# 69 Super Sport Ava Alum. Alloy Stem Removal



## Jeff54

So, yeah, it's stuck, stuck in good too. An old original AVA death quill except, it died at the clamp verses usual riser and expander slot.

As it's completely split, I have no need to attempt saving anything albeit at first, tried.  The wedge is not stuck in there, it's dropped to bottom of tube. .  Smacking with biggest mallet failed and moving on to a sledge ain't doing it too. WD 40 has yielded nothing.

Whelp I guess there's 2 more options, torch the thing and hope no other metals and chrome  suffer or, cut  the top off, pull the fork out and hack saw inside of it, cutting the inner pipe which will, do, at least, some etching on the fork tube.  .

  I don't want to or have the energy to do the inside hack saw job nor etching the tube. Icing it as some say, not the way I expect to go and  Not liking the 'eat aluminum out with lye or  acids' ideas too. .  And I don't have a bunch of ammonia to try that one either.

So, Options, is there another way? The home-made system which doesn't require rocket science but common household junk, or mechanical  technique. .

A trick to break that 'galvanic corrosion' lose.


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## Dale Alan

If you cut it off will you be able to get something inside the steerer tube to the pound on the wedge ?


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## Jeff54

Dale Alan said:


> If you cut it off will you be able to get something inside the steerer tube to the pound on the wedge ?




"The wedge is not stuck in there, it's dropped to bottom of tube."


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## bikecrazy

I'm sure someone will come up with a better way, but here is what I would do. Cut off the stem flush with the nut. Remove the nut. Open up the hole with a drill. Wrap a hacksaw blade with cloth  on one end and cut the stem to the tube. Make another cut at a 90 degree angle to the first cut. Use a hammer and punch to loosen the stem. Aluminum saws very easy so this is not a big deal.


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## Dale Alan

Jeff54 said:


> "The wedge is not stuck in there, it's dropped to bottom of tube."



I know,that is why I asked if you could whack on the wedge . it may get stuck but you can hit it back down with a punch .


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## island schwinn

never mind.take em to the water...............well,you know the rest.


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## Schwinn499

Get it soaking in some PB blaster. I had a paramount with a stuck campy seatpost. No cutting that up. Filled the seat post with PB from the BB and let it soak for a couple days. Came out like butter.


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## Jeff54

Dale Alan said:


> I know,that is why I asked if you could whack on the wedge . it may get stuck but you can hit it back down with a punch .





I don't understand. The wedge is loose so, do you mean that, I could try prying the wedge up into the shaft {If it was still screwed in}? Otherwise the wedge came loose easily, I had left it screwed into the stem bolt but, while I was a-wackin it from side to side, it jiggled off and dropped into the bottom of fork tube. And so, since the wedge jiggled loose, I removed the stem bolt and tried whacking it down, to break the bond, no luck.


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## Dale Alan

Jeff54 said:


> I don't understand. The wedge is loose so, do you mean that, I could try prying the wedge up into the shaft {If it was still screwed in}? Otherwise the wedge came loose easily, I had left it screwed into the stem bolt but, while I was a-wackin it from side to side, it jiggled off and dropped into the bottom of fork tube. And so, since the wedge jiggled loose, I removed the stem bolt and tried whacking it down, to break the bond, no luck.



Sorry for the confusion,did not explain that too well .I meant cut the stem off so you can remove the fork and then you can put it in a vice and pound from underneath. Sometimes the wedge will bind but you can keep going . Heating the steerer may help break the bond . Aluminum heats faster than steel so letting it cool helps before pounding. The heat is just to try break the chemical bond.


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## SirMike1983

Heat and penetrating oil are the default methods for steel-steel seizure. However, they are the wrong method on aluminum-steel seizures. This is because aluminum tubes expand and contract at about 2x the rate of most steel frames.

What makes things particularly bad is the fact that this does not just "rust" into place, it galvanically corrodes into place because you have two dissimilar metals in contact. It is also notable that aluminum oxide takes up more space than aluminum, wedging things further into place.

In theory you could freeze the stem with interior dry ice and then place the head tube in warm water at the same time, creating an artificially high temperature differential.

If that doesn't work, let's assume this is a worst case scenario for now and everything else has failed, and it's plain we have totally galvanically corroded pieces in place.

I've seen two methods used, a chemical method and a machinist method. The guys who use chemicals to do this usually try to get ammonia into contact where the galvanic corrosion or aluminum oxide has formed. Ammonia will dissolve the aluminum oxide and likely free the stem if you can get the oxidation into sufficient contact with the chemicals. Once done, hose everything out fully. Make sure to plus any holes up so you don't dump ammonia. Use gloves and eye protection if you do it this way. I remember Sheldon Brown mentioned you could do it this way years ago. Maybe his web page has a description of it somewhere... he wrote everything down.

Method number two is where you cut off the stem until it is a straight pipe. Then bore out the stem until it is mere thin shell. Then take a small, slower speed grinder and carefully wear down the shell until it gives and can be removed.


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## Schwinn499

...and time. Soak it.


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## momo608

I have had stuck alloy stems and brute force, penetrating oil and heat was the answer. I'd get those stem shifters out of the way, take the head tube nut off, spray penetrating oil in there and start hammering the stem right to left to see if you can break it loose. It's probably seized near the top. Put some handlebars in it and see if you can screw the stem out of the steer tube.


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## Jeff54

momo608 said:


> I have had stuck alloy stems and brute force, penetrating oil and heat was the answer. I'd get those stem shifters out of the way, take the head tube nut off, spray penetrating oil in there and start hammering the stem right to left to see if you can break it loose. It's probably seized near the top. Put some handlebars in it and see if you can screw the stem out of the steer tube.





Yeah, I already did all that, except with heat [grin] it aint budging, not a fraction, not side to side and not down edder.  3 pound sledge is a no go. and attempting anything heavier will twist the fork and or while inside the frame other stuff ya donna wanna has to replace.  . Otherwise the bike is in very nice condition so, I'd guess to say it's been like this for 20 year. Who needs wedges to lock em in when a nice solid, certified 'galvanic corrosion' is more binding than super glue. .

Maybe I can get some ammonia down there, maybe. It can ruin paint so, the only option in using it is to cut it off, pull the fork out and drown the tube from the bottom hole, up-side-down. And if I go that direction if the ammonia does not, I'd be half way to hack-sawing it from inside which, in these cases, are two options I don't want to do because, both will etch the inside of tube. Drilling is a guarantee you're going to side wall the inside unless ya gots a kick butt, big A. drill press, lath or mill to get in there straighter than an arrow. .

None of my objections to the common ways to do this is really, much of a big deal, seriously, like a few scratches inside the fork tube is that important? Not!

Yet, when me gets to play wit junk, me likes to solve it wit out further injury. eliminate potential methods until there's nothing left to try.

I been expecting maybe, somebody knew of an electric shock/charge  thingy that gets the atoms and or electrons moving around er somtin. get em jiggy and then slam it wit hammer. Atoms or electrons:  'You make me feel like dancing'. [grin] "*Galvanic corrosion* is an electrochemical process in which one metal corrodes preferentially to another when both metals are in electrical contact, in the presence of an electrolyte. This same *galvanic* reaction is exploited in primary batteries to generate an electrical voltage. "


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## momo608

I would say the heat is critical. I have an acetylene torch which gets things super hot fast which is good if you don't want to heat other things up like the painted surfaces. The expansion and contraction of the parts as they heat up and cool is important. I suppose if I did not have an effective torch, I consider a propane torch not very effective. I'd cut off the top of the stem leaving as much as you can to separate it from the rest of the bike frame. Clamp the remaining part of the stem in a vice , then use your propane torch along the length of the steer tube. After cutting off the top of the stem, I'm not sure how big of a hole you have to work with but maybe you could figure out a way to cut a split in the stem tube so it can be squeezed inward. I know they make thin blades for sawzall's but you probably don't have one of those either. 

The chemical methods don't sound very good to me, but at least if you have the fork off the bike you can figure out ways to keep the chemicals off the exposed painted parts.


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## Jeff54

momo608 said:


> I would say the heat is critical. I have an acetylene torch which gets things super hot fast which is good if you don't want to heat other things up like the painted surfaces. The expansion and contraction of the parts as they heat up and cool is important. I suppose if I did not have an effective torch, I consider a propane torch not very effective. I'd cut off the top of the stem leaving as much as you can to separate it from the rest of the bike frame. Clamp the remaining part of the stem in a vice , then use your propane torch along the length of the steer tube. After cutting off the top of the stem, I'm not sure how big of a hole you have to work with but maybe you could figure out a way to cut a split in the stem tube so it can be squeezed inward. I know they make thin blades for sawzall's but you probably don't have one of those either.
> 
> The chemical methods don't sound very good to me, but at least if you have the fork off the bike you can figure out ways to keep the chemicals off the exposed painted parts.




Ahh yeah da good old trusty rusty sawzall, nope, I lent it to a thief years ago, and since, haven't been in the business enough to deserve another. [grin] Albeit I got friends wit em. Yet, you can not control one well enough, so, a blade in the hand and elbow grease  is worth 10 sawzalls in the bush.

But , yeah, all I got is dumb, in this case, benzene torch, which, you just convinced me would be a waste of time. .

Also mounted on a vise, has got to be a little tough too because, that vise will suck the heat away.. Spect ya gotta practically melt the aluminum quick!

Where's the bike geek, psycho genius when ya needs em eh, picking buggers?


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## island schwinn

drill it out


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## Schwinn499

....


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## momo608

Jeff54 said:


> Ahh yeah da good old trusty rusty sawzall, nope, I lent it to a thief years ago, and since, haven't been in the business enough to deserve another. [grin] Albeit I got friends wit em. Yet, you can not control one well enough, so, a blade in the hand and elbow grease  is worth 10 sawzalls in the bush.
> 
> But , yeah, all I got is dumb, in this case, benzene torch, which, you just convinced me would be a waste of time. .
> 
> Also mounted on a vise, has got to be a little tough too because, that vise will suck the heat away.. Spect ya gotta practically melt the aluminum quick!
> 
> Where's the bike geek, psycho genius when ya needs em eh, picking buggers?




If you clamp the steer tube in a vice you can carefully sawzall it. As long as stuff is not jumping around, a sawzall can be very controllable. I"d get close and do the rest by hand. But yeah, do it all by hand. By the time you finish borrowing stuff and getting back to the job, you probably could have finished it. I would at least try heating it. Clamp the stem in the vice and heat the steer tube. It should get plenty hot. Throw a wet rag on the painted fork for good measure. 

You're the bike geek genius, this stuff is a hassle for anyone.


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## Jeff54

momo608 said:


> If you clamp the steer tube in a vice you can carefully sawzall it. As long as stuff is not jumping around, a sawzall can be very controllable. I"d get close and do the rest by hand. But yeah, do it all by hand. By the time you finish borrowing stuff and getting back to the job, you probably could have finished it. I would at least try heating it. Clamp the stem in the vice and heat the steer tube. It should get plenty hot. Throw a wet rag on the painted fork for good measure.
> 
> You're the bike geek genius, this stuff is a hassle for anyone.





LOL no worries, no hurry I got plenty buggers fer picking till I get tired of wasting time and attack the beast. 

Besides, with a bit of luck, a better bugger head will solve it with an ingeniously devised system to relive us all of da pain and hassle.


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## Eric94TA

Could you remove a hacksaw blade from the saw body, put it down the tube, reconnect, and saw through the inside in a couple of places?


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## Jeff54

Eric94TA said:


> Could you remove a hacksaw blade from the saw body, put it down the tube, reconnect, and saw through the inside in a couple of places?





Yes I could Eric, as that's the current final solution, we've discussed this. [edit: wait, no you can not attach a blade through the fork, it's closed ended} And I also have a little handle that attaches a blade at one end only, just for similar types of cutting like this.  I knew this before creating this topic. , But, that will etch and scratch the inside of the steel fork.  I'm trying to take it up a level, hunting for the 'easier' or none invasive way.  At least continue hunting until I get tired and cut it out. In the mean time,  there's always hope, [grin]


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## Schwinn499

Is this thread a joke?


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## W2J

seems I have a sticky keyboard key.think I'll fix it real quick with a blast of air.


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## W2J

I think this is a serious thread,but the OP is just the type that asks 10 different opinions and doesn't consider any of them.the time spent posting this and that could've been more than sufficient time to fix the issue.


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## Jeff54

W2J said:


> I think this is a serious thread,but the OP is just the type that asks 10 different opinions and doesn't consider any of them.the time spent posting this and that could've been more than sufficient time to fix the issue.




In my own defense W2j, if ya read the very first post, I mentioned nearly all of the possibilities  then.. I had already *exhausted* what info I could from this site and the net. so in all seriousness, lets try discovering what is not verses turning into some personal attack, okey dokey. . ;o


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## Schwinn499

Plug the stem bolt hole turn everything upside down, get some PB blaster or the similar down the steertube, and fill that sob up so the stem is submerged in fluid. Wait a week, but smack the stem with a hammer couple times a day, and spray a little in the top of the steertube as well. Dump it out. Put a spare hub or just a solid axle in a vice, bolt the fork to it. Get a 10"+ adjustable wrench or something on the head of the stem (assuming you didn't cut the head off already and lose your leverage) and crank on it.....or dont.


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## rustjunkie

If you have a big vise mounted to a sturdy bench you can clamp the stem in it then use a long pipe as leverage just under the crown between the fork legs.
I've removed many this way with no damage to the fork, and often the stem has been fine too.


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## Jeff54

rustjunkie said:


> If you have a big vise mounted to a sturdy bench you can clamp the stem in it then use a long pipe as leverage just under the crown between the fork legs.
> I've removed many this way with no damage to the fork, and often the stem has been fine too.





That's a high probability for success. I think it's what a may have done as a kid too. Un fortunately, in 2010 I moved too Florida, and downsized bigly, so do not have a big vise anymore.. And since, have begun to realize that, the downsizing idea which I wouldn't be working on things as much as before. That must have been a delusion, entertaining the idea that, just because you've moved to a tiny 1,300 sq ft home, verses the 4,500,  doesn't mean you'll be changing your old habits. [grin]


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## Schwinn499

Ahhh!....or dont.....so it IS a joke! 

Apparently "electric shock charge" and a "bike geek psycho genius" are more household than a little experience, common sense, and little patience...go figure. Just cause you dont have the proper tools does not mean you "exausted all the info on this site." It just means you dont have the means to execute them. A vice is I work with my hands 101, so forgive us for assuming you were equiped to do what your asking everyone for advice on how to do. Claiming youve done everything was a little misleading, as youve yet to even chock the thing up in a vice.


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## momo608

rustjunkie said:


> If you have a big vise mounted to a sturdy bench you can clamp the stem in it then use a long pipe as leverage just under the crown between the fork legs.
> I've removed many this way with no damage to the fork, and often the stem has been fine too.




I guess at this point we are talking past the idea that the original author of this thread intends on fixing his bike.

I wouldn't be so gung ho on sticking something between the forks for leverage, at least not going animal on it. A wood 2x4 might be better. Anyway, I assume this bike has the tubular fork and those damn things are awfully bendy and can easily be dented or knocked out of alignment with little force.   They are fragile forks. At the very least before any prying, the axle dropouts should be tied together with a block of wood with screws to keep them from spreading. I personally would not exert any force beyond what I could muster with my bare hands. Even at that I would be extremely careful.


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## island schwinn

Just drill it out.


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## rhenning

Island Schwinn if he doesn't have a vise why would he have better tools such as a large drill bit and a drill big enough drill to use it.  Roger


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## island schwinn

rhenning said:


> Island Schwinn if he doesn't have a vise why would he have better tools such as a large drill bit and a drill big enough drill to use it.  Roger




how about send it here and I'll drill it out.that make you happy,Roger?
and by the way,I don't have a vise,but have removed several stuck stems and seatposts using my method.


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## momo608

I was scratching my head on this drill it out thing myself. You would need a drill bit in the 7/8" range, that's a BIG drill bit. To think you could hold on to the fork and drill that out by hand sounds a little difficult to say the least. I was imagining milling machines for something like this. That drill bit with a hand drill powerful enough to drive it, would rip that fork right out of yours hands once it started digging in. Am I missing something?


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## island schwinn

you start with a small bit and drill in larger increments until the metal is super thin.try and take it all in one bite and you'll have problems every time.i did one with the fork removed and placed between 2 blocks of wood and wrapped in a soft towel.stood on the board and drilled SLOWLY.
and the heat from drilling helps break loose the stuck object.a couple times it got so thin,the remaining piece just fell out.


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## GTs58

Just give it more cow bell. Once you get that cow bell really going, that stem will dance itself right out of the steer tube! Frank Zappa has a different method, but cow bell works every time.


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## Jeff54

rhenning said:


> Island Schwinn if he doesn't have a vise why would he have better tools such as a large drill bit and a drill big enough drill to use it.  Roger



Oh no, I did not say that I don't have a vise, just said, the "big", rather, good one is left behind.  I down sized, not dumped. and I also have a up too 3/4" bit.. Yet, funny thing too, I've already said in this thread that, drilling was not an option I'd want to do. I know too well that free handing with a drill bit to hone it out, just like the sawing, will scratch the crap out of the fork tube.

Or lets say, at least with my F-ed up,  hands


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## Jeff54

momo608 said:


> I guess at this point we are talking past the idea that the original author of this thread intends on fixing his bike.
> 
> I wouldn't be so gung ho on sticking something between the forks for leverage, at least not going animal on it. A wood 2x4 might be better. Anyway, I assume this bike has the tubular fork and those damn things are awfully bendy and can easily be dented or knocked out of alignment with little force.   They are fragile forks. At the very least before any prying, the axle dropouts should be tied together with a block of wood with screws to keep them from spreading. I personally would not exert any force beyond what I could muster with my bare hands. Even at that I would be extremely careful.





Yeah you're right momo, I was in Schwinn default mode, 'Ashtabula type forks' on that thought, but yup these are tube forks,, , that plan, " long pipe as leverage just under the crown between the fork legs" whether pipe or wood to hold   ain't gonna fly.


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## Jeff54

Winner, Winner! Chicken dinner!

I've been spraying WD-40 for all this time. Smacking it around from time to time with 3 pound sledge. Leave it for a few days too week spray again, smack every few weeks and finally, last week I smacked it down about 1/4" and after another 20 or so hits got it to slide sideways. It was still too tough so I soaked and waited.  Today I was just  going to give it another soak and try later on But, I decided to give it a go.

Wasn't the 1st time I'd tried smacking it up or down but, finally, 1/4" was plenty last week, and today, more sledge hits back and forth  then   more turning  with 20" pipe wrench until lose, and squiggle it by hand then, out on next photo! I took high resolution photos so you can see the area that was holding it, just around an inch or so.

Other than the stem getting beat, and ridiculously time consuming!  'None invasive'


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## momo608

Now that's patience. Congratulations!


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## Jeff54

momo608 said:


> Now that's patience. Congratulations!





And now I've discovered one of the reasons, at least on a Schwinn, the AVA is known as the death stem. Well actually 2. 1. obviously why it had to come off because, the lower end of the clamp broke. Yeah I bet that was fun for whoever that broke on, maybe knock your teeth out when the handle bar dumped. . Yet #2 is a bit of a surprise. if you look close in my second photo there's a ring gouged around it about 2" above the red rust section, which had been  right where it was positioned at the top of the fork tube. (can be seen when clicking the photo to enlarge)

When I first tried to fit the like new replacement stem it was just a little tight and had to wiggle it back out. And what was worse, it came back out with a crap load of scratches. Apparently, and quite obviously what happened was that Schwinn had never deburred or shaved the inside edge of the top of fork tube, after their pipe cutter creased the top edge while cutting it.   Any Plummer who has cut pipe knows this; that the pressure of the cutting edge of a pipe cutter will cause a slight indent into the top edge of the inside. . Some times it can be sharp enough to slice your fingers.

Whelp, Schwinn gets the blame had this 'death stem' broken at the top of the fork tube, there's a thin, sharped edged cut into the stem from this and scratched the crap out of my replacement. The cut into the original stem was death just waiting to happen.  I could imagine a class action suite too, had peps been advised of this years ago.

It only took a few seconds to deburr that dam thing.


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## harpon

We used to call those stem shifters "De-nutters" because if you went over the bars the nads might be left hanging on em.
Guess I probably had one of the "death stems" on my first 10 speed '68 Varsity.  I don't recall, but I never liked stems with the opening to the front.




Before the best damn header I ever took!


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## Jeff54

harpon said:


> We used to call those stem shifters "De-nutters" because if you went over the bars the nads might be left hanging on em. Guess I probably had one of the "death stems" on my first 10 speed '68 Varsity.  I don't recall, but I never liked stems with the opening to the front.
> Before the best damn header I ever took!



de-nutters almost sounds familiar, but, going over the bars? It's been all those years for me as well but, me thinks de-nutters would refer if you rode somebody on the handle bars, eh?

And those shifters, Yesterday I finally got to take my Super sport out for a test ride,  it's been a long, long time since I've ridden any Schwinn 10 speed.  but I remembered during the test ride, they were my favorites back in the day, and except, unless you're racing and always in the down position the handle bars put you, near the bottom bar,  I don't understand why they'd be any other place, even today on bikes. My 2 Treks have them on bottom bar and after refreshing during that test, them bottom bar positions on my Trek's suck. I'm tempted to rob the Super sport's shifters to stick em on a Trek. .  [grin]

As for your Varsity, it does look like AVA stem in your photo however, I would not expect that because, as I recall Varsities got the steal stuff. Yet, sure enough inside the catalog photo of Varsity   these are AVA, edit: [Look like  AVA's}  stems on 68's and they also appear to be even on their lowset priced 10 speeds: Collegiate, go figure?







1968 Colligate:


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## Metacortex

Jeff54 said:


> As for your Varsity, it does look like AVA stem in your photo however, I would not expect that because, as I recall Varsities got the steal stuff.




With a few exceptions from 1966 through mid-1970 the Varsity and Collegiate came with this alloy Schwinn Approved stem:





Starting in mid-'70 they changed to a forged steel stem.



> Whelp, Schwinn gets the blame had this 'death stem' broken at the top of the fork tube, there's a thin, sharped edged cut into the stem from this and scratched the crap out of my replacement. The cut into the original stem was death just waiting to happen. I could imagine a class action suite too, had peps been advised of this years ago.




Check out the damage on this stem, I would be afraid to ride on it: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=151912873049


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## Jeff54

Metacortex said:


> With a few exceptions from 1966 through mid-1970 the Varsity and Collegiate came with this alloy Schwinn Approved stem:
> Starting in mid-'70 they changed to a forged steel stem.
> Check out the damage on this stem, I would be afraid to ride on it:




Ah, that splains it then, why they look like AVA's.

Humm, whelp I was not riding or owning in the mid 1970's, plus by then, I didn't want Schwinn's no more. I could swear though, that by 1970 of my biggest desire for my Varsity or Continental was up grading to an alloy stem.. Guess I'm mistaken. Alternatively, maybe it was the up-grade to a death stem I wanted. {grin}

Ebay "Schwinn  approved" AVA 'look-a-like' stem,,  Say, does Pacific cycles support Schwinn's old manufacturing defects warranties? Because Yup, that's a dam Personal injury  liability suite on Schwinn for failure to deberr the fricken fork tube, top end,  just waiting to happen.


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## Metacortex

Jeff54 said:


> I could swear though, that by 1970 of my biggest desire for my Varsity or Continental was up grading to an alloy stem.. Guess I'm mistaken.




I believe Schwinn changed from the alloy to the forged steel stem after the annual summer shutdown in July 1970 (mid-1970, not "mid-70s"). However  even after the Varsity changed to the forged steel stem, '72 and later Varsities with the large 26" frame came with the same alloy stem as used on the Continental.


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