# CECIL WALKER 1939 - "S T A Y E R"



## corbettclassics (Aug 10, 2017)

Here's my old 1939 Cecil Walker Stayer bike which was the "only Stayer" bike that Walker ever built.  His own personal bike that I found out of Australia many yrs ago.  He sold it in 1956 to a couple of guys who assembled it and tried to do some high speed laps on the Velodrome there.  By the 3rd lap and top speed they had some wheel wobble and abandoned their attempt.  The bike sat ever since until it came to my collection. Super RARE!!!


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## Andrew Gorman (Aug 10, 2017)

A gorgeous machine!  I have never seen that 531 decal before.


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## dnc1 (Aug 12, 2017)

Andrew Gorman said:


> A gorgeous machine!  I have never seen that 531 decal before.



Ditto!!!
That's one rare transfer.
Beautiful!


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## Deejay (Nov 19, 2017)

The wheel wobble they experienced could have been eliminated by turning the fork 180 degrees.


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## corbettclassics (Nov 19, 2017)

Deejay said:


> The wheel wobble they experienced could have been eliminated by turning the fork 180 degrees.



Really! Please explain Pace Following to us and the advantages and disadvantages of following the pacer and why the forks are reversed.


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## TR6SC (Nov 19, 2017)

corbettclassics said:


> Really! Please explain Pace Following to us and the advantages and disadvantages of following the pacer and why the forks are reversed.



I'm missing something here. Am I to believe the forks are reversed on purpose? Standard theory states the higher the speed, the more trail is wanted for stabile steering characteristics. Can an expert chime in here?


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## kccomet (Nov 19, 2017)

corbettclassics said:


> Really! Please explain Pace Following to us and the advantages and disadvantages of following the pacer and why the forks are reversed.



easy bill


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## corbettclassics (Nov 19, 2017)

I guess all the professionals that have been doing this for 100 yrs don’t know what their doing..!!!

And yes, the forks are reversed on purpose guys.


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## bikemonkey (Nov 20, 2017)

corbettclassics said:


> Here's my old 1939 Cecil Walker Stayer bike which was the "only Stayer" bike that Walker ever built.  His own personal bike that I found out of Australia many yrs ago.  He sold it in 1956 to a couple of guys who assembled it and tried to do some high speed laps on the Velodrome there.  By the 3rd lap and top speed they had some wheel wobble and abandoned their attempt.  The bike sat ever since until it came to my collection. Super RARE!!!
> 
> View attachment 658222
> 
> ...



That's a real beauty! - plz flip fork.


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## bulldog1935 (Nov 20, 2017)

TR6SC said:


> I'm missing something here. Am I to believe the forks are reversed on purpose? Standard theory states the higher the speed, the more trail is wanted for stabile steering characteristics. Can an expert chime in here?



not me, but I was told by a professed trail expert that reversed forks make the bike steering total on-center, as in you have to really horse it to turn.


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## corbettclassics (Nov 20, 2017)

bikemonkey said:


> That's a real beauty! - plz flip fork.




Plz flip fork..!!!!  

Could you imagine this kid rolling up on you while you're riding your Elgin Bluebird or Bowden Spacelander and him saying - "Pls put some apes on that thing..!!!" ( but what does he know! )


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## dnc1 (Nov 20, 2017)

The reversed fork allows the rider to draft closer to the pacing machine, in effect, reducing the drag coefficient/increasing aerodynamic efficiency by placing the rider in less turbulent air.
On @corbettclassics fabulous example above you will also note the seat nose support which allows the rider to get as far forward as possible and as much of his body within that 'cleaner' air, without breaking the saddle.
 You'd think that a more 'lo-pro' (ie. a sloping top tube) approach would be sensible; this is true, but inappropriate in paced racing as you are already wind cheating behind the pacer.
The more upright stance stems from the necessity to ensure the riders breathing efficiency over long distance events. Therefore reversing the forks and using a smaller (typically 24 inch) front wheel and a fairly tall headtube allows the rider to adopt a relatively comfortable stance and enjoy the benefits of slipstreaming.
Just search for images of stayers online, they almost all follow this format for these reasons.


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## bulldog1935 (Nov 20, 2017)

Francesco Moser's hour-record bike - it's still fairly high-trail, though lower trail than reversed forks would give it.




ps - my local bike shop has one of these on the wall above the service desk.


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## corbettclassics (Nov 20, 2017)

bulldog1935 said:


> Francesco Moser's hour-record bike - it's still fairly high-trail, though lower trail than reversed forks would give it.
> View attachment 712308



That’s a completely different bike than a Stayer bike. It’s a very cool machine though! Didn’t that bike wind up being banned or something?


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## bulldog1935 (Nov 20, 2017)

yes, it was a one-hour-distance record bike (51.151 km), which UCI let stand for 14 years before their grief over Merckx record loss caused them to write new rules (the Lugano Charter) and disqualify Moser's record.

Though this is what they're riding now - you tell me...


 

and this bike took the record just 2 years after Moser was disqualified


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## corbettclassics (Nov 20, 2017)

I think I have a large poster of it rolled up somewhere. I know I have some old French and U.K. magazines with articles on it. What a cool piece of machinery! He had a couple of these bikes that were similar.


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## corbettclassics (Nov 20, 2017)

One of my favorite bikes was Obree’s washing machine bike. Boardman’s was cool too but not like Obree’s bike.


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## dnc1 (Nov 20, 2017)

This one?

 
Interesting article on Boardman's Lotus and the Lotus bikes in general in Cycling Weekly just a few weeks ago.
I have to agree with you @corbettclassics on Mr. Obree's machine.


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## corbettclassics (Nov 20, 2017)

Not the one where his arms are stretched out. The one where his arms are tucked in to his chest. I have pics and his book etc but not home to attach photos right now.


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## bulldog1935 (Nov 20, 2017)

must be this one - kinda looks like a grownup on a bmx


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## corbettclassics (Nov 20, 2017)

Yeah, that’s the one. He made it out of some washing machine parts. That’s a bike I always wanted in my collection. I would even take a replica if it was spot on!


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## dnc1 (Nov 20, 2017)

corbettclassics said:


> Yeah, that’s the one. He made it out of some washing machine parts. That’s a bike I always wanted in my collection. I would even take a replica if it was spot on!



Who wouldn't!


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## bulldog1935 (Nov 21, 2017)

a point to add about trail or caster.
The reversed fork is the same caster as the front wheels on a shopping cart - very high trail.
Low trail on bikes is the reason they turn when we lean, instead of just fall over.

Low-trail geometry on a touring bike makes the bike easier to handle with a front load, especially at low speed.





The somewhat higher-trail geometry on a road bike makes it want to spin to lock standing still with a front load, though very stable with rolling inertia


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## dnc1 (Mar 10, 2018)

bulldog1935 said:


> must be this one - kinda looks like a grownup on a bmx
> View attachment 712361



"Cycling Weekly" over here has tested Graeme Obree in a wind tunnel this week. He was riding 'old faithfull' in both its 'tuck' & 'superman' incarnations.
Turns out that 'bmx' stance is around 2kph faster than the 'superman' position.
And interestingly around 1.5kph faster than him wearing a modern skinsuit, on a current tt machine!
Crazy, I'm gonna have to raid the washing machine......


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## bulldog1935 (Mar 10, 2018)

ok, but could you ride in the position for more than 2 km?


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## dnc1 (Mar 10, 2018)

bulldog1935 said:


> ok, but could you ride in the position for more than 2 km?



Lol! Not me personally.
But Mr. Obree obviously could.


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