# A Superior? True or False



## GTs58 (Feb 13, 2020)

Looks like BlueMoonBikes is trying to confuse me. ha!  Is this a Superior? I say it's a 1940-41 New World. 

@SirMike1983 @Eric Amlie @Schwinn499 @Miq @rennfaron @cyclingday 

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=202904818413    More pics in the ebay link


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## PCHiggin (Feb 13, 2020)

Do they describe the crank/bottom bracket?


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## GTs58 (Feb 13, 2020)

PCHiggin said:


> Do they describe the crank/bottom bracket?




Nope, and no serial number given. Here's a letter the owner wrote up about this "Superior".


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## Eric Amlie (Feb 14, 2020)

I don't know a lot about these early models, but all the early Superiors that I've seen had the Superior specific headbadge.


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## PCHiggin (Feb 14, 2020)

I dont know enough about either model to make a call but I'd like to learn if anybody else does. Are the seat clamps different?


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## fordmike65 (Feb 14, 2020)

@Schwinn499


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## bikemonkey (Feb 14, 2020)

My interest waned at the part where the serial number was defaced. 

Maybe my math is wrong but something does not add up...In order to have that 9 speed set up you would have to be using a Sturmey-Archer "K" hub. Wiki states the K hub was introduced in 1922 and was replaced by the AW in 1938. The owner states his Superior was bought in early 1951 and he kept the original SA hub during his modifications, but the spec sheet for a 1952 Superior lists the AW hub.


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## rustjunkie (Feb 14, 2020)

superior has removable seat post clamp,  larger tubing, and a 26.8 seatpost


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## rennfaron (Feb 14, 2020)

I started asking questions to the seller and just getting vague answers in response. Something fishy when asking questions to a bike shop and they act like they don't know...

edit - replied back that the seat post clamp is welded on / firmly attached and not removable.


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## Andrew Gorman (Feb 14, 2020)

Superiors and Paramounts were pretty much made to order and any way you wanted them.  The long wheelbase looks like a Superior tourer, but it's missing the little fender mount tabs.  Looks like a nice period  bike put together by an enthusiast. There were triple cog set ups for the AW hub available.


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## bobcycles (Feb 14, 2020)

rennfaron said:


> I started asking questions to the seller and just getting vague answers in response. Something fishy when asking questions to a bike shop and they act like they don't know...
> 
> edit - replied back that the seat post clamp is welded on / firmly attached and not removable.




They are Sting Ray folks......


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## rennfaron (Feb 14, 2020)

I looked back through all my catalogued images of new worlds, continentals, superiors, paramounts etc and didn't come across one example that had no significant head tube height sticking up higher than the top tube. The top tube almost runs right into the top of the head tube. Chopped? Why?


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## rennfaron (Feb 14, 2020)

PCHiggin said:


> Do they describe the crank/bottom bracket?



Image of the bottom bracket


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## GTs58 (Feb 14, 2020)

Looks like the owner Richard Pierce defaced the serial number and then carved in the date he butchered up that New World and renamed it a Superior. Also noticed that Bluemoon added some info today saying the bike is on consignment.
No built in kickstand, welded on seat post clamp, standard diameter gas pipe tubing, not cromo, with standard diameter seat post. That has to be a modified 1940-41 New World and Richard Pierce had a lapse of memory or was still delusional when he wrote that letter.


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## Jeff54 (Feb 15, 2020)

bikemonkey said:


> My interest waned at the part where the serial number was defaced.
> 
> Maybe my math is wrong but something does not add up...In order to have that 9 speed set up you would have to be using a Sturmey-Archer "K" hub. Wiki states the K hub was introduced in 1922 and was replaced by the AW in 1938. The owner states his Superior was bought in early 1951 and he kept the original SA hub during his modifications, but the spec sheet for a 1952 Superior lists the AW hub.



With wheels an SA hub or what ever original to him,  I seriously doubt he ruined a new bike with his 'custom 'paint. So,  Just cause he created a 9 speed Frankenstein in 51, it doesn't mean the bike was made then or wasn't a parts bike to begin with. .


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## ccdc.1 (Feb 15, 2020)

This does appear to be a transitional bike between the New World and 2nd generation Superior. The welded on seat tube clamp and the rear dropouts say early New World, but the fork crown and dropouts, tubing diameter and the assertions of the previous owner say 2nd generation Superior, which was introduced as a down-market model below the Continental in 1949 (and very different from the first generation Superior, Track or Tourist versions). Maybe these were holdover/leftover New World frames re-purposed as a 'new' Superior model in 1949, sorta like the Sport Tourer frames that found new life as the Superior in 1975-76? I see the bike has sold....likely for the Paramount crank, Torrington pedals and the nice deep alloy track bars. Maybe the frame will show up again after it is stripped of these goodies?


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## GTs58 (Feb 15, 2020)

ccdc.1 said:


> This does appear to be a transitional bike between the New World and 2nd generation Superior. The welded on seat tube clamp and the rear dropouts say early New World, but the fork crown and dropouts, tubing diameter and the assertions of the previous owner say 2nd generation Superior, which was introduced as a down-market model below the Continental in 1949 (and very different from the first generation Superior, Track or Tourist versions). Maybe these were holdover/leftover New World frames re-purposed as a 'new' Superior model in 1949, sorta like the Sport Tourer frames that found new life as the Superior in 1975-76? I see the bike has sold....likely for the Paramount crank, Torrington pedals and the nice deep alloy track bars. Maybe the frame will show up again after it is stripped of these goodies?
> 
> View attachment 1140398




I'm sure that NW sold for the reasons you mentioned. It did have a few parts on it that are pretty hard to find and sought after but the frame is still a pre war built frame that was outdated by the war time built frames that had EF head tubes and EF top and down tube joints at the head tube. All the post war models had a built in kickstand so this piece is staying in tune with a pre war built New World. The fork was more than likely swapped out and rennfaron brought up the head tube height above the top tube, which looks short and possibly milled down to accommodate a mismatched steer tube.


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## PCHiggin (Feb 15, 2020)

I thought their EF process was post war?


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## GTs58 (Feb 15, 2020)

PCHiggin said:


> I thought their EF process was post war?




Nope, it actually started pre war with the rear drop outs on the 1940 lightweights. Then war time 42+ the BB shell, head tube, top and down tubes to the head tube and seat post to the bottom bracket were EF. Then the chain stays and down tube to BB were EF on the post war frames. The early post war lightweights still had the chain stays hand welded to the BB.

Go thru @Miq 's thread on the New Worlds, there's a few examples shown.








						Wartime Schwinn New World Bikes - We Know You Have Them - Tell Us About Them!! | Lightweight Schwinn Bicycles
					

Please help us gather some more info on wartime Schwinn New Worlds (or other lightweights).  We know many of you have these unique bikes and they all have an interesting story to tell.  We are already starting to get an idea of what serial number New Worlds have the transition from brazing to...




					thecabe.com


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## PCHiggin (Feb 16, 2020)

Thanks,always cool to learn something new. I didnt know they made bikes during the war,I thought Columbia and Huffman had the exclusive on that


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## GTs58 (Feb 16, 2020)

PCHiggin said:


> Thanks,always cool to learn something new. I didnt know they made bikes during the war,I thought Columbia and Huffman had the exclusive on that



You haven't seen this then. It's on Findley's site.


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## Miq (Feb 16, 2020)

It seems like people allot all the war time production to cycle trucks, but we've seen many nice War Time New Worlds with blackout parts and war time crank dates.  Here's a few sweet victory bikes from the CABE:
@Jim Barnard







@3-speeder







@koolkatz




eBay







@Cooper S.







@Arfsaidthebee






@bikepaulie







@Kramai88






probably missing some other ones we've seen...


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## PCHiggin (Feb 16, 2020)

Thanks,always cool to learn something new. I didnt know they made bikes during the war,I thought Columbia and Huffman had the exclusive on that


GTs58 said:


> You haven't seen this then. It's on Findley's site.
> 
> View attachment 1140432



Thanks,No,I havent seen this and I've been on that site many times. Didnt realize much more info. there


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## ccdc.1 (Feb 16, 2020)

Interesting that several of the war-time New Worlds pictured have the Superior-style fork crown (with the typical NW fork dropouts are the stamped rather than brazed). More evidence that the eBay bike was maybe a straight New World from the war-time era, and later updated.


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## GTs58 (Feb 16, 2020)

ccdc.1 said:


> Interesting that several of the war-time New Worlds pictured have the Superior-style fork crown (with the typical NW fork dropouts are the stamped rather than brazed). More evidence that the eBay bike was maybe a straight New World from the war-time era, and later updated.




If this eBay New World was a war time frame it would have had the electro forged head tube and tube attachments at the head tube.

Here's an early war time New World head, everything is in Miq's thread posted above. J series serial number on this one. Also, a few earlier pieces in that thread have the same fork.


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## GTs58 (Feb 16, 2020)

*1939 Catalog*


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## 3-speeder (Feb 17, 2020)

Interesting machine but why scratch out the serial number? I don't understand that. You can add the mod date without carving up the sn.


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## PCHiggin (Feb 17, 2020)

3-speeder said:


> Interesting machine but why scratch out the serial number? I don't understand that. You can add the mod date without carving up the sn.



Could have been stolen long ago


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## 3-speeder (Feb 17, 2020)

PCHiggin said:


> Could have been stolen long ago



Hah! That was the first thing that I thought


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## rennfaron (Feb 17, 2020)

3-speeder said:


> Interesting machine but why scratch out the serial number? I don't understand that. You can add the mod date without carving up the sn.





PCHiggin said:


> Could have been stolen long ago





3-speeder said:


> Hah! That was the first thing that I thought



You really want to hide something by obliterating that serial like that.


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