# BSA or not ?



## redcub (Jan 15, 2015)

Hello 
i buy my bicycle in a village of britain , France. But now the french man of tontonvelo forum are not convinced by the origin of her. 
You can see all the photos in this topic  :    http://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=19733




 a british bicycle can said to us if the matching number are from bsa or not; Sorry for my bad English.


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## stoney (Jan 15, 2015)

Welcome. I like it. I am not a good reference for what is right or wrong on these bikes though. I am sure some members will come in on the subject. Hope you get the answers you are seeking.


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## redline1968 (Jan 15, 2015)

Yes it's a BSA or at least it's a British racer. Nice original bike too.


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## Halbrenner (Jan 15, 2015)

Affirmative! The steering lock is missing but a superb sample of a negative slope frame too!


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## Wheeled Relics (Jan 15, 2015)

sources say 1905 aprox bsa racer


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## sam (Jan 15, 2015)

Nice BSA Lite Roadster!!


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## corbettclassics (Jan 15, 2015)

sam said:


> Nice BSA Lite Roadster!!




The BSA's that I'm familiar with had a real dropped tube like this one.

I also have a 1900 French "ZINGER" in the collection that has a sloped top tube.


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## Velo-dream (Jan 16, 2015)

_*comme expliqué sur le forum tonton vélo (voir mon dernier massage)

un vélo, avec des pièces BSA, n'est pas nécessairement un vélo BSA 

mais ca reste un beau vélo*_

as statet in my latest reply on the " Forum tonton velo ", a bike, consisting of BSA parts, does not have to be called
a BSA bicycle

but it is still a nice bike

cdt, rgds

velootje


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## redcub (Jan 16, 2015)

For this reason , i try to contact a specialist of bsa bicycle , like this man : https://bsamuseum.wordpress.com/1-welcome-to-the-bsa-museum/ . Perhaps he can have the reference of old BSA or the typical referencing ot matching number of 1900 to 1920/30.


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## Wing Your Heel (Feb 1, 2015)

For this reason , i try to contact a specialist of bsa bicycle , like this man : https://bsamuseum.wordpress.com/1-we...he-bsa-museum/ . Perhaps he can have the reference of old BSA or the typical referencing ot matching number of 1900 to 1920/30.

Bonjour copain,

Avant 1909 BSA n'a pas fait bicyclettes complètes, mais seulement vendu des composants pour les gens à construire leurs propres vélos. Le nom que nous donnons une telle bicyclette est un 'BSA FITTINGS BIKE.'
Il ne existe aucun registre de numéros pour les premiers vélos BSA, et à l'époque de votre vélo ne importe quel cadre peuvent être utilisés de manière un certain nombre ne est pas pertinent.
BSA raccords étaient encore vendus, même après 1909 - ce qui a permis toute petite boutique de vélos local pour fournir un vélo avec des composants de qualité à un client pour la moitié du prix d'une bicyclette régulière de la qualité. Votre vélo est assez similaire à celui ci-dessous, que je ai vendu il ya quelques mois à un client en France -

Before 1909 BSA did not make complete bicycles, but only sold components for people to build their own bicycles. The name we give such a bicycle is a 'BSA FITTINGS BIKE.' There are no records of numbers for early BSA bicycles, and in the era of your bicycle any frame could be used so a number is irrelevant. BSA Fittings were still sold even after 1909 - this enabled any small local bicycle shop to provide a bicycle with quality components to a customer for half the price of a regular quality bicycle. Your bicycle is quite similar to the one below, that I sold a few months ago to a customer in France -

http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/1912-2/1912-bsa-road-racer-built-from-a-pattern-fittings/


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## Andrew Gorman (Feb 1, 2015)

BSA made bicycle parts not complete bicycles. I agree with velootje. Still a very nice bike.


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## bikejunk (Feb 1, 2015)

they did make complete bicycles, motocycles, and guns


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## Wing Your Heel (Feb 1, 2015)

quote -they did make complete bicycles, motocycles, and guns

quote - BSA made bicycle parts not complete bicycles


Already answered - Before 1909 BSA did not make complete bicycles, but only sold components for people to build their own bicycles. The name we give such a bicycle is a 'BSA FITTINGS BIKE.' There are no records of numbers for early BSA bicycles, and in the era of your bicycle any frame could be used so a number is irrelevant. BSA Fittings were still sold even after 1909 - this enabled any small local bicycle shop to provide a bicycle with quality components to a customer for half the price of a regular quality bicycle. Your bicycle is quite similar to the one below, that I sold a few months ago to a customer in France -

http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/1912-2/...tern-fittings/


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## Andrew Gorman (Feb 1, 2015)

Sheesh... BSA made high quality parts and some utility grade bikes.  Calling a 1930's bike with BSA parts would  be like calling a 1970's Falcon with the stickers peeled off  a " Campanoglo".  Look at the reprint 1938 Island Cycle Supply  catalog and their top of the line bike had BSA bits but was not a BSA bike.  How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


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## bikejunk (Feb 2, 2015)

Wing Your Heel did'nt BSA make bicycles in the hard tire era I saw one at a wheelmen meet a few years ago ? or am I mistaken .  the same can be said for motorcycle as to components none before 1909 .


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## Wing Your Heel (Feb 2, 2015)

Wilkepaedia says -

'Bicycle production ceased in 1887 as the company concentrated on producing the Lee-Metford magazine loading rifle for the War Office which was re-equipping the British Army with it. The order was for 1,200 rifles per week. BSA recommenced manufacturing bicycles on their own behalf from 1908'

Actually they announced it in 1909 for the 1910 season.


You will not see any genuine BSA safety bicycles. They made a few prototypes just before the first safety bike was launched in 1886, that's all. Copake will apparently have an ordinary in the next sale that the owner claims is a BSA, but it is not, it just has some BSA fittings.

As i said, most early bikes with BSA chainwheel are not BSA bicycles just fittings bicycles. You have to examine the frame carefully to see if that is a BSA too, eg headlock, rear dropouts, bb, lugs. All the info is easily accessible on the Bsabikes.co.uk website.


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## bikejunk (Feb 2, 2015)

I saw  a blank un-built frame HTS that is in a New York collection (about 10 years ago )  interesting  you say prototypes   do you know if any BSA labeled bikes were maketed just for the US in the 1880's -1890's ?

 also I have learned not to trust fully wickepedia as a source a few years back I owned a lea-Francis motorcycle and their entry about it  picturing my bike was so wrong it was wobbled the mind , but sometimes that all we have . thank you for the info


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## sam (Feb 2, 2015)

BSA made and sold over 1500 safety bicycles , Patented 21st nov 1884 , patn# 15342
Pryor to this the BSA factory had made some bicycles and tricycles under contract.
June 1888 decided to stop cycle manufacturing
again started in 1893 making parts
was decided to build complete cycles  in the BSA factory  in 1908.
From "Bartleet's Bicycle Book" 
Just what Collin said---but it would be interesting to see an original BSA Safety---Was there one in the Bartleet collection? , which is now the British Museum of Transportation


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## Wing Your Heel (Feb 2, 2015)

Bartleet wrong quite often. I definitely would not depend on Wikipedia for facts, but they were just one of many sources showing BSA stopped making complete bikes.
Bsa produced an early history leaflet in 1918:

_The output of B.S.A. safety bicycles and tricycles steadily increased during the next three years, but in 1887 the Government demand for rifles and ammunition rendered it incumbent upon the Company to temporarily discontinue the manufacture of bicycles and tricycles, and for six years nothing was done in this direction beyond the production of a limited quantity of Kelsey's Duplex Safety Bicycle Crank Axle Bearings. During those six years the Company manufactured not only rifles, but also large numbers of six-pounder and three-pounder cartridges for quick-firing guns._

A bit ambiguous, but they mean that parts manufacture recommenced: _When the Government demand for rifles and ammunition somewhat declined, the Company once more was enabled to take up the manufacture of bicycles, and early in 1893 commenced the manufacture of safety bicycle hubs, examples of which were exhibited at the Crystal Palace Show that same year._

Remember that although they had stopped making bicycles in 1887, BSA components were still available from previous manufacture, so surviving bicycles (ordinaries) might exist with BSA parts.

It says that in 1908 they decided at a board meeting to start making complete bikes again. But they did not come onto the market in 1908.

_In 1908, to meet the somewhat altered conditions of trade, it was considered advisable to manufacture complete B.S.A. Bicycles in the B.S.A. Factories. In announcing the new policy at the Annual Meeting the Chairman stated 'that the Company had decided to widen the policy in regard to the manufacture of complete bicycles. Hitherto only cycle agents were supplied with complete machines bearing an agent's transfer. In view of the somewhat altered conditions of the trade, it was considered advisable to manufacture a complete B.S.A. Bicycle, under the most rigid inspection, with the world-famed B.S.A. Fittings.

There would be one grade of machine-the highest possible quality only. The machine so offered to the public would be listed at a higher price than that at which bicycles built with B.S.A. Fittings had been sold by local agents and makers. The management believed that this would not only create a greater demand for B.S.A. productions, but that it would have a steadying effect on the cycle trade generally. Such a policy must tend to place the B.S.A. Fittings on a higher plane, and to a great extent prevent bicycles built with B.S.A. Fittings being sold at ridiculously low prices, showing little or no margin of profit to the retailer.' Although the new policy was severely criticised, events have proved that it not only helped the trade generally, but was much appreciated by the public. The complete B.S.A. Bicycle produced at The B.S.A. Company's works bears a special transfer._

The complete history leaflet reproduced here -

https://bsamuseum.wordpress.com/about/

Bear in mind that BSA Fittings provided customers with a much cheaper, but still top quality bicycle. BSA Fittings continued to be sold separately (alongside complete BSA bicycles), so Fittings bicycles continued to be made for many years after (particularly in Australia, where most manufacturers used BSA components)

Here's the 1900 BSA Fittings catalogue -

http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/1901-2/1900-bsa-fittings-catalogue/






Just to confuse matters, BSA did also make bicycle frames too in the early 20th century, which were BSA Spring-frames. These could be supplied By BSA as complete bicycles (in knock-down form). The idea of this was to provide the trade with a complete machine so they could fit an engine to create what was known at the time as a 'motor bicycle.' This was a particularly popular option in Australia. 
A good example to understand the nature of a BSA Fittings Machine is this bike, which has a small local builder's decals, but is totally a BSA, i.e. all components plus the spring-frame made by BSA -

http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/1902-2/1904-bsa-spring-frame-roadster/


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## oldbikejoe (Dec 5, 2021)

redcub said:


> Hello
> i buy my bicycle in a village of britain , France. But now the french man of tontonvelo forum are not convinced by the origin of her.
> You can see all the photos in this topic  :    http://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=19733
> View attachment 191169
> a british bicycle can said to us if the matching number are from bsa or not; Sorry for my bad English.



Her crank is of the BSA third pattern 1904-1907. In 1908 they went to the BSA letters forming the crank frame structure.


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## stezell (Dec 5, 2021)

Welcome to the group Joe the guy that started this post hasn't been on here for close to 7 years. Good information though. 
Sean


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