# Who made "Black Beauty" badged bikes??? and Mont. Wards "De Luxe"



## chitown

Who made "Black Beauty" badged bikes?

I was also wondering about Montgomery Ward "De Luxe" badged?

Could they be the same maker?

Chris


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## dfa242

Don't know much about the M/W Deluxe, but the Black Beauty bikes were made by Haverford Cycle Co. in Phladelphia.  
Funny timing for your question - I just bought this catalog the other day.


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## bricycle

Congrats on your 1k post...sorry I didn't catch it closer....


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## chitown

*Labor Unions VS Corporate Greed... some things never change eh?*

What about Shapleigh Hardware Co St Louis Plate "Speedy" and "Ruby"
or Geo. Worthington, Cleveland O name-plate "Harvard" & "Erie"
or Butler Bros, 375 Broadway, New York City NY
or Wm Frankfort Hardware Co, Milwaukee Wis
or A. Baldwin Co New Orleans
or Hibbard-Spencer-Bartlett Co Chicago Ill
or... there's more but one thing I know is they all were built by the Arnold Schwinn Bicycle Company. At least in 1920 they were.


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## chitown

Interesting that they were demanding a 44 hour work week at .85 per hour.

And in the same issue (Metal Polishers Union) it shows how the Union just secured an increase to $1.00 per hour and a 44 hour work week with Mead Cycle Co.


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## chitown

I think this is an important document for a couple reasons.

1. It shows all many of the badged bikes Schwinn was producing at the time. Sort of a mini Rosetta Stone for teens and twenties bikes. I was unaware they had such big accounts as the Montgomery Wards and the others mentioned.

2. Brings up the possibility that some of these bikes were made by scabs and ex-con's.

3. Mead Cycle Co was making their own frames as of 1920. There doesn't seem to be much info out there on when they started to outsource frames to other manufacturers but a key time might be when George Lewis left sometime after 1924-5 and teamed up with Huffman to build wheels. This is when Dayton Rolled Metal and others probably bought much of Meads manufacturing equipment. It was mentioned that Shelby bought much of this equipment also. 


If Schwinn was making all these bikes for other badges/jobbers, it makes me wonder what accounts Mead had during the teens and early twenties.


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## chitown

*1919 Hawthorne De Luxe Models*

So these would have been a Schwinn built bike according to the strike document.


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## chitown

*So would the Black Beauty bikes of 1919*

Schwinn Built Black Beauty:













And a Haverford Cycle shop in Washington DC:


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## Talewinds

Dooood, wouldn't it be so awesome to find that green "Champion" ^ in nice condition???


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## rustyspoke66

At least by the late 20's to early 30's the Black Beauty was built by H.P.Snyder for D.P.Harris and distributed through Rollfast.


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## Nickinator

Bringing this old thread back to life, got some good info-

So Nick is building a Black Beauty, has the headbadge from the early 1919ish Schwinn-looking one (see pics), but badge says Haverford Cycle Co, Philadelphia, PA- did Haverford build their own bikes, or did Schwinn build them? And could Mead have supplied any parts, like the coat hanger fender braces?

 Nick is still looking for frame/tank?/fork/fenders for this style BB if anyone has anything they're not attached to, please let us know. 

Darcie


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## catfish

I've got this.


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## chitown

Haverford was a jobber/distributor. Schwinn was one of the companies building bikes for Haverford. Havorford may have just assembled bikes similar to Mead where they pick parts from several manufacturers and slap a Haverford badge on them. Making it hard to determine originality or if it is a mix of parts. This also makes it easy to build one up as there is little evidence to dispute what is original equipment.

Patric has said he had a Black Beauty that was a Davis built. Who knows if they used multiple manufacturers in the same year???

That BB sprocket catfish has doesn't look the same construction as the DAYTON or HD sprockets of the late teens early twenties. So I'm not sure if that is an early sprocket just not Davis built or if it's from a later Snyder built BB.


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## Nickinator

I have a feeling mead made some of the black beautys, as I have seen a lot of parts that suggest mead, also explains why schwinn took over making them when mead went under the schwinn roof. (just a thought)  and that might be why black beauty went under and sold the name in the mid 20s-30s to DP Harris.

Nick.



chitown said:


> Haverford was a jobber/distributor. Schwinn was one of the companies building bikes for Haverford. Havorford may have just assembled bikes similar to Mead where they pick parts from several manufacturers and slap a Haverford badge on them. Making it hard to determine originality or if it is a mix of parts. This also makes it easy to build one up as there is little evidence to dispute what is original equipment.
> 
> Patric has said he had a Black Beauty that was a Davis built. Who knows if they used multiple manufacturers in the same year???
> 
> That BB sprocket catfish has doesn't look the same construction as the DAYTON or HD sprockets of the late teens early twenties. So I'm not sure if that is an early sprocket just not Davis built or if it's from a later Snyder built BB.


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## bike

*I read this differently (brilliant research!)*

The last sentence before the list of jobbers says: "Other motorcycles and bicycles treat Organized labor fairly"
and then the list...
Montgomery Ward etc....



chitown said:


> What about Shapleigh Hardware Co St Louis Plate "Speedy" and "Ruby"
> or Geo. Worthington, Cleveland O name-plate "Harvard" & "Erie"
> or Butler Bros, 375 Broadway, New York City NY
> or Wm Frankfort Hardware Co, Milwaukee Wis
> or A. Baldwin Co New Orleans
> or Hibbard-Spencer-Bartlett Co Chicago Ill
> or... there's more but one thing I know is they all were built by the Arnold Schwinn Bicycle Company. At least in 1920 they were.


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## chitown

bike said:


> I read this differently... The last sentence before the list of jobbers says: "Other motorcycles and bicycles treat Organized labor fairly"
> and then the list...
> Montgomery Ward etc....




In the upper "Headline" portion it says the same thing but followed by "Appoint Committees to Visit the Dealers GIVE THESE STRIKES PUBLICITY!" 





It's repeated before giving the list.


This is a list of dealers to visit if you are a union sympathizer or union thug! :eek:

Besides, if this was a list of motorcycles and bicycles that treat organized labor fairly, then Montgomery Wards would be a bicycle manufacturer???


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## sqrly

I just took my time and read the document as properly as I can, given the language changes that happen in a hundred years.  I think Chris (chitown), has it right.  But, I think it can be risky to think that these companies bought exclusivly from AS&Co.  I think alot of companies then just like today would switch every order, while others built lasting relationships and stuck with one mfg. for their goods.


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## ejlwheels

The strike list shows that Haverford was one of many Schwinn accounts.  It does not prove that Haverford never used other suppliers.  Nor does it indicate which models or parts were involved.

To me, the frame and fork in this ad look like they were made by Schwinn.  But the out roll edged fenders are similar to those used on Indians.
*1919 Black Beauty*





Here is a girls BB that matches the Schwinns of the same timeframe:
(it appears to have a standard Schwinn non-truss fork but instead of Schwinn typical fenders it uses early Chief style long noses)
*1920 Black Beauty*





*1917 Schwinn/Excelsior* (notice this Excelsior appears to have a Mead style ribbed fork) 





This girls Black Beauty has seat stays and a front fork that look Schwinny but the curved down tubes do not.  The down tubes look more like something Snyder would make.  (It would make sense for D.P Harris to have a relationship with Haverford since they evidently later bought the Black Beauty brand.  The down tubes could be a modified Schwinn, with the down tubes spaced further apart, but since I suspect that Haverford was trying to source parts cheaply, off the shelf, I doubt they would arrange for special, costly modifications.)  Can anyone ID this girls frame?
*mystery year, mystery make*





Nor does the the above girls Black Beauty fully match Davis frames:
*1920 Davis Dayton*


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## chitown

ejlwheels said:


> The strike list shows that Haverford was one of many Schwinn accounts.  It does not prove that Haverford never used other suppliers.  Nor does it indicate which models or parts were involved.
> 
> To me, the frame and fork in this ad look like they were made by Schwinn.  But the out roll edged fenders are similar to those used on Indians.




Fenders on the Schwinny bike look like the 1914 offerings from International Stamping.






As a jobber/assembler it looks like Haverford was building with whatever stock they could get.

I stated in the Davis thread that there is a good chance that several makers were providing frames for Haverford (even within the same year) so knowing what is correct can vary widely depending on year, model and probably the location of the Haverford dealer. More east coast shops probably used the Snyder stuff more than Schwinn. This would have saved greatly on rail/shipping costs. I have no facts to back this up, just looking to untangle the web of the bicycle industry of that time.


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## Nickinator

Here are some close ups and better pictures of the frame Eric is referring to, I now own this frame,


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## bricycle

Nickinator said:


> Here are some close ups and better pictures of the frame Eric is referring to, I now own this frame,
> View attachment 121925View attachment 121926View attachment 121927View attachment 121928




what's in pic 3? I want those...


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## dfa242

Here's an interesting excerpt from Haverford's 1919 Black Beauty catalog about not using jobbers.


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## sqrly

bricycle said:


> what's in pic 3? I want those...




I'm thinking those are for the skirt guard.


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## Nickinator

truss rod holders.

Nick.



sqrly said:


> I'm thinking those are for the skirt guard.


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## hoofhearted

*Thanks for ALL the Help .. thru the Cabe AND Off The Line .....*

....................................





...............  patric cafaro


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## Nickinator

question, how many company's made left hand side tank doors? or did most makers do this.


Nick.


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## chitown

*Harley Davidson?*

I thought I'd look up the Harley girls bikes to compare.


28" tires on the adult ladies HD. Interesting to note the adult bike has flush joints and the Juvenile has lugs. Two different manufacturers??? Just like Haverford and Mead, and Sears did Harley use multiple sources for their frames, making them there own with that famous HD chainring??? And Walter Green's International Stamping deep drop fenders???








And here is the juvenile with 26" tires







Any pics of serial # stamping on the BB???


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## jd56

*Skirtguard lacing rear axle rings.*



Nickinator said:


> truss rod holders.
> 
> Nick.




Nick, actually when I dismantled the frame you now own, those ring retainers were mounted on the rear dropouts. And the fenders were predrilled for laced skirtguards. 
If you blow up this picture you can see the placement of these ring brackets.





Here is the rear fender...or what's was left of it.


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## fordsnake

hoofhearted said:


> The following is nothing more than a presentation.  It remains within the hopes of this typer ...
> that All Bicycle-Manufacturing Companies producing the Black-Beauty Bicycle for Haverford
> Cycle Co. can come to light and be recognized for their achievements.
> 
> Have made a bunch of discoveries ........
> 
> The BB was Schwinn-Built for some Model Year(s). The Schwinn Motorbike of the mid-teens and
> twenties had a 1-inch diameter top bar AND a 1-inch diameter Undertank Bar.  A Double-Brace
> was used to help support BOTH the front and rear fenders.
> 
> The BB was Davis-Built for some Model Year(s).  The Davis Motorbike of the mid-teens thru 1922
> (Davis had NO 1923 PRODUCTION of bicycles) .. to continue .. had a 1-inch diameter top bar AND
> a 7/8" Undertank Bar.  A single fender brace was used to help support the front fender WHILE a
> double fender brace was used to support the rear fender.
> 
> The BB .. also .. was made by an Unknown Builder .. whose frame-features are remarkably similar
> to those Motorbikes of the Miami-Cycle & Mfg. Co. from 1917 thru 1922 .. the final year Miami produced
> bicycles.  This '17 thru '22 Miami-Built Motorbike has a Drop-Top-Tube of 1-inch diameter -- as do
> many motorbikes of the era AND ALSO has an Undertank Bar with an o.d. diameter of *11/16-inch *...
> AND .. a double-brace was used to help support BOTH the front and rear fenders.
> 
> Generally speaking .. it may be very-difficult for anyone to find a teen's-era bicycle with less that 1-inch
> main tubing.  Some of the exceptions are the Davis-Built Road-Racer ... the Davis-Built Track Racer (much
> shorter wheelbase) .. and the 20-inch and 26-inch wheel, juvenile line from Davis.  These rides all have
> main-tubing of 7/8-inch (o.d.) ... and it must be noted that some of the 20-inch wheel juvies from Davis
> have been seen with 3/4-inch main tubing.
> 
> Other manufacturing companies MAY HAVE ALSO PRODUCED similar, specialized bicycles ... to 'round-out'
> their-particular line of bicycles.
> 
> However .. this typer HAS NEVER SEEN a teen's-era motorbike with an 11/16-inch, o.d. diameter Underbar
> ... as has been witnessed on those particular Miami-Built Motorbikes .. 1917 thru 1922.  If there are such
> examples ... built by a company other that Miami Cycle & Manuf. Co. ... i would be delighted to look upon it.
> 
> It is important for this typer to indicate that i've owned a housepainted Davis-Built Black-Beauty Bicycle ...
> the frame ... a Davis, Model-Year 1920 ... '21 or a '22.  All that remains of that sad, tortured Black-Beauty
> is the badge and the heavy-duty truss-fork.  The Six-"B" chainring was gifted to Eddie Boros of Chicago ...
> who had amassed a remarkable collection of different Black-Beauty Badges.
> 
> That particular frame was found damaged beyond recognition ... which isn't so bad .. after-all .........
> that _particular_ 3-year period of Davis-Built Motorbikes were so very ugly in their design ... that Time Magazine
> voted Quasimodo .. to be the sexiest man of all-time ... during that 1920 thru 1922 period.
> 
> While I, personally, believe Miami-Cycle produced the Black-Beauty Bicycle during un-disclosed model years ...
> I certainly do not expect everyone and their first-grade teacher to be shouting from the tallest rooftops .. that
> very chunk of my belief.  To be sure ... much more research is indicated .. before a conclusion can be reached.
> 
> ........ patric
> 
> View attachment 128756View attachment 128755View attachment 128758View attachment 128759View attachment 128764View attachment 128763




Patric, forgive me but I believe this belongs here.


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## fordsnake

The initial question Chitown asked; Who made "Black Beauty" badged bikes?

I believe we’re all in agreement the name was held by two enterprising bicycle companies: Haverford Cycle Company and D.P. Harris Hardware & Manufacturing Company. 

Each company a purveyor of various bicycle parts & sundries and also distributed products from other manufacturers in the bicycle industry. 

There are some conjectures that the Miami Cycle Co, was a manufacture of the Black Beauty bicycle? 

So while many suppositions are being made (myself included) based on a visual interpretations of frame designs & geometry. I’ve been digging deeper into the historical facts and I've uncovered some rather interesting factoids that has lead me to a different conclusion!

Stay tuned.

Carlton


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## chitown

fordsnake said:


> Stay tuned.
> 
> Carlton




Dude, come on and spill the beens! We are all in agreement that we have yet to scratch the surface of some of the dealings of the teens era bikes.

Okay, until you post your findings I'm just gonna make up a bunch of hoo haa and eventually one of them will be close to being right and I'll be able to say "told you so."

Haverford, as one of the largest jobbers of bicycles in the country would buy from every available manufacturer to insure being invited to the Atlantic City bicycle conventions each year.

Haverford, as one of the largest jobbers of bicycles in the country would buy from every available manufacturer to insure a wide variety of frame styles and keep competition tight by threatening to drop a particular manufacturer if they didn't get the price they wanted. 

Haverford, as one of the largest jobbers of bicycles in the country would buy from every available manufacturer to keep up with Sears and James Mead with their mail order business.

Haverford, as one of the largest jobbers of bicycles in the country would buy from every available manufacturer to insure confusion and misinformation on a web forum almost one hundred years later.

Haverford, as one of the largest jobbers of bicycles in the country would buy from H P Snyder because he was a US Congressman and Haverford could always use some muscle in DC to get favorable tax status as a manufacturer rather than a resale merchant. So this was part of a conspiracy to hide the truth about Haverford as an assembler/jobber rather than a true builder of bikes.

Haverford was a successful jobber that sold all of it's locations and naming to Snyder in the early twenties because Snyder was looking for more DP Harris hardware locations and Haverford had a large, organized infrastructure. This was just as the "cycle shop" was being replaced by the hardware store which would also carry bicycles.

The jobbers were just as much puppets as the manufacturers were with all the bicycle parts trade manufactures pushing their product to be carried on your shops bikes. Tire companies like Firestone were  leading the charge pushing their tires on the public in your stores and meanwhile holding shares in essence by putting up the tires as credit.  Companies would be shut down from these creditors just as so many before when a "call for cash" is made by the creditors and all the creditors include: Frame manufacturers, Hub manufacturers, Spoke Manufacturers, Fender and Tank Manufacturers, Handlebar, pedals, chain, tubing, Rims and tires/rubber. Haverford was loosing the battle to mail order and hardware stores.


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## fordsnake

Oooh, you're so close...I've discovered Haverford had multiple tentacles in the bicycle industry. It certainly was interesting to me to discover Haverford Cycle Co., was more than a retailer! Check out this compilation, it’s part of a 4-page article, showcasing all of the trade; part suppliers, distributors, jobbers, and manufacturers…look who's among the bicycle builders (center row, 11 from the top)?







There so much to share...here’s a tad to whet your appetite, until I’m able to get all of my findings together to present.


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## chitown

Haverford shops were scattered all over the east. They were set up more as a brick an mortar retail outlet vs the mail order companies of Mead and Sears. In the late teens they were loosing the battle so they started to produce a catalog and try the mail order method. Problem was, they didn't have a distribution and crating system like the other mail order companies. Just look at how these bikes are being treated. How many chips in the paint before it even made it under the Christmas Tree.







*Merry Christmas*


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## chitown

fordsnake said:


> Oooh, you're so close...I've discovered Haverford had multiple tentacles in the bicycle industry. It certainly was interesting to me to discover Haverford Cycle Co., was more than a retailer! Check out this compilation, it’s part of a 4-page article, showcasing all of the trade; part suppliers, distributors, jobbers, and manufacturers…look who's among the bicycle builders (center row, 11 from the top)?




Well if you look at the WHOLE series of that trade magazine they are only listed once on the manufacturers list. I think this had to do with their side-car they made called a Side Seat.

The motorcycle was just a March-Metz clone with a Haverford decal.

They appear only as a Jobber on most of the other lists of Motorcycling & Bicycling Review

The clip you posted was from Nov of 1914

In the next issue and going forward they are NOT listed as a bicycle manufacturer but are listed in the "Side Seat" section.


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## fordsnake

So did Haverford make the two seater or supply it. Check out the dates of the M-M motorcycle? Chicken or egg?


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## chitown

fordsnake said:


> So did Haverford make the two seater or supply it. Check out the dates of the M-M motorcycle? Chicken or egg?




Marsh Metz goes back to 1909 I believe. There were many other brandings of the Marsh-Metz including _the ARROW_.


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## fordsnake

My research says the Haverford was built by the American Motor Company of Brockton from 1909 through 1914. It was later re-badged Marsh-Metz.


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## chitown

http://metzauto.wordpress.com/category/marsh-metz-motorcycle/

*Metz Leaves American Motor Company

Metz Leaves American Motor Company
Motorcycle Illustrated
January 15, 1909 Page #8*

C.H. Metz for three years mechanical head off the American Motor
Company, Brockton, Mass., announces his retirement from that firm. He
has purchased the Waltham Manufacturing Company’s plant, at Waltham
Mass. This concern makes the Orient automobile, and by his new
acquirement Mr Metz becomes the largest individual operator of an
automobile plant in America, the capacity of the Orient factory being
5,000 cars a season.

 Since 1882 Mr. Metz has had experience along the
inventing, manufacturing and selling end of bicycles, motorcycles
and automobiles. He is a man of undeniable inventive talent, as well as a
practical man. He started in 1882 as an enthusiastic rider of the
high wheel bicycle. In 1885 he was the champion racing man in central
New York State, his home being in Utica.

 In 1886 he commenced to manufacture bicycle attachments.
In 1891 he led the crusade for lighter bicycle construction; in 1893
he organized the Waltham Manufacturing Company, makers of the
Orient bicycle, which concern he has just bought. And he increased
their output in three years up to 4,500 machines per annum, while in
1897 the total number of machines manufactured was 15,000.
In 1898, the concern started to manufacture automobiles, and also,
for the first time, produced a motorcycle. In 1902 they built Metz motorcycle,
and on this Mr. Metz made a mile record straightaway of 1.10 2-5, which
was an extraordinary record for those days. In 1905 Mr. Metz affiliated
himself with the American Motor Company, and the next year, marketed
the Marsh-Metz motorcycles. Surely this is a fine record, and no doubt Mr.
Metz will still further enhance it in his now enterprise.


It looks as if the American Motor Company was just selling off old stock (for some years) to anyone that wanted to have their own private brand motorcycle. Cashing in on the MM design.


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## hoofhearted

*Carlton ... Chitown ..... Good Stuff You're Posting ... Very .. Very Good !!!*

Thanks !!!!

.............  patric


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## fordsnake

Cool thanks for the info...so you'd agree motorcycling was a passion of Max M. Sladkin?


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## chitown

Let's not forget the 1914 Peerless. Yet another example of a rebadged/relabeled/resold Marsh-Metz


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## fordsnake

I’m in the process of doing a BB timeline. This technique helps me to understand the business strategies at the time. The market trends, indulgences, potential growth, and the opportunities; these are all indicators and influences on what provokes a business to make its decisions.

Unlike today where many decisions are made by a large committee in a boardroom. Back then many deals frequently happened in a smoke-filled back room over an aperitif and a handshake.  

I believe it’s important to understand all of the possible outside influences...when there’s so little information as to the actual product.


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## chitown

*Ace Motor Corp / post Haverford*

Haverford was involved in a cash call and forced to settle with creditors in 1920. Firestone Tire co was the main creditor with Haverford being $16,000 in debt to them. I'm not sure what happened to the branch locations but permission to use Black Beauty as a nameplate may have been part of the dissolution of Haverford. I'm pretty sure Snyder got that right and  Black Beauty bikes were exclusively Snyder built after 1920-21.



fordsnake said:


> ...so you'd agree motorcycling was a passion of Max M. Sladkin?




Yes he did have great passion, along with 340 other groups of people forming corporations to enter the motor business. But if you're going to pick a partner, you can't do much better than William Henderson as your chief engineer.













Looks like they had a winning design too! (though is it coincidence these just look like the Henderson 4 of Schwinn??? Conspiracy theorists (like this typist) would say that it is *not *a coincidence they won the Police contract... the fix was in to begin with. The Philly Police Dept had connections with the Chicago Police Dept who used the Henderson 4's also.  I really want to know more about the Philly PD Assistant Purchasing Agent H S McFadden.  But I don't think he's the type to name names, so we may never know the true story.





Tragedy strikes when Henderson is killed in a motorcycle accident in 1922








Eventually Ace would go the route of dissolution again as with Haverford.


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## chitown

*1911 Haverford Blue Beauty*

the *"Blue Beauty"*


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## chitown

Getting back to the question of Black Beauty and who built them. Rollfast is known to advertise them with DP Harris on the badge in the mid-late twenties. But what about earlier. What does a 1920 Homer P Snyder bike look like? I think these are likely candidates for some of the offerings from Haverford.


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## ejlwheels

This does not necessarily advance the cause of answering who made "Black Beauty" badged bikes.
I'm working backwards from Chitown's claim that Haverford was basically dissolved in 1920.

First off there is this ad from April *1920*.
This looks like a Schwinn built frame to me.  It has pinched seat stays, a very Schwinn-like truss fork, and 2 separate truss rods.  But it has non-Schwinn fenders what appears to be a large 3-screw head badge.








In this ad and catalog page from *1919*, it may or may not be the same frame, but the fork is definitely different.  The fenders are possibly the same, but the braces are flat instead of wire or rods.  In the catalog it appears to have the same large 3 hole badge.  Notice the price is pasted over.  Are they re-using the previous year's catalog?





In this ad which refers to the *1919* catalog (possibly run in 1918 in advance of the catalog) the bike is pretty much the same but the badge appears to be a smaller, 2 hole type.








I was looking at Howie Cohen's site and I never really noticed this foldout before.  There it is attributed to roughly *1917*, which seems about right since tanks didn't really catch on until around 1915/16, and we already have ads for 1919 and 1920.





The frame and the fork may or may not be the same but the truss rods are separate at the top again.  And look at that torpedo tank.





Which brings me to this bike that I bought on the CABE.  It did not seem to look quite like any of the ads that I had seen.  Yet it has grips with Black Beauty stamped into them and Black Beauty stamped on the saddle flaps. (It had the wrong wheels, but it came with a nice little "Davis" stand).  It has the smaller badge.




This shows the use of the smaller badge in this catalog.


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## Nickinator

My black beauty catalog shows no re pasted price on my traveler page weird



Nick.


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## ejlwheels

Nick,
Yours says $52 instead of $62.
What is the date on page one?


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## Nickinator

1919


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## fordsnake

ejlwheels said:


> Nick,
> Yours says $52 instead of $62.




Is there a dealer stamp on your booklet? Often dealers & stores will raise prices above the MSP (manufacturer's sales price). Using a printed swipe is an effective and efficient way of repurposing the manufacturer's printed material.


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## ejlwheels

I don't see any dealer markings.
I only have scans, but they do seem to show every page.
But I don't think it really matters, since both say 1919.
There is no evidence of recycling a 1918 catalog,
only evidence of price variability.


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## dave the wave

I know someone that has a bike like the BB Champion.his is a Marshall Wells Zenith.it has that rare truss rod mounted light and the round sided tank.the tanks door is just a metal flap that's located on the right side of the tank towards the back.the metal is like paper thin and dents very easy.the front cap is real thin metal too its not like the heavy duty gauge metal that westfield uses for the indian and columbia tanks.


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## ejlwheels

I would like to see pictures of it!  

Marshall Wells was a hardware company in Duluth.
The bikes I've seen with their badge were primarily Snyder and CCM made.
There aren't many similarities between the bikes of those 2 makers and the Black Beauty bikes.
I don't know if I've ever seen a teens or 20's Snyder made bike, but their frames from the 30's never have pinched rear seat stays.


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## dave the wave

*here's a ad.*

its just like this one.


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## ejlwheels

Thanks for the ad.
That frame looks different from the Black Beauty with the torpedo tank.
The Black Beauty appears to have pinched seat stays but the Zenith does not.
Also, this Zenith ad is from 1924 and Haverford was supposedly out of business by the end of 1920?
The Zenith has a 5 point star sprocket that I don't think I have ever seen before.


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## ejlwheels

I found this recently.
It says that Haverford bought a new building in 1919.
Perhaps they were overextended and that led to the cash call in 1920.








Also, this was on ebay a while ago.
The shape of this tank does not seem to match any of the frames in any of the ads I have ever seen.


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## chitown

dave the wave said:


> its just like this one.




Marshall Wells Hardware is listed in the strike document!!! Schwinning! 






I still believe that most of Haverford's line were built by multiple manufacturers. But this furthers the case for Schwinn building many of the Black Beauty badged bikes in 1918-early twenties range or until Snyder got the badge/name rights.


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## Nickinator

if anybody has the link/ ANY info where this tank might have gone I will pay a finders fee $$

Nick.



ejlwheels said:


> .


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## chitown

But without seeing late teen HP Snyder frames to compare to, we still don't have a complete picture of all the possible manufacturers. And because they did advertise Black Beauty as a DP Harris brand in the mid twenties, we should consider them likely builders for Haverford as well. Especially because of the location of DP Harris being in Pennsylvania as was Haverford. So less freight costs.

Patric was leaning towards Miami due to the smaller diameter lower top tube as a key feature only known to Davis and Miami. With Schwinn using a 1" lower top tube on their motobikes. But Oldnut's recent teens Schwinn built Excelsior truss bike has a smaller diameter lower tube even though it is a truss frame. I would go back to reference the War Industries Board document of 1918 that states motobike or delivery bikes would only use a cross bar of least possible amount of steel. Thus a smaller diameter tube was more than likely used by MANY manufactures of 1918ish rangs.

Like this 1920 Snyder built Rollfast!


----------



## dave the wave

*here's the bike.*

here it is...


----------



## chitown

*Awesome BIKE!*



dave the wave said:


> here it is...




That don't look like no Schwinn... perhaps Miami or Snyder frame???  Not familiar with that fork. Do the truss rods merge to a single bolt or stay separate?

  Thanks for the pics Dave!


----------



## dave the wave

that would be snyder or excelsior made.i've never seen a tank like that.


----------



## ejlwheels

That bike appears to have has non-pinch stays as in the Zenith ad.
That starflake sprocket on the Zenith looks like sprockets Shelby was using in the late 30's?






But I think Shelbys of the 20's had pinched seat stays also.
And I don't think I've seen trumpet flares on any Shelby joints.

Frames by Snyder, Shelby (and Davis?) seem to frequently use that kind of seat post collar/shim.

I think your friend's frame looks kind of like a Snyder.
The fender upper bridge in the Zenith ad looks like it has a pronounced curve to it which is kind of a Snyder signature.


----------



## dave the wave

that's what i was thinking.


----------



## ejlwheels

The lower top bar on the Zenith attaches to the down tube.
In the 1919 catalogs, the Black Beauties with the single point truss termination appear to have this same frame construction with the top bar attaching to the down tube.
The Black Beauty with the torpedo tank pictured in "1917" flyer appears to have its lower top bar attach to the head tube, just above where the down tube attaches.


----------



## hoofhearted

ALL ... throwin' this ad out there ... not sure if i should .. but here it be ...... 

Seems like this ad is _cryin'_ to be seen ... what with all the hoop-la over 
these early motorbikes ...

Ad foto from an e-b auction ..... Unknown date .......

.......... patric


----------



## ejlwheels

To me, the tank on the Davis Dayton looks a lot like the tank on the Zenith?

I found this ad from a 1917 Monty Wards catalog





The bike was previously attributed to Schwinn by some.  I think the fork might be Schwinn made, but the frame in the ad does not have pinched rear stays so I don't know.  It does have the same star flake sprocket as the Zenith.  The spars on this early star flake look a little more delicate than on the ones used by Shelby in the 30's.


----------



## hoofhearted

*(WHISPER-MODE IS ON ......... Vinnie Boombah rolls his 14-pounder down the hardwood avenue .. 
the ball veers left .. the ball veers right .. finally settling on center-lane.  All the gusto Vinnie had in 
his arm when he tossed the projectile .. was draining right outta that ball on it's way to punch out 
the entire group of soldiers.  

After what seemed to be like a short eternity .. the ball gently pushes-aside and knocks out maybe 
five troops ... leaving as many standing to the left and right.)* 


*Not bad for a man who was celebrating his one-hundred and seventeenth birthday at the moment.*


Could be *this* ad has the same effect .......


----------



## ejlwheels

Hard to see for sure, but that Yale appears to have detachable truss rods and a non-Davis fork?


----------



## hoofhearted

*ejlwheels ... my, what keen eyes you have ...* that Yale in the illustration (e-bay seller says it's circa 1924)
is very similar to Scott McCaskey's 1923 and later, Shelby-Built Speedway Special ...... 

Go ahead and peep those frame-tube lugs ... very much a Davis-Dayton feature ...... hey ... *not so fast* ... you're 
gonna miss those very-familiar (supposedly Dayton Models Only) bent tab, rear axel adjusters ...............


----------



## dave the wave

here's a bike from luxlow.com


----------



## ejlwheels

The Luxlow bike tank looks kind of like a Westfield item. 
But a fork similar to Excelsior...?


----------



## chitown

This thread is going off on some wild tangents. Loving it. I'm guessing that most tanks, like fenders were built by a separate company and not by a bike manufacturer like Schwinn, Davis, Westfield, Snyder or Miami. Standard Welding, International Stamping, Wald and McCauley are all likely candidates for these tanks. 

eta: (forgot about McCauley... see Patrics ad below)

Getting back to the strike document stating that Schwinn built for not only Haverford but for Wards as well. The illustration for the 1919 Wards Deluxe shows a built in drop stand ear just like the 1,000,000th Schwinn ad and oldnuts teen Schwinn. But how long did they build for Montgomery Wards? And was it limited to the DeLuxe. Most Hawthorne *Flyer*'s I know of are Snyder built. So this would further show that multiple manufacturers shared accounts for jobbers, within the same year even.

*1917 Schwinn*






*1919 Hawthorne DeLuxe*






oldnuts teen Schwinn





Here is a Schwinn built Hawthorne DeLuxe. Unknown for exact year but looks late twenties to early thirties.


----------



## hoofhearted

Very good presentation ... *chitown ...* those built-in dropstand "stop" ears amaze me .. there 
is plenty o' mystery in the teen's and twenty's bicycles !!!


----------



## ejlwheels

I agree that Oldnut's Hawthorne looks Schwinn-made.

I agree that sellers and brands like Haverford _Black Beauty_, Monty Wards _Hawthorne_, Sears _Elgin_, and Mead _Ranger_ all probably used multiple suppliers even within the same year.


In the teens, Shelby was a tube manufacturer supplying frame tubing and handlebars to many, including Davis.  When Davis goes under, Shelby is most likely owed money, and a few Davis people and some supplies go to Shelby and then Shelby starts making bicycles.  Then some Davis and Mead guys start making rims in the old Davis factory.

Someday we will be able to put together a family tree.


The McCauley tanks are another good example of the cross pollinating.
The tanks alone will not always indicate who made the frame.
And I think frame is really the main thing we care about when we're trying to ID a bike.
Just about everything else was made by someone else (or might have been swapped by the time we get our hands on it).
The handlebars were made by Shelby or Wald or Torrington.
The fenders were made by International Stamping or …
The hubs were made by Morrow, ND, etc…
The saddles were made by …
The rims by …
The spokes by…
The pedals by…



I have 3 of the 4 McCauley tanks pictured in the ad above.

*No. 3* seems to be the most common and fits the most frames made by different builders.
I believe it fits a 1934 Colson Flyer





and early 30's Elgins and possibly some MW Hawthornes, maybe even the jr. style schwinn motorbikes







*No. 1000* is suited to circa 1935 Shelby made motobike frames (I don't know of any others)







*No. 1001* fits circa 1935 Snyder built frames like this Hawthorne (Emblems have a nearly identical geometry)







*No. 900*, which I do not possess, looks like it is made to fit the same geometry as *No. 1001*
and I do now suspect that the Luxlow frame pictured above looks like a McCauley (not Westfield) tank on a Snyderish/Emblemy frame with a ? fork and rods seen on some Excelsiors.


----------



## hoofhearted

> ejlwheels says, "I agree that sellers and brands like Haverford _Black Beauty_, Monty Wards _Hawthorne_, Sears _Elgin_, and Mead _Ranger_ all probably used multiple suppliers even within the same year.
> 
> 
> In the teens, Shelby was a tube manufacturer supplying frame tubing and handlebars to many, including Davis.  When Davis goes under, Shelby is most likely owed money, and a few Davis people and some supplies go to Shelby and then Shelby starts making bicycles.  Then some Davis and Mead guys start making rims in the old Davis factory.
> 
> Someday we will be able to put together a family tree."







> ejlwheels also says, "The McCauley tanks are another good example of the cross pollinating.
> The tanks alone will not always indicate who made the frame.
> And I think frame is really the main thing we care about when we're trying to ID a bike.
> Just about everything else was made by someone else (or might have been swapped by the time we get our hands on it).
> The handlebars were made by Shelby or Wald or Torrington.
> The fenders were made by International Stamping or …
> The hubs were made by Morrow, ND, etc…
> The saddles were made by …
> The rims by …
> The spokes by…
> The pedals by…"




*This Typer is in Total Agreement with ejlwheels ....*

....................  patric


===========================================================================================================


----------



## chitown

ejlwheels said:


> In the teens, Shelby was a tube manufacturer supplying frame tubing and handlebars to many, including Davis.  When Davis goes under, Shelby is most likely owed money, and a few Davis people and some supplies go to Shelby and then Shelby starts making bicycles.




Shelby tubing and Shelby Cycle mfg are two separate companies. Here is a clip talking how the company was formed in Illinois and chose Shelby to use because the old lamp works factory was offered up rent free!


----------



## hoofhearted

> Shelby tubing and Shelby Cycle mfg are two separate companies.




Thank you *chitown* ... I stand corrected ........

.............  patric







==============================================================================


----------



## ejlwheels

chitown said:


> Shelby tubing and Shelby Cycle mfg are two separate companies.




I guess that means even _more_ players.


Both Oldnut's apparently Schwinn-built Excelsior and unknown's Schwinn-built Hawthorne DeLuxe (above) appear to have unpinched stays.  It would be nice to know the serial numbers of both to get an idea of when the pinched stays began to be a regular Schwinn feature.  According to Patric, Davis began pinching some frames I think in 1917?  Haverford touts their pinch in the 1919 Black Beauty catalog.  I think Westfield starts pinching some frames in the mid 20's and Shelby seems to pinch _their own frames _from the get-go around 1925.  As far as I have seen, Michigan City Excelsior, Snyder, Colson, and Iver J, never pinched.  Among the primary pinchers in the mid 20's and later, I think there are slight differences that help distinguish between Westfield, Shelby and Schwinn frames.  But the unpinched frames, absent other quirks, are pretty murky?


----------



## bricycle

hoofhearted said:


> *(WHISPER-MODE IS ON ......... Vinnie Boombah rolls his 14-pounder down the hardwood avenue ..
> the ball veers left .. the ball veers right .. finally settling on center-lane.  All the gusto Vinnie had in
> his arm when he tossed the projectile .. was draining right outta that ball on it's way to punch out
> the entire group of soldiers.
> 
> After what seemed to be like a short eternity .. the ball gently pushes-aside and knocks out maybe
> five troops ... leaving as many standing to the left and right.)*
> 
> 
> *Not bad for a man who was celebrating his one-hundred and seventeenth birthday at the moment.*
> 
> 
> Could be *this* ad has the same effect .......
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 132471




HUH, never seen that chainwheel B-4.....


----------



## catfish

Lots of great info in this post.


----------



## hoofhearted

For you .. Bri ...............











================================================================================================================


----------



## ejlwheels

bricycle said:


> HUH, never seen that chainwheel B-4.....





Maybe that illustration is foreshortened.  The empty trashcan-shaped spaces seem skinnier?


----------



## fat tire trader

Seeing the Yale, reminds me of my Snell. I have an 1898? Snell. Snell and Yale were manufactured next door to each other and then merged into Consolidated. Does anyone have or have pictures of a pre-consolidated Snell?
Thanks,
Chris


----------



## bricycle

Awesome...thanks guys!!!


----------



## fordmike65

fat tire trader said:


> Seeing the Yale, reminds me of my Snell. I have an 1898? Snell. Snell and Yale were manufactured next door to each other and then merged into Consolidated. Does anyone have or have pictures of a pre-consolidated Snell?
> Thanks,
> Chris




Don't know if this will help any. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/25136461637...AX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_327wt_1121


----------



## hoofhearted

ejlwheels said:


> Maybe that illustration is foreshortened.  The empty trashcan-shaped spaces seem skinnier?




*................   Foreshortened Below  .......................................*

.......................  patric







========================================================================================================================


----------



## fat tire trader

Thanks Mike! I've been watching that bike. It is similar to mine but different. My bike has three piece cranks, while the one on Ebay appears to have 1 piece cranks. I think that the coaster brake on the Ebay bike is a little bit newer than the bike. My bike also has a newer coaster brake on it. I think that my bike is all original except for the pedals, rear hub which I think should be fixed, and the saddle.


----------



## hoofhearted

*fat tire trader ...*there is a fairly-good thread ....*"Question For Pat Or Anyone That Collects Motorcycle-Related Bicycles and Badges"* ...... 

The relationship of Yale and Snell forming the Consolidated Manuf. Co. .. in Toledo .. is covered ... along with the story of the first motorcycle to cross our 
country TOC ..... a California Motorcycle.

.............  patric


=========================================================================================================================


----------



## Balloontyre

*Beauty*

Interesting struts on the handle bars.


----------



## willswares1220

Wow, I'd rather look at the "legs"!     :o


----------



## skindel

*scaps and ex cons*



chitown said:


> I think this is an important document for a couple reasons.
> 
> 1. It shows all many of the badged bikes Schwinn was producing at the time. Sort of a mini Rosetta Stone for teens and twenties bikes. I was unaware they had such big accounts as the Montgomery Wards and the others mentioned.
> 
> 2. Brings up the possibility that some of these bikes were made by scabs and ex-con's.
> 
> 3. Mead Cycle Co was making their own frames as of 1920. There doesn't seem to be much info out there on when they started to outsource frames to other manufacturers but a key time might be when George Lewis left sometime after 1924-5 and teamed up with Huffman to build wheels. This is when Dayton Rolled Metal and others probably bought much of Meads manufacturing equipment. It was mentioned that Shelby bought much of this equipment also.
> 
> 
> If Schwinn was making all these bikes for other badges/jobbers, it makes me wonder what accounts Mead had during the teens and early twenties.



that opens up a touchy subject to  think about---organized labor headed by (democrats) promised the working man (The World) but in reality as time has proven all the best high paying jobs are going over seas (scabs as you call them are not crossing the line but the companies are crossing the boarder after Clinton(democrat) signed nafta and sold out the working man with promises of free health care  and we end up with the president we have now and socialized medicine now promising the working man he's or she's going to be taken care of but the reality will also in time prove different. And it always comes full circle Schwinn put most bike companies out of business by building a "superior" bicycle and socialized labor but Schwinn out of business some 40 yrs later. No other bike company could do it but Walmart did by selling junk built by overseas labor hungary and willing to work. Do you think the guys in Chicago would love to have that factory back and buy steel from the factories in Pitsburg that went out of business But we don't really need jobs cause its all going to be givin to us anyway


----------



## fat tire trader

*Black Beauty Grip*

Probably the only Black Beauty I will ever own is this grip. I've had it for over 20 years. It has a small crack in it that is hard to see in the second photo. I would like to trade it for something on my want list, or maybe a Racycle grip in the same condition?


----------



## ejlwheels

Email sent

what else are you looking for?


----------



## Nickinator

PM sent as well.

Nick.


----------



## Nickinator

skindel said:


> that opens up a touchy subject to  think about---organized labor headed by (democrats) promised the working man (The World) but in reality as time has proven all the best high paying jobs are going over seas (scabs as you call them are not crossing the line but the companies are crossing the boarder after Clinton(democrat) signed nafta and sold out the working man with promises of free health care  and we end up with the president we have now and socialized medicine now promising the working man he's or she's going to be taken care of but the reality will also in time prove different. And it always comes full circle Schwinn put most bike companies out of business by building a "superior" bicycle and socialized labor but Schwinn out of business some 40 yrs later. No other bike company could do it but Walmart did by selling junk built by overseas labor hungary and willing to work. Do you think the guys in Chicago would love to have that factory back and buy steel from the factories in Pitsburg that went out of business But we don't really need jobs cause its all going to be givin to us anyway




Oh hell no we are not going to turn this thread into a political rant- take that to the breakroom please.
Darcie


----------



## skindel

*no harm*



Nickinator said:


> Oh hell no we are not going to turn this thread into a political rant- take that to the breakroom please.
> Darcie




i don't want to get any kind of debate going not even in the break room and it- I hope was far from a rant but i understand it may have come off that way-- i just really like the connection in the article the organizer mentioning the brand name schwinn chose "The World" and all that has followed


----------



## fat tire trader

Hello,
I have decided to put my Black Beauty Grip on Ebay  (eBay item number:201062661279). My Ebay seller ID is fttp. Some fellow cabers have offered me some wonderful things in trade, but like the grip, they are things that I do not need. So I have put the grip on Ebay for $15, free shipping and no reserve. Please see my other auctions as well.
Thanks,
Chris



The grip does have a crack in it which can be seen in the photo below above the left head light.


----------



## Oldnut

*Deluxe motobike*














ejlwheels said:


> To me, the tank on the Davis Dayton looks a lot like the tank on the Zenith?
> Here's some Picts of that flyer bicycle in the add
> I found this ad from a 1917 Monty Wards catalog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bike was previously attributed to Schwinn by some.  I think the fork might be Schwinn made, but the frame in the ad does not have pinched rear stays so I don't know.  It does have the same star flake sprocket as the Zenith.  The spars on this early star flake look a little more delicate than on the ones used by Shelby in the 30's.


----------



## truckd

*1917 Hawthorne Deluxe Flyler*

I have this bike a 1917 Hawthorne De luxe flyer, I had previously believed the bike was from the 20"s
until I stumbled onto this thread WOW! I'm blown away with the info I believe this is the Model Schwinn Built for Montgomery Wards
looking through all the scratches the original color was red and light yellow, I have most everything to restore this
bike except for 28" F&R set of fenders complete with riveted brace, Long spring Troxel Saddle and rear Kick Stand would any one happen to have these parts or 
know where to get them? I feel like I am looking for a Blonde Hair in a Hay Stack


----------



## ejlwheels

Truckd…

does your bike have a badge (badge holes vertical or horizontal)?
Does it have a decipherable serial # on the bottom?

thanks


----------



## truckd

ejlwheels said:


> Truckd…
> 
> does your bike have a badge (badge holes vertical or horizontal)?
> Does it have a decipherable serial # on the bottom?
> 
> thanks




The I.D # is as fallows 156493 the 2nd and 6th #'s could be o and 8 ? the head badge holes are horizontal
the bike was originally Red with Light Yellow spears( Not Cream Color) during Dis-assembly this bike came apart very easy and nothing
was stripped how ever I have to find a way to get the remainder of the axle tensioner bolts out? without screwing anything up.


----------



## truckd

*who made "black beauty bikes???*

Well just wondering if the numbers were able to provide any info on my bike?


----------



## ejlwheels

I would cautiously speculate that your bike is/was a Hawthorne DE LUXE made by Schwinn in about 1921.


----------



## dave the wave

*here's mine*

i have no idea who manuf. it.


----------



## ejlwheels

dave the wave said:


> i have no idea who manuf. it.






I think your frame is Schwinn-made, fork is unclear.
Please share a pic of the serial #...


----------



## chitown

*Beautiful Black Beauty!*



ejlwheels said:


> I think your frame is Schwinn-made, fork is unclear.
> Please share a pic of the serial #...




ditto. 

The built in drop stand ears and volcano joints are pretty unique indicators. That fork is very unique also, though I'm not sure to what manufacturer it falls under. 

Great survivor you've got there Dave! Any chance to get a serial number shot?

Chris


----------



## abe lugo

I got this one recently, i wondered if i could get some help identifying  the year, the number on the bb is not legible

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...tuff-on-it-475-shipped&highlight=Black+beauty


Is is very similar to this one, btw i dont know who bought this one a some time ago on here as well.

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?54449-Black-beauty



Here is another , its a camelback model

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?19583-Black-beauty-rollfast


----------



## filmonger

After reading this thread I would consider the possibility of my hawthorne deluxe to be great western mfg co built bike - great thread - great info 

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?59293-Info-for-Hawthorne-Deluxe


----------



## dave the wave

*here's the serial num.*

not to clear.


----------



## dave the wave

if anyone has a better pic of the downtube decal feel free to post.


----------



## chitown

*Davis built Hawthornes!!! 1918*

Yet another frame builder for teens Montgomery Wards... *DAVIS!!!???!!!* :eek:


----------



## barneyguey

chitown said:


> Who made "Black Beauty" badged bikes?
> 
> I was also wondering about Montgomery Ward "De Luxe" badged?
> 
> Could they be the same maker?
> 
> Chris



Hello, My name is Barry. I have a interesting picture of a 1933 Aerocycle Black Beauty sold by Haverford. When I find it I will upload it.


----------



## barneyguey

Hello, It's Barry. I have been searching high and low for that ad and can't find it so far. If I remember right they had the Aerocycle for sale and advertised a Black Beauty also in the Ad. I have spent many year's researching Schwinn and have many files on my computers and a lot of info in paper form. I 'll keep looking. After seeing the Ad, I bought a Haverford Black Beauty Badge. I didn't think they still sold Schwinn's. I thought this was cool. Here's what my Badge Looked like when I got it. 


As  you can see, they tried to ruin it. I reshaped over a wooden dowel. Here's what it looks like now. If you look up in the left hand corner you will see it.

Barry


----------



## barneyguey

barnyguey said:


> Hello, My name is Barry. I have a interesting picture of a 1933 Aerocycle Black Beauty sold by Haverford. When I find it I will upload it.


----------



## barneyguey

Hey Guys, I found the Ad. I was wrong, It was a Van Camp Ad with the 1934 Black Beauty Aerocycle. My Memory isn't what it used to be. Haverford must have been earlier. Sorry about That. Barry


----------



## Cheezer

I recently picked this Black Beauty up and thought i would add it to this post. This one has a 2 tone blue paint, it looks somewhat amateurish with Lobdell wood rims and ND blackout hubs, my hunch is the rim's, crank set, were added to an earlier frame but that's just my guess? Any help on who made it and ballpark date would be appreciated. It looks like the serial # is 12837?

 

 

 

 

 


Thanks, Dave


----------



## Nickinator

Talewinds said:


> Dooood, wouldn't it be so awesome to find that green "Champion" ^ in nice condition???




Doood, here ya go! @Talewinds ~ nice original paint green Champion! And from the original family to boot.

Here are some pics to add to the thread now it's been lightly cleaned, the painted parts anyway, and some of the nickel.

Some things became visible, the Black Beauty stamp on the pedals, the middle of the decal "Black Beauty" on the down tube and the tank is light blue, and matches the tires, and the green is so bright!

We have the 1919 catalog, and there are a few small differences on this bike than the Champion in that catalog (we know the artists' pic isn't always exact); the color of decal on catalog has a darker black outline; catalog bike has a mudflap, and this one never did, and this one has a Troxel stamped seat not a BB one (like the last one Nick had). Believe it is Excelsior made, and guessing the year to be 1917-18? Any comments welcome 

Darcie/Nick
_*Looking for one or two nice condition BB stamped grips, have a set of BB stamped pedal frames (no blocks) to trade if needed*_


----------



## abe lugo

Nick, that is a beauty, a black beauty.  Hope it is keeper for a while.


----------



## Nickinator

Despite multiple offers and museum interest, it's a keeper. 
Darcie


----------



## dfa242

Stunning.


----------



## dfa242

Simply, stunning.

Oh, sorry - just typing out loud.


----------



## delectans

Nickinator said:


> ~ nice original paint green Champion! And from the original family to boot.




A magnificent machine!  Congrats again, Darcie/Nick!


----------



## oddball

SCHWINN all the way


----------



## barneyguey

Nickinator said:


> Bringing this old thread back to life, got some good info-
> 
> So Nick is building a Black Beauty, has the headbadge from the early 1919ish Schwinn-looking one (see pics), but badge says Haverford Cycle Co, Philadelphia, PA- did Haverford build their own bikes, or did Schwinn build them? And could Mead have supplied any parts, like the coat hanger fender braces?
> 
> Nick is still looking for frame/tank?/fork/fenders for this style BB if anyone has anything they're not attached to, please let us know.
> 
> Darcie
> 
> View attachment 121519View attachment 121520View attachment 121521
> 
> View attachment 121519
> 
> View attachment 121520
> 
> View attachment 121521



Here's another badge I have!


----------



## ejlwheels

I agree, the Nick/Darcie Black Beauty frame Looks like Schwinn to me.
The single rivet fender braces are Schwinn, the fork is Schwinn, the frame-integrated stand stops
are shown in 1917 Schwinn catalog

same braces, frame-integrated stand stops


 

these deluxe fenders appear to have wire braces, practically the same bright green


 


what is the serial number on the bottom?


----------



## bricycle

So the Haverford cycle co. just dissolved into obscurity? no one bought them? Did Haverford build any other bikes besides their Motorcycles?
What time range were Black Beauties? 1917 to ? Surely someone knows... maybe Shirley knows.


----------



## bricycle

bump


----------



## abe lugo

I swear I saw there was a later Black Beauty bicycle, like early 40's It definitely was a ballooner.
I'll search and report back

see here, https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/black-beauty.105401/


----------



## ejlwheels

Haverford was in business from 1896 to 1922-3.
They bought a new building in 1919, but there was 
trouble in bicycle market in 1921-22 that killed them and also Davis Sewing.
The Black Beauty brand seems to emerge in 1917 and go until 1921-22.

Presumably DPHarris/Snyder acquired what remained of Haverford 
because the Black Beauty brand and badges show up again in the 30's
on bikes sold through hardware stores and Island Cycle Supply.


----------



## removed

ejlwheels said:


> Haverford was in business from 1896 to 1922-3.
> They bought a new building in 1919, but there was
> trouble in bicycle market in 1921-22 that killed them and also Davis Sewing.
> The Black Beauty brand seems to emerge in 1917 and go until 1921-22.
> 
> Presumably DPHarris/Snyder acquired what remained of Haverford
> because the Black Beauty brand and badges show up again in the 30's
> on bikes sold through hardware stores and Island Cycle Supply.




Here's what the early Haverford badge looks like.  I'm gonna see how much vinegar bathing will do for it


----------



## removed




----------



## removed

CRIPPLE said:


> View attachment 778574



Should I re nickle it?


----------



## KingOBO

Just for reference, here are 3 different chain rings for the Black Beauty Brand.


----------



## Oldnut

Here’s a 30s later badge


----------



## SKPC

Bringing this great thread back.   _Black Beauty _and _Wards Hawthorne Deluxe _badged bike makers.   Not sure where I found this picture, but it appears to be an early (teens) Schwinn-built Deluxe moto for M.Wards stores.  When I see bikes looking like this I feel they ooze original beginnings, frozen in time that is often faked to look as such.



And also a Black Beauty badged perhaps Schwinn-made frame of similar build below...pic from earlier in this thread. Fork a mystery though.


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## HARPO

@Nickinator  I'm picking up this Black Beauty badged, repainted girls bike in a couple of hours. I'll start a Post when I get it home. I figured it looks to be exactly like your frame.   Sellers photos. Do you have any idea as to when it was made???


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## cbustapeck

Has anyone been able to determine what years women's bicycles were made under the "De Luxe" label? Of the catalogs I have been able to find, the frame designed for women is listed as the "Women's Model" in 1916, 1920, 1921, the "Women's Hawthorne" in 1917, and the "Dolly Varden" in 1922 as well as some later years.

I am aware that the example I am working on may just be badge-engineered, but I would like to compile as much evidence as possible.


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## cbustapeck

Nickinator said:


> Here are some close ups and better pictures of the frame Eric is referring to, I now own this frame,
> View attachment 121925View attachment 121926View attachment 121927View attachment 121928
> 
> View attachment 121925
> 
> View attachment 121926
> 
> View attachment 121927
> 
> View attachment 121928



Did you get any further on this frame? (I hope I didn't miss it somewhere in here.)


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## cbustapeck

I've been trying to dig deeper into the origins of my Hawthorne DeLuxe and stumbled across Montgomery Ward catalog no. 84 (1916). I'm not sure how I missed this specific catalog thus far. I'm including all of the pages because they include parts used on the DeLuxe and might be useful in identification.

Does anyone recognize the fenders used on the DeLuxe Flyer below? The bits that mount them to the frame seem distinctive.

See also: Montomery Ward bicycle catalog 1917, as well as general Montgomery Ward catalogs: no. 85 (1916); 93 (1920); 95 (1921); and 97 (1922). If anyone has access to other volumes and can share them, it would be greatly appreciated.


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## cbustapeck

I stumbled across this on eBay from Montgomery Ward catalog number 88 (1918).


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## Goldenindian

cbustapeck said:


> I stumbled across this on eBay from Montgomery Ward catalog number 88 (1918).
> 
> View attachment 1245600



Looks very Davis to me with that stand..and chainring......cool pic...thanks for sharing.


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## SKPC

Apparently Davis, before being sold in 1923, was one of a few who made Black Beauty-badged bikes for the Haverford jobbers, and possibly also the Deluxe Hawthorne and many other different badges.   Davis purchased Yale and Snell (Consolodated Manufacturing)  in 1916  and was making the Harley Davidson Motocykes in the late teens also. I wonder if they had a big inventory of frames.


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## szathmarig

This Beauty came home with me from Memory Lane.


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## New Mexico Brant

This catalog I found at Hershey solidifies the Davis connection with Haverford in 1917.  Check out the Rex and Gem pedals (both made by Davis Sewing Machine Co.), and the four window stand!


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## New Mexico Brant

From 1922:


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## SKPC

If I may, @hoofhearted, sir Patric's comments regarding Miami's potential link to *Black Beauty *cycles via Haverford:
     This from the Miami _*Flying Merke*_*l* thread. pg26.   
_The following is nothing more than a presentation. It remains within the hopes of this typer ..._
_that All Bicycle-Manufacturing Companies producing the Black-Beauty Bicycle for Haverford
Cycle Co. can come to light and be recognized for their achievements.
Have made a bunch of discoveries ........
     The BB was Schwinn-Built for some Model Year(s). The Schwinn Motorbike of the mid-teens and
twenties had a 1-inch diameter top bar AND a 1-inch diameter Undertank Bar. A Double-Brace
was used to help support BOTH the front and rear fenders.
     The BB was Davis-Built for some Model Year(s). The Davis Motorbike of the mid-teens thru 1922
(Davis had NO 1923 PRODUCTION of bicycles) .. to continue .. had a 1-inch diameter top bar AND
a 7/8" Undertank Bar. A single fender brace was used to help support the front fender WHILE a
double fender brace was used to support the rear fender.
     The BB .. also .. was made by an Unknown Builder .. whose frame-features are remarkably similar
to those Motorbikes of the Miami-Cycle & Mfg. Co. from 1917 thru 1922 .. the final year Miami produced
bicycles. This '17 thru '22 Miami-Built Motorbike has a Drop-Top-Tube of 1-inch diameter -- as do
many motorbikes of the era AND ALSO has an Undertank Bar with an o.d. diameter of *11/16-inch *...
AND .. a double-brace was used to help support BOTH the front and rear fenders.
     Generally speaking .. it may be very-difficult for anyone to find a teen's-era bicycle with less that 1-inch
main tubing.
     While I, personally, believe Miami-Cycle produced the Black-Beauty Bicycle during un-disclosed model years ...
I certainly do not expect everyone and their first-grade teacher to be shouting from the tallest rooftops .. that
very chunk of my belief. To be sure ... much more research is indicated .. before a conclusion can be reached.
_
_........ patric_


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## Archie Sturmer

*Miami* Cycle Mfg. Co. is mentioned with some incredulity in this thread (and perhaps another); but looking for something else, I happened upon another “cool” post from @shoe3 indicating a Haverford—Miami connection; (although _another_ beauty).








						Hudson Beauty cool frame | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

Hudson cool frame and crank assembly.




					thecabe.com
				



Apologize in advance for any duplication.


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## locomotion

Sold - moved to sales | Archive (sold)
					

moved to sales




					thecabe.com


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