# Cleveland Bicycle...should I buy?



## scrubbinrims (Sep 26, 2011)

Hello,

I am talking with the seller about purchasing this late 1800's early 1900's Cleveland diamond frame bicycle, hopefully in time for Trexelertown as it needs some more correct parts or ...

I am a balloon tire guy, so safeties of this vintage are outside of my knowledge, but I admire the simplicity of it and, of course, the shaft drive.

In my opinion, the handlebars and stem (obviously grips), and pedals are not original.  
The black paint is hard to tell if original, but doesn't look brushed on or spraypainted either, whatever the case it is in good condition, but the lighting doesn't show it.
The shaft drive works pretty smoothly in both directions, the tires are unmarked (nothing at all about manufacturer, completely smooth down the sides and hold air, very soft).
Wheels are completely wooden, slightly different aging between the two, but both appear older.
It appears to be a model 95 as was without fenders or braking, unless there was an unusual way to attach them.

So I have an open ended question...any thoughts?

Thanks, Chris


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## slick (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't know what the price is but for a shaft drive boys bike, i'd buy it in a heartbeat and ride it till the wheels fall off. That is an awesome bike! If you pass on it let me know!


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## scrubbinrims (Sep 26, 2011)

There is no price yet, just an offer, and honestly I don't know typical value on these as #1 I haven't paid much attention to them, #2 there are far too few Cleveland (or period shaft drive) bicycles to reference.

With all of the "Racycle madness" talk and wanting to diversify my collection, I have been thinking about picking up a pre WWI diamond frame bicycle.

I am totally serious when I say I could ride this thing today in a sanctioned Wheelmen event, enjoy a refreshment afterwards, then become a voter within the group... it's that road ready which is in itself rare for this vintage.

Chris


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## Andrew Gorman (Sep 26, 2011)

The handlebars don't look too incorrect to me.  The bike looks like a Columbia built Cleveland, so parts and comparable prices should be a little easier to track down.  I think the Pope Trust  bikes were badged "American Bicycle Company" between 1899 and 1902.   A very nice bike!


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## slick (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm no expert but i'd say at least $1k for it. Maybe closer to 2k?


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## MrColumbia (Sep 27, 2011)

It is pretty much the same as the Columbia version. About 1900 - 1902. They typically go for around $600-$700 for a non-cushion frame single speed. Maybe the Cleveland badged would go a bit higher.


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## scrubbinrims (Sep 27, 2011)

*Thanks for the replies*

I would have thought that complete, rideable bikes this old would be worth more money, but maybe the interest in them isn't as strong.
I was thinking the finite period of Cleveland badging of ABC is super rare as is an operating shaft drive.
Heck, the tires alone are 300 bucks to replace and what does a handmade wooden rim cost?
From advertisements I have uncovered, shaft drives were significantly higher in price, 50% more or so they have to be more rare, consistent with my observation....but I understand that rare does not equal big price tag necessarily (unless it is on a Elgin Robin prototype).
I offered a grand, but I think I will head to Trexlertown beforehand to find some nicer handlebars, grips, and pedals to compliment it....a nicer period saddle, I have.
Chris


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## MrColumbia (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm basing prices on what I have paid at swap meets like Copake and others here in the northeast. The Cleveland badged may be worth more than the Columbia badged bikes but the bikes are the same. Wheels in good shape and intact tires will bring the price up. I've paid as little as $400 and as much as $1,100 for Pope made shaft drive bikes. A cushion frame, spring fork or 2 speed drive will bring the price up.


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## scrubbinrims (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks Ken...I will take your experience over my speculation any day of the week.

Are you headed to Trexlertown this coming weekend to peruse vintage Westfield bicycles?
If so, please let me know if you could pick up a bike (for a fee, of course) in New Haven, CT, 5 minutes off I-95.

Chris


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## pelletman (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm not sure the cranks are correct.  I think Ken's estimate is generous


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## Andrew Gorman (Sep 27, 2011)

I agree on the cranks and pedals- they look look like two cottered left crankarms, not the round profile Pope parts.  BUT that's a pretty intriguing fix.  If you get the bike, or can get a closer look I'd love to see how that was done.  I have an 1899 Ladies frame parts carcass without cranks...


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## pelletman (Sep 27, 2011)

I also believe Columbias are more valuable than the lesser brands. At least they tend to bring more.  Sterling, Pierce or Orient would bring more than Columbia.


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## MrColumbia (Sep 28, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> Thanks Ken...I will take your experience over my speculation any day of the week.
> 
> Are you headed to Trexlertown this coming weekend to peruse vintage Westfield bicycles?
> If so, please let me know if you could pick up a bike (for a fee, of course) in New Haven, CT, 5 minutes off I-95.
> ...




I wont be going to Trexlertown. I would trust pelletman's opinion over mine, he's been doing this a lot longer than I have.


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## Andrew Gorman (Sep 28, 2011)

I'm kind of obsessing over the possible crank replacements.   Pope chainless bikes have a two piece crank, with the drive dogs effectively at the spindle end of the cranks.  I'll post some pictures later.  I don't see an easy way to make the swap work, but it obviously can be done.  Looking closely at the pictures the drive side  arm, originally one piece with the spindle, may have been turned down round, concentric with the spindle and them bushed out to fit the arm?  Something similar would have to have been done on the left side and would have to preserve the  conical nut that adjusts and tightens the spindle. Any other ideas   would be welcome!


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## scrubbinrims (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks to all for the assitance.
I have decided to not move forward with buying the bike at this time...or at least in advance of Trexlertown.
Hopefully, I will see some other safeties of this vintage to examine this weekend and if I find some neat older components (like crank arms!) I will revisit.
Silly question, but did these have some mechanism to stay upright instead of leaning it against something?
Chris.


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## MrColumbia (Sep 29, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> Thanks to all for the assitance.
> I have decided to not move forward with buying the bike at this time...or at least in advance of Trexlertown.
> Hopefully, I will see some other safeties of this vintage to examine this weekend and if I find some neat older components (like crank arms!) I will revisit.
> Silly question, but did these have some mechanism to stay upright instead of leaning it against something?
> Chris.




I've never seen one. One of the big pains about the chainless ABC/Pope/Westfield bikes. I wonder if other brands of chainless had stands of some kind?


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## pelletman (Sep 29, 2011)

I have never seen any kind of stand with any of the pre 1900 bikes I don't think


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## Larmo63 (Sep 29, 2011)

*Spoke count*

Interesting, 28 spokes on the front, 36 on the rear.


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