# BAGGI "CHAMPION OLYMPIQUE ET DU MONDE"



## Jesper (May 17, 2020)

Here's an odd "Gallic" bike from yesteryear: BAGGI type "Champion Olympique et du Monde". Although I don't know if this particular model was raced to any prestigious titles; this marque certainly gained some reputation when raced by Ottavio Pratesi, a rather underrated cyclist during the pre and post WW1 eras (his 1912 Tour de France exploits are incredible!). Always raced as an "isolati" in 5 TDF's winning that category in '23 & '24; I believe riding a BAGGI-SAMYN both years; definitely did in '23. An old French bike with old French parts. Amazingly, all components are in very good working order; bearings spin cleanly with very little play, and I have yet to overhaul anything. I am not going to alter anything on this bike; just clean up the frame and possibly touch-up the paint and the hand painted "BAGGI" down tube logo. The frame is fairly lighweight for its time; I will get a weight on it after stripping the last parts off, curious as to what it will come in at. It utilizes a Simplex 3 speed rear derailleur system ("Selection Standard/Professional" type) with idler pulley/tension arm. Speciale freewheel (15,17,19T), unknown (but very cool!) crankset (46T), Gloria brakes, Lyotard 36 pedals, Maxi (Maxi-Car?) hubs, Rigida "Deco" "C" rims, Campione alloy stem, and a nice unbranded alloy bar. Brooks Professional saddle and steel post (27.0mm) are not original, though the Ideale saddle clamp may be. Unbranded headset and bottom bracket assy's. Paint is actually of high quality aside from its near century of wear and tear; the lug work is very clean and of very good workmanship. Headbadge decal held up quite nicely, especially having it partially overlap the lugs due to a smaller size frame (my size!). I only see myself installing an alloy seat post of French/European manufacture with an Ideale saddle (I have one already for it) on top; other than that it's staying as it was ridden back in the day. I do have the original fenders, though not in photos. If anyone can provide more insight regarding this marque and/or its components l would be very thankful (and buy you a pizza!).

Take care,
Jesper


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## juvela (May 17, 2020)

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...an example from the immediate postwar period:













































newspaper advert of 1950:





how premises appear today -





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						6 Rue des Petits Champs · 6 Rue des Petits Champs, 75002 Paris, France
					

6 Rue des Petits Champs, 75002 Paris, France




					www.google.fr
				




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## juvela (May 17, 2020)

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Terryn badged road frameset constructed by SAMYN -

































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## juvela (May 17, 2020)

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BAGGI-SAMYN  -





team picture from a cycling publication of 1923 -





advert of 1928





advert of 1929





1923





1929




1929





newspaper article of 1930





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SAMYN Giro d'Italia road machine of 1972 -





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						Vintage Bicycles | Colnago, Bianchi, Pinarello | Shipping Worldwide
					

Steel Vintage Bicycles | Classic and Vintage Bicycles for Eroica | Bianchi, Colnago, Eddy Merckx ✓ Worldwide shipping




					steel-vintage.com
				




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## Jesper (May 17, 2020)

Thank you Juvela! What type of pizza do you want?
I had found a couple of the articles previously including the colored poster, which purports to show Mr. Pratesi on his bike. He did ride #299, but I found that the likeness to his photos somewhat lacking. Excellent historical stuff there. Nice to see another version of one. I'm still unpacking boxes from my move, haven't come across the fenders yet, but I know I've got them. I'm going to have to resupply my stock of bronze wool for this job to try and preserve the component finishes; I don't trust even "000" steel wool on some of the older stuff, although it can do a good job of taking off that oxidation on the old alloy parts since there's no worry about damaging an anodized finish.
Here are some more photos:


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## bulldog1935 (May 18, 2020)

VERY French classic Lightweight


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## 1motime (May 18, 2020)

The French have a way!


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## juvela (May 18, 2020)

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Speciale gear block appears it may be a Moyne product.  Resembles the Moyne model 300. You may discover an additional marking on the back side.  VAR produced a remover specifically for this pattern of gear block.





Hubs appear to exhibit a marking on their barrels.  Is it perchance EXCELTOO?  This is a marque produced by Etablissements Perrin.

Have you discovered any marking on the backside of the crank arms or chainwheel?  You may find one on the centre section of the bottom bracket spindle.

Are the Rigida wheel rims steel?

Is drive chain Renold/Brampton of France?  Are plates beveled?

Lugs: feature cut resembles NERVEX Nr. 100.

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Launch date for the BAGGI-SAMYN entity was 1919.

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## Jesper (May 18, 2020)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Speciale gear block appears it may be a Moyne product.  Resembles the Moyne model 300. You may discover an additional marking on the back side.  VAR produced a remover specifically for this pattern of gear block.
> Hubs appear to exhibit a marking on their barrels.  Is it perchance EXCELTOO?  This is a marque produced by Etablissements Perrin.
> ...




Merci Monsieur Juvela!
The hub is marked "MAXI" on the barrel, nothing on the seals. Small flange, 36 spoke count. I thought they might be MAXI-CAR, I will check more closely upon cleaning them.
Rigida rims are steel, nice convex shape.
I will check the inner side of the freewheel for any additional markings; I believe I did check for Moyne and Speciale in Velobase but nothing was listed.
My derailleur system appeared to be a cross between two Simplex models; one having a similar idler arm, the other a similar shift lever.
I don't think I had inspected the chain, so I get to that this weekend also.
From the general collection of parts it appears to be about 1936 give or take a year (more give in my opinion).
Again I had not attempted to ID the lugs, I have a pretty decent Nervex chart at the house so I will bring it with me to compare.
No, were no discernable marks on the cranks or ring.
That BB lock ring seems pretty distinctive, I will of course see what's hidden inside.
Regarding the stem, not sure if it's a model or brand, ATAX, AVA, and PIVO yielded nothing on Velobase between 1920-1940.
Thanks again for your diligent work on this frame and parts, I believe this will be a wonderful ride for what I call a "Super L'Eroica" (pre-WW2) bike.

Ton ami! Jesper

I'll have to get a couple French beers for the christening.

Photo credit: gallica.bnf.fr/Bibliotheque nationale de France


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## juvela (May 18, 2020)

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stem -

as one goes back in time there is a common ancestor for some of the french stem/bar marques

IIRC MAVIC for example was once part of AVA

did some searching on the Campione name without results, as you might imagine it is one of those terms for which one can get a great many off-the-mark hits...even though _potence _was included...

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have seen this bottom bracket lockring previously but do not know the maker

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MAXI hubs -

as with so many french brand names for parts the history and companies behind the products is complex over time

some enthusiasts argue that MAXI became MAXI-CAR while others argue the two were separate and there continued to be MAXI branded products following the launch of the MAXI-CAR entity in 1946

MAXI-CAR are produced by R.F.G. (Roulements Francises Garanti), RFG also badges some of their products as The Forez (a regional name)

CAR/C.A.R. comes from Charles Albert Ripet













for readers who would like to make a go of untangling the history there is discussion here -

www.blackbirdsf.org/maxicar/






						Maxi et Maxi-Car | Forum Velo Retro Course
					

Mars-avril 1937




					veloretrocourse.proboards.com
				




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## bduc61 (May 19, 2020)

Hi Juvela
being member of Veloretrocourse, we would appreciate if you credit the images you include in your posts  so they bear their provenance 

and to be precise , its not Charles Albert Ripet  but Celestin Albert Ripet who died beginning of 1938 !
and I am pretty sure that Maxi bought CAR or the license end of 1938 and started manufacturing CAR Maxi hubs - I own one - then Maxi CAR already prewar.
RFG is undoubtfully a "later story".


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## juvela (May 19, 2020)

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Thank you!   

since you read me post you saw that I included a link to the forum thread whence the images issue

no wish to take credit for the work of others

and o'course "all errors mine own"

I certainly make plenty 

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## bduc61 (May 19, 2020)

I have seen that but what I meant is that the pictures should be credited to veloretrocourse with a caption below them -
we insist on that as too many pictures from our own research efforts are now seen all over the world without any mention.  This is not clear from your post which is lets say "halfway" to the optimal mark


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## fatbike (May 19, 2020)

Jesper said:


> Here's an odd "Gallic" bike from yesteryear: BAGGI type "Champion Olympique et du Monde". Although I don't know if this particular model was raced to any prestigious titles; this marque certainly gained some reputation when raced by Ottavio Pratesi, a rather underrated cyclist during the pre and post WW1 eras (his 1912 Tour de France exploits are incredible!). Always raced as an "isolati" in 5 TDF's winning that category in '23 & '24; I believe riding a BAGGI-SAMYN both years; definitely did in '23. An old French bike with old French parts. Amazingly, all components are in very good working order; bearings spin cleanly with very little play, and I have yet to overhaul anything. I am not going to alter anything on this bike; just clean up the frame and possibly touch-up the paint and the hand painted "BAGGI" down tube logo. The frame is fairly lighweight for its time; I will get a weight on it after stripping the last parts off, curious as to what it will come in at. It utilizes a Simplex 3 speed rear derailleur system ("Selection Standard/Professional" type) with idler pulley/tension arm. Speciale freewheel (15,17,19T), unknown (but very cool!) crankset (46T), Gloria brakes, Lyotard 36 pedals, Maxi (Maxi-Car?) hubs, Rigida "Deco" "C" rims, Campione alloy stem, and a nice unbranded alloy bar. Brooks Professional saddle and steel post (27.0mm) are not original, though the Ideale saddle clamp may be. Unbranded headset and bottom bracket assy's. Paint is actually of high quality aside from its near century of wear and tear; the lug work is very clean and of very good workmanship. Headbadge decal held up quite nicely, especially having it partially overlap the lugs due to a smaller size frame (my size!). I only see myself installing an alloy seat post of French/European manufacture with an Ideale saddle (I have one already for it) on top; other than that it's staying as it was ridden back in the day. I do have the original fenders, though not in photos. If anyone can provide more insight regarding this marque and/or its components l would be very thankful (and buy you a pizza!).
> 
> Take care,
> Jesper
> ...





Jesper said:


> Here's an odd "Gallic" bike from yesteryear: BAGGI type "Champion Olympique et du Monde". Although I don't know if this particular model was raced to any prestigious titles; this marque certainly gained some reputation when raced by Ottavio Pratesi, a rather underrated cyclist during the pre and post WW1 eras (his 1912 Tour de France exploits are incredible!). Always raced as an "isolati" in 5 TDF's winning that category in '23 & '24; I believe riding a BAGGI-SAMYN both years; definitely did in '23. An old French bike with old French parts. Amazingly, all components are in very good working order; bearings spin cleanly with very little play, and I have yet to overhaul anything. I am not going to alter anything on this bike; just clean up the frame and possibly touch-up the paint and the hand painted "BAGGI" down tube logo. The frame is fairly lighweight for its time; I will get a weight on it after stripping the last parts off, curious as to what it will come in at. It utilizes a Simplex 3 speed rear derailleur system ("Selection Standard/Professional" type) with idler pulley/tension arm. Speciale freewheel (15,17,19T), unknown (but very cool!) crankset (46T), Gloria brakes, Lyotard 36 pedals, Maxi (Maxi-Car?) hubs, Rigida "Deco" "C" rims, Campione alloy stem, and a nice unbranded alloy bar. Brooks Professional saddle and steel post (27.0mm) are not original, though the Ideale saddle clamp may be. Unbranded headset and bottom bracket assy's. Paint is actually of high quality aside from its near century of wear and tear; the lug work is very clean and of very good workmanship. Headbadge decal held up quite nicely, especially having it partially overlap the lugs due to a smaller size frame (my size!). I only see myself installing an alloy seat post of French/European manufacture with an Ideale saddle (I have one already for it) on top; other than that it's staying as it was ridden back in the day. I do have the original fenders, though not in photos. If anyone can provide more insight regarding this marque and/or its components l would be very thankful (and buy you a pizza!).
> 
> Take care,
> Jesper
> ...



 Very cool, I love the chainring, I think it is an Solida one; there was a cat version as well. I would love to have your bike!


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## Jesper (May 20, 2020)

I am still researching the history regarding the marque, and components. Perchance, Baggi-Samyn was dissolved circa 1932 My best guess is still in the 1936-1938 range based primarily on the derailleur system if it is original to the bike. The crankset is odd in that I cannot put a set of French thread pedals on it. I have tried two sets excepting the pedals that were on it as received (Lyotard model 36?); they turn in without using any tool. The French threaded ones start about one turn and then bind up. They do not accept 9/16" at all. I am going to try the Lyotards on another French threaded crankset I have on a Crescent Pepita I just finished and see how they act when trying to install them on the OE Stronglight crank. There is nothing wrong with the pedals; I was just curious as to what their threading is. I am not familiar with Solida cranks of this era, only their '70s products.


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## juvela (May 20, 2020)

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pedal thread note -

others have encountered this also

it has been discussed on forums

those with a knowledge of metal working technology state that it has to do with how the threads are formed

some pedal threads are cut while others are rolled

experts state that the rolled ones give less trouble in this regard

one simple procedure you could do which could harm nothing would be to run some 14mm taps through the cranks and then try once again

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## cyclingday (May 20, 2020)

What a magnificent bicycle!
Thank you, for bringing it to our attention, and for the research provided by others.
Please keep us up to date as you progress further with the clean up and assembly.


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## dnc1 (May 21, 2020)

Great bike, perhaps worth looking on 'tontonvelo' if you haven't done so already.
Love to see it when it's all back together.


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## Jesper (May 25, 2020)

So I have been able to glean some more information about this marque and particular model with the help of others. 
  One possibility is that the BAGGI-SAMYN (a different "Samyn" entity from the Samyn bikes in following years) partnership was probably dissolved on or about 1932, although BAGGI marqued bikes were observed prior to this time. Olympic and World Champion palmarès were achieved in 1924. So it could not be prior to '24 having the specific type/model displaying those achievements.
  The if the "Le Simplex" chain tension arm is contemporary to the time of frame build, it would be from 1936 or later unless frame was used or "NOS". The arm is down tube mounted which was not an available design until 1936 and the Simplex edition version if this shifting system was not produced post WW2. Earlier versions had chainstay and BB mounted arms. It is doubtful that the frame is a later vintage (40s and later) and mounted with an earlier style "Osgear" style derailleur system which were essentially obsolete for racing purposes in the '40s.
  The chain is a "VITA" brand make with bevelled outer plates. 
 I have located "890" stamped into the rear left side dropout and on the rear of the fork crown.  Also, "L L" stamped into the rear left dropout and the right front dropout. No other markings found on the frame or components. I hope the "L L" is indicative of a frame builder during the 20s-30s; it may help with year identication.


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## Munny (May 30, 2020)

Jesper,

As written on my forum yesterday, serendipitously, I had to find that Juvela was posting some of my pictures on the bikeforum outside of my knowledge 
@juvela : this cannot be. Can you acknowledge that you understand that we require asking and inclusion of the source and author of a document and that you agree to act accordingly ? I have not read this...

My main objective here is to help you, Jesper.
The VITA chain was produced by a belgian brand called CPM, from the initial of their owners, Mr P&M Charbonnier.
 It is not well known but in Belgium, we have had a very large cycling industry, mainly derived from the guns manufacturers and the related companies. 
CPM commercialized (I cannot testify that they produced some or all of the followings) the VITA products, including chains, derailleurs, lamps and dynamos; they also sold the Hermesse cranks & chainring (for these I can testify that they were made in Liege by the Hermesse brothers); Duraleau rims and Selecta saddles and brakes.
They also sold brakes called Ebonite Supra and I cannot imagine them made out of ebonite. 
I've find evidences of this dating of end of 30ties to the early fifties.
However, the date of a chain is irrelevent since this is likely one of the first items to be replaced.

Concerning the "speciale" gears, until checking the back side, I would not conclude on a too well known name.
It could be many other things and the mentionned removal patern was actualy standard at that time and I've many blocks like these, even some very late ones from asian origin

Concerning the "solida" chainring, again, worned out parts are being replaced with what was localy available.
Here a link https://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=9644 to read.
You will read that although the first poster identifies the crank as Solida (to me poopty products but maybe not at the time), he doesn't state the chainring. A later poster (Mr Dejoulardi, who usualy knows what he is talking about) list it as a Mercier chainring. Later again, Gibeu, also used to know what he says, speaks of his Andrelys bike and a last one, David, of a Nervar crank ...
Out of this I would not drive any conclusion but my personnal feeling is that this is too ornated to be have been targeted for a racing bike.

Sorry to have disturbed the Cabe ...

A last thing.
The pedals treads. 
These pedals came either with french threads or BSA ones. And many cranks accordingly 
Usualy pedals manufactured with different threads can be identified with the marking
G & D - French threads (gauche et droite)
R & L - BSA
As for the Italian brands with D and S inistra ...


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## HARPO (May 30, 2020)

...and the bike is in early Celeste green...


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## Munny (Jun 7, 2020)

An extra development which came on Veloretrocourse forum https://veloretrocourse.proboards.com/

I had said 
"
The VITA chain was produced by a belgian brand called CPM, from the initial of their owners, Mr P&M Charbonnier.
It is not well known but in Belgium, we have had a very large cycling industry, mainly derived from the guns manufacturers and the related companies.
CPM commercialized (I cannot testify that they produced some or all of the followings) the VITA products, including chains, derailleurs, lamps and dynamos; they also sold the Hermesse cranks & chainring (for these I can testify that they were made in Liege by the Hermesse brothers); Duraleau rims and Selecta saddles and brakes. 
"

Here a picture of the "group" 





While this was published some times ago, now this captured the attention of another VRC member who demonstrated that the Vita products, while made in flanders, where actually produced on the other side of the borders. 
A part of Flanders is included in the north of France.

This clarified why products from other companies are included on the "group" picture. 
So Vita were produced 10 km left from the belgian-french border in the Hazebrouck city. 
(the name is written to sound right in french. In Dutch it should be Hazenbroek. The sound would be written Hazebrook in english)


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## Jesper (Jun 23, 2020)

I have managed to contact the original owner (thankfully still living), and have verified that the bike is a least a 1936 (possibly 1935) model. It was purchased for him by his parents in 1936. One mystery solved, now just trying to determine if any parts had been replaced through the years. I should be receiving my rims in the next week or two so time to get the old wheels torn apart unless I get word that the rims are still original, then I will keep it that way and use the "woodys" on another early frame set I'm working on.

Take care,
Jesper


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## Jesper (Jun 25, 2020)

I have verified the year of this bike as 1936 (possibly 1935), was able to contact the owner (thankfully still alive)  through the seller (a friend) who was given the bike in 1936 by his parents. Still trying to verify originality of the components.

Take care,
Jesper


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## Jesper (Jul 7, 2020)

I have received notification that the components are original, even the VITA chain; except: saddle, seat post, post binder bolt, and tires. I am very pleased with knowing this and hope this also helps others to date parts they might have on other bikes or just laying around. I am missing a couple of pieces on the idler pulley arm: the tension spring (see post #5 of left side BB view),and the small strap that passes under the pulley itself. The spring is only kept on when there is tension on the arm otherwise it can slip off with the arm just hanging loose when the chain is disengaged; missing when I got it so I'm trying to find one or fabricate one, but I don't know the amount of tension that was engineered into the spring if I make one myself or have one made for me.


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## juvela (Jul 8, 2020)

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Thanks very much for keeping readers updated with your research on this fascinatin' machine.

Due diligence!    

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## Jesper (Aug 25, 2021)

I am still looking for that darn spring! Time to fabricate one since it is the only thing keeping this project from completion. 

I have been recently working on some other stuff though so I will get them posted in the coming weeks/months for your enjoyment and edification. Just getting back into cycling mode after the ongoing insanity over the last year. At least I've been able to still get riding in safely.
Hope everyone is still taking due precautions; our hospital has just tightened the protocols again with the Florida ongoing outbreak.


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## cyclingday (Aug 26, 2021)

Thanks for the update.
This thread is medicine for the soul.


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