# Could this be a 1945 Schwinn?



## Oilit (Jan 22, 2021)

This bike is posted on FBM out of Florida, and I was struck by the serial number. In the "War Time Schwinn New World Bikes" thread, @Miq and @GTs58 are dating the "I" serials to 1942, but this bike has a built-in kickstand, which I understand to be strictly a post-war feature. And if I understood @HUFFMANBILL correctly, they didn't even make balloon tire bikes from April 1942 until late in 1944, when the war time restrictions finally started to ease up. So could this bike be from 1945?




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## gkeep (Jan 22, 2021)

Looks like it will clean up beautifully and make someone a nice rider!


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## HUFFMANBILL (Jan 22, 2021)

I am no schwinn expert by any stretch of the imagination.  However, bikes produced between Jan. and approx. mid March 1942 would not have black-out components in place of chrome and would still be able to be sold with a factory installed kickstand. Therefore it is possible that the bike pictured above could have been produced and sold in early 1942.

Regards,
Bill


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## bloo (Jan 22, 2021)

Is it possible to have dropouts on a 1942 ballooner?


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## Oilit (Jan 22, 2021)

HUFFMANBILL said:


> I am no schwinn expert by any stretch of the imagination.  However, bikes produced between Jan. and approx. mid March 1942 would not have black-out components in place of chrome and would still be able to be sold with a factory installed kickstand. Therefore it is possible that the bike pictured above could have been produced and sold in early 1942.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill



Bill,
It looks like the black-out parts start showing up part way into the "I" serial bikes, would would make them 1942, but I think the built-in kickstand didn't come out until after the war, so I'm guessing this was built just as production was ramping back up after the war, but I wanted to see what some other Cabers think, because I'm no expert either!


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## GTs58 (Jan 22, 2021)

It sure would be nice to see the crank casting date on that, if there is one. I firmly believe the post war I series is pre 1946 production. Just remember, Schwinn stamped the serial numbers on the BB shells prior to being used in building the frames. I've also noted the crappy looking tube joints at the the bottom bracket on the early post war pieces. The seat post to the BB's were EF during war time but not the chain stays. The joints on early pieces other than the seat tube are usually pretty bad looking.


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## WES PINCHOT (Jan 22, 2021)

IN MY OPINION THE FRAME WAS MADE IN LATE 1944 OR EARLY 1945 BASED ON
THE 'I' SERIAL NUMBER.


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## Jeff54 (Jan 23, 2021)

Interesting where the aged 'patina' color appears to fit together as if it's still factory stock, equally aged and worn together. . Can't help from wondering if  those are Schwinn S2's or Pre/post war Lobdell flat hookbead rims? 

For posterity, the rest of owners photos:

















......


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## Cooper S. (Jan 23, 2021)

I would believe it if any of the bearing cups were black out. I have a H serial Dx that has black out headset and bottom bracket cups. I would be inclined to say this is a 1946, or someone put an older wheelset on it.


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## Oilit (Jan 25, 2021)

Cooper S. said:


> I would believe it if any of the bearing cups were black out. I have a H serial Dx that has black out headset and bottom bracket cups. I would be inclined to say this is a 1946, or someone put an older wheelset on it.



So you're saying they would still have black-out parts left to use up in 1945? Good point, I didn't think of that!


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## B607 (Jan 25, 2021)

This '41 DX that I restored had an "I" serial number and a rare 16" frame.  I sold it on here a few years ago to a guy in Indy.  The post war frame also has an "I" serial number.  I still have it and just took this pic a few minutes ago.  You can clearly see the post war welded on kickstand tube. 

The serial numbers were stamped ahead of time.  When the war hit, the numbered parts were set aside. (or they used them on war bikes)  When production started after the war (late '45 or '46?) they used up the "I" series first.  Gary in IL


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## GTs58 (Jan 25, 2021)

B607 said:


> This '41 DX that I restored had an "I" serial number and a rare 16" frame.  I sold it on here a few years ago to a guy in Indy.  The post war frame also has an "I" serial number.  I still have it and just took this pic a few minutes ago.  You can clearly see the post war welded on kickstand tube.
> 
> The serial numbers were stamped ahead of time.  When the war hit, the numbered parts were set aside. (or they used them on war bikes)  When production started after the war (late '45 or '46?) they used up the "I" series first.  Gary in IL
> 
> ...





The war time I-J-K series serials did have the electro forged BB shell but the chain stays were not EF. They were welded to the bottom bracket the same as the prewar bikes. Also the seat tube was EF to the BB on these war time pieces. The chain stays were electro-forged to the BB shells on the 1945 and up I-J-k series serial numbered shells so they were not left overs. Your example above has electo-forged stays and these don't. The shells that have electro-forged stays are made with the protruding nub where the stays butt for the welding.


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## Cooper S. (Jan 25, 2021)

Oilit said:


> So you're saying they would still have black-out parts left to use up in 1945? Good point, I didn't think of that!



I mean I’ve seen black out parts (hubs only) on a couple different 46s so it’s not out of the realm of possibility. Just think how many NOS black hubs there still are out there


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## Oilit (Jan 26, 2021)

GTs58 said:


> The war time I-J-K series serials did have the electro forged BB shell but the chain stays were not EF. They were welded to the bottom bracket the same as the prewar bikes. Also the seat tube was EF to the BB on these war time pieces. The chain stays were electro-forged to the BB shells on the 1945 and up I-J-k series serial numbered shells so they were not left overs. Your example above has electo-forged stays and these don't. The shells that have electro-forged stays are made with the protruding nub where the stays butt for the welding.
> 
> View attachment 1345575
> 
> ...



And the bottom brackets for the post-war frames had to be stamped with the nubs for the chain stays before welding. I think it would be hard to go back and extrude the nubs after the brackets were already formed and welded up, but it wouldn't be a problem if the bottom brackets were just flat pieces of steel with a serial number. Cutting the bottom bracket to length (from strip) and stamping the serial must have been the very first step. But if they still had those laying around, why cut more and stamp them with "J" and "K" serials? Maybe some were set aside for the people trying to get the electroforging process worked out? There's probably a simple explanation, but it's not real obvious.


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## GTs58 (Jan 26, 2021)

Oilit said:


> And the bottom brackets for the post-war frames had to be stamped with the nubs for the chain stays before welding. I think it would be hard to go back and extrude the nubs after the brackets were already formed and welded up, but it wouldn't be a problem if the bottom brackets were just flat pieces of steel with a serial number. Cutting the bottom bracket to length (from strip) and stamping the serial must have been the very first step. But if they still had those laying around, why cut more and stamp them with "J" and "K" serials? Maybe some were set aside for the people trying to get the electroforging process worked out? There's probably a simple explanation, but it's not real obvious.




The first 1942 I series BB shells were not EF, they were the same as the 1941 shells. Then these 1942 I series shells showed up with the EF seam. This was the first step in the evolving EF process of the bottom brackets. The later J series had the seat tube EF to the BB and this step could have possibly started with some I series shells but I've only seen the J's with that update. There were maybe four phases with the BB's before they were completely EF with all the tubing joints.  
The very last step making the later 1970 EF head tubes was the drilling for the head badge and stamping of the serial numbers. I really doubt any of the previous I series 1942 shells were saved or used later as these shells evolved to the post war version. All fresh shells and fresh stamped I serial numbers on the 1944-45 bottom bracket shells.


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## rustystone2112 (Jan 26, 2021)

My cycletruck  serial with black out hubs, fender braces, bars and stem , chainring  pedals  but has a chrome crank. ND 2speed conversation I added later


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## GTs58 (Jan 26, 2021)

rustystone2112 said:


> My cycletruck  serial with black out hubs, fender braces, bars and stem , chainring  pedals  but has a chrome crank. ND 2speed conversation I added later
> 
> View attachment 1346243
> 
> ...




So your CT has the none electro-forged shell? I don't see any seam slag. Interesting, it seems that the I32+++ numbers started off the norm for the EF shells. Here's a low number I and it definitely throws a curve ball into the equation. The owner is Kramai88


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## rustystone2112 (Jan 27, 2021)

Correct , no EF  BB


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## Oilit (Jan 27, 2021)

B607 said:


> This '41 DX that I restored had an "I" serial number and a rare 16" frame.  I sold it on here a few years ago to a guy in Indy.  The post war frame also has an "I" serial number.  I still have it and just took this pic a few minutes ago.  You can clearly see the post war welded on kickstand tube.
> 
> The serial numbers were stamped ahead of time.  When the war hit, the numbered parts were set aside. (or they used them on war bikes)  When production started after the war (late '45 or '46?) they used up the "I" series first.  Gary in IL
> 
> ...



Is your post-war frame a DX? I'm guessing it is, but it's good to make sure.


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## B607 (Jan 28, 2021)

No, it's not a DX.  It's a straight bar balloon.  Gary in IL


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## Oilit (Feb 1, 2021)

I've got a 1949 New World, and you can see the chain stays are still welded to the bottom bracket, while the straightbar frame that @B607 posted has electroforged chain stays, and with that "I" serial number it has to be earlier than the New World (as sure as you can ever be with Schwinn) . So it looks like the EF process was not only developed in stages, but some steps were introduced at different times on different types of frames. Maybe the tooling was specialized enough that it was easier to have separate production lines for each frame type.


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## GTs58 (Feb 1, 2021)

Oilit said:


> I've got a 1949 New World, and you can see the chain stays are still welded to the bottom bracket, while the straightbar frame that @B607 posted has electroforged chain stays, and with that "I" serial number it has to be earlier than the New World (as sure as you can ever be with Schwinn) . So it looks like the EF process was not only developed in stages, but some steps were introduced at different times on different types of frames. Maybe the tooling was specialized enough that it was easier to have separate production lines for each frame type.
> 
> View attachment 1349314




The early postwar lightweights did not have the chain stays EF to the BB. I came to the conclusion that the reason for that was the location and angle of the stays were different than the balloon frames so that created more tooling just to stamp out those lightweight BB shells. I forget what year the lightweight stays actually showed up being EF to the 1 piece crank shells, 50's maybe.  The three piece crank shells are a whole different story.


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## jesus (Jan 1, 2022)

Is there anyone out there documenting 1945 and 46 bikes. When I talk to some old timers they insist that 1946 was the first postwar Schwinn bikes. Also I have small letters R and X  which I believe are 1945's


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## GTs58 (Jan 1, 2022)

jesus said:


> Is there anyone out there documenting 1945 and 46 bikes. When I talk to some old timers they insist that 1946 was the first postwar Schwinn bikes. Also I have small letters R and X  which I believe are 1945's




Schwinn was producing bikes all thru the war while developing their frame building by introducing the electro-forged frame and components to their production methods and the 1945 model DX's were the first to have the chain stays EF'd to the BB shells. The government's war time production limitations were eased up late 1944 and in 1945 Schwinn produced over 98,000 bikes and most all were for retail sales. No cycle trucks were produced in 1945 or 1946. Most of the 1945 models were DX's and New Worlds. I haven't come across a 1945 B6 model as of yet. @REC has been compiling a list for the post war production but I have no idea if he has any documented as 1945 models. The 1945 model will have all the said details of an "early" 1946 built frame, but that "early" reference is actually the 1945 models IMO. Plus the 1945 kickstand tube angle is not the same as 1946 models.


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## jesus (Jan 2, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> Schwinn was producing bikes all thru the war while developing their frame building by introducing the electro-forged frame and components to their production methods and the 1945 model DX's were the first to have the chain stays EF'd to the BB shells. The government's war time production limitations were eased up late 1944 and in 1945 Schwinn produced over 98,000 bikes and most all were for retail sales. No cycle trucks were produced in 1945 or 1946. Most of the 1945 models were DX's and New Worlds. I haven't come across a 1945 B6 model as of yet. @REC has been compiling a list for the post war production but I have no idea if he has any documented as 1945 models. The 1945 model will have all the said details of an "early" 1946 built frame, but that "early" reference is actually the 1945 models IMO. Plus the 1945 kickstand tube angle is not the same as 1946 models.



Do you have any pic of the two different Kickstand angles. I was told that the two different kickstands were made for the light weight bike and one for the DX model.


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## GTs58 (Jan 2, 2022)

There's a good chance that the New Worlds and early post war lightweights used the same sprag as these DX's with the stand tube being on this angle.





The 45 degree stand tube.


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## Porkchop & Applesauce (Jan 4, 2022)

Good afternoon Caber’s!
 Here’s some photos of Jesus’s small stamp j code bike. It does have thin rear drop outs and the 30 degree kick stand with a packard badge. Cranks don’t have the dog leg and not sure what to think about them.


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## Porkchop & Applesauce (Jan 4, 2022)

Oops R code! Lol


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## GTs58 (Jan 4, 2022)

Porkchop & Applesauce said:


> Good afternoon Caber’s!
> Here’s some photos of Jesus’s small stamp j code bike. It does have thin rear drop outs and the 30 degree kick stand with a packard badge. Cranks don’t have the dog leg and not sure what to think about them.
> 
> View attachment 1541725
> ...




Thanks for the great detail shots! 
You have to use the Swanson Speed Square for the correct tube angle.   😜   That one has the sharper angle that was used later with the standard angle thru out their production. REC doesn't even mention the R series numbers in his lengthy post on the early post war numbers and I've seen a few of these R numbers, but I'm not sure if anyone has place them with a specific year. I'll see if I can locate the other R serials that were posted.


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## Porkchop & Applesauce (Jan 6, 2022)

GTs58 said:


> Thanks for the great detail shots!
> You have to use the Swanson Speed Square for the correct tube angle.   😜   That one has the sharper angle that was used later with the standard angle thru out their production. REC doesn't even mention the R series numbers in his lengthy post on the early post war numbers and I've seen a few of these R numbers, but I'm not sure if anyone has place them with a specific year. I'll see if I can locate the other R serials that were posted.
> 
> View attachment 1542069



Good morning! 
 Any luck finding other R code Schwinns? Making some progress getting it back together


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## GTs58 (Jan 6, 2022)

Porkchop & Applesauce said:


> Good morning!
> Any luck finding other R code Schwinns? Making some progress getting it back together
> 
> View attachment 1543074




I've had plenty of luck finding all the prewar bikes with the R serials. Still digging dirt looking for the post war BB stamped R pieces.


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## GTs58 (Jan 6, 2022)

Porkchop & Applesauce said:


> Good morning!
> Any luck finding other R code Schwinns? Making some progress getting it back together
> 
> View attachment 1543074




Just found one. And nobody has come up with year in the last year.









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## GTs58 (Apr 12, 2022)

B607 said:


> This '41 DX that I restored had an "I" serial number and a rare 16" frame.  I sold it on here a few years ago to a guy in Indy.  The post war frame also has an "I" serial number.  I still have it and just took this pic a few minutes ago.  You can clearly see the post war welded on kickstand tube.
> 
> The serial numbers were stamped ahead of time.  When the war hit, the numbered parts were set aside. (or they used them on war bikes)  When production started after the war (late '45 or '46?) they used up the "I" series first.  Gary in IL
> 
> ...




These I series serial numbers sure are interesting and confusing. Do you have more pictures of that primed frame?  Looks like it has the tubular rear fender bridge that was used on the first pre postwar frames verses the later U shaped bracket. Judging by the angle of the stand tube, I'll guess this is not a DX frame. Does it have the tubular rear fender bridge or the U shaped piece? More shots of the stay welds would also be appreciated.


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