# Anybody have any thoughts on this bike?



## BLK80SLT (Feb 5, 2019)

I'm trying to get this bike identified, and am looking for anyone who recognizes certain features like the "A" on the seat tube lug along with the fish mouth stays. I believe It's English, from the 40s or 50s. Accles & Pollock "A", along with serial number 95112 with a 7 below it on the head tube . Nervex professional lugs including the bb with the same serial number on it.  No head tube badge holes.  Here's a few pics. Any help is very much appreciated.


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## bulldog1935 (Feb 5, 2019)

Stunning work on the fork crown - agree on the Nervex head tube lug.
The right fork lamp boss says it's definitely English

I'm also willing to bet the DT shifter boss is English and will only fit Cyclo - 1951 or later.
If there's a left-side shifter boss, it could be as early as 1951, but more likely later than 1957

That's also a pretty large serial number for any English frame builder, so I think I'd be looking for larger and longer-lived shops.


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## BLK80SLT (Feb 6, 2019)

bulldog1935 said:


> Stunning work on the fork crown - agree on the Nervex head tube lug.
> The right fork lamp boss says it's definitely English
> 
> I'm also willing to bet the DT shifter boss is English and will only fit Cyclo - 1951 or later.
> ...



It did have just a right side shifter boss. I had the frame painted, and had him install two new modern bosses. 
The restoration is now complete, but I'd like to be able to decal it if I knew what decals to use.


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## bulldog1935 (Feb 6, 2019)

beauty - great work - I'd be looking at Butler and Hetchins, etc. - see if you can find serial number information - contact Peter Underwood with your photos and serial number - he may have some leads - he scripted out his e-mail addy on this page
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/index.html


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## juvela (Feb 7, 2019)

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A & P advert for their KROMO tubeset from near to the time of subject frameset -





Curious as to crown. EKLA, Haden & Vagner all did models similar to what we have here.  EKLA generally marked their name on the underside so would think that eliminates them from consideration.









Closest Vagner match in me catalogues is the 12+.





Do not have any Haden illustrations from this era.  Suspect they may turn out to be the maker.  One needs to keep in mind that it was common for builders to modify and/or add to frame building bits.

The experts are sure to identify it in due course...

The letter A on the seat lug is telling.  IIRC this mark belongs to one of the larger Brit producers but am unable to bring up the name.

As ever, we need to hear from our Professor @MauriceMoss.  He is sure to eliminate all doubt.

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## OldSkipTooth (Feb 7, 2019)

You gotta love the CABE!


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## BLK80SLT (Feb 7, 2019)

All great info. Very much appreciated. The person who painted it for me, Andy Muzi from Yellow Jersey, said there were no markings on the frame to identify it as Reynolds 531 or A&P, but he said that means nothing. Only the A&P markings on the steerer tube. I know it weighed just under 4 lbs without the fork, so It's pretty light. 








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## juvela (Feb 7, 2019)

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Thanks very much for the additional information and imagery.  

The frame's NERVEX Professioal lugset is pattern nr. 49/162.

Pump pegs appear to be NERVEX as well, item nr. 845.

Have encountered these dropouts previously but do not know maker.  Two possibilities might be Brampton & Cyclo.

As am sure you understand having only a drive side shift boss does not necessarily indicate machine came ex-works with single plateau drive.  It is more than early enough to consider a manual ("suicide") front mech as possible so it may have been constructed with a two plateau drive train.  It does appear sufficiently early that a 4V gear block may have been a possibility (making no claims).

Does the serial which appears on steerer appear on shell as well?

Juy pillar a nice touch.

Brakes appear to be set up without QR...unless I am missing something.

Mounting washer on back side of fork crown is not correct.  It is Weinmann item nr. 1056 and is intended for front side of crown.  Mounting washer for rear side of crown is item nr. 56.




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## BLK80SLT (Feb 7, 2019)

He moved a pump peg closer to accomodate a more modern pump. They were pretty far apart. I also had a left side cable guide added. He used a correct matching piece he had on hand.   I believe the rear dropouts are Stallard, as I've determined through research. Neither the front or rear have any markings at all. I never saw the frame with any previous parts so I really don't know how it was originally set up.  The brakes were a set I had on hand so I put them on until I decide on what will be permanently installed.  I'm deciding between Mafac Racer, or GB Coureur 66. I'm not sure which would be more appropriate.  I'm certainly not restoring it to original, but if I can use some more correct parts, I will.
The serial number is on the bottom of the Nervex shell as well as the steerer tube.  If someone would recognize the pattern of that serial number, it would be a huge part of the puzzle solved.  Andy at Yellow Jersey said it was most likely done by a smaller Artisan in 1950s England, but he couldn't say for sure who. I replaced that front brake seating pad about a week ago.  Nice catch though.


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## juvela (Feb 7, 2019)

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Thanks very much.

The GB Coureur 66 launched 1962 (IIRC!),  the MAFAC Racer slightly earlier but have never known exact date.

If you are able to date frame it may help with fittings choices.

BTW - who is the black spectre we see peeking in?  

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## BLK80SLT (Feb 7, 2019)

juvela said:


> ------
> 
> Thanks very much.
> 
> ...



That would be Buddy. He's one of my five strays that I've kept that people have left on my property over the years. I live on a farm and for some reason people feel It's a good idea to abandon their cats out in the country. I have three inside that no longer ever go out, and two more outside farm cats that never come inside. They never leave my property though and have heated beds on my deck and in one of my barns. Why should they leave?

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## MauriceMoss (Feb 15, 2019)

@BLK80SLT great job with the restoration!

Just for reference, what's the height of the serial numbers? Is it about 3/32"?


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## BLK80SLT (Feb 15, 2019)

MauriceMoss said:


> @BLK80SLT great job with the restoration!
> 
> Just for reference, what's the height of the serial numbers? Is it about 3/32"?



Thank you.

Each number is about 3/16". I think the stamping on the steerer tube was the same size.
Here's an old picture from a former owner.





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## SWPA (Feb 20, 2019)

Sweet rig!


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## juvela (Feb 22, 2019)

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Hello again paws XXVIII,

You mentioned in another thread that shell is threaded righthand on both sides.

Wondering what thread you determined it to be and what was used for your build.

The Francolam catalogue of 1958 shows NERVEX shells as offered in BSC and metric only. (IT, CH & 26TPI and not mentioned)

Possible that builder used a metric shell thst got mixed in the BSC bin or maybe was "just using up what was to hand."

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One detail found slightly surprising is the absence of reinforcement given to seat binder ears.  Typically, when one gets to workmnship of this calibre the builder will either "float" some brass onto the backside of the ears or else braze in a cylinder to give them support.  (Note the deformation shown in the bare metal image of the seat lug.)

By the late 1970's this situation was dealt with by the employment of investment cast lugs on frames of this quality.

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Be bend Ventoux?

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WRT dating - currently thinking a window of 1955-60.

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Readers:  there is another discussion thread on the frame in the British forum retrobike -

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=392481&p=2902782&hilit=stallard#p2902782

[membership not required to read posts or view images]

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All best to our buddy Buddy & friends  

BTW - they may wish to read or post in this thread:

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/lets-see-your-cat.107917/

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## BLK80SLT (Feb 22, 2019)

juvela said:


> ------
> 
> Hello again paws XXVIII,
> 
> ...



I don't recall why I was thinking it was right hand thread both sides. It is not. LH on the ds and RH on the nds. English thread.

I'm not sure what the seatpost clamp might be missing. It seems to work fine, and doesn't appear inadequate to me. I think he cleaned it up somewhat before painting it.




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## BLK80SLT (Feb 22, 2019)

What does "Be bend Ventoux?" mean?

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## juvela (Feb 22, 2019)

BLK80SLT said:


> I don't recall why I was thinking it was right hand thread both sides. It is not. LH on the ds and RH on the nds. English thread.
> 
> I'm not sure what the seatpost clamp might be missing. It seems to work fine, and doesn't appear inadequate to me. I think he cleaned it up somewhat before painting it.
> View attachment 953138
> ...




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Did not intend to suggest anything "missing" from "seat post clamp."

Attempted unsuccessfully to explain something about construction practices.

Apologies for any misunderstanding.

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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Feb 22, 2019)

Nervex lugs and more...


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## juvela (Feb 22, 2019)

BLK80SLT said:


> What does "Be bend Ventoux?" mean?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk




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Within the context of handlebars "bend" is Brit terminology for pattern shape as in "Maes", "Randonneur" or "all-rounder."  These patterns would be termed bends.  Since you assembled the cycle with a GB stem and a GB bar with the "map of Britain" I am thinking it appears to be the GB Ventoux bend.









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Regarding your statement of the shell being right hand threaded on both sides, it appears in the second post on this page -

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/vi...sid=4f62b334e5ebc58e3625df54ed089689&start=10

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Winnie is a cutie 

What a beautiful coat she has!

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## 1951 C.W.S (Feb 28, 2019)

Those dropouts where only used on Raleigh’s from what I know


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## bulgie (Feb 28, 2019)

Giovanni sent those nice catalog scans of Nervex lugs, all with the second pattern Professional, newer than the OP's frame which has the first pattern. First pattern is distinguishable by the "fangs" on the very front of the head tube, versus a "whale tail" on the second, more common pattern.

I don't know when they switched, but I have seen some mid-'50s frames with the second pattern, so I think first pattern means early '50s or earlier.  Of course individual builders who stocked up might have been using first pattern lugs well after Nervex stopped making them.

I think the big "A" stamped in the seat lug was put there by Nervex.  I have seen it on various brands of bike.

Nervex Professional seat lugs have more robust pinch bolt ears than most other lugs -- they generally work correctly for many decades without any sort of added material inside -- though it's still a nice "show off" move for the builder to fill in the hollow bits.

The workmanship on this mystery frame is top notch though, I can't find anything to fault it on. Really beautiful bike and Bravo on the excellent restoration job!

-Mark


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## OhioJones (Feb 28, 2019)

Why does this bike make me picture castle walls and guards?


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## juvela (Mar 1, 2019)

1951 C.W.S said:


> Those dropouts where only used on Raleigh’s from what I know




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Thank you for this post.

Have not previously encountered them on a Raleigh manufactured bicycle.

Do you have any photos showing a Raleigh built with them?

Dropouts are a design by Percy T. Stallard, British racing cyclist and son of a bicycle shop owner. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Stallard

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/stallard.html

http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Transport/bicycles/Stallard.htm

Not all Stallard badged frames received these ends.  Here is one dated as ~1960 which is constructed with an Agrati ends set.






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## 1951 C.W.S (Mar 1, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Thank you for this post.
> 
> ...



Here is my 1952 Raleigh sports “c” tourist
Similar by not identical


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## BLK80SLT (Mar 1, 2019)

My tribute to Percy Stallard.



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## juvela (Mar 10, 2019)

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Regarding the early vs late NERVEX Professional lug patterns -

Have a Francolam catalogue dated 1958 which illustrates the Professional pattern with the late type.

As Mark pointed out above even if we knew a specific changeover date it would not be of help in dating the frame since its maker could have been employing old stock and building on a post-changeover date...

Perhaps this frameset is destined to remain _"a mystery wrapped in an enigma"_ 

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## juvela (Mar 11, 2019)

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Regarding the "A" marking on frame's seat lug -

Mark wrote in his message above that he thought it might have been placed there by NERVEX.

Took me dull "braine" a while to recall it but this was a common marking on French manufactured parts, used to indicate they were of British dimension.  The A here standing for Anglais.

The marking is also referred to as such in _Sutherland's Handbook For Bicycle Mechanics._

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## BLK80SLT (Mar 11, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Regarding the "A" marking on frame's seat lug -
> 
> ...



I figured it had something to do with the lug rather than the frame manufacturer. Thank you for all the great info you and others have provided. I'm getting anxious for warm weather so I can ride it. I took some pics today.










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## BLK80SLT (Mar 11, 2019)




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## juvela (Mar 11, 2019)

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Thanks for the additional photos; looking fine!

Even the ice appears to be melting.

Be the doorless shed an enclosure for firewood?

Sadly, the information on the letter A advanceth not the frame's monniker nor its birth date.

Currently thinking a 1953-58 time window.  But then am wrongo _at least _as much as am righto.

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## BLK80SLT (Mar 11, 2019)

It's a 100+ year old corn crib which is being replaced with a new workshop this summer.

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## juvela (Mar 11, 2019)

BLK80SLT said:


> It's a 100+ year old corn crib which is being replaced with a new workshop this summer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk




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Thank you!

Whenever I hear "corn crib" can no but help to remember the scene in _Jeremiah Johnson_  where Jeremiah returns to the homestead of the crazy woman to find a new resident who has hidden his whole family in the corn crib, against the possibility of injun attack.

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