# Harley Davidson Head Badge Controversy



## 47jchiggins

So......I know this will probably be a bit of a hot topic but I wanted to share some interesting information. I have had this HD badge but have been hesitant to show it for concern of authenticity as the general consensus has been, if it's not a stamped, tin badge, then its a reproduction. I have had a few "In the know" collectors, both motorcycle and bicycle,  who have either seen this badge in person or in very detailed photos who believe this to be authentic, well I hope this email from HD, clears that up.

Hi Todd.
Yes, that’s a Harley-Davidson bicycle head badge. I’d put it closer to the end of the run of the bicycle production, about 1920 to 1921.

Harley-Davidson Motor Company

Milwaukee, Wisconsin




*********Always and Never, two words that will get you in trouble in this hobby *********

Thanks,

Todd


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## Balloontyre

Todd man, 
It's a Fake, sorry bud.

Ivo


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## THE STIG

like the news........


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## carlitos60

Balloontyre said:


> Todd man,
> It's a Fake, sorry bud.
> 
> Do You Have a Harley????? Then, Who Cares About the Badge!!!
> There are a Lot of Fake Bikes Around!!!!
> Enjoy the Harley or Sell It to Me!!!


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## Goldenindian

Interesting answer he gave you.....I have tried to contact the head of the archives, with no response. Thanks for sharing.


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## bricycle

aren't some of them like cast bronze with a "burlap" textured background?


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## bike

As far as I have ever seen, or from people I have trusted as knowledgeable, all the real ones are stamped. I have never heard of "late" badges being cast.  These badges have been done for many years in many iterations.
The HD museum has authenticated bikes I know to be fakes or tributes.  They have bikes in their collection that have fake badges... a few turn overs of the people in charge and this is probably forgotten...(keep in mind in the 80s they "Corrected" one of the earliest HD motorcycles that had been in there possession since pre 1910 and there was a lot of talk about how they F'd history for ever)

This is my OPINION based on years of following HD bikes however I could be wrong- I try to be open minded but on this subject I am fairly convinced and it would take a lot for me to change  my opinion.
2cents


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## bike

bricycle said:


> aren't some of them like cast bronze with a "burlap" textured background?



some of the repros.... not any of the ogs as far as I know see above-


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## catfish




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## bricycle

catfish said:


> View attachment 690750



ok, so what is this example? real? stamped? cast? how could they stamp such background detail? copper plate?


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## catfish

bricycle said:


> ok, so what is this example? real? stamped? cast? how could they stamp such background detail? copper plate?




Real Deal . Stamped.


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## Andrew Gorman

Take a close look at the font used for "Milwaukee" in the first badge- not really appropriate for the period.  The background pattern is cut into the die and the brass blank is whammed into it.


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## rustjunkie

Andrew Gorman said:


> Take a close look at the font used for "Milwaukee" in the first badge- not really appropriate for the period.




Exactly what I thought.



Andrew Gorman said:


> The background pattern is cut into the die and the brass blank is whammed into it.




Todd's badge looks etched to me.


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## 47jchiggins

If I were going to reproduce a badge, I would make every attempt to make it look as close to the original or what others perceived as original, as possible.  My badge bares no resemblance to the stamped badge, it's even slightly larger, why would someone take such painstaking measures to fake a badge that looked fake?

I am certain that 100 years ago when these bikes were produced, the first iterations didn't just pop out as exact duplicates of each other. There were parts being supplied by several different manufacturers and if something ran out, what did they do, hault production or did they make substitutions? Same with the end of production, HD had to know when they were winding down production that substitutions were going to be made because they were no longer ordering or producing large quantities of parts.

Anyone who says they "NEVER" did this or the "ALWAYS" did that, 100 years ago, is frankly full of themselves. WW1 changed they way EVERTHING was manufactured. Some materials were more readily available than others and substitutions were common. Look at automotive manufacturers today, they have modes like, Special Edition, Limited, etc, usually because of changes occurring from one year to the next and reduction of parts production but they still produced a vehicle.


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## 47jchiggins

Andrew Gorman said:


> Take a close look at the font used for "Milwaukee" in the first badge- not really appropriate for the period.  The background pattern is cut into the die and the brass blank is whammed into it.



I am trying to see a difference between the font in "Milwaukee" from the badge I posted and the stamped badge, I'm not seeing it, sorry.....


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## redline1968

Besides it being brass and awkward looking, what bothers me is damage on the badge.  It just looks like it was done for deception as to make it  look older.  That to me is a major visual red flag.  Definitely a copy to me.


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## Rust_Trader

47jchiggins said:


> I am trying to see a difference between the font in "Milwaukee" from the badge I posted and the stamped badge, I'm not seeing it, sorry.....
> 
> View attachment 690927
> 
> View attachment 690929
> 
> View attachment 690930





Last pic was mine and ended up being a fake. The letters from the og looks different. The fake ones are a bit more squared


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## barracuda

The words in the cast badge, "MILWAUKEE, U.S.OF A.", are set in Helvetica, a font that was not published until 1957. 

In my opinion.


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## 47jchiggins

redline1968 said:


> Besides it being brass and awkward looking, what bothers me is damage on the badge.  It just looks like it was done for deception as to make it  look older.  That to me is a major visual red flag.  Definitely a copy to me.



I must admit, the damage has been something that I too have questioned. But how did someone make it? It's not cast, it  doesn't look etched, it appears to have been struck, pressed or rolled using dies. I have several period examples of badges made in with same material in the same method. Someone would have had to go through a lot of trouble making a die that was INCORRECT, that just doesn't make sense.
So what do you think, is the badge below a fake?


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## 47jchiggins

barracuda said:


> The words in the cast badge, "MILWAUKEE, U.S.OF A.", are set in Helvetica, a font that was not published until 1957.
> 
> In my opinion.
> 
> View attachment 690951



I do not think my badge is cast......it is too uniform in thickness and devoid of imperfections normally associated with cast objects this size.
So the "MILLWAUKEE, U.S.OF A" " is a different font than mine? My badge letters are clearly more flat due to wear and different methods of manufacturering but I don't see a difference in the font when I look at the outlines or base of the letter, am I missing something?


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## Balloontyre

It's a Fake,  no other way about it.

All fonts are diff from real to the repop, I see it clearly.  If you have a real one on hand you will notice another difference that images dont show.
   -The weight-  real are super light, I'm sure yours is heavy



I , as much as the next guy am always looking and hoping for a new discovery,  in this case it's just not so.

As an aside...your letter from H-D is Not an authentication of your badge as a real authentic, its your interpretation of the letter.


Read post by Bike again, exactly spot on.


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## 47jchiggins

Rust_Trader said:


> Last pic was mine and ended up being a fake. The letters from the og looks different. The fake ones are a bit more squared



This is exactly what I'm talking about. When I was at the Davenport MC swap, I saw an HD badge that looked like the stamped badge, even had an impression on the reverse. When I picked it up, I immediately noticed the weight and thickness, someone made an absolutely beautiful CASTING of the stamped badge, if only it was a bit lighter and thinner, it could have passed.....that's what I'm talking about. Why make a fake that looks like a fake?

The badge below is made to look like the STAMPED badge but it is cast, not stamped.......my badge is STAMPED or pressed from a piece of what was once flat stock, not cast......


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## Balloontyre

Please call,


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## cyclingday

Here's one that's a little bit different.
It's the bottle cap fastened type.


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## redline1968

Both badges look like they were hand made and not by machine. The edges around the  lettering are not smooth more like jagged.. that to me indicates copies. The brass badge holes appear to be slightly wider then the other badge next to it.  I feel some one was a engraver and made the brass badge (gave it some patina) for a bike that had slightly wider spaced holes.


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## Andrew Gorman

I think the suspect badge is photoetched, run through a vibratory tumbler and run over on the garage floor..  What do these things sell for?  I could go into production.


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## bricycle

Oh, I see it now... the *"*a" of Harley Davidson should be flatter on top and not more curved.


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## bikewhorder

47jchiggins said:


> This is exactly what I'm talking about. When I was at the Davenport MC swap, I saw an HD badge that looked like the stamped badge, even had an impression on the reverse. When I picked it up, I immediately noticed the weight and thickness, someone made an absolutely beautiful CASTING of the stamped badge, if only it was a bit lighter and thinner, it could have passed.....that's what I'm talking about. Why make a fake that looks like a fake?
> 
> The badge below is made to look like the STAMPED badge but it is cast, not stamped.......my badge is STAMPED or pressed from a piece of what was once flat stock, not cast......
> 
> View attachment 690980
> 
> View attachment 690981




Making an exact replica of anything is difficult. 99% of repop parts have glaring differences from the originals.  It does seem like if you were going to go through the effort of making reproduction parts you might as well get it right but without the same tooling it can be almost impossible.


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## rustjunkie

47jchiggins said:


>




Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but this badge is photoengraved/etched.


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## ejlwheels

Yes, the Pontiac badge is acid etched.
At some point after its removal it was run over in the driveway


47jchiggins,
your badge was acid etched
then hammered repeatedly to make the scuff marks or nicks
and then varnished or baked with grease on
the edges of the letters and outlines (or cliffs) are not worn or burnished at all
which they would be if the badge were old enough to have all those bang marks
The Milwaukee font should have little tiny serifs or spurs
Like Copperplate Gothic created around 1901
Look closely at the bottom of the A


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## 47jchiggins

redline1968 said:


> Both badges look like they were hand made and not by machine. The edges around the  lettering are not smooth more like jagged.. that to me indicates copies. The brass badge holes appear to be slightly wider then the other badge next to it.  I feel some one was a engraver and made the brass badge (gave it some patina) for a bike that had slightly wider spaced holes.


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## Iverider

barracuda said:


> The words in the cast badge, "MILWAUKEE, U.S.OF A.", are set in Helvetica, a font that was not published until 1957.
> 
> In my opinion.
> 
> View attachment 690951




You mean not all San Serif fonts are exactly the same?  The width of the letters in the repro badge are wider than the Original as well. It's subtle to most, but it's screaming at me in the side by side comparison.


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## bricycle

easy way to tell if a Harley badge is real or not....
Just submit a thread showing the badge and say "look what I just picked up".
If your mail box gets filled, it is real. if no mail, well......


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## bike

OK (while we are looking for the truth) here is a little story:
A guy had an early NOS b6 may have been Goodrich (At Doc Gibsons show in Costa mesa- long time ago) it had drop center wheels- the bike was nos- he could not sell it till he put nos s-2s on it.

So lets say that it is REAL- that is good for your own satisfaction but there would be doubt about it in many minds-you would probably have to put the earlier badge on it to realize maximum value (if that is your goal.)
2cents OPINION as always.
PS ditto on the post that it looks like it was aged on purpose.


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## bike

47jchiggins said:


> ....
> So what do you think, is the badge below a fake?
> 
> []



NO-real- BUT IT DOES NOT HAVE ANY OF THE DEEP SAME SHAPED DINGS PRACTICALLY IN A ROW WHICH SEEM TO HAVE BEEN MADE BY A POINTED TOOL
shoot sorry for the caps


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## StoneWoods

Also look at the spacing of the "of" on the brass badge. Looks like this: OG :"U.S.ofA"
The brass "repop" "U.S. of A." If that makes any sense.


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## bricycle

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Davi...%3A1677d59b15f0a887d85c9964fffbe780%7Ciid%3A1


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## Saving Tempest

Krautwaggen said:


> You mean not all San Serif fonts are exactly the same?  The width of the letters in the repro badge are wider than the Original as well. It's subtle to most, but it's screaming at me in the side by side comparison.




Helvetica and Arial seem to be in the same font family. They are what you look for when you want a clean looking sans serif logo or letter font. A more exotic version that is thicker is Zurich, which is available with many word processing suites and easy to add to for font cache.


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## fordsnake

Krautwaggen said:


> You mean not all San Serif fonts are exactly the same?  The width of the letters in the repro badge are wider than the Original as well. It's subtle to most, but it's screaming at me in the side by side comparison.




All Designs, Typography and Orthography of early art, logos, badges and decals was hand lettered (no computers, Letraset, or digital typesets). Often artwork was drawn over-sized on illiustration board, then given to an engraver, who would transfer the design to scale with a pantograph tool, then with the skills of a jeweler cut the intricate design in an "investment casting" or lost-wax casting. It was then turn over to a metal worker or foundry for mass production - a steel die of the design was made pressing it while red hot it into a cavity for embossing.


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## Freqman1

Welcome back Carlton! You back for good or just a stop over? V/r Shawn


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## fordsnake

Freqman1 said:


> Welcome back Carlton! You back for good or just a stop over? V/r Shawn



Thanks Shawn. I'm home for a few months.


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## hoofhearted

*Am somewhat reluctant to display this next badge in a CABE thread ... 

This badge is the daddy of all reproduced, acid etched  H-D badges 
made by Nostalgic Reflections of Veradale, WA. 

It has taken me a week to learn how to drift fotos from my Motorola G3 
to my wife's laptop. Am going to post closeups now, and then step off.  

Tomorrow I will do more 'splainin' ... as for tonight ... I am done - waaay tired. 

Have been in communication with Todd a.k.a. (47jchiggins).  
Will be commenting on his so-called controversial H-D badge.

PLEASE BE PATIENT AND SAVE YOUR COMMENTS "TIL AFTER I GET 
THIS ENTRY EDITED AND FULLY WRITTEN TOMORROW >>>>> THANK YOU 

....... patric







HERE WE GO ...................




 
Number  1 ^^^
*




*Number  2 ^^^



 
Number  3 ^^^





 
Number  4 ^^^

*



*Number  5  ^^^*
*



 
Number  6  ^^^




 
Number  7  ^^^




 
Number  8  ^^^

*



*Number  9  ^^^*





*Number  10 ^^^*





*Number  11 ^^^




 
Number  12 ^^^




 
Number  13  ^^^




 
Number  14  ^^^




 
Number  15  ^^^




 
Number  16  ^^^


*



*Number  17  ^^^

Todd (47jchiggins) ... thank you for mailing your badge to me.  
There are things that come to light when a badge is in the hand ... 
and not be limited to observation thru a foto.



*




*Number 18  ^^^*





*Number  19  ^^^*




*This foto is the same as Number 1 at the top.  

I am gonna refer to this particular badge as the Nostalgic-Reflections Mystery H-D Badge.

....... For reasons you will put together in Entry #46 of this thread.*


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## hoofhearted

*
After having seen AND handled Todd's unusual, rogue H-D badge ...
I have reached a conclusion that works for me.  It is a stamped badge
... not acid-etched ... and is authentic.  

The badge shows no evidence of etching-exhaust bubbles around
magnified edges within the design.  The back of the badge shows
pressure-formed, reverse letters ... subtle, but they are there,

Sadly,  the badge APPEARS to have been futzed-with at some time
in it's past.  There are a bunch of marks of a certain-style in a limited
debris-field ... and these marks appear to be limited to just one debris-
field (maybe a little salting elsewhere, but still quite-limited).  Then the
''tool'' that made the marks is changed-out for a different ''tool'' ... and
whatever was ''salted'' by the first-tool ... gets salted in adjacent areas
by tool Number Two ... and so on.*

*Whoever did the salting may have been desperate to have the badge
perceived as authentic ... (I believe this badge is authentic) ... and
 decided to age-flavor the thing.*

*A poor stratedgey,* even if I can't spell the word.

*The reader can feel free to believe whatever she/he wants to believe ...
and I am nothing more than an old pirate with a critical eye AND an opinion,
just like you.  

Please note that this typer has no plans to argue opinions back and forth 
with the reader.

Did I mention the badge is ''gassing'' ?   It gives-off a distinctly-metallic odor,
often natural to metal that oxidizes over time.



 



 *


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## Freqman1

Patric,
   Possessing not even a nano-gram of your knowledge on these badges I was unable to reach a conclusion either way after examining this badge. The thing that had me leaning towards not authentic was the hole spacing. Other than that there was nothing either way that led me to believe this badge is not authentic. Regarding the random marks I suggested to Todd that this badge may have been in a tool box or something similar for years and the marks were accumulated over time as tools were thrown in the box. Those are my thoughts for what they are worth. V/r Shawn


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## Balloontyre

What size is this badge in comparison to those that have been found on bicycles?


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## hoofhearted

*Moving forward ... Where Did the Nostalgic Reflections H-D Badge Originate ?

Maybe 1995, Jerry at N-R fones me with a lead on what he says is an
OG H-D badge.  

Keep in mind ... in 1995 VERY FEW COLLECTORS had ever laid eyes
on a H-D badge.  Paranoid times they were.  The owner of an authentic 
H-D badge would never share images of it with fellow collectors ...
unless, of course, money was to be made by at least one of them.
And besides ... What Did One Even Look Like ?

Why ... look at us here ... right now ... just a-sharin' and feelin' all 
friendly ... kinda like we were all gonna walk to the drugstore in
Mayberry ... buy ourselves an ice-cream cone .. then go to sit on
Andy's porch and share bicycle stories.

Times are different.  And I do like this current-period waaay better
than I enjoyed those mid-90's.

Back to Jerry at N-R ... Jerry has a gentleman that wants to gather
and restore as many original H-D bicycles as humanly possibly.   
The gentleman was a retired exec at H-D ... and his plans are to help 
grow their museum and history center.

After I was offered the Nostalgic-Reflections Mystery H-D Badge ... I was
asked if I would mind if N-R reproduced a few of them for use by the H-D
gentleman.  Said I wanted the one Jerry located.  And I received it.  Repop
'til your heart's content.

H-D gentleman hires me to ''antique'' the dozen N-R badges he received.
Said I didn't want money ... looking for H-D Bicycle historical knowledge.
Got it .. along with some fotos printed using factory-original glass negs.

I was happy.

Let's peep some stuff, not necessarily from the H-D Factory but some of 
stuff N-R produced, also.



 




 



 



Please compare font subtleties in the N-R Badge and the factory literature.


 *

*

 



Let's continue our peepin' .......



 




 





Now somehow, three badges came outta the acid-bath with a very-unique etch ...



 Only 3 ... and I got a chance to own them.



Jerry could not, or ever, replicate these particular badges.  One was sold to a collector,
like ourselves.  His badge ended-up at H-D.  

I held on to my textured rarities.  Now keep in mind ... it's the mid-90's ... and I had NEVER
seen any other type of H-D badge.  Had no idea that a stamped-copper badge was also out 
there.

In the meantime ... I gets a call from the owner of Mid-Ohio Harley-Davidson in Springfield, OH ...

He wants to own the 1917 Motorcyke I'm building.  I know it is an original as I bought the 
frame / fork from Shoe3 ... my budz - Phil Scott.

It had red powdercoat on it -- but very straight ...

It also had badge, screw-holes that matched the Nostalgic-Reflections Mystery H-D Badge ...
later on found out the stamped-copper badge would not work .. the Mystery-Badge has holes
a wee-bit wider-spaced than the stamped-copper specimens.

Brian .. at Mid-Ohio told me he wanted the ''texture-badge'' ... not the smooth, Mystery-Badge.
I know I posted a nice foto of this 1917 Motocyke ... just cannot find it within the CABE ... 
and I do not have access to any other computer except for this one that my wife gave me
permission to use .......

MORE STUFF ............



 


Noted some flaws in the mystery-badge ...
talked with Jerry ... he decided to remove them from the
art-work that he used to make his repro's.



*





*Nothin' left to say ..................................*


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## hoofhearted

*
Just when I believed the earliest Davis DAYTONs ...
(Davis produced bicycles as early as 1892 -- and
the DAYTON beginning in 1895) were equipped
with a name badge incorporating a large ''D'' as 
a major part of the design .....




*


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## frankster41

The real deal


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## fordsnake

From what Patric has suggested and what has been viewed here as original badges; the letters of Harley Davidson were blind embosssed - referring to a method of pressing or stamping an image into metal, creating a three dimensional relief of the letters.




Debossing or etching is a simpler technique, a method of depressing or etching the surface. Note; the letters are not raised or relief from the background.




These three badges were produced from the same DNA...a dembossed technique.




.


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## hoofhearted

*My Dear Carlton ... I know that I'm not the only
CABEr that has missed your presence within
many, many threads on the forum.  Hope you
will be with us for a long time ... at least thru
the Winter.

You Are Appreciated ......

....... patric*


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## fordsnake

Patric, thank you for the kind words. Depending on my internet connection here in Brazil (I'm learning to adjust to frustration) LOL, I'm here with you guys.


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## Balloontyre

@hoofhearted Patric man 
@47jchiggins Todd man 
@Freqman1 Shawn man

Very nice catching up with all of you and sharing dialog over this badge. We can agree to disagree on this and very likely things in the future, it's what keeps the juices flowing,  or like Patric would say "makes your socks go up and down", LOL.

Rock on my Bicycle and Military Brothers.


Just to clarify the discussions, the badge this thread is about is #1 pictured below.

Later days and better lays
Peace,
Ivo


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## 47jchiggins

A big THANKS to all who have contributed to this thread and keeping an open mind. To Patric @hoofhearted, thank you for taking the time to comment and for posting your Mystery HD Badge, it is quite unique and very interesting to say the least. This is a “ Take no Prisoners” forum and my only regret is how I started this thread. The wording I chose came across “snarky” and for that, I apologize.  We still have a lot to learn about these bikes and probably just scratching the surface of the information that could be out there. For example, not long ago, I acquired and posted a 1917 HD Bicycle parts list which was part of a Dealer Binder from 1917-1919, ironically, the only item NOT listed on the parts list was the badge.
Todd


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## hoofhearted

*Good schtuff -  Ivo, Todd and all .....

Am reminded that in order to create an omelette, we have to break
out the egg beaters.

And even 'tho the true-reality of those badges (that were discussed) 
may never be known ... I have enjoyed each and everyone's contribution 
to the clarifying and possible de-mystification of those badges that go 
bump in the night.*

*....... patric








 



*


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## WetDogGraphix

@47jchiggins this has been an eye opener for me.......


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## hoofhearted

*
These badges were not made by the H-D factory.
They were made sometime in the 1990's.

Solid copper ... smooth on backside ... very-deep
relief.  

Not stamped .. not acid-etched .. not debossed.

Have heard the term, chemical milling, used in re-
lation to these badges.

Not seen in any commercial parts / accessories 
catalog.

Screw-holes match-up with the die-stamped, factory 
badge.

The original supply may have dried up ... the very
last specimen is a lost-wax / cast specimen ... see all
of those surface flaws.

I wonder if a dental technician ... someone who makes
dentures, maybe ... could have done a better job than 
that last specimen ?
*
....... patric



 


















*


*


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## fordsnake

Unlike the original badge...whom ever did the lettering didn't have a understanding of typography glyphs and kerning...close but no cigar!


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## hoofhearted

fordsnake said:


> Unlike the original badge...whom ever did the lettering didn't have a understanding of typography glyphs and kerning...close but no cigar!





*Carlton ... which specimen are you referring to ?



So, am googling away when I run into Kern Type, the kerning game.

Gave it a whirl ..... 

A minute and a half later I was realizing, Oh Wha Tay Goo Siam.

Decided to kern my WWJD bookmarker ..... a misfortunate move.

Thought I'd give a solid re-try ... this time with my WWCD bookmarker.

Pitiful ... jus' pitiful.*

*





 


*


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## fordsnake

I'm sorry I was referencing this badge





Below you can easily discern the font differences when shown side by side.
*Badge A*. The above badge, the letters are straight and narrower. They appear if they were drawn with a ruler, the descenders of the E and D do not fall below the base line. Plus the serifs are chopped on several letters.
*Badge B*. The Original, Is hand drawn! The letters flow properly. The curves are correct and more organic. Note the letters L,V and I and D, they're curved...not straight.


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## hoofhearted

fordsnake said:


> Below you can easily discern the font differences when shown side by side.
> *Badge A*. The above badge, the letters are straight and narrower. They appear if they were drawn with a ruler, the descenders of the E and D do not fall below the base line. Plus the serifs are chopped on several letters.
> *Badge B*. The Original, Is hand drawn! The letters flow properly. The curves are correct and more organic. Note the letters L,V and I and D, they're curved...not straight.








*Wow !! ... with your graphic manipulation, just a comparison of 
the two-''V's'' is plenty of evidence the fonts do not match ....

Brilliant ... just brilliant,  you are ....

Thank YOU - Carlton .....

....... patric*


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## bricycle

As a side note, It seems to me that lots of folks gravitate toward Harley, Indian, Chiefs, Miamis, etc. I prefer a bike that the "Masses" don't desire.
By doing so, I have a more obscure bike, a bike that may cost less, and a bike that someone isn't dying to covet/steal.


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## Freqman1

bricycle said:


> As a side note, It seems to me that lots of folks gravitate toward Harley, Indian, Chiefs, Miamis, etc. I prefer a bike that the "Masses" don't desire.
> By doing so, I have a more obscure bike, a bike that may cost less, and a bike that someone isn't dying to covet/steal.




I think that's because a lot of us also have motorcycles and like the connection. V/r Shawn


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## frankster41

I second what Shawn said


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## catfish




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## cyclingday

Only in this case, Schwinn actually built the motorcycle and the bicycle.


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## prewarbikes4sale

cyclingday said:


> View attachment 717042 View attachment 717043
> Only in this case, Schwinn actually built the motorcycle and the bicycle.





cyclingday said:


> View attachment 717042 View attachment 717043
> Only in this case, Schwinn actually built the motorcycle and the bicycle.




I cant believe you don't own this bike.


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## hoofhearted

*ERROR 
*
@Goldenindian   ... could you please remove
your _LIKE _checkmark and place it in the _corrected
entry ._right below ... if you like.  Thanks ....

...... patric


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## hoofhearted

*Model 419 Motorcyke that appears in the H-D Museum ...
restored by gentleman whose goal was to have as many
H-D bicycles placed into the Museum as possible.

Different philosophy about what gets restored and what 
doesn't ... back in the day ......

..... patric






*


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## bricycle

sin to restore that one....


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## catfish

bricycle said:


> sin to restore that one....




The people at the HD museum have destroyed a few very nice original motorcycles.... But they are "Experts".....


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## bricycle

catfish said:


> The people at the HD museum have destroyed a few very nice original motorcycles.... But they are "Experts".....




Well they are... Experts at ruining stuff.


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## catfish

bricycle said:


> Well they are... Experts at ruining stuff.




This is true. But it is also sad.


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## bricycle

catfish said:


> This is true. But it is also sad.



yea, if you HAVE to have a new looking bike to show, build one from scratch.


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## frankster41

H D museum bikes


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## cyclingday




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## 47jchiggins

Freqman1 said:


> I think that's because a lot of us also have motorcycles and like the connection. V/r Shawn
> 
> View attachment 716925 View attachment 716926



One little, two little, three little......


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## cyclingday




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## cyclingday




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## Kato

I've known about this truss bridge Harley for 3-4-5 years now and took some pics of the head badge since I remembered this post.
Looks to be the bottle cap style without screws. May make a run at the bike someday but need to collect more info / knowledge on fair value.


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## Freqman1

Kato said:


> I've known about this truss bridge Harley for 3-4-5 years now and took some pics of the head badge since I remembered this post.
> Looks to be the bottle cap style without screws. May make a run at the bike someday but need to collect more info / knowledge on fair value.
> 
> View attachment 738365 View attachment 738366 View attachment 738368



Would it be possible to see pics of the whole bike? V/r Shawn


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## catfish

Nice lamp!


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## Goldenindian

. Can’t wait to see more. I would love to see pictures of the seat lug(if one) and the chain adjusters. Please let me know. Go get that thing Kato! Thanks for sharing. View attachment 738436


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## Kato

Freqman1 said:


> Would it be possible to see pics of the whole bike? V/r Shawn




I don't get to see the bike very often but next time I do I'll see what I can do
GoldenIndian posted up the only pic I have of the entire bike a few pots after mine of the badge.


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## THE STIG

watch the GPS location on thoses pics


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## bikewhorder

THE STIG said:


> watch the GPS location on thoses pics



Looks like there's snow on the ground in the reflection so that narrows it down.


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## Goldenindian

Over the years saving everything Harley I see on the internet. One of the most interesting topics is the bottle cap Harley’s.....I wish it really helped narrow things done... for a company that only had a bicycle for...at max 6 years. I really hope we get to see some more kato...


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## removed

ASK *PAT CAFARO!*  HE KNOWS THAT PARTICULAR BADGE AND AT ONE TIME...REPRODUCED A DOZEN OR SO IN THE LATE 80'S


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## cyclingday

Here's a nice morning shot of a "bottle cap" badged Harley.


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## sam

Yes computer generated founts are rounder at the serfs than hand cut founts.


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## hoofhearted

removed said:


> ASK *PAT CAFARO!*  HE KNOWS THAT PARTICULAR BADGE AND AT ONE TIME...REPRODUCED A DOZEN OR SO IN THE LATE 80'S





*WoW !!  .... Mental Instability is a terrible thing 
to display by God's Electively-Ignorant* *Children.*

..... patric





hoofhearted said:


> *THIS IS FROM ENTRY #46 of THIS THREAD ....
> Back to Jerry at N-R ... Jerry has a gentleman that wants to gather
> and restore as many original H-D bicycles as humanly possibly.
> The gentleman was a retired exec at H-D ... and his plans are to help
> grow their museum and history center.  N-R = Nostalgic Reflections*
> 
> *After I was offered the Nostalgic-Reflections Mystery H-D Badge ... I was
> asked if I would mind if N-R reproduced a few of them for use by the H-D
> gentleman.  Said I wanted the one Jerry located.  And I received it.  Repop
> 'til your heart's content.*
> 
> *H-D gentleman hires me to ''antique'' the dozen N-R badges he received.
> Said I didn't want money ... looking for H-D Bicycle historical knowledge.
> Got it .. along with some fotos printed using factory-original glass negs.*
> 
> *I was happy.*


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## hoofhearted

*BUMP to Entry #1 ... for an interesting read ........*

*..... patric*


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## Archie Sturmer

Yes, an interesting read, but a somewhat difficult one at 5 pages; (may say more about my own attention span).
I have to admit that I don't know much about David Heraldson motorcycles, but I have seen fake DH sprockets, too pricey (way).
After reading one time, I am still not sure if the consensus was that the originally posted Higgins badge was a nice fake; or whether consensus even mattered.
I did not read anyone questioning the false premise of the OP question, of why (besides the obvious profit motive) would a counterfeiter take such painstaking measures to fake a badge that looked fake.  I believe that the OP partially answered the question, "make every attempt to make it look as close to the original or what others perceived as original, as possible".  So there's two factors, the 'as possible' part (cheapest cost) and the 'what others perceived as original' (faking it part).  There may also be an old-Abe cliché about some people, sometimes, which may play into the business model for counterfeiters.
The Higgins badge had the right shape and number of holes, so it meets the "Ritz cracker test".  The Higgins badge spelt all of the English words correctly, so a foreign-made fake may be ruled-out. I would suggest that the Higgins badge does not look so fake, and it looks just like what others may perceive as original, (unless they live for the CABE).  Perhaps a more difficult to suspect counterfeit, might also be more difficult (costly) to manufacture.  A buyer may pay more for better-looking fakes, but I would think that there might be a considerable discount between close fakes and originals, (if known).
Also, I did not read any estimates on the prices of the non-shiny old-looking fakes; the most accurate price estimates are actuals paid, ($20?).


Another interesting part to me was the manufacturing method discussion.  One summer, I worked for a tool & die maker in a small machine shop; I operated the two-hand cutting and stamping press (and I still have 10 digits), a bending/shaping hand press, pantograph engraving machine, polishers, and the oxygen-acetylene silver-brazing and glass-enameling (cloisonné) torch.  I also had school projects using acid etching methods (thick film technology).  Later, I would work for a much larger organization, with too many co-workers missing fingers, toes, or hearing.
Most classic badges that I see are made from stamping brass sheet metal into a die, or more modern by the acid etch method.  Casting molten (that means melted into a hot liquid) metal into a mold seems highly-archaic, maybe for ToC bikes; (then there is also a sintering process); I also have a couple thinner badges embossed from a thick metal foil material. 

The 1st step in stamping was cutting the pieces from a sheet or strip of brass (please don't get me started on the brasses and bronzes, reds and yellows, leaded and unleaded, or copper alloys).  Those 1st pieces would be cut as closely together as possible, in cookie-cutter fashion, to reduce the amount of wasted material. 
They would be cut to the outside shape or profile of the finished stamping, and fit into the stamping die of the next step.  With the machine reset for the stamping operation (shaping die), the process was repeated, except the output would have the desired shape and contours, but also some excess metal squeezed to the outsides (it had to go someplace under the pressure).  [An alternative was to sometimes stack two pieces, resulting in one piece  with a concave back (more lightweight) and the other bent piece to be the next one shaped, not wasted].  Sometimes stamping two times was necessary for a thinner output, (or maybe the machine needed adjustment to hit harder).  A repeat of the 1st cutting step would trim-away the excess metal, and after polishing, acid-pickling and scrubbing, the pieces would then be ready for enameling.  I like the two variations of stippling on the embossed badges.


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## hoofhearted

@Archie Sturmer ... 

*Enjoyed reading all of your input.
Do not know if there was any consensus on
the badges discussed in this thread.*

*Perhaps those that wrote, understand that
each participant has his/her own opinion.*

*There are things in this world that may never
be explained ...  an explanation resulting in 
thoughts being ruled out ... and truths ruled in.*

*Personally, I enjoy a good mystery.*

*Take those ''Sliding Rocks'' fr'instance ... *

*Really enjoy the mystery about them.  As I did the
mystery of a Santa Claus when I was a kid.*

*One day, my fifth-grade school teacher .. Mrs. Denlinger
told all of the children in her class -- something I really
regretted hearing.  Yeah .. you guessed it.*

*And, I was devastated.  *

*Anyhoo ... there is more information available about
those ''Sliding Rocks'' ......*

*I really do not want to be a Mrs. Denlinger ... but YouTube
offers up an interesting video.*

*Feeling very-strongly about NOT WANTING to be a Mrs. ''D'',
... I am posting the title to the video in a random manner by
telling you the three words that make up the title.*

*But am not revealing those words in the same order the 
title does.*

*Here are those words ...... Move .. How .. Rocks.*

*If you value the mystery of those ''Sliding Rocks'' ... by all
means, do not try to de-randomize my offerings ... and ...
please do not go to YouTube.*

*..... patric*


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## catfish

hoofhearted said:


> @Archie Sturmer ...
> 
> *Enjoyed reading all of your input.
> Do not know if there was any consensus on
> the badges discussed in this thread.*
> 
> *Perhaps those that wrote, understand that
> each participant has his/her own opinion.*
> 
> *There are things in this world that may never
> be explained ...  an explanation resulting in
> thoughts being ruled out ... and truths ruled in.*
> 
> *Personally, I enjoy a good mystery.*
> 
> *Take those ''Sliding Rocks'' fr'instance ... *
> 
> *Really enjoy the mystery about them.  As I did the
> mystery of a Santa Claus when I was a kid.*
> 
> *One day, my fifth-grade school teacher .. Mrs. Denlinger
> told all of the children in her class -- something I really
> regretted hearing.  Yeah .. you guessed it.*
> 
> *And, I was devastated.  *
> 
> *Anyhoo ... there is more information available about
> those ''Sliding Rocks'' ......*
> 
> *I really do not want to be a Mrs. Denlinger ... but YouTube
> offers up an interesting video.*
> 
> *Feeling very-strongly about NOT WANTING to be a Mrs. ''D'',
> ... I am posting the title to the video in a random manner by
> telling you the three words that make up the title.*
> 
> *But am not revealing those words in the same order the
> title does.*
> 
> *Here are those words ...... Move .. How .. Rocks.*
> 
> *If you value the mystery of those ''Sliding Rocks'' ... by all
> means, do not try to de-randomize my offerings ... and ...
> please do not go to YouTube.*
> 
> *..... patric*
> 
> 
> View attachment 891388
> 
> View attachment 891389




Let he who is without aim, cast the first stone...


----------

