# Wheel Lacing HELP!? 4 Cross Pattern



## MBL

Hello all. I need some help from the collective wisdom of the forum. I am lacing a high flange Schwinn hub with the expander brake into my 36 hole S2 rims. I followed a video where a British woman easily explains how to do what I believe is a 3-cross pattern. I followed it and it seems that my spokes are too long for this pattern with the high flange....then I read that you need to do a 4-cross patter with the high flange hub. 

If this is the case, can someone explain the difference in the lace up? Is there a good instructional video for it?
Thanks for any suggestions!
Tim
MBL


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## militarymonark

doesn't matter what you want to do. But to cross 4 you need 10 5/8 spokes which from what your saying sounds like that size. i have a thread on how to lace up a rim.


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## militarymonark

Im not a brittish women but I have a Maryland accent. 

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?413-spoking-wheels


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## MBL

This Is goos stuff! Thanks! Figured it out kinda...I keep getting it to where the valve stem isn't in one of the bigger openings. ugh!?


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## Rivnut

*YouTube video*

I watched this YouTube vidio the other night.  Because of the 'hassle of the holidays' I haven't been able to try it yet, but it seemed easy enough to follow so it makes it seem like it's something that is feasible for an old fart like me who's never attempted this yet.

Good luck.  If you use this as a guide, let us know how you did and if it was helpful.

Ed

PS - When looking for part 2 of the videoes, find 2.1.  In 2.1 there will be a link at the very end to take you to 2.2.  Then there's a part 3 where the wheel is trued.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTb3x5VO69Y


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## Gary Mc

Rivnut said:


> I watched this YouTube vidio the other night.  Because of the 'hassle of the holidays' I haven't been able to try it yet, but it seemed easy enough to follow so it makes it seem like it's something that is feasible for an old fart like me who's never attempted this yet.
> 
> Good luck.  If you use this as a guide, let us know how you did and if it was helpful.
> 
> Ed
> 
> PS - When looking for part 2 of the videoes, find 2.1.  In 2.1 there will be a link at the very end to take you to 2.2.  Then there's a part 3 where the wheel is trued.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTb3x5VO69Y




Ed, These are great videos and the spoke calculator is amazing.  Very easy to understand and well explained. Thanks for sharing.  This changed my mind about going ahead & building my own.


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## SirMike1983

Cross 3 is the most common pattern in general. There are lots of resources about cross 3 36 spoke builds. The English used cross 4 on their rear wheels usually, which allowed them to use the same length spokes on a short flange front hub and a higher flange rear hub. The only major change I would make to the original patterns would be to interlace the spokes for added strength. 

The question of the opening where the valve is will depend on where you start your hub-rim alignment. Getting the key spoke right is helpful.

My starting point:

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html


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## MBL

I think I got it! Now just to true it. I have a feeling it won't ever be perfect but eh. Good enough for me.
Tim
MBL


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## Old-Bikes

MBL said:


> I think I got it! Now just to true it. I have a feeling it won't ever be perfect but eh. Good enough for me.
> Tim
> MBL




great! 4 cross is too much for this wheel (adds stress to nipples because spoke angle is too big), but good job anyway. :o


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## MBL

Aren't I forced to use the 4 cross due to the large flange hub? I am sure I read this somewhere before.
Tim
MBL


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## greenephantom

These all came 4x from the factory, that's how they did it back then.  Coaster hubs, small front hubs, expander hubs, all 4x, allowed them to use the length spokes.  Your wheel is laced correctly.

Bicyclebones on eBay recently started reproducing the axle assembly for these, not sure if you need this stuff, but it's way easier than trying to chase down original cones and nuts for these hubs.

Also: Oliver typewriter in the background?

Cheers, Geoff


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## MBL

Thanks for the clarification! I think my cones and everthing are ok. The wheel is not true at this point by a bit. I am not sure if truing it will work, or if the rim is egg shaped. I guess I will find out.

And yes, good spot on the Oliver No5! It is an early model without the backspace lever. 
Tim
MBl


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## SirMike1983

Old-Bikes said:


> great! 4 cross is too much for this wheel (adds stress to nipples because spoke angle is too big), but good job anyway. :o




Yes- cross 4 for high flange. 

It looks like you got the large opening for the valve too.


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## Old-Bikes

I don't want to piss off anyone, but "original" doesn't mean it's the best way to go.
IMHO 3 cross would be better.

but what do I know...


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## MBL

Ok, well I got a spoke wrench, and I tightened things up while spinning it around in a spare fork I had laying around. I got the rim to be fairly true side to side woble is minimalized; however, the wheel appears to be slightly out of round. Is there anything that can be done about that?
Tim
MBL


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## militarymonark

Yes, I have a thread on here that has a link to a book called, "it's easy to fix your bicycle" and it has a section that shows u how to get the egg shape out. Also my link for lacing up a wheel discusses truing a wheel. Sometimes it is easier to loosen them all up and try again. Make sure u are setting the nipples the same on the spokes. This centers the hub and from there if u need to pull the rim to one side it won't take the wheel out of round. Small minor corrections are key to making the rim true


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## MBL

Found the link! Thanks! 

Here I am using a higgins fork as a truing stand...not the best but it is what I have available to me. 






What I wound up doing was lostening everything. Then I made all the spokes finger tight...then went around and turned each with a spoke wrench about the same amount....then tried to get it to be true. I found most of the egg shape came out of the rim. Perhaps the hub was not centered originally? Either way, I think this one may be done. Now to swap the new departure D hub into the rear wheel?!. Saving some money and learning as I go.
Tim
MBL


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## redline1968

dude egg shaped is not good. it wont ride good and is possibly dangerous.  it means the rim is too tight on one end.  this is to be done once you have the correct crosses. if you dont do the crosses on the floor also.  first you will need to loosen them up till they are all lose then slowly tighten them up till they meet the rim.   i do this on the floor with the guts out. so the hub lays on the floor. i tighten them one at a time in one turn consession.  i go around the rim doing this till i go around the rim. next i do the other side the same way. do this till the spokes are snugged up to the rim.  make sure when you first start the nips are turned in the same consession (one turn at a time in the start). once you have them  all up to the rim, put it on the truing stand. then do spokes in one direction first on one side skipping a spoke in the same one turn consession. then the other side in the same direction. then go back to the other side and do the spoke u skipped in the other direction. do this till they are tight now check to see if its leaning one way or the other if it is, turn the spokes on the opposite side till its pulled straight. check around then you will have it straight and check for egg shape.  i say one turn for you  till you get the hang of it. then you can do more down the line when you are used to it.


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## MBL

Ok so I'm trying to get the rear hub done. It seems that since the hub is smaller the 4x doesn't work...but 3x shown here leaves the spokes too long. Any ideas? Should I be able to do a 4x on the new departure d hub?
Tim
MBL


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## dougfisk

MBL said:


> Ok so I'm trying to get the rear hub done. It seems that since the hub is smaller the 4x doesn't work...but 3x shown here leaves the spokes too long. Any ideas? Should I be able to do a 4x on the new departure d hub?
> Tim
> MBL




How long are your spokes?  S2 + 270mm + ND hub +4 cross should be a go...


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## Old-Bikes

MBL said:


> Ok so I'm trying to get the rear hub done. It seems that since the hub is smaller the 4x doesn't work...but 3x shown here leaves the spokes too long. Any ideas? Should I be able to do a 4x on the new departure d hub?
> Tim
> MBL




you can build the rear wheel 4 cross if you want to, but be aware that there are many spoke lenghts usually in 2mm increments. first you have to measure your rim and hub then use a spoke calculator to find the correct lenght.


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## MBL

Well after messing with it some... got the 4x to work...except that aparently there are two different size spokes here?! Strange cause I just dissasembled the wheel to put the ND in. I guess I need to head to the bike store to get some spokes. What size should I get?
Tim
MBL


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## MBL

270mm 80 gauge? Or 10 5/8"? 
Tim
MBL


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## dougfisk

MBL said:


> 270mm 80 gauge? Or 10 5/8"?
> Tim
> MBL




270mm converts to 10 & 5/8


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## dougfisk

MBL said:


> I guess I need to head to the bike store to get some spokes. What size should I get?
> Tim
> MBL




Measure whichever size is working best so far.  Absent actually taking careful measurement of your rims, 268 to 270 is usually the answer.  Usually 268 ish for drop centers and usually 270 ish for S2's


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## MBL

Had to order the spokes...oh well there goes the progress. Still learned a bunch so far.
Tim
MBL


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