# Black Phantom- 1955?- Fair condition- What is it worth?



## Risk Man (Nov 29, 2022)

Might be able to pick this bike up in a couple of months....claimed to be a Father's original bike that Dad kept from the age of 10. He passed away recently and son is selling it as is.  Claimed to be all original. I know what the best of these sell for as seen on the forum in the past week. So price as is? Price cleaned up?  It would be a pretty sizable investment for ME, so I want to do my homework before taking the next step.


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## Hoagie57 (Nov 29, 2022)

One just sold on here for $7000.00 so skies the limit 🤩


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## Risk Man (Nov 29, 2022)

Hoagie57 said:


> One just sold on here for $7000.00 so skies the limit 🤩



That is what I was refering to... top end. But no comparison to this one. Thanks


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## Hoagie57 (Nov 29, 2022)

$1500.00 is a good start


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Nov 29, 2022)

looks like that one would clean up VERY NICE with minimal effort.


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## HEMI426 (Nov 29, 2022)

Looks way better than fair condition to me.


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## Freqman1 (Nov 29, 2022)

Later bike with no locker and no Forebrake I've seen trade at $800-1200. From what I've seen the market is a little soft on these.


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## Rivnut (Nov 29, 2022)

https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCat/flschwinn_1951_1960/1955_10.html
		


The one you’re picturing looks like the one in the illustration. Nice find.


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## phantom (Nov 29, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Later bike with no locker and no Forebrake I've seen trade at $800-1200. From what I've seen the market is a little soft on these.



I think the pre pivot through the fork legs, four hole rack ones are more desirable. This bike is clean and has a lot of potential. Here is a pretty good comparison. A 57 that may not be quite as nice but certainly priced right. I have sent PM's about, waiting on reply.









						Withdrawn - 1957 Schwinn Black Phantom ready to ride | Sell - Trade: Complete Bicycles
					

Up for sale is this 1957 Schwinn Black Phantom. I bought off the original owner. It has had some amateur paintwork done some years back. I have respoked the original wheels. And put tires and innertubes on. What you see is exactly what you get. I been riding it all over the local greenways and...




					thecabe.com


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## Xlobsterman (Nov 29, 2022)

Hoagie57 said:


> One just sold on here for $7000.00 so skies the limit 🤩




The bike was listed for $7000, but who actually knows what it sold for? Or if it even sold at all?????


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## Risk Man (Nov 29, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> Later bike with no locker and no Forebrake I've seen trade at $800-1200. From what I've seen the market is a little soft on these.



Understood and great advice. I will say that the asking price is over that range. The missing high-end components surely would drive a higher price and increase the rarity of the model. I have much to learn!


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Nov 29, 2022)

what is the asking price?

this picture here says a lot about how sweet that bike will be with a minimal effort. how many times has that wheel been removed from the bike?

never monkeyed with, never abused. probably ridden a few years and stored properly. if this were a 1950 with a forebrake it would be worth 5 grand.

chrome looks like more dirt than corrosion. I bet it has the original tubes.

ignore any negativity. some people just thrive on the negative rather than look at the positive.


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## Nashman (Nov 29, 2022)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> looks like that one would clean up VERY NICE with minimal effort.



A gem in the rough, but as you say, not that rough. That's a fun project to bring a bike like that back.


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## Nashman (Nov 29, 2022)

Risk Man said:


> Understood and great advice. I will say that the asking price is over that range. The missing high-end components surely would drive a higher price and increase the rarity of the model. I have much to learn!



You are at the right place to learn and humble enough to ask. I have learned TONS on the Cabe, still am. I hope you get the bike, and at a fair price. Keep us posted please.


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## Nashman (Nov 29, 2022)

It is a 26" wheel bicycle? Maybe a stupid question, it looks small in the pic? Again, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask?


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## Risk Man (Nov 30, 2022)

Nashman said:


> It is a 26" wheel bicycle? Maybe a stupid question, it looks small in the pic? Again, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask?



good question... but it is 26


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## Escondido Deluxe Hornet (Nov 30, 2022)

Great bike that will clean up nice.


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## Risk Man (Nov 30, 2022)

Thanks... asking price is $1000. Not sure it can be had for less... I will find out in Mid January when the owner returns to the area


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## HEMI426 (Nov 30, 2022)

I'd try to lock that price in over the phone, maybe send a deposit. If you wait til mid January  it might be to late. Good Luck. Your taking quite a Risk Man no pun intended, well maybe.


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## BFGforme (Nov 30, 2022)

.


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## razinhellcustomz (Dec 1, 2022)

Risk Man said:


> Thanks... asking price is $1000. Not sure it can be had for less... I will find out in Mid January when the owner returns to the area



Good luck, sounds like a great bike at a really great price... RideOn....


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Dec 1, 2022)

$1,000.00 seems fair to me.


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## Risk Man (Dec 1, 2022)

Great Feedback from the "Cabers". Thank you!


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## furyus (Dec 1, 2022)

No one asked but I’ll chime in. If I scored a bike in that condition I’d preserve it rather that ”clean it up” or restore it. Wash the dirt off of it, get it mechanically sound and arrest the rust with some light oil. Just arrest it, not remove it. I love survivors; they have a story. That story is lost with over-cleaning or restoring.


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## 1817cent (Dec 1, 2022)

Most of my bikes are nicer than that Black Phantom.  However, if i had a chance to pickup your bike for $1000 (or a tad less) i would do it as quickly as possible.


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## Nashman (Dec 1, 2022)

furyus said:


> No one asked but I’ll chime in. If I scored a bike in that condition I’d preserve it rather that ”clean it up” or restore it. Wash the dirt off of it, get it mechanically sound and arrest the rust with some light oil. Just arrest it, not remove it. I love survivors; they have a story. That story is lost with over-cleaning or restoring.



Hi, I get that opinion, respect it, and it seems over the last decade or so "patina" has become a more appreciated state of a vintage anything. That's good. It's true with many things that if you alter original wear or aging, you are in fact reducing the value and charm of said item. For that matter, "barn find and patina" are the buzz words of the decade. Over used in my opinion as lots of the terms are used inaccurate. A barn is a barn, and patina is from use or shelf/storage age. Not a shed or dumping salt on a repro sign. People have been watching the barns in AP too much.

I grimace at over-restored anything, but it happens and I've been guilty over the years, usually not on purpose. The quality of paint and plating sometimes surpasses the original finish. It happens. It's uncommon to tell a painter to be a bit sloppy or a plater, pin striper to cut a few steps or close one eye on your project. "Drink a 12 of bud before you spray paint my car, or do it Monday morning or just before you quit on Friday?"  Hmnn.........

If something has been neglected and deteriorated based on being stored in poor unnatural conditions ( outside/damp/wet basement/ salt or chemicals) and the item can be "brought back" with a little detailing, personally I support that. It is a matter of choice and taste though. That bike looks like it has been neglected, not abused. There is a big difference. If that bike was owned and maintained and stored properly all these years, it would probably shine like new still. Take Bobby U's example he just sold on the Cabe. Survivors are wonderful. It's the state they have survived and how is the question. Lots of us "old school" guys are used to cleaning up the "patina" with some good old "elbow grease". To each their own. Personally, I'd buff the bike from stem to stern and bring back the natural beauty.


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## phantom (Dec 1, 2022)

Nashman said:


> Hi, I get that opinion, respect it, and it seems over the last decade or so "patina" has become a more appreciated state of a vintage anything. That's good. It's true with many things that if you alter original wear or aging, you are in fact reducing the value and charm of said item. For that matter, "barn find and patina" are the buzz words of the decade. Over used in my opinion as lots of the terms are used inaccurate. A barn is a barn, and patina is from use or shelf/storage age. Not a shed or dumping salt on a repro sign. People have been watching the barns in AP too much.
> 
> I grimace at over-restored anything, but it happens and I've been guilty over the years, usually not on purpose. The quality of paint and plating sometimes surpasses the original finish. It happens. It's uncommon to tell a painter to be a bit sloppy or a plater, pin striper to cut a few steps or close one eye on your project. "Drink a 12 of bud before you spray paint my car, or do it Monday morning or just before you quit on Friday?"  Hmnn.........
> 
> If something has been neglected and deteriorated based on being stored in poor unnatural conditions ( outside/damp/wet basement/ salt or chemicals) and the item can be "brought back" with a little detailing, personally I support that. It is a matter of choice and taste though. That bike looks like it has been neglected, not abused. There is a big difference. If that bike was owned and maintained and stored properly all these years, it would probably shine like new still. Take Bobby U's example he just sold on the Cabe. Survivors are wonderful. It's the state they have survived and how is the question. Lots of us "old school" guys are used to cleaning up the "patina" with some good old "elbow grease". To each their own. Personally, I'd buff the bike from stem to stern and bring back the natural beauty.



I get what you are saying. I appreciate aged patina and originality. What I don't get is pictures of a bike with mud, dirt a little surface rust and it's been that way in their possession for months or years in that condition. Bikes can be original and clean at the same time. Removing dirt and grime is not hurting originality.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Dec 1, 2022)

to me that is not the bike to just be left alone. probably spit on your thumb and clean the rust off the fenders and rims that way.


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## GTs58 (Dec 1, 2022)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> to me that is not the bike to just be left alone. probably spit on your thumb and clean the rust off the fenders and rims that way.




Yah. I'd do the full blown Cinderella treatment on that.


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## Nashman (Dec 1, 2022)

A team of Wild horses couldn't keep @HARPO  from giving that bike a new lease on life.


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## furyus (Dec 2, 2022)

Nashman said:


> Hi, I get that opinion, respect it, and it seems over the last decade or so "patina" has become a more appreciated state of a vintage anything. That's good. It's true with many things that if you alter original wear or aging, you are in fact reducing the value and charm of said item. For that matter, "barn find and patina" are the buzz words of the decade. Over used in my opinion as lots of the terms are used inaccurate. A barn is a barn, and patina is from use or shelf/storage age. Not a shed or dumping salt on a repro sign. People have been watching the barns in AP too much.
> 
> I grimace at over-restored anything, but it happens and I've been guilty over the years, usually not on purpose. The quality of paint and plating sometimes surpasses the original finish. It happens. It's uncommon to tell a painter to be a bit sloppy or a plater, pin striper to cut a few steps or close one eye on your project. "Drink a 12 of bud before you spray paint my car, or do it Monday morning or just before you quit on Friday?"  Hmnn.........
> 
> If something has been neglected and deteriorated based on being stored in poor unnatural conditions ( outside/damp/wet basement/ salt or chemicals) and the item can be "brought back" with a little detailing, personally I support that. It is a matter of choice and taste though. That bike looks like it has been neglected, not abused. There is a big difference. If that bike was owned and maintained and stored properly all these years, it would probably shine like new still. Take Bobby U's example he just sold on the Cabe. Survivors are wonderful. It's the state they have survived and how is the question. Lots of us "old school" guys are used to cleaning up the "patina" with some good old "elbow grease". To each their own. Personally, I'd buff the bike from stem to stern and bring back the natural beauty.



Well said.

Since childhood, I’ve always been fascinated by abandoned, rusty whatevers. It just amazed me that something that once was someone’s pride and joy is now broken, rusted and returning to the earth. I’m old now, and the same thing is gonna happen to me before too long!

I think the reason “barn find” and ”patina” became such hot buzzwords is because everything else in our lives is disposable crap produced by our communist overlords. To find something, in any condition, made of metal and more than 5 years old is pretty amazing.

The bike in question here really would be a great find. If I had to wait two more months before I’d be able to close the deal, I don’t know that I would have announced to the public that it was even on the block. I’m cynical that way. Hope it all comes true for the OP.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 2, 2022)

Nashman said:


> "patina"






furyus said:


> ”patina”





			meaning of patina - Google Search
		




I'm with you guys, certainly on the over restored bikes goes without saying. As far as patina goes according to the Oxford and other dictionaries "Patina" only develops on Bronze or like materials say Copper. Even the sub definitions make no mention of rust. So by definition any use of the term other than in regards to Bronze type material is wrong and incorrect. It has become the go to term for any sign of age. Like too many things in this world and in our language the word has  been used incorrectly to satisfy the mindless masses. The fact that the term is incorrectly used and accepted so readily is like so many other things in our society I cannot stand. I guess whatever it takes to sell some pottery barn junk to him, her ,they ,he ,she ,it, those or what ever people have decided they would like to be called ( please do not get me going on that topic) makes it OK. I know what real patina is and I still use the term as it has become so accepted but after all is said and done I truly know it is rust. I have always  identified as Royalty so please refer to me as "King Coaster" from now on please.
*Sorry for the derail.*


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## furyus (Dec 2, 2022)

Your Majesty, please note I used rusty and rusted to describe what I like and put “patina“ in quotations. Beyond the word “gay” (remember, the Flintstones had “a gay old time”), I can’t think of a word that has been as overused/misused as patina has been. 

Wow, we are derailing.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 2, 2022)

33 posts and only eight of them relating to the OPs original question...


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## Risk Man (Dec 2, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> 33 posts and only eight of them relating to the OPs original question...



I don't mind!  Great dialog. Thank you.


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## Redphantom (Dec 2, 2022)

HEMI426 said:


> I'd try to lock that price in over the phone, maybe send a deposit. If you wait til mid January  it might be to late. Good Luck. Your taking quite a Risk Man no pun intended, well maybe.



That is very good advise!!


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## HARPO (Dec 2, 2022)

@Nashman  Yes, I love breathing new life into bikes that have been left to the ravages of time...or at least a few breaths. That one would be easy to do. 😀


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## Nashman (Dec 3, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> 33 posts and only eight of them relating to the OPs original question...



That's the fun of being on a forum that doesn't have straight jackets and high walls with barbed wire at the door before you enter. We should have our ( symbolically only in this politically correct time) knuckles wrapped for being so impudent. 8 of 33. That's roughly 24.3%. Not bad for a bunch of relaxed folks having fun?


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## Nashman (Dec 3, 2022)

HARPO said:


> @Nashman  Yes, I love breathing new life into bikes that have been left to the ravages of time...or at least a few breaths. That one would be easy to do. 😀



I think that's great. I'm your biggest fan. I've been complimented over decades for my detailing skills, but also admire others skills and results/tips, and it's truly a passion. My whole collection rampage started with collecting and polishing semi precious stones and gems. As you may have seen, my collection covers many areas, and bringing something back close to it's original beauty is so rewarding. Hats off to you @HARPO !


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## HARPO (Dec 3, 2022)

@Nashman  Thanks for the compliment! And yes, I have seen your Collection...beautiful and outrageous!! 😃


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## michael paladino (Dec 3, 2022)

Risk Man said:


> Might be able to pick this bike up in a couple of months....claimed to be a Father's original bike that Dad kept from the age of 10. He passed away recently and son is selling it as is.  Claimed to be all original. I know what the best of these sell for as seen on the forum in the past week. So price as is? Price cleaned up?  It would be a pretty sizable investment for ME, so I want to do my homework before taking the next step.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice it’ll sell, gotta add in shipping costs and whatever, everything looks


Risk Man said:


> Might be able to pick this bike up in a couple of months....claimed to be a Father's original bike that Dad kept from the age of 10. He passed away recently and son is selling it as is.  Claimed to be all original. I know what the best of these sell for as seen on the forum in the past week. So price as is? Price cleaned up?  It would be a pretty sizable investment for ME, so I want to do my homework before taking the next step.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## michael paladino (Dec 3, 2022)

Risk Man said:


> Might be able to pick this bike up in a couple of months....claimed to be a Father's original bike that Dad kept from the age of 10. He passed away recently and son is selling it as is.  Claimed to be all original. I know what the best of these sell for as seen on the forum in the past week. So price as is? Price cleaned up?  It would be a pretty sizable investment for ME, so I want to do my homework before taking the next step.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Risk Man said:


> Understood and great advice. I will say that the asking price is over that range. The missing high-end components surely would drive a higher price and increase the rarity of the model. I have much to learn!


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