# Oh no! Sears Chief Parted Out (!) on the bay



## creebobby

Goodness - Rusty teens Sears Chief is being entirely parted out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-MID-LATE-TEENS-SEARS-CHIEF-BICYCLE-MOTORBIKE-FRAME-ORIGINAL-ANTIQUE-INDIAN?item=180947792403&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26itu%3DI%252BUA%26otn%3D12%26pmod%3D180948047885%26po%3DLWI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D1298607512705732292#ht_500wt_1181

It will be interesting to add up all the totals from all the parts and compare it to what they could have gotten for it whole.

The thing survives ninety five years, only to be split up five years before it turns 100.
I know it's a parts hobby and it just comes down to economics, but wow.


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## fuzzyktu

too bad...that was a cool bike!!!


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## Rambler

Yes this would be a good auction to watch to see if parting out really makes financial sense or not.


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## bricycle

...too bad everything was so severely weathered!!


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## Gary Mc

*Sad sad sad*

All I can say is this is sad!!!!!!!!!  This one deserved to be saved intact.  To each his own but NO WAY I would have ever parted that bike out, it deserved a better fate.


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## Nick-theCut

Definately a shame.  Individually just some crusty parts.  Collectively an awesome survivor.  This is almost like staking a vampire... the end of an era.


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## SirMike1983

I've had my eye on this since it turned up on ebay- just curious more than anything else. It's pretty crusty, but it could make a very nice project for someone with a lot of time and money to put into it. From what I can tell the original paint was a harlequin-type two-tone job. If you could recreate that with care and attention, it would really be a nice looking bike. The beauty is that, even after almost 100 years, you have the components there to at least make a run at it. With bikes of that age you're often missing stuff or in the hunt for something that may not even be out there anymore. Of course being parted out, you have to win all the different auctions if you want to take on the whole project.


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## Nickinator

I am considering buying every part instead of a airflow.

Nick.


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## Gary Mc

Nickinator said:


> I am considering buying every part instead of a airflow.
> 
> Nick.




Nick, I hope someone does exactly that.  I considered it but if I bring in another bike right now my wife will kill me.  Good luck & I hope you get it.  It is really a great bike dependent on how high all the parts go.  Would be a great candidate for a total restoration.


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## bricycle

It's weird that the saddle survived so much better than the rest....those spokes are barely there!


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## slick

Another one bites the dust. Well the badge alone should bring at least $125. I'm guessing all the different lots will equal close to the $800 mark. he should have offered it complete first. If it didn't sell, then part it. At least the option would have been there. Greed once again..


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## bricycle

yea, I checked their completed listings, doesn't look as if they tried to sell it whole.....


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## creebobby

If auctioned complete (and in the condition it's in) I'd see it ebay-ing as a complete bike for maybe $700 - $800?  Am I off by a lot?
I did a quick guess at the ending price of each part, added them all up and came up with a parted out grand total of . . . .
$1310
Those are wild guesses . . . maybe we should start an 'ebay old bikes prices realized betting pool'? 

The suckertrap of trying to win every part is: what if two other guys have the same strategy?  The first few parts that end could go for silly prices - and then you have to beat they guy who needs a crusty Chief seat, the guy who needs a crusty Chief dropstand . . .

(Not to mention the fact that some of these parts could end up on an 'almost-correct' Harley Motocyke tribute/replica/fake . . .)


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## bricycle

Let's take a moment of silence at this time to remember a once beautiful cycle.............
Ok, who's holding the reception?
We all could chip in $1.00 and buy it as a group, and then raffle it on the CABE????


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## GenuineRides

*I like the raffle idea!*

Let's all chip in $20 and then raffle off the bike and the remaining cash to help restore it back to it's glory!
100 people = $2K that should buy the bike and some parts, paint and labor to complete it...

GenuineRides


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## OldRider

R.I.P. Sears Chief, you deserved a better fate then this. Looking at all the crusty parts and then seeing that nice supple seat I have my doubts whether that particular seat went with that particular bike. In my mind it should be in the same state as the rest of it.


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## Balloontyre

The bike served its purpose all ready. Now it's serving many.


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## slick

I like the raffle idea. But replating the parts would be very tough. Look at those pits! That's a lot of sanding and lots of material will be lost. Either that or lots of dipping to fill them.....


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## creebobby

You guys are right.
Those are deep, deep, super deep pits everywhere there is no paint.
Hadn't really studied the pics close.
In the case of the seat springs, I think the pits are the only thing holding them together

I assume the parts will go to help complete other ravaged survivors, as restoration doesn't seem practical.


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## bricycle

OldRider said:


> R.I.P. Sears Chief, you deserved a better fate then this. Looking at all the crusty parts and then seeing that nice supple seat I have my doubts whether that particular seat went with that particular bike. In my mind it should be in the same state as the rest of it.




It IS a Chief seat tho.....


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## miller32

Reading all the comments...I think I can understand all thoughts on this bike.  Yes, it is a shame to part out any bike.  This isn't about greed as one caber has mentioned....it's about getting the parts out there so others can complete their projects.  I see some people needing this or that for their bike to be completed...and how in the world can they complete their projects if opportunities like this one...don't come up?  If it was about greed...then I would bet there would be a reserve on the items.  No reserve auction means that it goes for whatever it ends with...whether that is a dollar or 200 dollars...!  It would take a lot to restore this bike...money.  Some people need a crank...some need a seat...some need the fenders.  Let's try and help them complete their bikes if possible.  If the bike is so crusty as some mention...I would assume you mean it is not worth much?  Considering the bike is close to 100 years old...I would expect it to look as it does...and it is not bad...it is still solid.  Obviously, parting this bike has ruffled some feathers...but I'd bet some people are happy because they just might have a chance to get one or two items to complete their Chief.  You cannot please everyone....but helping out those who are looking for certain parts means more than pleasing everyone.  By the way....the seat is original to bike.  I have bikes that still need this or that to complete....I still am waiting for these parts to show up so I can finish those projects.  I would be excited as heck if auctions like this one came up...so then I might have a chance to bid on items/parts I need for those bikes still waiting in my collection.  Greedy people have bikes on ebay for 12,000 when the bike is only worth 2,000.  This auction is NO RESERVE....I see no greed in that.  I have been asked to end auction early...but as I have seen on the CABE...people don't like it when auctions are ended early.  Ending auctions early makes you wonder what happened to the item or items?  It makes you wonder if the item ever existed.  It throws up all sorts of questions.  I want to give everyone a chance....if you want the whole bike...bid on everything.  You may get it for less than you originally thought.  If you need just that one part to finish your Chief...bid on just that part...and I hope you get that part so your bike can finally be COMPLETE.  Either way...no reserve means everyone has a chance....... 

Also...to the ruffled feathers....the bike is solid...and isn't going to crumble to the ground.  Yes...there is wear...and yes the spokes are brittle...but mind you...it won't turn to dust from the next person's touch.  It is a great survivor!  What is one to expect from 100 years...?  There is still paint...paint on the fenders is much better than frame.  When we are all 100 years old...wonder what we will look like??? .....probably not as good as the bike!


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## Gary Mc

Miller32, thanks for your explanation & I agree with pretty much everything you said.  As someone searching for parts to complete 2 pre-1933 bikes right now I do understand and agree.  The good side is this may help many bikes get completed and back on the road but deep in me it just always makes me sad as I said to see a really rare complete bike get parted out, a dilemma I struggle with but do understand.  Again thanks for your explanation and "no reserve" auctions that in the end benefit all us bike collectors on the CABE.  Sorry if my comments came across as ruffled, more just sad to see one get parted but then glad they will help others get theirs on the road.  Good luck with the auctions.


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## miller32

Gary Mc said:


> Miller32, thanks for your explanation & I agree with pretty much everything you said.  As someone searching for parts to complete 2 pre-1933 bikes right now I do understand and agree.  The good side is this may help many bikes get completed and back on the road but deep in me it just always makes me sad as I said to see a really rare complete bike get parted out, a dilemma I struggle with but do understand.  Again thanks for your explanation and "no reserve" auctions that in the end benefit all us bike collectors on the CABE.  Sorry if my comments came across as ruffled, more just sad to see one get parted but then glad they will help others get theirs on the road.  Good luck with the auctions.




Gary Mc...thanks for the reply.  I always believe everyone is entitled to their opinions.  As I said...any original bike is a shame to part out.  But if bikes were never parted out....there would be lots of projects set aside in garages...storages...and other places that would never get finished.  I set "no reserve"...now what the bike (or parts) are worth...is not up to me.  I have no more say in the price....the bidders do...and I accept the highest bid.  The bike is out there on the auction block and is not gone yet.  Everyone has a chance at it.  If it sells to one person...all the pieces....then they can have the whole bike and I can combine the shipping to save them money.  If it sells separately...the parts....then I know that the parts are going to help someone complete their own Chief.  

What one person does with his or her bicycle is totally up to that person.  I try not to judge people or belittle their decisions.  Everyone has their reasons for doing what they do.  I have seen nasty comments on many blog sites about people's cars, bicycles, collectibles and such....and I feel that when we are together...sharing a sport/hobby...we should always be respectful of other people's items/choices/feelings.  As I have said...the bike is a survivor...and yet not shiny like the newer bikes....it's no where near turning to dust.  I quote this from another post _"In the case of the seat springs, I think the pits are the only thing holding them together"_. When you ruffle feathers...the barn doors open!  The seat as a whole is in great shape...if you look closely at pics.  Hard to find them like this still!  The seat is truly a great pieces!!!!!    

Anyway....If this bike's parts go to completing 4 or 5 other bikes...then that is a huge accomplishment in my book.  If one lucky bidder gets this entire bike at a great deal...then even better.  But with the no reserve...that allows all avenues open and anyone could be the lucky last bidder. 

Gary Mc....thanks again...and I honor your opinion.  You said nothing out of line!


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## slick

Miller 32, may i ask how come you didn't try to sell it here complete first since you are a member? If it didn't sell then sure part it. I'm sure many of us would have bought it complete. As far as rust, I meant to the fact of trying to win every auction, then pay to have it fully restored would be pricey. Probably in the $3500-4k mark by the time it's all said and done but it does deserve a resto. The plating takes a lot of metal work, as far as rust on the painted parts, ya, no bigee once it's blasted and primed, reblocked and reprimed would be easy. I just hate seeing them get parted out. If you priced the bike at $1k i'm sure it would have sold complete. The seat alone will probably top the $200 mark. Good luck on your auction.


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## miller32

*Trying to be fair...*



slick said:


> Miller 32, may i ask how come you didn't try to sell it here complete first since you are a member? If it didn't sell then sure part it. I'm sure many of us would have bought it complete. As far as rust, I meant to the fact of trying to win every auction, then pay to have it fully restored would be pricey. Probably in the $3500-4k mark by the time it's all said and done but it does deserve a resto. The plating takes a lot of metal work, as far as rust on the painted parts, ya, no bigee once it's blasted and primed, reblocked and reprimed would be easy. I just hate seeing them get parted out. If you priced the bike at $1k i'm sure it would have sold complete. The seat alone will probably top the $200 mark. Good luck on your auction.




Appreciate your reply.  To answer your question truthfully....I am a Caber too (true)...and we also have local people who know we collect..buy and sell and people who email our personal (L-n-W) website who are looking for items too.  We have a facebook page and we try to spread the hobby through as many aspects as possible.  We get lots of emails from our outside sites too....wanting bicycles and or parts.  To be fair to everyone...we just assume that Ebay gives everyone a chance.  To be even more fair...I try to run with no reserve on some items.  Sure there might be a few items I run with a reserve...but most I let go for what the masses price it at.  

In the future...I will try to remember to post items I am about to sell on Ebay on here first to let you know they are coming up.  I didn't think running on Ebay (to give everyone a chance) would be such a deal...but again...I am just trying to be fair.


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## creebobby

I think we all see both sides.

Those of us that are more preservationists than restorationists would simply prefer to see nearly complete and original charming rusty antique bikes remain nearly complete and original charming rusty antique bikes.  Because that's something that can't be replicated.

Hopefully there are fifteen guys out there with Sears Chiefs that are miraculously missing only one part (and each of them is also miraculously missing a different part), and that these parts don't go to boxed parts hordes or hopeful mismatched Sears Chief assemblages that will never become complete bikes.

Heck, now I wanna bid on a piece of this (now) famous bike.  I'll put it on the wall and someday tell my grandkids about the great Sears Chief parts bonanza of 2012.  Either that or double my money selling it to the poor fella who buys most of the other parts.

Perhaps when the auction is done we can compile a registry (with Miller32s help) of everyone who buys a part off this bike.
The new happy part owners can have a reunion every ten years and bolt their respective parts together for one glorious weekend of reunited Chiefdom.


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## miller32

*Feathers a flying!!!*



creebobby said:


> I think we all see both sides.
> 
> Those of us that are more preservationists than restorationists would simply prefer to see nearly complete and original charming rusty antique bikes remain nearly complete and original charming rusty antique bikes.  Because that's something that can't be replicated.
> 
> Hopefully there are fifteen guys out there with Sears Chiefs that are miraculously missing only one part (and each of them is also miraculously missing a different part), and that these parts don't go to boxed parts hordes or hopeful mismatched Sears Chief assemblages that will never become complete bikes.
> 
> Heck, now I wanna bid on a piece of this (now) famous bike.  I'll put it on the wall and someday tell my grandkids about the great Sears Chief parts bonanza of 2012.  Either that or double my money selling it to the poor fella who buys most of the other parts.
> 
> Perhaps when the auction is done we can compile a registry (with Miller32s help) of everyone who buys a part off this bike.
> The new happy part owners can have a reunion every ten years and bolt their respective parts together for one glorious weekend of reunited Chiefdom.




As I see...your feathers are really ruffled.  Well...I think I have explained myself plenty.  I love your sense of thinking that people are not "miraculously" missing parts to any Chiefs because that would be MIRACULOUS if they were! There are Chiefs out there...and believe it or not...."miraculously"...they are missing parts.  Some Chiefs are missing more than one or two miraculous parts.  You have a choice now....try and buy the whole bike...or get the parts you need.  Either way...ALL have a chance.  I hope you get an invite to that reunion....


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## Rust_Trader

Thanks miller32 for making this bike available in parts, can't wait to snag some of those parts.






I don't own a Chief, but we do live in a society in which "trade" is the new currency.


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## scrubbinrims

creebobby said:


> I think we all see both sides.
> 
> Those of us that are more preservationists than restorationists would simply prefer to see nearly complete and original charming rusty antique bikes remain nearly complete and original charming rusty antique bikes.  Because that's something that can't be replicated.
> 
> Hopefully there are fifteen guys out there with Sears Chiefs that are miraculously missing only one part (and each of them is also miraculously missing a different part), and that these parts don't go to boxed parts hordes or hopeful mismatched Sears Chief assemblages that will never become complete bikes.
> 
> Heck, now I wanna bid on a piece of this (now) famous bike.  I'll put it on the wall and someday tell my grandkids about the great Sears Chief parts bonanza of 2012.  Either that or double my money selling it to the poor fella who buys most of the other parts.
> 
> Perhaps when the auction is done we can compile a registry (with Miller32s help) of everyone who buys a part off this bike.
> The new happy part owners can have a reunion every ten years and bolt their respective parts together for one glorious weekend of reunited Chiefdom.




I hadn't noticed you until that post which I find clever and humorous on a sad topic.

Parting out a bicycle is more justifiable if the condition is poor or if it is an otherwise unsellable bicycle at a reasonable price (often a girls model).
The condition of this bicycle would be below my standards of keeping it together at all costs, however, I would have tried to sell it whole first, and then batch the parting out.
I think separating fenders and wheels is a little too far and probably hurts the value they could bring together and I wouldn't bid on a frame without its soul, ever.

That's all I have to say about it...it's done.
Chris


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## slick

scrubbinrims said:


> I hadn't noticed you until that post which I find clever and humorous on a sad topic.
> 
> Parting out a bicycle is more justifiable if the condition is poor or if it is an otherwise unsellable bicycle at a reasonable price (often a girls model).
> The condition of this bicycle would be below my standards of keeping it together at all costs, however, I would have tried to sell it whole first, and then batch the parting out.
> I think separating fenders and wheels is a little too far and probably hurts the value they could bring together and I wouldn't bid on a frame without its soul, ever.
> 
> That's all I have to say about it...it's done.
> Chris





Very nicely put Chris. I agree. Too many bikes are getting parted out. But that's ok because the owners of the OG paint ones will be millionaires in the future when someone is looking for an OG paint whatchamacallit. I am striving to buy and keep only OG paint bikes no matter how crusty they are. The search goes on.....


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## creebobby

*Preened, not Ruffled.*



miller32 said:


> As I see...your feathers are really ruffled.  Well...I think I have explained myself plenty.  I love your sense of thinking that people are not "miraculously" missing parts to any Chiefs because that would be MIRACULOUS if they were! There are Chiefs out there...and believe it or not...."miraculously"...they are missing parts.  Some Chiefs are missing more than one or two miraculous parts.  You have a choice now....try and buy the whole bike...or get the parts you need.  Either way...ALL have a chance.  I hope you get an invite to that reunion....




Honestly, my feathers aren't that ruffled (though looking back I did start this whole thread with 'Oh no!') - in the last post I was simply being a bit of a smartmouth.

If you reread my post, the stated miracle would be if all the proposed Chief projects out there were ONLY missing one part.
I was satirizing the implication that parting out a bike is altruistic because it completes a bunch of other bikes.  It seems to me like it's just as likely to contribute to parts collections or even start new projects.

I feel that the most valid reason for parting out a bike is simple economics, and I agree that ebay is the best place to sell things for their market value.  

I think, however, there is a little bit of a carnival hustle in suggesting that all have an equal chance to win either the parts or the complete bike.
Yes, all have an equal chance to win any particular part, but the notion that others simultaneously have an equally fair shot at getting the complete bike seems like a reach to me.  Having separate part auctions favors separate part buyers.
In practical reality, the person who tries to buy all the parts will most likely fail, and in the process create inflated prices for the parts they bid on.

Who knows, maybe everything will sell real cheap 
Best of luck to all who jump in on this one.


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## miller32

creebobby said:


> Honestly, my feathers aren't that ruffled (though looking back I did start this whole thread with 'Oh no!') - in the last post I was simply being a bit of a smartmouth.
> 
> If you reread my post, the stated miracle would be if all the proposed Chief projects out there were ONLY missing one part.
> I was satirizing the implication that parting out a bike is altruistic because it completes a bunch of other bikes.  It seems to me like it's just as likely to contribute to parts collections or even start new projects.
> 
> I feel that the most valid reason for parting out a bike is simple economics, and I agree that ebay is the best place to sell things for their market value.
> 
> I think, however, there is a little bit of a carnival hustle in suggesting that all have an equal chance to win either the parts or the complete bike.
> Yes, all have an equal chance to win any particular part, but the notion that others simultaneously have an equally fair shot at getting the complete bike seems like a reach to me.  Having separate part auctions favors separate part buyers.
> In practical reality, the person who tries to buy all the parts will most likely fail, and in the process create inflated prices for the parts they bid on.
> 
> Who knows, maybe everything will sell real cheap
> Best of luck to all who jump in on this one.





Creebobby...

I understand both sides..also! But if some bikes never get parted out....other bikes could never be finished.  I...too...hope the parts go to completing a Chief bicycle or two - rather than landing on someone's shelf.  I appreciate your reply...!  Thanks....


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## 37fleetwood

You make it sound so humanitarian, while the obvious motive is to rape and pilage for the most profit. there really aren't enough of these out there, and the value isn't so high that someone with a project wouldn't simply pick up this bike as a complete bike and then his collected parts would come out serving the same purpose you purport to be so concerned about.
in short I don't buy it. I just wish there was a way to deprive people who part out complete original bikes from getting them in the first place. if it were up to me, I would rather see this bike go to the landfil than see someone profit from it's destruction


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## dougfisk

37fleetwood said:


> You make it sound so humanitarian, while the obvious motive is to rape and pilage for the most profit. there really aren't enough of these out there, and the value isn't so high that someone with a project wouldn't simply pick up this bike as a complete bike and then his collected parts would come out serving the same purpose you purport to be so concerned about....  in short I don't buy it.




+1

The parts flung about for random uses can't possibly serve a higher purpose than in their original intact and complete installation.  None of those "donee" bikes are original and intact.  They are all cobbled together, regardless whether they are cobbled together poorly or cobbled together accurately.

I call BS on the "helping the hobby" rationalizations.


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## Rust_Trader

It makes me sick to read this kind of posts, let's stop being hypocrites. I'm sure all of you have bought parts to complete a bike. Or did you find that special tank/seat/rims/lights or whatever part on a shelf???

Come on guys stop the trash talk, you well know all of you benefit from bikes being parted out.


Most of the time I don't comment on threads like this but it just makes me sick how intrusive and hypocrites one can be.


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## Nickinator

Greens07 said:


> It makes me sick to read this kind of posts, let's stop being hypocrites. I'm sure all of you have bought parts to complete a bike. Or did you find that special tank/seat/rims/lights or whatever part on a shelf???
> 
> Come on guys stop the trash talk, you well know all of you benefit from bikes being parted out.
> 
> 
> Most of the time I don't comment on threads like this but it just makes me sick how intrusive and hypocrites one can be.




your right we all have bought parts off bikes before but, I would never part out a almost complete bike nor would I buy a part from it.
Its just bad karma for me and Wouldn't recommend it.


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## Balloontyre

All bikes started as parts. 

Amazing how many people talk about bikes as though they are a living thing and need to be preserved and saved, blah blah blah...
It's someone else's property, who cares what they do with it. 
What about collections never seeing the light of day, or bikes not being ridden? 
To some that is outrage, again the owners choice. Who cares? Really!


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## bricycle

...see these bikes???
Shapleigh $400
US Cycle $750
B-10e $750
BA-107 $650
1956 JCH $150
Black Phantom $700
Iver $500
1960 Scwhinn Blk & Wht $375
...No one here at the time bought them whole.....so parted they got...nuff said!


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## Rust_Trader

You better Not be on the members map, do you hear steps behind you? Lol 












bricycle said:


> ...see these bikes???
> Shapleigh $400
> US Cycle $750
> B-10e $750
> BA-107 $650
> 1956 JCH $150
> Black Phantom $700
> Iver $500
> ...No one here at the time bought them whole.....so parted they got...nuff said!


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## Bicycle Belle

This debate will go on until the end of time, of that I'm sure.
Balloontyre, isn't that why people collect bicycles? To preserve and protect them? Isn't that why people collect anything in the first place?
I too am kind of tired of the romanticizing that goes on about parting bikes. It's done for profit plain and simple, at least be honest about it. 
When I buy a bike I put NO consideration into what I would get if I sold it. For me it kind of defeats the purpose of being a collector. I do however come to a decision about the value and what I will pay based on the bicycle and the sum of its parts and a few other factors. I wouldn't part with or part a single bike in my humble collection and I have bikes from one end of the spectrum to the other value wise. I don't buy bikes to make money, it's not what interests me. I don't begrudge anyone else from making money but I can understand the sadness of seeing a nice old complete bike used that way.
I too have bought parts to complete bikes but I wouldn't have had to do that if they weren't parted out in the first place. Lately though I have had really good luck in finding really lovely complete bicycles and somewhat reasonable prices.


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## miller32

You know...if I had ever thought there would be this much bad flack on parting this bike out...I would have never put it out there.  I am not going to get rich from this auction.  I am not out to get big bucks....if I was...then we would have but some ridiculous reserve on each part.  If these bikes are so rare....so so rare....then wouldn’t it make sense that I might only get one or two bidders on the bike parts.  There are people looking for parts!!! 

How is one to truly enjoy a hobby/sport when we have so many in the sidelines waiting to pounce on the next guy or gal that does something they don’t like.  I don’t understand why people have to be so cruel.  I am not understanding why we have to ridicule other people’s choices. I TRULY don’t understand why we would judge bikes that have been pieced together by calling it a whatchamacallit or a donee.  We might as well park and put up all our pieced together bikes because they will only be considered as rejects.

I am not understanding how we can sit behind our computers and throw out uncalled for criticism towards someone else.  Why do that?  What if one day a bike shows up on Ebay being parted out and you finally get a tank, or fender, or a light that you need.  Are you going to step away a not bid???  Because you know....as it has been stated....your bike will never be pure or original...it will be a whatchamacallit.  

I went to an auction the other day....and a gentlemen came up to look at this antique bike that was going to be sold.  We talked about it for a bit...and then he began to tell me all the things wrong with the bike.  He said....it wasn’t what he expected and he had absolutely no interest in it.  He trash talked the bike.  Then he proceeded to say that he was not in any way going to bid on the bike.  Well...guess what!  I stayed for the bidding...hoping to throw a couple bids in....and low and behold....the guy that belittled the bike and said he was not going to bid....was in the very back corner throwing his hand up at big numbers.  We all noticed.  Why was he in the corner????  I think we all know.

This is sad....it is sad that posts like these even get started in the first place.  Do we want to talk about bikes....or enjoy the trash that gets thrown around.  I much rather be talking something about bikes.  Whether you believe it or not....this bike or its parts is not out to make me rich.  And nine times out of ten...it will probably go to completing another Chief and I am more than thrilled about that.  This Chief has made a stir....and I am sorry to all those on the Cabe that are here to be educated...or here to investigate....or become a part of a special group of people trying to enjoy this hobby.  It is a shame some people don’t know when to stop.  By the way....if anyone cares...I have an Evinrude that needs some parts to finish.  I thought selling some of my other bikes and parts would help me to maybe get this thing restored.  Guess what though....this Evinrude is rare....and I'm probably not going to find one part I need....but let me tell you.....I will be jumping for joy and would be willing to bend over backwards if someone would part out their Evinrude so that I might finish mine....and I sure as heck won't judge the guy that sells one to help me!  But....God help the person that parts out an Evinrude...because they will be banished and destroyed on a forum like this by a few.  So...I will like others...wait and wait...for that super rare chance to come up!  Maybe one day in the future I will have the parts...and I can have the whatchamacallit EVINRUDE...restored from mismatched parts only to be declared as not a true Evinrude because of those parts!

I am totally shocked.....
A person's character is being judge for selling parts.  
Sorry guys...I hope it ends soon...


----------



## RMS37

First of all;



Balloontyre said:


> Who cares? Really!




If you scroll back over the last few posts you will be able to note there are several people who obviously care about the subject so you must have meant to say “Really! I don’t care” but I suppose you actually do or you wouldn’t have posted on this thread.

 Parting out bikes and how it helps or hurts the “Hobby” is obviously a hot button topic, perhaps the hottest relevant topic (that is not meant to put down the Anemone thing) that comes up for discussion on this site.

  The Hobby is ultimately made up of the people who choose to consider they belong to it and while there are common denominators that align us, there are bound to be areas where we disagree. I see the preservation vs. modification debate really as a spectrum of choice and it is unlikely there is anyone here who represents or lives at either end of that spectrum. Ultimately we will all find a place we draw our line in the sand and that is likely to be different from the exact location of any other collector’s line.

  The point is justly made that one is legally open to do whatever they want with their personal belonging and it is true that virtually all of the bicycles in America are privately owned. That rational obviously does not quiet those who believe that it hurts the Hobby as they see it by depleting a nonrenewable resource and arguably goes against the philosophical basis for collecting. Telling people who are expressing their beliefs about the subject that a person can do what they want with what is theirs is a rhetorical fob-off that does nothing to calm the waters.

  While it is generally known that any bike will bring more in parts than it will sold as a whole, it is not true that a bike has to be sold in parts to be sold. No rational person wants to loose money when they decide to sell a bike but in many cases if they truly look at what they paid for the bike, a small profit would move the bike quickly. Even if the magic number that makes a bike go away is less than what an owner invested, the option is open to anyone who holds the opinion to keep bikes together sacred to take the loss for the team. Generally this is hard to do in light of what we all know the parts will be worth to the next owner but living up to your principles often comes at some cost.   

  Back to the other side of the coin, it is also true that we can guess at ulterior motives and judge the actions of others but we have no way of actually living in another person’s brain to be able to truthfully say we _know_ the motives that drive them. It is possible that all the “helping the hobby” talk is subterfuge covering a primary profit motivation in one case and actually the primary motivation for another person who has offered a bike in parts. Unfortunately, as popular as judgementalism is, it never goes down well whether it fall square on target of is wildly off base.

  It is also obviously true that besides the futility of assigning motives as we see them to others, there would be almost no one in this hobby if it meant you could not amend a bike with parts from a fallen comrade, realistically more than 99% of the hobby is based on restoration and modification of incomplete original bikes. To that end the sellers are providing the fuel that keeps the Hobby lumbering along and to throw them out of the temple would turn this into a much smaller and different hobby.

  I don’t think taking up a cease fire on this subject is going to happen and I think that as a group this will continue to be one of the subjects that divide us and our hobby. Obviously we can only police our own actions when it comes to staying true to our principles but I can fully understand the desire and need of those who feel the hobby is being hurt by other people's actions to speak their mind on this topic or others that come up. 

  The challenge is not to resolve the issue, which is impossible, but to find a way to accept what is; which will probably only mean learning to live in the hobby under the barrage of all the lengthy diatribes on this subject. In the end, if you part bikes you will have to get a thick skin to the protests, if you are vocal about your belief they shouldn’t be parted, make sure your actions are in line with your beliefs.


----------



## Boris

Phil-
Your most recent essay on this subject gets the highest of marks. It's obvious that you have given the pros and cons of this argument much thought, and also because you were successfully able to hide any particular bias regarding the ethical dilemma that many of us find ourselves in at one time or another. I think you were very accurate in describing both the emotionalism and the non-emotionalism involved with parting out old bicycles. It's always good to be reminded how important it is to stick by our principles regardless of how difficult it is at times      ...or not. I guess that just depends on who you are.


----------



## RMS37

Thanks Dave, I don’t know if my post really takes the discussion anywhere new that we haven’t all considered already but I think over time I have realized that I am not so much on the fence regarding this issue (I don’t have that good of a sense of balance) but straddling the fence with a foot planted on either side. The amount of weight I put on either foot is based on the specifics of the individual situation rather than an overall controlling philosophy. I imagine most of us really do see things and act in that manner but somewhere in the middle ground, on a specific bike, the divisional line will appear and people will take sides.


----------



## bricycle

I understand both sides of this issue. Like what has already been said, there is NO right stand on this, it is all a simple matter of personal opinion. This Gentleman can do what ever he wants with his bike, yes, HIS bike. Bottom line is: If you choose to be upset by EITHER stand.....it is just that... It is YOUR choice.  YOU youself choose to be or not to be upset by everything you encounter.


----------



## slick

Not to stir the pot anymore but aren't these parts the same as any other Davis framed bike such as an HD bike/Indian?? I have a Davis frame that looks exactly identical to this one..
In my opinion, i think these parts will be completing other Davis framed bikes, not necessarily Chief bikes. If they were going on a Chief, i'm sure they would be skyrocketing in price. Or it just shows that there are not many Chiefs out there? And i think we all know where the badge is going....in a display case. I'm just saying......


----------



## RMS37

bricycle said:


> I understand both sides of this issue. Like what has already been said, there is NO right stand on this, it is all a simple matter of personal opinion. This Gentleman can do what ever he wants with his bike, yes, HIS bike. Bottom line is: If you choose to be upset by EITHER stand.....it is just that... It is YOUR choice.  YOU youself choose to be or not to be upset by everything you encounter.




  I think that trivializes the conflict somewhat. Once you are no longer upset by anything you encounter you are either a guru or dead.

  Much of the reason for the heated argument on this topic is that while there is not likely a higher power judging this toward the end of some refereed right or wrong, the action of parting bikes has real consequences (as would not having parted bikes to supply our perceived parts needs) and depending on how you regard those outcomes clearly can make the actions right or wrong with respect to your opinion and philosophical beliefs on the subject. 


  A person can stifle their feelings and chose not to voice their opinion or otherwise become involved in the debate around any issue but I don’t think it just comes down to choice about the having those underlying feelings and the emotions they generate when they exist on a level that is meaningful to us.

  This hot-button topic and the consequences, real or imagined, pale in comparison to many issues that are literally life and death issues but the mechanism that brings them to the surface is the same and very much a part of being human and meaningfully belonging in a society.


----------



## Freqman1

Whoa Phil I think I just hit a whole new level of consciousness!


----------



## Balloontyre

Thank you for the thoughtful reply's Phil, do consider a delay in punching in that card, there is a lot of contribution that would be missed.
 Perhaps a better choice of words in my last post should have been " why care" yes I care and likely most folks that read or comment care, and have a side of the issue they stand.
 Your right on in saying it's situational  many times in how a person would react to the parting of a nice old bike.

 What would more accurately describe my puzzlement is how this particular thread evolved after the seller identifies himself ( A CABE member) after seeing this thread about his ebay parts for sale.  The seller explains his reason the parts are being sold. Noble gesture on the sellers part I thought, since he does not owe an explanation to anyone. He was not soliciting opinions, simply explains his deal. Then the thread continues to trash and speculate. I guess that is what prompted my reply.

There is truth, that reciprocity and unspoken respectful behavior between collectors or hobbyists is commonly expected, no question.

Bicycle Bell, what a great handle and cleaver. Yes, collecting for preservation is among dozens of great reasons to enjoy old bikes. It is a hobby and every participant is right in the enjoyment of their hobby.  I personally operate from a students perspective to the bicycle hobby, and enjoy the details of history, mechanics, and construction relating to bikes. Hopefully at times I offer some useful contribution to fellow hobbyist, I certainly enjoy on topic technical discussion.
 This open forum public to the world discussion is new to me, and I don;t know exactly what protocol is acceptable. Just this topic of parting personal property and then being flogged after explanation and identification as a Cabe member confused me. Member = acceptance in my book.

It's great to have found this site from the perspective of learning and studying about old bikes, and meeting a few like minded people that dig old machines. 

Best,
Ivo


----------



## Gary Mc

Phil, Love your posts on this thread as you eloquently laid out the dilemmas of this heated subject.  I've had my say on my opinion so not going to repost it but I seriously think it's time for us all to move on and respect a decision a fellow member, miller32 made to part this bike whether we like the decision or not.  It was not the only "rare" bike parted out this week including on the CABE nor will it be the last so we are being very unfair to him.  Personally how I feel about the subject is my dilemma & my problem and one I will continue to struggle with, no one else's, certainly not miller32's.  Let's lay off him & move this discussion to General Discussion if necessary as miller32 obviously cares about this hobby as we all do.  This is my final 2 cents on this thread.


----------



## SirMike1983

RMS37 said:


> First of all;
> 
> The challenge is not to resolve the issue, which is impossible, but to find a way to accept what is; which will probably only mean learning to live in the hobby under the barrage of all the lengthy diatribes on this subject.




That is true- what usually happens is people offend/get offended/etc. It's not often people have their minds changed one way or the other by diatribes.


----------



## Boris

RMS37 said:


> This hot-button topic and the consequences, real or imagined, pale in comparison to many issues that are literally life and death issues but the mechanism that brings them to the surface is the same and very much a part of being human and meaningfully belonging in a society.





We're actually supposed to try to be aware of the role we as individuals play with regard to cause and effect? Indeed!


----------



## vincev

Dave,go finish your story in the Break Room.


----------



## 37fleetwood

There's no line, no list somewhere, but there are bikes that you part and ones you don't. let's see if we can get a feel for this. of course these are my feelings and are not binding upon anyone, but this may help.

1965 Schwinn middleweight in 7 condition...part it our if you like, they made so many that there are still tons more in 9-10 condition that can be found.
1937 Roadmaster Supreme in 4 condition...this one you can't part out, there simply aren't enough of them out there in original paint in any condition.
Teens Sears Cheif in any condition...there are only a very few of these out there. as I understand it, maybe fewer than half a dozen.

I understand that some of the parts are common to other bikes, but this one has the parts that destinguish it from other Davis bikes and though you could simply buy those parts for another Davis bike, somehow it seems a shame to part out an original to make some sort of morphodyte cobbled together bike when as you readily admit you're not making a killing on the parts, and it could have been sold whole for around the same money, and kept together. I'm not against parting out some bikes, let's just not part out the ones that shouldn't be parted out, that's all I'm getting at. some pretty simple common sense could be used in most cases. if there are only a few of the bike you have, please keep it together, if there are millions go ahead. if it's in between, weigh it out and ask yourself, "which would be better, parting this out, or keeping it whole?" "how many are out there and how nice is the one you have?" "are you parting one of the nicest originals of what you have?" "could you sell yours to someone trying to gather parts for one and let him or her part out the one they have been struggling to gather parts for that's basically pieced together junk?"

this kind of thing never makes sense to me! some time ago someone parted out a freshly and correctly restored 1936-37 Hawthorne Zep. I watched as people gobbled up the pieces they needeed for their cobbled together junk, and no one thought "why don't I just buy everything, and then sell my pieces. would have saved them a bunch of money and time. instead they now have a perfectly restored rack, or tank that they are just going to have repainted when they paint their bike. it doesn't make sense.


----------



## bike

*people that dont want bikes parted out*

should put their money where their mouth is.  BUY the bike at the parts price- Most people do not add for a bike that is mostly complete- they want a discount because they are buying a parts lot instead of individual parts. Simple economics seem to cause the owners choice in selling- most money wins. To bitch about it being parted and not willing to buy at parts price is just a lot of hot air. My 2c.


----------



## dfa242

I wonder if I might veer the discussion away from the main issue for a moment to the Chief head badge.  I've never seen one of these beauties in person and notice that the badge being sold by lipstick.wrenches retains what appears to be original paint, while the badge being offered by bicyclebones, formerly owned by Jerry Berg, is without paint.  Does anyone know which, or perhaps both? would be correct in original condition?  
Just wondering - thanks.


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## bricycle

I believe the very early ones had no enamel glaze.


----------



## Balloontyre

37fleetwood said:


> Teens Sears Cheif in any condition...there are only a very few of these out there. as I understand it, maybe fewer than half a dozen.




This is the 3rd different 1917-1919 Chief just this year, that I have seen come up for sale. Probably a coincidence ???  Although, I've been watching for them purposely. 

There are some good pics and info on the Chief in your catalog challenge thread that I posted, I also have 1919 available if any Cabe member is looking for some data.
I can email high res to anyone interested, just PM your address.

Head-badge clip is from 1917


----------



## bricycle

This is at least the sixth Chief I've seen here...I have one.


----------



## Balloontyre

bricycle said:


> This is at least the sixth Chief I've seen here...I have one.




Yes, the 3 I saw for sale this year were not available here on the Cabe, and if you count yours, make it 4 available this year, if your selling it that is.


----------



## Rust_Trader

bricycle said:


> This is at least the sixth Chief I've seen here...I have one.




Pictures I don't believe you, lol the one you have is nice.


----------



## bricycle

Anyone want to buy my trifecta ( Chief, Napoleon, Elginmoto, all same frame) Napoleon AND Elgin both have the coveted battery holder switched tanks!! all 3 with teacup lights! $3700 invested....$3300.00 pick-up only.


----------



## RMS37

Now that this thread has taken a turn I will note that the Chief is not a particularly rare bike and probably still exists in varying degrees of condition in Bluebird type numbers. Sears had a huge share of the market at that time and a lot of Chiefs were sold annually and they were available for several years with minor changes. In some ways they are the Colorflows of the early Moto era. Obviously there has been more water under the bridge since they were new so finding one in good shape and complete is a certainly challenge, on the other hand there are probably many rough frames and part bikes still in barns that could be restored...If only Stromberger would get off that nice late one he has and part it so others could live!


----------



## cyclingday

RMS37 said:


> Now that this thread has taken a turn I will note that the Chief is not a particularly rare bike and probably still exists in varying degrees of condition in Bluebird type numbers. Sears had a huge share of the market at that time and a lot of Chiefs were sold annually and they were available for several years with minor changes. In some ways they are the Colorflows of the early Moto era. Obviously there has been more water under the bridge since they were new so finding one in good shape and complete is a certainly challenge, on the other hand there are probably many rough frames and part bikes still in barns that could be restored...If only Stromberger would get off that nice late one he has and part it so others could live!




Since we are talking about rarity and the numbers of existing bikes. How many 1937 Roadmaster Supremes would you say exist in either original or redone condition?

As for the topic of this thread, my opinion is, that I am always looking to upgrade my bikes with better condition parts. If good condition bikes don't get parted out, then that doesn't happen.

Of course, I would always like to see the best bikes stay together, but unfortunately, those bike are already spoken for by veteran collectors. So, for most of us, we have to start with the best bike we can find, and then upgrade them from there. That's not a bad thing, because the education that goes along with that is priceless.

Thanks, goes out to all who have made parts available, that would otherwise not be available.

A special thanks goes out to the king of the part out. Bicyclebones. Danny V. has helped more people complete their dreams than anybody.

Now who's got a horizontal spring Lobdell saddle that they want to part with?


----------



## dfa242

bricycle said:


> Anyone want to buy my trifecta ( Chief, Napoleon, Elginmoto, all same frame) Napoleon AND Elgin both have the coveted battery holder switched tanks!! all 3 with teacup lights! $3700 invested....$3300.00 pick-up only.




Okay Bri, you're killin' me - show me some pics and I might just have to take a road trip


----------



## bricycle

dfa242 said:


> Okay Bri, you're killin' me - show me some pics and I might just have to take a road trip




PM me your e-mail Pal, bri.


----------



## slick

cyclingday said:


> Since we are talking about rarity and the numbers of existing bikes. How many 1937 Roadmaster Supremes would you say exist in either original or redone condition?
> 
> As for the topic of this thread, my opinion is, that I am always looking to upgrade my bikes with better condition parts. If good condition bikes don't get parted out, then that doesn't happen.
> 
> Of course, I would always like to see the best bikes stay together, but unfortunately, those bike are already spoken for by veteran collectors. So, for most of us, we have to start with the best bike we can find, and then upgrade them from there. That's not a bad thing, because the education that goes along with that is priceless.
> 
> Thanks, goes out to all who have made parts available, that would otherwise not be available.
> 
> A special thanks goes out to the king of the part out. Bicyclebones. Danny V. has helped more people complete their dreams than anybody.
> 
> Now who's got a horizontal spring Lobdell saddle that they want to part with?






Great post buddy! As far as the Roadmaster Supremes go, i'd have to say about a dozen i think? I have collected quite a few pictures of them from the internet in all forms of restored to original. Let me count exactly and get back to you. 

As far as the Lobdell seat goes, take a number. HAHA!! WE are all in that line. I have 3 currently but need 2 more for my last 2 Shelbys. I know, i know, Lobdell hoarder! LOL!! But they are all on bikes right now. Oh and 3 girls ones also. 2 are on bikes and one spare now. HAHA! But back to the "take a number" I think we are now serving number 3 or 4 that have popped up for sale in the last few months and you are number 20 or so on the number list i think? I know of at least 7 other guys personally plus you now that want one also. Maybe someone should repop them? Oh another fact about those are that the seatposts are different from boys to girls. Also to fit one on Karla's Suprmeme i had to make a sheetmetal shim to take up the slop in the seatube. FUN!! But they ride killer!! Better than any other seat i sat on.


----------



## creebobby

*Sears Chief End Game*

I was sorry to see the more abusive tone this thread took for a bit there - sorry if I added gas to the fire and thanks to those who brought the discussion back to thoughtful civility.

It's time to see how this thing plays out!

All auctions are ending today.

So far:

Frame  172 to B***3
Seat    460 to B***3 - holy moly!

It looks like somebody's fighting (and they mean business) for the complete bike!
A hero has stepped out from the shadows . . . will they prevail?
It might be a rough ride for them.

I bid on the frame but lost and now I'm going to back off and let B***3 go the distance.

It would be charitable if others did the same, though I doubt many will


----------



## bike

*Parting out ........*

Is king!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## cyclingday

slick said:


> Great post buddy! As far as the Roadmaster Supremes go, i'd have to say about a dozen i think? I have collected quite a few pictures of them from the internet in all forms of restored to original. Let me count exactly and get back to you.
> 
> As far as the Lobdell seat goes, take a number. HAHA!! WE are all in that line. I have 3 currently but need 2 more for my last 2 Shelbys. I know, i know, Lobdell hoarder! LOL!! But they are all on bikes right now. Oh and 3 girls ones also. 2 are on bikes and one spare now. HAHA! But back to the "take a number" I think we are now serving number 3 or 4 that have popped up for sale in the last few months and you are number 20 or so on the number list i think? I know of at least 7 other guys personally plus you now that want one also. Maybe someone should repop them? Oh another fact about those are that the seatposts are different from boys to girls. Also to fit one on Karla's Suprmeme i had to make a sheetmetal shim to take up the slop in the seatube. FUN!! But they ride killer!! Better than any other seat i sat on.




Number 20 seemed like a long way back in line, so I just took cuts and picked up the Horizontal spring Lobdell that popped up in the buy/sell/trade forum.

It needs a re cover. but at least it's still in original condition and the chassis looks to be in good shape.


----------



## npence

Glad to see you got it Marty but you are lucky I had to go to church tonight and guy selling it couldn't wait an hour for me to confirm our deal. So I guess god didn't want me to have it. Maybe next time


----------



## cyclingday

npence said:


> Glad to see you got it Marty but you are lucky I had to go to church tonight and guy selling it couldn't wait an hour for me to confirm our deal. So I guess god didn't want me to have it. Maybe next time




The Lord works in mysterious ways!


----------



## creebobby

What's happening with the eBay Chief auctions?

Rear wheel for $765?

Is that legit?

I am now a bit shocked . . .


----------



## scrubbinrims

creebobby said:


> What's happening with the eBay Chief auctions?
> 
> Rear wheel for $765?
> 
> Is that legit?
> 
> I am now a bit shocked . . .




x2
That's ridiculous and not sure if I am more shocked by that price or the fact that the valve caps didn't appear in a separate auction for the welfare of mankind.
Chris


----------



## bike

*PARTING IS KING contiuned....*

766+460+426+406+359+284+232+173+152+125+82+78+66+32=

$$$3641! (rounded+postage) NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THAT FOR THE BIKE- could buy a nice chief for that!
I personally have seen over a dozen chiefs in various states from rustbuckt to mint. These prices are wild- like to see the motorbikes getting the attention they deserve- that crusty HD only went to about 1800 res not met- mebbe part it out? 

Did anyone check to see if one brave bidder got most or all of it? I was too tired to do it- need a kickstand I guess.


----------



## creebobby

Misc. Pedal parts   i***e    33
Seat Post              u***b   79
Rear Fender          s***h    126 
Rear Fender          h***j   233 
Front Wheel          d***d    83
Front Fork             b***3  284
Rear Wheel           d***d   766
Handlebars           b***3    153
Stem                   b***3      66
Headbadge           b***3     359
Crank                   b***3     406
Seat                     b***3     460
Frame                  b***3     173
Dropstand             h***j      427


----------



## creebobby

Bill for b***3 for 2/3 of the bike = 1,901
Auction totals for everything = 3,648 before shipping.

Bike split up six ways.

I am more than shocked.
I am horrified.

Were all those bids really placed in earnest?
Something seems very not right.


----------



## bricycle

...Gee, maybe I'll part mine out.............................................................................(Just kidding)


----------



## willswares1220

*Chief parts $$$$$$$$$$ ????????? Wow !!!!!!!!!!!*

I've been thinking the same about my "CHIEF" $$$$$$$$$$ !!!!!! parts parts parts !!!!! $$$$$$$$

I will not because I like the bike too much in my collection and only need that CHIEF SCRIPT SEAT to complete it, 
otherwise it's all there including the bar mounted shifter with three speed rear hub, CHIEF script pedal rubbers and in much better original paint condition than the one sold. It would be very sad to part it out !!!!

       &


----------



## hoofhearted

Don't know how to place a bid on e-b .. and i don't wanna know.  Had a good friend place a snipe on that 1915 thru 
1916, Davis-built, Sear's, Roebuck & Co., CHIEF BICYCLE DROPSTAND.  $420 bucks plus $23.50 postage would not 
win the stand.  A higher bid would take the prize.  Was i unhappy with the outcome ??  Not at all.  The winner may 
need that stand for her/his ride.  With me,  it's a simple, rescue operation.  Really respect the products designed and 
manufactured by The Davis Sewing Machine Co. ... 1892 thru 1922.  Some 1922 leftover models were sold in 1923 
and 1924 ... but they were 1922 models.  Someone recently purchased an original 1924 Walthour and Hood Bicycle 
catalogue featuring a ton of Davis products ... in fact, this catalogue has a magna-bunch of bicycle AND motorcycle 
goodies from many manufacturers.  Makes that 1938 Island catalogue look like one-ply toilet paper ........... 
not a fave of mine.


THERE ARE FOUR THINGS regarding "many things bicycle" that i do collect:  exotic badges .. exotic forks (also did not 
win that Chief fork) .. exotic chainrings and exotic dropstands.  Somehow have also acquired about ten exotic bicycles 
... from a 24-inch wheel, 1901 Indian Special-Racer .. to a 1935 balloon,Shelby-built, non-streamline tanker, badged 
KING B  (not Bee) featuring the tiniest badge i have ever seen .. 'bout an inch and a fourth tall .. and on that badge ... 
a Honey Bee ... the design reminiscent of late-19th century graphics.  This ride is my only sheet-metal bicycle.


HAD A SNIPER-BID PLACED FOR me on the Chief Fork, as well.  The winner won the fork, and my bid of $125 was 
meant to win it. The winning bid was $284 plus postage.  Happy that fork went to a WINNER lookin' for a great fork 
..... not a WHINER saying ......


"Golly, I woulda offered around eight-hunderd fer that whole bicycle .. if i had the money !!" ... OR ... "GEEZ .......... 
ain't it a pity another fine, and dandy .. rare .. desirable .. antique bicycle got parted out !!"  


IN A PAY TO PLAY GAME ... call the seller and ask IF SOME SERIOUS MONEY WOULD BUY THE UNIT ...... go ahead 
and offer a big chunk of American Cash ... way more than you ever thought you would ever offer.  BE BOLD WHEN 
YOU WANT TO OWN.  And when you can't afford to play ... STEP OFF !!!    


When the seller's decision is made to part the unit ... you can say, "Well, at least I tried."


IF YOU HAVE NOT TRIED TO RESCUE A GOOD OLD HORSE FROM THE GLUE FACTORY ... don't be bitchin' 
about how expensive glue has been, lately !!


MANY FOLKS HAVE ASKED, Say, does patric ever sell anything ?"  Sure do.  And when i do .. i sell it for 
what i have in it.  Now i must give fair warning ... when i bid on a badge, i bid to own.  This translates to ... 
if you wanna own a badge 'o mine ... get a bunch of $$$ ready .. cause that's what i had to do to grab the 
badge in the first place.  As i rarely sell badges .. they are THE Number-One Item that is desired by this 
collector.  My collection does not have common or ordinary stuff in it.  Not braggin' here ... savin' you $$$ 
and time, if you were to call, askin' if i have the usual stuff found on ebay in the past five years.  


DIDJA KNOW THERE IS ANOTHER CHIEF badge on ebay right now ??!  Bicyclebones has the EARLIEST 
VARIETY of Chief badge (identical to the one in recent Chief auction) on a buy it now (i believe) for $275 ... 
THIS BADGE IS IN PERFECT CONDITION !!! 


This badge was in my collection until 2007 when it was sold to JERRY B. for $100.  The badge also has ZERO 
GLASS ... beautiful as is on a Chief Bicycle OR send it to Nostalgic Reflections in Veradale, Washington.  Jerry 
Turner knows a lot regarding a CHAMPLEVE badge ... he has the capacity to backfill the glass-sand (enamel) .. 
fire each color seperately (each color flows at a different temp ... high-temp colors applied first .. lower-temp 
colors applied last).  The Chief badge selling in yesterday's auction features a lot of broken backfill.  The winner 
has the choice of leaving it "as-is" ... removing the glass altogether .. or getting the whole badge restored in 
the only, correct manner to restore a CHAMPLEVE badge ... do it in the exact same manner in which it was 
originally done.  THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE.


SO, WHY DID i SELL my Earliest Chief Badge for a hundred bucks ??  Because i acquired ALL THREE VARIETIES 
of Chief badges ... each having 100% Glass Backfill ... no scratches or dings .. no reproductions.  Each was sold 
to me with no bicycle in sight.Only the badges were offered to me.  If a bicycle was attached to the badge, and i 
HAD to have the badge .. i would also buy the bicycle.  This writer will not peel a badge.  But .. i DO NOT have 
a problem with you peelin' whatever it is that you peel.


  patric cafaro

hoofhearted121@yahoo.com

  1-937-879-0861  6 a.m. EST --- 8:59 p.m. EST


----------



## dave the wave

i always liked the Sears "Chief" bicycle. i own 3 of them.one has a Shaw motor.that's the way i found it.


----------



## hoofhearted

*NUMBERS under Chief Hanger Bracket*

DAVE THE WAVE ... thank you for posting pics of your Chiefs ..... when you get time .. would you please 
shoot us some pics of the numbers ON THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE HANGER BRACKET ... lookin' to see if 
there is a single number all by itself ... away from serial numbers .... Thank you .. DAVE !!!!! ...... patric


----------



## willswares1220

*Sears  " Chief "*

NICE BIKES!

And thanks for sharing the photo's....


----------



## bikewhorder

Geez, I guess the economy is all fixed and i didn't get the memo, It seems like everything I've been watching on Ebay has been going for a shocking amount of $$$$.   Ive just about given up on the auctions, I think your better off just trying to cherry pick the BIN's from sellers who also didn't get the memo.


----------



## dave the wave

here's the serial nums. bike with sided fenders E on top 113571 3-speed bike 11217? the last one is my Davis made nonparell D 663139


----------



## SirMike1983

Nice bikes. I really love the old names for some of these, like "Napoleon", "Chief", and "Non Pareil". It sounds a lot better to me than some of the stuff today, like "Westwind Comfort" etc. Westwind Comfort sounds like a laxative.


----------



## dave the wave

*Shaw Chief*

here ya go


----------



## bricycle

...Put me in your will.......


----------



## rustyspoke66

That thing is killer!


----------



## bike

*awesome*

Toasty Shaw!


----------



## miller32

I think it is only fair to keep everyone informed on the ending of the Chief bicycle parts.  I am also pretty amazed at the many bids these parts brought.  But also remember....nothing is finalized until final payments are received.  I think everyone likes to know how auctions truly end.  I have gotten confirmed payments for the misc. parts (which were the pedal parts and more) and I have received payment for the seat post.  The front and back wheels were won by one bidder and the kickstand and the front fender were won by another.  I have not gotten payment yet....but the auctions only ended yesterday...so there is time.  The rear fender was won by someone in Canada and I am getting shipping amount for that gentleman on Monday.  As for the big bidder...that got 2/3 of the bike's parts...well...he decided he wanted to back out of the deal.  I am not going to bad mouth anyone for their decisions...and even though I was frustrated and mad....he was honest enough to contact me and let me know that he would like to end the transactions.  We settled it in a polite way and he was *extremely* thankful for me letting him out of the transactions.  So pushing on from that....everything he bid on is obviously up for grabs again.  I am glad to see the thread going in a more positive way... 

Seat Post....Confirmed SOLD
Misc. Parts...Confirmed SOLD
Front and Rear Wheels....Waiting for Payment
Kick-Stand and Front Fender....Confirmed SOLD
Rear Fender.....Going to Canada...getting shipping price on Monday
Chief Seat.....Pending
Chief Headbadge....Available
Chief Forks.....Available
Chief Handlebars...SOLD
Chief Handlebar Stem...Available
Chief Sprocket...Available
Chief Frame...Available


----------



## miller32

Chief Handlebars now----SOLD!
Chief Seat----PENDING PAYMENT!


----------



## Freqman1

Personally I wish you would dime out the deadbeat so I could block that person from bidding on any of my auctions. I had a rash of deadbeat bidders late last year and it is frustrating and costs me time and money--neither of which I have a lot of! Please feel free to PM me the user name. People have to realize that when they place a bid it is a legal and binding agreement not some game. Ok I'm done venting-for now. V/r Shawn


----------



## bike

*I second this*



Freqman1 said:


> Personally I wish you would dime out the deadbeat so I could block that person from bidding on any of my auctions. I had a rash of deadbeat bidders late last year and it is frustrating and costs me time and money--neither of which I have a lot of! Please feel free to PM me the user name. People have to realize that when they place a bid it is a legal and binding agreement not some game. Ok I'm done venting-for now. V/r Shawn




Too many people messing with my posts/auctions.
-pg


----------



## dfa242

Same here - please PM me with the deadbeat bidder's ebay name so I can add them to my blocked bidder list.  These folks get away with far too many shenanigans on ebay.



bike said:


> Too many people messing with my posts/auctions.
> -pg


----------



## cyclingday

Freqman1 said:


> Personally I wish you would dime out the deadbeat so I could block that person from bidding on any of my auctions. I had a rash of deadbeat bidders late last year and it is frustrating and costs me time and money--neither of which I have a lot of! Please feel free to PM me the user name. People have to realize that when they place a bid it is a legal and binding agreement not some game. Ok I'm done venting-for now. V/r Shawn




I agree as well. Because of this bonehead, the price of everything else was drastically affected.
Either, there was some shill bidding going on, or some idiot out in TV land was having a real good laugh at other peoples expense. 
Put this kook to shame and publicly identify him.


----------



## miller32

This thread began to take a happy note...and now it is veering off track.  Sellers on Ebay ....pretty much they are at the buyer's mercy.  We as sellers cannot leave negative feedback and usually with bad bidders...they vanish shortly after their last bid with no communication and then you file a case...and wait.  There is no need to take this thread back in a negative direction.  The bidder on my parts said he wanted to back out of the transactions after his last bid.  Why did he keep bidding after he lost one of the auctions...I do not know...but I was frustrated/mad by his actions when I found out he wanted to back out of everything when it was all over.  He is out of California and he was at least kind enough to not vanish on me and be up front about wanting to get out of the transactions.  I looked at his bid history...he has over 750 positive feedbacks and seems to be a collector of bicycles and also sells bike parts on ebay.  We talked back and forth somewhat kindly after he wanted to cancel...he is a real person....he just should have stopped after he knew he wasn't getting all the parts...rather than having me end those 7 transactions.  This is not the only non payer I have had....and I get frustrated like everyone else.  Ebay should give sellers a little more rights...especially in the negative feedback area.  I was probably too nice...but I rather just bite my tongue and try to move on.  I have had cases against some non paying bidders who never got with me especially after I have emailed them several times...but this guy got with me right away and begged me to understand his position.  I try to be honest and only hope that people bidding on anything I might have...be honest too....!  Too nice...I guess???


----------



## Nickinator

Sounds like the bidder I had on some parts a while back, from CA, very apologetic, but said since he'd end up returning the parts if I shipped them anyway, I might as well just save us both some time and $....I got the feeling this wasn't the first time he'd done this. 

We find one of the great advantages of being active in the CABE community is that the knowledge we gain from other members, not only regarding info on the bicycles themselves, but on buyers (and sellers) who act irresponsibly, or fraudulently.  

Darcie


----------



## cyclingday

Nickinator said:


> Sounds like the bidder I had on some parts a while back, from CA, very apologetic, but said since he'd end up returning the parts if I shipped them anyway, I might as well just save us both some time and $....I got the feeling this wasn't the first time he'd done this.
> 
> We find one of the great advantages of being active in the CABE community is that the knowledge we gain from other members, not only regarding info on the bicycles themselves, but on buyers (and sellers) who act irresponsibly, or fraudulently.
> 
> Darcie




 Oh,That's great!
 You bid up a storm on someones stuff, then you tell them not to bother shipping it out, because you're not going to pay for it, and it'll just get sent back.

 In the famous words of Andrew Dice Clay,   Unfricken Believable!


----------



## pelletman

Outing this guy is the only reasonable thing to do here.  Sounds like this is a habitual thing for him.


----------



## dave the wave

*1918 sears catalog on ebay*

here's some great catalog pics. with great color. i also have that master model too.


----------



## chitown

Who built the frames for Chiefs and the other Sears models?

Thanks,
Chris

Wouldn't mind a separate thread at this point with Chief info, unless someone has a link to one that was previously posted on thecabe.com


----------



## dave the wave

The Davis Sewing Machine Company


----------



## bud poe

*Thank you for posting those catalog pages!  
I picked up a Victor frame-set a year ago and was always curious about it's origins.  It came without wheels, only a Sturmey Archer 3spd model S rear hub.  I was this close to selling the hub (figuring I'd never find the right bike for it, probably not gonna stumble across a Chief anytime soon) because I didn't think it correct for the frame.  Now, seeing this, it seems likely they might have outfitted the Victor with a 3 speed, huh?
Anyone got any close-ups of the Victor, like a side view?  *
*My apologies to Bricycle for dangling the 3spd hub in front of his face, only to pull it back...Sorry Bro-Bri...
Also, sorry for hi-jacking the thread....*


----------



## Gary Mc

chitown said:


> Wouldn't mind a separate thread at this point with Chief info, unless someone has a link to one that was previously posted on thecabe.com




I agree with Chris, we need a thread on Chiefs, this is a great bike and a lot of great info has been shared in this thread which means the thread did turn into a positive.


----------



## dave the wave

*1919 Yale*

lets keep these Davis bikes showing. serial num. 9 497644 i believe they offered this frame style in a H-D model Motorcyke ?


----------



## bricycle

bud poe said:


> *Thank you for posting those catalog pages!
> I picked up a Victor frame-set a year ago and was always curious about it's origins.  It came without wheels, only a Sturmey Archer 3spd model S rear hub.  I was this close to selling the hub (figuring I'd never find the right bike for it, probably not gonna stumble across a Chief anytime soon) because I didn't think it correct for the frame.  Now, seeing this, it seems likely they might have outfitted the Victor with a 3 speed, huh?
> Anyone got any close-ups of the Victor, like a side view?  *
> *My apologies to Bricycle for dangling the 3spd hub in front of his face, only to pull it back...Sorry Bro-Bri...
> Also, sorry for hi-jacking the thread....*




...he did dangle it too.......


----------



## dave the wave

bud poe said:


> *Thank you for posting those catalog pages!
> I picked up a Victor frame-set a year ago and was always curious about it's origins.  It came without wheels, only a Sturmey Archer 3spd model S rear hub.  I was this close to selling the hub (figuring I'd never find the right bike for it, probably not gonna stumble across a Chief anytime soon) because I didn't think it correct for the frame.  Now, seeing this, it seems likely they might have outfitted the Victor with a 3 speed, huh?
> Anyone got any close-ups of the Victor, like a side view?  *
> *My apologies to Bricycle for dangling the 3spd hub in front of his face, only to pull it back...Sorry Bro-Bri...
> Also, sorry for hi-jacking the thread....*




yes they did offer it as a option.


----------



## bud poe

Thank you for confirming!
Perhaps it's time to start that separate thread?


----------



## bricycle

Dave, thanks for sharing the illustrations/info.


----------



## hoofhearted

DAVE THE WAVE ... thank you for posting fotos and pics ... one of the more-important pics you've posted is the bottom of the crank 
hanger on your Davis YALE.  The serial number ... running in the same line as the the tires .. on edge of crank cups .. north/south ..... 
however the reader interprets the PLACEMENT OF THE SERIAL NUMBERS ... marks this bicycle as a Davis-Built.  That extra numeral .. 
in this case a "9" ...... indicate the MODEL YEAR of your YALE ... 1919... not the year it was made. Always good to talk with you, DAVE 
....... enjoyed our conversation last week !!! 

Post Script,  for one reason or another .. your fine collection of Davis-Built Sear's Chief Bicycles, does not follow the same 
Model-Year Number Rules .... thanks again for clarifying for me ... that NO MODEL-YEAR NUMBER IS VISIBLE on any of 
your Chief bicycles.   Maybe just a Sear's thing .... Butt-Hoo-Nose ???!!

patric cafaro


----------



## dfa242

You bring up an interesting point regarding placement of Davis-built serial numbers and I'd like to get your perspective on my Napoleon - wondering what the D signifies?  Thanks.


----------



## bricycle

Probably stands for "Davis " built...     That is a GREAT photo!!!


----------



## hoofhearted

dfa242 ... first, allow me to compliment you and your finely-composed foto of your Davis NAPOLEON bicycle in an approriate setting.  Somewhere within the development of this thread ... believe it to be memo #85 from DAVE THE WAVE ... are a selection of fotos from DAVE ... he shows the bottom of the crank-hanger of a Davis CHIEF and a NON-PAREIL having NO MODEL-YEAR NUMBER (just above the serial numbers).  Now, if we fast forward to memo #106 in this thread, DAVE features pics of his 1919 Davis YALE.  This YALE clearly displays the 9 ... in the place where the Model-Year Number would be on a Davis ride.

HAVING STUDIED DAVIS RIDES for over 25 years .. and this certainly does not qualify this writer to be an expert on Davis bicycles ... my eyes have seen many, many variations within a particular model AND within the area of the serial numbers (letters).  Much more research is necessary to form a valid conclusion regarding that letter D just above the serial number on your Napoleon. 

BUT ... JUST FOR TODAY ... am gonna say ... it's a Sear's thing.

                                                                                                                         patric cafaro


----------



## chitown

Patric,

Thank you posting.

I did have a question about Davis Sewing Machine Company. Fellow CABE member Balloontyre posted in a thread regarding his Mead that had "Lewis" rims. He posted an article on The Dayton Rolled Metal Co that mentioned Lyman B Gould as part of the firm coming from the Chicago Branch of the Davis Sewing Machine Co. Do you have any info on if this plant may have made bicycles also. If so maybe some of the letter stampings indicate which plant it was made in???

View attachment 62702

Thanks for posting here and sharing your knowledge on Davis made bikes.

Chris


----------



## Balloontyre

*Hoofhearted is the  Godfather*

Chris , that Lewis article originated from Patric.
Thanks a million point two ( adjusted for inflation) Patric.
Ivo


----------



## chitown

Balloontyre said:


> Chris , that Lewis article originated from Patric.
> Thanks a million point two ( adjusted for inflation) Patric.
> Ivo




LOL 

Thanks, I was going to be heading to the Chicago Public Library downtown this week on my day off to see if I can uncover more info on the Chicago Davis plant there but figured I'd ask the experts first.


----------



## dfa242

Thanks very much - I can live it being a Sears thing.  Just hadn't seen that before.




hoofhearted said:


> dfa242 ... first, allow me to compliment you and your finely-composed foto of your Davis NAPOLEON bicycle in an approriate setting.  Somewhere within the development of this thread ... believe it to be memo #85 from DAVE THE WAVE ... are a selection of fotos from DAVE ... he shows the bottom of the crank-hanger of a Davis CHIEF and a NON-PAREIL having NO MODEL-YEAR NUMBER (just above the serial numbers).  Now, if we fast forward to memo #106 in this thread, DAVE features pics of his 1919 Davis YALE.  This YALE clearly displays the 9 ... in the place where the Model-Year Number would be on a Davis ride.
> 
> HAVING STUDIED DAVIS RIDES for over 25 years .. and this certainly does not qualify this writer to be an expert on Davis bicycles ... my eyes have seen many, many variations within a particular model AND within the area of the serial numbers (letters).  Much more research is necessary to form a valid conclusion regarding that letter D just above the serial number on your Napoleon.
> 
> BUT ... JUST FOR TODAY ... am gonna say ... it's a Sear's thing.
> 
> 
> patric cafaro


----------



## hoofhearted

HEY TO CHITOWN .. and a Magna-Hey to my budz, IVO ... look .. am tryin' to respond to chitown in a somewhat-scholarly manner .. but a couple of 
issues get in the way ... first, i am not nearly as scholarly as i appear in real life (har, har) ... and second .. i still do not have the knowledge it takes 
to find or operate the "Save As A Draft" button or lever.  HOLY CRAP, i get frustrated when typing .. and need that "save" ability when doing cross-
referencing.  Am paranoid that i will click on one of those in-color little circles that says "i like French doilies !!" .. or .. that yellow one featuring two 
dots .. one left and one right ... both placed over a curved line .. sometimes the curved line is lower than the beginning and end of the line .....
 sometimes the curved line is taller than the beginning and end.

HERE WE GO .. chitown ... when Davis folded in 1923 ... yes, Davis continue to sell bicycles that had been manufactured in 1922, and earlier, as leftover models ... ( a recent Harley-Davidson, member-publication indicates that a SUIT from H-D had to make a personal appearance at the Davis Plant to force Davis to stop producing and marketing H-D bicycles .. long after H-D had stopped marketing their bicycle .. the actual model-year run of H-D bicycles was 1917 thru 1921) ... H.M. Huffman, Sr., was out of a job.   Davis Sewing Machine Co. gave Huffman, Sr. the job of liquidating the entire Davis, mechanical-holdings ... Shelby Cycle Co. purchased the lion's share of the parts and bicycles.

Mr. HUFFMAN, Sr., AND a Mr. George S. Lewis, Vice-President of the Mead Cycle Co., in Chicago, AND a Mr. Lyman B. Gould, formerly Chicago Branch Manager of The Davis Sewing Machine Co., ...got together in a business way to form The Dayton Rolled Metal Co.

NOW IS A REALLY GOOD TIME FOR THE READER TO REVIEW THAT SEPTEMBER 1925 ARTICLE that chitown has attached to his very-recently placed response to this thread ... in which chitown asks, "Do you have any info on if this plant (Chicago Branch of Davis Sewing Machine Co.) may have made bicycles also.  If so maybe some of the letter stampings indicate which plant it was made in ???"

CHITOWN ... that is a GREAT QUESTION ... one that i cannot answer.  It's very-probable that you could enlighten me and the rest of the readers 
by doing a little digging in Chicago.  FAIR WARNING ... do not begin your quest with a visit to Al Capone's Vault.


MY THOUGHTS ON THE CHICAGO BRANCH of the Davis Co. are as follows ...... the Chicago Branch of Davis may have been a corner room ,(complete with bay windows) 
on the third-floor, in a six-dollar-a-week hotel room ... containing a bed, bathroom, closet and small desk .. supporting an oscillating electric fan, a coffee maker, a tela-fone, a halfa cuppa coffee, an ashtray filled to capacity with five-cent White Owl Cigar butts, and a hot-plate.  Within the top-front drawer of the desk could be found all of the business-paraphernalia needed to sell bicycles.  The upper right-hand drawer contents included an opened bottle of bootleg rum, nickel-plated S&W .38 revolver, a leather blackjack and a package of Sen-Sen.

i could be wrong.

patric cafaro


post script ... IVO ... pics of Gangsta Mead .. please !!?


----------



## Balloontyre

hoofhearted said:


> IVO ... pics of Gangsta Mead .. please !!?




Great info that you write, as always, Sent a PM with link to Mead thread.


----------



## chitown

hoofhearted said:


> .... the Chicago Branch of Davis may have been a corner room ,(complete with bay windows)
> on the third-floor, in a six-dollar-a-week hotel room ... containing a bed, bathroom, closet and small desk .. supporting an oscillating electric fan, a coffee maker, a tela-fone, a halfa cuppa coffee, an ashtray filled to capacity with five-cent White Owl Cigar butts, and a hot-plate.  Within the top-front drawer of the desk could be found all of the business-paraphernalia needed to sell bicycles.  The upper right-hand drawer contents included an opened bottle of bootleg rum, nickel-plated S&W .38 revolver, a leather blackjack and a package of Sen-Sen.




I think I know the place you are talking about...

View attachment 62734


----------



## dave the wave

*more Davis bikes*

here ya go Master 1917 serial num. 7 17073


----------



## dave the wave

*Arrow*

Arrow 1916 serial num. 6 334062


----------



## catfish

dave the wave said:


> here ya go Master 1917 serial num. 7 17073




Love the Master badge!  I need one if anyone has one for sale.....  Catfish


----------



## hoofhearted

DAVE THE WAVE ... thank you for posting these recent Davis pics showing the Model-Year Number just above the serial number on the hanger.

AND ... Chitown ... you nailed the place i was referring to .. Elwood"s Place ...thank you for posting the pic of Jake and Elwood .. at Elwood's place. 

ALL .. i am looking for a JESUS IMAGE IN A HORSEHOE.  Elwood has the best one i've ever seen ... on the door of his rather-small icebox, behind him.


patric


----------



## ejlwheels

*the Lester*

Does anyone know anything about a Davis made Lester hub?
I'm looking for parts...


----------



## SirMike1983

Nice bikes.

A question about moto frame size- I see some bikes with one top tube going into the steerer, then some with one going into the joint between the down and the steerer, and then some with the lower top tube going only into the down tube. I'm talking here about both Sears and later Elgin bikes from, say 1915 through 1933. Does anyone know what size differences exist in these frames? Some look taller than others, but I'm not aware of what the actual size difference might be.


----------



## hoofhearted

*The LESTER Brake and Motorbike frame size methods of the teens-early'30's*

AM GOING TO ANSWER TWO QUESTIONS WITH ONE MEMO.

ejlwheels ...... The LESTER Brake was a development of C. Lester Coleman, an engineer and perhaps a Manager of Yet-To-Be Discovered 
Hardware Necessities within The Davis Sewing Machine Co.  His Coaster Brake, The LESTER, was a development of the post-1898 thru maybe 
the early-teens.  Davis was sued by New Departure when The LESTER was found to have similar design/function appearances.  During the 
period of 1910-1912 (very-fuzzy dates), ND requested a complete-brake sample be parcelled to them, from every coaster brake-manufacturer
in this country, and perhaps others.  ND won the court case.  So, what happened to all of the already-manufactured, pre-court case LESTERs ?? 
Much more research is indicated before that question can be answered.

THIS WRITER HAS OWNED maybe a half-dozen Lester, coaster brakes, in various conditions of wear or completeness.  The koolest one being 
a factory-boxed (having box wear) 36-spoke, uncirculated speciman.  This LESTER was wrapped in two sheets of gift-quality, tissue, wrapping 
paper ... one sheet being red .. one sheet being green.  These sheets perfectly-matched the white box, and attendant graphics presented in 
red, green and black.  Am in possession of NO SPARE PARTS .. not being snubbish, just don't own any.

NOW FOR THE Motorbike Frame Size Methods.

SirMike1983 ...... beginning hoo-nose-when,  the diamond-frame was measured for frame size by learning the distance from the center of the 
crank to the very-top of the seat-mast, where the top-bar meets the seat-mast

THE MOTORBIKE FRAME was measured differently.  An early-teens thru early 30's ride with two top-bars is generally-referred to as a MOTORBIKE.  
Generally, the motorbike-frame mirrored the motorcycle-frame ... get the pilot outta the wind, thereby decreasing drag .. by lowering the pilot-
vicinity of the top bar.  Toss in a secondary top bar (some call this the "undertank-bar") for frame strength.  This 2-bar area ... just ahead of the 
pilot ... also made a great place to hide the fuel-tank.

LETTUCE BREATHE DEEP and look away, for a moment.  Many an early motorbike or early motorcycle DID NOT HAVE A DROPPING TOP BAR ... but 
most did have a secondary (undertank) top bar. Think Flying Merkel.  Also .. allow your mind to suspend restrictions to your belief systems.  The 
rest of this diatribe is filled with a lotta flip-flop .. confusing presentation .. and possibly a Wall Of Voodoo.

SirMike1983 .. your question asks more than a few things ... you are wondering about the placement of the secondary (undertank) top bar AND, 
the WHERE IT IS PLACED ASPECT within the motorbike frame.  As you have indicated .. the undertank bar has been observed attaching at its frontal 
end ... to the steer-tube ... OR .. the junction of the steer-tube and down-tube .. OR .. onto the upper-section of the down-tube.  This placement is 
really a combination of Artistic-License AND Engineering-License.

JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING LOOKS BETTER .. does not mean it works better.  The form of many multi-piece items are designed with great respect to 
what the item is intended to do ... you know ... Form Follows Function.  Many motorbike frames of the period were beautiful to behold.  Some were not.

THE EARLY MOTORBIKE WAS MOST-OFTEN MEASURED from the center of the crank, to the very-top of the seat-mast, where the top-bar meets the 
seat-mast ... HOWEVER .. we are talkin' Drop-Bar Motorbike here .......... well ... WHY is this writer repeating the method of finding the frame measure 
of a Diamond-Frame bicycle ???  BECAUSE many of the early manufacturers were unsure HOW to measure a motorbike .. so they relied on tried-and-true 
methods ... these folks measured the motorbike frame ... extending an imaginary-line .. past the "area of the dropped bar" .. to where the top-bar would 
meet the very top of the seat-mast ... AS IF THE TOP BAR WAS NOT "DROPPED", BUT WAS STRAIGHT.  

IN THE REAL WORLD ... back in the day ...  shunning that method of measurement ... the ACTUAL, PHYSICAL MEASURE from center of crank to where the 
drop-bar meets the very-top of the seat mast might be 18-inches ... but, the manufacturers still called (what you and i would call an 18-inch) .. "a 20-inch".

ONE OR MORE OF THE H-D BICYCLE CATALOGUES (1917 thru 1921) addresses this issue.  In addition, many manufacturers eventually began referring to 
what you and i would call an 18-inch (actual measure) an 18/20 frame size (short) ... or a 20/22 frame size (medium) ... or a 22/24 frame size (tall).

IN CLOSING ... FYI ... H-D made frames in short .. medium .. and tall ... ONLY IN 1917 and 1918.  1919 thru 1921 H-D Bicycles were made only in short 
and medium.  

ALONG THESE SAME paths of thought ... the 18/20 frame would have a headtube being 3-inches (+/-).  The 20/22 frame would have a headtube being 5-
inches (+/-).  The 22/24 frame would have a headtube being 7-inches (+/-).


patric cafaro


----------



## bike

*dont know if this has been posted- but a proper photo of a great orig Chief- prob the*

best




Just a photo in my colletion of pix- I wish I had the bike!


----------



## bricycle

...now THAT'S purdy!!!!!!


----------



## Gary Mc

bricycle said:


> ...now THAT'S purdy!!!!!!




Completely agree!!!!!!!!


----------



## hoofhearted

ejlwheels ... NIB LESTER HUB NOW ON EBAY ....... FYI .... if i knew how to cut and paste i would ... 
Am posting pics for the good of the order.

..........  patric

ALL ....... PLEASE NO PM .. instead .. Go Direct ... >>>  hoofhearted121@yahoo.com  <<<


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## hoofhearted

LESTER HUB .... a few more pics .......... from ebay auction October 17, 2012 ....


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## Balloontyre

*Right on Patric, WOW*

Ya baby...a perfect ornament within its own holiday trimmed box.


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## Gary Mc

I'll second that with a DOUBLE WOW!!!!!!!!!! Same guy that had the 1912 Racycle!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rustyspoke66

That thing is fantastic!!


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## s1b

Wow what a great piece of history!


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## hoofhearted

*Good Reading From the Recent Past ...
Bump to The Top ..........*


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## Kato

In trying to do some more research on my Yale before I sell it I've been going over old Davis containing threads I found the first pic.
Napoleon owned by DFA242 - - - The 2nd pic is my Yale..........pretty close I think


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## hoofhearted

*Knock-Knock.*

*Who's There ?*

*Re-Read.*

*Re-Read Who ?*

*It Matters Not.  *
*As an aside … I still Do Not Have A Grasp *
*On Knock-Knock Joke Technology. .Yarr !!*

*TIME for a Re-Read …..*

*This Thread is LOADED … Start with Page One.*

*Yule Be Glad You Did.*

*….. patric*


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