# Restore vs Original??



## Gary Meneghin (Aug 20, 2013)

All 

I am posting this to get a variety of opinions on the restore or leave original question. Many CABE members seems to strongly feel that restoring a bike reduces its value. My experience is just the opposite. I have restored 9 bikes in the last 3 years and they have all sold for much more than they would have in original condition. Also many CABE members refer to rusted, dented and scratched up bikes as having "patina".   Rust is NOT patina - it is corrosion  and decomposition of the metal. 

I would be interested in hearing different perspectives on this question - I am clearly in the restore it camp. Did you ever see an original condition car take Best of Show at a car show??  Never will happen.

Interested in hearing your point of view

GARY


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## OldRider (Aug 20, 2013)

Comparing cars to bikes is apples and oranges, no comparison in the two. A bike is only new once.....those dings, dents and scratches that you see tell the story of the bike, leave it be


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## bike (Aug 20, 2013)

*Pebble beach*

added classes some years ago for og cars.
I have a degree in auto restoration from http://www.mcpherson.edu/autorestoration/about.php I like correctly restored bikes and plan to own ONE- I like the look of old used it tells the story and has character - looking at a bunch of restored cars bikes toys - hey they could have been made yesterday and that is ok good design.
10+ years ago I saw a man pay 4800 cash for a sky king trike in perfect nos condtion- now you can buy one for ~249 looks the same- but one with 70 years of love has a lot of character.


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## Talewinds (Aug 20, 2013)

Gary Meneghin said:


> All
> 
> I am posting this to get a variety of opinions on the restore or leave original question. Many CABE members seems to strongly feel that restoring a bike reduces its value. My experience is just the opposite. I have restored 9 bikes in the last 3 years and they have all sold for much more than they would have in original condition. Also many CABE members refer to rusted, dented and scratched up bikes as having "patina".   Rust is NOT patina - it is corrosion  and decomposition of the metal.
> 
> ...




Not this again. Restored bikes are bringing nowhere near the value of GOOD condition originals. That high value that folks placed in those "epic" restorations is so 20 years ago. Maybe the trend will come back around someday, but it ain't today, and it ain't gonna be for quite a while. This DOES hold true for the bicycle market, motorcycle market, and automobile market.
Patina, which is exactly that, a combination of oxidation, dirt, and yes, occasional corrosion is so prized these days because it delivers what the restored bikes and cars never will again, authenticity.
I love restored bikes and have respect for, and appreciation of the labor and efforts that go into them, but when it's all said and done they're just a facsimile.


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## stoney (Aug 20, 2013)

I believe when a bike is really rusty and you don't see much paint, it is a good thing to restore if the person really likes the bike. I agree patina is not pitted corroded metal. Patina to me is original finish paint. Maybe some scratches and some dents is okay. Old worn dull, either left dull paint or correctly cleaned paint is patina. Old worn chrome, worn to the bare metal is patina. Right now there are a few bikes on Ebay that are real nice original examples. Nice paint, pretty nice chrome. To me if you had the same bike side by side----one totally restored to a 10 and the other a real nice original in all respects-----the original bike is the winner. It is telling you it's life, it's travels, it's bangs and bumps and an idea about the people who owned and loved that bike. This goes for cars, trucks, motorcycles, bicycles-----hell it could be a well cared for watch. My opinion, agree or disagree but I do like originality.


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## Freqman1 (Aug 20, 2013)

Gary,
    We've got into some heated discussions on here and about beat this one to death. From what I saw the guys that restore bikes for a living are going to say a restored bike is worth more. As a serious collector I'll take an original over restored any day. That said I have restored and am restoring some bikes as I write this. My experience is unless you can do this yourself you will quickly get upside down unless its a valuable bike e.g. > $3k. V/r Shawn


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## bikesnbuses (Aug 20, 2013)

Freqman1 said:


> Gary,
> We've got into some heated discussions on here and about beat this one to death. From what I saw the guys that restore bikes for a living are going to say a restored bike is worth more. As a serious collector I'll take an original over restored any day. That said I have restored and am restoring some bikes as I write this. My experience is unless you can do this yourself you will quickly get upside down unless its a valuable bike e.g. > $3k. V/r Shawn




Ditto...Unless your bike was free or close to it  still even then you will have spent 3K to have a 3K bike(or less)..I just bought a 1961 VW single cab with original paint and the guy I bought it from redid EVERYTHING but the paint  ,he owned it for a little while,put about 1300 miles on it and then sold it to me...for what he had in reciepts alone,NOT including the truck purchase price or his labor! Still wasnt cheap (Ask my wife  )...Point of this?It doesnt matter if its a car,boat,motorcycle or bicycle....Unless ,you can do everything yourself and/or get it really cheap,or if it has a personal sentimental meaning to you..youre most likely to lose money when you do sell...


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## jacdan98 (Aug 20, 2013)

What about if the bike paint is all OG but the tank is repainted what would this bike fall under?

jack


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## Gary Mc (Aug 20, 2013)

stoney said:


> I believe when a bike is really rusty and you don't see much paint, it is a good thing to restore if the person really likes the bike. I agree patina is not pitted corroded metal. Patina to me is original finish paint. Maybe some scratches and some dents is okay. Old worn dull, either left dull paint or correctly cleaned paint is patina. Old worn chrome, worn to the bare metal is patina. Right now there are a few bikes on Ebay that are real nice original examples. Nice paint, pretty nice chrome. To me if you had the same bike side by side----one totally restored to a 10 and the other a real nice original in all respects-----the original bike out the winner. It is telling you it's life, it's travels, it's bangs and bumps and an idea about the people who owned and loved that bike. This goes for cars, trucks, motorcycles, bicycles-----hell it could be a well cared for watch. My opinion, agree or disagree but I do like originality.




I agree with stoney completely.


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## RJWess (Aug 20, 2013)

I have seen some of the bikes Gary has done. I imagine he is getting back every dime that he has put in these bikes and then some. For me I like both restored and original bikes. But with some of the more scarce bikes like a Safety Streamline and others you take what you can get. 







Nice Job Gary...


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## Balloontyre (Aug 20, 2013)

Patina over restored all day long. But hey its your bike.


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## redline1968 (Aug 20, 2013)

every time i look at this bike i want to kick it and throw it to the curb.  a painted pile of junk that has no right to be shown. who could have resored this? what a shame...


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## bobcycles (Aug 20, 2013)

Condition is everything.  Nice original un altered bikes are the best....Those on the upper end of the 1-10 spectrum.  A bicycle is only original once...as is anything.   The thing about restorations is ....some bikes are worth the expense to restore, some aren't.   I have turned down restoration work because the bike was too nice of a survivor to beadblast, paint and rechrome.
I would take an 8-10 condition original ANY day of the week over a restored bike regardless of who restored it.
my 2 cents


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## eddie bravo (Aug 20, 2013)

Both are great and of course what is the purpose of your bike??
If its a display and bike show competition piece ,i would go restore,  nothing like Bright shiny paint and chrome on a sunny day

But to ride AND display original hands down.  Yet when there is over loss of character such as total paint loss , chrome is shot to bare metal,  you must ask ,  what do i really want out of this bike and as mentioned .  Is there really a return on the restore investment or is it personal enjoyment of ownership.  But personal preference will always vary on the same bike with three collectors looking at the same piece at the same time.


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## momona (Aug 20, 2013)

Me personally, if I'm laying some serious money down on a bike purchase--- restored bikes will not even be an option, save for a select few.  If it is not original PAINT at least, I don't want it.

I see this at the bike shows, and car shows as well--- people like to LOOK at restored things, but Would rather BUY original. --- which is why you see a lot of the cross bred restorations--- where bikes/cars are "restored" but then aged, scratched, stained... To give it that patina'd look. 

Patina sells.  New.... Well... Looks NEW!


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## decotriumph (Aug 20, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> every time i look at this bike i want to kick it and throw it to the curb.  a painted pile of junk that has no right to be shown. who could have resored this? what a shame...




How about you ROLL it to the curb gently and let me know when. I'll come by and haul it away for you.


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## redline1968 (Aug 20, 2013)

decotriumph said:


> How about you ROLL it to the curb gently and let me know when. I'll come by and haul it away for you.




:0 .....  after i beat it up and then give it to those RUST HUGGERS to scrifice it too their rust idols. if there is anything left possibly. also owning restored things should be outlawed and sent away to the RUST HUGGERS SO THEY CAN USE IT AS  A EXAMPLE.


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## mike j (Aug 20, 2013)

*Restore vs. Original*

I know that I'm still just a " lil knee scupper" but i have to add my two cents. Stoney has a good point, I'd like to add that the bike will sometimes tell you where to go. If, for instance, it's been painted over, badly several times, so that any originality has been obliterated , the choice is obvious. But it then gets a little grayer. Patina, I believe is like cholesterol, there's good and bad. The years of wear from use , fun, and time, as opposed to the hard core, in your face, battery acid residue, just been dragged out of the river by the sheriff's patrol patina. Add to the mix, without being too sexist or stereotypical, I think that the girls appreciate patina as a whole less than the boys. Girls kept their bikes much nicer than the boys. Sometime you have to take time to think, what is this best course for this individual. These bikes are unique pieces of this country's history and , I think, are sculptures that actually work for a living.


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## stoney (Aug 20, 2013)

jacdan98 said:


> What about if the bike paint is all OG but the tank is repainted what would this bike fall under?
> 
> jack




I would still call this bike a survivor. I have no problem with slight blend ins. If you are having the tank painted, or any other part, try to have someone paint the part to match the rest of the paint on the bikes age. There are people who can. I see it in the antique motorcycle world. People put a premium on original paint, and rightfully so. I do not condemn restored bikes, nicely done I think they are great. There are people in the antique motorcycle world who have the talent and the knowledge of how to make new paint look original as well as the rest of the finishes. Some take monetary advantage of the disguise with the unknowing buyer. Knowingly screwing the cash out of the buyer. As always BUYER BEWARE.


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## stoney (Aug 20, 2013)

Here we are again, on Ebay now. Another nice original patina bike. Columbia Blackhawk, Falcon. I am no expert on anything. Looks honest and has a life story. Nothing hiding under new chrome and paint.  I LIKE IT.


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## redline1968 (Aug 20, 2013)

stoney said:


> i would still call this bike a survivor. I have no problem with slight blend ins. If you are having the tank painted, or any other part, try to have someone paint the part to match the rest of the paint on the bikes age. There are people who can. I see it in the antique motorcycle world. People put a premium on original paint, and rightfully so. I do not condemn restored bikes, nicely done i think they are great. There are people in the antique motorcycle world who have the talent and the knowledge of how to make new paint look original as well as the rest of the finishes. Some take monetary advantage of the disguise with the unknowing buyer. Knowingly screwing the cash out of the buyer. As always buyer beware.




restore a part change a part and its restored....  Who is fooling who?  Resto on any part is a resto not original. Even if its to look old. Its a resto and not conforming to the  idea of original patina..


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## old hotrod (Aug 20, 2013)

Gary Meneghin said:


> All
> Did you ever see an original condition car take Best of Show at a car show??  Never will happen.
> Interested in hearing your point of view
> GARY




Why do you compare a "car show" to the bike collecting hobby? It is like comparing an apple to a brick...and while your prime examples of restored bikes may have got you more money, (i.e. the beautiful Bluebird pictured) for the other 99 percent of the hobby that don't own such high end bikes, you are the exception not the rule. Plus there is the return on investment...how many of us have purchased restored bikes, parts or projects for a fraction of the money spent on them? I personally have bought several and made out pretty well. People restore a bike, put it on display, grow tired of it or pass away and off it goes.
And speaking of car shows, I went to the birthday party for the 32 Ford at the Petersen Museum...I got to see some of the absolute best examples of every type of niche of the hot rod market glorifying the 32 Ford...and you want to know where the crowd was? Where the largest, most enthusiastic, appreciative group of happy people were? Looking at this original paint, barn find cobwebs and all...all day there was a crowd around it...


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## 2jakes (Aug 20, 2013)

Gary Meneghin said:


> All
> 
> I am posting this to get a variety of opinions on the restore or leave original question. Many CABE members seems to strongly feel that restoring a bike reduces its value. My experience is just the opposite. I have restored 9 bikes in the last 3 years and they have all sold for much more than they would have in original condition. Also many CABE members refer to rusted, dented and scratched up bikes as having "patina".   Rust is NOT patina - it is corrosion  and decomposition of the metal.
> 
> ...






 I want to believe that you are sincerely interested in the point of view of CABE members.

 At the same time you say "many CABE members refer to rusted, dented & scratched up
bikes as having "patina". Rust is NOT patina !


Wow...please tell us when you climbed the mountain &  were given the tablets to proclaim
to us all how it should be because we are so ignorant that we don't know the differences ?

Doesn't speak well for the "restore it camp " folks...:o


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## redline1968 (Aug 20, 2013)

i say RUST HUGGERS UNITE!!!!!!


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## THE STIG (Aug 20, 2013)

Original .  

It's only original once,, can be restored many times ..


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## rustjunkie (Aug 20, 2013)

To each his own but since you asked: I have owned both, and for me, a restored anything has had it's story erased, history wiped clean. What's left is a sanitized object, lacking a certain context and character.


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## slick (Aug 20, 2013)

I think the better question at hand is this: Am I a Dealer or a Collector?  

Dealers want the $$$ and could give a poop less about anyone they insult or what type of history they destroy in the hobby itself. Collectors want the real deal original item that has NOT been altered or has had a fudgeed up inaccurate restoration which MOST restorations have. Key word MOST! Inaccurate colors, measurements on where the stripes are and parts that should be on the bike that were originally offered in that year.

So what you are asking is: How can i capitalize on this hobby? Buy an original bike that has outstanding ORIGINAL UNALTERED paint for a cheap price and flip it? And when you do that, you better play the lotto too because the odds of that happening are a BIG ZERO!

I am personally tired of original paint bikes falling into the wrong hands to be restored, falling into the wrong hands to be parted out, and just plain tired of the bikes that are locked away in collections that we will never see until the estate is up for grabs. Call me what you will but guys like me keep this hobby alive by rescuing these bikes from hackers, restorers, parters,and riding them on a regular basis. RANT OVER!


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## Real Steel (Aug 20, 2013)

Old cars are just like old bikes.  They have the same following of people, and they both fluctuate in value with the economy, and they are both dominated (now) by the 'keep it original' line of thinking.

I like my old bikes the same as my old cars...original, untouched, honest, and American.

1925 Dodge Brothers Roadster (my real barn find).  
Got Made in USA?


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Aug 20, 2013)

Well poop.. Better trash this thing then..guess its not  cool....


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## fordmike65 (Aug 20, 2013)

fatbar said:


> Well poop.. Better trash this thing then..guess its not  cool....
> View attachment 109958




Well....looks like its already in the recycling bin on the curb waiting for the scrap guy. Just saying...

Jk.Looks great.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Aug 20, 2013)

fatbar said:


> Well poop.. Better trash this thing then..guess its not  cool....
> View attachment 109958




I saved this frame from being a goddamn bmx bike. Then Bob did his magic. Its fun finding the parts for a resto!.. Tracking down elusive parts blah blah... How many can say that their bike is 100% og?.. A handful. You have no way of knowing the complete history on anything...im tired of this restored bikes suck... I wanted to give ol Brownie a new life. I wanted it to look like it did when first purchased in 1946. I want to put the dents in it. I want to scratch it. I want to put my history in it cause is my goddamn bike and its the first Schwinn I ever owned. When your heavily patina rust bucket finally decomposes, mine will still have many many years left... Don't get me wrong, I like og all day long. But rust and dented to poop history is not from a loving owner, more from an owner that abused it and that soul isn't a happy one. The soul doesn't disappear, you have just added to it, to that bikes history. You trying to tell me the golden gate bridge has no soul just cause it gets fresh coats of paint time to time?.. Some need restoring some don't


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Aug 20, 2013)

fordmike65 said:


> Well....looks like its already in the recycling bin on the curb waiting for the scrap guy. Just saying...
> 
> Jk.Looks great.




Haha I just noticed that!...


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## ThegoodThebad&Therusty (Aug 20, 2013)

*"Did you ever see an original condition car take Best of Show at a car show?? Never will happen."
*

I beg to differ, "car shows" are all different, but when it comes to resale value, unrestored originality trumps restored "replicas" with re-pop parts all day long. Case in point -

How bout an unrestored survivor 69 Mustang with only 902 miles selling for $550.000 dollars ...

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=CA0813-161271

No custom restomod irregardless of build cost even came close !!!

pap
.


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## okozzy (Aug 20, 2013)

*Restored vs Original?*

I don't even know why you're asking the question, sounds like your mind is pretty well made up. A bike that has withstood the test of time has character, IT HAS A SOUL in my opinion... you can't say that about a restored bike, my .02cents.



Gary Meneghin said:


> All
> 
> I am posting this to get a variety of opinions on the restore or leave original question. Many CABE members seems to strongly feel that restoring a bike reduces its value. My experience is just the opposite. I have restored 9 bikes in the last 3 years and they have all sold for much more than they would have in original condition. Also many CABE members refer to rusted, dented and scratched up bikes as having "patina".   Rust is NOT patina - it is corrosion  and decomposition of the metal.
> 
> ...


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## Larmo63 (Aug 20, 2013)

If a bike's originality is too far gone and it is worth restoring, (and by who's criteria?) I say restore 

it. I currently have two bikes under restoration, and I feel that they are/were BOTH worth the time, 

money, and, thought that goes into such an endeavor. That said, I prefer original bikes, by FAR, and 

I have those too. My '35 Schwinn will be a "survivor" someday, and I hope somebody will value the 

accurate and loving restorations I tried to do in 2012-2013.


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## old hotrod (Aug 20, 2013)

fatbar said:


> im tired of this restored bikes suck...




Nobody said anything about restored bikes sucking...this whole thread is only a matter of preference/opinion...and I am glad you saved a classic good for you...if you're happy that is all that matters...


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## vincev (Aug 20, 2013)

Gary Meneghin said:


> All
> 
> . Did you ever see an original condition car take Best of Show at a car show??  Never will happen.
> 
> ...


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## MrColumbia (Aug 21, 2013)

Ok, I guess I'll jump in and stir the pot with everyone else.

  I started in this hobby by way of Whizzers 30+ years ago. We would have never dreamed of showing a rusted, dented or otherwise unrestored Whizzer at a show. At least back then we wouldn't have. Like Automobiles they are motor driven vehicles and need to be mechanically sound. Restoring made sense to us. We wanted to ride them, not worship the rust and "history of dings and dents" on them. 

 The whole _balloon tire bicycle _collecting hobby came out of the early Whizzer hobby. We treated the motorless bikes the same way we treated the Whizzers.  In the past 20 years attitudes have changes towards restorations. The idea of showing a restoration was to show ones skill at all the trades involved in the restoration and then receive recognition for it. It was more about the restorer than about the bike or it's history.

  Now the hobby has taken on more of a historical approach to collecting bikes. The emphasis is on what is historically correct and factory original more than it is on how shiny the bike is. The hobby has changed (for the better, I think) and I have changed with it. I have restored my share of bikes but would hesitate to ever do it again.

   Now for the rust vs. patina and it's only original once b.s. section of my tirade. Yes, it is only original once, the day it left the factory all nice and shiny in it's packing materials with *absolutely no *rust, dents, dings or beloved patina! Please stop fooling yourself people. All of those things may tell a story and may give a desired look to an old bike but they are not original by any stretch of the meaning of the word. It is simply utter nonsense to keep repeating the idea. 

   Finally,  I'm willing to bet anyone of you given the chance to get one of your favorite old bikes found still in mint condition as opposed to rusty and dented would take the mint one if they could. It would certainly sell for more money. We take patina because it is what is the most likely when getting old bikes. We have settled on patina as the next best thing so to speak. An now many worship patina as their creator. What an odd bunch we are.


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## bikewhorder (Aug 21, 2013)

*Restoration is like taxidermy.*



MrColumbia said:


> Now for the rust vs. patina and it's only original once b.s. section of my tirade. Yes, it is only original once, the day it left the factory all nice and shiny in it's packing materials with *absolutely no *rust, dents, dings or beloved patina! Please stop fooling yourself people. All of those things may tell a story and may give a desired look to an old bike but they are not original by any stretch of the meaning of the word. It is simply utter nonsense to keep repeating the idea.





   Ugh, I knew you were going to say this Ken, it is a tired topic after all and I've heard your opinion on this before.  I often completely agree with your contributions to this site but this one area that I think your totally wrong.  Rust may not be original to the bike's factory appearance but it is original to the bike.  I think the reason rust and patina have come into style not just in this hobby, but in general, is not so much about originality as is it _authenticity_. And a restored bike loses all traces of this quality. We live in a world now where there is so much phoniness and everything is built with the understanding that it will be obsolete in x number of years that I think people are left with a deep craving for something real, something authentic.
    For me the paint is like the skin of the bike, if your someone who thinks these objects have a soul, you simply can't remove their skin and replace it with a new one and expect the soul to remain intact.  For me the difference between an original bike and a restored one is like the difference between seeing an animal in the wild and looking at the animals in a Cabela's.  Its still interesting but the thrill is gone.


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## bikewhorder (Aug 21, 2013)

Dave Stromberger tried to answer this question here http://www.nostalgic.net/should-i-restore-my-vintage-bicycle but even he got it wrong.  When I read that paragraph about the 30's Mercury where he says " _Obviously, this bike would have no appeal to anyone as-is_"  I was like *WHAT! That bike is perfect!*


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## Flat Tire (Aug 21, 2013)

I like em both!! Its just a matter of opinion folks. I only mess with original bikes and try to get the best condition. But I've seen nice restored bikes I'd love to have! 
Someone has to keep bikes original or the folks who restore them wouldnt know whats correct and whats not....I've had folks tell me this or that is not correct, until I show them an original.....one case in point is this picture of a wheel on one of my bikes. I've never seen a restored bike with the 'Lobdell' stamp, of course only a purist would care I guess. I want to clean the wheels on this bike, but it would come right off, and if I clean around it, then it would look stupid....lol


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## Bicycle Belle (Aug 21, 2013)

I myself like both. I love seeing Nate's meticulous, beautiful restorations of the bikes he has put back together. When bicycles are parted together I much prefer them to be restored. You're not damaging any of the integrity at this point in my opinion. 
When I see an original that has really nice paint (more than 60% there) without being a rust bucket then I say clean it and leave it alone. I don't love rust the way some on here do but maybe that's because I am a woman.
Now that being said, I need to be completely honest here about what I've learned from my time here on the CABE. I am going to say that a VERY large portion of the "complete original" bikes out there are not quite what they seem. Taking parts from another bike to make yours complete negates the originality of said bike for me. I'm not talking about small accessories, but tanks, chainguards, racks, fenders, forks etc. stripped from other true originals don't make your bike original. At that point, why not restore?
I also have to bring up the whole RMS '37 issue (for me it's an issue). I was actually shocked to learn about reproduction tanks and people fabricating the frames. It doesn't bother me that this is done, what bothers me is that it was like some dirty little secret and the first time I had read anything about this since joining the CABE. For me, those bikes are nowhere near original and the reverence I had for that particular model has been diminished. Again, this is not because I have a problem with reproduction parts, but because I feel that it's kind of hush hush.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Aug 21, 2013)

Flat Tire said:


> I like em both!! Its just a matter of opinion folks. I only mess with original bikes and try to get the best condition. But I've seen nice restored bikes I'd love to have!
> Someone has to keep bikes original or the folks who restore them wouldnt know whats correct and whats not....I've had folks tell me this or that is not correct, until I show them an original.....one case in point is this picture of a wheel on one of my bikes. I've never seen a restored bike with the 'Lobdell' stamp, of course only a purist would care I guess. I want to clean the wheels on this bike, but it would come right off, and if I clean around it, then it would look stupid....lol




Yes don't touch that rim!!


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## Freqman1 (Aug 21, 2013)

Bicycle Belle said:


> I myself like both. I love seeing Nate's meticulous, beautiful restorations of the bikes he has put back together. When bicycles are parted together I much prefer them to be restored. You're not damaging any of the integrity at this point in my opinion.
> When I see an original that has really nice paint (more than 60% there) without being a rust bucket then I say clean it and leave it alone. I don't love rust the way some on here do but maybe that's because I am a woman.
> Now that being said, I need to be completely honest here about what I've learned from my time here on the CABE. I am going to say that a VERY large portion of the "complete original" bikes out there are not quite what they seem. Taking parts from another bike to make yours complete negates the originality of said bike for me. I'm not talking about small accessories, but tanks, chainguards, racks, fenders, forks etc. stripped from other true originals don't make your bike original. At that point, why not restore?
> I also have to bring up the whole RMS '37 issue (for me it's an issue). I was actually shocked to learn about reproduction tanks and people fabricating the frames. It doesn't bother me that this is done, what bothers me is that it was like some dirty little secret and the first time I had read anything about this since joining the CABE. For me, those bikes are nowhere near original and the reverence I had for that particular model has been diminished. Again, this is not because I have a problem with reproduction parts, but because I feel that it's kind of hush hush.




Then I guess I shouldn't mention the repo steel Airflo tanks out there! This is where it pays to do your homework and try to get the provenance of the bike. I have a 'converted' Monark full suspension bike that, once painted, you will not be able to distinguish from an original--except there is only one original known to exist! There have been more than a few "sex changes" performed out there--mostly for really rare bikes. I think as long as its kept above board and someone doesn't try to pass it off as a genuine factory offering then I really don't have a problem with 'clones/recreations/conversions/tributes/fakes' or whatever moniker you prefer to use. This is where buying an original, untouched bike pays off. This seems to be getting a little more difficult with some of the 'distressed restos' out there and people adding parts to make a bike more desirable and then not mentioning this when selling--a lot of pre-war Schwinns fall into this category but you also see it with the Elgin Twin 20s and others as well. V/r Shawn


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## Flat Tire (Aug 21, 2013)

If you want to compare cars and bikes, check this out, woweee!

http://autos.aol.com/article/vintag...rid7|compaq-desktop|dl3|sec1_lnk2&pLid=361073


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## Balloontyre (Aug 21, 2013)

*part it out?*

Or sell intact? Oops wrong thread....


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## old hotrod (Aug 21, 2013)

Just to add another twist to this...I am in So Cal where we can ride all year. Unlike other parts of the country, there are no bike shows and few events. Instead, we make a few calls, post something on The Cabe or elsewhere and boom, we group up and ride. These become rolling bike shows of 5 to 250 bikes. There will be rare originals (some of the rarest in the hobby),  restored bikes, rat rod bikes and customs all mixed together. When we stop to chit chat, eat or whatever, invariably the bikes that get the most attention and spark the most conversation are the crusty originals-sometimes the crustier the better. 
The basic problem is that the prewar segment of the hobby has gotten so old that it has out lived much of its fan base. People don't know the difference between a 30s bike and one from the 50s or 60s. And the repops didn't help. People see a finely restored prewar bike and ask if or assume that it is a repop or a new knock off. The majority of people walking by don't know a rare old bike from wally world junk. 
Not much funnier than to watch someone walk around a $10k uber rare bike to get a good look at the rusty 50s Phantom cuz they know that it's a cool old bike like their dad had because it looks the part. Unfortunately, not having a place to show off the finely restored bikes and educate the public has slightly diminished their appeal...but understand that within the hobby, there is always an appreciation.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Aug 21, 2013)

old hotrod said:


> Just to add another twist to this...I am in So Cal where we can ride all year. Unlike other parts of the country, there are no bike shows and few events. Instead, we make a few calls, post something on The Cabe or elsewhere and boom, we group up and ride. These become rolling bike shows of 5 to 250 bikes. There will be rare originals (some of the rarest in the hobby),  restored bikes, rat rod bikes and customs all mixed together. When we stop to chit chat, eat or whatever, invariably the bikes that get the most attention and spark the most conversation are the crusty originals-sometimes the crustier the better.
> The basic problem is that the prewar segment of the hobby has gotten so old that it has out lived much of its fan base. People don't know the difference between a 30s bike and one from the 50s or 60s. And the repops didn't help. People see a finely restored prewar bike and ask if or assume that it is a repop or a new knock off. The majority of people walking by don't know a rare old bike from wally world junk.
> Not much funnier than to watch someone walk around a $10k uber rare bike to get a good look at the rusty 50s Phantom cuz they know that it's a cool old bike like their dad had because it looks the part. Unfortunately, not having a place to show off the finely restored bikes and educate the public has slightly diminished their appeal...but understand that within the hobby, there is always an appreciation.




That's even true for two bikes from the same year lol.. I have my blue bike that's a very good survivor and my girl has her heavily patina bfg. Both from the same year but people always say how cool hers is and ask if my blue is a new one made to.look old... Haha


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## cl222 (Aug 21, 2013)

I think that what they did with Grand Central station would be a good idea when repainting a bike with too far gone original paint. They left a bit like it was before the restoration. With a bike you could leave the best example of what the ruined paint looked like and repaint the rest. I'm not sure how to go about doing something like this but I think it would be a neat bit on any restoration.


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## redline1968 (Aug 21, 2013)

thegoodthebad&therusty said:


> *"did you ever see an original condition car take best of show at a car show?? Never will happen."
> *
> 
> i beg to differ, "car shows" are all different, but when it comes to resale value, unrestored originality trumps restored "replicas" with re-pop parts all day long. Case in point -
> ...



dude... That is a boss 9. You can paint poka dots and piss  on it and still will bring big bucks... Restore it an poop on it and it will still bring big bucks.


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## redline1968 (Aug 21, 2013)

Ill bet that half of the rust huggers sell parts that they hope a restorer wants.. They need restorers.. Dislike restorers and restorations but love the money that they use to buy the originals for them selfs.what a scam.


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## bikewhorder (Aug 21, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> Ill bet that half of the rust huggers sell parts that they hope a restorer wants.. They need restorers.. Dislike restorers and restorations but love the money that they use to buy the originals for them selfs.what a scam.




A scam?!? Wha??  Could you please rewrite that last sentence less incoherently.  Its not a scam to sell parts to somebody who is doing a restoration, and there's nothing hypocritical about it.   -Rusthugger


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## redline1968 (Aug 21, 2013)

bikewhorder said:


> A scam?!? Wha??  Could you please rewrite that last sentence less incoherently.  -Rusthugger




ill be glad too.  ill make it simply put.  they depend on the restorer (money)  using it to get a unrestored original bike (what they want) and condeming them(the restorers) for restoring bikes and not keeping it original.  i see scam is too strong a word for now.


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## bikewhorder (Aug 21, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> ill be glad too.  ill make it simply put.  they depend on the restorer (money)  using it to get a unrestored original bike (what they want) and condeming them(the restorers) for restoring bikes and not keeping it original.  i see scam is too strong a word for now.




Yeah sorry, My first instinct when I saw the title of this tread was to ignore it and now I wish I had, this topic has been beaten to death, and talking about it is a waste of time.


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Aug 21, 2013)

In the antique toy world, collectors want mint original condition items. These items set the records at toy auctions. Antique car collectors seek the same but for the very sought after cars, restoration is considered very acceptable.
I think if chrome and nickel plating was not so painfully expensive, restorations would be much more commonplace, albeit restorations on more borderline condition bicycles.
I think that there is a big enough world for all types of restorations and types of conserving of original bicycles. There is enough heated passion to go around to cause much debate but in the end we all agree that we are all preserving the history of the beloved antique and collector bicycle.


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## rustjunkie (Aug 21, 2013)

GiovanniLiCalsi said:


> I think if chrome and nickel plating was not so painfully expensive, restorations would be much more commonplace...




The cost isn't so much the issue for me, it's finding a shop that will do the polishing properly: retaining edges, curvatures, and not making flat surfaces look like carnival mirrors.


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## El Roth (Aug 21, 2013)

redline1968 said:


> every time i look at this bike i want to kick it and throw it to the curb.  a painted pile of junk that has no right to be shown. who could have resored this? what a shame...



not sure if you are joking? got any before picture of that hiawatha? good chance it was a real pos with missing parts.

  most of my bikes are og..unrestored.  but i do have a restored bike .. a shelby..of course i very much rather have all og unrestored presentable shelby but they are not exactly falling out of trees. i have no choice.. i started out with a frame and fork and went from there.. im happy with it and i got a shelby. yes its way too blingy for my taste. its ok..gotta have a balance somewhere and i love it. 

OG bikes..unrestored..key word,,presentable..got soul. got stories behind every dent etc. mother natures art! not even the very best can do what mother nature did.


whatever turns you on i guess..but i just hope theres common sense and respect before anyone sandblasts one..i seen plenty of survivors totally gone and i was shocked. saw it restored and it was nice..but its a pos in my eyes because what i saw it before resto...


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## scrubbinrims (Aug 21, 2013)

Financial or ethical considerations aside, I simply do not have the emotional attachment to restored bicycles.
What else is there to say?
Chris


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Aug 21, 2013)

alw said:


> The cost isn't so much the issue for me, it's finding a shop that will do the polishing properly: retaining edges, curvatures, and not making flat surfaces look like carnival mirrors.




Ain't that the truth... You would think they would take more pride in the work considering what it is and the price they ask.. Lots of amateur plate work out there.
Kinda scared to send anything out. Anybody know of an excellent pro doing chrome work without screwing it up or over?


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## El Roth (Aug 21, 2013)

fatbar said:


> Ain't that the truth... You would think they would take more pride in the work considering what it is and the price they ask.. Lots of amateur plate work out there.
> Kinda scared to send anything out. Anybody know of an excellent pro doing chrome work without screwing it up or over?




try Sherms plating in Sacramento, CA  expensive but they do the job.  I brought in pair of spears for the shelby airflo tank .... the chromer says  thats for a shelby.. lol ..they always ask me many questions when i bring stuffs there.. i like that..


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Aug 21, 2013)

Here a is a plater that is the oldest West Coast plater and will re-engrave the scripts on hubs and other items. They will also treat every surface as if they a polishing jewelry.

About Monsen Plating

Monsen Silversmiths restores precious metals and fine antiques. Established in 1904, MONSEN is one of the oldest metal restoration companies located on the West Coast.
Gary Reopelle, master craftsman for the past 35 years, is the proprietor of MONSEN SILVERSMITHS. Gary consults with customers, authenticates family heirlooms, and oversees the repair and polishing departments. MONSEN does not appraise, however, they will provide an approximate age, assess the structure, and interpret the hallmark of your piece.

http://www.monsensilversmiths.com/


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## decotriumph (Aug 21, 2013)

fatbar said:


> Ain't that the truth... You would think they would take more pride in the work considering what it is and the price they ask.. Lots of amateur plate work out there.
> Kinda scared to send anything out. Anybody know of an excellent pro doing chrome work without screwing it up or over?




Sherm's is excellent. Advanced Plating in Nashville (http://www.advancedplating.com/) also does great work. I know people in the hot rod and custom car world who send their parts cross-country to both of those shops because they are among the best.


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## hoofhearted (Aug 21, 2013)

*Forming The "SHOOT YOURSELF RIGHT IN THE FACE .. WHILE YOU STILL CAN -- CLUB"*

So ...... years ago I picks up an impossible to find (fer me, anyway) 1917 Davis motorbike frame WITH the 
heavy-duty truss fork. The frame sports an "Overland" badge.  THIS FRAME DESIGN is my ALL-TIME FAVORITE 
FRAME DESIGN from Davis.  Has a very-stretched-out appearance BECAUSE of the near-extreme angle of the 
head tube.

Around 1990 .. picks up the BEST .. Used-Original H-D Chainring I have ever owned.  Also picks up the BEST .. 
Used-Original H-D Badge I have ever owned.

Same with Fenders that are correct for a Davis-Built .. as well as .. Saddle .. Bars .. Long Stem .. Dropstand .. 
the Long, Dropstand Clip ... and all the smalls to build an H-D Motorcyke.

Am goin' out to spark a decent forty-five cent cigar ... be right back ........ 

O-KAY ... in the past five years .. have enjoyed peepin' rides that are done in mostly raw steel .. darkened down 
with an oxidizing agent.  Some folks on the CABE call this treatment gun bluing.  I do not have a foto-example 
of what I am typing about.

The final finish is protective in nature ... with a sprayed, flat-finish poly-u.

Look ... it's too late to make a long story - short ... but, I'll try.  

So I got this abundant collection of great Motorcyke parts .. and I want to button the parts together to build a "whole" 
ride ... here's the issue .... I READ THIS ENTIRE THREAD ... "Restore vs Original ??" ... 

YESTERDAY .. I read an entire thread on the CABE ... "What would you do??" --- THREE TIMES.

JUST THIS MORNING ... I gets a frantic call from a CABEr .. "Say .. do you have ANY SPARE PARTS FOR A CHIEF ??!"

Well .. I do .. but they came off of a 1920-1921 Sear's ELGIN ... Chainring .. Crankarm .. Fenders .. Dropstand ...... the 
Long, Dropstand Clip .. and some other stuff .. but I must warn you ...THESE PARTS were on AN ELGIN .. not a Chief  !!!!!

The caller asks, "Could Those Parts Go On A CHIEF ??? " 

MY RESPONSE .... I'm not sure .. any more .......... Have you read those threads "Restore vs Original ??" ... AND .......
"What Would You Do ??" .....................

..........................  p. cafaro

The 5th pic is for ALW.


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## rustjunkie (Aug 21, 2013)

hoofhearted said:


> so ......   This frame design is my all-time favorite
> frame design from davis.  Has a very-stretched-out appearance because of the near-extreme angle of the
> head tube......




n i c e  p i c s  !


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## Iverider (Aug 21, 2013)

Restorations are awesome!





Keep it original as long as you dare and restore at your own risk.


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## Larmo63 (Aug 21, 2013)

I guess it boils down to: If you like original bikes, ride and collect those. I you like to restore bikes, and/or collect and ride restored bikes, then do that. Why do we quibble over this stupid subject when it doesn't really matter? It's all a matter of opinion, likes and dislikes, and we all have free will.


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## MrColumbia (Aug 21, 2013)

bikewhorder said:


> Ugh, I knew you were going to say this Ken, it is a tired topic after all and I've heard your opinion on this before.  I often completely agree with your contributions to this site but this one area that I think your totally wrong.  Rust may not be original to the bike's factory appearance but it is original to the bike.  I think the reason rust and patina have come into style not just in this hobby, but in general, is not so much about originality as is it _authenticity_. And a restored bike loses all traces of this quality. We live in a world now where there is so much phoniness and everything is built with the understanding that it will be obsolete in x number of years that I think people are left with a deep craving for something real, something authentic.
> For me the paint is like the skin of the bike, if your someone who thinks these objects have a soul, you simply can't remove their skin and replace it with a new one and expect the soul to remain intact.  For me the difference between an original bike and a restored one is like the difference between seeing an animal in the wild and looking at the animals in a Cabela's.  Its still interesting but the thrill is gone.







 You carefully forgot to include the parts where I *agree* with the new focus on originality and not restoring bikes. As a matter of fact I do agree with almost everything you state above. 

 It is an interesting discussion though because if "Rust may not be original to the bike's factory appearance but it is original to the bike" then where does one draw the line when contemplating what to do with an old bike that is not in working order. Many here proudly state that they ride their vintage bikes and may even look down upon those who don't. Can we change the tires? How about fixing that bent fork or replacing an unfixable front rim. I think the contributions we make to these bikes is just a valid as ones made 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. What I personally believe is we need to make these contributions in a positive way and one that does not hurt the authenticity. That takes research and carful thought. As far as bikes having a soul, that is more credit than I give most humans. 

  If someone is lucky enough to find a bike that is a great rider and needs nothing then this entire string is irrelevant to the situation. 

 An yes, this is a tired old (and hotly debated) subject but it seems not so tired that it generates 7 or more pages.


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## Iverider (Aug 21, 2013)

I love the original paint on my Arch Truss. All 3 square inches of it  I know...I need to remove the white house paint.


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## THE STIG (Aug 21, 2013)

Krautwaggen said:


> I love the original paint on my Arch Truss. All 3 square inches of it  I know...I need to remove the white house paint.




Sell or trade that Jet Flow ?


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Aug 21, 2013)

Brian,
Your bicycle has diplomatic immunity with the Whitehouse paint!


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## redline1968 (Aug 21, 2013)

El Roth said:


> not sure if you are joking? got any before picture of that hiawatha? good chance it was a real pos with missing parts.
> 
> most of my bikes are og..unrestored.  but i do have a restored bike .. a shelby..of course i very much rather have all og unrestored presentable shelby but they are not exactly falling out of trees. i have no choice.. i started out with a frame and fork and went from there.. im happy with it and i got a shelby. yes its way too blingy for my taste. its ok..gotta have a balance somewhere and i love it.
> 
> ...



it was a ebay purchase 11 years ago with no paint and completey paint stripped and disassembled the owner was retiring and it had to go.  i got lucky on it. the rack is a womens  but the rest is all original. one day i will change the rack but i looks good on it for now.  i still love it.


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## redline1968 (Aug 21, 2013)

hoofhearted said:


> so ...... Years ago i picks up an impossible to find (fer me, anyway) 1917 davis motorbike frame with the
> heavy-duty truss fork. The frame sports an "overland" badge.  This frame design is my all-time favorite
> frame design from davis.  Has a very-stretched-out appearance because of the near-extreme angle of the
> head tube.
> ...




do it dude its gonna look great!!!


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## mikecuda (Feb 1, 2021)

I just bought two Simplex Servicycles to restore.       Both bikes are all in pieces.  But a lot of parts are there and my pal in the hobby, Wayne has the parts down in Alabama. The last 2 photos are my vision for both bikes.


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## vincev (Feb 1, 2021)

Not many true restorations.A real restoration is expensive.I think most are just amateur "restorations" with wrong parts,paint etc.


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## Oilit (Feb 1, 2021)

When I look in the mirror, I see plenty of patina. On the other hand, there are people in Hollywood who still look as factory fresh as they did 20 years ago. Maybe they take better care of themselves, or maybe they've got more to spend on restoration. Either way I have more sympathy for dents and scratches than I used to.


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## Escondido Deluxe Hornet (Feb 1, 2021)

It is all personal preference...I dont think there is a right or wrong answer. I have both and love them the same.


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## mikecuda (Feb 2, 2021)

As you can see in photo #1 someone hacked the two front down tubes to jam in a gigantic engine.  Didn't work, so they aborted the project.    Now I'm the custodian to save this old boy.


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## mikecuda (Feb 2, 2021)

Iverider said:


> I love the original paint on my Arch Truss. All 3 square inches of it  I know...I need to remove the white house paint.
> View attachment 546997



Diggin that teacup headlight.


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## blasterracing (Feb 2, 2021)

I personally like a restored bike best if I plan to keep it in my personal collection.  I however only restore bikes that in my opinion are too far gone to be a quality representation of its history.  I'm sure my restorations can be ripped apart by the experts, but I do my homework and restore them as close to factory as possible.  I'm just not a rust and dull paint kind of guy I guess.  It's personal preference.  I've sold many nice original Shelby bikes over the years that I felt were too nice to restore in order to help finance my restorations.  

Tim Newmeyer
Shelby, Ohio


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