# Davis made decal question.



## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2013)

While researching Davis bikes namely Harley Davidson. I found a interesting detail not noticed before on these bikes.  The decal I found has 2 variations mine in harley colored border/inside and with black. Then one example off the net is in red border and white/black. Why the variation? Did harley bikes have the hd color decal and non hd bikes came with a different decal? The first one is mine and the frame with the striped fender is the net.


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## hoofhearted (Dec 29, 2013)

*redline1968* ... i don't believe most readers are even aware of a H-D bicycle actually 
having a Davis decal on the seat mast ... or _*anywhere*_ on the bicycle, for that matter.

This typer is stunned .. not so much for the graphic-variation seen in those two Davis 
decals that you posted ... am stunned because i've never observed such an occurance .. 
that being the parent company indicator (decal) on a machine 'supposedly-built' by H-D.

What a great find this is, redline1968 ... Good Eye !!!

You done good !!!

.............  patric


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## chitown (Dec 29, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> While researching Davis bikes namely Harley Davidson. I found a interesting detail not noticed before on these bikes.




Did any original Harley badged bikes even have a Davis decal on them???


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## hoofhearted (Dec 29, 2013)

*chitown* ... wow ... i would like to say i knew if original H-D badged bicycles 
had that little Davis decal on them ... but can't 'cause i don't know.  Never have seen 
an example on an authentic H-D badged bicycle ... 'cept for redline1968's example.


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## hoofhearted (Dec 29, 2013)

*Aarrrgh !!!*


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## chitown (Dec 29, 2013)

hoofhearted said:


> Never have seen an example on an authentic H-D badged bicycle ... 'cept for redline1968's example.




An authentic red paint H-D badged example??? I respectively disagree.






The badge on this bike doesn't look H-D to me, nor does the sprocket. I don't know why this bike is repeatedly trying to be passed off as a Harley Davidson when it clearly isn't. I don't know what the badge on this bike was either. It has been removed and so has the sprocket and replaced with H-D sprocket.

If I'm misinterpreting the intent of this thread then I apologize.


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## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2013)

Glad you post that pic that color u see is red primer. Not red.  The question is the decal is harley green not the regular decal why?. Also that is a correct hd bike chain ring is not.


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## chitown (Dec 29, 2013)

A decal survived but no paint??? My question would be, why is a decal showing directly on primer, not paint?

Can you share what this bike was originally badged?

As far as variations in color, because Davis was a DOCUMENTED supplier of military bikes, they may have made some during the war period. Other manufacturers had olive green bikes in the teens also. Not exclusive to Harley.


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## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2013)

Actually the decal is flaking off slightly. The entire thing was painted black over the paint and decal why it's still there is a question.  The color is hd. I don't think Davis built bikes during ww2.


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## chitown (Dec 29, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> Actually the decal is flaking off slightly. The entire thing was painted black over the paint and decal why it's still there is a question.  The color is hd. I don't think Davis built bikes during ww2.




Maybe your decal is a repro. I don't know how a decal is the only surviving piece or original surface on this bike. Especially if you say it was painted black over it. So you are saying that there is ORIGINAL paint under the decal???

I was referring to WWI as when Davis built military bikes.

What was the badge on this bike? It looks oval in shape?


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## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2013)

Thanks to the web I found an interesting pic that shows this variation of decal on it. It sure looks like the same color to to me. What a looker looks like my bike in question.


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## chitown (Dec 29, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> Thanks to the web I found an interesting pic that shows this variation of decal on it. It sure looks like the same color to to me.




How about an original and not restored bike. This only reinforces my repro decal comment.


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## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2013)

Report yes but why the hd color?


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## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2013)

Repop yes but why the hd color?


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## chitown (Dec 29, 2013)

To further spread the myth that Davis built Harley frames.


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## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2013)

Here ya go... Cowan auctions.. Looks like a decal to me. It looks like they glued a small bike on it.  So ok here is my theory.  The color was used to blend into the bike as not to detract from the hd mystique of building all bikes including bicycles and not having these bikes shipped to a separate company to build them. A sales technique.


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## chitown (Dec 29, 2013)

*Yes that is indeed a decal, but does it say Davis Built???*

I just don't see Harley letting a Davis Made decal going onto one of their branded/badged bikes. Harley Davidson was very anti-jobbing and claimed to have turned down several offers to make motorcycles to be badged other than HD. To then team up with Davis who built for the cheapest jobber out there (Sears) would not be very business smart. In fact they would be contradicting their own advertising which claimed to make a stand against jobbing.

What about this Schwinn built Harley??? Identical to Oldnuts historic Excelsior with built in Drop Stand!!!
I don't know about the provenance of this bike but found it a curious piece of the puzzle that was the _Harley Bicycle Experiment_. It may just be a fake put together with a repro chainring, but that wouldn't be the first time that has happened.













I have been wondering about all the confusion of bikes from the teens. Haverford, Mead, Sears, Arrow, Harley. All of these companies didn't actually build their own bikes but may have just assembled them from a mix of builders and parts suppliers. The one thing that *is* consistent is that there *is no* consistency in any of these brands offerings. This got me to thinking about the Cycle Trade Directorate which was the collection of manufacturers that met annually in Atlantic City to discuss the Cycle Trades and how to make sure the bicycle trade would take on any issues like foreign competition and mail order threats to brick and mortar business. What if they all agreed to share accounts like Mead, Sears, Haverford and even Harley Davidson. This would mean everyone would get a piece of the pie and limit price gouging by jobbers and large takeovers like the ABC at the turn of the century. Each model being produced by a different manufacturer with some similar key pieces to distinguish them as their own brand.


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## fordsnake (Dec 29, 2013)

I concur with your latest assessment Chief Chitown...it's what I was attempting to share with the Haverport & Miami similarities on the Black Beauty thread. But you lived up to your new monicker...."the antagonist"  before I could produce the evidence.


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## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2013)

chitown said:


> I just don't see Harley letting a Davis Made decal going onto one of their branded/badged bikes. Harley Davidson was very anti-jobbing and claimed to have turned down several offers to make motorcycles to be badged other than HD. To then team up with Davis who built for the cheapest jobber out there (Sears) would not be very business smart. In fact they would be contradicting their own advertising which claimed to make a stand against jobbing.
> 
> What about this Schwinn built Harley??? Identical to Oldnuts historic Excelsior with built in Drop Stand!!!
> I don't know about the provenance of this bike but found it a curious piece of the puzzle that was the _Harley Bicycle Experiment_. It may just be a fake put together with a repro chainring, but that wouldn't be the first time that has happened.
> ...



Is the glass half full or empty. Plain ridiculous..what company would not save money?  Why in the hell would a company buy bicycle making equipment along with motorcycle equipment when they can have a company built it for less and sell it under there own brand badge. So u see there is a decal and circular I might add looks vaguely familiar. I say those who live under a rock can stay there.


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## redline1968 (Dec 29, 2013)

Ok brainiacs. Answer this question what built this frame? Interesting color in the hangar....looks like the bike pictured earlier? Hmmm.


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## chitown (Dec 29, 2013)

Is this the bike that was pictured earlier? The one with the decal over the primer, yet under the black paint?


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## chitown (Dec 29, 2013)

*New Bicycle Factory???*



redline1968 said:


> Why in the hell would a company buy bicycle making equipment along with motorcycle equipment when they can have a company built it for less and sell it under there own brand badge.




They didn't need equipment so much as a space to assemble the parts they ordered from Davis, Excelsior, Schwinn, Westfield, International Stamping, Troxel, New Departure, Lobdell or whoever else they picked as suppliers for parts for their bikes. The only equipment they needed was some wrenches and  screwdrivers and such so put them together. 

The standardization of the industry was being pushed so you couldn't tell who built what anyhow. A perfect formula to screw up collectors years later.


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## Flat Tire (Dec 30, 2013)

Dont forget Davis kept making the HD bicycles after the contract had expired, and kept doing so until Arthur Davidson made a personal visit to the plant, so who knows, those bikes may have had the Davis decal,,,just a thought.


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## redline1968 (Dec 30, 2013)

Thank you for the info that's very interesting.  Any other variations on the decal would be nice to see.


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## John (Dec 30, 2013)

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/H-D_History/history_1910s.jsp?locale=en_GB

HD doesn’t mind talking today about Davis.



*1917*
The sale of Harley-Davidson bicycles begins. Individual components are made by the Davis Sewing Machine Co. of Dayton, Ohio. The bicycles are sold through the H-D dealer network.


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## chitown (Dec 30, 2013)

John said:


> *Individual components* are made by the Davis Sewing Machine Co. of Dayton, Ohio.




I think this is a key statement. It says nothing about frames. It says individual components. The only thing Davis on an HD bike is the H-D Sprocket. There are many components to a bicycle. The fenders that are often referred to as "Davis built" are not Davis Built. They are International Stamping products. The rear stand that is attributed to Davis is found on other makes of bicycle including Sears and Excelsior. In 1914 industry listings of the cycle trades, there are several bicycle stand manufacturers listed... Davis is not one of them. Excelsior is listed as a bicycle stand maker as is International Stamping. Other early stands that were previously attributed to Davis have been shown to be built by CCM. 

The Harley Davidson site doesn't mention where they get their rims, forksides and mudguards for the 1918 line of motorcycles. Yet those were supplied from an outsourced company too... Standard Parts Company of Cleveland. Why do they leave that out? What other firms were outsourced for building HD motorcycle parts or components.





Standard Part Co merged with Standard Welding which I believe later became Cleveland Welding Co. Standard is listed as a bicycle fork manufacturer in 1914 and also advertise as supplying over 70% of the bicycle and motorcycle tubing and parts in the country.


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## redline1968 (Dec 30, 2013)

The subject is done with as is my participation. Schwinn built the harley frames so says the one and only chitown and ford snake. long live the dynamic 2 some.


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## chitown (Dec 30, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> Ok brainiacs. Answer this question what built this frame? Interesting color in the hangar....looks like the bike pictured earlier? Hmmm.






It could be a Rollfast???






They are listed as having Olive Drab and Black color combos!


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## redline1968 (Dec 30, 2013)

chitown said:


> It could be a Rollfast???
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Is that color getting you perplexed? Is it schwinn built? Hint... Vertical hole spacing... No black is not its orig color


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## redline1968 (Dec 30, 2013)

Hmmm.. Let me see.. Olive color paint in crank hangar (means it might have been completely painted that color).....  Check
 Hmmm... Familiar frame say 1918ish
Looks like a Moto bike style..
Vertical hole spacing..oh...forgot pic on that.
Oh ya... Serial number placement ....ah...yes I forgot the serial number placement pic...


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## chitown (Dec 31, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> Hmmm.. Let me see.. Olive color paint in crank hangar (means it might have been completely painted that color).....




Could this sticker variation you are curious about with the olive background be for a Davis made National? They would have been available in olive drab. I don't know about the badge spacing on your bike.






I'm curious about the red primer on your bike with the surviving decal. Is that original primer or recently done (last 60yrs or so). 

btw the Rollfasts were available with either olive drab base with black head tube or in reverse. I'm simply trying to show that Harley wasn't the only one to use olive drab around WWI.


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## redline1968 (Dec 31, 2013)

Not national...Moto frame's both are 20 in. And yes original red primer and rust.


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## chitown (Dec 31, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> Not national...Moto frame's both are 20 in. And yes original red primer and rust.




The ad says 22" with a 2" drop. So the 20" you have corresponds to the ad. I believe Patric has described this as how they measured Davis motobike frames at the time. Hoofhearted... can you confirm this?

If you look at the Davis thread there is a wonderful discovery about the model numbers being on the bottom bracket. Yours looks like a model # 272. That would make it a 1922 Model Davis build. The first number "2" is a "1" on "the DAYTON" models. I'm not sure what model/badge the 2 prefix on your bike refers to. Yale models begin with 5 and Snells begin with 3. Just have to find out what other bikes Davis was making at that time and you may have a match.


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## redline1968 (Dec 31, 2013)

Not double reinforced head tube on Dayton built bikes. The Davis built bikes are flush tubing.  They used double construction for the head tube construction for Dayton built frames not Davis built frames.


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## redline1968 (Dec 31, 2013)

This is what drop means see pic.


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## chitown (Dec 31, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> This is what drop means see pic.




I'd like an official word from hoofhearted to confirm how to measure a camelback frame from the teens. I thought I remember him explaining it as if the top bar had an invisible line to the seat bar and that is how they measured them.


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## redline1968 (Dec 31, 2013)

"............"
      ....


Lol....
Another interesting pic first is just the frame second is the green decal  Davis frame


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## chitown (Dec 31, 2013)

*Can't leave out Miami as an Olive Drab producer!*

Miami had Olive Drab bikes also.


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## hoofhearted (Jan 1, 2014)

*FRAME-SIZE Measuring a Teen's / Twenty's Era Motorbike or Camelback ......*

One or ALL of The '17 thru '21 H-D Catalogs really goes into this in great detail.

....... patric


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