# Toc Ladies Frames Id Help Needed.



## rustNspokes (Aug 12, 2016)

The first is an olive green frame with ornate gold scroll work and slightly larger than normal diameter tubing. It's fully lugged. Serial on bottom left hand side of head tube (323583 or 823583)










The second is has a partially split bottom bracket (just where the cups are), "D" shaped chain-stays, square socket crank nuts and an aluminum chain-guard. It's not a lugged frame. Serial number on bottom bracket (340197). Four badge holes in rectangular pattern.


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## locomotion (Aug 13, 2016)

the drawing of the badge outline you posted has to be Cleveland
the first you posted looks like Monarch scrolls, and lugged portions, could also be close to a Monarch badge outline!!! but not sure about this one


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## rustNspokes (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks for the info, that'll give me something to research.


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## weebob (Aug 13, 2016)

I believe I have the sister to your frame B33909. I bought it a year ago and I also can find nothing on the frame.So I will follow this post close...I hope my 

 PICS load up for you...


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## weebob (Aug 13, 2016)

Another pic of the fork for you


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## weebob (Aug 13, 2016)

Just to make things more clear, My purchase was FRAME,FORK,STEM, BARS,CRANK, BOTTOM BRACKET .The rest is my add on so it can be ridden,,,,


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## rustNspokes (Aug 13, 2016)

That's the same manufacture for sure, down to the font of the serial stamping. Whats interesting is that my bike has the same maroon red under the green on the rear half of the frame for whatever reason.


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## weebob (Aug 13, 2016)

Look close at the crescent moon drive pin hole  on the sprocket that should be a tell tail sign on the manufacturer. I could not find anything.  the fork is also by itself ,I've seen some close but not the same,,,,,the hole in the fork is not factory I drilled it for the fender bracket [maybe shouldn't have done that??????] HAPPY HUNTING


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## rustNspokes (Aug 14, 2016)

I found the sprocket for the black frame, It's 15 tooth, 2" center hole, 2-1/4 bdc on the mounting holes.


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## weebob (Aug 14, 2016)

Do you plan on selling the green frame???


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## rustNspokes (Aug 14, 2016)

I have a lot of projects so I may eventually sell one of these, not sure which one at this point though.


weebob said:


> Do you plan on selling the green frame???


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## weebob (Aug 14, 2016)

spotted this today


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## locomotion (Aug 15, 2016)

weebob said:


> spotted this todayView attachment 350182



never seen this one myself, but have seen a lot of Cleveland built bikes,
I wonder if the size is different?
the holes spacing could probably help, do you have measurements?


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## weebob (Aug 15, 2016)

I found it here..vintagecolumbiabikes. under head badges,  http://www.vintagecolumbiabikes.com/index.html


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## locomotion (Aug 15, 2016)

weebob said:


> I found it here..vintagecolumbiabikes. under head badges,  http://www.vintagecolumbiabikes.com/index.html



I had seen the Niagara badge before but not that one,
oddly enough on that headbadge page, both the curved Niagara and Westfield badge only have 2 badge holes!!!!


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## rustNspokes (Aug 15, 2016)

Didn't Pope absorb a bunch of brands (including Lozier/Cleveland) somewhere around 1900ish?


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## locomotion (Aug 15, 2016)

I don't know when ABC (Pope) absorbed all the brands, but it Canada it was in 1899 that CCM was "created" and it "absorbed" most Canadian manufacturers/branch including, but not limited to: Cleveland, Columbia, Massey, ect


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## rustNspokes (Aug 15, 2016)

I found this photo is another cabe thread, its a mens sprocket, but it's the same crank and sprocket design. The closest match I've found is a cleveland model 40 that sold in the hartung auction. My usual go to Archive.org's search seems to be having some issues.


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## rustNspokes (Aug 15, 2016)

1898 Model 40, the highest grade ladies' Cleveland, is one of the most notable productions of the year, with specifications, in part, as follows. 28-inch wheels, with blue spokes; new hubs of barrel pattern; 63 gear and 6-1/4 inch new style oval shaped cranks; 21 or 23-inch frame; 2-1/4 inch drop crank hanger; flush joints; curved rear upright stays; improved Burwell bearings, with new automatic self oiling device; new Cleveland hardened block and pin chain, 3/16 inch; flanged sprockets of new design; 4-3/4 tread with distance between ball races and crank shaft bearings increased, front sprocket overhanging; chain pull binder; fancy grips;new Cleveland rubber pedals; side plates of one piece nickeled on both sides, dust proof; forward L saddle post; black or green enamel, nickel finish. Price, $75


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## locomotion (Aug 15, 2016)

rustNspokes said:


> I found this photo is another cabe thread, its a mens sprocket, but it's the same crank and sprocket design. The closest match I've found is a cleveland model 40 that sold in the hartung auction. My usual go to Archive.org's search seems to be having some issues.



yes both definitely pre-1899 Cleveland sprockets


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## weebob (Nov 4, 2016)

Just a refresher bump for info on the first frame in  question...anyone know the maker of this frame?...


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## David Brown (Nov 5, 2016)

I  will make a stab in the dark and say maybe Sterling .Iam guessing from memory as my Sterling head badge seems to have looked like that out line.Plus it was  that colour green.


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## weebob (Nov 6, 2016)

Thanks Dave, I can't find any chain rings that look like mine in my Sterling search .There  are many small differences in frames and forks in my search for a maker of this frame but the key to my chain ring should be the key to the bike manufacture,,,, or not,, I have spent many hours researching and looking at thousands of pics to ID this frame and this post is to only thing that has anything that helped,,,, rustNspokes has one,, I've been lookin for over a year and this post by him is the only help,,,,, THANKS again,,,,,WEEBOB


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## rustNspokes (Nov 27, 2016)

This has been a tough bike to ID. I've found a thrid, this time a mens frame that fellow caber Bicycleface sold. It has the same lugs, same crimped stays, same serial number format, it has to be the same manufacture. Different head badge ghost, this one is an oval with a diagonal banner across it.


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## Ed Minas (Nov 27, 2016)

weebob said:


> Another pic of the fork for you
> 
> View attachment 349548
> 
> View attachment 349550





Is your Trike a Cleveland?    That is an awesome Trike!


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## weebob (Dec 6, 2016)

Ed Minas ,This is not Cleveland, My trike was a freelance RATROD style made from an old 80s Workman and Sears trike,, This frame and rustnspokes 2 frames are still unidentified,,,I have since put it back on 2 wheels,trying to get it back to period correctness ,,,I never got the geometry of the trike to track properly,, 3 point tracking and 4 point adjustment with a rear dropout frame without modifying the frame is very trying on my patience ,,,, all the trikes I've seen  from the modern era have front dropouts in the rear, that makes it much easier to get tracking adjusted without over tightening on the hub,,,,,


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## weebob (Dec 7, 2016)

rustNspokes said:


> This has been a tough bike to i.d.. I've found a thrid, this time a mens frame that fellow caber Bicycleface sold. It has the same lugs, same crimped stays, same serial number format, it has to be the same manufacture. Different head badge ghost, this one is an oval with a diagonal banner across it.


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## weebob (Dec 7, 2016)

Hey rustnspokes do you have that mans frame or did you just see it ? That would be a great wall hanging pair,,


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## rustNspokes (Dec 7, 2016)

I don't own the mens frame, I just found the photos in an old sale forum thread. I posted it because I thought the head badge ghost might be helpful. Apparently they had at least two different badges.


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## rustNspokes (Jan 30, 2018)

The saga continues. I'm fairly certain that the mens frame posted above is a Mead & Prentiss "Albion" or "Amazon". The head badge ghost is a match. That said, I believe Mead & Prentiss were only re-sellers, so the actual manufacture is still a mystery. The badge ghost on my green ladies frame isn't a match to the mead badges, but this appears to be basically the same bike.


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## weebob (Jan 30, 2018)

Would you say that this is the same chain ring???


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## rustNspokes (Jan 31, 2018)

I cant say for certain but it looks pretty close. I think that mystery crank in the buy/sell was of the same make as well.


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