# Here's one for the sleuths



## fordsnake (Apr 28, 2020)

I was asked the other day if I could ID this bike. The owner had been told it was a Westfield. I don't see the usual Westfield signature characteristics, but I could be blind. Lord knows its not the first time I've been wrong!  I asked the owner if I could present this head scratcher to you guys for an answer and he welcomed the idea. 




At first glimpse, I suspected maybe a Dayton? So I immediately went to  https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/show-your-davis-built-bicycles.20560/page-18  I did find a similar bike (posts # 342 thru #346) It seems the bike even stumped Patric.  I've attached photos of both bikes and their similarities. Anyone have a clue to the maker?


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## bike (Apr 28, 2020)

Does the crank have a drive pin for the sprocket?


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## SKPC (Apr 28, 2020)

Below are three(4 images) bikes that I have stuck away in my moto-bike files.  1st is an "unknown" motobike very similar to the above frames.  2nd is what supposedly is "known"(?) to be a Schwinn- made bike. 3rd&4th images are of a solo frameset with a closeup of the front T-joinery on the head tube. This long crotch trumpet was ID'd as most likely schwinn.  These lower top tube Trumpet tube ends are all very different maker to maker.
       The T-mouth joinery in the 1st image is sorta close the the above frames but not quite the same.  The lower truss tubes in pics 2,3 & 4 below look to have the trumpet mouth joinery that intersects the head and down tubes and on the other end at the seat mast and are the same diameter as the main top tube.  This could be a sign of the early Schwinns...as per @hoofhearted and others' observations.  The double top tubes below look to be the same diameter but not in Fordsnake's two frames, where the tubes are clearly of different sizes,  so not schwinn?  The question then becomes which other makers built moto frames like this with the lower top tube trumpets in the crotch up front and on the seat mast? Many did and alot of variation.  And, I wonder if schwinn_ always_ used the same diameter tubes for both of the top tubes?


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## fordsnake (Apr 28, 2020)

bike said:


> Does the crank have a drive pin for the sprocket?




I removed the sprocket via photoshop because it was an obvious misleading clue. The sprocket was a Westfield DD Indian chainring, hence, the owner believing the bike’s was a Westfield. ID'ing a bike is the sum of many factors and not the focus of just one part. Its what makes the TOC and Teen era fascinating and equally difficult, there are so many variables and nuances.


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## Goldenindian (Apr 28, 2020)

Chicyco-Looking for info | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

I came across this bike last week, and have not been able to find much information on who actually made it. Is it Schwinn? Does anyone here have any photos that could help me with what the original paint looked like? Thanks!   Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




					thecabe.com
				




This thread had a lot of these motobikes. Still kind of a mystery to me. D.P Harris Snyder manufacturing was one idea...


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## gkeep (Apr 28, 2020)

Those forks and truss rods look similar to the ones on the frame I found. My frame has the Westfield indicators, (collared lug on seat post, rounded fitting at rear dropouts, badge shadow/outline matches known Westfield badges, Stutz, Stormer, Syracuse) and I figured the forks came from another bike. There are similar forks on a 1919 Simmons motorbike for sale at LuxLow.


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## rustyspoke66 (Apr 28, 2020)

I would say Haverford Cycle Co. I have this frame set That I picked up here on the Cabe. The only other detail other than the for and the slotted screws for the truss rods would be the cross bridge supports between the chain stays and seat stays.


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## SKPC (Apr 28, 2020)

Maybe, maybe not.  The more you look at the two original frames posted, you see they are also very different from each other. Even though they both have steep head angles, non-parallel top tubes and similar serial numbers, etc.. The fork on the above Havorford bike looks similar, but different  truss ends  by the axle.   The two bikes in question at the top have welded ones, the havorford does not.


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## bentwoody66 (Apr 28, 2020)

Maybe Flying Mercury



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## JO BO (May 2, 2020)

Pretty close....front fender has 2 braces instead of one....different rack which doesn’t mean much...on mystery bike under that red primer are areas of orange paint but is on head tube as well....no blue.   Fenders have very old traces of red paint.......would be circus bike.  (Orange with red fenders)....also the only Flying Mercury badge I found has vertical holes where this bike was horizontal.


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## eddy2dice (May 5, 2020)

fordsnake said:


> I was asked the other day if I could i.d. this bike. The owner had been told it was a Westfield. I don't see the usual Westfield signature characteristics, but I could be blind. Lord knows its not the first time I've been wrong!  I asked the owner if I could present this head scratcher to you guys for an answer and he welcomed the idea. View attachment 1182971
> 
> At first glimpse, I suspected maybe a Dayton? So I immediately went to  https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/show-your-davis-built-bicycles.20560/page-18  I did find a similar bike (posts # 342 thru #346) It seems the bike even stumped Patric.  I've attached photos of both bikes and their similarities. Anyone have a clue to the maker?
> View attachment 1183012
> ...



I have a very similar mystery bike I got today, here’s the thread I posted!









						HELP! TEENS? MOTOBIKE MYSTERY FRAME I.D. | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

Hi folks, I bought this mystery teens? 20s motobike Bare frame and haven’t a clue!! Can anyone please shed any light, there’s no badge but has vertical badge holes aprox 2 7/8” apart, has a slightly thinner lower top tube with trumpet joinery that meets the head touching the bottom tube that...




					thecabe.com


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## bricycle (May 5, 2020)

My Mead Premier is like the Haverford frame and also takes the skinny Elgin switched tank.








						Sunday's Show and Tell. ...4/12/15 | General Discussion About Old Bicycles
					

So glad all that cold weather is over with. Swaps, shows, and bike rides.....tis is the season!  So let's see what classics you have found from this past weekend.  Whether it be bike related or not.  Please include pictures as we do love pictures!    I was contacted by a friend about this 1964...




					thecabe.com


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## bricycle (May 5, 2020)

1915 Napoleon project | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

OK,  thank you




					thecabe.com


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## bricycle (May 5, 2020)

bentwoody66 said:


> Maybe Flying MercuryView attachment 1183437
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



I have a replated? chain wheel for a Flying Mercury (#3 https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/fs-chain-wheel-of-fortune.125085/


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## JO BO (May 10, 2020)

Btt


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## dave the wave (May 10, 2020)

with a fork crown like that and fish mouth to the seat post mast maybe early 1914-16 Pope.i don't know when they went to Westfield after that.


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## JO BO (May 14, 2020)

Adding a bunch more pics to see if that helps.    Some pieces I assume are not original to the bike but I’d if you can. Thanks.


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## JO BO (May 14, 2020)

2 inch on center badge holes...interesting little holes on fork 2 on one side one on the other


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## JO BO (May 14, 2020)

More pics


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## JO BO (May 14, 2020)

Fender edge rolled inward...traces of orange under primer everywhere. Fenders have very old red tracesand if you want more pics here you go


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## JO BO (May 14, 2020)

Wheel rims have long spoke nipples.....top bar and other main bars appear 1 inch and lower bar about .900 Indian crank and ring that came out is a little different than another Indian ring I have as it doesn’t have an inside bevel. Same size as Harley chainring.  From reading Hendee thread. One of bike is 1916-1919 and ring on right is 1920-21


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## JO BO (May 14, 2020)

More pics


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## JO BO (Mar 5, 2021)

Still haven't pinned this down....so any help with ad/pics other examples are welcome. Thanks


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## Archie Sturmer (Mar 5, 2021)

For a Westfield, the serial number prefix of an “H” might indicate about 1930.  That was about the time that Westfield discontinued the “band” as shown in post #6.  That detail has *confused* me before.  However, I am not too familiar with the taller Westfield motorbike frames.
About confusion, I just realized or remembered that this is “*one* *of* *those*” 2-bike threads.


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## JO BO (Feb 26, 2022)

Btt.  Something definitive sure would be nice...would love to build it back to original equipment if I could just find out for sure what it is.


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## SKPC (Feb 26, 2022)

I think @dave the wave  is closest.


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## JO BO (Mar 18, 2022)

Bump


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## JO BO (Oct 2, 2022)

Would love to get positive Id on this. Thanks to anyone who may provide evidence


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## SKPC (Oct 4, 2022)

Chicyco-Looking for info | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

Great Machine you have !!  CAUTION ... Avoid any inclination to clean this badge.  This machine may be the only example of a Schwinn-Built  CHICYCO (CHIcago CYcle COmpany) Bicycle known, bearing that particular badge.  It is very important that the badge  stay with this particular machine...




					thecabe.com
				



The more I look at this frame, the more I lean towards early Snyder as the frame/fork maker. Straight seat stays and thin fender bridges seem to be a Snyder characteristic most all the time.  @Goldenindian had some good examples linked above.


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## JO BO (Oct 4, 2022)

Thanks for pointing me in that direction. I hope now I can find a model that had a horizontal badge hole arrangement as all Snyder related so far I have found have been vertical. Hard to find much on early Snyder ..    I am still thinking this is early teens


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