# Lady's/Girls differences in frame, heavy and middle weight changed when?



## Jeff54 (May 16, 2014)

Of course, not being interested in girls bikes I never noticed until today  that vintage girls frames have two styles.. So now I'm wondering when?

In the 40-50's Schwinn made this type which has an extra drop cross bar supporting the two.
Borrowing peoples photographs of the net here. 






And then we have these without the extra in-between bar: 






But I am getting cornfused!

there appears to be a mix of the two styles during the same time frames. 
1960



1958




So, maybe Schwinn stopped putting the extra bar in 1958 or so??

so, which is what got me wondering,  what's this doing with it?
It's a small photograph but, if you'll notice where the emblem is missing original color, is candy apple red. I don't recall that color in the 1950's. Not all of this bike is Schwinn and appears to have been modified, up-dated with 'stuff'  but it's the frame that's got me wondering! 





The bottom line is: Does anybody know what the cut off time period is for those with the extra support bar?

Can we say: all after 1958 is without, and before is 1957 and below or what?


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## GTs58 (May 16, 2014)

I've asked the same question. I have seen 1955 56 57 58 girls corvette frames with and without the truss bar. I would take a somewhat researched guess and say the truss bar was totally deleted with the 1959 model year. And I have no idea why in the same model year both style frames were made.


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## snickle (May 17, 2014)

I previously thought the bar was there for structural integrity, but now i'm wondering if it was just to hold a tank.


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## Jeff54 (May 17, 2014)

GTs58 said:


> I've asked the same question. I have seen 1955 56 57 58 girls corvette frames with and without the truss bar. I would take a somewhat researched guess and say the truss bar was totally deleted with the 1959 model year. And I have no idea why in the same model year both style frames were made.




I'm guessing too but, if as early as 1955, Schwinn had serious problems selling the lady's models and dumped all previous 'with support  bar' frames as they could without too much notice. 

No wonder nobody knows,  Nobody's been interested in girl/women's Schwinn bikes for more than a half a century! LOL

It also indicates the rarity factor has nothing to do with value.. No doubt women/Girls models are far rarer than boy/men's. Even the ever popular easily obtained Hollywood.


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## Jeff54 (May 17, 2014)

snickle said:


> I previously thought the bar was there for structural integrity, but now i'm wondering if it was just to hold a tank.





I'm sure that was why it's there, not simply to hang a tank, lol..

However I'd expect that once removed Schwinn would have increased the tinsel strength in metal used. Added a bit of carbon in the tubes. 

Today's models have two support bars, tubes, between the main bars ,, more support to compensate for cheap metal,  and most know or should, it's simply for the cheap element, to cheap to add that carbon. And why all metal components are rusting so fast. Chrome rusting out, it's not the chrome it's Soft metal under it!.

Chrome likes to have an undercoating, nickel or copper because it actually has microscopic holes in it. . Both are less active than steel metal,  but copper is soft and can polish out for the best shine, and nickel is hard but provides the seal. With soft steel under it,, it'll rust faster than ever. No water required, simply high humidity and kiss that chrome good--bye!


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## Jeff54 (May 17, 2014)

GTs58 said:


> I've asked the same question. I have seen 1955 56 57 58 girls corvette frames with and without the truss bar. I would take a somewhat researched guess and say the truss bar was totally deleted with the 1959 model year. And I have no idea why in the same model year both style frames were made.




Lets add this to the list 1940, so once again another mystery! 

When did Schwinn begin this and change  1940's and lower Girls frame to the late 40's-50's style?

Surely somebody's done their homework on girls frames by now??

can't be a' men's only' collectible hobby?!! Bedside's gender or not, where there's money to be made, somebody is hunting! LOL


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## GTs58 (May 17, 2014)

If you look at the pre war models you will see the truss tube is in a different location than the later post war frames and it seems the spacing between the top and downtube is also different. Girls frames have a tendency to collapse and that truss tube is pretty much worthless unless it's close to the seatmask.


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## Wayne Adam (May 17, 2014)

I Have a few girls Schwinns here, and out of about seven of them, the only one with the support bar is my 24" 1954 Wasp.
Below are pictures of my 1958 Corvette ( Excellent unrestored, last year for the girls Corvette), and my 1954 24" Wasp ( unrestored).
I have never seen a support bar on any other '58 Corvettes, but who knows.
Perhaps Schwinn had this huge room full of frames, and the builders just grabbed whatever was convenient..................Wayne


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## Jeff54 (May 21, 2014)

*1 question answered*

Well I managed to answer 1 question which was what started me wondering. The bike in question (last photo blue bike) turned out to be a 1955 girls 24 inch spitfire. I'm presuming it's spitfire it's an odd chain guard and I found a boy's 24 incher coach green and ivory with the same odd style chain guard so,, But maybe it's a corvette with weird chain guard cause it's 24? ?  . A craig's list find.

It's been a little up-dated, newer Schwinn peddles, and maybe, not sure yet but possibly newer Schwinn crank, although shouldn't have needed one Because all of the chrome on this little girls bike, handle bar, goose neck, sprocket rims etc.  is Very, very nice! ( Indicating there's hardly any rust under the areas the dope painted the silver. .)
 Also newer Schwinn tires too. Not sure which kind or year as it's not brick or typhoon and has the Schwinn logo in an little white spot on side of tires. And that ought to tell me the time period it was "Restored" 

Whoever "restored" it, LOL, brush painted the blue, and silver, bush painted, a lot of things that this age would have cleaned up easy.  Stainless steel fenders, and for me the mounting is unusual. Both fenders are mounted with right angle brackets verses the standard screws from the underside of fender to frame bracket and fork . . And the type of mounting fixed on frame is designed for that rear frame bracket and fork too. . what?" go figure? Who knows the answer to that? 

And,  takes me to another question, see that rack? Chrome through and through and it's tiny 24 inch bike size (19 inches verse 26 bike at 23 inch) . I wouldn't expect a repop in shorty size but, anybody know?  It's the same as in the Schwinn 1955 catalog, could it actually be aluminum too? http://schwinncruisers.com/catalogs/1955.html#spitfire

And yet of the things I couldn't answer, that original color sure is candy apple red! ( serial numbers  05/03 to 05/05 of 1955) ,Maybe it's actually Opal red,  (Candy apple red  in the 1960's is was what us kids called it) 

Prob need to create a different topic now but..


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## GTs58 (May 21, 2014)

*A Corvette*

If the serial is actually a 55 number, the fenders are original to the bike and stainless, a drilled fork and rear caliper/fender bracket, that more than likely started out as a 3 speed Corvette.


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## Jeff54 (May 21, 2014)

GTs58 said:


> If the serial is actually a 55 number, the fenders are original to the bike and stainless, a drilled fork and rear caliper/fender bracket, that more than likely started out as a 3 speed Corvette.




 Yeah wondered bout that but, the Schwinn catalog:  (  http://schwinncruisers.com/catalogs/1955.html#corvette )  says the 24" only comes in  a 1 speed coaster. " F73       24-inch       Corvette (coaster brake) "

  I bet that chromed rack at 24" size ( 19 inches) is as rare as hens teeth. to bad rare is not dictator of value! 

I learning to much lot about this type bike today 'grin'


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## GTs58 (May 21, 2014)

The site that you posted is not complete and a lot times it's incorrect, not to mention the bad spelling. Use Toms site to save yourself the headache and you'll see that a 24" Girls three speed Corvette was offered in 1955. 
http://www.trfindley.com/pg_schwinn_cats.htm


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## Jeff54 (May 21, 2014)

GTs58 said:


> The site that you posted is not complete and a lot times it's incorrect, not to mention the bad spelling. Use Toms site to save yourself the headache and you'll see that a 24" Girls three speed Corvette was offered in 1955.
> http://www.trfindley.com/pg_schwinn_cats.htm





Yes it shows the F77, "Deluxe" 3 speed and F73 "Deluxe" coaster.  ( http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1951_1960/1955.html ) And from what limited photo searching I've found, around the net, it seems they used the same type of frame for both  types. The good thing about that is; discriminating between the American and Corvette. Might be the stainless steel fenders  on the 1955 corvette which is why the difference in frames. I see the 1955  American has standard under fender mounts.


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## GTs58 (May 21, 2014)

When the middleweights came out the three speed was an option on most. At this time most all models with cantilever frames that had a gearing option, used or not, came with the flat bracket for the rear caliper. If the frame was built up as a coaster, it still had the flat bracket but it did not have a drilled fork. Good example is this 55 American catalog picture. http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1951_1960/1955_06.html

The difference in frames had nothing to do with the fenders. All the balloon frames came with arched rear fender mounting bracket and fenders without the L bracket except for the 54 and 55 Jag, and thats because it was the *only* three speed ballooner.


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## spoker (May 22, 2014)

just got an oricinal 1960 fair lady, 2 speed manual rear hub,caliper front brakr has the cross bar for a rear caliper brake but wasnt needed


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## Jeff54 (May 22, 2014)

GTs58 said:


> When the middleweights came out the three speed was an option on most. At this time most all models with cantilever frames that had a gearing option, used or not, came with the flat bracket for the rear caliper. If the frame was built up as a coaster, it still had the flat bracket but it did not have a drilled fork. Good example is this 55 American catalog picture. http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1951_1960/1955_06.html
> 
> The difference in frames had nothing to do with the fenders. All the balloon frames came with arched rear fender mounting bracket and fenders without the L bracket except for the 54 and 55 Jag, and thats because it was the *only* three speed ballooner.




Yeah I understand where you're going with this thought GT, but here's the thing, the stainless steel  front fender, that's what seems to make a difference, it's made with the right angle bracket, ya can't mount it if the fork isn't especially made  for it.  

However, lets take to point, why waste a good fork, 'cantilever', when you have a ka-zillion regular forks in stock rusting? It's also possible these could have, even with a coaster rear brake,  come with additional front brake 'option' as a standard feature. . Understanding that If you're a Schwinn dealer, and you've got a customer who came in for a multi-speed Corvette, it's smart for the company to include stock for quick modifications to any feature. In 10-15 minutes a Coaster is a 3 speed. 









The previous restoration 'expert' lol, man,,, used some hard white paint on the chain guard, brushed on too, which means it's thick. Otherwise I could scratch it off to get bike name. And that could answer a lot because it's not the one shown on other bikes it's more of a lessor stylized than the 'streamlined' version.

. But by chance, luck, hook or crook it's the same red as the frame under that junk white. 
Potentially lower version, "Just stick the name on any chain guard and go!" factory built coaster brake model. Or, if you're not going with the whole Deluxe features, ya ain't getting the stylized guard. 










Also thanks to this lesson, it's now occurred to me,  the fork and front fender on mine, designed to allow cantilever brakes, , might be just as rare as that rear rack in 24 incher ?











Incidentally yes it's a 1955>








Few other specs:








I do not recall this hub, back in the day, , although my primary interest was completely restoring 10 speeds in 1969-72, and building sting ray's from scrap, in the 1960's. I would get a hub and guts  from who knows what time frame and assemble them back then, but this hub might be in contrast to today's glamor,, for sure wouldn't have wanted it for the extended sized the outer portion is. It was streamlined verses extra  gob .Or as I recall, I was fishing out Bendex coaster brakes of any Schwinn ,  and only wanted or used those with the red stripe on hub.  Do not recall it for that. or would have rejected for custom "restored" (bare metal re-painted, stickers from Schwinn etc)  sting ray builds. . 

Wadda ya know bout this hub?


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## Jeff54 (May 22, 2014)

I really should have created a new topic dannit, cause hoped to enlighten more about just telling the girls frame difference through the years, but since we are this far, and you seem to know more on this Corvette than, I Added some photos to illustrate more in my previous post.


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## bicycle larry (May 22, 2014)

*ladys bicycles*

this is a 1952 shwinn in org. con. the org. sales tag says purchesd in june 4 1952 i have the ladys name also . it was sold in brocksville ohio.  from bicycle larry


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## Jeff54 (May 22, 2014)

bicycle larry said:


> this is a 1952 shwinn in org. con. the org. sales tag says purchesd in june 4 1952 i have the ladys name also . it was sold in brocksville ohio.  from bicycle larry




That's nice Larry. I have the same bike but 1948  B.F Goodrich, and has the stubbed nose goose neck, coach green. Can't tell your color, is it green, blue, or green or blue? all that yellow in photo . 

Give ya a little tip if you're daring enough to try. Mine was a field bike, I took my trusty rusty killer, realy cheap toilet bowl cleaner, the high priced are too strong.  and applied it on the painted areas where the rust was seeping through. zipity quick in a jiffy rust gone.. But THEN you've really gotta rinse it off with distilled water, and I mean rinse, rinse, rinse!!. You have got to neutralize that acid which is inside the microscopic areas of metal, or else! it will come back and haunt you in the worse way. 

Presto bingo, that rusty ivory comes clean as a whistle! that was 10 years ago, and still clean, Albiet, it's showing signs of use by daughter. wife and storage.  (If it re-appears for no good reason, you didn't rinse, rinse rinse!)

 Now this is also daring but, on a field bike rusting for years I gave it the ol'ah what the heck, anyways' job. Cleaned the rims with the toilet cleaner  too (carefully, not touching the spokes or spoke nuts) , and found a match spy paint Ivory, gave the wheels a spin as I sprayed on the paint up to the black line. (spray nozzle real close and fast while wheel spinning so it wouldn't over spray into the black line) 

Then I had auto shop mix a small amount of green, and wiped it on all the scratches, rusty spots so it would blend in. 

Not as sparkly as yours, but from field rust Junker, here ya go. Old seat was only worth sticking in a bag gathering dust now. , lol, and at the time didn't like the 48 handle bars, dumb, didn't save them. (eh ah, had no idea anybody would be collecting em lol)


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## bicycle larry (May 22, 2014)

*ladys bicycles*

sorry jeff here is a beter picture its blue and white .


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## GTs58 (May 22, 2014)

Quote:
_Yeah I understand where you're going with this thought GT, but here's the thing, the stainless steel front fender, that's what seems to make a difference, it's made with the right angle bracket, ya can't mount it if the fork isn't especially made for it. 

However, lets take to point, why waste a good fork, 'cantilever', when you have a ka-zillion regular forks in stock rusting? It's also possible these could have, even with a coaster rear brake, come with additional front brake 'option' as a standard feature. . Understanding that If you're a Schwinn dealer, and you've got a customer who came in for a multi-speed Corvette, it's smart for the company to include stock for quick modifications to any feature. In 10-15 minutes a Coaster is a 3 speed._ 

As I said in an earlier post, that bike probably started out as a three speed Corvette and later stripped down and made into a coaster, therefore the drilled fork for the missing caliper. I'm not an expert on the old rear carriers but I've never seen a 50's issue mount to the seat post clamp. That's more than likely a later aftermarket piece.


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## spoker (May 22, 2014)

i wunder if the fork issue explains why my 56 american came with a 2 speed manual rear hub and for mount v brakes,original,check the catalog


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## Jeff54 (May 22, 2014)

GTs58 said:


> Quote:
> _ I'm not an expert on the old rear carriers but I've never seen a 50's issue mount to the seat post clamp. That's more than likely a later aftermarket piece._



_

Yeah, you're right that's not a Schwinn issue. I didn't think it was when I first saw it but then saw a regular Schwinn dealer/ seller at the bay, identifying the 26" sized one at 23" who said it is. So, I just took it for granted. But come to think on it, rechecked the catalogs, and it sure aint there.   Similar for the 'tear drop'? pattern, but no tomato on the mounting to seat post deal. It does not drop far enough to fit on the seat post clamp, no way, not gonna happen. It does have one characteristic, unlike the knock off's though. The chrome is thick and juicy. Not something Murray or huffy produced back in the day. Of the main, or part reasons Schwinn won out the competition in the 1960's was superior chrome. All other bikes rusted quick. Or to put it another way, the kids with other than Schwinn wished their parents could have afforded one, , once the chrome started rusting, flaking and  pealing.  paint faded, and parts broke

Anyway, It might be an 50's-70's rack, cause although the other bike companies made rust buckets, there were different makers who sold accessories back then that actually undercoated chrome, go figure? lol

However, I'll tell ya one thing I observed. Keep in mind I had eye's on all Schwinn's from say, 1964-5 into the 70's although cruiser's were out. . The fastback of Schwinn fell fast too, hardly even got a start for that matter. But,, You could see, listen to other kids tease about one Schwinn deluxe stingray, wasn't as good as another's, therefore wasn't deluxe. Because the independent dealers or factory mix-matched parts according to your budget. I.E. not all deluxe stingray's had springers. Not all American's had tanks or 2 speed kickback or front brakes etc. You could have seen identical models but one was full deluxe and the other plain stingray but caliper front brakes  with a deluxe chain guard. and visa versa etc. etc. etc. be it factory or dealers the parts were getting mix matched new right out of the Schwinn store. 

And let me tell ya, the kid who had the full deluxe as shown by catalog and or all the goodies brand spanking new, was generally the guy who'd be picking on the one who didn't have it all, lol. And then running out and buying the missing parts, didn't win the 'discussion'.  It would go like this: Ya but that's not the way it was sold, so, it's still not as good as mine!". 

That's what makes it so hard for folks to figure out what's what. The catalogs didn't show all of the annual stock exactly as  the dealers were pushing. And of course there's time, repairing them with miscellaneous mix matched parts too. 

Not true for the majority huffy/Murray (In the 60's you could tell regardless of name their were two major brands with several different labels)  and other similar types because they were sold by the big box stores, Sears, White, Montgomery wards western auto/hardware (western flyer) , K-mart ect. In fact  although would have been nerdy, remember a schweet looking fully dressed red middle weight  at western auto/hardware, collecting dust but, could tell it was either huffy or Murray  and or thin chrome so, although nice looking with all the goodies , would rust quick. You could also knock on the bars and hear how thin or poor the frame was too. Compared to Schwinn which sounded like a rock hard frame,, they were cheap. 

But I do agree, 'It might have been a 3 speed" yet stand, might not too. lol. . 

That's why I'm wondering about that hub. It would be too difficult and expensive  to remount the rim to a coaster, and new different sized spokes to change it over.,  and cheaper to just replace one.  So, figuring out its time frame would add more to the 'final answer' ?_


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