# Ca. 1896 Schwinn "The World" Men's



## Jesse McCauley (Jan 13, 2021)

Exciting start to the week- 
Monday night I got a message from a guy I sold an old project bike to locally about a old Schwinn on craigslist just inside the border of WV . 
Two photos and a brief description of indeed an "Old Schwinn" - 

I called with no semblance of poker-voice, I told him what I thought it was, how much I wanted to be the next steward, and asked him when/where. 
His price was modest, he was kind enough to pull it down from CL immediately after only a couple hours of being listed. 
I was happy to give him over asking and he was happy to see this bicycle go out into the collectors community. 

So the backstory on the bike as I have it: 
Owned last by a now deceased sign maker / motorcycle builder / antiques dealer / renaissance man in Martinsville, WV. 
From the story I was told his collection was impressive. 

Apparently a flood some decades ago claimed an outbuilding where this bicycle had lived for many years prior.
His neighbor and apprentice was cleaning up his yard and found it in a mud pit, he was told to toss it. 
Instead he snuck it in a broke down box truck next door they used for runoff storage. 

Flash forward 30 years:
The original owner has passed, his collection dispersed; The now veteran sign builder apprentice owns the properties his predecessor once owned and is in the process of selling all of it so he can take to the road in his oversized Mercedes van. 

The CL photos are from inside the box truck that sheltered it from the elements for the last lifetime, still there when I went to pick it up. 

Perhaps the dirtiest bicycle I've ever handled. Caked with flood mud, every exposed tube that could have been filled with mud was, fortunately just a couple areas. 
Shown is a closeup of the block chain to get an impression of how this whole bike looked when I got it. 

This machine sports a 24" seat tube - Serial No. 1016 
Placeholder wheelset just to get it off the ground while I clean the the gear. 
More pictures to follow as I get some work done on it, just going to clean in this stage.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jan 13, 2021)

cool beans.


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## lgrinnings (Jan 13, 2021)

A very select number of bicycles give you that "electric" feeling when you see them and hear their story. This is one of those bikes. Incredible snag Jesse.


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## cr250mark (Jan 13, 2021)

Great early Tall Badge
Cleaned up nicely so far !
Looking forward to soon see it back on the road ! 
Nice catch Jesse



Mark


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## John G04 (Jan 13, 2021)

Awesome story, that good it wasn’t just left in the mud to die after the flood. Very nice!


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## Jeff54 (Jan 13, 2021)

And straight out of; 'Possibly the oldest Schwinn catalog?':




Possibly the oldest Schwinn catalog ? your thoughts.... | All Things Schwinn | The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange (thecabe.com)

What a Privilege to Dig up, Possibly, the oldest Model # 2. Light Roadster frame too. (Note: Up-right handle bar on embossed cover)


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## cyclingday (Jan 13, 2021)

Amazing find, Jesse.
Congrats!


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## Blue Streak (Jan 13, 2021)

The World serial number references:

From 1896 issues of _The Referee:_

World SN 2709 was stolen during the week ending June 16, 1896
World SN 1984 was stolen during the week ending July 14, 1896
World SN 1980 was stolen during the week ending October 27, 1896
World SN 2242 was stolen during the week ending October 27, 1896

From October 17, 1895 issue of _The Bearings_, Schwinn planned to build 6000 bicycles for 1896.


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## Jeff54 (Jan 13, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> The World serial number references:
> 
> From 1896 issues of _The Referee:_
> 
> ...



Yes, of course, I did not mean to imply that, this is, like, _thee_ oldest, but at "Serial No. 1016" it is "Possibly" the oldest Model 2. Light Roadster known to still exist.


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## ccmerz (Jan 13, 2021)

An early contender for bike find of the year!!


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## cyclingday (Jan 13, 2021)

So what was the difference between the model 1 and the model 2 ?
They appear to be the same bike.


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## Blue Streak (Jan 13, 2021)

Here is description of 1896 World models:


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## cyclingday (Jan 13, 2021)

It looks like the difference between the model 1 and the model 2, was the model 2 got lighter weight tires, saddle and pedals.
Since the saddle chassis appears to be the only original part left from those specifications, it looks like determining what that saddle chassis is, will determine if it’s a model 1 or a model 2.
Good stuff!
Thanks for posting, Blue Streak.


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## Blue Streak (Jan 14, 2021)

More more early references to the formation and history of the company. They confirm Arnold, Schwinn & Co. was formed October 1895 and that 1896 was first year The World bicycle was produced and that over 5000 were manufactured that first year.

October 18, 1895 - The Wheel:




November 1, 1895 - The Wheel:








November 8, 1895 - The Wheel:




November 22, 1895 - The Wheel:




December 13, 1895 - The Wheel:




December 20, 1895 - The Wheel:




December 27, 1895 - The Wheel:








January 24, 1896 - The Wheel:




April 2, 1897 - The Wheel:




December 17, 1897 - The Wheel:




December 24, 1897 - The Wheel:


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 14, 2021)

Plenty of reading material between my greasy hand time today! 
Thank you @Jeff54 @cyclingday and @Blue Streak for the original reference material! 

Time for some close bicycle study!


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## Jeff54 (Jan 14, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> Here is description of 1896 World models:
> View attachment 1338432





Jesse McCauley said:


> Plenty of reading material between my greasy hand time today!
> Thank you @Jeff54 @cyclingday and @Blue Streak for the original reference material!
> 
> Time for some close bicycle study!



Here is an other topic, searching for anything in 1898 and older by @Freqman1
https://thecabe.com/forum/members/freqman1.4154/

(1) Oldest Schwinn Privately Owned | All Things Schwinn | The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange (thecabe.com)

And there's a photo that's particularly interesting that I have not seen noted before: The front chain wheel is not the same as shown in catalogs and such. Plus in background, right corner, appears to be forks hanging on something, two colored. Presumably, lower half of forks are Nickel plated. At right center; White tiers on the bikes. This photo is suppose to be 1895 but I have my doubts as to  accuracy of that claim. . :






(1) Oldest Schwinn Privately Owned | All Things Schwinn | The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange (thecabe.com)


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## Freqman1 (Jan 14, 2021)

Probably need to ask the mods to merge these two threads and call it the "Pre-1900 Schwinn Thread" Since this bike came to light I have some additional observations on these early bikes. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Jan 14, 2021)

Jeff54 said:


> Here is an other topic, searching for anything in 1898 and older by @Freqman1
> https://thecabe.com/forum/members/freqman1.4154/
> 
> (1) Oldest Schwinn Privately Owned | All Things Schwinn | The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange (thecabe.com)
> ...



My guess is that photo is about 1897. At least a couple of the early bikes in the BMA are incorrectly dated. I believe Schwinn spent the last part of '95 setting up the factory and getting the business side situated in order to hit it hard for '96. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Jan 14, 2021)

Jesse McCauley said:


> Exciting start to the week-
> Monday night I got a message from a guy I sold an old project bike to locally about a old Schwinn on craigslist just inside the border of WV .
> Two photos and a brief description of indeed an "Old Schwinn" -
> 
> ...



Unless the girls bike in the BMA has an earlier serial this is it. Although the bike in the BMA is identified as a '95 its actually at least a '96 and possibly a '97. It would be interesting to know if Schwinn started their serial number system with "1", "1000", or maybe "1001"? V/r Shawn


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## PJ Fitz (Jan 14, 2021)

Jeff54 said:


> Here is an other topic, searching for anything in 1898 and older by @Freqman1
> https://thecabe.com/forum/members/freqman1.4154/
> 
> (1) Oldest Schwinn Privately Owned | All Things Schwinn | The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange (thecabe.com)
> ...



Jesse, that photo appears to have been taken in the basement of Arnold & Schwinn's first production facility at Lake and Peoria which still stands. Note the high windows to admit some daylight at a time when electric lighting was not yet adequate for close work. It was likely a long exposure as can be seen by the fact that the face of the man nearest the camera and the hands of the man at the bench appear to have been retouched, presumably because they moved while the shutter was open and were blurred. This was common when negatives were large and could be easily retouched by hand. 

I've owned the 6-story + basement building since 1999 and have wondered what space A & S had leased for their factory and it makes sense that they would have occupied the basement as below grade space would be less expensive and had the advantage of a concrete (fireproof) floor safer for brazing than the wood floors above. There are other photos from the period showing Ignaz in his office and other workspaces in the building that were clearly taken on upper floors where the windows are much larger and the ceilings higher so it seems they also rented some space on those floors.

By 1900 the firm had attained sufficient success to require larger facilities. They purchased the factory of the failed March-Davis Bicycle Company at a receiver's sale that year and moved to that location by 1901where they remained while expanding the plant over the years. It was closed in 1982 following a crippling 13-week strike in 1980 that was the company's first in it's 85 year history. 1,400 workers lost their jobs and it marked the end of Schwinn's years as a Chicago manufacturer. Although the company continued for a time, it's bikes were subsequently made elsewhere.






  1895                                                                   2021


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## bricycle (Jan 14, 2021)

Jeff54 said:


> Here is an other topic, searching for anything in 1898 and older by @Freqman1
> https://thecabe.com/forum/members/freqman1.4154/
> 
> (1) Oldest Schwinn Privately Owned | All Things Schwinn | The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange (thecabe.com)
> ...



Anyone notice the face of the fella in the foreground was redone, not from the actual photo?


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 14, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Unless the girls bike in the BMA has an earlier serial this is it. Although the bike in the BMA is identified as a '95 its actually at least a '96 and possibly a '97. It would be interesting to know if Schwinn started their serial number system with "1", "1000", or maybe "1001"? V/r Shawn




I just called over there and spoke to Ryan Long who very helpful- 
He confirmed the women's "The World" in the BMA collection has the serial: "3051"


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## Jeff54 (Jan 14, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> My guess is that photo is about 1897. At least a couple of the early bikes in the BMA are incorrectly dated. I believe Schwinn spent the last part of '95 setting up the factory and getting the business side situated in order to hit it hard for '96. V/r Shawn



Yeah, I would not object to that thought except, I do not find or see those chain rings in that assembly shop photo, on any Schwinn anywhere TOC or post too 1910. Not in any advertising or photographic images, other than its self, have you?


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 14, 2021)

A couple more details of this machine- 
The only damage I discovered was on the stem, it appears it was broken and repaired to the best of the shop ability, it is pretty globby and bent. 
It has a very particular style of "key" that offers fine adjustment of the bar by removing and re-inserting at different keyed angles. 
I would probably have gone about trying to repair the original but I happened to find a perfectly suitable match in my stash so it makes an easy replacement. 

The brake I am convinced was not originally mounted to the bike. The bar clamp does not fit properly without a shim and the guide was crudely mounted to the underside of the fork, certainly not in tune with the quality of the rest of the build or other spoon brake assemblies I have worked on.


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 14, 2021)

Re assembled sans 5 lbs of dirt and poorly repaired stem.


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## cyclingday (Jan 14, 2021)

Outstanding!
This thread renews my faith in mankind.


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## dnc1 (Jan 14, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> Outstanding!
> This thread renews my faith in mankind.



And even for a total Schwinn illiterate it makes for fascinating reading.
Great find Jesse!


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## Blue Streak (Jan 14, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Unless the girls bike in the BMA has an earlier serial this is it. Although the bike in the BMA is identified as a '95 its actually at least a '96 and possibly a '97. It would be interesting to know if Schwinn started their serial number system with "1", "1000", or maybe "1001"? V/r Shawn




A 1896 World bicycle with serial number 399 was reported stolen in November 10, 1896 issue of the _The Kansas City (MO) Star _newspaper:


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## Ricker (Jan 14, 2021)

Jeff54 said:


> Yeah, I would not object to that thought except, I do not find or see those chain rings in that assembly shop photo, on any Schwinn anywhere TOC or post too 1910. Not in any advertising or photographic images, other than its self, have you?



The chainrings look retouched to me too- but I could definitely be wrong. This is a really great thread and find!


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 14, 2021)

Jesse McCauley said:


> I just called over there and spoke to Ryan Long who very helpful-
> He confirmed the women's "The World" in the BMA collection has the serial: "3051"



I will check my notes but that would put the BMA's lady's bike as being built in April or May of 1896.


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 14, 2021)

Jeff54 said:


> Yeah, I would not object to that thought except, I do not find or see those chain rings in that assembly shop photo, on any Schwinn anywhere TOC or post too 1910. Not in any advertising or photographic images, other than its self, have you?



In 1897 Schwinn was building bikes for Sears and others using different chain rings.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 14, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> In 1897 Schwinn was building bikes for Sears and others using different chain rings.



This certainly opens up the possibility that there are yet more of these than might be thought lurking in collections out there. Just curious Brant about serial number breakdown by months? Do you have years as well? I’m pretty sure my bike is a very late ‘98. V/r Shawn


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## locomotion (Jan 15, 2021)

Jesse McCauley said:


> Re assembled sans 5 lbs of dirt and poorly repaired stem.
> 
> View attachment 1338885
> 
> View attachment 1338886




you have to please tell me the secret of removing a cork handle from the handlebars without destroying it!
again, a very nice project
geeez, you find them all
MAx


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## Freqman1 (Jan 15, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> Here is description of 1896 World models:
> View attachment 1338432



Can you tell me the date of this article? Thanks, Shawn


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 15, 2021)

locomotion said:


> you have to please tell me the secret of removing a cork handle from the handlebars without destroying it!
> again, a very nice project
> geeez, you find them all
> MAx



Certainly an ongoing experiment - in this case I boiled water submerged the grip I wanted to try and remove. 
Regularly removing, drying, gripping, and doing my best shift it ever so slightly without crushing it. 
Dip, dry, repeat. 

It didn't come off perfectly but ultimately it looks good. 

I will also admit that I keep all my cork grip remnants and have often shaved pieces of cork down to deal with grip damage caused from removal or just life.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 15, 2021)

Looks to me like these "Stolen" ads would possibly be a good way to get an idea of the serial number ranges. According to what we've seen so far thanks to @Blue Streak. I say possibly because unless they identify the year of the bike it wouldn't be definitive. Based on what's been posted we know there were more than 5000 made in '96. One could assume they may have made more per year in '97 and '98 but I think there was a bike 'bust' in '99 which likely put a damper on production. Does anyone have yearly production data from the early years? V/r Shawn


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## Blue Streak (Jan 15, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Can you tell me the date of this article? Thanks, Shawn



Article is from December 19, 1895 issue of _The Bearings:





_


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## Blue Streak (Jan 15, 2021)

Shawn - I have found using period stolen references to begin piecing together rough production numbers a good place to start. I have been able to build a pretty accurate list of Tribune serial numbers and yearly production using this method. Most stolen references do not list a model year but the ones that do help lock in serial numbers that do not list the year. I also try to narrow down years by the date they are stolen or missing meaning one stolen in early to mid year 1896 would not be 1897 or later model. Comparing this type of information with actual existing bicycles will help validate the production volume and model year. I found references for Schwinn product volume for 1897 and 1898. Will post those soon. I think 1897 production was projected to be 15,000 bicycles. Jeff

Here are two more Schwinn references:

From June 30, 1897 issue of the_ Nevada State Journal (Reno)_




From September 25, 1897 issue of the _Omaha Daily Bee



_


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## Freqman1 (Jan 15, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> Shawn - I have found using period stolen references to begin piecing together rough production numbers a good place to start. I have been able to build a pretty accurate list of Tribune serial numbers and yearly production using this method. Most stolen references do not list a model year but the ones that do help lock in serial numbers that do not list the year. I also try to narrow down years by the date they are stolen or missing meaning one stolen in early to mid year 1896 would not be 1897 or later model. Comparing this type of information with actual existing bicycles will help validate the production volume and model year. I found references for Schwinn product volume for 1897 and 1898. Will post those soon. I think 1897 production was projected to be 15,000 bicycles. Jeff
> 
> Here are two more Schwinn references:
> 
> ...



Thanks Jeff! I believe the '97 number (15000) to be a bit optimistic given that the serial number on my '98 is 13678. I believe my bike to be a late '98 based on several factors. Considering there were more than 5000 made in '96 that would put the number at 20k + by the end of '97 which would mean the number on my bike would obviously be much higher. I look forward to what you come up with here and maybe with a little more sleuthing we can start piecing together the pre-1900 numbers. V/r Shawn


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 15, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Just curious Brant about serial number breakdown by months? Do you have years as well?



I am not sure if a breakdown exists by months or years, this is a question that should be asked of: Judith Crown or Glenn Coleman, authors of No Hands.
What is known:
-Schwinn's hiring E.C. Bode was a major coup for the firm. Bode was the sales arm of the fledging company and secured a significant number of pre-orders during October/November of 1895.  On individual trips, it was reported orders in excess of 1,000 and 1,450 units were secured.  Likely these number were exaggerated but regardless Schwinn needed to get wheels out the door.
-It was Schwinn's initial intention to start shipping product late October.  Delays in setting up the manufacturing plant prevented this from occurring.
-Based on first hand accounts from bicycle industry trade publication writers who visited the Schwinn plant in person, the company was ready to build bicycles by the third or fourth week in November.  Completed wheels were slated to start shipping in December of 1895.
-The first quarter of 1896 was extremely busy for Schwinn to fulfill the orders Bode secured in the fall of 1895.  It was reported on Saturday night, April 18th, 1896 that Schwinn had a special "Dutch Lunch" meal for its employees in celebration of the 3,000th bicycle being produced in a "specified time."

Jeff's research of the theft reports is extremely valuable information, especially when serial numbers and model years are mentioned.


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## corbettclassics (Jan 15, 2021)

There is a chance that the bike Jesse has is an actual "Racer" and not the "Light Roadster". I don't believe that brake is original and I don't think they came with the bike anyway.  I'm not familiar with the differences between the "Light Roadster" and the "Racer" but it seems that it could be a "Racer". It seems to me that someone might have flipped the bars upward and added a brake so they could ride it.  I've seen this on numerous original factory racers.

Side by side in the catalogue ( or the 1896 ads ) it seems they are the same drawing.  So what's the chance Jesse flips the bars upside down and the bike appears to be the "Racer" model all of a sudden.  Maybe it was the thickness of the tubing and the weight decided the difference! What's the description in the catalogue stating the differences between the two?

I do have a picture of Jay Eaton on his 1896 World by the way.  John Johnson also raced the 1896 World. ( Johnson went to Barnes for 1897 ).

Here's a couple of 1896 ads >











Flips the bars upside down and it looks identical to the bars on the Racer.









Just saying there is a chance ...."Racer".


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 15, 2021)

corbettclassics said:


> There is a chance that the bike Jesse has is an actual "Racer" and not the "Light Roadster". I don't believe that brake is original and I don't think they came with the bike anyway.  I'm not familiar with the differences between the "Light Roadster" and the "Racer" but it seems that it could be a "Racer". It seems to me that someone might have flipped the bars upward and added a brake so they could ride it.  I've seen this on numerous original factory racers.
> 
> Side by side in the catalogue ( or the 1896 ads ) it seems they are the same drawing.  So what's the chance Jesse flips the bars upside down and the bike appears to be the "Racer" model all of a sudden.  Maybe it was the thickness of the tubing and the weight decided the difference! What's the description in the catalogue stating the differences between the two?
> 
> I do have a picture of Jay Eaton on his 1896 World by the way.  John Johnson also raced the 1896 World. ( Johnson went to Barnes for 1897 ).



Certainly merits dropping the bars for a photo op for the sake of discussion anyway, thanks Bill! 
I was studying the discussion of the model differences, it talks about the gauge of the tubing, I'm wondering if I check the gauge of the tubing at the seat tube (only place I can think of where I could get a reading?) if that will tell me what I need to know? 

@cyclingday made the point either here or privately that the saddle may be the best indicator of the exact model, it has a number of interesting features including the seemingly original / proprietary clamp that could be a valuable piece of evidence. More photos to follow. 
Thank you everyone for the great group participation after this exciting find for the old bicycle community.


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 15, 2021)

Yes, it is all about the tubing:


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## Freqman1 (Jan 15, 2021)

My '98 at 'home' last year. V/r Shawn


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## Blue Streak (Jan 15, 2021)

From June 08, 1899 issue of _The Cycle Age and Trade Review_ comparing projected 1899 output of American Bicycle Company manufacturers compared to the independent makers outside the ABC.

These are projected production numbers for 1899 model year. The list offers a good scale comparison between all the companies in business at that time. Western Wheel Works is #1 at 135,000 and #2 is Pope at 75,000.


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## cr250mark (Jan 15, 2021)

This may be irrelevant the post , sorry Jesse !
I had a chance this summer to purchase this World but
It was Being sold as a package with 4 other Sweet Toc
Bicycles .
I had passed but later seen a few of these bicycles pop
Up on the Cabe for sale less This “Schwinn World”
This looks to possibly be aToc version where the serial
Numbers would be interesting to see
Maybe someone here has this bicycle to simply share the serial number
These are the only pictures I have.
GL
Mark


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## bricycle (Jan 15, 2021)

Keating Wheel possible output 90,000


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 15, 2021)

cr250mark said:


> This may be irrelevant the post , sorry Jesse !
> I had a chance this summer to purchase this World but
> It was Being sold as a package with 4 other Sweet Toc
> Bicycles .
> ...



That one went to California, I'll see if I can get him to pull the serial but as I recall it was a 98' or 9'?


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## cr250mark (Jan 15, 2021)

Jesse McCauley said:


> That one went to California, I'll see if I can get him to pull the serial but as I recall it was a 98' or 9'?




I thought it was a small “World” no pun intended !
Bikes originated From Mi.
Started out as a Nice collection to be Sold Off.
Thanks Jesse
By the way , man you started off with a killer post 
Ending up in some Outstanding historical info .
Love the theft records , jeff posted , Wowsa 
Nice post my man !!

mark


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## Blue Streak (Jan 15, 2021)

Here are couple more stolen World references:

World SN 10,585 stolen August 1897
World (Lady's) SN 10,797 stolen November 1898

July 16, 1897 issue of The LAW Bulletin:





August 6, 1897 issue of The LAW Bulletin:




November 25, 1898 issue of The LAW Bulletin:


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## Jeff54 (Jan 15, 2021)

Error see post below


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## Jeff54 (Jan 15, 2021)

I think we can say; We've found our boy '1916' 11 years later, right smack in the front, again. Larger assembly shop and well lit. For comparison See photos below:


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## cyclingday (Jan 15, 2021)

Triple plate fork crown, puts this one no earlier than 1898.
Jesse’s has the double plate crown, 1896/97.


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 16, 2021)

Did some work this morning trying to add period options and fill in the gaps where I had to. 
Figured it was time for a proper little photo shoot. 
I think it's time to drop the bars next!


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 16, 2021)

Work summary: 
- Replaced damaged "keyed" stem with a near identical match- still trying to find an advert to confirm ID but Indiana Novelty Handlebar is a good contender. 
- Removed incorrect spoon brake and bow pedals. 
- Cleaned frame and original hardware thoroughly.

Additions: I tried to keep the hardware I added as close to period appropriate catalog optional as I could. 
- Bridgeport No. 2 rat trap pedals 
- Theim's adjustable wire toe clips
- Dual layer laminate / finger joined rims I believe are Kundtz Bending Works rims with very close to appropriate looking large barrel hubs in the appropriate sizes. 
- Boston Woven Hose co. / VIM tires in "pebble tread" pattern - I believe this is the rare "floxine" color they patented and made quite popular.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 16, 2021)

Can you see any trace of original color? I assume dark maroon? V/r Shawn


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 16, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Can you see any trace of original color? I assume dark maroon? V/r Shawn



Really difficult to say with certainty. I will keep looking it over closely though and report back if I see anything that strikes me as original finish.


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## cyclingday (Jan 16, 2021)

Nice build, Jesse.
That old relic sure fell into the right hands.
It looks amazing, considering that a week ago, it was all covered in silt, and looked like it had been dug out of a tomb.


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## Oilit (Jan 16, 2021)

Jeff54 said:


> I think we can say; We've found our boy '1916' 11 years later, right smack in the front, again. Larger assembly shop and well lit. For comparison See photos below:
> 
> 
> View attachment 1339503
> ...



You're talking about the second man from the right in the top photo and the far left in the bottom? It looks like it could be the same guy, but I'd want a better photo to say for sure.


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 16, 2021)

Following the conversation with @corbettclassics I dropped the bars for a quick photo or two before the rain today just for the sake of conversation and visual stimulation. 
I neglected a few of the detail shots in the first round and forgot to tighten my banjo tensioners up but they are square now.


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## dnc1 (Jan 16, 2021)

Gorgeous!


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## 1817cent (Jan 16, 2021)

What a great thread!  Great info and very intertaining!


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## oldmtrcyc (Jan 16, 2021)

Maybe try a little Lacquer thinner on a paper towel on bottom side to see if you can see orig paint?!  It has worked for me.


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## alexander55 (Jan 16, 2021)

What a find.  What a project.  What an interesting discussion.  Congratulations.  Thanks all.  And...for what it's worth....I love it with those bars dropped!


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## corbettclassics (Jan 17, 2021)

*John Johnson on his 1896 World*


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 17, 2021)

@corbettclassics excellent!!!! 
That is the best "front on" perspective of a set of pedals on a ca. 96' World that I have seen yet, all the other images being side profiles the information I can gather is limited. 
Do those look close to Record pedals to you? Makes me second guess my pedal choice.


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## corbettclassics (Jan 17, 2021)

From left to right > *1896*

Jay Eaton on his "World" ... Eddie Bald on his Barnes "White Flyer" ... Tom Cooper on his "Monarch" ( a year later to be called the "Cooper Special" )


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## corbettclassics (Jan 17, 2021)

Here's another (very rare ) image of Eaton with his 1896 "World" from one of my 1890's magazines called "Metropolitan"


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 17, 2021)

corbettclassics said:


> Here's another (very rare ) image of Eaton with his 1896 "World" from one of my 1890's magazines called "Metropolitan"
> 
> View attachment 1340475



Does his jersey patch say "World Flyer?"


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## cyclingday (Jan 17, 2021)

Jesse McCauley said:


> @corbettclassics excellent!!!!
> That is the best "front on" perspective of a set of pedals on a ca. 96' World that I have seen yet, all the other images being side profiles the information I can gather is limited.
> Do those look close to Record pedals to you? Makes me second guess my pedal choice.



Don’t forget, that the different models had different pedal specs.
The Racer didn’t use the same pedals as the Model 1 Roadster.


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## corbettclassics (Jan 17, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Does his jersey patch say "World Flyer?"



Hi Brandt - yes it appears that it does say "World Flyer"


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 17, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> Don’t forget, that the different models had different pedal specs.
> The Racer didn’t use the same pedals as the Model 1 Roadster.



Great point!  Are these pedals called out in any of the catalogs Marty?  I had a hard time finding any mention of pedals when I was researching the fit out for my tandem.


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## cyclingday (Jan 17, 2021)

I haven’t seen any call outs specifically.
None of the component pages in the catalogs from 96,97,98 show the pedals.
The 98 catalog just says, “Rat Trap or Rubber” for the Standard model 22 Roadster.
The 96 catalog just specified that the Light Roadster and the Racer got lighter weight pedals, but it doesn’t say what brand or models they were.


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## ABC Services (Jan 17, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Great point!  Are these pedals called out in any of the catalogs Marty?  I had a hard time finding any mention of pedals when I was researching the fit out for my tandem.



A model #12  double diamond tandem, Record pedals.  #14 combination tandem, rubber pedals.


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## corbettclassics (Jan 17, 2021)

This was always one of my favorite photos of the "World Racer".


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 17, 2021)

Flair:


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## cyclingday (Jan 17, 2021)

NIce!


I have similar button that I suspect, is a cuff link.
Is yours a cuff link or a pin back button?




These other trinkets are The World, key/watch fobs.


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Jan 17, 2021)

Fascinating find & discussion! Can't wait to see what else is revealed with this beauty!


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## ABC Services (Jan 17, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> NIce!View attachment 1340509
> I have similar button that I suspect, is a cuff link.
> Is yours a cuff link or a pin back button?
> 
> ...




Those are awesome, I was wondering if any were out there.


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## cyclingday (Jan 18, 2021)

I was going through the images from the 1896 catalog last night, and I fixated on this beast.
I can’t even imagine what that was like to captain this monster up to speed.
You would definitely need some big guns to control the handlebar, until everybody settled in to a rhythm. 



The model-17 was top of the line for, The World, in 1896.



$1,000 dollars in 1896 had the equivalent buying power of $27,683.94 in today’s, 2021 US Dollars.

Wow!
How many of these were built, and is there an existing example in any of the museums?
Really interesting looking bike, to say the least.


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## cyclingday (Jan 18, 2021)

And some of the guys who raced that big machine.













We are the Champions,
of, The World!


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## Freqman1 (Jan 18, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> And some of the guys who raced that big machine.View attachment 1341406
> View attachment 1341407
> View attachment 1341408
> View attachment 1341409
> ...



Marty wouldn’t this be a ‘97 catalog? V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday (Jan 18, 2021)

I’m not sure, if that catalog was for the combined years of 96/97.
Some portions of it read as though it’s for the 96 model year, and some portions read as though it’s for 97.
I think it was produced in 96, and the mentions of 97 were previews.


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 18, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> I was going through the images from the 1896 catalog last night, and I fixated on this beast.
> I can’t even imagine what that was like to captain this monster up to speed.
> You would definitely need some big guns to control the handlebar, until everybody settled in to a rhythm.
> View attachment 1341399
> ...



I know of one privately owned quint that has a nearly identical frame style to this illustration but I have yet to find a model illustrated from this era with this style frame and fork showing a non-"camel back" position stoker. The bike I have seen has a traditionally positioned stoker but otherwise the bike is the same.


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## dnc1 (Jan 18, 2021)

And presumably that rear most stokers position is to to allow the following racer to tuck in close and enjoy the aerodynamic advantage, as when following the upright rear rider of a pacing motorcycle. 
Can you imagine the effort involved in following this over even a short sprint distance?
Phenomenal!


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 18, 2021)

cyclingday said:


> I have similar button that I suspect, is a cuff link.
> Is yours a cuff link or a pin back button?



Yes, mine is the same Marty.  Pairs could be worn as cuff links or as collar buttons (a 19th trend that I hear is making a come back).  Or singles as lapel buttons.  Your watch fobs are spectacular!


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 18, 2021)

After some digging in my saddle stash I found a weathered top that looks very close to the profile that would have been on 'The World' - 
I used a few small pieces of sinew thread to lightly attach it for the effect of the real thing. 
@corbettclassics requested a photo more like the catalog image without the incline on my street so I walked it to a couple of my favorite neighborhood bicycle photographing walls.


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## cyclingday (Jan 18, 2021)

I love it!
Especially, that last image.
Shades of Yore.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 29, 2021)

Jesse McCauley said:


> @corbettclassics excellent!!!!
> That is the best "front on" perspective of a set of pedals on a ca. 96' World that I have seen yet, all the other images being side profiles the information I can gather is limited.
> Do those look close to Record pedals to you? Makes me second guess my pedal choice.



I would think a racer may have different pedals than a roadster. Were you able to determine the gauge of the tube? Like you said earlier if you could identify the seat you may have a better idea what model. V/r Shawn


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