1960’s Schwinn Deluxe Headset vs. Schwinn Standard Symbol Stamped Headset which was used?

[Schwinn Sales West]

Sorry, @Schwinn Sales West , I didn't forget about your stack height question. I got wrapped up in trying to compile info for a post about differences throughout the years and quickly realized there are too many to list in one post and maintain any train of thought that a reader would want to follow, so I'll stick to direct questions one at a time and not have to worry about taking a bunch of bikes apart all at once either. I had some headsets separated in an organizer and found they didn't have date stamps on the 64 and 65 ones I set aside. Here's the next best thing to a complete bike, forks that I left the headsets on after stripping the bike, they have the date codes to keep things relevant to this thread.

View attachment 2130982 July 65 26" middleweight fork for the Standard headset.

View attachment 2130983 December 65 26" lightweight fork for the Deluxe Headset. View attachment 2130984 Trying to get the parts in focus with the caliper in shot just wasn't happening, plus there's Always a critic concerned about how to use a measuring device...so I figure simple side by side representations are the best. Straight edge used to better represent the height differences. Bearings are installed in the correct direction here, but the crown race is omitted because it's not important for what we are looking to measure.

The insertion depth of the top cup and top cone looked different at first, but you can see the tiniest gap when put end to end, so small it's not worth measuring. View attachment 2130989

View attachment 2130991 Everything else is identical, so no need to measure any of that. Here is where the first difference is obvious, the standard headset is taller. View attachment 2130997 These are the depths of the assemblies from top rim of threads to the flat surface of the table below. I'd say a +/- of .3mm is plenty of accuracy for what we are looking for. 23.6mm and 22.0mm respectively, that makes the Deluxe Headset stack height 1.6mm shorter.

Next we measure the depth of the threaded area of the cup and cone only, in the same way. View attachment 2130998 11.5mm and 6.8mm respectively. So we have 4.7mm less threaded area to grip with and support the fork steer tube from bulging. Do the math and draw imaginary lines on the fork where the bottoms of the threaded parts stop and they will be 3.1mm apart, or roughly an 1/8" higher for the Deluxe Headset. It's less than I thought after finding that the stack height of the Deluxe is shorter, but I still think that's significant if you were to go about a serious stress test on these parts. It's not going to make me stop riding a bike with a Deluxe Headset, because I don't put these original bikes through that kind of stress or abuse...but now we know something that we didn't before! Ha

@willworkfor

Sorry, @Schwinn Sales West , I didn't forget about your stack height question. I got wrapped up in trying to compile info for a post about differences throughout the years and quickly realized there are too many to list in one post and maintain any train of thought that a reader would want to follow, so I'll stick to direct questions one at a time and not have to worry about taking a bunch of bikes apart all at once either. I had some headsets separated in an organizer and found they didn't have date stamps on the 64 and 65 ones I set aside. Here's the next best thing to a complete bike, forks that I left the headsets on after stripping the bike, they have the date codes to keep things relevant to this thread.

View attachment 2130982 July 65 26" middleweight fork for the Standard headset. View attachment 2130983 December 65 26" lightweight fork for the Deluxe Headset. View attachment 2130984 Trying to get the parts in focus with the caliper in shot just wasn't happening, plus there's Always a critic concerned about how to use a measuring device...so I figure simple side by side representations are the best. Straight edge used to better represent the height differences. Bearings are installed in the correct direction here, but the crown race is omitted because it's not important for what we are looking to measure.

The insertion depth of the top cup and top cone looked different at first, but you can see the tiniest gap when put end to end, so small it's not worth measuring. View attachment 2130989

View attachment 2130991 Everything else is identical, so no need to measure any of that. Here is where the first difference is obvious, the standard headset is taller. View attachment 2130997 These are the depths of the assemblies from top rim of threads to the flat surface of the table below. I'd say a +/- of .3mm is plenty of accuracy for what we are looking for. 23.6mm and 22.0mm respectively, that makes the Deluxe Headset stack height 1.6mm shorter.

Next we measure the depth of the threaded area of the cup and cone only, in the same way. View attachment 2130998 11.5mm and 6.8mm respectively. So we have 4.7mm less threaded area to grip with and support the fork steer tube from bulging. Do the math and draw imaginary lines on the fork where the bottoms of the threaded parts stop and they will be 3.1mm apart, or roughly an 1/8" higher for the Deluxe Headset. It's less than I thought after finding that the stack height of the Deluxe is shorter, but I still think that's significant if you were to go about a serious stress test on these parts. It's not going to make me stop riding a bike with a Deluxe Headset, because I don't put these original bikes through that kind of stress or abuse...but now we know something that we didn't before! Ha

Great job on the comparison analysis @WillWork4Parts. I appreciate you doing the leg work and photos. I guess we are down to about the difference in height is about the thickness of the headset lock washer. My assumption is, if Schwinn thought changing to a Standard headset would have fixed the steerer tube breakage problem they would not have gone to the expense of making new forging dies for the new stem size, changing the inside diameter on all of their forks, and machining new head locknuts. It was quite an expense for the entire bicycle industry, because of the change in CPSC standards. Maybe they just wanted to give us something to talk about in 60 years.

John

 

[WillWork4Parts]

This doesn't show all of the differences that there were throughout the years, but this is a start for the 50s headsets on up to 1966. These and the ones I posted above all measure to fit a standard headtube of 32.7mm +/-.05mm.

The two on the right don't have any date stamps. The upper bearing in all of them is a Hartford 73 or 73A, except for the standard headset second from the left. The octagonal headset with yellow overspray fits B model bikes and actually came to me on a girls Varsity or Traveler with a Feb 54 serial number. It has date stamps! AS and a Square?

This got me looking at other octagonal headsets.

A Continental that has a 49 3sp hub... notice the difference in manufactured bevel at the reduced area??

This bike is a 47, I'm seeing a trend here with the more straight transition to the reduced area being on the earlier bikes. A date stamp would be better, but we will need to compile photos of those stamps with bikes that we know the year for, as I don't think there is a date stamp list that goes back before 62. If there is one already, please let me know!

I'm hoping I just found a better way to place a date on these bikes like the Continentals that we don't have Schwinn records for their serial numbers.

The headset top nuts didn't have dates, but there were differences in bevels and finishes that I don't even want to get into...but the best advice I can give is if you are worried about on point originality, pay attention to the headset you intend to replace and only swap it with another from the same year with the same finish and bevel.

Also, I'm going to start looking at any 64 stingrays that I come across for that Deluxe Headset and MAX HT stem combination. I definitely don't think the headset was the only "fix" needed, but it makes me curious enough about whether it was cost or safety that drove the change.

 

[WillWork4Parts]

While these catalogs don't say the exact diameters of the special headsets used on Paramounts, Superiors, or Continentals, it does point out the fact that they were specific for a model and tell you what size loose ball bearings they used.

The pages with the blue tops are from my 54 catalog.
These other pages are from my Aug 48 catalog inserts and is the most comprehensive list of parts I think...even though it spreads pictures pages away from their part number and description.

Maybe that would have helped clear up what your frame and headset were back in the day @Schwinn Sales West .

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

This doesn't show all of the differences that there were throughout the years, but this is a start for the 50s headsets on up to 1966. These and the ones I posted above all measure to fit a standard headtube of 32.7mm +/-.05mm.

View attachment 2131004 The two on the right don't have any date stamps. The upper bearing in all of them is a Hartford 73 or 73A, except for the standard headset second from the left. The octagonal headset with yellow overspray fits B model bikes and actually came to me on a girls Varsity or Traveler with a Feb 54 serial number. It has date stamps! AS and a Square?

View attachment 2131001 This got me looking at other octagonal headsets.

View attachment 2131002 A Continental that has a 49 3sp hub... notice the difference in manufactured bevel at the reduced area??

View attachment 2131003 This bike is a 47, I'm seeing a trend here with the more straight transition to the reduced area being on the earlier bikes. A date stamp would be better, but we will need to compile photos of those stamps with bikes that we know the year for, as I don't think there is a date stamp list that goes back before 62. If there is one already, please let me know!

I'm hoping I just found a better way to place a date on these bikes like the Continentals that we don't have Schwinn records for their serial numbers.

The headset top nuts didn't have dates, but there were differences in bevels and finishes that I don't even want to get into...but the best advice I can give is if you are worried about on point originality, pay attention to the headset you intend to replace and only swap it with another from the same year with the same finish and bevel.

Also, I'm going to start looking at any 64 stingrays that I come across for that Deluxe Headset and MAX HT stem combination. I definitely don't think the headset was the only "fix" needed, but it makes me curious enough about whether it was cost or safety that drove the change.

Cost, generally comes down to "product liability settlements and attorney fees". Better to spend the company money actually fixing a problem (even if it's caused by abuse) than sharing it in the court system.

Pretty amazing at how many different variations you have shown in basically the same part. I have some old Schwinn blueprint copies and every single design revision is noted by the date and the person's initials that made the change. They documented everything, all of the changes you have found were not done haphazard.

Thank you for sharing the parts catalog detailed information. Knowing the years of the catalog is very important, as I know Schwinn did not offer a different Dealer Parts Catalog for every annual year change. The catalog color denoted the different catalog, and they were not otherwise dated.

John

 

[WillWork4Parts]

Cost, generally comes down to "product liability settlements and attorney fees". Better to spend the company money actually fixing a problem (even if it's caused by abuse) than sharing it in the court system.

Pretty amazing at how many different variations you have shown in basically the same part. I have some old Schwinn blueprint copies and every single design revision is noted by the date and the person's initials that made the change. They documented everything, all of the changes you have found were not done haphazard.

John

I'd love to see those blueprints!

 

[WillWork4Parts]

I'm seeing a trend here with the more straight transition to the reduced area being on the earlier bikes.

Nevermind, my 48 Continental does not have the more straight transition.
I started taking top nuts loose looking for stamps on the threaded races...no luck on the Continentals or the Superior. The Continentals do all have chrome tab washers though. I'll have to check the other parts when I go to detail them individually. The green New World badged 51 Traveler does have date stamps on the hardware, AS and a shape I'm not sure about, a bird?

Maybe the stamps only made it onto the regular production bikes.

 

[Marshall Waha]

Does anyone have any idea what the symbol on this headset adjusting race is? Is it and arrow or a funnel? From the look of it, it looks like an arrow pointing up but it could be a funnel pointing the wrong way. I am not entirely sure.Here’s the link to the listing where I found the photo:
Schwinn Stingray Krate Slik Chik Fair Lady Fork Bearing Race Nut

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

Does anyone have any idea what the symbol on this headset adjusting race is? Is it and arrow or a funnel? From the look of it, it looks like an arrow pointing up but it could be a funnel pointing the wrong way. I am not entirely sure.Here’s the link to the listing where I found the photo:
Schwinn Stingray Krate Slik Chik Fair Lady Fork Bearing Race Nut

This does not answer your question regarding Schwinn's "date codes".

But the eBay ad you connected is clearly in error. It shows a Schwinn De Luxe headset adjusting cone/cup. It also shows a Schwinn Standard Headset adjusting cone in the lower pictures, and the description talks about a headset nut. You really have no idea what is listed in that sale.

John

 

[coasterbrakejunkie1969]

Does anyone have any idea what the symbol on this headset adjusting race is? Is it and arrow or a funnel? From the look of it, it looks like an arrow pointing up but it could be a funnel pointing the wrong way. I am not entirely sure.Here’s the link to the listing where I found the photo:
Schwinn Stingray Krate Slik Chik Fair Lady Fork Bearing

Does anyone have any idea what the symbol on this headset adjusting race is? Is it and arrow or a funnel? From the look of it, it looks like an arrow pointing up but it could be a funnel pointing the wrong way. I am not entirely sure.Here’s the link to the listing where I found the photo:
Schwinn Stingray Krate Slik Chik Fair Lady Fork Bearing Race Nut

Process of deduction tells me it is a funnel, the arrows point sideways. The other possibilities are a swan or a diamond. The swan is not a closed symbol the top is open. The diamond has a center line on it. Just buy it and move on

 

[Marshall Waha]

Process of deduction tells me it is a funnel, the arrows point sideways. The other possibilities are a swan or a diamond. The swan is not a closed symbol the top is open. The diamond has a center line on it. Just buy it and move on

Thanks, I think its a swan after looking at it more closely. I think I will pass on purchasing it.