# Just Bought A Black Beauty...I Think...



## HARPO (May 8, 2020)

Thanks to a "Heads Up" from @bikesnbuses because it was here on Long Island, I got to purchase this bike. I was leery on first seeing it, and initially said no because of the ebay photos. And at a starting price of $100 or Buy It Now at $150, I declined. I did contact the owner with a bit of info I could make out (_like it was a re-paint, etc._) and he thanked me. He then told me he was going to lower the starting price to $50...but if I wanted it he'd do it as a  Buy It Now at $50 for me. To tempting to pass up, I figured what the heck! So $50 plus Tax came to almost $55, and this morning I was off to pick it up.

Turns out it's in much better shape that the photos showed (opposite of what I usually run into) and I can't wait to start to clean many, many years of dust and dirt from it.

But...is this truly a Black Beauty? Didn't they all have a "B" crankset or at least a decorative one? And, does anyone have any idea as to the year on this one? I'm assuming 1930's or so, but please let me know. Enjoy the photos I took as it left my SUV.


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## HARPO (May 8, 2020)

And more...


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## HARPO (May 8, 2020)

I just saw this online...so I now have an idea as to its age.


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## HARPO (May 8, 2020)

1922 United States Bicycle Tire Ad...


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## 1motime (May 8, 2020)

Now you have some more cleaning to do!  Enjoy   Nice bike!


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## HARPO (May 8, 2020)

1motime said:


> Now you have some more cleaning to do!  Enjoy   Nice bike!




I can take a break from working on the Schwinn New World for something even older!


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## Freqman1 (May 8, 2020)

Kinda looking Westfield built to me. Is there a serial on the bottom bracket? BTW thanks for visiting my website! V/r Shawn


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## HARPO (May 8, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> Kinda looking Westfield built to me. Is there a serial on the bottom bracket? BTW thanks for visiting my website! V/r Shawn




Funny you should ask! I had remembered a little while ago that I had forgotten to take a photo of the bottom bracket.


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## Freqman1 (May 8, 2020)

Ok that serial is not looking Westfield to me? Have to let the experts weigh in on this one. V/r Shawn


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## HARPO (May 8, 2020)

This is now officially the oldest bike I have ever owned. I'm _thrilled_ to find out any and all info any of the experts out there can offer.


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## Mercian (May 9, 2020)

Hi, All,

no, not a Westfield serial. Wrong font, and they didn't use U.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## HARPO (May 9, 2020)

Apparently when the bike was spray painted, they decided to match the grips that someone had put on.

Oh, and I did notice a drilled hole on the seat tube near the crank, so this bike originally came with a chain guard. One of those large, circular designed pieces of art.


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## Archie Sturmer (May 9, 2020)

Snyder bottom bracket joints and fork crown. 

“U” serial may be a 1933-U; don’t think that the HP Snyder Little Falls NY plant skipped 1934-V,
(working backwards from 35-W, 36-X, 37-Y, etc.).


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## HARPO (May 9, 2020)

Archie Sturmer said:


> Snyder bottom bracket joints and fork crown.
> 
> “U” serial may be a 1933-U; don’t think that the HP Snyder Little Falls NY plant skipped 1934-V,
> (working backwards from 35-W, 36-X, 37-Y, etc.).




Thanks for the update! So thanks to @Freqman1 's site, this would be a 1933, and the last year for that hub to be used. Cool!


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## HARPO (May 9, 2020)

Now this looks pretty close to mine... even the forks. Yet my frame looks "tighter" and curvier.


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## HARPO (May 9, 2020)

@sm2501  Scott, the Black Beauty you just sold has the same head badge as mine. What years was this badge used?

I pumped up the tires and they held air. Took it for a quick down the block ride and all was good. And looking at the tires, they could be original, but then why would you paint the bike if that indicated not a lot of use?
I might try and see if I can remove some paint to see what lays beneath...


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## szathmarig (May 10, 2020)

I have a chain guard like that if you need one.


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## HARPO (May 10, 2020)

szathmarig said:


> I have a chain guard like that if you need one.View attachment 1191008
> 
> View attachment 1191009




Thanks, I'll let you know if I do. What are you asking for it?


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## HARPO (May 15, 2020)

After examining the bottom bracket serial numbers, they're _not_ covered in blue paint. Any chance that the bike was originally blue, and someone matched it closely only to cover scrapes, scratches and rust? The head tube looks like they used a brush if you look closely, but I need to clean more of the bike to see if this appears elsewhere. _Did they make a blue back then???_


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## Adamtinkerer (May 16, 2020)

Looks to be the predecessor to my Hawthorne Dolly Varden, which is a '35 or 6. Originally a dark blue.


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## HARPO (May 16, 2020)

Adamtinkerer said:


> Looks to be the predecessor to my Hawthorne Dolly Varden, which is a '35 or 6. Originally a dark blue.View attachment 1195261




Yes, the frame looks identical from what I can see. And besides missing the chain guard and drop stand, it's also missing a rear rack. Rear hub dates mine between 1927-1933, so yes, a predecessor to yours.

Aha! Then maybe the previous owner did  repaint it in sections the original color. Nice to know that yours was a dark blue, and that back then they did make colors for a girls bike.


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## HARPO (May 16, 2020)

@Adamtinkerer  Your crankset is different than the one on mine, so apparently they didn't carry mine to any much newer years. Maybe mine was the last?...


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## HARPO (May 18, 2020)

Rubbing Compound is beginning to work on the paint and should make it look fairly decent when I'm finished. The frame _appears_ to be original paint so far...but like I mentioned earlier, I see brush strokes on the head tube. Weird.


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## juanitasmith13 (May 21, 2020)

NICE score Harpo!!! The tires are worth $55.00!


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## HARPO (May 22, 2020)

Here's a Rollfast I forgot I used to own. Check out the frame and crank...same one? Fork is different though. Also, the Rollfast has 26'' wheels.


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## HARPO (May 24, 2020)

Still working on the bike, a little each day. Here's the hub roughly cleaned so I could see the stamping on it. 

But I do have a question about the rims. _What metal did they use?_ It doesn't appear to be chrome...or stainless steel...but does appear to have a copper coloring to it. Anyone know??? I'm new kid with a bike this old.


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## New Mexico Brant (May 24, 2020)

HARPO said:


> _What metal did they use?_ It doesn't appear to be chrome...or stainless steel...but does appear to have a copper coloring to it. Anyone know???



Nickel.


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## HARPO (May 25, 2020)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Nickel.




Aha! Thank you. I never even considered that.


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## HARPO (May 28, 2020)

Paint cleanup is coming along...


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## HARPO (Jun 29, 2020)

Time to go back on work on THIS bike. Saddle is coming along nicely...a bit better than I had originally hoped for.


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## mickeyc (Jun 29, 2020)

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but what do they call this type of seat attachment device?


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## HARPO (Jun 29, 2020)

mickeyc said:


> Don't mean to hijack this thread, but what do they call this type of seat attachment device?




"Lucky 7" because of the shape...


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## mickeyc (Jun 29, 2020)

I meant the bottom of the seat attachment, not the shaft that goes into the down tube,


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## HARPO (Jun 29, 2020)

mickeyc said:


> I meant the bottom of the seat attachment, not the shaft that goes into the down tube,




I don't know, lol. A clamp. It's just part of every early Pre War saddle that I've ever had. Another piece I just take for granted.


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## HARPO (Jul 1, 2020)

I swear that the dried out grease had to have been baking on the hub since the early 1930's. Never cleaned at all! I've been at this for awhile, so I'm getting there ever so slowly.    Still, it will worth it when I'm done.

Also, you can see some blue paint on one of the washers. Some was also on the arm, showing that whoever painted the bike way back never even took the wheels of to do it...


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## HARPO (Jul 1, 2020)

It's _SLOWLY_ coming along, @bikesnbuses ...


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## 1motime (Jul 1, 2020)

Don't your fingers hurt after a while?


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## HARPO (Jul 2, 2020)

1motime said:


> Don't your fingers hurt after a while?




Oh yeah they hurt!!! 

When I work on the hubs, I mainly use a toothbrush and a brass brush to get into small spaces within the wheel. But I still need to fit my fingers in there to wipe it all down, and then to polish the hubs. This particular hub was probably the worst one ever. It was solid chunks of hardened grease coating almost the entire hub. You could barely see the outline of the oiler or where the spokes fit into the hub. 
When I bought the bike, everything was covered in dust and dirt. I had no idea what I was in for with the hubs, lol! :eek:


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## cbustapeck (Jul 2, 2020)

HARPO said:


> View attachment 1189902




Compare with this one, which should be making it's way to my home before too long. Yours has a bit of a curve at the bottom of the front fenders, which I think is a later detail, but I am not completely sure. 

One curious detail: I note that the little bracket, for the skirt guard, right above the rear axle on the left side is present on the left side of your bike but missing on the right. The same is the case for mine.


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## HARPO (Jul 2, 2020)

cbustapeck said:


> Compare with this one, which should be making it's way to my home before too long. Yours has a bit of a curve at the bottom of the front fenders, which I think is a later detail, but I am not completely sure.
> 
> One curious detail: I note that the little bracket, for the skirt guard, right above the rear axle on the left side is present on the left side of your bike but missing on the right. The same is the case for mine.




I think you found the sister to mine!   Nice that the one you're getting has its original paint AND the chain guard. But...I'm going to assume that it doesn't include wheels?


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## cbustapeck (Jul 2, 2020)

HARPO said:


> I think you found the sister to mine!   Nice that the one you're getting has its original paint AND the chain guard. But...I'm going to assume that it doesn't include wheels?



You would be correct. I’m doing this as a budget build, and am presently working to understand the various sizes of road bike wheels to figure out what I can repurpose. If 700c will work, why not 27x1 3/8? I look forward to seeing your progress!


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## HARPO (Jul 3, 2020)

cbustapeck said:


> You would be correct. I’m doing this as a budget build, and am presently working to understand the various sizes of road bike wheels to figure out what I can repurpose. If 700c will work, why not 27x1 3/8? I look forward to seeing your progress!




Looks like we're also both missing the drop stand. But...I only paid $55 for the bike, so I can't complain. BTW...you'll need 28'' wheels...


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## cbustapeck (Jul 3, 2020)

I hear you about the price. I'm working on an idea for a functional drop stand super cheap. I'll post once I have it actually working.

Because I cannot find the answer to this: What is the outer diameter of a 28 inch wheel with tire mounted?


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## bricycle (Jul 3, 2020)

well, the wheels are 25" so with 3" of rubber (1.5" x 2 sides=3") would be 28" which is just about correct, give or take under/over inflation.


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## HARPO (Jul 3, 2020)

@cbustapeck  Post some pics when you get the bike... https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/28-inch-womans-hawthorne-project.168245/


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## cbustapeck (Jul 3, 2020)

bricycle said:


> well, the wheels are 25" so with 3" of rubber (1.5" x 2 sides=3") would be 28" which is just about correct, give or take under/over inflation.



28 inch tires are actually 28 inches? Whoa!!!


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## piercer_99 (Jul 3, 2020)

cbustapeck said:


> 28 inch tires are actually 28 inches? Whoa!!!



yep.


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## HARPO (Jul 4, 2020)

cbustapeck said:


> 28 inch tires are actually 28 inches? Whoa!!!




It showed my tires marked as 28'' on an earlier photo. And it appears that these are the original (_if not from the same time period_) tires that came with the bike.


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## cbustapeck (Jul 4, 2020)

HARPO said:


> It showed my tires marked as 28'' on an earlier photo. And it appears that these are the original (_if not from the same time period_) tires that came with the bike.



Well, I asked about number because there are a number of numbered standards that are variable in size at the rim, at least. For instance, the older road bike size, 27 in, is actually slightly wider than 700c, which is often referred to as 28 in. (630 mm vs 622 mm)


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## HARPO (Jul 4, 2020)

Well, the bike originally _was_ blue...just a darker shade. Whoever painted it either couldn't match the blue, or wanted a brighter tone.

I'm so tempted to try and strip off the paint and see if any decals remain, but I know I'd be opening a can of worms that I'd soon regret doing.


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## HARPO (Jul 4, 2020)

cbustapeck said:


> Well, I asked about number because there are a number of numbered standards that are variable in size at the rim, at least. For instance, the older road bike size, 27 in, is actually slightly wider than 700c, which is often referred to as 28 in. (630 mm vs 622 mm)




You still need 28'' rims...


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## cbustapeck (Jul 4, 2020)

HARPO said:


> You still need 28'' rims...



Fair. However, proper 28 inch rims are simply not within the budget of this project, so I am seeking out the least bad alternative. Also, I am a librarian, so I need to research this to death.


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## bricycle (Jul 4, 2020)

to be fair, all 28" wire/wheel combos aren't exactly 28" tho… Raleigh wheels w/tires are about 28.5"


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## HARPO (Jul 5, 2020)

Well, at this point, it appears that the bike is just a regular Hawthorne with a Black Beauty badge attached to it. No biggie. I still like the bike!!


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## HARPO (Jul 6, 2020)

@cbustapeck  just sent me this clipping. Turns out, as far as I can see, is that I have a Dolly Varden from 1932. Cool!

MAYBE I'll strip the paint to see what lies beneath...MAYBE. Fenders came off yesterday with ease. I figured the screws were rusted in, but they took them off to paint them. Less aggravation for me for a change!

BUT...I have a New Departure hub, where this year has a Mussleman according to the ad... and my rims are Nickel.


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## HARPO (Jul 6, 2020)

@Adamtinkerer  Would you be so kind, when you have time, to send a photo of the drop stand on your Dolly Varden? I'm curious as to how it was attached to this bike, different than on others I've had from what I can see.

And I think mine might be very late 1920's...


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## cbustapeck (Jul 10, 2020)

Regarding the chain guard: the one that came on my bike, which is the same color as the frame, so likely original, is in two pieces, riveted together.


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## HARPO (Jul 13, 2020)

cbustapeck said:


> Regarding the chain guard: the one that came on my bike, which is the same color as the frame, so likely original, is in two pieces, riveted together.
> View attachment 1226591View attachment 1226592




Great that you have that. The one you pointed out sold on ebay for a lot let less than I had thought it would have. Go figure...depends on who is looking I guess.


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## HARPO (Jan 1, 2021)

After seeing the updated Post from @cbustapeck , I'm inspired to go back working on mine!!!


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## HARPO (Jan 1, 2021)

This is from the late summer, when I stopped and started buying and working on easier bikes, lol!!!


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## cbustapeck (Jan 4, 2021)

HARPO said:


> After seeing the updated Post from @cbustapeck , I'm inspired to go back working on mine!!!



Yay! Do it!


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## HARPO (Feb 18, 2021)

If we EVER get rid of the continuous snowfall, and the weather warms up in the next couple of months, I'm going back to working on the bike. 

I'll remove as much of the new paint as I can while trying to retain whatever remains of the original. I just wish now that I hadn't wasted so much time cleaning up the paint that was on it...


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