# Small Forebrake Introduction



## Freqman1 (Jan 27, 2020)

My question here is when, exactly, was the small Forebrake introduced? The catalogs don't show these brakes showing up until the '40 year but several people have told me that both the front (both high and low flange) and rear brakes were introduced sometime in '39. Does anyone have any dealer or trade literature showing exactly when these were introduced? V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday (Jan 27, 2020)

They were 1940 issue, but the new 1940 components were being installed on bikes by late 39.
That original as found, two tone blue, Super Deluxe  Autocycle I used to have, had a 39 serial number and a 39 dated crank arm, but all of the other components on it were the new 1940 issue stuff.


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## kenny_hungus (Jan 27, 2020)

1940....1940 ..1940....EVEN IF THAT 40 SUPER DELUXE HAD A 39 SERIAL NUMBER .....IT WAS BEING BUILT AS A 1940....AS ALL THE COMPONENTS WERE 1940.....THE SCHOLAR WAS THERE BIDDING ON THAT BIKE WHEN IT CAME UP FOR SALE IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS....SO 1940.....END OF STORY!!!!!


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## kenny_hungus (Jan 27, 2020)

THE ORIGINAL FOREWHEEL BRAKE WAS INTRODUCED IN 1937 AND USED THROUGH 1939.....AND THEN IN 1940 ...THE NEW EXPANDER BRAKES WERE INTRODUCED....HIGH AND LOW FLANGE!!!!!


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## Freqman1 (Jan 27, 2020)

It appears there is disagreement on this topic which is why I asked if anyone had any literature that could substantiate one way or the other. Let me throw this out there and see what you "in the know" think. V/r Shawn

*Brake**Lever**Cable*1937-1939 Large drum original style no rear brakeSo called 'shorty' pressed steelBlack cloth covered, ball clevis1940 Revised smaller drum. Front in both High and low flange configuration. Rear brake introduced. Barrell marked "Pat'd Pending".So called 'Webb' pressed steelSilver/gold coated, ball clevis1941 Same as 1940 except no "Pat'd Pending"solid steel no scriptBlack plastic, ball clevis1946-1960* Front same as prewar high flange rear same as prewar
* Schwinn Fair Trade sheets last list rear expander in 1954 and front in 1960 solid steel "Schwinn" script-no difference in right and left levers.Black plastic, pinch clevis


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## kenny_hungus (Jan 27, 2020)

Some of what you posted is right and some of this is wrong.....209 850 0173  Tedd Turner.....THE PREWAR SCHWINN SCHOLAR!!!!!


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 27, 2020)

"As found" and "as sold" - these are not always the same. I think it's just as likely the kid ordered up a new set of wheels for his amazing blue/blue 39 after he saw the 40 catalog. So many of the vintage photos show these bikes modified in all sorts of ways, but when we find them somehow it's an archaeological discovery untouched since the machine's creation at the factory and worthy of building into a huge pile of assumptions and folklore.

"All the components were the new 1940..." - like what? The wheelset/levers that could have been added later? The chainring? Not much difference between a 39 and 40 deluxe except the chainring, typical rear fender strut placement shown but not always followed for each year, and available optional drum brakes. Although I would argue you could still easily get the earlier big drum on your 40 if you wanted it that way. 

@Freqman1 - pat pending was 41 too. 41 cables were like 40 and not plastic. The Webb lever shows up in mid-38 on lightweights and 39 on ballooners, same with the dural rear brake, early short levers still used into 39 as well as the Webb on front only, Webb "always" used for rear dural drum. Some overlap on what was used, not a black and white/stop and start situation.


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## kenny_hungus (Jan 27, 2020)

OH BOY.....THE SCHOLAR IS DONE...…………………….GOODBYE!!!!!!!


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## cyclingday (Jan 27, 2020)

What do you think, Clark?


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## kenny_hungus (Jan 27, 2020)

Marty …...I am done wasting my time...….IM GOING TO WALLY WORLD!!!!!!!


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## fordmike65 (Jan 27, 2020)

Autocycleplane said:


> "As found" and "as sold" - these are not always the same. I think it's just as likely the kid ordered up a new set of wheels for his amazing blue/blue 39 after he saw the 40 catalog. So many of the vintage photos show these bikes modified in all sorts of ways, but when we find them somehow it's an archaeological discovery untouched since the machine's creation at the factory and worthy of building into a huge pile of assumptions and folklore.




Kinda like a guy riding his '35 Colson lightweight past a bike shop in '37...stops dead in his tracks and exclaims "I need one of those!"...pointing at the newly released forebrake on a Schwinn "full-boogie" Motorbike?


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## John G04 (Jan 27, 2020)

fordmike65 said:


> Kinda like a guy riding his '35 Colson lightweight past a bike shop in '37...stops dead in his tracks and exclaims "I need one of those!"...pointing at the newly released forebrake on a Schwinn "full-boogie" Motorbike?
> View attachment 1130884




Looks like you have a hub and lever to build a bike around


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 27, 2020)

John G04 said:


> Looks like you have a hub and lever to build a bike around




 I've tried getting him to let go of that setup since before he opened up the box! Ain't gonna happen, he's wisely leaving them where they belong - on that Colson.


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## mr.cycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

Not to get off topic here but I want to make comment on my observations of the brake cable itself in reference to Shawn's chart above. These are strictly 'my observations' over many years. Remember-opinions vary. My observations on the 1937-39 brake use a thick(maybe close to 5mm diameter)pale gold color-cloth covered cable. The cable has an almost varnished/shellac look to it and has a tendency to crack and flake over time- this due to its routing on the bike. These just do not hold up well. I have had n.o.s. cables and they are definitely a pale gold color. Some claim there is a silver cable-I have seen these too but most seem to be a Sturmey archer cable of that period. (Close examination/simularities of both cables and one might think that Sturmey made these for Schwinn!) I will say that I have seen the pale gold cables when 'cleaned' or in places where it is scuffed-it does at times have a silver color to it(maybe faded). Again most have the pale gold color throughout the entire length of the cable. In about 1940 the cable was reduced in diameter to about 3.5mm but retained the pale gold color. Again these are plagued with the same cracking and chaffing the previous cables have. I am not well versed on postwar Schwinn's but have observed that immediate postwar up to and including the first phantoms the brake cable was a black cloth covered cable the same size as the '1940' version(approx. 3.5mm diameter). I imagine that sometime in the early 1950's they went to a plastic/nylon housing-which now seems to be the industry standard. Also of note and there are always these anomalies- there have been thicker cables on slightly later bikes and black cloth/postwar cables found on prewar bikes-after all replacements were available-so be mindful when you see a bike with something slightly different-I am only talking mainstream and basic/general observations. Also I have not touched on the subject of the cable ends(at the lever or at the brake arm)-whether it be the plumb or the barrel type but this has been a direct result of the type handle/lever design that was being used. Remember these are only one persons observations.


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

mr.cycleplane said:


> Not to get off topic here but I want to make comment on my observations of the brake cable itself in reference to Shawn's chart above. These are strictly 'my observations' over many years. Remember-opinions vary. My observations on the 1937-39 brake use a thick(maybe close to 5mm diameter)pale gold color-cloth covered cable. The cable has an almost varnished/shellac look to it and has a tendency to crack and flake over time- this due to its routing on the bike. These just do not hold up well. I have had n.o.s. cables and they are definitely a pale gold color. Some claim there is a silver cable-I have seen these too but most seem to be a Sturmey archer cable of that period. (Close examination/simularities of both cables and one might think that Sturmey made these for Schwinn!) I will say that I have seen the pale gold cables when 'cleaned' or in places where it is scuffed-it does at times have a silver color to it(maybe faded). Again most have the pale gold color throughout the entire length of the cable. In about 1940 the cable was reduced in diameter to about 3.5mm but retained the pale gold color. Again these are plagued with the same cracking and chaffing the previous cables have. I am not well versed on postwar Schwinn's but have observed that immediate postwar up to and including the first phantoms the brake cable was a black cloth covered cable the same size as the '1940' version(approx. 3.5mm diameter). I imagine that sometime in the early 1950's they went to a plastic/nylon housing-which now seems to be the industry standard. Also of note and there are always these anomalies- there have been thicker cables on slightly later bikes and black cloth/postwar cables found on prewar bikes-after all replacements were available-so be mindful when you see a bike with something slightly different-I am only talking mainstream and basic/general observations. Also I have not touched on the subject of the cable ends(at the lever or at the brake arm)-whether it be the plumb or the barrel type but this has been a direct result of the type handle/lever design that was being used. Remember these are only one persons observations.




"Some claim". I think you are pretty much wrong about everything you just said. Just my opinion, you have yours of course. We can agree to disagree as we often do and still be friends.

Let's nerd out some more about cables:

The standard 40-41 cables (Webb and Skinny lever variants) were absolutely silver, not gold, and the similar fat size as the earlier black cables - I have 2 originals (one Webb and one skinny) and many more examples in photos. They can appear gold until you clean the nicotine/pollution off of them, the coating seems to attract everything to it. There are some slight differences in the Webb vs skinny lever housing comparing them side by side, very minimal but both are definitely silver when new or cleaned up.

The original 37-? cables were definitely black, no question about it. They certainly may have switched to the so called "gold" color at some point after 38 and before 40 but I think those could really be aged silver and the replacement cables seen in the 40 parts catalog. If you needed a complete replacement cable for your 37 lever and hub in 1940 then you got silver housing with the appropriate cable ends for your setup - the part number for the bare housing is the same in the parts catalog regardless of application. Cables are wear items like tires and eventually need servicing or replacement - "as found" is not always "as sold".

There definitely could have been an actual gold/tan cable housing used between the black and silver around 39ish - I'm skeptical yet open to it because I've never had one to examine for myself.

The skinny silver/gold housing you are referring to as coming around in 1940 - I see that used mostly on lightweight bikes and can be converted to look the part for the drum setup like the one I did for Gary's maroon deluxe. Maybe this housing got used on some drum applications too but I don't believe that was the standard issue for ballooners given all the examples out there showing otherwise. I do think this could also be the same housing used on early postwar drum applications but that is just a wild guess based on foggy memory and limited experience.

The complete original Webb lever cable I have ('40 and silver) actually used solid wire not a cable inside, with the cable ends attached mechanically not really soldered/swaged. It was useless that way due to friction, I replaced it with a fabbed inner cable and it works like a champ now. The original 41 style cable I have uses an actual cable inside.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 28, 2020)

mr.cycleplane said:


> Not to get off topic here but I want to make comment on my observations of the brake cable itself in reference to Shawn's chart above. These are strictly 'my observations' over many years. Remember-opinions vary. My observations on the 1937-39 brake use a thick(maybe close to 5mm diameter)pale gold color-cloth covered cable. The cable has an almost varnished/shellac look to it and has a tendency to crack and flake over time- this due to its routing on the bike. These just do not hold up well. I have had n.o.s. cables and they are definitely a pale gold color. Some claim there is a silver cable-I have seen these too but most seem to be a Sturmey archer cable of that period. (Close examination/simularities of both cables and one might think that Sturmey made these for Schwinn!) I will say that I have seen the pale gold cables when 'cleaned' or in places where it is scuffed-it does at times have a silver color to it(maybe faded). Again most have the pale gold color throughout the entire length of the cable. In about 1940 the cable was reduced in diameter to about 3.5mm but retained the pale gold color. Again these are plagued with the same cracking and chaffing the previous cables have. I am not well versed on postwar Schwinn's but have observed that immediate postwar up to and including the first phantoms the brake cable was a black cloth covered cable the same size as the '1940' version(approx. 3.5mm diameter). I imagine that sometime in the early 1950's they went to a plastic/nylon housing-which now seems to be the industry standard. Also of note and there are always these anomalies- there have been thicker cables on slightly later bikes and black cloth/postwar cables found on prewar bikes-after all replacements were available-so be mindful when you see a bike with something slightly different-I am only talking mainstream and basic/general observations. Also I have not touched on the subject of the cable ends(at the lever or at the brake arm)-whether it be the plumb or the barrel type but this has been a direct result of the type handle/lever design that was being used. Remember these are only one persons observations.




I appreciate your observations. This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Some of you know I have been working on an article about the Forebrakes that I hope to post on my website when I finish it. Sharing knowledge is how we learn and I appreciate those that contribute. V/r Shawn


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## mr.cycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

Autocycleplane said:


> "Some claim". I think you are pretty much wrong about everything you just said. Just my opinion, you have yours of course. We can agree to disagree as we often do and still be friends.
> 
> Let's nerd out some more about cables:
> 
> ...



How right you are Shawn-opinions matter! Differences of opinion are to be expected in every hobby and I welcome a little friendly banter(I actually might learn something)-I am living proof you can teach an old dog new tricks!


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## Freqman1 (Jan 28, 2020)

Autocycleplane said:


> "Some claim". I think you are pretty much wrong about everything you just said. Just my opinion, you have yours of course. We can agree to disagree as we often do and still be friends.
> 
> Let's nerd out some more about cables:
> 
> ...




I respect all opinions and didn't realize this could get so divisive. I'll consider all information and based on this along with my other research will hopefully write something that is useful. V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday (Jan 28, 2020)

I tend to agree with Tyler’s observations for the most part.
I’ve got and have had a little stash of original cables, and the gold color shellacked look is accurate.
I’ve seen the silver colored cloth sheath type before, but am also of the opinion that these were some type of aftermarket option.
The thick diameter is primarily used on the balloon tire bikes and the thinner diameter on the lightweights throughout their manufacture.
I’ve got an original 1938 Sports Tourist Paramount, and it has the Webb type levers with the gold smaller diameter cables.
For sure, they could have been replaced at some point, so I have no idea if they are OEM to the bike.
But the barrel end is unique to those big levers, and I’ve seen that type in both big and small diameter sheath variety.
My take on it, was more of a lightweight vs Heavyweight than early vs late model year type of thing.
Obviously we all have different opinions on the subject, which is exactly what make this hobby so much fun.
A lot to learn and explore.


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

Finally, something interesting to discuss on here.

Let's tackle the 40-41 cable first because I think it is the easiest and most clear. It is silver, no doubt about it. It is fat and different from the lighweight housing of the same time frame. It uses different ferrules and bushings than the lightweight version. This is all very clear in the 40 parts catalog, except the color of course.

This is an original correct cable, it looks gold but trust me it is silver once cleaned up. You can see the true color on the housing around the tank gills:





Another original cable off a 40, same housing. It even has some of the bright silver still showing:





I'll head up and get some photos of my 2 originals all cleaned up, along with the original Webb ends and wire, etc.


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## kenny_hungus (Jan 28, 2020)

John G04 said:


> Looks like you have a hub and lever to build a bike around


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

Factory photo shows black cable, as does all the catalog and advertisement art:





vs. the 40 art that shows the silver cable:






And many very original appearing bikes with the black cable:


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## kenny_hungus (Jan 28, 2020)

THE BREAK DOWN IS REALLY PRETTY SIMPLE HERE....I937...1938 ..1939 ARE BLACK AND THE GUAGE IS ABOUT THE SAME AS 1940 1941....1940 1941 ARE LIGHT GOLD NOT SILVER....I HAVE OWNED A LOT OF THESE CABLES OVER THE YEARS.....HERE ARE SOME 40 41 N.O.S CABLES FRONT AND REAR.....THEY ARE LIGHT GOLD.....AND I AM TALKING ABOUT CABLES THAT WERE USED ON BALLOON TIRE MODELS....MOTORBIKES ...AUTO-CYCLES.... HOLLYWOODS... ET CETERA!!!!!


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

Those look silver to me now, and would be especially so with a quick wipe down with some rubbing alcohol.


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## kenny_hungus (Jan 28, 2020)

NOW IF YOU WANNA ARGUE THESE NEAR N.O.S  40 41 CABLES PICTURED LOOK SILVER TO YOU....THAT IS WHERE THE PROBLEM LIES....I SEE  AND HAVE ALWAYS SEEN THESE AS LIGHT GOLD....BUT I DO SEE HOW SOMEONE MIGHT SAY THESE  KINDA LOOK SILVER!!!


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

Here are a few of my originals above for comparison. The Webb ends are shown, i was wrong there was a bit of solder on the lever end. I just remember there being the little spike in there as shown below as part #70 wedged in there that made it hard as heck to get off of there. The clevis end was simply held in place by a small 90 degree bend on the end of the solid wire shown above. Also note the housing is clearly silver, at least to my eyes.





And here is a close-up of some areas that still have a bit o' nicotine or whatnot that give it a gold hue.....


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## Freqman1 (Jan 28, 2020)

How about goldish silver?


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> How about goldish silver?




Dirty silver...


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## kenny_hungus (Jan 28, 2020)

SO LIKE I SAID IT WAS SO SIMPLE ALL ALONG  1937 1938 1939 BLACK AND 1940 1941 LIGHT GOLD OR SILVER IF YOU PREFER SILVER!!!!!!!!!


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## mr.cycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

You can teach an old dog new tricks...… Let me explain. Up to a few minutes ago I would argue that the cable was gold colored-it is-there is no doubt about that-it is a pale gold color-an idiot can see that . I have had nos cables and they were gold colored. But.....this talk of a silver cable and I am baffled till it hit me like a flash. As previously stated-the cable appears to be covered in a shellac. Nowadays we use many other things to 'waterproof' things but as a kid of the 50's we used 'shellac'....an amber colored 'varnish' on many of our scout projects or our folks shellacked old furniture etc. Over time....this shellac darkens up. So what does this have to do with the observed gold colored cables-everything. It appears to me-that Schwinn in attempt to build a better product-wanted to 'waterproof' these silver cables(yes I just said that-silver cables!). The already amber shellac has over time darkened up and gives us a 'pale gold' color we see 80 years later! By putting our heads together-although it seemed we were butting heads-we have solved a mystery of the 'gold colored silver cables'. What prompted this was for me to put a discerning eye on several cables I have. At a glance-all pale gold colored. I decided to scrape a small area no one would notice and before I attempted this I noticed a small area that was bright silver!!! It was a no-brainer-the original truss rod clip(probably placed in that position from the factory) had been moved by me. It was clear to see that -that small area had been protected from the elements-as noted by Eric-and the clip had sank into the 'goo' of the varnish and sealed/preserved the original silver color-it was clearly a silver color! I stand corrected-my vote is that the previously 'thought to be' gold colored cables(although they are gold colored in appearance) are in reality silver cables with an amber colored shellac! This is what makes a hobby!


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## Freqman1 (Jan 28, 2020)

This is good stuff! I’ve learned more in a few hours than I have the last three months about these. I appreciate Eric posting the pics as well showing the ends. V/r Shawn


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## mr.cycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> This is good stuff! I’ve learned more in a few hours than I have the last three months about these. I appreciate Eric posting the pics as well showing the ends. V/r Shawn




I've learned more in the last few hours about these cables than I have in the last 40 years!!! And a big 'attaboy' thanks to Eric(Autocycleplane) and his archival pictures and literature-they have really pushed this discussion over the top! Awesome!


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## fordmike65 (Jan 28, 2020)

I learned a ton of info I'll never use!   JK. This is what The Cabe is all about! Good job guys.


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## cyclingday (Jan 28, 2020)

So I guess this means no more smoking cigars out in the bike room.
Hey man!
Put that cigarette out!
You’re turning my silver cables gold!
Lol!


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## Autocycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

cyclingday said:


> So I guess this means no more smoking cigars out in the bike room.
> Hey man!
> Put that cigarette out!
> You’re turning my silver cables gold!
> Lol!




Ha! For some reason the cables need to be the proper silver to me, but the tank decal can have all the nicotine it wants for added character.


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## mr.cycleplane (Jan 28, 2020)

fordmike65 said:


> I learned a ton of info I'll never use!   JK. This is what The Cabe is all about! Good job guys.




Just think of all the good information you'll have when you finally make the switch to the dark side(and buy your first Schwinn bike-the best built bikes!).


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## fordmike65 (Jan 28, 2020)

mr.cycleplane said:


> Just think of all the good information you'll have when you finally make the switch to the dark side(and buy your first Schwinn bike-the best built bikes!).


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## markivpedalpusher (Jan 28, 2020)

Break out the cigars - I prefer the aged yellow look


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## fordmike65 (Jan 28, 2020)

markivpedalpusher said:


> Break out the cigars - I prefer the aged yellow look




Puff Puff Give


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## Freqman1 (Feb 6, 2020)

Ok some more questions/requests. Can I get good pics of the 'soldered' and 'swaged' ends of the cables.
Would most agree the long pressed 'Webb' lever is mostly a '40 item?
So am I to understand the low flange Dural rear brake was also used on balloon tire bikes as well? 1939-41? If so I could use a good pic of this brake.
Was the silver cable used on early post war bikes? If not what color/size cable was used?
My understanding is the solid, cast lever (no script) was introduced in '41. In about '48 the "Schwinn" script was added T/F
My understanding is the brakes used on tandems is wider than the standard brakes. T/F Are there any other differences?

Thanks for all the help. V/r Shawn


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 7, 2020)

_Would most agree the long pressed 'Webb' lever is mostly a '40 item?_ - I certainly would not. I would say it is more of a 39 to early 40 on balloon tire bikes. In fact they seem to be pretty rarely found on 40s, usually early production and/or the Specials (rear drum, front large flange no brake - "Death Bike 2"). The Webb lever was introduced in 38 for the licensed Webb brakes on the new lightweight line, and there are actually 2 variations of the Webb lever just like there are 2 variations of the early short lever. It is hard for me to say when they first started being used on balloon bikes but for sure were being spec'ed in 39 based on real life examples found as well as ad copy:







But note that the 1939 Schwinn Model catalog still shows the early short lever in the only 2 spots with pictured brakes:


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 7, 2020)

_So am I to understand the low flange Dural rear brake was also used on balloon tire bikes as well? 1939-41?  _- Again hard to say if they started doing it in mid-late 38 after the lightweight product line launch, but I would say for sure by 39 and into 40 but very likely disappears as an option by the end of 40. The rear Dural drum on a balloon bike seemed more of a special order or dealer add-on during or after the sale. The 50 Years book mentions the rear dural in 38 and by context suggests it applicable to balloon tire bikes. There is no mention of it as an option in the bicycle catalogs, but here it is in the 40 parts catalog:


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 7, 2020)

_My understanding is the solid, cast lever (no script) was introduced in '41_ - 1940 for sure on the skinny lever and new style drums. "Some will say" late 39 for the newer drums and skinny lever but given how late in 39 and into 40 the engineering blueprints were dated I have a very hard time believing the 39 story:

















Interesting to see the stamp was planned but it appears it was not implemented until postwar.

I'll make another post here with the prewar lever variants, might as well have all this reference information under one thread.


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 7, 2020)

In mid 37 there was a change to the shape of the early short brake lever as denoted in the drawing:





And seen here on real life examples. Look at the leading edge of the lever blade in front of the pivot:


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 7, 2020)

And there were 2 variations of the Webb lever as well. As I understand the hypothesis from a knowledgeable veteran who has seen way more of these than I ever will in my lifetime it appears the curved lever blade version was used mainly but not exclusively on lightweight applications and vice versa on the straighter version with balloon tire bikes. Probably no way to ever know for sure at this point, so sounds like a reasonable assumption until something can demonstrate otherwise.

Here are the 2 variants, first the "straighter" lever blade:








And the curved one:





I've never had a curved one. Yet.


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## Freqman1 (Feb 7, 2020)

Thanks for the replies along with the documentation to back it up Eric. A couple of thoughts here; Not brake related but...on the ad showing the '39 bike I notice it has the Persons streamline pedals which I thought was more typical of a Mead equipped machine. My library is not as deep as yours but from everything I've read it at least seems to me the Dural brake was meant for the lightweight bikes. Of course like you said they could have been installed at the dealer or as dealer supplied. I look forward to further responses. V/r Shawn


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## kenny_hungus (Feb 7, 2020)

POSTWAR  CABLES 1946 THROUGH THE 1950S  WERE BLACK AND A SMALLER GUAGE THEN THE EARLIER CABLES.....THE NEW BRAKE LEVERS THAT CAME OUT IN 1940 STARTED HAVING THE SCHWINN SCRIPT ON THEM AROUND 1952!!!!!...………………...THE PREWAR SCHWINN SCHOLAR.


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## Freqman1 (Feb 7, 2020)

kenny_hungus said:


> POSTWAR  CABLES 1946 THROUGH THE 1950S  WERE BLACK AND A SMALLER GUAGE THEN THE EARLIER CABLES.....THE NEW BRAKE LEVERS THAT CAME OUT IN 1940 STARTED HAVING THE SCHWINN SCRIPT ON THEM AROUND 1952!!!!!...………………...THE PREWAR SCHWINN SCHOLAR.
> 
> View attachment 1136533
> 
> ...




I'd like to see some documentation on the script. I always thought it was earlier. V/r Shawn


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## kenny_hungus (Feb 7, 2020)

THERE REALLY IS NONE THAT I HAVE SEEN SHOWING THE SCRIPT....ALTHOUGH THERE MIGHT BE......I AM GOING BY THE HUNDRED OR SO ORIGINAL BIKES THAT I HAVE OWNED OVER 30 YEARS.....AND THE HUNDREDS OF MORE I HAVE SEEN!!!!!!


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 7, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> Thanks for the replies along with the documentation to back it up Eric. A couple of thoughts here; Not brake related but...on the ad showing the '39 bike I notice it has the Persons streamline pedals which I thought was more typical of a Mead equipped machine. My library is not as deep as yours but from everything I've read it at least seems to me the Dural brake was meant for the lightweight bikes. Of course like you said they could have been installed at the dealer or as dealer supplied. I look forward to further responses. V/r Shawn




I agree the Dural expander brakes F&R were originally designed for the lightweight lineup. I believe at some point later in 38 (as suggested in the 50 years book) they were determined suitable for rear use on all bicycles. Examples from '39 have surfaced with the rear dural and funky, smaller front 1/2" pitch clover chainring to better pair with the available rear freewheels of the era - up to 18t it appears from the lit. The 40 parts catalog above shows a part number for a complete replacement wheel - rear dural brake with chrome 26" rim, again in reference to models previous to 40. How you got a new 38 or 39 bike built up with a rear dural brake hub from the factory is something I can't answer, but it definitely appears possible somehow to me. Webb levers used for all rear Dural applications.

Obvious from the lit that the new factory equipped '40 models like the Specials/DB2s used the newer rear expanders. Interestingly the catalog shows the '40 B6 Autocycle Special with the weird small front chainring found on the rear Dural balloon bikes even though the new hubs had a 20t/10t option for the rear. The '40 Straightbar Special has the regular 52t chainring.

Persons 77 were shown as an either/or option on a bunch of Schwinn "B" level bikes in 38, and some of the top end bikes like the Deluxe Autocycle simply had "highest grade, rubber" as the spec. Not a stretch to me to see the killer streamline pedals on the latest equipped model for ad art, Frank W. had class. 

Wow that's a lot of geeking out for one day. There are variations of the first generation Fore Brake that I will post up when I and everyone else have recovered. I'm sure we can all use a break from all of this Schwinn brake nerdiness.


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## kenny_hungus (Feb 7, 2020)

Another thing not all the drawings were 100% correct like those streamlined pedals you mentioned on that 39 drawing......there is a perfect example!!!!!!


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## Maskadeo (Feb 7, 2020)




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## atencioee (Feb 9, 2020)

@kenny_hungus , thanks for that info. Question for you on the black brake cable from 1946 - 1950s...what is the black material? Cloth? Plastic?


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## kenny_hungus (Feb 9, 2020)

A HARDENED CLOTH TYPE MATERIAL.....SAME KIND OF MATERIAL THAT WAS USED ON PREWAR CABLES.


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## cyclingday (Feb 10, 2020)

Here’s a little more cable action for all you brake lever nerds.


First up, is the barrel end used on the large pressed steel lever 38/39



Next up, is the typical ball end type used on the small pressed steel lever 38/39 and the solid cast steel levers 40 thru the postwar.



Here’s the tension adjusting thimble that is anchored to the brake plate.



Here’s an example of the two different diameters of housing.



The larger one is about 1/4” thick and the smaller one is about 3/16”


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## mr.cycleplane (Feb 10, 2020)

More awesome nerd-ness!


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 10, 2020)

7209 is the "swaged" cable end that came out in 40 and was used first for the "skinny" 40+ style lever end with 5109 (top) for the early style clevis and by 41 for both ends.

The newer style cage clevis is elongated to make it easier to attach 7209 down there:





The Webb style lever uses 5138 for the lever end and 5109 (bottom version early, top version by 40) for the clevis end. Basically same as what Marty shows above. 

The early short lever original cable is black and uses 5108 for the handle end and 5109 (bottom) for the clevis end. Later service replacements likely have 5109 (top).

37 Parts catalog:


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 10, 2020)

40 parts catalog for early lever:








Here is the 40 parts catalog reference to the Webb and 40+ skinny lever:









Note I think picture 211 is inaccurately pointing to the wrong end in the plate above. Part 7209 is the familiar swaged cable end seen on the other end and correctly called out in the lightweight section as picture 554/part 7209:


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## mr.cycleplane (Feb 11, 2020)

Absolutely incredible information! As usual Eric's archival postings have brought this thread over the top! These new postings have opened my eyes to information I was not aware of! Thanks Eric!


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## cyclingday (Feb 11, 2020)

Shawn, send everything you have over to Eric, and let him proof read the monograph.
Better let him debunk it now, than after you print and post it. Lol!


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## kenny_hungus (Feb 11, 2020)

Eric is alright.....he has the SCHOLARS RESPECT!!!!!!


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## Freqman1 (Feb 12, 2020)

So one last thing on prewar brakes. So as I understand there are both high and low flange configurations with both the "Pat'd Pending" and without (just "Schwinn" script). I would have thought that the "Pat'd Pending" would be the early brakes i.e. 1940 but it appears these were used along with the plain brakes through 1941 correct? So my next question is besides the clevis what is the difference between a plain barrel (no Pat'd Pending) prewar and postwar brake? I see no discernible difference. I also see in the Schwinn literature (Fair Trade sheets) where they offered the small/low flange brake up until about '54 but I don't recall seeing this brake used after the war. I see the last availability the large flange Forebrake in the 1960 Fair Trade sheet. Thoughts? Thanks, Shawn


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## mr.cycleplane (Feb 12, 2020)

Great question! I have also noticed on the fore-brake and especially the hi/lo version other that 'pat.pend.' or Schwinn(in script) on the spool area-have not given it much thought-much of what you say seems to be 'normal' accepted thought. It does seem a given that the first ones had 'pat.pend'.  Someone once told me the difference between the pre/post war was in the axel itself and the way the dust covers/cones were. Was it that the early had a pressed into hub cover and the postwar a dust cover on the cone itself(basically like the front spool hubs). This cutting down on labor and much easier for the dealer in repair/replacement/maintenance. But i just don't know myself as i have seen/had so many both ways! Perhaps our C.A.B.E. resident expert can provide some more parts schematics of both pre/post war and solve the mystery!


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 13, 2020)

Freqman1 said:


> So one last thing on prewar brakes. So as I understand there are both high and low flange configurations with both the "Pat'd Pending" and without (just "Schwinn" script). I would have thought that the "Pat'd Pending" would be the early brakes i.e. 1940 but it appears these were used along with the plain brakes through 1941 correct? So my next question is besides the clevis what is the difference between a plain barrel (no Pat'd Pending) prewar and postwar brake? I see no discernible difference. I also see in the Schwinn literature (Fair Trade sheets) where they offered the small/low flange brake up until about '54 but I don't recall seeing this brake used after the war. I see the last availability the large flange Forebrake in the 1960 Fair Trade sheet. Thoughts? Thanks, Shawn




I believe that all the 1940-41 brakes both small and large flange had the Pat Pending stamp. Early postwar still used the caged clevis. If you look at the blueprints for the large flange hub shell there were changes made during postwar production - mostly small dimension and machining changes noted on the drawing. 

Only major change between prewar and early postwar hubs might be the use of loose vs caged bearings similar to the small Schwinn script hub also introduced in '40 which shares the same axle/cones/bearings as the small flange drum 40+.

The main reason for keeping a small flange front brake in 40 was the larger axle of the large flange version wouldn't fit the truss fork without modifications. I think the postwar "ashtabula" style forks didn't have that problem so demand probably withered? Just guessing on the latter.


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 13, 2020)

More cowbell you say?


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 13, 2020)

So I figured it's worth noting here there are a few variations of the early 4" original Fore Brake. 

The first version appeared to have had some issues and changes were made late March of 37 to the hub shell and a new axle system. I don't think too many of these are around. This is the brake in all of the original drawings from the lit and parts catalog from 37. It used felt washers to seal in the bearing grease and used an axle with a step on the brake side to lock the cone against. It also appears to have had a thinner spoke flange on non-brake side, the drum rivets don't have one hole offset to aid alignment, and other minor changes. These have no letter stamped on the inside of the hub shell between the rivets. 

The next version used an improved axle system similar to a New Departure front hub, which make good replacement parts for these hubs btw. These hubs have a letter (for sure "A" or "C", maybe "B"?) stamped between the rivets on the inside of the drum, as well as the offset rivet to make sure the spoke holes line up side-to-side:





At some point in early 39 some other small changes were made, and another axle system similar to ND with different part numbers was in use by 39/40. 

The brake plate originally used 2 springs of the same size:




Then at some point in 38/9 a switch was made to a larger bottom spring:





Also the early shoes had the original part number:




Before switching to the single numbers seen on the ones above. I've seen 1-8 on these shoes, no clue what they mean.


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 13, 2020)

1937 Parts Catalog:


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 13, 2020)

1940 Parts Catalog:


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## Freqman1 (Feb 13, 2020)

Eric, thanks so much for your contributions. Of course all this just doubled the size of the monograph! I'll submit for your edit before posting. V/r Shawn


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## Autocycleplane (Feb 15, 2020)

Couple more thoughts and clarifications:

Just to settle the housing color discussion once and for all, the Webb and Dural F&R drums introduced in April of '38 use the same "Special aluminum finish, waterproof cable housing":









And when I cross reference the part numbers for the ferrules and lever end bushings in the catalog for these early lightweight brakes they are the same as the beefy housing for the balloon tire drum brakes. It looks like only the 40+ lightweights with the skinny cast lever and caliper brakes got the smaller gauge housing. I think all Webb lever applications got this aluminum finish cable that everyone thought was p!ss gold - meaning late 38 or 39 for balloon tire bikes. I now think at some point by 39ish all new cable production was likely silver, possibly NOS older black stuff still being used too - who knows. I do know what color aluminum is though....

I think there is a ton of overlap year to year on availability:

- Black cables - mostly early short lever starting in 37, fades out late 38 to mid 39
- Silver cables - show up mid 38 on lightweights for Webb and Dural brakes, late 38 to early 39 on everything else

- Early short lever - 37 to 39 on bikes, and through 40 via parts
- Webb lever - mid 38 on lightweights, early 39 (or even late 38) to early/mid 40 on balloon 
- Skinny cast lever - 40+ 

- Webb lever used on both early 4" fore brake as well as the later 40+ version hubs.

Anyway, it's been fun. I've obviously looked at this stuff way too much, but never really in such an organized and in-depth way. I learned a bunch of stuff just trying to explain what I thought I already knew. 

Shawn - have you thought about contacting @Mark Mattei to see if he has any more lever or drum related blueprints/drawings that he hasn't posted on his site? Maybe the mysteries of the Webb lever variants, porkchop spring changes, etc. could be solved if there are more of those he just hasn't made public. A huge thanks here to Mark for putting all of those up for all to see and learn from.


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## Freqman1 (Feb 15, 2020)

Autocycleplane said:


> Couple more thoughts and clarifications:
> 
> Just to settle the housing color discussion once and for all, the Webb and Dural F&R drums introduced in April of '38 use the same "Special aluminum finish, waterproof cable housing":
> 
> ...





Thanks again Eric for sharing. I'll see Mark at Ann Arbor and see what he may be abel to help us with. V/r Shawn


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## Mark Johnston (Feb 15, 2020)

Personally I love all of the versions. Anyone have a crusty one for sale?


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## kenny_hungus (Feb 15, 2020)

And here is a better picture of a postwar cable in good condition used 1946 to 1959 roughly....these are waterproofed also!!!!!!


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## PlasticNerd (Jul 25, 2020)

Here is a large drum rear brake pork chop. But it has Fore-wheel Brake stamped on it!!!


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## WES PINCHOT (Jul 26, 2020)

JUST RAN ACROSS THIS TODAY!
A LOT OF WORK HERE!
WHOSE DOCTORAL THESIS WORK IS THIS ANYWAY?
KUDOS!


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