# Help with I.D. please



## rollfaster (Mar 20, 2015)

Very cheap find. Elgin headbadge painted over, but has a monark sprocket and dogleg crank. Forward facing dropouts and rear elgin finned hub(no oil port). Can't make out the serial number yet but it's on the crank hanger. Any help would be great. Rob.


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## ThegoodThebad&Therusty (Mar 20, 2015)

Evidently, Monark did build bikes badged as Elgins ~ http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?21836-Elgin-Monark-Please-Help-With-Any-Info&highlight=monark+badged+elgin

I think the bikehoarder has some knowledge in this area.

pap
.


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## rollfaster (Mar 20, 2015)

ThegoodThebad&Therusty said:


> Evidently, Monark did build bikes badged as Elgins ~ http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?21836-Elgin-Monark-Please-Help-With-Any-Info&highlight=monark+badged+elgin
> 
> I think the bikehoarder has some knowledge in this area.
> 
> ...




Thanks pap. That helps a bunch. Going to strip the nasty paint on Sunday. Then hopefully I'll be able to read the serial number. I've got plenty of parts laying around to make this a good rider for work.


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## rollfaster (Mar 20, 2015)

*More pics*

Dogleg crank, monark sprocket and finned rear hub.


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## ThegoodThebad&Therusty (Mar 20, 2015)

Rob, here's an image from an old thread here on the CABE ~




http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?39613-OLD-Elgin-bicycle-w-serial-and-model-numbers&highlight=monark+built+elgin

pap
.


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## Jeff54 (Mar 20, 2015)

rollfaster said:


> Very cheap find. Elgin headbadge painted over, but has a monark sprocket and dogleg crank. Forward facing dropouts and rear elgin finned hub(no oil port). Can't make out the serial number yet but it's on the crank hanger. Any help would be great. Rob.




Think you've got a hufman/Monark  frame there. I've the same frame but newer, 1955 Huffy. the type of mount bracket for the kick stand tiped me off. I remember those as a kid, they continued em for many years, the 50'-60s models would crunch that bracket in as the kick stand continued to get lose,, tighten-retighten etc. .

Anyways, you've got brazed joints and it's going to take you into the post/prewar period.. For the drop-out type I'd guess 46-47 ish. 

Here's the 55 'Huffy made' Western Flyer frame I have,, but by then there were electro welded versed braised. Yet they're are almost identical as a type.


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## rollfaster (Mar 21, 2015)

ThegoodThebad&Therusty said:


> Rob, here's an image from an old thread here on the CABE ~
> 
> View attachment 203443
> http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?39613-OLD-Elgin-bicycle-w-serial-and-model-numbers&highlight=monark+built+elgin
> ...




Thanks pap. Very close to what I have. I'm thinking late 40s.


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## rustjunkie (Mar 21, 2015)

Is there a small stamp on the rear hub shell, brake arm side? Should be a symbol and letter.


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## rollfaster (Mar 21, 2015)

rustjunkie said:


> Is there a small stamp on the rear hub shell, brake arm side? Should be a symbol and letter.




I'm going to pull it apart tomorrow. I'll clean the hub first to see if I can find it. The wife has me busy all day today. Gotta love it. Thanks Scott.


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## rollfaster (Mar 23, 2015)

So weird, I can't find a serial number anywhere on this frame. Anybody have any clues?


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## Jeff54 (Mar 23, 2015)

rollfaster said:


> So weird, I can't find a serial number anywhere on this frame. Anybody have any clues?




Check bottom bracket, if there's holes like this the serial number plate was removed. Accordingly: Monarch used the ID tag from 1946-54




 

However others have found numbers stamped lightly in the same place;  discovered after removing the paint. 

Pretty sure, for the forward drop-outs and what appears to be brass brazing,  you're going to date that in the 46 (some have blackout hubs and crank) too 47-8 range.


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## rollfaster (Mar 23, 2015)

Jeff54 said:


> Check bottom bracket, if there's holes like this the serial number plate was removed. Accordingly: Monarch used the ID tag from 1946-54
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks Jeff. Looks exactly like that, but I don't remember seeing those two little holes.


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## rollfaster (Mar 23, 2015)

What I don't understand is, I thought the elgin name was gone after the war. So how does this postwar bike wear a prewar badge. Seems to me it's a monark rocket with an elgin badge and a finned elgin brake arm hub. Strange to me. Rob.


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## Jeff54 (Mar 23, 2015)

rollfaster said:


> What I don't understand is, I thought the elgin name was gone after the war. So how does this postwar bike wear a prewar badge. Seems to me it's a monark rocket with an elgin badge and a finned elgin brake arm hub. Strange to me. Rob.




Maybe see it more clearly if knew whether the whole frame is brazed as it appears in photos. And if so, speculate whether Monarch or Elgin made reverse drop-outs pre-war. Did Monarch acquire Elgin?

Here's a Monark that appears to have brazing, the site says it's a 46 monark built Elgin.


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## rollfaster (Mar 26, 2015)

Now it really gets weird. It looks to have never had a tag under the crank like most monarks, but I found a serial number on the right rear dropout. Never seen that before. Rob.


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## Adamtinkerer (Mar 28, 2015)

Could be a 45, since the tags didn't start til 46.


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## rollfaster (Mar 29, 2015)

*Finished it today*

Keep in mind, it's going to be used as a yard bike for the delivery service I work for. I will use this bike on a daily basis, and it beats the hell out of walking. I gave a rust job over original and bare metal. Spent little to nothing on the bike and used spare parts to put it together. It looks old and that's the point, but rides great. It will serve its purpose. Rob.


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## Jeff54 (Mar 29, 2015)

rollfaster said:


> Keep in mind, it's going to be used as a yard bike for the delivery service I work for. I will use this bike on a daily basis, and it beats the hell out of walking. I gave a rust job over original and bare metal. Spent little to nothing on the bike and used spare parts to put it together. It looks old and that's the point, but rides great. It will serve its purpose. Rob.




If that's the case then here's a tip.

Whenever it gets too dirty ya can't stand it any longer, get you self a bottle of toilet bowl cleaner at the dollar store fer a buck.. give it a good scrubbing wit it, let it soak and dry, it'll clean off all the rust and dirt, but, then, because the hydrochloric acid in the cleaner will do such a good job of getting it to bare metal, just leave it out side or ride while a whole new 'patina' is created. The more ya expose it the rustier it'll get. once ya hit your desired rust bucket status, give it a  good cleaning wit distilled water, especially deep in the cracks and crevasses, and spray a clear coat to seal it. Dollar store toilet bowl cleaner is otherwise known as rust bucket fer a buck additive. [grin]


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## Freqman1 (Mar 29, 2015)

Jeff54 said:


> Maybe see it more clearly if knew whether the whole frame is brazed as it appears in photos. And if so, speculate whether Monarch or Elgin made reverse drop-outs pre-war. Did Monarch acquire Elgin?
> 
> Here's a Monark that appears to have brazing, the site says it's a 46 monark built Elgin.




Need to clear something up here. Elgin was a Sears badge and was not a manufacturer. Monark did make some bikes pre war bikes for Sears which would have had the Elgin badge. I believe the Elgin brand is seen on a few post war bikes (Monarch or Murray) right before they transitioned to the Higgins (Sears) brand. Like Elgin, J.C. Higgins was merely a Sears brand and not a manufacturer so Monarch did not acquire Elgin or Higgins for that matter. V/r Shawn


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## rollfaster (Mar 29, 2015)

Exactly. Monark is the manufacture and elgin( Sears) is the brand name. This threw me off a bit but then I was told that jc Higgins didnt debut as a sears name until 1947.


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## Jeff54 (Mar 29, 2015)

Freqman1 said:


> Need to clear something up here. Elgin was a Sears badge and was not a manufacturer. Monark did make some bikes pre war bikes for Sears which would have had the Elgin badge. I believe the Elgin brand is seen on a few post war bikes (Monarch or Murray) right before they transitioned to the Higgins (Sears) brand. Like Elgin, J.C. Higgins was merely a Sears brand and not a manufacturer so Monarch did not acquire Elgin or Higgins for that matter. V/r Shawn





Tks Shawn I was thinking something along those lines so, ya made me dig a little. I haven't fancied Elgins much, most are priced too far from what I'd pay fer a two wheeler,  so have not looked much either. 

Yet, Nostalgic net, has the patent availed for the Elgin bluebird and while sears did not make the bluebird they are the assignor to the inventor. "attributed to Kelvin H. Booty, assignor to Sears, Roebuck and Co. " http://www.nostalgic.net/1936-elgin-bluebird-patent.

And Dave's remarks this: "The Elgin Bluebird, Robin, Blackhawk, Flightlinger and Spaceliner were all Sears exclusives. Sears primarily used the Westfield Mfg. Co. and Murray of Ohio to produce their special bicycles designs. Sears bicycles sold before World War II were branded as Elgin, and after World War II as J.C. Higgins." http://www.nostalgic.net/elgin-j-c-higgins-bicycles"

Then Dave is not citing Monarch bikes nor post war Elgin's I guess post war Sears was no longer able to afford their own line and branded monarch's lowest line as Elgin.


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## Freqman1 (Mar 29, 2015)

Jeff,
    Keep in mind Dave's notes are pretty much broad overviews and not necessarily definitive histories of the various marques. I'm not so sure it was a matter of being able to afford but rather a business decision to go cheaper rather than commission exclusive designs. Conjecture on my part but seems plausible. V/r Shawn


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## Jeff54 (Mar 29, 2015)

Freqman1 said:


> Jeff,
> Keep in mind Dave's notes are pretty much broad overviews and not necessarily definitive histories of the various marques. I'm not so sure it was a matter of being able to afford but rather a business decision to go cheaper rather than commission exclusive designs. Conjecture on my part but seems plausible. V/r Shawn




Yes conjecture on my part too because of the Elgin things I've discovered through this thread is this type of bike appears to be Monark's lowest priced model. So, presumably Sears couldn't toss the exciting cash post war.


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