# Pope....Ideal and Standard Bicycles Bought in a Bundle of Bikes today....



## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

I bought some bikes from a guy today and I know nothing about some of them...and a little about others....and others I know about.  I got a Simmons Autocycle....?  A couple Elgins and others....but I am posting some pics of bikes I know nothing about.  Any help with these bikes would be appreciated!  I know they are old.....but what else is there to know????  I am all about details and these bikes got them....

Any help would be appreciated....


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## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

*First Bike*

Pope Manufacturing....???


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## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

*First bike Cont.*

First Bike...Pope Manufacturing....


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## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

*Second Bike*

Ideal Bicycle....


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## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

*More Second Bike....*

Ideal Bicycle more...


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## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

*Third Bicycle....*

Unknown Bicycle...no tag...


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## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

*Third Bicycle...*

Unknown...?????????


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## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

*Fourth Bike....*

Standard Bicycle....


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## rustyspoke66 (Oct 13, 2012)

Great score, the first bike looks like a G & J Gormully & Jeffery, Chicago IL, 1898. The only reason I say this is I have a basket case that has the exact same lug work.


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## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

rustyspoke66 said:


> Great score, the first bike looks like a G & J Gormully & Jeffery, Chicago IL, 1898. The only reason I say this is I have a basket case that has the exact same lug work.




Thanks rustyspoke66.  The lugging on the first bike is incredible. The only marking on the entire bike is Pope Manufacturing.  I sure wish it had the headbadge.....


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## bike (Oct 13, 2012)

*the rake and gearing etc*



miller32 said:


> Unknown...?????????




suggest a "Trick" bicycle


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## Gary Mc (Oct 13, 2012)

miller32 said:


> Thanks rustyspoke66.  The lugging on the first bike is incredible. The only marking on the entire bike is Pope Manufacturing.  I sure wish it had the headbadge.....




I think it's probably just a little later, G&J sold their bicycles to American Bicycle Company in 1900 with Pope ending up in control in 1904 so if you see Pope on it, it is probably a circa 1904 Rambler (formerly G&J bike).  Here's a 1900 Rambler with that chainring as well.  That rear ND Duplex Corbin hub is also circa 1905ish I believe.


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## s1b (Oct 13, 2012)

Wow, amazing find. Look forward to hearing more about these!


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## miller32 (Oct 13, 2012)

Gary Mc said:


> I think it's probably just a little later, G&J sold their bicycles to American Bicycle Company in 1900 with Pope ending up in control in 1904 so if you see Pope on it, it is probably a circa 1904 Rambler (formerly G&J bike).  Here's a 1900 Rambler with that chainring as well.  That rear ND Duplex Corbin hub is also circa 1905ish I believe.
> 
> View attachment 69485




Thanks for the info Gary....much appreciated!  I suppose finding a badge for this thing is going to be tough!!!


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## Larmo63 (Oct 13, 2012)

Gary Mc is right. That timetable seems to all fit quite well. These are

all incredibly interesting machines. The gold and black one looks to be 

a circus, stage/trick, or Vaudeville bike.


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## rustyspoke66 (Oct 13, 2012)

Gary Mc said:


> I think it's probably just a little later, G&J sold their bicycles to American Bicycle Company in 1900 with Pope ending up in control in 1904 so if you see Pope on it, it is probably a circa 1904 Rambler (formerly G&J bike).  Here's a 1900 Rambler with that chainring as well.  That rear ND Duplex Corbin hub is also circa 1905ish I believe.
> 
> View attachment 69485




That makes perfect sense.


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## pelletman (Oct 14, 2012)

miller32 said:


> Pope Manufacturing....???




No Gormully & Jeffrey about 1899 -1900 I think


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## pelletman (Oct 14, 2012)

miller32 said:


> Unknown Bicycle...no tag...




Trick bike, probably custom built


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## pelletman (Oct 14, 2012)

If it says Pope it is G & J made by American Bicycle Company after the big Pope Merger I think.  They created a big bicycle trust and most of the majors were part of it I think,  It fell apart rather quickly..


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## miller32 (Oct 14, 2012)

I stayed up late trying to find information about these bikes.  One thing I came across was this....
http://copakeauction.auctionflex.co...782&archive=y&lso=pricedesc&pagenum=1&lang=En

The second bikes has many of the same features.  Only tagged with Ideal.


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## miller32 (Oct 14, 2012)

The third bike has really got me.  It appears to me not to be made up...but an actual bike???  The man that I got it from said he thought it had a Crescent badge on it at one time...there is two holes to where that badge would have been....but with no badge....that would be just guessing.  It has the same type of lugging throughout and I found a picture of a shaft driven bike....the bike in the picture below has the same frame shape....

The forks on my unknown bike are straight.....


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## miller32 (Oct 14, 2012)

*Simmons Autocycle*

I got a frame, badge, sprocket and handlebars and broken wooden rims that is a Simmons Autocycle also and a few other interesting bikes are also in the group.  I am wondering if it is Schwinn or not?  It has a sweetheart spocket...but that could have very easily been replaced at some point.  I will post pics of it later today.....


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## okozzy (Oct 14, 2012)

*Close*

The rear dropout is completely different?


miller32 said:


> I stayed up late trying to find information about these bikes.  One thing I came across was this....
> http://copakeauction.auctionflex.co...782&archive=y&lso=pricedesc&pagenum=1&lang=En
> 
> The second bikes has many of the same features.  Only tagged with Ideal.


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## dave the wave (Oct 14, 2012)

miller32 said:


> Pope Manufacturing....???




that bike is a Rambler.


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## bricycle (Oct 14, 2012)

miller32 said:


> The third bike has really got me.  It appears to me not to be made up...but an actual bike???  The man that I got it from said he thought it had a Crescent badge on it at one time...there is two holes to where that badge would have been....but with no badge....that would be just guessing.  It has the same type of lugging throughout and I found a picture of a shaft driven bike....the bike in the picture below has the same frame shape....
> 
> The forks on my unknown bike are straight.....




A lot of bikes had frames that shape tho in early-mid '90's tho... I too have one that shape, but then again...no stink'n badge!


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## miller32 (Oct 15, 2012)

*Juvenile Antique Bicycle*

Looking to find out what this Juvenile Antique Bicycle is???  This is another bike that came in the bundle....


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## bricycle (Oct 15, 2012)

Looks like a Hawthorne. 1920's


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## miller32 (Oct 15, 2012)

*Simmons Autocycle....*

And this bike...


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## miller32 (Oct 15, 2012)

Does anyone know about the Simmons Autocycle? Thanks


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## miller32 (Oct 15, 2012)

bricycle said:


> Looks like a Hawthorne. 1920's




Thanks Bri


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## dave the wave (Oct 18, 2012)

*here is my rambler*

here ya go.


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## miller32 (Oct 18, 2012)

dave the wave said:


> here ya go.




Beautiful bike Dave!  The more I am around these bikes...the more I like the older ones....

Thanks for sharing...


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## Gary Mc (Oct 19, 2012)

miller32 said:


> Beautiful bike Dave!  The more I am around these bikes...the more I like the older ones....
> 
> Thanks for sharing...




That happened to me as well.  There is a grace & beauty in these "older ones" without the need for masses of sheet metal.


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## s1b (Oct 19, 2012)

Well said! Also the bike come from a time when they were an important mode of transportation just like a car and horse.



Gary Mc said:


> That happened to me as well.  There is a grace & beauty in these "older ones" without the need for masses of sheet metal.


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## scrubbinrims (Oct 19, 2012)

Gary Mc said:


> That happened to me as well.  There is a grace & beauty in these "older ones" without the need for masses of sheet metal.




Nice finds miller32, no question.

Gary Mc, masses of sheet metal?
You mean like that used in balloon tire tank bicycles, which were less utilitarian and pushed the envelope in design?

These "older ones" have lines that are but a few degrees of separation from the sears free spirit 10-speed I had growing up in the 80's.
No thanks...I'll stick with creativity.

Chris


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## s1b (Oct 19, 2012)

scrubbinrims said:


> Nice finds miller32, no question.
> 
> Gary Mc, masses of sheet metal?
> You mean like that used in balloon tire tank bicycles, which were less utilitarian and pushed the envelope in design?
> ...




I like both, but I love history and personaly feel there is more in the earlier bicycle.
I like the balloon bikes also, with the history of the great designers.......


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## Gary Mc (Oct 19, 2012)

scrubbinrims said:


> Nice finds miller32, no question.
> 
> Gary Mc, masses of sheet metal?
> You mean like that used in balloon tire tank bicycles, which were less utilitarian and pushed the envelope in design?
> ...




Chris,

I was not trying to blast or take a cheap shot at the balloon tankers and the creativity of design used particularly in the 1934-1942 timeframe.  I love them too and many also have a grace & beauty to them as well such as the great Colsons, Huffmans, Shelbys, RoadMasters, Elgins, Westfields, etc again particularly during the streamline era.  Many of them are true works of art & creativity in my opinion pushing the envelope as you say, so I agree with you.

What I could have said better is that since I have gotten into this hobby (a relatively short time frame BTW) I *personally* have become more & more drawn to the styling of bikes from roughly 1895 to 1933.  In this period the styling was in the frame designs, the striping and paint techniques used, the details in many individual components such as hubs and chainrings, the details of many of the head badges in many of these bikes.  When you look closely at some of the hubs for instance they are true works of art in themselves and the same can be said of many of the chainrings from this era but you really have to look at the details.  They relied on other things rather than sheet metal designs with increasingly larger tanks & fenders as design cues.  They relied on significant attention to detail and craftsmanship of components and sometimes frame design.  And then combined there is a grace & beauty there and yes a utilitarianism at the same time.  When you look carefully at those components, what you call "a few degrees of separation from the sears free spirit 10-speed", there is a beauty to many of them in just attention to detail of small items.  I agree some of these were or appeared to be plain jane utilitarian bikes but many of them are much much more when you look a little deeper.  

I am glad not everyone likes them and glad we all have different tastes, it's what makes this hobby unique in many ways.  Probably dug a deeper hole here but in short, I like them all and appreciate the design & creativity of multiple eras but I *personally* find a grace, beauty, & elegance to the bikes of 1895-1933 and they are more appealing to me and glad everyone does not feel the same way.

Gary


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## Larmo63 (Oct 19, 2012)

Did someone just call my Racycle a Free Spirit 10 speed?

I see beauty in beautiful things. Not all of the old bikes were
stylish, as not all motorbikes were stylish, as not all ballooners
were stylish. I wouldn't have been caught dead on a Free Spirit 
POS 10 speed in the eighties. 

I would rather have walked.


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## bikewhorder (Oct 20, 2012)

scrubbinrims said:


> These "older ones" have lines that are but a few degrees of separation from the sears free spirit 10-speed I had growing up in the 80's.
> No thanks...I'll stick with creativity.
> 
> Chris




I gotta say that's a pretty inflammatory comment Chris, I know your passionate about those early ballooners but there's no need to get defensive about it, slamming their predecessors is totally unnecessary.  I love the variety of the early balloon tired bikes and that's where my collecting has been focused lately, but if I were to have to choose one that I had to ride any distance, there's no question I'd take an early double diamond framed bike.  Those bike with all those masses of sheet metal were an evolutionary dead end, all form-no function.  As a designer myself I'd argue that they represent a major setback in the notion of bicycles as a viable form of transportation.  But they are fun to collect


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## pelletman (Oct 20, 2012)

They should have quit "improving" the bike in 1888!  Big wheels rule!


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## vw00794 (Oct 22, 2012)

Larmo63 said:


> Did someone just call my Racycle a Free Spirit 10 speed?
> 
> I see beauty in beautiful things. Not all of the old bikes were
> stylish, as not all motorbikes were stylish, as not all ballooners
> ...




Hmmm, I seem to remember the nick name  Racycle "lowly roadster"


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