# Grey Ghost - MG Disc



## indycycling (Tuesday at 2:40 PM)

Never mind - posted pics of my bike for the enjoyment of the members

I've been at this way to long and have put together a large nice collection to back it all up to spend time defending some of the basics around Stingrays 

Was hoping to spend a bit more time in this forum along with the groups I participate in daily on Facebook, oh well


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## Freqman1 (Tuesday at 3:42 PM)

Now that’s a sweet Ghost!


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Tuesday at 4:01 PM)

December 1971, by prevailing logic this bike would be a 1972 build and would not exist.
Can you explain for the members who follow prevailing logic how this bike could exist?

(I am not one of those members).


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## indycycling (Tuesday at 4:11 PM)

Freqman1 said:


> Now that’s a sweet Ghost!



thanks Shawn!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Tuesday at 4:13 PM)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> December 1971, by prevailing logic this bike would be a 1972 build and would not exist.
> Can you explain for the members who follow prevailing logic how this bike could exist?
> 
> (I am not one of those members).



Is it possible that they were selling so well that Schwinn ran some out late in the year? Maybe to offer some at Christmas? Seems like quite a fast turn around and unlikely, otherwise someone has some splainning to do.


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## indycycling (Tuesday at 4:21 PM)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> December 1971, by prevailing logic this bike would be a 1972 build and would not exist.
> Can you explain for the members who follow prevailing logic how this bike could exist?
> 
> (I am not one of those members).



Fair question and one that is often misunderstood.  

November and December bikes are typically transition months to the next model year, that is the prevailing logic, and you routinely see the next model year parts on those bikes. Late 68 Krates start having front fenders, different shifters and seats for example.  However, there a many exceptions and mid year releases that don't follow this path for some of the early Stingrays for example.

Ghosts are a 71 only model and started appearing in November (L) and December (M) of '70 (F) then ran all year long in '71 (G) until they were done.

72 was first year for the disc bikes and they started appearing as early as October in '71 and the calipers and hubs are often dated '71, several of mine are on Apple and Lemons. As the Ghost (and Cotton too) finished up calendar year 71, the last few months transitioned to 72 models and were equipped with discs like the other Krates

There are a numerous well documented Ghost and Cotton disc bikes, several here from long time members. They are rare and top of the list for any collection, yet continue to be controversial.


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## indycycling (Tuesday at 4:22 PM)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Is it possible that they were selling so well that Schwinn ran some out late in the year? Maybe to offer some at Christmas? Seems like quite a fast turn around and unlikely, otherwise someone has some splainning to do.



No, take a look at my response above, thanks


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Tuesday at 4:36 PM)

I have debated several times with members here on that. I keep getting hit with the old "If the frame date is December it wasn't built until probably February/March and would not have been painted until right before it was built" line. 
I never believed that, at least on Stingrays but I always get told I don't know what I am talking about.


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## Freqman1 (Tuesday at 5:11 PM)

Yea I don't hold a lot of stock in that either. I have a girls Phantom with a 29 Nov frame and it certainly isn't a '56 model because they weren't offered in '56. Depending on how the line was running I can see where some bikes may have been built within a few days of the frame.


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## Grey Ghost (Tuesday at 5:18 PM)

Something doesn’t add up.
Can’t have it both ways. Either frame dates are considered correct or else it’s a free for all. The fudge factor can be whatever suits your fancy.

There is a lot of “in-correction” that gets mentioned by some members, unless it’s their bike, then it seems to be A-OK to submit mongrels and claim correct authenticity.

As far as parts go, they may, and often did, substitute different parts like handlebars etc when they ran short of the correct years item. However, there were probably plenty of caliper brakes left over to finish the years run. Discs added a lot of expense to the last two years editions and Schwinn would have frowned at putting a new expensive price on without proper compensation.

That paint doesn’t look original either, lots of orange peel. Just sayin....


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## Freqman1 (Tuesday at 5:26 PM)

Grey Ghost said:


> Something doesn’t add up.
> Can’t have it both ways. Either frame dates are considered correct or else it’s a free for all. The fudge factor can be whatever suits your fancy.
> 
> There is a lot of “in-correction” that gets mentioned by some members, unless it’s their bike, then it seems to be A-OK to submit mongrels and claim correct authenticity.
> ...



Are you saying this Ghost is a "mongrel"?


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Tuesday at 5:30 PM)

Now we done gone and pissed him off and we can't enjoy his bike. It is legit, no smoke and mirrors  there.


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## Olds442 (Tuesday at 5:52 PM)

I’d give him 3 grand for it.   He’s says that’s the value.   It’s a repaint.   And ? Remain on the brakes.


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## Grey Ghost (Tuesday at 5:53 PM)

I called mine a mongrel, for the same reasons. It had a 70 bar on a 69 frame. I’m not afraid to come clean. I told everybody about the incorrect parts that I installed. Things like the brake lever covers that weren’t in any way shape or form correct.

I got some flack for wanting to change the 70 bar to a 69 bar, despite my 69 shifter.

If this bike is legit, great. I just don’t like the double standards that claim other people’s bikes are incorrect for the same reasons, i.e. frame date doesn’t match parts. 

Frame dates mean nothing evidently. They can be whatever you want them to be if your “close”.

Lots of experts and yet, lots of anomalies straight from the Schwinn factory. 
Some anomalies are just rarer and more desirable than others I guess.


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## Olds442 (Tuesday at 6:02 PM)

Maybe they ran out of holes to mount the caliper in?    The hole factory had a strike that year.


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## Nashman (Tuesday at 6:31 PM)

Hey, it's good clean fun to discuss opinions and variations that may or may not be correct. There are no shortage of "experts" on the Cabe. When it gets to doubting someones bike, theory or opinion in a malicious way, or basically telling them they are wrong, that's pretty sad.

Has anyone heard of "The Golden Rule"? It comes down to respect. If you don't agree, spin it nicely or agree to disagree. That goes for value too.  Extended peeing contests just show how shallow people are. Take the time to be humble and maybe admit you are not sure, or heaven forbid, could be wrong. Above all, keep things light and inject some humour into things like @Olds442 is good at.

I think we all sign onto the Cabe for fun, sharing, laughing, and learning. I think one of the best traits to have is to laugh at yourself and along with others. Sticklers on "exact" details from literature and catalogs are frankly, annoying if they rub it in your face too often. Anyone can read and quote. Being humble and friendly and getting along with people is where real skill and humanity comes into play.

I always liked the term "don't go away mad, just go away"!!  Ha!!


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## indycycling (Tuesday at 6:31 PM)

Olds442 said:


> I’d give him 3 grand for it.   He’s says that’s the value.   It’s a repaint.   And ? Remain on the brakes.



LOL buy a disc rear wheel lately? cost as much as many bikes, no comparison to that other bike and $3K was a fair offer, but like I said, his was certainly worth more


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## Olds442 (Tuesday at 7:28 PM)

One on eBay right now.   Looks clean  1/72.    Has a little grey overspray from something.


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## Grey Ghost (Tuesday at 8:38 PM)

What happened to the pics?😁


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## GTs58 (Tuesday at 11:28 PM)

indycycling said:


> Fair question and one that is often misunderstood.
> 
> November and December bikes are typically transition months to the next model year, that is the prevailing logic, and you routinely see the next model year parts on those bikes. Late 68 Krates start having front fenders, different shifters and seats for example.  However, there a many exceptions and mid year releases that don't follow this path for some of the early Stingrays for example.
> 
> ...




Most people are dumb to the facts on Schwinn's production procedures and some people can't comprehend the facts so they're stupid to the facts. Like believing the serial stamping dates are the frame dates or build dates. The serial date is the date the number was stamped on the bikes frame component. Pure and simple, and a proven fact. Schwinn didn't offer a 1963 Corvette 5 speed, but they did build at least one. Harpo has a M 1958 Hornet that was built in 59 but with the 1958 specs, not the later 1959 specs. There were over 900,000 serial stamped MR head tubes that were stamped during the Strike in 1980. These MR serial stamped head tubes were used in building bikes all thru 1981 and into 1982. Not one was used to build a frame until the strike was over in early 1981. Freqman1's Nov. 29th 1955 serial Phantom was undoubtedly built in 56 even though they weren't offered on the price list. This has happened multiple times over the post war years. All the L-Nov. 27th 1961 stamped drop outs on the Corvette 5 speeds were used on the 1962 built Corvette 5's and all had the new 1962 items, features and 62 cranks. With all the facts about Schwinn's manufacturing practices and their serial numbers available today, I'm really surprised at how many still think the serial stamping dates are some kind of build date. This is where the two words dumb and stupid come into play.


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## Freqman1 (Wednesday at 4:13 AM)

So you are telling me, for a fact, that a frame that has a 29 Nov stamp could not have been built and delivered in December as a '55 model?  For anyone that's ever worked on an assembly line you know that there are lulls and surges sometimes between when parts are delivered and when items are assembled. Calling people names serves little to advance learning. If you can prove, through Schwinn records, this as absolute fact then that's when we accept the _facts. _Trying to say with absolute certainty what happened 50 or more years ago without production records of each day is (I'll let you choose a word).


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## spoker (Wednesday at 5:45 AM)

is this the corverre forum or the bycyle one?


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## Olds442 (Wednesday at 6:21 AM)

All you say is true.   The difference is the cost.   Every example you listed saved Schwinn money.   Why throw parts out.   the stuff was there, use it up.   In the GG example, Indys bike would cost them money.   We don’t know the cost of a caliper then,or the disk.    It’s safe to assume the disk was more.  The disk was outsourced also, not made in house.  That’s percentage wise more costly.  Why waste money throwing expensive parts on a cheap part? Which is the in house frame.   The manager would be a bone head if he didn’t find enough calipers to finish the run.   The price didn’t go up.  Not till following model year. So every disk set would have been a lost proposition.    Also, then that would would have been a left over.    Bikes,cars or anything that are dated carry a stigma when the model year flips.  So the dealer needed also to discount.  GG are coveted now, but in 71 they where a part number.  Who knows, maybe the manager made it for his colorblind cousin.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Wednesday at 6:34 AM)

It seems as though no one has mentioned that perhaps different bikes were produced differently. Most of the bikes @GTs58  mentioned were bikes that were already established for a few years and had changes made in later years. The Stingray models were one of the best selling bikes Schwinn ever made and the Krates were flying off the floor the first year, Schwinn new how well they were selling and certainly might have pushed their production ahead of other models knowing they were not going to sit around. We do not know what they were up to. I believe that Schwinn was smart enough to produce bikes they knew would sell and therefor believe that the Dec. stamped bikes could have also been produced and marketed as that same years. The GG may have been on the floor still in '72 but it would not have been there long.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Wednesday at 6:38 AM)

Schwinn was smart enough to get 6 day work weeks out of their employees they were certainly smart enough not to wast there time making Typhoons in December


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## Grey Ghost (Yesterday at 9:03 PM)

Oldbikeguy1960 said:


> I have debated several times with members here on that. I keep getting hit with the old "If the frame date is December it wasn't built until probably February/March and would not have been painted until right before it was built" line.
> I never believed that, at least on Stingrays but I always get told I don't know what I am talking about.



I agree with you Oldguy.

As some have pointed out, in earlier bikes from the 30’s-50’s many parts and frame dates could vary widely on the same bike.  The dropouts could have been stamped well in advance too, who knows?
I think that is possible, no argument here. Those were the days before litigation demanded accurate record keeping and tagging.

However, this presupposes that Schwinn production and procedures remained the same throughout their history.

They did not.

For those who vehemently disagree I submit this thought:

“Just in time delivery”

If you don’t know what that is do some research.

That being said I am submitting part of a letter written to me from a guy who worked at a Schwinn dealership in the late 60’s and onward.

His dealership was in Chicago and he had a friend that was an engineer at the Schwinn factory.
He often got to tour the factory and saw how it worked *during that time period.*

 Read that last part again scoffers.

In my opinion this man would be considered an expert witness.

He mentioned to me that at peak, (like the millionth bike year),  Schwinn was making several thousand bikes a day and never stored “thousands of frames” during those years. For you detractors, that’s  the  60’s and 70’s not pre/post war years.

Here is some of what he has told me about the factory/dealer relationship;

“ I worked at a Schwinn dealer in Chicago. And, I had a friend that was an engineer at the factory. I would get tours of the manufacturing systems with him.

Schwinn usually made bicycles to the purchase orders from the dealer. So, it was ordinary to see all the variety of models coming down the bike assembly line at the same time. 6 varsities, 2 continentals, 8 collegiates, a variety of youth bikes. And when a bike was finished, it went into the carton, and shipping label stuck on for that dealer. As few as a handful of bicycles up to several hundred. The assembler(s) on the moving line were required to see the frame, and attach the correct components. Some people put in forks, then crank sets. As the line moved on, went the calipers, then rear wheel. Generally, they got all the correct components on, and into the box for the intended model. So, piles of handle bars, that look similar may get packed in wrong. Or, they ran out for the moment,,,,, and waiting for more to be made/chromed would be a delay. So, get it in the box and out.
With that thought, yes the frame may not have been made that day or week. But it usually got painted that day as the paint was force dried so that product could get into the boxes within about 2 hours after paint. So, frames were on racks, got tagged with a dealer identifier, and sent off to paint. They could even changed paint colors at the paint booths as each tagged frame came in..They never made 100s of a model/color, to put in cartons to be shipped to a warehouse. That is bad, because what if those just sat for many months. Additionally, as you say. The dropouts may have been stamped shortly before the frame got welded.
I was just 20 years old in 1969, and I though just in time was wrong. But, later I saw the wisdom. It meant every unit made was sold already to the dealer. No need to need storage, and move it several times. Bike cartons went straight into trucks, and on their way to the dealers. Some large shipments went into rail box cars, and off toward the destinations.”


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## Olds442 (Yesterday at 9:28 PM)

Actually just in time meant the delivery of the parts to the factory.   Before JIT the car factorys would have stock piles of parts it may not use for months.  After the Second World War when Japan was building there auto empire, they developed the system.   While what you say about it making it quicker, and more streamlined, that was because the parts where delivered just in time. Saved storage space and inventory dollars.  His name escapes me now, but the engineer was an American.   He approached the American factories first.   They scoffed, then he went to Toyota.  They listened.  Now it’s industry wide.


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## Olds442 (Yesterday at 9:35 PM)

just in time wasn’t a term used to describe the delivery of the car, just in time, but the parts to assemble the car, or in our case the bicycles , if in fact they had adopted the system.


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## Grey Ghost (Yesterday at 10:06 PM)

Thats correct about the parts. US Automakers wouldn’t have survived had they not been willing to see the forward thinking of the foreigners.
Apparently the term was used previously for finished product during this time.


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## GTs58 (Yesterday at 10:46 PM)

As far as thinking a frame is painted and then assembled that day would be a miracle. Schwinn had a huge paint booth, and one color was shot for a specific time per batch size and then another batch would be run and in a different color. The translucent colors were a four-step process.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Today at 2:02 AM)

My head hurts, bottom line is did Schwinn offer a 1972 Grey Ghost?  From my understanding they did not so therefor @indycycling has a 1971 Grey Ghost.


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## tripple3 (Today at 4:21 AM)

I looked for multiple "Likes" on posts in this thread.
Pile 'em up...😍
Where's the pics?
Very Visual, i am....
tryin' to learn.🤓


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Today at 4:45 AM)

tripple3 said:


> I looked for multiple "Likes" on posts in this thread.
> Pile 'em up...😍
> Where's the pics?
> Very Visual, i am....
> ...



He pulled the pictures , he was not happy with the way the post was going. It is a beautiful Dec. '71 stamped Grey ghost. GG only offered in '71 the late date and '72 accessories led to some questions about the year and authenticity


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## Oldbikeguy1960 (Today at 5:15 AM)

I am going out on a limb here, trying to magically calm troubled waters.
The pics were pulled by the OP due to a disagreement over the existence of Disc Brake Grey Ghosts since they were 1971 only.
Disc Brake Krates did not start until the 1972 model year .

Could both sides of the aisle be right here?

In High School I had a GG Disc Brake Orange Krate. "But Rob, that is easier to believe since Orange Krates continued on thru 1972 in Kool Orange and 1973 in Sunset Orange". My bike could've just as easily been left in the Grey base and been a Grey Ghost. The grey was NOT a special color.

True, but the real conflict isn't the color, it is prevailing theory here on whether or not a December 1971 bike was meant to sell as a 1971 or a 1972 model by Schwinn.

In the 1950s /early 1960s the answer wouldve been the next model year because frames sometimes did not become bikes for 2-3 months.
Things changed in the 1960s-1970s with the improved manufacturing processes and massive sales especially of Stingrays and Krates. 

for instance the 1,000,000th Schwinn in 1968 was built on December 10th and obviously was sold as a 1968 even though Krates around it had 1969^ seats and accessories.
The manufacturing date precedent was set by Schwinn then.

Forward to December 1971. The next point made was did the bike sell at the 1971 or 1972 price point? I believe if it had 1972 options that would put it at the 1972 price point. I am sure some, like GTs58 would disagree but I do not care.  The point would be that it was built and shipped out in 1971 so it was a 1971 bicycle. A side note is that Schwinn had calipers and discs coming in mid year, I personally owned 2 disc hubs dated 6-71. Also, a customer could've ordered a Grey Ghost and by the time that order hit the line they were producing Disc Krates so it went out as one.

So, NOT involving myself in the question of whether or not @indycycling has an original paint 1971 Grey Ghost Disc Brake bike or a repainted one, I will say that @indycycling could have a real 1971 Disc Ghost that by the time it sold went out the door at the 1972 price point so both @indycycling and Grey Ghost could be correct in their beliefs.

Remember everyone, I am trying to be mediator here not antagonist so don't hate on the messenger. 

I can go on, if anyone has a point I made that needs clarifying. I end this post here so it doesn't offend a certan person/persons by being 5 pages long, off topic and all about me. You know who you are.
Rob


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## Olds442 (Today at 6:53 AM)

Let’s put it this way.   If 2 GG showed up on the CABE for sale.    both with very late similar stampings.  Both with original head plates, similar dates.    One is advertised like Indy presented his. With the disc.     The other one is offered as we know they came. Caliper.       However, the caliper bike offered has note in the ad.   It says, also offered with this bike, is an early stamp caliper set, complete.      We are assuming both bike are in the same condiction.    Indy has stated a nice repaint gg is 3000 dollars.    So the caliper bike is offered for 3000.   With the disc it is offered for 5000.  
    Thats a fair price, give or take        Then the bike with said factory disc bike is offered for 7000.    So you could have the same bike for 5000, or 7000.    Follow along.  IF we are to believe that Indy bike is real, that would be the holy grail.  2 grand is a deal.  also offered with the Indy bike is copies of all we have discussed here As proof of what he has.    Would you pay 2000 more for his bike? You can weigh all you’ve heard and learned in the past week.  With what has been said, or shown, make you spend 2000 more for that bike? After you mull that around, and arrive at your conclusion, that will tell you how you truly feel.   its your money now.  What would you do?


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## Olds442 (Today at 10:58 AM)

GTS always pops up with facts.   And proof.   What’s the big idea?


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## Vicious Cycle (Today at 11:37 AM)

1971 Schwinn Catalog pic.


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## Olds442 (Today at 12:56 PM)

Schwinn had the best photographer. The right size kid and camera angle to make that bike look full and tough.  You really wanted to be him.   So cool.


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## highwheelerboy25 (Today at 1:23 PM)

I'm loving that the Schwinn catalog photo clearly shows a disc brake!


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Today at 2:13 PM)

Vicious Cycle said:


> 1971 Schwinn Catalog pic.
> 
> View attachment 1767896



WTF


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Today at 2:14 PM)

Vicious Cycle said:


> 1971 Schwinn Catalog pic.
> 
> View attachment 1767896



Is that what I'm seeing?


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## Vicious Cycle (Today at 2:58 PM)

coasterbrakejunkie1969 said:


> Is that what I'm seeing?



Just sayin...


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## Olds442 (Today at 3:25 PM)

Today we call it photo shop.    Then it was airbrushed


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## Grey Ghost (Today at 3:31 PM)

Olds442 said:


> GTS always pops up with facts.   And proof.   What’s the big idea?



He’s dragging out his favorite article.
Problem is, it’s from 1959.

He did unwittingly prove my point though.


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## Olds442 (Today at 3:44 PM)

Hahaha.   Yes it is from 59.   I was so happy reading it the year didn’t register.    Still a cool article.  I must concede, even a quickly aging company like Schwinn prolly updated the paint system.   A million bikes is a lot to paint .    Favorite article…..you sound like my wife clobbering me.


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## Grey Ghost (Today at 3:47 PM)

Olds442 said:


> Hahaha.   Yes it is from 59.   I was so happy reading it the year didn’t register.    Still a cool article.  I must concede, even a quickly aging company like Schwinn prolly updated the paint system.   A million bikes is a lot to paint .    Favorite article…..you sound like my wife clobbering me.



now if GTS would just notice the date....


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## GTs58 (Today at 4:38 PM)

Grey Ghost said:


> now if GTS would just notice the date....



What about it?


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## Grey Ghost (14 minutes ago)

I rest my case.


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