# Wartime Schwinn New World Bikes - We Know You Have Them - Tell Us About Them!!



## Miq

Please help us gather some more info on wartime Schwinn New Worlds (or other lightweights).  We know many of you have these unique bikes and they all have an interesting story to tell.  We are already starting to get an idea of what serial number New Worlds have the transition from brazing to electro forming construction and can see the progression from few blackout parts to many.  There were many (not 100s of thousands but many) non-military "Defense" or "Victory" New Worlds built during the war.   Here's a look at what we have started to see:






With the help of @GTs58 and @SirMike1983 and a few other New World enthusiasts, we've been able to thread a narrative about the progression of these bikes from braced big handle bar tourists with rear forks, to the inexpensive rear dropout lightweight EF performers they became.  This is how we got here:  3-speeder's Wartime Schwinn New World

But there are MANY more of these wartime lightweights out there in your collections.  Here's a few examples we think would help add more clues and details.  Do you know anything about these bikes?  Do you have a serial number or pictures or more info you can share to help add to our understanding?

@bikepaulie What's the serial number on your 1939??

@bobcycles You see all kinds of stuff and can probably add tons of info.  In particular, what happened to this bike?  This is exactly the kind of bike we want to know more about.  War Bird

@manuelvilla You have/had a beautiful step through New World that holds clues I'm sure.  My New World

@DonChristie You have/had this very original 1940 looking bike.  What's the serial number?  New World

@orangewill Mentioned this K serial bike of his friends.  Any one know more about it?  ID Help

@Jim Barnard had this bike with a 3-piece crank and brazed frame with tons of blackout parts.  What's the story?  Too unique!  Wartime Blacked Out

@Eric had/has this blackout ladies beauty.  Any way to get more info on this one?  War Era Schwinn

@GenuineRides had this frame for sale that looks interesting.  Did it get used in a build?  Help w Year

@bikiba I know you love these bikes.  Got any pics/info you can share to help add to the story.  You have the blackout eyes. 

@jpromo In one thread you mention owning 3 of these frames (Serial F, G, and I).  Please tell us more...

I'm looking forward to what kind of stuff crawls out of the woodwork on this.  Who has stuff we've never seen before?  Time to shine a light on that funny wartime lightweight you've been secretly loving...  Let's fill the table out all the way to @SirMike1983 's gorgeous 1947 multi-gear New World!

YOU GOT THEM - LET'S SEE THEM!!


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## GTs58

I'd like to add @Arfsaidthebee to the list. His piece looks like it was a total black out piece. Possible EF BB and chain stays along with the head tube. Super sized frame too!


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## Miq

@GTs58 Nice!  Arfsaidthebee has the big boy 23" frame you don't see very often.  Look at the size of that head man!!

I'm adding a few other's you've pointed out to me over that past few weeks and also this supposed 1945 from classiccyleus.  It has a blackout multi-speed ND coaster and 3-piece crank w blackout sprocket.  Dig the 2 front bar braces and front drum hub.



Here's the table now.


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## bikepaulie

This lady’s also stuffed away somewhere. Serial #: K49224, 1942.

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/war-era-schwinn-new-world-full-black-out-bike.114353/


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## Miq

@bikepaulie That’s the beautiful bike I listed as Eric’s in the tables above.  That one rear wire brace seems to be a K serial thing so far... 
Any idea what the serial number is on the 1939 you have with the rear forks??

Thanks!!


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## Brutuskend

I had a mens a few years back I parted out before I really knew what I was doing. Not like I know ALL that much now. Thankfully, I know who has most of it, and one of these days I'll probably give him the rest of the parts I still have from it. It had the black out ND hubs, and the as&c chainring.


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## SirMike1983

My 1947 is C81661. Electroforged bottom bracket. Post-war stamped braces. Rear braces attach to eyelet rather than axle. That's should all be pretty standard for a post-war bike. Originally a single-speed freewheel set up. The multi-gear is a set of 1940s Continental wheels I use because I prefer the 3 speed.


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## SirMike1983

My wife's old 1946 New World, which I sold, also had the full post-war items: stamped braces to an eyelet on the back, electroforged frame/bottom bracket.


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## SirMike1983

I think Wrongway at one point had a post-war New World serial # V70556. I don't recall the year. It had the electroforged frame and the stamped-style braces that connect to an eyelet rather than axle in the back. This serial number may be late enough to use the post-war Schwinn serial number chart. I suspect it was a late model New World from 1948 or later.


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## SirMike1983

JohnSwartz had a post-war New World that was a bare frame. Serial #I43215. Electroforged frame/bottom bracket. Eyelets for fenders on the rear dropout. But otherwise was just a bare frame.


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## SirMike1983

SailorBenjamin at least used to own a post-war New World with serial # E20071. If I recall, this had the usual post-war set up with electroforged frame, rear fender eyelet, and stamped braces.


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## Miq

Thanks @SirMike1983 I appreciate you adding a bunch of info on the later model bikes.


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## SirMike1983

What you are doing gathering this information is interesting. I never really paid too much attention to the serial numbers. The longstanding wisdom was that pre-48 serial numbers were difficult, at best. I ended up focusing on features and the various options that turn up in terms of the parts. But it's interesting to get the serial numbers and features charted out together, and you've done a pretty good job of it.


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## Miq

SirMike1983 said:


> What you are doing gathering this information is interesting. I never really paid too much attention to the serial numbers. The longstanding wisdom was that pre-48 serial numbers were difficult, at best. I ended up focusing on features and the various options that turn up in terms of the parts. But it's interesting to get the serial numbers and features charted out together, and you've done a pretty good job of it.




Thanks SirMike!  Prewar serials are difficult and confusing. If no one ever attempts to figure it out, then we are stuck saying “well no one really knows...” forever.  This community can help fill in some of the clues with physical evidence.

We have the bikes, Schwinn made them during the war with blackout mixmaster parts and war tires.  Let’s talk about them and see what we can figure out.   If other people add more info, like you have, we will get even more data to help figure it out.  Like you said it’s already starting to show some trends...

Who else has a wartime bike to share?


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## bikepaulie

Miq said:


> @bikepaulie That’s the beautiful bike I listed as Eric’s in the tables above.  That one rear wire brace seems to be a K serial thing so far...
> Any idea what the serial number is on the 1939 you have with the rear forks??
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> View attachment 991533


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## Miq

Thanks @bikepaulie !!  That fits nicely.  




What about info on some of the other older bikes?  @DonChristie @manuelvilla @bobcycles is there any more info you can share on the bikes above?


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## DonChristie

The new world i had for sale was not mine and it is long gone, sorry!


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## Miq

@DonChristie Thank you for the update. Hopefully another member will run into it again someday and let us know more about it.  It is in great shape.


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## bricycle

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/super-ryo-bee-project.139073/


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## Miq

@bricycle That Ryobi project is sweet!  Truly custom fab.  Thank you for pointing to the 1940 New World frame you are using.  It fits in the chart exactly where the missing DonChristie bike used to be.  Thank you for participating in this serial number project, every bike (even just a frame) adds lots of data.  You rock!  It looks like the frame changed from rear forks to rear dropouts somewhere between C serials and D serials. @SirMike1983 @bikepaulie you'll dig this.  Check it out:





@manuelvilla @bobcycles Can you help us with any info on the bikes you have come across?


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## Miq

Adding @Bozman 's beautiful 1948 original blue ladies New World.  @GTs58 noticed it has an EF BB but not all of the BB is EF.  Weird and interesting...


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## Miq

I've had a few messages from @Arfsaidthebee about the New Worlds in his collection.  He has 5 of these beauties and sent pics and info that I'm adding to the thread.

Here are some great pics he took of his 23" black wartime bike with blackout braces that we had in the chart above.  It is serial J08200:











EF BB 

 

 Also has blackout ND Big Arm = Brake coaster and came with 'War Tire" marked tires.   Really neat victory bike!


Arfsaidthebee also has two 1948 New Worlds.  This one is so clean!  Serial number E60020 No blackout parts, EF BB, bought from @Larmo63 





This looks like another 1948 that has a few missing parts and modifications but the frame and braces are post war.  EF BB with serial E20400 is in that 1948 zone.  








Arfsaidthebee also has two interesting blue New Worlds that are pre/wartime.
Serial number D54422, Schwinn Superior rims, Whirlwind rear tire, blackout rear sprocket, front/rear brakes, wire braces in rear, locking fork



NOT EF BB: 






The Blackout rear sprocket is odd.  The D serial and NOT EF BB and rest of the bike make me think it is a 1940, but why use a blackout sprocket in 1940?  Rear hub is a 3-sp Sturmey Archer (not blackout).  Also has a locking fork.


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## GTs58

It's a little hard to tell from the pics and being black, but it looks like Arf's J serial #'d beauty has the full blown EF head tube. The SN stamping is a lower number  than Capt Nemo's too. Here's what a full on EF Schwinn head tube looks like for those that are not aware. It's made from two pieces of flat steel and the nubs for the top and bottom tube joints are punched out so when finished the tube joints look fillet brazed. 





Note how the head tube is stamped out for the top tube EF to the head tube.


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## Miq

@GTs58 Nice pics!  How they gave the appearance of fillet brazing when they formed the nubs is interesting.  It's hard to tell from the pics how far out the nubs are formed and where the joint to the tube starts.  On the frame that looks like it got sanded, is that darker vertical looking marking the EF joint for the bottom tube?

I got some more pics and info from Arfsaidthebee.  I corrected/added some stuff above but ran into the 20 attachments limit   Here's some more pics of his blue H serial bike:

Serial number H53984, 19" frame, NOT EF BB, flat rear braces attach to axle (not original), wire front brace, built-in seat post clamp









He picked up these mudguards that are perfect for this bike.


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## GTs58

@Miq  It's somewhere where the downtube was sanded. Nice job there!  lol   Not sure how far out the nubs were when they first started this process. I'll guess the down tube joint starts very close to the head tube at the bottom were the taper ends and the top is further out so a square cut tube will meet the nub. 
Note in that picture above that some work had to be done to fit the top bearing cup. 

Here's some drawings, but I have no idea what era they are from, possibly later than war time since there are drawings of the later BB. 
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html


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## Miq

@GTs58 Those dwgs make it clear now even if the nub length is slightly different.  

Stamping two pieces of steel and EF them must have been a lot cheaper than drawing seamless tubing and sounds a lot less labor intensive than hand brazing the joints.  The evolution toward higher and higher volume at increased efficiency is clear.


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## Miq

Latest Chart:


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## Alan Brase

I thought I sent in the info on the one I bought last month on ebay: Frame, fork and both mudguards only.
I believe it to be 1942 J99657 EF BB; WIRE braces. No parts exist that would been blackout (unknown) One more funny thing: it has the vertical head badge holes. could it have been a B F Goodrich New World? Painted over with black. I will do some careful paint removal to determine original color.


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## Miq

Hi Alan,  Thanks for the info on the New World frame you have!  I added it to the list along with some info on a bike that @Siestabikes had found in this thread 1940s New World.  

Would it be possible to send pictures of the parts you have Alan?  There are always other things we can learn from seeing the pics.  How many wire braces are on the rear mudguard?  Your bike is very close in numbering to bikes that have only one rear wire brace.  What sections of the BB were EF?  Some bikes close to yours have brazed chain stay joints but EF seat tube joints.  

Looking forward to hearing more about what you find out about the bike.


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## bikiba

i actually had owned 2 New Worlds, neither were war time i am afraid. I do love those old school diamond frames best. I have a wartime rollfast  guessing that is for another thread


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## Miq

@bikiba It’s been nice to see more threads about lightweights lately.  They have a elegant sexiness that the tank bikes don’t match.  Were the New Worlds you had 50’s bikes?  

Betting your wartime rollfast is sweet.  Does it have ND blackout parts?  That would be something I can see you having on your bike.


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## detroitbike

Were the wartime bikes limited to certain models? 
I have a tourist 3 speed 26” wheel Paramount with blackout 
hubs. I’ll have to check the hub stamp & S/N .


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## Miq

I don’t know for sure but I can imagine lightweight “victory” bikes being what they concentrated on when they were building the small number of bikes during those years.  They were supposed to be a way for people to conserve gas and still commute without using a lot of steel like a new car.  Making a balloon bike with tanks and accessories would not make sense.

The Paramount would be another lightweight they would have probably made during wartime if they had the parts for them on hand.  I’d be interested to see what the serial number is....


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## GTs58

Cycle Trucks made up the vast majority of Schwinn's war time production with slightly over 10,000 units being made in both 1943  and 1944. There were 6364 units made in 1942. Schwinn's total bike production numbers exceeded the Cycle Truck's 10,000 units per year that the Government approved. No CT's were said to be  produced in 1945-46. There have been some off the radar serial numbers mentioned by collectors that were on some balloon tire bikes but nobody has mentioned the idea that they could have been war time production. 

Here are the total production numbers said to be published.

1942 - 112,859
1943 - 16,385
1944 - 18,929
1945 -  98,185


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## Miq

Makes sense that cycle trucks would be produced. Utility work bike. 

@GTs58 Did you mean that the cycle truck production was slightly over 100k each year? (Not just the approved 10k)?  Total production numbers you showed are +100k during wartime.  How many of those were NOT cycle trucks?


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## GTs58

Believe what you want. I slept thru History classes, thought most of it was made up or incorrect. :eek:.... * Fixed  *
Thanks for heads up on the type error * @Miq *

I copied & pasted the pages but they took up to much room here. 

Total Production Numbers.
http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1893_1940/1932_1965_sls_qtys.html

Cycle Truck Production Numbers.
http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1893_1940/1939_nw99.html


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## bikiba

Miq said:


> @bikiba It’s been nice to see more threads about lightweights lately.  They have a elegant sexiness that the tank bikes don’t match.  Were the New Worlds you had 50’s bikes?
> 
> Betting your wartime rollfast is sweet.  Does it have ND blackout parts?  That would be something I can see you having on your bike.




I believe the blue new world i had was a late 30s and the maroon 50s. Im sure I posted them both here over the years.

here is the rollfast, i still have it, from cracked fork to welding to riding: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1941-ish-rollfast-lightweight.62994/


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## Miq

@bikiba That was quite a journey getting the rollfast back on the road!  Nice work!  I really enjoyed getting to see the pics of you sister in law’s dad's silversmithing bench. Cool stuff!


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## Miq

@GTs58 Thanks for revising the war time production numbers.  It looks like they made less than 10k "victory" bikes that were not cycle trucks each year.  I'm enjoying seeing the ones that are still left surviving.  Blackout parts, mixed up franken parts, changes in welding techniques during those years, etc.  I dig it.  It's hard to figure out but cool to try.

Amazing that they had built up production capabilities to almost 400k bikes/year before the war and were able to quickly exceed that number after the war.  Making secret military parts in high volume didn't stop them from pushing a few lightweights out the door too.


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## Jim sciano

Scored a decent original new world today. Looks to be completely untouched. Serial # F87335. No blackout parts & too bad it’s not a men’s. My guess is a 40-41. Anyone have any better ideas, please let me know. Appears to have the original tires too. Never heard of schwinn whirlwind tires. The rims say schwinn superior stamped on them.  Rear large flange schwinn script hub. I haven’t cleaned the grease off the front hub but it appears to be a standard script hub. Torrington pedals. Also, any idea of what style grips belong in this? Not sure if this will help with the chart your building.


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## Miq

Hi Jim,

Great step thru New World!  @spoker and I have been wondering who was going to buy it.  I have already added it to my chart but now I can put @Jim sciano as the owner.    Thank you for posting the pics of it.

I think you are right with 1940.  It has great paint and decals and chrome!!!  The seat is still there too.  Really great bike to restore.  My 1941 is very similar and rides sweet.

The grips were probably part number 822 Black Finger Grips (see 1940 parts catalog below "photo" #422)









Large Flange Hubs:






I would love to see what the original reflector on the rear mudguard looks like.  ??

Thanks again for posting it here.  I look forward to seeing what you do with it.


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## Jim sciano

That is awesome about the grips because I have a pair of those laying around. The rear reflector seems to be a glass stimsonite with an aluminum mount. Nearly impossible to read on the glass but I can just barely make it out.


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## Miq

Nice to see some of that pin striping up close too.  Thank you for posting the pics of the reflector.  I really appreciate it.    That’s a great original bike!


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## Cooper S.

Here’s mine, I pulled the crank once and that was dated 42, it has an I serial number, and a lot of black out. The sprocket and crank arm aren’t black, but they aren’t chrome either. Wood block pedals and old Carlisle tires but no war stamp. It came out of an antique store in Milwaukee.


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## Miq

@Cooper S. That’s a great addition!  Love the blackout pedals, hubs, bottom bracket hardware, headset, ....   I’m believing the 1942 date. Another wartime New World victory bike on the list thanks to you. 

Is that a ND coaster in the rear?  Did it come without a chain guard or mudguards?  Do you think the cranks and front sprocket might be cadmium plated?  Like you wrote, it doesn’t look like chrome but it’s not blacked out either.  

Thanks!


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## GTs58

Is the down tube EF on Cooper's or is the angle of the shot hiding the joint? Seat tube looks to be but the pictures make it hard to tell.


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## Cooper S.

Miq said:


> @Cooper S. That’s a great addition!  Love the blackout pedals, hubs, bottom bracket hardware, headset, ....   I’m believing the 1942 date. Another wartime New World victory bike on the list thanks to you.
> 
> Is that a ND coaster in the rear?  Did it come without a chain guard or mudguards?  Do you think the cranks and front sprocket might be cadmium plated?  Like you wrote, it doesn’t look like chrome but it’s not blacked out either.
> 
> Thanks!
> View attachment 1023971



I’d say the crank is probably cad plated, yes there’s a new departure rear, it had fenders in it and a chain guard but the fenders are newer reproduction ones and the chain guard was rusting away. I can dig out the chain guard if you want photos of that


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## Miq

@Cooper S. thanks for the reply.  I thought it looked like a blackout ND. Many of the wartime New World bikes I’ve seen have that black rear hub.   

Instead of a pic of the chainguard, could you take some more of the BB?  @GTs58 and I would love to see how many of the frame components are electro formed (EF) to the BB shell. Would it be possible to get pics of the BB where all the frame components meet?  There’s a good pic of the bottom where the serial number is, but we would like to see more views where the seat tube and down tube meet the BB.  Would it be possible for you to a take a few pics of that?

Thanks again Cooper!


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## Cooper S.

Cooper S. said:


> I’d say the crank is probably cad plated, yes there’s a new departure rear, it had fenders in it and a chain guard but the fenders are newer reproduction ones and the chain guard was rusting away. I can dig out the chain guard if you want photos of that





Miq said:


> @Cooper S. thanks for the reply.  I thought it looked like a blackout ND. Many of the wartime New World bikes I’ve seen have that black rear hub.
> 
> Instead of a pic of the chainguard, could you take some more of the BB?  @GTs58 and I would love to see how many of the frame components are electro formed (EF) to the BB shell. Would it be possible to get pics of the BB where all the frame components meet?  There’s a good pic of the bottom where the serial number is, but we would like to see more views where the seat tube and down tube meet the BB.  Would it be possible for you to a take a few pics of that?
> 
> Thanks again Cooper!



it is a blackout ND, and yeah sure I can take those photos


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## Miq

@vincev took some more pics of his lovely step thru New World.  The serial number is B61848.  I'd say this is 1946 from where it sits with the other bikes and some info from @GTs58 .   It's the earliest serial we've seen from when Schwinn flipped from using the I-J-K wartime serials to the A- B-C post war serials.  It also has a really cool kid carrier on the back.  













Thanks @vincev !!  Happy 4th!!


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## 3-speeder

Cooper S. said:


> Here’s mine, I pulled the crank once and that was dated 42, it has an I serial number, and a lot of black out. The sprocket and crank arm aren’t black, but they aren’t chrome either. Wood block pedals and old Carlisle tires but no war stamp. It came out of an antique store in Milwaukee.View attachment 1023924
> View attachment 1023925
> 
> View attachment 1023927
> 
> View attachment 1023928
> 
> View attachment 1023929
> 
> View attachment 1023930
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> View attachment 1023931
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> View attachment 1023932
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> View attachment 1023933
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> View attachment 1023934
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> View attachment 1023935
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> View attachment 1023936



Beautiful bike. Looks like a tall frame model. I have the same grips on mine.


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## GTs58

****


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## Miq

I've been collecting a few new entries from other cabers.  Wanted to discuss a few things.  I found some info on when Schwinn started to use rear dropouts on the New World frames.  I was looking at the Waterford site and saw this:




This^^^^^last paragraph captured says the dropouts were started on the New World line in 1938.

The first bike we had on the list was @bikepaulie 's New World with rear forks. 

 We had this listed as 1939 but clearly it is pre 1938 if the above info is correct.  I've updated this bikes entry to 1937-39?.

@vincev sent me some pics and info on his very original looking men's New World 3 speed.  It is a real head scratcher.  The bottom bracket has the very old Letter + 4 Number hand stamped serial numbers from 1935-36 but the frame has rear drop outs.










Just goes to show you that the serial number stamp on the BB may not always be an indication of the exact time the frame or rest of the bike was built.  This bike is clearly prewar but what year is not easy to guess.  ??

@GTs58 found an old entry from @sbusiello of a rough black New World from 1942.






The EF BB in the pic above is now the earliest example we've seen so far of this welding technique being used on the BB.

@coryplayford_2009 posted some pics of this step thru with basket.






Here's the latest chart:


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## Miq

Last task before bed...set this New World rear fork vs dropouts straight for good.

I began the last post with some "new" information from Schwinn in 1946 that the New World frames had been using dropouts since 1938.  That is nonsense and the catalogs from those years show it.

1938 Catalog does not have an image of the New World.  Maybe they were introduced after the images were made for the 38 catalog??  The lightweight "Racer" that year had REAR FORKS:




In 1939 The catalog shows the New World Lightweight Tourist with REAR FORKS:




In 1940 the catalog shows the New World Tourist with REAR DROPOUTS!



Here's the New World Racer from 1940 with DROPOUTS too:



The dividing line for dropouts on the New World frames is 1939/1940.  If it has rear forks it is 1939 or older.  If it has rear dropouts is it 1940 or younger.  That means Bikepaulie's rear forked NW is a 1939 and the youngest Vincev's rear dropout hand stamped bike could be is 1940.

Here's a really sweet 1939 New World Racer Serial B38915 that GTs58 turn me on to.  It's got rear forks of course.
















Fixed the chart and added the cool white 1939 NW Racer.  Oldest bad boy on the list.


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## vincev

Any theories on how mine has that odd serial number and drop outs ??


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## Miq

@vincev None that make sense.  

Your New World is not the only one from the 40s that had a weird serial stamping.  @Jim Barnard showed pics of this wartime NW with tons of blackout parts and a 3 piece crank that also had an oddly stamped serial number:  Jim's wartime NW It used an I serial hand stamp too.  Looks like the 8 is upside down and the 4 is out of line:







Prewar and wartime Schwinn bikes are not consistent and the serial numbering is not always easy to understand.  The more we look at it the more we learn and the more we realize we just don't know all the answers. 

@vincev Your bike is one of those crazy examples where the parts and style of the bike look like 1940 but the BB hand stamp is nutty, from another era (1935-36).  The fact that it's hand stamped  means it could have been done outside the regular machine stamping they had started using by 1940.  Why they did that and who was using hand stamps at the factory is not clear.  But it makes this thread more interesting and worth documenting for the future...


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## SirMike1983

I've never put much weight on that snippet about Schwinn pioneering front-facing rear drops in 1938. It was written years later and, given what I've seen and what has turned up in terms of catalogs and actual bikes, I think the claim that Schwinn started front-facing drops in 1938 is merely ad copy oversimplifying something so that Schwinn could make a bigger claim to innovation. My view is much closer to what the totality of this thread shows - that is, that early New World bikes in the 1938-39 period had rear-facing drops. At some point early on, very likely at some point in 1939, the frames moved to forward-facing rear drops such that by the time of the 1940 catalog, the drops were forward facing. I think a rear-facing drop bike could be from 1938 or  1939.


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## Miq

@SirMike1983 Thank you for posting.  I was hoping you might weigh in too.  I know there are a lot of people who have been looking at this much longer than I have.  I am often re-discovering ideas and "facts" that have probably been laid out somewhere before.  Building the New World chart just reinforces that learning and allows several ideas to be tracked through the years.  I feel more confident in when the dropout change happened looking at the catalogs, but I've changed my mind a few times in these past 3 pages.


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## GenuineRides

Schwinn was known to patent everything, so I would guess there are some drawings that exist with submitted dates.  This wouldn't give us the date it was implemented into actual production bikes, yet it may narrow the picture.


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## GTs58

I've been trying to clear up the falsehood that Schwinn bikes were built on the serial number date for years now. Many seem to think that the frame was built on the date the serial number was recorded but that's also a falsehood. The serial numbers were stamped on the bottom bracket or other components before that component was used in building a frame and it's obvious that @vincev and @Jim Barnard  have New Worlds built with older or mis stamped serial numbered BB shells. Those BB shells were probably rejects with those ugly stampings and Schwinn decided to use them up, maybe because they were going to the EF BB shell. As far as Schwinn was concerned, a serial number was just a serial number, and when they found Joe Blow stamper's _*Ooops, I f'd up another one*_ bucket they used them up. The simple fact that the serials were stamped before the frame was built should clear up lots of questions others have had over the years when trying to date a Schwinn when it doesn't follow the norm. One example is in DJ's pre war serial number list.


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## Miq

@GenuineRides The patent angle is usually a good avenue to try.  Here though, it doesn't work out because the Europeans had been using rear drop outs for several years before Schwinn started on the New Worlds in 1940.  From what others have written, it seems like the Schwinn family spent some time in Europe in the mid 30s and saw how popular the lightweight bikes were becoming.  They wanted to introduce some of the new fabrication methods they saw there too I bet.

When you search the Google Patents site for "Schwinn Rear Drop Outs" (Drop out separate words) you can find some Schwinn patents from the 1980's on frame designs.  These patents "cite" the relevant "prior art" (old patents) that form the basis for the new ideas they are patenting.  It is common practice and "good form" to cite the patents your company (the "assignee") has received in the area of technology you are making a new application in.  When you look at the Schwinn patents for frame design, they just hand wave and write "common prior art" on the pictures of horizontal dropouts like figure 17 below.  They clearly didn't come up with it, and the less they acknowledge that in their patent, the better for them.  Schwinn Rear Wheel Drop Outs





For example here's some stuff from the EU I found that is way before 1940 when Schwinn New Worlds started using rear dropouts.  I have a feeling @dnc1 may know some more about when rear horz dropouts started in Europe.  Clearly it was being done in the early 1930s there.

French 1930 Wonder Ultralight







1934 Caminargent







@GTs58 It's gotta be stuff like being ruthlessly frugal and saving and using up every part you make driving this.  I think this era promoted a different mindset.  Battling in a world war makes this even clearer.  When resources get scarce, you accept parts you may not have chosen first when there were previously more choices...  I love the "mixmaster" parts of the war era bikes.  Wrong number of mudguard stays, odd shaped or completely missing mudguards, weird old bottom bracket shells with several year old hand stamps that Fred found in a closet, it's all good.


----------



## Miq

The @Djshakes list is the best thing going.  It's not perfect but you can see why.  I'm glad to build on the shoulders of work like that.


----------



## Alan Brase

I'd like to mention that the rear fork ends with set screw shown on Bikepaulie's black early New World are not at all like the rear fork type ends on my 1940 (I think) Superior. Mine are like a Paramount track bike. (Superior number is B10287. Maybe 1939?)


----------



## Alan Brase

I just realized that all these dropout type rears are apparently the first use of the electroforged parts on lightweights. (I have very little knowledge of prewar fat tire Schwinns). The EF process was a big step in reducing the amount of hand labor in manufacturing. I assume some of the fusion welding on the New Worlds was gas welding, though the EF name might infer that the welding was Electric? My 1942 New World appears to have only the seat tube stub forged into the bottom bracket. My guess is that  the smaller 3 piece crank bottom brackets had NO forged in stubs. This 1942 appears to have NO brass welding (brazing)) but I'd guess it may have some lead filler at the head tube. Just now tediously aka carefully removing several layers of brushed on black trying to figure out the original color. Steel wool and carb cleaner.  This usually will not cut OE paint, but will remove over coats. ( I did it to a whole car once!)


----------



## Alan Brase

Does anyone have a list of the factory used colors these could have been painted?  I'll probably try to repaint this its original color if it seems like a color I like, or possibly another 1942 color.


----------



## Alan Brase

BTW, Regarding this bike J99657: I looked on the ebay sellers list (elchivo1234) Adrian Martinez, from Wisconsin.Apparently he sold off the New Departure blackout hubs and blackout skip tooth crank set. Ebay makes it really hard to have contact between buyers and seller anymore, so I was not able to find out if any parts were left. 
Even though my first motive to buy it was to use the fenders on my Superior, now I'm kinda leaning towards making this frame back into a bike.


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## SirMike1983

Schwinn and several other American makers recognized a couple of years before WWII that "light roadster" or "sports touring" bicycles were proving to be popular in Europe, particularly in Britain. Those bicycles usually offered forward-facing rear dropouts, cable brakes, a choice of various hubs (the three speed Sturmey Archer K or AW is the classic), 26 inch wheels, side-pull caliper brake sets, and a more compact frame than a 28-inch wheel rod brake roadster. The English light roadster designs, in particular, tended to take what we would recognize as their early-modern well before Schwinn began making the New World.

By the late 1930s, the American bicycle market was heavily slanted toward children riding balloon tire bikes. The balloon tire bikes had revitalized a market that was not doing particularly well up to that point. The bicycle manufacturers in the US hoped that cycling would catch on with American teens and adults - that more modern bicycle designs inspired by the light roadsters of Britain in particular could revitalized adult cycling the way the balloon tire cruisers had revitalized the youth market. British bicycles had also been coming into the United States, particularly the Hercules, Phillips, and later the Raleigh bikes.

There certainly was some market for the bikes, but it proved to be disappointing compared to the sort of boom that the balloon tired cruisers had done for the American youth market. The real "boom" in adult cycling in the US would have to wait until the late 1960s and early 1970s. That boom provided quite a boost in the sector of adult riders who sought serious sporting, touring, and commuting bicycles.

The early light roadsters from the US makers we see today are leftovers from a hope the manufacturers had that they could expand the bicycle market into older teens and adults who wanted serious commuting or sporting goods. In that sense, they're the "odd men out" - too late for the cycling boom of the late 19th century, but too early for the boom of the 1960s-70s.


----------



## Miq

Got a few new additions from @GTs58.  Here's a 1940 D serial (D69242) on eBay with a multi-speed Sturmy, 9 hole rack, and nice Mesinger F-70 saddle.  It reminds me a lot of @vincev's whacky hand stamped I serial number bike.


----------



## Miq

Here's an I serial (I55102) killer wartime bike that's Excelsior badged.  Probably a 1942.  The blackout parts and Mesinger B-70W saddle are sweet!  eBay


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## Miq

This looks like the bike @Alan Brase has been mentioning.  It's just the frame and mudguards.  eBay  Serial J99657


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## Miq




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## Alan Brase

Miq said:


> This looks like the bike @Alan Brase has been mentioning.  It's just the frame and mudguards.  eBay  Serial J99657View attachment 1029936View attachment 1029937View attachment 1029938View attachment 1029939View attachment 1029940View attachment 1029941View attachment 1029942View attachment 1029943



That's it! What do you reckon the original color to be? It had LOTS of brushed on black. I've carefully removed it sanding thru layers, but most places  bottom layer is a milk chocolate brown color, with the occasional bit of that orange red on the bottom of the bottom bracket and underside of the fenders.
I guess we can fill in a few more blanks: singe WIRE rear stays. (90% sure it had blackout skip tooth sprocket and New Departure black front and rear coaster brake.) seller sold those parts at the same time and I was not looking. I woud guess the date to be later than 1942, so 43-44.


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## Alan Brase

Miq said:


> Got a few new additions from @GTs58.  Here's a 1940 D serial (D69242) on eBay with a multi-speed Sturmy, 9 hole rack, and nice Mesinger F-70 saddle.  It reminds me a lot of @vincev's whacky hand stamped I serial number bike.
> View attachment 1029911
> View attachment 1029912View attachment 1029913View attachment 1029914View attachment 1029915
> View attachment 1029916View attachment 1029917View attachment 1029918View attachment 1029919View attachment 1029920View attachment 1029921View attachment 1029922


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## Alan Brase

Isn't that black one a beauty? I swear, one could get some panniers and gear, a couple spare tires, and ride that thing across the country. Maybe I'd flip the handle bars.


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## GTs58

@Alan Brase Your frame was most likely the red color that's on the inside of the fenders. The clay color you see was the red oxide primer. Check out your head tube. To me it looks like the full blown EF piece with the top and down tube EF joints.

Here's the hubs and crank off the NW with Serial J99657.













Schwinn script front hub


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## Miq

Looks like for sure that J serial bike was 1942 at the earliest.  Wonder how many of the war time (42-43-44-45) Schwinn bikes used parts from 42 like that crank?  Did they try to stockpile some parts in 42 knowing the rationing of bike building was coming?  They could concentrate new part production on govt wartime needs, but still build up the few thousand lightweight “victory” bikes those years using the parts they had on hand from 42...  Just speculation...


----------



## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> Schwinn and several other American makers recognized a couple of years before WWII that "light roadster" or "sports touring" bicycles were proving to be popular in Europe, particularly in Britain. Those bicycles usually offered forward-facing rear dropouts, cable brakes, a choice of various hubs (the three speed Sturmey Archer K or AW is the classic), 26 inch wheels, side-pull caliper brake sets, and a more compact frame than a 28-inch wheel rod brake roadster. The English light roadster designs, in particular, tended to take what we would recognize as their early-modern well before Schwinn began making the New World.
> 
> By the late 1930s, the American bicycle market was heavily slanted toward children riding balloon tire bikes. The balloon tire bikes had revitalized a market that was not doing particularly well up to that point. The bicycle manufacturers in the US hoped that cycling would catch on with American teens and adults - that more modern bicycle designs inspired by the light roadsters of Britain in particular could revitalized adult cycling the way the balloon tire cruisers had revitalized the youth market. British bicycles had also been coming into the United States, particularly the Hercules, Phillips, and later the Raleigh bikes.
> 
> There certainly was some market for the bikes, but it proved to be disappointing compared to the sort of boom that the balloon tired cruisers had done for the American youth market. The real "boom" in adult cycling in the US would have to wait until the late 1960s and early 1970s. That boom provided quite a boost in the sector of adult riders who sought serious sporting, touring, and commuting bicycles.
> 
> The early light roadsters from the US makers we see today are leftovers from a hope the manufacturers had that they could expand the bicycle market into older teens and adults who wanted serious commuting or sporting goods. In that sense, they're the "odd men out" - too late for the cycling boom of the late 19th century, but too early for the boom of the 1960s-70s.



Sir Mike, 
You remind me of a question I've had for a while. When did Schwinn introduce lightweight bikes with inner tubes in the tires? The balloon tires were introduced in 1933, and everybody now thinks of these as 26 x 2.125, but from the old ads it looks like Schwinn originally used the term "balloon" to refer to tires with inner tubes, as opposed to the previous one-piece pneumatic tires. But I'm guessing the lightweights with inner tubes came later, as part of Frank Schwinn's efforts to sell bicycles to adults. And the 597mm bead seat diameter was used on some English tires, so is that where Schwinn got it? If they were influenced by the English light roadsters, then that would make sense. I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.


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## Oilit

Miq said:


> Got a few new additions from @GTs58.  Here's a 1940 D serial (D69242) on eBay with a multi-speed Sturmy, 9 hole rack, and nice Mesinger F-70 saddle.  It reminds me a lot of @vincev's whacky hand stamped I serial number bike.
> View attachment 1029911
> View attachment 1029912View attachment 1029913View attachment 1029914View attachment 1029915
> View attachment 1029916View attachment 1029917View attachment 1029918View attachment 1029919View attachment 1029920View attachment 1029921View attachment 1029922



I asked this seller about the hub on this bike. He was already maxed out on pictures for the listing, but he sent me another of the hub. It looks original to the bike.


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## Miq

@Oilit Great addition. Thanks!!


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## Miq

@schwinnlax was looking at this one a while back and thought I’d add it to the list tonight.  1946ish multi-gear with maroon paint.  Seat and pedals are not right, and there's a few other minor things wrong but it looks like a nice bike.  









Serial B45115.  

Gotta be close to Vincev's ladies B serial.  



Schwinnlax's thread: New World Correct Parts CABE Thread  The bike was on Minneapolis CL.





Who else has a wartime New World to add??


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## Miq

@GTs58 dug up a thread with this 1942 New World.  Neat black out hubs.  The rear bar mudguard stays look like replacements for broken original "wire" stays or maybe just another example of mix-master wartime building.  ??  I'm guessing replacements by how they're "attached" to the rear axle...



I74208 Serial Number is right in the 1942 mix.


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## Miq

@rennfaron dug up an old 2007 auction for this black step-thru.  Serial D11333 looks like 1940 to me.  Pretty sweet looking paint and decals.  Wish there were better pics...










 






Thanks @rennfaron !!!


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## mr.cycleplane

My 1940 New World model W3M serial D3099.


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## Miq

@mr.cycleplane That's an outstanding example!  3 piece crank, great paint, stripes, and decals, and "World" stamped Mesigner saddle.  I've never seen one of those before!  New Departures hubs with a Small Arm Brake.  Too cool.

That's a very well preserved prewar bike mr. cycleplane.  Thank you for adding it to the thread.  I captured it in the registry below:


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## 1motime

Hello all New World fans!  I am new to the CABE but a long time old bike old guy!  These light weights seem to be coming out of the woodwork.  From the beginning to Racers, Travelers and the whole evolution.  Never really paid much attention to them until this came along.  Prewar 3 speed, 3 piece crank, steel brakes, wire braces, etc.  Serial number looks to be D4607.  Came out of Northern California. Not sure of the back story.  This has seen some SERIOUS weathering.  Surface rust all over but no pitting.  What remains of the chrome is very shiny.  Tires and seat rotten but decals still readable.  Was completely frozen  but since taken completely apart.  Did the OA thing and it all cleaned up with NO visible damage to threads.  Seat frame has very nice chrome.  Bike looked like it had never been apart before.  Going to try to get ridable again with an oily cloth restoration for now.  Picked up some nice S6 wheels with Kendas.  My big issue is the Sturmey Archer hub.  Original to the bike but completely frozen.  Like to keep the original hub but any ideas of how to approach making it work?  Anyone out there who specializes in these?  Any help would be greatly appreciated!  Thanks


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## Miq

Thanks @1motime!  Another prewar with only four numbers after the letter in the serial.  We've seen a few of these now, including the frame from @bricycle that I've been adding the leading 0 to accidentally (fixed below), @vincev 's crazy I#### serial bike, and @mr.cycleplane 's D#### ride.  1940 was a fun year for these bikes and these #### examples usually have 3 piece cranks, fancy front sprockets, and multi speed hubs.  A lot nicer than the tourist coaster bikes like mine.  

I really like that the decals are still so bright even with the very dull paint.  I'm looking forward to seeing where you take it.  Can you tell what the original paint color was?  It looks like maroon under the BB.

You can really see why they call them "matress" saddles with the springs exposed.   

The rear hub looks not so corroded from the outside.  I have never taken a Sturmey apart, but I bet there is a lot of info here if you look for it and keep asking.   Keep going!!


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## Miq

@mr.cycleplane I saw another World stamped Mesinger saddle on eBay today.  It is slightly different than yours, and not in nearly as good a condition, but has a similar stamp.










Yours looks like the "Suspension Mattress" touring saddle with the top eyelets.







The eBay one looks more like a racing saddle but has bigger looking coil springs in back than this drawing.  ???


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## mr.cycleplane

Interesting seat-same cool logo! I like the 1939 date on it-Schwinn probably asked mesinger to come up with an English type saddle for this 'new' line of bikes!  Halfway between my touring and a racing saddle- has a definate touring look but not as deep.  hummmm...


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## rennfaron

This one sold a couple weeks ago...

@mr.cycleplane that red / maroon color on your NW is one of my fav colors on this bike. It works really well with the gold decals and pinstripes. Next in line is just straight black. Nice bike!


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## Miq

@rennfaron Nice!  Same top eyelet English style "World" stamped saddle as @mr.cycleplane 's.  

You're right, Mr. Cycleplane's bike's original 1940 maroon paint, pins, and decals (and saddle) are some of the best preserved examples we've seen for prewar New Worlds.  Still shines like it just came from the factory.


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## Alan Brase

My 1940 Superior came with a saddle exactly like that, except with the "Superior" logo. Nice to have it, but what a heavy pig! I guess coming of age in the 1970's around Unicanitor and Brooks Pro spoiled me as to what a full steel spring saddle weighs! but if you're already riding on rock hard sew ups, who wants to insulate from that exquisite torture! I'm older now. Might have to rethink this.


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## rennfaron

I always thought most have a show saddle and a riding saddle. Those old saddles don't hold up...


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## 1motime

My prewar New World that is pictured earlier in this thread obviously needs a seat.  I know these bikes were offered with choices.  I sort of like the originality of the Mattress.  Has anyone had one recovered / restored?  A bit more complicated than a normal seat from the same period.  Did they have a badge or just the stamp?


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## rennfaron

The problem with the 40s lightweight world saddles is they weren't built to endure 70+ years. It isn't actually leather and more of a leatherette, even if that. I bought a somewhat poorly recovered 50s lightweight mattress saddle. From what I saw, yes it can be done. The main thing is having a template to work from. And to get a template you need to have an original saddle that you can de-stitch, lay it flat, and use that to cut your new material from (also marking the rivet holes). Hopefully you use a beat up one for this purpose and don't rip apart a good one. From there it is a matter of stitching it back together. I think it could be done on a sewing machine that could accept the thicker material. The back part would be the hardest, where a few different planes of material come together. As far as the stamp goes, that would need to be custom made, as I have not seen that (unless someone has done this before out there). That part isn't all that hard either - https://www.etsy.com/listing/599714056/customized-branding-iron-stamps-custom - getting the design made up would be relatively easy. The backs have a schwinn plate riveted on.


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## SirMike1983

This is strictly from experience dealing with these bikes and parts - I'm not an expert or professional with saddle restoration. I'm talking here about the "tourist" or lightweight-style saddles from the 1940s. Some of the bikes had saddles from balloon tire bikes, which are a different animal.

The covering material was often called "fabrikoid" - a way of applying a spray to cloth to give it a leather-like appearance. It started with luggage but proved quite popular. It usually dries out and is brittle after 70+ years. I wouldn't put a whole lot of miles on an original saddle. The base material varies. Usually there's a layer of cusioning horse hair or other padding and a metal pan. Sometimes you have a heavy-duty leather layer in there as well. They vary somewhat, but I would deem the materials to be on the "primitive side" - cloth fabrikoid, horse hair, leather padding, batting, etc. Again, none of this gets better with 70 years of age - it all dries out. Some saddles have a solid metal base plate, others use springs in a hammock fashion. 

The one constant with the "tourist" saddles I've seen is that they're uncomfortable by 70 years later. I did come across a couple 1950s-60s era saddles that were a bit better. But the early stuff from the 1940s was universally bad - very dry, very hard, or simply mis-formed with age. Some of the saddles are fascinating - slide rails, tornado springs, etc. But they're period pieces and something to keep with the bike rather than to ride. Even the ones that looked nice did not ride very well. I don't own a single one of the period saddles any more. 

Every bike I own today, except for one, has a Brooks saddle on it (I own one ballooner, and that has a Troxel long spring - but different animal again). The Brooks B66 is my suggestion for a rider saddle. Save the original ones to complete the bike, but ride something newer and which you can custom break-in.


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## 1motime

rennfaron said:


> The problem with the 40s lightweight world saddles is they weren't built to endure 70+ years. It isn't actually leather and more of a leatherette, even if that. I bought a somewhat poorly recovered 50s lightweight mattress saddle. From what I saw, yes it can be done. The main thing is having a template to work from. And to get a template you need to have an original saddle that you can de-stitch, lay it flat, and use that to cut your new material from (also marking the rivet holes). Hopefully you use a beat up one for this purpose and don't rip apart a good one. From there it is a matter of stitching it back together. I think it could be done on a sewing machine that could accept the thicker material. The back part would be the hardest, where a few different planes of material come together. As far as the stamp goes, that would need to be custom made, as I have not seen that (unless someone has done this before out there). That part isn't all that hard either - https://www.etsy.com/listing/599714056/customized-branding-iron-stamps-custom - getting the design made up would be relatively easy. The backs have a schwinn plate riveted on.





SirMike1983 said:


> This is strictly from experience dealing with these bikes and parts - I'm not an expert or professional with saddle restoration. I'm talking here about the "tourist" or lightweight-style saddles from the 1940s. Some of the bikes had saddles from balloon tire bikes, which are a different animal.
> 
> The covering material was often called "fabrikoid" - a way of applying a spray to cloth to give it a leather-like appearance. It started with luggage but proved quite popular. It usually dries out and is brittle after 70+ years. I wouldn't put a whole lot of miles on an original saddle. The base material varies. Usually there's a layer of cusioning horse hair or other padding and a metal pan. Sometimes you have a heavy-duty leather layer in there as well. They vary somewhat, but I would deem the materials to be on the "primitive side" - cloth fabrikoid, horse hair, leather padding, batting, etc. Again, none of this gets better with 70 years of age - it all dries out. Some saddles have a solid metal base plate, others use springs in a hammock fashion.
> 
> The one constant with the "tourist" saddles I've seen is that they're uncomfortable by 70 years later. I did come across a couple 1950s-60s era saddles that were a bit better. But the early stuff from the 1940s was universally bad - very dry, very hard, or simply mis-formed with age. Some of the saddles are fascinating - slide rails, tornado springs, etc. But they're period pieces and something to keep with the bike rather than to ride. Even the ones that looked nice did not ride very well. I don't own a single one of the period saddles any more.
> 
> Every bike I own today, except for one, has a Brooks saddle on it (I own one ballooner, and that has a Troxel long spring - but different animal again). The Brooks B66 is my suggestion for a rider saddle. Save the original ones to complete the bike, but ride something newer and which you can custom break-in.



ThT

Thanks guys!  That is what I thought. Hate to give up on original part.  Same as using the original size rims.  Not going to realistically happen.   I know the original seat cover material is probably not a good idea to match.  It could be done in a fairly stiff leather with the correct underlayer material.   Everything is supported by the cross springs.  Then the back panel, rivets, top eyelets, etc. Than the visuals of a stamp and badge.   Sometimes it is wiser to shift gears.  Since this is a 3 speed it is possible!  These bikes were "platform" bikes so maybe have to find something convential that would have  been offered when new.


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## rennfaron

The other saddle types I have seen come standard look like this...studded and not studded.


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## 1motime

rennfaron said:


> The other saddle types I have seen come standard look like this...studded and not studded.
> 
> View attachment 1087581
> 
> View attachment 1087582



Thanks for the images.  I have an idea of what is a good replacement.  Now to find one!  All timing!


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## Miq

@Alan Brase That mattress saddle came in a few different forms.  There were Paramount and Superior versions like you mentioned.  The Paramount was real leather but the Superior was the "imitation leather" fabrikoid that @SirMike1983 wrote about.



I've been trying to figure out the prewar New World saddle options this past year.  Here's some more info on possible saddles.  Like @rennfaron showed above, there were Mesinger rubber padded seat options too.  I found a 30's long spring Troxel for my bike that sort of looks like these, but I think it may be a little older than the bike.  I'm ok with that.   It's super comfy.

Here's the saddle info from the 1940 parts catalog.  It only shows drawings ("photos") of the Mesinger padded saddles from the top but you can see it has the nose coil.







It does not show the drawings of the 1407 Mesinger Racing Saddle for New World, 7000 World Lightweight Saddle for New World, or the 7000A Lightweight Saddle for New World English Type

I'm thinking the 7000 is the World stamped saddle we see on @mr.cycleplane 's New World

@1motime I've heard most people say the same thing about the "matress suspension" saddles as rennfaron and SirMike1983.  They are worn out after 70+ years.  @piercer_99 is the only person I've heard say he's ridden a mattress saddle that wasn't worn out, and it was OK.  Trying to recreate or even improve the springs in the top suspension would be a challenge.  You can't easily re-compress the springs or find exact replacements I'm guessing.  ??  It's clearly not a design that has stood the test of time, and the mattress style seems to have died for a reason.  Not that comfy and not that durable.


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## rennfaron

@Miq so it looks like there were three "standard" options down at the bottom for the NW. The mesinger racing saddle I am pretty sure is inline with one of the two or both of those saddles I posted (could just be from different years). The second, the World Lightweight Saddle, is the one we have referenced, with the world stamp. Do you know what that last one would be? And this saddle note in the '41 catalog: Schwinn english type lightweight or mesinger.


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## Miq

@rennfaron I think we are posting the same ideas right on top of each other.    I also think we are on the same page with the names.  He's my take:

#1407 Mesinger Racing Saddle











#7000 World Stamped "World Lightweight Saddle"




#7000A "Lightweight Saddle for New World English Type" could be something like this but I can't figure it out:





 It's a less expensive version of an English saddle.

The Mesinger options at the top of the 1940 parts list looked like these, or some OEM version of them for Schwinn:


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## Miq

I got some great new pics of the 1940 New World @bricycle added to our list months ago.  He sent me some more info on the bike and pics from when he received it. He helped fill in some of the questions we still had about this bike.  This is another of the 1940 bikes with only 4 numbers after the letter in the serial number.  These bikes have all been nicer than your average New World Tourist and include 3 speed coaster hubs, 3 piece cranks, and nice chainrings.  Bricycle's New World has maroon paint with gold decals and pin stripes. It came with white painted wheels and a front hand brake.  








































​One of the first New Worlds with rear dropouts starting in 1940.

Updated Chart:



 Thanks again @bricycle !!


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## Alan Brase

rennfaron said:


> @Miq so it looks like there were three "standard" options down at the bottom for the NW. The mesinger racing saddle I am pretty sure is inline with one of the two or both of those saddles I posted (could just be from different years). The second, the World Lightweight Saddle, is the one we have referenced, with the world stamp. Do you know what that last one would be? And this saddle note in the '41 catalog: Schwinn english type lightweight or mesinger.



If I could just find a dealer to order spares off that sheet... I'd like to order about 10 of the English style saddles at $1.80 each. Probably NOT a Brooks, but I imagine in 1940 there were dozens of leather seat makers in England. Middlemore, maybe. 
I have to say I find it amazing the range of optional extras and specifications the New World bike could be ordered with. I think Schwinn was dipping their toe in the water, so to speak, as far as testing the market.
At some point, Schwinn were the biggest bike manufacturers in the world, I think. At least the richest? So, they certainly had the technology to bring a lightweight to the US market.


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## Oilit

Miq said:


> I got some great new pics of the 1940 New World @bricycle added to our list months ago.  He sent me some more info on the bike and pics from when he received it. He helped fill in some of the questions we still had about this bike.  This is another of the 1940 bikes with only 4 numbers after the letter in the serial number.  These bikes have all been nicer than your average New World Tourist and include 3 speed coaster hubs, 3 piece cranks, and nice chainrings.  Bricycle's New World has maroon paint with gold decals and pin stripes. It came with white painted wheels and a front hand brake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> One of the first New Worlds with rear dropouts starting in 1940.
> 
> Updated Chart:
> View attachment 1087869
> Thanks again @bricycle !!



Bricycle's pictures aren't showing up for me. There are 10 icons, but none of them open. Is anybody else having this issue?


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## GTs58

Oilit said:


> Bricycle's pictures aren't showing up for me. There are 10 icons, but none of them open. Is anybody else having this issue?




Yup, they're not working.


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## Miq

Weird. I can see them. Can you see this pic of the pics


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## Miq

Bricycle's New World Pics Try #2









































​


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## GTs58

I can see the one picture in post 106 but not the ones posted in #107.....


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## Miq

Bricycle's New World Pics Try 3


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## Miq

I take it from GTs58's "Like" of Try 3 that the Bricycle pics are visible now. 

A couple of things.  I started the original post about Bricycle's NW when they shut the site down and updated it.  I finished it when the lights came back on later that night.

It seems like cutting and pasting pictures is a lot more finicky than it used to be.  I used to be able to quickly cut and paste pics from private messages into new posts, and also from the Snipping Tool in Windows.  Doesn't seem like that's working right.  I'll see if someone already mentioned it to the Admins.


----------



## Alan Brase

Miq said:


> I take it from GTs58's "Like" of Try 3 that the Bricycle pics are visible now.
> 
> A couple of things.  I started the original post about Bricycle's NW when they shut the site down and updated it.  I finished it when the lights came back on later that night.
> 
> It seems like cutting and pasting pictures is a lot more finicky than it used to be.  I used to be able to quickly cut and paste pics from private messages into new posts, and also from the Snipping Tool in Windows.  Doesn't seem like that's working right.  I'll see if someone already mentioned it to the Admins.



I trust you'll figure it out. You've done pretty damned good so far!


----------



## Oilit

Miq said:


> I take it from GTs58's "Like" of Try 3 that the Bricycle pics are visible now.
> 
> A couple of things.  I started the original post about Bricycle's NW when they shut the site down and updated it.  I finished it when the lights came back on later that night.
> 
> It seems like cutting and pasting pictures is a lot more finicky than it used to be.  I used to be able to quickly cut and paste pics from private messages into new posts, and also from the Snipping Tool in Windows.  Doesn't seem like that's working right.  I'll see if someone already mentioned it to the Admins.



This is just to let you know that "Try #3" worked.


----------



## Miq

@Oilit Thank you!

It turns out the Cut and Paste functionality is whacked out when using Internet Explorer/Edge.  When I use another browser like Chrome, it works fine.  

You can see this right?


----------



## Oilit

Miq said:


> @Oilit Thank you!
> 
> It turns out the Cut and Paste functionality is whacked out when using Internet Explorer/Edge.  When I use another browser like Chrome, it works fine.
> 
> You can see this right?
> View attachment 1090417



Affirmative! A very nice blue 5-speed Corvette!


----------



## GTs58

Another D four number serial on this really super nice condition example.To bad not many around back then (2007) to help out with the OP's questions.









						Can anyone date this New World? | Vintage Lightweight Bicycles
					

My 30s vintage Schwinn New World (serial # D6340) makes it into North Louisiana Military and Aviation Museum.  I think these were first built in 1939. Can anyone date this one with more precision based on serial number or components? (See photos)  Another question: Were the "Victory Bikes"...




					thecabe.com


----------



## Miq

Nice find @GTs58 !  BikeBug has a nice 1940 bike with the 3 piece cranks etc.  We've been on a good run of 1940 New Worlds lately!!  











Wish Bob "Pre-War New World Project in the Shed" Hufford - Springfield, MO was still around to tell us about his projects too.


----------



## rollfaster

Miq said:


> Nice find @GTs58 !  BikeBug has a nice 1940 bike with the 3 piece cranks etc.  We've been on a good run of 1940 New Worlds lately!!
> View attachment 1090819View attachment 1090820View attachment 1090821
> View attachment 1090822
> 
> Wish Bob "Pre-War New World Project in the Shed" Hufford - Springfield, MO was still around to tell us about his projects too.
> 
> View attachment 1090823



That’s one beautiful machine!!


----------



## rollfaster

Here’s a 1940 pair owned by @Brent. Very nice and mostly original.


----------



## Miq

Thanks @rollfaster !   Those are in great shape.  Maybe @Brent can help me fill in the serial numbers for the chart. The men’s bike looks like a good rider with the modern pedals.


----------



## GTs58

What's up with Brent's girls "Hat in the Ring" seat post decal? Is that one of the early early decals? All gold and no background colors?


----------



## Miq

@GTs58 I noticed the difference in the decals too. I like the all gold.


----------



## rollfaster

Serial numbers.


----------



## Miq

Thanks @rollfaster !  I love how nice the paint is in the areas that got wiped off.  Those are in great shape.  Nice pair of 1940 New Worlds.


----------



## Miq

One thing I had never noticed before is that the back half of the clamps that hold the chain guard on are not painted.  I looked at my bike and pics of other New Worlds, and it's the same.  The contrast is so obvious in the pics of the great paint on Brent’s bikes, but is less obvious with the missing paint and corrosion on my bike. There's always more to learn and notice.


----------



## Miq

@DaveZ is helping a friend get a 1941 New World rolling again.  He was nice enough to provide his friend's bike's serial and some info for our chart.



DaveZ said:


> 1941, H63906, NOT, Wire Front & Back, NO BO parts, Rear Dropouts
> 
> Originally had a SA 3sp, quadrant shifter, Front & Rear calipers. I have the 1941 SA 3sp, the quadrant shifter and front brakes. Blue with gold pinstriping; but the PS is gone. Missing one rear fender brace and rear caliper. They probably took the rear caliper off when they pout the ND hub on it. Rims didn't have tires on them so any writing inside is gone. I do have wartime tires so I can see if they are the same size.








Looking forward to seeing what this bike looks like.  It's the first 3 sp from 1941 we've seen. I wonder if it looks something like @Arfsaidthebee 's Blue 1941 coaster.  This is Arf's:


----------



## Jim sciano

Figured I would post a few pics of my cleaned up 1940 women’s new world. Took a ton of elbow grease but I couldn’t see this bike parted out. This bike is already on the list. F serial number. First three pics are before I cleaned it up


----------



## Kickstand3

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Kickstand3

Kickstand3 said:


> View attachment 1099857
> 
> 42 original
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro




Oops not a New World


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GenuineRides

Found another to add to the list!!!  This one with an unusual Lincoln downtube decal and Unisco badge, pat. pending rear high flange hub, frame dates to 1940, rims are rough though which is too bad.  Actually has one wartime tire yet.


----------



## Miq

@Jim sciano Holy $h!t that's sweet!  The paint and pins and decals look amazing after all of your work.  That's a very well preserved bike.  The chrome is even nice.  


@GenuineRides It must be 1940 F serial day today!  We have a step thru and a men's in one day.  

That's a very unique New World.  The badging and the features don't look like anything else we've seen.  3 piece crank, AS&Co Chainring, front and rear caliper brakes, a war tire left, and pat pend high flange rear hub.  Really interesting and adds to the 1940 New World mix-master, "build them however you want", story.  

I'll add them to the chart tonight.  Thanks guys!


----------



## 1motime

That white 40 woman's New World is a beauty!  Fantastic pin stripes and chrome.  Even on the Miller stand.  Good to see that these bikes are coming out. 
 I have a question.  I am looking for a front fender for a prewar New World.  I thought an early Racer fender would work.  Same fin.  Looking at all these photos it seems that the New World front fender is much longer at the rear end.  Am I seeing things?  Mine rotted off at the brace.  Maybe they held water more by wrapping around the tire so Schwinn shortened them.  What do you think?  
Anyone with a straight rusty patina front fender??  Help!


----------



## rollfaster

Jim sciano said:


> Figured I would post a few pics of my cleaned up 1940 women’s new world. Took a ton of elbow grease but I couldn’t see this bike parted out. This bike is already on the list. F serial number. First three pics are before I cleaned it up  View attachment 1099849
> View attachment 1099850
> 
> View attachment 1099851
> 
> View attachment 1099852
> 
> View attachment 1099853
> 
> View attachment 1099854
> 
> View attachment 1099855



Incredible transformation!


----------



## GTs58

Is that an E or an F on Genuine's NW? Looks like it could be an E  where the bottom was hit a little lighter, but I'm cross eyed.


----------



## GenuineRides

GTs58 said:


> Is that an E or an F on Genuine's NW? Looks like it could be an E where the bottom was hit a little lighter, but I'm cross eyed.
> 
> View attachment 1099996




Correction, it is an E, I took the magnifying glass to it and there is a faint bottom. Thanks GTs58 for the catch!


----------



## Miq

Good eye @GTs58 .  Reminds me of the I / L confusion on this '36 frame  :




Added @GenuineRides black E serial bike and updated @Jim sciano 's description.  I'm splitting the chart at 1942 USA enters WWII (I serials is our educated guess).  It was getting too big for one pic.


----------



## Miq

Digging through some posts today and came across some threads with prewar New World racers to add to the list.  @sb1 has a new thread going on his racer that pointed me to these..

@Champy posted a racer back in 2013 here.  Serial D2629  3 piece crank, red with white wheels, war time tires, New Departure hub















@Nigelshaffer posted this racer back in 2013 as well.













@sb1 's Liberty badged Racer.  This bike is very cool with OG rims, racing pedals, rear fork ends, black pin stripes....


















@Big Moe had this one back in 2017. It's a tourist frame and fork dressed up like a racer. There's nothing wrong with that, just pointing it out. 



















@ccdc.1 Pointed out the way to tell the Racer frames from the Tourist frames.  The racer frames' chain stay braces are a lot closer to the bottom bracket.  Since there wasn't going to be a mudguard that attached, they could place them closer to the BB.  Also the racing fork is steeper with less rake.

Real Racer frames with close brace







Not real racer frame with far brace


----------



## Miq

Racer fork vs Tourist fork is more subtle looking:

Racer




Tourist




Latest Charts


----------



## Miq

We've been looking at these weird hand stamped 1940 bikes a lot.  @GTs58 and I have been talking about why there could be a couple of different serial numbering operations on the same line of bikes.  In 1940 we have seen both machine stamped New Worlds like this:




and hand stamped New Worlds like this (especially weird VERY far right 0 and small D




The realization we came to recently is that it looks like all the hand stamped frames we've seen with the letter then 4 digits, have the smaller bottom bracket (BB) that works with the 3 piece crank.  The BB on the machine stamped frames is larger and works with the 1 piece dog leg cranks.  There had to be two different lines working on these bikes.  The hand stamped bikes are always much better equipped bikes with 3 speed hubs etc. or Racers.  I can imagine the guys building these bikes were taking more time than the guys on the line building the more mass produced tourist bikes. 

This also helps to explain how @vincev 's bike could have gotten such an odd I serial stamp in 1940.  What was that hand stamp guy drinking the night before?  If you're doing it by hand, a lot more "variation" can creep in.   




@s1b 's hand stamped serial is nuts too with the C covered with a sideways 0:




What do you guys think?


----------



## s1b

Miq said:


> We've been looking at these weird hand stamped 1940 bikes a lot.  @GTs58 and I have been talking about why there could be a couple of different serial numbering operations on the same line of bikes.  In 1940 we have seen both machine stamped New Worlds like this:
> View attachment 1101278
> 
> and hand stamped New Worlds like this (especially weird VERY far right 0 and small D
> View attachment 1101280
> 
> The realization we came to recently is that it looks like all the hand stamped frames we've seen with the letter then 4 digits, have the smaller bottom bracket (BB) that works with the 3 piece crank.  The BB on the machine stamped frames is larger and works with the 1 piece dog leg cranks.  There had to be two different lines working on these bikes.  The hand stamped bikes are always much better equipped bikes with 3 speed hubs etc. or Racers.  I can imagine the guys building these bikes were taking more time than the guys on the line building the more mass produced tourist bikes.
> 
> This also helps to explain how @vincev 's bike could have gotten such an odd I serial stamp in 1940.  What was that hand stamp guy drinking the night before?  If you're doing it by hand, a lot more "variation" can creep in.
> View attachment 1101281
> 
> @s1b 's hand stamped serial is nuts too with the C covered with a sideways 0:
> View attachment 1101283
> 
> What do you guys think?



That isn’t my white Racer. It was one I was looking at buying. Not sure if it sold.


----------



## Miq

@s1b  calling it yours was wishful thinking on my part.    You are the “contributor” of that bike to this thread even if you don’t own it.   it’s a very cool bike.


----------



## Kramai88

I started the rehab on this one. BFGOODRICH badge serial number J01687. I guess that makes it a 42 to 44. All the parts are black out. As you can see the front and back rims do not match but both have black out hubs. I know this is crazy but could they be original? I know it probably just got changed at some point but with it being a war time bike it made me wonder 















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kramai88

I started the rehab on this one. BFGOODRICH badge serial number J01687. I guess that makes it a 42 to 44. All the parts are black out. As you can see the front and back rims do not match but both have black out hubs. I know this is crazy but could they be original? I know it probably just got changed at some point but with it being a war time bike it made me wonder 














Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kramai88

I started the rehab on this one. BFGOODRICH badge serial number J01687. I guess that makes it a 42 to 44. All the parts are black out. As you can see the front and back rims do not match but both have black out hubs. I know this is crazy but could they be original? I know it probably just got changed at some point but with it being a war time bike it made me wonder 














Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Miq

@Kramai88 So much better without all the blue paint!  Great job!  I will add it to the chart.  The later I and the J serial bikes have had a lot of black out parts.  You own a nice wartime "victory bike".  Schwinn may not have been allowed by the govt. to do war time production of new bike parts, except for cycle trucks, but they certainly assembled a bunch of New World bikes with frames they had (on hand?) and black out parts available those years.  Does anyone doubt that now?  How may of these bike do we need to find?    

Thanks for adding another one.


----------



## Miq

I noticed that your BFG badge is the newer style than the one on my 41 BFG New World.  @BFGforme Does this make sense from what you've seen and now Kramai88's bike?  

Top Row = Prewar
Bottom Row = WARTIME & post war.




The two different colored wheels is really odd.  Not sure that's legit. But I do think the 1 bar stay and 1 wire stay attachments for the front and rear mudguards is factory.  We've seen some serious variation in that during the war.  Yours is the earliest we've seen with both styles on the same bike.



Here's the wartime - post war chart with @Kramai88 's New World added.  Let me know if you want to edit anything.  Thanks!!


----------



## Miq

Got some serial number pics from @rennfaron of a pair of his and hers black New Worlds he owns.  It got a few of us thinking about the odd hand stamping we've seen on the 1940 three piece crank New Worlds.  Specifically, @vincev 's men's maroon bike is a 1940 three piece crank New World but it has an "I" serial number that does not fit for this year. Here's the pic we have for @vincev 's BB:



We have it listed as I5384.

With the exception of the white 1939-40 NW Racer, that @rennfaron now possesses   , all the 3 piece crank versions with 4 digit serial numbers start with D.  Here are some other examples:

Big Moe D5440




rennfaron's black New Worlds w 3 piece cranks:







Not as easy to read, but 1motime's 1940 NW D4607




The thing that sticks out is that the "D" stamp does not look right.  It is smaller than the digits and looks like it is made from two stamps struck on top of one another.  Is it an "I" with an "O" combined with it, or a backwards "C"???  It's especially clear on the black frames above.

Here's a close up of Big Moe's combo stuck "D":


  I see an "O" with an "I" on top of it.  It isn't lined up very well so you can see the two different letters.  Same with renn's black serials.  To me it looks like they are trying to make a D using two other stamps like this:




@vincev I imagine your 1940 New World is not right at your fingertips.  *When the weather is good again or you get a wild hair, is there any chance you could take another look at your 3 piece crank BB and see if there is any evidence of a light "O" stamp hiding with the "I" too?* It sure would make a lot more sense if your 1940 four digit serial numbered bike with 3 piece crank started with one of these I/O combo "D"s instead of an I. 

It's also interesting to note that the other bikes built this year that were tourist bikes (1 piece cranks) were built using a different frame on what appears to be a different line.  The smaller BB used with the 3 piece cranks on these frames was not serialized using the machine stamper for the tourist frames.  The machine stamped tourist bike frames also start with the letter "D" but they are followed with 5 number digits and the D is a normal letter D stamp.

Here's the chart with the 1940 serial data for comparison.  @vincev 's bike is really out of place with it's I serial in 1940.   I haven't added @rennfaron 's black D serial bikes yet...


----------



## SirMike1983

We should have the chart by itself as a sticky thread in the Schwinn lightweights forum - doesn't need to be discussion, just the chart as an editable sticky.


----------



## vincev

Miq said:


> Got some serial number pics from @rennfaron of a pair of his and hers black New Worlds he owns.  It got a few of us thinking about the odd hand stamping we've seen on the 1940 three piece crank New Worlds.  Specifically, @vincev 's men's maroon bike is a 1940 three piece crank New World but it has an "I" serial number that does not fit for this year. Here's the pic we have for @vincev 's BB:
> View attachment 1101814
> We have it listed as I5384.
> 
> With the exception of the white 1939-40 NW Racer, that @rennfaron now possesses   , all the 3 piece crank versions with 4 digit serial numbers start with D.  Here are some other examples:
> 
> Big Moe D5440
> View attachment 1101818
> 
> rennfaron's black New Worlds w 3 piece cranks:
> View attachment 1101819
> View attachment 1101820
> 
> Not as easy to read, but 1motime's 1940 NW D4607
> View attachment 1101821
> 
> The thing that sticks out is that the "D" stamp does not look right.  It is smaller than the digits and looks like it is made from two stamps struck on top of one another.  Is it an "I" with an "O" combined with it, or a backwards "C"???  It's especially clear on the black frames above.
> 
> Here's a close up of Big Moe's combo stuck "D":
> View attachment 1101822  I see an "O" with an "I" on top of it.  It isn't lined up very well so you can see the two different letters.  Same with renn's black serials.  To me it looks like they are trying to make a D using two other stamps like this:
> View attachment 1101823
> 
> @vincev I imagine your 1940 New World is not right at your fingertips.  *When the weather is good again or you get a wild hair, is there any chance you could take another look at your 3 piece crank BB and see if there is any evidence of a light "O" stamp hiding with the "I" too?* It sure would make a lot more sense if your 1940 four digit serial numbered bike with 3 piece crank started with one of these I/O combo "D"s instead of an I.
> 
> It's also interesting to note that the other bikes built this year that were tourist bikes (1 piece cranks) were built using a different frame on what appears to be a different line.  The smaller BB used with the 3 piece cranks on these frames was not serialized using the machine stamper for the tourist frames.  The machine stamped tourist bike frames also start with the letter "D" but they are followed with 5 number digits and the D is a normal letter D stamp.
> 
> Here's the chart with the 1940 serial data for comparison.  @vincev 's bike is really out of place with it's I serial in 1940.   I haven't added @rennfaron 's black D serial bikes yet...
> View attachment 1101832



Heres a better pic.........


----------



## Kramai88

The other New World I have has been restored, not by me. I don’t know what may have been used as far as different parts during restoration. The serial number looks like I 3760 but the original owner wrote it down as “D” 3760. It’s hard to tell with the new paint. 







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Miq

vincev said:


> Heres a better pic.........
> 
> 
> View attachment 1101942




@vincev you made me a happy man with your new pic!  That makes a whole lot more sense.  The I turned into an I/O combo D and the 3 we originally had is really a 2!  Your D5284 serial bike is quite at home with the other D serial 3 piece crank bikes from 1940.  Thank you for helping us piece this together with info from your collection.  I have corrected the chart entry for your bike.   



SirMike1983 said:


> We should have the chart by itself as a sticky thread in the Schwinn lightweights forum - doesn't need to be discussion, just the chart as an editable sticky.




OK.  Should we PM an Admin or how could I make that happen?

@Kramai88 Thank you for adding this restored bike!  The original owner had the right serial info IMHO.  Your bike looks like another I/O combo D serial bike from 1940 with a 3 piece crank and smaller BB.  The bar stays on the mudguards are replacements for the very easily broken wire ones used until some time in WWII.  Your other BFG badged NW is from this transition era when both were used, and even has both on the same bike.  Cool additions!!!

I moved vincev's entry and corrected the number, added Kramai88's restored bike, and started to add the two black bikes from rennfaron to the chart since we have already been using the serial info from them:


----------



## vincev

Miq said:


> @vincev you made me a happy man with your new pic!  That makes a whole lot more sense.  The I turned into an I/O combo D and the 3 we originally had is really a 2!  Your D5284 serial bike is quite at home with the other D serial 3 piece crank bikes from 1940.  Thank you for helping us piece this together with info from your collection.  I have corrected the chart entry for your bike.
> 
> 
> 
> OK.  Should we PM an Admin or how could I make that happen?
> 
> @Kramai88 Thank you for adding this restored bike!  The original owner had the right serial info IMHO.  Your bike looks like another I/O combo D serial bike from 1940 with a 3 piece crank and smaller BB.  The bar stays on the mudguards are replacements for the very easily broken wire ones used until some time in WWII.  Your other BFG badged NW is from this transition era when both were used, and even has both on the same bike.  Cool additions!!!
> 
> I moved vincev's entry and corrected the number, added Kramai88's restored bike, and started to add the two black bikes from rennfaron to the chart since we have already been using the serial info from them:
> 
> View attachment 1102212
> View attachment 1102213



Mystery solved.lol Funny how that didnt show up in other pics.


----------



## Miq

@vincev It goes to show you that a picture says a thousand words, but sometimes those words are wrong.  You can't believe everything you see on the internet, can you?  

Thank you for revisiting it.  If you didn't look again, we'd still be wondering.


----------



## bikerbluz

Here are a few pics of my newly acquired New World which is badged Goodrich.


----------



## Miq

Finally a G serial!  Thank you @bikerbluz !  That's a sweet ride that's just a few months older than mine. I can't wait to see how it cleans up.


----------



## GTs58

Interesting that the BFG's didn't have the Hat in the Ring decal.


----------



## PCHiggin

Would still like to know the connection between Schwinn and Eddie Rickenbacker or his squadron,if any


----------



## GTs58

PCHiggin said:


> Would still like to know the connection between Schwinn and Eddie Rickenbacker or his squadron,if any



There is absolutely no connection between the two. I posted about this here a while back but don't remember where. It started with the Paramounts racing history. Google the phase, "Throw your hat in the ring" and read the below and you'll understand why that decal was first used on the Paramounts and then the lightweights.


----------



## rennfaron

My assumption is it had more to do with Schwinn honoring and being inspired by the squadron as a whole and their insignia, the hat-in-the-ring, and not just Eddie. More about the squadron here. In my research I found no personal connection between Schwinn and Eddie. It was also a very good marketing strategy to borrow / reappropriate an insignia that already had so much visual worth. The curious thing to me is how Schwinn was able to basically rip it off and use it for his own designs / marketing / profits.

*I found this interesting write talking about both Schwinn and Rickenbacker. The snippet talks about the first race to the clouds event. It sounded like they were both in attendance, but for different reasons. *

_THE FIRST HILL CLIMB _​_There were multiple classes to compete in, including motorcycles, with prizes ranging from $500 to $2,000. The overall winner would be awarded a 43-inch trophy gilded in Colorado silver and gold and worth $10,000 (but only on loan for a year). The course was grueling and dangerous: 12% miles, two lanes, and mostly gravel, it began at 9,390 feet and climbed 4,078 feet through 156 unprotected turns bordering sheer cliffs. The drop-off at the Bottomless Pit turn was 6,000 feet. Weather conditions at those altitudes are fickle and constantly changing—a driver starting off in full sunshine might encounter sleet, high winds, hail, fog, and snow on the way to the finish. _​​_Among the contestants were racing legend Barney Oldfield, fresh from becoming the first person to drive a 100-mph lap at the Indy 500 that May, and Eddie Rickenbacker, soon to become a flying ace in WWI and later owner of the Indy 500 Speedway. However, neither could challenge the eventual winner, the youngest driver in the field, 22-year-old Rea Lentz. He drove the course in 20 minutes, 55.6 seconds. (After collecting the prize money, he vanished and was never heard of in racing circles again.) _​​_The "Race to the Clouds" was an instant success. As with the Indy 500, automakers were drawn to Pikes Peak as a means of testing and perfecting every aspect of their cars—durability, engine performance, handling under rugged conditions, braking—plus getting publicity for them. Open-wheel cars dominated the first 10 years, then a stock car division was added in 1929. From the beginning, the motorcycle division was one of the most hotly contested. In the inaugural race, 19 of the 29 motorcycle entries were Excelsiors, built by Ignaz Schwinn (who later turned his mechanical skills to making bicycles)._​LINK​
*I found some information, from a now defunct website, talking about the hat-in-the-ring meaning. *

The "Hat-in-the-Ring" insignia has been linked with World War 1 ace Eddie Rickenbacker and the 94th. Squadron since it's inception. Many have wondered how the insignia came to be. Below are two stories of the creation of the insignia and the famous pins that Rickenbacker gave all of the men in the squadron during both wars. There has been some speculation as to whether or not the wearing of these pins above one's wings was ever officially sanctioned and there is also reports that only the officers of the 94th. received them. These topics are best left to the discussions of those who were there, however I have added a small editorial comment at the end of these two articles.​​_*(first story)*_​_*THE ORIGINATION OF THE "HAT-IN-THE- RING" - By: Eddie Rickenbacker*_​​_The expression of the "Hat-in-the-Ring" if memory does not fail me was created by President Theodore Roosevelt during one of his campaign speeches when running for the Presidency of the United States._​​_When the 94th. Squadron, which was the first American Fighting Squadron to arrive on the Western Front, I was a member of it, and since all squadrons _ American and Allied alike- were known by a certain type of insignia as well as numbers, we naturally tried to find a design appropriate for our squadron._​​_During many discussions, someone in our Squadron suggested using Uncle Sam's hat in colors, and automatically, someone else said, "Why not Uncle Sam's hat in the ring," was unanimously agreed upon because it was so significant, realizing that this was America's first fighting squadron on the front and it was a logical tie-in for the insignia as it was designed._​​_One of the pilots, Lt. Johnny Wentworth, happened to be an architect, and it fell to his lot to design, with the help of all others, this insignia which became world famous and which more or less became part of my life from that time on._​​_The 94th. became known all over the world as the "Hat-in-the-Ring" Squadron or Rickenbacker's "Hat-in-the-Ring" Squadron, and after the war was over, it was used as my insignia or emblem on the Rickenbacker car for several years._​​_Because of it being used on a commercial product, the Adjutant General instructed the 94th. Squadron of the Army Air Forces to discontinue its use, and the Indian Head was substituted as the Squadron emblem of the 94th._​​_During my trips throughout the United States for General Arnold, the purpose of which was to make a survey of our fighting Air Force combat units and to give them the benefit of my own experience and knowledge gained in World War 1, I had the opportunity of meeting the boys of this new 94th at Long Beach, California, where they were preparing to be activated to the European Theater with headquarters in England._​​_At that time, I presented the Squadron with a l large emblem on a four foot square sheet of cardboard in colors which gave the boys national publicity, and upon my return to Mitchell Field, at the completion of my trip, I found a letter, copy of which is attached, from General Arnold designating the "Hat-in-the-Ring" as the emblem of the new 94th. Squadron._​​_During World War 1, I took the design to a Paris jeweler and had a little insignia made up out of silver, which was worn by all the pilots of the 94th. above the wings on the left side of their tunic and was eventually recognized as the official insignia._​​_On my trip to the Far East, I realized I would meet the 94th. Squadron again in North Africa and had several hundred of these silver insignia pins made up and was given the authority by General Arnold before leaving to present them to every member of the Squadron, both officers and enlisted personnel, and was authorized to tell them they could wear them as the official insignia._​​_This historical background has been carried on admirably from one war through to the next by the boys of World War II._​​_Today, this Squadron is the only one equipped with the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Stars, and on the side of this jet-propelled fighter plane is the "Hat-in-the-Ring" as is noticed by photographs which I recently received from the group commander._​​_Nothing, in my opinion, symbolizes the spirit of the fight and challenge like this insignia, and so I have been given complete credit for its origination that has become part of my life._​​_*(second story)*_​_"HAT IN THE RING" ON THE MOON - By: Royal Frey_​​_Here's the story on the Hat-in-the-ring that Rickenbacker told me, as best I remember it. First, you must realize that in the 1960s and early 1970s, he and I were very good friends. In fact, he was almost like a father in that he never once turned me down when I needed him to do something for the museum. Whenever he came to Dayton, I was his escort - met him when he arrived at the Dayton airport, stuck with him every minute, put him to bed, got him up in the morning, and took him back to the airport and got him back on his plane to NYC. He always had to ride TWA because Eastern didn't come into Dayton. He even stayed here at my home, with the understanding I wouldn't let the local newspapers know he was here. That poor fellow seldom had any peace and quiet if a news hawk was around._​​_Anyway, here is the account. In the early 1920s when he was bringing out the Rickenbacker automobile, he wanted to use the old Hat- in-the- Ring as the auto's insignia. He said he contacted all of his old buddies (I assume he meant those pilots with whom he had flown in World War 1) and none of them objected, so he began to use it on his auto. He said that O.D. Hunter (who had stayed in the service) didn't like it and had the Hat-in-the-Ring cancelled out and the Indian Head of the 103rd. Aero Squadron (which evolved from the famous Escadrille Lafayette in Feb. 1918 in France) substituted to take its place, since the 103rd. was not reconstituted as an active duty outfit in the States following WWI._​​_He said that in WWII when Hap Arnold asked him to visit the 94th. to help improve its morale, he said he would and that he'd like to pass out small Hat-in-the-Ring lapel buttons. He said that Arnold said he thought this was a good idea, and then Rickenbacker told him there was on problem - the 94th. insigne was the old 103rd. Indian Head, not the Hat-in-the-Ring. He said that Arnold turned around to his phone and called someone and told him to change the 94th. insignia back to the Hat-in-the-Ring, which was done immediately._​​_Rickenbacker then told me that when he visited the 94th. in North Africa, he took along a supply of lapel Hat-in-the-Rings but he didn't have enough for every man in the squadron because the unit had a lot more personnel assigned it than it had in WWI, and he hadn't brought along a sufficient number for every man. He added that he had later had more made and sent to the 94th._​​_There you have it. This doesn't agree completely with his account in his autobiography that came out in 1967, and I don't have any explanation for any conflicts, but I know that at the time he told the story to me, he was being completely truthful. He was not the type to twist facts, least not intentionally. I say this because I did catch him in an error regarding the death of Major Raoul Luftbury in May, 1918, but I knew the true facts because I had visited the place of his death and had dug out facts from those Frenchmen who had witnessed his final aerial combat that had never been revealed before, even to Rickenbacker._​​_Talking about the WW1 Hat-in-the-Ring insignia from his planes, we had a couple at the USAF Museum and when Scott, Worden and Irwin were going to the moon on their Apollo mission, I got them to take along a large piece from one of his Hat-in-the-Rings. After they returned, they and Rickenbacker came to the museum for a public ceremony to return this priceless item to us for public display. This is the type of thing I used to dream up when I worked at the museum, which is why I always claimed that next to being a fighter pilot, I had the best job in the USAF._​​*EDITORIAL COMMENT*​​Although I cannot shed any real light on the controversy regarding the actual regulations on the wearing of the pins I can however add that, in a conversation with Russell East, formerly a photographer with the 94th.FS, that he did indeed receive one of the pins, as he asked me if there was anywhere I knew to get another -- his being long since lost. This would add creedence to the statement that all of the personnel did receive one.​​Another note about Rickenbacker's article; in it he states that upon returning the insignia to the 94th., in April of 1942, it was on a square piece of cardboard, yet photographs show the insignia was indeed round. Of exactly what significance this error represents, I can not say.​​These two articles contradict one another in many areas and in subsequent research I have only found more questions than answers concerning both matters. I will suffice it to say that, like the famous _Blue Patch,_ and _AAF Battle Jacket_, all have gone down in history as some of the more interesting footnotes of the Second World War.​​*Image from the dead website*​*

*​


----------



## GTs58

rennfaron said:


> My assumption is it had more to do with Schwinn honoring and being inspired by the squadron as a whole and their insignia, the hat-in-the-ring, and not just Eddie. More about the squadron here. In my research I found no personal connection between Schwinn and Eddie. It was also a very good marketing strategy to borrow / reappropriate an insignia that already had so much visual worth. The curious thing to me is how Schwinn was able to basically rip it off and use it for his own designs / marketing / profits.
> ​




Schwinn used it to say they were taking on the challenge and they were a contender in building the best bikes made. Throwing their hat in the ring. Had nothing to do with any war or Rickenbacker.


----------



## rennfaron

Yes, but Schwinn could have said that any number of ways. He didn’t just draw that chit himself or come up with that insignia. He lifted that. That was created by the squadron. And thus created the meaning behind it. Then Schwinn said I want to use that! And schwinn threw his hat-in-the-ring 30 some years after the company was started?? Mmmmk.

And I also agree it has no big connection to war or the squadron, but he did rip their logo off. Based on the inspiration from that Roosevelt speech, Schwinn is using it for the same reason the squad did, except they  came up with the insignia and Schwinn lifted it. Schwinn would also have to know people would make the connection. So not fair to say well Schwinn didn’t want it to be connected to the squad, he only wanted it to represent being a contender. Then Schwinn, make up your own logo that ONLY stands for being a contender and has no connection to war or that squadron.


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## PCHiggin

Thanks rennfaron,I think your 1st paragraph makes the most sense. It was a symbol of American  patriotism and muscle. They used other famous Americana on their badges,Liberty,Lincoln,Lasalle(Mississippi Valley),Cadillac(Detroit) etc. Motorcycles,airplanes,cars. Why not that insignia? That closes it out for me,Thanks again.


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## PCHiggin

delete


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## bikerbluz

Thanks Miq for getting me on the list. Good to know it is a 41. I hope to get started on the cleaning process soon. Always really enjoy that. Lately some shoulder, knee and back injuries have my projects piling up though. Appreciate all the valuable information that everyone has to offer. The historical aspect of our hobby is important to me.  My father was a WWII vet, serving in the South Pacific in the Navy. He was wounded in the Palau islands in 44. My mom still had ration stamps from the war. Bikes of that period always makes me think of them and all the sacrifices that generation did for our freedom. Anyway, sorry so windy, but I appreciate all of the knowledge.


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## BroCraig

I just purchased an Eddie Rickenbacker racer from 1963. It comes Monday. Looks great! 





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bikerbluz

Welcome to the Cabe BroCraig. Looks like a nice ride. The old Schwinn lightweights are very smooth riding.


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## BroCraig

Good to hear. I love riding. Problem is it appears God’s flooding the earth where I live. It’s rained and been cold here for the last two months. Ugh. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Miq

@HUFFMANBILL posted a few new pics of his 1942 New World.  We already had this on the list but the new pics are great.  This is the earliest one we've seen with blackout parts and has just one rear mudguard stay. 












HUFFMANBILL also posted some advertisements for these victory bikes.  Very cool!!


----------



## HUFFMANBILL

Hello Miq,
Yes this is a nice example, which I purchased from Jim Barnard a while back.  I just cleaned it up a bit and did a little touch-up paint work.  I have two other 1942 Schwinn New Worlds a men's VW1M and a women's VW1L War-Time models, Both original and unrestored.  I also have a Schwinn made Chicago Cycle Supply badged,,  LaSalle marked men's lightweight,  which is essentially  a New World ( I guess since it was made for Chicago Cycle Supply they could not mark it as a New World). All 3 of these wartime lightweights are black-out models.  If you would like, when I get a few pictures together with the information for your list I will post them for addition.

Regards,
Bill Strong


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## Miq

Hi Bill. We would love to see pics and learn more about the other war time bikes you have in your collection. Thanks!


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## 1motime

Miq said:


> @HUFFMANBILL posted a few new pics of his 1942 New World.  We already had this on the list but the new pics are great.  This is the earliest one we've seen with blackout parts and has just one rear mudguard stay.
> View attachment 1169802
> View attachment 1169803
> View attachment 1169805View attachment 1169806
> 
> HUFFMANBILL also posted some advertisements for these victory bikes.  Very cool!!
> View attachment 1169807
> View attachment 1169811View attachment 1169812
> 
> View attachment 1169813



Very nice early bike!  My 40 has two rear fender wire braces.  This 42 has only one.  Seems to be going backwards.  Trying to conserve steel?  Also interesting is the painted Superior style front fender.  Option?


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## bikewhorder

Here's a smokin' deal on one. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/583743522375288/


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## 1motime

bikewhorder said:


> Here's a smokin' deal on one. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/583743522375288/



You are not kidding!  Great deal!


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## Miq

That one from @bikewhorder is a post-war bike with separate seat clamp hardware and bar style mudguard stays.  Nice price for someone near MA to pick up!


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## bikewhorder

I've had this lady hanging in my barn for the last 8 years or so untouched. What can you tell me about it?


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## Miq

@bikewhorder I'd say pre-war 1940-41.  Crusty ladies with one piece crank and multi-speed rear hub.  Looks pretty original to me.  Not sure about the grips.  Thanks for adding it!  
Do you think the serial is G05608? 

@bikerbluz will like another G serial on the list.




Thanks bikewhorder!


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## Miq

@HARPO got a 1948 New World recently.


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## HARPO

Yup...needs quite a bit of work and some original parts...but a steal at $55 and only a 4 mile drive from my house! and it has Stainless Steel rims.


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## HARPO

bikewhorder said:


> Here's a smokin' deal on one. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/583743522375288/




@Miq I saw that the other day. But...it's 200 miles from me.


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## HUFFMANBILL

Miq said:


> Hi Bill. We would love to see pics and learn more about the other war time bikes you have in your collection. Thanks!




Hello Miq,

As promised here is the information and pictures that I put together yesterday on my 3 other WWII Schwinn made War-time ''Victory'' lightweight models.  I will list each one with the pertinent data needed to add to your chart and at the end will attach the photo's of each to include the BB serial number and showing EP slag line of each.  The slag line on the last BB photo shown cannot be seen well ( poor photo, my mistake) It does however run along the BB where the slight red mark can be seen above the serial no.  Here goes:

Schwinn New World lightweight
Men's Model VW1M - Mid. 1942, S/N I86960,  EF-BB, Wire brace ( 1 frt. 1rear), Several Blk- out parts ( ie; frt/rear hubs, brake arm,handlebar,head bering cups,seat tube, chain wheel and rear sprocket), Rear Drop out, Bike is finished in it's original black paint and still has the original Schwinn Whirlwind ''V'' (Victory) marked Sports Touring tires from WWII.  Bike has not been restored.

Schwinn New World lightweight
Ladies Model VW1L  -   Late 1944 - early 1945, S/N  K38166, EF-BB, Wire brace ( 1 frt. 1 rear), Several Blk-out parts ( same as on the men's VW1M above, except handlebars are not black), Rear Drop out, Bike is finished in it's original black paint and still has the original Schwinn Whirlwind '' War Tire'' marked Sports Touring tires from WWII.  Bike has not been restored.

Schwinn made Chicago Cycle Supply lightweight ''LaSalle'' badged
Men,s Model ( appears to be built just like a VW1M New World) - Mid. 1942, S/N I76127, EF-BB, Wire brace ( 1 frt. 1 rear), Several Blk-out parts ( same as on the men's VW1M above, except the pedals are also black), Rear Drop out,  Bike is finished in it's original black paint and I have restored it.  Bike has it's original Traverse City, Mich., 1943 non-metal ( pressed cardboard or wood ) painted license plate and license sticker.  This bike was in Traverse City from 1942 until I purchased it in 2007.

Attached pictures  Men's New World VW1M,  Ladies New World VW1L and last, but not least Men's ''LaSalle''.          Regards,  Bill Strong


----------



## HARPO

HUFFMANBILL said:


> Hello Miq,
> 
> As promised here is the information and pictures that I put together yesterday on my 3 other WWII Schwinn made War-time ''Victory'' lightweight models.  I will list each one with the pertinent data needed to add to your chart and at the end will attach the photo's of each to include the BB serial number and showing EP slag line of each.  The slag line on the last BB photo shown cannot be seen well ( poor photo, my mistake) It does however run along the BB where the slight red mark can be seen above the serial no.  Here goes:
> 
> Schwinn New World lightweight
> Men's Model VW1M - Mid. 1942, S/N I86960,  EF-BB, Wire brace ( 1 frt. 1rear), Several Blk- out parts ( ie; frt/rear hubs, brake arm,handlebar,head bering cups,seat tube, chain wheel and rear sprocket), Rear Drop out, Bike is finished in it's original black paint and still has the original Schwinn Whirlwind ''V'' (Victory) marked Sports Touring tires from WWII.  Bike has not been restored.
> 
> Schwinn New World lightweight
> Ladies Model VW1L  -   Late 1944 - early 1945, S/N  K38166, EF-BB, Wire brace ( 1 frt. 1 rear), Several Blk-out parts ( same as on the men's VW1M above, except handlebars are not black), Rear Drop out, Bike is finished in it's original black paint and still has the original Schwinn Whirlwind '' War Tire'' marked Sports Touring tires from WWII.  Bike has not been restored.
> 
> Schwinn made Chicago Cycle Supply lightweight ''LaSalle'' badged
> Men,s Model ( appears to be built just like a VW1M New World) - Mid. 1942, S/N I76127, EF-BB, Wire brace ( 1 frt. 1 rear), Several Blk-out parts ( same as on the men's VW1M above, except the pedals are also black), Rear Drop out,  Bike is finished in it's original black paint and I have restored it.  Bike has it's original Traverse City, Mich., 1943 non-metal ( pressed cardboard or wood ) painted license plate and license sticker.  This bike was in Traverse City from 1942 until I purchased it in 2007.
> 
> Attached pictures  Men's New World VW1M,  Ladies New World VW1L and last, but not least Men's ''LaSalle''.          Regards,  Bill StrongView attachment 1170441
> 
> View attachment 1170442
> 
> View attachment 1170444
> 
> View attachment 1170445
> 
> View attachment 1170446
> 
> View attachment 1170447
> 
> View attachment 1170448
> 
> View attachment 1170449
> 
> View attachment 1170450
> 
> View attachment 1170451
> 
> View attachment 1170455
> 
> View attachment 1170456




Nothing to say but...WOW!!!


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## Miq

@HUFFMANBILL Those bike are fantastic!  Thank you for providing the great pics and info for the chart!!  The blackout bell on the LaSalle badged bike is killer!  Great condition on all of them.  I love seeing these victory bikes.  Thanks again!!

You and @HARPO have helped bring more info on the war time and post war serial dating.  I'm sure the debate will continue...


----------



## HUFFMANBILL

Hey Harpo,

Saw your Columbia women's WWII lightweight ''Victory'' bike on the Schwinn lightweight forum very nice.  Since that was on a Schwinn forum I thought I would post these pictures here of my 1942 Columbia men's ''Victory'' lightweight to go with your women's version. Since this is a Schwinn post to a General old bike forum I hope that this is not a problem.  If so the Moderator can edit it out.

Regards,
Bill


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## Miq

Great stuff Bill.


----------



## HARPO

@HUFFMANBILL  Beautiful!!! Oh, and mine has wood pedals on it. Not sure if they're original from Columbia, but the bike came from the original owners family. They said nothing had been changed on the bike since new.


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## HARPO

@Miq  Thanks for including my bike on the Chart!


----------



## HUFFMANBILL

HARPO said:


> @HUFFMANBILL  Beautiful!!! Oh, and mine has wood pedals on it. Not sure if they're original from Columbia, but the bike came from the original owners family. They said nothing had been changed on the bike since new.



Yes, mine also has wood pedals.  Mine is S/N G55913 with a frame date code of J3 . So the frame was manufactured in March of 1942 and the bike was completed most likely between April-June of 1942.  What is the S/N and frame date code on your BB?  Frame date code should be the single letter and 1or2 numbers stamped above the S/N.

Regards,
Bill


----------



## HARPO

HUFFMANBILL said:


> Yes, mine also has wood pedals.  Mine is S/N G55913 with a frame date code of J3 . So the frame was manufactured in March of 1942 and the bike was completed most likely between April-June of 1942.  What is the S/N and frame date code on your BB?  Frame date code should be the single letter and 1or2 numbers stamped above the S/N.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill




Hi Bill!

I haven't had this bike in the light of day for years. Its been in my nice, dry, finished basement along with a few of my other "older" bikes that don't really get ridden. I have photos from many years ago when I first bought it, so I'll need to call them up or just take new ones.

At any rate, I just went and took a photos of the bottom bracket and here's the info. Please let me know when it was made! I always assumed around 1942. Lets see if I'm right!!


----------



## HARPO

@HUFFMANBILL  I just posted this on the Columbia. Enjoy the photos!!









						Wartime Columbia Sports Tourist...100% Original | Vintage Lightweight Bicycles
					

I bought this bike almost 10 years ago from a friend that got it from the original owners family. They said nothing was changed since the bike was new, and I tend to believe it.  I was in contact with @HUFFMANBILL  yesterday who asked me what the serial number was. Lol...I never had a photo of...




					thecabe.com


----------



## HUFFMANBILL

Hello Miq and others,

This is some more information that I have relocated in my records.  It may be of some interest to those that collect WWII Schwinn '' Victory'' lightweight bicycles and are wondering about their wartime production.  

According to Amendment 2 of the War Production Boards ( WPB ) Limitation Order L-52 regarding wartime bicycle production, dated Sept., 2, 1942 only Huffman and Columbia could with limitations continue to produce and distribute bicycles for the duration.  However,  upon special appeal other bicycle manufacturers may be authorized under specific limitations to sell remaining stocks of already produced bikes and produce limited quantities of new bicycles for limited periods of time.

In a copy of a declassified document from my records, dated 1946 National Archives, I found the following regarding Schwinn bicycles.  Schwinn produced 13,000 bicycles in late 1942, 10,000 cycle trucks in 1943 and 10,000 cycle trucks in 1944.  In addition they were able to distribute remaining stock on hand as of Sept., 1, 1942.   Apparently, Schwinn submitted a special appeal to continue bike sales, which evidently was granted for at least 1 order of 13,000 new bikes in late 1942, production of which may have stretched into 1943.  As of this time I have found no further documentation that further orders were granted.

As of Sept., 23, 1944 the Office of Price Administration ( OPA ) announced an industry wide restoration of bicycle production with some limitations.  So as of this date all bicycle manufacturers could, with some limitations, restart new bicycle production.

I trust that this information will be helpful to those interested in wartime civilian bicycles.

Regards,
Bill Strong


----------



## Oilit

HUFFMANBILL said:


> Hello Miq and others,
> 
> This is some more information that I have relocated in my records.  It may be of some interest to those that collect WWII Schwinn '' Victory'' lightweight bicycles and are wondering about their wartime production.
> 
> According to Amendment 2 of the War Production Boards ( WPB ) Limitation Order L-52 regarding wartime bicycle production, dated Sept., 2, 1942 only Huffman and Columbia could with limitations continue to produce and distribute bicycles for the duration.  However,  upon special appeal other bicycle manufacturers may be authorized under specific limitations to sell remaining stocks of already produced bikes and produce limited quantities of new bicycles for limited periods of time.
> 
> In a copy of a declassified document from my records, dated 1946 National Archives, I found the following regarding Schwinn bicycles.  Schwinn produced 13,000 bicycles in late 1942, 10,000 cycle trucks in 1943 and 10,000 cycle trucks in 1944.  In addition they were able to distribute remaining stock on hand as of Sept., 1, 1942.   Apparently, Schwinn submitted a special appeal to continue bike sales, which evidently was granted for at least 1 order of 13,000 new bikes in late 1942, production of which may have stretched into 1943.  As of this time I have found no further documentation that further orders were granted.
> 
> As of Sept., 23, 1944 the Office of Price Administration ( OPA ) announced an industry wide restoration of bicycle production with some limitations.  So as of this date all bicycle manufacturers could, with some limitations, restart new bicycle production.
> 
> I trust that this information will be helpful to those interested in wartime civilian bicycles.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill Strong



Thank you, sir! I can only guess how much time you have in researching this, and I can only appreciate your willingness to share!


----------



## GTs58

*And the production numbers were published...................



*


----------



## HUFFMANBILL

GTs58 said:


> *And the production numbers were published...................
> 
> View attachment 1173157*



I cannot tell for certain by your post, but I assume that the numbers for each year are for Schwinn bicycles.  If that is correct then the figures are well with-in line with those that I posted.  1942, 112,859  Most of this number would have been produced between January 1, 1942 and August 31, 1942 ( my previous post was covering those bikes made after Sept., 1, 1942 ). The remainder for that year would have been from bikes in stock as of Sept., 1, 1942 and those of the 13,000 allowed by special appeal that were completed by the end of 1942.  1943, 16,385 Most of these would have been from the remaining bikes produced in 1943 from the late 1942 allowance of 13,000 plus the 10,000 cycle trucks that were authorized in 1943.  1944, 18,929 Most of these would have been cycle trucks 10,000 of which were authorized in 1944.  The remainder were likely new bikes produced after the OPA lifted the restrictions on civilian bicycle production on Sept., 23, 1944.  Also, like I stated in my previous post on this subject, I have found no other evidence at this time that Schwinn was granted authority to produce more bikes.  That is not to say that they were not, I just have not come across the evidence.  But, like I stated the figures you show for 1942 - 1944 appear to fit in well with my findings for that time frame especially after Sept., 1, 1942.

Regards,
Bill


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## GTs58

Yes @HUFFMANBILL , those are Schwinn numbers. You can see the complete page on Tom Findley's scans 1893 - 1940.


----------



## Miq

It’s the J and K serial New World bikes that are fascinating.. 

1943  Total Production 16,300 - 10,000 Cycle Trucks = 6,300 Victory New Worlds

1944  Total Production 18,900 - 10,000 Cycle Trucks = 8,900 Victory New Worlds






Rare gems with non-equipped chain guards, blackout parts, war tires, no stands, etc...


----------



## mr.cycleplane

1941(?) New World-Chicago Cycle Supply-Lincoln head badge-serial H20629. In the wings back burner project!


----------



## Miq

That's going to be a great bike @mr.cycleplane !  The Mesinger World saddle is really nice and the Superior wheels could be sweet.  It's also the earliest H serial we have seen so far.  Thank you for adding it.


----------



## JO BO

Nice bikes


----------



## GTs58

JO BO said:


> Found out I have one......by info I found here on the Cabe.  Dates Oct 1943...serial has W for Westfield No badge or holes for one as they never had them in 43....no chain guard....no stand.  Stripped down for war effort....
> 
> View attachment 1186701
> 
> View attachment 1186702
> 
> View attachment 1186703
> 
> View attachment 1186704




That is not a Schwinn New World that's being discussed here. Whole different animal.


----------



## JO BO

Oh oh I have much to learn


----------



## locomotion

Miq said:


> Last task before bed...set this New World rear fork vs dropouts straight for good.
> 
> I began the last post with some "new" information from Schwinn in 1946 that the New World frames had been using dropouts since 1938.  That is nonsense and the catalogs from those years show it.
> 
> 1938 Catalog does not have an image of the New World.  Maybe they were introduced after the images were made for the 38 catalog??  The lightweight "Racer" that year had REAR FORKS:
> View attachment 1029217
> 
> In 1939 The catalog shows the New World Lightweight Tourist with REAR FORKS:
> View attachment 1029218
> 
> In 1940 the catalog shows the New World Tourist with REAR DROPOUTS!
> View attachment 1029219
> Here's the New World Racer from 1940 with DROPOUTS too:
> View attachment 1029220
> The dividing line for dropouts on the New World frames is 1939/1940.  If it has rear forks it is 1939 or older.  If it has rear dropouts is it 1940 or younger.  That means Bikepaulie's rear forked NW is a 1939 and the youngest Vincev's rear dropout hand stamped bike could be is 1940.
> 
> Here's a really sweet 1939 New World Racer Serial B38915 that GTs58 turn me on to.  It's got rear forks of course.
> View attachment 1029221
> View attachment 1029222
> View attachment 1029223
> View attachment 1029224
> View attachment 1029225
> 
> Fixed the chart and added the cool white 1939 NW Racer.  Oldest bad boy on the list.
> View attachment 1029226



only Schwinn in my collection is one of those Schwinn NEW World Racer.
Had never seen another one before
mine is blue, with the chainring from the catalogue picture.


----------



## Miq

@locomotion I'd love to see more pics of the bike and get the serial info from you!






we want to see more than just these...


----------



## locomotion

Miq said:


> @locomotion I'd love to see more pics of the bike and get the serial info from you!
> View attachment 1186881
> View attachment 1186891
> we want to see more than just these...



where did you find those pics?

I will dig out the bike and snap some pics.


----------



## Miq

Need tricks to clean up my new 1940 Schwinn racer. | Project Rides
					

need tricks cleaning my new 1940 Schwinn New World racer model W3R bike Wondering how to properly clean the paint, without damaging the pins and original decals (they are unprotected on top of the original paint) please share your tricks and past experiences - pre and post pictures would be...




					thecabe.com


----------



## Miq

A years worth of collecting Prewar and War Time New Worlds!  We have 65 entries now and know a lot more about these bike than when we started.  Thanks everyone!








They're still cool.


----------



## 1motime

Miq said:


> A years worth of collecting Prewar and War Time New Worlds!  We have 65 entries now and know a lot more about these bike than when we started.  Thanks everyone!
> View attachment 1188320
> View attachment 1188325
> 
> They're still cool.



Thanks for your effort!


----------



## Oilit

So the bikes with 3 piece cranks shared the same serial numbers pre-war? That makes sense if all the frames were brazed up. Maybe once they started electroforging frames, the bikes with 3 piece cranks went to a separate production line and started using separate serial numbers. Although there doesn't seem to be many.


----------



## Miq

Hi @Oilit it seems like the prewar and wartime 3 piece crank bikes were built on a different line.  The bottom brackets are different and the serial numbering was hand stamped but follows the numerical progression of the entire New World series.


----------



## Oilit

Miq said:


> Hi @Oilit it seems like the prewar and wartime 3 piece crank bikes were built on a different line.  The bottom brackets are different and the serial numbering was hand stamped but follows the numerical progression of the entire New World series.



With the hand-stamped serials, I think you're right that the brackets themselves were produced on a different line but since the pre-war frames were brazed, I'm guessing they could produce the brackets separately and swap them in as needed. Once they started going to electroforged frames, that process was different enough that the electroforged frames and the brazed frames became two different lines. It's all guesswork, but it doesn't look like any electroforged frames had the 3 piece cranks. @SirMike1983 has one listed, but he said he installed that one himself, so I'm not sure what set-up he used.
In any case, thanks for keeping up this thread. It gives me food for thought!


----------



## Oilit

So when I went back and looked, @SirMike1983 may have been referring to the rear wheel, and I got confused (Post #7 in this thread). Have you got a link to a picture of this bike? Looking at this thread:








						Quality Bikes - Schwinn 3-Speeds | Lightweight Schwinn Bicycles
					

A little talk about Schwinn offering quality lightweight bikes at all price levels in their line-up from 1938-1952, with a particular look at a couple of 1940s-era bikes.  https://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/2017/06/quality-american-made-three-speeds.html     "When you're buying a bicycle, buy the...




					thecabe.com
				



- SirMike says the black New World is 1947, but it has a one piece crank.


----------



## GTs58

Oilit said:


> With the hand-stamped serials, I think you're right that the brackets themselves were produced on a different line but since the pre-war frames were brazed, I'm guessing they could produce the brackets separately and swap them in as needed. Once they started going to electroforged frames, that process was different enough that the electroforged frames and the brazed frames became two different lines. It's all guesswork, but it doesn't look like any electroforged frames had the 3 piece cranks. @SirMike1983 has one listed, but he said he installed that one himself, so I'm not sure what set-up he used.
> In any case, thanks for keeping up this thread. It gives me food for thought!




I *should* have made notes and kept all the EF details I've noted here in a file. Starting with the war time J series New Worlds you'll see the evolution of Schwinn's EF frames that included a full on EF head tube, top and down tube to the head, seat post to the BB shell, one piece crank BB shell and I believe the down tube to the BB shell. The three piece crank bikes only had the seat post EF to the BB, but all the other EF was the same as the one piece crank. The chain stays were all hand welded on both types and that practice continued in all the Post War New Worlds. I haven't seen any detailed pictures of a war time Cycle Truck BB shell but I say the whole bottom bracket and tubes were all EF as all the post war balloon models. Oh, and the 40 New Worlds were the first to have rear drop outs, and they were electro-forged to the stays.


----------



## Miq

Arfsaidthebee's J serial EF Head Tube quotes:



GTs58 said:


> It's a little hard to tell from the pics and being black, but it looks like Arf's J serial #'d beauty has the full blown EF head tube. The SN stamping is a lower number  than Capt Nemo's too. Here's what a full on EF Schwinn head tube looks like for those that are not aware. It's made from two pieces of flat steel and the nubs for the top and bottom tube joints are punched out so when finished the tube joints look fillet brazed.
> 
> View attachment 999783
> 
> Note how the head tube is stamped out for the top tube EF to the head tube.
> 
> View attachment 999784


----------



## Miq

GTs58 said:


> Not sure how far out the nubs were when they first started this process. I'll guess the down tube joint starts very close to the head tube at the bottom were the taper ends and the top is further out so a square cut tube will meet the nub.
> Note in that picture above that some work had to be done to fit the top bearing cup.
> 
> Here's some drawings, but I have no idea what era they are from, possibly later than war time since there are drawings of the later BB.
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 999806
> 
> View attachment 999814


----------



## Miq

Orig CaptNemo J serial post with good view of the EF on the BB.



Capt Nemo said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Getting back into vintage bikes and I would appreciate some help i.d.'ing a frame and fork I recently purchased.
> 
> It looks to be Schwinn fab’d but the frameset has the following _combination of features_ I am not familiar with:
> 
> 
> Drop-out style ends without fender eyelets (1940-45?).
> Steel filler rod welds throughout (not fillet brazed).
> Electro-Forged or Flash-Welded seamed bottom bracket shell and head tube.
> Seat tube is only tube EF'd to bottom bracket shell. Balance of tubes are fillet welded.
> Top tube and down tube EF'd to head tube.
> Metallic Blue painted frame and fork with no evidence of prior paint or decals. Could have been sandblasted clean and repainted from the looks of it.
> Previous owner claims he bought it for the set of 1942 dated _black_ AS&Co dogleg cranks it had on it.
> Serial number on BB shell is *JO9514*
> See pics below and any clues to what I have would be appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 80783View attachment 80785View attachment 80786View attachment 80787View attachment 80789View attachment 80788


----------



## Miq

Siestabikes I serial New World with EF seat tube to BB but down tube and chain stays are not.



Siestabikes said:


> I spent the late morning and afternoon dis-assembling, cleaning, lubing, adjusting, and re-assembling. The handle bar looks like it was painted. Did the bar come chromed or was the paint a possible a war time feature
> 
> View attachment 345284
> 
> View attachment 345285
> 
> View attachment 345286
> 
> View attachment 345288
> 
> View attachment 345289
> 
> View attachment 345290


----------



## Miq

Crazyhawk's I serial NOT EF New World:



crazyhawk said:


> Very informative thread guys!  I took a few shots of my New World.  I haven't yet had time to spend on it.  It's really dirty and in the condition I found it.  Sorry for the crappy pics but it is raining hard outside so I had to keep it in the basement.  The thing I just found that looks cool is the Goodyear tires with "war tire" stamped on them.  It may be common, but I never saw that before.  Not sure of the year.View attachment 989125
> 
> View attachment 989126
> 
> View attachment 989127
> 
> View attachment 989128
> 
> View attachment 989129


----------



## Miq

SirMike's 1947 C Serial New World with "hybrid" EF BB



SirMike1983 said:


> My men's New World is
> 
> C81661
> 
> View attachment 619119
> 
> I forget what the ladies New World I have is. My guess is 1947-ish from the features on it. The ladies is, I think an A or a B series, if I remember correctly and they came as a pair to me. They had matching features and came from the same source, so my guess is both are 1947 or so, maybe earlier in '48.
> 
> Another user here, Sailorbenjamin, owned a 1948 New World, which he dated to September 1948, with serial  E20071.
> 
> When did Schwinn begin electroforging? I know some of the lower end lightweights eventually converted to electro forged. Could they have swapped serial systems when the factory changed production methods? They did still have to fillet hand braze some of the joints of the electro forged bikes. I've seen New World bikes with fillet brazing on the seat tube joints, but electro forged joints elsewhere. Perhaps the integration of some of the previously totally hand built lightweights to mixed methods called for all bikes to go to a standardized system.
> 
> From the look of it, the New Worlds I have are both hybrid construction. The down tube-bb joint there looks fillet brazed, but the tapered joints of the bb-chain stays look like an electro forged type joint.
> 
> View attachment 619120


----------



## GTs58

Thanks @Miq !

The lightweights in the 50's still only had the BB shell and seat post EF, stays and down tubes were welded to the BB.









						51 New World | Lightweight Schwinn Bicycles
					

New project, thinking I might build this as a fenderless since i already have a 53 same color with fenders. Too bad someone sprayed it teal or light green years ago, but another former owner removed most of it. There still is some original dark red left. Also going to replace the 16t rear...




					thecabe.com


----------



## Oilit

Thanks @GTs58 and @Miq! Putting this all in one place makes it easier to follow!


----------



## mr.cycleplane

Got this 'New World' up on two wheels today-still needs cleaning but was able to take for ride. serial H20626 and sold thru Chicago Cycle Supply-badged as a Lincoln.


----------



## 1motime

mr.cycleplane said:


> Got this 'New World' up on two wheels today-still needs cleaning but was able to take for ride. serial H20626 and sold thru Chicago Cycle Supply-badged as a Lincoln. View attachment 1195393
> 
> View attachment 1195394
> 
> View attachment 1195395
> 
> View attachment 1195396
> 
> View attachment 1195397
> 
> View attachment 1195398
> 
> View attachment 1195399
> 
> View attachment 1195400
> 
> View attachment 1195401
> 
> View attachment 1195402



Very nice bike   Is it me or is this a large (23") frame?  When were the 23s first offered?


----------



## mr.cycleplane

I'll check it out-never thought about that before! just did it and i'm gonna call it at 21 1/2" center of bb to top of frame(clamp).


----------



## 1motime

mr.cycleplane said:


> I'll check it out-never thought about that before! just did it and i'm gonna call it at 21 1/2" center of bb to top of frame(clamp).



OK  I guess my eyes are not focusing.  Came in 19-21 and 23 sizes  Still wonder when the 23" lightweight frame came out,     You have a nice bike!


----------



## mr.cycleplane

@Miq


----------



## mr.cycleplane

1941 H20629 cleaned up.


----------



## Miq

@mr.cycleplane It still shines up nice!  That is a perfect set of original equipment for a 41.    I updated the chart to reflect your progress.  Thanks for the update!


----------



## Miq

@rollfaster got a few pics of a friends 48-49 New World.  I thought I 'd add it to the chart.













Thanks @rollfaster !!


----------



## Cjric

Ok. New here and new to vintage bikes so bear with me. I just bought a Kalamazoo Supercycle. From what I’m finding out it’s a rebadged Schwinn. The hand written history that came from the original owner says it was bought in 1942, making it a Victory bike. I believe there is the remnant of a Schwinn logo on it. Everything else lines up. It’s pretty original with replaced tires and seat. It was maintained and ridden regularly up into the 90s. Serial# I 32984. Trying to learn all I can about it!


----------



## Cjric

Cjric said:


> Ok. New here and new to vintage bikes so bear with me. I just bought a Kalamazoo Supercycle. From what I’m finding out it’s a rebadged Schwinn. The hand written history that came from the original owner says it was bought in 1942, making it a Victory bike. I believe there is the remnant of a Schwinn logo on it. Everything else lines up. It’s pretty original with replaced tires and seat. It was maintained and ridden regularly up into the 90s. Serial# I 32984. Trying to learn all I can about it!
> 
> View attachment 1210881
> 
> View attachment 1210882
> 
> View attachment 1210883


----------



## Cjric

Here’s a few more pictures. New Departure 2 speed hub and shifter. Schwinn front brake with fabric wrapped cable housing.  It’s in good rideable condition. The hub shifts fine and the brake works well.


----------



## Miq

Super cool!  The shift lever looks blacked out. I’ll add it to the chart in a bit.  Do you have any other higher resolution pics of the whole bike?  First Kalamazoo we’ve seen.  It looks like it has the Hat in Ring decal.


----------



## GTs58

Miq said:


> Super cool!  The shift lever looks blacked out. I’ll add it to the chart in a bit.  Do you have any other higher resolution pics of the whole bike?  First Kalamazoo we’ve seen.  It looks like it has the Hat in Ring decal.




I also though the lever looked blacked out...........at first. But after a close look I can see that it is plated with some loss around the knob. Has the EF BB shell and blacked out fender braces though!


----------



## Miq

Saw the EF BB but hadn’t noticed the braces. Nice!


----------



## piercer_99

Miq said:


> Super cool!  The shift lever looks blacked out. I’ll add it to the chart in a bit.  Do you have any other higher resolution pics of the whole bike?  First Kalamazoo we’ve seen.  It looks like it has the Hat in Ring decal.



I took the liberty to enlarge some of these a bit, without getting to much distortion.


----------



## Miq

Thanks @piercer_99 !


----------



## Cjric

Wow!  You guys are quick!  Thanks for flipping them too. I posted the pics at a low res not knowing how a high res would affect the site. The hat in ring logo?  Is that the res white and blue on the seat tube?  If so, yes. I also just noticed faded pinstriping. The rims look like they once had brown or tan paint on them. The spokes and nipples are painted as well. There used to be a matching men’s bike but it was destroyed in an accident that “left the rider with amnesia.”  The pair Of bikes were originally bought by the president of the Upjohn Pharmacutical Co here in Kalamazoo.


----------



## piercer_99

@Miq
this one just showed up on the old bikes club (Denver) facebook group last night.

1938 New World, supposed to be all original but the hand grips and brake pads, no photo of the serial number.

Spent it's life in Kansas City, second half in a basement.

Perhaps the owner will show up with it someday.

enjoy.


----------



## GTs58

Cjric said:


> Wow!  You guys are quick!  Thanks for flipping them too. I posted the pics at a low res not knowing how a high res would affect the site. The hat in ring logo?  Is that the res white and blue on the seat tube?  If so, yes. I also just noticed faded pinstriping. *The rims look like they once had brown or tan paint on them. The spokes and nipples are painted as well.* There used to be a matching men’s bike but it was destroyed in an accident that “left the rider with amnesia.”  The pair Of bikes were originally bought by the president of the Upjohn Pharmacutical Co here in Kalamazoo.




Could that just be Patina? As in a nice light layer of rust stains?


----------



## GTs58

piercer_99 said:


> @Miq
> this one just showed up on the old bikes club (Denver) facebook group last night.
> 
> 1938 New World, supposed to be all original but the hand grips and brake pads, no photo of the serial number.
> 
> Spent it's life in Kansas City, second half in a basement.
> 
> Perhaps the owner will show up with it someday.
> 
> enjoy.
> 
> View attachment 1210917
> 
> View attachment 1210919
> 
> View attachment 1210920
> 
> View attachment 1210921
> 
> View attachment 1210922
> 
> View attachment 1210923
> 
> View attachment 1210924
> 
> View attachment 1210925




A serial number would be nice since this has the drop outs that hit the scene on the 40 models. That rubber seat could probably use a little tire foam to liven it up a bit.


----------



## Cjric

Educate me a little bit here. EF BB?  I assume BB is bottom bracket but I’m drawing a blank with the EF.

Also, is it possible to acquire a period saddle?  How about original or repop Tire’s?  I plan on riding it occasionally so functional tires would be nice over brittle originals.Does someone make reproductions of the originals or something close?

here’s a couple pics at higher resolution:


----------



## Miq

@Cjric Great pics of the badge and bike, thanks!  Yes the Hat in the Ring decal is the one on the seat tube.  

EF is electro-forged (machine welded).  The place where this is the most obvious is the straight weld line across the bottom bracket (like at the top of this pic).  



Your bike is one of the very first to be made this way, it's right on the dividing line, and fits perfectly in the chart, supporting when we think this change took place.



Tires for these bikes are available new from Kenda (K-23).  Period correct saddles exist.  Anything is available if you can spend enough or look hard enough...

This is a cool victory bike and will be a great rider when you get it cleaned up.

@piercer_99 That black bike is great too!  The rear sprocket is tiny.  I bet it flys.  Cool bike lock and reflector.  Like @GTs58 noted, the rear dropouts started in 40 so that's the oldest it could be.  I hope the owner stops by here someday with more info.


----------



## Cjric

I’m not new to bikes, (have a few 90s-modern and ride a few thousand miles a year) but this my first really old one. I’m confident in cleaning up and getting the drivetrain in good working order but what about the finish?  Should I just clean it up a bit and leave the patina or polish and restore it to original finish?  What will help it retain its value the best?  What is the most desired look for collectors?  Regardless of restoration level, this will definitely be ridden. It may also be loaned short term to the local museum.


----------



## Miq

It’s your bike so you should do what you want. I like original paint regardless of the condition but that’s just me. Taking the time or spending the money on paint restoration for a bike like this doesn’t make sense IMHO.  These 40s lightweight bikes are not especially collectable or valuable today.  They are great riding bikes however and are undervalued.  They are a more affordable way into vintage bicycling.than many of the other bikes you will see here.


----------



## Cjric

Here she is after a little elbow grease. Only way to get the fenders to shine is with an oily plastic dressing of sorts (son is a car detailed).  Paint itself is really oxidized. Everything else cleaned up reasonably well with polishing compound and paste wax. Shiny parts And the head badge got hit with never-dull.


----------



## Miq

She's a beaut.  Nice work!  Thank you for taking the spoke reflectors off.    

Before




After


----------



## Barnegatbicycles




----------



## GTs58

Barnegatbicycles said:


> View attachment 1218837
> 
> View attachment 1218827
> 
> View attachment 1218835
> 
> View attachment 1218804
> 
> View attachment 1218808
> 
> View attachment 1218819
> 
> View attachment 1218829
> 
> View attachment 1218832




Hmmm, I'm not 100% sure, but it sure looks like the top and down tubes are EF to the head tube. Can you tell if they are or not? Definitely looks EF in that one shot. It will be obvious to see looking inside the head tube when the fork is pulled.


----------



## Miq

Black 1942 Wartime New World with blackout Big Arm = Brake New Departure hub, skip tooth chain, no fenders or chain guard.  Another victory bike!!!  

It's hard to tell from the pics, are there more blackout parts on the bike than just the rear hub?  Handlebars?  

Thank you for posting it @Barnegatbicycles !


----------



## Barnegatbicycles

Miq said:


> Black 1942 Wartime New World with blackout Big Arm = Brake New Departure hub, skip tooth chain, no fenders or chain guard.  Another victory bike!!!
> 
> It's hard to tell from the pics, are there more blackout parts on the bike than just the rear hub?  Handlebars?
> 
> Thank you for posting it @Barnegatbicycles !



Yeah the sprocket, pedals and even the hardware for the cranks are all black.


----------



## Miq

@Barnegatbicycles Thanks!


----------



## JPKelley5

Hello all. New here and linking over to my first project(s) thread (don't be fooled by the title). It looks like I stumbled on another wartime New World yesterday. Interested in everyone's thoughts:









						First Restoration - 1937 (?) Western Flyer | Project Rides
					

Mmw  Do NOT repaint this bike!  Don’t think I will! I spent some time this evening with some OOOO steel wool. The paint is largely in decent shape but for a few of the top surfaces. I like the patina. Any suggestions on containing the rust once it’s removed?




					thecabe.com


----------



## Miq

Hi @JPKelley5 that's a nice looking wartime "step through" New World.  Thank you for taking the pics of the SN.  What is the paint color, it's hard to tell from the pics?  Dark Blue??
I'm loving the number of these victory bikes that keep popping up!  This bike will be a great rider when you clean it up.  Kenda K-23 tires should fit those rims.  Be careful with those wire mudguard stays.  When you remove them from the axle, they like to break right at the attachment point for the mudguard.



















Thanks for sharing it!


----------



## JPKelley5

Miq said:


> Hi @JPKelley5 that's a nice looking wartime "step through" New World.  Thank you for taking the pics of the SN.  What is the paint color, it's hard to tell from the pics?  Dark Blue??
> I'm loving the number of these victory bikes that keep popping up!  This bike will be a great rider when you clean it up.  Kenda K-23 tires should fit those rims.  Be careful with those wire mudguard stays.  When you remove them from the axle, they like to break right at the attachment point for the mudguard.
> View attachment 1219933View attachment 1219934View attachment 1219936View attachment 1219938View attachment 1219937View attachment 1219939View attachment 1219941
> 
> View attachment 1219953
> Thanks for sharing it!




Dark blue. Looking forward to uncovering it. Thanks for the tips on the tires and mud guards.


----------



## Miq

Thanks!  I updated the chart with the color.  Please send more pics when you get it cleaned up.  I can't wait to see it.


----------



## Miq

Adding  EF BB pic and info to chart.


----------



## Miq

@Gavin posted some pics of a late 1949 New World with odd bell stamps on the BB.  Good stuff!  This is the youngest New World we've seen yet, and one of the last ones made in late 1949.


















Thanks @Gavin !


----------



## Miq

@ace has been posting pics of a wartime New World parts bike here.  I thought I'd add it to the list before it disappears.  It's got some interesting British brakes that I haven't seen before that don't look stock, but i'm hoping some other CABErs might know more about them.  Sturmy multi-speed hub. Looks like parts of the head set are blackout.  No chain guard or kickstand would be normal for this victory bike.
















Thanks @ace !!


----------



## JPKelley5

Hello  all - With great frustration I've been attempting to relace my S6 wheels. I've searched CABE for tips, but I'm hoping someone has a link to a tutorial here that I haven't found or perhaps an outside source. After attempting to salvage the OG spokes (3-4 spokes and a few nipples didn't make it) I've purchased new ones and confirmed they are the same length. I have pics of the original lacing (appears to cross over 4x...although I also tried 3x just for fun) and I'm still ending up with a result that just ain't right. Help me before I taco one of the wheels over my knee


----------



## Oilit

JPKelley5 said:


> Hello  all - With great frustration I've been attempting to relace my S6 wheels. I've searched CABE for tips, but I'm hoping someone has a link to a tutorial here that I haven't found or perhaps an outside source. After attempting to salvage the OG spokes (3-4 spokes and a few nipples didn't make it) I've purchased new ones and confirmed they are the same length. I have pics of the original lacing (appears to cross over 4x...although I also tried 3x just for fun) and I'm still ending up with a result that just ain't right. Help me before I taco one of the wheels over my knee



There's a bunch of videos on Youtube that might help. I saw a video of a girl on the production line at one of the factories lacing up wheels, and I could only shake my head. After you do it a few thousand times, it evidently gets easy. It's just the first couple hundred that are hard.


----------



## JPKelley5

Oilit said:


> There's a bunch of videos on Youtube that might help. I saw a video of a girl on the production line at one of the factories lacing up wheels, and I could only shake my head. After you do it a few thousand times, it evidently gets easy. It's just the first couple hundred that are hard.



If I attempt to relace the same wheel 20 times does that count toward my first couple hundred?


----------



## JPKelley5

JPKelley5 said:


> If I attempt to relace the same wheel 20 times does that count toward my first couple hundred?




This guy is really good - a couple of early takeaways:

- The key spokes are...well, key.
- Funny quote - "I can't imagine you'll be lacing an old rim with spoke holes drilled at 90%". He's assuming I'm sane.
- Looking at the wheels from my '41 Western Flyer that just came back from the shop, it looks like they did a 3 cross (at a cost that is 4x what I paid for the bike, which is why I'm DIY on wheels from here on out...and doing everything I can do salvage old spokes. $60 per wheel for spokes plus $100 labor). That is also what is demonstrated in the video you shared. I've been operating under the assumption that the S6s are four crossers. Any insight? That's a critical variable.


----------



## Oilit

JPKelley5 said:


> This guy is really good - a couple of early takeaways:
> 
> - The key spokes are...well, key.
> - Funny quote - "I can't imagine you'll be lacing an old rim with spoke holes drilled at 90%". He's assuming I'm sane.
> - Looking at the wheels from my '41 Western Flyer that just came back from the shop, it looks like they did a 3 cross (at a cost that is 4x what I paid for the bike, which is why I'm DIY on wheels from here on out...and doing everything I can do salvage old spokes. $60 per wheel for spokes plus $100 labor). That is also what is demonstrated in the video you shared. I've been operating under the assumption that the S6s are four crossers. Any insight? That's a critical variable.



I just checked a 1960 Corvette and it's 3 cross, but it seems I've heard that some of the earlier bikes were 4 cross. I don't have one handy to check.


----------



## JPKelley5

Looks like 4 cross? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Oilit

JPKelley5 said:


> Looks like 4 cross? View attachment 1229042
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think that's 4 cross. Looking at the lower left, it looks like it's crossing 4 spokes on the same side. This is from the Corvette (sorry about the cluttered background). It's easier to see on the spokes on the back side:


----------



## 3-speeder

JPKelley5 said:


> Hello  all - With great frustration I've been attempting to relace my S6 wheels. I've searched CABE for tips, but I'm hoping someone has a link to a tutorial here that I haven't found or perhaps an outside source. After attempting to salvage the OG spokes (3-4 spokes and a few nipples didn't make it) I've purchased new ones and confirmed they are the same length. I have pics of the original lacing (appears to cross over 4x...although I also tried 3x just for fun) and I'm still ending up with a result that just ain't right. Help me before I taco one of the wheels over my knee



I like Sheldon Brown's site for lacing instructions. It helped me out and I still use it for reference when I'm lacing up wheels. I believe yours should be 4 cross





						Wheelbuilding
					

A tutorial on how to choose parts for, build and true a spoked bicycle wheel



					www.sheldonbrown.com


----------



## Miq

@JPKelley5 I haven’t laced a whole wheel but have replaced a few spokes in the last year.  This post from the thread on my bike has some info.  I have a 36 hole New Departure coaster and the spokes are arranged as 3 cross 4-cross on my S-6 rims.  I hope that helps.


----------



## GTs58

JPKelley5 said:


> Looks like 4 cross? View attachment 1229042
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I'm betting everything during that time was 4 cross. They were still doing 4 cross in 1955 on the middleweights and some lightweights bikes into 62 or later. If your wheels were 4 cross and you're using the same old spokes you need to do 4 cross or the spokes will be too long.
I've also had some Schwinns where the front wheel was 3 cross and the back 4 cross.


----------



## JPKelley5

Confirmed are 4 cross and I’m 90% there. Thanks to all for the help. I basically used an average of what I saw in all the videos links. They’ll probably burst into flames overnight. 




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----------



## Miq

Ok @GTs58 helped me figure out where I was going wrong on my cross counting.  My S-6 rims and 36 hole ND hub are 4 cross too.  I wasn't counting the very first cross right at the hub.


----------



## JPKelley5

Miq said:


> Ok @GTs58 helped me figure out where I was going wrong on my cross counting. My S-6 rims and 36 hole ND hub are 4 cross too. I wasn't counting the very first cross right at the hub.




Yeah, that first one is easy to miss. You can lace them up with a 3 cross and end up with a lot of extra spoke. I did. Several times. 4 cross and you have an agonizingly small but sufficient about of spoke after you micro adjust each spoke 50 times. 


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## Miq

You will love riding this bike even more with all the effort it takes getting it rolling.


----------



## JPKelley5

Miq said:


> You will love riding this bike even more with all the effort it takes getting it rolling.




I’m one more wheel away from a test ride and then I’m moving on to one or two others that are on deck. Leaned a whole lot from the New World. Mission accomplished. 


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## Miq

JPKelley5 said:


> I’m one more wheel away from a test ride and then I’m moving on to one or two others that are on deck. Leaned a whole lot from the New World. Mission accomplished.




I am looking forward to seeing another Victory New World back on the streets.  Seriously cool bike.


----------



## JPKelley5

Sorry to switch topics (twice) in this thread, but this has been a helpful group I'm looking at what I believe is a 1958 Ross Super Deluxe as my next project. Seems like an interesting, but not terribly uncommon bike that should be valued the same as most American middleweights from that era (e.g. not a whole lot). Fair condition. Missing a chain guard, grip, possibly a rack. Needs tires. Am I missing anything? Seller scoffed at my first offer (well under $100). I also posted this over on the Middleweight forum. Can't find a ton of info in searching around. Thanks for your continued patience as I navigate this cool little niche of the collector world.

View attachment 1229478


----------



## Miq

New World Owners,

@mr.cycleplane is selling a VERY nice original New World English saddle here:

1939 OG New World Saddle

This is a rare saddle for sure.  We've hardly ever seen any survivors of this style, especially this nice!  Check it out.


----------



## Miq

@Arfsaidthebee sent some pics of the progress he's made on his 41 New World (H53984).  It now has the correct mudguards with wire braces and a Schwinn English saddle.  

















Thanks Arf!


----------



## Miq

@markivpedalpusher recently took ownership of the gorgeous 1941 black Chicago Cycle Supply Lincoln badged New World (H20629) that used to belong to @mr.cycleplane .  He posted some nice pics of the bike I thought I'd add here too.  






Updated the list to reflect the lucky new owner:


----------



## rennfaron

@markivpedalpusher some additional background on the bike: in original condition the bike looked like this and was owned by Troyboy prior to Mr.cycleplane (ebay sale in Aug 2019). I always like the non-Schwinn badged NWs.


----------



## markivpedalpusher

@rennfaron thanks !!

It would be fun to put the freewheel brake and front brake back on it.


----------



## Miq

Great pics @rennfaron !!  Thanks for posting them.


----------



## JPKelley5

She is no longer a garden decoration. Back on the same roads she traveled 75 years ago. Rides amazingly well considering the only things I replaced were the spokes, tires and tubes. Such a different experience than the balloon tire bikes from the same era. Still a few adjustments to be made following the test ride (some you can see) but otherwise I’ve done all I plan to do. Thanks for all the help!


















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## Miq

Great transformation @JPKelley5 !!  So cool to see another wartime New World back in working order.  Like the head badge says, she's a FOX.  Thanks for the update.  Enjoy the ride.


----------



## GTs58

The paint patina on this is just beautiful @JPKelley5 !


----------



## JPKelley5

GTs58 said:


> The paint patina on this is just beautiful @JPKelley5 !
> 
> View attachment 1240245




Yeah, the primer/topcoat combo wouldn’t be bad by design! 


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## Casual dreamer

Here are some pics of my wartime Schwinn New World I just bought, has bicycle license from 1944 still on it. Black out sprocket, hubs, headset, Seat post, mud guard braces,Torrington 8 pedals. Has the Lobdel victory saddle. I'm very happy to own this piece of history!


----------



## Miq

Great victory bike @Casual dreamer !!  Thank you for the pic of the serial.  Amazingly enough your bike lands just before JPKelley's bike in the previous post.  I love how many of these wartime bikes have been uncovered this year!







Thanks Casual dreamer.


----------



## JPKelley5

Miq said:


> Great victory bike @Casual dreamer !! Thank you for the pic of the serial. Amazingly enough your bike lands just before JPKelly's bike in the previous post. I love how many of these wartime bikes have been uncovered this year!
> 
> View attachment 1243050
> View attachment 1243051
> Thanks Casual dreamer.





It’s her older brother. Very cool!


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## Just Jeff

Just got this one today. 1941-42. Serial would lead me to think 1942, but it has no blackout parts. I’ll be cleaning it this week so I can see if the cranks have a date code on them at that time.


----------



## 1motime

Great bike!  What are the 4 small holes on the crank sprocket around the crank arm?


----------



## Miq

@Just Jeff Nice bike!  That's the one from @whizzer1  I'm glad to finally see the serial number.  It is going to clean up nicely.  I really like the chain guard, OG saddle, cycle counter and large rear sprocket.  Very happy that you are going to clean it up and make it ride-able.  It's going to be a sweet bike.  Please let me know if you can find a date on the crank.  We have been going with 1942? for the early I serial bikes.  When I pulled my H serial crank it just said 502 for the Schwinn part number.  I hope your bike can shed more info on this.  You are officially the earliest I serial (Wartime) bike on the list.  Looking forward to seeing how this bike comes out!


----------



## Just Jeff

@1motime, I don’t know the particulars on the extra holes on the sprocket, but it seems to be common on the prewar non skip tooth 4 hole sprockets.

@Miq, it is the one whizzer had for sale. I will report back what I find on the cranks when I get it apart. Will be this week for sure, just don’t know when exactly. I’ve been looking for one for a while now and couldn’t pass this one up. Looking forward to getting it ready to ride!


----------



## Miq

@Just Jeff if you need any info on sizes of bearings etc. let me know.  I have a lot of info collected on this era New World.  Yours is very close to my H serial.

@1motime The holes are for the dog leg crank pin to engage with the sprocket.


----------



## 1motime

Miq said:


> @Just Jeff if you need any info on sizes of bearings etc. let me know.  I have a lot of info collected on this era New World.  Yours is very close to my H serial.
> 
> @1motime The holes are for the dog leg crank pin to engage with the sprocket.  View attachment 1249172



That is interesting!  Obviously one is used for crank pin.  But to drill 4?  Holes sometimes wear but that sort of anticipation is strange!


----------



## Oilit

1motime said:


> That is interesting!  Obviously one is used for crank pin.  But to drill 4?  Holes sometimes wear but that sort of anticipation is strange!



The chain ring was probably punched out in a big stamping die. Extra holes would have required extra punches and a little more maintenance, but not a whole lot, especially when you consider the parts produced over the life of the tooling.


----------



## Just Jeff

Got most of the cleaning done today on my bike. I actually did find 2 blackout parts on it. The bottom bearing cups were blackout, but none of the other hardware was.
No date on my cranks unfortunately, but they are interesting to me. Almost has the look of penny pinching to get the arms chrome, but not the center. Kind of cool looking
Last fun thing I found was matching gold pinstriping on the chainguard. Pretty neat to find it under all the crud.
There is a lot of striping left on the bike which surprised me. I won’t post that stuff here though. Guess I’ll need to make a thread for this ones clean up. Stopped cleaning because I hit the wall of diminishing returns. But I’m happy with its progress and I’ll post updates pics when the bike is assembled again


----------



## 1motime

The guard stripes are fantastic!


----------



## GTs58

Another crank where Schwinn forgot to stamp the AS & Co in the sand before casting. And the year stamp. The four pin holes in the chain ring was something that showed up in 39 and that was just a little extra detailing. They did that on some earlier different style rings also. Probably no special reason or purpose, just a styling tweak. Very nice piece @Just Jeff !


----------



## 1motime

GTs58 said:


> Another crank where Schwinn forgot to stamp the AS & Co in the sand before casting. And the year stamp. The four pin holes in the chain ring was something that showed up in 39 and that was just a little extra detailing. They did that on some earlier different style rings also. Probably no special reason or purpose, just a styling tweak. Very nice piece @Just Jeff !



Thanks for the info on the ring.  Always wondered about those holes.


----------



## Miq

@Just Jeff The parts are looking great already!  Nice to see you uncovering a few blackout part and gold pinstripes.  It's going to be sweet when you are done.

The 502 dog leg is actually a "ladies" crank but was also used on the New World men's bike.  My guess is that the BB is pretty close to the ground on these frames and a longer men's crank (501) would just make the pedals want to hit the ground that much easier.  Your markings are identical to the ones on the crank in my bike.  






I updated the chart with the new info you've uncovered.  There is a new dividing line between blackout parts and not.  My Prewar bike is the last one without blackout parts now.  Guess I need to find a real Wartime New World next


----------



## Just Jeff

Other than the wheels and chain I think I’m done cleaning. Pretty happy with it. Also I did find evidence that it may have had a 2 or 3 speed rear hub at some time in its life. Paint damage and clean paint spots on the top tube.
As far as the wheels go, I think I’ll completely disable them to do a thorough cleaning and then rebuild them. I also need new tires. The front which is a Carlisle Ribgripper is cracked pretty bad. Only good for a low pressure display.
Anyhow, here it is all cleaned up


----------



## 1motime

Good job!  Cleaned up nicely.  You are probably right about being a 3 speed.  Wear  is where the old style handle would be.  Convert it back?


----------



## Just Jeff

Well darn. Now I guess I need to put my bike back to its former glory...




At least I know for sure now it was originally equipped with a 2 speed


----------



## Miq

The plot thickens...  

Whizzer1 was selling a DD just a few weeks ago.  I bought a New World saddle like yours from him around this time.  He must have had (has) at least one New World parts bike.  

You weren't kidding about breaking down the wheels.  Kenda K-23 tires will fit your S-6 rims.  I believe they are the ONLY choice available.  I have been using 290mm J bend spokes on my rear wheel that's equipped with a New Departure Model D.  Is that what you were thinking too?


----------



## Just Jeff

That was my plan. However the world closing down has put that on hold. Went to 5 LBS last evening and none had the spokes needed. I’m impatient so I cleaned the old ones and I’m just gonna use them. For now. Rear wheel is back together with all its parts, just cleaner now 

Just waiting on new tires. I guess It’s time to take apart the front wheel now!


----------



## Miq

Love the red white and blue Big Arm = Brake lever! 

I see you found the ~80 year old S-2 tire size stamps inside too.  I'm digging reliving my rat-storation from your pics!  Brings back good memories.


----------



## Just Jeff

This is a fun project for me. More work than I initially wanted to do, but I enjoy working on them. I like em a little crusty, so this one fits right in with my other bikes!  
I’ve had that brake arm for a while now and figured this bike was the perfect one for it


----------



## Church578

Wow! Nice project 


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## SirMike1983

New World G29611 is a new listing on eBay. Has regular dropouts, but wood rims and deep drop bars. Single speed coaster brake. Uncommon white paint. Uncommon skiptooth variation of the four-hole clover sprocket. Unusual fluted one-piece crank. Unusual red racing type tires for the wood rims. Fair to rough condition.


----------



## GTs58

Crazy piece there @SirMike1983 . Looks like a real 1940 New World Racer with a couple of changes, possibly by an owner. Fork, rims, bars, pedals all appear to be Racer equipment but the stem and crank set seem to be off beat. The catalog image does show a 1" pitch drive train with a different sprocket, not the clover. I doubt that stem is original to the bike but who knows.
The bars on this piece look like the image for the 39 Racer and the 39 also shows the clover ring, without the four holes. I think the clover with the four holes started out with the 1940 models. Specs on the 39 state *one piece fluted straight crank* but the shell appears to be the size for a three piece crank in the catalog image. Options for a 1/2" or the 1" sprocket are mentioned. The 39's also had the rear forks and the 40 NW's had the drop out so maybe this piece was a very early 1940 build.
Interesting that it had real deep drops and then they upped the bars with a ballooner stem.


----------



## Miq

Yea super neat racer @SirMike1983 !  I really like the pedals. I’ll add it to the chart tonight. We have not seen many Prewar racers. Thanks for posting it here!


----------



## 1motime

Antique Arnold Schwinn Chicago New World Wood Rimmed Race Bike  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Antique Arnold Schwinn Chicago New World Wood Rimmed Race Bike at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					rover.ebay.com
				




Fair price


----------



## Miq

1939 Racer:









Adding @Oilit 's 1947-48 to the list too.  First Post War D serial bike!


----------



## Just Jeff

Just saw this one on eBay for sale. “I” serial number with ef bb. Appears to have blackout hardware on the crank bearing set


----------



## GTs58

That's the earliest I number with the electro-forged BB shell. Since there is no mention on the list of one or three piece cranks, I can't tell what bikes had the three piece cranks that were never EF. This is the second NW I've seen today with the AS & CO chain ring mated to a  one piece crank. Did someone drill out a hole for the drive pins on these?


----------



## Oilit

So "I07615" was electroforged but "I23545" wasn't.  Schwinn didn't make it easy, did they?


----------



## Miq

Thanks for posting it here @Just Jeff !!  The paint and chrome parts look like they are in nice shape.

The I series bikes are a little mixed up for sure.  There is also a mix up of blackout and not blackout parts in this range.


----------



## Just Jeff

There is another red possible prewar on eBay as well, but no photo of the serial number so I didn’t grab screenshots of that one


----------



## GTs58

Just Jeff said:


> There is another red possible prewar on eBay as well, but no photo of the serial number so I didn’t grab screenshots of that one




That one is a very nice well preserved 1940-41 with the 2 speed. Twelve photos and not one of the shifter, but two shots of the front brake.


----------



## JPKelley5

Not a lot of detail, but there's one here in Virginia on Craiglist...

https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/d/state-farm-1950-schwinn-new-world/7199190020.html

One owner. Shall I ask for the serial number?


----------



## GTs58

JPKelley5 said:


> Not a lot of detail, but there's one here in Virginia on Craiglist...
> 
> https://richmond.craigslist.org/bik/d/state-farm-1950-schwinn-new-world/7199190020.html
> 
> One owner. Shall I ask for the serial number?




Early post war model with a prewar chain ring. Must be real early post war or maybe a 1945 build using up old parts.


----------



## Kramai88

Just Jeff said:


> Just saw this one on eBay for sale. “I” serial number with ef bb. Appears to have blackout hardware on the crank bearing set
> 
> View attachment 1273920
> 
> View attachment 1273921
> 
> View attachment 1273922
> 
> View attachment 1273923
> 
> View attachment 1273924
> 
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> 
> View attachment 1273927
> 
> View attachment 1273928
> 
> View attachment 1273929
> 
> View attachment 1273930
> 
> View attachment 1273931




I picked this bike up today. Bars are obviously not original along with the front rim. The rest of the bike looks like it could be original. The paint is original still hints of the gold stripes. I saw a question on how the crank was attached to the sprocket I’m attaching a picture of it 





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## GTs58

Cool piece @Kramai88  !  So they did whittle out a rectangle making it somewhat round for the drive pin.


----------



## jimbo53

Here is a 1940 (I presume-greater minds welcome to opine) New World ssn H07717. Looks complete.
I already turned the handlebars over and replaced the split and taped Schwinn grips. I found a pair of NOS Uniroyal 26 x 1.375 tires so should have this old girl up and riding in short order. I Welcome comments and opinions, so help me learn about what I picked up off Facebook Marketplace.


----------



## jimbo53

Here is the highest resolution ad image I could find for a prewar New World


----------



## jimbo53

Verified my New World is a 1941. I located a pair of NOS Uniroyal Touring 26 x 1.325 tire and with new tubes and rimstrips, the old girls a rider! Love cruising with the drops. High pressure (50psi) tires make riding a dream!


----------



## Miq

Great pics of your bike @jimbo53!!  Thanks for sharing them.  Those tires look smooth and fast.


----------



## locomotion

my 1940 Schwinn New World Racer model W3R
Serial C2702
currently in the For Sale section


----------



## GTs58

locomotion said:


> my 1940 Schwinn New World Racer model W3R
> Serial C2702
> currently in the For Sale section
> 
> View attachment 1329918
> 
> View attachment 1329919





How are you dating your NW Racer? Since the 1940 New Worlds were the first models to be equipped with a rear fork drop out, I'd have to say your example is a 1939 model.


----------



## jimbo53

My 41 New World Racer made its debut at the Giordanna Velodrome in Rock Hill SC a couple of months ago when the had a swap meet there. My friend Dyllon, a local hot shoe on the circuit (First shot is him at speed working through a pack, not on my bike!) took a liking to my Schwinn New World and took it for a couple of laps. The smile say I think he liked it!

View attachment 1330295


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## locomotion

GTs58 said:


> How are you dating your NW Racer? Since the 1940 New Worlds were the first models to be equipped with a rear fork drop out, I'd have to say your example is a 1939 model.



i was going off catalogue pictures ..... but now just noticed the difference in drop-outs. I am not very knowledgeable about Schwinn bicycles
thanks for the correction
Max

P.S. anyone have a 1939 Schwinn catalogue picture to share? would like to have the correct literature to share on my ad


----------



## C M Gerlach

Finally cleaned up this 1941 champion badged new world.......came out okay.


----------



## Oilit

C M Gerlach said:


> Finally cleaned up this 1941 champion badged new world.......came out okay.
> 
> View attachment 1337680
> 
> View attachment 1337681
> 
> View attachment 1337682
> 
> View attachment 1337684
> 
> View attachment 1337685
> 
> View attachment 1337689
> 
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> 
> View attachment 1337693
> 
> View attachment 1337694
> 
> View attachment 1337695
> 
> View attachment 1337696
> 
> View attachment 1337697
> 
> View attachment 1337698



I'd say it came out pretty nice! You don't see those "slat" fender stays very often, they must not have been used for long.


----------



## HARPO

1941. Picked this up on Saturday. A LOT of non-original pieces, including the wheels, fork and fenders. Photos are AS FOUND.


----------



## Miq

A few entries to add to the list have piled up over the past few months.  Here's some updates:

@jimbo53 Thanks for sharing the development of your Black 41.  I really enjoyed seeing it at the track.  80 years of smiles.

@locomotion That racer is one of the oldest on our list and fits in nicely with it's brothers.  Here's a '39 catalog "photo" of the one piece crank version W1R.  Did it already sell?





@C M Gerlach Thank you for adding the Red Champion badged bike.  It is very unique.  @Oilit is right, the Slat type mudguard braces are really interesting with the little triangular metal piece tying the rear slats together at the hub.  I've seen them on New Worlds in 1939 catalog pictures, but they don't show up on 1941 bikes.  I wonder if they were using them up (old stock) on a run of different Champion badged bikes.  The wire style braces of this time are not nearly as durable as the slat style you have.  Your bike is in VERY nice shape.     Here's the '39 Catalog showing those braces:





@HARPO Thank you for adding your new New World.  It's the older brother of your '48.  Now you have a prewar and a post war.  Nice!  I'm listing it as black paint but sometimes it looks dark green.  ???  Looking forward to seeing where you take it.


----------



## C M Gerlach

Great thread @Miq , nice job putting this together.


----------



## C M Gerlach

Great thread Miq , nice job putting this together.


----------



## GTs58

@C M Gerlach 's New World reminded me of this so called 1945 piece that's on this not so accurate site. http://classiccycleus.com/home/1945-schwinn-new-world/






The NW featured here is definitely not a 1945 model or even a war time piece. Schwinn started electro-forging the head tubes and the tube joints at the head tube in 1943 and this one is definitely not EF. Another indication is the fender stays and the kickstand is not built in and it doesn't have the removable seat post clamp. Anyone ever see a New World with that style front fender? This example is what I believe to be a FrankenWorld and shouldn't be passed off as a 1945 built New World.


----------



## Miq

@GTs58 That's the other pic I've seen of those Slat style mudguard braces!  We have never figured out a serial number for that one, have we?  The frame is prewar.  There's a lot going on with that bike.


----------



## HARPO

@Miq I will be passing it on as there's just _so muc_h it needs to be original...wheels, fenders, fork...and the paint is black but pretty much gone. I've listed it on Facebook at $99 (PICKUP ONLY) for someone who would give it the love it deserves.


----------



## Miq

@rennfaron has been showing pics of a sweet 23" black J serial wartime New World on this thread.





































I added Renn's to the Wartime Chart just before Arf's similar 23" Black NW and also updated @locomotion '39-40 Racer color:


----------



## Oilit

@Miq, This one's on EBay, and it's not war-time, but it's early and it's not on the list. Serial no. C2180 with a rear fork and wooden rims, looks like it was just pulled out of a barn.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1940-SCHWI...-PRE-PARAMOUNT/184558045580?campid=5335809022


----------



## Miq

Another early survivor.  Thanks @Oilit that's the earliest C+4Digit serial we've seen!  39-40 for sure.  Those hand stamped 3 piece crank BB racer frames are sweet.


----------



## Miq

I dug up this decade old New World post from @rideahiggins on his 1940 New World 2 speed.  Serial D8767.  It is complete and looks all original with locking fork and pin stripes.


----------



## Oilit

Miq said:


> I dug up this decade old New World post from @rideahiggins on his 1940 New World 2 speed. Serial D8767. It is complete and looks all original with locking fork and pin stripes.
> View attachment 1364933View attachment 1364934View attachment 1364935View attachment 1364936View attachment 1364937
> View attachment 1364940
> View attachment 1364941



Pre-war New Departure hubs could be 2 speeds, but a Sturmey-Archer should be 3 speeds. I was going to ask about the date code on the hub but you've beat me to it. Nice bike though, I hadn't seen this one. Thanks for posting it!


----------



## SirMike1983

Those are some of the best-preserved pin stripes on a New World I've seen. The white is an unusual color to find, and it's in good shape on that bike. Hub is probably an AW. It may or may not have a date code - the ones from around WWII sometimes don't have a date code.


----------



## Miq

@Jon Olson posted some pics in another thread of his 1940 step through with 3 speed hub and 3 piece crank.  Similar to @vincev D serial 3 piece crank bike, the D in the serial is the hard to read I / 0 double strike. This bike also has flat mudguard braces from the 1939 Catalog and a nice AS&Co chainring.








1939 Catalog pic of braces.


----------



## 1936PEDALER

Century badge, used by Gas and Electric Co. (Baltimore?).
 Speedo shows over 5000 miles?
Pictures aren’t great,as it’s hanging in a window,but can get more if interested


----------



## Oilit

1936PEDALER said:


> Century badge, used by Gas and Electric Co. (Baltimore?).
> Speedo shows over 5000 miles?
> Pictures aren’t great,as it’s hanging in a window,but can get more if interested
> 
> View attachment 1375451
> 
> View attachment 1375452
> 
> View attachment 1375453
> 
> View attachment 1375454
> 
> View attachment 1375455
> 
> View attachment 1375456



Interesting bike! Maybe they rode it around reading meters? Looks like lots of blackout parts!


----------



## 1936PEDALER

Oilit said:


> Interesting bike! Maybe they rode it around reading meters? Looks like lots of blackout parts!



It does have an old flashlight and holder, and yes all black out


----------



## Miq

That’s a really neat wartime bike @1936PEDALER !!  We haven’t seen one with that badge or paint/decals before.  I would love to see more pics.  @GTs58 what do you make of the threaded plug in the EF BB?  Is that something Schwinn did?  The black out ND rear hub looks nice.  Cool victory bike.


----------



## GTs58

Miq said:


> That’s a really neat wartime bike @1936PEDALER !!  We haven’t seen one with that badge or paint/decals before.  I would love to see more pics.  @GTs58 what do you make of the threaded plug in the EF BB?  Is that something Schwinn did?  The black out ND rear hub looks nice.  Cool victory bike.




Cool piece! And a J series war time NW. It seems to have been used for a work type vehicle so maybe that "drain plug" was used to do a quick needed lube on the bottom bracket. First time I've seen that on a one piece crank. I couldn't imagine how much grease or oil is needed to fill that to where it would do any good though.


----------



## 1936PEDALER

1936PEDALER said:


> Century badge, used by Gas and Electric Co. (Baltimore?).
> Speedo shows over 5000 miles?
> Pictures aren’t great,as it’s hanging in a window,but can get more if interested
> 
> View attachment 1375451
> 
> View attachment 1375452
> 
> View attachment 1375453
> 
> View attachment 1375454
> 
> View attachment 1375455
> 
> View attachment 1375456


----------



## Oilit

That's really nice! I'm guessing the chain guard was aftermarket since the war-time bikes didn't have them, but it suits the look of the bike to a "T". And that badge is the crowning touch!


----------



## Miq

It's even nicer in the light.  Love the Gas and Light top tube and rear fender art, pin stripes, blackout hub, painted rims, Lobdell Victory V saddle, short rear mudguard and single wire brace.  Really unique and cool.  I can see why people have been taking care of it for the past 80 years.  I found a copy of a Baltimore Gas and Electric 200th Anny catalog.  It would have been called Consolidated Gas and Electric Co back then.  Catalog had a cool pic of some of the bikes they used in the 1920's and this classic WWII poster:






View attachment 1377482






Great stuff @1936PEDALER !  Thanks for sharing it with us.


----------



## 1936PEDALER

Miq said:


> It's even nicer in the light.  Love the Gas and Light top tube and rear fender art, pin stripes, blackout hub, painted rims, Lobdell Victory V saddle, short rear mudguard and single wire brace.  Really unique and cool.  I can see why people have been taking care of it for the past 80 years.  I found a copy of a Baltimore Gas and Electric 200th Anny catalog.  It would have been called Consolidated Gas and Electric Co back then.  Catalog had a cool pic of some of the bikes they used in the 1920's and this classic WWII poster:
> View attachment 1377477View attachment 1377476
> View attachment 1377482
> View attachment 1377481
> View attachment 1377488
> Great stuff @1936PEDALER !  Thanks for sharing it with us.



Thanks so much for your insight.
 Hard to imagine a war going on and pedaling the hills of Baltimore all day while working.
 This bike is,as found in a basement in east Baltimore. Every moving part was perfectly adjusted and smooth as glass. The rear fender tab is the only repair needed


----------



## RustyHornet

Just posting to save the thread. Will post more about this one when I dig into it!


----------



## Oilit

Here's the link for one I posted at the end of last year. It's pretty rough and a lot of the original parts have been changed out or tossed, but it's the first post-war "F" serial on the list and it has Schwinn S-8 extruded aluminum rims, which were an unusual option. I'm not even certain these were original to the bike, but the hub date (Jan. 1949) is a fairly close match to the serial date (May 1949), so maybe.








						1949 New World with Schwinn S-8 Rims | Lightweight Schwinn Bicycles
					

So I saw a listing on Facebook Marketplace.




					thecabe.com


----------



## RustyHornet

I found a wartime ladies bike localish to me. It’s not complete, missing front fender, chain guard and no good grips. I asked the guy if he would sell parts off it because I need a rear fender brace. It has blackout parts, just a coaster brake bike. Anyone here have any interest in any of the other parts? I don’t need the whole thing and wife would kill me, but id like to have that rear brace.


----------



## Jon Olson

Miq said:


> @Jon Olson posted some pics in another thread of his 1940 step through with 3 speed hub and 3 piece crank.  Similar to @vincev D serial 3 piece crank bike, the D in the serial is the hard to read I / 0 double strike. This bike also has flat mudguard braces from the 1939 Catalog and a nice AS&Co chainring.
> View attachment 1375319
> View attachment 1375320
> 
> 1939 Catalog pic of braces.
> View attachment 1375323
> View attachment 1375383
> View attachment 1375384



“Oilit “ asked me to post these pictures of my 1940-41? This is the original 3-speed hud that came with the bicycle.


----------



## Miq

Thanks @Jon Olson !  I think @SirMike1983 said it would likely be an AW stamped hub.  What do you guys make of that faint "0" there too?  I found this digging around on the net.  I'm probably just getting hip to this:




AW 0  = 1940?  Makes sense with the BB Serial.

Adding pics of @Oilit 's 1949 F serial with 3 speed SA hub w 49 date code, Paramount front hub, sweet S-8 rims, Wise Lock, and 50's shifter.

























Another unique New World @Oilit, thanks for pointing me to it!


----------



## SirMike1983

On the single-digit year code hubs, the digit will often appear directly to the right of the "AW". So if you have a "0" next to the AW, 1940 is a good bet.  A 36-hole from 1940 is a good hub to have because it's from one of the early generations of AW and a Schwinn-friendly spoke count.


----------



## Oilit

Miq said:


> Thanks @Jon Olson !  I think @SirMike1983 said it would likely be an AW stamped hub.  What do you guys make of that faint "0" there too?  I found this digging around on the net.  I'm probably just getting hip to this:
> 
> View attachment 1384549
> AW 0  = 1940?  Makes sense with the BB Serial.
> 
> Adding pics of @Oilit 's 1949 F serial with 3 speed SA hub w 49 date code, Paramount front hub, sweet S-8 rims, Wise Lock, and 50's shifter.
> View attachment 1384550
> View attachment 1384551View attachment 1384552View attachment 1384553
> View attachment 1384554View attachment 1384556View attachment 1384558View attachment 1384559View attachment 1384571View attachment 1384576View attachment 1384577
> Another unique New World @Oilit, thanks for pointing me to it!
> View attachment 1384582
> View attachment 1384584



1940 would be my guess. I wonder how many of these were exported by Sturmey-Archer before the war pre-empted everything else?


----------



## Miq

@Darj posted this all original 1940 NW Racer with custom bent diadrant fork.  Persons Track Racer saddle, wooden rims, track stem and bars, race pedals, pin stripes and decals are all there.  Fit's nicely between it's racer brothers on the chart.  Most of the top 10 oldest New Worlds on the list are Racers.


----------



## GTs58

Here's one I came across on Facebook. New owner D. McDonald picked it up Saturday 4-10-21. Pic of the serial # K56142 pending.

"It was said it was used during the war at the Port of Tampa during the war as a customs inspector vehicle. It has #2 painted (very nicely) on the front fender peak, and "CUST. INSP." on the back of the same fender, though sadly scratched mostly off."

Rims were painted black at some point and had one war tire. Rear tire is a US Chain 42, front is a Goodyear, both in 26"1.375".

Hopefully he'll pop in here and add more once he goes thru his NW.


----------



## Miq

Looks like blackout hubs and the short rear mud guard with single wire brace, no kickstand etc.  Def Wartime. Nice.


----------



## 1motime

GTs58 said:


> Here's one I came across on Facebook. New owner D. McDonald picked it up Saturday 4-10-21. Pic of the serial # K56142 pending.
> 
> "It was said it was used during the war at the Port of Tampa during the war as a customs inspector vehicle. It has #2 painted (very nicely) on the front fender peak, and "CUST. INSP." on the back of the same fender, though sadly scratched mostly off."
> 
> Rims were painted black at some point and had one war tire. Rear tire is a US Chain 42, front is a Goodyear, both in 26"1.375".
> 
> View attachment 1390459
> 
> View attachment 1390455
> 
> View attachment 1390456
> 
> View attachment 1390457
> 
> View attachment 1390458
> 
> 
> View attachment 1390460
> 
> View attachment 1390461
> 
> View attachment 1390462



Beautiful  Form and function.  The speed lines coming off of No. 2 are perfect


----------



## Doodsie

Picked up one of these guys last weekend. It was used at the Port of Tampa during the war by a customs inspector.


----------



## Miq

Great Wartime bike @Doodsie !  I’ll add it to the list.  Very cool paint and blackout parts.  Please post more pics if you clean it up.


----------



## GTs58

Doodsie said:


> Picked up one of these guys last weekend. It was used at the Port of Tampa during the war by a customs inspector. View attachment 1391440View attachment 1391441View attachment 1391442





Welcome to the Cabe Dean! Hopefully Miq's thread on these NW's has helped in answering any other questions you may have had. Please post your findings here when you pull the crank and I'll have my fingers crossed hoping there is a casting date so that we can get an idea of when these K serial pieces were produced. Have fun! 
Gary


----------



## jimbo53

I didn’t know we had a Cabe Dean. Do we have to submit an entrance application? Are scholarships available?


----------



## Oilit

jimbo53 said:


> I didn’t know we had a Cabe Dean. Do we have to submit an entrance application? Are scholarships available?



If we have scholarships, there's some bikes I've been studying that I need for research!


----------



## Doodsie

Miq said:


> Great Wartime bike @Doodsie !  I’ll add it to the list.  Very cool paint and blackout parts.  Please post more pics if you clean it up.



I hadn't really planned on cleaning it, with the exception of having a sign painter repair the customs lettering. Perhaps a light scrub when I am servicing it.


----------



## Doodsie

GTs58 said:


> Welcome to the Cabe Dean! Hopefully Miq's thread on these NW's has helped in answering any other questions you may have had. Please post your findings here when you pull the crank and I'll have my fingers crossed hoping there is a casting date so that we can get an idea of when these K serial pieces were produced. Have fun!
> Gary



Thanks, and yes, there's lots of great info here. And thank you
 for all the great info you provided on FB and for directing me here.


GTs58 said:


> Welcome to the Cabe Dean! Hopefully Miq's thread on these NW's has helped in answering any other questions you may have had. Please post your findings here when you pull the crank and I'll have my fingers crossed hoping there is a casting date so that we can get an idea of when these K serial pieces were produced. Have fun!
> Gary


----------



## Miq

Doodsie said:


> I hadn't really planned on cleaning it, with the exception of having a sign painter repair the customs lettering. Perhaps a light scrub when I am servicing it.



Sounds perfect.


----------



## GTs58

detroitbike said:


> Were the wartime bikes limited to certain models?
> I have a tourist 3 speed 26” wheel Paramount with blackout
> hubs. I’ll have to check the hub stamp & S/N .





Did you find anything that would indicate a build time? It was mentioned by Schwinn in a March 1942 magazine ad that the only bikes that will be built will be the New World and it had no mention of Cycle Trucks that were being produced. If your Paramount was early (pre) post war it very well could be a 1945 model and have some black out parts as some of the early 1945 New Worlds that have shown up. This was obviously published in 1945.


----------



## Miq

Added @Doodsie 's custom Custom Inspectors bike to the list and saw this one for sale by @Rust_Trader this morning.  Nice complete (minus pedals) prewar bike. OG seat, rear reflector, paint & decals, cycle counter, cool bell.  Pretty sweet.


----------



## RustyHornet

Started in on this one today. Was looking around at the bike projects and this was the next one that wasn’t going to cost me much if any money! If anyone has a spare rear fender brace they don’t need and a front chain guard non drive side clamp, I’m in need of correct parts!

When I bought it.






After today.


----------



## RustyHornet

Here’s the digits if it can be added to the registry. Who knows what all the other stamped numbers besides the serial mean? 625? On the sprocket and frame.


----------



## Doodsie

Miq said:


> Sounds perfect.



No date on the crank. H502 and a + in a circle. The threads under the outer cone are pretty boogered, don't know how only the inner half can be messed up.


----------



## GTs58

Doodsie said:


> No date on the crank. H502 and a + in a circle. The threads under the outer cone are pretty boogered, don't know how only the inner half can be messed up.




I was really hoping for some good news with a casting date. Dang, double whammy with buggered up cone threads and no date. Is the cone serviceable?


----------



## Miq

@RustyHornet thats going to fit nice on the chart. The other stamps could be bike security stampings from a registry. ??

@Doodsie those were the same markings as on my OG 41 crank. 502 is the Ladies/New World 6.5” crank part number. Sorry to hear about the threads. The ladies 502 dog leg cranks are somewhat easier to find at least.


----------



## RustyHornet

@Miq That very well could be! I’m a little disappointed, but should have known... The red paint is really thick on this one, I was able to strip the neck yesterday, not much chrome left. It started in on the bars, doesn’t seem like much chrome at all survived on those. Fate of this one is uncertain right now! It will be riding again, just not sure what it’s gonna look like!


----------



## Doodsie

GTs58 said:


> I was really hoping for some good news with a casting date. Dang, double whammy with buggered up cone threads and no date. Is the cone serviceable?





GTs58 said:


> I was really hoping for some good news with a casting date. Dang, double whammy with buggered up cone threads and no date. Is the cone serviceable?



It took a lot of effort to thread it off the good threads, but I don't expect I'll be reusing it. I have a similar vintage ladies bike that has the same crank. I should have not touched any of the damn bike and left it as found.


----------



## Doodsie

Miq said:


> @RustyHornet thats going to fit nice on the chart. The other stamps could be bike security stampings from a registry. ??
> 
> @Doodsie those were the same markings as on my OG 41 crank. 502 is the Ladies/New World 6.5” crank part number. Sorry to hear about the threads. The ladies 502 dog leg cranks are somewhat easier to find at least.



I have a similar vintage ladies bike just outside the back door with that crank. Didn't want to part it, I'll try to reuse the original. We'll see.


----------



## Miq

Adding @RustyHornet 's La Salle badged prewar to the list.  Interesting that it is just under @markivpedalpusher 's Chicago Cycle Supply "Lincoln" badged New World.  Lot's of rebadging on New Worlds.  @RustyHornet don't give up on the paint removal.  Let's see how much of the OG maroon you can uncover.


----------



## RustyHornet

@Miq here’s a better shot of the rear fender. I believe it to be original, but one of the braces has definitely been swapped out. I’d love to replace it with a correct one if anyone has a wire brace!


----------



## Miq

@RustyHornet Ahh I see, OK I corrected the entry above to say "rear stay replaced".  Thank you for reminding me and the pics too.

Lacquer thinner will work on that mudguard.


----------



## RustyHornet

Miq said:


> @RustyHornet Ahh I see, OK I corrected the entry above to say "rear stay replaced".  Thank you for reminding me and the pics too.
> 
> Lacquer thinner will work on that mudguard.



Thank you! I plan to do all the chrome bits first, then start on the smaller painted pieces. I’m nervous about the silver pin stripes and decals on the frame...


----------



## RustyHornet

Spotted one today. I don’t need it, but it’s neat!


----------



## Jim sciano

Grabbed a pretty rough one today. Not sure what I will do with it. Frame and fork look straight. Not sure if the bars and stem are correct. Rear rim and hub are wrong. Front fender looks homemade. Front hub and rim might be correct. New departure front hub. Maroon is the original color. I used some acetone on the silver and it comes off pretty easy. I might try to get all the silver off. I’m guessing with the chart that is going here, probably a 39ish. Let me know what you think.


----------



## GTs58

Jim sciano said:


> Grabbed a pretty rough one today. Not sure what I will do with it. Frame and fork look straight. Not sure if the bars and stem are correct. Rear rim and hub are wrong. Front fender looks homemade. Front hub and rim might be correct. New departure front hub. Maroon is the original color. I used some acetone on the silver and it comes off pretty easy. I might try to get all the silver off. I’m guessing with the chart that is going here, probably a 39ish. Let me know what you think. View attachment 1412651
> View attachment 1412652
> 
> View attachment 1412653
> 
> View attachment 1412654
> 
> View attachment 1412655




1939 was the only year the New Worlds had that rear fork end. The 1940 models were the first Schwinn bikes to have the rear drop out fork ends.


----------



## Jim sciano

GTs58 said:


> 1939 was the only year the New Worlds had that rear fork end. The 1940 models were the first Schwinn bikes to have the rear drop out fork ends.



Guess I learn something everyday. Thank you.


----------



## Miq

Thank you for the addition @Jim sciano !  We have not seen many of the rear fork end bikes with a one piece crank.


----------



## Jim sciano

Miq said:


> Thank you for the addition @Jim sciano !  We have not seen many of the rear fork end bikes with a one piece crank.  View attachment 1413308 View attachment 1413307



I am excited to say, she might just make a comeback. It will always be a bit rough, but the silver paint is coming off nicely and was able to work on getting a little shine back. I was just playing around with the paint a little tonight and I am very pleased. Also, can anyone verify if the bars and stem are correct? From the catalog pics, I was assuming it should have the “boy scout” bars? Here’s a sneak peak.


----------



## Miq

Looking really good!  The bars could be the correct tourist bars mounted upside down.


----------



## GTs58

Jim sciano said:


> I am excited to say, she might just make a comeback. It will always be a bit rough, but the silver paint is coming off nicely and was able to work on getting a little shine back. I was just playing around with the paint a little tonight and I am very pleased. Also, can anyone verify if the bars and stem are correct? From the catalog pics, I was assuming it should have the “boy scout” bars? Here’s a sneak peak. View attachment 1413309




Wow, what a big difference! Nice job cleaning off that Aluminum? paint. Is there a down tube decal on there? I'm thinking the bars would be correct and they're just down side up. Even though the catalog images show the paperboy bars that are standard spec, the tourist bars were an option.  Stem is not, or at least not like the ones on the vast majority of these. Check out the optional Tourist bars on this "39" catalog page. https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCat/flschwinn_1893_1940/1939_17.html


----------



## Jim sciano

GTs58 said:


> Wow, what a big difference! Nice job cleaning off that Aluminum? paint. Is there a down tube decal on there? I'm thinking the bars would be correct and they're just down side up. Even though the catalog images show the paperboy bars that are standard spec, the tourist bars were
> 
> 
> 
> an option. Stem is not, or at least not like the ones on the vast majority of these. Check out the optional Tourist bars on this "39" catalog page. https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCat/flschwinn_1893_1940/1939_17.html



The down tube decal is almost not visible. Barely anything left. Thanks for the catalog link. It’s a silver color paint but it looks like it was brushed on. Coming off pretty easily with acetone.


----------



## SirMike1983

Miq said:


> Thank you for the addition @Jim sciano !  We have not seen many of the rear fork end bikes with a one piece crank.  View attachment 1413308 View attachment 1413307




If Jim's is C24707, would it not be farther down the list? That is to say it is number 24707 within the "C" series, which would be later than 3700 within the "C" series? Or are you sorting by the first digit after the C? I ask because it moves the rear dropout change point farther down the list if you have 24707 after 3700 rather than before.


----------



## Miq

Hi @SirMike1983, I was tossing that around in my head last night too.  I was just keeping the 5 digit serial (one piece crank) bikes separated from the 3 piece hand stamped bikes for now, but you're right from a numerical order point of view.  @GTs58 has an interesting idea about the hand stamped 4 digit numbers coinciding with the 5 digit machine stamped numbers.  Maybe he will chime in...


----------



## GTs58

All the four digit serials were hand stamped on the 3 piece crank shells and the 5 digit numbers were machine stamped on the one piece crank shells. I'd keep those two sets of numbers separate simply because they most likely were not stamped on the same day,week or month or before the higher 5 digit machine stamped numbers. How many shells can be hand stamped in a day compared to the numbers a machine can stamp? The only relationship between the two was the C series time period and not the sequential numbers. It's also been proven that the serial stamped shells were not used in any kind of numerical order when building the frames. Keep in mind that the serial stamped one piece crank shells were also used to build the Balloon frames. As it stands today, the drop outs were new on the 1940 models which had the D series and if Schwinn's production practices were the same at this time as all the post war years, it wouldn't surprise me if a new 1940 model with drop outs had a late (high number) 1939 C stamped serial that may have been stamped in November or December 1939.


----------



## Miq

Its clear that there were two different build operations during this time.  I like the idea of keeping the 4 digit and 5 digit serial bikes separated, and it is just in this 1939-1940 range where this possible.  Thanks for adding more detail @GTs58

Here's a post war 1948 New World from new member @74porsche914 's sale.  Here


----------



## Oilit

Miq said:


> Its clear that there were two different build operations during this time.  I like the idea of keeping the 4 digit and 5 digit serial bikes separated, and it is just in this 1939-1940 range where this possible.  Thanks for adding more detail @GTs58
> 
> Here's a post war 1948 New World from new member @74porsche914 's sale.  Here
> 
> View attachment 1414143View attachment 1414144View attachment 1414145View attachment 1414146
> View attachment 1414148View attachment 1414149View attachment 1414151View attachment 1414150
> 
> View attachment 1414159
> View attachment 1414157
> 
> View attachment 1414152



I wonder if those rims are stainless S-6's? It's from the right period and they look awful clean.


----------



## GTs58

Pretty decent survivor. Looks like someone cleaned up the front rim, spokes and nipples and then gave up leaving the rear untouched.   

I'm not so sure that's an E serial. I flipped the picture and blew it up slightly and it looks like a perfectly lined up scratch at the bottom of an F.


----------



## Miq

Here’s @Oilit ’s F serial BB for comparison. 



The tops and bottoms of the letters are tough to get formed cleanly with a flat punch on a curved surface.  The 5 end looks nice and deep, but the F is a little light at the top...


----------



## GTs58

Wonder what happened to the image I posted? I'll load it again. It's really hard to tell but if it was a light stamp it would still run to the end. Stamping die broken off maybe? The vertical line of the stamping does appear to end at the bottom.


----------



## Wards Guy..

Here’s a new one… picked today


----------



## GTs58

Wards Guy.. said:


> Here’s a new one… picked today
> View attachment 1420553
> 
> View attachment 1420554
> 
> View attachment 1420559
> 
> View attachment 1420561
> 
> View attachment 1420560
> 
> View attachment 1420555
> 
> View attachment 1420556
> 
> View attachment 1420557




Dang, look at that CT razor stem! Boy Scout bars too? I wonder when that was actually used last, thinking by someone that delivered newspapers in 1960 and added those items and the 2 speed auto.


----------



## Alan Brase

Wow, that Bendix gets me thinking... I have a blackout bike, missing wheels, and a Bendix...That would sure make that LAST hill a lot easier. Be like a 30 gear instead of a 50?


----------



## RustyHornet

@Wards Guy.. is that green???


----------



## Wards Guy..

Alan Brase said:


> Wow, that Bendix gets me thinking... I have a blackout bike, missing wheels, and a Bendix...That would sure make that LAST hill a lot easier. Be like a 30 gear instead of a 50?



I have a cream set of wheel sets that I could part with if your interested. Period correct too. Let me know.


RustyHornet said:


> @Wards Guy.. is that green???



yes it isssssss!


----------



## Wards Guy..




----------



## RustyHornet

Wards Guy.. said:


> yes it isssssss!



That’s awesome!!! Major jelly!


----------



## Miq

Cool color @Wards Guy..   It’s looking good.


----------



## Jim sciano

Ok, I am definitely surprised to see how the paint turned out, especially with how thick the silver was. Probably would have been a little better but they lightly sanded before painting silver. I think most of the parts I swapped are period correct. Pedals are what I had laying around. I would not have done this unless you guys pointed out the one year frame. Only a few letters left of the schwinn new world decal but still cool to see something there. Few before during and after pics.


----------



## GTs58

Jim sciano said:


> Ok, I am definitely surprised to see how the paint turned out, especially with how thick the silver was. Probably would have been a little better but they lightly sanded before painting silver. I think most of the parts I swapped are period correct. Pedals are what I had laying around. I would not have done this unless you guys pointed out the one year frame. Only a few letters left of the schwinn new world decal but still cool to see something there. Few before during and after pics. View attachment 1422444
> View attachment 1422451
> 
> View attachment 1422454
> 
> View attachment 1422445
> 
> View attachment 1422446
> 
> View attachment 1422447
> 
> View attachment 1422449
> 
> View attachment 1422448





OMG! You are hardcore! That's unbelievable Jim.


----------



## Wards Guy..

Love making the list!!! Thanks


----------



## Miq

Great work @Jim sciano !!  Unreal how much usable paint was left underneath.  😎

You bet @Wards Guy.. Lots of cool New World transformations lately.  🤩


----------



## Jim sciano

GTs58 said:


> OMG! You are hardcore! That's unbelievable Jim.



I absolutely hate trying to remove paint from repainted bikes. I will usually pass on the house painted bikes all together because it’s usually an insane amount of time with usually not great results. But, this one started turning out pretty good, so I went nuts on it. Definitely pleased with the end result. If anyone has a lead on rough maroon fenders, let me know please.


----------



## Jim sciano

Miq said:


> Great work @Jim sciano !!  Unreal how much usable paint was left underneath.  😎
> 
> You bet @Wards Guy.. Lots of cool New World transformations lately.  🤩



Thanks. Definitely a fair amount of paint left. But, it also helps that the color of rust isn’t too far off from the maroon color. Lol.


----------



## RustyHornet

Jim sciano said:


> Ok, I am definitely surprised to see how the paint turned out, especially with how thick the silver was. Probably would have been a little better but they lightly sanded before painting silver. I think most of the parts I swapped are period correct. Pedals are what I had laying around. I would not have done this unless you guys pointed out the one year frame. Only a few letters left of the schwinn new world decal but still cool to see something there. Few before during and after pics. View attachment 1422444
> View attachment 1422451
> 
> View attachment 1422454
> 
> View attachment 1422445
> 
> View attachment 1422446
> 
> View attachment 1422447
> 
> View attachment 1422449
> 
> View attachment 1422448



That is awesome and gives me motivation to do mine! If you don’t mind saying how you removed the paint???


----------



## Jim sciano

RustyHornet said:


> That is awesome and gives me motivation to do mine! If you don’t mind saying how you removed the paint???



Acetone but it all depends on the kind of paint. I have tried acetone on other house painted bikes and it hasn’t touched it. It happened to work on this silver paint though.


----------



## Wards Guy..

Hey guy's, does anyone have the correct seat for a 40 extra in their pile of cool old parts?? If not I will go to the wanted pages.😎thanks


----------



## RustyHornet

Got another one to add to the registry! Picked this one up today for parts. I need the rear fender brace, seat is pending. I’m keeping the head badge for now. Figured I’d post it here first, everything else is up for grabs.

Rear blackout hub is super nice, rear wheel paint is rough, front wheel paint is pretty nice but the hub is lacking a lot of black paint, blackout crankset, bars, neck appears to be chromed.

If interested in anything, send me a message. Would prefer pickup, but will ship in lower 48.


----------



## GTs58

RustyHornet said:


> Got another one to add to the registry! Picked this one up today for parts. I need the rear fender brace, seat is pending. I’m keeping the head badge for now. Figured I’d post it here first, everything else is up for grabs.
> 
> Rear blackout hub is super nice, rear wheel paint is rough, front wheel paint is pretty nice but the hub is lacking a lot of black paint, blackout crankset, bars, neck appears to be chromed.
> 
> If interested in anything, send me a message. Would prefer pickup, but will ship in lower 48.
> 
> View attachment 1425271
> 
> View attachment 1425272
> 
> View attachment 1425273
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> 
> View attachment 1425283




Another I series black out with the first EF of the bottom bracket shell. 😎  Is the crank dated?


----------



## RustyHornet

GTs58 said:


> Another I series black out with the first EF of the bottom bracket shell. 😎  Is the crank dated?



I have yet to pull the crank! Will probably get to it this week.


----------



## Miq

Real deal wartime step thru.  🤩  I’m thinking 42.  The single rear mud guard brace is war time only.  You should save the mud guard too, even if you are using the brace.😀  The blackout parts are sweet, especially the ND hub.   Thanks for adding it @RustyHornet!


----------



## RustyHornet

Miq said:


> Real deal wartime step thru.  🤩  I’m thinking 42.  The single rear mud guard brace is war time only.  You should save the mud guard too, even if you are using the brace.😀  The blackout parts are sweet, especially the ND hub.   Thanks for adding it @RustyHornet!



If this bike was complete and in a little better shape, I’d be compelled to save it just because how many can be left? The rear brace is interesting in how it is attached. I will post pictures when I start getting it apart. Hoping others can use some parts off it to get their bikes together. I shall hang the frame up in the shop.


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## RustyHornet

Couldn’t help myself before work this morning... 

first, look at how someone attached the rear brace.


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## Miq

That’s a unique attachment for sure.  😛

It’s great to see a 42 marked crank!  Hard to argue with that. 😎


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## RustyHornet

Might have a bit of a problem... I went to buy another NW tonight... Had to buy a whole collection to get it though....





























Everything else here had to come home too.... Lots to sort through and clean up for sale..... But a 3 speed 2 brake NW!


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## Oilit

RustyHornet said:


> Might have a bit of a problem... I went to buy another NW tonight... Had to buy a whole collection to get it though....
> 
> View attachment 1426723
> 
> View attachment 1426724
> 
> View attachment 1426725
> 
> View attachment 1426726
> 
> View attachment 1426727
> 
> View attachment 1426728
> 
> View attachment 1426729
> 
> Everything else here had to come home too.... Lots to sort through and clean up for sale..... But a 3 speed 2 brake NW!
> 
> View attachment 1426730



And a _pre-war_ three speed New World! Have you cleaned the hub to see if it's dated? And have you looked to see if the rims are marked? Not like you don't have enough to keep you busy 😜.


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## RustyHornet

Oilit said:


> And a _pre-war_ three speed New World! Have you cleaned the hub to see if it's dated? And have you looked to see if the rims are marked? Not like you don't have enough to keep you busy 😜.



I wiped down the hub quick last night before heading in, but wasn’t able to find a date on this hub yet... need to look further when I get to it! And I have not even looked at the rims. What should I be looking for??? I actually went after this one thinking it was a 2 speed based on the one pic I had to go off. I’m not disappointed.


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## 1motime

The first SA hubs were not dated. 1939 and 1940


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## RustyHornet

1motime said:


> The first SA hubs were not dated. 1939 and 1940



Interesting, this serial number falls in the 40-41 range based on the chart here. New piece of information for me. Were these the first SA three speed hubs produced these years?


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## 1motime

RustyHornet said:


> Interesting, this serial number falls in the 40-41 range based on the chart here. New piece of information for me. Were these the first SA three speed hubs produced these years?



I think the first SA 3 speed hub was made in 1939.  Years right up to the war were not dated.  Just stamped AW


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## Oilit

1motime said:


> 9I think the first SA 3 speed hub was made in 1939.  Years right up to the war were not dated.  Just stamped AW



The pre-war hubs weren't dated with the month and year like the post-war bikes, but they did have a mark for the year, a single digit beside the "AW", I've seen "AW9" (1939) and "AW0" (1940). But some made around the war years weren't dated at all. In this thread, check posts #78, #356 and #309 for examples. I think @GTs58 said the earliest post-war example he's seen with a date was from 1947. Sturmey-Archer may have halted production altogether during the war, but then again maybe not, depending on whether the British government saw enough need. I don't really know.


----------



## RustyHornet

Oilit said:


> The pre-war hubs weren't dated with the month and year like the post-war bikes, but they did have a mark for the year, a single digit beside the "AW", I've seen "AW9" (1939) and "AW0" (1940). But some made around the war years weren't dated at all. In this thread, check posts #78, #356 and #309 for examples. I think @GTs58 said the earliest post-war example he's seen with a date was from 1947. Sturmey-Archer may have halted production altogether during the war, but then again maybe not, depending on whether the British government saw enough need. I don't really know.



I saw a AW0 on mine I think.


----------



## Oilit

RustyHornet said:


> I saw a AW0 on mine I think.



It sounds like it's probably original then. As for the rims, sometimes the manufacturers would stamp their name into the surface, but rust and dirt can make it hard to read, and not all rims were marked. I'm still wondering just when Schwinn started making their own S-6 rims, so I'm curious if there are any markings you can see. If not, oh well.
And the AW hub was introduced not long before the war, but it was just the latest model. Sturmey-Archer produced their first 3 speed hub in 1902, if memory serves. But I don't know of any American bike having them until Schwinn introduced the New World in 1939.


----------



## RustyHornet

Oilit said:


> It sounds like it's probably original then. As for the rims, sometimes the manufacturers would stamp their name into the surface, but rust and dirt can make it hard to read, and not all rims were marked. I'm still wondering just when Schwinn started making their own S-6 rims, so I'm curious if there are any markings you can see. If not, oh well.
> And the AW hub was introduced not long before the war, but it was just the latest model. Sturmey-Archer produced their first 3 speed hub in 1902, if memory serves. But I don't know of any American bike having them until Schwinn introduced the New World in 1939.



Thanks for the info! Really love learning about these lightweights.


----------



## RustyHornet

Gonna hang this one right here for now till I get the hoard cleaned out and gone. Dropped the blackout bars and neck from the ladies bike in it so I have some for it.


----------



## Alan Brase

Nice. Wire fender stays make it pretty early. Amazing these just keep turning up. And many with original paint. I guess I'm such a fan of original paint now to attone for all the bikes I painted as a kid.


----------



## Alan Brase

Some old auto parts store is missing its radiator hose hooks just so the NEW New World has a place of honor? Gates hoses?


----------



## RustyHornet

Alan Brase said:


> Some old auto parts store is missing its radiator hose hooks just so the NEW New World has a place of honor? Gates hoses?



Not sure, was hanging in the garage when we bought the house.


----------



## Miq

@49autocycledeluxe picked up this late J serial wartime VW1M recently.

















Classic VW1M wartime bike with no kickstand and single wire rear mudguard brace, nice collection of blackout parts, and the previous owner removed the War Tires from it.  Too cool @49autocycledeluxe !!  😎

Added @RustyHornet 's new additions to the list along with the bike above and updated @Jim sciano 's C serial notes to reflect the transformation it's undergone.


----------



## RustyHornet

@Miq  thanks for adding those! Life is settling down a little bit this week, so I should be able to get some of those 1942 ladies parts listed for sale. And the men’s bike will be a long term project as I have many more in front of it...


----------



## Jim sciano

Well folks, it’s not a new world but I am hoping someone could shed some light on this mystery continental that I picked up. This continental has a decal set that I have never saw before on one of these. The painted fenders is also an oddity as well as the a s & co sprocket. Has a pencil stand and a non dated three speed. Rims are chrome, not stainless. I know the bars and grips are wrong. Seems like it would fall in line as a first year continental but I was wondering if anyone has spotted this style decal on a continental before? A very gentle refurbishing is in order but it’s going to be awhile before I get to it. Can’t wait, I think it’s a pretty odd duck. Reminds me more of a superior than a continental.


----------



## Alan Brase

Jim sciano said:


> Well folks, it’s not a new world but I am hoping someone could shed some light on this mystery continental that I picked up. This continental has a decal set that I have never saw before on one of these. The painted fenders is also an oddity as well as the a s & co sprocket. Has a pencil stand and a non dated three speed. Rims are chrome, not stainless. I know the bars and grips are wrong. Seems like it would fall in line as a first year continental but I was wondering if anyone has spotted this style decal on a continental before? A very gentle refurbishing is in order but it’s going to be awhile before I get to it. Can’t wait, I think it’s a pretty odd duck. Reminds me more of a superior than a continental.View attachment 1452276
> 
> View attachment 1452278
> 
> View attachment 1452277
> 
> View attachment 1452279
> 
> View attachment 1452280
> 
> View attachment 1452281



Yes, wow, so similar to a Superior. Serial number I'd guess to be 1945. Flat fender stays also fit the same years.  Can you make out any color on the box lining (striping)? Looks gold? Does anybody wash with CLR? CLR did a great job bringing back some color to my original paint VW from 1955. Seems there was more color under the rust than I expected. Then you have to seal it, of course. Car wax would be my choice.


----------



## mr.cycleplane

Piece for piece it looks exactly like a New World except the head badge and downtube decal!



 I must be missing something.


----------



## Alan Brase

It DOES look a lot like a New World. Differences are subtle but important. The Round decal at the bottom of the seat tubes says something like "Genuine Seamless Steel Tubing" , The frame is totally brass fillet brazed,  the bottom bracket is the lighter 3 piece cottered style and the stem is pretty special. Possibly they had different rims and hubs, too. Seat clamp is a separate part.
Thing is, the New World was a bike that dealers and customers could custom order so almost any of those could be optional on a New World, (except the special steel brazed frame.) And they probably made 100 times as many New worlds as Continentals and even less Superiors. All these lightweight Schwinns were a bit of a new marketing direction for the company starting in 1938 and Schwinn getting serious about international racing, especially track and the olympics.


----------



## Miq

That’s an interesting bike @Jim sciano   There are a lot of post war looking parts like the kickstand, fender braces, and separate seat clamp like Alan mentioned. We have seen some K serial New Worlds in the late war time era but we have never seen a 3 piece crank K serial with only four numbers. 

The fillet welded frame with 3 piece crank set and multi-gear hub is sweet. That’s going to be a great riding bike when you are done. 😎.


----------



## rennfaron

Mystery solved over here - https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/old-continentals-what-do-i-do-with-them.166448/page-7#post-1320281


----------



## Jim sciano

Very cool. Must be a early one. Even the catalog cover says advance information. Mid to late 46 must be when the standard decal set was the norm. Pretty cool


----------



## rennfaron

I don't know the full history of that catalog but my research states that the "advanced information" label was added on later by the reproducer. It was based off an actual catalog, but the cover was not what was issued in 1946. The internals are authentic though. 

From a seller selling quite a few of these years back:
"Reprinted Vintage & Rare 1946 Advance Information Post-War Arnold, Schwinn Built Bicycles Bike Dealer Catalog. In 1946 Schwinn sent out a special catalog to bicycle dealers that described what was to come. This catalog was perhaps the most verbose catalog Schwinn had made and it explained both it's pre-war technology and it's post war offerings and features. The factory of Arnold, Schwinn & Company, the largest producer of bicycles in America, has been expanded through the war years. New equipment, tools, and machinery have been installed. As a result not only will the high quality for which Schwinn-built bicycles were famous pre-war, be still better, but nearly twice as many bicycles will be produced daily. Schwinn leadership assures you volume and profit. Get your copy here! Perfect replica for any shop or Scwhinn enthusiast!!"


----------



## rennfaron

1939 Schwinn New World Racer - Serial is C2314 (1939?)

Bought this mainly to document, add it to the list and pull some parts for a better example I have. I initially thought the color was black but in the light it is a strange dark green metallic (I have a late 40s green NW and this seems much darker). You can see in the BB shot. Interesting ND 2 speed setup. Hub isn't black out, but the shifter and jockey are. Maybe add-ons or swap outs a couple years later... No evidence of any striping or decals (repaint long ago? - paint looks very old). Typical NW head badge. No fenders since this was a racer. No kick stand either. Interesting Stewart Warner Racer Speedo. I can't tell what the rims are because of the rust but will update if I de-rust'em. Good Year rear and a Pharis front tires. Has the same stem and crank/chain ring pictured in this 1940 brochure.


----------



## Miq

Cool rear forked racer @rennfaron!  Could be a 39.  The two speed ND rear hub has not shown up on these bikes as far as I can tell. Wardsguy has a dark green 1940 with a two speed Bendix on the list.  There are definitely some nice parts to use on your other bikes.  I love seeing another old racer on the list.  Thank you for sharing it.


----------



## Miq

Added @rennfaron 's C serial racer to the *Prewar List*:

ContributorYearSerial
NumberEF BB or NOTWire or Bar BracesBlackout
PartsRear Fork
or DropoutsNotes:pelletman1939B38915NOTNoneNORear ForkWhite New World Racer.bikepaulie1939C05696NOTWireNORear ForkBraced handlebarsJim sciano1939C24707NOTNoneNORear ForkMaroon mens survivor with one piece crank, homemade front fender, silver overpaint removed to reveal OG paint, decal remnants, and New World Circle Front Badge. Great paint and chrome revival by Jim.Oilit1939-40C2180NOTNoneNORear ForkBlack New World Racer, with 3 piece crank, hand stamped serial, wooden wheels and drop bars. eBay Listingrennfaron1939-40C2314NOTNoneYes (Shifter)Rear ForkVery Dark Green? New World Racer with 3 piece crank, star chain ring, hand stamped serial, 2-Speed ND coaster hub, is blackout shifter an add on? no fenders, no kickstand, Stewart Warner Racer speedolocomotion1939-40C2702NOTNoneNORear ForkLight Blue New World Racer W3Rrennfaron1939-40C2945NOTNoneNORear ForkWhite Liberty badged New World Racer with black pin stripes, 3 piece crank, AS&Co chainring, Dural hubs, wooden rims,ccdc.11939-40C3181NOTNoneNORear ForkBlue New World Racer, with 3 piece crank, hand stamped serial, wooden wheels and drop bars. In Bob Freeman's collection.Gary Eye1939-40C3700NOTNoneNORear ForkBlue New World Racer, just frame and fork.bricycle1940D2327NOTWireNORear Dropouts3 Speed with coaster, AS&Co chainring, 3 piece crank, maroon paint, gold decals and pinstripes, white painted wheels, front hand brake, no saddle. Ryobi powered project bike.
Dropouts started in 1940 on New World frames.Champy1940D2629NOTNoneNORear DropoutsRacer with 3 piece crank, red with white wheels, war time tires, New Departure hubDarj1940D2733NOTNoneNORear DropoutsWhite Racer with all original equipment including 3 piece crank and 1" pitch Star Chainring, OG Persons Track Racer saddle, wooden rims, pin stripes and decals visible, custom bent diadrant fork.Nigelshaffer1940D2940NOTNoneNORear DropoutsWhite racer with 3 piece crank, Dural hubs, steel 27 1/4" rims, fork lockmr. cycleplane1940D3099NOTWireNORear DropoutsThree piece crank, gorgeous maroon paint and gold pinstripes and decals, "World - Pat Feb 1939" stamped Mesinger saddle. New Departure Small Arm Brake and front hub. 21" W3M model.rennfaron1940D3181NOTBlackKramai881940D3760NOTRestored with
BarNORear DropoutsRestored maroon men's bike with 3 piece crank, AS&Co chainring, serial number is a little hard to read under new paint, but the original owner wrote it down as D3760.rennfaron1940D4065NOTBlack1motime1940D4607NOTWireNORear DropoutsThree piece crank, matress saddle, 3 speed Sturmey and hand brakesJon Olson1940D5123NOT1939 SlatNORear DropoutsRed step thru with three piece crank, AS&Co chainring, 3 speed Sturmey (AW-0 1940 Date Code), 1939 slat style mudguard braces and hand brakes.vincev1940D5284NOTWireNORear DropoutsMen's maroon paint with Sturmy 3 Speed HubBig Moe1940D5440NOTWireNORear DropoutsRed tourist frame and fork dressed up as a racer w 3 Piece Crank, AS&Co chainring, hockey stick chain guard, drop bars, mudguards.GTs581940D6340NOTWireNORear DropoutsThree piece crank, AS&Co chainring, front/rear hand brakes, matress saddle, red w gold pins/decals.rideahiggins1940D8767NOTWireNORear DropoutsWhite mens with 3-Speed Sturmey rear hub, 3 piece crank, AS&Co 1/2" chainring, front and rear rim brakes, locking fork, OG World Messinger Saddle, OG Paint and some decals. Original and complete.rennfaron1940D11333????WireNO????Black step-thru with cyclelock. Nice paint and decals. Few pics from 2007 eBay auct. to go on.Wards Guy..1940D12430NOTWireNORear DropoutsDark Green mens, Bendix red band 2 speed rear hub, CT razor stem, and boyscout bars, some decals left.rollfaster/Brent1940D43966NOTWireNORear DropoutsMaroon step-thru w rear coaster and English saddle. Great original paint and gold decals including gold hat in ring.arfsaidthebee1940D54422NOTWireYES (Rear Sprocket)Rear DropoutsIs Blackout Rear Sprocket Original?? Blue PaintGTs581940D69242NOTWireNORear DropoutsBlack OG paint and decals w Sturmy 3 Speed, 9 hole rear rack, nice Mesinger F70 saddle, locking fork.rollfaster/Brent1940D98700NOTWireNORear DropoutsMaroon mens bike w rear coaster and English saddle. Great original paint and decals. Brent paired w D43966.GenuineRides1940E14732NOTWireNORear DropoutsBlack men's Unisco badged with Lincoln decales, 3 piece crank, AS&Co Chainring, front and rear caliper brakes, pat pend high flanged hub, and one war tire.ACE1940E16911NOTWireNORear DroupoutsCream step thru with Mesinger saddle, 3 piece crank, hand stamped serial, front/rear hand brakes, big flange rear hub.Iverider1940F52702NOTWireNORear DropoutsLittle Arm ND Brake LeverJim Sciano1940F87335NOTWireNORear DropoutsVery clean white step thru with gold pins and decals, front and rear caliper brakes, high flange hub, and great chrome.manuelvilla1940-41???????????WireNORear DropoutsRed step thru in great condition, ND coaster and one piece crankbikewhorder1940-41?G05608NOTWireNORear DropoutsBlack step thru with one piece crank, multi-speed rear hub, and front hand brake. Crusty OG paint and some decals remaining.RustyHornet1940-41?G10817NOTWireNORear DropoutsBlack mens with 1 piece crank, 3 speed Sturmy, 2 hand brakes, some decals left, project bike.SirMike19831940-41?G29611NOTNoneNORear DropoutsWhite Racer with fluted one piece crank, Lobdell Wood Rims w Red Tires, 24 tooth 1" Pitch 4-Hole Clover Sprocket.Rust_Trader1940-41?G29650NOTWireNORear DropoutsMen's bright red coaster bike with front hand brake, 3 piece Miller kickstand, OG saddle, OG bright red paint and decals, OG saddle. One piece crank, rear reflector, and cycle counter.bikerbluz1941G79444NOTWireNORear DropoutsMens BFG badged, Mussleman rear hub and Schwin script front hub, maroon paint Schwinn cross decal on down tube.jimbo531941H07717NOTWireNORear DropoutsMens black paint with one piece crank, OG Mesinger Saddle, NOS Uniroyal Touring 26 x 1.325 tires, some decals remaining, Miller 3-piece kickstand.Markivpedalpusher1941H20629NOTWireNORear DropoutsBlack men's Chicago Cycle Supply-Lincoln head badged bike. Superior wheels. Original "World" stamped Mesinger saddle. Shiny well preserved OG paint and decals.RustyHornet1941H27026NOTWire Front, Rear Stay ReplacedNORear DropoutsChicago Cycle Supply LaSalle badged men's bike with front hand brake, one piece crank, Miller 3 piece stand, OG Mesinger saddle, rear mudguard stay replaced, red paint removal project bike.HARPO1941H27279NOTWireNORear DropoutsBlack Men's with one piece crank. Not original wheels, fork, and crank. As found.C M Gerlach1941H32262NOT1939 SlatNORear DropoutsMaroon Mens Champion head badged bike with once piece crank and 1939 looking "slat" mudguard braces. Great chrome, paint and decals, 3-piece miller kickstand, spedometer and rocket light.arfsaidthebee1941H53984NOTWireNORear Dropouts19" Men's Frame, OG Blue Paint and some decals, 2 wire rear and single wire front mudguard braces, Schwinn English saddle.DaveZ1941H63906NOTWireNORear DropoutsSA 3sp, quadrant shifter, Front & Rear calipers, Blue with gold pinstriping; but the PS is goneMiq1941H69537NOTWireNORear DropoutsBFG badged, ND Big Arm = Brake Lever, No War Tires


*Wartime and Post War List:*

ContributorYearSerial
NumberEF BB or NOTWire or Bar BracesBlackout
PartsRear Fork
or DropoutsNotes:Just Jeff1942?I01101NOTWireYESRear DropoutsRed men's with blackout bottom bracket bearing cups, OG saddle, cycle counter, coaster hub, hat in ring decal, gold pinstripes, large rear sprocket, art deco chain guard, and Miller kickstand.Just Jeff1942?I07615EF BBWireYESRear DropoutsGreen Men's with blackout bottom bracket hardware, blkout braces, OG saddle, 1 piece crank, AS&CO chainring, Schwinn Built hand brakes.coryplayford_20091942?I08406NOTWireNORear DropoutsBlack OG paint step thru.HUFFMANBILL1942?I14584NOTWire (1 Rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsRed men's New World, 3-piece crank, fillet brazed, blackout pedals, cranks, AS&Co chain ring, mudguard braces, stem, and bars. Painted rims, 1 wire braced rear mudguard. Victory Bike.crazyhawk1942?I23545NOTWireNORear Dropouts"War Tire" Marked Tiressbusiello1942?I32123EF BBWireNORear DropoutsBlack mens bike in rough shape. No front mudguard.Cjric1942?I32984EF BBWireYES (Braces)Rear DropoutsMaroon ladies Kalamazoo Supercycle badged bike with 2 speed New Departure D hub, front hand brake, basket, Blkout braces, decals.cptnhwdy691942?I35788EF BBWireYES (Braces)Rear DropoutsBlue men's, 1 piece crank, Blkout BracesSiestabikes1942?I35968EF BBWireNORear DropoutsBlack paint with great OG pinstriping, seat tube is EF to BB but not down tube or chain stays.Barnegatbicycles1942I52046EF BBNoneYESRear DropoutsBlack mens bike with blackout Big Arm = Brake ND Coaster, blackout sprocket, pedals, and crank hardware, no mudguards or chainguard.GTs581942I55102EF BBNoneYES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsNice red wartime w Blackout Big Arm = Brake ND, front hub, both sprockets, & handlebars. Excelsior Badged, w nice Mesinger B-70W Seat, OG paint and some decals.koolkatz1942I74208EFBBWireYes (Hubs)Rear DropoutsRear bar mudguard stays look like replacements. Blackout Hubs including Big Arm=Brake ND Coaster. Mens maroon paint.Cooper S1942I75766EF BBNoneYES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsMaroon paint, no chainguard or mudguards, Cad plated cranks and front sproket, 23" Frame.HUFFMANBILL1942I76127EF BBWire (1 Front)
(1 rear)YES (A lot)Rear DropoutsLaSalle badged black men's VW1M coaster with blackout hubs, bars, chainring, and pedals. No chain guard. Has Miller kickstand. Beautiful decals and paint. 1942 Traverse City, MI original.RustyHornet1942I77707EF BBWire (1 rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsCadillac badged black step thru parts bike. Blackout front & rear hubs, chainring, and bars. Cream painted rims, OG saddle. 42 date stampped crank.HUFFMANBILL1942I86960EF BBWire (1 Front)
(1 rear)YES (A lot)Rear DropoutsBlack men's VW1M coaster with blackout hubs, bars, chainring. No chain guard and no kickstand. Victory "V" marked Schwinn Whirlwind Sport Touring tires. Unrestored OG decals and paint.bobcycles1942-44???????????Wire (1 Rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsLobdell Saddle has V Stamp (Victory)Kramai881942-44?J01687EF BBWire (1 rear)
Bar (1 front)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsBFG badged with post war badge, Maroon men's 21" frame. Black out ND Big Arm = Brake, front hub, Miller kickstand and headset. Mixture of two different colored rims.rennfaron1942-44?J07596EF BBWire (1 Front)
(1 rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsBlack men's 23" with blackout levers, calipers, crank cones, wald pedals, seat clamp bolt, fender braces, seat post (hard to tell but the black coating looks to be there), and front schwinn hub. Markings of original 2 speed shifter and hub are present. War TIre marked Whirlwinds. OG Saddle and colorful decals.arfsaidthebee1942-44?J08200EF BBWire (1 Rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsBlkout Handlebars, Braces, chainring and rear hub (Big Arm = Brake ND), 23" Frame, "War Tire" Marked Tires, Black Paint1936PEDALER1942-44?J09172EF BBWire (1 Rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsBlack mens Century badged Baltimore (Consolidated) Gas and Electric Co. victory bike. Blackout ND Model D Coaster, Skiptooth chain, threaded bottom bracket drain plug, Lobdell victory V saddle, painted rims, hat in ring decal and pin stripes. Gas & Electric Co top tube and rear mudguard artwork, one piece crank, single rear mudguard brace and shorty mudguard. Old flashlight with handlbar holder and speedo.Capt Nemo1942-44?J09514EF BBWireYES (Cranks)Rear DropoutsLots of EF frame constructionmickeyc1942-44?J12476EF BBWireYES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsMissing rear fendersAlan Brase1942-44?J99657EF BBWireUnknownRear DropoutsFrame, Fork, and Mudguards Only, vertical badge holes49autocycledeluxe1942-44?J99807EF BBWire (1 Rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsBlack mens VW1M with blackout ND hubs and cranks, Lobdell painted rims with pinstripes, no kickstand or mudguard, previous owner removed War tires.HUFFMANBILL1942-45?K38166EF BBWire (1 Front)
(1 rear)YES (A lot)Rear DropoutsBlack step thru VW1L coaster with blackout hubs, headset, and chainring. No chain guard. "War Tire" marked tires. Nice unrestored OG paint and decals. Has Miller kickstand.GenuineRides1942-45?K38400EF BB??YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsFrame OnlyCasual dreamer1942-45?K41422EF BBWire (1 Front)
(1 rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsBlack men's VW1M coaster with blackout Big Arm=Brake ND rear hub, crank, sprocket, head set, cream mudguards, 1944 SMBL license, rear rack, Lobdell Victory saddle, has a Miller kickstand & chainguard, OG paint and decalsJPKelley51942-45?K42380EF BBWire (1 Front)
(1 rear)YES (Hub)Rear DropoutsStep thru VW1L coaster with blackout ND rear hub, no chain guard. Dark blue paint with decals still visible. Rowlett's FOX - Richmond, VA headbadge. No kickstand. EF seat tube to BB.orangewill1942-45?K47317EF BBWire (1 Rear)YesRear DropoutsMussleman Model M Hubbikepaulie1942-45?K49224EF BBWire (1 Rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsLadies w lots of BlackoutDoodsie1942-45?K56142EF BBWire (1 Rear)YESRear DropoutsMen's black VW1M coaster with blackout ND rear hub, black out front hub, no chain guard, shortie rear mudguard with one wire brace, no kickstand, blackout bars. Used by Customs Inspector at the Port of Tampa. Custom yellow paint "Cust Inspt" and "No.2" artwork on mudguards.3-speeder1942-45?K57044EF BBBar (1 Rear)YES (A Lot)Rear DropoutsMixmaster Bike, Q4 of 1942 (L4) Morrow Date Codesace1942-45?K58947EF BBNoneYesRear DropoutsMaroon men's parts bike with British Radnall's caliper brakes, no chain guard, no kickstand, no mudguards, blackout headset pieces. Sturmy multi-speed hub. OG paint and some decals left.classiccycleus1945???????????Bar (2 Rear)
(2 Front)YES (A Lot)Rear Dropouts3-piece crank, 2 Rear braces attach to eyelet, ND 2 Speed, 2 Front Bar Braces is unique, Front Drum BrakeJohnSwartz1946?I43215EF BB??UnknownRear DropoutsEyelets for rear braces, just bare frameschwinnlax1946?B45115EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear Dropouts2 Rear braces attach to eyelet, 21" Frame maroon bike w some decals on Minneapolis Craig's Listvincev1946?B61848EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear DropoutsMaroon Ladies w Schwinn rear kids seat. Rear braces attach to eyelet.whopperchopper1947?C05489EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear Dropouts2 Rear braces attach to eyeletSirMike19831947C81661EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear Dropouts3-piece crank, 2 Rear braces attach to eyelet, multi-gear modOilit1947-48?D19494EF BBNoneNORear DropoutsRed Mens with 3-piece crank, AS&CO Chainring, No Date Sturmey 3 speed. OG Paint and Decals, John's Bicycles Pasadena, LA CO G Stamp.SalorBenjamin1948E20071EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear Dropouts2 Rear braces attach to eyeletarfsaidthebee1948E20400EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear Dropouts2 Rear braces attach to eyelet, blue paint, project bike74porsche9141948E21390EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear DropoutsRed Mens 21"Frame. ND Coaster bike has nice OG paint with some decals, great looking chrome, and original saddle.rollfaster1948E22876EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear Dropouts2 Rear braces attach to eyelet, OG black paint and decals, stainless rims, one piece crank, coasterHARPO1948-49?E41183EF BBNoneNORear DropoutsRed mens's with multi-speed SA hub dated 49-1, BB serial is ~Sept 48, 1 piece crank, no mudguards, front hand caliper brake, Stainless Steel rims, nice OG paint and decalsarfsaidthebee1948-49?E60020EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear Dropouts2 Rear braces attach to eyelet, bought from Larmo63, Maroon paint, BB serial is ~Sept 48Bozman1948-49?E162095EF BBBar (2 Rear)NORear DropoutsEF BB but chain stays are NOT EF, 2 Rear braces attach to eyelet, orig blue ladiesOilit1949F091435EF BBNoneNoRear DropoutsBlack Mens with 3 Speed Sturmey (49 Date Coded), Paramount front hub, OG paint and decals, Wise Lock, no mudguards or chainguard.Gavin1949S312751EF BBNoneNORear DropoutsMaroon men’s bike with 3 speed Sturmey (49-4) hub, BB has bell stamps next to Nov 4 stamped serial number, no mudguards.

Trying a more simple cut and paste format for the lists.


----------



## Miq

Also wanted to document in this thread @cyclingday 's war time ads from here.  I have not seen these before. 

cyclingday wrote:
"The Defense model only seems to have been built during the 1st quarter of 1942.
All of the prewar options were still available except for the items imported from England.
The most notable difference on the Defense model from the prewar model is the use of the Standard Schwinn headset, instead of the newer precision 1940 type.
I don’t see why this change would’ve been made unless the supply ran out.
The only blackout parts used during this period was the bottom bracket cup/hardware and the wire fender braces.
Otherwise it was full chrome as usual.
It seems like sometime in April or May, that the decisions were made to ration the materials, or enough time to run out the existing supply of prewar production materials, had been made, that the limitations and rationing began to occur."

"Defense Model" W3MFC from early 1942:




This one for the VW1M "Victory" New World from Sept. 1942:





I wonder if any of the very early I serial New Worlds on our list are Defense Model bikes?  This one of @Just Jeff 's fits the bill with only blackout BB cups:




or his similar green one with blackout BB cups and mudguard braces:




or this blue one with blackout braces of @cptnhwdy69



These 3 would have been W*1*MFC with the one piece crank option right?

The bikes that came after these on the list have blackout hubs and other parts that make me think they had switched to making the Victory War Model.  Thanks for filling in more of the story @cyclingday !


----------



## GTs58

@Miq  Is there a way to keep the size down making it the same as the old list? I had to reduce down to 50%. No big deal if not, I'm just lazy and don't like scrolling.  😜


----------



## Miq

Not sure @GTs58   I didn’t see a lot of options when I pasted it in. im not really happy with how it looks either. I’ll probably just go back to my old method next time.


----------



## Alan Brase

Miq said:


> Not sure @GTs58   I didn’t see a lot of options when I pasted it in. im not really happy with how it looks either. I’ll probably just go back to my old method next time.



Thanks for your work on this, the NewWorld Family Tree.


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## GTs58

Alan Brase said:


> Thanks for your work on this, the NewWorld Family Tree.




It's that and a lot more! It's part of Schwinn's history with their advancements and improvements in building bikes.


----------



## Just Jeff

The list of bikes and the collection of knowledge keeps getting better. Loving the war time ads

Also, I’m surprised mine bike is still the lowest serial number of the wartime units


----------



## SirMike1983

This chart is a very important resource in documenting these bicycles. Our knowledge was more limited prior to this chart as to where particular serial numbers might fall, when features were changed, etc.  What this chart does is much more reliably allow one to put a date on a New World bicycle, know when features changed, etc. The chart has become a kind of "bible" for these bikes, as far as I am concerned. They were somewhat of a backwater in knowledge and collecting, even 10 years ago. 

Previously the most you might be able to get out of a bike was prewar/wartime/postwar, and perhaps pin down to within a couple years, though not necessarily easily so because of the pre-1948 serial number issues. Schwinn's documentation was not always helpful because with Schwinn, it's hard to tell where the ad copy stopped and information began. A feature on a bike might be touted as going "back to 1938", when in fact it was the general model that existed back in 1938, not the feature itself. If there's a course on the history of successful marketing, Schwinn could be studied as part of it. They spent their ad dollars well in those days.

I have a couple corrections for my black post-war New World. I think they're just typos in the chart. It is a "one-piece" skiptooth and not a three piece crank. It originally had a single speed freewheel (large "phone dial" type). The multigear mod part is correct - it has a set of late 40s Continental wheels now (a worthwhile improvement).


----------



## cyclingday

I just took delivery of this 1942 Defense Model. 







It’s a BF Goodrich standard trim bike.
I haven’t unpacked it yet, so I don’t have the serial number info yet.
I’ll update this post once I have that info.
I’m curious to see where this one falls in the line up.


----------



## GTs58

cyclingday said:


> I just took delivery of this 1942 Defense Model.
> View attachment 1464346
> View attachment 1464347
> It’s a BF Goodrich standard trim bike.
> I haven’t unpacked it yet, so I don’t have the serial number info yet.
> I’ll update this post once I have that info.
> I’m curious to see where this one falls in the line up.




I would venture to say that was most likely an early 1942 build before any government restrictions were imposed or utilized. And probably an I series before the BB's I serials showed up with an electro-forge shell. Looks like a well cared for original example. Is that coming from Kentucky?


----------



## cyclingday

I’m thinking the same thing, and yes, this was another choice offering from BadBob.
I was able to get it unpacked today, and take a look at the serial number.
It’s a later issue than I thought it would be, but still right in that early 42 realm.



























So, the blackout parts are the saddle chassis and seatpost, the crank hardware, and the fender braces.
The adjusting cone on the headset is also blackout, but the cups and top nut are chrome.
The rims are chrome Lobdell.
The hubs are chrome, New Departure, model D coaster brake, and Schwinn script small flange front.
The stem and pedals are Wald.
Chrome, Torrington sports tourist handlebar with Schwinn script grips.
BF Goodrich headbadge.
I thought the color was Coach Green, but now that I see it in person, I’m thinking that it’s actually the Brewster Green, with Gold pin stripes, that is listed in the 1941 Schwinn Lightweight color chart.


----------



## Miq

That looks in great shape. Super color and the feather guard make it look nice for standard trim.  Looking forward to seeing more when you unpack it.


----------



## Miq

Alan Brase said:


> Thanks for your work on this, the NewWorld Family Tree.






GTs58 said:


> It's that and a lot more! It's part of Schwinn's history with their advancements and improvements in building bikes.






Just Jeff said:


> The list of bikes and the collection of knowledge keeps getting better.






SirMike1983 said:


> This chart is a very important resource in documenting these bicycles. Our knowledge was more limited prior to this chart as to where particular serial numbers might fall, when features were changed, etc.  What this chart does is much more reliably allow one to put a date on a New World bicycle, know when features changed, etc. The chart has become a kind of "bible" for these bikes, as far as I am concerned. They were somewhat of a backwater in knowledge and collecting, even 10 years ago.




You guys are great!  We did this together. Thanks to all of the CABE members that contributed to this, we have a useful and evolving way to piece together this difficult to understand part of Schwinn history.  I knew almost nothing about these bikes when I started the thread.  I know we will continue to see new examples and learn more about them. 😊

Now a sticky thread, so it will be easy to find.


----------



## Miq

SirMike1983 said:


> I have a couple corrections for my black post-war New World. I think they're just typos in the chart. It is a "one-piece" skiptooth and not a three piece crank. It originally had a single speed freewheel (large "phone dial" type). The multigear mod part is correct - it has a set of late 40s Continental wheels now (a worthwhile improvement).




I think I got it right now.  Back to the old format:


----------



## GTs58

A big thanks to the one(s) involved in making this thread a sticky! 👍


----------



## Miq

@cyclingday that Brewster Green beauty sits right next to one of the other Defense Model bikes on the list.  @cptnhwdy69's blue bike.  🙂


----------



## GTs58

That is really a neat shade of Green @cyclingday ! New addition for the rare color thread?


----------



## Jim sciano

Good afternoon gents, I have two more New World submissions. The first one definitely has me puzzled, so I would love to hear your ideas/thoughts/knowledge on this guy. Appears to be a 39 New World racer based on the serial, but it has rear dropouts and not rear forks as well as a non EF bottom bracket? I think their has been some changes made. I am not noticing any marks to indicate a coaster brake arm strap. The bicycle has the original dealer sticker as well as the dealer association decal on the rim that is also identifying the same dealer. The gentleman that I purchased it from said that the rear rim was damaged when he got the many moons ago and had found a nice condition rear rim and swapped that in. Hubs are both schwinn script dural. I am assuming the stem is probably wrong? Seat, I am thinking could be correct. He saved the original rear tire that was on the damaged rear wheel. So I do have the matching set of 28” tires that still hold air and are soft. Any thoughts on the crank? Does not appear to be schwinn. 

The second submission seems to be your fairly standard 47 model, which ironically is also a C serial but with a EF bottom bracket of course. Incorrect but nice jeweled grips. Also appears the the crank has been replaced with a 60’s style crank?


----------



## RustyHornet

Jim sciano said:


> Good afternoon gents, I have two more New World submissions. The first one definitely has me puzzled, so I would love to hear your ideas/thoughts/knowledge on this guy. Appears to be a 39 New World racer based on the serial, but it has rear dropouts and not rear forks as well as a non EF bottom bracket? I think their has been some changes made. I am not noticing any marks to indicate a coaster brake arm strap. The bicycle has the original dealer sticker as well as the dealer association decal on the rim that is also identifying the same dealer. The gentleman that I purchased it from said that the rear rim was damaged when he got the many moons ago and had found a nice condition rear rim and swapped that in. Hubs are both schwinn script dural. I am assuming the stem is probably wrong? Seat, I am thinking could be correct. He saved the original rear tire that was on the damaged rear wheel. So I do have the matching set of 28” tires that still hold air and are soft. Any thoughts on the crank? Does not appear to be schwinn.
> 
> The second submission seems to be your fairly standard 47 model, which ironically is also a C serial but with a EF bottom bracket of course. Incorrect but nice jeweled grips. Also appears the the crank has been replaced with a 60’s style crank? View attachment 1467833
> View attachment 1467834
> 
> View attachment 1467838
> 
> View attachment 1467841
> 
> View attachment 1467840
> 
> View attachment 1467839
> 
> View attachment 1467854
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> View attachment 1467856
> 
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> 
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> View attachment 1467845
> 
> View attachment 1467844
> 
> View attachment 1467843
> View attachment 1467857
> 
> View attachment 1467848
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> 
> View attachment 1467850
> 
> View attachment 1467851
> 
> View attachment 1467852
> 
> View attachment 1467853
> 
> View attachment 1467836
> 
> View attachment 1467842



WOW! Those are incredible! Nice finds! Thank you for sharing.


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## Oilit

Like you said, the maroon bike looks pretty standard, are the rims stainless? I can't tell about the crank, Schwinn marked the year on some of their cranks so that might be worth checking. As for the black bike, I would have to do some homework before I could even comment, but it's fascinating and in really nice shape! Thanks for the pictures!


----------



## Jim sciano

Oilit said:


> Like you said, the maroon bike looks pretty standard, are the rims stainless? I can't tell about the crank, Schwinn marked the year on some of their cranks so that might be worth checking. As for the black bike, I would have to do some homework before I could even comment, but it's fascinating and in really nice shape! Thanks for the pictures!



Regular rims, not stainless. I can pull the crank but I am sure it’s 60’s which I’m sure it’s dated. When you get a chance, I am curious to hear what you think about the black bike. Thanks, Jim


----------



## rennfaron

Jim sciano said:


> Good afternoon gents, I have two more New World submissions. The first one definitely has me puzzled, so I would love to hear your ideas/thoughts/knowledge on this guy. Appears to be a 39 New World racer based on the serial, but it has rear dropouts and not rear forks as well as a non EF bottom bracket? I think their has been some changes made. I am not noticing any marks to indicate a coaster brake arm strap. The bicycle has the original dealer sticker as well as the dealer association decal on the rim that is also identifying the same dealer. The gentleman that I purchased it from said that the rear rim was damaged when he got the many moons ago and had found a nice condition rear rim and swapped that in. Hubs are both schwinn script dural. I am assuming the stem is probably wrong? Seat, I am thinking could be correct. He saved the original rear tire that was on the damaged rear wheel. So I do have the matching set of 28” tires that still hold air and are soft. Any thoughts on the crank? Does not appear to be schwinn.
> 
> The second submission seems to be your fairly standard 47 model, which ironically is also a C serial but with a EF bottom bracket of course. Incorrect but nice jeweled grips. Also appears the the crank has been replaced with a 60’s style crank?



On the racer - Hard to find Persons Majestic saddle which came standard on the NW racers. All of the NW racers I have seen that were still in original condition have these. I wonder if the wood wheels were swapped out from what originally came on there. It doesn't look like a brand they would have sourced. I have a late 30s racer with wood wheels and they are lobdell. Although both hubs look consistent from what is on mine (maybe swapped them from the originals...). Crank looks different than I have seen, mine is 3-piece. Stem is swapped. Bars look swapped, different geometry than the earlier ones (shown in pic). Could be consistent with later bars though, but still look different.  Nice torrington No. 7 pedals. All the early ones I have seen came with Torrington 4-star racer pedals. The No. 7s were found more on the tourist models (from what I know).


----------



## SirMike1983

On the black one, perhaps an earlier shell connected to a somewhat later frame? If the shells were pre-made and in a bin in the shop, maybe this one took longer than some of the others to make it onto a frame. It has some 1940-41 features like the drop outs, but with a little earlier serial. I have seen pre-war New World tourist type models with the seamless shell but one-piece crank. They were "H" serials, if I recall.


----------



## Oilit

Jim sciano said:


> Regular rims, not stainless. I can pull the crank but I am sure it’s 60’s which I’m sure it’s dated. When you get a chance, I am curious to hear what you think about the black bike. Thanks, Jim



I've never had a bike with wooden rims, all I know about them is what I've read on the CABE. I did notice that the address on the frame is different than the one on the rim, I looked on Google Street View and there's a building at the  2506 N. 35th St. address that could have been the shop, and there's another at the 4322 W. Center St. address (If I'm reading that right), and they're not very far apart, so it looks like it was indeed the same shop, but they moved at some point between when the bike was bought and when the decal was put on the rim. But I'm wondering if replacing wood rims might have been a common practice back in the day? Wood is strong and stable when it's dry, but considering the conditions a bike could be used in, there are lots of ways a rim could get damaged, and changing the rims might have been something that an owner just expected to do every few years. On the other hand, whoever had your bike obviously took care of it. This is all out of my field and I'm just speculating, but that's an interesting bike you've got there, lots of food for thought.


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## rennfaron

Oilit said:


> I've never had a bike with wooden rims, all I know about them is what I've read on the CABE. I did notice that the address on the frame is different than the one on the rim, I looked on Google Street View and there's a building at the  2506 N. 35th St. address that could have been the shop, and there's another at the 4322 W. Center St. address (If I'm reading that right), and they're not very far apart, so it looks like it was indeed the same shop, but they moved at some point between when the bike was bought and when the decal was put on the rim. But I'm wondering if replacing wood rims might have been a common practice back in the day? Wood is strong and stable when it's dry, but considering the conditions a bike could be used in, there are lots of ways a rim could get damaged, and changing the rims might have been something that an owner just expected to do every few years. On the other hand, whoever had your bike obviously took care of it. This is all out of my field and I'm just speculating, but that's an interesting bike you've got there, lots of food for thought.



I think you were going where I was and the wood hoops/rims were swapped at a different time. I assume that would be the reason they put the sticker/decal there, to "claim" ownership of that work... Good detective work. 

On a racer you might have an owner that is more particular about what they want to ride on. Like today riders are particular about their components. That could have been a reason. 🤷‍♂️ If one of the original wheels had issues I would assume they would replace just one. Seems more like a personal preference decision or something occurred to cause replacement of both (to your point about a lot of different ways wheels could get damaged).


----------



## Jim sciano

Thanks for the input guys. The guy that I purchased it from, definitely had the rear rim replaced. He claimed that the rear rim was damaged when he got it and said that it was identical to the front. The one that he had to replace it with, that is currently on the bike is slightly different and I do not see any label or markings. But still, hard to say that it was identical solely based on his word. Either way, I am definitely happy to own it. The racer models are definitely not my strong suit.


----------



## GTs58

Jim sciano said:


> Good afternoon gents, I have two more New World submissions. The first one definitely has me puzzled, so I would love to hear your ideas/thoughts/knowledge on this guy. Appears to be a 39 New World racer based on the serial, but it has rear dropouts and not rear forks as well as a non EF bottom bracket? I think their has been some changes made. I am not noticing any marks to indicate a coaster brake arm strap. The bicycle has the original dealer sticker as well as the dealer association decal on the rim that is also identifying the same dealer. The gentleman that I purchased it from said that the rear rim was damaged when he got the many moons ago and had found a nice condition rear rim and swapped that in. Hubs are both schwinn script dural. I am assuming the stem is probably wrong? Seat, I am thinking could be correct. He saved the original rear tire that was on the damaged rear wheel. So I do have the matching set of 28” tires that still hold air and are soft. Any thoughts on the crank? Does not appear to be schwinn.
> 
> The second submission seems to be your fairly standard 47 model, which ironically is also a C serial but with a EF bottom bracket of course. Incorrect but nice jeweled grips. Also appears the the crank has been replaced with a 60’s style crank? View attachment 1467833
> View attachment 1467834
> 
> View attachment 1467838
> 
> View attachment 1467841
> 
> View attachment 1467840
> 
> View attachment 1467839
> 
> View attachment 1467854
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> View attachment 1467852
> 
> View attachment 1467853
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> View attachment 1467836
> 
> View attachment 1467842





This Black Racer is obviously a model year transitional build. Early 1940 model with a 1939 pre stamped BB. The crank was an option for the Racer, one piece 6.5" fluted crank and 1" pitch chain and rings. The one piece shells that were EF started a little bit later with the I series numbers starting in the 30000 range.


----------



## rennfaron

GTs58 said:


> This Black Racer is obviously a model year transitional build. Early 1940 model with a 1939 pre stamped BB. The crank was an option for the Racer, one piece 6.5" fluted crank and 1" pitch chain and rings. The one piece shells that were EF started a little bit later with the I series numbers starting in the 30000 range.



You're right. I didn't take a good look at the other side. This was from a racer that popped up a year or so ago.


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## GTs58

rennfaron said:


> You're right. I didn't take a good look at the other side. This was from a racer that popped up a year or so ago.
> View attachment 1468358View attachment 1468360





Looks like one in the same. Note the seat tube decal and stem.


----------



## Jim sciano

rennfaron said:


> You're right. I didn't take a good look at the other side. This was from a racer that popped up a year or so ago.
> View attachment 1468358View attachment 1468360



Interesting, this does look like the same bike, can even see some of the same decal on the front wheel too. Wonder if the previous owner posted it here.


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## rennfaron

Right again. It could be...
They swapped the stem and bars out then (looked again, same setup, different lighting = same bike) It was listed in Milwaukee at a bike shop, which is really close to Jim. Hopefully the price it was listed at was not paid... $2,000 😬


----------



## Jim sciano

rennfaron said:


> Right again. It could be...
> They swapped the stem and bars out then (looked again, same setup, different lighting = same bike) It was listed in Milwaukee at a bike shop, which is really close to Jim. Hopefully the price it was listed at was not paid... $2,000 😬View attachment 1468369



Haha, rest assured, I didn’t pay anything remotely close. I wonder if the previous owner had it on consignment with that shop? I have had my eyes on this bike for nearly a year, although I never saw it listed at this bike shop. The guy I bought it from had it listed for half of what that bike shop wanted. I still thought that was a crazy price. Let’s just say, I payed approx 20% or less than the bike shop asking price. By all means, if someone wants it for 2g’s, I’ll even throw in the shipping. Haha.


----------



## Miq

Great finds @Jim sciano !  Very good pics of the saddle, pedals and rims on the racer. Thank you.

I‘ll add them to the list with all the detective work you guys did this week.


----------



## Miq

The transition black Racer made the top 10 oldest and is the only C serial bike with rear dropouts, very cool.  @Jim sciano you have two bikes in the top of the list 😁
The Maroon 1947 is the *100th bike* added to the list. Congrats to everyone for contributing!! 🍻


----------



## Jim sciano

@Miq awesome. This is such a cool thread. Absolutely amazing that 100 have been documented already. I actually just picked up another one today. It’s a k serial number. I’ll get some pics and have it posted later. Not really seeing much for wartime parts on it. Once again, thanks to everyone for getting together and making this happen. I am definitely not a pro, but I am learning a lot when I see every new post.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

picked up another blackout bike today at the Niles Flea Market in Fremont. handlebars, stem and wheels have been painted. wheels are white underneath. Liberty badge and Liberty on the downtube.


----------



## cyclingday

Canvas parts bag, with what looks like a wartime Victory model on it.


----------



## rennfaron

cyclingday said:


> Canvas parts bag, with what looks like a wartime Victory model on it.



Got two of them. Hard to find! Yours looks like it’s missing the label at the bottom.


----------



## Jim sciano

Wow, those bags are very cool. Please let me know if you guys ever want to part with one.


----------



## sam

I have a 40's New World with three piece BB. Unlike the rest here I've stripped this frame down to bare metal so here's how they went together. Both Huffmann and schwinn used fillit for connecting their tubes. Schwinn used Brass and Huffmann used mild steel. The war effort limited brass so schwinn switched to mild steel which can be used same as brass. on inspection of the bare frame the only tubes connected using brass were the rear stays at the seat post. All other joints were  gas welded same as brass only with mild steel rods and then smoothed with body lead.


----------



## cyclingday

1940 advertisement.


----------



## cyclingday

One more recent find for the archive.








Earliest I series for the chart so far.


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## 49autocycledeluxe

cyclingday said:


> .View attachment 1475229




I wonder how much that sold for. looks like it would clean up nice. I need a maroon one.


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## cyclingday

She may still have it available.
I encouraged her to list it here, but I’m not sure if she ever did.
You should send her a message if you’re interested in it.


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## GTs58

cyclingday said:


> She may still have it available.
> I encouraged her to list it here, but I’m not sure if she ever did.
> You should send her a message if you’re interested in it.




That crank sure looks like the big boys 7" dog leg piece that they didn't use on the New Worlds. I was multi-posting the night when they posted the serial picture and I was short worded in my post so I f ed up.


----------



## Miq

Life has been getting in the way of me keeping up with the chart.  I'm catching up today.

@49autocycledeluxe 's Liberty badged bike is a blackout bonanza and I love getting to see the Liberty decal!  Great flea market find.

@cyclingday 's and @Alphabetty 's find is really interesting too.  It is right on the dividing line of our charts.  Does anyone know if a Caber ended up with this bike?  CABE Sale  I can't tell from the photo of the BB if it is EF or not.  It looks like NOT to me...  The pic of the Musselman hub stamps is interesting.  The semicircle ??
It would be nice to find out if the crank is a 501 men's or 502 ladies/New World like @GTs58 mentioned.


----------



## cyclingday

Rehabilitated,
1942 Schwinn built, Goodrich defense model.


----------



## Alphabetty

I did finally list it. Had to do some strange work arounds to get it to post. Per the earlier post, what is an EF BB? And how do I tell if it is a men's or women's crank arm?


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

Alphabetty said:


> I did finally list it. Had to do some strange work arounds to get it to post. Per the earlier post, what is an EF BB? And how do I tell if it is a men's or women's crank arm?



EF BB is electroforged bottom bracket. basically how the frame was constructed. it is not important for you trying to sell it. these guys are trying among other things to figure out what year changes were made in frame construction on these old bikes.


----------



## RustyHornet

cyclingday said:


> View attachment 1485823
> Rehabilitated,
> 1942 Schwinn built, Goodrich defense model.



That is absolutely gorgeous! Did you add the rear hub or was it born that way???


----------



## Alphabetty

I'd be glad to help - I'll clean it up a bit and take more pics


----------



## RustyHornet

49autocycledeluxe said:


> EF BB is electroforged bottom bracket. basically how the frame was constructed. it is not important for you trying to sell it. these guys are trying among other things to figure out what year changes were made in frame construction on these old bikes.



I love all the learning going on in this thread. So much information coming about and the list is getting bigger! Can’t wait to get one of mine back together…


----------



## cyclingday

RustyHornet said:


> That is absolutely gorgeous! Did you add the rear hub or was it born that way???



Thank you!
It came as a standard coaster brake model, but I felt that it looked a bit sparse without the hand brakes.
I looked around for a set of the caliper brakes, but only came up with a front brake.
So, since I had a nice set of prewar expander brake hubs, and they were on the options list, I decided to go that route.




I’m thinking about adding a light kit, but I’m not sure, what was available for these at that time.
I’ve seen the Delta Roadliter mentioned in the period advertisements, but I’m not all that crazy about the styling of that particular headlight.
So, I’ll look around, and see if something more appropriate pops up.


----------



## RustyHornet

cyclingday said:


> Thank you!
> It came as a standard coaster brake model, but I felt that it looked a bit sparse without the hand brakes.
> I looked around for a set of the caliper brakes, but only came up with a front brake.
> So, since I had a nice set of prewar expander brake hubs, and they were on the options list, I decided to go that route.
> View attachment 1486431
> I’m thinking about adding a light kit, but I’m not sure, what was available for these at that time.
> I’ve seen the Delta Roadliter mentioned in the period advertisements, but I’m not all that crazy about the styling of that particular headlight.
> So, I’ll look around, and see if something more appropriate pops up.



Man that is perfect. Makes me wanna get my 1940 3 speed with front and rear rim brakes going!


----------



## Miq

@Alphabetty thanks for joining the fun here!  When the bottom bracket (BB) was made it could have been electroforged (EF), in which case there would be a big electroforging (electric welding) line across it like this:



More pics of your New World are very welcome here.  It's an interesting bike built in a transitional time at Schwinn.  Good luck with the sale!

@cyclingday Nice pic of the front brake!  It looks right at home.  I updated the chart with your expander brake info and corrected the saddle info on @49autocycledeluxe 's Liberty badged bike.


----------



## Miq

@Alphabetty you can tell if the crank is a New World crank by measuring from the center of the pedal hole to the center of the part of the crank that passes through the BB.  If it is a 6 1/2" then it is a New World crank.  If it is 7" long it was replaced with a Men's crank from another Schwinn model.   



A New World crank might also have the part number 502 molded into the center section of the crank (if you were to pull it out to clean/replace the BB components)


----------



## cyclingday




----------



## Miq

Cool stuff @cyclingday.  It would be interesting to know how many lightweights were sold in 41 for sure. I imagine the results of the “Form 209” survey burned up with the rest of the records.  

Where did the “About the new model bicycles“ text come from?  Is it a dealer newsletter?  Neat insight into how quickly businesses had to adapt to wartime government influence. Diamond frame New Worlds fit the bill and the low volume production seems to have allowed/helped them to introduce new manufacturing techniques like electro forging more and more of the frame joints.


----------



## cyclingday




----------



## cyclingday




----------



## cyclingday




----------



## cyclingday

Some of the lighting choices for 1942


----------



## Miq

That last paragraph in the Bicycle Production Ruling is another piece of this puzzle. 

The EA Victory Lamp with the blackout blue lens would be sick on a 42. 🤩


----------



## RustyHornet

Very cool stuff! Thanks for posting @cyclingday !


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

bought a ladies prewar over the weekend at the Stockton Bike Swap. has a Japanese freewheel hub on the back, and a Schwinn hub up front. not sure about the hoops. it also came with what are probably the original wheels as well. has the wrong brake levers it came with no crank or gear, and I put this one on to ride it last night. the bike had no seat, and I found this seat in a box of seats the seller had. I should have been looking for the crank!!

looks like a 41 on the chart. no EF bottom bracket. lots of pinstripes. Henderson badge and a very faint Henderson on the downtube. locking fork. the old wheels are chrome under the rust.


----------



## Miq

Nice find @49autocycledeluxe !  The seat looks right to me. The Henderson badging and locking fork don’t show up very often. I’ll add it to the list.


----------



## SirMike1983

The wartime specifications are pretty orthodox. Diamond frame, 20 inch minimum frame size, 1-3/8 tires basically describes a "light roadster" type utility bicycle.  A 21-22 inch frame is a little more practical and is the more common size. I've seen taller frame Westfield wartime bikes as well, in the 23-24 inch size. One is hard-pressed to think of a better commuter type platform than a medium-sized diamond frame bike with basic fenders, perhaps a chain guard, and maybe a light set. It's an austere change from the heavily-equipped balloon tire bikes offered to younger people before and after the war. I had an opportunity to buy a tall frame wartime Westfield commuter bike a few years ago, but foolishly turned it down. You can get by with surprisingly little in the way of extras on a bike if you have a solid, diamond frame that fits, decent wheelset, and working brakes.


----------



## Miq

SirMike1983 said:


> One is hard-pressed to think of a better commuter type platform than a medium-sized diamond frame bike with basic fenders, perhaps a chain guard, and maybe a light set.  ...  You can get by with surprisingly little in the way of extras on a bike if you have a solid, diamond frame that fits, decent wheelset, and working brakes.



Well put @SirMike1983.  When I first got my gramp's 1941 rolling again, I was struck by how solid and "real" (word I used in my head) the bike is.  It didn't feel like an antiquated 80 year old contraption I could ride for nostalgia's sake.  It continues to be a solid bike after the thousands of miles I've put on it.

@49autocycledeluxe I am no longer the youngest Pre-war New World on the list. 😀  Amazing how fast you got the bike functional again. The chrome on the bars is in good shape too.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

a guy can only have so many ladies bikes .... here's another one I'll add here I have had for a while.

I'll have to find more pics....  had no original fenders. those are extra wheels in the pic below.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

my pictures are mostly on my old computer. found these on my phone. pedals are from a 1950 girls bike, which is now a 1953 Men's bike.

anyone know what the fender is? fits perfect on the axle. it is chrome with metal flake paint fogged over it. really cool, sorry no pictures.


----------



## Miq

Thanks for adding the pics of your blue step thru @49autocycledeluxe!  Good shot of the dark blue pins. Have you found any date-able parts on that bike?  It's right on the edge of 1941.  Just wondering if you pulled the crank or if the hub had any clues.

@GTs58 saw this black Victory New World online and provided these great pics from the owner:



























Since it is a VW1M Victory bike it did not originally come with a chainguard or kickstand.  The bars, grips, saddle are also replacements but the rest of the bike is very close to it's I8xxxx serial brothers owned by @HUFFMANBILL and @49autocycledeluxe.  Blackout hubs, blackout skip tooth chainring, 1 wire rear mudguard stay, victory "V" marked Whirlwind tire, are hallmarks of these wartime Victory bikes.  Sweet!


----------



## Miq




----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

Miq said:


> Thanks for adding the pics of your blue step thru @49autocycledeluxe!  Good shot of the dark blue pins. Have you found any date-able parts on that bike?  It's right on the edge of 1941.  Just wondering if you pulled the crank or if the hub had any clues.




all I have done to this blue one was rob it of the Miller kickstand, remove the later fender, install new tubes and rebuild the coaster brake. looks and feels like the crank bearings were done already, so I have not checked the crank. eventually I'll have a look.


----------



## 67 stingray

49autocycledeluxe said:


> I wonder how much that sold for. looks like it would clean up nice. I need a maroon one.



I ended up buying it from her


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

cool.


----------



## 67 stingray

Miq said:


> Thanks for adding the pics of your blue step thru @49autocycledeluxe!  Good shot of the dark blue pins. Have you found any date-able parts on that bike?  It's right on the edge of 1941.  Just wondering if you pulled the crank or if the hub had any clues.
> 
> @GTs58 saw this black Victory New World online and provided these great pics from the owner:
> View attachment 1501168View attachment 1501169View attachment 1501171View attachment 1501172View attachment 1501173View attachment 1501174View attachment 1501176View attachment 1501177View attachment 1501178View attachment 1501179View attachment 1501181View attachment 1501182View attachment 1501184
> Since it is a VW1M Victory bike it did not originally come with a chainguard or kickstand.  The bars, grips, saddle are also replacements but the rest of the bike is very close to it's I8xxxx serial brothers owned by @HUFFMANBILL and @49autocycledeluxe.  Blackout hubs, blackout skip tooth chainring, 1 wire rear mudguard stay, victory "V" marked Whirlwind tire, are hallmarks of these wartime Victory bikes.  Sweet!



That’s nice


----------



## Silversturrups35

Miq said:


> Please help us gather some more info on wartime Schwinn New Worlds (or other lightweights).  We know many of you have these unique bikes and they all have an interesting story to tell.  We are already starting to get an idea of what serial number New Worlds have the transition from brazing to electro forming construction and can see the progression from few blackout parts to many.  There were many (not 100s of thousands but many) non-military "Defense" or "Victory" New Worlds built during the war.   Here's a look at what we have started to see:
> 
> View attachment 991082
> 
> With the help of @GTs58 and @SirMike1983 and a few other New World enthusiasts, we've been able to thread a narrative about the progression of these bikes from braced big handle bar tourists with rear forks, to the inexpensive rear dropout lightweight EF performers they became.  This is how we got here:  3-speeder's Wartime Schwinn New World
> 
> But there are MANY more of these wartime lightweights out there in your collections.  Here's a few examples we think would help add more clues and details.  Do you know anything about these bikes?  Do you have a serial number or pictures or more info you can share to help add to our understanding?
> 
> @bikepaulie What's the serial number on your 1939??
> 
> @bobcycles You see all kinds of stuff and can probably add tons of info.  In particular, what happened to this bike?  This is exactly the kind of bike we want to know more about.  War Bird
> 
> @manuelvilla You have/had a beautiful step through New World that holds clues I'm sure.  My New World
> 
> @DonChristie You have/had this very original 1940 looking bike.  What's the serial number?  New World
> 
> @orangewill Mentioned this K serial bike of his friends.  Any one know more about it?  ID Help
> 
> @Jim Barnard had this bike with a 3-piece crank and brazed frame with tons of blackout parts.  What's the story?  Too unique!  Wartime Blacked Out
> 
> @Eric had/has this blackout ladies beauty.  Any way to get more info on this one?  War Era Schwinn
> 
> @GenuineRides had this frame for sale that looks interesting.  Did it get used in a build?  Help w Year
> 
> @bikiba I know you love these bikes.  Got any pics/info you can share to help add to the story.  You have the blackout eyes.
> 
> @jpromo In one thread you mention owning 3 of these frames (Serial F, G, and I).  Please tell us more...
> 
> I'm looking forward to what kind of stuff crawls out of the woodwork on this.  Who has stuff we've never seen before?  Time to shine a light on that funny wartime lightweight you've been secretly loving...  Let's fill the table out all the way to @SirMike1983 's gorgeous 1947 multi-gear New World!
> 
> YOU GOT THEM - LET'S SEE THEM!!


----------



## Silversturrups35

Silversturrups35 said:


> View attachment 1516975



This is my great grandpas I am not dead sure on what it is if anyone can find a pic of how it should be I would love it


----------



## Oilit

Silversturrups35 said:


> This is my great grandpas I am not dead sure on what it is if anyone can find a pic of how it should be I would love it



With the built-in kickstand it's post-war. Schwinn built that frame style from 1945 up until the early '60's. There should be a serial number under the crank bracket or on the left drop-out, that should narrow down the year. The chain ring's been replaced, but it looks like the paint may be original, maybe a late '50's Racer? Are there any other parts?


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

crank sprocket says late 60's through the 70's


----------



## 1motime

Silversturrups35 said:


> This is my great grandpas I am not dead sure on what it is if anyone can find a pic of how it should be I would love it



Looks like the remains of a 1960's Racer if the sprocket is correct


----------



## Oilit

1motime said:


> Looks like the remains of a 1960's Racer if the sprocket is correct



I'm thinking the frame is earlier than the sprocket, but I'm going off the top of my head.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

I don't know when that sprocket came out, but the remaining decals are early 60's Racer style, maybe the sprocket has been changed


----------



## Oilit

49autocycledeluxe said:


> I don't know when that sprocket came out, but the remaining decals are early 60's Racer style, maybe the sprocket has been changed



Checking the catalogs, it looks like 1965 was the last year for the step-through frame with the straight top tube, early '60's could be right.


----------



## rennfaron

I haven’t look at it too hard but looks like a late 50s ladies racer (maybe early 60s) In that condition it’s worth whatever you can get for the parts. IMO It looks like it has already been gone over, stripped of parts and left for dead. Chain ring was swapped.


----------



## 67 stingray




----------



## 67 stingray

That maroon one that was posted on here 41 I believe


----------



## GTs58

67 stingray said:


> That maroon one that was posted on here 41 I believe




So the crank leg is a 6.5"?


----------



## Silversturrups35

Oilit said:


> I'm thinking the frame is earlier than the sprocket, but I'm going off the top of my head.



Yes the sprocket has been replaced it had the schwinn clover although


----------



## dogdart

Came across this thread after purchasing this 1942 Victory step thru. Serial number J09951 




It has seen better days,  and had some upgrades to keep her going. What keeps this original family bike from the dumpster,  is the original paperwork,  including original War Price and Rationing certificate


----------



## Oilit

dogdart said:


> Came across this thread after purchasing this 1942 Victory step thru. Serial number J09951 View attachment 1517687
> 
> It has seen better days,  and had some upgrades to keep her going. What keeps this original family bike from the dumpster,  is the original paperwork,  including original War Price and Rationing certificate View attachment 1517688
> 
> View attachment 1517689
> 
> View attachment 1517690
> 
> View attachment 1517692
> 
> View attachment 1517693



I'm amazed that the paperwork survived. You need to invest in a lottery ticket while you're at it!


----------



## GTs58

dogdart said:


> Came across this thread after purchasing this 1942 Victory step thru. Serial number J09951 View attachment 1517687
> 
> It has seen better days,  and had some upgrades to keep her going. What keeps this original family bike from the dumpster,  is the original paperwork,  including original War Price and Rationing certificate View attachment 1517688
> 
> View attachment 1517689
> 
> View attachment 1517690
> 
> View attachment 1517692
> 
> View attachment 1517693




Thank you for posting this documented piece! Very interesting to learn that the J series can now be placed at least mid way thru 1942. Was this piece acquired from the original owners family?


----------



## dogdart

GTs58 said:


> Thank you for posting this documented piece! Very interesting to learn that the J series can now be placed at least mid way thru 1942. Was this piece acquired from the original owners family?



From the grandson , who told me she is still alive. He had Hope's of restoring it , but never got to it


----------



## Miq

Great find @dogdart!!  Cool to see some legit war time dated provenance tied to a serial number.  Thank you for adding it.


----------



## Miq

67 stingray said:


> That maroon one that was posted on here 41 I believe



Thanks @67 stingray !  Nice to see that bike getting some love.  The frame looks nice.  Is there any chance you could take a pic of the bottom of the bottom bracket where the serial number is?  Your bike was built at a time when Schwinn was changing the frame construction/welding of the bottom brackets on these bikes.  I added you as the bike contributor on the list. 



GTs58 said:


> So the crank leg is a 6.5"?



Yes that H502 casting looks identical to the marks on my OG crank.





@dogdart I added your bike to the list and changed all the J0 and earlier serials to 1942.


----------



## 67 stingray

I _01057_


----------



## Miq

Nice Not EF.


----------



## 67 stingray

Would you know what year


----------



## 67 stingray

Miq said:


> Nice Not EF.



Would you know what year


----------



## Oilit

67 stingray said:


> Would you know what year



This is the bike you got from @Alphabetty, correct? She first posted the bike in this thread:








						Dad's Garage Destash | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

I'm a noob here so I home I'm not breaking any rules. Dad and I want to find homes for these things he has rescued from sales and trash piles. What are these things worth so I can sell them? The Schwinn is skip tooth - the seat and bars are newer it looks like.




					thecabe.com
				



Early 1942 or possibly late '41 is as close as we can get, as far as I know. The hub date is for the first quarter of 1941, so the bike was built sometime after that. If there's any black-out parts on it, that would make it mid-1942. I didn't see any, but there was enough dirt and grime that I'm not 100% sure.


----------



## 67 stingray

Oilit said:


> This is the bike you got from @Alphabetty, correct? She first posted the bike in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dad's Garage Destash | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
> 
> 
> I'm a noob here so I home I'm not breaking any rules. Dad and I want to find homes for these things he has rescued from sales and trash piles. What are these things worth so I can sell them? The Schwinn is skip tooth - the seat and bars are newer it looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thecabe.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Early 1942 or possibly late '41 is as close as we can get, as far as I know. The hub date is for the first quarter of 1941, so the bike was built sometime after that. If there's any black-out parts on it, that would make it mid-1942. I didn't see any, but there was enough dirt and grime that I'm not 100% sure.



Yes and thank you


----------



## Oilit

Here's another post-war New World listed on Facebook Marketplace in Pennsylvania. The seller says it's 1949, but it has a quadrant shifter. It's got plenty of weathering, but looks straight and original. No price listed, so he's probably looking for offers.




__





						1949 Schwinn bike for sale all is original Great to restore It's a new world Barn Find three speed - Bicycles - Grindstone, Pennsylvania | Facebook Marketplace
					






					www.facebook.com


----------



## SirMike1983

According to the most recent chart, that S number does indeed look to be 1949. In that era the AW hub may have a date code, but some of them do not have a code. Did he have anything from the hub shell? 1949 would indeed be late for a quadrant shifter, though Schwinn kept using them after the English had largely moved away from them. The two 1949 Schwinn 3 speed bikes I've had both had handle bar click shifters (silverface design). But that's just a couple of examples. There are so many variations that I would not rule a quadrant out if everything else was 1949 on it.


----------



## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> According to the most recent chart, that S number does indeed look to be 1949. In that era the AW hub may have a date code, but some of them do not have a code. Did he have anything from the hub shell? 1949 would indeed be late for a quadrant shifter, though Schwinn kept using them after the English had largely moved away from them. The two 1949 Schwinn 3 speed bikes I've had both had handle bar click shifters (silverface design). But that's just a couple of examples. There are so many variations that I would not rule a quadrant out if everything else was 1949 on it.



He doesn't say where he's getting the date from. I may have to message him to find out. And see what he's asking while I'm at it. 🚴‍♂️


----------



## 67 stingray

Nice find


----------



## GTs58

Oilit said:


> He doesn't say where he's getting the date from. I may have to message him to find out. And see what he's asking while I'm at it. 🚴‍♂️




I've seen two Phantoms with the S123456 serials. The 1949 F numbers changed to S on 11-3-49 and was stamped in place of the F letter thru 11-8-49 with the last number being S321357.


----------



## Oilit

GTs58 said:


> I've seen two Phantoms with the S123456 serials. The 1949 F numbers changed to S on 11-3-49 and was stamped in place of the F letter thru 11-8-49 with the last number being S321357.



That sounds right, this one falls right in that range. The seller said he went by the serial to find the date. He sent me a couple more pictures and it doesn't look like he's thought to check the date on the hub.


----------



## SirMike1983

That style of oiler appears on many of the AW hubs from the late 1940s and early 1950s.


----------



## Oilit

According to the listing on Facebook, this bike sold. Did anybody on here buy it? The rims look like they may be chrome S-6 with the diamond knurl in the center, but I can't tell for sure. If you bought it, post some pictures if you please, help out an old man straining his eyes. And a good picture of the hub date would be nice too.


----------



## 67 stingray

Which one I know there was a green one


----------



## Oilit

67 stingray said:


> Which one I know there was a green one



I meant the maroon '49 on FBM in Pennsylvania, serial no. S320497. Which green one do you mean?


----------



## 67 stingray

There’s a new world green one in Wisconsin for sale


----------



## 67 stingray

Fond du lac Wisconsin it’s a 52


----------



## Oilit

67 stingray said:


> Fond du lac Wisconsin it’s a 52



If it's a '52 it's probably a World Traveler. I think 1949 was the last year for the New Worlds.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

Miq said:


> Thanks for adding the pics of your blue step thru @49autocycledeluxe!  Good shot of the dark blue pins. Have you found any date-able parts on that bike?  It's right on the edge of 1941.  Just wondering if you pulled the crank or if the hub had any clues




looks like a 1953 crank.


----------



## Junkman Bob

I just got home with this one … Kinda cool … been a long day so I didn’t get the SN but snapped a couple pics ..I do have the brake handles and cables 
Bob


----------



## 67 stingray

Very nice


----------



## GTs58

Junkman Bob said:


> I just got home with this one … Kinda cool … been a long day so I didn’t get the SN but snapped a couple pics ..I do have the brake handles and cables
> Bob
> 
> View attachment 1529618
> 
> View attachment 1529619
> 
> View attachment 1529620
> 
> View attachment 1529621




That piece has the prewar chain ring, no built in kickstand, welded on seat post clamp and semi-tubular fender braces. Looks like a 40-41 to me since it has the drop outs and it's prewar. Fender braces have been replaced.


----------



## Junkman Bob

I think that rear hub is  so cool looking …


----------



## nick tures

Junkman Bob said:


> I just got home with this one … Kinda cool … been a long day so I didn’t get the SN but snapped a couple pics ..I do have the brake handles and cables
> Bob



oa in the summer Bob ?


----------



## Junkman Bob

If I still own this beauty in the summer…. Yes 
Merry Christmas Nick


----------



## nick tures

Junkman Bob said:


> If I still own this beauty in the summer…. Yes
> Merry Christmas Nick



Merry Christmas Bob !!


----------



## cyclingday




----------



## 67 stingray

Here’s an update on the one I bought last photo was it’s condition anyone fully restored one yet trying to find original seat and grips


----------



## RustyHornet

This one showed up on Instagram. I inquired about the serial. Rear facing drops, so that puts it 1939-40?


----------



## GTs58

@RustyHornet  I can't tell for sure if that's a Superior or New World with that lousy picture. It does actually appear to have the removable seat post clamp and the Superior/Paramount horizontal slot rear fork end, so I'm leaning towards a 1939 Superior. The drop outs started in 1940.


----------



## RustyHornet

GTs58 said:


> @RustyHornet  I can't tell for sure if that's a Superior or New World with that lousy picture. It does actually appear to have the removable seat post clamp and the Superior/Paramount horizontal slot rear fork end, so I'm leaning towards a 1939 Superior. The drop outs started in 1940.



He said all he can see are 4 digits. B624


----------



## GTs58

RustyHornet said:


> He said all he can see are 4 digits. B624



That would be a 39 Superior, three digit number. The tubing is also larger, and if there is a head badge it would have Superior at the bottom.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

that would be the 2nd oldest bike on the serial number list.


----------



## RustyHornet

Very cool @GTs58 ! I informed him of what he’s got, at least what’s left of it.


----------



## DaGasMan

Put me on the board coach. I made the team! I just picked this one up yesterday
for an absolute deal. Schwinn gods parted the clouds and bright rays of what 
looked like chromed spokes shone down upon me... $50 on Offerup. I love this bike.
Serial number H80894. Odd detail is coaster rear wheel with no brake and only one
front wheel hand brake. I suppose it's possible the rear brake is missing along
with the seat. And I'm not sure about the grips as these are Schwinn in the oval. 
Pedals are Torrington 8s. Lobdell rims and the tires are new made in China, pitui. 
Diamond 1/2" chain. The pin stripping is still sharp with a bit of wear on the top bar
and rear fender. No rear reflector or even a hole for one. Is there a type that would
attach using the fender stay bolt? Rusty worn spot through the chrome on the
handlebars where either a light or a bell was attached. I've been saving a Schwinn
bell for just such an occasion. She's beautiful. Just need to fix that rear fender and
go for a ride! Woo! I'm so happy.


----------



## 67 stingray

That’s clean


----------



## cyclingday

Congrats!
That’s a beautiful bike!


----------



## RunGrampyRun

2 for me!   Both 1948‘s blue one is a 1 owner.


----------



## 1motime

Very nice New World!  Lots of really clean ones popping up.  Must be Spring!


----------



## Miq

Glad to see some new ones joining the list. 

@DaGasMan Nice looking bike, the paint and decals are great.  The 41 Catalog has the large flange freewheel rear hub paired with front and rear hand brakes (W1MFC).  It was very easy to customize these bikes and mix in other lightweight parts.  Your back mudguard should attach to the frame where the missing rear brake would mount to the frame.  It doesn't look like a rear hand brake left a mark on the handle bars so maybe it never had one, but its hard to tell from the pictures.  ??  The catalog drawing below shows the reflector mounted on the rear mudguard stay attachment.  We'd love to see some more pics of this bike.  Please take some as you clean it up if you can.  It is going to be a very nice prewar survivor. 




@RunGrampyRun Nice haul pulling a pair of 48s.  😎   The 1 owner blue bike is very well preserved.  What does the gold decal on the seat tube say?

The red bike could also be a great bike.  I can still see pins and decals on the frame.  It needs some love but it could be a solid rider.  The stainless wheels are sweet.  Can you please take more pics of these bikes too?  What is the serial number of the red bike? Can we see the bottom of the bottom bracket?

1948 Catalog Pic of the Tourist version:


----------



## RunGrampyRun

pic of red was taken immediately after acquiring with no clean up.
Yellow tag on blue one is dealer sticker. Cant get SN pic to upload I’m recovering from being run off road by a car (neither of these bikes) so will get additional pix when I can use both hands again.

The seller provided a picture taken the day his mother, Shirley brought home the bike.  She bought it with her 1st paycheck from her 1st job @ The Federal Reserve in St Louis.  Unfortunately the purchase paperwork is gone.


----------



## DaGasMan

Thanks Miq. I agree with your well judged assessment that it's a W1MFC. Thank you 
for posting the ad too. I'll be posting in the WTB section for the front rim, rear brake
and seat, etc. I'll also start a new post with better photos as I go, rather than gum this
one up with my stuff.


----------



## Vicious Cycle

I have a step-through version, Dark Blue, Frame and Forks only, #I77208 (1942?) the year would jive with what I was told when I bought it from Westminster Schwinn many years ago. It is all Fillet-Brazed except for the BB to Seat tube joint. Just pulled it down from the shop attic and will post pic's when I get it cleaned up a bit. I will be listing it for sale when I have pic's.


----------



## Miq

DaGasMan said:


> I'll also start a new post with better photos as I go, rather than gum this
> one up with my stuff.



Sounds good @DaGasMan. Please post a pic here when you get it to a point you like.


----------



## Miq

Vicious Cycle said:


> I have a step-through version, Dark Blue, Frame and Forks only, #I77208 (1942?) the year would jive with what I was told when I bought it from Westminster Schwinn many years ago. It is all Fillet-Brazed except for the BB to Seat tube joint.




Thanks @Vicious Cycle, please take some pics of the bottom bracket welds and serial number if you can.  We would like to see your 42 frame and forks before they get sold.


----------



## Vicious Cycle

Here are some pics. This came from the owner of Westminster Schwinn back in the 80's. He told me it was a War-time Schwinn. Your ser.# list peg's it at 1942


----------



## Alan Brase

Welding details look exactly like my men's frame with the J serial. I speculate that makes mine about 1943. Bottom bracket ONLY the seat tube is what came to be called "electroforged" Nice paint and decals! Did yours have all the parts of just the bare frame? 
Mine was bare, but for headset and seatpost and fenders.


----------



## Vicious Cycle

Just the frame and forks.


----------



## Miq

@Vicious Cycle thank you for the great pics of your very well preserved frame and forks.  Nice to see the welding details.  The seat tube decal is outstanding 🤩 and the pin striping is pretty complete.  From looking at its neighbors on the list, I imagine the bike had blackout hubs as well as many other blackout parts.  Like @HUFFMANBILL 's 42 it looks like it may have come with a Miller kickstand.  I can't tell from any of the pics if it might have had a chain guard or not.  When you say Westminster Schwinn, you mean Westminster CA, right?

Good luck with your sale.  I hope someone gets it rolling again someday.


----------



## Miq




----------



## Vicious Cycle

Yes, Westminster So. Cal.

p.s. put the frame and fork on Deal Or No Deal today, time for a new home.


----------



## SirMike1983

New World bike E55712 is a standard men's frame, dark red example. It looks to be in the 1948-49 date range, based on your chart. It has:

Electro-forged bottom bracket shell
Standard pitch drive train
One piece crank
Mesinger Slide rail saddle (the balloon style one)
Standard type post-war fender braces
Front and rear hand brakes - "Schwinn Built" calipers with Schwinn type levers
Dunlop EA1 / 26 x 1-1/4 stainless rims
British-style wing nut front hub
December 1948 Sturmey Archer AM medium ratio 3-speed hub
Galvanized spokes
Hockey stick chain guard
Chain guard has the brake cable housing loop for the Schinn unisex rear brake routing
standard New World round head badge


This is the first New World I've found with British clubman style wheels. I thought they were 1960s replacements originally, but then I noticed the 1948 AM medium ratio hub and the old-style Dunlop stainless rim imprints. The wing nut front hub is another odd addition. So perhaps someone special ordered a somewhat sportier New World. Kind of strange to stick to the one-piece crank with all that though. 

The bike also has the best preserved set of Uniroyal chain treads I've ever seen on a 3 speed bike. They were nice tires, but nylon cord, so probably somewhat after the bike was made.


----------



## rennfaron

What was up with the stem on that one? I don't think I have seen that stem on a NW before. Looked similar to a razor stem, but not. 

The whole shifting cabling, jockey wheel and shifter look added on, swapped out or updated. I couldn't tell from the photos but the shifter looked like it was a 50s+ SA shifter. The jockey wheel looks 60s+. Maybe it had a quadrant setup that was replaced?

The bike came out of the Chicago area (per seller).


----------



## SirMike1983

It's a lot like a razor stem but a bit shorter and no AS bolts. I didn't see any markings on it when I glanced it over. I haven't cleaned it up totally yet. Plating and finishing are pretty good. Quill looks correct and not cut or ground down at all.  

The shifter stuff is all replacement stuff until you get to the shifter chain. 1948-49 could go either way with the original shifter. I've seen some with quadrants still ('47-'48 era bikes), and some with the short-lived solid silver face shifter ('49-'50 era bikes mainly).  Some may also have had the rare blackface shifter with silver writing, which was offered around the same time as the silver. Cool stuff but a pain in the ass to find if you're set on finding one.

The paint is generally good but is going to need some help here and there. Pinstripes are actually better than expected. Grips are kind of petrified. Brake cables and housings are original from what I can see (and pretty dried out at that).

I find it kind of amusing that the bike had club wheels and a medium ratio hub but a ballooner saddle and one piece crank. But an ounce off the wheels is worth three off the frame...

I assumed it was a set of 1960s Raleigh Sports wheels on the bike. I figured they were too clean looking and the shifter mechanism was all wrong, so the wheels probably got swapped too. I have a stash of Schwinn wheels built up from hubs and NOS rims I've found, so assumed I'd just swap out the wheel set. I'll have to reconsider that now that someone sprung for something different. Goes to show you've never seen everything.


----------



## Miq

@SirMike1983 I entered your E serial bike on the chart.  Are there more pics of this bike somewhere?  Can you point us to them?


----------



## SirMike1983

I don't have any truly good pictures yet. The project is in pieces in my garage and some of the parts in my workshop getting sorted out. 

Seller's picture is:





One other data point that you may want to collect is the transition from the "Schwinn Built" calipers with hook springs to the "Schwinn Built" calipers with straight springs and pegs on the brake arms. My 1947 black New World has the hook spring brake clamps, as did my wife's 1946 ladies' model. My 1948/49 New World has the straight spring and peg type calipers. The hook spring type is largely regarded as "pre-war" design, but it apparently persisted until sometime after WWII. How long, I don't know for certain, but it appears it changed some time in 1947. At least that is my guess.


----------



## Miq

Thanks Mike. The paint and chrome are nice.  Looking forward to seeing what you do with it.


----------



## SirMike1983

Not my bike, but one for sale on Facebook.

I72058

Dark red, large number of blackout parts, wooden grips, wooden pedal blocks, painted rims, blackout fat (slat?) type braces, single speed coaster brake, blackout hubs. Looks like a true WWII era bike. Unusual Lincoln headbadge. Hard to tell, but bottom bracket may not be electroforged. I don't see a seam on it. Could be they were using up the parts that had been sitting in the bins?


----------



## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> Not my bike, but one for sale on Facebook.
> 
> I72058
> 
> Dark red, large number of blackout parts, wooden grips, wooden pedal blocks, painted rims, blackout fat (slat?) type braces, single speed coaster brake, blackout hubs. Looks like a true WWII era bike. Unusual Lincoln headbadge. Hard to tell, but bottom bracket may not be electroforged. I don't see a seam on it. Could be they were using up the parts that had been sitting in the bins?
> 
> View attachment 1619362
> 
> View attachment 1619363
> 
> View attachment 1619364



Are those black-out "slat" stays? That's a new one on me!


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

SirMike1983 said:


> Not my bike, but one for sale on Facebook
> 
> View attachment 1619364



where is this bike located and what were they asking??


----------



## Alan Brase

Oilit said:


> Are those black-out "slat" stays? That's a new one on me!



Just looking at the tables, it is well in the middle of the WIRE stayed fender braces. Suspect they are replacements for the flimsier wire stays. 
Tho I have ZERO experience with LINCOLN badged bikes. Where do they fit in?


----------



## SirMike1983

49autocycledeluxe said:


> where is this bike located and what were they asking??



Grand Rapids, Michigan. Asking $1,000 for it.


----------



## GTs58

War time piece with just one rear fender stay. Looks legit to me even with the flat braces. What's funny is the high I serial number and it doesn't show any indication of the BB shell being EF'd. Or I can't see it, maybe rotated off towards the chain stays in all that gunk?


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

SirMike1983 said:


> Grand Rapids, Michigan. Asking $1,000 for it.



haha! good luck with that price.


----------



## RustyHornet

SirMike1983 said:


> Grand Rapids, Michigan. Asking $1,000 for it.



Wow! That is a gorgeous bike though!


----------



## Miq

42 (-45?) New Worlds are the most interesting and coolest IMO.  Every time we uncover a new one we find new twists.  Some of these things we've seen before.  This is @3-speeder 's 1942, it has the same basic form, even the odd blackout slat transition braces:




We talked about these odd braces in 3-speeder's thread on this bike.  They are not like the 39 braces or the future 45 slat braces. 
We have also seen how the EF and NOT EF BB got mixed around this time.  Here is @crazyhawk 's NOT EF I serial 1942 New World:



And a few other early I serials including @67 stingray 's:



But @Just Jeff found this very early I that is EF:





It also seems like a lot of the wartime New Worlds were badged with other brands.  We've seen:

Lincoln (including Sir Mike's)
BFG
Kalamazoo Supercycle
LaSalle
Cadillac
Liberty

All of these wartime bikes are such hidden gems of the vintage bike world.  However, $1k seems higher than I would expect for such an underappreciated bit of history.  😛


----------



## Miq




----------



## GTs58

After looking at the I series random non EF shells, I started to wonder what could have been the reason for this odd production practice. Could those shells actually be EF pieces and Schwinn ground off the outer slag for some reason? If someone that is listed with a non EF shell could take a look inside to see if it actually was EF, that may clear this up. But then again, it might not. 🙃


----------



## SirMike1983

This thread is an example of the CABE at its best. We've gone from knowing very little about the overall history of New Worlds to knowing quite a bit as to serial numbers, progression of certain parts and features, etc. There is still more to learn, but so far, we have documented dozens and dozens of examples that still exist today.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

SirMike1983 said:


> This thread is an example of the CABE at its best. We've gone from knowing very little about the overall history of New Worlds to knowing quite a bit as to serial numbers, progression of certain parts and features, etc. There is still more to learn, but so far, we have documented dozens and dozens of examples that still exist today.




the Cabe is a great place for us bike guys. I didn't even know the Schwinn I had for 25 years was a B-6 before I found this place. 95% of my old bike knowledge comes from here.


----------



## 3-speeder

Miq said:


> 42 (-45?) New Worlds are the most interesting and coolest IMO.  Every time we uncover a new one we find new twists.  Some of these things we've seen before.  This is @3-speeder 's 1942, it has the same basic form, even the odd blackout slat transition braces:
> View attachment 1619857
> We talked about these odd braces in 3-speeder's thread on this bike.  They are not like the 39 braces or the future 45 slat braces.
> We have also seen how the EF and NOT EF BB got mixed around this time.  Here is @crazyhawk 's NOT EF I serial 1942 New World:
> View attachment 1619858
> And a few other early I serials including @67 stingray 's:
> View attachment 1619859
> But @Just Jeff found this very early I that is EF:
> View attachment 1619865
> 
> 
> It also seems like a lot of the wartime New Worlds were badged with other brands.  We've seen:
> 
> Lincoln (including Sir Mike's)
> BFG
> Kalamazoo Supercycle
> LaSalle
> Cadillac
> Liberty
> 
> All of these wartime bikes are such hidden gems of the vintage bike world.  However, $1k seems higher than I would expect for such an underappreciated bit of history.  😛



Was mine the thread that started it all?????   Huge credit goes to @Miq .   Fantastic spreadsheet and kudos to all the work and research.  Kicked up the knowledge level to eleven!  Good job Team CABE!


----------



## SirMike1983

3-speeder said:


> Was mine the thread that started it all?????   Huge credit goes to @Miq .   Fantastic spreadsheet and kudos to all the work and research.  Kicked up the knowledge level to eleven!  Good job Team CABE!




I have to agree - putting together that chart and keeping it updated is going above and beyond the call.


----------



## 3-speeder

I merely threw a spark at @Miq 's powderkeg of interest


----------



## Miq

For sure @3-speeder ‘s bike was a spark.  Before that however, @GTs58 and I had been having personal conversations about the New Worlds and what we might be able to learn from collecting data about them.  I wanted more info on my Gramp’s 41 New World since I was ratstoring it.  He really encouraged (convinced) me to start the thread and explained what construction techniques/bike details he was interested in.  I was keyed into the mudguard brace changes already and wanted to included that.

Its fun to look back now, but the common thinking when we started was that Schwinn “didn’t make bikes during the war” except maybe cycle trucks.  But some people knew about these New Worlds with blackout parts and Q4 1942 dated hubs  😀

 The other thing that we used to hear was that you can’t figure it out because the records were destroyed in a fire.  My thinking continues to be, thankfully the fire didn’t destroy all the bikes that were built.  The bikes can help us understand the Serial number vs year vs construction, we just need to keep collecting the data.  It takes time and effort but it can be done to some extent. We continue to prove it here.  I need to note this would have been a ton more difficult without starting with @Djshakes serial vs year list.

Some personal highlights over the past 63 pages have been things like:

@vincev ’s evolving Serial number letter

@SirMike1983 ’s generous contributions of knowledge about lightweights

@HUFFMANBILL and @cyclingday posting the Wartime New World adds.  Hard to argue with that.

Realizing the correlation between the smaller 3 piece crank hub and the whacky hand stamping serials.

Learning about post war New Worlds and Worlds beyond our list from @rennfaron

Getting to see all the prewar rear fork New World racers 🤩  They are just damn cool.

And being a focal point to a large number of CABE members.  With each bike submitted I’ve gotten to start or continue conversations with all of you.  It’s made me feel an increased sense of community and I have a better appreciation for your posts in other threads.  Its hard to figure people out, harder in an online environment, but over time, like this list, trends develop.  We keep coming back here because the people and the conversations are constructive.

I look forward to learning more about the bikes and the members here in the next 63 pages.


----------



## Oilit

Miq said:


> For sure @3-speeder ‘s bike was a spark.  Before that however, @GTs58 and I had been having personal conversations about the New Worlds and what we might be able to learn from collecting data about them.  I wanted more info on my Gramp’s 41 New World since I was ratstoring it.  He really encouraged (convinced) me to start the thread and explained what construction techniques/bike details he was interested in.  I was keyed into the mudguard brace changes already and wanted to included that.
> 
> Its fun to look back now, but the common thinking when we started was that Schwinn “didn’t make bikes during the war” except maybe cycle trucks.  But some people knew about these New Worlds with blackout parts and Q4 1942 dated hubs  😀
> 
> The other thing that we used to hear was that you can’t figure it out because the records were destroyed in a fire.  My thinking continues to be, thankfully the fire didn’t destroy all the bikes that were built.  The bikes can help us understand the Serial number vs year vs construction, we just need to keep collecting the data.  It takes time and effort but it can be done to some extent. We continue to prove it here.  I need to note this would have been a ton more difficult without starting with @Djshakes serial vs year list.
> 
> Some personal highlights over the past 63 pages have been things like:
> 
> @vincev ’s evolving Serial number letter
> 
> @SirMike1983 ’s generous contributions of knowledge about lightweights
> 
> @HUFFMANBILL and @cyclingday posting the Wartime New World adds.  Hard to argue with that.
> 
> Realizing the correlation between the smaller 3 piece crank hub and the whacky hand stamping serials.
> 
> Learning about post war New Worlds and Worlds beyond our list from @rennfaron
> 
> Getting to see all the prewar rear fork New World racers 🤩  They are just damn cool.
> 
> And being a focal point to a large number of CABE members.  With each bike submitted I’ve gotten to start or continue conversations with all of you.  It’s made me feel an increased sense of community and I have a better appreciation for your posts in other threads.  Its hard to figure people out, harder in an online environment, but over time, like this list, trends develop.  We keep coming back here because the people and the conversations are constructive.
> 
> I look forward to learning more about the bikes and the members here in the next 63 pages.



@Miq,
I've been kicking around the idea of starting a thread to figure out the serial numbers on pre-Raleigh Hercules bikes. If you have enough examples, there's got to be some kind of pattern, and the internet gives you a way to see more examples than you'll ever see in person. I still need to get some pictures together to establish a starting point, but if I take this project on, it's because I saw what you did with this thread, and what Phil Marshall did with CWC serials. You've proven what can be done.


----------



## Miq

That’s great @Oilit   You should do it!


----------



## RogerP

Here's my New World single speed as I got it. Serial #D11434 puts it into late 1940. Lucky eBay find just as the prices started to skyrocket. Prior owner found it in the trash. I bought it for $40 but gave the guy $80 as I knew what it was and he deserved credit for rescuing it. No reason to be proud of taking someone for the sake of a few dollars. Fork is twisted or was never straight to begin with just like all of them. Needs a trip to the alignment table. Paint should come back with a whole lot of elbow grease. Top tube cable clips are black. Don't know it they're original.


----------



## GTs58

I can see pins underneath all that dirt! 😎... 👍 Not many of these were optioned with a freewheel rear hub and I think the cable clips may be original.


----------



## rennfaron

I agree I think those cable clips are original. This was from a 1940 I got for parts long ago. With some work it looks like that color will come back quite a bit.


----------



## Miq

Sweet prewar bike @RogerP!  I will add it to the list.  Three piece crank, free wheel hub, OG paint, OG clips, there's a cool bike you are uncovering.  Does the reflector on the back mud guard look original too?  I'm looking forward to seeing how it cleans up.


----------



## RogerP

Miq said:


> Sweet prewar bike @RogerP!  I will add it to the list.  Three piece crank, free wheel hub, OG paint, OG clips, there's a cool bike you are uncovering.  Does the reflector on the back mud guard look original too?  I'm looking forward to seeing how it cleans up.



Nothing about the reflector says it isn't original. The bike is hard to ride with the twisted fork so I doubt it saw much use. I also have a '47 Superior Ladies 3-speed in green that has great paint. I'll pull it out and do some photos soon. I have plans for both bikes that will make most of you hate me. I hate heavy rusty steel so most components will be replaced with period-feasible hot rod parts. Not getting rid of any of the original stuff so it could be put back together as-was if the next nutjob owner insists.


----------



## SirMike1983

The glass "Schwinn" stimsonite type reflector with white metal housing would be a correct option for a pre-war New World. I had a couple of those over the years. Be careful not to break the lens on the glass ones. They're expensive now.

Those slope-shouldered forks often show up twisted or bent. They are generally fixable with the fork jig and frame/fork arm tools.


----------



## RustyHornet

I’ll have to take a closer look at my ‘41, it’s got a reflector on the fender about like that. I assumed it was a later add on.


----------



## Ger Mac

Here for submission is the 1942 BF Goodrich lightweight I acquired at the end of June in Appleton, WI.  Here are the details:


1942 BF Goodrich badged lightweight bicycle
green w/gold pinstripes
serial #: I82509
has rear dropouts
wire mudguard braces, single both F & R
one-pieces, 'dogleg' style crank stamped 1942
beige or creme painted wheels w/pinstripes
no kickstand
has a chainguard
New Departure Model D rear hub
Blacked out parts: Chainring and BB hardware, headset hardware (except locknut), mudguard braces, hubs F & R, seat post (possibly)
Notes: Rear mudguard is painted black with gold pinstripes and a different shape than front.  Partial round Schwinn decal on seat tube, steerer stem was painted silver over chrome.



















































































Thank you and cheers.
Ger Mac


----------



## GTs58

Ger Mac said:


> Here for submission is the 1942 BF Goodrich lightweight I acquired at the end of June in Appleton, WI.  Here are the details:
> 
> 
> 1942 BF Goodrich badged lightweight bicycle
> green w/gold pinstripes
> serial #: I82509
> has rear dropouts
> wire mudguard braces, single both F & R
> one-pieces, 'dogleg' style crank stamped 1942
> beige or creme painted wheels w/pinstripes
> no kickstand
> has a chainguard
> New Departure Model D rear hub
> Blacked out parts: Chainring and BB hardware, headset hardware (except locknut), mudguard braces, hubs F & R, seat post (possibly)
> Notes: Rear mudguard is painted black with gold pinstripes and a different shape than front.  Partial round Schwinn decal on seat tube, steerer stem was painted silver over chrome.View attachment 1661550
> 
> View attachment 1661551
> 
> View attachment 1661552
> 
> View attachment 1661553
> 
> View attachment 1661554
> 
> View attachment 1661555
> 
> View attachment 1661556
> 
> View attachment 1661557
> 
> View attachment 1661558
> 
> View attachment 1661559
> 
> View attachment 1661560
> 
> View attachment 1661561
> 
> View attachment 1661562
> 
> View attachment 1661563
> 
> View attachment 1661564
> 
> View attachment 1661565
> 
> View attachment 1661566
> 
> View attachment 1661567
> 
> View attachment 1661568
> 
> View attachment 1661569
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you and cheers.
> Ger Mac




War time restriction build. Looks like the seat tube is EF to the bottom bracket shell. Not sure about the head tube and the tube joints to the head tube. Can you please check and verify?


----------



## Ger Mac

GTs58 said:


> War time restriction build. Looks like the seat tube is EF to the bottom bracket shell. Not sure about the head tube and the tube joints to the head tube. Can you please check and verify?



Sure, I am not well versed or schooled on EF frames (ie. what to look for).  Is there something I can photo that would help you make the determination?  Would more pics of the frame where top, down & head tubes meet at be helpful?


----------



## GTs58

Looks inside the head tube. The actual tube is made from two pieces and there will be a seam at front and back. Inside the BB shell there will be a stamped out hole protruding out for the nub that the seat post is weld to. Here's an inside shot of an EF head tube. The BB shell area for the seat post will be similar to the hole here for the top tube joint.


----------



## Ger Mac

Okay.  Thank you for the lesson.🙂 I just disassembled the headset and removed the fork. Here are two (2) pics from the inside of the headtube, one looking down towards the toptube joint (w/greased bearings) and one looking up towards the downtube and toptube joints. There appears to be a seam in both pics which would denote EF.


----------



## GTs58

Ger Mac said:


> Okay.  Thank you for the lesson.🙂 I just disassembled the headset and removed the fork. Here are two (2) pics from the inside of the headtube, one looking down towards the toptube joint (w/greased bearings) and one looking up towards the downtube and toptube joints. There appears to be a seam in both pics which would denote EF.
> 
> View attachment 1661590
> 
> View attachment 1661591




Thanks! I believe this is the first I series serial New World I've seen that had all the electro-forge frame components that came about during the war. The first electro-forge parts were the new drop outs starting with the 1940 model New Worlds. Then the BB shells were EF starting with the early I series numbers. Then it evolved into what you have there in 1942.


----------



## Ger Mac

GTs58 said:


> Thanks! I believe this is the first I series serial New World I've seen that had all the electro-forge frame components that came about during the war. The first electro-forge parts were the new drop outs starting with the 1940 model New Worlds. Then the BB shells were EF starting with the early I series numbers. Then it evolved into what you have there in 1942.



You are very welcome!   Happy to be able to help out and be a part of this project.  That is really cool!  Thanks for the info and for you fellas putting this registry together!  I will post some pics of the completed bike when I am done refurbishing it.


----------



## SirMike1983

On the same subject, I bought a New World frame, fork and fenders project from Rennfaron. Serial number is I87521, which it looks like would be a 1942 bicycle as well. The head tube inside shows the same seams as the green bike above, and the head tube joints look electroforge welded to me. Seat tube joints look to be fillet brazed. The badge is also a BF Goodrich badge, with the only frame decal being the round one on the seat tube, similar to the green bike above. Fork is the same as the green type above as well - a torpedo tube fork with kind of wide-set crown joints. Headset parts are black-out, bb cups are blackout, single rear and single front fender brace, black out braces. My own observation is that this particular red frame was somewhat hastily put together compared to pre-war and post-war frames and shows a somewhat lower level of final finishing and clean-up. The quality isn't bad, but you can tell it was a war era production.


----------



## GTs58

SirMike1983 said:


> On the same subject, I bought a New World frame, fork and fenders project from Rennfaron. Serial number is I87521, which it looks like would be a 1942 bicycle as well. The head tube inside shows the same seams as the green bike above, and the head tube joints look electroforge welded to me. Seat tube joints look to be fillet brazed. The badge is also a BF Goodrich badge, with the only frame decal being the round one on the seat tube, similar to the green bike above. Fork is the same as the green type above as well - a torpedo tube fork with kind of wide-set crown joints. Headset parts are black-out, bb cups are blackout, single rear and single front fender brace, black out braces. My own observation is that this particular red frame was somewhat hastily put together compared to pre-war and post-war frames and shows a somewhat lower level of final finishing and clean-up. The quality isn't bad, but you can tell it was a war era production.




If the head tube and joints at the head are EF, the seat tube should also be EF to the EF BB shell. The EF'g of the seat tube to the BB was the second stage after the BB shells were first EF.


----------



## Miq

@RogerP I'm interested to see how your period feasible hot rodded prewar New World looks.  Post pics again some day.

@Ger Mac It is nice to see another I serial bike make the list.  Lots of the classic wartime markers and it is very similar to @49autocycledeluxe 's I83### serial bike just below yours on the chart.  Thank you for adding it to our list and taking so many good photos of it.  It's a great example and well preserved.  I love when the crank has the date forged in and we can further define timings of things like the EF frame welding development.  The chainguard is probably added after it was purchased since the wartime bikes usually didn't come with one.

@SirMike1983 sounds like you have another 42.  I shouldn't be surprised that @rennfaron had most of another one hiding in a corner for you.  Will you be building it up to a full bike?  Do you think you will take any pics of it soon?


----------



## SirMike1983

I plan to eventually build it up into a full bicycle with parts. I'm still gathering parts. I'm not going to limit the parts to 1941-45 only, but probably anything suitable 1940-49. I think getting the bike to a period condition rather than a strictly 100% correct condition is a more reasonable goal in this case, given the age of everything involved and the scarcity of 1942 parts. I'll get pictures once it's together enough to look like something (it's in pieces right now in my garage while I gather everything up and finish up a refurbished Raleigh Sprite).


----------



## Ger Mac

Miq said:


> @RogerP I'm interested to see how your period feasible hot rodded prewar New World looks.  Post pics again some day.
> 
> @Ger Mac It is nice to see another I serial bike make the list.  Lots of the classic wartime markers and it is very similar to @49autocycledeluxe 's I83### serial bike just below yours on the chart.  Thank you for adding it to our list and taking so many good photos of it.  It's a great example and well preserved.  I love when the crank has the date forged in and we can further define timings of things like the EF frame welding development.  The chainguard is probably added after it was purchased since the wartime bikes usually didn't come with one.
> 
> @SirMike1983 sounds like you have another 42.  I shouldn't be surprised that @rennfaron had most of another one hiding in a corner for you.  Will you be building it up to a full bike?  Do you think you will take any pics of it soon?
> 
> View attachment 1662042
> View attachment 1662043
> View attachment 1662044
> View attachment 1662045
> View attachment 1662046



Thank you @Miq and @GTs58!  Thank you for doing the heavy lift in assembling this amazing registry of these lightweight bicycles.  It is because of looking at this thread and it's information that I had the knowledge to know what the '42 BF Goodrich actually is.  Too often it seems as if these lightweights are overlooked because they do not have fat tyres, springer forks, tanks, etc.  They are wonderful bicycles and offer a fabulous perspective of history that I did not know.  I have a '47 New World I hope to be adding/sharing soon.  Thank you again and look forward to watching this list grow in the future.  Cheers!


----------



## Miq

@Junkman Bob is selling this great 1940 New World in the Complete Bicycles section, serial E02139.  Similar to @RogerP 's D serial 1940, it has the rare free wheel phone dial rear hub and handbrakes configuration.  Very cool bike.  I hope it goes to a CABEr.


----------



## Ger Mac

Completed the refurboration of my 1942 BF Goodrich lightweight.  I am happy with the results.  Pedals are not accurate but the oldest I had in the bin.  They will get replaced when I come across a period correct pair.  Thanks everyone and enjoy.  Cheers!


----------



## cyclingday

Nice looking, “Victory” model!


----------



## Miq

@Ger Mac It looks great and I bet it ride great too.  

I came across this D serial 1940 New World in another thread by @SuperMirage. 2 speed coaster brake bike w OG paint and decals


----------



## Scott1963

I got this one in the Spring, at the Wethersfield, CT swap and show, my favorite event on the calendar, always fun. I want to get it onto the chart/registry, and just share. The guy I got it from has it dressed up as an “early” racer, really an old/new hybrid. He kept it skip tooth by modifying the rear cog, and drilling it and the brake arm with lightening holes!  He also put wing nuts on the rear axle, they’re just for show, Pretty cool touch.

what I know
1942 ?
sn I79655
EF BB or not, IDK, check pics
wire or slat? Missing
blackout chainring
forward facing dropouts
i haven’t touched this bike yet, I plan to ride it, the rear cog choice is perfect for my recreational cruising and occasional four mile ride to work.


----------



## Miq

@Scott1963 That's an interesting blend of old and new.  It's hard to tell from the pics but could the bottom bracket hardware also be black out?  I like that the original crank and pedals are spinning.  I bet it is fast and fun.  Enjoy your wartime machine.  😎


----------



## GTs58

I'm curious if @Scott1963 's has the EF head tube. Can't really tell from those pictures. Nice top tube to seat mast joint though.


----------



## rennfaron

*Prewar Schwinn Stutz badged new world *
I was inquiring about this one and then the seller sold it (maybe to someone on here). Was out of Waterloo, IA. It has very unique badging that I have never seen on a New World. Here is some info on the stutz badge that I could find on here: one; two; three. Rims were schwinn superior and had a fork lock and key. That one would have cleaned up really well. It has a superficial layer of grime/rust on it that would have been easily polished away to reveal some nice paint and plating. Last pic was me asking the seller to see what type of rims they were and it revealed some nice plating below...then said here is the pic but I sold it...🤨


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

oooh still has chrome left on the wheels. what was the price?


----------



## rennfaron

$225. He said he traded it for some stuff...


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

good price.


----------



## Miq

Thanks for adding it to the conversation @rennfaron.  We have not seen that badging before. Looks prewar (minus the one slat rear mudguard brace).  Interesting set of upgrade parts like the 3 piece crank and Superior wheels but no hand brakes.  What do you think is going on at the front hub?  One side of it looks different. Was there any serial number disclosed for the bike?


----------



## rennfaron

No serial. Sold it before I could find anything else out. The thing on the front hub is what is left of a speedo, most likely stewart warner. I had a prewar racer that had one on there. Given that the speedo went missing, maybe the calipers/levers did as well...


----------



## SirMike1983

First time I have seen that badge.


----------



## Miq

@63caddy added this 39 survivor.  






















The rear derailleur is aftermarket.  Top tube shifter says SIL made in Switzerland.  Cool snowflake chainring and OG Wrights English saddle.  T7 pedals.


----------



## Miq




----------



## Alan Brase

Just wanted to say I MISSED a New World at Davenport today. Shoulda coulda. Briefly checked the serial number and it seems like K41xxxx. Damned near functional. the old guy (my age old) seller said his daughter bought it a Wauseon, Ohio meet and rode it  a lot those days.  It was blue (no tranfers and I think not original), mens, elctroforged, wire stays, fenders, coaster brake, original rims and all bright work quite a bit of surface rust. Asking price $50.  I got busy with some customers from England and by the time I got back there, the seller had gone home.  Also saw a brazed Schwinn bent tube tandem, 5 speed badged "American"? had goofy saddles and ugly paint ,but well worth the $150 asking. On a positive note I did buy a more modern Roland tandem, in very good nick for $240.  I got there so late, I cannot really judge if there was a lot of neat bicycle stuff.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

I had this bike for sale on Craigslist then I saw these fenders. yes the fenders are green, bike is black.
I'll keep it for a while longer now. 🙂


----------



## Oilit

@Miq, here's another for the registry. Hand grips have been replaced, kickstand and pedals have gone missing and there's plenty of dirt and rust, but looks original otherwise. The tires even hold air! Morrow hub has a date code of K3, which according to @Freqman1's web page makes it the third quarter of 1941. As for the serial, they managed to obliterate most of the first letter when they welded on the chain stays. What's left could be either a "G" or "J", but from your list, the "J" serials were all war-time bikes with black-out parts, so this must be "G". The tires are Goodyear Rib, 26 x 1.375, "For Hooked Edge Rim".

https://vintageamericanbicycles.com/index.php/hub-dating/


----------



## rennfaron

Same bike 








						just trying to find out what a couple of bikes i have there value? | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					






					thecabe.com
				




Let's put a pin in this one. I am tired of it showing up. 😉


----------



## Oilit

rennfaron said:


> Same bike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just trying to find out what a couple of bikes i have there value? | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thecabe.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's put a pin in this one. I am tired of it showing up. 😉



That's the one! It came out of Mauldin SC. I didn't remember it had already been posted, but now it can be added to the list. 😜 And you have to admit, it looks better just putting air in the tires, probably the first time this century!


----------



## rennfaron

That's funny @Oilit because when I saw the bike I thought wait something is different... It was the air in the tires. At first I thought the tires were replaced.


----------



## Oilit

rennfaron said:


> That's funny @Oilit because when I saw the bike I thought wait something is different... It was the air in the tires. At first I thought the tires were replaced.



They'll need to be replaced before anybody takes a ride, there's only 20 psi in them now and that showed enough cracks that it felt like time to stop. But bikes roll much better when the tires aren't dragging on the fenders. 🥰


----------



## SirMike1983

It's a blue tall frame from the look of it. Wish I could find something like that around here!


----------



## RustyHornet

Way cool! Would love that frame size. Nice color too with a Liberty badge to boot! Way neat bike.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

just bought this frame. the ad had this for the serial # 173933 ??. maybe the 1 is supposed to be a i ... I have a complete black ladies prewar that I planned on leaving alone. it has a freewheel and brakes and locking fork which I will need to cut and rethread. I may even put a drum brake up front I had for my B-6.

how many black war-prewar lightweights is too many? I have a BFG, a Liberty and now a Cadillac.

with shipping I paid way too much for just a frame but the girls bike only set me back a about 60 bucks so it will all even out in the end. 🙂


----------



## Oilit

49autocycledeluxe said:


> just bought this frame. the ad had this for the serial # 173933 ??. maybe the 1 is supposed to be a i ... I have a complete black ladies prewar that I planned on leaving alone. it has a freewheel and brakes and locking fork which I will need to cut and rethread. I may even put a drum brake up front I had for my B-6.
> 
> how many black war-prewar lightweights is too many? I have a BFG, a Liberty and now a Cadillac.
> 
> with shipping I paid way too much for just a frame but the girls bike only set me back a about 60 bucks.
> 
> View attachment 1703746
> 
> View attachment 1703748View attachment 1703747



I take it you haven't received the frame yet? An "I" serial sounds right. And we all know there's no such thing as too many.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

I posted like 2 minutes after I paid.

it says it is "sealed". I bet I can fix that.


----------



## Miq

I need to catch up here.

@49autocycledeluxe The Liberty badged Niles Flea Market find bike has dark green fenders and a black frame.  OK.

@Oilit That bike is really sweet.  I love that the rear reflector and blocky LIBERTY down tube decal are still there.  I can't wait to see what you do with it.  

@49autocycledeluxe cool project frame.  You are now at the Platinum level on the New World frequent flyer program.  🤩 
It was built during the period where both EF and NOT EF BB were stamped with "I" serials.  Can you tell from the pics?


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

yes. you can tell from the pics. no EF 🙃

EDIT:  VVVV  look how sloppy that is.  VVVV  .. love it.


----------



## Miq

@SirMike1983 has been building up a New World starting with an "I" serial wartime core and adding a mix of older and newer vintage parts.  I87521 is the latest I series on the list now.








wartime rough finished welds


----------



## Oilit

Looking at the Cadillac that @49autocycledeluxe bought got me wondering exactly when Schwinn started putting the built-in kickstands on the New Worlds? They stopped building the balloon tire bikes during the war and maybe the war-time restrictions prevented the New World getting them, but does anybody know the earliest bike on the list to have one? Or do I need to start digging?


----------



## Miq

Roy was riding a lightweight with an integrated kick in this 1946 ad

* 

*

@schwinnlax added this 1946? B45115 that has an integrated stand.  Before that there are wartime bikes with no stands.




@Jim sciano 's 47 is another one I see on the list that mentions an integrated stand.


----------



## Oilit

Interesting! I see an earlier "C" serial and two "B" serials on the list, did they not have them? I was under the impression that the "A(?)",  "B" and "C" serials were all post-war, but maybe it depends on what you consider post-war. I believe the war-time restrictions were actually relaxed late in 1944, is that right?


----------



## GTs58

Oilit said:


> Interesting! I see an earlier "C" serial and two "B" serials on the list, did they not have them? I was under the impression that the "A(?)",  "B" and "C" serials were all post-war, but maybe it depends on what you consider post-war. I believe the war-time restrictions were actually relaxed late in 1944, is that right?



That's correct, but how much relaxed is the question. Schwinn started producing bikes for retail in 1945 and from what I've researched those were only DX models that I can actually say were earlier than 1946 models. They also had B and C serial numbers. They were full blown EF frames and had built in stands. There is a very good chance Schwinn was also building New Worlds in 1945 but their advancement in the EF'g was way behind the updates that the balloon models had. They still had the chain stays and down tubes hand welded.


----------



## Miq

Oilit said:


> Interesting! I see an earlier "C" serial and two "B" serials on the list, did they not have them? I was under the impression that the "A(?)",  "B" and "C" serials were all post-war, but maybe it depends on what you consider post-war. I believe the war-time restrictions were actually relaxed late in 1944, is that right?




@whopperchopper 's C05489 serial had an integrated stand too.  







The other B serial is @vincev 's stepthru with kids seat.  It also has an integrated stand.


----------



## GTs58

Whopperchoppers has the prewar chain ring and a C serial where vincev's has a B serial and post war chain ring. The New Worlds will probably be one tough cookie to place the time of post war production unless they have a dated SA hub, or crank.


----------



## SirMike1983

You're doing excellent work documenting and charting these bikes. This thread is a very valuable resource for New World evolution.


----------



## Miq

1940 racer that @oldwhizzer posted:















Also included update to @49autocycledeluxe 's I73933 serial showing its "all fillet" brazed BB construction right in the middle of the transition to all EF construction.  The first EF BB is an I serial, the last Fillet BB is an I serial, and the first frame with all EF construction an I serial.  The transition is all there in the onset of the wartime New World production.   @GTs58


----------



## Oilit

Miq said:


> 1940 racer that @oldwhizzer posted:
> View attachment 1711362View attachment 1711363View attachment 1711364
> View attachment 1711365
> View attachment 1711366
> 
> Also included update to @49autocycledeluxe 's I73933 serial showing its "all fillet" brazed BB construction right in the middle of the transition to all EF construction.  The first EF BB is an I serial, the last Fillet BB is an I serial, and the first frame with all EF construction an I serial.  The transition is all there in the onset of the wartime New World production.   @GTs58
> View attachment 1711367
> View attachment 1711368
> View attachment 1711369
> View attachment 1711370
> View attachment 1711371
> View attachment 1711372



Are those Paramount hubs on @oldwhizzer's racer? The "phone dial" hubs had larger axle sections I believe. This is another I picked up that's been converted to a derailleur three speed, not the best shots but the best I've got for now. But if you zoom in the center section of the front hub is different.


----------



## Oilit

Maybe this helps. And @Junkman Bob's bike in post #644 has a good close-up of a rear phone dial hub.









						Withdrawn - ♦️1940 New World Schwinn Project Bike ♦️ | Sell - Trade: Complete Bicycles
					

Kinda cool New World Schwinn here …. Should be a good project for someone… Has schwinn scripted hubs and rear hub is obviously a freewheel … great looking phone dial hub as well … I know an OA bath will do this one justice !!! Rear fender needs luv (rolled ) seat is real cool looking imo …...




					thecabe.com


----------



## Jim sciano

Oilit said:


> Are those Paramount hubs on @oldwhizzer's racer? The "phone dial" hubs had larger axle sections I believe. This is another I picked up that's been converted to a derailleur three speed, not the best shots but the best I've got for now. But if you zoom in the center section of the front hub is different.
> 
> View attachment 1711513
> 
> View attachment 1711514
> 
> View attachment 1711515



Definitely looks like paramount hubs to me.


----------



## SirMike1983

Oilit said:


> Are those Paramount hubs on @oldwhizzer's racer? The "phone dial" hubs had larger axle sections I believe. This is another I picked up that's been converted to a derailleur three speed, not the best shots but the best I've got for now. But if you zoom in the center section of the front hub is different.
> 
> View attachment 1711513
> 
> View attachment 1711514
> 
> View attachment 1711515




The Paramount hub and the regular phone dial indeed have different center section profiles but can look similar from a distance.


----------



## Jim sciano

SirMike1983 said:


> The Paramount hub and the regular phone dial indeed have different center section profiles but can look similar from a distance.



Yeah but whizzers is definitely not the bulky regular one. His definitely looks like the paramount hub to me. I zoomed in a bit. What do you think? The regular ones are the single piece


----------



## Oilit

Jim sciano said:


> Yeah but whizzers is definitely not the bulky regular one. His definitely looks like the paramount hub to me. I zoomed in a bit. What do you think? The regular ones are the single piece  View attachment 1711772



In your close-up, it looks like it even has the hollow axle. They were reducing weight to the absolute minimum. And those rims are definitely not the standard pre-war rims used on the touring bikes.


----------



## Miq

I updated the entry to Paramount hubs.  It's funny because I stared at this 1939 Catalog page for a while when I was contemplating this bike:




Looks like 4045 and 4120 on this bike.  Now that you guys point this out, it seems like the true "telephone dial" hubs have a domed flange while these Paramount hubs seem less domed.

When they say Rear Racing Hub does that mean its fixed drive?  I didn't see any brakes...


----------



## SirMike1983

Jim sciano said:


> Yeah but whizzers is definitely not the bulky regular one. His definitely looks like the paramount hub to me. I zoomed in a bit. What do you think? The regular ones are the single piece  View attachment 1711772




With the narrow center section and hollow axle, that looks like a Paramount hub to me.


----------



## SirMike1983

Miq said:


> I updated the entry to Paramount hubs.  It's funny because I stared at this 1939 Catalog page for a while when I was contemplating this bike:
> View attachment 1714963
> 
> Looks like 4045 and 4120 on this bike.  Now that you guys point this out, it seems like the true "telephone dial" hubs have a domed flange while these Paramount hubs seem less domed.
> 
> When they say Rear Racing Hub does that mean its fixed drive?  I didn't see any brakes...
> 
> View attachment 1714968
> View attachment 1714969
> View attachment 1714970
> View attachment 1714971
> View attachment 1714972
> View attachment 1714973




Exactly so, standard phone dial on the lightweight (single speed freewheel, phone dialer front) has a bulkier center section with a bell at each end so that it has a kind of dog bone look. The Paramount has a narrower, straighter center section.

Non-Paramount phone dialer type:


----------



## Jim sciano

Miq said:


> I updated the entry to Paramount hubs.  It's funny because I stared at this 1939 Catalog page for a while when I was contemplating this bike:
> View attachment 1714963
> 
> Looks like 4045 and 4120 on this bike.  Now that you guys point this out, it seems like the true "telephone dial" hubs have a domed flange while these Paramount hubs seem less domed.
> 
> When they say Rear Racing Hub does that mean its fixed drive?  I didn't see any brakes...
> 
> View attachment 1714968
> View attachment 1714969
> View attachment 1714970
> View attachment 1714971
> View attachment 1714972
> View attachment 1714973



Could be fixed or have the “villiers” brand freewheel on it. I have had a few with that freewheel.


----------



## Oilit

Jim sciano said:


> Could be fixed or have the “villiers” brand freewheel on it. I have had a few with that freewheel.



Did the Villiers freewheel include any kind of brake? Now that @Miq mentions it, freewheels usually come with calipers, and if there's no calipers, then there's a coaster brake, but I don't see any brake of any type. But on a racing bike, maybe that's just unnecessary weight. Did the board track racers use brakes? I've read a little about that era, but there's plenty I don't know. Were they even still running board track races when this bike was built?
It's also interesting that @Miq's list includes Dunlop Lightweight rims as an option. I can't see that front rim well enough to be sure, but that's the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw it. @oldwhizzer was taking this bike to Memory Lane, did it sell?


----------



## SirMike1983

I had a post-war New World with a set of Dunlop special lightweight rims 26 x 1 1/4 (597mm). The level of finishing on the Dunlops is excellent. Front hub was a British-made Airweight with wingnuts, rear was a Sturmey AM medium ratio - a British-style club touring set of wheels if ever there was.


----------



## Oilit

SirMike1983 said:


> I had a post-war New World with a set of Dunlop special lightweight rims 26 x 1 1/4 (597mm). The level of finishing on the Dunlops is excellent. Front hub was a British-made Airweight with wingnuts, rear was a Sturmey AM medium ratio - a British-style club touring set of wheels if ever there was.



Were there 32 spokes in front and 40 in the rear? With all British parts, that would be the most likely. @oldwhizzer's bike has 36 on both wheels, so if it's a Dunlop rim, it must have been made for the American market.


----------



## SirMike1983

32/40


----------



## Miq

Totally missed that your D8727 was new to the list.  Catching up now...

Those D 4digit serial New Worlds always have a 3 piece crank and slopy hand stamped serials.   😀 Cool story and pics from original owner.  


























I see some gold pin stripes still showing though on the frame.  Looking forward to seeing how it cleans up and rides.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

^^^^ that is an outstanding bike! the story makes it even better.


----------



## Miq

@Popeonwheels has been posting pics of this sweet K serial VW1M New World.  It is in great shape.












@Popeonwheels can you take some pics of the hubs and the rear reflector?  

It looks really well preserved and I bet it is quick and rides great.  Glad to see you using it and enjoying it.

There are a few things that don't seem original.  The blocks in the pedals do not look correct for T8s, and the kick stand and chainguard would not have been original with this bike.  The handlebars also seem to have a lot of rise.  ??


----------



## rennfaron

Guy wanted $300 for it. He had recently "serviced" it and tires are modern. Bars, grips, stem, guard all are incorrect and modern. Saddle is a troxel and can't say I have ever seen one of those on a NW. That guard is apparently from the 60s/70s.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

bolt on guard could be vintage aftermarket. ?? wonder what happened to the OG bars and stem?

I'd like to see closeups of the pinstripes.


----------



## cyclingday

This 1939 Ladies Model, Schwinn New World,
got parted out on eBay last week. 
Unfortunately, no pictures were taken of it in its entirety.

















































Early style rear fork ends, and headset.
No peak on the front fender.
Schwinn Superior type, Dural front hub.
Sturmey Archer AW-9 rear three speed hub, with top tube mount shift lever.
Early issue 1940 type Schwinn brake levers, with unusual patent numbers stamped into the bodies.
I hadn’t ever seen that before?
Early type, Schwinn Superior/Zephyr rims.
It was definitely an interesting bike, for the archive.
Too bad, we never got a look at it before it hit the chopping block.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

cyclingday said:


> This 1939 Ladies Model, Schwinn New World,
> got parted out on eBay last week.
> Unfortunately, no pictures were taken of it in its entirety.
> 
> It was definitely an interesting bike, for the archive.
> Too bad, we never got a look at it before it hit the chopping block.



do you have a link to the latest listing? I posted this bike earlier this month, it was listed as a 1947 by the original seller.. I saved the listing, and was thinking of getting it, I did not see that the fenders were included. 😩 ..  only $125.00 plus shipping... I snoozed and loozed as it sold that evening after i saw it.. a fellow Caber PM'd me that he bought it for the reflector. I emailed the original seller about wheels and whatnot with no real reply.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

prewar "1947" (1939) Schwinn ladies frame on ebay... | Lightweight Schwinn Bicycles
					

I was looking at this one on ebay, someone got it this morning.  had I noticed it had the fenders I would have snagged it 😩  listed as a 1947  fenders and chain guard would have been worth the price for me  1939 serial #       https://www.ebay.com/itm/234815039401?campid=5335809022




					thecabe.com


----------



## Miq

It was an interesting bike. The other C serial bikes have mostly been racers.  Like bobcycles mentioned in the thread you linked, it’s the earliest ladies bike we’ve seen and has some nice features like 3 piece crank, 3 speed rear hub, and hand brakes.


----------



## SirMike1983

That early black bike looked to have an upgrade to a Williams British-made crank set. It was certainly a step above the base model variation.


----------



## REDAIR13

Looking for info. Just found this one with a 3 speed setup? Late 30s? Early 40s?


----------



## Miq

From the black bike above:



from @cyclingday






@REDAIR13 That looks like a 49 New World.  Can you tell if the first letter is an F?


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

REDAIR13 said:


> Looking for info. Just found this one with a 3 speed setup? Late 30s? Early 40s?
> 
> View attachment 1761892




your bike is post war, 1946 - 1951. I can't read the serial #


----------



## REDAIR13

49autocycledeluxe said:


> your bike is post war, 1946 - 1951. I can't read the serial #



B091207


----------



## GTs58

REDAIR13 said:


> B091207



Looks like an F. 5-16-1949 stamping.


----------



## REDAIR13

Hub pics


----------



## SirMike1983

March 1949 hub. Probably a 1949 bike. F-serial would be a possibility, going off the chart. B would mean they rolled it over back to A. Probably an F is right.


----------



## 49autocycledeluxe

46-51 are all the same group of parts as far as I know.


----------



## Miq

@Oilit 's Black F serial also had a 49 dated 3 Speed Sturmey.


----------



## REDAIR13

More photos after a brief cleanup. Only had to change one tube and it was the original at that! Looks to be a 49 with blackout sturmey archer hardware and idler clamp. Chrome cable guide though. Cleaned up well and it should look much better once I get a bit more time.  I think this is as original as one can get.


----------



## Oilit

REDAIR13 said:


> More photos after a brief cleanup. Only had to change one tube and it was the original at that! Looks to be a 49 with blackout sturmey archer hardware and idler clamp. Chrome cable guide though. Cleaned up well and it should look much better once I get a bit more time.  I think this is as original as one can get.
> 
> View attachment 1762253
> 
> View attachment 1762254
> 
> View attachment 1762255
> 
> View attachment 1762256
> 
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That's really nice! Congratulations!


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## SirMike1983

That silver faced shifter was a short-lived item only lasting for 1949 and 50 as far as I can find on the schwinns.


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## WillWork4Parts

Just wanted to add this oddball to the mix. Bike was parted out due to original owners daughter trying to clean some of the bike with what could have been a brillo pad...Hideous scratches on what is normally resilient chrome. 🙄 Also, the original owner had the brakes, cables, levers, shifter, tires, and grips updated in the early 70s at a Schwinn shop.
Note that it had some blackout parts, axle nuts and cable pulley.
Drop outs, headtube(both joints), and BB to seat tube were the only electro forged welds on the bike...unless you count the 3 round spot welds for the lower fender tab. Every other joint was brazed.


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## Miq

@REDAIR13 initial cleanup came out great!  Looks like a nice ride.  Thanks for posting more pics of it and the details like the silver faced shift trigger and cycle counter.  Cool stuff.

@WillWork4Parts thank you for adding this latest post war ladies to the list before it completely dissolved.  Sometimes we only get pieces to study.

I added the C serial black ladies bike from @cyclingday and @49autocycledeluxe to the list too.


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