# The Dawn of Motobikes and Truss Rods



## ejlwheels

This is more of a question than an answer.
And I suppose it is really more about bicycle marketing since I am wondering
not about when bicycles became real motorcycles, but when bicycles became fake motorcycles.

Krautwaggen's suggestion that the truss rods on his mystery fork were an afterthought got me thinking.  The rods on his fork











and those on my Michigan City Excelsior fork are nearly identical, but the forks, specifically their crowns, are not.




Its seems likely to me that these rod setups were designed to be added to plain forks that builders had on hand so that they could get in line with emerging motorbike fad without a lot of investment.  It also seems that motobike frames started appearing first without truss rods and the rods and tanks were added later as the trend became undeniable.  




*So my questions are:

which was the first Motobike?
which was the first tank?
which were the first truss rods?*


The second 2 are relatively straightforward, 
but the first question depends upon how you define motobike.
How about two top bars and some kind of marketing reference to imitating motorcycles.




_*With that preamble out of the way,*_


I believe Pope had motobikes as early as 1913, but in the ad I saw they did not have truss rods.
_ sorry,   no     image _


Iver Johnson has a motobike frame in 1914 without truss rods.  



(It has been observed that IJ was conservative in their approach to design, and I have always felt the truss rods they eventually adopted were kind of noncommittal and decorative in the way that they merely look like they are touching the fork.)



By October of 1914, Excelsior has a motobike with a tank and truss rods.






By 1915, Monkey Wards also has a motobike with truss rods and a tank.


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## Nick-theCut

Cool topic.  Motorbikes arrive in the Ranger Bicycles (Mead) catalog in 1915.
I'm sure 1914 was the first year motorbikes were born, but I bet research will show some cool precursor frame types.
I hope you guys will dig up some killer old motorbike ads for those boys too young/fortunate to ride the big boy toys.

I like observing the handlebar styles used on different bike brands/models.  Once they got extremely popular and every model seemed to use the crossbraced bars, California and Tiller styles were used.  Cool stuff.


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## 2jakes

I agree, great topic.

I went on the search engine with this , "first truss rods for bicycle -Patents.
And this comes closest so far. ( It's only a screenshot)





 But this patent 1895 with regards to truss-rods deals with  improving the
stability of the bicycle. Not sure of the specific year, but with the popularity
of the motorbikes of the time period.  Companies like you mentioned as well
as Davis, Harley Davidson, Indian, Schwinn to name a few. Started to promote
ads for kids, capitalizing on the design of the "Motobike".

You are asking questions that I too would love to know.
Which was the first Motobike ? First tank, or truss rods ?




_ My Columbia motobike_

Thanks for sharing & making this a very interesting topic !


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## hoofhearted

*The Dawn of Motobikes and Truss Rods ......*

*Great Topic !!* ... twenty-five .. or so .. years ago I had a fotocopy of an article 
taken from American Motorcyclist and Bicyclist Magazine ... or very-similar title 
..... dated April, 1914.  This date may be deceiving, as there were two publications 
per month issued by that magazine.

The particular topic ... Bicycles Created Upon Motorcycle Design ... something like 
that ... showed a lot of companies participating in the trend o' the day.  Haven't seen 
that article in years ... altho' I can't forget it.

...... patric


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## 2jakes

hoofhearted said:


> *Great Topic !!* ... twenty-five .. or so .. years ago I had a fotocopy of an article
> taken from American Motorcyclist and Bicyclist Magazine ... or very-similar title
> ..... dated April, 1914.  This date may be deceiving, as there were two publications
> per month issued by that magazine.
> 
> The particular topic ... Bicycles Created Upon Motorcycle Design ... something like
> that ... showed a lot of companies participating in the trend o' the day.  Haven't seen
> that article in years ... altho' I can't forget it.
> 
> ...... patric




patric...

 Not 100 % on the following....but before 1928...._American Motorcyclist & Bicyclist_ might have 
 been  known as _Motorcycle & Bicycle Illustrated_

 I emailed the Library of Congress  librarian .They have an inquiry form online.

 Perhaps they can point the way.

 Based on the subject, _Bicycles Created Upon Motorcycle designs, April 1914_
 or similar phrasing.

 I might be "spinning my wheels" ( pun intended )...but it might be worth a try !

_2jakes..._
_member > S.O.T.F.M._ 
********************

*Update :*

From mcad@loc.gov 

Library Question - [#9185378]  Today     7:48 AM CST

_ Library of Congress-Science/Technical Reports has received your question.
You will receive an e-mail message with the answer as soon as possible.
Your question will be assigned to a reference & research specialist who will
contact you with a reply.


Science Reference Services
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20540_

End of message


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## Iverider

This ad was gleaned from the Miami/Flying Merkel Thread. Dated 1913 (No Truss Rods) http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...-Flying-Merkel-Bicycle/page12&highlight=miami




Another 1913 Ad from the Merkel thread SHOWS Truss rods!





And these Ads are from 1909 The Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review. The Double top tube is present, but most other aspects of the bicycles share the design, geometry and general components of their diamond frame counterparts.





I'm fairly confident my frame is Miami built, but can't figure out the fork. Did Miami do a solid crown fork at some point? I'd be interested to see some examples in the early teens if anyone has photos.


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## hoofhearted

*2jakes* ... the magazine had upwards of 5 name-changes between TOC and 1960 (+ / -).

So I am told by one of the librarians at one of the Downtown Branches of the Cincinnati Library.

A hunter / gatherer mission to that place (25 years ago) by Bob Charnley .. Thad Pinnix .. Thad's wife, 
Kay  .. Phil Scott and me resulted in the bunch of us scoring so much lit ... on a 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. session ... 
that my socks developed a bad habit of going up and down, repeatedly.

My back was killin' me ... the third time I mentioned this to the posse ... Bob Charnley reached in to 
the top and back of my jacket and pulled out a 1930-ish wooden clothes-hanger ... that helped !!
Good Form on that ...........


And *Krautwaggen* thank you for posting those ads ... the ads with the Sterling and the Emblem 
bicycles 'could have been'  featured in the same 'early' magazine to which I referenced .. but I used 
a cheezy and god-forsaken title .........

Am including some Christmas-Gift Wrapping Paper ... 'Amish Outlaws In Custody' ... feel free to print 
some of it ... wrap up anything that I typed that bothers you about 'Magazine-Titles' from entry # 4 
of this thread. Place your wrapped items in the re-cycle bin.  *Do Not Use A 3-D Printer !!* 

More on Solid Fork Crowns from Miami Cycle ... maybe later .. when my meds kick in.

...................  patric


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## bricycle

My 2 cents: I am thinking the very narrow parallel bared frames were simply "for added strength" as they do not resemble a moto bike. the wider ones do tho-.


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## Iverider

Highly likely! But I'm curious if the idea came from motorcycles. I posted the earlier ads just as a reference to when the evolution may have started. I don't have enough access to the publications of the time to really define when double top tubes began. Of course earlier motorcycles looked more like bicycles with engines added to them, so one COULD say that these were built to look like motorcycles, but are obviously not the same shape as a motorbike bicycle.


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## 2jakes

bricycle said:


> My 2 cents: I am thinking the very narrow parallel bared frames were simply "for added strength" as they do not resemble a moto bike. the wider ones do tho-.




 Add my 2 ¢ for total of 4¢....

 I totally agree with you  .  
 Based on the long wordy  patent @ 1895 . There's reference to it.
 Initially they were added for "stability"



patric......

Have  you ever written articles or books ?

If you have...please let me know....

If you haven't.... *please START !!!!*
Every time you write....I'm hooked....& that don't happen too often....

Regards
_....2jakes
>S.O.T.F.M._


PS:  I just heard a bell & flash bulb just popped... 
       I hear the splutter...whirrr...klunky sounds of my HP.....

        Gotta save all the wonderful input & illustrations you all are putting out !

Muchas Gracias !


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## fat tire trader

Double top tube frames were made in Europe also, but I don't know how early. As far as I know, tanks on bicycles is very American.


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## bricycle

fat tire trader said:


> Double top tube frames were made in Europe also, but I don't know how early. As far as I know, tanks on bicycles is very American.




...how far do you know?
A). 100ft.
B). 300 yards
C). Infinity


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## fat tire trader

Here's my Hercules.https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=39985F4E5B05639D!1608&authkey=!AN0ifMkZBeV0aqU&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.JPG


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## Nick-theCut

Krautwaggen said:


> Highly likely! But I'm curious if the idea came from motorcycles. I posted the earlier ads just as a reference to when the evolution may have started. I don't have enough access to the publications of the time to really define when double top tubes began. Of course earlier motorcycles looked more like bicycles with engines added to them, so one COULD say that these were built to look like motorcycles, but are obviously not the same shape as a motorbike bicycle.




Enter the 240 cc Shaw Motor...




Here's a 1912 Shaw Motorcycle from Tom Gray's collection found online.



For more pics and couple more killer ads, check out
http://www.tomgraycollection.com/gallery/?album=6&photo=254&occur=1


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## chitown

The Pope Motobike made it's debut at the Chicago Motorcycle and Bicycle Accessory Show in Feb 1913 show here in this ad. This is the first time I've seen the word "Motobike" used for a bicycle. I would say that this is the first to use the motobike design with the camelback top tube and straight lower tube.






As far as double tube designs Excelsior lead the way!

The Excelsior "Twin Truss" from *1906* states "Original Design" and "Double forged crown" They may have been sharing with their English counter parts on some of the design aspects. The first Excelsior motorcycle was a Triumph with a very English design utilizing the double top bar design. 





This 1908 ad also mentions a cantilever truss pattern with I would love to see an example of. I've never seen an early Excelsior before they moved to Michigan City from Chicago.





The 1913 Merkel could very well be the 1st bicycle to use truss rods, though the parallel top tubes make it more a hybrid than the true motobike design with the camelback top bar and the straight under bar.


Most of the teen era truss forks look like they were converted from normal stock with the braces brazed on. Some more aesthetically pleasing than others. Schwinn made a pretty seamless truss rod bracket that they added to their forks. I think because of the demand for raw materials around WWI there may have been necessity to have these modified fork features with truss brackets slapped on a stock fork. The same goes for some of the lower top tubes that have trumpeted ends. They may have been converted camelbacks from old stock frames. Why  else would you have beautiful flush joint construction on all the joinery, except the lower top tube??? The boy scouts movement played a big part in this new marketing strategy for the early motobikes.


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## jkent

*The Sensation Of The Year!*

1915 Arrow Kind of hard to read the lit. but kinda interesting. The heading reads The Sensation of the Year.



Here is the link to the Nostalgic web page for it it's a little bit easier to read from there.
http://www.nostalgic.net/user/uploadfolder/aro.JPG


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## fordsnake

We're in agreement the early Motor-Bike or Motor-Cycle, was nothing less then a typical straight bar diamond frame with a motor attached.




Between 1902- 1914, a new two-wheel paradigm evolved. Bikes had fizzled and lost interest amongst the consumer...almost every bike maker recognized this diminishing trend and had a motorbike, either in production or on the drawing board to recapture brand loyalty. 

Machismo, speed and convenience suddenly fell in alignment for the average man with the motorcycle.  The excitement and thrill of witnessing a motorbike roaring down a street, or competing for a victory lap around a board track was  exhilarating. Many motorcycle competitions and challenges sprang up across the countryl held on tracks, country roads, mud, gravel, rocks, and dirt! For a manufacturer to be a winner, their products had to endure and prevail under these harsh conditions. Hence the need for truss rods, then later the introduction of rear and front suspensions for comfort and stability.  

One of the earliest engineer of the front and rear suspension on motorcycles was Joseph Merkel of the Merkel brand. It stands to reason that Merkel (an ex-bike part mfg) would introduced truss supports on his Flying Merkel to replicate its big brother, pre-dating other bicycle makers by a few years? Check out the ad copy featured in 1913.


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## dave the wave

*picture time*

this is my hawthorne deluxe with corbin two speed.it has block chain.maybe cantilever? i don't know the year,maybe we can pinpoint that.


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## dave the wave

one more..........


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## fordsnake

dave the wave said:


> this is my hawthorne deluxe with corbin two speed.it has block chain.maybe cantilever? i don't know the year,maybe we can pinpoint that.




I think this frame style is considered a "courier" or "delivery" bike?

I found these two images.


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## hoofhearted

*"*patric......

Have  you ever written articles or books ?

If you have...please let me know....

If you haven't.... *please START !!!!*
Every time you write....I'm hooked....& that don't happen too often....*"*

Regards
_....2jakes
>S.O.T.F.M._


=====================================================
*The Above is a quote from 2jakes* *.......*


Hey to *2jakes* ... thank you for that compliment.  I wrote for four years ... 
in conjunction with a great group of friends ... Classic Bicycle News ... specialized 
in the bicycle badge arena .. the column was called ... The Soul Searchers ... 

Having worked with junior-high school students for thirty-years in the same classroom 
.. I picked up that these young'uns don't take to learning 'art-stuff' ... if it does not 
appeal to the Right-Hemisphere of their brain. I bothered to make the learning process 
rather on the fun side.

The subject area was Art .. perceptual and conceptual.  Visual drawing and painting ... 
also tossed in sculpture .. and ceramics .. both hand built and potter's wheel.

What the children learned were concepts, processes and factual info .. all food for the 
Left Brain.  Art does not come from the Left Brain .. perception and expression skills are 
built in the Right-Hemisphere.  Pausing now and then to share a little story with these 
children .. gave a chance for their Left-Hemisphere to incubate on what it gathered _and_
provided a place of rest for the left brain.

Their Right-Hemisphere could then utilize the nutrition -- that was 'cooked' in the Left-Brain Oven.

This is kinda like someone tryin' to explain why cotton-candy occurs ........

Thanks Again .....

................  patric cafaro

> S.O.T.F.M.
**********

Post Script ... peep these Flying Pigeon Bicycles ... from China .....
















 

... gonna try to enlarge the Hudson ad ... yippee ..... success with the Hudson enlargement in Entry # 25 of this thread ...


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## bricycle

...are you guy's TRYING to arouse me???????


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## dave the wave

*1916 hawthorne catalog.*

here ya go..


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## dave the wave

more pics....


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## hoofhearted

...................  













Dave The Wave ... added a little horsepower to your Montgomery Ward - MARATHON pics .........  patric

Chitown ... did the same with your submissions .. 1906 / 1908 Chicago Excelsior bicycles .... p.


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## fordsnake

The start of this thread began with 3 simple questions:

#1: which was the first Motobike?  
#2: which was the first tank?
#3: which were the first truss rods? 

So far we've established questions #1 as Pope,  and #3 - being the Flying Merkel!

So do we have any relevant information that predates 1913?


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## dave the wave

unless we can get pics. of 1913 catalogs that someone would like to share.mine only go back to1915.


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## 2jakes

fordsnake said:


> The start of this thread began with 3 simple questions:
> 
> #1: which was the first Motobike?
> #2: which was the first tank?
> #3: which were the first truss rods?
> 
> So far we've established questions #1 as Pope,  and #3 - being the Flying Merkel!
> 
> So do we have any relevant information that predates 1913?




Update: From Library of Congress :

They have sent me info specific to the time frame we are
all establishing. There are articles & magazines from back 
 then. I'm out on the tennis courts right now punishing a fuzzy 
ball. Hard to type on this tiny iphone.  
_ ............2jakes
_
> S.O.T.F.M.
**********


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## fordsnake

I have access to several pre 1914 bicycle & motorcycle magazines and bulletins.  The Flying Merkel ad I posted is from a 1913 Spokane Cycle and Supply Co. catalog.

I haven't found anything pre Merkel? Except for the transformation in transportation...check out the evolution of this masthead. At the start of things, it was bicycles & archery...archery was quickly dropped, and the bicycle became our passion and our obsession during the 1800's.  By 1912, the bicycle had become a subset to the motorcycle!


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## 2jakes

hoofhearted said:


> *2jakes* ... the magazine had upwards of 5 name-changes between TOC and 1960 (+ / -).
> 
> So I am told by one of the librarians at one of the Downtown Branches of the Cincinnati Library.
> 
> A hunter / gatherer mission to that place (25 years ago) by Bob Charnley .. Thad Pinnix .. Thad's wife ..
> Phil Scott and me resulted in the bunch of us scoring so much lit ... on a 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. session ...
> that my socks developed a bad habit of going up and down, repeatedly.
> 
> My back was killin' me ... the third time I mentioned this to the posse ... Bob Charnley reached in to
> the top and back of my jacket and pulled out a 1930-ish wooden clothes-hanger ... that helped !!
> Good Form on that ... *member > S.O.T.F.M. *
> 
> 
> More on Solid Fork Crowns from Miami Cycle ... maybe later .. when my meds kick in.
> 
> 
> 
> ..........*patric*
> Hope you are feeling better. I can relate to the back problem.
> My headaches usually last a minimum of 3 days non-stop.
> When the pain subsides ...Life is beautiful once again...
> 
> Anyway,
> This is what the Library of Congress replied:
> 
> quote:
> _The Library of Congress does not hold this title,have you tried the
> University of Texas at Austin's Harry Ransom Library. According to OCLC's
> WorldCat, this library holds Motorcycle & Bicycle Illustrated. However,
> I think that particular title started in with v. 13, no. 19, May 10, 1917,
> so you would need the earlier tittle for April 1914 and that would be
> Monocycle Illustrated. Again, from OCLC's WorldCat, it looks as though
> Los Angeles Public Library might be your best bet. They are listed as
> having 1911-1917. You might also try the Ransom Library at the
> University of Texas Ransom Library because it may also hold the earlier
> work. Sometimes libraries only list the latest title. You can check WorldCat
> yourself at < http://www.worlcat.org/ to see listing of other libraries holding
> this title. It may be easier to use the advanced search, although I believe
> you can find it on the simple search.
> Sincerely,
> Constance Carter
> Head, Science Reference_....end quote
> 
> 2jakes
> > S.O.T.F.M.


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## chitown

2jakes said:


> You can check WorldCat
> yourself at < http://www.worlcat.org/ to see listing of other libraries holding
> this title. It may be easier to use the advanced search, although I believe
> you can find it on the simple search.




Searching in g00gle books, you can click "find a library" tab on the left side. This will also link you into the worldcat site.

http://books.google.com/books?id=V2...a=X&ei=9kW0UtWCFOjcyQGD8IDYBg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAg

This 1913 Motorcycle Ill magazine can be found at the University of Michigan. 

Libraries are where these printed paper, history keyholes should be. There is an effort by http://www.hathitrust.org/ to partner with libraries and universities in scanning important documents held in various libraries and special collections.

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433023692019;view=1up;seq=5


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## rustyspoke66

Killer! Just spent the last three hours looking at this magazine.


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## hoofhearted

ONE OF THE CABE MEMBERS posted this foto of Buster Keaton and Sybil Seely ... 
on an un-named parallel-bar bulldog or motorbike.

Am totally diggin' the ride ... very-Spartan ... no fenders .. but has my all-time 
favorite chain-ring ... The Fauber Fancy ..... 

Aarrrrgh ... i wants me that bike ... but would be _almost_ as happy knowin' who 
the manufacturer was.

.............  patric





  (Horsepower added with paint.net)


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## 2jakes

hoofhearted said:


> ONE OF THE CABE MEMBERS posted this foto of Buster Keaton and Sybil Seely ...
> on an un-named parallel-bar bulldog or motorbike.
> 
> Am totally diggin' the ride ... very-Spartan ... no fenders .. but has my all-time
> favorite chain-ring ... The Fauber Fancy .....
> 
> Aarrrrgh ... i wants me that bike ... but would be _almost_ as happy knowin' who
> the manufacturer was.
> 
> 
> **********************************************
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Buster Keaton & Sybil Seely > 1920s_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Farmer Hanger >1890s_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _my Fauber hanger >1899_


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## bricycle

So where are the pics of this "Dawn" chick???


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## 2jakes

bricycle said:


> So where are the pics of this "Dawn" chick???






*Dawn chick...*???


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## bricycle

yea... "Dawn" of the Motorbikes!


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## 2jakes

bricycle said:


> yea... "Dawn" of the Motorbikes!







_The first motorbike > Gottlieb Daimler > 1885..._




_Gottlieb Daimler used a new engine invented by engineer
Nicolaus Otto. Otto invented the first "4-stroke comb. Engine"
>1876. As soon as he completed his engine, Daimler 
(a former Otto employee) built it into a motorcycle.

The best  part of this story...".there was no one around to tell Daimler
that it was not period correct or he was destroying an original & the paint
or restoration was over done.."..._


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## Iverider

_my Fauber hanger >1899_[/QUOTE]

Seeing CrowneKing's collection in person, I noticed he had a lot of these "heart murmur" style fauber rings on many of his bikes. I believe they were offered on a good number of Great Western Mfg. bicycles being that they were made in Kokomo, IN. Great Western was based in LaPorte, IN.


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## bricycle

not "Dawn" but probably better looking.....


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## 2jakes

Krautwaggen said:


> Seeing CrowneKing's collection in person, I noticed he had a lot of these "heart murmur" style fauber rings on many of his bikes. I believe they were offered on a good number of Great Western Mfg. bicycles being that they were made in Kokomo, IN. Great Western was based in LaPorte, IN.






 






_(America's Munitions >1917-1918 > Benedict Crowell Ass't Sec. of War )_


ok...so about 21,000 overseas....hmm... wonder how many still here in good old USA ...


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## hoofhearted

Military Bicycles of American Forces during WW-1 ...







Just above is a Great Western Military Bicycle (LaPorte, Indiana)














So ... what kind of wheels did each of these Military Bicycles have ??  *Steel Clinchers*

In addition to 'Remember The Alamo' ... 'Remember The Maine' ... *remember* that there is an entire 
section on The CABE dedicated to Military Bicycles.  I happen to know there is good stuff there ...... 
regarding WW-1 ...... WW-2 .. also.

.............  patric


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## chitown

Here are the bicycle orders below the motorcycles and sidecars. The majority are Westfield followed by Great Western and in last Davis Sewing Machine. 

Westfield mfg: 22,502
Great Western: 3,750
Davis Sewing:   3,252

29,504 Total
-26,407 Shipped overseas
*3097 stayed in US
*

Looks like Westfield got the lions share of the contract.


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## hoofhearted

Dayton Military Model Bicycle ... 1918






..............  patric


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## 2jakes

.

   ._< Cycling Magazine > _
.







 A grandfather started cycling at five miles each day when he was sixty. He's ninety-eight now,
 and nobody knows where the hell he is...  

 *** patric ...I didn't make this up....I just notice it ...


_2jakes_


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## filmonger

Can we add ( to fordsnake's simple question list ) ...... when did the first camel back appear?


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## Iverider

What vintage is this bicycle? It does have truss rods even though it's not the traditional motobike frame. 



fordsnake said:


> I think this frame style is considered a "courier" or "delivery" bike?


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## tailhole

*Love it*

Love this great info. The old catalog photos are fantastic!


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## 2jakes

*Premier 1908*




_The Online Bicycle Museum  >>> _www.OldBike.eu


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## filmonger

To answer Brian - I have the Miami Carry all in my 1914 Racycle Cat. It is very similar to my Gendron though it does not have a truss set up.


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## Iverider

Thanks!

Your Gendron is a nice looking bike!

I'm surprised it hasn't sold yet.

Sent your parts this morning btw.


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## fat tire trader

*1915 Mead Ranger Superbe*

The 1915 Mead catalog shows only one model with truss rods. The Ranger Superbe


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## Balloontyre

fat tire trader said:


> The 1915 Mead catalog shows only one model with truss rods. The Ranger Superbe



Are there any detailed pics of the truss fork, or descriptions of construction?
Thank you for posting this.


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## fat tire trader

There are no detailed pictures nor descriptions in the 1915 and 1916 catalogs, just the one picture of the Motorbike Model Ranger-Superbe.


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## Balloontyre

*Still looking for a bike photo*



fat tire trader said:


> There are no detailed pictures nor descriptions in the 1915 and 1916 catalogs, just the one picture of the Motorbike Model Ranger-Superbe.



Thank you Chris,
I'm hopeful someone has a 15/16 Ranger Motorbike that can share a pic of fork. 
Ivo


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## SKPC

Bump this.     So is the tank question then definitively known to be 1914?    Seems that the Moto-Bikes,  or "freak-bikes" were on the rise in the late teens as demanded by rebellious, ratter("aper") kids into the late 30's...... Very interesting old op-ed article by @2jakes on these style of bikes. Post#45


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## AdvenJack

I enjoyed reading through this thread tonight. An aspect that became quite a focus was
handlebar shape/size. To my eye many of the different handlebars did not look attractive.
At this point, I find these two to have the most appeal.


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## gben

The best post here is 2jakes showing the Cycling magazine article about moto-bikes. I could have written it myself.  The appearance of the moto-bike on the market signaled the end of the bicycles that were cutting-edge transportation and technology and the birth of the bicycle as just another fashionable pile of consumer-goods marketed to the shallow-minded who were caught in consumerism and fashion-trends.  It signaled the change in the motivation of manufacturers to design the best machinery from the best materials to designing what was fashionable out of very average and cheap materials. Real cyclists will always choose a bike that puts performance first over fashion. The moto-bikes and fat-tire bikes appeal to the same sort of people now that they appealed to when they first appeared in the late teens, not real cyclists but materialists and hipsters who got their security from owning something that was trendy. The true TOC bikes, those that pre-date the late-teens and moto-bikes were the golden-age of cycling in the USA, after that everything was just fashionable, cheap consumer-goods motivated by corporate profits, except for the very, very few hand-made bikes actually used by real racers and cyclists. The only badge that should be on the head of any moto-bike or fat-tire bike, muscle-bike etc. is "Game Over".


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## SKPC

gben said:


> The best post here is 2jakes showing the Cycling magazine article about moto-bikes.   Real cyclists will always choose a bike that puts performance first over fashion..



  While I don't necessarily completely agree with this, I do believe that performance comes first...sorta like form follows function..


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## ItIsWhatItIs

I guess I am in the 'unreal cyclist' basket...I didn't even know there was a membership application to be a real cyclist. Is there a test?


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## Archie Sturmer

I guess my bikes are unreal too; put me in the category of value biker without all the bestest of the bestest materials - at cost.
Cutting edge experiments often fail; I prefer the proven producible designs over the fashionable boutiques bikes, (except maybe for my 1986 Panasonic DX-2000 “handmade” 10-speed 27”).
Thank you mail order catalog companies.


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