Schwinn and the Sturmey-Archer SW.

[Oken]

I think we need someone outside of the restricted US internet to shed some light on the relation of Steyr/Styria/¿Styre?, any thoughts on the subject @Oken ? Sorry to put you on the spot, but you seem to have studied a fair amount of hubs, especially the ones where we don't always have access to their information. Thanks in advance!

Before reading this thread, I knew nothing about the Scintilla and Styria (by Steyr Austro Daimler Puch) hubs. And using a few European language search words like "nabe" and "nav" instead of "hub" do not really result in much more than you have already found. Styria also made a copy of the F&S Torpedo, but that's not a big revelation/surprise as everyone did that especially after the patent expired.
Maybe this is mildly useful.

 

[SirMike1983]

The Sears Chief is the best-known bike that used the Model S widely. Cycle Manufacturing and Supply Co. of Chicago got a license for production in the US from Sturmey Archer. King Sewing Machine provided the factory. The hub could be purchased as a freestanding part, and was advertised in period magazines, including Popular Mechanics, as being something that could be added to any bicycle. It was often called the "3-speed coaster hub" rather than the "Model S" in the ads. The Model S, in fact, was a Model FN tricoaster manufactured in the USA. Hub shells call it the "Tricoaster". The ads indicated that all the "big" bicycle makers were using them, but that sounds like exaggeration more than anything else. A Cycle Mfg & Supply ad from early 1915 indicates Columbia, Rambler, Tribune, Cleveland, Crescent, Monarch, Dayton, and Excelsior were all using them. Sears was using them as well. But that also strikes me as somewhat exaggerating the usage in the USA. Most American-made bicycles were still single speed coaster brake items.

 

[WillWork4Parts]

Before reading this thread, I knew nothing about the Scintilla and Styria (by Steyr Austro Daimler Puch) hubs. And using a few European language search words like "nabe" and "nav" instead of "hub" do not really result in much more than you have already found. Styria also made a copy of the F&S Torpedo, but that's not a big revelation/surprise as everyone did that especially after the patent expired.
Maybe this is mildly useful.

This definitely helps, as it shows the Styria hub was produced in 1956(at least according to the seller) with Steyr/Daimler/Puch on the label...AND it shows the shifter that is the same oval shape as the Schwinn Approved shifter. Thanks again!!

Now, I still question who made this baseball diamond shaped shifter...? As it isn't stamped Made in Austria like the other.

 

[Miq]

@SirMike1983 I saw this earlier Oct 1914 Bicycle World Magazine article/ad on Pope Manufacturing equipping some of their 1915 bikes with Sturmey Archer 3-Speed hubs. This lines up with the King Sewing Machine announcement you posted above. They had to keep the 850 factory men busy breathing in the "pure, fresh air" of Buffalo NY.

@Oilit I noticed on the Sturmey heritage site they show the SW introduction in 1954. Wondered if Tony H writing that “the board approved the changeover from AW to SW production commencing on 1 April, 1956” was due to the issues they saw in the initial design. 2 years is a considerable difference. ??

The Sturmey heritage site is also showing this as a 1954 advertisement for the SW but this must be really late in 54 becasue the price list published in Oct does not show the SW for sale.

Then I looked at this Sturmey Newsletter from May 1955. It mentions "another production test" run of 1000 hubs would be undertaken after a slight modification to the SW. "We are continuing to test out the new hub but in the event of it being added to the range, ample warning will be given to all sections of the trade" Mid 1955 and they are still testing it out.

The October 1955 Price List shown in the September Newsletter does not list the SW hub.

Then this ad in the Nov 1956 CTC Gazette for the "New SW"

2 years of development and testing after you first advertized the product is not good.

 

[Oilit]

@SirMike1983 I saw this earlier Oct 1914 Bicycle World Magazine article/ad on Pope Manufacturing equipping some of their 1915 bikes with Sturmey Archer 3-Speed hubs. This lines up with the King Sewing Machine announcement you posted above. They had to keep the 850 factory men busy breathing in the "pure, fresh air" of Buffalo NY.

View attachment 2277131


@Oilit I noticed on the Sturmey heritage site they show the SW introduction in 1954. Wondered if Tony H writing that “the board approved the changeover from AW to SW production commencing on 1 April, 1956” was due to the issues they saw in the initial design. 2 years is a considerable difference. ??
View attachment 2277136
The Sturmey heritage site is also showing this as a 1954 advertisement for the SW but this must be really late in 54 becasue the price list published in Oct does not show the SW for sale.
View attachment 2277143

Then I looked at this Sturmey Newsletter from May 1955. It mentions "another production test" run of 1000 hubs would be undertaken after a slight modification to the SW. "We are continuing to test out the new hub but in the event of it being added to the range, ample warning will be given to all sections of the trade" Mid 1955 and they are still testing it out.
View attachment 2277151

The October 1955 Price List shown in the September Newsletter does not list the SW hub.
View attachment 2277152

Then this ad in the Nov 1956 CTC Gazette for the "New SW"
View attachment 2277156

2 years of development and testing after you first advertized the product is not good.

2 years of development and testing and the problems still weren't fixed! What surprised me was that they started the changeover in April but then they were still making the AW in October. It sounds like somebody knew they still had problems, but what were they telling the board?
"It is confidently expected that this modification will eliminate any cause for complaint in performance." (From the Sturmey-Archer News you posted above, May 1955, announcing the second? trial run). OK then, bud.

 

[Oilit]

@SirMike1983 I saw this earlier Oct 1914 Bicycle World Magazine article/ad on Pope Manufacturing equipping some of their 1915 bikes with Sturmey Archer 3-Speed hubs. This lines up with the King Sewing Machine announcement you posted above. They had to keep the 850 factory men busy breathing in the "pure, fresh air" of Buffalo NY.

View attachment 2277131


@Oilit I noticed on the Sturmey heritage site they show the SW introduction in 1954. Wondered if Tony H writing that “the board approved the changeover from AW to SW production commencing on 1 April, 1956” was due to the issues they saw in the initial design. 2 years is a considerable difference. ??
View attachment 2277136
The Sturmey heritage site is also showing this as a 1954 advertisement for the SW but this must be really late in 54 becasue the price list published in Oct does not show the SW for sale.
View attachment 2277143

Then I looked at this Sturmey Newsletter from May 1955. It mentions "another production test" run of 1000 hubs would be undertaken after a slight modification to the SW. "We are continuing to test out the new hub but in the event of it being added to the range, ample warning will be given to all sections of the trade" Mid 1955 and they are still testing it out.
View attachment 2277151

The October 1955 Price List shown in the September Newsletter does not list the SW hub.
View attachment 2277152

Then this ad in the Nov 1956 CTC Gazette for the "New SW"
View attachment 2277156

2 years of development and testing after you first advertized the product is not good.

I notice that the 1954 ad also shows the new smaller lighter "Flick" trigger control. Both of my Schwinns with the SW have this control so I'm guessing they were introduced together. But 1954 sounds very early, especially when my 1956 Corvette still has the older style with the window.

 

[WillWork4Parts]

After reading more literature boasting about the smaller size, I have a question. Since this SW hub is 1/2" smaller in diameter, is the shell also a different width at the flanges?? @SirMike1983 , @Oilit , it sounds like you might have swapped a few SWs to AWs, are the spoke lengths different?
I'm just trying to imagine how this 2 year testing phase went... even if I were offered the hub for free, after busting my knee on the stem/bars a few times, I'd be looking at swapping back to my original hub. Having to change spokes would be another deterrent for swapping to/from an SW hub. Hopefully their engineers compensated for the diameter change with a different width, so that the spoke length stayed the same.

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

After reading more literature boasting about the smaller size, I have a question. Since this SW hub is 1/2" smaller in diameter, is the shell also a different width at the flanges?? @SirMike1983 , it sounds like you have swapped a few SWs to AWs, are the spoke lengths different?
I'm just trying to imagine how this 2 year testing phase went... even if I were offered the hub for free, after busting my knee on the stem/bars a few times, I'd be looking at swapping back to my original hub. Having to change spokes would be another deterrent for swapping to/from an SW hub. Hopefully their engineers compensated for the diameter change with a different width, so that the spoke length stayed the same.

All good questions. I was not involved in the late testing program. As a bicycle dealer during this time period I cannot ever remember building a wheel with used spokes. If your changing a rim, or a hub, the first thing you did was cut out the spokes. Ok, maybe it was the second thing after breaking loose the threaded freewheel. Keep in mind labor was maybe $1.00/hr and it was still “cut them out”. John

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

After reading more literature boasting about the smaller size, I have a question. Since this SW hub is 1/2" smaller in diameter, is the shell also a different width at the flanges?? @SirMike1983 , @Oilit , it sounds like you might have swapped a few SWs to AWs, are the spoke lengths different?
I'm just trying to imagine how this 2 year testing phase went... even if I were offered the hub for free, after busting my knee on the stem/bars a few times, I'd be looking at swapping back to my original hub. Having to change spokes would be another deterrent for swapping to/from an SW hub. Hopefully their engineers compensated for the diameter change with a different width, so that the spoke length stayed the same.

The same length would have worked but it was several times longer to disassemble a wheel by unscrewing the nipples compared to cutting the spokes out. Good wheel builder can lace and spoke a wheel in less than five minutes. Bicycle shops used special bits on a drill to pull up and pre-true a wheel. The entire labor time credited back to the dealer was maybe half an hour, or less than one U. S. Postage Stamp today, LOL. John

 

[SirMike1983]

Spoke length does not change so long as you are going from a cross-4 pattern to another cross-4 pattern. Raleigh ran 40 x4 at that time. The Schwinn wheels generally 36 x4 for the lightweights. The x4 pattern reduces the effect of the hub flange on the spoke length needed. With x2 or x3 wheels, you'd probably need a different length spoke.

The one saving grace is the SW debacle took place in the time before extensive mass tort litigation. The SW's failure mode can be particularly dangerous because it can suddenly "let go". If the rider is standing on the pedals to sprint or climb up a steep hill, that often means a trip over the handlebars and then to the hospital. If the rider is lucky, there will be a feeling of looseness in the drive train just before the hub cams out of gear. This offers a chance to lay off the pressure and allow the hub to cam out without disrupting the rider too much. I've been lucky enough that every time an SW has failed on me, I noticed that brief "loose" feeling in the drive train and laid off the pedals just before it let go. I'm sure there are SW hubs still out there that work properly, but I just will not trust one of these hubs given the failures I've experienced with them. I've tried to make them work (short of adding the springs mentioned on Sheldon's site), but I've given up on them.

The cam-out can happen from so many different causes that these hubs can be very frustrating. If the oil is too thick (including if it thickens due to cold weather), the pawls will not seat properly. Old gunk in the hubs also prevents the pawls from seating. If the pawls are worn, they may not engage properly even if they seat. If the cog is changed to a larger cog, the increased force can exacerbate a borderline hub where the pawls may or may not seat properly.

I generally remove the SW hubs by unscrewing the spoke nipples and saving the old spokes, if possible. Sometimes you need a "faded" old spoke to fix a wheel and you don't want a single, shiny spoke on the wheel. Sometimes they're too rusty or damaged to save though. I have no issue re-using old spokes if they're in good shape, especially the Raleigh stainless "R" spokes, which were kind of marvel of durability in their day.