# TOC Frame Question Help!



## carlitos60 (Oct 2, 2014)

I have been Curious About the "Time Period" of this Type of FRAME?????  "Single Fat Rear Tube" as Compared to the Usual "Double Thin Tubes"!!!!
Also, was there a Special Purpose or Just Looks??  Who Made it First???

*Comments will be Appreciated!!!!

*




Good Day!


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## bricycle (Oct 2, 2014)

1895-8 Jenkins made Napoleon made for Sears Roebuck and co. Had 2 of these.


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## bricycle (Oct 2, 2014)

Seen many more of these than the two stay style. Wood bars standard fare, steel optional. Nice bike. frames had light nickel plate, painted black, leaving plated highlights here and there.


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## fordsnake (Oct 2, 2014)

Several patents on style and construction beginning 1896








The style was very popular 1896 -1900's


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## fordsnake (Oct 2, 2014)

More manufacturers












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## bricycle (Oct 2, 2014)

I like the Manson version....


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## fordsnake (Oct 2, 2014)

bricycle said:


> I like the Manson version....




Yeah, very cool...







here's an imitation of the Manson's THREE CROWN BIKE


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## bricycle (Oct 2, 2014)

Love the wheels!!! Bikes look heavy, but at 21-22 lbs, quite light right?


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## willswares1220 (Oct 2, 2014)

Here's another example of that frame style with 30 inch wheels. 
Don't know what it is though with just a partial decal on the head tube.................


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## fordsnake (Oct 2, 2014)

willswares1220 said:


> Here's another example of that frame style with 30 inch wheels.
> Don't know what it is though with just a partial decal on the head tube.................





I wonder if it's a National?


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## bricycle (Oct 2, 2014)

...look out Racycles!


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## carlitos60 (Oct 2, 2014)

*Thanks a Lot!*

Thanks a Lot for the Great Info and Samples!!!!

So Can I Say 1895-1905 Only Frame?????  *Or What???
*
Also, When did they Stop Using the 30" Wheels???


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## fordsnake (Oct 2, 2014)

carlitos60 said:


> So Can I Say 1895-1905 Only Frame?????  Or What???



Share a photo of the "Napoleon" badge...that would help? Badge designs changed over years.



carlitos60 said:


> When did they Stop Using the 30" Wheels???




Perhaps when Pope took control of ABC and standardized manufacturing???


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## fordmike65 (Oct 2, 2014)

fordsnake said:


> Share a photo of the "Napoleon" badge...that would help? Badge designs changed over years.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps when Pope took control of ABC and standardized manufacturing???




Badge on the bike Carlitos posted


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## josehuerta (Oct 3, 2014)

*1899 Mead Sentinel*


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## carlitos60 (Oct 3, 2014)

*No, No....!!!*



fordsnake said:


> Share a photo of the "Napoleon" badge...that would help? Badge designs changed over years.
> Perhaps when Pope took control of ABC and standardized manufacturing???





Sorry for the Confusion!!!
*What I Meat Was; *That I was Curious About The Frame Style and the 30" Wheels as far as "Time Period" and "Years" Made!!!
Not About the Napoleon, that was *for Reference *of the Single Back Tube Frame!!!!:o:o:o

It seems that the Design was Only Made for a Short Period, and was Replaced with the More Common Double Thin Tubes Style!!! 
By the Way,,,,The Crowns of That MEAD Look Fake to Me!!!


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## bricycle (Oct 3, 2014)

josehuerta said:


> View attachment 171610




...lol, now I know what my chainwheel assy. goes to. thanks for posting!


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## Iverider (Oct 3, 2014)

That's the same chainewheel that were on Crown bikes (notice the cutout is actually shaped like a Crown!)

That Sentinal was probably a G-Dub mfg bike! Cool.


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## bricycle (Oct 3, 2014)

Krautwaggen said:


> That's the same chainewheel that were on Crown bikes (notice the cutout is actually shaped like a Crown!)
> 
> That Sentinal was probably a G-Dub mfg bike! Cool.




It's on my Crown now, but it's a late teens moto.......


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## fordsnake (Oct 3, 2014)

*Look what just popped up*

Mead Sentinel








http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?63646-Worth-buying-these-Sentinel-and-Black-Beauty


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## fordsnake (Oct 3, 2014)

carlitos60 said:


> So Can I Say 1895-1905 Only Frame?????
> When did they Stop Using the 30" Wheels???




Here's my Latta frame...its stamped 1897. So generally speaking the production of the frame design was between 1897-1901...but it wasn't patented until 1898!




 

Interesting note about the Jenkins Mfg. Co.,  C.E.Jenkins maker of the Napoleon introduced another company named the Iroquois Cycle Works in 1898…producing a new model. I'm guessing your bike was produced sometime after this 1898 launch?


 

1901 all manufacturer making utilizing this frame design were warned by the ABC Trust (who now owned the patent) to cease manufacturing or faced a hefty law suit for patent infringement. This latter action eventually destroyed the Jenkins Mfg Co., the maker of the Napoleon. 









By 1903 the Jenkins Mfg. Co., was sold and under new stewardship.


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## corbettclassics (Oct 3, 2014)

*1895*

Here's my 1895 Kenmore with the same wish bone type seat stays..( Kenmore was made 1895 and 1896 only )


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## willswares1220 (Oct 3, 2014)

That Kenmore's a nice machine!


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## fordsnake (Oct 3, 2014)

Is that the Thorsen & Cassady Co, Kenmore? Doing a quick search I can't find anything from 1895-1896 having that frame design? Can you please share your documentation how you arrived at such an early date?


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## carlitos60 (Oct 3, 2014)

*Great Question!!!!*



fordsnake said:


> Is that the Thorsen & Cassady Co, Kenmore? Doing a quick search I can't find anything from 1895-1896 having that frame design? Can you please share your documentation how you arrived at such an early date?





Great Question!!!!   Thanks fordsnake!!!!

*Documents and Serial Numbers Should be Required When Posting Exact Years of Manufacturing of Bikes!!!!
*
Otherwise, they will appear on Google as Formal (erroneous) Information!!!!

Thanks for All Your Input!!!!  Except, No Info on the 30" Wheels/Tires!!!


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## bricycle (Oct 3, 2014)

carlitos60 said:


> Great Question!!!!   Thanks fordsnake!!!!
> 
> *Documents and Serial Numbers Should be Required When Posting Exact Years of Manufacturing of Bikes!!!!
> *
> ...




I'm no expert for sure, but Wills bike appears to be a 1896 or newer, due to the shorter fork tube, so maybe around 1896 ish would be when 30"er's were about through(previously I would have said by 1892-4)


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## corbettclassics (Oct 3, 2014)

fordsnake said:


> Is that the Thorsen & Cassady Co, Kenmore? Doing a quick search I can't find anything from 1895-1896 having that frame design? Can you please share your documentation how you arrived at such an early date?




Wheelman have "Kenmore" listed as 2 years only - 1895 & 1896

I have only ever seen one other "Kenmore" and it showed up here
on the Cabe. It was actually a ladies bike. I researched for 20 years on
Kenmore and could never find anything except what the Wheelman have.

Here's another shot >


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## carlitos60 (Oct 3, 2014)

corbettclassics said:


> Wheelman have "Kenmore" listed as 2 years only - 1895 & 1896
> 
> I have only ever seen one other "Kenmore" and it showed up here
> on the Cabe. It was actually a ladies bike. I researched for 20 years on
> ...


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## carlitos60 (Oct 4, 2014)

*Is This the End???*

Is This the End???

I Think,,,, This Requires a Bit More In-Put Guys!!!!!
TOC Bikes with That Frame are Really Looked After and They Seem Rare!!!!!!!!


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## volksboy57 (Jan 26, 2022)

Hey, I'm reviving this thread. Look at my little 3 crown bike! I didn't know that was the frame style until today. It might be a Marion, but who knows? The wheelset is from the 20s, because it is a new departure c. The bike is TOC, I am sure!


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