# Build date for this Hawthorne Hercules



## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 2, 2018)

I can't find any information on Hawthorne Serial numbers. Can someone, please, point me in the right direction?


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## GTs58 (Apr 2, 2018)

Can't help with the serial number question but I can tell you the bike was most likely built somewhere around 1974-75 when those reflectors were the cats meow.


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 3, 2018)

GTs58 said:


> Can't help with the serial number question but I can tell you the bike was most likely built somewhere around 1974-75 when those reflectors were the cats meow.





Thanks. I was leaning toward the 70's.


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## Freqman1 (Apr 3, 2018)

The bike is an English import sold through MW. You may try looking at Phillips or Raleigh serial numbers? V/r Shawn


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 3, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> The bike is an English import sold through MW. You may try looking at Phillips or Raleigh serial numbers? V/r Shawn





So, what's confusing here is there's like three or four names attached to this bike. So, the bike is a Hercules, made in England, but might have actually been made my Raleigh or Phillips. The bike was made for Hawthorne, which made bikes exclusively for MW. Do I have this correct?


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## Freqman1 (Apr 3, 2018)

Barry Nofzinger said:


> So, what's confusing here is there's like three or four names attached to this bike. So, the bike is a Hercules, made in England, but might have actually been made my Raleigh or Phillips. The bike was made for Hawthorne, which made bikes exclusively for MW. Do I have this correct?



Hawthorne is only a brand name used by MW for its bicycles. So the bike was built by an English manufacturer (Phillips/Raleigh/?) for a U.S. retailer (Montgomery Ward) who sold it as a Hawthorne. As you may or may not know most retailers e.g. Sears, MW, Firestone, Goodyear, etc... never built their own bikes but contracted with manufacturers such as Westfield, Colson, Monark, Cleveland Welding Co. etc... to build their bikes. Sometimes these were exclusive designs such as the Bluebird (Westfield for Sears) or generic (usually lower end models) sold through a variety of retailers.

I wouldn't agonize over this bike too much. It is a fairly modern, base model bike with little, if any, collector value. With a good service it would make someone a decent rider but the service (unless you do it yourself) will likely exceed the value of the bike. V/r Shawn


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 3, 2018)

Freqman1 said:


> Hawthorne is only a brand name used by MW for its bicycles. So the bike was built by an English manufacturer (Phillips/Raleigh/?) for a U.S. retailer (Montgomery Ward) who sold it as a Hawthorne. As you may or may not know most retailers e.g. Sears, MW, Firestone, Goodyear, etc... never built their own bikes but contracted with manufacturers such as Westfield, Colson, Monark, Cleveland Welding Co. etc... to build their bikes. Sometimes these were exclusive designs such as the Bluebird (Westfield for Sears) or generic (usually lower end models) sold through a variety of retailers.
> 
> I wouldn't agonize over this bike too much. It is a fairly modern, base model bike with little, if any, collector value. With a good service it would make someone a decent rider but the service (unless you do it yourself) will likely exceed the value of the bike. V/r Shawn





Thanks for the information.


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## Oilit (Apr 3, 2018)

Hercules was built by the British Cycle Corp. (BCC) until it was merged with Raleigh in 1960. Montgomery Ward imported Hercules in the '50's and up into the '60's. The details on your bike look like a Hercules from before the merger, where Hercules from the later '60's are just re-badged Raleighs. For now there's no serial list for Hercules, but from the decals, I'd guess late '50's or early '60's, either before or just after the merger, when the bikes were still distinct. The reflectors @GTs58 mentions were probably added later. If your head badge says Birmingham (England) that was where Hercules was located before the merger. (Raleigh was based in Nottingham) Someone took care of that bike, it's in very nice shape for the age! As @Freqman1 says it's not terribly valuable, but it's a well made bike and you're not going to see another one everywhere you go, either.


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 3, 2018)

Oilit said:


> Hercules was built by the British Cycle Corp. (BCC) until it was merged with Raleigh in 1960. Montgomery Ward imported Hercules in the '50's and up into the '60's. The details on your bike look like a Hercules from before the merger, where Hercules from the later '60's are just re-badged Raleighs. For now there's no serial list for Hercules, but from the decals, I'd guess late '50's or early '60's, either before or just after the merger, when the bikes were still distinct. The reflectors @GTs58 mentions were probably added later. If your head badge says Birmingham (England) that was where Hercules was located before the merger. (Raleigh was based in Nottingham) Someone took care of that bike, it's in very nice shape for the age! As @Freqman1 says it's not terribly valuable, but it's a well made bike and you're not going to see another one everywhere you go, either.





Thanks, a lot. The person I bought the bike from was an older lady who had her even older father there. He mentioned the year 1959. Do you think he could be right?


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## Oilit (Apr 3, 2018)

Barry Nofzinger said:


> Thanks, a lot. The person I bought the bike from was an older lady who had her even older father there. He mentioned the year 1959. Do you think he could be right?



I'm not going to argue with the original owner! Especially since that sounds about right!


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## GTs58 (Apr 3, 2018)

Oilit said:


> I'm not going to argue with the original owner! Especially since that sounds about right!




So the later 70's reflector pedals were added later also?


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 4, 2018)

GTs58 said:


> So the later 70's reflector pedals were added later also?





So, you're thinking 1970’s, too?


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## Oilit (Apr 4, 2018)

GTs58 said:


> So the later 70's reflector pedals were added later also?



I'm guessing they had to be. The original pedals usually held up pretty well, so I have no idea why they would have been changed, unless they got rusty and somebody thought they looked bad. The seat's been swapped out at some point also. Maybe the local bike shop spruced it up a little.


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## gkeep (Apr 4, 2018)

Thats a great looking bike. I'll bet somebody into the Tweed Ride scene would love it! I've recently been trying to find information on a womans Armstrong and Robin Hood I rescued from the scrap pile. It does get confusing with all the English companies merging in the 50s and 60s. They did often put dates on parts though so check over everything and you may stumble on a date here or there for a clue. You could also look up catalogs and find out what years that color was available. It's always nice if a bike has the Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub because they always have a date stamped.

It looks like a nice workhorse bike to me, just needs a wicker basket on the handlebars with a picnic in it.

Gary


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 4, 2018)

Oilit said:


> I'm guessing they had to be. The original pedals usually held up pretty well, so I have no idea why they would have been changed, unless they got rusty and somebody thought they looked bad. The seat's been swapped out at some point also. Maybe the local bike shop spruced it up a little.




So either of these pictures help with a date. I couldn’t find any other numbers on the bike.


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 4, 2018)

Barry Nofzinger said:


> So either of these pictures help with a date. I couldn’t find any other numbers on the bike.
> 
> View attachment 782628


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## gkeep (Apr 4, 2018)

B.C.C. on the rim is British Cycle Corp., From Wikepedia history of Hercules-Tube Investments combined the company with Norman, Phillips, and Sun to form the British Cycle Corporation in 1956. Hercules adopted the slogan 'Wonder Wheels'.


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 4, 2018)

gkeep said:


> B.C.C. on the rim is British Cycle Corp., From Wikepedia history of Hercules-Tube Investments combined the company with Norman, Phillips, and Sun to form the British Cycle Corporation in 1956. Hercules adopted the slogan 'Wonder Wheels'.




So, I read some more of that Wikipedia page and found this, "Tube Investments bought the Nottingham-based Raleigh Cycle Company in 1960 to form TI Raleigh Industries. Combined, they controlled 75% of the British bicycle market. Management of the British Cycle Corporation was handed to the Raleigh management, as that company with its greater domestic focus, was larger and better known. Raleigh quickly decided to cut the number of brands, and move to using Raleigh designs and standards. Production was concentrated in Nottingham in 1960, and by 1963 there was little left of a distinctive Hercules."

Do you think that, based on this statement, this bike is most likely not from the 70's, since there wasn't much left of the brand by the 60's. This would mean that someone changed out the pedals on mine, maybe for night visibility or something like that.


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## Oilit (Apr 4, 2018)

Barry Nofzinger said:


> So, I read some more of that Wikipedia page and found this, "Tube Investments bought the Nottingham-based Raleigh Cycle Company in 1960 to form TI Raleigh Industries. Combined, they controlled 75% of the British bicycle market. Management of the British Cycle Corporation was handed to the Raleigh management, as that company with its greater domestic focus, was larger and better known. Raleigh quickly decided to cut the number of brands, and move to using Raleigh designs and standards. Production was concentrated in Nottingham in 1960, and by 1963 there was little left of a distinctive Hercules."
> 
> Do you think that, based on this statement, this bike is most likely not from the 70's, since there wasn't much left of the brand by the 60's. This would mean that someone changed out the pedals on mine, maybe for night visibility or something like that.



I still think that yours was built just before the merger with Raleigh. I've got a Hawthorne/Hercules from the early '60's, after the merger. It's a three-speed and I'm dating it by the Sturmey-Archer hub. The chain guard has the same three stripe decal as yours, but at the rear yours has a bracket extending to the fender stay hole in the rear drop-out. On mine, the rear drop-out is a Raleigh pattern, with the fender stay hole at the very back, and the rear of the chain guard has a tab underneath to bolt to a clip around the chain stay. On Sheldon Brown's "Servicing English Three Speeds" page, under the heading "How to tell the Raleighs from the others" he says "The easiest way to identify Raleigh-built bikes is by looking at the rear dropouts. Almost all Raleigh-threaded bikes have the rear fender eyelets located directly behind the axle, instead of above it."
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html
Sheldon wasn't infallible, but he was an acute observer and I've learned a lot reading his web pages.
Other differences to look for are the front edge of the front fender, which is a sharper "V" shape on Raleigh-built bikes, and the chrome fender tip has a different shape. The forks and lugs are different and the parallel lines on the rear drop out also seem to have been a Hercules feature. The bikes are similar, but when you put them side by side, you start to pick up on the differences. I'll try to get some pictures of mine in the next couple of days.
The B.C.C. rims on your bike are unusual, the '50's Hercules that I've seen, (4 or 5 bikes) use Dunlop rims. Raleigh made their own rims for their higher end bikes (Raleigh, Rudge and Humber) but also used Dunlop and Sturmey-Archer rims on the more economy-conscious name plates. I bet production of B.C.C. rims didn't last long after the merger.


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## Oilit (Apr 6, 2018)

So here's another Hawthorne/Hercules, but from the early '60's, after the merger. The date on the hub is hard to read in the picture, but it's "63   9", for Sept. 1963, so the bike probably dates to 1963 or '64. At first glance, it looks like a Raleigh Colt, but the Colt had a straight down tube. The British manufacturers seem to have built a lot of different frames during the late '50's and early '60's, with no obvious precedents. The Veteran-Cycle Club on-line Library has a good selection of British bicycle catalogs, but if you look through a Hercules or Raleigh catalog from the mid-50's, there's hardly a curved frame tube in sight:
http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/index.php?action=asearch&searchtext=R&tpage=2&items=64
My best guess is that by the late '50's, the British manufacturers were trying to differentiate their brands and appeal more to the American market, but by the mid-60's, it was obvious that 10-speeds were the future, and three speed frames were pared down to a small range of basic designs. But that's just a guess based on the bikes that I've seen, which aren't that many. There are other people here interested in this subject, and if @sam, @SirMike1983, @dnc1, @RidgeWalker, @juvela, @3-speeder, @bulldog1935, @HARPO, @usarnie1, @bikemonkey, @wrongway  or anybody else has an insight, I'd be interested to hear it.
I looked over some more of my bikes, and the location of the serial number on the left drop-out looks like another indicator that yours was built by B.C.C. During the mid-to late '50's, Raleigh serial numbers were on the left side of the lug at the top of the seat post. During the early '60's they went to the bottom bracket, then back to the seat lug (on top this time), then to the back of the seat post. Kurt Kaminer's "The Headbadge" web page has a whole section on the various locations of Raleigh serial numbers, and the only Raleighs that used the left drop-out were some of the high-end '70's 10-speeds.
As @gkeep said, sorting out the English bikes is no little job, but if the old man you bought yours from mentioned 1959, I'm guessing that he or his wife may have been the original owner, and I'd take him at his word.
And when I went back one of my bikes has B.C.C. rims, which I hadn't noticed, so I learned something. Thanks for posting your pictures!


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 6, 2018)

Oilit said:


> So here's another Hawthorne/Hercules, but from the early '60's, after the merger. The date on the hub is hard to read in the picture, but it's "63   9", for Sept. 1963, so the bike probably dates to 1963 or '64. At first glance, it looks like a Raleigh Colt, but the Colt had a straight down tube. The British manufacturers seem to have built a lot of different frames during the late '50's and early '60's, with no obvious precedents. The Veteran-Cycle Club on-line Library has a good selection of British bicycle catalogs, but if you look through a Hercules or Raleigh catalog from the mid-50's, there's hardly a curved frame tube in sight:
> http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/index.php?action=asearch&searchtext=R&tpage=2&items=64
> My best guess is that by the late '50's, the British manufacturers were trying to differentiate their brands and appeal more to the American market, but by the mid-60's, it was obvious that 10-speeds were the future, and three speed frames were pared down to a small range of basic designs. But that's just a guess based on the bikes that I've seen, which aren't that many. There are other people here interested in this subject, and if @sam, @SirMike1983, @dnc1, @RidgeWalker, @juvela, @3-speeder, @bulldog1935, @HARPO, @usarnie1, @bikemonkey, @wrongway  or anybody else has an insight, I'd be interested to hear it.
> I looked over some more of my bikes, and the location of the serial number on the left drop-out looks like another indicator that yours was built by B.C.C. During the mid-to late '50's, Raleigh serial numbers were on the left side of the lug at the top of the seat post. During the early '60's they went to the bottom bracket, then back to the seat lug (on top this time), then to the back of the seat post. Kurt Kaminer's "The Headbadge" web page has a whole section on the various locations of Raleigh serial numbers, and the only Raleighs that used the left drop-out were some of the high-end '70's 10-speeds.
> ...





You're welcome. Thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it.


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 6, 2018)

Oilit said:


> So here's another Hawthorne/Hercules, but from the early '60's, after the merger. The date on the hub is hard to read in the picture, but it's "63   9", for Sept. 1963, so the bike probably dates to 1963 or '64. At first glance, it looks like a Raleigh Colt, but the Colt had a straight down tube. The British manufacturers seem to have built a lot of different frames during the late '50's and early '60's, with no obvious precedents. The Veteran-Cycle Club on-line Library has a good selection of British bicycle catalogs, but if you look through a Hercules or Raleigh catalog from the mid-50's, there's hardly a curved frame tube in sight:
> http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/index.php?action=asearch&searchtext=R&tpage=2&items=64
> My best guess is that by the late '50's, the British manufacturers were trying to differentiate their brands and appeal more to the American market, but by the mid-60's, it was obvious that 10-speeds were the future, and three speed frames were pared down to a small range of basic designs. But that's just a guess based on the bikes that I've seen, which aren't that many. There are other people here interested in this subject, and if @sam, @SirMike1983, @dnc1, @RidgeWalker, @juvela, @3-speeder, @bulldog1935, @HARPO, @usarnie1, @bikemonkey, @wrongway  or anybody else has an insight, I'd be interested to hear it.
> I looked over some more of my bikes, and the location of the serial number on the left drop-out looks like another indicator that yours was built by B.C.C. During the mid-to late '50's, Raleigh serial numbers were on the left side of the lug at the top of the seat post. During the early '60's they went to the bottom bracket, then back to the seat lug (on top this time), then to the back of the seat post. Kurt Kaminer's "The Headbadge" web page has a whole section on the various locations of Raleigh serial numbers, and the only Raleighs that used the left drop-out were some of the high-end '70's 10-speeds.
> ...





I found this site that seems to lend some weight to your statements. 

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Hercules_Cycle_and_Motor_Co


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 6, 2018)

Oilit said:


> So here's another Hawthorne/Hercules, but from the early '60's, after the merger. The date on the hub is hard to read in the picture, but it's "63   9", for Sept. 1963, so the bike probably dates to 1963 or '64. At first glance, it looks like a Raleigh Colt, but the Colt had a straight down tube. The British manufacturers seem to have built a lot of different frames during the late '50's and early '60's, with no obvious precedents. The Veteran-Cycle Club on-line Library has a good selection of British bicycle catalogs, but if you look through a Hercules or Raleigh catalog from the mid-50's, there's hardly a curved frame tube in sight:
> http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/index.php?action=asearch&searchtext=R&tpage=2&items=64
> My best guess is that by the late '50's, the British manufacturers were trying to differentiate their brands and appeal more to the American market, but by the mid-60's, it was obvious that 10-speeds were the future, and three speed frames were pared down to a small range of basic designs. But that's just a guess based on the bikes that I've seen, which aren't that many. There are other people here interested in this subject, and if @sam, @SirMike1983, @dnc1, @RidgeWalker, @juvela, @3-speeder, @bulldog1935, @HARPO, @usarnie1, @bikemonkey, @wrongway  or anybody else has an insight, I'd be interested to hear it.
> I looked over some more of my bikes, and the location of the serial number on the left drop-out looks like another indicator that yours was built by B.C.C. During the mid-to late '50's, Raleigh serial numbers were on the left side of the lug at the top of the seat post. During the early '60's they went to the bottom bracket, then back to the seat lug (on top this time), then to the back of the seat post. Kurt Kaminer's "The Headbadge" web page has a whole section on the various locations of Raleigh serial numbers, and the only Raleighs that used the left drop-out were some of the high-end '70's 10-speeds.
> ...





I found some more info on this site.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Tube_Investments


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## wrongway (Apr 6, 2018)

I don't know if it's any help, but this was my first three speed. I forget the year now. I sold it because it was too short. It also had many names attached to it. Such as: AMF, Hawthorne, Hercules....


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## 3-speeder (Apr 6, 2018)

I recognized that your serial number is in the same place as on my '53 Hercules Tourist. The left side dropout area. I looked at my two AMF Hercules from '64 and '65 and the serial number is not there. I would think that 50's build is a good bet.


 
You can also see the fender attachment point above the axle. Here's another thread with fifties Hercules bikes:
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/auction-finds-royal-and-bianchi-50s.122884/


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 6, 2018)

3-speeder said:


> I recognized that your serial number is in the same place as on my '53 Hercules Tourist. The left side dropout area. I looked at my two AMF Hercules from '64 and '65 and the serial number is not there. I would think that 50's build is a good bet.
> View attachment 783784
> You can also see the fender attachment point above the axle. Here's another thread with fifties Hercules bikes:
> https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/auction-finds-royal-and-bianchi-50s.122884/





Thanks. Can you post some more pictures of your bike?


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## 3-speeder (Apr 6, 2018)

I love sharing pictures. Here are a few more of my Tourist


 

 

 

 

 



I wonder when they went to the chaingaurd shaped more like a machete blade than this one?



 


The saddle and grips are not original


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 6, 2018)

3-speeder said:


> I love sharing pictures. Here are a few more of my Tourist
> View attachment 783825 View attachment 783826 View attachment 783827 View attachment 783828 View attachment 783829 View attachment 783830
> 
> I wonder when they went to the chaingaurd shaped more like a machete blade than this one?
> ...




Nice pictures.


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## SirMike1983 (Apr 6, 2018)

Very late era Birmingham-type parts. Could be right before or right after Hercules merged with Raleigh. Raleigh did a parts "clean up" of the Birmingham parts they received in the merger - you see Birmingham-type parts on some of the very early Raleigh-made Hercules bikes from the early 1960s. But if the original owner said 1959, that might very well be right - the original parts fit with that.

This bike was gone over in the mid or late 1970s based on the non-original parts here. Those are later additions, and it's not uncommon that a child or second-generation owner would do this.


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## Barry Nofzinger (Apr 8, 2018)

Oilit said:


> So here's another Hawthorne/Hercules, but from the early '60's, after the merger. The date on the hub is hard to read in the picture, but it's "63   9", for Sept. 1963, so the bike probably dates to 1963 or '64. At first glance, it looks like a Raleigh Colt, but the Colt had a straight down tube. The British manufacturers seem to have built a lot of different frames during the late '50's and early '60's, with no obvious precedents. The Veteran-Cycle Club on-line Library has a good selection of British bicycle catalogs, but if you look through a Hercules or Raleigh catalog from the mid-50's, there's hardly a curved frame tube in sight:
> http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/index.php?action=asearch&searchtext=R&tpage=2&items=64
> My best guess is that by the late '50's, the British manufacturers were trying to differentiate their brands and appeal more to the American market, but by the mid-60's, it was obvious that 10-speeds were the future, and three speed frames were pared down to a small range of basic designs. But that's just a guess based on the bikes that I've seen, which aren't that many. There are other people here interested in this subject, and if @sam, @SirMike1983, @dnc1, @RidgeWalker, @juvela, @3-speeder, @bulldog1935, @HARPO, @usarnie1, @bikemonkey, @wrongway  or anybody else has an insight, I'd be interested to hear it.
> I looked over some more of my bikes, and the location of the serial number on the left drop-out looks like another indicator that yours was built by B.C.C. During the mid-to late '50's, Raleigh serial numbers were on the left side of the lug at the top of the seat post. During the early '60's they went to the bottom bracket, then back to the seat lug (on top this time), then to the back of the seat post. Kurt Kaminer's "The Headbadge" web page has a whole section on the various locations of Raleigh serial numbers, and the only Raleighs that used the left drop-out were some of the high-end '70's 10-speeds.
> ...





This website says the Resilion, the company that made my rear coaster brake hub, made it’s last product in 1958.

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/resilion-story.html


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## Oilit (Apr 9, 2018)

Barry Nofzinger said:


> This website says the Resilion, the company that made my rear coaster brake hub, made it’s last product in 1958.
> 
> http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/resilion-story.html



That makes sense. I like the websites you're finding, good information!


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## Oilit (Apr 9, 2018)

Barry Nofzinger said:


> This website says the Resilion, the company that made my rear coaster brake hub, made it’s last product in 1958.
> 
> http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/resilion-story.html



Towards the end of the article, it sounds like Resilion may have been absorbed into Phillips. If you look at this thread (I was looking for information about a couple of my bikes) @sam posted a good listing of the companies included in the B.C.C, and Phillips was one of them.
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/pair-of-1955-royal-crowns.110056/


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