# Jesse's got another up for bids..............



## halfatruck (Jul 11, 2010)

http://cgi.ebay.com/1937-Elgin-blue...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bdcb53ef


----------



## rustyspoke66 (Jul 11, 2010)

Now that is sweet!


----------



## chitown (Jul 11, 2010)

View attachment 10939View attachment 10940View attachment 10941View attachment 10942View attachment 10943


Links to some of the patents on this bike.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=DX...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Dn...lected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q=102725&f=false

http://www.google.com/patents?id=D3...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.google.com/patents?id=EX...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.google.com/patents?id=he...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Included some from the girl's version

Designed by John Morgan a citizen of the Republic of Guatemala, residing in Oak Park, in the county of Cook and the State of Illinois... in 1936.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=NY...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Design _*for a wheel*_ by Frank H. Le Jeune of Detroit claims "...the wheel body shown in full lines made convex with two annular concentric beads; the radially inner portion of the radially outer bead having relatively narrow radial openings."

CAD SCHMAD

Pen and ink stipple old skool design!

And yes, I'm addicted to google patent search. I think it could be a great resource for bike research!

ETA: and helps establish provenance.


----------



## 53Phantom (Jul 11, 2010)

My all-time favorite bike.


----------



## chriscokid (Jul 11, 2010)

NOW that bicycle is just beautiful..... and it looks just like what it is described as...


----------



## cyclingday (Jul 11, 2010)

*The stuff that dreams are made of.*

I never could understand the Shelby Air-flo, but the Elgin Bluebird is one of, if not the most elegant bicycles ever built. If I didn't know that it was made in America, I would have thought it to be made in 1930s France. Nothing compares to the beauty of that bike. I just wish that I had the fortitude to step up and buy that beauty. I'm sure that it will run up a pretty nice price tag. Maybe not Shaftdrive Robin numbers, but it will definately seperate the men from the boys.
Congrat's to who ever ends up with this, it is without a doubt, one of, if not the finest bicycles ever made.


----------



## kingsilver (Jul 12, 2010)

what's that uneven surface on the bottom bar towards the front? is this a bad repair, or is it bad workmanship?


----------



## Freqman1 (Jul 12, 2010)

This too is my dream bike and since I still have two kidneys....


----------



## yewhi (Jul 12, 2010)

Definitely a nice bike but...  For a bike that's going to sell in the 10K+ range, you would've thought he'd at least wipe the grime and dust off before photographing it, eh?  But yeah, Nice Bike!


----------



## PCHiggin (Jul 12, 2010)

*Pocket Change.....*

I'd think even $30,000 would be a small amount for that guy. I don't understand why he's selling it?

Pat


----------



## chriscokid (Jul 12, 2010)

yewhi said:


> Definitely a nice bike but...  For a bike that's going to sell in the 10K+ range, you would've thought he'd at least wipe the grime and dust off before photographing it, eh?  But yeah, Nice Bike!




i think the bicycle is all original and is like the description says (not put together with parts) you can tell it was loved and not ridden much even before & after jesse got it. It's possible your looking at 1937 dust and grime . the dust and grime is the one of the  selling points of knowing that it was never pieced together... serious buyers look for things like that. i would question his description if it was clean and shinny.

and yes congratulations to who ever wins this beautiful bicycle


----------



## chitown (Jul 12, 2010)

chriscokid said:


> It's possible your looking at 1937 dust and grime .




Wowie! Vintage, original dust... but how can you prove it's pre-war dust? lol

Cool bike no matter what decade the dust originates from.


----------



## SirMike1983 (Jul 12, 2010)

It's a nice piece. Though frankly, I don't find it terribly attractive.


----------



## chriscokid (Jul 12, 2010)

HA HA LOL.. I guess you can't prove tha dust is that old... but if it was shinny,clean and new looking like the chainless i would have to question it.. i guess it's a strategy to keep the questions down on epay


----------



## Rookie (Jul 12, 2010)

That is beautiful!


----------



## chriscokid (Jul 12, 2010)

rookie how's your project coming along


----------



## Aeropsycho (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm gonna make one out of Plastic.


----------



## Adamtinkerer (Jul 12, 2010)

I love it, but looking at it, it looks like it's a pretty small bike, with a short wheelbase. I'm thinking my 6'5" wouldn't be able to ride it even if I had stupid money! When I get my shop area organized, and the welder working, maybe I'll make my own interpretation!


----------



## Re-Cyclist (Jul 13, 2010)

I would expect to see $10,000 - $12,000 on this bike at a good swap meet. I wouldn't be surprised if this one goes for more because of where it's coming from. $14-$15K ?


----------



## yewhi (Jul 14, 2010)

chriscokid said:


> i think the bicycle is all original and is like the description says (not put together with parts) you can tell it was loved and not ridden much even before & after jesse got it. It's possible your looking at 1937 dust and grime . the dust and grime is the one of the  selling points of knowing that it was never pieced together... serious buyers look for things like that. i would question his description if it was clean and shinny.
> 
> and yes congratulations to who ever wins this beautiful bicycle




Wow!  Clearly I'm not a serious collector.  To me it just looked like five years of grime and dust collected from sitting neglected in the back of someone's garage that had more money than common sense and didn't care much about what he had aside from having it because he could.  How naive was I not to realize the dust was vintage as well?

Cheers,

TCN


----------



## catfish (Jul 14, 2010)

It looks worse than last time I saw it. More scratches. And neglect.


----------



## kingsilver (Jul 26, 2010)

you really think that bad weld below the steering tube and front bottom bar were passed at final inspection at the plant? - i don't think so - maybe a slick repair and paint job?    i can't believe the craftsmen of that era would let a cosmetic defect like that slip by.


----------



## RMS37 (Jul 26, 2010)

The area you are referring to is where the sheet metal of the upper body melds with the down tube and the quality of the joint on Jesse’s bike is on par with the fit and finish that was standard for these bikes. Jesse’s bike is one of the later Bluebirds and this area on late Bluebirds is much cleaner than it is on the earlier units.

The workers building the Bluebird frames put a lot of hand brazed brass into the area where the internal head tube connects with the down tube and the sheet metal body. This is one of the areas that was difficult to fabricate and required a lot of individual fitting and brass brazing and filling to mate the parts. The Bluebirds had to be built to a price and in numbers that didn’t allow the extensive additional work that would have produced a seamless joint at that location.


----------



## kingsilver (Jul 26, 2010)

it seems hard to beleive in my opinion - for westfield mfg. company at that time to spend alot of time designing one of the most expensive bikes of the prewar era - and skimping on a five minute filing job. maybe sales numbers were more important than quality for them?


----------



## RMS37 (Jul 26, 2010)

“it seems hard to beleive in my opinion - for westfield mfg. company at that time to spend alot of time designing one of the most expensive bikes of the prewar era - and skimping on a five minute filing job. maybe sales numbers were more important than quality for them?” 

I read your comment several times; I find it insulting but that is on me, I also find it ignorant of several key facts. 

For the record I assume you are saying you don’t believe what I told you and that in your opinion Westfield would have gone to whatever lengths were necessary to create a smoother juncture at the transition from the body to the tubing. 

You might consider climbing down from your ivory tower and looking at a few real life examples of the Westfield produced Bluebirds, I can assure you won’t find an original Bluebird that doesn’t have a thick transition at that location. It is the way they were built with a stamped sheet metal body attached to a tubular frame. 

If you examined the construction of the bike you would realize that it is no simple 5-minute filing job to smooth the monocoque to frame juncture. Production realities meant allowing some space between the body stamping and the jigged frame components. Brass was liberally used to close this space. Because of the forward expanding contour of the sheet metal body you could not grind forward into it to smooth the transition, you would have to fillet a good distance to the rear to make a seamless transition. In doing this you would encase the curving down tube in a large fillet of brass or lead that would be sure to crack with much real world use.

Production exigencies are what they are and necessary to bring something as complex as the Bluebird to market. Yes, the stampings could have been shaped to fit more closely to the down tube and the jigging of the tubular components could have had a tighter tolerance to allow a more precise fit but you have to take three things into account.

First, you always have to consider these were bikes built for mass marketing to children they were not high-end cost-no-object art deco masterpieces like a Ruhlmann desk. 

Second, you note that the Bluebird was one of the most expensive bicycles of it’s time. Actually it was moderately priced for a top-of-the-line model and it is likely that it was sold at a comparative loss considering the number of specialized parts, the complexity of construction, and the handwork employed in producing it.

Third, YES; sales numbers were important! Considering the above points it is amazing the bike was produced at all. It was a highly experimental design and while it symbolizes the future of the bicycle as seen at the time it was highly impractical to build and functionally inferior to a contemporary Moto-Balloon. It was successful in a look-at-Sears sort of way. Both then and today it is a “Halo” model for the both Sears and the entire Classic Bicycle Hobby. As an experiment in how a bike should look, function, and be produced it was ultimately a failure. Realistically much of the appeal of the bike is that it was produced in serious numbers rather than as a batch off experiment and the little built-to-a-price tells that become apparent when you look at the bike rather than an idealized picture of it make up a lot of its charm and industrial character.


----------



## kingsilver (Jul 26, 2010)

get the stick out of you butt and lower your nose down a little! i don't care how many bluebirds have that ugly braze - there's no way sanding the braze to fit the contour of the frame would compromise the integrity of the joint - get real - it's just poor workmanship!  yeah, the bikes were made for kids - but don't you think the other manufactures like schwinn scrutinized the bike for design and quality? frank schwinn probably told his employees that their jobs were safe. seems like you were at  westfield assembly plant when the bluebirds made - or you got your info from here say from the other experts in the hobby.


----------



## RMS37 (Jul 26, 2010)

Sir, it appears I was correct to be insulted by your previous post and I find the tone of your opening on your reply to be in extremely poor taste, still as you note, you are speaking from your opinions and beliefs so I’ll take it as a representation of that. In any case I’ve fully had enough, please be careful not to hurt yourself stomping your foot.

I have examined several Bluebirds in the flesh and seen photographs of dozens more and I would challenge you to find one with an original factory joint that meets your perception of quality workmanship. I would also challenge you to see if you could substantially “improve” the joint in five minutes but I doubt anyone is going to let you take a file to their Bluebird to prove your point. 

Obviously I was not at the factory when the bikes were produced. Perhaps you were? You seem to have a deep understanding of Westfield’s levels of quality control from the period in question. My opinions are my own and based on my own real life observations of how the Bluebirds were put together and the overall history of bicycles of the period, you are free take them or leave them. I offered my opinion in this case because you were apparently laboring under the misapprehension (and perhaps still are) that the joint on Jesse’s bike constituted a botched repair, not because I wanted to make you look ignorant. 

Back to your perceived quality issue; no one that I know of is trying to get you to assume the role of the final quality inspector on the Westfield production line and if they were it is just too late. The bikes are what they are and what they have been for 75 years. If you think the joint is ugly that is your opinion, if I like the joint that is mine. If you prefer a Schwinn to a Bluebird, no harm there. In the end we all know what opinions are like, some are just more so than others.


----------



## OldRider (Jul 26, 2010)

You're the man Phil! I am always amazed at your thorough knowledge on all things bike related, please don't think others here hold  a low opinion of your expertise.


----------



## kingsilver (Jul 26, 2010)

i guess my perception of quality does differ than yours - you see crap as quality - i see crap as crap - i don't care if the bike was made by westfield, schwinn, or yugo.  please give me a real good documented reason why the welds were made that way - since your such an expert and have xrayed the section in question thorougly. how can you tell the joint was'nt a repair - you can't. don't be such a cry baby - it's just a bike not a human being. if this is what you live for, then i feel sorry for you.... it's people like you and your coat- tail- hanging- posse that turn people off.


----------



## halfatruck (Jul 26, 2010)

Phil, I think you're trying to be too diplomatic, you've always been great in sharing your opinions and vast knowledge on vintage bicycles,
Thanks


----------



## 37fleetwood (Jul 26, 2010)

RMS37 said:


> Sir, it appears I was correct to be insulted by your previous post and I find the tone of your opening on your reply to be in extremely poor taste, still as you note, you are speaking from your opinions and beliefs so I’ll take it as a representation of that. In any case I’ve fully had enough, please be careful not to hurt yourself stomping your foot.
> 
> I have examined several Bluebirds in the flesh and seen photographs of dozens more and I would challenge you to find one with an original factory joint that meets your perception of quality workmanship. I would also challenge you to see if you could substantially “improve” the joint in five minutes but I doubt anyone is going to let you take a file to their Bluebird to prove your point.
> 
> ...



 Well, I suppose it was inevitable, the few will ruin it for the many. Eventually they turn on you. Once they do they're like a pack of rabid pugs, they snarl and grunt and complain, hoping you go away. I finally did. Took me about 2,000 posts before I got cranky with them. You'd better listen Phil, a guy who's probably never seen an Elgin is going to teach you about Bluebird production, this ought to be good. hold on I'm going to make some popcorn, the others ought to be along shortly.


----------



## RMS37 (Jul 26, 2010)

I want to thank my “Coat Tail Posse” for their remarks and back-up, When I said I had had enough I was not insinuating that I was leaving the CABE, someone would have to say mean things about CWC to get me out of here, but I was implying that I did not feel the need to further my Bluebird discussion with Kingsilver. Realistically I shouldn’t have expressed my sense of insult at his first reply to me or fanned the flames in my response. It is always hard not to take a stab at having the last word but I promise any further post regarding this issue will not be mine. 

As for my last words, if anyone looks objectively at my first reply I don’t think I can be accused of anything but attempting to add what I “know”, fact or fiction, to the discussion. I’m not so sure you could categorize my secondary replies as best practices diplomacy but what surprises me is Kingsilver’s vehemence that the joint is a either a repair or “crap” from the factory. 

It is true that this joint on Jesse’s bike could be a repair, if it is a repair it is a truly excellent repair because the person that repaired the frame matched the factory look of the joint perfectly and avoided the temptation to improve it. It is also true that the bike could be invisibly repaired elsewhere and then retouched perfectly or for that matter made entirely of Styrofoam under a thin layer of paint and the buyer won’t know until he receives it. We are all basing our observations on a photograph. 

My sense of the whole thing is that Kingsilver came to this discussion with some issues and agenda and hardcore doesn’t want to be disavowed of them. 

_To Kingsilver; I don’t owe you anything, certainly nothing more than my description of the joint area and construction techniques that I freely offered. If it is so important to you to comprehend it on a deeper level buy the bike and cut it up to your satisfaction._

_I am not a “crybaby”; I am angry at your behavior and won’t suffer abuse from you without calling you on it. You needn’t feel sorry for me I’m just fine and have a rich life with my family outside of the Bicycle Hobby. Anyway, it looks like you have plenty to be sorry for without taking me on_. 

To finish, I realize the direction this thread has gone after the real ideas were posted does nothing to further the hobby and the last posts should probably be stricken or rewritten in a more polite language. As my friend, the other "37", notes it is probably good for popcorn sales. I really should have bitten my tongue early on but one of my strongest peeves in the hobby is extreme attitude and hostility in the face of information.

Meanwhile, if you’ve had enough reality TV there is some good discussion going on the “history channel” about the mid thirties rainbow framed Schwinns. 

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?10776-Double-Curved-Bar-Schwinn-Frames


----------



## yeshoney (Jul 26, 2010)

I smell an air of jealousy Mr KingSilver.  Is it because of the current owner?  Future owner? or because you can't afford to buy it?  ( I know I can't).  Whatever the reason, Phil should not be attacked for any reason.  The man is a wealth of knowledge and opinion that he has shared and not forced you to believe.  If you don't buy it the least you can do is respectfully disagree.  And I do mean the Least you can do...
Joe


----------



## chitown (Jul 26, 2010)

*pudding*

View attachment 11385View attachment 11386View attachment 11387

I too thought it looked a little rough. Reminded me of when I chopped my Schwinn boys Racer and slapped some Bondo on my hack marks when I made my 1st mountain bike with a 1st gen trek suspension fork (85lbs or so...:eek. 

But not having seen any of these things (Bluebirds) up close myself I searched for pics. Found some and they seem to show some rough joints like Jesse bike. Seems like Elgin workers were just happy to be working and when the boss says he needs production lines to move faster... they tend to move faster and miss the little things. If you want clean smooth brazing, get a handmade Ritchey. Or go weldless and get a Silver King!!!


----------



## 53Phantom (Jul 26, 2010)

Looks like the ones that  get repainted get that area cleaned up too.


----------



## 37fleetwood (Jul 26, 2010)

there definitely is a difference between production and show quality. even the expensive ones had to come down the line, and that meant "time is money" applied. same applies to the collector, there are some like Phil who are really valuable and some that are not so valuable, I would rather have accurate information I didn't like rather than bad information that was what I wanted to hear.
let me warn you from experience, there used to be a bunch of guys like Phil on this site, they have quit posting over the years due to this kind of behavior. those of you who appreciate a good site with knowledgeable people need to not tolerate poor manners. demand respect when you see disrespect. Scott has provided the site but it is the community that makes it what it is.


----------



## Strings-n-Spokes (Jul 26, 2010)

Coat Tail Posse?  Is there an organized following of Phil that I do not know of? I'll join the CTP!!  Make a t-shirt and where it to LeMay Concours if we can make it.  Maybe I can get a deal on those event posters.  

Seriously though, Phil I am gonna go ahead and apologize for whatshisname I think someone should, and he might not.  

I do think that it might be a good idea to piss you off from time to time, however, because it does make you a little more productive in your responses - and we all become better and more knowledgable enthusiasts be cause of that.   That being said this is my third revision of this post.  The second one was pretty lame.  The first version could have put me in jail (disrespect begets disprespect)


----------



## teisco (Jul 27, 2010)

Ok,,this is fun. Guess I will go and put some grease and grime on my Monark. I always defer to the experts even though they can be a bit preachy and the only bad joint I had was in the early sixties.


----------



## sm2501 (Jul 27, 2010)

Some great information came out in this thread. All I ask of all members is to be respectful to each other, watch the nastiness and have fun!


----------



## Classicriders (Jul 27, 2010)

Bottom line is that the buyer will decide how much it matters.


----------



## Adamtinkerer (Jul 27, 2010)

-Jesse may be the "Pope of Welding", but he's the 'Moron of Marriages'! ...Phil, I'm glad you've taken this affront with grace and good humor! A similar flaming was the reason Crassly left RRB, a loss for us all, though he still posts here occasionally. As for myself, I don't claim to be the Pope of anything, I just keep my bike books next to the computer, and enjoy helping folks figure out their old bikes!


----------



## Freqman1 (Jul 27, 2010)

Phil,
    Actually I'm surprised that you engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent--kinda like bringing an Uzi to a knife fight! v/r Shawn


----------



## sm2501 (Jul 27, 2010)

I meant to mention that the Bluebird and the Skylark that sold earlier were sold to Jessie from an East Coast collector.


----------



## yeshoney (Jul 27, 2010)

Just a guess but I think I recognize the background in that pic as being from New jersey )

Joe



sm2501 said:


> I meant to mention that the Bluebird and the Skylark that sold earlier were sold to Jessie from an East Coast collector.
> 
> View attachment 11406


----------



## sm2501 (Jul 27, 2010)

Nope....a little farther South.



yeshoney said:


> Just a guess but I think I recognize the background in that pic as being from New jersey )
> 
> Joe


----------



## Springer Tom (Jul 27, 2010)

I'll gladly join The Coat Tail Posse! I'm fairly new to this site and look for posts from Phil just because he can provide great detail with his vast knowledge of our hobby, even if I'm not interested in the bikes he's talking about.Ditto matching wits with an unarmed opponent. Does it even matter,repair or no repair, what the hell it looks like?Aren't we talking about a freakin' Bluebird? Wasn't this bicycle built in the 30's? The same era when car manufacturers were using square headed bolts to hold their engines together? Phil, please don't let these kind of people get to you, though I doubt he did. I'd be willing to bet you have forgotten more than this guy will ever know. The rest of you guys are great as well, I've had the opportunity to meet a few of you at some of the shows in the NY/New England area. Just adding my 2 cents worth......Tom Marsh


----------



## 53Phantom (Jul 29, 2010)

So..whats the deal with this bike. It sold for $14000.00 on Ebay and now it is listed again ??


----------



## OldRider (Jul 29, 2010)

It never met the reserve as far as I know.


----------



## 53Phantom (Jul 29, 2010)

The reserve was met.


----------

