# Chain Ring Identification



## Freqman1 (Jan 17, 2021)

I know I've seen this before but just can' place it. I'm interested in the manufacturer of this bike which is badged as a Duplex. Thanks, Shawn


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## Superman1984 (Jan 17, 2021)

Can't help Shawn but Thanks for showing me a skip tooth I now want for a collection or a custom! 

Now somebody needs to remind you and share the info of this unique chain ring so I can search for it in skip tooth & maybe 1/2" if they ever made it to that era?


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## fordmike65 (Jan 17, 2021)

@hoofhearted 
@Jesse McCauley
@New Mexico Brant


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## Superman1984 (Jan 17, 2021)

fordmike65 said:


> @hoofhearted
> @Jesse McCauley
> @New Mexico Brant



Call'em in  Smart thinking! I now wanna know as much as Shawn does but that may never happen or be retained.hahaha


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## Jesse McCauley (Jan 17, 2021)

I saw that one and I scratched my head a little. 
At first brush it reminds me of the Keim Sun hanger but sans a lot of the finer detail. 
I'm sorry I can't be of more help on this one but I'll look closer into the database once I have some coffee.


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## Superman1984 (Jan 17, 2021)

Jesse McCauley said:


> I saw that one and I scratched my head a little.
> At first brush it reminds me of the Keim Sun hanger but sans a lot of the finer detail.
> I'm sorry I can't be of more help on this one but I'll look closer into the database once I have some coffee.
> 
> View attachment 1340434



@Freqman1 . I don't know how much that helps Shawn but I sure love the open cut outs in that + the "Sunburst" jus' equals 1 Unique skip tooth (wipes drool)


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## hoofhearted (Jan 17, 2021)

The TOC Hawthorne bicycle having a badge featuring
a ''building'' on the stamped badge ... sports that chainring.

patric

@sm2501


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## Archie Sturmer (Jan 17, 2021)

A *Pope*-*Westfield* built (manufacturer) version with a MW Hawthorne badge was shown a couple of years ago — thread # *140547*.
Not sure if it once belonged to a member named Brian.
And I believe that another member may have one of those chain ring sprockets hanging in his workshop display. 

And the _duplicitous_ Pope connection —
the first bicycles sold by Pope may have been ordinary Excelsior-*Duplex* models imported from Coventry England; the first bicycles built by Pope-Columbia may have been copies of the English *Duplex* models.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 17, 2021)

The reason I ask is I am buying the bike--check's in the mail!--and was trying to determine which manufacturer made the bike so I can get the proper pedals and saddle. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Jan 17, 2021)

Ok here are some more detailed pics--Westfield? If so does the serial tell year @MrColumbia? Really trying to nail down year and mfr. Thanks, Shawn


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## Blue Streak (Jan 17, 2021)

Sayre & Company ad from November 26, 1948 issue of _The Terre Haute Tribune_ says their Duplex bicycle was introduced in 1911:


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## Freqman1 (Jan 17, 2021)

That's interesting. See below... I wonder if J.E. sold the store in 1911 to someone else who retained the name and this is the date they are going from? V/r Shawn


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## Blue Streak (Jan 18, 2021)

Another reference to remodeled Sayre and Company store. Founding date of Hatfield-Hughes different than ad above (1893 or 1895?). Reference to Hatfield-Hughes selling high wheels in 1895 not correct as safeties had taken over by then. It does say J. E. Sayre purchased the business in 1906. Cannot find anything on him before this date. Will keep digging. 

From November 28, 1948 issue of _The Terre Haute Tribune:_


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## Freqman1 (Jan 18, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> That's interesting. See below... I wonder if J.E. sold the store in 1911 to someone else who retained the name and this is the date they are going from? V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 1341249



@barnyguey this look like a page from your book. Do you have the source of this information? Thanks, Shawn


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## Blue Streak (Jan 18, 2021)

hoofhearted said:


> The TOC Hawthorne bicycle having a badge featuring
> a ''building'' on the stamped badge ... sports that chainring.
> 
> patric
> ...




Here are two Hawthornes from previous CABE posts with same chainring:


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## Freqman1 (Jan 18, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> Here are two Hawthornes from previous CABE posts with same chainring:
> 
> View attachment 1341507
> 
> ...



Yep I have those pics saved and it looks like the Duplex frame is by the same maker--Pope/Westfield/American Bicycle Company? I assume that regardless of how badged they would use the same or very similar components e.g. bars, pedals, seat as an in-house badged bike? V/r Shawn


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## Archie Sturmer (Jan 18, 2021)

Another *1911* connection might be the patent stamping.  Pope sued Schwinn regarding the November 13, 1888 Smith-National patent # 392,973.  That suit was dismissed on October 13,1911.  Not sure when Pope started that stamping; but one might assume that it was somewhat less necessary after about 1911.

Serial number 110975 looks like one twice previously posted by @popmachines.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 18, 2021)

So thanks to SA here is the earlier post on his bike https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/let-me-know-model-this-bike-is.140384/#post-957033 As can be seen it lost its seat and pedals/clips. If anyone has a restorable seat and a set of these pedals/clips I'm interested. Obviously the Duplex badge was added an no telling how it was originally badged but not Hawthorne either. The bike looks similar to the Hawthornes posted except the tubing sizes may be a little different. My main thing is to determine year and manufacturer. Any help is much appreciated. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Jan 18, 2021)

Evidently this one has been around! https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/help-identifying-toc-bicycle.175628/


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## Superman1984 (Jan 18, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Evidently this one has been around! https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/help-identifying-toc-bicycle.175628/



You own it for now? If you take it apart; pm me about tracing the shape of that chain ring onto something fairly solid.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 20, 2021)

Can I get confirmation on Westfield  built? I'm guessing this bike to be 1899 or so--looks fixed gear. V/r Shawn


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## Ricker (Jan 20, 2021)

I've always thought that this chainring is a 2nd generation of the Keim sun chainring. It is a single plane (not machined in the "spoke" area) and easier to make without the cutouts therefore ABC. Just my thoughts-

Rick


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## Freqman1 (Jan 20, 2021)

Ricker said:


> I've always thought that this chainring is a 2nd generation of the Keim sun chainring. It is a single plane (not machined in the "spoke" area) and easier to make without the cutouts therefore ABC. Just my thoughts-
> 
> Rick



Thanks Rick can you help me understand the ABC/Pope connection a little better? I see on Ken's serial number list it has 1895-99 as Pope, 1900-03 as ABC, and 1904-08 as Pope Mfg Co. Was ABC a consortium that Pope joined and then broke with or did the company actually change hands? Question for @MrColumbia what do the 1900-03 catalogs say on the cover? Pope? ABC? If anyone has them I'd like to see images and cat specifications for 1898- Model 45, 1899-Model 57, 1900-Model 63, and 1901-Model 72. Thanks, Shawn


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## Ricker (Jan 20, 2021)

Shawn, my knowledge is limited relative to many people on this forum. I tend to generalize the history of Pope and ABC. I like to think that while history paints him as a pioneer - and standardized threads are definitely a big help - I also think he was ruthless and used lawyers to absorb so many manufacturers, so he was a bully. I think that he threatened manufacturers until they joined him and sued them if they didn't. Since the bicycle was in decline and motors on the rise it was probably easy to absorb companies. Once he swallowed a company he just used the name or some other identifiable trait of the previous company. I think we all probably think that way about him (another generalization and assumption). I think that Keim was absorbed by Pope and your chainring was one of those interesting traits that he kept. I also question if that chainring was on your bike originally. Your frame could very well be early and the chainring just 5 years later. I'm just guessing here- Keim made frames for the jobbers so I would think he would be a target for Pope. I have two Keim frames and one of them has dropouts(rear fork ends) that seem to be a mix of Keim & Pope. The frame that I think is earlier has nicer dropouts than the other but they both have the same unique axle adjuster. The later frame also has the patented stamp on the BB shell but it says apr 25 9(?)3. the earlier one does not have this stamp. They also both have the Keim sun BB & chainring setup. 

Sorry that was wordy and a bit of a divergence but I wanted to let you know why I was thinking that about your ring. That is one of my favorites and I thought about jumping on that bike when I saw it but I need to save space for some of my grail bikes if I can find them 

Rick


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## Freqman1 (Jan 20, 2021)

Ricker said:


> Shawn, my knowledge is limited relative to many people on this forum. I tend to generalize the history of Pope and ABC. I like to think that while history paints him as a pioneer - and standardized threads are definitely a big help - I also think he was ruthless and used lawyers to absorb so many manufacturers, so he was a bully. I think that he threatened manufacturers until they joined him and sued them if they didn't. Since the bicycle was in decline and motors on the rise it was probably easy to absorb companies. Once he swallowed a company he just used the name or some other identifiable trait of the previous company. I think we all probably think that way about him (another generalization and assumption). I think that Keim was absorbed by Pope and your chainring was one of those interesting traits that he kept. I also question if that chainring was on your bike originally. Your frame could very well be early and the chainring just 5 years later. I'm just guessing here- Keim made frames for the jobbers so I would think he would be a target for Pope. I have two Keim frames and one of them has dropouts(rear fork ends) that seem to be a mix of Keim & Pope. The frame that I think is earlier has nicer dropouts than the other but they both have the same unique axle adjuster. The later frame also has the patented stamp on the BB shell but it says apr 25 9(?)3. the earlier one does not have this stamp. They also both have the Keim sun BB & chainring setup.
> 
> Sorry that was wordy and a bit of a divergence but I wanted to let you know why I was thinking that about your ring. That is one of my favorites and I thought about jumping on that bike when I saw it but I need to save space for some of my grail bikes if I can find them
> 
> Rick



Rick, Thanks for the reply.  I originally bought this bike because of the badge and the Terre Haute connection. I realized pretty quick the badge did not originate on this bike. I'll put the badge in my collection and have bought another badge that I'll build this bike around. It seems the other bikes fund with this chainring are Hawthornes but this one obviously didn't have a Hawthorne badge. I'm probably going to dump way too much money into this but I have a vision for what I want and hopefully will wind up with a cool piece. V/r Shawn


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## MrColumbia (Jan 21, 2021)

Columbia catalogs by year;
1900 cover




1900 inside page


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## Ricker (Jan 30, 2021)

Hi Shawn- I want to edit my earlier post for posterity in the cabe. I am wrong about the chainring being later. I know I have seen this in early literature, I think 1898 or 1899 but I haven't been able to find it again. I did find info about Keim which I was also wrong about Keim sold to a corporation which became Keim Mills around 1906 and that then sold to Henry Ford around 1911. 

Rick


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