# Westfield Mfg. Co. "Pope" headbadged bike...any help narrowing age,originality?



## decath6431 (Jan 26, 2012)

This is the first bike I've owned that is (I believe) pre-war, so bare with me.  I grabbed this from a guy on CL, and have been trying to narrow down the age the last two days as much as possible.  The headbadge says "Westfield Mfg. Co." and then a script "Pope" in the middle.  After looking at it closer it looks like this may not in fact even be the original headbadge, as it looks like there are two rivet holes partially covered by the badge, which is screwed in with the holes being non-symmetrical (is this a re-badged Columbia?) I do believe the majority of the bike is original, although I'm not sure about the wheels either.  I was somewhat under the impression that the majority of bikes pre 1933 were 28", and these are 26".  I think that it was made sometime between 1917 and 33 based on info on Mr. Columbia's site that outlines when Pope closed and bikes were produced under the Westfield Mfg. Co. name.  I'm hoping someone might know a model name (if there was one) and maybe verify my theory on the age or even help to narrow it down even further.  I've tried to take pics of what I think are the most relevant revealing components.  As an aside, I really think this is a gorgeous bike with nice rich blue original paint.  The saddle seems to be original, as do the grips.  The brake arm says "Morrow", and I think these are period correct.  I really like the fender pin striping also and the holes that can be used to create a skirt guard.  Skip tooth chain and what I believe is referred to as a sidestep crank.  Was also wondering if anyone knows what may have gone on the front fender.  Thanks in advance for looking and any information provided.


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## catfish (Jan 26, 2012)

I'd say it's a 1934/35/36 Westfield Built bicycle. Columbia didn't make bikes. The bikes were made by Pope MFG, and than Westfield MFG. Columbia was just their top of the line bike. This is a nice find. if you want to sell it, let me know.    Catfish


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## rustyspoke66 (Jan 26, 2012)

The date code on the rear hub should help get you close.


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## MrColumbia (Jan 27, 2012)

I think it is 1934, the first year for balloon tire bikes at Westfield Mfg. I don't have a "Pope" line catalog but the "Columbia" catalog shows a model exactly like this one with the old style ladies chainguard that had been used on the 28" ladies bikes for years. In 1935 the ladies bikes all recieved the same Columbia chainguard as the men's bikes. Much of this bike is carry overs from the 28" bikes of the previous years. That is an interesting badge, I have no reason to believe it is anything but original to this bike but I have not seen another one quite like it. The bike frame may have be intended for a different line where the holes are top and bottom (many were) and re-slated for this (new badge ?).


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## decath6431 (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far.  I really appreciate it.  The badge does seem to have the same age and patina as the rest of the bike, so I think it's original to it also.  Been trying to find a comparable one and google searches with "Westfield" and "Pope" together invariably end up showing old Columbia badges.  I'm still really glad to own it, although was hoping it might have been a bit older.  I'm trying to clean the surface rust off the rear hub enough to use the date code.  Thanks again.


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## decath6431 (Jan 27, 2012)

Looks like the hub is stamped D4, so I guess April of 34.  Alas, I've been in the wrong forum...thanks again for the help.


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## ericbaker (Jan 27, 2012)

The morroe date codes are a little different. 

D - 1934
4 - 4th quarter of the year. 

So its an late '34 or early '35 model.


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## catfish (Jan 27, 2012)

MrColumbia said:


> I think it is 1934, the first year for balloon tire bikes at Westfield Mfg. I don't have a "Pope" line catalog but the "Columbia" catalog shows a model exactly like this one with the old style ladies chainguard that had been used on the 28" ladies bikes for years. In 1935 the ladies bikes all recieved the same Columbia chainguard as the men's bikes. Much of this bike is carry overs from the 28" bikes of the previous years. That is an interesting badge, I have no reason to believe it is anything but original to this bike but I have not seen another one quite like it. The bike frame may have be intended for a different line where the holes are top and bottom (many were) and re-slated for this (new badge ?).




The badge is original. I have three or four of them. And yes the bike looks all original.


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## RMS37 (Jan 27, 2012)

I believe the bike is close to the hub’s date code but it is easy to actually date the frame’s production from the serial number stamped into the bottom of the crank hanger. 

  Considering the tell-tale badge holes behind the Pope badge and the fact that there are pressure marks in the paint around them, I believe the bike originally had a different badge. When it was changed and why is obviously open to speculation. If the bike was in the hands of a collector at an earlier time the badge may have been added by that person in an attempt to tie the bike back to the parent company.


  Another point is that the hole in the front fender in front of the head tube is actually the fender mounting hole and should be located under the fork crown.


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## catfish (Jan 27, 2012)

Extra badge holes are not un common in this bikes. Westfield had over 1000 different names they used. This badge is right for the time period. Might have had a different badge at the build, but could have been changed before it left the factory.  




RMS37 said:


> I believe the bike is close to the hub’s date code but it is easy to actually date the frame’s production from the serial number stamped into the bottom of the crank hanger.
> 
> Considering the tell-tale badge holes behind the Pope badge and the fact that there are pressure marks in the paint around them, I believe the bike originally had a different badge. When it was changed and why is obviously open to speculation. If the bike was in the hands of a collector at an earlier time the badge may have been added by that person in an attempt to tie the bike back to the parent company.
> 
> ...


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## decath6431 (Jan 27, 2012)

The serial #is M111104...


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## BlueTarp (Jan 27, 2012)

I agree that re-badging at the factory is certainly one possibility. The badge itself looks like it has been painted over at some time and appears to be in something of a lesser condition than the rest of the bike. Another test would be to unscrew the badge and closely examine the condition of the paint around the holes for the Pope badge.


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## BlueTarp (Jan 27, 2012)

"M" can signify more than one year but it is the code for 1934 which is a best fit year for this bike.


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## decath6431 (Jan 27, 2012)

Here are the pics of the under side of the badge, the headtube with the badge removed and the bottom bracket shell with the serial # (sorry its dark).  I thought the paint was original and still do but it does seem like there is some red poking through down near where the prior owner had cleared to see the # and around it...unless its rust.  Badge looks like it was never painted to me, not magnetic assuming probably brass?  Or maybe Nickel?














Thanks again for all of the help...


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## BlueTarp (Jan 27, 2012)

I don't doubt that the bicycle is still in its original paint, I believe the red paint at the serial number is factory primer. 

It is always hard to tell from photos what is original and what is not so I don't have anything to add from viewing the second set of badge holes. 

One thing regarding the badge though is that I believe it is a brass badge and typically paint decoration or enameling was only applied to the front of brass badges. The silver paint on the back side again leads me to believe the badge was painted over at some point but that doesn’t prove one way or another if the badge was originally applied at the factory or later by an owner.


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## fordsnake (Jan 27, 2012)

I noticed the bottom badge hole on the head tube has a screw broken off? It's hard to imagine the factory would allow that to go out? The time it took to drill two new holes they could've easily removed the broken screw.


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## rustyspoke66 (Jan 27, 2012)

Nice catch on the badge screws. As for the rear hub doesn't "D" =33? A = 30........ I would also imagine a bike made in 34 could easily have a hub built in the 4th quarter of 33? Otherwise wouldn't I would think a bike with a date code hub of the 4th quarter of 34 would most likely be a 35 model year bike. Or did they not do that back then?


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## walter branche (Jan 27, 2012)

*the screw showing*

also when you look at the screw on the right you can see how the screwdriver has misaligned the groove , and to me that shows removal a few times, or at least a screw replacement at some time /..


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## fordsnake (Jan 27, 2012)

After a little research, the badge is pre 1933! Colonel Pope moved his bicycling manufacturing to Westfield around 1904 and it was re-named Pope Mfg. Co.  Eleven years later, the company name changed to Westfield Mfg.Co. (which is displayed on your badge). In 1933, the company was purchased by the Torrington Company and the name was slightly changed to The Westfield Mfg. Co. If the bike is indeed a 1934-35, the badge would include the definite article "The" in front of Westfield Mfg.Co.


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## catfish (Jan 27, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> After a little research, the badge is pre 1933! Colonel Pope moved his bicycling manufacturing to Westfield around 1904 and it was re-named Pope Mfg. Co.  Eleven years later, the company name changed to Westfield Mfg.Co. (which is displayed on your badge). In 1933, the company was purchased by the Torrington Company and the name was slightly changed to The Westfield Mfg. Co. If the bike is indeed a 1934-35, the badge would include the definite article "The" in front of Westfield Mfg.Co.





I have over 300 Westfield badges. None of them have "The" in front of Westfield.


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## RMS37 (Jan 27, 2012)

For Morrow hubs A=1931 not 1930, so the hub was manufactured during the last quarter of 1934. The M in the serial number is also for 1934, and taken sequentially, the bike's serial number suggest the crank hanger was stamped about mid year. Like Automobiles, bicycles were often considered the next years model before the new calendar year arrived but a bicycle like this probably didn't change substantially from 34 to 35. Based on the hub and the frame being from 1934 that is how I would date the bike.


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## decath6431 (Jan 28, 2012)

Thanks to everyone who has commented and shared their knowledge and opinions.  I really appreciate it especially considering this is technically in the wrong forum based on age (honest mistake).


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## dfa242 (Jan 28, 2012)

_"I have over 300 Westfield badges..."_

Yikes Catfish - you do have a problem!!


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## fordsnake (Jan 28, 2012)

> I have over 300 Westfield badges. None of them have "The" in front of Westfield – _Catfish_




Catfish, you'd think out of the three hundred badges you'd have a few with "The" in front of Westfield?  I've attached some images of the many badges post 1933 that read The Westfield Mfg.Co.


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## catfish (Jan 28, 2012)

dfa242 said:


> _"I have over 300 Westfield badges..."_
> 
> Yikes Catfish - you do have a problem!!




That's just my Westfield stuff. I have close to 3000 badges........ It's beyond a problem.


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## catfish (Jan 28, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> Catfish, you'd think out of the three hundred badges you'd have a few with "The" in front of Westfield?  I've attached some images of the many badges post 1933 that read The Westfield Mfg.Co.




These are all from the 50s. apart for the Stearling.


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## catfish (Jan 28, 2012)

fordsnake said:


> Catfish, you'd think out of the three hundred badges you'd have a few with "The" in front of Westfield?  I've attached some images of the many badges post 1933 that read The Westfield Mfg.Co.




I guess I was wrong... I do have some. But I also have a lot that don't say  "The".

View attachment 39632View attachment 39633View attachment 39634View attachment 39635View attachment 39636View attachment 39637View attachment 39632View attachment 39633View attachment 39634View attachment 39635View attachment 39636View attachment 39637


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## Luckykat32 (Jan 28, 2012)

Man...lost to a local again!  Nice bike...I was talking to this guy about shipping & told him I'll take it, then he said he'll figure it out Monday when he got back from vacation...he finally responded to my 3rd email on Tuesday & told me that it was sold...Local wins again!

If you ever want to sell it, my girlfriend loves that bike.


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## decath6431 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Saddle*

I am not sure if this saddle is leather.  It feels more like a vinyl to me...were saddles from this time always leather or is it possible it's vinyl.  I looked but unfortunately didn't see where it was stamped any particular brand.  Was hoping to see Troxel or Mesinger or Persons but no luck.  Thanks.


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## axsepul (Feb 9, 2012)

catfish said:


> That's just my Westfield stuff. I have close to 3000 badges........ It's beyond a problem.




no wonder all the good and rare headbadges are never for sale! you should write a book with pictures and a bit of history with each badge!


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## catfish (Feb 10, 2012)

axsepul said:


> no wonder all the good and rare headbadges are never for sale! you should write a book with pictures and a bit of history with each badge!




Maybe someday.....


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