# What would you do?



## bud poe

So, a friend of mine and I were debating this subject over a 45 minute drive for a $5.00 "bike seat" craigslist score (it turned out to be a schwinn or monark 9 hole rear carrier by the way).  
The question at hand: 
What if you found an original paint, complete bike, say a super rare, um, I don't know, Davis built Datonia LaFrance...The bike is nearly identical to the SUPER RARE Harley Davidson Motocyke, SAME frame, fenders, rear stand, gooseneck, etc...The only things setting this apart from it's "big brother" (the Motocyke) is the badge and sprocket, right?What would you do in a restoration scenario, put it back together as it came off the showroom floor?  Or put it back together with the HD badge and sprocket, probably double-ing the value of the bike....
Let's keep in mind, this could mean a difference in thousands of dollars, right?  Also, if you made it into a HD, would you feel obligated to disclose the bicycles history to the potential buyer?
WHAT WOULD YOU DO????


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## Talewinds

It's a two part question requiring a two part answer, albeit an easy one for me. I would:
a) Change it because I like the HD, and it's cooler, and it's what I want.

b) disclose the info and provide the original parts also at the time of sale because that's what's in my character.

Your mileage may vary.


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## bud poe

Ok, I like that option...You get the HD and you get no guilt....good answers!


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## chitown

I'm gonna catch a slipstream behind talewinds and agree with both parts A and B.

No harm, no foul. Full disclosure. Unless of course you really love sewing machines in which case you would not have to swap out any parts!

I'd Harley that thing out... with the correct bevel of course.


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## bud poe

The correct bevel, ha ha...


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## RMS37

I’m glad this question surfaced and in the framework that it is asked in. I imagine this thread will go quite a ways and generate opinions in many directions.

To sum up my opinion:

Based purely on the exact scenario imagined without applying it broadly across the Hobby, I would say that the only way to own a Harley Davidson bicycle is to acquire one that was _*originally built for*_ Harley Davidson.

And…

Bikes can’t talk. Anything you do to a bike while you own it that changes it will probably some day be assumed by somebody to be original and there will be nobody around but the bike to explain that is not so.

At greater length:

Any bicycle that was not originally built for and sold to the Harley Davidson company, is at best a Replica or perhaps, in the case of inaccurate representations, a Tribute bike. A Dayton La France with a Harley head badge and sprocket *is not* a Harley Davidson bicycle and can not be changed into one. This is akin to attempting to turn one twin brother into the other. You could forge the identity and probably fool virtually everyone but true identity is a birthright. If someone builds a Harley replica for themselves, that is what they have. If that matches their aesthetic more than the original version does, I can understand the reasons for doing so but as I see it, it would take a high degree of pretend energy along with an unhealthy dose of self-delusion to actually believe the product is a Harley Davidson or to refer to it as such to oneself or others with a straight face.

Branding, and the desire to belong, drive people to spend inordinate amounts to end up with what is essentially the same product they could have at a much lower price. This is human nature and I think people can become too driven by branding and in equal parts can try too hard to avoid it. If owning a real and authenticated Harley puts one is a special circle, so does owning a fake Harley and as much as people in the second group might want to see it as one big happy circle, I’m sure most of the people in the first circle don’t

Past the issues of ownership and connoisseurship comes money. It is also easy to see that people are willing to spend a premium to own a Harley or an Indian because the cachet of the brand translates in many more circles than Dayton would. Since the true difference in the value of a Harley and a Replica Harley should lie wholly in the true provenance of the “real-deal” that distance can never be closed in replication, it would logically seem that a replica Harley should be worth no more than a La France plus the cost of a head badge and sprocket. Since the same bike is no longer original it could also be argued that, as a faux Harley, it is worth less than the original La France it was made from. Obviously cold logic often goes out the window in collector markets and the market will, with each sale, set what real and fake Harleys are worth (and what donor La Frances are worth!) Ultimately, the real mystery and general curiosity is about what premium is the going rate for a well authenticated bike and what amount people are willing to risk on questionable bikes or waste on poorly done fakes.  

Down to buyers, I also find it interesting that most of the questions around trying to authenticate Harley bicycles come from novices and I think the notion of becoming knowledgeable to a degree that allows one to discern if a Harley is real or forged and the associated pay-off from finding and bringing a real Harley to market often outweigh the real core desire to own one for many would be buyers. My sense on this one is that if you have to ask, you aren’t there yet. It takes a long time and often several mistakes to get to a point that you can really trust your own opinion at the high end of the market. The fact that people are willing to pay an extreme premium for what amounts to a badge, a sprocket and assumed heritage is exactly why people fake these bikes for sale and why there is a need to be able to be confident of your own opinion that a bike is real or fake. If you can be just as happy with a LaFrance, you can save some money and be relatively sure you are not buying a fake.

As far as building replicas, the moral consequences of doing so, and the disclosure of having done so, I think like most things it is hard to know what the ultimate results of any action, good, bad or otherwise will be.

I think anything short of full disclosure at sale time regarding any bike you have is extremely poor form. While forgery for the sake of having a replica of something you like that is either purely or monetarily unattainable seems justifiable, forgery takes its pejorative connotation from the practice of incomplete disclosure to buyers for monetary gain. 

If the difference between replica and forgery rests with the word and honor of the builder then where does it exist when that person is out of the picture, either after a chain of sales or through the possibility that the builder may pass on after the construction is complete but before anyone else is informed of the story.

As noted, bikes can’t talk, so no matter how well intentioned the person responsible for modification is, some day someone will likely be confused or worse duped. Hence like it or not, “Buyer Beware”, should be written at the top of every buyer’s shopping list. At the bottom of the same list should be the words “Live and Learn”


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## OldRider

In the famous words of Popeye........"I yam what I yam". If you were born a Datonia LaFrance then that is what you should be. If you do make the changes and give full disclosure and original parts at sale time who is to say that that buyer won't turn around and sell as an original HD?


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## chitown

RMS37 said:


> If the difference between replica and forgery rests with the word and honor of the builder then where does it exist when that person is out of the picture, either after a chain of sales or through the possibility that the builder may pass on after the construction is complete but before anyone else is informed of the story.




I would dremel engrave on the inside of the bottom bracket the words "I am a Dayton, not a Harley" and then date it and sign it as the builder or modifier.

Oh and I wouldn't sell it either. Pass it on to the next generation. Let them screw up history when they sell it as a Harley, what do I care, I'm dead. We, as humans know how to do this quite well, pass on our twisted past to the next generation to decipher the truth.

So Mark, if we see you listing any Harley Motocykes on eBay... we're on to you. Otherwise, have fun with your bike. Hopefully it stays yours for a long time.

On the very serious issue of fraud and sales using misleading advertising, I feel strongly that there should be some sort of registry and authentication process for some of these really rare bikes. Just as sports memorabilia has letters of authenticity, so should high ticket bikes. Now if only there was a national bicycle history archive that could provide such a service... Back to being serious, does anyone know of any efforts of to have such a registry? Maybe it can have a "CABE approved" link on the ebay listing. Unfortunately Mark, we can only give you an approval rating if you keep her as a Dayton... and a beautiful Dayton at that.


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## bud poe

As usual, well put Phil...
While I can understand why someone would be tempted to make the switch, HD's are cooler in most eyes, I wouldn't feel right about doing it.  This was my stance during our discussion.  While I can understand that it IS essentially a HD bicycle, my thought was that to an HD collector, the Datonia would be an incredible addition to their collection.  It's a rare and beautiful enough bike in it's own right, why mess with it?  My gut feeling is that it should remain what it started out as...I never even thought about the issue of what becomes of the article after it changes hands a few times.  I suppose this is how "fakes" or replicas get circulated...A well intentioned first sellers disclosure can get lost in the mix...  Whatever your opinion may be, I look forward to seeing where this goes...


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## bairdco

you guys are making me feel guilty. i guess i have to take the Hendee Mfg. stickers off my motorized walmart huffy...


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## Flat Tire

Just MHO but I would never change an original Davis bike of any kind to a Harley. I've seen fake HD bicycles many times over the years at the Antique Motorcycle shows. Every time I see a restored HD bike I automatically consider it a fake....And unless you had an original headbadge, which are pretty hard to come by, the bike still wouldnt be original.  As fas as full disclosure remember the old saying "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive" lol...... You never know what kind of questions people will ask, for example if someone did change this bike, and a buyer was interested and said "wow thats a nice bike! is this the way you found it?"....or "was it complete when you found it, or did you add any parts".....I've heard those questions before......then you would be stuck in the position of lying or telling the truth.


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## bud poe

I want to be clear too, that I'm not passing judgement on anyone else's actions, but I can only speak to what I would feel OK about doing.  When that bike in question was converted to a HD, I'd always have the feeling that it's just....not...right...
Some might argue that my Hiawatha-turned-whizzer might fall into the same category, being that I took something, added parts and ended up with something else?  But I think thats a whole different animal, I'm not trying to hide it's origins and pass it off a s a geniuine "Whizzer".  I just wanted to build a cool looking old motorbike...
Loving reading all the opinions on this...


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## Springer Tom

Touche, Phil. The same goes for cloned cars and motorcycles. If a particular car was worth $60,000-70,000, it would seem idiotic to spend $30,000 or so so on a cloned vehicle. In the end, what did you buy? And when you go to sell it and can't because it's a clone, what did you expect? The one thing that's accomplished is people using original parts to build clones when we need the original parts for the originals. As far as full disclosure, it may work the first time the bike was sold, but not the next.Flat Tire knows the story, we've all seen Knuckleheads selling for exorbitant prices when you know damn well there's a lot of them just pieced together.......just my 2 cent contribution........


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## Larmo63

I agree with Mr. Marshall. I'm turning my Black Phantom back into the Sting-Ray it started out as. Sorry for any confusion.


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## bairdco

kidding aside, i think trying to pass a bike off as something else for monetary reasons is totally wrong, but if you want to keep it for yourself, there's nothing wrong with that, just don't go around telling people it's an original that you found in the basement of an abandoned building in Milwaukee.

one thing i don't have a problem with, though, is using identical parts from other brands to restore a bike. we all know that different brands used the same parts, the most obvious being hubs like New Departure's, and to a lesser extent, chainguards and fenders. if i need a light, or some handlebars, or whatever to complete a bike, and those same parts came factory on 10 different models, to me, it's the "correct" part.

if i were to sell the bike, though, i wouldn't claim it as "_original"_ though. i'd say "restored."


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## DonChristie

I am a purist as bikes go. To change a bike over to look like something it is not is a crime. As Phil stated, bikes don't speak. The bike itself is the story. If you change this, you are essentially rewriting history. Just my 0.02 cents.


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## redline1968

cut, replaced,  new paint /touchup, seat upgrades. these are actions the purists ould find disagreeing yet we do it. how many of us replaced a badge or stand  put a better seaton ? are these bikes original? not to them.   what  about putting correct parts on a correct frame is this original? to a purist no.  to anyone else yes. what about the hd museums bike? it has been restored but are the parts there to begin with? we dont knwo but it is called a hd. i say wrong frame -right parts wrong.   right parts - right frame right. might as well throw away all the parts with the purists point of view.


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## DonChristie

What I meant was correct parts on correct bike = good! Correct parts on an incorrect bike (Davis as a HD) = bad. Just my 0.01 cent.


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## redline1968

davis built the hd....  lol that's  ok i really know what you mean.


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## bud poe

Mark, I hope you don't hate me for putting you on the spot....we got everyone talking though!!!  
Dayton or HD, amazing bike and I really do feel lucky to have been able to see it up close...And your right, it made me SICK that you picked it up right in my back yard ( I check C-list DAILY!)...It'd sure be a shame to cover up that "DAVIS BUILT" decal....


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## tony d.

being that it was a Dayton to startwith it isn't a real H.D. bike so restor it as a Dayton any thing els is a fake


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## redline1968

bud you will always be a friend.


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## redline1968

dude were did you get that from? dayton was the company that build the hd bicycle to begin with.  then what is a h-d bicycle? then who built them?  I have another daytonia that is completely different in the construction for the davis company.  it is not a harley.... if i listen to every opinion in my life i would be in the poor house.


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## bud poe

I seem to remember hearing about Montgomery Wards buying out Davis' left-over stock of HD sprockets (after Harley dropped their bicycle line) and throwing the HD sprockets on their Hawthorne Deluxe's (get it, HD?)...Anyone seen one or heard of this?  Head scratcher for sure...


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## Classicriders

I would rat rod that bad boy as a Honda! The HD sprocket could then stand for Honda Dream!


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## Flat Tire

Friend of mine went to look at some old bikes in Columbus Ohio about 15 years ago, when he got there the owner showed him one and asked if he knew what that 'DH' in the sprocket meant.....


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## bud poe

Dude, Heavy....


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## redline1968

i have a harley and a daytonia frame i will strip it and make it a harley then build the datonia.  same frame


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## Talewinds

Flat Tire said:


> J...You never know what kind of questions people will ask, for example if someone did change this bike, and a buyer was interested and said "wow thats a nice bike! is this the way you found it?"....or "was it complete when you found it, or did you add any parts".....I've heard those questions before......then you would be stuck in the position of lying or telling the truth.




What position is there really to be stuck in? The answers just aren't that tough, "It's a Davis Mfg. bike, I like the HD bikes and made the mods to create a nice Harley look-alike." "Is it for sale? Sure, it's for sale, as a Davis mfg. bike with the original hardware."

There's just really no dilemma here. And although a philosophical one, it's still just a conversation about old bikes.


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## bud poe

Talewinds said:


> What position is there really to be stuck in? The answers just aren't that tough, "It's a Davis Mfg. bike, I like the HD bikes and made the mods to create a nice Harley look-alike." "Is it for sale? Sure, it's for sale, as a Davis mfg. bike with the original hardware."
> 
> There's just really no dilemma here. And although a philosophical one, it's still just a conversation about old bikes.




I guess the important part of the question is do you call it a Harley, or a Harley look- alike?  I think Mark's position is that once the changes are made it IS a Harley, he wouldn't call it a "look-alike" or "replica"...I guess I cant speak for him but I believe that's his position...
And I agree, at the end of the day it's just a conversation about old bikes, but why else would we be here??!!!


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## Flat Tire

Talewinds said:


> What position is there really to be stuck in? The answers just aren't that tough, "It's a Davis Mfg. bike, I like the HD bikes and made the mods to create a nice Harley look-alike." "Is it for sale? Sure, it's for sale, as a Davis mfg. bike with the original hardware."
> 
> There's just really no dilemma here. And although a philosophical one, it's still just a conversation about old bikes.




Your right theres no problem with someone saying they liked the HD better so they changed the badge and sprocket, but what I was talking about was in response to the original post which was " if you made it into a HD, would you feel obligated to disclose the bicycles history to the potential buyer? So what I was saying is if you called it an original bike, built for HD by Davis, then how are you going to answer those questions now that youve already said it was original?


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## Talewinds

Flat Tire said:


> Your right theres no problem with someone saying they liked the HD better so they changed the badge and sprocket, but what I was talking about was in response to the original post which was " if you made it into a HD, would you feel obligated to disclose the bicycles history to the potential buyer? So what I was saying is if you called it an original bike, built for HD by Davis, then how are you going to answer those questions now that youve already said it was original?




Yes indeed, one could then find themselves in quite the predicament. 

There seems to be two discussions, or more like two hypothetical situations in question within this thread. The first is the obvious "What would you do?" question. The second question that has surfaced, but was bound to anyway is the "What about the rest of the bike culture and the potentially unscrupulous portion of it that is more than willing to try to pull a fast one on the public."


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## redline1968

there is no replica. its simple.  a restored harley and a daytonia. no tricks no extra holes no anything they are real.


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## bairdco

another thing this topic brings up, is what happens if you buy an old frame that _could_ be a Harley, but you're just not sure?

as an example, i have 4 Colson Imperial-style frames. only 2 have Colson badges, and one of them is badged as an Olympic. 

the Olympic came with a skiptooth sprocket, rear drop stand, and enough pre-war parts to make me believe it's a pre-war bike, yet i can't find any documentation for pre-war olympics.

now, the other two frames could've had Goodyear badges on them for all i know, so would it be wrong to restore them as Goodyear bikes and sell them as such? 

since there's no definite serial number match-ups (that i know of) to differentiate between a Colson badged bike or a Goodyear badged bike, who's to say if it's wrong or right?

badged either way, a Colson and a Goodyear would sell for the same amount of money more or less, so does that lessen the moral dilemna?  

i would still explain to a seller that it's a "restored" bike using correct parts and not a complete original, but it's still something to think about.


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## Talewinds

You bring up a very good point and some very good example bairdco! The comparison has already been made here to the classic car world but I'm not certain it's a good or fair comparison. When it comes to collectible and rare automobiles, there are very few undiscovered forgeries these days. We all admire and trust guys like Phil Marshall here, and there are guys just like him in the automotive world, guys that have REALLY been around. Beyond VIN numbers, the idiosyncrasies of the old cars are "known", often times each and every example of a rare model is known as to it's history and current whereabouts.
 The same cannot be said for old bikes. Bairdco you are correct, there is just too much gray area sometimes to make it worth debating the authenticity of many of these old bikes.


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## dave the wave

but if you want to make a harley.you have to get the correct parts.the drop stand has a diamond cutout instead of the triangle cutout.and the fenders are not 1in.sided but 1 1/4in sided.


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## redline1968

I quess 1 1/8 isnt close enough. guess i junk it. call it a clone....


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## dave the wave

1 1/8in.? that could be how long they are.i know they are longer than 1in.


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## redline1968

depends on where you measure and if you take in the depth of the fenders its more and above the crest is more. i gave myself the lesser. here are some extra photos interesting peddlels they are 2pc and odd. braces are weird also.  i just found those peddles. they are in the 1919 hd catalog as optional torringtons with removable parts to repair them. cool.


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## rustyspoke66

I believe there is a big difference between bairdco's example and redline1968's example. I have also picked up bike without badges and badged them to my likeing as specially with H.P.Snyder built frames, they had all kinds of badges on them and if your starting with a unknown then sure put a badge on there that you like as long as it was something that came on a H.P.Snyder frame. As far as the HD / Daytonia deal, you are starting with a known and that would be a original paint Daytonia. I'm sure that the switch has been done before but that doesn't make it right and I think it may be like messing with history. I mean what would be wrong with owning an original paint Daytonia. Like I said we are dealing with a original piece of history,not a badgeless bike that you can build into what you want.


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## redline1968

i agree, but the fact is that its worth more as a restored hd than the other. shame yes, but thats the way of the world. if I sold it, the person would do just what i will do because its more interesting to represent a harley.  as i said before, it is the same bike just a different color and badging. condition is poor on the paint just the decal is good who's to say that the decal was not on the hd and mabey it was sold at the hd dealership as a lesser cost bike. still its a peice of history just not a cheeper one. alot of harley collectors would enjoy it just as well. if one spot on it was different the there would be no changes.  i do have another frame and can make it a daytonia as well so no harm.


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## fatbike

The hard thing about this hobby is that it is a small world really and its known now to all that it is not a H.D. To make it a HD for yourself is one thing but to sell as one, well, thats kind of misleading. It's still an amazing find as a Dayton "YOU ARE LUCKY" and it should be respected as a Dayton I think. A real close friend and collector of mine once told me " We are the caretakers of these bits of amazing craftsmanship and we should respect them as they are especially if they have made it this far, its kind of our responsibility. Maybe I'm a purest. I know how easy it is to change something because of dollar signs. Many do it. 

Bairdico

As far as Colson's go you couldn't fake the serial numbers, there is always a G for G.Y. or F for F.S. built bikes and if not then it is a Colson only.

Bud and Redline1968 you guys really started quite a tread. Holy Cow!


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## bairdco

cool, fatbike, that's good to know. i never found out any other info on the serial numbers.

do you know what the letters underneath the head badges stand for? i've got one bike with an "E" and another with an "F."


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## fatbike

Usually the numbers underneath or around other than in the serial number itself would indicate the month and year. Example K1 nov. 41.  Now sometimes there is not a seperate letter and number. Usually you can find that the first number in the serial number series would indicate the year made. Example 9 would be a 39. In the main series there would have to be a a letter f or g to determine if it is a FS or GY built. And the same seperate numbers again other than the main serial would indicate a year and month on GY or FS Colson built bikes. So you don't want to build a FS bullnose with a Colson 1940 loopframe, they came out in 41. Loopframed Colsons came out in 40 but I have seen a 39 dated one, perhaps a early 40 for the up coming year.


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## fatbike

I just realized you asked what the serial number is underneath a headbadge. Not sure. I think on later Colsons around 49 and later might of had something stamped. But again I'm not sure.


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## redline1968

its gone. i sold it.  I couldnt resist the cash.


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## bud poe

No way man...


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## redline1968

yep.  i took a friends offer.   he's going to hd it. sorry bud, i know you  loved it.


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## delgan

I'm new to the bicycle hobby, but about 8 yeras ago I bought an old bike at an  old steam engine show swap meet. Didn't know a thing about it but just thought it was neat. I got it out of the barn for the Indy swap a few weeks back. I knew it was a Davis bike from the headbadge. I was loading up when a gentleman stopped to take a second look at it as he had given it a quick look earlier. He asked if I knew what I had. He was giving me a lot of good information about it and that it had HD fenders on it. He also told me of the couple things I could buy for it to make it a HD. I told him that I was just going to leave it as it was--it was going to stay the way it was built. And that I didn't thing it was for sale anymore, that I was going to take his advice on how to clean it up, and just take it to bike events. Like someone above mentioned--'it is only orginial once". I did however really appericate all the info I got from him and his personality--great guy to take to!


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## fatbike

You guys make me sick! Ha! So much energy in this thread on what to do and that's it, bike gone. Funny!


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## Larmo63

Do what you want to, but show some class and conscience.


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## walter branche

*harley bike*

it is a harley bike or it is not,it either came with the sprocket and nameplate or it did not. who are you trying to fool ,. why does it taKE SO much space on the board ????no one is fooling anybody . anyone with half a brain can tell what is right or bogus!! why is it possible in our exclusive hobby, that there is so much BS and fraud -if it is about money!!! get a new hobby or life ,. i am sick of seeing all these, half assed put together bikes in shows .. its like building a model A from a j c whitney catalog- you should be ashamed of yourself to represent a bike for what it is not ,,..  if you can not afford the real piece ,build what your budget will allow.. there are plenty of bikes to restore ,also some fine machines that only need to be wiped off with a clean cloth to make them sweet ,.. the bikes are not rare , it only means you are not there!!!!!,do not turn our long time hobby into a modern game of reality t v !!! spend your hard earned money for something that is complete and real-it makes you look like a BOZO when you think you are fooling the educated public


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## redline1968

our? as if you own the whole collectable and bicycle market and know all of it. hardly. you  should make your own web site. that way you can pick all you want and lie to all.


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## Talewinds

walter branche said:


> "our exclusive hobby"




This is an exclusive hobby? I got into this hobby because it's relatively inexpensive.... Try to find and then afford a 1964 Carrera 4-cam engine.

Again, just fun old bikes. I'm happy you sent it to a good home Redline.


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## redline1968

thanks talewinds.  i appreciate that.  the are a few who think that they are gods and nobody else can enjoy this hobby or know anything at all.  by insulting rat bike community and people who like to restore old bikes is not a hobby.  fakes are discoverd by knowlege sharing if you don't share you dont know.... not buy building a correct bike from parts that are correct for it and can be shown as such.


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## Larmo63

I would personally take that bike and put all HD stuff on it, then put it on Ebay as a Schwinn. Isn't that what everyone else does? : =)


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## chitown

*No Bozos here*

View attachment 18035

I think the fact that the original bike was show here as a Davis pretty much proves the intent was not to deceive the general public or annoy the exclusive bike collectors at local shows. If the true intent was to deceive, then we would never have this thread or the one redline1968 has of when he found the bike on Craiglist. Instead we would only have a thread about the real Bozo's who DO try to deceive by never showing the bike until it comes up for auction represented as a Harley. Then we as a community debate and offer opinions about the authenticity of the bike in question. If it's a fake, it will always be a fake. The HMHS Britannic is not the Titanic but if my hobby shop had a model of a Britannic and was sold out of Titanic models, I could see painting the words Titanic on the side of my Britannic instead of driving 50 miles to the hobby shop that does have the Titanic model. But I wouldn't sell my model. I'm into this hobby because I like the process of working on a project and the satisfaction I get from completing that project.

This thread is about what would *you* do if you were restoring it (Harley of Davis). 2nd part is if you did restore as a Harley, would you disclose info when selling. I think it's safe to say most here would keep it as a Davis unless you are a Harley freak in which case you'd call someone in South Carolina and get that water jet working on that sprocket. The 2nd question is the one that gets tough as Phil pointed out; what happens after it is sold with full disclosure, what is preventing the next person from NOT disclosing the origin of the bike. This is where we as a community can have an impact by recording the serial # and documenting the true origin, sites like this can help, in essence, identify and "catalog" the origin and hopefully prevent deceptive selling in the future.


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## redline1968

Question? Real badge and real sprocket then?  fake or not?  I agree in the bike has the repop parts then it should be disclosed.  In all this work there has been no proof that the parts are not the same as the HD. why? Maybe its the education word (knowledge).  Where is the proof?  If you don't like it, don't buy it . It's that simple.


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## chitown

I blame bud poe for all this trouble. That question of what would you do is a loaded one. In the end it's whatever you want to do with it. Like Walter said there are plenty of good bikes out there. Unfortunately not everyone is loaded with Benjamin's  tacked together with rubber cement to bring to Copake. A poor man's Harley? Maybe so but that bike is a survivor and the fact that it's in the hands of someone in the hobby and not going to the scrap heap is good enough for me. If I built it as a Harley I would still dremel the inside of the bottom bracket stating that it was a Davis built bike... for future generations to decode the past... Or they could just google search "davis restored as a harley" and this thread may come up. No biggie in my book... just wipe, restore, rebuild, part-out, whatever! just take care of them and keep em out of the scrap heap!

If you really wanted to go rouge on the rebuild make it a shaft drive prototype Harley (only one to exist) and sell it to a Hollywood welder for $30,000 or something like that...


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## Talewinds

I still blame American Pickers


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## bud poe

Of course it's a loaded question!!!  Without these types of questions/threads all we have are "look what I just got" and "what do I have and how much money is it worth?" (both of which I'm guilty of)....And I guess that's fine but I also like to dig a little deeper and find out what we are all thinking and feeling about this stuff...Of course I realize none of this really matters in the BIG picture (Americas economic disaster, Libya's civil unrest, Charlie Sheen's "epic" fall from grace, etc.) but it's fun to see what kind of discussion comes from it...


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## Larmo63

Okay, that's all settled, finally. Let's all go and have a beer together and play some pool. "Can't we all just get along?"


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## 4WHLDRFTN

WELL...AS TWOMORESTROKES SAID IN HIS REPLY TO THE HIGGINS HEADER SAGA (THAT HE SHOULD NOT HAVE);
Lately comments on this forum are making it sound like the Pac Schwinn forum that has tumbled.
Last edited by twomorestrokes; 03-08-2011 at 11:13 AM.     NO TWOMORESTROKES , THIS IS WHAT MAKES THAT HAPPEN.. now the the guy with all the info is gone ,, now what..........duhhhhhhhh!   THAT WAS HIS (W.B.) OPINION(SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO THE BANK), THATS WHAT I THINK THIS THREAD WAS LOOKING FOR "OPINION"


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## DonChristie

Now Walter...dont get butt hurt. I for one would HATE to see you disappear in the ether-space. You are very knowledgable especially about the older bikes. Like my Daddy used to say...opinions are like silly heads, everybody has one.


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## 4WHLDRFTN

schwinndoggy said:


> now walter...dont get butt hurt. I for one would hate to see you disappear in the ether-space. You are very knowledgable especially about the older bikes. Like my daddy used to say...opinions are like silly heads, everybody has one.




yup ,  and most of them stink!..........but for someone to share there knowledge (real knowledge) and time, and get smacked down ......long gone ...........................and he's got nothing to loose.


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## Larmo63

I find it amazing that I have been able to go through life without more scars and thumpings. I am seriously a smartass at times, but I could always run pretty fast. Good thing I grew up to be man sized.


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## rustyspoke66

So, Just want to throw this out there. I am new to the hobby compared to allot of guys but now that we have Harley Davidson bikes that technically are not real in heritage does this not take away from the value? I don't think redline1968 is trying to deceive anybody here but the simple act of creating a high end clone or selling the kit to do so in this hobby will eventually deceive somebody. Like someone said earlier these bikes do not have vin # like a vintage car, so how would we track this action. I guess each to his own but I would certainly be cautious of any Harley bike in the future. Also by someone saying this is "our" hobby, Does not imply that it is there hobby alone. I think it means what it means and that it is "our hobby" as in everybody and of course anybody can join. Guys like Walter Branche ,Phil Marshall and others that have a ton of information that they continually share plus a number of years experience that everybody can learn from. So I guess not to sound to prude, but a little less name calling and a little more talking about legit bikes might be in order. It also seems that the purpose of this post at this point was not to create opinion about cloning high end bikes but to get some sort of approval to do such a thing. I guess if a guy gets a 50/50 or less response he feels ok in doing so. Just my 4 cents and I certainly hope nobody leaves this hobby or forum because of this post topic. JT


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## bud poe

Redline1968 didn't start this thread and I don't think he is worried about anyones approval.  I started it about his bikes to see what kind of opinions would come out on this topic.  We had our discussion about it and we both thought it'd be interesting to see what others thought.  I think it's a valid question and obviously a sensitive one, and some people have gotten pretty worked up about it.  It's a bummer that a little mud got thrown around, does this mean we shouldn't talk about it?  If someone leaves the hobby over this I feel sorry for them...
I'll say this, if we are not supposed to bring up "touchy" topics, maybe there should be some rules put in place.  In my opinion things will get pretty stale if we start censoring ourselves...


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## rustyspoke66

I don't mind a touchy topic. But like you said they shouldn't lead to the mud throwing. I knew you were the one to start the thread but it seemed to take on it's own life and 1968 seamed to be the most defensive when it came to this topic or maybe he was just trying to stir the bucket. I could be wrong but that is how it came across. JT


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## bud poe

Yeah well he's got a "dog in the fight" so of course he's going to be opinionated about it.  I know what you mean though, it sucks when it comes to name calling.  Heck, I got a death threat on this message board for a smart*ss comment I made.  Seems like the moderators are pretty good about keeping everyone in check though...
I just like that it got people talking about the "etiquette" of our weird little world...


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## bud poe

He was a weirdo trying to sell a few old bikes on here.  He kept posting the same few bikes, and sometimes he'd start a new thread about them without pics and suggested that any interested parties should search the board for his other posts for pics.  He couldn't seem to figure out why he wasn't having any luck and I quipped something about how he was "really killing it" (insert sarcastic tone here), to which he replied "I'll kill you."
It was all removed and he hasn't been around since then...


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## Larmo63

Old bicycle people are in general, a little weird. Our source of obsession is strange esoterica to most outsiders. They must think us a little weird too. They could be right.


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## redline1968

i fit right in on the obsessive compulsive dept.  I have had death threats on a purchase on ebay awhile back. he wanted to kill me and my family.   i would say it was interesting.   i had to change my bidders name and lost all my money.


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