# Help Id my new project



## Just Jeff (Mar 9, 2021)

On a whim I decided that I wanted an arch bar truss frame. Just a cool frame design in my eye. Saw this one for sale here from a fellow CABE member and bought it. Then my searching began. Even found a post regarding this one saying it’s possibly an Emblem frame. Never could find any pics of a similar frame though.
  This is way out of my wheelhouse knowledge, so any help on manufacturer and age will be greatly appreciated. Hope the pics will allow someone to help unravel this one for me.

First pic is the add from the seller.


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## Just Jeff (Mar 9, 2021)

Frame arrived today and here are some pics.


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## Just Jeff (Mar 9, 2021)

Cranks and sprocket. They have some “age” to them to say the least


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## Just Jeff (Mar 9, 2021)

Forks are interesting as they look to have been nickel plated


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## Just Jeff (Mar 9, 2021)

Forgot the head tube pic


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## Just Jeff (Mar 9, 2021)

Also found this. Bummed only because it will add time to the rebuild. But I can fix it so it’s ok


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## SKPC (Mar 9, 2021)

300k serial # is in line with Emblem #'s.(20's?)  Franken Crank  with the repair, 2" drive pin spacing and rounded inside/peaked outside looks Emblem as well.   Fork not sure as headset is not typical Emblem.   I do know Emblem made arch-bars 100%.  The badge holes have me wondering as they usually were horizontal.   To crack that BB  either it was thrown off a building or jumped by a 400lb rider..  A nice Emblem crankset was recently sold here for $150..









						Feeling Cranky?  Here you go, cranksets, cranks and sprockets. | Sell - Trade: Bicycle Parts, Accessories, Ephemera
					

Cranksets, cranks and sprockets. Iver, elgin, excelsior?, emblem, murray, western flyer, rollfast, columbia, etc Cranksets: $300 for the restored Sears or  Excelsior whatever, $150 for the Emblem, $100 for the Iver crankset, $65 Murray, WF? $85. Sprockets: Starting top left going across- Small...




					thecabe.com


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## Just Jeff (Mar 9, 2021)

Thanks for the reply. Should be a fun project when I have time to fix the frame. I tried the search function here and couldn’t find anything that matched the construction of this frame.

  On a positive for me, the forks are nickel plated. Wether they are original to the frame or not I think they will stay. They fit the frame nicely as is and they have just enough age to them to look the part, but but not too rusted up. Just need to straighten them now.


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## Archie Sturmer (Mar 9, 2021)

A member Scott has reprinted catalogs by Walt Hood of Atlanta; a wholesaler of bicycles, including some Emblem bikes.
Most Emblem badges that I have seen had the side holes.  The tall badge holes on a super-short head tube remind me of some badges from Louisville.
Second Emblem monster-crank that I have seen on this site.  The extra-small truss tube is an indicator of an Emblem frame.


 


The forged crown fork has an early Snyder-Rollfast look to it; but my problem is, I do not know what a 1920's Snyder-Rollfast might look like.
When the cut threads are few in number, my first thought is cut-down? 
Consider though, my Emblem frames came with "sans" forks.


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## Just Jeff (Mar 10, 2021)

Thank you for the confirmation on it being an Emblem. And now I have an age range on it as well. Curious if anyone would know what style of rims it would have had originally. It came to me with a metal clad rear rim with a New Departure Model D hub and the remains of a wooden front rim with an earlier hub; haven't found marking on it yet as its soaking right now to be cleaned tomorrow. Also curious about the nickel plated fork that it came with.


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## Just Jeff (Mar 18, 2021)

Crack was worse than I expected. So I guess this one gets put on hold for now. Oh well, win some loose some I guess.


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## Superman1984 (Mar 18, 2021)

Just Jeff said:


> Crack was worse than I expected. So I guess this one gets put on hold for now. Oh well, win some loose some I guess.
> 
> View attachment 1375294
> 
> View attachment 1375295



Have a Professional welder & I mean a Proven welder weld that up. I doubt you would ever be stunting or jumping it & if you're not 300+ lbs you should be fine. Worse case a new/used BB but you're going to lose the Serial #s.  That is 1 of my concerns when considering buying a frame here. I'd rather buy a paintless project that shows any or no hidden evils. It can be saved but that is Not a novice task if you intend on riding it.


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## Just Jeff (Mar 18, 2021)

I can fix it myself. And I trust my abilities in this matter. I build kustom cars, hot rods and motorcycles in my free time. And I’ve done that for 20+ years. Easy enough fix. Doubt I’ll be buying any more project bicycles that I can’t look over in person from now on. 
    I will make it safe to ride in the future. Just gonna put it on the back burner for now and get a few other projects completed.  I’ll post it up in the projects section when I get back to it.


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## Superman1984 (Mar 19, 2021)

No offense meant. Just know some can't do their own welding, some can't do it without making it worse, and some like myself make do with what I have to the best of our abilities. Was the frame described to have any cracks?


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## stezell (Mar 19, 2021)

Just Jeff said:


> Thank you for the confirmation on it being an Emblem. And now I have an age range on it as well. Curious if anyone would know what style of rims it would have had originally. It came to me with a metal clad rear rim with a New Departure Model D hub and the remains of a wooden front rim with an earlier hub; haven't found marking on it yet as its soaking right now to be cleaned tomorrow. Also curious about the nickel plated fork that it came with.



Hey Jeff sorry it took me a few days to get a pic of my Blue Ribbon badged Rollfast fork, but I definitely think Archie is right on yours being 20's Rollfast. Sorry about your frame man and the upside down pics.

Sean


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## SKPC (Mar 19, 2021)

So looks to be vetted as a 20's Snyder-made Arch-bar truss frame with original fork(?),  Emblem Franken-crank and old re-paint. That's cool. You can only wonder whether the fork is orig to the frame. Possible shortened threads....... DP Harris hardware in the early/mid 20's teamed up with Snyder to build the Rollfast moniker so it _could_ be a Snyder built frame and fork.   Did early Snyder frames have this 6-dig serial number?   Snyder at this time in the 20's seemed to have their hands full after acquiring both Great Western and MCity Excelsior while teamed up with the Harris outfit. You can only imagine which badge fit the vertical spacing of 2-11/16th".  BB looks ready to clamp, channel-grind and weld.. 
Edit:  leaning Excelsior..


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## Superman1984 (Mar 19, 2021)

May or may not be common knowledge but for those who have no ideas about welding; drill a small hole where the crack stops If it can be done, groove or channel grind a U/V & weld. It Actually penetrates the metal better & bites on both sides of the metals & if you're decent welding you don't get gaps/voids.

I am no pro but this was info passed down from My Dad when I wanted to learn so I could use an old '58 Lincoln Dial Arc military welder he bought for $25-50. I have welded control arms & truck frames cut completely in half back together

Ohhh & don't drop molten metal slag in your ear!!!


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## Just Jeff (Mar 19, 2021)

Superman1984 said:


> No offense meant. Just know some can't do their own welding, some can't do it without making it worse, and some like myself make do with what I have to the best of our abilities. Was the frame described to have any cracks?



No offense taken, just giving some details of my life to help others understand why I say that damage is no big deal to me.  I learned to do sheet metal repair with a gas torch. And I rarely warp the sheet metal. I can arc weld as well as mig weld. Got an old Lincoln arc welder with a gas motor to run it on a trailer, 1940-50ish. Pain to crank over some days, but still works fantastic once up and running. Probably should rebuild the carb and put some gas stabilizer in it. One day I want to try my hand a tig welding. Don’t have a machine to try on yet though


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## Just Jeff (Mar 19, 2021)

The fork being from a Snyder built product makes sense. It does appear to be cut down to fit this frame.
   So, if I’m reading the info I have got here, I have an Emblem frame and crank set with a modified to fit Snyder fork. Or am I missing some other detail that says this frame is something else?
    Either way, gotta love a mutt of a bike. Lots of years on this one to home brew repairs to keep it pedaling. So I’ll just add to its story and get it back on the road!


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## Superman1984 (Mar 19, 2021)

Just Jeff said:


> No offense taken, just giving some details of my life to help others understand why I say that damage is no big deal to me.  I learned to do sheet metal repair with a gas torch. And I rarely warp the sheet metal. I can arc weld as well as mig weld. Got an old Lincoln arc welder with a gas motor to run it on a trailer, 1940-50ish. Pain to crank over some days, but still works fantastic once up and running. Probably should rebuild the carb and put some gas stabilizer in it. One day I want to try my hand a tig welding. Don’t have a machine to try on yet though



I get grief 'cause I love my ol'stick welder but I trust it. It's a beast burning the thickest of metals together then I know I can do sheet. Just start low & work up to where your skills are. I never practiced with car panels but I have my other body work talents I learned through out my few years so I can at least tack & work from there. I would love to try it all & be decent just so I can if need be. Everybody who has the stuff never seems to say Surrre Give it hell. Hahaha


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## Just Jeff (Mar 19, 2021)

SKPC said:


> So looks to be vetted as a 20's Snyder-made Arch-bar truss frame with original fork(?),  Emblem Franken-crank and old re-paint. That's cool. You can only wonder whether the fork is orig to the frame. Possible shortened threads....... DPHarris hardware in the early/mid 20's teamed up with Snyder to build the Rollfast moniker so it _could_ be a Snyder built frame and fork.   Did early Sydner frames have this 6-dig serial number?   Snyder at this time in the 20's seemed to have their hands full after acquiring both Great Western and MCity Excelsior while teamed up with the Harris outfit. You can only imagine what the badge was to fit the vertical spacing of 2-11/16th".. BB looks ready to clamp, channel-grind  and weld..



If it does turn out or be a Snyder made frame that sure would make it easier to find a badge for. Vertical holed Emblem badges are not easy to find. But I did find a couple Excelsior badges that fit the hole spacing. Interesting indeed


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## Superman1984 (Mar 19, 2021)

Just Jeff said:


> If it does turn out or be a Snyder made frame that sure would make it easier to find a badge for. Vertical holed Emblem badges are not easy to find. But I did find a couple Excelsior badges that fit the hole spacing. Interesting indeed



At least you may have a few options. Also depends on what you wanna build it as overal; original as best as it can be or what you're going to be happiest with. We jus' get to watch


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## Archie Sturmer (Mar 19, 2021)

Besides the truss tube *diameter*, as a way of distinguishing Emblem versus Snyder(?), is the middle or upper joint of the truss tube to the top tube.
If one takes a closer look at Sean’s example (thread # 187 528; post 15), one can see the smaller wedge piece brazed between the tubes.
The Emblem has yet another tube, of very short length, brazed between the tubes.

Also, consider a guy, say similar to Sean with a Snyder frame, but no crankset; what do you think the likelihood would be that a Snyder bicycle owner would choose a less common oddball Emblem crankset?
Also, consider who would use an Emblem monster crank repair, if they did not have to — thinking that an Emblem bicycle owner would be most likely.

Just wondering, the crank hanger needs repair, and the crank itself was already repaired; could the cause of the damage have been the same for both?


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## Just Jeff (May 23, 2021)

Made time to get to fixing the frame finally. Still need some metal finishing to clean it up some more, but it’s close now. Maybe I’ll have time at work tomorrow to finish it up


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## dnc1 (May 24, 2021)

Great to see you making progress,  keep up the good work!


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## SKPC (May 24, 2021)

Great to see you fixing this frame. I wonder how the BB cups will fit seeing that you did not clamp the crack closed tight before welding?  @Archie Sturmer is correct at the end of the day as to the ID, and I may have some good evidence of this.  These old frames transform themselves over time to appear to be something that fools most of us, but what is typically not removed is the serial number.  While looking trough my Emblem pic file examples, I found a serial number of an archbar Emblem that while earlier than yours, exhibits _exactly_ the same font as your frame and I do mean _exactl_y.  Because of this, I am confident you have an Emblem made archbar frame and crank.  The other stuff, not so sure.  Even more interesting is the lugged construction of the earlier example of an Archbar Emblem..enjoy.
*Your* serial number below



My example from the file drawer:



The earlier example of your frame.  Notice the frame lugs...


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## Just Jeff (May 24, 2021)

Bearing cups fit snug again. The pictures are a bit deceiving. The bottom bracket was clamped together to close up the crack. You can sort of see the clamps in the first two pictures. We actually sliced the end of the crack open wider so we could see just how much we were actually closing up the crack.


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## Just Jeff (May 24, 2021)

Had time to bead blast the frame today too. Frame is almost too big for my blast cabinet, but it got in there. Found an extra digit on the bottom bracket too. Sideways 5 for what I don’t know, but there it is


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## GiovanniLiCalsi (May 24, 2021)

The fork is very similar to a Miami.


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## Archie Sturmer (May 24, 2021)

Maybe “5” for 1925(?), (unless one was set on another year).


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## Just Jeff (May 26, 2021)

That’s a possibility for the lone “5” on the frame. I’m just happy I was able to fix it finally. Still trying to decide on a color for it, but for now I’m happy it’s in primer and ready to be built back into a useable bicycle. I left the makers marks on the tubing rather than smooth them all out. I enjoy the slight imperfections in it, and they tell a story of their own.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2021)

First color is now on the frame


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