# Copake Observations



## Freqman1 (Jun 27, 2021)

So I sat through about seven hours of the auction as I waited on a few items I was interested in. I had pre-bid through Hi-Bid on about eight items and by the time the auction started I was already outbid on all but three. Overall there were no "must haves" for me in this auction. This session was really light on quality balloon stuff but the star of the show here was the '39 Zep (Lot 88) that was hammered for $8250. Regardless of which bid service you used that brought the take home price real close to $10k if not above. That has to be a new record for a Zep. A surprise to me was the girls Columbia (Lot 76). No doubt an outstanding, nice, original bike which was hammered for $2500 so about $3000 by the time you get it home. The '37 Dayton Super Streamline (Lot 107) went for $4000. I personally think this bike is bogus and evidently there was enough concern among other collectors to temper the bidding on this one as well. The Clipper (Lot 105) was something of a surprise to me. Not a bad looking restoration but the colors looked off to me but that didn't stop it from hitting $3000 when these usually struggle to get close to that. There wasn't much else balloon wise but I think someone did ok on Lot 477a which was a ratty prewar boys Columbia but it did have a ND 2 speed an a decent looking Seiss or Delta aluminum battery tube for $675.

The auction featured a lot of high end road bikes and it appeared to me that the truly vintage stuff sold pretty good although there were more than a few bargains in their as well such as the R.O. Harrison (Lot 364) which went for $675 which brings me to my one gripe about the auction--my bid button froze two times during the auction and this was one of those times. The other time was on the AMF Gloria (Lot 67) which went for $1200. I was also interested in the Cambio Corsa equipped bikes. The poorly restored Bianchi (Lot 69) went for $1400 which I don't think was a bad price but I already have one. The Gerbi (Lot 275) went for $2400 which by the time you got done with fees I feel was about market correct for a rare and original bike. Some of the newer high end stuff was downright bargains. The one real surprise to me here was the Rene Herse bike (Lot 376) that brought $4250.

The TOC stuff is out of my wheelhouse for the most part but looked like a mix as well. I thought the Apex (Lot 237) was pretty cool as did bidders who took it to $1600. The Columbia All-Brite (Lot 14) went for $4250 which I thought was a good buy. The Star Pony (Lot 38) looked like a nice bike and hit $7000 which I thought may have been a good buy as well. Some of the lesser stuff I thought sold about market if not a little above. 

Lastly was parts, ephemera, and ride on toys. I really wasn't interested in too much here. Always a mixed bag when you have lots that have that one item that people really want. Although I like tricycles the ones offered in the auction were mostly restored and I use that word very loosely here as it seems lot of liberties were taken in the transformation of these. Overall I thought they all sold above market  but should make nice mancave decorations. 

I'm looking forward to the fall sale which, unfortunately, is scheduled the same time as MLC. Gonna be hard to multi-task at Bowling Green in Sep! I'd be interested to hear what some of you think about the online auction and particularly if you experienced problem bidding. V/r Shawn


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## 100bikes (Jun 27, 2021)

I too sat through the Copake auction. The items I was bidding on were pretty late in the action,
and I actually did win some of them for the price I had wanted- plus the buyers premium.

What was really eye opening for me was the strike price of the lightweight(road bicycles)
Perhaps it is the shortage of product in the industry or maybe the humble road bike is coming
into vogue.

Whatever the reason, the vast majority of the lightweight offerings went for, what in my estimation, 
was top dollar.

After sitting through 4 live auctions at Copake over the years and this along with one other online 
version, I can say the live auctions are my preference. With the ability to preview the goods, the 
flow of the live auction, the great, social interaction and the side banter of both Seth and Mike as 
they work through the lots all add to the event. 

And there is also the swap meet in the sheep pen, but that is something for another discussion.

If I can vent a bit, I would like to see a singular online bidding platform. There were 3 platforms 
plus the Copake inhouse, pre-bid one. It was difficult to ascertain what early bids were in place 
and how they would affect the bidding process. Each platform had its own bids in place before
the event and no central platform that married all the pre bids, some with overlapping amounts. 

Copake also listed the auction as having no reserves. The auction platforms instituted "opening bids", 
in effect, placing reserves on the goods. That had the effect of driving some prices much higher than 
I would have expected of a number of items. 

Using both prebid to win 5 auctions and one live bid for the sixth, I did get some of what I 
wanted. I also lost a couple due to not having the correct bid increment in place. 

I lost a couple live bids because of the inconsistent speed of closing the auction varied 
after the "fair warning " icon showed up. Some auctions closed without a warning.

While the auction platforms had nothing to due with this, my computer locked up for a time 
and I missed the bidding on 15 or 20 auctions(2 or 3 which I was going to bid on). 
Frustrating, but the nature of online bidding.

All said, it went pretty well(and long) and I am generally a happy bidder.

I hope to be at Copake again. 

Unfortunately this fall's iteration of the auction and swap overlap with fall Memory Lane.
Glad there is pre bidding in place...............

rusty


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## Mark Mattei (Jun 27, 2021)

Pre-bid on 10 or so items. Won One bike and two smalls one of Which is the Torrington ice breaker, A new one to me and a bit of amusing


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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Jun 27, 2021)

Thanks for posting results everyone. Anyone see what lot 297a 1941 Rollfast went for ? I wasn't bidding, but picked up an identical bike a while back.


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## kccomet (Jun 27, 2021)

was wondering when someone was going to start a thread on post copake. nothing in the balloons interested me. they did have some nice road bikes. I liked the gloria, and the gerbi which I got neither. Shawn that gerbi had your name on it, I thought you would be the buyer on it. as always I thought there were a few deals, but overall I think most bought strong money. I did end up buying two bikes


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## cyclingday (Jun 27, 2021)

Anybody know what the Nebo/New Haven handlebar clock went for?



Just curious.


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## Vintagebikenut (Jun 27, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> Anybody know what the Nebo/New Haven handlebar clock went for?
> View attachment 1437185
> Just curious.



I was watching it but went for way more than I expected. Plus the fee's.


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## cyclingday (Jun 27, 2021)

Alright!
Thanks, for the update.
Much appreciated!


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## Robertriley (Jun 28, 2021)

I'm with you Shawn, it was pretty lackluster.  I picked up something small I needed and something to resell but really wasn't into it at all.  I'm ready for next years or another SoCal Benn Swap


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## locomotion (Jun 30, 2021)

results are in








						29th Annual Bicycle Auction | Copake Auction Inc.
					

Buy At Auction. Colnago Men's Bicycle, Rare 1889 Psycho Safety Tandem, Vintage Columbia Banner, 19th c. Boneshaker, Masi Men's Bicycle, Cyclometer, Viner Men's Bicycle, Safety Bicycle Inkwell, 1892 Columbia Bicycle Poster, 1911 Iver Johnson Truss Frame Bicycle, C. 1890's Clipper High Wheel...




					copakeauction.hibid.com
				




this one stumped me :
"C. 1935 Ingo-Bike, MFG. by Ingersoll Division of Borg Warner Co., designed to achieve perpetual motion with it's off set hub rear wheel. Nice restored condition."

IMO, a poor restoration when you closely look at the pictures,  sold for : *Price Realized:* *3,894.00 USD*

Who are the bidders? and why aren't they coming to the for sale section on here instead?


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## lgrinnings (Jun 30, 2021)

locomotion said:


> results are in
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I may have dreamed this but I think I recall that this particular Ingo belonged to the Ingersoll family. Like getting Ignaz’s personal Schwinn. I can’t think of any other reason for the exorbitant hammer price.


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## locomotion (Jun 30, 2021)

**shameful advertising*
to whoever the buyer/bidders of lot 312, I have a two identical little trikes that I would sell. *Price Realized:590.00 USD* 
and
to whoever the buyer/bidders of lot 595, I have three of them, also for sale!  *Price Realized:177.00 USD*


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## Freqman1 (Jul 1, 2021)

Copake brings together a diverse group of buyers who may not be 'regulars'. The auction atmosphere seems to drive prices higher as I think some either get caught in the moment or develop a "I won't lose attitude". I hope Copake is still going strong  when it comes time to let go of my collection--I see a whole summer in Europe! BTW if you have a LiveAucioneer login you can see all prices realized and I expect they should be up on the Copake site soon if they aren't already. V/r Shawn


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## Hastings (Jul 1, 2021)

I was shocked about this. Weren’t all those ROG signs modern reproductions?


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## ccmerz (Jul 1, 2021)

With all auctions, rational thought is replaced by emotion in all it's complex forms.....


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## New Mexico Brant (Jul 2, 2021)

Hastings said:


> I was shocked about this. Weren’t all those ROG signs modern reproductions?
> 
> View attachment 1439123



Yes, and it was shocking to me that detail was never mentioned in any of the listings.


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## Hastings (Jul 2, 2021)

I just think that’s bad form. If not fraud.  I don’t like how they were spaced out in the auction, covered in dust and shuffled in between authentic items. Yeah I get the whole “buyer beware” but they are a reputable company…not some shady eBay seller. Yes they took pictures of the backs but that could represent a lot of things.. reframed, restored, from a museum etc. I understand with bicycles things can be unintentionally overlooked. You have to be a historian to know what’s what in most cases…but a stack of reproduction signs is a stack of reproduction signs.


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## Phallon1 (Jul 2, 2021)

Hastings said:


> I just think that’s bad form. If not fraud.  I don’t like how they were spaced out in the auction, covered in dust and shuffled in between authentic items. Yeah I get the whole “buyer beware” but they are a reputable company…not some shady eBay seller. Yes they took pictures of the backs but that could represent a lot of things.. reframed, restored, from a museum etc. I understand with bicycles things can be unintentionally overlooked. You have to be a historian to know what’s what in most cases…but a stack of reproduction signs is a stack of reproduction signs.



Spaced out and "covered in dust", ?, with all due respect, we called them decorative and any bidder that inquired was told they were not old, we use the term decorative for items that are not old, they were high quality well done signs and brought prices that reproductions bring, they would have brought thousands if they were old signs and we would have called them antique etc.., certainly on no level do we try and get things over on anybody, we would never consider doing something like that.


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## Phallon1 (Jul 2, 2021)

Phallon1 said:


> Spaced out and "covered in dust", ?, with all due respect, we called them decorative and any bidder that inquired was told they were not old, we use the term decorative for items that are not old, they were high quality well done signs and brought prices that reproductions bring, they would have brought thousands if they were old signs and we would have called them antique etc.., certainly on no level do we try and get things over on anybody, we would never consider doing something like that.



Also the guy that bought that Columbia sign is a friend of ours and was well aware of its age, he wanted it to hang above his bicycle.


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## Hastings (Jul 2, 2021)

If the auction said reproduction and the signs were placed near each other they would have sold for substantially less than what they did. I feel that they were misrepresented.


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## Phallon1 (Jul 2, 2021)

Hastings said:


> If the auction said reproduction and the signs were placed near each other they would have sold for substantially less than what they did. I feel that they were misrepresented.
> 
> View attachment 1439591


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## Phallon1 (Jul 2, 2021)

My buyers were pleased with them and haven't had a complaint yet about them. I respect your opinion but trust me we don't try and deceive anyone on any level, our reputation stands for itself.


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## Archie Sturmer (Jul 2, 2021)

Hastings said:


> If the signs were placed near each other they would have sold for substantially less.



If the items were marked “*for* *free*” they would have gone for substantially less.

But, like other sales practices (clustering), why would anyone choose to do so.

Sellers are always asking me, “how can I sell my stuff to you for substantially less”.


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## griff831 (Jul 3, 2021)

_This being my first full Copake as a bike nerd, I felt like a guilty sports-loving husband trying to stay glued to my phone while my family made due without my full attention .  I tried to involve them a bit, even bought my wife a bicycle, but I was having the time of my life seeing what people thought was valuable in the bicycle world.

Also, I posted all my pre-bids through Hi-Bid, but all of them were outbid!  I was thankful for LiveAuctioneers, which allowed me to snab three lots for items I hadn’t even planned on.  Just was surprised how low the price was on these and wanted in on the action.  All in all, I really enjoyed the couple weeks of catalog searching, preview video, and full 7hr auction Saturday.  I would love to participate in the live auction, swap meet, and 10 mile ride in the future.  But for a dad with young kids, I’ll have to think up an elaborate Hudson valley family vacation to enjoy it these next 10-18 years!  Hah, good show, guys!_


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## bikejunk (Jul 3, 2021)

Anyone of those signs if real would be 2,000 each  _ they were really nice reproduction signs not that tin repro flea market crap


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## pelletman (Jul 5, 2021)

Seth, I am of the opinion if it is a reproduction and you know it, it should clearly be marked reproduction.


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## bikebozo (Jul 6, 2021)

Anyone could see they were reproduction , they were similar in finish and design , Seth and Mike do a great job , it is everyone's own trip to research the items they want to buy ,. My opinion...... , I have hit it big with my knowledge , I have lost big time with no knowledge and  the auction , passion of purchase


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## Schwinny (Jul 19, 2021)

Just saw this thread at the bottom of another I was looking at and after reading through it.... I am compelled to add .2c
Personally I would never buy anything in an on-line auction, sight unseen. I really dislike being disappointed, and that, for me is the first step to disappointment.
But the reason I am compelled is the complaints about the repro signs and the answers / excuses given for those complaints. I see two problems initially and a third as happenstance.
One is that reproduction signs weren't marked as such. The reply being that they were marked as "decorative."
Plain and simple, this is lies of omission and mis-direction for profit. Because some people know the difference and no-one has complained is no justification and hardly an excuse.
We ALL know that if they were marked as such, they wouldn't have brought as much by the very fact that the word reproduction was used. This is offhanded and on the verge of greedy shyster. Its what you can expect at a used car lot from a greasy salesman.
2nd, Having these in an online auction makes it even more suspect.
3rd, Making an excuse that everyone is doing it, not seeing an issue that concerns you as a money collecting seller, and giving an attitude to buyers, potential buyers, and future buyers that everything is "Buyer beware" when dealing with you is... beyond the pale in my estimation of how to sell goods and services.

Im not talking out my ass. I retired early at 45yo. by running my 10 year old business with unfailing integrity. I can even boast that I've had _unhappy customers_ recommend me. I gave away several high dollar jobs for free because of hiccups that appeared. There is NOTHING better than a spotless record and squeaky clean name.

Me seeing this post and being concerned is what proves my point.
Not being a current buyer/seller makes no difference.
I have the means and the bug, that's all seller needs.
But as a potential future buyer/seller, Im now turned off.

A sellers answer should never be an excuse for bad behavior, It is "what can I do to make it better, NOW _and_ next time."

Although I've thought of it, and participated a few times in other auctions, such as buying and selling cars at the Barrett/Jackson Scottsdale auction for several years in the past. If this is all standard practice in the Bike biz, I guess I won't be a buyer or a seller there.


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## Late To The Party (Jul 23, 2021)

Many fine art auction catalogs have a glossary that defines terms used in the descriptions.  Such as "signed" which is totally different from "by". "Signed" is suspect "by" is affirmative of authorship.  You need to understand the lingo to know what you are bidding on.  "Decorative" would thus be known as not an original or antique as the word "period" would convey.  They did nothing wrong the buyer, or in this case readers/followers of the sale were ignorant of standard auction practices and wording.


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## bikebozo (Jul 23, 2021)

Hastings said:


> I was shocked about this. Weren’t all those ROG signs modern reproductions?
> View attachment 1439123


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## Schwinny (Jul 23, 2021)

Late To The Party said:


> Many fine art auction catalogs have a glossary that defines terms used in the descriptions.  Such as "signed" which is totally different from "by". "Signed" is suspect "by" is affirmative of authorship.  You need to understand the lingo to know what you are bidding on.  "Decorative" would thus be known as not an original or antique as the word "period" would convey.  They did nothing wrong the buyer, or in this case readers/followers of the sale were ignorant of standard auction practices and wording.



I'd have to respectfully call bullpoop.
If these terms, verbiage and their meanings were spelled out on a form one must read and sign before being given a number to bid in person, or as a rider one must acknowledge before being allowed to bid online, then yes, it is the buyers issue.
If not, it is omission. Plain and simple. Omission in any sales or service situation is greasy to say the least. And an underhanded way to apply "standard" greed practices.

Going a little further that the situation here dictates.....
Being ripped off or mis-directed is not dues to pay.
These things are also not a badge of honor or level of "time-in" the hobby for those that nod knowingly and want to present themselves as above or beyond these things because they now know better.
Should someone that feels slighted just take it, and then wait around for the next "newbie" to take it in the shorts so they can feel better about their own situation?
 No.
Im sorry for all the people that think that way, that were ripped off and perhaps were told that, and then sat by waiting for the next sucker so they could dole out their benevolence speech.
To allow it is to perpetuate it. To perpetuate it is to be a part of it.

What will end up happening is that the hobby will get full of old people happy with their "time-in" and watching the newbies get fleeced. They will be flippant about it and give all the time honored excuses for bad behavior. New people to the hobby will be turned away and those old people will leave a grip of bikes to their families in their estates that will be liquidated for pennies on the dollar, literally.
The old bikes will represent those old people, and no-one will care because together they represent a by-gone era of:
Your fault
You get what you get
So-what
You shoulda
They shoulda
Too bad

And it really is too bad.

I will add, that it seems this is what happened here with the fiberglass tank issue. A liquidation of bikes to someone that knew little or nothing about them and then passed them on to remaining oldsters and up and comings.
If I were the auction house, everyone would get ALL their money back, including shipping both ways. The slighted would get a large credit for the next sale and the original owner of the bike would keep their bike after paying some kind of price for mis representation.
I think the time-in factor includes the knowledge that the 3k we put into a bike will never come back out of it. That 3k keeps us busy, places us on a Status ladder and satisfies our OCD and peacock tendencies.
If we think they are "investments" we are plain stupid. Some people do make out well, but most don't.
Little gold bricks to be cashed in later in life perhaps, but a bike is what it is, and it's nothing but greedy nonsense when someone is directed to find out otherwise.


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