# Who made my Elgin? Murray vs Westfield identifiers



## rustjunkie (Nov 14, 2014)

Pre-WWII Murray-built bikes used a similar frame construction to post-WWII Schwinn. Mislabeled as "fillet brazing" the head- and other tubes were forgings and electro-welded to the main tubes. That's how they got those really nice smooth curves, w/o time consuming brazing and finish work. This is what I've observed over the years, and am not offended to learn that I'm mistaken 
Here's some pics of Murray and Westfield key points that help me with ID's:

Murray Pre-WWII:


































You can see that there are 2 types of seat post clamp areas, one that takes 2 shims, and one that doesn't.
Some bikes had the "hourglass" at seat- and chain-stay, some did not.
The fork shown is AFAIK unique to Murray.

From what I've seen most pre-WWII Murray bikes you'll find do not have rear fork ends threaded for chain adjusters, but they were made that way, usually seen on Mercury badged bikes:


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## rustjunkie (Nov 14, 2014)

Westfield bikes had different frame construction and rear fork ends.





















Murray and Westfield bikes were produced with both straight and curved seat tubes.


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## fordmike65 (Dec 20, 2018)

We should make this a sticky. Great info here!


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## TieDye (Dec 20, 2018)

Awesome technical information!!!  I love this kind of sharing (and teaching) of knowledge! Thank you!!!!


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## Euphman06 (Dec 21, 2018)

I always noticed, to my eyes at least, with the curved seat tube versions... Murray curved seat tubes were more of a true curve from bottom to top of the tube, while Westfield curved seat tubes look straight at the bottom, then bend, and then end straight at the top.


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## TieDye (Dec 21, 2018)

Euphman06 said:


> I always noticed, to my eyes at least, with the curved seat tube versions... Murray curved seat tubes were more of a true curve from bottom to top of the tube, while Westfield curved seat tubes look straight at the bottom, then bend, and then end straight at the top.



Yes, I agree with that.  They just look better to my eye.


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## Pappy (Apr 10, 2019)

Here in the Midwest the Murray version is harder to find. I have a Murray built curved tube,long tank Elgin...’39 I believe. Its kinda ruff but I like it. Gonna give it to a pal who’s an awesome metal man...if anyone can save it,Larry can.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hukah (Jan 12, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> Westfield bikes had different frame construction and rear fork ends.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It looks like the Hiawatha I bought has the westfield "dropout" arrangement(?).
Does that make sense?
I'd not heard of Westfield until this very post so there's a new rabbit hole for me to wander.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 12, 2021)

Hukah said:


> It looks like the Hiawatha I bought has the westfield "dropout" arrangement(?).
> Does that make sense?
> I'd not heard of Westfield until this very post so there's a new rabbit hole for me to wander.
> 
> View attachment 1337847




that one's a murray also


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## catfish (Jan 12, 2021)

Great info!


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## Hukah (Jan 12, 2021)

Am I wrong about this?
It looks like the Westfield has more "straightness" in it's topbar? More like the Columbia?
Maybe it's just the angle the photo is taken at?
I also see some with a curved downtube that is absent on my Hiawatha.
This can be confusing too sometimes.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 12, 2021)

your hiawatha is a murray


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## Hukah (Jan 12, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> that one's a murray also



that's what mrg said too. I forgot that he has the same frame that i do.


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## rustjunkie (Jan 12, 2021)

Hukah said:


> that's what mrg said too. I forgot that he has the same frame that i do.




your frame has this electroforged area






misrepresentation | General Discussion About Old Bicycles | The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange (thecabe.com)


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## Hukah (Jan 12, 2021)

I hope I'm not hijacking, but instead contributing to the subject.
Please let me know if I am OT.
I asked MRG what the model name of this frame is and he said he was unaware.
after you reminding me that it is Murray built and I seen that the westfield came back as a '41 from my goog search I got the idea to goog a "1941 murray adult tank bike" and these two images appeared in the first two rows.
It looks like the name of this model is "Derby", if I'm not mistaken.
Is there a way to "tag" him in this conversation?

PS; it had the unusual fork, if I'm seeing it right


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## rustjunkie (Jan 12, 2021)

Derby was the house "brand" for pep boys iirc.
so you will see Derby badged bikes of different manufacturers, same as Elgin (Sears), Hiawatha (Gambles), Firestone, etc


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## Hukah (Jan 12, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> Derby was the house "brand" for pep boys iirc.
> so you will see Derby badged bikes of different manufacturers, same as Elgin (Sears), Hiawatha (Gambles), Firestone, etc



Dang. I thought I found something. lol


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## oldfart36 (Jan 12, 2021)

Easy way, The Murray had the longer seat post tube. The Westfield had the short seat post tube!


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## Mad Mike (Jan 12, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> your frame has this electroforged area
> 
> View attachment 1337851
> 
> ...



My bike is as the one pictured......But noticed in this picture- Left and right of the peak of the sidewall= frame sectioning? the attached joining of pieces is very pronounced like this...^^^^^^^^  Mine's Mercury badged.


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## Kickstand3 (Jan 12, 2021)

rustjunkie said:


> Derby was the house "brand" for pep boys iirc.
> so you will see Derby badged bikes of different manufacturers, same as Elgin (Sears), Hiawatha (Gambles), Firestone, etc



Let me help !


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## Hukah (Jan 12, 2021)

Kickstand3 said:


> Let me help !
> 
> View attachment 1337976
> 
> View attachment 1337977



You got the unique fork.
I didn't get a fork but I have one i"m going to use on it.
I'm geeked to get mine now.
It has been shipped but who knows what that's gonna look like.


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## mrg (Jan 12, 2021)

@Hukah Most Murry built of those years have that fork, as far as a model name you may only get that from a Gambles catalog but even that might not tell you as they don't always picture they same bike as they used more than one supplier and with only just a frame it's hard to tell if it was equipped or unequipped ( tanks or plain Jane ). also Columbia is one of Westfield badges and the red Derby you posted is Snyder built.


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## mrg (Jan 12, 2021)

Wow that sure looks like @CWCMAN's old back yard! a long ago?


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## CWCMAN (Jan 13, 2021)

Yeah Mark, that was my bike many moons ago. And so was the house


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## Hukah (Jan 13, 2021)

mrg said:


> @Hukah ... the red Derby you posted is Snyder built.



There's a lot for me to learn. I hope I don't drive too many crazy in the meantime, lol


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## Hukah (Jan 13, 2021)

CWCMAN said:


> Yeah Mark, that was my bike many moons ago. And so was the house



It's a small world after all. I'm glad to have found your old bike. It sure is a looker. I hope mine will look as good but I don't think I'll be affording a tank any time soon.


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