# Repopping Badges.....new low



## bobcycles (Jul 29, 2015)

*Tho I've never been a fan of reproducing rare parts for bicycles,  the reproduction of badges is 
probably the lowest rung of the repop realm.   Now we have foreign manufacturers making vintage American bicycle badges in 
Indonesia?  


http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-Fly...947?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1a02bef9eb

There are two major issues with reproduction badges that I see.  
1  as we find out thanks to sites like Ebay, Image Saturation.   Badges that were were once extremely rare and sought after, become mundane
visual images seen daily on sites like ebay as the reproduction badges become as available a common commodity as something like an Electra bicycle or 'GT' tire, etc.  
We almost become imune to these once extremely rare plates as this 'image saturation' becomes common place.

2  the process of making these badges has become so 'exacting' that as with other 'too good' copies or forgeries...the line will and even 
Does get 'blurred' as the items change hands from one buyer to the next.  An artificially aged repop badge could very well screw someone
down the road, even unintentionally.   It's unfortunate that the original manufacturers aren't around today and can't take legal action against 
the reproduction of these iconic antique collectible artifacts.

.............The value of originals is also greatly diminished by the mass production of the cheaper copies.  There were several very rare Schwinn badges
for instance that at one time commanded very high prices and maintained high investment value.  Now that the repros of these badges are available
the value of the originals from what I have seen has been slashed to roughly 1/2.
Who condones this?



*


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## delgan (Jul 29, 2015)

Back when I was dealing in antiques in general, the same thing happened with depression glass. I finally just quit buying any glass ware as people were afraid it was a reproduction. Even knowing what was fake and what was real, people were turned off and the price dropped.


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## Djshakes (Jul 29, 2015)

I don't even look for badges anymore.  Of course I only collected Schwinn but they were all repop'd.  I think the only one that didn't was the rarest of the Rare "Lion" badge.  Bet your ass if they had an original it would have been popped.


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## ivrjhnsn (Jul 29, 2015)

So, what are your thoughts of Nostalgic Reflections? They've been doing badges for some time.

 I've made Iver cheese grater racks. ..

 Interesting topic.


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## cyclingday (Jul 29, 2015)

I also quit collecting badges for this exact reason. I don't mind picking up an original badge now and then, but they have no real monitary value to me anymore.

My thoughts on Nostalgic Reflections is that they are very good at what they do.


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## bricycle (Jul 29, 2015)

ivrjhnsn said:


> So, what are your thoughts of Nostalgic Reflections? They've been doing badges for some time.
> 
> I've made Iver cheese grater racks. ..
> 
> Interesting topic.




Love your racks!


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## TheSaint (Jul 29, 2015)

Too intense for the CABE


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## cyclingday (Jul 29, 2015)

Reproducing parts that are unattainable to complete or restore a bike is understandable. I have been very impressed and grateful by the fantastic work of the fabricators, but I have never understood the need to reproduce a headbadge.  
 The only reason that I can see, is that when a rare badge sells for $500, the thought is, that if they make some, then they too can cash in on that market. The problem is, that it's the antiquity that we are buying. A new badge made to replicate an old one has no interest to me at all.
 Especially when it's hard to tell the original from the replica.


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jul 29, 2015)

Just bought one of these and they are spot on!
They are acid etched and make an exact copy....


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## cyclingday (Jul 29, 2015)

GiovanniLiCalsi said:


> Just bought one of these and they are spot on!
> They are acid etched and make an exact copy....




This is where the thumbs down feature would have come in handy.


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## Andrew Gorman (Jul 29, 2015)

But with reproduction badges, any bike can be a Harley!  I haven't seen a Mission badge cheap enough for me and I live in the Mission.  I am not into wheeling and dealing so I think reproduction parts are a good thing. As far as anything having monetary value, look at beanie babies.


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## the tinker (Jul 29, 2015)

It's not just bicycle head-badges. Postage stamps,coins, autographs , Photos, art; posters. Every hobby and collection that one can think of is affected.
 I was at a 50s party and the host was extremely proud of his newly finished basement. It was done up really nice with every item displayed from the juke box to a "real" Schwinn. 1950s signs, toys the whole deal.
Every one there thought it was great, including my wife who has put up with me dragging old junk home for years. After listening to 50s music all evening coming from the juke box we left. On the ride home in our old Olds  convertible my wife commented how nice and "neat" their house was and how in our host's house  all his treasures were so organized unlike my junk collection. 
Bottom line here: most folks out there including my wife don't know a Walmart Schwinn from a original Phantom. One of the few items not original I own is a pedal car firetruck the wife bought me as a gift. She don't know why I am always so fussy about everything having to be original.  "Why can't you just enjoy it, instead of being so particular", she says.  
  And the 50's party we went to ........every last "collectible" was made in communist china including the music. 
A sad evening for the old tinker.   That's life.


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Jul 29, 2015)

I have bought and sold antiques for many years. It's very disappointing to go into an "antiques mall" and see so much new junk...
There are very few real antiques stores out there.


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## SirMike1983 (Jul 29, 2015)

I don't have an objection to reproductions sold as such, especially if it's a part you need to complete the project and you just aren't going to find an original that fits the bill. My main complaints about reproductions are getting a quality that matches what you are looking for. I've bought sets of reproductions handlebar grips, some very faithful to the originals, with no qualms. I've used reproduction blocks on original pedals because I want a sure grip when I ride a bike. If I needed a particular badge and reproduction was a viable option, I would buy one. To me, this is about completing a project as I see fit and good reproductions (as opposed to the really cheesy junk that sometimes surfaces) can be a part of it, assuming it fits with the presentation of the bike I'm going for.

I do object to a person selling a reproduction as a counterfeit original and committing fraud. But I hold that against the person who perpetrates the fraud more than the person who produced the reproduction and sold it honestly as a repro.

It's somewhat ironic that many of the collectors who complain about reproductions (especially good ones) are the same ones who helped drive up the original prices, thus leading to the very reproductions they dislike.


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## sleepy (Jul 29, 2015)

This is a big reason why I love going to Greenfield Village in Dearborn, MI every chance I get. Pure period authenticity of everything there, right down to their fleet of original Model T's that one can ride in around the village.


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## Flat Tire (Jul 29, 2015)

Give it another 10 years and most bikes for sale at swap meets will have reproduction parts on 'em, and no one will ever know. Heck its already happening.


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## charnleybob (Jul 29, 2015)

It's gotten so bad I saw a "Cafaro" badge floating around.


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## NewOrleansFlyer (Jul 29, 2015)

I make headbadges.  I acid etch them, and I can put a pretty good patina on a badge.  I do all original work.  I don't do re-pops.  I guess I could....but as someone already pointed out, it is the history that makes the originals valuable.
I've been casting Monark insignia badges recently in resin.  I like the challenge of learning a new process, and of making something I can use on my bikes.  Sometimes friends ask for one....more as a bit to add to the collection of bike oddities.  I have not sold them here, or online, but if someone wanted one, I'd be hard pressed to deny a fellow bicycle enthusiast.
Recently, I finally pulled the trigger on a Monark train light...$100 just for the train, no guts.  I plan to 3D scan it into a file and try to 3D print it.  I know there are repops out there, ( I'm watching one obut I'd like to give it a try.  Will I put one or two on my bikes....probably.  Will I ever sell them as anything as repops...nope.  Same goes for the Jet emblem and the cheese grater.  
It will be nice to see my bikes looking more complete...but I don't intend to flood the collector's market with re-pops...and I don't think you can.  There will always be the original.....and sellers should know that buyers CAN tell the difference.  People don't want a copy of something, they want the thing.  I have quite a few replica coins from a visit to DC.  They look great in the small frames on the wall, but a numismatist would spot them as copies in a flash.  Has the availability of these replica coins made a dent in the value or prices of the real deal....uh....nope. 


http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-Fly...947?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1a02bef9eb

There are two major issues with reproduction badges that I see.  
1  as we find out thanks to sites like Ebay, Image Saturation.   Badges that were were once extremely rare and sought after, become mundane
visual images seen daily on sites like ebay as the reproduction badges become as available a common commodity as something like an Electra bicycle or 'GT' tire, etc.  
We almost become imune to these once extremely rare plates as this 'image saturation' becomes common place.

2  the process of making these badges has become so 'exacting' that as with other 'too good' copies or forgeries...the line will and even 
Does get 'blurred' as the items change hands from one buyer to the next.  An artificially aged repop badge could very well screw someone
down the road, even unintentionally.   It's unfortunate that the original manufacturers aren't around today and can't take legal action against 
the reproduction of these iconic antique collectible artifacts.

.............The value of originals is also greatly diminished by the mass production of the cheaper copies.  There were several very rare Schwinn badges
for instance that at one time commanded very high prices and maintained high investment value.  Now that the repros of these badges are available
the value of the originals from what I have seen has been slashed to roughly 1/2.
Who condones this?



[/B][/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE]


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## WES PINCHOT (Jul 29, 2015)

*Repopping Badges*

I agree with bob!
If it looks too good to be nos original,
it probably is not.

I have learned the hard way once by
getting taken with a nos badge that 
was a repop.

I was overwhelmed when at mlc,
to see racks and racks of repros
by a vendor!

I would prefer an original badges with
some patina from a reputable seller.


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## Shawn Michael (Jul 29, 2015)

I would be happy to buy a reprop badge if it is affordable and would complete my project. I won't spend an arm and a leg when I don't have that much into a project nor do I have the deep pockets to do so. If they do quality work then more power to them. If it's crap then people wont buy it. Can someone please get me a Schwinn CT badge for $25. Thanks, Shawn


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Jul 30, 2015)

I want original. ... keep yer repop crap... 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Dale Alan (Jul 30, 2015)

I feel something is better than nothing.I see no problem with a reproduction as long as a person is not a liar or a thief and misrepresents it for financial gain.Also,if folks did not collect these badges like trophies we would not be having this discussion.Greedy materialistic collectors drive the prices up so these badges are in demand,easy money for someone so they get stripped from their proper home and then the same people collecting them bitch about repops which is easy to do when you already own the original . I see no problem removing a badge from a trashed frame heading to the scrapyard,but I very rarely see a frame without some potential of saving. Just my opinion of course.


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## MrColumbia (Jul 30, 2015)

The odd thing about the reproduction Westfield "Clipper" badge in the original post is there are lots of them out there that are genuine N.O.S. Generally they sell for less than the $25 asking price of the repop so I fail to see why anyone would purchase one. 

 That being said, I agree with most of the comments here that these hurt the value both monetarily and ascetically of the originals. I have plenty of Westfield badges from that era of all types of names they used, many are N.O.S. and every time one is reproduced it does take away from them. The fun of badge collecting for me is in the "hunt" for a Westfield badge that I don't have. If I don't have one and a reproduce one comes on the market it will not be something  that I want. It's like buying a picture of the bike you want and not getting the actual bike. 

 From the standpoint of reproducing them to finish a restoration....I don't buy it! Use the badge that the bike came with. If it is missing a badge then how does one come the the conclusion that it had a "Clipper" badge over any of the other thousands of badges Westfield used. There are plenty of original badges out there to use. 

 All my opinions of course, others may have different ones but the _Genie is out of the bottle_ so to speak so now we all have to deal with it.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Here's the badge I want but it needs to be original. I just couldn't see putting a repo badge on an original bike. V/r Shawn


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## the tinker (Jul 30, 2015)

Couple months back I bought a badge sight unseen from a friend of mine in a different state. When I got it I must admit it was beautiful . It was the Colson "fleetwood" archer badge.  The original Colson I had was missing It's badge but I could clearly see in the faded paint the "clipped corners" on the headtube  of the missing original badge. The re pop badge fit perfectly and looked much too nice for my ratty Colson.
I thought I was getting an original head badge. Now I have a copy. I didn't want to make a big deal about it, as my pal honestly thought I would love this perfect looking badge. So.... I nailed the badge to the south side of my house to "age" it for the summer in the sun and rain. In a later conversation I told my Friend what I did to his perfect badge.  He mailed me an original worn badge last week and I sent him the new archer badge back on saturday.  I like the crusty original better!


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## catfish (Jul 30, 2015)

Djshakes said:


> I don't even look for badges anymore.  Of course I only collected Schwinn but they were all repop'd.  I think the only one that didn't was the rarest of the Rare "Lion" badge.  Bet your ass if they had an original it would have been popped.




One of the main reasons I sold off my Schwinn head badges, was that they were getting re poped. And I had the Lion badge.


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## catfish (Jul 30, 2015)

Flat Tire said:


> Give it another 10 years and most bikes for sale at swap meets will have reproduction parts on 'em, and no one will ever know. Heck its already happening.




Don,     This happened more than 20 years ago. There are a lot of long time, big money collectors who have died off, and their collections have been sold off. A lot of the restored bikes have repoed parts that no one knows about...... One of the main reasons I only have original bikes in my collection.    Catfish


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## MrColumbia (Jul 30, 2015)

catfish said:


> One of the main reasons I sold off my Schwinn head badges, was that thew were getting re poped. And I had the Lion badge.




Now that Westfield badges are getting reproduced are you going to sell all your mint originals cheap? LOL


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## morton (Jul 30, 2015)

*Agreed*



Dale Alan said:


> I see no problem removing a badge from a trashed frame heading to the scrapyard,but I very rarely see a frame without some potential of saving. Just my opinion of course.




Although not as outrageous or disgusting, stipping a badge off a rebuildable wreck reminds me of the poachers who kill an elephant or rhino for the tusk and leave the rest to rot.


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## catfish (Jul 30, 2015)

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> I want original. ... keep yer repop crap...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




I'm with you! I will not have repoped badges in my collection.


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## catfish (Jul 30, 2015)

MrColumbia said:


> Now that Westfield badges are getting reproduced are you going to sell all your mint originals cheap? LOL





Never! Those are here to stay. And the repops I have seen are poor copies. IMO.   Catfish


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## bricycle (Jul 30, 2015)

It's really very Simple..... Demand is causing repops to be made. Why is there demand? because folks are collecting original badges. Collectors are actually creating their own problems. Is collecting good for the hobby? Yes and no. Yes because these original badges MAY have otherwise been destroyed, and it's a neat aspect of the hobby, and No, because thes frames have no badges which everyone wants on their bikes, and this encourages re-popping. Can't win for los'n.


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## MrColumbia (Jul 30, 2015)

bricycle said:


> It's really very Simple..... Demand is causing repops to be made. Why is there demand? because folks are collecting original badges. Collectors are actually creating their own problems. Is collecting good for the hobby? Yes and no. Yes because these original badges MAY have otherwise been destroyed, and it's a neat aspect of the hobby, and No, because thes frames have no badges which everyone wants on their bikes, and this encourages re-popping. Can't win for los'n.




Is this like a natural history museum collecting samples of endangered animals before they go extinct to be preserved for future generations only to cause the very extinction they fear?


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## bricycle (Jul 30, 2015)

here's another.... look with the enlargement, the paint is already flaking off...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-EAR...21690185640?hash=item1c554cdfa8#ht_608wt_1105


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## bobcycles (Jul 30, 2015)

*Ok and the key here is "if the person is not a liar or thief and misrepresents........"  No one can predict how the story 
goes as these badges change hands over the years.  I know people who have been burned on repro badges and repro fender bombs......  On and on it 
goes and the point I was trying to nail home is......simply HAVING these items in our universe has and will create problems down the road.
We collect ANTIQUES........not replicas or forgeries.  When an item is passed off as an original, yet turns out to be repro?  That my friends is 
FORGERY defined.   The lines get 'blurred' and you have to face facts that it does happen and most likely will happen more often down the road.
Personally I would never put a repro badge on a bike I owned or was trying to sell.  But then, I'm a "vintage" bicycle collector.
As for "greedy" and 'materialistic'..........sadly........if you collect any "object" for it's inherent value ....that is a materialistic pursuit.
Greed doesn't make a rare headbadge valuable,  it's scarcity does and demand for the item.  And this is a hobby where the items we collect
DO have somewhat of a known 'market value'.  *





Dale Alan said:


> I feel something is better than nothing.I see no problem with a reproduction as long as a person is not a liar or a thief and misrepresents it for financial gain.Also,if folks did not collect these badges like trophies we would not be having this discussion.Greedy materialistic collectors drive the prices up so these badges are in demand,easy money for someone so they get stripped from their proper home and then the same people collecting them bitch about repops which is easy to do when you already own the original . I see no problem removing a badge from a trashed frame heading to the scrapyard,but I very rarely see a frame without some potential of saving. Just my opinion of course.


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## bobcycles (Jul 30, 2015)

*Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Jerry Turner (nostalic ref) started out as a badge 'restorer' and has only recently started 
reproducing bicycle plates?  I've seen his work and he is a remarkable craftsman for sure and has mastered the art.  But again, that's the scary part, making an 
item look so good that it can't be distinguished from the original.  It's a free market to be sure and he is certainly at the top of the game there.  Good or bad?
My opinion?... would be best for the bike hobby if he simply 'restored' original badges rather than remaking them.  But that's my opinion.

*


ivrjhnsn said:


> So, what are your thoughts of Nostalgic Reflections? They've been doing badges for some time.
> 
> I've made Iver cheese grater racks. ..
> 
> Interesting topic.


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## cyclingday (Jul 30, 2015)

bobcycles said:


> *Ok and the key here is "if the person is not a liar or thief and misrepresents........"  No one can predict how the story
> goes as these badges change hands over the years.  I know people who have been burned on repro badges and repro fender bombs......  On and on it
> goes and the point I was trying to nail home is......simply HAVING these items in our universe has and will create problems down the road.
> We collect ANTIQUES........not replicas or forgeries.  When an item is passed off as an original, yet turns out to be repro?  That my friends is
> ...




I wish I could give this post a hundred thumbs up.
The bold type pretty much says it all.


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## bike (Jul 30, 2015)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENJOY-COCAI...OCA-FUNNY-LOGO-SIGN-PIN-AD-COKE-/111664390205


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## Evans200 (Jul 30, 2015)

The way I see it bike parts are meant to be on a bike, not on a wall or in a showcase. That's not to say that I'm against collectors, but each one or those badges in your collection represents a bike out there without it's most important part: IT'S IDENTITY. A very nice badge in your collection probably came off a very nice bike. And how many of those bikes that could have or should have been saved and preserved weren't because somebody somewhere passed on the deal with no head badge present. It's like a hood ornament on a classic car. Many collectors of those as well. And for years many of those hood ornaments have been repoped, and I doubt if the repops made the originals worth less. And if the repoped head badge is perfectly done, then kudos to the maker for a great job. He wouldn't be making that part if the demand wasn't there. And the demand is simply due to a lack of AVAILABLE originals, i.e the ones in the showcase or on the wall that AREN'T for sale.


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## hoofhearted (Jul 30, 2015)

Evans200 said:


> The way I see it bike parts are meant to be on a bike, not on a wall or in a showcase. That's not to say that I'm against collectors, but each one or those badges in your collection represents a bike out there without it's most important part: IT'S IDENTITY. A very nice badge in your collection probably came off a very nice bike. And how many of those bikes that could have or should have been saved and preserved weren't because somebody somewhere passed on the deal with no head badge present. It's like a hood ornament on a classic car. ... *continuing ...* And the demand is simply due to a lack of AVAILABLE originals, i.e the ones in the showcase or on the wall that AREN'T for sale.





*Evans200 ... As a hardcore collector of exotic, American bicycle badges .. i do 
understand your thinking -- although i don't understand your shoulding. 

In past years, I have purchased the entire bicycle, just to have the badge in 
my collection.  When it's time for the bicycle to go down the road .. the badge
rides along.  

The badges in my collection are either new, old-stock .. or used.  That's how i 
bought or traded for them.

When i acquire a badge, the cost of that badge (to me) is written in permanent
marker .. on the backside.  This gives me a record of what i paid .. and this also 
tells me the selling-price -- should a fellow-collector have a need.

Every single badge i own is purchasable .. for the price indicated on the backside ..
plus shipping.*

Lemme know what badge(s) you need ....... thanks ....


....... patric


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## NewOrleansFlyer (Jul 30, 2015)

But clearly advertised as a re-pop.


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## TheSaint (Jul 30, 2015)

d.      g.     lame


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## T-Mar (Jul 31, 2015)

Though I've never bought a reproduction badge, like many others I have no problems with them, provided they are advertised as such. However, I feel that the people manufacturing them should go one step further, if they are not already doing so. They need to mark them as reproductions on the back, using a tamperproof method. This will prevent flippers from representing them as originals and ensure that potential buyers know exactly what they are getting. This is standard practice in many other hobbies, to prevent misrepresentation of reproductions, and should be adopted in our hobby.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 31, 2015)

I know Nostalgic Reflections (Jerry Turner) used to mark his on back but I don't believe it was tamper proof. I looked at a lot of his badges at aMLC earlier this year and didn't see the markings. V/r Shawn


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## Gasbag (Jul 31, 2015)

The same thing has been happening for many years with classic automobiles. Countless counterfeit muscle cars have been built from plain Jane beaters by the addition of repop badges. At the same time, many valuable muscle cars have been brought back to life thanks to the aftermarket. PT Barnum was a wise man

Me myself will walk past a whole row of shiny 1969 396 SS Camaros to gawk at the well used crusty one at the end of the row.


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## tommydale1950 (Jul 31, 2015)

hoofhearted said:


> *Evans200 ... As a hardcore collector of exotic, American bicycle badges .. i do
> understand your thinking -- although i don't understand your shoulding.
> 
> In past years, I have purchased the entire bicycle, just to have the badge in
> ...




Emblem? Sister Mary Felix said to ask you ...Tom


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## hoofhearted (Aug 19, 2015)

tommydale1950 said:


> Emblem? Sister Mary Felix said to ask you ...Tom





*Only one i have is on an early 24''-wheel racer ... it's the larger badge ... sorry, tommydale1950.*


........... patric


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