# I could use help with a second Schwinn Superior I found



## Orange Fiets (May 22, 2021)

This morning I took a look at the following Schwinn Superior.





The SA hub states “49”.  The seller wants crazy money for it because it’s old (but has no idea how old).

It has lots of patina but the frame seems solid.

The bb serial number is B719.

What do you think?  Is it pre WWII or not?
Any additional information is very much appreciated.
Best,
Bernard 

Additional pictures can be found here.
Pictures of my other Superior (Pre WWII can be found here).


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## rennfaron (May 22, 2021)

It's prewar because of the rear fork and pretty sure pre 40'. I would have to look up all the specs but first glance...

Missing rear fender
Front fender is wrong and younger than the frame.
Brake levers are from the 60s
Light kit looks interesting, can't tell what kind.
I don't think superiors of that time got T10 pedals shown and would be a touring pedal of that era...
Stem looks mid 40s to 50s. (can't tell). A profile shot and front shot would help, but looks to me that it is a razor stem.
Wrong saddle - that is a schit saddle from the 70s/80s/90s or modern...
Rear rack would never be on a bike like this and is 70s
Bars look correct-ish but may be a later version considering how much has been changed (could have been swapped with the stem).
head badge is correct
Grips are wrong and from the 60s/70s
Chainring is wrong (I think) and few years younger than the bike
Brake lines are all later and those calipers I don't think would be on the bike of this age. Calipers look later 40s to me.
Shifter is post 63' and is not original to the bike, as it looks like it was updated with a later rear hub. Pre 63' and the graphics on the face are inset/engraved and infilled with paint.
To the point above, I would guess the wheels (rims) are not correct either. Those look like the stainless steel rims you would find on lightweights during the mid to late 40s or could be S-6s. I didn't look up the year of the frame serial but it could have had wood rims.
Obviously tires are not original and are mismatched
Everything else...looks correct-ish...  haha
Basically, that's a frame with a couple extra correct parts. The incorrect parts have value and you could recoup some to help correct the bike but the original parts carry far more value than those parts (a lot of money out of pocket to correct it).

Here would be what you are looking at for a more correct example that is the same age...


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## Orange Fiets (May 22, 2021)

Thank you so much for your reply. And so thorough. 

Did you see the additional pictures here: click link


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## rennfaron (May 22, 2021)

I was going so fast I missed the extra pics.  Just saw them and am correcting some of my notes above now that I can see more.

The link to your second superior does not link to anything...

Also, as much as I beat up on the incorrect parts, these are still VERY uncommon bikes (frames). However, it sounds like the seller needs to be pulled back to reality on the price considering what is not correct.


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## Orange Fiets (May 22, 2021)

rennfaron said:


> I was going so fast I missed the extra pics.  Just saw them and am correcting some of my notes above now that I can see more.
> 
> The link to your second superior does not link to anything...
> 
> Also, as much as I beat up on the incorrect parts, these are still VERY uncommon bikes (frames). However, it sounds like the seller needs to be pulled back to reality on the price considering what is not correct.



I know this is a subjective question but what would you find reasonable? 
And here is the correct link to the one I own (yes it’s repainted unfortunately).
Feel free to PM me if you prefer.


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## GTs58 (May 22, 2021)

That's an early 1939 model and it has been pieced back together with incorrect parts. In my eyes it's not worth much to the purists due to the paint condition and just the frame set, crank and seat post with clamp possibly being original.

Catalog image. https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCat/flschwinn_1893_1940/1939_09.html


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## rennfaron (May 22, 2021)

That's a hard question because everyone values their time/efforts differently. Also timing affects everything too, as prices have climbed over the last couple/few years. It also depends on your goal with the bike. Do you want to have it to have it and keep it like it is or do you want to try and get back to more correct condition. If the latter then you need to start adding up the grocery list of parts and that will help you determine where you need to be on the frame to make it worth the money/time/effort. You also need to consider that some of the parts will be very hard to find and/or costly to acquire. 

Here is one up on ebay that has been sitting awhile. It is a pretty darn nice example. https://www.ebay.com/itm/154316664912?campid=5335809022

Here are two others that sold within the last few years.


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## rennfaron (May 22, 2021)

Totally agree with @GTs58 but to each their own...


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## Orange Fiets (May 22, 2021)

I very much appreciate each of your help.  I sent the seller my much lower counter offer.  I do like it.  I'm in the Chicago area so I love the fact that this is a piece of local history pre WW2. I am not planning on building it all up back to original.  But you never know.


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## GTs58 (May 22, 2021)

I didn't think much of it at first since that was built back up with non original parts. Now I'm thinking it may have been a Racer model where the parts were harvested or just taken off and replaced for some reason. The fork has no fender mounting tab indicating this was not a tourist model. Or maybe the fork was replaced? I wonder if there is any trace of the hat in ring seat tube decal left or if it never had one.


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## Orange Fiets (May 22, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> I didn't think much of it at first since that was built back up with none original parts. Now I'm thinking it may have been a Racer model where the parts were harvested or just taken off and replaced for some reason. The fork has no fender mounting tab indicating this was not a tourist model. Or maybe the fork was replaced? I wonder if there is any trace of the hat in ring seat tube decal left or if it never had one.



I could not find any decal traces on the seat or down tube. As I mentioned above I own a racer already. The forks appear to be the same with the exception that this one includes a front brake, whereas my mine is not drilled for it. But of course they could have done that after to make it work.  Also it includes pin striping so I'm sure it's original.


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## Orange Fiets (May 29, 2021)

I finally picked it up. I’ll post pics later today. And I confirmed it’s definitely a racer.


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## Alan Brase (May 29, 2021)

Orange Fiets said:


> I finally picked it up. I’ll post pics later today. And I confirmed it’s definitely a racer.



Waiting to learn more! I would agree with everything you said so far. But B serial means 1939, I think. FWIW, my gut feeling is that these are much rarer than Paramounts. And I suspect they were brazed by the same few brazers in probably the same jigs. Would that have been someone named Wastyn? Seems like fitting the miters and the actual brazing might have taken a bit more skill than using the very expensive for the time, lug set. Catalog shows Paramount frame at $30, Superior at $20. I think the Paramount tube set might have been more expensive, also.  I have a similar condition 1940 in original but chipped burgundy. Tourer model but one ancient brake caliper. Nice find. Chicago history.


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## Jim sciano (May 29, 2021)

Orange Fiets said:


> I finally picked it up. I’ll post pics later today. And I confirmed it’s definitely a racer.



Can I ask what you paid. Definitely was a steep asking price.


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## Orange Fiets (May 29, 2021)

So this the condition how I picked it up last night. 




last night and this morning I tore it all apart. One cotter is a bit stubborn.









Additional pictures can be found here.


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## Orange Fiets (May 29, 2021)

Now if I could just get this darn cotter pin out...


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## Orange Fiets (May 29, 2021)

Once I’m able to remove the cotter pin and clean up the white one I’ll do a frame comparison between both 1939 Superior Racer frames. There definitely are some.


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## Alan Brase (May 29, 2021)

Things like this and EVERY single bolt on my rusty VW buses make me think I should invest in an induction spot heater. Surely don't want to put a torch ANYWHERE near that baby.  But a tiny bit of heat would probably help. Anybody else bought such a heater or researched it?


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## Orange Fiets (May 29, 2021)

As promised a comparison between the repainted blue Schwinn Superior Racer with serial number B487 and white/cream Schwinn Superior Racer with serial number B791.

The two main differences:
1. Rear brake bridge




2. drilled vs non drilled fork (rear)




The blue front brake indeed is drilled.




Other pictures of both frames (I cleaned up the white frame) can be found here.


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## Orange Fiets (May 29, 2021)

I just noticed the fixed bb cup is branded as Bayliss Wiley.


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## Jim sciano (May 29, 2021)

Orange Fiets said:


> As promised a comparison between the repainted blue Schwinn Superior Racer with serial number B487 and white/cream Schwinn Superior Racer with serial number B791.
> 
> The two main differences:
> 1. Rear brake bridge
> ...



I wonder if the blue repainted bike had caliper mount brazed on at a later date. Is there by chance a hole on the bottom of that support? My early paramount had the hole drilled vertically and not horizontally, making it difficult to get a caliper mounted.


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## GTs58 (May 30, 2021)

At the beginning I was thinking this piece was a Tourist model due to the way it was set up having caliper brakes, tourist bars, stem etc.. It was originally a Racer and the fork and frame display that. No rear brazed on fender stay mounting tabs on the seat stays along with fork. Seems the fork, seat stay bridge and chain stay bridge have been drilled for fenders and brake calipers, the Racer was not set up or drilled for these accessories. This Racer that is currently for sale does not have the hat in ring decal either but the Blue one that Bob Snyder sold did have the seat tube decal. 






Bobs 38 Racer
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1938-schwinn-superior-track-bike.162938/


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## Orange Fiets (May 30, 2021)

Jim sciano said:


> I wonder if the blue repainted bike had caliper mount brazed on at a later date. Is there by chance a hole on the bottom of that support? My early paramount had the hole drilled vertically and not horizontally, making it difficult to get a caliper mounted. View attachment 1420709



A very small hole below.




Same on the white frame.


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## Orange Fiets (May 30, 2021)

I bet these frames originally came predrilled, giving the customer full options to do whatever.


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## olds394 (May 30, 2021)

Great thread


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## GTs58 (May 30, 2021)

That small hole in the fender bridge was a pre-drilled pilot hole that was drilled when those pieces were made and then over bored for the fender screw. The Racers appear to never having that hole over bored for a fender screw. And I could be wrong, but the pre war Superior, Paramount and New World Racers were never equipped with fenders or brakes. Making one of these old Racer models to where it could be ridden places other than on a track, it would make sense to equip the bike with some kind of braking capability. If going with the caliper brakes the original wood rims would have to be replaced with plated metal rims and then modify the frame slightly for the mounting of the calipers. The Webb brakes or expander brakes were used on the 39 Superior tourists when it was equipped with the freewheel rear hub.


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## ccdc.1 (May 31, 2021)

Alan Brase said:


> Waiting to learn more! I would agree with everything you said so far. But B serial means 1939, I think. FWIW, my gut feeling is that these are much rarer than Paramounts. And I suspect they were brazed by the same few brazers in probably the same jigs. Would that have been someone named Wastyn? Seems like fitting the miters and the actual brazing might have taken a bit more skill than using the very expensive for the time, lug set. Catalog shows Paramount frame at $30, Superior at $20. I think the Paramount tube set might have been more expensive, also.  I have a similar condition 1940 in original but chipped burgundy. Tourer model but one ancient brake caliper. Nice find. Chicago history.



Not sure about the comparisons between Superiors and Paramounts regarding rarity...originally, it would appear many more Superiors were made; whether as many survive is worth considering. I have seen at least two first-generation Superior serial numbers above B10000 (and the first generation probably stopped at WWII and were supplanted by the post-war Continental), while first-run Paramounts topped out at A999, and even adding the PXXX and XXX Paramount serials, it is very likely less than 3000 Paramounts were built between 1938 and 1958. Now, the Paramount was a special order item, and probably more kept and cared-for than the Superior, so there may be more early Paramounts still around; Schwinn seemed to have a rent-a-Superior program for their dealers, so they probably produced more of them and they were less revered and looked-after than Paramounts. Both are worthwhile for your collection, and I have liked my Superiors (still have one) but the ride was a bit less energizing than the Paramounts I have experienced.


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