# Cicli Vecchi,  Roma, Italia



## dnc1 (Oct 29, 2021)

I have already posted pictures of this new acquisition elsewhere on the Cabe but I thought it deserves a little thread of its own.
I purchased it online from a little secondhand bike shop/café on the backstreets of Bologna, Italy.....





It's badged as a "Cicli Vecchi" from Roma, but I don't think that they built the frame. I have strong suspicions that it may have been built by Antonio Alpi; it bears strong similarities to his work and he was known to build for many retailers of quality machines. I'm guessing overall at a date of very late 1930's to immediately post WW2.

If anyone has any other suggestions I would love to hear them. Here are some images of the lugwork for your perusal and insightful opinion @juvela.....











...anyone recognise the seat tube clamp manufacturer?






Chainset is by 'Magistroni'.....




...it is fluted front and rear on the crank arms.
It came minus pedals, but luckily I had a nice pair of 'Sheffield' sprint pedals in the pile which look great.

It features the legendary/crazy "Campagnolo" 'Cambio Corsa' gear mechanism which is going to take time to master in use!




...it also features a matching front "Campagnolo" Q/R front hub......




Both rims are very early "NISI" aluminium sprint rims.

Handlebars are unbranded aluminium.
Stem is a later period "3ttt" aluminium stem marked 'Made Italy' (not 'Made In Italy') which I think makes it one of their early stems, from circa 1961.

Brakes are also later I think being "Universal" 'Mignon' aluminium calipers front and rear; again any insight will be much appreciated.
The original saddle is by F.N.I. and requires repair but is definitely salvageable; I have temporarily fitted a Brooks B5N model.
Other than a lot of careful cleaning it has required very little work to get back on the road.
Just new tubs and handlebar tape really.

It has wonderful patina and the remains of some old transfers/decals.....




...including a little of a very early "Campagnolo" transfer....








It also retains its wonderful headbadge.....




...and very interestingly, "Via Ravenna 38, Roma" is still there in the same form, as a small shop; but today it, and the adjacent unit, is an opticians.
This opticians is owned and run by a Signor Fulvio Vecchi, and their website says that the family have been in operation from this building since 1938!
I am guessing that he may be the son, grandson or great grandson of this bikes originator.  I have reached out to the shop via email and patiently await a reply, and hopefully, further information.

Please feel free to comment as I said above, everyday is a school day!


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## kccomet (Oct 29, 2021)

cool bike, love that cambio, looks like a early frejus seat post collar


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## dnc1 (Oct 29, 2021)

kccomet said:


> cool bike, love that cambio, looks like a early frejus seat post collar



Thanks for the input on the seat collar clamp.
I know I've seen this design before but I couldn't remember where.


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## fat tire trader (Oct 29, 2021)

The seat post clamp was made by Magistroni and were common on many bikes.


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## dnc1 (Oct 29, 2021)

fat tire trader said:


> The seat post clamp was made by Magistroni and were common on many bikes.



Many thanks.


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## juvela (Oct 31, 2021)

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thank you for sharing this wonderful new find

agree with your idea that marque likely a house brand for a retail cycle shop - a very common practice in Italy

frame bits -

lug pattern appears to be one from Malaguti of Bologna. this firm was a producer of both frames and lugs.  here we can see the lugs and crown on a restored Malaguti machine:













two views of the Malaguti premises in the 1930's -









vestige of triangular transfer _might _be a Falck one

have you been able to discern any details of the oval transfer which formerly abided below the rectangular Vecchi one?

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fittings -

Sheffield pedals fitted from your spares trove appear to be model Corsa Nr. 655 -









here is the Mignon page from the Fratelli Pietra catalogue -





Giostra chainset -

the bottom bracket spindle may be hollow all the way through.  wedgebolts are 9.0mm with a "medium" cut.
BCD is 116mm.  spindle may be marked "L. SENIOR."

seat binder collar -

this is one of the two generic patterns of stamped collar frequently encountered.  the other is the interlocking rings motif.  also manufactured with specific cycle names.  offered in a choice of two finishes: either chrome or economy zinc.

have never known the maker for these.  they may well have been a Giostra product.  Giostra is certainly the producer of the high quality forged collars such as the ones seen on Ideor cycles -












If Giostra was indeed the maker of the stamped collars with the grecian zigzag and the interlocking rings motifs their manufacture and use continued on well beyond the cessation of play for the Magistroni marque.  Officine Mecchaniche Giostra closed the Magistroni product line in 1965.  However, they did not rest but continued right on forward in 1966 with the launch of the Of.Me.Ga./OFMEGA marques which remained active until the final closure in 1985.

Joel of the blackbirds site offers these images of the bicycle's Magistroni headset -








enjoy this new arrival and thank you again for sharing it!

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## dnc1 (Oct 31, 2021)

Many, many thanks @juvela.
This information certainly opens up many new avenues of research for me to pursue. 
I was wondering what tubing may have been used for the very lightweight frame so the possibility of a 'Falck' logo is interesting. 
I'll keep you posted when I discover anything.
Thanks again.


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## juvela (Oct 31, 2021)

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have alerted member @MauriceMoss to the bicycle and he shall mosey in anon with far more and better information than i could ever provide  


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## juvela (Nov 1, 2021)

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Malaguti note -





the frame's seat stay treatment is a Malaguti design innovation

the seat lug here has integral plugs whitch fit down into the seat stays.  the stays are trimmed square, perpendicular to the long axis.  this speeds and eases the brazing as no separate caps are needed which must be dressed.

this pattern is oft referred to as "Malaguti style" or "Malaguti type" seat stay treatment.

the seat lug of the Agrati/"Bozzi" pattern lug ensemble shows the plugs




pattern a common one on Italian frames of the 1950's and 1960's era.  also employed widely by ACER-MEX for Windsor and Carabela badged products

a clearer view is afforded in this image of the Agrati "ROMA" lug ensemble Nr. 000.8020/E/U





Agrati seat lugs could be ordered bare, without binder ears or Malaguti plugs

or they could be ordered with standard binder ears and no Malaguti plus

or they could be ordered without binder ears and with Malaguti plugs

here are two images showing a Malguti seat cluster in bare metal -









factory sponsored a team at one time -





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## dnc1 (Nov 1, 2021)

Fantastic information @juvela, that last photo of the seat stay cluster from the rear is practically identical to my frameset.
I'm intending to have a good look all over the frameset for any further identifying marks on Wednesday, I'm out riding tomorrow.


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## juvela (Nov 1, 2021)

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two completed joint images in bare metal are of an actual Malguti lug

the images of the lugs loose are all of Agrati products  

more than 99% of all frames/cycles expressing the Malaguti style seat cluster are constructed with Agrati products

count yourself most fortunate to own an example of the Malaguti original!  😉

do not have exact years of Malaguti operation.  Agrati ceased the manufacture of bicycle related products about 1983, although they did purchase Torresini (Torpado) in the early 1980's and kept it going, at least for a time.

best wishes for fine weather upon the morrow's crepuscule   😃

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## dnc1 (Nov 1, 2021)

The forecast is for sun, light wind but low temperatures!


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## dnc1 (Nov 1, 2021)

Oh, and half of the mileage will be most definitely post crepuscular.
I have a musette ready stuffed with spare candles and a 1 inch diameter, dynamo driven, 3 Watt rear lamp


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## juvela (Nov 2, 2021)

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_possible _link -

there was a framebuilder who worked at Cinelli for about 20-25 years by the name of Remo Vecchi

he went on to work at ACER-MEX and is credited for the design of the Italian appearing products from that firm

sounds like you may already have a better avenue of research however...

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Falck -

the triangular shape of the transfer reminded me of one seen for this tubing supplier in the past, a faint memory

checked me files and there was at one time a Falck transfer of a triangular/shield shape but definitely not a match for the one on the cycle






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## dnc1 (Nov 3, 2021)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> _possible _link -
> 
> ...



Thanks for the further 'Vecchi'  research link. 
I'm still waiting to hear from the family business.

The 'St. George's Cross' design is possibly misleading I think re. the  shield shape decal; as much of the remainder of the decal may be missing. 
Hopefully one day another example will crop up.


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## juvela (Nov 15, 2021)

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Hello again D. -

heard back from Maurice and he suggests that the triangular/shield shaped transfer may have been for Libellula

the only transfers for this tubing have seen were simple downward pointing triangles but Maurice's knowledge be orders of magnitude beyond mine own

the machine's era and location make Libellula a good candidate for tubing

when you have the opportunity to examine the bicycle under good lighting you can check the frame tubes for any sign of the dragonfly hallmark -









1959 advert from German mail order supplier -





trade publication advert -





Maurice reports seeing one other Vecchi marked cycle in a Subito (Italian classifieds site similar to gumtree) listing of many years ago.  he writes that images were too poor to be of much use.

---

imagine you have plenty of information on the Cambio Corsa.  thought to add this bit in for other readers:




















images from bulgier.net & used with appreciation  😉 

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## dnc1 (Nov 15, 2021)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Hello again D. -
> 
> ...




Many, many thanks Roger, and please convey my gratitude to Mr. Moss for taking the time to cast an eye over the images I've posted thus far.
Very, very faintly seen on the inside faces of the upper section of both fork blades there is this very faint engraving.....








...this second image is a very enhanced photo taken with the help of my sons phone.
All I could see personally was the edge of the triangular outer shield under very strong torchlight!

The Cabe is a truly wonderful source of information.
Thanks again.

Still no reply yet from Signor Vecchi of Via Ravenna, 38.
We live in hope.


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## juvela (Nov 15, 2021)

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shall look forward to the updates as you continue to work with this machine       😃

here is a blog post regarding Libellula -






						Castello Mario & Figlio-Torino and "Libellula" Tubing
					

In my entry about Falck steel tubing for bicycles it appears my reference was incorrect about "Libellula" (dragonfly) type tubing as c...




					italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com
				





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## Jesper (Dec 31, 2021)

Really nice piece of Italian cycling history; frame/tubing, lugs, components, etc. I had to add it to my list of Italian brands because I had no record of it in the 100s (maybe 1000s] of marques I have documented.
Wish I had seen it earlier as I am familiar with the Libellula logo and could discern it from the decal remnant. Frame tubing stamp confirms it.
I would certainly date it post 1930s since there was not a Cambio Corsa product available to my knowledge; more likely mid 40s-50s with the "newer" lever design. Personally, my most reviled of Campagnolo mechs; the fact that someone won a race with this design only shows how strong a rider he was, not how well designed Campy's product was, especially considering what was available at the time. Chances I have had to buy the system and/or frame I have passed on because I want to enjoy my ride without all the hassle. I sure it will be interesting to use it; but fun, not in my opinion.
I know I have seen many bike frames with internal routing in the 50s; can't remember a 40s frame with that design. My guess it that it is a later '40s frame.

Thanks for the story behind the shop. I look forward to hearing if Sig. Vecchi replies.


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## dnc1 (Dec 31, 2021)

Jesper said:


> Really nice piece of Italian cycling history; frame/tubing, lugs, components, etc. I had to add it to my list of Italian brands because I had no record of it in the 100s (maybe 1000s] of marques I have documented.
> Wish I had seen it earlier as I am familiar with the Libellula logo and could discern it from the decal remnant. Frame tubing stamp confirms it.
> I would certainly date it post 1930s since there was not a Cambio Corsa product available to my knowledge; more likely mid 40s-50s with the "newer" lever design. Personally, my most reviled of Campagnolo mechs; the fact that someone won a race with this design only shows how strong a rider he was, not how well designed Campy's product was, especially considering what was available at the time. Chances I have had to buy the system and/or frame I have passed on because I want to enjoy my ride without all the hassle. I sure it will be interesting to use it; but fun, not in my opinion.
> I know I have seen many bike frames with internal routing in the 50s; can't remember a 40s frame with that design. My guess it that it is a later '40s frame.
> ...



Thanks for your insights @Jesper.
I feel you are not wrong re. the "fun" factor of the riding experience, but only when changing gear.
In fact, a friend who owns a set of the levers, rear hub and dropouts,  has decided not to build up a frameset,  after hearing of me bemoaning of its difficulty in use. He has decided subsequently to sell said parts!
Other than that though, it is a beautiful bike to ride, as long as you don't want to change gear too often. The frame really is a joy to ride.

The guy who sold it to me has subsequently tried to sell me two more examples of bikes with this system.
This is one of them.....





How 'Bartali' won that race using it makes me realise just how phenomenal a rider he was.
I would love to know how often he changed the gear cluster to suit the topography of various stages? Also, what size gearing he used?
As the 'Cambio Corsa' physically limits the larger size of rear gears, presumably he used much smaller chainrings on some stages.
I'm glad that you have been able to add to your list of Italian manufacturers.  I would love to see your list posted for all to use as a resource as there seems to be less information available on this front, compared to information available on machines from the UK or France for example.

Sadly,  I'm still waiting to hear back from Sig. Vecchi. I will try writing a letter in the new year, as I feel my email went straight into the 'spam' box.


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## Freqman1 (Dec 31, 2021)

I personally like the bikes equipped with either the Cambio Corsa or Paris Roubaix shifters. I just bought the Baldini bike off eBay and it should be leaving Italy at the first of the week. It definitely takes a lot of practice to master these and from what I read even the pros like Bartali and Coppi tried to limit changing gears. A lot of these Italian manufacturers are fairly obscure. I can find nothing on the Baldini bike except that Nicola Baldini was the uncle of Ercole Baldini who was an Olympic gold medalist and champion pro rider. As far as I know he’s still alive. V/r Shawn


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## dnc1 (Dec 31, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> I personally like the bikes equipped with either the Cambio Corsa or Paris Roubaix shifters. I just bought the Baldini bike off eBay and it should be leaving Italy at the first of the week. It definitely takes a lot of practice to master these and from what I read even the pros like Bartali and Coppi tried to limit changing gears. A lot of these Italian manufacturers are fairly obscure. I can find nothing on the Baldini bike except that Nicola Baldini was the uncle of Ercole Baldini who was an Olympic gold medalist and champion pro rider. As far as I know he’s still alive. V/r Shawn



I guess I just need more practice,  I'm sure I'll come to enjoy the experience. 
One thing I've noticed in period photos of Bartali is how low he has the seat height set in order to be able to reach the shifter levers. 
I think getting this right is key to comfortable, effortless shifting; or growing longer arms! Lol!
Ercole Baldini is quite a character apparently.  Sadly he is embroiled in a family dispute that is a little undignified for such a champion.


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## Jesper (Dec 31, 2021)

I should have clarified that it is only in the function of the Cambio Corsa that I am not pleased. I do like the way they look. I enjoy rods and levers all over the place, the more the better; kind of 'steam-punkish'.
@dnc1 , I would publish that list as is (even with the multitude of errors and omissions), except that I would be breaking a bunch if copyright laws. I have been copying, pasting, amending, appending, etc. the list for years. I added your comments to the new Vecchi entry so try not to sue me for plagiarism. I need to take what I have compiled and reorganize and/or reword it, as well as add credits for the information where possible. Even though it's pretty much a list of builders and marketing brands (with guesses for location and principal person) for bike frames; I have slowly (very slowly) started to add producers of components (and frame accessories; no personal gear or clothing [although I think shoes need to be added]), and frame parts (lugs, braze-ons, etc.) in the last year. I need to produce a bare bones list with only the hrand name so that others may vetify, dispute, correct, and/or add to it. My hope is to organize and document a fairly basic "Italia Bicyclopedia" for the public so that others won't have to needlessly search through the maze of information that I and many others before me have had to do.others. I am still sending out emails and real mail to old names on the list to see if some relative is still alive with knowledge of the marque's history before all with that knowledge are in the grave. Enough documented and anecdotal history has been lost already.


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## dnc1 (Jan 1, 2022)

Jesper said:


> I should have clarified that it is only in the function of the Cambio Corsa that I am not pleased. I do like the way they look. I enjoy rods and levers all over the place, the more the better; kind of 'steam-punkish'.
> @dnc1 , I would publish that list as is (even with the multitude of errors and omissions), except that I would be breaking a bunch if copyright laws. I have been copying, pasting, amending, appending, etc. the list for years. I added your comments to the new Vecchi entry so try not to sue me for plagiarism. I need to take what I have compiled and reorganize and/or reword it, as well as add credits for the information where possible. Even though it's pretty much a list of builders and marketing brands (with guesses for location and principal person) for bike frames; I have slowly (very slowly!) started to add producers of components (and frame accessories; no personal gear or clothing [although I think shoes should be added]), and frame parts (lugs, braze-ons, etc.) in the last year. I need to produce a bare bones list the is name only so that others could at least verify, dispute, and/or add to it. Just seeing the post of that bike you showed offered to you makes me wonder if I just found another new entry. I already have "Fior" and "Fiore" on the list. I could not make out if that badge was "Cicli G. Fiore, Fiori, or Fior". Also could not make out the city. If can enlighten me on that I would be most appreciative. My hope is to organize a fairly basic "Italia Bicyclopedia" for public use so others don't have to needlessly search through the maze of information as I and many others before me have. I am still sending out emails and real mails to old names on the list to see if some relative is still alive with knowledge of the marque's history. The sad thing is that there is contradicting information about some companies/brands that they themselves have perpetuated (i.e. Colnago) instead of setting the facts straight before another personality of cycling history is in the grave. Enough of it is already lost both documented and anecdotally.
> Note: Baldini is on the list already, but no more info than the name, as it is with many of my entries. I have some frames that are very much a mystery except best guesses by myself and others as to history and lineage.



Hopefully,  one day we will be able to see it, and enjoy it, and use it.
Good luck with the endeavour,  it is something many would appreciate.
As to your question,  I believe that bicycle is by Cicli G. Fior, of Forli, Emilia-Romagna.


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## Jesper (Jan 1, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> Hopefully,  one day we will br able to see it, and enjoy it, and use it.
> Good luck with the endeavour,  it is something many would appreciate.
> As to your question,  I believe that bicycle is by Cicli G. Fior, of Forli, Emilia-Romagna.



Thank you. Not sure why my post is 'lined out'; I'll try to fix it. Retyped it and still same problem; ?.

Fixed!


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## Jesper (Jan 1, 2022)

Here is the 'Disraeli Gears' version of how to operate the Cambio Corsa:


"First you drop out of the peleton so that you do not cause a catastrophic pile-up.
Then you twist the top lever. This slakens off your rear quick release.
Then you fiddle around with the lower lever while back pedalling in a hopeful attempt to force the chain onto the other of two sprockets that you have on your hub.
Then you pedal gently forward to 'position' the rear wheel.
Then you twist the top lever back to its original position to relock the quick release.
Then you sprint like crazy to try to get back onto the rear-most wheel of the peleton."
That is similar I believe to the early Vittoria Margherita system with the striker fork located above the cogs requiring reverse pedalling to properly engage the gear. There was an odd Vittoria model requiring rear wheel positioning to tension the chain, but I have no idea how it worked. My Simplex has the same design, but striker fork is low on the freewheel allowing continued forward pedalling.

What must have been a bit of a pain for frame builders was the fact that they had to build specifically for those drop-outs. Personally, I see more of those "Cambio Corsa" frames (and drop-outs) for sale than I ever see of the actual shifting systems themselves. It really was an obsolete design before it ever hit the market, but branding (and sponsorship) is everything..


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## dnc1 (Jan 1, 2022)

Jesper said:


> Here is the 'Disraeli Gears' version of how to operate the Cambio Corsa:
> 
> 
> "First you drop out of the peleton so that you do not cause a catastrophic pile-up.
> ...



I always think that this is the most apt description. 
I haven't crashed into any other riders yet, but when I look up after my clumsy fumbling with the levers I find I am often on the wrong side of the road!


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## Freqman1 (Jan 1, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> I always think that this is the most apt description.
> I haven't crashed into any other riders yet, but when I look up after my clumsy fumbling with the levers I find I am often on the wrong side of the road!



I’ve almost lost fingers trying to do this! For the most part I try to find a gear I like and stay there. I ride solo almost all the time but have to be careful not to wander in front of traffic! V/r Shawn


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## Jesper (Jan 1, 2022)

I still manually shift (finger lift chain going from small to large; shoe strike going from large to small) my front rings since I removed or never installed the front mech on a few frames (really don't use small ring that often in Florida). It's probably just as dangerous having to look down in order to avoid finger damage; full finger gloves help though.


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## Jesper (Jan 1, 2022)

I had noted on Disreali Gears that the patent applications for the Cambio Corsa design were filed (per official documents) in April 1943 for Italian patents and November 1943 for French patents (France patents issued in August 1944 & published in May 1945).


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## Freqman1 (Jan 1, 2022)

It’s been a while since I’ve researched these but it looks like most bikes I’ve seen are ‘47-9. I believe the Paris Roubaix was introduced in about ‘49 and was used through about ‘51. As others mentioned this is surprising to me given there were easier to use shifters out by this time. It’s hard to beat the cool factor though!


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## Jesper (Jan 1, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> It’s been a while since I’ve researched these but it looks like most bikes I’ve seen are ‘47-9. I believe the Paris Roubaix was introduced in about ‘49 and was used through about ‘51. As others mentioned this is surprising to me give their were easier to use shifters out by this time. It’s hard to beat the cool factor though!



I think a lot of it still had to do with companies sponsoring top teams and riders. Keeps your name/product in the public's eye. Considering frames had to be built for those designs; I doubt many builders would have spent the time and effort on something that they thought wouldn't be backed up with use by prominant teams.


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## Jesper (Jan 1, 2022)

@dnc1 , Here is an excerpt from my _Italia Bicyclopedia_ with the Vecchi entry including your post properly credited and referenced*, *and surrounded by many other 'well known' Italian brands:
*...
Vagner** (fork crowns; 40s?-80s? *French company, but also utilized by Italian builders)
*Vaira* (builder?, from Pinerolo Torino; private bike shop selling own brand Italian bikes; *Bianchi* dealer of Lombardia region)
*Valentino * (need to research)
*Valla*  (need to research)
*Vallorani*  (need to research)
*Valloreia * (need to research)
*Varsalona * (need to research)
*Vecchi, Cicli * (shop brand?, possible *Antonio Alpi* built frame?; est. 1938?; address Via Ravenna-38 Roma) [mid-late 1940s? frame example with 2nd-3rd? gen. *Cambio Corsa *shifting system and internal cable routing on top tube, *Libelulla* tubing] ["a shop at Via Ravenna 38, Roma is still there in the same form as a small shop; but today it, and the adjacent unit, is an opticians. The optician's shop is owned and run by a Signor Fulvio *Vecchi*, and their website says that the family has been in operation from this building since 1938! I am guessing that he may be the son, grandson, or great grandson of this bike's originator." {October 2021; from dnc1; https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/cicli-vecchi-roma-italia.199049/unread}]
*Vecchietti *(need to research)
*Vedovati Benedetti* (need to research)
*Vektor* (*Magliano Alpi*)
*Velital* (by *Olmo*, Celle Ligure)
*Veloetruria* (need to research)
...

That is essentially what my current list looks like. Anything in *bold *is referenced. As you can see (and can't see); many many names without any info, so much work is left to do.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 1, 2022)

Jesper said:


> @dnc1 , Here is an excerpt from my _Italia Bicyclopedia_ with the Vecchi entry including your post properly credited and referenced*, *and surrounded by many other 'well known' Italian brands:
> *...
> Vagner** (fork crowns; 40s?-80s? *French company, but also utilized by Italian builders)
> *Vaira* (builder?, from Pinerolo Torino; private bike shop selling own brand Italian bikes; *Bianchi* dealer of Lombardia region)
> ...



Not to hi-Jack this thread but I mentioned in this thread I recently purchased a Nical Baldini with a Cambio Corsa but can find nothing on the company. The seller stated that he was the uncle of champion Italian cyclist Ercole Baldini. Any info or help is much appreciated. I’ll start a separated post on the bike as well. V/r Shawn


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## juvela (Jan 1, 2022)

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one marque missing from that alphabetical list is that of Velocina

machines of this badge were done by Garlatti of Parma

only reason know is that one passed through me workshop


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## Jesper (Jan 1, 2022)

Thanks @juvela and @Freqman1 
I know there are many omissions, but just showing a small bit of the list makes it quite obvious that it is incomplete. I will add the Velocina brand; feel free to provide any other brands you want. I will double check all submissions. I had Baldini on the list already, but no information on it yet; as with many brands all I have is a name at present. I have added the information provided. I'll check a couple European resources and ask if they might have any input on the Baldini, and I'll keep an eye out for the post if I am not overwhelmed by the new COVID strain. Already lost 60% of our OR Pre-Op staff last week; hoping I won't get bit!


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## dnc1 (Jan 2, 2022)

Jesper said:


> @dnc1 , Here is an excerpt from my _Italia Bicyclopedia_ with the Vecchi entry including your post properly credited and referenced*, *and surrounded by many other 'well known' Italian brands:
> *...
> Vagner** (fork crowns; 40s?-80s? *French company, but also utilized by Italian builders)
> *Vaira* (builder?, from Pinerolo Torino; private bike shop selling own brand Italian bikes; *Bianchi* dealer of Lombardia region)
> ...



Thanks for the insight.
I have a better photo now of that other bikes headbadge from a couple of days ago and it looks like I was wrong re. the name.
It is "CICLI G. FIORI" of Forli.
Keep up the great work.


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## dnc1 (Jan 5, 2022)

I went out for another practice run today.
15 miles,  fairly flat terrain. 
Two gear changes attempted,  and I'm very happy to report, both attempts were successful!
Finally.....


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## Jesper (Jan 6, 2022)

@dnc1 , glad you were able to get out and give it a good ride. Was the gearing fairly reasonable? It looks like a 46t-48t front; I didn't really look at the rear sizes. I did notice that the freewheel teeth appeared rather "worn" on the 2 smaller cogs. Do you know if that is a designed tooth specifically for these shifting systems, or is it just decades of wear from use? I was wondering before your ride post if that might have affected gear shifting above and beyond the shifting system itself.

While perusing European sales sites I stumbled across an old "Cambio Corsa" frame set for $125 USD (decals were gone so unidentified brand). All I would need to do is spend about $800-$1000 to build it up with the shifting system (I saw the spoke guard on sale recently for $175); that wouldn't even include the wheels or brakes!


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## Jesper (Jan 6, 2022)

While doing some research on other Campy stuff I ran across this timeline referencing
the Cambio Corsa system. I am not sure if the 1934 entry referring to the advert means that it was published in 1934 also.

*"1933*
After fabricating parts in the backroom of his father's hardware store (Corsa Padova 101, Vincenza), Tullio starts Campagnolo, S.r.l. with the production of the quick release hub. The sliding hub, dual seatstay rod operated, back pedal derailleur (cambio prototype) is patented on May 4th and introduced in August. The pieces of the prototype derailleur are all handmade requiring a massive investment of time and labor. Fratelli Brivio of Brescia (F.B.) becomes the subcontractor for the parts and supplier of the three-piece (steel barrel with aluminum flanges) hubs. Later, the official corporate name becomes _Campagnolo Brevetti Internazionali SpA_ (translation: Campagnolo International Patents Incorporated).

*1934*
_Cambio a bacchetta_ (translation: rod changer) or Cambio "CAMPAGNOLO" is the name used for sliding hub, dual seatstay rod operated, back pedal derailleur. The slogan becomes "Senza attriti e senza rumore" (i.e., Friction-free and noise-free). The first advertisement for the Cambio "CAMPAGNOLO" appears in _Gazzetta dello Sport_."

credit: velo-retro; Chuck Schmidt


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## Freqman1 (Jan 6, 2022)

Jesper said:


> While doing some research on other Campy stuff I ran across this timeline referencing
> the Cambio Corsa system. I am not sure if the 1934 entry referring to the advert means that it was published in 1934 also.
> 
> *"1933*
> ...



I saw that before as well but wonder if he ever got past a few prototypes in the prewar period because I can't say I have ever seen a bona fide prewar cambio drivetrain. V/r Shawn


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## dnc1 (Jan 7, 2022)

Jesper said:


> @dnc1 , glad you were able to get out and give it a good ride. Was the gearing fairly reasonable? It looks like a 46t-48t front; I didn't really look at the rear sizes. I did notice that the freewheel teeth appeared rather "worn" on the 2 smaller cogs. Do you know if that is a designed tooth specifically for these shifting systems, or is it just decades of wear from use? I was wondering before your ride post if that might have affected gear shifting above and beyond the shifting system itself.
> 
> While perusing European sales sites I stumbled across an old "Cambio Corsa" frame set for $125 USD (decals were gone so unidentified brand). All I would need to do is spend about $800-$1000 to build it up with the shifting system (I saw the spoke guard on sale recently for $175); that wouldn't even include the wheels or brakes!



I think the cassette is just worn from overuse on the two smaller cogs.
For the record, it's a 50 tooth chainring with a 17/19/21 tooth cluster. 
That gives gear ratios of 77.78/69.58/62.97 inches respectively on 700x25c tyres.
I'll look out for a period 3-speed replacement cluster at some point I think. 



Freqman1 said:


> I saw that before as well but wonder if he ever got past a few prototypes in the prewar period because I can't say I have ever seen a bona fide prewar cambio drivetrain. V/r Shawn



I agree, I don't think that many were manufactured before WW2.
In a recent series of booklets published in the 'Quaderni Eroici' series there is one pre-war example featured.
In the edition featuring the work of Licinio Marastoni there is a 1938 example badged as a 'Sprinter' bicycle.
There is also a late 1940's example by Francesco Galmozzi, badged as a 'Lazzaretti' which also features internal cable routing for the rear brake as my 'Vecchi' does.
There are several Antonio Alpi built examples from the late 1940’s that are variously badged as 'Alpi', 'Galloni' and 'Resta'
I imagine that every reputable framebuilder (of which there were very many) had such a frame in his range of products for a short period, perhaps from 1938 to 1951 with obviously a gap in production (probably) from 1939 to 1945.


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## dnc1 (Jan 7, 2022)

I've just been looking at Campagnolo catalogues from 1953 (Catalogue #12) and 1955 (#13) and both catalogues are still offering the 'Cambio Corsa' alongside the 'Paris-Roubaix' single lever rod system and the 'Gran Sport' conventional rear derailleur; so I think that the date range should probably be 1938 to perhaps 1955 or slightly later?


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## Freqman1 (Jan 7, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> I've just been looking at Campagnolo catalogues from 1953 (Catalogue #12) and 1955 (#13) and both catalogues are still offering the 'Cambio Corsa' alongside the 'Paris-Roubaix' single lever rod system and the 'Gran Sport' conventional rear derailleur; so I think that the date range should probably be 1938 to perhaps 1955 or slightly later?



I'm guessing there was very little demand for these past about '50 when there were better options not only from Campagnolo but may others as well. Surprisingly I see more than a few framesets on eBay set up for these drivetrains. Building one out gets expensive which is why I only buy complete bikes. V/r Shawn


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## Jesper (Jan 24, 2022)

Aside from decrying the performance aspects of the Cambio Corsa system; I am at present pursuing the purchase of a complete bike with that system and complete 40s Campy front hub and Universal brakes. Cost at this time is €550 after discussions with seller; but the seller says Italian post can't ship due to box size. It is up to me to figure out how to ship; Fedex wants $2000 (insane!). Any ideas?


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## Freqman1 (Jan 24, 2022)

Jesper said:


> Aside from decrying the performance aspects of the Cambio Corsa system; I am at present pursuing the purchase of a complete bike with that system and complete 40s Campy front hub and Universal brakes. Cost at this time is €550 after discussions with seller; but the seller says Italian post can't ship due to box size. It is up to me to figure out how to ship; Fedex wants $2000 (insane!). Any ideas?



I just had one shipped by Italian Post and USPS delivered to me. Although I only paid $139 shipping I’m not sure what the actual cost was but I can assure you it was no where close to $2k! I’ve had two other bikes shipped from Italy and the cost may have been a couple hundred tops. Just curious is this Dario? V/r Shawn


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## dnc1 (Jan 24, 2022)

My example was shipped by the Italian national postal service,  'Poste Italiano', then delivered by our national postal service,  'Royal Mail'.
The bike shop in Bologna had no issues and it cost around €200 on top of the price of the bicycle. 
I realise it may be different shipping it to the UK ( as in my case) or shipping it to the US (as you will be); although now (post 'Brexit') the UK is considered to be outside of Europe for shipping purposes, ie. we're grouped in with 'the rest of the world'.
Sometimes box size can be an issue re. shipping by air, I wonder if you can get it packaged slightly  smaller?


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## Jesper (Jan 24, 2022)

Box size as given by seller is 149cm x 80cm x 21cm. I saw the bike in the box, but I don't know exactly how far it was dismantled in the photo. I think aside from the wheels, the handlebar was removed; not sure if that included the stem or not. If the cranks (drive side anyways, and saddle/post were removed it shouldn't be that large aside from box width. I will ask how much has been broken down. It should not be a problem to remove the fork also, but I am not sure if I am just dealing with a bike owner trying to sell, or a bike owner with knowledge and tools regarding full disassembly of a bike. I also need to know what the Italian post's max. box size is. I would have no problem paying 200 euro given the total cost would still be under $1000, and the seller has been super nice in offering to ship as well as taking it apart and boxing it to the extent that he has. I do have a couple of friends over there whom I get parts and frames from (just had 2 frame sets sent for $60 total) so I'll inquire how they ship, and ask how far they are from the bike's location since I know they would get it for me if not too much trouble; and I'd pay them something for their time and effort to boot. I'd be happy with about 800 euros ($900) total cost for me; but up to a 875 euros ($1000) would still be okay. I know I would be paying $800-$1000 in parts alone in the US aside from a $300-$400 frame; but I have a budget too. 
It's funny because I was trying to buy a set of early 1950s Universal calipers for 15 euro which an Italian guy said he had no problem shipping (drop them in a padded envelope) to the US (not an ebay sale), but after a month of back and forth, and me telling him I would pay up to 20 euros for shipping (I regularly get same type stuff from Italy for 15 euros or less; and I saw calipers on ebay this month shipping from Italy for 10 euros). He said he would check the cost, but only came back with how it has cost him 30 euros to ship to like items to Germany; but not what the actual cost would be for the US. The item has been on sale for a couple months so not sure why it is a problem to get an actual cost. I think he was trying to take me for a ride on shipping so I dropped that issue even though I knew he could make more money shipping for 20 euros per my recent experience.


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## Jesper (Jan 24, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> I just had one shipped by Italian Post and USPS delivered to me. Although I only paid $139 shipping I’m not sure what the actual cost was but I can assure you it was no where close to $2k! I’ve had two other bikes shipped from Italy and the cost may have been a couple hundred tops. Just curious is this Dario? V/r Shawn



I am not Dario; and Dario is not the seller either. I am a veteran though, and now working for the VA (hospital); thanks for your service! Jesper is my middle name.


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## dnc1 (Jan 25, 2022)

Jesper said:


> Box size as given by seller is 149cm x 80cm x 21cm. I saw the bike in the box, but I don't know exactly how far it was dismantled in the photo. I think aside from the wheels, the handlebar was removed; not sure if that included the stem or not. If the cranks (drive side anyways, and saddle/post were removed it shouldn't be that large aside from box width. I will ask how much has been broken down. It should not be a problem to remove the fork also, but I am not sure if I am just dealing with a bike owner trying to sell, or a bike owner with knowledge and tools regarding full disassembly of a bike. I also need to know what the Italian post's max. box size is. I would have no problem paying 200 euro given the total cost would still be under $1000, and the seller has been super nice in offering to ship as well as taking it apart and boxing it to the extent that he has. I do have a couple of friends over there whom I get parts and frames from (just had 2 frame sets sent for $60 total) so I'll inquire how they ship, and ask how far they are from the bike's location since I know they would get it for me if not too much trouble; and I'd pay them something for their time and effort to boot. I'd be happy with about 800 euros ($900) total cost for me; but up to a 875 euros ($1000) would still be okay. I know I would be paying $800-$1000 in parts alone in the US aside from a $300-$400 frame; but I have a budget too.
> It's funny because I was trying to buy a set of early 1950s Universal calipers for 15 euro which an Italian guy said he had no problem shipping (drop them in a padded envelope) to the US (not an ebay sale), but after a month of back and forth, and me telling him I would pay up to 20 euros for shipping (I regularly get same type stuff from Italy for 15 euros or less; and I saw calipers on ebay this month shipping from Italy for 10 euros). He said he would check the cost, but only came back with how it has cost him 30 euros to ship to like items to Germany; but not what the actual cost would be for the US. The item has been on sale for a couple months so not sure why it is a problem to get an actual cost. I think he was trying to take me for a ride on shipping so I dropped that issue even though I knew he could make more money shipping for 20 euros per my recent experience.



I can't help re. the maximum box size that they allow,  but I know it can be a problem from past experience. 
My example had the wheels, bar/stem/levers combo and saddle/stem removed from the frame and was fitted into a standard cardboard bike box that you get from a retailer.
The chainset was still fitted and there were no pedals so that wasn't an issue.
These boxes do come in at least 3 sizes though as you are probably aware, although the dimensions you've  quoted seem pretty regular. 
I would suggest that you seek your friends' help and hopefully they could sort it out for you; an inexperienced seller can be problematic in these situations.

As to your other point,  the feeling that the seller is making a profit on the shipping is becoming far more common. Not always just the seller though, it also is becoming increasingly obvious that the shipping costs automatically generated on Ebay are, frankly ridiculous!
I buy stuff from France regularly and I question every shipping quote that they give me and often end up paying around 25% of the originally quoted costs.


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## dnc1 (Jan 26, 2022)

Jesper said:


> @dnc1 , glad you were able to get out and give it a good ride. Was the gearing fairly reasonable? It looks like a 46t-48t front; I didn't really look at the rear sizes. I did notice that the freewheel teeth appeared rather "worn" on the 2 smaller cogs. Do you know if that is a designed tooth specifically for these shifting systems, or is it just decades of wear from use? I was wondering before your ride post if that might have affected gear shifting above and beyond the shifting system itself.
> 
> While perusing European sales sites I stumbled across an old "Cambio Corsa" frame set for $125 USD (decals were gone so unidentified brand). All I would need to do is spend about $800-$1000 to build it up with the shifting system (I saw the spoke guard on sale recently for $175); that wouldn't even include the wheels or brakes!



On closer viewing,  I'm now of the opinion that the freewheel teeth on the middle and high gears may actually be designed specifically for this system. 
Someone else has suggested that this may be the case for some of the freewheels used with these systems and I am curious to know more.
Here is a close up of the freewheel.....





...As you can see, from the cleaned up high gear wheel, it does look more designed, than worn. 
Does anyone recognise the manufacturer?
I would be interested to see close up photos of any of your examples @Freqman1 to see if there are any similarities.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 26, 2022)

Here’s the one on my Baldini which is only a three speed whereas most seem to be four speeds. The Paris Roubaix shifter could accommodate five speeds. V/r Shawn


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## juvela (Jan 26, 2022)

-----

thanks very much for this image; it provides a reminder that Way-Assauto was at one time a maker of cogs and gear blocks

if one were to take the gear block as original to the cycle then it would seem a good possibility that the original drive chain was a Way-Assauto product also









here is a clearer view of the firm's logo -





upon first encountering it forty-five or fifty years ago thought there to be a brand of cycle fittings from Italy called "Wa"

only later did learn of the full name...

Way-Assauto is yet in operation today although the firm ceased fabrication of cycle fittings in 1972

-----


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## dnc1 (Jan 26, 2022)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> thanks very much for this image; it provides a reminder that Way-Assauto was at one time a maker of cogs and gear blocks
> 
> ...



Thanks @juvela.
I wonder why they stamped their logo in 'mirror image' style? I can read that it says "Way" now, but backwards!.
Did they always do this on their products?


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## juvela (Jan 26, 2022)

-----

excellent question

first can recall of seeing it done this way

their best known cycle products are headsets and pedals

here it is on a pedal  -








-----


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## dnc1 (Jan 26, 2022)

I think this maybe my freewheel,  or perhaps a very slightly later version.
From the 'Emilio Bozzi, Milano' catalogue of 1950.....




...and what a useful resource that is if you like Italian bicycles from that era!

This image suggests that my freewheel is incredibly well used!
I will check the chain for markings tomorrow.


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## Freqman1 (Jan 29, 2022)

Jesper said:


> Aside from decrying the performance aspects of the Cambio Corsa system; I am at present pursuing the purchase of a complete bike with that system and complete 40s Campy front hub and Universal brakes. Cost at this time is €550 after discussions with seller; but the seller says Italian post can't ship due to box size. It is up to me to figure out how to ship; Fedex wants $2000 (insane!). Any ideas?



I just made a deal this morning for another Cambio Corsa equipped bike (thanks to @dnc1) and shipping cost was 150 euro or about $170. The last one I received through Italian post and the box measured 43" long x 12" wide x 32" tall. It took about two weeks to get here. V/r Shawn


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## Freqman1 (Jan 29, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> On closer viewing,  I'm now of the opinion that the freewheel teeth on the middle and high gears may actually be designed specifically for this system.
> Someone else has suggested that this may be the case for some of the freewheels used with these systems and I am curious to know more.
> Here is a close up of the freewheel.....
> View attachment 1556933
> ...



I'll try to post some pics today of some of mine. I believe I also have a loose freewheel as well. V/r Shawn


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## dnc1 (Jan 29, 2022)

Freqman1 said:


> I just made a deal this morning for another Cambio Corsa equipped bike (thanks to @dnc1) and shipping cost was 150 euro or about $170. The last one I received through Italian post and the box measured 43" long x 12" wide x 32" tall. It took about two weeks to get here. V/r Shawn



Very much looking forward to seeing this latest addition to your stable.
And I'll look forward to seeing some freewheels too.


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## juvela (Jan 29, 2022)

-----

NB on Bozzi catalogue and Way-Assauto products -

W-A items are listed throughout with the letters *W.A. *in bold

there are chainsets, chainwheels, headsets, pedals and drive chains as well (IIRC!)

having this marking in the catalogue is convenient as a great many of the items listed are shown without a maker's name.  this gives some readers the misapprehension that that they are Bozzi produced manufactures...

-----


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## dnc1 (Jan 30, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> I think this maybe my freewheel,  or perhaps a very slightly later version.
> From the 'Emilio Bozzi, Milano' catalogue of 1950.....
> View attachment 1557071
> 
> ...



My chain is devoid of any markings, on either side.


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## juvela (Jan 30, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> My chain is devoid of any markings, on either side.




-----

thank you!   😃

are plates flat or beveled?

is colour black, off-black, blued or caramel?


-----


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## dnc1 (Jan 30, 2022)

I will get back to you tomorrow re. the above questions.


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## HBSyncro (Jan 30, 2022)

Great thread, although I only understand about half of it! I was fortunate to visit the Bartali Museum in Firenze and getting there and back was quite an adventure while the rest of the family did something else.  I now have visions of my retirement...wandering the back alleys of Italy looking for vintage bikes.


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## dnc1 (Jan 30, 2022)

HBSyncro said:


> Great thread, although I only understand about half of it! I was fortunate to visit the Bartali Museum in Firenze and getting there and back was quite an adventure while the rest of the family did something else.  I now have visions of my retirement...wandering the back alleys of Italy looking for vintage bikes.



Italy or France perhaps,  I can think of worse things to do in your retirement. 
Fine bicycles, fine wines and fine foods!


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## dnc1 (May 13, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> I will get back to you tomorrow re. the above questions.



Having said that I'd get back to you tomorrow back on January 30th @juvela, I am getting back to you now.
Somewhat tardy, I'll admit.
I've just found a mark on the chain.
It's not on every side plate and the chain was rather dirty when I first looked.....





...you were right, it matches the freewheel in being from 'Way Assauto'.


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## bulldog1935 (May 14, 2022)

Chains wear out by stretching links, which in turn, wears out teeth on cogs and rings.
Before you use an old chain, you should probably check it for stretch.






borrowed your new chain photo


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## juvela (May 14, 2022)

dnc1 said:


> Having said that I'd get back to you tomorrow back on January 30th @juvela, I am getting back to you now.
> Somewhat tardy, I'll admit.
> I've just found a mark on the chain.
> It's not on every side plate and the chain was rather dirty when I first looked.....
> ...




-----

thanks for checking D.   😉

















[above images courtesy of CR and VB]
-----


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