# Repaint?



## jwages (Jun 17, 2019)

I recently bought a bicycle and paid up for it because it was advertised as NOS. It has a couple paint oddities and I’m trying to determine whether it’s a repaint. I figure you guys have seen way more OG bikes than me. What’s throwing me is the pin striping on the fender. It’s not great, but I don’t know if factory pins sometimes had uneven outcomes. This a 1948 Firestone. Murray built I believe. It also has a pedal block with a chunk missing and what appears to be a touch up. Does this qualify as NOS and do you guys think OG paint?











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## jwages (Jun 17, 2019)

And no, I’m not at all unhappy with the bike nor do I think the seller misrepresented this bike. It’s beautiful. Just want to hear opinions. 


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## GTs58 (Jun 17, 2019)

I'll quote the X Wife. "Will you still love me if I tell you the truth?"


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## jwages (Jun 17, 2019)

Lol. Yes.


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## GTs58 (Jun 18, 2019)

Okay then.   To my eye, the white pins look like they were masked off and sprayed, something that wasn't done at the factory.


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## jwages (Jun 18, 2019)

Okay, one vote on the chalk board. I appreciate your opinion. 


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## mrg (Jun 18, 2019)

Be nice to see bigger pics to get overall look and what little pics I see looks Monark?


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## jwages (Jun 18, 2019)

I’m working out of town and will post overalls when I get home. 


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## Bearclaw (Jun 18, 2019)

GTs58 said:


> Okay then.   To my eye, the white pins look like they were masked off and sprayed, something that wasn't done at the factory.



I'm with you on the masked part but do you think he taped out all the red to spray the white or it was white and he used fine line sprayed the red and peeled off tape weird about all the little tics and the way it tails off at the end???


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## Freqman1 (Jun 18, 2019)

If that is that twin headlight Monark then I think the wear on the pedal blocks is incongruent with the condition of the paint. Are the fender braces riveted? What do the undersides of the fenders look like? V/r Shawn


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## jwages (Jun 18, 2019)

It has twin headlights and split rear reflector. I’ll have to check the under side of the fenders when I get home. This is the only overall photo I have. 







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## jwages (Jun 18, 2019)

This bike. 






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## Jay81 (Jun 18, 2019)

It's Monark built. In my opinion, it's a repaint. And the pedal with the chunk missing, also shows heavy wear on the other block, indicating a used pedal.
Nice looking bike.


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## jwages (Jun 18, 2019)

The risks you take buying online I guess. The headlight appears unused and had original paperwork inside. I was hoping the newness applied to the whole enchilada.






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## jwages (Jun 18, 2019)

It must have been stripped and painted? There’s some wear on the top bar and I’m not seeing layers. Or maybe just the fender is restored? When I get home I’ll post some close ups of the tank. The script on it looks fairly clean. 






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## rustjunkie (Jun 18, 2019)

pictures of known originals would be helpful here


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## Freqman1 (Jun 18, 2019)

I wouldn't give up just yet. That wear on the top bar is more consistent with a factory finish to me. I'd look under the fenders and see what it looks like. Also fender braces should be riveted. V/r Shawn


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## Allrounderco (Jun 18, 2019)

Its a fine looking bike. Sucks when things aren’t what we expect. If it rides as good as it looks, you’re going to have a good time.


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## redline1968 (Jun 18, 2019)

The first thing that sticks out to me  is the cad color on the braces / rivet looks painted and not cad coated.. the end of the white pins don’t point at the beginning and has small “dips” which points to taping not brush...The tank has some wear which looks more like scrapes then a soft smooth wear on old paint... in my opinion I’d say it is a old resto of a better caliber...


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## Euphman06 (Jun 18, 2019)

I kind of feel like there's a basecoat of white and then it was taped and sprayed the maroon color to make the pinstripes. Those edges seem just a tad fuzzy, like a bit of painter tape bleeding underneath. I would guess a 1980s-90s quality resto


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## fordmike65 (Jun 18, 2019)

jwages said:


> And no, I’m not at all unhappy with the bike nor do I think the seller misrepresented this bike. It’s beautiful. Just want to hear opinions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Well...it was sold as "NOS", correct?


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## jwages (Jun 18, 2019)

Yes, I guess I should say knowingly or maliciously misrepresented. 


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## fordmike65 (Jun 18, 2019)

jwages said:


> Yes, I guess I should say knowingly or maliciously misrepresented.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I would give the seller the benefit of the doubt that they indeed believed it was NOS...or that is what they were told. It's still a great looking bike whether NOS or repainted long ago. Unfortunately this is something we'll see more and more as repaints and repopped parts age themselves...


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## jwages (Jun 18, 2019)

fordmike65 said:


> I would give the seller the benefit of the doubt that they indeed believed it was NOS...or that is what they were told. It's still a great looking bike whether NOS or repainted long ago. Unfortunately this is something we'll see more and more as repaints and repopped parts age themselves...




Agreed. 


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## jwages (Jun 23, 2019)

Finally home. Here are some updated photos to give you guys a better idea. Fenders still riveted underside. 




















































































OG or not OG? That is the question. 


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## Freqman1 (Jun 23, 2019)

I may be in the minority but my gut says original. I think the stripes and graphics were masked form the factory and not hand applied. V/r Shawn


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## stoney (Jun 23, 2019)

I say original paint. I don't think NOS---GREAT bike. Congrats


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jun 23, 2019)

looks original to me. NOS means never sold or ridden, so most likely not NOS.


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## GTs58 (Jun 23, 2019)

Very convincing other than the used pedals. Is the chain ring in new condition with no wear what so ever? It looks pretty good from what I can see in the pictures. Find some (nos) pedals or blocks to get rid of that red flag.


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## fordmike65 (Jun 23, 2019)

My untrained eyes picking apart pics on a phone tell me it's legit. It just has that "look". Congrats on an amazing purchase.


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## jwages (Jun 23, 2019)

GTs58 said:


> Very convincing other than the used pedals. Is the chain ring in new condition with no wear what so ever? It looks pretty good from what I can see in the pictures. Find some (nos) pedals or blocks to get rid of that red flag.




Chain ring has sharp teeth but they don’t look perfect. Not sure how perfect they should be though. 











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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jun 23, 2019)

jeepers creepers Mr. Wilson. look at that chain and gears.  in my mind now the only mystery is the wear on the pedals.

look at all the nuts and bolts.. any signs of anything every being taken apart?


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## GTs58 (Jun 23, 2019)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> jeepers creepers Mr. Wilson. look at that chain and gears.  in my mind now the only mystery is the wear on the pedals.
> 
> look at all the nuts and bolts.. any signs of anything every being taken apart?




If you look at the teeth, leading edge, you'll see that bike has had a few good miles put on it and that somewhat pairs up to the wear on the pedals. Uneven tooth wear but it's there.


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## jwages (Jun 23, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> I may be in the minority but my gut says original. I think the stripes and graphics were masked form the factory and not hand applied. V/r Shawn




I guess I was under the impression that all factory pin striping was done by hand. Not so?


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## bricycle (Jun 24, 2019)

that pic of the pedal shows a lot of wear, so that pedal is not nos.


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## jwages (Jun 26, 2019)

Feedback on the paint is welcome news. The fact that it turned out not to be NOS is a let down but such is life making online purchases. It’s a really cool bike regardless. I’ll have it cleaned up with air in the tires by next week. I’m looking to replace the pedals or the blocks if anyone has something suitable they want to sell. Gracias. 


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## bikejunk (Jun 26, 2019)

The few really NOS bikes I have owned were the most weirdly worn bikes as well one sat in the hardware store window probably for years and was so faded on one side you would say it needs to be repainted -the other side was perfect. The other had so much shelf wear from 60 years of being moved around that also got re painted -both hardware store basement finds ----I also vote original paint


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## oldmtrcyc (Jun 27, 2019)

jwages said:


> Yes, I guess I should say knowingly or maliciously misrepresented.




Bullsh!t.  I just ran across this thread, with much disappointment.   I bought this bike from an estate, through a very knowledgeable bicycle guy that has owned every killer bike out there and knows his stuff.  When I finally got possession of it, I, too, think it is original paint, and the story of where it came from, how the guy got it, etc... I firmly believe it was never sold out of a bike shop.  For the last 10 years, it has been moved several times from storage to storage, each time by an idiot that stacked crap on and around it.  

As for the pedals, I never paid attention to them to be honest.  I caught a red eye from the west coast to Illinois and then loaded up a van with 10 bikes and other antiques, and then drove 2000 miles in 2 days to Portland,  then 600 miles the third day to Sacramento,  where you took possession of it, John.   I spent all of 3 minutes looking at it, but I would now guess someone changed the pedals.  If someone has some correct, NOS pedals, I will buy them and throw them at you.  

My last Point here is that you took possession of the bike and looked it over very carefully while I was unloading all my other junk at the Swap Meet.  You were happy then and you were happy the next day.  I would have gladly given you your money back right there on the spot.  The time to air any grievance was then and not in a public forum and question my integrity.  I'm done here.
Jim


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## jwages (Jun 27, 2019)

No one is down on the bike or you, Jim. See post 2. 


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jun 29, 2019)

GTs58 said:


> If you look at the teeth, leading edge, you'll see that bike has had a few good miles put on it and that somewhat pairs up to the wear on the pedals. Uneven tooth wear but it's there.




we will have to agree to disagree on that.


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## GTs58 (Jun 29, 2019)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> we will have to agree to disagree on that.





Welp, the wear on the chain ring is clearly visible with one of the worst worn of the teeth pointed out with the scratched in arrow. If you've never seen one,  the teeth are not pointed on NOS chain rings.   I still say the pedals reflect the wear on the drive train along with the age.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jun 29, 2019)

well good for you. as stated I disagree.


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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Jun 29, 2019)

I know this post has been a hot topic for over a week and I thought, what the heck might as well give my opinion. The big issue seems to be the wear on the pedals and chain ring. What I see is damage, not wear to otherwise original nice pedals. The pedals are clean, no rust on shafts, signs of cleaning or foot wear (look again) . looks like damage from aging (brittleness) and probably carelessness over the last seventy years. Same on chain ring, no rust or cleaning scratches, just nice aged platting. And really, do you restore a bike and leave original aged brittle flat tires on it. My feeling is a incredible 70 year old survivor, never sold at retail and maybe rode by previous owners a hand full of times. Pretty damn close to NOS if you ask me (...and you didn't LOL).


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## kreika (Jun 29, 2019)

I’ll guess the kid that had this bike had some accident that caused the pedal damage. Then refused to ride it ever again,  hence the superb condition.


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## jwages (Jul 1, 2019)

frankandpam said:


> I know this post has been a hot topic for over a week and I thought, what the heck might as well give my opinion. The big issue seems to be the wear on the pedals and chain ring. What I see is damage, not wear to otherwise original nice pedals. The pedals are clean, no rust on shafts, signs of cleaning or foot wear (look again) . looks like damage from aging (brittleness) and probably carelessness over the last seventy years. Same on chain ring, no rust or cleaning scratches, just nice aged platting. And really, do you restore a bike and leave original aged brittle flat tires on it. My feeling is a incredible 70 year old survivor, never sold at retail and maybe rode by previous owners a hand full of times. Pretty damn close to NOS if you ask me (...and you didn't LOL).




Thanks. Good point regarding the tires. And I hadn’t considered the pedals had loss just due to becoming brittle and getting banged around over the years. I appreciate the feedback. Still learning to identify this stuff and calibrate my eyes. 


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## bikecrazy (Jul 1, 2019)

I can’t believe how people abuse the acronym “NOS”.My understanding is it means New Original Stock. In my opinion, the bike looks great and is a definite keeper. Is it OG paint? I am leaning towards yes. If it is a repaint, it is extremely well done. Enjoy the bike. You have a jewel there.


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## jwages (Jul 1, 2019)

Thanks. Just pulled the tank and wheels for polishing and I’m sure you’re right about the paint. With just a little polish and elbow grease, it’s looking like a brand new bicycle. Internals like the horn’s battery cage looked unused just like the fender light. Here’s a look inside the tank, and I’ll post some more pics after clean up. It’s a beautiful bicycle. 


































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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Jul 1, 2019)

*New old stock*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


*New old stock* (*NOS*), also backronymed as "new on the shelf" or "new off the shelf",[_citation needed_] refers to obsolete equipment, or original parts (components), that have never been sold at retail.[1]
The term refers to merchandise being offered for sale which was manufactured long ago but that has never been used. Such merchandise may not be produced anymore, and the new old stock may represent the only current market source of a particular item.
Although not an officially recognized accounting term, it is in common use in the auction and retail industries. For example, owners of antique vehicles seek NOS parts from specialized vendors that are needed to keep their automobiles, motorcycles, or trucks operational or in factory-original condition. Classic and vintage bicycle enthusiasts put a premium on NOS parts.
Another example is a business catering to vacuum tube enthusiasts that defines NOS as "mainly a retailer's term for any stocked item which is either A: out of production; B: discontinued from the current line of product; C: has been sitting on a stockroom or warehouse shelf for some time; or D: any combination of the above. The only constant here is that the product is unused."[2]
While damage to the original packaging is common, damage to its contents is generally not preferred in determining if an item is NOS; however, many items have been on shelves or in storage and over time may have developed some damage. This minor damage from shelf life does not detract from an item being identified as NOS.[_citation needed_]
Other people refer to *new original stock*, meaning that they are original equipment parts that remained in inventory for a use that never came. Automobile dealers and parts companies often sell such slow-moving stock at a discount. Other specialty parts vendors then market these NOS parts that may either decline or increase in value depending on their type and desirability.[


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## jwages (Jul 1, 2019)

The information in red is what I wasn’t sure about. So maybe NOS doesn’t necessarily mean “like new.” At least not always. So rather than expect it, I’ll inspect it. 


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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Jul 1, 2019)

jwages said:


> The information in red is what I wasn’t sure about. So maybe NOS doesn’t necessarily mean “like new.” At least not always. So rather than expect it, I’ll inspect it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If I was you I wouldn't worry about what other people think or speculate anyway. You bought the bike for you. When you go to bed at night, you know you got the nicest original 1948 Firestone in existence (let somebody try in find another one!). End of story !


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## jwages (Jul 1, 2019)

I like it. 


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## Jay81 (Jul 2, 2019)

frankandpam said:


> I know this post has been a hot topic for over a week and I thought, what the heck might as well give my opinion. The big issue seems to be the wear on the pedals and chain ring. What I see is damage, not wear to otherwise original nice pedals. The pedals are clean, no rust on shafts, signs of cleaning or foot wear (look again) . looks like damage from aging (brittleness) and probably carelessness over the last seventy years. Same on chain ring, no rust or cleaning scratches, just nice aged platting. And really, do you restore a bike and leave original aged brittle flat tires on it. My feeling is a incredible 70 year old survivor, never sold at retail and maybe rode by previous owners a hand full of times. Pretty damn close to NOS if you ask me (...and you didn't LOL).






jwages said:


> Thanks. Good point regarding the tires. And I hadn’t considered the pedals had loss just due to becoming brittle and getting banged around over the years. I appreciate the feedback. Still learning to identify this stuff and calibrate my eyes.




The tires are something that hasn't really been mentioned other than in the two posts I quoted above. At least one of them has been replaced. You have a Davis Deluxe on the front, and a Sears Allstate on the rear. I do not know what tires the bike would have originally been equipped with, but I would say the rear tire has been replaced, as I highly doubt Monark would have put an Allstate tire on a Firestone bike.
This does not help with determining whether or not the paint is original, but does point to the possibility of the bike having been ridden, and not NOS.










Regarding this pedal, yes the missing chunk is damage, not wear. But, there is clearly wear in addition to the missing chunk. Both blocks show wear, but especially the one across from the missing chunk.
While it is a nice pedal aside from the one block, there is no question that this is most definitely a used pedal.





I suppose it is possible, that the rest of the bike is NOS, aside from the pedals and at least one of the tires. It's possible someone found the NOS bike without pedals, and added them, and replaced a tire to get it riding.
I'm still wondering about the paint though, specifically the beige stripes and lettering, all having fuzzy edges like it was taped off. The paint just doesn't have a factory look to it, and personally I think it looks like an older, quality restoration done maybe 20-30 years ago. 

*Either way it is a great looking bike, and what matters most is that you are happy with it, which it sounds like you are. *


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## jwages (Jul 2, 2019)

I overlooked the tires, good catch. Just sitting flat for years may have killed off a tire. The rear tire isn’t safe to ride on now. 

As for the paint, I guess it would be helpful to compare it to another bike. Someone mentioned it may have been masked at the factory. Are factory logos and pins always super sharp? Usually hand painted? Or did that often vary?


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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Jul 2, 2019)

Remember nothing was perfect back in those days. Nobody was as picky as they are now. Bicycles(and other stuff) weren't crafted, they were put together quickly at the factory. A lot of times manufacturers put on what they had available at time of build. Sometimes new bikes didn't look "exactly" like the picture in the ad, which drive collectors nuts. Kids didn't care. The replaced tire was obviously not original, but obviously done a long time ago. The original pedals could have been robbed for another bike. I still think they should have more center wear, not on inside, unless rider was pigeon toed. And one last comment. Why would someone take the original pedals and let's say tires, maybe cause they needed them, were primo and "dumping" the bike anyway, and leave a high dollar mint never used ( can't argue that) delta twin light setup on the front ? You don't try to get top dollar for a bike by installing used pedals and flat tire's. This bike has a story. In seventy plus years a lot takes place !


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## ADReese (Jul 2, 2019)

Is it possible the stripes were applied at the factory with a roller brush similar to a Beugler? Those can leave a hard edge. It has a hand done look the way the lines flare at the end. I believe there was a pic on here of ladies at the schwinn fatory using a tool similar to a Beugler. 

Amazing bike btw! My vote is original paint and very lightly ridden! Enjoy


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## Jay81 (Jul 2, 2019)

jwages said:


> I overlooked the tires, good catch. Just sitting flat for years may have killed off a tire. The rear tire isn’t safe to ride on now.
> 
> As for the paint, I guess it would be helpful to compare it to another bike. Someone mentioned it may have been masked at the factory. Are factory logos and pins always super sharp? Usually hand painted? Or did that often vary?
> 
> ...




Most definitely comparing it to a known original that is well preserved, would be helpful if you wish to continue digging in and further investigate your bike.
Then again, you also may just decide to forget about it and enjoy it.


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## skiptooth (Jul 2, 2019)

J ,  here's the thing if you like it ride it. now you won't have to worry if it gets chips here and there.


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## skiptooth (Jul 2, 2019)

I think your Monark looks great !!  just take it for a ride !!!


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## jwages (Jul 2, 2019)

It’s just in me to investigate. I like understanding the details. Seems like you guys do too. The research is fun. 

I gave it a rub down and new tubes. Everything polished out real nice. It’s on display in the living room until vetoed by the Mrs. Some new tires and she’ll be on the road. 


















































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## Euphman06 (Jul 2, 2019)

I think we are all used to the old "if its too good to be true..." deal, but the more I look at this I think its legit. Its just so nice that its probably easier thinking its repainted rather than original. 

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## Jay81 (Jul 2, 2019)

jwages said:


> It’s just in me to investigate. I like understanding the details. Seems like you guys do too. The research is fun.




In that case, I would also suggest removing the crank and the fork at some point. Look at the frame inside the bottom bracket and head tube, and look at the fork steer tube as well. You may or may not find some clues in those areas.


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## redline1968 (Jul 2, 2019)

Should be more overspray on the inside the tank.   It really looks too neat   Most tanks I’ve had had overspray paint inside...and areas where there is no primer or paint.....


jwages said:


> Thanks. Just pulled the tank and wheels for polishing and I’m sure you’re right about the paint. With just a little polish and elbow grease, it’s looking like a brand new bicycle. Internals like the horn’s battery cage looked unused just like the fender light. Here’s a look inside the tank, and I’ll post some more pics after clean up. It’s a beautiful bicycle.
> 
> View attachment 1024138
> 
> ...


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## GTs58 (Jul 2, 2019)

After looking at all the nuts and bolts and the additional pictures of the paint etc. I believe that's a super nice unmolested piece. But, I can't understand how anyone with any experience will overlook the wear on the chain ring. Guess the critics of these old bikes have never seen a new chain ring or one that shows no wear. That bike has some miles on it and it's obvious from the wear on the teeth and condition of the pedals. The original owner must have loved that bike!


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## bikesnbuses (Jul 3, 2019)

Unsure if these would help..My opinion is that the bike is a SUPER nice original..
to me though the ONLY "odd" thing is that the paint has "chips" on the top bar. IF this thing is "restored"? whoever did it spent WAAAYYYY to much time/effort/$$(Meaning they had to of lost $$$ on it because it was like new/original/correct )..Tires? Mine had Firestone blackwall tires on it . I happened to have closeups of the tank graphics I took for someone restoring theirs ..Hope they help(But crusty paint doesnt help with viewing clean edges though..


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## jwages (Jul 3, 2019)

Looks pretty close to me. Maybe can’t see the edges but looks like the same stencil. To me anyhow. Thanks for posting. 


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## Brutuskend (Jul 3, 2019)

Jay81 said:


> The tires are something that hasn't really been mentioned other than in the two posts I quoted above. At least one of them has been replaced. You have a Davis Deluxe on the front, and a Sears Allstate on the rear. I do not know what tires the bike would have originally been equipped with, but I would say the rear tire has been replaced, as I highly doubt Monark would have put an Allstate tire on a Firestone bike.
> This does not help with determining whether or not the paint is original, but does point to the possibility of the bike having been ridden, and not NOS.
> 
> View attachment 1024467
> ...



 As far as the tire being replaced. I, like many of you I'm sure have bikes sitting for a LONG time that loose air, then get cracks in the side wall from sitting there with no air in them. Tires can get toasted and still can have never been ridden. I ser tires come through the shop all the time with perfict tread and wasted sidewalls. My guess is one tire was neglected, got dried out, sat flat and cracked the sidewall.


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## jwages (Jul 5, 2019)

I’ve created a wanted post for correct or period tires to complete this bike. If you can help, shoot me a message. Looking forward to riding it. [emoji2191] Thanks!


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## redline1968 (Jul 8, 2019)

Just found one thought I’d post some pics of the inside of this tank..this ones patinad well but still original color


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## jwages (Jul 8, 2019)

Looks like the same color primer. Mine shows a little less overspray but then the undercoat and primary are similar colors. Brackets show some overspray like yours. Super helpful. Thanks for posting. How’s the pin striping and stenciling?


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## dave the wave (Jul 8, 2019)

here's a nice girls to go with your boys bike and the same year and cheap too.! https://marshall.craigslist.org/bik/d/madison-vintage-firestone-bike/6910394690.html


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## jwages (Jul 11, 2019)

She’s a beaut. If I could only get the old lady on a bicycle. 


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## piercer_99 (Jul 11, 2019)

jwages said:


> Chain ring has sharp teeth but they don’t look perfect. Not sure how perfect they should be though.
> 
> View attachment 1019511
> 
> ...



NOS looks like this.


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## markivpedalpusher (Jul 11, 2019)

I didn’t read thru every post on this thread but it’s common for collectors to take the pedals off to save space especially when moved around from place to place or when bikes change owners- those pedals may not even be from this bike. I’ve seen collections with no pedals on the bikes. They get stashed somewhere later to hopefully be mated with the correct bike.

Nice bike !


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## jwages (Jul 11, 2019)

Thanks, Mark. 


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## OldSkipTooth (Jul 11, 2019)

markivpedalpusher said:


> I didn’t read thru every post on this thread but it’s common for collectors to take the pedals off to save space especially when moved around from place to place or when bikes change owners- those pedals may not even be from this bike. I’ve seen collections with no pedals on the bikes. They get stashed somewhere later to hopefully be mated with the correct bike. I think the pics of the tank reveal that your bike is a very preserved original.
> 
> Nice bike !



Mark is right. I worked at a bike shop decades ago and we hung all the bikes up without pedals, the owner always said the pedals get in the way and scratch the other bikes up in storage moving them around, he was a bike salesman who had been around since just after the war.


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## CURTIS L LINDGREN (Jul 11, 2019)

My Monark has a " Messed Up Pedal "   As well .


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