# Restoring a TOC bicycle



## locomotion (Nov 6, 2016)

Restoring a TOC bicycle
I restore a few TOC bicycles every year, and have left some original paint bikes on the side line because I wasn't sure on my course of action and now I want to tackle them this winter.

For the original paint bikes with scroll work, I want to leave the paint and nickel original, but what should I do with the wood rims?  They all have their original wheels without tires, some are bent and most don't look good.
1. Do I restore the wheels as I do on complete restorations, keeping original spokes and nipples, or do I leave them be and slap new tubeless tires on?  I am not talking about wheels in good shape here with original finish.

2. What do you do with the paint to bring a little life back into it and the scroll?

What is your view on this?

Bikes are pre-1900: 1 is Monarch, 2 are Orient, 1 is Victor, 4 are Columbia, 1 is Spalding, 1 is Niagara (6 of those are Drive-shaft)


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## Sped Man (Nov 6, 2016)

If you don't intend on repainting the bicycles then the patina has to be the same everywhere. IF you restore the wheels just make sure to give it the same patina which is found throughout the bike. IF the bike is heavily scratched the rims should look the same. Even new tires can be made to look old. It just take a lot longer to give it the correct look but once you achieve it you will know you are done.


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## mongeese (Nov 6, 2016)

Locomotion lets chat on the phone. PM me.


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## redline1968 (Nov 6, 2016)

I think having orig paint bikes and restoring rims especially Crome ones makes the bike pop out. And painted ones would help as along as they are not over restored.


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## locomotion (Nov 6, 2016)

redline1968 said:


> I think having orig paint bikes and restoring rims especially Crome ones makes the bike pop out. And painted ones would help as along as they are not over restored.




I am talking about wood rims mostly, most varnished


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## redline1968 (Nov 7, 2016)

Restore them but leave the stains and damage patina on them. That's what I do


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## locomotion (Nov 7, 2016)

mongeese said:


> Locomotion lets chat on the phone. PM me.



PM sent


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## pelletman (Nov 9, 2016)

Preserve and conserve, don't restore unless there is nothing left


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## locomotion (Nov 9, 2016)

pelletman said:


> Preserve and conserve, don't restore unless there is nothing left




I don't share the same opinion on this , unfortunately!!! I don't enjoy looking at rusted, damaged relics on 2 wheels, IMO there is a sane in-between.
I leave the rusty pieces of crap for others to buy, preserve and conserve.

Afterall, I want my antique bikes to be like my antique car collection, rideable, otherwise they are simply useless.

P.S. my views are no better than anyone else's, everyone is allowed an opinion on this. I respect all the point of views and this question about the restoration of wood rims became about restoring rust, frame, handle bars, ect for some reason.


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## Brian R. (Nov 9, 2016)

Max, I agree with both you and Pelletman, and I don't think your views are incompatible. I think it's safe to say almost all of us feel that conservation of nice, original paint bikes is the first choice, and that rusty pieces of crap are good candidates for restoration. I also agree with you that there is a sane in-between. I'm not into hanging "art" on the wall and I don't get the logic of having bikes "for display only." To me, bikes are machines and they need to be operational to fulfill the purpose for which they were designed. Last month I used a hacksaw to remove 100 year old rock hard tires so that I could make use of the straight wood rims and decent nickel plated hubs that were trapped inside these fossils. I felt a little bad about it, but I said to myself "I want to ride this thing and I'm not running a museum here." If I were to keep the fossilized wheel set off to the side and used different hubs laced into newly built wood rims, is the bike any more "original"? I would say in this case, the bike is kept more original by ditching the hard tires and continuing to use the original hubs and rims.

I have several black toc bikes that I intend to repaint black because there is no pinstriping or scroll work that will be lost, and they will look great with new paint. I also have some really faded, dinged up, and slightly rusted original paint maroon & striped bikes that I will not repaint because I have no hope of reproducing the original colour or stripes. In other words, I think it makes sense to paint the bikes where nothing is lost and don't paint the bikes where something will be lost. The same philosophy applies to other bike parts too in my opinion. I would rather buy period used grips off Ebay than keep original grips that are held on by electrical tape, and so on.


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## mongeese (Nov 9, 2016)

Seems ego plays a major role in the early bicycle world. Also personality disorders come right out to the front when ideas exchange on preservation. 
 Making an antique usable could be harmful and is quite silly in my opinion. Be it something you cook with or sit on. The people you impress pedaling around on your 100 year old bike will always be there to impress in easier ways. 
 Study the early ideas of anything and respect the change- preserve early attempts of all things.


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## locomotion (Nov 10, 2016)

yeah definitely not a subject everyone can agree on!!!   But opinions will always differ and that is the nice part about a democracy. But then, there always comes a guy, out of the blue, who likes to demean people trying to show that they are superior in their own head. Let's name him, ohhh let's see, Mr. President. 
I guess it's back to square one ...

You are right M. President, if you need to impress people by riding a 100 year old bike or telling people how good and knowledgeable you are at restoring stuff, then maybe you have a problem with your large ego. And you are right again, it is pretty silly to compare a 100 year old cooking stove and a bicycle, since that they were not exactly made for the same purpose??? I would rather keep comparing transportation items like a bicycle and an automobile. I guess you also have a Doctorate in Psychology, talking about personality disorders, as well as in bicycle restoration. You are an accomplished old man.

IMO, Museum are there to preserve items, and I have never seen a totally rusted bicycle or car on display. I guess they leave that to the private collectors to do!


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## locomotion (Nov 10, 2016)

I guess this tread is going off course, as my original question was simply about wood rims!!


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## locomotion (Nov 10, 2016)

As a closing statement, I would like to add:

LET'S MAKE BIKE COLLECTING FUN AGAIN.


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## Brian R. (Nov 10, 2016)

Mongeese, you can make your point without being rude, but your logic is flawed. If everyone followed your argument, then art galleries would need to remove all their paintings from display and put them in storage in a dark room since exposure to light over long periods of time fades the colours and deteriorates the paint and canvas. Galleries continue to show paintings with the knowledge of the harm being caused to them from exposure to light - why? because paintings are meant to be viewed by the public not stored away in some rich guy's vault. Bicycles are meant to be ridden because that's why they were built in the first place and riding them is an important part of this hobby. At the same time, we can make intelligent choices on a case-by-case basis. The bike I referred to earlier for which I cut off the hard tires came to me as a frame and wheels only; no handlebars or stem, no saddle or seat post, no pedals, and no fenders. Also, a previous owner had painted the frame and rims in black paint, which had cracked over time. Upon seeing it, one person commented that it looked as if it had been in a fire. This bike will be restored to riding condition. I also have an 1897 white-rimmed Crescent with hard tires that I will not cut off, since they are the original grey tires that compliment the original white painted rims. I will also not repaint the white rims even though much of it has flaked off.

I think Locomotion's reference to antique cars is the better comparison. When was the last time you saw an antique car with rock hard tires? I've never met an owner who says their antique car should be garaged and never driven because that would compromise it's originality. Back in my student days I had a job at a science and tech museum, and they had me driving a 1923 fire truck for the public to see and enjoy. Why should bicycles be any different?


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## Brian R. (Nov 10, 2016)

Locomotion, as you said, this post is getting off track. Going back to your original question, my two cents of advice is to approach it on a case-by-case basis. I have some spare wood rims that I've picked up at various times and I'm in the process of matching them up with cracked rims that I want to replace. Usually the front rim is okay and the rear rim is cracked, so I rescue the coaster brake from the cracked wheel and will spoke it into a rim that has the same profile shape as the original front rim. The new spokes will not match the old spokes on the front wheel, but we can't have it all. I have not been able to remove 100+ year old spokes without many of them snapping. I also have 4 rims on the way from The Stutzman wheel shop in Ohio. You asked about paint - that's a tough call. Personally, I would hate to lose the original painted stripes on a rim. If the rim is badly warped, can you take it apart, try to straighten it and respoke it?


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## mongeese (Nov 10, 2016)

I wasn't trying to be rude to any individual. I was speaking on my general experience in the hobby. The words I wrote were not meant to hurt anybody.


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## pelletman (Nov 10, 2016)

I will only clean original paint, not paint over it.  It usually cleans up pretty well.  Restore the rusty stuff if you want.  But if a bike is yours, you can do whatever it is you want.


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## locomotion (Nov 10, 2016)

pelletman said:


> I will only clean original paint, not paint over it.  It usually cleans up pretty well.  Restore the rusty stuff if you want.  But if a bike is yours, you can do whatever it is you want.




Why is everyone talking about rust and paint?  I said from the start that I would not repaint the bike and leave the art work as-is. My question was about the wood rims!!!   Make them rideable or leave them as-is?   That was a simple straight forward question, then it got all mixed up in other stuff.
I was also wondering if there was a product (safe one) that could bring out the contrast between the paint (usually black) and the scrolls (usually gold) without damaging anything.
Pretty simple.
Yes they are my bikes, and yes I can do whatever I want, that is obvious Pellet. I was just looking to see what other guys are doing in this case.
Thanks to Brian, Sped Man and Redline for their views on the restoration of wood rims.


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## Wheeled Relics (Nov 11, 2016)

Cleaning patina off old parts you have no intention of using yourself is and always will be a "mistake" that can't be undone. I will continue to say this in the nicest way possible.


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## locomotion (Nov 11, 2016)

Wheeled Relics said:


> Cleaning patina off old parts you have no intention of using yourself is and always will be a "mistake" that can't be undone. I will continue to say this in the nicest way possible.



it sure is, I think we got that far


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## slcurts (Nov 21, 2016)

The safe way to do it is to buy a new set of rims that take 700C tires, either the wood ones from Noah Stutzmann or some black alloy Velocity Blunts, and use them for riding the bike and save the old wood rims for future collectors. Tires for the old ones cost a small fortune anyway.


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