# Just got this Elgin...need some help



## ratina (Jun 28, 2011)

Just picked up this Elgin. Trying to find out the year/model of it. Looks all original to me except for the aftermarket guard. Missing dropstand and clip. Stainless fenders, rims were chrome, paint looks like it might have been dark green, blue, or maybe black. The light on the rear rack looks added. Glass lens, says "Doray" on it. any info on it? 

Thanks!


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## ratina (Jun 28, 2011)

more pics


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## then8j (Jun 28, 2011)

I think you scored on that one.....wasn't it on eBay local pickup only? I remember the very low selling price.....


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## slick (Jun 28, 2011)

So you are the 1 who scored!!!! I saw that 1 too. Very good buy! Looks like the front tube cover of the battery tube is still attached to the frame bar. Great bike. Just regrease everything and ride it! Watch the heads turn as you cruise past.


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## ratina (Jun 28, 2011)

then8j said:


> I think you scored on that one.....wasn't it on eBay local pickup only? I remember the very low selling price.....




Yes this is the one! Still in shock I got it so cheap!


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## ratina (Jun 28, 2011)

slick said:


> So you are the 1 who scored!!!! I saw that 1 too. Very good buy! Looks like the front tube cover of the battery tube is still attached to the frame bar. Great bike. Just regrease everything and ride it! Watch the heads turn as you cruise past.




Yes still can't believe it. Yeah the guy said once he found out how much the lights were worth he sold them separately a while back. He left the one piece on. My plan is to tear it down, clean and re grease, and some new tires and ride!


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 28, 2011)

Hello,
I have this Elgin (never had a model name, I believe) and it's a 37, probably was originally burgundy red and the light on the rack was original, yet transplanted from the original rear fender...which the stainless ones are not, to the best of my knowledge.
Westfield made so you can go to Mr. Columbia's website and reference SN under crank hanger.
The initial temptation is to extract the tires, but I would not if they are Allstate WW... just substitute the wheels as these tires are impossible to find and have value even in unrideable condition.
Chris


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## ratina (Jun 28, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> Hello,
> I have this Elgin (never had a model name, I believe) and it's a 37, probably was originally burgundy red and the light on the rack was original, yet transplanted from the original rear fender...which the stainless ones are not, to the best of my knowledge.
> Westfield made so you can go to Mr. Columbia's website and reference SN under crank hanger.
> The initial temptation is to extract the tires, but I would not if they are Allstate WW... just substitute the wheels as these tires are impossible to find and have value even in unrideable condition.
> Chris




So the fenders arent original? Didn't know it was Westfield built, going to check the serial number now. 1 tire is an Allstate but its blown through I believe. Someone would want a tire in that bad of shape?


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 28, 2011)

Re: fenders...from my research invested on this bike, I have never seen stainless fenders on it, also never seen it outside of burgundy red.
Besides, it just doesn't look right or consistent with the aging of the rest of the bike.
Maybe I'm wrong and these fenders are correct for, let's say a 36, but I would bet against it.

Yes, some would want that original tire for the historical value and being correct on high dollar Elgins like the Blackhawk.  
I mention this as I made the mistake myself in writings with RMS37 about how qucikly I slapped on 60's blackwall replacements.
Chris


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## bricycle (Jun 28, 2011)

I agree with Chris, it's a 1937 according to "Da book". First model year for the new badge, and fenders with the "old moto" frame were painted fenders. Possibly added guard too. bri.
ps; '36's had old badge, raingutter fenders, and egg-carton racks. Fall/Winter '37-38 was last model year for old "moto" frames.


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## ratina (Jun 28, 2011)

Just checked the serial number. Decodes to a 36. Not saying you are wrong about the fenders, but stainless doesn't rust so thats why they aren't consistent (same with the aluminum stem) Don't see any signs of red but I'll have to take it apart and see. The top part of the dropstand clip is still on the fender. Would the light have mounted in the same holes as the drop stand? Or was it higher up?


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## ratina (Jun 28, 2011)

The front tire is an Allstate Balloon. Looks like it had a cool design on the sidewalls. Its completely shot. The back is a Pharis? out of Ohio. Even more shot.


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## bricycle (Jun 28, 2011)

Rat, hey, we'll have to get my '36 and your '37 together for a ride...


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## ratina (Jun 28, 2011)

My serial number is A79***

1936.……A5429 - A266083

Bricycle, once its rideable we should!


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## bricycle (Jun 28, 2011)

No offence, but can we depend on the lists?... mine begins with a "C" which would make it a '38... they didn't have rain gutter fenders and the old badge in '38?????


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## ratina (Jun 28, 2011)

I thought so but who knows. How you do you know yours is a 36? Got a picture? Thanks again for all the help everyone


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## Adamtinkerer (Jun 29, 2011)

Not every model available was shown in the catalogs, and the book doesn't have every catalog per year. They had the spring/summer, fall/winter, and xmas editions. And they did spec red or black on these, though most seem to be red. And there's always the possiblity of leftover parts being used up. Westfield numbers do seem to be consistent, but you never know!


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## ratina (Jun 29, 2011)

Pulled the headbadge off and its black underneath. Tried to loosen some bolts for the heck of it. Stem, fork, truss rods, pedals, chain adjusters, seat post, headbadge all came off no problem!


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## bricycle (Jun 29, 2011)

Wow, that's great! I never have that luck.


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## ratina (Jun 29, 2011)

bricycle said:


> Wow, that's great! I never have that luck.





Me either, I've had much worse luck with a lot better looking bikes!


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## bricycle (Jun 30, 2011)

*Dating Elgins...*



ratina said:


> I thought so but who knows. How you do you know yours is a 36? Got a picture? Thanks again for all the help everyone




Rat.... here's mine...


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## ratina (Jun 30, 2011)

bricycle said:


> Rat.... here's mine...




Nice! How many teeth are on the rear cog! it looks huge


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 30, 2011)

*reference elgin*

This is a pic of a 37 with the markings as yours, but this model was originally without a tank.
Chris


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## ratina (Jun 30, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> This is a pic of a 37 with the markings as yours.
> Chris
> 
> View attachment 23018




Nice! So these did come with small toolbox tanks or was that added?


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 30, 2011)

That's coincidental...while I was editing my post because I thought you might ask about the tank, you were putting together a question about it.
500 posts...do I win something?


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## ratina (Jun 30, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> That's coincidental...while I was editing my post because I thought you might ask about the tank, you were putting together a question about it.
> 500 posts...do I win something?




Ha thats funny. You still didnt answer though


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 30, 2011)

Scroll up Ratina.

No, the bike pic I posted did not originally come with a tank according to the literature on it, it was added as an accessory...note it's not a precise fitting for the frame.


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## ratina (Jun 30, 2011)

Gotcha, thats what I figured but its the second one I've seen like that.


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## bricycle (Jun 30, 2011)

That's the beauty of these, don't have to worry about snaring a tank...yea!   You could say "It's a tankless job, but rewarding none the less..."   awhhh...pretty bad..I know....


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## ratina (Jul 2, 2011)

bricycle said:


> That's the beauty of these, don't have to worry about snaring a tank...yea!   You could say "It's a tankless job, but rewarding none the less..."   awhhh...pretty bad..I know....




Absolutely. That always seems like the hardest part. 

Does anyone know what these fenders are off of?


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## ratina (Jul 4, 2011)

Can anyone tell me what these fenders are from?


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## ratina (Jul 6, 2011)

bump - anyone


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## RMS37 (Jul 6, 2011)

Hi Ratina, I’m weighing as per your request. Very nice find! 

This is the second Westfield/Elgin Moto-Balloon I have seen with these Stainless Steel fenders. I usually place the tipping point at around three examples before I come down off the fence, but my opinion is that the fenders are original to the bike. They are definitely Westfield spec fenders and Westfield offered bicycles with these same pattern fenders in mild steel, aluminum, and SS. The companion curved seat mast Oriole was illustrated in the catalog with all three at various times during production. 

As Adam noted, the consumer catalogs are just a snapshot of what Sears offered and the models sold through the retail outlets or special catalogs were not necessarily identical to the general catalog offerings. If I were to choose what I believe is the simplest explanation for the fenders on this bike, I would go with it being a less common factory variant likely sold from a retail store.  

It is also possible that the fenders were switched out at a retail outlet by design or by mistake, but if they were, it would be likely the upper fender bridge hole would not line up with the brace as the Orioles have a different geometry. 

The rack is a standard Sears accessory item and may have been purchased at the same time as the bike either through the catalog or off the shelf at a retail store. This is also a possibility regarding the tank on Scrubbinrim’s bike. 

As for dating the bike I have a high degree of trust in the decoding of Westfield serial numbers as it stands. Elgins often have a second stamping beginning with a letter code one or two letters higher than the one preceding the serial number which explains the presence of a C on a 1936 bike. The thin Elgin “V” badge was phased in during 1936 so that doesn’t pose a problem with the date for this bike.

A side note is that I have never seen one of these bikes in anything but the listed Black or Red, but in my experience, Black is by far the more prevalent color!

In the long run, even with a pile of factory literature at hand, variations will turn up that are not certifiable through documentation. These examples require an extra measure of scrutiny to come to what might be considered a “best practices” conclusion. In cases like this there really is no way to prove that the specification is or is not true factory, so there will always be the need to keep a percentage point of openness around any conclusion drawn.


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## ratina (Jul 7, 2011)

RMS37 said:


> Hi Ratina, I’m weighing as per your request. Very nice find!
> 
> This is the second Westfield/Elgin Moto-Balloon I have seen with these Stainless Steel fenders. I usually place the tipping point at around three examples before I come down off the fence, but my opinion is that the fenders are original to the bike. They are definitely Westfield spec fenders and Westfield offered bicycles with these same pattern fenders in mild steel, aluminum, and SS. The companion curved seat mast Oriole was illustrated in the catalog with all three at various times during production.
> 
> ...




Thanks Phil!! Glad to hear the fenders could be original. The only other thing I can't find any info on is the light mounted on the rack? Do you know anything about that?

Mine does have a C 6 above the serial number


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## scrubbinrims (Jul 7, 2011)

If that's where the light was originally mounted, the rider couldn't get too many books on it or it would pack quite the surpise for a passenger.
It was designed for the fenders...but, I have been 1/2 wrong on this threads, so...
Chris


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## ratina (Jul 7, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> If that's where the light was originally mounted, the rider couldn't get too many books on it or it would pack quite the surpise for a passenger.
> It was designed for the fenders...but, I have been 1/2 wrong on this threads, so...
> Chris




Its screwed on so I highly doubt its the original location. Just wondering if it came on the bike, and if not, whats it from.


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## frogger1903 (Jul 7, 2011)

I would guess it came from an an automotive application and not a bicycle.


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## RMS37 (Jul 9, 2011)

RMS37 said:


> This is the second Westfield/Elgin Moto-Balloon I have seen with these Stainless Steel fenders.




Make that three!

http://ratrodbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=42651&sid=07b826b81c1d6d471a75bf116f33ca8a


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## scrubbinrims (Jul 9, 2011)

Hmmm...I would be interested to know if this was also a 36.
If a 37, then something determined whether the Westfield equipped with stainless or painted fenders on this model and I wonder what was more/less desirable.
Painted rims with a double stripe too...that's a different look, but the striping on the rims don't seem to match the rest of the bicycle.


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## RMS37 (Jul 9, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> Hmmm...I would be interested to know if this was also a 36.
> If a 37, then something determined whether the Westfield equipped with stainless or painted fenders on this model and I wonder what was more/less desirable.
> Painted rims with a double stripe too...that's a different look, but the striping on the rims don't seem to match the rest of the bicycle.




Once the triple stripe paint job was introduced on the Westfield Moto-Balloon Elgins and the bikes moved from the rain-gutter fenders to full crescent fenders there is very little difference between the bikes be they 36, 37 or 38. The SS fenders are not shown in the standard catalogs so they appear to be a variation that wasn’t advertised to be sold by mail-order. Perhaps the ones that left the factory that way were using up extra fenders that were not used up for Oriole production. 

The curved seat mast Oriole that was equipped with SS (or later, aluminum fenders) was a step up from the Moto models but interestingly the one iteration of the Oriole that was sold with mild steel fenders was a deluxe equipped version of the bike.  All things being equal, Stainless fenders are probably a step up from mild steel but there is probably no literature to use to compare them directly to see what Sear’s opinion was on the relative deluxe-ness of the two variations.

Painted rims? If we are looking at the same bike I think may be misreading dark triple-step shadows cast on rusty rims.

And, congrats on your recent Shelby score!


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## stingrayjoe (Jul 10, 2011)

Is the rear carrier the right time period for this bike? Just wondering, as I have one of these carriers and this same bike.

Thanks


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## RMS37 (Jul 11, 2011)

The light mounted on top of the carrier appears to be an add-on based on the location and the mfg. name on the lens. 

The rack itself is a standard accessory rack that was available for a number of years (approx 1935-1939) in the Sears catalogs concurrent with the offering of the Westfield/Elgin Moto-Balloons. The sheet metal of the rack is the same stamping as that portion of a Bluebird or Skylark rack. The presence of the rack on this bike as retail original or accessory add-on is questionable; it is possible that it was either. Although it was not pictured as a standard fitment for the bike in the consumer catalogs, neither were the SS fenders. I suppose it is safe to say that if you want or need a rack on one of these bikes _this_ is the appropriate rack to fit to it.


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## ratina (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks Phil. I might still use it if it works.


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## ratina (Jul 11, 2011)

Looks like Doray made automotive lights. This must be a marker light, maybe a tail light. Can't find any info on it.


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