# Show your Davis built bicycles



## dave the wave

here are a couple of mine.Yale and Nonparreil.


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## dave the wave

*the serial num.*

on the bottom of the crank hanger.


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## dave the wave

*NonPareil bicycle*

built by Davis Sewing Mach.Co.


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## dave the wave

*NonPareil bicycle*

a few more.


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## bricycle

Very nice indeed...


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## redline1968

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''';;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''


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## redline1968

a few more pics(sorry no pic)


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## redline1968

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## redline1968

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''========================---------------------------=====================


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## slick

I need a front fender for mine. Can you offer me one for my stocking? No, really. I need one!


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## redline1968

=================================--------------------------------------===========================


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## iraricky

*fenders*

hello; good pictures, for sale the fenders?????   thank you.


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## redline1968

==============================---------------------------------------===============================


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## SimpleMan

The frame with the drop out facing back is a Davis (sold it) the front one sitting side ways is also a Davis (sold to Slick) next one back is a Racycle (sold) and the 3rd is a '36 Huffman built pop bottle head badge Dayton (keeper)






Somebodys motorbike project.......built on a Davis frame. Stripped and sold for parts. Frame was destroyed but it had a perfect Davis "Dayton" headbadge.









One I just got...this ones a keeper.


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## slick

I had to take a doubletake before I saw who posted up the picture of my Davis in that first photo with the lonely rear fender behind it. Thanks Simpleman! I still need a front fender for it if somebody has one. Please let me know. I'd like to make this a rider before next summer hopefully. I have what I believe is an Indian chainring and I think I have the Davis fork for it now. Unless it's an Iver Johnson fork? I'll try and get some photos up tomorrow of my pile of parts that are coming together.


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## kunzog

1915 DAYTON MOTORBIKE


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## zephyrblau

per a response to my posting on another page, looks like this belongs here. is there a way to date my bike ? any feedback on appropriate chain rings or head badges appreciated.


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## thehugheseum

*datonia*

heres an old davis bike in this mess


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## chitown

*Dayton Motor Bikes*


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## chitown

*1920 Dayton Ad*


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## bud poe

*Nice advert's, thanks for posting, here's my latest Davis built acquisition....*


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## chitown

Nice ride Bud! With great original paint and nickel. Love those Cali Bars too... would love to see those flipped around racer style!


General question to Davis folks:

Why don't any of the Davis built/badged bikes share any of the features of the Harley bikes they supposedly built. Drop-outs, forks, fork crown, rear stays, lugs etc??? Or is there something I'm missing here?

Thanks, 

Chris


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## bud poe

*Thanks!
This frame is lugged and has "HD" looking chain adjusters...Not sure though about the other issues.  I suppose HD could've had some pretty specific designs that they wanted their bicycles to have to set them apart from the rest?
I do have another Davis built Victor that is not lugged but of the same era so I was kind of wondering the same thing....*


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## thehugheseum

bud poe said:


> *Thanks!
> This frame is lugged and has "HD" looking chain adjusters...Not sure though about the other issues.  I suppose HD could've had some pretty specific designs that they wanted their bicycles to have to set them apart from the rest?
> I do have another Davis built Victor that is not lugged but of the same era so I was kind of wondering the same thing....*




yeah yeah,great bike,super paint bah blah....................how about an 1890s bike already..............get some wood....wood!


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## hoofhearted

bud poe and many others ... some specifics regarding the biggest differences between the Dayton Motorbike Frame 
AND the DAVIS Motorbike Frame are addressed in these pics.  The DAVIS was purchased by this writer .. after a hot 
tip from Dave The Wave ... thank you, again, Dave !!!

.........  patric cafaro


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## hoofhearted

bud poe .. chitown .. and many others .. The H-D rides were based on the DAVIS formula for fabrication.  DAYTON bicycles 
had DAYTON-ONLY features ... with the exception to the 1918 model year, when some DAVIS bicycles had a single lug (like 
the Dayton) at the top of the seat mast AND Dayton SLEEVED ADJUSTERS at the drop-out plates.

..........  patric


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## chitown

Patric,

Thanks for the illustrations. So Davis had multiple fork, drops/chain adjusters and frame building process' at a time when most of the plant (60%) on war efforts? Besides the fact that the bicycle department was trying to fill the government orders for the Columbia Standard military model bicycle. To me that Harley you've got looks more Mead than anything else.








Not to mention the fact that the plant was set to close down in 1917 for "considerable new machinery" for making tractor parts:




Then there is this article taken from the Davis Daily News, Oct 9th 1932:

Then along about 1914 the automobile sprang into widespread popularity, and the bicycle was forced to give ground.  Following closely on the heels of this new vehicle’s appearance came the World War, and while no one in Dayton realized it at the time, it really sounded the death knell of this famous old industrial plant.

At the command of the government, the Davis halted its production of bicycles and sewing machines and converted a large part of its machinery into the manufacture of munitions.  Again the payroll boomed, but it was not the solid, substantial prosperity that had attended its peace-time years.  Munitions were provided to meet the government’s demands.  But each day that the machinery was on that work it was growing farther away from the time when it could again be utilized for producing the things for which it was originally intended.  The regular business of the company suffered.  The electric sewing machine came in and was marketed by several competitors at a time when, through force of circumstances, the Davis was unable to meet and cope with such competition.  The cry was for munitions and more munitions.  The world was being made safe for democracy—but at the cost of the Davis reputation and markets.

Source: http://www.daytonhistorybooks.com/davisdayton.html


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## chitown

So Harley may have had a contract to fill bikes with Davis Sewing Machine co, but when the war broke out and Davis was pushed into defense contracts, is when they may have struck up relations with Mead to take up part of the contract to fill those orders. We know there was a relationship with George Lewis and Horace Huffman when they formed the Dayton Rolled Metal co, in 1925 but there is little evidence of their relationship before that "merger".

WWI had companies pledging unity and support for the government. I think this is a key time in bike manufacturing. In the late teens, there was a movement to "standardize" the bicycle manufacturing process under one government run department. Horace Huffman was one who thought "standardizing" the bicycle would benefit the industry.

James Mead was not on board with this philosophy... mainly I guess because he already had a thriving company with several patents on manufacturing techniques.

Davis had some patents too, just not ones that were practical:







In 1916 they were still designing the lug/fishmouth joints:







In 1919 here was their fork manufacturing design:


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## hoofhearted

CHRIS (chitown) ... your ability to bring up documents related to what we are discussing is remarkable.
You have great ability in the research arena !!  Good stuff.   i do need a clarification, tho.  What HD do i 
have that looks more like a Mead than anything else ?

....... patric


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## redline1968

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


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## redline1968

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## hoofhearted

CHRIS (chitown) ... after re-reading your most-recent post .. i have concluded that you do not believe that Davis 
was making all those fork and frame variations, at a time when Davis was swimming in government contracts to 
fabricate munitions to support the war effort (WWI).     i find it difficult to believe, also.  

LONG AGO i realized that our own reality is formed by our perceptions.  For the longest time i refused to buy into 
those Sailing Rocks or Moving Rocks of Death Valley.  Now, i really believe that these rocks move .. thru no assis-
tance of human involvement.  i also believe that Jesus is the Son of God.  Don't ax me how is it that i believe in 
the reality of these things ... i JUST DO.

ANYHOW, CHRIS ... i am attaching some pics that serve as information.  Am not trying to force anyone to believe 
in anything.  If i were to engage in that behavior .. it would be an uphill struggle for me.  An individual's thoughts, 
beliefs and perceptions are just that ... they belong to the individual possessing them.  If i have any power at all, 
it is in the realm of influence, not thought control.

AM ATTACHING a bunch of fotos .. some of which the reader may believe are reflective of real, physical objects ... 
others may be dismissed as hogwash.

...........  patric

post script ... if any repetition occurs in the management of attachments ... the reader can be assured that i have 
no control over this feature .. only influence.


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## hoofhearted

BEND OVER,  here comes another one .........


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## hoofhearted

OKAY .. OKAY ... THIS DAVIS STUFF KEEPS presenting itself to me.  Several weeks ago, a seller parted a Chief
Bicycle ... here is the fork ... Heavy-Duty variety ... has thicker truss-rod supports than the standard duty.
This writer did not win the fork.

IN ADDITION ... the fork blades and truss-rods terminate at a triangulated plate, in the lower area of the fork.
Very sano !!! 

THIS FORK INTERCHANGES with all Davis standard-duty forks ... on all DAVIS rides from 1915 thru 1922 ...
except the Dayton.


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## hoofhearted

Just one more Davis, heavy-duty fork pic ............


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## hoofhearted

Can't leave this one out ..........


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## bud poe

*Patric, What year would you place my Dayton bicycle pictured earlier in this thread?  Do the forks look like standard Davis/Dayton equipment to you?  I can post closer pics as well as serial # tomorrow...Thanks in advance for any info...*


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## hoofhearted

BUD POE ... this is for you ... see attachments ....... AND ...... Both Bottom-Bracket Illustrations Are Correct ...... 
either one would apply.  Now, i do not know what Model Year YOUR PARTICULAR DAYTON is ... but .. you can flip 
it upside-down .. scrape some paint if necessary .. and post the pic on this thread.  Your Dayton will be documented 
thru-out eternity.

.........  patric


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## hoofhearted

BUD POE ..... Here it is in reality ..... 

.......  patric


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## chitown

hoofhearted said:


> CHRIS (chitown) ... after re-reading your most-recent post .. i have concluded that you do not believe that Davis
> was making all those fork and frame variations, at a time when Davis was swimming in government contracts to
> fabricate munitions to support the war effort (WWI).     i find it difficult to believe, also.




I wouldn't go so far as me not believing... just having a difficult time believing. Especially since Davis was coming up short on the government orders for bikes. "Sorry Uncle Sam, the troops will have to do without the bikes you ordered, we are busy building bikes to be marketed to Boy Scouts and kids in general... General."...or something along those lines.









That heavy duty fork of the 1918 Harley looks similar to the 1915-16 Ranger.



 View attachment 66782


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## hoofhearted

CHRIS (chitown) ... you are right !!! ... those two forks DO look similar.  It's difficult for me to understand if 
the Mead truss fork has loose truss-rod bottoms, or if the truss-rod bottoms are attached to a plate like that 
1918 H-D.  On a Davis ... the Standard-Duty Truss Fork has truss-supports roughly one-eighth-inch thick, and 
the truss-rods terminate ON TOP OF THE FORK BLADES ... just above the drop-out crush.  On the Davis Heavy-
Duty Truss Fork, the truss-supports are roughly one quarter-inch thick ... and ... the truss-rods terminate at 
the top of a triangulated plate .. shared with the bottom of the fork blades.

CHRIS ... with all of the documentation you presented .. it is very difficult for me to believe that Davis continued 
to make bicycles .. under many badges .. including H-D .. in preparation for the war AND during the war.  But, 
Davis apparently did just that.  JEEZ-LOO-EEZE ... it must have been a mad-house at that plant during that time.

IN ADDITION ... that Heavy-Duty FORK 1918 H-D pic is attached to the rest of a 1918 RESTORED H-D Bicycle 
... the restoration orchestrated by SCOTT McCASKEY.  SCOTT reports that he no longer owns the bicycle.

CHRIS ... what i really enjoy about these old bicycles is the labyrinth of information surrounding them.  You have a 
very, very good source of historical information and i am glad you are sharing it with the readers.  This quality of 
information would have rarely been shared ten years ago.  A person might fone another, asking ... "Say, what is the 
thickness of the truss-supports on a Davis heavy-duty fork ?" ... the response might be, "Well ... would'nt YOU like 
to know ??!!"

Thank you for sharing .. CHRIS !!!!

                                                                                                                          ...............  patric

post scipt for BUD POE ... when i get some decent, close-up pics (from several different points of view) of a Dayton Fork 
(truss and non-truss) .. i will post it on this thread.


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## Flat Tire

Would like to thank everyone for reviving this thread and sharing info! I've been lucky to pick up a few Davis bikes lately, one I was having some trouble figuring out the front fork, mostly because of the curved truss rods, but found some pics similar and now think it must be the heavy duty?.......truss supports are 1/4" thick....


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## Flat Tire

More pics,


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## bud poe

Flat Tire said:


> More pics,



*
To make things more convoluted, I've seen those curved truss rods on Pierce motobikes (I have posted here in the past, will link thread) but I suppose someone could've swapped 'em at some point or maybe they were a Davis option...

I also just want to thank patric and chitown and others for sharing all their knowledge and research on the subject.  I was thinking the same thing, years ago 99% of us would have been in the dark....

patric, so in your bottom bracket illustration, do we read that as a 1913 frame?  I only see one digit for the "year of manufacture" and one for the "model year", are we to ad these together and conclude that it is a 1913 bike?  Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your illustrations (which are VERY helpful, by the way)....*


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## bud poe

*Pierce motobike thread for fork comparison, they actually look quite different...*
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?14510-Pierce-(-)-motobike


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## hoofhearted

Flat Tire ...those illustrations show a 1917 Model Year .. manufactured in 1916 ... only the final number 
of the dat is stamped.  TOTALLY LOVE YOUR DAVIS MOTORBIKE with those dual truss-rod tops .. it's 
got to be 1915 or earlier ... PLEASE SHOW US SOME PICS OF THE BOTTOM BRACKET ... THE NUMBERS 
.... i gots to know ... WOW-WEE-WOW-WOW ... been in this stuff since 1982 ... not a lot that excites me 
... nbut thjt DSAFIS YOU HABE REALKY EXCIYTES ME !!! .... Hoky Crap ... cvan't evten type agfter ppeepin'
that bnicycle !!!!!!!!!!!!!

MORE PICRTURES PPLEASE !!!!!!!

.........THJANKS AGFAIN ............... patchcreek


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## hoofhearted

Flat Tire .....


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## hoofhearted

The davis bicycle appeals to many .....


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## Flat Tire

Patric,  first of all those Yunt boys are scary lookin, but theyre prolly hoardin a bunch of Dayton bicycles somewhere....and not for sale........and I got a feelin you may not realize I'm yer neighbor, at least once a month I drive by a sign that says 'Fairborn'...wherever that is! Think early Dayton bike tags, from some dude in a van at a MLC meet.....by the way I need one back....hohoho.......
Anyway heres the bottom bracket, besides the serial number I only see 1 other stamping, which looks like a big  1 .....it surely couldnt be a 1911????


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## bud poe

hoofhearted said:


> The davis bicycle appeals to many .....View attachment 66966



This is hilarious!


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## hoofhearted

Flat Tire ... have bought so many, many badges from folks in vans at Memory Lane Classics ... you can contact me .....

          >>> hoofhearted121@yahoo.com <<<

Look ... some Davis rides have been observed without any numbers at all ... some with ONLY the serial numbers ... the earliest 
Davis motorbike i have seen is in a motorcycle / bicycle magazine dated April 14, 1914.  Don't know what that large "1" is about.
That motorbike was a Dayton. 

ATTACHED IS THE DAVIS Motorbike that has the Year of Manufacture "6"  and the Model Year "7".

..............  patric




THIS FRAME / FORK ASSEMBLY is my favorite Davis Motorbike ....... the motorbikes that really move me are the ones that 
have a real raked-out angle ti the haed=tbue ,,, aw CARP ...,,...... my tpying is strattin' to go haywrie .. nornally i don;t get 
all njacked outta shap ... but i peep juts one koool ride and my wohle wrold goze shizz axe.   Outta hear for know ,,,,,,,,,,


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## hoofhearted

ONE O' THESE DAYS ... gonna know how to post a pic so that it shows big on this page ... not the little 
postage stamp that has to be leaned on ... then it explodes to the size of something that can be seen.


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## chitown

hoofhearted said:


> ... it must have been a mad-house at that plant during that time.




Which plant though?

View attachment 67077

I think Lyman Gould's job was in charge of receiving cases of HD sprockets that were forged at the Davis plant, then make sure they were put on last years Mead's frames and shipped off to Milwaukee crated and ready for the jobbers and final assembly.





Patric,

Thanks for the thanks. The history is what I too find most fascinating. But I blame you for these thoughts of Mead frames being sold to Harley. That article that you posted on the Dayton Rolled Metal Co was what sent me down this Mead/Davis connection. I keep going back to the forks and the dropouts of the Harley's (teen Sears bikes also) that have patented construction... Mead Patents.

The recent Harley Owners Mag article I believe, mentioned parts were sent from the Davis Plant to be assembled in Milwaukee. I didn't read the article so can't confirm that, but that is what lead me to believe that the forging Dept at Davis was more capable than Mead in producing the familiar HD sprocket. Mead had made the move to import the 1/2" drivetrains from England and no longer had the forging dept it had before 1916. It was becoming and transforming into a modern manufacturing plant with much of the tool and die and forgings being done off site of the main plant.

Chris


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## ejlwheels

*which year/model would this be?*

Here is one I am working on...
I am guessing it is a model 162 from 1916?
But why the 9 above?  Or is it an upside down 6?








I think this has the "Dayton" fork with the 1/8" strut.


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## bud poe

bud poe said:


> *Nice advert's, thanks for posting, here's my latest Davis built acquisition....*



*An added pic of the stampings on the Bottom Bracket....Not sure what to make of it though...*


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## hoofhearted

HEY TO CHRIS ... all that lit about Davis building bicycles, sewing machines and munitions, AND playing 
Beat The Clock, put me into a thought that says, Wow .. whatta Mad-House.  Images of workers elbow 
to elbow dance in my noggin ... but the dancin' is far from pretty.  The number of workers in that plant,
at the time, is enormous.  The building, enlarged many times, (as per the articles) must have been a 
haven for the "let's get er done, in a quality manner" crowd.

AM NOT SOLD on the possibility of a serious connection between Lewis and Huffman. Sr.  Am not sure what 
was applicable on the Lewis Fork patent.  Was it the three-plate crown ... was it the manner of attaching the 
steer tube or, the fork blades ??  The one thing that differs in the Lewis fork and the Davis fork is the manner 
of attachment of the front fender.  

THE LEWIS FORK APPEARS to have a sleeve, with a metal bottom placed into the lowest part of the steer tube.  
The metal bottom has a tiny hole drilled into the center of that bottom.  i do not know if the tiny hole was 
threaded ... but if guessing is still legal here, my guess is that the hole was threaded.  WHA LAH ... a manner 
to attach the fender via a retaining-screw, placed into an a preordained hole in the fender, then continuing 
occupancy in the little, threaded hole in the lowest part of the steer tube.  

EVERY DAVIS FORK that i have seen DOES NOT have this feature.  The teens-era Davis fork has an eighth-inch 
(about) steel rod inserted into a pair of opposing-holes in the vicinity of the steer tube diameter .. about a half-
inch from the bottom, and well-within the surrounding, three-plate crown.  A little, threaded-at-the-bottom hook 
was placed over that rod .. its threaded-end hanging below the base of the steer tube .. the fender installed .. 
and the whole package buttoned up with the application of a corresponding washer and nut. This design made 
the fork less-costly to produce, had weight-savings benefits BUT WAS A BEAR to fool with if all of the other bicycle 
parts were present.  

WITH THE DAVIS FENDER HANGER,  a bicyclist needed to remove the handlebar stem .. insert a three-quarter-
inch dowel rod into the steer tube .. 'til the dowel rod bottomed out on the threaded hook.  The removal of the 
fender was often a breeze ... but the re-attachment of the fender .. is rarely straightforward .. as the application 
of the retaining nut and washer, from below the fender, wants to raise that hook off its perch.  NO BIG DEAL ??!

ONCE THE BICYCLIST takes ownership of his/her Davis ride .. one day  choosing to remove the front fender .. well ...
let's just say they had better have all the tools necessary to remove the stem and bars AND a dowel rod to shove 
down the throat of the fork ... or that fender IS NOT going back on as easily as it came off.

RIGHT NOW, i would really like to use some Fowl Language.

LOOK ... PRESENTLY i AM still hacked from having to remove and replace a Davis front fender ... and have NO 
OPINION on what Lyman Gould's job was regarding H-D sprockets .. putting them on last-year's Mead frames, 
and shipping them off to Milwaukee.  DAMMIT !!

......... patric

post script ... i will be okay.


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## hoofhearted

ejlwheels ... thank you for those really great pics of your Davis YALE Motorbike frame and fork.

AM SAYING YALE ... only if that residual, blue paint is original to the parts.  The Dayton was offered 
in Black or in Carmine paint.  The Yale was offered in a brilliant blue ... same as on your parts.  

AT SOME TIME OR ANOTHER .. the Yale was offered in other colors ... not necessarily stated in the 
Yale catalogues .. but showing up in a random fashion.  The Yale Badge was attached with a "pop-
bottle cap" device ... not screws.  Does your frame have a one-half-inch hole placed into the center 
of the head-tube ??

IF THAT HOLE IS not present ... and you see screwholes ... the frame was never a Yale.  Generally- 
speaking,  the Dayton and the Yale Shared frame designs ... occasionally the Yale would have Dayton 
truss fork (like yours in the pic) ... but sometimes the Yale could have a Davis Truss Fork ... Standard 
Duty OR Heavy Duty.

THE THREE-DIGIT NUMBER STAMPING is a mystery to me.  And ... if a "9" were stamped where the model 
year would be ... well .. i have seen a "6" stamped lightly then a "9" Bogarted right over the "6". 

YOUR FRAME has a clear and distinctly-stamped "9".  This shows your frame to be a 1919 Model Year.

THAT FRAME / FORK PACKAGE IS VERY STOUT !!!

..........  patric


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## hoofhearted

bud poe ... your Dayton does not have a Model-Year Numerical Stamping.  It does have, 
however, an extra set of three digits ... don't know what that means.  Many Dayton rides 
sport that single "D" in the area of the serial numbers.  The Dayton Fork did not come as 
Heavy-Duty or Standard-Duty ... just Non-Truss (like yours) and Truss (like ejlwheels).

Nice Dayton !!!

...........patric


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## ejlwheels

The bike came with a bottle cap Dayton badge and the frame has the hole (although the badge was held on with glue, as the bottle cap flanges have mostly broken off).  It was spray painted blue, with a possible gray primer, and beneath all that I have found possible specs of carmine or red oxide primer?  At any rate, I am planning to repaint it and build it as a carmine red 1919 Dayton.


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## redline1968

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,..........................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Flat Tire

Heres the short article about HD bicycles in the Harley Owners Club (HOG) magazine..........and that HD pictured has to be the coolest I've ever seen!


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## bud poe

hoofhearted said:


> bud poe ... your Dayton does not have a Model-Year Numerical Stamping.  It does have,
> however, an extra set of three digits ... don't know what that means.  Many Dayton rides
> sport that single "D" in the area of the serial numbers.  The Dayton Fork did not come as
> Heavy-Duty or Standard-Duty ... just Non-Truss (like yours) and Truss (like ejlwheels).
> 
> Nice Dayton !!!
> 
> ...........patric



*
Thanks patric for the info, so we can be sure my frame was produced after 1917 based on the "pinch", correct?  Do we have a range of years, say from 1917-1922 for example?*


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## hoofhearted

bud poe ... that nugget of information regarding the '17 and forward Dayton bicycles having the 
pinched-in, upper seat stay area was gleaned from an AMERICAN MOTORCYCLIST AND BICYCLIST 
REVIEW or whatever the magazine was called in it's run from the very early 20th century.  The 
magazine had at least five name changes in it's run and, for at least fifty years, was published 
twice a month. 

IN ONE OF THE LATE 1916 or 1917 ISSUES ... an article .. 'new to the bicycling world' or 'changes 
and additions from the manufacturers' .. or similar ... the pinched-in, Dayton upper stays are illus-
trated, but no mention of the benefit is made.  All other company bicycle frames are unaffected.  
i do not have access to that article. The same article also indicates the reality of the H-D chainring.  

YOU ARE CORRECT in the period of application of this design, bud poe, 1917 thru 1922 ... and a 
bunch of bicycles going out the door in early 1923.  Th latest ads this writer has observed were in 
fall of 1922 .. "Get on the Davis Bandwagon for 1923 !!" ... every Davis badge was listed in the ad 
.. including HD ... not fully indicated as Harley-Davidson .. just HD.  In addition, a new badge was 
listed .. DAVIS .. it's a heavy copper stamping .. bottle cap attachment .. and looks like the seat-
mast decal on the ompany's bicycle products.  Both SCOTT McCASKEY and i have one of these 
badges. To me, this badge represents the last gasp of a company before sinking below the waves.


......... patric


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## chitown

*1917 Dayton ad*


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## hoofhearted

...........


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## hoofhearted

OKAY ... chitown ... Flat Tire ... bud poe ... redline 1968 ... ejlwheels and all you other Harley-Davidson Bicycle Junkies ... let's peep some goods.

........  patric


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## Gary Mc

1917 Dayton ad showing Flat Tire's curved truss rods:


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## dave the wave

*more H-D bikes*



here ya go.


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## hoofhearted

More dayton stuff ..........


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## redline1968

-----------------------------;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;===============''''''''''''''''---------------------------


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## hoofhearted

More stuff .......


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## hoofhearted

Gonna try bigger on the three Dayton badges


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## dfa242

hoofhearted said:


> BEND OVER,  here comes another one .........View attachment 66785




I've been away for 10 days and just found the recent additions to this fascinating thread - I really appreciate all the great info about Davis built bikes.  I've attached some more pics of the '18 Napoleon and will be happy to provide anything else to inform the discussion.

Cheers,
Dean


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## dfa242

Here's another Dayton badge for reference -


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## hoofhearted

DEAN ... my appologies for putting out some incorrect information ... on inspection of another one 
of your pics, i have concluded that YOUR 1918 NAPOLEON DOES HAVE DAYTON-TYPE ADJUSTERS.
Sorry for any disturbance in the force.

...... patric cafaro

View attachment 67432


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## dfa242

Hey Patric,
No apologies needed - any disturbances in my force have nothing at all to do with you.  
Thanks again for your guidance.
Dean


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## hoofhearted

WELL, BOYS AND GIRLS ... with all my tweakin' the apps on this attachment 'whatzit' ... i has 
corncluded that i do not know what the heck i am doin' wrongful in the attaching department 
... am no longer messin' with the attachment of those Dayton Badge pics, as my wife of 43 years 
just told me, "Holy Crap ... give it a rest, already ... are you still takin' yer medicine or do you 
need an adjustment ??! ... I think you need more medicine !!!"

WELL ... MAYBE ............ but let us consider what The Dayton Motorbike looked like AFTER Davis 
closed the door ... and Shelby bought a bunch of Davis inventory .. Oh, Yeah !!! ... we have some 
very, very rare examples of Dayton Bicycles sold by Shelby, from Flat Tire and Scott McCaskey.

BOTH MEMBERS HAVE given me permission to post pics of these rides.

THIS Red And Black DAYTON MOTORBIKE WITH THE NON-TRUSS DAYTON FORK belongs to Flat Tire.

HIS RIDE IS PRESENTED HERE ... Scott's Shelby-Built Dayton will be presented in the next thread 
that i type.

SO .. WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE ??  Typical Dayton Motorbike frame ... Dayton (and often Yale - only) 
Fork ... this speciman without truss rods ... shallow drop-side raingutter fenders .. Shelby dropstand .. 
flat Dayton chainring .. from 1912-or so, era.  Say, what's with that "24" stamped on the underside 
of the bottom bracket ??!

FLAT TIRE tells me he added the righteous saddle AND the killer, tiller bars.  GOOD CALL !!!


----------



## hoofhearted

AND NOW SOME PICS OF SCOTT McCASKEY's Post-1922 Shelby-Built Dayton Speedway Special .....

SHALLOW DROP-SIDE raingutter fenders .. early, Speedway Special badge .. D-A-Y-T-O-N chainring ..
Shelby fork with removable truss-rod sopport-plate.  What about the head-tube cups ??!!


----------



## hoofhearted

.............


----------



## Flat Tire

Small parts bag..........


----------



## Flat Tire

*Serial Number Mystery*

ejlwheels posted his frame and fork showing a serial # then  9   and 162   and says it has a Pop Bottle badge....
I also have a Dayton with the same fork, pop bottle badge and the numbers  9   and  162
So I was talking to a fellow Ohio Collector about this and he says WOW...he has a Dayton, with the same fork, and pop  bottle badge, and the numbers on his are   9   and  162  !!
The only real difference in these 3 bikes is the frame size (by the neck length)
So here ya go....
Three 1919 Dayton bikes
All 3 are stamped  162
All 3 have the same Dayton Truss Forks
All 3 have the Pop Bottle Badge...which is an extra step when making the frame,,, to make the large hole for that Pop Bottle badge....
Hummmmm???...........162......Pop Bottle Badge?  Dayton Truss fork???
Now I'm not gonna assume anything.......yet.......but I am very curious now!
and sure would like to find another Dayton with the # 162 !!!!


----------



## dave the wave

*more H-D bikes*

here ya go.


----------



## dave the wave

and here's more.


----------



## dave the wave

and here's more.


----------



## chitown

Hey Dave,

Those should be posted in the Mead thread. Well, I think we need a new thread for Mead/Davis/Harley.

Every one of those HD's is screaming MEAD built... except the sprocket. Give credit where credit is due. Davis Sewing machine stepped up and made a kick ass sprocket, but I'm saying those frames were built in Chicago.

This one looks like the badge screws would line up perfect for a Mead badge. This curved truss bar was a Mead feature... and a Pierce, and Dayton. It's more indicative of age/period than a tell tale sign of manufacturer.


----------



## hoofhearted

GREAT PICS, DAVE !!!      CHRIS (chitown) ... will you please show us some of those Mead frame-
styles that mirror the Davis frames.  You may have something here that cries to be revealed.

DAVE  ... those pics from the Eady Museum are great !!! ... and you kindly left me one to post ... 
another H-D chainring.  A note to all of you chainring persuers ... pay careful attention to all the 
variations in these original rings that have been laced thru-out this thread.  There are reproductions 
out there ... the lathe-work may be a bit shallow and the teeth not so stout .. allowing for normal 
wear and tear .. of course.





...... patric


----------



## chitown

Patric, I don't know how to tell you this other than straight up, no chaser. Your favorite Davis is a Mead.:eek:

Go back to the dropouts and the forks. George Lewis was designing those forks so as to not need heavy forging equipment. These were die-cut, stamped, pressed (pressed using hot/cold joining like he would later use in making silver kings) This style fork and dropout is used in later 20's Elgins (Sears) those were Westfield made. AFTER Mead liquidated and sold manufacturing equipment to Westfield.

The features you point out as Dayton Only are what I think Davis only did. I like Dayton bikes and think those "Dayton Only" forged fork-crowns are works of art. But I don't believe they were making the style fork I refer to as the Lewis fork.

View attachment 67632

Here's an early Mead with some early fork truss plates. (pic and bike by member bikewhorder)
View attachment 67633


----------



## sm2501

chitown said:


> Davis had some patents too, just not ones that were practical:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's mine.


----------



## chitown

*Beautiful + wild + ultra-rare = one fine Dayton*

WOW! That is wild. Here's the fork:


----------



## hoofhearted

CHRIS (chitown) ... Many things are possible .. but not as many things are probable.  It is POSSIBLE that
Mead built every ride except the Dayton .. but i don't believe it is PROBABLE.  When a person lays their
hands on the actual Davis bicycles .. it is difficult to fathom the probability or certainty that these parts
are Mead spinoffs.

i totally respect your right to believe that Davis bicycles (excluding the Dayton) were built in Chicago by
Mead .. and i will defend your right to say that very thing in this country.

BUT ... others, including myself, believe otherwise.  And, that's okay !!  The truth that we seek will always
be filtered thru our perceptions ... and conceptions.

ONLY IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS have i accepted that humans actually walked on the Moon.  That concept was
forged back in 1969, when this country was very involved in the liberation of Vietnam.  My thinking was full of
the kind of thought that produced statements like, "How the heck could we place a person on the Moon ... con-
sidering the cost ... when we are spendin' all kinds of money in 'Nam ?!!"

AND NOW ... i totally believe that our Space Program has placed a rover on the panet, Mars.  Perhaps a  personal
leap of Faith ... maybe.

ANYHOW... let's look at some illustrations ..........


----------



## hoofhearted

CHRIS ... almost forgot ... the Davis, pin-spanner nut has been observed ONLY on the 1918
H-D bicycle ... and it has a different thread pitch and outer diameter than those produced by 
other companies, like Fauber, or Mead.

  .......patric


----------



## sm2501

Someone mentioned earlier maybe we need a Mead thread, I think we do. Why? Well, how much do we actually know about the Mead company except they were a huge mail order outfit that marketed bicycles very well. But were they a manufacturer? Or were they an assembler? My thoughts they were assemblers. We know through the 30's and beyond they were buying bikes from Schwinn, Columbia and Manton Smith, and used their own color and labled them as Meads.

Isn't it more probable Davis sold Mead frames, forks and other sundries and Mead painted and assembled to make their own bikes. I have always heard that Mead bought manufacturers overstock and assembled them to be Meads. Maybe a old wives tale, but then again maybe not. 

Let us learn...Mead experts speak up, I know I need the education.


----------



## chitown

Patric,
Being part Danish has made it easier for me to embrace a good Viking flick now and then. My "liking" of Mead has more to do with my initial research on George Lewis who founded the Monark Silver King co. What I like more than a particular company like Mead or Monark Silver King or Schwinn's for that matter is finding out the history. I think it is easy to jump to the conclusion that Davis made the HD bike. But if it weren't for the sprocket, there is nothing Davis built about them. 

If Davis built all these bikes for Sears, why did they (Davis) go out of business? Sears continued to sell bikes. Who got those contracts after Davis? Why would Davis join the American Bicycle Association in 1918 and go against the "Mail Order" side of the bike business? Why would Davis offer 1/2" pitch chains to Sears and yet offer a skip-tooth on their house brand Dayton bikes?

As to your point about the 1918 Mead "Repair Fork" not showing the detail you need to prove it's a Harley fork, please remember that that drawing is no bigger than my thumb. You will also notice that the threads are drawn as straight lines and not oval as it "should" appear. And the point about the top plate having a greater amount of angled portion to the bottom 2 plates, they are the same plates as each others, just flip the middle one and you've got the magic HD fork. My scribbles are not done to exact scale or proportions, only used to visualize how that fork was made.


----------



## Flat Tire

Well they sure do look similar, I wonder if HD had a hand in the design and construction of the HD bike ? Since they had already been building motorcycles for 15 years. Its easy to conclude DSM made the HD bicycles ......according to Harley Davidsons own archives there was a signed contract with DSM to produce, sell and deliver the main components to Milwaukee. I'm sure they must have visited the Davis factory before entering into such a deal, and if DSM contracted with Mead to help fill orders they surely would have had to have approval from HD. And maybe they did, but theres no mention of it anywhere.

But the main reason that I believe the HDs were Davis made is because Davis Sewing Machine had its own Baseball Team, and if you gots yer own ball team, you dont need no help building bikes....


----------



## Flat Tire

Heres a good pic of the HD fork, now check out that front fender hanger, or what ever it is...doesnt look homemade but I've never seen one. I had pics from the side but cant find em....those brackets bend around and go under each side of the fender...


----------



## bike

*Wow*



hoofhearted said:


> CHRIS (chitown) ... Many things are possible .. but not as many things are probable.  It is POSSIBLE that
> Mead built every ride except the Dayton .. but i don't believe it is PROBABLE.  When a person lays their
> ,,,,
> 
> ANYHOW... let's look at some illustrations ..........




WOW! LYNN let you put that in the Living Room?????????????????!@!@$VFKJ_)-90340-00!


----------



## hoofhearted

*C'mon, Now !!!*

BIKE ... no WOW necessary ... that H-D is not in MY living room ... it's in Flat Tire's living room 
or the pic of it is.  Who's on First ?

...... patric


----------



## okozzy

*++++++++++++????+++++*

---------------=================----------------------



sm2501 said:


> Someone mentioned earlier maybe we need a Mead thread, I think we do.


----------



## hoofhearted

*EnlargeDayton badges ... Thank you to sm2501 ............  page 8 ... entry line #72*

THANK YOU, sm2501, for enlarging those Dayton badges for me ...page 8 of this thread .. entry #72 !!!

..............  patric

More pics .......


----------



## hoofhearted

*Last entry submitted itself ... believe it or not.*

HOLY CRAP ... that last memo was anxious to get posted .... forgot to mention that 
in these recent pics ... that Yale bicycle is a Shelby-Built YALE.


----------



## bike

sm2501 said:


> Someone mentioned earlier maybe we need a Mead thread, I think we do. Why? Well, how much do we actually know about the Mead company except they were a huge mail order outfit that marketed bicycles very well. But were they a manufacturer? Or were they an assembler? My thoughts they were assemblers. We know through the 30's and beyond they were buying bikes from Schwinn, Columbia and Manton Smith, and used their own color and labled them as Meads.
> 
> Isn't it more probable Davis sold Mead frames, forks and other sundries and Mead painted and assembled to make their own bikes. I have always heard that Mead bought manufacturers overstock and assembled them to be Meads. Maybe a old wives tale, but then again maybe not.
> 
> Let us learn...Mead experts speak up, I know I need the education.




Maybe we need to break motorbikes out of pre 33- from early diamond with an under bar to the ~c1908 gendron and iver "Trumpet" models- also a debate rages who built the 15~21 Indian deluxe motorbike -one original carries a davis decal on the seat tube, I have lit that says "BUILT AND BACKED BY THE FAMOUS MAKERS OF THE INDIAN MOTOCYCLE," And other say Westfield-due to construction points.

Then there are the Excelscior la porte bikes that came under many names including elgin... dead ringer to the eye except for the "volcano"...


----------



## hoofhearted

PRESENTED HERE ARE SOME Excelsior-Built motorbikes .. referenced by BIKE.  They really do look 
like a Davis frame design .. remarkably so.  BIKE's reference to a VOLCANO can be seen in the pics.


----------



## chitown

Look at the chain ring + frame. This is a 1918 catalog. I won't go so far and say that the Elgin is a Mead because I think this post-dates Meads liquidation of older stock and frame building equipment... so sometime past 23-25ish.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Oh, Those Motorbikes !!!*

FOUND THIS ARTICLE TO BE fairly interesting ... am hopin' a reader can place the copy into 
their picture folder .. enlarge it and read on.


----------



## bud poe

*FOUND THIS ARTICLE TO BE fairly interesting ... am hopin' a reader can place the copy into 
their picture folder .. enlarge it and read on. * 
*I believe a member posted this article in his blog (can't remember who, but I think he's from "across the pond").  I too thought it was interesting, I had never considered that "serious" cyclists would have been so offended by the trend of American manufacturers designing bicycles to resemble motorcycles.  It seems as these "motorbikes" were regarded by some as gimmicky toys with all sorts of superfluous bells & whistles....To me they have always represented some of the most interesting design ideas and marketing strategies of the time...
I've always been fascinated with the complex relationships bicycles and motorcycles have had over the years, bikes giving birth to motorcycles and then trying to mimic their bastard sons ever since....It seems that the motorized revolution in the early 20th century also played a major role in the demise of the love affair America had with the bicycle...
Didn't mean to sidetrack the thread with my ramblings, I've got another Davis built (I think) frame to post soon to get us back on topic....
Thanks again everyone who contributed to this one, TONS of knowledge (and laughs) shared here....*


----------



## dfa242

chitown said:


> Look at the chain ring + frame. This is a 1918 catalog. I won't go so far and say that the Elgin is a Mead because I think this post-dates Meads liquidation of older stock and frame building equipment... so sometime past 23-25ish.




Interesting - my '24 Elgin appears to have the same chainring as this mead.


----------



## chitown

hoofhearted said:


> FOUND THIS ARTICLE TO BE fairly interestingView attachment 67810




Interesting indeed. Interesting because the American motobike is purely that... American. What the English were missing is that these weren't just bikes to get kids to and from school. What they didn't understand was the Boy Scout movement here and the influence of marketing to kids that were in the Scouts. Some high ranking scout members were also VP's of major bike distributors/manufacturers...

Many of the bikes that have the lower cross-bar that has "Volcano or Fluted" ends and attached appear to be converted from older frames. I believe many of these were added to frames that were unused or overstock. This was evident by the drop in bicycle production from 1900 up to WWI. There are very few frames that were designed to be moto-bike but very many of them appear to have been converted from roadster type frames. Why would you have these lovely internal and external lugged frames that were being made and having these clumsy add-on pipes for a cross bar. They didn't care if the welds were smooth, they just had to make more moto-bikes because the kids were buying them... well the parents were buying but either way, a moto-bike was cooler than a camelback if you knew anything about being cool. But with the war in Europe growing the US manufacturers were being asked to conserve on materials used, besides the fact that many of the bicycle manufacturers were also making motorcycles for the government or filling 75mm mustard gas shells and such.

The reason for all of these "converted" frames may lie in the government limiting the styles, design features and accessories for bicycles because of the war effort.


----------



## hoofhearted

chitown (Chris)  the War Department Restrictions Regarding Bicycle Manfacture During WWI is a 
phenomenal read !!!  If you readers have not peeped this article ... save it to your pic folders .. 
go there ... enlarge the document and read on !!! 

WOW !!!

GOIN' BACK TO READ IT ONE MORE ONCE ........ pleasde doi yourserlf a big bih flavor ,,, go raed 
thatr atrticle ,,, my typoing iis goihn' shizz axx ,,.. outra heer ,,,,,,,,,, patchcreek


----------



## Gary Mc

Chris, Thank you!!!!! I agree with Patric on phenomenal read, I had no idea these type restrictions were placed on manufacturers during WWI.  This explains a lot of things we see on bikes just after 1918!!!!  It also helps explain the items that should be used to restore them correctly.


----------



## hoofhearted

IT APPEARS THAT the War Manufacturing RESTRICTIONS were to be in effect beginning Oct. 1, 1918 ... recalling a few 
American Motorcyclist And Bicyclist magazines .. i can remember seeing some Davis ads from this period of time .. the 
ads featured Davis Dayton models ... indeed .. the bicycles had non-dropside fenders (as in restriction) ... with no more 
than four models offered .. and MAY have had blackout features where nickel was intended.  The ads were patriotic .. 
as in, Let's All Do Our Fair Share For The War Effort ... or similar.  The peace accord was signed Nov. 11, 1918.  Had the 
war ended much later, we may have seen a lot more of these WWI War-Time Bicycles.

..........  patric


----------



## chitown

*1919 Davis ad*






Then as soon as all these manufacturers are ready to implement this... armistice ends these restrictions almost as soon as they were to be implemented. Making the manufacturers scrambling to get those cross-bar motorbikes, loaded with ridiculously heavy equipment.

I think the WWI experience coupled with the birth of the motorcycle industry lead to a new market that became the motor-bike craze. Kids were being marketed to like never before. The moto-bikes mimicked the military bikes with the heavy duty features and played off the motorcycle lines with really raked out front ends with truss bars, extra long handlebars...

I do agree it must have been a madhouse in most factories of that time and throughout the industry to adapt to the rapidly changing markets and raw material availability.


----------



## Balloontyre

*Davis and Elgins*

It's clear that Davis labeled bikes for Sears,  Yale, Master, Chief etc.

These attached catalog pics are the first year that the Elgin Motorbike( not Elgin King) appears in catalogs, 1920 B&W, 1921 Color, 1922 and 23 are the same for the Motor Bike also. Both images look very much like the Chief. 

So... Are the attached Davis bikes?


----------



## chitown

Balloontyre said:


> It's clear that Davis labeled bikes for Sears, Yale, Master, Chief etc.




Yep, clear as mud! That is interesting that they have the same front sprocket as the Chief.


----------



## hoofhearted

KEEPING IN MIND that 1922 was the last OFFICIAL FULL YEAR of Davis production ... when we look at Sear's ads.

In addition Shelby Cycle Co. purchased the Davis Sewing Machine Co. in mid 1923.  Shelby may have supplied Sear's 
during this and subsequent time.

...........  patric cafaro

PLEASE ... NO PM's ... Instead ... Go Direct >>>  hoofhearted121@yahoo.com <<<


----------



## Balloontyre

chitown said:


> Yep, clear as mud! That is interesting that they have the same front sprocket as the Chief.




It's the sprocket that started this research, I have an Elgin sporting a Davis ring, not sayin it's not possible that it was swapped somewhere along the way. The chain ring I like to call the ninja star, looks like the Master and Yale ring of the teens.

Seeing the Chief ring on the Elgin makes sense if they were both made by Davis, or the Mead made Davis made Elgin made me crazy.


----------



## sm2501

A new discovery has come to light, I recant any previous statements about Davis building Sears Chiefs, here us proof positive that Mead was indeed the manufacturer!


----------



## bricycle

...lol!!!!!!.......


----------



## 37fleetwood

You realize you just sent Patric into a tizzy don't you??? 


sm2501 said:


> A new discovery has come to light, I recant any previous statements about Davis building Sears Chiefs, here us proof positive that Mead was indeed the manufacturer!


----------



## chitown

sm2501 said:


> A new discovery has come to light, I recant any previous statements about Davis building Sears Chiefs, here us proof positive that Mead was indeed the manufacturer!




Scott,

LOL! Will your comedy tour be going to all the major US cities this winter or just select markets?

Chris


----------



## Gary Mc

sm2501 said:


> A new discovery has come to light, I recant any previous statements about Davis building Sears Chiefs, here us proof positive that Mead was indeed the manufacturer!




Scott, Is that the devil looking on making you say that LOL?  I believe I see him on the right in the pic. - Gary


----------



## sm2501

Driving Patric nuts....


----------



## sm2501

The tour will remain in Ohio, visiting friends before the MLC swap tomorrow.


----------



## Flat Tire

*1913 Dayton Motorcycle*

In an ad for the Dayton spring fork bicycles its states "This fork is a duplicate of the spring fork used so successfully on the Dayton Motorcycle".
Thought I'd share some pictures of a friends Dayton Motorcycle he recently purchased. Its a 1913 in original condition. The leaf spring and fork are the same design as on the bicycles, (see Scott McCaskeys in earlier post) and is covered by the fender. So how does the spring "flex" without damaging the fenders? If you look close you can see where the fender is cut just in front and just behind the fork, and has hinges. How cool is that!
The bike also sports the same Dayton badge as the early bicycles.


----------



## Balloontyre

Flat Tire said:


> In an ad for the Dayton spring fork bicycles its states "This fork is a duplicate of the spring fork used so successfully on the Dayton Motorcycle".
> Thought I'd share some pictures of a friends Dayton Motorcycle he recently purchased. Its a 1913 in original condition. The leaf spring and fork are the same design as on the bicycles, (see Scott McCaskeys in earlier post) and is covered by the fender. So how does the spring "flex" without damaging the fenders? If you look close you can see where the fender is cut just in front and just behind the fork, and has hinges. How cool is that!
> The bike also sports the same Dayton badge as the early bicycles.




Cool pic Don, the bike and motorcycle share the same curved truss rods also.


----------



## chitown

The Dayton Motorcycle was assembled in Chicago according to this site.

http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2009/12/with-love-and-dayton.html

The De Luxe motor was the same as the Sears motorcycles (Spacke DeLuxe engine). Excelsior Cycle Co built the Sears De Luxe model according to this Auto trade magazine in 1913.


----------



## prewarbikes4sale

*Ha Ha*



sm2501 said:


> Driving Patric nuts....




Short drive lol


----------



## sm2501

prewarbikes4sale said:


> Short drive lol




We were going backwards...


----------



## moparwrecker72

*Davis built Shapleigh Hardware Company*

My Davis built bike.  Purchased at a garage sale in Nebraska.  We use it as our camping bike.  Guessing it is from mid teens.


----------



## chitown

That Rugby may be Schwinn built. Though the strike document states "Ruby" I think this is a possible typo. But anything is possible.


----------



## chitown

sm2501 said:


> A new discovery has come to light, I recant any previous statements about Davis building Sears Chiefs, here us proof positive that Mead was indeed the manufacturer!




You know what is really ironic about this is that Mead Paper Co was founded in Dayton Ohio by Colonel Daniel Mead... James R Mead's (Buffalo Hunter, Indian Trader) first cousin.

"In 1846 Daniel Mead helped establish Ellis, Chafflin & Company, a paper company, in Dayton, Ohio. He was a part owner until 1882, when he became the sole owner and changed the name to *Mead Paper Company*. George H. Mead, Daniel's grandson, ran the company starting in around 1905"

So Mead was in Dayton long before the Huffman's ever showed up... just saying.


----------



## hoofhearted

CHITOWN (Chris) ... in light of these newly-revealed factoids,  this news does not suprize me at all !!  Ripley's Believe It or Not Museum in
Gatlinburg, Tenn, (sometime in the mid-seventies) had a Bible, hand-printed in what is believed to be an archaiac form of what many would
call the Celtic language.  Now get this ... this book, the pages of which are now forensically-proven to be made out of a mixture of haggis,
mead, licorice root and rice flour ... has a new book .. that is not contained in contemporary Bibles ... The Book of Eefooviums !!!

The Book of Eefooviums reveals that God has a last name ... a last name He handed down to Adam (and therefore, Eve) ... The Name Is MEAD !!

The name, Mead, has been found to be associated with everything under the Sun .. and a few shady items ... like those Moving Rocks in
Death Valley National Park.

And so, gentle reader ... the Mead association with ALL THINGS ... is something this writer is just gonna have to learn to live with ... especially
since i have witnessed a filmed-reading of this Archaic-Celtic Book ... the film shows many, randomly-chosen readers, reading from the
Book of Eefooviums ... and when they do ... their voices sound remarkably like Sean Connery.


----------



## chitown

*Founder of Pragmatism*

"the individual mind can exist only in relation to other minds with shared meanings" (George Herbert Mead).

Then I'm sure you're familiar with James Mead's other cousin George Herbert Mead. An American philosopher, sociologist and psychologist, primarily affiliated with the University of Chicago, where he was one of several distinguished pragmatists. He is regarded as one of the founders of social psychology and the American sociological tradition in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Herbert_Mead

Patrick, I've been doing way too much research into this Mead connection and in that time I've come to believe Mead wasn't building their own frames for much of the teens. James Mead did start a separate company called Mead Manufacturing in the teens, but I'm having some trouble nailing down the dates and scope of that endeavor. I'm also open to the idea that Mead bought frames from Davis Sewing at some point. The question I want to know is when... where and from who etc. The Harley trail has been leading me to *Excelsior Cycle Co* as being more suspect than Mead as a manufacturer of the teen Harley's and Sears Motobikes. Another suspect is *M&G Manufacturing co* formed in Chicago by A. J. Musselman and D. W. Gould ** (Lyman Gould's brother). In 1910 they were formed to manufacturer and supply bicycle and motorcycle/auto parts (basically a supply house) Perfect timing because Excelsior was having the sale of the century having to liquidate all their overstock and materials in 1910-11.

** D. W. Gould was previously in Chicago Sales Office of the Davis Sewing Machine Co and before that he was a purchasing agent for Sears Roebuck & Co.


----------



## hoofhearted

CHITOWN (Chris) ... i realize that doing research in the antique-bicycle arena is very important to you.  And rightly so.  Too many 
of us collectors refrain from doing any research about the historic-nature of the prize .. choosing instead to focus on the cash value 
of the bicycle ... what to buy and the realized profit from a sale.  This hobby has room for collectors of all-imagined motivations.

BUT KNOW THIS, CHRIS ... the real joy of the bicycle to me is the steel .. the stampings .. the castings .. the drop forgings ... the manner and 
design of how the tubes are not only arranged ... but how those tubes are attached to one another.  Because of where i live, i have been privy to 
get my peepers on Davis .. Sear's .. Harley-Davidson .. and hardware-store, privately-badged Davis-Built rides.  I study these marques to the 
point my behavior may be considered sinful in some regions of our country.  I also answer my fone, when i can.  Since maybe 1990 .. have 
taken two to three fone calls a week ... many of the calls are for clarification and information within the Davis-Bicycle arena.  The questions 
posed to me may range from, "What does the dropstand on a 1913 Master look like ??" ... "Should my bicycle sport the 3-edge or the 4-edge 
pierced dropstand earset ??" ... What does that late 1922 Davis dropstand look like ??" ... "When was the last year Davis built a tall-frame 
Harley-Davidson??" .. "Can I build me a Harley-Davidson Bicycle using a Dayton frame and fork ??"  These are the good calls.

THE BAD AND THE UGLY ... "I just got me an old Dayton bicycle ... it says "SCHNELL" on the front plaque ... did they have candy-apple 
paint in the twenties ??" .. "How can I tell a Schwinn Autocycle from a Mumford and Sons Auto-Byke .. with wood wheels, from St. Louis ??" 
... "I just bought an Elgin ... how can I tell if it is a Dayton .. a Schwinn ... or one of those aluminum bikes ??"  ... "No, really ... I can't send 
you a picture .. but what do you realy think of my green, Black Phantom ??"

ANYHOW, CHRIS ... keep up the good research work that you do .... at this point in my life .. i am out of horsepower to contine debating whether 
or not Davis bicycles .. Sears's teen's bicycles .. H-D bicycles .. or private-label, hardware store, Davis bicycles were made by Davis or by Mead.

WITH MY HEARTFELT RESPECT for your documentation and literature ... all future reveals from this writer will focus on Davis Built Bicycles ... 
primarily, real-steel artifacts .. and a wee bit of literature.

.................  patric cafaro


----------



## wspeid

*Model  A  172 Dayton motor bike*

Anyone know what the A denotes in this serial stamping?   Based on reading here mine looks like a 1919 model with some of the optional black coloration... pictures to follow shortly


----------



## hoofhearted

wspeid ... show us pics of your bicycle when you can ........ please !!!

Thanks ....... patric cafaro


----------



## sam

did they have candy-apple 
paint in the twenties ??" .. 

Even better---Plastic Paints.

I once has an old Mead Crusader frame---smallish screw in BB cups(one piece or two piece crank type) and all the tubing had been rolled from flat sheets and the seems were brazed---the frame was lighter than other mead frames I had--ornate badge lead me to beleave it was teens or older.


----------



## wspeid

*For Hoofhearted*

I posted pictures in an album here... I've since fixed the kick stand being on backwards.  

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/album.php?albumid=1285


----------



## hoofhearted

*A Very-Complete 1917 And Later Dayton Motorbike*

wspeid ... thank you for posting those many pics of your Dayton motorbike.  Was hoping a vision of the bicycle
would surrender a wee bit of insight as to the meaning of that letter "A" and other "extra numbers" on the bottom
of the crank hanger, but i find myself still fogged by the presentation.  Your pictoral-documentation of "Dayton-Only"
traits ... the fork .. the frame architecture .. tube joins .. badge and chainring will serve well as models of reference
for years to come.  One frame-trait that is found on 1917 and later Dayton bicycles (and some Yale bicycles) is the
"pinching-in" on the seat stays, just above the fender bridge.  Sorry i could not be more helpful with the meaning
of the letter/number configuration.

................  patric


----------



## facair55

*Can anyone help with identifying bike*

All I know so far is that the chainring is not original for this bike. Missing head badge, and that the rear fender is off a gir's bike. I'm guessing 1920's. 

Thanks for any help
Rodger Armbrust


----------



## hoofhearted

MY DEAR facair55 ... do not cry .. do not weep .. do not mourn ...... while your bicycle is not a Davis-Built .. it does 
have many good parts attached to it ... tiller bars .. those pedals .. clean chain .. a non-Davis, non-bayonet crank .. 
that saddle .. a very-stout Davis-Dayton chainring .. those wheels .. tiller bars .. half-inch dropside girl's fender in rear 
.. interesting fender in front .. a fork that many collectors may be able to identify, but i cannot .. and don't forget those 
tiller bars !!!  Let's take this message to a more-positive view ... the very land that this mystery ride is standing on may 
be owned by you .. and you either paid cash .. or, owe less than fifty percent on the mortgage.  This is still a good day !!
However, if you are renting, like many folks .. you may want to deep-six some, if not, all of this entire message.

TILLER BARS .. that's a good thing !!

.........  patric cafaro


----------



## facair55

*Darn that chainring!*

MY DEAR facair55 ... do not cry .. do not weep .. do not mourn ...... while your bicycle is not a Davis-Built .. it does 
have many good parts attached to it ... tiller bars .. those pedals .. clean chain .. a non-Davis, non-bayonet crank .. 
that saddle .. a very-stout Davis-Dayton chainring .. those wheels .. tiller bars .. half-inch dropside girl's fender in rear 
.. interesting fender in front .. a fork that many collectors may be able to identify, but i cannot .. and don't forget those 
tiller bars !!!  Let's take this message to a more-positive view ... the very land that this mystery ride is standing on may 
be owned by you .. and you either paid cash .. or, owe less than fifty percent on the mortgage.  This is still a good day !!
However, if you are renting, like many folks .. you may want to deep-six some, if not, all of this entire message.

TILLER BARS .. that's a good thing !!

.........  patric cafaro


Thanks Patric for the feedback, yes I am sad that it's not a Davis made bike (always wanted one). I am usually very careful about buying old bicycles but took a gamble on this one. Did not take the time to research (lesson learned) that darn Dayton sprocket!  I will probably remove the Dayton chainring and hang it on my wall. The old bike is still pretty cool, with better wheels it will be a good machine to ride and enjoy. -Rodger

Note: Currently restoring an 1897 G&J Rambler Model 19 bicycle. Hope to have it done this fall. 

1955 (early) Restored X-53 Western Flyer Super Deluxe 
1936 Nice Original WF Shelby Motorbike
1943 Huffman Dayton Military 
1944 Huffman Dayton Military (from WPAFB)
1941 Like new Huffman Dayton


----------



## ejlwheels

Were any parts of Black Beauties made by Davis?
I know there is an article regarding a 1920 strike showing that at least some Black Beauty frames and/or parts were made by Schwinn.

The bike pictured below appears to have Davis 1 inch sided fenders, a Davis stand, and the chainring,
although 1/2 inch (and backwards here), shares design characteristics with DAYTON and HDHDHD chainrings.
Someone could have added the stand and fenders along the way, but the chainring is what it is.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Is this a Davis-Built Black Beauty or WHAT ???!!*

EJLWHEELS ... follow instructions in these diagrams.  Take a few more fotos applying these instructions.  Post them on this thread.

thanks ............  patric cafaro


----------



## ejlwheels

I don't think the frame is Davis-made now, mainly because of the serial number.
The rear frame stay/seat post area looks like Shelby or Schwinn to me.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Maybe It's A ..... ??? .................  i dunno !!*

EJLWHEELS ... sorry ... I got nuthin' but questions ... see attachments .. maybe the pics will awaken some 
primordial thoughts within someone's noggin ..... 

 ...............  patric


----------



## dfa242

This 1919 Haverford catalog seems to suggest they were making their own frames at that time.


----------



## hoofhearted

dfa242 ... good call !!!

.................  p.


----------



## chitown

dfa242 said:


> This 1919 Haverford catalog seems to suggest they were making their own frames at that time.









Haverford was a jobber. The Schwinn strike document is dated *1919* also.  Very similar to Mead, Premier, Arrow, and the American Motor Cycle Company catalogs of that era. All of these brands have that English bladed fork and fishmouthed flush joints and very similar looking catalogs. Sears also offered the bladed fork.


I'm not sure about the Black Beauty bike shown because of the repaint and odd old repairs??? and the sloppy joints are not flush as the literature would suggest. I would strip that old paint off and see if there are any signs of original paint or darts. This could be a Frankenbike put together and rebadged/sprocked BB.


----------



## chitown

*Catalogs from other Jobbers of same era*

Here are some shots of American Motor Cycle Co's 1911 catalog (earliest bladed fork literature I've seen)











Here is from 1913 Premier Cycles catalog showing the same frame illustration as the Black Beauty.


----------



## hoofhearted

*American Motor Cycle Co.*


----------



## chitown

hoofhearted said:


> View attachment 106909View attachment 106908




This was A J Musselman's jobbing company. He used Consolidated Manufacturing in Toledo Ohio for his frames. So these should be the same as early Yale and Snell badged bikes. Consolidated Mfg was bought out by Davis Sewing in '16? I think. So we've got a Davis connection here in this Davis thread!

1911 American DeLuxe:









Looks like we have a sprocket match (except for pitch) to a bike posted earlier in this thread:





So could this be a Consolidated Mfg machine???


----------



## hoofhearted

*Connectivity Within The Manufacturers*

chitown (CHRIS) ... you really have discovered many connections within the manufacturers of early 1900's bicycles !!!

The illustration of the American DeLUXE 1911 does show a chainring design that was used on a Davis motorbike .. 'tho the 
pitch is different (as you have pointed out).  Evidently, The American Motor Cycle Co. was still using a two-piece crank on this 
model.  The pin-spanner-type locknut for the two parts can be clearly-seen in the illustration of their American DeLUXE 
Model A of 1911 ... (chainring side, axel-base of right crank).  

While the American DeLUXE Model A does have a two-piece crank ... it is very possible this crank may have a single, drive-pin 
on the frontside of the right crank arm ... mating to a single, similar-size hole in the chainring.  

The reader may now be asking, "Why bring this up ??!"

Could be that many manufacturers used a two-piece crank in these early years of the 20th Century.  If one were to look at two, 
Consolidated Manufacturing Co. ads from 1907 ... one could see the use of the two-piece crank on the Snell .. the Yale ... and 
the Yale-California bicycles.  The Yale-California Bicycle was produced as a Model of 1907, ONLY ... no other ads featuring this 
bicycle have been observed by this writer ... and if any come to light .. they will be reported in The CABE.

The Snell and Yale cranks of 1907 did not make use of a single, drive-pin ... these rides featured the more-antiquated 'SPIDER'.  
Although antiquated back then ... the 'spider' on a two-piece crank has been the way to roll on upper-end contemporary road bicycles.

Pause here ... and reflect on the reality that Davis purchased the Snell and Yale line from Consolidated in 1916.

Back to those two-piece cranks ......... The Snell and the Yale -- AS A DAVIS MAKE .. always had a one-piece crank.  But ... as a personal 
afterthought .. the Dayton (and possibly the Davis-Yale RACER) DID HAVE a two-piece crank ... with a single, drive-pin.

...........................  patric cafaro

POST SCRIPT ... If you would like to follow more information on the Pre-Davis ... SNELL ... YALE ... and YALE-California Bicycles ... 
you can do a CABE search .... "Question for PAT or anyone ..."  ... started by SAM.

POST-POST SCRIPT ... 'tho it appears this writer has drawn many conclusions in this entry .. do not be lulled into a state of 
absolute conclusiveness ... much more research is indicated before any real conclusions can be reached.


----------



## Machine Age Victim

anyone able to grab a quick measurement of the headset bearing cup diameter? It isn't take the same size retainer as a '30s CWC, may need to use loose bearings.


----------



## dave the wave

deleted........


----------



## Champy

Hello, Im trying to find out if this is a real HD bicycle?  If so, anyone know the year?  Im not sure what to do with this thing.  It looks like it spent a few decades at the bottom of a pond. Serial number looks like 304838. 

Thanks for any help.


----------



## jkent

I'm guessing the badge is long gone? But a shot of the holes for the badge might help.
Just the sprocket is the $$ maker the rest looks like toast. The fork and hubs might be salvageable. What type of hubs are they?


----------



## Balloontyre

The frame serial number stampings are not consistent with the Davis made bikes.
The chain ring may be the the only Harley attribute.


----------



## dave the wave

its a westfield or pope manuf. bike with a H-D sprocket.so yeah,part it out and call it good.or sell it on ebay and fake the bidders out and make a killing.


----------



## Champy

*Hubs*

The rear hub is a model D. Not sure about the front but looks like a ND.  Cant see the badge holes anymore.  I think the wheels were 28s with cladding.


----------



## sqrly

The seat stays look schwinn.  Seems like this is another one of those bikes built up from many bikes.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Added Horsepower To Your Foto Of H-D Chainring ...*

Used a feature of the Paint.Net app ... You may use this foto in any advertising you do .. if you 
are going to part with this chainring.  This chainring is an original .. teeth are a bit worn .. (the  
right side of each tooth is a bit worn) .. making each tooth look a bit pointy ... SO WHAT ??!! ... 
It's Still A Great Chainring !!!  

You are very fortunate.

............ patric cafaro

CHAMPY ... the foto IS a higher resolution ... but it does not show well in the format I am using.

Maybe there is someone out there like Ivo .. who I could send the foto to .. off the line .. then Ivo 
or some other kind soul could post it on this thread so that it shows huge ...


----------



## Champy

*frame*



dave the wave said:


> its a westfield or pope manuf. bike with a H-D sprocket.so yeah,part it out and call it good.or sell it on ebay and fake the bidders out and make a killing.




What traits make this a Westfield or Pope and not a Davis frame.  I would prefer not to "fake" anyone out and Im not interested in making a killing.  I just want to know all that is knowable about the bikes I buy.


----------



## dave the wave

you can tell by the fork,and front fender.spray WD 40 on the frame seat post mast,the bar that goes from the top of the crank hanger to the seat and see if you can see a decal that says pope or westfield.spray the tube from the head tube and the crank hanger and see if there anything there like the word indian.if you find nothing.chuck the frame and keep the rest of the parts and find the correct H-D frame and begin your H-D project.or just sell the sprocket and crank for $500.


----------



## bricycle

$500 for crank and chainwheel? one on the bay now is only at $167 with 32 hrs to go.....


----------



## Balloontyre

bricycle said:


> $500 for crank and chainwheel? one on the bay now is only at $167 with 32 hrs to go.....



with a bike attached to it.


----------



## hoofhearted

*One Of My Favorites ...........*







Here's a chainring I acquired a while back ... one day I will get the correct frame for it ... 1917 or 1919 H-D motorbike .. 
rusty .. but with no twists, tweaks. twerks or divits. JUST GOOD OL' RUST !!!  Apply the chainring .. hang on wall. 

Did I tell you this chainring is SO RUSTY it is no longer magnetic ??

C'mon, now ... how could that be ??!  

It never was magnetic ... but a magnet is attracted to it.

................  patric


----------



## chitown

These sprockets are not without controversy. There was supposedly someone making them a few years ago. There have been several examples of incorrect bicycles coming out of the wood works which were suspected of having faux patina added and/or thrown into a swampy brine to artificially age with these sprockets. Not saying that this is one of those, just that it is a possibility.

There were also some faux Harley badges out there as well. The ones I remember had signs of casting where the original was stamped.


----------



## hoofhearted

*What The Faux ??!*

Chitown ... you are absolutely correct ... my rusty specimen is authentic .. as is the one that is focused upon in this thread.

I would love to point out all of the qualities in a faux speciman .. but then it would read like an instruction manual for making 
excellent H-D chainrings of modern manufacture.

Currently .. NOBODY has mastered manufacturing the repro H-D ring that truly fools the eye !!!

................  patric


----------



## dave the wave

bricycle said:


> $500 for crank and chainwheel? one on the bay now is only at $167 with 32 hrs to go.....




OH.... OK,is that why he is showing the reverse side of it?


----------



## hoofhearted

Chitown ... there is nothing wrong with a dis-restored paint job.  The ones that are well done satisfy a need to preserve and they 
serve as a substitute for someone who just has to have paint ... but does not want the "bright and shiny" aspect of a restoration.  
The motorcycle hobby has accepted this category of paint with open arms ......  

Dave The Wave ... I am just happy the seller of the H-D chainring put a foto of his/her chainring in the auction.  Altho' I am not 
a player in this auction ... I believe it would be in bad form for me to verbalize a judgment as  to the authenticity of that specimen.

Maybe ... maybe AFTER the auction has ended .. if someone were to ask .. in this thread .. I could share authenticity information 
with you as a collective.  I won't be answerin' any questions about it off the line.

Many folks are not aware of which side is THE FRONT.  Now don't leave me hangin' here ... how many rides have you seen  having 
a lettered chainring ... have that chainring placed backwards (??)

The Front Of a H-D chainring always has a dished-out area ... similar to the Davis DAYTON chainring .. however .. some of those 
original Dayton chainrings do not have the dished-out feature.  They are flat on both sides .. and 3/16-inch thick.  I believe the 
old term for dished-out is "hobbed".

The authentic H-D chainring has a particular area where the hobbing starts ... and a particular area where the hobbing ends.

Also .. there are two ways the factory "hobbed" the chainring nearest the teeth.

In addition ... the authentic H-D chainring has numerous 'stray-shots' away from perfection.  Furthermore ... and I type the following
with intentional humility .. I could teach you all that you know about a correct H-D chainring .. BUT I won't teach you all I know about them.

Doing so would create a new industry ... and it has .. to a limited degree.  Over the years, many have asked me what are the particulars to 
manufacturing an extremely-correct H-D chainring.  I have helped many ... since about 1988 ... using stainless steel .. D-4 carbon steel .. 
mild steel ... even "lost-wax" cast steel.

But in each and every instance .. I taught an individual all they know ... but never all I know about the authentic chainring.

......................  patric


----------



## hoofhearted

*Hartung Auction 2011 ...*

Here's an unusual H-D specimen that sold in the 2011 Hartung auction for a price in excess of TWO-Thousand Simoleons ... 
AND it did NOT have a headbadge.  The frame / fork design don't look very H-D .. do they ??!  

No they do not.  But if the collector relies upon ONLY the 1917-1921 H-D Bicycle catalogues for information .. a real prize
could be missed.  The bicycle featured in this foto IS a H-D Bicycle ... 1918 ... Model B-1 ... The H-D Military Model.  In this 
case ... the winner of the auction took a real chance on frame authenticity .. this one is not in the catalogue.

The B-1 featured here is A Naval specimen .. painted in battleship gray.


----------



## Champy

*Chainring*



bricycle said:


> $500 for crank and chainwheel? one on the bay now is only at $167 with 32 hrs to go.....




HD ring on ebay went for 306.48.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111184961201?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## Champy

*Authenticity*



hoofhearted said:


> *Maybe ... maybe AFTER the auction has ended .. if someone were to ask .. in this thread .. I could share authenticity information
> with you as a collective.  I won't be answerin' any questions about it off the line.
> *
> 
> ......................  patric




Still interested in sharing Patric?  Love to hear any insight you have about the chainring or anything else for that matter.


----------



## sqrly

hoofhearted said:


> Chitown ... there is nothing wrong with a dis-restored paint job.  The ones that are well done satisfy a need to preserve and they
> serve as a substitute for someone who just has to have paint ... but does not want the "bright and shiny" aspect of a restoration.
> The motorcycle hobby has accepted this category of paint with open arms ......
> 
> Dave The Wave ... I am just happy the seller of the H-D chainring put a foto of his/her chainring in the auction.  Altho' I am not
> a player in this auction ... I believe it would be in bad form for me to verbalize a judgment as  to the authenticity of that specimen.
> 
> Maybe ... maybe AFTER the auction has ended .. if someone were to ask .. in this thread .. I could share authenticity information
> with you as a collective.  I won't be answerin' any questions about it off the line.
> 
> Many folks are not aware of which side is THE FRONT.  Now don't leave me hangin' here ... how many rides have you seen  having
> a lettered chainring ... have that chainring placed backwards (??)
> 
> The Front Of a H-D chainring always has a dished-out area ... similar to the Davis DAYTON chainring .. however .. some of those
> original Dayton chainrings do not have the dished-out feature.  They are flat on both sides .. and 3/16-inch thick.  I believe the
> old term for dished-out is "hobbed".
> 
> The authentic H-D chainring has a particular area where the hobbing starts ... and a particular area where the hobbing ends.
> 
> Also .. there are two ways the factory "hobbed" the chainring nearest the teeth.
> 
> In addition ... the authentic H-D chainring has numerous 'stray-shots' away from perfection.  Furthermore ... and I type the following
> with intentional humility .. I could teach you all that you know about a correct H-D chainring .. BUT I won't teach you all I know about them.
> 
> Doing so would create a new industry ... and it has .. to a limited degree.  Over the years, many have asked me what are the particulars to
> manufacturing an extremely-correct H-D chainring.  I have helped many ... since about 1988 ... using stainless steel .. D-4 carbon steel ..
> mild steel ... even "lost-wax" cast steel.
> 
> But in each and every instance .. I taught an individual all they know ... but never all I know about the authentic chainring.
> 
> ......................  patric




The term, hob, hobbed or hobbing, refers to a specialized machining method with a purpose built machine for cutting gear teeth.  The hob cutter is a spiral (like a screw thread with grooves across the thread to create cutting teeth that spiral or wrap around a cylinder) cutter that is spun proportionate to a stack of gear blanks also spinning.  The hob axis is also angled slightly off the axis of the gear blanks so the spiral movement matches the rotation of the gear blanks creating straight gear teeth and very round gears.

Other gear or sprocket tooth shapes can be made by how the hob cutter is made and/or adjusting the hobbing machine.

Summery, hobbed sprockets refers to how the teeth were cut.  

Patric, the terms used in your description would be, undercut, step, hollow, profile, along with some others that are escaping my memory right now.


----------



## chitown

sqrly said:


> Patric, the terms used in your description would be, undercut, step, hollow, profile, along with some others that are escaping my memory right now.




Bevel is one that comes to mind. 

via wiki: "A bevelled edge refers to an edge of a structure that is not perpendicular to the faces of the piece. The words bevel and chamfer overlap in usage; in general usage they are often interchanged, while in technical usage they may sometimes be differentiated as shown in the image at right. A bevel is typically used to soften the edge of a piece for the sake of safety, wear resistance, or aesthetics; or to facilitate mating with another piece."


----------



## chitown

*A look inside Davis Sewing Machine factory in 1911*

Some folks may recognize a few of these photos of the factory. They appear in the 1914 Sears catalog! What conclusions can be made from this pairing of identical photos showing up in both Davis and Sears literature??? Did Sears use Davis exclusively during the teens? Not so fast, that same 1914 catalog shows the Excelsior Cycle Co built DeLuxe motorcycle offered that year. I theorize that Sears was buying from multiple builders depending on the model. The Chief looks Excelsior built, The Master looks Great Western built, the Tiger looks Davis built... to my eyes anyhow. 

But for now enjoy this piece of history on the Davis Sewing Machine Factory:


----------



## ejlwheels

I have a Sears "Peerless" and "Napolean," 
both of which I believe to be Davis-made from the teens.
They both have serial numbers running parallel to the chainring.


----------



## bricycle

Let's see pics!!!  call'n dibbs if'n you get rid of the Peerless....


----------



## dave the wave

ok,now that that ebay auction is over (and we may never know if it is real or repop because the seller would only show the back side of it) it had nothing to do with this thread.Mr.Champy,the only thing H-D on the bike is the crank and sprocket.soooo........like i said,keep it for your H-D project or sell it,cause you know the value of it LIKE I SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE.


----------



## Flashback Vintage Cycles

*pics from the HD museum*

here are two pics i took at the HD museum in Milwaukee. Sorry the quality stinks. Cell Phone pics.





Tim


----------



## bricycle

Thanks for the pics Tim.


----------



## ejlwheels

Interesting to me that the Peerless frame has a Mead style fork.
I theorize that the same enterprise was sourcing and assembling and supplying both Mead and Sears.
Perhaps it was Mead?


















Look at the frame similarities between a 1900ish Napolean




and a 1900ish Mead Sentinel


----------



## bricycle

Interesting that you brought that up (thanks) as I was thinking that Elgin Cycle Co. of Elgin Il. (1895-1908)had made the early Sears/Roebuck models. I have a 1897-8 Acme King (Sears Roebuck) (2) 1895-8 Napoleons and a mid teens Napoleon. I have seen a photo of The cycle co. and Elgin Watch co. buildings, they appear the same. May have had space there, as it was a HUGE complex. This makes sense, as The Elgin Cycle co. had always referred to their bikes as made like a clock and used Clock images in their ads as well. Incidently, Waltham watch and bikes of the same time period were also connected.


----------



## bricycle

Yes the Mead and Napoleon appear similar. Nice observation!  Love your Napoleon moto...
I call 'em a poor mans Chief!


----------



## hoofhearted

*Well ... I'll Be Hobbed !!!*

Sqrly and ALL ... that word (hobbed) came from an ancient magazine feature on chamfered chainrings ... the article then went into 'the recessed-face' 
aspect of some chainrings.  This is my only frame of reference.  I will avoid using that term in the future .. now that I know it's a reference to the teeth.

Thanks ALL !!!  

Someone was very fortunate to acquire that H-D chainring on e-b recently.  There is enough info from the reverse side of it to allow me 
to say, with NO reservations .. the chainring IS an authentic H-D specimen.  $306 plus postage is a deal.  

And I do agree with dave the wave ... champy ... a value of $500 for yours is very appropriate !!!

Now ... just for grins ... here is a quality repop (BOTTOM).. offered sometime in the past by a fellow Caber ... the face needs to be lathe-turned ... among 
other things.  I do not know if one is still available.

As you look at a real specimen (TOP) ... (and you need to be collecting fotos of them to continue to build your visual vocabulary) ...how does an 
authentic chainring compare / contrast to the raw repop.  You may notice on the authentic specimen ... the dished-out area (I mistakenly called that 
hobbing) is composed of TWO BEVELS Intersecting at a point just under the teeth.  You have got to look deep, boys and girls.  Study as many aspects as 
you can regarding where the bevel (the ramp in the spokes and letters) begins and ends.  As the bevel draws closer to the teeth from center ... 
the cut deepens.  How deep does an original go ??

Now ... once the longer bevel is created ... how is the ring UNDER the teeth treated.  Oh, Heck Yeah !!!  You will see another tiny bevel (ramp) ... about 
half the width of that ring.  Remember this.  And there is a variation ... on some authentic specimens .. that tiny ramp is slightly concave.  

Don't forget ... the teeth need to be chamfered.  But .. what other aspects can you see in the authentic piece .. that the repop cries to have ??

............  patric


----------



## bricycle

I see what you mean..........


----------



## Balloontyre

*Looks to me*

Authentic has soft shoulders on it's letters and slight breaks on corners of letters


----------



## dave the wave

thanks patric, its always good to be educated more on things that some of us don't know for sure.


----------



## hoofhearted

*SELF EXAM on the H-D Chainring ... Your Turn To Get Hobbed ..................*

Pictured below is a reproduction H-D Chainring.  Let's look at this chainring as tho' the owner believes 
it is ready to be polished-out and nickel plated.  The owner of the chainring sees you waltz thru the door 
... values your opinion as to having a keen eye ... and asks the following ......

"Say Budz ... just finished this here sprocket .. gonna get 'er polished and plated.  I don't really know 
where you stand on using a repop H-D chainring on a bicycle .. and I really don't give a shi-biss-kitt... 
but I value your keen and discerning eye.  What would you change in this piece of hardware ??
What would you leave alone ??  And, do you think there is enough metal left to make changes if need be ??"

NOTE ... you may want to download these images to your pic folder ... where you can magnify them and make 
comparisons with a chainring that you know is authentic.









  Pics 3 and 4 are Genuine H-D.


.............. patric cafaro


----------



## hoofhearted

*Oh, YEAH !!!   Daddy Is Twerkin' .. Now !!!*

Chitown ... your 1911, American Machinist publication in this thread is WAY The Bee's Knees !!!  

Thank You ......................  patric


----------



## Balloontyre

chitown said:


> I theorize that Sears was buying from multiple builders depending on the model. The Chief looks Excelsior built, The Master looks Great Western built, the Tiger looks Davis built... to my eyes anyhow.



Great article thank you,
what characteristics of the Chief and Master make you say Excelsior and GWM?


----------



## chitown

*Gear hobbing machines Excelsior Motor Mfg., Chicago 1910*



hoofhearted said:


> hobbed


----------



## fordsnake

Patric, is it really that hard to discern the differences between an original and a reproduction chain ring? It seems to me the originals were mass-produced using a forging process; stamping metal with a die using hydraulic pressure. Much like a cooking cutter; when cookies are freshly cut from a sheet of dough they have a soft rounded edge. The same thing occurs with stamping metal. 

Today, if someone wishes to reproduce a chainring and forego the expense of a foundry and molted metal, they'll choose a more economical route (still expensive) with cutting or milling lasers. However the edges are precise, clean and with no imperfection, blemishes or warmth.

Really how hard is it to detect the difference? It's like looking at a hand carved piece of furniture vs a piece of wood that's been milled with a router...fairly easy to discern


----------



## redline1968

I see the differences. The first two definitely show that the are repops. The second two are more pleasing to look at with no design distractions. Thank you for the comparisons.


----------



## dave the wave

here's a pic of the one that sold on ebay.


----------



## bricycle

dave the wave said:


> here's a pic of the one that sold on ebay.




"ok,now that that ebay auction is over (and we may never know if it is real or repop because the seller would only show the back side of it) it had nothing to do with this thread."

"*it had nothing to do with this thread*."


----------



## redline1968

Oh ya... That's a repop too me.  Here is mine I got a little bit ago. Got to say I love my I pad....


----------



## fattommy

fordsnake said:


> Patric, is it really that hard to discern the differences between an original and a reproduction chain ring? It seems to me the originals were mass-produced using a forging process; stamping metal with a die using hydraulic pressure. Much like a cooking cutter; when cookies are freshly cut from a sheet of dough they have a soft rounded edge. The same thing occurs with stamping metal.
> 
> Today, if someone wishes to reproduce a chainring and forego the expense of a foundry and molted metal, they'll choose a more economical route (still expensive) with cutting or milling lasers. However the edges are precise, clean and with no imperfection, blemishes or warmth.
> 
> Really how hard is it to detect the difference? It's like looking at a hand carved piece of furniture vs a piece of wood that's been milled with a router...fairly easy to discern




Carlton, in my experience, a production method for that chainring would be the part is blanked out then coined for the bevels and deburred.  Clearances in the die would probably leave some tearing on the edges visible and slight deformation on the top side (hit side).  Don't know if the sprockets have evidence of that- never seen one.  If they were forged, I think they would be trimmed after forging or something like that.  Trimming might leave witness marks on the edges also, possibly less so, especially after deburring and plating.  I agree, pretty hard to make a part look like that with machining. Not an expert here, just someone who worked with manufacturers over the years.  Tommy


----------



## redline1968

Davis built pic for you


----------



## bricycle

fattommy said:


> Carlton, in my experience, a production method for that chainring would be the part is blanked out then coined for the bevels and deburred.  Clearances in the die would probably leave some tearing on the edges visible and slight deformation on the top side (hit side).  Don't know if the sprockets have evidence of that- never seen one.  If they were forged, I think they would be trimmed after forging or something like that.  Trimming might leave witness marks on the edges also, possibly less so, especially after deburring and plating.  I agree, pretty hard to make a part look like that with machining. Not an expert here, just someone who worked with manufacturers over the years.  Tommy




Thanks for your insight.


----------



## bricycle

redline1968 said:


> Davis built pic for you




Sweet, what tag is it wearing?


----------



## hoofhearted

redline1968 ... Dood ..... hates to tell ya, but yours is a repop !!!  
JUST KIDDIN' YA ... you have a VERY NICE ORIGINAL !!!  

fordsnake ... you are correct on all counts !!!  One thing the repops DO NOT HAVE are all the slight imperfections in nearly 
every edge.  Take a close look at redline1968's chainring ... look at all the imperfections in edges ... the edges were intended 
to be true to the curve ... and true to the edge of a straight area ... but they are not -- in an original chainring.  

Look at the cross-bar in the "H" on redline1968's specimen ..... now look at the cross-bar in the posting where I have 2 fotos 
of a modern repop .. and 2 fotos of original equipment.

Look at the waver in the top-edge of those 6, large, negative-space areas.  I am typing specifically about the largest circle in the 
chainring ... underside those hobbed teeth and adjacent to the 6 spokes.

Look how consistant the width of the 6 "spokes" are in the repop ... now, compare that to redline1968's prize.

Also .. fordsnake .. when we are in the field at a swap meet ... on the peep .. and get caught up in the excitement of the moment ... 
it may be very easy to be fooled by a rusty and / or patina-strewn repop .. especially if the repop actually exhibits just a few of those 
"imperfections" that are always cherished in an original.

Here's the point ... if we are searching for an original .. and we are willing to pay $$$ for it ... AND DO NOT WANT TO SPEND HARD-
EARNED $$$ FOR A REPOP H-D CHAINRING ... It Is Important To Be Able To Recognize The Difference !!!  

This is a task that takes time and practice.

...................  patric


----------



## hoofhearted

Closeup of the authentic H-D chainring owned by redline1968 ...........


----------



## redline1968

Sweet..


----------



## chitown

*1911 photos in a 1914 catalog...*



hoofhearted said:


> Chitown ... your 1911, American Machinist publication in this thread is WAY The Bee's Knees !!!
> 
> Thank You ......................  patric





Here is the 1914 Sears publication that shares the same photos (minus the American Machinist tag on the bottom of each one)

From Duke University special collections:


----------



## chitown

Balloontyre said:


> what characteristics of the Chief and Master make you say Excelsior and GWM?




Here is the 1914 Excelsior I think looks like a Chief:





And here is the Deluxe model with the *CCM* (previously ID'ed as Davis) stand on it. 





Excelsior Cycle Co was building Motorcycles for Sears in 1914 (with old 1912 models). If you follow Sears you will see that they originally carried several models of sewing machines from Davis but slowly started offering other models until they stopped completely carrying Davis machines in the late teens. I theorize they did the same with bikes. The only bike that resembles Davis in the later teens catalogs is the Tiger (racer).


----------



## Balloontyre

Chris, 
I can see the similarity based on catalog _drawings only_, especially the 15/16 Chief ads where the bottom bar (as drawn) terminates the seat tube much closer to the top of mast, similar to the 1914 Excelsior ad you posted.

If you revisit post #101 and #102 on this thread, the "volcano" is one of the several frame characteristics that are consistent with the Excelsior bike vs Chief. 

Upper and lower rear fender bridges are to note also, Excelsior are graceful trumpet mouth joints fitting the fork very well, the Davis are somewhat boxy at the joints, crude in comparison.

Something interesting I learned recently in reading the frame construction descriptions of the Chief, they were built internally lugged, flush joint, characteristically different from most Davis built frames.

It would be interesting to know and see if anyone has an original Chief 1915 or 16, with the Excelsior frame characteristics.


----------



## chitown

Balloontyre said:


> Chris,
> I can see the similarity based on catalog _drawings only_, especially the 15/16 Chief ads where the bottom bar (as drawn) terminates the seat tube much closer to the top of mast, similar to the 1914 Excelsior ad you posted.
> 
> If you revisit post #101 and #102 on this thread, the "volcano" is one of the several frame characteristics that are consistent with the Excelsior bike vs Chief.
> 
> Upper and lower rear fender bridges are to note also, Excelsior are graceful trumpet mouth joints fitting the fork very well, the Davis are somewhat boxy at the joints, crude in comparison.
> 
> Something interesting I learned recently in reading the frame construction descriptions of the Chief, they were built internally lugged, flush joint, characteristically different from most Davis built frames.
> 
> It would be interesting to know and see if anyone has an original Chief 1915 or 16, with the Excelsior frame characteristics.




*I am unaware of ANY examples of a 1912-16 Excelsior Cycle Co Chicago IL badged bikes in existence to compare to*. So I am going off of drawings only. The Excelsiors badged Michigan City that I've seen are post 1916. Of which several frames share not only construction techniques, but accessories too to Chief's and HD's. Like the Walter Green International Stamping drop side mud guards that show up on Davis, Harley and Excelsiors. Or the CCM drop stand. There were several companies that specialized in making stands including International Stamping, Wald and several others... Including Excelsior Cycle Co of Chicago in the mid teens. 

The Excelsiors have the flush joint construction instead of volcano or external lugs like Davis.

Some Michigan City Excelsiors:









And a 1923 Michigan City built Elgin (SEARS) 





So they were building for Sears...
but for how long and which models???


----------



## Balloontyre

Notice the volcano on all your sample Excelsior pics, this external joint (for lack of a better word) is not present on the Chief or Davis built bikes. if you visit GaryMc 1915 chief thread, his bike and one other a 1916 are pictured, there top and bottom bars look different from the catalog pics in that he top and bottom bar are distinctly apart where the join a the seat mast. Both bikes are also void the volcano.


----------



## Balloontyre

*Frame Joints*

bike without paint is Michigan City Excelsior, 

compared with Davis built Chief


----------



## chitown

Thank you Ivo for the comparisons on the Excelsior to Chiefs. This is the kind of info we need... and love! 

Again, I have no examples of a 1912-1916 Excelsior so I am relying on trade drawings of the period to compare style of the different manufacturer.

Here is a 1914 Dayton ad to compare lines.






I am still of the belief that Dayton only features are all Davis offered, not this wide range of building styles that meant changing tooling, jigs, lugs, etc... The Dayton flood in 1913 could have been the start of Sears looking for other makers to fill there orders. The Sears Tiger is one frame I say looks like a Davis built bike. Davis built racer bikes were well know in the teens and used by some top racers of the day. So they would have been know for that more than their Motobike frame designs.





I am currently theorizing Sears and Mead both were using multiple frame builders to offer a wide range of style of bikes.

Mead may have ordered racer frames from Horace Huffman just like Sears.





Davis built Mead???

As Patric has stated, more research is needed to draw conclusive statements on who built what for whom and when.


----------



## Wing Your Heel

*HD chainring*


----------



## mike j

Picked up at Copake, not much left but I like it. Is this a Davis built frame? Headbadge missing & chain ring looks to be recently changed. Serial # F46122. Any info. as to year & make, etc. would be appreciated.


----------



## Balloontyre

chitown said:


> Thank you Ivo for the comparisons on the Excelsior to Chiefs. This is the kind of info we need... and love!
> 
> Again, I have no examples of a 1912-1916 Excelsior so I am relying on trade drawings of the period to compare style of the different manufacturer.
> 
> _I'm not doubting the possibility of multiple sources for the Sears bikes,  although Excelsior building the Chief is wild, and would be a new discovery if true. It is possible that the 1916 and earlier  Excelsior bikes did not have the volcano joint, let's take the serial number stamping for bit of evidence, are there other manufacturers that stamped numbers in line with the rotation of the BB bearings? _*Someone reading this thread must have a confirmed 1915 or 16 Chief, can you please share your serial number stamping????*
> 
> 
> I am still of the belief that Dayton only features are all Davis offered, not this wide range of building styles that meant changing tooling, jigs, lugs, etc... The Dayton flood in 1913 could have been the start of Sears looking for other makers to fill there orders. The Sears Tiger is one frame I say looks like a Davis built bike. Davis built racer bikes were well know in the teens and used by some top racers of the day. So they would have been know for that more than their Motobike frame designs.
> 
> _Harley VS other Davis motorbike frames are evidently different in the joint construction. Looking at the Chief  frame construction , all smooth joints, yet another style of frame.
> _
> I am currently theorizing Sears and Mead both were using multiple frame builders to offer a wide range of style of bikes.
> 
> _I agree, this is very evident in the ballooner era especially._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Patric has stated, more research is needed to draw conclusive statements on who built what for whom and when.




Happy Sunday,


----------



## hoofhearted

mike j ............  you've got yourself a Westfield-Built motorbike with trussed, multi-plate fork crown.

A tell for Westfields is the sleeve-lug helping to retain the aft portion of the undertank bar.
Davis did not use a sleeve-lug in their construction of motorbike frames.

Very interesting environment for your foto-shoot -- a quarry ??

.............  patric cafaro


----------



## mike j

Patric, Thanks for the info. & quick response, This forum is a treasure trove of expertise. Not a quarry, just twenty something years of stone collecting. Now my wife want's to move!


----------



## Gary Mc

*1912 Dayton Info*

The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review December 2, 1911





1912 G.W. Shroyer & Co. - Dayton


----------



## hoofhearted

Gary ... Scott Mc has a three-arch Dayton ... maybe he'll post some pics .

Never have seen these images you just posted, Gary !!!  WOW !!!

Thank You !!! .............  patric


----------



## Gary Mc

*1912 Dayton Info Continued......*

and with the Lester Clutch Coaster Brake!!!!!!!!!

The Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review December 30, 1911


----------



## Gary Mc

hoofhearted said:


> Gary ... Scott Mc has a three-arch Dayton ... maybe he'll post some pics .
> 
> Never have seen these images you just posted, Gary !!!  WOW !!!
> 
> Thank You !!! .............  patric





Knew you'd like this & the Lester ad just as much.


----------



## chitown




----------



## bricycle

How long was the Lester made?


----------



## ejlwheels

Anybody got any Lester internal parts?


----------



## Balloontyre

*"The Lester"*

NOS "The Lester" hub, I wonder what components or design was deemed as infringement?


----------



## bricycle

It would be really cool to see them both laying apart side-by-side to compare!


----------



## Balloontyre

bricycle said:


> It would be really cool to see them both laying apart side-by-side to compare!




Ok, I will work on that.


----------



## h.i.

*Davis built?*

Bricycle suggested this might be Davis built? Serial number style matches almost exactly. Serial is 38953-7-1 (last digit could also be a 4, obscured by brazing blobs). There is also an 8 in the center of the bb. Sorry, no photo of the bb.


----------



## bricycle

Balloontyre said:


> Ok, I will work on that.




what would be the comparable brake hub, the "A" hub?


----------



## Gary Mc

Balloontyre said:


> NOS "The Lester" hub, I wonder what components or design was deemed as infringement?




Damn I LOVE that hub, it is a thing of beauty!!!!!!!!


----------



## Gary Mc

bricycle said:


> what would be the comparable brake hub, the "A" hub?




Model A was the only ND coaster brake hub in production at the same time but they held a number of patents for some of their older ones as well.


----------



## chitown

From the Miami Merkel thread: 



dave the wave said:


> the orange one has a atherton,the red one has ND model A









Dave the Wave's Miami motorbike has similar stampings to Davis.

I'm also interested in finding any HP Snyder built motorbikes in the teens. They would most likely have an Atherton hub equipped as that was a Snyder built hub. I'd be happy to see some 20's Snyder bikes also for stampings and construction techniques. 



Balloontyre said:


> ... let's take the serial number stamping for bit of evidence, are there other manufacturers that stamped numbers in line with the rotation of the BB bearings? Someone reading this thread must have a confirmed 1915 or 16 Chief, can you please share your serial number stamping????


----------



## hoofhearted

*Wha ??  How The Heck Did THIS Happen ???*

??????????

??????????

??????????  (wha' ???) + (???) = WHA' ???

Dat's Right ...



... It's Kool !!!

............... patric


----------



## ejlwheels

*On which bike was this front fender used?*

It has the 1" sides.  Identical to my other Davis fenders except that it extends further in the front, just like the 1915-16 Chief flat fenders (the front brace lines up perfectly when placed alongside my flat Chief fender).   It is shown here for reference on a Chief fork.


----------



## hoofhearted

*It's A First Fer Me .............  !!!*

ejlwheels ... have never seen an extended-nose, deep, front fender on any Davis.  However I can think of several 
reasons how it came to be ... 

 1.  It may not be a Davis fender.
 2.  It may be a Miami-Cycle Co. fender.
 3.  It may be made from a Davis REAR fender.
 4.  It may be a Davis product having a very-limited run.
 5.  It may be a Davis product with a running production change of mid to late 1922.
 6.  Other, yet to be determined reason.

More often than not .. on a Davis deep or flat front fender .. the observer may find a small - quarter-inch (+/-) riveted, steel 
button .. just behind the elongated-hole in the front fender .. this hole allows the eyelet screw to pass thru and connect the 
fork with the fender-retaining washer and nut ... sandwiching the fender in between.

The little button acts as an interference measure ... as it cants the part of the fender .. below the rear of the fork-crown, downward .. 
easily-permitting the fender-brace openings to line up with the front axel.

Much more research is indicated before any conclusions can be reached.

.................  patric cafaro

Am editing this message with great regard for information supplied by ejlwheels in entry #200 of this thread 10/30/13.  That entry may clarify 
many things.  THANK YOU TO ejlwheels !!!


----------



## redline1968

Here is a photo of my rear fender on my Davis bike. The brace definitely looks different than mine


----------



## hoofhearted

*Redline1968 And His 1918 H-D .......*

Redline1968 ... thank you for posting some details of your Model 418 H-D !!!

...........  patric


----------



## Balloontyre

hoofhearted said:


> Redline1968 ... thank you for posting some details of your Model 418 H-D !!!
> 
> ...........  patric
> 
> 
> View attachment 120260View attachment 120261View attachment 120262




Patric,
I'm confused (SOP), were the H-D bikes offered in Red?
There also looks to be an oval or circle decal on seat tube, Redline1968 can you show that detail please, thank you.
Ivo


----------



## hoofhearted

Yo .. IVO ... I call redline1968's ride a H-D 'cause it meets the architectural-criteria for being one.  I stayed away from color.
In answer to your question (and one day I will learn how to use that quoting app ... sorry) ... the bicycle looks to be painted 
from a color in the red family ... I don't know wha' th' hay happened ... IVO ... Dood ... I ain't Miss Cleo ... but I try ............

Good ta hear from ya, IVO !!!

...............  patric


----------



## Balloontyre

Rock on Patric, thank you.


----------



## dave the wave

ejlwheels said:


> It has the 1" sides.  Identical to my other Davis fenders except that it extends further in the front, just like the 1915-16 Chief flat fenders (the front brace lines up perfectly when placed alongside my flat Chief fender).   It is shown here for reference on a Chief fork.




can you show us a pic of the top of the fender?


----------



## ejlwheels

One must disregard the fender braces.  They were not on the fender when I got it.
The fender came with a matching rear that was not drilled for a drop stand.  

I don't wish to claim that the fender belongs on a Davis bike.
I simply called it a Davis fender since Davis bikes seem to be the most common application.
I think it is Chitown who refers to these fenders as being made by the Walter Green International Stamping [Co.].  

I don't think the front fender was modified from a rear fender mainly because of the indents at the fork mount location and the 45 degree edge folds at either end...


Top of fender





Side of fender




Front edge inner fold




Rear edge inner fold


----------



## bricycle

I especially like the spider egg sacks!


----------



## hoofhearted

*Mystery Fender ... Possibly A Long, Davis Front Fender*

ejlwheels ... your entry (#200) of this thread clears up a lot of mystery for me, Thank you for posting !!!

...............  patric


----------



## redline1968

hoofhearted said:


> Yo .. IVO ... I call redline1968's ride a H-D 'cause it meets the architectural-criteria for being one.  I stayed away from color.
> In answer to your question (and one day I will learn how to use that quoting app ... sorry) ... the bicycle looks to be painted
> from a color in the red family ... I don't know wha' th' hay happened ... IVO ... Dood ... I ain't Miss Cleo ... but I try ............
> 
> Good ta hear from ya, IVO !!!
> 
> ...............  patric




Thank you.... it is correct. all the parts are hd correct including the badge hole spacing on the frame but its a project. the color on it is actually a red primer and paint? Here is a pic of the decal it's unusual in having the Harley Davidson green.  Again this is a Davis frame that is identically correct for a authentic harley bike I'm building.


----------



## rustyspoke66

redline1968 said:


> Thank you.... it is correct. all the parts are hd correct including the badge hole spacing on the frame but its a project. the color on it is actually a red primer and paint? Here is a pic of the decal




That's what that decal is! I noticed a faint decal on the seat tube on my Dayton but couldn't make it out.


----------



## chitown

redline1968 said:


> but its a project. the color on it is actually a red primer and paint? Here is a pic of the decal




Sorry I'm even more confused, so by project do you mean that some of the parts are not original to the bike? I thought I remembered this bike with the D-A-Y-T-O-N chain ring.


----------



## Balloontyre

*Lets talk chain rings*

Recently there was s discussion on HD chainrings and "hobbing". I cant locate that thread so I'm posting here.
I'm curious about the manufacturing of the D-A-Y-T-O-N chain wheel, it looks to have the same style of cuts and bevels as the H-D ring. 

 In looking at the Chief chain rings, they appear to share these H-D/DAYTON manufacturing hallmarks as well. Further supporting that Davis did build the Chief bicycles.


----------



## bricycle

Balloontyre said:


> Recently there was s discussion on HD chainrings and "hobbing". I cant locate that thread so I'm posting here.
> I'm curious about the manufacturing of the D-A-Y-T-O-N chain wheel, it looks to have the same style of cuts and bevels as the H-D ring.
> 
> In looking at the Chief chain rings, they appear to share these H-D/DAYTON manufacturing hallmarks as well. Further supporting that Davis did build the Chief bicycles.




I was thinking the same thing... how about the BBBBBBB Black Beauty chainwheel?


----------



## hoofhearted

IVO ... type in the word 'hobbed' without those little punk-chew-a-shun deelies.

BBBBBB for Brian ................


----------



## bricycle

Thanks Partic. so that IS a Davis as well?


----------



## hoofhearted

Bri ... don't believe that is a Davis ... however .. Davis DID manufacture The Black Beauty Bicycle 
for Haverford Cycle Co. in 1920 or 1921.  Davis saw fit to use one of those  '20 or '21 
Davis motorbike frames ..........


----------



## redline1968

chitown said:


> Sorry I'm even more confused, so by project do you mean that some of the parts are not original to the bike? I thought I remembered this bike with the D-A-Y-T-O-N chain ring.



Sorry never had a Dayton chain ring. it's Davis not Dayton no bottle cap hole. Term project means needs to be restored. This was in a barn in eastern ore. actually nothing has been changed even the pedals are hd's. Grips are not orig though.


----------



## bricycle

Thanks, see, I learned something today!


----------



## chitown

*so Everybody made Black Beauty bikes????*



hoofhearted said:


> Bri ... don't believe that is a Davis ... however .. Davis DID manufacture The Black Beauty Bicycle
> for Haverford Cycle Co. in 1920 or 1921.  Davis saw fit to use one of those awkward '20 or '21
> Davis motorbike frames ... the ones that looked like they were soaked in A Tub Of Ugly for six weeks ............
> 
> View attachment 120535




Confused as ever.

If Davis made them in '20 and '21 then they would have joined Schwinn and DP Harris/HP Snyder who are documented as producing the Black Beauty for Haverford Cycle. The Schwinn document that shows the Schwinn connection is from 1919-1921. The Rollfast catalog from '30??? shows them as producers of the BB badged bike but without the Haverford affiliation. What evidence is there of Davis producing BB bikes? 





redline1968 said:


> Sorry never had a Dayton chain ring. it's Davis not Dayton no bottle cap hole. Term project means needs to be restored. This was in a barn in eastern ore. actually nothing has been changed even the pedals are hd's. Grips are not orig though.




OK thanks!


----------



## hoofhearted

chitown ... around 1990, I owned a rough, housepainted, Davis-Built Black Beauty Motorbike (w/o tank) .. the frame was 
that UGLY '20-'21 frame ..... it was a beater ... I still have the Davis, heavy-duty truss fork and the badge .. which is very 
nice ... I gave the multiple "B" chainring to Ed Boros of Chicago ... he was beginning to pick up a fair share of BB Badges 
to add to his badge collection.


----------



## chitown

hoofhearted said:


> chitown ... around 1990, I owned a rough, housepainted, Davis-Built Black Beauty Motorbike (w/o tank) .. the frame was
> that UGLY '20-'21 frame ..... it was a beater ... I still have the Davis, heavy-duty truss fork and the badge .. which is very
> nice ... I gave the multiple "B" chainring to Ed Boros of Chicago ... he was beginning to pick up a fair share of BB Badges
> to add to his badge collection.




Sounds like a frankenbike to me.  I can't imagine Ignaz Schwinn happy with sharing his Haverford account with Horace Huffman. However, Black Beauty bikes came in a variety of styles so anything is possible... right? It sounds like many of the jobbers of the day had their pick of frames styles, forks, sprockets, tires, mud guards etc... Unfortunately without concrete evidence like fordsnakes discovery of the Indian/Westfield connection, we are left with many, many cool parts that don't always add up.


----------



## hoofhearted

CHRIS ... it is THAT VERY LABYRINTH that I Love About old bicycles .. and it's the very-same labyrinth that makes me go krazy !!!

..................  patric


----------



## bricycle

hoofhearted said:


> CHRIS ... it is THAT VERY LABYRINTH that I Love About old bicycles .. and it's the very-same labyrinth that makes me go krazy !!!
> 
> ..................  patric




If the bike builders were anything like the early Outboard manufacturers, They did business with anyone and everyone. 1940-42 Mercury's (Keikhaefer Mfg.) who took over Thor motors, had many changes during production. I had a cylinder water jacket (alum) that had broke, was re-welded, re-machined and re-used! Back in the day they didn't throw ANYTHING away!! Times were hard back then, just like the whiskey!


----------



## Nickinator

Like this badge? 




hoofhearted said:


> chitown ... around 1990, I owned a rough, housepainted, Davis-Built Black Beauty Motorbike (w/o tank) .. the frame was
> that UGLY '20-'21 frame ..... it was a beater ... I still have the Davis, heavy-duty truss fork and the badge .. which is very
> nice ... I gave the multiple "B" chainring to Ed Boros of Chicago ... he was beginning to pick up a fair share of BB Badges
> to add to his badge collection.
> 
> View attachment 120581


----------



## chitown

Balloontyre said:


> Notice the volcano on all your sample Excelsior pics, this external joint (for lack of a better word) is not present on the Chief or Davis built bikes. if you visit GaryMc 1915 chief thread, his bike and one other a 1916 are pictured, there top and bottom bars look different from the catalog pics in that he top and bottom bar are distinctly apart where the join a the seat mast. Both bikes are also void the volcano.




Here is an early Mich City Excelsior with flush joints (and International Stamping deep 1" fenders)











1914 Chicago trade show. Excelsior booth pic is the closest thing to a 1915 Chief frame I have ever seen.


----------



## chitown

redline1968 said:


> Sorry never had a Dayton chain ring. it's Davis not Dayton no bottle cap hole. Term project means needs to be restored. This was in a barn in eastern ore. actually nothing has been changed even the pedals are hd's. Grips are not orig though.




Aren't these the same bike?


----------



## Balloontyre

chitown said:


> Aren't these the same bike?




Looks like the same bike from cyber space.
Dun dun dun....


----------



## sqrly

chitown said:


> Aren't these the same bike?




Sure look the same to me.


----------



## hoofhearted

Nickinator ... dood ... that is one very-boss Black Beauty badge !!! Wash it in mild shampoo .. get all the soap residue off with hot 
water followed by rubbing alcohol .. not the green stuff.  A better product is denatured alcohol from the hardware store.  Read all 
cautions on the container.  Resist the urge to polish it out.  There is no paint on that badge.  The badge was at one time part of a 
brass sheet that had been polished on one side and nickel-plated on that one side.  The plating is thin ... very thin.

A silkscreened design was applied >>> anything that you see raised -- once had an asphalt-based, acid-resist screened on the top 
of the polished and newly, nickel-plated brass sheet.  It's possible that fifty or more badge designs were screened at a time.

All metal that was supposed to stay in position was given a coat of the asphalt-based resist.  Any metal that was expected to vacate 
was left exposed to the environment, momentarily.  Before you can say, "Kim Kardashian has a magnificently-plump hiney ... (but that 
isn't going to help her be a wise mother)" ...... that prepared, nickel-plated, brass sheet will be exposed to an acid solution ... and any-
thing that is not covered in the acid-resist ... soon becomes victim to the ravenousness of the acidic predator ... and simply disappears.

In the case of your Black Beauty badge .. a chemical oxidizer was fed onto the front of the badge .. the areas attacked by the acid turned 
black (the effect of the oxidizer) ... the badge was allowed to age for a moment .. rinsed in water and / or a neutralizing solution ... your 
badge was chemically-cleaned to remove the asphalt based, acid-resist .. and finally made ready to be placed on the head-tube of a bicycle.

One day you will want to polish the Black Beauty badge.  Don't do it.  Polishing a badge ALWAYS begins in a quiet, purposeful and Sainted 
Manner ... then .. before a person knows of the horror and heartbreak that can result when a treasured badge is allowed to be manipulated 
by a heavy-handed brute with a Brillo-Pad ...... pardon me, Nick ... I can go on no further ......................


----------



## Nickinator

it helps a ton!  I always want to learn more about how things were made and how to properly clean them.

thank you for that huge bit of info!

Nick.



hoofhearted said:


> Nickinator ... dood ... that is one very-boss Black Beauty badge !!! Wash it in mild shampoo .. get all the soap residue off with hot
> water followed by rubbing alcohol .. not the green stuff.  A better product is denatured alcohol from the hardware store.  Read all
> cautions on the container.  Resist the urge to polish it out.  There is no paint on that badge.  The badge was at one time part of a
> brass sheet that had been polished on one side and nickel-plated on that one side.  The plating is thin ... very thin.
> 
> A silkscreened design was applied >>> anything that you see raised -- once had an asphalt-based, acid-resist screened on the top
> of the polished and newly, nickel-plated brass sheet.  It's possible that fifty or more badge designs were screened at a time.
> 
> All metal that was supposed to stay in position was given a coat of the asphalt-based resist.  Any metal that was expected to vacate
> was left exposed to the environment, momentarily.  Before you can say, "Kim Kardashian has a magnificently-plump hiney ... (but that
> isn't going to help her be a wise mother)" ...... that prepared, nickel-plated, brass sheet has been exposed to an acid solution ... and any-
> thing that is not covered in the acid-resist ... soon becomes victim to the ravenousness of the acidic predator ... and simply disappears.
> 
> In the case of your Black Beauty badge .. a chemical oxidizer was fed onto the front of the badge .. the areas attacked by the acid turned
> black (the effect of the oxidizer) ... the badge was allowed to age for a moment .. rinsed in water and / or a neutralizing solution ... your
> badge was chemically-cleaned to remove the asphalt based, acid-resist .. and finally made ready to be placed on the head-tube of a bicycle.
> 
> One day you will want to polish the Black Beauty badge.  Don't do it.  Polishing a badge ALWAYS begins in a quiet, purposeful and Sainted
> Manner ... then .. before a person knows of the horror and heartbreak that can result when a treasured badge is allowed to be manipulated
> by a heavy-handed brute with a Brillo-Pad ...... pardon me, Nick ... I can go on no further ......................
> 
> View attachment 120673


----------



## redline1968

Balloontyre said:


> Looks like the same bike from cyber space.
> Dun dun dun....




Perceptive of you. Absolutely  Yes and it's going to stay a hd because I have 2 identical Davis frames and this one better.
No trick or treats here. It's a Davis built frame for harley possibly a surplus hd frame.as I said earlier.. My Harley Davidson project all has all the correct parts for a authentic Harley Davidson build... Pic of the other Davis fame damaged with olive paint.


----------



## Balloontyre

chitown said:


> Here is an early Mich City Excelsior with flush joints (and International Stamping deep 1" fenders)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1914 Chicago trade show. Excelsior booth pic is the closest thing to a 1915 Chief frame I have ever seen.



The Excelsior is interesting, it almost appears the top bar terminates into an external joint at seat mast, hard to tell.  Do you know where the bike is? Maybe get some detailed pics.


----------



## redline1968

Here is a few pics of my second frame it's rough but can be restored.one of them is the frame in question..


----------



## Balloontyre

redline1968 said:


> Perceptive of you. Yes and it's going to stay a hd because I have 2 frames and this one better.
> No trick or treats here.




I can't take credit (chitown) for observing that the 2 complete bikes are the same except for the chainring. When I first read your post showing the bike with H-D chainring, you mentioned it being completely original except grips. I was hopeful a new discovery was made to a Red H-D bike.
I'm too naive.


----------



## redline1968

I'm glad you did. I did over state it on the ring. Everything else was on the bike when discovered. Red primer was used on HD. The other frame is a 1918 also with traces of hd paint but needed serious resto.


----------



## hoofhearted

*A Davis-Built Black Beauty From Haverford Cycle Co.  1918*

google search web / images ......


----------



## Nickinator

*black beauty and davis.*

I want to bring up this subject again, Patric posted this picture on page 6 does the paint scheme look dead on to these ads, the first ad has the stripe on the top bar but the second ad has its paint on the bottom bar, any clue to beautys being made







Nick.


----------



## chitown

Nick,

One of the main differences between the frame pictured and the ads are the forks.

They are different in all three examples in fact. 
1. Blue/white frame has heavy duty chief style fork.
2. Traveler BB ad has triple crown but truss rods join at bottom of fork instead of heavy duty which ends in a triangular dropout plate. 
3. Last ad has a solid crown fork AKA Schwinn style.

Basically what I'm saying is just slap that Black Beauty badge on any teens motorbike and you have a good shot at being correct! (half joking half not)


----------



## hoofhearted

..........................





Good Form !!! ......................  patric


----------



## nj_shore

Sent over from pre-1933 --  Just picked up this old Dayton.  Any idea of manufacture year?
::Will be for sale soon::


----------



## Balloontyre

nj_shore said:


> Sent over from pre-1933 --  Just picked up this old Dayton.  Any idea of manufacture year?
> ::Will be for sale soon::
> 
> View attachment 124067
> 
> View attachment 124068



Can you post a clear picture of numbers under bottom bracket, It should help date it.


----------



## nj_shore

The bike has been painted over a few times and the serial is not visible.  

Thinking about putting it in the cabinet and blasting to bare metal.  This is the first bike I've thought about doing this.  I think it's a good candidate considering the condition.  

Someone care to talk me out of it?


----------



## Flat Tire

nj_shore said:


> The bike has been painted over a few times and the serial is not visible.
> 
> Thinking about putting it in the cabinet and blasting to bare metal.  This is the first bike I've thought about doing this.  I think it's a good candidate considering the condition.
> 
> Someone care to talk me out of it?




I wouldnt blast it if yer gonna sell it......just sandpaper some paint off to show the serial number and that will give the year.......does it have a headbadge?


----------



## nj_shore

No Headbadge--  Will get the serial tonight


----------



## nj_shore

Got down to the serial.  I didn't have any white out to bring out the numbers but had some ink on it.  
Serial (as I can tell)....
Before and after pictures...

6
130
153928


----------



## Balloontyre

nj_shore , I'm thinkin 1916 possibly 17


----------



## hoofhearted

nj_shore ... The single "6" is a mystery to me as this is where Davis placed their Model-Year info.  

The ride is a 1917 or later .. as "told" by the pinching in of the seat stays just above the fender bridge.
That pinched-in feature was used on the Dayton-Models ONLY ... 1917 thru 1922 (+ / -).

The mystery to me is the "6" ... which should be a "7" for 1917 (because of the pinched-in upper seat stays). 

IS IT POSSIBLE THE BICYCLE IS A 1919 ... WITH THE "6" STAMPING NOTHING MORE THAN AN UP-SIDE-DOWN "9" ???

The extra numbers ... 130 ... are seldom-seen stampings ... but they do appear infrequently on Dayton and DAVIS rides.
I do not know their meaning.

...............................  patric


----------



## Balloontyre

*Early Chief*



chitown said:


> Here is an early Mich City Excelsior with flush joints (and International Stamping deep 1" fenders)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1914 Chicago trade show. Excelsior booth pic is the closest thing to a 1915 Chief frame I have ever seen.



This Chief has a very similar frame to The Excelsior. The Chief has a distinct seam where the top bar nears the seat mast same as the Excelsior


----------



## chitown

Balloontyre said:


> This Chief has a very similar frame to The Excelsior. The Chief has a distinct seam where the top bar nears the seat mast same as the Excelsior




So are you on _*Team Excelsior*_ now? I know it's a small team but I think we have a chance against the Team Davis folks, who although they are a likeable bunch... their days in the spotlight are fading! What with Team Westfield winning the Indian bicycles battle and all.

*Chief Chitown*


----------



## hoofhearted

O-kay Chief Chitown ... looks like yer callin' out the good folks on Team Davis ... 
you and yer team ain't seen nuthin', yet !!

Some of us are still doin' plenty o' research on them Chief bicycles .. and other 
rides built for Sear's by Davis ... and we ain't begun to expand yer knowledge 
of them H-D Military Bicycles of 1918 .. Davis-Built ... just like the H-D Exec's 
demanded.

Fact is .. we're so durn busy researchin' what's what .. that we ain't even touched 
on the National .. the Dixie Flyer ..the LaFrance .. the Snell .. the Yale .. or any 
other Davis-Built Transportation Machine !!  But .. we got the whole future to do 
just that ..... 

............  patric


----------



## Balloontyre

chitown said:


> So are you on _*Team Excelsior*_ now? I know it's a small team but I think we have a chance against the Team Davis folks, who although they are a likeable bunch... their days in the spotlight are fading! What with Team Westfield winning the Indian bicycles battle and all.
> 
> *Chief Chitown*



Cant say I'm on any team except the anti-red team. I am waiting for permission to see the serial number on this bike behind glass, that will tell the rest of the story. Meanwhile we can study some of the details of the bike.



Has anyone seen a dropstand like that before?


----------



## hoofhearted

Balloontyre ... have never seen a dropstand like THAT one.

That ride must be special to the owner ... it's behind glass.

..........  patric


----------



## chitown

*1919 ad*


----------



## chitown

*1920 Davis Line*


----------



## chitown

*1921 Yale line*


----------



## hoofhearted

*Chitown ... thank you for posting that Yale Literature.*

Also, chitown, would you please re-post the ad for the stamping company 
that made those deep, dropside fenders for Davis ?  Thanks ....

............  patric








View attachment 129786View attachment 129787


----------



## ejlwheels

*Model 172 stamped on the bottom bracket…*











*For Daytons, 1920 appears to be the "17_" series.  *







*The 1919 Dayton "16_" series Model 162?*





I have one with 162 on the bottom bracket. I now feel more confident that it is a 1919 model, since it has a "9" on it, since 162 is not a model offered in 1920 and since it seems logical that the 1919 models would have had the same sequence as the 1920 models but with a "6" where the "7" is.

In post #81 (page 9) of this thread, Flat Tire referenced 2 other bikes with the 9 and 162 on the bottom brackets.  

*Will someone please post 1919 model year Dayton literature with model numbers?!!*



In response to post #s *239* & *241* in this thread, I now speculate that *nj_shore*'s bottom bracket stamping may indicate that his frame is a Model 130 Dayton Roadster from 1916…


*using the 1920 line up above as a guide and working backwards:*

1916: 130, 131, 132, 133,...
1917: 140, 141, 142, 143,...
1918: 150, 151, 152, 153,...
1919: 160, 161, 162, 163,... 
1920: 170, 171, 172, 173,…



*The 1920 Model 170 Dayton Roadster*


----------



## chitown

Nice Work ejlwheels!!!

Here are the 1919 offerings. Due to War Industries Board there were only 4 Models offered. Models 160, 161, 162 & 167


----------



## chitown

ejlwheels said:


> *using the 1920 line up above as a guide and working backwards:*
> 
> 1916: 130, 131, 132, 133,...
> 1917: 140, 141, 142, 143,...
> 1918: 150, 151, 152, 153,...
> 1919: 160, 161, 162, 163,...
> 1920: 170, 171, 172, 173,…




The Dayton lines have "1" as the starting number. 

The Yale line of Davis bikes start with a "5"

*1918 Yale Models*
518-Roadster
528-Ladies Roadster
538-Bulldog Motorbike
548-Champion Racer
558-Boys Roadster
568-Girls Roadster
578-Yale Bikeabout


*1920 Yale Models:*
510
520
530
540
550
560
570

*1921 Yale Models*
521
531
541
551
571

The Snell line begins with "3"

*1920 Snell*
320
330
340
350
360
370


----------



## ejlwheels

Here is a _speculative_ _*Dayton*_ model # by year chart _in progress…_

The Arch-Truss is model 12_*5*_ in 1912
while it is 17_*4*_ in 1920.





so I have assumed that model #s were put on hold or recycled for war years 1916-1918.
That might explain why 1919 models start with 16 and and 1920 models start with 17, which should have been for 1916 and 1917 respectively?

*Bold numbers are documented*


----------



## chitown

*1918 shows lugged frame*


----------



## bricycle

...Ah Ha!....


----------



## redline1968

Wizzer down.


----------



## bike

*stop*



redline1968 said:


> Here are some pics of a bike I found in a barn for a 100 bucks. I think it's a Davis made. Called joes special from Portland Oregon.




and put that whizzer down!


----------



## hoofhearted

The Gentleman's Light Roadster is simply the Racer equipped with Roadster gear.


----------



## ejlwheels

*Note:  *

Not all Davis-made frames have model numbers stamped into the bottom bracket.  I am no expert.  

Many of the bottom brackets documented in this thread (including my Davis-made Sears bikes: 1 Chief, 1 Peerless, 1 Napolean), have wheel-alligned serial numbers (and sometimes possible year stamps) with no model number stampings.

Perhaps it would be safe to say that Davis frames made to be sold as non-Davis brands (i.e. sold by Sears) will not have model numbers.

More model numbers from years/catalogs/ads (and more bottom bracket documentation) would help flesh out charts.


----------



## hoofhearted

*ejlwheels* your Davis Bottom Bracket Discovery is *wonderful* ... and 
i agree with you .. more model numbers from years / catalogs / ads ... 
would be appreciated and useful.

Thanks for sharing _that_ discovery.

.........  patric


----------



## ejlwheels

It looks like these are the same frames and everything except the lighting equipment.  

I have the first ad_* now *_marked as 1922 and the second as 1920 (dates assigned by *Balloontyre*).
_If the second ad is from 1920, the frame would have been assembled by Davis._

Look at the price difference.  I looked in some catalogs from around 1920 and lamp and battery sets were about $5.00.
Why the big swing?

*1922*





*1920*


----------



## Balloontyre

ejlwheels said:


> It looks like these are the same frames and everything except the lighting equipment (frames assembled by Shelby from Davis parts).
> 
> I have the first ad marked as 1922 and the second as 1923 (dates assigned by ?).
> 
> But look at the price difference.
> 
> I looked in some catalogs from around 1920 and lamp and battery sets were about $5.00.



I think those were my scans originally, The second ad is actually 1920 ($58.45), first ad is 22.


----------



## Balloontyre

*1921 AD,  Price drop*

Interesting the nearly $20 price difference in 1921


----------



## ejlwheels

Bicycles apparently were not selling very well in 1920-21.
Haverford/Black Beauty folded in 1920 and Davis folded in 1922...


----------



## hoofhearted

*IVO ... thanks, again for letting me use the ad you sent.* Attached is the ad 
with edited, and more-appropriate text added.

..............  patric


----------



## chitown

ejlwheels said:


> Look at the price difference.  I looked in some catalogs from around 1920 and lamp and battery sets were about $5.00.  Why the big swing?




*Depression of 1920–21*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Depression of 1920–21 was an extremely sharp deflationary recession in the United States, shortly after the end of World War I. It lasted from January 1920 to July 1921. The extent of the deflation was not only large, but large relative to the accompanying decline in real product.

A range of factors have been identified contributing to the depression, many relating to adjustments in the economy following the end of World War I. There was a brief Post-World War I recession immediately following the end of the war which lasted for 7 months. The economy started to grow, though it had not yet completed all the adjustments in shifting from a wartime to a peacetime economy. Factors identified as potentially contributing to the downturn include: returning troops which created a surge in the civilian labor force, a decline in labor union strife, changes in fiscal and monetary policy, and changes in price expectations.

Following the end of the Depression of 1920–21, the Roaring Twenties brought a period of economic prosperity.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Good Stuff, chitown ....*

..........  p.


----------



## skindel

*davis pics*

heres my pics as identified by Patrick in an earlier posting


----------



## MTGeorge

Where can I find info and pics from the early HD catalogs?  I have found a collector who sold his place and is selling of all of his old motorcycles and bikes.  I am headed there this weekend to pick up a couple of Silver Kings but among other things he mentioned that he has an early Harley Davidson bicycle.  He said he thinks it is a 1919 and that it has the HD sprocket and headbadge but he suspects the bars are not original.  I am trying to educate my self as much as possible before heading up there.  The sprocket info has been helpful but are there any other dead giveaways regarding originality?


----------



## Balloontyre

MTGeorge said:


> Where can I find info and pics from the early HD catalogs?  I have found a collector who sold his place and is selling of all of his old motorcycles and bikes.  I am headed there this weekend to pick up a couple of Silver Kings but among other things he mentioned that he has an early Harley Davidson bicycle.  He said he thinks it is a 1919 and that it has the HD sprocket and headbadge but he suspects the bars are not original.  I am trying to educate my self as much as possible before heading up there.  The sprocket info has been helpful but are there any other dead giveaways regarding originality?



This thread is great. Lots of variables of "tells" depending on year and model.
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?20560-Show-your-Davis-built-bicycles

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?51692-Harley-Davidson-bicycle-ads-and-articles


----------



## Balloontyre

Coupla HD's.


----------



## rustyspoke66

So my crusty Chief looks to be Davis built. Serial # 169780 with a 7 above.


----------



## willbill

Hello, first post..I've enjoyed reading the thread, lots of info...thanks too all.I have owned this davis/yale close to 30 yrs...sorry for crappy pic..first time doing the attachment thingie..anyway, any idea of value of this??? Thanks much!!  Willbill


----------



## hoofhearted

*Willbill ... *glad you attached a foto or two ... if the machine is a Davis Racer .. it will have 
7/8" outside-diameter tubing at the top tube .. the down tube AND the seat mast ... there will be 
lug fittings everywhere .. including the seat post cluster.  *ONLY THE RACER HAS 7/8-INCH 
TUBING in the front triangle of a diamond-frame Davis.*

Your fork does not look like a Davis Racer Fork .. the racer's fork has a unique, forged, single-piece 
crown ... not the very-common honey-comb pattern used by very many manufacturers back then.

Let's take a peep at an H-D Racer from the same manufacturer and era (this Racer has factory-equipped 
shallow fenders .. an option at the time).  Notice the 7/8-inch main, frame tubes AND the correct, Racing 
Fork ... this model is designed as a Track-Racer ... notice the proximity of the front of the rear tire to the 
rear of the lower, seat-mast ... wheelbase --- 41-inches --- quick steering ... Daddy Like !!!

Look ... i do not feel comfortable stating a value for the whole bicycle .. and if i did .. it would only be my 
opinion.  I will state values that i would offer to you .. for specific parts.  Make no mistake .. i am NOT in 
the market for this machine .. as i collect motorcycle named / badged bicycles manufactured during the 
time the counter-part motorcycle was manufactured.  (Beautiful as one may be .. i have no use for a 1918 
Flying Merkel Bicycle .. the last production-year of the F-M Motorcycle being 1917.)

FRAME .....................................................   if Racer ..........  $400
FORK   .......................................................   if Racer ..........  $250
YALE CHAINRING .......................................  nice teeth .......  $200
YALE BADGE   ..............................................  no blems  ........  $300

Because of the lack of clarity in the fotos .. i am not stating a value for any other part of this machine.

In closing .. keep in mind that opinions are like butt-cheeks ... TWO is a Godly-Amount ... but a third looks silly on a banana seat.

..........................  patric cafaro

















==========================================================================================
==========================================================================================


----------



## willbill

Thank you for your detailed and though responce.i've  really enjoyed this info..as stated, owned since the 80's/ and used to take it on charity rides here in charlotte..anyway..I've discovered the for sale section ...as I have been layed off work, so time to lighten the load...a few pics taken tonite with phone...Thanks again for responding ...trying to figure out the pms on this little phone...
                                                                                                                      Regards...william


----------



## Blackout

*Ivorine*

bought this last year and from another post seems to be 1915-16 davis built, questioned my sanity after I got it home with all the tar,varnish or whatever was on it but finally got it cleaned up, need a few parts yet.


----------



## bricycle

1915-17  Very Yummy.........trade?    yum, slobber, drool, pant......


----------



## bricycle

More pix to calm my fix!!!!!!!


----------



## fat tire trader

crash said:


> bought this last year and from another post seems to be 1915-16 davis built, questioned my sanity after I got it home with all the tar,varnish or whatever was on it but finally got it cleaned up, need a few parts yet.




Is this sprocket a "Davis" sprocket? I have one that I have been thinking about putting on my 1918? Racycle until I find the right sprocket. I think that I need the sprocket with the "R"s.


----------



## Blackout

bricycle said:


> 1915-17  Very Yummy.........trade?    yum, slobber, drool, pant......






bricycle said:


> More pix to calm my fix!!!!!!!




Thanks Bri, have to take some more pix. I never realized the drop stand was painted same color as frame till I started cleaning it little bonus. 

fattiretrader that's one question I have also if this is the original chain ring to this bike as I do not know??


----------



## hoofhearted

*fat tire trader AND crash ... that six-spoke chainring with six, crank-drive-pin, drive holes IS a Davis sprocket ... 
the sprocket shows up on the Napoleon .. the Snell .. the Dayton Military Bicycle .. and a few others.*

.........  patric


----------



## Blackout

*Thanks*



hoofhearted said:


> *fat tire trader AND crash ... that six-spoke chainring with six, crank-drive-pin, drive holes IS a Davis sprocket ...
> the sprocket shows up on the Napoleon .. the Snell .. the Dayton Military Bicycle .. and a few others.*
> 
> .........  patric
> 
> 
> Thanks Patric for that info
> have to get my needed items for this bike in the wanted section
> shameless plug here crank and drop stand clip needed


----------



## dave the wave

crash said:


> bought this last year and from another post seems to be 1915-16 davis built, questioned my sanity after I got it home with all the tar,varnish or whatever was on it but finally got it cleaned up, need a few parts yet.




I think the bike cleaned up very nicely!!Great Job!! its the same bike as my Arrow.


----------



## willswares1220

She cleaned up nicely! 
What type of cleaning process did you use on the paint?


----------



## Iverider

dave the wave said:


> I think the bike cleaned up very nicely!!Great Job!! its the same bike as my Arrow.




I love this bike.

The previously posted one ain't so bad neither.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Oh ... that i had thought about the outcome .........*

...............  patric








============================================================================================
============================================================================================


----------



## fat tire trader

hoofhearted said:


> *Oh ... that i had thought about the outcome .........*
> 
> ...............  patric
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 139865
> 
> 
> ============================================================================================
> ============================================================================================



The paint job on that frame, with the spears coming from the bottom bracket, reminds me of a frame that I have been trying to identify. The last suggestion that I got from Carlton is that it may be a Pattee...
You can see it here
http://www.fattiretrading.com/1906mystery.html
I have not seen very many bikes that have spears coming from the bb.


----------



## fat tire trader

Its hard to tell in the picture. Does the Davis frame have a triple plate crown?


----------



## bricycle

dave the wave said:


> I think the bike cleaned up very nicely!!Great Job!! its the same bike as my Arrow.




...me and my Arrow..... good song and cartoon/movie
Love the Arrow!!!!!!


----------



## hoofhearted

fat tire trader said:


> The paint job on that frame, with the spears coming from the bottom bracket, reminds me of a frame that I have been trying to identify. The last suggestion that I got from Carlton is that it may be a Pattee...
> I have not seen very many bikes that have spears coming from the bb.




*Chris .. fat tire trader ... your Pattee (?) has remarkable architecture ..... if the tire bottoms were lined up parallel 
with the foto edge .. would that top bar still appear to be slanting downward in such an aggressive manner ??

Also ... i totally love that extreme, headtube angle .....  that machine sure puts the Ram in the Ram A Lamma Ding Dong !!!

Now .. what were you saying about "spears" ??

(my memory beginning to re-focus) .. (all external sounds emanating from real world beginning to gain in volume) .. (whisper-mode now 'off') ...
*

Chris ... not all .. but a few of the Davis-Built bicycles have that feature .. the spears on seat-mast and downtube, just above the bottom bracket.

That Pattee (?) of yours is beautiful to behold ........

........ patric







==============================================================================================
==============================================================================================


----------



## hoofhearted

fat tire trader said:


> Its hard to tell in the picture. Does the Davis frame have a triple plate crown?





*Chris ... fat tire trader .... it IS hard to ID that fork crown in this pic ... the fork sports the standard Davis-Built, three-plate 
crown, arranged in a honey-comb design ... i may be wrong .. but i believe some folks refer to this as an "Orient"-Type ...... 

i am open to correction .......*

Sorry .. no foto .....

...........  patric 


===========================================================================================
===========================================================================================


----------



## hoofhearted

crash said:


> ... crank and drop stand clip needed  (for Davis-Built)




*crash ... contact Scott McCaskey in the manner he prefers to be contacted ... Scott had some absolutely-correct 
reproductions of Davis-Built Drop-Stand Clips made a while ago ... beautiful to behold .. they exhibit a high-degree 
of craftsmanship .. made of hardened / tempered spring steel .. nickel plated ..... if you do not like the polished 
nickel .. there are chemical oxidizers on the market to darken that nickel down ...........*

....................  patric


=============================================================================================
=============================================================================================


----------



## fat tire trader

Hi Patric,
I took the photos of the bike a long time ago. I now have a much superior 42 mega pixel camera. I'll take new photos of it when it stops raining.
Thanks,
Chris


----------



## hoofhearted

fat tire trader said:


> Hi Patric,
> I took the photos of the bike a long time ago. I now have a much superior 42 mega pixel camera. I'll take new photos of it when it stops raining.
> Thanks,
> Chris




*Excellent, Chris !!  Can't wait to see this JEWEL !!!*

........  patric

=============================================================================================
=============================================================================================


----------



## Blackout

dave the wave said:


> I think the bike cleaned up very nicely!!Great Job!! its the same bike as my Arrow.




dave the wave--that's a awesome color combo liken that Alot



willswares1220 said:


> She cleaned up nicely!
> What type of cleaning process did you use on the paint?




On this one with all the tar first wiped down with gas(didn't have kerosene on hand) then with what seemed like old varnish on it carefully used easy off oven cleaner only thing that would cut thru it fairly easy BUT taped off what was left of all the darts and fender strips or that stuff would have wiped them completely off easily as they are so thin with paint, have to be so careful using that stuff on old paint and need to test in a small area first(sometimes it will take the original paint off easy) and work slowly not leaving it on long at all 10-15 seconds or so depending then wiping it down with a wet rag then rinsing off. never sprayed it on the tape either used a little on a rag to work around that, also use a white terry cloth so you know what color is coming off see original color stop and figure something else out. 



hoofhearted said:


> *crash ... contact Scott McCaskey in the manner he prefers to be contacted ... Scott had some absolutely-correct
> reproductions of Davis-Built Drop-Stand Clips made a while ago ... beautiful to behold .. they exhibit a high-degree
> of craftsmanship .. made of hardened / tempered spring steel .. nickel plated ..... if you do not like the polished
> nickel .. there are chemical oxidizers on the market to darken that nickel down ...........*
> 
> ....................  patric
> 
> 
> Thanks again Patric will contact him


----------



## kingfish254

*1918 Harley Davis-son*

First off I want to thank Patric and everyone else that has contributed to the wealth of knowledge in this thread!!!!! You guys rock!

Here is my Davis built Harley.  You can follow my thread here: http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?54878-1918-Harley-Davis-son&p=326494&posted=1#post326494

Spray bombed when I bought it.




Here it is so far after removing the first layer of spray paint.







Here is the serial number 
D above 657220


----------



## kingfish254

*1919 Harley Bike Ad*

Just found this neat Harley ad from 1919


----------



## wspeid

I notice most of our Davis bikes are missing pedals (the blocks on mine are largely petrified lumps of black friction tape).  I didn't find anything in the literature documenting what pedals went on the 1919 Dayton and similar year bikes.  If I wanted to swap out the pedal blocks for something more complete, any idea what might work best? 

Thanks.


----------



## hoofhearted

*BILL .. (wspeid) ... go to Nostalgic.net ... when there .. refer to Restoring A 1918 Harley-Davidson Bicycle ... Chapter 8 .. Pedals ........

also .. peep this 1920 Dayton Catalog (from Nostalgic.net) ... BTW .. those pedal blocks don't always hafta be white.*


..........  patric








=============================================================================================
=============================================================================================

*BILL ... just responded to your PM ... 5:30 pm ---  you're very welcome !!*

..........  patric


----------



## coin1812

*Davis made Mead*

Hi all. Thoughts on this one?


----------



## coin1812

*Davis made Mead?*

Few more photos


----------



## hoofhearted

coin1812 said:


> Hi all. Thoughts on this one?





*coin1812 ... am not convinced your machine is a Davis.  How about some fotos 
of the bottom of the bottom bracket.*


thanks ...... 

... patric


================================================================
================================================================


----------



## coin1812

Here are a couple photos. Who else attached the truss rods directly to the fork? Thanks


----------



## hoofhearted

coin1812 said:


> Here are a couple photos. Who else attached the truss rods directly to the fork? Thanks




*coin1812 ... Davis machines have their numbers placed very-close to the crank cups and run in the same direction 
as the wheel layout.  These numbers can be located near either cup.  Very often there is an isolated single number ... 
this number denotes the model-year.

By the late teens ... an extra set of numbers may appear.   More on this when I understand the purpose of this extra set.  
Some CABEr may have some insight.

The unknown manufacturer that built your machine ... in addition to The Excelsior Cycle Co. in Michigan City, Indiana ... 
early-teen's era Schwinn-built of Chicago, Illinois ... Miami Cycle & Manuf. Co. in Middletown, Ohio ... The Davis Sewing 
Machine Co.  in Dayton, Ohio ...  are the companies that come to mind .. that have the truss rods attached directly to 
the fork.  There are probably others .. but none that I can name at this time.*

Thank you for those fotos, coin1812 ....

...........  patric cafaro






=============================================================================================
=============================================================================================


----------



## chitown

*H-D Proof!!!*








*H-D and Davis together in print!* The timing of this ad is interesting also. Davis Sewing Machine was sold by the Huffmans in June of 1922 from what I've found. A July 6th trade magazine has Huffman Mfg forming to manufacture bicycles. In August Huffman Mfg sold it's manufacturing equipment to Excelsior Cycle co and agreed to not produce bicycles for 5 years. Just after the Huffmans are out of the picture Davis has ads showing H-D as part of the line of bikes made. Davis shortly afterwards filed for bankruptcy. A story of stock manipulation emerges from a 1995 Dayton newpaper story:

http://www.daytonhistorybooks.com/youngindustrialist.html

The Huffman family sold the business early in the 1920s to a man in the East for about $1 million, Webster told McNees. The new owner hired a company to redesign the plant, which had grown to about 20 buildings, and issued new stock in the company. Hearsay had it that the stock was inflated eight to one and sold by a brokerage. Then the new owner took bankruptcy. He paid $1 million for the company, issued $8 million in stock, and sold half of it. "That's $3 million in profit," said Webster. `That was how the old railroad barons had made fortunes on the railroads."


----------



## chitown

*March 1922*



chitown said:


> Hearsay had it that the stock was inflated eight to one and sold by a brokerage.


----------



## chitown

*Planned failure...*

Looks like some should have read this article in 1920 warning of the unproven hard sale tactics of Dubiske & co. 

Dubiske forced a sale without the client being able to investigate for themselves the stock offered. Referred to as the "one interview" system of selling.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Chitown ... here is an impossible to find DAVIS badge, issue sometime in late 1922 ... 
just a few months before Davis shut the doors on bicycle production.  It is listed as a 
brand in your 1922 Davis sales document.  The only other one i have seen is in the 
collection of Scott McCaskey.

Stamped copper with bottlecap feature.

............  patric


*





=================================================================================
=================================================================================


----------



## jkent

ejlwheels said:


> *Model 172 stamped on the bottom bracket…*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *For Daytons, 1920 appears to be the "17_" series.  *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The 1919 Dayton "16_" series Model 162?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have one with 162 on the bottom bracket. I now feel more confident that it is a 1919 model, since it has a "9" on it, since 162 is not a model offered in 1920 and since it seems logical that the 1919 models would have had the same sequence as the 1920 models but with a "6" where the "7" is.
> 
> In post #81 (page 9) of this thread, Flat Tire referenced 2 other bikes with the 9 and 162 on the bottom brackets.
> 
> *Will someone please post 1919 model year Dayton literature with model numbers?!!*
> 
> 
> 
> In response to post #s *239* & *241* in this thread, I now speculate that *nj_shore*'s bottom bracket stamping may indicate that his frame is a Model 130 Dayton Roadster from 1916…
> 
> 
> *using the 1920 line up above as a guide and working backwards:*
> 
> 1916: 130, 131, 132, 133,...
> 1917: 140, 141, 142, 143,...
> 1918: 150, 151, 152, 153,...
> 1919: 160, 161, 162, 163,...
> 1920: 170, 171, 172, 173,…
> 
> 
> 
> *The 1920 Model 170 Dayton Roadster*




So would a model 120 be a 1915 Roadster?


----------



## jkent

Does anyone have a front fender to match the profile of the rear fender on this Dayton?


----------



## hoofhearted

*Single Rail Davis*



jkent said:


> Does anyone have a front fender to match the profile of the rear fender on this Dayton?





*Joseph ... that is not a Davis fender .. peep the 2 ridges at the top-flat.  I got 
no idea what year that machine is .. but i do like the look of shallow fenders.  
Look for shallow fenders from Davis, Miami, Schwinn and others that are not 
manufacturer-specific like Iver Johnson or Emblem.*


....... patric



=================== 
===================


----------



## bricycle

hoofhearted said:


> *Joseph ... that is not a Davis fender .. peep the 2 ridges at the top-flat.  I got
> no idea what year that machine is .. but i do like the look of shallow fenders.
> Look for shallow fenders from Davis, Miami, Schwinn and others that are not
> manufacturer-specific like Iver Johnson or Emblem.*
> 
> 
> ....... patric
> 
> 
> 
> ===================
> ===================




...my Hawthorne had ridges like that....


----------



## hoofhearted

bricycle said:


> ...my Hawthorne had ridges like that....






*Bri ... what was the parent-company of your Hawthorne ?*

Thanks ... 

..............  patric




============
============


----------



## jkent

I found this thanks to Scott M. 
April 28, 1914 
Shows the Model 120 
But the model 120 has no fenders at all.
What are your thoughts? Flat fenders or No Fenders?


----------



## hoofhearted

jkent said:


> I found this thanks to Scott M.
> April 28, 1914
> Shows the Model 120
> But the model 120 has no fenders at all.
> What are your thoughts? Flat fenders or No Fenders ?





*No Fenders At All.*



=========
=========


----------



## bricycle

hoofhearted said:


> *Bri ... what was the parent-company of your Hawthorne ?*
> 
> Thanks ...
> 
> ..............  patric
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ============
> ============




It was an orphan..no parents.   sorry, do not know...


----------



## hoofhearted

bricycle said:


> It was an orphan..no parents.   sorry, do not know...





*Thank you, Bri ...*



.... p.



============
============


----------



## ejlwheels

I think that sort of 45 degree "A" shaped rear fender came on Emblem and Pierce bikes.
Both made in Angola, NY.

EMBLEM:











PIERCE:


----------



## ejlwheels

Here is a revised "Dayton" Model number speculation.





Model numbers in bold black are documented by ads and/or catalog pics




Because there is now an ad showing Model 120 in 1914 (and I have previously seen Model 125 in 1912)









It now seems evident that they used *12x* for at least 1912 - 1914.



Also, _nj_shore_ had previously posted pics (this thread, page 24) of a Roadster with a possible year number "6"  and an apparent model # "130" … 130 is consistent with Roadster model # format for documented years 

1914=120
1919=160
1920=170


----------



## hoofhearted

ejlwheels said:


> Here is a revised "Dayton" Model number speculation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Model numbers in bold black are documented by ads and/or catalog pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because there is now an ad showing Model 120 in 1914 (and I have previously seen Model 125 in 1912)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It now seems evident that they used *12x* for at least 1912 - 1914.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, _nj_shore_ had previously posted pics (this thread, page 24) of a Roadster with a possible year number "6"  and an apparent model # "130" … 130 is consistent with Roadster model # format for documented years
> 
> 1914=120
> 1919=160
> 1920=170





*ejlwheels ... looks like someone has been doin' some research !!!

Very proud of you for your efforts .. and i see no reason to dispute.

I believe we can use your documentation 'til it is disputed and the dispute 
is supported with documentation like you have researched.

GOOD FORM ... am waaay impressed with your manner and findings.*


....... patric cafaro


============
============


----------



## Jarod24

*Need some help Identifying a couple frames!*

Picked the red one up yesterday and the other bare frame I picked up off here a couple months back. I know nothing is original on the red one. The code is on the reads LB then 008?3, the B is backwards and cant make out one of the numbers. From the forum and pics I've been looking through, the Davis built frames look to be the closes match to both the frames. The bare metal frame has an Elgin badge im not sure if it is original.  Any help is appreciated. Thanks 





















Bare frame:


----------



## ejlwheels

both of those frames look a somewhat like Michigan City, Excelsior.


----------



## hoofhearted

ejlwheels said:


> both of those frames look a somewhat like Michigan City, Excelsior.





*Am in agreement with you, ejlwheels.

Please peep these fotos .....*

...........  patric















=========================================================================
=========================================================================


----------



## Jarod24

*Thanks for the info you guys!*

So what were most of these bikes badged as? Do you know the years they were manufactured? Thanks


----------



## hoofhearted

Jarod24 said:


> So what were most of these bikes badged as? Do you know the years they were manufactured? Thanks





*Jarod24 ... please refer to the numerous Excelsior threads within The CABE for waaay-more information.

Below are some badges ... the stamped-variety are early, pre-balloon ... the acid-etch variety are a wee-bit later ... 
BUT also extend into the balloon-tire era.*


..............  patric































============================================================
============================================================


----------



## bricycle

now I'm really confused....too many variables....


----------



## hoofhearted

bricycle said:


> now I'm really confused....too many variables....






*Bri ... check out CABE thread >>> Excelsior Bicycles posted by chitown .. 1-27-13.*


........  patric

You may still be confused, but not as badly.



===================================
===================================


----------



## bricycle

hoofhearted said:


> *Bri ... check out CABE thread >>> Excelsior Bicycles posted by chitown .. 1-27-13.*
> 
> 
> ........  patric
> 
> You may still be confused, but not as badly.
> 
> 
> 
> ===================================
> ===================================




...didn't these builders realize these would become collectible some day??? ...lol!


----------



## Jarod24

Hey hoof thanks for all the help, appreciate it.


----------



## hoofhearted

Jarod24 said:


> Hey hoof thanks for all the help, appreciate it.





*Jarod24 ... you are very welcome !!*

..... patric


============================
============================


----------



## hoofhearted

*DAVIS "Lester" .. and .. NEW DEPARTURE "Model-A" Rear Hubs Used On Davis-Builts ....*

*CABE-Member >> geosbike << e-m'd these fotos to me, with permission to post.*

THANK YOU - George !!


..........  patric




















=======================================
=======================================


----------



## 10~18kustoms

*Confusing Dayton from Kansas*

​Glad this thread is still alive and working because I just picked up a Dayton from a barn just outside of Salina KS and need some help. I’ve read all 33 pages of this thread twice now and I am still confused as to the date on this one, and have many other questions.  About the only thing I am sure of is that it does not have the pinched seat stays so probably pre 1917?  The adjusters are the Dayton style, and the head badge is the pop bottle cap style.  I am not sure about the chain ring, or why it is not the Dayton script style, possibly replaced at some point?  I have never seen this style chain ring before?  The rear hub is a Morrow, or at least the brake arm is (I didn't think they started till the 30s)?  And to really add to the confusion, it appears to have two sets of serial numbers, and the bottom bracket is pretty crusty so reading all the numbers is hard.  There is a larger but crudely stamped 41972 that runs across the bottom bracket like most other manufactures used.  I am thinking this may have been a re-stamp from a stolen bike, or something?  The other numbers and letter “A”s that do run the way it looks that most Davis numbers ran are very hard to read.  But from the things I read about date of manufacture and year dating they don’t make since unless it’s a 1911 or 1921? Here are all the pictures I took the other day when I first got it home.  Hope you can help me ID it and figure out what is right and wrong on it.  Davis style numbers and letters on bottom bracket are hard to read and the pictures didn’t turn out to good.  Here is what they look like.   
                                                      A
                  1
                                                      A
               211
              55?????4


----------



## hoofhearted

> =10~18kustoms;367540]​Glad this thread is still alive and working because I just picked up a Dayton from a barn just outside of Salina KS and need some help. I’ve read all 33 pages of this thread twice now and I am still confused as to the date on this one, and have many other questions.  About the only thing I am sure of is that it does not have the pinched seat stays so probably pre 1917?  The adjusters are the Dayton style, and the head badge is the pop bottle cap style.  I am not sure about the chain ring, or why it is not the Dayton script style, possibly replaced at some point?  I have never seen this style chain ring before?  The rear hub is a Morrow, or at least the brake arm is (I didn't think they started till the 30s)?  And to really add to the confusion, it appears to have two sets of serial numbers, and the bottom bracket is pretty crusty so reading all the numbers is hard.  There is a larger but crudely stamped 41972 that runs across the bottom bracket like most other manufactures used.  I am thinking this may have been a re-stamp from a stolen bike, or something?  The other numbers and letter “A”s that do run the way it looks that most Davis numbers ran are very hard to read.  But from the things I read about date of manufacture and year dating they don’t make since unless it’s a 1911 or 1921? Here are all the pictures I took the other day when I first got it home.  Hope you can help me ID it and figure out what is right and wrong on it.  Davis style numbers and letters on bottom bracket are hard to read and the pictures didn’t turn out to good.  Here is what they look like.
> A
> 1
> A
> 211
> 55?????4





*10~18kustoms ... I am as confused as you are regarding the Davis - Dayton.  Somewhere in these 30 pages 
there is info that explains or hopes to explain the extra numbers that appear on the bicycles around 1920.

At least this is what I recall .. but I may be wrong.

Your machine is a twenty-inch frame ... having a three - inch (+ / -) headtube.  This model is seldom seen
in captivity.  The more common frame being the twenty-two-inch frame with a five-inch (+ / -) headtube.

You are correct about the lack of pinch-in feature on this frame ... but the lack has more to do with small 
frame size than anything about it being pre-1917.

Seems like one or three of the entries within this Davis-thread have a lot to do with the appearance of 'extra' 
numbers on the bottom bracket (those running in-line with the wheels).  You may have to go back and re-read.
I know I will.

Your rear fender is incorrect for a Davis - Dayton ... but correct for a Shelby-Built Dayton.  Shelby purchased 
Davis some time in 1923.  Get yourself a Dayton chainring .. hopefully one with good teeth.

The 1-inch sidewalls on the correct fenders are a tough find .. and when a body does find a pair .. they ain't 
cheap.  The special Davis dropstands with 3-edge or 4-edge piercings are really tough to find.   

Your machine would make a good candidate for a board track racer.

That is what I did with my 1917 FM .. even tho' I have the correct, deep fenders in paint and patina matching 
frame and fork ... and .. a very-nice Tip-Top saddle. These are in storage for now ... butt-hoo-nose .. one day 
I may tire of the B-Tracker look and decide to change-out some parts.*


........................  patric
































==================================================
==================================================


----------



## 10~18kustoms

Oh yes, I should have noticed the 20" frame.  What is it with me and these short frames, my Iver is a short one too.


----------



## John

*1919 model 162 Dayton*

After reading 333 posts I believe this is a 1919 Dayton Model 162


----------



## hoofhearted

John said:


> After reading 333 posts I believe this is a 1919 Dayton Model 162






*You are spot-on, John.  Very clean Dayton.  Badge very crisp.  Diggin' the Iver J. extended stem.*

....... patric



================================
================================


----------



## The Shootist

*Looking for ID help on Davis built truss frame*

Many thanks to Ejlwheels for guiding me here.
The serial appears to be  5  4596.
Would love to know approx year and what badge(s) may have lived on these models. There's a fairly distinct outline that remains. 
Peerless as Ejlwheels suggests or?


----------



## hoofhearted

The Shootist said:


> Many thanks to Ejlwheels for guiding me here.
> The serial appears to be  5  4596.
> *Would love to know approx year and what badge(s) may have lived on these models. There's a fairly distinct outline that remains. *
> Peerless as Ejlwheels suggests or?





*The Shootist .... surely there is a clearer image of this partial, 1918 Sear's ad from The CABE.
Built by Davis for Sear's.*


Not really sure how similar / different the King arch-bar is ... to / from a Davis-Badged machine.


...... patric









========================================
========================================


----------



## The Shootist

Patric,
I've been scouring for weeks, about to relent, much gratitude. Badge shadow lines up perfectly with the King.
You wouldn't happen to know any sources that might have said badge, or any other late teens davis built that could "fit", conceptually/physically.
Hole spacing is 2 5/16" center to center.




hoofhearted said:


> *The Shootist .... surely there is a clearer image of this partial, 1918 Sear's ad from The CABE.
> Built by Davis for Sear's.*
> 
> 
> Not really sure how similar / different the King arch-bar is ... to / from a Davis-Badged machine.
> 
> 
> ...... patric
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 172105
> 
> 
> 
> ========================================
> ========================================


----------



## bricycle

John said:


> After reading 333 posts I believe this is a 1919 Dayton Model 162
> View attachment 163956
> 
> View attachment 163957
> 
> View attachment 163958
> 
> View attachment 163959
> 
> View attachment 163960




...MY QUESTION IS, 
is this the first mfg. to make a moto with is this size/shape tank opening? looks like it would take one of those No.1000 tanks.....?


----------



## hoofhearted

The Shootist said:


> Patric,
> I've been scouring for weeks, about to relent, much gratitude. Badge shadow lines up perfectly with the King.
> You wouldn't happen to know any sources that might have said badge, or any other late teens davis built that could "fit", conceptually/physically.
> Hole spacing is 2 5/16" center to center.






*The Shootist ... first and foremost ... are you gonna do a resto ?

The KING badge may be found thru an ad in the WTB section.  You must show 
a pic of this badge ... otherwize everyone and their kid brother will be wantin' 
to show you their Elgin King Badge.  You don't want that badge ... it belongs 
on the correct frame for an Elgin King.

Think of building a rider with what you have AND the proper badge attached.

Davis badges are interesting but can be pricey.  Please do not stick a Davis
Dayton  up front ... the Dayton model had many different features than 
the Davis-Builts.

Put a badge on your machine ... the badge is the SOUL of the Bicycle.

A hole (or three) in a headtube is fillable.

I recommend staying within the Davis line.  Avoid the Davis-Sear's Line ... 
unless you are building the KING.  Each Sear's badge adorned a particular 
frame style.

A Victor badge may look kool ... but it is just wrong.  See the Sear's Ad ......

Pick a badge that you really like to look at.  Maybe a private-label hardware 
store badge you like.  Many of these have Indians .. Aeroplanes and other 
interesting images on them.

The last thing you wanna do is affix a Hendee Indian Badge up front.  This 
badge represents a manufacturer ... while a Mohawk reps a tribe.

There is an older thread in the CABE ... Show Your Primo Badges ... 
lots of peeps of fave badges from the membership.

Found the ''bulldog'' ornament on google.  It is a found-object re-purposed 
as a badge.  I like the thought of turning something into a badge.  Especially 
if you are building a one-off.*


..........  patric





















=====================================
=====================================


----------



## sm2501

Here are pictures of my Sear's King...lousy pictures at that...



















These are off the ebay auction when I bought the bike. I would take better pictures and share, but the bike is temporally buried right now.

Scott


----------



## The Shootist

Definitely a rider, I do around 150 mi a week so will make compromises.

I'm with you, I've chased down badges for all of my bikes as I believe them to be a portal into their soul's universe.

I'll check the primo thread and post in WTB. If I could spy a correct King, I'd dig pretty deep for it.

Thanks again Patric for all guidance, I'd like to keep my resto sins in the forgivable category.




hoofhearted said:


> *The Shootist ... first and foremost ... are you gonna do a resto ?
> 
> The KING badge may be found thru an ad in the WTB section.  You must show
> a pic of this badge ... otherwize everyone and their kid brother will be wantin'
> to show you their Elgin King Badge.  You don't want that badge ... it belongs
> on the correct frame for an Elgin King.
> 
> Think of building a rider with what you have AND the proper badge attached.
> 
> Davis badges are interesting but can be pricey.  Please do not stick a Davis
> Dayton  up front ... the Dayton model had many different features than
> the Davis-Builts.
> 
> Put a badge on your machine ... the badge is the SOUL of the Bicycle.
> 
> A hole (or three) in a headtube is fillable.
> 
> I recommend staying within the Davis line.  Avoid the Davis-Sear's Line ...
> unless you are building the KING.  Each Sear's badge adorned a particular
> frame style.
> 
> A Victor badge may look kool ... but it is just wrong.  See the Sear's Ad ......
> 
> Pick a badge that you really like to look at.  Maybe a private-label hardware
> store badge you like.  Many of these have Indians .. Aeroplanes and other
> interesting images on them.
> 
> The last thing you wanna do is affix a Hendee Indian Badge up front.  This
> badge represents a manufacturer ... while a Mohawk reps a tribe.
> 
> There is an older thread in the CABE ... Show Your Primo Badges ...
> lots of peeps of fave badges from the membership.
> 
> Found the ''bulldog'' ornament on google.  It is a found-object re-purposed
> as a badge.  I like the thought of turning something into a badge.  Especially
> if you are build a one-off.*
> 
> 
> ..........  patric
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 172179
> 
> View attachment 172177
> 
> View attachment 172178
> 
> View attachment 172180
> 
> 
> =====================================
> =====================================


----------



## The Shootist

Scott,
Thanks for the pics! So cool to actually see one and not just the ad from 1918. 
I know it's a slim chance but I'll post a WTB for a King badge.
May I use your badge photo as reference?
Jim



sm2501 said:


> Here are pictures of my Sear's King...lousy pictures at that...
> 
> View attachment 172182View attachment 172183View attachment 172184View attachment 172185View attachment 172186View attachment 172187View attachment 172188View attachment 172189
> 
> These are off the ebay auction when I bought the bike. I would take better pictures and share, but the bike is temporally buried right now.
> 
> Scott


----------



## sm2501

The Shootist said:


> Scott,
> Thanks for the pics! So cool to actually see one and not just the ad from 1918.
> I know it's a slim chance but I'll post a WTB for a King badge.
> May I use your badge photo as reference?
> Jim




Of course, good luck with your search.

Scott


----------



## Lux Low

*Davis Frames Vs Harley Davidson Frames*

I recently Jumped at a Harley Davidson Project and pretty much got Horn Swalgeled, Although No Biggie since the seller will take it back. I Thought i was getting my first Davis and A HD to Boot,  Clearly the frame was not Davis. Still mulling it over because it did have a few HD parts.   Couple questions for you Buffs. 
1. How many Davis frames are out there with the HD rear drop outs (the Non Sleeved Chain adjusters) common, not common, %, and brand names.
2. Was the Harley triple crown fork or the davis racer fork used on any other davis bicycles and are they common, not common, %, and brand names.
3. Is the Davis Truss fork common across the board , used in dayton, yale, Harley Davidson etc. 

thanx 
unsure why I wanted a HD when i really want a Dayton


----------



## hoofhearted

*Lux Low ... I will make an attempt to answer some of your inquiries thru your entry, below ...*



Lux Low said:


> I recently Jumped at a Harley Davidson Project and pretty much got Horn Swalgeled, Although No Biggie since the seller will take it back. I Thought i was getting my first Davis and A HD to Boot,  Clearly the frame was not Davis. Still mulling it over because it did have a few HD parts.   Couple questions for you Buffs.
> 
> 1. How many Davis frames are out there with the HD rear drop outs (the Non Sleeved Chain adjusters) common, not common, %, and brand names.
> 
> Number is unknown.
> 
> Generally speaking ... ALL Davis-Made machines have the Tee-Pee Style (non-sleeved) adjusters, except for those listed in the next sentence.
> 
> The 'sleeved-adjuster' is found ONLY on the Dayton brand.  However, it is sometimes encountered on the Yale brand.
> 
> For one reason or another ... the 'sleeved-adjuster' also shows up very frequently on most-any machine produced by Davis as a 1918 model, as well.
> 
> 2. Was the Harley triple crown fork or the davis racer fork used on any other davis bicycles and are they common, not common, %, and brand names.
> 
> The H-D triple-plate fork is exclusive to H-D.  At least it is exclusive as an item that appeared in no-other catalogs than H-D 1917 thru 1921.
> These unusual forks *MAY HAVE BEEN *used on other Davis machines _*AFTER *_ Davis was no-longer producing machines for H-D.
> 
> The Racer-Fork is exclusive to all Davis-Built racers. Neither the H-D triple-plate nor the Davis-Built racer fork are common.
> 
> I must say, I respect your lack of using the word, _rare _ ... the word has come to be a 'selling-feature' and has little to do with the in-frequency a particular, named-object
> is found.
> 
> 3. Is the Davis Truss fork common across the board , used in dayton, yale, Harley Davidson etc.
> 
> The Davis Truss Forks are seldom-seen.  They are often confused with Excelsior T-Forks, of Michigan City, Indiana.
> 
> There are THREE TYPES of DAVIS TRUSS FORKS ... _The DAYTON Type_ .. used on Dayton-Badged machine, only.
> 
> _The DAVIS Standard Truss Fork_ ... and ... _The DAVIS Heavy-Duty Truss Fork _ ... either of these last-two T-forks could be used on any Davis machine
> calling for a truss-fork .. sold by a distributor that sold only specific badge-brands of Davis ... speciality-distributers such as Sear's ... or machines that
> were to be sold by another manufacturer, such as H-D.
> 
> thanx
> unsure why I wanted a HD when i really want a Dayton





*Look ... am goin' outside to spark a decent forty-five cent cigar ... when I get back .. I will post 
some fotos regarding the H-D triple-plate fork .....  in the meantime .. please review the fotos 
and captions revealed within previous entries to this thread.*

..... patric cafaro










SPACER


 *<< Fork Left Is The Same Fork As Fork Right >> *



=====================
=====================


----------



## chitown

*Triple Plate examples*

Patric,

Any guesses on the maker of this Elgin triple-plate truss fork? I was thinking Snyder or Excelsior mid-late twenties but this is only a wild guess. I have seen some examples of the triple plate fork without truss rods on other bikes besides HD. I will have to do more digging to come up with examples.





Here are some more pics for reference:


----------



## hoofhearted

chitown said:


> Patric,
> 
> Any guesses on the maker of this Elgin triple-plate truss fork? I was thinking Snyder or Excelsior mid-late twenties but this is only a wild guess. I have seen some examples of the triple plate fork without truss rods on other bikes besides HD. I will have to do more digging to come up with examples.




*Good Catch -- Chris !!   I have one pic of that same fork in my library .... with the 'volcano'
appearing on the aft of the 'under-tank' bar ... I would hazard a guess that favors Excelsior in
Michigan City, IN. .... at least as far as the frame i.d.

That fork puzzles me.*

.
............  patric








=======================
=======================


----------



## chitown

Lux Low said:


> 2. Was the Harley triple crown fork or the davis racer fork used on any other davis bicycles and are they common, not common, %, and brand names.




I think the 1918 Mead Ranger Racer was a Davis built machine. Outside lugs, fork, chainring... all look Davis built to me.


----------



## hoofhearted

chitown said:


> I think the 1918 Mead Ranger Racer was a Davis built machine. Outside lugs, fork, chainring... all look Davis built to me.
> 
> View attachment 178887









*Looks very Davis-Built to me, also.
Following are some Davis-Built racers .....

Maybe some kind soul will post their copy of the
Sear's TIGER ad.  Another Davis-Built .....*

....... patric


----------



## Balloontyre

See forks, 1923  parts and speed bike. Color ad is from Summer 1917 Sears .


----------



## bricycle

Balloontyre said:


> See forks, 1923  parts and speed bike. Color ad is from Summer 1917 Sears .




...kool, now I know who made my Shapleigh!!!


----------



## chitown

*not so fast...*



bricycle said:


> ...kool, now I know who made my Shapleigh!!!




Many manufacturers built for Shapleigh... including Davis, Westfield,  Schwinn and probably others!


----------



## bricycle

chitown said:


> Many manufacturers built for Shapleigh... including Davis, Westfield,  Schwinn and probably others!




...well, I did say "my" Shapleigh.... 

...but your absolutely correct.


----------



## hoofhearted

*20-Inch Wheel/Tire Davis-Built Juvenile Bicycle ...*

*Just unpacked this tiny, Davis-Built .. 20"-wheel/tire bicycle.

Was on e-b a few weeks ago ... no other bids were placed .. other 
than the one I asked a friend to place for me.

Very-little information in the auction ... other than the fotos ... 

Bicycle has no paint anywhere.  Has very-fine toasty rust without 
any bad pitting .. dings .. bends .. absolutely no trauma anywhere.

Has Davis, single-plate fork crown .. 20-T chainring .. bayonet crank ..
has no holes for badge ... these may be debris-filled ... cleaning up 
head later today.  Does not have a single, centrally-located, half-inch
hole for acceptance of a "bottle-cap" badge-feature.

7/8" lugged-tubing in frame ... smaller tubing in seat/chain stays.

Rear-wheel is wood ... and broken beyond repair.  Front wheel is 
a metal-clad replacement.  Am replacing both wheelsets with a very-
nice matching pair of spoked (36-H) wood wheels and n.o.s. tires.

The bicycle sports an adult saddle ... which will be making a trip to 
the boneyard. *

Hell yes -- i'm gonna build it !!


..... patric


*Fotos are from e-b auction .......*























 
*^^^ Illustration via chitown ^^^*




*^^^ Catalog Info via chitown ^^^*


===========================================
===========================================




* <<< From the Ethernet*



* <<< From the Ethernet*



* <<< From the Ethernet*


============================================
============================================


----------



## bricycle

I can't see any of the photos..... boo hoo....


----------



## hoofhearted

bricycle said:


> I can't see any of the photos..... boo hoo....






*Try again, bri ..... just posted 'em.*

...........  patric


----------



## bricycle

hoofhearted said:


> *Try again, bri ..... just posted 'em.*
> 
> ...........  patric




It's cute!


----------



## Oldnut

*Hd bike*



hoofhearted said:


> *Try again, bri ..... just posted 'em.*
> 
> ...........  patric




Looks familiar well Patric should I post mine?


----------



## hoofhearted

*I don't think Ron will post his H-D Juvi 'less somebody asks ..........*



Oldnut said:


> Looks familiar well Patric should I post mine?





*Ron ...  i guess ya thinks ya needs an invitation, huh ?

O-K ... Ron ... would you be so kind as to post your Harley-Davidson Juvenile ... model 519 ?*

Thank YOU - Ron ......


......  patric



==============================
==============================


----------



## Oldnut

*1919 Harley bike*








 traded for this original paint bike,the top in my collection I'm afraid to touch it brrrrrr


----------



## hoofhearted

Oldnut said:


> Traded for this original paint bike,the top in my collection I'm afraid to touch it brrrrrr




*Ron .. that wheel is stunning ... it is indeed a 519 ... having ALL parts original ... including the badge.

The reader may notice the main-section of frame built with 7/8"-tubing ... fully-lugged thru-out.  

20-T Chainring ..... There are many areas where the original over-paint varnish is still visible ....

Ron also has the 26" Davis dropstand, rear clip and correct Juvi-Motorcyke pedals ........ Ron is a model of modesty ....*


Good Form - Your 519 - Ron !!!


.........  patric


==================================
==================================


----------



## hoofhearted

hoofhearted said:


> *Just unpacked this tiny, Davis-Built .. 20"-wheel/tire bicycle.
> 
> Was on e-b a few weeks ago ... no other bids were placed .. other
> than the one I asked a friend to place for me.
> 
> Very-little information in the auction ... other than the fotos ... there was
> no indication in the auction that this machine had 20-inch wheels.
> 
> Bicycle has no paint anywhere.  Has very-fine toasty rust without
> any bad pitting .. dings .. bends .. absolutely no trauma anywhere
> 
> Has Davis, single-plate fork crown .. 20-T chainring .. bayonet crank ..
> has no holes for badge ... these may be debris-filled ... cleaning up
> head later today.  Does not have a single, centrally-located, half-inch
> hole for acceptance of a "bottle-cap" badge-feature.
> 
> 7/8" lugged-tubing in frame ... smaller tubing in seat/chain stays.
> 
> Rear-wheel is wood ... and broken beyond repair.  Front wheel is
> a metal-clad replacement.  Am replacing both wheelsets with a very-
> nice matching pair of spoked (36-H) wood wheels and n.o.s. tires.
> 
> The bicycle sports an adult saddle ... which will be making a trip to
> the boneyard. *
> 
> Hell yes -- i'm gonna build it !!
> 
> 
> ..... patric
> 
> 
> *Foto is from e-b auction .......*
> 
> View attachment 180093
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ============================================
> ============================================





After receiving several off the line queries as to whether or not this li'l machine 
is for sale ...I am posting here ... that it is not.

In addition .. the foto below may give a clue as to the direction I will be taking
in the build.  Already have tiny, racing bars .. nice wooden leather-wound grips ..
tiny TOC racing pedals .. and a spectacular saddle (saddle - thanks to Ivo).  

EDIT April 21, 2015 received a tiny racing-type saddle ... a gift from Dean 
(CABE Member dfa242) ... sent the Ivo saddle to Dean as a gift.

Still pondering which Davis badge to place .....

Thanks to all who inquired privately ..........

...... patric




 

* ^^^ Foto via Cabe Member, Fordsnake (Carlton). ^^^*




===========================
===========================


----------



## Balloontyre

hoofhearted said:


> View attachment 180686



*
That'll be one kickin micro machine Patric, is there a story behind the rider in pic? Looks like the fork is 180.


Oldnut said:



View attachment 180190View attachment 180191View attachment 180192 traded for this original paint bike,the top in my collection I'm afraid to touch it brrrrrr
		
Click to expand...


Very cool!*


----------



## hoofhearted

Balloontyre said:


> That'll be one kickin micro machine Patric, is there a story behind the rider in pic? Looks like the fork is 180.
> No Story, Ivo ... I tossed in some names I had seen at the Mason Co. Cemetery in Maysville, KY.
> 
> Now, regarding the 180 flip on the fork of that micro machine ... common practice - that ... on board-track racers back
> in the day ... shortens the wheelbase - allowing for very-quick steering ......
> 
> Very cool!  ... says Ivo ... regarding Oldnut's Model 519 "Boy Scout" H-D bicycle.






........  Thanks for your interest, Ivo !!

...........  patric


=================================
=================================


----------



## Lux Low

*Beckley Ralston Possible Davis Built*

I got this Beckley Ralston Aerocycle bike in rough shape and did my Magic, I Never Really locked down The Manufacturer had suspicions of Michigan City Excelsior ( Probably because of the Fork ) and knew Davis had built some. Never to determine the exact manufacturer,  Now after Looking at the Serial it looks like  davis serial, and the fork and fenders are slightly different hues. But the bike has no lugs, so what you Think?


----------



## hoofhearted

Lux Low said:


> I got this Beckley Ralston Aerocycle bike in rough shape and did my Magic, I Never Really locked down The Manufacturer had suspicions of Michigan City Excelsior ( Probably because of the Fork ) and knew Davis had built some. Never to determine the exact manufacturer,  Now after Looking at the Serial it looks like  davis serial, and the fork and fenders are slightly different hues. But the bike has no lugs, so what you Think?





*Tyler ... everything regarding the frame says Davis-Built.  That truss fork is a mystery ...
very possible it is an Excelsior Mfg. Co. .. Michigan City, Indiana.

The extra number .. a ''9'' ... above the serial number .. indicates a 1919-model .. Davis Built.

Look .. i'm not trying to insinuate that your machine is a H-D ... but peep the foto below 
for similarities in the two frames.  The H-D (Davis-Built) has a gentle-curve in the top-bar ...
compared to an Indian motobike (not shown) .. which has a sudden-appearing bend in the top bar.

You cannot see in the H-D foto ... but the fender-bridges are curved .. and have the suggestion 
of a trumpet-mouth trait in their presentation.*


.........  patric













=================================
=================================


----------



## boardhoarder

I started a thread about ID'ing this TOC/teens era frame+fork a week or so ago, and the general consensus is that it is Davis built. 
Patric recommended that I post it here in the Davis thread, also. Below are some pics. If you are interested in reading and seeing a few more details, the original thread can be found here: 

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?66094-Help-I-D-this-TOC-teens-era-frame-if-you-please


















Thanks for looking. Appreciate any info you might have...


----------



## hoofhearted

*Truss-Fork Identification Quiz .......*

*Noticed this fork currently being auctioned on E-B.  

E-B Identifdication Number ....  251816392422 ... BIN @ $975.oo plus $15.oo shipping.

Auction description indicates this fork is for a 1917 H-D Motorcyke.

Am repeating the BIN price for the benefit of the non-believers that waltz amongst us ... $975.oo ... 

These are the un-retouched fotos from the auction.

Is this truss-fork for a 1917 H-D Motorcyke ?*


............  patric




























=================
=================


----------



## hoofhearted

*A 1917 H-D Motorcyke Truss-Fork  ?*

*Thank YOU - ejlwheels for the use of your Dayton truss-fork fotos ... BELOW.

The Truss-Fork noted in the previous entry IS NOT A H-D Truss-Fork.

Auction-fork is a Davis-Dayton ........*


....................  p.
















===================
===================


----------



## chitown

And how about all the folks who built these Davis machines. Photo via our National Archives.


----------



## walter branche

fork is reversed in order for it to be able to get close to the pace machine , check out stayer ,or see my photos of the Bastide bikes used in the olympics that I sold, shipping container , also photo of them being loaded on the truck


----------



## walter branche

*more photos of the reverse front end*

for pacing behind


----------



## walter branche

remove these photos if they cause a problem with the davis thread , i wanted to show the purpose of the reversed front ends


----------



## delgan

The bike leaning against the step ladder is mine and has a Snell badge. http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=67626&stc=1&d=1348796229  I had ask for some info on it acouple years ago and it has been here on the farm for about 15 years. After reading all the post on the Davis bikes I have got the bug to work on it. I understand cleaning with the 0000steel wool and WD40 and will be getting ready to work on it this weekend. My question now is-- what about the tires--leave them or replace them? I just want to have it looking good but would consider riding it. The spokes are rusty and haven't tested to see how strong they are. I have been into old stuff since as long as I can remember as my Mom was a collector of antiques until she died. This bike just keeps getting my attention and I have it hanging in the shop to where I look at it everyday--it is time to get looking nice!


----------



## hoofhearted

*Here's a very-good thread initiated by CABE Member, Champy .....

Am bumpin' it up ... for the benefit of those hunter-gatherers attending
MLC and AA in less than a month ............*


....... patric





  *My best H-D ring .....*



















==========================
==========================


----------



## THE STIG




----------



## hoofhearted

*Foto originally posted by THE STIG.

Horsepower added to THE STIG's posting .....*



....... patric











============================
============================


----------



## gator49

Great subject HD sprocket.
I’ve had this sprocket since 1982. I think it’s a Davis frame serial number (02320) above that serial number looks to be a stamping of an upside down (7?) I will try to post some photos of the sprocket and crank. I would appreciate any information about the crank / is that a (B) or number (8)?
Also notice an (A) stamped on the bearing race could this identify the year of the sprocket and crank?
Thanks
Dave


----------



## gator49

gator49 said:


> View attachment 205730Great subject HD sprocket.
> I’ve had this sprocket since 1982. I think it’s a Davis frame serial number (02320) above that serial number looks to be a stamping of an upside down (7?) I will try to post some photos of the sprocket and crank. I would appreciate any information about the crank / is that a (B) or number (8)?
> Also notice an (A) stamped on the bearing race could this identify the year of the sprocket and crank?
> Thanks
> Dave
> 
> 
> Dave




Sorry can't get the photos downloaded properly. For some reason when I try to attach the photos the computer locks up.
Dave


----------



## gator49

gator49 said:


> Sorry can't get the photos downloaded properly. For some reason when I try to attach the photos the computer locks up.
> Dave




I'll try this one more time. I don't think it's the computer!!!!
Dave


----------



## Goldenindian

*Had to add this to the davis thread*

1919 
questions:
serial # 509472 (anybody??)
the bicycle has no badge,(which I would love to get) the holes are 2.5 inches apart on the sides????
please post info


----------



## chitown




----------



## Goldenindian

*Found this on the internet thought it belonged here*

Chitown/ I would love to pick your brain on Davis Yale's!!!
              Early years of "Davis" Yale info specifics, and changes in parts. 


Found this on Nostalgic.net. Thanks You!
I remember a thread on here talking about "Davis Made" down tube decals. That thread has no pictures.
I am putting this here. This machine has a wild paint scheme. Green, Red pins, and ??? cream??. I don't know.


----------



## Goldenindian

Duro 
Davis Sewing Machine 
Picked this up from fellow caber Frankster. Had a awesome time, Thanks for showing me around and talking bikes. Bottom bracket has the "D" instead of year date. I see Duro mentioned in the later days of Davis.
I have been wondering if this machine is from the last days of Davis or Shelby assembled? The fenders are not the 1in. But I have been wondering if these fenders are original. Have been considering goof-off. The front wheel and seat are replacements. Persons seat was broken (still have) and wheel was warped(not metal clad). Also noticed the handlebars have a threading on them. Is that Hussey?  Let me know. Wanted to share, haven't seen a Duro in the Davis thread.

 

 

 

 



Thanks 
glenn


----------



## hoofhearted

*Goldenindian ... very nice Duro .. first one I've ever seen.

Are the front tubes of frame 1-inch .. or seven-eighths inch ?

Nice flat, forged fork crown.

Has ''Dayton''-type axel adjusters.

Not sure if the Duro was made in the early-teens, or, even
earlier ... but they were made mid-teens .. and as late as 1922
... if you look at Davis ads of that era.

Not sure if Shelby continued with his marque .. post 1922 / '23.
Have not seen any production examples.
*
....... patric


----------



## Goldenindian

Frame tubes are 1in construction. Roadster I believe.


----------



## Goldenindian

Noticed it had the "Pinch in" on rear stays. Past 17. Thanks, Patrick appreciate the post.


----------



## Goldenindian

May help? May confuse?
When i got the bicycle from Frank he had went through it and the fork had a pin, which held the fork in a certain spot. Does the Davis fork have a pin? He also found a wooden block in the bottom bracket. It didn't really seem to serve much purpose. We wondered if it was factory or added.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Goldenindian ... 1'' tubes with lugs is VERY Dayton .. unlike
other Davis marques.  As is the pinched-in, upper, seat stays,
a feature the Dayton sashayed since 1917.

The underside of that fork,  having a horizontal-pin .... enabled
the use of a machine-screw cup hook ... to go over the  pin ...
and thru the front-fender ... that is the way the factory hung the
front fender.

It's possible someone in the future of that ride jammed a section
of dowel-rod in the very lower steer-tube ... and used a wood-screw
to retain the fender.
*
........ patric


----------



## hoofhearted

*Doood ... I totally misread the wooden block thing.

Upon re-reading your post -- a circular, and drilled wooden block
was found in the bottom-bracket.

Don't believe that was ever factory ... maybe an ancient tinker's 
way of damming-up the left and right sides of that bottom bracket,
so left and right sides could be -- No -- Never Mind ... that would be 
stupid.  

Just curious, tho' ... were the attaching areas of the downtube and
seatstays ... where they join to the bottom bracket ... were they corked ?
*
....... patric
*
*


----------



## Goldenindian

Patric
I'll have to get back to you on tubes featuring corks. I do believe I understand the pin. My new Yale project has this this horizontal pin feature in the fork as well. 
This is what I love about bicycles from this era. You buy a bicycle and you get some weird treasures with it. A pocket full of petrified oak wood, and a strange pin which seems important. Haha
I'll get back to you soon.


----------



## hoofhearted

hoofhearted said:


> *Doood ... I totally misread the wooden block thing.
> 
> Upon re-reading your post -- a circular, and drilled wooden block
> was found in the bottom-bracket.
> 
> Don't believe that was ever factory ... maybe an ancient tinker's
> way of damming-up the left and right sides of that bottom bracket,
> so left and right sides could be -- No -- Never Mind ... that would be
> stupid.
> 
> Just curious, tho' ... were the attaching areas of the downtube and
> seatstays ... where they join to the bottom bracket ... were they corked ?
> *
> ....... patric





*Well, it wasn't so stupid for somebody.

Years ago, I picks up a tall-frame, Davis .. a single-rail.

Took it apart ... inside the crankcase was a split, wooden
do-nut .. with a circular, iron band to hold the halves to-
gether ... much like your finding, Goldenindian.  

Looked to be homemade.

The two-halves of this '' spacer'' fit over the axel-area of
the crankarm.

In addition, a previous owner drilled and tapped for some
grease-zerks.  Now don't get too excited.  The zerks were
installed on the crankcase of this Davis WITHOUT any
respect for symmetry.  None, whatsoever.

A person with a full grease-gun could blast-away with the
grease ... filling one side of the crankcase (and part of the
other side).  Any grease that was already in that crankcase
would be forced thru little, hollow spaces .. bearings ...
races and cups ..... and eventually came oozing out the boulevard 
surrounding the adjusting cone of the crank.

Same for the chainring-side of that crankcase.  The zerk 
nearest the chainring got it's fair-share of the grease.

Wow ... that chainring-side was a hardened mess.

Am pretty sure the wooden block was a way to ''pre-stuff'' the 
crankcase ... wouldn't wanna get too much grease in there --- 
now .. would we ?!!

And what would the little ''crankcase-stuffer'' do to prevent 
grease from blowin' into the downtube .. seatmast and chainstays ?

Why .. cork 'em, of course.

*
............ patric
*


*


----------



## willswares1220

1890's  > Dayton Special ( Racer ) low slung - 22 inch frame > as found condition with old repaint.
The tube diameter is a larger > 1-1/4 inches with nice lug work and the narrower - 28 inch wood rims.
I've straightened and cleaned up the bars to bring out what traces of nickle is still left yet. Everything else is uncleaned for the time being.
There doesn't seem to be much paint left under that older red repaint, so I'll cleanup whats there and retain that color as well and what traces of nickle is still left on the other "bright" parts also. The rim hoops, spokes & seat will definitely need replacing. I do prefer the aged / patina ed appearance on my bikes.............. to each his own I guess........


----------



## oddball

Help me identify this Davis built 28" motorbike, frame is small 17-1/2" from center of BB to top of seat mast.


----------



## oddball

Heavy duty Davis forks


----------



## oddball




----------



## oddball

Serial # 282213 (or so it looks) no top year # (s)


----------



## oddball

Head badge holes vertical aligned 2-3/8" apart


----------



## oddball

Top stays secures to seat mast like Daytons


----------



## oddball




----------



## hoofhearted

*

Oddball ....

There are many variations from the Davis/Dayton norm
seen in your frame/fork.

First .. let us forget about the fenders, for now.

Second .. let us forget about the two-different frame sizes
in the attached fotos.

Third .. please compare and contrast the frame/fork
components in my attached fotos.  Let's focus on this.

Please review the entire Davis thread .. after you have done
the Third step.  

Download fotos of other frames/forks (from the entire Show 
your Davis built bicycles) that you believe relate to the fotos 
presented in this particular entry.



Will get back to this thread, soon - very busy - wife's b'day.

....... patric




 




 




 
*


----------



## Goldenindian

Is this an early fork?? I thought the Dayton had the "spool" Dayton only fork. I am the proud owner of the second bicycle pictured by Patrick. It has this spool fork. What is that other fork? With the curved tuss rods.


----------



## Goldenindian

Heavy duty? I have a 1917 catalog that shows the Dayton with this curved truss feature. I have always been curious about this Davis fork.


----------



## Junkhunter

Been cleaning on the Yale. I think this must be complete from looking at the way the rims are painted. There's a blue hue to many of the parts that give a nice patina to the bike. The fork was nickel but painted that same Yale blue on the inside. A good portion of the pin striping is still visible on the frame and fenders also. still looking for the springs for the trowel. Maybe they will show up at Copake in a couple of weeks.


----------



## Junkhunter




----------



## Goldenindian

very nice looking. any bottom bracket pictures. would love to see the numbers. Does it start with 5?


----------



## hoofhearted

Goldenindian said:


> Is this an early fork?? *I* *thought* *the* *Dayton* *had* *the* "*spool*" *Dayton* *only* *fork*. I am the proud owner of the second bicycle pictured by Patrick. It has this spool fork. What is that other fork? With the curved tuss rods.


----------



## oddball

Thanks Patric for the comments, the headbadge holes 2-3/8" apart really throws me.I'm sure it's a Davis machine and sure it's not a Dayton so is this a head scratcher ? 
Cliff


----------



## fordmike65

Just came across this pic of a bike I picked up recently. I noticed the fork is similar to the "spool" fork...maybe not?


----------



## willswares1220

Patric could tell you. You might have to take a pic of the whole bicycle though.


----------



## hoofhearted

fordmike65 said:


> Just came across this pic of a bike I picked up recently. I noticed the fork is similar to the "spool" fork...maybe not?





*Could be, young man.  Need pics of bicycle.

Below is a Davis DAYTON fork.

...... patric



 *


----------



## fordmike65

Here ya go Patric. I've posted her before, but after reading through this thread noticed the fork similarity. Looks to be Excelsior built. My intention is not to direct this thread off into a tangent. Just thought I'd post a pic. Feel free to have these pics deleted if you wish.


----------



## hoofhearted

oddball said:


> Thanks Patric for the comments, the headbadge holes 2-3/8" apart really throws me.I'm sure it's a Davis machine and sure it's not a Dayton so is this a head scratcher ?
> Cliff




*Cliff ... still a headscratcher, fer me.

The one badge that MAY span those
screw-hole measurements .. is the
Davis-DAYTONIA.

Don't have one handy right this minit.

In addition .. the Dayton military bicycle
of 1918 has been seen sporting the Day-
ton badge with eagle on top ... the stand-
ard Dayton badge of the era .. and the
DAYTONIA badge.

That Datonia is a rascal-king ... tough to
find -- even on google .. or CABE search.

If I found one during my searches, today,
you know I would've posted to the macks.

Interesting machine - Cliff !

...... patric*


----------



## hoofhearted

fordmike65 said:


> Here ya go Patric. I've posted her before, but after reading through this thread noticed the fork similarity. Looks to be Excelsior built. My intention is no to direct this thread off into a tangent. Just thought I'd post a pic.


----------



## oddball

I'll keep my eyes peeled for the Daytonia badge,thanks again Patric


----------



## hoofhearted

*

 






 






 
*

*



 




















Not in my wildest imaginings did I ever believe a 1918 
Davis, Dayton Military Model Badge would waltz my way .. 
but that very-happening did occur, this Summer.   

Am not revealing the ''how'' of it all .. and certainly not 
the ''how much ?'' ... but I will reveal the badge is stamped 
''nickel-silver'' ... had traces of lead-solder on the reverse 
(to attach the missing bottle cap feature) and was delivered 
to this player having a fairly-thick coating of oxidation and 
nearly one-hundred year old dirt.  

After a gentle scrubbing of mild, hand soap with a well-used 
and soft toothbrush .. well, the fotos tell the story to this point.  
Am pretty sure I will continue (to a very-limited degree) to 
clean the badge with Flitz Liquid .. in the not too distant future.  

Rest assured that the warmth of the natural patina will be preserved 
... it is not this collector's intention to make the badge look as though 
the relic is brand-new. The camera enhanced much of the light-effects 
you see in the fotos ... but to the eye - the overall color of the badge 
is a charcoal color.  

So, how did this item end up not being placed on a Davis, Dayton, Mili-
tary Model Bicycle ?   Perhaps not enough soldering-flux was applied 
to the back, prior to the application of the lead solder ... maybe the 
back-side was soiled with flux-repellent debris (oil on the craftsman's 
fingers, maybe) ?   

A gentle-tweaking of the edges of the badge was all it took to hug the 
headtube of one of the two, Davis, Military Bicycles in my collection ... 
the other being a Model B-1 Harley-Davidson, tall-frame.


................  patric



*


----------



## redline1968




----------



## hoofhearted

*


 * Spring thru Nov. 11, 1918


----------



## Goldenindian

1916 Hearsey Special:


----------



## dfa242

Wow, that's a beautiful machine - good for you.


----------



## Goldenindian




----------



## hoofhearted

*

Glenn ... your 1916 Hearsey Special motorbike is an
unbelievable example of outstanding design - emerging
from the America of one-hundred years ago.

Wow-Wee-Wow-Wow !!

You are very fortunate, young man.

....... patric*


----------



## Goldenindian

Thanks Patric, I have to send some thanks your way as, you did helped ID this on for me. The frame and fender combo seems to be on the rare side. Also I would love to know what other color combos you have seen over the years? Your old white and blue frame and fork tells me they where not necessarily Davis line normal combos.


----------



## Goldenindian

Drove 20 hours for this one!


----------



## rustyspoke66

So a spring sprung and oil dampened saddle? WOW!!! I don't think I've seen one on a bicycle before!! Gorgeous bike!!!


----------



## Goldenindian

Badge pic
Red pins.


----------



## bricycle

Goldenindian said:


> View attachment 352260



Please, please, please dunt nev'r restore this.


----------



## azbug-i

Been working on this. Need to strip the decal off the front wheel. And find a drop stand. And fenders if i could. But none the less rides great so far!

I glued the beat up seat pan back together for a seat i bought. I Found the wheels at a bicycle recycling place that i normally cant stand. Swapped the cogs. Had to grind up poopty welds on the replaced cross bar on the bars to fit through the stem. 

Anyone have tips on securing these center mount head badges?

Super excited to have this bike i can tell you that. This is basically my to car and bike shows commuter. Ha.


----------



## Goldenindian

Cool Dayton! What are the serial numbers on that machine? Hoping I get mine together soon.


----------



## Goldenindian

"D"?


----------



## azbug-i

Ill take a picture. I got it from jeff


----------



## hoofhearted

azbug-i said:


> Anyone have tips on securing these center mount head badges?








*

azbug-i ... The most important thing about attaching
the Dayton badge, is to fine-tune the badge so that it
''hugs'' the headtube.

The edges of the badge, with all those nooks and cran-
nies will need to be processed so that the entire perimeter
and curvature of the badge is in full contact with the head-
tube.

My preference for mini body-work tools is several three-inch
sections of chop-sticks.  (Also, use your fingers to massage
the badge into place.)

The business-end of the tool can be carved or filed to fit
the application.  A small ballpeen hammer can be used to
hit the back-end of the chop-stick.  Make sure you have a
decent thickness of leather, between the work table and 
the badge.

When all tuning is done ... the badge should look like it was
born on the very-spot of where it will be placed.

Place the badge .. then using blue masking tape as ''witnesses'',
place two pieces of the tape onto the headtube ... above and 
below the badge.  This will be used to align the badge once
the adhesive is placed.

Using lacquer thinner .. clean inside and outside the hole in 
the headtube.  Clean it again.

Epoxy likes epoxy to metal contact ... dislikes epoxy to paint 
contact.

Clean the back of the badge, also.

My epoxy preference is J-B Weld.   Following mixing directions,
cram some o' the stuff into and behind the headtube hole ... and
onto the front of the headtube, surrounding the hole.

Place some of that epoxy on the center of back of the badge.

Place the badge ... tightly wrap some of that blue masking tape
around the top and bottom of the BADGE and HEADTUBE ... to
make sure the badge holds contact with the headtube.

Hang the frame rear-side up ... you don't want epoxy pooling into
the headtube.  

As the epoxy shows signs of curing .. check the badge itself.

If you see epoxy-running out of the edges ... clean the areas with
a flat toothpick.

...... patric



*


----------



## azbug-i

Thank you for the long detailed tips here!

I dont think i adhered my dayton badge to my other so smartly having seen this! But i will do a nice job with my davis. Right now the badge is safely in my tool box


----------



## azbug-i

I took these last night. I swapped out the jam nuts and lowered the seat because im so short. It rides great. Ill get the badge secured soon


----------



## hoofhearted

*
azbug-i ... Good Form ... looks great !

....... patric*


----------



## tech549

with the help of fellow cabe members they pin pointed  year and model  1919 davis  built Dayton roadster,


----------



## sm2501

Love the Vitalics!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Goldenindian

Red or blue tread


----------



## hoofhearted

tech549 said:


> with the help of fellow cabe members they pin pointed  year and model  1919 davis  built Dayton roadster.




*tech549 .... your Dayton Roadster is beautiful to behold.

It's state of preservation - remarkable.

Took the liberty of re-posting CABEr ...  ejlwheels  ... 
revised Davis-Dayton Code Chart.    

Great work - ejlwheels !

........ *patric
*
*


----------



## tech549

Goldenindian said:


> Red or blue tread
> View attachment 356763



production date on the vitalic tires?


----------



## Freqman1

tech549 said:


> production date on the vitalic tires?
> 
> View attachment 357080



I'm thinking those are probably patent dates. V/r Shawn


----------



## tech549

hoofhearted said:


> *tech549 .... your Dayton Roadster is beautiful to behold.
> 
> It's state of preservation - remarkable.
> 
> Took the liberty of re-posting CABEr ...  ejlwheels  ...
> revised Davis-Dayton Code Chart.
> 
> Great work - ejlwheels !
> 
> ........ *patric
> *
> *
> 
> View attachment 356776
> 
> 
> View attachment 356777



feel very fortunate to be able to purchase this bike as 2 fellow cabers stepped aside for me,negotiate with the seller as I made first contact.and as I look closer at this Dayton it is remarkable!glad to be able to share as these don't come along to often!!


----------



## DaveT

Hi Folks............I just discovered (and joined) this forum and am impressed by what I see.  I've got a Dayton bike that I bought at an auction in 1962 for $5.  I've kept it hanging in my work shop since then, but don't know too much about it.  Ii's been enjoyable reading through the info on this thread.

I'll attach some pics and welcome feedback and wisdom from the community.  Please tell me what you think about it.

 DaveT


----------



## Goldenindian

Very nice complete 1919 model 162 motobike. Maybe old resto?....still ALL the right stuff! Nice score for the price. Very nice Davis machine. Welcome to the cabe.


----------



## Goldenindian

Two 1919s back to back. Love it. 
Model 160 roadster 
Model 162 motobike.


----------



## Goldenindian

Dave T: I don't mean to go off on a side tangent....because some other cabers will have more to say about your machine I am sure....your machine and many others in this thread have Dayton motobikes pictured with black fenders with carmine centers. Does anyone know when this started? Were they ever all carmine? Fenders that  match the frame.  In the 1920 catalog it "appears" to have carmine fenders. Very few examples are all carmine. Is this black fendered setup standard or something Dayton changed along the way? Let me know. Thanks.


----------



## Goldenindian

Dave -rims look like 26inch? Try to find some nice 28" rims for that ride.


----------



## DaveT

Goldenindian said:


> Dave T: I don't mean to go off on a side tangent....because other cabers will have more to say about your machine....your machine and many others in this thread have Dayton motobikes with the black fenders with carmine centers. Does anyone when this started? Where they ever all carmine? Carmine outside black centers on the fenders? Fenders that  match the frame.  In the 1920 catalog it "appears" to have carmine fenders. Very few examples I see are all carmine. Is this black fendered setup standard or something Dayton changed along the way? Let me know. Thanks.


----------



## DaveT

Goldenindian said:


> Dave T: I don't mean to go off on a side tangent....because other cabers will have more to say about your machine....your machine and many others in this thread have Dayton motobikes with the black fenders with carmine centers. Does anyone when this started? Where they ever all carmine? Carmine outside black centers on the fenders? Fenders that  match the frame.  In the 1920 catalog it "appears" to have carmine fenders. Very few examples I see are all carmine. Is this black fendered setup standard or something Dayton changed along the way? Let me know. Thanks.





Goldenindian said:


> Very nice complete 1919 model 162 motobike. Maybe old resto?....still ALL the right stuff! Nice score for the price. Very nice Davis machine. Welcome to the cabe.





It doesn't appear, to my eye, that it is factory paint.  Perhaps the original color but not original paint.  I've never removed anything to see if I could see original paint.  
Where would I go to get rims and tires that would approach the originals.  I assume perhaps they were originally 28" wood rims. I suspect, also, that the balloon tires are not correct.  My knowledge of this bike's needs is extremely limited.  So, what does it need to at least have the correct wheels?


----------



## Goldenindian

I said that because there was some red paint  on the headbadge. Usually a sign of an old re-paint. Yes the right color scheme.
            Yes the would have taken 28" wood rims. Tech549s Dayton posted just before is a perfect example of original rims and tires for Dayton. Those tires are extremely rare, finding a pair that nice is nearly impossible. Universal Elizbethtown display tires are an option. Daytons should have white.  You can get a good straight set of rims on the cabe. Put an ad in wanted: someone will try to help.


----------



## hoofhearted

*
DaveT ....

Primo machine you have !!

A voice in my noggin tells me the 
machine used to be black.

Could be original black paint on
those fenders.  You may want to 
explore this.

The fotos tell me the black on the
fenders is a soft, satin finish - age
related.

There may be black under all that 
red on the frame.  If this proves out
to be true ... and you want to remove
some paint ... someone on the CABE
can give you the 411.

It's a killer machine ... so un-abused
and crisp.

You are very fortunate - DaveT !!

...... patric




 

*





*1920 Catalog Page*


----------



## DaveT

Patric.......
Overall, the bike looks like it was painted with a fine bristle brush sometime in the ancient past........maybe before the advent of the spray gun or rattle can.  I'm not sure what I even want to do with it.  For sure, at least, accurate tires and rims.  Tell me what you know about Lux Low.  They have what appears to be 'close to original style' 28" wood rimmed w/white rubber tired wheels on their site if I'm willing to cough up the 600 clams it would take to make the switch.  They look to be very nicely done.
BTW, thanks for the compliment.  I really want to do the right thing, but being such a newbie, not sure what direction to take.


----------



## hoofhearted

*
DaveT ... first off .. I don't feel comfortable commenting
on Lux Low's merch simply because I have never had 
the experience of examination of same.

Second off ... no way I will be commenting on Lux Low,
the person .. and a fellow CABEr -- other than to say he
has quality stuff and has been (with me) a very-straight
shooter.  

Do a CABE Search ... wood wheels for sale ... and 28''
tires for sale.  You may find info re: a person who makes
quality wood wheels ... your choice of a variety of spoke-
count .. and I believe - finished or non-finished.

Other CABEr's may chime in ... maybe lead you to a partic-
ular thread .. so as to leave this thread as Davis-Only, as 
can be.

Supposedly, all Davis machines are brush-painted ...then 
rubbed.  You will be fairly hard-pressed to find any brush
marks on a Davis.

In addition .. on a Davis ... when the outside area of a fender
is painted to be a certain color ... the frame will-also be that
color.   In your machine's case ... the outside of those fenders
is black ... and would have, what Davis calls, carmine accents
for the fenders, only.  The frame of a Dayton carries no accent
color ... or striping.

Do as much research as you can, DaveT.



....... patric*


post script .....
Don't be shy about punchin' the *LIKE* button on any fellow-CABEr's input ...
if you like what they have shared with you.







*1895 Davis DAYTON badge design.  Screwhole version
'though they were left out in the illustration.*


----------



## azbug-i

Does anyone know if this drop stand will fit my dayton on page 22. My phone is sucking and wont attach pics in my office building. Junk reception.  Thanks for thr help everyone.. and the compliments! !

http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/28-drop-stand-with-ears.97094/


----------



## hoofhearted

azbug-i said:


> Does anyone know if this drop stand will fit my dayton on page 22. My phone is sucking and wont attach pics in my office building. Junk reception.  Thanks for thr help everyone.. and the compliments! !
> 
> http://thecabe.com/forum/threads/28-drop-stand-with-ears.97094/



*VVV          The above link shows this stand.       VVV*





*azbug ... it will fit.

You may want to consider holding off for 
a correct Davis-Built stand.  Your machine
deserves to be finished right.

Below are two Davis stands - either is correct
for model-year 1917 thru 1922 ('23).

Another Davis stand ...for 1916 and earlier .. is 
shown below the two Davis stands.

This stand is Canadian in origin .. but is correct
for the earlier Davis models.
*
....... patric


*


 







*


----------



## oddball

Yup, been looking for that hard to find 1913-16 stand for my 1916 Chief for a couple of years now


----------



## hoofhearted

oddball said:


> Yup, been looking for that hard to find 1913-16 stand for my 1916 Chief for a couple of years now




*The only ones I've ever seen .. since I got into
this stuff .. mid 80's ...... I scored on the same 
Friday at MLC.   

Maybe Fall Meet of 2013.

Two different sellers.  

Ivo (CABEr balloontyre) was sitting shotgun in
my car (with me in the drivers seat) on the park-
ing lot ... yak yak yak yak ....

A passerby came up to the window and asked
me, ''what is this stand for ?''

I told him ... then asked if he wanted to sell it.

He set the price ... it was not cheap.

I bought it ... gave him an extra twenty-five sim-
oleons.  

Am sharing this story ... not as an act of braggadocio,
but to remind others that the stuff IS out there.

Oddball ... I would let one go ... but they are destined
for two Miami-Builts.   One is shown, below.
*
...... patric
*
*




*









*


----------



## oddball

I think twice or three times before I reproduce hard to find items like that stand, but there's a half a dozen of us with 1915 or 16 Chiefs in my area that could use em, so............


----------



## cyclingday

wspeid said:


> *Model  A  172 Dayton motor bike*
> 
> Anyone know what the A denotes in this serial stamping?   Based on reading here mine looks like a 1919 model with some of the optional black coloration... pictures to follow shortly
> 
> View attachment 86984






Goldenindian said:


> Thanks Patric, I have to send some thanks your way as, you did helped i.d. this on for me. The frame and fender combo seems to be on the rare side. Also I would love to know what other color combos you have seen over the years? Your old white and blue frame and fork tells me they where not necessarily Davis line normal combos.



I'm working on what I think might be a
1921 H-D model 421 Motorcyke.
During disassembly, I took some photos of any stampings that I came across, and I was puzzled by what appears to be a letter A stamped on the bottom bracket.
The fork yoke has a letter B stamped on it.
Then I spotted something interesting that may or may not have any significance, but there is a corresponding letter A on the bottom bracket bearing adjusting race, and a letter B stamped on the headset adjusting race.


----------



## Goldenindian

Hey Marty, the "A" makes things hard to pinpoint within three years. 1920-1922. I have a "A" Dayton, and recently got yet another "D" machine. I have been starting to take notice of these letter stamps on the forks as well. Never noticed the stamps on the hardware! Good eye! The plot thickens! 

Will post machine soon.


----------



## chitown

The inside dope on the 1920 Snell line:


----------



## redline1968

cyclingday said:


> View attachment 387400 View attachment 387401 View attachment 387402 View attachment 387403 View attachment 387404
> 
> 
> 
> I'm working on what I think might be a
> 1921 H-D model 421 Motorcyke.
> During disassembly, I took some photos of any stampings that I came across, and I was puzzled by what appears to be a letter A stamped on the bottom bracket.
> The fork yoke has a letter B stamped on it.
> Then I spotted something interesting that may or may not have any significance, but there is a corresponding letter A on the bottom bracket bearing adjusting race, and a letter B stamped on the headset adjusting race.





Wow nice.. paint looks like Harley to me.. I've done my own research on orig H.D. Frames numbers for  years and seems that all the Harley's I've seen have the same.. a letter and serial number no extra numbers.   It looks to me like black was the 2nd base color for the H.D. Green Paint color. Love to see more pics on this beauty.


----------



## cyclingday

When I had the fork out of the head tube, I looked inside to see the swedge of the bottle cap type head badge, and I noticed the "Inside Dope" of the double locked head joint.
I wondered how they built a frame this way.
That 1920 Snell ad pretty much spelled it out.
Thanks for posting, Chitown.


----------



## redline1968

A dealer friend gave me this..I believe it's 1920's


----------



## Goldenindian

Thanks Marty for sharing. When we talked last I think I remember you mentioning this was a 1921 model Motocyke. From what I have seen, the 1920 and on Davis frames used for their bicycles don't seem to match yours. Notice the bottom bar. It has an upward angle, where yours appears to be paralell. I know the bicycle has a "A" on the bottom bracket. This all makes me think this is an 1918 Harley.....?......the construction does not have the 1920 or later traits for me. What do you think? also the seat lug would make sense for 1918.


----------



## Goldenindian

1920:


 
1918:


----------



## hoofhearted

Goldenindian said:


> Thanks Marty for sharing. When we talked last I think I remember you mentioning this was a 1921 model Motocyke. From what I have seen, the 1920 and on Davis frames used for their bicycles don't seem to match yours. Notice the bottom bar. It has an upward angle, where yours appears to be paralell. I know the bicycle has a "A" on the bottom bracket. This all makes me think this is an 1918 Harley.....?......the construction does not have the 1920 or later traits for me. What do you think? also the seat lug would make sense for 1918.




*Goldenindian ... I totally agree with your analysis
and findings.

There's another tell for 1918 ... the Davis of 1918 
OFTEN, BUT NOT ALWAYS, was
blessed with Dayton-type axel adjusters.

Great sleuthing -- Goldenian !!

Marty -- absolutely bee-yoo-tee-full H-D you have.

AND  ... ARE THOSE ALL-STEEL, LOW-PROFILE 
CLINCHERS on that machine ??

Of course they be.  The 1918 H-D Military-Model
came with same kind o' wheel .... Hmmm ..........

Nice ......
*
......... patric


----------



## cyclingday

Thanks for the assessment guys.
I really appreciate it!
The bike was thought to be a 1919 when I bought it, but I thought it might be a tad later than that, only because it had the bottle cap type head badge and the all steel low profile clincher type rims.
I didn't know that those rims were a feature of the 1918 military model.
The one feature that the frame has, that seems to be of later Davis production, is the "double locked head joint construction"
The Snell ad that Chitown posted, says that this feature was new for 1920 models.
But, I've got to say, that 1918 advertisement sure looks like the bike.
I guess the one thing we know for sure, is that it is a Davis made Harley Davidson bicycle.
Lol!


----------



## hoofhearted

*Have been meaning to post Goldenindian's magnificent 
1919 Davis-Built turned relic ... WITH ... two genuine art-
icles I own.

Did not get the badge from the same source as the ring ...
but I wanted each in relic-condition for the better part of
a quarter-century.   Never thought something like these
were even out there ... but here they be .......

When I saw that Goldenindian posted his '19 Davis for the 
first time ... my socks began going up and down for maybe 
thirty-seconds.

Connectivity ... yeah .. I love that stuff .......
*
......... patric


----------



## Goldenindian

Hey hey

Finished my Dayton!
Not sure on year, bottom bracket numbers are crazy.


----------



## hoofhearted

Goldenindian said:


> Hey hey
> 
> Finished my Dayton!
> Not sure on year, bottom bracket numbers are crazy.





*Sheeza beauty - Goldenindian !!
*
......... patric


----------



## cyclingday

Bike looks great!
Those bottom bracket numbers are crazy.
Who knows what was going on there.


----------



## Kato

A few pics of my 1918 Davis built Yale


----------



## hoofhearted

*
Kato ... yours is a classically-built Davis, 
Yale or Dayton .. depending on what color 
the factory painted the machine .. and which
chainring was installed.

Those ''Dayton''- type axel adjusters are not 
found on each and every Yale machine ... but 
the residual blue-paint  .. as seen on the crank-
case, screams - YALE !!

The non-truss ''Dayton''- type fork ... as well as 
the Davis, truss and non-truss fork had been a 
factory option for the Yale motorbike since Davis 
bought the Yale and Snell marques from Consoli-
dated Mfg. Co. ... of Toledo ... in 1916.

If your next quest is a Yale badge for your machine ...
AVOID the screw-hole type.  Davis NEVER applied
a Yale badge on a Yale machine using screws.

A Yale badge with screw-holes is ALWAYS a post-
Davis, Shelby-Built thang.

Nice ride .......

........ patric*


----------



## Kato

Patric - Thank you very much for the info on the bike !!!
I wish it had the Yale badge.......and yep no smalls holes - it needs the button style.
I'm amazed how solid the bike is - wheels are crazy true and spin great........and brake works awesome.


----------



## hoofhearted

Goldenindian said:


> 1916 Hearsey Special:
> View attachment 352208 View attachment 352209 View attachment 352210 View attachment 352211




*I find that I do not tire looking at this machine.
It continues to be absolutely-beautiful to behold.
*
........ patric


----------



## cyclingday

I spent the day at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, and besides the Picasso & Diego Rivera exhibit, this old Dayton Cycles poster was one of the coolest things hanging on the walls.
Nothing short of magnificent!


----------



## Kato

Not mine but looking for any info - would be much appreciated.


----------



## hoofhearted

Kato said:


> Not mine but looking for any info - would be much appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 431091
> 
> View attachment 431092
> 
> View attachment 431093





*Kato ... that is a Shelby-Built Davis.  

Shelby purchased Davis sometime in or after 1923.

That frame could be badged as a Dayton or Yale ...
notice it has a Shelby, truss fork of the era.

That Davis badge was the final badge Davis used
on a bicycle from their factory.  It was originally 
of the bottle-cap variety.

....... patric*


----------



## Kato

Patric - Thanks as always for the incredible info.
I wasn't sure about the headbadge based on where the holes were - sort of at a weird spot at the bes of the circle / almost on the edge


----------



## hoofhearted

Kato said:


> Patric - Thank you very much for the info on the bike !!!
> I wish it had the Yale badge.......and yep no smalls holes - it needs the button style.
> I'm amazed how solid the bike is - wheels are crazy true and spin great........and brake works awesome.


----------



## oldwhizzer

12 or 13 Davis original paint black with red stripe or carmine ? as Patric calls it. I like the simple nature of it.


----------



## catfish




----------



## azbug-i

Mine is cruising on modern wheels. Harley davidson fenders. Im gonna be putting it up for sale though. I gotta thin the heard. Sucks to be letting go of so special a bike. If anyone is interested let me know!


----------



## cyclingday

Here's some fresh pictures of the 1918 Davis made, Harley Davidson Motorcyke.
Now outfitted with rideable rubber on its original rims.
Catalog correct, Long Hand Horn, Bridgeport frame pump,New Departure "Zoo Series" Turtle bell, Delta battery powered light kit, pre1923 Wald, jeweled glass reflector made in Sheboygan, Wisconsin.
Bulldog stitched leather grips, Troxel  Motorbike saddle & tool bag, & Veeder Trip Cyclometer.


----------



## Joe Buffardi

Oh my gawd!!!! I am so damn happy that this bike is in California and only 30 min. away from my house!!


----------



## azbug-i

Marty what a beaut!!!!!!


----------



## rustyspoke66

cyclingday said:


> View attachment 441904 View attachment 441905 View attachment 441906 Here's some fresh pictures of the 1918 Davis made, Harley Davidson Motorcyke.
> Now outfitted with rideable rubber on its original rims.
> Catalog correct, Long Hand Horn, Bridgeport frame pump,New Departure "Zoo Series" Turtle bell, Delta battery powered light kit, pre1923 Wald, jeweled glass reflector made in Sheboygan, Wisconsin.
> Bulldog stitched leather grips, Troxel  Motorbike saddle & tool bag, & Veeder Trip Cyclometer.



OK, I have to ask what is the ISO of the tires you put on there?


----------



## cyclingday

These tires are made specifically for these rims.
The fit is second to none.


----------



## azbug-i

Great price too!


----------



## rustyspoke66

Kewl, I just sent them a message asking what the ISO dimension is. They look like the older 635mm and all the G&J rims I have are 630mm.


----------



## rustyspoke66

Just a heads up your rims need to be 635mm ISO for the tires above. Easy way to check the rim is to take it to a bike shop and see what fits. 27" tires are a 630mm ISO. Like I said above most but not all of the early steel G&J clinchers are 630mm.


----------



## cyclingday

I tried 27" road bike tires,  but even they were not ideal for this type of rim. They were too narrow, and didn't seat properly.
The bead design that these rims were made for snapped in place underneath the edge of the rim, so that once mounted, the tire encases the tube, much like a single tube or sew up tire.
They are a little unruly to mount, but once the beads are snapped in place, they are very secure.
See examples above.


----------



## redline1968

I'm glad I bought and kept clincher rims sweet!


----------



## cyclingday




----------



## Goldenindian




----------



## Goldenindian

Found this today.


----------



## dave the wave

great ad glen.


----------



## cyclingday

Just to add to the narrative of this thread, I found these alphabet markings on the components of a 1918 Harley Davidson Motorcyke.


gator49 said:


> Great subject HD sprocket.
> I’ve had this sprocket since 1982. I think it’s a Davis frame serial number (02320) above that serial number looks to be a stamping of an upside down (7?) I will try to post some photos of the sprocket and crank. I would appreciate any information about the crank / is that a (B) or number (8)?
> Also notice an (A) stamped on the bearing race could this identify the year of the sprocket and crank?
> Thanks
> Dave


----------



## frankster41

Here is an original


----------



## Goldenindian

Got a tip from a fellow cabe friend. Badge holes look/are drilled after the fact. The bottle cap was sanded off. Thought I'd share.


----------



## corbettclassics

Goldenindian said:


> Got a tip from a fellow cabe friend. Badge holes look/are drilled after the fact. The bottle cap was sanded off. Thought I'd share.
> View attachment 674155




That's a nice version of the "Track Racer" model badge.  I wonder if it's earlier than mine.


----------



## Goldenindian

The bottle cap (which is gone) makes it 1914-1922....so I believe that is the earlier version. The one you pictured. 



Photo credit: hoofhearted.


----------



## rustyspoke66

Found this while surfing around the web wondering about the years that Davis was in operation. It came from a post card series book called Dayton.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Rustyspoke66 ... thank you for posting that pic. 

The building is still existent to this very day on Linden Ave.

..... patric*


----------



## rustyspoke66

Sweet! That might require a trip to Google Earth! So just out of curiosity is it possible or is there more evidence that I missed in the last 28 pages that Shelby bought Davis or did Davis use Shelby parts in there last days? It would be nice for all the interest in Davis if we could see the history pieced together and somehow installed at the beginning of the thread.
I missed this one https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/davis-sewing-machine-out-of-business-start-of-huffman-mfg.116405/


----------



## Goldenindian

Pretty current photo...I think some of it is artists spaces. I am gonna have to make the pilgrimage someday soon. Looks like such a cool place. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## scalptrader

Here's my original Davis. Check out warped wheel from a wet basement! Unmolested 














Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Goldenindian

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/davis-made-bicycles-“private-brands”-catalog.121921/


----------



## Oldnut

Goldenindian said:


> View attachment 678717 Pretty current photo...I think some of it is artists spaces. I am gonna have to make the pilgrimage someday soon. Looks like such a cool place. Thanks for sharing.View attachment 678716



I live 1 mile away in a historic district pass there all of the time been through the building it’s great


----------



## zephyrblau

is this a Davis chain ring ? looks like the one on the bike in post #404


----------



## fordsnake

I'm sorry for interrupting this thread, but I have a question about the Sears and Davis relationship? I'm currently researching an agreement between the British Sturmey Archer and Sears, Roebuck's. https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/sturmey-archer-tricoaster.122737/

There's evidence the S-A Tricoaster were standard and optional equipment on Daytons, Excelsior, and Chiefs, plus many other brands in 1915. If anyone has a Tricoaster rear hub without the large stamped ‘S’ please share a pic or info at the above link to avoid hijacking this thread.

On another note, I'd like to thank Chris (Chitown), who posted the bottom articles from a 1914 Sears catalog about a Sears factory?







I also found evidence that in 1914 the King Sewing Machine Co manufactured the S-A Tricoaster in Chicago (King was a subsidiary of Sears, Roebuck)!  Does anyone have any idea as to how many companies Sears contracted for their bicycle manufacturing?

Additionally, I found this interesting titbit about Sears acquiring the controlling interest of Davis...can anyone elaborate? How long did Sears owned Davis and when did they sell it or did they? Again, submit your response/s directly to https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/sturmey-archer-tricoaster.122737/ to avoid disrupting this thread.


----------



## hoofhearted

*

 *


----------



## shoe3




----------



## Goldenindian




----------



## ranman

dave the wave said:


> *NonPareil bicycle*
> 
> a few more.
> 
> View attachment 33348
> 
> View attachment 33349
> 
> View attachment 33350



Very nice Dave!!


----------



## redline1968

Guess this is a Dayton.. checked badge holes with a Elgin no go but a datonia badge holes are the same.... so its a 1917-20 20” datonia....:0 oh wrong fenders and a few other parts frame and fork wheels stand are good.


----------



## hoofhearted

redline1968 said:


> View attachment 734051 Guess this is a Dayton.. checked badge holes with a Elgin no go but a datonia badge holes are the same.... so its a 1917-20 20” datonia....:0 oh wrong fenders and a few other parts frame and fork wheels stand are good.




*Mark ... those li'l twenty-inchers look plenty cool
without any fenders ... 

I like the look of a Daytonia on a tiny Davis a bit 
more than Elgin Junior ... purely opinion.

..... patric



 *

*@redline1968*
*
Mark sorry about your loss by way of a theft 
at a swap, very recently.

Maybe receiving one o' these tiny 20-Tooth
Davis chainrings FREE with postage paid 
will benefit your soul !!

PM your mailing address to me, please .....

...... patric
*

*

 

*


----------



## redline1968

Nice


----------



## hoofhearted

*@redline1968*
*
Mark sorry about your loss by way of a theft 
at a swap, very recently.

Maybe receiving one o' these tiny 20-Tooth
Davis chainrings FREE with postage paid 
will benefit your soul !!



...... patric


TODAY  FOLLOWUP .....

Posted USPS Tracking Numbers in PM Feature just a
moment ago ........

...... patric

*


----------



## stezell

hoofhearted said:


> *@redline1968*
> *
> Mark sorry about your loss by way of a theft
> at a swap, very recently.
> 
> Maybe receiving one o' these tiny 20-Tooth
> Davis chainrings FREE with postage paid
> will benefit your soul !!
> 
> 
> 
> ...... patric
> 
> 
> TODAY  FOLLOWUP .....
> 
> Posted USPS Tracking Numbers in PM Feature just a
> moment ago ........
> 
> ...... patric
> *



Patric that's a very nice gesture. 
Sean


----------



## redline1968

Thanks your too kind Patric...it sucks but a important lesson to be learned.  Here is a pic of the 20” it looks to be a 14 “ frame


----------



## hoofhearted

zephyrblau said:


> is this a Davis chain ring ? looks like the one on the bike in post #404 View attachment 721342




*zephyrblau ... well that sure looks like a Davis-Built.

There are four main marques in the Davis line ...

Dayton ... with a ''lettered'' Dayton chainring. 
Yale ... with a ''lettered'' Yale chainring.
National ... with four circles like a shamrock.
Snell ... with 6-tapered spokes (and 6 drive-
pin hole).

....... patric



 

*


----------



## redline1968

Here’s a pic of the bike with crank setup... looks much better. Thanks Patric...


----------



## hoofhearted

redline1968 said:


> Here’s a pic of the bike with crank setup... looks much better. Thanks Patric...




*It sure does, Mark ... an authentic li'l jewel that machine is ....

..... patric*


----------



## redline1968

Thanks


----------



## removed

DAVIS MOTOR WHEEL?


----------



## hoofhearted

CRIPPLE said:


> DAVIS MOTOR WHEEL?


----------



## tripple3

hoofhearted said:


> View attachment 744627



*"Hey, move your foot, so we can picture the lil' chainring!"*
Thanks Patric.


----------



## removed

THAT LEATHER LOOKS STRETCHED


----------



## stezell

Just finished my 1923 Davis motobike as much as I can afford anyway, missing the dropstand.  Thanks to CeeBee, Decathlete, and markivpedalpusher for assistance with the bike and parts. I know this was the last year for Davis Sewing machine. Last picture is before, bag was to keep the seat dry.


----------



## Goldenindian

Great job!....cleaned up very nice.
Thanks for sharing the pictures.


----------



## Blue Streak

Dayton Racer - From a photo dated April 4, 1897:


----------



## hoofhearted

*Blue Streak ... added some horsepower to your
wonderful contributed foto of the Dayton Racer
dated April 4, 1897 ... and removed a horizontal
scratch running thru the foto, horizontally.

Great Foto !!

Thank You ....
..... patric



 
Foto Contribution >>> CABE Member Blue Streak

*


----------



## charnleybob

I got this at Memory Lane, 1898/99 Girls with the rear shock.
It came from Colorado.
It has been hanging up in a nice barn for 20+ years after arriving from Texas, delivered by Tim Gedders.


----------



## hoofhearted

charnleybob said:


> I got this at Memory Lane, 1898/99 Girls with the rear shock.
> It came from Colorado.
> It has been hanging up in a nice barn for 20+ years after arriving from Texas, delivered by Tim Gedders.





*That badge is a reproduction, Bob.  .....Well ... Not Really.

 What A Beauty That Machine Is !!!

  ..... patric*


----------



## charnleybob

Since this a Davis/Dayton thread, let me tell you another true story and set the record straight.
Since there a lot of new collectors, here's how the "Death bike" really got it's name.
It was 1989, at the Motel 6 in Ann Arbor, the night before the sunday spring meet.
Again, Tim Goeders ( Gedders?) Patric Cafaro, Phil Scott, and I were talking about bikes, etc, after a long week of the Feasel Meet in Fremont, the Saturday Memory Lane stop in Perrysburg, the Motel 6 parking lot swap, and getting rested for the next morning flash light event at Ann Arbor.
Tim was a information detective/picker/collector who liked to dig for information at old bike shops and employees, who at the time, had worked on balloon tire bikes in the '30's.
Patric and Phil were Davis/Dayton sponges of information that had been lost and forgotten for years.
This was all pre-internet days and collectors were on their own for what they could find out.
Somehow we got talking about the new improved 1938 spring suspension bike that Dayton was bringing out that year, but had suddenly disappeared and the company switched to the '39 Twin Flex as we know it today.
They advertised that bike, the new '39 Twin Flex, though it was May of 1938, trying to cover up a huge mistake.
In 1937, Huffman had exclusivity with the contract with Firestone.
When the new suspension Twin Flex failed almost immediately, this broke the contract and Firestone could sell other bikes, thus cutting what little profit Huffman was making at that time.
Super secret company records, which have since come out, show the company was close to bankruptcy caused by the new bike.
Back at Motel 6, we were talking about this and the idea came up that this bike almost killed the company and should be called the "Death bike"!
With alcohol and exhaustion, we agreed and another bike collector lexicon was born.
Nobody died on a " Death bike", the frames didn't blow apart or forks didn't break.
I would guess, upon later seeing the only example of this bike, the back and forth and side to side movement of the spring assembly probably threw the chain off.
That would be a repair nightmare for bike shops that sold them.
Another interesting side note is that they had the '39 Twin Flex up and going in 3 months and out the door, an amazing feat in its own.
Davis/Dayton, pre-23, were sturdy bikes.
The balloon tire period, things were a little more shaky.
I asked Horace Huffman, who I was privileged to meet in the '93-94 (?) of how many Twin Flex's were made?
He got this look like I just asked to borrow his wife and said " Those things were no damn good!"
I realized he was still thinking of the " Death bike" after all those years.
I said "No, the ones that came later."
He immediately calmed down and said about 4-5 thousand.


----------



## hoofhearted

*Bob ... you know I love hearin' you tell a story.

It's just as I remember it.   I do have one correc-
tion for your consideration -- you met Horace
M. Huffman, Jr., not in ''93-94'' ... but actually in
October of 1992.

Huffy was celebrating their ''Huffy 100'' in that 
year and month ... ''Davis / Huffy 1892 - 1992''.

Their own history indicates that Davis did indeed
build bicycles in 1892 ... however, none was the 
company's flagship until 1895 -- with the introduc-
tion of The Dayton ... their top-drawer machine.

Thank YOU -- Bob, for steppin' up and stating the
the facts just exactly as they happened.

..... patric





 
^^^  This 1895 Badge Logo was used in the Huffy 100 Celebration




 *


----------



## charnleybob

Yea, you're right.
I flew to Dayton, then we went to fall ML meet.
When I flew home, Omaha was buried by an early blizzard.
Gee Pat, that was only 26 years ago!


----------



## charnleybob




----------



## charnleybob




----------



## charnleybob




----------



## charnleybob




----------



## charnleybob




----------



## charnleybob




----------



## hoofhearted

*



 *


----------



## charnleybob




----------



## charnleybob




----------



## charnleybob




----------



## charnleybob




----------



## Goldenindian

Dayton/Yale catalogs for 1921! Enjoy 
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/dayton-yale-catalogs-for-1921.137279/


----------



## mrsmith35sg

Were there ever green fenders on a  Davis Sewing carmine bike? I feel like I read this somewhere in this thread, but I can't find.


----------



## hoofhearted

mrsmith35sg said:


> Were there ever green fenders on a  Davis Sewing carmine bike? I feel like I read this somewhere in this thread, but I can't find.
> 
> View attachment 888307




@mrsmith35sg ... I've never heard of a thing like this ...
but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Davis built machines not for the good it would do them ..
but they were built to sell at a profit.  Could be the original
owner asked for some ''custom'' fenders -- at an upcharge,
of course.

Could be the original owner worked at the Davis plant ...

Do these fenders look like they are original to the factory.

You pose a good question, young man.

Thanks .....

..... patric

Factory lit indicates the Dayton bicycle was offered in
Carmine or Black, only.

When you have time ... howza 'bout splashin' some more
fotos of your machine in this thread ?   Thanks ......


----------



## redline1968

I’ve seen that bike many years ago at a swpmeet. It’s pieced together with Dayton parts.  its for sale  for 1200 on wash craigslist .... :0 :0... 


mrsmith35sg said:


> Were there ever green fenders on a  Davis Sewing carmine bike? I feel like I read this somewhere in this thread, but I can't find.
> 
> View attachment 888307


----------



## mrsmith35sg

You sir are correct - that's actually why I was asking about it. I need a "more original" Dayton than my 1919 that's been repainted for my Dayton history themed bar and restaurant.



redline1968 said:


> I’ve seen that bike many years ago at a swpmeet. It’s pieced together with Dayton parts.  its for sale  for 1200 on wash craigslist .... :0 :0...




And thank you hoofhearted for the input!


----------



## cyclingday

I've been thinning out the picture archive, and I thought I'd post this one here for posterity.
1918 Davis made Harley-Davidson, 2018
100 years old and still rolling!


----------



## hoofhearted

@cyclingday  ... young man, I took the liberty
of adding a wee-bit of horsepower to the foto
of your 1918 H-D _Motorcyke._

Can remove at your request.

..... patric


*If any readers would like to give this a ''like'' ... give it to cyclingday  in Entry #600, above.*


----------



## cyclingday

Thank you, Patric.
It's an honor to have ones photograph selected for additional horsepower.


----------



## catfish

Here is am orange one.


----------



## catfish




----------



## hoofhearted

cyclingday said:


> Thank you, Patric.
> It's an honor to have ones photograph selected for additional horsepower.





*Marty ... as long as you provide wonderful fotos
of your beautiful machines ... I remain vigilant
and on the ready to add as much horsepower
as I can squeeze in.*


----------



## hoofhearted

catfish said:


> _...... Showing fotos of a lovely Davis-Napoleon ......_
> 
> Very nice ....


----------



## mrsmith35sg

Could any of you lovely people who have their seat tube "Davis-Made" decal - get a measurement? 

The great Gus - Gus Salmon Decals, is looking at recreating that one.


----------



## barracuda

mrsmith35sg said:


> Could any of you lovely people who have their seat tube "Davis-Made" decal - get a measurement?
> 
> The great Gus - Gus Salmon Decals, is looking at recreating that one.




I made one some time ago, traced directly from a Davis frame:


----------



## tripple3

Hey, I saw 1 of those HD bicycles at Wahoos today!
on the 100th Anniversary Vets' Day ride at Circle City.



owner Marty @cyclingday


----------



## mrsmith35sg

This is awesome - thank you! also looking for the circular davis made icon



barracuda said:


> I made one some time ago, traced directly from a Davis frame:
> 
> View attachment 899547


----------



## shoe3

1896 ad.


----------



## Axlerod

It’s not original but here is my Davis with a “The National” bottle cap headbadge.


----------



## shoe3

So cool National!


----------



## shoe3




----------



## shoe3

I need a reasonable priced Davis badge! Even if it is shiza looking, for Tim Robbins bike.


----------



## Balloontyre

Sumptin' for the Davis archives.
Maybe someone can I.D. The badge.


----------



## Freqman1

Balloontyre said:


> Sumptin' for the Davis archives.
> Maybe someone can I.D. The badge.
> View attachment 918407



Looks like a "Liberty" badge? V/r Shawn


----------



## hoofhearted

*Bicycle also sports the Davis-Built Racing Fork.*

*


*


----------



## Goldenindian

Not sure what ever happened to this bicycle..but awhile back this Davis liberty showed up. 


Photo credit:hoofhearted.

The liberty badge goes from red-white-blue behind the writing....I don’t see that in the arch bar photo....so probably something bifferent then liberty.


----------



## Balloontyre

Davis liberty, I dunno 'bout that. Badge Looks very Schwinny


----------



## catfish

barracuda said:


> I made one some time ago, traced directly from a Davis frame:
> 
> View attachment 899547




Do you have any more of these?


----------



## Goldenindian

Could be a lot of “jobbers” that used that same badge template. I have seen others badges as well...”Famous” is another I believe. Could be one we have never seen. Really to bad the photograph is so clear.


----------



## corbettclassics

hoofhearted said:


> *Bicycle also sports the Davis-Built Racing Fork.*
> 
> *View attachment 918408*
> 
> View attachment 918409




I haven't seen that picture before showing the "Racing Fork".   

Here it is on one of my Factory Racers.


----------



## Rust_Trader

Edit: @hoofhearted


----------



## hoofhearted

@Balloontyre   and  @Goldenindian

*Don't know what to think or say 'bout the 
Davis Motorbike foto posted by Goldenindian.*

*Am remembering that these LIBERTY badges
were distributed by Chicago Cycle Supply Co.  *

*As such .. is it possible that this company distributed 
Davis merchandise .. as well as Schwinn merchandise ?*

*I don't know much about Chicago Cycle Supply Co. .......
and what marques they dealt in.*

*Uh-Oh ... Now am having mixed reactions to the VICTOR
badge  that I suggested is on that Davis archbar.*

*The ''light'' color within that archbar badge is (opinion)
a wee-bit too light for the badge to be a Davis - VICTOR.*

*Look at the Davis-VICTOR badge, again. *

*That green backfill looks a bunch darker than the much-
lighter backfill on the archbar badge.*

*Here's where I stand so far ... ''two plus two equals three''.*

*Anyhoo ..... peep these pics, please .........*


*

*


----------



## hoofhearted

*@Rust_Trader *

*Thank You for posting your wonderful*
*H-D ring and crank !!*

*It is one of the most beautiful, original*
*and honestly-used relics I've seen.*

*..... patric*


----------



## hoofhearted

@Balloontyre and @Goldenindian

*Yarr !! .....Hit the Brakes -- Throw It In Reverse -- Drop Anchor ........*

*Is it at all possible that the archbar foto presented by Balloontyre ...
and the motorbike foto presented by Goldenindian (both bicycles being 
Davis-Built) AND each sporting what MAY be Liberty badges ................*

*......... Is it at all possible that each of these badges MAY feature ''champlevé '' 
technology (?) .... AND ... these champlevé-types were placed on Davis-Built
bicycles distributed by Chicago Cycle Supply Co. ?*

*Entry #625 (above) shows the possibility of several Liberty badges ... two of
them possibly featuring champlevé technology.*

*Is it possible the ''paint-backfill'' Liberty goes on a Schwinn-Built .. distributed
by Chicago Cycle Supply Co.  ?*

*I would love to know more about the variety of retail-offerings presented by
Chicago Cycle Supply Co. *..


----------



## Balloontyre

J. Edgar Hoover 1907


----------



## Goldenindian

hoofhearted said:


> @Balloontyre and @Goldenindian
> 
> *Yarr !! .....Hit the Brakes -- Throw It In Reverse -- Drop Anchor ........*
> 
> *Is it at all possible that the archbar foto presented by Balloontyre ...
> and the motorbike foto presented by Goldenindian (both bicycles being
> Davis-Built) AND each sporting what MAY be Liberty badges ................*
> 
> *......... Is it at all possible that each of these badges MAY feature ''champlevé ''
> technology (?) .... AND ... these champlevé-types were placed on Davis-Built
> bicycles distributed by Chicago Cycle Supply Co. ?*
> 
> *Entry #625 (above) shows the possibility of several Liberty badges ... two of
> them possibly featuring champlevé technology.*
> 
> *Is it possible the ''paint-backfill'' Liberty goes on a Schwinn-Built .. distributed
> by Chicago Cycle Supply Co.  ?*
> 
> *I would love to know more about the variety of retail-offerings presented by
> Chicago Cycle Supply Co. *..



The source is very blurry and hard to make out but this 1918 Yale advertisement..Does say  Chicago cycle supply..... so they must’ve had some relationship with Davis.



Most of these company’s sold Dayton’s or Yale’s but also had a line of bicycle badged with there company....And were Davis made.


----------



## Goldenindian

Some more “hardware store/store” names that disrtibuted Dayton’s...but also had Davis made bicycles with there own company name. For example Beckley and Ralston sold Dayton’s but also had a line of Beckley and Ralston badged bicycles that were Davis made..etc


----------



## hoofhearted

@Goldenindian

*Glenn ... here is a magnification (as best I could) of the
1918 YALE ad with the distributor's of those machines.*

*I believe your discovery holds much significance.*

*BTW  ... am referring to your contribution in Entry #629 ...*

*Thank you - Glenn ....*

*>>>>> In addition ... it has long, been accepted that the LIBERTY 
badge has a Schwinn association.   Some believe this association 
is exclusively .Schwinn. *

*>>>>> I am not ready to proclaim that the LIBERTY badges that 
have champlevé .features,. were originally placed on Davis-Built 
machines by the Chicago Cycle Supply Co. , of Chicago. .......... *


*>>>>> Instead ...I will let time, and exposure to more period 
information ... possibly cause a paradigm-shift within the more 
flexible and open-minded membership.*

*..... patric*


----------



## Balloontyre

From out late friend Howie Cowen.
Good stuff.

https://www.proteanpaper.com/scart_results.cgi?comp=howiebik&part= CatAntqDist-c35.e

1923 ChiCyCo catalog shows Shelby, BSA
Some bikes have distinct Schwinn characteristics. Is it possible that ChiCyCo bought out remaining stock of other manufacturers?
@hoofhearted look at that Shelby Moto frame, is that a butt ugly Davis?


----------



## Balloontyre

From: Shelbycyclehistory.Org
This ties Shelby to ChiCyCo.

*1921* Shelby Cycle Frame Builders formed by A.D. Meiselbach of Chicago. A.D. Meiselbach becomes general manager. He was also superintendent of the Mead Cycle Co. of Chicago. He owned a bicycle company about 1900 in Milwaukee which was taken over by American Bicycle Company trust. Typewriter one of his efforts.
*1922* Shelby Cycle Frame Builders Co. opened April 24, made forks and frames, located in former Shelby Lamp Works building on the corner of Mack.
*1923* May – Joe Seltzer closes deal with Chicago Cycle Supply Co. to supply Meiselbach frames for a Shelby branded bike


----------



## hoofhearted

Balloontyre said:


> From: Shelbycyclehistory.Org
> This ties Shelby to ChiCyCo.
> 
> *1921* Shelby Cycle Frame Builders formed by A.D. Meiselbach of Chicago. A.D. Meiselbach becomes general manager. He was also superintendent of the Mead Cycle Co. of Chicago. He owned a bicycle company about 1900 in Milwaukee which was taken over by American Bicycle Company trust. Typewriter one of his efforts.
> *1922* Shelby Cycle Frame Builders Co. opened April 24, made forks and frames, located in former Shelby Lamp Works building on the corner of Mack.
> *1923* May – Joe Seltzer closes deal with Chicago Cycle Supply Co. to supply Meiselbach frames for a Shelby branded bike




@Balloontyre 

*These are wonderful finds (above) from Shelbycyclehistory.Org., Ivo.*

*Just 'cause readers may want to see some Meiselbach badges,
here they be.*

*Thank you for your contribution, Ivo.*

*..... patric*


----------



## hoofhearted

Balloontyre said:


> From out late friend Howie Cowen.
> Good stuff.
> 
> https://www.proteanpaper.com/scart_results.cgi?comp=howiebik&part= CatAntqDist-c35.e
> 
> 1923 ChiCyCo catalog shows Shelby, BSA
> Some bikes have distinct Schwinn characteristics. Is it possible that ChiCyCo bought out remaining stock of other manufacturers?
> 
> @hoofhearted look at that Shelby Moto frame, is that a butt ugly Davis? ***




@Balloontyre and  @Goldenindian

*I do believe some bikes have distinct Schwinn characteristics.*

*The Davis-YALE ad of 1918 (posted by @Goldenindian , above) indicates
Chicago Cycle Supply Co. to be one of numerous distributors of Davis
products.*

*Folding sometime in 1923 .. maybe 1924 .. Davis was not sold to Shelby Cycle Co.
until 1924 or after.  *

*I believe Chicago Cycle Supply Co. LIBERTY badges ( with the champlevé features)
may have been placed on Davis-Built machines long before (or at the same time) 
Shelby machines carried the same LIBERTY badges.*

*Now ... the above is what I believe.  Certainly have no hardcore expectations that 
others share in my belief.*

**After peeping the documentation you presented above, Ivo ... and magnifying that
Shelby Moto frame using my laptop ''tool'' app (the  1923 Howie Cowen document 
will not allow me to copy to my laptop) ... I have seen a few tells that the Shelby Moto 
is a Shelby-Built ... and not a Davis-Built.*

**The biggest tell for me is seen in the gentle downward bend in the top bar of each
Davis-Built.  The Shelby Moto top bar downward bend is much more sudden ... 'tho
not as sudden and crisp as the top bar bend often seen on a Westfield-Built Moto.*

**The Shelby Moto features rain-gutter fenders having half-inch dropsides ... and
has a Shelby-Built dropstand.  Could not clearly see detail in the truss fork of the
Shelby Moto.*

*Here are some visuals the reader may want to consider .......*







*^^^ NOTE ... Half-Inch Dropsides on Fenders and Davis Pierced-Ears on Dropstand.*

















*Formerly ... my 1917 Davis-Built Moto ... Now in Buffalo, NY*


----------



## fat tire trader

Goldenindian said:


> Some more “hardware store/store” names that disrtibuted Dayton’s...but also had Davis made bicycles with there own company name. For example Beckley and Ralston sold Dayton’s but also had a line of Beckley and Ralston badged bicycles that were Davis made..etcView attachment 918704



Does anyone know anything about W. E. & W.H. Jackson San Francisco?

I have this frame





with this badge






Thanks,
Chris


----------



## catfish




----------



## redline1968

Dayton. H-D ....DNA?....exclusive?...    .......


----------



## hoofhearted

redline1968 said:


> Dayton. H-D ....DNA?....exclusive?...    .......



@redline1968


----------



## redline1968

Hmm.... saw them on other HD’s  interesting .....why is that? Oh what’s up with the button on top of the fender


----------



## hoofhearted

redline1968 said:


> Hmm.... saw them on other HD’s  interesting .....why is that?
> 
> Oh what’s up with the button on top of the fender




Was my response NOT worth a LIKE ? 
I toss them about in abundance .. even for those that show minimal participation ...... 
You will know why your LIKE COUNT is High ...  I been clickin' .......


*Not gonna answer the ''BUTTON'' question just yet.*

*I know what it is for ... but lettuce all take a moment
to consider just what is that button for.  ..... (?)*

*Thinking Caps On ... Ready ? ... GO ................*


----------



## redline1968

There’s been 2 orig examples.....one (boys)...that was sold here and one (girls)that posted on the oldeu website both have the same fender braces.... both original HD bikes......


----------



## redline1968

Button button who has the button...why?


----------



## hoofhearted

redline1968 said:


> Button button who has the button...why?





*Dood ... c'mon, now .... process some thought ...
don't worry about being right or wrong ... let's problem solve.*

*Could that fender ever have an issue ... if that little boss weren't there ?*

*My questions Are Open to Anyone and Everyone .....*


----------



## cyclingday

The button provides a bumper off the fork crown to keep the fender aligned with the radius of the front wheel.
It is needed, because the front fender is held to the fork crown by a J hook that clips around a bridge post inside the fork steer tube.
The button on the fender allows you to tighten the nut on the J hook and keeps the fender from just pulling itself flat against the bottom of the fork crown.
So, in short, the button is vital for the Davis hanging J hook fender mount system.


----------



## hoofhearted

cyclingday said:


> The button provides a bumper off the fork crown to keep the fender aligned with the radius of the front wheel.
> It is needed, because the front fender is held to the fork crown by a J hook that clips around a bridge post inside the fork steer tube.
> The button on the fender allows you to tighten the nut on the J hook and keeps the fender from just pulling itself flat against the bottom of the fork crown.
> So, in short, the button is vital for the Davis hanging J hook fender mount system.





*Well .. Hell's Bells *@cyclingday .... *I Didn't Know THAT!!*

*Thank you for your response, young man ....*

*Thanks also to *@redline1968 * and others who saw fit to click a LIKE my way.*

*I participate like a Howlin' Sicilian Banshee when I get a LIKE ... I believe you know** I Deliver.*

*..... patric*


----------



## cyclingday

My pleasure, Patric.
 I must admit, that the first time I saw the Davis fender mount arrangement, I had no idea what it was and where it all went.
I turned the bike upside down to look at the serial number and the J hook fell out of the fork.
I didn't know what it was or where it came from.
I thought the button was some kind of an alignment peg that went inside the steer tube opening.
But, as soon as I started to assemble the bike, it all became obvious how it was supposed to go together.


----------



## redline1968

I like others to work for me ...why work when you can ask..:0.....so....... that clinches it it ....is a DNA for Davis.....so if it’s not there it’s a Dayton fender?


----------



## Goldenindian

redline1968 said:


> There’s been 2 orig examples.....one (boys)...that was sold here and one (girls)that posted on the oldeu website both have the same fender braces.... both original HD bikes......View attachment 919274
> View attachment 919275



Not just a Harley trait. My Hearsay Special has this front brace. Also provided a good picture of the “button” found on all Davis front fenders.


----------



## hoofhearted

cyclingday said:


> My pleasure, Patric.
> 
> I must admit, that the first time I saw the Davis fender mount arrangement, I had no idea what it was and where it all went.
> I turned the bike upside down to look at the serial number and the J hook fell out of the fork.
> I didn't know what it was or where it came from.
> I thought the button was some kind of an alignment peg that went inside the steer tube opening.
> But, as soon as I started to assemble the bike, it all became obvious how it was supposed to go together.




@cyclingday

*Marty ... I had a similar experience.  *

*When that J-Hook fell out and hit the tarmac ..
I freaked ..... but was happy knowing it didn't fly 
under the refrigerator.*

*Went to re-assemble ... Yarr !! ... everything is back 
where it's supposed .. 'cept the J-Hook Washer and
Nut.*

*Lost a lotta Religion tryin' to get that nut to ''start'' onto 
the threads of the J-Hook ... ( also had a bunch o' trouble 
placing the hook of the J-Hook over the little horizontal 
rod that goes thru the base of the steer-tube).*

*Everytime I went to thread and tighten --- that J-Hook 
would pop Off and Away.*

*What To Do ?? What to do ....*

*Found a wood dowel a bit smaller than the I.D. of that steer-tube.*

*Glued (Elmer's) the curve of the J-Hook to the bottom of the 
dowel ... like the threads were the tip of a spear.  Allowed to dry.*

*After I placed ALL the fork parts together .. Shoved the dowel 
into the steer-tube ... threads of J-Hook first ... aligned the inner 
curve of that J-Hook  with the horizontal-rod at the base of the 
steer-tube... and pressed down on the dowel .... in the direction 
of those J-Hook threads.*

*Fit the washer .. fit the nut ... gave it a spin ...tightened ... removed
the dowel from the steer-tube (with a li'l effort .. it's glued).*

*Wha-La  ... Happiness At Last ....*

*..... patric*


----------



## redline1968

Davis or Dayton specific...I see a lot of fenders without it claimed as Davis....then it’s not without the button?
Could it be a certain time frame when the pierced brace used or just a “end of day” quickie  or a special order part for certain bikes.


----------



## Goldenindian

Well...they are all International Stamping fenders.... but Davis is the only company that had the “button” as a feature. Other company’s used international stamping. One example is Miami. The front fender on a deep drop-side Miami fender has no button, a shorter nose in length, and front double brace. Yet both came from international stamping.


----------



## hoofhearted

redline1968 said:


> Davis or Dayton specific...I see a lot of fenders without it claimed as Davis....then it’s not without the button?




*Mark ... From my experience ... that fender button is 
supposed to be on EACH and EVERY Davis-Built bicycle.*
Early-Flat .. and Later-Deep fenders, included.

*Dayton .. Yale .. H-D .. Dixie Flyer .. Liberty ... Chief ... 
Mumford & Sons Hardware Store ... *

*That fender button is supposed to be in attendance on
ALL Davis-Builts.*

*SAME for that ''punch and spread'' feature on the Davis
fender brace.*

*I have never seen 100% participation on that ''punch and 
spread'' feature ... but that fender button ... If it's not there
it's not a Davis.*

*Don't know why or when that ''punch and spread'' feature 
is sometimes absent.  Never did see a pattern.*

*KEEP in Mind ... Have never seen any mention of the 
''punch and spread'' technology OR .. any mention of the
benefit of the fender button in Davis Lit ....*

*NOW ... I am sure someone is gonna show a '' Davis Fender''
that never had a fender button ... and believe they got somethin'
RARE ... oh, it may be rare ... but (my opinion) Hardly Desirable.*

*I would have a button made and attached to any Davis fender 
that has one missing.*

*..... patric*

*Holy Crap ... it's 10:30 p.m. in SW Ohio ... still gotta go out and 
catch a possum tonight ... for the possum stew we have for breakfast
every Saturday mornin' ......... G' night .. All.*

*And thank you for those LIKES ... Hope each of you believes I earned every one.*


----------



## redline1968

Thank ....clears up some questions and possibly educate a few... I’m purely visual person I can’t remember anything told or written after a day...I have to read it many times to retain...... past car accident... ...


----------



## hoofhearted

redline1968 said:


> Thanks ....clears up some questions and possibly educate a few...
> I’m purely visual person I can’t remember anything told or written
> after a day...I have to read it many times to retain...... past car accident... ...




@redline1968 

Mark ... I'm glad you're with us.

You DO come up with some great questions ...
and always have great relics to show us.

You are appreciated, young man !!

..... patric


----------



## gator49

Anyone have photos of the j hook, washer and nut that attach the Davis front fender with the button on it? As described by cyclingday entry #645-647 and hoofheard entry #650 
Dave


----------



## Dayton Vintage Speed

I need help with identification of a frame that belongs to my friend @Foxclassics. It's a bit rusty but I think it can be salvaged. I believe it to be either a Davis or maybe Shelby built bike after they purchased the Davis remains. Here's the subject at hand. 










I cleaned off the Bottom Bracket and found no serial number. 





Now here's why I believe it's a Davis or a post Davis buyout Shelby. I compared it to a known Davis frame I have and I noticed these similarities right away. 





The dropouts are identical.





These braze seam locations are identical.









All this really peaked my interest in identifying this frame.


----------



## Dayton Vintage Speed

And here are things I noticed that are different between the two frames





I overlaid the two frames to get a visual comparison. The light grey and maroon frame is my Davis frame. You can see the difference in seat mast angle and seat stay length and angle. You can also see the head tube lengths are slightly different.





I noticed differences between the thickness and shapes of the seat stay tubes. 





The chain stays have differences as well. You can see the tighter sharper bends on the the rusty frame we're trying to identify. For the most part this and minor frame dimension differences are all that stuck out. I found some oddities in the chain stay cross supports. 





The rusty bike has a single hole in it's cross support. It's not a through hole so I don't believe it to be a fender mount. And the seat stay cross support has no holes in it at all. 

You can see the cross supports are slightly different from frame to frame in size mostly. Shape and construction are very similar. This is an odd one! Anyone know or have an idea on this rusty wheelers I.D.?

@hoofhearted


----------



## hoofhearted

gator49 said:


> Anyone have photos of the j hook, washer and nut that attach the Davis front fender with the button on it?
> As described by cyclingday entry #645-647 and hoofheard entry #650
> Dave


----------



## hoofhearted

Dayton Vintage Speed said:


> I need help with identification of a frame that belongs to my friend @Foxclassics. It's a bit rusty but I think it can be salvaged. I believe it to be either a Davis or maybe Shelby built bike after they purchased the Davis remains.





*TIM ROBBINS ..... Am not quite sure, yet ........*

*The gray / maroon Davis DOES have very-
square shoulders on the crankcase cups. *

*Very Davis.*

*Still ... am not sure about the rusted relic ...*

*May never be sure ... but the thought is sure 
to roll around in my noggin for a while.*

*Sorry fellas .......*

*..... patric*

*I did have one light-bulb moment ......*











*The Uppermost Foto posted by *@Dayton Vintage Speed 
*(in this entry) ... Instantly **took me right back to my 
Memory of a 1976 Dingo Boot Magazine Ad .....*

*Despite the many varied Labyrinths we encounter ......
Connectivity Often Electrifies a Light-Bulb.


*


----------



## hoofhearted

*Whoa !!  ... Holy Ghost Power Flooded me with TENACITY **!!  *

*How embarrassing ... recently found out the meaning of the word ... then misspelled it when I wrote early this morning.   The spelling has been corrected ... but  I swear ... I could just hurl.  .........,,SPELLING CORRECTED ... Today 10:20 a.m.*

*NO JOKE   ... had just about given up with the mystery of the rusty frame/fork *
*belonging to my budz, TIM FOX ... and presented by my budz, TIM ROBBINS ........*

*The ''Tell'' is the fork of *@Foxclassics . *rusty frame/fork.*
*That machine is a Shelby-Built DAVIS.*

Kept the Faith ... embraced the search  ................













.


----------



## Foxclassics

hoofhearted said:


> *Whoa !! ... Holy Ghost Power Flooded me with TANACITY **!!*
> 
> *NO JOKE ... had just about given up with the mystery of the rusty frame/fork *
> *belonging to my budz, TIM FOX ... and presented by my budz, TIM ROBBINS ........*
> 
> *The ''Tell'' is the fork of *@Foxclassics . *rusty frame/fork.*
> *That machine is a Shelby-Built DAVIS.*
> 
> Kept the Faith ... embraced the search ................
> 
> 
> View attachment 919925
> 
> View attachment 919926
> 
> View attachment 919927.



Sweet! Thanks Patric!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Foxclassics

Here's a picture of the whole bicycle. 



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## hoofhearted

*


*


----------



## cyclingday

I'm sure these questions have been asked before, but!
 Shelby built Davis kind of sounds like an oxymoron.
Davis folded and sold all assets to the Shelby Cycle Company.
Did Shelby badge any of the bikes they built as being Davis made, or did they just continue using the house brand type badges that Davis had been using?
Dayton, National, Snell, Yale, etc.
How long did this arrangement last?
Forgive me, if these questions trigger that nagging migraine of redundancy.


----------



## Dayton Vintage Speed

cyclingday said:


> I'm sure these questions have been asked before, but!
> Shelby built Davis kind of sounds like an oxymoron.
> Davis folded and sold all assets to the Shelby Cycle Company.
> Did Shelby badge any of the bikes they built as being Davis made, or did they just continue using the house brand type badges that Davis had been using?
> Dayton, National, Snell, Yale, etc.
> How long did this arrangement last?
> Forgive me, if these questions trigger that nagging migraine of redundancy.





Great question! I have wandered that same thing myself.


----------



## gator49

@hoofhearted
Now i understand the horizontal rod at the base of the steer-tube. The washer and nut goes under the fender
Thanks
Dave


----------



## Balloontyre

Lots of coolness.
@hoofhearted


----------



## chitown

Just here to throw a wrench in some spokes.


----------



## Oldnut

chitown said:


> Just here to throw a wrench in some spokes.
> View attachment 929559


----------



## Oldnut

Yes it did thanks


----------



## Dayton Vintage Speed

Not understanding.  What wrenches or who's spokes? 

It looks like, from this article, that this was all taking part around the time that the Davis Sewing machine company was about to be liquidated anyway. The Huffman's were getting into manufacturing bicycle components and industrial machine supplies around that time and separating themselves from the Davis Sewing Machine Company. This looks like nothing more than Excelsior buying some of the machinery from the Huffman's and getting a guarantee to be without competition from them for 5 years. I guess I don't understand how this is supposed to throw a wrench in anything? What am I missing here?


----------



## Balloontyre




----------



## chitown

Dayton Vintage Speed said:


> It looks like, from this article, that this was all taking part around the time that the Davis Sewing machine company was about to be liquidated anyway. The Huffman's were getting into manufacturing bicycle components and industrial machine supplies around that time and separating themselves from the Davis Sewing Machine Company. This looks like nothing more than Excelsior buying some of the machinery from the Huffman's and getting a guarantee to be without competition from them for 5 years. I guess I don't understand how this is supposed to throw a wrench in anything? What am I missing here?




I guess because I've never seen any documentation of Davis Sewing liquidating equipment to Shelby. I thought this was all just shell games & Huffman Mfg formed to liquidate Davis. Why would he agree not to manufacture bicycles if he was only making certain parts. The competition would have been through Davis Sewing machine using your presumption, but they were already liquidated. Do you have anything showing how a Shelby made Davis?




shoe3 said:


> *Horace Huffman* had worked in the business since 1900 and by *1922* he was in charge of liquidating the assets of The Davis Sewing Machine Company. He used the profits from the liquidation to form the Huffman Manufacturing Company. The Davis Sewing Machine Company had survived 30 years in the bike industry, but were finished by *1922*.
> 
> In *1924* Horace Huffman was put in charge of liquidating the companies machinery . At this time, the company employed 1,800 workers. Huffman used the funds to create the Huffman Manufacturing Company.
> 
> The Davis Company was purchased by the *National Sewing Machine Company. *The remaining Davis bike inventory was sold through 1925
> 
> View attachment 664812
> 1924 New York Times
> Huffman Mfg. liquidated bicycle parts and machinery 1924 era and Shelby Bicycles bought the majority of them.                                                I have noticed over the years Shelby Bicycles with with Davis Dayton,Ohio parts and Davis Dayton,Ohio bicycle with Shelby parts. Remember these folks were in business to sell bicycles not for us collectors to see if original catalog spec. correct.




So much of that innovation was during 1880 through the 1920's. Much of it because of the bicycle.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Dayton Vintage Speed

chitown said:


> I guess because I've never seen any documentation of Davis Sewing liquidating equipment to Shelby. I thought this was all just shell games & Huffman Mfg formed to liquidate Davis. Why would he agree not to manufacture bicycles if he was only making certain parts. The competition would have been through Davis Sewing machine using your presumption, but they were already liquidated. Do you have anything showing how a Shelby made Davis?





I thought Davis wasn't totally liquidated until 1924? No I do not have any documentation on a Shelby made Davis? But it is widely speculated that Shelby was one of the many companies that purchased part of Davis during its liquidation. So I've always been under the assumption that Davis's bicycle line was liquidated to several different companies. It's not uncommon at all when a company is liquidated that the company(s) that purchase them make stipulations or demands that keep the previous proprietary from entering back into competition with them for X amount of time. It wouldn't shock me if some of the new proprietors had stipulations to keep Huffman from building bikes for nearly a decade. Might be why the Huffman's didn't build a bike again until the mid 1930's. Could have also been the depression. I don't know. It would be interesting to find all of the company's that did jump onboard the Davis liquidation bandwagon. I've also wandered what parts the Huffman's were allowed to still manufacture? That's a very interesting article either way.


----------



## Dayton Vintage Speed

Looks as though the plant wasn't sold until 1924.





I don't understand why the article @chitown presented states that Excelsior absorbed the Huffman manufacturing company and Not Davis! Was Huffman no longer affiliated with Davis by 1922? When was Huffman manufacturing started?? Anyone know???


----------



## Dayton Vintage Speed

Ok boys and girls! This isn't making any sense to me at all now. I hope someone can explain this one!!  @chitown post an article he found stating Excelsior buys out Huffman manufacturing in August 1922. I just found and article from July 1922 from motorcycle and bicycle illustrated talking about Huffman manufacturing incorporating the month before the article chitown posted. ????????

Here's page 8 and 9 from that magazine.


----------



## Dayton Vintage Speed

Found this interesting. Crazy to think that the Davis company was doing so well in 1922 but would be liquidated in less than two years. 


From September 7 1922 of motorcycle and bicycle illustrated.


----------



## chitown

I think there might have been some stock fraud, sicilian mob style going on. One of those two stocks listed by HW Dubiske & Co did well while the other not so much. Huffman family got out just in time.




chitown said:


> I think he may have been hanging out at 220 South State Street a lot.
> 
> View attachment 526717
> 
> When did Davis file for bankruptcy? Because in Chicago they were being pushed as an investment as late as March of 1922.
> 
> Looks like the DiGiorgio Fruit Corporation did well with it's investments (some based in Sicily)
> 
> http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/di-giorgio-corp-history/
> 
> By 1929 the company had the largest fruit-packing plant in the nation. A branch railway line serving Arvin was built to provide shipping facilities for Di Giorgio and other fruit growers. The end of prohibition in 1933 enabled Di Giorgio Fruit to expand grape production, and it took a sizable equity position in California wineries, including its own Del Vista Wine Co.


----------



## hoofhearted

*A Special THANK YOU to @chitown   and @Dayton Vintage Speed 
for supplying valuable input and insight to this thread.  Also Special
THANK YOU to *@Balloontyre *for posting some Killermonjaro Fotos.
It's members like you who keep Forums like the CABE alive and kicking.*

*Here's the BIG PICTURE of what I have gathered from YOUR recent entries ...
Excelsior Manuf. Co. received the machinery and tooling to manufacture
bicycles, from the Davis Factory .. AND .. Shelby Manuf. Co. received the
bicycle and frame components and raw tubing and so on, from Davis.*

*More of your stuff with my two cents added ....*


----------



## Dayton Vintage Speed

hoofhearted said:


> *A Special THANK YOU to @chitown   and @Dayton Vintage Speed
> for supplying valuable input and insight to this thread.  Also Special
> THANK YOU to *@Balloontyre *for posting some Killermonjaro Fotos.
> It's members like you who keep Forums like the CABE alive and kicking.*
> 
> *Here's the BIG PICTURE of what I have gathered from YOUR recent entries ...
> Excelsior Manuf. Co. received the machinery and tooling to manufacture
> bicycles, from the Davis Factory .. AND .. Shelby Manuf. Co. received the
> bicycle and frame components and raw tubing and so on, from Davis.*





Patric, I more took it as Excelsior bought bicycle manufacturing equipment from Huffman not Davis. I'd like to know how much the Huffman's were involved with Davis by 1922, it at all. What I gathered from the articles is that Huffman incorporated a company that was thought to be a new bicycle manufacture in July of 1922 the the following month sells off its bicycle manufacturing equipment to Excelsior. But I was always under the assumption that Huffman made and sold bicycle components until the mid 1930s when they started producing complete bicycles again. Strange for sure, but very, very interesting.


----------



## hoofhearted

Dayton Vintage Speed said:


> Patric, I more took it as Excelsior bought bicycle manufacturing equipment from Huffman not Davis. I'd like to know how much the Huffman's were involved with Davis by 1922, it at all. What I gathered from the articles is that Huffman incorporated a company that was thought to be a new bicycle manufacture in July of 1922 the the following month sells off its bicycle manufacturing equipment to Excelsior. But I was always under the assumption that Huffman made and sold bicycle components until the mid 1930s when they started producing complete bicycles again. Strange for sure, but very, very interesting.





At that moment in time Davis = Huffman AND Huffman = Davis.

Hell's Bells ... they were selling post 1921 H-D Bicycles right outta
the Davis factory.

Your article, Tim ... ''_Davis Factory 'way Behind on Orders'' , _indicates
all of the marques still being produced by Davis -- at the time the article
was published ... (we need a date for that article, please).  H-D is one
of those marques.

H-D machines were rolling right out of the back door of the Davis factory --
un-be-knownst to anyone in Milwaukee.  When H-D got wind of the illegal
sale ... they ordered a 1920's version of a ''cease and desist''.

Do you think that was gonna stop the Huffman family --- several hundred
miles away from Milwaukee ??  I don't think so.

A Harley-Davidson wool suit had to appear on the doorsteps of the Davis
Factory .. before those rolling, ''back-door H-D bicycles'' were stopped
from rolling. 

Sadly, this typer no longer has literature to support what was just typed. 
The reader is asked to tread cautiously thru my message of today.

There was FAKE NEWS back in the ''good ol' days'', too.

Same Huffman relatives connected with Davis since 1892.

Huffman family was dumping the farm.

Got in to service station equipment after waltzing away from bicycles.

LET'S PEEP SOME FAKE NEWS .....


----------



## hoofhearted

*Be On The Lookout ...*





*The above stem represents a full-size variation of a
Motorcycle Stem.*

*Ever seen or owned one ?  How About The Miniature Version ?*

*The 1918 H-D single-rail juvenile bicycle Model 518 .. frame
built of lugged, 7/8'' tubing ... sporting 26'' X 1.5'' tires ... allegedly 
was equipped with one of these ... but in a miniature version ..... 
(boy's and girl's) ... supporting a 5/8'' juvenile Shineer Handlebar.*

*The 1918 H-D Catalog MAY show this stem.  I do not have access to the '18 H-D Catalog.*

*If You Have either the Full-Size Version ... or, the Miniature .... PLEASE POST A FOTO.*

*Thank You .....*

*..... patric*


----------



## hoofhearted

*Be On The Lookout For This Stem ... as mentioned in Entry #683, above .....*


----------



## carlitos60

Trying to i.d. the Year of This DAYTON!!
 3 Odd Things: a D, an O, and a Smaller #4
 Any Help will be Appreciated!


----------



## hoofhearted

@carlitos60 



carlitos60 said:


> Trying to i.d. the Year of This DAYTON!!
> 3 Odd Things: a D, an O, and a Smaller #4
> Any Help will be Appreciated!




Carlitos ... please post numerous fotos of this frame.

Thank you .....

..... patric


----------



## Balloontyre

@hoofhearted dood, looks like this guy is hoping for a home run, prolly lurking this thread, unfortunately not even the right stem. Lol

https://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-T-o-c-bicycle-gooseneck-/202632916462


----------



## hoofhearted

@Balloontyre

*Good catch, Ivo !! *

*Dood has definitely been on the lurk, here ...
what with the tall valuation of his item in
his Ebay auction.  ($180.00 - B.I.N.)*

*However ... Dood Lurks Like a Lamey ....
his stem has absolutely no forward exten-
sion of any kind between the circular grip 
area and the ''flagpole'' itself.*

*And I know astute CABErs noticed the frontal
pinch feature -- so unusual on one of these 
short, forward extension stems.*

*A true Brother / Sister of The Wheel would
not soon forget seeing one of these stems ...
adult size or juvi.*

*Thank you ... Ivo.
Damn, you gots the Good Eye !!*

..... patric


----------



## Miyata FL.




----------



## Goldenindian

1919 Harley Motorcyke(faux resto)


----------



## hoofhearted

*Absolutely Stunning, Glenn.*

*We are fortunate to see what can be 
done when raw talent and authentic
parts are orchestrated.*

*Thank you for posting.*

*Took the liberty of upping the horsepower
on one of your fotos ....*

..... patric


----------



## catfish

Goldenindian said:


> 1919 Harley Motorcyke(faux resto)
> View attachment 1001791
> 
> View attachment 1001792
> 
> View attachment 1001794
> 
> View attachment 1001795
> 
> View attachment 1001796
> 
> View attachment 1001793



Beautiful job!


----------



## cyclingday

I wanted to say, nice Faux Job when you originally posted it, but I thought that might be rude, and that I should wait until a few others have chimed in about it.
What’s the story on it?
It looks like the bike a local collector here built about 8 years ago.
He’s done another one, I’m not sure, if he still has that first one in his collection.
I lovingly call him, Master Faux.


----------



## Foxclassics

It was from the original family in my area. I guess you could say I'm the second owner. It's all original. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Goldenindian

It started as this bicycle. I did the resto paint and tank myself. The frame is just too rare to leave as a rust bucket. It took 3 years to get the parts together. Hope you enjoy the pictures.


----------



## Foxclassics

I got the before but not the after. Nice bike!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## SKPC

*Outstanding* work.  Really flips my switch that's for sure...wow.


----------



## Goldenindian

I am of the mindset if you’re going to build a bike it should be one you could NEVER afford. I am a oil painter and these display bikes are like fine art to me. I put a lot of time and research into doing it right. Thanks for all the love!

Special thanks to all the members that helped out with the parts for the project!! The cabe is the best!!


----------



## cyclingday

Nice work!
I feel the same way about restorations.
Why restore something that can be found in original condition with relative ease?
If you are going to go to the trouble and expense, create something that is un  likely to be found complete, if at all.
Paul Brody’s re creation of the 1919 Overhead Cam Excelsior is a classic example of that mind set.


----------



## frankster41

cyclingday said:


> Nice work!
> I feel the same way about restorations.
> Why restore something that can be found in original condition with relative ease?
> If you are going to go to the trouble and expense, create something that is un  likely to be found complete, if at all.
> Paul Brody’s re creation of the 1919 Overhead Cam Excelsior is a classic example of that mind set.



Hey Marty
I raced against the first Excelsior that Brodie produced. They had some timing issues but once they got that fixed that bike was fast. Probably 10 years ago in Davenport Iowa. Flashback Fab is the website and look for "The Excelsior Project" unbelievable photos of the process. He was going to make ten machines.


----------



## Freqman1

Goldenindian said:


> 1919 Harley Motorcyke(faux resto)
> View attachment 1001791
> 
> View attachment 1001792
> 
> View attachment 1001794
> 
> View attachment 1001795
> 
> View attachment 1001796
> 
> View attachment 1001793



Awesome Glenn! Just curious what the tank is made of? V/r Shawn


----------



## Goldenindian

Thanks Shawn, the tank is fiberglass.


----------



## cyclingday

Fabulous!
Thanks for posting that, Frank.
I have watched that whole process video from Flashbackfab.com
It is absolutely astounding how he went about that project.
I highly recommend a look see, to those that haven’t watched it.
It will blow your mind.
It’s really cool at the end, when they fired it up for the first time.
Very emotional to hear something like that come to life after so much toil.
It was like he built a fire breathing Dragon.


----------



## C M Gerlach

A few more pictures of the harley.

Thanks to all here with the incredible knowledge. Thanks especially to Glenn for giving me a minute of your time.

The story dad told me was that gramps bought this for him from the local postal carrier in what was then rural western ny, around 1947. Possibly the mailman replaced the wheels, stem, bars etc. because dad said he never changed anything.
Not sure about who did the red paint.
We have had it since, so I don't have any reason to believe it's not an original.
I think I'm going to ride it, and have a little budget put aside, but not much time or money really, just kinda been saving for this for awhile.
I'm planning on leaving the rust and paint the way it is, some original paint shows through here and there, but probably not enough there to bother removing the red.
Saddle looks right?
I'd like to find the right stem and bars..grips.
Probably can deal with the pedals for now, but they're on the list.
Rideable wheels and tires.
Guess I might need a chain?

































I know they aren't right, but I'm digging the rims...might give them a shot, leave em red?
Probably not going to ride it too far...who knows.
My wife says I can hang it on the wall.
That's cool.
On good insight, was advised possibly a 1919.
If anyone is interested i could look for numbers.
Any comments or opinions are welcome.
Think I'm just starting to figure how to post stuff right. Probably should learn some etiquette also.
New guys...ugh.
Thanks again.
Chris


----------



## dave the wave

Chris take a pic of the bottom of the pedal crank housing.that is where the serial num.is


----------



## C M Gerlach

Okay,
I suppose I'm pretty curious as well. 
Chris


----------



## C M Gerlach

Hi,
I didnt exactly take a grinder to it, but this all I found.
For some reason I thought  there was supposed to be another number centered on top of the long number......maybe I read too much old stuff here.
Is the 8 separated from the long number the manufacture year?
If so, Goldenindian is correct with is his assessment of a 1919 model 419?
Also.....a bonus grease fitting......thanks gramps, wouldn't want those bearings to go dry.
As usual comments/opinions are appreciated.
Thanks, 
Chris.


----------



## hoofhearted

@C M Gerlach

*Your H-D 419 is wonderful to behold.

You are the fortunate son.*

….. patric


----------



## charnleybob




----------



## C M Gerlach

hoofhearted said:


> @C M Gerlach
> 
> *Your H-D 419 is wonderful to behold.
> 
> You are the fortunate son.*
> 
> ….. patric
> 
> 
> View attachment 1091943



Thank you.
Nice sentiment.
Fortunate indeed.
Interesting information.
Chris.


----------



## Freqman1

This one belongs to a friend. Davis built Hub "Delivery" Not a whole bike but frame is nice original paint with the boxed pins and decals still showing nicely. I need to dig back through this thread to research it a little. Interesting curved down tube. @hoofhearted @Jesse McCauley V/r Shawn


----------



## C M Gerlach

That color,.......jeez.
Beautiful.


----------



## Freqman1

So after scrolling the full 36 pages of this thread I can't find another frame like this except in ads for the Dayton Motor Bicycle. This bicycle has the Davis No. 5 26T ring and not a 20T. Was this frame exclusively for motorized bicycles? Anyone have any info on "Hub" (the badge)? V/r Shawn


----------



## Goldenindian

Now that is cool!! Thanks for sharing Shawn. That is going to need some more research. Frame is very cool. Does look like the power bike frame....awesome badge too....I’ll let ya know if I find anything.


----------



## Foxclassics

Goldenindian said:


> Now that is cool!! Thanks for sharing Shawn. That is going to need some more research. Frame is very cool. Does look like the power bike frame....awesome badge too....I’ll let ya know if I find anything.



Here's a friend of mine 1915 Dayton motor wheel. 





Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## cyclingday

Fantastic!


----------



## Freqman1

The one I show has a bicycle fork and the larger chain ring so probably not motorized? I'd really like to see about a '17 Dayton cat to see if there is a "Delivery" model listed and how it was equipped. V/r Shawn


----------



## cyclingday

My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Goldenindian

?????


----------



## Freqman1

Goldenindian said:


> ?????
> View attachment 1094900



I’m going to take a better look here shortly. V/r Shawn


----------



## cyclingday




----------



## Freqman1

Doing some research on my WALCO bottle cap badge and ran across this ad. Notice the curved down tube. I sold one of these a couple months ago and thought it was a pretty neat bike. V/r Shawn


----------



## JO BO

2 Old Dayton’s squaring off















 serial number for one on right has large E.  Looks like a number 7  Then a little lower serial number. Located higher than most Davis bikes.   G N handlebars mentioned in ad page 15 



 weird non original handlebars where you could adjust to any configuration you desired.    



 serial number for one on left.  Looks like a model 170.   1920 Gentleman’s light roadster?















 newer Dayton crank/chainring


----------



## rusty_apache

Two Davis built machines.
The Minnesota parlor cabinet treadle was sold by Sears and Roebuck about 1910.


----------



## JO BO

A Harley named Snow White.    Hard to make out serial number. Has a number 8 on the fork tube.


----------



## bentwoody66

Gary Mc said:


> *1912 Dayton Info*
> 
> The Bicycling World & Motorcycle Review December 2, 1911
> 
> View attachment 551004
> 
> 1912 G.W. Shroyer & Co. - Dayton
> 
> View attachment 551005



Another one in the wild



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## hoofhearted




----------



## charnleybob

hoofhearted said:


> View attachment 1197983
> 
> View attachment 1197993





I really would like to have one of those!


----------



## bentwoody66

charnleybob said:


> I really would like to have one of those!



I can supply the picture if that's what you mean. I should get it shortly. The postmark on the back is dated 1914 from Iowa.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## charnleybob

bentwoody66 said:


> I can supply the picture if that's what you mean. I should get it shortly. The postmark on the back is dated 1914 from Iowa.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk





The bike!


----------



## bentwoody66

Me too, but I'll settle for some photographic histoty.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Goldenindian

Look close....another one....gonna need some horsepower!


----------



## hoofhearted




----------



## Goldenindian

1920 Dayton catalog....enjoy














						1920 Dayton Bicycle Catalog | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

Hey hey Cabe, I scored an original 1920 Dayton catalog today. Not a lot of new information.  I am always amazed with the quality of some of this paper from 100 years ago. Just wanted to share with the community. Enjoy.




					thecabe.com


----------



## kshimp41

Just Picked this up.


----------



## Goldenindian

What does the bottom bracket have stamped on it.??....interesting it has the dart paint job....I have only ever seen the pinstriped paneled version. Thanks for sharing....hope to see more.


----------



## hoofhearted

@kshimp41 

Thank you for posting your Davis-Built Yale.

The machine is in great condition … and that
stamped-copper Yale badge is in remarkable
condition ... considering this ride has no pro-
tective fork, truss-rods to fend off oncoming
trains, planes and automobiles.

….. patric


----------



## JO BO

Delete


----------



## JO BO

Delete


----------



## JO BO

Snow White loves the number 8


----------



## JO BO

1920 Harley Snow White
I tried to get fender hook out to show you what it looks like but didn’t want to break as it is tight


----------



## hoofhearted




----------



## JO BO

Birds eye view of a 1920 Dayton fork with that pin.......yes my hook is missing,


----------



## JO BO

Red Riding Hood loves the number 9.      1920 Dayton. Does have letter A on fork tube


----------



## JO BO

Here’s a kicker though.   It has the same font / number on the front wheel hub!    Need Davis gurus on this one!


----------



## JO BO

1918 Dayton loaded with E’s.    Nice split separate fender brackets feature as well.  Double X on crank though.  Missing bottom fork heads cone I’m sure would have been an E as well.......


----------



## kshimp41

Goldenindian said:


> What does the bottom bracket have stamped on it.??....interesting it has the dart paint job....I have only ever seen the pinstriped paneled version. Thanks for sharing....hope to see more.
> 
> Bottom bracket. Serial #



A610178.  Any info. on date appreciated.


----------



## cyclingday

My bike had the same alphabet type stampings on the components.
It seems to be a type of coding for an assembly instruction sheet. ?


----------



## JO BO

It would be nice to see what others have in this regard......Interesting.... factory must have had some viable reason to do this.


----------



## bricycle

Excelsior?
Excellent Ebony Example Exemplified Each Equipment


----------



## JO BO

Snow White and her twin sister Goldilocks

1920 Harley Davidson.   

Goldilocks needs some correct parts


----------



## JO BO

My best HD chainring......I love this one as it has so much original plating left


----------



## Freqman1

1918 Harley Davidson Motorcyke Model 418. Not near to the level of Brant or Marty's bikes but I think this one has promise. V/r Shawn


----------



## JO BO

Can I have it?

oh sorry.....(May) I have it?


----------



## Freqman1

JO BO said:


> Can I have it?
> 
> oh sorry.....(May) I have it?



No you may not. Unlike you I only have one! V/r Shawn


----------



## Goldenindian

Congrats Shawn....that machine is going to look amazing with just a little tender love and care. So cool. Can’t wait to see more soon! Anything on the bottom bracket?


----------



## JO BO

Freqman1 said:


> No you may not. Unlike you I only have one! V/r Shawn
> [/QUOTE[
> Ah well....probably a good call....might have saved me from  another trip to see the counselor to discuss my compulsive hoarding disorder


----------



## JO BO

Shawn,  would you put a tape measure on those bars so we can see measurements of them? Have seen drawings, descriptions but never actual visual aid in Identifying them by actual numbers. Eg. width,drop,length of grip end to bar, total length etc.. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Goldenindian

How to choose a bicycle..Davis sewing machine catalog. | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

Got this cool Davis paper today. Check it out. Enjoy




					thecabe.com


----------



## Freqman1

JO BO said:


> Shawn,  would you put a tape measure on those bars so we can see measurements of them? Have seen drawings, descriptions but never actual visual aid in Identifying them by actual numbers. Eg. width,drop,length of grip end to bar, total length etc.. Thanks in advance.



I’ll try to get to it this week. V/r Shawn


----------



## Freqman1

JO BO said:


> Shawn,  would you put a tape measure on those bars so we can see measurements of them? Have seen drawings, descriptions but never actual visual aid in Identifying them by actual numbers. Eg. width,drop,length of grip end to bar, total length etc.. Thanks in advance.



@JO BO see if dis be hep'n ya Disclaimer: all values are as close as I could get without taking the bars off but should be pretty close. V/r Shawn

Edit: After looking through my archives particulalry at @New Mexico Brant and @cyclingday original bikes I think the bars on theirs have a much longer pull. Could one of you guys compare your measurements to what I have here? Thanks, Shawn


----------



## JO BO

Thanks for those pics/ measurements.   Hate to be that guy but....how far from end of grip to crossbar? Also how long is crossbar flat area on each side and lastly the outside diameter of pieces. Thank ye ever so kindly in advance.


----------



## JO BO

I’m curious as to whether these bars may have had size differences between the years they were offered?

Maybe someone has literature for mid teens through early 20’s when I thought they were produced? thanks


----------



## JO BO

I wonder if you should have 20 1/2” width as lit I found (1917) states also shows 10” overall length so in between ours. A hard drop of the bike could bend inward some. Mine has a noticeable right side bend inward like it appears yours may .  The crossbar on mine is 18” in length and the bars themselves mic at .875. So adding those numbers mine are 19.75 wide unless they are suppose to have an outward spread at the ends.
The flat spot on the crossbar is 1.280” in length on each side and .300 thick. The crossbar itself is .640 thick.
Overall length of mine are 11”. From front to end of grip.  The distance from grip end to crossbar is spot on 7”.
Will get drop next time I go out to shop but looks 4” like yours.


----------



## JO BO

I measured my drop and it appears to be about 4 1/2 or so....will need to find a level to be more accurate.

The bulldog grip is 6 inches long ( minus the bezel ) with an internal ( bottom out) measurement of 3 3/4”. When I installed on bars I got a 9 3/4” measurement from end of grip to crossbar. The inside measurement is a concave in center so actual fit comes in at 3 1/4.    So 7” end to crossbar. Plus (6-3 1/4) =. 2 3/4.    7 + 2 3/4=.  9 3/4”.


----------



## New Mexico Brant

I cannot speak with any authority about these bars.  Having all six sets of bars in front of me I do see small differences.  Is this due to which company made them (Shelby vs. Torrington) or changes over time within a single company.  According to Glen at @Goldenindian the “V” profile on the crossbar indicates the bars are what is referred to as “ Shelby bars” in the literature.  Of note, only the black painted bars have a welded in place crossbar, these are from my Harley; the rest have the flanges where the crossbars meet the inside of the bars.


----------



## cyclingday

Since the Shelby Cycle Company didn’t exist at the time that these type of Motorbike bars were manufactured, I always assumed that the reason why they were called, the “Shelby Motorbike Bar.” was because they were made out of Shelby Tubing?

Just an assumption on my part.
Do we know, who actually manufactured these bars?


----------



## New Mexico Brant

cyclingday said:


> Since the Shelby Cycle Company didn’t exist at the time that these type of Motorbike bars were manufactured, I always assumed that the reason why they were called, the “Shelby Motorbike Bar.” was because they were made out of Shelby Tubing?
> 
> Just an assumption on my part.
> Do we know, who actually manufactured these bars?



I guess another question was Shelby Tubing Co. building bicycle parts/bars?


----------



## Goldenindian

Chicago Handlebar Company.   Shelby, Ohio


----------



## Freqman1

Goldenindian said:


> Chicago Handlebar Company.   Shelby, View attachment 1221778



I need a set of these if anyone has some they could cut loose of. Thanks, Shawn


----------



## cyclingday

Thank you, @Goldenindian 
Now, I can sleep at night.


----------



## Goldenindian

The bars without the point stamped into the crossbar I swear I seen referenced as “Ideal” bars..they don’t seem to be the early teens era...seem to be a lot more prevalent in the 1920s on rangers ect....I have never seen a pair of “ideals”with two different lengths for the pulls...where as the pointed Shelby bars have two different lengths...short and long...I believe Davis sewing machine bicycles only had Shelby braced (pointed) from the factory. .Has anyone seen long pulls on the “ideal” ones?


----------



## Rusty72

Recently got this one.


----------



## Rusty72

Color is way off !  But I’ll take care of that.


----------



## cr250mark

Rusty72 said:


> Recently got this one.
> View attachment 1225841
> 
> View attachment 1225842





killer saddle
Nice Bike Man. 
mark


----------



## JO BO

Never realized the width difference for 3 edge to 4 edge Davis stands before I placed them together. Little different bottom shape as well. 4 edge quite a bit wider at bottom.  Pretty much the same everything else.


----------



## JO BO

A revisit to Shelby bars have me wondering when were these produced/end?

The ad states the crossbar was brazed to the main bar for strength so Brant’s Harley bar is only correct  one per our discussion?   Perhaps changes did occur to design through the years most of us are concerned with so we have more options..   
most I see we consider Shelby have the eyelet for the crossbar unbrazed.


----------



## Archie Sturmer

I just removed some headset and bottom bracket cups from a presumably 1913 Davis, and found that all 4 were stamped with a number.  The number is 3, and 3 is the number.  Anyone else ever noticed stamped cups; was it a Davis thing; does it reflect a year?


----------



## JO BO

I was browsing a 1918 Harley Catalog and thought I would be reading the same words I had for years but a number started flashing. I always had in my mind all Harley motorcykes used a Troxel #2 saddle but here pops up a Troxel #1 motorbike saddle line......would have lost the house in a bet with someone. Pays to read more carefully


----------



## mofoco1

So would you say these are Davis? Any value to anyone?


----------



## Archie Sturmer

mofoco1 said:


> So would you say these are Davis?
> Any value to anyone?



The yoke truss fork looks like it might be a Davis; and Simmons advertised a curved down tube early, but most attribute the curves to later streamlined motorbikes.
Maybe measure the head tube length, as Miami also had a similar looking long truss fork?


----------



## bentwoody66

Could be one of these with the heavy duty fork?












Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## hoofhearted




----------



## Freqman1

bentwoody66 said:


> Could be one of these with the heavy duty fork?View attachment 1271956View attachment 1271957View attachment 1271958View attachment 1271959View attachment 1271960
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



That looks familiar!


----------



## bentwoody66

Freqman1 said:


> That looks familiar!



Is it yours ?????????

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Freqman1

bentwoody66 said:


> Is it yours ?????????
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



It was I sold it earlier this year


----------



## bentwoody66

Would have loved to get my hands on it!!!!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Goldenindian

I contacted the person to see more pics....sorry if I shouldn’t have posted but (let me know if you want me to take this down) It was kind of a Frankenbike. Not Davis frame.


----------



## Freqman1

bentwoody66 said:


> Would have loved to get my hands on it!!!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk











						Sold - Davis built Hub "Delivery" | Archive (sold)
					

Teens Davis badged as Hub. Unusual curved down tube frame. What you see is what you get. I have no other parts for this bike. Please ask any questions or if you want pics of something let me know. Sold as-is where is. I have generally looked this over and it seems straight and structurally...




					thecabe.com


----------



## hoofhearted

Found Foto


----------



## bud poe

HD Arch bar from a friends private collection


----------



## Goldenindian

Very cool...thanks for sharing!


----------



## bud poe

Goldenindian said:


> Very cool...thanks for sharing! View attachment 1313282



@Goldenindian yeah thanks for posting the catalog page, that’s the only place I’ve seen this model, never seen an actual example before these pics


----------



## ballooney

Found this thread and thought I would post what I have...I believe this is a legit Davis build Chief but am looking for confirmation.  Any input is welcome as I don't know much about this era.  I believe I have all the parts with the exception of the wheel set.  In looking at pictures, the pullback on the bars seems too short so I don't think they are original.  Pedals look era correct with reproduced blocks.  Let me know what you think.  Thanks.


----------



## MEW1359

Thanks for the pics, I like em! Nice project bike. I’m a newbie on here myself with not much knowledge or expertise.....still in the learning stage! I wish I could give you some good answers. All I can say is ask questions of many experts on here, and do lots of research which I’ve been doing alot of lately. Good luck! Mike W.


----------



## ccmerz

First photo: Appears to be...... at least the frame. stem, post and....... possibly the seat.


----------



## piercer_99

ballooney said:


> Found this thread and thought I would post what I have...I believe this is a legit Davis build Chief but am looking for confirmation.  Any input is welcome as I don't know much about this era.  I believe I have all the parts with the exception of the wheel set.  In looking at pictures, the pullback on the bars seems too short so I don't think they are original.  Pedals look era correct with reproduced blocks.  Let me know what you think.  Thanks.
> View attachment 1316986View attachment 1316987View attachment 1316988View attachment 1316989View attachment 1316990View attachment 1316991View attachment 1316992View attachment 1316993View attachment 1316994View attachment 1316995View attachment 1316996View attachment 1316997View attachment 1316998View attachment 1316999View attachment 1317000



Hey Patric, @hoofhearted    did you see this?


----------



## Archie Sturmer

ballooney said:


> I believe this is a legit Davis build Chief but am looking for confirmation.  Any input is welcome.  Let me know what you think.  Thanks.
> View attachment 1316995View attachment 1316996



Looks like an *Excelsior* Michigan City chain ring sprocket for Sears *Elgin* bicycles; not sure if that crank will fit the Davis Sears Chief chain ring sprocket, based on the drive pin offset.
(Not sure if the crank is an Excelsior tho).


----------



## mikecuda

I have a bunch of motobike frames.  How can I identify a David Sewing Frame or Dayton Frame?

THX


----------



## Goldenindian

The serial number on the bottom is a very good tell....the forks help a lot if any of the frames have them....a Dayton frame should have a lot of lug construction. Also Dayton’s have a big bottle cap hole on the head tube...not screw holes.


Photo credit: hoofhearted.


----------



## mikecuda

Goldenindian said:


> The serial number on the bottom is a very good tell....the forks help a lot if any of the frames have them....a Dayton frame should have a lot of lug construction. Also Dayton’s have a big bottle cap hole on the head tube...not screw holes.View attachment 1349535
> Photo credit: hoofhearted.



THANK YOU!


----------



## mikecuda

How do I find the Harley olive green paint code to get a can of single stage paint mixed for my HD tribute bike.  Thank you.


----------



## New Mexico Brant

This proves GW Grady had an early relationship with Davis/Dayton.  1912 catalog:


----------



## Goldenindian

Still in 1917...good list of store brand Davis made machines.


----------



## mikecuda

Thank you.  I hoping my stash has more then one David in there.


----------



## JO BO

Beat to death 1919 Harley Davidson Motorcyke


----------



## mikecuda

JO BO said:


> Beat to death 1919 Harley Davidson Motorcyke
> 
> View attachment 1391364
> 
> View attachment 1391365
> 
> View attachment 1391366
> 
> View attachment 1391368
> 
> View attachment 1391369



Can I get measurements of the handlebars?          Please!


----------



## JO BO

mikecuda said:


> Can I get measurements of the handlebars?          Please!



Yes sir; I will get them this afternoon and forward them on to you.   Thanks Jo Bo


----------



## mikecuda

JO BO said:


> Yes sir; I will get them this afternoon and forward them on to you.   Thanks Jo Bo



Excellent.  THX


----------



## MEW1359

Bike Mike from Dayton, Ohio took a road trip down to the old Davis Sewing Machine Company factory buildings yesterday at Davis Street and Linden Avenue. I took my Dayton Davis Roadster (1917-1922) down for pictures. Is it possible this bike was manufactured at this old factory over 100 years ago? Great bike and history as well.


----------



## mikecuda

mikecuda said:


> THANK YOU!



Good stuff.  I'm looking for a frame and fork.   I'll be at Kutztown on Friday.


----------



## Jp90

Davis? I know the rims aren’t correct. What do you guys think? Thanks! For sale too!


----------



## Archie Sturmer

Chain ring looks like a Davis #8 sprocket; not sure what to make of the front end.
Does the frame have any serial numbers?


----------



## Jp90

Yes I will have to get them and post it thanks


----------



## Dave Stromberger

Jp90 said:


> Yes I will have to get them and post it thanks



@Jp90  Please, when you're ready to sell it, post in the appropriate classified forum.  Offering for sale in discussion threads is not allowed.

Thanks!


----------



## biker

Harley Davidson serial number
A
2248
Any idea what year that is?
Looks like the green was painted over with black at some time. Definitely red primer. Screwless badge with nice patina. Will need to be restored with new paint and nickel.


----------



## JO BO

1918......but please give us a side profile to get a better idea.  Thanks


----------



## hoofhearted

This typer has never seen the HD badge affixed 
to the frame using bottlecap technology.  

While having no doubts of the reality of such a 
badge featuring the *lack* of screw-mount holes -- 
and mounted to the frame ..... have not, 'til this 
moment, seen one mounted in _that _manner.

Thank you for posting, @biker _!!_

patric


----------



## JO BO

.... it would seem to fit with the oddities of Davis that year.    Thought someone else here had a bottlecap 18 Harley thought to be only one extant


----------



## biker

hoofhearted said:


> This typer has never seen the HD badge affixed
> to the frame using bottlecap technology.
> 
> While having no doubts of the reality of such a
> badge featuring the *lack* of screw-mount holes --
> and mounted to the frame ..... have not, 'til this
> moment, seen one mounted in _that _manner.
> 
> Thank you for posting, @biker _!!_
> 
> patric



Well that's neato!
What years were the HD bottlecap badges typically mounted to?
If I carefully remove some of the black paint, I can probably get a good match to the olive drab color so it doesn't look off like some of the repaints I have seen.


----------



## JO BO

What’s the best bike that ever found you?  Post #32

General discussions about old bikes forum


----------



## biker

So is this considered the Model 418  "MOTORCYKE" version?


----------



## hoofhearted

Ron ... PM'd you with a response and images.

patric


----------



## Goldenindian

here is a few. So far all but one…has had the seat lug and the “Dayton type” adjusters” and the “A” on the bottom.


----------



## biker

Dayton might explain the handlebars on my HD. Looks to be original then but Dayton style.


----------



## dave the wave

bought this of this thread:https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/harley-davidson.189546/ yes the bike has some issues but it is a real 1919 Harley Davidson is what I believe.they put JB weld on the neck to accommodate the repop badge.because the repop badge holes don't line up with a original.oh yes the paint job,i like it boxed pinstripes.i am not going to deal with the correct paint scheme.i bought the bike for under $5000 and i am happy with it.enjoy the pics. oh who puts indian repop grips on a bike like this?


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## biker

Whats the correct wheel and fender paint scheme? If someone can post pics of their original HD that would be great showing the pins and colors.
Thanks


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## dave the wave

here's one


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## biker

New find a Davis made Dayton Motorbike Model 172 Carmine looks like a 1914-18 version with the solid cast badge. Is the badge dual colored with yellow DAYTON middle and darker perimeter? Looks like bottlecap style mounting. Needs some work. Old repaint maybe? Also has the longhorn handlebars with original wood grips. Missing rear wheel but still looking. Front wood rim looks like its painted black. Leather splash protector still on bottom of front fender, thats nice. Fenders look original. Seat needs new leather. Dayton sprocket looks ok. Have to find tires. How would you say, it has good bones. Needs a pressure washing first when it arrives. How rare is it? How many are known to exist? Value?


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## oddball

Great 1920 Dayton find, looks like 20" frame. 1919 and 1920 are much more common than my 1918 which I'm having trouble finding info on not to mention the 1918  forks that are missing. Your bicycle should be a mild restoration, don't do any more than you have to, "less is more".
Cliff


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## New Mexico Brant

hoofhearted said:


> This typer has never seen the HD badge affixed
> to the frame using bottlecap technology.
> 
> While having no doubts of the reality of such a
> badge featuring the *lack* of screw-mount holes --
> and mounted to the frame ..... have not, 'til this
> moment, seen one mounted in _that _manner.
> 
> Thank you for posting, @biker _!!_
> 
> patric



Here is the 1918 Harley Davidson truss frame model acquired on my trip to Memory Lane this year.  It features all the frame/serial number traits Glenn mentions for "bottlecap" badge Harleys.


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## biker

So the numbers on the bottom of the frame crank on my Dayton Motorbike are
9
152
then serial number
What year would that make it?
I preemptively said in my post #829 that it was a Model 172 which its not. That was before I had the bike in hand. Its a Model 152 based on the numbers above from the bottom of the frame crank.  It doesn't fit in your table in post #483 as I would expect the first number to be an 8 for year 1918 where the Model 152 is listed. Maybe they had leftover Model 152 frames from year 1918 going into year 1919 and maybe that's why they put a 9 at the top?


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## New Mexico Brant

Interesting Davis facts; checkout the frame in the ad!  Crazy!  1922


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## biker

oddball said:


> Great 1920 Dayton find, looks like 20" frame. 1919 and 1920 are much more common than my 1918 which I'm having trouble finding info on not to mention the 1918  forks that are missing. Your bicycle should be a mild restoration, don't do any more than you have to, "less is more".
> Cliff



Looks like my bike is from 1918 also being a Model 152. Can someone post a catalog page?


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## oddball

Here's a photo of serial # to my 1918 Dayton, can we see yours as well?
Cliff


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## biker

oddball said:


> Here's a photo of serial # to my 1918 Dayton, can we see yours as well?
> Cliff
> View attachment 1506474



Here it is. Put some chalk in the numbers. 
9
152
serial number
What kind of rear hub did this have as I have to look for one?


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## oddball

Kinda hard to tell if it is a 152, the 5 could be a 6 which would explain  the 9 above or I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, which has happened before,  once.


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## oddball

Or it's a 1918 model sold in 1919, or who really cares you've got a great bicycle. But I would love to know what size frame it is.


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## biker

oddball said:


> Or it's a 1918 model sold in 1919, or who really cares you've got a great bicycle. But I would love to know what size frame it is.



I measure 19 1/2". I can't believe it, I am removing the top red paint using Goof Off and the original Carmine paint is underneath. DAYTON decal on the downtube is there also. Sprocket is just covered with decades of dirt which just washes off and shiney nickel underneath. Need a rear wheel though.


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## biker

oddball said:


> Kinda hard to tell if it is a 152, the 5 could be a 6 which would explain  the 9 above or I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, which has happened before,  once.



Its a 5 believe me. I just need two Vitalics now. Someone has put together a table with model numbers and year dates which probably needs to be adjusted now since my 152 has a 9 above it when the table shows an 8 above the 152.


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## oddball

19-1/2" ? Did you measure with a Chinese tape measure? 😁
Make sure you take photos of it after house paint is removed, would love to see the paint scheme. Assuming fender center is carmine and sides are black.


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## biker

oddball said:


> 19-1/2" ? Did you measure with a Chinese tape measure? 😁
> Make sure you take photos of it after house paint is removed, would love to see the paint scheme. Assuming fender center is carmine and sides are black.



So far the fenders are all black with two gold strips on each side of the middle bump up. I will buy a new tape measure. Also the front wood rim is all black. Broken like a z but I will try to save it.


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## Archie Sturmer

Sounds like a candidate for a *project*.








						Project Rides
					

Working on a restoration or custom build? This is the place to keep a running topic documenting your project step-by-step.




					thecabe.com
				



"_Working on a restoration or custom build? This is the place _(forum)_ to keep a *running topic documenting your project step-by-step*_".


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## Goldenindian

Notice the black fenders. 



Photo credit: catfish


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## cr250mark

1921 Elgin
Sierra Tan Og paint with Killer thick box pins
Davis Made


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## Rusty72

WOW !!!!


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## biker

Beauty!


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## Goldenindian

My favorite style Davis Motobike. Such a cool old picture. Don’t see this early style motobike(15,16,17)often. Had to make sure this picture made it into the thread.


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## SKPC

@chitown ~~ Your thoughts on these two Roadsters? Davis made?   i was doing some digging into this mailorder outfit and came onto this ad..1913 catalog.   Davis Chainrings and Lester Hub on the Packard "B".  Your research mentions "Davis built racer bikes were well know in the teens and used by some top racers of the day. So they would have been known for that more than their Motobike frame designs.”  Few roadsters are represented in the thread so for posperity.


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## chitown

SKPC said:


> @chitown ~~ Your thoughts on these two Roadsters? Davis made?   i was doing some digging into this mail order outfit and came onto this ad..1913 catalog.   Davis Chainrings and Lester Hub on the Packard "B".



Anything offering a Lester would most likely be Davis built, and that chainring seals the deal in my mind. I believe that style chainring was also on some Excelsior models but not until the late teens.


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## New Mexico Brant

A new arrival: what I believe to be a 1918 Davis with a teens period Shaw motor.  Thank you to Glenn @Goldenindian for the assist in identifying the rare Davis fork he believes was a one year only offering in 1918; catalog credit also goes to Glen.  I am seeing an eight above the second five in the serial number.   A rear hole a short ways from the mounting hole exists in the front fender.  I think it may have had a Davis fender nub at one time (is there name for these nubs)?


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## Freqman1

Whoa Nellie! Congrats on a spectacular score Brant. I’ve got to get out one day to see the Brantsonian! V/r Shawn


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## cr250mark

Yah man looks like French Grey 
Lots of cool smalls on this bicycle 
Davis sets the Stage 
Looked several times and see something different each time I look !
Love it.
Mark


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## rustyjones

B-e-a-utiful...


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## New Mexico Brant

I would like to thank @Dave Stromberger and @dave the wave for identifying the Shaw started life as a Davis built Sears Master.  Most Shaw’s were sold as kits to be added on bikes.  There are very few survivors with motor/frames fully assembled at the Galesburg, Kansas factory.  It is currently unknown what bicycle manufacturer(s) actually built the frames and forks for Shaw.


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## catfish




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## mikecuda

THX Scott in my possession waiting for me.


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## Machine Age Victim

Not a bicycle, but made by Davis


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## Goldenindian

Found this beautiful photo online….thought I’d share. The bicycle is a spring fender Dayton!


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## Jesse McCauley

Here's a Davis built bike I wish I could have seen roll off the showroom floor pictured above!


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## lgrinnings

Here's another Davis-built Speedway Special. I still need to get the wheels ironed out. The rear wheel I have that matches the front is sporting a Corbin Model 10 two-speed, so not sure what I want to do. Serial number is 261871 with no model or year designtion that I can discern.


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## hoofhearted

lgrinnings said:


> Here's another Davis-built Speedway Special. I still need to get the wheels ironed out.
> *( *The rear wheel I have that matches the front is sporting a Corbin Model 10 two-speed *)*_,_
> so not sure what I want to do. Serial number is 261871 with no model or year designtion that I can discern.


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## facair55

Recently restored 1914 Superb Model Peerless Bicycle. The picture of the two ladies was taken at a recent Wheelmen event. 
Incorrect seat on bike, the correct one will be put on at a later date.


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## Jesse McCauley

A sexy pair of deluxe 'double block' Davis pedals are currently up for grabs on DOND -
A corrrect option for any number of bikes but it appears the 'original' pedals for the Dayton Motor Wheel as shown on a number of examples.


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## mikecuda

Jesse McCauley said:


> A sexy pair of deluxe 'double block' Davis pedals are currently up for grabs on DOND -
> A corrrect option for any number of bikes but it appears the 'original' pedals for the Dayton Motor Wheel as shown on a number of examples.
> 
> View attachment 1740491


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## mikecuda

Outstanding........


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## mikecuda

Mine I bought from Scott.   It's still in the box waiting.


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## Greg Kozak

That's a great picture with you and the driver. Those guys get such a bad rap and sometimes rightly so.
But when a driver takes care in delivering an undamaged parcel he deserves to be recognized for it.


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## mikecuda

Agree.    He was great about it.


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## mikecuda

M error.  I bought it from our Shawn, The Old Bike guy.


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