# Cleveland Welding S/N Project...See Page 58 Post 576 for chart



## AntonyR (May 23, 2008)

Since many of us have asked, and many of us has now or maybe had in the past a CWC built Roadmaster, I think it's time to start a List. If a picture/serial number list could be started and updated with new entries including frame characteristics, I think we over time could rebuild a serial number/date table to date pre-AMF Roadmaster. With this, we could possibly be able to date Western Fliers and other private label frames built by CWC. The ultimate goal would be to have this list added to the features box along side the Schwinn numbering link.


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## 37fleetwood (May 23, 2008)

check out my Huffman one in the restoration tips section
Scott


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## RMS37 (May 23, 2008)

As I was replying to the Hawthorne question, a number of posts came in. I would love to see a CWC serial number data base built. I have been working on one for myself for some time and plan to put it up on a CWC website I am working on.  I suggest that the best way to build a data base is to include several pictures of a bike, capturing the frame details much like Akikuro did and to photograph the serial number.

A photograph tells the story much better than just noting the number especially in the case of over-stampings and non alpha-numeric symbols 

Obviously this is not always going to happen but as I have had a lot of people tell me a bike is CWC when it isn?t.  I keep spurious numbers out of my data base by only adding numbers I have seen or have photographic proof for.

Phil


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## militarymonark (May 23, 2008)

i have for sure a 41 cwc frame I have the paper work for it


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## AntonyR (May 23, 2008)

Phil, since you seem to have the most experience with keeping dates and S/Ns straight, why don't you take charge(or at least be a main contributer) to the proposed CWC Date Table?


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## akikuro (May 23, 2008)

Thanks guys for the great info. Being new to the hobby this is what really gets the juices going for me...the detective work that needs to be done to find out more about your bike. I get a better appreciation for it and maybe think twice about doing a full restore on it....


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## RMS37 (May 23, 2008)

Thanks, I'd be happy to take the project on. I'll try to put some things together to build a framework for the project and post here early next week. (I'll have to stop answering questions for a few days and focus!) If anyone else has thoughts please post so we can get a good start.

Phil


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## RMS37 (Jun 3, 2008)

Hi, I just wanted to check in and let everyone know I have been working on text and graphics for the Cleveland Welding serial number project.  I am getting close to the point where I can upload some of this material, probably by late this week or early next week.

I have created a chart to document Cleveland Welding serial numbers along with other pertinent information about each of the bicycles listed. I have also prepared text and graphics that divide prewar CWC production into groups based on frame type.

In the mean time if anyone would like to add their bicycles and serial numbers to this list I suggest the following:

Photograph the bicycle and/or frame from several points.


1.  A clear photograph of the bicycle from both the drive and off sides


2.  A photograph of the bottom of the crank hanger showing any and all serial numbers or other marks. Include enough of the bicycle to show which direction, front to back, the numbers read. Also note your reading of the numbers and symbols; they are often hard to read even in a good photograph.  


3.  Detail photographs of the frame at junctures (in cases where these areas are not clear in the overall photographs.


4.  Photographs of the fork, sheet metal and accessories in cases where the originality of these items is a question.


Numbers 1 and 2 are the most important to accurately build a useful list of CWC serial numbers. Generally a clear photograph of the bicycle will make it possible to relate the model and year of the bicycle to the serial number. This will also make it less likely that non CWC bicycles will slip into the data base. 

Again, in an effort to build the best data base possible, I am requesting that legible photographs of the crank hanger are part of the listing process (This means I have a lot of camera work ahead of me). I have seen many CWC bicycles with several numbers and symbols on the underside of the crank hanger. Along with the serial numbers, charting the ancillary marks may lead to further understanding about CWC production. 

I won?t list bicycles without a photograph of the bike. I will start the list with reported numbers to get it going but those numbers will be moved to a secondary list if photographic representation isn?t provided over time.

As I have a list of my serial numbers I will publish those first. I will add number as I receive them and update the list periodically. I have a column for ownership information if you would like that to be known publicly. 

If you would like to be part of the list but wish to remain anonymous, you can send me information privately and I will only print the portion of that information you are ok with. I will extend this offer to the degree that, with documentation, I am willing to add bicycles to the list, sequentially placed, with blanked numbers if the owner so wishes.

The last point I will make for now is that my knowledge primarily revolves around prewar models, I have as much to learn about post war production as most anyone else. With documentation I will list any CWC-AMF bicycle serial number up to circa 1970 with the idea that patterns will arise to make dating postwar production possible.

Phil Marshall


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## AntonyR (Jun 3, 2008)

*Address*

Phil, where would you like the submissions sent?


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## RMS37 (Jun 3, 2008)

Thanks Antony, 

You can post submissions to this thread or email them directly to me at vbephil@comcast.net

(I'm assuming at this point that entries will trickle in and not overwhelm the CABE). 

Also, if you send information directly to me, please be sure to note if any of the information is meant to remain private.

Phil


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## old hotrod (Jun 3, 2008)

Phil, I have the 37 Speed-badged bike noted elsewhere on these boards that you were so kind to give me info on. Do I still need to send you photos and info or can you get it off that post? Let me know...


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## RMS37 (Jun 4, 2008)

Hi David, 

The photos of the CWC Speed work fine for the general frame and detail photos, Please post or forward a photo of the underside of the crank hanger with the serial number (X12578) so I can add it to the serial number list.

Thanks, Phil


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## old hotrod (Jun 4, 2008)

Probably can't get to it for a while but I will make a note of it...


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## AntonyR (Jun 4, 2008)

*YGM- Pics*

Ok Phil, I sent you plenty of pics of both the RM and the WF. Let me know if it came through all right, and if there's any close-ups or angles that I should add.


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## wave1960 (Jun 15, 2008)

*Hiawatha*

I have a Hiawatha (Cleveland welding) bike that is identical to the roadmaster frames and forks (springer) the serial numbers are followed with a gap and the "53". the drop outs have adjusters and it does not have a skip tooth. 2 speed bendix rear hub (aviator). I am not sure if these items are all original and I know that pics would help. Just thought the offset "53" may be a clue.


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## ejlwheels (Jun 20, 2008)

Here are 2 CWC frames with serial #'s.  I'm pretty sure the girls is post war maybe 50's but not sure about the boys.  

My best read on the girls is B50914__588.
My best read on the boys is F64197.


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## AntonyR (Jun 20, 2008)

girls looks late postwar, '49-50 ish, boys looks early postwar, or late prewar- seat/rear carrier/tank not original to that bike.


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## RMS37 (Jun 20, 2008)

It?s great to see such a response for the call for serial numbers.
I'll add these to the growing list. 

I believe both bikes posted above are postwar as per my reasons below. 

I?m posting a couple of the pictures I have taken of my CWCs for the serial number project to see how they look. If these work I have a few more ready to upload and then it?s back to the garage for more photos. I also have about 40 prewar serial numbers charted but I am still formatting that information so it will post legibly.

I also took the picture of my one postwar frame and ghosted the front of a prewar 3-gill over the top. This shows the most obvious change, the curvature of the down-tube 

Regarding pre and post war differences, I don?t have literature that definitively charts when changes were introduced.  By the time CWC was producing Luxury Liners it appears that most of the postwar changes had been made. Whether or not the very first postwar bicycles incorporated any or all of these differences is one of the areas I hope will become clear as this serial number project develops.

Here are some notes and my opinions at this point on prewar vs. postwar.

Most of the prewar frame styles were not reintroduced when postwar bicycle production resumed.

The boy?s 3-Gill style frame and the standard girls frame both survived WWII but a number of changes were made. Again, I don?t know if all these changes were incorporated in the first postwar production or gradually phased in.

Antony has noted previously, and I agree, that the very first postwar 3-Gills may be the frames that appear to be identical to prewar models but do not have drop-out ears.  Another distinguishing feature of bikes from this (1942?-1946?) period is the appearance of the forged fork with the pinch crown. (Looks sort of early Dayton crossed with Schwinn forged)

The following frame changes were all introduced after the war.

On the boy?s 3-Gill, the postwar model's down-tube curve is deeper and more pronounced (like a prewar girl?s frame.)

The seat clamp was redesigned and has an annular rib pressed into the surface.

The rear dropouts were changed, still rear facing they do not have drop stand ears and incorporate fender brace and chain guard mounting holes.

The rear fender bridges on the frame are open stampings rather than tubular, and contoured to fit the fender. 

As for sheet metal changes, the flush side and comet impressed tanks were both available pre and post war. When equipped with horn buttons early tanks use the larger nickel size delta horn button mounted in a stepped depression on the left side of the tank. Later tanks use the small 1/4? button protruding through a hole on the right side of the tank.  

I don?t know when Delta came out with the smaller button or when CWC incorporated it.
Any Delta experts have info on this? 

The earlier chain-guards gave way to a revision of the 1941 guard with a new mount.

I believe the stamped steel CWC rack with the chevrons is postwar only although I have seen them mounted on prewar bikes. I assume added later, maybe I?m wrong?

More stuff for discussion. 

Enjoy

Phil

Prewar 3-gill, serial number WF 14  K24110  58




 

Postwar 3-Gill, serial number B45580 ACW





Prewar 3-gill front end ghosted over postwar 3-Gill


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## wave1960 (Jul 10, 2008)

*More Info*

My Hiawatha w/ 2 speed aviator. Ser # E86268     53. Pics attached


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## Oldbikes (Jul 10, 2008)

*Phil take a look at this CWC frame/bike...*

Is this pre or post war?  The down tube on this bike -- item #200238268878 on ebay -- is what you described as being pre-war, a gentle curve vs the more pronounced curve, yet does not have rack ears?  

Any thoughts?

Alan


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## AntonyR (Jul 10, 2008)

Closest estimate is '42, mens standard, the latest would be right after the war. With the exception of the drop stand ears, that bike is pure '42.


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## RMS37 (Jul 11, 2008)

As Antony states, the bike on eBay carries all the hallmarks of a prewar frame, minus the drop stand ears. 

Some CWC products are clearly prewar and others are obviously postwar. This bike falls into the grey area between pre and postwar. The only CWC bicycles without drop stand ears that are clearly prewar are the ?All American? models that were mainly sold by Montgomery Ward.  

The ?Three Gill? frame was one of the most popular designs made by CWC and variations of the style were produced before and after the war. There are several changes that were made after the war that will define a frame as not possibly being made before or during the war.  These include the deep curve down tube, the seat post clamp with an annular ring, and stamped, non-tubular rear fender bridges.  

The final frontier for dating 3-Gills is discovering when CWC removed the drop stand ears from the rear dropouts. It may have been a change made in 1942 or it may have happened when bicycle production resumed after WWII.

At this point I am inclined to believe that the style of frame on the eBay bike may have spanned pre and postwar production and could be dated between 1942 and perhaps 1947.

The eBay bike has a Morrow coaster brake stamped P2 which equates to the second quarter of 1946. As components wear out and are often changed, dating a bicycle by the hub is not definitive. Never the less, the hub sways me toward dating the bike as mid to late 1946.

Two other frames to look at are Antony?s black 3-Gill and the 3-Gill of Thaibuddie. Antony?s frame is identical but has the fork with the pinch crown. Thaibuddie?s Mount Tam mountain bike has the same frame and fork as the eBay bike.

The black 3-gill is numbered E51122. We should be able to get Thaibuddie?s number to compare. Anyone care to query the eBay seller for a number?  

As a side note, I am skeptical of the ?original paint? on the eBay bike as it looks like CWC pattern darts are ghosting through the simpler wedge darts on the fenders.


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## RMS37 (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Dave,

E86268 53

Thanks for the CWC detail photos and serial number. Your bike has all the features associated with late forties early fifties frames. It is possible that the 53 in the serial number relates to the year. I don’t have enough postwar serial numbers to say one way or the other at this point. If you have a chance, please post a picture of the entire frame as I can’t tell if it is a 3-Gill or straight-bar from the details. 

What I have so far for postwar numbers is as follows, grouped chronologically by features.

Antony’s orange 3-Gill with pinch crown fork, drop ears, tubular fender bridges, shallow curve downtube (1942?)
*K73395*​
Antony’s black 3-Gill with pinch crown fork,no drop ears (1942?-1946?) 
*E51122*​
3-Gill frames, as above but with standard forged fork. (1946?)
*F52225* (eBay offering, 2005)​ Thaibuddie​ eBay w/Morrow hub (1946?)​
3-Gill, Deep curve down tube
*A95159*​
3-Gill, Deep curve down tube, Seat clamp w/ annular ring
*F64197*​
Rear drops with notch for fender brace, Stamped non-tubular fender bridges
*B45580* ACw​ *B50914 *588​ *E86268* 53​ *G 46436*​
Forward dropouts, flat chain stays
*J48747*​
Coupled with the data I have from prewar frames, my sense is that there are several strings of serial numbers beginning with a letter followed by five numbers that progress alpha-numerically. It appears that more than one of these chains was being used simultaneously at several points in time. 

Without going deeper into speculation I’ll sign-off on the topic for now.

Phil


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## AntonyR (Jul 11, 2008)

Lord, I can't find any rhyme or reason in the S/N system they used back then. The letter designation just seems to be sort of random. Maybe there is more to the numbers that designate date(?) Ya think that it is a cipher, to throw off the enemy back in WWII? Any code-breakers out there wanna give it a shot?


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## RMS37 (Jul 11, 2008)

One more thing for postwar CWC collectors:



 


For those who haven?t found it yet, Google has a search feature available for Patents. Go to Google more, the even more.

While patent dates can be useful for generally dating bicycles and components, the object of the patent may be on the market in some form before that date or may not reach the public until much later. In many cases patents were written and approved for objects and devices that never reached the market (the CWC dashboard and the CWC hydraulic coaster brake)

Phil


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## wave1960 (Jul 11, 2008)

*A Full Frame shot*

I guess I should have thought to take one originally. 

Dave


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## Langsmer (Jul 13, 2008)

Here is my Shapleigh's Special. Note that the handlebars and seat aren't original (The bike is my daily rider so I took them off and stored the because they were not comfortable). In case it isn't to clear in the pictures, the fender braces are tubular and it has a dogleg crank. The serial is B24324.


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## ColsonTwinbar (Jul 14, 2008)

so here are some bikes with serial number I will posting later, along with more detailed pictures.
The two that are build up are either 1935 or 1936 the blue one is 26" with a 17" seatmast which is kind of interesting, the one in the back has a 19".
the frame is 1939 and was black with red darts and white pinstripes.


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## 37fleetwood (Jul 14, 2008)

Ok, here's one for you. I don't know if you have looked at the other post, but here is Godzilla My Rat Rod Bike project. the bike came to me as two halves of a tandem broken by my brother and I when we were young. after I got it I welded the two pieces together and Godzilla was born. I have had this bike like this for just over 10 years and recently decided it would be a great Rat Rod candidate. this bike was originally built by my uncle who used to build antique cars for a living and was made from an old boys front and an old girls rear. I have figured out that the front is a CWC of some sort and the rear was a prewar Colson girls bike. what I'm trying to do is figure out what year the front half is and possibly find a tank for it. I have some photos for you to look at, and I have total confidence that you can figure out this puzzle!
Here's Godzilla!




here's what I'm assuming to be the actual serial number (C22358)



then there are two more sets of numbers
the next one is (LACO K1070)



the final number is (L253-47)



thanx
Scott


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## RMS37 (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi Scott,

I’ve been following the Ratrod posts and without looking closer I had assumed the front end was Huffman due to the configuration of the top tubes. With half the bike missing several of the manufacturing clues are also gone. 

I went back and looked at the pre-paint photos and then overlayed a postwar 3-gill frame on your photo.

I agree that the details of the front half of your bike look like CWC with the exception of the tank aperture. I don’t believe CWC produced a frame with that configuration either pre or postwar.

CWC introduced the deep curve down tube (which matches your bike) postwar so that eliminates all the prewar frame styles. The seat clamp looks like the prewar style which was continued for a while postwar. The combination of those two features would equate to early postwar production provided it is CWC.  

When I overlayed a postwar CWC 3-gill frame the two frames line up pretty well minus the lower top tube.  The two frame styles CWC produced in the 40’s and early 50’s were 3-Gills like Langsmer’s bike and straight-bars like Wave1960’s bike.  There isn’t enough resolution for me to tell but could the rear end of the lower top tube have been repositioned and rewelded when the two frames were joined?

The serial number looks like a CWC stamping. So far, all the “C” numbers collected have been on frames from the late 1937-1938 period. While a “C” postwar number has yet to turn up, A, B, E, F, G, and J have been logged from postwar frames so I wouldn’t be surprised to find a postwar C. 

The 253 47 looks similar to other CWC stampings but these secondary numbers follow so many different patterns that no single meaning works across the boards.

The third set of numbers may be some sort of post purchase stamping like a police registration.

Anyway, in summation, the front end does look like CWC, probably 46-48 or so. The lower top tube placement does not look CWC so maybe it was reconfigured. If it was reconfigured you would have to change it back to fit a CWC tank. If you have access to a 3-Gill tank, check to se if it fits everywhere but at the lower rear. If you need to outsource for a tank to match the frame the ones that come to mind are; prewar Huffman, some pre and postwar Snyder tanks, prewar Murray Elgins, and JCH,

Tank or no, it’s a cool bike; I’ll add it to the CWC serial list in the slightly modified category.  (The poor donor Colson lost its number in the process!) 

Thanks for all the work on the site and good luck in the final Ratrod voting.

And thanks to Langsmer, Wave1960, and ColsonTwinbar  for the additions to the CWC list.

Phil


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## 37fleetwood (Jul 15, 2008)

here is a closer shot before the paint. looking at the bike now the welds don't look any worse than usual.




Scott


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## 37fleetwood (Jul 15, 2008)

here is a photo or two of a girls frame I have. it used to be a complete bike with nice curved brace fenders and all but sadly I had a boys bike that needed the fenders so you know how it is.:o 
serial (F86426)







Scott


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## ColsonTwinbar (Jul 23, 2008)

Here are the S/N's for the bikes I have.


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## wave1960 (Aug 2, 2008)

*New Hawthorne*

Well.....covered in paint and rust, but new to me. Same style frame as my "53"?, same guard with "Hawthorne" as opposed to "Hiawatha". Tank style different. Serial Number H05412  AO. In addition, same "ribbed" seat post clamp.Rear rack also different, in fact looks like it had turn signal indicators in it.Also 1" pitch chain and strait seat post.


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## Richard Eugene Miller (Aug 2, 2008)

RMS37 said:


> Thanks Antony,
> 
> You can post submissions to this thread or email them directly to me at vbephil@comcast.net
> 
> ...



Phil,
Ihave reaquired my boyhood Roadmaster 26 Inch Bicycle.  The name tag says "The Columbus Cycle Spoorting Goods Co., Columbus Ohio, U.S.A.  The number on the Pedle crank housing appears to be X1220.  Is this a Cleveland Welding Company Product.  I need a part for the Morrow Coaster Brake.  Jim Langley reffered me to your site.  I will take pictures and upload them if needed. Richard Eugene Miller


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## old hotrod (Aug 2, 2008)

Richard Eugene Miller said:


> Phil,
> Ihave reaquired my boyhood Roadmaster 26 Inch Bicycle.  The name tag says "The Columbus Cycle Spoorting Goods Co., Columbus Ohio, U.S.A.  The number on the Pedle crank housing appears to be X1220.  Is this a Cleveland Welding Company Product.  I need a part for the Morrow Coaster Brake.  Jim Langley reffered me to your site.  I will take pictures and upload them if needed. Richard Eugene Miller




Please upload as I also have an "X" numbered bike and would like to see if yours is the same frame design as mine. Dave


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## hoosierider (Aug 7, 2008)

Hey folks, first post on here.

I got a bike frame for cheap intending to build it into a Retro BMX/Rat/Cruiser bike, like maybe a Cook Bros. or Powerlite looking frame. (Pic attached for reference)  Then I discovered how old it was, and don't want to offend anybody by not using the thing to it's fullest potential.  Anybody be mad if I build my rat ride?

Anyway, the serial number on the bottom bracket is "H58587" and then there's an "A C" with the little w inside the c.  Would like to know where it fits into the timeframe - my guess is postwar, maybe a '47 or so.

Thanks for helping out another newbie!

Jeff.


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## 37fleetwood (Aug 7, 2008)

I say fix it to however you'll ride it and enjoy.
Scott


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## AntonyR (Aug 7, 2008)

hoosierider said:


> Hey folks, first post on here.
> 
> I got a bike frame for cheap intending to build it into a Retro BMX/Rat/Cruiser bike, like maybe a Cook Bros. or Powerlite looking frame.   Anybody be mad if I build my rat ride?




You'll probably get more support and enthusiasm over at ratrodbikes.com.
That frame is later than '40s, more like mid-late '50s


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## hoosierider (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, I suppose maybe I would.  Still wondering if anybody can specify the year on this thing, just for kicks.  Thanks, Jeff.


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## wave1960 (Aug 8, 2008)

*My Guess....*

Just from what I have seen on this thread and my own CWC frames...Early 50's


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## Richard Eugene Miller (Aug 14, 2008)

old hotrod said:


> Please upload as I also have an "X" numbered bike and would like to see if yours is the same frame design as mine. Dave



I am having difficulty uploading my photos.  One more time.
rickm


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## Jimbo1959 (Aug 16, 2008)

*Cleveland Welding S/N Project*

Phil,

Here are the serial numbers to my car wreck...she is going to be a difficult build to bring back from the dead. I sprayed some Simple Green on her to clean up her residue and dirt from spending 30+ years of being hung up on a wall in a barn and the burgundy (originally red) paint immediately just ran off like it was wet paint in a rain storm. It was like I sprayed turpentine at 900 psi! The paint on the wheels just added to the flood...which makes me wonder if the former owner(s) painted the wheels/fenders to match the frame sometime back. I am not familiar enough with this particular bike/manufacturer to know any different.

The fainted paint is still there, but it seems like I lost half, if not more of the paint job. I'm afraid to do anything more with it. It would be easy to just scrub/sandblast it to kingdom come and repaint it, but I would like to save it if possible, as the two tone paint/stripes will be difficult to recreate by this novice...I really suck at painting.

8-23-2008 - I was sanding down the bike this afternoon for repainting and noticed that what was thought to be a "Z" for the very first letter/number is actually an Upside Down "1"...


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## Boardtrackfan (Aug 17, 2008)

*Ladies Pilot by Cleveland Welding*

Just got this last week.  Looks all original except maybe the grips.  Has chainlink tires and a Troxel leather seat.  Serial number D91 192- is hard to see in the pictures (and to the naked eye)  I did a rubbing to make sure I was reading it correctly. Also, its missing its drop stand.


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## spook1s (Aug 29, 2008)

Hi Phil,
I sent you an e-mail with a couple of my CWC bikes info. I sent it to the address mentioned a bit earlier in this thread. I have 6 CWC bikes and I would like to have their info entered onto your list. I would also like to find out what you and other collectors know about their age and any other info. 
If somebody could shoot me a PM on how to post pics in the forums I will put pics of the bikes with my posts. Thanks!


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## RMS37 (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Spook1s

I received the photos you e-mailed me, to post directly to this forum you need to upload your photos to a hosting site like Flickr (free) and then use the photo insertion tool above the text input box on this site to attach the URL of your photo. 

In general I want to thank everyone who has posted pictures and serial numbers or sent me CWC info over the past month, I’ve been putting time into the LeMay Concours and getting ready for the Iron Ranch swap meet  tomorrow and the Seattle Ratrod build-off and Swap on Sunday. This has put me behind on cataloging the information I’ve received but I should be back in the saddle after the weekend.

While there were no CWC bikes in the winner’s circle at the Concours this year, you can take a look at the pictures of the top 10 bikes posted in the event section .  We had an outstanding Colson representation this year. Next year we will be featuring Huffman-Dayton and Shelby and *CWC will be the featured make for 2010*.

I’ve put together text on the variety of models CWC produced pre-war and I will be posting that soon with a full list of collected serial numbers and some interpretations to follow.


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## socal_jack (Oct 8, 2008)

Here's mine 






S/N looks like X9836 then there a 42 sideways to the left side


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Oct 14, 2008)

*Triplets*

I have three similar Cleveland bikes with the same springer I got this one over the weekend, it is the only one with curved fender braces.  Any idea of the year?  Serial #  B58753  I think this is great!! I will get down to the storage unit and get pics of all the CWC bikes we have several





I really needed the saddle for my Firestone Cruiser now it is complete,  funny how a wrong part was a selling point go figure


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Oct 15, 2008)

*Here are a few more!!*

My Wife Hiawatha I would love to know the year.  The ornament is not original, we got that for it, neither are the handlebars and grips but are closer than the ones we got it with.













Regards,
Shane


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Oct 19, 2008)

*Three Gill*

Here is my tank CWC dont' know the year and I am afraid to guess



















yukk


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## Parker (Oct 19, 2008)

spokecicles  
I get wheel webs


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## AntonyR (Oct 19, 2008)

Strings-n-Spokes said:


> Here is my tank CWC dont' know the year and I am afraid to guess



'50 or so, with a '35ish seat.


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## sailorbenjamin (Jan 30, 2011)

Ok, here's my contribution.  F 13974.  It's got a Morrow blackout hub that's stamped 04 36 13 which I think means 4th quarter of '45 making the bike a Christmas present in '45 or a spring '46.  The front is a New Departure blackout.


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## 1 Speed & No Brakes (Jan 30, 2011)

Here is my contribution;26" Mens Special, 1938 CWC Roadmaster, double-bar roadster. Serial # C68814. There is also a 1 with a crown stamped above the serial number. Bike has a New Departure rear hub and a Troxel Deluxe seat. Currently being restored to origional condition.

-Walt


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## sailorbenjamin (Jan 30, 2011)

Here's my other Roadmaster.  It's got blackout hubs so it must be war vintage, right?  They're ND so no date stamp.  The number on the bb shell is A22865 or maybe A23965.  The bottom of the middle letters is hard to read.











Found this tucked into the handlebar;


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## RMS37 (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi SB,

Thanks for adding these two bikes to the serial number database. The general understanding is that the majority of American Bicycle manufacturers ceased bicycle production in early 1942 and did not resume production until after the end of WW2. The specifics with regard to the individual firms are less well known and open to some speculation. 

Cleveland Welding announced in trade publication ads that bicycle production ceased in February of 1942 so the company could concentrate on the war effort. Rationing and government mandates regarding raw material allocation were put in place at about the same time but were later relaxed to some degree. 

I have yet to find an announcement of when bicycle production resumed at CWC but there is growing evidence that bicycle production at the factory may have restarted as early as 1944. 

The evidence is based on several bicycles with recorded serial numbers and features that chronicle production changes.

*Prewar Serial Numbers*

Regarding serial numbers, the picture that has emerged to date is that most of the prewar production used a serial number system that begins with a letter and is followed by 5 numbers. It appears that these numbers are sequential and the system starts with “A” and proceeds through “K”. The K serial numbers were used in 1941 and then, instead of moving to “L” the system returned to “A”. It is my opinion that these second series “A” bikes and perhaps the end of the “K” series constitute what would be considered the 1942 model line. This line probably entered production in the fall of 1941 and the “A” serialed bikes were likely made at the tail end of 1941 and into the first few months of 1942. 

Your lightweight bike is serialed in this second prewar “A” series and bears the mark of late prewar production with regard to black out parts and the warning of substandard chrome. I have recorded several second series “A” CWC bikes in a wide variety of frame styles with numbers ranging from A08469 to A36218. I have pictures of a second, virtually identical blackout lightweight but do not have a serial number for it yet. It features blackout handlebars, so it is likely a bit later than your bike, probably produced after Torrington threw in the towel on chroming.

Logically the second series “A” bikes would be followed by “B” and “C” bikes but to date no bikes so serialed have turned up. It is possible that these serial numbers were used for a few bicycles built by the factory in 1942-1944 for in-house purposes or as prototypes for the reintroduction of a bicycle line following the end of the war. There is at least patent information that proves some bicycle design work was being carried on at CWC in 1943.

*Postwar Serial Numbers*

This brings us to what I consider the postwar period for CWC although as the dates for some of these bikes become clearer, it is increasingly likely the earliest recoded bikes were built well before the signing of the WW2 armistice. 

After appearing to skip the letters “B” and “C”, the first bicycles to be produced after February 1942 used serial number beginning with the letter “D”.

I have recorded six model 2000 delivery bikes (cycle truck style bikes) with serial numbers under “D” 36000. Closely following those bicycles are two girls models with “D” serial numbers. One of these bikes has a blackout Morrow coaster brake dated N3 which is for Aug/Sept/Oct of 1944.

A side note regarding the “D” bikes is that while they no longer have dropouts with the integral drop stand tangs, the dropouts are attached with visible full surround welds similar to the construction methods used on the prewar bikes. Beginning with the “E” series bikes, the dropouts are attached with invisible spot welds and the end of the frame tubes have a clean end showing no weld bead. 

Following the “D” bikes, I have recorded two bicycles with “E” serial numbers and then five with an “F” serial number. 

The first of the “F” bikes is your bike, F13974, with its Morrow black out hub dated for the last quarter of 1945. Wheels are not necessarily wedded to bikes for life but it is likely both of these bikes are sporting their original wheels. It is also impossible to determine the time between the manufacture of the hub and the time it was built into a wheel and installed at the factory.

What is clear is that if all the “D” and “E” serialed bikes were built out, (the range of earlier and later recoded numbers makes the scenario likely) CWC produced approximately 175,000 bicycles between these two hub dated bicycles and over 200,000 from the earliest recorded delivery model to your 3-Gill. By the late 40’s CWC production was probably close to 500,000 units a year so spreading 200,000 bikes over 1944 and 1945 is a heady return to production but not beyond the realm of believability.

Without factory documentation, the best that can be done is to take all the facts into account and build a believable model of CWC production. As more bikes are recorded and added to the database, it increases the chances that the model is representative of actual CWC production. For those of us that are interested in production dates and numbers (Robert? Brad?) these are heady days indeed! For everyone else this is another post that will help cure insomnia….


----------



## sailorbenjamin (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks! That's about the clearest, most concise answer I've seen regarding 40s Roadmasters.  I've heard lots of hints and allegations but this really sums it up.
Here's another detail I could toss in just for interest.  Look at the difference between the fillets on the top and middle tubes.  I've seen later ('48, I think) advertising extolling 100% electronically welded frames.  I guess this is a transitional frame, looks like the main triangle is electronically welded and the rest is fillet brazed.  The bottom bracket is all fillet brazed, by the way, even the chainstays.


----------



## halfatruck (Feb 20, 2011)

*Cleveland Welding Serial number addition*

I've got an addition to the Cleveland Welding Serial number list. Picture is of a Fleetwing serial number D73867, Year?
Thanks


----------



## BWbiker (Feb 20, 2011)

RMS37 said:


> Hi SB,
> 
> Thanks for adding these two bikes to the serial number database. The general understanding is that the majority of American Bicycle manufacturers ceased bicycle production in early 1942 and did not resume production until after the end of WW2. The specifics with regard to the individual firms are less well known and open to some speculation.
> 
> ...



 Yes sir I am taking notes! Brad


----------



## halfatruck (Feb 20, 2011)

Looks like the dropouts are attached using a 'spot weld' to me - is this correct? If so where does this place the bike pictured (before refurbishing) as it appears that spot welds started after the D series?
Thanks

A side note regarding the “D” bikes is that while they no longer have dropouts with the integral drop stand tangs, the dropouts are attached with visible full surround welds similar to the construction methods used on the prewar bikes. Beginning with the “E” series bikes, the dropouts are attached with invisible spot welds and the end of the frame tubes have a clean end showing no weld bead.


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## pete33 (Feb 20, 2011)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K:MEWAX:IT

I have this bike with this s/n# C47274, what is it? CWC?


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## pete33 (Feb 20, 2011)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K:MEWAX:IT

Sorry, better link for above.

CWC s/n# C47274


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## RMS37 (Feb 21, 2011)

Hi Halfatruck,

The key to dating your bike is the Cw symbol stamped after the end of the serial number. CWC ran through the same serial numbers several times from 1935 through 1956 and for postwar bikes the key to dating them is to first recognize the features that define them as postwar frames and then look for the symbol that follows the serial number. Bikes with the Cw stamp were from the second postwar run through the alphabet and the first bikes in this series rarely have the Cw stamp. By the time “D” was reached the suffix stamp became quite commonplace, probably to begin separating the series from the first wartime or postwar “D” serialed bikes. My best data-modeled estimate is that the Cw series was produced from 1947 through 1949. The exact transition from the first series to the second series is still debatable so I have slid the scale a bit several times to try to align it with actual bikes, ads, and other factors to come up with the most likely scenario. The second postwar serial number series bikes were produced with serial numbers ranging from A00001 through J99999, assumedly in sequence. A bike with a “D” serial number would, following this logic, have a build date in approximately mid 1948.


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## RMS37 (Feb 21, 2011)

Hi Pete33, I wasn’t able to get either link to work to view your bike, as I noted in the previous post, C47274 is not enough to know if the bike is CWC or to discern the year it was produced as CWC used the same serial numbers more than once. Many times serial numbers are reported without the key suffix and even if there is no suffix and the bike is a CWC product, that serial number could be on bikes from 1937-38 or 1947-48.


----------



## pete33 (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks Phil,
I'll see if I can post a couple photos and gather a little more info.  I'm just curious what the heck it is or was!


----------



## halfatruck (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks Phil, I was thinking somewhere in that timeline '47-'49...........................


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## ericks37 (Mar 9, 2011)

*Another post war*

First post, recently picked up a Hawthorne complete bike (except for the seat), though it looks like the many of the original components have been swapped out for Schwinn stuff.  Looking at converting it to a klunker type mtn bike.  This thread has been very useful for dating the bike, looks like another postwar '47-'49.  As I read it, the serial number is B06866 Cw.


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## ericks37 (Mar 11, 2011)

The one thing I haven't been able to pin down with the Hawthornes is the various models... does anyone know what model the red Hawthorne I have is?  The paint is certainly not original and there are swapped out parts, but the frame is a Cleveland Welding.


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## RMS37 (Mar 11, 2011)

Your analysis is correct, the frame is a CWC built unit and dates from approximately 1947-1949. Hawthornes were produced by several suppliers at that time and the only catalog references I have seen shows only the Snyder produced models so there is no way I know of to pin down the exact specification or even the range of variations produced by CWC for Montgomery Ward at that time. Generically your bike has a second series postwar CWC 3-Gill frame and if it was originally fully equipped, it may have had the postwar 3-gill tank with the impressed comets.


----------



## ericks37 (Mar 14, 2011)

Thank you for the feedback on the frame... so CWC only produced the frames, Wards assembled the bikes themselves (or had another company do it)?


----------



## spstar (Mar 21, 2011)

Here I have a "C" bike that I acquired back in the 90's gave it to my dad as a retirement joke and has been hanging in his Garage ever since. My daughter thought it would be fun to fix up, wasn't sure what it was till I found this site. Any help with what to do and age would be much appreciated 
thanks
 Scot and Laura


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## ratina (Mar 21, 2011)

spstar said:


> Here I have a "C" bike that I acquired back in the 90's gave it to my dad as a retirement joke and has been hanging in his Garage ever since. My daughter thought it would be fun to fix up, wasn't sure what it was till I found this site. Any help with what to do and age would be much appreciated
> thanks
> Scot and Laura




52CW in the serial number makes it a 1952. Is it a 24" bike? The fork is really bent if you didn't notice.


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## spstar (Mar 21, 2011)

yes, I knew about the fork and yes it is a 24" 
thanx ratina for helping me with the serial #


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## ratina (Mar 22, 2011)

spstar said:


> yes, I knew about the fork and yes it is a 24"
> thanx ratina for helping me with the serial #




No problem. Good luck fixing it up!


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## vaau (Mar 26, 2011)

*A90802  54cw*

I believe the last two characters are a capital 'C' with an enclosed small 'w'.  Kind of odd?

The mystery issues from my perspective:
1) Both CURVED top tubes and the tank seem to indicate pre-AMF Roadmaster
2) The badge, however, is an AMF Roadmaster badge

The front hand brake will be removed and discarded.

I just got the bike and am trying to get up to speed on dating/SNs.


----------



## tobytyler (Mar 26, 2011)

i'd say 1954  i posted a pictere of a Cw 53 and lo and behold it was a 53 roadmaster hope i'm right cool bike toby t.


----------



## vaau (Mar 26, 2011)

Hey Toby. Thanks for the reply. I 'guestimated' early 1950's. Do you know what year the AMF Roadmaster started having a straight tube for the lower of the two top tubes?  All my searches for 1950's AMF Roadmasters show a straight 2nd tube. Any idea what year AMF stopped using this badge which to my eye looks like an upside down CWC badge?


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## tobytyler (Mar 26, 2011)

no i don't but see if you can get a hold of roadmaster phil on the cabe he can answer all your questions about most cwc bikes he gave me a lot of answers good luck toby t.


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## vaau (Mar 27, 2011)

tobytyler said:


> no i don't but see if you can get a hold of roadmaster phil on the cabe he can answer all your questions about most cwc bikes he gave me a lot of answers good luck toby t.





Toby, I found this prior post by Phil, addressing the 'CW' issue:

_



			The key to dating your bike is the Cw symbol stamped after the end of the serial number. CWC ran through the same serial numbers several times from 1935 through 1956 and for postwar bikes the key to dating them is to first recognize the features that define them as postwar frames and then look for the symbol that follows the serial number. Bikes with the Cw stamp were from the second postwar run through the alphabet and the first bikes in this series rarely have the Cw stamp. By the time “D” was reached the suffix stamp became quite commonplace, probably to begin separating the series from the first wartime or postwar “D” serialed bikes. My best data-modeled estimate is that the Cw series was produced from 1947 through 1949. The exact transition from the first series to the second series is still debatable so I have slid the scale a bit several times to try to align it with actual bikes, ads, and other factors to come up with the most likely scenario. The second postwar serial number series bikes were produced with serial numbers ranging from A00001 through J99999, assumedly in sequence. A bike with a “D” serial number would, following this logic, have a build date in approximately mid 1948.
		
Click to expand...


_


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## vaau (Mar 27, 2011)

Based on Phil's 'CW' post I am considering the possibility that the bike pictured in my 3-29-11 1:06pm post was produced by CWC *before* AMF purchased CWC. The bike may have been in CWC inventory at the time the CWC/AMF deal closed (i.e., AMF now owned CWC and their inventory of un-sold bikes). Then, AMF attached the AMF badge to the bikes in inventory to mark their ownership, prior to selling the bikes to the public.  ???????????

Warning: This is the working hypothesis of someone who knows nothing about old bikes-ME !


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## tobytyler (Mar 27, 2011)

hey i live in cleveland i talked to a guy the other day whose grandfather was the superintendant at cwc in the late 30's his father worked there in the office his grandfather took him there as a kid. he told me a lot about the early history and how they ran things and some good stories also. if your into cwc e mail me at the cabe   toby t.   like those roadmaster's


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## vaau (Apr 15, 2011)

to the front


----------



## tobytyler (Apr 15, 2011)

what does that mean?


----------



## vaau (Apr 16, 2011)

Our form was getting buried due to lack of posts.


----------



## vaau (Apr 16, 2011)

Rather, "our forum" (on CABE)


----------



## sdjoe86 (May 12, 2011)

hey whats up fellas, I just bought this on ebay about a week ago. I believe it is a 37' Roadmaster. I know that the wheels are not originals and neither is the front fender, The serial number is C43051 with half of the 1 not there?? there is a single "1" stamped above this # anyways, here are some pics.


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## hstavn (May 15, 2011)

i just got a bike with the serial number E26253 i have pics in the forum the post is listed help with these 2 24" bikes anyone know the year


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## sdjoe86 (May 30, 2011)

Bump??....


----------



## jpromo (May 31, 2011)

What about CWC-made Shelbys? The S/n on my 50s Flyer looks similar to others here: A14798


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## scrubbinrims (May 31, 2011)

Hello,
Last week, I pulled the trigger on this one fast with a BIN offer on ebay...probably paid too much, but it was my birthday and although postwar and not a deluxe model, I was immediately addicted to the original paint and detail.
It came with a little trinket, a handlebar mount "St. Christopher, by my guide"...my namesake, fate maybe???
I added some fresh royal chains and leather troxel (came off prewar cwc), and meteor 3 pedals are being serviced and not shown.
Anyway, I think it is a 1950, but the serial number of G37108 ACw will help pin it down.
Chris


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## Adamtinkerer (Jun 1, 2011)

sdjoe86 said:


> hey whats up fellas, I just bought this on ebay about a week ago. I believe it is a 37' Roadmaster. I know that the wheels are not originals and neither is the front fender, The serial number is C43051 with half of the 1 not there?? there is a single "1" stamped above this # anyways, here are some pics.




Phil/rms37 will have to confirm this, but I believe that's referred to as the 'bent tank' frame, and it's shown in a 1938 Hawthorne ad, I think it came out that year and was made through 1941. They used A-K numbers several times over those years, I defer to Phil for a closer guess. Just wanted to give you what I know.


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## Adamtinkerer (Jun 1, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> Hello,
> Last week, I pulled the trigger on this one fast with a BIN offer on ebay...probably paid too much, but it was my birthday and although postwar and not a deluxe model, I was immediately addicted to the original paint and detail.
> It came with a little trinket, a handlebar mount "St. Christopher, by my guide"...my namesake, fate maybe???
> I added some fresh royal chains and leather troxel (came off prewar cwc), and meteor 3 pedals are being serviced and not shown.
> ...


----------



## Adamtinkerer (Jun 1, 2011)

jpromo said:


> What about CWC-made Shelbys? The S/n on my 50s Flyer looks similar to others here: A14798




AMF, who bought CWC, bought Shelby in late 53 I think, so a 54-7 AMF Shelby would have a 54-6 Cw stamp after the serial. Might be later, they used the Shelby name through 1962. Pics would help.


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## tobytyler (Jul 24, 2011)

1941/42 roadmaster adding to data


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## jpromo (Sep 12, 2011)

What I believe is a 1945 Roadmaster. Curved braces, peaked fenders, no dropstand tang, painted rims, no options = very early postwar D code?


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## Boris (Sep 12, 2011)

You'll be looking for this style chainguard and I'm pretty sure that someone put the wrong stem on yours. Pay no attention to the tank, rack and strut rods in my photo as they are not correct for my "E63144" code early post war Hawthorne. If I'm reading the chart correctly, yours is indeed a 1945 manufactured during the first half of the year, mine was manufactured in the latter half of 1945. If I'm not reading the chart correctly, I'll most certainly hear about it.


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## Barkeep (Sep 15, 2011)

Here is my submission to the project. Western flyer badged, thought to be 1938.

 First off the serial...






Side shot...





Front fender brace mount...





Neck and fork...





exploded view...



 

Ill quote Phil here from my other thread as its more pertinent...

”Cleveland Welding produced, the frame pattern is the later variation of their Double Bar Roadster model (DBR) which is what I refer to as a “rainbow” style balloon frame based on the parallel curved top tubes.

The DBR style frames were among the first frames produced by CWC when they entered bicycle manufacturing in the fall of 1935 and variations of this design were produced by CWC at least as late as 1940. Using the model I developed, pairing serial numbers against projected build dates, I estimate that C94173 was produced in 1938.

There are a number of differences between the construction of the earliest and the later CWC DBR frames that can help date bikes even without knowing the serial number.

CWC redesigned the juncture of the seat stays and crank hanger for all their frames near the end of 1937 and this visually separates 1936 frames from 1937 frames. During 1937, the lower top tube was repositioned to allow more space between the two top tubes and a tank was manufactured to fit the new larger opening. The tank is hard to find. It is exclusive to CWC and to this frame and probably less than 5% of the DBR frames left the factory with a tank.

 C94173 appears to be generally stock and original. The chain guard, the saddle, and the kickstand are all aftermarket additions. The bike would have originally used a CWC pattern braced dropstand and may not have been factory equipped with a chain guard.”


And a post refresh side view (temp front wheel)...


----------



## cdavid67 (Sep 15, 2011)

*CWC Trail Blazer*

Hello all!

I am new to this hobby. I recently rebuilt a 57 Schwinn balloon tire tank bike but most of it was missing so I had frame powder coated and bought new modern Felt wheels and tires for it. I will post pics later on the Schwinn portion of this forum.

I recently aquired this gem which was found tucked away in a little garage and owned by a little old lady. I know it is a CWC Trail Blazer but that's all I know for sure. A neighbor of mine has extensive knowlege of old bikes and is also baffled by some of the parts. He thought the front wheel looks like it's from a tandem because of the large hub and he also questioned the srocket because he thought it should probably have a skip tooth. I'm pretty certain the bars are not stock. I'll definitely change those out! He was guessing at a 40's era because of the rear drop out chain adjusters. Please help me identify the year, the correct parts and possibly lead me to some good pics of other Trail Blazers. Check out the "w" stamped inside the "C" on the bottom bracket!


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## cdavid67 (Sep 15, 2011)

*CWC Trail Blazer*

More pictures. Just double click on each pic to enlarge them.


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## jpromo (Sep 15, 2011)

I think I remember seeing that the A Cw was only stamped that way in '50 and '51 or '51 and '52; can't remember which but it can probably be found somewhere in the life of this thread


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## creepn (Sep 18, 2011)

*new here*

hello all im new here and came across a Hawthorne bike the model number im seeing is 94eh it took alot of work getting to the number as someone had painted over it many times..all i really know about the bike is it belonged to my uncle in the early 50's and he got it from a friend of the family any help on age?


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## Pressed Steel 1915 (Nov 7, 2011)

*CWC  Serial Number>Pre-War*

#'s  359875

I bet the paint job was 50 years in the making.


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## RMS37 (Nov 8, 2011)

Pressed Steel 1915 said:


> #'s 359875




The first character is actually a poorly stamped "B". B59875 places the frames production in about mid 1937.


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## mrfxst (Dec 28, 2011)

*AMF roadmaster*

Please help ID the year of this bike. 
serial # C12938     56
Thanks


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## ratina (Jan 2, 2012)

mrfxst said:


> Please help ID the year of this bike.
> serial # C12938     56
> Thanks





1956. Awesome bike!


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## OldRider (Jan 2, 2012)

1956.......would that have been one of the last CWC bikes produced?


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## ratina (Jan 2, 2012)

OldRider said:


> 1956.......would that have been one of the last CWC bikes produced?




Thats when they moved to Arkansas, so I would assume thats the last year. Then they just went by AMF


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## DonChristie (Jan 6, 2012)

I guess I am late to the party but here is my entry. After reading 12 pages of info, i think this is a 1937. Serial number is D43208.


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## John A Kinnee (Jan 11, 2012)

*1936 Cleveland Welding Pilot???*

Hi, I found this gem at an estate sale this summer and now that I'm laid off I have time to research it.Family said they found it in the attic and didn't even know their dad had it. Local bike shop sanded the bottom and told them it was a 1950's Monark??  After reading through the thread, I think this bike has an interesting serial number: A19361. Could a case be made that this is type A? year 1936? number 1???   I know from the photos it looks like an 8 in the serial number but in person it definitely looks more like a 3. I'm uploading a bunch of photo's in case some one has the answer?? Either way I intend to at least get some inner tubes into it and ride it.


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## RMS37 (Jan 12, 2012)

Pilot was one of many sub-brandings for Cleveland Welding. This bike is essentially the same as a companion Roadmaster. 

  The serial number A19361, is comprised of a letter followed by five digits that were stamped sequentially with no additional special coding inferred by the digits. CWC began bicycle production in the fall of 1936, presumably with bike A00001 and moved on through the A series up to A99999 before beginning the sequence again with B00001. 

  Adding some confusion to the strict sequential decoding of these early “A” and “ B” serialed bicycles, is the inclusion of “X” and “Z” serial numbers which also appear to have been produced during 1936/1937. All the early “A”, “X”, and “Z” bikes are similar but some distinctive features on “A” bikes serialed under A11000 have lead me to believe  the “X” and “Z” bikes are later rather than earlier.  

  I have recorded enough “A” serial numbers at this point to assume the entire run of 100,000 bikes were likely built out. It is possible that the crank hanger numbers were stamped in the blanks and entered and left the production line somewhat randomly but numerically, the serial number signifies that this is the 19,361[SUP]st[/SUP] Cleveland Welding bicycle constructed and probably dates to roughly the first quarter of 1936. 

  This bike is a good comparison with the bike previously listed (D43208, late 1938) showing how the lower top tube was repositioned on later versions (during late 1937) of the CWC double bar roadster frame to make room for a tank.


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## James (Jan 17, 2012)

*Cleveland Welding  Find*

I found this Cleveland Welding badged Roadmaster and was wondering if someone could shed some light on the year and maybe a picture of what it is supose to look like.I have searched Roadmaster pictures and can only find bikes with the double top tubes. The number under the crank is H60584. Thanks for your help.


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## Jax (Jan 28, 2012)

Hello all!Newbie has bikes and the web led me here!Both bikes are ladies and both are incomplete.The newer of the two has serial #F34202 and has a New Departure coaster brake.It has no springer and the chrome skirt around the top of the fork has me thinking?The older of the two has no serial # I can find.Am I looking in the wrong place.I looked under the bottom bracket and I'm not seeing it.I will post pics tomorrow.

  Great site!Thanks in advance for any help.

    Brett


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## dkemxr (Feb 1, 2012)

*Roadmaster S/N addition*

Picked this up recently. Scary paint job but it looks like it has potential. Any help with the year would be appreciated. S/N looks to be H79218.


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## 1959firearrow (Feb 1, 2012)

I have had/have some CWC built bikes(pretty sure) The first up is a 24 inch bike I never knew much about and recently sold serial number A99819 54Cw. I have two more to add but I will have to get some serial number pics first.


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## ratina (Feb 2, 2012)

1959firearrow said:


> I have had/have some CWC built bikes(pretty sure) The first up is a 24 inch bike I never knew much about and recently sold serial number A99819 54Cw. I have two more to add but I will have to get some serial number pics first.




Thats a 1954.


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## 1959firearrow (Feb 2, 2012)

Well be prepared cause I have 4 more to post right now starting with my this CWC built Wards Hawthorne Serial Number E94219


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## ratina (Feb 2, 2012)

1959firearrow said:


> Well be prepared cause I have 4 more to post right now starting with my this CWC built Wards Hawthorne Serial Number E94219




Pretty sure its 1940


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## 1959firearrow (Feb 2, 2012)

Then this White CWC Built Wards Hathorne(I think, The headbadge ghost matches the bike I just posted in shape and screw location) Serial Number C44137


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## ratina (Feb 2, 2012)

1959firearrow said:


> Then this White CWC Built Wards Hathorne(I think, The headbadge ghost matches the bike I just posted in shape and screw location) Serial Number C44137




its a 1938


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## 1959firearrow (Feb 2, 2012)

This was a CWC Roadmaster mens bike sadly converted to a girls bike. Serial Number H61891


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## ratina (Feb 2, 2012)

1959firearrow said:


> This was a CWC Roadmaster mens bike sadly converted to a girls bike. Serial Number H61891




Looks like a 46, maybe early 47


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## ratina (Feb 2, 2012)

James said:


> I found this Cleveland Welding badged Roadmaster and was wondering if someone could shed some light on the year and maybe a picture of what it is supose to look like.I have searched Roadmaster pictures and can only find bikes with the double top tubes. The number under the crank is H60584. Thanks for your help.View attachment 38376View attachment 38377View attachment 38378View attachment 38379View attachment 38380View attachment 38381View attachment 38382View attachment 38383




Looks like a 51 Roadmaster with the bottom tube cut off. Is there an ACw stamped after the serial number?


----------



## ratina (Feb 2, 2012)

Jax said:


> Hello all!Newbie has bikes and the web led me here!Both bikes are ladies and both are incomplete.The newer of the two has serial #F34202 and has a New Departure coaster brake.It has no springer and the chrome skirt around the top of the fork has me thinking?The older of the two has no serial # I can find.Am I looking in the wrong place.I looked under the bottom bracket and I'm not seeing it.I will post pics tomorrow.
> 
> Great site!Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> Brett




Welcome! post up some pictures so we can help you better


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## 1959firearrow (Feb 2, 2012)

And lastly is this Is possibly a CWC roadmaster based on where the head badge screws are The only things original to this bike are the frame and Possibly chain ring and crank. The rest is all Monark and assembled by me, the rear of this frame is rusted out in quite a few spots but I do plan on Fixing it someday I only paid $2 for it so I couldn't go wrong. Serial Number G15051 Cw


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## ratina (Feb 2, 2012)

1959firearrow said:


> And lastly is this Is possibly a CWC roadmaster based on where the head badge screws are The only things original to this bike are the frame and Possibly chain ring and crank. The rest is all Monark and assembled by me, the rear of this frame is rusted out in quite a few spots but I do plan on Fixing it someday I only paid $2 for it so I couldn't go wrong. Serial Number G15051 Cw




48 or 49, I'm not sure where the break is


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## 1959firearrow (Feb 2, 2012)

Thanks for the help Ratina, I think from now on its CWC built or nothing for me something about the shapes of these bikes is a real hit with me. Heck in the last 5 months Ive found 5 and bought each one without hesitation. I really like them and its about time I picked a brand to stick to.This is a great thread and I'm subscribed hope I helped a little with the vin database deal. By the way how is that coming along is there a site yet?


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## ratina (Feb 2, 2012)

1959firearrow said:


> Thanks for the help Ratina, I think from now on its CWC built or nothing for me something about the shapes of these bikes is a real hit with me. Heck in the last 5 months Ive found 5 and bought each one without hesitation. I really like them and its about time I picked a brand to stick to.This is a great thread and I'm subscribed hope I helped a little with the vin database deal. By the way how is that coming along is there a site yet?




No problem. Once I got my first CWC it was all over. I have 6 of them now. Nothing beats the styling of these bikes in my opinion. 

Not sure if anyone is making a website

I have a gallery thread on rat rod bikes, feel free to post your pics there  http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34042


----------



## 1959firearrow (Feb 2, 2012)

Will do, I was just wondering If RMS37 has compiled a list that would be open to us to see and look at?


----------



## Pressed Steel 1915 (Feb 3, 2012)

*More Cleveland Welding #'s*

One more for the project.

1937 CWC = All American. ( B04670 )

Missing drop stand/clip, reflector, grips.


----------



## Jax (Feb 6, 2012)

OK,I have the pics,can y'all direct me to a sticky thread on uploading pics?Do I need to host them elsewhere?What are the size requirements?Thanks!

   Brett


----------



## 1959firearrow (Feb 8, 2012)

That is pretty sweet looking, Wish the 38 hawthorne I have was that complete. Love the long spring saddle.


----------



## Jeff1961 (Feb 10, 2012)

*CWC Hiawatha ID help*

First post here guys. Great job with all the info compiled. On to the bike. 

It's an obvious repaint, originally red, bars and stem replaced plus a wheel rebuild but everything else "seems" original.  # G81012 Cw
From what I've compiled it's a post war frame but that's about it. If in fact I can date it I'd love to find some original catalog scans from that period. One more edit. The fender holes on the rear drop outs are in fact holes and not notches.

Thanks in advance,
Jeff 

https://picasaweb.google.com/jsalba...authkey=Gv1sRgCOfDgP714Ima6AE&feat=directlink


----------



## Jax (Feb 21, 2012)

Any advice for pic posting?Threads?


----------



## bicyclebones (Feb 21, 2012)

*Roadmaster Supreme*

Can you help me identify a Roadmaster Supreme I just got?  Dan 620.795.2277  sales@bicyclebones.com


----------



## ratina (Feb 22, 2012)

Jeff1961 said:


> First post here guys. Great job with all the info compiled. On to the bike.
> 
> It's an obvious repaint, originally red, bars and stem replaced plus a wheel rebuild but everything else "seems" original.  # G81012 Cw
> From what I've compiled it's a post war frame but that's about it. If in fact I can date it I'd love to find some original catalog scans from that period. One more edit. The fender holes on the rear drop outs are in fact holes and not notches.
> ...




The serial number makes it late 48, early 49 but I think the fork is a few years newer. What are the numbers on the headbadge?


----------



## Jeff1961 (Feb 22, 2012)

No numbers on the head badge Ratina. The fork looks to be CWC built though and has the original red on the steer tube. At this point I'm looking for images of like year models so I can come up with paint schemes ect. Not much out there on these Hiawatha's.
Thanks again,
Jeff


----------



## m4travel (Feb 24, 2012)

Lord, I can't find any rhyme or reason in the S/N system they used back then. The letter designation just seems to be sort of random. Maybe there is more to the numbers that designate date(?) Ya think that it is a cipher, to throw off the enemy back in WWII? Any code-breakers out there wanna give it a shot?


----------



## rickpaulos (Apr 22, 2012)

*AMF Roadmaster Cleveland Welding frame/fork*

I've owned this frame for many years.  Just found this thread via google despite being a cabe member for many years too.  I just took a bunch of photos for someone at ratrods and put them on photobucket.
http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r198/rickpaulos/AMF Roadmaster Cleveland Welding/

Notes:
Serial Number A78550
forward dropouts, no screws.
expanding seat post, frame has no seat post clamp or slot to accommodate one.
original paint and decals.
frame, fork, headset, seat post is all I have.
Nice font on the serial number.

After reading more of this thread more closely, I realize there are more numbers or letters on the bb shell.  I'll need to clean the shell a bit more to be able to read them.

I'm guessing 1950 to 1953 period.  AMF bought Roadmaster from CWC in 1950, transferred production from Ohio to Arkansas in 1953.  I would think they would not put the Cleveland decal on in Little Rock.  Also the horizontal dropouts are typically newer than the rear ward facing type with or without screws.

rick


----------



## RMS37 (Apr 23, 2012)

It looks like the serial number suffix begins with “55” which means the frame is from 1955. That matches the pattern of the frame with the forward dropouts, the flat chainstays, and the smaller diameter secondary top tube. AMF purchased Cleveland Welding in 1951 and didn’t move production to Little Rock Arkansas until 1956.


----------



## rickpaulos (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks Phil.  Now on to what may be an obvious question.  Are there any on line catalog scans or adverts?  Rick


----------



## Steve K (Apr 25, 2012)

*Very Old CWC bicycle serial No.*

Getting ready to take my very early CWC Roadmaster to the Eden NC bicycle show and swap meet next month.
Figured I'd add to the serial number information here.
Serial number is 16176.
I had posted pics back in December when I first found the bike in Asheville, NC.
I have since removed the basket and just worked on cleaning this beautiful old survivor up.
Had been painted with a red enamel by some previous owner.(including head badge(
NFS.
Thanks 
Steve K


----------



## Steve K (Apr 25, 2012)

*Early CWC Serial No.*

I needed to scrape some more paint off to get a better read on the above serial No. 
The 5 digit number I stated was incorrect.
The last 4 numbers are: 1676, but the initial letter/number combo is difficult to discern.
It looks like the no. 2 turned 90 deg as well as the letter Z. 
Had my daughter's younger eyes look at it and she sees a very faint impression of the no. 3 next to the 2 partially into the small Z.
Any clues???
Thanks
Steve K


----------



## Justadream (Jun 28, 2012)

*24" Cleveland what year & model?*

Hi I have a 24" cleveland the serial#is J08407 AC
can any body help me Thanks justadream


----------



## ratina (Jun 28, 2012)

Justadream said:


> Hi I have a 24" cleveland the serial#is J08407 AC
> can any body help me Thanks justadream




It is a 1951


----------



## Buster1 (Jul 10, 2012)

My "new" 3-Gill arrived.  Pics of the numbers soon, but it appears to be: C40109 (there is a scratch on the "C" that makes it look like a G, but I'm fairly certain it's a C)

C was '38 I believe (and according to RMS37/Phil), but need to research some more.


----------



## mwg (Jul 16, 2012)

I'm new here and could use some help identifying this bike.. My 16 yo daughter picked it up at a garage sale for herself. I would like to ID it and find a few of the missing parts. It has A75018 G stampe don the bottom bracket. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike


----------



## funkymonkeys409 (Aug 24, 2012)

i got this project and i would like to find the year. started to be built into a Roadmaster. cant vouch for anything being original


----------



## Mole (Aug 24, 2012)

Not sure if mine got in here or not.   


Spraybombed red.


----------



## TexasJeff2855 (Sep 30, 2012)

*Roadmaster Weekend Find 1938?*

I am guessing 1938, based on some of this thread that I can decipher.  However, the upsidedown headbadge makes me suspicious about the whole thing.  I am wondering if the rear rack is correct as well.  The rear reflector has "BIKE" letters on it.  Comments?  Thanks!


----------



## RMS37 (Sep 30, 2012)

TexasJeff2855 said:


> I am guessing 1938, based on some of this thread that I can decipher.  However, the upsidedown headbadge makes me suspicious about the whole thing.  I am wondering if the rear rack is correct as well.  The rear reflector has "BIKE" letters on it.  Comments?  Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 67871View attachment 67872View attachment 67873View attachment 67874View attachment 67875




The serial number, (a prewar "F") places the frame in about the middle of 1940. 

By the end of 1940, four different full size 26” women’s frames were in production at CWC:

1.   The last of the Supremes (though no longer called a Supreme, the top of the line girl's frame was still in production with twin braces beneath the tank.)

2.   A similar Deluxe frame with the upswept stays but only one brace beneath the tank

3.   This frame (the design of which dates to 1937) with the straight chain stay rear

4.   And, the first of the new 1941 girl’s frames which feature a completely redesigned front frame and tank.

While this is the most basic of those four frames, many of these were produced optioned-up with a springer and deluxe sheet metal so this bike may be quite original.

Beyond the serial number, the date of this bike could be no earlier than 1940 based on both the fork mounted headlight and the use of the twisted heart chain ring, both of which were first introduced by CWC that year.


----------



## Leroy Ostrander (Oct 8, 2012)

*CL Find Roadmaster*

I picked up my first Roadmaster today. Besides the aftermarket "beanie weanie" wald crank and the 7 inch Reese Bicycle lock--I'm not sure what else is unoriginal to the bike. The wheels are 24 x 2.125 36 spoke, both New Departure hubs. Rear was a Model D with the oiler port. The front tire was a Goodyear Deluxe All Weather and rear was a Pennsylvania Athletic Products. Serial number B94896


----------



## RMS37 (Oct 8, 2012)

Leroy Ostrander said:


> I picked up my first Roadmaster today. Besides the aftermarket "beanie weanie" wald crank and the 7 inch Reese Bicycle lock--I'm not sure what else is unoriginal to the bike. The wheels are 24 x 2.125 36 spoke, both New Departure hubs. Rear was a Model D with the oiler port. The front tire was a Goodyear Deluxe All Weather and rear was a Pennsylvania Athletic Products. Serial number B94896
> 
> View attachment 68845View attachment 68846View attachment 68847View attachment 68848




The serial number dates this bike to early 1947.


----------



## Leroy Ostrander (Oct 9, 2012)

What model Phil?


----------



## triola (Nov 19, 2012)

*Just picked her up.*

Just picked this one up from Monroe, MI.
It has been brush painted black. The fenders have obviously been painted. Seat doesn't look stock to me. It was only $90.00 
My first vintage bike.
What year?
Ser. #F04070

Thanks,
Bill


----------



## ratina (Nov 19, 2012)

triola said:


> Just picked this one up from Monroe, MI.
> It has been brush painted black. The fenders have obviously been painted. Seat doesn't look stock to me. It was only $90.00
> My first vintage bike.
> What year?
> ...




Keep scraping that serial number, there is more to the right


----------



## triola (Nov 20, 2012)

ratina said:


> Keep scraping that serial number, there is more to the right




After more scraping, there appears to be a poorly stamped A8 or 9 
Ser. #F04070  A8 or  9

Hope that helps


----------



## triola (Nov 25, 2012)

Any thoughts guys? 
I have been going through pictures on the net trying to compare my bike to the ones I have been seeing. Found multiple old ads from 1947 that have the same chain guard, fenders and skip tooth sprocket. Did my bike possibly come with a tank, and the front strut looking things on the fork down tube?
This is the bike that seems to somewhat match my bike. 
http://www.nostalgic.net/1947-roadmaster-luxury-liner
I don't even know where else to begin to find more info.

Thanks,
Bill


----------



## OldRider (Nov 25, 2012)

Triola, I'm not sure but your chainring doesn't look correct, it looks like an Elgin( Murray) ring.


----------



## triola (Nov 25, 2012)

I am new to this. So when you say chainring, are you referring to where the chain attaches to the crankcase? 
You may be right. I appreciate your info. I found an ad for a 1947 CWC Roadmaster Luxury Liner. The chain ring is a match.


----------



## PeterScherer (Dec 1, 2012)

*Well, in that case...*

I was just informed that my bike is a Cleveland Welding Co. model, the serial # on the bottom of the crankcase is G(or C)82161 followed by a 52 and the funky "W". What year is this bike? Can someone help me find an original chain-guard for it?
Thanks,
Peter


----------



## ratina (Dec 3, 2012)

PeterScherer said:


> I was just informed that my bike is a Cleveland Welding Co. model, the serial # on the bottom of the crankcase is G(or C)82161 followed by a 52 and the funky "W". What year is this bike? Can someone help me find an original chain-guard for it?
> Thanks,
> PeterView attachment 75371View attachment 75372View attachment 75373View attachment 75374View attachment 75375




52CW is the year, so 1952. Looks like your fork is bent. Otherwise nice find!


----------



## Wakie (Apr 8, 2013)

*Looking for the year of my Hawthorne*

Hello, 
I have posted this once before in the General Discussions, and it was answered as 'early 50's'. 
I don't want to give up that easily -- I'd really like to know the year of my bike, if possible. Was much easier to find on my Western Flyer! 
I have attached a photo of the serial numbers and a side profile of the bike and a blurry badge. 

Serial number: A17286  and also a mark of AW, (w in a 'c' or a circle). 

I'm still waiting for the bike to arrive, so this is it for photos. 
Thanks for looking, and for any help


----------



## Boris (Apr 8, 2013)

*1939 CW Pacemaker*

Missing truss rods and wise lock. Incorrect wheels, headlight, crank, pedals, chainguard (Colson  shown), and seat. Fenders, frame, fork, and tank are correct The serial number on the BB is D88275. Phil has dated this to probably the first quarter of 1939


----------



## 1918 Ranger (Apr 8, 2013)

Very nice!!


1918 Ranger


----------



## DanWentworth (Jun 21, 2013)

*Can Anyone help me with this recent find? SN:J16987*

This Bike was rusting away in a basement in Lakewood Ohio.
The Cleveland Welding Company Tag as well as the different Chain\sprocket Assembly caught my interest.
It is in need of a seat and chain guard. 
I am curious as to why the downtube <?> welds appear to be of inferior quality, perhaps a conversion to a Girls bike?
I am interested in any information anyone can provide.
Dan


----------



## OldRider (Jun 21, 2013)

Not sure what happened to your bike but you appear to have a Murray chainring on it.





DanWentworth said:


> This Bike was rusting away in a basement in Lakewood Ohio.
> The Cleveland Welding Company Tag as well as the different Chain\sprocket Assembly caught my interest.
> It is in need of a seat and chain guard.
> I am curious as to why the downtube <?> welds appear to be of inferior quality, perhaps a conversion to a Girls bike?
> ...


----------



## Stinky_Sullivan (Jun 21, 2013)

DanWentworth said:


> perhaps a conversion to a Girls bike?





Wouldn't that be a funny twist. Kinda like converting a Mustang into a Pinto.


----------



## Elgin Baylor (Jun 23, 2013)

*Another CWC Roadmaster*










RMS37 said:


> Thanks, I'd be happy to take the project on. I'll try to put some things together to build a framework for the project and post here early next week. (I'll have to stop answering questions for a few days and focus!) If anyone else has thoughts please post so we can get a good start.
> 
> Phil




Hi Phil, I recently purchased this Roadmaster at Copake. I figure it's mid to late 40's. The serial number is: C57614A then C with a W inside. It's Black & white with red pin striping. The tires, seat and bars are not original. What do you think? Any info. would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.


----------



## ed1966ss (Jul 27, 2013)

*Another request for info*

I have this CWC Roadmaster that I’m looking to restore, but first I was hoping to find a little more info about it. It is a 26” bike with a skip tooth chain, serial number B00970 A0. I’ve read through this topic and I see some mention about different suffix, but I didn’t see anything specific about the A0 suffix(it looks like A0, but maybe the 0 is really the circled w).

The fenders, both front and rear have a hole at the top. I was guessing the front is for the light, but there is also a bracket on the headset, so if the light mounts on the headset bracket, why the fender hole? I have no idea what the hole on the top rear fender would be for. Thanks


----------



## TexasJeff2855 (Oct 6, 2013)

*Seiberling Cleveland Welding Frame?*

Badged Seiberling.  Photos tell the rest. Weird serial number/letter combination. I thought the letter was usually first?  Any thoughts? Phil?


----------



## RMS37 (Oct 6, 2013)

TexasJeff2855 said:


> Badged Seiberling.  Photos tell the rest. Weird serial number/letter combination. I thought the letter was usually first?  Any thoughts? Phil?
> View attachment 116830View attachment 116831View attachment 116832View attachment 116833View attachment 116834




This bike is a Colson rather than a CWC product. The serial number suggests it is from 1939


----------



## skinnywhiz (Nov 10, 2013)

*My CWC Roadmaster*




Here's my contribution. Can anyone tell me what year? Prewar? I got this one at a thrift store in Cleveland. Serial # reads E21768


----------



## Buster1 (Nov 10, 2013)

E is 1940 I believe.


----------



## Kreep (Feb 19, 2014)

I have had this Roadmaster for a while... Assuming its a 51' but I figured I would put it up here and find out because it seems a bit older...
Serial # J90192   then the normal C with the lil' "w" in it If any one can shed some  light on the year that would be great!




-Kreep-


----------



## bike (Feb 19, 2014)

*Phil*



RMS37 said:


> .... I would love to see a CWC serial number data base built. I have been working on one for myself for some time and plan to put it up on a CWC website I am working on.  I...
> Phil




how is this going? Not that my projects go any quicker!


----------



## pedal_junky (Feb 19, 2014)

*Wards Hawthorne*

CWC built in '38 (thanks Cabers) 



















Rear fender, wheel, fork and seat have been replaced.


----------



## Minnesota Mike (Feb 19, 2014)

*Roadmaster?*



Kreep said:


> I have had this Roadmaster for a while... Assuming its a 51' but I figured I would put it up here and find out because it seems a bit older...
> Serial # J90192   then the normal C with the lil' "w" in it If any one can shed some  light on the year that would be great!
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Wayne Adam (Feb 20, 2014)

*My Contribution to the CWC S/N project*

Here are my three current CWC bikes.

 The first one is a 1937 Badged as a Roadmaster, Ser. # C34333
The second is a 1939 Badged as a Fleet Wing, Ser. # H60729
The third is an NOS 1956 ladies Roadmaster, Ser. # D37227F
                                                                                              Wayne


----------



## MTGeorge (Feb 23, 2014)

*2 more*

Here are a couple more.   The blue one has had a bad repaint/touch-up at some point.  Not really sure what is original but it is badged Royal Master and claims to be from Arno's Bicycle Co in Babylon L.I.   Not sure what part of Cleveland that is?  Serial number is A08492 Cw














The red one is a little bit of an odd duck with its straight rear triangle and 2 speed.  It's serial number is B68905  53Cw.   The Hiawatha badge also has a serial number 45 WGB 24 1053 stamped into the bottom of it (I am unsure about the B it could be a 6 or an 8).   I always assumed it was from 1953.


----------



## jpromo (Feb 23, 2014)

Minnesota Mike said:


> I have what I believe to be a Roadmaster or a Hawthorne with serial no. J 58288 CW. It's my dad's I believe. It's similar to yours, with curved fender braces, same chain ring, except no springer front fork. The head badge is long gone, fenders are peaked. I remember seeing a torpedo light somewhere around the garage that went with this bike. I'm trying to ID mine, too, if anyone has ideas.
> 
> One interesting detail on mine is that the dropout adjustment bolts are slot heads not hex like most CWC bikes seem to have. Anyone know what this bike might be?
> 
> Thanks in advance!




I'd go with 1947, maybe into '48. The chain adjusters were replaced with standard hardware store bolts, not actual chain adjusters. It was likely badged Roadmaster or one of the other house badgings for CWC because of the chainring.


----------



## kenspaceliners (Feb 23, 2014)

My 1936 CWC Roadmaster


----------



## DanWentworth (Feb 25, 2014)

*Babylon L.I.*

In response to your question.
Babylon L.I is in New York, Long Island.
(I am a life long resident in Cleveland. I had to know.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_(village),_New_York


----------



## CWCMAN (Mar 2, 2014)

Hey there,
  I just joined this site, so I'm late to the party but I have an early 36-37 CWC hang tank bicycle which I believe to be very rare in that I have only seen three others in my over 30 years of collecting. The serial# on my bicycle is D20005. I would love to see other collectors with this same style bicycle. My bicycle is badged "ELITE" and I have owned it for close to 30 years.


----------



## scrubbinrims (Mar 2, 2014)

CWCMAN said:


> View attachment 140516Hey there,
> I just joined this site, so I'm late to the party but I have an early 36-37 CWC hang tank bicycle which I believe to be very rare in that I have only seen three others in my over 30 years of collecting. The serial# on my bicycle is D20005. I would love to see other collectors with this same style bicycle. My bicycle is badged "ELITE" and I have owned it for close to 30 years.
> 
> View attachment 140514




Killer bike and it is rare, but the earliest double bar roadsters were tankless (and had more narrowly spaced top tubes) and your serial number corresponds with 38-39.
Chris


----------



## CWCMAN (Mar 2, 2014)

Thanks for the reply scrubbinrims,
  I dig this bicycle, that's why I hung onto it so long. I would love to see others post pictures of this same style bicycle as well. Not sure how many are out there but I'm guessing few and far between.

I Just sourced the correct truss rods that will be going on it soon. I would like to find the tear drop or paisley style chain guard as well.


----------



## jpromo (Mar 2, 2014)

CWCMAN said:


> View attachment 140520Thanks for the reply scrubbinrims,
> I dig this bicycle, that's why I hung onto it so long. I would love to see others post pictures of this same style bicycle as well. Not sure how many are out there but I'm guessing few and far between.
> 
> I Just sourced the correct truss rods that will be going on it soon. I would like to find the tear drop or paisley style chain guard as well.View attachment 140519




Yes, yes. Rare indeed and in beautiful condition. I'd agree that the serial leans on 1938 as well.


----------



## rustjunkie (Mar 6, 2014)

Cleveland Welding hulk just in. Original color was grey with maroon head.
Serial # K64682
Any clue as to the year?


----------



## pedal_junky (Apr 4, 2014)

*Roadmaster*

Acquired this frame from Wheeled Relics. (Dave, I got the stem out!)
 It is a '37 Roadmaster badged Cleveland Welding bike serial #C05914

. Just recently got it together and it rides great. Chainguard came with the frame, maybe for 24" bike?


----------



## pedal_junky (Apr 13, 2014)

*Bonus numbers.*



pedal_junky said:


> CWC built in '38 (thanks Cabers)
> View attachment 138292
> 
> View attachment 138294
> ...




Cleaned the hangar up a bit more to reveal what looks to be a number 12 off to the side of the original numbers.  Any ideas @jpromo @rms37


----------



## DJ Bill (Apr 13, 2014)

I figured I better get my CWC here in the thread before I forget to...G56886

Serial number:






Bike as purchased minus triple step rear wheel:

New Departure hub that was on it: you can see the triple step rim:




Bent fork that was with it:






Currently in process of restoration, it can all be seen in my linked thread in my signature.

Unsure about whether it would have had curved fender braces or not, I prefer the straight ones but so far have not found a rear fender to fit the bike. Would it have used round profile or gothic fenders?
Also interested if that style fork would have been installed from the factory on this bike....I replaced it with another one like it. I have found most of the parts to return it to an appropriate period condition but maybe not entirely all CWC parts....Just have to find time to finish the paintwork and assemble it now.  Originally I had found some rims of a 50's CWC to put on it and even had them blasted and  I laced them up with stainless but that single triple step kept calling out for a twin, so now I have a pair of them at the blasters. I probably will not use a tank on this bike, there don't seem to be any signs of it ever having one although I would think a 3 gill tank would be right?  I have a Roadmaster badge that lines up with the holes but it is a bit newer looking...

As it sits right now:



Any info appreciated..Thanks!


----------



## tjkajecj (Apr 18, 2014)

*My 1936 Ben Hur Badged CWC*

One of this summers projects.


----------



## Moisstink (Apr 26, 2014)

*still looking for a year or model.*

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks


----------



## jpromo (Apr 26, 2014)

Moisstink said:


> Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks




Large downtube curve, B serial; looks like 1947.


----------



## joseywales (May 3, 2014)

*CWC  built Hiawatha*

Here is my CWC built Hiawatha, bars seat  pedals and head light are not original to bike. What year was this made?


]


----------



## rollfaster (May 7, 2014)

*46-48 roadmaster*

just thought id add it to the thread. serial number G56673. probably somewhere in the middle.


----------



## Mike53946 (Jun 23, 2014)

*CWC--Roadmaster*

SN G26694 (think it is a 1946?)


----------



## Biss-Ness (Jun 23, 2014)

*Not sure of the year?*


----------



## eyolf (Aug 5, 2014)

3 pics: I believe the frame dates from just after, or perhaps just before WWII.

Shallow bend, "F" s/n.

Other details: solid seat mast with a bushing forced into the seat tube, and clamp arc welded at top to secure the assembly.

No fender mounting slots in dropouts, adjusters are square head style.

Chainstay brace (poorly) arc welded in place, seatstay very nice weld.

No headbadge, extremely small rivet holes likely drill studs, rather than screws.

found as bare frame with dogleg crank and Hawthorne-style skiptooth: came from a farm junkpile near a small town that had never had a bike shop...but did have a thriving M. Ward catalog "outlet"

If any knowldegable folks have a better date, I'm open. 

The bike was too far gone to do anything but create a franken-custom rider

So I did.




And I ride it


----------



## jd56 (Aug 6, 2014)

Trying to pin down the year on a Roadmaster Luxury Liner. 
Serial number is
D35448  A CW





This one is a bit rough around the edges but here is the bike. Has riveted headbadge, standard spoked rims ( Not heavyduty)...incorrect chainguard and grips.











It's all about the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?


----------



## jd56 (Aug 6, 2014)

jd56 said:


> Trying to pin down the year on a Roadmaster Luxury Liner.
> Serial number is
> D35448  A CW
> 
> ...



jpromo said it looks to be a 1950..Thx jp.

It's all about the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?


----------



## jd56 (Aug 6, 2014)

Was told it is a 1950. 

It's all about the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?


----------



## jco69 (Aug 15, 2014)

*just picked this up, any ID help would be appreciated*

20" looks to be all original, seat is a "Paul Haber" no headbadge and it has "jet fire" on the chain guard.


----------



## Adamtinkerer (Aug 16, 2014)

jco69 said:


> 20" looks to be all original, seat is a "Paul Haber" no headbadge and it has "jet fire" on the chain guard.
> 
> It's a 1954, the chain guard and rear rack are from a 60s Murray, probably a 24" bike.


----------



## BLWNMNY (Sep 11, 2014)

My serial no. is: A07078   can anybody tell me what year this is?  Chris


----------



## ratina (Sep 11, 2014)

BLWNMNY said:


> My serial no. is: A07078   can anybody tell me what year this is?  Chris




You'll have to post pics, the serial numbers repeated.


----------



## TexasJeff2855 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Roadmaster*

Before and after pics of a Roadmaster that I estimate to be 1949-1951.  It has the CW but  no number in front of it.  







Any input is greatly appreciated!


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## joel.romeo.79 (Sep 13, 2014)

My head just exploded. I have a handful of Cleveland frames. I will sort them out and get them in here. 








This one ran off last weekend to live with a new owner. It wasn't a complete bike and these are the only pics I had of it. 


It wasn't me I swear.


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## joel.romeo.79 (Sep 13, 2014)

No idea the year it's double posted somewhere else. I found it with Davis tires on it. 


It wasn't me I swear.


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## joel.romeo.79 (Sep 13, 2014)

You're welcome to drop by and smack me in the back of the head for this one but peeling cracked paint with a red white and blue color scheme under it peeking out =batpoop crazy. Correct me if this is not Cleveland weld but I was sure it was


It wasn't me I swear.


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## joel.romeo.79 (Sep 13, 2014)

This one actually escaped from a long captivity in my barn. It was probably my first balloon tire bike 26 years ago I got it for my mom at a garage sale


It wasn't me I swear.


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## jd56 (Sep 15, 2014)

This is a dual springer (not installed yet) Roadmaster.
From what I have read here, this "J" prefix places this on in 1951
But, the owner wants to be sure. I don't own this one but, would like to confirm the year.
Serial is J29615 ACw.










Was originally black and the son of the original owner decided these colors were cool. Nicely redone seat from the early 70s. Below is a file picture of the son with the bike in 1968.









Thx....JD


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## Jeff54 (Oct 4, 2014)

*1945-6 Western flyer CWC built Lady's*

Need main basic date of serial number 'best guessed'  and replied with some quotes so peps can see answer later please, Thanks 

Here's another of the fabled C letter Post or during (?) war. Original color appears to be (under all the top paints), a maroon-red, and white boarded with green striping.  The maroon-red appears wherever the white has been washed off, a little on fenders and inside the chain guard where white is rubbed off a larger area showing it. It's a good strong maroon-red that's in no way comparable to the colors painted over original. Whoever painted this, 2 different times in the past, spared the main areas of white which is currently original, boarded by green striping. . 

 Serial # C20452  A Cw ....   (has anybody figured out the date for a C letter yet?) Note: photo of serial number bottom original color is white.. that's different because, there's nothing out there in pictures illustrating a pattern with white on lower portion of frame.  And the pattern on the head post and bars is typical, all red with white on head post/bars. 

This little girl will be going to the parts market soon. 

I have not found maker of rims, containing Benix 70, Made in USA hub and brake arm. 26 x 2.15, current tire Otasco Flying O, maybe orig. tires I don't know cept they have triangles on tread that seem period.   

Fork is just like Schwinn's, fender screw  hole in center like Schwinn and even the white dart on it looks like them too. (not exactly white dart of Schwinn but very close. Close enough to confuse.)  It had a rear carrier but all that's left is a piece of  mount bracket on seat post clamp.  has a center ribbed seat post bracket. If there wasn't so much over paint on this, could say if or not horn  tanked. Yet, with other specials like, curved fender brackets and flat area for light, best handle grips and rear carrier, odds are very high it had a tank.   

The truss rods and fork clip/holder are the same as pre-war. The fender's are where the maroon/red is uncovered, and have cool curved fender brackets as seen on many other different CWC made bikes.  They'll likely get a sex change in part out,, it's a shame girls ain't' around to protect this market. However it's why I'm listing it inside the serial number thread. At least, if the day ever comes, and girls get put back together again, there's a record of the rarer earlier "C" letter? post war. numbered, types. Which is also why I'm trying to document/detailed description. 

The front fender has a diamond flat area for mounting light or? They are Peaked fenders. White diamond with green pin-stripe around them, One on very  front and one on  tip in rear. 

Chain guard is a cool art deco, 4 rib, with white on one rib that's boarded with a green striping/piping that's deep in the channel separating the ribs, also seen pre-war without the white stripe 


Rear drop outs are as mentioned in this thread previously: invisible spot welds and the end of the frame tubes have a clean end showing no weld bead."

. There is a hole for chain guard but not fenders and of course, no ears at bottom of drop-outs. 

Post war- Western Flyer modernized Head badge.

And, I have to say, when it comes to big fat, hefty and cool designs in handle grips,, Western Flyer, gets an award. (I even recall them as a kid in 60's when building stingrays from scrap, they were 1st choice but, not used only cause they weren't Schwinn. And by the 60's western flyer's made by Murray or Huffy were crap, so,, not a good idea then too. .) 

The Chain-ring/ drive sprocket appears to be lady's only. I've searched tons of photos but none on boy/men's bikes.. for lack of a name i'm going with: Skip tooth  'turbo or cyclone  hearts' Chainring. 

Typical Troxel  lady's seat, appear both pre and post war. And the goose neck, I don't know who made it but looks like an 1940's  Schwinn, go figure? 

. 















Bendix 70, made in USA hub, unknown rims, Otasco Flying O 26 x 2.125 tires 









This is a stamped embossed  letter badge, they seem to appear post war, whereas western flyer's later badge looks very similar in design , ca. 1954 but, is flat screen printed . 





Who wouldn't love these grips?


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## ratina (Oct 5, 2014)

ACw was only used 50-51. Your Serial # C20452 A Cw dates to 1950.


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## Jeff54 (Oct 5, 2014)

ratina said:


> ACw was only used 50-51. Your Serial # C20452 A Cw dates to 1950.




That's very odd, as, before reviewing this thread, 3 or more times. 1 there's other with similar date codes but with later letters D,F,G etc. that are being dated before 1950.. the single thing that is consistent with 1950 and later is when letter followed with 5 diget has date 51-56 followed by Cw. inside this thread. I did not notice any post with  the '50Cw', which would represent 1950. however there's 51-56 noted. 



But most importantly also before, I dug through 100's and 100's of the different types of photographs CWC bikes they'd made, and could not find a single one with the same features this girls bike has beyond 1949. 

Skip tooth seems to have becoming phased out by 1950, and this frame has the "transitional" spot welded and brass rounded joints. Noted earlier as an indicator of 2nd generation of post war beginning about 1944-49. I did not remark because it's obvious in the photograph. top bar spot wield cross  bar brazed. 

I might of considered this frame to be a left over, but, really not likely as it's indicating all of the bonus points of being girls 2nd too the top of the line, which would be having  a springer the  top of the line. . . Curved Fender braces, special feature flat fender mount spot for light, rear carrier rack, truss rods and grips. which means also most likely to have had a tank. Those features put it 2nd top of the line types sold, and it's very unlikely top of line would be made with out-dated frame/parts. (turbo heart skip-tooth, combo brazed-spot wielding, and pre-war chain guard.)

Also of note, is the transition from Morrow and new departure to a bendix, and back too new departure again. 

Have you taken the position that the 'A Cw' is not made prior too 1950? Presuming that A indicates 1950, hence 1951 '51 Cw' is when year dating was stamped in? 

If so then, a bunch of prior date estimating in this thread is all out of wack.


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## jpromo (Oct 5, 2014)

It is indeed a 1950 frame. The particular dropouts on your frame didn't start until 1950. CWC used skiptooth drivetrains as late as 1956, with only the top deluxe bikes switching over to 1/2" around 1948. This bike has been assembled from several other bikes, which is why you haven't seen one exactly like it. The fenders are from an earlier CWC bike, due to the curved braces. There's one straight brace probably because the curved one would not fit correctly on the frame it wasn't designed for.


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## Jeff54 (Oct 7, 2014)

jpromo said:


> It is indeed a 1950 frame. The particular dropouts on your frame didn't start until 1950. CWC used skiptooth drivetrains as late as 1956, with only the top deluxe bikes switching over to 1/2" around 1948. This bike has been assembled from several other bikes, which is why you haven't seen one exactly like it. The fenders are from an earlier CWC bike, due to the curved braces. There's one straight brace probably because the curved one would not fit correctly on the frame it wasn't designed for.



 OK so help me get this straight.

 This thread is very confusing, plenty data, and for whatever reasons, primaries didn't finish,, or? but many did not put all the asked for photographs, plus several replies when answered did not quote for reference which bike they're talking about. would be very helpful if somebody created a new thread, that put all the jumbled up pieces of this pie in order. 

Regardless Is this the known 1950 drop out You're referring too? , dated 1953 in this thread,  with U shaped cut out and oval hole for rack and guard? 





BTW, I did not say I could not find the same bike when searching photographs , I did, but didn't save the 100's of photographs I'd seen. But,, in those searches I managed to estimate pre-1950. and it was the single straight fender bracket which helped me find it. Unfortunately it's out there in cyber space cause I didn't save photos I'd hunted through. Clever me, I were thunking that once I had the bike in my possession all me had to do was track serial number and wa-la, no need for other photos, .. 

Or is that one above 1951-6 ,, and which time frame was this, obviously before the U shaped cut out for rack. I was under the impression this was 46-49 no? ( my bad, I'd said it only had 1 hole, in prior message, the fender bracket was covering the rack hole,,) So, it's 1 round for rack and 1 oval for chain guard, which was only made in 1950? or 46-49?  ( The Pacman drop-out [grin]),


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## jd56 (Oct 7, 2014)

One more roadmaster serial decipher.
Not sure what year "H" is or could be. Guessing late 40s or early 50s.
It's a 3 gill. 




It's all about the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?


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## mikedill (Oct 17, 2014)

Not 100% on date on this western flyer, late 40s, is what I'm going with at this point, serial # J93084 Cw


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## mikedill (Oct 17, 2014)

Damn Tapatalk.


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## jd56 (Oct 30, 2014)

*Pinched Crown Fork?*

Again another CWC serial number decipher that I'm guessing at.
Owner said this was a 1936. 

Serial is *J95284* ...no suffix stamping.

There are two additional separate stamped number (I haven't seen the stamped numbers yet), that are stamped sideways with the "5" above the serial and an "8" below the serial. Not clear if these separate numbers are of the same font as the serial. 
I'll assume these are an owner registration number(s) such as the local police dept would do or maybe the factory assembler stamping from CW. 

Has rear dropstand ears with no welding attachment process. 
Earlier chainring.
Not sure about the rear rack, would this be a prewar rack?
Has teardrop pedals and possibly a "Jiffy" stand in lieu of the missing dropstand. 
Screwed Roadmaster headbadge

Also has what I'm guessing is termed "*Pinched Crown*" front fork?

When were these "pinched crown forks produced and is it a clear prewar era identifier?

The attached picture isn't the best quality but it is all I have at this point.













Any help on deciphering the year is appreciated.


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## Jeff54 (Oct 30, 2014)

jd56 said:


> Again another CWC serial number decipher that I'm guessing at.
> Owner said this was a 1936.
> 
> Serial is *J95284* ...no suffix stamping.




I've got the same exact bike/frame in a western flyer, cept my serial numbers don't even make sense. Regardless, it's based on a frame modification in 1938 and accordingly, the girls twisted heart  chain ring appearing in 1940.

So, in all likelihood ya got a 1940/41. Plus I read that the 'chevron' rack is prewar. 

Hippy 'flower power'  stickers; circa late 1960's. Looks like your handlebar and gooseneck are 60's too. 

Pinched, shoulder pads, whatever, it's a rare fork.


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## jd56 (Oct 30, 2014)

Thanks for your thoughts Jeff.
Spoke to the owner again and he said the original owner bought the bike new in 1936. Said he wanted a step through girls frame for his easy dismount while doing his paper route. 

Not sure what 1938 modification you're speaking of. And is the chainring posted on both bikes called a "twisted heart" chainring?  Figured it would have a different name as ai don't see where the heart shape is. But what do I know.  That's why I'm here!!





It's all about the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Oct 30, 2014)

Look closely


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## jd56 (Oct 30, 2014)

Ahhhh.... I see said the blind man!
Didn't see it before. And I thought I was looking closely.

It's all about the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Oct 30, 2014)

jd56 said:


> Ahhhh.... I see said the blind man!
> Didn't see it before. And I thought I was looking closely.
> 
> It's all about the Tanklights!!
> ...



Yeah... I wasn't sure which ring you were looking at... so I deleted and went back through thread. ..but yeah you see it now...


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## Jeff54 (Oct 30, 2014)

jd56 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts Jeff.
> Spoke to the owner again and he said the original owner bought the bike new in 1936. Said he wanted a step through girls frame for his easy dismount while doing his paper route.
> 
> Not sure what 1938 modification you're speaking of. And is the chainring posted on both bikes called a "twisted heart" chainring?  Figured it would have a different name as ai don't see where the heart shape is. But what do I know.  That's why I'm here.




Yeah well you're lucky it's actually an old bike, I can't begin to tell all the stories of people who'll swear on their family bible that are selling their grand-father's/grand-mother's, great, great, great pops n mom's junk that aint old. In most cases, grand somwbody died, but bought something at flea market or yard sale, and told grandma or grandpa, it's the same one they had as kid. But I tell ya 1; WW II famous person/book known by practically all. Anne Frank (1929-1945), museum recently had a show which ran all across America that included toy marbles she'd played with just before going into hiding. 80% of the marbles shown were made in the 1960's. The rest were clay and could have been made by the dam Flintstone's TV show or the real Flintstone's family. Go figure? 

the hearts is right in front you nose. 

As for the frame changes, page 3 or 4 makes the notes, but you'll have to decipher what the hell it means, lol.


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## jpromo (Oct 30, 2014)

jd56 said:


> Again another CWC serial number decipher that I'm guessing at.
> Owner said this was a 1936.
> 
> Serial is *J95284* ...no suffix stamping.
> ...




This particular fork was used very briefly right before the war, and very briefly after the war. The bike is definitely prewar but is a few years later than 1936. It was a long time ago and if somebody can remember something within 5 years, that's pretty good! The serial and the details lead me to guess it was likely a Christmas 1941 bicycle. Somewhere late '41 to early '42.


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## jpromo (Oct 30, 2014)

mikedill said:


> Not 100% on date on this western flyer, late 40s, is what I'm going with at this point, serial # J93084 Cw




Hey Mike, I've got your serial falling at the end of 1949 and the rest of the bike agrees with that.


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## jd56 (Oct 31, 2014)

I agree.  Memory can be a bit hazy for those from before the war. Hell my memory is hazy and I'm from the 50s...lol

Thanks OBI, Jeff and JP for the replies.

I will say that I thought I read all the pages of deciphered information and must admit I got somewhat confused.

It would be nice to see a prewar and postwar list of serial numbers / pictures of the CWC serial number chart.
Seems like some of you may have a list. ..or at least a good memory....lol

Again thanks and I'll pass the info onto the owner of this 40-42 girls Roadmaster. 
Honestly, if I could get the bike it would be for the few accessories. ...rear rack, pedals, seat, kickstand.
I have no desire for the "Laugh In", "Love Power" flowers.  Stripping another house painted bike is not one I have time for. 

I am curious as to the design concept of the "pinched" crown or shoulders of the front fork. 
Jason mentioned it was a short production run of these forks. Do you think it was just a different look for the bike or it actually had a purpose for these knuckles or humps? Strength in design possibly?

It's all about the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?


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## mikedill (Oct 31, 2014)

jpromo said:


> Hey Mike, I've got your serial falling at the end of 1949 and the rest of the bike agrees with that.



Awesome! Thanks!


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## Jeff54 (Oct 31, 2014)

jd56 said:


> I agree.  Memory can be a bit hazy for those from before the war. Hell my memory is hazy and I'm from the 50s...lol
> 
> Thanks OBI, Jeff and JP for the replies.
> 
> ...




Yeah, this topic got off to a good start and then bailed. Transferred with or without the data base being built?? it appears that way, . Followed with people who were not including enough photographs. and made worse when replies are made without quoting the poster's query. Then too many who just jump in without taking the time to get through the 6 pages. 

I've spent numerous hour attempting to decipher the dope that's here, it's not only too long, for the multiple posts that don't fit  it's twisted too. 

The topic would be better served if the corresponding photos about frames and serial numbers were matched with the serial letter/number base on its 1st page.  Which would cut down the amount of people asking questions that are only randomly answered. 

That fork, I've searched 100's and 100's of bikes hunting for it. there are quite a few similar, notably one called pinched and it's not yours. The 'shoulders' in the 'pinched' style varies.  Heck, Schwinn proved what a kick buck fork it is invariably illustrating that extra shoulder support wasn't needed. So, yes, while they're made in varying styles, I'm confident it's meant for greater durability. Especially a ton better than hollow double or triple crown forks. Me tinks Schwinn illustrated that beautifully for a good 40-50 year. Perhaps they secured everybody's patents too. 



Interestingly, after a massive hunt, this was the only one I could find:






a 41 "restored"  western flyer

http://cyclesensei.blogspot.com/2012_12_01_archive.html





Moreover, with the brazed and smoothed  joints, pinched forks, There's a definite appearance that Schwinn's future, was a knock off of pre-war CWC's bikes? Or was it visa versa?  Go figure?


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## randallace (Dec 26, 2014)

Picked up what I think. Is a 1940 CWC roadmaster - help on date? Am I right ?


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## 2speedster (Dec 27, 2014)

Hey guys! New member but not new to the vintage bike scene...I have 2 CWC frames I would like to identify. 
One is A69466
And the other is G08748. Any help would be appreciated!
Also, Jeff54, I'm also in Ft. Myers! Would like to meet up and ride! Always looking for new bike friends.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 28, 2014)

2speedster said:


> Hey guys! New member but not new to the vintage bike scene...I have 2 CWC frames I would like to identify.
> One is A69466
> And the other is G08748. Any help would be appreciated!
> Also, Jeff54, I'm also in Ft. Myers! Would like to meet up and ride! Always looking for new bike friends. ��




waz-sup homie? PM sent..

You know the drill?? photos!, frame, and a few different angles of some of the joints to see which is fillet brazed and or electro welded, and when ID-ing the serial numbers ya got go across right and left to know for sure whether there's a C with small w inside o it. Post war: .  Cw, A Cw, 51 Cw, etc. normally found spaced on right after the first set of numbers near edge of crank case. . 

also photo of drop out exposing all holes and welded joints.


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## 2speedster (Dec 30, 2014)

Werd. I'll post pics as soon as I can! There is the W inside the C on both frames without any prefix letter. I believe one to be a 47 and the other I have narrowed down to what I think is a 48 or 49.


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## 2speedster (Dec 30, 2014)

Also, I never received your PM. My email is Dualcarbron@gmail.com


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## pedal_junky (Dec 30, 2014)

2speedster said:


> Werd. I'll post pics as soon as I can! There is the W inside the C on both frames without any prefix letter. I believe one to be a 47 and the other I have narrowed down to what I think is a 48 or 49.




To quote jpromo;

"CW pops up in three different fashions for three different periods of bikes. 47-49 looked something like this A69466 Cw.  50-51 were the years of like A69466 ACw. Then 52-56 are where the uncertainties end because the serials told the year point blank---like: A69466 52Cw with the year being 1952."

  I used your serial number as the example. The small w will be located inside the C. Get some pics up, have fun.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 30, 2014)

pedal_junky said:


> To quote jpromo;
> 
> "CW pops up in three different fashions for three different periods of bikes. 47-49 looked something like this A69466 Cw.  50-51 were the years of like A69466 ACw. Then 52-56 are where the uncertainties end because the serials told the year point blank---like: A69466 52Cw with the year being 1952."
> 
> I used your serial number as the example. The small w will be located inside the C. Get some pics up, have fun.




51Cw exists and photographed within this topic Frank.  So, ACw is presumed to be 50, unless or until it comes along. 

some of the serials with just Cw have indicated a little bit of order, when what type of drop out is identified and the joints welded.  so, some of the first letter in serial numbers can be sorted within a 2-4 year margin. 

however as I said earlier and others,, it would be helpful if those who originated this, got e-mails and photos would have passed the gathered info and posted the refined order, since the first attempts years ago. .

I've attempted to discover some sense of order of this whole topic but there's to much posted without reference. A lot of incomplete information.


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## pedal_junky (Dec 30, 2014)

Okay, I've attempted to document each frame along with the serial stamp together in a photo colage for my own records. I'll dig back through my stuff and find that. Thanks, and totally agree on a more refined thread on CWC topic.


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## jpromo (Dec 30, 2014)

Jeff54 said:


> 51Cw exists and photographed within this topic Frank.  So, ACw is presumed to be 50, unless or until it comes along.




I have never seen a 51Cw; I'll have to dig through this thread and find that sometime. It's very possible they began that numbering method towards the end of '51. The number of ACw stamps compared to the pictured examples, numbering one, for 51Cw would not make sense with production numbers to consider that was used the entire year. I've got ACw stamps A-J, so the assumed cutoff between 1950 and 1951 likely in the E-F range.


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## Jeff54 (Dec 31, 2014)

jpromo said:


> I have never seen a 51Cw; I'll have to dig through this thread and find that sometime. It's very possible they began that numbering method towards the end of '51. The number of ACw stamps compared to the pictured examples, numbering one, for 51Cw would not make sense with production numbers to consider that was used the entire year. I've got ACw stamps A-J, so the assumed cutoff between 1950 and 1951 likely in the E-F range.




Yeah no worries, I just browsed through this topic again and it's not here, but I seen em, so, the 51Cw set must be somewhere I'd hunted inside of ratrods. don ask's me where at radrods, but I'd guess inside of a topic, I can't find currently, where a bunch of cranks cases are photographed.  ..


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## truknamedsue (Jan 2, 2015)

did cleveland welding make the ben hur?


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## truknamedsue (Jan 2, 2015)

or the peerless that i parted out for the ben hur?


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## gameparts (Jan 27, 2015)

Jpromo kindly ID'd my new vintage bike, Serial Number J00179.  Just thought I'd add it to the CWC database.   He said it is a : "1941 CWC-built bike. Carrier suggests it was originally badged Hawthorne. Only original parts look to be the frame/carrier. Fork may or may not be original. Fenders look to be universal replacements"  Thanks Jpromo!


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## 47jchiggins (Aug 23, 2015)

I have this Roadmaster Whizzer, SN: B69385  , 1947? I would really like to know as well as what looks original to the year of the bike.

Thanks,

Todd


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## jd56 (Aug 23, 2015)

Do you ever buy or pick up anything that needs detailing...that is one badass looking Whizzer.  I can check my notes on the CWC serial number in a bit. Curved fender braces puts it in the 40s I'm sure.
But there are more qualified than I to pinpoint the year as the serials for CWC were reused just about every decade as I recall.

It's all about the Rescue / Revival and of course the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?

my FB page
https://m.facebook.com/antiquebikerescue


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## jd56 (Aug 30, 2015)

Todd, my notes show the "B" prefix could be 1943 or 47. Believe the latter would have the "CW" suffix stamping.
However, I have been so wrong on the Roadmaster serial number deciphering in the past...someone more qualified needs to pipe in.
Still a real beauty regardless what year it is.

It's all about the Rescue / Revival and of course the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?

my FB page
https://m.facebook.com/antiquebikerescue


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## ratina (Aug 30, 2015)

truknamedsue said:


> did cleveland welding make the ben hur?




Both of your bikes are Snyder built. Usually badged Rollfast


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## wrongway (Nov 4, 2015)

Here is my Cleveland Welding Roadmaster that I just bought from a friend. He figures it's a 1947. I really like the headbadge and those curved fender braces! I should have taken better pictures than these. The serial number is: 'H22491' with 'A CW' behind that.


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## tripple3 (Nov 4, 2015)

I have a 1940 Western Flyer with G5....Serial number on the bottom bracket. 







That is the pic my friend sent me from the swap meet where he found it asking if I wanted it?.... quickly replied yes
Thread on this bike is Prewar Western Flyer


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## wrongway (Nov 4, 2015)

Is this to say that mine might be pre-war, too?


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## Jeff54 (Nov 4, 2015)

wrongway said:


> Is this to say that mine might be pre-war, too?




Naw, Your's has the Cw stamp, preceded with an A. That Cw stamp appeared post war and the A series puts it in the 47-8ish, 49- to 50's range. However, you may have early fenders and chain guard.


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## tripple3 (Nov 4, 2015)

*Frame design & Bottom bracket Stamps....*



wrongway said:


> Is this to say that mine might be pre-war, too?




No. 
Frame design and CW on BB says postwar... but I am generally confused by Down tubes and Stays that are straight then curved... then straight 
Maybe last years Road Master is this years Western Flyer????


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## wrongway (Nov 4, 2015)

I think the chain guard is an after-market accessory. I would be interested in locating a stock one. My truss rods seem different than many I've seen.


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## Oldude13 (Nov 19, 2015)

*My bike*

Can you help figure out the date of this one 
Thanks


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## Jeff54 (Nov 20, 2015)

Oldude13 said:


> Can you help figure out the date of this one
> Thanks




The H letter is thought to be in the 46-7 range.


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## Jeff54 (Nov 20, 2015)

Oldude13 said:


> Can you help figure out the date of this one
> Thanks




The H letter is thought to be in the 46-7 range.


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## Oldude13 (Nov 20, 2015)

Many thanks Jeff 54


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## rustjunkie (Dec 21, 2015)

Can someone please make a chart or send me the info so I can make one for the CWC serial #'s?
I know it wouldn't be 100% but it would be a good start.
 If I've overlooked the info in this thread or somewhere else, please let me know where?
 thanks!
 Scott A.


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## rustjunkie (Dec 21, 2015)

Can someone please make a chart or send me the info so I can make one for the CWC serial #'s?
I know it wouldn't be 100% but it would be a good start.
 If I've overlooked the info in this thread or somewhere else, please let me know where?
 thanks!
 Scott A.


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## CWCMAN (Dec 21, 2015)

Scott, 
I believe Phil (RMS37) was working on this chart but he has been long gone from these threads.
 Not sure if someone else is/was working on one but I would love to see this info on a chart.


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## CWCMAN (Dec 21, 2015)

Scott, 
I believe Phil (RMS37) was working on this chart but he has been long gone from these threads.
 Not sure if someone else is/was working on one but I would love to see this info on a chart.


Double post must be a system glitch ?


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## fordmike65 (Dec 21, 2015)

Phil.........where are you????????????????


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## jlr551cfd (Dec 23, 2015)

Here's mine... 1945 I believe...










The frame, fork, fenders and stays, and wheel set are original... I believe the seat is as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Oldude13 (Dec 23, 2015)

Very nice !


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## mrg (Dec 23, 2015)

Just wondering if Phil checks in to see whats going on here (maybe as a visitor), has anyone heard from him, maybe on other sites?, I would like to call him but lost his # 3 or 4 phones ago, o well you had better study up Eddie so you can take his place as the "CWC MAN", JK but we sure miss that expertise.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 24, 2015)

Phil went dark on us. He was going to assist me with technical help in the restoration of my '40 Four Gill and then some things went down that upset him. I tried calling, emailing, PMing, carrier pigeon--all to no avail. We lost a valuable member and a wealth of knowledge when Phil checked out. Hopefully one day he will return. V/r Shawn


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## jd56 (Dec 24, 2015)

This has been said many times before and don't want to rant but, I know everyone has an opinion on and about the hobby but, when one has conflicts with a knowledgeable member that his only purpose was to educate, upsets many of us. 
Not sure what happened with Phil and I truly respected his opinion and help. I truly miss his input.
There are a few respected members,  men and women, that have been offended on these pages that have left.
Probably because someone questioned their opinions and eagerness to help educate us, that we have asked for help here.
It's what this site is for. Hopefully we can keep those that are in the know and are willing to still offer info regarding our requested help " what do I have?", stick around.

As for the list on CWC serial numbers...(just my opinion)...I see that all prefix lettering was duplicated about each decade with "Cw" and later "ACw" suffixes added from the 40s through the 50s.
So if no suffix, then the decades would be determined by the style of the frame and added ammendities. It truly can be confusing before the suffix stampings, fo me anyway.

Miss you Phil 

It's all about the Rescue / Revival and of course the Tanklights!!

How did I run out of room so fast?

my FB page
https://m.facebook.com/antiquebikerescue


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## syclesavage (Dec 24, 2015)

Here's mine C code C06336


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## RTR (Dec 24, 2015)

Here is mine #J15622


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## RTR (Dec 24, 2015)

Here is mine #J15622


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## RTR (Dec 24, 2015)




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## mrg (Dec 25, 2015)

Murry/Mercury chain guard.


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## RTR (Dec 25, 2015)

yep had it laying around put it on took it off already.


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## MnyBikes (Jan 14, 2016)

See the following post for some early AMF's.  A few questions too.

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...ase-post-yours/page7&highlight=roadmaster+jet


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## island schwinn (Jan 21, 2016)

too bad about all the info leaving.hope to see Phil back some day.
this is my offering for now.was told it's a 39 and judging by another in this thread,it seems right.it's all apart for cleaning right now,but here are a few shots of the frame and a couple componenets.


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## dogdart (Jan 22, 2016)

I have had dozens of Cleveland Welding bicycles,  and have studied Phil's posts extensively , and have some info / opinions to share .

Bicycle production started late in 1935 for the 1936 model year  . Starting with prefix "A"   Presumably with # 00001 .
Also there are 1936 models with  "X" and
  "Z " prefixes  , that Phil believed were mixed in  timeline wise . 
After A99999 , came B00001 presumably and so on through the alphabet  , skipping the letter "I" till K99999 . 1,000,000 serial numbered units  and returning to  "A"  late in
1941 through the stoppage of bicycle production in February of 1942

It appears that the prefixes  may have been sequenced each year through the war for in house use , and when production resumed in 1946 the prefix was "E " and continued through the letters  as before ending  again  at K99999 . These post war bikes differ in construction from the pre war ones , and the easiest identifier are the dropstand
 tabs .
The third time through the alphabet the factory added a suffix  

Understanding production totals , and assembly practices , can give you an idea of year by prefix . 1936 probably saw around 100,000 units with  a steady increase  year by year till before  the  war they were producing over 250, 000 a year .

Also  of note is Phil had theorized that  hangers were probably pre stamped and likely left out of order  . My observations tend to support this  as I have a 1940 model with a "D" and there have been  " E"'s id'd as 1939 , and have observed "F"s that are 1940 models . part of this i theorize  , is that perhaps the factory  produced models  for contract to auto parts  stores and hardwares earlier the previous model year. 
I  have seen  some 1940 Western Flyer badged bikes with additional stamping 
"WE-04" Presumably to indicate the following years upgrades.  
also , my 1940 supreme model with "D" prefixe is Ridewell badged , and came equipped with a I -4 Morrow hub , possibly being assembled late in '39 

While  Phil is missed by us all , thankfully he left a lot of information behind if you take the time to do your research


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## BASHER76 (Jan 22, 2016)

This is my 1935 Wards Hawthorne. serial # is "D935 33". It is all original except for the fender, grips, and the tires. It had triple step Lobdell straight side rims on it with the New Departure hubs laced to them. I do know that that is the original badge and that is a 1935 Badge if I am correct.


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## BASHER76 (Jan 31, 2016)

I just picked up this Wards Hawthorne, I don't know the year but it is all original. The serial number is K93452 with no CW at the end. Without the CW at the end am I right saying that it is a prewar? It has a drop stand, axle adjuster bolts, it is a skiptooth..  Any help would be great to figure out what year it is.


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## mrg (Jan 31, 2016)

Differently pre war, looks CWC but Snyder built versions used that fork more, is the upper rear fender mount strait or curved, that will tell for sure but its looks CWC, I dont know serial # but probably 39-41, nice pick up!


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## BASHER76 (Feb 2, 2016)

mrg said:


> Differently pre war, looks CWC but Snyder built versions used that fork more, is the upper rear fender mount strait or curved, that will tell for sure but its looks CWC, I dont know serial # but probably 39-41, nice pick up!




The rear upper fender strut is straight.


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## mrg (Feb 4, 2016)

CWC for sure!


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## American Vintage Bicycle Supply (Feb 5, 2016)

Year?


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## pedal_junky (Feb 5, 2016)

American Vintage Bicycle Supply said:


> Year?
> 
> View attachment 282910 View attachment 282911




ACW suffix 50-51. Going with '50 with that serial.


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## Doc Rath (Mar 13, 2016)

Hi All,

   About 10yrs ago I worked at a bike shop in Toronto and got a bit of the collecting bug...after scooping up 10 or so bikes, when it came time to leave the city, the only one I wanted to hang onto was my RoadMaster.
I'll ask for a little help in dating it, please, as I'm a little confused with the "D" serial numbers. Mine also has a name of an individual stamped into the frame with the serial number and I'm wondering if this might have been done at the factory as a request, or afterwards.

Many thanks in advance,
Doc


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## jd56 (Mar 13, 2016)

Hey Doc, that stamping surely wasn't done at the factory. 
The sufffix "A Cw" was started in 1951 after AMF bought CWC. My guess is 1951.
The surefire CWC experts should chime in to confirm or prove me wrong, once again.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Doc Rath (Mar 13, 2016)

jd56 said:


> Hey Doc, that stamping surely wasn't done at the factory.
> The sufffix "A Cw" was started in 1951 after AMF bought CWC. My guess is 1951.
> The surefire CWC experts should chime in to confirm or prove me wrong, once again.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



Thanks jd56! I was told it was a "51 skip tooth" so you may indeed be bang on the money. I want to have it restored aswell, so, any guess what these things are worth? I see they can go fairly cheap on ebay so I'm just trying to weigh the costs. I can likely manage most of the mechanical stuff myself but I'll want to get the paint done right for sure.

Thanks,
Doc


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## jd56 (Mar 13, 2016)

Doc, these 3 gills are popular and there are quite a few out there in the hobby. Given how well these Roadmaster ride, it would make sense there are so many. 
I like em in the paint condition just like yours. WD4O and some 0000 steelwool rundown is best and perhaps some rubbing or polishing compound on the tough areas.
Value...they range from $200-400 depending on condition.
Repainted bikes loose value in my opinion.
Dust him off, clean him up and service the bearings. Then ride the wheels off of it. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Doc Rath (Mar 13, 2016)

jd56 said:


> Doc, these 3 gills are popular and there are quite a few out there in the hobby. Given how well these Roadmaster ride, it would make sense there are so many.
> I like em in the paint condition just like yours. WD4O and some 0000 steelwool rundown is best and perhaps some rubbing or polishing compound on the tough areas.
> Value...they range from $200-400 depending on condition.
> Repainted bikes loose value in my opinion.
> ...



I like your style jd56! No re-painting it is...just gotta get that front light I'm missing and get to the elbow grease ☺


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## Jeff54 (Mar 13, 2016)

Doc Rath said:


> I like your style jd56! No re-painting it is...just gotta get that front light I'm missing and get to the elbow grease ☺




White and pin striping has a tendency to be very dry and so, be very careful if you use steel wool on those  areas as they may rub right off before you know it. .

Where rust is in the white, carful application of light acids, like cheap toilet bowl cleaner can clean the white and eat the rust at the same time, Test it first. But don't get it on the pin stripes. . check other sections around these here parts for more cleaning, brightening and polishing  tips.


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## Squiggle Dog (Mar 16, 2016)

Here is my Hawthorne Comet. I was told it was a 1941 when I bought it off musclebike.com back in 1998 or so when I was about 13. But now I am guessing it's a 1946. Seat and handlebars are not original. I think everything else is. Serial number is F62569.


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## pedal_junky (Mar 16, 2016)

Squiggle Dog said:


> Here is my Hawthorne Comet. I was told it was a 1941 when I bought it off musclebike.com back in 1998 or so when I was about 13. But now I am guessing it's a 1946. Seat and handlebars are not original. I think everything else is. Serial number is F62569.



Super neat bike in great condition. 
CW suffix shows up on 47-49 bikes. With your serial, leaning towards '49.


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## jd56 (Mar 16, 2016)

Just can't remember....what year did the curved fender braces change to straight ones?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Squiggle Dog (Mar 16, 2016)

Thanks for the information. I owned a 1941 Hawthorne Comet before this one. It was an identical bike other than the noticeable but subtle prewar differences, like the straighter downtube on the frame, the horn button on the tank being on top and also housing the batteries for the lights, having the lighted floating rear carrier, the shockmaster forks from that era appeared to have sleeved spring holders, more shallow headlight, drop center rims, dropstand ears on frame, thicker seatpost clamp on frame, different paint scheme, shorter rear fender, only one curved fender brace, dogleg crank, different chainguard, etc.







After restoration by next owner:




Sadly, the Collectible Elgin, JC Higgins, Hawthorne bicycle book, as comprehensive as it is, doesn't show any deluxe Cleveland-Welding-Built Comet models. Just some Snyder-built ones. I'd love to see a postwar advertisement for the same model as in the post above. Although now my bike looks nearly identical (from a distance) to the prewar models shown in the book since I added a prewar carrier (to which I will transplant the curved legs from the original).


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## Tim73 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hey guys, new here. Just picked this up and was thinking after reading this entire thread maybe someone could give me a guess as to the year.


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## mrg (Apr 19, 2016)

48-9


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## Tim73 (Apr 19, 2016)

mrg said:


> 48-9



Thank you I appreciate the help.


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## Tim73 (Apr 19, 2016)

Oddly the bike has been painted with a brush but I see some overspray like from a can on a few spots. From what I can see where it's peeling the paint underneath is nearly exactly the same color. I want to try removing the paint on top to see what is underneath.


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## CrazyDave (Apr 29, 2016)

Heres one that does not follow the rules, a 40-ish roadmaster with a "R" serial!  Slick here has a nicer bike that looks identical to it, I wonder about it's serial... lets revitalize this thread?!


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## JAF/CO (Apr 29, 2016)

you need to clean the serial number real good and post a picture of it


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## CrazyDave (Apr 29, 2016)

JAF/CO said:


> you need to clean the serial number real good and post a picture of it



.


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## CrazyDave (Apr 29, 2016)

Im always the weird one....Im gonna put this here so I aint gotta find it again...RMS37 quote
The above opinion is based on my reading of all the data I have seen and recorded for Cleveland Welding Bicycles. Dating CWC bicycles will always be something of an art rather than a science without full factory documentation of their serial numbers. If you want to get a closer reading on the bike’s date, the NBHAA does have extensive CWC factory production record and may be able to pin the date down more closely than anyone else can. "


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## Nickyv06 (Apr 30, 2016)

I came across this thread when doing some general google searching to see if I could date my cwc. I only scanned through the posts briefly, but I think there was mention that serial numbers beginning with "C" are not that common. The s/n C02029 ACw. Someone painted it blue. It is a skip tooth with a lazy heart sprocket and new departure hub. Any info from the group would be appreciated. I am not at home so the pics below are best I can do for now. When it bought the bike it did not have the tank or headlight.


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## CrazyDave (Apr 30, 2016)

That "acw"  after the serial signifies it is post war from what I understand.  It is a mid-late 40's bike I assume.  Many others here know better than I though


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## pedal_junky (May 1, 2016)

Nickyv06 said:


> View attachment 311083 View attachment 311074 I came across this thread when doing some general google searching to see if I could date my cwc. I only scanned through the posts briefly, but I think there was mention that serial numbers beginning with "C" are not that common. The s/n C02029 ACw. Someone painted it blue. It is a skip tooth with a lazy heart sprocket and new departure hub. Any info from the group would be appreciated. I am not at home so the pics below are best I can do for now. When it bought the bike it did not have the tank or headlight.View attachment 311086
> 
> View attachment 311080



50-51 for ACW suffix. C and low serial should be the earlier.


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## Nickyv06 (May 1, 2016)

Thank you both!


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## CrazyDave (May 2, 2016)

Well I picked this up over the weekend, I figured it was a 36 from the sprocket but I didn't expect to flip her over and see "A2338".   It came with jeweled coke bottles that I removed, blah, it's not a boat...and I dig the way the wavey cut out in the seat matches the chain ring.  I need a reinforced stand, chain guard and one truss rod for her, but I am stupid happy with it for as rough as it is only because its mostly OG and the oldest CWC I have heard of....SO I gotta ask...Whats the lowest known serial #'d CWC?


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## sdoane2007 (Jul 26, 2016)

I believe this to be a 1937 cwc roadmaster. Just got it today. can you ID it with the serial number?
















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## Jeff54 (Jul 27, 2016)

sdoane2007 said:


> I believe this to be a 1937 cwc roadmaster. Just got it today. can you i.d. it with the serial number?





tricky dating but here's a 37 catalog photo of the 'standard model' only shown with truss rod forks:


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## OldSkipTooth (Aug 1, 2016)

It appears from you pics that your top tubes are the earlier narrow spacing design of pre 38 I believe.


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## markvieth (Aug 8, 2016)

Picked this up  unsure of the year   s/n posted


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## Jeff54 (Aug 9, 2016)

41-







markvieth said:


> Picked this up  unsure of the year   s/n posted
> ]




Summarizing what appears to be within this whole  thread:

one thing all pre-war CWC's had up until around 1941-42 was ears on the drop-outs and the drop out  down tubes were also straight. It's belived that post war and a few mid war examples maybe be found otherwise, they had began a series starting with the letter A.  A-F (1945-47-ish) and have curved down tubes, as yours are. Then, they stamped in,  After the serial number, near the edge of the bottom bracket, added a large letter C with a small w  inside of it, (Cw)  through 1948.  Once CWC got past their sets with only the Cw stamp they added an A, B, C, etc. to the Cw stamp area  (ACw. BCw, etc.) which is believed to date into 49-51. By 1952 they're dated 52Cw, 53Cw etc.

Which should mean you're looking at a 46-ish bike. However that fork looks like it may be newer, but I'm not certain.


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## BLWNMNY (Aug 18, 2016)

ATTACH=full]351433[/ATTACH] What is the year of this original CWC Roadmaster Luxury Liner? Serial No. J99879, no ACW after the numbers.


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## pedal_junky (Aug 19, 2016)

BLWNMNY said:


> ATTACH=full]351433[/ATTACH] What is the year of this original CWC Roadmaster Luxury Liner? Serial No. J99879, no ACW after the numbers.
> 
> View attachment 351433



Hmm, that's interesting. Can you get a good clear shot of the serial number?


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## BLWNMNY (Aug 19, 2016)

I will try!


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## Jeff54 (Aug 19, 2016)

BLWNMNY said:


> ATTACH=full]351433[/ATTACH] What is the year of this original CWC Roadmaster Luxury Liner? Serial No. J99879, no ACW after the numbers.
> 
> ]




It appears that you have this dropout ('Packman', [grin]) hence I'd be  surprised that a Cw mark does not follow the serial set, near edge of bottom bracket some times so light it's covered  by paint. . It's purported to be post war from 47 to 1950-ish. about 1947-8 the Cw appeared, then ACw etc. into 1951.
This has an ACw 48-50 ish mark but also just Cw had this drop out. without the Cw mark, it seems 46-47 would be appropriate as war era had a different dropout, shown below the packman.


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## CrazyDave (Aug 19, 2016)

^ thats had some miles on it  Good to see.


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## BLWNMNY (Aug 19, 2016)

Jeff54 said:


> It appears that you have this dropout ('Packman', [grin]) hence I'd be  surprised that a Cw mark does not follow the serial set, near edge of bottom bracket some times so light it's covered  by paint. . It's purported to be post war from 47 to 1950-ish. about 1947-8 the Cw appeared, then ACw etc. into 1951.
> This has an ACw 48-50 ish mark but also just Cw had this drop out. without the Cw mark, it seems 46-47 would be appropriate as war era had a different dropout, shown below the packman.
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info.......hopefully I can get a good picture of the bottom bracket and get a better idea.


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## BLWNMNY (Aug 19, 2016)

Here it is. What year?


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## pedal_junky (Aug 19, 2016)

'49.


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## BLWNMNY (Aug 19, 2016)

Cool!


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## BLWNMNY (Aug 19, 2016)

So ACW would a 1950 then?


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## pedal_junky (Aug 20, 2016)

BLWNMNY said:


> So ACW would a 1950 then?



Yes, ACW were 50-51 till someone posts a pic showing otherwise.


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## Gaby C (Aug 23, 2016)

Here's a CWC I not longer own. I'm showing photos of how it looked the day I bought it. I sent these images to nbhaa.com and they dated it as a 1940 CWC, but couldn't say if it was a Roadmaster. An old Roadmaster headbadge from eBay fit, so that's what it became.


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## oldiron73 (Sep 3, 2016)

Picked up this Roadmaster/Cleveland and welding bike last week.
Serial number A31596.
Did not realize the early serial number until I rubbed the paint off.
According to what I have been reading this is a 1935. 
I took a pick of the rim cause I love the 3 steps in them.


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## mazdaflyer (Sep 10, 2016)

jpromo said:


> I have never seen a 51Cw; I'll have to dig through this thread and find that sometime. It's very possible they began that numbering method towards the end of '51. The number of ACw stamps compared to the pictured examples, numbering one, for 51Cw would not make sense with production numbers to consider that was used the entire year. I've got ACw stamps A-J, so the assumed cutoff between 1950 and 1951 likely in the E-F range.



This old rusty bike with lichens has a "54Cw" serial number so I'm assuming that means it's a 1954 CWC build. 

 








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3step (Oct 5, 2016)

Just picked this one up. Looking for any info. Delete or let me know and I will delete if not a CWC. Thanks


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## pedal_junky (Oct 5, 2016)

3step said:


> Just picked this one up. Looking for any info. Delete or let me know and I will delete if not a CWC. ThanksView attachment 367072 View attachment 367073 View attachment 367074



Genuine CWC, 1937.


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## 3step (Oct 5, 2016)

Thanks!


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## MTGeorge (Oct 23, 2016)

My guess is that this one is 46-48ish but it is a small frame with different rear triangle geometry than the standard CWC.   It is sporting 26 tires under fenders that fit as they should.   I do not believe this is a 24" bike, but I have been wrong before.


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## apounders (Nov 11, 2016)

Have we decided that on an old Hawthorne  Cleveland welding the 53CW which appears after the serial number is the frame year?


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## pedal_junky (Nov 11, 2016)

Yep, It's a '53.


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## Crazy Cooter (Dec 18, 2016)

CWC Trail Blazer Supreme...rescued from the melting pot.

…….I was leaving the scrap yard a few years back and here comes this guy wheeling up a bicycle in one hand and a 5 gallon bucket in the other. I pull back in the yard and yelled to the guy "Hey, you're not going to scrap that are you?" He replied "you want it, it's yours." I say "Well I can't just take it." He says "Well then give me a dollar."  The rest is history.......I've only seen a handful of CWC Trail Blazers, and maybe 3 Trail Blazer Supremes. One was a ladies bike and it was just a photo of the head badge and Delta Twins below it. The second one was only a head badge from a ladies bike no other information. The third one is this one. I'm sure it once had a tank; there are rub marks from one. Probably had truss rods and a headlight, I'm not sure. There are some chisel marks at the bottom of the fork tube and paint knocked off like something could have once been there like a headlight mount. Or it may have had a fender mounted light. There is something there, could be remains of a light or someone mounted something using the former holes, the screw pattern is 2 ½”. The rear fender has a Delta light. Underneath the light there is a 3rd hole, so there may have been a former light with a closer screw pattern. The Delta light holes are 3 5/8” the former holes are 2 5/8”. Going by the book I have I think it’s a 1946. I’m not sure I’m no expert on these CWCs. The paint looks original, but has been touched up all over, and may have had a different scheme at the fender tips, I can see something under it not sure. I’d like to figure out exactly what this bicycle once had and get it back to what it once was. It being a Supreme I’m surprised that it doesn’t have a shock master front end on it.  Any ideas CWC fans?


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## mrg (Dec 18, 2016)

Is that a 24 in., #'s look more like 49


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## Crazy Cooter (Dec 18, 2016)

mrg said:


> Is that a 24 in., #'s look more like 49



It's a 26" I know it looks small in the pic for some reason. I think you're right on the year. I was reading that book wrong I guess if it has the CW after its the second phase of post war numbering.


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## mrg (Dec 18, 2016)

That rack and sprocket was used a lot on 24's and the original guard would have went back to the hole above axle. Interesting bike tho.


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## CWCMAN (Dec 18, 2016)

That apple core badge is sweet and probably worth more then the bike. Very strange to see an apple core badge on a bike that late in production.


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## Crazy Cooter (Dec 20, 2016)

Hiding under all that red paint and red primer was the original  striping and color, like a raspberry or wine color.


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## All bikes (Jan 26, 2017)

Roadmaster CWC, guessing late 30's early 40's , your educated guess would be appreciated. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BLWNMNY (Jan 26, 2017)

35/36?


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## pedal_junky (Jan 26, 2017)

Great candidate for a crusty rider, I like it. Looks '36 to me with that serial.


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## 3step (Feb 21, 2017)

Any info on this CWC Roadmaster? Date or model name? C serial number. Cw without 2 numbers before.


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## DX Shirey (Feb 21, 2017)

Any help appreciated on identifying the year of my CWC bike?  Serial# looks to be F28095. It is not badged either, so unsure if it's actually a Roadmaster, Western Flyer, etc. Thanks for any thoughts and input!


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## szathmarig (Feb 21, 2017)

It's a Roadmaster because Western Flyers have different chainrings. Does it have black out hubs? because the frame has lesser curve on the down tube, and no tangs for a drop stand on the chain stays, which makes it 42-45. The fork has early 50's springs, and bumper truss rods that are not correct. There is something wrong about the rack too, because it should be mounted to the seat post clamp. Wrong grips.


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## DX Shirey (Feb 21, 2017)

Thanks for giving it a look over.  It actually looks to be somewhat pieced together.  The front fender, chainguard, fork and frame all look to have original matching paint (although someone in it's past has taken sandpaper to the back half of the frame).  The rear fender correct in being peaked, but not the same red as other pieces.  
And, I know the rack is also not original (could be early 50's as well?).  It does not have wartime black-out hubs, but are New Departure Model D hubs which I think are correct for the early 40's era.  Lastly, the badge holes are 2 5/8's inches apart, but the holes on the Roadmaster badge I have are about 3 inches apart. So...


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## szathmarig (Feb 21, 2017)

That red is house paint, not original. You see the the original Burgundy color on the rear fender.


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## DX Shirey (Feb 21, 2017)

I agree on the front fender being painted by a previous owner and the rear being an original burgundy color, but the frame looks like it could be original red.  Definitely better quality than the front fender.  Here is a close up.  
The shorter head badge screw distance is still the mystery and makes me think the frame wasn't an original Roadmaster, but maybe a CWC build for one of it's other company bike lines...?


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## szathmarig (Feb 22, 2017)

Take the crank out, and you'll see the original paint inside the crank housing.


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## 3step (Feb 24, 2017)

3step said:


> Any info on this CWC Roadmaster? Date or model name? C serial number. Cw without 2 numbers before.
> 
> View attachment 425713
> 
> ...





Better photo of the serial number


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## BLWNMNY (Feb 24, 2017)

3step said:


> Better photo of the serial number
> 
> View attachment 426897



1949


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## 3step (Feb 24, 2017)

BLWNMNY said:


> 1949




Thanks, good info. Any guesses on a model name? Similar to the Luxury Liner, but does not have the springer.


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## BLWNMNY (Feb 24, 2017)

Hard to say, chainring is a Roadmaster. Here is my 47 with no rack.


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## 3step (Feb 25, 2017)

BLWNMNY said:


> View attachment 426958 Hard to say, chainring is a Roadmaster. Here is my 47 with no rack.




Thank you for the info. Nice bike! I really like the paint/patina! The paint scheme on the fenders are a work of art.


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## tfrentz (Mar 10, 2017)

My serial#: A91207  Badge says Cleveland Welding Roadmaster

What year do you think this is? A should rep an early production right?
I'm wondering what length of chain and how many links to look for when buying. Mine is missing the chain.
Any other links to find a skiptooth other than eBay?

thank you.


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## Jeff54 (Mar 11, 2017)

tfrentz said:


> My serial#: A91207  Badge says Cleveland Welding Roadmaster
> 
> What year do you think this is? A should rep an early production right?
> I'm wondering what length of chain and how many links to look for when buying. Mine is missing the chain.
> ...




Late 40's to early 50's. You'll need to look past the serial numbers, near edge of bottom bracket, for a big C with small w inside of it. What letter or number  precedes the Cw stamp. If numbers such as; 51,52, 53 etc, than that's the year, if letter or no letter but Cw stamp then list that.

Your rear dropout and bars, for the curved bottom section indicate this time frame whereas post[edit] Pre-war,  war will not be curved.


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## pedal_junky (Mar 14, 2017)

Bumping this one up. In order to get the best and quickest results on your CWC product, please check out post number 8 on the first page found here. 
http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/cleveland-welding-s-n-project.2705/

The basics...


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## Vincer (Mar 17, 2017)

I don't have any photos yet to post but recently acquired what I believe to be a 1948/49 Roadmaster. The serial number is C58106. Is there anyone that can confirm that this serial number is consistent with one of these years. Thanks in advance.


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## Oilit (May 4, 2017)

I have two of these bikes, a rough one and a nice one, both AMF Roadmaster Flying Falcons (middleweights). I read on this thread that AMF moved Roadmaster from Cleveland to little Rock in 1956, but the rough one is clearly stamped "56 CW", so that means it was built in Cleveland, correct? The number on the nicer one is a lot lighter, and if there's a year stamp, I don't see it. But it still has the "Masterweld - Cleveland Welding" sticker on the down tube, so I'm guessing (hoping) it's still a CWC built bike. Also, the connections between the bottom bracket and the frame seem to have a lot more brazing on the nicer one, but it looks like some of the original paint is still on the brass. Could this have been a factory repair? 
And, is there an easy to tell a Cleveland Roadmaster from the Little Rock version?
At full enlargement of the picture, the nice one's serial number looks like "D17905", and the "D" and the "5" look like they were double stamped. I appreciate any information you can share.


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## Kajun72 (May 9, 2017)

Well just picked this up this afternoon. What I was told 1950's AMF Roadster PaceMaker.   Ok it has a 19 " frame, 26 " tires, expanding seat post, no clamp. Has an extra ear on rear drop out for fender mounting. Bendix coaster brake in rear. Handle bars are not original. Roadmaster badge is faded. Serial # B37972  G  on BB. I will take proper photos in the morning. This photo is from CL. Anyone have any ideas when is was made?


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## mrg (May 9, 2017)

Don't think AMF had bought Roadmaster in 50 and with those rear dropouts and upper fender bridge its late 50's, 56 or 57 middle weight porobably


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## Kajun72 (May 10, 2017)

Well just picked this up this afternoon. What I was told 1950's AMF Roadster PaceMaker.   Ok it has a 19 " frame, 26 " tires, expanding seat post, no clamp. Has an extra ear on rear drop out for fender mounting. Bendix coaster brake in rear. Handle bars are not original. Roadmaster badge is faded. Serial # B37972  G  on BB. Anyone have any ideas when is was made?[/QUOTE]


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## Oilit (May 10, 2017)

Kajun72 said:


> Well just picked this up this afternoon. What I was told 1950's AMF Roadster PaceMaker.   Ok it has a 19 " frame, 26 " tires, expanding seat post, no clamp. Has an extra ear on rear drop out for fender mounting. Bendix coaster brake in rear. Handle bars are not original. Roadmaster badge is faded. Serial # B37972  G  on BB. Anyone have any ideas when is was made?





View attachment 464375

View attachment 464376

View attachment 464377

View attachment 464378

View attachment 464379

View attachment 464384[/QUOTE]
When I first posted mine under the "Middleweights" section, @Adamtinkerer said that frame style was made between 1955 and 1957, and I believe he's right, as best as I can tell.


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## Oilit (May 10, 2017)

Kajun72 said:


> Well just picked this up this afternoon. What I was told 1950's AMF Roadster PaceMaker.   Ok it has a 19 " frame, 26 " tires, expanding seat post, no clamp. Has an extra ear on rear drop out for fender mounting. Bendix coaster brake in rear. Handle bars are not original. Roadmaster badge is faded. Serial # B37972  G  on BB. Anyone have any ideas when is was made?





View attachment 464375

View attachment 464376

View attachment 464377

View attachment 464378

View attachment 464379

View attachment 464384[/QUOTE]
And it looks like the chrome on yours ought to clean up nice!


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## ratina (May 10, 2017)

Kajun72 said:


> Well just picked this up this afternoon. What I was told 1950's AMF Roadster PaceMaker.   Ok it has a 19 " frame, 26 " tires, expanding seat post, no clamp. Has an extra ear on rear drop out for fender mounting. Bendix coaster brake in rear. Handle bars are not original. Roadmaster badge is faded. Serial # B37972  G  on BB. Anyone have any ideas when is was made?





Can you post a picture of the serial number?

That frame style came out mid 1954, and stopped in 1957 I believe.


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## ratina (May 10, 2017)

Oilit said:


> I have two of these bikes, a rough one and a nice one, both AMF Roadmaster Flying Falcons (middleweights). I read on this thread that AMF moved Roadmaster from Cleveland to little Rock in 1956, but the rough one is clearly stamped "56 CW", so that means it was built in Cleveland, correct? The number on the nicer one is a lot lighter, and if there's a year stamp, I don't see it. But it still has the "Masterweld - Cleveland Welding" sticker on the down tube, so I'm guessing (hoping) it's still a CWC built bike. Also, the connections between the bottom bracket and the frame seem to have a lot more brazing on the nicer one, but it looks like some of the original paint is still on the brass. Could this have been a factory repair?
> And, is there an easy to tell a Cleveland Roadmaster from the Little Rock version?
> At full enlargement of the picture, the nice one's serial number looks like "D17905", and the "D" and the "5" look like they were double stamped. I appreciate any information you can share.




Correct, the "56Cw" stamp means 1956. The other appears to have a light "5" after, look at it from different angles and see if you can see the next number.


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## Kustomsoul (May 15, 2017)

Serial #B22050  Is this OG paint scheme if so what model & year thanks ?


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## Oilit (May 18, 2017)

Kustomsoul said:


> Serial #B22050  Is this OG paint scheme if so what model & year thanks ?
> 
> View attachment 467281



Is there a head badge? Or the outline of one? If there's no outline, I'd guess it was repainted.


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## szathmarig (Jun 3, 2017)

That frame was only made in 36-37, and it was probably badged as Roadmaster.


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## CWCMAN (Jun 4, 2017)

With a "B" serial, your frame is definitely a 1937. However, that style double bar roadster frame was used in 39 as well with model 0226-S

For some reason, this style frame seems to be missing from the 38 offerings in a 19" seat mast.


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## mrg (Jun 4, 2017)

Does it have a offset crank housing like the #A's and I have see a few different badges, I have ones with WF, Speed & Roadmaster.


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## CWCMAN (Jun 4, 2017)

Mark, 
I believe only the "A" serial would have the offset. 

Both 36 examples that I own as well as your 36 example have the offset.


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## mrg (Jun 5, 2017)

All 4 of my #A have offset cranks (and yours), just wondering if it stops there for sure, anyone have a #B?


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## barracuda (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm guessing 1940-ish on this G serial Monkey Warts? It's got ears.


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## ZE52414 (Jun 26, 2017)

Can I please get some help on dating this frame ?? These confuse me! Thanks guys. Hawthorne badged..


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## Jeff54 (Jun 26, 2017)

That was easier than most are. F dates in the 36 area. And WTH? it's Blue too. I thought it be burgundy or brown. matched color of rear rack too?  Check your hub for dates too.




ZE52414 said:


> View attachment 488024 Can I please get some help on dating this frame ?? These confuse me! Thanks guys. Hawthorne badged..


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## ZE52414 (Jun 26, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> That was easier than most are. F dates in the 36 area. And WTH? it's Blue too. I thought it be burgundy or brown. matched color of rear rack too?  Check your hub for dates too.



Yes the fenders rack and frame are all matching. Same blue. I will look at the rear hub and see if I can tell what the date is. Thanks man for your help.


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## ZE52414 (Jun 26, 2017)

Can't find any date codes though? And the front hub I can't see any writing


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## pedal_junky (Jun 26, 2017)

ZE52414 said:


> View attachment 488023 View attachment 488024 Can I please get some help on dating this frame ?? These confuse me! Thanks guys. Hawthorne badged..



F serial puts it as a 1940 built bike. No dropstand ears, curved fender braces and chain stays agree.


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## ZE52414 (Jun 26, 2017)

pedal_junky said:


> F serial puts it as a 1940 built bike. No dropstand ears, curved fender braces and chain stays agree.



Thank you sir


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## Jeff54 (Jun 27, 2017)

Yeah what junky said, ZE52414. I'm forgetting, as I have I think was told is  40-41 girl and crazy unusable serial numbers  and straight dropout bars with drop stand ears so, this period gets corn-fussing, a grey area. especially as, another caber has a G letter,  with morrow brake and hubs  dated 36, so frame is presuming 36 too and almost the same paint scheme except it's got another pinstripe on fenders  , red, out lining the white.   .  . I had to refresh and the curved dropouts are presumed to begin in 39 but not strong until 40. The curved fender  brackets also popular in 39 and continued prewar mostly on the higher end models.


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## bairdco (Jun 28, 2017)

"A" serial number, no "CW" marking, curved fender struts, bladed fork and winged H badge. 

Any ideas?


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## Jeff54 (Jul 1, 2017)

Curious about CWC in the 40's, 'how many bikes built in 1940?',  I stumbled on a bit of data so, I stole it (Screenshot) to put here: Dr Tomas D Mueller, son of The Vice president of CWC; Homer L. Mueller. Citing that, in 1940, Homer would brag of having 50 different head badges on his desk ("Place cards") for all the different makes and models they produced. And that in 1940,the whole bicycle market was split 3 ways:  Schwinn, CWC and the rest.  Finally an end to when CWC croaked off into AMF: 1953. And a few more tid-bit factoids. 'Popular Mechanics' Aug 1996.





https://books.google.com/books?i.d.=Q2YEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=cleveland+welding+company+1940&source=bl&ots=MQiVYWHVXD&sig=8-LNByXl0MmQSzJ7-3Nl6e6AKws&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyq6PVqunUAhVGOyYKHRuzAc04FBDoAQhPMAk#v=onepage&q=cleveland welding company 1940&f=false


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## Rich P (Jul 25, 2017)

I am glad I found this thread I had no idea who made my bike until now. I'm not sure if the springer forks, crank and chain gaurd are original? Looks like there is a similar fork on what I believe is a CW made firestone bike so maybe its original?
Any clues to what what I have and approximate year (47is?)would be appreciated. It's a cool bike and I can't wait to ride it.


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## Rich P (Jul 25, 2017)




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## Jeff54 (Oct 23, 2017)

bairdco said:


> "A" serial number, no "CW" marking, curved fender struts, bladed fork and winged H badge.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> ...



This recently popped up from I don't know where but, this later 1948 with a CWC and numbers above 48-51  doesn't seem right because nobody's found 48-51 numbers following the Cw mark wit 48-51. 52-55 yes but, otherwise no go.  yet, the earlier 47 and below does.

this would mean, IF IT'S CORRCT THEN, yours would be;  Dec 46- Feb 1947.  .  And the way yours appears, given all the data in this thread; it's pretty close too.


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## Jeff54 (Oct 23, 2017)

Rich P said:


> View attachment 650292 View attachment 650293



Think yours would be an 46-47 but the chart I just posted above doesn't confirm that. In fact it doesn't have a G with Cw mark , but. it's no different than the bike posted  above, prior to yours too. Except it's a girls bike but the drop out looks  identical. So, wild guess is it's 47 and that chart doesn't know it all. Potentially, the Cw stamp began in 47 verses 48. And for the front sprocket [chain ring] it's a Roadmaster, [see article above your post]   CWC's own brand.


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## bairdco (Oct 23, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> This recently popped up from I don't know where but, this later 1948 with a CWC and numbers above 48-51  doesn't seem right because nobody's found 48-51 numbers following the Cw mark wit 48-51. 52-55 yes but, otherwise no go.  yet, the earlier 47 and below does.
> 
> this would mean, IF IT'S CORRCT THEN, yours would be;  Dec 46- Feb 1947.  .  And the way yours appears, given all the data in this thread; it's pretty close too.
> View attachment 696858



Thanks. But now it's a 2017 custom 6 bar.


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## Jeff54 (Oct 24, 2017)

bairdco said:


> Thanks. But now it's a 2017 custom 6 bar.



No, now it's fricken Purrty too.


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## halfatruck (Oct 24, 2017)

I think I've posted this earlier but Phil is very knowledgeable on CWC dating.....
The key to dating your bike is the Cw symbol stamped after the end of the serial number. CWC ran through the same serial numbers several times from 1935 through 1956 and for postwar bikes the key to dating them is to first recognize the features that define them as postwar frames and then look for the symbol that follows the serial number. Bikes with the Cw stamp were from the second postwar run through the alphabet and the first bikes in this series rarely have the Cw stamp. By the time “D” was reached the suffix stamp became quite commonplace, probably to begin separating the series from the first wartime or postwar “D” serialed bikes. My best data-modeled estimate is that the Cw series was produced from 1947 through 1949. The exact transition from the first series to the second series is still debatable so I have slid the scale a bit several times to try to align it with actual bikes, ads, and other factors to come up with the most likely scenario. The second postwar serial number series bikes were produced with serial numbers ranging from A00001 through J99999, assumedly in sequence. A bike with a “D” serial number would, following this logic, have a build date in approximately mid 1948.

#63 RMS37, Feb 21, 2011


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## kwoodyh (Oct 24, 2017)

Hiawatha men's bike 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jeff54 (Oct 25, 2017)

halfatruck said:


> I think I've posted this earlier but Phil is very knowledgeable on CWC dating.....
> The key to dating your bike is the Cw symbol stamped after the end of the serial number. CWC ran through the same serial numbers several times from 1935 through 1956 and for postwar bikes the key to dating them is to first recognize the features that define them as postwar frames and then look for the symbol that follows the serial number. Bikes with the Cw stamp were from the second postwar run through the alphabet and the first bikes in this series rarely have the Cw stamp. By the time “D” was reached the suffix stamp became quite commonplace, probably to begin separating the series from the first wartime or postwar “D” serialed bikes. My best data-modeled estimate is that the Cw series was produced from 1947 through 1949. The exact transition from the first series to the second series is still debatable so I have slid the scale a bit several times to try to align it with actual bikes, ads, and other factors to come up with the most likely scenario. The second postwar serial number series bikes were produced with serial numbers ranging from A00001 through J99999, assumedly in sequence. A bike with a “D” serial number would, following this logic, have a build date in approximately mid 1948.
> 
> #63 RMS37, Feb 21, 2011



That chart above, has the dates of C series and if the D series was started on the date it says the next series placement would be that D series Started August 1947.

That line goes on too. Saying the run ended in September. Yet it is followed with the year 1952. The periods of the other, prior runs are about the same length. I think it possible September is the line you're looking for; 'The transition from the first series to the second'.

[edit] No, not Sept. exactly, the transition in the D Series would be during Aug. through Sept. 1947. chop that in half, then, September is your sugar daddy.


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## Lars Cohn (Nov 19, 2017)

Picked this up an antique mall. I had no clue what it was but thought it looked pretty cool. The vendor said it was a 50s era Schwinn. I've owned Schwinn's most of my life and knew it wasn't. I discovered through the CABE that it was indeed a CWC. I'm still not sure of the year. 1940?


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## JAF/CO (Nov 20, 2017)

That’s it 1940 


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## Oilit (Nov 20, 2017)

Lars Cohn said:


> Picked this up an antique mall. I had no clue what it was but thought it looked pretty cool. The vendor said it was a 50s era Schwinn. I've owned Schwinn's most of my life and knew it wasn't. I discovered through the CABE that it was indeed a CWC. I'm still not sure of the year. 1940?
> 
> View attachment 712075
> 
> ...



Nice pictures! I see now what they mean when they say the earlier drop-outs were bead welded instead of spot welded.


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## Lars Cohn (Nov 20, 2017)

Oilit said:


> Nice pictures! I see now what they mean when they say the earlier drop-outs were bead welded instead of spot welded.



Not the prettiest welds back there so kind of surprised since most of the frame joints are smoothed out. Frame feels rock solid. Wonder how carbon fiber will hold up 80 years from now?


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## kwoodyh (Nov 20, 2017)

Lars Cohn said:


> Not the prettiest welds back there so kind of surprised since most of the frame joints are smoothed out. Frame feels rock solid. Wonder how carbon fiber will hold up 80 years from now?




Nothing like good old steel, UV is the biggest foe of Carbon fiber.


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## PAValentine (Feb 11, 2018)

I just picked this up from another CABE member. So perhaps it has appeared in this thread before, but I couldn't find it if is. The seller said he thought it was a 1947 or there about....
The serial number gets fainter as the numbering progresses, like maybe the person stamping the numbers was running out of steam as he progressed with the duty, but the number appears to be A38080 with the CW very very faint. Almost lost. It must have been about quiting time...LOL...
I plan to repaint it as up close and personal the paint job leaves a lot to be desired!. But, I can't find much of anything as a guide to proper paint design and colors. Does anything even exist?
Any thoughts on this bike would be appreciated.


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## AntonyR (Feb 22, 2018)

Wow. I haven’t been on here for quite a while. I started this thread almost ten years ago and people are still adding to it. Awesome.


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## try2bfast (Mar 31, 2018)

I have a bike that I bought from a thrift shop in the early eighties. I was a young bike mechanic and I promptly refreshed the grease in the hubs, BB and headset. I rode it a very little and it has been sitting in my parents basement ever since. Lately I've been smitten by mid-nineties vintage bikes and I'd like this rather nice classic bike to find a new home.


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## CWCMAN (Mar 31, 2018)

I just sent you a message try2bfast.

I may be interested and I'm in California as well.

Check your in box or you can email me drzira40@msn.com

Eddie


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## GreenLakeMike (Apr 17, 2018)

Allright CWC owners.. Can we ID this one... Serial # is bad but  looks like 220339 or 226339 and what looks like 53 running the oppisite direction at the begining. numbers are scattered...


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## GreenLakeMike (Apr 17, 2018)

flipping A i posted the serial upside down


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## pedal_junky (Apr 17, 2018)

Can't really see the serial number, but I'm going to guess a '36 or '37.
 You're probably getting private messages about that seat right about now.


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## GreenLakeMike (Apr 17, 2018)

pedal_junky said:


> Can't really see the serial number, but I'm going to guess a '36 or '37.
> You're probably getting private messages about that seat right about now.



Going to try and work the serial number harder tomorrow. They are very shallow. Trying to not make them disappear. And yep. It's a "hot seat".

I do not normally collect bikes... My first 2. are this one and a 38 Schwinn D97XE Christmas Special. 

I like it.


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## scooter_trasher (Aug 10, 2018)

Here's one I just brought home, serial B44621, no bump seat post clamp, no center stand stops, looks like an Atwood kickstand and they took off my headlight before I got there to pick it up.


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## JAF/CO (Aug 10, 2018)

The Pics and “B “ serial 1943


James Frazier (209) 481-9464
jfkiller53@aol.com


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## scooter_trasher (Aug 10, 2018)

Thanks ,so I take it that it would not have came with a tank, I read something I believe on this thread about lost ( as in haven't came across any) B & C serial numbers and D series starting after the war,I havea couple of more pics in another thread, where I started scrubbing it clean.
ps I am pretty upset about the streamers being gone


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## scooter_trasher (Aug 10, 2018)

Something's off, I'm reading that the war department limited the number of bicycle MFG's to two Columbia & Huffman in Sept of1942 although there's no holes in the headtube for a badge, how many 1943 bikes could CWC have made, unless they catalouged unsold bikes built before Sept 42 ,as 43's?


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## nykhannan (Aug 12, 2018)

Any estimate on year and model of this bike? I have searched and searched and seem's to me something with the bike is a little off as in items seem to be mixed on the bike. I am also new to the restoration game so probably my issue. Appreciate the help!







Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## ratina (Aug 14, 2018)

nykhannan said:


> Any estimate on year and model of this bike? I have searched and searched and seem's to me something with the bike is a little off as in items seem to be mixed on the bike. I am also new to the restoration game so probably my issue. Appreciate the help!View attachment 851843View attachment 851844View attachment 851845
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk




That’s a postwar bike. Might look odd because it’s a 24” model. Post a pic of the serial number.


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## ratina (Aug 14, 2018)

scooter_trasher said:


> Here's one I just brought home, serial B44621, no bump seat post clamp, no center stand stops, looks like an Atwood kickstand and they took off my headlight before I got there to pick it up.
> 
> View attachment 850655
> 
> ...




I would say 1946 as it doesn’t have dropstand tabs.


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## Kato (Aug 18, 2018)

Throwing my recently acquired one into the mix 
I'm thinking mid-40's range


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## Thegreek (Aug 25, 2018)

Hi new here trying to get an age and value on a womans cwc bike any and all help would be apreaciated thanks again


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## BillMetric (Sep 1, 2018)

Working on a few '36 Roadmasters,  figured I should add the serial numbers to this list as they are odd, both are double bar roadsters one has a Hawthorne badge with horizontal screw holes, other has vertical Roadmaster size screw holes, both have small paisley chain rings and close chain stays with off center crank spacing, "V" forks etc. 
Serial numbers are - get this:
X6820 : Vertical screw holes for Roadmaster badge
Z7995 : Hawthorne horizontal screws
maybe these are "Pre A" serial numbers or something, to borrow an early Porsche term?
by the way I'm looking for early chain guards for these, a 19 holer and a paisley hole, either or, one of each maybe
Thanks!


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## Hmmm70 (Oct 31, 2018)

Hi all. This is a wonderful site.  I pick this up Friday for my fiancee to use at a local vintage bicycle ride/show (just missed this year's). What year would you estimate it,  and what is correct/ wrong with it as it sits, other than the speedometer? Thanks!


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## ratina (Oct 31, 2018)

Thegreek said:


> Hi new here trying to get an age and value on a womans cwc bike any and all help would be apreaciated thanks again
> 
> View attachment 858030




That’s a 1950 model


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## ratina (Oct 31, 2018)

Hmmm70 said:


> View attachment 892858
> 
> Hi all. This is a wonderful site.  I pick this up Friday for my fiancee to use at a local vintage bicycle ride/show (just missed this year's). What year would you estimate it,  and what is correct/ wrong with it as it sits, other than the speedometer? Thanks!




It was built between 50-54. Serial number will tell exact date. 

The seat, chain guard and grips are wrong. Rims might be too.


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## Krakatoa (Nov 2, 2018)

Like @BillMetric above I am wondering about the earliest CWC serial numbers, as well as the X & Z numbers.

Here is a cool badged Non Pareil Bicycle Works St Louis USA SPEED Double Bar Roadster carcass I recently got. It has a very low A serial # with center punched dots...

Any insight would be appreciated!

N

@CWCMAN


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## Harley Mclemore (Nov 2, 2018)

i need that tank lol







Kato said:


> Throwing my recently acquired one into the mix
> I'm thinking mid-40's range
> 
> View attachment 854571
> ...




Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Kato (Nov 2, 2018)

Harley Mclemore said:


> i need that tank lol
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk




Sorry man - Sold the bike...........and the tank went with it lol


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## Hmmm70 (Nov 7, 2018)

ratina said:


> It was built between 50-54. Serial number will tell exact date.
> 
> The seat, chain guard and grips are wrong. Rims might be too.



Hi Ratina.  Thank you for the response.  Here is the serial number.  G61665 then A and possibly C.  Does that help at all?
Also, given the pictures I posted, and the non-correct pieces you identified (at least those, I'm sure), what would you all do with this?  Strip it and redo it, try to get original parts, or just ride it as is?  The tires are mismatched and have cracks, so they at least will go.  The gray paint on the rims is chipping also.


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## Boris (Nov 8, 2018)

Phil (RMS37) was good enough to do the research and put this chart together for us. Let's return the favor and use *THIS VERSION* of it to acknowledge that fact.


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## BillMetric (Nov 11, 2018)

picked up another Z number: Z4370, and I found my chain guards, one each a paisley and a 19 holer, just need a battery tube to finish this 1936 Hawthorne


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## Krakatoa (Nov 11, 2018)

Really nice neat bike above! 

Great save nice presentation welcome to the CABE!

@BillMetric

And a "good job" is in order to:

@Boris 

I also keep Phil's chart handy at all times

Nate


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## BillMetric (Nov 11, 2018)

Thanks Krakatoa, 
I sold my first classic bike while riding it around at the Hershey PA car swap in 1986, it was a complete brown house painted over red '36 Roadmaster flat tank, was just missing the braced drop stand and battery tube, I sold the bike for $200 ... but I had only paid $50 for it ! I may still have the original chain tread tires I saved off it somewhere but I haven't seen them for 30 years, I have an old photo of it someplace I should post when I find it, wish I had written down the serial number somewhere, I'd gladly refund the 1986 purchase price if the buyer would like to sell it back


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## skiptooth (Nov 12, 2018)

here is a few things;  I believe is correct w/ cwc the seat post clamp is a big factor ;  the rib seat post  means 1948-53 also the crash bars on the springer and carrier  are 50's verify w/ other members ! I'm very happy that Phil will take the time to straighten us out... thank you phil....Richard...


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## TieDye (Nov 13, 2018)

skiptooth said:


> here is a few things;  I believe is correct w/ cwc the seat post clamp is a big factor ;  the rib seat post  means 1948-53 also the crash bars on the springer and carrier  are 50's verify w/ other members ! I'm very happy that Phil will take the time to straighten us out... thank you phil....Richard...



Skiptooth, I have a ladies Roadmaster CW series, serial number D12558 Cw.  By Phil's serial number chart, it would have been made December 1947 to March 1948.  With the number being 125... I am assuming most likely January of 1948.  And, so, I refer to it as a 1948 as I feel confident about that.  My seat post is welded and does not have the rib.  What do you make of that?  Can anyone else help with this detail with their serial numbers?  It may help us to nail this detail a bit more.  Thanks!
Deb


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## BillMetric (Dec 7, 2018)

heres my old '36 flat tank from 1986 in front of the '29 Ford I just inherited, sorry no serial number, it was an A# though, it had a stainless Delta light on it when I sold it at Hershey PA swap back then, anyone seen it lately? I'm trying to find another identical saddle, it looks like a single wire frame Troxel but not sure what model it would have been?


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## BillMetric (Dec 10, 2018)

Found those tires I took off in 1986, I believe they are the original 1936 tires and tubes with threaded metal stems, I don't think the repros have the checkerboard sidewalls
United States Rubber Company
Giant Chain Tread No. 778
"the original chain tread"
Des. Pat. No. 43454


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## Krakatoa (Dec 13, 2018)

Do you recall what the badge read on your flat tank? Roadmaster Speed King Pilot?

@BillMetric


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## OSCAR...N... (Dec 14, 2018)

Hello and great idea for  this Project, about (CWC) BIKES S/N. CAUSE I HAVE(5) BIKES,  FROM (CWC) THAT'S THE ONLY BIKES i GONNA LOVE FOREVER FIRST, CAUSE MY SON & DAUGHTER BORN HERE IN CLEVELAND OHIO & (2) JUST LOVE THE WAY THEY, MAKE THE PREWAR (R.MASTER) BICYCLES UUUUUFFFF LOOKS SO H.DUTYS AND FOR, THAT REASON THEY ARE IN MY LITTLE COLLECTION. (2 /girls) & (3/boys) I am Very happy......


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## OSCAR...N... (Dec 14, 2018)

Thank you for this (S/N/P.) AnthonyR from me and my son.  My friend  GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS.....


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## BillMetric (Dec 14, 2018)

*Krakatoa*
 it was the standard Roadmaster checkered flags badge for flat tank, I remember chipping all the house paint off it and touched up the flags pretty badly with model car paint, also remember the tiny screws being barely capable of holding the tank and the badge in place


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## skiptooth (Dec 17, 2018)

Here is a few things I learned back in the 1980's, ribbed seat clamp 1948-to-1953. straight bar on boys head set to crank set probably early 1940's. tanks , carriers , seats can be easily changed. I would love to see the out come of this project, I think its great!!   Richard.....


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## skiptooth (Dec 17, 2018)

TieDye said:


> Skiptooth, I have a ladies Roadmaster CW series, serial number D12558 Cw.  By Phil's serial number chart, it would have been made December 1947 to March 1948.  With the number being 125... I am assuming most likely January of 1948.  And, so, I refer to it as a 1948 as I feel confident about that.  My seat post is welded and does not have the rib.  What do you make of that?  Can anyone else help with this detail with their serial numbers?  It may help us to nail this detail a bit more.  Thanks!
> Deb


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## skiptooth (Dec 17, 2018)

Deb.I would go with phils numbers because back in the 80's we were guessing no tect. then! even now you can be 6 mo. off . does your bike have a drop stand? springer? and what type of carrier? skirt guards?  I may have one posted on the lounge ...title; what else do you collect.. page 4 on the lounge, page 8 on what else do you collect ... check it out...Richard....


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## TieDye (Dec 17, 2018)

skiptooth said:


> Here is a few things I learned back in the 1980's, ribbed seat clamp 1948-to-1953. straight bar on boys head set to crank set probably early 1940's. tanks , carriers , seats can be easily changed. I would love to see the out come of this project, I think its great!!   Richard.....



Early or late 1948 for ribbed seat tube clamp?


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## TieDye (Dec 17, 2018)

skiptooth said:


> Deb.I would go with phils numbers because back in the 80's we were guessing no tect. then! even now you can be 6 mo. off . does your bike have a drop stand? springer? and what type of carrier? skirt guards?  I may have one posted on the lounge ...title; what else do you collect.. page 4 on the lounge, page 8 on what else do you collect ... check it out...Richard....



D12558 Cw. Two-tone green.


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## Krakatoa (Dec 17, 2018)

I LOVE GREEN CWC BIKES!!!


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## skiptooth (Dec 18, 2018)

awesome bike love the org. paint ! GLAD YOU HAVE IT DATED... really like these w/ the closed chain guard and all the curved braces..keep your eye out for org. paint rack ,light, tank. dress guards.( ride it and have fun).....


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## Boris (Dec 29, 2018)

Finally got around to photographing and posting this lovely 1940 lady which I purchased about 10 or so years ago. Serial number is F83455.


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## Boris (Dec 29, 2018)

Admittedly, I'm not terribly familiar with these later Cleveland Welding bikes. But from everything I've seen, I believe this is a 1953, however the serial number on the BB is F18343. According to my chart, I should be seeing a 53Cw somewhere.


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## OSCAR...N... (Dec 30, 2018)

Boris said:


> Finally got around to photographing and posting this lovely 1940 lady which I purchased about 10 or so years ago. Serial number is F83455.
> View attachment 926196
> 
> View attachment 926197
> ...



Hi Mr. Boris Beautiful bike.  I have a same bike. But my bike came with the Curve fender braces and Curves Rear rack legs and the ( serial #) ***** with the letter (H) love my bike ride her all the time So thanks for preserve another great (CWC) Product.......


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## Scout Evans (Dec 30, 2018)

Boris said:


> Admittedly, I'm not terribly familiar with these later Cleveland Welding bikes. But from everything I've seen, I believe this is a 1953, however the serial number on the BB is F18343. According to my chart, I should be seeing a 53Cw somewhere.
> View attachment 926200
> 
> View attachment 926201
> ...



The 53CW should be clearly visible to the right of the number. I think yours may be a 1948 model.Here's a 49 model:


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## Boris (Dec 30, 2018)

Scout Evans said:


> The 53CW should be clearly visible to the right of the number. I think yours may be a 1948 model.Here's a 49 model:View attachment 926461



Ah Ha! Thank you!
Regardless of whether mine is a '48 or '49 shouldn't I be seeing a CW after the serial number somewhere? What leads you to believe mine is a '48?


----------



## Scout Evans (Dec 30, 2018)

Boris said:


> Ah Ha! Thank you!
> Regardless of whether mine is a '48 or '49 shouldn't I be seeing a CW after the serial number somewhere? What leads you to believe mine is a '48?



I see on the chart where it shows a CW stamp for 48. I stand corrected. I think CWC was consistent with the stampings. Maybe an early 46 model with the F serial number.


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## Oldude13 (Jan 12, 2019)

Heres one of mine


----------



## OSCAR...N... (Jan 12, 2019)

Oldude13 said:


> Heres one of mine
> 
> View attachment 931847
> 
> ...







Maybe 1958/59....???


----------



## schwinnman67 (Jan 12, 2019)

Posted before about my Hiawatha, but still confused as to the year.... Been told 1947-1950.


----------



## JAF/CO (Jan 12, 2019)

I think 47-48


James Frazier (209) 481-9464
jfkiller53@aol.com


----------



## Oilit (Jan 12, 2019)

Felixnegron said:


> Maybe 1958/59....???



AMF used that chain guard on the 1959 Flying Falcon (I've been told it was originally a Shelby guard), and that's also about when the star sprocket came out, but I think 1957 was the last year for the serial number on the bottom bracket. Maybe stamped late in '57 for sale in '58? Except I don't see a "G" beside the serial number, which a '57 should have if my theory is right.


----------



## Oilit (Jan 14, 2019)

Kajun72 said:


> Well just picked this up this afternoon. What I was told 1950's AMF Roadster PaceMaker.   Ok it has a 19 " frame, 26 " tires, expanding seat post, no clamp. Has an extra ear on rear drop out for fender mounting. Bendix coaster brake in rear. Handle bars are not original. Roadmaster badge is faded. Serial # B37972  G  on BB. Anyone have any ideas when is was made?





View attachment 464375

View attachment 464376

View attachment 464377

View attachment 464378

View attachment 464379

View attachment 464384[/QUOTE]
I think the "G" means it's 1957, according to Phil Marshall's serial number list. Evidently they quit using the "56Cw" mark sometime in 1956 and just used the CW style serial number with a letter. I've seen one picture somewhere on here with the serial number and an "F", which I'm guessing was 1956, and there's been two or three with the "G". I have a 1958 and the serial number has a different format, it begins with "H" followed by a 6 digit number, and by that time it was also moved to the left drop-out.


----------



## Harley Mclemore (Jan 14, 2019)

Heres from a book I have about cwc serials




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## Boris (Jan 16, 2019)

Harley Mclemore said:


> Heres from a book I have about cwc serials
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk




What book?


----------



## vincev (Jan 16, 2019)

Boris said:


> Finally got around to photographing and posting this lovely 1940 lady which I purchased about 10 or so years ago. Serial number is F83455.
> View attachment 926196
> 
> View attachment 926197
> ...



Thanks for posting the pictures  on a thread from 2008.it only took you 10 years.I guess its hard finding someone who can develop film in Portland


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## Harley Mclemore (Jan 16, 2019)

this one



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## Harley Mclemore (Jan 16, 2019)

bought it off ebay!!

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## Oilit (Jan 19, 2019)

Harley Mclemore said:


> Heres from a book I have about cwc serialsView attachment 933175
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



This looks correct up through 1957, but the last two years don't match what I've seen. @Mitt25 posted pictures of a nice 1958 Luxury Liner (including the serial number) at the end of this thread:
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1950s-amf-roadmaster-luxury-liner-help.113562/
And as you can see, the serial number starts with an "H" followed by a six digit number and it's on the left drop-out. There may be bikes with the "H" on the bottom bracket, but I haven't seen one yet. I have a 1958 Flying Falcon that I posted in this thread:
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/amf-roadmaster-flying-falcon.98453/
I don't have a good picture of the serial number but the format matches Mitt25's bike. I also have a 1960 that uses the same form, "K" (for 1960) plus a 6 digit number, and the year is confirmed by the date on the hub. In the 1959 catalog all the model numbers begin with "J", and I would expect to see serial numbers on the bikes starting with "J". If someone has a 1959 marked like the example in this book, please post a picture.


----------



## Archie Sturmer (Jan 20, 2019)

schwinnman67 said:


> Posted before about my Hiawatha, but still confused as to the year.... Been told 1947-1950.... *E-65,100-CW*



From the chart from an RMS-Phil, an E-CW might be April-May 1948.
1947 would more likely have an A, B, or C; 1950 would have an ACW.
There are *other *charts with numbers, (which *cause *some confusion).


----------



## Oilit (Jan 23, 2019)

I believe this is a 1959, unless somebody knows better.


----------



## tripple3 (Jan 26, 2019)

1936 Clipper
Offset BB and A serial number
Thread here: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1936-clipper-cwc-double-bar.133565/


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## OSCAR...N... (Jan 26, 2019)

tripple3 said:


> 1936 Clipper
> Offset BB and A serial number
> 
> 
> ...







Love this one nice (CWC) From CLEVELAND Ohio......jijijijiji.....


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## Rivnut (Feb 21, 2019)

Last week I responded to an ad for a prewar Elgin that was pretty bare and the seller wanted too much for it.  I made an offer he didn't accept so back to his lowest price and i still balked.  He then threw this AMF Roadmaster in to sweeten the deal.  I got both bikes fo $75.
Now I'd like some help identifying the year.  Here are the pictures you've asked for.   Any help will be appreciated.  I wiped it down and stuck a seat I had on it.  It's also wearing balloon tires on middleweight rims.


----------



## Oilit (Feb 21, 2019)

Rivnut said:


> Last week I responded to an ad for a prewar Elgin that was pretty bare and the seller wanted too much for it.  I made an offer he didn't accept so back to his lowest price and i still balked.  He then threw this AMF Roadmaster in to sweeten the deal.  I got both bikes fo $75.
> Now I'd like some help identifying the year.  Here are the pictures you've asked for.   Any help will be appreciated.  I wiped it down and stuck a seat I had on it.  It's also wearing balloon tires on middleweight rims.
> 
> View attachment 952579
> ...



If you go to Phil Marshall's CWC serial number list on page 22 of this thread - https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/cleveland-welding-s-n-project.2705/page-22 - you see the letters start with "G" in 1957. Some of the bikes in 1956 were marked with the "56Cw" mark, but I think they changed to the letter system sometime during the year and started marking the bikes with the serial number and "F" on the bottom bracket, like yours. Late 1956 or early 1957 was also when the address in the ads changed from Cleveland to Little Rock, so there may be a connection, although that's purely a WAG (Wild A** Guess) on my part.


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## Oilit (Feb 21, 2019)

Rivnut said:


> Last week I responded to an ad for a prewar Elgin that was pretty bare and the seller wanted too much for it.  I made an offer he didn't accept so back to his lowest price and i still balked.  He then threw this AMF Roadmaster in to sweeten the deal.  I got both bikes fo $75.
> Now I'd like some help identifying the year.  Here are the pictures you've asked for.   Any help will be appreciated.  I wiped it down and stuck a seat I had on it.  It's also wearing balloon tires on middleweight rims.
> 
> View attachment 952579
> ...



I notice yours says "Cleveland Welding" on the "Masterweld" decal. Can you post a picture of the head badge? The head badges seemed to change several times during this period.


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## Rivnut (Feb 21, 2019)

Oilit said:


> I notice yours says "Cleveland Welding" on the "Masterweld" decal. Can you post a picture of the head badge? The head badges seemed to change several times during this period.



I wish I could but the headbadge is missing.  All I know is that the remaining rivets are horizontal and have a 3" spacing.  I'm curious and looking for an appropriate badge as well.

Ed


----------



## Oilit (Feb 23, 2019)

Rivnut said:


> I wish I could but the headbadge is missing.  All I know is that the remaining rivets are horizontal and have a 3" spacing.  I'm curious and looking for an appropriate badge as well.
> 
> Ed



Horizontal? As in side to side? You must mean vertical or I'm missing your meaning. If they're three inches apart horizontally they're on the sides of the head tube. I'm guessing the badge on your bike would have been this one (aluminum), also from 1956. I've seen them in brass as well, maybe from 1955.


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## Rivnut (Feb 23, 2019)

You are correct.  VERTICAL.  I must have been lying down or looking at the picture sideways.  The holes a're actually spaced 2-15/16" apart.  Thanks for the picture.  I think that I've seem sonme like that for sale, but they're all new repo's.  Looking for something more in keeping with the condition of the rest of the bike.

Thanks, ED


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## jlively970 (Mar 30, 2019)

Hello, new to the Cabe and looking for some info on a Cleveland Welding Company RoadMaster I recently acquired and know little to nothing about...  The pics in the "green grass" are from before I got the bike supposedly in it's original condition.  The last pics are the bike in parts as I'm taking inventory, cleaning, getting ready for the rebuild.  I am keeping the rusty/ratty patina fyi.  Any help on this old girl would be greatly appreciated.

I am also having some issues with the Shockmaster Fork as it seems that I have the incorrect truss arm bracket, originally in the "grassy pics", the bracket looks very different from what I have now.  Only 1/4" of threads on the head tube for the head nut (not sure if this is adequate or not...).  Also bottom truss bracket on the right is roughly 5/16" shorter than the left side.  The head tube measures 6-5/16".  Does this seem like the correct fork for the bike??

I know the tank is not original.  I am also looking for a few misc pieces of hardware if somebody had parts for this bike.

Serial # : H14894 (1 A stamped to side and below)

Thanks in advance!


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## JAF/CO (Mar 30, 2019)

40-41 looks good put it back together and ride it


James Frazier (209) 481-9464
jfkiller53@aol.com


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## jlively970 (Mar 30, 2019)

JAF/CO said:


> 40-41 looks good put it back together and ride it
> 
> 
> James Frazier (209) 481-9464
> jfkiller53@aol.com



Amen, thank you James.


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## szathmarig (Apr 2, 2019)

You can change the length to line it up with the holes on the fork, by unscrewing the lower truss rods.


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## szathmarig (Apr 2, 2019)

You have a postwar truss rod top bracket now, the one on the old pictures was the correct one for this prewar bike.


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## jlively970 (Apr 2, 2019)

szathmarig said:


> You have a postwar truss rod top bracket now, the one on the old pictures was the correct one for this prewar bike.




Muchas Gracias - thank you for the advice.  Do I need to remove the spring and lower truss rod from the fork crown to make the length adjustment?  The, what I believe to be correct, truss rod bracket is in the mail!


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## szathmarig (Apr 3, 2019)

You don't need to remove anything, just turn the truss rods, and counter hold the spring, so the spring doesn't turn.


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## whopperchopper (May 9, 2019)

Cwc cycle truck with a D04758 serial number... 1944 ish??


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## CWCMAN (May 9, 2019)

Pictures please


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## whopperchopper (May 9, 2019)

CWCMAN said:


> Pictures please



Missing a lot of parts, I think this truck has been through a few owners


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## CWCMAN (May 9, 2019)

Thanks Whopperchopper,

I too have a CWC delivery cycle and I recently sold another in pretty complete condition.

Most I have seen are "D" serial. The delivery cycle first appeared in the catalog in 1940. I am not sure when they ended production though.

My delivery cycle has the same chain ring as on your bike but I have also seen them with the paisley chain ring and the pork chop style chain ring.

The drop stand has also had two variations throughout production.

Your missing a few key and pricey parts but you have a good start.


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## whopperchopper (May 9, 2019)

CWCMAN said:


> Thanks Whopperchopper,
> 
> I too have a CWC delivery cycle and I recently sold another in pretty complete condition.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I figured it might be an early one with that low serial number, but who knows for sure. I highly dought I will restore or look for original parts. Thinking of a nice rider, front drum, 3 speed, I can weld up a close copy of  the basket mount . Mainly would like the correct head badge, pedals, grips, and maybe seat. Thanks CWCMAN


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## CWCMAN (May 9, 2019)

This is my current delivery which is still Unassembled since purchase two years ago. Its all original paint and complete with all original parts. Also a "D" serial.





















This green delivery is the one that I sold last year "D" serial. Wrong chain ring, bars and missing seat and basket but otherwise all complete including the other bracket for the basket which is not pictured.


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## whopperchopper (May 9, 2019)

CWCMAN said:


> This is my current delivery which is still Unassembled since purchase two years ago. Its all original paint and complete with all original parts. Also a "D" serial.
> 
> View attachment 994893
> 
> ...





CWCMAN said:


> This is my current delivery which is still Unassembled since purchase two years ago. Its all original paint and complete with all original parts. Also a "D" serial.
> 
> View attachment 994893
> 
> ...



Nice,
Yours will probably be one of the most original and complete ones out there! If it's not to much trouble, could you tell me how long the angle iron basket supports are? Are they 1" or 1.5" angle? And how far apart are they at the front?? Thanks Mike , my email is:  a71demon@aol.com


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## CWCMAN (May 9, 2019)

Thanks Mike, The CWC delivery is not common at all compared to the Schwinn cycle truck. I am lucky to own a solid and complete original paint example.

I will get those measurements for you this weekend.

Eddie


----------



## Padyak Boss (Jun 1, 2019)

AntonyR said:


> Since many of us have asked, and many of us has now or maybe had in the past a CWC built Roadmaster, I think it's time to start a List. If a picture/serial number list could be started and updated with new entries including frame characteristics, I think we over time could rebuild a serial number/date table to date pre-AMF Roadmaster. With this, we could possibly be able to date Western Fliers and other private label frames built by CWC. The ultimate goal would be to have this list added to the features box along side the Schwinn numbering link.



  Nice Intetion AnthonyR  general


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## Rivnut (Jun 1, 2019)

Here's my contribution.  Still a works-in-progress but heres the nitty gritty.  I think it's been narrowed down to a 56 or 57.

















I foind the fenders later.  One got an oxalic acid bath before the other


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## Freqman1 (Jun 20, 2019)

See if this helps  https://vintageamericanbicycles.com/index.php/cleveland-welding-co-roadmaster/   V/r Shawn


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## Pressed Steel 1915 (Jun 21, 2019)

1937-38 CWC Packard

D87175 .....Lower on bottom bracket is a 6 or 9 ?


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## tech549 (Jun 29, 2019)

just got this in the mail yesterday looks like a 37


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## frankenbike (Jul 23, 2019)

I have three CWC bikes and I will post pics when they are up and running.
#1     F02691 very early 1940 Roadmaster boys frame & springer found in a basement of a friend---Free
#2     F20305 early 1940 Roadmaster girls bike robbed wheels & parts to get #1 on the road found in a neighbor's basement---Free
#3     H49056 early 1941 All American boys bike left outside over forty years found in an antique shop as wall art---Free
Thanks to members mynameislegion and stezell, #3 will be up & running in another week. #1 is going through a rebuild and paint and I am looking for enough parts to complete #2.
Interesting side note: the badge on #3 was turned 180* from the Roadmaster badge and then stamped All American etc.
Thanks, Gary.


----------



## jlively970 (Aug 4, 2019)

Just picked up this CWC Roadmaster serial number D74212.  Per the serial number chart guessing to be 1938?

What does the 23 stamped below the serial number mean?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Freqman1 (Aug 4, 2019)

Every once in a while I see stray numbers stamped like this. The font appears different so I don't know if these are factory or not but don't think they hold much relevence. V/r Shawn


----------



## jlively970 (Aug 4, 2019)

Freqman1 said:


> Every once in a while I see stray numbers stamped like this. The font appears different so I don't know if these are factory or not but don't think they hold much relevence. V/r Shawn




Ok, thanks for the input, figured as much.


----------



## Barkamatic (Aug 22, 2019)

Sorry. Double posted.


----------



## Barkamatic (Aug 22, 2019)

Picked this up today. I'm thinking it's a 36. Any ideas? Number A10912


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## Harley Mclemore (Aug 22, 2019)

looks like my 1941 with the little bend in the second tube.

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## szathmarig (Aug 23, 2019)

1941 frame style.


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## Barkamatic (Aug 24, 2019)

Thanks Harley and szathmarig...we were hoping for just a bit more information than that.  Also, not challenging your expertise, but hoping for a better understanding of how you determined any information you share.  Incidentally, the bike is shown exactly as it was when we pulled it from the barn.

We understood the rear wheel hub, from New Departure in Bristol, CT, Model D, is consistent with a 1930s date.  We think the bike originally had a drop-stand based on the wings.  The skip tooth gear is on a 6 spoke star patterned sprocket.  Thinking maybe this is a "Frankenstein" of multiple bike parts.  Is the design of the frame known as "bent tank"?  Was there a tank on this bike originally?  As far as the serial number is, we're very confused, knowing one company (was it CWC?) started the alphabet all over after hitting the letter K...But there is no characteristic CW found near the number, which is A10912, and if that wasn't enough to confuse us, we found the chart showing E serial numbers consistent with 1935 as year of manufacture, going backwards this would be 1931 unless it's the "restart" of the serial number use.   We can't even figure out if it was made by  Shelby, Huffman, Murray...or who.  The bike it most looks like is the 1942 Elgin Tiki Cruiser by Murray.  Torrington handlebars - company name?  Style?  We think the bike was originally green with black fenders with white designs.  

Trying to figure out the best next steps for this bike.  My thought is to do something as the photo shown if the value isn't significant, hubs has other ideas about parting out, selling as is, or restoring.  

We can't read fast enough to find the information we're looking for, and appreciate any explanations as to how you arrive at your conclusions.  Thanks in advance!


----------



## Freqman1 (Aug 24, 2019)

For CWC and many others you need to use the serial number charts in concert with a knowledge of the frame styles offered through the years. The bike looks legit to me as it sits. Missing a rear fender brace, dropstand clip, dropstand, and likely had truss rods. Are there holes in the front fender for a headlight? Just about all CWC prewar frames had the built in dropstand ears which is a way (most of the time) to tell its a prewar frame. It may not have had chain guard, tank, or rack if unequipped model. V/r Shawn


----------



## Harley Mclemore (Aug 24, 2019)

this is the one i have been told is a 1941. murray built western flyer.



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## Barkamatic (Aug 24, 2019)

Thanks Shawn.  There are no holes in the front fender where a light may have been secured.


----------



## Freqman1 (Aug 24, 2019)

Barkamatic said:


> Thanks Shawn.  There are no holes in the front fender where a light may have been secured.



Then my bet would be an unequipped model-no guard, rack, or tank. V/r Shawn


----------



## Barkamatic (Aug 24, 2019)

That was our logical conclusion, Shawn.  Thanks for confirming.


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## szathmarig (Aug 24, 2019)

Before 1940 CWC "bent tank" frames had straight down tubes, and straight chain stays. Your bike has upsweep chain stays, and curved down tube. Bent tank models were discontinued after the war, and the drop stand ears were dropped after 41, so that narrows it down to 1941 model year.


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## Barkamatic (Aug 24, 2019)

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation of how the year was determined.


----------



## Goldenrod (Oct 24, 2019)

I have a rare WH frame that was dimpled for adding a Whizzer and it came with one on it.  I'll send you pictures when I get home.  Thanks for doing this.


----------



## 99 bikes (Nov 8, 2019)

Here is another CWC bike with a mysterious pre vs post war serial number. It is a Hawthorne Lite Wate and very original.

Link to CABE page: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/hawthorne-lite-wate.160936/

Serial number "J05626".


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## wordman5 (Nov 23, 2019)

Have had this frame floating around the shop for the better part of 10 years. It came with a pile of Whizzer stuff, hence the motor mounts. After reading this thread, I believe it's a CWC Roadmaster frame, serial number C03531. Could someone tell me if that's pre or post war? It was a real mongrel when I got it, with Canadian bits such as the crank arms from a CCM. I bought a Roadmaster fork for the project about nine years ago, but things don't move very fast around here. If you could indulge a couple of questions: Is the chainring Roadmaster? Would anyone have a few extra Roadmaster parts, such as a crank, chainguard or neck? All are missing! Thanks very much!


----------



## Just Jeff (Dec 7, 2019)

I just picked this one up today. I’m guessing it’s a 1946. But not 100% on that yet.


----------



## JAF/CO (Dec 7, 2019)

Looks 41 to me


jfkiller53@aol.com
1 (209) 481-9464
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Just Jeff (Dec 7, 2019)

I assumed it was postwar because of the lack of drop stand tabs. Still learning about CWC frames, as this is my first one


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## eureka1 (Feb 22, 2020)

here is my recent barn find CWC . I believe it's a 1947 vintage , no badge or other marking.


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## Scout Evans (Feb 22, 2020)

B xxxxx with A Cw is fall of 1949.


----------



## eureka1 (Feb 22, 2020)

Scout Evans said:


> B xxxxx with A Cw is fall of 1949.



thanks for your info on CWC serial number year


----------



## streetrod (Mar 3, 2020)

Here's one I recently picked up. Very crusty, I'm not even going to post a pic of the serial number since you won't be able to see it. I had to get it in just the right light to read and it was still difficult! Serial number is A77008. Thinking it had a tank originally since there is a grommet in the front fender for wires to go from a battery to a front light.


----------



## Just Jeff (Mar 25, 2020)

Just snagged this beauty today. Road Master badge. Black out hubs, New Departure front, Morrow rear dated 4th quarter 1945. Tank looks to be added as paint doesn’t match perfectly, and rack I’m unsure on. Rest appears to be original.


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## Krakatoa (Mar 25, 2020)

Nice find. I have a 46 I like very much that has the same paint combo without the blackouts or tank. I bet you will love the way that rides.


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## Just Jeff (Mar 25, 2020)

Nice. When I saw it for sale, I knew I had to have it. It‘s a close enough match to my girls CWC above it. I can finally say I’ve got a matched set of bikes


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## Oilit (Mar 26, 2020)

Just Jeff said:


> Nice. When I saw it for sale, I knew I had to have it. It‘s a close enough match to my girls CWC above it. I can finally say I’ve got a matched set of bikes



And it's possible that the tank came with the bike. I've got at least one bike, though not a CWC, where the paint on the fenders has aged differently than on the frame. These are not like cars, where everything is painted at once. I expect on bikes a lot of the parts were painted separately and then put together. I'm sure they were going for a good match, but there could have been variations in the paint. Even so, as long as it was close enough, good enough. They weren't trying to win a Concours d'Elegance!


----------



## Phrank Vee (Apr 29, 2020)

RMS37 said:


> Hi, I just wanted to check in and let everyone know I have been working on text and graphics for the Cleveland Welding serial number project.  I am getting close to the point where I can upload some of this material, probably by late this week or early next week.
> 
> I have created a chart to document Cleveland Welding serial numbers along with other pertinent information about each of the bicycles listed. I have also prepared text and graphics that divide prewar CWC production into groups based on frame type.
> 
> ...



Hi Phil,

Im very new to this very addicting bike building hobby. I recently purchased a Roadmaster.  I’m intrigued on what is original and what’s not, and what year it is. Would you be able to help me out? Thanks for your time. Stay safe. (Roadmaster H73489 53)


----------



## mrg (Apr 29, 2020)

@Phrank Vee, hate to say but that post you responded to is 12 years old and RMS37 has not been seen here in years ( wish he still contributed ) and he was mostly involved in prewar. good luck with your 53.


----------



## Oilit (Apr 30, 2020)

Phrank Vee said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Im very new to this very addicting bike building hobby. I recently purchased a Roadmaster.  I’m intrigued on what is original and what’s not, and what year it is. Would you be able to help me out? Thanks for your time. Stay safe. (Roadmaster H73489 53)
> 
> ...



Interesting bike. I'm guessing the seat, headlight, frame, fork, kickstand and chainwheel are original, the fenders may have come from a Schwinn. The head badge and sprung fork would have been on a high end bike, but I would have expected chrome rims with them, and I don't recognize the chain guard or rear rack. But it's not bad looking, and if the mechanical parts are clean and lubed it should make a good rider. The "53Cw" mark refers to Cleveland Welding 1953.


----------



## Freqman1 (Apr 30, 2020)

The bike looks like it may have started as a '53 Luxury Liner. '53 was the only year they were green and the only year that badge was used. Here is a pic of my '53 to give you an idea of what it should look like. At this point I would say just ride it as it is because trying to restore to original would be a money losing proposition. V/r Shawn


----------



## Phrank Vee (Apr 30, 2020)

Oilit said:


> Interesting bike. I'm guessing the seat, headlight, frame, fork, kickstand and chainwheel are original, the fenders may have come from a Schwinn. The head badge and sprung fork would have been on a high end bike, but I would have expected chrome rims with them, and I don't recognize the chain guard or rear rack. But it's not bad looking, and if the mechanical parts are clean and lubed it should make a good rider. The "53Cw" mark refers to Cleveland Welding 1953.



Thanks! I’m in agreement with you. The rims were painted white because they were terribly rusted. The rear rack and chain guard also painted. I already have a rear rack and chain guard on the way.  They are in better shape and were not painted over.  I really appreciate the explanations! Have a great day


----------



## Phrank Vee (Apr 30, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> The bike looks like it may have started as a '53 Luxury Liner. '53 was the only year they were green and the only year that badge was used. Here is a pic of my '53 to give you an idea of what it should look like. At this point I would say just ride it as it is because trying to restore to original would be a money losing proposition. V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 1184227
> 
> ...



Thank you! I have been going crazy trying to find out what it is. Are your fenders original? Does the rear rack solid with no holes? Seems pretty rare huh? I really appreciate you passing on this intel. Stay safe and have a great day.


----------



## Freqman1 (Apr 30, 2020)

Phrank Vee said:


> Thank you! I have been going crazy trying to find out what it is. Are your fenders original? Does the rear rack solid with no holes? Seems pretty rare huh? I really appreciate you passing on this intel. Stay safe and have a great day.



My bike is original except for the tires. Rack is standard LL rack-not solid. These bikes are not what I would call rare as I've seen more than a few of these in both boys and girls models. A member just had this one listed on Ebay-complete but a little rough (replaced headlight). http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=264710724836  V/r Shawn


----------



## Phrank Vee (Apr 30, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> My bike is original except for the tires. Rack is standard LL rack-not solid. These bikes are not what I would call rare as I've seen more than a few of these in both boys and girls models. A member just had this one listed on Ebay-complete but a little rough (replaced headlight). http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=264710724836  V/r Shawn



Thanks Man!


----------



## Starnger (Jun 7, 2020)

Hello everyone.
I have noticed that the chart by Phil that people often refer to when trying to identify their CWC bikes is mostly spread through the internet as a low resolution jpeg file. This results to lots of struggling and confusion, especially when people try to read the smallest symbols there like month codes. So i have remade the very same picture into a PDF vector file (infinitely scalable). Feel free to use it and edit it if necessary.


----------



## Oilit (Jun 7, 2020)

Starnger said:


> Hello everyone.
> I have noticed that the chart by Phil that people often refer to when trying to identify their CWC bikes is mostly spread through the internet as a low resolution jpeg file. This results to lots of struggling and confusion, especially when people try to read the smallest symbols there like month codes. So i have remade the very same picture into a PDF vector file (infinitely scalable). Feel free to use it and edit it if necessary.



@Starnger, thanks for your effort, this version is much easier to read, it will enlarge as much as you need. But I did notice one small error. Are you a George Michael fan?


----------



## Starnger (Jun 7, 2020)

Oilit said:


> @Starnger, thanks for your effort, this version is much easier to read, it will enlarge as much as you need. But I did notice one small error. Are you a George Michael fan?



Wow, you are right. My bad man! I guess i was too tired doing that! Fixed.


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## seavandal (Jul 24, 2020)

Keeping this thread going! I have two CWC bikes.
The first is my college bike that I rescued from B&E Salvage in Sacramento in the early 80's. It started as a CWC Wards Hawthorne frame and I hodge podged all the parts from the salvage yard bike area to create it. The hub is a Bendix automatic with every other tooth filed to fit the skiptooth chain.  It still hasn't been stolen! Serial # E14915 with Cw.
The second bike is new to me as is (like a week ago). Looks to have newer powder coated paint. It has the correct parts on it for the most part. I cleaned this one up with WD 40 and some 0000 steel wool, oiled the bearings, filled up the tires and rode it. Functional! This one is Serial #C13676. There is no Cw mark. I think this is the first month and year for adding the Cw mark. This must have been one of the last ones to not get the Cw.
Chris
Glendale CA


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## Oilit (Jul 25, 2020)

Looks like they removed the rear fender stays for powder coating, and then couldn't remember how they went back on. Are you going to leave it like that? In any case, nice bikes!


----------



## TieDye (Jul 25, 2020)

seavandal said:


> Keeping this thread going! I have two CWC bikes.
> The first is my college bike that I rescued from B&E Salvage in Sacramento in the early 80's. It started as a CWC Wards Hawthorne frame and I hodge podged all the parts from the salvage yard bike area to create it. The hub is a Bendix automatic with every other tooth filed to fit the skiptooth chain.  It still hasn't been stolen! Serial # E14915 with Cw.
> The second bike is new to me as is (like a week ago). Looks to have newer powder coated paint. It has the correct parts on it for the most part. I cleaned this one up with WD 40 and some 0000 steel wool, oiled the bearings, filled up the tires and rode it. Functional! This one is Serial #C13676. There is no Cw mark. I think this is the first month and year for adding the Cw mark. This must have been one of the last ones to not get the Cw.
> Chris
> ...



1948 on the first one, and the second one is 1947, just before they started putting the Cw on it.  They are both from the Cw series though.


----------



## kram (Jul 28, 2020)

Hiya all! [not pronounced y'all, but we're all a lil "country" at heart ☀️]
I invite ALL COMMENTS. I'm unschooled in CWC features timelines. 
On the weekend I picked up what HAD BEEN an estate sale garage-wall-hanger in Prescott Arizona [where I'm living these past five years]. 
I bought it from the [likely] second owner who kept it locally and out of the elements, for about three years. He got it at the estate sale. 
Regarding its serial number, a couple spots on the crank housing/bb have clearly taken some minor impact, obliterating the final digit of the SN and ??? possibly where a CW or ACW mark might have been. 
Later on at home I can try cleaning up the SN area. I'll post another photo if there's an appreciable improvement. 
Rear dropouts are horizontal and badge is brass, so the knowledgeable among you [unlike myself] might get all the answers from just that. 
And METEOR 3N pedals, but that proves nothing. 
I'm curious about the plainness of the carrier/rack. Probably implies a no-frills model. 
Also the rims are nicely painted and pinstriped. I imagine that could be an aftermarket treatment?? Fender paint highlights appear carried over throughout many years, and the chain guard style could be, also. 
The incorrect, later Delta [attached errantly, imo] is clear. 
More and better photos can easily be provided. 
Thanxmuch


----------



## kram (Jul 28, 2020)

Better photo of cleaned your Serial Number ... I'm seeing what really looks like a "C" with a "w" inside of it.


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## Archie Sturmer (Jul 28, 2020)

Looks like a 1949; so it is a 1940’s bike after all.


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## kram (Jul 28, 2020)

That's sure what it's looking like at this point, Archie. I'll probably poke through earlier photos/posts in this helpful and informative thread, to check some more comps, like at their dropouts, in particular I suppose.
I'm still toying with the idea of adding a tank to it ...


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## Adi (Jul 29, 2020)

I was wondering if you could give me info about this bike, year, symbols, (swastika?) and approximate value.


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## kram (Jul 29, 2020)

I'll state obvious ... 1949 just like my blue ladies Hawthorne, above [blue plain jane].
Tampered with, as in fenders are aftermarket or from some other bike; adjusting bolts at dropouts are missing. Missing or incorrect head badge. 
And to me this all suggests likely repaint. 
I think I over-paid a bit on my blue ladies [above, at $140] but my uneducated guess for value, here, is pretty much EQUAL to my Blue Plain Jane.


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## kram (Jul 29, 2020)

Swastika?? I missed it ...


----------



## kram (Jul 29, 2020)

Maybe it's worth less than my Blue Plain Jane, based on the above mentioned stuff and not having original tires. Jane's got Wards Riverside Mate with minimal drying; still rideable. 
Sorry to ramble on here ... And, again, I'm no expert. Just offering mho's ☀️


----------



## Archie Sturmer (Jul 29, 2020)

Many folks are into the original paint and parts (collection) thing, especially with a more commonly found item. 
Others value the older frames, parts and accessories, regardless the expense of restoration repaint avoided on essentially a beach cruiser.


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## Adi (Jul 29, 2020)

kram said:


> Swastika?? I missed it ...



It looks like one to me.


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## kram (Jul 29, 2020)

Oh down there. I only looked for it elsewhere, in more obvious places.


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## Archie Sturmer (Jul 29, 2020)

kram said:


> I'm still toying with the idea of adding a tank to it ...



CWC tanks might look similar to Snyder, Rollfast or Excelsior-built Hawthorne tanks, so be careful with your selection.


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## TieDye (Jul 29, 2020)

kram said:


> Better photo of cleaned your Serial Number ... I'm seeing what really looks like a "C" with a "w" inside of it.
> 
> View attachment 1237586



You have a 1949 there.  Cw series, H serial number. 


kram said:


> Better photo of cleaned your Serial Number ... I'm seeing what really looks like a "C" with a "w" inside of it.
> 
> View attachment 1237586



Clearly a 1949 from the Cw series, which is in the blue area on the serial number chart I posted higher up in this thread.  Nice bike. My 1951 all original CWC Fleet Wing has the same rear rack.


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## kram (Jul 29, 2020)

Thanks Tiedye
Wow! what a beautiful bike!
Rack' a what sold me on the thing. 
Now I've decided to part with it already ... It's in Classifieds ...


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## TieDye (Jul 29, 2020)

kram said:


> Thanks Tiedye
> Wow! what a beautiful bike!
> Rack' a what sold me on the thing.
> Now I've decided to part with it already ... It's in Classifieds ...



Thank you. You should at least ride her. They ride nice.


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## kram (Jul 29, 2020)

What about Adi's S/N area symbols in the bb? See post 542.


----------



## TieDye (Jul 29, 2020)

kram said:


> What about Adi's S/N area symbols in the bb? See post 542.View attachment 1238200



Kinda looks like someone who owned it added those odd stuff markings. Maybe a "German influenced" cryptic security marks?  Since it's been repainted, it's likely they did some of their own customization.  That bike is an H in the Cw series. Easy to figure out on the chart.


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## cbustapeck (Oct 27, 2020)

I just acquired a Roadmaster Luxury Liner. The earliest ads that I have seen for one are November or December of 1947, yet the serial number seems to suggest second quarter of 1947. Edit: A bit of time with the Dremel revealed that there is a "CW" after the number. More photographs here.


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## mrg (Oct 27, 2020)

There can be a gap between the time the frame was stamped and when the bike was built.


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## cbustapeck (Oct 28, 2020)

mrg said:


> There can be a gap between the time the frame was stamped and when the bike was built.



I spent some quality time with the Dremel last night and saw that there was, in fact, a "CW" at the end. Thank you!


----------



## OSCAR...N... (Oct 28, 2020)

cbustapeck said:


> I spent some quality time with the Dremel last night and saw that there was, in fact, a "CW" at the end. Thank you!



Pics.?


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## cbustapeck (Oct 28, 2020)

Felixnegron said:


> Pics.?



Oops.


----------



## TieDye (Oct 28, 2020)

cbustapeck said:


> Oops.
> 
> View attachment 1292393



Made in 1947 from the Cw series.


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## Oilit (Dec 5, 2020)

I have a question for the experts. I picked up a 1957 Pleasure Liner that came with a 1958 parts bike. The 1957 has the serial number on the bottom bracket, like all '57's, but the 1958 also has a serial number on the bottom bracket, a "J" and a 5 digit number, where most '58's I've seen have an "H" and a 6 digit number on the left drop-out. But I've seen other late '50's AMF bikes with the serial under the bottom bracket. @Oldude13 posted one halfway down page 23 of this thread, and the head badge on his looks like it could be a 1959. The head badge on the 1958 pleasure liner matches the head badge on my 1958 Flying Falcon, which is why I'm calling it a 1958, but the serial number on the F.F. is "H" followed by a 6 digit number on the left drop-out. @Scout Evans posted that the serial number on the Pleasure Liner may be early 1959, which would match Phil Marshall's list, but I think 1958 was the last year for the Pleasure Liner or Luxury Liner, at least going by the catalog. The Luxury Liner was replaced by the Sky King in 1959, which had a cantilever frame. There happens to be a Sky King and Sky Queen for sale on Facebook Marketplace near Chicago, and I messaged the seller asking about the year and he sent me a picture of the serial number, which is the first cantilever frame I've seen with the serial number on the bottom bracket. So now I'm thinking AMF was using two different serial number systems at the same time in the late '50's, which leads to the question: could AMF have still been building some bikes in Cleveland as late as 1959? I've been trying to find a way to tell whether an AMF bike was built in Cleveland or Little Rock and so far I haven't nailed it down, although seeing more bikes might help. So does anybody else have any ideas? I know these middleweight AMF's have no interest for a lot of people, but this question is like a bug in my brain, it keeps gnawing at me. 
The page with @Oldude13's bike:








						Cleveland Welding S/N Project...See Page 58 Post 576 for chart | Classic Balloon Tire Bicycles 1933-1965
					

Again another CWC serial number decipher that I'm guessing at. Owner said this was a 1936.   Serial is J95284 ...no suffix stamping.   I've got the same exact bike/frame in a western flyer, cept my serial numbers don't even make sense. Regardless, it's based on a frame modification in 1938...




					thecabe.com
				



The Pleasure Liners are here:








						1957 Roadmaster Pleasure Liner | Middleweight Bicycles
					

I like these '50's AMFs, sometimes against my better judgement. I think 1958 was the last year for either the Pleasure Liner or the Luxury Liner, so this was getting towards the end. 1957 was the last year for the kickstand plate, I've seen it on some of the early cantilever frames, but it...




					thecabe.com
				



@Mitt25 posted pictures of a nice '58 Luxury Liner at the end of this thread, with a good shot of the serial number on the left drop-out:








						1950s AMF Roadmaster Luxury Liner Help | Middleweight Bicycles
					

Hey Guys, a friend of mine had his 1950s AMF Roarmaster Luxury Liner restored locally. It seems like guy didn't really know what he was doing... The question that I'm wondering is, is it worth finishing properly? He has the original rack and seat, but it needs the tank, light, pedals, head...




					thecabe.com
				



I've posted pictures of my '58 Flying Falcon in this thread. I don't have a good picture of the serial number, but it's the same pattern as Mitt25's Luxury Liner and the head badge is the same as the Pleasure Liner, except more faded:








						Amf Roadmaster flying falcon | Middleweight Bicycles
					

Can anybody give me some info on this bike. Real barn find. I believe it's a mid 50s bike but I can't find any good info on it.




					thecabe.com
				



And this is a link to the Facebook ad for the Sky King, along with a picture of the bike and the serial number that the seller sent me:








						1959 Roadmaster sky king and sky queen vintage bicycles antique old school
					

26” sky king and 26” sky king complete bicycles




					www.facebook.com
				



And if you have a bike that may shed some light on this, then by all means let's see some pictures!


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## szathmarig (Dec 6, 2020)

Christmas Roadmaster, I also have a matching girls version


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## Oilit (Dec 6, 2020)

I made a mistake. I picked up a 1959 catalog a few years ago and going off memory, I couldn't remember any straight-bar frames, but when I went back and looked, there's one straight-bar bike still being produced, the Royal Eagle. This must have been what @Oldude13's bike was originally. To my eyes it looks like a re-named Luxury Liner, but I've never seen one complete. It does mention that it has middleweight tires, maybe the 1958 Luxury Liner still had balloon tires. And there's no Pleasure Liner, but it does show the Sky King.


----------



## Oilit (Dec 6, 2020)

szathmarig said:


> Christmas Roadmaster, I also have a matching girls versionView attachment 1312841
> 
> View attachment 1312842
> 
> ...



Beautiful condition! Is that 1954?


----------



## szathmarig (Dec 6, 2020)

Yes 1954


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## szathmarig (Dec 6, 2020)

Original paint Early Postwar CWC Hawthorne with Airliner light, and horn.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 14, 2020)

szathmarig said:


> Christmas Roadmaster, I also have a matching girls versionView attachment 1312841
> 
> View attachment 1312842
> 
> ...



Just curious what makes this a “Christmas” Roadmaster? I’ve seen people incorrectly refer to the ‘53 green bikes as Christmas bikes but the fact is the color was offered the entire year. For ‘54 did they just offer this color at the end of the year? V/r Shawn


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## szathmarig (Dec 14, 2020)

I just called it Christmas because of the color. I don't know when it offered. All I know it is stamped 54.


----------



## Oilit (Dec 14, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> Just curious what makes this a “Christmas” Roadmaster? I’ve seen people incorrectly refer to the ‘53 green bikes as Christmas bikes but the fact is the color was offered the entire year. For ‘54 did they just offer this color at the end of the year? V/r Shawn



Was that the whole 1953 range or just the Luxury Liner?


----------



## Freqman1 (Dec 14, 2020)

Oilit said:


> Was that the whole 1953 range or just the Luxury Liner?



I thought it was pretty much across the board. Literature is scattered on the postwar CWC stuff. Maybe we’ll get a companion to the prewar book at some point. V/r Shawn


----------



## szathmarig (Jan 23, 2021)

Western Flyer badged.


----------



## John Gailey (Jan 23, 2021)

Diggin' that buddy seat.


----------



## szathmarig (Feb 9, 2021)

I sold the pal seat.


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## Hukah (Feb 18, 2021)

I've got what seems like what might be a mystery.
The only stamping I can see is "J20". Is that possible?
The arced, tapering dbl top bars and "J" (according to the posted manual) indicates '46.
This is a Whizzer edition but from what I've read Whizzer started with Roadmaster in '47, calling it a 226WH.

What's the consensus on this one?

Thanks group


----------



## Oilit (Feb 19, 2021)

Hukah said:


> I've got what seems like what might be a mystery.
> The only stamping I can see is "J20". Is that possible?
> The arced, tapering dbl top bars and "J" (according to the posted manual) indicates '46.
> This is a Whizzer edition but from what I've read Whizzer started with Roadmaster in '47, calling it a 226WH.
> ...



I think there's more numbers after the "J20" but they're faint and hard to read.


----------



## Hukah (Feb 19, 2021)

Oilit said:


> I think there's more numbers after the "J20" but they're faint and hard to read.



Yeah, I tried to scrape the area, but honestly it doesn't look like there is any more under there.
I'm not convinced that there aren't more, but I am hard pressed to reveal them.
I hesitate to sand more off but I guess I just may have to.


----------



## Oilit (Feb 19, 2021)

Hukah said:


> Yeah, I tried to scrape the area, but honestly it doesn't look like there is any more under there.
> I'm not convinced that there aren't more, but I am hard pressed to reveal them.
> I hesitate to sand more off but I guess I just may have to.



I'm not sure sanding would help. You've got enough to tell the year, that's the part that interests most people. I'm guessing the frame matched the fork before someone painted it.


----------



## Hukah (Feb 19, 2021)

Oilit said:


> I'm not sure sanding would help. You've got enough to tell the year, that's the part that interests most people.



Thanks. I didn't think about it that way (duh me).


----------



## Hukah (Mar 11, 2021)

Am I just tired or is it not possible to edit my post? I swear I can't find the link to edit it.
I wanted to add this to my montage.


----------



## Oilit (Mar 24, 2021)

Here's a 1958 Skyrider that someone converted to a stationary exercise bicycle. I bought it for the wheels, but there's a couple of interesting points about it. First, the headbadge is painted instead of a riveted plate, this is the first time I've seen that. Second, the serial number starts with "H" and is on the bottom bracket. Back in post #458 I said I hadn't seen a 1958 with the serial on the bottom bracket. Well now I have. 
So now it looks like the 1958 and 1959 serials ("H" and "J") can be either on the left drop-out with a letter and a six digit number, or under the bottom bracket with a letter and a five digit number. My best guess is that the two different types of serials were used in Cleveland and Little Rock, and AMF was producing bikes both places during those years. But it's only a guess, if somebody has good evidence otherwise, post it - you won't hurt my feelings.


----------



## TieDye (Mar 24, 2021)

Here's an easier to read version of Phil's chart.  You can even see the months.


----------



## Slick4d4d (Apr 19, 2021)

So based on the crank, compared to other bikes in this thread, and the chart this frame, B14910, is a 1937 (with lots of other parts on it now).


----------



## TieDye (Apr 27, 2021)

Slick4d4d said:


> So based on the crank, compared to other bikes in this thread, and the chart this frame, B14910, is a 1937 (with lots of other parts on it now).
> 
> View attachment 1394679
> 
> ...



That crank should be a dogleg.


----------



## tacochris (May 13, 2021)

Im submitting my "angle-iron-cruiser" for this list.  I believe this to be an original 1945 black-out model CWC as none of the normally plated parts appear to have ever been plated at any point and have a black hue to all of them.  Ive dealt with ALOT of severely rusty bikes and normally there is SOME plating left somewhere but on this one its nowhere, even down to the headtube and bottom bracket cups.
The only thing on this bike that has any plating is the dust cover on the rear Morrow hub and it has held up well for the most part. 

No CW stamp present near the serial number anywhere, D prefix.  Relaxed curvature in the downtube....etc


----------



## CycleTruck211 (May 18, 2021)

I'd love to figure out the brand and model. I think I have this narrowed down to 1940-41. Correct me, if I'm wrong, please. H62767







Fender mounting tab on the fork.




This same arrowhead graphic is on the down tube, but very faded.




Pennant shaped graphics on the rear fender. One says Wake Forest. Another says South Carolina. Can't make out any of the other graphics.




Can that arrow head be pinned to a particular brand?


----------



## cyclingday (May 18, 2021)

1938 serial number on this one.






There was enough of the original paint graphics left to tell, that this one was a model 2226 Supreme.


----------



## CycleTruck211 (May 19, 2021)

CycleTruck211 said:


> I'd love to figure out the brand and model. I think I have this narrowed down to 1940-41. Correct me, if I'm wrong, please. H62767
> View attachment 1414084
> View attachment 1414085
> 
> ...




Two questions:


 Am I correct about this being 40-41?
Can that Arrow head graphic be tied to a particular brand bike? I'm unable to find it on a Roadmaster.
Thanks in advance!


----------



## Freqman1 (May 19, 2021)

CycleTruck211 said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 
> Am I correct about this being 40-41?
> ...



The bike appears to be a '41 bent tank model. The bike has been repainted and that arrow graphic is a decal applied after the repaint-not factory. V/r Shawn


----------



## CycleTruck211 (May 19, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> The bike appears to be a '41 bent tank model. The bike has been repainted and that arrow graphic is a decal applied after the repaint-not factory. V/r Shawn




Well, no wonder I couldn't find it on any photos!  I spent hours searching!

I knew the rims were painted, but I didn't know about the bike. It's still not had a complete bath. OK, this is a great candidate for a kustom paint job.

Thank you!


----------



## bytor (May 20, 2021)

I thought I would add this model to your database along with getting some information on what I inherited. The bike looks to be postwar with the B53649 CW serial number putting it somewhere around 1948 according to the chart. This model has the horn in the tank and the dual springer fork. Hope this helps fill in some gaps. Any ideas on what model this might be?


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## stezell (May 26, 2021)

Here's the 36 I picked up and the serial number. I forgot to add it to the list. 

Sean


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## OSCAR...N... (May 26, 2021)

stezell said:


> Here's the 36 I picked up and the serial number. I forgot to add it to the list.
> 
> Sean
> View attachment 1418934
> ...



A=(1936).... G.luck with your bike..


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## RunGrampyRun (May 29, 2021)

RMS37 said:


> Hi, I just wanted to check in and let everyone know I have been working on text and graphics for the Cleveland Welding serial number project.  I am getting close to the point where I can upload some of this material, probably by late this week or early next week.
> 
> I have created a chart to document Cleveland Welding serial numbers along with other pertinent information about each of the bicycles listed. I have also prepared text and graphics that divide prewar CWC production into groups based on frame type.
> 
> ...



Phil, are you still working on this project.  If so I’ll send pix on what I presume to be a CW frame.


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## Freqman1 (May 29, 2021)

RunGrampyRun said:


> Phil, are you still working on this project.  If so I’ll send pix on what I presume to be a CW frame.



Unfortunately Phil has not been on here in years. V/r Shawn


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## RunGrampyRun (May 29, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Unfortunately Phil has not been on here in years. V/r Shat


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## RunGrampyRun (May 29, 2021)

Thanks, I have SN J09983 ACw.  Here are pix. Can anyone help ID?
thanks


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## RunGrampyRun (May 29, 2021)

Felixnegron said:


> A=(1936).... G.luck with your bike..



is that an ominous good luck


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## OSCAR...N... (May 29, 2021)

RunGrampyRun said:


> is that an ominous good luck



G.luck =good luck...   &.

GLWS =Good luck with your Sale.!!!


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## Oilit (May 29, 2021)

RunGrampyRun said:


> Thanks, I have SN J09983 ACw.  Here are pix. Can anyone help ID?
> thanks
> 
> View attachment 1420322
> ...



According to Phil's list, that one dates to the end of 1951. In 1952 they started using the "52Cw" mark.
With the spring fork, it was probably one of the high-end models, maybe a Super, but a lot of the extra parts have been stripped off, which was pretty common.


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## Archie Sturmer (Jun 5, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> Can someone please make a chart or send me the info so I can make one for the CWC serial #'s?
> If I've overlooked the info in this thread or somewhere else, please let me know where?
> thanks!
> Scott A.



Same thing here, times x 2, now that there are twice as many pages(!).
I have politely requested that the moderators append the thread title to also read, “(*see* *post* # *576*)” to go directly to the chart, and bypassing much of the clutter.


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## rustjunkie (Jun 5, 2021)

Archie Sturmer said:


> Same thing here, times x 2, now that there are twice as many pages(!).
> I have politely requested that the moderators append the thread title to also read, “(*see* *post* # *576*)” to go directly to the chart, and bypassing much of the clutter.


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## TieDye (Jun 9, 2021)

bytor said:


> I thought I would add this model to your database along with getting some information on what I inherited. The bike looks to be postwar with the B53649 CW serial number putting it somewhere around 1948 according to the chart. This model has the horn in the tank and the dual springer fork. Hope this helps fill in some gaps. Any ideas on what model this might be?
> 
> View attachment 1415449
> 
> ...



1947.


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## TieDye (Jun 9, 2021)

RunGrampyRun said:


> Thanks, I have SN J09983 ACw.  Here are pix. Can anyone help ID?
> thanks
> 
> View attachment 1420322
> ...



1951.


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## GRANDPAS_RIDE (Jul 3, 2021)

Here are some photos of my assembled Wards Hawthorne SN D96872. There is another mark on the crank housing.  It looks like Roman numeral II (2) or the number 11.  If this info and the photos help in determining the year, I would be very interested in knowing that information.  

if it is a factor, my grandfather owned the bike when he lived in Northern Alberta in the 1940’s.

Thanks for the help.
GRANDPAS_RIDE


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## Archie Sturmer (Jul 3, 2021)

GRANDPAS_RIDE said:


> Here are some photos of my assembled Wards Hawthorne SN *D96872*.
> If this info and the photos help in determining the year, I would be very interested in knowing that information. If it is a factor, my grandfather owned the bike when he lived in Northern Alberta in the 1940’s.
> Thanks for the help.
> GRANDPAS_RIDE



Your grandpa’s nice Hawthorne looks like a *1939*-D; (the chart _hints_ at about April for the higher 90,000 serial number).

The other marks look like some kind of chiseling to break the bike out of the ice and snow, eh?


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## MYMURRAYS (Aug 30, 2021)

Here is my 1954 Roadmaster Luxury Liner serial # B50187. Original except the tires.


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## ozzie (Sep 5, 2021)

My ‘53 Roadmaster Pleasure Liner.  I made some changes to make it a great rider and stored the original parts I removed for the next owner. I will advise the SN tomorrow.


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## ian (Oct 10, 2021)

Just got this CWC Roadmaster frame. It has a replacement chainring and seat. Looks like late 1950 according to the chart on page 58.


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## Shelbygt (Nov 1, 2021)

Glad folks have taken the time to create and contribute. F40090 ACW breaks down as manufactured between December 1950 to February 1951, right before the AMF buyout in April 1951.

Just curious..below my serial is    Diamond 32     Anyone else have something like this?


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## Shelbygt (Nov 2, 2021)

Boris said:


> Phil (RMS37) was good enough to do the research and put this chart together for us. Let's return the favor and use *THIS VERSION* of it to acknowledge that fact.
> 
> View attachment 897582



This was a huge effort. Many thanks to Phil for putting this together!


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## Oilit (Nov 2, 2021)

ozzie said:


> My ‘53 Roadmaster Pleasure Liner.  I made some changes to make it a great rider and stored the original parts I removed for the next owner. I will advise the SN tomorrow.
> View attachment 1472813
> 
> View attachment 1472814
> ...



I recognize the Sturmey-Archer front brake, but what's that chain ring? Beautiful bike!


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## ozzie (Nov 2, 2021)

Oilit said:


> I recognize the Sturmey-Archer front brake, but what's that chain ring? Beautiful bike!








Thanks. I removed the 52t Wald sprocket you asked about and replaced it with one from a repop luxury liner as it looks the same as the original skiptooth one.


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## ozzie (Nov 2, 2021)

ozzie said:


> View attachment 1506292
> 
> 
> Thanks. I removed the 52t Wald sprocket you asked about and replaced it with one from a repop luxury liner as it looks the same as the original skiptooth one.



Bars were replaced too with nickel plated McCaskey tillers.


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## Oilit (Nov 2, 2021)

ozzie said:


> View attachment 1506292
> 
> 
> Thanks. I removed the 52t Wald sprocket you asked about and replaced it with one from a repop luxury liner as it looks the same as the original skiptooth one.



The Wald looked fine, but it does look better with the chain guard. But the star is that paint, there can't be many left that clean!


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## ozzie (Nov 2, 2021)

Oilit said:


> The Wald looked fine, but it does look better with the chain guard. But the star is that paint, there can't be many left that clean!



The Wald looked cool but was not so round.  Yes, the paint is excellent. I polished it a little a while back and it looked even better. Many people who have seen it can’t believe its almost 70 years old. The undersides of the fenders and interior of the tank look new too.


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## Michael.1 (Nov 7, 2021)

RMS37 said:


> As I was replying to the Hawthorne question, a number of posts came in. I would love to see a CWC serial number data base built. I have been working on one for myself for some time and plan to put it up on a CWC website I am working on.  I suggest that the best way to build a data base is to include several pictures of a bike, capturing the frame details much like Akikuro did and to photograph the serial number.
> 
> A photograph tells the story much better than just noting the number especially in the case of over-stampings and non alpha-numeric symbols
> 
> ...



I have been trying to get information about this bicycle


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## Freqman1 (Nov 7, 2021)

Michael.1 said:


> I have been trying to get information about this bicycle
> 
> View attachment 1508992
> 
> ...



What specifically are you looking to find out? V/r Shawn


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## Michael.1 (Nov 7, 2021)

I’m looking for a year make and model.
I believe it is late 40’s CWC but is it a Roadmaster?


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## Freqman1 (Nov 7, 2021)

Late 1948. Someone changed the chain ring out. Can you see any ‘ghosting’ of a badge? That may offer a clue. V/r Shawn


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## Michael.1 (Nov 7, 2021)

No sign of a badge


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## Freqman1 (Nov 8, 2021)

Post a couple of nice, clear shots of the head tube. V/r Shawn


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## TieDye (Nov 16, 2021)

RunGrampyRun said:


> Thanks, I have SN J09983 ACw.  Here are pix. Can anyone help ID?
> thanks
> 
> View attachment 1420322
> ...



J of the ACw series is from 1951.


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## TieDye (Nov 16, 2021)

Shelbygt said:


> Glad folks have taken the time to create and contribute. F40090 ACW breaks down as manufactured between December 1950 to February 1951, right before the AMF buyout in April 1951.
> 
> Just curious..below my serial is    Diamond 32     Anyone else have something like this?
> 
> ...



January 1951.


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## TieDye (Nov 16, 2021)

Michael.1 said:


> I have been trying to get information about this bicycle
> 
> View attachment 1508992
> 
> ...



1948.


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## mruiz (Dec 8, 2021)

I got this girls CWC, serial # G36624. Can I get a date of built? Have the tank, rear rack and wheel.


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## mruiz (Dec 11, 2021)

TieDye said:


> 1948.



are these bikes considered Middle weighs, because tires are 175?


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## GTs58 (Dec 11, 2021)

mruiz said:


> are these bikes considered Middle weighs, because tires are 175?




No middleweights in the 40's. A standard rim that took the 2.125 tires will take a smaller and larger width tire.


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## rustndust (Feb 28, 2022)

I picked this up a few months ago, no headbadge, lots of mismatched parts but no real numbers either?
I posted some pics in another thread a while back and the general opinion seemed to be that its an early CWC Western Flyer.
After tearing the bike down for some much needed bearing service, I can see the original paint is a dark plum or burgundy color.
The forks seem to match the rest of the frame color wise, as do the fenders.
Previous Post
Here's a shot of the BB shell, the only numbers are crude punch marks. The paint on the frame is pretty heavy but not on the bottom. There's signs of it having a center kickstand at some point, along with the drop stand.
There's a few chips in the repaint that reveal bare metal, so my guess is that this was stripped bare before the repaint so I don't get the impression that the numbers are painted over.

What are the chances it never got stamped with a serial number?
Or maybe its not a CW frame?


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## Jeff54 (Feb 28, 2022)

rustndust said:


> I picked this up a few months ago, no headbadge, lots of mismatched parts but no real numbers either?
> I posted some pics in another thread a while back and the general opinion seemed to be that its an early CWC Western Flyer.
> After tearing the bike down for some much needed bearing service, I can see the original paint is a dark plum or burgundy color.
> The forks seem to match the rest of the frame color wise, as do the fenders.
> ...



How many "Forks did it come with? But seriously, all that looks like is a Homie's punch marks. I speculate the serial numbers if any, were light so, sanded off and Homie punched in their own 001 or 100 to mark it.

I have a house painted and no original color 40/41 CWC and the few numbers and letter are absolute nonsense. The only reason I know it's CWC: B/C of the frame, Western Flyer badge, rims fenders etc. I.E. If you can match maker's frame and approximate period. , Unless you can find 'Homie' U done. BTW Burgendy was apparently, of CWC's most popular colors.


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## rustndust (Mar 1, 2022)

Jeff54 said:


> How many "Forks did it come with? But seriously, all that looks like is a Homie's punch marks. I speculate the serial numbers if any, were light so, sanded off and Homie punched in their own 001 or 100 to mark it.
> 
> I have a house painted and no original color 40/41 CWC and the few numbers and letter are absolute nonsense. The only reason I know it's CWC: B/C of the frame, Western Flyer badge, rims fenders etc. I.E. If you can match maker's frame and approximate period. , Unless you can find 'Homie' U done. BTW Burgendy was apparently, of CWC's most popular colors.



It came with two forks, those that were on it and another pair in a bucket of spare parts which I believe are from a Colson.
The bike had a Colson chain guard on it, an Elgin rear rack, and pair of newer Schwinn handle bars. 
The wheels, frame, fork and fenders all showed the same burgundy paint, but a Roadmaster badge in the same bucket had blue housepaint on it, as did the back of the Colson cg. The wheels were painted to match with white stripes, and there was also a pair of faded WF badges in the bucket too, both in nice shape.

Does anything about this frame show it to be a particular year? The closest I've found to mine in all details so far has been a 1936 WF ad and a bike belonging to 1936PEDALER in my other post.


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## oldfart36 (Mar 5, 2022)

*Need some help guys*
41 CWC Roadmaster!
Question! how tight should the "Lower Main Support Legs Be" ?
Also, it appears the front fender floats with the front end. No mounting hole in fender, just a depression for what looks like some type of snubber. Not a big CWC guy, so I could really use the help.


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## Kickstand3 (Mar 5, 2022)

oldfart36 said:


> *Need some help guys*
> 41 CWC Roadmaster!
> Question! how tight should the "Lower Main Support Legs Be" ?
> Also, it appears the front fender floats with the front end. No mounting hole in fender, just a depression for what looks like some type of snubber. Not a big CWC guy, so I could really use the help.
> ...



It takes a rubber bumper mounted on the fork 
Could probably make one , or find something that keeps your fender from rattling


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## Archie Sturmer (Mar 5, 2022)

oldfart36 said:


> *Need some help guys*
> 41 CWC Roadmaster Question! how tight should the "Lower Main Support Legs Be" ?
> Not a big CWC guy, so I could really use the help.



I believe one would just tighten all the way to the spring ends, but make sure both sides are even (for better balance of the bike!).
No jam nut is used.
The bottom of the truss rods may be slotted where they are fastened to the axle; so the rods may be adjusted to center the slotted holes to where the axle best fits on the fork ends.
An improved version would later (1950) have bolt holes at both ends of lower truss rods.
On the older version (1938-40 Uber patent), the lower truss rods really don’t support the short horizontal struts beneath the springs; (more like the struts supporting the rods, which serve to keep the springs centered?).


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## oldfart36 (Mar 6, 2022)

Kickstand3 said:


> It takes a rubber bumper mounted on the fork
> Could probably make one , or find something that keeps your fender from rattling





Archie Sturmer said:


> I believe one would just tighten all the way to the spring ends, but make sure both sides are even (for better balance of the bike!).
> No jam nut is used.
> The bottom of the truss rods may be slotted where they are fastened to the axle; so the rods may be adjusted to center the slotted holes to where the axle best fits on the fork ends.
> An improved version would later (1950) have bolt holes at both ends of lower truss rods.
> On the older version (1938-40 Uber patent), the lower truss rods really don’t support the short horizontal struts beneath the springs; (more like the struts supporting the rods, which serve to keep the springs centered?).




Thanks guys. I noticed what is left of the rubber snubber. I guess what concerns me is, the lower portion of the front end, with fender and wheel removed seems "sloppy" (lack of a better term) as far as movement. Is this normal?


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## Kickstand3 (Mar 6, 2022)

oldfart36 said:


> Thanks guys. I noticed what is left of the rubber snubber. I guess what concerns me is, the lower portion of the front end, with fender and wheel removed seems "sloppy" (lack of a better term) as far as movement. Is this normal?



Here you go Sir . Nice project


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## dogdart (Mar 6, 2022)

oldfart36 said:


> Thanks guys. I noticed what is left of the rubber snubber. I guess what concerns me is, the lower portion of the front end, with fender and wheel removed seems "sloppy" (lack of a better term) as far as movement. Is this normal?



Sloppy is pretty normal,  especially on rebound.  I've seen people add washers as spacers under  the spring to take.up some slop


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## Archie Sturmer (Mar 6, 2022)

Slop was inherent in the early design, which relied on the axle to ensure that the forks did not move independently; i.e., left pivoting forward and right pivoting back, creating an un-commanded right turn,and vice-versa. 

The later patent solved the problem by forging the two forks in one piece.


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## oldfart36 (Mar 7, 2022)

dogdart said:


> Sloppy is pretty normal,  especially on rebound.  I've seen people add washers as spacers under  the spring to take.up some slop





Archie Sturmer said:


> Slop was inherent in the early design, which relied on the axle to ensure that the forks did not move independently; i.e., left pivoting forward and right pivoting back, creating an un-commanded right turn,and vice-versa.
> 
> The later patent solved the problem by forging the two forks in one piece.




Thanks guys, you hit the nail on the Head!!!!!!


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## cyclingday (Mar 13, 2022)

Here’s a follow up from post#581,
Serial number on frame in as found condition.



1938 CWC Roadmaster Supreme,
Model 2226 after restoration.






Serial number after repaint.



A rough guesstimate, puts this one at the tail end of the “Y” frame type production.
Assuming that no “Y” frame types were produced in 1939?


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## skamatt23 (Apr 6, 2022)

Very cool! Having a G on my serial means this is a 1957 when I thought it was a 1958 based on the features. Sure it could have been a late order in 57 but I have no idea if my serial is late since I don't know total production. Cool!


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## Gully (Apr 30, 2022)

The chart is two possible year ranges on this one.  No badge and I'm suspecting a military bike.  Black out hubs with olive green paint remnants on rims and frame.  Original color inside rims is red as well as frame.  No tabs on the frame for a drop stand.


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## mrg (Apr 30, 2022)

Numbers + pictures of frame will usually clear it up.


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## Gully (Apr 30, 2022)




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## mrg (Apr 30, 2022)

1946  3 gill, no rear stand wings, could have been badged a Roadmaster with that sprocket but in those yrs who knows with shortages.


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## BrianInPA (May 28, 2022)

Picked this one up today, need some serial number help please.  H94338


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## mrg (May 28, 2022)

Mid to late 40's to early 50's depending if there letters over to the the side of the  #'s ( Cw or ACw) that will tell exact year but I'm wondering more about the Snyder springer that is very strangely put together?


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## BrianInPA (May 29, 2022)

mrg said:


> Mid to late 40's to early 50's depending if there letters over to the the side of the  #'s ( Cw or ACw) that will tell exact year but I'm wondering more about the Snyder springer that is very strangely put together?



Is that springer an aftermarket thing then?


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## Oilit (May 30, 2022)

BrianInPA said:


> Is that springer an aftermarket thing then?



Snyder was another bike manufacturer. The springer isn't original to the bike, CWC had their own springer fork of a different design. Probably something happened to the original fork and someone used whatever was at hand to get the bike rolling again.


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## Oilit (May 30, 2022)

skamatt23 said:


> View attachment 1602301
> Very cool! Having a G on my serial means this is a 1957 when I thought it was a 1958 based on the features. Sure it could have been a late order in 57 but I have no idea if my serial is late since I don't know total production. Cool!



'57 sounds right. I think in 1958 they went to chrome fenders and a front rack instead of truss rods, with a ball light mounted on the handlebars. The head badge changed as well. Yours is in nice shape!


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## BrianInPA (May 30, 2022)

Oilit said:


> Snyder was another bike manufacturer. The springer isn't original to the bike, CWC had their own springer fork of a different design. Probably something happened to the original fork and someone used whatever was at hand to get the bike rolling again.



Ok cool!  I really like the look of it!


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## tacochris (Aug 3, 2022)

Adding my oldest owned bike to the list.  Ive had this bike since my son was born and he’s 10 at this point.  
According to the chart its a CW series 48 model.  I got it from the second owner right after he got it from the first owner.  It came from the original owner like this and originally came with a Fleet Wing badge as you can see by the silhouette on the headtube.
Ive finally collected all the parts to return it to stock finally since that what it deserves.  
It will finally no longer be a fake board tracker.  Lol


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## Gully (Aug 3, 2022)

tacochris said:


> Adding my oldest owned bike to the list.  Ive had this bike since my son was born and he’s 10 at this point.
> According to the chart its a CW series 48 model.  I got it from the second owner right after he got it from the first owner.  It came from the original owner like this and originally came with a Fleet Wing badge as you can see by the silhouette on the headtube.
> Ive finally collected all the parts to return it to stock finally since that what it deserves.
> It will finally no longer be a fake board tracker.  Lol
> ...



Looks like it was a good run!  Great photo!


----------



## tacochris (Aug 3, 2022)

Gully said:


> Looks like it was a good run!  Great photo!



Yessir!  I had fun with it for many years as a board tracker in the picture below but ive grown out of that stuff and ide like to give it the respect it deserves and put it back factory now.


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## Gully (Aug 4, 2022)

tacochris said:


> Yessir!  I had fun with it for many years as a board tracker in the picture below but ive grown out of that stuff and ide like to give it the respect it deserves and put it back factory now.
> 
> View attachment 1674386



There is something about bringing a bike back to factory built and riding it the way it was in the day.


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## tacochris (Aug 4, 2022)

Gully said:


> There is something about bringing a bike back to factory built and riding it the way it was in the day.



Exactly.  I built this bike many years ago and really didnt think like I do now.  Now days im more into stock and complete so it will be nice to see its second life as it was intended.


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## ozzie (Aug 4, 2022)

tacochris said:


> Exactly.  I built this bike many years ago and really didnt think like I do now.  Now days im more into stock and complete so it will be nice to see its second life as it was intended.



its a sweet ride either way.


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## BrianInPA (Aug 26, 2022)

Picked this Ridewell Woodwell badged CWC up today on Marketplace for cheap, looks like it will really clean up nice.  Serial# J68951 and small W inside C.  Would that be a '49?


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## Beads (Sep 18, 2022)

Vintage Cruiser: 1950 Cleveland Welding Roadmaster - bicycles - by...
					

1950 Cleveland Welding Roadmaster that I really don't want to sell but it may be time to have it move on to a new home. Pictures sort of speak for themselves but let me know if you have questions....



					vancouver.craigslist.org
				




This is for sale locally in Canadian dollars. What year do you think this is? Thanks Bill


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## Oilit (Sep 18, 2022)

Could be 1950. I would ask the seller where he gets the date and if he'll let you see the serial number.


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## Outskirtscustoms (Nov 18, 2022)

C72050 with no CW visible so 1937-1938? or 1944?


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## Outskirtscustoms (Nov 18, 2022)

C02592 A Cw 1950


----------

