Mercian
I live for the CABE
Hi All, and especially Jimmy @jimmyjambo43
Jimmy posted the G519 he discovered, in the Westfield Serial Numbers thread yesterday. Post 56 and after...
thecabe.com
This is a long post to discuss an unusual bike. I have started a new thread, because it will be lost in the Serial Numbers thread, and deserves one of it's own.
Jimmy thought (with good reason) that it appeared to be a 1942 G519, and put up a nice set of detailed photos showing what is an original G519, nearly complete, with the green paint showing in many places below an old red paintjob.
It is obviously a long neglected bike, but in quite good condition overall, although missing a saddle and original front wheel.
I have no doubt it is an original G519, but not made in 1942, but in June or soon after, 1945.
As Jimmy said, at first sight would seem to be 1942, with the early curved downtube, steel badge (I would have guessed brass for an early 1942, but this is close to the changeover point for these), coffin chainwheel, and the number MG46352 fits into a known batch of G519 built around March 1942 (see list extract below, showing where it should have fitted in).
However the code for the date of manufacture of the frame is N6, which is June 1945, so it cannot have been made before this. 1942 bikes in this sequence are normally J2 or J3. (February to March 1942).
I considered whether N had been stamped by accident instead of J, but then the 6 would also have to have been stamped by accident, otherwise, for the normal serial number sequence for 1942 to continue, all production would have to have stopped for three months. Not very likely.
So, I will assume for now that N6 is June 1945, although I have not seen an N6 yet, coding stopped about this point, and the latest I've seen is an N5. The letter reversed or on it's side occurs a lot with the 1945 code, and I wonder if it is an indication of who built which frame, or the week of the month. I need to work on that.
Below is an extract from my list showing where 46352 in 1945 occurs....
You can see that the number 46352 in 1945 could be an N6.
.
You can also see that Westfield were building the same frames, and had reverted to the curved downtube by this point. Here is J41059, the nearest survivor to the proposed 1945 date, sold by @Krakatoa :
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1945-westfield-mens-26-civilian-blackout-ballooner.169930/
So then I had to consider if it was a 'Tribute' G519. The old red paint, with the green below, and the general condition of the bike say no.
We know military frames were stamped MF or MG regardless of year, so the lack of a letter J for 1945 and the use of MG instead would not be surprising, if the bike was built then.
A feature noted by Serge @blackcat is that the rear dropouts are not the standard ones associated with G519, which have a stop for a dropstand, but the civilian version.
Since it appears that the serial number MG46352 could have been in a 1942 block, and is from a 1945 block, this means some serial numbers in this range could be duplicated. Four bikes on the 1942 list above from MG45133 to MG48466 do not have frame dates listed, so could potentially be 1945. I have found pictures of thee of them, and they have the standard G519 dropouts, so probably are 1942. I cannot verify one.
The Morrow is the correct 36 -10 version for a G519, I have asked for the Morrow date code, which might help, though these can be swapped in service.
A small detail from here, is that both bikes appear to have duckbills on the rear fender, not a feature of G519's normally (although, I agree, fenders can be changed). Serge noted that the fender braces on the rear fender are also in the position associated with civilian bikes, but the green paint says it should be the original one.
He also noted the the green paint used is the later color, not the color associated with 1942 bikes.
However, the surveys of contracts for military equipment supplied during the war only mention 8 bicycles produced in 1945, all of them Schwinn tandems. But these were compiled and printed in May and September 1945, so it is possible a small production order in June 1945 was missed.
To conclude, as a June 1945 G519, It is a so far unique survivor, and by far the latest G519 known.
Why was it built? The war in Europe was over in May 1945, but it was considered that the war against Japan was about to be stepped up, and be long and costly.
The Hiroshima bomb was August 6th 1945, and Japan surrendered August 14th. Perhaps it was intended as part of a ramp up of production for the Japan war?
If I have missed something, let me know. Your thoughts are welcome.
Best Regards,
Adrian
Jimmy posted the G519 he discovered, in the Westfield Serial Numbers thread yesterday. Post 56 and after...
Westfield Columbia G519 Frame Numbers | Military Bicycles
Thats really interesting.. I will take another look on the liberator site.. some great info already gleaned there! Thanks, here is a better and full view of my MG138969, restored but all original came from the Huertgen Forest region, Germany, roughly 20 years ago
thecabe.com
This is a long post to discuss an unusual bike. I have started a new thread, because it will be lost in the Serial Numbers thread, and deserves one of it's own.
Jimmy thought (with good reason) that it appeared to be a 1942 G519, and put up a nice set of detailed photos showing what is an original G519, nearly complete, with the green paint showing in many places below an old red paintjob.
It is obviously a long neglected bike, but in quite good condition overall, although missing a saddle and original front wheel.
I have no doubt it is an original G519, but not made in 1942, but in June or soon after, 1945.
As Jimmy said, at first sight would seem to be 1942, with the early curved downtube, steel badge (I would have guessed brass for an early 1942, but this is close to the changeover point for these), coffin chainwheel, and the number MG46352 fits into a known batch of G519 built around March 1942 (see list extract below, showing where it should have fitted in).
However the code for the date of manufacture of the frame is N6, which is June 1945, so it cannot have been made before this. 1942 bikes in this sequence are normally J2 or J3. (February to March 1942).
I considered whether N had been stamped by accident instead of J, but then the 6 would also have to have been stamped by accident, otherwise, for the normal serial number sequence for 1942 to continue, all production would have to have stopped for three months. Not very likely.
So, I will assume for now that N6 is June 1945, although I have not seen an N6 yet, coding stopped about this point, and the latest I've seen is an N5. The letter reversed or on it's side occurs a lot with the 1945 code, and I wonder if it is an indication of who built which frame, or the week of the month. I need to work on that.
Below is an extract from my list showing where 46352 in 1945 occurs....
You can see that the number 46352 in 1945 could be an N6.
.
You can also see that Westfield were building the same frames, and had reverted to the curved downtube by this point. Here is J41059, the nearest survivor to the proposed 1945 date, sold by @Krakatoa :
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/1945-westfield-mens-26-civilian-blackout-ballooner.169930/
So then I had to consider if it was a 'Tribute' G519. The old red paint, with the green below, and the general condition of the bike say no.
We know military frames were stamped MF or MG regardless of year, so the lack of a letter J for 1945 and the use of MG instead would not be surprising, if the bike was built then.
A feature noted by Serge @blackcat is that the rear dropouts are not the standard ones associated with G519, which have a stop for a dropstand, but the civilian version.
Since it appears that the serial number MG46352 could have been in a 1942 block, and is from a 1945 block, this means some serial numbers in this range could be duplicated. Four bikes on the 1942 list above from MG45133 to MG48466 do not have frame dates listed, so could potentially be 1945. I have found pictures of thee of them, and they have the standard G519 dropouts, so probably are 1942. I cannot verify one.
The Morrow is the correct 36 -10 version for a G519, I have asked for the Morrow date code, which might help, though these can be swapped in service.
A small detail from here, is that both bikes appear to have duckbills on the rear fender, not a feature of G519's normally (although, I agree, fenders can be changed). Serge noted that the fender braces on the rear fender are also in the position associated with civilian bikes, but the green paint says it should be the original one.
He also noted the the green paint used is the later color, not the color associated with 1942 bikes.
However, the surveys of contracts for military equipment supplied during the war only mention 8 bicycles produced in 1945, all of them Schwinn tandems. But these were compiled and printed in May and September 1945, so it is possible a small production order in June 1945 was missed.
To conclude, as a June 1945 G519, It is a so far unique survivor, and by far the latest G519 known.
Why was it built? The war in Europe was over in May 1945, but it was considered that the war against Japan was about to be stepped up, and be long and costly.
The Hiroshima bomb was August 6th 1945, and Japan surrendered August 14th. Perhaps it was intended as part of a ramp up of production for the Japan war?
If I have missed something, let me know. Your thoughts are welcome.
Best Regards,
Adrian
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And will post pictures of the progress. Planning to Collab with Chris on this one, he can help me out with some parts 
here is the gate code on the Morrow hub apparently produced spring of 1945
