# Elgin ID



## Bendix (Feb 6, 2010)

hi all- new to this forum but i recognize folks from mtbr and rrb here and there. picked up this elgin last night, wondering if anyone can help with the year of the frame.....s/n S 7837.  thanks!


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## Adamtinkerer (Feb 6, 2010)

The V style badge first shows up in the fall 36 catalog, and that style bike was gone after the fall 37 catalog.


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## Bendix (Feb 6, 2010)

Adamtinkerer said:


> The V style badge first shows up in the fall 36 catalog, and that style bike was gone after the fall 37 catalog.




Thanks!  I've read the serial numbers started changing from a westfield (manufacturer) designation to a sears (seller) designation around that time- perhaps that explains the S and 4 digits instead of a C or D paired with 5 digits (??) Not that it really matters.....

Is there a source for online scans of the Elgin catalogs? Maybe I just haven't searched enough.


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## Steve-O (Feb 6, 2010)

If that indeed is an Elgin, it is a '37.  None of the '36 motobike frames have the built in dropstand tabs on them.  The grease cups were a '37 feature as well (Alemite lubrication).   Your frame looks more like a Snyder built frame than a Westfield to me, but I could be wrong.  Those forks don't look original to that bike either.  They look like Emblem Mfg. forks by the look of the sweep and the thickness.

Again, just my guess so take it for what it is worth.


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## RMS37 (Feb 6, 2010)

Good eye Steve-O, I was going to look over my Emblem when I get down to the shop next time. The fish-mouth mounting of the lower top tube also looks Emblem-esque. This begs the question; did Emblem supply to Sears during the death throws of the company, or is the bike an Emblem that has been after-the-fact Elginized? 

Considering the grease fittings and the riveted badge it might be time to consider Emblem a Sears supplier along with the common Westfield and Murray, the less common Snyder, and the possible Monark (two mystery moto balloon Elgins turned up last year that have several Monark hallmarks).

I was also curious if that is a decal or a smudge on the middle of the seat tube?


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## Bendix (Feb 6, 2010)

thanks guys! a wealth of knowledge! the sticker is just from a later bike shop- has a 'ten speed' on the logo. i really like this old phillips 66 sticker. i guess it won't pain me to part it out and use various parts for various projects. that's why i originally picked it up. fwiw  i did see a picture of a '37  iver johnson with those curved struts.


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## rustyspoke66 (Feb 7, 2010)

*Other things to look at.*

I think this is close to what your bike should be. If it is a Elgin it looks like other parts have been changed like the fenders, crank and chainring. here is a link to a picture of what I think the bike should possibly look like. Hope this helps.
http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle990.htm


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## RMS37 (Feb 7, 2010)

I wouldn’t part the bike in haste. As I said in my earlier post it appears to be an Emblem built frame with an Emblem fork. If the badge is original to the bike then you have a very rare Elgin variant and while to most people it will have no real dollar advantage over the standard Westfield bike; to an historian it has significant value in the story it tells.

It is definitely not a standard Westfield built frame. The fish mouth joints on the lower top tube were not used by Westfield at that time and the serial number is not a Westfield number (nor does it follow the patterns used on later Sears bicycles) . There is also not a connection to Iver Johnson. Iver truss rods are made from two rods, siamesed at the top and they have integral braces that are part of the rods and not the fork crown.

There are pictures of Emblem built Pierce Moto Balloons on Nostalgic.net that you can compare the fork with and that will show typical Emblem frame construction that used fish mouth joints for the lower top tube. If you post clear pictures of these joints I will post pictures of those on my Emblem frame for reference.

It is interesting that the general geometry of your bike follows closer to the standard Westfield than the Pierce and that the bike has the Alemite grease fittings. This leads me to believe that it very well could be a special model Emblem built to gain some sales through Sears. At any rate it deserves a bit more study.

Obviously the bike is a bit of a bitsa and the stem, bars, saddle, headlight, kickstand and fender braces are all later replacement parts. My caution is that the frame, fork, fenders, crank and badge may very well all be part of a very rare Elgin Moto-balloon variant and if so deserve to stay together.


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## rustyspoke66 (Feb 7, 2010)

Great information!! I'm new to this site and information like this is why I joined. Great history!


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## Steve-O (Feb 7, 2010)

Bendix said:


> thanks guys! a wealth of knowledge! the sticker is just from a later bike shop- has a 'ten speed' on the logo. i really like this old phillips 66 sticker. i guess it won't pain me to part it out and use various parts for various projects. that's why i originally picked it up. fwiw  i did see a picture of a '37  iver johnson with those curved struts.




As Phil mentioned, I wouldn't part it out too quickly.  The bottom top tube joints are unusual for a Westfield or Snyder frame.  As RMS37 explained as well, those are not Iver forks.  Those are definately Emblem.  Hence, why your front fender is squished in there.  The Emblem forks are narrow.  

If you do part it out, be careful of your description of the forks as well.  The only bikes it will fit are bikes with a similar head tube length as the bike you have.  The steering tube is too short to fit an actual "Emblem" frame.  Emblem head tubes are around 4-3/8" between bearing cups plus they have a dust cover type adjusting cone (which your bike doesn't have).  From the looks of your frame, the head tube length is probably around 3-5/8" - 3-3/4" between the bearing cups which is common on the Westfield and Snyder built frames made under the Elgin name.  That would explain why the truss rods are all the way down to the bottom of the threading.  You'll have an angry buyer on your hands when he tries to put it on his Emblem.

I agree with RMS37.  You should do some research and find out more about that bike before tearing it apart.  Post more photos on here as well for all of us to see.  I'd like to see the joints up close.

Here's the interesting thing.  I am not sure that Emblem was a supplier to Sears, but if you look in the Montgomery Wards catalogs, the replacement parts for Hawthorne shows "Emblem-esque" truss rods with Snyder forks in those years.


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## Bendix (Feb 7, 2010)

i see now from another look in the old hurd/hennings book how the struts are similar (top 's'  bend) and different (everything else!). i didn't neccesarily think they were related, just the odd curve struck  me as similar. i'll post some more detail shots later. thanks!


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## Bendix (Feb 9, 2010)

*frame details*

here's a few shots of the frame joints & fork crown......


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## RMS37 (Feb 9, 2010)

Thanks for the additional photos; the upper rear fender bridge shouts Emblem! (Thick tube, peaked rather than arched.)

 I dug part of my Emblem out of cold storage last night (it is currently apart) and I will try to get some photos tonight. 

I am reasonably sure your bike is an Emblem built Elgin, up till now this version was unknown to me and probably most others in the hobby. The bike is probably from the very end of Emblem production given that several features are different than the more typical Pierce and Emblem badged Moto-Bike frames.

More to come…..


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## Bendix (Feb 22, 2010)

*seat tube diameter.....*

just started to putter with this the other day, while it's obviously shimmed for a 5/8 post, the actual seat tube id is 3/4". i've not had an old bike with that size before..... i was wondering if that might be another 'emblem' clue


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