Hi to LIFE OF SCHWINN and all others,
A contact from Karate Chicken Industries gave me this link.
Here I see all the same issues I have seen with my frame on other forum pages that I started a few years back. I bought my frame/forks only on Ebay and imported it to New Zealand and started restoration.
There are a few aspects of these Schwinn frames to consider in mind, when Schwinn start building any frame they give it a serial number based on the date of starting as per their serial number format. Stamping of the number was one of the very first parts of the building process. If a frame is not completed due to a manufacturing problem the sequential number is relegated to a new frame.
Firstly I considered the Serial number for these frames to be based on the Chicago Schwinn format established in 1965 which is AA where the first A is January and the second A is 1965. Serial numbers are legally recognised for cycle identification. Schwinn months never included I for September as that is confused with the number 1. The result is that the last month of each year is M, the 13th letter in the alphabet. There is no year the letter O as N=1977 and P=1978 and Q=1979. That is very simple as the Serial number on my frame is BS367823. The letters represent the letter B (February) and S (1981) and the numbers appear to represent a sequential series of numbers for Schwinn frames started each year. There is a commonality of the number sequence increasing through a year related to the months.
When I checked my frame number at the time of buying it with the Schwinn Look up Tool site it was identified as February 1981. The completion date of the frame is given as a 4 digit number on the head badge. These frames where refuted to be sold as frame/fork only to those interested in an MTB frame and where not completed by Schwinn thus they did not receive a 4 digit completion date on the head badge. Schwinn did not sell MTB`s in the 1980`s, only ATB. This was due to a Company called Mountainbikes own by Fisher and Kelly thus they attempted to sue anybody who used the name Mountainbikes by any derivative. Not even Tom Richey who made frames for Mountainbikes could use the name in the USA although he did use it in Canada. Neither could other established manufacturers who made the first MTB frames in the 1970`s having been connected with Marin County could not use the name so thus it is very clear that Schwinn would not use MTB but ATB during the 1980`s. As is said often Schwinn never made MTB in the early 1980`s but from 1981 they sold Schwinn King Sting with serial number starting ASnnnnnn. I have seen a 1981 Schwinn Owners Operating ATB catalogue listing refers to King Sting 10, King Sting 5, King Sting, Side Winder 10, Side Winder 5, and Side Winder all 1981 models.
This same Schwinn Owners Operating ATB catalogue notes a Side Winder as SW1-9 GT502951 (July 1982 start) with a final completion date of 266 82
In respect to the 1981 frame in question the following information is provided
• Notes in the Schwinn Bicycles book as written on page 147 by Jay Pridmore and Jim Hurd “The Schwinn parts Division brought in some lugged mountain bike frames from Japan. But mostly Schwinn was leaving the new market to others. By 1984, the company came out with some higher performing mountain bikes, including the Sierra, also built in Asia”. Jay Pridmore is a professional writer but Jim Hurd was a respected Schwinn historian and director of the Schwinn Cycle museum in Chicago. I did try to contact Jim Hurd prior to his passing to no avail, I trust somebody else on the web site may know a little more about Jim Hurd.
• Reference has been made the 1981 version were sold as frame/fork setup only by the BMX parts department on Forum pages. I think my frame/forks are one of this product one of 9 at least I have seen. More explanation on this comment is needed, a contact with either of the authors would be appreciated. One of the frames, the same as mine is decaled made in Japan.
• Serial numbers for my frame Schwinn BS367823 and another frame being CS472494 and a few others similarly are stamped to the underside of the BB. This is not the prescribed location for Schwinn to stamped for this time period but in the recognised form of LLNNNNNN. The underside of the BB is a place that frames made in Japan can be located. I realise the Serial number marks the date of the frame production, not the selling date and whether the build was completed around the time is uncertain. I have been told by a Schwinn collector that he has seen a 4 year delay in selling a Schwinn cycle as new from its serial number to the final completion number. Schwinn Chicago production did stop in 1983. Most other frames do not have the SN and a final completion number as Schwinn did.
• The prescribed serial number layout for Japanese made frames and location is different for Schwinn US for this time period. The Japanese manufacturer of these frames is not known, but the tubing is Ishiwata, pre 1980. The head tube on my frame is a Schwinn Chicago badge, the factory closed in 1983 but the badge seems to also appear on until 1985 and 86 that I have been told Schwinn continued to use, although the factory had closed. It is also commented the forks originally came with a Unicrown fork much as a Tange TX1200 that is reported to have broken and then all were replaced with a cast fork crown of unknown manufacture and all the frames sold and in stock were replaced.
• These 2 serial numbers, BS367823 and CS472494 do fit an order of being made in 2 consecutive months by letter. They are also within the production number range of Schwinn cycles produced for the 2 consecutive months, not one of these months nor 3 months. I have no doubt they are correct. I have had one Ex Schwinn employee confirm the serial numbers are correct.
• Ishiwata tubing, steerer tube stamping on frame BS367823 is ISHIWATA 3.B. The Ishiwata catologue of pre 1980 includes the frame tubing produced as the MTB range. This type of tubing does not appear to in the post 1980 catalogue. By comparative measuring of my frame tubing, BS367823, it appears to be the Pre 1979 type Ishiwata MTB tubing. The 2 catalogues are not dated exactly but referred to a late 70`s and early 80`s.
• As an aside, Ishiwata being a pre WW2 company, this dating, 3.B, could be as per Japanese Imperial (Showa) calendar that 3 could represent 53rd year thus the date could be 1978 in the Julian calendar, I am trying to confirm this may be the case. This could be lost in translation and history. If the dating represents 1983 for the tubing the Ishiwata the dating could not be later than the frame manufacture start. The frame and fork I have do appear to be of the same time.
• The fork crown is unusual but is similar to what is used on a number of Japanese manufactured MTB frames of the period and also shows on the Trek 1983 850. My comparisons of fork tubing sizes from Ishiwata and Tange record they are different sizes and thus the actual fork crowns may not actually be the same production or time period. A photo I have seen of one of an imported Rocky Mountain Bicycles Ritchey MTB has the same distinctive faux bi-plane fork crowns as my Schwinn frame and the others above. The origin of these fork crowns may be separate to both Ishiwata and Tange but combined with both. I have tried to establish if Ishiwata used the Japanese Imprerial calendar that would use a number 4 for 1981.
• A 1983 Schwinn BMX catalogue page shows the frame being the same as BS367823 referring to the forks as Unifork Tange 141 fork set but BS367823 frame is clearly stamped as Ishiwata. I have not located details to Tange 141 forks but as I say above, may not be the same as the 1983 Tange fork blades that are not the same size as the Ishiwata fork blades.
This catalogue page clearly shows these frames, as my frame is, being different to other Schwinn ATB Sierra frames, King Sting frames, Sidewinder Cruiser frames of the period.
• It is to be considered the 1983 advertising of the frames put to print in 1982 could be the only time they were advertised from 1981, maybe a clearing out of old stock for a closed factory.
• The link to the Schwinn Parts and BMX departments is clearly staed and thus it is point to be clarified even if possible now. Also the comments by Jay Pridmore and Jim Hurd are very relevant.
• The SN is to me clearly the Schwinn US number and not a Japanese manufacturers SN number. Some commentators have drawn attention to the location of the number on the frame as not being the correct location for a US number and the particular letters and numbers indicate a date but they ignore the other letter and numbers. There has been a reference to the Asian Serial Number Guide but I question it being correct as the ASNG for the format used does not align with the Schwinn format as it I have seen ISnnnnnn being an ASNG number. I suspect Schwinn would not use a formatted number in 1983/4 that they had use in previous years due to the legality of serial numbers system. A contact with Bianche, Italy could not clarify the meaning of the ASNG nor could they name the Asian manufacturer. The ASNG writers does state they have no knowledge of what USA manufacturers used as Serial Number format and in my view the Schwinn 1981 legal format of MSnnnnnn does visually match the ASNG but the meaning is not the same.
• The SN found have been commented on representing many thousands of frames made using the ASNG number where the first number represents the year made whereas the Schwinn format indicates only a few months of 1981 manufacturing therefore lesser numbers made and allocated to ATB frames. If the number is taken as a Schwinn number there will be considerable gaps for other Schwinn frames, eg BMX, childrens bikes, road bikes etc filling in the gaps. There are not many of these frames about.
• I have measured and drawn my frame consider it very similar to a 1980 Beezer Off Road Bicycle frame that could have been copied by Schwinn. Or in fact any pre 1981 MTB frame.
• I have also compared my frame to a Specialised Stumpjumper, second series frame that mine is comparable with.
• Refer to this site
http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-classic/anybody-able-id-schwinn-frameset-69338.html
These frames are not common, even in 1981, and anybody with Schwinn knowledge could add clarification. My interest is to confirm what happened and the history of these frames,
Les
