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What are these off of: Heavy Duty Center Stamped S2 with 120 Gauge Spokes and RB1 Hub and Heavy Duty Center Stamped S7 with 105 gauge spokes with RB1
- Thread starter cruisin_on_my_schwinn
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Schwinn Sales West
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
IMO, It's just a S-2 rim, any S-2 rim that was drilled for either .105 or .120 spokes. Many different Heavy Duty (3/8" axle) hubs have been used by Schwinn over the years. Spokes, are well just spokes. The wheel could be built in 30 minutes, or less out of parts, including the drilling. If your rim is damaged, no big deal, just find any S-2 rim and replace it using the parts you already have.
The front wheel could be a Whizzer, but almost all of the front Whizzer's run a hub brake hub.
John
Schwinn Sales West
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
Just make sure to use the nipples that match the brand/gauge of the spokes. They do not interchange. John
WillWork4Parts
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
@cruisin_on_my_schwinn is on the right path to save the HD S-2 for a Wasp as the Redband hub and HD spokes was an option in later 59.
The matched original spokes and nipples from that era are definitely getting harder to find though since HD never really seemed to be popular amongst the collectors that are keeping these bikes alive.
The matching HD front hub for the Wasp would have been a Model K Bendix hub with "knock-out axle."
I've got an earlier 59 wasp at home that came with ND hub and .080 spokes, but when someone with a late 59 Wasp wanted to swap me for nicer HD wheels, I didn't hesitate. Serial Numbers on standby if needed.
Bendix Redband HD hub could have been a replacement on a whizzer, but a lot less likely to be WZ original equipment that late in the years.
The matched original spokes and nipples from that era are definitely getting harder to find though since HD never really seemed to be popular amongst the collectors that are keeping these bikes alive.
The matching HD front hub for the Wasp would have been a Model K Bendix hub with "knock-out axle."
I've got an earlier 59 wasp at home that came with ND hub and .080 spokes, but when someone with a late 59 Wasp wanted to swap me for nicer HD wheels, I didn't hesitate. Serial Numbers on standby if needed.
Bendix Redband HD hub could have been a replacement on a whizzer, but a lot less likely to be WZ original equipment that late in the years.
Schwinn Sales West
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
The front hub questions are confusing. Here's some thoughts.
The Wasp came stock with S-2 wheels with .080 spokes and a standard deluxe Schwinn front hub. The deluxe front hub had a 5/16 (but metric thread axle) and had "replaceable" hub cups (#7 retainers) that the bearings ran on. All in all, it was a very good front hub, and was used in the Schwinn line for many years on various models.
The "upgrade" or heavy-duty hub option was a popular choice. In our family dealership we sold lots of Wasps, but they were always fully heavy duty equipped for newsboys' delivery. I cannot remember ever ordering or selling a base model Wasp. The Schwinn heavy duty (3/8") axle was used on what looked like the Schwinn Phone Dial lightweight hub but was all steel and had 1/4" loose ball bearings. This heavy-duty hub was used on both 105 ga, and 120 ga spoked wheels. The Schwinn heavy duty hubs were considered "knock out" hubs because you could remove and replace the hardened bearing cup that was pressed into the hub.
Bendix hubs were also used at times. IMO, I would not call them a "knock out" hub because they did not have replaceable bearing cups. In a Bendix hub (K series, heavy duty) the bearing ran on races cut into the inside of the hub shell. In addition to different various widths of the K series Bendix hubs for light trailers and horse sulkies, they also had two different versions of axle cones. One style used a common 3/8" Bendix rear axle for a front heavy-duty axle. In this version the special sized cones threaded directly onto the Bendix coaster brakes axle. No lock nuts were used. They also offered a more heavy-duty version for the K series called a quill axle. It had a hollow quill (think of an oversized lightweight hollow quick release axle) and although the cones might look like the plain version, they had larger holes and threads to thread onto the quill. They again used the same coaster brake axle, but it just slipped inside the quill, it was free floating, required two wrenches to tighten the axle nuts. The Bendix K "Quill axle style" has two different length cones. The quill has a machined shoulder and the short cone is screwed onto the quill until it bottoms out on the shoulder of the quill. Then the longer quill cone is assembled with the hub and set for bearing adjustment. It uses the normal Bendix 3/4" cone wrenches (no lock nuts) to adjust. The axle just slips through the quill.
The Schwinn (made) heavy duty hubs were Knock Out because they had replaceable "knock out" bearing cups. As time went by parts were discontinued and parts sourcing changed on the delivery models like the Cycle Trucks, Wasp Heavy Duty, American Heavy Duty, and eventually the final version of Heavy Duti bikes made in Chicago. You could find Union Heavy Duty hubs, Chair Heavy Duty Hubs, ACS Heavy Duty hubs after the Schwinn phone dials, and Bendix various series K hubs were out of production. As you look through the various years of Schwinn Dealer Catalogs, I believe this is why you will see the descriptions change when the listed the bikes specifications.
We also saw a change in buyer requests away from the low air pressure balloon S-2's to the models with higher air pressure (lower rolling resistance) middleweight S-7's wheels. This eventually killed the Cycle Trucks and Wasp models for heavy duty delivery, the American took over.
John
The Wasp came stock with S-2 wheels with .080 spokes and a standard deluxe Schwinn front hub. The deluxe front hub had a 5/16 (but metric thread axle) and had "replaceable" hub cups (#7 retainers) that the bearings ran on. All in all, it was a very good front hub, and was used in the Schwinn line for many years on various models.
The "upgrade" or heavy-duty hub option was a popular choice. In our family dealership we sold lots of Wasps, but they were always fully heavy duty equipped for newsboys' delivery. I cannot remember ever ordering or selling a base model Wasp. The Schwinn heavy duty (3/8") axle was used on what looked like the Schwinn Phone Dial lightweight hub but was all steel and had 1/4" loose ball bearings. This heavy-duty hub was used on both 105 ga, and 120 ga spoked wheels. The Schwinn heavy duty hubs were considered "knock out" hubs because you could remove and replace the hardened bearing cup that was pressed into the hub.
Bendix hubs were also used at times. IMO, I would not call them a "knock out" hub because they did not have replaceable bearing cups. In a Bendix hub (K series, heavy duty) the bearing ran on races cut into the inside of the hub shell. In addition to different various widths of the K series Bendix hubs for light trailers and horse sulkies, they also had two different versions of axle cones. One style used a common 3/8" Bendix rear axle for a front heavy-duty axle. In this version the special sized cones threaded directly onto the Bendix coaster brakes axle. No lock nuts were used. They also offered a more heavy-duty version for the K series called a quill axle. It had a hollow quill (think of an oversized lightweight hollow quick release axle) and although the cones might look like the plain version, they had larger holes and threads to thread onto the quill. They again used the same coaster brake axle, but it just slipped inside the quill, it was free floating, required two wrenches to tighten the axle nuts. The Bendix K "Quill axle style" has two different length cones. The quill has a machined shoulder and the short cone is screwed onto the quill until it bottoms out on the shoulder of the quill. Then the longer quill cone is assembled with the hub and set for bearing adjustment. It uses the normal Bendix 3/4" cone wrenches (no lock nuts) to adjust. The axle just slips through the quill.
The Schwinn (made) heavy duty hubs were Knock Out because they had replaceable "knock out" bearing cups. As time went by parts were discontinued and parts sourcing changed on the delivery models like the Cycle Trucks, Wasp Heavy Duty, American Heavy Duty, and eventually the final version of Heavy Duti bikes made in Chicago. You could find Union Heavy Duty hubs, Chair Heavy Duty Hubs, ACS Heavy Duty hubs after the Schwinn phone dials, and Bendix various series K hubs were out of production. As you look through the various years of Schwinn Dealer Catalogs, I believe this is why you will see the descriptions change when the listed the bikes specifications.
We also saw a change in buyer requests away from the low air pressure balloon S-2's to the models with higher air pressure (lower rolling resistance) middleweight S-7's wheels. This eventually killed the Cycle Trucks and Wasp models for heavy duty delivery, the American took over.
John
WillWork4Parts
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
I'm sorry John, but while the "knock-out" race theory you mentioned sort of makes sense, it is incorrect. There were Schwinn made small flange hubs that also had removable races during the late 50s-mid 60s era we are talking about and they were great! They were not called out by Schwinn as knock-out hubs though. If I were buying a bike new then, I would have opted for just the replaceable cup/outer cone small flange hub instead of the HD knock-out Bendix hub. BUT, if I wanted 120ga or 105ga spokes(like OP), the Schwinn stamped small flange hubs were not offered with large enough holes. I have multiple examples of the Model K, even one with the regular rear right side cone on both sides like you mentioned.
The Quill axle version does not have two different length cones like you described, but it does have different length threaded sections on the hollow/quill axle to allow for adjustment while the other side(presumably the right) stays against the shoulder. The Model K with the Quill axle is what the knock-out hub is referring to in advertising though, I'm 100% certain. The knock-out term is used at least as early as 1946 with the Cycle Truck front hubs. If anyone has ever worked on a Cycle Truck, they know the value of a quill axle that will "knock-out" through the non-slotted fork.
From my personal catalog collection:
From the 1946 Waterford Catalog site:
Also from the 1959 Waterford Catalog(same as previous Wasp pic post) :
The Quill axle version does not have two different length cones like you described, but it does have different length threaded sections on the hollow/quill axle to allow for adjustment while the other side(presumably the right) stays against the shoulder. The Model K with the Quill axle is what the knock-out hub is referring to in advertising though, I'm 100% certain. The knock-out term is used at least as early as 1946 with the Cycle Truck front hubs. If anyone has ever worked on a Cycle Truck, they know the value of a quill axle that will "knock-out" through the non-slotted fork.
From my personal catalog collection:
From the 1946 Waterford Catalog site:
Also from the 1959 Waterford Catalog(same as previous Wasp pic post) :
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WillWork4Parts
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
Yes, unfortunately it was robbed of the axle assembly before it came to me.
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