# 1938 Roadmaster Supreme (4-gill)



## fordsnake (Dec 13, 2012)

I just finished stripping off the old paint and priming this RMS. I was amazed at how straight and clean the tank, rack and fenders were. The frame does have the CWC locking fork (not installed). I'm still looking for a Lobdell horizontal spring seat, and one Silver Ray glass lens. Hopefully someone here on the CABE can help me with the missing parts before painting it in the spring?


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## Freqman1 (Dec 13, 2012)

Suuhhhweeett! So what is the color scheme gonna be? Can't wait to see that one finished. V/r Shawn


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## jd56 (Dec 13, 2012)

*Silver Rays....ahhhhh*

Great looking bike but, those double Silver Rays make me drool.
I'm gonna have to get me a prewar just so I have a reason to pay for a set of those rays.


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Dec 13, 2012)

WOOOW is that the bike you were working on today? I like it alot, it just looks awesome just standing still lol...!!


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## JAF/CO (Dec 13, 2012)

looks great

it needs a chain and some grips how can you ride it like that ?


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## fordmike65 (Dec 13, 2012)

Looks great Calrton. Love the cushion stem.


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## fordsnake (Dec 13, 2012)

I've been debating colors for several months now, I usually do a color rendering before I start (see below). I worked up every color offered in 37-38...I'm vacillating between Maroon & Cream and Black & Red (not a Roadmaster color combination).


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## fordsnake (Dec 13, 2012)

JAF/CO said:


> looks great
> 
> it needs a chain and some grips how can you ride it like that ?




Jim, who's riding, I'm just enjoying looking at it! I'm thinking about the "Bluebird" grips, shown on the '37 literature and the patent....LOL!


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## fordsnake (Dec 13, 2012)

fordmike65 said:


> Looks great Calrton. Love the cushion stem.




Mike, so do I...there's some debate on if it's correct...I really don't care. It's illustrated on the 37 patent and that's good enough for me!


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## fordsnake (Dec 13, 2012)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> WOOOW is that the bike you were working on today? I like it alot, it just looks awesome just standing still lol...!!




Yeah George, that's it! Just waiting for that little trinket from you... LOL


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## momona (Dec 13, 2012)

*sweet!*

sweet.  i know you're gonna paint it, but i dig it just primed up! 

do we really need to wait until spring for paint!?


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## slick (Dec 13, 2012)

Looks INCREDIBLE buddy!!! DROOL.................. I'd say the maroon and cream but here are two of my favorites. Btw this is one more bike you own that i want.


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## Larmo63 (Dec 13, 2012)

The yellow (top) one Chris posted should be one of Scott's "Twelve Bikes of Christmas....!"

That is sweet.


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## RMS37 (Dec 14, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> Mike, so do I...there's some debate on if it's correct...I really don't care. It's illustrated on the 37 patent and that's good enough for me!




Oh, come on…. You must care just a bit!

If you like the cushion stem on your bike that will have to suffice as a good enough reason for using the stem, it is not shown on the bike in the patent illustration (drawn in 1936) or _any_ of the period literature that illustrates the 1936-1938 Supremes (or any other CWC product from any year for that matter.) 

The discussion of period illustrations backing up its use has come up before. If you compare the patent illustration with the cushion stem _and_ the 1937 Roadmaster bellows stem, you will see the patent illustration clearly shows the bike with the Roadmaster stem. Yes, it is an illustration, but in an unbiased viewing the CWC bellows stem is the clear winner; the easiest difference to spot is the orientation of the bar clamp bolt. 

As I have noted before I think a misreading of period illustrations is the primary reason the cushion stem has been associated by collectors with CWC's Supreme series bicycles (and why so many girl’s “Miss America” bikes have their handlebars laying on the ground.) 

My sense is that the cushion stem's introduction is later than either the 1937 or 1938 Supreme and that it was one of the many add-on cushioning devices that became available to compensate un-sprung bicycles after many manufacturers began producing spring forks. The dated sources I know of for the cushion stem are in 1940 and 1941. A while ago someone posted an ad for the cushion stem taken from an issue of American bicyclist; the date of that issue might help clear up the appropriateness of the cushion stem on a 1937 or 1938 Supreme as a day-one point of purchase fitment.

There wouldn't be a debate about the stem appearing on CWC Supremes if I hadn't started it and didn't keep it alive and I am not doing so for the sake of argument. When I got my first Supreme the pile of bits contained a cushion stem and I was very happy to get the "correct" stem with the bike, after studying the literature for the bikes I realized the stem was never shown or mentioned in those documents and I came to my conclusions about it. The debate, if there is one, needs to move on to when the cushion stem was actually first produced and no one needs to spend more time squinting at Roadmaster lit to find one.

Correct can have many shades and if the stem was being produced in 1938 it would be a nice accessory for a 1938 Supreme. If it was not available until later it would be a nice upgrade that an owner could have added to their bike in 1939, 1940, or 2012. But, if literary proof is necessary for justifying its use, then you need to go with the CWC bellows stem or the CWC riser stem on a 1937 bike and the riser (or perhaps a Wald #3 on a 1938.)


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## cyclingday (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm glad this conversation about the correct use of the Cushioner Stem for the RMS has come up.
When I got my 37 RMS, it also had the Cushioner stem with it. I thought it was really cool until I tried to ride the bike with it on there. Not the best shock absorbing device ever invented.  They look cool, but that is about all they are good for. 
I wanted the bike to be as original as possible, so I scoured the period literature to try and confirm that the stem needs to on there. But, I did not find it in any of the catalogs. The only place it showed up, was on the cover artwork of the 37 catalog reprints that Classicriders sells.

Because, I wanted to ride the bike, I ended up going with a Wald #3.   It is period correct and reliable. I also liked the way the curved upsweep of the stem mimicked the curve of the tank.

Phil, could you post a picture of the Bellows stem? I am not familiar with that term.

Thanks,

P.S. Spectacular bike Fordsnake. The ride is as good as it looks. You're going to love it!


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## RMS37 (Dec 14, 2012)

cyclingday said:


> The only place it showed up, was on the cover artwork of the 37 catalog reprints that Classicriders sells.




Again, .... No. The same applies to the cover of the 1937 CWC catalog. If you compare that illustration with a CWC "Bellows" stem and a cushioned stem, you will see that the illustration is a depiction of the CWC stem, not the cushioned stem. I understand the confusion since they do have a generally similar appearance and we are looking at illustrations rather than photographs, but it does seem important to me to quash the idea that the use of the stem on 1936-1938 Roadmasters can be backed up by _*any*_ documentation.  There is a picture of the CWC "Bellows Stem" on nostalgic.net, It was either produced by, or exclusively made for CWC, and it appears that it was only produced in late 1936 and into 1937. It is interesting to note it is shown throughout the 1937 catalog appearing even on juvenile models (so it is not accurate to refer to it as a Supreme stem.) I'll look up the Nostagic,net picture and add a link later.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 14, 2012)

Had a little free time. I believe this is the 'bellows' stem. V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday (Dec 14, 2012)

Thanks, for posting that Shawn. I have seen pictures of that elusive little beauty, but I didn't know what to call it.
The Bellows stem, seems appropriate.
Thank you, Phil as well.
When I got my bike, I sent you a private message, but your box is full, so it won't except anymore messages.
My bike is the original paint two tone green one that Don Vaughn
had that was sold by way of Larkin Little.
In the changing of hands, some changes were made to the equipment on the bike, and I just wanted to bring it back to correct as possible.
Early photographs of my bike show it with the Lobdell Toroedo spring saddle.
But, somewhere along the way, it got switched to the long spring Persons that is shown on the cover of the 37 catalog.
Is either seat correct for these bikes?
I have also noticed that my chainring is the early type with the smaller Paisley cutouts.
Is that something that could be correct, or should I change that to the more commonly seen one from the period with the larger cutouts?
One other thing that seems to be different about my bike, is that the built in tail light has the on/off switch at the back of the cannister instead of on the side like the others that I have seen.


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## fordsnake (Dec 14, 2012)

Attached is another photo of the shock-absorbing stem and the Roadmaster "bellow" gooseneck that Phil referenced.


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## Bicycle Belle (Dec 14, 2012)

I wish more collectors would take heed of what Phil has to say about the supreme stem. Then I might be able to put one where it really belongs-on my Miss America! As it stands, they are stupidy high in price due to the fact that people are selling them as part of the RMS package.


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## Bicycle Belle (Dec 14, 2012)

BTW Fordsnake? I LOVE your bike and can't wait to see it finished!! May I ask who is doing your tank decal and would they possibly make one to sell to me?


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## Gary Mc (Dec 14, 2012)

Bike is beautiful just in primer Fordsnake, can't wait to see it painted.


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## fordsnake (Dec 14, 2012)

*Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!*

Phil, you’re so right about documented evidence on the early RMS’s...there's so little published! Therefore, I looked at the impetus, the undeniable published patent drawing filed May 2, 1936, and I discerned something totally different then you.

Often times, a rendering is a portal into the designer’s imagination…a prelude to the finish piece. And too often the concept piece may never be produced because of cost implications, safety features, machining, availability, management changes, etc?  There are too many factors that can occur from the drawing board to the finish result. Similar to concept cars at an Auto Show…the car seen on the stage is rarely produced as seen!

The stem featured in the patent drawing I assumed is the designer's Onnie Mankki concept? He envisioned a uniquely large, “beefy” and bulbous stem...unlike the familiar prevalent stems used on bicycles. You mentioned;“If you compare the patent illustration with the cushion stem and the 1937 Roadmaster bellows stem, you will see the patent illustration clearly shows the bike with the Roadmaster stem". Personally, I don’t see the stem you speak of? 

I carefully re-rendered Mankki's patent illustration and the “cushioned” stem (see pic) to get a visual comparison. Please note, the orientation of the bar clamp bolt you referenced, it is apparent on both stems and actually more pronounced on the cushioned stem. 

The aesthetics of both stems are more similar then they are different, and especially compared to the art deco "bellow" gooseneck.

I interpreted the patent drawing as a conceptual direction…and if you carefully look at the illustration you’ll see other visual discrepancies that were also never produced; the different design pattern on the chain guard, a different rear carrier design, shallow fenders, different truss rods & mounts, and most significantly the different designed “bug” eye tank.  I’d also like to call your attention to the “Bluebird grips” and the absence of the signature RMS curved crank arms!

Theoretically, CWC never produced Mankki's patent illustration...but from a distance it's a close interpretation


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## scrubbinrims (Dec 14, 2012)

Nice 4-gill assembly Carlton and interesting information and interpretation on the RMS.
Just one guy's thought here, but the artistic rendering looks more like the bellows ))) stem to me.
No cushioning aspect of that rendering besides the handlebar mount location discrepancy.
Chris


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## fordsnake (Dec 14, 2012)

Thanks Chris! Regarding the gooseneck...when I lay the patent drawing over a photo of an RMS, it's rather clear there are difference in the outline appearance, the bulbous shock absorber stem is a closer match then the bellow stem in my opinion. But we'll never know since there's no documented evidence or proof?


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## Larmo63 (Dec 14, 2012)

I was also thinking that the general drawing looked like the bellows stem. 

It just dawned on me what Phil's handle means.......Duh

These bikes are wonderful, every bit as rare as Bluebirds and may even be

better looking.


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## cyclingday (Dec 14, 2012)

There is another patent filed by Onnie Mankki on May 29th 1936, that shows a crossbar dashboard similar to the Westfield one that houses what looks like a clock and a speedometer.
It is mounted in a similar manner as the Westfield one, in that the stem quill bolt and the handlebar pinch bolt supports it. The main difference between it and the one Westfield would end up using, is that it also spans out to the handlebars forming a crossbrace. similar to what Schwinn used. As was the case, with the Westfield, the stem would have had a special relationship with the dashboard, so that it sat securely.
I don't know if that dashboard was ever made, but the stem in the dashboard drawing is the same stem in the patent drawing for the 37/38 RMS.
If the bellows stem or the Cushioner stem is that stem, then I find it odd, that they would have produced such a fancy stem for something that was going to be covered by an instrument panel.


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## RJWess (Jun 30, 2013)

Carlton did you ever finish the bike?


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## widpanic02 (Jun 30, 2013)

*!*

Check this out! Freshly restored!


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## slick (Jun 30, 2013)

widpanic02 said:


> Check this out! Freshly restored!View attachment 102739View attachment 102739View attachment 102739





WOW!! That's a great bike. Do you have any before pictures? Would love to see a thread on the whole transformation. Thanks for sharing.


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## RustyK (Jun 30, 2013)

*Salsbury scooter pic!*



widpanic02 said:


> Check this out! Freshly restored!View attachment 102739View attachment 102739View attachment 102739




Beautiful Roadmaster! On a different note, you don't happen to own a salsbury scooter do you? Just saw the pic above the bike.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 30, 2013)

Can you tell us who owns that bike? On my top ten list and one of my favorites BTW! V/r Shawn


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## fordsnake (Jun 30, 2013)

RJWess said:


> Carlton did you ever finish the bike?




Nah, it's still in primer. I had a few other projects I've been working; three Racycles! I'm currently obsessed with completing my build for the RatRodBike contest, once that's done I'll return to Supreme.


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## widpanic02 (Jun 30, 2013)

*!*

Carlton did you pick that up off eBay a little bit back? Friend of mine sold one for around 1400 on eBay. I almost strangled him for not calling me !!!


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## widpanic02 (Jun 30, 2013)

*!*

Yeah um going to buy this in a few months after I tie up some loose ends on other bikes. It's being held for me by a friend. He has that one but he also has this one! 






Also thought you all would enjoy this! Nicest restored aerocycle I have ever seen!


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## jd56 (Jun 30, 2013)

Ahhhh tanklights...
Please post pictures from the front if possible....its all about the tanklights....duh....gosh I love the Supreme and that Aerocycle....got to be the top on my wish list(s)

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## slick (Jun 30, 2013)

WOW!! That's one heck of a collection your friend has. The bikes look great on that hardwood floor. Accentuates them quite a bit. Thanks for sharing.


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## fordsnake (Jun 30, 2013)

widpanic02 said:


> Carlton did you pick that up off eBay a little bit back? Friend of mine sold one for around 1400 on eBay. I almost strangled him for not calling me !!!




Not me...but I think I know who did?


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## Nickinator (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm pretty sure nate picked it up.

Nick.



fordsnake said:


> Not me...but I think I know who did?


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## fordsnake (Jun 30, 2013)

Nickinator said:


> I'm pretty sure nate picked it up.
> 
> Nick.





You didn't hear it from me!


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## Nickinator (Jun 30, 2013)

O boy am i in trouble  

Nick.



fordsnake said:


> You didn't hear it from me!


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## bikewhorder (Aug 10, 2014)

I passed up a chance to buy one of these so called bellows stems yesterday due to a lack of funds.  I'm just wondering though, what are they worth?


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## Freqman1 (Aug 10, 2014)

I was offered a repo at $550 so I would think north of that somewhere. Personally I believe this was only used on the '37 RMS top level model (Lobdell seat, locking for, white walls, streamline pedals). The lower level, if we can really call it that, had the long spring seat, no locking fork, deluxe pedals, and black wall tires. It used a different stem that kind of comes to a cone shape at the top. Just my observations. I really wish Phil would join us again and add to this discussion. I suspect he only logs in now as a guest to stay out of the fray. V/r Shawn


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## JAF/CO (Aug 10, 2014)

*$700 ++++++++++++++++++*


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## RUDY CONTRATTI (Aug 11, 2014)

*Our town is a better place now*

YO THRILLER Love the bike   Ive got a project coming today  an elgin  miss America 1939  (well almost)  could use some advise Ill see ya around our good town  and we can talk
ALL THE BEST    RUDY C


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## Iverider (Aug 11, 2014)

bikewhorder said:


> I passed up a chance to buy one of these so called bellows stems yesterday due to a lack of funds.  I'm just wondering though, what are they worth?




Who cares about the stem! Did you get that blue streak?


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## whizzer kid (Apr 6, 2017)

I seen this post about stems , and could use some help with this recently purchased 4 gill. Stem looks off to me. I am not exactly sure the correct style stem for this bike would've been??.


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## CWCMAN (Apr 6, 2017)

I would go with the cathedral stem or the Wald #3

The stem you have is defenitly not correct.

Love the 4 Gill


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