# Three Crown Questions - Year, Badge, And Hubs?



## Brian R. (Apr 6, 2016)

I bought this bike with no head badge. The best guess is that it is a Crown by Great Western Mfg, due to the cutouts in the bottom bracket and Fauber crank set. I've been researching Crowns on this site and discovered that GWM made the Fauber crank set, so that makes sense. I also found photos of a Crown that seems to have the same frame construction and headset. If you think it's not a Crown but something else, please reply! Ignore the seat and front fender, as I believe they are not original to this bike.

1. What year or year range was this bike made by Great Western?

2. Which design of Crown badge was mostly likely on this bike originally? There is one tiny screw near the top front of the head tube, and I cannot find any other screw holes (but a second one might be hidden under rust). A photo would be great if you have one!

3. What make of hub brake and front hub were on this bike when new? Mine has a Hercules hub brake made by Canada Cycle and Motor (CCM), which is clearly not the correct one.

If you have parts for this bike that you are willing to sell, like a head badge, hub brake, front hub, handlebar stem, and handlebars, please contact me.


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## Brian R. (Apr 6, 2016)

I found this photo of a Cyrus by Great Western. The fork crown, just visible, is the same as mine, and other photos of that bike show the same frame construction. When I look at the photo of the bare head tube on my bike, either it's my imagination or I can almost see the outline of a letter C like the one on that badge. But C stands for Crown too.


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## boardhoarder (Apr 6, 2016)

I have a Crown that has the same badge as the Cyrus you posted above, but mine says 'Crown'


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## Brian R. (Apr 6, 2016)

Do you know the year of your bike? I found your post with that bike, thanks. I saw those photos earlier and saved the photo of the head badge, but noted the fork crown was different. I hope to figure out if the difference in the fork crown is explained by either a different year or different model.


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## locomotion (Apr 7, 2016)

before moving forward Brian, I would suggest you clean the headtube and try to find the second headbadge hole
and take measurements
it will be a better starting point than going all over the place with this, IMO
Great Western had all kinds of different headbadges during that period maybe there are differences in the distance between the holes!!!


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## boardhoarder (Apr 7, 2016)

Glad you found the thread on my Crown, Brian.

You want to try sending a private message to member CrownKing. I don't think he's on here much, but he did respond to me right away and was able to give me some good info on my bike.

Here's a little blurb from some of the info he sent me, which you might find interesting:

_This is a very nice original untouched example, as many have mentioned already. Congrats on the find! It is always exciting to me as the historian for this factory to see such a fine early example, especially one that is relatively unmolested. This would date from 1900-1905+. Not much visual documentation exists from this early period. This company was originally called the Crown Cycle Company, so after the merger took place(1898/99) to Great Western, Crown was their flagship model. Cyrus was a name that was used in the early days of the factory and the Cyrus badge shares this same design. There were 7 different Crown badge designs over the span of the company's 30-year production. This bike sports one of the first 2._

Good luck with yours, it's a nice one.


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## Brian R. (Apr 7, 2016)

Hi Boardhoarder - while you were typing your reply I was taking sandpaper to the head tube in search of that second badge screw hole, as per Locomotion's advice. I found it, a broken off screw that had blended in with the other rust. It's exactly 3 inches from the top screw. Can you measure your big letter C badge please and tell me the distance between the screws? I did PM CrownKing a few days ago, but no reply as of yet. It is a nice bike. The focus of my collection is Canadian-made bikes, but I've made 3 exceptions, a Flo-Cycle, a '57 Columbia original paint, and this one. It's hard to explain why, but it's a beautiful bike. I plan to restore it to its former glory - but I need parts!


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## locomotion (Apr 8, 2016)

3" i will also check Brian on mine
I also tried reaching the CrownKing, but didn't get a reply
and the info on the brand is hard to find, not much online


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## boardhoarder (Apr 8, 2016)

Brian, I went to measure my head badge hole spacing and just noticed for the first time that the holes are side-by-side, rather than vertical. Clearly, I'm not very observant. Ha.

Anyway, that's a difference that I hadn't noticed between my badge and the Cyrus badge...I'd originally thought were exactly the same. See the thread on my Crown for photos of the badge.

Oh, and in case anyone is interested, hole spacing is 2 3/16"


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## bricycle (Apr 8, 2016)

Shallow fenders like that were all pretty much 1919 and earlier


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## tommydale1950 (Apr 8, 2016)

bricycle said:


> Shallow fenders like that were all pretty much 1919 and earlier





Brian R. said:


> Hi Boardhoarder - while you were typing your reply I was taking sandpaper to the head tube in search of that second badge screw hole, as per Locomotion's advice. I found it, a broken off screw that had blended in with the other rust. It's exactly 3 inches from the top screw. Can you measure your big letter C badge please and tell me the distance between the screws? I did PM CrownKing a few days ago, but no reply as of yet. It is a nice bike. The focus of my collection is Canadian-made bikes, but I've made 3 exceptions, a Flo-Cycle, a '57 Columbia original paint, and this one. It's hard to explain why, but it's a beautiful bike. I plan to restore it to its former glory - but I need parts!


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## tommydale1950 (Apr 8, 2016)

Brian , here are a couple photos of my Crown circa 12/15 .Hope it helps Tom


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## bricycle (Apr 8, 2016)

Well I'll be.... usually those Fauber chain wheels are 1/2" pitch......


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## locomotion (Apr 13, 2016)

my Crown badge headbadge holes are 2 3/4" apart


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## fordmike65 (Apr 13, 2016)

locomotion said:


> my Crown badge headbadge holes are 2 3/4" apart



Me too


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## bricycle (Apr 14, 2016)

fordmike65 said:


> Me too



looks more like 2 11/16"


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## bricycle (Apr 14, 2016)

tommydale1950 said:


> Brian , here are a couple photos of my Crown circa 12/15 .Hope it helps Tom
> 
> View attachment 303340
> 
> ...




looks like 2 13/16"


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## Brian R. (Apr 15, 2016)

Thanks everyone for your input. The distance between the screw holes on my mystery bike is 3 inches. If anyone who reads this has a suitable Great Western badge they could sell, please contact me. I pm'd the owner of the Cyrus asking him for the measurement of that badge but he hasn't replied as of yet. I'd love to know as it looks like it could be 3".

Nobody has expressed an opinion on GW hubs. I read somewhere a reference to New Departure Model A, so that's what I'll go with unless I hear otherwise. I'm still looking for a year as well. My best guess is c.1910. GW bikes from the mid to late teens have a top tube that curves downward toward the seat tube. This one is straight. I'll post a photo.


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## Balloontyre (May 4, 2016)

The badgebadge shown in post #12 is post 1917. The earlier version has the letters "Crown" coming down through the scroll under the name.
View attachment 312791


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## Brian R. (May 6, 2016)

That's interesting, thanks. I never would have noticed if you hadn't pointed that out. I'm guessing your badge does not measure 3" between the holes, right? - probably 2 5/8 or 2 3/4. I placed an ad for a Great Western badge (of any nameplate) with 3" hole spacing in the wanted to buy section, but haven't received any replies. I'm concerned I'll never be able to get the right badge for this frame. ugh.


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## Brian R. (Oct 12, 2016)

I'm still looking for a badge, and I have an update which unfortunately broadens the search for the identity of this bike instead of narrowing it. When I bought the bike it had a first generation Hercules hub brake. These were made by CCM (Canada Cycle and Motor) from 1908 until 1917. My first thought was that someone had used a locally available Canadian hub or wheel to repair an American bike. Since then, however, I have found three wood-rim, Toronto-built bikes with Hercules brakes: a Planet and two Hyslops. The Hercules Brake also appears in the 1922 Hyslop catalogue. My bike has a Fauber crank set, but low and behold, Fauber crank sets were also available in the 1922 Hyslop catalogue, and can be seen as early as 1900 in the Rice and Lewis (Toronto retailer) accessory catalogue. It's possible that a Canadian company imported frames from Great Western, assembled them with Canadian and American parts and put on their own head badge. If I can find a GW brand badge with 3 inches between the holes, I'll install it and call it an American bike. If none exist, however, I'll have to hope that I can identify the bike in Canadian trade literature and look for that brand badge. Below are pages from the 1922 Hyslop catalogue. So, if anyone has a badge from GW with 3 inches between the holes, I would love to hear from you!


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## Brian R. (Nov 21, 2016)

With thanks to Bicycleface, it looks like I have finally found the type of Great Western Badge that has 3 inch hole spacing. It's an early Crown badge. In these photos found on the 'net, if the start of the measuring tape is moved to the center of the top hole, I believe it will show the 3 inch spacing I need. Now to locate and purchase this badge!  I will update my ad in the wanted section, but if anyone reading this has one, please contact me!


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## abe lugo (Nov 21, 2016)

I believe one of those was on eBay recently. I have pre-johnsons motor Crown.  I keep a regular search on eBay.  I have seen only about 4 badges show up this year.


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## locomotion (Nov 21, 2016)

hi Brian
got 3 Great Western bikes with 3 different head badges
and you are right, that badge is close to 3" , just measured mine


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## Brian R. (Nov 6, 2019)

Update.
Here is the badge I found that I will put on this bike. I thought it was pretty cool.


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## barneyguey (Nov 6, 2019)

I have these photos.


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## Archie Sturmer (Nov 6, 2019)

Century badge, with North America on top, and South America beneath, makes me think of the Panama and the Canal.  Panama became a country in 1903.  And after the canal opened in 1914, San Diego or San Francisco held an exposition.



Later Panama became a bicycle.  The Century holes look like they are in the right places for 3" spacing.


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## Brian R. (Nov 6, 2019)

Archie Sturmer said:


> Century badge, with North America on top, and South America beneath, makes me think of the Panama and the Canal.  Panama became a country in 1903.  And after the canal opened in 1914, San Diego or San Francisco held an exposition.
> View attachment 1091782
> Later Panama became a bicycle.  The Century holes look like they are in the right places for 3" spacing.



Very cool, thanks for the explanation! Yes I believe the holes are 3" apart.


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## skiptooth (Nov 6, 2019)

Brian, I have the same problem bought a 1890's rear steer tandem from south bend ind. it has all the fauber chain rings cranks and fittings. pat.1894 the great western badges fit perfect. I'm missing fork, seats, handle bars, pedals, wheels. I saw an old ad that said g.w.mfg. made and sold fauber parts. good luck with your search ! there are some crowns on old bike check them out best of luck Richard...


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