# First and Last Ballooners?



## Real Steel (Jun 4, 2013)

This is the Classic Balloon Tire Bicycles 1933-1965 category.  But which bike is credited with the very first Balloon tire?  Which was last?


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## Nick-theCut (Jun 4, 2013)

This should be in the Tuesday quiz thread.  Good question.  I would love to see documentation supporting anyone's answer.  I feel like this could be answered with many different personal guesses or opinions.
Schwinn 1933 catalog says that it was the first year that they were an available option.  It wasn't a complete switch over, but a new option.
???


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## jpromo (Jun 4, 2013)

I've always believed the '33 Schwinn B line to be the first ballooners. B-3, B-9, B-10e.


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## Gary Mc (Jun 4, 2013)

jpromo said:


> I've always believed the '33 Schwinn B line to be the first ballooners. B-3, B-9, B-10e.




And jpromo is the winner......


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## OldRider (Jun 4, 2013)

I know that Monark phased out the ballooner after 1954, made the switch to all middleweights. I'm sure others produced ballooners after that though.


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## Gary Mc (Jun 4, 2013)

Last were probably Columbia Newsboys which ran from 1950 to 1977 and Columbia the BIG MAC from 1977 to 1982.

http://vintagecolumbiabikes.com/id117.html


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## eazywind (Jun 4, 2013)

*Montgomery wards Hawthorne*

Or Montomery Wards Hawthorne...........

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle721


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## Real Steel (Jun 4, 2013)

Gary Mc said:


> Last were probably Columbia Newsboys which ran from 1950 to 1977 and Columbia the BIG MAC from 1977 to 1982.
> 
> http://vintagecolumbiabikes.com/id117.html




I have a '62 Columbia Newsboy Special.  I was told (I think it was Mr. Columbia) that '62 was the last year for Columbia Balloons.  In '63 the Newsboy bikes used middle weight frames and tires.  Then, after that idea failed, balloons came back a few years later using the '62 type heavy duty Newsboy frames.

If we are counting continuous balloon bike production, '62 would be the last year for Columbia.  I think.


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## MrColumbia (Jun 5, 2013)

Real Steel said:


> I have a '62 Columbia Newsboy Special.  I was told (I think it was Mr. Columbia) that '62 was the last year for Columbia Balloons.  In '63 the Newsboy bikes used middle weight frames and tires.  Then, after that idea failed, balloons came back a few years later using the '62 type heavy duty Newsboy frames.
> 
> If we are counting continuous balloon bike production, '62 would be the last year for Columbia.  I think.






The 63's and 64's did have a lighter weight frame with unitized frame/luggage rack but still kept the heavyweight wheels with .105 spokes and balloon tires. As far as I know Columbia never stopped making a balloon tire bike as long as they made bicycles. I misspoke if I stated that they were middleweights.

As was already stated, Schwinn was the first to use the balloon tires in the USA.


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## SirMike1983 (Jun 5, 2013)

MrColumbia said:


> As was already stated, Schwinn was the first to use the balloon tires in the USA.




I think that's a key qualification. What are known as "balloon" and similar tires in the US were being used in Europe before 1933 for transport/commercial/delivery/heavy cycles and the like.


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## kos22us (Jun 5, 2013)

SirMike1983 said:


> I think that's a key qualification. What are known as "balloon" and similar tires in the US were being used in Europe before 1933 for transport/commercial/delivery/heavy cycles and the like.




yes frank schwinn did not invent the balloon tire, he introduced the balloon tire to the usa setting the bar for all other bicycle manf. companies and its my understanding this was no easy task by any stretch, im not sure a smaller bicycle company could have pulled it off, firestone had no beef with making the rims for schwinn but the tire companies basically laughed at his idea, once he convinced us rubber to make the tire it was only a short period of time before it was the standard for all


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## SirMike1983 (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes, I suppose the answer is Schwinn if you're asking about American balloon tire cruiser bicycles, at least the sort we normally associate with balloon tires now. I suppose that is the glamorous answer that brings up images of the classic, pre-war Schwinn bikes.

If you're talking any bicycle using balloon-type tires, probably some early european delivery bicycle long since turned to dust and forgotten. That is a decidedly unglamorous answer.


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## kos22us (Jun 5, 2013)

well he posted the question in the classic balloon tire 1933-1965 thread so i have to assume he's asking about usa


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## mruiz (Jun 5, 2013)

I have a 1964 Schwinn, with S-2's. That is the last year balloon tire I recall, because it change to Heavy Duti after. Correct me if I am wrong.
 Mitch


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## ridingtoy (Jun 5, 2013)

My wife has a 1989 Roadmaster Aspen balloon tire model I purchased for her brand new. Though it was actually made in Taiwan instead of the US. Looks very similar to this red one except having a step through frame, no hand brake, and blue in color: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=roadmaster+aspen

Dave


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## Real Steel (Jun 5, 2013)

MrColumbia said:


> The 63's and 64's did have a lighter weight frame with unitized frame/luggage rack but still kept the heavyweight wheels with .105 spokes and balloon tires. As far as I know Columbia never stopped making a balloon tire bike as long as they made bicycles.




When was the last Columbia with Balloons??


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## MrColumbia (Jun 5, 2013)

Real Steel said:


> When was the last Columbia with Balloons??





I would have to say the 125th anniversary bike they made in 2002 was the last Balloon tire bike they made in the Westfield plant. It was also the last bike at all they made there. They still claim on their web site to sell a line of mountain bikes if you consider them to be balloon tire bikes but those are imported.


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## Real Steel (Jun 5, 2013)

MrColumbia said:


> I would have to say the 125th anniversary bike they made in 2002 was the last Balloon tire bike they made in the Westfield plant. It was also the last bike at all they made there. They still claim on their web site to sell a line of mountain bikes if you consider them to be balloon tire bikes but those are imported.




Thanks Mr. Columbia!

It looks like Columbia may be the last USA balloon bike in 2002.

But this forum catagory ends in 1965.  Who drew that line? ...there must be a reason, and its probably a good one.

Is 1965 the end of the 'Classic' era for balloons?  What does 'classic' mean here as it applies to balloon bikes?


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## MrColumbia (Jun 6, 2013)

Real Steel said:


> Thanks Mr. Columbia!
> 
> It looks like Columbia may be the last USA balloon bike in 2002.
> 
> ...






   You can walk in to any bike shop or department store right now and buy a brand new balloon tire bike, they refer to them as cruisers or beach cruisers. The 1965 end date may be fairly arbitrary put there to guide the discussions to older bikes and not newer modern made bikes.  It’s kind of like the 12 items or less isle in the supermarket. The ones here say “13 or 14 are ok too”. 
The reason for the 1933 start date is obvious.


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## babyjesus (Jun 7, 2013)

*Hawthorne*

Is it just me or did everybody just ignore the 1932 Hawthorne ad featuring a bike with balloon tires on it?  I always thought it was Schwinn B line bikes too but I guess that's not exactly true - or somebody has an older Schwinn ad featuring 26x2.125s?

It clearly says on the ad both above the picture and to the right of it that it's the first bike to have such tires. However I can't find a year written on it albeit captioned on nostalgic as being a 1932 ad page.  I think it's worth confirming that to be a 1932 page. It wouldn't suprise me if people think it was Schwinn (who 'inventec balloon tires on bikes) regardless because they are the king kong market and ad/business/sales experts. I think they might have taken the idea and ran with it, claiming to own it perhaps. That is how business works in the real world afterall. Often the original idea comes from a quieter entity.

Just incase you really didn't notice eazywind's post here is the ad again:






I never knew that - you learn something new every day I guess 

....and the reference page: http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle721


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## SirMike1983 (Jun 7, 2013)

babyjesus said:


> Is it just me or did everybody just ignore the 1932 Hawthorne ad featuring a bike with balloon tires on it?  I always thought it was Schwinn B line bikes too but I guess that's not exactly true - or somebody has an older Schwinn ad featuring 26x2.125s?
> 
> Just incase you really didn't notice eazywind's post here is the ad again:
> 
> ...




Are they clinchers or are they simply wide, low-pressure single tube type tires? The cross-section shown in the ad appears to depict a single-tube type tire. The text is very small, but I did not see it mention that it uses a tube and clincher type design, though I may have missed it. Do they mean balloon as in what we call a "balloon" tire now, or did they have in mind a wide, low-pressure single tube that was like an intermediate type?


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## babyjesus (Jun 7, 2013)

SirMike1983 said:


> Are they clinchers or are they simply wide, low-pressure single tube type tires? The cross-section shown in the ad appears to depict a single-tube type tire. The text is very small, but I did not see it mention that it uses a tube and clincher type design, though I may have missed it. Do they mean balloon as in what we call a "balloon" tire now, or did they have in mind a wide, low-pressure single tube that was like an intermediate type?




I think the only difference is clincher v tubular but they are referred to and look like balloon tires. If you look at the text on the right it talks about - hard to read tho I agree. I'm sold on this but I just want confirmation it's a 1932 ad.  

Balloon means 26 x 2.125 or so I have been told numerous times in the past, it being a size reference as opposed to anything else, as in 'big and balloony and fat looking' - very cool

I'm more concerned if its really a 1932 ad


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## Gary Mc (Jun 7, 2013)

babyjesus said:


> Is it just me or did everybody just ignore the 1932 Hawthorne ad featuring a bike with balloon tires on it?  I always thought it was Schwinn B line bikes too but I guess that's not exactly true - or somebody has an older Schwinn ad featuring 26x2.125s?
> 
> It clearly says on the ad both above the picture and to the right of it that it's the first bike to have such tires. However I can't find a year written on it albeit captioned on nostalgic as being a 1932 ad page.  I think it's worth confirming that to be a 1932 page. It wouldn't suprise me if people think it was Schwinn (who 'inventec balloon tires on bikes) regardless because they are the king kong market and ad/business/sales experts. I think they might have taken the idea and ran with it, claiming to own it perhaps. That is how business works in the real world afterall. Often the original idea comes from a quieter entity.
> 
> ...





My only question here would be were these singletube balloon tires or tube & tire balloon tires we know today.


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 7, 2013)

*Ad says*

Cement type balloon tires, so single tubes is my interpretation, but I also wonder if the ad is from 1932, but is a reasonable assumption with the bike and accessories.
Chris


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## bricycle (Jun 7, 2013)

If you see the tire insert above, that is a singletube balloon....


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## babyjesus (Jun 8, 2013)

bricycle said:


> If you see the tire insert above, that is a singletube balloon....




Exactly - the operative word being balloon - clincher or not, balloon is balloon so assuming it's a 1932 ad it goes without saying that the point has been made as put by Dave Stromberger on the ad page as follows:

"1932 Hawthorne ACE Balloon Tire Motorbike
This ad from a 1932 Montgomery Ward catalog describes this bicycle as having “Balloon Tires”. They appear to be single-tube type tires like the common (at the time) 28″ tires, but they are 26″ and a larger diameter. This of course pre-dates Schwinn’s claim to fame of having the first Balloon Tire bicycle in America."

I don't think it could be much clearer really - whether or not clincher is just semantics but the fact remains that it looks like "balloon" tires were introduced otherwise to our general perception of it being Schwinn. I always thought it was a Schwinn 'B' range beginning, until now anyway 

....all this asusming it's a 1932 ad.  Schwinn had better advertising and that's why we think it was Schwinn - the business world is always like this. Look at Gary Fisher - he was the businessman - not the inventor hands on per se - same with Steve Wonzniak who was the hands on apple creator whereas Steve Jobs was just the business guy. In this case I would say Schwinn has taken the credit simply for the same kind of business reasons but it's starting to look pretty undeniable that it was not actually them who made the practical physical application 'first'. Nothing wrong with that. They obviously knew a good idea when they saw one but it's clearly not right to say they 'invented' it as they claim in their very well designed 1933 ad. 

To question all this around the issue of clincher versus tubular is a matter of whether you prefer the idea that it was Schwinn and therefore choose to lay hold on the matter of clincher being somehow the important part of the meaning of 'balloon' but obviously what it is called is 'balloon clincher' so in reality it is possible although not certain that schwinn introduced the 'balloon clincher' - but that is such a load of semantic waffle it seems irrelevant - when it looks like balloon tires that added to the look and changed the nature of the ride came from Hawthorne - probably - and not Schwinn.  It's all then a matter of whether you are just biased to Schwinn holding the 'title' in which case you will have to always specifiy - contrary to their 1933 ad claim - that they invented the "balloon clincher" and certainly not the "balloon" tire (which is what matters surely since you can't see inside the tire anyway) otherwise you would be misrepresenting Schwinn.

It couldn't be more obvious.  Personally I woiuld like the see proof of it being 1932 - the rest is obvious.  If you say "Schwinn invented the use of balloon tires on bikes in 1933" you would not be telling the truth. Its "balloon clincher" for those of you who insist.
'


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## babyjesus (Jun 8, 2013)

*......or*

....or is what I just said so obvious I didn't need to say it?  I think it might have been.


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## MrColumbia (Jun 8, 2013)

The real thing that is obvious in this thread is the intent of the creator of this forum. That intent refers to balloon clinchers, not the *very obscure *balloon single tube bike or else the date would have been 1932-1965. 

Let's not forget that although Schwinn is credited to be the first to "introduce" the clincher balloon tire to the American bicycling world other companies came out with their own the _very same year of 1933 _as well. 1933 is simply the first model year for American clincher balloon tire bikes. No big conspiracy here.

We may have to create a new category name "*Classic Single Tube Balloon Tire Bicycle 1932-1932*". 





From the 1933 Columbia catalog


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## babyjesus (Jun 8, 2013)

MrColumbia said:


> The real thing that is obvious in this thread is the intent of the creator of this forum. That intent refers to balloon clinchers, not the *very obscure *balloon single tube bike or else the date would have been 1932-1965.
> 
> Let's not forget that although Schwinn is credited to be the first to "introduce" the clincher balloon tire to the American bicycling world other companies came out with their own the _very same year of 1933 _as well. 1933 is simply the first model year for American clincher balloon tire bikes. No big conspiracy here.
> 
> ...




Exactly, Schwinn may have introduced the balloon clincher in '33 whereas Hawthorne may have introduced the tubular balloon before.  So next time somebody asks (not that they would) "who introduced the balloon tire to the bicycle world" the answer is Hawthorne in 1932. Anything else would be false assuming the ad is a '32 ad.  I've never heard the question of what kind of balloon tires they are come up. Actually the only conspiracy is that Schwinn wrote on their '33 ad that they were the first to introduce balloon tires when that is technically speaking not true - but it's normal for any company trying to up itself in the game to advertize in this sort of way. It's up to us to take it with a grain of salt. It's not like we should believe everything ads tell us. I don't but I will admit to being duped by Schwinn in this case.  They should have just added clincher - it certainly wouldn't have sounded as good but it would have been the truth.

To put it differently - a bike with 26 x 2.125 tires, regardless of how they were put on or what is inside them - is a balloon tire bicycle, or a bicycle with balloon tires on it. I mean one would sound pretty silly saying "no, those aren't balloon tires because they aren't clinchers" assuming one even noticed. I think Mr Columbia is right - balloon single tube tires are obscure balloon tires


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## MrColumbia (Jun 8, 2013)

Company's stretch the truth all the time. It does often come to a matter of semantics. Columbia's tag line has always been "_Americas First Bicycle_" but strictly speaking that is not true either. They were the first lasting production bicycle in America though and that is what counts.  

"_The winner gets to write the history!"_


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## cds2323 (Jun 8, 2013)

There is a catalog page from MW in Vol. 1 Evolution of the Bicycle from 32 or so.  The balloon tire in question is described as 26x1.75. I don't remember if it's listed as single tube or clincher. I'll try to post tomorrow when I return home unless someone else can look it up and post. This is what I remember offhand.


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## SirMike1983 (Jun 8, 2013)

I don't count the Hawthorne. The innovation is not in reducing the tire from 28 to 26 inches. It is not in making it wide or run at a low pressure. The innovation is combining those elements with the clincher and separate tube format. I consider it more a single tube antique bicycle than a classic balloon tire bicycle because of the hassle and properties of the glue-on single tube format. The type of bicycle we know now as "classic balloon tire" would never have made the splash they did had they just made fatter and fatter single tubes. The clincher and separate tube format is what seals it.


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## Gary Mc (Jun 8, 2013)

SirMike1983 said:


> I don't count the Hawthorne. The innovation is not in reducing the tire from 28 to 26 inches. It is not in making it wide or run at a low pressure. The innovation is combining those elements with the clincher and separate tube format. I consider it more a single tube antique bicycle than a classic balloon tire bicycle because of the hassle and properties of the glue-on single tube format. The type of bicycle we know now as "classic balloon tire" would never have made the splash they did had they just made fatter and fatter single tubes. The clincher and separate tube format is what seals it.




I agree Mike.


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## chitown (Jun 8, 2013)

*1933 Mead Ranger Ace*

Can't leave this ad out from Aug 1933 Boy's Life. Looks like triple drop clinchers. Lists 2 1/2" double tube balloon tires.


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 8, 2013)

I removed a 28 x 11/2 no. 77 Giant Chain Tread Universal Clincher Des. Pat. No. 43454 from a G and J clincher rim with a Morrow hub dated A or B (that I will verify in the morning as I cannot get to it tonight).
It is NOT my belief that with the balloon tire, came the clincher style and that the prevailing 28" motorbikes adopted clincher first, albeit in a very limited application as one would expect in such magnitude of change.
A balloon tire is a wider tire, higher air capacity tire designed to provide a more comfortable cushioned ride and whether or not it is obscure or common, clincher or glue on is not the point.
Wards offered the first balloon tire unless I see evidence otherwise.
Chris


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## MrColumbia (Jun 9, 2013)

It was always my understanding that the separate tube was absolutely the point of calling it a "balloon", the balloon referring to the balloon like tube inside of the tire. I will have to do some digging but I seem to remember early lightweight bikes with tubes having the tires still called "balloon type tires". 

Nothing about a single tube tire regardless of size resembles a balloon which gets larger as you blow it up. 

I wonder if the 1932 aberration was just an attempt to jump on the bandwagon that they know was going to be introduced soon. Calling that a "balloon" was their marketing b.s. 

In any case, it's interesting to see all these little side streets in the evolution of the bicycle. I would love to go back in time to find out what the thought process was on the "balloon single tube tire". Did they know it was doomed to failure before it started or did someone think this would be the future of bicycles? Did they know a tubed version was coming out in a few months? Advertisements will never tell us these things. It's good we can hash it out here and maybe get to the bottom if it.


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## babyjesus (Jun 9, 2013)

scrubbinrims said:


> I removed a 28 x 11/2 no. 77 Giant Chain Tread Universal Clincher Des. Pat. No. 43454 from a G and J clincher rim with a Morrow hub dated A or B (that I will verify in the morning as I cannot get to it tonight).
> It is NOT my belief that with the balloon tire, came the clincher style and that the prevailing 28" motorbikes adopted clincher first, albeit in a very limited application as one would expect in such magnitude of change.
> A balloon tire is a wider tire, higher air capacity tire designed to provide a more comfortable cushioned ride and whether or not it is obscure or common, clincher or glue on is not the point.
> Wards offered the first balloon tire unless I see evidence otherwise.
> Chris




I agree with you there. Albeit that Schwinn got to "write the history" technically speaking they didn't do it first. This is how so many inventions and new things in the world go. Somebody comes up with the idea and does it and then somebody else modifies it a little bit, making it more practical in some way, but more to the point they market it on a much bigger scale making it the norm. In the end this is partly about credit. And it is without a doubt that whoever first had the idea to put larger tires for a more cushioned ride, on a bicycle, deserves credit for doing so. Often the inventor is not the one you hear about in the mainstream. I suppose the discussion is important because here on Cabe we are not the mainstream but we are the ones who would, if anyone, know what the details and technicalities really are. The mainstream will continue to think the B10e was the first balloon tire bike whereas we on Cabe know otherwise. As detailed, technical or semantic as this discussion goes, this remains the right place for it.  Most people think Steve Jobs invented Apple computers, or that Gary Fischer invented the mountain bike ....etc but as Mr Columbia rightly said, those who win get to write the history and in this case winning is success in business and production. I am not into computers as I am with bikes so I am quite happy to just carry on thinking Steve Jobs was the guy and I'm not too fussed about what Wonzniak's role in it was but I am totally into bikes so the details matter alot to me. I just really care to know who first thought the usual 28inch, relatively thin tires, weren't doing it given the quality of the roads back then and the size of children being a bit on the small side for a full size 28inch bike - and who thought about another option, like fatter tires with a smaller diameter.  Clearly back then a cushioned ride was very important since we see the topic tackled in many ways by many manufacturers.  

But whoever did first think about the whole chunky tire thing was pretty cool in my book, and technically speaking it's very much less clear who that was than the mainstream view on the subject give's. I am still going with Wards - what a great idea. Another thing is that if Wards hadn't then somebody else would have and maybe even did for all we know.  It's a very interesting and important landmark in the history of bikes in the USA so it warrants the kind of detail we are giving it. 

The other thing I don't know much about is when single tube tires went 'out' and clinchers came 'in' - regardless of whether or not they were balloon sized. All I know is that very thin single's are still used on racing bikes even today. I have no idea when clinchers were invented or were first widely used but my guess is around the late teens. I don't have enough experience with bikes of that era so that's really a guess


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## Adamtinkerer (Jun 9, 2013)

1965 was generally used as the cut off date for "classic" ballooners, since it was the last year for the Schwinn Wasp.


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## chitown (Jun 9, 2013)

*Doughnut Tires*



babyjesus said:


> But whoever did first think about the whole chunky tire thing was pretty cool in my book




Here is a fun article from Flying magazine in 1943. A J Musselman was obsessed with patents. If he didn't invent something he would try and acquire the patents by buying them off the inventors. But one of his most important inventions was introducing the l*ow pressure/high volume* tire to the airplane industry. It took a while to take hold but the bicycle industry eventually caught on to the idea.


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## Real Steel (Jun 9, 2013)

Adamtinkerer said:


> 1965 was generally used as the cut off date for "classic" ballooners, since it was the last year for the Schwinn Wasp.




Is the Schwinn Wasp widely accepted as the last classic ballooner? What constitutes 'Classic' in the balloon bike world?

If I had a 1965 Columbia Newsboy Special, this forum would be the right place to be.  If I had a 1966 Newsboy, I would be past the boundary line (technically speaking anyway).  Yet, the '65  and '66 are the same balloon bikes.  

Are the post-1965 Newsboys not eligible as a Classics, even though the 1975 model is basically the same as the 1950 model?

Mr Columbia's Newsboy page:
http://www.vintagecolumbiabikes.com/id117.html


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## MrColumbia (Jun 9, 2013)

Real Steel said:


> Is the Schwinn Wasp widely accepted as the last classic ballooner? What constitutes 'Classic' in the balloon bike world?
> 
> If I had a 1965 Columbia Newsboy Special, this forum would be the right place to be.  If I had a 1966 Newsboy, I would be past the boundary line (technically speaking anyway).  Yet, the '65  and '66 are the same balloon bikes.
> 
> ...






That's why I previously said the "the winner writes the history". In this case enough bike collectors fell into the Schwinn myth a few years ago and Schwinn got to be the standard with little reflection on the rest of the industry. Did you ever reach for a facial tissue to blow your nose and call it a "Kleenex" even if it is another brand of tissue? It's the same in this case. "Classic" is an arbitrary term meaning different things to different people. In the long run, who cares? I say..."_people, list your questions about post 1965 Newsboy Specials here!" _Defy the establishment and set your own standards or no standards at all.  

As Harvey Corman said to Mel Brooks, "_the peasants are revolting_"


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## Real Steel (Jun 9, 2013)

Why not call the category "Classic American-Made Balloon Tire Bikes"?

It keeps the start at 1932/1933 (depending on which camp you're in), and ends with the last of the real balloon bikes (probably Columbia).

Ir also keeps out the china-built balloon bikes.


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## MrColumbia (Jun 9, 2013)

While we are on the subject of re-naming it occurs to me there is a category here called "*Schwinn Stingrays and other Muscle Bikes*". How insulting is that to all the other brands (every one of them more interesting than a Stingray). I'm beginning to think there is a conspiracy on the CABE! Let's start calling it the *CASE* instead. Classic & Antique Schwinn Exchange.


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## Saving Tempest (Jun 9, 2013)

Why, folks...I'm not sure old Captain Kangaroo would understand all the fuss...


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## Real Steel (Jun 9, 2013)

Real Steel said:


> Why not call the category "Classic American-Made Balloon Tire Bikes"?




My question was really more rhetorical than anything else...intended as thought-provoking if you will.

The makers of The Cabe did a pretty good job.  Even if the category titles may be eligible for some comments, their intent and purpose is basically understood.

Still though, this site gets a lot of new people all the time.  I hope their post-1965 American-made balloon tire bikes are welcome here too(?), and that they understand this to be the case.


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 9, 2013)

scrubbinrims said:


> I removed a 28 x 11/2 no. 77 Giant Chain Tread Universal Clincher Des. Pat. No. 43454 from a G and J clincher rim with a Morrow hub dated A or B (that I will verify in the morning as I cannot get to it tonight).
> It is NOT my belief that with the balloon tire, came the clincher style and that the prevailing 28" motorbikes adopted clincher first, albeit in a very limited application as one would expect in such magnitude of change.
> A balloon tire is a wider tire, higher air capacity tire designed to provide a more comfortable cushioned ride and whether or not it is obscure or common, clincher or glue on is not the point.
> Wards offered the first balloon tire unless I see evidence otherwise.
> Chris




This 28" motorbike built by Shelby for distribution here in Richmond, VA (badged a Fox) has G and J clincher rims with clincher tires I noted previously.
The date code on the Morrow hub is B1 or first quarter of the year 1931.
Assuming this bicycle is original (which I strongly believe has its original wheels), 26 balloon tires were not the advent of the clincher tire design.

Personally speculating, I think a tire manufacturer started up clincher tires and not Schwinn or any other bicycle manufacturer can make that claim.
As we know, Schwinn did not make tires at that time nor did they outsource tires with Schwinn on the sidewalls at that time (but Wards did the latter )...they were given a 26"option as were the other manufacturers to adopt the clincher moving forward that was a rare upgrade option previously in 28".
Chris


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## babyjesus (Jun 10, 2013)

MrColumbia said:


> While we are on the subject of re-naming it occurs to me there is a category here called "*Schwinn Stingrays and other Muscle Bikes*". How insulting is that to all the other brands (every one of them more interesting than a Stingray). I'm beginning to think there is a conspiracy on the CABE! Let's start calling it the *CASE* instead. Classic & Antique Schwinn Exchange.




Mr Columbia I think you are getting to the heart of the issue here.  Some people consider all that is not Schwinn as being "off brand" - I literally just read it that way on another thread. The fact that Schwinn 'won' in business terms (did they? - I'm not even sure but after the war maybe) doesn't mean anything more than that they spent more money on their marketing department and less on their bikes - made very clear by the fact that they only made a handful of models after the war and the only differences beyond that were tiny structural ones as well as different paint jobs through the years that followed. It's not suprising they 'won' - but I agree that it's offensive to some degree the fact that just because they are the epitomy of mainstream has meant we have to be like that here on Cabe.  If anybody should be after the actual facts surely it would be us. It's normal for the more interesting or less restricted designs to be the less mass produced or common ones anyway.  

It would be like saying "Lady Gaga and other music" instead of "pop music".


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## Aeropsycho (Jun 12, 2013)

*A=1931...*



scrubbinrims said:


> This 28" motorbike built by Shelby for distribution here in Richmond, VA (badged a Fox) has G and J clincher rims with clincher tires I noted previously.
> The date code on the Morrow hub is B1 or first quarter of the year 1931.
> Assuming this bicycle is original (which I strongly believe has its original wheels), 26 balloon tires were not the advent of the clincher tire design.
> 
> ...




It has been verified for many years since at least 1977 That the lettering sequence starts at A being 1931... so B=1932 I have a 1932 B10-E with Clincher Balloon Tires, I also have a 1934 Ingo Bike with 2" tube inside type non clincher tires I have heard that Ignatz brought the Balloon tire idea from Germany...


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## Larmo63 (Jun 12, 2013)

When you refer to a muscle bike, most people first think of a Sting Ray. I do.Sorry to state

the obvious truth, but them's the facts. I've worked on bicycles since I was a boy and I have 

ALWAYS considered Schwinn to be the best brand in quality, fit & finish, and dealer service.

When I was a kid, there were Schwinn dealerships all over. No other brand came close. Maybe

if I was my dad's age, I may have thought a bit different. I remember looking at the crappy stuff

at Sears, (1960's) and hoping I wouldn't get one of those for Christmas.


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## dougfisk (Jun 12, 2013)

MrColumbia said:


> While we are on the subject of re-naming it occurs to me there is a category here called "*Schwinn Stingrays and other Muscle Bikes*". How insulting is that to all the other brands (every one of them more interesting than a Stingray)....




In fairness to the site - I think that the term "Muscle Bike" is not as descriptive as "Stingrays and other..."  Many more people recognize, visualize, the "type" by the term stingray than by the somewhat contrived term muscle bike.


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## MrColumbia (Jun 12, 2013)

Larmo63 said:


> When you refer to a muscle bike, most people first think of a Sting Ray. I do.Sorry to state
> 
> the obvious truth, but them's the facts. I've worked on bicycles since I was a boy and I have
> 
> ...







 It all depends on where you grew up. There was virtually no Schwinn dealerships where I grew up. Schwinn was the "off brand" here in the 60's. That is one of the "*FACTS*".  to us the "crappy bikes were Murry and Huffy. We did not even know what a Schwinn was beyond an English Racer type bike! Here the term "*Playbike*" was the norm for this class of bikes. This is what we called all of them. All of this speaks nothing to the quality of build. Just what was common in the area we grew up in. 
 Schwinn made more bikes in this era and that is a fact. Again, "_to the winner begets the spoils_". It has nothing to do with quality or design. The real fact is that all, yes all, "muscle bikes" made in the 60's were built like *crap!* It was a dismal time for bicycles. Fab styling rather than quality parts and functional design ruled the day. Truly a bunch of junk but the styles rung true with us kids. We thought we were riding motorcycle choppers and we remember them fondly. 
 And I was making a joke earlier. Lighten up folks!


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## babyjesus (Jun 13, 2013)

Aeropsycho said:


> It has been verified for many years since at least 1977 That the lettering sequence starts at A being 1931... so B=1932 I have a 1932 B10-E with Clincher Balloon Tires, I also have a 1934 Ingo Bike with 2" tube inside type non clincher tires I have heard that Ignatz brought the Balloon tire idea from Germany...




lol - 26 x 2.125 didn't even exist in Europe until mountain bikes came out. If you are talking about Hutchinson balloon tires as were known and used throughout Europe and can still be found on many an old bike out here then they are totally different and have nothing to do with US balloon tires. I doubt therefore Ignaz "brought them over from Germany" since they never existed in Germany and only do today because of 'beach cruisers'.

(I better point out that 26 x 1.75 tires were used on german built bikes for the US market, and perhaps even x 2.125 on the early german built Indian bike, but those bikes were ordered by US companies for the US market and weren't a german idea. I think some JC Higgins were even built in Austria but they were x 1.75 bikes. What is interesting is whether or not the early german made Indian bike had x 2.125 tires on it - but that's not a schwinn anyway)\

edit:  ok having researched those german built Indian bikes in question I think they were made in and around 1936 and had US made balloon tires on them. There is even one on ebay with US Royal tires on it - not that they are orig to that bike - but anyway, it's interesting nonetheless.


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## Real Steel (Jun 13, 2013)

It sounds like 26" tubeless balloon tire bikes are rare (1932 only?).  Here is a set of tires believed to be NOS.  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prewar-Anti...406?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46102fc376

I didn't post them in the eBay section of The Cabe because they seem relevant to this thread.  These are not my tires.


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## MrColumbia (Jun 14, 2013)

Real Steel said:


> It sounds like 26" tubeless balloon tire bikes are rare (1932 only?).  Here is a set of tires believed to be NOS.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prewar-Anti...406?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46102fc376
> 
> I didn't post them in the eBay section of The Cabe because they seem relevant to this thread.  These are not my tires.




26" tubeless tires were fairly common on "juvenile" bikes throughout the wood rim era. The 1932 bike in question on this thread has 26" "balloon Tire Single Tube" having a wider profile than the standard 26" or 28" single tube tires.


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## chitown (Jun 14, 2013)

*Continental made the first balloon tires (prototypes) for Schwinn*








babyjesus said:


> I doubt therefore Ignaz "brought them over from Germany" since they never existed in Germany and only do today because of 'beach cruisers'.




http://books.google.com/books?id=2F...age&q="in 1931, Arnold, Schwinn & Co"&f=false

I just ordered an copy of this book, "Peddling Bicycles to America" by Bruce D. Epperson. It looks like the book is focused on Albert Pope and his company history but includes other nuggets like page 221.

And here is a well written review of the book:

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/254752449


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## babyjesus (Jun 14, 2013)

chitown said:


> http://books.google.com/books?id=2F...age&q="in 1931, Arnold, Schwinn & Co"&f=false
> 
> I just ordered an copy of this book, "Peddling Bicycles to America" by Bruce D. Epperson. It looks like the book is focused on Albert Pope and his company history but includes other nuggets like page 221.
> 
> ...




Wow - great link - great book - well spotted! So the Germans ended up making them to US imperial measurements because the US tire companies wouldn't do it. I think the reason why they were never made for the European market is because they were primarily for children's bikes and in Europe bikes were much more of an adult utilitarian thing.  My guess is the balloon idea was american and came from motorcycles - their tires being much bigger and it's clear kids bikes in the US were made to look more and more like motorcycles in that era.


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## kos22us (Jun 14, 2013)

babyjesus said:


> I think the only difference is clincher v tubular but they are referred to and look like balloon tires. If you look at the text on the right it talks about - hard to read tho I agree. I'm sold on this but I just want confirmation it's a 1932 ad.
> 
> Balloon means 26 x 2.125 or so I have been told numerous times in the past, it being a size reference as opposed to anything else, as in 'big and balloony and fat looking' - very cool
> 
> I'm more concerned if its really a 1932 ad





if he has it listed as a 32' on his site it probably is a 32', the most interesting part of all of this to me is how frank schwinn had to repeatingly fight tooth & nail for a tire maker to make a balloon tire for him while hp snyder or cwc (hawthorne) was just like all yea were going to make a balloon tire no problem, wonder who made the tires on this bicycle in the ad


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## Aeropsycho (Jun 14, 2013)

Aeropsycho said:


> I have a 1932 B10-E with Clincher Balloon Tires, I also have a 1934 Ingo Bike with 26"x2" and 20"x2" tube inside type non clincher tires I have heard that Ignatz brought the Balloon tire idea from Germany...





Like I said... I think Baby Jesus owes Bicycle Jesus a apology... 


Most of the bicycle industry was for children at that period of time in America...:eek:


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## babyjesus (Jun 14, 2013)

Aeropsycho said:


> Like I said... I think Baby Jesus owes Bicycle Jesus a apology...
> 
> 
> Most of the bicycle industry was for children at that period of time in America...:eek:




¿sɹǝƃɐuǝǝʇ pǝpnlɔuı ǝʌɐɥ plnoɥs I ǝqʎɐW


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## Real Steel (Jun 14, 2013)

MrColumbia said:


> 26" tubeless tires were fairly common on "juvenile" bikes throughout the wood rim era. The 1932 bike in question on this thread has 26" "balloon Tire Single Tube" having a wider profile than the standard 26" or 28" single tube tires.




...my ignorance could be fixed, but I'm too stupid to know how...


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## SKPC (Mar 3, 2018)

Ok, this is very relevant to a bike I just took possession of and am attempting to clean up.
WHEN did the 26" balloon clincher 1st come out?   I say this because of this Nov, 1933 Colson Motorbike score. As found below...*not* all orig.
.



This 26" wheelset was original to this bike, and it sports the "new" lobdell clincher style for tube/tire combo.  Lobdel made it available in 1933 for both size wheels I believe.  Below are the original hub shells and rims cleaned up and awaiting repair.
View attachment 763074


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## SKPC (Mar 3, 2018)

Another couple pics of the bike/rims.  Colson also made this exact bike in a 28" version as well. These 26er lobdel clinchers  are 3/16th taller than a modern 559 rim..




28-er



26-er












Most interesting to me is how and why the "evolution" of 28/29ers went towards 26" PLUS!  Perhaps the low pressure plus revolution started in late 32 or 33.   Today, all the experts say this new plus game is the way to go.  What you say cabers?  I thing that the wide 26" plus low-pressure in 32/33 was the 1st "fat"....


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## removed (Mar 6, 2018)

ELGIN WAS FIRST


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## SKPC (Mar 6, 2018)

Thank you.  That is nice to know.   I would like to see your "1st" if possible?


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## removed (Mar 6, 2018)

SKPC said:


> Thank you.  That is nice to know.   I would like to see your "1st" if possible?



IT WAS AN OPTION ON THE 32 MOTOBIKE... YOU COULD HAVE THE 28" OR THE NEW BALLOON TIRE WHEEL SET... SORRY I DONT HAVE A 32 ELGIN


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## removed (Mar 6, 2018)

BLACKHAWKS AND EVERY OTHER UPSCALE BIKE WAS BALLOON IN 33


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## bricycle (Mar 6, 2018)

Elgin and Iver were some of the last too.... 36/37 you could still get  28" wheels. Elgin used "spacers" to lower the 26" fenders closer to the tires on 28" frames for a while.


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## removed (Mar 6, 2018)

bricycle said:


> Elgin and Iver were some of the last too.... 36/37 you could still get  28" wheels. Elgin used "spacers" to lower the 26" fenders closer to the tires on 28' frames for a while.



INDEED


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## SKPC (Oct 4, 2018)

Here is a link to an article discussing the first "balloon" tired bikes and Schwinns' involvement in the transformation to the MOTOBIKE frame designs....
https://thecabe.com/forum/pages/the_first_american_balloon_tire_bicycle/

This well-researched article infers that "balloon" bikes made in 1932 meant they had 28" wheels with some wider tires on the rims, and were not a 26" clincher rim with a separate tube inside.   What years are the Elgins shown above?


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## dave the wave (Nov 8, 2018)

babyjesus said:


> *Hawthorne*
> 
> Is it just me or did everybody just ignore the 1932 Hawthorne ad featuring a bike with balloon tires on it?  I always thought it was Schwinn B line bikes too but I guess that's not exactly true - or somebody has an older Schwinn ad featuring 26x2.125s?
> 
> ...



here's the catalog the bike is offered in.


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## dave the wave (Nov 8, 2018)

here's one of mine.dan lepro and bill triplett also have one.


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## dave the wave (Nov 8, 2018)

here's more......


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## Archie Sturmer (Nov 10, 2018)

*Thanks *for the vintage Ads (and photos) Dave.
So, in 4-pages of posts, and just 2-ads, I see that:
1st. Montgomery Wards, in 1932, had balloon tires; super service tires; and, super service balloon tires.
2nd. Schwinn, in 1933, then had super balloon tires, (as opposed to the 1st original balloon tires).

The 1933 introductory Schwinn Ad describes their product well enough, but I see an odd compounding of words, in the "oldest and most outstanding" manufacturer.  I thought the Pope-Westfield groups were older, but the ad did not explicitly state manufacturers of bicycles.
Today, we _retrospectively _drop the adjective "super" (and that has nothing to do about 1930's ideas from Germany).


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## SKPC (Nov 11, 2018)

Super-duper look at the 26 fat tire emergence...love the rims on the Hawthorne..."Plus" size......


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