# Iver Johnson with 2 serial #s, need help!



## 10~18kustoms (Sep 10, 2012)

I picked up this old Iver Johnson about a year back.  Even though it was one of the smaller "20 it was still a truss bike, and it also had a ND model DD 2 speed on it so it got my interest.  When I got it home and found the S#174069 on the bottom bracket and I figured it was probably some where in the 1909 - 1913 range from what I could tell from reading the Solid & Stolid thread and compairing it to at all the catalogs from that era I could find.  I knew the 26" wheels w/ the DD hub were probably added later and the bars, stem and grips too.  














It then went in the barn and on the back burner until a few weeks ago when I pulled it out and stripped it down for a restore.  Anyway, now the frame just back from media blasting, and what do I find???  Another crudely stamped S# on the seat tube that looks like 442458.  





This has my head spinning, whats up with this.  I know the 1914ish and later IJ's had the S# on the seat tube and the 442458 would probably put it some where in the mid 20's.  Has anyone ever seen this before?  2 serial numbers?  Or have any ideas?  Don't really matter as I am restoring it as a rider with modern 29 wheels so it won't be 100% correct either way but I would like to know if it's a 10' era bike or a 20's.  Any Help! Thanks!


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## Iverider (Sep 11, 2012)

I would trust the seat tube serial number me thinks. But then again...who knows! Isn't the star chainring later?


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## DonChristie (Sep 11, 2012)

Ya I am with the Kraut on this one. Seat post was the spot. Often times, ppl would put a separate serial number for added safety or a number for the Police registration. Also, I dont think this type of frame was available in the teens.


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## Iverider (Sep 11, 2012)

http://www.oldbike.eu/iverjohnson/?page_id=51

Has some information on Iver Johnson Truss Bridge Frames.

There's a scan of a 1909 brochure that shows the truss frame. It also has both chainrings depicted. Not sure what to make of that. It seems that Iver Johnson often reused print blocks in their brochures. 

Some other Ivers can be found here, but I don't know the serial numbers. Whoever has the site has listed what they thought the approximate dates of manufacture are.

http://luxlow.com/category/bicycles/llwoodwheel/page/2/


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## DonChristie (Sep 11, 2012)

Those are 2 different type truss frames. The one Kraut linked is the "Trust the Truss" type of frame. The one posted is different where the bar at the seat post sits lower. It is depicted on the back of this literature. Unfortunately, not dated but assumed to be late 20s/early 30s. 
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?19645-Iver-Johnson-Booklet-pics&highlight=


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## Iverider (Sep 11, 2012)

I thought that was due to the size of the frame (being a smaller frame) 

It'd be nice if we could organize this information!


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## 10~18kustoms (Sep 11, 2012)

Now you see why my head is spinning.  I have seen this style truss frame as far back as the '09 catalog looks like it could be the model 990 or 1290. Also the star sprocket is shown in the 1910 and 1912 catalogs along with the more common early snowflake style.  At first I was thinking the star sprocket may have just been used on the smaller frames like the 20" and the 18" boy scout as well as the girls bikes, in the early days but I have seen them on the larger frames too (model 987).  The sprocket for this bike is a smaller 24 tooth, I also have a 26 in the same star style.  So no rhyme or reason.  Plus each of the serial numbers would appear to be in the correct location for their sequence per Bill Smith of the Wheelman who stated that the early serial numbers were located on the bottom crank and the later on the seat post tube.  Still very confused, guess I'm gona start trying to find some I-J catalogs from the 20s to compair to and see what that brings.


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## Iverider (Sep 11, 2012)

I have a couple catalogs I need to scan and post to the Iver Johnson Solid and Stolid thread for comparison/research purposes.


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## 10~18kustoms (Sep 11, 2012)

schwinndoggy said:


> Those are 2 different type truss frames. The one Kraut linked is the "Trust the Truss" type of frame. The one posted is different where the bar at the seat post sits lower. It is depicted on the back of this literature. Unfortunately, not dated but assumed to be late 20s/early 30s.
> http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?19645-Iver-Johnson-Booklet-pics&highlight=




Yes there appeared to be two style truss frames that were offered  at the same time, the one with the arched bar that attaches directly to the top bar and the one that has the spacer between them.  I also assumed that it was just due to the height of the frame, but in the literature above they are listed as two seperate models the 87 and 88 and both offered in various sizes.  Yea, wish it was dated.


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## tailhole (Sep 11, 2012)

*My Iver has 2 serial numbers too*

Hi, I have the same situation on my Iver.  I contacted Bill Smith as well and here is what he said...


_Hi Scott,

The number you gave me is for a 1892 Lovell Diamond bicycle. This frame style came out in 1915 as a Truss Bridge Roadster and was made till the end in 1941. In 1913 / 14 they relocated the serial numbers to the seat post tube. Your crank type is from 1914 - 1914. I'm lost???

Bill_

At the time, like you, I didn't realize mine had 2 serial numbers.  I first thought it was a dent in the tube, then remembered this is where the serial numbers were 'supposed' to be located, so I removed a tiny bit of paint.
Unfortunately, at some point it appears someone had tried to grind or sand off the head tube numbers, so they aren't legible but clearly were there.

I also laced up NOS Morrow hubs to modern 27" alloy rims, like you mentioned wanting to do.  It rides great.  I have a the 24 tooth front star ring, like you do and put a 7 tooth on the back.  The thing is a bullet.  A bit slow off the line, but quickly gets up to speed and then just flies.  

Good luck with your restoration and I am interested in seeing and reading about the finished product.  

-Scott


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## 10~18kustoms (Sep 11, 2012)

Scott, thanks.  It's a little bit comforting to know I'm not the only one going crazy over this 2 serial number thing. (well still driving me crazy, ha!).  Nice bike you have, I hope mine turns out and rides a well as it sounds yours does.  I haven't yet, but I guess I should send pictures of the 2 s#s and of the bike to Bill Smith and see what he has to say.  Was hopeing someone here would know something since I don't have Bill's contact info, just have read a bunch of threads that refer back to his knowlage.


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## tailhole (Sep 11, 2012)

*Bill Smith - Iver Johnson*

I'll PM you the contact info I have for him.  I was told to be very thankful & respectful when sending him an email (I would have anyway), so I thought I better advise you to do the same.  Also send photos to him and be patient.
I think you mentioned another Iver 26" bike you have?  I'd like to see photos of it.  I love these bikes.  Solid and well built.
Good luck with your research.
-Scott


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## olderthandirt (Sep 12, 2012)

*handle bars and stem*

i have a later diamond frame iver johnson that came with the same stem and bars  turn the bars over and around and you have nice drop bars


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (Mar 23, 2013)

I just picked up an early Iver Johnson motorbike. The original paint was destroyed in a very hot attic but the metalwork is really nice. It will require a re-paint. Even the tires baked to crumble bits.
The metal rims measure 24" in diameter. I think it uses 26" tires? Or could it use 28" clinchers?
The serial numer is perplexing. It is only on the bottom bracket, not on the seat tube.
It is P138. What does the P designate?


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