# Frame ID?



## Biss-Ness (Dec 1, 2015)

I recently purchased this frame from another member but I am not sure it's even a Schwinn frame. Any thoughts on what it could be? Thanks


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## Biss-Ness (Dec 1, 2015)




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## Biss-Ness (Dec 1, 2015)

If it was brazed I would swear it's a b6 frame....


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## GTs58 (Dec 1, 2015)

I say it is a Schwinn frame. The serial comes up the first of Jan, 1952 and no other maker used a stamped rear dropout like that. Why do you say it's not brazed? Chain guard mount on the BB may have been replaced at some point.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 1, 2015)

GTs58 said:


> I say it is a Schwinn frame. The serial comes up the first of Jan, 1954 and no other maker used a stamped rear dropout like that. Why do you say it's not brazed? Chain guard mount on the BB may have been replaced at some point.



54 serial on the bb? Haha.. small type face A with 5 digits is 1946

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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 1, 2015)

Imo. ... something is fishy with welds and especially the connection points on the head tube. What's up with the dual serial number? The front mount for the chain guard is way wrong...  and if replaced. ..
how would it have broke off? and wouldn't it have still been attached to the guard after it had? So wouldn't you just use the piece that broke originally?... 

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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 1, 2015)

GTs58 said:


> I say it is a Schwinn frame. The serial comes up the first of Jan, 1954 and no other maker used a stamped rear dropout like that. Why do you say it's not brazed? Chain guard mount on the BB may have been replaced at some point.



This is not a schwinn frame.... too much wrong.... I say reissue or 80s something.?... Axxxxx serial number on BB.?..yet frame takes big schwinn badge?... the tips of the drop outs are too squared off and narrow... and the serial is all squiggly. .. and the welds look like crap.... 

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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 1, 2015)

The gas holes in mine are usually not nice little drilled holes either. .. actually the whole part where the electroforge took place is honestly really clean!. usually Slag is hanging everywhere on that inside joint.... here is the drop out... it looks off.. especially the bottom .. and honesty in the pic, that metal looks too thick to me... but It may juat be the pic.



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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 1, 2015)

Down tube has a weird bend in it.



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## GTs58 (Dec 1, 2015)

My bad, type error. Meant 52,  which some 52's still had the numbers on the BB. So that's a 46 then. As far as the guard mount, I purchased a 1961 frame with a busted off guard tab on the bottom bracket. And it wasn't on the guard when I purchased the bike from the original owner. They were just brazed on flat stock until 1962. Cleaning up the slag before that frame was primed would be no big deal. People are still doing it today before they do a repaint. Lots of little idiosyncrasies on that frame and if it's a fake, someone sure spent a lot of wasted time doing it. I'd strip it down and take a closer look at the welds etc. I've seen crappy joints on other Schwinn frames so I didn't even consider that. And if it's a Whizzer frame would they be somewhat different than the run of the mill frames? Stripping it down may also show if the frame joints have been repaired or beefed up, like the cantilever/down tube welds. I'm still thinking that's a Schwinn frame that had some personal loving by someone.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 1, 2015)

GTs58 said:


> My bad, type error. Meant 52,  which some 52's still had the numbers on the BB. So that's a 46 then. As far as the guard mount, I purchased a 1961 frame with a busted off guard tab on the bottom bracket. And it wasn't on the guard when I purchased the bike from the original owner. They were just brazed on flat stock until 1962. Cleaning up the slag before that frame was primed would be no big deal. People are still doing it today before they do a repaint. Lots of little idiosyncrasies on that frame and if it's a fake, someone sure spent a lot of wasted time doing it. I'd strip it down and take a closer look at the welds etc. I've seen crappy joints on other Schwinn frames so I didn't even consider that. And if it's a Whizzer frame would they be somewhat different than the run of the mill frames? Stripping it down may also show if the frame joints have been repaired or beefed up, like the cantilever/down tube welds. I'm still thinking that's a Schwinn frame that had some personal loving by someone.



I don't remember these tabs being held on like this to the kickstand tube?... I thought they had 3 little marks on em from the spot weld right where they start to wrap around ....




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## GTs58 (Dec 1, 2015)

I did notice that fender mounting tab and I'm looking at another one of the idiosyncrasies. Looking inside the BB shell, it appears the tube seam is in the front by the downtube, where all the ones I've seen are at the bottom of the BB.  Hmmm, was it Maple Island that was selling aftermarket cantilever frames years ago?


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 1, 2015)

GTs58 said:


> I did notice that fender mounting tab and I'm looking at another one of the idiosyncrasies. Looking inside the BB shell, it appears the tube seam is in the front by the downtube, where all the ones I've seen are at the bottom of the BB.  Hmmm, was it Maple Island that was selling aftermarket cantilever frames years ago?



Yeah...the missing tube seam Slag line on the bottom. ...ehhhhh

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## GTs58 (Dec 1, 2015)

Just did a quick search to see if I could find a Maple Island imitation Schwinn cantilever frame in their old catalogs. No luck, but I remember seeing them quite a few years ago.


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## Biss-Ness (Dec 2, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> 54 serial on the bb? Haha.. small type face A with 5 digits is 1946
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




 In 51 they started over with A#####. Looks to be a December 1951 or BB stamped January 1952...
12/15 to 12/22 ------- A65381 ------------------- A87593
Date ------------- Serial #`s From ----------------- To 
01/01 to 01/07 ------- A87594 ------------------ A92478


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## Biss-Ness (Dec 2, 2015)

It also has the delux b6 locking fork tab in the head tube....


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## Jeff54 (Dec 2, 2015)

GTs58 said:


> I did notice that fender mounting tab and I'm looking at another one of the idiosyncrasies. Looking inside the BB shell, it appears the tube seam is in the front by the downtube, where all the ones I've seen are at the bottom of the BB.  Hmmm, was it Maple Island that was selling aftermarket cantilever frames years ago?




Indeed, the BB seam is extra strange.

Can be seen at the lower left side of the photo posted. 

If standing up and front  is right side then, the Bottom bracket seam on this is somewhere near 2:30 O'clock. Whereas normally it's at 5:00. All that strange welding was also what I thought curious whenever it was FS last week.


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## bricycle (Dec 2, 2015)

so it's not an S2 or WZ frame? Just a thought... I really don't know Schwinn's.


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## rustjunkie (Dec 2, 2015)

Wouldn't the lack of "electro forging" construction rule this out as a post WWII-1970s Schwinn frame right off the bat?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Biss-Ness said:


> It also has the delux b6 locking fork tab in the head tube....



They all have that...

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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Biss-Ness said:


> In 51 they started over with A#####. Looks to be a December 1951 or BB stamped January 1952...
> 12/15 to 12/22 ------- A65381 ------------------- A87593
> Date ------------- Serial #`s From ----------------- To
> 01/01 to 01/07 ------- A87594 ------------------ A92478



The type face for those is bigger.... small type face A is 1946....

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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Jeff54 said:


> Indeed, the BB seam is extra strange.
> 
> Can be seen at the lower left side of the photo posted.
> 
> If standing up and front  is right side then, the Bottom bracket seam on this is somewhere near 2:30 O'clock. Whereas normally it's at 5:00. All that strange welding was also what I thought curious whenever it was FS last week.



Sure looks all nice n smooth inside that BB... ... missing the slight  indent from the press where the tubes meets up to the bb.... not schwinn fer sure

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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Biss-Ness said:


> If it was brazed I would swear it's a b6 frame....



Can you post another interior shot of the steer tube? One that shows the tube Junction. That may clear this up fast. Thanks

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## Jeff54 (Dec 2, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Sure looks all nice n smooth inside that BB... ...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




So, you're saying that, you do not see the straight line inside of the BB. It's just about under the fender bracket. That's a seam line.

And from all of the funky stuff going on on this frame, too much, from poorly brazed welding, and lack of layering, building it up then grinding and smoothing, wow especially, crappy joints at the head post??  odd features like the drilled hole in rear stays, odd fender bracket position and the way it's welded. 

On one hand ya could say it's a hangover Monday frame, brazier, grinder and inspector still hung over, lol, but on the other, there's  too many other oddities to make the case. unless, the entire frame production crew was drunk. lol

If it was mine, I'd just braze more onto those joints, then grind em down the way it should be, Or, did Schwinn use lead to fill and smooth those joints which somebody, accidently dissolved inside of an acid tank? regardless, forever mark it as  it a mystery, engraved into the minds of whoever owns it; from here to eternity. .


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Jeff54 said:


> So, you're saying that, you do not see the straight line inside of the BB. It's just about under the fender bracket. That's a seam line.
> 
> And from all of the funky stuff going on on this frame, too much, from poorly brazed welding, and lack of laying, building it up then grinding and smoothing, odd features like the drilled hole in rear stays, odd fender bracket position and the way it's welded.
> 
> ...



I see it.... just doesn't make any sense to be in that location considering how schwinn made these as stamped plates first as you know, the post war seam should be all relatively in the same spot. Schwinn stamped these with the protrusions for the frame tubes to connect to before they rolled them. ... 

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## dougfisk (Dec 2, 2015)

Jeff54 said:


> Indeed, the BB seam is extra strange.
> 
> Can be seen at the lower left side of the photo posted.
> 
> If standing up and front  is right side then, the Bottom bracket seam on this is somewhere near 2:30 O'clock. Whereas normally it's at 5:00...





The seam you see inside this BB is from the *initial manufacture of the round tubing that was later cut to length* and used in the construct of this frame.  Of course, that is *not *how Schwinn built up the bottom bracket of the electroforged frames...


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

My honest opinion is that it's a reissue frame of sorts, made for a whizzer or phantom by someone when whizzers and phantoms were all the rage... The crimp clearance area is cracked on the stay, that would have never left the  factory like that. I'd like to see inside the headtube looking at the top bar connection when you have a minute. This is just my opinion. 

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## dougfisk (Dec 2, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> My honest opinion is that it's a reissue frame of sorts, made for a whizzer, by someone when whizzers were all the rage...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




+1

I never new that these were knocked off - but Rustjunkie and OBI are right... *NOT* Schwinn OEM Electroforged technique.


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## rustjunkie (Dec 2, 2015)

So no one read post 19 I guess. 
I'll bet anyone a case of Mexican Cokes that this is not Schwinn....and it's not old.
It sure looks welded not brazed, and no electro-forgings.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 2, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> So no one read post 19 I guess.
> I'll bet anyone a case of Mexican Cokes that this is not Schwinn....and it's not old.
> It sure looks welded not brazed, and no electro-forgings.





Actually I knoticed this last week, (below)

The seat post has a pile from a stick just about @ 12:00. It looks like it may be a pile of steel left from a modern weld. The thin piled lines look like it may be steel as well, mig welding.  Yet, the rear bars, appear to be smother, braising. Can't see around that seat post but it may be smother and the pile would just be where the worker stopped. 

So, I'd have to see the color of the glue (Metal) used, to be sure.


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## Biss-Ness (Dec 2, 2015)

I'll take some more photos tonight. I still think is strange to have the head tube screw spacing, fork lock bumper ,13/16 seat tube and same seat stay bends as a Schwinn .... And not be a Schwinn . Seems like way too much work to build a cantilever frame from scratch just to add a motor. I would like to think its a New Year's Day hungover prototype welded b6 super rare whizzer frame. lol


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Found this on ebay... http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=121826915544&alt=web 






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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Biss-Ness said:


> I'll take some more photos tonight. I still think is strange to have the head tube screw spacing, fork lock bumper ,13/16 seat tube and same seat stay bends as a Schwinn .... And not be a Schwinn . Seems like way too much work to build a cantilever frame from scratch just to add a motor. I would like to think its a New Year's Day hungover prototype welded b6 super rare whizzer frame. lol



Actually it makes perfect sense to have all those things honestly. Then you can bolt on genuine schwinn stuff.... if you made a frame that nothing fit on, especially schwinn stuff since you made a schwinn frame, then who would buy it? Imho

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## Jeff54 (Dec 2, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Found this on ebay... http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=121826915544&alt=web




That there is a presto, bingo, end of story. 

From the serial number font used, to the crappy wields, except topic frame has a pressed in rear stay, prob offered by the repop maker, that's it! 

A Reop, "SCHWINN PHANTOM B6 AUTOCYCLE STYLE 26" CANTILEVER FRAME", W/WHIZZER STAY DENT, new replica, (fake).


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## Biss-Ness (Dec 2, 2015)




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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Yep... not schwinn... 



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## bairdco (Dec 2, 2015)

Why would anyone repop a schwinn cantilever frame? I mean, there's only, what, 100 million old schwinns,  and a coupla billion junky (er) cantilever knock offs. 

Seems to me it would cost more in materials, design and labor to build one than to just buy ten of them off craigslist.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

bairdco said:


> Why would anyone repop a schwinn cantilever frame? I mean, there's only, what, 100 million old schwinns,  and a coupla billion junky (er) cantilever knock offs.
> 
> Seems to me it would cost more in materials, design and labor to build one than to just buy ten of them off craigslist.



I call it the "I need a Phantom and i have money but I really don't know what real phantom parts look like so I buy what I'm told" equation from back in the day!.... I wonder how many of these got restored into phantoms lol...  
I had a repop 1957 frame once....figure that out!?.. 

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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Make it just different enough as to not get a patent infringement lawsuit going.... sorta like the first gen repop straight bar tanks from maple island or whatever the place is called. .... sorta kinda prewar inner features but small postwar button hole along with some other things...... if you have had one you know what I mean... funky 

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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

bairdco said:


> Why would anyone repop a schwinn cantilever frame? I mean, there's only, what, 100 million old schwinns,  and a coupla billion junky (er) cantilever knock offs.
> 
> Seems to me it would cost more in materials, design and labor to build one than to just buy ten of them off craigslist.



And honestly, when this was made, it was probably before craigslist and the Internet as we know it today... probably before ebay... unfamiliar with bike guy sees frame hanging on wall...someone says phantom... money in wallet disappears. .... end of story... 

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## CeeBee (Dec 2, 2015)

It is interesting that the serial number on this frame is so close to the serial number in the E-Bay sale. The "wrong" serial number on the Biss-Ness frame is just two digits off of the E Bay frame.....


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## GTs58 (Dec 2, 2015)

ceebee said:


> it is interesting that the serial number on this frame is so close to the serial number in the e-bay sale. The "wrong" serial number on the biss-ness frame is just two digits off of the e bay frame.....





*Mystery Solved! ​*
Biss-ness's frame is a 1995 or so *-->* Schwinn *<--* frame, left over repop Phantom frame or a Cruiser frame. Same details exactly as the Repop Phantom and that Schwinn frame on ebay including the rear fender mount and BB chainguard mount. 

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=121827935752


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## Biss-Ness (Dec 2, 2015)

CeeBee said:


> It is interesting that the serial number on this frame is so close to the serial number in the E-Bay sale. The "wrong" serial number on the Biss-Ness frame is just two digits off of the E Bay frame.....




they probably made three and decided they were spending more in materials and time than what its worth... I guess now I can say " its one of three known to exist"


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

GTs58 said:


> *Mystery Solved! ​*
> Biss-ness's frame is a 1995 or so *-->* Schwinn *<--* frame, left over repop Phantom frame or a Cruiser frame. Same details exactly as the Repop Phantom and that Schwinn frame on ebay including the rear fender mount and BB chainguard mount.
> 
> http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=121827935752



Not quite. ...Notice the bb on the painted  phantom frame... has the ridge...... the one you posted is from the frame i found on ebay....also look inside the headtube on the painted phantom frame . ...you can clearly see the hole that leads into the top tube like the original ones had. His frame is just welded to the steering tube with a tiny gas hole...







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## Jeff54 (Dec 2, 2015)

GTs58 said:


> *Mystery Solved! ​*
> Biss-ness's frame is a 1995 or so *-->* Schwinn *<--* frame, left over repop Phantom frame or a Cruiser frame. Same details exactly as the Repop Phantom and that Schwinn frame on ebay including the rear fender mount and BB chainguard mount.




Nope, the 1995 phantom frame is not near as cheaply made as the topic, and it includes a specially formed, fake seam  next to the serial numbers in the same place old Schwinn made em, and unmistakably,  embossed centennial marking ..  . It's a smooth frame, no way mistaking it for that:


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## GTs58 (Dec 2, 2015)

Okay, so it's a fricken Schwinn Cruiser frame build around 1995 till ???


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Here is a pic of the centennial non anniversary black phantom frame ... ...



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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Now I'm confused. ... cause I found a pic of a complete 95 phantom that has a different guard tab... like a normal tab...wtf...

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## Jeff54 (Dec 2, 2015)

GTs58 said:


> Okay, so it's a fricken Schwinn Cruiser frame build around 1995 till ???





U mean 1 of these?






*Maybe, might be a Pacific Cycles wally world frame too, but that's why they're junk eh. *


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## Biss-Ness (Dec 2, 2015)

Jeff54 said:


> U mean 1 of these?
> 
> View attachment 255139
> 
> ...




That seat post is not 13/16


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Dec 2, 2015)

Jeff54 said:


> U mean 1 of these?
> 
> View attachment 255139
> 
> ...



Sure looks like it... 

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## Jeff54 (Dec 2, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Now I'm confused. ... cause I found a pic of a complete 95 phantom that has a different guard tab... like a normal tab...wtf...Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




Yeah, U made me look, and dang the 1995 phantom guard bracket welding is crappy looking. And unlike early models It's reverse verses what Schwinn did on my 63, with that extra angle,  and 1955 phantom is the same as 48 and 53, there's no right angle on it, just a straight piece welded to the BB.


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## mrg (Dec 2, 2015)

I had a mid to late 80,s Hungarian built Schwinn that was similar and had #'s on BB sideways and had some odd Murry built ,SchMurry.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 3, 2015)

And yet the topic bike is not this either. Although, it's not an 'none anniversary' and it is also not a black phantom, nor 'phantom' they're "Cruisers" Made around 1995, still being made today too. and as the label on the picture you've provided  says "100 Years,,  Anniversary Edition" is not a Phantom it's a Deluxe.  The Black Phantom and a few late releases of the Centennial Phantom  Frame up too 1997-8 or so,   "Schwinn Cruiser Deluxe " (7 speed Nexus) are Centennial frames. 

What's worse though, that Guard bracket  dos not have a right angle welded to frame. Hence, topic bike is not of these too. [grin]

Incidentally, I've a 2003 PC Schwinn 4 and its bracket is like that in the anniversary frame photo (below), which also happens to be the same as made in 40-50's. 

Maybe it's a WHIZZER NE5 Taiwan frame: http://www.woodstockwhizzerworks.com/Whizzer_NE5_Classic.htm









Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> Here is a pic of the centennial non anniversary black phantom frame ... ...View attachment 255140
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Biss-Ness (Dec 3, 2015)

[/QUOTE]

Its not a NE5 frame because it does not have the mounting bracket for the starter switch, or CDI mount or tabs for the gas tank.


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