# Poor braking with Morrow prewar hub



## srfndoc

I just rebuilt a prewar Morrow hub (dated F4) and although it works ok, the braking power is less than desired (requires way too much force to get it to brake).  What parts/procedures should I be looking at to remedy this.  Here is the hub when I first broke it down:








I replaced all three bearings as they were pretty worn but the rest of the parts looked good so I thru it back together.  Does anything stand out here?


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## Andrew Gorman

No coaster brake works very well at all. In city traffic, get used to dropping you feet and skidding on shoe leather.


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## Freqman1

Two things I would look at are brake shoes and cone adjustment. Seems to me the Morrow is a little more sensitive to cone adjustment than a ND. V/r Shawn


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## Balloonoob

I have one of these I need to rebuild as well. Are the 8 pieces in the top picture all there is to it? I think that the grooves on the brake sleeve (in the very bottom left) are worn down to smooth. I have heard that you can basically saw new grooves sometimes but I'm guessing it might be easier and less headaches to replace it. Good luck. Out of curiosity (since I am having this problem) are you noticing unusual play between braking and the gear catching to drive forward? Perhaps my issue is cone adjustment related.


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## Gordon

According to the book, a worn brake cylinder is usually the culprit of poor braking. Whenever I rebuild a coaster brake hub I remove any glaze in the hub shell by using a brake cylinder hone in my drill. It often makes a huge difference. If you don't have a hone, simply using emery paper or fine sandpaper by hand will work.


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## fattyre

Ha @Gordon !   Just typed the same thing!

    Check that your braking surfaces aren’t burnished.  Especially the hub shell.    Wire wheel or steel wool the hub shell real well.    And make sure those shoes shine!

Overall I get good consistent braking performance from Morrow hubs, but some of mine do have a bit less power than others.   I suspect the shoes are worn therefore diminishing power.


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## fattyre

@Balloonoob

If parts 113 & 114 have chipped teeth, that can cause engagement problems.  I’ve also seen when part #110 has broken in two and this leads to a funny feeling between braking and pedaling.


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## srfndoc

Thanks everyone for the feedback.  I did check the cone adjustment and it was still within limits but the outer bound (1/32").  There were no worn teeth and the two parts engaged normally.  I did use some wet/dry 800 grit sandpaper to rough up the braking surface/hub surface but that didn't seem to help much.

How do you tell if you have a worn brake sleeve?  I know the later hubs have ribs in the braking surface and some even cut them in to simulate the later brake sleeves (As Balloonoob mentioned).  Anyone know where to get a new brake sleeve?  Here's a pic of the internals when I pulled it out so you can get a good look at the sleeve:






Thanks


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## bikecrazy

When I first started rebuilding coaster brake hubs, I used bearing grease throughout. Not happy with the braking, I did some research. The solution for me was to use bearing grease on the bearings, and motor oil on the braking surfaces. The result was much better braking performance.


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## srfndoc

bikecrazy said:


> When I first started rebuilding coaster brake hubs, I used bearing grease throughout. Not happy with the braking, I did some research. The solution for me was to use bearing grease on the bearings, and motor oil on the braking surfaces. The result was much better braking performance.



Same here... only bearings get grease and the rest get a 30Wt. oil.  I've done many ND hubs this way and always get good stopping power with minimal pressure needed.  That's the issue here... its stops but requires way too much pressure.


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## Balloonoob

Here are some threads i have squirreled away in preparation of a rebuild. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/morrow-hub-rebuild-help.149235/#post-1207171. This one may be even more helpful. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/morrow-hubs.70058/page-3#post-1207290


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## Balloonoob

I'm just going to piggyback on this thread. I got my morrow hub pulled apart today. I wanted to leave the brake arm / dust cap on but had to undo this side first instead due to poor tools and I didn't want to strip the axle threads from over gripping/clamping.  All of the parts look pretty good to me.  Seems like good news. I think that the brake sleeve would not have had grooves/ribs as this is a 37 hub. I'm not expecting great breaking after the rebuild. Hopefully a little better though. Is the adjusting cone (part 108) supposed to be within 1/32" of something? If so with what? When someone says worn brake shoes what part number are they referring to? Part 112b the brake sleeve? If anyone sees anything wrong please let me know. I will try my best to put it together in the next few days. There was over 180 degrees between braking and drive engagement so I'm hoping that properly adjusting the adjusting cone will address this issue. My Dayton looks really crappy with a modern wheel and whitewall tire LOL.


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## Balloonoob

Pics


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## srfndoc

If all the parts look good I would scuff up the brake sleeve and inside of the hub (I used steel wool) and then throw it back together.  The critical measurement is the 1/16" - 132" as pictured here:



My hub measured right at 1/32" so I left it but braking requires what I consider a lot of force so I'm going to try adjusting that distance smaller to see if it helps.  My hub was a 36 so also did not have the later grooved brake sleeve which I think helps with braking force quite a bit.


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## tryder

srfndoc said:


> Thanks everyone for the feedback.  I did check the cone adjustment and it was still within limits but the outer bound (1/32").  There were no worn teeth and the two parts engaged normally.  I did use some wet/dry 800 grit sandpaper to rough up the braking surface/hub surface but that didn't seem to help much.
> 
> How do you tell if you have a worn brake sleeve?  I know the later hubs have ribs in the braking surface and some even cut them in to simulate the later brake sleeves (As Balloonoob mentioned).  Anyone know where to get a new brake sleeve?  Here's a pic of the internals when I pulled it out so you can get a good look at the sleeve:
> 
> View attachment 1337005View attachment 1337011
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



Your brake shoes are toast. Get new ones.  You will be very happy.
@fat tire trader


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## srfndoc

tryder said:


> Your brake shoes are toast. Get new ones.  You will be very happy.
> @fat tire trader



How can you tell they are toast?  I asked a few people and nobody could really say what to look for.  The thickness seems about the same as a new set.

Thanks


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## tryder

srfndoc said:


> How can you tell they are toast?  I asked a few people and nobody could really say what to look for.  The thickness seems about the same as a new set.
> 
> Thanks



They should have grooves on them.


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## srfndoc

tryder said:


> They should have grooves on them.



Actually the early brake sleeves didn't have grooves, that was a later design change.  Not sure when it happened but this was out of a F4 dated hub so 1936.


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## tryder

srfndoc said:


> Actually the early brake sleeves didn't have grooves, that was a later design change.  Not sure when it happened but this was out of a F4 dated hub so 1936.



The Morrow on my bike that I have been riding down Mt. Tam since the seventies is a blackout wartime one.  
It has the shoes with the grooves.
Its been my experience that its time to replace the shoes once the grooves are worn off.
If you think yours are thick enough then perhaps its something else.


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## Kickstand3

Here’s your problem


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## Balloonoob

Today I got my morrow hub greased and oiled and reassembled. The braking may have improved slightly but the play between braking and drive engagement was decreased greatly from 180 degrees or more down to less than 45 degrees. But now when the bike is upside down and I turn the pedals I Hear a sound like tire rub which I checked and don't see the tire rubbing on anything. It's not noticeable when riding. Perhaps something is too tight. I'll have to mess with it later. I really wish I could have disassembled from the brake arm side vs the sprocket side as this would have made assembly make more sense as shown in the directions in post 14.  I kinda had to do it the opposite way.


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## catfish

I know the schwinn guys like these, but I have never been a fan. Too many parts... The New Departure Model D is a lot easier to work on.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

If you don’t have that spring compressed as far as you can get it then you will have problems. That’s why you take it apart from the drive side... also, find one with the groves or make your own with the one you have. And don’t don’t don’t put grease on the brake pads.. not even a little. Not even a finger print...


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## srfndoc

tryder said:


> The Morrow on my bike that I have been riding down Mt. Tam since the seventies is a blackout wartime one.
> It has the shoes with the grooves.
> Its been my experience that its time to replace the shoes once the grooves are worn off.
> If you think yours are thick enough then perhaps its something else.



They even talk about locating the new type multi-grooved brake shoe here.  They also mention you can cut 4 grooves on each side on older brake shoes that are smooth:







I'm going to pull apart my hub and do this to see how much it improves the braking.


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## KevinsBikes

I have assembled probably 20 of these by hand, all the loose pieces.  It took some practice and I made lots of mistakes, but for stopping I have just had to keep swapping the center core until one stopped better.  I know that’s not super helpful, but I think Scott had NOS ones for sale.  I generally just buy another hub and swap internals as needed, and save the extra spare parts.


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## Balloonoob

Obi-Wan Schwinnobi said:


> If you don’t have that spring compressed as far as you can get it then you will have problems. That’s why you take it apart from the drive side... also, find one with the groves or make your own with the one you have. And don’t don’t don’t put grease on the brake pads.. not even a little. Not even a finger print...



@Obi-Wan Schwinnobi @srfndoc @tripple3 @cyclingday I got the hub disassembled from the drive side. I need help with cone adjustment as I cannot get the spring compressed enough. When I push on the two washer looking bits it compresses but when I try to spin the whole enchalada down it only goes down so far and stops. Did I run out of threads on the axle?


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Balloonoob said:


> @Obi-Wan Schwinnobi @srfndoc @tripple3 @cyclingday I got the hub disassembled from the drive side. I need help with cone adjustment as I cannot get the spring compressed enough. When I push on the two washer looking bits it compresses but when I try to spin the whole enchalada down it only goes down so far and stops. Did I run out of threads on the axle?
> 
> View attachment 1391833
> 
> View attachment 1391834



I don’t know what you got going on there, I’ve never needed vice grips or a vice to adjust the spring... should  seriously be able to do all that in your hand. Are the threads screwed up?


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Balloonoob said:


> @Obi-Wan Schwinnobi @srfndoc @tripple3 @cyclingday I got the hub disassembled from the drive side. I need help with cone adjustment as I cannot get the spring compressed enough. When I push on the two washer looking bits it compresses but when I try to spin the whole enchalada down it only goes down so far and stops. Did I run out of threads on the axle?
> 
> View attachment 1391833
> 
> View attachment 1391834



Also easier to mess with when you remove the dust cap etc..


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## Balloonoob

I don't think the threads are screwed up. Every part on this hub looks to be in good shape. I'm sure my methods are a bit strange. I'm really only using the vice to hold it up by the axle nut.


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## Balloonoob

I'm using the vice grips to tighten down part 120 in order to compress the compression spring and it hits a point where it no longer spins and I don't want to force it.


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## Balloonoob

I wonder if I am spinning 120 in the wrong direction LOL


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## saladshooter

All of this is why I give the Morrow hub to the guy that swaps in the ND model D for me on my wheelsets.


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## Balloonoob

I talked to an old dude at the local bike shop today. He says "oh yeah Morrow hubs are the best" LOL. I verified I am turning it in the right direction to compress the spring.  It's just not compressing enough I'm sure.


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## saladshooter

I hear they are pretty good if you get em dialed in. Just difficult to dial in..


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Balloonoob said:


> I wonder if I am spinning 120 in the wrong direction LOL
> 
> View attachment 1391848



You have to screw the axel through both parts .. compress it all together and then screw the axel in to hold it together


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## Autocycleplane

Balloonoob said:


> I talked to an old dude at the local bike shop today. He says "oh yeah Morrow hubs are the best" LOL. I verified I am turning it in the right direction to compress the spring.  It's just not compressing enough I'm sure.



If you have an original axle I believe one side has more threads than the other, so you may be bottoming out if you had it all apart and are putting it together with the axle direction switched. 

These hubs work very well, they just have tons of places to wear that start to add up and you have to throw a bunch of dough at them to correct. There is no way I could safely ride a ND on all of these hills around here, but it is a perfectly fine flatland coaster. 

I should just make a youtube video about these hubs and how to fix/assemble them correctly. Feel free to PM me - happy to help.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Here


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## Autocycleplane

And to the OP: your brake shoe does not look that worn to me. You are correct that they didn't start coming with the grooves until sometime around 1940/K production. Try adding grooves to yours, they don't need to be precise. Mine work great with grease, I only use oil on the occasional ND that passes through.


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## Autocycleplane

My post from another thread, since the search function is pretty worthless at the moment:

Here are my tips for engagement degree issues:

1. As mentioned in the other thread and the how-to above make sure the bushing/cone assembly is installed on the axle correctly. You only have 2 (180 degrees) ways to put them together, just use whichever combo results in those 2 parts fitting together the tightest when assembled on the axle. I've found that should give the proper clearance shown above without the need to measure. After you do it once correctly you get the hang of it.

1a. If you have everything cleaned up and nothing is broken you might as well quickly (see axle tip below) reassemble without grease (light oil OK) and check your drive/brake engagement angle. If acceptable then after step 2 it's usually fine to just reassemble with grease and new ball bearings in the bearing retainers and party on.

2. Inspect your clutch rings - are the knurls on the outside worn down? If so replace.

3. Inspect your expanders on either end of the brake sleeve. Are the "V" shaped areas where the surfaces mate to the sleeve or rings worn/grooved? If so replace.

4. Lastly inspect the brake sleeve, the big money item. Check the thickness of the brass shoe material against a NOS unit if possible or check interwebs for photos to compare. Check the inside areas where the expanders sit and work. I can get pretty good use out of these units as long as they don't overheat and crack in two, but super thin brass shoe material is obviously gonna cause some issues.

5. I've seen a few really worn hub shells. If a fresh sleeve, expanders, and clutch rings with proper assembly fixes some but not all of the problem then your shell is likely a bit toasty.

The point of all of this being that there are a bunch of places for wear that can all add up to a ton of pedal throw between go and no-go. Sometimes you have to replace more than one part to get things working better, or even all of it (brake sleeve, expanders, and clutch rings) to make it like new again.

Couple of other tips:

- Fresh ball bearings make a huge difference in ride quality. Clean up and reuse the old retainers, pop those new 1/4" balls in and feel the magic.

- Life is too short to fight a crappy axle more than once on disassembly. If the threads are shot or it is at all bent then just replace it. Better yet, buy 3 or 4 at a time so you can always use a fresh one whenever needed.

- Sometimes even NOS retarder washers and axle bushings don't really slide together that well and can bind a bit causing a "pop" between forward pedaling and braking. I like to file/emory the flats of the bushing just a bit to remove some of the machining ridges as well as any sharp edges of the washer to make sure they slide more smoothly. The retarder spring does wear out, if yours feels flimsy then replace.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

Also, make sure these are not worn down to nothing.


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## Balloonoob

Thanks @Autocycleplane and @Obi-Wan Schwinnobi. I think I got this. We'll see once I go to ride it. But something looks a bit off now. My axle length. LOL.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

I have no play in my hub and it spins forever and ever and ever and ever... engagement is spot on and don’t have any of the issues others mention. Make sure your bits are golden and you won’t have any problems. Once you get it, these hubs are easy peasy... I tore the one I used to show you down and back up in less then 10 min. Probably 6 honestly. All by hand no special tools required!


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## Balloonoob

Well I sure appreciate the help from you both. I'll update the thread once I try it out. I think I have part 120 and 114 compressing the spring to the point where these two parts are touching. Fingers crossed.


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## Balloonoob

I finally got the Morrow hub working.  There was once or twice on the shakedown ride that it took a half rotation or more to engage braking but it pretty consistently engaged the brake right away as normal. Sure I won't be laying any skids down any time soon......but I am thrilled and hopeful that the wheel will roll and brake as needed for a good many rides.


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## Jive Turkey

I've got one of these torn apart right now from a '39 DX I found on Craigslist a couple of weeks ago.........this thread is scaring the heck out of me.


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## 1936PEDALER

Are there any new old stock brake sleeves out there?


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## srfndoc

Tough to come buy or expensive ($50).  I need one as well but have not located one at a decent price.


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## Balloonoob

srfndoc said:


> Tough to come buy or expensive ($50).  I need one as well but have not located one at a decent price.



Wow - glad I did not need one. All the more reason to pick up random wheels and parts at swap meets. You are gonna need hub parts at some point.


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## Bryan Akens

Your  brake  sleeve  is  completely  worn  out....and  can  make  for  some  scary  moments  if  You  ride  this  in  traffic.....I  would  suggest  replacing  it.....Im  sure  someone  on  here  would  have  one  for  You.....Good  Luck!!


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## FastEddie

Kickstand3 said:


> Here’s your problem
> 
> View attachment 1352295



So what is it?


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## mr.cycleplane

there is a part-referenced but not shown in the parts list-it is the 127b lost motion washer. this lost motion washer is used as a 'quick dirty fix' when there is excessive wear throughout the morrow. sometimes its the worn shoes or worn/polished clutch pieces or the two pieces in the brake shoe sleeve are worn and no matter how hard you stomp on the brakes-the bike will not stop(or stops poorly). sometimes the hub has excessive wear because of high mileage and the hub may be polished like a mirror inside! the 'lost motion' is when you go from forward to braking and then go back to forward and the travel is like a half a revolution(or greater) of the crank arms. the lost motion washer is made of copper and drops into the empty hub-the hub is then assembled as usual. the soft copper washer sits in the area that the clutch pieces grab-which have thru time-polished that lip inside the hub(sometimes felt as a temporary 'slip'). the washer serves two purposes-give the clutch something to grab and also 'eat up some distance' so as to engage the brakes sooner. this removes about half the 'lost motion' and gives the rider basically a false sense of 'its fixed'(cuts down on the 'travel of the crank')-works for a while but on really worn hubs you need to do more-reach in the pocket for some jingle. i have used these lost motion washers before with limited success on mildly worn hubs and probably just got lucky.


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## srfndoc

Finally got around to honing the inside of the shell (to remove the glazing) and cutting some grooves in the brake sleeve (mine was an early example with no grooves) and braking is now about 50% better.


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## mr.cycleplane

On EBAY there is a seller 'oldbikeguy' that sells these 127b spacers for the Morrow hub. I just checked and this seller doesn't have any listed but I am sure he would list some if you asked. They were very reasonable-like under $10 for two of them. Does anybody know if he is on the C.A.B.E.?


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## buickmike

Aren't some of the parts interchangeable with Bendix?


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## mr.cycleplane

buickmike said:


> Aren't some of the parts interchangeable with Bendix?



well not really. the axel-especially the early bb1 axel (later it was threaded the full length) and the axel and lock nuts-that's about it.


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## buickmike

I was thinking the bearing holding the driver used a adjustment   cone       that fit both early Bendix and morrow. I too was trying to restore OG wheel set for 37motorbike. Gonna keep on trying. I picked up a set of those copper rings+ a replacement brake sleeve - but I have another hub.


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## mr.cycleplane

i have seen that bendix adjustment cone and bearing(?)used on a morrow but its not for me! you can get those morrow cones n.o.s. from 'bicyclebones' on ebay and he is here on the c.a.b.e. with same name/avatar.


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## vincev

I dont like or use grease on hubs,only the bearings.Oil is the best


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## Kickstand3

mr.cycleplane said:


> there is a part-referenced but not shown in the parts list-it is the 127b lost motion washer. this lost motion washer is used as a 'quick dirty fix' when there is excessive wear throughout the morrow. sometimes its the worn shoes or worn/polished clutch pieces or the two pieces in the brake shoe sleeve are worn and no matter how hard you stomp on the brakes-the bike will not stop(or stops poorly). sometimes the hub has excessive wear because of high mileage and the hub may be polished like a mirror inside! the 'lost motion' is when you go from forward to braking and then go back to forward and the travel is like a half a revolution(or greater) of the crank arms. the lost motion washer is made of copper and drops into the empty hub-the hub is then assembled as usual. the soft copper washer sits in the area that the clutch pieces grab-which have thru time-polished that lip inside the hub(sometimes felt as a temporary 'slip'). the washer serves two purposes-give the clutch something to grab and also 'eat up some distance' so as to engage the brakes sooner. this removes about half the 'lost motion' and gives the rider basically a false sense of 'its fixed'(cuts down on the 'travel of the crank')-works for a while but on really worn hubs you need to do more-reach in the pocket for some jingle. i have used these lost motion washers before with limited success on mildly worn hubs and probably just got



Good information! I believe I’ll try it soon.


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## Kickstand3

Kickstand3 said:


> Good information! I believe I’ll try it soon.



Ok @mr.cycleplane im Going to give it hell on this ride just cause I love it and it fits me like a glove . And I believe morrow makes a better roller than ND . These hubs roll for ever just don’t stop as well as ND . But I just want to get rolling, Just ware a better pair off shoes


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## mr.cycleplane

awesome! there is another thing i am an advocate for...a fresh diamond chain like you have on this bike! be it a 1/2" or skip tooth-makes the ride smooth-beautiful chains.


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## Kickstand3

Kickstand3 said:


> Ok @mr.cycleplane im Going to give it hell on this ride just cause I love it and it fits me like a glove . And I believe morrow makes a better roller than ND . These hubs roll for ever just don’t stop as well as ND . But I just want to get rolling, Just ware a better pair off shoes
> 
> View attachment 1537966


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## Kickstand3

vincev said:


> I dont like or use grease on hubs,only the bearings.Oil is the best



100 % correct.


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## frampton

q


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## Kickstand3

I want to thank @mr.cycleplane for posting this lost motion washer theory . This ride is proof it works after 12 miles so far . Your  up @tripple3


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