# Unknown Hercules Lightweight



## velo-vecchio (Jan 15, 2021)

I have an unknown Hercules with a headbadge I've never seen before. Have a look and let me know if you have any ideas. This bike has a mix of parts. Rear hub is ND Model D. Has Hercules chainring, Super Jet grips and Dunlop-Cambridge saddle. The lugs resemble a Hercules Royal Prince I saw on eBay. I appreciate you looking.


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## velo-vecchio (Jan 15, 2021)

Has tubular rims/tires but then again that could have been swapped out at any time.


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## dnc1 (Jan 15, 2021)

The headbadge should look like this.....




It's missing the centre plaque which was celluloid I think.
It's quite common to find them in that condition.
I would think it dates from the 1950s or later judging by the chrome fork crown cover.
Some side view photos would possibly help with identification.
I can't imagine that the ND model D hub in conjunction with sprint rims and tubs is an original fitment.
Likewise the bar system combo, but difficult to say without  better photos.


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## SirMike1983 (Jan 15, 2021)

I agree it has been parted together. The original wheels would have been English pattern with English hubs. It looks like the old-style "Hercules" chain ring. Red frame with white fenders was one indicator of a Canadian market bike. Better pictures will help. The lugs are not much a help with specific dates because they used those oval lugs for quite awhile.


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## dubsey55 (Jan 15, 2021)

Lucky "7",style seat pin is certainly pre war.    Could be original , if 26.4 mm(?) hercules frame size. Fork not drilled for caliper brake.   Interesting bike, better/more pictures would be good!  Many bicycles shipped from England to USA during 1939-40. Helped offset cost of food and war supplies from America.  God please bless and protect our two great nations now, as then, and forever!!


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## velo-vecchio (Jan 15, 2021)




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## velo-vecchio (Jan 15, 2021)

this photo is likely of zero value. There’s a 2-digit etching (or maybe is just a scratch) that I can’t make out. No serial number present under bb.


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## SirMike1983 (Jan 15, 2021)

1930s - 40s would be my guess. The gallows seat post was used after the war as well for a few years, but it does look pre-1950s to me. Perhaps it was always a single speed with coaster brake, though they would have used something like an Eadie or Perry or similar English coaster and Hercules rims. I used to own a 1946 Hercules Model C with a very similar frame and coaster brake, though mine had front rod brake as well.





Mine originally had a Perry single speed coaster with 10/1946 date code on the arm, though I later retrofitted it with a Sturmey 3-speed coaster to make it a little better on hills. I later sold it and bought in its place a Phillips with 28 inch wheels.

I think yours might be a little earlier with the old-style chain ring and that set up.


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## velo-vecchio (Jan 18, 2021)

SirMike1983 said:


> 1930s - 40s would be my guess. The gallows seat post was used after the war as well for a few years, but it does look pre-1950s to me. Perhaps it was always a single speed with coaster brake, though they would have used something like an Eadie or Perry or similar English coaster and Hercules rims. I used to own a 1946 Hercules Model C with a very similar frame and coaster brake, though mine had front rod brake as well.
> 
> View attachment 1339714
> 
> ...



That all jives with what I am seeing and thinking. At some point this had all British parts. As I was cleaning it up I noticed an interesting detail on the fork dropout. Left side has a “C” contour to receive wheel spindle and keep in place. Also I haven’t measured but these Model D hubs are the right (short) width to fit the spacing. So I can see why they were used.

other than that it’s a pretty straightforward frame with not many details.


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## Oilit (Jan 21, 2021)

I have a pre-war (I think) Hercules similar to yours posted here:








						Pre-War Hercules? | Vintage Lightweight Bicycles
					

I know Hercules bikes are hard to date to a specific year, but I believe this one is pre-war, just because the only other "Hercules Sports Model" I could find on here is definitely pre-war: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/hercules-sports-model.96604/ Unfortunately, this one doesn't have the...




					thecabe.com
				



And comparing the two bikes, your fenders look like they're probably original, but the fender stays are a style I haven't seen before. If they're original, they may give a clue to the age. Can we get some close-ups of the attachments to the fenders?


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## SirMike1983 (Jan 21, 2021)

The stays looks like American-style replacements to me. They don't make use of the eyelets on the frame. I suspect the originals would have been the old-style wire stays into the eyelets.


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## velo-vecchio (Jan 22, 2021)

I'll post some pics tonight - the fenders are definitely different thank yours OILIT. These are solid metal fenders with a defined peak in the middle and an off-white cream color. I really want to ride and keep this bike. But I really should move it along. You never have this problem right? (ha)


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## juvela (Jan 22, 2021)

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hello velo-vecchio,

thanks very much for sharing this interesting find

appears frame bits and some of the fittings issue from Brampton

these include lugs, shell, crown, crown cap, ends, headset & pedals

Brampton shells were typically marked with a two-digit raised model number,  there is a lump in the middle of the underside of the shell which might indicate a filling in of the mold where these were positioned

the knurling pattern on the head fittings shows them to be Brampton; Brampton head parts were catalogued individually at this time and a cycle manufacturer could mix/match them to some degree

headset appears it may be of the floating-u pattern races so ball size shall likely be 1/8" rather than the more commonly encountered 5/32"

should you repack it take care to invert cycle prior to disassembly and have a container positioned the catch all the bits which shall come tumbling out

these pedals with the H in the plates were done for Hercules and a version without H appeared also as the Phillips Apollo

please post an update on the machine as you are able to learn more of it...   


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## Oilit (Jan 22, 2021)

velo-vecchio said:


> I'll post some pics tonight - the fenders are definitely different thank yours OILIT. These are solid metal fenders with a defined peak in the middle and an off-white cream color. I really want to ride and keep this bike. But I really should move it along. You never have this problem right? (ha)



One of the reasons I think the fenders may be original is that Hercules sometimes used cream fenders. I've got a black Hercules Kestrel (late'40's as near as I can tell) with cream colored fenders. The fender stays are different, @SirMike1983 may be right and they're replacements, but the bracket that attaches the rear fender to the frame between the seat stays looks the same from what I can see. I'm looking forward to more pictures!








						Hercules Kestrel? | Vintage Lightweight Bicycles
					

I have $175.00 in this bike, which is more than I would usually put in an old English 3 speed, but this one has some features I haven't seen before. From what I've found on the internet, I think it's a Hercules Kestrel, and the date on the hub is 1951. It needs a lot of detail work, but I did...




					thecabe.com


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## Oilit (Jan 22, 2021)

velo-vecchio said:


> I'll post some pics tonight - the fenders are definitely different thank yours OILIT. These are solid metal fenders with a defined peak in the middle and an off-white cream color. I really want to ride and keep this bike. But I really should move it along. You never have this problem right? (ha)



And no, I never have that problem, my only problem is walking through the house without tripping over old bikes.


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## juvela (Jan 22, 2021)

Oilit said:


> And no, I never have that problem, my only problem is walking through the house without tripping over old bikes.



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...just so long as you are careful not to disturb those "bombers in repose"...  


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## SirMike1983 (Jan 22, 2021)

It's not the fenders I'm thinking  about, I'm talking about the fender stays not being original - that you could have original fenders but the original wire stays got damaged, so someone used US-made replacement stays. The shape and type of fender here doesn't look off to me. It's an interesting bike and with clean up, should be a rider.


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## Oilit (Jan 22, 2021)

SirMike1983 said:


> It's not the fenders I'm thinking  about, I'm talking about the fender stays not being original - that you could have original fenders but the original wire stays got damaged, so someone used US-made replacement stays. The shape and type of fender here doesn't look off to me. It's an interesting bike and with clean up, should be a rider.



I second the motion!


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## velo-vecchio (Jan 22, 2021)

I’m slow but am now with you. Here are more pics. And I found number stamped on left rear dropout. Reads AR. 525. My son says AH.


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## velo-vecchio (Jan 22, 2021)

More pics of interest. Saddle and headset. Headset photos are for JUVELA enjoy.


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## velo-vecchio (Jan 22, 2021)

Also adding photos of points of contact for fenders for n case they have value.


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## SirMike1983 (Jan 22, 2021)

The badge on the saddle is great.


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## Oilit (Jan 24, 2021)

velo-vecchio said:


> Also adding photos of points of contact for fenders for n case they have value.
> 
> View attachment 1344136
> 
> ...



@velo-vecchio, the close up of your head tube got me wondering about the "flare" at the top, evidently to adapt to your headset. I've got a 1954 "Royal Master", built by Hercules for AMF, and it makes for an interesting comparison - the oval cut-outs in the lugs are the same, but the flare under the head set is distinctly different. I'd like to know when they changed that detail.


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## Threespeedmafia (Feb 12, 2021)

I have a similar Hercules lightweight that I enjoy riding about.  Hub is an AW "Patent Applied For" and the head badge is of the standard "missing the celluloid insert" variety.  Here are a few shots of the bike before and after.  The original Dunlop saddle, I'm afraid, is not rideable so it was replaced with a sprung Brooks.  The catalogue picture is not necessarily the same model, but it was the best catalogue picture I could find of this basic frame.


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## SirMike1983 (Feb 12, 2021)

That's outstanding. It looks like a late 1930s era bike, and what's unusual (at least here in the US) is that it's a tall frame model. That frame and wheel combination is often an excellent fit for an adult rider. The condition looks pretty good overall. You have an excellent old bike there. What kind of shifter is on the bike?


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## Threespeedmafia (Feb 12, 2021)

It has the long handle SA trigger which is one of my favorites.  I don't have a close up on the bike but I have a close up of when I had the whole bike apart cleaning everything. 

And I attached a picture of the bicycle on a Tweed Ride in Huntsville (2019) with my son riding our mid-30s Hercules rod-braked loop frame.  And a pic of the shifter on the loop frame.


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## SirMike1983 (Feb 12, 2021)

That silver-faced shifter is great. While the AW hub goes back to 1936, they were not widely available until 1938 for production reasons. At the same time, Sturmey was working up the early "click" shifters for the handlebars such as you have there starting in 1937, with announcement of the shifter and production in 1938. The patent for the first type click shifter was applied for in summer 1937. This eventually was GB patent #498820. The shifter was announced in 1938 as a new innovation for shifting the 3-speed hubs, particularly the AW as well.  The trigger was available by spring 1938. The second war interrupted production. 

The other shifter you have is the old-style barrel, which is an even older shifter. 

When I saw the age of the bike and the lack of a quadrant shifter I was hoping it would be something like what you showed. They're seldom seen parts in the US and really something different.


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## Threespeedmafia (Feb 12, 2021)

SirMike1983 said:


> That silver-faced shifter is great. While the AW hub goes back to 1936, they were not widely available until 1938 for production reasons. At the same time, Sturmey was working up the early "click" shifters for the handlebars such as you have there starting in 1937, with announcement of the shifter and production in 1938. The patent for the first type click shifter was applied for in summer 1937. This eventually was GB patent #498820. The shifter was announced in 1938 as a new innovation for shifting the 3-speed hubs, particularly the AW as well.  The trigger was available by spring 1938. The second war interrupted production.
> 
> The other shifter you have is the old-style barrel, which is an even older shifter.
> 
> When I saw the age of the bike and the lack of a quadrant shifter I was hoping it would be something like what you showed. They're seldom seen parts in the US and really something different.



Thank you for the information.  I was fortunate to have found this bicycle.  The seller had advertised a mid 50s Hercules with painted darts that was really sharp.  He had cleaned and reworked the whole bicycle but by the time I contacted him, he already had a buyer coming to see it.  He reached back out and told me that it had sold but that he had access to a collector's bikes and he was pulling one or two at a time and fixing them up and selling them for the collector.  I told him to keep me in mind and about a week or so later he contacted me with a picture of this bike and said he didn't know anything about it and that the AW hub didn't have a date.  We made a deal for him to leave it untouched and I drove to St Louis to pick it up as I felt confident it was fairly early.  I am very happy with how much life the paint and the decals still had.  Would have been nice if the head badge had been complete but it perfectly matches my loop frame's badge.  Both are missing the middle part.


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## SirMike1983 (Feb 12, 2021)

The no-date hubs are uncommon but not entirely rare. They appear to have come from the late 1930s right before the second war, the 1940s just after the war. I heard it that maybe they stretched the very early 1950s (but those I've seen were 1930s-40s era hubs). The "Patent Applied For" hubs with no date I would estimate to be from shortly before the second war, 1938-40 time period. I actually have a PAF no-date hub on my 1930s Phillips roadster. It's a great hub. I've never seen a complete explanation for why they had no dates. We know that they put dates on 1930s and 40s AWs, but apparently not all of them. Perhaps it was in a rush to turn them out.


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