# this TOC Lady is naked .... Please I.D.



## locomotion (Nov 15, 2016)

yes, yet another ..... TOC frame/fork/crank I.D.
I cannot determine what this frame could be ... need help
bike had no seat, bars, wheels, and an horrible, very thick paint brush paint job
so I blasted the frame with glass beads, and removed the grease from the crank and sprocket, to see what I was up against
the TOC engineering of this crank/sprocket is pretty awesome
might just restore the parts I have as a frame/fork/crank TOC wall hanger
but putting a badge on it would be great


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## locomotion (Nov 16, 2016)

reading to different post that just popped-up, I think I have IDed my bike as possibly
1893-1898 National

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/early-1900s-national-cycle-manufacturing-bicycle.98179/
http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/toc-teens-national-cycle-i-d.100286/

what do you think?


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## Rambler (Nov 16, 2016)

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/toc-teens-national-cycle-i-d.100286/#post-649033


locomotion said:


> not to highjack the tread sorry Jesse, but Rambler, could you jump to my tread after you are done here?
> 
> I think you might just have IDed my ladies bike
> 
> ...




Yes Locomotion. This frame and crank is a 1897 or 1898 National. From reading your above post sadly it sounds that any specific identifying components such as chain guard or skirt guard are missing which makes exact year dating 1897 or 1898 difficult. I will look through the National catalogs this evening and post what my findings are for your bike. However I can confidently say based on the crank your bike is not earlier than 1897 and based on the frame not later than 1898.


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## locomotion (Nov 16, 2016)

thanks Rambler
narrowing it to 1897-1898 is already good enough for me
I had no hopes for this bike, the paint was horrible, had no wheels, no fenders, no chain guard
it had a stem and luckly the crank/sprocket and most of the specific hardware for this bike
but I do have a set of wheels and a set of spare wood fenders and a wood chain guard, so if I can find a head badge I will get this one done pretty quick
I look forward in reading you later on, can't wait to see catalogue pictures and learning more info on it


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## locomotion (Nov 16, 2016)

with the number of "8" in the serial numbers, how about a 1898?


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## Rambler (Nov 16, 2016)

Locomotion,

I'm not sure about your theory of 8 indicating 1898 though I suppose it is possible. Who knows if they used that numbering strategy in early years? However that numbering strategy does not seem to hold true for later years of Nationals which appear to be purely sequential because the first digit is not consistent with a particular year as will be explained in more detail in Jesse's National post.  Even though I would not entirely rule out your theory, your bike does have one unique characteristic which make me believe it is 1897 rather than 1898. That unique characteristic is how the left crank arm is held by a cotter rather than a nut as in later years. This older design cotter left arm combined with the new removable sprocket was unique because it only appeared in 1897. After 1897 the left crank arm was held by a single spanner nut.

You are correct to assume 8488 is your serial number because the @-1508 is something I have not seen before and not consistent with earlier or later nationals. I honestly do not know what @-1508 on your frame may represent.  8488 is most certainly the serial number because that number sequentially makes sense based on earlier and later National serial numbers.

Because you are missing all the accessories I am unable to determine if your bike is a model "I" or "L" so I have posted both below. It is up to you to determine as best you can by reading the descriptions associated with each which your frame was intended to be.

Unfortunately it appears that someone has ground off the adjusting teeth on the frame rear wheel dropouts. Though that does free you up from having to locate the special spiral axle adjusting washers.

Tyson


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## locomotion (Nov 16, 2016)

thank you
ohh that rear fender and lacing will be difficult to replicate
and unfortunately, the bike didn't offer any clues as to the original color in the regular paint secret locations
nor was there any nickel left under it


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## locomotion (Nov 17, 2016)

I would like to do something different , instead of black on this one
I wonder if anyone else has a light blue or green National?


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## locomotion (Nov 17, 2016)

I just searched the whole World Wide Web, and, is it just me or is this brand just damn rare?
there are just so few original examples of this brand!!!


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## Rambler (Nov 17, 2016)

Locomotion,

You are correct, Nationals are a lot more rare than say a Columbia or G & J Rambler but not the most rare by any means either with National Cycle producing around 80,000 bicycles between the years of production 1893-1916.

Here are a few examples of National colors to choose from, Black (which you said you did not want to do), Light Blue, Dark Blue, and the Green is actually another Michigan bike, a Clipper from Grand Rapids MI. I present it as an accurate example of Green because this particular Clipper is an 1897 Model D woman's bike, same year as your Woman's 1897 National Model I or L. Besides that fact, this color green is pretty common for that time period as a bicycle color so no one could really say you were wrong for painting your National this color green. Especially since Dark Green with Gold Stripes is listed as an available color for the 1897 National Model I though not the L.

Lastly is a photo of an 1896 National Model G which is very similar to your Model I or L aside from being one year earlier than your Woman's National. May give you some idea what your bike should look like besides just the catalog illustrations.



 
*National Cycle - Black, Light Blue, Dark Blue*
NOTE: For better picture of the Light Blue refer to this CABE forum thread: http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/ea...anufacturing-bicycle.98179/page-2#post-639518

*1897 Clipper, Grand Rapids, MI - Green*



*
1896 National Model G - Bay City, MI*


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## locomotion (Nov 17, 2016)

very nice thanks
green it will be for sure, I have plenty of black bikes
glad to actually see what the actual deal is with that rear fender, will not be an easy reproduction!!!


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