# Late-60s Raleigh Sprite 5-Speed



## SirMike1983

A few shots from last weekend's ride - late 1960s Sprite with 5-speed Sturmey S5 Hub. It has the oddball dual-stick controls from the S5 of that era, but does have the nice version of the heavy-duty Sturmey bell crank on the non-drive side.


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## wrongway

Very nice! Someday I'd like to try out one of those 5 speeds. They seem like they'd be tricky.


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## bulldog1935

should show a close-up of the shifter and explain it....


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## WVBicycles

very sweet looking Sprite


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## SirMike1983

https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-classic-sturmey-archer-s5-shifter.html

Bottom gear (1st gear both sticks all the way back.






Low - 2d gear - non-drive forward and drive back.






Normal - 3d gear (direct drive) non-drive does not matter, drive is in the middle position.






High - 4th gear - both sticks full forward.






Top - 5th gear - non-drive back, drive side full forward.












View attachment 20170225_132955.jpg


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## bulldog1935

thanks, that's cool


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## Dale Alan

bulldog1935 said:


> thanks, that's cool



+1
I had no clue how that system worked ,very interesting design .Love those shift levers.


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## SirMike1983

Ideally the shifting pattern would be more logical in terms of what the rider has to do to change gears, but these are really driven by the mechanical aspects of the S5. The S5 is created by taking the FW four-speed and supplying a non-drive bell crank. They were able to make a 5-speed simply by continuing to make their four-speed, but with a different shifting mechanism. They later went to a sequential (straight pull to lower gears - 5 stops on one shifter), which is what a modern hub would do today.

In fact, Sheldon Brown has instructions to convert your FW four-speed into a five speed, which is basically the first type S5 hub. You have to change the shifting mechanism to duplicate basically what the factory did to make the S5 from the FW.


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## bulldog1935

My International (derailleurs) is set up with half-steps, and the bike I'm working up next is going to be set up the same way.(mostly because I already have the components)
Half-steps with a wide rear is the ultimate way to get the widest range, narrow-step gearset with the fewest parts.

Shifting the half-steps on the chainrings is the equivalent of having a one-tooth cog change in the rear.
For people used to shifting 11-sp, it seems ungainly, but the shifting algorithm is really simple.

Either up or down, always shift first on the chainring half-steps (left), then shift in the rear as needed (right).
Generally, you always want to get on the big chainring as soon as you can, so you have that half-step down always waiting for you (exception to this rule would be carrying a big load up a long grade, or cruising at a similar cadence with your friends on 11sp bikes).
The point is you're shifting two levers, left and right, most frequently up front, but it works really well. 
The original Lenton GPs were also set up this way, with with 49/46T chainrings.


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## bikerbluz

You have inspired me to go back and pick up an early 70's Sprite, I think, that I came across cheap. This one is brown in color.


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## SirMike1983

They're neat bikes - interesting hubs too.


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## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> They're neat bikes - interesting hubs too.
> 
> View attachment 640576



I read somewhere that Sturmey-Archer introduced the five speed hub in 1967, if my memory is right. I'm guessing that was in response to the 10 speeds, and the expense probably kept them from being more successful, but I don't really know. How long did they make them? There was a S. A. hub on EBay last year, and it looked like it was seven speeds, made in England. Did Sturmey Archer make a seven speed before they were bought out?


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## dnc1

There was also an option with a 3speed hub with a twin or triple rear sprocket in conjunction with a rear derailleur. Giving 6 or 9 speeds, never tried one personally.
There was also a 3speed fixed gear hub, would love one of those!


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## SirMike1983

Oilit said:


> I read somewhere that Sturmey-Archer introduced the five speed hub in 1967, if my memory is right. I'm guessing that was in response to the 10 speeds, and the expense probably kept them from being more successful, but I don't really know. How long did they make them? There was a S. A. hub on EBay last year, and it looked like it was seven speeds, made in England. Did Sturmey Archer make a seven speed before they were bought out?




The 7-speed you saw was probably the late 1990s-era S7 hub. It's an interesting concept, but too little too late for Sturmey in England. By then, the manufacturing tolerances were not as good as in the immediate post-war years as well, and then the shifters were a more modern, plastic thing. 

You raise a good point about the S5. The S5 went through a few variations, with some being pretty awful, and others pretty good. The earlier ones are good, but there are a couple later variations that had issues. The S5 has a bit of perplexing early history. The early S5 really is an FW four-speed with a bell crank added to the non-drive side in order to activate a combination of sun and planetary gears that give you very high overdrive. The FW lacks this because it lacks the bell crank, but it's feasible you could modify the FW to take a bell crank and then have, effectively, an early S5 hub. Sturmey should have done this earlier than it did, and then developed the idea a bit to incorporate a 'no neutral' or 'no in-between-gear' feature. The combination of 5-speeds and no neutral would be really nice to have in, say, 1955-60. But they didn't do it. They had instead continued producing the FW while trying to develop the cheaper SW hub, which was a disaster.  





I do think the S5 is a somewhat late attempt to keep pace with 5 and 10-speed derailleur bikes: 

https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/2017/04/trying-to-keep-pace-with-derailleurs-4.html

It's not a bad idea, but it was impossible for Sturmey to keep pace with 10-speed (later 12-speed) systems, given the money they had to operate. I think Sturmey was, frankly, somewhat starved for money and pressed by its parent company by the mid-1960s to operate as cheaply as possible. Sturmey designs showed such promise from the early years right up to the 1950s, but then the SW marked a turning point. By the time of the S5, we're talking rather low-hanging fruit to squeeze one more, rather high, gear out of the FW design (which itself was 20 years old by then). Even that failed at first - the earliest S5s came with awful, low-quality plastic friction shifters that broke. The earliest S5s also have a weak, sheet metal bell crank that breaks. These had to be revised, and Sturmey did so within about 2-3 years of issuing the S5. 

So I think the S5 Sprite represents the last in an evolutionary line of the "classic" Sports light roadster bikes. You have the Sports frame (a design firmly rooted in the 1930s-40s period), the heavy rear Prestube rack (another 1930s-40s type item), all-steel construction (getting dated by the 1960s), and the S5 hub. You're trying to eek more performance out of a very old school design. That's actually why it appeals to me - it's the final technological development of  this particular line of bikes (though this general style of utility bike is still around, just with more modernized components and newer materials).



dnc1 said:


> There was also an option with a 3speed hub with a twin or triple rear sprocket in conjunction with a rear derailleur. Giving 6 or 9 speeds, never tried one personally.
> There was also a 3speed fixed gear hub, would love one of those!




It's known as 'hybrid' gearing and was particularly popular in the 1950s-60s era. The Cyclo line of conversions comes to mind. They're really neat, but you have to watch which gearing you use with the multiple cogs so you don't get too much overlap in your 6 or 9 speeds. But you can build a really sporty machine out of those.


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## bulldog1935

dnc1 said:


> There was also an option with a 3speed hub with a twin or triple rear sprocket in conjunction with a rear derailleur. Giving 6 or 9 speeds, never tried one personally.
> There was also a 3speed fixed gear hub, would love one of those!



searching "hybrid" drive or gearing on this forum will turn up a lot of examples, and links to other sources.


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## Oilit

Thank you, @SirMike1983. That's interesting, and it makes sense. Considering some of the stories I've read about the British motorcycle industry, I'm actually surprised Sturmey-Archer lasted into the '90's.


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## SirMike1983




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## wrongway

dnc1 said:


> There was also an option with a 3speed hub with a twin or triple rear sprocket in conjunction with a rear derailleur. Giving 6 or 9 speeds, never tried one personally.
> There was also a 3speed fixed gear hub, would love one of those!



There is a 1962 Raleigh on ebay right now that I would love to have. It is a Convertible model and has the hybrid set up. A year ago I bought a 1964 Raleigh Sports primarily because it has this set up on it. It came with a 3 speed dérailleur, but it never fit right so I took one cog off. It will work with two cogs. I haven't played with it much, but I'm thinking about getting back to it.


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## SirMike1983

wrongway said:


> There is a 1962 Raleigh on ebay right now that I would love to have. It is a Convertible model and has the hybrid set up. A year ago I bought a 1964 Raleigh Sports primarily because it has this set up on it. It came with a 3 speed dérailleur, but it never fit right so I took one cog off. It will work with two cogs. I haven't played with it much, but I'm thinking about getting back to it.




They made a bunch of different Cyclo models. Some were specifically made for 2 cogs at 1/8 inch each, while others could handle more cogs, depending on the model. Raleigh supposedly bought up a bunch of the budget models with limited ranges in the late 1950s and early 1960s and tried to mount them on 3-speed bikes. Some of them had such a limited range that they could only handle 2 cogs and really were "add on" items to expand the 3-speed hub gear range, but really the Sturmey 3-speed remained the heart of the hybrid transmission. Cyclo did make some nicer models, but Raleigh seemed to want to experiment with the budget Cyclos. 

The British, and Raleigh in particular, were pretty conservative in their sticking to hub gears, steel parts, and club-style bikes into the 1950s and early 1960s. I saw that Lenton Sports model on eBay - nice bike with slacker frame angles than the higher-end road bikes, but sort of a base model sporting/club bike. If it was a 23 inch frame, I probably would buy it, but I think the shorter frame is a bit too short on 26 inch wheels. The Cyclo-Sturmey hybrid system is a pretty good symbol of the British ambivalence to derailleur systems.

Huret, Suntour and Shimano later did for derailleurs what Sturmey had done years earlier for hub gears in making well-made but affordable parts. Suntour and Shimano ultimately would emerge as the best of the affordable makers.


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## bulldog1935

no offense, but have to call you on that.  Indexing is what Shimano did best to get ahead.  Shimano made a weaker Campagnolo copy, and the weight-saving stress-riser they put in their RD body design has followed through today and they still break, primarily in their cheaper grade metallurgy.  (Including their post-patent copies of SunTour slant parallelogram)
Bike commuters on Sora and Tiagra discover this all the time, and an RD body crack is the first thing to look for in an old Shimano 300 or Exage.

SunTour, yes.  Their design was a clean sheet of paper.  Their patented design was so good that top-line French touring bikes were using SunTour  in place of French derailleurs from 1971 forward (and after '76, it was not uncommon to see a full-Campy race bike with a shiny new Cyclone RD).
From Chorus forward, every Campagnolo RD is a copy of the body and geometry used on the SunTour V and Cyclone.  If you want a new SunTour, look at Microshift (which indexes with Shmano).



where Shimanos crack is at the upper rear pivot in the derailleur body.
If it breaks, you're going to have to call somebody.


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## dnc1

As an aside, I saw a Brompton yesterday with a 14 speed Rohloff hub gear with a belt drive instead of a chain! I wish I had taken some photos, but I was enjoying the criterium racing too much.
The owner, if memory serves correct, also has more than 10 space-frame Moulton bicycles, including a titanium model.
I'll try and remember to take photos next time!


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## 71breeze

ive never seen a 5 speed hub thats so weird and cool


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## SirMike1983

71breeze said:


> ive never seen a 5 speed hub thats so weird and cool




You are not alone. The 3 speed AW hub version was/is THE English bike for many people. But Sturmey had 4 and 5 speed models that showed a lot of potential.


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## SirMike1983




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## Eric Amlie

Handsome!


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## marius.suiram

Just got today a Sprite 5 speed, 3+2.
Hub marked 1967.
But it's a girl's bike.


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## bulldog1935

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/internet-bob/r3DgduHDMqw 
I'll post this up for everybody, a New in packaging 1979 Sports  - he's proud of it.


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