# Is this a TOC or teens bike? I can't tell!



## JoeBass (Jul 1, 2021)

Found a local seller with this bike, but I'm just not expert enough to tell an age on it. He's had it repainted, and there's no head badge or decals. The rear dropouts look like they may date to me, but has anyone seen front fork dropouts like this on a TOC bike? Can anyone give me an approximate date or identification? Thanks much in advance! Joe


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## JoeBass (Jul 1, 2021)

A little more information. Apparently the bike originally had decals identifying it as a "Hercules Speed King".


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## Kato (Jul 1, 2021)

Yes, no............maybe so ???

https://societyofthreespeeds.wordpress.com/2015/03/13/1951-hercules-king-3-speed/


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## JoeBass (Jul 1, 2021)

It looks like the Hercules Cycle and Motor Company was founded in 1910, in 1935 was exporting forty percent of all bikes to leave England, and by 1939 had manufactured its six-millionth bike. For such a prolific company, it seems odd I can find almost nothing about it other than the Wiki entry.





						Hercules Cycle and Motor Company - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Edit: And this, the Hercules Museum page! Still nothing in any of the 1930's brochures about the Speed King model. It original wheels do have wood rims, so maybe earlier than 1930?








						Hercules Cycle & Motor Co Museum
					

A Hercules Bicycle - 'The Finest Bicycle Built Today'




					herculesmuseum.wordpress.com


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## Schwinny (Jul 1, 2021)

English Frame, Pre war, late 30's- early 40's. Walton and brown frame Lugs of the 30's, My Armstrong has the same ones, if it weighs about 7lbs bare like that it is probably a Reynolds lightweight tubing frame, making it at least early 30's. The fork is the same as on my 30's Armstrong but with different tips and no reflector bung. 
It doesn't look like it has the lower head bearings, is it one of those double race/cone style, or are there cups pressed in the top and bottom of the head? Double cone is two on top and two on bottom, one of which sits in a flare of the head lugs. There doesn't seem to be one on the bottom.

I've been staring at a lot of these same years English bikes lately trying to pin down the date of mine. I got mine as a 31' but more likely a 38'. Mine is the same frame but I have different braze ons.
Any stampings on the seat post lug, under BB or LR dropout?
My dropouts are similar but not the same. After removing a lot of paint I found the stampings there on the LR


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## JoeBass (Jul 2, 2021)

Schwinny said:


> English Frame, Pre war, late 30's- early 40's. Walton and brown frame Lugs of the 30's, My Armstrong has the same ones, if it weighs about 7lbs bare like that it is probably a Reynolds lightweight tubing frame, making it at least early 30's. The fork is the same as on my 30's Armstrong but with different tips and no reflector bung.
> It doesn't look like it has the lower head bearings, is it one of those double race/cone style, or are there cups pressed in the top and bottom of the head? Double cone is two on top and two on bottom, one of which sits in a flare of the head lugs. There doesn't seem to be one on the bottom.
> 
> I've been staring at a lot of these same years English bikes lately trying to pin down the date of mine. I got mine as a 31' but more likely a 38'. Mine is the same frame but I have different braze ons.
> ...



Thanks much for the info! I haven’t had the chance to examine it in person yet, but hopefully I’ll be able to see more in person than I can in the photos. He says he has the rest of the original parts, including wood rimmed wheels, so should be more clues there.


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## Schwinny (Jul 2, 2021)

Im going to say 30's bike but the lugs and other stuff could have been used earlier I guess.
If you look in the International bike section My bike is a thread Headed "Picked up this old Armstrong Today"
I see by the wikipedia entry that Hercules did not use Reynolds tubing and that they made all their own parts by the mid 20's if we can take all of that as true. Those are definitely Walton & Brown Lugs so.... more fuzz

The paint job on that frame looks pretty nice. Im in the middle of restoring mine.


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## JoeBass (Jul 2, 2021)

Schwinny said:


> Im going to say 30's bike but the lugs and other stuff could have been used earlier I guess.
> If you look in the International bike section My bike is a thread Headed "Picked up this old Armstrong Today"
> I see by the wikipedia entry that Hercules did not use Reynolds tubing and that they made all their own parts by the mid 20's if we can take all of that as true. Those are definitely Walton & Brown Lugs so.... more fuzz
> 
> The paint job on that frame looks pretty nice. Im in the middle of restoring mine.



Wow, cool Armstrong! If this other bike hadn’t already been repainted, I would’ve just left it in its original state. I actually prefer the look of the unrestored bikes, as long as I can get them to the point that they’re rideable.


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## dnc1 (Jul 2, 2021)

The paintwork is very nice but distinctly unoriginal, and not at all traditional for an English frameset.
I too think it could date from anytime between the 30's to the 50's. Hercules are impossible to date (there is no logic to their numbering systems) unless you have an original bill of sale/shop receipt.
The rear dropouts are pretty distinctive as you say, I'll ask some guys I'm riding with on Sunday if they recognise them. They do make the frame look nearer to the 30's end of the range.

It will be interesting to see the wheels .
I very much doubt if the wooden rims are original to the bike (unless it's pre 1900) most British manufacturers used steel rims from quite early on.
Wooden sprint rims were pretty popular in the 30's and 40's though, with clubman racers and on the track.
Typically these would be for tubular tyres and not clinchers,  often with aftermarket hubs, but not exclusively so.

This may seem a little negative,  but that's definitely not my intention.  It's a great looking frame and would certainly make a great rider built up with period lightweight parts.


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## JoeBass (Jul 2, 2021)

Nope, not negative at all. I'm happy to get any information I can. Found another version of the Hercules Speed King floating around on the web. Fork is different, but everything else looks similar. I've been looking at the Hercules catalog from 1930, and you're correct, all the rims are steel by then, and nothing about this particular model. Strange that both the original bike posted and the one I'll link here have the wood rims, but I'm guessing it's just like you specified above, and they were added aftermarket to drop some weight.


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## Schwinny (Jul 2, 2021)

Very cool decals on the seat tube. The wax stamp red one is similar to the "British Steel" decal used by Armstrong But the top one is fantastic. 
I just looked on the H.Lloyd site and they don't have one of those decals. Not much for Hercules at all.


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## dnc1 (Jul 2, 2021)

JoeBass said:


> Nope, not negative at all. I'm happy to get any information I can. Found another version of the Hercules Speed King floating around on the web. Fork is different, but everything else looks similar. I've been looking at the Hercules catalog from 1930, and you're correct, all the rims are steel by then, and nothing about this particular model. Strange that both the original bike posted and the one I'll link here have the wood rims, but I'm guessing it's just like you specified above, and they were added aftermarket to drop some weight.
> 
> View attachment 1439680
> 
> ...



I see that this other example has a  similar style of painting  a and I'm now wondering if this style was just for the USA export market.
The 'Speed King' as a model name doesn't exist in the UK catalogues and unfortunately there don't seem to be any export catalogues in the V-CC library. 
Perhaps the wood rims were available on USA models? If yours has similar hubs to the second example it may be worth a little more research.


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## JoeBass (Jul 2, 2021)

More fuzz and mystery!


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