Distinctive stampings on fillet brazed frames

[Schwinn Sales West]

I've had dozens of Schwinn Fillet brazed cro-Mo frames, I guess I never noticed either the star of David or the horse head bottom bracket chop marks, I feel that these were stamped into the shell at the factory prior to going to paint. My gut feeling is that these identified the fabricator since they were there before the bikes left Chicago. Fillet brazed Schwinns were very labor intensive, it took a lot of highly skilled work to finish the brazed joints like Schwinn did, and the chop marks were for bragging rights by the makers. It's entirely possible that some of these guys could still be alive and might set us straight once and for all. I remember riding Southern Pacific trains way back in the day, each conductor had a specially made punch so whomever punched the ticket could be identified.
I'm laying odds that the horse head and star of David are for identification of craftsman inside the plant.

There's really two different topics to consider. Brazing is not all that difficult after you master the control of placing to torch heat where it is needed. Too Much is not a good thing when brazing or soldering as the filler material runs off when it gets to hot, so the key is directing the heat. IMO, torch brazing the frames was not that skilled of a position, after all every frame was built in a different fixture for different frame sizes, in both men's and Ladies frames. The Skilled Position as far as Filet Brazed frames were concerned was the guy that "finished the brazing" without "undercutting the thin steel tubing with grinders and flapper wheels. That was a skilled position, we had some frame failures from "undercut" joints. Even Giant had the same "undercutting" problems on their Filet Brazed High Sierra's built for Schwinn. No matter who did this work, it was dirty, and hard work.

I would question if these unique stamps were placed on the frame to identify "the frame Brazer", or the more important step (IMO), "the frame finisher". What was important to the manufacturer was to identify the source whenever a quality problem arose and to quickly fix the source of that problem.

I'm also surprised that we do not hear from Schwinn Factory workers, as they would still be in their late 70's to early 80's. Just remember, it was not a happy closing of the Schwinn Factory, lots of people got hurt, and the feelings had to run deep.

John

 

[AmericanSchwinnfiend]

There's really two different topics to consider. Brazing is not all that difficult after you master the control of placing to torch heat where it is needed. Too Much is not a good thing when brazing or soldering as the filler material runs off when it gets to hot, so the key is directing the heat. IMO, torch brazing the frames was not that skilled of a position, after all every frame was built in a different fixture for different frame sizes, in both men's and Ladies frames. The Skilled Position as far as Filet Brazed frames were concerned was the guy that "finished the brazing" without "undercutting the thin steel tubing with grinders and flapper wheels. That was a skilled position, we had some frame failures from "undercut" joints. Even Giant had the same "undercutting" problems on their Filet Brazed High Sierra's built for Schwinn. No matter who did this work, it was dirty, and hard work.

I would question if these unique stamps were placed on the frame to identify "the frame Brazer", or the more important step (IMO), "the frame finisher". What was important to the manufacturer was to identify the source whenever a quality problem arose and to quickly fix the source of that problem.

I'm also surprised that we do not hear from Schwinn Factory workers, as they would still be in their late 70's to early 80's. Just remember, it was not a happy closing of the Schwinn Factory, lots of people got hurt, and the feelings had to run deep.

John

Schwinn used a silver alloy for brazing because it flowed at a lower temp than bronze and didn't impair the Chrome Moly steel properties. Of course silver is a precious metal and few other bicycle companies could afford to use it. I agree with your statement that the skilled part was the grinding and polishing to make the joints smooth, some of my friends would strip the paint off the fillet brazed Schwinns and spray clear on them to showcase the beautiful work. Nowadays there are still a few companies that do work like this, but the bikes sell new for over $2000. The Super Sports and Sports Tourers that were Chicago built were about $220. new. The labor costs alone to create a frame like this nowadays is about ten times that.

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

Awesome sample @C M Gerlach, thank you very much indeed!
Love that color as well. Funny that it has a CJ head stamp too. I vaguely understand that the serial number may not necessarily denote the exact date of the bike, but we can see these three samples are all similar.

On the other hand, the bike I went to pick up today is marked as a '71.
Much to my surprise (and dismay!) the markings are faint and buried under the paint. Unable to positively ID anything.

I agree that the stamps may be specific to each builder. I'm wondering if by building the frames in a separate building by hand might have put them into different union? Most certainly a different pay scale for sure!

I would expect they had more than one jig on the line and they might be specific to each one of those too, again for QC purposes.

If you look closely at the blue bike it also has FM32 stamped under the paint.

More samples needed, please keep them coming.

View attachment 2065393

View attachment 2065416

View attachment 2065426

By the time the UAW Union came along the Filet Brazed, especially those with one piece cranks model sales were dead in the water. Not much happened at the Schwinn Factory besides the production of Schwinn Airdynes after the strike was settled. All the focus was on getting the Unilug frame design finalized and the new Schwinn factory opened in Mississippi.

They had to have multiple frame fixtures for different frame sizes and mens and ladies frames.

Yes the stamps had to identify for quality control purposes, but we do not know if it was for the Brazer, or the Frame Finisher?

Someone mentioned they had Chomoly bottom brackets. I would highly doubt that, in fact I would doubt that the rear triangle was chromoly, I believe they were only a "three tube" frame. These were a middle of the road type of model in the Schwinn line.

John

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

Schwinn used a silver alloy for brazing because it flowed at a lower temp than bronze and didn't impair the Chrome Moly steel properties. Of course silver is a precious metal and few other bicycle companies could afford to use it. I agree with your statement that the skilled part was the grinding and polishing to make the joints smooth, some of my friends would strip the paint off the fillet brazed Schwinns and spray clear on them to showcase the beautiful work. Nowadays there are still a few companies that do work like this, but the bikes sell new for over $2000. The Super Sports and Sports Tourers that were Chicago built were about $220. new. The labor costs alone to create a frame like this nowadays is about ten times that.

I remember selling Super Sports "as a dealer" at only $139.95 if my old memory is correct. I agree, the technology is cost prohibitive today.

John

 

[AmericanSchwinnfiend]

By the time the UAW Union came along the Filet Brazed, especially those with one piece cranks model sales were dead in the water. Not much happened at the Schwinn Factory besides the production of Schwinn Airdynes after the strike was settled. All the focus was on getting the Unilug frame design finalized and the new Schwinn factory opened in Mississippi.

They had to have multiple frame fixtures for different frame sizes and mens and ladies frames.

Yes the stamps had to identify for quality control purposes, but we do not know if it was for the Brazer, or the Frame Finisher?

Someone mentioned they had Chomoly bottom brackets. I would highly doubt that, in fact I would doubt that the rear triangle was chromoly, I believe they were only a "three tube" frame. These were a middle of the road type of model in the Schwinn line.

John

The tube specs changed a few times, I used to buy Super sports from the late 1960s that had French "Huret" drop forged casting rear drop outs, those early Super Sports were prettier, some were violet. The geometry changed from time to time as well, I remember having one SS frameset that was only 54cm center to top of mast but 56cm top tube, more of what we consider modern geometry.

 

[AmericanSchwinnfiend]

English isn't the best language, many words are used from other languages because of the lack of English words, German is far better. I think Fillet is a French word to best describe radius of the joints to eliminate stress points, and filet is a prime cut of meat at the grocery store, also of French origin.

 

[GTs58]

The Super Sport was introduced for the 1964 model year. I'm sure lots of details were changed throughout its long production run.

 

[AmericanSchwinnfiend]

I remember selling Super Sports "as a dealer" at only $139.95 if my old memory is correct. I agree, the technology is cost prohibitive today.

John

I sure miss the economy of days past, now with "Bidenflation" $2. worth of groceries now cost $20. I remember in the mid 1970s there was a motorcycle shop in Burlingame CA that ran into financial difficulties and wanted to "blow out" the floor inventory, they had a brand new
"John Player" Norton with zero miles on it they were offering to me for $1000, and a BSA B50MX that had never even been started for $500. The Norton nowadays would be worth about $200k, and the mint B50MX about 20k. Hindsight is 20-20, I think about kicking myself for passing on these two bikes, I had the money at the time, but just barely. Of course, had I have purchased them, I didn't have the maturity to keep them mothballed and would have ridden them until the wheels fell off.

 

[AmericanSchwinnfiend]

The Super Sport was introduced for the 1964 model year. I'm sure lots of details were changed throughout its long production run.

View attachment 2065850

I forgot about the "terra cotta" color, it was as ugly back then as we see it now, but that makes for rare bikes.

 

[AmericanSchwinnfiend]

Anyone out there with an original paint Super Sport in Terra Cotta? When I was doing Sting-Rays, that was a tough one to find.