# One man's patina is another man's rust.



## teisco (May 17, 2011)

I have to admit to not getting the "rust is right" thing happening these days. I did old cars back in the day and we always restored them and did our best to make them like new. Today the younger guys seem to relish a rusty ride and call it a rat rod and if it is a bike, a rat rod bike.

I have a buddy that builds cars and he never paints them and likes them scruffy. He does a great job and his cars win awards and have been in magazines but I just look at his work and think how nice it would be to finish the body work and and chrome and paint it. Shows my age I guess as these are different times.

So I am new to the bike thing and get a few nice shiny bikes and take them over to his garage along with a crusty schwinn I was going to sell and guess what,,,the crusty schwinn got all the attention from the young guys while the old guys ( my age ) liked the restored bikes. 

Nothing wrong with either way, rust or paint, and I know most of you guys like original no matter what. Maybe I should have kept that shabby old schwinn and got with the program.


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## militarymonark (May 17, 2011)

i like both but really dig original cars and bikes vs rust or restored.


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## Talewinds (May 17, 2011)

Few things in life get me REALLY worked up or upset, but nothing bothers me more than spending a ton of money and time on a nice paint job only to have it scratched by a shopping cart or dinged by a rock, it's guaranteed to happen, nearly immediately, and I'm guaranteed to lose my mind.
 I have an older classic car that would need a paint job to make it spectacular, but you know what, I'll be damned if I'm gonna do that. I sleep good at night knowing that those rock chips and dings are on the car, and were there when I bought it. Now, instead of letting the old car just hold down the garage floor I ACTUALLY drive it, a lot, and I don't car if it gets another scratch or chip.
Same goes for old bikes.


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## teisco (May 17, 2011)

Funny thing is I drove all my old cars no matter what. I had an original 37 Packard Convertible Coupe with 38,000 miles that I drove all the time, even in the winter much to the dismay of my Antique Car club buddies. I also had a really nice restored 31 Desoto roadster that I drove all over and even parked in the store lot. I never really worried about getting a scratch so I didn't get them.  I just like a nice looking machine, car or bike.

When you buy a new car off the showroom floor you drive it, that is what it is for, and let the chips fall where they may.


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## partsguy (May 17, 2011)

Once again, when I type for voice my opinion on things or look at my avatar, people, new people especially, will think I'm in my 50s or older...but I'm not. I'm only 17. While an original is good, and I do see the point of what Tailwinds said...I prefer a very nice original or restored. I like seeing something factory fresh as it was back in its day. But you have to admit, the "Rat Rod" craze does bring new life to some rusty old crap I have that otherwise I would have scrapped, LMAO! Seems like anything with rust these days is considered "Rat" material.


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## Talewinds (May 17, 2011)

A Reagan conservative at only 17? Yes, that's something that many folks would have a hard time wrapping their heads around.
 Rat rod bike popularity has injected a nice new element into the hobby, has folks thinking WAY outside the box, I like it.


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## partsguy (May 17, 2011)

Talewinds said:


> A Reagan conservative at only 17? Yes, that's something that many folks would have a hard time wrapping their heads around.
> Rat rod bike popularity has injected a nice new element into the hobby, has folks thinking WAY outside the box, I like it.




Yes, I love this hobby, I like both forms because it is good that people are at least maintaining these things and not letting them rot. I just prefer one over the other. Besides, as the old saying goes "Rust never sleeps". Sure don't.


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## Carbon (May 17, 2011)

I'm with you on this one, I personally would much rather have a nice shiny professionally refinished bike as opposed to a patina special that will only continue deteriorating. I have a 57 Schwinn Tornado that I refinished and put the original Chicago decals and darts on and all new parts and it looks amazing, I really enjoy riding it. Also coming from a car background being an auto paint tech, I enjoy the thrill of the project, I do have a couple of originals but I have touched them up as to make them appear in a little better condition than they really are. The closest I could probably let myself get to a rusty bike in my own stable is designating one Ratrod and painting it brown.


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## cyclingday (May 17, 2011)

I used to think that pretty and shiny was the way to go, but the more bikes I see, the more I appreciate the life that the bike has lived. Once you alter that, its character is gone.

I was watching the show American Restoration the other day, and this guy brought in a little red wagon that he had since he was a kid.

It was in great original shape, but he wanted it to look like it did when it was new.

So, Rick Dale gave the guy exactly what he wanted and both parties were very happy with the results.
But, to me, the soul of that wagon was completely stripped away.

I now feel like an item has to be pretty far gone, or missing a bunch of stuff before a restoration is in order.

And if the decision to restore is made, then every original detail has to be followed to the letter or it will end up looking like a cheezy fake.


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## Talewinds (May 17, 2011)

This ^ 

Definitely.


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## HIGGINSFOREVER (May 17, 2011)

With a lot of guys there is no choice but to go rat rod.It is nothing to drop $1000.00 in a bike,and when your done you have a bike that will never sell for that kind of money.We as bicycle collectors and lovers are lucky we have the group that thinks rust rules.There saving these bikes for that day when its sold to someone who wants and can afford to save it and drop the big bucks in it.


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## ftwelder (May 17, 2011)

I prefer the finish the bike is found with, cleaned and polished. I think if i was into the American mid or heavyweights I might feel differently. To me, the bikes you guys restore to perfection are like a still image or some type of art where racing bikes are about movement or performance. I think racing bicycles should show wear. The more they were loved, the more they were ridden.


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## OldRider (May 17, 2011)

I sold my vintage (80s) mountain bike this past weekend, I too love patina and the well worn but loved look. The bike was in top notch shape, absolutely no flaws in the mechanical side of it, just that I never touched anything else on it. The first guy that came to see it smirked at me and said "you're selling a little bike with that rust"? He offered me 20 dollars for my labor of love, no thanks. Not half an hour later the second guy came and was in total awe of the bike, how cool that patina was. After a quick spin around the block he handed me my 100 dollar asking price and was very happy. That made my day knowing theres others out there that appreciate that kind of look!


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## Oldbikes (May 17, 2011)

cyclingday said:


> I used to think that pretty and shiny was the way to go, but the more bikes I see, the more I appreciate the life that the bike has lived. Once you alter that, its character is gone.
> 
> I was watching the show American Restoration the other day, and this guy brought in a little red wagon that he had since he was a kid.
> 
> ...




I couldn't agree more!  Well said.


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## Larmo63 (May 17, 2011)

I think people should be free to do what they want with what they have. 

I used to restore EVERYTHING!! I would commiserate over every detail at night in bed and lose sleep. It was the thrill of the chase or whatever. The thing about restoration is what Talewinds said; that as soon as you think it is perfect, it isn't. Someone lets his bike fall over on it, (as happened at Newport this weekend, a kook let his stand-less vintage bike blow over on a beautiful old machine,) and then you feel as if your whole world is crashing. I remember taking my '63 Porsche 356 to a car show and I had pulled the hubcaps off, I had primer spots, vintage racing stickers, and I was "rat rod" before the term was coined. Maybe "outlaw" was/is a better term for my machine. Anyway, the snotty, snobby resto-dork "In-Crowd" turned their noses up at me, so I did a few burn-outs on the Concours grass. It caused quite a stir. 

We are all learning what we like, how we like it, and everybody's tastes change. Mine have. I may even end up restoring a certain bike in my stable soon, who knows? Will it be a case of sacrilege?


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## Carbon (May 17, 2011)

My thing is, every 50's balloon bike I have gotten except one, was nothing but a ragged frame and chain guard. That is my era for the style bikes I like most, I have had to get each and every part a piece at a time, I like the thought of riding any of my bikes with the idea that it is as shiny and cool as the kid that got it back in that time, and how cool it must have felt to have lived and ridden back then, not the abandoned bike that was pushed around back of the shed and left to rust away, that to me is no soul, the joy of the original bike is gone after that. I don't exactly restore my bikes, I like them old school with my own custom flare, nice paint, cool original style decals, after all there has never been a bike that was built that I liked exactly how I bought it. When I go for a ride on any of my bikes even just around the neighborhood people go out of there way to ask about it and have given nothing but compliments on them, most aren't even bike enthusiast but immediately recognise that this paticular bike can no longer be found and purchased at a store today. Living close to the ocean and with the salt air bikes around here simply don't last and if you like patina then this is the place for you, though none of my bikes sit outside, they all look super nice and are very cared for.


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## cyclingday (May 17, 2011)

With every bike I have bought, it was not the original condition of the bike that popped my bubble. It was always the misguided attempts by previous owners to touch something up or patch up a hole that killed my enthusiasm for the bike.

Now don't get me wrong, because I have fell prey to the desire to fill a hole or touch up a scratch, but in the end, I always wish that I had just left the thing alone.

The saying," It is what it is", should be tattooed on my fore arm, so that I won't screw things up any worse than they already are.


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## OldRider (May 17, 2011)

"It is what it is"
 Amen CD! Thats exactly what I was trying to say!


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## slick (May 17, 2011)

Well, I own all 3 types, ratty rusty bikes, restored, and original paint. I'd say my personal favorite is the original paint simply for the fact that they are tough to find in clean condition. Rusty beater bikes have there place for the fact that you don't have to worry about scracthing them up loading and unloading them for a ride. A perfect example is my fully restored Airflow I just bought got a few scratches on it on the way home form the Newport ride. Did I care? A little but o well. It's meant to be ridden and things happen. Now the fully restored bikes look awesome, but anyone can restore a bike. I'm not bashing on anyones expensive restorations because I restore bikes too, all i'm saying is it's only original once. So in a nutshell, I just make a judgement call when i see the bike based on rarity, how correct all the parts are, and the condition of paint and chrome.


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## Larmo63 (May 17, 2011)

Or, tattoo that somewhere else?


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## slick (May 17, 2011)

LOL! Here we go again cracking jokes.


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## MartyW (May 17, 2011)

Larmo63 said:


> I may even end up restoring a certain bike in my stable soon, who knows? Will it be a case of sacrilege?




If it is this one, then yes it will be a case of sacrilege!


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## Larmo63 (May 17, 2011)

No, I will not allow Trudy to touch it. (And, it's HER bike!!!)


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## MartyW (May 17, 2011)

Larmo63 said:


> No, I will not allow Trudy to touch it. (And, it's HER bike!!!)





I know I just couldn't resist, her and I actually talked about her wanting it to be shiny and new at the ride. I think that she argrees that it is to well preserved to restore though.


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## teisco (May 18, 2011)

I actually felt the reverse of what some of you are saying. I had a bike that was very original, good paint, chrome, decals,, it all looked good with just a few scratches and dents and a little corrosion. Well I never road that bike because I was afraid damage it and ruin it's pristine condition. I road my restored bikes instead. The thinking was that if I scratched or dented the original I would not be able to fix it or touch it up. If I damaged a  restored bike then repainting a fender or other damage was more acceptable to me.

What would you rather crash or damage, a pristine original or a restored bike? If  you ride your bikes you will sustain damage over time, that is how your nice originals got their patina and love marks when they were first used a long time ago.


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## kcrowe (May 18, 2011)

I think I agree with "teisco" on this one.  I purchased my first vintage bike a few months back and I've agonized on whether to simply clean it up or go for a complete restoration.  I finally decided to rechrome and repaint a bike (X-53) that's already in pretty good condition.  Like someone else said, I want the bike to look very similiar to the way it did new off the show room floor and I don't agree it will lose character or "soul".  Not doing it for profit so I guess it doesn't matter what the value is when I'm done with it.  

Another interesting point....I'm an older guy too.  Maybe it is a generation thing


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## Talewinds (May 18, 2011)

Oh no!!!!!!!! You're painting that X-53!?!? That's the decision you came to? 
 Face-palm.


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## teisco (May 18, 2011)

My Higgins Jet Flo is going to be restored some day and it is in good condition with some rust and dents and stuff. I just like nice things. If you watch any of the large classic car auctions most of the cars are restored to perfection.


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## DonChristie (May 18, 2011)

It depends alot on the actual bike in question. My 41 Schwinn started off as a rusty frame, so I redid everything. My Iver Johnson was enough original to keep it that way, so I did. I like them both. Beauty _is_ in the eyes of the beholder!


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## slick (May 18, 2011)

The chrome bill on that X-53 is going to kill you unless you have connections with a chrome shop, but it will look awesome when done. Probably comparible pricing to chroming the front end of a 55 Cadillac?


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## Talewinds (May 18, 2011)

teisco said:


> My Higgins Jet Flo is going to be restored some day and it is in good condition with some rust and dents and stuff. I just like nice things. If you watch any of the large classic car auctions most of the cars are restored to perfection.




I watch the car auctions, and have had an unhealthy, lifelong addiction to cars. But what I perceive here as an in-congruency is that those old cars that have been restored to perfection started as cars in pretty lousy condition in MOST circumstances. Car guys have the same debates and conclude essentially the same thing: If a classic car is in "good" condition to begin with for God's sake don't touch it. It will be worth less both monetarily and intrinsically if it's restored. Frankly, when it comes to shopping for old cars I like to see nice paint, regardless of whether it's original or not, and you know that there are several brands out there that initially used paint and techniques that actually makes it kind of a drawback to have original paint, but then it's always the same question from discriminating car shoppers, "Is it original paint?" 
Believe me, I admire a good restoration, maybe we're just splitting hairs here as to exactly what point in an item's condition could it benefit from a resto.


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## redline1968 (May 18, 2011)

i like them both but when i restore them they have to be close to perfection and accurate to the last detail. i figure if i do it, i do it all the way or no way.  as for restoreing cars the restored always bring more money and i like them both way also; but, rust never sleeps and if i love the thing im going to do what ever it takes to save it. this ones is all new top to bottom  i did it all and i love it. however if it was a real nice original paint no rust i would keep it that way.


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## Larmo63 (May 19, 2011)

IT'S A BICYCLE!!!!! Do it however YOU like it. The other boys may sneer or talk behind your back, but don't worry. Mommy will have freshly baked, warm chocolate chip cookies for you when you get home.


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## IJamEcono (May 19, 2011)

I have no problem with those that choose to restore. It's none of my business what they do with their bikes. I've just always looked at it similar to people who have plastic surgery. They want to do it to hide those signs of aging, hence look (and feel?)  younger. Others don't want surgery, seeing beauty in the signs of aging.

I see beauty in the signs of aging.

I don't necessarily think the souls of bikes are stripped away by restoring. I think the souls fade and die by not being ridden.


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## kcrowe (May 19, 2011)

"Oh no!!!!!!!! You're painting that X-53!?!? That's the decision you came to? 
Face-palm."

 yea...decided to paint it.  I've got one bad rust spot on the front fender and if I do part, I think I need to do it all.  There is also some touch up paint done on the frame.


"The chrome bill on that X-53 is going to kill you unless you have connections with a chrome shop, but it will look awesome when done. Probably comparible pricing to chroming the front end of a 55 Cadillac?"

Yea, I haven't talked with the chrome guy yet, but I'm budgeting $1K for the entire project and hoping it'll come in less.


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## teisco (May 19, 2011)

Yeah there is a guy on Craigs List with one like yours completely restored and he is asking alot for it. My Jet Flo has a ton of chrome like your X 53 and I am looking for some really friendly chrome shop. I can do all painting myself and assembly but the chrome is the killer. 

There is one bike that I was supprised to see some restoration on. I was chatting with the guy from Memory Lane about his almost perfect original Schwinn Phantom and he said he had the fenders rechromed because they were not perfect. I  think I would have left them on that occasion.

Back to my point about not riding a really nice original,,,I sold my Monark that was almost pristine because I was afraid to take it out of the house. I then purchased a  restored bike and plan to ride that one.


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## kcrowe (May 19, 2011)

I've heard if you tell the chrome shop that you're willing to wait to have your parts done with another order it'll save you some money.  I'm not sure if thats true or not but I'll ask the question when I take it in.


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## redline1968 (May 19, 2011)

restore it its yours and you own it. i want some cookies no milk..


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## teisco (May 19, 2011)

Cookies sound good.


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## partsguy (May 19, 2011)

Going to bed soon, last day of school for me, a SENIOR, and yet....thanks to you guys I have a strange craving for cookies and milk!?


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## Carbon (May 20, 2011)

Being an auto paint tech by trade, I can't help but like fresh shine, I want to be able to look at the reflection of my teeth in the gloss of the frame and see chocolate chips wedged all in them.


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## Wayne Adam (May 20, 2011)

I have to go with the restored bike as first choice. I too am an older guy who restored classic cars for years, and I am also a professional artist.
Being an artist for my entire adult life, I like to restore my bikes to a level close to perfect and better than original. I am also able to hand paint original logos and lettering when in many cases decals cannot be found.
I don't do my restorations to be judged by anyone but me. 
I now have a good collection of bicycles. After restoring cars for over 35 years, I am burned out on cars, so bikes are a piece of cake. I will keep a couple of my 
bikes with the patina look, but certain ones in my opinion have to be restored like the 1950 Higgins Color Flow I just picked up.
Anyway, no one is right and no one is wrong. The vintage bikes look fine either way, it's whatever you personally like. The bottom line is that all of us collectors
are preserving an important piece of American history.


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## redline1968 (May 20, 2011)

i agree.


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## STUPIDILLO (May 24, 2011)

In rust we trust!!!!


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## slick (May 24, 2011)

As far as rechroming goes, the money is in the prep work not the dipping. If the parts are rusty and pitted, guess what, the guy holding that thing to the sander is going to be there awhile like a Taxi cab driver ringing up your bill while you have to stop for your coffee at the local starbucks and wait in that rediculously long line before you go to the airport, that's what costs a lot. My brother and I prefer to do all our own prep work that way we know that none of the character lines are not lost by some dufus sanding off too much as well as the nice embossed lettering on a brake arm which ALWAYS gets ground down too much and rounded off crisp stampings on the edges so it looks like a blur when it's done. Not kool. Just my .02


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## scrubbinrims (May 24, 2011)

The thing is that anybody can restore a bike or cut a check to have it done...doesn't make it wrong, but is why a restored bike will never be valued as much as a respectable untampered bicycle.
Behind my family, career, and our home, comes original paint bicycles... however I feel a rapture is upon us, I may rethink my priorities.
Personally, I look at condition of original paint above all else and I would rather have a nice specimen basic model versus a deluxe roughed up copy.
Components can always be pursued that are correct or nicer, but the core of the bicycle is absolutely, the most important factor in my decisions.
Chrome does not follow the same rules and keeping original chrome is a judgement call and not detracting either way.
There are always exceptions to the rule when it comes to the rarest, when ya gotta take what you can get.


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## slick (May 24, 2011)

I totally agree with you. Some bikes are just to hard to find with original paint though so you are stuck either restoring it or buying 1 restored. For example, how many Elgin Robins do you see with original paint? But a restored 1 popped up on ebay awhile back that didn't look half bad! Trust me, i'd much rather have original paint especially after riding with the Cyclone Coaster guys and drooling over their bikes with original paint. So from now on, that is what I strive for unless it's unobtainable within my price range in original condition.


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## Larmo63 (May 24, 2011)

The Cyclone guys are hard core rust riders, huh? That is one of the places that I first realized that everything doesn't have to be re-chromed and perfect. The funkier the better really. Some weird things show up to those rides! I love it!


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