# Hoodwinked at auction



## thamilton5 (Jul 21, 2021)

EDITED FOR TRANSPARENCY - COPAKE HAS COMPLETELY TAKEN CARE OF THE ISSUE AND THEY HAVE ISSUED A FULL REFUND.

Hi guys, I just want to share my story of being misled when I recently bought a bike from auction. The bike is a 1939 Mercury Pacemaker s/n MD29285 that looked beautiful to me and worthy of bidding on, and I ultimately won for a price of 2K. The gentleman I am working with on shipping the bike informed that the tank and tube piece are fiberglass. Needless to say this is a big disappointment as I stretched myself a bit more than I would have liked to for the chance of owning this bike.

This is just a heads up to other buyers to be very careful when buying online without seeing or having the ability to verify the true condition of the bike.


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## thamilton5 (Jul 21, 2021)

Pics of the fiberglass parts.


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## redline1968 (Jul 21, 2021)

That sucks..


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## cyclingday (Jul 21, 2021)

As one of my homies growing up used to say.
“ You got burned!”


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## sworley (Jul 21, 2021)

That's a major bummer, I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully it's still worthwhile to you and a nice bike ultimately. 

This reminds me, to some extent, of a bike auction I participated in with my uncle a few years ago. I was busy that day with an obligation but my uncle (who knows nothing specific about old bikes) was bidding for me and sent me crummy cell phone photos that I was trying to best decipher. Well, I ended up buying about $2300 worth of junk. A lot of wrong parts, scrapped together stuff, repop, you name it. Ugh. I will not do that again.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 21, 2021)

Copake auction? I believe this should have been disclosed. I can see some repo pedals or other high wear parts e.g. grips and tires but when the money pieces are repo and especially fiberglass I think it should be noted. Had it been  listed properly the bike would have done good to get half that bid. V/r Shawn


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## cyclingday (Jul 21, 2021)




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## HEMI426 (Jul 21, 2021)

The saying (YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR) Dosen't always apply, here he paid for a steel tank and a pot metal head shroud and got fiberglass. Was this an auction or an online auction from an individual, if it was an auction house they might not have known the details (faults), but an online auction, who ever listed it probably knew and knew not to mention it to get a higher bid. My 2 cents. I think that bike is beautiful and still worth the money.


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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Jul 21, 2021)

Beautiful bike. Of course I would have been just as bummed. But the saying you didn't pay too much, just too soon may apply. A ways down the road you could probably get your money back the way the hobby is growing. Or upon finding a real tank and shroud, sell the nice re-pops, re-coup a bit of the loss and still have a great bike.


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Jul 21, 2021)

If it helps any, I need a tank & shroud for one of these bikes. They don't come up for sale often and VERY expensive when they do. Your bike is complete & looks good. Mine is a pile of parts waiting for the day I can get my hands on a tank & shroud of any kind.........

If memory serves, the last original tank that was posted for sale on the Cabe was 2016 or something. 😳


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## saladshooter (Jul 21, 2021)

Lots of shadiness going on with this year's auction it seems. This bike has very little chance to ever live up to it's price tag. Sorry for your loss of funds.

I would definitely expect more from an auction house that specializes in selling bikes.


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## sworley (Jul 21, 2021)

I agree that both @Frank and Pam Skid Kings and @Mr. Monkeyarms have great points about remaining positive about the whole deal. In all reality what does $2k get you anymore. Yes, that's a bit of money but this is also a very nice bike. Maybe you could part it out to recoup. 

Certainly a bummer but I wonder if you'd have any recourse anyway. Buyer beware.


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## cyclingday (Jul 21, 2021)

All kidding aside, you can’t be in the bike hobby for very long, without taking it in the shorts once in awhile.
We’ve all been there, done that.
I just chalk it up to the high cost of an education.
You just learned a very valuable lesson.
If a bike has been repainted, you have to ask yourself why?
Sometimes the answer is benign.
Sometimes the answer is, that all is not what it seems to be.
Unfortunately, more times than not, the second answer is the rule, and not the exception.


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## thamilton5 (Jul 21, 2021)

I got this from the most recent copake auction and to me it feels like whoever copake got the bike from was intentionally fraudulent here.


HEMI426 said:


> The saying (YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR) Dosen't always apply, here he paid for a steel tank and a pot metal head shroud and got fiberglass. Was this an auction or an online auction from an individual, if it was an auction house they might not have known the details (faults), but an online auction, who ever listed it probably knew and knew not to mention it to get a higher bid. My 2 cents. I think that bike is beautiful and still worth the money.


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## thamilton5 (Jul 21, 2021)

saladshooter said:


> Lots of shadiness going on with this year's auction it seems. This bike has very little chance to ever live up to it's price tag. Sorry for your loss of funds.
> 
> I would definitely expect more from an auction house that specializes in selling bikes.
> 
> View attachment 1449695



Thats the one.


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## HEMI426 (Jul 21, 2021)

I would think the auction house (Copake) should be aware of this because their reputation in the bike hobby is at stake, because now we all see a problem that will affect future listing and bidding. Maybe if its brought to their attention they could  refund your money and relist it in their fall live auction.


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## thamilton5 (Jul 21, 2021)

HEMI426 said:


> I would think the auction house (Copake) should be aware of this because their reputation in the bike hobby is at stake, because now we all see a problem that will affect future listing and bidding. Maybe if its brought to their attention they could  refund your money and relist it in their fall live auction.



I have contacted copake and they were not aware the bike has fiberglass parts. They asked me to send them pics and info, which I have now done, so now all I can do is wait and see how and if they want to rectify the situation.


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## HEMI426 (Jul 21, 2021)

I hope your satisfaction is granted, GOOD LUCK!!


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## catfish (Jul 21, 2021)

Freqman1 said:


> Copake auction? I believe this should have been disclosed. I can see some repo pedals or other high wear parts e.g. grips and tires but when the money pieces are repo and especially fiberglass I think it should be noted. Had it been  listed properly the bike would have done good to get half that bid. V/r Shawn



The auction house just uses the description they get from the consigner. They are actioners, not bicycle experts.


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## Kickstand3 (Jul 21, 2021)

catfish said:


> The auction house just uses the description they get from the consigner. They are actioners, not bicycle experts.



Sounds like a recipe for a disaster , even EBay sounds safer


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## bikebozo (Jul 21, 2021)

The Copake auction has been going a long time ,. They do not intentionally mislead or represent anything bogus . Mike and Seth will always do what is right . Good luck -another reason I like to see what I am bidding on ,also do not ever buy restored bikes


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## saladshooter (Jul 21, 2021)

Don't ask don't tell. Sounds like a good excuse for bad business.


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## Kickstand3 (Jul 21, 2021)

bikebozo said:


> The Copake auction has been going a long time ,. They do not intentionally mislead or represent anything bogus . Mike and Seth will always do what is right . Good luck -another reason I like to see what I am bidding on ,also do not ever buy restored bikes



So maybe they should buy it back


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## bikebozo (Jul 21, 2021)

I think if you read there rules , they are not responcible , they will do whatever they can ,. There were plenty of people at the auction,  ,someone should have asked , about the fiberglass , and posted it here . Lots of stuff gets passed through auctions,


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## bikebozo (Jul 21, 2021)

It says in section 2 of the auction menu , how it is handled , also if you look to the photo displayed of the head , it is clearly seen that it does not fit correct , it looks fiberglass in the photo


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## Phallon1 (Jul 21, 2021)

We weren't aware the tank wasn't correct and offered the buyer a full refund if he returned it or partial if he wanted to keep it, we weren't trying to "hoodwink" anybody, this came from a large collection of bicycles we got and had no idea the tank wasn't correct.


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## srfndoc (Jul 21, 2021)

Well done guys.  Glad to see there is still some integrity in business.


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## JOEL (Jul 21, 2021)

Copake always has some bikes that are sketchy. If you are bidding online, always best to arrange for someone who is present to look it over for you.


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## thamilton5 (Jul 21, 2021)

Copake has gone above and beyond to take care of this and I want to thank them here for being honest and having integrity to get this resolved when I quite honestly did not expect it and didnt push for it. Thank you copake!


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## locomotion (Jul 21, 2021)

catfish said:


> The auction house just uses the description they get from the consigner. They are actioners, not bicycle experts.




Really? They are not bicycle experts?

Quoting from their website : https://www.copakeauction.com/bicycles-splash/bicycles/
"We’ve come a long way since our first bicycle auction back in 1991. We have never forgotten that it is you THE COLLECTOR that drives the market. We have enjoyed bringing you some of the rarest and most desirable bicycles and related items over these many years. Michael Fallon’s passion for bicycles has propelled the Copake Auction to being one of the most popular and well respected antique bicycle auctions in the world.
In addition to the auction itself we also host the pre-sale SWAP MEET right on the property in our spacious country fields. The swap meet has a sort of “Fair” quality to it and is a priority pit stop for all bicycle enthusiasts. We see people return year after year from every corner of the world for a day of shared admiration, deal hunting and riding stories, and of course Shopping and Trading! These two days are more than just about selling, we try to make it a fun and informative event with food, special presentations and a 10 mile ride through beautiful Columbia County New York on our bicycles!"

If that doesn't add up to being "experts", I don't know what "expert" means!

BTW, who does the pre-auction "estimates" for them?

Here is a very interesting read about auction law : https://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles/law-auctions


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## kccomet (Jul 21, 2021)

glad it worked out for you, props to copake. I bought a couple bikes this year , I made two calls to copake and was amazed they answered the phone. in this day of recordings, emails, and no call backs, it was refreshing. I talked to Seth, he answered any and all questions I had. seemed to be in no hurry, we shot the breeze for awhile, this was the week of the auction


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## Mr. Monkeyarms (Jul 21, 2021)

I can certainly see where stuff may not be mentioned from the seller or get caught by Copake. Pretty sure they don't have time to disassemble/inspect suspicious items and rely on the sellers to provide accurate info. I'm impressed they are willing to make good on stuff that sneaks by. Good on you @Phallon1 for doing the right thing. Probably why you've been at this a while and Premier Swap/Auctioneer. 

I can guarantee this isn't the first time a deal went sideways on a bicycle at auction. Always a good indicator of character to make things right when things don't go as expected in my opinion.

Hope all are happy in the end! 😉


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## Phallon1 (Jul 21, 2021)

thamilton5 said:


> Copake has gone above and beyond to take care of this and I want to thank them here for being honest and having integrity to get this resolved when I quite honestly did not expect it and didnt push for it. Thank you copake!



You were a gentleman about it and I appreciate it, look forward to doing more business.


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## HEMI426 (Jul 21, 2021)

Your resolution to this situation makes me and I'm sure many others think highly of your commitment to doing the right thing and want to attend your fall event. We thank you.


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## bleedingfingers (Jul 21, 2021)

Description should have been more accurate leaving stuff out is the same as lying in my book .
Can't  really blame the auction house though unless they wrote it.
Very good of them though to except some of the  responsibility and fix it .


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## kreika (Jul 21, 2021)

I’m a Mercury collector. The front fender looks short to me at the front. Might be just the pic. It appears to have pinched fenders tips at the lower bottom part. Not correct for that frame and crank. Missing correct rear reflector. Wrong saddle. Glad you got out of that one and got a refund! If you ever need info about these style bikes feel free to reach out. Always glad to help.


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## thamilton5 (Jul 21, 2021)

Thanks kreika, much appreciated.


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## mrg (Jul 21, 2021)

bikebozo said:


> It says in section 2 of the auction menu , how it is handled , also if you look to the photo displayed of the head , it is clearly seen that it does not fit correct , it looks fiberglass in the photo



This would be tuff one from a picture sense a lot of the OG shrouds are warped or broken ( pot medal casting ) and don't fit properly anymore, at least most I've had. Glad everything worked, did you keep it with a partial refund or ship the whole thing back?


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## thamilton5 (Jul 22, 2021)

Shipped it back and was fully refunded.


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## New Mexico Brant (Jul 22, 2021)

I am glad you were made whole again.  It is impossible to expect an auction company to find every defect for every lot, especially in a 600+ lot sale.  It is partially the responsibility of buyers to ask questions and request full condition reports for items they are interested in purchasing.  Reputable companies will gladly comply with these requests.  The fact the Copake guys made you whole shows they are a reputable firm and want to do right by the bicycle collecting community.


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## Frank and Pam Skid Kings (Jul 24, 2021)

Good for Copake. Glad there are still company's that care about what they do. And good for  thamilton5 for keeping things cool. Now...is everyone saving a pic of this bike. Cause next person that buys it from whatever sales source it lands on...it's on you. Copake stepped up, don't think Ebay or others will.


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## Rusty McNickel (Jul 24, 2021)

locomotion said:


> Really? They are not bicycle experts?
> 
> Quoting from their website : https://www.copakeauction.com/bicycles-splash/bicycles/
> "We’ve come a long way since our first bicycle auction back in 1991. We have never forgotten that it is you THE COLLECTOR that drives the market. We have enjoyed bringing you some of the rarest and most desirable bicycles and related items over these many years. Michael Fallon’s passion for bicycles has propelled the Copake Auction to being one of the most popular and well respected antique bicycle auctions in the world.
> ...



A passion for antique bicycles does not automatically qualify one as a technical expert. They are first auctioneers. I have seen plenty of incorrect TOC bicycle information of Copake descriptions historically but never felt it was intentionally misrepresented. If you consider the wide range of time period in the bicycles that comes their way it would take a panel of experts to scrutinize every nuance which may or may not be so obvious to others. But then, is that their responsibility?

As for the estimates, as far as I'm concerned, they mean nothing and I pay them no mind. One should be knowledgable and therefore content on what they're bidding, win or lose.


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## catfish (Jul 24, 2021)

mrkmcdonnell said:


> A passion for antique bicycles does not automatically qualify one as a technical expert. They are first auctioneers. I have seen plenty of incorrect TOC bicycle information of Copake descriptions historically but never felt it was intentionally misrepresented. If you consider the wide range of time period in the bicycles that comes their way it would take a panel of experts to scrutinize every nuance which may or may not be so obvious to others. But then, is that their responsibility?
> 
> As for the estimates, as far as I'm concerned, they mean nothing and I pay them no mind. One should be knowledgable and therefore content on what they're bidding, win or lose.




Well said.


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## mr.cycleplane (Jul 24, 2021)

Let's leave this thread on a happy note. Instead of running Copake Auction thru the wringer for what is obviously an 'oversight' let's give them credit where it is due. And they made things right and gave a refund. Copake Auction runs a straight up auction and have been for many years. One auction a year is dedicated to the bike collecting hobby. Looking at the subject bike-beautiful and fully restored-can you see why they wouldn't dismantle the bike to see if in fact the tank was tin or fiberglass? The answer is simple-they are not going to unscrew and chip the paint just to find this fact out. They did the best they could with information passed to them. When new information was discovered-they immediately gave a refund as their reputation is on the line and bad news travels fast-especially here on the CABE -the pulse of the hobby! Copake Auction has made good with the buyer and I am sure the bike will find a new owner and they will be just delighted with it! Lighten up everyone-its only a hobby.


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## catfish (Jul 24, 2021)

mr.cycleplane said:


> Let's leave this thread on a happy note. Instead of running Copake Auction thru the wringer for what is obviously an 'oversight' let's give them credit where it is due. And they made things right and gave a refund. Copake Auction runs a straight up auction and have been for many years. One auction a year is dedicated to the bike collecting hobby. Looking at the subject bike-beautiful and fully restored-can you see why they wouldn't dismantle the bike to see if in fact the tank was tin or fiberglass? The answer is simple-they are not going to unscrew and chip the paint just to find this fact out. They did the best they could with information passed to them. When new information was discovered-they immediately gave a refund as their reputation is on the line and bad news travels fast-especially here on the CABE -the pulse of the hobby! Copake Auction has made good with the buyer and I am sure the bike will find a new owner and they will be just delighted with it! Lighten up everyone-its only a hobby.




I second


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## Thads Skunk Works (Jul 24, 2021)

An original tank & shroud for that bike if you find them will cost more than you just paid for the bike. I'd be happy to buy the tank & shroud from you. The only original tank I've come across went for 1200 at ML several years ago & it was pitted & missing internal parts. You might take a magnet with you to the next auction. Good luck


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## Rusty McNickel (Jul 24, 2021)

Thads Skunk Works said:


> An original tank & shroud for that bike if you find them will cost more than you just paid for the bike. I'd be happy to buy the tank & shroud from you. The only original tank I've come across went for 1200 at ML several years ago & it was pitted & missing internal parts. You might take a magnet with you to the next auction. Good luck



It was an internet auction


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## schwinnbikebobb (Jul 24, 2021)

And I believe he already returned the bike.


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