# But it followed me home from work, what is it?



## gkeep (Feb 1, 2019)

Hi All,
Never thought this would happen but I rescued another TOC frame today from a scrap metal box. I walked by about 8:30 and the box had a few items in it, came back by about 10:30 and this frame was in the bottom. The metal in this box comes from about 40 tons a day of debris/trash/crap collected by DPW trucks all over San Francisco. About 15 years ago I pulled my 58 Schwinn American from this area.






Once I get it home maybe my wife will let it stay on my side of the bedroom, (really, it won't hog the covers).





The repaint was done way back when, no rims, seatpost or bars. The inside of the head tube is rusty like there has not been a stem in there for decades. I was "giddy as a school boy" when I pulled it out. If it had been Cristmas morning I'd have sent a turkey to the Cratchits. The Elgin chain ring made me think 20s Hawthorne Flyer but the the attached truss rods with internal htreads on top threw me. During some lunch research I ID'd the frame as Westfield, maybe late teens. (Thanks to FordSnakes info in the Hendee Indian/Westfield thread). In that thread he mentions that they had a factory in San Francisco that opened in 1910 and in 1916 Westfield was contracted to make motobikes for Indian.

Maybe it's just someone really old Parts Bike from the depression years??

Don't know if there will be much original paint under the repaint but there are traces of red here and there.







Traces of red but maybe nickel plating too under that.







Anyone recognize this headbadge shadow?? It looks familiar but I can't place it.



I think Serial # is 31718 but that may also be the remains of a letter.



Top of one truss is smashed. Note internal threads at top of rods.




Thanks for looking and any information or suggestions on origins. Quips, bad puns and repair suggestions also happily accepted.
Gary


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## Brian R. (Feb 2, 2019)

"One man's trash is another man's treasure" - literally. The ghost badge image is a giant S, which shouldn't be too hard to figure out. Superman, Schwinn, Shelby, Shimano, Sears, Spalding, Supercycle, Singer, Solex, Sunbeam, Stearns, Sammy's Hardware.... ok I'm done.


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## Jesse McCauley (Feb 2, 2019)

"Standard" is one that comes to mind to me that was used into the 10's, 20's and 30's , Stormer was earlier but they used a large S badge as well.


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## hoofhearted (Feb 2, 2019)

@gkeep 

Westfield-Built STORMER.

There are many, many badge variations ....
from the earlier days, previous to the 
purchase and re-establishment of the
marque, by Westfield ... of which this 
machine is an example.  

There are a few variations of the STORMER 
badge out there -- from Westfield ... and some 
of those Westfield variations may OR may not
say Westfield.  Some random STORMER 
badges below ... from the Ethernet.

..... patric


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## gkeep (Feb 2, 2019)

This is great! Thanks for the replies and excellent suggestions. It looks like the Stormer with side screws is a good match and very risque with those wiggly embossed pollywogs chasing the egg. Or is that a stylized Haley's comet? What was that guy drinking or thinking about when he designed that badge?  Maybe the design is from 1910 and it is a comet to honor Mark Twain who said, "I came in with Halley's comet in 1835. It is coming again next year, and I expect to go out with it. It will be the greatest disappointment of my life if I don't go out with Halley's comet. The Almighty has said, no doubt: 'Now here are these two unaccountable freaks; they came in together, they must go out together."[

"These two unacountable freaks" could describe the frame and I just a well. 

Patric, any measurements on the headbadge holes or width of wreath and S? The frame is still at work leaning against my desk and I haven't measured the badge holes yet.


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## hoofhearted (Feb 2, 2019)

gkeep said:


> Patric, any measurements on the headbadge holes or width of wreath and S? The frame is still at work leaning against my desk and I haven't measured the badge holes yet.





Oh .. @gkeep ............ when I began collecting unusual badges
in the mid - 80's ... a wide variety of the STORMER badges found
their way to my lair.

As an aside ... during a year or three of the production of the
STORMER bicycle ... there was even a design mod done to the
badge.  The boy's badge was different than a girl's badge.

Don't mean to say the pollywogs were all pimped-out on the
boy's version ... or the ''egg'' wore the crown of a queen on the
girl's version ... but there was a major design difference.

Must have acquired at least eight different versions of the
STORMER badge ... including Westfield variations,

When my collecting tastes entered the ''exotic'' arena ... my
STORMER badges were sold or given away (along with many
other badges) to other collectors.

Sorry, but am not able to shed any light on any dimensions.

One of the things that really grabbed me about that badge, tho' .....
the very name -- STORMER.

Maybe I heard this ... maybe I'm just makin' it up .... but I swear
the term ''stormer'' ... when applicable to a turn o' the century
bicycle ... was a machine that was ''rebuilt to move quickly''.

Maybe extra weight was shaved by the removal of not so neces-
sary parts ------ plus .. the addition of low, racing bars ... changes
to the gear ratio .... maybe the addition of straight-legged forks ... 
to shorten the wheelbase,  thereby giving rise to quicker steering.  

Whatever could be done to enable the rider to achieve higher speed on city streets.

Like A Bat Out of Hell.

..... patric


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## cyclingday (Feb 2, 2019)

Great stuff!
Artifacts pulled from the scrap heap.
Ghost outlines of what once was.
Knowledgeable collector/historian extraordinaire.
And some plausible explanations of what this fore lorn bicycle may have been.

I LOVE THE CABE!


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## gkeep (Feb 2, 2019)

Life is like a junkyard full of old parts, you never know where the treasure is going to be. It might just be the hunt itself and the people you meet along the way!


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## Archie Sturmer (Feb 2, 2019)

gkeep said:


> The *Elgin *chain ring made me think 20s *Hawthorne *Flyer





gkeep said:


> What was that guy drinking or thinking about



So, Elgin was Sears & Roebuck, and Hawthorne was Montgomery Ward, (different concerns, both of Chicago IL).

The 8-point snowflake was also used by Great Western Manufacturing, after they acquired Reading Standard.
So, just another connection to Reading PA.  [Maybe an odd Westfield double-D crankset was replaced].

We have seen Westfield lists showing an "L" prefix may indicate 1920, (looks just about right), or 1933.

Shapleigh also sold Westfield-built bikes at one time.
https://thecabe.com/forum/media/1927-Stutz-hall-Supply-co-minneapoliS-minn-head-badge-made-by-pope-weStfield.5328/


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## gkeep (Feb 4, 2019)

Archie Sturmer, you may have also pegged it.
"The 8-point snowflake was also used by Great Western Manufacturing, after they acquired Reading Standard.
So, just another connection to Reading PA.  [Maybe an odd Westfield double-D crankset was replaced].

We have seen Westfield lists showing an "L" prefix may indicate 1920, (looks just about right), or 1933."



Back in the office and had a chance to look closer at the serial number. I cleaned off some tar and the first letter is without doubt an 'I' So if an L Westfield was 1920 would an I be for 1917 counting back 4 years in the alphabet? (wish I could figure out how to use the quote function correctly, I need to ask one of the coworkers under 35, sheesh.)


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## gkeep (Feb 6, 2019)

Update on the Westfield Motobike frame. Patric and Archie Sturmer found two badges that fit the shadow. Interesting that the Stutz badge has a similar design to the Stormer but the detail of three lines sweeping to a dot/ball look much less like a fertility symbol on the Stutz, but it is a design for a Minnesota company so maybe they toned it down a bit?...
The white/cream paint behind it on this bike matches whats still on my frame.





The frame was originally red, that Indian red that's on so many motorbikes. I pulled out the crank and took the forks apart yesterday, plenty of red paint flakes and residual red paint inside the tubes. So far there seems to be almost nothing of the red left on the frame, just heavy black house paint.

More cleaning revealed that the serial number may start with F or E. If "L" was 1920 for Westfield frames and they skipped "I" ( couple references to this on other CABE posts) that would put this frame at 1914 or 1915? 



Can anyone confirm this fork/truss setup was used by Westfield in the teens era?




The cone was installed upside down when I took it apart, but I guess it worked and gave the caged bearings a hard surface to roll on.
And a shot of the crank for good measure .


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## TR6SC (Feb 6, 2019)

Gary, such a lovely bike. Are you going to get it up and running? And if so, are there rules and regulations that you need to follow in regards to vintage/modern?
I want to know specifically about the stand to be used.


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## gkeep (Feb 6, 2019)

So many questions master. I have to say I've been day dreaming about stripping the house paint and if there is nothing original doing a rattle can or just polishing it as is. Maybe patina steel or polished steel "Silver Streak " with white Schwalbe Delta cruisers and modern rims. It would be cool to find some original paint.

And what about the forks, is that old nickel plating under the brush strokes? Maybe try some goof off on a small area in a few minutes for lunch.


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## TR6SC (Feb 6, 2019)

I know a guy that can straighten those truss rods.


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## rusty_apache (Feb 6, 2019)

Cheap generic oven cleaner is great at removing rattle can paint work.


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## dnc1 (Feb 6, 2019)

rusty_apache said:


> Cheap generic oven cleaner is great at removing rattle can paint work.



What are the active ingredients of said 'oven cleaners'? 
Might try to find something similar over here.


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## gkeep (Feb 6, 2019)

typically sodium hydroxide (lye) with butane for propellent.
this frame had oil based housepaint troweled on like bottom paint on a wooden hull.


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## Archie Sturmer (Feb 6, 2019)

The bike has some features that also look later, or perhaps just unchanged, about time of Torrington reorganization, (and super-balloons). 
http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle222 (1934 Columbia Catalog). 
The larger gap between the top tube and the truss bar, make me guess later; I have seen old Westfield bikes with tighter spacing.

Earlier (pre-Torrington?) forks may have had 26 threads per inch; the adjustable cone (pictured), without a cap, looks Snyder (24-tpi only), that was used with a separate sheet-metal dust cover; they work great for parts that require reduced stacking height.  I have seen examples and advertisements of "Pope" headsets, versus the "new-Columbia" headsets.  Some older Westfield headsets may have had 17 x 5/32 ball bearings, and cups with peculiar dimensions (1-1/4"?).  I have seen an early Westfield motobike fork with a duplicate letter stamped under the crown.  Westfield was once proud of its milled bearing cups; milling is expensive enough, such nice curved outer profile even more so.


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## gkeep (Feb 6, 2019)

Great information! I love seeing the old catalogs, packed with the history. I'll have to check the count on those caged bearings. I should borrow my nieghbors thread gauge and check the count. (or just get a ruler ...)






Were these welded truss rods used throughout the motorbike era? The serial numbers look like a TOC font and are so crudely done it leads me to think teens but maybe it was just stamped after a 3 beer lunch at the local tavern.


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## gkeep (Feb 7, 2019)

Wondering again if this frame is a collection of random parts.

Stumbled onto a fork that matches the fork on this Westfield frame. The matching fork is on a bike for sale by LuxLow that is badged as a 1919 Excelsior by Excelsior Manufacturing or Michigan City Indiana. The truss struts, fork blades and truss ends are a good match.  Maybe more than one bike donated scrap parts to this beast?
Maybe its a moto-mongrel bike...

We'll, here todays findings for posterity. Maybe somebody else will be researching a Westfield frame/Elgin Chainring/Excelsior truss fork motobike back shed creation someday and it will help them.









And then there is the question brought up of the fork caged bearings:
"Earlier (pre-Torrington?) forks may have had 26 threads per inch; the adjustable cone (pictured), without a cap, looks Snyder (24-tpi only), that was used with a separate sheet-metal dust cover; they work great for parts that require reduced stacking height.  I have seen examples and advertisements of "Pope" headsets, versus the "new-Columbia" headsets.  Some older Westfield headsets may have had 17 x 5/32 ball bearings, and cups with peculiar dimensions (1-1/4"?)"

Pulled it apart today and the headset has two 20x1/16 (?) cages. I eyeballed the bearings against a steel rule and they seemed a hair larger than 1/16 but that might be my 60 year old peepers. The thread count looks 24 and I think I'm missing the threaded dust cover.


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## Archie Sturmer (Feb 7, 2019)

I was going by my memory, that the number was greater than those found today.  Road bikes may have 30 mm cup with 16 x 5/32” ball bearings; BMX bikes may have 32.5 mm cups with 15 x 3/16” ball bearings.  English bikes may have had smaller ball bearings.
The reason I mentioned the reduced stacking height was to encourage the question why one might be necessary; normally original parts fit well.
And luxlow is a member.


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## gkeep (Feb 8, 2019)

Your right on the money about the parts fitting issue. The cage diameter and size of the bearings work but seem a bit small for the races. I had thought about directly PMing him regarding the bearings cages on the Excelsior he is selling since I have not found any forks like these on any Westfield made bike here.


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## Archie Sturmer (Feb 8, 2019)

gkeep said:


> I had thought about directly PMing him.



PM may be appropriate, as honest sellers have their honest *opinions*; I am a satisfied customer of luxlow.


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## Archie Sturmer (Feb 12, 2019)

gkeep said:


> The cage diameter and size of the bearings work but seem a bit small for the races.



I have seen a Pope headset, where someone had installed a smaller-bearing cage, just because the cage itself would fit (more of a space filler); what *should be* more important are the interfacing parts; (i.e., surfaces that actually touch or bear the load).  Perhaps the "sporting goods" shop that the owner went to in the 1960-70's, was an Arnold-And-Something dealer, who only had AAS-parts to offer, (including limited imported parts from Britain).

Luxlow, a member does sell odd bearings with the right cage outside diameter, but with 3/16" ball bearings (oversize?); those might ride higher (or inward) on the cones and may add about ~1/16" to the stacking height.  Some also advise just using more loose ball bearings, (without cages).


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## gkeep (Feb 15, 2019)

Thanks everyone for all the research help. The score so far, original color was red, Stutz or Stormer head badge on Westfield frame, Snyder forks, snow flake chain ring that shows up on 1920s Hawthorne Trail Blazer motor bikes. 

I won't feel bad now putting random rims, stem and bars on it to make it a rider. 
Gary


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## Brutuskend (Mar 9, 2019)

gkeep said:


> Hi All,
> Never thought this would happen but I rescued another TOC frame today from a scrap metal box. I walked by about 8:30 and the box had a few items in it, came back by about 10:30 and this frame was in the bottom. The metal in this box comes from about 40 tons a day of debris/trash/crap collected by DPW trucks all over San Francisco. About 15 years ago I pulled my 58 Schwinn American from this area.
> View attachment 941586
> 
> ...



NICE SCORE


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## SKPC (Mar 10, 2019)

Great info from @Archie Sturmer  and @hoofhearted.   When these two very knowledgeable members post info, I learn something new from every single post.   The term "stormer"  is very interesting information if proven true.  It could predate "rat" or "hotrod" and may be the way to best describe modified bikes and could be the "1st" to describe these cycles.  Many old bikes, complete or not when found,  seem to have been outfitted with different parts from the era.  This makes them even more difficult to id. as "original".....
Great find @gkeep "Storm" it and ride it!.


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## gkeep (Mar 10, 2019)

Couldn't agree more about all the great information everyone brought to the table! @SKPC your making me think about taking that frame across the bay to Mt. Tam for a memorial cruise down Repack.


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## SKPC (Apr 24, 2019)

hoofhearted said:


> Oh .. @gkeep
> 
> One of the things that really grabbed me about that badge, tho' .....
> the very name -- STORMER.
> ...




@hoofhearted------Was this the word you were thinking of?  See below bell advertisement and the term_"SCORCHER"_





This is from an @filmonger post.


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## hoofhearted (Apr 24, 2019)

SKPC said:


> @hoofhearted------Was this the term you were thinking of?
> See below bell advertisement and the term_"SCORCHER"_



=============================================



@SKPC ....
Indeed it was .... ''Scorcher'' would not come to mind ... only the mental 
images of what that word conjures ... so I sublitooted the word ""Stormer'' ... 
which I also like.

Excellent detective work on your part ... SKPC _*!!*_

From this day forward ... I am going to use those two words interchangabley ..
but not in the same sentence. Would like to think I am the definition of either
of those two words ... they really paint a mental picture ... but the only word
that comes to mind for me .... Slug-Shoe......


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## dnc1 (Apr 24, 2019)

"slug-shoe" is not the mental image that I picture of you Patric!
I was guilty of being a "scorcher" last night and again today and am often referred to as such on V-CC rides.
Here is a link to possibly the first negative description of "scorching" in a written document.....
http://www.guywoolnough.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/CarlisleRO26scorching.jpg
.....by the Chief Constable of the Cumberland and Westmoreland police in 1891.
It seems the "rozzers" never liked a wanton and furious pedaller!
They'll have to catch us first!


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## bricycle (Apr 24, 2019)

my first impression was Hawthorne Flyer, Flyer due to the longer slope the the top of the tank area. Deluxe had a shorter slope I believe... or was it the other way around? Na.


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