# Teens "Rambler" model question



## Gretsch Guy (Apr 14, 2020)

Greetings all... I'm a new member and this is my first post, so be gentle with me!  I've been trying to research the teens-timeframe racing models.  I was under the impression that the "Rambler" was a bicycle made by Gormully & Jeffery.  I recently encountered THIS (hoping the photo attaches) which suggests it was a Pope Mfg. made bike.  I can't find any info on the relationship (if any) between G&J and Pope Mfg.   Any insights or redirection to an info source would be greatly appreciated!


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## cyclingday (Apr 14, 2020)

Welcome to the Cabe!
Finding that Pope button, is where yellow brick road starts.
Follow the Yellow Brick Road, and you’ll find the answers to all of your questions.
Unfortunately, I am just a Munchkin, and I cannot give you the answer to your question.
But, do not despair!
There are many Wizards here, who will enlighten you along your adventure down the Rabbit Hole.
Oh, wait!
That’s a whole other story.
Good luck on your quest!


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## New Mexico Brant (Apr 14, 2020)

Welcome to the CABE!  Read post #3 and it will clarify your question.








						Rambler bicycle question? | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

I collect Rambler cars. I have an (early 50s?) Rambler bicycle. My understanding is Thomas Jeffrey made bikes and started making the Rambler car in 1897. Is/was there an overlap of cars and bikes, a connection between that name? The last Rambler car was 1969. I tried researching online but...




					thecabe.com


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## cyclingday (Apr 14, 2020)

See!
What I tell ya!
Thank you, Brant!


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## Gretsch Guy (Apr 14, 2020)

Great!  That's exactly what I was looking for... a link between to the two brands (as verified by this promotional pin).  I greatly appreciate the knowledge!  I'll no doubt be back with more inquiries as I try and familiarize myself to the machines that were being applied to the velodrome tracks in the teens period... particularly the Pope/Columbia models.  Cheers!


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## fordsnake (Apr 14, 2020)

Sorry for the soft focus, but heres a list of Pope/ Westfield stable of 1906 bikes.


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## MrColumbia (Apr 15, 2020)

G & J joined the American Bicycle Co. trust which became the American Cycle Co. Pope Mfg was also in this trust and ended up owning most of it by the begining of the 20th century. As Fordsnake shows above Pope ended up with a large portfolio of brands by the teens including Rambler. At first these brands retained their distinctiveness but eventually were simply rebadged Pope models.


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## fordsnake (Apr 15, 2020)




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## Gretsch Guy (Apr 15, 2020)

Yes... thanks.  That list seems to be missing a couple sub-brands.  This is from 1906 as well.. not the addition of names like "Imperial" and "Monarch".


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## fat tire trader (Apr 15, 2020)

Does anyone know until what year Westfield built Ramblers with Rambler features, like the lugs and cranks? At some point, they became almost exactly the same as another Westfield except for the badge. I am trying to establish a date for my Rambler that you can see here http://www.fattiretrading.com/g&j172.html
Thanks,
Chris


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## MrColumbia (Apr 16, 2020)

fat tire trader said:


> Does anyone know until what year Westfield built Ramblers with Rambler features, like the lugs and cranks? At some point, they became almost exactly the same as another Westfield except for the badge. I am trying to establish a date for my Rambler that you can see here http://www.fattiretrading.com/g&j172.html
> Thanks,
> Chris



What is the model number of your bike. It should be on the badge but I can't quite make it out from the picture. I have quite a few Rambler catalogs from all eras so I might be able to establish a year for you.


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## PJ Fitz (Apr 16, 2020)

MrColumbia said:


> What is the model number of your bike. It should be on the badge but I can't quite make it out from the picture. I have quite a few Rambler catalogs from all eras so I might be able to establish a year for you.




I'm in the midst of trying to restore what I've been told is a 1901 Rambler "chainless" but have been unable to find a catalog from that year. Is that something you might have?


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## MrColumbia (Apr 17, 2020)

Unfortunately I only have the front cover for 1901. The closest full Rambler catalog I have is 1904 if that will help.


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## MrColumbia (Apr 17, 2020)

The Rambler Chainless for 1904.


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## fat tire trader (Apr 17, 2020)

MrColumbia said:


> What is the model number of your bike. It should be on the badge but I can't quite make it out from the picture. I have quite a few Rambler catalogs from all eras so I might be able to establish a year for you.



My Rambler is model 172
Thanks,
Chris


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## Freqman1 (Apr 17, 2020)

Patrick FitzGerald said:


> I'm in the midst of trying to restore what I've been told is a 1901 Rambler "chainless" but have been unable to find a catalog from that year. Is that something you might have?




Glad to see you made it Pat. The sickness has begun! V/r Shawn


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## Andrew Gorman (Apr 17, 2020)

There is a Columbia chainless service booklet that states:
"The instructions printed  herein apply to all Columbia and Tribune Chainless bicycles beginning with the 1900 models and also to all other Pope Chainless bicycles beginning  with the 1907 models." It looks like 1906 may be the last year before the heritage lines were consolidated.  I have a 1902 chain drive Rambler frame and it still has the lugwork.  When did Pope open the Westfield factory, and wasn't it built by another bicycle company? If the tooling was in place, it would make sense to continue production there.


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## MrColumbia (Apr 18, 2020)

Model 172 should be 1901 as you suspected. This is based on the first number in the model designation is the last number of the year which is consistent with all the other Rambler catalogs I have.

To the original question the this thread, Mr Gorman may be correct on the 1906 date as being the last for the original lug designs on Ramblers. I don't have a 1906 catalog but in the 1905 catalog they retain the fancy lugging and in the 1907 they are rebadged Pope models. 

The Westfield factory was built by the Lozier Company in 1897. It was in 1905 that Pope started consolidating all the brands he obtained from the failed American Cycle Co trust in Westfield and that continued for several years up to 1913.


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## fat tire trader (Apr 18, 2020)

MrColumbia said:


> Model 172 should be 1901 as you suspected. This is based on the first number in the model designation is the last number of the year which is consistent with all the other Rambler catalogs I have.
> 
> To the original question the this thread, Mr Gorman may be correct on the 1906 date as being the last for the original lug designs on Ramblers. I don't have a 1906 catalog but in the 1905 catalog they retain the fancy lugging and in the 1907 they are rebadged Pope models.
> 
> The Westfield factory was built by the Lozier Company in 1897. It was in 1905 that Pope started consolidating all the brands he obtained from the failed American Cycle Co trust in Westfield and that continued for several years up to 1913.




Regarding Model 172, my first thought based upon the number is 1901 like the other year catalogs suggest. What made me think it might not be made in 1901 is the existence of Rambler badges with the year 1901 printed on the badge, while my badge only has the model number.

This thread shows an 01 badge with a 2 digit model number.









						Rambler, help needed please | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

An acquaintance of mine has just acquired a 'Rambler' bicycle, a fairly unusual machine over here.  Unfortunately pictures are not available as yet. What I know of the bicycle is that the head badge says Rambler, Model 41 at the bottom and bears the date 1901 at the top. It has what he describes...




					thecabe.com
				




 Also basing the model/year assumption on the few catalogs I have and have seen, I have thought, if not 1901, then maybe 1911. But if they stopped producing the lugs in 08, then my bike could not be a 11.

So maybe they switched from 2 digit model numbers in the middle of 01 to three digit model numbers.

Thanks,
Chris


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## MrColumbia (Apr 18, 2020)

My educated guess is 1901 was a transitional year where Pope was switching from the G & J serial/model numbering system to the Pope system. I have seen the same thing on Columbia badges from the American Bicycle/Cycle years, specificaly 1901 with some having the ABC banner on top and others the new style badge. 

I'm pretty confident your bike is a 1901.


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## Barnegatbicycles (Apr 18, 2020)

fat tire trader said:


> Regarding Model 172, my first thought based upon the number is 1901 like the other year catalogs suggest. What made me think it might not be made in 1901 is the existence of Rambler badges with the year 1901 printed on the badge, while my badge only has the model number.
> 
> This thread shows an 01 badge with a 2 digit model number.
> 
> ...



It is 100% not a 1901. That badge style wasn't used until 03. The numbers for 01 are double digits. Here is the list of 01 models and their corresponding bikes I put together one day.


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## fat tire trader (Apr 18, 2020)

Barnegatbicycles said:


> It is 100% not a 1901. That badge style wasn't used until 03. The numbers for 01 are double digits. Here is the list of 01 models and their corresponding bikes I put together one day. View attachment 1176691



What year do you think it is? Thanks, Chris


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## Barnegatbicycles (Apr 18, 2020)

fat tire trader said:


> What year do you think it is? Thanks, Chris











						1890's-00?  rambler model 172 | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

just picked this up today. i always wanted one. its a rambler #172. im not sure what year but i think its in the 1890's-00. the lugs are fantastic and the badge is interesting. i have had a rambler before but have not seen this type of lugs on it.  it has  the adjustable neck track type bars...




					thecabe.com
				



I've seen 1911 a couple times but I don't know for sure without a catalog but it's a place to start.


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## MrColumbia (Apr 18, 2020)




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## fordsnake (Apr 18, 2020)

Excellent find...and thats why Mr.Columbia is called the man!


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## Barnegatbicycles (Apr 18, 2020)

MrColumbia said:


> View attachment 1176772



Any idea on the year?


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## MrColumbia (Apr 18, 2020)

this is from the 1911 catalog. Model 172 is a Roadster, not a chainless. I must be blind.


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## MrColumbia (Apr 18, 2020)

1911. I was way off. I did not look far enough ahead. My apology's.


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## Barnegatbicycles (Apr 18, 2020)

MrColumbia said:


> this is from the 1911 catalog. Model 172 is a Roadster, not a chainless. I must be blind.



All good thanks for the help. I learned something too.


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## fordsnake (Apr 18, 2020)

Barnegatbicycles said:


> All good thanks for the help. I learned something too.




 ...me included.


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## fat tire trader (Apr 18, 2020)

Wow, thanks! That helps so much.


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## MrColumbia (Apr 18, 2020)

I wish that I had better color scans. These are scans of zerox copies my father made years ago from catalogs in the Columbia archives. That was back in the days before computers or scanners. Without blowing up the images I could not make out the details such as the lugs on the frame and fork.


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## Barnegatbicycles (Apr 18, 2020)

MrColumbia said:


> I wish that I had better color scans. These are scans of zerox copies my father made years ago from catalogs in the Columbia archives. That was back in the days before computers or scanners. Without blowing up the images I could not make out the details such as the lugs on the frame and fork.



Don't know if this helps.


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## fat tire trader (Apr 18, 2020)

I want the optional plunger hand brake.


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