# The Facts About A Schwinn Serial Number



## GTs58

I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on what exactly a serial number on a bike actually is, mainly Schwinn’s. There is mass confusion with the big rumor of a Schwinn serial number, with it’s recorded date, being somehow the actual build date of a particular bike. A serial number is just a serial number and it has absolutely nothing to do with any build date. In 1976 Schwinn started stamping the actual build date on the head badges and not one has matched the recorded date of a serial number. So were does everyone get the wild idea that the serial number is related to any build date? The serial number was used for future identification purposes and that was the only intended purpose of that number. Please fill me in with some hard facts that can prove the serial number with it’s recorded date is somehow the build date of a bike.


----------



## island schwinn

it's true because someone told me that once.
an old wives tale if you ask me.


----------



## 2jakes

*Schwinn Serial Number*



GTs58 said:


> I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on what exactly a serial number on a bike actually is, mainly Schwinn’s. There is mass confusion with the big rumor of a Schwinn serial number, with it’s recorded date, being somehow the actual build date of a particular bike. A serial number is just a serial number and it has absolutely nothing to do with any build date. In 1976 Schwinn started stamping the actual build date on the head badges and not one has matched the recorded date of a serial number. So were does everyone get the wild idea that the serial number is related to any build date? The serial number was used for future identification purposes and that was the only intended purpose of that number. Please fill me in with some hard facts that can prove the serial number with it’s recorded date is somehow the build date of a bike.














The above are photo copies, but perhaps he may provide
some insight or hard facts.   crawford20@hotmail.com


----------



## GTs58

I have tried to contact Pat the creator of the Schwinncruisers site many times to ask him exactly were did he get the preposterous idea that the serial number tells you the actual build date of a Schwinn. There are other sites that also follow in this dumbness telling the uninformed newbie that the serial gives you the build date. I'm just trying to find out why everyone believes this falsehood because it's spreading like the smell from a dairy farm.


----------



## kos22us

i've always thought the serial number dated the frame build not the complete bike build, for example i have a deluxe hornet ballooner which was a two year run for the heavyweights i think 55' & 56' but my bikes serial number dates it to a 54', i always assumed they would just build a bunch of frames and then grab them out of the pile as needed, same probably goes for parts, look at the 53' deluxe spitfire 1 year only, that model always seemed random & out of the blue to me, they probably had a stock pile of the tanks or frames so to use them up they added the model to the lineup


or ... i could be completely wrong about everything


----------



## cyclebuster

Brian Crawford has the Schwinn Foremans Daily Log which lists the serial numbers run by the day.
but  the "frames in a pile" theory would explain why I have so many balloon 3 speed  frames, and a his and hers 1953 dated midweights pair with heavy weight frames, 54 hubs,  and balloon forks and midweights stickers


----------



## GTs58

kos22us said:


> or ... i could be completely wrong about everything




LMAO

The frames of the early days like the 20's had the serial numbers stamped by hand when the frame was built. But later down the road when new production methods were introduced the serial numbers were stamped by bench mounted automatic stamping machines. At that time the numbers were stamped on the frame component prior to it being used to build a frame. A serial number is just that, and the recorded date doesn't even indicate a frame build date, just the date the serial number was recorded and possibly stamped on the dropout, headtube or even the bottom bracket. Why would Schwinn care what day a frame was built? The SN in not a VIN number with detailed build info like model, components etc.


----------



## 2jakes

*Schwinn Serial Numbers*



GTs58 said:


> LMAO
> 
> The frames of the early days like the 20's and 30's had the serial numbers stamped by hand when the frame was built. But later down the road when new production methods were introduced the serial numbers were stamped by bench mounted automatic stamping machines. At that time the numbers were stamped on the frame component prior to it being used to build a frame. A serial number is just that, and the recorded date doesn't even indicate a frame build date, just the date the serial number was recorded and possibly stamped on the dropout, headtube or even the bottom bracket. Why would Schwinn care what day a frame was built? The SN in not a VIN number with detailed build info like model, components etc.




 I have a Red Phantom with the red being of an opalescent type . 
 A friend also has a Red Phantom but the paint on his is solid red.
 Since the serial number stamped on the frame is not an indication
 of the actual build date....I can only guess that the opal reds came out 
 in the mid 50s & the solid reds in the first part of that decade.
   ( based on the frame color scheme being an opalescent Red )

  This is just speculation & may not be correct at all, but for now,
  that's as close as I can tell for what years my Schwinn was built
  until, as GTs58 stated, we can get documentation , if that is possible.
  It's been so long, we may never know for sure.

  I recall that around 1954 & up...the shiny metallic paint schemes for
  bikes was very popular. My Western Flyer X-53 for Christmas in '54 had that
  opalescent red. I actually didn't care for it at the time...but heck...I was just 
  happy to get a bike back then. Now ...years later...I love it because it reminds
  me of my youth & the good times.


----------



## kos22us

GTs58 said:


> "The serial number was used for future identification purposes"
> 
> 
> 
> 1st off great thread, very interesting topic
> 
> 
> can you go into a little more depth in regards to your above quote
> 
> for whom to use, the factory ?     if so and its just a serial number thats not related to any specific model or even frame build what can be identified by the number ?


----------



## Intense One

*Schwinn serial numbers?*

I have a '54? '55? 56? Schwinn Spitfire.  And yes, not sure when it was assembled but according to one of the serial number dating sites, it states it was built in either Nov '54 or Oct '56.  So, I figured the frame was stamped in 'Nov '54 and could have been assembled anywhere between that date to the end of Oct '56.  I believe 1956 was the last year a Spitfire came equipped with S-2/ balloon tired wheels before switching to S-7's.  They either built too many Spitfire components in '54 or their design team wasn't  into "new design" mode for a few years.


----------



## GTs58

If you have a very late 54 November serial on your Spitfire it may actually be a 1955 model. If it was a 56 serial number then the Spitfire was a Middleweight or a ballooner. 56 was the only year where there were these two choices on a Spitfire.  

I believe the Opal colors were introduced on the 1954 models but not 110% positive on that. Opal was available in 54 and I've never seen a 53 model in Opal or seen any word of Opal mentioned prior to 54. 

The serial numbers were used to identify a bike when lost or stolen and for proof of ownership. Also on Schwinn's warranty paperwork they "said"  a serial number is required. I know for sure that at least in the 60's a Schwinn dealer was required to keep records of all the bikes they sell. Name of owner, serial number and model of bike at the minimum.  

Hope this answered all the questions.


----------



## Larmo63

I always am a bit suspect when guys say they are looking for a Schwinn built

on the same day they were born.


----------



## GTs58

Larmo63 said:


> I always am a bit suspect when guys say they are looking for a Schwinn built
> 
> on the same day they were born.




Yah, and I hope this doesn't spoil their dream. Maybe they can find out what day they were conceived and then match that date with the serial number date which was the conception date of a Schwinn bike.


----------



## Intense One

*Just the facts, Ma'am*

This process of bike dating; conception dating is way too much work!!  Guess a bike owner has a 9 month leeway once you get some of the DNA facts in!!  Let's just go out and ride our bikes.  They love us just the same!


----------



## GTs58

Intense One said:


> This process of bike dating; conception dating is way too much work!!  Guess a bike owner has a 9 month leeway once you get some of the DNA facts in!!  Let's just go out and ride our bikes.  They love us just the same!




The serial number game is really lots of fun and very interesting along with being a key factor in the correct identification. So is your Spitfire a ballooner or a middleweight? And is it a Nov. 27 1954 or later number making it a 1955 model.


----------



## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

GTs58 said:


> The serial number game is really lots of fun and very interesting along with being a key factor in the correct identification. So is your Spitfire a ballooner or a middleweight? And is it a Nov. 27 1954 or later number making it a 1955 model, the last year for the Spitfire ballooner?  See how fun this can be?




Im just only concerned with year... I could care less what day it was finally put together... My two rupees... I will never know what day for certain anyways since both my bikes fall into the mysterious void of numbers.. Pre war and early post.


----------



## GTs58

fatbar said:


> Im just only concerned with year... I could care less what day it was finally put together... My two rupees... I will never know what day for certain anyways since both my bikes fall into the mysterious void of numbers.. Pre war and early post.




So you are not one of the many looking for a Birthday bike?  lol  In some cases depending on the era and bike, the serial numbers won't even give you the year a bike was built. Since you are into the pre war and early post war models it will be very difficult to determine a time frame. Is Rec the only one keeping a SN record on those bikes?


----------



## Freqman1

The facts about a Schwinn serial number--there is one! It amazes me how we cycle through running down the same rabbit holes over and over again. Now can some one tell me should I restore my Sears Free Spirit ten speed or maintain the patina finish? V/r Shawn


----------



## GTs58

Then how come so many members here on this site state a bike they are selling or have was built on the day the serial number was recorded? Maybe try running thru a gopher hole instead of a rabbit hole.


----------



## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

GTs58 said:


> So you are not one of the many looking for a Birthday bike?  lol  In some cases depending on the era and bike, the serial numbers won't even give you the year a bike was built. Since you are into the pre war and early post war models it will be very difficult to determine a time frame. Is Rec the only one keeping a SN record on those bikes?




I can say for certainty that my two bikes are very identifiable into which year they had been produced.. 41 H serial first year deluxe chainguard and new style springer arms along with the stamped crank.. and the 46 with its A serial and other very identifiable early postwar features


----------



## GTs58

Here is main topic of this thread....

*I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on what exactly a serial number on a bike actually is, mainly Schwinn’s. There is mass confusion with the big rumor of a Schwinn serial number, with it’s recorded date, being somehow the actual build date of a particular bike.*

There is a member here that had a 65 Corvette for sale and he stated the bike was built on a specific date. Who are the ones spreading that preposterous falsehood? Even long time collectors believe a serial number is the build date. I’m probably just as tired of seeing this as Fregman is from jumping in rabbit holes. 

_One year only model and coppertone goodness April 15th 1965 build date, both hubs have been cleaned and re-greased, new set of kenda 26X1 3/4 tires. Located in eastern PA 18064. $300 boxed and shipped to your door._ 

http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?44137-1965-Schwinn-Corvette-II


----------



## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> Here is main topic of this thread....
> 
> *I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on what exactly a serial number on a bike actually is, mainly Schwinn’s. There is mass confusion with the big rumor of a Schwinn serial number, with it’s recorded date, being somehow the actual build date of a particular bike.*
> 
> There is a member here that had a 65 Corvette for sale and he stated the bike was built on a specific date. Who are the ones spreading that preposterous falsehood? Even long time collectors believe a serial number is the build date. I’m probably just as tired of seeing this as Fregman is from jumping in rabbit holes.
> 
> _One year only model and coppertone goodness April 15th 1965 build date, both hubs have been cleaned and re-greased, new set of kenda 26X1 3/4 tires. Located in eastern PA 18064. $300 boxed and shipped to your door._
> 
> http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?44137-1965-Schwinn-Corvette-II





For sometime I was also of the opinion that the Schwinn Serial Number Listing was the answer
to find out when my bicycle was built. 

I believe that there are others who thought the same thing. 
I don't believe we were spreading  "preposterous falsehoods" perhaps dwelling in " dumbness"
because we thought we had found the answers as to when our bicycles were built...but
now I'm beginning to be aware that this may not be the case.

Your premise at the beginning of this thread was " I would like to hear everyone's 
 thoughts on what exactly a serial number on a bike actually is ? "

Well in my opinion...that is what you are getting...*"everyone's thoughts"*
and it's still continuing & we'll probably never end ...

Until someone can provide specific documentation that can be verified so that all who
witness can accept as being authenticated proof that this is the way it is...

All we can do  for now is speculate.

If those individuals who claim to have a specific build time frame on their bicycles...
I would ask for documentation besides just a  stamping on the frame for proof.


----------



## DonChristie

Maybe this is why we love Schwinn's, the mystery! As we all know, Schwinn was notorious for using last years parts on this years bikes (I have a 62 Fleet with a 61 stamped crank). I believe the stamped serial number was when the actual Frame was made. If you think about it, the time to stamp the serial number is when you are making the Frame. The website I visit for Schwinn serial numbers has them listed per day, or every other day. If production was at 100%, I don't think a Frame would sit around the factory for too long. I think the serial number is a close guesstimate for when the said bike was actually built. 
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/allday101/SchwinnCodes2.html


----------



## GTs58

The information that I provided in my first post should prove without a doubt that a Schwinn serial number has absolutely nothing to do with a build date. The only bikes that are exempt are the Paramounts and the other high end road bikes that don't use the standard serial number system. 

Pat's Schwinncruiser site has a very nice serial number look up system and the results come back saying, *"Built"* and then the date. So someone that has been around bikes as long as Pat still doesn't know the facts and is spreading misinformation to thousands? If it's on the internet it must be fact, right. His site isn't the only one that is misleading the masses. On the pre-76 Schwinns there is no possible way to find out what the build date was. Many believe that the serial number dates the frame build and I believe at one time it may have, and this is when the numbers were hand stamped. That may be true in the 20's and 30's but not later down the road as Schwinn's volume grew and they began to modernized their production methods.


----------



## 2jakes

schwinndoggy said:


> Maybe this is why we love Schwinn's, the mystery! As we all know, Schwinn was notorious for using last years parts on this years bikes (I have a 62 Fleet with a 61 stamped crank). I believe the stamped serial number was when the actual Frame was made. If you think about it, the time to stamp the serial number is when you are making the Frame. The website I visit for Schwinn serial numbers has them listed per day, or every other day. If production was at 100%, I don't think a Frame would sit around the factory for too long. I think the serial number is a close guesstimate for when the said bike was actually built.
> http://www.angelfire.com/rant/allday101/SchwinnCodes2.html




"Close guesstimate"....I like that !  

Until someone comes up with something else...for now...

I will go with schwinndoggy's  way of thinking.


----------



## GTs58

schwinndoggy said:


> Maybe this is why we love Schwinn's, the mystery! As we all know, Schwinn was notorious for using last years parts on this years bikes (I have a 62 Fleet with a 61 stamped crank). I believe the stamped serial number was when the actual Frame was made. If you think about it, the time to stamp the serial number is when you are making the Frame. The website I visit for Schwinn serial numbers has them listed per day, or every other day. If production was at 100%, I don't think a Frame would sit around the factory for too long. I think the serial number is a close guesstimate for when the said bike was actually built.
> http://www.angelfire.com/rant/allday101/SchwinnCodes2.html




A bike frame's component could sit around at the factory for weeks or months. 

There is positive proof that the later serial numbers were stamped on the bikes component prior to any frame building. How would you explain a serial number stamped on a dropout and on this same frame there is a different serial number stamped on the headtube? How would one explain two different serial numbers stamped on a headtube with one on the top left and upside down and then one on the bottom right? How about the first 1966 numbers that are missing the year letter. After you look at a few build dates stamped in the headbadges and then compare that date with the serial number's recorded date you'll see what kind of time span there was from the SN recorded date to the finished product. The bikes I have document had a time span of a month + and longer with some months into the next year.


----------



## island schwinn

i have a white fairlady with a september 1960 stamped serial number.the crank is dated 12/60.it has the 61 starburst badge,61 stem,and a 61 dated 3 speed hub.must be a 60 fairlady,right?
just shows frame dates are frame build dates,not the finished product date.


----------



## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

So my 41 with its one year only guard and fenders must have been made in late 34... Then about 40 the got around to putn itz together


----------



## 2jakes

fatbar said:


> So my 41 with its one year only guard and fenders must have been made in late 34... Then about 40 the got around to putn itz together


----------



## GenuineRides

Based upon common manufacturing methods of the time, and even today, we can guess that serial number closely relates to frame build date range from the older Schwinn documentation.  Out side of that, wheels and parts could be mixed in the bins (large gaylords seen in many pics) along with frames...so overlapping year specific parts with a frame of a supposedly specific year serial number is common.  Standard procedure for manufacturing is to pull older inventory first, but with the amount of product being pushed through that factory, who knows what got pulled for assembly and when, and what did they have surpluses of, or what ran out and was replenished with a new improved version???  Frame serial number gets you close, that's about it.  How close can be debated, continue reading...

Many people forget that the Schwinn factory sold oodles of frames and parts separately too.  I have an old picture of a mini twin in factory red with decals, which came from the local Schwinn shop where I live (new owner today, brother of the second owner I know well, both worked there too as kids).  I speak to the old owner and new owner often.  He remembers the month he ordered the red mini twinn frame, May 1972! He ordered a mini twin frame to build for the local festival, he thought a mini twin would be a cool parade bike.  They would ride various bikes every year.  Since they were on sale it made sense to buy it (on sale because they didn't sell in stores well at all!).  The kicker is 1972.  He knows this specifically because he didn't work there until 1972.  Schwinn didn't offer the mini twin in 1972, only '68 and '69, and they didn't make it in red either.  He said he just asked for red, they painted it and decaled it up and shipped it to him with the drivetrain, no wheels, seats, fenders , bars etc.  They were happy to get rid of another frame.  He built the rest of the bike with parts from the shelves in the store.  Correct Stingray parts, but various date codes.  Is this the rarest mini twin of all time?  

So what year bike is this mini twin???  Does it really matter...

GenuineRides


----------



## 2jakes

And all this time I was telling folks that I own a 1946 truck...






but lately , I'm not sure if that is the case.

These specific models were built from 1941 to 1946.

Does it really matter...well , perhaps not.

But I get asked all the time..."what year is it ? "

Would I come across as " obtuse " if I answered with...
Does it matter   ?    


_title indicates ownership but not the actual build date._


----------



## rustyspoke66

I really don't get the point of this thread. Just a bunch of pissing and moaning about a serial number not being a absolute drop dead date on a bicycle. If you ask me the serial number is the best way to date a bicycle if the basic information on the serial number structure is there. Seems like you guys wont be satisfied unless you can jump in a time machine, go back in time and be the judge of when a bike was actually built. I say get over it. Just my 2 cents, hope no one takes this personally.


----------



## 2jakes

rustyspoke66 said:


> I really don't get the point of this thread. Just a bunch of pissing and moaning about a serial number not being a absolute drop dead date on a bicycle. If you ask me the serial number is the best way to date a bicycle if the basic information on the serial number structure is there. Seems like you guys wont be satisfied unless you can jump in a time machine, go back in time and be the judge of when a bike was actually built. I say get over it. Just my 2 cents, hope no one takes this personally.




If all you got is a bunch of pissing & moaning then you are correct...
perhaps you are missing the point. 

There's many positive input from Cabe members.

If you find it tiresome ...there is always this on the top right side.



Just my 2¢...nothing personal !


----------



## GTs58

The point is, there are more people dumb to this subject than there are people who know or think they know. I'm confused, I didn't see anyone pissing or moaning.

There is a seller on eBay that is trying to sell his Schwinn for $1300 and he doesn't even know what year the bike is, even though he has the serial number. He claims it's a 1961 model since it has a 1961 serial number and nobody can convince him otherwise. He's the third owner and he paid around $1200 for the bike a little over a year ago. The bike is in fact a 1962 model with a 62 dated crank and the original owner told me at the time he was selling it that he was given the bike on his Birthday in August of 1962. There are still long time collectors and bike sellers out there that don't know squat about the details of a serial number. It sometimes takes a lot more to date a bike's build period then just looking up a serial number and then believing that is when the bike was built. Yall say it's close enough? Then in some cases you could be a few years off dating your bike. When unknowledgable collectors are paying up to three grand for a bike that isn't really all that rare or old they really get disturb when they find out their 69 Krate has the wrong parts on it, but it's really a 1970 model with the correct 1970 parts.


----------



## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> The point is, there are more people dumb to this subject than there are people who know or think they know. I'm confused, I didn't see anyone pissing or moaning.
> 
> There is a seller on eBay that is trying to sell his Schwinn for $1300 and he doesn't even know what year the bike is, even though he has the serial number. He claims it's a 1961 model since it has a 1961 serial number and nobody can convince him otherwise. He's the third owner and he paid around $1200 for the bike a little over a year ago. The bike is in fact a 1962 model with a 62 dated crank and the original owner told me at the time he was selling it that he was given the bike on his Birthday in August of 1962. There are still long time collectors and bike sellers out there that don't know squat about the details of a serial number. It sometimes takes a lot more to date a bike's build period then just looking up a serial number and then believing that is when the bike was built. Yall say it's close enough? Then in some cases you could be a few years off dating your bike. When unknowledgable collectors are paying up to three grand for a bike that isn't really all that rare or old they really get disturb when they find out their 69 Krate has the wrong parts on it, but it's really a 1970 model with the correct 1970 parts.




I recently acquired this Schwinn bicycle:




serial number: T-31370
(_(stamped on rear drop-out)_

In the Schwinn Serial Numbers Listing
this is the date:
Oct. 01 to Oct. 11, 1955.

 If the above is not the time the bike was built,
but just the frame only. 
What then would be the next steps to determine the time the
bike was completely assembled ? 
Thanks .


----------



## GTs58

There really is no way to tell when a Schwinn was made until the build date was stamped in the headbadges. I have a Registry for a Schwinn model that was produced for less than 18 months. All the L numbers that were recorded on the 27th were the next years models and most of the owners also verified the cranks had the next years cast date. I have a May 61 serial number on one of mine and it has a 27-62 crank. My decals did not match the other two May serial numbered bikes either. I'm still trying to figure out the build date on that 1 owner bike but I'm pretty sure that will be impossible. With the later Schwinns that I have collected info from the shortest time span from SN date to build date was just over a months time, 32 days I believe. There are to many varibles to accurately pin point build time after the SN was recorded but my guess is from a month to three months on average. Here is the data on one of my lastest projects. 

Details:

Frame Serial Number   CQ577905              March 1979
Head Badge # Build Date  1229                  May 2, 1979

Stem stamped……79
Crank #…… …… SA 6 4 79
Bars…………….. Schwinn 7836 14 79
Rear Derailleur… Positron II


----------



## 2jakes

Looks like you've done some research !

I have to agree with you that it's almost impossible to find the year
the bike was assembled.

Next best thing is when I'm asked, " What year is your bike ?"

I'll refer only to the year the frame was built or stamped. That's as
close as possible , but even then, the stamping could've been done
at a later date...

Thanks for sharing your info !


----------



## GTs58

Are there any differences between the 55 and 56 Phantoms? Chances are your Phantom was actually built sometime in November 1955 and could have been shipped to the distribution center then to a retailer and sold for a 1955 Christmas present.

I purchase a new 1964 Schwinn in the summer of 64 and at that time the dealer still had an outdated 1963 model on his showroom floor. If a model is unchanged for the new year nobody would ever know or care if they got a bike that was left over from the previous production year. In this case, that 63 model was an outdated model and I wonder if they ever sold it.


----------



## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> Are there any differences between the 55 and 56 Phantoms? Chances are your Phantom was actually built sometime in November 1955 and could have been shipped to the distribution center then to a retailer and sold for a 1955 Christmas present.
> 
> I purchase a new 1964 Schwinn in the summer of 64 and at that time the dealer still had an outdated 1963 model on his showroom floor. If a model is unchanged for the new year nobody would ever know or care if they got a bike that was left over from the previous production year. In this case, that 63 model was an outdated model and I wonder if they ever sold it.




When you say outdated 1963 model...from the  new 1964 Schwinn model.

How did you determine the differences ?
What did you look for ?

Not having a 56 Phantom to compare...the next best thing is hope that someone will 
have one & we can share comparisons . 

BTW:
I have  '52  & '53 Phantoms ( based on the frames) 
And one thing I do know is this:
When it came to the "pin-striping" (done by hand)
on the forks & around the tank...there is not much consistency
from one year to the other !


----------



## GTs58

2jakes said:


> When you say outdated 1963 model...from the  new 1964 Schwinn model.
> 
> How did you determine the differences ?
> What did you look for ?




The model I purchased was a 64 Varsity, even though the Sting Rays were the rage of the day. In four years I never ran into a Sting Ray owner that could beat my distance doing a wheelie.   The Radiant Red 63 was different in every aspect other than frame design, seat post/clamp, chain, crank and the hoops. And to cover some SA, spokes, bearings and the like are not taken into consideration.


----------



## REC

*56 Phantom*



2jakes said:


> When you say outdated 1963 model...from the  new 1964 Schwinn model.
> 
> How did you determine the differences ?
> What did you look for ?
> 
> Not having a 56 Phantom to compare...the next best thing is hope that someone will
> have one & we can share comparisons .
> 
> BTW:
> I have  '52  & '53 Phantoms ( based on the frames)
> And one thing I do know is this:
> When it came to the "pin-striping" (done by hand)
> on the forks & around the tank...there is not much consistency
> from one year to the other !




What are you looking to compare on the Phantom? (and based on this discussion, are you sure of the year?)

I have a red one with an April 56 dated frame.

REC


----------



## 2jakes

REC said:


> What are you looking to compare on the Phantom? (and based on this discussion, are you sure of the year?)
> 
> I have a red one with an April 56 dated frame.
> 
> REC



*REC...*

I believed that the serial numbers stamped on the rear of the frame
determined the year the bicycle were assembled. 

 In this thread, certain points have been brought up  with regards as to
whether the numbers refer to just the frames built on that date & perhaps
the completed bikes at another date. 

This was interesting topic for me.  

If possible it would be nice to know when my bicycle was assembled.
How important is this to me ? Well, if I never find out...I won't loose
sleep over this. I still enjoy my bike. Nevertheless...you asked me...

What am I looking to compare on the Phantom ?
The truth is , I don't know. I only have one red Phantom.
I would have to have another to check & see if there are 
similarities or not.

These are the serial numbers stamped on the rear of the frame on my 
red Phantom:
*T-31370*
 Schwinn lists this as  Oct. 01 to Oct. 11, 1955.

You've asked me "based on this discussion, are you sure of the year ? "

Well ... let me ask you this....

You say you have a red one with an April 56  dated frame...

So please tell me & everybody reading this...how you are so sure
about your date ?

Thank You....


----------



## GTs58

Here is a 1970 Tandem with two sets of serial numbers, one at the rear dropout and one on the headtube. This was during the time when Schwinn was relocating the serial numbers. 

So when was this frame built if you believe the serial number is somehow the build date of a frame? And if you don't believe the serial numbers were stamped on the bikes component prior to any frame build, why are there two different SN's in two different locations with the numbers thousands of units off? If the frame was stamped with a serial number when it was built wouldn't the two serial numbers be the same if someone wasn't thinking and forgot where to place the serial number the day he was stamping this bike's numbers?  
I still believe the old Schwinns had the serial number stamped at the time the frame was built if it has a hand stamped serial number. When Schwinn started using an automatic mechanical stamping press all the serial numbers were stamped on the bikes component prior to any frame build. This proves that small fact without a doubt.  

Dropout number.. EF32709
Headtube number.. EF015984

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5335809022&icep_item=181150920780


----------



## Blueschwinns

*Serial Numbers*

You have solved the mystery. Based on the tandom bike, Schwinn did stamp the serial number on the frame when they built it. Since they only produced a limited number of tandoms they just kept them until needed. In the mean time Schwinn decided to move the serial number up to the steer tube and so when they painted and assembled the bike they kept with the numbering they were using that day. Thus the two sets of serial numbers.




GTs58 said:


> Here is a 1970 Tandem with two sets of serial numbers, one at the rear dropout and one on the headtube. This was during the time when Schwinn was relocating the serial numbers.
> 
> So when was this frame built if you believe the serial number is somehow the build date of a frame? And if you don't believe the serial numbers were stamped on the bikes component prior to any frame build, why are there two different SN's in two different locations with the numbers thousands of units off? If the frame was stamped with a serial number when it was built wouldn't the two serial numbers be the same if someone wasn't thinking and forgot where to place the serial number the day he was stamping this bike's numbers?
> I still believe the old Schwinns had the serial number stamped at the time the frame was built if it has a hand stamped serial number. When Schwinn started using an automatic mechanical stamping press all the serial numbers were stamped on the bikes component prior to any frame build. This proves that small fact without a doubt.
> 
> Dropout number.. EF32709
> Headtube number.. EF015984
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-EF-Sch...true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_64wt_884


----------



## GTs58

Wishful thinking. If that was the case, which it surely wasn't, there would be hundreds of thousands of bikes with two sets of serial numbers. 









Blueschwinns said:


> You have solved the mystery. Based on the tandom bike, Schwinn did stamp the serial number on the frame when they built it. Since they only produced a limited number of tandoms they just kept them until needed. In the mean time Schwinn decided to move the serial number up to the steer tube and so when they painted and assembled the bike they kept with the numbering they were using that day. Thus the two sets of serial numbers.


----------



## REC

2jakes said:


> *REC...*
> 
> I believed that the serial numbers stamped on the rear of the frame
> determined the year the bicycle were assembled.
> 
> In this thread, certain points have been brought up  with regards as to
> whether the numbers refer to just the frames built on that date & perhaps
> the completed bikes at another date.
> 
> This was interesting topic for me.
> 
> If possible it would be nice to know when my bicycle was assembled.
> How important is this to me ? Well, if I never find out...I won't loose
> sleep over this. I still enjoy my bike. Nevertheless...you asked me...
> 
> What am I looking to compare on the Phantom ?
> The truth is , I don't know. I only have one red Phantom.
> I would have to have another to check & see if there are
> similarities or not.
> 
> These are the serial numbers stamped on the rear of the frame on my
> red Phantom:
> *T-31370*
> Schwinn lists this as  Oct. 01 to Oct. 11, 1955.
> 
> You've asked me "based on this discussion, are you sure of the year ? "
> 
> Well ... let me ask you this....
> 
> You say you have a red one with an April 56  dated frame...
> 
> So please tell me & everybody reading this...how you are so sure
> about your date ?
> 
> Thank You....



The "based on this discussion" comment was due to the multiple directions the comments have gone.. I still go with "I read it on the internet. It has to be true!"
Regarding my Phantom, I bought it and brought it to live with me. Once it got here we talked....
VERY tongue in cheek in the comments. 

The frame number is based on the published list. Of course, I don't have complete faith in that either as I have seen exceptions to it too. I DO think it is fairly accurate for the most part though. 

The characteristics of the bike fit well into what is shown in published advertising for the time period as well. The only real research I've spent a lot of time on is the period between the 30s and the fire in '48. The rest of the ones I have are based pretty much on the published list. I don't have a lot of post 60s stuff though, so the numbered headtubes are not something I have a lot of to base anything on, and only a couple with the stamped badges. Didn't like the newer stuff then, and have not found much of it since that interested me. 

In reality, I started keeping a database of older numbers coming up on 10 years ago, and it has grown into a good sized project. It started when I was looking for an early production Cycle-Truck. I now have two of those, and a few post war ones. (Total currently is 11)

The attached photo is my Red Phantom

REC


----------



## 2jakes

Thanks for sharing your thoughts  & information with regards to this topic.
As you already know,  there are many diversifying comments & opinions.
And I like that  because I'm always learning something new.
I commend you on your long dedication to your projects .
Plus that Red Phantom "ain't too bad either "...


----------



## younggun'85

*here we go with the serial numbers again!?!*

There is a point in time where America got turned upside down. 1963. They killed a president, they killed the dollar, they sold our souls to the communists. Anything after that is skeptical. Everything from Affirmative action to the space landing to Watergate. Prior to that things were different americans weren't driven by politics they were driven by the american dream. You did your job you did it right or you didn't do it at all. GTS58 we have seen your facts they all come from a period when gas costs too much and people started living for the dollar. I'm sure most...a lot of bikes were lost, left, and assembled at will as was everything else in america after the dollar lost its worth in weight. And then in China after the penny lost it's worth. I have read through these threads over and over and still can't see where an early '53 frame isn't a 1953 bike or where a late '53 bike isn't either a '53 or '54 model. I have yet to see someone bring a bike they know to be original with a '49 serial number and built into a 1955 model. It just didn't happen then. You might get lucky and find that a late '53 Jag or cycletruck or tandem frame was used for a '55 model, but I doubt a standard schwinn frame sat around tucked away in some forgotten corner of the factory for more than a year. For "classic" and "antique" bikes the SN is the date it was "BUILT" The day it was "assembled" was likely shortly after that. As well as three years later after it got stolen off of johny's porch and chopped into a different model and 25 years later when it was parted out and "restored" into a bare bones beach cruiser and again a month from now when I take the nice spray bombed "1952" black phantom frame I got for a good deal at the Minnesota Vintage and Antique Bicycle Club swap meet and slap a repop whizzer kit on it and drive it like I stole it off Johny's front porch in 1955! The serial number is just that a number stamped in sequence onto a bicycle frame to indicate where in the sequence it was produced. If you are looking at the serial number it is because you can't tell what year the bike is. In other words I have to look at ALL my serial numbers. If you can tell what year and model your bikes are by looking at them you should stop wasting your time talking about serial numbers or should I say you have time to waste talking about serial numbers. Those of us that do rely on serial numbers stand true to them because it reminds us when we are looking for parts/ paint/ accesories what is better suited for the "spirit" of the bike. My 1965 deluxe racer is stamped June 1965, the white wall tires I upgraded to are dated June 1965, the Stewart Warner speedo I got for it is dated June 1965. The later style pumpkin light I just put on wasn't made until 1967. It looks nice, but it doesn't represent a June 1965 bike. It's not in the "spirit" of a June 1965 bike. Now if it was just my "60's" bike then I might leave it. Same thing with my april 1965 "shorty" stingray. It was originally a junior. It could have been assembled any time from april 1965 until 1966 into a junior stingray and if it was a November 1965 frame I would have left it that way, but since it's an early 1965 I prefer it to be a deluxe stingray. Maybe even put a blue band on it someday. Now it wouldn't be in the "spirit" of a deluxe stingray if I used a shorty frame with a late 1965 date code. Now if I had a nice original 1965 deluxe "shorty" stingray I wouldn't care what the serial number was because I would know it was an early 1965 deluxe stingray. Again the same thing with my January 1969 five speed stingray being converted into a pea picker. Now if it was a 1968 five speed stingray it would stay that way because they didn't make a pea in '68. I might use a late '68 frame and an early 69 shifter/ parts to make a '69 pea picker. I mean I could make a 1968 Pea just as I could make 1968 coal krate, but I like to be able to look at old catalogues and dream about having one of those top of the line bikes and to be able to show my friends and family that don't know/ don't remember these bikes and say that's what my bikes going to look like right there. Well anyway, I put in my 27 cents I need to quit wasting anymore time and get working on some bikes. 

P.S I was the one that came up with the "conception" bike, but it must have been too "R" rated for the schwinn forums. It went "You could get a frame made on your day of conception and tell all your friends you and your bike popped out of the factory on the same day"


----------



## island schwinn

i'm guessing this is a real touchy subject.i've seen frames that were dated 2-3 years older than the components on the bike.i posted my fairlady.frame date and components were all over the board.plain and simple,the date code is not the build date.


----------



## 2jakes

island schwinn said:


> i'm guessing this is a real touchy subject.i've seen frames that were dated 2-3 years older than the components on the bike.i posted my fairlady.frame date and components were all over the board.plain and simple,the date code is not the build date.





 What was the purpose to stamp numbers on the frames ?

 Is it possible that the components were also installed at around the same
 period as the frames ? Maybe not that same day but close .

 The Phantom came out in '49 & throughout the 50s.
 Perhaps the reason for the components being all over the board
 might be because what we have today are products that were
 made over half a century ago.

 And in that time...could it not be possible that a local bike shop or owners
 could have updated the components as needed. Components that were made
 at a later date.

 In the past I have replaced components on my Phantom because some original parts
 were completely wasted. I would prefer to keep it as original as possible.
 But sometimes this is not possible.

 It just doesn't make business sense for a company to produce a product one year &
 then have a period of 2-3 years before adding the components . I would think that
 they were being built, shipped out with more bicycles being built every year.
     And if the components were all over the board, It was the local bike shops or
  individuals who were doing this for the simple fact to replace a damaged or missing
 part of the bicycle. It's still being done to this day. 

 I have a mostly original Schwinn Phantom that I ride regularly. I say "mostly" because I
 have replaced the original Schwinn tires with reproductions. Also the saddle on some.
 I now keep my originals ( as suggested by Bricycle...in a cool & dark area) 
 If years from now someone will find my Phantom & see that it has repo tires
 I wonder if they will blame Schwinn for putting repos made overseas. Which is
 now the case on most products made today.

 I'm not going to say this is what happened. This is just my opinion.
 I agree with you that it's a touchy subject. I just don't understand why it has
 to be.
 There is validity in what you say & also what others have said & 
 I respect that.


----------



## GTs58

2jakes said:


> What was the purpose to stamp numbers on the frames ?
> 
> .




Scroll down just a tad to the Certificate. That is the only reason for a serial number. Identification. 
http://schwinncruisers.com/catalogs/1948.html

That stamped number is not a VIN and it is not directly related to any build date. It is a serial number that was recorded on the date posted in the serial number list that Bryan Crawford put up on Anglefire. No where on that list does he say it is a build date, frame or otherwise. 

On a regular basis I take an aluminum nameplate and stamp a serial number and model number on it. Then I drill four holes and rivet that plate to a commercial machine. It does not say when or indicate who built the damn thing. The serial # is recorded along with all the particular information on the machine including who purchased it and when. That gives the company knowledge of how long the machine was in use when a customer calls in with a problem and for warranty purposes etc. And the fun part is, I can stamp any number on that plate that crosses my mind. And we keep a SN log as Schwinn did so that our numbers are not repeated. 

As I said earlier, at some point Schwinn started using automatic stamping machines and at that time the serial numbers were stamped on the bikes component prior to any frame building. Whether that part was used that day to build a frame is very likely, *but not all *and it wasn't a critical issue with Schwinn that that part must be used the day the SN was stamped on it. The double stamped unlike serial numbers on two different components and at two different locations on a headtube clearly confirms this.


----------



## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> Scroll down just a tad to the Certificate. That is the only reason for a serial number. Identification.
> http://schwinncruisers.com/catalogs/1948.html
> 
> Thanks...but
> I have my own original Schwinn book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This certificate by Schwinn is a guarantee that " _as long as I own it"_...
> Schwinn will make good with some exceptions to replace  parts.
> 
> When I purchased the Schwinn, I was issued the certificate . It was my
> responsibility to register & keep it in a safe place. When I needed parts
> to replace, this was my proof that I was the owner. This certificate
> number is for "proof of purchase" & has no bearing on the numbers
> that are stamped on the frame at the Chicago factory.


----------



## GTs58

To the contrary. Read the last few sentences. The number on that certificate is a bike's serial number, not a proof of purchase number, certificate number or invoice number. Was there such a thing as a proof of purchase number back in 48?  

This Certificate will not be valid until we receive the attached registration card, properly filled out and signed by the original owner or purchaser.
*I am the original purchaser or owner of the Schwinn-Built bicycle registered under the serial number shown above.* 

This is the whole point of why a bike has a serial number, for identification. The serial number thing was also mentioned in Schwinn's theft guaranty with it's locking fork. The SN is similar to a SS #, for ID so the government can follow up on what you owe them, but it's not used as a birth certificate. The Schwinn born on date was stamped on the headbadges starting in 1976 and I'm not sure why Schwinn started stamping the actual build dates on the badges.  

The facts about what a serial number really is can be found everywhere if you look. The Serial Number myths are hearsay and cannot be backed up with any valid evidence. If there is any valid proof a standard Schwinn serial number is or was meant to be more than just an identification number, I sure would like to see it. 
Another issue is the Ballooners taking on the name heavyweight. No such word in Schwinn's vocabulary, or other manufacturers of that time, just a name made up by the general public.


----------



## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> To the contrary. Read the last few sentences. The number on that certificate is a bike's serial number, not a proof of purchase number, certificate number or invoice number. Was there such a thing as a proof of purchase number back in 48?
> 
> This Certificate will not be valid until we receive the attached registration card, properly filled out and signed by the original owner or purchaser.
> 
> *I am the original purchaser or owner of the Schwinn-Built bicycle registered under the serial number shown above.*
> 
> This is the whole point of why a bike has a serial number, for identification. The serial number thing was also mentioned in Schwinn's theft guaranty with it's locking fork. The SN is similar to a SS #, for ID so the government can follow up on what you owe them, but it's not used as a birth certificate. The Schwinn born on date was stamped on the headbadges starting in 1976 and I'm not sure why Schwinn started stamping the actual build dates on the badges.
> 
> The facts about what a serial number really is can be found everywhere if you look. The Serial Number myths are hearsay and cannot be backed up with any valid evidence. If there is any valid proof a standard Schwinn serial number is or was meant to be more than just an identification number, I sure would like to see it.
> Another issue is the Ballooners taking on the name heavyweight. No such word in Schwinn's vocabulary, or other manufacturers of that time, just a name made up by the general public.





We have different interpretations...about the last few sentences that you mentioned.

Certificate states :
_"This certificate is numbered and registered by Arnold, Schwinn & Co.
Sign & keep it in a safe place. It must accompany any part returned to us
for replacement and will then be returned to the owner"._

This certificate is for proof of ownership . The number applies to the certificate only.

*"This certificate will not be valid until we receive the attached registration card,
properly filled out by the original owner or purchaser". *
*This is where the serial number was entered !
*
My vehicle certificate of title has a number on the top right corner and different numbers
below this are the  vin number -year model - make of vehicle.

I don't see a word by Schwinn on this certificate that states that the certificate number
 & the Schwinn serial number are one & the same. You assume they are the same.
That is your interpretation & I have mine.

By the way...proof of purchase has been around long before you & I were hatched !




_from Sears catalog 1941_
I have other sales catalogs from 1890s 
Satisfaction Guaranteed or your money back with proof of purchase.
Also known as "receipt".


----------



## Honestherman

If Schwinn made some different models. For example Schwinn made the Cadillac Bike. Is the serial number on a pre 1951 Cadillac bike the same as a Schwinn bike. Is it read as Date of Manufacture the same way.
Thanks


----------



## Freqman1

The serial number is irrespective of the badge e.g. Cadillac badged bikes did not get seperate serial numbers although if built as a batch such as for Chicago Supply I suppose it is possible that these could have consecutive serial numbers. V/r Shawn


----------



## Honestherman

So you are saying that even though it is badged as Cadillac it is still a Schwinn and the serial number is a Schwinn which tells us the date it was made. 
I have had other people say that Cadillac serial numbers are different than Schwinn and were re-used. 
But your statement makes more sense to me and your statement is what I have believed.
Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks


----------



## scrubbinrims

This is an awfully long thread without having any naked chicks on it or deep religious/political topics.
Chris


----------



## 2jakes

scrubbinrims said:


> This is an awfully long thread without having any naked chicks on it or deep religious/political topics.
> Chris







_ Here you go...enjoy !  _


----------



## scrubbinrims

2jakes said:


> _ Here you go...enjoy !  _




Thanks, but those chicks are a little young for me.
However, my buddy in college had a saying "if there is grass on the field, play ball!"
Chris


----------



## DonChristie

Those Chicks are obviously Vintage bike hatin Atheists who think the Bible is nothing more than paper to mess on! They are definately Yellow-Bellied!




lol


----------



## 2jakes

schwinndoggy said:


> Those Chicks are obviously Vintage bike hatin Atheists who think the Bible is nothing more than paper to mess on! They are definately Yellow-Bellied!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol


----------



## bricycle

2jakes said:


>




when was your animated smiley ball manufactured?


----------



## 2jakes

bricycle said:


> when was your animated smiley ball manufactured?




I lost the _certificate_ but under the smiley ball there is a stamped number.
I believe that would indicate the date the ball was manufactured.


----------



## GTs58

Honestherman said:


> If Schwinn made some different models. For example Schwinn made the Cadillac Bike. Is the serial number on a pre 1951 Cadillac bike the same as a Schwinn bike. Is it read as Date of Manufacture the same way.
> Thanks




The Cadillacs were a special run made by a Schwinn affiliate and the serial number date tells you what day they built the bike from *start to finish *and each number in the serial number has a specific coding telling you what color the bike was painted and exactly how it was equipped with each and every part.

Once you decode Schwinns magical serial number you will know every little detail about your bike, not just the day it was built. To do this, just send in $.50 to Schwinn along with 5 Kellogg's® Rice Krispies® box tops as proof of purchase and Schwinn will send you their cool serial number decoding ring. It's definitely a must have when figuring out their mystical serial numbers.


----------



## Freqman1

GTs58 said:


> The Cadillacs were a special run made by a Schwinn affiliate and the serial number date tells you what day they built the bike from *start to finish *and each number in the serial number has a specific coding telling you what color the bike was painted and exactly how it was equipped with each and every part.
> 
> Once you decode Schwinns magical serial number you will know every little detail about your bike, not just the day it was built. To do this, just send in $.50 to Schwinn along with 5 Kellogg's® Rice Krispies® box tops as proof of purchase and Schwinn will send you their cool serial number decoding ring. It's definitely a must have when figuring out their mystical serial numbers.




I nearly detected sarcasm in this post but there are far too many facts included! Seriously I'm not sure what all the hoopla is about. Most collectors use these as a general guide although in some cases they seem to be at least in the ball park. For Gods sake man just ride'em! V/r Shawn


----------



## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> The Cadillacs were a special run made by a Schwinn affiliate and the serial number date tells you what day they built the bike from *start to finish *and each number in the serial number has a specific coding telling you what color the bike was painted and exactly how it was equipped with each and every part.
> 
> Once you decode Schwinns magical serial number you will know every little detail about your bike, not just the day it was built. To do this, just send in $.50 to Schwinn along with 5 Kellogg's® Rice Krispies® box tops as proof of purchase and Schwinn will send you their cool serial number decoding ring. It's definitely a must have when figuring out their mystical serial numbers.









The Schwinn Chicago Plant shut down sometime ago.

Please save your 50¢ & like Shawn said..."_just ride'em " !_


----------



## Ozark Flyer

GTs58 said:


> The Cadillacs were a special run made by a Schwinn affiliate and the serial number date tells you what day they built the bike from *start to finish *and each number in the serial number has a specific coding telling you what color the bike was painted and exactly how it was equipped with each and every part.
> 
> Once you decode Schwinns magical serial number you will know every little detail about your bike, not just the day it was built. To do this, just send in $.50 to Schwinn along with 5 Kellogg's® Rice Krispies® box tops as proof of purchase and Schwinn will send you their cool serial number decoding ring. It's definitely a must have when figuring out their mystical serial numbers.




No really...I have one.   That's hilarious.


----------



## Freqman1

2jakes said:


> The Schwinn Chicago Plant shut down sometime ago.
> 
> Please save your 50¢ & like V/r Shawn said..."_just ride'em " !_




The "V/r" means "very respectfully" and is my standard ending salutation unless I've been dissed then I either don't sign or just sign "Shawn". V/r Shawn


----------



## 2jakes

Freqman1 said:


> The "V/r" means "very respectfully" and is my standard ending salutation unless I've been dissed then I either don't sign or just sign "Shawn". V/r Shawn




*Got It !*

V/r 2jakes


----------



## GTs58

Even though Schwinn shut down the Chicago plant years ago, Schwinn is still around.  Here is their address for those that don't know and those that want to send off for the SN decoding ring. FYI, the new improved ring may be made in China. 

Schwinn
 c/o Customer Service
PO Box 344
Olney, IL 62450
1-800-626-2811

If you want to contact Schwinn thru email here's the link. 
http://www.schwinnbikes.com/contacts


----------



## 2jakes

GTs58 said:


> Even though Schwinn shut down the Chicago plant years ago, Schwinn is still around.  Here is their address for those that don't know and those that want to send off for the SN decoding ring. FYI, the new improved ring may be made in China.
> 
> Schwinn
> c/o Customer Service
> PO Box 344
> Olney, IL 62450
> 1-800-626-2811
> 
> If you want to contact Schwinn thru email here's the link.
> http://www.schwinnbikes.com/contacts




       Great !

btw: Do you know if the new improved ring still comes with the Guarantee Certificate ?
       Also, are they stamped with the date of manufacture like the originals ?

       Thanks for sharing !


----------



## GTs58

I have one of the newer ones, and on it there is just MADE IN CHINA on the back. Bummed me out, but it still works flawlessly. My Certificate only had my PIN printed on it and that's to keep unauthorized users from getting the secret info.


----------



## Obi-Wan Schwinnobi

GTs58 said:


> I have one of the newer ones, and on it there is just MADE IN CHINA on the back. Bummed me out, but it still works flawlessly. My Certificate only had my PIN printed on it and that's to keep unauthorized users from getting the secret info.




We should ask mutivac........


----------



## new2olbikes

What a great read... This thread could spawn a reality show..  Seriously!  1) good solid information, 2) level headed, cogent debate, and funny , belly _laffin_ final thoughts.


----------



## GTs58

new2olbikes said:


> What a great read... This thread could spawn a reality show..  Seriously!  1) good solid information, 2) level headed, cogent debate, and funny , belly _laffin_ final thoughts.





Thank you! 

I've had this saved for a while now and I don't think I ever posted this tid bit here from zagar, also known as zagar-axe on eBay.


----------



## spoker

2jakes said:


> And all this time I was telling folks that I own a 1946 truck...
> 
> View attachment 544345
> 
> but lately , I'm not sure if that is the case.
> 
> These specific models were built from 1941 to 1946.
> 
> Does it really matter...well , perhaps not.
> 
> But I get asked all the time..."what year is it ? "
> 
> Would I come across as " obtuse " if I answered with...
> Does it matter   ?
> 
> 
> _title indicates ownership but not the actual build date._



in 45 those trucks had no chrome ww2,my brother has one


----------



## spoker

the fact is there are no facts,just opinions and guesses


----------



## GTs58

spoker said:


> the fact is there are no facts,just opinions and guesses




Only in your mind!


----------



## spoker

GTs58 said:


> Only in your mind!



and yours,self appointed expert without real facts,tired of self appointed experts


----------



## bikemonkey

I have enjoyed the relevant and mature comments of this resurrected thread.

I would suggest critical thinking in these types of threads is an important key for teasing out what are "facts" and what is "opinion". But, ultimately your reality is whatever is left in your head. Ad hominum attacks add nothing to the conversation but are just a huge turnoff.


----------



## spoker

GTs58 said:


> Only in your mind!



a very credible place


----------



## GTs58

Okay, it looks like the establishment has edited this thread, hopefully just deleting all the somewhat sarcastic posts. I couldn't find my copy of the  Schwinn Reporter I had in here that shows the making and serial number stamping of the head tube. The process of stamping a serial number on a bikes component before that part was used to build a frame started in the prewar years when the actual serial numbers were machine stamped. I recent came across another interesting detail where a supposed 1938 New World has a hand stamped 1935-36 serial number on the bottom bracket. This would indicate that Schwinn was hand stamping the serial numbers on the bikes component _*prior*_ to using that piece to build a frame. 

 Here's the Schwinn Reporter. And if you ever had a 1970 and up head tube stamped serial number where it's upside down and on the top left side, blame Jamie for inserting the head tube in the stamping machine upside down.


----------



## GTs58

Here's a prewar bike where the serial number was machine stamped on the BB before it was used to built his bike. Looks like an I serial but the BB shell has no EF seam. Not a 41 model bike?






This is a Tandem where the 2nd set of seat stays were welded on to the pre stamped drop out. Courtesy of Curtis Lindgren


----------



## Brutuskend

They still do this today. The serial numbers are stamped in the b/b shell before the frame is even welded together. So the serial number really just tells you the bottom bracket date of STAMPING.


----------

