# Unknown TOC



## Freqman1 (Aug 19, 2021)

Another bike out of the Harmon auction. I can't find a serial and the Stearns badge did not originate on this bike. It has pins on the top and bottom head tube lugs to hold the badge? It has mix-matched pedals and I'm told the seat is later --ca. 1905 or so. The frame seems to be very light compared to most bikes like this I've had. Any help on identification is most welcomed.  V/r Shawn


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Aug 19, 2021)

*E. C. Stearns Bicycle Agency* was established in 1893 by industrialist Edward C. Stearns, who began business as a hardware manufacturer and branched out into bicycle production from 1893 through 1899.


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Aug 19, 2021)

Persons saddles


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## locomotion (Aug 19, 2021)

what is the relationship/difference between E.C. Stearns and Co. and Stearns Bicycle Agency?


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## Freqman1 (Aug 19, 2021)

locomotion said:


> what is the relationship/difference between E.C. Stearns and Co. and Stearns Bicycle Agency?



I have no clue these bikes are out of my wheelhouse. I bought these to fuel my ballon tire collecting! V/r Shawn


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## locomotion (Aug 19, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> I have no clue these bikes are out of my wheelhouse. I bought these to fuel my ballon tire collecting! V/r Shawn




it's odd how the headbadge is not centered in the headtube. almost looks like there are 3 badge screw holes


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Aug 19, 2021)

It would have the Stearns medallion on the fork crown and also have this crankset, if it was a Stearns.
The existing crankset looks similar to Fauber.
Shawn’s frame appears to be circa  1896.


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## Jesse McCauley (Aug 20, 2021)

Nothing about that machine spoke Stearns to me- 
The stem is one that was used on both Tribune and National machines, not to say it couldn't have been swapped out / added at a later date 
This ad ca. 1900


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## Freqman1 (Aug 20, 2021)

Jesse McCauley said:


> Nothing about that machine spoke Stearns to me-
> The stem is one that was used on both Tribune and National machines, not to say it couldn't have been swapped out / added at a later date
> This ad ca. 1900
> 
> View attachment 1465145



The chainring looks like one I see on a Davis built National while searching. @Blue Streak @Rambler what you guys think? V/r Shawn


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## locomotion (Aug 20, 2021)

Jesse McCauley said:


> Nothing about that machine spoke Stearns to me-
> The stem is one that was used on both Tribune and National machines, not to say it couldn't have been swapped out / added at a later date
> This ad ca. 1900
> 
> View attachment 1465145




Yes. I think the stem might have been added. 
I don't usually expect to see that type of stem (center pull screw fastening) with a tightening collar at the top of the fork tube.
It's usually one or the other.


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## Blue Streak (Aug 20, 2021)

The stem is same design Tribune used 1899-1902 but bolt heads not exact match. Nothing else about it is Tribune:





1902 Tribune Model 750




1901 Tribune Chainless




As for the chainring I don't have much info on Nationals but similar to last photo below but not exact:




Here is chainring from a National (SN 61480) that was on eBay October 2020. Similar design but with two bolts and crank arms have different cross section shape:


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## Rambler (Aug 20, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> The chainring looks like one I see on a Davis built National while searching. @Blue Streak @Rambler what you guys think? V/r Shawn




Shaun,
I looked at the photos of the bike that you have and can say with certainty it is not Bay City MI built National. As for what Davis may have done and tagged with the National badge I do not know. However your bike looks to me to be earlier than 1917 and Davis did not own the rights to the National name prior to 1917. So in any case it's not a National of Bay City MI and not likely a later Davis built National either. 

The sprocket on your bike looks familiar to me but I cannot place it. If it comes to me later I will chime in but for the moment sorry I am of no help in identifying your bike.
Tyson


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## bikejunk (Aug 21, 2021)

if the badge says Tourist that is a less expensive line Sterns took on and appears in their catalogues


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## Freqman1 (Aug 21, 2021)

bikejunk said:


> if the badge says Tourist that is a less expensive line Sterns took on and appears in their catalogues



As we established the badge is not original to the bike and it is not a Stearns. V/r Shawn


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## Archie Sturmer (Aug 22, 2021)

The crankset looks peculiar, with 24-teeth, (but then the earlier or ToC bikes were not stuck on 26-teeth). Notice that there is no clearly visible drive pin on the crank arm.

The extra-wide flange on the crank reminds me of a Fauber (then) “new” style, but the Fauber design had four attachment screws, and a wide center-hole on the chain ring, to be removed over the right-side crank arm.

The pictures do not show how the chain ring is affixed to the crank, and looks like it might be removed by sliding over the left-side crank arm. Perhaps there are some hidden screws, or even a double-D drive(?), or the like.

First thought that the chain ring sprocket looked like one of the Miami Cycle designs; (but those seem to be more like later derivatives of a D&J clover).


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## Freqman1 (Aug 22, 2021)

Archie Sturmer said:


> The crankset looks peculiar, with 24-teeth, (but then the earlier or ToC bikes were not stuck on 26-teeth). Notice that there is no clearly visible drive pin on the crank arm.
> 
> The extra-wide flange on the crank reminds me of a Fauber (then) “new” style, but the Fauber design had four attachment screws, and a wide center-hole on the chain ring, to be removed over the right-side crank arm.
> 
> ...



I'll get better pics but it isn't Miami. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Aug 31, 2021)

Maybe these pics will help. The head badge seems to have been attached by two studs. I've never seen this before and what is really unusual is that they are on the lugs which would bring the badge off the tube. Giovanni thinks maybe the badge could have had an insert that may have required this. The crank appears to be attached by a bolt. Any help is much appreciated. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Sep 14, 2021)

The bike is for sale here https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/late-1890s-mens-unknown-mfr.196933/ I am unable to ship at this time but if you are going to be at MLC or know someone who is the bike can be delivered there. No trades but wil certainly entertain reasonable offers. V/r Shawn


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## locomotion (Jan 15, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> "The head badge seems to have been attached by two studs."
> 
> View attachment 1470766




what is the distance between the 2 studs for the headbadge (center to center)?


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## Freqman1 (Jan 15, 2022)

locomotion said:


> what is the distance between the 2 studs for the headbadge (center to center)?



3 3/16"


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## locomotion (Jan 15, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> 3 3/16"



The only head badge or bike that I own with that exact distance is this Monarch badge.



















this is a Monarch that I sold last year
my Monarch had the same large bolt for attaching the crank

might be a lead, might not








						1890's Monarch, Chicago, USA ...... ID help | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

1890's Monarch, Chicago, USA ...... ID help I have had this bike for a long time, but I was never able to pinpoint an exact year or model from the research I was doing I am sure some of the more talented researchers on here could probably help bike is ornately pinstriped (boxed and filigree)...




					thecabe.com
				




one of your pedal kind of look similar to my Monarch rat-trap pedals as well ..... similar design but not identical

could it be a "ABC/Pope ified" Monarch when "in 1899 Mr. Kiser sold the Monarch Cycle Manufacturing Company to the “Bicycle Trust,”"?





						Monarch Cycle Company
					






					chicagology.com
				












						Guess this Headbadge... | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

Came across this today... Didn't get it.   Who's the maker?  It was a women's bike.  Forget to get the entire frame shot -Doh! Here's the crank on it.




					thecabe.com
				




@Blue Streak  Jeff do you have any information on 1899 Monarch bikes or 1900 ABC/Pope use of the Monarch brand?


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## razinhellcustomz (Jan 22, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Another bike out of the Harmon auction. I can't find a serial and the Stearns badge did not originate on this bike. It has pins on the top and bottom head tube lugs to hold the badge? It has mix-matched pedals and I'm told the seat is later --ca. 1905 or so. The frame seems to be very light compared to most bikes like this I've had. Any help on identification is most welcomed.  V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 1464893
> 
> ...



Hey Shawn, don't know much about these, maybe a Gormuly and Jefferys? Good luck.. Mark..


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## Freqman1 (Jan 22, 2022)

razinhellcustomz said:


> Hey Shawn, don't know much about these, maybe a Gormuly and Jefferys? Good luck.. Mark..



Mark for sure not a G&J. I’m leaning more towards a Monarch. V/r Shawn


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## razinhellcustomz (Jan 22, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Mark for sure not a G&J. I’m leaning more towards a Monarch. V/r Shawn



Good call Shawn, i did not realize they made Monarchs that early on.. Cool old bike which ever make it turns out to be.. Good luck.. Mark...


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## Freqman1 (Jan 22, 2022)

razinhellcustomz said:


> Good call Shawn, i did not realize they made Monarchs that early on.. Cool old bike which ever make it turns out to be.. Good luck.. Mark...



Two different companies with different spellings. The TOC Monarch and the Silver King Monark. V/r Shawn


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## razinhellcustomz (Jan 22, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Two different companies with different spellings. The TOC Monarch and the Silver King Monark. V/r Shawn



Good to know as that was kind of what i was thinking, Monark and Monarch.. Go figure.. Thanks Shawn..


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## locomotion (Jan 24, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> I’m leaning more towards a Monarch. V/r Shawn




@Velo-dream just posted an ABC 1900 catalogue (French) with the Monarch branded bikes in it
kind of hard to see from the pics, check it out








						very rare AMERICAN BICYCLE COMPANY 1900 catalogue | Sell - Trade: Bicycle Parts, Accessories, Ephemera
					

AMERICAN BICYCLE COMPANY 1900 catalogue  beautiful bicycle catalogue from the Paris Exposition 1900 ;23.5x11.5 cm  56 pages with text and pictures of these bicycles:   350$ shipped with tracking  pay pal for friends only   Columbia Cleveland Crescent Monarch Rambler Stearns Tribune Spalding...




					thecabe.com


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