# Paramount Rear Deraileur Question



## kodyind (Mar 31, 2015)

I have a 1972 paramount p15 and I think the rear derailleur is not the original one it can with from Schwinn  so can someone tell me what campy derailleur should be on it

thanks
jim


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## bikecrazy (Mar 31, 2015)

P15-9 Paramounts did not come with a Campy derailleur.They came with a Schwinn approved Gt300 La Tour made by Shimano.


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## Metacortex (Mar 31, 2015)

In '72 the Paramount P15 came with a Campagnolo Gran Turismo rear derailleur. You can see an original bike with one in the topic here: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1000321-1972-chrome-schwinn-paramount-p15-9-a.html

One possible exception may be those P15s within the last ~600 or so '72 Paramounts produced, since a late '72 cargo handler strike caused them to be carried over to be built in '73 and the P15 changed to the Schwinn Approved GT-300 Le Tour for '73 and later. See the following post (in that same topic) for more details: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...e-schwinn-paramount-p15-9-a.html#post17668663


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## kodyind (Apr 1, 2015)

thanks for the info the Gran Turismo  is what I have on the bike so it is the correct one , do you know where I can get some spokes for it

Jim



Metacortex said:


> In '72 the Paramount P15 came with a Campagnolo Gran Turismo rear derailleur. You can see an original bike with one in the topic here: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1000321-1972-chrome-schwinn-paramount-p15-9-a.html
> 
> One possible exception may be those P15s within the last ~600 or so '72 Paramounts produced, since a late '72 cargo handler strike caused them to be carried over to be built in '73 and the P15 changed to the Schwinn Approved GT-300 Le Tour for '73 and later. See the following post (in that same topic) for more details: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...e-schwinn-paramount-p15-9-a.html#post17668663


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## Metacortex (Apr 1, 2015)

kodyind said:


> do you know where I can get some spokes for it




To answer that I'd need to know exactly what is on there now. What hub and rim? Laced 4x or 3x? Are the spokes stainless, chrome or cadmium plated? And finally, what spoke brand/mfr.? To answer that last one, compare the heads of the existing spokes to the chart here and let me know what matches up: http://www.mrrabbit.net/docs/spokeheads/main.html

Pics of the hub, rim stampings/labels and spoke heads would be helpful as well.


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## rhenning (Apr 1, 2015)

In the for what is worth my Jan 1974 P10-9 came woth a Campy Rally rear derailleur on it.  Now has a Crane GS on it because I thought it would be nice to be able to shift it properly.  The Crane GS later had the name LeTour on it when sold to Schwinn.  Much better derailleur than the Campy junk that came on the bike.  Roger


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## Metacortex (Apr 1, 2015)

rhenning said:


> In the for what is worth my Jan 1974 P10-9 came woth a Campy Rally rear derailleur on it.




I'm sure you know this but the Rally was a replacement, the original derailleur on a '74 P10 would have been a Nuovo Record. Those Rallys do sell for quite a bit now: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=campagnolo+rally&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1


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## rhenning (Apr 2, 2015)

Metacotex I think it is very hard to say what came as original equipment on Paramounts as they were bascially custom built bikes.  I bought mine from the original owner who bought it from Bens Cycle in Milwaukee WI.  The order list for Paramounts was very long with lots of places for options or deletions.  Paramounts are not the same world as say a Varsity where your choice was 3 colors and maybe 2 or 3 frame sizes.  You told me I was wrong about my having a 1977 Sprint and then said later it was okay because you found one yourself.  The catalogs and order books are a guide but not a bible on Schwinns in the 1970s.  Roger


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## highwheel431 (Apr 2, 2015)

*Spoke count*

Jim,

Don't know what wheels you actually have on our Paramount but I do have NOS Paramount Chrome plated spokes in the original boxes.  I have both 12 1/16" and 12 1/8" part numbers 84200 and 84202 respectively.  I'm not sure if these are full boxes of 100.  One has more then 100 and the other less.  So it looks like they might have been opened and mixed.  I will have to sort them for an accurate count.  I will not sell less then the complete group of either size.  Cost will be $3.50/spoke so roughly in the $350 range for a box of 100.

Update 100 12 1/8 $350
77 12 1/16 $265



kodyind said:


> thanks for the info the Gran Turismo  is what I have on the bike so it is the correct one , do you know where I can get some spokes for it
> 
> Jim[/QUOTE


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## Metacortex (Apr 2, 2015)

rhenning said:


> Metacotex I think it is very hard to say what came as original equipment on Paramounts as they were bascially custom built bikes.  I bought mine from the original owner who bought it from Bens Cycle in Milwaukee WI.  The order list for Paramounts was very long with lots of places for options or deletions.




Paramounts were available with custom-built frames but the other options were relatively fixed and specific. For example there were no options for different derailleurs, which were chosen by Schwinn for specific models based mainly on the different gear ranges (P10 vs. P15 for example). In fact for that very reason it would not have made sense to install a wide-range Rally on a P10 since the original narrow-range gearing didn't need it (and if it did as on the P15 they would have installed the GT-300). There were limited options on the P10 for cogs or chainrings, but only within what the specific derailleur for that model (Nuovo Record) could accommodate. 

For reference you can see the '73 Paramount order form here: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...n-paramount-brake-info-pics.html#post14713610

Note on the order form where it states: Only the options listed in this order form can be supplied as stated for each model. If an option is not listed under a certain model, that option is not available for that model.

All of this means that your Rally almost certainly had to be installed by the dealer or previous owner. It was quite common for Paramounts to be customized by dealers or owners at the time, which is one reason truly original ones are so hard to come by. If the dealer or previous owner installed a Rally I would assume they had also changed the rear cogs to something with a wider range than the 14-26T (standard) or 14-24T (optional) cogs (and/or perhaps a triple crankset) since otherwise the change from Nuovo Record to Rally (or GT-300) derailleur would not have been necessary or even desirable.



> You told me I was wrong about my having a 1977 Sprint and then said later it was okay because you found one yourself.  The catalogs and order books are a guide but not a bible on Schwinns in the 1970s.




Roger I have learned an incredible amount since then! The consumer catalogs are a guide that may not always be accurate, however other internal or dealer-only resources I've collected like the monthly Reporter newsletters, weekly News Flash bulletins, service bulletins, etc. tell a more detailed and in-depth story. All of that plus documenting hundreds of individual bikes have told me quite a bit. 

For example there were numerous News Flash bulletins in '73 and '74 concerning Paramounts, which were on allocation and even back order due to that being the peak of the bike boom. In order to keep up with demand options such as full-chrome frames and stand-alone framesets were discontinued. Several bulletins advised dealers not to make order changes and that custom frames would cause further delays. One bulletin indicated that a substantial number of '73 Paramount orders would be carried over into '74 production (the same thing happened in '72/'73). With orders taking 6 months or more to fulfill a dealer would get their hands on any Paramount they could, then customize it to suit what the customer wanted so they didn't have to wait until next year to get it!

Other bulletins covered the the no-longer mysterious '76 and '77 Sprints - detailing the colors, equipment, pricing and even how many were to be available (only 1,500). This type of insider information available only to dealers at the time tells a much deeper, more detailed and accurate story than just the catalogs.


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## bikecrazy (Apr 2, 2015)

When did the 700 wheels start showing up on Paramounts?


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## Metacortex (Apr 2, 2015)

bikecrazy said:


> When did the 700 wheels start showing up on Paramounts?




I believe that was 1971 on the P13-9 (v2 http://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_schwinnparamount_models.html


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## highwheel431 (Apr 2, 2015)

Other bulletins covered the the no-longer mysterious '76 and '77 Sprints - detailing the colors, equipment, pricing and even how many were to be available (only 1,500). This type of insider information available only to dealers at the time tells a much deeper, more detailed and accurate story than just the catalogs.[/QUOTE]

I own F74163 one of the first two Sprint Paramount's made with Reynolds 531 seat tubes.  Prior to that all of the prototypes used 4130 CO-MO.  Mine is a custom P-13 and was built for me in 74.  I was working for Rudy Schwinn at the time in Product Engineering.  This was the first "production" assembled Sprint Paramount and I picked it up from the Paramount assembly room on July 3rd.  The frame was brazed by Don Mainland in Kenosha.  Don developed the tooling for bending the the seat tubes.  As you can see some times it only took a few weeks from start to finish.


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## Metacortex (Apr 2, 2015)

highwheel431 said:


> I own F74163 one of the first two Sprint Paramount's made with Reynolds 531 seat tubes.  Prior to that all of the prototypes used 4130 CO-MO.  Mine is a custom P-13 and was built for me in 74.  I was working for Rudy Schwinn at the time in Product Engineering.  This was the first "production" assembled Sprint Paramount and I picked it up from the Paramount assembly room on July 3rd.




Thanks for posting that information! I had seen this post you made previously with a pic of that bike, I liked it so much I saved the pic: http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...nts-at-the-Ann-Arbor-Show&p=329769#post329769

Now that I think about those Sprint Paramounts I'm amazed they were able to build them using the full Reynolds 531 tubeset. I'd love to hear any more details you would like to share.



> The frame was brazed by Don Mainland in Kenosha.  Don developed the tooling for bending the the seat tubes.  As you can see some times it only took a few weeks from start to finish.




Very interesting, I knew about Don Mainland helping out with Paramount frame production and especially doing chrome frames but had no idea he did these as well. From what you say about the tooling would it be safe to assume all of the Sprint Paramounts done by Don Mainland?


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## rhenning (Apr 3, 2015)

Metacortex other slight mods on my bike were it came with Campy Record brakes which were dealer installed using drop bolts and the bike had an up charge of $30 for them.  The was the only additional cost on the original price sheet.  It also has a 44 tooth small sprocket on the Record cranks which was an option.  It also has the 26 tooth low gear.  I think that is part of the reason this bike had the Rally on it.  The original price sheet said  "1974 P10-9 for $495 + $30 for Campy side pull brakes".  Total cost was $525.  The only way to know for sure on these bikes is to pay the research fee to Richard Schwinn at Waterford and get a pedigree. They have most of the records.   For what it worth he has seen my bike and says he thought it was built the way I got it.  The bike was also signed by Richard and his brother Eddie when I had it at the Waterford factory.  Roger


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## Metacortex (Apr 3, 2015)

rhenning said:


> Metacortex other slight mods on my bike were it came with Campy Record brakes which were dealer installed using drop bolts and the bike had an up charge of $30 for them.  The was the only additional cost on the original price sheet.




The Rally and Nuovo Record were about the same price back then so they probably did it as an even swap, unless it was changed sometime later. They got a great deal on the Campy brakes, those were supposed to be a $50 up charge back then.



> It also has a 44 tooth small sprocket on the Record cranks which was an option.  It also has the 26 tooth low gear.  I think that is part of the reason this bike had the Rally on it.




14-26T cogs and 49-52 chainrings were standard and 14-24T cogs and 42-52T chainrings were optional, and those components worked within the Nuovo Record capacity. Are you sure your small ring isn't 42T?



> The original price sheet said  "1974 P10-9 for $495 + $30 for Campy side pull brakes".  Total cost was $525.  The only way to know for sure on these bikes is to pay the research fee to Richard Schwinn at Waterford and get a pedigree. They have most of the records.   For what it worth he has seen my bike and says he thought it was biuilt the way I got it.  The bike was also signed by Richard and his brother Eddie when I had it at the Waterford factory.  Roger




I would get that report if it were mine, it would not only inform but also enhance the value. I think that is pretty cool you had it signed!


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## vincev (Apr 3, 2015)

Didnt all have Campy.bikecrazy is correct.


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## rhenning (Apr 3, 2015)

I  think the 42 tooth chain ring is very rare because the Campy cranks has such a large bolt circle of 135 mm instead of 130 most other manufacturers used.  I think that is why it is a 44 and I just counted the teeth to be sure.  Some place I have photo of the autographs and if I remember I will look for it and post it.  Roger


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## Metacortex (Apr 3, 2015)

Roger I'd love to see that!


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## rhenning (Apr 4, 2015)

Not the best of photos but the first 2 are of Richards name and the last 2 are of Edwards.  Roger


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