# 1945 BFG DX



## GTs58 (Nov 23, 2021)

So I've been wondering why all the first postwar Schwinns were said to be 1946 models and nobody has ever posted a 1945 piece, even though Schwinn produced 98,185 units in 1945. Most all were retail pieces. So here is what I believe to be a retail 1945 BFG DX. Serial F80640














Black out nipples?





Stand tube welded on a 25/30 degree angle





First attempt of Electro Forging the chain stays.





Here's the serial number.


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## GTs58 (Nov 23, 2021)

@Freqman1  picked up this one a while back that also has the F serial with 5 digits. I can't see the details but it might also be an early pre postwar piece.


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## GTs58 (Nov 24, 2021)

Thanks to @Hastings great detail shots of his DX, I'd like to add it here for reference. Another early pre postwar piece with one of those serial numbers that has been said to be mis-stamped and then classified as a 1946 model. This one is earlier than a 1946 build but it meets all the criteria for a 46 plus it has a few other details that a 1946 and later models don't have. These details are the early EF'd chain stay joints tight against the BB shell along with the kickstand tube being on a 25/30 degree angle. The postwar 46 and later models had the stand tube on a 45 degree angle and the EF joints progressively moved further out from the BB shell. Another 1945 DX displaying another step in the evolution of Schwinn's ongoing electro-forged frame building. 














*Here's a later model (46-47) for comparison. *














						Schwinn dx year? | All Things Schwinn
					

Hello, long time reader, first time poster. First of all thank you! The amount of information on this site is outstanding! I’m just trying to nail down what year this dx is?  Ive learned here that it’s post war and pre ‘52 as well as “h” could have been used in ‘51 or ‘45/6? Bike has black out...




					thecabe.com


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## Jimmy V (Nov 28, 2021)

I caught this post and thought that my bike might fit in here. I presumed it to be a 46. I wasn’t aware that Schwinn made many, or any bikes in 45. The rear wheel has a blackout ND hub. The front wheel looks to be from a later bike. I picked this up earlier this year at a flea market. It was marketed as a garden bike. It had a wood box screwed into the seat post. I put a seat on it and was riding it that evening. There is blue paint through the haze of rust. It should clean up pretty well. Winter project.


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## GTs58 (Nov 28, 2021)

Thank you for posting your example @Jimmy V ! This is getting to be a real fun research subject! Looks like your stays are actually pushed into the BB shell and then fused with the shell actually dimpling it inward. Crazy, and this is the second one I've seen like that! Plus yours has a B series serial number and the stand tube is at the lesser angle. I just came across a B serial "1946" piece that had the stand tube on the 45 degree angle a few minutes ago. With all the examples that I've looked at over the last three days using the angle of the stand tubes as a reference along with the welds, the serial number range includes F-H-A-B and C. And some of the A - B - C serials I've come across have the stand tube on the 45 degree angle. Since the BB shells are pre-stamped with the serial numbers prior to being used in building a frame, I'm beginning to think there might be something more going on here throwing a wrench in the dating of these first post war pieces. 

Here's a B serial where the stand tube is at the 45 and the stay welds are not jammed tight at the BB shell. From what I've seen so far, I'm getting the idea that the B-C serials were possibly used in two or maybe even three different years. Yours is B79891 and the one below is B86137.


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## rollfaster (Nov 29, 2021)

Not sure where this one falls in..


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## BFGforme (Nov 29, 2021)

I to have a '45 DX that I'll post some pictures when I can get to it, I sent some pics to @Junkman Bob maybe he still has them!


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## Jimmy V (Nov 29, 2021)

@GTs58 thanks for your reply and for your research on these.  It's always fun to learn about these bikes and to try to solve the often mysterious histories of how things were done. Based on your research and thoughts about the assembly process (stays in relation to the BB shell and stand tube angle) and the blackout hub I'm inclined to presume it's a '45. 
I hope to clean it up over the winter, service, good tires, and ride it.  I'll post progress pictures as I make progress...
I'll look forward to other's posts and follow this thread to learn and see what other similar bikes are out there!


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## Junkman Bob (Nov 29, 2021)

BFGforme said:


> I to have a '45 DX that I'll post some pictures when I can get to it, I sent some pics to @Junkman Bob maybe he still has them!



I had to clean out my phone due too storage issue … I do remember it had the less extreme angled stand tube … Sorry I couldn’t be more help on this one 
Bob


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## GTs58 (Nov 29, 2021)

Here's one that was sold here. It has the tubular stay fender bridge, lesser angle stand, chain stay welds tight to the BB and a raised AS seat post clamp bolt. Serial number C49757. So the 1946 tubular fender bridge is said to be rare? A carry over detail from the prewar models?  Is that another indication this is earlier than 1946? 













More pictures in John's FS listing. 









						Sold - 48 Schwinn Dx badged Cavalier | Archive (sold)
					

For sale is a very nice 48 schwinn dx badged cavalier. Morrow skiptooth hub, nice painted drop centers and sweetheart chainring. Red paint was polished before I got it and has a real nice shine to it. Fenders have very few scratches on them and are very nice. Been all gone through, greased and...




					thecabe.com


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## GTs58 (Nov 29, 2021)

Here's @mrg 's 1946 or ? with the tubular fender bridge and 25/30 degree stand tube.


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## BFGforme (Nov 30, 2021)

@GTs58  finally got some pictures of mine.... think it might be'45 what you thin


















Thinking it could be a '45 maybe? Was originally red I believe, but faded into a mead brown sorta..... it's for sale.... cheap... unless it's a'45... LoL kickstand was replaced at some point I believe, but if it is'46 or earlier, I have correct stand for it!!


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## BFGforme (Nov 30, 2021)

BFGforme said:


> @GTs58  finally got some pictures of mine.... think it might be'45 what you thinView attachment 1520197
> 
> View attachment 1520198
> 
> ...



@GTs58 what you think???


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## BFGforme (Nov 30, 2021)

Really nice original welds....lol at least, untouched


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## GTs58 (Nov 30, 2021)

Thanks for your contribution @BFGforme , nice! With those very early production details I firmly believe that's a 1945 build, and with no doubts. Most of these so far have also been painted Red. Many of the seasoned experts would say that's a very early 1946 model, but for some reason not a single person even mentions that it could be one of the 98,000 + 1945's that were built. Those EF welds on your stays indicate the very beginning of the frame building during this time. They progressively changed in little baby steps over the next three years. And to make the changes new stamping dies for the BB shells had to be made. Fun stuff!


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## BFGforme (Nov 30, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> Thanks for your contribution @BFGforme , nice! With those very early production details I firmly believe that's a 1945 build, and with no doubts. Most of these so far have also been painted Red. Many of the seasoned experts would say that's a very early 1946 model, but for some reason not a single person even mentions that it could be one of the 98,000 + 1945's that were built. Those EF welds on your stays indicate the very beginning of the frame building during this time. They progressively changed in little baby steps over the next three years. And to make the changes new stamping dies for the BB shells had to be made. Fun stuff!



Right on man! Now I wonder about the 10 or so more I've had that thought were'46! Gotta dig deep to see if those others were'45 also!


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## BFGforme (Nov 30, 2021)

Super cool to know, enjoying this thread!


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## Junkman Bob (Dec 1, 2021)

I agree ….This is a very informative Thread …. Learned a lot …


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## johnboy (Dec 1, 2021)

Hello,I'm really enjoying this discussion and all the photos. I'd like to add another DX with the less angled stand tube. Serial # H20843 This frame does not have the tubular fender mount. There are remnants of the BFG graphics. I got it as a bare frame and added parts I had. Thanks for an informative and fun thread.


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## J-wagon (Dec 2, 2021)

Interesting thread made me look again at my dx. I guesstimate was 1948 BB number E92069. But maybe earlier? Has tubular fender bridge, cannot tell if EF considered tight at Bb/chainstay junction? But 45ish stand angle. Maybe an Exxxxx that is in the 1945 group?


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## 51Resorter (Dec 3, 2021)

Is the tubular rear fender mount a steel tube or rolled sheet like the prewar models?


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## J-wagon (Dec 3, 2021)

51Resorter said:


> Is the tubular rear fender mount a steel tube or rolled sheet like the prewar models?



I took a pic. Is this maybe rolled?


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## 51Resorter (Dec 3, 2021)

J-wagon said:


> I took a pic. Is this maybe rolled?
> View attachment 1521500



That's the later, post-war style which is more of a U channel.  Here is an example of the pre-war rolled sheet type.


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## mrg (Dec 3, 2021)

Early postwar tubular style!


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## 51Resorter (Dec 3, 2021)

mrg said:


> Early postwar tubular style!View attachment 1521866



Is it a solid pipe or rolled sheet metal; no joint along the fender side like pre-war?


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## mrg (Dec 3, 2021)

Never paid that close attention and don't own any right now but seems like a tube.


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## BFGforme (Dec 3, 2021)

mrg said:


> Early postwar tubular style!View attachment 1521866View attachment 1521867
> View attachment 1521868



Just like he showed mine


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## BFGforme (Dec 3, 2021)

Funny crappy weld on mine


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## BFGforme (Dec 3, 2021)

Gotta love it


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## Just Jeff (Dec 4, 2021)

Maybe my project fits into this grey area too. Tubular upper rear fender stay, rear stays welded close to the bb hanger,  and kickstand tube welded at the less than 45 degree angle. B serial number with 5 digits. Always was told that made for an early 1946, but perhaps in reality it is a 1945?


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## GTs58 (Dec 4, 2021)

Thanks for your contribution @Just Jeff ! That sure fits the profile for the early pieces!

Here's another BFG DX, in Red, that has a black out New Departure rear hub, early stand angle and stay welds. Can't clearly see the rear fender bridge so that's in question, but it does appear to be the U shaped piece. The serial is C97363 and a pretty high number being 97000 + stampings after mrg's C00465 number. It's been sold and the possible buyer may be able to verify the rear fender bridge. @Jrodarod









						Sold - 1947 Schwinn DX men's project $150 | Archive (sold)
					

Here's a 47 Schwinn DX project with nice paint and many of the parts that you need. The paint cleans up easily and will shine brightly.   Parts included:  Frame, headbadge, kickstand Correct fork (questionable paint) Schwinn approved front wheel with hub polisher and surprisingly solid Schwinn...




					thecabe.com


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## GTs58 (Dec 4, 2021)

Here's an interesting thread and from what I've gathered looking at it is, these C12345 serial numbers are a total mess and it really looks like Schwinn had no numerical order as far as using the stamped shells at any particular time in the months or even the years during this time.  A DX with the number C43650 has all the early production indications including the rolled prewar style rear fender bridge. Then the one in this interesting thread has a C22324 serial number and the stay welds are further out from the BB shell, the fender bridge is the U type and it appears the stand tube is on a 45% angle. This blows any serial number build order out of the water. Looks like parts fishing, just go the parts pond and pull out any old part that has been in the pond for months and then use it to build a frame. Now I can see why everyone claims all the bikes built in 1945-46-47 are all 1946 models.








						Schwinn DX serial number | All Things Schwinn
					

I have a question about a serial number on a schwinn Dx frame.  I look up the serial number and it states the bike was built in 1952 but the number is under the  bottom bracket which leads me to believe that it can't be a 1952 built bike.  The serial number is c22324.  Does anyone know if it...




					thecabe.com
				




And here's the frame that's the main topic in that thread and said to be a 1946. Serial C22324.










Here's a little information so you can understand how this can happen. In 1937 Schwinn started machine stamping all the serial numbers on the bikes component. Contrary to what was said in that interesting thread, these numbers were stamped on the part before it was used to build a frame. So the BB shells were made and numbered and then put in a stock bucket and used at some point to build a frame. This is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to date a bike by it's serial number alone. There was no specific order that these serial stamped components were used in 1945 and later! Since these C serial stamped pieces were used at different periods after the war I believe that Schwinn started producing them even before they started the retail production of the 1945 models and possibly the B serial components were made soon after they completed the C series and had those stocked up for some time. This being something similar to what happened when the 1980 Schwinn strike took place. No bike production for 13 weeks at the end of 1980 and into early 1981. But during that strike down time, Schwinn produced 999,999 head tubes that were stamped with MR serial numbers. Then after the strike, production began and all these MR 1980 head tubes were used and used thru the 1981 production and a few have shown up on some 1982 models. So these C serials were not used in any specific production period, meaning month or even year and totally out of any numerical order.

More history on Schwinn's production changes. In 1940 Schwinn introduced the rear fork end drop outs on the New Worlds. These new rear drop out fork ends were also electro-forged to the chain and seat stays. Then sometime in late 1941 or early 1942 beginning with some of the I series serial numbers, the bottom bracket shells were made from pieces of flat steel then rolled and electro forged together. So you'll see the slag on these I series 1942 one piece crank shells that were used on the war time New Worlds. Then by mid 1942 with the J series serial numbers you'll find the seat mast EF'd to the BB shell and a full blown electro-forged head tube with the top tubes and down tubes EF'd to the head tubes. So all this happened shortly after the war started. Schwinn may have been designing/engineering new production methods all during the war and it wouldn't surprise me if they started stamping out and making parts like the new BB shells for the balloon models, with serial numbers, sometime in 1944. No documentation on that, but seeing the hodge podge use of the these post war serial stamped BB shells, it's very possible. At this point, I don't think the C series serial is specific to any single post war year.


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## GTs58 (Dec 5, 2021)

The more I see the more I'm baffled. Here's Barry's @barneyguey "1946?" E-Z SPEED badged DX. Super high B serial and all the early production signs including the rolled rear fender bridge. And it's Red! 😂 1945 manufacture?


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## BFGforme (Dec 5, 2021)

Even has the same crappy welds on bridge that mine does..  LoL


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## GTs58 (Dec 5, 2021)

BFGforme said:


> Even has the same crappy welds on bridge that mine does..  LoL




That prewar type fender bridge has to be the deciding factor that the frames having them were on Schwinn's very first retail production. Ever come across a 1946? B6 cantilever model with that fender bridge?


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## Oilit (Dec 5, 2021)

Here's another B serial, no black out parts, the later kickstand and fender bridge, but are these brazed chain stays?


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## GTs58 (Dec 5, 2021)

Looks like a much later EF joint to me @Oilit since it's so clean. And it looks like the nubs for the stay butting are protruding further out from the shell. But on a B serial numbered shell? How can that be? I marked where it looks like the two pieces were joined. This shell looks like a different stamping with the nubs being the same diameter as the tubing with the two pieces butted. The early ones look like the tubing goes over a tapered nub.


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## GTs58 (Dec 5, 2021)

My idea that Schwinn was totally scrambled during the early post war years has pretty much been proven here. No order what so ever on the time line that any of the serial stamped shells were used. The first picture is Barry's piece above and the second one is of the DX that oilit just posted. All the details are different and Barry's is the earlier build (45?) with the serial number that's much higher.







B82978





B34044


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## BFGforme (Dec 5, 2021)

It is bazaar and weird, surprised no it all hasn't chimed in yet! Is pretty weird have had lots that were newer but older numbers...


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## Oilit (Dec 6, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> Looks like a much later EF joint to me @Oilit since it's so clean. And it looks like the nubs for the stay butting are protruding further out from the shell. But on a B serial numbered shell? How can that be? I marked where it looks like the two pieces were joined. This shell looks like a different stamping with the nubs being the same diameter as the tubing with the two pieces butted. The early ones look like the tubing goes over a tapered nub.
> 
> View attachment 1522906



It makes sense that with the war winding down they would start stockpiling parts to re-start production. What makes it hard is that they were still working out the new "electroforging" process at the same time. But you're right, the design changes look like a better guide to the dates than the serial numbers.


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## Oilit (Jan 3, 2022)

And looking at @J-wagon's bike along with mine, it looks like they did clean up the chain stay welds on some of the late '40's bikes (maybe after moving the weld farther out from the bottom bracket?), but finally decided it was more trouble than it was worth.


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## Just Jeff (Jan 19, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> The more I see the more I'm baffled. Here's Barry's @barneyguey "1946?" E-Z SPEED badged DX. Super high B serial and all the early production signs including the rolled rear fender bridge. And it's Red! 😂 1945 manufacture?
> 
> View attachment 1522729
> 
> ...





Just an update. Barry’s old Dx is the one I’ve got now. And while stripping the paint today I found it was original dark red (maroon). As soon as it’s completely stripped I will post some pictures of the key areas of difference to the later post war frames if anyone is interested.


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## GTs58 (Jan 19, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Just an update. Barry’s old Dx is the one I’ve got now. And while stripping the paint today I found it was original dark red (maroon). As soon as it’s completely stripped I will post some pictures of the key areas of difference to the later post war frames if anyone is interested.




I can't wait to see it naked! These were the first to have the down tubes EF'd to the BB shell also. So some shots of that joint would be great. The war time New Worlds and that I've seen only had the seat post EF'd to the BB shell. I'm not real sure if at some point with the later war time J and K serials if that happened.


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## GTs58 (Oct 11, 2022)

Something quite different has shown up in the last few days. After looking at these two specimens I'm thinking they were made pretty early in the 1945 pre-post war production. Both do not appear to have the chain stays electro-welded, they appear to be hand welded like the prewar frames. So these were most likely built right before Schwinn started electro-forging the chain stays. C and B serial numbers. The first electro forged stays were also on 1945 frames with C and B serials. 

Here's Conrad K's early 45 DX ladies. Serial C42997














This one is @BF2485 's 1945 DX that is currently for sale here. Serial B35090 and the chain stays also look to be hand welded, not electro-forged.  

More pictures here. 








						Reduced - 1945 Schwinn DX 26" Barn Find B35090 Serial Number | Sell - Trade: Complete Bicycles
					

Anyone interested in an early PRE post war 1945 Schwinn Balloon Bike ?  This is 1 of 98000 early post war bikes! Blackout ND hubs, dogleg crank, drop center wheels, pencil kickstand, Torrington pedals. Legit barn find ! Great project!! Very early method of holding kickstand into frame , not a...




					thecabe.com


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## BF2485 (Oct 12, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> Something quite different has shown up in the last few days. After looking at these two specimens I'm thinking they were made pretty early in the 1945 pre-post war production. Both do not appear to have the chain stays electro-welded, they appear to be hand welded like the prewar frames. So these were most likely built right before Schwinn started electro-forging the chain stays. C and B serial numbers. The first electro forged stays were also on 1945 frames with C and B serials.
> 
> Here's Conrad K's early 45 DX ladies. Serial C42997
> 
> ...


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## BF2485 (Oct 12, 2022)

I am starting to think that i should keep mine , if it is something truly rare


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## Boris (Oct 13, 2022)

Thanks to @GTs58 for this thread. Identified as 1945 by the B84XXX serial number, I'm having difficulty trying to figure out what possible headbadge might fit the silhouette left behind on this headtube. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, does anyone know if this seat could possibly be correct for this bike?


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## GTs58 (Oct 13, 2022)

Boris said:


> Thanks to @GTs58 for this thread. Identified as 1945 by the B84XXX serial number, I'm having difficulty trying to figure out what possible headbadge might fit the silhouette left behind on this headtube. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, does anyone know if this seat could possibly be correct for this bike?
> View attachment 1711845
> 
> View attachment 1711846




Might need the help of @barneyguey for the badge ID. It sure doesn't look like a common outline. Are either one of those tires a War Time issue?


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## Boris (Oct 13, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> Might need the help of @barneyguey for the badge ID. It sure doesn't look like a common outline. Are either one of those tires a War Time issue?



Sent you a PM.


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## GTs58 (Dec 17, 2022)

*The beginning of Schwinn's Pre Postwar Production.*

Another very early piece has shown up here that exhibits Schwinn's early kickstand developments for the new 1946 models. These two examples have what looks like the new built-in kickstand at the beginning stage prior to the electro-forging of the chain stays to the BB shells. Both have the stays welded as the prewar and wartime production but they do have the electro-forged BB shells that showed up on some of the 1942 I series frames, but the down tubes on these were EF'd to the BB. The stand tube is drilled for the small collar retaining pin but the collar just has a long cut for the added nail type retaining pin that went horizontally thru the stand tube. (?)  Also the beginning thought of the D bolt for the new removable seat post camp.

This is @BF2485 's very early 1945 DX that is currently for sale here. The serial number is B35090


















Here is @jesus 's very early 45 step thru frame. Serial number B37230.












​


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## Hastings (Dec 29, 2022)

1945 schwinn boys DX Packard badge C97203. original color maroon.  22.5 degree welded stand. Electro boogers. Several repaints.  Dropcenters. Rear hub black out. front schwinn script. Other thing I noticed was the kickstand guts were different. The bottom one is from this bike.


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## Hastings (Jan 3, 2023)

Inside of e f joint dark red 1945 vs light red 1950. I had both in shop apart recently.


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## J-wagon (Jan 3, 2023)

Hastings said:


> Inside of e f joint dark red 1945 vs light red 1950. I had both in shop apart recently. Interesting ridge inside the ‘45



The EF finishing and inside ridge grinding looks rough on your 45. Here's inside of my 1941 Schwinn dx.


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## GTs58 (Jan 4, 2023)

Very interesting kickstand detail @Hastings! A little more R & D on the retaining pin detail and they still had to do some rethinking afterwards. The ridge is slag from the BB tube being EF. I've seen pieces where the slag on the outside is very minor so most of slag may have ended up inside the shell similar to yours. The shot of the 1950 doesn't have the seam in view for a comparison. After looking at the two together it appears the nub stampings on the 1950 are a little wider diameter. With all that slag in the stay holes on the 45 I can't tell if the 50 stamping was also deeper/further out. Very interesting! It's not every day one gets to see the inside details of the BB's! And thanks to @J-wagon, he just brought up another interesting detail that I was not anticipating! A prewar BB shell with punched out nubs for the chain stays? I do see a welded shell seam but it's real clean. Hand welded? Do you have a shot of the outside welds J-wagon? Now I'm wondering when Schwinn started all this. The shell was made from plate steel, the nubs were stamped and then it was rolled and welded together, and this started prewar? Some manufacturers just used tubing and then drilled holes for the tubing joints. With this news, now I can now see why the 1945 models have the stays and EF slag right up against the BB shell. Those nubs on that 41 were designed and used for the stays to slip over and then they were brazed on the outside, not intended to be used when EF the stays to shell. Does anyone happen to know when Schwinn started stamping those nubs on the BB shell?

Thank you Hastings and J-wagon!


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## J-wagon (Jan 4, 2023)

Here are more pics. Hopefully my 1941 dating is correct!


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## GTs58 (Jan 5, 2023)

J-wagon said:


> Here are more pics. Hopefully my 1941 dating is correct!
> View attachment 1762868
> 
> View attachment 1762869
> ...




You had my mind spinning there @J-wagon! Your frame is a 1948 with a very clean looking BB. Although the printed list shows a 0 after the letter, that number was stamped on Oct. 8, 1948. Just another small whoopsie on the list and it's shown up a few times on the frames that were made around the time when Schwinn went to the 6 numbers. I'm guessing the stamping head somewhere around time was upgraded with 7 stamping dies.
Is that frame going to get new paint?

09/24 ------------------ E61778 ------------------- E62054
09/25 ------------------ E62055 ------------------- E67000
09/27 ------------------ E067001 ---------------- E067965
09/28 ------------------ E067966 ---------------- E070835
09/29 ------------------ E070836 ---------------- E077505

10/02 ------------------ E077506 ---------------- E083213
10/05 ------------------ 11973 ------------- 12173 - (WZ)
10/05 ------------------ 1 ---------------- 160 - (24" S-10)
10/07 ------------------ E088017 ---------------- E089140
*10/08 ------------------ E089141 ---------------- E095828*
10/09 ------------------ E095829 ---------------- E096520


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## J-wagon (Jan 5, 2023)

GTs58 said:


> Is that frame going to get new paint?



Good to have the date clarified! 👍👍
I either post for sale 1948 frame or build into raw metal klunker.


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