# Monark 5 Bar-Recent purchase and some questions-help needed



## brucejr (Jun 23, 2013)

I recently purchased this 5 bar on EBay.  I welcome all comments about the bike in general, good and bad, but first really need your help with an important issue.

The bike was advertised as a complete bike, but what came to me was missing the seat, the pedals, the kickstand (not a butterfly), the truss rod bracket and other steer tube hardware, and the front axle.








I have of course contacted the seller who claims that he shipped the whole bike and that the parts missing were all contained in a box that was inside of the large bike box that I received.  Sounds odd to me but again not to be resolved here.

My main question for all of you is how hard/costly will it be to find these parts?  I assume the seat and pedals aren't anything super rare but do have concern about finding the truss rod bracket and also the bearing cup if it is anything special due to the frame construction at the steer tube.

Here are a few pics of the bike as sold.















Any help would be really appreciated.

Thanks.

Bruce


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## carlitos60 (Jun 23, 2013)

*Parts Needed!*

Those Missing Parts are Very Common; Just Keep Looking Here or eBay!

Or, Just Sell it to Me Like It Is!  PM Me! 

Good Luck in Your Search!!


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## Freqman1 (Jun 23, 2013)

My reply from your original post--Bruce its kinda hard to tell from the pics but as advertised it looks like it had the wrong seat and pedals anyway. The rack is wrong, guard missing? and bars aren't correct and don't think stem is either. The truss rods shouldn't be too big of a deal. The seat should be a Troxel M1 with a black chassis--they also made these with chrome as well. The pedals are standard Torrington #8s. The truss bracket may take a little searching but I need a few of these for the Monark badged five bar versions and was just thinking of having someone make a few for me. This bike was equipped with a standard dropstand so that's not a problem either. Regarding the head set. These have a spacer on the cups if they are like the Monark badged versions--I can provide more info if needed. The bike should also have a front load Delta. The bad part is you're gonna wind up having at least a few hundred more dollars spent to make this bike complete--I hope the chainring isn't drilled for a pie crust guard or the number just went up! Hope this helps and good luck with your Five Bar. V/r Shawn


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## brucejr (Jun 23, 2013)

Shawn-

Thanks for the input.  

I will follow up with better photos for sure, but if I end up searching for parts I would rather search for the correct ones.

Can you give an estimate on the market value for the seat, the pedals, the kickstand and the steer tube hardware?  I can search too but you may just know off of the top of your head.

Obviously nothing on the bike was in good shape but was at least rideable.  

The other stuff that is incorrect is my deal not the sellers for sure.

Bruce


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## brucejr (Jun 23, 2013)

Also, if anyone has these parts that they would like to sell please email to dross@brucebolander.com or send a PM here. (Email is best)

Thanks.

Bruce


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## Freqman1 (Jun 23, 2013)

I've bought a couple Troxel M1s--a restored one from Bob U. about $300 and an unrestored, but presentable off ebay for around $100 or so. The pedals are pretty easy to come by just depends on how nice you want $45-125. The drop stand and clip may run $75 or so. The headset is actually a standard Monark piece but they tack welded, what amounts to, a strip of a soup can around the inner race to take up the slack of the oversized 'collars' at the ends of the head tube. The rack is a standard McCauley item used on a bunch of '30s-'40s bikes. If you need that pie crust guard ain't know telling what one of those will bring--$200-300??? I specialize more in the Monark badged version of the Five Bar so maybe someone like Fordmike65 could shed better light on this model than me. V/r Shawn


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## widpanic02 (Jun 23, 2013)

*!*

Stem is correct,  Bars are wrong though.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 23, 2013)

See post #29 of this thread for pics of the headset cups to see what I'm talking about. V/r Shawn

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...5-Bar-4-bar-Thread/page3&highlight=superframe


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## widpanic02 (Jun 23, 2013)

*!*

I actually have an extra set of these trust rods and bracket ? I also have a correct drop stand . The bars should be a more rectangular shape . I will send you pics of my hawthorne 5 bar ( monark made) I have an extra 5 bar fork as well . Mike and I have talked about getting John to make some pie crust guards because they are impossible to find. They look best with the pie crust but next to that they are best looking with no guard at all! The m1 is not as easy to find as you think and if you do find one its probably going to be. 250-300. Good luck . If youcwsntbthe parts I have let be know.


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## widpanic02 (Jun 23, 2013)

*!*

Yes the headset is different it has little spacers that hold them in place. The headtube is a funny shape so they fall out without the spacer. All they are is little pieces of aluminum.


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## brucejr (Jun 23, 2013)

This is all super helpful.

I do remember the spacers from the other posts.  I can handle making those myself.

Are the rest of the headset pieces also standard Monark, and did they change much from year to year?

Looking forward to better close up pics Widpanic02.  I have a truss rod bracket from a Western Flyer that looks identical, would it be the same?

I agree that the bike looks better without a chainguard if it didn"t come with pie crust guard.  Since I'm not a huge fan of the sheet metal parts it may stay that way for a while.

In fairness to the seller I can come up with a cost of 'period correctish' stuff like what was on the bike when it was sold.

And I will get some better photos and serial numbers for you all in the next week or so.


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## brucejr (Jun 23, 2013)

*One more thing*

Can any of you ID this rack?

Since it isn't correct I will probably offer it up for sale but would like to know what it is.  One side of the bracket that mounts to the seatpost clamp is broken off/missing.


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## brucejr (Jun 23, 2013)

*Good news and bad news*

The sprocket is drilled for the pie crust guard.  They are pretty sweet looking so I guess put me on the list of guys looking for one.  BTW I have CAD access/ability and some connection to fabricators if that helps.





I also read through the other post on the 5 Bars.  For sure it is more about the Monarks but looking at the top of this seat tube it really looks like it came from the factory as it is now.  For someone to have made as clean/straight a cut as this in between the two main top tube  frame bars it after the frame was welded up would have been pretty tough.









Not to question you guys that have been looking and researching these things for lots of years but just something that kind of stuck out to me when I looked at the frame.  Seems like the top tube bars are spread much wider at the intersection with the seat tube on the Hawthorne.


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## JAF/CO (Jun 24, 2013)

*1938 hawthorne twin bar*

hi

your bike looks like a 1938 hawthorne twin bar

not a monarch 5 bar ?

need to do some research before buying parts


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 24, 2013)

The headtube and the downtubes running under the crank hanger are Monark stylings...among other indicators.
I am wrong sometimes, but I am confident in that statement.
Chris


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## JAF/CO (Jun 24, 2013)

maybe i should say built by monark for wards as a twin bar 1938
the monark that most people call a 5 bar has a different frame





JAF/CO said:


> hi
> 
> your bike looks like a 1938 hawthorne twin bar
> 
> ...


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## fordmike65 (Jun 24, 2013)

*Just like my TANKLESS Monark 5Bar*


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## JAF/CO (Jun 24, 2013)

*here is a 5bar*

look at the second bar it is straight not curved


http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=101813&d=1372073674


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## widpanic02 (Jun 24, 2013)

*!*

I have a monark made hawthorne badged 5 bar, not all of the hawthorne 5 bars are monark made , in 1938 monark made the hawthorne line a spin off of there spiegel airman badged 5 bar but if its monark made its a 5 bar . I believe the other hawthorbe 5 bars are Snyder made if I'm not mistaken. Personally any monark made bicycles no matter what they are badged as I count the tubes. 4 bars in the girls 4 bar 5 bars on the monark boys bikes . It might not be catalog terminology but its the lingo I use.


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## fordmike65 (Jun 24, 2013)

widpanic02 said:


> I have a monark made hawthorne badged 5 bar, not all of the hawthorne 5 bars are monark made , in 1938 monark made the hawthorne line a spin off of there spiegel airman badged 5 bar but if its monark made its a 5 bar . I believe the other gawthorbe 5 bars are Snyder made if I'm not correct. Personally any monark made bicycles no matter what they are badged as I count the tubes. 4 bars in the girls 4 bar 5 bars on the monark boys bikes . It might not be catalog terminology but its the lingo I use.




That's the way I've seen these referred as. Maybe not? Telltale sign is the hanging bottom-bracket. Love the frame design whether it's a tanked version or not.


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## widpanic02 (Jun 24, 2013)

*Pics*

Pics!!!!!!


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 24, 2013)

Jim, I read your comment wrong, sorry man.

That said, I refer to Snyder and CWC '39 Zeps as 5-bars as I also refer to the Monark lines as 5-bars regardless of badging....just about the tubes.
I am not sure if the term "5-bar" was used in literature as "twin bar" was though, I think it is a collector's slang.
I won't even get into the twin bar references...
Chris


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## widpanic02 (Jun 24, 2013)

*!!!!!!*

Just some pics of some parts of my 5 bar . Been slowly prepping it for resto over the lady few months when I'm not restoring original paint bikes. Notice the color of the fenders . Dark blue was the color of mine and if the previous owner had not iver sprayed it with this purple flutter paint I probably could if saved the paint. 





The only part I need is the pie crust , but like I said before they are nearly impossible to find. In fact I have never seen one in real life.


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## widpanic02 (Jun 24, 2013)

*!*

I do know in the catalog the refer to the Snyder built hawthorne's as twin bars but don't really know about the monarks because I don't think they are in there.


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## fordmike65 (Jun 24, 2013)

Guess it was officially referred to as the Hawthorne Twin Bar.


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 24, 2013)

Hey kids...what's cooler than a 5-bar bicycle?
A 5-bar with a jeweled tank, BAMM!


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## widpanic02 (Jun 24, 2013)

*!*

I just want everyone to know I am currently looking for one of these tanks ! I have pretty much every part to restore the bike but the jeweled tank! If anyone knows where I can get one please do tell!


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## fordmike65 (Jun 24, 2013)

scrubbinrims said:


> Hey kids...what's cooler than a 5-bar bicycle?
> A 5-bar with a jeweled tank, BAMM!
> View attachment 101855






Show off!!!


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## widpanic02 (Jun 24, 2013)

*!*

The one thing I don't understand about that zep is supposedly its Hp Snyder built but what's with the cwc rack ,chainguard, etc?


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## scrubbinrims (Jun 24, 2013)

fordmike65 said:


> Show off!!!




Maybe a bit :o but I am proud to own this rare model.
Phil told me back when I got it just how few there are with tanks, but I cannot remember exactly...something around 12 or so.
Chris


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## fordmike65 (Jun 24, 2013)

scrubbinrims said:


> Maybe a bit :o but I am proud to own this rare model.
> Phil told me back when I got it just how few there are with tanks, but I cannot remember exactly...something around 12 or so.
> Chris




I'd show it off too if it was mine. It's freaking gorgeous! Maybe if widpanic02 finds a tank, it'll be 13.


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## widpanic02 (Jun 24, 2013)

*!*

I stocked up on the parts so one day when the tank came along ! The one on luxlow is badass too! Another thing I don't understand about that particular one is yours has the truss fork and the luxlow one dies as well , but in the catalog they come with the shockmaster !


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## widpanic02 (Jun 24, 2013)

*!*

I stocked up on the parts so one day when the tank came along ! The one on luxlow is badass too! Another thing I don't understand about that particular one is yours has the truss fork and the luxlow one dies as well , but in the catalog they come with the shockmaster !


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## brucejr (Jun 24, 2013)

Fordmike can you read what the seat spec is for the twin bar model with the pie crust guard?

Doesn't look like the long spring Troxel from the photo, but when I zoom in the ad gets too fuzzy to read.


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## Freqman1 (Jun 24, 2013)

brucejr said:


> Fordmike can you read what the seat spec is for the twin bar model with the pie crust guard?
> 
> Doesn't look like the long spring Troxel from the photo, but when I zoom in the ad gets too fuzzy to read.




The seat on that bike is a Troxel Toolbox seat (big $$$). I think where the waters are getting muddied are all the different varieties (and makers) of twin bars/five bars/super frames out there and the various ways they were equipped. The Snyder/CWC bikes have the down tubes going into the crank hanger whereas the Monark version 'cradles' the crank hanger. I don't believe the Monark version of this particular frame ever had a tank. BTW The pic of the black/white Five Bar in this thread is mine. This particular style frame came with a tank. V/r Shawn


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## STRADALITE (Jun 24, 2013)

Here is a link to my Hawthorne 5 bar. Picked it up on Ebay a couple years back for $230.
Phil gave some insight that might help others.
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?18707-5-bar-hawthorne


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## JAF/CO (Jun 24, 2013)

*hawthorne twin bar by monark*

the seat is a troxal with out the tool box

as for the 39 zep.s they were made by snider and cleveland welding


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## brucejr (Jun 24, 2013)

That is the best photo of an original survivor that I have seen so far.  Thanks. 

Is there a model number or name for the Troxel?  Weren't there lots of Troxels available at the time?


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## Freqman1 (Jun 24, 2013)

brucejr said:


> That is the best photo of an original survivor that I have seen so far.  Thanks.
> 
> Is there a model number or name for the Troxel?  Weren't there lots of Troxels available at the time?




As you can see by Phils post he referred to that particular model as a Streamlined. In the photo of Josh's bike you can see this better than in the advertisement. Either way a pretty rare seat. It looks like yours was the earlier model (and should be equipped like Josh's bike) with the piecrust guard and streamline seat. A fat wallet and some patience always pays off though! You could always go the later route with the standard guard and long spring seat until you come across the rare parts. Good luck with your bike. V/r Shawn


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## brucejr (Jun 24, 2013)

Cool.

I will work on both the fat wallet and some patience then.  At least I don't have to mortgage my house for a tank now.

Does anyone have a close-up photo of the pie crust guard?


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## Freqman1 (Jun 25, 2013)

This is the best one I could find from Dave's site (Nostalgic Net). In this case incorrectly used on a tank Five Bar. V/r Shawn


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## brucejr (Jun 25, 2013)

This one is a little better from the same thread.

Trying to get a sense of the profile but really just as a curiosity.


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## Andrew Gorman (Jun 25, 2013)

Here is a bad picture of one on a much scruffier 5 bar:
http://s53.photobucket.com/user/gormanao/media/5Bar.jpg.html?sort=3&o=17
And another:
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3721&d=1241801563


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## brucejr (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks that second one is probably the closest and clearest view yet.


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## fordsnake (Jun 26, 2013)

bracer said:


> This one is a little better from the same thread.
> 
> Trying to get a sense of the profile but really just as a curiosity.
> 
> View attachment 102113



The above photo is one of mine and are of my Monark parts.


Here's an image of another pie crust I recently sold. Its hard to tell from the photo but it has multiple compound curves...it would be a challenge to reproduce?


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## brucejr (Jun 26, 2013)

I see that more now from this photo.

I don't have the skill set to actually reproduce it given all of the curves.  I suppose it could be milled out of a single piece but I'm sure there are guys here who know more about that than I do.  I imagine these were punched so the cutting and forming happened in one single operation.  Remaking dies like that would be a little silly even for the fattest of wallets.

Thinking about toying around with a guard in the spirit of this one that would give a nod to the original but could be made for much less money. (Given that the seat and the pie crust guard will take lots of time and money my bike won't be back to anything close to 'original' for quite some time I imagine.)


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## brucejr (Jul 1, 2013)

*Restoration question*

Since I've started looking at this bike (both mine and the others here) and starting to search for parts a little I think I might have figured something out.

Of course the frame is rare (depending on the definition of rare), but other than that it really just has two other rare parts and never had a tank or even a springer fork.

Since those two rare parts, the seat and the pie crust guard also work with all of the aluminum Monarks, which seem to be way more popular and way more money, that kind of explains why there aren't really any of these that are super clean originals or even really nice restored bikes.

Does that make sense?  Maybe this has been obvious to most of you for longer than I've even known that these existed.


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## Freqman1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Generally speaking I think all Monark Five Bars are generally under appreciated. Regarding your particular model a few things contribute to them being uncommon either restored or original. First the frame was only made for a relatively short time (39-40), second this was kind of a base level model and besides the early ones like yours they didn't have any fancy parts, lastly, even the deluxe Five Bars with tanks are kinda plain looking bikes that don't draw a lot of attention. There are some really nice restored tank model bikes out there as well as a couple of nice originals (scarce) one of which I'm lucky enough to own. I also have four other tank Five Bar projects going. One will be a custom--don't worry I'm not going to hurt anything, another is a dual suspension bike that will be badged as an Airman (Comet model), one will be a dual headlight Model 495 GT, and the last will be a standard model like my original bike. I encourage you to track those parts down and restore that bike to its former glory! V/r Shawn


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## scrubbinrims (Jul 2, 2013)

brucejr said:


> Since I've started looking at this bike (both mine and the others here) and starting to search for parts a little I think I might have figured something out.
> 
> Of course the frame is rare (depending on the definition of rare), but other than that it really just has two other rare parts and never had a tank or even a springer fork.
> 
> ...




It is hard to say which troxel is more rare, the toolbox or the skirted version you seek...either way, expect a bidding war when it appears.

As to the piecrust, it is not like these have been robbed off 5-bars to supply aluminum silver king/duraliums...to my knowledge only the flocycle used it and there are not many flocycles around and when they are found, that is one component that is typically still on board.
Chris


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## fordsnake (Jul 2, 2013)

scrubbinrims said:


> As to the piecrust, it is not like these have been robbed off 5-bars to supply aluminum silver king/duraliums...to my knowledge only the flocycle used it and there are not many flocycles around and when they are found, that is one component that is typically still on board.
> Chris




An example of Chris's comments...http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-Hawthorne-Duralium-Flo-Cycle-Monark-Silver-King-/261238052762?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=8Na6mJunak7peY4eodaKnj%252BlBOk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


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## Freqman1 (Jul 2, 2013)

fordsnake said:


> An example of Chris's comments...http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-Hawthorne-Duralium-Flo-Cycle-Monark-Silver-King-/261238052762?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=8Na6mJunak7peY4eodaKnj%252BlBOk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc




Interesting but the guard on that Flo Cycle doesn't have the pie crust edge like the one you sold Carlton? Two different types of guards? Chris, your comments? V/r Shawn


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## bikewhorder (Jul 2, 2013)

Here's some more 5 bar porn for your viewing pleasure, http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?40033-39-Monark-5-Bar-For-Sale&highlight=monark  I still think about this one occasionally and wish it had fallen into my hands.


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## fordmike65 (Jul 2, 2013)

Yeah, I contemplated that one for a bit as well. No $$$ and no easy way to get it here didn't help. Still regret it.


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## scrubbinrims (Jul 2, 2013)

Freqman1 said:


> Interesting but the guard on that Flo Cycle doesn't have the pie crust edge like the one you sold Carlton? Two different types of guards? Chris, your comments? V/r Shawn




There are two types of guards, the scalloped guard is much more common, but cooler looking than the circle (which my flocycle has as well).
I spoke with Jerry Peters about his some time ago and it is his belief, as it is mine that the circle guards are the first generation production at the end of '35/early '36 and thereafter scalloped...you'll never see a circle guard on a steel Monark.
Chris


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## kingfish254 (Nov 17, 2013)

I have a similar frame to yours on it's way to me now.
http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showth...r-5-Bar-Curved-Second-Bar-Meet-you-at-the-bar


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