# Dropouts determining year of a frame



## Bob_in_WV (Dec 2, 2008)

Hi, first time poster, probably about to expose just how new I am to this hobby.

I was of the understanding that rear facing dropouts is an indicator of a pre-war frame.  But I was just looking at some Shelbys, and I found pictures showing a Donald Duck bike with the early style dropouts (http://oldbike.homestead.com/files/donaldduck.jpg).  The Donald Duck was built from 49-51, so this means Shelby used rear-facing dropouts into the 50's.

I guess what I'm looking for is confirmation that if I want to be sure I find a prewar frame, I need to dig deeper than just looking at the dropouts.  Or am I all wet in my understanding of what I'm seeing on the Duck bike?

Thanks for putting up with this rookie question,

Bob


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 2, 2008)

Hi, you're doing fine. you would not believe how many collectors who have been around a while still believe that this is true. the problem is that it is basically true for Schwinn so everyone equates that with all manufacturers. Huffman used rear facing dropouts well into the '50's others changed over at different times. your best bet is to decide which brand you are looking at and find out from a knowledgeable collector when they changed. or more importantly, if you want a pre-war excluding all others, you need to figure out the characteristics of the brands you are looking at that make them pre-war.
Scott


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## Bob_in_WV (Dec 3, 2008)

Thanks 37 ... this Shelby showed up for sale claiming to be a pre-war but it sure seemed way too clean to be so old so it brought out my skepticism.  

What I'm really looking for is a Schwinn frame/fork.  I think I could ID one from looking at the way the seat stays curve after the bridge.  Funny how a lot of old bikes listed for sale on the 'net omit that angle.  That brings out my inner skeptic too.


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## AntonyR (Dec 3, 2008)

Hey Bob,
Just a quick question:
Why would you pass over a Shelby for the hopes of buying a Schwinn? Are you buying it for the name, or do you genuinely like the lines of a Schwinn better? I was just asking, since people new to this hobby of wartime and before ballooner collecting automatically think Schwinn is the brand to look for. !  

* This message is brought to you by the makers of Crealm toothpaste and the society for people that roll their eyes at the people who think that everything's got to be Schwinn.


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## Aeropsycho (Dec 3, 2008)

*Hater....*

Schwinns are like Brains every collectors got One or had One... Just never used them.:eek:

Don't look at the Elgins... you are gonna lose it!

Eeeeeee Baaaay......(@?@)

J A M I E


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## markivpedalpusher (Dec 3, 2008)

Don't be haten on my prewar Schwinnns LOL


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 3, 2008)

Aeropsycho said:


> Schwinns are like Brains every collectors got One or had One... Just never used them.:eek:
> 
> Don't look at the Elgins... you are gonna lose it!
> 
> ...



problem with Schwinns is that at least brains are useful
Scott


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## PCHiggin (Dec 4, 2008)

*Schwinn*



37fleetwood said:


> problem with Schwinns is that at least brains are useful
> Scott




OK guys, get real here. Schwinns were/are a WAAAAY better built bike than your dept. store/auto parts garbage and thats a fact ALL of us have known since we were kids. Their frames,rims,stems and everything else on the bike were/are much stronger and thats why even @ the original higher cost, you will always find more of them than any run of the mill Murrays,Huffys,JC Higggins (Another Murray POS) or any other brand X junker. Columbia came the closest in quality but they NEVER warranted their bikes like Schwinn. Schwinn also built the coolest looking bikes starting in the 1930's and made everyone else try to play catch up. There isn't enough space to list all of them. Aerocycle,B-6 Phantom,Jaguar,Sting-Ray.Get serious guys,with a possible few exceptions,Schwinns are the most valuable collector bikes out there. Try to get a Phantom price for some cheapo bike made in Ohio,good luck. Patrick


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## PCHiggin (Dec 4, 2008)

*Schwinn*



37fleetwood said:


> problem with Schwinns is that at least brains are useful
> Scott




OK guys, I know you gotta be kiddin' LOL!. Schwinns are a WAAAAY better built bike than the dept. store/auto parts bikes and we ALL know this. I've known it since the early 60's. Everything about their bikes is built stronger and nicer.Thats why even @ the original higher cost, you will always find more of them than any run of the mill Murrays,Huffys,JC Higggins (Another Murray , which I have) or any other brand X, El-Cheapo bike.Schwinn out sold them all. Columbia came closest in quality but they NEVER warranted their bikes like Schwinn. Schwinn also built the coolest looking bikes since the 1930's and made everyone else try to play catch up (which they never did)There isn't enough space to list all of them,but we all know of these,Aerocycle,B-6, Phantom,Jaguar,Sting-Ray.With a possible few exceptions,Schwinns are the most valuable collector bikes out there.I'm 48 and NOBODY that I knew in the '60's, wanted that Murray or Huffy they saw @ the dept. store.We all wanted that Sting-Ray or Jaguar because they were the coolest and best built. Oh by the way, the subject was determining the years by drop-outs,well front facing drop-outs are a better idea and again Schwinn had the lead.Pat


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## old hotrod (Dec 4, 2008)

I am under the impression that this post concerned pre and early post war bikes...and some light-hearted poking at the ribs of the Schwinn-o-philes...so what is your point Pat?


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## PCHiggin (Dec 4, 2008)

old hotrod said:


> I am under the impression that this post concerned pre and early post war bikes...and some light-hearted poking at the ribs of the Schwinn-o-philes...so what is your point Pat?




Point is, you can tell a GOOD pre and post war bike by the drop-outs,just poking some fun @ the brand Xer's


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## AntonyR (Dec 4, 2008)

PCHiggin said:


> Point is, you can tell a GOOD pre and post war bike by the drop-outs,just poking some fun @ the brand Xer's



Stay on the sidewalk with the rest of the children.


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## markivpedalpusher (Dec 4, 2008)

AntonyR said:


> Stay on the sidewalk with the rest of the children.





Yes get up here on the side walk where it's safe away from the brand x riders on the small bus LOL


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## Aeropsycho (Dec 4, 2008)

*Nice Balance... some Schwinns...*

I have about 20...etc.

I have a couple of Columbias with post war rear dropouts (no adjusters) and a 1946ish dayton Huffman that has rear dropouts too...

I think some CWCs had them as well.

J A M I E


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 4, 2008)

Ok, now that this thread has done it's job and given the answer it asked, we can have some fun and be educational too. for the newbies sit back and see the splendour of old bikes in all their variety, for you Schwinn guys I challenge you to find any Schwinns that match the beauty of these few "Brand X" bikes from the prewar era.
*First up, I challenge anyone to come up with a bicycle which is more classy, more beautiful, or more desireable than this 1940 Huffman Airflyte Twin-Flex!*




*Next up, find someone who wants an aerocycle more than this absolutely gorgeous Murray made Elgin Robin!* (edit, actually I think the Robins are made by Columbia)



*And lastly but certainly not least the ever popular Montgomery Wards Hawthorne made by Cleveland Welding for durability, beauty and with the Shockmaster, probably the best ride in old bikes!* (no quality issues here!)



Ok guys the bar has been set high, show me what you got! 
Scott


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## PCHiggin (Dec 4, 2008)

Those are  beautiful bikes to look at Scott, and I'd love to have any one of them,but I'll take a sturdy Schwinn of the same era over a  Murray or Huffy any day. Patrick


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 4, 2008)

Apples and Oranges, once you say Higgins you have moved us into the post war era when most all the manufacturers cheapened up considerably. 1960's Huffy's are kinda crappy but find a pre-war Huffman and they are some of the best built bikes that were ever made. The Robins I admit were a bit fragile but still beautiful. the funny thing is that prewar Schwinns seem a bit spindley when the other brands were bullet proof and post war Schwinns were rock solid when everyone else was going to pot. the old joke used to be that Schwinn when designing the Varsity was going to make them out of cast iron until they found something heavier.
finally you gave in too easy, where are the photos of the aerocycles, or deluxe autocycles for the newbies to drool over.








Scott


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## old hotrod (Dec 4, 2008)

PCHiggin said:


> Point is, you can tell a GOOD pre and post war bike by the drop-outs,just poking some fun @ the brand Xer's.
> Those are  beautiful bikes to look at Scott, and I'd love to have any one of them,but I'll take a sturdy Schwinn of the same era over a  Murray or Huffy any day. Patrick




Wow...step away from the kool-aid...tell a "good" bike from the drop-outs? And comparing 60s or 70s Murrays and Huffys with pre war Mercury and Huffman bikes, some of the finest bikes ever made? Nothing like bringing a knife to a gun fight...leave him be Scott, this one is defenseless...


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 4, 2008)

I could say that I knew that when he dropped the "S" word, but that would be too easy
Scott


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## PCHiggin (Dec 5, 2008)

old hotrod said:


> Wow...step away from the kool-aid...tell a "good" bike from the drop-outs? And comparing 60s or 70s Murrays and Huffys with pre war Mercury and Huffman bikes, some of the finest bikes ever made? Nothing like bringing a knife to a gun fight...leave him be Scott, this one is defenseless...




Oh C'mon now,First,It was for a chuckle.I meant Schwinns were the best before and after WW2 . Second, a Mercury is a Murray,ok? Think what you like,it's a fun thread.Pat


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## Flat Tire (Dec 5, 2008)

So what happened to ole Bob in WV? I think you guys scared him off  or maybe he changed his mind about finding a schwinn frame/fork and went with a new electra:eek: :eek: :eek:


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## AntonyR (Dec 5, 2008)

All that my original question was meant to ask/say was that if you get wood from riding a bike because it has a Schwinn badge, that's great. Just don't be misled by people who put Schwinn on top of the food chain because of their narrow, misguided vision. In it's hey-day, Schwinn was like Honda. Reliable, well built and plentiful. Just not too creative in design elements or forward thinking like it's competitors of it's era. That's why many of us choose to drive Audis and BMWs. Why settle?


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## markivpedalpusher (Dec 5, 2008)

37fleetwood said:


> Ok, now that this thread has done it's job and given the answer it asked, we can have some fun and be educational too. for the newbies sit back and see the splendour of old bikes in all their variety, for you Schwinn guys I challenge you to find any Schwinns that match the beauty of these few "Brand X" bikes from the prewar era.
> 
> Those are insane bikes Scott...Very nice


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## AntonyR (Dec 5, 2008)

markivpedalpusher said:


> Yes get up here on the side walk where it's safe away from the brand x riders on the small bus LOL



Oh now you've gone too far... Ok, you and me. Behind the back-stop after school. You can't hide in band practice all day waiting for your mom to pick you up either. I don't have a lot of time because I gotta get my braces tightened today!


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## ace (Dec 5, 2008)

*Bigger is Better*

The bigger the tank, the better the cool factor. 2 cents from the peanut gallery!


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## markivpedalpusher (Dec 5, 2008)

AntonyR said:


> Oh now you've gone too far... Ok, you and me. Behind the back-stop after school. You can't hide in band practice all day waiting for your mom to pick you up either. I don't have a lot of time because I gotta get my braces tightened today!




Ok show down at high noon but watch out I have that guy Leroy in my back pocket who is bused in from the west side who was held back 2 years and is 1foot taller then all of us kids. He takes my lunch money for protection :eek:


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## markivpedalpusher (Dec 5, 2008)

ace said:


> The bigger the tank, the better the cool factor. 2 cents from the peanut gallery!




True that


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## AntonyR (Dec 5, 2008)

*Score one for the Schwinn team...*



ace said:


> The bigger the tank, the better the cool factor. 2 cents from the peanut gallery!



That's definitely the Schwinn wild card that trumps most arguments, but not this one....


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## AntonyR (Dec 5, 2008)

markivpedalpusher said:


> Ok show down at high noon but watch out I have that guy Leroy in my back pocket who is bused in from the west side who was held back 2 years and is 1foot taller then all of us kids. He takes my lunch money for protection :eek:



You tuba players think you're so cool with your flashy Gentle Ben lunch boxes and patches on the knees of your jeans, but you can't fool any of us over here in Latin club. Vedi Vini Vici!


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## PCHiggin (Dec 5, 2008)

ace said:


> The bigger the tank, the better the cool factor. 2 cents from the peanut gallery!




WoW! Thats a beauty.What year,34? I'm curious,How are the dropouts fastened to the chainstays? Are they stitch or spotwelded? or other? Thanks, Pat


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## Bob_in_WV (Dec 5, 2008)

Flat Tire said:


> So what happened to ole Bob in WV? I think you guys scared him off  or maybe he changed his mind about finding a schwinn frame/fork and went with a new electra




LOL, no I just made it back, and still want a Schwinn.  I was glad to see my post gave you all something to talk about though 

I'm looking for the frame to build a semi-custom, California Klunker styled mountain bike, but built for cross-country instead of gravel road downhill riding.  I'm going to put new light parts on it, paint it up like an original, and ride the snot out of it.  

I've got a background in car collecting, so rest assured I'm not going to jump on a nice original and part it out   I know what survivor status means.


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## Bob_in_WV (Dec 5, 2008)

PCHiggin said:


> WoW! Thats a beauty.What year,34? I'm curious,How are the dropouts fastened to the chainstays? Are they stitch or spotwelded? or other? Thanks, Pat




Thats part of what makes me want a Schwinn ... the dropouts and stays don't like appear to be put together like crimp-welded department store bikes.  

I agree, the bikes posted above are sweet.  I've seen Mercurys in particular for sale that really looked like little hotrods, and I was tempted, but the construction just doesn't seem as good as a Schwinn does.

I can be convinced otherwise ... it just won't be easy


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 5, 2008)

ok, lets do a bit of comparison thinking.
first the Schwinn in this case may have a little more durability as the Elgins had a tendency to break where the down tube comes into the bottom bracket when severely abused. the rear dropouts look the same to me and almost never factor in as a problem on either bike.
remember guys when you say things like "department store bike" that department stores didn't build their own bikes and Schwinn provided their share or them so it's a non issue and an unfair characterization.
on to aesthetics, hands down the Elgin wins. look at that fluted Zeppelin tang with it's classy embossed script, the Schwinn has what looks like a swimming pool buoy painted silver with a water transfer decal. you know what I mean, the little floatie things that keep the kiddies in their lane at the YMCA? fenders, the Elgin has beautiful duck tailed fenders with a stunning fender mounted light that Schwinn would try to replicate later. frame design, the Schwinn looks like a left over motorbike frame with the bottom bar removed and a buoy stuck on the top bar. the Elgin has a graceful top bar which flows seamlessly through the seat tube down to the rear wheel, the seat tube gently curves in harmony with the rear fender as does the down tube with the front fender. the rack, the Schwinn has what looks like the Luggage carrier off a Model A ford coupe, is that angle iron? while the Elgin continues with it's petite graceful lines even on something as utilitarian as a rack, the Schwinn, well utilitarian is the only word to describe it. accessories, the Schwinn has a pancake horn mounted on the handle bars while the Elgin has it's nicely hidden in the tank as Schwinn would also later do. the Elgin has a speedo beautifully mounted on it's own very custom mount, the Schwinn??? we already discussed the light though at the head of it's buoy the Schwinn has one of it's shining moments with it's high tech tank mounted lights. pedals, the Elgin has beautiful weighted aero pedals with chrome caps on the ends, the Schwinn? are those off the old motorbike they robbed the frame from? finally, I would rather go without a chain guard than the after market middleweight looking piece on the Schwinn. in later years the Elgin did come with a guard.
your turn. 
Scott


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## PCHiggin (Dec 5, 2008)

Bob_in_WV said:


> LOL, no I just made it back, and still want a Schwinn.  I was glad to see my post gave you all something to talk about though
> 
> I'm looking for the frame to build a semi-custom, California Klunker styled mountain bike, but built for cross-country instead of gravel road downhill riding.  I'm going to put new light parts on it, paint it up like an original, and ride the snot out of it.
> 
> I've got a background in car collecting, so rest assured I'm not going to jump on a nice original and part it out   I know what survivor status means.




It's interesting you want to start with a Schwinn for your semi-Klunker. I had forgotten this,but Gary Fisher used early Schwinns as the basis for his 'Klunkers" as he called them. He chose them because they were known for their superior strength over the past 40 years, @ that time. Pat


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## PCHiggin (Dec 5, 2008)

37fleetwood said:


> ok, lets do a bit of comparison thinking.
> first the Schwinn in this case may have a little more durability as the Elgins had a tendency to break where the down tube comes into the bottom bracket when severely abused. the rear dropouts look the same to me and almost never factor in as a problem on either bike.
> remember guys when you say things like "department store bike" that department stores didn't build their own bikes and Schwinn provided their share or them so it's a non issue and an unfair characterization.
> on to aesthetics, hands down the Elgin wins. look at that fluted Zeppelin tang with it's classy embossed script, the Schwinn has what looks like a swimming pool buoy painted silver with a water transfer decal. you know what I mean, the little floatie things that keep the kiddies in their lane at the YMCA? fenders, the Elgin has beautiful duck tailed fenders with a stunning fender mounted light that Schwinn would try to replicate later. frame design, the Schwinn looks like a left over motorbike frame with the bottom bar removed and a buoy stuck on the top bar. the Elgin has a graceful top bar which flows seamlessly through the seat tube down to the rear wheel, the seat tube gently curves in harmony with the rear fender as does the down tube with the front fender. the rack, the Schwinn has what looks like the Luggage carrier off a Model A ford coupe, is that angle iron? while the Elgin continues with it's petite graceful lines even on something as utilitarian as a rack, the Schwinn, well utilitarian is the only word to describe it. accessories, the Schwinn has a pancake horn mounted on the handle bars while the Elgin has it's nicely hidden in the tank as Schwinn would also later do. the Elgin has a speedo beautifully mounted on it's own very custom mount, the Schwinn??? we already discussed the light though at the head of it's buoy the Schwinn has one of it's shining moments with it's high tech tank mounted lights. pedals, the Elgin has beautiful weighted aero pedals with chrome caps on the ends, the Schwinn? are those off the old motorbike they robbed the frame from? finally, I would rather go without a chain guard than the after market middleweight looking piece on the Schwinn. in later years the Elgin did come with a guard.
> ...




Hi Scott, Didn't you post some pics. of a bike with the drop-out seperated from the frame? What kind of bike was it? See, to me,the real beauty in Schwinns isn't necessarily the style,which I happen to love in all of their classics,it's the beauty of the stronger construction and  quality parts that make it up. I've stated it before,you will find more classic Schwinns than any other brand because of that quality,they outsold them all. Pat


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 5, 2008)

Schwinn made a great bike! I'm kinda teasing when I pick apart the Aerocycle. I have a Twin-Flex that had one of the rear dropouts broken loose, but how many have had this problem? I have had a problem with a couple newer Huffmans coming apart at the drop out but they are put together totally different from the Twin-Flexes. Huffman used thinner lighter stronger tubing than the other makers and welded them together with silicon bronze whereas the others brazed theirs together. eventually Schwinn fillet welded their frames making them very durable though heavy. in fairness I have repaired a few broken Schwinn frames. they were good but with few exceptions they were on par with the other major manufacturers until the postwar years when Schwinn maintained Quality and the others were forced to cut quality to compete with the influx of lightweights from europe.
another thing I would like to point out is from our perspective we tend to overlook the importance of the cantilever frame. when Schwinn introduced it it was entirely novel. we look back at years of cantilever middleweights of varying quality from thousands of makers but in the '30's when they came out there was nothing that looked as revolutionary. Schwinn came up with it because of it's inherent strength. it solved the problem of broken frames they and all the manufacturers were having. so at the time of the Aerocycle, Schwinn quality was similar to their competition. build quality was good as can be testified by the thousands of survivors from the many brands out there. Evinrude stands out as a shining example of crappy design and shoddy materials and as such there there are very few of them left and of those you won't find one you can get close to without finding something that went bad and had to be fixed or replaced. somebody needs to post in my poll thread some shining example of Schwinndom from the '50's like a Phantom or maybe a Panther? next I want to do a poll of streamlined beauties from the mid to late thirties?
Scott


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## AntonyR (Dec 6, 2008)

Bored. Done. Next.


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 6, 2008)

AntonyR said:


> Bored. Done. Next.



now you've bugged me. first I'm not here to entertain you, you want it entertaining then participate more. next when is the last time you started a post to entertain us? I post in here all the time, I start threads here because if you guys get bored you get pissy or nothing happens. I've stopped posting and watched the forums come virtually to a halt. you guys need to start posting more if you want it to be more fun here. look at the view totals, they're high but how many guys look and don't bother posting? most of you. I posted a thread trying to start a poll and I got one guy adding a bike the rest are just complaining about various things! if you don't like the threads and want to talk about something START A THREAD OF YOUR OWN!!!!! I've posted almost 1700 times there is no limit and you won't get in trouble for too many posts. ok, I feel better now but seriously you guys need to reply to the posts you look at and enjoy the place. stop complaining if you get bored and make it interesting.
Scott


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## PCHiggin (Dec 6, 2008)

37fleetwood said:


> now you've bugged me. first I'm not here to entertain you, you want it entertaining then participate more. next when is the last time you started a post to entertain us? I post in here all the time, I start threads here because if you guys get bored you get pissy or nothing happens. I've stopped posting and watched the forums come virtually to a halt. you guys need to start posting more if you want it to be more fun here. look at the view totals, they're high but how many guys look and don't bother posting? most of you. I posted a thread trying to start a poll and I got one guy adding a bike the rest are just complaining about various things! if you don't like the threads and want to talk about something START A THREAD OF YOUR OWN!!!!! I've posted almost 1700 times there is no limit and you won't get in trouble for too many posts. ok, I feel better now but seriously you guys need to reply to the posts you look at and enjoy the place. stop complaining if you get bored and make it interesting.
> Scott




Hey Scott, You do a good job of keeping things going. Try not to let the noise bother you,lets keep it fun. I want to post a couple pics of my favorite bikes, but I dont own any of them now and I cant find a decent pic. on the net. I'll list them anyway.Thanks,Pat
1) 1963 Schwinn Jaguar in black with the Bendix 2 speed hub.
1-1/2) 1967 or '68 (I cant remember) Murray F1 Eliminator,in the purple/pink fade paint. This was my first new bike
2) 1950's Schwinn Streamliner in dark blue/cream. standard fork/trusses
3) 1955 or '56 Schwinn American in red with the Bendix manual 2 speed hub


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 6, 2008)

I'm not upset I just whine every once in a while
Scott


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## Flat Tire (Dec 6, 2008)

Well I'm bored and I'm pissy:eek: but thats only because its snowing like hell, my bikes are in the barn, and theres no heat except a stinky old kerosene heater...  Any good jobs in California?


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 6, 2008)

I'd like some snow every once in a while
we get the cold but usually not the snow, one of the drawbacks of living in a desert.
Scott


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## Bob_in_WV (Dec 6, 2008)

37fleetwood said:


> another thing I would like to point out is from our perspective we tend to overlook the importance of the cantilever frame. when Schwinn introduced it it was entirely novel. we look back at years of cantilever middleweights of varying quality from thousands of makers but in the '30's when they came out there was nothing that looked as revolutionary.




Now there's a thought ... remembering that I want to create a cross-country bike, not a downhiller, I've been interested in the cantilever design.  It looks as if it might act as a spring - if the bike was made out of good steel.  Generally speaking they're not, right?, or is that a misconception?

I probably should've bought this bike, and would've, if I wanted to build a fun road bike.  But it looks like it'd be too long to get around in the woods.


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 6, 2008)

I just remembered something, check these out:
http://ratrodbikes.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=27&sid=061dc4e4cef4e585ebf1d164522c1c21
http://ratrodbikes.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=28&sid=061dc4e4cef4e585ebf1d164522c1c21
Scott


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## Bob_in_WV (Dec 6, 2008)

Lots of food for thought at those links, thanks

This site is for one of the original Marin builders 
http://clunkers.net/index.html

From the prices, I don't think he wants to sell any bikes, but that's OK.   I plan to keep the ones I've got too.


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## tDuctape (Dec 6, 2008)

If you look close, the Elgin is kinda cute. It would be fun to have one for my girlfriend to ride. 

(just having fun, I like Schwinns)


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