# Cadre et fourche de piste?



## dnc1 (Jun 26, 2018)

Another find from the "Velo Vintage Anjou" bikejumble.
It's obviously not a 'Colnago' pista frame, but what marque might it be?



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
I think I've covered every angle, lol!
Any thoughts and information gratefully received and appreciated.
Thanks,
Darren.


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## MauriceMoss (Jun 27, 2018)

The lugs, swagged seat stay caps, numbers stamped on the dropout, mixed domed/fish mouth ends, all point towards this being a Bertin. 
Something along the lines of this:













More here.

Also see this one.


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## bulldog1935 (Jun 27, 2018)

Darren, you are missing one view - Many times, the bottom of the BB shell can help

Please note, not suggesting your frame is Viner, but pointing out the BB shell cut-out on this example



 



but you may want to do some more searching on Vicini (still making bikes today) because an oblique view in the following photoset suggests the lug cut-outs may match yours
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Vicini.htm





Both Italian and French BB have RH threads on both sides, so you'll need to gauge thread pitch.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-bottombrackets.html
If it has a Swiss LH thread on right side of BB, it's a French frame.
Relentless Italians stuck with right-side RH Ital thread until ISIS.

that's also a Very Italian fork, though the French more-and-more mimicked Italian in later years.
(even on pista bikes with steep head angle, French traditionally like fork offset)


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## juvela (Jun 27, 2018)

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Hello Darren,

Thank you for all of the additional pictures.

The initial two were not enough.

Lugset is BOCAMA Competition 76 with cutout nr. R3.

This seat stay cap usually indicates a frankish product.

Markings on dropout - 60 is size in cms, upside down 8 is a date.  Me guess would be MCMLXXVIII.

Seat binder is ALGI.

Suspect gaulic heritage.   Tube diameters and threading of shell & steerer will be metric.

Alerted my friend MauriceMoss who shall be able to enlighten us all...in detail.  

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## juvela (Jun 27, 2018)

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Ooops!

Only now able to see Maurice's terrific post.

Perhaps there was a delay in its appearance due to him being a new member.   

Thank you for all of this great information Maurice!  

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## dnc1 (Jun 27, 2018)

Thanks to all for helping out, @bulldog1935, @juvela and especially @MauriceMoss. That's a great first posting!
I'm thinking of going 100% French on this build, or would all Campagnolo be appropriate for a bicycle of this era?


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## bulldog1935 (Jun 27, 2018)

you're going to have to measure and find out. 
Tough to beat a 141 bcd Campy Pista crank, and you can probably match the ISO taper spindle to whatever BB thread you need. 

fwiw, I rode 35,000 mi on my Rigida rims from 1978


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## juvela (Jun 27, 2018)

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Hello again Darren,

If it were me I would consider 1978 a "hard" date and not employ any fittings of a later time.

Replacement Bertin transfers are readily available.

You could go all Campag if you wished.

It is more mentally and visually interesting to go with french fittings as there are multiple quality time appropriate options at each point on the machine...

The Bertin numbering system was to place the size or serial above the axle slot in the left dropout and the date (year) below the axle slot.

Here is an interesting one on a frame Bertin did for Urago - the two owners were friendly and there was cooperation.  They also operated in opposite corners of the country so competition not a big issue.



 

The letter U here indicates it was done for Urago and the numeral fifty-nine is the year of manufacture.

In case any readers are unfamiliar with it there is an excellent enthusiast site for Bertin bicycles with a great deal of history information:

https://bertinclassiccycles.wordpress.com/

Thanks once again to Maurice for his outstanding help!  

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## bertinjim (Jun 27, 2018)

dnc1-

Your "Colnago" is a late 1970s (78?)  Bertin C 56 built in Vitus 888. There is a link here with example photos and details. Same geometry as the C 38 but less expensive tubing.


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## bulldog1935 (Jun 27, 2018)

bertinjim said:


> dnc1-
> 
> Your "Colnago" is a late 1970s (78?)  Bertin C 56 built in Vitus 888. There is a link here with example photos and details. Same geometry as the C 38 but less expensive tubing.



our friend has a bare frame and fork - can you tell him the threading on everything to get him started?
maybe @MauriceMoss ?


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## juvela (Jun 27, 2018)

bulldog1935 said:


> he has a bare frame and fork - can you tell him the threading on everything to get him started?




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M

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## MauriceMoss (Jun 27, 2018)

dnc1 said:


> Thanks to all for helping out, @bulldog1935, @juvela and especially @MauriceMoss. That's a great first posting!
> I'm thinking of going 100% French on this build, or would all Campagnolo be appropriate for a bicycle of this era?




You're welcome! I'm glad I could help out. My friend @juvela tagged me over on BikeForums about this ID thread, so I just created an account here.

I also see that @beritnjim nailed the exact model!


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## dnc1 (Jun 28, 2018)

Thanks again to @juvela, @bulldog1935, @MauriceMoss and @bertinjim.
Sterling work one and all.
I think I will go down the French route re. components, as @juvela said the range of possibilities is greater, and slightly less costly! Lol.
I will need to repaint I think. I've noticed that their are many different paint colours on the 'bertinclassiccycles' site, were there standard colours for a '78 C56 model, or could you order in any colour?


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## juvela (Jun 28, 2018)

dnc1 said:


> Thanks again to @juvela, @bulldog1935, @MauriceMoss and @bertinjim.
> Sterling work one and all.
> I think I will go down the French route re. components, as @juvela said the range of possibilities is greater, and slightly less costly! Lol.
> I will need to repaint I think. I've noticed that their are many different paint colours on the 'bertinclassiccycles' site, were there standard colours for a '78 C56 model, or could you order in any colour?




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Howdy Darren,

Vintage velo expert Wolfram Verktyg who worked at a San Francisco bicycle importer-distributor during the nineteen seventies reports that they could order the Bertin bicycles any way they wanted them.  Evidently it was not a "take it or leave it" situation as to how the models were built & kitted.

I would think this information gives you plenty of leeway regarding livery and build....  

One example of a french theme build I thought of would be to go SPECTA as the company offered chainsets, pedals, headsets & accessories.  Heck, that is _almost_ a group.  It could be completed with something such as Perrin 2000 (Pelissier) hubs, Routens saddle pillar and Philippe adjustable track stem.  Just one possible idea of many...  

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## dnc1 (Jun 28, 2018)

Thanks @juvela, I wish I could go back to the Saumur cyclejumble last weekend. I’m certain I could have purchased everything you've mentioned their and then.
I may well go for a custom paint option, I do like a colourful machine.
I'll look into into the SPECTA equipment, not a marque I'm familiar with.


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## juvela (Jun 28, 2018)

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SPECTA is trade shorthand for Specialtes T.A.   It is employed in distributor price lists, brochures and other trade materials.  Apologies for the obscure language!

If you should be fond of the five arm 144BCD pattern chainsets one you might consider is the Tevano.  IIRC the Tevano marque launched in ~'lxxviii.  The first advert shown below was published June 1978. The logo is a feather. Quite beautiful and offered in two finishes: either polished or anodised.  (_produit de T.A.)




 

 

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## bulldog1935 (Jun 28, 2018)

the basic 144mm bcd Super Record crank was cloned in exactness (except for the marque) by everybody, Tevano, Gipemme, Miche, Sugino.
My Sugino Mighty Comp from 1978 now on my daughter's Fuji


  .
If you're a big guy and you stand on your crank, the Super Record clones are indestructible.  


here's a TA set up as single  
People have been known to warp their chainrings under torque.  



TA even has a new batch of crank arms



outer rings are 50.4mm bcd to grab the TA crank arms on the "inner" bolt circle.
you can buy these chainrings new from Spa Cycles, SJS - many hometown suppliers for you.
also Roba in Germany  https://www.roba-bikeparts.com/shop/Chainrings---3.html

same suppliers will have new TA-made 144 bcd chainrings for the Super Record clone cranks.

Here's the TA spindle width chart


 .
here's one of my TA triples, runing 121mm BB with 4mm offset. (these are Sun XCD TA-clone crank arms with TA chainrings)


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## dnc1 (Jun 29, 2018)

Thanks again @juvela and @bulldog1935.
I'm familiar with TA.
Will have to start searching now, but with 3 other projects on the go also it may be a little way down the line before you get to see the finished article.
I also almost purchased a '60s Bernard Carré built piste frame while in Saumur, I have contact details if anyone is interested?


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## bulldog1935 (Jun 29, 2018)

you really can't beat the 144 bcd Super Record clone for this application. 
Smallest ring that will fit is 41T, and you can find them in virtually any number to 54T. 
Check SJS and Spa, and many new old stock rings on ebay.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/144-bcd-5-arm/?geoc=US


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## juvela (Jun 29, 2018)

dnc1 said:


> Thanks again @juvela and @bulldog1935.
> I'm familiar with TA.
> Will have to start searching now, but with 3 other projects on the go also it may be a little way down the line before you get to see the finished article.
> I also almost purchased a '60s Bernard Carré built piste frame while in Saumur, I have contact details if anyone is interested?




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wrt the Bernard piste am sure that Lynn Travers of Missouri would love to see it, if he has not done so already.  Very keen on Sauvage-Lejeune and Bernard in particular he is.  He retains six or so pieces of Bernard's work and always keeps an eye out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/cv-6enterprises/

here is a discussion on his current project:

http://m.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=1147426&highlight=bare

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Ron -

wrt to fishing tackle -

when was growing up me Pa's brother was a sporting goods sales rep.  two of the lines he handled were Harnell rods and Zebco reels so these were part of the family's sportfishing gear.  this was in the fifties and early sixties of the past century.

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## bulldog1935 (Jun 29, 2018)

juvela said:


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> Ron -
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you must be pacific coast to handle Harnell.  I'm currently trying to get my hands back on an 8' Harnell I sold 10 year ago - want to take it to the salt flats with a Valentine planetary reel



 
Harnell carved his handles from solid-block cork, instead of using cork rings


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## juvela (Jun 29, 2018)

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wrt "pacific coast" - that makes sense.

me Pa and his brother were born in Colorado and spent their entire adult lives in California.

what does one fish for on the "salt flats"?  

when hear that term think of Mr. Craig Breedlove.

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## bulldog1935 (Jun 29, 2018)

redfish, speckled (sea)trout, black drum, flounder, snook - the first 3 are all members of the croaker and drum family, _scienids_, as are the greatest number of inshore species. 
At the jetties and passes catch mackerel, jacks and even tarpon.  
The Texas coast is lined with barrier islands, and there are 15,000 sq-mi less than 2' deep. 
I'm going to send you a couple of pm and catch you up on a fishing conversation I've been having with Sven.


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## juvela (Jun 29, 2018)

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Minutiae pour Monsieur Darren,

ALGI catalogue page of 1955 and modern ALGI allen key binder bolts -



 

 

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## dnc1 (Jul 10, 2018)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> wrt the Bernard piste am sure that Lynn Travers of Missouri would love to see it, if he has not done so already.  Very keen on Sauvage-Lejeune and Bernard in particular he is.  He retains six or so pieces of Bernard's work and always keeps an eye out.
> 
> ...



It was indeed a Sauvage-Lejeune.


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## juvela (Jul 10, 2018)

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The Sauvage badge ends ~1968-69.

Later products marked as Lejeune or else contract builds.

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## dnc1 (Jun 30, 2019)

Here's the 'Bertin' as ridden yesterday, with bits borrowed from my 'Romani' bici da pista.....








It's a nice ride!


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## corbettclassics (Jun 30, 2019)

juvela said:


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> 
> Hello again Darren,
> 
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I guess they must have had this Type of numbering system from the early beginnings as well but slightly different.

Here's my early Bertin Track with the stampings on the left rear dropout.   I bought it off the original owner and he said he bought it new in 1954 but I wrote down '52 on the envelope he gave me with the original decals he purchased for it. He probably told me '52 but I thought I remember '54 - either way a very early Bertin Track with Nervex Pro lug set. I need to get going on this restoration as its been sitting here amongst all my other track stuff for 32 years now!


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## dnc1 (Jun 30, 2019)

corbettclassics said:


> I guess they must have had this Type of numbering system from the early beginnings as well but slightly different.
> 
> Here's my early Bertin Track with the stampings on the left rear dropout.   I bought it off the original owner and he said he bought it new in 1954 but I wrote down '52 on the envelope he gave me with the original decals he purchased for it. He probably told me '52 but I thought I remember '54 - either way a very early Bertin Track with Nervex Pro lug set. I need to get going on this restoration as its been sitting here amongst all my other track stuff for 32 years now!
> 
> ...



Very nice Bill!
Look forward to seeing it some day.


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## juvela (Jun 30, 2019)

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Andy also did a good deal of contract work for Urago.

Curious, as the two makers were in the far opposite corners of France Metropolitaine.

Perhaps they were acquainted from their respective racing days.

Have an Urago road frameset from 1960 with the Bertin pattern serial arrangement on the left dropout.

Also exhibits the Bertin seat stay treatment.

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## corbettclassics (Jul 1, 2019)

dnc1 said:


> Very nice Bill!
> Look forward to seeing it some day.




Here's a couple quick shots of it how it sits now.  It was originally black paint with chrome lugs, half lower fork chrome ( chrome fork crown ) and half seat and chain stay chrome.  I did a light paint over the original and made my own decals.  I'm going to lightly strip this down to the original chrome and paint to see what it looks like because it's been over 30 yrs since I last saw it in its original form.  I remember the chrome was starting to flake off on the lower head nervex lug and that's why I painted it to give it my own look.  It will be back to correct period form when I finish though.  I also got a set of period correct Prior high flange hubs for it and Stronglight #55 track cranks.  I'm starting to get excited about this one.  This being the very early 1950's and really nothing to go on for an original track bike, I'm hoping the decals are all correct.  The main "_ABertin" _decal is the match to the original.


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## dnc1 (Jul 1, 2019)

corbettclassics said:


> Here's a couple quick shots of it how it sits now.  It was originally black paint with chrome lugs, half lower fork chrome ( chrome fork crown ) and half seat and chain stay chrome.  I did a light paint over the original and made my own decals.  I'm going to lightly strip this down to the original chrome and paint to see what it looks like because it's been over 30 yrs since I last saw it in its original form.  I remember the chrome was starting to flake off on the lower head nervex lug and that's why I painted it to give it my own look.  It will be back to correct period form when I finish though.  I also got a set of period correct Prior high flange hubs for it and Stronglight #55 track cranks.  I'm starting to get excited about this one.  This being the very early 1950's and really nothing to go on for an original track bike, I'm hoping the decals are all correct.  The main "_ABertin" _decal is the match to the original.
> 
> View attachment 1024024 View attachment 1024025
> 
> ...



Sounds (and looks) like the makings of a very fine machine. I'm sure you'll more than do it justice!


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## dnc1 (Jul 1, 2019)

juvela said:


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> 
> Andy also did a good deal of contract work for Urago.
> 
> ...



Interesting stuff @juvela, but no picture is visible to me?


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## juvela (Jul 1, 2019)

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dnc1 -

appears a wee dram o' creativitude were required for the fitment o' that anterior arrestor caliper

can ye tell us anent it?

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no peechas o' me Andy built Urago as doona ha' capacity to make daguerreotipicos o' the digital sort

thar be however a discussion, with imagery,  of a frame nearly identical to mine here -

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1037858-please-help-me-identify-mystery-frame.html 

my example in livery originale: faded purple flambouyant with silver lining

[all peechas posted by me are somebody else's]

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corbettclassics -

luv seeing those Priors

as most readers prolly know, this badge is one belonging to Etablissements Perrin

have some small flange fellows on a '57 Urago

does the marking on the barrel show the plume/quill?

since you will be building wheels...hast thee considered going _bois?_

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## corbettclassics (Jul 2, 2019)

juvela said:


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> dnc1 -
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I will not be using wood rims ( _bois_ ) to build up the wheels.  The rims are early alloy French rims called "Limone".


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## dnc1 (Jul 2, 2019)

corbettclassics said:


> Here's a couple quick shots of it how it sits now.  It was originally black paint with chrome lugs, half lower fork chrome ( chrome fork crown ) and half seat and chain stay chrome.  I did a light paint over the original and made my own decals.  I'm going to lightly strip this down to the original chrome and paint to see what it looks like because it's been over 30 yrs since I last saw it in its original form.  I remember the chrome was starting to flake off on the lower head nervex lug and that's why I painted it to give it my own look.  It will be back to correct period form when I finish though.  I also got a set of period correct Prior high flange hubs for it and Stronglight #55 track cranks.  I'm starting to get excited about this one.  This being the very early 1950's and really nothing to go on for an original track bike, I'm hoping the decals are all correct.  The main "_ABertin" _decal is the match to the original.
> 
> View attachment 1024024 View attachment 1024025
> 
> ...



Those hubs are stunning!


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## dnc1 (Jul 2, 2019)

juvela said:


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> dnc1 -
> 
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The brake is a Dia-Compe set with special clamp-on fixings for undrilled track forks; available with clamps to fit round and oval fork blades. 
Available as a complete kit including lever and cable, or as a caliper and clamps.
I purchased mine from tracksupermarket.com in Japan. They may be available in the U.S.
They also do a rear brake that mounts under the chainstays near the BB.
They also sometimes stock a beautifully made upside down  mini quill-stem bracket that fits up inside the fork crown/steerer tube that allows the fitment of any brake caliper for the front wheel. 
Stylish and beautifully made, yes, expensive, yes.
It would look lovely with a Campy delta or an '80's aero Shimano I think!


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