# Fake fake fake!!!



## Aeropsycho (Nov 5, 2013)

Make sure you don't pay too much for this one it is FAKE!!! 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221310457056


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## squeedals (Nov 5, 2013)

Just wondering how to tell? Looks like a few think it's real. I know nothing about Military issues.......


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## Gary Mc (Nov 5, 2013)

I'm interested to know how you spotted it as a fake as well.  Has the SN been restamped?


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## catfish (Nov 5, 2013)

It looks like the guy painted over some pitted rust in a few spots.


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## decotriumph (Nov 5, 2013)

*Welds?*

There seem to be crappy welds on each frame tube a couple of inches from the bottom bracket, as though a different bottom bracket was welded into the frame.


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## mike j (Nov 5, 2013)

Mr. Columbia ?


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## 37fleetwood (Nov 5, 2013)

a couple things. first I would trust Jamie on these, he may know more than Mr Columbia, and the crappy welds would be correct. all military bikes were steel welded, not brass brazed so the welds are rough.


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## Hubs-n-Spokes (Nov 5, 2013)

Please, can you explain why this is fake and how you know? It might save some of us from making a bad purchase in the future.


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## vincev (Nov 5, 2013)

Please explain so we all can learn something about military bikes.Thanks


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## bikecrazy (Nov 5, 2013)

Crappy welds are correct(Wartime production). I question the claim that this is a fake. The fork is not correct but if this bike is a total fake I will be very suprised.


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## squeedals (Nov 5, 2013)

Aerophyco has some "splanin'" to do Lucy.


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## bricycle (Nov 5, 2013)

bikecrazy said:


> Crappy welds are correct(Wartime production). I question the claim that this is a fake. The fork is not correct but if this bike is a total fake I will be very suprised.




Well, if the fork is wrong, that's Fake enough for me.....


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## Aeropsycho (Nov 5, 2013)

*Well... from what I can see in the...*

Well... from what I can see in the photos yeah the fork is wrong along with the top lock nut plus it is missing the truss rods and bracket but that should be obvious... the welds are rough but too rough. My two frames and the others that I have seen have better welds not all bubble gum splattered like these the main reason is that he is saying it is original and it is not original paint that's for sure.
I'd say the wheels are correct plus a lot of the other parts but I think he faked the frame in this case check out his serial number verses original verified numbered frames... you make the call 




HIS...













I think the "M" looks a little funny....


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## bikecrazy (Nov 5, 2013)

These bikes were built in small lots as the government ordered them. Once ordered, they were built and shipped asap. To say that they were built all alike with no variations or differences is to me a streatch. The serial number stamps were sloppy and who knows what else. I know for a fact that Columbia over produced frames and sold them as civilian bikes after the war. The only way this bike can be declared a fake is if the actual serial number sequence is proven to have never been produce IMHO


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## tbone (Nov 5, 2013)

Aeropsycho said:


> Well... from what I can see in the photos yeah the fork is wrong along with the top lock nut plus it is missing the truss rods and bracket but that should be obvious... the welds are rough but too rough. My two frames and the others that I have seen have better welds not all bubble gum splattered like these the main reason is that he is saying it is original and it is not original paint that's for sure.
> I'd say the wheels are correct plus a lot of the other parts but I think he faked the frame in this case check out his serial number verses original verified numbered frames... you make the call
> 
> View attachment 121608HIS...
> ...




his M looks likw an upside down "W" as the edge lines are at an angle, not like the other straight Ms


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## Gary Mc (Nov 5, 2013)

Aeropsycho said:


> Well... from what I can see in the photos yeah the fork is wrong along with the top lock nut plus it is missing the truss rods and bracket but that should be obvious... the welds are rough but too rough. My two frames and the others that I have seen have better welds not all bubble gum splattered like these the main reason is that he is saying it is original and it is not original paint that's for sure.
> I'd say the wheels are correct plus a lot of the other parts but I think he faked the frame in this case check out his serial number verses original verified numbered frames... you make the call
> 
> View attachment 121608HIS...
> ...




Thank You for providing the lesson as one day I'd like to own one of these.  I agree that serial number is an upside down W, not an M.  Between that, the welds, and the forks I'd agree it's not original.  Thanks again.


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## jkent (Nov 5, 2013)

I have studied this bike very closely and I am with you that I do believe this bike is not correct. To start with the frame the welds do not look correct, and the serial # looks (like you stated ) like an upside down W. Then you go to what all the bike has wrong with it besides the frame. #1 Wrong kickstand, # 2 wrong grips, #3 wrong seat, #4 wrong tool pouch, #5 wrong pedals, #6 wrong tires, #7 wrong front fork, #8 wrong fork nut, #9 missing truss rods, #10 missing upper truss rod bracket, #11 missing rear reflector, #12 missing seat clamp bolt. Basically you have what looks like a correct set of wheels and an over painted fake half way done frame. if you also look closely at the serial # to can see sand marks only around the first few letters and numbers but not the rest. There is no sanding on the 502 but heavy sanding on the MG96 it really looks like someone trying to pass a half ass job off as a true original.
JKent


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## Hubs-n-Spokes (Nov 5, 2013)

It would be nice if there were a database of serial numbers for classic bicycles. It would also be nice if those who registered the numbers would submit a picture and maybe a little background info as well. Also if a bicycle was fabricated, i.e. gender change or reproduction parts that would be useful info as well. Some people are honest about their fabrications and they are well documented here and some are not so upfront. For the future generations of collectors, it would be helpful if they had access to as much information as possible.


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## Aeropsycho (Nov 5, 2013)

*Some info...*



Hubs-n-Spokes said:


> It would be nice if there were a database of serial numbers for classic bicycles. It would also be nice if those who registered the numbers would submit a picture and maybe a little background info as well. Also if a bicycle was fabricated, i.e. gender change or reproduction parts that would be useful info as well. Some people are honest about their fabrications and they are well documented here and some are not so upfront. For the future generations of collectors, it would be helpful if they had access to as much information as possible.




There has been quite a following on military bikes I have these sites of interest if you haven't seen them, check them out!

http://www.theliberator.be/militarybicycles.htm 

http://g503.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=23 

http://handcartz.smugmug.com/gallery/8763603_92MzR#!i=579594227&k=TQJat

http://www.bergerwerke.com/index.html


A lot of information will be someday be lost about the bikes our fathers and grandfathers had unless we keep this with us and honestly share it with others....


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## izee2 (Nov 5, 2013)

Wow..This is one of those things that can keep ya up at night. The only thing that can actually prove that the bike is of military origin is the frame. Its the only thing that is marked as such..MC, MG serial numbers. Everything else can and was used on other bikes....Fenders, light, guard, chainring, etc. None of those are military marked. Just a little paint and ..poof military. A chainring just sold on ebay for almost $100 bucks. Military it stated. It was worn but the green paint was covering the wear on the teeth. Military? Who knows. Spray can said it was. 
 Back to the frame..The M is not like any other M I have seen. But in the haste to make these frames ,way back when, did someone marking the serial # mistakenly grabbed a W instead of the M when stamping it. Who knows if this happened..possible ..but then again who knows.
  I would think that is someone puts the time and effort to make crappy welds and try to complete a original looking bike they might spend some extra time to correctly forge the serial #. Just being the devils advocate... but I still am not 100% sure that this is not the correct stamping. But I do believe the welds could be  original. I have seen them on some original examples that are splattered and I have seen them, although heavy, nicely run. My boys frame from 42" has one heavy weld on the seatpost tube that looks like someone learning how to weld did it. Then there are little to no weld build up or splatter on the other welds. Rush to finish it? Could be.
 This bike is a tough call. Original or not If the winner is happy with it ..so be it. If they try to sell it in the future I would hope they do a lot of research to prove its originality. Rims (last set sold on ebay for $700)and parts will cover the price of the auction as its sits. To go much further is a crap shoot. 
 My 2 cents....
 Thanks
 Tom


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## oldfart36 (Nov 6, 2013)

jkent said:


> I have studied this bike very closely and I am with you that I do believe this bike is not correct. To start with the frame the welds do not look correct, and the serial # looks (like you stated ) like an upside down W. Then you go to what all the bike has wrong with it besides the frame. #1 Wrong kickstand, # 2 wrong grips, #3 wrong seat, #4 wrong tool pouch, #5 wrong pedals, #6 wrong tires, #7 wrong front fork, #8 wrong fork nut, #9 missing truss rods, #10 missing upper truss rod bracket, #11 missing rear reflector, #12 missing seat clamp bolt. Basically you have what looks like a correct set of wheels and an over painted fake half way done frame. if you also look closely at the serial # to can see sand marks only around the first few letters and numbers but not the rest. There is no sanding on the 502 but heavy sanding on the MG96 it really looks like someone trying to pass a half ass job off as a true original.
> JKent




Very good breakdown!! Agreed

I have delt in and collected military items for over 30 years. There's an old saying that goes with ALL investment grade items, If you see and or feel a red flag, walk, this one has numerous red flags!! A safe way to collect and to enjoy whatever nich your into.


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## 55ColumbiaBuilt (Nov 6, 2013)

As the owner of "the other bike on eBay", I'd like to help out with future research if I can.  As I am confidant that Mr. Orwin Wilhite's bicycle is about as true a specimen as you may find, I'll take detailed pictures of any and all points on the bike and add them to my photo album.  Just let me know what parts of the bike deserve the closest scruitny and I'll photograph it before the bike is no longer mine.  I'm sure you already have, but you can see it here:


http://mybicycles.weebly.com/columbia-ww-ii-military-bike.html


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## squeedals (Nov 6, 2013)

55ColumbiaBuilt said:


> As the owner of "the other bike on eBay", I'd like to help out with future research if I can.  As I am confidant that Mr. Orwin Wilhite's bicycle is about as true a specimen as you may find, I'll take detailed pictures of any and all points on the bike and add them to my photo album.  Just let me know what parts of the bike deserve the closest scruitny and I'll photograph it before the bike is no longer mine.  I'm sure you already have, but you can see it here:
> 
> 
> http://mybicycles.weebly.com/columbia-ww-ii-military-bike.html[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Hubs-n-Spokes (Nov 6, 2013)

What "other bike on ebay"?


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## tbone (Nov 6, 2013)

55ColumbiaBuilt said:


> As the owner of "the other bike on eBay", I'd like to help out with future research if I can.  As I am confidant that Mr. Orwin Wilhite's bicycle is about as true a specimen as you may find, I'll take detailed pictures of any and all points on the bike and add them to my photo album.  Just let me know what parts of the bike deserve the closest scruitny and I'll photograph it before the bike is no longer mine.  I'm sure you already have, but you can see it here:
> 
> 
> http://mybicycles.weebly.com/columbia-ww-ii-military-bike.html




You are just showing off now.  kidding

Really great bike.


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## 55ColumbiaBuilt (Nov 6, 2013)

Hubs-n-Spokes said:


> What "other bike on ebay"?




THIS ONE.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-G-519-Columbia-Bicycle-/181252573791?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a337eca5f#ht_958wt_1398


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## Hubs-n-Spokes (Nov 6, 2013)

Thank you and great bike!


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## catfish (Nov 6, 2013)

squeedals said:


> Catfish has some "splanin'" to do Lucy.




Huh? What are you talking about?


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## squeedals (Nov 6, 2013)

catfish said:


> Huh? What are you talking about?




Sorry Cat.....wrong poster. All fixed.


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## DJ Bill (Nov 6, 2013)

Agreed on the welding.. Some pretty marginal welds went out the factory door during that time mainly due to the welding labor force already being in Europe..

And this, too sounds plausible...

"Back to the frame..The M is not like any other M I have seen. But in the haste to make these frames ,way back when, did someone marking the serial # mistakenly grabbed a W instead of the M when stamping it. Who knows if this happened..possible ..but then again who knows."


But... it is pretty easy to fake one of these bikes today. Lots of cheap junker Columbias are going to turn into military bikes in the years ahead..so this is a great lesson for us all. Be careful. 

I think we as a hobby need to come up with a marking we can use on clone and tribute bikes to ensure they do not get passed off as the real thing in the future. Perhaps stamping CLONE on the BB might do it.


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## scrubbinrims (Nov 6, 2013)

All this money for a utilitarian bicycle, homogenous drab color, unequipped, and because of a serial number dating to WW2 production...
I don't get it and never will.
Chris


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## squeedals (Nov 6, 2013)

scrubbinrims said:


> All this money for a utilitarian bicycle, homogenous drab color, unequipped, and because of a serial number dating to WW2 production...
> I don't get it and never will.
> Chris




Beauty is in the eye of the "bidder"


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## bricycle (Nov 6, 2013)

scrubbinrims said:


> All this money for a utilitarian bicycle, homogenous drab color, unequipped, and because of a serial number dating to WW2 production...
> I don't get it and never will.
> Chris




Shhhhh! Chris.... let them think it's neat. That leaves more real Kool stuff for you and me!


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## Gary Mc (Nov 6, 2013)

scrubbinrims said:


> All this money for a utilitarian bicycle, homogenous drab color, unequipped, and because of a serial number dating to WW2 production...
> I don't get it and never will.
> Chris




I love these just due to the history surrounding them. Think about it, these were used by those serving our country on essentially 2 war fronts during WWII, the largest war this planet has ever seen.  They bring back the history of rationing during the war, the shortages of materials including petroleum that necessitated people including soldiers & military staff biking to conserve resources.  They were used as courier devices on bases or by pilots and support staff to get to planes on airfields.  They were probably used by soldiers & staff to get to the bars quite often.  They were used for rehabilitation by wounded soldiers to get back in shape. They were used on leave to tour far away cities & villages on other continents where soldiers served. I'm sure I'm leaving many other uses out but this is enough to understand their historical context.  If these bikes could talk, think of the stories many of them could tell. There is a huge nostalgia appeal for history buffs making them one of my favorite ballooners.  On top of that they were designed for adults with a purpose.  These are about the history & their historical context to "The Greatest Generation" who grew up during the deprived times of the Great Depression and then went off to serve their country during WWII. These were used by a depression and war toughened people whom most of us will never understand what they went through.  My 2 cents on why I love them.


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Nov 6, 2013)

bricycle said:


> Shhhhh! Chris.... let them think it's neat. That leaves more real Kool stuff for you and me!




I agree .........


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## johan willaert (Nov 6, 2013)

Aeropsycho said:


> There has been quite a following on military bikes I have these sites of interest if you haven't seen them, check them out!
> 
> http://www.theliberator.be/militarybicycles.htm




Thanks, 10 years ago I probably made the first page dedicated to the WW2 US Army bicycle and it was made out of frustration for lack of information about these as an article by Jerry Cleveland in the MVPA's Army Motors was all that was published about them...

But it has two sides of course as it has triggered an increase in interest and hence price of original bikes and it has allowed people to make rather convincing look-alikes....

Sometimes I wonder if sharing all the info was a good thing...


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## skindel (Nov 9, 2013)

*the real deal baby*

i personlly media blasted the red over the original od green paint from this bike i bought in a lot of 25 or more bicycles a couple years back in a lot of 25 or more bikes --the seller nor i the buyer knew nothing of military bikes and i thought i was just getting a heavy duti columbia in the lot.-- back then and now i really didn't care to much for the www and never intended to sell this after i learned of its true i.d. so i restored it to suit me-buddy and no attempt of any kind has been made to tamper with any number anywhere anytime ho ya happy veterans day posting some pics of the barn fresh 35 motor bike i scored to day for 35$--god bless america


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## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi (Nov 9, 2013)

Is this the,thread about the crap aerocycle?... Kidding


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