# Frame decode help



## vince72 (Oct 12, 2021)

Hey Guys, 
I am working on getting a deal on a speedster frame & need some info on year FA87595 is the numbers on the left drop out, are these enough to decode or should I be looking for more? Also, it will need a front fork what years are interchangeable?


Vince


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## Rivnut (Oct 12, 2021)

The numbers will tell you only the month and year the frame was built.  Not necessarily when the completed bike was built nor the model. All middleweight frames basically start out the same. Most forks from both boys and girls middleweight bikes will interchange.  Some of the later forks have a smaller i.d. so earlier handlebar stems do not fit; just the stamped and rolled stems are smaller in diameter.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Oct 12, 2021)

Rivnut said:


> ; just the stamped and rolled stems are smaller in diameter.



The cast stems after '65 they are also the smaller diameter will work as well, like the ones that come on Stingrays and higher end bikes.


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Oct 12, 2021)

vince72 said:


> Hey Guys,
> I am working on getting a deal on a speedster frame & need some info on year FA87595 is the numbers on the left drop out, are these enough to decode or should I be looking for more? Also, it will need a front fork what years are interchangeable?
> 
> 
> Vince



I came up with 1965 for yours. Any middleweight fork will work even ladies. Like Riv said the inside diameter of steere tube changed in '65 but they will still work on your frame it is just the stem that needs to be specific to that fork.


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## vince72 (Oct 12, 2021)

What is the size of the stem I should be looking for? I will post pics of the frame once I get it for you guys


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Oct 12, 2021)

vince72 said:


> What is the size of the stem I should be looking for? I will post pics of the frame once I get it for you guys



Depends on the year of the fork. I forget the actual measurements but they are not much different from each other. I will get them a little later. Did you find a fork yet? Are you looking for a color or is the bike set to be painted?


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## Rusty Klunker (Oct 12, 2021)

A 65 speedster is a lightweight bike. The head tube should be 4" and a middle weight is around 5-1/4"


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## coasterbrakejunkie1969 (Oct 12, 2021)

Rusty Klunker said:


> A 65 speedster is a lightweight bike. The head tube should be 4" and a middle weight is around 5-1/4"



Thank you, yes you are right,  I forgot it was only a few years as a middleweight. my bad


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## Rusty Klunker (Oct 12, 2021)

I had a 68 speedster a while back that I had built up. Had a unicrown fork (BMX fork) for a 26" middleweight on it for a little while. It had extra long threads and was able to cut it down. Later had forks from a 27" 10 speed on it, they bolted right up.


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## vince72 (Oct 12, 2021)

Not sure if this helps
It came with BMW forks but I want the originals


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## GTs58 (Oct 12, 2021)

You can use any year fork but you'll need to mate up the stem and top jam nut. The forks changed in the 66 model year to the smaller steerer tube ID so the  smaller 21mm stem is required. 

The serial number does not tell you the month the frame was made and in some cases it does not tell you the year either. But that's a whole nuther subject.


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## vince72 (Oct 12, 2021)

Haha not much info from the serial number on these bikes.


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## GTs58 (Oct 12, 2021)

vince72 said:


> Haha not much info from the serial number on these bikes.




The serial in most cases will give you an idea of the time the bike was built. The date associated to the serial is the date the number was stamped on the frame component before it was used to build a frame. The bike was built sometime later, maybe two to three months or 12 and in the case with some of the MR serials (Dec. 80) it's been over a year later. In 1976 the actual build dates were stamped on the head badges so checking the gap between the dates will give you an idea of how long it took to build a bike from SN stamping to the end.


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## Rivnut (Oct 12, 2021)

In looking through some catalog scans for 1965 Schwinn I found information that says that the Speedster was a “specially built 24” bicycle. That may have some bearing on the length of the steer tube.  Probably worth it to have the fork straightened.


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## vince72 (Oct 12, 2021)

So it’s not a 26”?


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## J-wagon (Oct 12, 2021)

Hey Vince, nice camelback. Speedster came in 26 and 24 frames. I can't tell from pic but if possible compare black frame to your other one. Or ask seller for measurements like chainstay length and compare to your 26. A 24 frame will have shorter chainstay. Good luck with build!


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## GTs58 (Oct 12, 2021)

vince72 said:


> So it’s not a 26”?




Is it? The Speedster coaster was made in a 26-24-20 inch. Looks like the left drop out has been ground off a bit.


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## vince72 (Oct 12, 2021)

Good idea Jack… it is a 26”
I picked this up for $40 as a parts bike I hope to use everything except the fork


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## Arnold Ziffel (Oct 12, 2021)

F=June  &  A=1965
As others have mentioned,   later stems, from '66 onward are 21.1mm  diameter  while '65 & earlier are 22.2mm diameter.

I  DO  NOT  KNOW THE EXACT PRODUCTION DATE WHEN THIS WAS FINALIZED.
Forks can be changed,  and who knows the exact date in  early'66 or very late '65 when they exhausted the ones that required the 22.2mm stems?

The later front forks are obviously superior to something earlier which takes the 22.2mm.
Schwinn engineering felt strongly about the thicker tube where the stem goes, thus the change to a smaller 21.1mm diameter stem to fit inside the now thicker walled tube.   Anything from a similar frame size Collegiate, Speedster, Racer, Breeze or even a 27 inch(630mm) wheeled VARSITY should work fine,  as  you know the Collegiate with (26 inch 597mm wheel) has longer reach Weinmann side pulls (L.S. 2.8 are the markings seen on '69 & later  while Weinmann 810 is seen on '68 models BUT THEY ARE THE SAME EXACT WEINMANN side pull......schwinn began having their own designated code markings on the brakes from 1969 onward)     While the Collegiate has  the longer reach L.S. 2.8    while the 27" inch-630mm wheel VARSITY has the not as long L.S. 2.4 side pulls.    ..........The forged BLADE front fork is essentially the same for the similar size frame.    Obviously a front fork from  a  24 inch sized frame  will differ  from one from a 19 inch frame.    Sure, you can probably possibly successfully cut down one with too long of what  gets threaded to the frame,  but if that portion is too short to fit the frame size, obviously it won't work for that.

I have never done a detailed examination or analysis of  the blade forks seen on Schwinn lightweights to know if any other physical differences exist between any of them between the FIFTIES and 1980 &  the Chicago end.

I DO OBSERVE THAT THE  Traditional Chromed Steel SCHWINN Quil stem which was common on lightweights of the SEVENTIES: such as COLLEGIATE,  VARSITY,  SUBURBAN, BREEZE, SPEEDSTER, and others ,    --DID SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGE IN A MINOR WAY VISIBLY  AROUND  THE 1975 Model YEAR............because beginning about 1975 if you look at the underneath sides of the  (  7  shaped portion that is external and visible)    if  you look and compare 1975 & later TRADITIONAL CHROMED STEEL Schwinn Quil stems to those from 1974 & earlier and you will find that it appears that a significant amount of excess metal (weight) has been purposely been scalloped out  in the machining process..................1974 and earlier have chunky  rounded  under sides,   where the 1975, 1976 models onward have flattened scalloped sides.........NOW YOU CANNOT SEE THIS UNLESS YOU SQUAT DOWN LIKE A CATCHER IN A BASEBALL GAME  BESIDE THE BIKE UNDER THE HANDLEBARS VIEWING THE BIKE FROM EACH SIDE.   This change does not matter from a stength or functionality perspective,  but  someone knowledgeable would notice the difference if they did squat down to view the underside to check. Otherwise they have the same exact look from a riding position viewpoint.   I imagine it actually cost Schwinn a few cents more per unit to reduce that  amount of material there but the Public began to view Schwinn bikes as extremely heavy compared to other imported  bike boom era lightweights.   It could have been the exactly the opposite reason where perhaps some production efficiency resulted in this change.   I don't know.   

As for the forged steel BLADE forks......you know which models to find them on.    You can GOOGLE: 1971 - 1980 Schwinn Catalogs,     and You can GOOGLE: 1961 - 1970 Schwinn Catalogs,  ...................you should see some WATERFORD sites LINKS for the pdf catalogs through the years.     Spend time looking through those.    You'll also see that Waterford also has the  catalogs  from the FIFTIES also,  as  each distinctive link has ten years or so of catalogs there.
       NOW,  THE  Seventies era SUBURBAN, introduced in 1970 ,  HAS  THE  Tubular Front Fork that the Continental also has.
I don't know if that is a potential consideration,  but  you may want to know that is where you can find the Schwinn tubular front fork.

You already know that just based on the modern mountain bike fork that resides there now,  that you have numerous possibilities that might work,  depending on your desired results and some investigating and measuring


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## freddy (Oct 13, 2021)

what size wheels does the frame take


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## vince72 (Oct 13, 2021)

26" wheels


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## ADKBIKES (Oct 18, 2021)

I HAVE BLACK FORKS FROM A RACER


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## Arnold Ziffel (Oct 18, 2021)

Somebody mentioned that the SPEEDSTER was once a Middleweight (CANTILEVER) in 1961.
IN 1962, IT SEEMS, THAT SCHWINN renamed this MIDDLEWEIGHT with SKIPPER & TIGER names instead of Speedster.
IN 1963, IT SEEMS THAT SCHWINN renamed this MIDDLEWEIGHT again with HORNET & TYPHOON.




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						Schwinn catalogs, 1961 - 1970 (35 of 765)
					





					waterfordbikes.com
				




IN 1963,  Schwinn applies the SPEEDSTER name on a LIGHTWEIGHT  with "curved bar" top bar




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						Schwinn catalogs, 1961 - 1970 (131 of 765)
					





					waterfordbikes.com
				




Now pardon me, if I am nearly totally wrong,  about the following which I speculate is somewhat reasonably accurate, but I have not made or compiled measurements on the various year frames.  I have repaired & helped friends and neighbors rebuild various fifties and early sixties Schwinn lightweights but that was done fifty years ago when they were still commonly found in parent's or neighbor, or older brother's or uncle's garage.   Even during the very early seventies during the bike boom, these old Schwinn lightweights made reasonable project bikes as  bicycles with gears were selling-out everywhere, and incredible demand had dealers pricing at what the market would bear.
So we often made a suitable size framed bicycle,  using something from a bike that had a frame size that was either too small or too big.    We  generally made five speeds  equipped with a SHIMANO rear derailleur from these former ancient lightweight 3 speed frames of the fifties & early sixties.   Why? Rear derailleur technology by the Shimano LARK model of the late sixties was supremely reliable and simple to set-up and adjust,  and  assuming that you had a freewheel with at least a 28teeth largest rear  cog (as seen on late 60's thru seventies Varsity/Continental or '64-'69 Collegiate) it would be okay,  but the 32 teeth largest rear cog (seen on '70 onward Collegiate & 5 speed SUBURBAN) was best.    Shimano sold an aftermarket freewheel by 1971 which had a 34 teeth (actually 17 skip tooth first gear..) and a derailleur called the Crane or something like that.   I think you'll see a Shimano ad in the 1972 Popular Mechanics (may 72 issue I think ) which has a story on bicycles.   Most folks that purchased such an aftmkt Shimano freewheel with the 34 t  first gear were 10 speed owners that wanted to travel long distances as the added HILL CLIMBING capability is invaluable.   Only the Japanese equipment was so capable,  as nothing from Europe could reliably shift anything more than 28teeth.   Maeda SUNTOUR later offered various freewheels with either 30T, 32T or 34T largest rear cogs.     

Nothing is wrong with the typical old 3 speed,   but  a  FIVE SPEED with  32 T  largest cog on the freewheel and a Japanese rear derailleur capable of shifting a 32 T cog,  is by far a better and more useful overall rider than any 3 speed.   One can obtain a reasonably good hill climbing with a 28T largest cog freewheel by  going with a 42T chainwheel up front  INSTEAD OF 46T (typical Schwinn) and INSTEAD of 48T that I think some old Raleighs and ROSS bikes may have had.     At the end of the day, it is what makes the gear ratio,  and not necessarily what the Front or Rear number individually might be........it is the combined that produces your gear number in a particular combination.      

THE 1953 TRAVELER  (LIGHTWEIGHT) was available in ONLY  one  frame size,  I think.




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						Schwinn brochures and catalogs, 1951 - 1960 (24 of 157)
					





					waterfordbikes.com
				



THE 1953 TOURIST (LIGHTWEIGHT)




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						Schwinn brochures and catalogs, 1951 - 1960 (26 of 157)
					





					waterfordbikes.com
				



My understanding is that SCHWINN copied COLUMBIA  who had advertised their late Forties LIGHTWEIGHT bikes with a ONE PIECE  bottom bracket  for supreme durability and practicallity.    (See 1948 Columbia ads)
Schwinn did away with the 3 piece crank on all electroforged common LIGHTWEIGHTS soon after Columbia did.  By 1953 the Ashtabula one piece bottom bracket was there on perhaps everything other than the handbuilt PARAMOUNT.
These LIGHTWEIGHT  TRAVELER, TOURIST, that would morph into later names like RACER, SPEEDSTER, and derailleur equipped Electroforged LIGHTWEIGHT with VARSITY, COLLEGIATE, SUBURBAN etc.
The SUBURBAN was new for 1970 and essentially replaced the VARSITY tourist which had 1969 as its last year.   The 1970 SUBURBAN 10 speed does differ in that it is an upgrade of the VARSITY,  having the tubular front fork of the Continental.
1970 was the introduction of the SUBURBAN which came in 10 SPEED(essentially an upgraded former VARSITY TOURIST), and a 5 SPEED(that was along with the '70 Collegiate, the first Schwinn to feature Shimano.) The 5 speed SUBURBAN was the 27" wheel (630mm bead seat diameter) 27 x 1 1/4  wheeled  "collegiate like" bike which unlike the Collegiate, came with painted fenders, a padded mattress saddle, bow pedals, 27"(630mm) wheels and subdued, more conservative paint colors than the Collegiate.    FOR 1970 & 1971 ONLY,  there was a 3 SPEED  SUBURBAN in the line-up also.   IT WAS NOT IN THE LINE-UP FROM 1972 - 1977.            All the Suburbans,  I  think  have  the tubular front fork,  except as noted by Schwinn expert  Metacortex  who  has noted previously  that  there was a week or so in Apr 1974 where the Schwinn factory was out of tubular forks and they substituted VARSITY front forks, capped with a dress up chrome cap and the factory modified the fender mounts on the Suburban fenders to mount precisely on those Varsity front forks. (this info came from Metacortex, the recognized World's leading expert on Schwinn).      
If anyone knows the definitive answer on if and how ordinary Schwinn LIGHTWEIGHT frames differ in  wheelbase and frame geometry from the early fifties through the Seventies,   it  would be Metacortex.
You may be able to go through each annual Schwinn catalog year by year as well as any supplemental publications to see what Schwinn gives as to the improvements & changes from the prior year(s).      
Unlike with the Schwinn Sting Ray which was probably more unsafe at any speed than the early Chevrolet Corvair,  Schwinn engineering mostly focused on making bicycles that were more stable, controlled, and comfortable to ride.  That Sting-Ray was simply capturing a craze/fad that proved to be a bicycle which led to much more youth being badly injured.  While the bike was not defective,  the crazy handlebars contributed to plenty of impalement/internal injuries  as  riders were able to ride that bike in ways that no one had ridden a bicycle before about '64 or '65.    If I recall legistation or at least severe govermental agency pressure was the sole reason that the bars were severely limited in overall size about six or seven years after introduction.
My guess is that SCHWINN engineering probably figured out what provided the BEST OVERALL wheelbase and seat-tube/headtube Lengths & respective frame angles  to   obtain the most predictable mannered,  comfortable, and stable best riding  by  the  Mid SIXTIES.     My guess is that the older bikes from say 1953,  probably are perhaps slightly different, but perhaps not too much to matter.   Certainly,  one does expect  a  1966 and up SCHWINN to be slightly better.  You also have more options in frame sizes as the SEVENTIES begins.    Schwinn made quality bikes, so that even something from before the early sixties will be excellent.   Exterior paint quality won't be nearly as good on an early fifties Schwinn compared to something from 1966 - 1980.    





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						Schwinn brochures and catalogs, 1951 - 1960 (84 of 157)
					





					waterfordbikes.com
				




The above link (1957) might be when the RACER name appears.   I seem to remember that it gets retired after around 1971 or so as the SPEEDSTER & the RACER are essentially identical around 1971,   and  Schwinn marketing obviously realized that SPEEDSTER was the better looking decal by the seventies,  and the name racer  had become a generic name more synonymous with a drop bar ten speed by the beginning of the bike boom.

IF YOU FIND YOURSELF STUCK INSIDE OF MOBILE (or whatever city you live in) WITH THE CANNOT RIDE TODAY BLUES  because of Rain,  Extreme weather,  Snow, or sub freezing temperatures,   and you have free time to wander through the old Schwinn catalogs that are up on the web courtesy of the waterford site.   Waterford,  led by a Schwinn who retained the prestigious PARAMOUNT line, and continues that handbuilt supreme quality and technical excellence.
Just GOOGLE:  1951-1960 Schwinn Catalogs  for FIFTIES ERA
GOOGLE: 1961-1970 Schwinn Catalogs for SIXTIES ERA
GOOGLE: 1971-1980 Schwinn Catalogs for SEVENTIES ERA
Just look for the waterfordbikes  LINKS for those decades, etc.


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## GTs58 (Oct 19, 2021)

Arnold Ziffel said:


> Somebody mentioned that the SPEEDSTER was once a Middleweight (CANTILEVER) in 1961.
> IN 1962, IT SEEMS, THAT SCHWINN renamed this MIDDLEWEIGHT with SKIPPER & TIGER names instead of Speedster.
> IN 1963, IT SEEMS THAT SCHWINN renamed this MIDDLEWEIGHT again with HORNET & TYPHOON.
> 
> ...




The Speedster replaced the American when it was discontinued after the 1958 production. The Speedster middleweight was a two and a half year only model name, 1959-1960 and early 1961. In July 1961 the American was reintroduced taking it's place back from the Speedster.


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