# Help identify TOC block chain bicycle



## jonkuto (May 21, 2015)

Hello all - I bought this bicycle yesterday and need some help trying to identify the manufacturer. I bought the bike out of North West, Ohio. I've discovered that the Kells saddle was produced in Cleveland, Ohio. The pedals have "Phillips Made in England" engraved on the sides facing towards the bottom bracket. There is a frame number engraved on the right side of the frame where the seat post is attached (I can only make out a 6 and a 9). The matching tires have Penn Arrow on them. The wooden rims are matching. There are no other identifying marks on the bicycle. I do know that the handlebars are on backwards.  Thanks in advance for any information about this very special bicycle!


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## bricycle (May 21, 2015)

Looks like one I have.... no maker either. Does it have 4 badge holes?


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## Wheeled Relics (May 21, 2015)

badge holes might help ID. Straight back dropouts, buncha different manf used that chainring, could be local to the area though? Which makers were around there?

Bars still turned over from the Scorcher dayz. Decent complete high frame. Hit me up if you wanna sell it.


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## jonkuto (May 21, 2015)

I thought so too - Problem is there aren't any holes where a badge would have been. Not sure which bikes were built around Sandusky, Ohio. The original owner was the post master for a city called "Venice, Ohio". He would bike around and have people through up glass bottles, he would than ride and shoot them with his gun (at least that's what I've been told "


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## Wheeled Relics (May 21, 2015)

haha great stories! so that makes it a transfer/decal badge bike. Lots of manf didn't use badges before 1900 but instead it would have been a decal as a front piece. Love the color. If I had to I would date it 1895/6 because of the headset, lugging, dropouts, crank size, chainring and decal badge. Fork crown might help ID as well, neat geometry. Don't forget about me if you want to move it along.


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## jonkuto (May 21, 2015)

Thanks for the info! - I also thought it would be around those dates. The previous owner said he had original pictures of the owner on the bicycle - maybe from the photos I can see the transfer badge. Just have to wait to recieve them. What would this bike be considered? It's not a safety. Pneumatic block chain? Thanks again for all the info/advice!


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## Wheeled Relics (May 21, 2015)

technically and someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is a pneumatic safety, i'm not sure when roller chain first came into use.


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## jonkuto (May 21, 2015)




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## jonkuto (May 21, 2015)

saddle is very crusty - hope to get that restored. I've included more photos to help identify the bike (sorry some are sideways). I've done a lot of research but have not found the answer, what exactly defines a safety bicycle? Thanks Jon


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## josehuerta (May 21, 2015)

Are pedal axle threads 9/16" or 1/2"?


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## Wheeled Relics (May 21, 2015)

A safety bicycle is a type of bicycle that became very popular beginning in the late 1880s as an alternative to the penny-farthing or ordinary and is now the most common type of bicycle. Early bicycles of this style were known as safety bicycles because they were noted for, and marketed as, being safer than the high wheelers. Even though modern bicycles use a similar design, the term is rarely used today, and may be considered obsolete, but we use obsolete terms here.


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## jpromo (May 22, 2015)

jonkuto said:


> saddle is very crusty - hope to get that restored. I've included more photos to help identify the bike (sorry some are sideways). I've done a lot of research but have not found the answer, what exactly defines a safety bicycle? Thanks Jon




I wouldn't replace the covering on that seat; it's in nice condition all things considered. I swear by Pecard Antique leather dressing. Rub in a liberal coat every couple days for a few weeks. It will absorb and rehydrate the leather as well as bring back its original color.


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## jkent (May 22, 2015)

jpromo said:


> I wouldn't replace the covering on that seat; it's in nice condition all things considered. I swear by Pecard Antique leather dressing. Rub in a liberal coat every couple days for a few weeks. It will absorb and rehydrate the leather as well as bring back its original color.




I was about to say the same thing about the saddle. Man it would be a shame to see someting that nice be discarded or recovered. Concidering that the saddle is 100+ years old it looks to be in exceptional shape. I have seen a whole lot worst be refeered to a good condition.
I will buy your saddle and you can go buy another one that has already been recovered.
JKent


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## bricycle (May 22, 2015)

Post some more pics of the saddle, and heck, I may even trade you a Recovered one just like it. (just had some done)


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## carlitos60 (May 22, 2015)

Just My 2 cents!!!

Since During the 1890s, That Same Type of Frame May Have Wore Many Different Brand Badges or Decals; You Need More Specific Info from the Seller!!! Pictures???
Manufacturers Changed the Fork and Crack Assembly Based on Who the BRAND or Distributor Was!!!!

Good Luck!!


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## Wheeled Relics (May 22, 2015)

There's nothing wrong with the saddle. No cracks, splitting or damage. Leave it on your bike. Self interest aside (yes I'd buy the whole bike not just the saddle) some empathetic considerations for your old bicycle come to mind.

1. Conditioning your saddle. NO - at this point is is purely cosmetic, the bike is not rideable; it will effect the value of the bike in the negative. If and when it's conditioned, do so after deciding how to preserve the WHOLE BIKE; not just the saddle. This has to do with BOTH conservationism AND aesthetic. For example: how cheesy to sell or trade that saddle out and still be stuck with flipped up plastic grips on an 1890's high frame, and a "doner" conditioned saddle that isn't original; take my advise, keep the saddle it came with. Do a search on "Kell's" or "Kell Saddle" in the for sale forum and see how many show up in the search results. 

2. Swapping saddles. YES & NO - the question here is *are you going to ride this bicycle*? If YES the saddle is the LAST thing to consider, and the simplest solution is a DONOR saddle. I'm sure the helpful guys here have a saddle equally as valuable to donate to the cause, I know I do! That way u can keep your original Kell that was made locally and is most likely original to the bike, safe and sound.

3. For DISPLAY OR RIDING ? If for DISPLAY treat everything with tenderness and care; it is only original once; once u make a change, even if u believe it is for the best for the bike, it can't be undone. If for RIDING the first thing to consider is the drive train, and then TIRES (if the wheels are suitable.) lastly the grips and the saddle.

If this is your first old bicycle, congratulations, it's a little crusty, but excellent potential no matter what you want to do with it.


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## jonkuto (May 22, 2015)




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## jonkuto (May 22, 2015)

Think there was a misunderstanding - I meant I would get a replica made of the saddle and have that reupholstered 





:o


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (May 22, 2015)

It would be smart to make several....


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## boardhoarder (May 22, 2015)

GiovanniLiCalsi said:


> It would be smart to make several....




What he said.^

I'd buy one.


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (May 22, 2015)

It would please many saddle-less Joes, out there....
There is a very serious shortage of good 120 year old saddles.


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