# Possible Huffman tribute bike…



## Guinness (Jul 27, 2021)

I recently acquired what appears to be a 1944-dated Huffman Western Flyer.  The forks are stamped 114.  The frame is stamped H 210563.  With the addition of some parts and paint, I’m thinking it could pass muster as a tribute bike.  What do you guys think?

-Guinness


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jul 27, 2021)

tribute to what?


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## altapat (Jul 27, 2021)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> tribute to what?



Military tribute bike , I guess.


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## Guinness (Jul 27, 2021)

Yeah, exactly.  A military tribute bike.  Am I way off base here to think that the bike I've acquired, being dated from '44, was essentially made-up of parts that were effectively surplus as the construction of Government contract bikes was winding down; using up old stock before manufacturing new?  Were I to go the route of adding the proper truss rods, pedals, saddle, handlebars, etc., could I end-up with something that would "pass muster" at an air show/living history event, or would it be akin to the old saying about putting a bow tie on a pig?


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## blackcat (Jul 27, 2021)

Hello;
Yes, it has a perfect look to make it a early 1942 Huffman tribute bike.
Regards;
Serge


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## Mountain Trail Andy (Jul 27, 2021)

Guinness said:


> Yeah, exactly.  A military tribute bike.  Am I way off base here to think that the bike I've acquired, being dated from '44, was essentially made-up of parts that were effectively surplus as the construction of Government contract bikes was winding down; using up old stock before manufacturing new?  Were I to go the route of adding the proper truss rods, pedals, saddle, handlebars, etc., could I end-up with something that would "pass muster" at an air show/living history event, or would it be akin to the old saying about putting a bow tie on a pig?




If it were mine I would build a military tribute bike....😀😀......They look great in Olive Drab.


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## Balloonoob (Jul 27, 2021)

Call me crazy.... But that red paint might shine up kinda nicely. There's still pins on the fenders. The seats gotta go.... But you can find one from that era pretty affordably. She's one sexy pig.


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## altapat (Jul 27, 2021)

Cool! That’s a perfect one for your project.  Some of the parts like handlebars and stem are available in eBay. Scott ( cabe owner) sells the bars Welcome to the club of military bike fanatics!


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## New Mexico Brant (Jul 27, 2021)

While your fork is Nov. 1944 the frame was manufactured later in 1945 as evidenced by the seat mast clamp.  I agree with @Balloonoob, this would clean up great.  Although not super valuable it is a rare example being an early post war civilian balloon tire Huffman production model.


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## JimScott (Jul 27, 2021)

Leave it alone and enjoy it


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## HUFFMANBILL (Jul 28, 2021)

This is a WWII bicycle, which was manufactured after many of the War Production Board ( WPB ) / Office of Price Administration ( OPA ) wartime bicycle production restrictions had been lifted in Sept., 1944.  I will not list those wartime restrictions or those which were lifted at this time.  However,  as a civilian wartime bicycle it's history as well as it's structure should without question be preserved as such.  I would not change this bike in the attempt to turn it into something that it was never intended to be.  Nuff said !

Regards,
Bill


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## Guinness (Jul 29, 2021)

Okay...you raise an interesting point.  Let's say I opt to leave it 'as is'.  What would this bike have looked like when it rolled off the assembly line?  Obviously the paint would have been pristine - looks like it was originally a dark red with white trim and pinstripes.  The seat is clearly not original to the bike.  Being an absolute beginner in this realm, what saddle would be appropriate?  Did the bike in its original configuration have truss rods?  While the forks that came with the bike are dated '44, the frame itself is apparently of a later manufacture based on one of the posts above.  Again, with the addition of accurate/authentic/proper parts that would have originally been part of this bike, would you (collectively) leave it as-is, or would you consider a restoration paint job, etc. in an effort to present an example of what it was?  Does anyone have images, or links to advertisement of the period that might show a Huffman Western Flyer from this timeframe?  Any help/guidance is greatly appreciated.

-Guinness


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## tryder (Jul 29, 2021)

Guinness said:


> Okay...you raise an interesting point.  Let's say I opt to leave it 'as is'.  What would this bike have looked like when it rolled off the assembly line?  Obviously the paint would have been pristine - looks like it was originally a dark red with white trim and pinstripes.  The seat is clearly not original to the bike.  Being an absolute beginner in this realm, what saddle would be appropriate?  Did the bike in its original configuration have truss rods?  While the forks that came with the bike are dated '44, the frame itself is apparently of a later manufacture based on one of the posts above.  Again, with the addition of accurate/authentic/proper parts that would have originally been part of this bike, would you (collectively) leave it as-is, or would you consider a restoration paint job, etc. in an effort to present an example of what it was?  Does anyone have images, or links to advertisement of the period that might show a Huffman Western Flyer from this timeframe?  Any help/guidance is greatly appreciated.
> 
> -Guinness



Check out this thread...
Thread 'Prewar War Time Columbia 26" mens balloon bike' https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/prewar-war-time-columbia-26-mens-balloon-bike.178877/

Very cool bike!


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## Balloonoob (Jul 29, 2021)

I would not paint this bike. I personally wouldn't worry about getting the absolute correct seat for the bike.... Just something old that looks the part better. It's hard to say what it may have had on it when it was sold at a western auto store. I sure like the look of this firestone badged Huffman bike. Listed as a OG paint 1945/46 Huffman wartime civilian $725 SOLD. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/mlc-bikes-that-can-be-available-for-free-delivery.150497/


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## New Mexico Brant (Jul 29, 2021)

As many have stated, the bike appears to be mostly original with the exception of the saddle.  You can clean it lightly and put a high grade wax on it/change the saddle and call it a day.  Getting the bike professionally repainted will cost more than the bike is worth.  Doing an amateur repaint will devalue the bike in my opinion.


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## HUFFMANBILL (Jul 29, 2021)

Guinness,

You must understand that at this time, late WWII Fall of 1944 through 1945, the parts that were allowed on bicycles were changing.  Parts that were blacked- out between approx. April 1942 through August 1944 were now being chromed again. Parts that would have been prohibited during that same period such as chain guards, fender lights and kickstands were again being manufactured.  Bicycle weight limits were being lifted to allow for the reintroduction of balloon tire models.  To make things more confusing there would still have been a sizable quantity of black finished parts in the stock of certain bicycle producers and their suppliers such as Columbia and Huffman, both which were permitted to manufacture military and civilian bikes throughout the war.  That is why, on some of the bicycles manufactured after Sept., 1944 and in some cases into 1946 you can see a mix of leftover blackout parts and new chrome parts on these bikes.  It would have been quite feasible during this time to have seen two or three Huffman bikes of the same model but each with a different mix of blacked - out and chrome parts as an example until the manufacturer either used up the remaining stocks of black finish parts or paid the cost to have these parts chromed.  This being the case it would be very difficult if not impossible to say with certainty whether any particular bike from this very short time frame were absolutely from the factory accurate.  If it were my bike, I would take the bike apart clean, de-grease and re-lubricate movable parts such as hub and brake components,  BB and crank components, frame head parts and chain.  I would then re-assemble the bike lightly clean the frame and sheet metal, test ride it and enjoy it.  The seat most likely is non-original.  I would look for a period '' Persons'' or '' Mesinger'' seat either of which could have been used on your bike from the factory.  Also, I would absolutely not tamper with what appears to be the original finish as it looks fine.  Hope this helps.

Regards,
Bill


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## Guinness (Jul 29, 2021)

Indeed it does and I want to thank you and everyone else who has responded to my questions.  I’m sure I’ll have more as I go along.  

-Guinness


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## sykerocker (Jul 31, 2021)

What you’re describing is a genre fairly common in WWII reenactment. Take a vehicle that’ll pass at twenty feet and convert it over for field use, thus saving wear and tear on the original. I’ve done a couple of conversions using seventies Raleigh Tourists, turning them into pre-WWII civilian bikes for British impressions like Women’s Land Army, etc. 

This is getting way more prevalent as certain vehicles get too valuable to take into the mud. Nobody doing Weremacht takes an original BMW R75 into the field. They convert a Ural instead.


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## Mercian (Aug 12, 2021)

Hi,

It's a personal opinion, but I don't see the interest in turning an original WW2 (but not military) bicycle into a fake WW2 bicycle. There are plenty of anaonymous frames that would be better to use.

Military personnel certainly didn't rely on the military to supply them with bicycles, only certain trades would have been entitled to them. There have been a few examples of wartime or prewar civilian bikes with officer's names stencilled on them, so these were doubtless personal aquisitions.

Incidentally, this is the same bike as originally found:









						1945 Dayton/Huffman | Project Rides
					

Found this a few weeks ago. Looked pretty dirty when I got it. Did the usual, WD40/0000 wipedown, a little rubbing compound and a followup Polish compounding. Installed the tank, Joe's Bomber fender ornament (it is a flyer afterall). Both hubs, crank assy are blackouts.  Fork dated 11/44...




					thecabe.com
				




Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Guinness (Aug 12, 2021)

Being brand new to the hobby of vintage bikes, I value all the opinions that have been expressed with regard to my initial query.  I initially set-out with the intention of obtaining a G529 bicycle thinking I could enjoy it both at home and take it with me to the various air shows and living history events I regularly attend.  The relative rarity of "original" bicycles (to say nothing of their price) quickly served to adjust my thinking, and like many participants in the hobby of reenacting, I started thinking in terms of an accurate reproduction.  By and large, within the hobby of reenacting, most of the uniforms are reproductions, as is much of the equipment people utilize.  With the passage of time, more and more of the "original" things that participants routinely brought into the field are becoming far too scarce/rare/valuable to subject to the wear and tear most events subject them to.  On top of that, I've known many people who have started with a "base foundation"; say an original rifle stock, or Jeep framework, or what have you, who have then used a combination of original and reproduction parts to assemble a highly accurate reproduction.  These aren't built to fool, trick, or defraud the public or would-be buyers.  Rather, I think in most cases, they are used because the originals simply aren't available or are far too rare to bring out.  They are, for lack of a better word, props with which to participate and/or encourage the beginnings of a dialog - why something matters, or how something was used.  

Such was my thinking at least when I purchased the bicycle I did.  It was/is a Huffman frame, of the appropriate time period.  With the addition of some parts - be they original or reproduction, and a proper paint job, I thought I would have not only the bike I could enjoy, but that would also serve as a preliminary "talking point" to spectators.  Ah, but then I began reading and posting here...

I've come to realize however, that what I in fact obtained is, in many respects, perhaps more-interesting than simply a G519, or even a very good reproduction/tribute bike.  For the time being, my plan is to simply clean it up and enjoy it.  But the other thing I've come to realize is that this hobby isn't really all that different than most others.  I'm sure if I were to take the time to look, there are other forums in which members argue the comparative worth of restoring, say a '57 Chevy to it's original glory versus leaving it in it's current condition, or some other group debating the merits of restoring war-era helmets to newly-issued condition - wait a sec, that is my group.  Heck, I once saw two elderly volunteers at a museum I worked for come to blows over what constituted "real" chicken pot pie.  (for the uninformed, "real" chicken pot pie doesn't involve crust - just big old square noodles).  Sorry, I'm rambling here.  

Again, the opinions, thoughts, and advice this forum have offered are very much appreciated and considered.  The bike - a Huffman-made early '45 frame and late '44 dated forks, badged as a Western Flyer, will remain just as it is (maybe cleaned-up just a bit and given a nice coat of wax) and will be enjoyed to the fullest.    

Cheers,

-Guinness


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## Mercian (Aug 12, 2021)

Thanks @Guinness 

An excellent, reasoned post.

We are of a similar age, and I'm a (semi retired) reenactor. I remember the days of only being able to use original equipment, and then the first reproduction equipment coming along (actually surplus props from Saving Private Ryan)... At the time I was a bit sceptical about it, but now I see how it protects the original equipment from damage.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Guinness (Aug 12, 2021)

And to think the young guys now would probably immediately point to those “Saving Private Ryan” props as being completely inaccurate by comparison to more-recent reproductions for today’s authentically-minded reenactors.  

I have a number of friends who started-out reenacting the American Civil War in the early 1960s.  At that time, it was not at all uncommon to see someone sporting original leathers, weapons, or even assorted bits of uniform.  Flash forward 60 years and people would be absolute aghast if you were to bring original anything out on to the field.  I would imagine, in the not too distant future, the same might be said of anything that survives from WWII.  Frankly, I’m kind of surprised no one has come along and marketed an accurate reproduction of the more popular bicycle types from that era made of newly manufactured parts.

-Guinness


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## Pvtryanww2 (Feb 18, 2022)

Well al Berger makes repro ww2 bicycle parts


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## sykerocker (Feb 18, 2022)

Guinness said:


> Frankly, I’m kind of surprised no one has come along and marketed an accurate reproduction of the more popular bicycle types from that era made of newly manufactured parts.
> 
> -Guinness




Probably because nobody thinks that bicycles had anything to do with WWII - credit that to the American "bicycles are children's toys" attitude.


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## Mercian (Feb 18, 2022)

Guinness said:


> And to think the young guys now would probably immediately point to those “Saving Private Ryan” props as being completely inaccurate by comparison to more-recent reproductions for today’s authentically-minded reenactors.
> 
> I have a number of friends who started-out reenacting the American Civil War in the early 1960s.  At that time, it was not at all uncommon to see someone sporting original leathers, weapons, or even assorted bits of uniform.  Flash forward 60 years and people would be absolute aghast if you were to bring original anything out on to the field.  I would imagine, in the not too distant future, the same might be said of anything that survives from WWII.  Frankly, I’m kind of surprised no one has come along and marketed an accurate reproduction of the more popular bicycle types from that era made of newly manufactured parts.
> 
> -Guinness



I still have an M41 jacket and buckle boots from 'Saving Private Ryan'. One of the fun things about the boots is that they were made with smooth soles, so that in scenes where people are lying on Omaha Beach, there wouldn't be problems with modern, incorrect or unworn treads showing.

When I did the 70th Anniversary of DDay in Normandy, I wore my original M3 D bale helmet, because I didn't have a reproduction, and it had only cost me £5 originally anyway. I had someone lecture me on the treatment of these relics, which I found highly amusing.

Al Berger is a friend, and has done a good job on reproducing some items. He used to do complete bicycles, and they were a mixture of real, reproduction and and modified parts. I understand (but am willling to be corrected) he stopped offering this once the NOS saddle bases and Columbia rear mudguards dried up, and the wheel rims became rarer. There are still handlebars out there, but even those will go.

That is not to say that all the remaining NoS spares have been found yet. Let's hope there's some more goodies out there. (-:

About 25 years ago, in Europe there was a sudden glut of NOS size 3 US Gaiters. They'd been difficult to get until this point, but apparently someone located a huge number 'in a basement in New York'. Soon, they were cheap enough that if the laces snapped, you bought a new pair of gaiters, and I saw them in surplus shops from Greece to Norway. Now all gone, and have been for a long time.

Sorry, that was a bit random. (-:

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Pvtryanww2 (Feb 18, 2022)

Mercian said:


> I still have an M41 jacket and buckle boots from 'Saving Private Ryan'. One of the fun things about the boots is that they were made with smooth soles, so that in scenes where people are lying on Omaha Beach, there wouldn't be problems with modern, incorrect or unworn treads showing.
> 
> When I did the 70th Anniversary of DDay in Normandy, I wore my original M3 D bale helmet, because I didn't have a reproduction, and it had only cost me £5 originally anyway. I had someone lecture me on the treatment of these relics, which I found highly amusing.
> 
> ...



Well somebody needs step up and make repro stuff like al Berger does ..


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## Mercian (Feb 18, 2022)

Hi @Pvtryanww2

It's a question of there being a market for it, and someone having the vision to see the market, and the money to invest to get the returns. Capitalism 101.

Until the 1990's there were nearly no reproduction parts for WW2 jeeps. This was partly because there were still original parts if you could find them, and parts for French made M201 jeeps fit if you weren't bothered about originality (Incidentally, the jeep coming off the beach in SPR is a Hotchkiss M201, not a Willys MB).

Body parts started to be made in the Philippines, because of the traditional Jeepneys there, and various companies in Europe, and I guess the US started to import them. The early bodies were poor copies, and thin steel, but when it was realised that people would pay for good copies, the quality improved. As the other original spares dried up, then it became worthwhile making reproductions.

About the year 2000 I visted a dealer called Reomie BV in Holland. They had built a Willys MB out of 80% reproduction parts, and at that point told me the following year they expected to build a Ford GPW, and within a couple of years the first 100% reproduction vehicle.

There will never be a market the size of WW2 jeeps. For a start they only made a tenth of the number of bicycles. However that would not necessarily stop someone producing parts and cornering a small market.

You're a young guy who is interested in WW2 and bicycles, you have contacts in the reenacting world, you have the information WW2 bikes we provide gratis here. Perhaps this is your opportunity to "step up"? It would be tough and risky, but you'd be attempting to achieve somehing different, something you enjoy.

I wish you the best of luck if you do decide to.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Pvtryanww2 (Feb 18, 2022)

Mercian said:


> Hi @Pvtryanww2
> 
> It's a question of there being a market for it, and someone having the vision to see the market, and the money to invest to get the returns. Capitalism 101.
> 
> ...



I do reenact and I’m a military historian the bicycle stuff is still new to me


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## Guinness (Feb 18, 2022)

Given the realities of the world we live in, an investment in this sort of venture would be a pretty hard sell to would-be investors.  Yes, it would be grand if you could simply order a reproduction bike, accurate in all the details.  But how long, or more to the point, how many reproduction bicycles would get bought before the market was exhausted?  It seems that with each passing year, there are fewer events and fewer participants.  I'm not suggesting WWII reenacting is going to disappear, but it's certainly in a "down cycle" at present (as are most 'eras' in reenacting).  

Thus, as the cost of 'original' bikes seems to be continually going up, it seems reasonable to think that owners will be less inclined to put undo wear & tear on their original examples.  You might be better-off trying to assemble a bike that looks the part, but in truth is made of post war bits and pieces and save the original and genuinely authentic examples for display only. 

Just my opinion and other folk's mileage will likely vary considerably,

-Guinness


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## Freqman1 (Feb 18, 2022)

Mercian said:


> Hi @Pvtryanww2
> 
> It's a question of there being a market for it, and someone having the vision to see the market, and the money to invest to get the returns. Capitalism 101.
> 
> ...



x2 accurately reproducing a part let alone an entire bike isn't a cheap venture. There have been people here who have reproduced rare parts and have not come out ahead. This happens for two reasons: First, if you are going to reproduce a part it needs to have broad appeal. Reproducing a part for something that only a couple dozen exist is a sure money loser unless you customers have deep pockets and are willing to step up. Secondly, speaking of stepping up, I see people hunting rare stuff but don't want to pay market price. Genuine wartime bikes and parts are not cheap. Quality reproduction parts are not cheap either. I understand not everyone has unlimited disposable income, I sure don't, but if you need a part and its offered up it may be your only chance for quite a while before another pops up. 

As far as riding these, or any other classic machine, I really don't have a problem. If you have an original bike and are concerned about the wear items then just get a rider seat, pedals, tires, and grips. This way you can put these things on and take the bike out and when you want to just display swap them back. I ride just about everything I have and most of it is none the worse for wear. Jus my 2c. V/r Shawn


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## sykerocker (Feb 19, 2022)

As someone who ran a 17th century sutlery during the 80's and 90's (Syke's Sutlering), do not underestimate what it takes to bring a line of period correct, even from a four foot distance (all my clothing was machine sewn, not hand), items to market.  You start by getting in touch with unit commanders and find out what the regimental specs are, then come up with a product that's acceptable to as many units as possible.  And it's not necessarily just what the textbooks say, either.


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## GregoryB (Feb 19, 2022)

Hello Guinness,
I strongly recommend that you contact two people for helpful information:
1).  Al Berger at... http://www.bergerwerke.com/     His website provides the best resource information on the history of G519 military bicycles from WWII and he sells top-quality reproductions of some very hard-to-find parts for bicycle restorations.
2).  Bob Ujszaszi, a CABE member at... https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/saddle-services-whizzer-pogo-airflo-troxel-streamlined-etc.157107/     Bob is the go-to person for either buying a beautifully restored saddle or having a vintage saddle restored. Given time, I'm sure that Bob could locate and restore a period-correct Persons saddle for you.

And for your info, I kind-of unintentionally ended up building a G519 bike as a tribute to both my late father and to my childhood memories using an 11/4 fork date coded Huffman-built balloon tire bicycle that already had a lot of the same type of parts as used on the military bikes. This project wasn't something I planned on doing but once I got the bike and the idea, everything else seemed to quickly fall into place. Plus, I got lucky finding all the parts needed for this project idea from either the CABE or from eBay.

When I was growing up in the 60's, my father had an olive drab Dayton bicycle that my brother and I called "The Tank." There was no speeding away from him on our small kiddy bikes we had at that time - even for my older brother on his super-sporty 60's Sting-Ray. We understood that our dad's bike was an ex-Army bike from WWII. But that bike is long gone except for our memories. And we think that he probably bought that old bike at an Army/Navy Surplus store sometime after the war.

Pictured below is my father circa 1943 at Camp Barkley, TX, as a 1st Lt, Headquarters Company, 358th Regiment, 90th DIV ...






And this is my completed tribute bike...




I had to use a longer seat post for my 6ft height but other than that, everything else is basically period correct. Repo truss rod parts and pedal blocks came from Al Berger, saddle restored by Bob Ujszaszi, post-war Centipede Grip tires, original blackout Morrow rear hub and a blackout Eclipse front hub sourced from the CABE were used to build the wheels and were repainted olive drab, repo grips and an original Persons seat bag from eBay, also a vintage military-type Bevin bell, kickstand and the correct unmarked wartime Delta headlight. It may not be a real G519 bike and will never be advertised as such but damn me if it hasn't turned out to be a nice-looking tribute bike! Just the thing for local 4th of July parades!

All the best,
Gregory


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