# Ever Seen a Chainwheel Like This One?



## RaleighRich (Dec 30, 2018)

This chain wheel is on a tricycle.
It appears to have small sprockets that can slide up and down within the chain wheel disc.  Just guessing they could be adjusted to allow for a variation in gear inches?
The frame of the trike appears to have a boxed member that connects the rear wheels to the forward frame -- it also appears to be adjustable to account for different chain lengths (depending on where the small sprockets are located on the chain wheel.  ???  Just guessing.
Just curious as to what this might be and how it worked.

Thanks for any info!


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## TR6SC (Dec 30, 2018)

Looks like the cogs slide up and down or in and out. Gearing!!!


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## RaleighRich (Dec 31, 2018)

TR6SC said:


> Looks like the cogs slide up and down or in and out. Gearing!!!




I believe you are right -- be kinda awkward to change gears as you rode along!  
Given a little more thought ........... would the little sprockets slide farther out the faster you pedaled?  If, so, there would have had to have been some sort of chain tensioner involved.  idk  interesting set up.


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## RaleighRich (Dec 31, 2018)

Found it!  On the Very LAST page of Frank Berto's  _The Dancing Chain_

From The Retrogrouch Blog:

1974 - Hagen All-Speed Expanding Chainwheel. This had 6 smaller sprockets that moved outward as an inner spiral-plate turned. The gear range was 2.85 to 1, or 285%.



 This Hagen All-Speed crank was up for sale on eBay last year. Top photo shows it in "low gear" position, and the bottom photo is "high gear." And it was infinitely variable in-between. At least one of the ads described it as having "a jillion speeds."[/QUOTE]


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## juvela (Jan 1, 2019)

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Back at launch cycling enthusiasts loved to joke "...yes it is infinitely variable it is also infinitely heavy."

Spokesperson for the product was Fred Cox, the then placekicker for the Minnesota Vikings football team.













http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2016/01/new-is-old-again-expanding-chainring.html

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=b0eefb07-6959-4754-8db9-5aaf4d760573&Enum=115

[my apologies if any of these are duplicates from the mtbr site.  my browser cannot open that page.]

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## Rivnut (Jan 1, 2019)

Looks like an early version of Ford's CVT - Constant Velocity Transmission.


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## RaleighRich (Jan 1, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Back at launch cycling enthusiasts loved to joke "...yes it is infinitely variable it is also infinitely heavy."
> 
> ...



Thank you!!!  Very informative!
I wondered how it worked since the lever was missing from the trike I saw it on. 
So I presumed it must have been a centrifugal/centripetal force thing going on, but , no, it was lever and pedaling controlled.
The two items with the cable, one is the lever, and the other goes around the chain wheel to somehow manipulate the sprockets -- any idea how that worked?
Very interesting -- thanks for the post.


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## juvela (Jan 1, 2019)

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Hello Rich,

Sorry, can no assist with usage information.  Have never seen one in person.

Question for you -

Are you able to read the trike's head emblem?

In your photo I can read -

ELBA

RYKE (presumably a T at the front had been rubbed off)

ORLANDO

Is this correct?  Do you think the Orlando refers to the city in Florida?

Thank you for any clarification.  

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## RaleighRich (Jan 1, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Hello Rich,
> 
> ...



Thats what I can read too -- I did try to find any bicycle manufacturers in Orlando FL that may have made the trike, but had no luck.
Thanks again for your previous post, that cleared up a lot of questions for me.


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## juvela (Jan 1, 2019)

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Regarding cost -

Noted in the mail order advert that set/kit had an "introductory price" of 42USD in1974.

Wondered what that would rerpresent in today's currency.

Used an online calculator which yielded a price of 215USD and an inflation rate of 411%.

In the text article the writer mentions set cost "about 50USD."

This price would work out to 256USD in present day funds.

Used this calculator -

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/













The unit's chain tensioner -





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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jan 1, 2019)

I figure if you can't figure out how to shift a derailure bike or a 3 speed type bike this won't do you any good either. we've all see people walking a bike up a small hill or freeway overpass with the chain on the big chainring up front.


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## Duchess (Jan 2, 2019)

I can't seem to find how it shifts. Obviously, the inner spiral has to rotate independently of the crank speed, but I don't see how that's achieved. I would think coaxial bottom bracket with a shift cable inside the frame, but these were sold as retrofits, so that's highly unlikely.

CVTs work completely differently, though they both offer an infinite gear ratio choice within its range. A CVT is basically two sets of opposing cones that form pulley shapes mounted parallel to each other—one on the input shaft, one on the output shaft—with a belt linking them. To adjust ratios, the noses of the cones are either pushed together or apart depending upon demand. The CVT isn't a new idea, just recent in its common usage in cars as it is a poor design for high torque transfer due to slip. Subaru licensed it for the Justy and I remember reading in the late nineties how they couldn't get it to work with a bigger engine and that the inherent technical hurtles would likely relegate it to tiny engines for the foreseeable future without a lot of R&D devoted to it. A couple years later, Nissan started putting them not just on the backs of V6s, but in a heavy vehicle to top it and I laughed. Sure enough, you could line the broken SUVs with transmission warranty claims around the block. Now with about 20 years of R&D from multiple manufacturers behind them, as a whole, they suck a little bit less.


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## catfish (Jan 2, 2019)

Wild design. Never seen one of these before.


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## Rusty Klunker (Jan 2, 2019)

Never seen one but it is interesting. In the first clipping it says "pick a gear you want" made in sound like you manually set it. Now reading the last clip sounds like the leaver is like a clutch or in and out box. Sounds like it locks the spiral. Squeeze the leaver, pedal forward and the spiral expands the sprockets. Squeeze the leaver again, pedal backwards and the spiral retracts the sprockets . Pretty cool!


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## Rusty Klunker (Jan 2, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Are you able to read the trike's head emblem?
> 
> ...





Blowing the picture up it does look like it says Orlando FL, or FLA


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## RaleighRich (Jan 2, 2019)

Rusty Klunker said:


> Blowing the picture up it does look like it says Orlando FL, or FLAView attachment 927511



Here is an alphabetical list of bicycle manufacturers, none contain the letters ELBA after the first (missing?) letter on the head badge.
Hmmmmmmm  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bicycle_brands_and_manufacturing_companies


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## kngtmat (Jan 2, 2019)

May be from some small store putting their own sticker on it. Looks like a Murray or Columbia bikes fork. But the frame itself doesn't look like Columbia trikes I seen like the one my brother had.

Looks like a Wald stem. So the numbers might at least give a year of the bike.


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## juvela (Jan 2, 2019)

Rusty Klunker said:


> Blowing the picture up it does look like it says Orlando FL, or FLAView attachment 927511




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Thanks so much for this post!

I had completely missed the FLA.

...must be these elderly peepers I be working with  

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Fine Sherlocking on the ELBA name Rich!  

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## RaleighRich (Jan 2, 2019)

kngtmat said:


> May be from some small store putting their own sticker on it. Looks like a Murray or Columbia bikes fork. But the frame itself doesn't look like Columbia trikes I seen like the one my brother had.
> 
> Looks like a Wald stem. So the numbers might at least give a year of the bike.



That is a good point -- the split arrow E may have been their logo.


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## RaleighRich (Jan 2, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Thanks so much for this post!
> 
> ...



Well, Im still working on it      I emailed Hagen Engineering International (now in St. Paul, MN) and inquired about the chain wheel.
They have nothing to do with bicycles now, but who knows 45 years ago.
How many Hagen Internationals can there be in the Twin Cities??   
Maybe we will find out something.


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## RaleighRich (Jan 2, 2019)

Is that little pole like object the same part in both photos?


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## juvela (Jan 3, 2019)

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Meant to ask -

does the trike show any other surviving transfers?

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Agree about the Columbia/Murray appearing crown.

Yes, we could be looking at a contract build...

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Slightly off topic but somewhat related -

Am I correct in thinking that there were alternate drive systems which shifted automatically depending upon chain tension?

Have just a faint memory of this so thought I would ask the experts...  

Any information much appreciated.

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## Duchess (Jan 3, 2019)

juvela said:


> Am I correct in thinking that there were alternate drive systems which shifted automatically depending upon chain tension?





There were/are some automatic shifting bikes. I wouldn't be surprised to see a patent for one from the late 1800s, but there was one in at least the 1980s that used weights on the rear wheel to shift a conventional derailleur, later there were several electronic ones that used some kind of unconventional derailleur and shifted based on load (IIRC). Today, there's also an electronically shifting NuVinci CVT hub that sounds like it would be an effective, if expensive, solution to a very minor problem. There might be more, but that's all I know of.

When I was a kid, I checked out one of the early centrifugal weight versions and the sales guy determinedly talked me out of it even though I expressed no interest in purchase and was only interested in seeing how it functioned—apparently, they were _that_ bad. I thought it was an interesting idea, but even as a middle schooler I could see that it looked cheesily-built enough to seldom work right and it didn't help that they put it on a bike with cheap components and an "old person's" type hybrid frame. Not my thing, anyway—making custom shifters are one of my favorite things with customizing bikes.


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## RaleighRich (Jan 3, 2019)

juvela said:


> -----
> 
> Meant to ask -
> 
> ...



No expert here    Interesting video on the LandRider auto shift bicycle:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...0DC11C1529596C4903280DC11C152959&&FORM=VRDGAR


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## RaleighRich (Jan 3, 2019)

_Meant to ask -

does the trike show any other surviving transfers?_ 

Oooops!  Missed that -- no other transfers that I saw -- the whole bike is pretty crusty.


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## RaleighRich (Jan 3, 2019)

Found this showing the Hagen mounted on an actual bicycle.  Still no idea how it actually worked.  The photo does show some sort of changer on the seat tube.


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## RaleighRich (Jan 3, 2019)

If the link loads for you.  Here is the patent information for the Hagen Chainwheel:
Its written in 'Patentese' -- just skimming thru it, it difficult to understand.
The patent drawing shows some device for engaging the chain, not the toothed sprockets seen above,  Something must have changed somewhere.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3867851.pdf


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## bikemonkey (Jan 4, 2019)

49autocycledeluxe said:


> I figure if you can't figure out how to shift a derailure bike or a 3 speed type bike this won't do you any good either. we've all see people walking a bike up a small hill or freeway overpass with the chain on the big chainring up front.



I think the idea was not to make it it easier or simpler to shift, but to offer a greater number of gear choices between the high and low extremes, i.e., the gear steps could be made very close in ratio from one to the other. No need to worry about a front derailleur and shifter, half step chain rings, crossover shift patterns, etc.

Some other positive aspects not mentioned which are worth consideration may be the ability to use a standard pitch chain, single cogs with no dish on the rear wheel, no freewheel/cassette body internal issues, or chain line problems.


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## RaleighRich (Jan 4, 2019)

RaleighRich said:


> No expert here    Interesting video on the LandRider auto shift bicycle:
> 
> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...0DC11C1529596C4903280DC11C152959&&FORM=VRDGAR





RaleighRich said:


> _Meant to ask -_
> 
> _does the trike show any other surviving transfers?_
> 
> Oooops!  Missed that -- no other transfers that I saw -- the whole bike is pretty crusty.



Back to the yard this morning, and the trike is an Elba, Orlando, FL











The only part there is the chain wheel, no tensioner, no lever, no changer.  That white stripe on the downtube is where the changer was mounted?


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## 49autocycledeluxe (Jan 4, 2019)

you can put these on the shelf next to your Biopace Chainrings from the 80's.


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## Andrew Gorman (Jan 4, 2019)

Or your Sugino Cycloids.  Dang wobble drives keep coming back every few years. This one looks kind of interesting, and probably  lighter than a Dana 3 speed.


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## RaleighRich (Jan 4, 2019)

RaleighRich said:


> Is that little pole like object the same part in both photos?View attachment 927696
> 
> View attachment 927697
> 
> Not the same part -- actually a tooth on a sprocket.


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## psmcd (Jan 5, 2019)

Here's another sort-of infinitely variable/infinitely heavy drive gear system.


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## RaleighRich (Jan 5, 2019)

psmcd said:


> Here's another sort-of infinitely variable/infinitely heavy drive gear system.



That is a strange drive system.  Thanks for the post.


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## MarkK (Nov 30, 2022)

RaleighRich said:


> Back to the yard this morning, and the trike is an Elba, Orlando, FLView attachment 928221
> 
> View attachment 928222
> 
> ...



This discussion probably ended 3 years ago, but just in case it didn't, I can add a comment.  I actually bought one of these drives in the late 70's and mounted it on a Raleigh with a 3 Speed Sturmey Archer hub. I thought it worked pretty well, and it gave me  a broader range of gears than the 3-speed hub alone. The shifting mechanism was just a brake-like shoe that held the control plate stationary. (It normally rotated with the chainwheel.) The spiral shaped groove in the control plate then moved the toothed small wheels inwards if you were pedalling normally, or outwards if you backpedalled.

There were only two problems I encountered.  It was heavy as a rock!  Also, on rare occasion, it would shift itself. I was never able to analyze why.

 I saw the picture of it in Frank Berto's book, "The Dancing Chain".  Brought back an interesting memory.

I got rid of (sold, gifted, don't recall) the 3-speed bike with the Hagen Allspeed when I graduated and bought a shiny new Motobecane 10-speed.


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## MarkK (Nov 30, 2022)

RaleighRich said:


> That is a strange drive system.  Thanks for the post.





psmcd said:


> Here's another sort-of infinitely variable/infinitely heavy drive gear system.



The Stringbike seem like a modern variant of the American Star or Svea velocipede.


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