# Official: A real Harley Davidson or a fake? That is the question...



## fordmike65

Since there seems to be a rash of put-together and fake Harley Davidson bicycles lately, let's post up questionable HD's you've seen in the past, currently for sale or supposed "Barn-Finds". Some are quite believable with correct looking HD chainrings and amazing created patina meant to fool a collector out of his money. I don't usually encourage this here...but feel free to pick them apart.




This popped up and a potential buyer is asking for help verifying its authenticity. I say no, but then again I don't know much about these.


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## JO BO

No...it’s not a Davis frame . Chainring May be the only authentic piece on the bike for HD but I would have to have a closer look. Thanks for posting.


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## Freqman1

Nothing there says Davis/HD to me except maybe the ring. V/r Shawn


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## bike

ring appears to be on backwards-"dish" to the inside.


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## cyclingday

Maybe a H-D cease and desist Shelby?
Just a guess.


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## Archie Sturmer

The banded joint and the tight seat post cluster (notched bolt), the bend (kink) of the top tube, and even the font of the stamping on the bottom bracket give a Westfield look to the taller frame motorbike.


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## New Mexico Brant

fordmike65 said:


> This popped up and a potential buyer is asking for help verifying its authenticity. I say no, but then again I don't know much about these.



I love how a few different folks on Facebook are telling the guy it is a bonafide Harley and that he should buy it.  Instant experts popping up everywhere!  Didn't the last one that appeared here last month have a fake chain ring with a bevelled edge facing inward?


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## fordmike65

New Mexico Brant said:


> I love how a few folks on Facebook are telling the guy it is a bonafide Harley and that he should buy it.  Instant experts popping up everywhere!  Didn't the last one that appeared here last month have a fake chain ring with a bevelled edge facing inward?



Ha! Yup. I tried to find that post here on the Cabe earlier but couldn't find it. I let the potential buyer know about The Cabe and recommended he come here for info.


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## fordmike65

This one?









						Antique Prewar TOC Harley Davidson Dayton Davis Built Complete Homage Bicycle | Stuff on eBay, Craigslist, Facebook etc.
					

Antique Prewar TOC Harley Davidson Dayton Davis Built Complete Homage Bicycle On Ebay  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Prewar-TOC-Harley-Davidson-Dayton-Davis-Built-Complete-Homage-Bicycle/254882879566?




					thecabe.com


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## New Mexico Brant

fordmike65 said:


> Ha! Yup. I tried to find that post here on the Cabe earlier but couldn't find it. I let the potential buyer know about The Cabe and recommended he come here for info.



I think it has one of those titles: "Need Help... or What is This."  It makes it nearly impossible to reference without spending hours searching.  Especially with the current search function problems that key on every word.


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## fordmike65

This?









						1917? Harley-Davidson Bicycle | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

Hello!  Wondering if anyone has any information on the Harley-Davidson wood rim bicycle. Seems to be a 1917-1921? era bike. Wondering what year the bike is what is likely after market/original... seat, light, fenders, kick stand?  Also curious if anyone has an opinion on value. Let me know if...




					thecabe.com


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## New Mexico Brant

fordmike65 said:


> This one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Antique Prewar TOC Harley Davidson Dayton Davis Built Complete Homage Bicycle | Stuff on eBay, Craigslist, Facebook etc.
> 
> 
> Antique Prewar TOC Harley Davidson Dayton Davis Built Complete Homage Bicycle On Ebay  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Prewar-TOC-Harley-Davidson-Dayton-Davis-Built-Complete-Homage-Bicycle/254882879566?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thecabe.com



No, it was a kid's bike.  There was also a third truss frame one in the last 5 or 6 weeks that also was problematic.


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## fordmike65

New Mexico Brant said:


> No, it was a kid's bike.  There was also a third truss frame one in the last 5 or 6 weeks that also was problematic.



Here's the juvenile "HD"

Thread 'Harley Davidson Bike Help' https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/harley-davidson-bike-help.186058/


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## New Mexico Brant

There really should be a Harley Davidson specific thread.  These random problematic bikes could be moved into the thread so they can be analyzed and compared together more easily.

Maybe the truss frame one has the wonky thread title, I can't find that one.  That makes four bad ones in almost as many weeks.


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## fordmike65

New Mexico Brant said:


> There really should be a Harley Davidson specific thread.  These random problematic bikes could be moved into the thread so they can be analyzed and compared together more easily.



We could make this thread dedicated to questionable Harley bicycles? Since there seem to be so many fakes and put together HD's out there? The title is quite fitting...


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## New Mexico Brant

fordmike65 said:


> We could make this thread dedicated to questionable Harley bicycles? Since there seem to be so many fakes and put together HD's out there? The title is quite fitting...



Agreed; You may want to edit the title to include Harley so it will pop up in a search.


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## Archie Sturmer

We are told that website operations and maintenance are burdensome enough, without the extra good ideas.
Yes, it would be a great idea to have a means of combining all of the HD-not threads into a single volume.

I was just thinking the other day that it would also be nice to clean up the site by deleting stale posts that say “bump” or just a word “thanks” (maybe replace with a thanks button?).


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## Superman1984

I'd be willing to delete some of my clustering unused contributing threads if it matters. Not opposed to it 
@Dave Stromberger if enough people do that would it be beneficial?


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## Freqman1

we had a Flying Merkel only tread which morphed into a Miami general thread. There is a Davis thread but you have to pick through it for the HD stuff. Re: useless posts if people would use the “like” button more instead of trying to bump their post count it would cut down on a lot of clutter. V/r Shawn


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## mike j

For some strange reason, "Now there's the Huffy calling the Huffman, Harley" popped into my head.


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## fordmike65

Antique Prewar TOC Harley Davidson Dayton Davis Built Complete Homage Bicycle | Stuff on eBay, Craigslist, Facebook etc.
					

Antique Prewar TOC Harley Davidson Dayton Davis Built Complete Homage Bicycle On Ebay  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Prewar-TOC-Harley-Davidson-Dayton-Davis-Built-Complete-Homage-Bicycle/254882879566?




					thecabe.com
				

































https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Pr...omage-Bicycle-/254882879566?campid=5335809022


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## fordmike65

1917? Harley-Davidson Bicycle | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

Hello!  Wondering if anyone has any information on the Harley-Davidson wood rim bicycle. Seems to be a 1917-1921? era bike. Wondering what year the bike is what is likely after market/original... seat, light, fenders, kick stand?  Also curious if anyone has an opinion on value. Let me know if...




					thecabe.com


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## fordmike65

How about an HD Truss frame? I'm not sure if the owner is a Cabe member, but he stated it is genuine. I'd love to see some better pics.


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## Superman1984

What's the most distinguishing things about Harley Davidson bicycles through the years?


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## Superman1984

I haven't seen anything of the sorts but interested to know should I ever come across a possible true HD or a clone


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## fordmike65

fordmike65 said:


> How about an HD Truss frame? I'm not sure if the owner is a Cabe member, but he stated it is genuine. I'd love to see some better pics.
> 
> View attachment 1373469



The bike is stashed behind several others,
so it's not easily accessible. Here are a few pics the owner was able to snap for me.


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## JO BO

Start with the serial number.....if it isn’t at the bottom of the BB running tire to tire in direction it’s a red flag to begin with.


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## BigE

JO BO said:


> Start with the serial number.....if it isn’t at the bottom of the BB running tire to tire in direction it’s a red flag to begin with.





fordmike65 said:


> How about an HD Truss frame? I'm not sure if the owner is a Cabe member, but he stated it is genuine. I'd love to see some better pics.
> 
> View attachment 1373469


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## fordmike65

fordmike65 said:


> The bike is stashed behind several others,
> so it's not easily accessible. Here are a few pics the owner was able to snap for me.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1373797
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> View attachment 1373798
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> View attachment 1373799
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> View attachment 1373800



What do the experts have to say about this specimen? Looks correct to my untrained eye...


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## mikecuda

fordmike65 said:


> We could make this thread dedicated to questionable Harley bicycles? Since there seem to be so many fakes and put together HD's out there? The title is quite fitting...



1 so called one on Ebay now.  and they are bidding on it.  Over $1,300 as of this post.        I don't think it is one.


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## Goldenindian

To me...the truss frame looks Davis made. 
the other two...NOT Harley...diamond frame started its life as a Dayton...so Davis made but not Harley...black bike not Davis made.


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## JO BO

fordmike65 said:


> What do the experts have to say about this specimen? Looks correct to my untrained eye...



I’m not an expert by any means but would say  the frame appears genuine. Lots of incorrect parts though like wrong fenders, bars/stem,pump,one pedal(rat trap) seat? Missing stand clip. I can’t see the rear hub for make/model. Would need better pics of chain ring and hubs They were offered in 2 frame sizes 20” and 22” most years and a 24” in 1918 If this frame is correct we are dealing with a different frame size then all the lit depicts as the arch bar drops lower onto the bottom bar than illustrated model.


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## fordmike65

JO BO said:


> I’m not an expert by any means but would say  the frame appears genuine. Lots of incorrect parts though like wrong fenders, bars/stem,pump,one pedal(rat trap) seat? Missing stand clip. I can’t see the rear hub for make/model. Would need better pics of chain ring and hubs.
> Rear wheel is incorrect as the front wheel is proper spoke count of 36 but rear should only be 28 spoke count. They were offered in 2 frame sizes 20” and 22”  If this frame is correct we are dealing with a different frame size then all the lit depicts as the arch bar drops lower onto the bottom bar than illustrated model.



Yes, the owner did add that he hung period parts on it, tho not correct, to get it on the road.


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## Dick Rath

My understanding is that Harley Davidson, over the years, contracted with a number of other builders besides Davis to build their bicycles.
I would suggest that what increases the value of  Davis built Harley Davidson bicycles, as with many things, is their rarity.  I've been told by
respected collectors and historians that two of the key features that Harley Davidson insisted be part of frames that were to become 
Harley Davidson models were a split bottom bracket / crank hanger with left and right side bearing-race clamp screws,  and signature HD forged
drive sprockets. Two of the companies that I was told built frames for Harley Davidson were Shelby and Columbia.  Attached to their frames were 
a pair of rain gutter fenders with the front fender incorporating riveted on tail-end side skirts, extended handlebars on men's models. Also on certain
men's models were tubular "tanks" with a tapered tail end and a removable styled forward end piece for battery access.  On a restoration project I once competed on a 1917 men's model which, as found, had a badly bent drive sprocket that I replaced with a near perfect reproduction version that, after nickel plating and polishing, could not be distinguished from an original. So as not to misrepresent the bike to the buyer I disclosed the fact
of the reproduction sprocket when I presented the bike for sale but I doubt anyone could have ever discovered the sprocket was not original.


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## Archie Sturmer

So the black(?) bike in post #35 looks like a *1926*-D *Westfield* built motorbike, not sure about the fork; and the chain tensioner looks like the _Columbia_ style; but I think that the intent of the thread might have been to limit direct posts to those bicycles with either a HD badge, a HD sprocket, or a _Motocyke_ decal; and links to other threads, if applicable.


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## Freqman1

mikecuda said:


> Here is my bike frame I just dug out.  Is it a Dayton or Davis.  Let's talk about it.            Skiptooth chain still attached and rear adjuster still in frame.  I did not try a 28" wheel on it.  Cooling off outside quick.
> 
> View attachment 1376444
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> View attachment 1376445
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> View attachment 1376446
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> View attachment 1376447
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> View attachment 1376448
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> View attachment 1376449
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> View attachment 1376450



This is not a Davis frame and no way related to HD.


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## Freqman1

Dick Rath said:


> My understanding is that Harley Davidson, over the years, contracted with a number of other builders besides Davis to build their bicycles.
> I would suggest that what increases the value of  Davis built Harley Davidson bicycles, as with many things, is their rarity.  I've been told by
> respected collectors and historians that two of the key features that Harley Davidson insisted be part of frames that were to become
> Harley Davidson models were a split bottom bracket / crank hanger with left and right side bearing-race clamp screws,  and signature HD forged
> drive sprockets. Two of the companies that I was told built frames for Harley Davidson were Shelby and Columbia.  Attached to their frames were
> a pair of rain gutter fenders with the front fender incorporating riveted on tail-end side skirts, extended handlebars on men's models. Also on certain
> men's models were tubular "tanks" with a tapered tail end and a removable styled forward end piece for battery access.  On a restoration project I once competed on a 1917 men's model which, as found, had a badly bent drive sprocket that I replaced with a near perfect reproduction version that, after nickel plating and polishing, could not be distinguished from an original. So as not to misrepresent the bike to the buyer I disclosed the fact
> of the reproduction sprocket when I presented the bike for sale but I doubt anyone could have ever discovered the sprocket was not original.



Dick,
     I believe you have been sorely misinformed. Davis was the only builder of HD bikes--not counting the modern stuff. For people that really study these bikes a fake (repo) chain ring is easy to spot most of the time as with the many fake head badges. There is a complete thread on Davis built bikes here https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/show-your-davis-built-bicycles.20560/ if you read through these 81 pages of posts you should have a good idea of what right looks like. I have only seen a few HD restorations that were accurate but most I've seen are poor attempts--same with Indian and Flying Merkel. Hell most don't even start with the right frame and fork as evidenced in this thread. What makes these motorcycle related bikes expensive is original bikes are scarce but more importantly desirable by both bicycle and motorcycle collectors. I can't say this enough but if you are considering buying one of these bikes study the threads here devoted to these bikes and know what you are buying. Chasing parts for these is not cheap and in some cases damn near impossible-try finding a pair of aluminum Indian pedals with red scripted blocks! V/r Shawn


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## mikecuda

Freqman1 said:


> Dick,
> I believe you have been sorely misinformed. Davis was the only builder of HD bikes--not counting the modern stuff. For people that really study these bikes a fake (repo) chain ring is easy to spot most of the time as with the many fake head badges. There is a complete thread on Davis built bikes here https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/show-your-davis-built-bicycles.20560/ if you read through these 81 pages of posts you should have a good idea of what right looks like. I have only seen a few HD restorations that were accurate but most I've seen are poor attempts--same with Indian and Flying Merkel. Hell most don't even start with the right frame and fork as evidenced in this thread. What makes these motorcycle related bikes expensive is original bikes are scarce but more importantly desirable by both bicycle and motorcycle collectors. I can't say this enough but if you are considering buying one of these bikes study the threads here devoted to these bikes and know what you are buying. Chasing parts for these is not cheap and in some cases damn near impossible-try finding a pair of aluminum Indian pedals with red scripted blocks! V/r Shawn



Excellent advice.   I'll read over the thread you suggested.  THX


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## Archie Sturmer

I believe that confusion over authenticity may be a boom for those who restore bicycles for profit; and a bane to those who might collect or purchase.  One would think that restorers would already be somewhat aware of the rights and wrongs, but I have been advised, regarding ethics or integrity, to be less certain and to presume any “mistakes” are by “accident” (ugh).


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## mikecuda

Archie Sturmer said:


> So the black(?) bike in post #35 looks like a *1926*-D *Westfield* built motorbike, not sure about the fork; and the chain tensioner looks like the _Columbia_ style; but I think that the intent of the thread might have been to limit direct posts to those bicycles with either a HD badge, a HD sprocket, or a _Motocyke_ decal; and links to other threads, if applicable.



THX for the good info.      I'm building a Motocyke for my Collection.  Tribute bike.


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## Archie Sturmer

mikecuda said:


> THX for the good info.      I'm building a Motocyke for my Collection.  Tribute bike.



I believe that the Westfield would be a better candidate frame for an “*Indian*” tribute bike; and although the Indian head badge (repro) may be easier to find than HD, the HD sprocket (repro) may be easier to find than an Indian 11-spokes sprocket.


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## Trickmachine

Hi guys,
I was told this would be the place to post some pictures of a potential Harley Bicycle, I have no idea what I have. I honestly just dig the bike, it won't hurt my feelings either way. I'm a 3rd generation machinist and just love looking at the quality of these old bicycles. Please let me know if you can point me in the right direction to identify this bike. Thanks in advance


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## Trickmachine

Here is a few more pics


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## Archie Sturmer

Trickmachine said:


> I was told this would be the place to post some pictures of a potential Harley Bicycle, I have no idea what I have.



Looks like a 1927-E Westfield “*Junior* *Roadster*” — with junior simply meaning that it is not a double bar frame like a motorbike; or unlike a diamond frame roadster, it has a drop bar frame.


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## New Mexico Brant

Trickmachine said:


> Please let me know if you can point me in the right direction to identify this bike.



Not a real Harley Davidson; here is another example of an old bike with an HD ring being placed on to make a scrappy bike more appealing.  The chain ring (HD sprocket) looks problematic but you should post close ups of that so people can determine for certain if that part is real or fake.


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## catfish

New Mexico Brant said:


> Not a real Harley Davidson; here is another example of an old bike with an HD ring being placed on to make a scrappy bike more appealing.  The chain ring (HD sprocket) looks problematic but you should post close ups of that so people can determine for certain if that part is real or fake.




Chain ring looks fake.


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## Trickmachine

Ya the chain ring looks flame cut to me. I'm going to look into it some more. The guy wasn't selling it as a Harley, he actually didn't say anything about it. I just seen a few 1917 era specials and thought the frame was similar.


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## Trickmachine

Archie Sturmer said:


> Looks like a 1927-E Westfield “*Junior* *Roadster*” — with junior simply meaning that it is not a double bar frame like a motorbike; or unlike a diamond frame roadster, it has a drop bar frame.



My son has a Colson Rover that looks very similar, plus it has the uneven screw locations for head badge that are on the sides, not up and down screw holes, but one on each side with right side being higher up. Also has that kinked top tube, only difference I see between the two is the frame joints at seat and head tube.


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## piercer_99

Trickmachine said:


> Here is a few more pics
> 
> View attachment 1385545
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> View attachment 1385546
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> View attachment 1385547
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> View attachment 1385548



it is no more harley davidson than this one, which definitely is not.









						What bike did you ride today? | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

A beautiful bicycle on a beautiful day, what more could you want on your birthday.  Many happy returns @Mr. Monkeyarms !




					thecabe.com


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## Archie Sturmer

Below is an old thread about a nicely-done HD project bike, by a member, from the “*projects*” forum; (said to be all-correct).
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/hd.82955/
More than one member politely requested additional close-up pictures for all to see. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/hd-project.85322/
With a full disclosure of some reproduction parts or accessories in the latest post.


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## Archie Sturmer

I was going to link a recent thread about a HD tribute bicycle recently posted in late August.
We may remember that it was comprised of an Excelsior frame (blue); Davis heavy duty truss fork (Sears Chief?), and a Davis drop stand, and other nice parts & accessories.
It even came in a 25-year old box with great provenance (for the box?).
We might forget who the buyer and seller (both members) were.
The tribute was almost like a complement to a 2015/16 Davis frame w/ an Excelsior truss fork in post #50?
But the thread was *deleted*, we notice.

A member might have saved a picture(?).


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## New Mexico Brant

A true turd for the record:

Some real parts, some not; faux paint job.


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## dasberger

New Mexico Brant said:


> A true turd for the record:
> 
> Some real parts, some not; faux paint job.
> 
> View attachment 1549810
> View attachment 1549811
> View attachment 1549813View attachment 1549812
> View attachment 1549815View attachment 1549814View attachment 1549816View attachment 1549817View attachment 1549818
> View attachment 1549819
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> View attachment 1549820
> View attachment 1549829View attachment 1549830
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> View attachment 1549831




It must be the movie provenance that commands such a high price tag....


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## New Mexico Brant

New Mexico Brant said:


> A true turd for the record:
> 
> Some real parts, some not; faux paint job.
> 
> View attachment 1549810
> View attachment 1549811
> View attachment 1549813View attachment 1549812
> View attachment 1549815View attachment 1549814View attachment 1549816View attachment 1549817View attachment 1549818
> View attachment 1549819
> 
> View attachment 1549820
> View attachment 1549829View attachment 1549830
> 
> View attachment 1549831



@Jesse McCauley


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## oldmtrcyc

Look at this on eBay








						antique bicycle  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for antique bicycle at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


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## oldmtrcyc

The complete description... "antique bicycle"

Seller obviously knew it was fake.


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## Freqman1

Archie Sturmer said:


> I was going to link a recent thread about a HD tribute bicycle recently posted in late August.
> We may remember that it was comprised of an Excelsior frame (blue); Davis heavy duty truss fork (Sears Chief?), and a Davis drop stand, and other nice parts & accessories.
> It even came in a 25-year old box with great provenance (for the box?).
> We might forget who the buyer and seller (both members) were.
> The tribute was almost like a complement to a 2015/16 Davis frame w/ an Excelsior truss fork in post #50?
> But the thread was *deleted*, we notice.
> 
> A member might have saved a picture(?).



I know which one you are talking about and not sure why it would be deleted. Originally posted by @ZE52414 V/r Shawn


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## ZE52414

Not sure if I deleted it or not. Sorry guys I don’t get on as much as I should anymore.


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## Archie Sturmer

+ Here it is now twice again, same one. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1917-1918-harley-davidson.208193/

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1917-1918-harley-davidson.208200/


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## bikebozo

That chain ring on the floor , looks H D , repop


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## Freqman1

Another eBay fake--this one is "restored"!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255531938762?campid=5335809022


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## Archie Sturmer

Davis sideways serial numbers and chain tensioner looks like a Davis-built lug-frame. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1918-harley-davidson-frame.208526/
Seat post cluster looks peculiar?
And the chain stays _appear_ as *oval*-*shaped* at the bottom bracket crank hanger(?).


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## Archie Sturmer

We may recall the era when Hawley Davidson was owned by AMF.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/155045524889?campid=5335809022


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## Archie Sturmer

Freqman1 said:


> Another eBay fake--this one is "restored"!
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255531938762?campid=5335809022



Re-listed and identified as a "homage" to HD bike.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255613012361?campid=5335809022

Looks like an A&S frame, based on the style of rear fork ends with built-in stops (tabs) for the stand.


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## palepainter

I own this bike now.


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## palepainter

The fake HD above originally had horizontal mounting holes with a 1 9/16 spread.  i suspect it was oval of some kind.   Some of the paint appears to be original, faint hints of black pinstripe around the graphic appear.  The chain ring does not fit the chain.  It’s purely decorative.  I will turn it into a guitar.   I am looking to find out what it was so I can properly bring it back to life.   i seen it mentioned that it may be an AS frame due to rear drop outs.  I can get better pics tomorrow.  Appreciate the input As this bike will no longer be passed off as an HD.


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## Archie Sturmer

palepainter said:


> The fake HD above….
> I am looking to find out *what* *it* *was* so I can properly bring it back to life.



Looks like it could have been similar to a bike previously posted, but with different forks and crank set. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/help-identifying.190720/page-2#post-1293772


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