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The "HOLY GRAIL" of Schwinn MTB frames!
- Thread starter Xlobsterman
- Start date
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GTs58
I'm the Wiz, and nobody beats me!
I can't believe you're still beating your head on the desktop over this serial number topic after everyone has tried to inform you! These serial numbers are not Schwinn numbers and like you said they don't match the standard Asian format either. They are a specialized format with the S thrown in for some reason that only the manufacturer may know for sure why, but us collectors believe it was used to indicate the frame was built for Schwinn. This abnormal serial numbering system actually started in 1974 when Schwinn outsourced the new model Le Tour in 1974. These serial numbers did not match any of Schwinn's formats, and because they contained the letter S before the Asian serial numbering format, they don't match the Asian format either. Also during that time it had no bearing when dating a Panasonic Schwinn since the S was just omitted/overlooked from the serial when dating the number. The Schwinn head badges were also stamped with the actual build date. So on these catalog frames the manufacturer just relocated the letter S between the month letter and the first number that was for the year. Simple simple simple. Lets give up this over thinking on this subject before you go totally nuts.
I truly believe the S was just an indication that the frame/bike was built for Schwinn. Now how simple is that?
SD400001 = D400001 April 1974.
BS300001 = B300001 Feb. 1983.
Xlobsterman
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
It is really hard to confirm if the serial numbers have any date code integrated into them without any documentation from Schwinn! As it is now, we can only speculate that, since it is very similar to the Chicago date codes with 2 letters and 6 numbers.
There seems to be a very limited, and short production run of these particular frames from Japan. But the frame design did carry over to the 84 & 85 models that came out of Taiwan as full production bikes, but they were a lower quality non lugged frame.
Xlobsterman
Cruisin' on my Bluebird
I am not sure what your point is? Please explain a little more clearly as to what you are trying to say!
Arthur Roy Brown
Look Ma, No Hands!
That he's sure he is wrong?
If someone had wanted to spec 650 wheels on the frameset and the proper alpha character applied to "650" would fit the frameset, they probably could have done so.
What a fantastic find! Being someone who is both a Schwinn Geek and rider of mountain bikes since that era, I'd have to agree that these framesets are the Holy Grail of Schwinn badged MTBs.
In regards to manufacturer, a previous poster mentioned the tubesets for the frame coming from Ishiwata and the Ishiwata made forks seem to be a common factor in these framesets. During that time frame, Ishiwata was fabricating framesets for Bianchi and that has always left me wondering if Schwinn may have jumped ship from Panasonic for the fabrication of these. I'd tend to agree with other notions that unless someone from the Head Shed at Schwinn who was involved in this chimes in, it'll be an eternal guessing game.
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Arthur Roy Brown
Look Ma, No Hands!
The frameset MTBs had different geometry than the Taiwan-Built frames. The top tube is much longer and sizing is different. IIRC, the different geometry became a selling point after the advent of the Taiwan built bikes. I know that some of the framesets were still being sold new and were built up by shops as late as 1985.
I think that may be true. The Ross bikes of that time (ie, Mt. Hood, St Helens etc) were also made of Ishiwata tubing
GTs58, Well your same old story as mine is.
Firstly Schwinn in 1981 made up to 999999 cycle frames with S after the Month A to M. That followed the Chicago format. The proof of this being applicable is accepting 1981.
Bikes made in the USA also have a number stamped onto the head badge. First three digits are the ordinal day and last digit is the year. 0409 is the 40th day of 1979. This is the date the bike was assembled. The MTB frames we have were sold as frame/fork only and not completed.
Elsewhere with the Asian Serial Number Guide the Month (A to L) followed by the S followed by the year that I consider was for one year in the 80s decade, 1 to 9 followed by the sequential serial number. The S indicates Asian made for other cycle suppliers. No indication is given who the manufacturers were in the ASNG. Although the ASNG and the Schwinn SN formats appear to be the same they are not in meaning.
I consider the ASNG cannot apply to the frames we have.
By what you sent Schwinn Le Tour and Super Le Tour models SOMETIME began with an "S" followed by the month A to M then the year last digit followed by the Japanese sequential SN. BUT THEY DON’T SAY THEY USED AN S IN THE SECOND PLACE, ONLY THE FIRST.
Japan Made numbering system : Letter is the month, number in the first or second position is the Year. NO S is used. Only one letter with numbers
Schwinn Le Tour were made as below in various locations in the USA, 1980 – Chicago, USA, 1981 – Japan, 1982, 1983, 1984 – Mississippi, USA.
As others are saying somebody from Schwinn at the time needs to explain all this.
One old comment made regarding Schwinn is that they did not get involved with MTB but that was due to Fisher/Kelly company Mountainbikes having an hold on the name so Schwinn used All Terrain Bikes particularly with the KING Sting range from 1980. This to me indicates Schwinn was interested at a low level more to suit youth getting involved with ATB and keeping them as Schwinn customers.
Below are a few printed reference to Schwinn MTB frames from 1982 referring to up coming 1983 MTB but that does not mean they were made earlier.
Les
Firstly Schwinn in 1981 made up to 999999 cycle frames with S after the Month A to M. That followed the Chicago format. The proof of this being applicable is accepting 1981.
Bikes made in the USA also have a number stamped onto the head badge. First three digits are the ordinal day and last digit is the year. 0409 is the 40th day of 1979. This is the date the bike was assembled. The MTB frames we have were sold as frame/fork only and not completed.
Elsewhere with the Asian Serial Number Guide the Month (A to L) followed by the S followed by the year that I consider was for one year in the 80s decade, 1 to 9 followed by the sequential serial number. The S indicates Asian made for other cycle suppliers. No indication is given who the manufacturers were in the ASNG. Although the ASNG and the Schwinn SN formats appear to be the same they are not in meaning.
I consider the ASNG cannot apply to the frames we have.
By what you sent Schwinn Le Tour and Super Le Tour models SOMETIME began with an "S" followed by the month A to M then the year last digit followed by the Japanese sequential SN. BUT THEY DON’T SAY THEY USED AN S IN THE SECOND PLACE, ONLY THE FIRST.
Japan Made numbering system : Letter is the month, number in the first or second position is the Year. NO S is used. Only one letter with numbers
Schwinn Le Tour were made as below in various locations in the USA, 1980 – Chicago, USA, 1981 – Japan, 1982, 1983, 1984 – Mississippi, USA.
As others are saying somebody from Schwinn at the time needs to explain all this.
One old comment made regarding Schwinn is that they did not get involved with MTB but that was due to Fisher/Kelly company Mountainbikes having an hold on the name so Schwinn used All Terrain Bikes particularly with the KING Sting range from 1980. This to me indicates Schwinn was interested at a low level more to suit youth getting involved with ATB and keeping them as Schwinn customers.
Below are a few printed reference to Schwinn MTB frames from 1982 referring to up coming 1983 MTB but that does not mean they were made earlier.
Les
J wagon
The SN stamp is the confusion as Schwinn used the Chicago SN format from 1965 until 1983 where the first letter means month A to M excluding I and the second letter is A to U ie1965 to 1983 excluding I and O. I searched the Schwinn serial number lookup tool and it recognised BS as February 1981. Understanding Schwinn`s concern at being sued how would they allow in 1981 BSnnnnnn to be used and then in 1983 BS3nnnnnn to be used again. As I have said there are other frames the same with CS4nnnnn and KS3nnnnn being used. With Japanese numbers the first number is given as a year and S is given as a Asian made.
This S also gets confused with the Le Tour S in the SN first place or the ASNG S in the second place. These frames are stated as originating in 1981 when the uni crown forks failed and broke and were replaced. These frames where first shown by Schwinn in October 1982 but could have originated in 1981
Les
The SN stamp is the confusion as Schwinn used the Chicago SN format from 1965 until 1983 where the first letter means month A to M excluding I and the second letter is A to U ie1965 to 1983 excluding I and O. I searched the Schwinn serial number lookup tool and it recognised BS as February 1981. Understanding Schwinn`s concern at being sued how would they allow in 1981 BSnnnnnn to be used and then in 1983 BS3nnnnnn to be used again. As I have said there are other frames the same with CS4nnnnn and KS3nnnnn being used. With Japanese numbers the first number is given as a year and S is given as a Asian made.
This S also gets confused with the Le Tour S in the SN first place or the ASNG S in the second place. These frames are stated as originating in 1981 when the uni crown forks failed and broke and were replaced. These frames where first shown by Schwinn in October 1982 but could have originated in 1981
Les
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