# 1892 Featherstone "Count"



## locomotion (Jan 26, 2021)

Help!!! Here is one "pre" TOC bike impossible to ID (for me) ...... "COUNT"
I have had this bike for a few years now ...... was never able to find any info on it because, well, the name of it is "Count", no city, nothing else on the badge
so a search anywhere with the word "Count bicycle", comes out with millions of results
Bike is probably very early 1890's, complete, but ... what is it!?
Bike is in storage so it's difficult to get a good side picture.
here is the badge and bottom bracket.
any help?


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## KevinsBikes (Jan 26, 2021)

Pictures of the fork crown, any lugging, rear dropouts would help too.


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## Blue Streak (Jan 26, 2021)

The only Count Bicycle references I can find are from 1895 and 1896. Two references state it was made by Featherstone (Chicago) although it is not shown in their 1895 or 1896 model line ups. Other references are to companies that sold the Count and Countess. Here is everything I found:

April 26, 1895 - _The Referee_




September 19, 1895 - _The Evening Bulletin (Decatur IL)_




January 30, 1896 - _The Referee_




February 19, 1896 - _Buffalo Evening News (Buffalo NY)_




March 19, 1896 - _The Buffalo Enquirer (Buffalo NY)_




April 10, 1896 - _The Wheel_




May 24, 1896 - _The Courier Journal (Louisville KY)_




June 7, 1896 - _The Boston Globe_




July 26, 1896 - _Chicago Tribune_




August 11, 1896 - _Buffalo Evening News (Buffalo NY)_


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## locomotion (Jan 26, 2021)

sprocket/chainring is on the left side of the bike.


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> The only Count Bicycle references I can find are from 1895 and 1896. Two references state it was made by Featherstone (Chicago) although it is not shown in their 1895 or 1896 model line ups. Other references are to companies that sold the Count and Countess. Here is everything I found:
> 
> April 26, 1895 - _The Referee_
> View attachment 1346203
> ...



thank you for the information, I don't know how you do it!
I spent 2 hours last night looking on the link resources that @lgrinnings sent me, and I couldn't find anything pertinent
it was only pulling the word "count" out of sentences when doing searches
but still had a lot of fun looking at all the old, early bike literature

I have a feeling that the bike is older than 1895, probably more 1891-1894 due to the frame design and build (i could definitely be wrong)
I will try to get the bike out and take better pictures
thanks


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## Lux Low (Jan 27, 2021)

Bottom bracket looks just like my sterling scorcher.


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

Here are some more pictures.

Anyone have an idea of how this seat frame should look like as a complete seat?


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## Blue Streak (Jan 27, 2021)

What size tires is your Count designed for 30", 28" or 26"?
Interesting that it has tabs on frame for rear fender brace.

Construction details not exactly the same but similar to my 1894 Crescent.


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## pedal4416 (Jan 27, 2021)

Seat junction and headset look similar to Featherstone. The fender tabs are different from one I had in the past. Crank looks to have been repaired/replaced? I believe the featherstone had one more spoke on the chainring.


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## New Mexico Brant (Jan 27, 2021)

Looks related to the Templars, what is the badge hole spacing?


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

pedal4416 said:


> Seat junction and headset look similar to Featherstone. The fender tabs are different from one I had in the past. Crank looks to have been repaired/replaced? I believe the featherstone had one more spoke on the chainring.



No repairs anywhere.


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Looks related to the Templars, what is the badge hole spacing?



@New Mexico Brant badge holes are 2 1/2" apart


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## pedal4416 (Jan 27, 2021)

locomotion said:


> No repairs anywhere.



Sorry, it looked like there was 2 crank arm clamps like one was removed to use the sprocket.


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> What size tires is your Count designed for 30", 28" or 26"?
> Interesting that it has tabs on frame for rear fender brace.
> 
> Construction details not exactly the same but similar to my 1894 Crescent.
> View attachment 1346354



I believe they are 28 but i will double check
My wheels look very much like yours. Same old clincher type steel rims


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

pedal4416 said:


> Sorry, it looked like there was 2 crank arm clamps like one was removed to use the sprocket.
> 
> View attachment 1346406



Yes. I know what you mean @pedal4416
Poor picture on my part. The closer "crank arm" is not actually a separate piece.
It's actually part of the sprocket.
Took more pics. Hopefully they are better.


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## David Brown (Jan 27, 2021)

Max your bike has a lot of the same things my 1896 Featherstone bike has. As in the fork crown bars pedal end caps mount the same way . I have a 1895 Featherstone catalogue  reprint and your bike might be in there but not called Count. I think yours might be a   94 or 95.


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## David Brown (Jan 27, 2021)

Max send me your email again and I will send you the catalogue.


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

David Brown said:


> Max your bike has a lot of the same things my 1896 Featherstone bike has. As in the fork crown bars pedal end caps mount the same way . I have a 1895 Featherstone catalogue  reprint and your bike might be in there but not called Count. I think yours might be a   94 or 95.



Dave, can you please share pictures of your bike so I can compare?


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

similar type of sprocket on the bike in this post @Waffenrad (1893 Featherstone Road King)








						Block Chain parts or Repair | Antique Bicycles Pre-1933
					

Ive checked online and couldnt find the documents. If a 200lb man were to use his full weight on one foot to brake and the bike had a 7" crank mounted to a 10" diameter chainring it would be 280lbf on the chain. The tensile strength may very well be way more than that and intermittent...




					thecabe.com
				




@Waffenrad could you please post more pictures of your 1893 Featherstone Road King?


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

1893 Featherstone Prince Restored By Craig Allen
					

1893 Featherstone Prince Restored By Craig Allen



					thewheelmen.org
				




starting to make sense that my bike might be a Featherstone, from this post, the bike has a shield as a headbadge only listing the name as "Prince"
with names like : Duke, Duchess, Road King, Road Queen, Prince, Princess, Baron, Baroness, Royal Middy, and Flying Jib
Where does the "Count" stand in this list?


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

so here it is, the British Nobility rankings
Count or Earl is on there


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## David Brown (Jan 27, 2021)

Pictures of my 1896 featherstone Duke model  .I think your model is a bit earlier but pretty sure it is Featherstone made. The person I got this bike from had it for 25 years and he bought it from the original owners grand daughter.


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## locomotion (Jan 27, 2021)

David Brown said:


> Pictures of my 1896 featherstone Duke model  .I think your model is a bit earlier but pretty sure it is Featherstone made. The person I got this bike from had it for 25 years and he bought it from the original owners grand daughter.View attachment 1346614
> 
> View attachment 1346615



Do you have a picture of the headbadge Dave?


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## Waffenrad (Jan 27, 2021)

I am happy to post photos of my '93 Featherstone Road King, but please note that only the frame and bottom bracket are original to the bike.  Still, I'll vouch that the Featherstone double cotter setup is the same, with the crank and chainring separately attached to the BB spindle.  Don't reference my chainwheel for the correct number of spokes; I had to make that piece up.  A photo ad from the Wheel and Cycling Trade review shows six spoked chainwheels, but the Featherstone ad from Bearings further up in the thread shows five.  My bike's tread width and hubs are very wide, typical for 1893, and I was lucky to find hubs.  An interesting feature is removeable seat stays so you never have to break the chain.  It's a light and fast bike, and I've ridden many centuries on it.


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## David Brown (Jan 28, 2021)

Every thing on my bike is original to the bike except the Stutzsman wood rims and new leather on the saddle. I have the original single tube rims that are in excellent shape. I put  Fat Boy tires on it as they give a very close original look. Dunlop rims where available at that time and shown in catalogue  . Both rims are 28 spoke hole. This is also a pretty light bike 26 lbs


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## locomotion (Jan 28, 2021)

Waffenrad said:


> I am happy to post photos of my '93 Featherstone Road King, but please note that only the frame and bottom bracket are original to the bike.  Still, I'll vouch that the Featherstone double cotter setup is the same, with the crank and chainring separately attached to the BB spindle.  Don't reference my chainwheel for the correct number of spokes; I had to make that piece up.  A photo ad from the Wheel and Cycling Trade review shows six spoked chainwheels, but the Featherstone ad from Bearings further up in the thread shows five.  My bike's tread width and hubs are very wide, typical for 1893, and I was lucky to find hubs.  An interesting feature is removeable seat stays so you never have to break the chain.  It's a light and fast bike, and I've ridden many centuries on it.
> 
> View attachment 1346661
> 
> ...



my bike has a fix rear stay, it is a good option to have a removable rear stay to make the chain removal easier, my Gendron bikes have removable rear stays for that purpose, I guess
About my BB, it is more "bubbly" (I invented that term  ) meaning that it has more bumps/shapes vs a smooth pipe like BB, does it make my bike a little older than your 1893? or newer?
i was starting to learn towards 1894 for mine, but still confused
and still have to figure out when the product line included a "Count" in the Royal family! Lot's of Kings, Queens, Dukes and Princes ..... but no Counts

thanks for all your collaboration ... lets keep it going !!
Max


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## locomotion (Jan 28, 2021)

@David Brown and @Waffenrad can you please both post pictures of your front and rear hubs?
@David Brown can you please post a picture of your badge?
I know my rear hub is original, but I am certain my front hub is not, would like finding a period correct front
the hubs are indeed very wide


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## locomotion (Jan 29, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> The only Count Bicycle references I can find are from 1895 and 1896. Two references state it was made by Featherstone (Chicago) although it is not shown in their 1895 or 1896 model line ups. Other references are to companies that sold the Count and Countess. Here is everything I found:
> 
> September 19, 1895 - _The Evening Bulletin (Decatur IL)_
> View attachment 1346204




@Blue Streak 
Are you able to find more, earlier, stolen records of Featherstone bicycles?
my serial looks to be C22797 or 022797, pretty sure it's a C
might help narrow down the year of my bike

your posted that :
September 19, 1895 - _The Evening Bulletin (Decatur IL)_
a Count serial 027593 was stolen

thanks 
Max


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## locomotion (Jan 29, 2021)

from the articles in the The Referee & cycle trade journal v. 9-10 Aug. 1892-Apr. 1893,
my guess would be that my Featherstone Count would be most likely a 1892 model
I believe my bike had fenders when new and 1892 Men's models had fenders


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## Blue Streak (Jan 29, 2021)

1892 Featherstone ad from February 26, 1892 issue _The Wheel:_


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## locomotion (Jan 29, 2021)

claimed to be a ladies 1892 Featherstone pictures found on Google
same BB structure as on the Count


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## locomotion (Jan 30, 2021)

Miracle has happened. Found the dropped headbadge tiny screw from last week. 
Last week, I wanted to removed the headbadge to see if there was original paint underneath it and dropped the tiny screw on the garage floor. I could not locate the damn thing so I had given up not wanting to lose the second one. 
I am sure it has happened to most, it seems like those tiny screws will simply vanish once dropped on the floor. 
Well today I found it...it had travelled pretty damn far.
So took the badge off and black paint is well preserved.
Now I want to restore the bike.....should I? What would you do?


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## locomotion (Jan 30, 2021)

locomotion said:


> @Blue Streak
> Are you able to find more, earlier, stolen records of Featherstone bicycles?
> my serial looks to be C22797 or 022797, pretty sure it's a C
> might help narrow down the year of my bike
> ...



Turned the bike upside down for the first time and noticed that the serial is also stamped under the BB.
First location was next to the seat post on the rear top tube lug


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## Blue Streak (Jan 31, 2021)

Found one more Featherstone Count reference:

From a Boston Store ad in July 21, 1895 issue of _Chicago Tribune:_




So far all the Featherstone Count references I have found are from 1895 and 1896.

As for Featherstone serial numbers from stolen or missing references have only found:
SN 2062 Featherstone listed stolen March 30, 1893
SN 2349 Featherstone listed stolen November 17, 1893
SN 4276 Featherstone listed stolen November 24, 1893
SN 5812 Featherstone listed stolen April 7, 1893
SN 6264 Featherstone listed stolen November 17, 1893
SN 027593 Count listed stolen September 19, 1895

From March 30, 1893 issue of _The Nebraska State Journal (Lincoln NE)_




From April 7, 1893 issue of _The Bearings_




From November 17, 1893 issue of The Bearings




From November 24, 1893 issue of The Bearings




From September 19, 1895 issue of _The Evening Bulletin (Decatur IL)_






Some annual Featherstone production number references:
March 16, 1894 Featherston said they were going to make 25,000 that season (1894). Have not found a later reference to confirm actual production number.
August 8, 1895 they said they made 45,000+ for 1895 season and were preparing to make 75,000 for 1896, but in December 10, 1896 they said they produced 60,000 in 1896.

From March 16, 1894 issue of _The Bearings_




From August 8, 1895 issue of _The Referee_




From December 10, 1896 issue of _The Referee_


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## David Brown (Feb 1, 2021)

My 1896 Featherstone  Duke serial number is 45645C   If you find out it  was stolen i guess i will have to return it.


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## locomotion (Feb 1, 2021)

in this old post from The Wheelmen website, a member says that the Featherstone line-up only had a "shield" badge with the name "Prince", "Road King" ect on it that was made specifically for the 1893 World’s Fair and Columbian Exposition in Chicago. His bike was restored by the great @Craig Allen





						1893 Featherstone Prince Restored By Craig Allen
					

1893 Featherstone Prince Restored By Craig Allen



					thewheelmen.org
				



Anyone know how to reach The Wheelmen member : Ride the High Country
I would like to contact him to see pictures of his bike to compared


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## Waffenrad (Feb 10, 2021)

Sorry, I duplicated my reply.


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## Waffenrad (Feb 10, 2021)

I believe this is the bike you're asking about, before restoration.


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## locomotion (Feb 11, 2021)

Waffenrad said:


> I believe this is the bike you're asking about, before restoration.
> 
> View attachment 1355814
> 
> ...




thanks, wonder if @Craig Allen could chime in and post pictures of the restored bike


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## rustyjones (Feb 11, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Looks related to the Templars, what is the badge hole spacing?



Late 1890's similarities...


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## locomotion (Feb 11, 2021)

rustyjones said:


> Late 1890's similarities...
> 
> View attachment 1356115
> 
> ...



The bb and frame geometry is totally different.


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## Blue Streak (Feb 11, 2021)

New Mexico Brant said:


> Looks related to the Templars, what is the badge hole spacing?



I agree with Brant that your Count is related to 1893-94 +/- Templars starting with the badges which are almost identical except for name. 1895 and later references state Templars ($60.00) were made by Wm Read & Sons of Boston who also produced New Mails ($85.00) and some other less expensive lines. No direct reference to Read making the Templar prior to 1895, so not sure if Read made them for 1893-94 or someone else. The unrestored one listed below has a sticker with Chicago on it. Wm. Read & Sons made their own lines but also sold to others in the retail trade who possibly renamed them. There are several Templars online and on CABE that have a lot of similarities to the Count. One in particular has the exact same crank sprocket. Can you post photos of your frame at rear hub?

Here is link to a nice unrestored Templar: http://templar-1892.straight-seat-t...ties.the-safety-bicycle.antique-bicycles.net/

This one has similar crank sprocket as the Count: https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/early-bicycle-templar.169518/






From March 20, 1893 issue of _The Burlington Free Press (VT)_




From August 19, 1894 issue of _The Boston Globe._ The Count serial number begins with a C.




From January 4, 1895 issue of _The Referee_




From May 25, 1895 issue of _The Hardware._ Ad has Wm. Read & Sons, Templar and Featherstone Line all listed.


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## locomotion (Feb 12, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> I agree with Brant that your Count is related to 1893-94 +/- Templars starting with the badges which are almost identical except for name. 1895 and later references state Templars ($60.00) were made by Wm Read & Sons of Boston who also produced New Mails ($85.00) and some other less expensive lines. No direct reference to Read making the Templar prior to 1895, so not sure if Read made them for 1893-94 or someone else. The unrestored one listed below has a sticker with Chicago on it. Wm. Read & Sons made their own lines but also sold to others in the retail trade who possibly renamed them. There are several Templars online and on CABE that have a lot of similarities to the Count. One in particular has the exact same crank sprocket. Can you post photos of your frame at rear hub?
> 
> Here is link to a nice unrestored Templar: http://templar-1892.straight-seat-t...ties.the-safety-bicycle.antique-bicycles.net/
> 
> ...



thank you so much for this, let me know if you can pull more information on Templars, especially stolen bikes and ads for their bikes ..... kind of helps to see stolen serial number to pin-point a YOM.
thanks to @New Mexico Brant also for his first hunch
it does have a lot of similarities, you are right
@Blue Streak you can see a picture of my rear hub in post #7 on the first page
crazy that there are so many similarities between the Featherstones, the Templars, and the New Mails bicycles
I am going to drive the moderators crazy, with me asking them to please change the titles on this post as we are getting new leads every week .... so I am going to wait a bit until we can find more information.

I like the connection with the NEW Mail, 
"The Encyclopaedia of Cycle Manufacturers mentions Templar as a brand name introduced in 1894 by William Read & Son, from Boston Massachusetts (makers of the New Mail bicycles)."

Lets keep this digging going .... I am enjoying it
Max


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## New Mexico Brant (Feb 12, 2021)

locomotion said:


> @New Mexico Brant badge holes are 2 1/2" apart



The holes measure out at 2.424 inches on my on Templar; the other I own is in Hershey and not have the measurements.


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## Blue Streak (Feb 24, 2021)

Templar from 1895 New Mail catalog:


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## locomotion (Feb 24, 2021)

Blue Streak said:


> Templar from 1895 New Mail catalog:



thank you.
@Blue Streak , do you see a Count in the New Mail catalog?
if I may as you a question, is the Templar/Count bicycle a New Mail built bicycle?


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## locomotion (Feb 24, 2021)

now, last piece of the puzzle, is to figure out how the seat leather attaches to the seat frame on the bike


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