# REALLY Frustrated on Model & Year Hawthorne Ward Bike



## cannedham1 (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi, I am new to bikes and this site. I would really appreciate help on identifying this bike. My husband got it from his dad and we know nothing about it. I have search several hours and I do mean several online but I am more confused than when I started. This is what I know...A33363 is on frame which is attached to paisley skip tooth ( forgot what you call it). Tires are 26 inch. Front fender is really confusing because it comes to a point. Seat is a Pierce. Brakes state Model D New Departure. There is an H on the front of bike, it is not a winged H. I have supplied some pictures. I am excited to finally learn what we have.


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## RMS37 (Jul 25, 2011)

The serial number, coupled with the bike itself, show this example to be what is known generically as a Victory bicycle. Victory lightweight models were built by most bicycle manufacturers for WW2 wartime adult usage. The serial number marks this as probably from early 1942 especially considering it was branded as a MW Hawthorne rather than a Roadmaster, (the CWC in-house brand). CWC quit large-scale bicycle production for the duration of the War in February of 1942 but through out the war a small number of bikes trickled out of the factory built up from stock on hand.

The black-out finish on the hubs and sprocket is another give-a-way to the Wartime issue of this bicycle. Most of the bike looks original with the exception of the repaint and the saddle. The bike would have originally had a period light-weight saddle which would make riding it easier that the saddle currently fitted. That saddle is at least seven years earlier than the bike and was designed for a lower frame, which would have provided a more relaxed, seated leg angle for the rider.

Here is a link to a post (look for sailorbenjamin’s post, dated 1-30-2011) that shows a very similar bike in original condition.

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?2705-Cleveland-Welding-S-N-Project/page2


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## cannedham1 (Jul 25, 2011)

*Its a VICTORY, Thank You*

Phil, thank you so much for responding so quickly. You mentioned the bike does not have the original paint, what color would it have been? You also mentioned that the saddle is not original, is it possible to get an original one? I am really curious about the  pointed front fender, was that normal for that bike? My husband is considering restoring it. Do you have any idea what the bike is worth as is or if restored? It is a shame to let such a piece of history to just deteriorate. I think it's really unique. Thanks again, Pam


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## RMS37 (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi Pam, I'm glad I could help you discern what you have and put the mystery to rest!

Check out the identical bike in the thread I linked to, it has the same fender, which is original and of a pattern that was popular for American lightweights from the late thirties through the early fifties.  
All of the CWC Victory lightweights I have seen have been painted Maroon which is sort of CWC’s “home” color. I note that it was repainted as there is no evidence of the decals and pin striping that was standard on these bikes, again check the link for reference.

CWC produced lightweights for a couple years before WW2 and they were available in all the standard “fleet” colors used by CWC (maroon, red, blue, black, green, and cream) so it is possible that your bike was one of these other colors, usually there is some remnant of original paint hiding somewhere on any bike.

You should be able to find a more suitable saddle, the one on the reference bike is correct and the saddle you currently have on your bike is likely to be more valuable than what is correct so you may be able to work a trade with someone on this site.

Down to value, I agree that anything old is worth preserving (a hoarder’s creed if there ever was one!) but true restoration is expensive and in the bike collecting world it is a rare exception when the costs of restoration can be recouped in value added to the unrestored object. In today’s market I would expect the most original, best Victory bike out there to have a fair market value of around $500 with most decent examples selling at around half that. A quality restoration for the bike would run over $1000 so money has to be truly “no object” to justify that route. 

I imagine the bike as it sits, whole, is worth around $100 and it looks like it may have a bent fork. For virtually no monetary outlay, you could clean the bike, straightening the fork, greasing the bearings and put on what will be a more correct and comfortable seat and using it as a bicycle with period charm. Since the bike is missing its original decals and striping, I also don’t see any historic harm done in repainting the bike in a period style and doing an amateur restoration on it. The result of that course will be a more visually appealing bike with a realistic value of around $300 if the work is generally period correct and reasonably well done.

I hope this helps,

Best,

Phil


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## cannedham1 (Jul 26, 2011)

*My Victory Bike*

Phil you are so informative thanks. Restoration is alot more expensive than I thought. Wow quite an expensive hobby for someone. Yes I saw the picture and it looks like mine. I finally got to see a picture, it was like wow there it is! Is it possible to find the decals for that bike? There is traces of maroon paint underneath the red. Phil, why do most victory bikes I see have the 2 bars from the handle bars to saddle? Could you also tell me more about the saddle on the bike? I feel smarter I know its a saddle not seat thanks to you.


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## RMS37 (Jul 26, 2011)

It is interesting that your bike is maroon under the red paint. While I believe it is likely that these bikes were produced in various colors, I have only seen them in maroon and it may be they were all painted one color as another way to focus on conserving materials.

The bike I linked you to is badged as Cleveland Welding’s (CWC) in-house brand; Roadmaster, so the livery and any decalage on that bike might differ from one branded as an MW Hawthorne. I don’t believe any of the decals on that bike are currently available as reproductions (though there are people on this site that can reproduce decals) but most of the decoration on the bike is manually applied pin striping with the exception of a couple of small decals on the seat tube.

I believe your question about noticing two tubes top tubes on most victory bikes is a reference to the difference between standard balloon-tire models from that period as opposed to diamond framed lightweights like the bike you have. If I am following the intended path, the difference is due to your bike being essentially the then-current version of an American built adult lightweight. The lower set bicycles with curved frame tubes and multiple top tubes are the style of bicycle produced in this country in the thirties through the fifties for children, aged 9-13. Adult sized diamond frames were just gaining a small toehold in the American market at the outbreak of WW2 and their production as basic transportation kept them available but rationed for most of the war. Initially balloon models were also produced as stripped down victory models but as they were primarily a non-essential child’s toy and as they required more materials to fabricate, they were dropped more quickly from production.

The saddle currently mounted on your bike is the type that would have originally been used on a Balloon bike, circa 1933-1936 or their predecessor, the single-tube tired Moto-bike from the early thirties. Saddle (or seat, either is appropriate) design changed almost annually during the 1930’s so pinning down the approximate build date for a saddle is fairly easy. You stated that your saddle is a Pierce Saddle. To the best of my knowledge, Pierce did not manufacture bicycle saddles at that time so it may be that the saddle was manufactured by one of the major bicycle saddle manufacturers and specially stamped for use on a Pierce bike. It looks like the desirable bucket style saddle and if it is in reasonable shape it is probably worth as much as the rest of the bike to many collectors and worth at least twice what an appropriate saddle for your bike in equal or better condition would usually bring.  

Lastly, referring back to your initial comment about the costs of restoration, While it is the inescapable rule in this hobby (and many others) today that restoration costs are not returned in value added to the bicycle when it is sold, it is still a popular pastime for many collectors. Passion and the fun of recreating an image of the past, or sentiment attached to a family heirloom, often outweigh purely monetary reasons for holding back.

True and Accurate restorations can be very costly both in dollars and in the time required to do the research and physical work or to oversee contracting it out. On the bright side most bicycles can be cleaned and mechanically rehabilitated for a very small investment of time and money and are likely to provide more riding fun than a $2000 restoration that is easily damaged if put to use.  

I probably overwrote my response a bit but I’m always happy to share what I know, (especially regarding CWC bicycles) and to provide an avenue into the hobby for interested individuals.

If you post more pictures of your saddle I might be able to tell you a bit more about it or it you have other question feel free to ask.


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## cannedham1 (Jul 27, 2011)

*Victory Bike*

Phil you certainly do not overwrite your responses, you have been of great help and I appreciate your knowledge and willingness to help me. I am confused by colors I am not seeing on my bike. I previously mentioned maroon which I did see a small amount but not I am seeing alot of yellow. I sent a picture below.

   I understand now about the two bars thanks to your explanation. Oh I put air in the tires and they hold air.. how cool is that?

   The seat says Pierce Marathon on top of it. It needs to be retreaded around seams in areas. I sent pics below. Oh is there a reason my bike is called a "diamond" frame?

















  Pam


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## RMS37 (Aug 8, 2011)

Hi, I apologize for the delay in getting back to your thread and answering your questions. I’ve found that war-time tires had a durability that you don’t usually find in earlier products. Perhaps the rubber companies changed their formulas during that period with an eye toward producing a longer lasting product out of altruistic motives.

I had been wondering if your seat actually was stamped for Pierce, in the photo the logo on the seat is for Persons, one of the “big three” bicycle saddle companies of the day. Your Buffalo location may have had you seeing Pierce, which manufactured bicycles, motorcycles, and cars in that city. It is typical for the stitching on these saddles to wear out before the coverings. If the holes for the stitching are still intact it may be possible to carefully re-stitch the saddle, but as I noted, it is not the correct saddle for the bike and probably has as much or a higher value to many collectors in as-is condition as it would with amateur restoration work. 

The best way to determine the original color is to look for signs of original paint in areas that may have escaped any previous refurbishment. Often portions of the original paint can be found on the fork steerer tube, which becomes visible when you remove the fork from the frame. Sometimes a repaint also covers this area so other areas to check are the inside of the crank hanger and crevices around the crank hanger, rear dropouts, and the seat cluster. It may also be that your bike was originally painted cream which was another fairly standard CWC or the yellow may also be just another earlier layer of owner applied paint. 

The curvilinear balloon frames that are so popular on this site are actually an aberration rather than the norm in the history of bicycle frame design. Your bike is referred to as having a diamond frame because the trapezoidal shape of the basic frame without the fork takes on a diamond shape when viewed from the side. Frames in a diamond configuration became the standard bicycle design during the 1890’s and remain so to this day even though many bikes now feature oddly shaped tubes because of the ability to produce them so with modern materials.


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## cannedham1 (Aug 9, 2011)

*Persons Seat not Pierce*

HI Phil, I am to be corrected, the seat is Person not Pierce. My husband took off the Hawthorne badge and the color is maroon. The bike frame was repainted a few times. Not sure if all the holes are intact on seat for restitching, I will have to take a good look. Can you direct me on this site as to where I might purchase the correct seat for my bike. I would also like to sell the seat that is on my bike, can you direct me as to how I might do that. Phil, is there a book available on my bike that I can purchase? 

   Thanks again for your help. Pam


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