# Help Id Pierce



## kirk thomas (Jun 11, 2016)

This bike was bought in 1914 by a man that went to the city to the doctors and was told he had cancer and was going to die soon. He bought the bike after the doctors appointment and rode his new Pierce 11 miles home. He died the next day and the bike was hung in the barn. Till someone of the relatives was going to get it going around 1940 or so and painted it green. This is the story I have been told by the Great,Great,Great, Grandson. He says he is going to talk to the family and try to get me some names and dates of the history. I will try to update if I hear back from him. I am wondering if this is a Pierce Racer and if anyone can tell me of a possible value.


----------



## locomotion (Jun 11, 2016)

gotta love those stories ...
I missed the part where the fork got bent back!!!
it must of been one heck of a wet barn


----------



## corbettclassics (Jun 11, 2016)

Looks like someone removed the "Special Racer" badge below the main badge.

So, with evidence of that badge being there then it's a "Special Racer".

Looks like someone hit a wall head on!!!!!!  Forks are really bent back but those can be fixed.


----------



## filmonger (Jun 12, 2016)

I can't quite make that serial number out...


----------



## kirk thomas (Jun 12, 2016)

I guess it is a Pierce Racer, no interest here going to ebay soon.


----------



## hoofhearted (Jun 12, 2016)




----------



## dfa242 (Jun 12, 2016)

kirk thomas said:


> I guess it is a Pierce Racer, no interest here going to ebay soon.



I suspect there might be some interest here if you offered it up for sale.


----------



## XBPete (Jun 12, 2016)

Nice score... beauty bike!

I am sure there is plenty of interest, close enough to me I would be driving now! lol


----------



## kirk thomas (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't know much about these and would sell but I see this kind of bike selling from $1000 to $4000. I have no idea what to ask that is why I say ebay. I know everyone wants the deal of the year so do I. I would trade this up for a Bluebird carcas. anyone have one?


----------



## XBPete (Jun 12, 2016)

Saw this ad from April for comparison...

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1901-rambler-4-sale.89937/


----------



## locomotion (Jun 12, 2016)

kirk thomas said:


> I don't know much about these and would sell but I see this kind of bike selling from $1000 to $4000. I have no idea what to ask that is why I say ebay. I know everyone wants the deal of the year so do I. I would trade this up for a Bluebird carcas. anyone have one?



hope the story comes with it, you have to write that down and get it notorized
EBay is the way to go IMO, start it at $1 and watch it go


----------



## locomotion (Jun 12, 2016)

i will start the auction at $800 if the special racer badge would also be for sale


----------



## Dale Alan (Jun 12, 2016)

kirk thomas said:


> I guess it is a Pierce Racer, no interest here going to ebay soon.




You say no interest here,why not make a proper post in the For ale area ? Sometimes folks do not read between the lines when they see a fishing expedition.


----------



## kirk thomas (Jun 12, 2016)

I have no idea how much to ask and would give someone a great deal on it. Just trying to find out how much to sell it for, thanks.


----------



## Freqman1 (Jun 12, 2016)

Then why not just come out and say "I found this bike and would like to sell it but don't know what its worth" instead of the 'fishing' expedition. V/r Shawn


----------



## locomotion (Jun 12, 2016)

https://media.giphy.com/media/l396ROWGclRADf0bu/giphy.gif


----------



## kirk thomas (Jun 12, 2016)

I got this bike from a taxi driver and am trying to find out how much I should ask for it when I sell it. The story is true as far as I know. The serial number is 156523. Thanks again


----------



## pelletman (Jun 12, 2016)

Unless he rode it home and hit a curb or a wall on the way, or it was ridden after his death by someone else I'd be suspicious of the story.  The story doesn't really matter to value though.


----------



## redline1968 (Jun 12, 2016)

The way it was hit I'd look at the frame for damages. N


----------



## filmonger (Jun 13, 2016)

Ummm - with the bent fork.....Hazard to guess 1200.00 would be realistic. You will get quite a bit more on eBay or by parting it out - some of the guys here would likely pay more as well. In my book it is a 1200.00 bike max. Put it in the for sale section with a high price - you will get your offers there from the cabe members. If you like bikes - just sell it here and pull it from e-bay. It will go to a good home. It's not always about money. Preservation and discovery are our reminders of the past and where we all came from. Thanks for the serial number as well!


----------



## kirk thomas (Jun 13, 2016)

kirk thomas said:


> I got this bike from a taxi driver and am trying to find out how much I should ask for it when I sell it. The story is true as far as I know. The serial number is 156523. Thanks again



Here is a couple of pictures of the forks straight now they where not to bad.


----------



## kirk thomas (Jun 13, 2016)

I would consider a trade for a Huffy Dial your ride or maybe a balloon tanker from the 40's or 50's. I also have a little cash if need be.


----------



## kirk thomas (Jun 13, 2016)

How do I move this thread to trade section as I would consider trades for a 40's or 50's balloon tanker. I have been looking for a Dial Your Ride.


----------



## filmonger (Jun 13, 2016)

Cool - that should make a difference and bring the value up... Again, just put it in the for sale section and lay your trade and/or sale terms on the table there. Bet you find someone who has what you want.


----------



## kirk thomas (Jun 13, 2016)

If anyone knows how to delete this thread please do. I tried as I have moved the bike to sell/trade. Thanks again.


----------



## pelletman (Jun 13, 2016)

That missing badge didn't necessarily say "Special Racer"  I have seen them say "Special" and "Racer" and they probably identify other models too.


----------



## pelletman (Jun 13, 2016)

I don't see any evidence of it being any kind of racer, other than the skinny front wheel.   I think it is a regular Pierce Special.  I have seen that lower badge say different things on different bikes. 



corbettclassics said:


> Looks like someone removed the "Special Racer" badge below the main badge.
> 
> So, with evidence of that badge being there then it's a "Special Racer".
> 
> Looks like someone hit a wall head on!!!!!!  Forks are really bent back but those can be fixed.


----------



## Freqman1 (Jun 13, 2016)

Mine also has the "SPECIAL" tag on it. V/r Shawn


----------



## corbettclassics (Jun 13, 2016)

I think you're right Dave.  But, that "Special" badge is much thinner than the "Special Racer" badge and for
some reason that mark that is left as remnants of an old badge looks thicker to me - more like the "Special Racer".

Compare the two and see what you think.


----------



## filmonger (Jun 14, 2016)

Simple - but interesting detective work!


----------



## pelletman (Jun 14, 2016)

I can't really tell how tall the spot is on his bike.  I was thinking the sprocket, frame and fork are pretty much the same as the Special pictured.


----------



## corbettclassics (Jun 14, 2016)

The "Special" actually was used for track use as this is what it was designed for if I remember correctly.

He could always measure the crank arms and see if they are 6-1/2" or 7".  I'm not sure if the "Special"
had 6-1/2" arms though.  Need to check my files and find one of the catalogues showing the "Special".


----------



## Freqman1 (Jun 15, 2016)

corbettclassics said:


> The "Special" actually was used for track use as this is what it was designed for if I remember correctly.
> 
> He could always measure the crank arms and see if they are 6-1/2" or 7".  I'm not sure if the "Special"
> had 6-1/2" arms though.  Need to check my files and find one of the catalogues showing the "Special".




I don't believe the "Special" was a track bike. From what I gather reading the literature (at least for 1902) it had to do with nickeled forks and higher grade components e.g. pedals, chain, tires, and saddle. The crank for both regular and Special model was 7". V/r Shawn


----------



## Freqman1 (Jun 15, 2016)

After examining the OPs bike closer I believe that is probably a "Special" and not a racer. Looking at the literature the racers have a much shorter head tube which accounts for the badge and "Special Racer" tab being so close on the pic shown of a racer. The head tube of the OPs bike is tall, like mine, which is why I doubt this to be a racer. V/r Shawn


----------



## corbettclassics (Jun 15, 2016)

Here's what I was going by:  *RACERS*

Shows the "SPECIAL" model "for Track Use". ( model 141 - 142 - 143  > For Track Use … but also for Road Use as well )

hope this helps..


----------



## Joe Buffardi (Jun 15, 2016)

Neat!!


----------



## pelletman (Jun 15, 2016)

I think you are showing a racer AND  a special racer Bill

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## Freqman1 (Jun 15, 2016)

pelletman said:


> I think you are showing a racer AND  a special racer Bill
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk





I believe that is correct. I have some doubts about the story and how much the bike was used. For instance if this is a Racer/Special Racer the rear wheel/hub isn't correct. I'm still going with a roadster Special.V/r Shawn


----------



## bricycle (Jun 15, 2016)

kirk thomas said:


> I have no idea how much to ask and would give someone a great deal on it. Just trying to find out how much to sell it for, thanks.




With the fork saddle and wheel damage $800-$1000 seems fair. Too many boo boo's for 11 miles.


----------



## scrubbinrims (Jun 15, 2016)

corbettclassics said:


> Here's what I was going by:  *RACERS*
> 
> Shows the "SPECIAL" model "for Track Use". ( model 141 - 142 - 143  > For Track Use … but also for Road Use as well )
> 
> ...




Great post!
IMO, (which is not specialized for this genre by any means although I do have a nice dual suspension shaft drive Pierce and a 1903 Yale) there is not much degree of separation as some folks would make of it between a "track" bike and a "road" bike of the period.
I cannot read all the fine print here, but the bars are the primary difference...big deal...you could race with either model as they are geared the same, geometry the same.
Chris


----------



## pelletman (Jun 15, 2016)

scrubbinrims said:


> Great post!
> IMO, (which is not specialized for this genre by any means although I do have a nice dual suspension shaft drive Pierce and a 1903 Yale) there is not much degree of separation as some folks would make of it between a "track" bike and a "road" bike of the period.
> I cannot read all the fine print here, but the bars are the primary difference...big deal...you could race with either model as they are geared the same, geometry the same.
> Chris




I disagree, many of the racers are lighter frames and have narrower rims and tires.  I do agree that some companies made bikes they called racers that were the same as the regular bikes, but many had lighter versions.


----------



## scrubbinrims (Jun 15, 2016)

pelletman said:


> I disagree, many of the racers are lighter frames and have narrower rims and tires.  I do agree that some companies made bikes they called racers that were the same as the regular bikes, but many had lighter versions.




Many, most, or some "track racers" had lighter frames and narrower tires and rims?
Are road bikes or roadsters considered regular bikes?  I don't think so... a different racing style maybe.
Sure there was more specialized manufacturing, but what is it the exception or the norm?
Chris


----------



## pelletman (Jun 15, 2016)

I didn't say track racers.  I think most bikes are roadster types with 1.5" tires,  Iver made a racer, Columbia made a racer, etc etc.  The "racers", not necessarily track, tended to be lighter all around, smaller diameter frame tubing etc.  I think we could split hairs all day on track racers, road racers, light roadsters, etc...


----------



## filmonger (Jun 15, 2016)

From what I have read in the TOC rags...most Pros in the day considered weight as their main issue & consideration - though, sponsorship quickly changed this point of view for some. How that translated to bike sales & marketing is another matter.


----------



## corbettclassics (Jun 15, 2016)

Dave is right about track racers.  Some bikes look like a track racer but it is the racers that
had lighter tubing.  All the same stuff could be on another frame exactly the same but when you
pick the two up you will know the difference.

Unless bikes like Columbia who would put a model number on the badge, that would tell you if
it was their racer model.  I agree that it is pretty hard to tell with this bike since the most important
piece seems to be missing.

As for the catalogue, you could be right about that Dave.  Seems logical now that I look at it more.


----------



## pelletman (Jun 16, 2016)

The more I learn the more I know that I don't know anything!


----------



## dfa242 (Jun 16, 2016)

pelletman said:


> The more I learn the more I know that I don't know anything!



Welcome to my world, Dave.


----------



## kccomet (Jun 16, 2016)

ok, i guess i have to chime in and give my two cents. i tend to agree with each one of you on some points about factory racers. but..... bike racing was so big at this point in time, most companies had some type of racing model. most of these bikes were just junior, amateur racers, nothing to special, no pun intended. drop bars, racing saddle, ect. these bikes were mass produced and couldnt hold a candle to most handbuilt racers from mom and pop shops, and a few master builders. sure iver had its chater lea model and pierce its frank kramer model and these were  a couple steps ahead of these junior racers. the early bikes are really hard to tell, racer or roadster. i know bill loves the toc racers, but they seem pretty crude and primitive to the hand built 20s and 30s racers.with some exceptions. the big racers of the day had sponsers and teams they rode for. i doubt if frank kramer rode a pierce out of the box. special or special racer on this bike, i doubt there is much of a difference, sure you would need the correct tag for it. im calling it a junior racer. good luck with your sale, i would put in on ebay since your not sure what its worth to you


----------



## BuffaloBicyclesFred (Jun 17, 2016)

Hello All, I am the person who purchased the believed to be 1914 Pierce "Racer" Bicycle from Kirk Thomas here in Buffalo NY.

I would like to provide more information to the forum to try and finalize what the bicycle is:
What measurements should I take to help verify it?  Missing badge size, Crank arms, head tube, frame size, frame tube diameter? Would any of this help?
I will take a look at it this weekend and try to verify what the original paint/finish was on it also.

A few questions:
Is it a 1914?
Were 1914 "Specials" available with the springer front fork?
The rear tire is wood and steel clad, was this an original option on pierce bicycles of the era or aftermarket?
Is the pearsons saddle an original option or aftermarket?

Let me know, Thanks guys.
Fred


----------



## Freqman1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Does anyone have the 1914 catalog? This would probably help answer some questions. I'm thinking the clad wheel is a replacement and due to that and overall condition of this bike seriously doubt the "only rode twice" story. My gut says this is not a Racer or Special Racer but a roadster Special model. I'm not sure if the springer fork was available this late. I would say saddle, pedals, and bars are original but bars have been turned upside down. V/r Shawn


----------



## twowheelfan (Sep 18, 2016)

Freqman1 said:


> Does anyone have the 1914 catalog? This would probably help answer some questions. I'm thinking the clad wheel is a replacement and due to that and overall condition of this bike seriously doubt the "only rode twice" story. My gut says this is not a Racer or Special Racer but a roadster Special model. I'm not sure if the springer fork was available this late. I would say saddle, pedals, and bars are original but bars have been turned upside down. V/r Shawn



I have a Frank Kramer special Pierce. I do know that the racer frames have a different drop out at the back and the BBC cups didn't have dust caps. You can see the bearings. It was stated in the catalogs that the frame was made so chain adjustment didn't change geometry and the open bottoman bracket was for oiling the bearings on the track instead of greasing them. I have pictures of mine here in my profile I believe. I would be happy to chat with you about what I learned and such. There isn't enough info on these bikes out there! Nice pick up! Twowheelfan@yahoo.com  is me.


----------

