# 1950’s German-raced track bike



## tacochris (Sep 8, 2020)

Ok so its not much of a “bike” at the moment but still a hell of a piece of history so I wanted to share it. 
This is a French-made true brakeless track bike raced by a the Radebeul Germany team some time in the late 50’s into the early 60’s. Aside from the original paint and hand-painted graphics the coolest parts of this frame-set are the rider and team name painted on the top tube and the modified Nervex lugs. 
 Im gonna have to sell my soul to build this thing up but i want to build it right.  Original running gear was said to be inch-pitch so it will be fun to gather all that together.
I saved this bike from being a bar-hopping hipster fixie....
Enjoy...


----------



## juvela (Sep 8, 2020)

-----

Thanks very much for posting - wonderful item!   

8-0-8 is one of the many tubesets from Ateliers de La Rive.

The NERVEX shell exhibits nozzle cuts 158 - 159


-----


----------



## tacochris (Sep 8, 2020)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Thanks very much for posting - wonderful item!
> 
> ...



Hey thanks for responding!  Ive had alot of trouble gaining information on this frame-set so its been alot of investigating and searching and talking to experts.  Any info i get on the details is always awesome!


----------



## juvela (Sep 8, 2020)

-----

suspect that the modified frame lugs may have been created from a BOCAMA pattern rather than a NERVEX one, but have not as yet identified it.  only at maybe at present.

-----


----------



## tacochris (Sep 8, 2020)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> suspect that the modified frame lugs may have been created from a BOCAMA pattern rather than a NERVEX one, but have not as yet identified it.  only at maybe at present.
> 
> -----



Even if the bottom bracket is stamped NERVEX?


----------



## juvela (Sep 8, 2020)

-----

nothing unusual about mixing frame bits...

think of all the millions of machines produced with BOCAMA or NERVEX lug sets which exhibit VAGNER crowns, even though both BOCAMA and NERVEX made crowns of their own,...and perhaps a shell from RGF, EDA or other maker...

imagine a builder independent minded enough to modify lugs - they would certainly think nothing of mixing frame bits  

-----


----------



## tacochris (Sep 8, 2020)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> nothing unusual about mixing frame bits...
> 
> ...



Thats really cool man, i appreciate you dropping some knowledge on the thread.  Always like being able to put together more on the background of the frame-set.


----------



## JLF (Sep 8, 2020)

A cool piece of history.  Imagine the watts that have been put through that frame on the track.


----------



## jimbo53 (Sep 9, 2020)

Wonder if this could be the "Schreiber" painted on the top tube?

*Bernd Schreiber* (born 19 September 1948 in Berlin) is a former German cyclist.

*SPORTING CAREER*
Schreiber has been active in cycling since 1962. At the 1966 East German Championships of Youth Class A, he won both the title in the single-pursuit and in the team pursuit. He won two titles in the children's and youth division races. He started for SC Dynamo Berlin. His coach in the youth classes was Peter Becker, who later also coached Jan Ullrich.

Schreiber became East German champion in team pursuit in 1967, 1968 and 1970 (among others with Heinz Richter, who was also a member of the foursome at all three championships). In 1969, he and his team finished second in the championship. In the same year he was called up to the national team of the GDR and started at the UCI Track World Championships in team pursuit, with his team finishing 5th. His best result in the single pursuit at the GDR championships was the fifth place in 1969. In 1971 he ended his competitive sports career.

*PROFESSIONAL*
After his career Schreiber opened a bicycle shop in Birkenwerder near Berlin.


----------



## tacochris (Sep 9, 2020)

jimbo53 said:


> Wonder if this could be the "Schreiber" painted on the top tube?
> 
> *Bernd Schreiber* (born 19 September 1948 in Berlin) is a former German cyclist.
> 
> ...



Good eye Mr Jimbo!  
Funny enough, im a research hound and in the weeks following getting this frame-set I researched until my eyes bled and spoke to museums etc and i came back with the same possible racer!  I studied his racing carrier but never found any mention of the Radebeul Germany team.  So my only real conclusion i could come up with is that if this is in fact the right guy, this bike predates his documented racing carrier.  So i basically only have the match of his last name and country or racing origin.
 I have considered locating the bike shop and emailing him pictures of the frame and writing to see but just never got around to it.


----------



## Cooper S. (Sep 9, 2020)

Man Id kill for that bike, so I could take it bar hopping


----------



## tacochris (Sep 9, 2020)

Cooper S. said:


> Man i.d. kill for that bike, so I could take it bar hopping



Lol!  I swear, in Houston, had I not gotten to it when i did, it would have ended up covered in stickers with carbon fiber spoke wheels.  I cant wait to return it to its original pedigree...


----------



## Cooper S. (Sep 10, 2020)

tacochris said:


> Lol!  I swear, in Houston, had I not gotten to it when i did, it would have ended up covered in stickers with carbon fiber spoke wheels.  I cant wait to return it to its original pedigree...



I totally don’t have a former track racer with newer parts...


----------



## tacochris (Sep 10, 2020)

Cooper S. said:


> I totally don’t have a former track racer with newer parts...



Its fine for other folks.....just not me.  Im in love with old, correct parts, always have been and wrong parts eat at me too much.


----------



## jimbo53 (Sep 15, 2020)

tacochris said:


> Its fine for other folks.....just not me.  Im in love with old, correct parts, always have been and wrong parts eat at me too much.



Totally agree. From my perspective we are archivist / curators of these bikes and are tasked to tell it’s story by careful research and correct mechanical restoration, maintaining the originality and patina as much as possible. Looking forward to seeing your future development on this bike. The time and effort will be a labor of love


----------



## tacochris (Sep 15, 2020)

jimbo53 said:


> Totally agree. From my perspective we are archivist / curators of these bikes and are tasked to tell it’s story by careful research and correct mechanical restoration, maintaining the originality and patina as much as possible. Looking forward to seeing your future development on this bike. The time and effort will be a labor of love




Every single one of my project bikes would be done this week if I just threw parts at em until they were road worthy, but road worthy isn’t the entire reason I do what I do.  There is something so immensely satisfying about searching to the ends of the earth to find the correct part with the correct finish for a bike.  I think it’s a drive that is from my soul because its certainly not monetary judging by how much money I invest trying to make a bike correct.  The same reason I generally wont even buy or take on a bike that isn’t original finish because to me its like piecing together a snapshot from history, a little carved out piece of an era that will never come back and once a bike has been destroyed to that point, the history is there in its bones, but the words are gone off of the pages and it feels like a great historian who’s developed dementia and forgotten all the amazing things he’s seen.  Its about the bikes, and cruising (and I do a ton of that), but its so much more than that to me, its archeology.  There is just something so perfect I cant explain about the feel of an old grip, or the squeak of an old saddle, the slight hesitation of an old New Departure hub or the faint rattle of an original fender…..its pure satisfaction.  The real true history of this bike is lost to time with all its original parts, but I can give it dignity again.


----------



## Kombicol (Sep 15, 2020)

Not everyone in Houston would have turned it into a bar hopper. There are a few cabers around town. Bars are all closed now anyway.
Seriously thought, great looking  frame. 
Was it a CL score?
What’s your component plan? 
What’s the threading French? Italian? Swiss?


----------



## tacochris (Sep 15, 2020)

Kombicol said:


> Not everyone in Houston would have turned it into a bar hopper. There are a few cabers around town. Bars are all closed now anyway.
> Seriously thought, great looking  frame.
> Was it a CL score?
> What’s your component plan?
> What’s the threading French? Italian? Swiss?




Maybe not everyone but the chances are way too high. Been here 40 years and ive met very few (vocal at least) guys who appreciate originality. 
It was actually a facebook marketplace ad for a really decent dude who was clearing out his storage unit. 
 Well the component plan right now is honestly just fuzzy and tentative as im doing more and more research to see what would be era/geographically correct and learning.  Ide like to go with Titan for the bars/stem, Fiamme for the hoops and possibly Campi for the hubs but im open to ideas as long as theyre correct.  The bottom bracket is french threaded so that is one thing i need to locate first honestly.  Seat is really up in the air at the moment and will probably be last.


----------



## jimbo53 (Sep 16, 2020)

tacochris said:


> Every single one of my project bikes would be done this week if I just threw parts at em until they were road worthy, but road worthy isn’t the entire reason I do what I do.  There is something so immensely satisfying about searching to the ends of the earth to find the correct part with the correct finish for a bike.  I think it’s a drive that is from my soul because its certainly not monetary judging by how much money I invest trying to make a bike correct.  The same reason I generally wont even buy or take on a bike that isn’t original finish because to me its like piecing together a snapshot from history, a little carved out piece of an era that will never come back and once a bike has been destroyed to that point, the history is there in its bones, but the words are gone off of the pages and it feels like a great historian who’s developed dementia and forgotten all the amazing things he’s seen.  Its about the bikes, and cruising (and I do a ton of that), but its so much more than that to me, its archeology.  There is just something so perfect I cant explain about the feel of an old grip, or the squeak of an old saddle, the slight hesitation of an old New Departure hub or the faint rattle of an original fender…..its pure satisfaction.  The real true history of this bike is lost to time with all its original parts, but I can give it dignity again.



     Your last sentence," The real true history of this bike is lost to time with all its original parts, but I can give it dignity again" is in essence what I try to do with all my bike reclamations: give them dignity with a careful curated approach of understanding the history, how it left the factory, and bringing all mechanicals to an optimal state of function while maintaining original paint and patina.  It does become a labor of love as corny as that might sound to a non-vintage bike person.     
     Currently, my efforts have gone in the direction of vintage British roadsters, a type of bike guaranteed to never realize a profit from my time and money spent, but in a perverse way, that makes it all the more important to me. Knowing that the market for these bikes is so minuscule as to be non-existent compared to vintage American balloon tire bikes, forces me to choose carefully the bikes I'll work on, because I know I'll have them for a long time. With a three speed internal hub and higher pressure tires, they are a much better mode of transportation than my balloon tire bikes. Don't get me wrong; i have had many pre-war balloon tire bikes and will always love them, but the mechanical advantages of the British roadster bikes cannot be overlooked as all my bikes are riders. The fact that they are orphans in most of the bike collecting community draws me to them all the more.


----------



## juvela (Sep 29, 2020)

-----

a spot o' progress...

correction:

tube set not from Ateliers de La Rive

several of their sets include the number 888 in their titles so i mistakenly thought 808 must be one of theirs...

here is a GEFFAC (export group) listing for Ateliers de La Rive tubesets ca. 1976





the Swedish flag on the frame's tubing transfer was a clue ignored  

have inquired with an expert on Swedish cycles and cycling for information.  he reports tube name unknown to him but has promised to investigate further...

---

possible identification -

the distributor for 808 frame tubing in france was a frame producer based in St. Etienne (centre of the French cycle industry) called Sterling.

here is an advert from them dated 1929 -





here is an advert from them for the 808 frame tubing dated 1949 -





here is a randonneur cycle built with 808 tubing by Sterling and dated by its owner as "1940's"  -














here is a Sterling berceau also constructed of 808 and dated 1947.  note how the lug in the image has been customized into the distinctive two-prong pattern also seen on the subject frame.  this seems to have been a trademark of the manufacturer...








also have a third Sterling frame built of 808 to post but must make a separate message due to picture limits...

-----


----------



## tacochris (Sep 29, 2020)

Wow, I didnt realize you kept digging on this one but obviously you may have dug up some info thats pretty compelling!  The bike you posted above is the first one ive seen that has the split lugs like mine and the same exact sticker as mine in regards to the 808 Tubes.  Makes me wonder if there is any way to tie down exactly what era this frame set is from.....ive been told by a few museum folks its possibly 50’s but we really dont know seeing as there is no date and no components to narrow things down at all.


----------



## juvela (Sep 29, 2020)

-----

This cycle is of unknown marque yet clearly a Stirling product.  It is constructed of the 808 tubeset and wears the proprietary Stirling lug pattern with the two prongs.  Crown appears to have been created by modifying a Vagner model PL+.










Stirling lug and crown illustration ca. 1950 -





Stirling advert ca. 1950 -






-----


----------



## juvela (Sep 30, 2020)

-----

Stirling is associated with the marque Oreol.

Do not as yet know if this name is owned by them or if it represents contract work.

Either way there are Oreol badged cycles built by Stirling.

---

"Le Super" bicycle constructed of 808 tubing and made with the customized Stirling lugs and crown.  Dated by its owner as "early 1950's."





in this image we can see part of the 808 transfer -





this view provides a look at the distinctive Stirling lugs & crown as well as the machine's head emblem -





following completed restoration -





-----


----------

