# new to forum, mystery bike i.d.?



## gregv (Feb 19, 2009)

hello all

I've been into Schwinn middleweights quite for some time, but this frame that was gifted to me about a decade or so ago has recently grabbed my interest. From some prelim research online, it seems to possibly be a Huffman Dayton (or is that more correctly Dayton Huffman?). The spacing on the two vertical headbadge fasteners is 2 3/16, which seems to match up with a Dayton badge spied on ebay. I could not find a serial number anywhere either.

At any rate, I know very very little about these types of bikes, so any info is much appreciated.

thanks!

greg v.


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## gregv (Feb 19, 2009)

so I've been searching this excellent forum, and have been educating myself a bit....

Took a closer look at the photo I took of the bottom bracket area, and there does indeed seem to be a serial number there, which is strange because I did look there last night. At any rate, this would seem to be a post-war frame, judging by the rear dropouts, correct?

I am a little confused by the various brands that these similar frames seem to be offered in; is Huffman the parent company, and they made different brands like Dayton, Hawthorne, Firestone etc? Similar to Schwinn making BF Goodrich bikes in the 50's?

Anyways, sorry for the newb questions, I'm sure you guys are scratching your heads at my basic questions and lack of general knowledge. I would very much like to get at least the proper headbadge for this bike, and a correct chainguard would also be great. Would this bike have come with truss-rod forks?

I will post the serial number when I get a chance to have a closer look, and see if I can get any info from this thread:

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1162&highlight=dayton

thanks again

greg v.


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## 37fleetwood (Feb 19, 2009)

Welcome to the forum! and we have a middleweight forum, and won't hold it against you if you have Schwinn middleweights, hopefully it's just a phase.
I just looked at your photos. first thing I notice is it definitely isn't a Huffman. Huffman was the manufacturer, Dayton was a brand name. 
anyway back to your frame, the drop outs are not familiar to me. the welds are too rough for any of the big bike manufacturers of the past. I was going to make a guess but I think I'll wait and see if someone knows more certainly what you have.


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## gregv (Feb 19, 2009)

hello Scott

thanks for your reply. The welds are actually so bad that while I was giving it a good lookover last night I almost became convinced that it was a home-made....although the welds at the front are nice & factory looking, the rest is pretty bad. I can only guess that someone got enthusiastic with a welder sometime in the last 60 years, and went to town "touching up" all the welds, or ???

The bike shown here made me think it might be a Dayton, although the rear dropouts on mine are indeed different:

http://johnsvintagebikes.com/Collection/36_dayton_huffman/index.html

Many details seem to be very similar, though, like the way the rear uppers meet the seat mast, the shape, spacing & layout of the top & intermediate tubes and how they meet the neck. I could be wrong of course....

Any chance that this is a later Dayton with the post-war style rear dropouts?

Anyways, I'm very curious to find out! Unless it turns out to be some ancient CCM or Raleigh or something......OK maybe that wouldn't be the end of the world but mid-century American is what I'm hoping for!

thanks!

gv

edit: after a closer look, there are lots of differences......


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## balloontirecruiser (Feb 19, 2009)

My guess would have to be Monark Rocket, mid 1950's- though it doesn't look perfectly identical to the Monark frames I've seen it looks very similar to the Monark Rocket frame with the straighter lower bar...


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## 37fleetwood (Feb 19, 2009)

well I have around a dozen Huffman and Huffy bikes ranging from 1936 through the mid 1960's. the one you posted the photos of is a 1946-47 bike, the 36 on the hub indicates the wheel has 36 spokes. I have two frames similar to this one. your frame is different at these points:
the rear dropouts are not Huffman or Huffy of any year.
the seat stays narrow too much between the upper fender attach point and the seat tube.
the two upper bars are too close together at the rear.
the bend on the down tube is not bent like Huffman at all.
the heat tube looks too long for huffman
 one is a complete bike. here are a few photos of my bikes so you can better see.

here is a photo of my 1941-2 Pilot. it has different dropouts and seat binder from the frame you have and the bike you referenced.




here is my 1944 Dayton which is very similar to the bike you referenced but not like your frame at all.





this is a 1948 model that I recently sold, notice that it is a completely different bike altogether. huffy went to this frame in 1948 and kept it until the late '50's when they started building cheap cantelever bikes. Huffman kept the rear facing dropouts on this frame style and didn't go to the fish hook type until much later and then they didn't look like yours at all. your's has that funny little knob where it attaches to the seat stays which to the right person will be the identifier of your frame.





and just to show you the other bike you referenced is not a 1936, here is a photo of my 1936 Fleetwood.


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## gregv (Feb 19, 2009)

hello Scott

thanks for taking the time to post the detailed response & photos; nice bikes! When i first started looking at this style of bike they all pretty much looked the same, but as you have pointed out, and I am starting to see, the differences are many, and in some cases subtle. Sure the general frame style is similar, but that's about it...

I stripped the paint off the bottom bracket and found the serial number 10089, if that means anything to anyone..I hope it does 

I will start seeing if I can find a Monark model similar to mine, or maybe a Hiawatha? Any chance that this bike could be some obscure Canadian model? I always assumed it was American, but seeing as how I'm in Canada it makes me think; it does have a vaguely CCM camel-back hump to the top tube.

thanks again!

greg v.


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## Gordon (Feb 20, 2009)

*mystery frame*

I don't think it is a Monark. Every Monark I've ever seen has a single tube connecting the seat tube to the seat stays.


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Feb 20, 2009)

*@ least we know what it isnt*

Gordon is right about the seat stays, hear is a pic of my Rocket, I can't find a better one right now


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## gregv (Feb 20, 2009)

It does seem close to a Monark, but if they changed the way the rear stays meet the seat mast then that's out as well.

Western Flyer maybe?

thanks everyone for their input thus far, I hope there's an answer out there!

greg v.

edit: Phil Marshall has suggested a slight chance at Manton-Smith provenance; I will see what I can find on this!


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## gregv (Feb 25, 2009)

these 50's  J.C. Higgins looks pretty close:

http://www.kevzoart.com/armybike.html

http://www.kevzoart.com/flamebike.html

although still some differences in how the tubes meet the rear dropouts (mine are flatter), and the front end geometry is still off, but the rest is quite close.

I have been busy downloading every decent shot of possible matches I can find, then loading them into photoshop and doing an "overlay" of sorts with the pics of my frame. One thing that seems to be coming out of this process is that my frame seems to have a shallower angle on the headtube than other bikes of this period. Does this mean anything to anyone? Of course, camera lens type, camera height etc. all play into this somehow, so its a bit of a Pandora's box.

Anyone know of a reference site for 50's Sears Canada bikes? How's that for obscure?....

cheers

greg v.


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## gregv (Mar 1, 2009)

Looking more and more like a Manton Smith folks...

Found these pics of a girl's bike that is identical to my frame from the seat mast back; note the drop-outs, seat post clamp etc:

http://photos.1offpowdercoating.com/GalleryFilmstrip.aspx?gallery=143993&photo=4878026

Note that there is a photo of the head badge as well, and that both images can be enlarged.

Also, I found traces of paint on the seat mast in the area where the elongated diamond shape would be, and what looks like a match to the head tube paintjob as shown on the bike below is still pretty much intact on the left side of my frame:

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle544.htm

So while I am still lacking concrete proof, it is looking likely that my bike is indeed a Manton and Smith. Which means I may have a tough time getting some specific parts, like a headbadge, chainring, chainguard. Will any "dogleg" 24tpi crank work, along with a generic 24tpi b.b. set?

Any parts or photo leads still much appeciated, as well as any info on these types of bikes.

thanks!

greg v.


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## willy wonka (Mar 4, 2009)

*not a monark*

is it a cwc or roll fast


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