# Automoto Identification



## Yelbom15 (Dec 1, 2021)

Hello,

Purchased a bicycle from Italy not realizing it was an Automoto once I adjusted the photos to see the head had clovers on it. However, no holes whatsoever for the head badge. This design was for Automotos between 1920s and early 1930s but I can’t determine anything more from that. Lugs and eyelets resemble a Bianchi Saetta. Even serial number placement resembles where Bianchis put there’s. Possibility of both brands being manufactured in the same factory? Has internal routing as well. 

It does show some different assortments of components such as the cranks. That I’m not worried about.


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## dnc1 (Dec 1, 2021)

I did a search on Tontonvelo,  but I see you've already posted information there.
You can use the plating on the fork crown as a rough guide to dating .
Generally speaking, chrome plating started being used in 1929, prior to that date nickel plating was used. 
I'm not sure that they are internal routing holes, (1920's/30's may be slightly early for that) I think it more likely that they are the mounting points for rod brake pivots.
Nice find.


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## Yelbom15 (Dec 1, 2021)

dnc1 said:


> I did a search on Tontonvelo,  but I see you've already posted information there.
> You can use the plating on the fork crown as a rough guide to dating .
> Generally speaking, chrome plating started being used in 1929, prior to that date nickel plating was used.
> I'm not sure that they are internal routing holes, (1920's/30's may be slightly early for that) I think it more likely that they are the mounting points for rod brake pivots.
> Nice find.



Rod brake pivots makes a lot more sense. I’ll take a look at the plating tonight and thank you. First pre-war bike.


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## dnc1 (Dec 1, 2021)

Oh, and welcome to the Cabe!
Are there also similar holes at the base of the down tube?
Often things like brakes get changed around through time but those are nice era correct brakes on there.
The French were very fond of using that style of brake as an upgrade on rod-brake type rims; even though they act only on the thin edge of the rims.
It will make a great rider; that relatively relaxed geometry makes for a very comfortable ride.
Very nice set of handlebars too, that look maybe earlier than the period you're thinking of, but hard to tell really from the photos.


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## Yelbom15 (Dec 1, 2021)

@dnc1 Thank you for the kind reply and information. I’ve ridden it for a couple minutes and you couldn’t be more correct on the comfort. This bike may see a century ride! 

I was wondering if it would be brake pivot point because aren’t all brake pivot points located on the down tube? I marked where the holes are located which are
the top tube only.

It’s an odd Automoto frame without a doubt. No preexisting holes for a head badge and the reverse seat collar lug isn’t found on this era frame.


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## dnc1 (Dec 2, 2021)

Apologies, 
I thought the 5th (from top) photo in your first post showed holes in the top and down tubes, but I think they may be just the lug cut-outs.

Have you considered that it may not be 'Automoto' at all, but possibly some (as yet) unknown manufacturer?
The fork crown is also different to contemporary 'Automoto' designs.
Other manufacturers could have used the 'trefle' lug cutouts design.
I'm thinking of how 'Martelly' track bikes are mistaken for 'Colnago'; and 'Contini' for 'Cinelli ' - in both examples they use very similar logos.

If you think it's similar to period 'Bianchi' design, and possibly Italian you could check out the bottom bracket threads to see if they are Italian or French threaded.


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## dnc1 (Dec 2, 2021)

'Mosca' is not too uncommon surname in the French, Swiss, Italian alpine regions.
Apparently there is/was an old bicycle shop of that name in Grenoble, France.
Also 'Cicli Mosca' is a shop in Mariano Comense in the Como region.
Might be worth further exploration.


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## Yelbom15 (Dec 2, 2021)

I’ll have to keep doing some research. I came across an Automoto frame but with Favor as the brand for it’s build.

I will service the bottom bracket here soon to check threads. That may be the best path for an answer.

Mosca could have potentially been a very small shop that never made it big using Automoto material in hopes of a partnership though I don’t think the French and Italians liked each very much back then. I’m trying my best to figure out the saddle name as well. Starts with an M and then every other letter is brittled and worn.


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## juvela (Dec 12, 2021)

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the first thing i would do would be to measure tubing diameters and threading of steerer and shell

the frame exhibits several features suggesting an Italy origin

these include seat lug/seat binder/seat stay treatment

also the pointed ends of the taper tubes

the fixed bottom bracket cup appears it may be a three-dogger; a design strongly suggestive of Italy

as mentioned above, there were other makers who made use of the clover leaf symbol

have little knowledge of this era but know that in the post-WWII time there were several makers other then Automoto who produced bicycles bearing the Automoto name...

---

the design of the machine's chainset appears it might be one widely employed in France for a good three decades or so

in this design the drive side arm has a threaded flange onto which the chainwheel threads.  the chainwheel is in turn secured with a threaded lockring similar to the ones employed on adjustable bottom bracket cups and track hubs

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## Yelbom15 (Dec 12, 2021)

I’ve had a lot of people wondering what this is. Even a very well known user based in France on the forum ‘Tonton Velo’ states it’s an Automoto after going back and forth with him for a couple months.

The model I own would have not been that of a “racing breed” such as their Course or Tour de France models. It was more of their city bike which at some point from the 1920s/30s to now, someone converted as a “path racer”.

Though, I’m still skeptical on the bike being an Automoto. I’ve been meaning to find the time to take measurements and look at threads and so forth! The bottom bracket is stamped ‘B.S’ which I couldn’t find anything on besides BSA which I doubt that implies.

It rides so well that my love for the bike overpowers my curiosity towards it’s origins.


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## Jesper (Jan 22, 2022)

Alright folks, I have taken ownership of this bike. A nice guy who departed with it, but I think he was looking for something a little different based our discussion. I am pretty much of the opinion that it is an Automoto frame built for another brand. I have already determined that it has a French threaded BB. Mismatched front (French make) and rear (SUBLIME; not familiar with it) calipers indicate replacement of one or both cailpers. More than likely the wheels are not original given the roller/rod brake design on the rims. It doesn't show any indication of having brake linkage hardware installed. I don't believe the holes in the top tube were for brake hardware, and definitely not for internal cable routing, although it seems possible to "repurpose" them for that use. Odd difference from other Automoto frames is the forward pump peg braze-ons (I have only seen seat tube posterior pegs), and the fork crown not being of a cross tube style. The saddle is probably of French origin; I should be able to determine the make with some effort; it's in rough shape, and would at present be painful to ride (like getting a 'wedgie'); but may be able to be refurbished for short leisure riding. Regardless, I have some old Ideale saddles, one of which should blend in nicely enough even though not period. Rear hub has a single speed Regina FW, with a fixed cog on the opposite side. Overall, hubs and crank (now serviced) are in good working order. I have a set of wooden rims that would look good once it gets a paint job (green and white?). I've seen a variety of badges so need to find one close to the period if possible. Pedals are definitely not period, but I have some 30s-40s French style pedals (haven't verified threading yet). Nice looking nicked (I believe) plated stem. I doubt bars (more track style, not Maes) are original given the frame geometry. Bars need wrap.


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## dnc1 (Jan 23, 2022)

There are a few mentions of bikes from the 1930's in Tontonvelo featuring "Sublime" calipers, but sadly no information on this marque itself.
There were so many copies of what is basically the "Bowden" caliper with many different brand names.
I still think it's worth pursuing the old bike shop route re. the Mosca chainset,  but is the Italian freewheel French or Italian  threaded?


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## Jesper (Jan 23, 2022)

@dnc1  good question about the FW; I have not separated it from the hub body yet. Thinking that the hubs were probably part of the (assumed) replaced wheels so may only provide limited info with thread type. I have not researched the Mosca tie-in (I assumed crankset replaced on either an original or a replacement BB assy); that was a shop in Italy? I should have everything apart in the coming weeks if my work schedule permits it. I don't belive the previous owner serviced any of it, but who knows.


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## dnc1 (Jan 24, 2022)

Jesper said:


> @dnc1  good question about the FW; I have not separated it from the hub body yet. Thinking that the hubs were probably part of the (assumed) replaced wheels so may only provide limited info with thread type. I have not researched the Mosca tie-in (I assumed crankset replaced on either an original or a replacement BB assy); that was a shop in Italy? I should have everything apart in the coming weeks if my work schedule permits it. I don't belive the previous owner serviced any of it, but who knows.



Have a look back at post #7 in this thread.


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## Jesper (Jan 24, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> 'Mosca' is not too uncommon surname in the French, Swiss, Italian alpine regions.
> Apparently there is/was an old bicycle shop of that name in Grenoble, France.
> Also 'Cicli Mosca' is a shop in Mariano Comense in the Como region.
> Might be worth further exploration.



That company's history is modern; established in 2007 so I don't think that there is any common link other than the name. Maybe some family relationship, but I have not found anything to support that yet. https://www.dnb.com/business-direct...ristian.d4a8679b9101e381f1371a0dc8112f97.html


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## dnc1 (Jan 24, 2022)

Jesper said:


> That company's history is modern; established in 2007 so I don't think that there is any common link other than the name. Maybe some family relationship, but I have not found anything to support that yet. https://www.dnb.com/business-direct...ristian.d4a8679b9101e381f1371a0dc8112f97.html



True, re. the Italian shop.
But the shop in Grenoble was contemporaneous with the bike. You may have to search the local archives/history society to garner any information.


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## tripple3 (Jan 25, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> contemporaneous




existing or occurring in the same period of time.
"Pythagoras was *contemporaneous with* Buddha"


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## dnc1 (Jan 25, 2022)

tripple3 said:


> existing or occurring in the same period of time.
> "Pythagoras was *contemporaneous with* Buddha"



I do love a long word! Lol!


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## Jesper (Jan 25, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> I do love a long word! Lol!



Extraterritoriality; sorry I had to go there! What I hope you will afford to me when I act like a fool in your country. I needed that in Palma de Majorca about 35 years ago; I'm a little older and wiser now!


dnc1 said:


> I do love a long word! Lol!


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## Jesper (Feb 5, 2022)

Period correct head badge for my bike. I have seen another of similar design that was supposedly from a 1920s bike; Velobase entry has that same design estimated to be from the 1910s-1930s (quote: "This badge appeared in the 1910's and desappeared before 1930. A another version with bigger T continued in the beginning of the 30's"). Late 30s had a more simple badge with the distinct "AuTomoTo" logo. I believe my badge to be early to mid 30s having the later logo lettering, but the earlier fancy design.

I have been unable to verify Mosca as the bike rebrand so I may install an Automoto made crankset from rhe same period.

My badge:






Velobase example:





(Photo Credit: VeloBase User jjbbo)


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## Jesper (Mar 1, 2022)

Picked up an Automoto made crankset. I believe the chainwheel is original to the cranks; nickel plated, similar patina.
I find it interesting that the chainwheel's spoke decor is the same as that of the "MOSCA" chainwheel on the spoke that has no letter embellishment. I know that Automoto produced their own components so if the chainwheel I obtained is an Automoto then it stands to reason that the "MOSCA" chainwheel is also an Automoto product and may indicate it being original to the frame, and thus could indicate the what brand the bike was originally built for. That's my best Sherlock Holmes deduction anyways, as I have none better; nor has an alternate explanation been offered.
I am still rebuilding the frame as an Automoto since I have no reference as to the Mosca design other than the chainwheel example which might not be authentic to the actual company logo. Using the "MOSCA" chainwheel on the 30s Gerbi frame which is getting put to the front of the after the Automoto regarding the antique projects.


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## Jesper (Mar 29, 2022)

I got my Automoto hubs in last week and I am now a bit confused, not by the hubs themselves, but by the butterfly nuts I had planned on using. I didn't know what the hub axle threading would be, but I knew I had some French nuts hoping they would fit. I have no metric thread pitch gauge to verify actual threads.
  Both hubs are the same diameter which surprised me, and the rear is smaller than I would have thought. If they were the same, I figured that the front would match a larger diameter spindle and not the other way around.
  The nuts that fit both hubs are cast with "OXO" and I believe "DEPOSE" (assuming "DÉPOSÉ") markings, and they have been stamped "9" or "6". I only had one pair. Another pair I have are cast with "95" and nothing else. The latter do not fit the Automoto hubs, but they do fit the front hub axle of of  Gipiemme set of track hubs. Neither fit nut sets the rear "GPM" hub, nor do they fit the front or rear axles of an English set of track hubs. I thought Italian hubs were 9mm front and 10mm rear; but I have probably never measured them before since my pitch gauge is SAE.
  I am assuming (probably incorrectly) the "95" is .95mm thread pitch, and "9" is .9mm thread pitch.
  Any thoughts? I am not familiar with the "OXO" brand from that time period ( presumably pre-50s).

Upper set fits Italian front track hubs; lower set fits Automoto front and rear hubs.




Automoto hubs; I believe they are nickel plated.


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## Mercian (Mar 29, 2022)

Hi, @Jesper 

The 9 and 9.5 are for 9.0 and 9.5mm diameter axles.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## dnc1 (Mar 29, 2022)

I've seen French hubs that have 8, 9, 9.5, 10 and 11mm hub axles from the early 20th. Century. Although 11mm is pretty unusual. 
The hubs on my unknown French bike, 'Inconnu' has larger diameter rear axles.


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## Jesper (Mar 29, 2022)

Mercian said:


> Hi, @Jesper
> 
> The 9 and 9.5 are for 9.0 and 9.5mm diameter axles.
> 
> ...



What seems odd is that the "95" marked nuts start to thread onto the Automoto axles (maybe 2 turns). If those nuts were for 9.5mm axles, but of the same thread pitch as the "9" nuts, they should have easily threaded onto the Automoto axles while having a loose fit. I am not saying you are wrong, but I just could not understand why the presumably larger nuts were not able to thread onto the smaller axle diameter. Also, I have not experienced (to my knowledge) a 9.5mm (just 9mm and 10mm) Italian axle from the modern era (or any era, but not enough experience there); the "GPM" track hubs are circa 70s-80s. I will procure a metric thread gauge just to verify the pitch (nuts and axles), and I will also put a micrometer on the axles to verify diameters.
I hope everything jives with what I am being told thus far, and it is just coincidence the manner in which they happen to fit or not fit due to the very close size differences


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## Jesper (Mar 30, 2022)

Mercian said:


> Hi, @Jesper
> 
> The 9 and 9.5 are for 9.0 and 9.5mm diameter axles.
> 
> ...



Please accept my humble apology! It would seem that due to a lack of sleep (happening quite regularly nowadays), I got everything mixed up. I had already labelled my parts bag with the correct information ("95" fits Automoto), but when thinking about it towards the actual application my brain just didn't click and I got things completely backwards. I may have also been confused when I had tried both sets of nuts on the English hubs thinking they were the Italian ones. The "95" nuts fit the Automoto hubs just fine; hub axle diameter measured 9.45mm. The "9" nuts fit the front GPM track hub just fine; hub axle diameter measured 8.89mm. At least I knew what the Italian hub should have been.
So at least this can be a reference for some (maybe all) early Automoto hubs which require 9.5mm hardware. I don't know if that also applies to other French made hubs of that era. I will verify the Maxi hubs I have on the Baggi and see if they have the same diameter.
Thanks for setting me straight and making me double check my own work!

By the way, the 9.5mm nuts do fit on the Italian hub, but of course quite loose as one would imagine.


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