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Need help IDing this '83 MTN bike

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Thanks Les,
I know it's Japanese. That's a good start. I think it's a Shogun, but can't find pics of early ones? I'm sure I'll figure it out. Whoever spray bombed this before me, liquid painted "Schwinn" on it. Not sure if that was a clue? I've never seen a Schwinn with this configuration? Still contemplating powder coat? It's such a cool bike, but 19" is a touch too small....
jd
 
jd
Did Shogun make early 80`s MTB or only mid 80`s ?. Schwinn did not MTB`s early, only ATB`s, at least that is what they said pre1983.
The Schwinn feather decal may still be available but watch the length. I had to get a second set as the first were too short.
I have looked at some images of Shogun MTB`s, similarities although I also see similarities to the second model of the Specialised Stumpjumper and the Merz MTB of 1981 both made in Japan with Lugged frames.
There is no database for Shogun but a range of SN and dates is below.
M9J20794 = 1979
M2E17125 = 1982
M3L93259 = 1983
N6B03345 = 1986
S985008 = 1989
S015083 = 1990
S005014 = 1990
S075128 = 1990
S145019 = 1991

It is stated the Shogun serial numbers follow the general pattern of most Asian bicycles with the second digit or number indicating the year but none has bbfor the 1980`s have 2 letters but had a month letter, number for year, a second letter? and 5 numbers followed. Not a match for our frames at all.

From the side the advertising images previously included from the Schwinn 1983 catalogues are of value. I contacted Gene at Genes` BMX and he said the publication cut off dates of the frame/forks would have been around August/September 1982 to make the printing dates for the 1982 Schwinn Christmas Catalogues that came out as the next year (1983) sales catalogue. That is what Schwinn did for advertising.
I have said that the 1981 Schwinn Chicago SN, month with S for the year (1981) followed by 6 numbers was used, absolutely true.
Below is a list of 1981 Schwinn SN format from GTs58 posting a while back commenting on the number of numbers on the SN that I had posted, 6 was too many and it should be 5 only. He has simply looked at the stars following the MS indicated as 5 as below, Google search Schwinn SN`s and you will see the number should be 6 as mine and your frame have. The list below is not correct for the stars indicating numbers.

(1981)​

JANUARY, ---------------------------- AS*****
FEBRUARY, -------------------------- BS*****
MARCH, ------------------------------- CS*****
APRIL, --------------------------------- DS*****
MAY, ----------------------------------- ES*****
JUNE, ---------------------------------- FS*****
JULY, ---------------------------------- GS*****
AUGUST, ----------------------------- HS*****
SEPTEMBER, ------------------------- JS*****
OCTOBER, --------------------------- KS*****
NOVEMBER, ------------------------- LS*****
DECEMBER, ------------------------- MS*****


Les
 
jd
Did Shogun make early 80`s MTB or only mid 80`s ?. Schwinn did not MTB`s early, only ATB`s, at least that is what they said pre1983.
The Schwinn feather decal may still be available but watch the length. I had to get a second set as the first were too short.
I have looked at some images of Shogun MTB`s, similarities although I also see similarities to the second model of the Specialised Stumpjumper and the Merz MTB of 1981 both made in Japan with Lugged frames.
There is no database for Shogun but a range of SN and dates is below.
M9J20794 = 1979
M2E17125 = 1982
M3L93259 = 1983
N6B03345 = 1986
S985008 = 1989
S015083 = 1990
S005014 = 1990
S075128 = 1990
S145019 = 1991

It is stated the Shogun serial numbers follow the general pattern of most Asian bicycles with the second digit or number indicating the year but none has bbfor the 1980`s have 2 letters but had a month letter, number for year, a second letter? and 5 numbers followed. Not a match for our frames at all.

From the side the advertising images previously included from the Schwinn 1983 catalogues are of value. I contacted Gene at Genes` BMX and he said the publication cut off dates of the frame/forks would have been around August/September 1982 to make the printing dates for the 1982 Schwinn Christmas Catalogues that came out as the next year (1983) sales catalogue. That is what Schwinn did for advertising.
I have said that the 1981 Schwinn Chicago SN, month with S for the year (1981) followed by 6 numbers was used, absolutely true.
Below is a list of 1981 Schwinn SN format from GTs58 posting a while back commenting on the number of numbers on the SN that I had posted, 6 was too many and it should be 5 only. He has simply looked at the stars following the MS indicated as 5 as below, Google search Schwinn SN`s and you will see the number should be 6 as mine and your frame have. The list below is not correct for the stars indicating numbers.

(1981)​

JANUARY, ---------------------------- AS*****
FEBRUARY, -------------------------- BS*****
MARCH, ------------------------------- CS*****
APRIL, --------------------------------- DS*****
MAY, ----------------------------------- ES*****
JUNE, ---------------------------------- FS*****
JULY, ---------------------------------- GS*****
AUGUST, ----------------------------- HS*****
SEPTEMBER, ------------------------- JS*****
OCTOBER, --------------------------- KS*****
NOVEMBER, ------------------------- LS*****
DECEMBER, ------------------------- MS*****


Les
Below is a list of 1981 Schwinn SN format from GTs58 posting a while back commenting on the number of numbers on the SN that I had posted, 6 was too many and it should be 5 only. He has simply looked at the stars following the MS indicated as 5 as below, Google search Schwinn SN`s and you will see the number should be 6 as mine and your frame have. The list below is not correct for the stars indicating numbers.


Please post a page link where I said that. I'm no rookie and what you said above must be a figment of your imagination. I checked every single one of my postings in reference to this topic and the Personal Messages that I sent to you to see where you may have been confused as to what I said. You are making up more misinformation just to keep yourself even more confused while you're running around in circles. 🤣
 
GTs58
From #36
GTs58 said:
The serial BS367823 was stamped in February 1983
Good point decoding. The BS367823 has 6 digits after BS, and not 5 digits as in the 1981 format database:
logo.og.png

Schwinn Serial Number Reference | All Things Schwinn

1948-1951 1952-1969 1970-1982
logo32x.png
thecabe.com
@GTs58 decode as 1983 is consistent with 1983 catalog listing of mountain bike frameset part 29-265 / 29-266

@Les, this new info suggests your frame is not 1981 and more likely the catalog frameset

Maybe I got that wrong in referring to you but you seemed to agreed in the posting #36 and as did The Cabe administration. Who notified them or asked the question.
I apologise for referring to you.
Why would Schwinn originally have in 1981 and a 1983, 2 separate frames with the same serial number, mine as a frame set and one as part of 1981 production identified by the S and the other as BS3 when both of these frames existed before August? 1982. Most of the Schwinn frame serial numbers have seen have 2 letters followed by 6 numbers in all 1981 and other years. Are all those frameset parts also or is the 1983 catalog listing short of a space identified by a star. I used the SN I have in the Schwinn Serial Numbers Tool and it comes up with February 1981 as the date for stamping the Serial number and the Bianche SN IS513786 is not accepted due to IS is not acceptable, as Schwinn never used I.
 
GTs58
From #36

Good point decoding. The BS367823 has 6 digits after BS, and not 5 digits as in the 1981 format database:
View attachment 1653414

Schwinn Serial Number Reference | All Things Schwinn

1948-1951 1952-1969 1970-1982
View attachment 1653415 thecabe.com
@GTs58 decode as 1983 is consistent with 1983 catalog listing of mountain bike frameset part 29-265 / 29-266

@Les, this new info suggests your frame is not 1981 and more likely the catalog frameset

Maybe I got that wrong in referring to you but you seemed to agreed in the posting #36 and as did The Cabe administration. Who notified them or asked the question.
I apologise for referring to you.
Why would Schwinn originally have in 1981 and a 1983, 2 separate frames with the same serial number, mine as a frame set and one as part of 1981 production identified by the S and the other as BS3 when both of these frames existed before August? 1982. Most of the Schwinn frame serial numbers have seen have 2 letters followed by 6 numbers in all 1981 and other years. Are all those frameset parts also or is the 1983 catalog listing short of a space identified by a star. I used the SN I have in the Schwinn Serial Numbers Tool and it comes up with February 1981 as the date for stamping the Serial number and the Bianche SN IS513786 is not accepted due to IS is not acceptable, as Schwinn never used I.

The serial on your frame is not a "Schwinn" serial number and the frame is not a Schwinn made frame and it is not a Schwinn approved frame. These two catalog frames that Schwinn sold in 1983 were obviously made by another manufacturer and your frame does not have a Schwinn serial number, but it still decodes to 1983. Read the red print at the bottom left of this 83 catalog page. Frame #2 was undoubtedly made by Murray. Schwinn supplied Murray with Schwinn made parts in 1983 like the head tubes that were pre-stamped with serial numbers and possibly the stamped out rear drop outs.
On the Giant made Schwinns, Giant used their SN format of 4 digits following the letter G. That was the date and then there was just a serial number. They did stamp the Schwinn head badges also with the actual build date.

1656392536004.png
 
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GTs58

I have always understood the frame was not made by Schwinn but is Japanese, but who? Were they ordered by Schwinn, then made for Schwinn then, sold by Schwinn thus a form of approval has happened and the frame is badged as a Schwinn, but that does not concern me particularly. The frame/forks as the unicrown image and the general Lugged frame do compare with other Japanese made MTB frames.

Your comments of my serial number includes 6 number spaces and it must only have 5 number spaces to be a Schwinn SN and is therefore mt SN is a Schwinn SN and say this is incorrect to be a Schwinn Serial number. I did apologised for the comments I made but somehow what you have shown is the Schwinn lightweight Data book on the format page you included is not correct either. As per Bob Hufford`s Schwinn Lightweight Data book it is written as 5 OR 6 sequential digits (numbers after 2 letters). This relates to different years listed but do not include 1981 exactly.

As somebody has said no frame production occurred at the Chicago plant in February 1981, although assembly continued. Does the SN indicate they were “assembled” in February 1981 to be a complete frame/forks for the Catalog listing of mountain bike frameset part 29-265 / 29-266.

As James Hurd did say the frames came in from Japan in 1981 by the Part Department and could they have then been called a Catalogue item that was assembled by the Part Department.

The Catalog listing of mountain bike frameset part 29-265 / 29-266, are said by thecabe.com having been confirmed as the actual frames/forks that I have.
Does this close the loop,

Les
 
If all this confusion is stemmed from James Hurd saying these frames were imported in 1981, I'd really have to dismiss anything he has written or said about the subject. In that Marketing video of Richard Schwinn, Richard said that Schwinn put away all the toys and they didn't make bikes during the war, only Columbia made bikes during the war. HAHA!

So when Schwinn was buying bikes from Japan they showed up with the letter S in the serial numbers. When decoding the SN, the S was not a factor in the dating of the serial number. So when these MB frames that came from Japan showed up they had the S in the serial number but placed in a different position. Delete that S in the serial and the date decodes to 1983 when these frames were made and imported. I'm betting Hurd was mixed up and was actually talking about the early Sidewinder production in 1981 that was supposedly not advertised. All these early sidewinder pieces were painted white and they had (MR) December 1980 stamped head tubes that were made during the strike.

The discussion..............


Edit: Did I ever mention that Schwinn's serial numbers were stamped on the bikes component prior to any frame building using that SN stamped component? There are no records of when a Schwinn frame was built, but it was definitely sometime after the date the serial number was stamped. The Serials stamped on Schwinn's imported bikes and frames are not stamped by Schwinn and cannot be decoded as an actual Schwinn stamped serial number that was being used at that time. Looks like these imported frames used the same format as an old Schwinn SN format prior to the two letter format for the month and year. Just delete the S from the equation as you would on the 70's Panasonic serials for Schwinn. BS367823........ B for Feb and the 3 for the year. Disregarding what Hurd said since there is nothing to back that up would be my suggestion since those that are supposed to know get confused sometimes.
 
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