# Old paint/chrome repair



## sirlombo

Hey!

I'm starting to restore an old finnish "tunturi" from the 50s. 
There is quite a bit of rust in the frame and mudguards. The idea would be to take rust off as much as possible, keep the original paint and apply some protective layer.

The plan for painted areas would be like this:
1 - Soap wash
2 - WD 40 (or some other oil product) applied with copper wool
 (would polish compound be a good alternative in this case?)
3 - Car wax as a protective layer

On chromed areas, I would use the same procedure but maybe on step 2 could use chrome polish compound instead?

Would this be a good procedure or would you recommend some other one?

Thanks in advance,
-M


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## MagicRat

Anything that will clean a car will clean a bike.

Have at it.


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## Buster1

Mix up some Oxalic Acid (wood bleach) and soak the chrome parts for 24 hrs.  Be careful with the stuff.  All the rust will come right off and it will not harm the chrome.  It may hurt paInt, so don't use it on those parts.

Rinse well, apply light wax or polish.

Good luck!


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## SirMike1983

I've done some experiments with Oxalic over the years. I've seen many posts on fora going back and forth over whether painted parts can go in the Oxalic solution. I've seen Evap-O-Rust in the stores, but have always passed on it because of the cost and because Oxalic seems to be a workable solution to rust.

Oxalic acid is not a cure-all. It does an outstanding job lifting rust. However, if you have rust underneath the plating, it will pull up the plating in sheets. It will do the same with paint, if rust is enough mixed into the paint. What happens is the acid dissolves the rust, but in so doing it frees whatever is bound in with the rust from adherence to the steel. So if you have a rust spot and the rust has spread underneath the surrounding plating, it will not only dissolve the rust in the pit itself, but it will leech under the plating, dissolve that rust, and thereby leave a big sheet of plating that will come clean off the steel. It will do the same with paint- it cleans the pit, but then if there is rust under the paint, it will dissolve that and pull up the paint bound in with the rust. However, if the paint has good adherence to the steel and it is clean underneath, then it will stay put. Left long enough, the acid can straight dissolve the actual paint as well, but that's a longer soak than should be going on. 

When I do painted parts in Oxalic I check every few minutes (10-15) and rub with a clean cloth. If I see too many signs of paint coming up, I pull and wash down the part. If it looks like I'm getting rust and no paint, I return to the soak for another few minutes. I'm a bit more aggressive with plating, but not much. I check every 30 min or so on that. I might leave a part in a couple hours, at most. If the solution is more diluted, you may end up going longer.

The result is that you have to know your part in terms of age and condition. If you suspect it's a truly antique part with possible rust infiltration sideways from the pits, you may want to limit or skip the soak. If you do soak, test the part every few minutes with a cloth if it is painted- check how much color comes off on the cloth. With plating, look for signs it is bubbling underneath to make sure you don't "soak off" what's left of your plating. 

Oxalic should not be used for silver-derivative plating/metal and should not be used with Cad plating. Cad plating is the most relevant issue to bikes, and if you soak your cad parts in there, it will pull the plating right off. You can actually see it coming off in the solution if you watch.

The front fender on the Columbia below was covered in surface rust. I did the soak and check, then rinsed, cleaned, and polished the part. The cloth showed a little blue, but nothing more than would be produced in a conservative polish job. The result is pretty clean.


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## slick

SirMike1983, Thanks for writing this VERY informative article on this stuff. I was curious how it works and i'm still a little scared to try it but you eased some of my worries. I usually clean paint with 000 steel wool and rubbing compound and it kills the rust as it polishes without scratching to bad. Do you have any before pictures of your front fender? I'd like to see the before/after result. Thanks again!


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## Boris

I'm with Slick. Thanks for the instructions. Very well written. It will be copied and pasted in my instructions file


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## Gary Mc

For chrome & plated parts I just use a soak of straight distilled white vinegar with great results checking the parts hourly until the rust is gone.  Do not leave them overnight though, you need to check hourly.  Distilled white vinegar is cheap & safe.  Then use grade #00 steel wool to gently remove the rust & residue.  Works on cadmium, chrome or nickel.  I follow up with Meguiars Marine-RV metal polish.

On paint I use WD40 with #00 steel wool very lightly on rusty areas followed by rubbing compound (gently using it), polishing compound next, & finally a couple of coats of carnauba wax.  I also use the carnauba wax on my plated parts after cleaning.  Meguiars is my product of choice.

I have never tried oxalic acid although Mike's results look fantastic & are well explained.  I just shy away from anything with acid in the title preferring something a little safer.

Good luck!!!!!


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## Buster1

Well Oxalic Acid IS acid...but you have to mix up a weak batch.  Most guys recommend about a Tablespoon per gallon.  I forgot most of my chemistry, but this yields about a 1% (or so) solution and is very safe.

Now I still don't touch it and I wear all the protective gear, but it is safe and this allows a full 24 hr soak on most parts with good rust removal and minimal to zero bad effects on the good parts.  Though SirMike is right...you don't want to use it on Cad plated parts and some other funky metals...but for most steel...I love it!


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## abe lugo

*nice before and after*

One question to you guy that have used Oxalic acid, do you need to run baking soda or something like that to neutralize the acid after dipping?

I have bough some of that Oxalic acid or wood bleach but have yet to make a full dipping bucket of it.


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## SirMike1983

slick said:


> SirMike1983, Thanks for writing this VERY informative article on this stuff. I was curious how it works and i'm still a little scared to try it but you eased some of my worries. I usually clean paint with 000 steel wool and rubbing compound and it kills the rust as it polishes without scratching to bad. Do you have any before pictures of your front fender? I'd like to see the before/after result. Thanks again!




Here are two fenders that I bought together. They came off the same bike and were in basically the same condition on arrival. The one on the left was in the bath and the one on the right was not.






Here is the bath: an old garbage can filled with Oxalic acid. The fender is dipped and flipped. Some parts get double dipped as a result, but I monitored it closely and it worked out pretty well. If you look very carefully you can see that below the water line, the white paint stripe is already clean, whereas above it's still rusty. The brace was a throwaway as I had better ones already and installed them when I was done. Make sure you check your time for dipping duration.






Here is the inside of the fender after treatment:






Another after shot:







I do keep a light reading bike blog:

http://bikeshedva.blogspot.com/

It will not have the heavy, technical details of the stuff I do, but it is more a light reading thing with lots of pictures. The idea is basically just to have fun with old bikes that are riders.


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## rebirthbikes

*Sir Mike...*

Chatted with him a couple times today and then I took a trip to the local hardware store. I picked up gloves, goggles, the acid, and a few other things for just under $20. Gotta love that. Then I mixed a batch of 2 Tbs to 1 gallon of hot water. I found the dirtiest and crustiest pieces I have. Seriously you can see how terrible these pieces were. Short of grinding them and re-plating them there was nothing I could do... until now. Just look at the before and after and you'll see what I'm talking about. Sir Mike... you are just that... a scholar and a gentlemen. Thanks for all the advice. To answer any previous questions... a rinse of water will be fine no need to use baking soda. Also I called the company that makes the acid and they said it's ok to rinse down the drain with the water running. Thought that might help anyone out. Can't wait to use this trick on some painted parts.
thanks,
judd


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## SirMike1983

The after shot is a good example of what Oxalic Acid can and cannot do. If your plating is decent and has a solid bond to the underlying metal, then if you do the soak right the acid will clean it up. If there is rust under the plating or a true pit to the bare metal, then you have an area of lost plating. If the plating is flaking, it probably will just get pulled up in the soak and you'll have bare metal in that spot. You have to consider the part and weigh this against the bronze wool and Ballistol/etc approach. Oxalic may pull up a lot of plating if you have a compromised part.


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## rebirthbikes

*All of these...*

Parts were severely pitted. I spent the better part of a year trying to clean them up, with no affect. However, this process did give me the desired effect of natural aging/patina that I have been looking for. The two stem caps from the springer came out to look brand new again, with only wrench marks showing on the chrome. The Springer bolt and head piece were almost rotted all the way through and now they have a wonderful patina on them. Also, the threads on the springer bolt, the two stem caps, and AS bolts came out superb. The threads look brand new again. I highly recommend this process. My next step is to try this process on some cranks that I have. And some pedal caps. I am supremely impressed with this process and will be using it in the near future. The next time I soak some parts, I plan on using parts that have a 6/7 in chrome to put this to the test. I'l post photos of that in a week or so.

My solution was 2 1/2 Tbls of oxalic acid per 1 gallon of water. I dipped all these parts in two different batches. It took about 8-9 hours for the solution to work its magic. Afterwards I used a medium/heavy rubbing compound on them and then a final polish with simichrome. Worked like a charm. I have to thank Mike for all help and the pointers. 

As I said before, these parts were incredibly bad, but they restored perfectly for a nice patina on a bike. These will be used on the Panther I'm refurbishing. As that's what they came off of.

thank you MIKE!!!!

-judd


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## sirlombo

Thanks a lot for the very precise instructions/ideas and good example photos. 
I think I'll try the oxalic solution for fenders and chromed parts and copper wool+wd40 in the frame. 
I'll also post some pics in a few weeks.


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## jd56

*Rust....arggg*

I too, am a sceptic, fear of loosing what original paint that still exists is the concern. "ACID" is a term that scares me.

Thanks for the tips.
My issue is the 49 Phantom i just acquired. The frame is one that was well used and abused. Then what boys 49 wouldn't be. The top rail of the frame is one of the worst I've experienced. 
If the orlic acid is to be used I assume the entire frame needs to be submerged. Wow, that's a big pan to get, which I don't have.
Suggestions as to how to do the entire frame or do I do a section at a time....perplexing it is to me.

Then, when the rust is removed, what to do to the bare metal that is now exposed to prevent further rust contamination? Clearcoat? Wax? Sealant of some type?

Thanks for the instructions but, I'm still a sceptic.
Here is my rusted frame.


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## SirMike1983

Finding a tub big enough to do an entire frame and then filling it up with the mixture is likely going to be a pain and very messy. Plus, you would have to stopper the openings to prevent the mixture from getting trapped in the pipes. You could indeed dip in portions/phases, then rotate when ready. I don't use a dip for frames because of the hassel.  I use a dremel with a wire brush attachment and work the spots until down to the bare metal. I suggest a soft metal brush like bronze/copper and a low speed setting.  After that, you can keep it bare and oiled to prevent rust, or touch up the paint, depending on your philosophy of restoration and the bike at hand. I do not suggest clear coating bare metal because it tends to rust underneath the clear, then you get coated-in rust, which is a pain to remove. Paint seems to do better than just clear coat, if you decide to apply something (on some bikes you want to leave the paint entirely original).  

It is possible as well to take clean rags, soak in your oxalic mixture, then apply like bandages to the rusty parts. You would monitor every few minutes and refresh the bandage as needed. You can cover parts where you don't want the mixture to go as well. I like the Dremel method for frames better because it allows a lot of control and because of the mess you get with the rags, but if that's going to take forever, I suppose I'd try the rags first and see where it takes me. Some like to coat the inside of the frame with framesaver while they have it apart as well.


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## rebirthbikes

*Simple fix*

I just tried it on a frame myself. I disassembled the entire bicycle, cups and all. I had some old wine and champagne corks lying around so I used those to Stop up the head, down, and bottom bracket tubes. It worked very well actually. Then I filled a 25 gallon Rubbermaid tub with 30 Tbls of oxallic acid and around twenty two gallons of hot water. I left room for overflow. I literally checked the frame every five minutes and once I was content with rust removal I flipped the frame in the bucket. It worked pretty well and then I soaked the frame in the tub. The lady wasn't crazy about a bicycle taking a cold bath... But you win some you lose some. Anyways, before I gave it a cold bath I removed the corks as to wash out any acid that might have made it into the inner tubes. However I must say upon removal of the corks... The interior seemed to be dry as a bone, but I did find a rusty nail lodged inside the down tube... Still not quite sure as to how or why someone would have done that. 

I hope that helps. Sorry I don't have any photos this time.
-judd


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## jd56

Thanks for the tips. 
I think I will do the pain staking chore of using the brass brush. I like patina but, rust is just a sore sight, in my opinion.

Then again, this is a 1949 Schwinn and probably should show it's age and wear. The telltale orange highlights on the Phantom have come back to life and look great after the rubbing compound. 
Regardless, I will be in search of this Orlic Acid today and test this miracle product. I have another frame I can use as the gennypig, I think.

Before and after pics of the process are forthcoming.

Did I ever mention, that I love this site....well, I do and it's great to have the responses from those that are willing to share.


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## SirMike1983

rebirthbikes said:


> I just tried it on a frame myself. I disassembled the entire bicycle, cups and all. I had some old wine and champagne corks lying around so I used those to Stop up the head, down, and bottom bracket tubes. It worked very well actually. Then I filled a 25 gallon Rubbermaid tub with 30 Tbls of oxallic acid and around twenty two gallons of hot water. I left room for overflow. I literally checked the frame every five minutes and once I was content with rust removal I flipped the frame in the bucket. It worked pretty well and then I soaked the frame in the tub. The lady wasn't crazy about a bicycle taking a cold bath... But you win some you lose some. Anyways, before I gave it a cold bath I removed the corks as to wash out any acid that might have made it into the inner tubes. However I must say upon removal of the corks... The interior seemed to be dry as a bone, but I did find a rusty nail lodged inside the down tube... Still not quite sure as to how or why someone would have done that.
> 
> I hope that helps. Sorry I don't have any photos this time.
> -judd




Nicely done- shows it's possible to do it well if you want to dip it. It's a tricky thing doing a part of that size. Some frames also have very small drain holes drilled in them that can let in the mix. I like the concept of the dip because it can really get to the rust in the tough spots that are difficulty to reach even with the Dremel. I just don't think I have a tub big enough and the better half would not be too pleased about having the container sitting out in the driveway like that.

I suppose if you had several beat up frames and wanted to nail them all in one shot, you could bathe each in the mixture until it's used up. Would sure beat having to wire brush several frames down.


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## jd56

Ok so I went out to buy some of this Orlic acid and I cant find at the Lowes or Home Depot.
HDepot has a product called Metal Rescue. But it is premixed and water based.
At $25 per gallon, I expected to more for the buck.
Where do you find this orlic stuff and what can I expect to pay?

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## Butch

You could custom fabricate a tank from some lumber to fit your frames and line it with visqueen or something suitable.


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## SirMike1983

jd56 said:


> Ok so I went out to buy some of this Orlic acid and I cant find at the Lowes or Home Depot.
> HDepot has a product called Metal Rescue. But it is premixed and water based.
> At $25 per gallon, I expected to more for the buck.
> Where do you find this orlic stuff and what can I expect to pay?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2




_Oxalic_ Acid is the product (they may not know if you ask for "orlic") and it usually comes in the form of "Deck Bleach" crystals. I cannot find them at the big box hardware, but rather get mine at a mom and pop type place locally. I get the Savogran brand Oxalic Acid in the 12 oz can. It usually costs like $7 here for 12 oz of crystals. That makes a lot of mixture once you dilute to the sort of strength we're talking for rust.


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## Buster1

Every Sherwin Williams I've ever been in carries the stuff.  Ask for wood bleach.  It comes in a plastic yogurt-like container and is a powder.

A word of caution guys.  Even at the low strength we use the stuff, please take precautions.  Google it and look for health related cautions.  It can be absorbed through the skin and may actually build up in your system causing nervous system issues.  Like most chemicals and paints and such...just be careful.


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## jd56

Oxalic Acid...got it now, guess it pays to comprehend what one writes.
Wood Bleach...interesting.


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## jd56

Finally got the stuff. Now to find a large enough pan to do the soaking of the frame.




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## rideahiggins

*Oxcilic acid*

Ace hardwares carry it.


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## bike

*I like*

FLITZ paste (non abrasive) good for metal and paint- not very agressive- start easy and get rougher as neccessary.

Also brass wool is much better than steel wool that leaves fibers and rusts- being softer than chrome it will not leave marks.

Some people also use crumpled aluminum foil + pblaster or your favorite de rust chemical with good results, evidently the pocks pick up some of the aluminum, making your chrome look better... at least for a while

for paint AVOID rubbing compound- it is made to cut- very abrasive- if you must use compound use POLISHING compound- this has abrasive

BE CAREFUL around pintsripes and darts- they can come off in one swipe...


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## eldoroddo

Anybody try dipping the frame in a plastic kiddie pool from Wal-Mart?
I'm not sure how many gallons it is, though, to figure out the water/oxalic acid ratio.


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## jd56

[Not sure what I did wrong or right but, I used the 2.5 to 1 ratio and soaked the forks on a purple ladies Strato Flite and it turned the paint a real dull almost milky faded color purple. Also soaked just the headtube and where tge tank was mounted it was pitted pretty bad. The good paint stayed bright and vibrant. Again Im not sure why the difference in the fading and dulling.
Not the result I was hoping for.
However the results on the normally thrown away rusted pitted fenders was amazing. 
But Im afraid to do the frame if its going to fade the paint.
















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## SirMike1983

2.5 parts water to 1 part oxalic crystal? That's a pretty strong mixture. Did you put the fork in first or last?


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## Buster1

Buster1 said:


> All the rust will come right off and it will not harm the chrome.  It may hurt paInt, so don't use it on those parts.




I've had mixed results on painted surfaces too.  I think it just depends on the condition of the paint and how it was applied years ago.


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## jd56

SirMike1983 said:


> 2.5 parts water to 1 part oxalic crystal? That's a pretty strong mixture. Did you put the fork in first or last?




I tried the fork first. Did the chrome fenders second and then did the headtube. The paint on the headtube stayed intact but the rusted area where the tank was mounted, the paint obviously was damaged...but, thats because of the rust.
The fenders were pitted pretty bad (hence the reason I used these as a test subject) as depicted in the picture but most of the rust was removed. As SireMike said the plating might lift off so I didn't want to spend too much time in the dip. I did see that the non-chromed underside rust seemed loosened but did not disappear after a pressure wash spray down. But, I did a second longer dip on the fenders.
I did forget that I left the one fender in overnight (it was a test fender anyway) and found that no damage occurred from the prolonged submersion.
It did bring the pitted area to the bare metal. But the rust stained chrome survived.
Here is a few pictures of the results.
First dipping

















I was so impressed with the results that I am venturing some dipping of the chainring, Hbar stem, and crank from my 49 Phantom. I sure hope the decission to use the 3 day old solution won't be as aggressive as the first day. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## SirMike1983

The mixture does weaken with use. I wonder if the fork bore the brunt of the strength- it sounded like a strong mixture that had not been used at all when the fork went in, but by the time the other stuff had been used, it had weakened some by interacting with the fork. Of course it could be the paint condition too, there are many variables at work sometimes. Every part is different in some ways, which is why I keep an eye on them. Have you tried polishing the paint back to shine?

Regardless, it looks like you had success with the chromed parts and some of the painted parts, though not the fork. It beats grinding away with the bronze wool and Ballistol or WD 40.


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## jd56

I agree with the paint quality therory. It is a multi produced purple Murray StratoFlite frame. Even though it is a girls model which would have been less abused, usually. 

Paint quality would make a difference, I suppose.


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## jd56

I was so impressed with the solution's reaction on chrome that I decided to try it on a pitted chrome murray rim. At least I thought it was pitted.
Here is what results I got.






Ooops thats a 26" specked trout I caught last night









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## silvertonguedevil

Just curious, but...

What does it matter if the solution gets inside the tubes/pipes of the frame as long as you rinse it out really well with water when you're done?


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## SirMike1983

silvertonguedevil said:


> Just curious, but...
> 
> What does it matter if the solution gets inside the tubes/pipes of the frame as long as you rinse it out really well with water when you're done?




When you rinse you need to get all that water out too. It's really hard to do that because moisture tends to accumulate in the frame even with the drain holes. Rust inside a frame can be very problematic because it can essentially make it unsafe without warning, as well as compromise threaded holes in the pipes themselves. You would need a way to quickly and effectively remove the moisture from inside the frame, then coat with something like framesaver to prevent rust from taking hold.


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## Andrew Gorman

Alcohol mixes well with water, and evaporates quickly if you are looking for a way to de-water a part.  Isopropyl from the dollar store is cheap, but already has some water in it. Shellac thinner is not quite as cheap, but might work better.  If you have a yellow residue left after an oxalic acid bath, hydrogen peroxide will take it off.


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## Rivnut

*Wd-40*

WD-40 was originally developed as a water displacement agent for nuclear weapons.  (W - water, D - displacement, 40 - 40th attempt before getting it right.)  If you soak/spray whatever you've just rinsed in water to remove the oxalic acid, then soaking/spraying with WD-40 will displace the water and leave a protective film.  There is some interesting reading on the internet about it.  On their own website, WD-40 now lists a complete line of "Bike" products.

Ed


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## wspeid

*Oxalic Acid treatment*

Before 


 


During - 1 Cup Acid/10 gallons of water for 5 hours



After


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## mfhemi1969

SirMike1983 said:


> I've done some experiments with Oxalic over the years. I've seen many posts on fora going back and forth over whether painted parts can go in the Oxalic solution. I've seen Evap-O-Rust in the stores, but have always passed on it because of the cost and because Oxalic seems to be a workable solution to rust.
> 
> Oxalic acid is not a cure-all. It does an outstanding job lifting rust. However, if you have rust underneath the plating, it will pull up the plating in sheets. It will do the same with paint, if rust is enough mixed into the paint. What happens is the acid dissolves the rust, but in so doing it frees whatever is bound in with the rust from adherence to the steel. So if you have a rust spot and the rust has spread underneath the surrounding plating, it will not only dissolve the rust in the pit itself, but it will leech under the plating, dissolve that rust, and thereby leave a big sheet of plating that will come clean off the steel. It will do the same with paint- it cleans the pit, but then if there is rust under the paint, it will dissolve that and pull up the paint bound in with the rust. However, if the paint has good adherence to the steel and it is clean underneath, then it will stay put. Left long enough, the acid can straight dissolve the actual paint as well, but that's a longer soak than should be going on.
> 
> When I do painted parts in Oxalic I check every few minutes (10-15) and rub with a clean cloth. If I see too many signs of paint coming up, I pull and wash down the part. If it looks like I'm getting rust and no paint, I return to the soak for another few minutes. I'm a bit more aggressive with plating, but not much. I check every 30 min or so on that. I might leave a part in a couple hours, at most. If the solution is more diluted, you may end up going longer.
> 
> The result is that you have to know your part in terms of age and condition. If you suspect it's a truly antique part with possible rust infiltration sideways from the pits, you may want to limit or skip the soak. If you do soak, test the part every few minutes with a cloth if it is painted- check how much color comes off on the cloth. With plating, look for signs it is bubbling underneath to make sure you don't "soak off" what's left of your plating.
> 
> Oxalic should not be used for silver-derivative plating/metal and should not be used with Cad plating. Cad plating is the most relevant issue to bikes, and if you soak your cad parts in there, it will pull the plating right off. You can actually see it coming off in the solution if you watch.
> 
> The front fender on the Columbia below was covered in surface rust. I did the soak and check, then rinsed, cleaned, and polished the part. The cloth showed a little blue, but nothing more than would be produced in a conservative polish job. The result is pretty clean.



Very valuable information. Nice post.Thanks


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## Muleman121

Here's a way to soak the entire frame in the oxalic acid bath. Use a bike box from the local shop; line it with plastic sheeting from Lows or Home Depot. Tape the corners of the box for extra strength 
 to hold the water back. I use a tablespoon/ gallon. Mix the acid/ water in a 5 gal bucket to keep the mix accurate. Here's the before and after pic's.


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## TieDye

Go buy a kids hard plastic swimming pool. They can be filled with a solution of whatever you use.


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## Muleman121

TieDye said:


> Go buy a kids hard plastic swimming pool. They can be filled with a solution of whatever you use.




A great ldea!


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## Boris

Muleman121 said:


> Here's a way to soak the entire frame in the oxalic acid bath. Use a bike box from the local shop; line it with plastic sheeting from Lows or Home Depot. Tape the corners of the box for extra strength
> to hold the water back. I use a tablespoon/ gallon. Mix the acid/ water in a 5 gal bucket to keep the mix accurate. Here's the before and after pic's.View attachment 706883 View attachment 706884 View attachment 706885 View attachment 706886



Great tip on soaking entire frame! Beats the heck out of having to store a kiddie pool if you're limited on storage space. I'd sure like to see how this bike looks completely assembled once you're all finished.


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## Muleman121

Boris said:


> Great tip on soaking entire frame! Beats the heck out of having to store a kiddie pool if you're limited on storage space. I'd sure like to see how this bike looks completely assembled once you're all finished.




Hope to finish it this week!


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