# Advice needed for TOC project



## Pondo (Jun 11, 2021)

I'd like to do a TOC project as these bikes are super cool and I love the time period and the lines of the bikes.  I don't want a museum piece but rather a bike I can actually ride, and ride in the mountains at that.  I live in steep country.  I'd like to use mostly period parts along with maybe a 2 speed kickback hub and 700c wheels.  I'm kind of just looking for a neat, fun to ride TOC bike that won't break the bank.  Does a $600-$700 budget sound reasonable?  Any recommendations for frame type, brand, model?

Also these frame seem to be typically pretty tall.  I have a 29 1/2" inseam.  Can I realistically fit on a 24" TOC frame?  Here's a couple projects I've been considering:









						Westfield pope frame/crankset/fork TOC | Sell - Trade: Bicycle Parts, Accessories, Ephemera
					

Nice BLUE 22" frame, Westfield Pope, fork, crankset, axel adjustors.  Lightweight! $225 for all, plus shipping




					thecabe.com
				












						Reduced - Toc bicycle og paint still for sale 400.00 shipped | Sell - Trade: Bicycle Parts, Accessories, Ephemera
					

Not quite complete toc bicycle, that's why I'm listing it here. Og paint, crankset, headset,and block chain. Now with a good condition steel clad wood wheelset with a black out hubset. Previous wheelset was in worse condition than I thought. Doesn't have handlebars, stem, pedals, or seat. 450.00...




					thecabe.com
				




A bike I admire (pic from CABE







Thanks!


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## fordmike65 (Jun 11, 2021)

My 24" '02 Napoleon makes for a nice rider








...as does my 24" Teens Reading, especially with the Corbin 2spd rear hub.








The most expensive parts were the wheelsets & new Brooks saddle. The frame/forks were between $250-400.


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## Pondo (Jun 11, 2021)

fordmike65 said:


> My 24" '02 Napoleon makes for a nice rider
> 
> View attachment 1428216
> View attachment 1428210
> ...



Those are some mighty fine looking rides!  I’ll have to research the Corbin 2 speeds, I didn’t know about them.


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## fordmike65 (Jun 11, 2021)

Pondo said:


> Those are some mighty fine looking rides!  I’ll have to research the Corbin 2 speeds, I didn’t know about them.



They're a little hard to find & pricy. A more modern 2 spd such as a Sachs might better fit the bill.


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jun 11, 2021)

Here are my Ghisallo carbon fiber/wooden rims, with Philwood stainless steel spokes, New Departure Model A coaster brake and modern clincher tires.


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## Pondo (Jun 11, 2021)

fordmike65 said:


> They're a little hard to find & pricy. A more modern 2 spd such as a Sachs might better fit the bill.



Thanks, I'll research that too.  I wouldn't be against using something more modern, but early vintage would be great.


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## Pondo (Jun 11, 2021)

GiovanniLiCalsi said:


> Here are my Ghisallo carbon fiber/wooden rims, with Philwood stainless steel spokes, New Departure Model A coaster brake and modern clincher tires.
> 
> View attachment 1428232
> 
> ...



Wow, those are gorgeous, Giovanni!  Are those currently in production?


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## Pondo (Jun 11, 2021)

Also, if anyone has any project stuff they would be interested in selling, please let me know.  Thanks!


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jun 11, 2021)

Pondo said:


> Wow, those are gorgeous, Giovanni!  Are those currently in production?



Yes


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## Allrounderco (Jun 11, 2021)

One thing about frame size: 24" seat tube with a lucky 7 seat post isn't the same as 24" with the seat further back like on modern bikes. The actual stretch to the pedals is lower with the saddle forward. Also, your pants inseam isn't the same as your pubic bone height.


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## Pondo (Jun 11, 2021)

GiovanniLiCalsi said:


> Yes











						Wooden Rims - Cerchio Ghisallo
					

Since 1946 the Wooden Rims, handcrafted excellence produced in Italy. Madonna del Ghisallo - Magreglio - Como




					www.cerchioghisallo.shop
				




👍


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## Pondo (Jun 11, 2021)

Allrounderco said:


> One thing about frame size: 24" seat tube with a lucky 7 seat post isn't the same as 24" with the seat further back like on modern bikes. The actual stretch to the pedals is lower with the saddle forward. Also, your pants inseam isn't the same as your pubic bone height.



I was curious about that and I thought that might be the case.  I measured my other bikes from the middle of the bottom bracket to the bottom of the seat mounting and I think it's possible I could ride a 24" TOC frame as long as the seat isn't too tall also.  Thanks for the info!


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## Freqman1 (Jun 11, 2021)

Like Mike said Wheelset for these is where the money is. The cheapest sets I’ve seen are in the $600 range. Pedals, grips, and seat can easily be another $600-700 so a $300 project May wind up costing you $1500 or better to get rolling. I don’t think you’ll find a road ready bike in that budget but try to find one as complete as possible and you’ll be money ahead. V/r Shawn


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## Pondo (Jun 11, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Like Mike said Wheelset for these is where the money is. The cheapest sets I’ve seen are in the $600 range. Pedals, grips, and seat can easily be another $600-700 so a $300 project May wind up costing you $1500 or better to get rolling. I don’t think you’ll find a road ready bike in that budget but try to find one as complete as possible and you’ll be money ahead. V/r Shawn



Yeah, I've noticed that pedals and seats are pretty pricey.  Also hubs and chains.  I'll be looking for as complete as possible for sure but I suspect I'll be using a few incorrect parts.  Great advice, thank you!


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## dnc1 (Jun 11, 2021)

You could spread your net further to find something, if you are not bothered about something that is exclusively American. 
An Italian acquaintance is currently offering this French TOC bicycle for sale.....














...... complete and ready to go. Built up with Ghisallo rims too.
This is available for €550 euros, plus shipping. 
That's around $665 usd, plus shipping, and probably import duties in your case.
Seems like a great price for something that is that ready to ride.

I'm just saying that there's a lot of stuff out there!


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## Pondo (Jun 12, 2021)

dnc1 said:


> You could spread your net further to find something, if you are not bothered about something that is exclusively American.
> An Italian acquaintance is currently offering this French TOC bicycle for sale.....
> View attachment 1428423
> 
> ...



Wow, that is a gorgeous bike!  I'm interested!


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## Archie Sturmer (Jun 14, 2021)

One might also consider a mere *antique* from about 1920 or so.

I have relatives who live very close to a skiing area, and they tell me that they use all (21?) gears in summertime. I get off and walk my bike over the sand dune hills (sandstone or adobe, paved over) just to get to a beach bike path. Not sure how to resolve the gears problem on a ToC bike; (i.e., Nexus 8-speed inter-gear hub?). 
Or maybe a small chain ring sprocket.

Sounds like a single-bar drop frame might be the right size and lowest weight; bicycle manufacturers then advertised that truss frames were more for style (and weight) than purpose.
Perhaps most important would be the integrity of the frame and fork; there may be deals on old frames that are rusted and pitted inside as well as outside.
Reliability and maintenance may be another factor, as older bicycles may be more likely to have proprietary component parts that are not made anymore.

Modern aluminum wheels might be a good cost and functionality compromise. They might even be used as an interim solution, to validate whether or not the whole mountain bike build meets expectations.

The foreign bike demonstrates another thing —braking, (especially on the down hills?).


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## dnc1 (Jun 15, 2021)

Archie Sturmer said:


> One might also consider a mere *antique* from about 1920 or so.
> 
> I have relatives who live very close to a skiing area, and they tell me that they use all (21?) gears in summertime. I get off and walk my bike over the sand dune hills (sandstone or adobe, paved over) just to get to a beach bike path. Not sure how to resolve the gears problem on a ToC bike; (i.e., Nexus 8-speed inter-gear hub?).
> Or maybe a small chain ring sprocket.
> ...



You're probably right @Archie Sturmer.
I think I'd rather use leg braking on a TOC fixie than trust that rear brake on a steep hill!


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## Pondo (Jun 17, 2021)

Archie Sturmer said:


> One might also consider a mere *antique* from about 1920 or so.
> 
> I have relatives who live very close to a skiing area, and they tell me that they use all (21?) gears in summertime. I get off and walk my bike over the sand dune hills (sandstone or adobe, paved over) just to get to a beach bike path. Not sure how to resolve the gears problem on a ToC bike; (i.e., Nexus 8-speed inter-gear hub?).
> Or maybe a small chain ring sprocket.
> ...



Thanks Archie, lots of great advice here, thank you.  I am in the process of buying a smaller framed TOC project that I think will work for me.  Still putting together a parts package.  I would love to do a teens/twenties antique build at some point too; there are some great looking frames from that period.

The roads around here are very hilly and I'd like to have an uphill gear and a downhill gear.  I also would like to keep the bars clean if possible i.e. no shifters, brake levers or cables if possible for aesthetic reasons.  Therefore the 2 speed.  I've done a little research on them and the Bendix yellow band has an underdrive and a 1:1 so that sounds like the one to try along with an appropriately sized cog.  If I wind up needing more gears I'll try something else.  I have a drum brake Sturmey 3 spd that wouldn't require cold setting the frame but would add a shifter and brake lever to the bars.  A coaster brake internal shift hub would look better with the twist shifter and only 1 cable on the bars.  Time will tell but I would like to try the 2 speed first (after the single speed  😁).

Frame integrity:  yes, very important.  I'm not going to be beating on this one but it does need to not break for sure.

Older parts:  yes, I do expect to have to deal with potential problems and parts availability.  It's kind of part of the process I think and getting things figured out is part of the fun for me.  

I am going to use modern 700c wheels for starters.  I love those new wooden rims but  they are a bit pricey so they will have to wait a while perhaps.

And braking.  Yes, brakes would be awesome but to keep the handlebars clean I'm going to have to start off with a coaster brake.  I haven't ridden a fixie but I would like to try one out.  I feel pretty comfortable with a coaster as I have lots of miles on those.  If that proves inadequate, and it probably will, then I'll have to consider drum brakes.  There will be some trial and error for sure but I think this will be a fun project!


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## dnc1 (Jun 17, 2021)

There are other options for wood rims, also from Italy.
CB Italia also make them, at a much  cheaper price than the Cerchio Ghisallo option.





__





						Homepage - CBItalia 1948
					

CBItalia, major manufacturer of wooden rims and handmade accessories for racing and restoration vintage bicycles since 1948. The only family business with a winning tradition in international bicycle competitions.




					www.cbita.it
				




Although they don't have the internal carbon fibre strengthening band.
They are good quality though. 

You could always fit a period foot operated rear  brake too......


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## Schwinny (Jun 18, 2021)

If you want a 2 speed kickback (my current favorite hub) you cant go wrong with a new Sturmey Archer S2 or S2C.
They are cheap too in comparison to the older stuff. Cog changes are easy also. I currently have one on a 27" wheel set with a 48t F/sprocket and 20t R/cog giving a real good flat land ratio. Gear spacing is 30% over drive.
I particularly like the S2C since you dont need and other brakes on the bike. The brake is more than a coaster, It will easily coast to a stop or lock up the rear wheel.
I do have a Yellow band Bendix 2 speed for a lightweight wheel if you want one of those.


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## Pondo (Jun 18, 2021)

dnc1 said:


> There are other options for wood rims, also from Italy.
> CB Italia also make them, at a much  cheaper price than the Cerchio Ghisallo option.
> 
> 
> ...



That foot brake would be awesome!  Thanks for the link on wood rims too, I will investigate.  I love wood rims.  I'd like to learn the faux wood paint technique too, at some point.


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## Pondo (Jun 18, 2021)

Schwinny said:


> If you want a 2 speed kickback (my current favorite hub) you cant go wrong with a new Sturmey Archer S2 or S2C.
> They are cheap too in comparison to the older stuff. Cog changes are easy also. I currently have one on a 27" wheel set with a 48t F/sprocket and 20t R/cog giving a real good flat land ratio. Gear spacing is 30% over drive.
> I particularly like the S2C since you dont need and other brakes on the bike. The brake is more than a coaster, It will easily coast to a stop or lock up the rear wheel.
> I do have a Yellow band Bendix 2 speed for a lightweight wheel if you want one of those.



I really like the idea of a 2 speed kickback to keep the handlebars clean.  I'll PM you on that Bendix.  Thanks!


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## Cooper S. (Jun 18, 2021)

If it were me, I’d lace a Sram Automatix two speed to a set of Alex Adventure 2 hoops


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## Pondo (Jun 18, 2021)

Cooper S. said:


> If it were me, I’d lace a Sram Automatix two speed to a set of Alex Adventure 2 hoops



That would be a fun one to try as well.  Probably on a different frame.  As Sachs 2 speed auto would be fun also.


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## Lynn43506 (Jun 20, 2021)

Pondo said:


> Also, if anyone has any project stuff they would be interested in selling, please let me know.  Thanks!



,
$350 shipped
'37 Colson


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## Pondo (Jun 20, 2021)

Lynn43506 said:


> ,
> $350 shipped
> '37 Colson
> 
> View attachment 1433393



That is a cool bike Lynn. I still need to get going on that other Colson project I bought from you! 😁


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## JimRoy (Jun 20, 2021)

GiovanniLiCalsi said:


> Here are my Ghisallo carbon fiber/wooden rims, with Philwood stainless steel spokes, New Departure Model A coaster brake and modern clincher tires.
> 
> View attachment 1428232
> 
> ...



Dang those are nice.


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