# Teens/20's motobike frame. Help ID..



## SKPC (Jan 16, 2019)

What is this?  28".  Elgin style sprocket.  Stiletto cranks.  Curved non-welded Truss rods.  Stumped.
Frame side view..










24 tooth Elgin-like...



Chain and Seat stays are "flatted" on the inside front to back...



#417132


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## hoofhearted (Jan 16, 2019)




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## sam (Jan 16, 2019)

The way the rear stays and fork ends are joined looks pierce style


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## SKPC (Jan 16, 2019)

Walthour Hood images found!.   (Emblem made or is WH a diff factory?) Seems these may have been used on decks of WWII ships...
Exact match headset/fork/t-rods & fat seat post...Chainring on mine looks swapped in....Trumpet mouth 2nd top tube  is similar but not exact..
Images from thecabe threads....


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## Archie Sturmer (Jan 17, 2019)

Maybe not so Elgin related, nor changed-out, but perhaps Emblem and Walt Hood Heavy Service.
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/sprocket-compilation-pic-heavy.41683/page-8#post-913538
Take a good look at the offset of the drive pin, might be about 2" center to center.
Then measure the crank thread diameters, might also be 1/16" fatter than more common cranks.

There are Emblem (mfgr.) and W&H (retail/wholesale) pictures on this site, (some from a catalog sold by an important  member), that show various Emblem chain rings, and the 4-square like yours on various models, at different times; even the motobike frame (114) was sold as a Heavy Service model.  Emblem was 1 of few frames with a 3/4" (smaller) truss bar on its curved truss and motobike frames.  The kinked truss rods and lower support plate (or offset arms) of the fork assembly are also Emblem features, the rear stays as well. 
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1930’s-bike-frame-fork-28”.143944/
The different joint details (squared versus rounder) may simply be cost-improved methods.

WRT *Emblem *Angola NY bikes, it seems that a Buffalo company that they acquired gets much of the attention for some reason.

A shipyard bike, (unlike a factory bike), never begets a question like, "so, did grampa ride his bike on the ships gramma?" - ya, right kid, sure he did.


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## SKPC (Jan 17, 2019)

Thank you @hoofhearted for clues and @Archie Sturmer for even more.  I came across your (AS) Sprocket Compilation post while searching for the sprocket.  It *is* a 2" distance between crank and drive pin centerlines, and the hanger threads are larger on the now-unusable crank. (see below) Your Pierce/Emblem comment regarding nose-thumbing by Pierce enthusiasts of Emblem manufactured bikes may be that these collectors avoid or dislike association with bankruptcies?(Pierce-1918 purchased by Emblem)
     A few interesting features of this frame & parts are as follows. 24, not 26 tooth sprocket, 18" frame(seat tube),  3-1/2"(shorter than others) Head Tube,  and these not-seen-anywhere-I look  "Flatted" seat and chain stays, where all 4 stays are completely flatted on the inside,_ crank hanger to dropouts _and it looks factory.  As to "heavy service"?   You can say that again....this frame and fork alone weigh a ton...


 Walthour & Hood   Scout Model 114-Emblem Heavy service below.  Not the same frame, fork, crank, or t-rods...



I am beginning to wonder if this was a Pierce-badged late-teens motobike?  Or an early Emblem-made with purchased Pierce inventory in the 20's....


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## hoofhearted (Jan 17, 2019)

SKPC said:


> Thank you @hoofhearted for clues *(.......)* I am beginning to wonder if
> this was a Pierce-badged late-teens motobike?  Or an early Emblem-made ..





*You are very welcome, young man.*

..... patric


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## Archie Sturmer (Jan 17, 2019)

Pierce badges would fit a head tube that was "pierced" differently - diagonal holes.
An example of another (newer? post-war) badge that might not quite fit your bike, with the side holes, (larger than Westfield fasteners).




SKPC said:


> regarding nose-thumbing by Pierce enthusiasts



I did not mean to infer that the Emblem product line was treated like a *dog *- just that finding Emblem information may entail sifting through more voluminous George N. Pierce related clutter.  It does not help that the noun, "emblem" is also a bicycle accessory.


Another example (although a curved truss model) of a W&H Heavy Service, believed to be Emblem-built; maybe buy the entire catalog to find out(?).

I also like the Emblem "sand-dollar" (or 5-loops) chain ring, but do not have high expectations.



SKPC said:


> the now-unusable crank



So, any plans for any of those special oversize cones, or 24 tooth chain ring, that only fit the oversize cranks?


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## BatWaves (Jan 17, 2019)

@Dave Stromberger 
Here’s that sprocket... Emblem?


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## SKPC (Jan 17, 2019)

A few more details. You of course never know if any of these parts came with this partial bike, but perhaps. Maybe so.
Fenders..






Fork & Headset..







Crank & Headset hardware..



Motobike-Tan with primer is under Blue under Red repaints, and looks to be difficult to bring  back, but I will do my best.  If  I shouldn't try, let me know.


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## SKPC (Mar 7, 2019)

After looking deep into the threads, it seems 2B late 20's to early 30's Emblem made Pierce.   This frame is strange and I have not seen another and cannot find much about it, and it appears in no ads.   Unusual fat 1-1/8" seat, top and down tubes, r-offset crank hanger, pierce drops, Emblem & Pierce parts.
     The serial # (417132) is stamped on the bottom of the Crankcase, which is unusual. Falls into the late 20's to early 30's period.  I have seen early 30's examples of Emblems posted here with a higher 6-digit number on the top of the crankcase.   I am now leaning towards my bike being a Pierce-Emblem made frame badged for another company like Wathour Hood?  Could also be Emblem badged with the 2" distant horizontal badge holes.  Thanks for all the help looking closer by those in the know.....
     Continuing to work on the original Blue Emblem paint bring-back.  Still looking for a lower headset cup,  truss rod bracket (could fix it), Emblem badge, and a diamond peaked crank with 2" drive pin spacing.


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