# Is it finally time to start hoarding English three speeds?



## bikewhorder (Apr 4, 2012)

I had this bike on my watch list because it was close to me and I thought if I could snag it for less than $150 it would be nice to have, but apparently I am way out of touch on the value of such a bike.  The chain guard is the best feature but $455! really? 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...:MEWAX:IT&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_1795wt_1497


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## ohdeebee (Apr 4, 2012)

Early Raleighs always seem to bring good money. They are very well built and with the parts on this bike I'm not that surprised. Full wrap guard, generator hub, Brooks saddle, etc. It's a deluxe bike, no doubt about it.


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## Saving Tempest (Apr 4, 2012)

Not in Boise.  'English' bikes seem to be in overabundence, fixies are EVERYWHERE and while 3-speeds are fine by me I can't stand the ethics of anything BUT SCHWINNS-Panasonics, Fujis, Nishikis, PEUGEOTS, hacked into single-speeds because a buck ws perceived. OUCH!


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## ridingtoy (Apr 4, 2012)

I remember back around 1960, English 3-speeds were all the rage in our city neighborhood. Almost to a bike they were all black with a bit of white trim. I was the oddball with my Roadmaster single speed.

Dave


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## danny7147 (Apr 4, 2012)

*Wow...*

That... is shocking. How can someone seriously be willing to pay that amount for a Raleigh? That's... stunned me... not at the bike as such, but about the complete stupidity that someone was willing to hand over that amount of cash when they could have got one for under half the price!

Okay... here's a comparison...

Exhibit one...






A Raleigh, probably late 50's, reasonable condition. Here in the UK it wouldn't have a dream of selling for over £130. No Raleigh would unless it was a VERY rare pre 1940's model, then it might hit £200 ($300). But... that?

I collect a lot of bikes. I restore a lot of bikes. I strip a lot of bikes for parts, sell the bits and scrap the frames. Let me just turn my head slightly to the left at one I picked up a couple of days ago, take a photo and post it...







Take a look at the similarities here... noting especially the lights, dynohub, and the tube attached to the downtube which acts as a battery pack so that when you stop pedalling the lights don't go off. Now how much did I pay? £44 ($66)... and he would have taken less. It's ridable, original, and the lights work. I'm not saying it's for sale, but if someone offered me £90 for it I would double my money, let alone $455!!

Take it from someone who knows the market for English bikes in England... pay more than $150 for anything other than a Sunbeam, Humber or Royal Enfield, and I could have got you one for half the price you paid. Okay, shipping's a nuisance, but you get my point!


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## danny7147 (Apr 4, 2012)

*Norman...*

BUT... that said, in terms of overpaying, if anyone sees a Norman around in the USA please let me know  I collect them, and I've been looking at reimporting an export model to go with my collection!





That's a 1954 Norman, 1950 Norman, and 1905 Sunbeam... gallery of photos on my profile


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## bikewhorder (Apr 5, 2012)

Ive got a fair condition original paint 28" rod pull brake norman popular I would sell. I'll post some pics in the gallery tonight.


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## Lawrence Ruskin (Apr 5, 2012)

OK English, have you heard of a Royal, it's supposed to be made by sunbeam.

I saw one a short while ago, looked terribly English, was beautifully made.

Around here there are plenty of English bikes and they go for pretty good prices, depending on condition.

TTFN, Lawrence


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## danny7147 (Apr 5, 2012)

*Norman...*

That would be great... I can't promise it would be in the immediate future, I've (honestly!) had three bikes delivered today, but it's something I would really like to do!


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## danny7147 (Apr 5, 2012)

Lawrence Ruskin said:


> OK English, have you heard of a Royal, it's supposed to be made by sunbeam.
> 
> I saw one a short while ago, looked terribly English, was beautifully made.
> 
> ...




Sunbeam were the 'elite' British company, they were owned and ruled by a perfectionist and were known as "The Rolls Royce of Bicycles". The 'Royal' Sunbeam was introduced in the late 1890's as their top of the range bike. It was distinctive because it had fine red handpainted trim lines around it. Amazing bike, far advanced, it had an epicyclic chainring, a gear mechanism which gave the front two gear ratios.

In 1907 the 'Golden' Sunbeam was released, and that's one of the most sought after bikes in the UK, even a scrap one will easily fetch £300+. That replaced the 'Royal' as the top of the range, but both were sold until the 1950's. The Golden was lined in pure gold leaf.

I've got this old girl...







It's a 1905 Royal Sunbeam. When I finally found the frame number under years of rust the Humber Register have confirmed it as a 1905, one of the rarest Sunbeams. Okay, it's in seriously poor condition, but I've been offered £1000 for it PLUS shipping to a guy in Indonesia 

I did a thread a little while back debating whether it should be restored or left 'as is'. It's about 4th in the list at the moment, after a 1914 Humber, 1957 Norman and 1958 Norman, so time will tell!


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## danny7147 (Apr 5, 2012)

Sorry, that may have posted twice...


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## Lawrence Ruskin (Apr 5, 2012)

Yep, the Royal I saw was a camel back, all pinstriped and the detail on the lugs was all sculpted.

It was rusty and needed a total resto, but it would be a beautiful bike in the end.

Thanks for the info Danny, that was very helpful. I was looking all over the net without much luck.


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## danny7147 (Apr 5, 2012)

*Sunbeam*

No problem, if you can get hold of a Sunbeam it's something that would take pride of place in any collection. As a rule of thumb with them (and talking about the English market, not American), a pre-1906/7 will fetch silly money. Those are the ones you could easily talk into the 4 figures for. 1910's will hit from £300-800, sometimes more for good ones, then 1920's £250-500. Of course you do see a 1920's one, totally authentic, etc etc that will sell for a few thousand but even a 50's one when they were owned by Raleigh would be a bargain for £150, 3 times what the same Raleigh etc would fetch here.

Mine's unusual in that the frame number dates it at 1905, but Sunbeam modernised old bikes for customers (for a price) as the key components were still the same so mine had a new saddle/handlebars in the 1920's. With the original handlebars it would be worth 3 times the value now!

I emailed a brochure to a friend of mine on here a little while back... I can't upload it to the cabe as it's about 2mb but if you'd like to message me your email address I'll mail a copy to you. It's a scan of a 1905 brochure and it makes fascinating reading because of the innovations they had back then! Sure, the epicyclic gearing, but also back pedalling rear brakes (totally unheard of back then) too. There's a full gallery of mine on my profile. It was a total luck find. My wife was scouring the net for old bikes to strip for parts and found a pair of Raleighs not far away. When we got there it turned out that they were 90's so I went to walk away. The guy said he had a couple of old ones out the back and high up on the wall of a junk storage area were that and the 1914 Humber! I didn't know what they were, they were both completely rusted and rotten, but he took £80 for the pair! The Humber's not very rare, but still worth around £1000 restored


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## danny7147 (Apr 5, 2012)

*Insanity...*

And now check this out and you'll realise why I just spilt my nice cup of tea all over my trousers...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1952-Raleigh-Dawn-Tourist-12L-Sturmey-Archer-dynohub-Brooks-saddle-vintage-/350539134630?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519dc2b6a6

Nuts...


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## bikewhorder (Apr 5, 2012)

*Here's that Norman Popular as promised*

let me know if your interested.


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## Lawrence Ruskin (Apr 6, 2012)

You can find fully dressed Bitish bikes here in British Columbia, on craigslist. nice ones, for less than $ 500.

The guy that owns that bike on e bay is dreaming.


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## danny7147 (Apr 6, 2012)

*Norman*

Well that's interesting because you may be able to answer a question that's been on my mind... I've read in a lot of places that Norman exported bikes to commonwealth countries under the brand name of "Rambler"... so is that a make you've heard of? Or are Normans possible to find in Canada?


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## Matt Jaffe (Apr 6, 2012)

danny7147 said:


> And now check this out and you'll realise why I just spilt my nice cup of tea all over my trousers...




Maybe the Queen owned it...


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