# Very early Pope?



## davekingedits (Jun 19, 2010)

Hey,

I've been lurking for a while -- this is my first post.  Also, I don't own a vintage bike, unless you want to count my 40-year-old Raleigh Carlton.

But our local historical society does, and I had a couple questions about it.  It's identified as a 1890 Pope -- I didn't get it down to look at the headbadge to confirm that.  It has two features I have never seen mentioned here.  On is solid tires.  I got a closeup look at them, and they don't seem to be shrivled tubed tires.  They seem to be genuinely solid rubber.  On metal rims, by the way.

Also, the chain seems to be a precursor of even a block chain.  It's made up of individual, identical links that interlock with one another.  I recognize it -- I have a similar chain on an antique pedal-powered grinder.  In fact, I have a dozen or so extra links I'd be willing to sell, if anyone's looking for them.

It has some other nice features.  The front fork is sprung, the seat has a fairly complex set of springs under it, and it seems to have its original tool kit tucked under the seat.  It also has a brake -- a small, spoon-like plate that presses against the back wheel.  It's actuated by a hand lever on the right hand grip through a series of links that runs down the frame.

So what is this thing?  Is it particularly rare?  Is there anything anyone can tell me about it?

Thanks,


David King


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## redline1968 (Jun 19, 2010)

photo? mark


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## davekingedits (Jun 19, 2010)

No digital camera, sorry.  Perhaps when I get a cable for my cell phone.

David


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## walter branche (Jun 20, 2010)

it is called ewart chain.. the bike can be identified by the frame style, is it two top bars?, are the tires 1 inch, or 7/8ths,front wheel 32 inch- rear 30, where is the nameplate mounted??the bikes are not rare ,there are many bought and sold 2,500- 7,500, there is a link to a ladies bike, that is on  ebay,on this site ,, scott's does not have the spring fork feature .. also the ewart chain is 1-1/16th ,,usually that chain is found on the first year bikes ..1889..


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## davekingedits (Jun 20, 2010)

Dear Walter,

Thanks.  I've looked up Ewart chains, and that's what it has.  I've never seen one on a bicycle before, though as I say I have a pedal grinder that uses one.  

I'll try to get into the historical society next week to get some measurements.  Maybe I'll get the cell-phone cable and get some pictures up.

Thanks again,

David


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## pelletman (Jun 20, 2010)

Can you text pictures?  Bring a kid or ask any kid who happens to be around to take them and send them to you via email,,


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## walter branche (Jun 21, 2010)

check out this photo being sold on ebay  380241646077 this is a 1889 mans columbia hard tired safety,,you will be able to tell,,, when you see the unusual features of how the frame is ..


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## davekingedits (Jun 21, 2010)

Dear Walter,

I don't believe the frame of the historical society bike drops, but other than that, that's the bike.  The chain, the saddle, the braking system, the tires are all right.

Thanks a lot.

David


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## davekingedits (Jun 21, 2010)

By the way, if I wanted to bring the historical society bike back to ridable condition -- if only for parades and such -- are solid tires like that still available?  The original tires are at least half missing, and much of what remains has been strapped to the rims with elecrical tape.

Or would replacing the tires undermine the bike's historical value?

David


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## redline1968 (Jun 21, 2010)

save the originals and use new to ride on.  mark


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## walter branche (Jun 23, 2010)

i do not think you will be able to get the solid rubber off of the rim , enough to make a difference in saving it,. it will usually come off in chunks .. if the tires are on and showing ,, rubber all the way around ,, i would not destroy the original feature of the bike ,, get it down and clean it ,,.. leave the original tires, on it ,, they are tough to ride , bikes weigh like a tank, if you decide to put tires on it ,let me know ,and i will tell you someone in your area that can do that..


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## pelletman (Jun 23, 2010)

If the originals are mostly gone it is no big deal to replace them.  I can help you with that.  Are you getting the bike?  You also need to replace the seat leather.  I have the stuff for that too.  Then you need to ride with us in parades!  www.thewheelmen.org


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## davekingedits (Jun 26, 2010)

I just came back from the historical society, and the bike is definitely the early Pope in the photograph I was referred to later.  The slightly dropped frame and the back fender that's integrated into the frame are both right.  

I've taken some pictures.  I just have to figure out how to dump them to my computer and I'll post them.

Pelletman, thanks for the offer of riding with the wheelman.  I'm genuinely flattered.  But looking at the bike again, I think it's best left preserved in the museum.  I could remove the original tires without damaging them further (they are broken into segments and held on with electrical tape), but the leather on the saddle seems to be original and complete.  It's too delicate for use, and I wouldn't want to replace it.  So I think this is a case for conservation.

Thanks again,

David King


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## pelletman (Jun 26, 2010)

You could take the saddle and the original hardware off, replace it with new leather and a reproduction cantle, ride the bike, then put the original back on for display without damaging anything..  Not a big deal


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 26, 2010)

I concur.  Put on new tires and ride the heck out of it and get a few more people coming through the museum!


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## davekingedits (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks.  That is a possibility, though I wouldn't want to ride it any further than in local parades -- the roads in western Massachusetts are just too vertical for that little spoon brake.

I've uploaded a picture and discovered the limits of a cheap cell phone camera in poor light.  The image really isn't worth attaching.  The bike is hanging from the ceiling in the Historical Museum Barn, which is only open on Saturday mornings.  I don't know when I'll be able to get there with a real camera, get it down, and take some real pictures.

Thanks again for all your help.


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## davekingedits (Jun 27, 2010)

I've downloaded the other two pictures and decided that maybe they are worth putting up.  

Enjoy,

David King


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## chriscokid (Jun 27, 2010)

whats the deal with you and the museum you work there? got a close friend that works there??  that is one special bicycle i would love to have


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 27, 2010)

That machine should not be hanging up in a tobacco barn!  Clean it up and get it roadworthy for the next 120 years!


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## davekingedits (Jun 28, 2010)

Actually, it's not hanging in a tobacco barn.  It is where they store and display their larger exhibits, such as the town's nineteenth-century hand-drawn firehose cart or the up-and-down water-powered sawmill (also not functioning).  It's clean and dry and patrolled to make sure no vermin move in.  I actually don't think they're doing such a bad job of curating.  

I'm a member of the Ashfield Historical Society and friends with the curator and her husband.  I've also designed their website, www.ashfieldhistorical.org.  

I am tempted to find a saddle and some tires for it, but I wouldn't have time for it any time soon.  I was mostly interested in what the bike was, how rare it was, and anything else I could find.  You've all helped with that, thanks.

David King


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## chriscokid (Jun 28, 2010)

David that is remarkable that a bicycle like that is still around will you ever take it down clean it a bit and take lots and lots of close up pictures for us?? i would like to see the head tube crank wheel hubs seat ... just everything how about it buddy???


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## davekingedits (Jun 28, 2010)

Dear Chrisco,

I'd be happy to, when I get the time.  But you've got me intrigued.  An earlier poster said these bikes weren't particularly rare.  Just how rare is this thing?  Would anyone have a rough idea of value?

Thanks,

David


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## chriscokid (Jun 28, 2010)

Well I would say it's rare  I mean how many bicycles do you know of or seen from the late 1800s?? There is a thread on hear that I was replying to where a guy had a bicycle similar to yours and he parted it out. I looked back on this thread and I think you saw the bicycle it was on ebay Walter was helping you out. Hey the bicycle is rare. I mean if you are being offered to ride it with the Wheelmens Organization that pretty much says it all. I couldn't say what it's worth priceless is my guess (but everything has a price). I have only seen the one similar to yours that was parted out on ebay and pictures of a bicycles like this in a book called (Bicycle) by David V Herlihy. It's a book about the history of bicycles from day 1 the 1600s where back in the day they were pushing sticks and wheels with there feet!!. This isn't no Schwinn Aerocycle it's the Aerocycle's great great grand paw. The bike is rare It's an early safety some where around 112 yr's old i guess. I would love to have something like this, just couldn't afford it. if i would have to say i would say around 2,000 and thats just a wild guess. i hope some one else chimes in and corrects me...


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## chriscokid (Jun 29, 2010)

check this out dave this is the one i told you about that was parted out

and how about this i found on the bay http://cgi.ebay.com/1890s-Hartford-...aultDomain_0&hash=item4cf02ec8f5#ht_500wt_938

and your is a mans bicycle it looks like... much more desirable


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## pelletman (Jun 29, 2010)

It is a nice bike, it should be cleaned up and preserved and displayed!


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## pelletman (Jun 29, 2010)

and ridden of course...


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## davekingedits (Jun 29, 2010)

Um . . . is the front sprocket on that Ebay bike bent?  Or is it genuinely eccentric?  And if so, what's up with that?  It would change the moment arm and make the peadling very uneven.  A great idea that did not work?

David


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 29, 2010)

Looks like an oval chainring to me- Biopace Mk.1


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## chriscokid (Jun 29, 2010)

i'm not sure what to make of that chainring in one of the pictures it looks oval another picture it looks bent and another picture it looks perfectly straight might be camera tricks!!! 

i just asked the seller about the chainring in question


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## pelletman (Jun 29, 2010)

It is an oval chainring...


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## DonChristie (Jun 29, 2010)

And the spokes are radially laced, cool! Ride it!


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## chriscokid (Jun 29, 2010)

is  it like davekingedits  says ....A great idea that did not work? i never heard of anything like that. wouldn't that put tension on the chain and loosen it with every rotation of the peddles?? what were they trying to accomplish. a better bicycle of corse but i don't get it?    

i still haven't got a answer from the seller


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## walter branche (Jun 30, 2010)

*not  rare*

that bike is not rare,,, there are many of those early popes purchased and ridden ,also raced ,...(in the wheelmen events ).. the elliptical sprocket also is not rare ,, it was made for the downward power stroke ,, if you go to the copake auction site ,you can see how the prices are all over  the place .. i have bought and sold more than 20 of those bikes ,, i bought one from  mike wolfe ,american pickers for 2,000,about 2 years ago before he became a movie star ..   bikes built 100 years ago ,do not = rare, there are some bikes that are rare and bring the money ,, ,


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## chriscokid (Jun 30, 2010)

Thanks for the input  Walter i was hoping you would reply to this post again after i first started posting on this chat. I am clueless to the rarity of these bicycles. i just thought as old as it is it would have to be rare and in a since it is rare in my mind. also my guess of the value of the bicycle was just a shot in the dark. i went to the copake site last night and was checking them out. Some do go for well over 3 to 4 thousand and some can be had for 3 to 4 hundred. I didn't know there were so many out there for the public to have.. and what i noticed was most of the 3 to 4 hundred bicycles looked to be women's bicycles? 

QUESTIONS

when the invention of the safety bicycles, were they making women's bicycles at the same time or was it just a man's world?   

also to say that this safety or that safety bicycle is rare what would make it rare? 
1. being it was made with a low production run or a famous or unknown maker?
2. the invention of a part on the bicycle that might revolutionary the bicycle world for the future to come?

I have never rode one or even seen one of these bicycles in person. i can only guess that it would be a strange and uncomfortable ride.. but hey back in that day i guess they were so excited not to be walking or having to keep the up keep of a horse or animal they didn't care how uncomfortable it was. I also can only guess that they were just amazed that they were being propelled forward with out there feet touching the ground without the assistance of anything but human power. the invention of self propelled peddle power.... WOW


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## walter branche (Jun 30, 2010)

go to the wheelmen.org site .and check out some of the early iron.. also there is a photo of a very rare mans bike from 1891 ,.. send an email and i can reply with some history and photos ,,.  thanks---- wbranche@cfl.rr.com   407 656 9840- there were many ideas from 1816 untill today ,on bikes , for women ,,men and children ,,..how much you pay for a rare bike does not mean anything,, other than a price ,, it does not = quality,or how nice it rides ,, there is no bike that rides as nice as a properly fitted highwheel   (ordinary) bicycle ,,..or a safety bike like   my 1891  new mail hard tired safety ,,with 30 inch wheels- rear 7/8ths-and front rubber 3/4 inch,it is like walking ,, so nice and easy and quiet ..


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## chriscokid (Jun 30, 2010)

will do thanks walter


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## pelletman (Jul 1, 2010)

schwinndoggy said:


> And the spokes are radially laced, cool! Ride it!




No, they are tangential...


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