# Help with ID of Schwinn



## schwinnnewbie (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks, guys. It's my 80 year old aunt's bike and she took the photos. I'm trying to help her out and she wants to sell it. Just don't want her to get taken.


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## schwinnderella (Aug 1, 2011)

This is an early sting-ray.I am not too smart on rays but I believe this is a 64 or 65 model in the popular coppertone.Check ebay for values.Post the serial number from the left rear drop out to determine exact yar.


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## island schwinn (Aug 1, 2011)

it has a non crimped sissybar as far as i can tell.(old eyes)


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 2, 2011)

*?*



island schwinn said:


> it has a non crimped sissybar as far as i can tell.(old eyes)




And is that helpful in IDing it, what does that mean?  Thanks


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## DonChristie (Aug 2, 2011)

chain guard logo will also tell, 1964 (i think) had the inverted logo (lettering color of bike) as opposed to Lettering being White. The Solo Polo seat suggest 64 or so. Either way = big money! $400-600 maybe


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## dxmadman (Aug 2, 2011)

Thats one clean Sting Ray, It does look like a possible Super rare 63 j38 "1st year", that smooth seat gives it away,also the studded rear tire. or a  early 64, the serial numbers will tell the real story.A truly super rare collector bike, pretty much the dream of early ray collectors.The sting ray market has changed a bit over the years,value wise, Ive seen those go for as high as 3 grand years ago,but now theres more early rays out in the market now than ever.One thing to say,you do own a nice piece of cycle history and have some diehard collectors drooling.


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 2, 2011)

*Thanks*



dxmadman said:


> Thats one clean Sting Ray, It does look like a possible Super rare 63 j38 "1st year", that smooth seat gives it away,also the studded rear tire. or a  early 64, the serial numbers will tell the real story.A truly super rare collector bike, pretty much the dream of early ray collectors.The sting ray market has changed a bit over the years,value wise, Ive seen those go for as high as 3 grand years ago,but now theres more early rays out in the market now than ever.One thing to say,you do own a nice piece of cycle history and have some diehard collectors drooling.




Thanks, guys. I'm heading to my aunt's tomorrow to take better pictures, take it off the wall of her storage shed and look at the serial number.  I'll post them.  This board is a great resource for someone like me who doesn't collect.


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 4, 2011)

*serial number*

The serial number is e349xxx.  I looked it up and it appears to be 5/16/63.


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 4, 2011)

*some more pics*


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 4, 2011)

*another pic*


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 4, 2011)

*Last pic*


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 4, 2011)

*Last pic, really this time.*


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## scrubbinrims (Aug 5, 2011)

*comment*

This is what happens when folks chime in on value without being in pursuit of the bicycle in question, money still in their pockets...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-1963-Schwi...886?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbaba4366

Rather than the market determining price, some seller gets the inflated idea their bike is worth more than it is and expectations are unreal.
It's a free speech country, but please be conscious that everyone here would like to get a particular coveted bike at a reasonable price...and I have ZERO interest in this kiddie bike, just saying.

Personally, I would be out of this hobby if I had to pay exhorbitant prices for everything and there was no dream of a "diamond in the rough."

Chris


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 6, 2011)

*Hey*

thanks for your honesty. It was quite refreshing. There's nothing like reading the words of a blowhard that has no idea how many inquiries I've received or how many "experts" I've discussed this bicycle with. Furthermore, after checking ebay completed auctions, I saw nothing like this bicycle sold. Nothing. Year, condition were unmatched. Which brings me to my experience selling things on Ebay, I have none. I did see a Stingray sold for $1800.  This bicycle is very very rare, according to my research. It is a piece of history. That's not bs, that's a fact.  And not a soul is forcing you click on this thread or to point out a link to Ebay that I've already put in the other forum for buying and selling.


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## aceuh (Aug 6, 2011)

I hope your aunt doesn't get taken...


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## snickle (Aug 6, 2011)

You should have just set a reserve price and start the auction at $1, that will give you an idea of what the market is for this bike and what people are willing to pay. I find it interesting though that the guy who asked a question said his production logs pegged the bike as a converted typhoon. It does not appear to me from what I can see that it was converted. All the parts seem to have identical shades, and for someone to strip 2 of those bikes to make 1 is ridiculous. It would be hard (but not impossible) to find those stingray parts "in that color" to put on that clean alleged typhoon frame. What kind of tire is on the back?

Nice bike by the way, but for 5 grand, I would buy a 1987 Monte Carlo with hydraulics - er, I mean... a whizzer.


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## PCHiggin (Aug 6, 2011)

snickle said:


> You should have just set a reserve price and start the auction at $1, that will give you an idea of what the market is for this bike and what people are willing to pay. I find it interesting though that the guy who asked a question said his production logs pegged the bike as a converted typhoon. It does not appear to me from what I can see that it was converted. All the parts seem to have identical shades, and for someone to strip 2 of those bikes to make 1 is ridiculous. It would be hard (but not impossible) to find those stingray parts "in that color" to put on that clean alleged typhoon frame. What kind of tire is on the back?
> 
> Nice bike by the way, but for 5 grand, I would buy a 1987 Monte Carlo with hydraulics - er, I mean... a whizzer.




The Typhoon didn't come in Radiant Coppertone for '63. The paint on this bike appears to be original.

Pat


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## snickle (Aug 6, 2011)

PCHiggin said:


> The Typhoon didn't come in Radiant Coppertone in '63. The paint on this bike appears to be original.
> 
> Pat




But did you see the question the guy asked at the bottom of the auction. He says that schwinn produced 5200 coppertone heavy duty typhoon's in May of 63. I'm not contradicting you as I don't know much about stingrays or schwinn production statistics, I'm just saying what he said.


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## PCHiggin (Aug 6, 2011)

snickle said:


> But did you see the question the guy asked at the bottom of the auction. He says that schwinn produced 5200 coppertone heavy duty typhoon's in May of 63. I'm not contradicting you as I don't know much about stingrays or schwinn production statistics, I'm just saying what he said.





I'd like to see his info. I've never seen any such production numbers or a Coppertone '63 typhoon. I doubt anybody has,he sounds like just another spoiler. Let's see what the auction brings,that's the best way to gauge the market.

pat


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## scrubbinrims (Aug 6, 2011)

*Don't book your tropical cruise yet...*

I am glad you found my honesty refreshing...you know what's not refreshing?
Folks finding a old bicycle, discovering the CABE, and exploiting the knowledge from members on this forum to get the last dollar.

I bought a Elgin Blackhawk from a new member here a few weeks ago among numerous other offers to buy it.  He chose mine being the most sincere, and actually took less from me than other offers.  Ahhh, that's a refreshing "piece of history!"

The point of my post was not to say "look everyone what this guy is doing," but to make a statement to the fraternity of bicycle collectors here that noting value is counterproductive unless a deal is being made as it puts interested potential buyers in a real disadvantage if not, swelling a head as yours.

I was not saying "let's take your aunt to the cleaners," I was saying (and this point is pretty clear), let the market determine value...no taking your aunt in that.
What isn't cool is thinking your bicycle is over 3 times your reference find on ebay.
In fact, each sale on ebay has an entirely different set of circumstances and it always come down to what someone will pay, period.
If you think rareity is the only thing determining price, then I can trade you my left shoe for your bike.  I guarantee you there is not another left shoe like the one I am wearing, and yes, it carries its own unique story (pics on request).

If your bike sells for 5K I will apologize to you and your panel of experts.
Short of that, your selling strategy is what I resent in the hobby and if I change the course of someone offering uninterested value in a bicycle here, then I would consider that a success regardless of where you bicycle lands.

Chris the blowhard


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## Talewinds (Aug 6, 2011)

^ You hit the nail on the head right there Blowhard.


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 6, 2011)

*more pics*

I've uploaded more pics on my photobucket. 

Tires are Goodyears and the plate on the seat says 'Persons'. 

http://s758.photobucket.com/albums/xx221/dmart777/#!cpZZ2QQtppZZ16


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## OldRider (Aug 6, 2011)

Excellent post, Chris! Even if you are a blowhard you're doing the right thing in this little hobby of ours


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 6, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> I am glad you found my honesty refreshing...you know what's not refreshing?
> Folks finding a old bicycle, discovering the CABE, and exploiting the knowledge from members on this forum to get the last dollar.
> 
> I bought a Elgin Blackhawk from a new member here a few weeks ago among numerous other offers to buy it.  He chose mine being the most sincere, and actually took less from me than other offers.  Ahhh, that's a refreshing "piece of history!"
> ...




If someone feels exploited, then I apologize. 

It's a great bike, and not your average bike.

It is absolutely my aunt's bike. I wouldn't be handling it if she weren't 80 years old, a widow, and not internet savvy.  Some could argue mishandling it, and I have no problem admitting that. 

I'm basing my price on what people have told me. I didn't know this bike existed until a week or so ago. 

Once again, if anyone feels exploited, I apologize.


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## RMS37 (Aug 6, 2011)

Several times a year there are posts and follow-up that go the route of this one. This is my second post on this specific thread but I bit my tongue and filed the first in my “personal thoughts file”.

Over the years and often on this site I have had both newbie’s and seasoned collectors come to me with questions about what I consider to be the market range for a particular bicycle. Some times it is in regard to setting a sale price while other times it involves paying an asking price or making an offer for a bicycle. I avoid stepping in the middle of sales where I am not a direct party to the transaction but when I am asked privately or publicly (as in the case of an open request for market value in a thread) and I feel that I have valid information (neither being the case in this transaction), I have shared it without regard to the person being in or out of the hobby.

I resent the idea that I would have any desire to be part of a fraternity of collectors that withhold information that has been asked for. I strongly dislike the sense of entitlement some collectors express which seems to suggest they deserve cloaking so they can buy things below fair market. My goal is to make this hobby one I am proud of and to be the person I would like to stumble into if I were new to the hobby.

I also don’t see fault with any one who begins with a high price for an item. Why is it wrong to want top dollar for an item? I imagine most people on this site want to realize the going rate (or better, we’re all above average workers) when negotiating their salaries. As a seller, especially in a market where you have little knowledge, it strikes me as the wisest approach to start high and work your way down to a sale. Some “buyers” will be alienated but they are probably not the most serious buyers to begin with.

In the case of this specific bike, we were fortunate it was shown here for anyone who is interested to chase privately and it is now on eBay where a buyer can bid to own it if they want it. If the starting bid is too high then the seller has the advantage of gaining that knowledge in a week’s time and then can relist it or negotiate a sale with an interested party. I agree that the starting number feels high but at least a number is out there without a reserve so that should satisfy those who complain about sellers who won’t state a definite sale price. And, as Scrubbinrims noted, sometimes in the long run a seller will go with an offer below top dollar to a favored suitor over a higher offer from an. So all is well.


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 6, 2011)

*I had an oops in the q and a and had to relist*

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260831413497


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 7, 2011)

*Thanks.*



RMS37 said:


> Several times a year there are posts and follow-up that go the route of this one. This is my second post on this specific thread but I bit my tongue and filed the first in my “personal thoughts file”.
> 
> Over the years and often on this site I have had both newbie’s and seasoned collectors come to me with questions about what I consider to be the market range for a particular bicycle. Some times it is in regard to setting a sale price while other times it involves paying an asking price or making an offer for a bicycle. I avoid stepping in the middle of sales where I am not a direct party to the transaction but when I am asked privately or publicly (as in the case of an open request for market value in a thread) and I feel that I have valid information (neither being the case in this transaction), I have shared it without regard to the person being in or out of the hobby.
> 
> ...




Thanks. I've had many offers.


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## scrubbinrims (Aug 7, 2011)

*no title*

This is a real turning point for me....charging to lock horns with someone I respect and admire and risk alienating myself from the herd or suppressing what I believe in is best for the herd.
This is the last I will say on this thread as my position will be well enough stated.

I am not one concerned with getting the last words, but mine have either been misinterpreted or spun off into a separate point, either of which reflects on my character unfairly.

As to "entitlement," speaking for myself, I do not feel entitled to anything in the hobby and if the reference towards me, it is simply incorrect.
I have earned a nice collection from networking and keeping a watchful eye, never have my acquistions been deceitful or opaque.

I do not know what "fraternity" conjures up for some...maybe exclusion or secret handshakes, but for me, it is a more literal definition of brotherhood...a collection of individuals with similar interests and beliefs, held together by trust in each other.
I absolutely did not convey or imply that collectors should put a cloak over value... just to avoid embellishment or high end references and let value take it course in discussion with buyer and seller.
From my perspective, it is both appropriate and courteous to reply to such inquiry with "what a buyer is willing to pay" or "what the market on ebay will bring"
and if it is a bicycle of particular interest, approach the seller with an fair offer.

The fact of the matter is that bicycle collecting is like real world economics, dependent on obtaining (or producing) widgets at a cost below full retail value to publicly circulate.
The more folks outside of the hobby discover what we covet and charge full retail (or more in this case) the more this cripples dealers in contributing to the hobby, increases the frequency of "parting out" to survive, and ultimately raises the baseline values for us all and chokes many out of a wonderful pursuit...besides reducing the likelihood of a collector's finding garage gems at a reasonable price.

So yes, I discriminate my comments on value between those in and out of the hobby considering these effects in addition to potentially ruining a legimate deal from a fellow collector.
Whether a newbie to the CABE is truly interested in the hobby or interested in the greatest profit (and will not be heard from again) determines how I communicate with them and that is logical.
I can respect that sellers want the most for their bicycle and I can also respect that not everyone will be bitten by the collecting bug and keep a classic bicycle they come across....but I respect a seller that allows buyers (those who know) determine value and a seller with realistic expectations (those who don't know).
Besides, there is a differerence between being on the high side within a range and being egregiously outside of it.
Pricing a bicycle well above the norm does nothing in determine value, it simply determines what it is not like numbers above it.

I am proud of this hobby, but if it is a hobby that we cannot afford, then it is a hobby no more.

Chris


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## rideahiggins (Aug 7, 2011)

I'll bet he appreciates all the publicity this thread has given him, 465 views so far. And people get to see a rare Sting Ray, not the common ones we see at every bike show. I don't blame him one bit for starting his price high, who said that an item on Feebay has to sell the first time it's listed. He's smart start high, generate some interest and you can always come down if price you can't always go up. If the bikes out of your price range let someone else buy it. I know I can't buy every bike I'd like to have.


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## dxmadman (Aug 7, 2011)

Im suprised of the responce of this thread, I hope i wasnt the one that opened my mouth at the start of this thread and got the ball rolling "oops". I can say good luck on the Sell, As far as everyones responce i read some good points,as prices do go up it does kill out hobbies,and makes it harder for the some good hearted collectors whos passion is in the bike instead of the dollar sign.For some it does put food on the table and shoes on the kidds.But it is the response of the buyer " if they got the money? " oh well. Ive met the guys who love the hobby with out gain,The ones who end up having 20 phantoms,and 30 krates, and rays and trade them like baseball cards, with out regards to what go on ebay or even the CABE,Then the ones that allmost fell over dead when they saw a krate go for $10,000.My point is the bike world is one big fish tank full of variety and color.As far as 63 rays 40,000 was produced, Bikes is like an ant bed you get one out, the rest will pop out by the hundreds. by the way i wonder how hard it is to find the pearsons reflector,correct a&s bolts,the right tires,may be $5,000?


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## snickle (Aug 7, 2011)

I would have taken the 2 grand someone offered you...



			
				blowhards said:
			
		

> Q:  	Id be willing to go $1500 cash if your interested ,its definitely not a $5000 bike maybe if it was in the box ,still cool old bike though ,I live in Virginia and could pick up so you dont have to deal with shipping wich is a big hassle and Ive got cash so no paypal fees my phone number is xxx-xxx-xxxx Tom 	Aug-06-11
> A:  	I've been offered $2000.00. I'm going to let the auction play itself out. Thanks for your interest. It's a unique bicycle and a piece of history that any collector would want to own. Thanks again.
> Q:  	for $5000 your going to have to provide way better pictures than that and the serial number production line logs I purchased from the schwinn auction in the year 2000, peg this bike as a boys 20" copper tone heavy duty typhoon. all of the parts could be added easily. And no I did not get my serial number info in the black and white book Pete sells or on ebay. I have actual production line logs for over 45 years of production. in May of 63 schwinn produced 5200 copper tone heavy duty 20" typhoons and they are not listed in the black and white schwinn book pete sells or the black and white book on ebay because they do not have the page for mid year, just beginning year 63. does it have a schwinn stingray rear knobby or a goodyear studded tread tire? 	Aug-05-11
> A:  	I hope I answered your question via e-mail. The serial number decoder site is now listed as well as my photobucket account. Have a great day.
> Ask seller a question


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## snickle (Aug 7, 2011)

dxmadman said:


> Im suprised of the responce of this thread, I hope i wasnt the one that opened my mouth at the start of this thread and got the ball rolling "oops". I can say good luck on the Sell, As far as everyones responce i read some good points,as prices do go up it does kill out hobbies,and makes it harder for the some good hearted collectors whos passion is in the bike instead of the dollar sign.For some it does put food on the table and shoes on the kidds.But it is the response of the buyer " if they got the money? " oh well. Ive met the guys who love the hobby with out gain,The ones who end up having 20 phantoms,and 30 krates, and rays and trade them like baseball cards, with out regards to what go on ebay or even the CABE,Then the ones that allmost fell over dead when they saw a krate go for $10,000.My point is the bike world is one big fish tank full of variety and color.As far as 63 rays 40,000 was produced, Bikes is like an ant bed you get one out, the rest will pop out by the hundreds. by the way i wonder how hard it is to find the pearsons reflector,correct a&s bolts,the right tires,may be $5,000?




Thats a nice post which I can thankfully relate to. I met a guy named Brian on this site who sold me hornet parts for a very reasonable price and didnt think twice about it although he knew what the (ebay) value was. His nonchalant attitude in making fair deals allowed me to put parts on my bike I could not otherwise afford all at once. Something he had laying in the basement is now cruising the boulevard again and shining brighter than ever. Had the prices been of the ebay sort.. those parts may well be sitting in milk crates still instead of being enjoyed by someone who really takes pride in them and brags about the "killer deal" this guy from thecabe gave him. When I die, I hope someone enjoys my bikes as much as me, instead of grabbing them for half of what I paid, only to throw them on ebay to make a buck and break the guy's heart who would cherish it, but can't afford it.


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## fordsnake (Aug 7, 2011)

I just caught wind of this thread...normally I have no interest in muscle bikes, but as I thumbed through this posting I saw a rather heated discussion developing and was curious to its outcome. Apparently *schwinnnewbie* sold the bike? I'm sure he received a nice price? However, I wouldn't pay a dime for a muscle bike, and then on the flip side, a rat rod biker would pay a nickel for a fully deluxe prewar beauty! Price is relevant, and I think we all can agree that it really boils down to personal preference. But I will say that this thread opened my eyes to the amazing interest in Sting Rays...its popularity and it's interesting history! Especially an alleged $100,000 offer for a mint condition Sting Ray which serial number post dates *schwinnnewbie's * bike by one month! http://genesbmx.createforumhosting.com/re-100-000-for-schwinn-sting-ray-t5068.html 
If *schwinnnewbie* is correct with his serial number then he indeed has the earliest known Sting Ray in existence! If you read the bottom half of the article you'll noticed a challenge from doubters that Schwinn never produced 1963 Sting Ray's. From my readings and discoveries I'm assuming the 60's was popular and trending for kids customizing their bikes. Hence the competition between Huffy and Schwinn to launch the first Muscle Bike in 1963. For Schwinn there wasn't any time to market the bike under the traditional folds of the Schwinn advertising arm. Production was their priority and the bike was pre-sold to doubtful vendors by the sales force...therefore the Sting Ray was not listed in any of Schwinn's 63 catalogues, until the following year! Read this interesting article http://bikerodnkustom5.homestead.com/brainhistory63_muscle2.html


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## dxmadman (Aug 7, 2011)

snickle said:


> Thats a nice post which I can thankfully relate to. I met a guy named Brian on this site who sold me hornet parts for a very reasonable price and didnt think twice about it although he knew what the (ebay) value was. His nonchalant attitude in making fair deals allowed me to put parts on my bike I could not otherwise afford all at once. Something he had laying in the basement is now cruising the boulevard again and shining brighter than ever. Had the prices been of the ebay sort.. those parts may well be sitting in milk crates still instead of being enjoyed by someone who really takes pride in them and brags about the "killer deal" this guy from thecabe gave him. When I die, I hope someone enjoys my bikes as much as me, instead of grabbing them for half of what I paid, only to throw them on ebay to make a buck and break the guy's heart who would cherish it, but can't afford it.



Ever since ive been building bikes, i have met the best and worst of collectors/restorers/hobbiest/professional and amature.Great deals are still out there,and good people are even more abundant.I dont let the worst get to me and  just enjoy the ride! And  glad to hear the CABE is full of good people. I also think he should have taken the $2000, my dads 63 only got $1500 it was almost box perfect and ive seen too many early rays in the $ 300 - $ 1,000 range theres even more 63's on ebay already! Like what i said in my early post the markets changes.also when one shows up they all show up.


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## dxmadman (Aug 7, 2011)

fordsnake said:


> I just caught wind of this thread...normally I have no interest in muscle bikes, but as I thumbed through this posting I saw a rather heated discussion developing and was curious to its outcome. Apparently *schwinnnewbie* sold the bike? I'm sure he received a nice price? However, I wouldn't pay a dime for a muscle bike, and then on the flip side, a rat rod biker would pay a nickel for a fully deluxe prewar beauty! Price is relevant, and I think we all can agree that it really boils down to personal preference. But I will say that this thread opened my eyes to the amazing interest in Sting Rays...its popularity and it's interesting history! Especially an alleged $100,000 offer for a mint condition Sting Ray which serial number post dates *schwinnnewbie's * bike by one month! http://genesbmx.createforumhosting.com/re-100-000-for-schwinn-sting-ray-t5068.html
> If *schwinnnewbie* is correct with his serial number then he indeed has the earliest known Sting Ray in existence! If you read the bottom half of the article you'll noticed a challenge from doubters that Schwinn never produced 1963 Sting Ray's. From my readings and discoveries I'm assuming the 60's was popular and trending for kids customizing their bikes. Hence the competition between Huffy and Schwinn to launch the first Muscle Bike in 1963. For Schwinn there wasn't any time to market the bike under the traditional folds of the Schwinn advertising arm. Production was their priority and the bike was pre-sold to doubtful vendors by the sales force...therefore the Sting Ray was not listed in any of Schwinn's 63 catalogues, until the following year! Read this interesting article http://bikerodnkustom5.homestead.com/brainhistory63_muscle2.html



 Wow! I was suprised it it sold fast, your post went up before my last,I just talked to my friend in california, A Early ray collector he saw my post here on CABE, and cussed me for my comment on the pearson seat  reflector,HE talked to people that actually worked for wilson.He told me the earliest rays did not have reflectors,sorta like early krates had no front fenders,And schwinn did put on what tires they could get a hold of at the time to fill the first orders,Well we learn daily"sorry",I wonder where this bike was originally sold?Congrats to the seller and buyer.


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## snickle (Aug 7, 2011)

It hasnt sold yet, refer to post 26


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 7, 2011)

rideahiggins said:


> I'll bet he appreciates all the publicity this thread has given him, 465 views so far. And people get to see a rare Sting Ray, not the common ones we see at every bike show. I don't blame him one bit for starting his price high, who said that an item on Feebay has to sell the first time it's listed. He's smart start high, generate some interest and you can always come down if price you can't always go up. If the bikes out of your price range let someone else buy it. I know I can't buy every bike I'd like to have.





Thank you. The bike is special and I'm confident other people feel the same way and will be bidding as the auction comes to a close next Saturday night. I've had offers much higher than the $2,000 I turned down. All I had to do was close the auction or change it to 'buy it now.'  I've decided to let the auction play itself out. 



> If schwinnnewbie is correct with his serial number then he indeed has the earliest known Sting Ray in existence!


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 8, 2011)

*Hobbies*

One upon a time I collected baseball cards, so I understand the hobby aspect of it for all of you.  That being said, it was never personal for me when I saw Player A's rookie card at a card shop for x amount of dollars. I certainly didn't think poorly of the owner.


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## scrubbinrims (Aug 8, 2011)

*jumpin back in*

Schwinnewbie,

My response to this thread was not directed at you, but our bicycling community.
I was trying to raise a consciousness in responding to people outside of the hobby looking for value and not attacking you... in fact, it is you who starting the name calling with "blowhard."
A lot of times folks strike a deal within these walls, other times the information is used to set a price or reserve, and on extreme cases, prices are set extremely.
The later of which strikes a nerve with me, no question about it, but I am not taking it any further and my opinions have no affect on the sale of your bicycle in play...I have no power here, just a voice like any other.

You have a nice bicycle and in the end it will make your aunt jump up and dance and hopefully do the same for its new owner.

My apologies to dxmadman as your response on this thread was also accompanied by a very strong offer and I wasn't trying to single you out either, again, just weighing in to keep this hobby affordable, not with secrecy, but with (as my company calls it) "careful communication."

Chris


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 8, 2011)

*scrubbinrims*



scrubbinrims said:


> Schwinnewbie,
> 
> My response to this thread was not directed at you, but our bicycling community.
> I was trying to raise a consciousness in responding to people outside of the hobby looking for value and not attacking you... in fact, it is you who starting the name calling with "blowhard."
> ...




I apologize for calling you a blowhard. I was feeling a little bit attacked. While I've received a lot of offers, I've also received a few snarky e-mails.  Also, I feel like some people think I've made this back story up. Whoever is in the area is more than welcome to come to Charlottesville, Va, and meet my aunt. I'm sure she'd enjoy showing you the bike in exchange for a lunch.   I told her I was going to take a picture of her on it but I'm sure someone would claim I rented an old woman to sit on the bike and pose. 

Overall, it has been a neat experience.


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## Rexbiker (Aug 8, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> Schwinnewbie,
> 
> My response to this thread was not directed at you, but our bicycling community.
> I was trying to raise a consciousness in responding to people outside of the hobby looking for value and not attacking you... in fact, it is you who starting the name calling with "blowhard."
> ...




Well, I think Schwinnewbie's response was very gracious.  I just read this thread in its entirety and how it appears is that you, Chris, expect others in the hobby to collude with you in deceiving uninformed sellers about the real value of their bikes so that someone "in the brotherhood" can get them for less than their actual value.  I, for one, could not conceive of withholding information from someone asking for an honest answer, it would be against my personal code of ethics.  So sorry if my inability to lie to someone asking for help keeps you from gouging them...


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## scrubbinrims (Aug 8, 2011)

*Welcome to the Cabe rexbiker...*

Coming in with a bullet I see!

Where are these words like "collude, deceiving, gouging" coming from?
How are these things accomplished by deferring to those who want to privately buy the item (an actual gauge of value in an offer) or to ebay where potential buyers can bid appropriately?
Swing and a miss...

So it's okay if seller x puts out a craiglist ad for $1, goes to a couple of bicycle forums, entertains offers and communications from interested parties, then spurns them all and puts the item on ebay for a staggering amount?
I stick my neck out for probably what a majority of folks are thinking and I am now the villain?

So let me ask you in your code of ethics if instead seller x hypothetically listed this stingray on craigslist for $200 and you want it...I mean sooo badly that you see yourself riding it, tanktop and all... does your altruistic nature instead raise the asking price $4800 because that what it is really worth?
I mean, taking that bike for a couple bills would be "dishonest" and 'gouging" knowing true value correct?
What if someone's relative x selling you the bike asked you during the transaction what it's really worth before you load it up in your pickup...does it make a difference then?

That's you homework assignment rexbiker and don't look over anyone's shoulder for the answer.

Chris


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 8, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> Coming in with a bullet I see!
> 
> Where are these words like "collude, deceiving, gouging" coming from?
> How are these things accomplished by deferring to those who want to privately buy the item (an actual gauge of value in an offer) or to ebay where potential buyers can bid appropriately?
> ...




I actually put it on Craigslist and listed the price as $1.  What a coincidence your hypothetical would say that exact thing. I did this not because I was going to sell it for $1, but to gauge the interest and to see what people would offer. You see, when your charged with selling something for a close family member, who just so happens to have had some really bad luck the past few years, you don't want to screw it up.  I know how much this means to her right now.  

It has been especially difficult to determine the value of the bike through past Ebay auctions.  Unfortunately, none of those auctions represented what this bike is, a once in a lifetime opportunity for a bicycle collector.  I think my starting bid is right on the money. 

I came across an article from Hampton Roads, Va, about a Stingray with a production date one day different than my aunt's at May 17. The article mentioned it being the oldest known in existence.  So once I received the serial number from my aunt, the ballgame changed. The owner mentioned offers of 2k and 5k.  I can say with confidence, from my experience, he most likely received those offers. This selling experience has been a process for me, a learning experience too.  

Lastly, I would hope the people on this forum would be happy that this bike didn't meet a bad end. Most likely it will go to someone that will appreciate it.  Show it off.  Care for it, and pass it on to someone with the same passion Stingrays. 

Best regards

David


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 8, 2011)

*One more thing.*

When I posted those pics here, I didn't have the serial number.  I didn't know anything other than it was probably a '64 or '63  by comparing it to other pictures.  In fact, when I first put it on Craigslist, I listed it as a '64 because I didn't think my aunt was remembering correctly. I was obviously wrong. 

And, please stop acting like I've somehow victimized people. I've never accepted an offer and then reneged.  


David


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## snickle (Aug 8, 2011)

After reading this thread, I need a shower. :o


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## scrubbinrims (Aug 8, 2011)

*follow up*

David,

Please stop putting words in my mouth.
"Exploitation" means the use or utilization for profit and "victimized" means to subject to deception or fraud...please scroll up and get it correct.

Here's the bottomline.

Actions speak louder than words and you could have listed your bicycle the way most folks do and it would have ended up at market value.
My opinion is that you are dangling the carrot to high and denying a collector to ability to attain it within a reasonable price, at least in round one.
Either I have it wrong and owe you an apology or...

It is clear to me that you are employing the sympathy card, which in the end, will have no bearing on final value.  In other words, potential buyers will not give you more dough because of your proxy (which I don't doubt you are selling for your aunt as that truly would be a mean thing to say).

Okay storytime...
I purchased my 5-bar 39 hawthorne zep for 450.00, to the dollar of the seller's asking price.
The tank alone could fetch 4 times that on a good day.
The seller actually asked me what is was really worth, because if you have ever seen one, it just looks money.
He then backed out of the question himself and said maybe he shouldn't know, for which I replied, "more than what I paid you, but I have never been so happy in finding a bicycle and that I would take care of it indefinitely." (paraphrasing)
He smiled, then I smiled, and I drove away.

I only want folks that find our precious bikes to be fair in asking price.
I dream about finding rare bicycles daily, and in those dreams it never involves handing over that kind of money in a one sided affair, it should be a deal that has both parties smiling.

Chris


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## snickle (Aug 8, 2011)

The guy's poor Aunt must be ashamed of all of you! It's obvious this bike is not for the average collector, this bike is just waiting to be bought up by an oil tycoon, or that Japanese guy who wants American history. He ruffled our feathers, pretended he didnt know the value, just to get a stir out of this site. He got the switchboards lit up, has channel 7 calling, and now he's done with us as he knows no one here will buy the bike. I give him credit for coming back and posting though, he got what he wanted.. I think it's been well over 15 minutes for him though.

Please don't let his Aunt come in here and see all of you throwing rocks!









That being said, Im just trying to make a little light of the situation. Thats a beautiful bike and I hope whoever ends up with is treats it well. I don't even think it should ever be ridden, except once by the new owner. Good luck!


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 8, 2011)

scrubbinrims said:


> David,
> 
> Please stop putting words in my mouth.
> "Exploitation" means the use or utilization for profit and "victimized" means to subject to deception or fraud...please scroll up and get it correct.
> ...




I'm not sure which is worse, the way you talk down to people, your hypocrisy or your cynicism. 

No, you dream of finding a sucker so you can run to this forum and tell some BS story that makes you look like some white knight riding in on your Schwinn carrying virtue and hope. It's so over the top I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you. Either way, I'm done with you. 

David


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## Talewinds (Aug 8, 2011)




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## scrubbinrims (Aug 8, 2011)

*close the thread please*

Close this thread please Mr.Moderator.
The bike is identified and I don't believe anything further is to come that is productive, just the reverse.
Chris


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## unknown52 (Aug 9, 2011)

*Come on*

love these posts, but enough name calling.  nice bike if i had the money to negotiate i would.  thanks for the pics and the history.


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 15, 2011)

*Hey guys*

just wanted to thank you guys again for all the help initially, and to mention that I will probably put it back up on Ebay with a reserve and starting the bidding at $1. 

That being said, there has been some talk about your hobby and the people that enjoy it.  Let me tell you what I've experienced. A few people with multiple accounts spamming me saying this bike is a Typhoon in an attempt to get this bicycle for nothing.  They'd be more believable if they knew how to spell and use proper English.  

You can e-mail me at davidmartin316@gmail.com if you have any questions about he bike or any advice. 

Thanks 

David


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## snickle (Aug 15, 2011)

Just to clarify, I think you left the word out "some" people in the hobby. No matter where you go, there will always be idiots or grown adults who act like idiots, thats just the sad fact of the world we live in. I know that first hand as I live in an area where people think their bike parts are gold plated and ask prices so high that you want to take the bike part and hit them with it. There are some here who have only been collecting for a year or so and want to learn from the best, and there are others who look for any chance to exploit the hobby. Somewhere in between all that is the average Joe who finds a bike somewhere and wants to restore it to it's original glory whether it be for a close relative or for one's self, so they come here and wander the halls looking for information. With the exception of the exploiters, all are welcome, which is why I'm here. 

I feel that there was a hint of arrogance in the way this whole situation was handled, and when 2 or more arrogant ego's collide, it's a wreck. I think this can be compared to a Pawn Stars episode where a customer walks in the shop with something he knows little about, they call in an expert who says it's worth a fortune only to be told that the customer either no longer wants to sell, or is asking a price out of the league. The disappointment likely turns to resentment.

Honestly, if you have what we all think you have, you would be better off setting a private auction as people who spend that amount of money on "kids toys" don't really like their names out there. Especially if it is a wealthy well known individual.

http://privateauction.com/

Good luck! I'll be watching.


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 15, 2011)

snickle said:


> Just to clarify, I think you left the word out "some" people in the hobby. No matter where you go, there will always be idiots or grown adults who act like idiots, thats just the sad fact of the world we live in. I know that first hand as I live in an area where people think their bike parts are gold plated and ask prices so high that you want to take the bike part and hit them with it. There are some here who have only been collecting for a year or so and want to learn from the best, and there are others who look for any chance to exploit the hobby. Somewhere in between all that is the average Joe who finds a bike somewhere and wants to restore it to it's original glory whether it be for a close relative or for one's self, so they come here and wander the halls looking for information. With the exception of the exploiters, all are welcome, which is why I'm here.
> 
> I feel that there was a hint of arrogance in the way this whole situation was handled, and when 2 or more arrogant ego's collide, it's a wreck. I think this can be compared to a Pawn Stars episode where a customer walks in the shop with something he knows little about, they call in an expert who says it's worth a fortune only to be told that the customer either no longer wants to sell, or is asking a price out of the league. The disappointment likely turns to resentment.
> 
> ...




I appreciate your thoughts and by no means was I attempting to paint everyone involved in this hobby as the "typhoon" guy.   

I've received a mix bag before, during, and after the auction. Ranging from you're an idiot to I can't believe it didn't sell. I think it might be a little of both and some people are getting their jollies poking me.  

As far as the arrogance, part of that was excitement after some very generous offers, part of that was inexperience and part of that was not wanting to appear as an easy mark. 


David


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## snickle (Aug 15, 2011)

Very well said Dave, I now understand your stance and I can't say I wouldn't have been the same way given the circumstances. Keep us posted on the bike's progress.


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## schwinnnewbie (Aug 17, 2011)

*Up on Ebay again*

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260837342120

I've listed the bike again. I took some advice and the auction is private and the bidding starts at $1. The auction ends August 20, Saturday morning.  Thanks again, guys.

David


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