# "No Hands" Is A Great Book About The Rise And Fall Of Schwinn.



## Goldenrod (Jun 8, 2022)

I know that we have mentioned it before but new people are being added each day.  It is also the story of America.  Try getting a copy on Amazon.  Oops.  I just looked. $165.  Try your local library.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 8, 2022)

I scored one off eBay a few months ago for less than $20 shipped. V/r Shawn


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## SirMike1983 (Jun 8, 2022)

Got mine on eBay about 5 years ago after I read the shorter Crane's articles that spawned the booked. The book is a surprisingly entertaining read for a business-related one, but I think it's a little heavy-handed vilifying some of the people involved in the company and somewhat glosses over the broader economic forces at work in the demise of the company. The period from the energy crises through the early 90s were kind of malaise era in American industry overall. It hit the automotive industry hard as well, including companies with bigger markets and reserves than Schwinn had.


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## SchwinnFinn63 (Jun 8, 2022)

Can’t believe I’ve never read this book.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 8, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> Got mine on eBay about 5 years ago after I read the shorter Crane's articles that spawned the booked. The book is a surprisingly entertaining read for a business-related one, but I think it's a little heavy-handed vilifying some of the people involved in the company and somewhat glosses over the broader economic forces at work in the demise of the company. The period from the energy crises through the early 90s were kind of malaise era in American industry overall. It hit the automotive industry hard as well, including companies with bigger markets and reserves than Schwinn had.



I agree with your synopsis and was a little put off by that. It seemed like they had an axe to grind with the Schwinn family. V/r Shawn


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## Xlobsterman (Jun 8, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> Got mine on eBay about 5 years ago after I read the shorter Crane's articles that spawned the booked. The book is a surprisingly entertaining read for a business-related one, but I think it's a little heavy-handed vilifying some of the people involved in the company and somewhat glosses over the broader economic forces at work in the demise of the company. The period from the energy crises through the early 90s were kind of malaise era in American industry overall. It hit the automotive industry hard as well, including companies with bigger markets and reserves than Schwinn had.




I haven't read the book, but I did work at a shop until the early 80's during the labor strike, and shortly after it was settled. IMO, this was the tipping point of Schwinn going towards their final bankruptcy?

Here is a good video that is related to the topic:


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## SirMike1983 (Jun 8, 2022)

Unionization, rising domestic costs, aging plant, and aging technology were important. That business about not investing in mountain bikes, maybe it played a role, but the role is over-stated in that video. I get the point he is making, but the issues were broader and deeper than resisting the mountain biking trend, even playing a part as that decision did.

Marc Muller's article on electroforged Schwinns points out the deeper problem: that years earlier, in the early 1970s, Schwinn was at a point where it needed to consider the next phase of frame manufacturing. It held onto the aging electroforge welding of thick-walled steel pipe model at a time when the market was shifting more and more to lugged frames and eventually materials like aluminum alloys.



> Schwinn's fall from favor was both ironic and financially devastating. In the late sixties Schwinn invested heavily in the E/F machinery--machinery vastly more expensive to build and operate than required by lug frame fabricators. During the bike boom years Schwinn was building more than a million E/F frames and bicycles every year. At the same time, though, Schwinn revived one of its old trade names and began to import the "World" line of lugged frame bicycles from National and Bridgestone of Japan rather than build them in their own Chicago plant. [Note: Between 1971 and 1979, Bridgestone built almost 1 million bikes for Schwinn--about 4.5 times the number of bikes Bridgestone-Japan built in during the Bridgestone years of 1984-1994--Grant Petersen]. This, or course, only enhanced the reputation of the lugged frame and speeded the demise of the E/F frame. Schwinn didn't start making its own lugged frames until the late seventies.





> I am often asked if the E/F frames could have been updated and continued in production. Marketing issues aside, I believe great advances could have been made, but the necessary metallurgical advances, namely the HSLA (high strength, low alloy; Nivachrome is an example) family of steels, came too late. These steels emerged from the auto industry in the late 1970's as car makers tried to reduce weight and increase strength to comply with federal mileage, emission, and safety standards. HSLA steels combine properties that before had been seemingly mutually exclusive. They're far stronger than the 1010 grade steels used in E/F frames, and they maintain their high elongation (meaning, they don't become brittle), so they're ideal for stampings, while their low-enough carbon content assures excellent weldability. The unique combination of high strength, high elongation, and excellent weldability would have allowed the stamping operations of the head and bottom bracket shells, and been well suited for E/F. The result would have been truly significant weight savings. Combined with a built-in aluminum kickstand, (which was a project under consideration at Schwinn) and a three piece crank, how does a sub thirty pound Varsity sound? (With more aluminum parts it could have weighed twenty-four.)
> 
> 
> These changes were not to be, however.




Add to that the overall economic malaise, rising labor/materials/energy costs of the era, unionization debacle, and it's a bigger problem than mountain bikes or Ed Schwinn Jr. making mistakes. The process of setting Schwinn up for longer-term success probably needed to begin back in the late 1960s or at least the early 70s, but to do so would have required predicting the economic distress of the Ford and Carter years, something that would have needed a powerful crystal ball.


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## Xlobsterman (Jun 8, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> Unionization, rising domestic costs, aging plant, and aging technology were important. That business about not investing in mountain bikes, maybe it played a role, but the role is over-stated in that video. I get the point he is making, but the issues were broader and deeper than resisting the mountain biking trend, even playing a part as that decision did.
> 
> Marc Muller's article on electroforged Schwinns points out the deeper problem: that years earlier, in the early 1970s, Schwinn was at a point where it needed to consider the next phase of frame manufacturing. It held onto the aging electroforge welding of thick-walled steel pipe model at a time when the market was shifting more and more to lugged frames and eventually materials like aluminum alloys.
> 
> ...




Considering Mountain Bikes evolved into the world wide billion dollar industry it is today, I would say it was more than one of the nails in the Schwinn coffin!

But as we all now know there were many factors in Schwinn's demise. I was just glad to be an actual part of the Schwinn "Chicago Years" history with my time working at a Schwinn Dealer!


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## drglinski (Jun 8, 2022)

I have it.   Excellent read.  Sad to see the demise of what happened.


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## 1817cent (Jun 8, 2022)

Good read.  It covers the complete history of the company; the good, the bad and the ugly.  It would be a good text to use in business schools.


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## mrg (Jun 8, 2022)

Sounds like a good read but!, one fool is even trying to sell one for $695., ya I'll go to the library!


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## Goldenrod (Jun 9, 2022)

The 100% guarantee worked against them when the trend was lighter-throw-away started but like many American products like Carousels, Whizzers, Coke signs these bikes are a gift to those who like to collect examples of products from when American innovation reigned and people worked with pride.


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## Xlobsterman (Jun 9, 2022)

Goldenrod said:


> The 100% guarantee worked against them when the trend was lighter-throw-away started but like many American products like Carousels, Whizzers, Coke signs these bikes are a gift to those who like to collect examples of products from when American innovation reigned and people worked with pride.




YES, it became no longer profitable to make products that last a "LIFETIME" we have now evolved into a world where everything is designed to only last a limited time, then gets throw away, and you then buy another one!


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## Freqman1 (Jun 9, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> YES, it became no longer profitable to make products that last a "LIFETIME" we have now evolved into a world where everything is designed to only last a limited time, then gets throw away, and you then buy another one!



Planned obsolescence!


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## J-wagon (Jun 9, 2022)

I tried library request but no copies exist in any of 33 branches San Bernardino County libraries. Maybe I'll ask them to add.


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 9, 2022)

Libraries are not the repositories they used to be- any book that hasn't been checked out in a year or two, or was published more than X years ago routinely gets tossed.


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## SchwinnFinn63 (Jun 9, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> YES, it became no longer profitable to make products that last a "LIFETIME" we have now evolved into a world where everything is designed to only last a limited time, then gets throw away, and you then buy another one!




It’s even worse then that! Whole bikes are still good but it’s one part that is obsolete after just one year. You then must buy a( new wheel just to get the upgraded axle ) example.


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## Xlobsterman (Jun 10, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Planned obsolescence!




YES, people have now been trained to "CONSUME" and love to keep spending money on the latest and greatest trend or fad, but hate to spend money on the required necessities of life. For example: I am in the heating business, and I get into peoples homes to service their heating systems. When I tell them their 30 year old furnace needs to be replaced, they tell me it is not in the budget right now when they are living in a $500,000 house, have 2 new vehicles in the driveway, multiple HUGE TV's bolted to the walls in the house, and the latest $1000 iPhone in their hand......................LOL


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Jun 11, 2022)

Xlobsterman said:


> keep spending money on the latest and greatest trend or fad, but hate to spend money the required necessities of life.



That is so true.


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## Lookn4bikes (Jun 11, 2022)

Just picked up a copy from the local Library. Hope it's not a snoozer.


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## J-wagon (Jun 11, 2022)

Submitted a purchase request to my county library. Will find out in a week if approved. 🤞


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## Les (Jun 12, 2022)

Hi,

The No Hands book would be useful to read but for me the cost is immense as postage puts it up to over $NZD 1000.

I bought my frame/forks only on Ebay and imported it to New Zealand and started restoration.

There are a few aspects of this Schwinn frame to consider although by the serial number is considered to be a 1981 by the SN BSnnnnnn stamped to the underside of the BB

Firstly I considered the Serial number for these frames to be based on the Chicago Schwinn format established in 1965. Serial numbers are legally recognised for cycle identification.

When I checked my frame number at the time of buying it with the Schwinn Look up Tool site it was identified as February 1981. The completion date of the frame is given as a 4 digit number on the head badge. These frames where refuted to be sold as frame/fork only to those interested in a Mountain Bike frame and where not completed by Schwinn thus they did not receive a 4 digit completion date on the head badge.

In the speech given in this forum page it is stated that 3 Schwinn suits met with Gary Fisher, when did that happen, what year? In my distant view Schwinn did not sell MTB`s in the 1980`s, only ATB`s. I have referred to The Birth of Dirt by Frank J Berto and Fat Tire Flyer by Charlie Kelly, both interesting reads but no mention of a meeting with Schwinn suits. This was due to a Company called Mountainbikes own by Fisher and Kelly thus they attempted to sue anybody who used the name Mountainbikes by any derivative. Not even Tom Richey who made frames for Mountainbikes could use the name in the USA although he did use it in Canada. Neither could other established manufacturers who made the first MTB frames in the 1970`s having been connected with Marin County could not use the name so thus it is very clear that Schwinn would not use MTB but ATB during the 1980`s. As is said often Schwinn never made MTB`s but from 1981 they sold Schwinn King Sting with serial number starting ASnnnnnn. I have seen a 1981 Schwinn Owners Operating ATB catalogue listing refers to King Sting 10, King Sting 5, King Sting, Side Winder 10, Side Winder 5, and Side Winder all 1981 models all advertised as All Terrain Bikes.

This same Schwinn Owners Operating ATB catalogue hand notes a Side Winder as SW1-9 GT502951 (July 1982 start) with a final completion date of 266 82

In respect to the 1981 frame in question the following information is provided

• Notes in the Schwinn Bicycles book as written on page 147 by Jay Pridmore and Jim Hurd “The Schwinn parts Division brought in some lugged mountain bike frames from Japan. But mostly Schwinn was leaving the new market to others. By 1984, the company came out with some higher performing mountain bikes, including the Sierra, also built in Asia”. Jay Pridmore is a professional writer but Jim Hurd was a respected Schwinn historian and director of the Schwinn Cycle museum in Chicago. I did try to contact Jim Hurd prior to his passing to no avail, I trust somebody else on the Cabe web site may know a little more about Jim Hurd.

• Reference has been made the 1981 version were sold as frame/fork setup only by the BMX parts department on Forum pages. I think my frame/forks are one of this product one of 9 at least I have seen. More explanation on this comment is needed, a contact with either of the authors would be appreciated. One of the frames, the same as mine is decaled made in Japan.

• Serial numbers for my frame Schwinn BS367823 and another frame being CS472494 and a few others similarly are stamped to the underside of the BB. This is not the prescribed location for Schwinn to stamped for this time period but in the recognised form of LLNNNNNN. The underside of the BB is a place that frames made in Japan can be located. I realise the Serial number marks the date of the frame production, not the selling date and whether the build was completed around the time is uncertain. I have been told by a Schwinn collector that he has seen a 4 year delay in selling a Schwinn cycle as new from its serial number to the final completion number. Schwinn Chicago production did stop in 1983. Most other frames do not have the SN and a final completion number as Schwinn did.

• The prescribed serial number layout for Japanese made frames and location is different for Schwinn US for this time period. The Japanese manufacturer of these frames is not known, but the tubing is Ishiwata, pre 1980. The head tube on my frame is a Schwinn Chicago badge, the factory closed in 1983 but the badge seems to also appear on until 1985 and 86 that I have been told Schwinn continued to use, although the factory had closed. It is also commented the forks originally came with a Unicrown fork much as a Tange TX1200 that is reported to have broken and then all were replaced with a cast fork crown of unknown manufacture and all the frames sold and in stock were replaced.

• These 2 serial numbers, BS367823 and CS472494 do fit an order of being made in 2 consecutive months by letter. They are also within the production number range of Schwinn cycles produced for the 2 consecutive months, not one of these months nor 3 months. I have no doubt they are correct. I have had one Ex Schwinn employee confirm the serial numbers are correct.

• Ishiwata tubing, steerer tube stamping on frame BS367823 is ISHIWATA 3.B. The Ishiwata catologue of pre 1980 includes the frame tubing produced as the MTB range. This type of tubing does not appear to in the post 1980 catalogue. By comparative measuring of my frame tubing, BS367823, it appears to be the Pre 1979 type Ishiwata MTB tubing. The 2 catalogues are not dated exactly but referred to a late 70`s and early 80`s.

• As an aside, Ishiwata being a pre WW2 company, this dating, 3.B, could be as per Japanese Imperial (Showa) calendar that 3 could represent 53rd year thus the date could be 1978 in the Julian calendar, I am trying to confirm this may be the case. This could be lost in translation and history. If the dating represents 1983 for the tubing the Ishiwata the dating could not be later than the frame manufacture start. The frame and fork I have do appear to be of the same time.

• The fork crown is unusual but is similar to what is used on a number of Japanese manufactured MTB frames of the period and also shows on the Trek 1983 850. My comparisons of fork tubing sizes from Ishiwata and Tange record they are different sizes and thus the actual fork crowns may not actually be the same production or time period. A photo I have seen of one of an imported Rocky Mountain Bicycles Ritchey MTB has the same distinctive faux bi-plane fork crowns as my Schwinn frame and the others above. The origin of these fork crowns may be separate to both Ishiwata and Tange but combined with both. I have tried to establish if Ishiwata used the Japanese Imprerial calendar that would use a number 4 for 1981.

• A 1983 Schwinn BMX catalogue page shows the frame being the same as BS367823 referring to the forks as Unifork Tange 141 fork set but BS367823 frame is clearly stamped as Ishiwata. I have not located details to Tange 141 forks but as I say above, may not be the same as the 1983 Tange fork blades that are not the same size as the Ishiwata fork blades.

This catalogue page clearly shows these frames, as my frame is, being different to other Schwinn ATB Sierra frames, King Sting frames, Sidewinder Cruiser frames of the period.

• It is to be considered the 1983 advertising of the frames put to print in 1982 could be the only time they were advertised from 1981, maybe a clearing out of old stock for a closed factory.

• The link to the Schwinn Parts and BMX departments is clearly staed and thus it is point to be clarified even if possible now. Also the comments by Jay Pridmore and Jim Hurd are very relevant.

• The SN is to me clearly the Schwinn US number and not a Japanese manufacturers SN number. Some commentators have drawn attention to the location of the number on the frame as not being the correct location for a US number and the particular letters and numbers indicate a date but they ignore the other letter and numbers. There has been a reference to the Asian Serial Number Guide but I question it being correct as the ASNG for the format used does not align with the Schwinn format as it I have seen ISnnnnnn being an ASNG number. I suspect Schwinn would not use a formatted number in 1983/4 that they had use in previous years due to the legality of serial numbers system. A contact with Bianche, Italy could not clarify the meaning of the ASNG nor could they name the Asian manufacturer. The ASNG writers does state they have no knowledge of what USA manufacturers used as Serial Number format and in my view the Schwinn 1981 legal format of MSnnnnnn does visually match the ASNG but the meaning is not the same.

• The SN found have been commented on representing many thousands of frames made using the ASNG number where the first number represents the year made whereas the Schwinn format indicates only a few months of 1981 manufacturing therefore lesser numbers made and allocated to ATB frames. If the number is taken as a Schwinn number there will be considerable gaps for other Schwinn frames, eg BMX, childrens bikes, road bikes etc filling in the gaps. There are not many of these frames about.

• I have measured and drawn my frame consider it very similar to a 1980 Beezer Off Road Bicycle frame that could have been copied by Schwinn. Or in fact any pre 1981 MTB frame.

• I have also compared my frame to a Specialised Stumpjumper, second series frame that mine is comparable with.

• Refer to this site

http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/anybody-able-id-schwinn-frameset-69338.html

These frames are not common, even in 1981, and anybody with Schwinn could add clarification.

Is there anybody on The Cabe site who has a little 1981 knowledge. 

Regards
Les


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## J-wagon (Jun 12, 2022)

Les said:


> A 1983 Schwinn BMX catalogue page shows the frame being the same as BS367823



Interesting. Pic of catalog page frame only part 29-266 or 29-265, hard to read. Perhaps your BSxxxxx stamped serial is old stock BB (made for other model 1981) but used in 1983 to build that early mtb frame offering.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 12, 2022)

Les said:


> Hi,
> 
> The No Hands book would be useful to read but for me the cost is immense as postage puts it up to over $NZD 1000.
> 
> ...



Just curious what this has to do with the book that was being discussed?


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## Les (Jun 12, 2022)

J-Wagon, 
By the serial number why would Schwinn issue an identical number that was issued in 1981 (correct by the Schwinn established format) again in 1983, would this not breach legalities. The advertising in 1983 was the earliest time but they where apparently sold by Schwinn sale reps when first issued in 1981, after that they became old stock to clear when the Chicago factory closed.
What I wish to do is get more information.
Freqman,
Yes it has a more to do with the video shown that supports the book?  but more to do with not repeating the incorrect statement that Schwinn did not value MTB when they used ATB for the same type of bike. By Fisher/Kelly threats to sue for using MTB name would have been sufficient for Schwinn not to use it. Even Tom Ritchey who was making frames for Fisher/Kelly Mountainbikes did not use MTB. Nor did many other bike makers who had prior to 1980 made MTB`s. Fisher/Kelly invented the name Mountainbikes and in doing so claimed rights to the name that Schwinn did not want to answer to. "Bicycling" magazine established it was not suitable name to use, ATB was and that is what Schwinn issued from 1980.


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## Xlobsterman (Jun 13, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Just curious what this has to do with the book that was being discussed?




I agree, a bit off topic. It would be better in the MTB forum.


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## Xlobsterman (Jun 13, 2022)

Les said:


> J-Wagon,
> By the serial number why would Schwinn issue an identical number that was issued in 1981 (correct by the Schwinn established format) again in 1983, would this not breach legalities. The advertising in 1983 was the earliest time but they where apparently sold by Schwinn sale reps when first issued in 1981, after that they became old stock to clear when the Chicago factory closed.
> What I wish to do is get more information.
> Freqman,
> Yes it has a more to do with the video shown that supports the book?  but more to do with not repeating the incorrect statement that Schwinn did not value MTB when they used ATB for the same type of bike. By Fisher/Kelly threats to sue for using MTB name would have been sufficient for Schwinn not to use it. Even Tom Ritchey who was making frames for Fisher/Kelly Mountainbikes did not use MTB. Nor did many other bike makers who had prior to 1980 made MTB`s. Fisher/Kelly invented the name Mountainbikes and in doing so claimed rights to the name that Schwinn did not want to answer to. "Bicycling" magazine established it was not suitable name to use, ATB was and that is what Schwinn issued from 1980.




Schwinn did use the term "Mountain Bike" in their advertising!


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## Les (Jun 13, 2022)

L-wagon
The numbers you are having confusion reading are the part numbers for a 19” (29 266) and separate 21” (29 265) frames made to the same design. To what dated yearly catalogue do these part numbers connect to which is may not be a yearly sales publication. 
I have seen this page in a 1983 sales publication and consider it would have been sent to the printer in at least October 1982 so it could be sent to the Schwinn retail shops for the coming Christmas sales inclding new 1983 Schwinn product. These frames I consider had to exist in October 1982 or earlier.

Les


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## J-wagon (Aug 4, 2022)

J-wagon said:


> Submitted a purchase request to my county library. Will find out in a week if approved. 🤞



Not available in my county library system (33 libraries). I requested book purchase but county unable to purchase due to out of print. They offer to perform expanded interlibrary search and loan for small fee. I think that is my next step to obtain copy to read.


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## schwinnderella (Aug 4, 2022)

My library had a copy and I checked it out a couple of times, and then I found a copy at the Goodwill for $2.00 still have that one. It is an interesting read.


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## Bru (Aug 4, 2022)

Goldenrod said:


> I know that we have mentioned it before but new people are being added each day.  It is also the story of America.  Try getting a copy on Amazon.  Oops.  I just looked. $165.  Try your local library.



I'm new here and just found out about the book a few weeks ago. Checked it out from the library and read it right away. I enjoyed the book a lot. Super interesting the interaction of Schwinn with other things in the bike industry - like retail bike stores, startup manufacturers like Giant and Shimano, and trends such as mountain biking and BMX racing. It was kind of an overview of how the bike industry works with the origins of brands like Specialized, Mongoose and Kestrel.


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## 1817cent (Aug 4, 2022)

I have a copy and would pass along to a newer caber for $50.  Pm if interested.  Check or MO only.  NO PAYPAL..  Jay


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