# 1981 Suburban with original wheels and FFS feels like riding in deep sand -- is there a solution?



## janeiac (Mar 28, 2022)

My LBS (the former home of Schwinn guru Sheldon Brown) explained to me that the issue is the shape of the wheels is such that modern tires can't properly grip, so they must be underinflated or they blow off. Can confirm: I unthinkingly tried to go to the tire rating of 100 PSI and the tube exploded off the wheel. My old bike that got stolen took tires that inflated to 110 front/90 rear and a absolutely LOVED riding it. It felt like I was gliding, with very little rolling resistance. I want to love this bike but I kinda hate riding it because of the mushy tires. Is there anything I can do besides get another bike? Changing out the wheels is not an option -- the FFS means that a whole bunch of other stuff would also have to be changed out and that is not worth doing in terms of expense, plus I want to keep it original. Feeling like riding on the beach all the time on a 50-pound bike is not fun. I have it tricked out with baskets and fenders for city riding so I can use it for groceries and such, which is how I intend to use it. The weight is not my problem-- it's the soft tires. Any advice?


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## J-wagon (Mar 28, 2022)

If you have Schwinn suburban tires 27" iso 630, are available online. 
@Arnold Ziffel


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Mar 28, 2022)

what is FFS? what rims do you have now? 100 PSI, must be a lightweight of some kind

"...the shape of the wheels is such that modern tires can't properly grip, so they must be underinflated or they blow off."

find a different "LBS".  a competent person would know there are Schwinn size tires available for the vintage rims and would not sell you tires he knew wuld not work.. most will say right on the side "fits Schwinn straight side rims" or something to that effect.


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Mar 28, 2022)

you can still find used original tires for your 1981 Schwinn. that's what I do.

... whatever FFS is it would not keep you from putting modern hoops on the old hubs. save weight, modern high pressure tires.. win win


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## bikemonkey (Mar 28, 2022)

Kenda 27 x 1 1/4" gumwall tires are your best option IMO for Suburbans and I have mounted a number in various LBS over the years.  If seated properly they will give you a good ride and should take 75 lbs. Suburbans ride like "dreamboats" and they are the Cadillac of that time period.

I like to find them without the FFS (Front Freewheeling System) but if the color is HTF then that doesn't bother me as long as the Positron cable is not frozen.

Here is one I cleaned up in Flamingo color with the FFS.


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## bloo (Mar 28, 2022)

janeiac said:


> My LBS (the former home of Schwinn guru Sheldon Brown) explained to me that the issue is the shape of the wheels is such that modern tires can't properly grip, so they must be underinflated or they blow off.




We need to know exactly what rims you have, and what size tires. A picture of any marking on the rim would help. On some of the proprietary Schwinn sizes "modern" isn't really an option, and tire choices are extremely limited.

If these are Schwinn S-something-or-other rims, they are probably not hooked bead. With no hooked bead you probably need wire bead tires, those are the ones that don't fold.


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## janeiac (Mar 28, 2022)

FFS is front freewheel system (lets you change gears without peddling and stops jams) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_freewheel
No. It is not feasible to change just the wheels.

My OTHER bike (Nishiki Olympic 12 now gone, stolen) was lightweight, yes, compared to the Schwinn especially.  But the main thing is it let me fill up the tires super hard --- and it was made the same year as my Suburban (1981). There may be some other things that made it feel different --ideas?

The bike shop is (was-- they closed due to owner retirement) perfectly competent. 75 PSI is underinflated for those Kenda tires and feels like mush. Love your Suburban, bikemonkey (showoff! hahah) I would have liked to find one in that color.


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## janeiac (Mar 28, 2022)

bloo said:


> We need to know exactly what rims you have, and what size tires. A picture of any marking on the rim would help. On some of the proprietary Schwinn sizes "modern" isn't really an option, and tire choices are extremely limited.
> 
> If these are Schwinn S-something-or-other rims, they are probably not hooked bead. With no hooked bead you probably need wire bead tires, those are the ones that don't fold.



Yes, they are original Schwinn s-6, and yes, that's the issue-- no hooked bead. It's not a problem finding a tire that fits but it's advised to underinflate them due to the straight shape as described here http://greenephantom.com/schwinn_faq . Which is what my LBS also said.

So, I am wondering if there is any solution--- maybe a new, different tire has become available?


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## bloo (Mar 28, 2022)

Are you using wire bead tires? If not, that might be something to try. If it were mine, I would also be trying to get the original rims to work. Otherwise you are probably looking at different rims. I know you said that wasn't in the cards but it is possible. 700c is probably the size to use. 

I would just lace up your old hubs to new rims, as changing whole wheels introduces a bunch more questions, like over locknut distance, and also no cassette hubs are possible, only threaded rear hubs will accept your FFS rear cogs. 

With 700c, the rims would be 8mm smaller, so your brake shoes would have to move down 4mm. If you have enough slot left to move the brake shoes down 4mm nothing would need to be done to the brakes.

Good luck whatever you do.


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## GTs58 (Mar 28, 2022)

Here's Schwinn's recommend pressure. And using an "accurate" pressure gauge is must.


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## janeiac (Mar 28, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> Here's Schwinn's recommend pressure.



...for Schwinn's tires that are no longer made.


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## janeiac (Mar 28, 2022)

bloo said:


> as changing whole wheels introduces a bunch more questions, ...



Yep--- can of worms


bloo said:


> no cassette hubs are possible,






bloo said:


> With 700c, the rims would be 8mm smaller, so your brake shoes would have to move down



along with a bunch of other issues. So, taken all together, not a practical solution. Not sure exactly what tires are on there... I'll go check in a bit. Thanks for the well wishes


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Mar 28, 2022)

"No. It is not feasible to change just the wheels."

40 PSI it is then.


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## GTs58 (Mar 28, 2022)

I'd like to know what tires you're riding on now.

I'm no tire expert but I've had my share of experiences with cheap lightweight tires. For an inexpensive 27 x 1 1/4 tire I like and use the CST Super HP's. Gum wall Kendas are so far down on my list they don't even show up on the list. They are pure junk and so are Kenda tubes. But they are Cheap $ Cheap! That's why everyone buys them. I put a set of Kenda gums with kenda tubes on my 61 Conti and had one heck of a time with just the cheap tubes. I usually inflate the new tubes with 5-10 psi to check for leaks and to get the folds and wrinkles out before I install them. When doing these Kenda tubes I was amazed at how big the circumference was with 5 psi. I could put that tube on a 36" rim and it still wouldn't form fit around the rim. The Schwinn tubes that were on the bike fit the rim like a tire. There is no sidewall support on these gummy wall tires but they do look nice before they start to deteriorate some months later. From your ride description, your bike most likely has gums on it with just the cheap tubes giving you any sidewall support.


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## J-wagon (Mar 28, 2022)

janeiac said:


> I have it tricked out with baskets and fenders for city riding so I can use it for groceries and such, which is how I intend to use it. The weight is not my problem-- it's the soft tires. Any advice?



Well, it's gonna be a grocery bike. My bike schwinn cruiser double rear baskets, front basket. Topped off with water food load. Roll along, no hands, 30 psi tires pretty good. Not zippy. 

My suggestion, enjoy your fully equipped grocery bike! I'm pluggin along on this.


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## Schwinny (Mar 29, 2022)

Schwinn 27" rims are 630 ISO. Araya, Weinmann, S6.... 630
I've used plenty of 630/32 ISO Kendas at 85 psi with no issues. Its a rolling resistance vs. cushion scenario and 85 psi is a good balance for folks under 200lbs or so.
Good step up is a Schwalbe sport style with green guard. Nice tires and no flats.
No real need to have 100 psi tires on a Suburban unless that's just your thing. As 630 ISO is a defunct size, the ones made now are very limited in high pressure models.


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## Arnold Ziffel (Mar 29, 2022)

The old straight side hookless steel rims such as what is on old 1970's/1960's ten speeds  will require a tire with a wire bead.
The tire pressure typically for riding is usually in the 65psi to 75psi  depending on the specific tire.

If you're hellbound to want near 100psi tire pressure on something with old style wheels,  bad things are gonna happen.
You're gonna possibly have the tire come off of the rim while riding at speed, probably while turning.

Wire bead means that literally a steel wire approximately the diameter of a typical  large paper clip's diameter.   The wire is covered with rubber and its structural  cloth like webbing.    The wire bead does not allow the tire to be twisted up and folded up like a pretzel.

FOR EXAMPLE: the very basic, cheapo but perfectly adequate k35 (Kenda 32-630 27 x 1 1/4) for an old heavy dept store 10 speed, or anything old weighing 30 pounds,  so most every seventies era 10 speed except beyond mid level and top of the line....so most all Raleighs, Peugeots, Fuji's, Panasonics,Motobecanes,PUCHs,Favorits,Sears Free Spirits,  everything you can imagine including low rent AMFs, and Murrays, Columbias, Ross, Huffys, ........... & Schwinns  ........plus about a hundred other name brands of seventies  era bike boom bikes had steel wheels of that particular design , utilized ordinary 'clincher' tires with ordinary wire bead.   My understanding if not wrong was that 'clincher' was once used to describe normal tire configuration versus 'tubular' which referred to sew-up type on racing bikes.      That descriptive terminology is obsolete now as sew-ups haven't been in practical use in nearly fifty years.









						The Bikesmiths
					

=Each kit will contain: (2) tires, (2) tubes (2) rubber rim strips *If you want to replace the tires on both wheels you need just 1 Kit. Choose from: Gumwall or Blackwall with Presta or Schrader Valve tubes Size: 27x1-1/4" Tire Bead: Wire Width: 32mm ISO 630 2x 27" Schrader or Presta Valve Tubes...




					www.thebikesmiths.com
				




The example above is the very basic, cheapo Kenda k35, which is essentially like  something basic from 1967 to 1973 in terms of quality of tread design and overall tire weight.       It follows the it was simple and functional enough 50 years ago, so don't change anything and keep the cost low.   These tires ride best on heavier old bikes and are fairly comfortable for what they are. You'd want a more performance 27 (630mm) tire if you are riding something vintage and want to go fast.   You can find lighter and faster tires but such a choice of quality tire isn't gonna matter much at all on any slow bike anyway.   
Bikesmiths has them currently on sale for Two Tires & Two schrader(normal valve) tubes in blackwall for 27.50 and gumwall version for 30.50.    You can also get them with presta valve innertubes if you like those european valves, for a little more cost.
Now in that bikesmiths link,  the technical details on the k35 tire (32-630) indicate that the maximum pressure for that particular is 90psi.     Obviously, on  something with vintage type straight side rims,  you would Not want to run the tire at the manufacturer's maximum tire pressure.

There are several different manufacturers that make tire that looks exactly like what that k35 looks like.   It is a very old but dependable and durable design that  all the chinese and taiwanese manufacturers including Kenda have copied & replicated.
Ching Shen, CST, Duro and other tire manufacturers make something virtually exactly like these.   I don't have a clue as to who originally designed this style tire tread pattern etc,  but it has been copied for at least 50 years.    
I have these Kenda k35  27 x 1 1/4 (32-630mm) tires on my campus green 21" frame step-through Jan '72 Suburban 5 speed.
I ride this bike a lot of miles.  Tires have been on this Suburban since 2017.
I'll be riding it again tomorrow for more than a 25 mile ride in the afternoon, doing six mile laps on the roads within beautiful scenic Saluda Shoals Park.    I've ridden this one over 200 miles there in about seven  ride visits to the park in the past two months.   Sometimes, I ride one of my other 5 speed Schwinns there.  I have a small collection of 1970 -1976 Collegiate & Suburban Five Speeds that I ride alot.     I rode that Green Suburban about 1350 miles during calendar year 2021, and also more than 1200 on the yellow Collegiate in 2021.     Initially, I planned to get at least 1000 miles on each of the Green and Yellow bikes and at least a couple hundred miles on all the other bikes during 2021.  Well,  that  was  done early enough, because of mostly favorable weather, so I thought I would get 1500 miles on each of them during calendar year 2021,  but  I was occupied with other activities between Oct and the end of the year,  and weather and daylight wasn't as cooperative on days when I could ride.
I got slack.        Anyway that k35 (32-630) is a decent enough basic cheapo inexpensive tire  that rides comfortably.  I have Michelin Protek (32-630) tires on my Brown '71 Suburban  without fenders.    The cheapo Kenda k35 (32-630) rides softer (more comfortable) than the Michelin Protek.    The Michelin's tread is so thick and the circumference is larger due to thick rubber(thus taller and poses clearance issues if you run a Suburban with fenders).    The Michelin tire is among the widest 32mm tread width tires available today........most everybody else that says 32-630  actually is maybe slightly less, perhaps 30mm width,  some expensive sporty 27 inch tires are even closer to 28mm width  when the tire states it is 32-630.

You'll find numerous old threads on various bike forums  that  cover the topic on what psi for tire pressure on vintage bikes.
You'll also find more than a dozen quality 27 inch tires with wire bead that you can choose from.   Historically, Panasonic's Panasport  / Panasellas  whatever it goes by is among the best you can get for performance & overall  quality / value.
Other than that,  read comments on the user/purchaser reviews of the various 27 inch (630mm) tires with a wire bead.
All of them,  even the cheapos like the K-35,  and  Duros and ChingShings are decent enough and ride nice.   The more punctureproof tires like the Protek,  have a modern high tech tread design, but the tire is super heavy and thus has no advantage other than puncture protection and a reflective sidewall,  and  superiority in the rain,  but unless you're riding in the rain/wet and where flats are more likely,  they don't ride as nice as the cheapo K-35 in my opinion.   The Protek's ride is slightly more firm, and that ancient design copied by Kenda and others  is more cushioned.    k-35 is a good cheapo basic tire if you don't want to ride fast.


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## fattyre (Mar 29, 2022)

How about spoke tension?  Have you checked that?  Maybe it’s low.  Bikes that feel slow often have bad spoke tension.    And even if your tension is good, a wheel with randomly seized or bound up nipples can affect the way a wheel flex’s under load.    On these 40 year old bikes it’s not a bad idea at all to zero the tension and make sure everything moves freely then start fresh with your tensioning.

My opinion is cad plated steel spokes are junk.  A sign of days gone by. They have much lower  overall tension capability and are soft & stretchy.

Stainless all the way.   A properly built set of S-6’s and well adjusted hubs with quality tires and you’ll fly.

  I had a 74 Suburban where I really took the time and spent some good money on the wheels and it showed.  That bike hauled.


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## Vicious Cycle (Apr 8, 2022)

> For an inexpensive 27 x 1 1/4 tire I like and use the CST Super HP's



I agree with GTs58, I have used the 27x1-1/4"  Gumwall  CST Super HP on Varcity's, Suburban's, Continentals and Sierra's for years, They are close in look to the original Schwinn tires of the 60's and 70's. They are rated at 90psi . I put in 75-85 psi depending on the rider and I have never had one come off the rim although they can be tricky to get seated to start with. For the price and quality nothing is close, IMHO


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## SLM (Apr 14, 2022)

janeiac said:


> My LBS (the former home of Schwinn guru Sheldon Brown) explained to me that the issue is the shape of the wheels is such that modern tires can't properly grip, so they must be underinflated or they blow off. Can confirm: I unthinkingly tried to go to the tire rating of 100 PSI and the tube exploded off the wheel. My old bike that got stolen took tires that inflated to 110 front/90 rear and a absolutely LOVED riding it. It felt like I was gliding, with very little rolling resistance. I want to love this bike but I kinda hate riding it because of the mushy tires. Is there anything I can do besides get another bike? Changing out the wheels is not an option -- the FFS means that a whole bunch of other stuff would also have to be changed out and that is not worth doing in terms of expense, plus I want to keep it original. Feeling like riding on the beach all the time on a 50-pound bike is not fun. I have it tricked out with baskets and fenders for city riding so I can use it for groceries and such, which is how I intend to use it. The weight is not my problem-- it's the soft tires. Any advice?



I have a couple of (5) Suburbans , they are the best riding bikes and it's fun to ride a ladies bike that is fast.   I have used Duro tires (Amazon) on my Suburbans and I jack the tire pressure to 100 psi so I can ride with the ladies on there new gravel bikes.   I also have a Ladies Paramount that I put Panaracers on they are also 27 1-1/4" and those tires came from online bike store.  They are lighter wieght for better rolling resistance and can take lots of pressure.
Sandy


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## Schwinny (Apr 14, 2022)

I recently found a cache of MSW thunder road tires in 630 ISO. A standard road tread, not racing.
Tan wall and 120 psi max on the sidewall.
I don't know anything about them other than Taiwan made, but  going to swap out a set on my old speedster and see the difference between  85 psi tires and 120.


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## SLM (May 13, 2022)

Did you fix your Suburban yet ?


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