# Ralieghs



## the tinker (Oct 6, 2021)

How do I date a Raliegh? It has a Sturmney Archer 3 speed on it. Is there a date code on the hub? Where are the serial numbers? I spotted this bike in a thrift store this morning for 50 bucks. Super clean. I'll take a photo of it tomorrow, unless I come to my senses. Never liked English bikes, but this bike is so darn clean. Great looking green paint. I'm thinking it's1970's, maybe 80's Where are they made? Please. . . .not China????.  Thanks.


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## guzziworksman (Oct 6, 2021)

The date is typically on the rear hub, stated as a single number to the right of something like, "AW" or such. A picture would speak volumes. I'd say more - but there are much more qualified people on here, to give you exacting advice. Where are you located? I'd be glad to buy a green Raleigh and save you all the frustration.


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## GTs58 (Oct 6, 2021)

Here you go tinker. 






						Raleigh Serial Numbers & Charts
					






					www.kurtkaminer.com


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## bthoff (Oct 7, 2021)

guzziworksman said:


> The date is typically on the rear hub, stated as a single number to the right of something like, "AW" or such. A picture would speak volumes. I'd say more - but there are much more qualified people on here, to give you exacting advice. Where are you located? I'd be glad to buy a green Raleigh and save you all the frustration.



Exactly this - with an asterisk on Sturmey hubs from the 1930s. They got weird that decade. And of course this assumes the wheel and bike have been together since birth. Usually the case.


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## the tinker (Oct 7, 2021)

I  moved the bike out and took a couple photos of it today and looked it over really good. I don't think it was ridden that much, but it doesn't look like an original saddle, but I could be wrong. Front rim has rusty spots on one section[ shown] where it obviously sat in a garage. Back rim has some rust spots, but should clean up. Chain guard has minor some paint scrapes, like something was pushed up against it, probably more garage damage, but it's not bad. Small ding on top of front fender. I estimated that it's a 1970's bike. I think I'm right, as the rear hub has a 74 stamped into it.  1974? 


guzziworksman said:


> The date is typically on the rear hub, stated as a single number to the right of something like, "AW" or such. A picture would speak volumes. I'd say more - but there are much more qualified people on here, to give you exacting advice. Where are you located? I'd be glad to buy a green Raleigh and save you all the frustration.



It's still there.  I think I'll pass and stick with my American Schwinns. It's at the St. Vincent DePaul thrift shop. in West Chicago, Ill.   Don't confuse this with "Chicago," it's no where near it. It's about 35-40 miles west. Price is 50 bucks. I think it's worth it to a 3 speed kind of guy.


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## bthoff (Oct 7, 2021)

Yup - it's a 74. By coincidence I have one in my work stand right now, but in brown, and it matches up. The original saddle on that bike would have been a Brooks B72. I wouldn't be surprised if the person selling the bike helped himself to the saddle and slapped that Magna nonsense on it hoping nobody would notice. 

The intact R-nuts on the crankset suggest nobody has ever serviced the bottom bracket. The steel rims will clean up. They look par for the course. Might want to read up on the self-adjusting brake levers -- I hear they can be temperamental as they age and potentially not worth the trouble with their brittle plastic bits. A Raleigh innovation that didn't really stick. Overall looks like a solid rider once it's cleaned up. Worth $50. Too bad about the wrong saddle though.


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## SirMike1983 (Oct 7, 2021)

It's a standard mens' frame 1974 Sports. If it's an original Raleigh bell, that is worth pretty good money. The most valuable part today is the Brooks saddle, which is gone. There's certainly $50 in parts there if the bike does not suit. I usually try to save and hold onto the wheelsets because I have a soft spot for the Westrick rims. Many guys replace them with CR-18 aluminum rims, but I like the old stuff. At $50, I'd probably buy it just to have the spares around.


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## jimbo53 (Oct 7, 2021)

Now, for just $225 more you could get SirMike 1983’s beautiful 30’s-40’s Phillips Roadster that is a great collectible prewar British bike already sorted out by one of the CABE’s foremost authorities on Brit bikes.Cheers!








						Sold - 1930s-40s Birmingham Phillips Roadster | Archive (sold)
					

For sale is a 1930s-40s era Birmingham Phillips rod brake roadster.  This is a true, Birmingham-era Phillips, not a later Raleigh. I rebuilt this old bike and went over everything in 2018. Since then, I have not put many miles on it, and it has only been ridden in nice weather. I've periodically...




					thecabe.com


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## kostnerave (Oct 7, 2021)

the tinker said:


> I  moved the bike out and took a couple photos of it today and looked it over really good. I don't think it was ridden that much, but it doesn't look like an original saddle, but I could be wrong. Front rim has rusty spots on one section[ shown] where it obviously sat in a garage. Back rim has some rust spots, but should clean up. Chain guard has minor some paint scrapes, like something was pushed up against it, probably more garage damage, but it's not bad. Small ding on top of front fender. I estimated that it's a 1970's bike. I think I'm right, as the rear hub has a 74 stamped into it.  1974?
> 
> It's still there.  I think I'll pass and stick with my American Schwinns. It's at the St. Vincent DePaul thrift shop. in West Chicago, Ill.   Don't confuse this with "Chicago," it's no where near it. It's about 35-40 miles west. Price is 50 bucks. I think it's worth it to a 3 speed kind of guy.View attachment 1491847
> 
> View attachment 1491848



Tinker, If the bell is a Raleigh or "King Of The Road", it's worth more than 50.00!


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## the tinker (Oct 7, 2021)

Just got home and read the replies. Thanks for the great info. I'd like to know what happened to the original saddle. I guess I could go back and ask. I go to this resale shop every so often looking for old belts. I do leather-work and seek out old, obsolete buckles for belts I make. I find some really nice heavy ones, that cost me $ 2-4 each. I pay for the belt, but the older buckles are what I'm after. They always buff out like new.  I know nothing about these English bikes. Back in 1963  I sold my original Phantom that Dad bought in 1952. I think I got $4 for it. There was an old black 3 speed English racer at a local bike shop for $8.   All the older kids wanted to ditch their balloners. Nobody wanted them. The Schwinn Stingrays were coming out, but all the guys I knew wanted a "racer." As soon as I sold the Phantom, I  had enough money to buy the black racer.  Whatta hunk of junk it turned out to be. Everything was wrong with it, and I learned a tough lesson about "Metric" There was a kid on the next block that was a couple years older than me, and was a bully.
He was always pushing me around, but when he found out I had a "racer," and wanted to get rid of it, he came over knocking at my back door, nice as pie. He gladly paid me the $8 for the bike. I stayed clear of that kid for the next couple years, as I had taken the bike apart, lost the metric nuts and used standard nuts on the wheels. Plus, it was permanently stuck in third. Payback's a bitch.
Anyway, long story, longer, there was another older kid down the block that got drafted into the army. Under his parent's back porch he had a bunch of old 26" balloners that his dad told him to get rid of before he left. I think there was 9 of them. Me and another kid worked out a deal to buy all of them for $18.  2 bucks each. I ended up with 4 old heavy weights. An old blue Hornet with a springer, a  J C Higgins, a Rolllfast, and the one that became my favorite, a pre-war Ranger. That was my first Ranger. I still have two nice ones, hanging from the ceiling of my small shop, 60 years later. 







The boy that went into the army went to Nam. His name was Howard. He got wounded. Who would have ever thought, that 6 years later, I'd be getting my notice and I 'd be going to the same stinken place. Ironically, and I just thought of this now, before I left, my dad asked me to get rid of all the old bikes I had stashed in the garage. This was 1969 and nobody wanted the old ballooners, even for free. I carried them out to the curb for the trashman. End of story, other than life is short my friends. Enjoy the ride.


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## SirMike1983 (Oct 7, 2021)

I'll leave some notes here about my time dealing with English bikes and coming across people getting into the hobby or into English bikes. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I figured here is as good a place as any to leave some notes in case someone new to English bikes is thinking about what to get, or coming across stuff in thrift stores, etc.

The *best* ones to start with if you want to work on them are the *post-war Raleigh Sports with AW hubs*. A Sports or sports-family bike (Robin Hood, Rudge, Humber - all fine) from the 1950s or 60s or 70s (or early 80s even) will work fine here. There are plenty of parts around still. Thousands and thousands of the basic post-war Sports type bikes came to the US. If you're taller than 5ft 8in, the *23 inch frame* usually is the better fit than the 21, but some people like the 21. Fasteners are usually proprietary on the Raleigh family bikes, but the exact spares are plentiful still, and usually not all that expensive. I'm not fooling about the 23 inch frame size. It's a godsend to have the 23 inch frame on 26 inch wheels for most adult male riders. Thrift stores sometimes are OK sources, but be very careful that it hasn't been in a bad wreck, everything is straight, all vital parts are there, etc. The leather saddle should not be overlooked - should not have tears, should be in proper shape and not all flat or distorted, etc. Budget $100+ for a new, good leather saddle if you don't have one already.

If you have to have a pre-war English bike, and you're not ready to dive in fully and import parts, then it's best to get one that has been gone over already, and preferably not heavily modified. I say this because I've encountered a pretty fair number of people who absolutely "must have" a 1930s rod brake roadster as their first English bike, but in the US, that's a more advanced project. Almost all projects of that age today need at least some new parts, and it may very well involve importing parts from England. These aren't going to be the sort of thing where you can go to the hardware store or just jump on eBay and find what you need in one-sitting. It often means canvassing English parts suppliers and getting it shipped over the Atlantic. If you're really, really lucky, someone like Rogers Motors/Albion Wheels, or Funthingsfound will have it. 

But for a lot of this 1930s-40s rod brake roadster stuff, you're looking at international shipping if something is broken. If you're new to old bikes or just old British bikes, don't punish yourself by getting a wrecked 1932 Hercules with a Model K hub, and then try to fix it, unless you really want to jump in with both feet, import parts, and deal with 90 year old, obsolete stuff. This is for the person who is more advanced and ready to really deal with the inherent issues. If you're mechanically inclined, patient, and accepting of what the project will require, by all means go for it.

The other thing is that the first English bike project for someone should use a regular Sturmey AW hub. They're not especially hard to work on, parts are usually available, and they're reasonably reliable. Bearing tolerances are generous and need not be perfect for it to run well. Another mistake I see new people make is they hear about some old, esoteric Sturmey hub and they "must have" a bike with one. Some of these more obscure hubs were unpopular for a reason - they have design flaws. Some hubs tear up inside the shell, some crack at the shell flanges, some the pawl/dogs won't seat properly, some stop working well in cold weather, some have brakes that treat stopping as a mere suggestion, etc. And with some, the parts are very expensive.

I'll probably post this to my blog as well, because it's worth saying. But I come across so many people who have to have a "WWII bike" or a pre-war roadster, or an obscure 1920s small-label brand bike as their first, and it's just begging for frustration unless you're totally accepting of how challenging these older bikes can be.


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## bthoff (Oct 7, 2021)

SirMike1983 said:


> I'll leave some notes here about my time dealing with English bikes and coming across people getting into the hobby or into English bikes. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I figured here is as good a place as any to leave some notes in case someone new to English bikes is thinking about what to get, or coming across stuff in thrift stores, etc.
> 
> The *best* ones to start with if you want to work on them are the *post-war Raleigh Sports with AW hubs*. A Sports or sports-family bike (Robin Hood, Rudge, Humber - all fine) from the 1950s or 60s or 70s (or early 80s even) will work fine here. There are plenty of parts around still. Thousands and thousands of the basic post-war Sports type bikes came to the US. If you're taller than 5ft 8in, the *23 inch frame* usually is the better fit than the 21, but some people like the 21. Fasteners are usually proprietary on the Raleigh family bikes, but the exact spares are plentiful still, and usually not all that expensive. I'm not fooling about the 23 inch frame size. It's a godsend to have the 23 inch frame on 26 inch wheels for most adult male riders. Thrift stores sometimes are OK sources, but be very careful that it hasn't been in a bad wreck, everything is straight, all vital parts are there, etc. The leather saddle should not be overlooked - should not have tears, should be in proper shape and not all flat or distorted, etc. Budget $100+ for a new, good leather saddle if you don't have one already.
> 
> ...



I broke into the hobby exactly as you suggest. Great thing about postwar Raleigh Sports and similar is the cheapest way to get parts is just to buy another used one. At least here in New England, they are plentiful and cheap, ranging from free to $100, especially the ladies frames. Buy a good cotter pin press though. Worth every penny.


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## Rufus (Oct 10, 2021)

SirMike,   Thanks for the pre-war and post war info on Raleigh bikes.  I am looking at a brown Raleigh Sports that appears in good shape cosmetically but the mechanical condition is not known yet.  Seller is asking $150.00 or best offer.  What is your opinion of this?  Pix attached,


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## bthoff (Oct 10, 2021)

Rufus said:


> SirMike,   Thanks for the pre-war and post war info on Raleigh bikes.  I am looking at a brown Raleigh Sports that appears in good shape cosmetically but the mechanical condition is not known yet.  Seller is asking $150.00 or best offer.  What is your opinion of this?  Pix attached,
> 
> View attachment 1493287



My 2 cents that you didn't ask for...

I wouldn't offer more than half that sight unseen. It does look cosmetically above average from the one photo other than the missing grip. A brown mid-70s Sports isn't a rare bird though. A lot of the intrinsic value for me would be in the B72 saddle, which looks from the one angle to be potentially quite nice. Those eBay for around $75 on their own. I would strip and  overhaul any bike like this no matter what before placing it into service, so I would only care about mechanical issues I couldn't fix or that are really annoying like wonky wheels and busted spokes and bent tubes. Good luck.


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## jimbo53 (Oct 10, 2021)

Rufus said:


> SirMike,   Thanks for the pre-war and post war info on Raleigh bikes.  I am looking at a brown Raleigh Sports that appears in good shape cosmetically but the mechanical condition is not known yet.  Seller is asking $150.00 or best offer.  What is your opinion of this?  Pix attached,
> 
> View attachment 1493287



Another plus is the frame pump which you hardly ever see on these bikes. Another negative is that wonky non-original shifter and cable. These usually come with Sturmey Archer trigger shifters and top tube outer cable anchor. The inner cable will run open to a pulley at the top of the seat tube to the indicator chain. If this is your first Brit bike, BEWARE: all bearings are loose and go EVERYWHERE if you’re not very careful. These taller frame 23” frames aren’t as plentiful as the more common 21” bike, so that’s another plus. Bottom line, these British roadster bikes are relatively cheap, easy to work on, offer a ride quality that no ballooners or middleweight can touch, and they’re like Lay’s potato chips; you won’t just want one!


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## Rufus (Oct 10, 2021)

jimbo53 said:


> Another plus is the frame pump which you hardly ever see on these bikes. Another negative is that wonky non-original shifter and cable. These usually come with Sturmey Archer trigger shifters and top tube outer cable anchor. The inner cable will run open to a pulley at the top of the seat tube to the indicator chain. If this is your first Brit bike, BEWARE: all bearings are loose and go EVERYWHERE if you’re not very careful. These taller frame 23” frames aren’t as plentiful as the more common 21” bike, so that’s another plus. Bottom line, these British roadster bikes are relatively cheap, easy to work on, offer a ride quality that no ballooners or middleweight can touch, and they’re like Lay’s potato chips; you won’t just want one!



Thanks for your input jim bo .  I am going to visit the seller Monday pm.  If I get it at my offer I will replace that shifter first.  Never owned a Brit bike but do have a Dutch Union bike from the early 1980's.  Also review YT videos on rebuilds and repairs.  Recently totally disassembled a Shimano 333  3speed ,  cleaned and lubricated all the internal works.  Very easy to do thanks to RJ the BikeGuy on YouTube.  Again thank you from Larry in Morehead City,  NC'


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## bleedingfingers (Oct 10, 2021)

Rufus I don't know when anybody last bought a B-72 in decent condition off ebay but I check there often as I have been looking for one
and price at auction is usually well over $100 with shipping closer to $150.00 or more  and they don't make them anymore .
Seat comes with a free bike  take it apart re grease it put some tires on it and ride it for a hundred years .


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## SirMike1983 (Oct 10, 2021)

You'll have to take a close look at that bike. It looks like a late 60s or early 70s era bike, but it has 1973 and later self-adjusting brakes. It's possible retro-fitting has been done on this bike. Self-adjusting brakes are 1973 and later, but the decals are a little earlier.  My view is the price is at the high end of the scale, and that is assuming you have nothing else wrong besides what is obvious from the photo.The shifter and related cable, fulcrum, and pulley set up seem to have been replaced and will have to be set back to normal.  It's also missing a grip.

Take a close look at the saddle when you see the bike. You won't be able to use a saddle with breaks around the rivets, or severe distortion, etc. Frame and fork look relatively straight, but look them over just the same. Also look for any deep dings or gouges in the pipes on the frame.  Looks like the original pump. Missing a grip.  Hard to tell what the deal with the chain is. It looks like it might be a replacement or else rusty? Brake pads look like maybe some kind of long, road bike type KoolStop? You may want to investigate those. Check the brake functioning - cables, self-adjusting housings, etc. If all of this stuff, except the obvious stuff pointed out is good, then the price seems fair to me, though at the top end of what is fair.

On the other hand, if there are further problems than just what is obvious from the picture - e.g., saddle is bad, brakes need replacing, wheels damaged, etc., then you're over market at that price. Try talking the price down a bit with the issues you see. Don't low ball, but do see if you can come to a fair compromise if you see issues.

These are great bikes, and the tall frame is a big plus, but remember you're paying on top of the bike price to fix issues that come up. The saddle in particular can be a deal-breaker. Budget $100+ for a new leather saddle or good used one if the one with the bike is done.


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## eeapo (Oct 25, 2021)

Amazing story, I enjoyed reading about all the bikes you had as a kid. I too had some of those bikes and as I got older I also some nice cars and pick up’s If only we could back in time and bring them back too present date.


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