# Condundrum: Restoration vs Renovation



## T-Cruise (May 11, 2021)

Hoping folks can provide rational arguments for why I should choose to restore my ~early 40s Monark Rocket as opposed to modernize it. I am relatively new to the cult of classic bikes, but have a general and veteran appreciation for well made things of the past (houses, tools, art, rugs, etc.). Thus, I've some idea about what might be the arguments for and against. I am confident, however, others here have thought more deeply and intentionally on the issue and so might help guide my decision one way or another.

Although such a question is likely to provoke passions, I'm seeking principles, theories and justifications rather than ad hominem polemics.

Context: Although I have not finishing researching it, my recently acquired bike appears to have all original parts with the exception of the front truss rods, which were recently hand-crafted. The frame and parts are solid and in good working order. While I appreciate the previous owner's creative enthusiasm, it was given a paint job unsympathetic to the period that is not to my particular taste. Pre-paint pictures suggest it did not have much original paint left on it.

Here are the ideas I'm mulling, ranked in order of how I'm currently inclined: 

Strip the paint down to raw metal, sand and polish to a chrome shine, and protect with a good 2K clear coat, reminiscent of those beautiful Silver Kings; add a repro/repop tank (it may not have originally had one as it doesn't appear to be the deluxe model and an original isn't in my budget presently); either keep original handlebars and seat (preserving the flowing lines of the bike) or replace with medium ape-hanger bars and a black banana seat, two modifications I found to make the ride more comfortable, powerful and agile; add a period-and-model-correct springer fork or springing truss.
Strip and repaint original colors and design, add/change nothing other than finding period-correct truss bars.
Strip and repaint to a color of my choosing, replace original handlebars and seat (but keep in storage) with medium ape-hanger bars and a black banana seat, add a springer fork or springer truss.

I presume--but not to constrain--the elements of discussion will include: 

preserving and investing in long-term monetary value
monetary value *vs.* aesthetic value (which, we may debate, at least has some subjective determination that will yield differing views)
prioritization of preservation of historical accuracy and style *vs.* celebrating creativity and the evolution of style by melding past & present
purists' preservation sensibility *vs.* comfort and utility (I've found that the larger cruiser frame repurposed with banana seat and ape-hangers to be the most comfortable ride), pedaling while both sitting and standing

Thoughts?


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## rustjunkie (May 11, 2021)

let's see it


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## T-Cruise (May 11, 2021)

I'm hesitant to post current pics as I didn't want to offend the previous owner, but will definitely share once stripped.


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## BOB LOBLAW (May 11, 2021)

TLDR


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## rustjunkie (May 11, 2021)

T-Cruise said:


> I'm hesitant to post current pics as I didn't want to offend the previous owner, but will definitely share once stripped.




well if it's already been messed with have at it.


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## T-Cruise (May 11, 2021)

BOB LOBLAW said:


> TLDR



To sum:
Seeking rationale for various options on a ~41 Monark Rocket:
- Strip, polish, clear coat, add repro tank, springer fork, banana seat and apehanger bars
or
- Strip, polish, clear coat, add nothing
or
- strip, repaint period-correct, add nothing
or
- strip repaint any preferred color, add springer fork, banana seat and apehanger bars


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## T-Cruise (May 11, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> well if it's already been messed with have at it.



So your premise is: Pure preservation isn't worth it because of the paint job, making irrelevant any attempt to restore to original, period-correct?


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## 49autocycledeluxe (May 11, 2021)

I'd say you are taking this much too seriously. it has already been repainted, so do whatever you want, it will never be original again.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (May 11, 2021)

I'd guess the general opinion on the Cabe would be restore to original. I figure any pre war bike that gets modified will eventually be a parts bike for a resto or to upgrade an original.


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## Dave Stromberger (May 11, 2021)

I agree with others in that if It's already been messed with.... repainted, etc. Then you are free to do anything you want without any moral worries about ruining something of historic value. The bike isn't a rare one, so even extreme customizing is okay.  Make it your own, if that's what you want.


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## rustjunkie (May 11, 2021)

T-Cruise said:


> So your premise is: Pure preservation isn't worth it because of the paint job, making irrelevant any attempt to restore to original, period-correct?




yeah pretty much. 
haven't seen the bike but in general a monark rocket doesn't tend to be a rare or particularly desirable bicycle, so if it had anything really going for it original condition would be it. 

you'd be terribly upside-down with a "restoration", just do what you want with it and enjoy it.


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## T-Cruise (May 11, 2021)

All helpful, thanks...though not sure I understand what you mean by "upside-down."


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## Dave Stromberger (May 11, 2021)

T-Cruise said:


> All helpful, thanks...though not sure I understand what you mean by "upside-down."



You'd have more money into it than you could get reselling it. 

A true "museum quality" correct restoration could cost around $3k to do... professional paint, chrome, saddle, correct original replacement parts, etc. for a resale value of half that.


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## T-Cruise (May 11, 2021)

Gotcha.

TheCABE collective has heuristically programmed an algorithmic computation for me...

Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.


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## Dave Stromberger (May 11, 2021)

T-Cruise said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> TheCABE collective has heuristically programmed an algorithmic computation for me...
> 
> Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.



Haha.


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## SoBayRon (May 11, 2021)

T, I did take the time to read your well written and meticulously crafted post. At the end of the day, this bike is not original anymore and you can do any of the things mentioned in your post. The only limiting factors could be budget and parts availability. Do what YOU want to do to it and ride it!


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## T-Cruise (May 11, 2021)

Glad you got it...for a second there I thought you might not and shut me down...


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## Dave Stromberger (May 11, 2021)

T-Cruise said:


> Glad you got it...for a second there I thought you might not and shut me down...



For anyone who doesn't... its a quote from the movie 2001: A Space Odyseey where Hal (the red eye in my avatar) is talking to Dave.


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## T-Cruise (May 11, 2021)

Dave Stromberger said:


> For anyone who doesn't... its a quote from the movie 2001: A Space Odyseey where Hal (the red eye in my avatar) is talking to Dave.



And Hal = Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer


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## rustjunkie (May 11, 2021)




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## Dave Stromberger (May 11, 2021)




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## T-Cruise (May 11, 2021)

man, Clarke and Kubrick were so scarily prescient...

Thanks all for the excellent input, most appreciated.


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## tacochris (May 13, 2021)

_Before anyone gets mad at me, understand that I love and respect ALL bike builds and this is not me saying I hate modernized old bikes.  When I do not like what someone has done with a bike, you will never see me actually say it or mention it because I know everyone has their own taste.  This is merely my personal preference...._

I look at bikes how I look at old cars.  When I meet someone who says they like antique cars but they changed the motor to something electronic, added modern suspension, added modern seating with bluetooth and surround sound and did a modern metallic paint job.  I would suggest they don't really love antique cars, they like an antique look but cant handle living the antique life.  You wanted a modern car with an old body....
I see it the same way when someone buys a gorgeous old bike, removes the fenders, adds gears, modern seats etc etc.  They want the look of an old bike but none of the hard work of riding one as it was always intended.  

Me personally, and I do mean personally....I prefer not only the old bike, but the old bike experience as it was when the bike was new.  I want to ride the past, not just look at it.  I struggle up hills, love the rattle of the original parts, the feel of the old grips, the squeak of the old saddle and feel of the old upholstery.  I even go so far as to ride on original tires when ever I can reasonably and safely do so.  I will never let age or soreness get in the way of my bike looking and feeling how I want it to be.  I have learned and built up a tolerance to the old ways and prefer it that way.

It all comes down to this:  What do YOU want out of the experience?  Do you want an old bike with modern comfort rideability?  Do you want an old bike that looks like it did back in 19XX and rides the same?  Either one is perfectly ok as long as when you park it at the end of the ride you think "man that was great!"

It can be very difficult to navigate the delicate scene that is the old bike scene and still care what others think, so whatever decision you make, make it with your whole heart with your experience in mind and let the wind hit your knuckles on the ride out.


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## TWDay (May 15, 2021)

I have, over the years of doing many projects, determined that anything that is not completely original by the time I get it should be fully restored. That includes the paint. There is no rational reason to renovate or refurbish something that is not as it was when it was new. A full restoration is the only way to represent it as it was designed. This goes for cars, trucks, vans, boats and bicycles. Anything less is half-a**ed. But that is my humble opinion.


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## gkeep (May 15, 2021)

This is an age old question whether car collecting, motorcycles, antique toys, trains, bikes. Seem like the vintage toy truck crowd has a lot of folks doing quality full on restorations these days, even on Matchbox and Hot Wheels cars.

I have thought about doing a Silver King tribute with an early 50s Monark frame I found. It has a springer fork that may not be original to the bike. Someone  already removed all the old paint and partially primed and then left it lying around to rust. Been wrestling with the same thoughts, give it a rattle can repaint to an original color, strip down to bare metal and polish with 1000 grit, strip down and give it a patina rust treatment then wipe down with boiled linseed oil or maybe attempt a patina repaint to give it a fake aged finish? With no original finish the real value as a collector bike is long gone and now it's value is as a rider which is what I prefer.

My dad was an antique toy and train collector and I grew up hearing these discussions among collectors. In the 60s and 70s no one ever restored an original finish, that was everything. Some collected perfect in original box with original finish and some preferred the patina and a toy that had been loved and played with. The funny thing was spotting modern repro cast iron toys in antique shops that had been intentionally buried in wet sand or some other moisture to rust off the old paint and try to pass it off as an original toy from 80-120 years ago. The quality of the castings, file marks and hollow axles always gave the faked repro away. With the trains the only thing to fix were the motors to keep them running thought a few people enjoyed restoring them with original paint, decals, replacing broken parts , etc.

Anyway, have fun with it and make it a rider you'll enjoy. It'll have a new story and anything you do is better than it ending up as scrap metal!


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## ian (May 15, 2021)

I personally would service it and ride it as you would any other bike. That's my take on it.


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## CycleTruck211 (May 15, 2021)

Most times, even if the bike is a repaint, I perform the bike shop type repairs, to make the bike operational, and then decide from there.

Bottom line; ask yourself who owns the bike now, then do whatever makes you happy.


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## Jeff54 (May 15, 2021)

Seems to me, U pre-programmed your conditional terms in your form of query while, Tottering the  ask. . Moreover, justifying your intent and expecting a conflict of interest in a Classic crowd, creating nonsense in the sphere.

U new Yer terms before asking. So, let's see U, mirror finish raw steal, or rather; gud luck wit dat.


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## Karmguy (May 15, 2021)




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## Karmguy (May 15, 2021)

I'm a fan of full restoration if it's justified. I just finished this 1953 Thunderjet 24" Boys bike. It was a wreck when I found it, it was begging to be seen again looking pretty.


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## 1936PEDALER (May 16, 2021)

It’s only original once.
  Now that that’s out the window,make it what you want. If you modernize something keep the OE parts


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## jimbo53 (May 16, 2021)

Do what makes you happy. That’s why it’s called a hobby. Enjoy the process, accept the fact that you will be very quickly upside down with it going the resto route, put way more time in the project than you thought, learn from the CABE and then ride it like you stole it! Oh, and it will be guaranteed that another project bike will surprisingly  present itself and then you will be well on your way to be a hopeless bike collector, over-run with boxes of spare parts, a large collection of original “display” tires, and a depleted bank account. Welcome!


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## RPO469 (May 22, 2021)

I went through the same conundrum within the last year.  Being a car guy I understand both scenario.  I own an all original 1961 sports car & am currently building a late 60’s pickup to my liking since it wasn’t all original.  My bike had been repainted by the previous owner, so it wasn’t original an longer.  That opened the door for my creativity.  I think it turned out fantastic.  On the other side of the coin I picked up an original paint Higgins.  I am going to clean it, so all the maintenance & then keep it a “rat” bike.  Enjoy!


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## JimRoy (May 26, 2021)

I love the bike hobby and have fun doing it.  One of the main reasons I like it is because it keeps me off the couch and my mind busy.  If it weren’t bikes it would be something else.  Do what you want and whatever you can afford.  If a bike is all original keep in mind that it’s only that way once.  Most original bike projects I’ve started are too far gone so it doesn’t matter.  There are some projects that you can remove the re-paint and expose the original.  I did this to a 39 Hawthorne and repainted the drop stand and fender brackets.   Talking about a Diamond in the Rough.  The original red was under that nasty silver.  Most importantly have fun.  JimRoy


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## Arnold Ziffel (May 26, 2021)

I would rather have something that is both presentable and comfortable rather than 100% original.
I'd rather have nice looking paintwork in a color (or two colors) that I really like even if it isn't factory correct.
I do not keep anything with weathered dog-doo looking original patina.    It is just not my thing.
Yes, if somebody is seeking something specific and really old,  and I have seen it somewhere,  I will alert them to where to go get it.
If it is free, and I know a friend  (or a friend of a friend..)   who  is  seeking  that  particular  weathered ancient dog-doo looking 100% original or mostly original bicycle,    I  will load it in the car if I'm not driving the two seater  and  then  I'll give the bike to my friend.      

I realized a long time ago that you can realistically only have so many  bicycles,  cars,  boats, houses,  sets of golf clubs,  guitars, motorcycles,.....  ,and  you should concentrate on that limited number that is nice enough to make you the happiest.     I certainly enjoy restoration projects and customization projects but again with those I  do limit  them  to  perhaps maybe one or possibly two at any one time.     It keeps me focused and motivated in  completing  the project  within the timeframe  I had established.    If  I  become  disinterested  in  a project and make no forward progress within six months for whatever reason,   I will  sell,  donate   or otherwise  get rid of it.        From my perspective,   I  view this  as  fun  and  certainly as  a hobby,  rather than viewing it like the CPA  Comptroller of  a  manufacturing concern.           This is what works best for me,  but  as my wife has always said to me for decades,  you know you are  both  creative,  weird  and  really organized  which  is way beyond normal weird.      I have to have organized materials,  and  an organized plan and  a  relatively uncluttered work and storage area in order  for  me   to   get my best results.      The way that I look at it is that  it  is  something  that will be  at least nice enough or  why even bother if it will still have the appearance of dog-doo.       Original is great if it also looks really good but  original with "weather beaten patina" is the look that it deserves to be set out on the curbside trashpile on trash pickup day.    I realize that this is just my opinion and  that others can have differing opinions  and not be wrong.       That is the point----------there is no right or wrong----------decide what makes you the happiest  and  do that.         It is your bike and you'll be riding it and having fun with it.       Sure, if you're buying or otherwise obtaining  a  particular collectible bicycle (or whatever collectible automobile or item, etc.. ) you should be aware that  certain deviations from stock original  could  potentially lessen the resale  market value.      For example a  1965 something like a Ferrari 330 GT    and  a  something like a 1965 Corvair convertible.............................. with modifications and changes to the 1965 Corvair could make it worth way more than an otherwise a  very nice condition all original 1965 Corvair.
Now if you had a '65 Ferrrari  or  a  1965 Yenko Stinger,  you'd want everything completely original.

Above all,  you should remember the old Burger King ad slogan  from  the mid-Seventies: "HAVE IT YOUR WAY".
If you aren't having fun,  you're doing it wrong.
I see a red bike and I don't necessarilly want to paint it black.............................but maybe I wanna paint it some other color...


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## TWDay (Jun 16, 2021)

This is just my opinion. I look at the rarity of the bike first. Are they difficult to find? Can they be easily found in good or very good original condition if I wanted one.  Second I look at its completeness. Is it missing hard to find parts? Will it cost too much to restore it? After you ask yourself these questions then look at what yo intend to do with the bike. I just went through the same thing with a 1964 Cycle Truck. Due to some rust issues and the wheelbase being to short I have decided to modify AND restore it. The only thing that won't be original when I'm done is the wheelbase. Excuse me, it will be back to its original look, but it won't be original. Its only original once.


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## spleeft (Jun 19, 2021)

T, I went through the same thoughts when I purchased my first old Schwinn last winter. I quickly realized I wanted a vintage bike that brought back memories of my childhood, was fun and comfortable to ride and still had the qualities of the original bike. So i opted to keep original paint / pantina , wheels, and went with a more compfy saddle, longer seat post and apes. I still completley disasembled , cleaned , greased , rebuilt hubs and wheels , etc all the while thinking about the peolpe and mechanics that this bike had been in contact with through its long life . Couldn't be happier !
  In your spot I like option #4!!!!!
Now lets see some pics bro !!!!!


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