# NEW FIND - Westfield



## miller32 (Aug 12, 2013)

Just found this. Wondering what's original and what's not. Pretty cool bike though....


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## Machine Age Victim (Aug 12, 2013)

Beautiful!


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## miller32 (Aug 12, 2013)

More pics.....


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## Gary Mc (Aug 12, 2013)

Looks all original to me except the pedals, saddle, & handlebars & you hit the jackpot with the Indian style front fender.  Can tell you the year if you post the serial number but guessing somewhere around 1925.  Great bike!!!!!!!!


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## miller32 (Aug 12, 2013)

Gary Mc said:


> Looks all original to me except the pedals, saddle, & handlebars & you hit the jackpot with the Indian style front fender.  Can tell you the year if you post the serial number but guessing somewhere around 1925.  Great bike!!!!!!!!





Thanks Gary....I will get serial numbers for you tomorrow.


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## bikewhorder (Aug 12, 2013)

Sweet Jesus that is a great find!


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## Nick-theCut (Aug 12, 2013)

Now there is a truss fork I've never seen!  Super cool.


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## bikewhorder (Aug 12, 2013)

Nick-theCut said:


> Now there is a truss fork I've never seen!  Super cool.




I just found this one http://lancaster.craigslist.org/bik/3980525072.html


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## MrColumbia (Aug 13, 2013)

Nick-theCut said:


> Now there is a truss fork I've never seen!  Super cool.




That truss rod style was used from about 1924 or 25 up to 1929 on Columbia's and other Westfield built Motobikes. What I find odd on this bike is the front fender with the flair was used starting in 1917 and last shown in the catalogs in 1920. I wonder if the original fork was damaged and replaced. About half the old bikes I've ever dealt with have replaced forks.


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## dfa242 (Aug 13, 2013)

MrColumbia said:


> That truss rod style was used from about 1924 or 25 up to 1929 on Columbia's and other Westfield built Motobikes.




Here's one on a '24 Elgin.


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## chitown (Aug 13, 2013)

*Amazing Westfield!!!*

That is an awesome find!!!

Fenders are made by International Stamping Co out of Chicago:












dfa242 said:


> Here's one on a '24 Elgin.
> 
> View attachment 108850View attachment 108851




Are the bottle cap badged Elgin's the Michigan City Excelsior built ones? Like this one on Dave's site:

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle316


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## dfa242 (Aug 13, 2013)

Oh, good question - I seem to recall a discussion about this some time ago but memory fades...


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## miller32 (Aug 13, 2013)

I got online and tried to find frames, forks and such similar to the one I just found. I looked up an old Cabe thread and found a thread started by Fordsnake. His Indian bike has about the same frame, front fender and fork as the one I just found. I wonder what started out original on his bike? By the way...his bike is incredible.


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## Gary Mc (Aug 13, 2013)

For everything Indian I have go here:

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...dian-Motocycle-Co-Bicycles-Information-Thread

Here's what I just posted on bike's thread on the front fender & when Indian used it but remember Mr. Columbia said Columbia catalogs only show them used 1917-1920 so for a Westfield badged bike he probably had the best answer.  Keep in mind this fender was used by Westfield for non-Indian bikes between 1917-1920.  I have now seen a flared fender on three differently badged Westfield manufactured bikes including one original camelback, the only non-motobike I've seen one on.

*From bike's thread I posted on the Indian front fender use:*

They began with the relaunch of Indian bicycles in 1916 and I am still trying to confirm the date they stopped but I believe it to be around 1924.   They were only used by Indian on the Motobike & the Electrically Equipped Motobike models.

*START DATE:* I have positive proof of the 1916 start data via my 1916 catalog.  They were used in ads I have copies of in 1917, 1918, 1919, & 1920.  

*Confirmed 1916 catalog page with flaired fender*





*END DATE:* They are NOT shown on an Indian brochure I have of the bike advertising the Indian-Merkel Motor Wheel on an electrically equipped motorbike I believe to be from 1924 and they were definitely NOT used per my 1926 & 1928 Indian catalogs thus the reason I say around 1924.  I cannot confirm the 1924 brochure as 1924 but it is definitely between 1924 to 1926.  Fender changed again in 1927 to the ducktail fender as opposed to the contoured fender used circa 1924 to 1926.  

*I believe this is a 1924 brochure with contoured fender:*





*Confirmed 1926 catalog with contoured fender*




*
Confirmed 1928 catalog with ducktail fender
*




*OK all that was fact, now my opinion on what years which fender was used on the Indian Motobike and the Indian Electrically Equipped Motobike:
*
1916-1923 Flaired Fender
1924-1926 Contoured Fender
1927-1928+ Ducktail Fender

*I would love to find ads from the years I don't have to provide a CONFIRMED answer but I am missing ads from 1921-1925 and nothing at all after 1928.  If you have them PLEASE post them here.*


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## Gary Mc (Aug 13, 2013)

The serial number will nail the year of manufacture, then with Mr. Columbia's help you can determine whats wrong and what's right.  Fender is definitely not correct for those truss rods/fork setup according to years in use.  It will be interesting to see the SN to determine year frame was manufactured and determine if forks/truss rods or the fender is wrong.  That fender is worth more than everything else combined by the way.


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## fordsnake (Aug 13, 2013)

miller32 said:


> I got online and tried to find frames, forks and such similar to the one I just found. I looked up an old Cabe thread and found a thread started by Fordsnake. His Indian bike has about the same frame, front fender and fork as the one I just found. I wonder what started out original on his bike? By the way...his bike is incredible.




Nice score on your Westfield! My Indian you mentioned was cobbled together with original painted parts. I added the front flared fender, but the inverted "Y" truss rod was original when I purchased it...but as Mr Columbia states it is possible that truss rods were replaced; either for repair or at the request of a customer (lets not forget aftermarket items were just as prevalent back then as they are today). 




bike said:


> Somewhere in a trade journal I have seen these fenders advertised to any manufacturer. I THOUGHT THESE WERE CATALOGED for 15 and 16 INDIAN - Thoughts? THANKS!!!!!




Keep in mind that the patent date doesn't mean the year in which an item was manufactured. items are often produced in advance of when the patent is granted (patent pending). It appears that WALTER R. GREEN- the patent owner's application was made Sept 8, 1916. I speculate his design was developed long before 1916? 



Gary Mc said:


> *START DATE:* I have positive proof of the 1916 start data via my 1916 catalog.  *Confirmed 1916 catalog page with flaired fender*




It also appears that WALTER R. GREEN, had no allegiance to any manufacture (he also owned the patent for the fender brace and held several transportation related patents). 

The 1916 Indian catalog fender image is much smaller and follows closely the shape of the tire. Different from Green's patent drawing and the "Indian" flared fender that's commonly familiar?  

So let me throw out this possibility and see if you can address it? We know Westfield contracted with Hendee in 1915 to make Indians. Do you suspect the introduction of a flare fender on their new models, was a suggestion from Hendee or Westfield?  Or did WALTER R. GREEN approach Westfield in 1915 with his design and they stole it! Not knowing, he had already applied for the patent rights? Which he later sold to the International Stamping Company?


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## Gary Mc (Aug 13, 2013)

fordsnake said:


> The 1916 Indian catalog fender image is much smaller and follows closely the shape of the tire. Different from Green's patent drawing and the "Indian" flared fender that's commonly familiar?




Carlton, I think the 1916 drawing/artwork in the catalog is just off a little.  Here's Eazywind's original 1916 Indian model with the flared fender.  Marc's headbadge puts his bike as a 1916 model.  My 1917 catalog shows the headbadge changing to the Hendee Mfg badge with the Indian on it.


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## Gary Mc (Aug 13, 2013)

fordsnake said:


> So let me throw out this possibility and see if you can address it? We know Westfield contracted with Hendee in 1915 to make Indians. Do you suspect the introduction of a flare fender on their new models, was a suggestion from Hendee or Westfield?  Or did WALTER R. GREEN approach Westfield in 1915 with his design and they stole it! Not knowing, he had already applied for the patent rights? Which he later sold to the International Stamping Company?




Now that is a great question since Westfield manufactured Columbia's & Indians!!!!!  Indian definitely got it first in 1916 followed by Columbia in 1917 but was there a handshake agreement when these were launched to say Indian gets it a year early for Westfield to get the Hendee contract?  Was it a stolen design, don't have the answer, or were all produced by the International Stamping Company just like other bike components and purchased by Westfield to go on these bikes.  I suspect the later as only certain Westfield products, mostly only motobikes got them.  All great questions I wish we had records of to go by........


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## MrColumbia (Aug 13, 2013)

Gary Mc said:


> Now that is a great question since Westfield manufactured Columbia's & Indians!!!!!  Indian definitely got it first in 1916 followed by Columbia in 1917 but was there a handshake agreement when these were launched to say Indian gets it a year early for Westfield to get the Hendee contract?  Was it a stolen design, don't have the answer, or were all produced by the International Stamping Company just like other bike components and purchased by Westfield to go on these bikes.  I suspect the later as only certain Westfield products, mostly only motobikes got them.  All great questions I wish we had records of to go by........







Those records may exist in the filing cabinets at Columbia. My father used to bring me in to see them. Each drawer by year holding all that type of correspondence. I've asked for access but the management is non committal and won't agree to it right now. They still have in the back of their mind that they will re-open their museum and therefore want to keep all their records under wraps. My hope is that I will be involved if they ever do open the museum and subsequently will have access to the archives. If so the information will be posted for all to see. It may take years to scan the stuff though. What I have seen of them there are letters to suppliers and customers on all sorts of new models and parts. Hopefully the Indian connection stuff will be there too since by 1916 the main offices were in Westfield.


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## miller32 (Aug 13, 2013)

Gary Mc said:


> The serial number will nail the year of manufacture, then with Mr. Columbia's help you can determine whats wrong and what's right.  Fender is definitely not correct for those truss rods/fork setup according to years in use.  It will be interesting to see the SN to determine year frame was manufactured and determine if forks/truss rods or the fender is wrong.  That fender is worth more than everything else combined by the way.




Gary....took a look at the serial number and it is a little hard the read the stamping but it appears to be 096210.


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## MrColumbia (Aug 13, 2013)

miller32 said:


> Gary....took a look at the serial number and it is a little hard the read the stamping but it appears to be 096210.




In 1921 they started the serial numbers with a letter prefix that corresponded to the first letter in the catalog model designation. Prior to that they were using the last digit of the model year in the same way. Since there would be no reason to start a serial number with a "0" (this is my reasoning anyway) I would guess this is a 1920 model. The 1920 model numbers started with a "0". I believe that they would not start the serial number with a 0 because I've never seen them do it. In years where the numbers increase in digits the lower numbers simply have fewer digits in them.

*Disclaimer:* I do not know for a fact that they bothered putting the year designation with the serial number prior to 1921. This is just my working hypothesis. 

If this was a Columbia model the model number would be stamped into the badge, the model number for the Motobike being 006. The model is actually 06 and the first 0 shows the year as 1920. If the badge was stamped that would make life easier but less interesting.


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## MrColumbia (Aug 13, 2013)

Here is the catalog image for the Columbia Motobike for 1920, I don't have a Westfield catalog for that year.







Here is the 1921 Westfield Motobike for comparison. These should give a good idea of what is correct on the bike. Personally I think the fender is correct and the fork and truss rods were replaced. Does the front wheel look like the rear? Same rim? Often times a different front rim is a dead giveaway of a vintage front end collision.


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## miller32 (Aug 13, 2013)

MrColumbia said:


> Here is the catalog image for the Columbia Motobike for 1920, I don't have a Westfield catalog for that year.
> 
> View attachment 108907
> 
> ...




MrColumbia....I went out and checked....both rims match from front to back and are in real decent shape...


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## Hobo Bill (Aug 13, 2013)

*23 columbia*

You'yah,
                       I'm attempting to send along a pix of a 23 columbia model 9


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## fordsnake (Aug 13, 2013)

Gary Mc said:


> Carlton, I think the 1916 drawing/artwork in the catalog is just off a little.  Here's Eazywind's original 1916 Indian model with the flared fender.  Marc's headbadge puts his bike as a 1916 model.  My 1917 catalog shows the headbadge changing to the Hendee Mfg badge with the Indian on it.]




Attached is the 1916 Indian catalog and the patent drawing.




When the patent image is ghosted it clearly shows, the 1916 fender is not only smaller, but shaped more like the "duck tail" fender, plus the fit is closer to the wheel.




The same patent illustration ghosted over Easywind's bike...a perfect match, except for the top front length.


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## fordsnake (Aug 13, 2013)

Gary, maybe we should post our Indian findings under your previous Indian thread so that we don't muddle this Westfield post?  

Carlton


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## Gary Mc (Aug 13, 2013)

fordsnake said:


> Gary, maybe we should post our Indian findings under your previous Indian thread so that we don't muddle this Westfield post?
> 
> Carlton




Carlton, Yep I agree.  I have some new info if I can get time to scan it too. - Gary


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## MrColumbia (Aug 14, 2013)

miller32 said:


> MrColumbia....I went out and checked....both rims match from front to back and are in real decent shape...






It may be a 1923 or later model then. Maybe the flared fender was an option. Like I stated before, on the Columbia's they were primarily concerned with stamping the model/date code on the badge during the teens and early 20's. On the non-Columbia's they apparently did not care to do it at all.


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