# Mercury Pacemaker Frame Question



## kreika (Jan 2, 2017)

Looking for some help figuring out frame differences   In the 1939-41 Mercury Pacemaker line. I have quite a few, but one frame stands out different than the rest. Five of my frames have the black frame style, clamp over the seat post tube but the red frame has the clamp built into the frame. Any ideas why the difference? Early production or late? Not a Mercury, but a Western Flyer/Hiawatha store branded version of the bike? 
Thank you,
Chris


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## Jarod24 (Jan 2, 2017)

kreika said:


> Looking for some help figuring out frame differences   In the 1939-41 Mercury Pacemaker line. I have quite a few, but one frame stands out different than the rest. Five of my frames have the black frame style, clamp over the seat post tube but the red frame has the clamp built into the frame. Any ideas why the difference? Early production or late? Not a Mercury, but a Western Flyer/Hiawatha store branded version of the bike?
> Thank you,
> Chris
> 
> ...





5!!!!!!!


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## kreika (Jan 2, 2017)

Oops actually 6 frames but 2 are just frames not complete bikes.


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## fordmike65 (Jan 2, 2017)

kreika said:


> Oops actually 6 frames but 2 are just frames not complete bikes.



Are any in original condition?


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## kreika (Jan 2, 2017)

No, restored or culmination of the best parts I could find. Finding an original....bucket list! Maybe someday.


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## Boris (Jan 2, 2017)

No help here, but let's see the Colson!


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## kreika (Jan 2, 2017)

fordmike65 said:


> Are any in original condition?





fordmike65 said:


> Are any in original condition?



I was poking around and saw the beautiful Maroon girls you have. So nice!!!! Jealous


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## kreika (Jan 2, 2017)

Dave Marko said:


> No help here, but let's see the Colson!



It's stuck in the corner. I'll bust it out and get some pics. Somebody had money in '41. They bought the speedo, personalized name plate on top tube and coaster brake activated tail light.


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## TR6SC (Jan 2, 2017)

All I want is a frame!


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## Jarod24 (Jan 2, 2017)

kreika said:


> Oops actually 6 frames but 2 are just frames not complete bikes.




Anyways back to your original question I'm going to say the red one is later and the other style is earlier. If you look at other Murray built bikes around that time frame the straight down tube bikes have that same style as the black bike and those bikes were around 37-40 from what I've heard and the later 40-42 bent seat tube murrays have the red bike style. That's just my thoughts


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## Freqman1 (Jan 3, 2017)

Here is mine which I'm almost certain is a '41. V/r Shawn


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## kreika (Jan 3, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> Here is mine which I'm almost certain is a '41. V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 404328



Thanks for posting the pics of inside the tank. That lightbar is the last part I need and know I'll never find. I bought a lit girls in hopes it might work. Nope totally angled wrong. I'm gonna have to get some pics up soon of my black and chrome beauty. I'd definately say yours is a '41. Lit rack and floating hub '41 only,I do believe. You sir have all the dream bikes. I tip my hat to you.


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## Jarod24 (Jan 3, 2017)

I guess I'm wrong haha


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## kreika (Jan 3, 2017)

I'm thinking you may be right but not the Pacemaker style but rather the pod style frame with the tank that goes past the seat tube???


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Jan 4, 2017)

Here is a pic of mine, original painted wheels with a rear morrow hub, but a non lit tank!


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## rustjunkie (Jan 4, 2017)

From what I've seen the frames that take shims are earlier and the ones that don't are later. This would correspond with the other Murray built models. Looks like the change happened for the 1940 model year? Seems the fenders were changed ~the same time?
@fordmike65 : didn't you start a thread a while back on this?


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## rustjunkie (Jan 4, 2017)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> Here is a pic of mine, original painted wheels with a rear morrow hub, but a non lit tank!
> View attachment 404695




For the sake of reference, is this bike all orig or assembled from parts?


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Jan 4, 2017)

The bike was missing a tank and shroud when I bought it. Since I had an original tank in black and whitebthat I had for many years, when I saw it I had to have it! So I bought the Merc. So yes the bike is all original except for the tank and shroud. But they are not repops. The bike was found in a junkyard and a guy saved it that I bought it from!


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Jan 4, 2017)

My rear morrow hub says J-4 on it if it helps dating it!


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## rustjunkie (Jan 4, 2017)

@Freqman1 & @THEGOLDENGREEK :
Maybe you could post your serial #'s ?


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## kreika (Jan 4, 2017)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> Here is a pic of mine, original painted wheels with a rear morrow hub, but a non lit tank!
> View attachment 404695



Black on white haven't seen that before. Nice ride!!!


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## kreika (Jan 4, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> From what I've seen the frames that take shims are earlier and the ones that don't are later. This would correspond with the other Murray built models. Looks like the change happened for the 1940 model year? Seems the fenders were changed ~the same time?
> @fordmike65 : didn't you start a thread a while back on this?



Hi. I'm new sorry didn't see this was already a topic. Freqman said his is a '41 and it has the additional clamp style. I was thinking maybe the opposite. The early ones are like my red one. It looks a little weak and they may have snapped if the seat post was to high. Hence they added that extra support???


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## kreika (Jan 4, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> @Freqman1 & @THEGOLDENGREEK :
> Maybe you could post your serial #'s ?



I was totally thinking the same thing. If we could pool together as many numbers as possible maybe we could start to figure how the numbers work???


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## kreika (Jan 4, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> For the sake of reference, is this bike all orig or assembled from parts?



My black and chrome is the best parts I could put together. The red is a restored western flyer branded model I bought on eBay from toyman back in the mid 90's.


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Jan 4, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> @Freqman1 & @THEGOLDENGREEK :
> Maybe you could post your serial #'s ?



I will post my serial number


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## Freqman1 (Jan 4, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> @Freqman1 & @THEGOLDENGREEK :
> Maybe you could post your serial #'s ?




I'll see if I can get mine out tonight and post. V/r Shawn

Here ya go!

    ME
 13856


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## rustjunkie (Jan 4, 2017)

kreika said:


> Hi. I'm new sorry didn't see this was already a topic. Freqman said his is a '41 and it has the additional clamp style. I was thinking maybe the opposite. The early ones are like my red one. It looks a little weak and they may have snapped if the seat post was to high. Hence they added that extra support???




My reasoning was this: the 1936-1940 Murray-built frames I've had and noted used the shim frame, and the 1939 Pacemaker ad shows shim frame. 
Seems 1941 brought the "electroforged" seat-mast/clamp area using the 5/8" post w/o shims.
However, thinking back now, I had a 1941 boys Murray Elgin that used shims, and I think the 1941 Murray-built Miss America uses shims...? The Sears catalog shows both types of frames for 1941.
Now I'm thinking that both types of frames were made at the same time.
Another thing I've noticed from original Pacemaker-type bikes is that the fender differences seem to be consistent with frame style. Anyone else seen this?


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## kreika (Jan 4, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> My reasoning was this: the 1936-1940 Murray-built frames I've had and noted used the shim frame, and the 1939 Pacemaker ad shows shim frame.
> Seems 1941 brought the "electroforged" seat-mast/clamp area using the 5/8" post w/o shims.
> However, thinking back now, I had a 1941 boys Murray Elgin that used shims, and I think the 1941 Murray-built Miss America uses shims...? The Sears catalog shows both types of frames for 1941.
> Now I'm thinking that both types of frames were made at the same time.
> Another thing I've noticed from original Pacemaker-type bikes is that the fender differences seem to be consistent with frame style. Anyone else seen this?



What  should I look for in these fender differences? I'm curious now. When I get home I'll have to look at the ones mounted and my extras. Maybe the non clamp style is a lower end frame model?


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## kreika (Jan 4, 2017)

Here's 2 serials from my boys. ME 17786 and  24188. My extra girls frame was hard to read a little crusty and the brass from the welds is near the numbers it was four digits ME 1312 
I'll dig the others out this weekend and post.


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## kreika (Jan 4, 2017)

I'm curious what the ME stands for. Shortened the word ME rcury or M urray and the E...?


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## fordmike65 (Jan 5, 2017)

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/noted-differences-in-mercury-pacemaker-run-39-41.63271/


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## fordmike65 (Jan 5, 2017)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> View attachment 404742
> My rear morrow hub says J-4 on it if it helps dating it!



http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/serial-number-and-date-code-information.71542/#post-441223

Morrow Coaster Brake Hub:

Letter and number note the year and quarter of production. 
Example: I 3 = produced 1939 July-September

A - 1931
B - 1932
C - 1933
D - 1934
E - 1935
F - 1936
G - 1937
H - 1938
I - 1939 
J - 1940
K - 1941
L - 1942
M - 1943
N - 1944
O - 1945
P - 1946
Q - 1947
R - 1948
S - 1949
T - 1950


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## kreika (Jan 5, 2017)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> View attachment 404742
> My rear morrow hub says J-4 on it if it helps dating it!



So according to Mr Mikes dating list yours is a late 1940. Curious now what your serial number run is in relation to that date. Sweet bike!!!


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## kreika (Jan 5, 2017)

fordmike65 said:


> http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/noted-differences-in-mercury-pacemaker-run-39-41.63271/



Thank you for the link to your older discussion.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 5, 2017)

kreika said:


> So according to Mr Mikes dating list yours is a late 1940. Curious now what your serial number run is in relation to that date. Sweet bike!!!




I suppose the 4-quarter Morrow could make the @THEGOLDENGREEK bike a 1941 model?


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Jan 5, 2017)

Its snow out here and havnt time to get the mercs out to check the serial numbers. Ill post them up very soon!


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## redline1968 (Jan 5, 2017)

What about maroon color?


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## kreika (Jan 6, 2017)

rustjunkie said:


> My reasoning was this: the 1936-1940 Murray-built frames I've had and noted used the shim frame, and the 1939 Pacemaker ad shows shim frame.
> Seems 1941 brought the "electroforged" seat-mast/clamp area using the 5/8" post w/o shims.
> However, thinking back now, I had a 1941 boys Murray Elgin that used shims, and I think the 1941 Murray-built Miss America uses shims...? The Sears catalog shows both types of frames for 1941.
> Now I'm thinking that both types of frames were made at the same time.
> Another thing I've noticed from original Pacemaker-type bikes is that the fender differences seem to be consistent with frame style. Anyone else seen this?



I will confirm 100% your correct on that frame to fender difference statement. I have two bikes that don't have the seat post clamp over the tube style and they have the more peaked at the end fenders. The also have the the three cut outs in the chainring. The racks are also different at the mounting point,much narrower from the lack of the seat post clamp. The question now is why? Are they lower end models? Ones meant for off brands like Gambles and Western Auto and such? Different manufacturer? I thought they were all made by Murray???


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## redline1968 (Jan 6, 2017)

I quest maroon doesn't count


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## fordmike65 (Jan 6, 2017)

redline1968 said:


> I quest maroon doesn't count



I think these bikes look best in maroon. I believe Chris (@scrubbinrims ) has a beautiful men's Pacemaker in that color scheme.


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## redline1968 (Jan 6, 2017)

Yes but no vote on this site


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## kreika (Jan 6, 2017)

redline1968 said:


> What about maroon color?



Hi. Not sure what your referring to as far as maroon color. My serial number?


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## kreika (Jan 6, 2017)

fordmike65 said:


> I think these bikes look best in maroon. I believe Chris (@scrubbinrims ) has a beautiful men's Pacemaker in that color scheme.



A very cool collector sold me a chrome shroud,chain guard,rack and aluminum fenders many years ago. He also had a beautiful maroon lit tank model. Mm mm good. Hell you got the super nice girls don't you?


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## fordmike65 (Jan 6, 2017)

kreika said:


> Looking for some help figuring out frame differences   In the 1939-41 Mercury Pacemaker line. I have quite a few, but one frame stands out different than the rest. Five of my frames have the black frame style, clamp over the seat post tube but the red frame has the clamp built into the frame. Any ideas why the difference? Early production or late? Not a Mercury, but a Western Flyer/Hiawatha store branded version of the bike?
> Thank you,
> Chris






redline1968 said:


> I quest maroon doesn't count






redline1968 said:


> Yes but no vote on this site






kreika said:


> Hi. Not sure what your referring to as far as maroon color. My serial number?




I believe "kreika" is using his Red & Black Pacemakers as reference to frame differences, not that there aren't other colors the Pacemakers were offered in


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## Freqman1 (Jan 6, 2017)

The bikes with the aluminum fenders and chrome tank/rack/guard were only offered in maroon or black. You are right the bikes with the painted pieces were offered in a number of color combinations. V/r Shawn


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## redline1968 (Jan 6, 2017)

Lit tank with horn


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## kreika (Jan 6, 2017)

redline1968 said:


> View attachment 405690 View attachment 405689 Lit tank with horn



Wow!!!! Me likey!!!!!A lot.


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## redline1968 (Jan 6, 2017)

Thanks maroon is awesome color


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## kreika (Jan 6, 2017)

redline1968 said:


> Thanks maroon is awesome color



I agree 100%


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## Nashman (Jan 6, 2017)

Nice ride...Send heat...it's like Siberia here!


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## kreika (Jan 6, 2017)

Nashman said:


> Nice ride...Send heat...it's like Siberia here![/QUOTE
> Stationary bike activated. Pedal like heck to get warm!!!!


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## kreika (Jan 6, 2017)

Check npence's restored blue Murray with this light on it. I'm thinking ultra rare???  Since we're discussing the strange nuances of these bikes. 
Yes this is a Mercury fender.


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## kreika (Jan 7, 2017)

Back to Mercurys sorry we should have taken that to the man cave thread


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## kreika (Jan 18, 2017)

Always wanted to see one branded this way.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 18, 2017)

kreika said:


> Always wanted to see one branded this way. View attachment 411607




I believe this is my favorite color combo on one of these. V/r Shawn


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## kreika (Jan 18, 2017)

I agree. Was doing a general search on google saw this old Cabe post. What was comical was how many times that restored one of the same colors has exchanged hands.


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## fordmike65 (Jan 18, 2017)

That original one does look pretty good. Some tend to resemble a shade of baby poop


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## kreika (Jan 18, 2017)

So glad I'm done with that. 4x da diapers. Ugh. Oops off topic again sorry. Dang you Mike I'm to easily distracted.


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## None (Jan 18, 2017)

You already know, @kreika, I'm living that primered life. Haha I would like to know what colors came in the my year, so I can paint accordingly. Wonder if that shroud has any original paint on it.


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## kreika (Jan 18, 2017)

Hey Dez there's nothin wrong with primer....it's a transition thing. Funny, I think I've had 3 red white Merc's like your shroud. Must have been popular back in 39-41. I'll look at my adds tomorrow  and see if I can find color combo info. I like your add. Cool frosty green color. Well back to work in the rain. Weeeeee so much fun.


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## None (Jan 19, 2017)

@kreika thank you! Much appreciated!


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## kreika (Jan 19, 2017)

1940 Catalog Color schemes:
Top picture says Red or Black enamel with white trim. Second picture says Mens: Teal Blue with light Blue trim also Red and White trim. Ladies: Canary Yellow and Maroon baked enamel with White trim.Third says Men's:Red or Black and White trim. Ladies: Green or Blue with White trim. Fourth picture says Ladies: Light Green or Maroon with White trim. Men's: Dark Green or Maroon with White trim. I really like the fourth page's paint jobs kinda reverse paint scheme from the others. I've never seen a Dark Green Mercury before. Anybody have a pic of one for reference?


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## fordmike65 (Jan 19, 2017)

I believe mine was originally the red/white scheme. There are still bits of red in the BB.


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## fordmike65 (Jan 19, 2017)

And a very similar scheme as George's beautiful lady. Aluminum fender light & all


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## kreika (Jan 19, 2017)

That girls is freakin' siiiiick!!! Hey George sell it to me???


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## kreika (Jan 19, 2017)

fordmike65 said:


> I believe mine was originally the red/white scheme. There are still bits of red in the BB.



Any plans to paint?


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## fordmike65 (Jan 19, 2017)

kreika said:


> Any plans to paint?



Someday...unless I find an OG paint bike before then.


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## THEGOLDENGREEK (Jan 19, 2017)

Been busy and I still haven't gotten my serial numbers posted up but I will this Sunday for sure on both of my Mercs!


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## Freqman1 (Jan 19, 2017)

Someday...I'm with you Mike I've owned this car for 34 years--primed it in 1994! V/r Shawn


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## kreika (Jan 19, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> Someday...I'm with you Mike I've owned this car for 34 years--primed it in 1994! V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 412006



That's no car....it's an el camino! Nice SS man!


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## kreika (Jan 19, 2017)

Since we're on the topic of prime and need paint. My dump run mobile.1972 C-10...The Beast.


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## kreika (Jan 19, 2017)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> Been busy and I still haven't gotten my serial numbers posted up but I will this Sunday for sure on both of my Mercs!
> View attachment 412005



Your girls Mercury.... impressive, most impressive.


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## None (Jan 19, 2017)

THEGOLDENGREEK said:


> Been busy and I still haven't gotten my serial numbers posted up but I will this Sunday for sure on both of my Mercs!
> View attachment 412005



:eek: Holy smokes


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## kreika (Jan 19, 2017)

Desireé said:


> :eek: Holy smokes



Such a nice pair.


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## None (Jan 19, 2017)

kreika said:


> Such a nice pair.



I've gotta get mine going! I'm getting so antsy!!


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## Freqman1 (Jan 19, 2017)

Need to get the serials with descriptions compiled so maybe we can start getting an idea of what's going on here


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## None (Jan 19, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> Need to get the serials with descriptions compiled so maybe we can start getting an idea of what's going on here




YES! If anyone can figure this thing out, it's definitely you, @kreika and @fordmike65!


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## kreika (Mar 5, 2017)

Courtesy Mr.Tinkerer


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## kreika (Mar 10, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> I'll see if I can get mine out tonight and post. V/r Shawn
> 
> Here ya go!
> 
> ...




1940


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## Freqman1 (Mar 11, 2017)

kreika said:


> 1940




I'll agree the serial matches '40 but were the aluminum fenders/chrome tank, guard, and rack offered in '40? I'm thinking this to be a '41 model. Thoughts? V/r Shawn


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## kreika (Mar 11, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> I'll agree the serial matches '40 but were the aluminum fenders/chrome tank, guard, and rack offered in '40? I'm thinking this to be a '41 model. Thoughts? V/r Shawn




I believe they were offered 1939-1941 maybe early 42?


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## kreika (Mar 11, 2017)

Freqman1 said:


> I'll agree the serial matches '40 but were the aluminum fenders/chrome tank, guard, and rack offered in '40? I'm thinking this to be a '41 model. Thoughts? V/r Shawn




I believe the lit rack was a 41 only option but I could be wrong.


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## robert bell (Aug 6, 2017)

are these fenders correct for a 39 ladies?


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## kreika (Aug 6, 2017)

robert bell said:


> are these fenders correct for a 39 ladies?View attachment 656442 View attachment 656443 View attachment 656444




They look correct from the pics. The back of each fender should have a nice smooth curve like the rest of the fender with just the center rib raised. The other style is almost like an Elgin twin bar fender kinda pinched and raised at the ends.


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## kreika (Aug 6, 2017)

robert bell said:


> are these fenders correct for a 39 ladies?View attachment 656442 View attachment 656443 View attachment 656444




And nice bike!


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## kreika (Aug 7, 2017)

Decal pics


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## robert bell (Aug 7, 2017)

wow! i'm gonna start working on the mercury ones! nice clear pic!


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## Stanley (Aug 16, 2017)

Hi, any info on these?
Thanks,
Stan

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## fordmike65 (Aug 16, 2017)

kreika said:


> Decal pics
> View attachment 657057 View attachment 657058 View attachment 657059



Any pics of a Hiawatha? Maybe a script similar to Shelby built Arrows?


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## kreika (Aug 16, 2017)

fordmike65 said:


> Any pics of a Hiawatha? Maybe a script similar to Shelby built Arrows?
> View attachment 661332




I wish!!! Never seen one in person. I believe they used the same script on all branded models.


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## fordmike65 (Dec 13, 2019)

kreika said:


> I wish!!! Never seen one in person. I believe they used the same script on all branded models.



Similar...


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## kreika (Dec 13, 2019)

fordmike65 said:


> Similar...
> View attachment 1109935




woo wee nice one Mike!!!!


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