# New Topic "Name that Part"



## rmhenaghan (Dec 15, 2009)

I thought we should start a new thread called "Name That Part" Maybe we can stump the pros. Send your pics of your rare parts. 

Ron


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## militarymonark (Dec 15, 2009)

i'll start you off with an easy one


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 15, 2009)

*how bout this one?*


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## militarymonark (Dec 15, 2009)

thats looks like an elgin long spring seat prewar


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 15, 2009)

*"Prizes for the top dogs"*

anyone that can name the first ten items posted will get a 4 pack of tickets to the Nostalgia Nationals at Virginia motorsports Park May 14th through the 16th, 2010. It's mostly about classic cars, showing and racing but with my new hobby I decided to add a classic bike show and swap meet.

Ron


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 15, 2009)

*tell me the year and model?*


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## sam (Dec 15, 2009)

37 silver king only it's the wards version.


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## WES PINCHOT (Dec 15, 2009)

1938 schwinn autocycle double duty fork with a cycle lock!


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 15, 2009)

Ok, I got a couple for ya!


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## bentwoody66 (Dec 15, 2009)

Looks like a dual silverray mount and a Hetchins frame


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 16, 2009)

*Score*

Military 1
Sam     1


Not sure about Wes?


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## JOEL (Dec 16, 2009)

Try this one, ebay # 230410799927

It kinda does look like a saddle but the frame doesn't look very sturdy and what's with the loop at the rear?


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## militarymonark (Dec 16, 2009)

wes got it right


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## militarymonark (Dec 16, 2009)

kinda looks like the cover for a buddy seat


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## sam (Dec 17, 2009)

That looks like a touring bag support


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 17, 2009)

*name this bike!*


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## sam (Dec 17, 2009)

The Johnny Cash one piece at a time bicycle


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## militarymonark (Dec 17, 2009)

prewar hawthorne with a schwinn stingray chainring


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## OldRider (Dec 17, 2009)

Can anybody name this saddle?


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## RMS37 (Dec 17, 2009)

I?d name Oldrider?s saddle ?forlorn? 

Moving backwards to the ?name this bike?, bike; it is wearing a Stingray chain ring but what caught my eye is that it is a *Westfield built* bike not a Snyder built one. The darts are in the typical spear pattern that was used on many Snyder products and is generally associated with the Rollfast brand but it was a proprietary pattern and not used as original paint by Westfield which had several proprietary paint patterns of their own. 

The easiest explanation is that the bike was partially or wholly repainted at some time. While it looks like original paint in the picture that can?t be judged from a photo. Other more involved explanations are possible but require more gymnastic work to put in place.

It is unlikely that the bike is a Hawthorne both because Westfield was not a Ward?s supplier of note and, while the dart pattern is that of a Snyder product, (Snyder was Ward?s largest supplier) Snyder Hawthorns did not utilize that pattern, more typically being painted with plain darts or fancier patterns that were Ward?s exclusives.


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 18, 2009)

I know what that seat is!
I put a Wrights seat on my Rat Rod bike


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 18, 2009)

P.S. Ken got the two I put up.


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## OldRider (Dec 18, 2009)

37Fleetwood is correct...........someone give that dude a cigar!!


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 18, 2009)

*re: name that bike*

This is what a friend of mine, Jerry Peters, came up with:


"Your bike is a 1941 Columbia "50" Series Motobike Equipped Model F59T".

The badge is missing. 
Ron


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## sam (Dec 18, 2009)

That leather saddle : Brooks,Wrights,or Middlemore,not sure which one as the all made that pattern.


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## sam (Dec 18, 2009)

*Early Hub*

This early hub is stamped with the name of the "house"brand of the Company that first made Indian MC's engines.Name this house brand.


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## militarymonark (Dec 18, 2009)

Hendee Manufacturing Company


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 18, 2009)

*Score*

Fleetwood 2
Military     2
Sam         1
Wes         1
RMS 37    1/2 (I don't what it is so I'm giving 1/2 point)
Ken          2


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 18, 2009)

*let see how good you guys are?*


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 18, 2009)

this last one looks like the washer under the front fender, I have no idea what brand though.

here's one for you, should be an easy one.


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 18, 2009)

*37 fleetwood scores 1/2 more point*

fender washer for 47' Dayton. Thanks, couldn't remember where it went!

37 Fleetwood in the lead with 2 1/2 points!


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## sam (Dec 18, 2009)

Sorry militaryMonark.....Hendee Manufacturing Company ...is not correct.Try again---sam


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## sam (Dec 18, 2009)

Blues Brothers Glassies


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 19, 2009)

sam said:


> This early hub is stamped with the name of the "house"brand of the Company that first made Indian MC's engines.Name this house brand.



I believe they were built by Aurora?


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 19, 2009)

another one for you guys you don't get to guess Marc


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## JOEL (Dec 19, 2009)

Yikes! X Ray vision glasses? Do they work through the computer screen?


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 19, 2009)

actually the guy in the glasses is commonly known as the common North American bike nut, usually spotted at swap meets and bike shows. sometimes agreeable but can become pernicious when making a deal, this example however should be known to most here if you consider yourselves to be into bikes.
what's his name?


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## sam (Dec 19, 2009)

I believe they were built by Aurora? 
__________________

Thanx!
Scott 

Scott gets 1/2 point ---yes Aurora did make the first motors used by Indian---Now this hub is marked with Aurora's "house"brand name.
What name did Aurora use for their MCs?


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## sam (Dec 19, 2009)

37fleetwood said:


> another one for you guys you don't get to guess Marc




37 daton with welded on kick stand---sam


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 19, 2009)

Ha ha, now you get the 1/2 point!
1940 is the year Huffman welded on their kickstands.


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 20, 2009)

*frame?*

name the year, who made it? Give me an update on the score. Looks like MM lost a 1/2 point on the wheel. Scott +1/2


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## militarymonark (Dec 20, 2009)

girls shelby


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## militarymonark (Dec 20, 2009)

http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&i...&th=125ab1c5112f10e2&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 20, 2009)

*Military got the 1/2 point back!*

What year? M.M check out the post in the break room, classic cars. Posted something for you.


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## militarymonark (Dec 20, 2009)

hmmmm its a 48


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## Pee Wee (Dec 21, 2009)

In regards to the first bike posted by rmhenaghan (blue and white.)   I would wager that this is a Rollfast.   It does look like a very old re-paint job, but there is enough of the body, including truss rods and chain-guard, that scream "Rollfast !!"   Are those deluxe Schwinn grips ???  (Blast me off of here if I am wrong !)  Many a wayward bike was pieced together over the years and sold from backyards as second-hand.  Usually an older retired gentleman, who had a friend at the city dump, made extra income this way.  He would get the trashed bikes for free, salvage what he could, and piece together a "new" re-incarnated ride for kid or adult that did not have the funds for the latest model.  The buyer was only interested in getting from point A to point B.   Oh, the bikes I passed up in this class 25 years ago !


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 21, 2009)

*Rollfast?*

I am stumped as well. I found some pics on Nostalgic of a Rollfast and It has the same paint scheme. But the kicker is that it has a 41 Columbia serial number starting in F then 154146. It also has a straight downbar unlike the upscale columbia's. A friends description "Your bike is a 1941 Columbia "50" Series Motobike Equipped Model F59T"

Another friend said the retailers like Wards and Sears might be selling Rollfast's
and change to another Manufacturer and ask for the same paint scheme.

I don't see why someone would try to duplicate the Rollfast paint scheme and do such a nice job. It is pin striped by hand. 

The bike is in great shape and I do not think it was dug up from a junk yard.
It has been in storage for 25 years. So the repaint must be 25 years or more.

I noticed another bike on Nostalgic, a 1941 Columbia Sterling. The picture was low res so it was hard to make out. It looks alot like this bike. My head badge is missing but the only clue is the holes run horizontal and are spaced 1 13/16" apart.

Any help would be great. Yes thay are Schwinn grips. It's no wonder that any bikes have the original parts on them anymore. Can you remember when you were a kid? how many times did you take your bike apart and loose parts? Or going to the bike shop to upgrade your grips or add a rear rack? How about the bike shops upgrading the bikes when they were new?

Ron


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 21, 2009)

*Columbia serial numbers*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

oldroads.com - Menotomy Vintage Bicycles
Columbia Serial Numbers
1936 A-5429 through A-266083
1937 B-5000 through B195407
1938 C-5000 through C-130896
1939 D-5000 through D-156044
1940 E-5000 through E-168879
1941 F-5000 through F-213132 and G-5000 through G-17433
1942 G-17434 through G-112858
1943 G-112859 through G-195135
1944 G-195136 through G200000 and W-5001A through W-85244A


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 21, 2009)

*ebay picture*

Here is a 41' Columbia on Ebay with the same frame, seat, chainguard, forks, truss rods, rack, fenders.


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 21, 2009)

*rollfast darts*

A pic off Ebay on the darts. They are the same, but notice the frame is different, I am stumped.

Ron


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 21, 2009)

*darts on my bike*


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## sam (Dec 22, 2009)

In dating a bike and the serial numbers .Bike companys didn't stop making the 'old'model when the newer ones came out.If you look at most catalogs under the fine print you will see a listing for the older models.Many offered 28" tired models till about 39 or 40.So mixing of the old and new paint styles might be what was correct or done to up-grade the older style frames.---sam


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## sam (Dec 22, 2009)

37fleetwood said:


> I believe they were built by Aurora?




Thor was Aurora's brand---and that's the name stamped on the hub.---sam


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## RMS37 (Dec 22, 2009)

Back to rmhenaghan's bike, with the additional confusion, I?ll run through this one again.

The first thing that needs to be considered is that in answering the question ?who made this bike?; the response can be clouded by several factors, swapped parts being one and paint being another (it would be more correct to describe the bike in question as a Stingray with everything but the chain ring swapped out rather than refer to it as a Rollfast which it certainly is not.) 

My take is that defining which manufacturer produced the frame is the answer and then one can go from there if any of the parts are not likely original to the bike. 

The second factor is that all bikes were produced by one of the major manufacturers (Less than twenty and more like a dozen) and then many were branded for sale by a distributor or retail chain. It is not always possible to determine what badge was originally applied to a bike but it should always be possible to determine which company made the frame. When describing who made a bike that has no head badge it is a common fallacy to call out a distributor rather than the manufacturer. Columbia and Rollfast are both brands and without a head badge or some other unique brand feature a bike might just as likely originally have worn some other badge. 

The two companies that are brought into question in this case are Westfield Manufacturing and the H.P. Snyder Manufacturing Company. 

From 20 feet away the answer would be Snyder (not just Rollfast as many Snyder produced bikes with alternate badges used those same darts) because the paint is a dead ringer for the distinctive spear point paint job that was often used on their products. From closer in the answer irrevocably becomes Westfield. Each American manufacturer had many hallmark features that they alone were set up and able to produce. Many features on this frame (most notably the seat binder arrangement) are among the Westfield hallmarks and take precedence over the paint in determining who manufactured the frame. The serial number in the distinctive Westfield pattern is another giveaway as to who made the frame.

That settled, the remaining questions are how the bike was originally branded and why is it wearing a Snyder pattern paint job. 

Badge holes are helpful to a degree with respect to pinning down a brand but often this only goes so far as to eliminate possibilities, another thing is to consider the standard channels of distribution at the time, i.e., Westfield sold a lot of product to Sear but is not documented to have produced for Wards (Hawthorne) and would not be involved in the production of a Rollfast as they were exclusively provided to D.P.Harris though an agreement with Snyder.  

In this case the puzzler is the paint job which goes against conventional knowledge of manufacture, branding and distribution. 

As I said the first time around, this is where you get to make up a story. Frame taking precedence over paint; we know what you are, we just don?t know who sold you and why you are wearing that makeup. The simplest story in my mind is that the darts were repainted after the bike was sold, when and for what reason we will never know. I have seen old refurbishment paint jobs that are virtually impossible to tell from the originals (much of the original work and striping was hand done so there is no reason to believe that a talented person could duplicate the look on their own.)

On the other hand, as the paint looks original, there is the possibility that it is. If that is the case then again we are left to our imaginations to decide why a Westfield product is dressed up as a Snyder product, which is somewhat akin to finding a Camaro with Boss Mustang decals.


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## 37fleetwood (Dec 22, 2009)

well I'm not sure if this explains anything but there was a 24" Murray frame on ebay that had factory Schwinn paint. it was clear by the photos that it wasn't a repaint. the frame was owned by a member here. the explanation I got when I inquired with Jerry Peters was that Schwinn would buy competitors bikes to run tests and such and apparently this one was one such frame. it was painted with Schwinn colors to kind of hide it from being obvious what they were doing. the frame came out of the Schwinn collection years ago and I suppose is to some extent documented as being what it clearly looked to be. is it possible that this bike is the same thing?
another possibility is that during the second World War it has been rumored that some bikes were factory refurbished, and not necessarily by the original manufacturer.


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## Pee Wee (Dec 22, 2009)

*Hmmm...*

Ron,
I have a mid-30's Rollfast awaiting future restoration.  The headbadge has the raised circle in the middle.   I just went out to remove it and measured the distance between holes.   The Rollfast of this vintage, which looks to be close to the age you have, had threaded screws for the headbadge.  Using a string and then comparing to a fixed measure (not scientific) I get just under 2 inches (1 13/16 " ???)  This particular vintage Rollfast has horizontal holes.  Can you see that the holes are threaded ??  Do not own a Columbia, but seem to recall that the ones I have seen are riveted.  

Pee Wee


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## militarymonark (Dec 22, 2009)

so I just got off the phone with a friend of mine gary meyer and he was talking about his father and how he worked in a bike shop during the war. So he mentioned that because people were not buying new bikes they had them refurbished and at that time for 10 bucks you could have your bike painted and pinstriped and greased up and pretty much put to new. Well the shop used a columbia paint scheme and pinstripe on all bikes. So this might shed some light this bike. Since one shop did this no telling how many other shops could have done the same thing. So your bike might be one frame manufacturer and a copied bike shop paint scheme from another bike company.


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 22, 2009)

*threaded holes*

Pee Wee, i can't tell unless I strip some paint out of the holes. Well I decided that this hobby is harder than researching the 71 Trans Am restoration I did. I have decided to build a resto mod bike, not out of the blue one but another one I have. I'm going to choose the color scheme that I like, not whats correct, locate some cool fenders with a big lip that cover the tires, powdercoat some new rims, go with fat whitewalls, no rack and extend the front forks out, add a repro seat and just ride it. I thank all you guys for your help on the Westrollumbia. 

/2".


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 23, 2009)

*Just a thought*

37 Fleetwood has got the right idea building the Rat posted in this thread. I have spent the last 20 year restoring cars for a hobby. I started with early GTO's, 396 Chevelles and Trans Am's. When I first got into the car hobby I had purchased a 1965 GTO tri Power, four speed from the original owner in Pasadena, CA. this car was original in every way. I spent 6 months researching every little detail about the car. I entered it in a car show in So. Cal and had several people come up to me to mention that the gas line fitting on the center carb was wrong for the year. I wanted the car to be just like it left the factory. Several car builds later I realized that I was building the cars for my peers to accept them, not really for me. As the restorations totaled up, my goal for the finished product changed 180 degrees. I got away from the trailer queens that I had built, to something I could drive and enjoy. I started upgrading the brake systems to stop all the horsepower. Bigger brakes called for bigger wheels. I changed the suspension to handle better than the factory cars ever did. I would upgrade the sound systems, but do it in a way that you couldn't see them. I now had a car that I liked and the funny thing, other people liked them as well. I would love to see more Resto Mod bikes out there. Most of the mods on a bike could be put back to bone stock in a few hours by saving the original parts for when you sell the bike. 

Build bikes that look cool and drive better. how about adding a 6 speed gear setup out back. You can always put it back to stock over a weekend. 

I will keep you posted on my new Resto Mod project.

Ron


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## Pee Wee (Dec 23, 2009)

Biggest laugh I have had all day !  You need to get that name in print on a head badge !   Now that I look at your last pic, I seem to get a hint of Iver Johnson, no, Shelby, but then again, J.C. Higgins had that style of.....  Just call it "Frankenbike !"


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## sam (Dec 23, 2009)

This 20" BMX fork was made by a major(non American) Bicycle Compamy and only sold in America and only in 1969.


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 23, 2009)

*Samurai Sushi Stingray forks?*

Don't laugh at Frankenbike, give me 2 months to scrape of the 2 coats of hand painted battleship grey paint. It's got to be the uglyist bike I own.
Ron


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## rmhenaghan (Dec 26, 2009)

*name that paint scheme*

check this pattern out and name it.


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