# New Member Question About An 1898 Racer



## RichardD (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm new to this site and thought I'd first ask this question.  I just got a very old bike that I think is an 1898 track racer.  The name on the head tube is Patriot.  A name lettered on the down tube is Ralph Cobb.  The manufacturer appears to be "Chicago Tube & Iron".  It has wooden rims, in pretty good shape.  I'll get some photos shortly, and post them if someone is willing to help me confirm what I have and tell me if this bike has some collectible value.
Thanks for any clues you may provide.


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## barracuda (Feb 21, 2016)

Ralph Cobb was a century road race organizer and rider known around the Indianapolis/Auburn area in the mid to late 1890s. Chicago Tube & Iron began manufacturing in 1914. Let's see those pictures!

And welcome.


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## RichardD (Feb 22, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback.  So it sounds like the bike may be from the early 1900's?
What's the best image size to upload?  I'll get some photo online today.


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## barracuda (Feb 22, 2016)

RichardD said:


> What's the best image size to upload?




The bigger the better! And the more the merrier!


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## rocketman (Feb 22, 2016)

welcome aboard, lot of brains here for your needs.....


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## CrazyDave (Feb 22, 2016)

Valuable for sure, lets see those pics!


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## bricycle (Feb 22, 2016)

rocketman said:


> welcome aboard, lot of brains here for your needs.....



...Brains...need brains!!!!:eek::eek:


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## catfish (Feb 22, 2016)

Welcome to the CABE!


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## RichardD (Feb 22, 2016)

barracuda said:


> The bigger the better! And the more the merrier!



Here are some pics.  This bike has been hanging on a wall, in a home, for the past 30 + years.
I think the following info is correct.  I'm guessing on the "year".
This is a early 1900's racing bike, named "The Pirate", (on the head tube).
Built by "Chicago Tube & Iron Co."
"Ralph Cobb" name is lettered on the down tube.
The serial number appears to be "C2174".
Looks to me like original patina on all parts


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## barracuda (Feb 22, 2016)

Wow, beautiful condition! And that badge decal, cool. Plus, a racing provenance.

I'd say a year of about 1896 - 1898 on that bike.


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## barracuda (Feb 22, 2016)

....


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## RichardD (Feb 22, 2016)

barracuda said:


> Wow, beautiful condition! And that badge decal, cool. Plus, a racing provenance.
> 
> I'd say a year of about 1896 - 1898 on that bike. Haven't seen any information on Patriot bicycles later than that.
> 
> ...



My initial posting of the name on the head tube is incorrect.  Sorry.
After more careful examination, under some strong lighting, the name appears to be "The Pirate".
At least that's what I and the wife think at this time.
I did correct this name with the posting of the photos.

Any record of such a name?


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## RichardD (Feb 22, 2016)

RichardD said:


> I'm new to this site and thought I'd first ask this question.  I just got a very old bike that I think is an 1898 track racer.  The name on the head tube is Patriot.  A name lettered on the down tube is Ralph Cobb.  The manufacturer appears to be "Chicago Tube & Iron".  It has wooden rims, in pretty good shape.  I'll get some photos shortly, and post them if someone is willing to help me confirm what I have and tell me if this bike has some collectible value.
> Thanks for any clues you may provide.



The name on the head tube, after some real intense examination, looks like "the Pirate".
Just wanted to correct this.


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## barracuda (Feb 22, 2016)

Well, that's a differnt story - The Pirate Bicycle was manufactured in Pittsburg, PA. Same general age, though.


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## barracuda (Feb 22, 2016)

Duquesne Manufacturing of Pittsburg made The Pirate from around 1896 through the mid 1920s.

1896:


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## barracuda (Feb 22, 2016)

Apparently Mr. Cobb wasn't the most successful racing promoter of his day...

August, 1894:








September, 1894 - Cobb's Caprice:






June 1895:



 

July, 1895:





Still, good stuff, and a great bike!


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## redline1968 (Feb 22, 2016)

Nice. If it's for sale let me know.


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## bricycle (Feb 23, 2016)

Love the tube decals/filigree


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## RichardD (Feb 23, 2016)

barracuda said:


> Apparently Mr. Cobb wasn't the most successful racing promoter of his day...
> 
> August, 1894:
> 
> ...




Love those stories.  Thanks.

Regarding my effort to ID the bike;
I'm pretty sure the name on the top of the head tube is "the Pirate".
The lettering at the base of the head tube is some variation of either:
"CHICAGO TUBE CO." or "CHICAGO IRON CO."
With the word "CHICAGO" located below.

I've decided to contact the current Chicago Tube & Iron Co., to see if they know anything about this.
They just celebrated their 100 year anniversary in 2014.
It's starting to become fun to solve this mystery.


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## barracuda (Feb 23, 2016)

Found it!

National Rural and Family Magazine, April 13, 1899:


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## corbettclassics (Feb 23, 2016)

Thumbs up for Barracuda!!!!  It's nice to see that other people take time out of
their day to help research bikes for other people.


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## RichardD (Feb 23, 2016)

barracuda said:


> Found it!
> 
> National Rural and Family Magazine, April 13, 1899:
> 
> View attachment 288640




Wow!!!!

Fantastic.  You are one bottomless resource on bicycle history.
Either you have a massive collection of data, or one "hell of a" search tool.
Either way, thanks for this.

The wheels appear to have been refinished, or replaced, not sure which.
Anyway I might be able to tell if they're the originals?


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## barracuda (Feb 23, 2016)

RichardD said:


> Either you have a massive collection of data, or one "hell of a" search tool.




Well, I kinda got lucky. But once I started seeing information on Mr. Cobb, I had to know more. I mean, lotsa people have bikes that _might have_ belonged to so-and-so, but here you are, with a bicycle upon whose very saddle sat the ass of "THE" Ralph Cobb, who for a scant few years before the turn of the century was apparently renown and notorious as the scourge of local wheelmen and acerbic sports-writers alike throughout the mid- and upper environs of The Hoosier State. Good color from the bicycle heartland, for sure.


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## barracuda (Feb 23, 2016)

RichardD said:


> The wheels appear to have been refinished, or replaced, not sure which.
> Anyway I might be able to tell if they're the originals?




You could check the hubs against the specs in the ad on the previous page, but even that kind of documentation is not ironclad. The rims themselves are unspecified generics, so if yours are of the correct general era they should be fine. 

I wouldn't touch a thing. Someone held that bicycle very dear, clearly.


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## filmonger (Feb 24, 2016)

Terribly Interesting and very cool bike!


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## RichardD (Feb 24, 2016)

barracuda said:


> Found it!
> 
> National Rural and Family Magazine, April 13, 1899:
> 
> View attachment 288640




Definitely looks like the bike.  Chicago Tube Co. name in that ad pretty much confirms what I can decipher on the faded lettering at the base of the head tube.  Got a return call today from someone at the present day company "Chicago Tube & Iron Co.  We'll see if there's any connection to the old company.
Should I leave everything on this "untouched"?  So far all I've done is use a damp paper towel to wipe areas where lettering, or art work appears.  Getting it damp has increased the contrast for images and lettering.


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## dave429 (Feb 25, 2016)

Fantastic! Love reading about the history. Leave the bike as is, be very careful with any cleaning so as not to rub away any of the details in the paint. Great find!


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## pelletman (Feb 25, 2016)

Clean it up with Waxoyl and 0000 steel wool or the Scotch Brite equivalent.  Be careful not to rub the decals off!  Maybe use a old tshirt in those areas


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## pelletman (Feb 25, 2016)

and a small brass wire brush...


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## barracuda (Feb 25, 2016)

Personally I would not TOUCH that bike with an abrasive any coarser than a very soft cloth with some WD40 on it. From all appearances, it is an exceedingly clean, well cared for example. Don't use anything on it that you wouldn't mind using on the finish of your new car.

It's not supposed to look new, or even clean. Just leave that old girl alone.


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## bikebozo (Feb 25, 2016)

not a racing bike , more of a scorcher style set up, 


this is major Taylor on his racing machine , you still have a very cool historical bicycle and should be a proud owner


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## RichardD (Feb 29, 2016)

Well ........
I'm still working on contacting the Chicago Tube & Iron Company.
I went to a local bike swap meet this past Sunday, in West Bend, WI.
Someone there observed that the chainring in my photo didn't look like the one in that vintage ad that "barracuda" found.
Maybe my model is from a different year.  Just wondering.
Someone else also said that if I ever sell it, the buyer might part it out.  Does that happen sometimes?


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## barracuda (Feb 29, 2016)

RichardD said:


> I went to a local bike swap meet this past Sunday, in West Bend, WI.
> Someone there observed that the chainring in my photo didn't look like the one in that vintage ad that "barracuda" found.
> Maybe my model is from a different year.




I am certain that the bike you are holding is not the exact bicycle in the picture of the Pirate advertisement. It would be asking a bit much to find that. Your bicycle is certainly a Chicago Tube Co. "Pirate" of the same general era and type. Personally, I would place your bike as slightly older than 1899. Possibly. Very hard for me to say without significantly more documentation, which may or may not ever be forthcoming. Small manufacturer, in production for a fairly short time, apparently. Maybe there's a catalog out there somewhere. A guy can dream, I suppose.

And you know what? Having taken such an interest in your most interesting ride, I should tell you that I'm not really an expert on bikes of this era, to be perfectly honest. Or just about any bikes of any era, to be even more honest. Though maybe I'm being altogether too honest. Someone else should chime in.



RichardD said:


> Someone else also said that if I ever sell it, the buyer might part it out.  Does that happen sometimes?




Oh yes! Sometimes it does happen! Terrible thing, that. 

However in this case it would be somewhat unusual. Perhaps. Not really much point in taking apart and selling the pieces of a bike like that one. Particularly if you were to put just the right price on it - you know, just low enough to tempt the hoarders but too high to make parting uneconomical. There are a variety of collectors on this very site more interested in preservation than profit, to be sure. And you do seem to have an interested purchaser right here on this thread, I believe - Mr. redline1968. He strikes me as anything but a parter-outer, if I may vouch for someone I don't really know at all.

But now that you mention it, those nicely blued pedal cages do catch one's eye, don't they? Hmmm.


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## barracuda (Feb 29, 2016)

Also, might I ask: would you mind posting pictures of the filigree or decals that are on the seat mast tube? I'd love to see what they look like.


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## RichardD (Mar 3, 2016)

barracuda said:


> Also, might I ask: would you mind posting pictures of the filigree or decals that are on the seat mast tube? I'd love to see what they look like.




I shot a few more detail photos.  Here they are.


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## Iverider (Mar 17, 2016)

WOW! And from the articles dug up, you KNOW it hasn't been ridden much (by Cobb at least)


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## carlitos60 (Mar 21, 2016)

Nice  Racer!!!!
I Still Think They Should Have a Thread for TOC Racers Only!!


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## RichardD (Jan 4, 2017)

Anybody still checking this thread?  I'm finally going to have to sell the "Pirate", listed here.
Not sure where to start with this process, but, to cover medical expenses, we need the most we can get for it.  I'd really like to take it out to that east coast auction, the Copake Auction, but can't wait that long. I'm probably going to put it up on Ebay, unless anyone has a better idea.  Thanks for any suggestions.


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## fordmike65 (Jan 5, 2017)

RichardD said:


> Anybody still checking this thread?  I'm finally going to have to sell the "Pirate", listed here.
> Not sure where to start with this process, but, to cover medical expenses, we need the most we can get for it.  I'd really like to take it out to that east coast auction, the Copake Auction, but can't wait that long. I'm probably going to put it up on Ebay, unless anyone has a better idea.  Thanks for any suggestions.



@redline1968


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## bikebozo (Jan 5, 2017)

Not a racing bike , they do not offer a racing example , and the bikes shown in the ads are priced on the low end , It is very nice , and will make some one a happy camper...., Copake is not a guarantee of big money, I have received a lot , and also lost a lot , .. on ebay ,it will be offered all over the world , also someone might , see it listed and know about this piece , .. I think it was in a bicycle show , and represented Cobb --  Craig Morrow at Bicycle Heaven should know about it , ..  His store and museum is in Pittsburgh- put a price on it and see what happens , do not get offended by any thing ,this is a strange market right now , and I predict for a long time coming ..  You might get offered a trade , and then sell what is offered to you . Bikes similar to yours show up all the time/with that fancy paint ..  Check out the past Copake Catalogs and you can realize a price for yours , . Put it on Ebay with a buy it now , and best offer-, you will find out fast , the value someone is willing to pay ..  Tires for these bikes , are expensive , even tires from days gone by (original) ,,   good luck with your transaction , be careful with the exchange of any money or goods , control and protect your self and sale ..  My view on the value would be near 750.00,,+shipping , ..  I just drove 2,143 miles 1 way to pick up a bike I wanted ...It was fun stopping in Mexico , for a treat .


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## RichardD (Jan 5, 2017)

bikebozo said:


> Not a racing bike , they do not offer a racing example , and the bikes shown in the ads are priced on the low end , It is very nice , and will make some one a happy camper...., Copake is not a guarantee of big money, I have received a lot , and also lost a lot , .. on ebay ,it will be offered all over the world , also someone might , see it listed and know about this piece , .. I think it was in a bicycle show , and represented Cobb --  Craig Morrow at Bicycle Heaven should know about it , ..  His store and museum is in Pittsburgh- put a price on it and see what happens , do not get offended by any thing ,this is a strange market right now , and I predict for a long time coming ..  You might get offered a trade , and then sell what is offered to you . Bikes similar to yours show up all the time/with that fancy paint ..  Check out the past Copake Catalogs and you can realize a price for yours , . Put it on Ebay with a buy it now , and best offer-, you will find out fast , the value someone is willing to pay ..  Tires for these bikes , are expensive , even tires from days gone by (original) ,,   good luck with your transaction , be careful with the exchange of any money or goods , control and protect your self and sale ..  My view on the value would be near 750.00,,+shipping , ..  I just drove 2,143 miles 1 way to pick up a bike I wanted ...It was fun stopping in Mexico , for a treat .
> View attachment 405012




I understand what you're saying.  That Copake Auction appears to be able to go any direction.
A local guy who owns a bike shop goes to it each year, I think to primarily just look.
I've used Ebay a number of times for other kinds of sales, with no real issues, so I'll probably use it for this.


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## redline1968 (Jan 6, 2017)

Oh...that hits my soft spot.. I love it...I'll be watching for it. Or leave an idea on price via private message.


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## bikewhorder (Jan 6, 2017)

barracuda said:


> Apparently Mr. Cobb wasn't the most successful racing promoter of his day...
> 
> August, 1894:
> 
> ...



How do you find this stuff!?!?! I wish I could have been there to witness these failed rides, sounds like a good time!


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## RichardD (Jan 7, 2017)

redline1968 said:


> Oh...that hits my soft spot.. I love it...I'll be watching for it. Or leave an idea on price via private message.


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