# Sold quick. Military Huffman?



## fordmike65 (Jun 17, 2020)

Just popped up for a sec on eBay and gone. I'm no expert, but those look like pretty beefy welds. Heavy Duty front wheel too 









						Vintage Antique Dayton Huffman Prewar 1940's Boys 26" Bicycle Bike Tank troxel   | eBay
					

<p dir="ltr">Vintage Antique Dayton Huffman Prewar 1940's Boys 26" Bicycle Bike Tank troxel . Condition is Used. Project bike for sure. Frame appears to be straight. Wheels Spin but both have issues. Heavy duty wheel up front, new departure coaster in back. Troxel Springer saddle. Appear to be...



					rover.ebay.com


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 26, 2020)

I was the lucky buyer... saw it on the eBay BIN bar across the top!  It just arrived today, and it's definitely what it looks like.  WW2 G519 Dayton.  1943.


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 26, 2020)




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## catfish (Jun 26, 2020)

Nice


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## Sandman (Jun 26, 2020)

Gall- Lee


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## DaGasMan (Jun 26, 2020)

Well, they’re still out there and that’s encouraging. Great score.


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## blackcat (Jun 27, 2020)

DaGasMan said:


> Well, they’re still out there and that’s encouraging. Great score.



Hello;
What's more, safe 
Regards;
Serge


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## Mercian (Jun 27, 2020)

Hi Dave,

Very nice, thanks for sharing.

I make that H127471, with a fork date 93, September 1943.

This is very near the end of what appears to be the second contract for Huffman G519. 

The closest frame I have recorded is H127317, which served in Cairo, Egypt. Seen here about midway down Liberator's web page. I think this now belongs to @HUFFMANBILL 



			Military Bicycles
		


For information, I now have 36 Huffman G519 recorded. 

For Columbias, I have 2 MF, 65 MG, 5 MC and 9 Ladies MG recorded.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 27, 2020)

Mercian said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Very nice, thanks for sharing.
> 
> ...



Thanks Adrian, 

I asked the seller for history, but he had none. It was found in Colorado... no history beyond that is know.

Fortunately, I have a few of the missing parts already in my junk pile.... handlebars, headlight, pump/clamp.  Possibly have a chain-guard, pedals and side stand.  The only part I'm confused about is the fenders/braces. They look very generic, so I may have some already... or are these fender unique to these bikes?

DS


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## Mercian (Jun 28, 2020)

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the additional information.

It's good that you have parts stashed for this, they are harder to find spares for that the Columbia's.

I forgot to mention that the original Morrow rear hub was probably dated M3, all the known Morrows from the last part of this group are M3, and September is probably too early to have moved onto an M4. That said, it's common for these bikes not to have the original Morrow, tires would be changed in a workshop where there might be several bikes, or even spare wheels ready to go, so they would be easily mixed up.

Incidentally, the Torrington 8 pedals on the bike are the correct ones, just lacking the wooden blocks. If you decide to replace them, then I would be happy to buy them off you, please let me know (-:

Here's a photo study of an unrestored Huffman, built about a month before yours, H124670



			my debut in the world of G519... - G503 Military Vehicle Message Forums
		


This gives you some good close ups of the fender braces on a Huffman, they hav a ridge pressed into them, and the hole for the axle is elongated, which is a weak point and often found broken/repaired.

I can't say how 'generic' the fenders are, but they certainly appear on prewar Huffmans, such as this Dec 1941..









						Can someone please identify this bike for me!! | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

This bicycle has been hanging in the barn for as long as I can remember. Anyone know anything about it. please help. Thanks. It does have a Belknap tag on the front. What year?? I have no idea.




					thecabe.com
				




Going back to the unrestored bike, you should note some unusual features. The pedals ar not Torrington 8's but Persons, though they have wood blocks, and look like they could have been original. The side stand is not standard, but Huffmanbill says that these have appeared on several Huffmans. The wheel rims are not the type like your front wheel, but straight sided (I'm sure there's a term I don't know), and this occurs on quite a few Huffmans, including mine.

Parts variations due to wartime shortages is not uncommon, and can be seen on many military vehicles. This bike was built at the same time as a big contract was going through Westfield, so , as a smaller purchaser, they were probably second in line for parts.

The gurrd on wartime Huffmans (and , I think, prewar), is a little diffzerent to postwar, there is an oval lined pattern pressed into the leading edge of the guard.

The upper bracket for the truss rods is different beytween a Huffman and Columbia. The Columbia has a rounded bracket, like this one from Bergerwerke






						Bw upper truss bracket
					






					www.bergerwerke.com
				




The Huffman has  a squarer bracket, as seen in the unrestored bike pictures. The lower bracket on these late models is the same.

The bolt heads are also recessed on the Huffman, and rounded on the Columbia, the slots for the axle are again elongated on the Huffman.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## HUFFMANBILL (Jun 28, 2020)

If you look close you will notice that you have two different style T8 pedal frames on this bike.  On the right side is the correct T8 frame for a 1943 Huffman of this date, which has the non pointed or rounded or Roman style back-plate.  On the left side pedal is the pointed or gothic style back-plate, which matches it's front plate and was seen mainly on early and some mid year 1942 military models.  Of course both pedals would need the correct style wood blocks.  

Are the spare parts that you have on hand original military or civilian matches to the originals?  

Nice find!  Oh, and yes Huffman #H127317 is mine.  I have the history on this bike and the photo in Johan's Liberator site is a war-time pic of the original owner and rider T5 Clyde Wright 1944-45, Eygpt.

Good Luck on the restoration.
Regards,
Bill


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## DaGasMan (Jun 28, 2020)

All bets are off on the rear wheel, hub, chain and sprocket. At 1/2” , they’re  obviously replacement parts. Spokes are wrong size as well. 
So this now brings the crank and pedals into suspicion of being replaced at some time. One pedal probably being a Military motor pool replacement.
And it seems likely that the pedals were  “repaired“ at some time by the looks of the mix and match rubber.


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 28, 2020)

Mercian said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Thanks for the additional information.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all the detailed info, I appreciate it... I'll take a close look at the pics in the links you posted.

I found some truss rods that I think are correct, but I'm checking reference pics to make sure. I also have the correct top bracket (I think).  I am pretty sure I have a lower bracket too, but can't find it at the moment.


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 28, 2020)

HUFFMANBILL said:


> If you look close you will notice that you have two different style T8 pedal frames on this bike.  On the right side is the correct T8 frame for a 1943 Huffman of this date, which has the non pointed or rounded or Roman style back-plate.  On the left side pedal is the pointed or gothic style back-plate, which matches it's front plate and was seen mainly on early and some mid year 1942 military models.  Of course both pedals would need the correct style wood blocks.
> 
> Are the spare parts that you have on hand original military or civilian matches to the originals?
> 
> ...



The parts I have are correct, but I think my pump is an earlier version, it doesn't have the groove at the bottom... otherwise same.  My handlebars are military version, there are remnants of OD green on them still. My headlight is the pre-war Delta "Winner" with the screw at the back, and I still need to find my chain-guard to see if it's the pre-war version.

As for the pedals, the left pedal had it's outer plate replaced with one from a J.C. Higgins... the blocks are from the Higgins too (with the lettering).  The Torrington 8 that's on there isn't original either, it's cad plated, so probably 50's version, but I have plenty of Torrington 8 pedals... just goona have to find some proper blocks.

Crank and sprocket are standard  late pre-war Elgin or early Higgins, and obviously not correct.


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 28, 2020)

DaGasMan said:


> All bets are off on the rear wheel, hub, chain and sprocket. At 1/2” , they’re  obviously replacement parts. Spokes are wrong size as well.
> So this now brings the crank and pedals into suspicion of being replaced at some time. One pedal probably being a Military motor pool replacement.
> And it seems likely that the pedals were  “repaired“ at some time by the looks of the mix and match rubber.



Yeah, the rear wheel isn't right, but I do have a correct rim I'll have to dig out.  And as mentioned in my past reply above, the sprocket and crank are from an Elgin or Higgins.


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## Mercian (Jun 28, 2020)

Hi @Dave Stromberger 

Here's a few photos from dismantling mine, which is close in date to yours. 

For the truss rod plates:






I understand the top plate was used postwar on civilian Huffmans, just plated.

For the rods, I took comparative photos of a Westfield and Huffman made the same month.





The lower rod is Westfield, the upper Huffman.









Below, the left recessed nut is Huffman, and the right rounded one, Westfield

.







You can see that there is even a difference in the thread pitch between the two. The coarse pitch is Huffman, the fine pitch, Westfield.

Here are a couple of photos of the chainwheel and crank.









Please let me know if you need any other detail pics, I may have them.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## HUFFMANBILL (Jun 28, 2020)

Hi Adrian,

Just for your records, I checked the truss rod bolts to all my 1942 and 1943 Huffman and Columbia Military bikes and just like the 1943 bikes the 1942 bikes appear ( at least with mine ) to have the same style truss rod bolts.  Recessed head, coarse thread for Huffman and Round head, fine thread for Columbia.

Regards,
Bill


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## HUFFMANBILL (Jun 28, 2020)

Dave Stromberger said:


> As for the pedals, the left pedal had it's outer plate replaced with one from a J.C. Higgins... the blocks are from the Higgins too (with the lettering). The Torrington 8 that's on there isn't original either, it's cad plated, so probably 50's version, but I have plenty of Torrington 8 pedals... just goona have to find some proper blocks.



Dave,  I realized that the pedal blocks were not correct and from the angle of the ebay listing photo the left side front pedal plate appeared to me to be torrington.  However, all that aside,  my main point was to be sure that the T8 pedals you use on your project have the somewhat pointed front plate and rounded back plate as on your right side pedal.  That would be correct for 1943.

Regards,
Bill


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 28, 2020)

HUFFMANBILL said:


> Dave,  I realized that the pedal blocks were not correct and from the angle of the ebay listing photo the left side front pedal plate appeared to me to be torrington.  However, all that aside,  my main point was to be sure that the T8 pedals you use on your project have the somewhat pointed front plate and rounded back plate as on your right side pedal.  That would be correct for 1943.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill



Oh I get it now, the inside and outside plates have different shaped "points"... I had no idea.. thanks for pointing that out! I was just assuming standard Torrington #8.

Thanks,
DS


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 28, 2020)

Mercian said:


> Hi @Dave Stromberger
> 
> Here's a few photos from dismantling mine, which is close in date to yours.
> 
> ...



Very helpful info and detail pics... very much appreciated!


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 8, 2021)

Just picked up a rear wheel for this project (thanks @barneyguey!).  Date code is L1, first quarter '42. Too early, but hopefully still "close enough" ?  Strangely, the hub and its parts are nickel plated, but painted over O.D. Green.  Also, the rim profile and the spoke nipples don't match the front wheel that came with the bike. Maybe this wheel is from a Cycletruck, or?


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## blackcat (Jun 8, 2021)

Hello ;
Your hub, 36-10 or 36-13?
Regards;
Serge


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 9, 2021)

blackcat said:


> Hello ;
> Your hub, 36-10 or 36-13?
> Regards;
> Serge



36-10


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## blackcat (Jun 9, 2021)

Re;
Nice find !
Regards;
Serge


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## Trail Rider (Jun 11, 2021)

blackcat said:


> Re;
> Nice find !
> Regards;
> Serge



Hi Serge

Looks like we both have the last recorded Westfield Columbia G519’s. I just purchased and now plan to restore M14199A. I’m in need of accessories (preferably original ones not reproduction) for a kick stand, pump, Bevin Bell, and Persons tool kit. Looking over the amazing job you did restoring your and was hoping you may have a source for securing these accessories?


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## Mercian (Jun 12, 2021)

Hi @Dave Stromberger

Some of the early G519's in the first Huffman contract used L1 dated Morrows, as did some of the MF type Columbia G519's. So it would be entirely appropriate for a G519 restored to 'Motor Pool' quality, ie, using correct WW2 parts.

I see you are advertising to exchange it for an M date code instead. You may have luck, I see from the G519 listings one Columbia and three Huffman's where this could happen (and a couple of owners are members here). Best of Luck.









						TRADE:  WW2 Military G519 L1 Rear Wheel for M3 Rear Wheel - Morrow | Sell - Trade: Bicycle Parts, Accessories, Ephemera
					

I have a complete L1 date coded rear wheel for a G519. I'm looking to trade for a complete wheel with a M date code. Prefer M3, but I'm flexible.  Also may be interested in purchasing (or trading) just the shell.




					thecabe.com
				




Best Regards, Adrian


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 12, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Hi @Dave Stromberger
> 
> Some of the early G519's in the first Huffman contract used L1 dated Morrows, as did some of the MF type Columbia G519's. So it would be entirely appropriate for a G519 restored to 'Motor Pool' quality, ie, using correct WW2 parts.
> 
> ...



Thanks Adrian!

I should buy a lottery ticket!  What are the odds that I should end up with not ONE but TWO G519 rear wheels within the span of just a few days?  Just yesterday, another local bike friend came to me with a "heavy duty old wheel"... with a M2 date code!  It has a rim and spoke nipples that match my front wheel. Just ONE quarter earlier than the ideal M3 wheel for my bike. Most of the original O.D. Green paint is intact, too.  Pics coming soon.


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## Mercian (Jun 12, 2021)

Ah Dave,

they're like buses....

Seriously, that's impressive. (-: Have you asked him where the rest of the bike is?

And I wouldn't argue about one quarter earlier, back of the shelf, bottom of the box. One quarter later... Well, I probably wouldn't argue that either, in reality.

I'm sure the other one will find a home without difficulty should you decide to move it on. There are far more frames than hubs available.

I would wish you an excellent weekend, but it appears you are already having one.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 12, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Ah Dave,
> 
> they're like buses....
> 
> ...



He told me it was in a pile of parts he bought. I asked him to keep an eye out for other O.D. Green parts. We'll see!


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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 12, 2021)




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## Dave Stromberger (Jun 12, 2021)

Apparently they used fabric tape for rim strips, instead of red rubber like you'd see on civilian bikes.


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## blackcat (Jun 13, 2021)

Trail Rider said:


> Hi Serge
> 
> Looks like we both have the last recorded Westfield Columbia G519’s. I just purchased and now plan to restore M14199A. I’m in need of accessories (preferably original ones not reproduction) for a kick stand, pump, Bevin Bell, and Persons tool kit. Looking over the amazing job you did restoring your and was hoping you may have a source for securing these accessories?




Thank you for your interest, you have the penultimate one, the last one is the MG14220A wich is being restored at a friend's place here in France.
For the parts, i have no sources, i am at the moment, just like you, looking for the same parts for my new project.
The majority of business takes place during the day at home; wich for us, it happens at night when i sleep  😿 
Regards;
Serge


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## Trail Rider (Jun 13, 2021)

Thanks for sharing that information Serge. If I can be of help in alerting you to any parts or accessories (given the time zones differences) I would be happy to do. I just missed an original brass pump and original clamps.
Trying to track back some history on my bike but it appears like your and your fiends it was in France at some point and brought back to the USA. We need to swap some pictures as we get these last of the lot G519’s restored.


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## Mercian (Jun 13, 2021)

Hi, @Trail Rider @blackcat 

Below is what I currently have recorded for all MG and MC bikes in 1944. I recently found the exact date that the A suffix started (20th Jan 1944), which is why 1944 is divided into two parts.





@Mountain Trail Andy currently has the newest known at MG14250A. It will be interesting to see if any later ones than this survive.

Because production of G519's finished early 1944, they all had a chance to be used on active service.

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## blackcat (Jun 13, 2021)

Hello Adrian;
You're right, i forgot that of @Mountain Trail Andy 🙀 yes the last one for the moment...
Regards;
Serge


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## Trail Rider (Jun 13, 2021)

Mercian said:


> Hi, @Trail Rider @blackcat
> 
> Below is what I currently have recorded for all MG and MC bikes in 1944. I recently found the exact date that the A suffix started (20th Jan 1944), which is why 1944 is divided into two parts.
> 
> ...



Amazing that you know and record all these details. It would cool to add a column for where these bikes now are located. My bicycle that I just purchased is going to Bergerwerke Bicycles who specializes in restoration of G519s. Will share some pictures as it gets professionally restored.


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## Mercian (Jun 16, 2021)

Trail Rider said:


> Amazing that you know and record all these details. It would cool to add a column for where these bikes now are located. My bicycle that I just purchased is going to Bergerwerke Bicycles who specializes in restoration of G519s. Will share some pictures as it gets professionally restored.




Hi, @Trail Rider

Yes, Bergerwerke do good work, and used to make excellent replicas.

There is a column in progress on these listings for G519, not for current location (since they move around, it would be impossible to keep it up to date), but for origin instead. My original idea was to see if there was any way of seeing how/where these bikes were allocated originally. From anecdotal evidence, we seem to see more of the later ones here in europe, and the earlier ones are in the US. That makes sense, since the requirements closest to home would be filled first, and then we see large batches of bicycles built in late 1943 (and many other items too) in preparation for what would be DDay.

There are, of course, exceptions. One of the only two known early MF serial bikes is in France, the other in the US.

It's a bit of a slog to do, and the origins arn't always evident, so I progress on it only when I'm especially bored (-:

Best Regards,

Adrian


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## Trail Rider (Jun 16, 2021)

That is great. I’m trying to locate a frame builder from the Westfield Columbia factory that worked in 70s. I have heard he is an avid collector and may have access or has in his possession of archive files that may have some very specific details. If I succeed in finding him will certainly share what I learn.


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## New Mexico Brant (Jun 16, 2021)

Trail Rider said:


> That is great. I’m trying to locate a frame builder from the Westfield Columbia factory that worked in 70s. I have heard he is an avid collector and may have access or has in his possession of archive files that may have some very specific details. If I succeed in finding him will certainly share what I learn.



Is this Mr. Columbia?


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## Trail Rider (Jun 16, 2021)

Hi @New Mexico Brant. That name was not mentioned to me but it is possible that is who the person I spoke to was referencing.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 16, 2021)

Trail Rider said:


> Hi @New Mexico Brant. That name was not mentioned to me but it is possible that is who the person I spoke to was referencing.



@MrColumbia


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## MrColumbia (Jun 17, 2021)

I worked at Columbia in the late 70's and early 80's but I'm no frame builder.


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## Trail Rider (Jun 17, 2021)

Wow. Think I saw you in video Columbia Bicycles the Launch. Amazing bicycle collection. The G519 in that video looked immaculate. Any chance you have archives and details that can be shared on the production of the G 519s.


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