# Freewheel Chain Slipping



## drglinski

I´ve been working on getting a Schwinn Sports Tourer going in the right direction again.  I took it out for it´s short shakedown run today and noticed an issue that needs corrected. 

The chain likes to slip on the freewheel when I´m ¨really getting on it¨ and it doesn´t matter the gear.  I´m unsure as if it´s 1) too long of chain IE not enough tension on the derailleur, 2) a slightly bent derailleur causing the chain to try to inadvertently shift or 3) something else.  The chain checks out when measured laying on a bench as being right on the money 20¨ or so down the links.  The skipping/slipping on the freewheel happens every half revolution or so.  I don´t see any binding of a particular link when running the chain through the paces in stand.

I posted this in a few other places so I can hopefully narrow down what to look for.  Does anyone have an idea on where I could look to eliminate this issue?  If it helps, I´m running the LeTour GT300 long cage derailleur. 

Thanks


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## Metacortex

Normally skipping would be caused by a worn chain and/or freewheel but I don't think that is the case here. From what you say the chain isn't worn and from the pictures I've seen you post of your freewheel it doesn't look to be worn, and even if it was the wear would normally be in only one or two of the sprockets instead of all five. Since you say it happens every half revolution I suspect that one of the pawls and/or springs has failed inside the freewheel body. If it were mine to preserve the unique original Sports Tourer freewheel rather than replace it with something that isn't original I would disassemble the freewheel and rebuild it. If a pawl or spring is broken you could get one from any other Schwinn Model J freewheel as all of the internals should be the same.

It may be that one or both of the pawls are sticking, so before rebuilding I would remove the dust seals, flush the freewheel with solvent, then oil, then reinstall the seals. If that doesn't help then I'd do the full disassembly and rebuild.


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## drglinski

How do I tell if it´s just improper chain tension?


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## Metacortex

The Sports Tourer came with a 116 link (58") chain, 1" longer than that used on the Super Sport and 2" longer than that used on the Continental and Varsity. From the pics yours seems to be correct and the tension from the derailleur looks good. I doubt it is the derailleur but you could try the other derailleur you have just to be sure.


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## Schwinn499

My money is on the chain, I had a very similar problem with my 73 SS that had a brand new chain so I outed that as a possible issue, so I went through all the other options. It turns out the new chain had a *slightly* twisted link that caused it to skip under heavy load but was fine on the stand or under light pedal pressure. Id change the chain first before I do anything else.


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## drglinski

How about this one-- running the bike thorough it´s paces in the stand and applying tension on the rear wheel as it´s being pedaled noticed, especially pulling on the pedals and rotating the wheel in reverse, the chain likes to get hung up on the front of the opposing freewheel cog.  When I center the wheel so the drive line is in more a straight line, it looks like the dishing is off.  Ever heard of that?


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## rustystone2112

sounds like 1 or more links in the chain are stuck


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## drglinski

rustystone2112 said:


> sounds like 1 or more links in the chain are stuck




Look at the pics of the driveline.




 


This one is blurryish but you can see a pin of the chain actually touching a tooth of the freewheel.



 




 

When I adjust the axle so the freewheel teeth do not touch the chain, the wheel at the chain stays is severely to the left.  The pics above are where the wheel is centered.  Did I mention the wheel, while centered at the chain stays, is not centered at the seat stay?  

I went through all the links and worked them.  I´m leaning towards dishing being the cause right now.


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## rustystone2112

drglinski said:


> Look at the pics of the driveline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one is blurryish but you can see a pin of the chain actually touching a tooth of the freewheel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I adjust the axle so the freewheel teeth do not touch the chain, the wheel at the chain stays is severely to the left.  The pics above are where the wheel is centered.  Did I mention the wheel, while centered at the chain stays, is not centered at the seat stay?
> 
> I went through all the links and worked them.  I´m leaning towards dishing being the cause right now.



is that the original chain ? if not maybe you need a narrower chain , 10 spd chains are narrower than balloon or middleweights


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## Schwinn499

Go with the easy fix first. Swap the chain out for newbie..


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## drglinski

My Sprint chain pins (1974 Sprint) measures at a .28 inch.  The Sports Tourer chain (in question) measures .31 inch.


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## rustystone2112

drglinski said:


> My Sprint chain pins (1974 Sprint) measures at a .28 inch.  The Sports Tourer chain (in question) measures .31 inch.



try switching them


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## buickmike

Looking at first pic I could see chain drifting toward adjacent cog. Your second pic shows what I believe is the cog picking up the pin that sticks up from each link
Now you can see it so you are on right track. What I use to do is hang the bike and go thru gears. Your pulley wheels could be adjusted. Of course all this is depending. On rear derallier hanger being tight -basically the line of sight between chainwheel-freewheel-+jockey pulley.


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## drglinski

Put the Sprint chain on it today.  It def. helps (it's a KMC chain) and the chain that originally was on the bike when I got it is some no name (I imagine POS) chain from Taiwan.  It helped some, but there is still a noticeable change in the direction that the freewheel is oriented with the chain as it drives.  (The adjacent cogs are closer to the chain at the front of the freewheel where the chain "enters" the freewheel than the whole circumference/exit of the freewheel.) I really think the current crappy-ish chain PLUS the fact that the dish is off on the rear wheel is contributing to the driveline problem.  I contacted Denny Norman from East side bike shop (Centerline MI) and he said he can get it back to true as I don't have the tools to do it myself. He helped confirm my suspicions of the dishing being off because the wheel is centered on the wheel stays but not the seat stay.  

Stay tuned.....


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## Schwinn499

Im trying to picture this in my head, but how could the dish of the rim effect the driveline? The driveline components are all fixed in the dropouts. The rim is what would be out of alignment left or right. 

Most freewheels have a "wobble" to them which is common.


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## drglinski

Schwinn499 said:


> Im trying to picture this in my head, but how could the dish of the rim effect the driveline? The driveline components are all fixed in the dropouts. The rim is what would be out of alignment left or right.
> 
> Most freewheels have a "wobble" to them which is common.





To straighten the freewheel in alignment with the chain the wheel/tire needs to be moved so it's touching the inside of the frame.  When the wheel is centered in the wheel stay the freewheel is aligned like the pictures above.  Plus the wheel isn't centered in the seat stay (when centered in the wheel stay) so it needs addressing anyway.


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## fattyre

Is the derailleur mounted to the frame correctly?   To me, it looks wrong.

Can't tell from the picture, but it looks like that upper coil spring isn't under tension.  That will defiantly cause chain tension and shifting issues in any gear combo.

When the derailleur is not under chain tension, the whole derailleur should rotate back ward.  When the chain is installed, both springs should be under tension.  This probably explains why the teeth are contacting each other.

It looks like that B tension is not properly positioned to the tab on the derailleur hanger.  It needs to be "wound up".

On new derailleurs its called B tension, and its adjustable.  Its really important on new wide range cassettes so the cog and pulley have a proper gap.

Couldn't find any good pics of vintage stuff, but this might help you get the idea of what I'm talking about.






Dish will have absolutely nothing todo with derailleur adjustment, it'll just make your bike not track straight.

Derailleur hanger alignment is also really important, but yours looks pretty straight.  Crooked hangers usually lead to drive train noise and indexed shifting thats off.  Not sure if your is friction or index, either way it is a separate issue.


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## fattyre

drglinski said:


> To straighten the freewheel in alignment with the chain the wheel/tire needs to be moved so it's touching the inside of the frame.  When the wheel is centered in the wheel stay the freewheel is aligned like the pictures above.  Plus the wheel isn't centered in the seat stay (when centered in the wheel stay) so it needs addressing anyway.




Thats where a drop out alignment tool comes in handy.   You should also double check the dish on the wheel.  If the axle spacing has been changed, it could throw the dish outta whack.  And some times wheels just aren't dished right anyway.

dropout alignment tool


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## Dale Alan

Have the BB and crankset been changed ? If so your chain line problems could be there,not your freewheel.


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## Metacortex

I would recommend checking the frame alignment, you can use the string method as shown here: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html


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## drglinski

Egads this thread has gone in a whole lot of directions. I appreciate the replies however.  

I did the string test.  Checks out right on the money.  I don't think there is an issue there.  

The derailleur is fine.  Both springs (top and bottom) are taught and "snap back" when rotating the derailleur chain less back.  No binding or hesitation.  

For all I know I could just need a new chain and the wheel aligned better.  (perhaps the wheel dishing doesn't have that much to do with the alignment of the drivetrain.  Either way it still needs to be checked and eliminated as a potential problem causer).  I'm hoping that after I do these it'll work better.  I know the freewheel could be worn and be causing the issue, which is a problem since I really like that style of freewheel with the skip tooth rings.  

PS the bottom bracket and chain rings are the original French made TA.  

Thanks


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## Schwinn499

drglinski said:


> Egads this thread has gone in a whole lot of directions. I appreciate the replies however.
> 
> I did the string test.  Checks out right on the money.  I don't think there is an issue there.
> 
> The derailleur is fine.  Both springs (top and bottom) are taught and "snap back" when rotating the derailleur chain less back.  No binding or hesitation.
> 
> For all I know I could just need a new chain and the wheel aligned better.  (perhaps the wheel dishing doesn't have that much to do with the alignment of the drivetrain.  Either way it still needs to be checked and eliminated as a potential problem causer).  I'm hoping that after I do these it'll work better.  I know the freewheel could be worn and be causing the issue, which is a problem since I really like that style of freewheel with the skip tooth rings.
> 
> PS the bottom bracket and chain rings are the original French made TA.
> 
> Thanks



Get the wheel trued up and throw a new KMC or a NOS Union or Sedis chain on it, I have a feeling ull be good to go.

I have a very lightly used freewheel for your bike if you were interested.


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## drglinski

Dropped the wheel off at East side bike shop today.  Denny said just by looking at the wheel he could tell it was off, and someone likely dished the wheel centered over the axle and not the whole axle/freewheel assembly.

He's out of chain- well, the sunlight ones are there, but I'm going to hold out for a KMC and get that somewhere else.

I did find a few boxes of these while poking around the stash--




 



 

I saw nothing on the box that stated exactly what they were.  I get that they are shimano.  Would one of these work in place of the current one if it's shot?

Thanks


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## Schwinn499

Freewheel looks like a 14-32? The original is a 14-34 IIRC.


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## drglinski

Yes, the Shimano counts only 16 teeth on the largest sprocket.  Would it work? or would it screw everything up.  I realize it doesn't have the flange on the smallest gear but that's not a game changer for me.  I like that it has the skip tooth look and is close to the original.

I did some research on it and found this: http://www.schwinnbikeforum.com/index.php?topic=18476.0  by our good friend Metacortex.  I'd be interested in getting his opinion on this.


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## Metacortex

In addition to being 14-32 (vs. the original 14-34), the Shimano branded version also lacks the "top protector" (outer chain guard) and dust seals found on the original Schwinn Approved unit, plus it also requires a different Shimano freewheel tool for removal. Other than that it would work just as well as any other non-original replacement freewheel.

The original freewheel didn't look very worn in your pics, and I would not suspect sprocket wear as being the cause of skipping in every sprocket. If there is a pawl problem you could easily rebuilt it. Note that the internals (pawls, springs, bearings) on that Shimano unit would be identical to your Schwinn Approved freewheel.


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## drglinski

Metacortex said:


> The Sports Tourer came with a 116 link (58") chain, 1" longer than that used on the Super Sport and 2" longer than that used on the Continental and Varsity. From the pics yours seems to be correct and the tension from the derailleur looks good. I doubt it is the derailleur but you could try the other derailleur you have just to be sure.




Know of a good online source that sells them?


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## Metacortex

Most chains seem to come in 116 link lengths, which you cut shorter if necessary. These days you pretty much have to choose from SRAM or KMC for new chains, just make sure you choose 8-speed or less:

KMC: 

https://www.google.com/search?q=kmc+chain+z33
https://www.google.com/search?q=kmc+chain+z50
https://www.google.com/search?q=kmc+chain+z51

SRAM: 

https://www.google.com/search?q=sram+chain+PC830
https://www.google.com/search?q=sram+chain+PC850
https://www.google.com/search?q=sram+chain+PC870
https://www.google.com/search?q=sram+chain+PC890


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## bairdco

Am I missing something here, or do schwinns not have adjusting screws on their derrailuers? 

Most have two screws, one hi and one low, and by turning them in and out it adjust the alignment, which is the primary cause of unwanted gear changes.


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## GTs58

bairdco said:


> Am I missing something here, or do schwinns not have adjusting screws on their derrailuers?
> 
> Most have two screws, one hi and one low, and by turning them in and out it adjust the alignment, which is the primary cause of unwanted gear changes.




You must have skipped over most of the OP's posts.


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## Schwinn499

bairdco said:


> Am I missing something here, or do schwinns not have adjusting screws on their derrailuers?
> 
> Most have two screws, one hi and one low, and by turning them in and out it adjust the alignment, which is the primary cause of unwanted gear changes.




Hi Low adjustment screws are just that, Hi and Low. They limit the derailleurs travel and have nothing to do with the issue at hand.


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## bairdco

drglinski said:


> The chain likes to slip on the freewheel when I´m ¨really getting on it¨ and it doesn´t matter the gear.  I´m unsure as if it´s 1) too long of chain IE not enough tension on the derailleur, 2) a slightly bent derailleur causing the chain to try to inadvertently shift or 3) something else.  The chain checks out when measured laying on a bench as being right on the money 20¨ or so down the links.  The skipping/slipping on the freewheel happens every half revolution or so.  I don´t see any binding of a particular link when running the chain through the paces in stand.




Ok, uhh, I didn't miss this, in the first post. which is exactly what happens when a derailluer is not adjusted properly. 

Then there's 2 pages about frame straightening, buying chains, freewheels, improperly dished wheels, everything short of buying a new bike, with no mention (except by me) of turning two little screws in and out to get the derailluer aligned and shifting properly.

Adjusting the hi and low screws fine tunes the travel of the derailluer, which ensures every gear is engaged properly, stops chain jumping, and is exactly the (original) issue at hand.


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## GTs58

So the shift lever can be omitted then? High low screws have absolutely nothing to do with insuring every gear is engaged properly. That's what the shifter lever is for.

*Adjusting the hi and low screws fine tunes the travel of the derailluer, which ensures every gear is engaged properly, stops chain jumping, and is exactly the (original) issue at hand.*


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## bairdco

No, that's not right. If adjusted improperly, the chain can jump off the top cog and bind between the spokes and the freewheel, because the shift lever has more travel than the adjuster allows for, or not make it to the top gear because it's adjusted too low. 

I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to help the guy out, instead of having him spend a bunch of money trying to fix what sounds like a very simple problem.


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## bairdco

Wait. On second thought, I had the exact same problem with a 1960 ford falcon. Gears slipped under load, frame was bent, rear wheels were out of alignment...

Sold it to a junkyard. Solved all my problems.


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## Schwinn499

Buying a new chain and truing a wheel is just routine for refurbishing a bike. OP is the one who brought up a new freewheel and comments were made to defend its necessity. The Hi Low adjustment has zero to do with the problems of a bad chain-line and improper derailleur alignment. The only chain alignment they could effect would be the Hi and Low cogs if it was improperly adjusted, those adjustments have zero effect on the middle three cogs.

The rear wheel may have been out of true, but I still stick to my guns on it being a new chain that solves the problem.


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## Dale Alan

As mentioned above the high/low screws are for limiting the travel of the derailleur.A friction shifter does not care what the limits are set at .Maybe you are thinking of indexed shifting ? Indexed is set by the adjusting barrels  being turned in or out to line the jockey wheels up to insure proper indexed shifting.


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## Dale Alan

Schwinn499 said:


> Buying a new chain and truing a wheel is just routine for refurbishing a bike. OP is the one who brought up a new freewheel and comments were made to defend its necessity. The Hi Low adjustment has zero to do with the problems of a bad chain-line and improper derailleur alignment. The only chain alignment they could effect would be the Hi and Low cogs if it was improperly adjusted, those adjustments have zero effect on the middle three cogs.
> 
> The rear wheel may have been out of true, but I still stick to my guns on it being a new chain that solves the problem.



+1
$10 chain will likely fix the problem .If not,you have a new chain so you can start eliminating the problems from there.


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## Dale Alan

Have you tried shifting into the big chainring and standing on the pedals ? In the big chainring the chainline will be straighter(going by what your pic shows) and the chain tension will be greater.If you see a big difference you are narrowing down things.


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## bairdco

I was thinking of index shifters, but I've had friction shifters where adjusting the hi lo cured chain jumping because the adjustment was right on the edge of shifting.

But now that my first suggestion has been blown out of proportion, a dry or stretched out (or both) cable can cause jumping.

I guess my main point is to check the easy, cheap stuff first. if my car stops running, I check that there's gas before I rebuild the engine.


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## Schwinn499

bairdco said:


> I was thinking of index shifters, but I've had friction shifters where adjusting the hi lo cured chain jumping because the adjustment was right on the edge of shifting.
> 
> But now that my first suggestion has been blown out of proportion, a dry or stretched out (or both) cable can cause jumping.
> 
> I guess my main point is to check the easy, cheap stuff first. if my car stops running, I check that there's gas before I rebuild the engine.




Nothing was out of proportion besides your comment about "everything short of buying a new bike". Were all just trying to help this guy just like you are. If your car won't start, you don't change the transmission and hope it solves the problem, just like you don't adjust hi low screws for a derailleur that's skipping on multiple cogs on your freewheel. So to answer your initial question, yes your missing something here.


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## Schwinn499

Even on an index setup, the high lows still do just that, hi and low. Its the barrel adjuster that fine tunes your alignment with the cogs.


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## rustjunkie

Here's what I might do:
Check that the correct width and length chain is on the bike
check the condition of the chain with a chain wear gauge
confirm that the cable is not binding and is in good condition.
check derailer alignment
check and adjust the limit screws


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## drglinski

bairdco said:


> I was thinking of index shifters, but I've had friction shifters where adjusting the hi lo cured chain jumping because the adjustment was right on the edge of shifting.
> 
> But now that my first suggestion has been blown out of proportion, a dry or stretched out (or both) cable can cause jumping.
> 
> I guess my main point is to check the easy, cheap stuff first. if my car stops running, I check that there's gas before I rebuild the engine.




Hey buddy, I ain't mad at 'ya. I appreciate you trying to help me fix my problem.  It would have helped if I specifically specified I suppose that I am using the original friction shifters on the Sports Tourer and not the indexed kind. I'm getting the wheel fixed and I'm getting a new chain, and go from there.


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## drglinski

http://kmcchain.us/chain/z33np-silver/

I'm fairly certain I bought this one for my Sprint. I am unsure exactly cuz I thought I saved the paperwork/etc from it, but I bought it 3 years ago and couldn't find it.  Opinions on this one working for the S/T?  Thanks


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## Schwinn499

I have Z33s on multiple ten speeds of mine, all have functioned as expected.


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## detroitbike

A New chain and freewheel will fix the problem.
  It could have started out with a stiff link which you can find by pedaling backwards
and watching where the Derailleur jumps.
  Denny will be able to fix your problem........


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## drglinski

Rear wheel is dished and true.  Denny hooked me up.




 


I found a new KMC narrow chain for derailleur equipped bicycles to place temporarily to check the driveline.



 

Since it's snowed and rained this weekend I can't try it out.  It works much better even in the stand, and sorta trying to ride it in the basement for a few feet I don't hear any chain slipping like I used to.  I wonder if the PO had put on a single speed chain...



 



 


Thanks guys.


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## Schwinn499

Looking forward to the ride report.


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## drglinski

It warmed up and quit raining enough for a spin.  Works fairly well.  It will still slip some on the highest chainwheel and lowest gear on freewheel if I _really _stomp it.  I was thinking about it and relating to how often I would actually ride hard in that gear, which is likely never.  I'd likely get it rolling, and use that combination to cruse.  The more I tinker the better it gets.


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## drglinski

I remembered I have a gopro that can help me with things.  Check this out.  




It looks like a link is jumping or is bound up somehow.  Remember it only happens on the smallest cog.  Could it be a link that isn't worked out fully or a derailleur issue, etc?  It doesn't bind up or catch when it's being run through easily, especially in the stand.


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## GTs58

Seeing the chain jump up like that would indicate a binding link to me. Does the chain have a quick link?


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## drglinski

The chain does not have a quick link.  It was put on with a chain tool.  Thanks.


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## Metacortex

Try another new chain. If that doesn't help then post a close-up pic of the small freewheel sprocket with the outer chain guard (top protector) removed. Perhaps one tooth is bent or malformed?


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## GTs58

The reason I asked if there was a quick link is there may be a chance that the link that was used to join the chain together is a tad bit tight. Sometimes it takes a little fiddle farting to get it just right so it doesn't bind, especially on a 14t gear.


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## drglinski

Still working on the driveline issue.  I went through each link and they are all free.  I'm going to get another chain and go from there.


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## drglinski

New chain, KMC Z33....same issue.  Now I'm leaning towards freewheel.  Who knows...I"ll put $$ into another one of those and it won't be the issue I'm sure.    It only does it on the smallest cog.


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## rustjunkie

The smaller cogs wear faster. As chain wears the pitch is increased, and so the distance between the teeth on the cog(s) increases.
New chain installed: correct pitch on chain, old cog(s) worn to the pitch of the old chain and will "skip" under pressure.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html

A good old bicycle shop might have the small cog and might be able to install it for you.


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## Metacortex

The small 14T cog from just about *any* Schwinn Approved Model J freewheel (more specifically 2nd gen+ 1972 or later) will work as a replacement on a 1972 or later Sports Tourer freewheel. They are very common: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCHWINN-APPROVED-MODEL-J-FIVE-SPEED-FREEWHEEL-14-28-NICE-/301922365757


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## momo608

odd place for this thread!

Excuse me if this was discussed but it sounds like a derailleur return spring tension problem.

Did you take these apart, clean and re grease them?


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