# Help I.D. this TOC/teens era frame, if you please



## boardhoarder (Nov 29, 2014)

I recently picked up this TOC-ish frame/fork combo from a fellow CABE'r and have been enjoying collecting parts and doing a bit of clean up and repair on it. 

That being said...I would love to know: _who made this thing?_

The previous owner thought perhaps it might be built by Great Western Manufacturing, Co (possibly a Crown?) around 1905-1910, but that was all the info he had on it. I showed it to another fellow who thought it might be a Columbia or maybe a Cleveland.

A few pieces of info: 

-The frame is lugged at the head tube only

-The head badge hole spacing is vertical @ 2 1/16"

-Forks appear to be nickel under all the rust

-Serial number appears to be: 'JI6519' although maybe that '5' is a '3'? It kind of looks like a drunk with one of those ransom note typewriters stamped it 

I've attached some photos here. If anyone would like to see any additional views or specific details, let me know.

Thanks in advance for any info you might be able to provide.


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## Goldenindian (Nov 30, 2014)

*Same chainring. Yale?*

Saw this on the davis thread. Same chainring. Im not sure but saw the picture 
could send ya in the right direction. Not sure? its also has # does yours look like his?


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## boardhoarder (Nov 30, 2014)

Goldenindian said:


> Saw this on the davis thread. Same chainring. Im not sure but saw the picture
> could send ya in the right direction. Not sure? its also has # does yours look like his?




Thanks for chiming in, Goldenindian.

I haven't seen that chainring on another bike, so it's a start! Though, I would love to find some conclusive evidence on the frame itself.

And my bike does have kind of a similar serial number placement.

Hmm...anyone else have any ideas?


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## jkent (Nov 30, 2014)

Not an expert but it does look to be a Davis built bike. 
I know I like it and want it. Give me a shot if it ever comes up for sale.
Have you checked out the Davis thread?
JKent


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## boardhoarder (Nov 30, 2014)

jkent said:


> Not an expert but it does look to be a Davis built bike.
> I know I like it and want it. Give me a shot if it ever comes up for sale.
> Have you checked out the Davis thread?
> JKent




Thanks for the info, JKent

Yes, after Goldenindian posted earlier, I went through the _entire_ Davis thread. I didn't see anything that looked exactly like my bike, but I did see a few similarities. 

The chain ring was the only real dead-on match, but as we know parts can be easily swapped.

Is there anything in particular on my bike (besides the chain ring) that makes you think it is a Davis built?

Oh, and I will certainly let you know if I decide to move it down the road.


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## hoofhearted (Dec 1, 2014)

boardhoarder said:


> Is there anything in particular on my bike (besides the chain ring) that makes you think it is a Davis built?





*boardhoarder ... i agree with jkent on the Davis identification.

And, each of us is looking for a genetic marker on the machine, to
conclude that this machine IS actually a Davis-Built.

Check out the fotos below.  Do you see similarities in your machine ?

Am not commenting, yet, on those forward, frame-lugs .. and the 
unusual wrap-around feature of the top / bottom of the headtube.

Can you find any extra numbers underneath the crankcase ?*

Thanks .....

....... patric



 









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## sam (Dec 1, 2014)

I'll point out the rear fork ends(drop outs) are electro spot welded and the frame was not dip brazed as in the second bikes photo of the bottom brackets(look at all the brass on the second bike)


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## catfish (Dec 1, 2014)

More fine work from the Davis built Bike Master. Patric, please write down all this info... It would make a good book. 



hoofhearted said:


> *boardhoarder ... i agree with jkent on the Davis identification.
> 
> And, each of us is looking for a genetic marker on the machine, to
> conclude that this machine IS actually a Davis-Built.
> ...


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## boardhoarder (Dec 1, 2014)

Patric, Sam, and Catfish...many thanks for your replies and insight.

To address the serial number issue: I looked again this morning and don't see any additional numbers, but I think I will dig a bit deeper later today and see what I can find.

Patric, I've added some detail shots of the fork here. Hopefully, this is what you needed. Let me know if you'd like any other views, etc.


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## hoofhearted (Dec 1, 2014)

catfish said:


> Patric, please write down all this info... It would make a good book.





*Catfish ... Every person who placed an entry here so far has made a worthwhile contribution
to hopefully figure-out the many mysteries in the production of these teen's bicycles.

In light of the membership's sleuthing-nature ... boardhoarder may consider asking a CABE 
Administrator if this particular thread can be lifted and placed within the Show Your Davis-Built Bicycle 
Thread ... as many of the Davis-Related Threads are floating around out there somewhere --- unconnected 
to the mothership.

Finally ... this typer is by no means making a decree that boardhoarder's diamond-frame is a Davis-
Built.  I particularly like sam's contribution that there is no evidence of "dip-brazing" at the crankcase
of this machine.  There may be evidence of brass in the area of that crankcase ... we may not be able 
to see it, yet ... what with oxidation and factory-grinding that often occurs.   This is something that will need 
to be investigated.

Excellent fotos of that fork, boardhoarder ...........*


................  patric



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## boardhoarder (Dec 1, 2014)

Thanks again, Patric.

I will send a message asking if this can be moved into the Davis thread.

In the meantime, I'm wondering if you (or anyone else reading this) have any thoughts on the wrap-around detail on the head tube? In my brief poking around, this is the one trait that I haven't seen on any other bike...


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## sam (Dec 1, 2014)

I'm wondering if the head lugs are a repair. Inside the head tube does the top tube/down tube go into the head tube and fishmouth?


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## boardhoarder (Dec 1, 2014)

sam said:


> I'm wondering if the head lugs are a repair. Inside the head tube does the top tube/down tube go into the head tube and fishmouth?




Sam, if I understand what you are describing, then yes. 

If it is an older repair, then it looks really professional- short of the wrap-around portion at the top front of the head tube being a little off from side to side.

Here's a photo looking up from the bottom of the head tube:


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## hoofhearted (Dec 2, 2014)

*Holy Crap ... bumped into a November 1, 2014 post by Wheeled Relics titled
Cracked Lugging (Preservation Restoration Tips) .........

The post shows the same model bicycle that boardhoarder 
features in this thread ........

If i knew how to grab and glue the posting-link, i would have done so .... *


..............  patric



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## sam (Dec 2, 2014)

boardhoarder said:


> Sam, if I understand what you are describing, then yes.
> 
> If it is an older repair, then it looks really professional- short of the wrap-around portion at the top front of the head tube being a little off from side to side.
> 
> ...




Your looking at the original factory internal fish-mouthed lugs. The external lugs are a repair.


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## sam (Dec 2, 2014)

Here's a photo of a Rambler with the same repair lugs. Being this is a rambler frame makes it very easy to see that the lugging were added repairs


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## Wheeled Relics (Dec 2, 2014)

*Too small for me...*

Interesting bicycle I rescued from the re-cycling center in Portland. Too small for me to ride, so I've passed it on. 

I had not considered the possibility of repair lugs, good investigation work here.


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## Boris (Dec 2, 2014)

hoofhearted said:


> *Holy Crap ... bumped into a November 1, 2014 post by Wheeled Relics titled
> Cracked Lugging (Preservation Restoration Tips) .........
> The post shows the same model bicycle that boardhoarder
> features in this thread ........
> If i knew how to grab and glue the posting-link, i would have done so .... *




http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...acked+Lugging+(Preservation+Restoration+Tips)


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## hoofhearted (Dec 2, 2014)

*Thank You -- Dr. Marko .... for posting that link regarding that Cracked Lugging thread of Nov. 1, 2014.*

I really appreciate it !!!

...... patric



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## hoofhearted (Dec 2, 2014)

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## boardhoarder (Dec 2, 2014)

Yup, my bike and the one in Wheeled Relics' photos are one in the same.

I saw David's thread in the restoration section and thought 'I can fix that'. Next time, I'll know better...ha! 
But really, I thought it would be a fun and easy project and the frame was the right size for me. David was kind enough to offer it up, so I jumped on it.

At any rate, the cracked lugs have now been welded. Unfortunately, when I started to dig in a few more opened up, but it all cleaned up pretty nicely in the end.

So now my question is this: since the lugs at the head tube are likely a repair and not original to the bike, _should I consider removing them altogether and try to restore the the tubes as they were originally configured_? 
Is that silly to even think about?

My goal is to preserve this bike in it's current state, but it has a lot of umm...'patina', shall we say (read: rust) anyway. I've already dug into it, and I have the technology to do the repair (I think!). Should I fix it?

What would you do if it was yours?


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## sam (Dec 2, 2014)

If you fix it everyone will have a bike like yours----but with the early repair lugs----me and you are the only ones with them!


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## Wheeled Relics (Dec 2, 2014)

*asthetics*

Repaired repair? Probably looks even cooler. Give us a look see?


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## hoofhearted (Dec 3, 2014)

boardhoarder said:


> So now my question is this: since the lugs at the head tube are likely a repair and not original to the bike, _should I consider removing them altogether and try to restore the tubes as they were originally configured_?
> 
> Is that silly to even think about?
> 
> ...





*If you are not planning a restoration ... and are considering a preservation ... please consider
making sure there are no invisible cracks.  A good weld-specialist will have what it takes to deter-
mine if any cracks remain after that large break was fixed.  It IS fixed, right ?  Your safety is a consideration.

Once you believe you have a solid frame ... allow those eons-old repairs to stay.  They are part of the 
identity of your ride.  Someone took the time to do a very-practical repair .. perhaps an over-repair ...
but it sure gives personality to a standard ''diamond'' frame of a century (or more) ago.

If you want ... after you take a rag with lacquer-thinner on it ... to degrease the frame .. and maybe remove
some paint debris ... you can clear the machine with Krylon Matte-Finish Spray.  This will stop the patina from
growing (as in wide, deep, and from now - on).*

May the winds of good fortune fill your sails .........

...... patric


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## boardhoarder (Dec 3, 2014)

Sam: I tend to agree. I do like the originality and craftsmanship that went in to the repair. Mine doesn't look as cool as yours, though!

My first thought is to keep the repair lugs in place. My only apprehension is that suppose I do eventually figure out the make and year of this bike (with the kind help of everybody here, of course!), the next step for me would be to try and find the head badge. I'm assuming the part of the repair that wraps around the head tube would probably not allow the original badge to fit. Of course all of this is a long shot, but still something to consider.

Anyhow, as David requested, here's a photo of the repaired repair:






Now, to address Patric's concerns: Yes, I'm sure the newest repair is good and solid. As for further hairline cracks around the frame, I cannot say at this point. 
I would like to make the bike rideable eventually, but I don't think I'll be taking any really long rides on it. Not to mention that I've been a skateboarder for 30+ years now, so falling is a speciality at this point...ha!

Lastly, I've dug a little deeper into the paint around the serial number and I don't think there are any additional numbers there. I did see something that looked _possibly_ like a couple of smaller digits to the upper right of the serial number but I can't get them to show up in a photo- even after manipulating the image heavily in Photoshop. I'm beginning to think I just _want_ to see another number that isn't really there, but it's been a long day.

Sorry for the long post, gents. I really appreciate the information and opinions everyone has given thus far.


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## sam (Dec 4, 2014)

At sometime in this bikes long life it has taken a header or two, you can see it in the tubes. The steer tube is the one part I'd be most concerned with. Your photos shows rub marks at the bottom. and your head set doesn't set correct---think I'd replace that tube.
As far as a head badge I'd go with any Hardware brand badge ---plenty of those obscure type of badges around.


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## boardhoarder (Dec 4, 2014)

sam said:


> At sometime in this bikes long life it has taken a header or two, you can see it in the tubes. The steer tube is the one part I'd be most concerned with. Your photos shows rub marks at the bottom. and your head set doesn't set correct---think I'd replace that tube.
> As far as a head badge I'd go with any Hardware brand badge ---plenty of those obscure type of badges around.




Sam, I think what you are seeing is the fork just hanging there. The headset is not tight, as I don't have any bearings in it at the moment. I _think_ the steer tube is actually ok.

And you're right- this thing has definitely taken some frontal impact in the past. The small kink in the bottom tube is the next thing I'm considering addressing, but it will be a lot of work to repair that section and I don't know that it is really necessary to make it rideable.

So, not to sound like the total newbie that I am, but what exactly do you mean by "Hardware brand badge"?


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## sam (Dec 4, 2014)

These are what I call Hardware brands as they were not bicycle companies 



These are all later than what would look good on your frame but give you an idea to look at----I've seen those Western Union Messenger badges they would look go on your frame.


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## Wheeled Relics (Dec 4, 2014)

*I.D. & Identity*

You definitely have the time to verify the possibilities of frame manufacture before jumping to conclusions about what would "look" best. Hoofhearted has offered some insightful reflections that can be developed further. The repair lugs create a unique profile to work with. The right badge will pop up. Between the unique frame geometry and the chainring, the possibilities are not limitless.


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## Goldenindian (Dec 4, 2014)

*Similar Frame? maybe consider chicago made?*

So..I found another frame today that made me think of this thread. A couple weeks ago I got this Beckley-Ralston Company catalog.I noticed that the diamond frame bicycles had that same chainring! I have pictures of the Colonial bicycle from the catalog. I can't quite make out the ghost from the missing badge, but it looks like it could be similar. I thought the fork looked very similar as well. The bicycle was manufactured in Chicago, and has the same chainring.? That brings up a question? Davis Frame from Chicago?Davis is Dayton Ohio. I seen the davis made Arrow that was posted and the Yale that I posted, and the chainring is a match. This frame(Colonial or Ariel) made me question the Davis frame theory. Thought you might want to check it out, maybe help narrow things.


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## Goldenindian (Dec 4, 2014)

*forgot this*

this is the pictured bike


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## Wheeled Relics (Dec 4, 2014)

*By jove detective work!*

Excellent series of leads here


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## Lux Low (Dec 5, 2014)

*Beckley Ralston Lead*

I seems that when I was Researching My Beckley Ralston I came up with Michigan City Excelsior made  or Davis but my, no after closer examination no spot welded rear drop outs and what looks to be a Davis serial. HMMmmm I will Post some Beckey Ralston Picts to the Davis thread for the Experts.

Oddly Enough I am pretty sure I got the same make frame in a motor bike form  wednesday, i will post it here too.


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## boardhoarder (Dec 5, 2014)

sam said:


> These are what I call Hardware brands as they were not bicycle companies
> 
> 
> 
> These are all later than what would look good on your frame but give you an idea to look at----I've seen those Western Union Messenger badges they would look go on your frame.




Thanks for the photo, Sam!


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## boardhoarder (Dec 5, 2014)

Wheeled Relics said:


> You definitely have the time to verify the possibilities of frame manufacture before jumping to conclusions about what would "look" best. Hoofhearted has offered some insightful reflections that can be developed further. The repair lugs create a unique profile to work with. The right badge will pop up. Between the unique frame geometry and the chainring, the possibilities are not limitless.




Thanks David. I'm sure this bike has been without its head badge for many years, so waiting until the correct one comes along is no big deal. I'm enjoying the research that I've been doing and, most of all, the input of everyone who has posted in this thread.


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## boardhoarder (Dec 5, 2014)

Goldenindian said:


> So..I found another frame today that made me think of this thread. A couple weeks ago I got this Beckley-Ralston Company catalog.I noticed that the diamond frame bicycles had that same chainring! I have pictures of the Colonial bicycle from the catalog. I can't quite make out the ghost from the missing badge, but it looks like it could be similar. I thought the fork looked very similar as well. The bicycle was manufactured in Chicago, and has the same chainring.? That brings up a question? Davis Frame from Chicago?Davis is Dayton Ohio. I seen the davis made Arrow that was posted and the Yale that I posted, and the chainring is a match. This frame(Colonial or Ariel) made me question the Davis frame theory. Thought you might want to check it out, maybe help narrow things.




Thanks for posting this, Goldenindian!! 

Wow, a lot of similarities there. I wonder what the experts think about this recent development. Hoofhearted?


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## sam (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm on expert--just a student, but I'd like to see more info / research into Beckley Ralston.


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## Balloontyre (Dec 6, 2014)

I don't think that the chainring is proprietary,  as most are not.
I've seen that ring as early as 1910.


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