fake" as a matter of fact the question you asked on the Wheelmen site seems to be answered to the contrary Andrew!


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 18, 2013)

I contacted Leon Dixon who owns mid-1800's bikes, and knows a LOT about them and he said it's FAKE. Three people sent me to him and that was his reply - it's NOT from the 1800's! Also like I said before I contacted Copake auctions and they said it doesn't look right. 
 I fail to understand if you are so sure it is real, then why not give my money back and sell it to someone else? I've talked to the experts and the experts say it's not 1800's! It's 1900's!


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## prewarbikes4sale (Nov 18, 2013)

*Delivery*

I drove 6 hours to deliver you the bike and you inspected it and paid me and told me you have been around antiques all you life and it's old and looked Blacksmith made. why now is it my fault?


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 18, 2013)

1st it was dark out, 2nd I thought it looked 1800's but never bought a 1800's bike before (not even 1890's), 3rd you said it was mid-1800's original and I trusted you. No one will force you to refund my money, but from the PMs I've got I don't think too many people trust you at this point. As upset as I am about this, I will praise you as a good business person if you just stand behind what you sell. If I sold something - anything and it was not what I said I'd offer a quick refund. It's the right thing to do. In the end it's up to you.
*If you care about your image on this site give a refund. If you care more about the profit you made on this, don't issue a refund. It's all up to you*


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## walter branche (Nov 18, 2013)

*you bought it*

There are many clues that the machine was altered , you purchased the machine and now it is yours , ..if it was an original , draisiene, laufmachine, pedestrian curricle, or whatever and whoever calls it, the money would be in the 50, 000  plus range for an authentic machine with reputable provenance.enjoy what you have, remember if it sounds to good to be true , you know the rest of the song ,.  Walter branche ,


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## squeedals (Nov 18, 2013)

prewarbikes4sale said:


> I drove 6 hours to deliver you the bike and you inspected it and paid me and told me you have been around antiques all you life and it's old and looked Blacksmith made. why now is it my fault?




I don't think it's ANYBODY'S fault here guys. The bike in question has a lot of mystery attached to it and I get the feeling neither of you knew what it really was, if it is a fake or if it's real. Was it advertised as a mid 1800's bike? Was there a question in the add by the seller saying something like "I'm not sure" How up front a seller is goes a long way in avoiding buyers remorse and sellers anguish and putting his reputation on the line.


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 18, 2013)

*Here's what he said*





Mike's quote and link to original post: "Early find....What I have found out mid 1800's Original with some period repairs. Pretty cool!"
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?49517-Mid-1800-s

 "mid 1800's original" is the key here. That's where I based my purchase.


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## squeedals (Nov 18, 2013)

Dan the bike man said:


> Mike's quote and link to original post: "Early find....What I have found out mid 1800's Original with some period repairs. Pretty cool!"
> http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?49517-Mid-1800-s
> 
> "mid 1800's original" is the key here. That's where I based my purchase.




Yes.....went back and read the posts. So seller said HE was told it's mid 1800's. That's a bit vague, but you are right and it is about trust, but I get the feeling the seller didn't really know what he had. So the bike gets passed from person to person over the years. Price as some here have stated can be an indicator of authenticity. If it walks and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.  Reading the original thread, no one put up any red flags, which is odd for this bunch and some replies were from seasoned CABE members, but something that unique is a tough one. I hate to ask.......if you don't mind, what did you pay?


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## Andrew Gorman (Nov 18, 2013)

I'm not going call myself and expert but I do own and ride a Velocipede and have a strong interest in the dawn of cycling.  My first thought when I saw the bike was "Oh my.  Someone got hosed".  I didn't want to come right out and say "It's a fake" since I had not seen the bike in person and out of politeness. I asked for some more pictures which showed bar stock, mismatched buggy wheels and arc welds.  Not good signs for an original.   If you are selling something, you need to know what you are selling.  If you are buying something, you need to know what you are buying.  And the old saw "The customer is always right" still holds true.  Take a look at all the one star reviews on Yelp...


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 19, 2013)

Well it's been 24 hours since this turned into a hot topic. I have talked to more collectors of early 1800's bikes who know what they are talking about and it's all the same post-1900 because of welds. I'm praying for Mike. I'm praying Mike will do the right thing and either refund the money or at least trade a few bikes worth at least the purchase amount. I've spent hours online emailing, on the phone, searching the web. I've talked to several who really know their stuff. I hope to get this over with this week. But sadly I guess I'll have to take it to court if it's not worked out. I'm not the type to do that but the collectors I'm talking to have said I should. I talked to my lawyer and he said I could. Turns out there are collectors in SE MI who could even come to court and say it's not "mid-1800's original".  I just want it to be over with and for peace to return to my life, Mike's life, and to the CABE as I'm sure you all are tired of it as well. For now I'll keep praying this works itself out.


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## squeedals (Nov 19, 2013)

Dan the bike man said:


> Well it's been 24 hours since this turned into a hot topic. I have talked to more collectors of early 1800's bikes who know what they are talking about and it's all the same post-1900 because of welds. I'm praying for Mike. I'm praying Mike will do the right thing and either refund the money or at least trade a few bikes worth at least the purchase amount. I've spent hours online emailing, on the phone, searching the web. I've talked to several who really know their stuff. I hope to get this over with this week. But sadly I guess I'll have to take it to court if it's not worked out. I'm not the type to do that but the collectors I'm talking to have said I should. I talked to my lawyer and he said I could. Turns out there are collectors in SE MI who could even come to court and say it's not "mid-1800's original".  I just want it to be over with and for peace to return to my life, Mike's life, and to the CABE as I'm sure you all are tired of it as well. For now I'll keep praying this works itself out.




I suggested Small Claims this morning on the Break Room......good luck my friend.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Please let me be clear here--I'm not taking sides in this matter but the question begs to be asked "Given all the resources you've tapped since you bought the bike why didn't you do your homework before you bought the bike?" V/r Shawn


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 19, 2013)

Freqman1 said:


> Please let me be clear here--I'm not taking sides in this matter but the question begs to be asked "Given all the resources you've tapped since you bought the bike why didn't you do your homework before you bought the bike?" V/r Shawn




 The bike, as you know was listed for "trade" only. I asked on Thurday if there was a price. First the reply was no. Then a second email Friday morning said a price. I sent a reply "Well would you take x amount?" He said no. I was told there were other cash offers and he would deliver the bike that evening. The sale went down quickly, and I was at work when the emails were exchanged. I went with my trust in Mike rather than my smarts. Had I said "well if it sells before I do my homework oh well". But the fact remains it was posted as "mid-1800's original"  I should not have trusted Mike, as he lied.


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## scrubbinrims (Nov 19, 2013)

If a bicycle is offered here at the Cabe, the first buyer to put money in the seller's hands get's it and there is often not the time available to mull it over or research it properly....not like an auction that has a defined end point.
The experienced or saavy collectors have the instincts that don't allow others that kind of time.

If I was the seller, I would take the bike back but deduct my time and gas from the first trip and the buyer also would have to make the provisions to return it.
This is not a public court and I'll hold any other opinions to myself.

Chris


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## squeedals (Nov 19, 2013)

Dan the bike man said:


> The bike, as you know was listed for "trade" only. I asked on Thurday if there was a price. First the reply was no. Then a second email Friday morning said a price. I sent a reply "Well would you take x amount?" He said no. I was told there were other cash offers and he would deliver the bike that evening. The sale went down quickly, and I was at work when the emails were exchanged. I went with my trust in Mike rather than my smarts. Had I said "well if it sells before I do my homework oh well". But the fact remains it was posted as "mid-1800's original"  I should not have trusted Mike, as he lied.




As it was posted as " mid-1800's original" then that is what a buyer would expect to receive for the money. The seller's post was short and sweet and as far as I can tell, had a good reputation here on the CABE ( he has an outstanding collection of bikes on his web site which is quite impressive) So, let's say the seller truly believed he was selling the real McCoy and it turns out to be a fake, why would the buyer have to eat any return costs? Are we to think that if a fake is sold that's advertised as an original, that because the seller was unaware, then the buyer is partly guilty and should pay to get his money back? How many of you would accept that one on other transactions? So the buyer has to suffer the sellers bad investment choice and blunder and should have been smart enough to spot the pig in a poke?


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## kccomet (Nov 19, 2013)

i dont know the seller i dont know the buyer, but i do know a little about buying and selling. something like this should be researched before a purchase. i saw the pic and thought repo, replica as prob most did. i dont know what you paid but it does have a cool factor. as walter stated if it was    real it would prob be worth 10 to 15 times what you paid for it. if it was worth 40,000 would you go to the seller and say you sold it to me to cheap. if you hadnt looked at in person it might be different. all that said i might give the money back but after youve outed the bike and questioned the sellers honesty..... good luck and lesson learned things like this have happened to a lot of us. it is a cool conversation starter


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## prewarbikes4sale (Nov 19, 2013)

*lAST TIME*

Dan admits in this PM I told him I was unsure and still am. He also stated that if he made a score he would not give me money and not he would not ask for money back. who lied? Clearly not me.



*Hi Mike,
 I know they are just giving their 2 cents, they are not experts. I'm hoping to find a REAL expert. I hope you don't take me looking for info as me thinking you missinformed me. I know you are not 100% sure what this is. It is old but I'm just trying to find out how old, what it's use was (road or indoor rink) etc. I like it, and just want to find out more. It's really cool. And value is just so I know. If I find a real expert and he says it worth $1,500 I don't expect a refund, but if an expert says it's worth $6,000 then I will also not pay you more. In other words it's a done deal. I like dealing with you and hope to do more business with you at some point if you have something I want or I get something you want.
 Dan 


I enjoy all old bikes*


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## squeedals (Nov 19, 2013)

prewarbikes4sale said:


> Dan admits in this PM I told him I was unsure and still am. He also stated that if he made a score he would not give me money and not he would not ask for money back. who lied? Clearly not me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This sheds more light on the deal. If you did in fact tell the buyer you were not sure, then the seller is SOL, plain and simple. This email would be enough to get any SCC suit thrown out. Bad case of buyers remorse.


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 19, 2013)

Well looks like I'm stuck with the thing. I got screwed over. I said I would not ask for money back IF it was "1800's original" - it's not so I asked. and got screwed over! All I can do is warn others and keep others from getting screwed over.  
BUYER BEWARE!!!


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## prewarbikes4sale (Nov 19, 2013)

*I do agree about one thing if you agree with Dan please dont buy from me*



Dan the bike man said:


> Well looks like I'm stuck with the thing. I got screwed over. I said I would not ask for money back IF it was "1800's original" - it's not so I asked. and got screwed over! All I can do is warn others and keep others from getting screwed over.
> BUYER BEWARE!!!




Really another PM


Dan the bike man's Avatar 

Dan the bike man 



 Dan the bike man is online now Finally riding a big boys bike  


Join Date:Jan 2013Location:MichiganPosts:344


*Default Re: 1800's Bike 



Yep, I can tell they don't know. I was told of this Leon guy who's a friend of a friend who is said to be a expert in early bikes. But my feeling and findings seem to lead me to think all sorts of people were making bike-like objects back then. There were not companies let alone catalogs (however most collectors can agree what is "correct" for a 1950 Schwinn let alone a 1850's style "bike") so no one will likely know for sure. I'm hoping to one day find someone who knows if the seat cover is 1850's correct, if the frame is 1850's correct. They are old but are they 1900 old or 1855 old? No one knows. I'm just hoping they are 1850's old. I agree it looks reapired - you stated that also. I don't mind reapirs. My real feeling is that it was a one of a kind (but not the high value type of one of a kind) home made item, with the reapirs and worth about what I paid. It may take years to find out REAL info. or I may never find someone who is not just guessing. No matter, it's cool! 


I enjoy all old bikes. *


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## Dan the bike man (Nov 19, 2013)

I've decided the stress is not worth it. I forgive Mike. I will keep praying for him. I've listed it for sale or trade for 1800's bikes which is what I was originally looking to buy. I want to say I'm sorry to the other CABE members for getting some of you involved. I feel I was wronged. Mike feels I was not wronged. But in order to heal I must forgive and move on. God bless!


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## squeedals (Nov 19, 2013)

Dan the bike man said:


> I've decided the stress is not worth it. I forgive Mike. I will keep praying for him. I've listed it for sale or trade for 1800's bikes which is what I was originally looking to buy. I want to say I'm sorry to the other CABE members for getting some of you involved. I feel I was wronged. Mike feels I was not wronged. But in order to heal I must forgive and move on. God bless!




Good for you! Peace.......


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