# "Rudge" English bike-need expert !!!



## Pee Wee (Dec 16, 2009)

Question: Friend, just getting into the hobby, purchased a "Rudge" English bike today (at my urging)...antique "20's" looking leather Brooks saddle with springs, front and back, split slot in the middle (Brooks brass tag in rear.)  English "racing green" color, 3-speed Sturmey-Archer shifter and...Sturmey-Archer headlight and tail-light, wheel generator driven.  It has chrome handlebar-activated front brake arm.  The seller was military, US citizen, but spent 3+ years in the Nottingham vincinty, and has an eye for the unusual.  He say's it is from the 1920's. The bike is original in my opinion, minus the frame pump (the attached appendages are there), has all the apparent decals, but shows many years of use and spot rust... nothing that a good 'ole washing, buffing, and waxing can't cure.  I don't know anything about English bicycles, but think this is a "rare jewel" in the eastern half of the U.S. where it is now located.  The chain drive is completely encased (at first glance thought it was direct drive.)  It is not, but completely encased  with a medal housing, shaped for the sprocket and rear gear cog.  Sorry, no pictures.  My questions is ... is there any one out there that can give me (forwarded to him) any information on these bikes ???  Google has too many portals and I hope these brief descriptions will narrow it down for the informed.  My experience is with American made bikes, and this does not have the familiar skip-tooth chain, 28" wheel, that I am familiar with in this vintage.  The pedal arms are scribed "Raleigh" and it has Michelin tires ???  I wanted it, but he wanted it more !  He is close enough that I will be involved with the clean-up, but I think I am more excited than him (the saddle is beautiful.)  Again, just some rough thoughts from anyone in the English related collecting field.  He paid what the saddle is worth in my opinion, so no feelings to hurt here !  Let me know your thoughts...does this sound correct for the 20's in this style bike ??

Thanks in advance,

Pee Wee
(Rookie at this site and the internet, but can show you young whipper-snappers how to put together an old New Departure brake hub blind-folded !)


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## Andrew Gorman (Dec 16, 2009)

The rear hub will have a date code on it- see
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer.html
What does the 3-speed shifter look like?  Is it a quadrant on the top tube (older) or a trigger on the handlebars(newer)?  English roadsters were made pretty much unchanged for 70 odd years.  What size are the wheels on the bike?  As always, a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## ejlwheels (Dec 16, 2009)

here is a site with lots of good pictures and info:

http://oldbike.wordpress.com/1910s-rudge-whitworth-gents-roadster/


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## Pee Wee (Dec 17, 2009)

*Ignorance is the price of not seeking knowledge*

Thanks for the replies.  It is now 24 hours later and I own the bike.  After posting this, I went back to Google and kept looking.  Today I spent some time looking at all the details again today, and "Raleigh" appears on alot of the parts.  Again, the headbadge and decals are "Rudge -Whitworth" but there is a Raleigh sticker under the seat post.  I see from your info that Raleigh bought Rudge in 1943, which I passed along.  My friend was less enthusiastic today so I offered to take it off his hands for what he paid...no secret..$275.   It is now in my shop.  After looking at what you guys suggested, the Sturmey-Archer hub has "64" on it...1964 ???  However, I have a Schwinn delux Racer made in 1965, supposely based off of this style, and the English Roadster looks ANTIQUE beside the Schwinn.   I am now convinced it is early '60's vintage, but what a cool looking machine !  Oh, by the way, it also has a rear rod brake.  The generator lights work, along with an over-sized chromed bell on the left side of the bars.   I will play with this thing and happy with the price.  I will call it the "Malcolm Merriweather Special" after the Andy Griffith character.  He would have been proud to have ridden this thing into Mayberry.  (took it for a spin this afternoon and WOW...smooth as silk !)   The only kicker is that this saddle looks ancient !  It will turn out like an old antique ball glove when I get done with it.  Can't imagine why "Tommy" didn't change his seat style like us "Yanks" did every time a new style came out.

Will be here for awhile and am committed to figuring out how to post pictures.  I am computer-challenged, but feel it my duty to learn, since as you say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Happy Trails to you all !

Pee Wee


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## pedal alley (Dec 17, 2009)

quoteee Wee
(Rookie at this site and the internet, but can show you young whipper-snappers how to put together an old New Departure brake hub blind-folded !) 


being the ripe old age of fourty-two yourself,
 don't believe that you'll find many ,
on this forum that you can call........
"young whipper-snappers ".welcome aboard kid.


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## Pee Wee (Dec 18, 2009)

Thanks !!  I don't have anyone left in my area who taught me or still collects these wonderfull works-of-art.  Forty-two seems ancient when you have a head full of 60+ year old uselage knowledge (doesn't earn me a dime,) that you never witnessed, but is as familiar as yesterday's memory.  The two old bike shops I use to visit when I was younger and learned so much are gone (Walmart now.)  Born too late ?  I see dead people ?  (think about that one.)  Glad to know some of this stuff is remembered by someone who was there to see it...greatest resource !    Funny thing, today I went by to return the tie-downs I borrowed from my friend (age 65) and now is having second thoughts, wants to buy the bike back if I agree (feels like ping-pong with the cash and the bike, but it is all in fun.)  My wife, instead of being mad, thinks we are real mental cases !  History needs to be preserved and interpreted...that's my excuse anyway !
If he wants it back at the same price, it is his.  In the meantime, plan to put some saddle soap on the leather seat, get the chrome polished, and hopefully figure out how to get some pics posted, along with some other bikes, the weekend after Christmas.  Stay tuned....


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## Coreyk (Dec 19, 2009)

*Looking forward to pics*

The Roadsters are my favorite type of bike, nowadays. Is this a 26 x 1 3/8 wheel bike, or a 28 x 1 1/2 wheel size? 
They made both, especially in the 40s through the mid-60s. The 26 x 1 3/8 wheeled versions were typically marketed as shopping or city bikes. 
The Raleigh variant of that model was called the "Dawn Tourist", at least in the 50s. It's rare to see the smaller wheeled versions with rod brakes after that.

I have a 1980 Raleigh DL-1 and a neighbor's 1957 Phillips double bar roadster here.

Cheers, and happy riding,

Corey K


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## Rus Tea (Dec 19, 2009)

Hope you get to keep the old Rudge. If you sell it back, insist on unsupervised weekend visitations in the Park!   Dating ( as in when made, not the relationship ) may be hard to nail down in that an older bike may have a newer rear hub and wheel, the older it gets the more likely it could have happened.


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## Pee Wee (Dec 20, 2009)

My "Rudge" (with Raleigh stamped parts and decal under seat post) has 26" wheels and the serial number, under the seat post is # 418XX with a "B" underneath.  The Rudege-Whitworth decal also appears on the rear fender. The Brooks saddle has three springs, two in back and one in front, and the springs underneath the seat are painted black.  Again, the rear hub is stamped 64, but the rims on front, which has the correct oiler hole and clip, is different from the rear rim.   I saw Sheldon Browns's serial number thread for these bikes, but I cannot nail down anything difinitive.   I am going to keep this one through the end of the year and hopefully my friend will move on to another model and lose interest.  But, if he brings it up again, it is only a hobby and friendships are more important.  On Monday, I knew nothing about English bikes.  Now, after several nights of research, I have an intense interest in these hand-made works of art.


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## sam (Dec 20, 2009)

A 26" wheeled Rod Brake bike.Usually the 26" rod brake bikes were girls frames.Is a boys or girls type frame?Does it have 26X1&1/2" tires(tyres on brit bikes)or 26x1&3/8" ?


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## partsguy (Dec 20, 2009)

pedal alley said:


> quoteee Wee
> (Rookie at this site and the internet, but can show you young whipper-snappers how to put together an old New Departure brake hub blind-folded !)
> 
> 
> ...






I'm a "young-whipper-snapper". 16 here.


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## Rus Tea (Dec 20, 2009)

I think the 26" tires class your bike as a Sport bike and not a Roadster which would have 28" tires.  You can verify this by examining the head tube angle.  The Roadster had a relaxed angle giving it a long wheel base, the Sport's is greater, more like a contemporary road bike.  Interested to hear what you have, I thought rod brakes were found only on the roadsters?


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## Pee Wee (Dec 21, 2009)

This is the male frame with 26 x 1 3/8 wheel.  The seat and bars are adjusted just as it came from the family in England, which evidently was for a tall gentelmen.  I am 5'11" and I am on my tip-toes when still.  I did ride it for about 200 yards tonight, generator engaged (both lights works, but intermitent.)  I then jumped on my '65 Schwinn "delux Racer" to compare the ride...hard to judge.  Both are smooth, but I think the posture and adjustment of the Rudge was more comfortable.  The English bike is much heavier.  I did notice that where the oiler for the rear hub should be (it is missing,) is pluged with what appears to be a black gum substance ??  It clicks, and where I read earlier, means "give me oil."  My gut insticnt is this is not the original rear wheel...the front rim is different and has the correct oiler hole and clip.  Rod brakes, rod brake handles, chromed front light, dark British green color, old style Brooks leather saddle...I'm hooked.


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## Pee Wee (Dec 21, 2009)

Russ-Tea,
I did not see your post prior to my last entry.  It is a Roadster, based on everything I have learned over the past few days.  The bike, according to the over-all patina, is original.  The chain and sprocket is completely encased which from what I have read, is indicative of the Roadster.  It has a convenient threaded cap at the top of the case, to apparently drop oil on the chain.  It has a sliding door at the crank, and the round piece will pop- out if needed.   Again, never had anything like this so curiosity has the best of me.  It is cold at my location and very busy with outbound family Christmas visits, have not had any dedicated shop time, but do go in for a minute or two after work to study, and find something new or odd everytime.  I hope that it will warm up over the weekend after Christmas so that I can spend some time with it and figure out (acutally, my wife) how to post pics here.  Great hobby !


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## Pee Wee (Dec 21, 2009)

*More detail*

After the last reply, I braved the cold and went out to the shop:

 The bell on the left side of the bars (as you ride) is about 3.5 inches in diameter, stamped on top, "King of the Road" with a lion and rays, and "Lucas" underneath the lion.  The bell produces a one bell tone, like a butcher's meat counter bell.  The wheels measure 26" across, from outer tire tread.   The rear reflector on the mud guard is a black rubber housing, and the red reflector is stamped with Raleigh Industires LLC.  All decals are Rudge-Whitworth, Nottingham England, except for the Raleigh decal under the seat post.  The front headlight -yellowed (age) lense has Sturmey-Archer stamped into it.  The chromed appendage, that the front light is attached, has the Rudge "hand" symbol cut out.   Hope this will shed some light until a picture appears.   Dark green painted frame has dark rust popping through.  Any suggestions on cleaning-waxing-preserving without destroying decals ?

Pee Wee


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## Rus Tea (Dec 21, 2009)

Pee Wee,

I was thinking about your question regarding dating the Rudge.  Since the rear wheel seems altered, check they generator case, they are often dated stamped.


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## Deejay (Dec 22, 2009)

It sounds like you've acquired a nice bike even if it's not as old as you originally thought. I haven't seen rod brakes since the 1950's although I don't pretend to know a lot about them. Rudge also made motorcycles until it went bankrupt and was sold to Raleigh in 1943. My old James bicycle, which I think dates from the 1930's, was also manufactured by a motorcycle company. When you are able to post a photo of your bike, I'd love to see it!


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