# Late 30's/early 40's Claud Butler find



## Simple. (Apr 28, 2017)

Found this a couple months back.  I need to locate and dig into the numbers to maybe narrow down the year.. Just thought I would share it here.  Not sure what I'll do with yet, but I'll likely sell it.  

Enjoy!

Jon


----------



## sam (Apr 28, 2017)

First and easiest is to check the date code on the back of the Williams chain ring. That will give you an idea of the year. This one could be up to early 50s it has a newer type headset. I have a 1952 Claud Butler  luggless  also. This one really looks in great shape.


----------



## bulldog1935 (Apr 28, 2017)

Simple. said:


> Found this a couple months back.  I need to locate and dig into the numbers to maybe narrow down the year.. Just thought I would share it here.  Not sure what I'll do with yet, but I'll likely sell it.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> ...



Nice photo set


----------



## Simple. (Apr 28, 2017)

sam said:


> First and easiest is to check the date code on the back of the Williams chain ring. That will give you an idea of the year. This one could be up to early 50s it has a newer type headset. I have a 1952 Claud Butler  luggless  also. This one really looks in great shape.




Didn't see a number on the chain ring, but the number on the bottom bracket is 621933.  I don't have a real preference on bikes, but if it looks cool I want it.  Haha. 

Is there somewhere else to look for numbers?  I was told if it's old enough it may have more identifying marks than the later models.  Not sure how valid that is?  

I guess I have a problem, like most on here. Haha. Here's some of my stuff...

Thanks for the help! 

Jon


----------



## WVBicycles (Apr 29, 2017)

lugless would be fillet brazed I have a Chaz Roberts and its lugless also but has a Reynolds 531 sticker.


----------



## sam (May 1, 2017)

First look on the back of your chain ring---there should be a stamp on it---it will look like a small knife with the letters e&w beside it --under that will be two more letters (those 2 letters are a date code for when the ring was made) under them is the rings tooth count.
Claud Butler numbers differ a bit (my guess is based on who the builder was) and after holsworth took over around 1955 the system changed and doesn't help much in dating the bike. The steer tube on the fork may also have these numbers on it.
621933 I think is June 1952
I have some CB catalogs I'll look up the model


----------



## sam (May 1, 2017)

Your bike seems to be a Super Velo model. It has the #11 seat post cluster which would make it a super velo or All-rounder. Both Super Velos and All-rounders were medium priced luggless models. And when you look at the Super Velo models you see yours is the model 28

 

 "Super Velo-gents "


----------



## Simple. (May 1, 2017)

Wow that is an awesome document!  Thank you guys for sharing your knowledge.  I am starting to get the itch to just clean it up and ride it around as is.  I don't want to touch any part of it unless I really have to.  Would be a real head turner to ride around Detroit.  

Jon


----------



## sam (May 2, 2017)

Before I close off on your thread, I'd like to add: Your bike is described as "Medium Priced" that doesn't not mean lesser quality. Only that it doesn't have all the bells and whistles. All the top frame builders at the time worked for Claud Butler and at the time your bike was built the Claud Butler company was at the top of it's game. This is a  high quality bicycle that any collector would be proud to own. Clean it and ride with pride---few people are so lucky.


----------



## Simple. (May 2, 2017)

I appreciate it very much!  I'm really unsure of the current day value, and although I'm very mechanically inclined, I would hate to clean this up the wrong way and hurt the bike and the value. If it is a highly collectable bike, I probably don't deserve to own it.

 I enjoy building and re-building old bikes but I usually use the ones that have no restoration value (abandoned frames that have been stripped, spray painted etc) then throw them together with all my swap meet finds and have fun.  

While all this one needs is some cleaning, greasing, and tires I'm starting to feel like I shouldn't be riding it. Haha

Jon


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 2, 2017)

you _should_ be riding it.  



 
Your bar looks like Sibbit or Bailey - you can measure reach and drop and find out.


----------



## Simple. (May 2, 2017)

Yep, just measured.. Its a Bailey.  Nice call!

I just slapped some new tubes in it, wiped it down, and took it for a rip down the street.  It has an awesome feel to it.  Its crazy light.

Unfortunately I discovered the Reynolds quill has a bad crack at the taper..  What are the chances someone has one laying around?

Jon


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 2, 2017)

that's a tough one - I checked Hillary Stone - he doesn't  have any like it.
I recommend searching ebay.uk every morning with your coffee until one turns up.

look at this from New Zealand:
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=291723036696

and I looked again at Hillary Stone - much better price on this - 38 quid:
http://www.hilarystone.com/CChandlestems.html
He dates as '40s


----------



## WVBicycles (May 2, 2017)

as a road bike collector this is one hell of a ride for me I would clean it up it and show it off at every local bicycle show. That's a wild stem I never seen a Reynolds made stem I know most Claud Butlers were made from Reynolds 531 some even weren't marked with the traditional sticker.


----------



## Simple. (May 2, 2017)

Great find.  I just emailed him, thanks for finding those links!  I'll keep you all posted and get some action shots at the Detroit Slow Roll once it's fixed.  

I polished the chain ring and found no markings.  Looks like the two piece chain ring has the bolts brazed together.  The rear fixed cog has a paper sticker still on it from a bicycle shop at some point in Its life. 

Jon



bulldog1935 said:


> that's a tough one - I checked Hillary Stone - he doesn't  have any like it.
> I recommend searching ebay.uk every morning with your coffee until one turns up.
> 
> look at this from New Zealand:
> ...


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 3, 2017)

you're welcome - all part of the fun

Really want to see that bike cleaned up and riding.


----------



## Simple. (May 24, 2017)

Hi everyone.  Sorry its been a while since I posted.  I finally got the new quill... Its the wrong one....  Looks like my original was a two piece design.

The brooks saddle gave up the ghost on my way around the block, all the rear rivets pulled out.  I need to get another seat and stem before I can shred the town.  Anyone have any insight on either?  I'd like to find a good usable brooks at the very least.

Jon


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 24, 2017)

Is that the top of the fork steerer tube sticking out, or is it a stem quill?  
If it's the latter, just take it out and use the one-piece you have. 

If it's the top of the fork, there are a lot of  new 1" threadless stem choices.  
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/stems/threadless-stems.html


----------



## Simple. (May 24, 2017)

It's the top of the fork tube and its tapered too.  Would those threadless stems have a tapered bore in them, or is it straight through?  

I'm starting to think I can press this stem out of the other quill and just use the top portion on my forks?  I might have to give it a shot.  That crack was all the way up!

Jon


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 24, 2017)

Is you steerer cracked? if so, you might be best off replacing the fork.
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/tange-fork

That Reynolds stem is sure pretty - would be nice to use if you could.

Have to admit I've ever seen a stem like that.  Maybe show what you have to Hilary and see what he thinks?


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 25, 2017)

Simple. said:


> ...View attachment 460458



Jon, after looking over this photo, I can't believe the Reynolds stem you bought is not the same as the broken one.
The broken one has a quill bolt.  Did a long quill bolt come out?  Are you sure you just don't have a stuck quill in the top of the fork steerer?

This just in from Hilary
_No the part in the steerer is part of the stem – I'd guess it is stuck because its aluminium. But the one I sent is also two part. Remove the expander bolt completely and the extension should tap off – warming it in the oven might help and also penetrating fluid etc. It should fit on his exactly but there sahould be a short bolt with a piece left inside what he has…
regards

Hilary

www.hilarystone.com
Period bikes and components




_

_
On 25/05/2017 13:07, Ron Mc wrote:
Hilary,
Fellow CR member here.
Do you mind looking at this broken Reynolds stem on a prewar Claud Butler - thread on The CABE. http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/late-30s-early-40s-claud-butler-find.109565/
I sent the OP to you to purchase what looked like the correct replacement.
I believe the original was a quill with a pressed-on aluminum forging.
The OP believes the remaining part above the headset is his fork steerer tube.
Have you seen anything like this?
Thanks for your time and considerate reply.
Ron Mc
Bulverde, Texas
_
So two choices here, either remove the old quill from your fork steerer, or remove the top forging from the new stem and use it (your old wedge should still be in the old quill)

PSS, here's a good price on a Brooks Team Pro
http://planetcyclery.com/price-broo...rail-honey-riveted?utm_source=google_shopping


----------



## Simple. (May 25, 2017)

Wow thanks for taking time to help Ron!  That is great news!  I will try to separate the new quill first as the old stem appears to be stuck pretty good (for now).  If separating the new one seems to be too risky, I will try and tackle the stem in the forks.  I should have this addressed this evening and hopefully some updates.  I just joined here recently and I am blown away by how friendly and willing people are to help. 

I will keep this thread going as I resurrect this bike and take it on adventures!

What would the grip material used back then be like?  I will true the rear wheel tonight and regrease it, then I just need to find a nice patina'd Brooks saddle for it!

Thanks again for all your help!

Jon

These are pictures from when I rescued it and brought it home.


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 26, 2017)

Something else that might help.
The split taper in the top of your stuck stem quill.
*Just slightly* spread that before you install the new reach forging.
Probably the reason your old reach forging cracked to begin with was over-tightening.
Doing this will give you a new press-fit at the joint.
Anytime I remove/install new bars on an old stem, I use a screwdriver blade to spread the bar clamp so everything will move with minimum friction, e.g.


----------



## Simple. (May 27, 2017)

Thanks!  Both appear to be pretty well locked together still.  Even a little heat wasn't enough and the aluminum alloy is very soft so trying to persuade it is challenging.  There's a indexing pin on the top of the new forging, if I can get that pin out, I'm pretty sure I can twist the forging back and forth and separate the two.  It's been in penetrating lube all night so I will try again in a bit!

Jon


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 27, 2017)

try the freezer, too - this has worked for me with stuck screws in antique fly reels.
It's not the cold condition that makes it work, but the cycles through warm and cold.

and logically, a cold stem and a warm forging should separate easier.  
Try overnight in the freezer, and hit the forging with a blow drier


----------



## Simple. (May 27, 2017)

We are back in action.  Had to make a hybrid quill.  The lock pin on the new one was a bigger diameter so I filed the stem groove bigger, then re-drilled the forging so I could use the old style double-bolt setup.  

Still not set on a seat, but I've got some that will get me by for now.  Once I fix the rear wheel I will have some better photos!

Jon


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 29, 2017)

looking forward to a ride report


----------



## Simple. (May 29, 2017)

I found a nice brooks seat that will match the patina.  I've got over 5 hours of cleaning/polishing so far and it's really starting to look like something.  Trying to be gentle with the cleaning process so its taking some time.  Here's some random pictures until the seat shows up!

Revealed the San Giorgio wheels...




And the Bayliss Wiley hubs...




Still can't locate any markings on the chain wheel..




Love these pedals.




Tapered spokes with brass nipples


----------



## Simple. (May 31, 2017)

Got out for it's 5 mile maiden voyage!  Don't mind the seat, a proper Brooks is in the mail!!!  

It took me a few hours to true that rear wheel this morning.  Good thing I'm on vacation all week with nothing to do but bikes and party.  Haha


----------



## bulldog1935 (May 31, 2017)

I'm surprised you don't have a half-dozen likes on that last post - you've made really good accomplishments here, stuck to it, overcome obstacles - and you're riding the bike!!. Congratulations.

about that fork blade boss:
if you look at vintage British bike restorations, it seems they're not complete without a fork-mounted light bracket, even if it's not in use
('52 Raleigh Record Ace)




SJS Cycles sells a duplicate of an original BSA fork mount light bracket
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=311657439621



I also searched up these examples on ebay,uk
out of those, this one is a nice example that is the age of your bike:
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=112397997054

if you want to simply plug the hole in the fork blade, you can find a 5/16-24 (5/16" Fine thread) bolt, about a half-inch long,, at a hardware store, and a matching washer.

A vintage lamp mounted there would use a bottle generator on the front wheel.

A number of makers made logo lamp brackets for the fork mount boss, and they look really cool even without a lamp  (I think this is Rotrax - Raleigh had a heron bracket)
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/odds&sods.html




found this nice photo of a '37 Triumph with a lamp mounted




here's the fork-boss light mount I put together on my Lenton.  The thread is 5/16-24 and I found a speargun shaft tip converter (to M6) that matched the thread.
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=252552457149
The arm is from Somafab.  I tapped a Gino light mount to M6 for the Cygo handlebar light.






I already had the big washer, which was under the boss plug bolt


----------



## fat tire trader (Jun 1, 2017)

Be extremely careful with your stem. and handlebar. Your original stem cracked because of fatigue. The original stem's quill, which is still in your fork has been exposed to the same amount of stress as the part that broke. These stems were not made to be separated and re-assembled the way you fixed your stem. These old aluminum parts can break and cause an accident. Seeing the crack in your stem, worries me about the Reynolds stem that I have in my Higgins. Check your stem and bar for cracks before each ride. I would also look for a replacement crank arm so that you can easily change chain rings.


----------



## Simple. (Jun 1, 2017)

Thanks!!!  I really like that logo'd lamp mount!  I think I will try to get one like that!  It's really fun to do things like this, and I really appreciate all of the info you have shared!


bulldog1935 said:


> I'm surprised you don't have a half-dozen likes on that last post - you've made really good accomplishments here, stuck to it, overcome obstacles - and you're riding the bike!!. Congratulations.
> 
> about that fork blade boss:
> if you look at vintage British bike restorations, it seems they're not complete without a fork-mounted light bracket, even if it's not in use
> ...


----------



## Simple. (Jun 1, 2017)

I think the stem is pretty solid, and the forging was over tightened.  It should be just fine as I re-pinned it, applied loctite green (bearing retaining compound) and torqued the thru bolt.  This design has a double shear vs the other Reynolds stem which only had the quill bolt.  It will be inspected at every ride and get minimal use...  I'm a test engineer and I routinely test things to failure, I'm pretty confident with my fix.  

Btw,  this just happened...



 



fat tire trader said:


> Be extremely careful with your stem. and handlebar. Your original stem cracked because of fatigue. The original stem's quill, which is still in your fork has been exposed to the same amount of stress as the part that broke. These stems were not made to be separated and re-assembled the way you fixed your stem. These old aluminum parts can break and cause an accident. Seeing the crack in your stem, worries me about the Reynolds stem that I have in my Higgins. Check your stem and bar for cracks before each ride. I would also look for a replacement crank arm so that you can easily change chain rings.


----------



## Simple. (Jun 1, 2017)

Yesterday I burned the brazing off of the bolts on the chain ring, re-machined the bosses with 10-32's and countersunk heads and used a nut on the back side as a lock.  Works awesome!


----------



## Simple. (Jun 5, 2017)

New seat and more cleaning!


----------



## bulldog1935 (Jun 6, 2017)

I see now why you wanted the aged saddle - looks 100% authentic.  Congratulations again on the result of your efforts.


----------



## Simple. (Jun 6, 2017)

Thanks!  I put 10 miles on it last night with the new (used) saddle, which brings it to 15 on that seat and 20 on the bike.  So far so good on the stem/quill/bars, wheels, etc.  Everything appears to be solid.  It rides like a dream.. Although I'm new to this type of riding so I wouldn't know what a bad ride feels like.  Haha

Now onto this light bracket!  Any other sweet vintage accessories I should be looking for?  

Jon



bulldog1935 said:


> I see now why you wanted the aged saddle - looks 100% authentic.  Congratulations again on the result of your efforts.


----------



## sam (Jun 10, 2017)

Any other sweet vintage accessories I should be looking for?   ---  Velo Orange sells nice mud guards. A vintage set of Bluemels would also look good. Some lights used batteries so you might find one that doesn't require a gen. to work. But what a great bike you now have!


----------



## sam (Jun 10, 2017)

This is the mark that should be on the back side of your chain ring. 


The bottom number is the tooth count---the top is the Williams logo and the center (in this photo ZF) is the date code.


----------



## Simple. (Jun 12, 2017)

Crazy!  
I took mine off for a better look...  There are no markings on it whatsoever.  I will count the teeth this evening, as I wouldn't mind putting a little bit bigger one on it. 

Jon


sam said:


> This is the mark that should be on the back side of your chain ring. View attachment 479369
> The bottom number is the tooth count---the top is the Williams logo and the center (in this photo ZF) is the date code.


----------



## Simple. (Jun 14, 2017)

Time for another Renyolds quill!!!!

I got hit today in a crosswalk by a lady on a phone.  She hit me, I jumped and landed on my feet somehow but I was holding the bars.  It twisted them horizontally creating a nice crack across.

This is going to suck to go through all this again.

The bike was unhurt otherwise.  No scratches even!

Jon


----------



## fat tire trader (Jun 20, 2017)

I'm sorry to hear that, but glad that only your stem was damaged. I purchased a 1937? Claud Butler SWB tandem this week. If I was you, I would consider replacing the stem with a steel Renolds stem from the same period.


----------



## Simple. (Jun 21, 2017)

That's a good option!  I will add that to my searches to hopefully source one out.  I guess these old bikes are pretty well built to withstand a VW Beetle.  Hopefully I can find a replacement, I was starting to really fall in love with that bike!

Jon



fat tire trader said:


> I'm sorry to hear that, but glad that only your stem was damaged. I purchased a 1937? Claud Butler SWB tandem this week. If I was you, I would consider replacing the stem with a steel Renolds stem from the same period.


----------

