# 51 Phantom?



## Tanner Dotzauer (Aug 6, 2012)

Hello All!

I recently picked up an old Schwinn. According to its serial number H169081 which was located on the under side of the Bottom Bracket it is a 1951 and was built 03/27. The bike has had a rough life and has been sprayed red with rattle can paint and most of its goodies have been removed. After removing some of the bad paint I can see that it has the proper paint to be a black phantom as well as the right frame and cranks. Is there anyway to use the serial number to confirm that it is indeed a Black Phantom?

Thanks for any help


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## snickle (Aug 6, 2012)

Unfortunately, serial numbers did not indicate what model the bike was, just what year and month/week/day or whatever. The fact that you see original black phantom paint is a good sign, if you can see faint traces of han painted pin striping then thats a sure sign that it was a phantom. I too have a 1951 Black Phantom H frame. Try posting a picture or 2 when you get a chance.


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## MagicRat (Aug 6, 2012)

Hey Tan,MAKE it a Black Phantom even if it isnt.(my worthless opinion)

Nobody will know.

I'd like to have one.


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## MagicRat (Aug 6, 2012)

Oh Yeah...Welcome In


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## cyberpaull (Aug 6, 2012)

MagicRat said:


> Hey Tan,MAKE it a Black Phantom even if it isnt.(my worthless opinion)
> 
> Nobody will know.
> 
> I'd like to have one.




No offense MagicRat, but it's comments like this, that I would never buy a restored Phantom. Something about it being original is more important and also not confirming what it was before.


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## MagicRat (Aug 6, 2012)

That is a great story...^

But it is HIS BIKE to do what he wants to.

We are here to help.


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## oskisan (Aug 7, 2012)

depending on what the original paint color schemes are you may be able to tell if it were a phantom or B6... I am not sure what else schwinn made in 51 in a cantilever (wasp?), but those differ by the decorative painted designs on the bike. If you want to be a purist (and probably save a lot of money) start with a complete bike.. putting one together piece by piece has always driven me to the poor farm, but sure is fun! I imagine this bike must not have the fenders, but they should be chrome with a fenderlight built in and a tear dropped light cover.. 

The Black Phantom.. ahh yes, my first love!!




MagicRat said:


> That is a great story...^
> 
> But it is HIS BIKE to do what he wants to.
> 
> We are here to help.


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## bricycle (Aug 7, 2012)

Black Phantom would have a locking fork....


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## cyclonecoaster.com (Aug 7, 2012)

*Not all Phantoms had a lock in the springer or knee action fork*



bricycle said:


> Black Phantom would have a locking fork....




The Phantoms all had springer front ends on them ( but there is always an exception to that rule - someone - somewhere might have ordered one without a springer for some reason - I've seen stranger things happen ) - lock was a deluxe Phantom option on the springer fork & not all of them had it standard - just like the tail light under the Phantoms rear rack which also had two versions one with a ball bearing which would work as a brake light & one without the ball bearing that was just a tail light - the deluxe Phantom rear reflector with the nice chrome housing on the lower portion of the rear fenders - again available on the Phantoms - but not standard on all years & I won't even get into special order bicycles - Even deluxe bicycles had options - RIDE VINTAGE - Frank


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## bricycle (Aug 7, 2012)

cyclonecoaster.com said:


> The Phantoms all had springer front ends on them ( but there is always an exception to that rule - someone - somewhere might have ordered one without a springer for some reason - I've seen stranger things happen ) - lock was a deluxe Phantom option on the springer fork & not all of them had it standard - just like the tail light under the Phantoms rear rack which also had two versions one with a ball bearing which would work as a brake light & one without the ball bearing that was just a tail light - the deluxe Phantom rear reflector with the nice chrome housing on the lower portion of the rear fenders - again available on the Phantoms - but not standard on all years & I won't even get into special order bicycles - Even deluxe bicycles had options - RIDE VINTAGE - Frank




Thanks Frank...learned sumpt'n new ta day.


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## silvercreek (Aug 7, 2012)

After doing research on the serial number (C39273) of my Phantom, I discovered it could be a '52, '54 or a 1957. I find it a little odd that Schwinn didn't have better control of the serial number system. Unless there is something unique on each model year that helps identify which year it is, I will claim 1952 being the correct model as the original owner indicated.


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## bricycle (Aug 7, 2012)

silvercreek said:


> After doing research on the serial number (C39273) of my Phantom, I discovered it could be a '52, '54 or a 1957. I find it a little odd that Schwinn didn't have better control of the serial number system. Unless there is something unique on each model year that helps identify which year it is, I will claim 1952 being the correct model as the original owner indicated.




1957's had the fork pivot bolt through the fork legs......by the way, that's a beaut!!!


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## MagicRat (Aug 7, 2012)

*I Gotta Agree...*

...That Is A Beaut,Clark


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## greenephantom (Aug 7, 2012)

As far as the locking fork being an option, it was only an option (at extra cost) on the later model Phantoms.  The early model Phantoms had it as stock equipment.  Same thing with the tail light, stock on earlies, extra cost option on lates.

I know lots of folks say, hey, anything was possible with Schwinn, they put them together however they felt like it, but that's simply not the case.  But if you'd like to believe that sort of reasoning, I have a very rare special factory order Phantom for sale with a rigid fork and painted fenders and no tank or rack, that chainguard says Wasp, but I have it on good authority it's a Phantom with special order parts.   Also I have a bridge you might like to buy.

Any early Phantom found with a non-locking steer tube had it switched out somewhere along the line, most likely by a collector looking to make a buck or have a locking fork on their own bike.

Cheers, Geoff


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## cyberpaull (Aug 7, 2012)

*Right!*



greenephantom said:


> As far as the locking fork being an option, it was only an option (at extra cost) on the later model Phantoms.  The early model Phantoms had it as stock equipment.  Same thing with the tail light, stock on earlies, extra cost option on lates.
> 
> I know lots of folks say, hey, anything was possible with Schwinn, they put them together however they felt like it, but that's simply not the case.  But if you'd like to believe that sort of reasoning, I have a very rare special factory order Phantom for sale with a rigid fork and painted fenders and no tank or rack, that chainguard says Wasp, but I have it on good authority it's a Phantom with special order parts.   Also I have a bridge you might like to buy.
> 
> ...




That's exactly what I mean.  Thank You


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## cyclonecoaster.com (Aug 8, 2012)

*Not all Phantoms had a lock in the springer or knee action fork*



cyclonecoaster.com said:


> The Phantoms all had springer front ends on them ( but there is always an exception to that rule - someone - somewhere might have ordered one without a springer for some reason - I've seen stranger things happen ) - lock was a deluxe Phantom option on the springer fork & not all of them had it standard - just like the tail light under the Phantoms rear rack which also had two versions one with a ball bearing which would work as a brake light & one without the ball bearing that was just a tail light - the deluxe Phantom rear reflector with the nice chrome housing on the lower portion of the rear fenders - again available on the Phantoms - but not standard on all years & I won't even get into special order bicycles - Even deluxe bicycles had options - RIDE VINTAGE - Frank




Clear the air here - No year was specified in this question - I was referring to the statement " A Black Phantom would have a locking fork " - The Phantoms were produced for 10 years early Phantoms had a locking springer standard - the later ones did not & it could have been an option on the bikes if they had the early style spring fork with the main bolt behind the fork legs like the transition year Phantom bikes - The later Phantoms had a bolt that went through the fork legs & were completely different fork w/o a locking head tube - hope that clears it up as far as the locking springer statement goes - as far as the serial number showing it was originally was a Phantom - that was never documented -- enjoy your bike - Ride Vintage


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## silvercreek (Aug 8, 2012)

bricycle said:


> 1957's had the fork pivot bolt through the fork legs......by the way, that's a beaut!!!




If I understand you correctly does that mean my Phantom is a 1957 because it has a bolt through the fork legs? 

The guy in the YouTube video below claims his is also a '52 and that he restored it himself that has a bolt through the fork. I'm not so nieve to believe everything I see and hear I'm just a novice when it comes to balloon tire bikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VERUWhoqOos

Is this 1952 also wrong because it has a bolt through the fork?

I see several that claim to be 1952 Phantoms that is lockable with the bolt through the fork.  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-SCHWIN...340?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2320ba47c4

Another 1952 Schwinn Phantom with a bolt through the fork.


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## silvercreek (Aug 9, 2012)

I think I may have figured it out. The springer fork assembly in the picture is the correct one for the early Phantoms correct?


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## greenephantom (Aug 9, 2012)

Correct for earlies.  Bolt-behind-leg locking.
Cheers, Geoff


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## silvercreek (Aug 9, 2012)

greenephantom said:


> Correct for earlies.  Bolt-behind-leg locking.
> Cheers, Geoff




Thanks Geoff! That had me worried there for a moment.


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## rhenning (Aug 9, 2012)

This is my later Phantom.  It is a Spring 1958 Green model.  If you look at the pictures you can see that the bolt goes through the fork differently than early bikes and the other thing on later bikes as in the picture is the use of the 46 tooth middle weight sprocket.  It really does make it easier to ride the bike.  Roger


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## Tanner Dotzauer (Aug 9, 2012)

*Still chasing the Phantom 51*














Wow lets see if these images actually post

So, thank all of you for your input. I have hopefully attached some photos that will show paint detail as this appears to be the only way to determine what the bike may have been. At this point it is just a mystery that is intriguing to me. I know that in 1951 Schwinn made a B4 Unequipped Cantilever frame, B6 Equipped Cantilever Frame and the "Phantom -Chrome fenders and trim- frame. the chian ring has 52 teeth if that matters at all. 

Cheers!


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## greenephantom (Aug 9, 2012)

Picture #5 sure looks like Phantom style paint under the overpaint.  Given, it could also be a B6 or B4, but at this point no real way to tell.

Work through some more of the overpaint and see how much of the original paint you've got.  There's likely better ways, but I've used #0000 and #000 steel wool and spit to work though overpaint.  With careful work you might be able to get back to what's left of the original Phantom style paint.

Cheers, Geoff


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## Ozark Flyer (Aug 9, 2012)

That's what I was thinking.  That last photo with the faint outline of a diamond on the seat tube smells like a Phantom to me.


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## cyclonecoaster.com (Aug 9, 2012)

*Picture # 5 looks promising*



Ozark Flyer said:


> That's what I was thinking.  That last photo with the faint outline of a diamond on the seat tube smells like a Phantom to me.




*I have had a "house painted" bicycle that I have picked up here & there & since it has layers of color on it try some other techniques too - *Schwinn Factory paint is surprising durable ( hand pinstripes screened names & decals - not so much ) - I have unveiled a Black Phantom before from spray bombed purchase - 

I tried one or more of the following - even combinations of one or more solvents - Acetone - Paint Thinner - Lacquer Thinner - etc. with mixed results - depends on the paint - but sometimes it comes off with ease since whatever you might try has a solvent base similar to the "house paint" on the frame which in turn breaks it down with minimal or sometime without harming the original finish at all - *I CAUTION YOU - Try it on a underside first & this is NOT A SOLUTION - just something I have found worked for me in the past *- who knows - it's worth a try - you may just surprise yourself - good luck with it - keep us posted


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## snickle (Aug 12, 2012)

Just to add here, it is my belief that 1954 and earlier Phantoms had 

standard locking springer

standard tail light

52 tooth "big boy" sprocket

rear located springer pivot bolt ( as all pre-55 springer equipped schwinns did)

and enamel paint


then in 1955, the springer type changed for all bikes (but a locking -older- springer was an option), the paint turned metallic, the crank got smaller (46 tooth clover), the tail light became an option (if not then you had the 6 hole rack). Then in 1959 (the last year) the script on the tank and chain guard changed to that (60's style) font.

am  correct?

If I am correct, did the post 54 frames still have the lock tab welded on the in side for the lock option?

And just to get back to the original post, that looks like it could have been a phantom, if so, thats too bad someone took the springer tank, rack, and pedals. Those are high dollar parts. Do the fenders have original rivets?


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## greenephantom (Aug 12, 2012)

The lock tab shows up for several more years on heavyweights.  Which is helpful for modern day collectors.  One time I even found a lock tab inside the headtube of a '58 Flying Star (middleweight), which made no sense.  Perhaps Schwinn was just using up all the tabbed headtubes, or perhaps a random mix up.
Cheers, Geoff


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