# Our own worst enemy?



## Hukah (May 20, 2021)

I was about to bid on a tank that I've had my heart set on for months now when it occurred to me that it just may be a dumb move.
Why would/should buying a vintage tank for a vintage bike be a dumb move?
Because there is no money in vintage bikes that are not og/original paint, so spending a small fortune on a genuine vintage tank doesn't make sense and isn't necessary unless I just "have to have" something expensive that doesn't add value, regardless of how good the build is.
Even original patina bikes value doesn't match their parts market value.
Why is it that vintage bike parts are worth more than a vintage bike is?
How did this happen?
Do any of us believe that's a sustainable model? Looking for the next sucker to come along and pay high bucks for a tank that won't add the purchased value to the build?
Call it cynical but I call being honest and real about the current situation.
I decided that I'm going to do without that tank after all.
I'll buy that 5speed internal hub with dynamo wheel set I've also been admiring instead, and keep my old wood tank on her instead.
They look just as cool judging by the amount of compliments I get.
I wonder if metal tanks get as many compliments?

I'd like to hear your views about this.


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## Archie Sturmer (May 20, 2021)

What is the eBay auction number; and when does the auction for the tank end?


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## Freqman1 (May 20, 2021)

I would say that’s a jaded view. Plenty of money in both original and high quality restorations. Thing is this is a hobby and I don’t get wrapped up in the financial aspect that much. If I like it and it will bring me joy I buy it. I wouldn’t be happy with a wooden tank on anything but that’s me. V/r Shawn


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (May 21, 2021)

Im with Freqman , If it is a build that you want and  enjoy and the correct parts make it so then price should not be as big a factor. If you are building it up for a sale then yes buying parts on ebay will be a costly and even backwards investment. Some bikes will not sell missing a tank there for you need to pony up if you want to sell as complete. The same goes for everything we have buying the parts always is more then the whole. Prices are a product of supply and demand.They are not making these parts anymore so supply get smaller and smaller. Like the saying goes "You do you" and let everyone else worry about themselves. I have bikes with out correct original parts and love them just as much as my complete bikes some more so because it is built up just the way I like it. I have gotten lucky a few times and came across reasonably or great priced items on ebay but have had more luck with good prices right here on the cabe.


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## old hotrod (May 21, 2021)

The good thing about the vintage/classic/antique bike hobby is there is a seat for every butt...sometimes the bad is that those seats don't always ride the same paths at the same speeds...every person has different and sometimes polarizing rules to function by, sounds like you found yours, mine will likely be different...who cares...


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## Hukah (May 21, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> I would say that’s a jaded view. Plenty of money in both original and high quality restorations. Thing is this is a hobby and I don’t get wrapped up in the financial aspect that much. If I like it and it will bring me joy I buy it. I wouldn’t be happy with a wooden tank on anything but that’s me. V/r Shawn



Jaded?
I did ask for views but I was thinking about on the subject.
I assumed we could talk about things without invalidating one another's 
experiences. 
I guess it pays to know your audience.


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## tacochris (May 21, 2021)

I mean this 100% respectfully and only as a means of conversation based on what ive learned:

If you look at this as an investment it will spoil it for you and eventually ruin your passion for it and make you scared to even buy a bike you really like.
You have to let that go and just build what you love.....I did and I am happier than I have ever been.
Sure its fun and more financially reassuring to see the value of your loved bike go up, but, as with baseball cards and beanie babies it could always tank (no pun intended) at any moment and leave your investment flat and something you love just covered in bitterness and regret.
Take my 51 phantom for example: I built it up using only original paint parts and now that its complete Im only around 750 into completing it and that feels nice but also not much of a focus to me as much as completing the bike I set out to complete.
Now, will I ever build a rare or high-valued bike a piece at a time?  Probably not....and not because of value, because of the stress and headache surrounding finding every part and being on edge all the time.  I have since decided to only buy bikes that are complete or 95% complete so as to lessen my chance of heart attack...haha


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## Freqman1 (May 21, 2021)

Hukah said:


> Jaded?
> I did ask for views but I was thinking about on the subject.
> I assumed we could talk about things without invalidating one another's
> experiences.
> I guess it pays to know your audience.



Ok my apologies I'll use your word "cynical" to validate your experience despite your claim otherwise to which I submit:
1. "unless I just "have to have" something expensive that doesn't add value, regardless of how good the build is"--not true especially in the case of a tank-Aerocycle without tank about $2500 tops. With tank $8500 and up so if I spent $5k for a tank I've still got meat on the bone. I could list other examples but you get the point
2. "Even original patina bikes value doesn't match their parts market value." Again, not always true. I don't think I could part my original paint Flying Merkel for what I could get whole.
3. "Looking for the next sucker to come along and pay high bucks for a tank..." Almost the very definition of cynicism

Your post was loaded so I was discussing the topic at hand which is your views of buying parts which you obviously want but think are overpriced. Still friends? V/r Shawn


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## rustjunkie (May 21, 2021)

tanks shmanks


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## tacochris (May 21, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> View attachment 1415886
> 
> tanks shmanks



Lol Ive had a few old guys that lived and rode these bikes back in the day and they all told me the same thing _we took all that stuff off...fenders, tanks, racks etc.....to make it like a stripped down hotrod_


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## rustjunkie (May 21, 2021)

tacochris said:


> Lol Ive had a few old guys that lived and rode these bikes back in the day and they all told me the same thing _we took all that stuff off...fenders, tanks, racks etc.....to make it like a stripped down hotrod_




yeah, partly why lots of folks are lookin for them!


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## SirMike1983 (May 21, 2021)

From a supply standpoint, the number of incomplete bicycles generally exceeds the number of good spare parts available today. The degree to which this is true depends on the part, type of bike, etc. You're correct that some of these parts, like some of the frame tanks, are very expensive because the supply of good, original spares is so small now. Buying something scarce a la carte gets expensive.

I'm not cynical about much because I got past my preconceived notions about bicycle projects. At one time, many years ago, I was dead-set on total originality and period correctness. The more old bikes I worked with, the more I became of the opinion that each bike is just an individual case. Sometimes a wooden tank is totally fine and it works great, and sometimes the bike warrants the big bucks for an original. Sometimes having more gears and aluminum rims is what you want, and sometimes original steel works best for the project. There aren't very many "hard and fast" rules in my book any more. There are a few for something that of extraordinary historical significance, but I don't own very much in that category anyway. Each bike is an individual case, and I don't make any final decisions until I see what I have and get a feel for the project as a whole. My grandfather's heirloom ballooner might get different treatment than a basic, commuter 3-speed might get, for example. So I don't stress too much anymore, I guess. I look at the bike on the stand and start envisioning what I do or do not think works best for each.


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## Alan Brase (May 21, 2021)

tacochris said:


> Lol Ive had a few old guys that lived and rode these bikes back in the day and they all told me the same thing _we took all that stuff off...fenders, tanks, racks etc.....to make it like a stripped down hotrod_



That's EXACTLY what they did. The local neighborhood guys would then race in circles at the elementary school playground on Saturday and put the inside foot down to pretend to drift. Scary to me, but I was about 5 years younger. Then one of the older neighbor boys threw me a bone of an old 1930's balloon tire frame and fork  and told me I could now build it into a ROD. Brush painted red barn paint, I think. I STILL have it!


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## Hukah (May 21, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Ok my apologies I'll use your word "cynical" to validate your experience despite your claim otherwise to which I submit:
> 1. "unless I just "have to have" something expensive that doesn't add value, regardless of how good the build is"--not true especially in the case of a tank-Aerocycle without tank about $2500 tops. With tank $8500 and up so if I spent $5k for a tank I've still got meat on the bone. I could list other examples but you get the point
> 2. "Even original patina bikes value doesn't match their parts market value." Again, not always true. I don't think I could part my original paint Flying Merkel for what I could get whole.
> 3. "Looking for the next sucker to come along and pay high bucks for a tank..." Almost the very definition of cynicism
> ...



Yes still friends. I hope so.
I believe we can have a difference of opinion and still be civil and friends.
I, to clarify further, was lamenting the dismantling of these bicycles, for one.
Like others have stated above, I know it's just the way it is and we (I) have to accept that.
I'm just having my moment of reckoning with it and thought I'd bring it to the group for further insight.

I apologize if I seem strong but I was just feeling it this morning.
Thanks for understanding.


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## Alan Brase (May 21, 2021)

Hukah said:


> Yes still friends. I hope so.
> I believe we can have a difference of opinion and still be civil and friends.
> I, to clarify further, was lamenting the dismantling of these bicycles, for one.
> Like others have stated above, I know it's just the way it is and we (I) have to accept that.
> ...



I certainly share your lamenting. I bought this Blackout New World  frame, fork and fenders on Ebay, thinking the fenders would be right for my 40 Superior I gave very little, like $50. I decided to make it back into a bike and realize the seller had sold all the blackout parts for about $80. WTF? I'd have given more for the whole thing intact. Worst part is it is a BFG or possibly other badged Schwinn New world, because the badge holes are wide spaced. I guess that means I have a lot bigger range of badges to choose from! Not necessarily trying for all original parts, Probably Blackout crank and sprocket, probably ND coaster brake, but modern rims might be easier/ better riding. Maybe it will be my "ROD" at age 71?


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## JimScott (May 21, 2021)

Jaded?- _After reading it twice and being just a 3rd party looking inward the used word "jaded" was an excellent choice of a defining word. _
I did ask for views but I was thinking about on the subject.- _You_ r_eceived a member's point of view, yes you sure did. Did you have an expectation of a Vulcan Mind Read as how would anyone know what your thinking? _
I assumed we could talk about things without invalidating one another's
experiences.- Now that s_ounds right out of the play book of a AA meeting, sorry. This really isnt a rough and tumble group but your going to need thicker skin when your asking a group of experienced collectors something they probably know a lot of. _
I guess it pays to know your audience.- _And you didn't, use it as a positive lesson learned. If you don't like "the audience" you then have a couple of easy-peezy choices to make; *1)* don't ask questions that you may not like the answers to, or *2)* feel free to leave the group because there just may be a member or two that honestly doesn't have a care in the world about your "validated experiences"... not in the least. Sometimes people just aren't a good fit. 

Be nice, play nice. G'day. _


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## Freqman1 (May 21, 2021)

I’ve found the easiest way to avoid hunting expensive parts is to just buy a complete bike. I have a couple bikes I’ve done the hard way and have about double what they’re worth into them. A couple years ago I paid $1300 for a Schwinn motorbike tank and thought that was crazy-a bargain in today’s world! Project bikes are rarely bargains. V/r Shawn


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## charnleybob (May 22, 2021)

Everybody does their hobby different.
I only try to buy complete bikes.


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## Hastings (May 22, 2021)

Not many hobbies out there that have any return on investment. The fact that in the hobby of “buying cool old stuff”  you get something back when you decide to sell. Everyone has stuff they got smoking deals on, broke even on and will probably take a loss cause they had to have it. Once it totally becomes dollars and cents it’s not a hobby more a business. Which is ok too. Nobody wants to be upside down. Hey It could always be worse..the poor girl that cashed me out at the grocery store yesterday..her parents named her Alexa.. pretty name 25 years ago..till technology stole it lol.


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## SKPC (May 22, 2021)

Hukah said:


> Call it cynical but I call being honest and real about the current situation.
> 
> I'd like to hear your views about this.



Websters' definition:
* cyn-ic* \_ n  _*2 *_: _a faultfinding captious critic:  esp : one who believes that human conduct is motivated wholly by self-interest --*cynic *_adj_

Human conduct is very predictable, and for the most part self-interested.   There is no chance everyone is or can be virtuous as the Greek philosophers maintained was the only good and that its' essence lied in self-control _and_ independence.

     Don't you just love the English language?    I am very cynical about most everything I read and see, simply because I am older, but everything bike related reduces my cynical tendencies and lowers my temperature, particularly when I am astride one of my old bikes...


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## Schwinny (May 22, 2021)

Uh oh, I think Carl Jung just showed up... 
Im pretty sure it's the same for every hobby, and every facet of life.
We balance our self esteem with money and things, then justify it with want, value and imagined entitlement.
Our Capitalist programming insists that we separate ourselves into tiers

Aspiring
Entitled
Jaded
This is the way humans live their lives all over the world but Americans have more time and money, so some of us add to our daily tier struggle with these collateral duties (hobbies). Hobbys conveniently take over where our daily lives leave off.
Our reasonings are all quite different. There really is no "need" but if we want to tier jump, or even maintain the status quo of the tier we have achieved, we will need money to do it.
The guy that stumbled on the rarest bike ever and was given it as a token, will soon find himself on a tier that he must accept or deny. If he accepts it, that bike has placed him at a level he will need to maintain with money. If he denies it, he will sell the bike and use that money to maintain or advance the level he is on.
I have certain parts on bikes that are worth waaaay more than the bike they are on, AND the bike sitting next to it. After awhile, I will eventually sell either the bike or the part because I have become jaded to it. I personally deny entitlement so I give a lot of things away that people are willing to pay for. Then again, sometimes I ask too much, feeling around for a price to buy the next thing I aspire to, sometimes I give things away I have become jaded to and because I have the money to do either, I feel entitled to do it.
Nobody "invests" anything but time in their hobby. The money is used to maintain or advance.

So, tell me more about this tank....


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## vincev (May 22, 2021)

This is a hobby !! If you plan on getting rich selling bike parts you are in the wrong hobby.Collecting bikes is the fun of the hunt.Who quits collecting after the rush of finding their first treasure ??Keep it fun .


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## CycleTruck211 (May 22, 2021)

I've done it both ways. Spent too much on a tank, just because I wanted a tank to fit the bike, and I've spent too much on modern hubs, because I wanted my old Schwinn Tiger to be easier on my bones. Do the hobby your way, and feel good about it.


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## chaparralian (May 22, 2021)

I'm about done with restoring my bike. When I say mine, I mean that. It's the 1961 Schwinn Speedster my parents bought me when I was a kid. I'd say between the...

new wrenches
replacement original seat, pedals, and rear reflector
new tires and tubes
rubber rim strips
spokes (replaced about 12, not with original ones - that would have cost me about $180 for 36 - but new ones that work just fine)
Evaporust
oxalic acid (and large pan to pour it in)
new head badge
new decals
high temp grease for the coaster brake
regular grease

I've spent just north of $600 restoring my old friend.

I had the inaugural ride yesterday. Left some rubber on the neighbor's driveway. It felt so good. Everything moved like silk.

So I bypassed the original spokes because they were just too much. Besides, Tim, the gentleman I bought them from on Ebay (holdthesuninyourhands), called me one afternoon to make sure I was getting what I wanted. In his opinion, he thought it was dumb to buy original spokes for so much money when nearly no one could ever tell the difference and I'd feel better about buying the less expensive ones anyway (the originals are thicker at the top and bottom). I paid about $30 for 36.

So about that tank. Sounds like the prospect of buying it for the steep price it was offered just didn't fit your sensibilities. Like the $180 original spoke set for me. These bikes are so precious. It's a preciousness that you feel deep inside. The memories the bike still has on its frame. The history. Feeling like you got ripped off on a part or the part was just an unnecessary extravagance, that messes with the inner joy. Go with the joy. You made the right choice.


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## Coalfield (May 23, 2021)

Are you a rider? or collector?

Meticulous?  Slack hobbiest?

Simple for me. Rider of old bikes.  Old shifters, rim brakes, quality frames, excellent tires.  Model specific components are nice, era appropriate upgrades maybe nicer. Original paint, light patina rules.  However, chainrings to reflect old knees becoming a necessity.

On the collector side = too much $$$ for ‘drool’ you almost never ride, for me.


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## chaparralian (May 23, 2021)

Coalfield said:


> Are you a rider? or collector?
> 
> Meticulous?  Slack hobbiest?
> 
> ...



Since this is my original bike as a kid, the process was joy to experience. Have never done this kind of thing before. All I wanted to do was to bring him back to life so I could rider him again around the neighborhood like I did as a kid. And I am. Did the inaugural ride the other day. Laid some rubber on a neighbor's driveway. So not sure how to characterized me, but I figure if you don't have fun riding a restored bike, what's the point


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## Sven (May 25, 2021)

As @vincev stated this is a hobby. I have many hobbies. I've  never looked at them as money making ventures. 
I don't know how much money I've spent this past year restoring my grand father's prewar Lionel locomotives. Hobbies cost money
In regards to bicycle renovation or restoration, *my* theory is.....
*If I haven't spent more money on my project, than what it's worth...it a fail. *
Another theory of mine is....




Just have fun.


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## hzqw2l (May 25, 2021)

I don't sweat what I spend on hobbies or anything else that hits the disposable income side of the ledger.

Scarce parts to complete a bike can be pricey but when they come up for sale you have to know somebody else is looking for the same thing.

Act accordingly.


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## Coalfield (May 25, 2021)

chaparralian said:


> Since this is my original bike as a kid, the process was joy to experience. Have never done this kind of thing before. All I wanted to do was to bring him back to life so I could rider him again around the neighborhood like I did as a kid. And I am. Did the inaugural ride the other day. Laid some rubber on a neighbor's driveway. So not sure how to characterized me, but I figure if you don't have fun riding a restored bike, what's the point




My post was a general reply to the original poster.  It followed your post, so logical to assume it was directed at you.

I 100% agree on the JOY aspect of a restoration.  I enjoy getting nice old riders back on the road, short of restoration - for the *joy of riding* them.  If I restored the bike from my childhood (the 'family bike'), it would give me no joy and that single speed would never be ridden in my hilly-to-mountainous region.


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## vincev (Jun 11, 2021)

If you are in this hobby to make money,you picked the wrong hobby.Do it because you enjoy old bikes and get a real job to make money to buy the parts.lol


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## Superman1984 (Jun 11, 2021)

I had wrote a whole big paragraph loaded with my thoughts and opinions but I am going to kinda keep that to myself. All I will say is do what you feel will make you the most happy. You have vultures, snakes, and sometimes you're jus' the little fish in a mud hole when it comes to "hobbies" 😐 
Interpret that however you will ....


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