# SCHWINN BLACK PHANTOM:NEED EXPERT ASSISTANCE



## FlyingHigh (Jan 16, 2021)

Hi Cabers,

I just purchased a Schwinn Black Phantom and I am confused. It was sold as a 1955, but I know that even if the frame is a 1955, it has a ton of repop parts on it. I have owned an authentic 1995 100th Anniversary Black Phantom. It reminds of the 1995 in the following ways: The paint and most of the parts except the wheels, tires, and the springer forks set-up. The wheels look like old S-2s as the rear hub is a New Departure D with the oil  filler set-up; both wheels are stamped.  The tires are old Carlisles. The forks are non-locking, which I thought all of the the repop bikes had locking forks. I see inconsistencies with the striping on the frame which makes me question if the frame has been repainted. The paint looks almost too perfect to have  been repainted. The rear frame is missing the bracket that attaches the front of the repop 4 hole rack. Here is where it gets really confusing. It does not have the serial number or anniversary stamping on the bottom bracket. I know the bottom bracket seam is suppose to be perfect, but this one is not. I thought that could mean that it's a frame used for the repop Crusier Classic, but the cruiser classic has a different paint scheme and different headlight, sprocket, fenders, etc. The bike does have a 1955 Serial number on the drop out like 55s do. It also has the repop style gold new patent sticker at the bottom of the seat/down tube. I can pretty much tell that the fenders, seat, etc are all repop.  The last pic is an example of a correct 1995 bracket.  Any thoughts?


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## Nashman (Jan 16, 2021)

I'm far from an expert on anything ( OK, beer drinking I'm almost an expert...dropping roses/air biscuits...yeah?), but I see what you see in repro parts.  That's the danger of buying bikes that have been re-popped. Lots of people will cobble together parts on an original frame (or not) and pass it off as an original bike.

I mean lets face it, many or our "original" bikes have been messed with from factory with add ons, upgrades, repaints, chrome, etc. but if a buyer is knowledgeable he/she can ( especially if looking in person) assess the unit and determine the authentic state for their comfort. Because I live 1000's of miles up north in an igloo, I have to buy on line at times and am somewhat at the mercy of pictures and description. Sometimes good, sometimes not. I hope you didn't get burned.

Please step in experts. Oh yeah, I'm a professional eater too. If you want to learn how to pack away food, just ask me.


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 16, 2021)

Nashman said:


> I'm far from an expert on anything ( OK, beer drinking I'm almost an expert...dropping roses/air biscuits...yeah?), but I see what you see in repro parts.  That's the danger of buying bikes that have been re-popped. Lots of people will cobble together parts on an original frame (or not) and pass it off as an original bike.
> 
> I mean lets face it, many or our "original" bikes have been messed with from factory with add ons, upgrades, repaints, chrome, etc. but if a buyer is knowledgeable he/she can ( especially if looking in person) assess the unit and determine the authentic state for their comfort. Because I live 1000's of miles up north in an igloo, I have to buy on line at times and am somewhat at the mercy of pictures and description. Sometimes good, sometimes not. I hope you didn't get burned.
> 
> Please step in experts. Oh yeah, I'm a professional eater too. If you want to learn how to pack away food, just ask me.



LOL.....Thanks alot Mad Mike! I didn't pay enough to be too concerned. Either way, I think it was a good deal. They did a good job on the repop. The dealers paid 1600 for those in 1995. Take Care.


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## bobcycles (Jan 16, 2021)

Could be a restored 1955 mfg bike then loaded up with the repop parts...defintely a repainted/restored frame and fork? Pivot goes right through
the fork leg correct? Not off-set like the early locking forks?
I'm guessing a typical cut ever corner with repop 95 crap restoration of maybe an original then restored frame and fork...
Serial # would be on the rear drop out...have a look see there.
Friends don't let friends buy repop!


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## Superman1984 (Jan 16, 2021)

No bike Expert but the whole thing looks like a repop. Guess that is what "restored" to new means. Good thing they Never repopped Monarks


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 16, 2021)

bobcycles said:


> Could be a restored 1955 mfg bike then loaded up with the repop parts...defintely a repainted/restored frame and fork? Pivot goes right through
> the fork leg correct? Not off-set like the early locking forks?
> I'm guessing a typical cut ever corner with repop 95 crap restoration of maybe an original then restored frame and fork...
> Serial # would be on the rear drop out...have a look see there.
> Friends don't let friends buy repop!



Thanks for the reply! Yes, the serial number is on the right if youre facing the bike.


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 16, 2021)

FlyingHigh said:


> Thanks for the reply! Yes, the serial number is on the right if youre facing the bike. The bolt actually goes behind the fork.


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## GTs58 (Jan 16, 2021)

That has been repainted. It's either a restored 55 Phantom using lots of reproduction parts or an original frame and built up as a Phantom. Either way, it's a really nice looking ride.


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## Nashman (Jan 16, 2021)

FlyingHigh said:


> LOL.....Thanks alot Mad Mike! I didn't pay enough to be too concerned. Either way, I think it was a good deal. They did a good job on the repop. The dealers paid 1600 for those in 1995. Take Care.



I'm Nashman in case there is any doubt on my response or if anyone wants my pizza recipe or tips on how to gain weight, fart, drink beer without guilt, etc. Nashman, not Mad Mike, but he may have tips as well?


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 16, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> That has been repainted. It's either a restored 55 Phantom using lots of reproduction parts or an original frame and built up as a Phantom. Either way, it's a really nice looking ride.



Thank you! I really appreciate the information!


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 16, 2021)

Nashman said:


> I'm Nashman in case there is any doubt on my response or if anyone wants my pizza recipe or tips on how to gain weight, fart, drink beer without guilt, etc. Nashman, not Mad Mike, but he may have tips as well?



Lol...Sorry about that, I'm still learning the system. I will keep all of that in mind!


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 16, 2021)

Superman1984 said:


> No bike Expert but the whole thing looks like a repop. Guess that is what "restored" to new means. Good thing they Never repopped Monarks



Thank you!


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## Jeff54 (Jan 17, 2021)

FlyingHigh said:


> Hi Cabers,
> 
> I just purchased a Schwinn Black Phantom and I am confused. It was sold as a 1955, but I know that even if the frame is a 1955, it has a ton of repop parts on it. I have owned an authentic 1995 100th Anniversary Black Phantom. It reminds of the 1995 in the following ways: The paint and most of the parts except the wheels, tires, and the springer forks set-up. The wheels look like old S-2s as the rear hub is a New Departure D with the oil  filler set-up; both wheels are stamped.  The tires are old Carlisles. The forks are non-locking, which I thought all of the the repop bikes had locking forks. I see inconsistencies with the striping on the frame which makes me question if the frame has been repainted. The paint looks almost too perfect to have  been repainted. The rear frame is missing the bracket that attaches the front of the repop 4 hole rack. Here is where it gets really confusing. It does not have the serial number or anniversary stamping on the bottom bracket. I know the bottom bracket seam is suppose to be perfect, but this one is not. I thought that could mean that it's a frame used for the repop Crusier Classic, but the cruiser classic has a different paint scheme and different headlight, sprocket, fenders, etc. The bike does have a 1955 Serial number on the drop out like 55s do. It also has the repop style gold new patent sticker at the bottom of the seat/down tube. I can pretty much tell that the fenders, seat, etc are all repop.  The last pic is an example of a correct 1995 bracket.  Any thoughts?View attachment 1340352View attachment 1340353View attachment 1340354View attachment 1340355View attachment 1340356View attachment 1340357View attachment 1340358



Yeah, your first clue is staring at you, you just didn't notice, yet. The cantilever bars, painted darts, squared off, are totally whack.


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 17, 2021)

I'm not sure what you mean. 


Jeff54 said:


> Yeah, your first clue is staring at you, you just didn't notice, yet. The cantilever bars, painted darts, squared off, are totally whack.


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## phantom (Jan 17, 2021)

In my opinion you have a pretty nice bike...Most likely a 55 frame with some original parts and some repop parts and new paint. All combined to make a nice rider. back in 1995/1996 I can't tell you how many 53/54/55 Phantom frames were completely stripped down and replaced with everything off a 95 Anniversary bike and guys were calling them a restored Phantom. In my opinion, no harm no foul, unless there is deception involved, which there often was. There is a reason why there are a boat load of 95 Phantoms being parted out on e bay right now....Simple, people want or need the stuff and they are usually worth more in parts than whole.


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## Superman1984 (Jan 17, 2021)

phantom said:


> In my opinion you have a pretty nice bike...Most likely a 55 frame with some original parts and some repop parts and new paint. All combined to make a nice rider. back in 1995/1996 I can't tell you how many 53/54/55 Phantom frames were completely stripped down and replaced with everything off a 95 Anniversary bike and guys were calling them a restored Phantom. In my opinion, no harm no foul, unless there is deception involved, which there often was. There is a reason why there are a boat load of 95 Phantoms being parted out on e bay right now....Simple, people want or need the stuff and they are usually worth more in parts than whole.



Yep yep. At least it's a Vintage frame and since restored you're going for that as new look anyways. Repop pieces or not you can always pick & choose if you want to faux patina it, actually patina it, and or make it nicer than some ever really was etc. I would Never call it Original or try to pass it off as such for selling but it's Nice if you're a Schwinn fan. Hopefully you didn't get had too bad on the price


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 17, 2021)

phantom said:


> In my opinion you have a pretty nice bike...Most likely a 55 frame with some original parts and some repop parts and new paint. All combined to make a nice rider. back in 1995/1996 I can't tell you how many 53/54/55 Phantom frames were completely stripped down and replaced with everything off a 95 Anniversary bike and guys were calling them a restored Phantom. In my opinion, no harm no foul, unless there is deception involved, which there often was. There is a reason why there are a boat load of 95 Phantoms being parted out on e bay right now....Simple, people want or need the stuff and they are usually worth more in parts than whole.



Thank you so much! Do you think the forks are 55?


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## phantom (Jan 17, 2021)

FlyingHigh said:


> Thank you so much! Do you think the forks are 55?



My guess would be the fork is original to the frame. The cycle lock fork was an option in 55 and yes, all the 95 Anniversary Phantoms had a locking fork.


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## GTs58 (Jan 17, 2021)

FlyingHigh said:


> Thank you so much! Do you think the forks are 55?



Actually it's a fork, singular. The 1955 models ushered in the new style fork legs with the pivot bolt going thru the fork leg. I've noted a few 55 models that had the older fork legs and I would have to think they were using up the older stock. The 55 models had the option for a locking fork at extra cost and those had the pivot bolt behind the fork leg. If your fork was off the Anniversary Phantom why would it be repainted? Looks like the hardware is not new so I'd have to say your fork is an original, but could have a few repop parts on it like the truss rods.


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 17, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> Actually it's a fork, singular. The 1955 models ushered in the new style fork legs with the pivot bolt going thru the fork leg. I've noted a few 55 models that had the older fork legs and I would have to think they were using up the older stock. The 55 models had the option for a locking fork at extra cost and those had the pivot bolt behind the fork leg. If your fork was off the Anniversary Phantom why would it be repainted? Looks like the hardware is not new so I'd have to say your fork is an original, but could have a few repop parts on it like the truss rods.



Thank you!


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jan 17, 2021)

Schurnn




I will never unsee that.


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## BFGforme (Jan 17, 2021)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> Schurnn
> 
> View attachment 1341200
> 
> I will never unsee that.



Me either.... lol


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## bobcycles (Jan 17, 2021)

Bottom line is price paid for that one....parts are quality reproduction...but they litter the earth in large qtys...
not a terrible paint job aside from some minor details....
easily 1000 + value bike there as is...and I would bet considerably more if parted out...(which is what I would do
if I owned it.....Nickname "95' Slayer".)
cheers!


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## FlyingHigh (Jan 18, 2021)

bobcycles said:


> Bottom line is price paid for that one....parts are quality reproduction...but they litter the earth in large qtys...
> not a terrible paint job aside from some minor details....
> easily 1000 + value bike there as is...and I would bet considerably more if parted out...(which is what I would do
> if I owned it.....Nickname "95' Slayer".)
> cheers!



Thank you sir, I really appreciate that information. I may keep it, but not sure.


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## lordscool (Sep 18, 2021)

FlyingHigh said:


> Thank you sir, I really appreciate that information. I may keep it, but not sure.



Sweet looking bike. Restored looks 100 times better than old beat up paint and rusted out parts. But to each their own. Remember if it's restored someone spent a lot of time and money to restore it to be a head turner like that. It may be original only once, but restored always looks better than a roached original.


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## Jeff54 (Sep 19, 2021)

FlyingHigh said:


> I'm not sure what you mean.



Boy, this is till going. And I must have gotten to busy, forgot to reply or just see too many as to what stands out so frequently. It's certainly a repainted bike, and there's nothing wrong with that except when somebody pulls a con job, claiming it's original. .

And It's a good looker too.

Yet, the darts on frame are not correct. Plus the easiest way and most frequent error made is the Chain guard. The pin stripes, where the angle down tips are; those were made with about 3/4" fine stripe  brush. The side of the brush makes a mark that's a little like a up-side down drip. It's oval at the top and thin at bottom.  Yours are a long thin triangle, it's not a brush mark.  Even the 95 repop Black Phantoms were carefully recreated with a brush that is exactly what was done in the factory.

The size of this mark can vary during the years made but the way it was done on the Phantoms and all of Schwinn's deluxe guards, any color, any model is the same.

It's not like it's this big secret yet the only ones I have ever seen to get it right is Bob, who commented in this thread. And as I have been making this point for years, I expect we should begin to see it proper.  Funny: the other day I saw repaint at ebay and the brush tip was up-side down.  🙃 😜. Defies my imagination that only one guy, Bob, after all these years peeps have been attempting it, one person paid attention.

Here's an genuine1960 Wasp. like I said, it may vary. Understanding, factories, you will find tons of variances when hand touched materials are part of production. This one is little small, a little fat, maybe a brush that's warn out or? But it's a factory made hand applied brush tip mark. And, the easiest to spot, most frequent error made in restorations, failure to use the brush sideways and it's not exactly a stripe rather, it's a mark.

Click this to blow it up, see the detail of the brush mark.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Sep 19, 2021)

Jeff54 said:


> Boy, this is till going. And I must have gotten to busy, forgot to reply or just see too many as to what stands out so frequently. It's certainly a repainted bike, and there's nothing wrong with that except when somebody pulls a con job, claiming it's original. .
> 
> And It's a good looker too.
> 
> ...



Better late then never, especially if that is thekind of  knowledge you drop upon arrival. Really awesome example, having worked with  all types of brushes big and small my whole  life it's easy to understand.


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## lordscool (Sep 19, 2021)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Better late then never, especially if that is thekind of  knowledge you drop upon arrival. Really awesome example, having worked with  all types of brushes big and small my whole  life it's easy to understand.



 What they used back in the day was nothing great for paint, and a fast assembly line that many were far from uniform. It's great to see those who look for the smallest details, but don't forget to just enjoy it. Even though this is a refurb bike, an impressive one at that. I would rather see someone's hard work to preserve or better something. Something they have to be proud of that they built, changing somethings adds flair to a restore and makes it an original to itself. Different is good I have seen many repop jobs far superior in appearance to an original. When you ride it people go wow look at that cool old bike, looks like brand new.  Reproduction parts make it so the normal person can fix up and enjoy a vintage bicycle. I agree someone selling should list the parts that have been replaced. Even parts that are originals but not to the bike. Honesty is the best policy, to many scammers. Many times there is way to much emphasis on the original thing, bikes are meant to have fun. Most of which aren't worth over 1500 anyway, which makes them affordable for most anyone. Bikes are for kids, some of us are just older kids now, lol


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## Superman1984 (Sep 19, 2021)

lordscool said:


> What they used back in the day was nothing great for paint, and a fast assembly line that many were far from uniform. It's great to see those who look for the smallest details, but don't forget to just enjoy it. Even though this is a refurb bike, an impressive one at that. I would rather see someone's hard work to preserve or better something. Something they have to be proud of that they built, changing somethings adds flair to a restore and makes it an original to itself. Different is good I have seen many repop jobs far superior in appearance to an original. When you ride it people go wow look at that cool old bike, looks like brand new.  Reproduction parts make it so the normal person can fix up and enjoy a vintage bicycle. I agree someone selling should list the parts that have been replaced. Even parts that are originals but not to the bike. Honesty is the best policy, to many scammers. Many times there is way to much emphasis on the original thing, bikes are meant to have fun. Most of which aren't worth over 1500 anyway, which makes them affordable for most anyone. Bikes are for kids, some of us are just older kids now, lol



I agree but you still have older kids who look at it like owning a rare Hot Wheels. The fewer they are of an original the more people want them and of course when you own them you can ask whatever you want BUT it's Only Worth what someone is willing to actually pay for it. I can't believe some of y'all are paying so much for bikes but who knows maybe someday I'll throw $500-BIG $$$ towards something bike wise that I just can't live without 🤷‍♂️


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## lordscool (Sep 19, 2021)

Original in nice condition is one thing, but totally roached original is another. Agree prices are getting crazy on this stuff. I used 1500 on a higher end bike reference.


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## Superman1984 (Sep 19, 2021)

lordscool said:


> Original in nice condition is one thing, but totally roached original is another. Agree prices are getting crazy on this stuff. I used 1500 on a higher end bike reference.



Just imagine none of these bikes were probably $100-150 New back in those Golden Days & here people are now paying $500-10,000 for them. I would say that is a Premium Mark up whether it's a higher end bike or not. I can't say I'll play on that level but If I could or would it'd be for something motored, rare & unique 😬


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## Freqman1 (Sep 19, 2021)

Superman1984 said:


> Just imagine none of these bikes were probably $100-150 New back in those Golden Days & here people are now paying $500-10,000 for them. I would say that is a Premium Mark up whether it's a higher end bike or not. I can't say I'll play on that level but If I could or would it'd be for something motored, rare & unique 😬



There are things I appreciate that I know I will never be able to afford. The market sets the price for the things we collect and fortunately there is a price level for just about every type of collector. I know of at least a few collectors, self included, who have some high end stuff and they are not wealthy. What they have done is work hard and set goals and priorities. V/r Shawn


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## Superman1984 (Sep 19, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> There are things I appreciate that I know I will never be able to afford. The market sets the price for the things we collect and fortunately there is a price level for just about every type of collector. I know of at least a few collectors, self included, who have some high end stuff and they are not wealthy. What they have done is work hard and set goals and priorities. V/r Shawn



I Fully understand that Now. I mean I can't say I have set goals & priorities for something specific but I did buy Jimbo53's bike👍🏻
Maybe that is a start ....


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## lordscool (Sep 20, 2021)

Superman1984 said:


> I Fully understand that Now. I mean I can't say I have set goals & priorities for something specific but I did buy Jimbo53's bike👍🏻
> Maybe that is a start ....



lol there is more to life than bicycles, lol not that bikes ain't cool.


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## tacochris (Sep 20, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> There are things I appreciate that I know I will never be able to afford. The market sets the price for the things we collect and fortunately there is a price level for just about every type of collector. I know of at least a few collectors, self included, who have some high end stuff and they are not wealthy. What they have done is work hard and set goals and priorities. V/r Shawn




I wanted to add something to this even if my opinion is just another mental dogpile on a fairly completed comment.  
I'm the prime example of one of those "not wealthy" people who shouldn't have the bikes I have.  I spent many years dreaming and drooling over bikes I could never afford but at the end of the day i never really TRIED to get off the beaten "market" path and try to get one and not just dream.  Now I hustle, wheel-n-deal and barter my way into bikes I never dreamed I would have the opportunity to own and its kinda like always keeping a ball in the air but it works if you're willing to do the foot work and the initial investment, its one hundred percent doable.   
Also, always keep a decent amount of "trade fodder" around because bike guys love a good barter....ha!


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## lordscool (Sep 21, 2021)

Well over 30+ years in bicycles and I'll still take the reasonable bicycles and fix them up, in the end still just a bicycle i will enjoy just as much or more because i built it., and can ride it. But my goals and priorities they bought a Goldwing.


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