# Help on a 1952



## Pam in Oklahoma (Jul 21, 2017)

hi all... been watching and reading some of y'alls posts since I joined a couple months ago. I need help on my brother's 1952 ???
I can't find any pictures of the exact bike even in the 1952 catalog so I'm guessing it may be pieced together... he got it in the early 60's as a Christmas gift. Santa's elves were digging in the reindeer barn and found it. I think they repainted (or maybe my brother did?) it before lobbing it on the back of the sleigh! I'm needing to get rid of it because I'm liquidating the family estate. Any idea on the value of this piece?


----------



## barneyguey (Jul 21, 2017)

I think you have a Phantom with another brand fenders and chain guard o n it. The forks also look bent. Here's my 1950 Phantom.


----------



## Jeff54 (Jul 21, 2017)

Pam in Oklahoma said:


> View attachment 647804 View attachment 647802 View attachment 647805 View attachment 647810 View attachment 647806 View attachment 647808 hi all... been watching and reading some of y'alls posts since I joined a couple months ago. I need help on my brother's 1952 ???





Yup it's probably a black phantom. the wheels look right, chain ring (sprocket) probably handles bar too. but the stem (gooseneck) is not, fenders not, seat old but not and chain guard not, the  fork does look bent too . Lots and lots of work to monetize it and that's only if the frame actually is a black phantom under that paint, and if your brother's remodel job can be undone. In general Schwinn old rims, the chrome can be cleaned up nice, good tuff back then. But that rotting spoke is a good indication they'll need plenty work to restore too.

You might get somebody locally to give ya ,like 200 bucks for it, If they believe the frame is a black phantom and willing to do all the work and cash out of pocket, but otherwise, a tough sale. Alternately, Your bro was probably pretty proud on his rebuild, so there might be more sentimental value than buck worth there.

Get the rims to shine again, remove paint without messing up what's under it, replace the bent parts of fork and price goes up but, probably not so much that you'll be rewarded for the efforts required. .

Wait, what?; I just noticed he took off the welded   retainer for kick  stand and replaced with a bolted one  too?. Or that's actually a Schwinn but would not be a black phantom at all.  What's that sound on PBS antique's road show, when they update value and it's gone down?? If he did that, then, I'm hearing it now. you do seem to have the right date, actual number ranges in October 1952, and some Schwinn's made for whole sale market don't have them, but I don't think any Black phantoms were made without.

Plus in your old  photo, the fenders on it then, don't look big enough rather. maybe it's a double date mis, some were duplicated in newer years. not a heavy weight 1952  frame but mid 50's middle weight, which could be a number of different styles, and possibly, originally a 57 Hornet. 'maybe', 2 styles made then, standard and deluxe. The deluxe had the springer fork and welded kick stand while the standard had bolted kick stand. And that's also when that type of stem (goose neck holding the handle bar)  was used too. Yet adding a springer fork was always an option plus anybody , like your bro, could have stuck it on.

Measure the bracket that's holding  the rear fender to the frame, on top, were the upper area is welded to frame, if it's about 2-5/8" then, it's a middle weight bike and not 1952. gently scratch off a little paint on bottom of it and see  what color it was and if the original color has metal flake type; red blue or green  paint,  bingo, it's not 52. Albiet it, if you an't already too cornfuzed, the deluxe 57 has metal flake type looking paint, plus could be black and red without it, and the standard could be black/red, and not red blue or green that's  metal flake type paint..

and if I am correct, a 57 hornet, if it's black and red, then it's the hardest to get. If so, and your bro's paint will come off, then lucky.

the other possibility it's Frankenstein b/c that front wheel and fork that causes first thought to be a black phantom,  looks to be an S-2 wide, heavy weight wheel. verses middle weight: narrower,   S-7's which all means, he pulled parts off a black phantom: fork, wheels and chain ring,  to make his special 'Frankenstein' .


----------



## KingSized HD (Jul 21, 2017)

I'm sorry for the loss of your brother.
Looks like your main interest is a value...I'd agree with the $200 mentioned but maybe $250 on a good day.
The repaint, rim condition, forks and wrong fenders bring it down; the overall age, high flange front hub, handlebar & seat condition helps it.
List it for $275 and take $250 early in the day, $200 later in the day.


----------



## bobcycles (Jul 21, 2017)

KingSized HD said:


> I'm sorry for the loss of your brother.
> Looks like your main interest is a value...I'd agree with the $200 mentioned but maybe $250 on a good day.
> The repaint, rim condition, forks and wrong fenders bring it down; the overall age, high flange front hub, handlebar & seat condition helps it.
> List it for $275 and take $250 early in the day, $200 later in the day.





--------very accurate market savy estimate!


----------



## Jeff54 (Jul 21, 2017)

bobcycles said:


> --------very accurate market savy estimate!



Reiterated: Kick stand is bolted on and there's no visible housing for it nor space to be behind it. . , what Black Phantom,  It's top and exclusive deluxe only model during 1950's   came without having Schwinn's most unique, to Schwinn only, which seems, even today on Pacific Cycle's "Schwinn"  china bikes, patent protected (for reasons unknown as surly patent and design  protection is expired),  "without" welded Kick stand housing?

I've never seen that, but don't know everything either, yet would be a sizeable  deterrent to value because it was welded on. Removing that would scare it and replacing too, destroy originality hence 'sizeable deterrent' to collectible value.

'Suspect'; "Frankenstein"


(Lightweight stand shown below but virtually the same thing)


----------



## Pam in Oklahoma (Jul 22, 2017)

KingSized HD said:


> I'm sorry for the loss of your brother.
> Looks like your main interest is a value...I'd agree with the $200 mentioned but maybe $250 on a good day.
> The repaint, rim condition, forks and wrong fenders bring it down; the overall age, high flange front hub, handlebar & seat condition helps it.
> List it for $275 and take $250 early in the day, $200 later in the day.





Thank you for your condolences. I appreciate everyone's opinion on this. I am kinda proud I figured out it was pieced together! I know nothing about bikes. Just how to ride one, and it's been so long now I'm not even sure if I still know how!


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe (Jul 22, 2017)

bolt on kick stand and stem say that was never a Phantom. looks like that is a front drum brake missing all the parts to me, rather than a high flange hub. $200.00 sounds about right to me.


----------



## Jay81 (Jul 22, 2017)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> bolt on chain gaurd and stem say that was never a Phantom. looks like that is a front drum brake missing all the parts to me, rather than a high flange hub. $200.00 sounds about right to me.




The non-Schwinn chain guard and stem (among other non-Schwinn parts) have nothing to do with determining what model Schwinn this is, or isn't.
I agree with you on the front drum brake, I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe (Jul 23, 2017)

Jay81 said:


> The non-Schwinn chain guard and stem (among other non-Schwinn parts) have nothing to do with determining what model Schwinn this is, or isn't.
> I agree with you on the front drum brake, I was thinking the same thing.




oops. I wrote chain guard but meant kick stand. other than a cantilever frame there is nothing on that bike that says Phantom... just like all small block Chevy's are Corvette motors I guess all old Schwinns were Phantoms


----------



## Jeff54 (Jul 23, 2017)

Pam in Oklahoma said:


> Thank you for your condolences. I appreciate everyone's opinion on this. I am kinda proud I figured out it was pieced together! I know nothing about bikes. Just how to ride one, and it's been so long now I'm not even sure if I still know how!





I'd thought that somebody would have double checked to see if the serial numbers was duplicated later but no, so, I checked. It's not so, E65xxx is a 1952 and made: 10/07 to 10/08 ------- E61251 ------------------ E81128 and not a middle weight, post 1955, but the desirable heavy. .

Your 1960's photo, the bike appears to be black but could be red repainted as is today. albeit I'd spect the color tone in B/W would be lighter. But that's the rub, the only bike made then with black on front post would be a red phantom. Schwinn's heavier bikes were all two toned before, est; 1954, majority being white in the front on front post  and another  whole body color:, red, blue, green and others  etc. While the black Phantom has red on front post all black body and only the red phantom; all red body and front being  black like your photo indicates. . So it was either painted by pops when he got it or, if that tone is what it appears to be   a red phantom. Yet still, without welded kick stand? The red phantom is more rare and command a bit higher price.

Noting your b/w photo, those after market fenders and chain guard are on this bike then.

It's worth a few bucks to discover if there's scares behind that bolted kick stand by removing it or, the cylindrical housing for welded kick stand is hiding somewhere  behind it.

otherwise,  before it was refurbished by pops? it was likely Schwinn wholesale like; BF Goodrich made by Schwinn type, all upgraded with the good stuff and painted black in 60's . Because the bolted kickstand could be found on wholesale types, then it was only the 'standard' feature that may be found on their wholesale cantilever, B-6 bikes. Those, like all Schwinn made bikes also could be upgraded with your deluxe features and pops could have robbed em from a donor too, to make your brother's extra special. . .

What a difference a kick stand makes. Go figure?

I've seen them, as a kid in 60's, that were taken off.  the built in kick stand can be tricky to repair and kids would beat em off with sledge hammer or to stick a bolt on, there. . You dad, or whoever rebuilt it, may have done that too.

b/c it's almost always there; I'd remove the Schwinn badge and scratch the paint under it  too see> Minding that these were also primered with red-lead, rust proofing paint , sort of a brownish brick red. so you're looking for the original color above that primer. and scratch the paint under the peddle housing too. Those two different colors, 'Two tone' will help I.D. with an greater degree of accuracy, just what ya gots dar.


----------



## barneyguey (Jul 23, 2017)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> oops. I wrote chain guard but meant kick stand. other than a cantilever frame there is nothing on that bike that says Phantom... just like all small block Chevy's are Corvette motors I guess all old Schwinns were Phantoms



Nothing but the Springer Fork, Drum Brake and Black head badge.


----------



## Jeff54 (Jul 23, 2017)

barnyguey said:


> Nothing but the Springer Fork, Drum Brake and Black head badge.



little more, that chain ring and crank, the seat post clamp  too. Rear wheel maybe, can't tell if it's a S-7 or the right  S-2 but the front is.

But that dar springer's forks got some seriously strange bend in it. Can't even imagine why it's working or managed to bolt up  like that. That stem was prob off of a donor bike or Pops picked it all up during restoration at hardware or as those all appear shinny new in b/w photo. . with that handle bar. It's not Schwinn, Wald I think, but they did use it around 1957 and into the 60's on their cheaper models.

I been searching even some wholesale catalogs and can't even find a B-6 in this period without Schwinn's 'patented' kick stand. More and more inclined that pops popped it off too.


----------



## juanitasmith13 (Jul 23, 2017)

Jeff54 said:


> I'd thought that somebody would have double checked to see if the serial numbers was duplicated later but no, so, I checked. It's not so, E65xxx is a 1952 and made: 10/07 to 10/08 ------- E61251 ------------------ E81128 and not a middle weight, post 1955, but the desirable heavy. .
> 
> Your 1960's photo, the bike appears to be black but could be red repainted as is today. albeit I'd spect the color tone in B/W would be lighter. But that's the rub, the only bike made then with black on front post would be a red phantom. Schwinn's heavier bikes were all two toned before, est; 1954, majority being white in the front on front post  and another  whole body color:, red, blue, green and others  etc. While the black Phantom has red on front post all black body and only the red phantom; all red body and front being  black like your photo indicates. . So it was either painted by pops when he got it or, if that tone is what it appears to be   a red phantom. Yet still, without welded kick stand? The red phantom is more rare and command a bit higher price.
> 
> Sorry to butt in, but my green Phantom from 1952 has always had a black head tube... the boys Phantom that year came as a Black phantom (w/ Red head tube and red trim), a red Phantom (w/black head tube and black trim) and a Green Phantom (w/black head tube and black trim). All these had white pins. Brother's bike was @ least 8 years old, probably had hard paper-boy miles, when it was gifted to him; it probably WAS a Phantom when new.. He was about my age, and most of us average people did not get new Schwinn's back then. A franken-schwinn was a really neat acquisition by his Dad! Condolences to you, sister.


----------



## juanitasmith13 (Jul 23, 2017)

barnyguey said:


> Nothing but the Springer Fork, Drum Brake and Black head badge.




Rear reflector, chainwheel, etc. enough to have been originally a Phantom


----------



## KevinM (Jul 24, 2017)

juanitasmith13 said:


> Rear reflector, chainwheel, etc. enough to have been originally a Phantom



That is funny to think I was 8 years old when this bike was cruising around maybe in my neighborhood in Tulsa on E. 60th back in the early 60's.


----------

