# Can anyone help me figure out what this bike is?



## spook1s (Sep 28, 2010)

I got this bike awhile back and haven't been able to figure out much. I'm hoping the pics will help identify it's make/model?


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Sep 28, 2010)

I am thinking it is a prewar CWC made Hawthorne.  Phil will most likely be along soon to tell you the specifics, ie. when it was made, how it was equipped, the name of the son of the guy that put the handlebars on it - basic stuff like that = )


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## yeshoney (Sep 28, 2010)

What kind of WW tires are those?  it says made in Germany??  Take a few more pics of them and the tread pattern.

Thanks, Joe


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## RMS37 (Sep 28, 2010)

Early 40’s Montgomery Wards bikes have been descending on me like locust in the past week!  Not an entirely bad thing but it is time consuming to explain how to differentiate them, determine what year they are, and who produced them for MW.  I’ll take this as a sign that it is time to post something on the process and go from there. 

First of all, never assume that any bike is complete and original, To my mind the only part that is always “original” (not that it can’t be modified, witness the stylish piercings above and below the tank on this bike) is the frame.  This is the home of the serial number and hence the “Soul” of any bike (pardon me Patrick C, but the headbadge is just a piece of jewelry that can easily go missing after one too many trips to the bad side of town.)

Secondly, trust me that this bike is fairly original….

What we are missing is several photos that would clearly illustrate what I am talking about but I won’t let that stop me.

One of the reasons that Mongomery Ward bikes from this period are hard to pin down is that both Cleveland Welding and H. P. Snyder produced models that were very similar for MW and is some cases they shared ancillary parts. 

Back to the frame thing.  If we were all satisfied just calling the bikes Hawthornes and weren’t so determined to attribute them to CWC or Snyder then we could rest more easily.  In reality because of shared parts the fact that a Hawthorne is a CWC or Snyder built bike comes down to the frame. 

This bike has a Snyder frame and a CWC fork and in my mind, that makes it a Snyder bike.  The reason for the availability of Snyder bikes with CWC springers is not documented but the CWC Shockmaster was available as original fitment on some models and as an option on most MW models before the appearance of the Snyder Springer in the MW catalog.  From the bikes that have surfaced that appear to be original my observation is that CWC built Hawthornes always were equipped with CWC Shockmasters and Snyder built Hawthornes may have either CWC or Snyder springers.  I’m still awaiting a bike to disprove this conclusion.

Back to the frame: there are several differences between CWC and Snyder frames in general and in this case, we are looking at a Snyder frame that was specially built for MW to resemble a CWC design.  This style frame was not part of the larger Snyder production that was marketed by D.P. Harris so there is no Rollfast equivalent to this bike (an aside is that there may be!  While the frame is exclusive to MW so are the 4 and 5 bar bikes also produced by CWC and Snyder for MW and a couple of the Snyder built variants have turned up clearly marked as Rollfast!  Wonders never cease!)  

Ok, really back to the frame this time…  It is patterned after the popular CWC “Bent Tank” frame which originated in 1936 and was produced through 1942.  The differences between the CWC original and the Snyder Fauxmaster frame are: 

The upper rear fender bridge is arched on the Snyder frame, on CWC frames this is a straight tubular piece.

The tangs for the drop stand are shaped differently than CWC unit.  In comparison the Snyder tangs have a smoother transitional sweep on their lower edge.

The Crank hanger on the Snyder built frame has small lug like lips that the tubes are inserted into, CWC frames do not have these lugs.

All the prewar CWC frames use a heavy welded seat clamp at the top of the seat tube above the seat top tube juncture.  Some Snyder frames use a very similar clamp but others, such as this one, use a pinch bolt through the top of the rear stays that was never used by CWC.

The serial numbers will also be different for the two firms.  CWC followed a fairly clear definable pattern, Snyder used several patterns so I’ll note that they are different but I won’t write the two or three paragraphs that explain all that.

One thing I can’t tell in these photographs is if the fenders themselves are original or not or if they have been messed with at some time.  Another difference between the CWC and Snyder sourced bikes is the sheet metal that was hung on them.  CWC Hawthornes, in my experience, always have CWC sourced fenders and braces.  Both the fenders and the braces are completely different from the ones used on Snyder Hawthornes which in turn are somewhat different from the same parts used on other Snyder produced bikes.  It appears again that MW took a liking to the CWC gothic-ridged fenders and asked for the same on the Snyder models.  Snyder is known to have purchased much of their sheet metal from McCauley and it is likely that an order was placed for gothic fenders for the MW production bikes. Up close and personal you will notice that the fenders on Snyder bikes are thinner than CWC fenders, have differently shaped prows, and use differently shaped braces with different rivet spacing than CWC fenders.  At a distance one of the easiest ways to separate the CWC bikes from the Snyder bikes is that the front most brace on a CWC bike rises vertically from the front hub to its attachment point at the fender (with an arch on the curved brace models).  The front most brace on a Snyder bike leans into the wind at about a 20-degree angle.

In a rather large nutshell, that covers most of the things to look for to separate CWC built Hawthornes from Snyder built Hawthornes, at least as far as these post 1939, pre-war models go.  Some of these rules will work for earlier and later bikes but don’t quote me on that beyond the scope of this specific post!

Lastly I’ll note a couple of things about dating this bike. Several facts point to it being a Hawthorne in addition to being a Snyder as noted above.  As I said, never assume the Chainring is original to any frame you are trying to identify but in this case, again for all the above reasons, there is no reason to doubt that it is.  The pattern of this chainring, the “Throwing Star” or “Bent Star”, was introduced by MW to replace the earlier comet design in early 1940.  That places an earliest date on the bike. This style frame was not offered after WW2 so that places a latest date on the bike. Within that range the serial number may help date the bike more closely but Snyder numbers are not as easy to put a meaning to as CWC numbers.  The use of the CWC fork may mean it is toward the beginning of the period and the Snyder springer became more common on the later bikes but that is not definitive.


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## Strings-n-Spokes (Sep 28, 2010)

agh!!  The forward leaning front fender braces!!  I missed those.  Great information Phil!    The Coat Tail Posse rides again!!


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## Monark52 (Sep 28, 2010)

I can`t believe this guy Phil. He even knows that the rivet spaceing is different!!


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## bricycle (Sep 28, 2010)

Phil is the "Bicycle Guru"... amazing fella, with amazing info!


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## DonChristie (Sep 28, 2010)

ahem...i believe he is the Bicycle Jesus, sir!

Oh ya, amazing bike!


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## jedn2 (Sep 28, 2010)

Wow !!   Amazing !! Phill you are trully the Bicycle Guru !


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## Adamtinkerer (Sep 29, 2010)

Wow, that's a new twist! I didn't know Snyder made a frame that looks like CWC's! Fortunately, we have eagle-eye Phil on the job!


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## spook1s (Jan 23, 2011)

Here is a pic of the serial number from this bike..




Can this help in the identification any further?


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## spook1s (Feb 8, 2011)

I have looked at all items listed and this would seem to be a Snyder built bike. As pointed out by Phil. (Thank You Sir!)

I'm wondering if the pic of the serial number helps date it more precisely? 
I feel, from the information provided that this is an earlier example based on the frame and fork combo data from Phil's catalog and also the "bent star" chain ring description.

I am looking for several parts to complete this project... Correct head badge, pedals, drop stand, light, horn workings, maybe more? 

Can anyone tell me the correct parts to look for? Possible correct color schemes, etc...


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## spook1s (Feb 17, 2011)

Still wondering if the serial number can help any more in the identification/dating process??? Please help Phil! If you can...

I'm also wondering if you guys can show me pics of "correct" paint, period correct head badge, light... 

It would seem that this bike came equipped with a kick stand and not a rear drop stand due to the lack of the rear fender stand latch? Am I correct? I know Phil mentioned the fact that the fenders could have been swapped out at some point. Can anyone tell me what this bike came w/ originally?

I have found someone w/ a Wards Hawthorne head badge and I want to make sure it is the correct one. I would like to see examples of original correct badges on early 40's bikes if anyone can help me out.. I'm also curious to know if the badge was different between makers?  CWC? Snyder? or were the badges the same for both?


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