# Where's the best place to find a reasonably priced, rideable TOC bike?



## JoeBass (Jun 26, 2021)

Haven't seen anything pop up in the classifieds here recently, or on eBay. Where would you look if you were trying to find a reasonably priced, not-restored but rideable, TOC bike?


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## Archie Sturmer (Jun 26, 2021)

Maybe type in “ToC” in the Search feature on this site, checking box for titles-only?


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## locomotion (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeBass said:


> Haven't seen anything pop up in the classifieds here recently, or on eBay. Where would you look if you were trying to find a reasonably priced, not-restored but rideable, TOC bike?



what is "reasonably priced" to you?

expect a bike that is 121 years old, unrestored and in rideable condition to have a certain value!


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## fordmike65 (Jun 26, 2021)

Honestly, it'll have to be "restored" to some point if you want it rideable. Either a very good original wheelset that has been serviced/repaired & most likely equipped with Deans tires, which run roughly $150+ each. Nice period-looking clincher wheelsets sell here for $400-500. I'm thinking about $1k to get a TOC bike up & running(depending on model, rarity & how complete it is), unless you come across a great deal, or don't mind using a 700c coaster brake wheelset off a modern bike. The 28" wheels are what kills getting a TOC-early 30's bike on the road for a reasonable price.


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## Superman1984 (Jun 26, 2021)

fordmike65 said:


> Honestly, it'll have to be "restored" to some point if you want it rideable. Either a very good original wheelset that has been serviced/repaired & most likely equipped with Deans tires, which run roughly $150+ each. Nice period-looking clincher wheelsets sell here for $400-500. I'm thinking about $1k to get a TOC bike up & running(depending on model, rarity & how complete it is), unless you come across a great deal, or don't mind using a 700c coaster brake wheelset off a modern bike. The 28" wheels are what kills getting a TOC-early 30's bike on the road for a reasonable price.



A member here just told me $300+ for 28" tires 🤔 If that is true then yeah those 700c wheels would be very tempting jus' to have a rider


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## JoeBass (Jun 26, 2021)

I’d be expecting to pay around 1k. Camille over at Cycles 1900 has some nice looking bikes in that price range that he says are rideable but everything is a little too big for me.








						CYCLES1900 / Achat&vente de vélos de collection / France
					

Cycles1900 : maison spécialisée dans l'achat et la vente de vélos anciens d'exception.  Cycles des années 1880 à 1950.  Expédition dans le monde entier




					en.cycles1900.com


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## bikejunk (Jun 26, 2021)

a decent ridable wheel set will cost you 700 dollars  wheels + tires - for about 300 you can buy a pre war English bike  with 28 inch wheels and get the same look feeling as a TOC bike


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## dnc1 (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeBass said:


> I’d be expecting to pay around 1k. Camille over at Cycles 1900 has some nice looking bikes in that price range that he says are rideable but everything is a little too big for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Camille does have fantastic machines, he finds amazing stuff.
But the prices are at the top end of retail pricing.

French Ebay has TOC stuff for sale every week at far more reasonable prices,  but you'll find that the cost of shipping and import duties are the killers when it comes to bringing these into the USA. 
It's the same when I enquire about shipping costs from the USA to the UK,  crazy prices!

The only way you can do it cheaply is if you know someone who is travelling from where the bike is situated, to your homeland. They can box a bike and take it on a plane at a far cheaper cost than shipping it. You will still officially need to pay import duties though!


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## dnc1 (Jun 26, 2021)

Also, and in relation to your tyre related thread, another thing to consider with TOC French bicycles is also tyre sizing and availability. 

Many early French bicycles have tyres that are described as 28" which are 700A size. These are not easy to get hold of even in France; only one retailer that I know of and their stock is not always available. 
This size is a larger diameter than  English 28" (700B),  which is larger itself than the modern 28" (700C) size.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 27, 2021)

The two things usually against most TOC bikes in my opinion is the aforementioned cost of a decent wheelset but secondly as you allude to is frame size. I still don't understand why so many of these frames are 24" or beyond given the average height of a man (U.S.) at the time was only about 5'7 1/2" (source USDA). I think realistically you will be in for a couple grand for something decent and ridable that is (or looks) period correct. A lot of these are pure, simple diamond frame bikes as soon as you start looking at suspensions, unusual frames, fancy lugs or other gadgetry the prices escalate pretty rapidly. V/r Shawn


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## Craig Allen (Jun 27, 2021)

Try the Wheelmen facebook.


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## locomotion (Jun 27, 2021)

riding a ladies bike might help you on the cost issue and the rider's height issue 
original and complete TOC men's bikes are often worth way more than $1000 just in parts .... then you have to add the shipping cost


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## Billythekid (Jun 27, 2021)

I’ve be into antique bike a couple years now and from what I’ve seen $1000 is a basic diamond frame and u can spend as much as u want from there . If you post some pics of bikes you like mabe some members will tell you Around water running one would cost


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## vincev (Dec 29, 2021)

Avoid buying a bike from a bike collector.They are usually higher than somebody who doesnt know about bikes,When I buy collectable items I dont want to buy from a collector of that item usually.


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## alexander55 (Dec 29, 2021)

I had wanted a TOC "rider" for quite some time and was fortunate to find a 1914 Peerless.  I thought I could make the size fit and ride it with reasonable comfort.  The bike had been repainted badly some years back but it was all there.  I only collect original paint bikes but since this one was going to be a "rider", I bought it and invested in a restoration.  Jeff Bock (custom builder in Ames, Iowa) and I found the original colors up in the headtube and Jeff redid the paint for me.  I am very pleased with his work.  I saved the original wood rims (and they will always stay with the bike.  Laced old hubs to new wood rims from Noah Stutzman (Amish wheel maker in Ohio).  His wheels are maple and have a metal rim inside the wood.  That, obviously, gives extra strength and allows for the use of modern clincher tires.  Used a new Brooks saddle and a new chain and some new foam grips.  I'm pleased with how it turned out and I was able to ride a 100 mile/century ride on it at The Wheelmen Annual Meet on Mackinaw Island in August, 2021.  I obviously have more than $1000 in it, but it's a ONE TIME project - the only bike I'm going to restore  - and I plan to keep it until I can't ride any longer.


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## Superman1984 (Dec 29, 2021)

alexander55 said:


> I had wanted a TOC "rider" for quite some time and was fortunate to find a 1914 Peerless.  I thought I could make the size fit and ride it with reasonable comfort.  The bike had been repainted badly some years back but it was all there.  I only collect original paint bikes but since this one was going to be a "rider", I bought it and invested in a restoration.  Jeff Bock (custom builder in Ames, Iowa) and I found the original colors up in the headtube and Jeff redid the paint for me.  I am very pleased with his work.  I saved the original wood rims (and they will always stay with the bike.  Laced old hubs to new wood rims from Noah Stutzman (Amish wheel maker in Ohio).  His wheels are maple and have a metal rim inside the wood.  That, obviously, gives extra strength and allows for the use of modern clincher tires.  Used a new Brooks saddle and a new chain and some new foam grips.  I'm pleased with how it turned out and I was able to ride a 100 mile/century ride on it at The Wheelmen Annual Meet on Mackinaw Island in August, 2021.  I obviously have more than $1000 in it, but it's a ONE TIME project - the only bike I'm going to restore  - and I plan to keep it until I can't ride any longer.
> 
> View attachment 1536823
> 
> View attachment 1536824



I Reeeally DIG those colors on that bike! I mean TOC stuff isn't my idea bike but You have a Looker Anyone Should be able to appreciate seeing at least. Ride the wheels off it 'til You can't ride No More! Hopefully many more years from Now


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## alexander55 (Dec 29, 2021)

Superman1984 said:


> I Reeeally DIG those colors on that bike! I mean TOC stuff isn't my idea bike but You have a Looker Anyone Should be able to appreciate seeing at least. Ride the wheels off it 'til You can't ride No More! Hopefully many more years from Now



Thank you.  I appreciate it.  It was fun to find the original colors up in the headbadge/fork and the advertisement from the Sears catalog that showed the bike and gave some details.  1914 probably isn't technically TOC but I hope it's close enough.  I definitely ride it...but frankly look for fairly flat ground and places where I am not likely to have to stop quickly.  HA.  Thanks again.


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## Superman1984 (Dec 29, 2021)

alexander55 said:


> Thank you.  I appreciate it.  It was fun to find the original colors up in the headbadge/fork and the advertisement from the Sears catalog that showed the bike and gave some details.  1914 probably isn't technically TOC but I hope it's close enough.  I definitely ride it...but frankly look for fairly flat ground and places where I am not likely to have to stop quickly.  HA.  Thanks again.



I fully understand all of that entirely hahaha. Better to take it easy and live another day for another ride  

I bet the grin on your face seein' the colors in the frame & then seeing them like new on the frame was Rocket Fuel to The Moon. I wouldn't stress the TOC too much .... We're right here at 2022 - years beyond 1800s & the early 1900s


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## dnc1 (Dec 29, 2021)

alexander55 said:


> I had wanted a TOC "rider" for quite some time and was fortunate to find a 1914 Peerless.  I thought I could make the size fit and ride it with reasonable comfort.  The bike had been repainted badly some years back but it was all there.  I only collect original paint bikes but since this one was going to be a "rider", I bought it and invested in a restoration.  Jeff Bock (custom builder in Ames, Iowa) and I found the original colors up in the headtube and Jeff redid the paint for me.  I am very pleased with his work.  I saved the original wood rims (and they will always stay with the bike.  Laced old hubs to new wood rims from Noah Stutzman (Amish wheel maker in Ohio).  His wheels are maple and have a metal rim inside the wood.  That, obviously, gives extra strength and allows for the use of modern clincher tires.  Used a new Brooks saddle and a new chain and some new foam grips.  I'm pleased with how it turned out and I was able to ride a 100 mile/century ride on it at The Wheelmen Annual Meet on Mackinaw Island in August, 2021.  I obviously have more than $1000 in it, but it's a ONE TIME project - the only bike I'm going to restore  - and I plan to keep it until I can't ride any longer.
> 
> View attachment 1536823
> 
> View attachment 1536824



...and if you did the century ride dressed TOC style as in your photo I salute you!
Although I'm not a massive fan of restored bikes you've done a fantastic job of restoration and it's always nice to see how colourful some of those early bicycles actually were.
Long may you enjoy riding it.


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## alexander55 (Dec 29, 2021)

dnc1 said:


> ...and if you did the century ride dressed TOC style as in your photo I salute you!
> Although I'm not a massive fan of restored bikes you've done a fantastic job of restoration and it's always nice to see how colourful some of those early bicycles actually were.
> Long may you enjoy riding it.



Thanks.  I appreciate the kind remarks.  Like you, I much prefer original paint but made an exception for this one as a "rider".  I too was really surprised at the brightness of the original colors! And...to be clear, I rode the 100 in modern cycling clothes.  The "period" clothes are only for the short (less than 20 mile) rides and parades.  Ha.  The picture was from our 10 mile "parade" around Mackinaw Island.  Thanks again!


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## Balloontyre (Dec 30, 2021)

JoeBass said:


> Haven't seen anything pop up in the classifieds here recently, or on eBay. Where would you look if you were trying to find a reasonably priced, not-restored but rideable, TOC bike?



Ya might post a wanted ad with yer budget, might be something out there not offered currently.


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## New Mexico Brant (Dec 30, 2021)

Balloontyre said:


> Ya might post a wanted ad with yer budget, might be something out there not offered currently.



He did:


JoeBass said:


> I’d be expecting to pay around 1k. Camille over at Cycles 1900 has some nice looking bikes in that price range that he says are rideable but everything is a little too big for me.


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## bikebozo (Dec 31, 2021)

Go to a bike show , get in touch with Via Bicycle/Curtis Anthony-get in touch with Sam FitzSimmons /Cutler Bay Maryland -Jesse McCauley here on the CABE, Sometimes there is a rideable example for or near the 1,000 mark , expect to pay 1,500 for a good piece .remember the RD, tires are close to 350 mounted-good luck the bikes are not rare , there are some nice interesting bicycles that are always available especially if you go to memory lane or Ann Arbor


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## Fritz Katzenjammer (Dec 31, 2021)

Okay, I’m finding this really interesting and we are obviously talking old, seriously old bicycles...

But could someone help the noob out and tell me what ToC means? I did try and look it up, really I did.


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## lgrinnings (Dec 31, 2021)

Turn Of the Century, or Turn Of Century.


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## Fritz Katzenjammer (Dec 31, 2021)

lgrinnings said:


> Turn Of the Century, or Turn Of Century.



Yup, seems about right... now I feel like a dope.

I could see where use could be limited given the fragility of old wood rims.

I wonder if the overly tall frames seen on some of these things is a throwback to the ordinary, where size mattered and bigger was better/faster or more stylish. It wouldn’t be the first time a useful item was spoiled by the need to be stylish.


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## New Mexico Brant (Dec 31, 2021)

Fritz Katzenjammer said:


> Yup, seems about right... now I feel like a dope.
> 
> I could see where use could be limited given the fragility of old wood rims.
> 
> I wonder if the overly tall frames seen on some of these things is a throwback to the ordinary, where size mattered and bigger was better/faster or more stylish. It wouldn’t be the first time a useful item was spoiled by the need to be stylish.



It was a good question.

Also to further clarify when vocalizing the term people say each letter: "t o c" NOT: "tock" as in tick-tock.  Another term used is "wood rim era."

Some of the period rims can be ridden with care but there are modern solutions that most people go with.  With a rare, important bike many people will have two wheel sets if they want to ride.  The original set is preserved and not ridden, and the modern set is put on to ride the bike.


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## bikebozo (Dec 31, 2021)

If you look at most of the early bikes , There is a mounting step to the left , this is used to get on and off the saddle , . It is an acquired riding process -the wheels being 28 inch, and the frame support ,  and seat height -not many can sit and reach terra-firma, on my 91 New Mail the wheels are 30 ,seat is 39 inch


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## dnc1 (Dec 31, 2021)

Fritz Katzenjammer said:


> Yup, seems about right... now I feel like a dope.
> 
> I could see where use could be limited given the fragility of old wood rims.
> 
> I wonder if the overly tall frames seen on some of these things is a throwback to the ordinary, where size mattered and bigger was better/faster or more stylish. It wouldn’t be the first time a useful item was spoiled by the need to be stylish.



The preponderance of tall frames is not really anything to do with bigger= better/faster/more stylish etc. It simply reflects the trend in the style of frame design and sizing that was popular around that period in time, from manufacturing world wide. 
It's not uncommon to find frames of 27" plus.
This page from the 'Quadrant' catalogue (Coventry,  UK) from 1901 perfectly illustrates their frame sizing in relation to rider height.....




...according to the above, I should be on a 25" frame! 
Frankly I would struggle, and nowadays I rarely ride anything bigger than a 22" frame.
 But, one must also consider how riders mounted and dismounted at that time, using a rear (typically axle-mounted) peg, in a very stylish fashion. When they flicked a leg over that saddle that was around 36" or more off of the ground they had already stepped up to a height of around 14 or 15 inches before doing so.
Seat posts were always pictured at the lowest setting.
This negated the current fashion for having low frames with a safe stand over height as people weren't having to stop/start/stop/start and plant a foot as we do in modern, urban traffic.
Fashions in frame design come and go, and you'll  quickly realise that (excluding modern materials) there really is nothing new.
(Image from V-CC library).


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## fordmike65 (Dec 31, 2021)

Luckily, being 6'4" 24" frames fit me just fine. I actually let go of a pretty cool 22" truss frame in order to pick up a 24" truss. For now I have one complete wheelset I float between three frames until I gather enough parts and $ to build a couple more using Velocity Blunts and period hubs. I can't imagine straddling a 27" frame!


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## Fritz Katzenjammer (Dec 31, 2021)

I’m doing most of my riding on a 26” framed Dutch brute with 28” wheels. Not the easiest thing to mount but it’t really nice once its rolling. I’ve got a tiny folding bicycle with 20” wheels, it tries its best to shake your teeth out... darn tiny wheels fall into every hole.


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## Waffenrad (Jan 7, 2022)

If you go back to Alexander55's post on page 2, you'll coincidentally see an another way toward a reasonably priced TOC bike.  The center bike in the photo, the blue one, is my 1899 Columbia Model 57.  My son is on it, and yes, he also rode 100 miles on this year's Mackinac Wheelmen century ride.  It has racked up at least ten century rides since I assembled it a decade ago.

I put the bike together for $300 by scrounging loose parts, mostly at bicycle swap meets.   The original matching frameset, cranks, and pedals cost me only $60 in the 2012 Copake sheep field--leftovers from a head badge collector who didn't want to go home with a frame.  It was rusty with gloppy paint but perfectly straight.  I replaced the "stolen" head badge with a slightly damaged one for $50.  The other main costs were a new Persons leather saddle ($60), a pair of rusty Raleigh DL1 28" rims to paint ($30), a pair of Chinese 28 x 1 1/2" roadster tires ($25), and some junk early Morrow brakes from which I made a working one ($25).  The remaining bits cost maybe $10 each from buckets and boxes under swap meet tables.  A woodworker friend turned the grips as a favor.

Of course, the project included a few month's spare time and some rattle cans of paint.  The color is wrong but it's pretty, and I've since added a correct stem, per the Columbia catalog.

As far as the rideability of TOC bikes, most are perfectly capable.  In their day they were ridden as seriously as any bike is now.  They roll easily with 50 psi in the tires, and most were quite light.  Their main faults, at least for American bikes, were overly high gears and poor if non-existent brakes.  The former can be changed.  Rear inch-pitch sprockets were available up to 12 teeth, and ladies' front chainwheels could be had quite small.  The latter just means adjusting to a more cautious riding style.  I find traditional clothing, a cotton shirt and wool shorts, very comfortable for long days in the saddle.

There are different solutions for riding old-school 28" wheels.  First, it's a misnomer that all TOC bikes had wood rims and single-tube tires. There were wood rims, steel rims, and combination wood rims with steel inserts.  There were single tube tires, double tubes (think sew-ups), wired tires (think modern clinchers), and true clinchers (w/o wire beads).  For new wood rims, with or without aluminum inserts, call Noah Stutzman in OH--as Alexander55 mentioned.  He makes rims for single-tubes and also for clinchers in modern sizes (700c or 28").  And of course, you can paint modern rims to resemble wood ones.  Most were originally painted and striped, not clear finished.

Regarding tall-frame TOC bikes.  You have to remember that cyclists of that era had recently come off high wheel bikes, and didn't naturally think to stand over their machines.  As someone mentioned earlier, most TOC safety bikes had mounting pegs at their rear wheels like high wheel bikes, to be mounted in the same fashion.  I ride an 1891 hard tire safety and even though its frame is low, the tight spacing between the seat and the handlebars still precludes standing over it.  I can only mount or dismount from the rear, just like a high wheel.

Paul Rubenson


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## Waffenrad (Jan 10, 2022)

I forgot to mention, another way to get an affordable TOC bike is to buy an unidentified one.  There were hundreds if not thousands of makes at the height of the Bicycle Boom, and a quick look at this forum shows how many surviving bikes are unidentified.  Most collectors focus on known brands and models, so a lack of identification can bring huge savings.  Many small or rare makes were high-quality machines, and can bring as much riding satisfaction as a highly sought Orient, Victor, or Columbia.  And often, when the identity is finally known, it can be surprisingly important or desirable.

Case in point, I once bought a very early frame at a swap meet for only $20, as a curiosity to hang on the garage wall.  It was bent and rusty, and the head decal was unreadable.  But when a friend needed a bike for a Wheelmen event, I straightened it out and built it up.  In this case I had to hunt a bit further afield for early parts that would work, and to hand machine some fittings.  But the cash outlay was again only in the few hundreds of dollars.   It turned out to be a great riding bike, and got lots of looks and comments.  Years later, a similar bike turned up on an online forum and I recognized the head decal.  It turned out to be a Featherstone Road King, ca. 1893, the first American pneumatic bicycle, and the top of the line!


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