# 1939 Ladies Hercules



## jimbo53 (Feb 15, 2022)

I found this beauty in Albemarle, NC. Hub date is AW-9, which, from my research, dates it to 1939. 26” wheels with rod brakes, tangent S/A shifter with zig-zag cable run and very nice Dunlop Drilastic M-15 saddle.
Serial number on left rear dropout reads FT10311.
Of interest is the white (now yellowed)  rear fender tip that is overlaid over the original black fender. Haven’t begun tearing down, but the underside of the fender is not rusted through. When we’re the white fender tips required?
Should be a fun project. Looks complete, but will need lots of elbow grease!


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## Schwinny (Feb 15, 2022)

That is a really unique head arrangement at the top bar. Very cool.
The rear tail requirement was in 35-36' as I remember. Overlays were sold to retro-fit older bikes. There are several still NOS for sale on UK Ebay. Yours seems to have the Herc badge. is is on the cover or holding the cover to the fender?
The AW rear hub came about in 36' according to the AS Archive. Maybe the 9th version?
Are those actual Endrick rims?

Nice bike.


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## Threespeedmafia (Feb 15, 2022)

Very nice find. It is going to give you a very upright ride.  Nice to see the center of your head badge hasn’t crumbled away like most of these.  Here are a couple pics of my mid 30s with a K5 hub.


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## Oilit (Feb 15, 2022)

Congratulations @jimbo53! I saw that last night and was wondering how old it was, now we know. I've got this women's Hercules I bought from @ZE52414 which I believe is also 1939, and it has a lot of the same components but yours looks more complete and has a more interesting frame. Nice find!








						Any help on what it’s worth. | Vintage Lightweight Bicycles
					

I’m buying this from a local friend. Probably for resale, it’s just a little bit out of my wheelhouse. It has some pretty cool parts. It will be much appreciated if someone can help me out with value. I’m sure it will make for a good parts bike for someone. Thanks guys.




					thecabe.com


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## SirMike1983 (Feb 15, 2022)

It looks like a 1939 model to me as well. AW-9 "Patent Applied For" is 1939, and the rest of the bike looks it.

The white rear fender tip was the product of a Road Traffic Act dating to fall 1934. The specification was a patch of 12 square inches of white, centered 13 inches above the ground. This supplemented the 1927 rear reflector requirement. Bicycle-car accidents were a serious problem in the 1920s and 30s, particularly in low light conditions. The use of a rear white fender tip goes back with some brands before the law required it, but the law specifying the size and location was 1934.

This bike has an add-on piece that was made separately from fender stock and painted white. The piece was made to comply with the law and offered a relatively easy way to meet the requirement. You simply make, paint, and fasten the piece to the rear fender. Damaged pieces could be replaced. Hercules continued to use these pieces long after the 1934 law came into effect. I had a 1946 Hercules that had such a piece.


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## jimbo53 (Feb 15, 2022)

Threespeedmafia said:


> Very nice find. It is going to give you a very upright ride.  Nice to see the center of your head badge hasn’t crumbled away like most of these.  Here are a couple pics of my mid 30s with a K5 hub.
> 
> View attachment 1570760
> 
> ...





Oilit said:


> Congratulations @jimbo53! I saw that last night and was wondering how old it was, now we know. I've got this women's Hercules I bought from @ZE52414 which I believe is also 1939, and it has a lot of the same components but yours looks more complete and has a more interesting frame. Nice find!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cool one, Joel! Always wondered why they did curved top tubes and straight top tubes in the same year. I saw it probably same time you did on FBM, and set up time to meet yesterday AM. Couldn’t pass it up, if you nothing else than for the quadrant shifter and Dunlop saddle. Has some boo-boo’s but at this age they all do. Even have a set of tires and tubes for a project I didn’t get to.


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## SirMike1983 (Feb 15, 2022)

Here is the add-on piece on the 1946 Hercules Model C that I used to own, mentioned above.


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## Oilit (Feb 15, 2022)

jimbo53 said:


> Cool one, Joel! Always wondered why they did curved top tubes and straight top tubes in the same year. I saw it probably same time you did on FBM, and set up time to meet yesterday AM. Couldn’t pass it up, if you nothing else than for the quadrant shifter and Dunlop saddle. Has some boo-boo’s but at this age they all do. Even have a set of tires and tubes for a project I didn’t get to.



Mine says "Hercules Sports Model" on the lower tube, if you get the light just right. I'm guessing yours is an older design, for people who were concerned more with proper decorum rather than sporting pretensions.


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## Oilit (Feb 15, 2022)

Schwinny said:


> That is a really unique head arrangement at the top bar. Very cool.
> The rear tail requirement was in 35-36' as I remember. Overlays were sold to retro-fit older bikes. There are several still NOS for sale on UK Ebay. Yours seems to have the Herc badge. is is on the cover or holding the cover to the fender?
> The AW rear hub came about in 36' according to the AS Archive. Maybe the 9th version?
> Are those actual Endrick rims?
> ...



Check out this article by Sheldon Brown, under the section "Dating your Raleigh 3-speed Bicycle." This was the first reference to dating the pre-war hubs I found.





						Sheldon Brown's Raleigh Bicycle Page
					

This page holds general informaiton about Raleigh bicycles, and especially those made in England.



					www.sheldonbrown.com


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## Schwinny (Feb 15, 2022)

Oilit said:


> Check out this article by Sheldon Brown, under the section "Dating your Raleigh 3-speed Bicycle." This was the first reference to dating the pre-war hubs I found.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So that's how it looks.... So I guess 39 it is


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## jimbo53 (Feb 15, 2022)

Oilit said:


> Check out this article by Sheldon Brown, under the section "Dating your Raleigh 3-speed Bicycle." This was the first reference to dating the pre-war hubs I found.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’ve been referring to Sheldon Brown since I’ve gotten in to bikes, and he’s still the go-to for research, even beyond the grave! RIP Sheldon!


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## dnc1 (Feb 16, 2022)

Nice find in great condition. 
There were 3 similarly framed models in the '39 catalogues.
The image from the catalogue you posted on the previous page is not quite what you have, the frame is noticeably different at the top head lug, although your example does have that models chainguard.
This of course could be an export market model which could explain the discrepancies. Hercules were the largest bicycle exporters of the time from the UK, and the catalogue image here is from the domestic market.
Here are the two models with your frame lugs.....










... with the previously posted image at the bottom for comparison. 
That top headlug design was used also by Rudge and Raleigh and probably several others from the 1900's up to definitely the late 50's.

Your example also looks like it has had the fork replaced by a 'Raleigh' fork at some point in its history, those distinctive dimples on the fork crown are a bit of a giveway. 
That might explain why the front mudguard looks a little misaligned in its curvature in relation to the wheel.
That being said, it won't detract from the riding experience,  and it's still a great looking bicycle.

(Images from V-CC library).


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## jimbo53 (Feb 16, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> Nice find in great condition.
> There were 3 similarly framed models in the '39 catalogues.
> The image from the catalogue you posted on the previous page is not quite what you have, the frame is noticeably different at the top head lug, although your example does have that models chainguard.
> This of course could be an export market model which could explain the discrepancies. Hercules were the largest bicycle exporters of the time from the UK, and the catalogue image here is from the domestic market.
> ...



Thanks for the great information and catalogue images, Darren. That fork is definately a later Raleigh, but I'll run it for now-hard to come by prewar Hercules parts this side of the pond, so will enjoy it as is. Does the chainguard rather than chaincase indicate it was an export rather than domestic model?


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## dnc1 (Feb 17, 2022)

jimbo53 said:


> Thanks for the great information and catalogue images, Darren. That fork is definately a later Raleigh, but I'll run it for now-hard to come by prewar Hercules parts this side of the pond, so will enjoy it as is. Does the chainguard rather than chaincase indicate it was an export rather than domestic model?



You're welcome. 
Not sure about whether the chainguard was standard fitment on the export models but it would make sense. Someone will have to come up with an export catalogue I guess.
Your example is definitely sporting a period correct Hercules guard though.
It may explain why so many British bikes of the era that surface on The Cabe seemingly have 'incorrect' chainguards compared to UK catalogues.


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## Schwinny (Feb 24, 2022)

_"That fork is definately a later Raleigh, but I'll run it for now-hard to come by prewar Hercules parts this side of the pond, so will enjoy it as is."_

Actually, that might likely be the original fork. It is a budget priced Phillips fork and was probably used by Hercules on some export bikes I guess.
Raleigh used them also and it became a style associated with Raleigh after the wheel products integration of the 50's in England left Raleigh on top and Phillips as an included company under the Raleigh name.
That fork is in the 35' catalog as the #203 R-pattern and in the 39' catalog the same but with an added chrome cup and cap model #204 also.


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## dnc1 (Feb 24, 2022)

Raleigh used that design from very early on.
It became "a style associated with Raleigh" from a lot earlier than the 1950's, it's associated with them because they designed it. Which is why Phillips referred to it as the "type R". 
Those items in the 'Phillips' catalogues are basically budget spare parts for people doing home repairs after accidents or upgrading pedals, handlebars etc.etc.
The sort of part that you could have purchased from your "non-official 'Raleigh' dealer" LBS.

T. I. acquired 'Phillips' around 1920, 'Hercules' in 1946, and finally 'Raleigh' in 1960.
I can't imagine that 'Raleigh' would have been too happy with Hercules using their iconic design in 1939,  even if it was only for export models.

Here it is on a mates circa 1900 Raleigh 'Road Racer' that I admired and photographed in August 2021.....


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## SirMike1983 (Feb 24, 2022)

What is the threading on the steerer tube and headset? I would think a later Raleigh would be 26tpi proprietary and the aftermarket Phillips "R Type" would be 24tpi.


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## Schwinny (Feb 24, 2022)

I've been pouring over all the VCC stuff from a to z. 
I think my next bike might be an old English one also. Bike companies, parts companies... there are so many cross references between companies and suppliers it is quite a jumble. Phillips was in parts early on also.
Patent laws aren't forever its true. The fork is there in the catalogs to see. Its in the lower cost line-up. Those Export Chainguards in different configurations also. That fork is on other non-Raleigh bikes that are pre-consolidation also, and many after.
Going through the Armstrong histories and partnerships, they were compared to Hercules from many angles. Frame builders building bikes with sourced parts. Hercules was doing it on a massive export scale and Armstrong a couple dozen at a time. I read Hercules sold way more bikes outside the country than in, by far. Something about the politics of sales partnerships gave Hercules a big advantage outside the country.
All these parts companies were right there in B-ham with buyers coming from around the block. No shipping or delivery charges on received parts is a cheaper bike.
I looked up the cost of mine in todays money and it would be around 350 pounds today. So about $500 U.S. Theres no way to get a bike of this quality today for $500. Their competitors were a pound higher. It must have been tooth and nail to sell a bike in England back then, there were so many makes available. All made local if that's what you wanted and all would take terms.
The good old days.


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## dnc1 (Feb 24, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> What is the threading on the steerer tube and headset? I would think a later Raleigh would be 26tpi proprietary and the aftermarket Phillips "R Type" would be 24tpi.








Phillips states 26 tpi, which would make sense if you're aiming it as a replacement for a 'Raleigh' original, otherwise the buyer would need to purchase a new headset as well.


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## SirMike1983 (Feb 24, 2022)

Interesting. So then if you put one on a Hercules, you'd have to replace the headset there because would the Hercules then not match at 24tpi? I've owned several old Hercules bikes over the years and they all had the stock, solid shoulder type Hercules fork.


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## dnc1 (Feb 24, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> Interesting. So then if you put one on a Hercules, you'd have to replace the headset there because would the Hercules then not match at 24tpi? I've owned several old Hercules bikes over the years and they all had the stock, solid shoulder type Hercules fork.



Yes, I guess you would.
I guess we'll have to ask @jimbo53 to unscrew that top nut and cover and get his thread gauge out and solve the mystery once and for all, lol.


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## dnc1 (Feb 24, 2022)

In fact most of the 'Phillips' fork offerings were 26tpi.....





...and some of these were at 30tpi in 31/32" (for head clip type), but the two offered for heavy duty carriers ( the two shown here far right) were their only two models offered at 24 tpi.....


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## jimbo53 (Mar 9, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> Yes, I guess you would.
> I guess we'll have to ask @jimbo53 to unscrew that top nut and cover and get his thread gauge out and solve the mystery once and for all, lol.



I haven't had the chance to break down the bike for a refurb yet, but will measure the tpi and post back later.


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## Schwinny (Mar 9, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> In fact most of the 'Phillips' fork offerings were 26tpi.....
> View attachment 1576804
> 
> ...and some of these were at 30tpi in 31/32" (for head clip type), but the two offered for heavy duty carriers ( the two shown here far right) were their only two models offered at 24 tpi.....
> View attachment 1576805



On this page is where I found the front fork that's on my bike. Its the 231 Super Club model. Also the way I figured my bike isn't made of 531. Notice how three other forks on that page are denoted as 531, whereas mine isn't. Still of an early Chro-Mo alloy but not 531. I cant see a company putting a non-531 fork on a 531 frame if it was available so....
Bobs your Uncle.
We also had a bike show up a while back with questions as to its maker that was sporting that #270 Philrace fork. The Oval cut in the head cap is Phillips mark for the Philrace fork I guess. They were also selling Philrace frames and perhaps that was a Phillips kit bike.
Knowing that Phillips made bike kits and specialty racing fitments separately we have to imagine we will run across a few of them as time lingers.
All of these companies playing off each other in the 20's through the 50's, and bunched together in B-ham the way they were, makes for a distinctive Birmingham "style" of bike.

It seems to me that Hercules bikes fall in to this category also and the unusual head arrangement and flair of the bars, sets Jimbo's bike apart.
In the old days, a manufacturers best, most stylish and just plain coolest items were generally intended for domestic consumption. That was definitely one of their higher end export offerings.
The more I look at it the more I like it.


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