Schwinn Sales West
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
Thank you, guys, for adding the visual photos to this dry "classroom" topic. It really helps to understand what I was trying to verbally explain.
I agree with the comments that frame geometry is only part of the "ride quality". Differences in frame material make a huge difference. Mild steel (1010) has to be thicker to have enough fatigue strength. 4130 Chromoly steel is just a stronger grade of steel and allows the use of thinner tube wall sections to still have adequate fatigue strength. Even with the thinner walls, the Chromo steel frame will have a much livelier ride than the bike with the same geometry built out of 1010 tubing. If you know of someone who owns one of the very old Paramount's, ask them if you can flick your fingernail on the top tube. It will "really ring", as they were built from very thin wall tubing, and they ride nice today even after 85 years.
Schwinn management "internally" fought building frames out of aluminum tubing for a long time. They knew about the differences in ride quality as they were also bicycle riders. But the market was changing, and aluminum framed bikes were increasing in sales (Cannondale/Trek). Finally, Schwinn built a separate factory in Greenville, Mississippi to build welded (7000 series) aluminum framed lightweight bikes and "investment cast" lugged frame models. It was felt that they needed to invest in a new factory in an area with a low labor cost, and Right to Work state to avoid the auto workers union that shut down Chicago's factory. IMO, in retrospect it was the right idea, but it took too long to get it rolling. Greenville's wheel building quality was the worst I've seen. Note, I have never ridden an aluminum framed bike that felt as nice as a quality steel framed bike. It's just that steel framed bikes had "the image of your father's Oldsmobile", old school. Aluminum, and later Carbon frames were viewed by the public as cutting-edge materials.
Schwinn's management was not out of touch on what was happening in this changing market. In addition to starting the aluminum frame factory, they purchased an interest in Cycle Composites Inc. This was a small Watsonville, CA company run by John Burke (a former Trek President) and they were building "Bagged" true carbon bicycle frames. I say "true carbon" because they were molded "in one piece" with a bladder inserted inside the tubes and were extremely light in weight. They were not built like the Trek and Giant (first generation) "carbon tubes" glued to an aluminum lug frame. Schwinn sold more Kestral's in the first year of ownership than CCI ever did. The joint venture between CCI manufacturing, and Schwinn's dealership distribution worked very well. CCI never expected Schwinn to sell as many carbon frame sets as we did that first year. Schwinn used their buying power to assemble complete bike building parts kits that a dealer could purchase with either a carbon fiber Kestral, or a "steel" Waterford Paramount frame set. The PDG parts kit program was put together in the West Regional Distribution Center by the General Manager Dave Staub, a former 1000 meter rider on the U.S. Pan American Team.
I rode a Dura Ace equipped Kestral bike for several years and it had a very nice lively ride quality. Very close to my steel framed Paramount's. It's just my opinion, that the largest single factor to the Kestral's nice ride was the carbon fork. I would have liked to try a steel Waterford Paramount with a Kestral carbon fork, which was an option.
Class dismissed.
John
I agree with the comments that frame geometry is only part of the "ride quality". Differences in frame material make a huge difference. Mild steel (1010) has to be thicker to have enough fatigue strength. 4130 Chromoly steel is just a stronger grade of steel and allows the use of thinner tube wall sections to still have adequate fatigue strength. Even with the thinner walls, the Chromo steel frame will have a much livelier ride than the bike with the same geometry built out of 1010 tubing. If you know of someone who owns one of the very old Paramount's, ask them if you can flick your fingernail on the top tube. It will "really ring", as they were built from very thin wall tubing, and they ride nice today even after 85 years.
Schwinn management "internally" fought building frames out of aluminum tubing for a long time. They knew about the differences in ride quality as they were also bicycle riders. But the market was changing, and aluminum framed bikes were increasing in sales (Cannondale/Trek). Finally, Schwinn built a separate factory in Greenville, Mississippi to build welded (7000 series) aluminum framed lightweight bikes and "investment cast" lugged frame models. It was felt that they needed to invest in a new factory in an area with a low labor cost, and Right to Work state to avoid the auto workers union that shut down Chicago's factory. IMO, in retrospect it was the right idea, but it took too long to get it rolling. Greenville's wheel building quality was the worst I've seen. Note, I have never ridden an aluminum framed bike that felt as nice as a quality steel framed bike. It's just that steel framed bikes had "the image of your father's Oldsmobile", old school. Aluminum, and later Carbon frames were viewed by the public as cutting-edge materials.
Schwinn's management was not out of touch on what was happening in this changing market. In addition to starting the aluminum frame factory, they purchased an interest in Cycle Composites Inc. This was a small Watsonville, CA company run by John Burke (a former Trek President) and they were building "Bagged" true carbon bicycle frames. I say "true carbon" because they were molded "in one piece" with a bladder inserted inside the tubes and were extremely light in weight. They were not built like the Trek and Giant (first generation) "carbon tubes" glued to an aluminum lug frame. Schwinn sold more Kestral's in the first year of ownership than CCI ever did. The joint venture between CCI manufacturing, and Schwinn's dealership distribution worked very well. CCI never expected Schwinn to sell as many carbon frame sets as we did that first year. Schwinn used their buying power to assemble complete bike building parts kits that a dealer could purchase with either a carbon fiber Kestral, or a "steel" Waterford Paramount frame set. The PDG parts kit program was put together in the West Regional Distribution Center by the General Manager Dave Staub, a former 1000 meter rider on the U.S. Pan American Team.
I rode a Dura Ace equipped Kestral bike for several years and it had a very nice lively ride quality. Very close to my steel framed Paramount's. It's just my opinion, that the largest single factor to the Kestral's nice ride was the carbon fork. I would have liked to try a steel Waterford Paramount with a Kestral carbon fork, which was an option.
Class dismissed.
John
