# 1940 Roadmaster ?



## insomniacshotrods (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello im trying to find out if this is indeed a 40 roadmaster  ,was told 46 but they dont have the same frame as the 40-41 pictures if seen so if someone could identify id appreciate it alot.  Serial # is H10301  Thanks


----------



## RMS37 (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi, I?m the person that told you late 1945-1946 for your bike on the Ratrod site. Thanks for posting your serial number. Each number helps pin down exactly when changes in production and design were instituted at Cleveland Welding.

The serial number H10301 equates to the end of the first series of postwar 3-Gill frames. The earliest postwar frame cataloged so far is an ?E? serial number and postwar ?J? serial numbers are the beginning of the second series frames which differ in having a deeper curved down tube and an ovalized hole in the dropout for the chain guard bolt.  

Your bike is very little different from the last 3-Gill (named for the tank they use) frames built in 1942 before WW2. What is different is the lack of integral tabs on the rear dropouts which were used as stops for the drop stand and the way the dropouts are welded to the frame. Prewar dropouts have a weld bead around the interface of the stay ends and the drop, postwar frames have no visible weld at this interface.

The pictures you posted on the other site are of a 41-42 3-Gill (the orange/cream bike) and a 24? juvenile model that is no earlier than 1949 (the red/white bike)

It is easy to get a lot of expert opinions from collectors and from various sites on the internet. Many sites give approximate dates, rely on the owner?s opinion or guess based on the knowledge they have available at the time.  The reason I have been collecting serial numbers and studying the changes in design is to raise the bar with regard to dating CWC products. I have yet to catalog enough numbers to be definitive about dates but I have confidence that your bike is postwar and likely built in mid to late 1946.

Phil


----------



## insomniacshotrods (Feb 24, 2009)

Sorry Phil didnt want it to sound like i didnt think you knew what you where talking about. I was looking at bikes that like you say i guess the owner didnt really know what they where and posted yr as 46 and my frame was not like that one in all reguards so i was looking for the answers. With all the things you say to look at to determine the yr I see you are the one that knows so thank you for answer and all your efforts to try to help us who found a frame and would like some history of it. I wish it where more like cars I can tell a 55,56,57 chevy just by looking at it lol..anyway thanks again Phil.


----------



## RMS37 (Feb 24, 2009)

No problem, without more background on the subject there is no reason my opinions on dating CWC bikes stand out as any closer to the truth than anyone else?s. I appreciate that you revisited the question after finding conflicting opinions and information on the subject.  

Unfortunately there is a lot of incorrect information out there on dating bikes. Very little of it is intentionally wrong but it is confusing. Dating a fifties Chevy is a good analogy: if you didn?t know how to differentiate a 57 and the guy that sold it to you swore that his father bought it new in 53 and several web sites posted pictures referring to it as a 55 or a 56 you would be in the situation where lot of us end up in the bike world.

Realistically dating bikes is probably more like dating a Model T without the help of factory chassis number data. Outside of a few models that are very distinctive and only produced for one year, most bikes look very similar and were produced with little variation over a number of years. This can make determining the exact date or year difficult to accurately pin down.

I think that between the various individuals and sites currently active in chasing and sleuthing bicycle history the picture will continue to get better but it will take some time (if ever) for all the incorrect data out there to get flushed from the system. 

Phil


----------



## pedal alley (Feb 24, 2009)

insomniacshotrods said:


> Sorry Phil didnt want it to sound like i didnt think you knew what you where talking about. I was looking at bikes that like you say i guess the owner didnt really know what they where and posted yr as 46 and my frame was not like that one in all reguards so i was looking for the answers. With all the things you say to look at to determine the yr I see you are the one that knows so thank you for answer and all your efforts to try to help us who found a frame and would like some history of it. I wish it where more like cars I can tell a 55,56,57 chevy just by looking at it lol..anyway thanks again Phil.





yes bicycles are hard to date, unless one studies them.phil is the cwc gurue. 


now for the cars..yes you can tell a 55-56-57 chevy by looking. but, can you tell the difference in each year models. there are eight different models of 55-56-57 chevy in each year.thats in the 2 door cars. not to mention the 4 doors  & wagons, or special editions like the 1957 el morocco conertable.the list goes on. this isn't the site for that subject. sorry , 
i'v got bow-tie brains. tri-fives .


----------



## Clownbrew (Mar 2, 2009)

*Wheel / tire sizes*

Insomniac -

I like the look you have going there.  What are your hoop sizes?  Any clearance trouble in the back?

Clownbrew


----------



## insomniacshotrods (Mar 3, 2009)

Thank you. The front rim is 26 x 1.75 with a 26x1.5 kenda tire. The back rim is a 24x1.75  with a pyramid 24x3 tire and no it does not rub,its stuffed but doesnt hit. I plan i motorizing it just was curious as to what year it was. I know its not the thing here but just showing Clownbrew.Still have to powder coat some parts and primer tank to try to match the red or something.


----------



## willy wonka (Mar 3, 2009)

*calling phil*

hey phil did you see my serial number on the my frame is it possible a cwc frame clone of schwinn? my post was is it a whizzer it had whizzer type morrow rims when i found it just thougt id ask while your on the subject thanks william


----------



## RMS37 (Mar 3, 2009)

Hi William, I looked at your earlier posts and found the number you listed for your mystery frame. H59491 could be a Cleveland welding serial number but it could also be something else as many companies used similar letter/number combinations for serial numbers. 

As a CWC number it could also be from different periods as they recycled their numbers several times. 

I also noticed you said the frame is a cantilever style frame. CWC didn?t produce a cantilever style frame until 1958 or 1959 and these were middleweight frames so I doubt your mystery frame is a CWC product. If possible post a picture and someone should be able to name the manufacturer.

Phil


----------

