# monark 5-bar



## pgroah (Jun 30, 2008)

I am building a Monark 5-bar.  I have three frames One mens tank frame, one mens tankless frame and one womens tank frame.  Should I sacrafice the womens bicycle to complete one or both of the mens bicycles.   does any one have a picture of a complete bicycle of the tankless frame. see attached images any help will be appreciated


----------



## Classicriders (Jul 1, 2008)

This should help a bit.
http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle289.htm


----------



## pgroah (Jul 1, 2008)

*thanks*

Thanks for the link, to the great site. Is there anyone out there that has restored a 5-bar and would be share some info. correct light, fenders, chainguard, handlebars ect. thanks for the help.


----------



## Classicriders (Jul 1, 2008)

This should also help.
http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1289.htm


----------



## pgroah (Jul 1, 2008)

*thanks for the help*

Great pictures thanks. Dave's Classics has a wealth of information.  Have you seen any pictures of the the frame that I have without the tank.  Do you think it may be a Hawthorn, it seems there was some cross branding with Hawthorn, Spiegel and I have even heard western flyer mentioned in reguards to the 5-bar.  Thanks again I am new to the hobby and could use any info Paul


----------



## pgroah (Jul 1, 2008)

*Awsome*

Unbelievable That is my frame I have never seen any photos.  Is that a Hawthorne, Dayton headbadge, or an Airman. it doesn't look like the period Monark. The fenders are'nt shallow gothic like most 5-bars. these photos clear up a lot of issues with restoring this frame. can't thank you enough Paul


----------



## RMS37 (Jul 1, 2008)

Hi,

The pictures of your frames are not viewable so I?ll note some generalities about 5-Bars. 

5-Bar frames were manufactured by three different companies; Monark, H.P. Snyder, and Cleveland Welding. 

There are a lot of year, model, and badge variations for 5-Bars.  

Monark sold variations of their 5-Bar frames as Monarks and through second tier distributors with a variety of badges. H.P. Snyder built models were primarily sold as Montgomery Ward Hawthornes but I have seen pictures of one original example badged and decaled as a Rollfast.  All the Cleveland Welding 5-bars  I have seen have been badged for Hawthorne.

To correctly restore any 5-Bar it is important to know which of the three manufacturers produced the bicycle. While several versions are very similar and (especially in the case of Hawthornes) were sold side by side with each other, many of the individual parts are unique to the specific manufacturer.

The easiest way to determine which of the three companies produced a given bicycle (this works for all 5-bars, boy?s and girl?s models) is to look at the crank hanger and the upper rear fender bridge.   

Monark frames are the easiest to separate as the twin down tubes run under the crank hanger continuously from the head tube to the rear dropouts. Monark 5-Bars also have steel reinforcing bands wrapping around the top and bottom of the head tube

Snyder and Cleveland Welding frames are more conventional with the downtubes attached to the front of the crank hanger and the chain stays attached to the rear. Neither have the head tube reinforcements. Snyder frames have small lugs protruding from the crank hanger where the tubes enter.  Cleveland Welding frames do not.

The upper rear fender bridge on Monark frames has a gentle curve.  Snyder frames also have a curved bridge but the curve is more pronounced. Cleveland Welding 5-Bars use a straight tube for this bridge.

In addition, the rear dropout plates and drop stand ears are different for each manufacturer, matching the standard pattern used by the manufacturer. 

Regarding the sourced photographs; the first is a Monark bicycle.  The Airman Champion is also a Monark built bicycle. The photos from Chestnut Hollow show an excellent condition, blue Monark no-tank 5-Bar next to a rough Snyder no-tank 5-Bar. Note the frame differences at the crank hanger.

I hope this is usefull, other specifics would depend on what frames you are starting with.
There are several posts on the site describing how to get photos to upload.

In answer to your other question, sacrificing the ladies model for parts for the boys may be a reasonable option. The two factors to take into account are whether on not all the bikes are from the same manufacturer and the overall condition of the girl?s bike.  If the girl?s bike is in good original condition you might be able to sell it whole or trade it off for the parts you need to complete the restoration of the boy?s models.

Phil


----------



## RMS37 (Jul 1, 2008)

And....

Both the bikes at Chestnut Hollow are badged Hawthorne, That style of tankless 5-bar was at least semi-exclusive to Montgomery Ward. The early Monark versions use crescent shaped Monark fenders.  The Snyder version may be a bit later and has gothic Snyder fenders. You can also note the differences the seat clamp, the head tube reinforcement, and the lug at the juncture of the lower top tub and the seat tube. The Monark is 1/2" pitch, typical for Monark, the Snyder has a Hawthorne pattern 1" pitch chainring.

Daytons were produced by Huffman Manufacturing which never made a 5-Bar model.

To my knowledge, all the Spiegel Airman 5-Bars were produced by Monark and used the version of the Monark ?Superframe? that has a straight lower top tube.


----------



## Classicriders (Jul 2, 2008)

I believe that your tankless frame to be a Snyder built frame.  Here are a couple more links to help you out with you tank version.
http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/202.htm
http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/204.htm


----------



## Aeropsycho (Jul 2, 2008)

*Rms37!!!*

 Since you a know little about these 5 Bars... do you know which year did they have the rare handle bars and any info on the super rare frame with rear suspension! If you have pictures or info on this as well I have the stuff from Dave's site I need a tank really bad but it looks like plastic will be what I can get...

I have a Cream/Red and a Blue/Red

Do you have a image of the Monark Airman badge for them as well?

Thanks for your input on all the posts on here I learn something everyday from you!!!

J...


----------



## Classicriders (Jul 2, 2008)

On closer examination, I take it back, I don;t think the tankless frame is Snyder.  I don;t believe that the Snyder frames had the double tubes go under the crank housing.
As for the super rare twin suspension five bar.  I have never heard of one ever being found.  I was lucky enough to be approached by a guy at the Memory Lane swap about four years ago who was looking for identification on a bike part.  What he showed me truly blew my mind.  It was the rear suspension fork piece from a five bar.  He said that he found it when digging through some old pack rat farmers piles of junk.  Several other collectors were there, including Nostalgic Dave.  I haven;t seen that collector since, I do remember that he was from Wisconsin however.  Funny, I am terrible at remembering names, but NEVER forget where someone is from.... or a mega rare bike part, lol.


----------



## mynameislegion (Jul 2, 2008)

I believe the 5 Bar bikes marketed by Montgomery Ward (badged Hawthorne) are actually Hawthorne Twin Bar models. The first year was 38 (I believe) and was not offered with a tank. 39 offered a tank and has a lighted jewel in the side. If you have a copy of James Hurd's "Collectable Elgin-JC Higgins and Hawthorne Bicycles" the 38 is on page 173 (a copy of the Montgomery Ward catalog page) and the 39 with the lighted jewel tank is on page 180. 
 Monark built the Super Frame and marketed them with the name "Five bar".
 They made both a straight bar tank model (M604) and a curved bar tankless model (M602)
 Perhaps collectors have dubbed the Hawthorne Twin Bars: "5 Bars " because of the similarity and the "Twin Bar" moniker conjours up visions of the Elgin Twin Bar, a very different style of frame. (My guess)


----------



## Classicriders (Jul 2, 2008)

It is also my understanding that the first use of the term "Twin Bar" was in 33/34 in describing the frames used on Elgin Black Hawk and Falcon models.


----------



## pgroah (Jul 2, 2008)

*thanks to all 5-bar experts*

Taking in all of this information, all of my frames seem to be Monark frames that all have the continuous bars that wrap under the crank hanger.  I am thinking that I may restore all of the bicycles. It would be novel to have an example of each in one collection. 

I will be looking for parts if anyone has parts that would work.  lights handlebars fenders, chain guards cranks, let me know. thanks Paul


----------



## pgroah (Jul 2, 2008)

*Thanks to all 5-bar experts*

Taking in all of this information, all of my frames seem to be Monark frames that all have the continuous bars that wrap under the crank hanger.  I am thinking that I may restore all of the bicycles. It would be novel to have an example of each in one collection. 

I will be looking for parts if anyone has parts that would work.  lights handlebars fenders, chain guards cranks, let me know. thanks Paul


----------



## supper15fiets (Jul 3, 2008)

here ....


----------



## newbee (Jan 31, 2011)

I just have to say this thread is a wealth of knowledge! I am obessed in finding more information on this rear suspension five bar. The link below says one exists? Well if one exists... where is it?! Why is there no pictures of it proving its existence? Mr. Dave can you please elaborate on that more? Where do you recieve that information?

http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle86.htm


----------



## redline1968 (Jan 31, 2011)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.


----------



## pgroah (Jan 31, 2011)

There was a post on the cabe by a member airman speigal find http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?8752-Spiegel-Airman-find&p=39984&highlight=#post39984 showing pictures of a rear suspension 5-bar.


----------



## 10~18kustoms (Jan 31, 2011)

newbee said:


> I just have to say this thread is a wealth of knowledge! I am obessed in finding more information on this rear suspension five bar. The link below says one exists? Well if one exists... where is it?! Why is there no pictures of it proving its existence? Mr. Dave can you please elaborate on that more? Where do you recieve that information?
> 
> http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle86.htm




Newbee, at least one exists, but I believe it to be # 2...mine is the one in the link pgroah refers to.  I found this twin suspension 5 Bar pretty much by accident a little over a year ago when my partner and I bought a group of 40 vintage bikes from an old bike shop in the MO Ozarks.  We had no idea what it was at the time but it was part of the 40. Shortly after getting them all home while trying to find out more about the Airman I also found the same link you did, on Dave's site with the 1939 Spiegel catalogue page.  I'm guessing this one to be #2 but have never seen pictures of or know much else about #1.  I did read in another old CABE post that it was locked away in a "closet" somewhere, and then later heard it is now being restored, but have no real info to back that up.  I too would like to know any more information on this bike or the other one if anyone can help?  Here are a couple  close up pictures of the rear suspension from # 2 in Kansas.


----------



## newbee (Feb 1, 2011)

Wow! Thanks for the info!

Are those the correct fenders for your bike?

What are your plans for it?


----------



## 10~18kustoms (Feb 2, 2011)

Yea, I believe the fenders to be correct, although I was skeptical at first after seeing the painted ones in the picture in the Spiegel Catalogue and these were different.  The fenders appear to be stainless steel and were probably polished originally.  I wasn’t sure if they could have been replaced, or were just possibly a deluxe or other version.  But, we had a local expert appraise it and he thought they appeared to be original, and I also sent pictures to Leon at the NBHAA, he was very helpful in deciphering what was correct, wrong, and missing on the bike.  In regard to the fenders he replied “Forget trying to match what you see in the catalogue. There were different versions.”   In addition, the fender braces which are hard riveted on are obviously specific to both the front and rear suspension. The rear fender has 3 braces, the front is shorter and attaches to the moveable yoke, the two rear braces attach to the frame and this allows the whole fender to move/pivot with the rear suspension, not something that could have been easly replaced.  

As far as our plans……were not sure, would really like to keep it and possibly try to restore it ourselves at some point, but there have been a few others seriously interested in it, just haven’t had an offer yet we couldn‘t refuse.


----------



## pgroah (Feb 2, 2011)

What would be an offer you couldn't refuse?


----------



## pgroah (Feb 3, 2011)

I am getting close to completing my mens tank 5-bar.  Paint is on and crome is at the plater.  I will post pictures soon.  I am a 5-bar geek, for me the rear suspension is the Holy Grail. I would be interested in seeing any progress,  contributing to, or aquiring the bicycle.


----------



## 10~18kustoms (Feb 5, 2011)

Paul, really couldn't say right now?  Guess we are just not ready to put a price on it and let it go yet, still dreaming of doing it ourselves. 

I am looking forward to seeing the pictures of your 5-bar when done.  It will be good to see another one out there finished.


----------



## pgroah (Feb 19, 2011)

Thought I would share some pictures of the progress on my bike, still waiting on the chrome.


----------



## sm2501 (Feb 20, 2011)

pgroah said:


> Thought I would share some pictures of the progress on my bike, still waiting on the chrome.




Who did your paint?


----------



## pgroah (Feb 20, 2011)

I painted it myself.


----------



## 10~18kustoms (Feb 20, 2011)

Nice work, that’s gona be one beautiful bike when you’re finished.


----------



## JRE (Feb 20, 2011)

Very nice. Would love to come check it out in person sometime.


----------



## pgroah (Feb 22, 2011)

I'll give you a call Justin.


----------



## JRE (Feb 22, 2011)

Sounds good. Talk to you soon


----------



## cyclonecoaster.com (Feb 23, 2011)

*Nice 5 bar*

WOW -- the paint looks insane -- good work -- post some pics when she's done -- Nice HD Road King Classic 2010 ?? I have the same bike -- Pewter Pearl like yours


----------



## pgroah (Feb 23, 2011)

Thanks for the comments about the bicycle.  The motorcycle is a 09 Road King Classic.  I bet you get a Lot of riding time in SoCal.  I used to live in Newport Beach, riding season is shorter here in Oregon.  Thanks Paul


----------



## cyclonecoaster.com (Feb 24, 2011)

*Nice weather -- but little time to ride*

Mine is a 09 as well -- 1st 09 sold here in SoCal -- Special ordered it & so did my buddy out here & mine was here 1st -- his took another 3 weeks -- so I made a point of taking it out everyday during that time & just to rub it in a little -- now I ride her once or twice a month -- much less than I want to -- just have a lot on my plate -- have a good one


----------



## pgroah (Feb 24, 2011)

Cool story about getting the Road King. Have you done any mod's?  I put on fat beach bars and a Danny Gray solo seat.  I have managed to get 0ver 7000 miles, a couple of trips to Montana and Wyoming.  You have good taste in Motorcycles.


----------



## aasmitty757 (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm a big Monark 5 bar fan also. Here's a picture of one of mine and a picture of my 09 Deluxe Softail since we are steping on your post with Harleys.


----------



## pgroah (Feb 25, 2011)

*I like your bikes*

I like your 5-bar did you do the restoration?  I almost went with the Deluxe, that is a sweet Motorcycle.


----------



## R1zbear (Feb 25, 2011)

Classicriders said:


> This should also help.
> http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1289.htm




Thanks for the link, to the great site.


----------



## aasmitty757 (Feb 25, 2011)

pgroah said:


> I like your 5-bar did you do the restoration?  I almost went with the Deluxe, that is a sweet Motorcycle.




I can't remember who did the resto on the 5 bar. it was done about 15 years ago. I bought it as pictured. Thanks for the complement on the HOG, I will be on it tomorrow no matter how windy and cold it is, I'm having withdrawal.


----------



## cyclonecoaster.com (Feb 28, 2011)

pgroah said:


> Cool story about getting the Road King. Have you done any mod's?  I put on fat beach bars and a Danny Gray solo seat.  I have managed to get 0ver 7000 miles, a couple of trips to Montana and Wyoming.  You have good taste in Motorcycles.




PM  Sent

 -- I will send you a pic when I can -- love the bike when I have the time -- I just hit 3K --


----------



## pgroah (May 2, 2011)

*finally finished*

I finally fininshed the 5-bar so I thought I would share some pictures.


----------



## Talewinds (May 2, 2011)

Congrats! The 5 Bar with that paint scheme is one of the best looking bikes ever!


----------



## redline1968 (May 2, 2011)

great looking paint and  fab bike..


----------



## JRE (May 2, 2011)

That turned out great. All us Portland area guys should go for a bike ride one of these weekend.


----------



## supper15fiets (May 15, 2011)

very, very ,very,very,very clean and neat looking piece of work!


----------



## fatbike (May 15, 2011)

That is a great bicycle! Excellent paint work! You seemed to really have nailed the scheme well. Great work! Would you consider painting other bikes other than your own? Thanks Derek

And yes Justin, we need to get a local ride in Portland.


----------



## pgroah (May 15, 2011)

Thanks guys I would be up for a ride.


----------



## Freqman1 (Jul 22, 2012)

I thought I would revive this thread since my five bar project just go tnew wind. I'm pretty sure I've locked up a deal on the tank and some other stuff. I will still need some things though like a lighted rear rack, a pair of three rib Deltas, set of fenders, and the truss rod bracket for the headset. I also just got my new copy of the Monark book (thanks Scott!) and am zeroed in on page 39, Model GT495. While most five bars I've seen have the two piece stem the GT495 appears to have a Wald # 3 or something similar. Also the bars look very similar to Schwinn Phantom bars. I can't tell from the pic or description if the Troxel M1 has a chrome chassis or not. So I guess my real questions are: is this a Wald stem, what kind of handlebars should I  be chasing, and should the seat chassis be chrome for this model. BTW I intend to paint the bike cream, black trim, with red pins which, despite how they listed the options would seem to be correct. Thoughts? Also if anyone has any of the parts I need please pm or email to Oldbikeguy1@hotmail.com    Thanks, Shawn


----------



## Andrew Gorman (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm glad you revived this thread too.  I keep thinking about my Monark 5-bar tankless project-
http://s53.photobucket.com/albums/g72/gormanao/?action=view&current=5Bar.jpg
Although at my current build rate it should be back on the road by 2026.


----------



## Freqman1 (Jul 23, 2012)

I was really hoping some of the original contributors to this post would jump in. I really need to get the answers to some of my questions before I move forward. I'm pretty slow too but hoping to get this done within the next couple of years! V/r Shawn


----------



## scrubbinrims (Jul 23, 2012)

Can't help out in the thread as I have never owned this model, but I do remember seeing how nice Paul's restoration was that I asked him if he would paint one of mine.
Paul if you quit your day job, lmk 
Chris


----------



## pgroah (Jul 23, 2012)

I have had a passion for this model. Any help you need if able I will help.  I have a few spare parts and some idea of what it takes for a restoration. I can get stencils for the tank. The frame stripes details can be sourced from nostalgic.net and I can send you photos with details of my girls bike fenders.  Let me know if any of this is helpful.

Paul


----------



## Freqman1 (Jul 24, 2012)

Hey Paul,
      One of the biggest questions I have concerns the finish of the seat chassis--chrome or black? I also still need a set of fenders (not the duckbill fender)  and a lighted rear rack (I have the tailight). Lastly, is the handlebar question. Did some of these have a Wald #3 stem? Thanks, Shawn


----------



## pgroah (Jul 24, 2012)

*5-bar*

The seat is an option as far as i can tell I have seen pictures with many seats, I have a Monark Rocket the prewar bicycle that shared the 5-bar tank with the chrome chassis.  the fenders are not impossible to find, the rack either the bars and stem can vary I have a spare never slip that I will part with the hard part to get is the 7/8 bars to fit the stem, they do come up though I found two.


----------



## Freqman1 (Jul 25, 2012)

Although just about everyone of these I 've seen restored has the two piece stem the bike on Pg 39 of the Monark book appears to have a Wald #3 and a 'long horn' type bar similar to what Schwinn used on the Phantom and others. The tank I'm getting has the original design so I can copy that and I have a girls four bar for the fender designs. One of the small parts I need is the headset truss bracket. If anyone has a set of fenders or a rear rack that takes the light please let me know. Examples can be seen earlier in this post on Paul's bike. I am also hunting two three rib Delta frontloaders as I want to go with the dual headlight set-up. Lastly, as I said before I plan on going with white/cream? with black and red pins. I could really use a paint code for the white/cream color. I'm not sure if red pins are correct or if they would have been another color so advice is sought on this as well. V/r Shawn


----------



## Freqman1 (Jul 25, 2012)

Here are the bars and stem I'm talking about which look to be original to this bike.... http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?5626-Monark-5-bar&highlight=monark


----------



## pgroah (Jul 25, 2012)

*5-bar*

I have a spare truss plate the bars and propper screws can be hard to find. Let me know if you need any parts..


----------



## Freqman1 (Jul 26, 2012)

Yep I need'm--PM sent. Thanks, Shawn


----------



## Freqman1 (Aug 6, 2012)

Still hunting parts--need:
Headset
Trussrods, bolts, top bracket
fenders/braces
rack that takes a light
pair of delta ribbed headlights
seat--Bob???
no slip stem
handlebars

Thanks, Shawn


----------



## crazycrawler (Sep 15, 2013)

*Beautifull Bike*



pgroah said:


> I have had a passion for this model. Any help you need if able I will help.  I have a few spare parts and some idea of what it takes for a restoration. I can get stencils for the tank. The frame stripes details can be sourced from nostalgic.net and I can send you photos with details of my girls bike fenders.  Let me know if any of this is helpful.
> 
> Paul




Hello, in my opinion this is one of the best looking balloon tire bike ever produced, the tank looks right, graphics and paint scheme are very very artistic. I am also restoring this same model and just had JAF/CO (Jim F.) make me a fiberglass tank copy. I am looking for stencils for this tank. Any help would be trully appreciated.

Ed


----------



## Freqman1 (Sep 15, 2013)

crazycrawler said:


> Hello, in my opinion this is one of the best looking balloon tire bike ever produced, the tank looks right, graphics and paint scheme are very very artistic. I am also restoring this same model and just had JAF/CO (Jim F.) make me a fiberglass tank copy. I am looking for stencils for this tank. Any help would be trully appreciated.
> 
> Ed




I kinda like this model too. I don't have stencils made up but could probably send a tracing off one of my tanks. V/r Shawn


----------

