# Mystery "clubman's" frame



## dnc1 (Mar 14, 2022)

Just acquired this last week.
Mystery British "clubman's road/path" frameset believed to be from the 1940's/50's.
The frame has track dropouts with mudguard eyes and has been drilled for brakes, probably at the time of manufacture. 
Clues:
Some interesting details in the photos and traces of (possibly) original orange paint on the fork steerer tube and inside the bottom bracket shell.
Two different numbers stamped under BB shell, with the same two numbers also stamped on fork steerer tube. 
Fork dropouts are also slightly unusually shaped.
Also has an 'M' or 'W' stamped on the fork steerer tube and an 'A' and '?2°' on the seat binder lug, these are the things that I don't usually see and found particularly interesting. 
Any ideas anyone?


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## bulldog1935 (Mar 14, 2022)

no specific idea, other than the track dropouts are perfect for tightening the chain on a Sturmey Archer IG hub.
Since it's stamped right where Raleigh stamped their s/n, I ltook a quick look at old RRA, but the lugs aren't even close. 
However, when you get there, you need cool wing-nuts for mud-guard quick release



 



@dnc1 - this is noteworthy.  
I did run across this example 1955 shop-racer  RRA with track dropout








						Raleigh Record Ace (RRA) 1947-1954
					

Raleigh Record Ace, Raleigh RRA, Reg Harris




					on-the-drops.blogspot.com


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## corbettclassics (Mar 14, 2022)

Nice frame!!  My first thought was an early Holdsworth when I saw the fork crown.  I've seen the lugs before and the crown but need to think it out a little.
Holdsworth was known for their orange color as seen on the steer tube.

I believe the number on the seat cluster is most likely the angle at 72 degrees.


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## dnc1 (Mar 14, 2022)

bulldog1935 said:


> no specific idea, other than the track dropouts are perfect for tightening the chain on a Sturmey Archer IG hub.
> Since it's stamped right where Raleigh stamped their s/n, I ltook a quick look at old RRA, but the lugs aren't even close.
> However, when you get there, you need cool wing-nuts for mud-guard quick release
> 
> ...




I'm in two minds re. the forthcoming build.
Either a SA hub gear or double fixed rear hub.
I have many potential components already in the parts bin.
It was a chance find; my friend went to purchase a SA 3-speed fixed 'ASC' hub and as he was leaving, the seller asked him if he knew anyone that might be interested in this frame that had been hanging in the garage roof space for the last 25 years.
Fortunately Ian is too tall for this one and therefore contacted me.
I bought it sight unseen, at a very reasonable price.
If only I'd known about the 'ASC' hub too, that would be fantastic on something like this.


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## corbettclassics (Mar 14, 2022)

I wonder if it's an old "Rotrax" as I have one real similar.  
Such a beautiful frame - I think you scored on this one!


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## dnc1 (Mar 14, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> Nice frame!!  My first thought was an early Holdsworth when I saw the fork crown.  I've seen the lugs before and the crown but need to think it out a little.
> Holdsworth was known for their orange color as seen on the steer tube.
> 
> I believe the number on the seat cluster is most likely the angle at 72 degrees.



Thanks, it's certainly well made enough to be a Holdsworth, and those traces of orange paint certainly struck the same chord in my mind too.
I was perhaps thinking of a reverse of their classic paintwork, but in blue, with an orange band on the seat tube and head tube, but we'll see.
I figured it might be the angle of the frame geometry,  but the unreadable part doesn't look like a '7'.  I guess I'll have to get the protractor out, lol.


corbettclassics said:


> I wonder if it's an old "Rotrax" as I have one real similar.
> Such a beautiful frame - I think you scored on this one!



That's another thought,  I'm not that familiar with 'Rotrax' but I know a man who is;  he owns a couple and is from that part of the world. 
I've sent him an email so hopefully he may be able to shed some light on it.


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## corbettclassics (Mar 14, 2022)

Actually I think the bike is an "Uppadine".

I knew I was familiar with it but didn't ring a bell at first.

I'll show a couple pics of mine for comparison.  They are pretty rare bikes and you have the early version as mine is.


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## corbettclassics (Mar 14, 2022)

Here ya go!!

Problem solved ....


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## corbettclassics (Mar 14, 2022)

This is what your head badge will look like ( I've already had them made )

And also your lettering on the down tube is this block style - photo shown


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## dnc1 (Mar 14, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> Here ya go!!
> 
> Problem solved ....
> 
> ...






corbettclassics said:


> This is what your head badge will look like ( I've already had them made )
> 
> And also your lettering on the down tube is this block style - photo shown
> 
> ...



Wow! I think you've nailed the identification!
That is a pretty rare find.
Thankyou so much for taking the time to pick that brain of yours.
Much appreciated. 
Research needed now on my part.


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## corbettclassics (Mar 14, 2022)

I think my serial number is "067" which I think is about 1954 or '55. 

your number is "205" so not exactly sure how many they built per year but you have a good idea of your bike.


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## dnc1 (Mar 14, 2022)

I've been doing a little research/reading online and there are several mentions of 'Mercian' actually building frames for Uppadine which possibly could account for the 'M' stamped on the fork steerer.  But no real confirmation of this fact. 'Mercian' did contract build for many others.
Other comments mention that the frames were built at their Coventry branch.
More research required I guess.


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## corbettclassics (Mar 14, 2022)

Yes you are correct about that.  I started researching last year as well but got tied up with other things. 
Not very much on the Uppadine but there is a little out there to research.  It's a rare bike!

HLloyds does decal transfers for the later bikes.  I'm positive yours is the same as mine.  I only know of one other early one like ours - it's on Flickr.


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## corbettclassics (Mar 15, 2022)

Also note that the gold color on mine is not correct.  But the head lug gold coloring is correct on the bike and it's the only original colors present. 
Someone clearly taped off the head tube and resprayed all the tubes to try and match but did a horrible color match.  The lugs have a beautiful orange 
lining around them and my decals are orange as well so a great color combo.  It seems the black panels must be original to the frame also.

I guess you can do your bike any way you want really .... maybe in all orange!   At least there is remnants of original color to go by for when you do your restoration.  






Here's my b/b shell showing the numbers.  I haven't stripped the frame yet as I'm being cautious before taking everything all off.





One day I was thinking if there might be original decals under the crappy paint someone did to this frame.  I started sanding and found the original 
font so now I know what it looks like in its original livery. Still need to do some more detective work on it though.  It might have font on the top tube
or on the stays etc.





Since Mercian was somehow involved with Uppadine then I thought of something like this Track bike.  I thought of something more in line
with the seat tube styling for mine with the black striped so thinking anyway.  I think you can get creative with yours and do what you like.


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## cyclingday (Mar 15, 2022)

Nice detective work.
You guys are amazing!
Congrats, Darren,
That’s going to be a beauty!


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## dnc1 (Mar 15, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> Also note that the gold color on mine is not correct.  But the head lug gold coloring is correct on the bike and it's the only original colors present.
> Someone clearly taped off the head tube and resprayed all the tubes to try and match but did a horrible color match.  The lugs have a beautiful orange
> lining around them and my decals are orange as well so a great color combo.  It seems the black panels must be original to the frame also.
> 
> ...



That 'Mercian' looks great.
I'm definitely leaning towards the orange and blue combination at the moment, but this may change!
If you have the good image of the head transfer you used to have the copies made I'd appreciate a copy of it in order to make some good transfers myself.
The later (1960's) transfers available from 'H. Lloyd's' are a little less stylish in my opinion. 
Unfortunately they don't have the 'blocky' font downtube transfer either.


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## dnc1 (Mar 15, 2022)

cyclingday said:


> Nice detective work.
> You guys are amazing!
> Congrats, Darren,
> That’s going to be a beauty!



Thanks!
So much knowledge and help available on here.
Never ceases to amaze me.
I hope I can do it justice!


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## cyclingday (Mar 15, 2022)

Check with Gus Salmon Decals, here on the Cabe.
If you can get some good high resolution photos of those decals, he can make them for you.
His decals are outstanding!
He just needs good quality pictures and measurements, and a commitment from you, and you’ll have them in your mailbox by the end of the week.


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## corbettclassics (Mar 15, 2022)

I've had Gus do some decals for me also and they are amazing!!  He didn't do the decals for this bike but did another set for me on another bike. His work is top notch! 

Note: I've already had these "Uppadine" decals made in water slide from a guy in the U.K. several yrs ago.  I'll go through what I have because I think I have extras.  I also have all the artwork since I paid big bucks to have it drawn up etc.


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## Lonestar (Mar 15, 2022)

This thread is what the CABE is all about! I am amazed by you guys almost everytime I log in...
Congrats @dnc1  😊


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## dnc1 (Mar 15, 2022)

Lonestar said:


> This thread is what the CABE is all about! I am amazed by you guys almost everytime I log in...
> Congrats @dnc1  😊



Thanks.
It's how it should be!
Never trying to amaze anyone,  just good communication and the sharing of knowledge and information for the benefit of all.


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## Jesper (Mar 15, 2022)

Great find! 
Great community support on identifying it!
Is it a 531 butted or straight gauge? I couldn't discern the decal type.


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## dnc1 (Mar 16, 2022)

Jesper said:


> Great find!
> Great community support on identifying it!
> Is it a 531 butted or straight gauge? I couldn't discern the decal type.



Thanks.
Good question @Jesper.
It can only be one of two 'Reynolds 531' transfers that were available at that time,  shown here in an excerpt from the 'Reynolds' tubing timeline on 'H. Lloyd's' website.....





...I'm basing that statement on the position of the "531" in relation to the "Reynolds" wording. it's just a question of the size of the extant transfer on @corbettclassics frame to determine which one I will need; both examples are readily available to buy.
This suggests that it is plain gauge tubing and the internal diameter of the seat tube is definitely not 27.2mm on mine which kind of rules out double-butted tubing. 
Although this can be a very grey area of much contention as I believe some manufacturers (Raleigh are well known for this) used seat posts of 25.4mm on some of their double-butted 'Reynolds' frames.
This transfer also suggests that only the main triangle is 'Reynolds' tubing. 

From what I can gather about 'Uppadine' is that they were very much built to order, for the discerning, serious club rider; and those aspiring to be so!
Here is their advertisement that ran in 'Coureur' magazine through the 1960's.....




(Image from V-CC library).

..."100% Light and Ultra Light specialists" no less.
I'm now curious as to which TdF riders they built frames for. 
Apparently there was a photo hanging on the wall inside that shop showing a certain T. Simpson riding one of their machines!


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## corbettclassics (Mar 16, 2022)

Here's the "531" decal on my seat tube. They taped it off and painted around it so at least they were smart enough to keep the original on it.


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## dnc1 (Mar 16, 2022)

corbettclassics said:


> Here's the "531" decal on my seat tube. They taped it off and painted around it so at least they were smart enough to keep the original on it.
> 
> View attachment 1589780
> 
> ...



Many thanks, I think it's safe to deduce from the size of that transfer in relation to the tubing size that it's almost certainly the larger of the two transfers in my previous post.
This was in use from '53 to '72 so it certainly ties in well with the date of your frameset and mine.


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## dnc1 (Mar 16, 2022)

The advert I posted earlier dates to 1963.
Here's one from 1960, the earliest one I've found to date.....




(Image from V-CC library).

...unfortunately I haven't come across any of the pre 1960 issues of 'Coureur' yet, but I believe that they started publishing quarterly in 1957.


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## corbettclassics (Mar 16, 2022)




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## dnc1 (Apr 13, 2022)

Paint chosen,  'Uppadine' and 'Reynolds' transfers ordered.
Hopefully will update with photos when it's ready. 
Just a rear wheel and pedals to find!


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## bulldog1935 (Apr 13, 2022)

you tease, we want to see results 😀


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## dnc1 (Apr 13, 2022)

bulldog1935 said:


> you tease, we want to see results 😀



It's going to be a few weeks away yet.


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