# Speedwell



## FSH (Sep 9, 2019)

Hello, I just picked up this vintage Speedwell bicycle.  The badge reads "Emblem manufacturing company, Angola, NY.  Serial number 479486. I have attached photos... Any help regarding year and history would be great.


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## Archie Sturmer (Sep 12, 2019)

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/emblem-manufacturing-info.125531/

Emblem bikes that I have seen do have some peculiar parts.  The *crankset *may have oversized threads and cones; the sprocket drive pin may be offset 2 inches. 
They are an odd size and challenging to obtain - just something to keep in mind with any disassembly, repairs, refurbishments, or replacements.
The headset also has unique styling, (but I'm not sure if its dimensions are special).

Also, we see 2 master links - something that might be investigated, as to the need, or cause.


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## FSH (Sep 12, 2019)

Archie Sturmer said:


> https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/emblem-manufacturing-info.125531/
> 
> Emblem bikes that I have seen do have some peculiar parts.  The *crankset *may have oversized threads and cones; the sprocket drive pin may be offset 2 inches.
> They are an odd size and challenging to obtain - just something to keep in mind with any disassembly, repairs, refurbishments, or replacements.
> ...



Thanks for the info.  There is a post regarding the history of Emblem bicycles and I will see if I can add the link.  If you had to guess what would you date this to? Thanks


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## fordmike65 (Sep 12, 2019)

Going by the bars & saddle remnants, I'd say late 20's or so.


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## FSH (Sep 12, 2019)

fordmike65 said:


> Going by the bars & saddle remnants, I'd say late 20's or so.



The saddle appears quite large.  I am going to see if there is a makers mark.


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## SKPC (Sep 12, 2019)

28"?  This bike was made after Pierce was purchased by Emblem and made in Angola after 1918ish.   The non-sculpted but pinched/brazed rear fork axle fitments were on Emblems in the early 20's on the simple diamond frames, but the 400000 number puts the bike in the late 20's early 30's? Many of the Pierce Emblems had the Pierce sculpted drops.  This bike does not, but means nothing as Emblem may have still been making the Pierce badged frames with both styles after the Pierce purchase.  This I do not know.  The 479486 number I would estimate to be in the early 30's regardless if the serial numbers now known turn out to be in order.


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## FSH (Sep 12, 2019)

SKPC said:


> 28"?  This bike was made after Pierce was purchased by Emblem in Angola in 1918ish.   The non-sculpted but pinched/brazed rear fork axle fitments were on Emblems in the early 20's on the simple diamond frames, but the 400000 number puts the bike in the late 20's early 30's? Many of the Pierce Emblems had the Pierce sculpted drops.  This bike does not, but means nothing as Emblem may have been making frames with both styles after the Pierce purchase.  The 479486 number I would estimate to be in the early 30's.



Yes, 28".  Thanks for the info


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## FSH (Sep 15, 2019)

Looks like I may have a Miami / flying Merkel chainring. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/miami-chainring-minutiae.143834/#post-965381


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## FSH (Sep 15, 2019)

I found this link for the Speedwell history here


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## Freqman1 (Sep 16, 2019)

FSH said:


> Looks like I may have a Miami / flying Merkel chainring. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/miami-chainring-minutiae.143834/#post-965381



The bike does not look Miami built to me. V/r Shawn


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> The bike does not look Miami built to me. V/r Shawn



The response is not sequitur.  The frame is clearly marked Emblem Speedwell, but the chainring looks to be from a Miami/Merkel bike. Thanks


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## Freqman1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Probably not a good use of _non sequitur _but didn't notice the word "chainring" as it appears to be part of the hyper link. A better shot from the chain ring side of the bike would make this easier to determine. V/r Shawn


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> Probably not a good use of _non sequitur _but didn't notice the word "chainring" as it appears to be part of the hyper link. A better shot from the chain ring side of the bike would make this easier to determine. V/r Shawn



I disagree, it was a non sequitur comment that controversialized my original statement.  I will shoot more pics as time allows... thanks


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

Here is a close up of the chainring


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## fordmike65 (Sep 16, 2019)

fordmike65 said:


> Going by the bars & saddle remnants, I'd say late 20's or so.



Duh...not sure where I got late 20's from. I meant to say early20's going by that saddle and bars, tho I don't know all that much about these. Looks like you did well! Congrats.


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

Archie Sturmer said:


> https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/emblem-manufacturing-info.125531/
> 
> Emblem bikes that I have seen do have some peculiar parts.  The *crankset *may have oversized threads and cones; the sprocket drive pin may be offset 2 inches.
> They are an odd size and challenging to obtain - just something to keep in mind with any disassembly, repairs, refurbishments, or replacements.
> ...



Excellent link... Great source of information. Many thanks


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## fordmike65 (Sep 16, 2019)

You might be right about that chainring...


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

fordmike65 said:


> Duh...not sure where I got late 20's from. I meant to say early20's going by that saddle and bars, tho I don't know all that much about these. Looks like you did well! Congrats.



Thanks Mike, I am think that this may have originally been a fixed gear.


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## bricycle (Sep 16, 2019)

You need this also then, a circa 1920 "Speedmore" 26" youth... post 3 pics 16, 17 and post 16 tank details...
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/fs-my-babies.136574/#post-910702


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

bricycle said:


> You need this also then, a circa 1920 "Speedmore" 26" youth... post 3 pics 16, 17 and post 16 tank details...
> https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/fs-my-babies.136574/#post-910702



Mmm, nahh.  But what do you think of the chainring and cranks?


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

fordmike65 said:


> You might be right about that chainring...
> View attachment 1064386
> View attachment 1064387



Yup, it looks like a ringer


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## bricycle (Sep 16, 2019)

FSH said:


> Mmm, nahh.  But what do you think of the chainring and cranks?



check with @hoofhearted


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## hoofhearted (Sep 16, 2019)

*Chairing = F-M*










*Throw me a bone … please.*

*Thank you …..*

*….. patric*


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

hoofhearted said:


> *Chairing = F-M*
> 
> View attachment 1064569
> 
> ...



Looks like the crank might be flying Merkel as well


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

hoofhearted said:


> *Chairing = F-M*
> 
> View attachment 1064569
> 
> ...



Any info on what the crank and chainring looks like for the Speedwell?


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## hoofhearted (Sep 16, 2019)

FSH said:


> Looks like the crank might be flying Merkel as well




*Excellent sleuthing, FSH !!*
Good Form.

….. patric


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## hoofhearted (Sep 16, 2019)

FSH said:


> Any info on what the crank and chainring looks like for the Speedwell?




===========================================

*Sorry -- I do not know.*

*….. patric*


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

Anyways flying Merkel chainring and crank for sale soon...


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## Archie Sturmer (Sep 16, 2019)

Not sure if anyone else counted the number of teeth 24, on the added pictures.
That may explain things - swapping one mfgr's part for another - to allow the rider to pedal easier.
And then, not too many chain rings will interface with the Emblems 2" x 1" (offset/hole) cranks.
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/sprocket-compilation-pic-heavy.41683/page-8#post-913538 (2nd picture; lower crank).
So, Emblem lasted a couple of decades or so longer than Miami Ohio, what was the old-connection, if any?
I thought that 480,000 was a relatively high (later) serial number, past Miami's time (and Pierce's too).


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

Archie Sturmer said:


> Not sure if anyone else counted the number of teeth 24, on the added pictures.
> That may explain things - swapping one mfgr's part for another - to allow the rider to pedal easier.
> And then, not too many chain rings will interface with the Emblems 2" x 1" (offset/hole) cranks.
> 
> ...



Hello and thank you for your help in the matter.  Here is a photo of the serial number... This may help or add to the mystery.


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

Archie Sturmer said:


> Not sure if anyone else counted the number of teeth 24, on the added pictures.
> That may explain things - swapping one mfgr's part for another - to allow the rider to pedal easier.
> And then, not too many chain rings will interface with the Emblems 2" x 1" (offset/hole) cranks.
> https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/sprocket-compilation-pic-heavy.41683/page-8#post-913538 (2nd picture; lower crank).
> ...



So a snowflake type chainring?  Interesting indeed.  The Pierce/speedwell crank looks like a Merkel as well...


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

No dogleg on my cranks


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## FSH (Sep 16, 2019)

Archie Sturmer said:


> Not sure if anyone else counted the number of teeth 24, on the added pictures.
> That may explain things - swapping one mfgr's part for another - to allow the rider to pedal easier.
> And then, not too many chain rings will interface with the Emblems 2" x 1" (offset/hole) cranks.
> https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/sprocket-compilation-pic-heavy.41683/page-8#post-913538 (2nd picture; lower crank).
> ...



Do you know if the Speedwell chainring had a unique pitch, or was it standard for it's time?  Also I don't see this bike being any newer than 1927, but I could be wrong.  Thanks


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## Archie Sturmer (Sep 17, 2019)

For what I know, Speedwell is another badge on Emblem-built bikes.



A 1917 Canadian catalog page, eh - what's that chain ring on the truss frame!



So perhaps the Speedwell may look good with any Emblem chain ring, the 5-petals or sand-dollar chain ring is rare to me.


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## FSH (Sep 17, 2019)

Archie Sturmer said:


> For what I know, Speedwell is another badge on Emblem-built bikes.
> View attachment 1065048
> A 1917 Canadian catalog page, eh.  What's that chain ring on the truss frame!
> View attachment 1065049
> So perhaps the Speedwell may look good with any Emblem chain ring, the 5-petals or sand-dollar chain ring is rare to me.



Thanks for the info... The truss frame appears to have the same flying Merkel chainring.  Do you see it?  Thanks


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## SKPC (Sep 22, 2019)

This looks to me like an Emblem crank arm and the advertisement shows the use of your ring as well.  The Miami crankarms have a different shape where it mounts onto the ring. The Emblem snowflake ring you reference above is from my Emblem motobike with a 400,000k#.   I always wondered who the makers were of these cool diamond cranks & the various ring designs back then.


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## SKPC (Jan 13, 2021)

@hoofhearted @Archie Sturmer .   Bump this thread.   So was it determined that both Miami/Merkel and Emblem used the 2" drive pin spacing on their sprockets and cranks?  Miami had quite a few different styles of both that suggest different maker/suppliers.  Was it decided then that this setup (2") is correct for this particular Emblem bike?
1912-1923 Miami below.(from Flying M. site) Look closely at the differences between it and this Emblems' sprocket with the same 2" pin spacing. Thickness of spider, inner circle, etc. seem different.


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## FSH (Jan 13, 2021)

SKPC said:


> @hoofhearted @Archie Sturmer .   Bump this thread.   So was it determined that both Miami/Merkel and Emblem used the 2" drive pin spacing on their sprockets and cranks?  Miami had a few styles of sprockets and cranks that may indicate different suppliers.   So it was decided that this setup is correct for this particular Emblem bike?
> 1912-1923 Miami. Look closely at differences between the below Miami and the Emblem of similar look and 2" pin spacing. Thickness of spider, inner circle, etc.. from the Flying Merkel site.
> View attachment 1338403



I have seen several Speed Well bikes with this chainring.  I do believe they were most likely stock and provided by a supplier as I have seen these chainrings in a catalogue.  When I get time I will take the chainring off and shot more photos.


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## Archie Sturmer (Jan 14, 2021)

I believe that I have that 22-tooth chain ring sprocket with a dog-leg crank somewhere; (could not find it last time that I looked for it in the garage).  Seems that *Miami* may have had different chain ring sprockets and cranks for its own different product lines, and perhaps those sold to hardware stores.  Also, seems like most of *Emblems* chain ring sprockets look like another bicycle manufacturer’s (e.g., Excelsior).


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## bricycle (Jan 14, 2021)

Well the first thing that caught my eye was the HUGE saddle frame as you mentioned.


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## SKPC (Jan 14, 2021)

Yes, big seat!




Archie Sturmer said:  "Also, seems like most of *Emblems* chain ring sprockets look like another bicycle manufacturer’s (e.g., Excelsior)"
Seems Emblem used many sprocket designs with the 2" pin spacing.  
The more common ones below.





And a couple unique ones as well below..


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## dnc1 (Jan 14, 2021)

That seat looks to be half a yard long!?


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