# A "Reality Bites" insight into the Bike Hobby and a Newbie's Nightmare



## bobcycles (Jun 17, 2014)

*I was recently contacted by a car collector 100 miles south of me who was referred to me by a collector in Indiana.
The car collector who, after talking to him a while, revealed he was well acquainted with the car restoration / collecting world but new to the bike world.
His goal was to build a Nice, Original but Restored Schwinn Phantom.  He came to me for advice, a couple of small want list items and to shed some light on the market.

So .......let the fun begin.
The Newbie......purchases a 1953 original Phantom Schwinn frame on ebay.....pays a fair retail, gets a real product and then the fun starts.  Newbie decided to PIECE TOGETHER a complete Phantom by buying what he 'reads' on ebay to be NOS and/or nice original parts from that cast of characters, many of us in included that hawk our wares on ebay.

What a revealing and disturbing insight into this hobby his 'experience' was.  He emailed me individual links......One email at a time, literally had 50 emails in a block in my inbox from him, with the sundry list of items he purchased on ebay for the project.  UNBELIEVABLE the amount of money he spent being Top Bidder on this stuff.  Lot by Lot Piece by Piece.

Although much of what he bought was ok, as in at least period correct original parts....yet the list of big ticket items that weren't honestly described was pretty alarming.  We all know the sellers.  He ended up with "NOS" Phantom pedals (repop) for nearly 300 dollars.....
NOS Phantom seat (repop) for nearly 300.00 ......NOS brake lever (repop) 100.00....on and on it went.
In every listing the shady dipsh!ts selling this stuff describe it as original NOS parts 1950s etc.  When they all know damn well it's either anniversary stuff or even MORE recent reproduction junk.

He literally purchased an entire Phantom right down to hardware, nuts and bolts at auction on ebay.  ALMOST bought a "NOS" Tailight for a ridiculous price which of course was a repop.

I urged him to return the items that were misdescribed for full refunds.

What a can of worms.  And we wonder why people don't want to get involved in this hobby.  Coincidentally the gentleman in the midwest that referred him to me for more parts and advice, screwed him on a Repop Phantom saddle as well.

Imagine getting involved with this bike hobby, knowing very little or even nothing about it, and getting thrown to the wolves.
I might have actually pulled him half way out of the wolves den with the heads up on the repop junk he overpayed on etc.

There are new players out there everyday looking to get into this hobby to one degree or another.....maybe not as "off the deep end" as most of us, but the Email List  of WON auctions he forwarded was like a who's who of scumbags on the ebay circuit.   What a scary ocean of sharks to navigate for the unknowing and unsuspecting.  Needless to say the newbie was stunned!  Said sellers like this wouldn't last a day in the auto restoration/parts etc world.  Wow.

I really try to encourage people to get involved with the bike hobby, but man can that be a tough sell sometimes.
*






So i told him to sell everything and buy this NOS Phantom bike complete from me for 9K and be done with it. (a 95' repop) KIDDING!


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## Freqman1 (Jun 17, 2014)

I agree there are more than a few out there willing to make a buck off someone and be less than forthcoming--ok outright lie. That said I place some of this back on the buyer. I've seen this with a lot of my other hobbies as well where a newb comes in, does NO research, and then gets screwed. Before I start collecting anything I usually spend a few hundred dollars on books, scour the internet for hours, and pester the crap out of guys like you Bob so I at least have an educated idea of WTF I'm doing. In fact if all buyers tried to educate themselves a little bit before plunking down those hard earned dollars some of these scumbags would go out of business. Jus my 2c. V/r Shawn


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## island schwinn (Jun 17, 2014)

i encountered quite a few of the "sharks" you mention when trying to find a few phantom parts.one is a high profile seller on here who screwed me on a set of pedals.damn shame people have to be like that,but as long as other people keep buying their crap,it won't end.
sorry your friend had a bad experience.it really is like a punch in the gut.


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## bobcycles (Jun 17, 2014)

*newbie post*

*yeah, it is tough getting involved in new hobbies/pursuits and you do have to do your homework.  But when you buy stuff from supposedly reputable sites like Ebay the items should BE as described.  Also to note, not everything this guy bought was a disaster or a repop.  However some of the more "Choice" pieces were....Repop Phantom peds bring what?  75-100?  Not close to 300.   etc etc.   Also-- No fault to Indiana collectors and maybe I shouldn't have mentioned a state, but that was where a purchase came from as well as his referral to me.  I hope the sellers are straight up enough about refunding for any misleadingly worded auctions or descriptions.   We need to encourage people to join the bike hobby, not scare em away.*


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## 37fleetwood (Jun 17, 2014)

the problem is people in the hobby defend these guys!


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## Jeff54 (Jun 17, 2014)

bobcycles said:


> *I was recently contacted by a car collector 100 miles south of me who was referred to me by a collector in Indiana.
> !*



*

Pretty simple solution. First off news break: Collectible cars have repop parts too!, Much longer than bikes. Back in the 1970's the repops were south American and Mexican for auto Restoration.. rubber curled and cracked, inferior metal rusting, the whole gambit. The cheap countries just change around but it's always the same. NOS repop buyer beware. 

If the guy is a collector's Restoration person and buys junk like that. No worries, just don't buy the junk cars he's doing.. And if he's just a collector and doesn't know the difference don't be buying his cars. 

I know a guy in the marble collectin Hobie, an area which I posses a great deal of experteze, but he  spends tons of money and seriously doesn't have a clue too. What's worse, you can't educate the fellow no matter what ya say.  There's so many fakes, or "art" reproductions. Collecting toy antique marbles is of the most difficult hobbies there is. the attention to detail, unbelievable amount of information required to absorb just for a tiny 5/8" peice of glass. Glass which, BTW, is made the same way for the past 3,000 years.  And the fakes, reproductions cut into the real collector's pockets, burns newer collectors, which end up discouraging them too.. the guy has more junk than you can shake a stick at. However, if lucky might have a few, maybe, lol. 

That's why collector's supposed to have one single guideline: Buy what you like, do it for your passion, otherwise don't expect to profit as, one mans treasure is another man's trash. 


Seriously! 

Or long live the 'For Sale' pitch: "Invested 10 billion, have been offered a ka-jillion but only asking 10 bucks, my loss your gain." .

 The bottom line is this, any collector who's worth a bean in all hobies or collectibles ought to know because, slack, fakes, reproduction, repops, knock offs are in them all. . . 

And for every opertunity there is for 'collectors', or lets say those who collect solely to make a buck, they're going to resell using every pitch they can get by with. 

As the current owners of Schwinn knew while pressing those repop fenders, sprockets, handlebars, Tanks Etc.  even the reissued black phantom frames, the  metal is not the quality of schwinn in the 1950's .  P.T. Barnum lives.*


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## bulldog1935 (Jun 17, 2014)

kinda reminds me of a guy posting on another forum about buying a Raleigh International frame and building piece-by-piece it into a modern utility bike - hiring a bike shop to do all the work.  
By the time he was done, he could have bought a really nice new bike.  

I bought my go-fast Moser frame on ebay for a steal, used some parts around, bought a few NOS less than state-of-the-art and just newer than venerable Campy (all auction snipes, no BIN).  Great deal on new Chorus brakes taken off a floor bike to have them "upgraded" with newer skeleton brakes.  Given a set of tubie wheels.  I had it rolling for $650, and by the time I got a good set of clincher wheels, I had $1000 into it and am delighted with the result.  

With true vintage Schwinn, I'm sure too many nice bikes are getting parted out on ebay.

In the end, the "what's it worth" question is answered with, it's worth to you what you're willing to sell it for, and it's worth to somebody else what they're willing to pay for it.


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## Nickinator (Jun 17, 2014)

Freqman1 said:


> ...That said I place some of this back on the buyer. I've seen this with a lot of my other hobbies as well where a newb comes in, does NO research, and then gets screwed... V/r Shawn




Couldn't agree more. Anytime you are entering a new area of interest and plan to purchase something expensive it behooves you to take some time and do your research. I would guess if he'd asked a serious collector(s) he'd find out that buying a bike piece by piece was a bad idea.

Darcie


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 17, 2014)

The thing is...where is the reference material a newbie to the hobby is going to utilize?
I have been in the hobby for a bit and wouldn't know repop phantom pedals from the real deal except by checking myself with the adage if it looks to good to be true, then it probably isn't.
The things I do know is from experience and trial and error over time.
All that said, dishonest sellers suck.
Chris


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## bobcycles (Jun 17, 2014)

*Newbie*

Just a side note, Indiana has a very large population of fanastic people in the bike hobby, Ricky, Sam, Tammy ...the list goes on. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned a 'state' when describing the situation this newbie experienced with one of the repop hawkers.  Apologies if I offended anyone out there in Indy.  




bobcycles said:


> *I was recently contacted by a car collector 100 miles south of me who was referred to me by a collector in Indiana.
> The car collector who, after talking to him a while, revealed he was well acquainted with the car restoration / collecting world but new to the bike world.
> His goal was to build a Nice, Original but Restored Schwinn Phantom.  He came to me for advice, a couple of small want list items and to shed some light on the market.
> 
> ...


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## Wheeled Relics (Jun 17, 2014)

*truth is...*

You don't always get what you pay for just because you pay for it. Do your homework or you'll be sure to pay for it!


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## slick (Jun 17, 2014)

Lets get to the two real answers to this right now. One, the guys in the hobby NEED to stop parting out bikes. Two, to the newbie, buy a complete original paint bike ( hopefully) and do all your research as stated above before hand. All of us have been burnt on that first initial bike you see, fall in love with on sight, and GOTTA HAVE NOW. That's the problem and we have all done it. Thread ended. Simple solution.


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## bike (Jun 17, 2014)

*As Sy used to say*

a better educated consumer is my best customer.


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## rlhender (Jun 18, 2014)

bobcycles said:


> Just a side note, Indiana has a very large population of fanastic people in the bike hobby, Ricky, Sam, Tammy ...the list goes on. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned a 'state' when describing the situation this newbie experienced with one of the repop hawkers.  Apologies if I offended anyone out there in Indy.





Wow.... a shout out from the legend Bob U..Thanks for clearing my name. Well for those who don't know the difference here are a couple pics, the first pic is the real deal. Notice the two pc end caps on the repops, also noticed the repops have teeth made into the end caps to bite into blocks and most of the originals that I have seen have a flat notch in the end of the shaft for a screwdriver.. But I'm still a newbie....lol

Rick


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## stoney (Jun 18, 2014)

scrubbinrims said:


> The thing is...where is the reference material a newbie to the hobby is going to utilize?
> I have been in the hobby for a bit and wouldn't know repop phantom pedals from the real deal except by checking myself with the adage if it looks to good to be true, then it probably isn't.
> The things I do know is from experience and trial and error over time.
> All that said, dishonest sellers suck.
> Chris




I agree Chris, where is the reference material? A couple of months ago I tried to start a new thread. I asked if members could post pictures of repro parts and original parts they have or know about, show and describe the differences. Didn't matter if parts were pedals, handle bars, seat, rack whatever. I saw nothing posted. I thought it would be a good learning tool for a lot of members new and current. It was like no one wanted to share or gave a poop. I know there are people out there with knowledge and the items. I also agree it falls somewhat on the buyers back also. My thoughts, I don't know everything about anything.


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## SirMike1983 (Jun 18, 2014)

I reckon that Ebay bike sales and golf score cards run about the same overall rate of honest to dishonest.


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## Oldnut (Jun 18, 2014)

20 years ago the stingray-krate craze was very strong.i saw many newbies burnt hard by the snakes bad repaints,bad seats repop junk and just plain lying .it got to the to the point they gave there stuff away and left the hobby.i de-fanged some of the snakes and always tried to help the newbies.but this for fun not profit. This side of the hobby seems more knowledgeable and better prepared.and I hope less bs.


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## Sped Man (Jun 18, 2014)

Sometime the only way some people learn is the hard way. Hopefully this will make him a better more informed buyer. 

              We have sharks swimming in our pool right now. They aren't CABE members they are sharks that keep their eyes on the want to buy section of our forum. When they see an email associated with the wanted listing they immediately contact the CABE member to let them know that they have that part. They are willing to sell it for a fair price but they don't have a Paypal account. They want you to pay them via money gram. Once paid the item is never shipped. Those sharks worry me more.


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## bulldog1935 (Jun 18, 2014)

that's easy, tell them you will only pay by paypal.  
I'm involved in high dollar fly reels - I repair, buy, sell, collect.  
Many of the boards have buying guidelines - here's a good one.  
http://fiberglassflyrodders.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=44120 
They'e not exactly rules to be enforced, but to be followed by anyone with a clue.  
They also don't let random outsiders post classified listings - you have to establish yourself by contribution to the community.  
Another clue is look at the number posts made by the potential seller - as much as possible, keep it in the club.  
That said, sometimes the rare part you need does come through "outside" pm contact.  
Use your judgment, but me, I would only pay by paypal.  Paypal makes sure the buyer is happy, and the buyer is always right in a dispute.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jun 18, 2014)

I've seen these being pawned off as original prewar tanks...granted they do have the dual bottom bar tangs but notice it only has one tab on each side at front that is bent-in whereas an og prewar only tank will have two on each half.. Also notice clips instead of tapped holes...I borrowed this pic from a tank that sold on ratrod bikes. .. seller was not trying to get over on anyone so I'm just using it as a reference. .


Then you have the memory lane ones which are easy to tell... The embossing is not that great. . Have a slight knurl to them 
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jun 18, 2014)

stoney said:


> I agree Chris, where is the reference material? A couple of months ago I tried to start a new thread. I asked if members could post pictures of repro parts and original parts they have or know about, show and describe the differences. Didn't matter if parts were pedals, handle bars, seat, rack whatever. I saw nothing posted. I thought it would be a good learning tool for a lot of members new and current. It was like no one wanted to share or gave a poop. I know there are people out there with knowledge and the items. I also agree it falls somewhat on the buyers back also. My thoughts, I don't know everything about anything.



See above ... I also know of repop 6 hole postwar racks..  if I remember right. .. The reflector housing is longer on the fake ones

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Jeff54 (Jun 18, 2014)

bobcycles said:


> There are new players out there everyday looking to get into this hobby to one degree or another.....maybe not as "off the deep end" as most of us, but the Email List  of WON auctions he forwarded was like a who's who of scumbags on the ebay circuit.   What a scary ocean of sharks to navigate for the unknowing and unsuspecting.  Needless to say the newbie was stunned!  Said sellers like this wouldn't last a day in the auto restoration/parts etc world.  Wow.
> 
> I really try to encourage people to get involved with the bike hobby, but man can that be a tough sell sometimes.
> [/B][/FONT][/SIZE]
> ...


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## stoney (Jun 18, 2014)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> See above ... I also know of repop 6 hole postwar racks..  if I remember right. .. The reflector housing is longer on the fake ones
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk




Thank you for your 2 last posts and taking the time to teach. I got into the hobby about 30 years ago and there was a lot to learn. I studied and read and talked to other collectors for knowledge. I took about a 12 year rest from this hobby and last year just got back into it. There has been many developments with repro parts in my absence. None of know everything, I just feel it is good to teach the older collectors and the new to keep these bikes intact as much as possible with originality. Sometimes repro parts are needed which is all well and fine as long it is communicated between buyer and seller. The price can be the moon if that's what the parties agree on. Thanks again.


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## OldRider (Jun 18, 2014)

A few months ago at a  local flea market I called a shady dealer out on his method of business, more then a little upset he was. I love advertising, especially tobacco tins, Pepsi/Coke, gas /oil signs etc. This dude was blatantly passing off his repop signs as the real deal, folks were stopping at his table and putting out good money for what I knew was phoney. I asked him what in the hell he thought he was doing...he told me to mind my own business. I raised my voice a few decibals so others could hear what was going on. Suddenly business was not as brisk for him. Maybe I did the wrong thing taking his business away but in my own mind I felt better.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jun 18, 2014)

OldRider said:


> A few months ago at a  local flea market I called a shady dealer out on his method of business, more then a little upset he was. I love advertising, especially tobacco tins, Pepsi/Coke, gas /oil signs etc. This dude was blatantly passing off his repop signs as the real deal, folks were stopping at his table and putting out good money for what I knew was phoney. I asked him what in the hell he thought he was doing...he told me to mind my own business. I raised my voice a few decibals so others could hear what was going on. Suddenly business was not as brisk for him. Maybe I did the wrong thing taking his business away but in my own mind I felt better.



Nope   you did the right thing...I'd have loved to be there.... screw thief's liars n cheats. .. dirty sob... flea market fukrs

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Nickinator (Jun 18, 2014)

Good on ya for calling him out! We would have done the same thing...detest people like that! 

Darcie


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## OldRider (Jun 18, 2014)

Thanks guys! When I turned his so called vintage signs over to the back side I could easily feel where he had neatly scraped off the barcode sticker, everyone should have spotted that but some folks are too trusting.


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## militarymonark (Jun 19, 2014)

The one repop item besides johns stuff, that I like is the repop 9 hole racks. I purchased one off ebay knowing it was repop but it wasn't at all bad. I actually prefered it over the original. Fit just the same and seems a bit stronger.


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## bulldog1935 (Jun 19, 2014)

OldRider said:


> A few months ago at a  local flea market I called a shady dealer out on his method of business, more then a little upset he was. I love advertising, especially tobacco tins, Pepsi/Coke, gas /oil signs etc. This dude was blatantly passing off his repop signs as the real deal, folks were stopping at his table and putting out good money for what I knew was phoney. I asked him what in the hell he thought he was doing...he told me to mind my own business. I raised my voice a few decibals so others could hear what was going on. Suddenly business was not as brisk for him. Maybe I did the wrong thing taking his business away but in my own mind I felt better.




you want to do better than that, pull the buyers aside and inform them quietly, then call the police before you out him.  A handful of fraud complaints will put him out of this business.


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## mike j (Jun 19, 2014)

A lot of valid points have been brought up in this discussion, but from my limited knowledge of this hobby, I don't think that there is any way that a Schwinn Phantom could be pieced together for any where's near what you could buy one whole for. Just my 1 &1/2 cents.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 19, 2014)

mike j said:


> A lot of valid points have been brought up in this discussion, but from my limited knowledge of this hobby, I don't think that there is any way that a Schwinn Phantom could be pieced together for any where's near what you could buy one whole for. Just my 1 &1/2 cents.




Just about any bike for that matter. I see people buy a Robin frame or a Bluebird basket case and by the time they finish--if they can find the parts they would have been a lot better off just biting the bullet in the first place. I don't understand the Phantom thing either when there are way too many of them around to have to piece one together. V/r Shawn


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## stoney (Jun 19, 2014)

I think many people (especially new collectors) try to piece things together because they may not have the BIG $ it takes to buy some of these great bikes complete. I did it myself way back. You start with half a bike and figure, well I'll just find the pieces. You don't know that the remaining pieces needed is 2-3 times more than you paid for what you already have. At that it's do I dump it or finish the project. It's too bad this happens, sometimes they are not being screwed by overpriced repro parts, it may be also that the original parts they need are just too expensive. For me anything I have ever collected has always been a hobby. The bikes that I had way too much money in was because i really loved the bikes. It's too bad bikes and many other things have gotten way beyond what most people can do money wise. It would be nice to have things more reasonable and be able to have a larger base of collectors in any field of collecting.


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## MOTOmike (Jun 19, 2014)

Hello all,

If I buy any vintage bike parts on ebay, and I do not buy that much, I almost always have a couple questions for the seller.  If the seller does not reply….. then I pass on the item.  If the item I "win" is not described correctly, after I receive and inspect the item, I have no problem sending it back for a refund…… even if the seller states "No Returns", I still try to work something out.  If the seller still says "no"…..which has only happened once….. I left honest, negative feedback.  In this case, the seller, later that day contacted me to institute a refund and the issue was resolved.

If I sell something on ebay or the CABE, and I don't sell that much, I go out of my way to honestly describe the item so there are no "surprises" for the buyer, and I expect the same from other sellers.

If you get something from ebay, and it is not as described……. return it for a refund.  Sure it is sometimes a hassle.  But to me it is worth it and sends a message to the seller.

OK….. I'm done ranting.  Have a good day!

Mike


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## stoney (Jun 19, 2014)

For me another good rule to follow when inquiring about an it is-----You email with a question looking for more info that takes a answer more detailed on the item and you get an answer back like----- A quick Yes or Not sure or Looks good------any other very short quick and seemingly not caring don't give a crap answer. Not even a thanks, or thanks for your interest, hope this helps etc. When that happens I just call it quits right there, no matter what it is of interest to me. Maybe I have always tried to be of REAL help when selling anything, either on the internet or in person.


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 19, 2014)

Recently, I purchased an entire bike just to get the rack and by the time the remainder is dealt, the rack will have cost substantially less than if I were to have bought it al la carte.
Very rarely will I step up on a solo part unless it is rare and unlikely will come as a bundle down the line.
A bit of topic, but in this way, the chances are greater the part is original if the rest of the article is consistent.
Chris


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## slick (Jun 19, 2014)

"Hey Wally."   "Ya. Beav?"   "Why did Eddie part that bike out?" "Well Beav, he didn't listen to what dad always says. Step up to the plate and always buy complete bikes because buying a bike needing parts is a newbie move. Tearing another one apart for a piece or two will do a ripple effect to the time space continium and will cause catastrophic side effects that will distort history forever!" "Gee Wally, that's heavy stuff. Eddie really doesn't care about the future does he?"   "No Beav, he doesn't.  Now let's go down to the pond and catch craw dads."   "Ok Wally."


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 19, 2014)

slick said:


> Parted out for a rack?  Say it isn't so!!!!!!! Jeez.
> Case in point.............




The bike in question has its original paint long gone.
There is no travesty as it is a restoration project and will be much better off afterwards than its current state.

I'm really not the guy you should be pickin' a fight with (again) on the subject.

You have purchased parts from me several times and its the guys that buy bicycle parts that keep the wheels moving and are as responsible.

Chris


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## Wheeled Relics (Jun 19, 2014)

*I did it... bought parts*

Before I hand over my money and after carbon dating for NOS fraud and cross referencing for re-pop hear say, I find that hazing sellers with a very long questionnaire to make sure there were no complete one of a kine bikes harmed while supplying me with the real McCoy really whips the bicycle spirit into a buying and selling frenzy...


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## 37fleetwood (Jun 19, 2014)

it's been my experience that the guys who make a business/semi-business of selling parts are generally a shady lot. I've been taken by quite a few of them that are supposedly reputable names in the hobby.
you get the hobby full of the people you tolerate. stop tolerating these guys and they'll move on to somewhere else where they can make their money ripping off others, they're gonna do it anyway, it's in their nature.
or to put it another way, keep on buying from these guys, we all know you're going to, just stop griping when you get ripped off! as for newbies, I suppose it's part of the price of admission, the hobby protects these guys and will hear no evil spoken of them.


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## slick (Jun 19, 2014)

scrubbinrims said:


> The bike in question has its original paint long gone.
> There is no travesty as it is a restoration project and will be much better off afterwards than its current state.
> 
> I'm really not the guy you should be pickin' a fight with (again) on the subject.
> ...






If you mean carcasses of girls bikes you already parted?  Yes im guilty. Sorry. What was I thinking wanting crummy girls bikes for?  Scrap tubing? I do need fence posts..........


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## Bri-In-RI (Jun 19, 2014)

37fleetwood said:


> it's been my experience that the guys who make a business/semi-business of selling parts are generally a shady lot. I've been taken by quite a few of them that are supposedly reputable names in the hobby.
> you get the hobby full of the people you tolerate. stop tolerating these guys and they'll move on to somewhere else where they can make their money ripping off others, they're gonna do it anyway, it's in their nature.
> or to put it another way, keep on buying from these guys, we all know you're going to, just stop griping when you get ripped off! as for newbies, I suppose it's part of the price of admission, the hobby protects these guys and will hear no evil spoken of them.




As someone that makes a semi-business out of selling bikes/parts I have a hard time understanding why someone would risk further sales by being shady and misrepresenting their items but surprisingly I see it often . I also agree that it is crazy that many people in this hobby protect the shady sellers by keeping there mouths shut when they see them trying to take advantage of newbies interested in buying there overpriced junk. Ive seen people go so far as defending the junk peddlers right to misrepresent their items by putting all the fault on a buyer not doing enough homework before purchasing said junk.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jun 19, 2014)

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
I've saved a few from being completely parted. ..had to buy some parts to complete. .. but saved nonetheless


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## SirMike1983 (Jun 19, 2014)

I see the people who pass the reproduction parts off as original as the closest kin we have to counterfeiters. They may not make the parts themselves, as a counterfeiter would, but virtually everything else is the same: the passing of the illegitimate part as genuine, the fleecing of the person who takes the part in transaction, and then final victim in the chain who attempts to sell the part or uses the part but is informed that he has been had. There should be no tolerance in the hobby for people willfully doing that.

The biggest issue I have had is people who sell an item with so-so pictures, a so-so description, but then you get the item and it has a material flaw. This is the more common one among vintage items. The worst I have had was a bike where several "B grade" pictures were taken and a modest description given. All the pictures looked "ok" and were not seemingly bad at representing the item, but they weren't first rate either. The bicycle arrived with a large kink in the non-drive chain stay, a material flaw not disclosed in the description and not revealed by the pictures, even though there were several pictures. The group of shots happened to mask the flaw the way they were taken through a combination of angle and position. This was no small kink either. I believe a car drove into this bicycle in a garage at some point or another.


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## bulldog1935 (Jun 20, 2014)

sorry, I didn't mean to imply that parting out bikes was generically evil.  
Buying a bike to get a tough part you need on a better bike and then parting out the rest of the part bike is completely understandable.


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## 2jakes (Jun 20, 2014)

I just finished reading this thread & all the comments made.
 While I may not agree with every detail...

I believe all newbies & not so new should be required to read this Thread.

Thanks to all the members who contributed on this issue.

jake


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## PCHiggin (Jun 20, 2014)

"His goal was to build a Nice, Original but Restored Schwinn Phantom".

That would be known as a"correct restoration" An original bike  by definition WOULD NOT BE RESTORED. I might be picking but I read stuff like this all the time,drives me nuts! lol The most common being "MINT" or "100% original,new paint,chrome.etc" lol, its even more original than when new lol


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## 2jakes (Jun 20, 2014)

PCHiggin said:


> "His goal was to build a Nice, Original but Restored Schwinn Phantom".
> 
> That would be known as a"correct restoration" An original bike  by definition WOULD NOT BE RESTORED. I might be picking but I read stuff like this all the time,drives me nuts! lol The most common being "MINT" or "100% original,new paint,chrome.etc" lol, its even more original than when new lol




What If I get on a Delorean with a flux capacitor...& go back to the 1950s

& bring this back ?





unopened box from the Chicago factory ...


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## Freqman1 (Jun 20, 2014)

2jakes said:


> What If I get on a Delorean with a flux capacitor...& go back to the 1950s
> 
> & bring this back ?
> 
> ...




Is that the Duncan yo-yo bike? V/r Shawn


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## 2jakes (Jun 20, 2014)

Freqman1 said:


> Is that the Duncan yo-yo bike? V/r Shawn




Wow...just by looking at the box...

You certainly know your bikes...

I'm really impressed !


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## bike (Jun 20, 2014)

*Amen*



Jeff54 said:


> ....................
> That's why collector's supposed to have one single guideline: Buy what you like, do it for your passion, otherwise don't expect to profit as, one mans treasure is another man's trash.
> ....................




If I can't live with it or just throw it in the trash I do not buy it.

I bought a repro headlight said to be nos- when I complained I was told nos MEANS repro- but in hindsight totally my fault for pulling the trigger too fast.

Will fill a hole on a junker and be aok

All that said if it is clearly intentional fraud.... anything goes.

Oh and "F PAYPAL" That is a devil I must dance with but if I can sit one out I certainly do.


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## catfish (Jun 20, 2014)

bike said:


> If I can't live with it or just throw it in the trash I do not buy it.
> 
> I bought a repro headlight said to be nos- when I complained I was told nos MEANS repro- but in hindsight totally my fault for pulling the trigger too fast.
> 
> All that said if it is clearly intentional fraud.... anything goes.




When ever I see a "Buy it now" that looks to good to be true.... I have to remember that if it looks to good to be true, it is. Sometimes I'm tempted, but I wait. And look at the seller, and their feedback. And past auctions. Maybe I might miss out on a great deal. but at least I don't get burned. Or at least not as often.... Buy what you like.


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## Adamtinkerer (Jun 20, 2014)

Kudos to Bob and Tim for being straight shooters on ebay! Whenever I saw one of their listings, I knew it'd be as described, and I was fortunate enough to win a few goodies from them in years past.


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## dubsey55 (Jun 20, 2014)

*Reality doesnt have to bite*

stoney and scrubbinrims said it perfectly. I try to use the CABE for research, but of course, its not my only source.  Have asked questions regarding correctness of this or that on bikes posted by members here, never got a single reply!   Saw a rare bike posted here recently stripped of  OG paint beacuse the owner decided to research the bike after he did a bunch of mods.  To me, any hobby is about doing the needed research, then searching out the correct bits to build your project. Takes awhile but thats half the fun , right?  what?   If the Phantom builder approached his bicyle project the same way he did his cars, he would of had less problems. We Used to search the trade mags, Hemmings, Walnecks, etc, talk to other collectors via phone and/or letter. Went to the shows and swaps, Hershey, Carlisle, etc, talked to the vendors and builders.  Mayby the interweb has made it "too easy"!  We have all bought the "wrong" part!  its part of the learning process! You will be pepared when the right one comes along, and it will, eventually!  Newbies  doing their research, plus more experienced collectors  sharing their knowledge=  a vibrant, growing, and fun hobby (re)building quality vintage machines with intrinstic value for all to enjoy,  future generations included  OK, off the soapbox!


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## slick (Jun 20, 2014)

I think everyone is missing the key point. Parts wouldn't have to be bought if the bike wasn't parted out in the first place. Whether it was stripped in the 60's or yesterday. So it will be a never ending cycle unfortunately. We could stop the cycle or keep it going.


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## PCHiggin (Jun 21, 2014)

2jakes said:


> What If I get on a Delorean with a flux capacitor...& go back to the 1950s
> 
> & bring this back ?
> 
> ...




I'll want it


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## joel.romeo.79 (Aug 20, 2014)

slick said:


> "Hey Wally."   "Ya. Beav?"   "Why did Eddie part that bike out?" "Well Beav, he didn't listen to what dad always says. Step up to the plate and always buy complete bikes because buying a bike needing parts is a newbie move. Tearing another one apart for a piece or two will do a ripple effect to the time space continium and will cause catastrophic side effects that will distort history forever!" "Gee Wally, that's heavy stuff. Eddie really doesn't care about the future does he?"   "No Beav, he doesn't.  Now let's go down to the pond and catch craw dads."   "Ok Wally."




I hit estate sales here on Thursday and I always see the tank, badge, basket, rack, lamp etc. snatchers. One of them told me just toss them over the fence she won't care. I saw him again at another estate sale eyeballing this little Schwinn



I wanted to drop the piano on him but it was a little outside of my budget. I swear if I am not there early I miss the complete bike. I bid on two that I couldn't take with me and when I came back for them the tanks were gone. I bought it any way but damn it's just a poor little middleweight why the hell do people have to do that.



The little blue Fleetwing. Another jerk antique "dealer" told me he "just pulls the head badges off of stuff anyways because they are worth more than the bike most times" 
Done ranting



Have you seen my Colson rear steer tandem yet. Yep. This world is full of complete blithering idiots but sometimes they are good for a laugh. 


It wasn't me I swear.


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