1960’s Schwinn Deluxe Headset vs. Schwinn Standard Symbol Stamped Headset which was used?

[WillWork4Parts]

Just to share what I did find in a couple of distributor price inserts like @Schwinn Sales West was talking about...

The 63 catalog calls out the same 7522 part number as the 65 parts catalog I posted earlier. So the casting did not change the part number.

This 67 catalog goes by IBM numbers...without pictures, this one may cause more confusion than help in terms of the many stems that were offered that year. It does call out the 65 and 66 types to differentiate the diameter change though.

 

[WillWork4Parts]

The Schwinn stem castings made a few other changes from the 66 type(small dia) around 74 or 75 as well. The area for the pinch bolt became beveled at the slot, the wedge was turned 90 degrees to the side, and another pair of numbers were cast into the side opposite MAX ## HT. Guessing these were made by Ashtabula as well and were some sort of internal QC or cast info. You'll notice too that the 66 type stem wedge changed shape. It adds a stop at the top of the wedge thread casting so that the stem can't be AS over tightened to stick out past the bevel of the stem and bulge the steer tube.

This was the only damaged steer tube that I hung on to, it's bulged and wavey just to an extent prior to splitting I'm sure. Luckily the wedge tip faces away from the keyway where you usually find steer tubes split. I think the wedge was turned sideways, again, to help with safety.

If you can't read the castings, from top to bottom the stems are:
2 G54 31 (76 on opposite side)

75 (side facing wedge with similar casting as above on opposite side)

73 41(?Never noticed that sideways stamp before either? With a forward facing wedge)

MAX HT (late 64 thru 65 7/8" dia stem)

 

[Dave Vegas]

The gooseneck wedge is broken in this picture. FYI, it not anything to panic about, it's a common problem and usually has no impact on how well the wedge secures the neck inside the fork steerer tube.

Obviously, if you have a new wedge with the correct angle cut lug, and diameter, you would replace it. But after 60 years these parts are not easily located, so lubricate the lug and the stem bolt threads and give it a try. In most cases it will still give 100% service.

John

Yes I noticed that.I have the broken tip.

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

There's the page I was looking for! From the Schwinn Reporter?
I think I remember now, seeing you post this a couple years ago...
Just to get the phrasing into searchable text...The MAX HT casting in the 7/8 handlebar stems started being used in Aug 1964, roughly. The longer handlebars gave more leverage to the rider, polo seats set the rider further back about the bike's center of gravity, and the thinner threaded area of the deluxe headset left more of the threaded and keyed area below the race exposed to splitting when the stem was raised that high. This makes sense for the change to occur after more riders were using this style bike starting in the later half of 63, Schwinn saw more fork stem(steer tube) damage happening, it probably took them a while to come up with a way to address the liability, develop that stem, and finally roll out the information to the dealers roughly a year into the Stingray craze...still just the beginning really. I doubt there is a Document to mention the deluxe headset having anything to do with the steer tubes splitting, but it's awfully coincidental if it had nothing to do with the stem casting change.

Now I'll be on the lookout for mid 64 example bikes with the stem change....except for the heavyweights, Cycle Trucks, and select 27" bikes, Ha! Thanks @koolbikes and @60sstuff !!!

Great discussion, and "thanks" for your documentation photos, they tell the story so well.

Frame builders use a term for headsets called "Stack Height". Not all headsets have the same Stack Height. Without getting into a very technical discussion, it would be interesting to compare the stack height between the two Schwinn headsets being discussed in this subject. Without comparing the lower fork race, bearing, and bottom cup, which are the same parts on both headsets, lets restrict the discussion to just the top parts.

So, here's what needs to be measured. First, The Standard headset "assembled" with the top cup, a #2557 retainer, standard adjusting cone, key washer, and the "square corner" top lock nut. With it assembled use a caliper to measure from the top of the lock nut down to just under the lip of the top cup, basically the surface it would bottom out on the frame head. For the sake of this conversation, let's call this measurement the Stack Height of the Schwinn Standard Headset.

Next let's do the same thing with the Schwinn Deluxe headset. Measure from the top of the "square corner" lock nut, with a key lock washer, a #73 retainer (positioned correctly upside down), and the top stationary cone, measuring down to just under the lip that seats on top of the frames head tube.

With the two headsets in front of you it might take a minute to make these two comparison measurements.

It would also be interesting to use a Sting Ray bicycle frame and fork and make a comparison of how much difference the two headsets were when compared to the amount of exposed fork threads (without the lock nut and key washer). Just the two different head sets installed in a bicycle. I have never seen an Original Equipment repair fork that was listed for use where they had different fork numbers for the different headsets. My guess is the stack height on the two Schwinn headsets is the same, or very close to the same. That's just my wild guess.

None of the stems we are discussing were "cast", they are all "forged". The early forged stems used "cast" stem wedges, and you see the results in their breakage. The later revised stems used "forged" stem wedges, and they also revised the wedge "pull up" angle and added raised grooves to better secure the stem to the fork and resist twisting.

John

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

That is ridiculous. You insert a stem in a stem? LMFAO ... Betty Lou typed that up and nobody pwoof wred it. Or did it get auto corrected by her smart typewriter?

It is pretty funny looking back at it now.

We did not get our secretary at SSW a IBM "Ball" typewriter with the "erase feature" until the late 1980's. You would have thought Christmas came early that year for Jeanette.

We take so much for granted today. Spell check, and Auto Correct works well most of the time.

John

 

[coasterbrakejunkie1969]

Great info, I thought it was 68. Do you have anything that pertains to what I call "safety forks", ones with a 3/8 axle hole and 5/16 slot? I've found this on 68 models.

This fork was introduced in 1969, I can't say I have ever seen one with the enlarged holes dated '68 but I could be wrong. You may have a '68 stamped serial number but the bike was actually a '69

 

[Marshall Waha]

It was not a part problem that forced the change. It was the "knuckle head kids" that had to raise the stem so high that the gooseneck lug aligned with the weak stress point of where the threads ended on the fork steerer. There's not a week that goes by that you do not see a bike posted on the CABE with the gooseneck raised "too high". That's why I feel it was a "user problem", not "a part problem". The 7/8" stem diameter worked well for 70 years, even on industrial applications, Cycle Trucks, Newspaper Delivery bicycles etc., that carried heavy loads.

All of the headset parts, adjusting cone/cup, the key washer, and the lock nut were above the end of the fork threading. The taller threads on the standard headset will not provide any additional strength to the fork steer tube. The steerer tubes broke below any part of the headset.

So that brings us to the "later" 13/16" .833" fork/stem size. It allows for a thicker wall steerer tube, it's "over built" just so knuckleheads can raise the gooseneck so high they can see the ugly embossed Maximum Height Mark. Seems sad that as enthusiast's we cannot protect ourselves by doing the right things. The CPSC, and Lawyers, controlled the bicycle industry by the early 1960's.

I never liked installing the universal fit service forks from Ashtabula. They were threaded all the way down the steerer tube so they could be "cut to length" and fit any frame head size. The fork legs were strong, the stem was the weak point.

Off my soap box, LOL

John

You mention that it's a user error well I think it's both a "user error" and a "parts problem." If Schwinn had made a longer quill stem to begin with (not the gooseneck itself mind you) but the part of the stem that inserted into the steerer tube, had that been made longer like another 6 inches...so if you add how tall it originally the standard stem was plus 6 inches, I'm guessing it would've been like 10 inches overall or even 12 inches, that would've solved the issue. Then those "knucklehead kids" could've raised the quill stem without breaking the weakest point on the fork where the threads ended outside of the fork for the headset. They done that for both the 22.2 mm and the 21.1 mm I would've like I said solved the problem. That's why I'm not putting a standard stem from Schwinn on my stingray I'm putting a longer non-Schwinn stand that way kids can raise it up and lower it as they please and it's not a big deal.

 

[Tim the Skid]

What a great thread for those seeking to gain knowledge about the early Stingrays! THANK YOU to all of you who posted this great information.

 

[coasterbrakejunkie1969]

Everyone should own a Stingray

 

[WillWork4Parts]

You mention that it's a user error well I think it's both a "user error" and a "parts problem." If Schwinn had made a longer quill stem to begin with (not the gooseneck itself mind you) but the part of the stem that inserted into the steerer tube, had that been made longer like another 6 inches...so if you add how tall it originally the standard stem was plus 6 inches, I'm guessing it would've been like 10 inches overall or even 12 inches, that would've solved the issue. Then those "knucklehead kids" could've raised the quill stem without breaking the weakest point on the fork where the threads ended outside of the fork for the headset. They done that for both the 22.2 mm and the 21.1 mm I would've like I said solved the problem. That's why I'm not putting a standard stem from Schwinn on my stingray I'm putting a longer non-Schwinn stand that way kids can raise it up and lower it as they please and it's not a big deal.

I'm not currently a kid from the 1960s, nor have I ever been...but I believe the logic back then would have been following the trend of having high rise handlebars to be a "rebel" and because the taller they were, the easier it was to pop wheelies....which may have led to conversations such as "my handlebars are higher than yours." Which would have led to raising stems in a form of "knucklehead kid" competition. If you gave them taller stems, they would have just raised them to the point of breaking too. There wasn't a stop to keep you from raising beyond a safe point, but the MAX HT mark was there to make it obvious that you were doing something wrong. It probably let Schwinn off the hook for liability and part replacement of a fork that was obviously abused.
Also, if you add even 3 inches to a stem, it's going to bottom out in the short steer tube on a boy's 20" bike. There's only so much adjustability to a quill stem.