# What the heck is a 60s Indian Princess



## PhattCatBicycles (Feb 3, 2012)

I got a email today from a guy that wants to sale me a vintage bicycle.  First of all I'm happy that the word is getting out that I'm looking for vintage bicycles and parts.  But like I already said I got a email today from a guy wanting to sale a 1960's Indian Princess. WTF?  I've never even heard of them and I'm having a hard time finding any information on them. So I was wondering if anyone out there know's anything about this bike.   He says "The seat cover is gone but the original Phillips seat frame is all there. It has the speedometer and light as well"

He's asking $250, seems like a lot to me what but what do I know?


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## scrubbinrims (Feb 3, 2012)

It is a British made 3-speed bicycle by Phillips to sell at Indian Motorcycle stores from 1950-53...your Sturmey Archer hub has a date code.
250 is a decent price to me, but it is a niched bicycle and it's taking me longer than expected to sell my men's "Scout."
Chris


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## ducnut (Feb 3, 2012)

Built by Raleigh Industries. I can't rememeber who/how they were sold in the US. There are a couple on eBay, right now. Even in mint, original condition, that bike would be lucky to be worth $150. The one shown is really rough. I don't think I'd be comfortable giving $20 for it. If you're not already messing with English bikes, leave it be, as it's not really worth anything, even as parts.


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## scrubbinrims (Feb 3, 2012)

ducnut said:


> Built by Raleigh Industries. I can't rememeber who/how they were sold in the US. There are a couple on eBay, right now. Even in mint, original condition, that bike would be lucky to be worth $150. The one shown is really rough. I don't think I'd be comfortable giving $20 for it. If you're not already messing with English bikes, leave it be, as it's not really worth anything, even as parts.




This is an example of why value of a particular bicycle is best determined by those that appreciate what it is or those involved in the actual sale.
If a bicycle is not regarded, then the money (or lack thereof) follows, and opinions from such sources irrevelant.

Chris


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## ducnut (Feb 3, 2012)

scrubbinrims said:


> This is an example of why value of a particular bicycle is best determined by those that appreciate what it is or those involved in the actual sale.
> If a bicycle is not regarded, then the money (or lack thereof) follows, and opinions from such sources irrevelant.
> 
> Chris




Make no mistake, I appreciate what British bikes are, as I have 3. However, that is stupid money, for what it is. Take a look at eBay's completed listings. Completed listings are usually what fair market value is for the item, in a worldwide market; not one's own opinion. You may highly regard the bike as something special, but, don't use your opinion to influence another's purchase decision, when your idea of market value is not the same as what is truth.

I'm not going to bicker about this bike's value, here, out of respect for the OP's thread.


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## scrubbinrims (Feb 3, 2012)

First of all, the thread asked for an opinion, and I am not trying to influence the purchase of the bicycle one way or the other.
I don't need advice on fair market value.. asking vs. actual, but I am awaiting your $20 Indian Princess comps (with dynohub/light) as well as the mint original condition Indian $150 comps.

Chris


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## sam (Feb 3, 2012)

1960's Indian Princess. WTF? I've never even heard of them and I'm having a hard time finding any information on them

As already stated the Indian Motorcycle Companies contracted with the English company Phillips to build some bicycles for it to sell in their stories about 1950-53?
Phillips  was owned by the British Cycle Corp. (BCC).As it turned out the BCC bought Indian so they would have dealerships in the U.S.A. for their brands of British Mororcycles.
Around 1960 the BCC also bought Raleigh Ind. and placed all of their(phillips and others)  bicycle companies under the Management of Raleigh.
This bike shown in the photo does look to be a 60s and less valuable than a 50smodel,but with some nice parts like dyno hub and  alum/rubber pedals.


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## ratfink1962 (Feb 3, 2012)

I have a Scout men's version... and I also believe it was produced between 50-53. 

I dont believe the Princess is a 60's model because from what I learned is that the Indian motorcycle company went bankrupt in 1953. And I guess it would be possible that Phillips kept building the Indian bicycles, but not likely in my mind.


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## 37fleetwood (Feb 3, 2012)

I'd like to add two things, when I bought my 1949 Indian the guy had an Indian Scout in good condition and I offered him on the '49 and told him I didn't want the other at all. that said, some people like them and they are "real" Indians made under license to Hendee. I don't think the Indian Motorcycle guys are interested in these bikes which is going to take a big part of your market away.

the second thing I would like to add is that there is a bunch of Indian bike literature on ebay at this very minute!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bicycle-Lit...868?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cd3466cc
http://www.ebay.com/itm/lot-13-bicy...738?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc19ea282
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Ea...032?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cd3ad010
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Indian-Ligh...766?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588eaee1b6
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raleigh-Ind...539?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a46dc6ab

and a bike and a badge for sale.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Indian...660?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f13208bac
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ind...864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc19eb688


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## ducnut (Feb 3, 2012)

ratfink1962 said:


> I have a Scout men's version... and I also believe it was produced between 50-53.
> 
> I dont believe the Princess is a 60's model because from what I learned is that the Indian motorcycle company went bankrupt in 1953. And I guess it would be possible that Phillips kept building the Indian bicycles, but not likely in my mind.




That bike has the clamp-on, hockey stick chainguard, which is early- to mid-60's. Likewise, the seat and cable housing are from that time frame.

The date stamped on the rear hub will tell the story.


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## ducnut (Feb 3, 2012)

37fleetwood said:


> and a bike and a badge for sale.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Indian...660?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f13208bac




That bike has been listed, a couple times. When zooming in on the rear hub, it appears to say "56" (eBay pics seem to almost never be clear); not "50" as the bike is listed. For 1950, I'm thinking it should have an enclosed chainguard, unless they didn't put them on this nameplate. I'm not sure on that.


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## PhattCatBicycles (Feb 3, 2012)

*Thanks everyone*



PhattCatBicycles said:


> I got a email today from a guy that wants to sale me a vintage bicycle.  First of all I'm happy that the word is getting out that I'm looking for vintage bicycles and parts.  But like I already said I got a email today from a guy wanting to sale a 1960's Indian Princess. WTF?  I've never even heard of them and I'm having a hard time finding any information on them. So I was wondering if anyone out there know's anything about this bike.   He says "The seat cover is gone but the original Phillips seat frame is all there. It has the speedometer and light as well"
> 
> He's asking $250, seems like a lot to me what but what do I know?




You all gave me some great answers and I too thought that the $250 asking price was way over what it was worth.  But it the first time I've ever hear of them so I wanted to asked people who would know.  

Thanks


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## ducnut (Feb 3, 2012)

PhattCatBicycles said:


> You all gave me some great answers and I too thought that the $250 asking price was way over what it was worth.  But it the first time I've ever hear of them so I wanted to asked people who would know.
> 
> Thanks




You can go to Sheldon Brown's site and read a lot of info on Raleigh Industries bikes. You can google for more, using "Raleigh" in your search. They made probably a dozen different brands of bikes. Most differ in just the headbadge and decals. I currently have 5 (was 7) different RI bikes, with three from that era. I'm no expert, but, have picked up a bit of info, in the ~4 years I've been messing with them.


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## sam (Feb 3, 2012)

I dont believe the Princess is a 60's model because from what I learned is that the Indian motorcycle company went bankrupt in 1953. And I guess it would be possible that Phillips kept building the Indian bicycles, but not likely in my mind. 

Indian did go bankrupt in 1953 but the BCC(British Cycle Corpt.) bought them.And yes they did keep on making and selling Scouts and Princess bicycles--(also Rangers as in Mead Ranger another name they owned)

The Indian name really did get very complateded in the 1970s with the selling of a MoPed under that name and then a compamy starting to build the Modern Indian Chief--it went under--but was picked up by investers and it took a team of lawers and finally a trip to England to get the rights to the Indian name.The Indian story is kinda interesting.


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## ducnut (Feb 4, 2012)

sam said:


> Indian did go bankrupt in 1953 but the BCC(British Cycle Corpt.) bought them.And yes they did keep on making and selling Scouts and Princess bicycles--(also Rangers as in Mead Ranger another name they owned).




I have a '63 Phillips Ranger. The interesting thing is that it has a headbadge that I've never seen elsewhere. I bought it from the original owner.


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## sam (Feb 4, 2012)

I have a frame(with badge) for a phillips Ranger.
Maybe not a high value bicycle but a bit uncommon.If in good shape ,a keeper for sure.


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## titus (Feb 4, 2012)

*yup they are out there*



PhattCatBicycles said:


> I got a email today from a guy that wants to sale me a vintage bicycle.  First of all I'm happy that the word is getting out that I'm looking for vintage bicycles and parts.  But like I already said I got a email today from a guy wanting to sale a 1960's Indian Princess. WTF?  I've never even heard of them and I'm having a hard time finding any information on them. So I was wondering if anyone out there know's anything about this bike.   He says "The seat cover is gone but the original Phillips seat frame is all there. It has the speedometer and light as well"
> 
> He's asking $250, seems like a lot to me what but what do I know?




I have seen three of them. only the women's version.  it depends on weather you want to sell it or not but it could be worth $30 in parts for raleigh type bikes or hawthornes (nottingham vs birmingham)  or $150 to a college kid wanting a trusty reliable ride if made to run well.  honestly the only thing that gives it value is the rarity of the badge and if I remember correctly I saw one sell for $50.  definatly post american indian and looks to be past the norton ownership of indian also but the name has changed hands countless times and continents almost as much.

be nice and try not to insult the seller, sometimes people hear a name and insist that because it's rare it's valuable.  
exe: geometro cars are rare not because they were limited production but because there arn't many running today 
(althought if any one has a running one I am interested)


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## kunzog (Feb 4, 2012)

The Indian Motorcycle Company went out of business in 1953. Period.  None of this other stuff - Italian motorcycles, Floyd Clymer English Imports and other attempts by US companies to revive Indian after 1953 is in any way related to the original Indian Motorcycle Company.
Those Indian bicycles were imported from England by Indian and were probably sold by motorcycle dealers until 1954-55 as there were a lot in dealers inventory.
Here is one of mine, a 1950 model with a 1950 Cycle Master Motor Wheel.


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## 37fleetwood (Feb 4, 2012)

kunzog said:


> The Indian Motorcycle Company went out of business in 1953. Period.  None of this other stuff - Italian motorcycles, Floyd Clymer English Imports and other attempts by US companies to revive Indian after 1953 is in any way related to the original Indian Motorcycle Company.
> Those Indian bicycles were imported from England by Indian and were probably sold by motorcycle dealers until 1954-55 as there were a lot in dealers inventory.
> Here is one of mine, a 1950 model with a 1950 Cycle Master Motor Wheel.



so... what about the Davis made, and Columbia made and Huffman made Indian bikes? what of the super desirable German made Indians? they really don't have much in common with the motorcycles. some of these companies changed ownership and hands so many times it was hard to keep track of.


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## kunzog (Feb 4, 2012)

I was refering to the most recent motorcycles that claim to be Indians. All those bicycles were made during the time that Indian was in operation so they do have a connection.


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## sam (Feb 4, 2012)

The Indian Motorcycle Company went out of business in 1953. Period. None of this other stuff 

I never said the British Cycle Corp. contunued to build the american Indian motorcycle.I said they bought the name and also they wanted the system of Indian dealerships in the US to sell their brands of British motorcycles.
This is not uncommon for a company to buy product names--I have an american built sterling bicycle that was not built by sterling or westfield---but cloumbia did threaten a sute over the name(they owned)---so it was dropped .Lite beer is spelled that way because "LIGHT BEER" is a brand name.

When the new Indians were built the owners did have to buy back the name before they could call themself INDIAN.
I was only talking about who owned the brand name Indian after 1953.And as the owner(the BCC) also built bicycles they were able to make scouts and princess.


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