All true! It's nice to have the "right" tools, but there's more than one way to climb a hill
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Schwinn Lightweights Wheel Building
- Thread starter momo608
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All true! It's nice to have the "right" tools, but there's more than one way to climb a hill
Here is one example of two nos 27" wheels I recently bought. An exciting find at a very good cost in my book. Pretty much all I do is restorations of one sort or another. I constantly ask myself especially when I spend gobs of time on something to get things right, how good was this when it was new. The answer in most cases is probably not very. Unfortunately in the restoration business not very good is not acceptable even if it was that way when new. It is nice to see though first hand by going back in time in a way, pulling out something from the original box that was never used or abused and see just how good it was.
These 1976 dated wheels with french hubs are not built very well at all and I assume these were meant to bolt on and go. I suppose the purpose of that true tag is to indicate that these rims have been trued. I would give it just an OK in that department. There is a slight wobble in both rims, not bad but certainly unacceptable if you paid a shop to build you up some new wheels. Spoke tensions are all over the place with some spokes being close to being loose. There is a sticky residue on the rims which I guess is a rust preventive, thanks for that. Not one spec of rust to be found. The spokes themselves look as bad as spokes you see on your typical 40 to 50 year old used Schwinn.That plating was crap from day one. The axle cones are adjusted on the tight side, no play at all. I leave mine with a "hint" of play. If I remember right, I got that from the Schwinn service manual as the way to properly do it. Nevertheless very very happy to have these time capsule wheels.
These 1976 dated wheels with french hubs are not built very well at all and I assume these were meant to bolt on and go. I suppose the purpose of that true tag is to indicate that these rims have been trued. I would give it just an OK in that department. There is a slight wobble in both rims, not bad but certainly unacceptable if you paid a shop to build you up some new wheels. Spoke tensions are all over the place with some spokes being close to being loose. There is a sticky residue on the rims which I guess is a rust preventive, thanks for that. Not one spec of rust to be found. The spokes themselves look as bad as spokes you see on your typical 40 to 50 year old used Schwinn.That plating was crap from day one. The axle cones are adjusted on the tight side, no play at all. I leave mine with a "hint" of play. If I remember right, I got that from the Schwinn service manual as the way to properly do it. Nevertheless very very happy to have these time capsule wheels.
My Schwinn shop experience started in 1966, and I seem to recall that all wheels for "lightweights" were interlaced. But when I went to Schwinn service school in the late '60s, we were taught wheelbuilding on 20in. rims - certainly not interlaced nor was interlacing mentioned. I'm not sure when Schwinn started machine building wheels, perhaps in the early '70s. I do remember the bike boom wheels of the mid-70s always came in horrible shape, loose spokes, little or no hand truing.
Jeff54
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
The rumors I understood, back then, which may have been based on yet unfounded but, companies were moving parts manufacturing and assembly lines to Mexico then shipping to Chicago hence the poor quality so, was it so? Or did Schwinn "approved" pot smoking at work and or put beer machines in the factory lounges?
Thanks for the input! I assume you were not taught with tension meters or any other modern gizmos. I would be interested on what they said about how to spoke tensioning or anything else you can remember.
As I recall (almost 50yrs. later), it was a very basic, hands-on class. No spoke tension meters or gizmos, no dishing or interlacing. We were given hubs, spokes, and 20in. rims. The components had been pre-selected. Schwinn taught a method of loading the hub that was different than what I had been taught in the shop by the "old timers" in that all the spokes were loaded into the hub before the first spoke is attached to the rim. Basically (and quickly!) the hub is held in the left hand and 3 spokes are dropped downward through the top flange (with a hole between each), and then 3 are dropped through the bottom flange with the top spoke hanging to the right of the corresponding bottom spoke. These 6 spokes are then used as a handle while loading the remaining "heads up" spokes, then the hub is flipped and the remaining spokes loaded. Use a flat table, lay everything out and begin attaching spokes. This is where the spoke crossing (and interlacing) takes place. I could go on but I won't unless anyone is interested. The advantages of this method is that you can walk away mid-build and come back a week later and pick back up. The disadvantages are that you have to be very careful not to scratch aluminum anodized rims with all those spokes being moved around. Also, I'd have to look but I think this builds a mirror image rim and you might have issues if you are into the pulling spokes inside or outside thing for the rear wheel. Too much info for now, probably a video out there somewhere anyway, but I'll add that I do use this method to this day and have had great results with many, many wheels. YMMV
I never heard the Mexico rumor. I just remember how bad the wheels were in mid-'74, when I began my second stint in the bike shop after a 4-year break courtesy of the U.S. Army. This was especially true of the lower-end Varsity and perhaps Continental. Likely this was when they went to machine building and, because of the bike boom, probably saw little or no touchup by human hands, assuming the machine was set up properly to begin with. Believe it or not, I'm seeing the same thing with new bikes at my post-engineering career retirement bike shop gig.
Getting more serious about the quality of my wheel building with my new spoke tension meter and came across this.
Wheelbuilding Tip No. 19 – How Tight is Right?
We’ve covered how tension contributes to the structure. I’ve showed a few ways to measure it. We’ve also discussed the importance of even tension on each side of the wheel.
But how tight is right? In other words, what is optimal tension?
About Tension Levels
(1) There is no one correct tension for all wheels. Resist generalities, like “tighter is better.” No more true of spoke tension than of tire pressure. Situations vary widely.
(2) Even with low spoke tension, wire wheels can efficiently support very large loads with minimal flex. Damon Rinard’s famous stiffness test should have put misconceptions to rest. But they’re out there like zombies (… ideas that should have died long ago in the face of evidence or logic, but just keep shambling forward, eating peoples’ brains).
Having tested spoke wire for years and made and sold millions of spokes, I will confirm the single greatest defensible argument for higher spoke tension is its contribution to spoke fatigue life by minimizing moments of zero tension during load cycles.
How Much is Too Much or Too Little?
(1) Don’t build extra tight to keep a wheel from vibrating apart. Spoke tension is for supporting loads. Thread compounds (or nylock nuts) are for loosening prevention. The effects overlap but don’t mix them up.
(2) Extra tension is not the best way to get components to settle in. Spokes that need to be bent straight, nipples that need to be forced down into a lasting position, these are best achieved with dedicated manipulations (likestress relieving).
(3) Rim deformation at the nipple can be a bad sign. In the old days (decades ago) designs existed that were not stable until deformed. Today, that is no longer the case. When a rim deforms from tension, that zone enters its plastic phase. A structure with a major component in, or close, to plastic deformation is vulnerable to fatigue and failure. A well-designed rim should accept spoke tension without deformation. There are exceptions. None of this is black and white.
(4) Excessive tension takes longer to achieve, like an acrobat balancing an extra heavy stack of props. The customer pays for this. Is it a waste of money? And if you the builder don’t charge, then is it wasting yours?
(5) Inadequate tension is indicated by flex noticed and resented by the rider, noise as the wheel rotates (and spokes rub), and short spoke fatigue life (assuming quality spokes to begin with).
(6) An overly tight wire wheel is prone to sudden deformation with little warning. The well known result is often called a “taco.” It’s up there with crank or handlebar breakage for danger. Creeping up on this possibility is not worth it especially. Like recklessly unrolling your sleeping bag at night, on the Grand Canyon’s rim. If you make a mistake, it may be too late! I am more curious about acceptable low tension points than where is the high tension flash point.
Today a huge number of rims, spokes, and hubs are designed to support 100kgf of tension in each spoke with very high reliability. It would be a generalization to say 100kgf is “right” but if you go higher, know why and how much. Using half, on the other hand, is rarely ugly.
About Tension Levels
(1) There is no one correct tension for all wheels. Resist generalities, like “tighter is better.” No more true of spoke tension than of tire pressure. Situations vary widely.
(2) Even with low spoke tension, wire wheels can efficiently support very large loads with minimal flex. Damon Rinard’s famous stiffness test should have put misconceptions to rest. But they’re out there like zombies (… ideas that should have died long ago in the face of evidence or logic, but just keep shambling forward, eating peoples’ brains).
Having tested spoke wire for years and made and sold millions of spokes, I will confirm the single greatest defensible argument for higher spoke tension is its contribution to spoke fatigue life by minimizing moments of zero tension during load cycles.
Don’t crank that tension too high!
How Much is Too Much or Too Little?
(1) Don’t build extra tight to keep a wheel from vibrating apart. Spoke tension is for supporting loads. Thread compounds (or nylock nuts) are for loosening prevention. The effects overlap but don’t mix them up.
(2) Extra tension is not the best way to get components to settle in. Spokes that need to be bent straight, nipples that need to be forced down into a lasting position, these are best achieved with dedicated manipulations (likestress relieving).
(3) Rim deformation at the nipple can be a bad sign. In the old days (decades ago) designs existed that were not stable until deformed. Today, that is no longer the case. When a rim deforms from tension, that zone enters its plastic phase. A structure with a major component in, or close, to plastic deformation is vulnerable to fatigue and failure. A well-designed rim should accept spoke tension without deformation. There are exceptions. None of this is black and white.
(4) Excessive tension takes longer to achieve, like an acrobat balancing an extra heavy stack of props. The customer pays for this. Is it a waste of money? And if you the builder don’t charge, then is it wasting yours?
(5) Inadequate tension is indicated by flex noticed and resented by the rider, noise as the wheel rotates (and spokes rub), and short spoke fatigue life (assuming quality spokes to begin with).
(6) An overly tight wire wheel is prone to sudden deformation with little warning. The well known result is often called a “taco.” It’s up there with crank or handlebar breakage for danger. Creeping up on this possibility is not worth it especially. Like recklessly unrolling your sleeping bag at night, on the Grand Canyon’s rim. If you make a mistake, it may be too late! I am more curious about acceptable low tension points than where is the high tension flash point.
Today a huge number of rims, spokes, and hubs are designed to support 100kgf of tension in each spoke with very high reliability. It would be a generalization to say 100kgf is “right” but if you go higher, know why and how much. Using half, on the other hand, is rarely ugly.
How to Manage Tension
(1) Get a tensiometer. Riders depend on builders knowing tension. They deserve it. Check these cool Mavic tension tools, built for internal use.
Notice the bottom right cam. Lever rotates to push the spoke against a compression spring hidden in the tool’s mid-section.
Wider spacing for low spoke count.
Hozan’s model. A handlebar grip, perfect!
DT’s gem.
Park’s workhorse.
Remember me? Over 15,000 sold.
Aircraft control wire tension gauge. We’re not the only ones who need to know.
(2) Use a good fitting spoke wrench. Some of the options are discussed here.
(3) Use an effective lubricant. Pedro’s, Park, Phil, Chevron, all have good options. Lube the nipple-to-rim seat and, unless you employ a dedicated spoke thread compound (like Spoke Prep™), lube the threads as well. Spoke windup, even when resisted by a holder or plier, slows you down and weakens the spoke at the first thread.
(4) Keep records and observations. Data is the holy grail for engineering. Why? Because a scarcity leads to bad decisions. Listen to people with lots of data. It sometimes takes a thousand examples before a phenomenon is well understood. In cycling, we draw conclusions earlier, but more data = better solutions, especially when talking tension.
http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/wheelbuilding-tip-19-tight-right/
Wheelbuilding Tip No. 19 – How Tight is Right?
We’ve covered how tension contributes to the structure. I’ve showed a few ways to measure it. We’ve also discussed the importance of even tension on each side of the wheel.
But how tight is right? In other words, what is optimal tension?
About Tension Levels
(1) There is no one correct tension for all wheels. Resist generalities, like “tighter is better.” No more true of spoke tension than of tire pressure. Situations vary widely.
(2) Even with low spoke tension, wire wheels can efficiently support very large loads with minimal flex. Damon Rinard’s famous stiffness test should have put misconceptions to rest. But they’re out there like zombies (… ideas that should have died long ago in the face of evidence or logic, but just keep shambling forward, eating peoples’ brains).
Having tested spoke wire for years and made and sold millions of spokes, I will confirm the single greatest defensible argument for higher spoke tension is its contribution to spoke fatigue life by minimizing moments of zero tension during load cycles.
How Much is Too Much or Too Little?
(1) Don’t build extra tight to keep a wheel from vibrating apart. Spoke tension is for supporting loads. Thread compounds (or nylock nuts) are for loosening prevention. The effects overlap but don’t mix them up.
(2) Extra tension is not the best way to get components to settle in. Spokes that need to be bent straight, nipples that need to be forced down into a lasting position, these are best achieved with dedicated manipulations (likestress relieving).
(3) Rim deformation at the nipple can be a bad sign. In the old days (decades ago) designs existed that were not stable until deformed. Today, that is no longer the case. When a rim deforms from tension, that zone enters its plastic phase. A structure with a major component in, or close, to plastic deformation is vulnerable to fatigue and failure. A well-designed rim should accept spoke tension without deformation. There are exceptions. None of this is black and white.
(4) Excessive tension takes longer to achieve, like an acrobat balancing an extra heavy stack of props. The customer pays for this. Is it a waste of money? And if you the builder don’t charge, then is it wasting yours?
(5) Inadequate tension is indicated by flex noticed and resented by the rider, noise as the wheel rotates (and spokes rub), and short spoke fatigue life (assuming quality spokes to begin with).
(6) An overly tight wire wheel is prone to sudden deformation with little warning. The well known result is often called a “taco.” It’s up there with crank or handlebar breakage for danger. Creeping up on this possibility is not worth it especially. Like recklessly unrolling your sleeping bag at night, on the Grand Canyon’s rim. If you make a mistake, it may be too late! I am more curious about acceptable low tension points than where is the high tension flash point.
Today a huge number of rims, spokes, and hubs are designed to support 100kgf of tension in each spoke with very high reliability. It would be a generalization to say 100kgf is “right” but if you go higher, know why and how much. Using half, on the other hand, is rarely ugly.
About Tension Levels
(1) There is no one correct tension for all wheels. Resist generalities, like “tighter is better.” No more true of spoke tension than of tire pressure. Situations vary widely.
(2) Even with low spoke tension, wire wheels can efficiently support very large loads with minimal flex. Damon Rinard’s famous stiffness test should have put misconceptions to rest. But they’re out there like zombies (… ideas that should have died long ago in the face of evidence or logic, but just keep shambling forward, eating peoples’ brains).
Having tested spoke wire for years and made and sold millions of spokes, I will confirm the single greatest defensible argument for higher spoke tension is its contribution to spoke fatigue life by minimizing moments of zero tension during load cycles.
Don’t crank that tension too high!
How Much is Too Much or Too Little?
(1) Don’t build extra tight to keep a wheel from vibrating apart. Spoke tension is for supporting loads. Thread compounds (or nylock nuts) are for loosening prevention. The effects overlap but don’t mix them up.
(2) Extra tension is not the best way to get components to settle in. Spokes that need to be bent straight, nipples that need to be forced down into a lasting position, these are best achieved with dedicated manipulations (likestress relieving).
(3) Rim deformation at the nipple can be a bad sign. In the old days (decades ago) designs existed that were not stable until deformed. Today, that is no longer the case. When a rim deforms from tension, that zone enters its plastic phase. A structure with a major component in, or close, to plastic deformation is vulnerable to fatigue and failure. A well-designed rim should accept spoke tension without deformation. There are exceptions. None of this is black and white.
(4) Excessive tension takes longer to achieve, like an acrobat balancing an extra heavy stack of props. The customer pays for this. Is it a waste of money? And if you the builder don’t charge, then is it wasting yours?
(5) Inadequate tension is indicated by flex noticed and resented by the rider, noise as the wheel rotates (and spokes rub), and short spoke fatigue life (assuming quality spokes to begin with).
(6) An overly tight wire wheel is prone to sudden deformation with little warning. The well known result is often called a “taco.” It’s up there with crank or handlebar breakage for danger. Creeping up on this possibility is not worth it especially. Like recklessly unrolling your sleeping bag at night, on the Grand Canyon’s rim. If you make a mistake, it may be too late! I am more curious about acceptable low tension points than where is the high tension flash point.
Today a huge number of rims, spokes, and hubs are designed to support 100kgf of tension in each spoke with very high reliability. It would be a generalization to say 100kgf is “right” but if you go higher, know why and how much. Using half, on the other hand, is rarely ugly.
How to Manage Tension
(1) Get a tensiometer. Riders depend on builders knowing tension. They deserve it. Check these cool Mavic tension tools, built for internal use.
Notice the bottom right cam. Lever rotates to push the spoke against a compression spring hidden in the tool’s mid-section.
Wider spacing for low spoke count.
Hozan’s model. A handlebar grip, perfect!
DT’s gem.
Park’s workhorse.
Remember me? Over 15,000 sold.
Aircraft control wire tension gauge. We’re not the only ones who need to know.
(2) Use a good fitting spoke wrench. Some of the options are discussed here.
(3) Use an effective lubricant. Pedro’s, Park, Phil, Chevron, all have good options. Lube the nipple-to-rim seat and, unless you employ a dedicated spoke thread compound (like Spoke Prep™), lube the threads as well. Spoke windup, even when resisted by a holder or plier, slows you down and weakens the spoke at the first thread.
(4) Keep records and observations. Data is the holy grail for engineering. Why? Because a scarcity leads to bad decisions. Listen to people with lots of data. It sometimes takes a thousand examples before a phenomenon is well understood. In cycling, we draw conclusions earlier, but more data = better solutions, especially when talking tension.
http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/wheelbuilding-tip-19-tight-right/
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