# ATALA 50s-60s?



## Jesper (Nov 19, 2021)

I recently got an early Atala. Trying to determine approximate year of manufacture. Will post more photos; some got corrupted somehow (full frame, fork, drop-outs). Original crankset and headset. Campy drop-outs front. Seat post unsure; 26.0mm is too small and 26.4mm is too large. I have no 26.2mm and I have yet to measure the steel (OE?) post that came with it (fits very tight!). Clamp slot looks okay; not squeezed shut at all. Supposed repaint and replacement decals. I am unfamiliar with what the original decals should be.

Thanks for any help!


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## juvela (Nov 19, 2021)

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lug pattern Agrati "BRIANZA" ART. 000.8030/U

upper head lug N. 000.8034

lower head lug N. 000.8033

seat lug N. 022.8038

usually on these the first two characters of the serial indicates the year of manufacture

if cycle produced for export to the anglophone world the underside of the shell is marked with the nominal frame size as measured in inches in two places

center of bottom bracket spindle may be marked ATALA, also may be marked "57" - not a date - a reference to the width in mm's between the bearing shoulders

pillar size suggests produced with quality plain gauge tubing

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## dnc1 (Nov 20, 2021)

A definite repaint judging by the thickness of the paint in the photo of the seat stay cluster.
Nice, quality find!


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## kccomet (Nov 20, 2021)

picked this the other day, 1950s, trying to figure year on it too


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## juvela (Nov 20, 2021)

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earlier established discussion thread on the green example posted above -









						1950s? Atala ID - Bike Forums
					

Classic & Vintage - 1950s? Atala ID - picked this up local today, 1950s? atala. I don't remember seeing these lugs, then again I don't know much about atala. it has internal cable routing, campy sport derail, not gran sport, the cool suicide shift. can anyone shed any light on year or...



					www.bikeforums.net
				





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## kccomet (Nov 20, 2021)

not trying to highjack your thread, somewhat similar bikes, well their both early atals. condorinos maybe, here's my serial number. I'd like to see more pics of your bike and componets...thanks


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## Jesper (Nov 20, 2021)

Thanks on the lug ID and serial # info @juvela  I need to check the serial # carefully; it's not too clear in the photo. @dnc1 you are corect as to repaint; appears to have been dark blue over cream unless the red is a second repaint. If it was 2 tone and I can find a representative original livery I will paint back to original. It would look much more classic, and red just doesn't suit its era. I do believe it should have "Atala" script decals, and not the block lettering style. I presumed straight gauge tubing given the post size; not a big deal since I like the lug pattern and the older head badge. There is a dent on the top of the top tube near the front, but the geometry is fine, tubing is still quite straight; it helped get it at a decent enough price ($150). I am curious as to when the Atala headbadge changed since I know I have seen late 60s badges that were different if original to the frame. Headset is in good condition, but the bottom of the head tube is providing a loose fit to the lower cup (cup does not appear worn) since I am able to easily insert it without a press. I have some brass shim material that should fix the problem; otherwise it goes to the machine shop to have a sleeve inserted.
I will keep the original crankset and BB installed if races are good. I have an early 3t "Touriste" stem and may use a Belleri bar (I have a Belleri stem, but it might be 22.0mm sized) if it fits the clamp (shim to fit?). Campy "Record" or "Gran Sport" bronze and steel rear derailleur, probably a "Record" front derailleur even though it's a little later in manufacture date, Universal Extra (Mod. 50 or 51) brakeset should blend in nicely, and what ever wheels I have on hand to fit with the brake reach is good enough. Not trying to make this 100% accurate, just trying to breath new life into it. Old Ideale saddle from a 60s Peugeot. Anyone have a 26.2mm post (alloy); I'll use my Campy 26.0 post (where did it come from?) with a shim if I can't find a better option.


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## Jesper (Nov 20, 2021)

@kccomet here are more photos. @juvela it would seem to be from 1958 based upon the serial number: 58G2800 (I think the letter is a "G", or # "6").
Simplex rear drop-outs, no markings found on frame other than the SN. Unmarked BB shell (70mm, Italian) w/o drain hole(s).
Juvela strikes again with knowledge of the BB: "56" stamp on it, and measured 56mm shoulder to shoulder. Unfortunately, it is too pitted for use; it would need to be machined so probably not worth it. I will try and hunt down a better OE replacement if possible. I don't think I have any cottered BBs on hand of any make for immediate substitution, and I want to use the original crankset (170mm, 52t/44t) since it is perfectly okay with minimal wear. The original cups are quite usable if I can find only an Atala spindle in good shape.
REG TT cable guides will be kept. Chainstay guides/stops are fine and will clean-up. Binder bolt and nut do not seem original to me so another part to hunt down without using a more modern one.
I will scrap the Campy Record FD idea and use an old Simplex 'suicide' derailleur which will allow for use of an early Campy single shift lever for the RD.




TT dent:


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## juvela (Nov 21, 2021)

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thank you for all of the new information and imagery   😉

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appreciate sorting of serial; was unable, with me auld occipital receptors, to get anything from the original likeness

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anterior mech -

the ivory coloured plastic knob marks it as too late for a machine of mcmlviii.  knobs remained metal through mcmlix and plastic came in in mcmlx

it is not the commonly seen Competition model front mech but one of the Randonneur iterations.  these operate by moving the lever front-to-back rather than inward-outward

Juy catalogue page of mcmlx:





both clamp-on and braze-on models were produced:















if the mech were original to the cycle for the mcmlviii date it would be Simplex of Italy, rather than of France.  Juy maintained a facility in Italy during the mcml's.

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bb spindle -

there is a technique termed "hard chroming" to add metal back to the bearing races which can then be reground

had this done once on a Verot model 34 spindle.  it came out beautifully.  unable to comment upon cost as it was performed on a favour exchange basis with a cycle customer whose employment was at a shop which repaired "rotating equipment"

probably have an official ATALA cottered bottom bracket assembly in excellent nick within me parts drawers.  it will be a bit later than the bicycle if that is OK.

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frame ends -

since bow & stern not a match it raises question of "is fork original?"

crown is an Agrati pattern but not the one normally associated with the "BRIANZA" pattern lug ensemble

it is a close cousin of the pattern seen on Galmozzi and Ideor cycles of the late nineteen fifties and early nineteen sixties

the integral seating pad for a brake caliper is a feature not previously encountered

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stem & bar -

the Tecno Tubo Torino stem you propose to employ has a clamp size of 26.0mm whilst the Belri bar is likely to have a centre diameter of 25.0mm

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## Jesper (Nov 21, 2021)

juvela said:


> "anterior mech -
> 
> the ivory coloured plastic knob marks it as too late for a machine of mcmlviii.  knobs remained metal through mcmlix and plastic came in in mcmlx
> 
> if the mech were original to the cycle for the mcmlviii date it would be Simplex of Italy, rather than of France.  Juy maintained a facility in Italy during the mcml's."



If at first I don't succeed.....
Mech with metal knob and of Italian manufacture. Only one I have that I took off the late 50s Lygie (maybe 1960, serial?). Forgot I had gotten rid of that frame; that's where my cottered crankset went to also), my green and yellow Lygie/Ligie frame is newer ('69).












juvela said:


> "bb spindle -
> 
> there is a technique termed "hard chroming" to add metal back to the bearing races which can then be reground
> 
> ...



If it fits, all is good! I'd rather buy from a mate than on ebay! Let me know, thanks.


juvela said:


> "---frame ends -
> 
> since bow & stern not a match it raises question of "is fork original?"
> 
> ...



I questioned that myself. Figured the rear d/o would definitely be Campy. I am not familiar enough on that topic. Researching 50's Atala bikes I came across one that might help me with the livery design, but different lugs. Fork crown had 2 slots on the side as opposed to my fork with one slot cut-out. That example also had a Campy rear d/o with adjuster. 


juvela said:


> "---stem & bar -
> 
> the Tecno Tubo Torino stem you propose to employ has a clamp size of 26.0mm whilst the Belri bar is likely to have a centre diameter of 25.0mm.----"



This I knew, thus my shim reference which I have successfully done before. I found my Belleri stem, but I thought it was a 22.0mm quill. My notes show it to be 25.0mm clamp with 22.14mm (near quill top) to 22.17mm (just above slots) so I know I measured it previously to verify if it was for a French steerer like my ATAX, AVA, and Pivo stems. It should work fine; now to find out where I put that bar to match it.




I am still digging through my parts to find a proper seat post. I cannot find the '69 Lygie frame's post that I pulled from it. They are the same size seat tube ID; the Atala steel post fits similarly into the Lygie tube.

Shot of the '69 Lygie (serial 69V0187, it had 60s components installed) for comparison to the Atala. That is why I thought the Atala might be a 60s frame, but the '69 Lygie also looked nearly identical to the late 50s Lygie frame excepting decals.


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## Jesper (Nov 21, 2021)

Photos of a presumed (by owner) 50s Atala. Link:  https://flic.kr/s/aHskCynTgG

 This might have been what my frame should look like. Unknown if it is original paint and decals. Columbus decal (if even Columbus tubing) is definitely incorrect for the year it was made by about 20 years or more. My frame has remnants of dark blue on top of 'cream' paint on the rear drop-outs so that does provide some evidence as to its true livery.


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## Jesper (Nov 22, 2021)

kccomet said:


> not trying to highjack your thread, somewhat similar bikes, well their both early atals. condorinos maybe, here's my serial number. I'd like to see more pics of your bike and componets...thanks
> 
> View attachment 1515097
> 
> View attachment 1515098



I'm going with mid to late 50s. My serial number indicates mine as a 1958 model. Your serial does not seem to fit the same format; maybe '57? I am installing the same front derailleur as you have which I am told is 50s vintage due to Italian make. I would appreciate it if you could show the FD disassembled with parts laid out in proper order as I am trying to ascertain if my unit is complete and properly assembled. Thanks


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## juvela (Nov 22, 2021)

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1953 parts drawing for the Competition model -






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## kccomet (Nov 22, 2021)

thanks for the diagram juvela, now I don't have to take mine apart..ha. I thought it an odd mix of the simplex and campy. little did I know for a short while they were producing in Italy. you guys are a wealth of knowledge. I think my bike is a 1957, still unsure of the model, it has internal routing which condorinos had. of the cool this and that on my bike, I like the nanni stem the most


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## juvela (Nov 22, 2021)

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thanks very much for these images!

me favourite component is the leaning tower of dovecote

have never known the years of operation for the Simplex of Italy entity - know only that it was active in the 1950's - it is likely responsible for the existence of those chrome Simplex of Italy hubs produced by Fratelli Brivio

have long assumed it was created to get round import duties so that Juy could get some custom with Italian cycle producers...


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## kccomet (Nov 22, 2021)

juvela, your such a kidder, leaning tower of dovecote, you had me thinking of bike graphics or componets for a minute


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## Jesper (Nov 22, 2021)

kccomet said:


> thanks for the diagram juvela, now I don't have to take mine apart..ha. I thought it an odd mix of the simplex and campy. little did I know for a short while they were producing in Italy. you guys are a wealth of knowledge. I think my bike is a 1957, still unsure of the model, it has internal routing which condorinos had. of the cool this and that on my bike, I like the nanni stem the most



I like your Nanni stem also. Now you have me wanting to find one.
Thanks @juvela for the the break-out diagram; I've had mine apart and rebuilt it the same way, but who knows if it was correct at the start with all parts in place.
 "kc", you still need to take your mech apart for overhauling (at least I would); but you don't need to post photos now! You never know what might be worn out or about to be worn out. I managed to find a couple of new spare parts for mine so I expect it to function smoothly without play once those pieces are installed although it seems to work fine as is.
 What is your seat post diameter? Just curious since mine is odd; approx. 26.2mm. I plan on shimming a Campy 26.0mm post for use since I have no bike with 26.0mm seat tube I.D.


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## Jesper (Nov 24, 2021)

A note about the possibility, or probability of the Atala fork not being original to the frame, whether from an Atala or not, is the fact that it has a sloping crown where one would expect a flat crown for that year of manufacture.


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## juvela (Nov 25, 2021)

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crown -

Agrati enjoyed a very strong dominance of frame bits for Italian manufactured bicycles; especially so for production models

Rizzato employed primarily Agrati parts for their frame construction

by the mid-to-late nineteen sixties they began utilizing the Prugnat 62/d pattern lugs for the top models yet still paired it with an Agrati crown

Agrati crowns are overwhelmingly semi-sloping - perhaps twenty or more patterns

the generalization holds true for the earlier Malguti frame building parts as well

the one Agrati catalogue here shows only one or to flat toppers

interesting to read that Cesare was employing a flat topper for some models at this era

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## Jesper (Nov 25, 2021)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> crown -
> 
> ...



Since I have been researching this frame all crowns I have observed are flat. Granted, I would have trouble calling it a semi-sloped crown, but the early models I have seen do not have a slope on them. I don't believe kccomet's crown has a slope, we need a better view of it. The bike I linked to appears flat, but has a different crown lug also. Have you checked out that example on the Flickr site? That one is my best guess for original color it his has not been repainted, or has been repainted the same colors it originally had. I will continue to research just to see other examples.


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## kccomet (Nov 26, 2021)

crown


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## juvela (Nov 26, 2021)

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@kccomet     -

the crown on your machine is Agrati item N. 000.8529 and is part of Agrati lug ensemble "AMERICA"

it is a semi-sloper

the slope does not show well in the two images provided since both are down angle

slope would be more apparent in images made level with crown

slope is quite slight but it is there if one looks closely

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the crown on the machine in the flickr album is also a semi-sloper

the lower horizontal slot/flute is OEM while the upper one is a customization

this crown widely employed in Italy and also by a few producers in the UK during the 1950's and 1960's

Bozzi employed it for a long period on Frejus brand machines

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## Jesper (Nov 26, 2021)

thank you @juvela. My eyes are not perceiving the slope, but I trust your knowledge regarding these issues.


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## juvela (Nov 27, 2021)

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Agrati offered a chrome cap for the crown on the kccomet machine

it is the only crown pattern for which they offered a chrome cap and it is item nr. 202.9110

in Italian the part is termed a "copritesta forcella"

the crown was employed extensively by Chiorda for decades both on cycles bearing their name and also upon the hundreds of contract builds they performed

decades ago I saw so much of it that I thought it proprietary to Chiorda at one time

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## Jesper (Dec 5, 2021)

I found an Atala/Iris BB and crankset, but spindle races (stamped Iris) looked rough.
No "Ligie" decals found. Lygie headset (Magistroni?) located for $40, but shipping over $55 (ebay BS!) so no purchase there.Amazing how I can have a frameset and some parts shipped from Italy for about $65-$70; but something that I can fit in my hand it being shipped at nearly the same cost. Tried talking the seller down on shipping cost, but no go. Oh well, may just end up as a modern build without any concern as to what era that part is; got an Azzurro headset if stack height is correct just to use an odd brand.


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## juvela (Dec 5, 2021)

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in case you have not already seen it you might wish to look at this Lygie restoration thread -









						1971 Lygie - Bike Forums
					

Classic & Vintage - 1971 Lygie - Probably time to start a thread to welcome thoughts on this project. Have hinted at it in other threads where applicable so enough with just teasing at it. Acquired this in 2017 at the same time as my Bruce Gordon. Both from the same friend and in this case the...



					www.bikeforums.net
				




a detailed discussion of transfers is included...


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## Jesper (Dec 6, 2021)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> in case you have not already seen it you might wish to look at this Lygie restoration thread -
> 
> ...



Thanks juvela! I would probably never have found that post; it takes me too long to search and I have no patience. I might have to become a member there just to ask that individual if he still has the stencil. I kind of figured I might have to do something like that in order to retain the original spelling design. It would probably require a tracing from both sides laid on top of on another to get the full word since each side is only partially there. That photo of that decal in the previous post looks better than it really is. I don't have all kinds of computer scanners, printers, copiers, etc. to do whatever that guy was talking about. I would do it completely by hand; painted on would be a big plus anyways. A little time consuming, but very low cost. I may ask Greg down-under if he can do it; he's helped me before.


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## Jesper (Dec 21, 2021)

Managed to find a nice set of Campagnolo Sport "Atala" badged hubs for $75 (build up some Nisi rims). A bit more than I wanted to pay since I already have a set without the "Atala" stamp, but I will now use those for the Lygie so it works out okay. Still looking for a cottered BB assy; I may just go with a Camp. 151 bcd crankset (I think it's an early 60s model) and a modern Camp. cartridge BB (of which I have a couple dozen for general use). Still, I would prefer to utilize the OE crankset.


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## juvela (Jan 5, 2022)

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a newly posted Rizzato pista of this era is locused here -

1950s? Atala track frame



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## Jesper (Feb 5, 2022)

Finally have the Atala branded hubs. Excellent condition and function. Not sure if they are made by Rizzato. I need to compare to some Campy Sport 50s steel hubs (open "C" era skewers). They appear very similar if memory serves, but I will do a side by side comparison when possible.


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## juvela (Feb 5, 2022)

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Fratelli Brivio

"luuka dose-a lock-a nuts! dey luuka jousta lykka Tullio!"


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## Jesper (Feb 6, 2022)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Fratelli Brivio
> 
> ...



Were the Brivio Bros. also manufacturing Campy hubs?


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## juvela (Feb 6, 2022)

Jesper said:


> Were the Brivio Bros. also manufacturing Campy hubs?



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the consensus of the Tullio experts seems to be that they did all of the early ones

do not know as to what years this may apply however

am not at all a Tullio expert so tend to go by what others more knowledgeable write...

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## dnc1 (Feb 7, 2022)

I believe FB manufactured hubs for many top Italian bike companies from the 30's to the 60's.
Perhaps the most detailed info on them is on the 'Condorino' website.....








						Fratelli Brivio and life in Italy before Campagnolo
					

Updated July 20, 2020. If you were born after 1970 you may think that Campagnolo is the final word when it comes to Italian bicycle components. However nothing is further from the truth as Italy ha…




					condorino-com.cdn.ampproject.org


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## juvela (Feb 7, 2022)

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also there is an enthusiast in Israel who is collecting information on them









						F.B. OEM
					

EMME  √ 	Gira    √ 	GIUFFREDI   √ 	Gloria    √ 	Guerra    √ 	Ideor 	Legnano √ 	Lygie  √ 	Olmo  √ 	Maino  √ 	Malaguti    √ 	Maurizio_Extra   √ 	PAFF    √ 	Pinarello    √ 	Simplex  √√ 	Stella Veneta √ 	Taurea   √ 	Taurus   √ 	Torpado √ 	Umberto Dei  √ 	Viscontea  √ 	Willier  √ 	Wolsit 	Zecchini  √...




					www.flickr.com
				









						F.B. OEM Hub photos needed - Bike Forums
					

Classic & Vintage - F.B. OEM Hub photos needed - I am rebuilding, re-chroming & rehabilitating some 3-piece Campy G.S. hubs. see https://www.flickr.com/photos/grande...7648665284563/ Along the way I found out that F.B. made those hubs not only for Campagnolo, but for anybody who asked. A short...



					www.bikeforums.net
				




he has advanced his endeavours to the point of fabricating replica parts for them - see some of the later posts in the above thread


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## juvela (Feb 7, 2022)

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thought that perhaps @Jesper  &   @kccomet    might like to see this image of what appears to be a 1960's era Cesare one-speeder

it was posted the other day in the "babes over 18" thread at the lounge sub-forum






cyclist is none other than Virna Lisi


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## Jesper (Feb 7, 2022)

A real beauty; the bike that is! Well, I guess the rider is also; but that is a very nice looking rear fender light/reflector. You have to give her credit if she actually cycled wearing those shoes! This is why I only watch the bike forums; I'd become too distracted. I saw something about a "the greatest rock song" thread, and knew instantly that I would be stuck there for ages in heated discussion and debate. Cycling is much easier for me to remain objective, and leave my subjective opinions on the shelf in most cases.


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## Jesper (Feb 7, 2022)

I will check out those links related to Fra. Brivio. I knew they made some early Campy branded stuff; but as to what specific components and years was a mystery. I may then assume that my Campy Sport steel hubs are F.B. as well; still haven't done a comparison yet, though I know they're close at hand (somewhere!). 
Still looking for an Iris/Atala BB; only one I have seen was not in what I consider to be serviceable condition, and certainly nothing I would hand over to a buyer unless I knew they were an experienced tinkerer and wouldn't mind a little mechanical work in the bargain. I think I am going to go a little off period and originality for the build depending on my parts availability. Possibly throw on a "north road" style handlebar mounted inverted since I know I have some old Raleigh roadster parts needing to find a purpose. I am certainly not worried about trying to turn this into some lightweight tourer, but there will certainly be an alloy seat post and Universal brakeset to keep the weight down and the performance up.


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## juvela (Feb 8, 2022)

Jesper said:


> A real beauty; the bike that is! Well, I guess the rider is also; but that is a very nice looking rear fender light/reflector. You have to give her credit if she actually cycled wearing those shoes! This is why I only watch the bike forums; I'd become too distracted. I saw something about a "the greatest rock song" thread, and knew instantly that I would be stuck there for ages in heated discussion and debate. Cycling is much easier for me to remain objective, and leave my subjective opinions on the shelf in most cases.




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here is another image from the same occasion

we can see that Virna's cycling companion is none other than Marcello Mastroianni...





are any readers able to identify his mount?

have a look at the distinctive _manubrio..._

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## Jesper (Feb 9, 2022)

That's a tough call on that bike make. Those are also distinctive _freni_ with the rear rod going from the down tube, and then up the seat tube. Not at all like my 40s Raleigh roadster that has the stirrup situated just above the chain stays.

Looks like Marcello's right leg has been amputated!


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## dnc1 (Feb 10, 2022)

I've seen that system with those bars on 'Bianchi' roadsters from the period,  but I think those handlebars were used on many Italian bikes.


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## dnc1 (Feb 10, 2022)

Here's a 1940 Bianchi.....






...one of several using that system offered that year; "manubrio speciale a leve interne".


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