# Iver Johnson serial number question



## gtdohn (Oct 25, 2013)

I have an old Iver Johnson with the serial number up at the top of the seat post. It is L73161
Ant ideas of its year?

Thanks


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Oct 25, 2013)

That may be around 1941.


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## gtdohn (Oct 25, 2013)

In 1941, did they still use the Motobike style frame. This one has the double top tube, but the lower tube is smaller in diameter than the top one. Also, the headbadge is riveted onto the head tube. It has Persons Supreme pedals and Torrington bars, does that sound correct as well? It has 28" rims and tires too.

Thanks


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Oct 25, 2013)

Rivets were used at the end of production.
A picture is worth a thousand words!


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## gtdohn (Oct 25, 2013)

yeah, I am working on that and will probably get one posted tomorrow.


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Oct 25, 2013)

Hell! Just pedal over to Alameda and I will appraise it. :^)


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## gtdohn (Oct 26, 2013)

I truly wish I had time to do that. Here are some photos for now. Let me know what you think.
ThanksView attachment 119624View attachment 119625View attachment 119626View attachment 119627


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## Handyman (Oct 26, 2013)

*Iver*

That's going to be one great looking Iver.........................Keep us posted with pics


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Oct 26, 2013)

Are you sure that that is an L and not a 6?


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Oct 26, 2013)

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A quick trip to the Wheelmen site provided quite a bit of Iver Johnson serial number information. Bill Smith appears to have studied the firm and the bicycles at length and has built a serial number model chart, which he uses to project build dates for the bikes. While he has answered questions about dating individual bike he has not published an overall list as, in his words, he is constantly fine-tuning his model as more information comes in. 

My observation has been that as far back as any Iver Johnson recorded serial numbers have been reported, it appears that the bicycles were numbered in a simple progressive arithmetic-sequencing pattern. If this is true then any bike’s build date can be projected by where it falls between two other known and dated bikes. Obviously the closer together those bikes are the more accurate the projection will be.

From the numbers that have been queried and responded to by Mr. Smith, it is relatively easy to build a model and to project where the major serial number breaks occur (i.e. 100,000 200,000 etc.) From the few data point we have it is a best practice to build the model against a curve based on the generally known characteristics of annual U.S. bike production and consumption until we reach the later years where Iver was definitely loosing ground. 

In the Wheelman texts I scanned, the highest Iver serial number mentioned was 608722.
As I noted earlier and elsewhere, locating the earliest serialed Balloon Iver will give us a relatively clear reading of how many units were produced after 1933/34 and before 1942.

As Mr. Smith is loath to publish his model, I don’t want to step on any toes by suggesting we build a model here; but if the desire for a chart produces one it will just be a second model from which to draw references. So, in general, I still believe it would behoove us here to record numbers against bikes but it is also true that a quick, accurate and specific answer is probably available from the horse’s mouth.


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## gtdohn (Oct 26, 2013)

My mistake. I took a better look at the serial number and the first character is a  4 not L


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Oct 26, 2013)

RMS37  
I live for the CABE

Join Date
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 Iver Johnson production dates by serial number
Iver Johnson production dates by serial number

Based solely on data collected from Bill Smith’s posts on the Wheelmen webpage I have constructed a timeline for Iver Johnson serial numbers. Among the postings on that site, Mr. Smith identified the year of manufacture for several Iver Johnson bicycles based on their serial numbers. I have used those posted serial numbers/dates to infer the serial number breaks at 100,000 unit intervals. Please understand that this is an approximation of where those breaks might occur and use this information as it was intended, that is to give a very basic model to help attribute an Iver to roughly the decade it was built in and not to date any bike to the actual year of construction. If you desire to date a bike more closely, Mr Smith has provided contact information on the Wheelmen site and seems to be very helpful with regard to dating individual bikes based on his collected data. I’m sure additional information he might receive from our inquiries will also help add to his model and its accuracy. 

Mr. Smith relates the early history of the Iver Johnson company and gives 1890 as the year for the beginning of bicycle production. From that point through 1896, Iver Johnson constructed bicycles for the Lovell Diamond company. In 1896, the Iver Johnson company first began building bicycles under their own name and in 1900 the absorbed the remains of the Lovell Diamond company and began branding their production under both names.

It appears that the serial numbers were stamped and recorded in a simple numeric progression over the years, assumedly beginning with 1 and ending at around 610,000 in 1941 or early 1942. It is not clear if “Old No. 1” should be attributed to 1890 or 1896 but enough data is published on the Wheelman site to make the following generalizations.

The 100,000th bicycle was probably laid down just after the turn of the century. The bicycle market was very volatile in the first few years of the twentieth century so simply apportioning production between two serial numbers gives 1904 as the 100,000 break but in reality production during this time period as during any other could vary from year to year by a substantial amount due to general economic conditions or decisions made at the factory. Considering the data points available from this time period I would think the accuracy on this break is about plus or minus two years.

The 200,000th bicycle, again determined by apportioning production evenly over a five-year gap, would have been produced during 1912.

The 300,000th bicycle would have been produced in 1916 or 1917; Bill’s data links the serial number 292617 to 1916

The 400,000th bicycle produced should fall between 1923 and 1924. This is the largest gap in numbers and the date was arrived at by simply dividing the period between my placement of 300,000 and 500,000 in two.

The 500,000th bicycle was likely made during 1930 or 1931 as Bill has listed 505785 and 505,768 as being part of the production for 1931.

I used 610,000 at the end of the line for production considering several bits of information. That would place the 600,000th bike near the beginning of 1941.

My main interest has become bicycle manufacturers and production during the prewar Balloon era. To that end, and again by simple division of estimated Iver Johnson production over the period of 1930 through early 1942, The earliest Balloon tired Iver Johnsons should clock in around 530,000 and the annual production between 1933 and the end of Iver Johnson production would be around 9,000 to 10,000 unit per year if the bikes were produced at an even rate during that time.


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## gtdohn (Oct 26, 2013)

So it would be safe to say 20s?


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Oct 26, 2013)

The riveted head-badge has me perplexed.
Can you post a good image of that with plenty of lighting?
Is there a patent pending on the bottom of the badge.
This would make it made after 1921.
Does anyone know when the badges were riveted on?


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## dfa242 (Oct 26, 2013)

The badges on each of my Ivers are fixed with screws - I'm not sure when they may have been riveted.


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## gtdohn (Oct 26, 2013)

Here are some shots of the badge. It does seem to say something about a "PAT" at the bottom

View attachment 119659View attachment 119660View attachment 119661


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Oct 26, 2013)

PAT is abbreviated. This indicates that it was made after 1921 but the rivets say 1940's.


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## gtdohn (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, thanks very much for your help, but I think I will have to post it in the FS section as Unknown year. I don't want to mislead anyone.
Thanks again.


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