# Anybody know what this was originally?



## Oilit

I've been looking at this old Schwinn lightweight with an odd derailleur bracket. The seller lists it as a Schwinn New World, but I'm thinking maybe an early Continental? I'll post the serial if I get it from the seller.


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## WillWork4Parts

Parts look World-like, besides the obvious late model stuff. Seat tube to top tube looks fillet brazed, but it looks like the smaller 1" clamp, not the oversized Continental tubing...from here at least. Not sure I've ever seen a non-Paramount with a brazed on derailleur mount...slotted for something French??


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## Robert Troub

Definitely a franken-bike


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## J-wagon

Wow. Interesting gear setup sturmey archer 3 speed with multispeed rear derailleur.


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## SirMike1983

Looks like a one-piece crank and the smaller tube size, so not the fillet-brazed Continental. I would agree it's a mixmaster of parts.


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## The Spokemaster

Don't let Ralph Nader see this bicycle


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## 49autocycledeluxe

when did they stop using the small round head badge? 1952?  shifter and fenders are later than the stem and brake levers.

the head badge will say something other than the World if it is something else


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## SirMike1983

If that three speed shifter is original, it would date the bike to 1948 - 51. The solid silver face shifter was used only very briefly before the window shifters came in. The brake levers pre-date the transition to foreign sources. My guess is someone took a late 40s or very early 50s New World and some years later added a bunch of stuff to it.


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## 49autocycledeluxe

looks like some cool pedals on there as well.


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## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> If that three speed shifter is original, it would date the bike to 1948 - 51. The solid silver face shifter was used only very briefly before the window shifters came in. The brake levers pre-date the transition to foreign sources. My guess is someone took a late 40s or very early 50s New World and some years later added a bunch of stuff to it.



I didn't think about the one-piece crank, but you're right, that rules out a Continental. I know some of the early lightweights had an option for hybrid gearing, but would they have used that derailleur bracket? The bracket looks factory, at least from what's in the pictures.


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## Oilit

The Spokemaster said:


> Don't let Ralph Nader see this bicycle



If Ralph wants to buy this bike out from under me, I probably won't fight him too hard.


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## 49autocycledeluxe

how much do they want?


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## SirMike1983

You'd have to take a close look in person and review what catalogs can be found on the issue. The catalogs themselves don't always show or list everything that existed, but it's better than no guide at all. If the bracket is an old addition, done by a skilled framebuilder, and the bike has been painted since, it can be very hard to tell if factory or not based on photos. I would lean towards aftermarket addition, but "never say never" with these old lightweights because you could custom order them if you really wanted something added. The easy ones are the new changes or sloppy ones. The ones that are hard to tell are the ones done a long time ago by someone who knew what they were doing. In person examination often reveals more than the online photos. It's an interesting project but I would not throw big money after that.


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## Oilit

49autocycledeluxe said:


> how much do they want?



They're asking $200.00, but it's been up a while, so they may be open to offers. It's outside Pittsburgh, so if somebody local is interested, go for it. If I was already heading up that way I'd take a look, but that won't be anytime soon.


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## 49autocycledeluxe

Oilit said:


> They're asking $200.00, but it's been up a while, so they may be open to offers.



the brake levers alone are worth $100 or more. those steel "Schwinn Built" brakes are probably worth the same... they don't pop up for sale too often.


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## Oilit

49autocycledeluxe said:


> the brake levers alone are worth $100 or more. those steel "Schwinn Built" brakes are probably worth the same... they don't pop up for sale too often.



You could probably do pretty well on the parts but if I got it, it would be a project, and I've already got a dozen more waiting.


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## 49autocycledeluxe

if it were local and cheaper I'd buy it for a project as well. I watch those brake levers on ebay and even rusty ones they want $100.00 minimum.


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## Schwinny

The derailleur says Le Tour. First gen?
That bracket looks like it's og. There are pics here somewhere of a Conti with the super rare cyclo option although this doesn't seem to be a Continental.
How long were world racers offered?
Maybe an ordered upgrade?
spitballin'
ask for the SA hub date maybe.


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## GTs58

Sure looks like a thrown together back yard custom to me. I wonder how it rides and shifts. It may take a double hit on the clutch pedal to shift that.  😜


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## juvela

-----

the gear hanger appears it may be one of the patterns from Huret

catalogue page of 1956 -






Simplex (Juy) and Cyclo of England

had similar gear hanger patterns

Cyclo of England hanger -





this is item Ref. no. T/E

-----


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## 49autocycledeluxe

I almost bought some European bike because it had the 3-speed plus derailleur set up, but I was able to resist the urge


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## borgward

I was wondering if I could do something like that on my Raleigh 3 Speed until I saw a 12 speed World Sport in a junk store.


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## borgward

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> the gear hanger appears it may be one of the patterns from Huret
> 
> catalogue page of 1956 -
> 
> View attachment 1612042
> 
> Simplex (Juy) and Cyclo of England
> 
> had similar gear hanger patterns
> 
> Cyclo of England hanger -
> 
> View attachment 1612045
> 
> this is item Ref. no. T/E
> 
> -----



My 1961 Continental 10 Speed came with a Simplex derailleur similar to that. A real piece of junk. Saved up my lunch money and got something better.


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## Oilit

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> the gear hanger appears it may be one of the patterns from Huret
> 
> catalogue page of 1956 -
> 
> View attachment 1612042
> 
> Simplex (Juy) and Cyclo of England
> 
> had similar gear hanger patterns
> 
> Cyclo of England hanger -
> 
> View attachment 1612045
> 
> this is item Ref. no. T/E
> 
> -----



Good information! Thank you Juvela!


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## Oilit

borgward said:


> My 1961 Continental 10 Speed came with a Simplex derailleur similar to that. A real piece of junk. Saved up my lunch money and got something better.



From what I've read on the "Disraeli Gears" website, the Huret Alvit came out in the early '60's, and those older designs were soon dropped after that. I believe the first year Continental was the only one to use the Simplex. Have any pictures?


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## Oilit

Disraeli Gears - a derailleur collection
					

“You know how the title came about - Disraeli Gears - yeah? We had this Austin Westminster, and Mick Turner was one of the roadies who’d been with me a long time, and he was driving along and Eric (Clapton) was talking about getting a racing bicycle. Mick, driving, went ‘Oh yeah - Disraeli...




					www.disraeligears.co.uk


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## borgward

Oilit said:


> From what I've read on the "Disraeli Gears" website, the Huret Alvit came out in the early '60's, and those older designs were soon dropped after that. I believe the first year Continental was the only one to use the Simplex. Have any pictures?



No pictures. Got the Continental in 1961. Brand new. Might have been an earlier year that never sold. Did not see any 10 speeds in Houston until the late 60's. You could drive a motor scooter at age 14 then. Drive a car in exceptional cases  to help family. No need for bikes. Parents got me the bike as they did not want me to have a motor scooter - NO YOU CANNOT BUY ONE WITH YOUR OWN MONEY.


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## GTs58

The Allvit branded derailleur came out in 1958. The Continental 10 speed was introduced in 1960 and was upgrade for the 2nd half of the 1961 production with Huret equipment. The Varsity was upgraded to a 10 speed from an 8 speed at the time also but did not have Huret equipment until the 1962 model.  So the facts are more than incorrect in the DISRAELI GEARS write up. 

*Quote:* 
In 1955 Schwinn introduced their first derailleur bicycle - the Schwinn Continental. It was not a success. However in 1960 they introduced the Schwinn Varsity model and kicked off the first in a series of booms in the sales of derailleur bicycles that reverberate to this day.

The first Schwinn Approved derailleurs were Huret Allvits. I have been told that the ‘bash guard’ on the outside of the second style of Allvit (introduced in 1961) may have been added at Schwinn’s request. Certainly the timing would match, as Schwinn moved their Varsity model from Simplex to the Huret Allvit for the 1961 model year. This was before the Schwinn Approved label was in use.


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## Oilit

GTs58 said:


> The Allvit branded derailleur came out in 1958. The Continental 10 speed was introduced in 1960 and was upgrade for the 2nd half of the 1961 production with Huret equipment. The Varsity was upgraded to a 10 speed from an 8 speed at the time also but did not have Huret equipment until the 1962 model.  So the facts are more than incorrect in the DISRAELI GEARS write up.
> 
> *Quote:*
> In 1955 Schwinn introduced their first derailleur bicycle - the Schwinn Continental. It was not a success. However in 1960 they introduced the Schwinn Varsity model and kicked off the first in a series of booms in the sales of derailleur bicycles that reverberate to this day.
> 
> The first Schwinn Approved derailleurs were Huret Allvits. I have been told that the ‘bash guard’ on the outside of the second style of Allvit (introduced in 1961) may have been added at Schwinn’s request. Certainly the timing would match, as Schwinn moved their Varsity model from Simplex to the Huret Allvit for the 1961 model year. This was before the Schwinn Approved label was in use.



I was going off of memory for the Huret's introduction, so it may be my fault instead of the website. 
Pridmore and Heard also mentioned a derailleur Schwinn introduced in the mid-50's but I haven't seen any pictures.


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## GTs58

Oilit said:


> I was going off of memory for the Huret's introduction, so it may be my fault instead of the website.
> Pridmore and Heard also mentioned a derailleur Schwinn introduced in the mid-50's but I haven't seen any pictures.



What I quoted on the Allvit and what Schwinn offered was from the DISRAELI GEARS site. Not your fault. 
One of the special models I know of in the 50's that was offered with a derailleur option was the Town & Country tandem. Over the years I've seen maybe two tandems equipped with a derailleur but don't remember what the make was and the option was specific for certain years. Here's the derailleur options for 1951 on the Continental Clubman and the World Traveler Clubman.
Even if DISRAELI GEARS was thinking about these models, they are still wrong. 
 There was a Conti Clubman with a derailleur posted here on the Cabe, and I think it was a Tourist version.


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## GTs58

Here's the Continental Clubman with a derailleur. Looks like it's attached to a coaster brake arm but I really can't see all the details. 






And here is another interesting piece. 









Both are in this thread.  https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/53-schwinn-continental-9-sp.87453/


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## Oilit

GTs58 said:


> Here's the Continental Clubman with a derailleur. Looks like it's attached to a coaster brake arm but I really can't see all the details.
> 
> View attachment 1617812
> 
> And here is another interesting piece.
> 
> View attachment 1617813
> 
> View attachment 1617814
> 
> Both are in this thread.  https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/53-schwinn-continental-9-sp.87453/



I vaguely remembered those bikes but I couldn't remember what thread they were in. Thanks for the link!


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## WillWork4Parts

The coaster brake arm approach seems more stable, but less factory. The 2 clamp approach...not sure how easy it would be to spin the assembly on the chainstay...but it looks a little less backyard add-on than the brake arm. The brazed on bracket in the original post certainly looks more professional, but the updated derailleur doesn't. 
All neat stuff, but still nothing to validate a factory braze on for a forward facing drop out frame with American bottom bracket. 
Maybe find out the serial number/year of the bike for sale and then find similar year Paramount drivetrain assemblies??


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## Schwinny

Thanks for those pics all in one place @GTs58.
The bottom pic above is a definite add-on.
That's a push/pull Cyclo which was replaced by the offy single cable style sometime in the40's.
The the middle pic is the same
And the top pic of the green bike looks to be maybe a simplex using an add on bracket of the same style that is brazed on the OP subject bike.


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## SirMike1983

I just don't think that braze-on is factory. I think it's a 1949-50 New World (based on the unusual, short-lived shifter) that was modified. The braze-on looks to have been done by someone who knew what they were doing (going as best as possible from the photos) aftermarket.


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## Schwinny

Probably not.
The cyclo instructions say whether brazing or clamped, the bracket must be at a 90 degree angle to the ground not the stays(paraphrasing)
I'd post it but I'm not at home on my laptop

It was offered aftermarket both ways.
That's not a period cyclo style bracket so just assuming...


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## Schwinny

Ok, here is the sheet for the push/pull Cyclo / Benelux.
One thing to note is the presence of a screen door derailleur return spring and bracket.
The single cable with a helical return spring on the slide shaft was the next iteration after push/pull. It used the same-ish brackets without cable stops until the 50's when it then went to a dropout/ axle hangar.
I have the push / pull style that came on an old bike and the 50's style in use on another bike. The 50's style has a dropout hangar and uses a Sturmey Archer style pull chain to move the derailleur back and forth.
So I guess we can rule out Cyclo as the OP's hangar bracket.
If I get time today, I'll look up the Simplex stuff, but I think that Huret "Tourist monoblok" bracketry pictured that Juvela posted earlier is most likely.


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## SirMike1983

Oilit said:


> They're asking $200.00, but it's been up a while, so they may be open to offers. It's outside Pittsburgh, so if somebody local is interested, go for it. If I was already heading up that way I'd take a look, but that won't be anytime soon.




It's kind of borderline at $200 buy-in as a project when you consider additional money to clean, replace rotted wear items, probably re-paint, etc. True, you could probably get back your money parting it out, but buying-in as a project to have a hybrid geared bike, you're going to be in quite deep once you are done with the project.


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## Oilit

WillWork4Parts said:


> The coaster brake arm approach seems more stable, but less factory. The 2 clamp approach...not sure how easy it would be to spin the assembly on the chainstay...but it looks a little less backyard add-on than the brake arm. The brazed on bracket in the original post certainly looks more professional, but the updated derailleur doesn't.
> All neat stuff, but still nothing to validate a factory braze on for a forward facing drop out frame with American bottom bracket.
> Maybe find out the serial number/year of the bike for sale and then find similar year Paramount drivetrain assemblies??






SirMike1983 said:


> It's kind of borderline at $200 buy-in as a project when you consider additional money to clean, replace rotted wear items, probably re-paint, etc. True, you could probably get back your money parting it out, but buying-in as a project to have a hybrid geared bike, you're going to be in quite deep once you are done with the project.



I have to agree. If it's a Huret bracket, then I would want to find a "Touriste Monobloc" derailleur along with a Huret shift lever to get it "period correct", and unless you've got some stashed you're going to have to do some digging. And then even once it's finished, it's not like it's a Sting-Ray or a Phantom. I've got two projects with hybrid gears, a 1951 Humber with a Simplex and an early '60's Raleigh-built Western Flyer with a Cyclo/Benelux, and they were less than $200.00 combined. They're interesting bikes, but in the market they're more curiosities than anything else. On the other hand, if I was in the area, it wouldn't hurt to make an offer. The New Worlds are good bikes and I've got a day job to pay the bills.

Some pictures of the Humber in this thread, 2nd page:








						Humber Sports 3-speed with tubular front fork. | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

What was the asking price?   The price was not marked on the Humber and I did not happen to ask. Mostly I just found the bike to be very interesting with the tubular front fork, never saw one of those before.  I looked up the contact info. for where I saw the bike. It was in Negaunee, MI a bit...




					thecabe.com
				




And @3-speeder has a pretty Raleigh with the Cyclo/Benelux here:








						62? Raleigh Sports with 'Lenton' Dual Drive | Vintage Lightweight Bicycles
					

I picked up this Raleigh over the weekend. I'm really happy to have it. It has a 23" frame, beautiful paint scheme and a dual drive system that I haven't seen before. The Sturmey Archer hub is stamped 61 12  and it has three cogs attached and a Benelux dérailleur. I've found a 62 catalog that...




					thecabe.com
				




Does anybody have pictures of the Huret?


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## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> I just don't think that braze-on is factory. I think it's a 1949-50 New World (based on the unusual, short-lived shifter) that was modified. The braze-on looks to have been done by someone who knew what they were doing (going as best as possible from the photos) aftermarket.



I took another look at the 1951 options list that @GTs58 posted. It states that the Benelux derailleur was available on the C16 and W19. If you look on the price list on the Waterford Bikes/Tom Findley catalog scans, those are the Continental Clubman and the World Traveler Clubman. I don't remember ever seeing a "World Traveler Clubman", so I'm not going to rule out this being factory just yet. 
Now I'm getting an itch to go see this bike. Darn it Gary, I don't need any more projects!


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## borgward

GTs58 said:


> The Allvit branded derailleur came out in 1958. The Continental 10 speed was introduced in 1960 and was upgrade for the 2nd half of the 1961 production with Huret equipment. The Varsity was upgraded to a 10 speed from an 8 speed at the time also but did not have Huret equipment until the 1962 model.  So the facts are more than incorrect in the DISRAELI GEARS write up.
> 
> *Quote:*
> In 1955 Schwinn introduced their first derailleur bicycle - the Schwinn Continental. It was not a success. However in 1960 they introduced the Schwinn Varsity model and kicked off the first in a series of booms in the sales of derailleur bicycles that reverberate to this day.
> 
> The first Schwinn Approved derailleurs were Huret Allvits. I have been told that the ‘bash guard’ on the outside of the second style of Allvit (introduced in 1961) may have been added at Schwinn’s request. Certainly the timing would match, as Schwinn moved their Varsity model from Simplex to the Huret Allvit for the 1961 model year. This was before the Schwinn Approved label was in use.



I got my Continental 10 speed in mid summer 1961. I came with the Simplex derailleur. How did that happen, since the only Schwinn approved ones were Huret or Allvits? Was it up to the store to outfit the bike and it decided to go no Schwinn approved?


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## GTs58

borgward said:


> I got my Continental 10 speed in mid summer 1961. I came with the Simplex derailleur. How did that happen, since the only Schwinn approved ones were Huret or Allvits? Was it up to the store to outfit the bike and it decided to go no Schwinn approved?




The 1961 Continental had a mid year production change with all new Huret components and Atom freewheel, plus a new decal package. None of these parts had Schwinn Approved on them nor did any later Huret equipped road bikes until 1968 when the Sprint branded Huret parts were replaced. This is my late 1961 Radiant Red Continental and Coppertone 1962 Conti that was spec'd pretty much identical to the late 1961 model.


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## GTs58

Oilit said:


> I took another look at the 1951 options list that @GTs58 posted. It states that the Benelux derailleur was available on the C16 and W19. If you look on the price list on the Waterford Bikes/Tom Findley catalog scans, those are the Continental Clubman and the World Traveler Clubman. I don't remember ever seeing a "World Traveler Clubman", so I'm not going to rule out this being factory just yet.
> Now I'm getting an itch to go see this bike. Darn it Gary, I don't need any more projects!
> 
> View attachment 1619530




😂 I'm sorry, and this also piqued my interest. I knocked on @rennfaron's door and then asked if he's ever seen a World Traveler Clubman. And one with a derailleur! He responded with a 1951 catalog image of that model and believes it was only a 1951 thing, if it did actually get produced. Then the 1960 catalog page with the 8 speed Traveler and Racer came to my mind. These never materialized as far as I know.
Do you have the serial number of the piece in question?


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## WillWork4Parts

Found this randomly on Google...with no date info. 😒
Looks like yer Cyclo braze on and the maroon clubman's hasp clamp option in the same diagram. 

Opened up more confusion though. I had a Paramount on the stand with dropouts similar to this diagram...I thought they were called Osgear dropouts?(according to what the serial number came up as on a Paramount registry), and it was supposedly a 47 model. I found this dropout/year  info after I was tasked with reconnecting the Benelux setup  ...and couldn't find hardware to get the shifter mounted correctly(lack of square lug or cyclo lock washer to fit the 2-flat lug). Thinking I've seen similar Cyclo derailleurs identified as 47's too. 










Glad to see the World was available as a Clubman model too though!

Edit to clarify, I don't think the Benelux dropout mount derailleur was correct on this blue Paramount...and thinking the type in the diagram was more apropriate for this World and  that Paramount.


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## Schwinny

Nice. Another iteration.
I don't think that's in the cyclo folder in the VCC library. I've seen that derailleur bracket on the, what im now assuming is the earlier style  stay bracket.
Still has the push pull and the screen door spring.
At this point, I'd have to go get that bike if I were close.
It's gonna have to be a Traveler clubman...the pull of the esoteric.


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## Oilit

GTs58 said:


> 😂 I'm sorry, and this also piqued my interest. I knocked on @rennfaron's door and then asked if he's ever seen a World Traveler Clubman. And one with a derailleur! He responded with a 1951 catalog image of that model and believes it was only a 1951 thing, if it did actually get produced. Then the 1960 catalog page with the 8 speed Traveler and Racer came to my mind. These never materialized as far as I know.
> Do you have the serial number of the piece in question?
> 
> View attachment 1619721
> 
> 
> View attachment 1619727



I've tried contacting the seller three times so far, but have yet to hear back. It makes me wonder if he's sold the bike but is too slack to take the ad down.


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