# King size production numbers



## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 19, 2021)

I have a couple KSHD bikes they may be my favorite middleweights. We often talk about rarity with bikes and a lot of time the word gets used incorrectly. These bikes I'm starting to see are exactly that, rare. I'm trying to get an rough idea of what amount were made. There are lots of rare bikes out there some based on color (black stingray), components (5 speed corvettes). But in this case the frame itself is different lending to  a whole different level to its rarity. The KS registry now stands at just under 50 bikes. Considering the amount of bikes Schwinn produced through the years '61/'65 which these bikes are, it is crazy to think how few have surfaced. I'm sure plenty of them were sold to factories and commercial  accounts and never put in a basement or garage just disposed of at some point. But not enough to offset the rarity of the frame. Is there any way we could come up with an estimation of how many were produced. Many  other rare bikes can be copied or produced with existing parts and often it is hard to tell if they are original. This is not the case with the KS no way to fake it. Though not a high priced rare bike I tend to believe they are trending up quickly, certainly on this site. Lets try and work together on this one, the infighting among the Schwinn crowd is getting depressing. I just want these bikes to get the props they deserve as a truly rare bike. Thanks CBJ


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## Xlobsterman (Dec 19, 2021)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> I have a couple KSHD bikes they may be my favorite middleweights. We often talk about rarity with bikes and a lot of time the word gets used incorrectly. These bikes I'm starting to see are exactly that, rare. I'm trying to get an rough idea of what amount were made. There are lots of rare bikes out there some based on color (black stingray), components (5 speed corvettes). But in this case the frame itself is different lending to  a whole different level to its rarity. The KS registry now stands at just under 50 bikes. Considering the amount of bikes Schwinn produced through the years '61/'65 which these bikes are, it is crazy to think how few have surfaced. I'm sure plenty of them were sold to factories and commercial  accounts and never put in a basement or garage just disposed of at some point. But not enough to offset the rarity of the frame. Is there any way we could come up with an estimation of how many were produced. Many  other rare bikes can be copied or produced with existing parts and often it is hard to tell if they are original. This is not the case with the KS no way to fake it. Though not a high priced rare bike I tend to believe they are trending up quickly, certainly on this site. Lets try and work together on this one, the infighting among the Schwinn crowd is getting depressing. I just want these bikes to get the props they deserve as a truly rare bike. Thanks CBJ




Here are my thoughts, and opinion on the topic.

The basic HD model in itself was not a bike marketed towards the general consumer, but more so to the commercial/industrial market. And I would assume the King Sized frames were not a huge volume sale for the few years they were made, and that would lead to the rarity of that particular model. The King Sized frame was long gone in the years I was working in the shop. But I would say 90% of our sales of these HD bikes went to commercial accounts in the late 70's & early 80's. And when these bikes were no longer needed, I would assume they were just thrown in the dumpster, or a scrap pile? The other 10% were sold to people wanting a cruiser at that time, but wanted a bike with fenders.

I would say there is no real way to "Estimate" the number of the KSHD bikes that were sold. But I would be inclined to say there may be some accurate sales records out there that may lend to the total amount of the bikes Schwinn sold to its dealers. We just need for someone to dig up that info.........

As for the infighting, I just recently blocked a couple of members I was having harassment issues with. So that problem is now solved for me!


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 19, 2021)

Couple things, These not being high volume items do you think they were complete partially assembled shipped from the factory to dealers? Or maybe bulk frames shipped to warehouses around the country waiting to be assembled? Or maybe a hard sell sitting in shops possibly a couple years?


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 20, 2021)

I know that a lot of HD bikes were for commercial use and never made it to the general public. The oddity of the larger frame was so different from the millions of MW bikes sold I can not believe that they would have produced them and had them sitting around. I would think they were assembled soon after production at factory  shipped to dealers and sold directly  to corporations and factories. I'm finding it hard to believe they were produced in large numbers like the other MW bikes.The fact they they were low production numbers and many were used in settings where they were disposed of and not hung in a barn for later use makes for a low number of available bikes. I know that rarity does not equal value or collect ability. I'm holding on to the couple I have knowing that the interest in these will someday be what they deserve as a truly "rare " bike


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 20, 2021)

I've wanted one of these for a few years, but they sell fast and I just kept missing them.

But sit back and you'll see where I'm going with this.

Back when I first started working/driving I would drive past this industrial park. There was a large building with a different architecture that stood out. Later in the 80's I worked in this park, still drive by it often so the picture is in my head. Recently picked up a copy of American Bicyclist from 1965. Flip in a couple pages and here is that warehouse. Its not just a warehouse, its a Schwinn warehouse. I've driven by it thousands of times.. never knew. In my small little world growing up there was 7 Schwinn shops within about 8 miles south of it. I don't know how many dealers it served or if dealers had to only receive through it or could buy direct from Schwinn?.

Lot has been going on here, want to move toys have been being sold and I really shouldn't be bringing anything in. LOL But I've wanted one of these and was going to be picky as there is something specific I am looking for. Really don't want to buy collect or flip, really don't have the time or room.

Well I came across one. Original owner and has no idea where or what the SN is. Seller says its a 64, got it for Christmas in 64... sure of it. I go and look at it and its a C2 SN and it has chrome fenders. I have seen other 62's in the KS thread with chrome fenders but the American model didn't have chrome fenders in 62. I think the chrome fenders started in 63.

So here is a bike that sat for 2.5 years somewhere has chrome fenders, others from then that have chrome fenders... Were they custom orders, dealer installed, dealer built or built at a later date? IDK, but there was a large facility in this area that had a stock pile of parts.

I could be totally out to lunch with this, just thinking out loud.


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## Xlobsterman (Dec 22, 2021)

Rusty Klunker said:


> I've wanted one of these for a few years, but they sell fast and I just kept missing them.
> 
> But sit back and you'll see where I'm going with this.
> 
> ...




The serial numbers on the older frames are indicative as to when the frame was made, and not when the bike came off the assembly line as a complete bike. It is only used as guestimate when dating the model year of the bike. You need to look at the sum of the whole when dating the older bikes, since they never used the head badge dating code that was created in the mid 70's.


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 22, 2021)

Xlobsterman said:


> The serial numbers on the older frames are indicative as to when the frame was made, and not when the bike came off the assembly line as a complete bike. It is only used as guestimate when dating the model year of the bike. You need to look at the sum of the whole when dating the older bikes, since they never used the head badge dating code that was created in the mid 70's.



True, but to sit 2.5 years? That's the longest I've heard till.... well I don't know when it was actually built. I saw people question the chrome fenders on the 62 KS in the KS thread, but these are 60 year old bikes anything could have been swapped.

I did pull the front wheel off tonight and noticed an 11-3 on the fork. Cant make out whats on the front hub its just pitted enough not to read. Kinda looks like it might say Schwinn around it. Its not bad and should clean up nicely.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 23, 2021)

Rusty Klunker said:


> 11-3 on the fork



I find it hard to believe that there was any lag with the use of the fork. No other bike used this fork. They would not have had an over abundance of these sitting waiting to get used. But a 11/3 would lead me to believe it was used on a 1964 model. To short of a turn around for a 1963. I could be wrong  (a not often enough used phrase)


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 23, 2021)

Well, I had talked to this man selling the bike and he said he got it for Christmas in 64... talked about it remembered the day well. I went to see the bike, leaned it over and saw a C2 SN. I said its a 62, but he was sure he got in 64. Before Randall posted I was getting curious what the fork numbers were and was expecting to see 62 forks. I was surprised to see a Nov 63 fork but that's still a year before it was bought.
_It gets better._
Pulled the crank today and its a 64 crank. Anything else I can date?
So you tell me. The bikes complete looks all original except tires. Most of the paint is there and with shine to it. Crank doesn't look like it was ever messed with, bearings were a little dry.


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 23, 2021)

Pics


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 23, 2021)

Rusty Klunker said:


> Pics
> 
> View attachment 1532660
> 
> ...



The drop outs are the same as all bikes and I guess that part sat unused until November when they made the fork. The  bike could have been built then and sat  in a showroom for a year before the guy got it for Christmas. Like others have stated they were often commercial use and  not a big seller to the retail buyer. Who really knows what they were doing back then.


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## Dizzle Problems (Dec 25, 2021)

As mentioned, the fork is specific to the frame, as the steerer is much longer. But so is the rear fender. The mounting is different to accommodate the larger frame. So, a fender swap at dealer is unlikely.

I know the initial post mentions KSHD, and as said, it is likely a fair amount ended up in industrial applications. But the KS American that was also available would have theoretically been available on sales floors nation wide. 
I will say, the HD frame I previously had was pretty well beat. Where as the American I have that came from the original owner is in pretty cherry shape. 

I think part of the scarcity is simply people have no idea they have a Schwinn that’s any different from a standard middle weight. (Think outside of enthusiast.) But that isn’t to say they aren’t rare.  I was at my local co-op and a guy rode up on a king size American. After trying to buy it off him, and him declining several times, I told him more info about his bike. He had absolutely no idea. And I also know of a few being found for sale with no mention of them being king size.

Although exactly how many where made may never be known. Based on the information we have, dates produced, serial numbers. Estimates can be made, I suppose.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 25, 2021)

Dizzle Problems said:


> I think part of the scarcity is simply people have no idea they have a Schwinn that’s any different from a standard middle weight.



That is a great point. As far as them being used for commercial use, do you think that would account for a very large number of bikes? I'm just trying to gauge an idea of total numbers. I would think the total number would not be nearly as large as other models. Regardless of numbers they are still '60s middle weights and their value is what it is. I enjoying things that are one off or rare, I have a couple rare bikes and they are worth no more then any other bikes of the time. Schwinn oddities like all Schwinn bikes seem to carry a higher value or status weather deserved or not. I prefer the bigger frame makes for a very comfortable ride in my case. I wish some more lurking guests on the site would join and add to the list or at least take a second look at the HD in their garage. Then promptly PM me when they want to sell haha


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## irideiam (Dec 25, 2021)

Xlobsterman said:


> The serial numbers on the older frames are indicative as to when the frame was made, and not when the bike came off the assembly line as a complete bike. It is only used as guestimate when dating the model year of the bike. You need to look at the sum of the whole when dating the older bikes, since they never used the head badge dating code that was created in the mid 70's.



Agree, cool info guys, I started the registry a few years ago to get an idea what was out their in the collector world, and to get Cabers to start looking for them, and it has proven that they are rare in terms of survivors. As far as the number produced I agree the only true way to know is factory records. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Dec 25, 2021)

irideiam said:


> Agree, cool info guys, I started the registry a few years ago to get an idea what was out their in the collector world, and it has proven that they are rare in terms of survivors. As far as the number produced I agree the only true way to know is factory records.



I do not mind being in such an exclusive club haha


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 25, 2021)

Afternoon and happy holidays to all!

All good info but, how do I explain this bike? I know SN enough that I don't need to look them up its simple. I wasn't going to debate it with the seller he was sure. The fenders were in question to me then found out about the local warehouse (it might have taken care of the whole east coast for all I know). This thread started and I thought I would dig into things. I really expected the forks to be 62 forks not end of year 63. Thought maybe they might have been bent and replaced but after pulling the crank and seeing 64 the story is sounding real. Nothing else is KS specific but is anything else dated? I usually don't dig into dates this much just the year of the frame.
These bikes are harder to find and parts harder still. To find a matching color frame, fork and chainguard at a later time I think would be hard to do.

Did these bikes even come down the line? Or were they special order dealer built bikes like later cruisers? IDK


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## Xlobsterman (Dec 25, 2021)

Rusty Klunker said:


> Afternoon and happy holidays to all!
> 
> All good info but, how do I explain this bike? I know SN enough that I don't need to look them up its simple. I wasn't going to debate it with the seller he was sure. The fenders were in question to me then found out about the local warehouse (it might have taken care of the whole east coast for all I know). This thread started and I thought I would dig into things. I really expected the forks to be 62 forks not end of year 63. Thought maybe they might have been bent and replaced but after pulling the crank and seeing 64 the story is sounding real. Nothing else is KS specific but is anything else dated? I usually don't dig into dates this much just the year of the frame.
> These bikes are harder to find and parts harder still. To find a matching color frame, fork and chainguard at a later time I think would be hard to do.
> ...




Maybe post a few pics of the complete bike you are referencing? As they say..........a picture is worth a 1000 words! Lots of things can happen to a bike over its 50+ years of existence.


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 25, 2021)

As for them out in the industrial world, Ive worked at mobil oil Paulsboro, Texaco eagle point, Sunoco Philly, Dupont, GM boxwood rd, Chrysler Willimington, Yeah bikes were everywhere. The refineries had lots of bikes locked up in racks rusting away for decades. I know some were Schwinns but don't know the models didn't know a KS existed.


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 25, 2021)

1963-1965 Schwinn American King Size | All Things Schwinn
					

1964 King Size American . Anyone interested? Make an offer. I’ve been storing it since 1972 when I got a Schwinn Varsity 10 speed




					thecabe.com
				




Bikes not with me at the moment but this is the bike and the other partial pictures earlier.


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 25, 2021)

Something I'm just noticing is the chainguard. Did all the Americans have that same paint scheme or were they different through the years?


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 25, 2021)

Xlobsterman said:


> Maybe post a few pics of the complete bike you are referencing? As they say..........a picture is worth a 1000 words! Lots of things can happen to a bike over its 50+ years of existence.




Well, just found out it has a twin in the KS thread.


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## GTs58 (Dec 25, 2021)

Rusty Klunker said:


> Something I'm just noticing is the chainguard. Did all the Americans have that same paint scheme or were they different through the years?



 Looks like there was a slight change on the chain guard detailing with the 64's missing the badge below the name.


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## Rusty Klunker (Dec 26, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> Looks like there was a slight change on the chain guard detailing with the 64's missing the badge below the name.




I was thinking it was the underlining stripe, but I believe you are right its the badge.


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