# lacing wheels



## militarymonark (Nov 16, 2006)

well i learned how to spoke a wheel today by a friend of mine that used to work for schwinn back in the 50's, he showed me how to true them and spoke them. so now all I have to do is practice on all the wheels i have and i'll have it down pretty good.


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## Oldbikes (Nov 16, 2006)

Please share the "trade secrets" to spoking a wheel!  There's always an easier/better way to do something...  

Thanks,
Alan


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## militarymonark (Nov 16, 2006)

well i'll tell you what the best I can do is take detailed pictures not missing a step then each picture i'll describe what is involved in each step. now there is a website about spoking wheels but last time I tried using that site I got all messed up. But the guy I learned from had the fasted time in spoking a wheel from schwinn and he has the certificate to show for it, of course that was in the 50's but it was like in under 5 minuites. This guy is good i just stumbled upon him at an antique shop in town. So now I have some s2 rims i can finally finish and make them look real good. It's easier than I think, I just need to practice on them otherwise Im gonna forget. really I need to write it down. but I prob wont lol and have to call him up again. we'll see. I'll post pics soon maybe tomorrow since I have some time to spoke the front wheel.


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## J.E (Nov 17, 2006)

Please do.I just bought a trueing stand but need to learn how to use it......LOL


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## militarymonark (Nov 21, 2006)

ok I have the pictures taken but i haven't had time to post them up but Im gonna see if i can get the pics today on my computer


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## Oldbikes (Nov 21, 2006)

Cool, looking forward.  Thanks in advance.

Alan


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## J.E (Nov 23, 2006)

Thanks.Looking forward to seeing the pictures.


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## militarymonark (Nov 24, 2006)

my buddy has them on his computer and Im waiting for him to get home from visiting his parents so that he can send me the pictures so I can post them up I tried the other day but he said he had other things to do so i couldn't get them but soon I promise.


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## Sean (Nov 24, 2006)

http://www.bunchobikes.com/repair2.htm

That helped me out!


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## supper15fiets (Nov 26, 2006)

*spoking wheels*

hey guys ,
yes it's that black sheep from Holland ,
okay here's a link for spoke a wheel , everthing is in dutch but i think the pictures says enough , give it a try , count the holes between the spokes in the picture , it speaks for it selfs.

good luck!

Ronald


http://www.m-gineering.nl/spaak.htm


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## militarymonark (Dec 2, 2006)

well i just got back from MD and now i can re-take a couple pics that came out really blurry so i'll have them up in a jiffy


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2006)

ok sorry it took so long, i started a new job  so I haven't had time to sit down and do this but I have it completed 
Step 1 drop the spoke in any hole you desire like the picture. when threading the nipples put the top of the threaded spoke to the bottom of the groove (where a flat tip screwdriver could go) doing this consistently makes sure the hub is perfectly centered


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2006)

Step 2 now after you have put your spoke in the hub  you have to put it in the rim obviously but when you put the spoke in the rim you need to make sure your putting it in the right hole. If you look at the rim you'll see holes closest to either side of the rim like in the picture there will be a bottom row and a top row. Where ever you started your spoke on the hub you would put the spoke in the hole with the corresponding row, for ex. if I put the spoke in the top of the hub like the picture of step on I would want to put the spoke in the top row of the rim.


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2006)

once you have figured out what row to start from you now want to put the spokes in the holes every forth hole or every other top row hole. The same goes with the hub, every spoke you put in should be ever other hole.


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2006)

now after doing that step all the way around you should get something like this


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2006)

Step 3 Putting in the remaining spokes for the top row. Now instead of dropping the spoke down like the first step you need to bring the spoke up so you dont see the end of the spoke. Shown here in the next picture (any questions please ask for a picture). Then you need to cross over 4 spokes and put it in the empty top row hole. You can start on any top row hole. Just be consistant and go in an clockwise or counter clockwise motion what every is comfortable for you.


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2006)

now you should have some thing that looks like this


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2006)

basically repeat the same steps on the other side and you should have something that looks like a threaded wheel.


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2006)

anyspecfic questions or pictures needed please ask


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2006)

and if this is any help to anyone be kind to bump my reputation up if  you feel necessary


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## Bernie (Dec 19, 2006)

Thanks for the info! I am just getting into the hobby and am learning to straighten bent rims but when i find my ride this will be extremly helpful.


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## militarymonark (Dec 19, 2006)

so are you looking for a bike I do have a straight bar frame with fork that would be great and actually I have some fenders that I probably could send your way too so let me know I'll give you a price. I do have monark frames and girls schwinn frames and possibly a bike that I could let go so let me know my prices are usually pretty low


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## militarymonark (Dec 19, 2006)

no sorry just post war


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## militarymonark (Dec 19, 2006)

soon to come how to true a wheel


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## militarymonark (Apr 7, 2008)

well i figured out how to true a wheel, but not a drop center for some reason im having problems doing that. I"ll post up some pics with directions in the next week.


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## Boris (Aug 20, 2011)

*Lacing other side of wheel*

Sorry for what is going to appear like a dumb question, but what hole and to where do I begin lacing on the second side. I've looked at some other wheels that I have and I have to admit that I'm easily confused. I need a formula or drawing for the first spoke on the second side.


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## bricycle (Aug 20, 2011)

I've done 31 wheels from scratch, and that is the hardest for me too. I just put one in and bring it to the hole which it fits to best (barely will stay in the spoke hole). Truing is easy. Patrick will set us straight.


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## Boris (Aug 20, 2011)

Thanks Brian-
I'll give that a try tomorrow (and any other pictures & ideas that come along). But, I've tilted my elbow just a wee bit too much this evening.
Dave


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## militarymonark (Aug 20, 2011)

yah I should get to that eventually, I'll see about that this week I might build a set of wheels


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## Boris (Aug 20, 2011)

Thanks, I'd like that. It should be helpful as a reference. The part about lacing up the first side was excellent.


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## militarymonark (Aug 20, 2011)

def building wheels this week putting together this bike


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## Boris (Aug 25, 2011)

Hopefully you'll be posting photos and instructions on where to begin when you start lacing up the other side.


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## militarymonark (Aug 25, 2011)

ok I'll do that also, I'll prob get to it this weekend


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## Boris (Aug 25, 2011)

Thank you sir.


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## bricycle (Aug 25, 2011)

Dave Marko said:


> Thanks, I'd like that. It should be helpful as a reference. The part about lacing up the first side was excellent.




Yea, Nice job Patrick...


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## chitown (Aug 26, 2011)

militarymonark said:


> and if this is any help to anyone be kind to bump my reputation up




View attachment 25884


Thanks Patrick. Nice walk through.


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## militarymonark (Aug 30, 2011)

alright here we go watch these in order 
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/cosmo9o/?action=view&current=M4H01968.mp4
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/cosmo9o/?action=view&current=M4H01970.mp4
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/cosmo9o/?action=view&current=M4H01971.mp4
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/cosmo9o/?action=view&current=M4H01973.mp4
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/cosmo9o/?action=view&current=M4H01975.mp4


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## HIGGINSFOREVER (Sep 1, 2011)

How about a rear wheel,They seem to be a lot harder.Something about the drive side and dish side.Also feeding the spokes thru the sprocket can be problem.Anybody try a rear wheel.


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## Talewinds (Sep 1, 2011)

HIGGINSFOREVER said:


> How about a rear wheel,They seem to be a lot harder.Something about the drive side and dish side.Also feeding the spokes thru the sprocket can be problem.Anybody try a rear wheel.




Rear hubs are intended to be laced as a hollow shell. The large notch that mfgs. built into the sprockets, although very considerate, was only intended to be used to help aid the replacement of a broken spoke.

Rear hubs on a cruiser are easy peasy as we don't have to worry about "dish", it's the road bikes with multi speed cassettes that get tricky, as the drive-side spokes get laced vertically, or in the same plane as the rim to accommodate space for the cassette.


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## militarymonark (Sep 1, 2011)

the hub I laced up is a rear hub just with the guts out.


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## militarymonark (Mar 24, 2012)

bumpity bump bump


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## Silver Chief (Mar 24, 2012)

Looks like I'll have to give this a try shortly.


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## zephyrblau (Jan 4, 2013)

this is something I learned how to do back in the 70s. (yes, I'm older than dirt) I figured with a little hand holding I could get back up to speed, but it appears as though the photo links above are not current. not to worry... Youtube to the rescue  
here's an example. I'm sure there are other / better ones; 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTb3x5VO69Y

I'd always heard that the road wheels offered by the now departed Wheel Smith (Palo Alto) were built by "robots". 
back in the 80s this was pretty scary stuff, but last year I bought a 20 year old set of those wheels & they're still pretty nice !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYEv2NDdzE


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## Harvest Cyclery (Apr 13, 2013)

militarymonark said:


> alright here we go watch these in order
> http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/cosmo9o/?action=view&current=M4H01968.mp4
> http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/cosmo9o/?action=view&current=M4H01970.mp4
> http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/cosmo9o/?action=view&current=M4H01971.mp4
> ...




militarymonark,

 It is super cool your learning to build wheels, not a lot of people step up to the plate on a skill like this.  I watched all your videos, cool that your helping others learn the art.  I noticed a few things while watching you lace up this wheel.  

It looks like your not crossing your outbound spokes under the final intersecting spoke. 3 cross should go Over, Over, Under. 4 Cross should go Over, Over, Over, Under.  The cross is what really adds stiffness to wheel, very important on coaster brake wheels

Also, not required, but definitely helpful, try to have your inbound spokes on opposing flanges going opposite directions, otherwise your wheel is biased toward drive direction or the opposite of drive direction.

Last thing, try to line up your valve hole to it is not in the middle of two intersecting spokes, this makes it easier to access the valve when inflating you tubes and makes everything much cleaner in general.

Sheldon Brown's key spoke method is the best when it comes to lacing wheels, also a try to match relative spoke tension before worrying about truing, old steel balloner rims are pretty stiff and can be deceptively straight before adding tension on the spokes.  

All of these suggestions are just that, suggestions, I have seen plenty of stock wheels that were not laced the way I described and held up just fine over the years, however, I have destroyed ALOT of coaster brake rear wheels and would rather just build something stiff and strong from the get go.

And where the heck did you find that old Park truing stand? That thing looks early, I've never seen one like that and now I am very jealous. 

Hope this helps.

-AJ


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Apr 13, 2013)

The last time that I laced up some wheels was in 1974.
The Fiamme Yellow & Red label wheels are still on my Italian racing bicycle.
I laced up double-butted stainless steel spokes on the Campagnolo hubs.
I was lucky to have two best friends that happened to work in the oldest bicycle shop on the west coast. They both supervised my lacing at the bicycle shop.
The Wilson Cyclery originally sold Harley Davidsons and bicycles in the early 1900's.
The town of Visalia was founded in 1854.


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## Harvest Cyclery (Apr 16, 2013)

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html


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## MaxGlide (Apr 29, 2013)

*The first spoke inserted is key*

The spoke you start with is the key. You usually start at the first spoke hole to the right of the tube stem hole. When done lacing, you want the stem to be in the middle of the spokes where they go straight up, not where they cross over the stem. If the spokes cross over the stem the will be in the way when you need to pump up your tires.


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## Gary Mc (Apr 29, 2013)

MaxGlide said:


> The spoke you start with is the key. You usually start at the first spoke hole to the right of the tube stem hole. When done lacing, you want the stem to be in the middle of the spokes where they go straight up, not where they cross over the stem. If the spokes cross over the stem the will be in the way when you need to pump up your tires.




The only thing I can add is start with the first spoke hole to the right of the tube stem hole closest to the side of the rim you are lacing first.  I have laced rims where the first hole was on the back side of the rim from the side I was lacing, such as Ghisallo's.  In this case you start with the second hole to the right of the tube stem hole.  I agree this is the key as well as remembering over, over, under for 3 cross or over, over, over, under for 4 cross pattern lacing.


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## HIGGINSFOREVER (May 13, 2013)

Talewinds said:


> Rear hubs are intended to be laced as a hollow shell. The large notch that mfgs. built into the sprockets, although very considerate, was only intended to be used to help aid the replacement of a broken spoke.
> 
> Rear hubs on a cruiser are easy peasy as we don't have to worry about "dish", it's the road bikes with multi speed cassettes that get tricky, as the drive-side spokes get laced vertically, or in the same plane as the rim to accommodate space for the cassette.




Are the rear spokes the same length as the front 10 5/8


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## rustjunkie (Jun 13, 2013)

HIGGINSFOREVER said:


> Are the rear spokes the same length as the front 10 5/8




(generally) yes


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## Harvest Cyclery (Feb 20, 2014)

HIGGINSFOREVER said:


> Are the rear spokes the same length as the front 10 5/8




It's all depends on the height of he hub flange and the distance from the flange to the locknut.  Every hub is different.  All of which can be measured and computed for exact spoke length.

-AJ


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## dougfisk (Feb 20, 2014)

HIGGINSFOREVER said:


> Are the rear spokes the same length as the front 10 5/8




with a *4cross*, yes


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Feb 20, 2014)

dougfisk said:


> with a *4cross*, yes




?.. Four cross?!... Haha kidding Doug


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## vincev (May 17, 2014)

Front is probably different.It depends on the hub diameter.There are only a few factors for determining spoke lengths but they are critical.Each wheel rebuild could be different ,Wheels can use two different spoke sizes on one wheel depending on the hub type. Here is the link I use to determine length.  http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/


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## Bike Boy Wa (Jul 7, 2014)

*Wheels*

I have built probably a thousand wheels in my years in the bike shops and was trained by one of Eddy Merckx's team mechanics too ...

Wheels are fun once you get the knack. Never cross over the valve channel ...... A spoke driver is an invaluable tool. Oil the nipples. be patient.....


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## Bike Boy Wa (Jul 7, 2014)

Online spoke calculators ! what a dream .... When I began doing wheels each shop had its own secret bible of spoke lengths written down ..... Then came the Wheelsmith spoke calculation system you could buy ..... Changed everything ....


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## Beau (Mar 4, 2015)

Here is an excellent way to measure and calculate spokes. My friend set this page up. 

http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/fullcalc 

If you don't know what something means Google can help, or I can check back. 

The most important things I can add are to lube the nipples and spoke threads before you lace. Some use a locking compound, I don't. I use triFlow and have done 100's of wheels with that. 

Be consistent. I do everything in quarter turns. Keeping the flats of the nipples parallel with the rim. 

A lot of antique wheels did not have the last cross of the spoke go under. The wheel will be stronger of if cross under the last spoke. 

When you first lace the wheel, only thread the spoke nipples on to until the last couple threads are showing. This will give you a base line to start by. 

Once you think you have the wheel trued, take it out of the stand, put it horizontal with the axle on the bench or floor and "lightly" press down. You will hear 'PING'. rotate the wheel and do this a bit until it goes away, and do it on both sides. Then true it again.

Don't cross the valve hole. Also, if you want to be real picky, make sure you can see the logo on the hub through the valve hole!


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## Tikibar (Jan 26, 2016)

Great information, thank you!

Do we have to make this face while lacing the wheel?


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## militarymonark (Jan 26, 2016)

yes, most def lol


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## spoker (Jan 26, 2016)

the key spoke is deterimed how the wheel is drilled,put your key spoke in the hub flange facing you,from the outside in so you have the end of the spoke on the outside of the hub,the little round end of the spoke will be facing out[that is the way the first 9 on one side and 9 on the other side go,find the valve stem hole,look at the spoke holes in the rim,if the hole in the rim that corresponds with your hub flange put the key spoke in that hole,if the hole is the 2nd one from the valve hole put your spoke in there,now look down at the other side of the flange and put a spoke in that flange one hole behind you first spoke,put this spoke in the rim hole just behind your key[starting this way will make the 2 spokes next to the valve hole straight so its ezer to but in air]now cont 3 holes away from your first spoke and in stall the second spoke,do the same for the rest of the spokes on your 1rst side then do the same on the other side,you will now have 18 spokes in,twist the hub clockwies[shake the rim around so the spokes seat]now feed a spke from the inside out,go the opositedirection of the already installed spokes,cross over 2 spokes and under the 3rd spoke and install the spoke in the rim that matches the side your working on,keep repeating till the 3rd and 4th set are in,after you read this go to shelden brown and see his steps,hopfully my basic instructions will help you to under stand his better,once you get the hang of it its ez


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## STL Iver (May 18, 2016)

Good photos. Unless I missed it you didn't mention the valve hole. You need to start your second row so the valve hole is "open" and you don't have spokes in the way when airing a tire. It doesn't affect the strength of the wheel, just best practice.
Building wheels is not difficult if you start with the correct spoke length. Install all spokes from one hub flange to the same side of rim.Also need to be sure each spoke is tightened the same number of turns.  
Truing a wheel takes practice. Tighten the side you wish to move toward. Take several small adjustments instead of one or two large ones.


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## OldSkipTooth (Aug 24, 2016)

This is the simplest video on lacing a wheel I have seen, and she has a sweet voice!


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## aasmitty757 (Aug 24, 2016)

OldSkipTooth said:


> This is the simplest video on lacing a wheel I have seen, and she has a sweet voice!



Can you share a link to this video ? It's also the simplest one I've ever seen. Thanks for sharing it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pedal_junky (Aug 25, 2016)

aasmitty757 said:


> Can you share a link to this video ? It's also the simplest one I've ever seen. Thanks for sharing it!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Yes, agree. Here ya go.

Watch "Without the bull. How to build a 36 spoke wheel." on YouTube





Edit- Well, for some reason I can't copy paste the link now.


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## rustjunkie (Aug 25, 2016)

h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIU6mi0K4Y4

remove the space after the first "h", or in the viewer above click the "youtube " button and you can watch at youtube and get the link there.
You can also right-click the "youtube" button and copy the link location


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## aasmitty757 (Aug 25, 2016)

Thank You!


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## bairdco (Aug 25, 2016)

That is a good video. That's how I build wheels. But I learned 36 years ago. I was 11, and took me two days to figure that out. I think I cried a few times. But hey, I was 11.


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## StoneWoods (Aug 30, 2016)

The first wheel I did was a disaster. For starters the rim should have been thrown away it was so bad I straightened it with the torch. Then once it was spoked (same rim same spolkes same hub) I had about an extra 1/2 inch on every spolke.


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## eeapo (Aug 30, 2016)

Hey thanks for the lesson on how to spoke a wheel, the pictures were a big help. I removed the spokes from a rim once but I numbered each spoke to correspond with the same number I wrote on the inside of the rim worked ok for me.


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## Glenn Rhein (Sep 11, 2016)

Thanks for all the info, I laced up my first set of wheels.
After assembling the wheels I took them to a local bike shop to For trueing
He said I should have put every third spoke under the first layer,  over, over under.
I came home with the wheels to change the spokes but all my other wheels are the same patten as you described.
What's up with that...


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## bairdco (Sep 11, 2016)

Over unders don't really matter. Lacing the top spoke under a bottom spoke at the last cross makes for a stiffer wheel, but it's not like the only proper way to do it.

Many new wheels that are machine laced don't do it.

And they're just as easy to true.

True-ing a wheel is easier, in my opinion, than lacing a wheel, and since you've learned how to put it together, you should learn how to make it straight. Saves you money,  time, and is something every bike rider should learn.


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## Intense One (Nov 3, 2016)

What happens when the first spoke hole to the left of the stem hole is down instead of up as in your example?  Do you do the steps backwards?


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Nov 3, 2016)

I always start with the valve stem hole 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## rustjunkie (Nov 3, 2016)

Fool-proof wheel building method:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Helpful and informative links:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheels.html

Has there yet been any scientific testing that proves interlacing spokes is of any structural benefit?

An interesting bit of info about the history of tying and soldering: 
http://yarchive.net/bike/tying-and-soldering.html


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## CrazyDave (Nov 3, 2016)

rustjunkie said:


> Has there yet been any scientific testing that proves interlacing spokes is of any structural benefit?



No.   (I hope someone proves me wrong, this interests me!)


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## pedal_junky (Nov 3, 2016)

CrazyDave said:


> No.   (I hope someone proves me wrong, this interests me!)



I think Sheldon Brown talks a bit about this topic of over over under not being any stronger than the standard pattern. I'm in the camp that doesn't go under the last cross. Finding an original wheelset that's over seventy years old and is still pretty darn true is proof enough for me. Sheldon Brown site has a ton of great info, but maybe too much when it comes to wheel building. I'd rather listen to that Aussie chick on the vid, especially when she talks about nipples.


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## SirMike1983 (Nov 3, 2016)

I learned the way Sheldon described on his page. I have found interlacing the spokes makes the wheels a bit more resistant to going out of true, which is probably due to the cross-bracing and lateral stability the interlacing brings. The posts above about it being unnecessary are also right; you don't have to do it. It helps a bit, but a perfectly good wheel can be built without it.

What does matter is using proper spoke washers if you're using the newer "long elbow" type spokes with a thinner flange hub. They're not expensive and will get you a much better seat in the flange than without the washers.

On some rims, a nipple/rim washer is a good idea. This is especially true of thinner rims, or rims with "folded" profiles at the holes. Many of the old Westwood/British rims came from the factory with oval washers at the nipples, for example. If you have an older, worn rim, flat nipple washers are also an option to reinforce the rim holes. Again, this stuff is not always necessary, but this is a good idea on some wheels. On some, you can just "lace and go". The last set I built was like that.


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## filmonger (Dec 15, 2016)

This is some good advice for Wood rims from Wheel Fanatyk......

*1) Wood rims are drilled for a specific pattern.* The holes are precisely aimed. The rims want a X3 pattern, you can stick a nipple into any hole and it will tell you unequivocally where the spoke needs to originate

Don’t worry about artistic and unique spoking patterns. Wood wheels deliver a knockout visual and the pattern really takes back seat.

Notice also, that the Cermenati’s are not obsessive about valve hole placement. That’s a mania from the modern era. Most of the time the hole will be placed between spokes that are angled away from it, affording maximum access to the valve. Sometimes, however, the valve won’t be in such a space. I know you might not prefer this, but let’s admit that valve access is still outstanding. It’s only a cosmetic issue. Pretend the Cermenati’s are your Zen wheel guides. Pretend they did this just to perturb you. Take a breath and relax. There you are. It’s 1925 and the road beckons. Don’t be distracted by valve hole drilling! 

*(2) Measure each rim with washers in place to determine ERD.* These are made by hand and you must confirm the spoke diameter for each. Before spoking the wheel, push all the washers into place. The smooth sides face out. They’re a snug fit. Just push them in carefully, pressing on one edge and then the other, with a blunt object, like a bladed screwdriver. They’re light gauge so don’t hit one with a punch if it doesn’t sit evenly. Take it out and try another. Striking it can make a deformed mess, as one edge of the washer can hang up on the wood.

*(3) Wood rims prefer less tension, such as 50-60kgf.* However, some builders use nearly modern tension on the Elegant and Sport models. Laminated hardwood is extremely rugged but not as stiff as aluminum. Part of the feel of wood rims is this deep strength combined with lower spoke tension; a formula that, unsurprisingly, is being seen more often these days with carbon fiber rims.

I received this comment from one of the most experienced builders I know, after he finished a set of Elegants:

Ric,

I just completed one of the wood wheels with uniformity as good as any carbon wheel. I took time to carefully true the wheel initially then perfectly balance tension at 40kg. Next I checked tension and trued the wheel before winding up to 70kg in two stages. At 70kg I kept the wheel straight within 0.007 inch laterally and 0.014 radially. Spoke tension is uniform within 3-5% between spokes. The wheel is beautiful ! I think the 70kg number is a sweet spot for those rims.

Rich

*(4) Wood rims respond to spoke tension more exactly than do aluminum rims.* This means unevenness in tension that an aluminum rim might not reveal, can cause untrueness with wood. Since the rims breathe, responding to temperature and humidity, some retruing is necessary. Unequal tensions will reveal themselves, if not immediately, later as slight wobbles. So the more consistent you begin, the less truing over time.

*(5) Wood rims have a several day to one-week period of settling in.* After resting for this stage, during which you can be riding, they’ll need some minor touchup. Even tension to start will minimize retruing, but some readjustment is inevitable. When I first learned to build, old timers said you should hang a custom wheel so it can settle. I tested that and came to believe it was superstition. Now, with wood, I can see where it originated. Aluminum is dead, 100% inert. Wood is dynamic. Even though the cells aren’t metabolizing, the material is responding. It absorbs moisture on humid days (harmless) and listens to the forces around it. Also give a really lively, cheerful ride. These rims came from happy, carefree trees!

Pay as much attention to tension uniformity (pluck neighboring spokes to find inequalities) as you already do to trueness.

*(6) After extended, hard riding, you may find tensions have gone down.*Has the rim shrunk? Are the washers sitting deeper in their seats? Has the wood at each nipple settled, become more dense? Perhaps a little of each. If you notice your tensions are lower (with deflated tire) and it’s been a few thousand miles, then add 1/2 – 1 full turn to each nipple. Few wood wheel owners ride long and hard on them to notice this. If you’re one of us, great!

*(7) Don’t obsess over trueness, either in the initial build or later after riding.* With aluminum rims, we’ve come to expect optically perfect rotation. This is possible because the rims are straight, thanks CNC brake surfaces, and stiff (more than wood). But such trueness is not important for your ride. Every tire is far less true and deforms continuously in use. Try and get your wood rims to +/- 1.0mm. This tolerance might be unacceptable for a high end, brand name aluminum wheel but it’s just fine for wood. And as the miles go by, don’t stop and retrue your wheels too often. Let them wander around like smart dogs. They won’t stray far from home.

If you notice untrueness, take a moment to make a quick inspection. Pluck spokes in the area to be sure none are completely loose or broken. Just don’t interrupt your ride for the sake of cosmetic trueness. Slip back into time, back before cell phones and stop lights.

*(8) As with aluminum rims, some thread compound is highly recommended.* I’m getting best results with Loctite 220, a lower strength version of the famous 290. Both of these are “after assembly” types, which means they wick into threads. Just put a fraction of a drop where the spoke disappears into the nipple. Loctite does the rest.

*(9) Gluing tubulars is the same as with aluminum but the adhesive is protected from brake heat, so the chance of losing a tire in a corner is far smaller.* Wood won’t absorb heat so the energy of braking can attack the brake shoe. But it won’t be able to migrate to the rim cement and soften it. Note, there’s no need to sand the rims before applying glue. Make sure the surface is clean of oil and dirt, but no need to roughen the surface. Ghisallo tubular rims have a wonderful radius to support tires. There’s abundant glue area. If you’re ever reborn as a tubular tire, make sure to request a Ghisallo rim. It’s tire heaven.

*(10) The Sport clincher rim does not have “hooked” beads for the tire.*Hooks appeared in the 1970’s to provide greater security at high pressures. The Sport is designed for no more than 4.5 bars (65 psi). Best results come from a generous sized tire (28-40C) with a light sidewall and wire bead. Folding tires are less dependable for bead diameter; I’d avoid them with wood. As far as riding a rims without bead hooks, don’t be skeptical. All automobile and motorcycle rims, for racing on and off road, have no hooks. If you mount your tire carefully, keeping the bead uniformly straight and making certain your inner tube is not pinched before inflation…then you’ll have great results.

*(11) Wood consumes brake pads because it won’t accept the heat that braking generates.* The pad melts at contact and makes a mess of the rim. Best to use pads with cork, leather, or wood. These are heat resistant and will last. I’m partial to the cork pads offered with Bontrager, Zipp, and Mad Fiber carbon rims.

Second best pad choice would be Swisstop Yellow. These are tough enough to last but still deposit some material on the rim. Cork is best.


----------



## Aelxmodeaus (Dec 16, 2016)

The method I prefer is almost the same. But involves lacing all the heads up spokes starting with the drive side first, then you can lace all the trailing heads down spokes weaving the heads up over the heads down on the final cross (usually 3x on 32 and 36 hole rims). 
As with anything there are lots of different ways to build a wheel. The article on Sheldon Brown has some good information, and a nice diagram illustrating the Jobst Brandt style. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html


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## Aelxmodeaus (Dec 16, 2016)

Intense One said:


> What happens when the first spoke hole to the left of the stem hole is down instead of up as in your example?  Do you do the steps backwards?View attachment 378399




Basically backwards. The first heads up spoke (key spoke) will lace to the left of the valve hole (looking at the wheel with the valve at six o clock) on the drive side. On the non drive side the first heads up spoke will be offset to the right of the key spoke in the hub flange, and lace to the next right side spoke hole in the rim.


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## blackhawknj (Feb 13, 2017)

I use _The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt. I have found his directions the clearest and easiest to follow.


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## GregG (Aug 23, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> Fool-proof wheel building method:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
> 
> Helpful and informative links:
> ...




15-20 years ago, I got into a discussion with Jobst Brandt on Usenet regarding the history of tying and soldering.  I found myself in a discussion regarding tying and soldering and was interested in learning if perhaps tying and soldering was an old-school method of interlacing that died after interlacing became the norm.  If memory serves, Jobst made it well known he was not a fan of the practice. and he reported that he had spent many hours in the lab measuring lateral deflection on all types of setups, including interlacing and tying / soldering.  His findings were that interlacing did reduce the amount of lateral deflection, while tying / soldering did little to justify the practice.  I don't have any archive or recall what group that was on to recall how much it actually reduced lateral deflection.  In practice, I lace my old Schwinn bombproof 26" steel rims without interlacing, and interlace all my new skinny aluminum 700c / 27" rims, and have had good luck both ways.


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## Pauliemon (Sep 1, 2017)

Interesting post. Try Sheldon Brown. His wheel building method seems to be the easiest. Always start your first spoke next to the valve hole. After lacing the first set rotate the hub away from the valve hole. This will insure that your valve stem will be between crosses. Try to get your spoke tensions equal. Tapping the spokes for equal sound is one way to get them equal. I'm half deaf so i use a tension meter. Although its not as critical on old or crusier bikes where speed or rough terrain are not a factor. Equal tension will keep it out of the truing stand after riding.


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## filmonger (Oct 24, 2017)

Basic info for starting wheel building.... pdf attached.


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## filmonger (Oct 24, 2017)




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## GTs58 (Oct 24, 2017)

filmonger said:


>




That just made my day. The Author used one my favorite words but he obviously doesn't know the meaning of it. *"If that happens, just unloosen this."*  Kinda like saying *hot water heater*.


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## Barnegatbicycles (Mar 30, 2018)

When you are a pro. Lol


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## mickeyc (Mar 30, 2018)

Barnegatbicycles said:


> When you are a pro. LolView attachment 779609




OMG!!!


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## SKPC (Mar 30, 2018)

I love wheels more than women, because I can true them if they get bent out of shape.    Just built another "rider" set up recently for my 1933  Flyer (below)  when it is not shod in its original wheels.   My 2-cents here is just do it as much as you can, because the more you build wheels, the better they generally get.....I am not sure there is any right or wrong way, but the more you do it, the more you tend to spend more money building light weight setups.   Light weight women aren't bad either. Faster..


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## TieDye (Aug 18, 2018)

Awesome!  Thank you!


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## falconer (Feb 5, 2019)

When you start the second side, does it matter which hole you choose? seems like it would. Im doing a wheel now


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## falconer (Feb 8, 2019)

When you start the second side, you cant just pick any hole though. You have 50-50 chance of getting it right. think about it...


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## SB Deluxe (Mar 15, 2019)

Thanks for all the pics, I am gonna practice it does seem pretty simple.


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## Sven (Apr 18, 2019)

Who laced the  drop center wheels for Murray built bicycles? I guess this is a drop center rim. 



I believe the correct method is over, over, under for a cross 3 pattern.





I have two sets of these wheels..all of them are laced this way. Was this a common practice ?


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## Barnegatbicycles (Apr 19, 2019)

Sven said:


> Who laced the  drop center wheels for Murray built bicycles? I guess this is a drop center rim. View attachment 982734
> I believe the correct method is over, over, under for a cross 3 pattern.
> View attachment 982735View attachment 982736
> I have two sets of these wheels..all of them are laced this way. Was this a common practice ?



The placement of the valve hole in the pattern is wrong, it makes it harder to get at. However on a lot of bikes 50s and before, (could be even later), the spoke patterns are under under under. Modern stuff is all under under over but idk when the change was.


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## Sven (Apr 21, 2019)

Barnegatbicycles said:


> The placement of the valve hole in the pattern is wrong, it makes it harder to get at. However on a lot of bikes 50s and before, (could be even later), the spoke patterns are under under under. Modern stuff is all under under over but idk when the change was.



okay , thanks for the insight.


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## Pauliemon (Apr 22, 2019)

Sven said:


> Who laced the  drop center wheels for Murray built bicycles? I guess this is a drop center rim. View attachment 982734
> I believe the correct method is over, over, under for a cross 3 pattern.
> View attachment 982735View attachment 982736
> I have two sets of these wheels..all of them are laced this way. Was this a common practice ?



They're machine built. Old school machine built didn't have a under cross (it's over, over, under). Modern machine built have a under cross. The other way to tell if wheels are machine built is they laced identical. That's because the machine inserts spokes on both flanges then flips it over and inserts the other spokes. Hand built are built mirror. The spokes are inserted one side of a flange then flipped over and inserted on the other flange. 



Identical 



Mirror
Hope this helps.


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## Sven (Apr 23, 2019)

Pauliemon said:


> They're machine built. Old school machine built didn't have a under cross (it's over, over, under). Modern machine built have a under cross. The other way to tell if wheels are machine built is they laced identical. That's because the machine inserts spokes on both flanges then flips it over and inserts the other spokes. Hand built are built mirror. The spokes are inserted one side of a flange then flipped over and inserted on the other flange.
> View attachment 985065
> Identical
> View attachment 985066
> ...



Thanks for the info.


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## Pauliemon (Apr 24, 2019)

Sven said:


> Thanks for the info.



You're welcome. After being machine built they still have to have a human true them.


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## Santee (Aug 4, 2019)

All this information was very helpful. I laced a front wheel using a New Departure hub I bought at an Estate sale for 2 dollars. Tomorrow I will attempt laci



ng the rear coaster brake hub.


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## Sven (Aug 5, 2019)

Santee said:


> All this information was very helpful. I laced a front wheel using a New Departure hub I bought at an Estate sale for 2 dollars. Tomorrow I will attempt laciView attachment 1041460View attachment 1041460
> 
> ng the rear coaster brake hub.



If you did the front, you will have no problem with the rear. Lets us know how it turns out.


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## rustjunkie (Aug 5, 2019)

Sven said:


> Who laced the  drop center wheels for Murray built bicycles? I guess this is a drop center rim. View attachment 982734
> I believe the correct method is over, over, under for a cross 3 pattern.





4x
missed the first cross at the flange


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## rustjunkie (Aug 5, 2019)

with the rims and hubs we use and for the riding most of us do, as long as the spokes are sufficiently tight and the wheel is as round and true as is acceptable to you the "right way" as far as theory goes is whatever works.

"correct" for the majority of american cruisers is 4x not "interlaced".

interlacing does not make for an appreciably stronger or more rigid wheel.

the belief that it does is not supported by science or “real world” evidence:
countless pre- and post-war wheels are still very or acceptably straight and round.
Also: consider a radial spoked wheel steering a ~160lb professional cyclist @25mph


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## Marc's Classic Chrome (Aug 26, 2019)

I suk at these soooooo bad


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## Pauliemon (Nov 13, 2019)

Marc's Classic Chrome said:


> I suk at these soooooo bad



Lol! After building hundreds of wheels I still struggle at times. Give it time Marc, you'll get it.


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## Rivnut (Dec 6, 2019)

The last set of wheels that I laced does not have an "under"" in them. I had two sets of like wheels. I placed the re-painted rim I was replacing next to an OE.  That visual really helped.  The wheels are round and true, and all of the spokes have the same tension.


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## Pauliemon (Dec 10, 2019)

rustjunkie said:


> with the rims and hubs we use and for the riding most of us do, as long as the spokes are sufficiently tight and the wheel is as round and true as is acceptable to you the "right way" as far as theory goes is whatever works.
> 
> "correct" for the majority of american cruisers is 4x not "interlaced".
> 
> ...



Correct, interlacing is to keep broken spokes in place. If not the spoke will flapping around and could cause serious problems. Same for tied and soddered spokes. Doesn't make the wheel stronger makes it safer.


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## TheWindrider (Jan 3, 2020)

Pauliemon said:


> Lol! After building hundreds of wheels I still struggle at times. Give it time Marc, you'll get it.



I do not find this encouraging!!

I am going to attempt a re-lace on these 122 year old wood rims. This thread will be my guide, thank you for sharing this!.


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## eeapo (Jan 20, 2020)

Thanks very much, looks kind of complicated but I'll try it.


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## SKPC (Jan 25, 2020)

For all the wheel-builders out there!   I finally put together this 26" front using some 450gm welded/eyeletted Salsa MTB clincher rims I got cheap last year. NOS 1947 Sturmey Drum front, Wheelsmith 14/15's, gold alloy nips. 1/2 hour job to lace and get straight with no hops.   Trick with the low flange sturmey is getting the j-bends to stay put in the slotted holes when lacing. And just for fun at the bottom, a recently scored 32h White Industries Tracker hub. These may be my all time favorite front qr hub.  I will use it eventually.


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## Pauliemon (Feb 16, 2020)

After decades of wheel building I finally built a set with carbon fiber rims. I got out of the industry right when carbon rims first made they're debut. Whole different animal. Carbon can't be coaxed. It has to be brutally manipulated.


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## Grumpy Grampy (Jan 13, 2021)

militarymonark said:


> anyspecfic questions or pictures needed please ask



Where is a good place to get spokes for a 26" Columbia rim? Need enough to do 2rims. I guess I need to take one out and measure it to be sure I get the right size. This bike still has the Columbia hub up front. Haven't cleaned the back rim up enough yet to tell what brand hub. I do know that it has a Perry brake arm. Don't know if they are good brakes or not. Saw a post in a thread somewhere that told the OP to change it out to another brand that I can't remember.


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## bloo (Jan 13, 2021)

If you are using the same hubs, and the same rims, and the same lacing pattern, then measuring a spoke is BY FAR the easiest way.


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## Grumpy Grampy (Jan 13, 2021)

bloo said:


> If you are using the same hubs, and the same rims, and the same lacing pattern, then measuring a spoke is BY FAR the easiest way.



I may drive to the coast and have it done professionally if I can't pull it off. Changed a ton of spokes in my childhood and jr high years. But haven't ever done a complete wheel. The front hub on this critter is has Columbia on it. The back only has a number. 36-13, in the center. Since it has a Perry brake arm would I be right to assume the hub is made by Perry also? I hope I'm not being a pain but I only ask because I don't know.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Jan 13, 2021)

I think that 36-13 is a bendix hub


Grumpy Grampy said:


> I may drive to the coast and have it done professionally if I can't pull it off. Changed a ton of spokes in my childhood and jr high years. But haven't ever done a complete wheel. The front hub on this critter is has Columbia on it. The back only has a number. 36-13, in the center. Since it has a Perry brake arm would I be right to assume the hub is made by Perry also? I hope I'm not being a pain but I only ask because I don't know.


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## bloo (Jan 13, 2021)

I don't know either, but ill bet if you posted a pic of it you would get a definitive answer.

Lacing wheels isn't that hard. Count the "crosses" before you take them apart. Don't miss the first spoke crossed, as it is in real close to the hub and easily missed. Get the same length spokes. Read up how to do it on Sheldon Brown's site and just go for it. You can use your frame and fork as truing stands. Tape a popsicle stick or something on for a guide. Maybe just buy a truing stand if you think you will be doing this a lot. In any event, do buy or make a dishing stick. Easy to make out of wood if you are on a budget.


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## Grumpy Grampy (Jan 13, 2021)

This is the critter in question. I may need a new brake arm. Don't know if I should try to straighten this one. That said are brake arms pretty much all the same except for manufacturer. Does it have to be a Perry or should something else work?


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## Grumpy Grampy (Jan 13, 2021)

bloo said:


> I don't know either, but ill bet if you posted a pic of it you would get a definitive answer.
> 
> Lacing wheels isn't that hard. Count the "crosses" before you take them apart. Don't miss the first spoke crossed, as it is in real close to the hub and easily missed. Get the same length spokes. Read up how to do it on Sheldon Brown's site and just go for it. You can use your frame and fork as truing stands. Tape a popsicle stick or something on for a guide. Maybe just buy a truing stand if you think you will be doing this a lot. In any event, do buy or make a dishing stick. Easy to make out of wood if you are on a budget.



More of my ignorance. What is a dishing stick and how to use it? I used to just screw every spoke even with the top of the nipple put them back on and adjust them till the wheel ran more or less without wobble.


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## bloo (Jan 13, 2021)

A dishing stick show you how far off center you are with the rim. It just measures how far from the outside of the bearing cone to the outside of the rim. I made a crappy one out of angle iron and bolts, but I don't really recommend it. Angle iron costs and I've seen things online just cut from plywood with a piece of ruler attached that work better than mine does.

Example, you measure one side, then you measure the other side and it is 1/2" off. Then you would need to move the rim to the side half of that distance, or 1/4". In practice it wont be off that far, but you get the idea. 

Technically it is possible to just keep flipping the new wheel over in the frame or fork to check centering, but it gets old quick. It also gets confusing. As you are truing the new wheel you need to know if the rim is off center, and which way. Then you make your corrections for wobble in a way that pull the rim closer to center as you tighten.


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## bloo (Jan 13, 2021)

If the arm says it's Perry, I'll bet its Perry. That is not a hub I know anything about. I would clean it all up starting with the hub. Those bearing surfaces look trashed. Maybe its just old dirt and grease, If they are as bad as they look, you need a new shell, and since you are lacing the wheel you could replace the whole hub with some other brand if it is easier to get.


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## Grumpy Grampy (Jan 13, 2021)

bloo said:


> If the arm says it's Perry, I'll bet its Perry. That is not a hub I know anything about. I would clean it all up starting with the hub. Those bearing surfaces look trashed. Maybe its just old dirt and grease, If they are as bad as they look, you need a new shell, and since you are lacing the wheel you could replace the whole hub with some other brand if it is easier to get.



If it gets easier to do, I may just find a 26" three speed back rim


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## Grumpy Grampy (Jan 13, 2021)

bloo said:


> If the arm says it's Perry, I'll bet its Perry. That is not a hub I know anything about. I would clean it all up starting with the hub. Those bearing surfaces look trashed. Maybe its just old dirt and grease, If they are as bad as they look, you need a new shell, and since you are lacing the wheel you could replace the whole hub with some other brand if it is easier to get.



Threw all the parts in my go-to cleaner. Two stroke gas for the weedeater. Was going to tackle pulling the pedals and crank tonight but I swear it looks like the pedal shafts are smaller than normal and they seem to have a phillips head screw holding them on. Broke my thin wall 9/16 wrench trying to move it in the right direction to unscrew the non drive side. Wouldn't move in the other direction either. Sprayed it with WD40. Will try tomorrow. Thanks for all the help this site has been giving me.


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## 3-speeder (Jan 13, 2021)

36 - 13 is the number and gauge size of spokes. Yeah that hub doesn't look very good. I would get a better one.  You could find one in the for sale section. Just look for another 36 hole hub. As far as wheel building I like the tutorial on Sheldon Brown's site as well.  I have done maybe a dozen wheels now and they get easier as you go.  If you want a good deal on some decent stainless steel spokes, I like Husky Bicycles.
If you are looking to replace the wheels then keep your eyes out on CL or other sale sites for a cheap girls bike that you can rob the wheels off of.  Girls bikes are generally in better shape.  Upgrading to 3-speeds is fun too.





						Wheelbuilding
					

A tutorial on how to choose parts for, build and true a spoked bicycle wheel



					www.sheldonbrown.com
				








						Stainless Steel Spokes: Husky Bicycles
					

NEXT DAY SHIPPING FROM HOUSTON TX. FREE SHIPPING ORDERS +$75




					www.huskybicycles.com


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## Grumpy Grampy (Jan 13, 2021)

If I am going to build a no value junker ratrod might as well do exactly how I think a daily rider should be. If I change the back to 3 speed. I might as well change the front to. If I do that will probably go with a slightly smaller front wheel. If the crank doesn't hit the ground when riding. Makes me wonder if I could find a shorter crank to fit. Ideas are flowing parts not so much.


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## the tinker (Jan 13, 2021)

Just get another hub. Somebody jammed the brake on real hard while going fast to do that. Not worth the time and money wasted to re-use that hub if it's bad. Re-spoking a wheel is easy if you are retired, especially during this covid crap. Lots of spare time, at least for me. You goof up, just do it over. I've done many wheels, but if I don't do one for a while I get rusty. Post what state you live in, if any CABE members live near you, everybody has extra wheels and parts.


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## Grumpy Grampy (Jan 13, 2021)

I'm in south Mississippi.


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## Popshop (Jan 23, 2022)

Speaking of spoking wheels, I have two sets of Schwinn S2 wheels that need rebuilding.  What size spokes do i need for the front.  or the rear.  The front hubs are Schwinn script hubs and the rear ones are new departure model D units.. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Popshop (Jan 23, 2022)

Whoops, forgot vital information.  The rims are 26 inch and I am in East Tennessee


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## Ricollector (Jan 24, 2022)

Popshop said:


> Whoops, forgot vital information.  The rims are 26 inch and I am in East Tennessee



13 gauge = .095 typical size
I can rebuild your rims. I live in Michigan. It would be cheaper for you to find a local bicycle shop. The cost of shipping your rims to me and back to you is not ideal. I hope this helps?


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## Sven (Jan 24, 2022)

Are you looking for spoke gauge or spoke length? I read in your other post that the spokes are excessively rusty. If you can salvage one from each wheel and measure it that would be the ticket.
But if I'm reading your description correctly of the hubs and rims..
10 5/8  ( 269mm ) cross 4.
This might help as well








						Schwinn S 2 balloon tire 26 " spoke length PLEASE | All Things Schwinn
					

Getting ready to re - lace a couple of sets of my schwinn S 2  26" balloon tire rims , its been a few years since i have done any wheels , could someone please tell me what the length of the spokes are for 26" schwinn S 2 wheels,  i have a bunch of spokes about 10 3/8", thanks for your help ...




					thecabe.com


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## 62typhoon (Jan 24, 2022)

J.E said:


> Please do.I just bought a trueing stand but need to learn how to use it......LOL



do yourself a favor and mark each side of stand with 'TIGHTEN/ LOOSEN. I use to get screwed up because your standing behind the wheel not in front ..if that makes sence....also I have to be super focused no diversions or I start screwing up with which spoke to turn.


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## Popshop (Jan 25, 2022)

yes, the measurement is correct 10 5/8 or 269mm.  I do have a friend who can lace these up for me.  He has done several here locally.  I am trying to avoid buying excessively long spokes and allow him room to true the wheels.  Thanks  Ed


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## Barfbucket (Apr 2, 2022)

Popshop said:


> Speaking of spoking wheels, I have two sets of Schwinn S2 wheels that need rebuilding.  What size spokes do i need for the front.  or the rear.  The front hubs are Schwinn script hubs and the rear ones are new departure model D units.. Any help would be greatly appreciated.



Check the cross, my schwinn wheels that I rebuilt had the same lengths spokes front and rear. Three cross on the front and four cross on the rear. The final cross was done incorrectly by modern standards, over three or four instead of over two and under one, etc. I don’t recall the length, this was years ago and the bike is long gone.


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## Rivnut (Apr 29, 2022)

I’ve relaced a few original Schwinn wheels and found most of them do not have the “under” in the third or fourth cross.


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## Scanner (Jul 15, 2022)

Did you use three cross or four cross


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## Gimletbikes (Jul 15, 2022)

Rivnut said:


> I’ve relaced a few original Schwinn wheels and found most of them do not have the “under” in the third or fourth cross.



I have noticed this too, on every schwinn I've checked. Why do you think that is?


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## Rivnut (Jul 15, 2022)

Simplicity in building it in mass production.


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## Gimletbikes (Jul 15, 2022)

Rivnut said:


> Simplicity in building it in mass production.



Makes sense. So, these days, when a collector is rebuilding a wheel in a home workshop, would you speculate that it's more common preference to copy the schwinn method, or lace the spoke under in the 3rd or 4th cross?  Just curious what you think


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## Rivnut (Jul 15, 2022)

The last spoke under supposedly builds a stronger wheel but for no more than these bikes are ridden, there’s no reason not to make it easy on yourself and lace everything over.


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## GTs58 (Jul 15, 2022)

I always wondered what the difference would be in doing the over under method. I can't rationalize how it would make a stronger wheel by having two spokes with slight pressure against each other. How does that make a stronger wheel? I came across this analysis of radial to 4 cross lacing. I can understand how tying two spokes together would somewhat deter some of the deflection of those two spokes, but just having them rubbing each other couldn't possibly do anything other than directing the deflection. 


_Already, it should be apparent that the answer is that different spoking makes very little difference to the stiffness. All the plots have deflection scaled up 100 times, and you'd be struggling to see any difference.

Numerically, I can extract the vertical deflection at the middle of the contact patch:_


modeldeflection
mm per 1000Nstiffness
N per mm0 cross0.1628mm​6143​1 cross0.1642mm​6090​2 cross0.1654mm​6046​3 cross0.1675mm​5970​4 cross0.1703mm​5872​


Conclusions​_So, a radially spoked wheel is about 4.6% stiffer than a tangentially spoked one. Alternatively, if you apply 1000N (about 100kg, 220lb) to each of the wheels, the tangential (four-cross) spoked one deflects 0.0075mm (0.0003 inch) more than the radial spoked. Since the tyre is likely to deflect several millimetres at least (if 3mm, that's 400 times more deflection) I conclude the spoking is unlikely to make a discernible difference to the vertical stiffness of the wheel._



			Ian's Bicycle Wheel Analysis - Spoke Patterns


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## SirMike1983 (Aug 4, 2022)

My experience has been interlacing the last cross makes the wheel a little less prone to going out-of-true with use on most paved roads. It's not a large difference. Most vintage wheels were not interlaced, and they function just fine when subjected to normal riding conditions. It is not mandatory if the wheel is otherwise built up correctly. More important are correct spoke length, reasonable spoke tension, condition of the rims, and use of proper spokes/spoke washers/etc. Don't sweat the interlace or not question if you can otherwise build up a wheel competently.

The beauty of cross-4 tangential spoking is that it reduces the effects of variations in hub flange diameter on spoke length. It makes it somewhat easier to get an accurate spoke length measurement. But that is a convenience thing more than a strength thing.


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## Two Wheeler (Aug 20, 2022)

militarymonark said:


> well i'll tell you what the best I can do is take detailed pictures not missing a step then each picture i'll describe what is involved in each step. now there is a website about spoking wheels but last time I tried using that site I got all messed up. But the guy I learned from had the fasted time in spoking a wheel from schwinn and he has the certificate to show for it, of course that was in the 50's but it was like in under 5 minuites. This guy is good i just stumbled upon him at an antique shop in town. So now I have some s2 rims i can finally finish and make them look real good. It's easier than I think, I just need to practice on them otherwise Im gonna forget. really I need to write it down. but I prob wont lol and have to call him up again. we'll see. I'll post pics soon maybe tomorrow since I have some time to spoke the front wheel.



I have lots of NOS spokes if you need any.


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## Barfbucket (Nov 10, 2022)

Well, the online and book lacing tutorials no longer make sense to my 77 year old brain when it comes to lacing a rim that has the first hole to the right of the stem up. I just laced and trued this one with the up hole. 7 different tutorials and non drive side later spoking  failures and I invented my own method.


I call it the hit and miss until it’s right method. The non drive side took three tries. I put in the spoke next to the valve hole, spoke about a quarter way and do a few crosses. It’s apparent right away if it’s wrong. Then, do it different until it’s right. I have no problem if the first right of the valve is down. I never had problems when I was younger. I’m now getting confused and my concentration is shot. I’m rebuilding 120 year old hubs and rims and they have the dreaded up hole. More head scratching. 


I’m too lazy to make a truing stand that requires any drilling, welding or any heavy thinking. I took an old fork and spread it with a furniture clamp so that front and rear wheels fit. It’s fast and easy this way.



I use vice grips as guides. It works better if the grips are flipped so the adjustment bolt is against the rim.


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## Redphantom (Dec 23, 2022)

J.E said:


> Please do.I just bought a trueing stand but need to learn how to use it......LOL



Me too sounds very helpful


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## Barfbucket (Dec 26, 2022)

Barfbucket said:


> quarter way and do a few crosses. It’s apparent right away if it’s wrong. Then, do it different until it’s right. I have no problem if the first right


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## Barfbucket (Dec 26, 2022)

Here is how I lace simple rims/hubs. Single speed, 3 cross, no off set rims or free hub/cassette.
Measure hub dimensions with an electronic caliper. Determine ERD.










For this photo essay I’m using a wood rim and a steel clad wood rim. The hubs are both vintage armless coaster brakes. Consistency to help see the difference when lacing different drill patterns. The rim drill patterns are spoke hole up on the first hole to the right of the valve stem (the dark rim) and spoke hole down on the first hole to the right of the valve hole.




The third pattern has the spoke holes drilled in the center of the rim, no up or down holes. To lace a rim like this follow the instructions fit the up or down spoking patter. As long as you follow the steps for one of the other drill pattern it will work.

Put a heads out spoke in any drive side hub hole.



Put this spoke next to the valve hole as shown. Note it’s different for each type of rim drilling. It’s in an up hole. All spokes from the up side of the hub go into rim up holes. Starting the pattern like this places them all on this side of the wheel in up holes. Put a tape flag down near the hub on the first spoke. If your spoking a front wheel, just pretend that the first side you lace is the drive side. Regardless, always tape flag the first spoke you put in next to the valve hole. This is an up hole. Count 5 spoke holes clockwise with the valve hole opposite you. Skip a hub hole clockwise and put a heads out spoke in that hub hole and place the spoke in the fifth rim hole. Tighten the nipple 4 turns, pull on the nipple to make sure it’s thread.












I give up on this blog, photos disappear, text goes in the wrong place, photos get shuffled. You cant post a sequence it’s fcuk Ed up.


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## GTs58 (Dec 26, 2022)

Barfbucket said:


> Here is how I lace simple rims/hubs. Single speed, 3 cross, no off set rims or free hub/cassette.
> Measure hub dimensions with an electronic caliper. Determine ERD.View attachment 1758219
> 
> View attachment 1758220
> ...




I've had that same f'g problem. To make it simple I organize my pictures in the order I want them posted and then I post all the pictures before doing any of the text. Just add at least one space between each of the pictures when loading. Then you can come back and add the text when all the pictures are uploaded.


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## Barfbucket (Dec 27, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> I've had that same f'g problem. To make it simple I organize my pictures in the order I want them posted and then I post all the pictures before doing any of the text. Just add at least one space between each of the pictures when loading. Then you can come back and add the text when all the pictures are uploaded.



Not worth the effort. As usual the geeks only figure out how to do something halfway. They always leave a software update broken. I’m not dealing with incompetence.  I posted my photo essay for my easy method for determining how to start the first spoke on the non drive side, for both the up or down rim drilling patterns, on other bike blogs without any problems. The lacing is different for each drilling pattern, especially the non drive side. My method makes figuring out the difference easy.


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## SirMike1983 (Dec 27, 2022)

Have faith in your building plan and stick to it. After you do your measuring and get the correct length spokes, re-check everything in the calculator or the length chart, dive into the building and stick to your plan. I was helping a guy with a wheel a couple of years ago and even though we both measured and checked the chart and verified with the calc, he kept saying it seemed like everything was wrong and too short during the first half of the build. I guess he felt he was forcing them to reach more than he should have been. He kept saying "they aren't going to be long enough".

I told him to just keep building and stick to his plan. It was when the final set of 9 spokes went in that it all meshed together and the length was spot-on.

It helps to have a plan of how to measure, get the components, and build. And stick to that plan. It helps prevent errors or panicking and thinking you have the wrong spokes.


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## Barfbucket (Dec 27, 2022)

SirMike1983 said:


> Have faith in your building plan and stick to it. After you do your measuring and get the correct length spokes, re-check everything in the calculator or the length chart, dive into the building and stick to your plan. I was helping a guy with a wheel a couple of years ago and even though we both measured and checked the chart and verified with the calc, he kept saying it seemed like everything was wrong and too short during the first half of the build. I guess he felt he was forcing them to reach more than he should have been. He kept saying "they aren't going to be long enough".
> 
> I told him to just keep building and stick to his plan. It was when the final set of 9 spokes went in that it all meshed together and the length was spot-on.
> 
> It helps to have a plan of how to measure, get the components, and build. And stick to that plan. It helps prevent errors or panicking and thinking you have the wrong spokes.



I have no problem determining spokes length or lacing. Here are some I’ve built this month. I’ve built more this month but their in our garage. I can’t show my easy foolproof method on this blog because it won’t post consecutive photos.


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