# ~~Rollfast ZepElgin~~



## yeshoney (Feb 13, 2011)

I need help positively identifying the year and model from anyone.  THis is one of the coolest frame i have seen.  It has hints of Elgin Robin in the downtube, Hawthorne Zep in the double bars and Shelby in the Seat post joint.

Thanks in advance!

Joe


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## catfish (Feb 13, 2011)

Nice find. Do you want to sell it?


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## yeshoney (Feb 13, 2011)

Hey Catfish,

Tell me what it is first )
I think it is '34-36 based on the Triple step wheels.  Hub is a Mussleman patent pending.  Rear is set up for 28" wheels but has the brace blocks to run balloons.


Thanks, Joe


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## rustyspoke66 (Feb 13, 2011)

Built for Rollfast by D.P.Harris. I've seen these with other badges as well. Not sure of exact year but yeshoney is on the right track. If you fix it up I have the correct spacer for the top of your rear fender. It's the last one I have and I only have the top one so that works great for you because the lower one is correct. I think I also have the correct crossbar handlebars for it. Sweet bike!


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## old hotrod (Feb 14, 2011)

I would think 34-35 since 36 the top tube stops at the seat tube and the seatpost uses the collar clamp where this one uses the through bolt...and stainless shorty fenders not painted fenders like the later bikes...but that is just my guess...


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## HARPO (Feb 14, 2011)

Fenders appear to be identical to those on my 1934 Rollfast.....

fred


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## RMS37 (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi Joe, 

Both Westfield and H.P. Snyder produced very similar frames that are often confused with each other. It is obvious from the similarities that one company cribbed the basic design from the other. In my opinion, Snyder copied the Westfield Airider design and made enough changes due both to construction techniques proprietary to each company and pure design changes to keep them out of legal hot water.

This frame is a rare variation of H. P. Snyder’s version, referred to by them as the Tribar frame in reference to the three-tube juncture in front of the seat tube. Both Westfield and Snyder produced a range of frames from the basic architecture of their designs and this version with the addition of the lower top tube is one I have never seen before. (One of the rarest versions of the Westfield Airider frame is one with a truss-arch in the frame where the tank would usually hang.)

Without the additional tube, this frame would be the same as the standard Tribar frame and would use the Snyder “Master” hanging toolbox tank. The Snyder tank looks very much like the Westfield/Columbia/Elgin Blackhawk tank except it has a square nose as opposed to the rounded nose of the Westfield produced tank.

The likely reason variations were produced with extra tubes and no tank was to offer a less expensive variation to jobbers and distributors to round out their offerings. Whatever the reason these seem to be the rarest versions of these bikes and I have only seen one of each (This one for Snyder and one truss framed Airider on eBay several years ago)

Regarding dating the bike, for a number of reasons Snyder serial codes remain unbroken at this time. Several patterns were followed over the prewar years and at the time this bike was produced, it appears that many of the Snyder serial numbers followed a progressive alphanumeric pattern that should yield a serial number beginning with a “C” a “D” or an “E” for the bike. Thrown into the mix are a number of bikes with serial numbers beginning with an “X” and a few others I have recorded that fall outside of those ranges. 

Keeping with the “X” bikes, I have recorded X17907, X30093, and now this bike X43035. X30093 is a Tribar Snyder frame identical to this your frame but without the additional lower top tube. It is unbadged but has the Rollfast style darts, again like your frame. The lowest “X” number, X17907 throws a monkey wrench in the flow, as it is another rare variant. It is a very original bike and was badged and sold as an early Hawthorne Sport model, essentially a pre-37 bike with what has come to be known as the “Zep” frame. It has the early version of the locking collet seat binder, which should date production of the bike to very late 1935 or early 1936. Interestingly it has the Tribar seat juncture coupled with a straight down tube and the full crescent fenders again associated with 1936. I believe X17907 is a rare, pre-catalog Sport and probably was produced in late 1935. The presence of the standard bolt clamp on the two later “X” serialed Tribar frames leads me to believe that the collet binder was phased into production rather than tied to a specific date change-over.


Based on the above I would speculate that your bike and these other recorded “X” bikes are probably from very late 1935. 

One other thing that may be relevant to this discussion is that the earliest “Zep” type frames have top tubes located too close together to fit the slightly later, standard “Zep banana tank. I would imagine this would also be the case with this frame.

Nothing in the bike world gets me more excited than the appearance of a bike that is an as of yet undiscovered variation of a relatively standard model, so this bike has made my day!


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## Classicriders (Feb 15, 2011)

Without being home to access my literature, I can only go by my opinion on this bike.  Not that I have lit on this model as 1935 is my lightest year when it comes to H.P. Snyder/ D.P. Harris, but I won't know for sure until I look.
I agree with Phil on this most likely being a 1935 model.  I tend to think that it is a prelude to the 1936 "Zep" frame and could accomodate a tank.  The early "Zep" frames that did not take a tank had a bottom bar that was attached to the head tube and down tube equally,  so in effect were not Zep frames.  The bottom bar on this frame attaches to both tube almost entirely as do the "Zep" frames that accomodate a tank.  Check the this link http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/bicycle922/3479.htm
So, I really feel this bike represents a transition to the 36 Zep frame we are most familiar with, which I believe was the last year for the tri-bar frame.  In retrospect here is what we have for 35, 36 and 37 regarding these frames.
1935 - Tri-bar frame with tool box tank or Tri-bar frame Zep tank. 
1936 - Tri bar frame with tool box tank only.  Zep frame with tank.  
1937 - Zep frame and tank

Again, I may discover some new revelations after checking my literature.  Stay tuned.


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## ericbaker (Feb 15, 2011)

This one came out of the Dudley show...yes? I remember the buzz around a frame that sounds like this one but I am on a server that won't allow the pics to show right now.


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## RMS37 (Feb 15, 2011)

Here is a picture of my unusual H.P. Snyder built Hawthorne Tribar Sport model, serial number X17907, taken at last Summer's LeMay event.






The core of this bike is original and it has a Tribar frame with a straight down tube and a lower top tube, an early locking collet seat binder without the big nut, and has crescent fenders instead of raingutters. The lower top tube on this bike is too close to the top tube to fit the later “Zep” style banana tank. I believe this matches the configuration of Joe’s frame but a few key measurements could be checked to prove that assumption right or wrong. 

As I noted, based on the serial numbers and the assumption that they are chronologically driven, this bike is marginally earlier than Joe’s bike and another Snyder Tribar Master-Tank, frame I have, both of which have standard seat binder clamps. 

It would seem that this bike falls between the 35/36 Fall/Winter catalog, which does not show a “Fastback Sport” frame (my coined, generic name for the full run of Snyder’s “Zep” like frames) and the 36 Summer MW catalog which has the first depiction of a “FS” frame but with the more standard, non Tribar seat juncture. 

With distribution of the 35/36 catalog probably occurring at the end of Summer 1935, it is likely the new-for-36 designs entered production in mid to late Fall 1935 and the designs were refined and changed before the 1936 Summer catalog was mailed in the Spring of 1936. The variant I have must fall between the two MW catalogs, it is never pictured in them and may not have ever been depicted in any Snyder literature either. 

What I take from all of the above and what I noted in the previous post is that Snyder was playing with variations at the end of 1935 and by combining designs, they expanded the line with variations that in many cases were not produced for long or in substantial numbers thus making them rare today. I believe that both this bike and Joe's bike are both products of this experimental period. It also appears that the standard seat clamp didn’t die on a Friday to be replaced with the collet version on the next Monday. Evidentially, by serial number, there was probably an overlap of the two designs, and the collet may have been instituted somewhat later on the beer belly Tribar frames than the early FS frames.

Back to Joe’s bike, I didn’t mention this in the first post but the color-mismatched fork is also mismatched by manufacturer. The fork is a Westfield fork and the bike should have a Synder Quadraplate fork with the flat non-corrugated plates.


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## yeshoney (Feb 15, 2011)

Eric,
Yes, I got this from Keith at the Dudley show.  Funny story of the negotiating that took place between a third party to sell a Schwinn I picked up at the show from Brian-in RI.  Wasn't going to let it slip thru my fingers for $25 difference.

Joe


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## ericbaker (Feb 15, 2011)

Sounds like a few funny negotiations went down at that show then, with mark taking care of the haggling part of my Phantom purchase while I stood there counting stacks of twenties. Haha


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## yeshoney (Mar 10, 2011)

Gonna resurrect this post as  I intend to purchase those gorgeous aluminum fenders from CR.  I am not sure if the stainless steel fenders that came on the bike are/were original due to the holes in the fender not lining up with the mounting holes.  It looks like the holes were drilled to put them on there as there are other holes that more correctly line up with a Columbia ballooner frame I have.  So in light of this I want to put the aluminum fenders on this which are from the '35 SamsCo, which makes the year and manufacturer correct.  If someone could also chime in on the forks on the SamsCo being what  more correctly would have come on this bike, that would be helpful.  Picked up the set of triple steps so I don't have to do a ton of resto on the ones that came off the bike.  Different hub manufacturer but I don't think there is conclusive proof which one is more correct.

Joe


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## RMS37 (Mar 10, 2011)

Correct manufacturer but not the same year. The Samsco is not from 1935 and is at least 2 to 3 years newer than your frame. The fork on it is the later quadriplate design that uses thinner legs and different plate construction than the forks that were used in 34-37. Your bike was probably originally equipped with stainless rain gutter fenders but if it is toward the end of the line it is possible it had Snyder crescent fenders. The problems you will run into with the Samsco fenders are that the upper rear fender bridge mounting point (and the hole) will be much higher on the rear fender than where it needs to be for your frame and the truss brace riveted to the front fender will be way further forward than the early style truss rods will align with.


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## yeshoney (Mar 10, 2011)

A concern, but not totally overcomable.  A well placed fender rivet will cover the old hole and I will need to drill in a new one, but how long might I have to wait for a set of stainless rain gutter fenders with the bridge hole in the right spot~probably until I am in the ground.  I think I will like the look of crescent fenders with this frame geometry better than the rain gutter profile.  As for the fork,  I will probably just leave the Westfield fork on it.  It is in good shape and will just get cleaned up.  Except for a few purists no one will ever know.  I have put together one seat out of 3 I had.  Took the best parts and made a great long spring saddle with the best stuff.  I have a deco Torrington stem, but not sure whether to go cross brace or long horn style.  Also have a chainguard for it with the holes across.  Missed the tear drop guard on ebay last weekend.  Would have liked that style as I don't have a bike with that guard.  Anyone have one they want to part with?

Thanks for the info Phil~

Joe


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## supper15fiets (Mar 10, 2011)

..very nice rare frame you have there, take good care of it!
i like the sway in frame behinde the frontwheel...
here is mine '36 rollfast...


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## Barto (Jan 21, 2018)

supper15fiets said:


> ..very nice rare frame you have there, take good care of it!
> i like the sway in frame behinde the frontwheel...
> here is mine '36 rollfast...
> View attachment 506777



Love thoes frames and tanks


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## Krakatoa (Jan 21, 2018)

Hey Barto great thread to ressurect!! I've not read this one. Boy oh boy @RMS37 is super knowledgeable I have to take some time to digest his posts.


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## WetDogGraphix (Jan 22, 2018)

Krakatoa said:


> Hey Barto great thread to ressurect!! I've not read this one. Boy oh boy @RMS37 is super knowledgeable I have to take some time to digest his posts.




Yes he is. I wish he was still around, I have questions about mine....


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