Verification of model year change

[AS-1]

And thats exactly my point.

I got your point. I was just doubling down.

 

[GTs58]

Then why even bother putting a date code in the SN? Its just the same old bike. At some point Schwinn had to say this year ends here and the new year begins.
There are 62 Typhoons (one year frame) with a 61 date code.
There are 62 KSA's with a 61 date code. But everyone has agreed they must be 62's because that was the first year.
@GTs58
You just pushed for the change saying the late 64's KSHD's were actually 65's.
At some point the year had to change.

The serial number stampings on a Schwinn are not date codes, build dates or anything else. They are just simple serial numbers that were intended to be used for identification of ownership and for Schwinn's warranty purposes. It's great that we have a date that the serial was stamped, but it's not a date code for a finished product. If it was a microwave oven, the manufacture would have a date for that serial number and could tell you when and where that product was produced and it's specifications. One of the first things I did when I got into this hobby was to find out why everyone was giving me misinformation on the year of my bikes. For well over a decade I've been saying that the serial numbers are not related to the build dates and once you know about Schwinn's production practices it's all real simple. A serial is stamped on the bike's part. Sometime later it was used to build a frame and then the frame went thru the production process. The only other reference to that serial number was when a dealer logged it in his book of sold units and on the customers receipt.
It is very common for any Schwinn to have a previous year Oct. Nov. Dec. serial number. That was the beginning of the productions yearly transition time with the parts being made. I have multiple L1 Nov. 27, 1961 Corvette 5 speeds on the registry and all of them are 1962 models with many of them being built with 1962 dated cranks. The 62 models also have some different build details and specs than the 61 models. To correctly date a Schwinn you not only use the serial number, but you also have to use the paint colors, equipped, decals, model name etc.. The KSHD was a one year only model, 1965. If you have one with a late 1964 stamped serial number, it's still a 1965 model and it was most likely built in 1965.

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

Everything you're saying makes sense but I'm pretty sure I've seen lots of sales adds with santa bringing the new model or what I really want the new Schwinn or Johnny got the new schwinn.

Schwinn produced an ad mat catalog for dealers to use. The dealer could use the clip art of any bicycle he wanted to advertise in his area. As long as the dealer's advertising met Schwinn's requirements (basically the federal "truth in advertising" laws) his ad qualified for a 50% Schwinn Co-op credit. The dealers co-op account amount was based on his annual purchases. The annual ad mat catalog was usually sent out in the spring, it was usually late because it was not a priority.

John

 

[Rusty Klunker]

I have multiple L1 Nov. 27, 1961 Corvette 5 speeds on the registry and all of them are 1962 models with many of them being built with 1962 dated cranks.

A Nov 61 stamping for a 62 model bike.... hmmm sounding familiar.
I've never questioned stamp date as build date and yes I understand dating through other parts.

The KSHD was a one year only model, 1965. If you have one with a late 1964 stamped serial number, it's still a 1965 model and it was most likely built in 1965.

I started this thread because I didn't want to clutter someone else's bike thread.

Are you sure it was a one year model? AS-1 presented documentation to order a 66 model. You immediate said it was printed after tbe KSHD was discontinued. Was it? We're using these documents to prove things aren't we?
We have two late 65 SN's, one we will never know the other might enlighten us but still could be a 66 model.

To the mods, sorry this wasn't my intention and certainly didn't expect this. ... Thought I might have found something.

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

I realize that the hand built Paramounts were a whole different ballgame, but I had Waterford do a couple of provenance reports for me on some older frames, and was surprised how accurate the records were.
They knew the exact build day, and even had the day it went to paint.
The dealer order specifications and when it was delivered.
Pretty cool, but those records only went back to late 1958/59 when the production was moved in house from Wastyn.
I’ve always wondered if Wastyn has any of the previous records dating back to 1937?
Wouldn’t that be a treasure trove?

Paramounts were a different animal all together. They were built one at a time, everyone was a custom build, a bike that a dealer had custom ordered, it was usually "already sold to a retail customer". Having a simplified way of tracking the order from credit approval to the paperwork design to the frame build, to the paint shop, to the assembly with custom parts, to the actual shipping documents was very important. They were never shipped with the dealer's bicycle orders, always separately. If a dealer called Schwinn, they needed to have a way to find the order and tell the dealer of the current status. That's basically why they (Richard Schwinn) had the information of the Paramounts built at Schwinn. I'm sure they likely had a paperwork system to track the Wastyn built Paramounts but it's been lost in time and was not likely important to anyone "after the bikes were built and shipped". I agree, that would be a pretty cool find.

John

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

John explained the business end of situation during the year end and year beginning pretty well.
The production number of finished units dropped during the end of the year due to holidays with factory shut downs and the Dec. retooling for the new year's production. The serial numbers actually tell you very little and the dates associated with the serial numbers is the date that part was stamped with a serial number and the making of the parts was pretty much an ongoing job all thru the year. The serial stamped part was later used to build a frame and there is no record of when the frame was built or when the actual product was finished, until 1976 when the actual build dates were stamped in the headbadge. If you look at the serial number lists, you can see when these "parts" were made. During the strike in 1980 there were no bikes being manufactured but there were parts being made. During the strike over 900,000 MR serial numbered head tubes were made (using known examples for reference) but none of them were used until after the strike when the production began. These MR serial head tubes were used throughout the 1981 production and on the catalog frames that were sold separately. They have even shown up on a few 1982 models.

Over the years Schwinn produce a few different models as promotional pieces prior to the Christmas season and those are the ones that were produced for Christmas sales, but there was a pretty limited supply. A couple examples would be the 1950 Phantom, 1958 Tornado and the prewar Z models. The 57 Jaguar was another example. The new 1954 Jaguar was announced as ready for immediate delivery in the Oct Reporter but that probably never happened in 1953. All the early known Jags have
had 1954 SA hubs.

View attachment 1939676
In many cases you can look at a bike and see it was built to the new year specifications if there were changes from one year to the next, and in some examples you will see that they have a serial number that was stamped in Oct. Nov. and Dec. of the previous year. I'm sure the production process of the new year models started in the previous year, but as far as a finished/boxed up unit is unknown. A few Schwinn Dealers that I know have said that the new year models were shipped out around the second week of January. Maybe John has some input as to when the new year models were shipped out to dealers or the distribution centers.

GT, Let me say first that this may not answer your question, but you and others have asked so many questions it's hard to keep track, sorry.

Schwinn Bicycle Company had what they called Drop Ship orders and also Pool Car Orders that came directly from Chicago to the Dealer(s). These orders did not go into an independent jobber like Chicago Cycle Supply, or Harry Wilson Sales Agency (Los Angeles). The Pool Orders were a way for the smaller dealers to combine their unit orders into a single shipment with other dealers in order to fill a railroad box car which held between 250 to 300 units depending on the model mix of different sized boxes. The freight cost was less than shipping the bikes by truck, the entire freight cost was the dealer's responsibility, so they were very keen to this expense saving.

The dealer also had the option to place "fill in orders" to be shipped from his Schwinn Jobber, or later these independent jobbers were consolidated into the four (Schwinn owned) Schwinn Sales Companies, West, Midwest, South, and East. The cost of a Chicago built model was higher if it was purchased from a Jobber/Sales Company, but the bikes still had to sell for the same Fair Trade retail price. Needless to say, dealers only purchased Chicago models from Chicago unless it was an urgent issue.

The Jobbers/Sales Companies were just like Schwinn Dealers, they placed their bike orders into the same system that Jack Smith ran. The orders were filled "first in, first shipped". Here's where it gets a little confusing. More and more of Schwinn's sales volume shifted to imported models from Japan, and Tiawan. Then the factory shut down during the 1980 strike, and even more sourcing was shifted to additional offshore factories. This shift put a strain on the sales company's size which were originally designed to only "fill in" dealer inventories for an emergency, the higher dealer cost pricing was not an accident, it was designed to encourage Chicago ordering. The Schwinn Sales West location was moved from an 80,000-foot building in the City of Industry to a 127,000-foot building in Rancho Cucamonga. The new building also had a higher ceiling height to allow for improved warehouse racking. We were handling (receiving and shipping) 250,000 bikes per year out of that building, plus a very high volume of parts. This is where the former Chicago built models ended up. They were coming in 53' offshore shipping containers being unloaded every day. Our rule was if the container hit our dock, it had to be unloaded before closing time to prevent container theft.

You mention the large number of "MR" serial number head tubes being made some time around the UAW Strike. It's my opinion, I have nothing to prove it, but I do not believe that Schwinn thought that the UAW strike would ever be settled. They just could not afford the additional labor expense added to an already antiquated factory. It's my opinion the head tubes, Schwinn crank hangers, and fork ends were made to be shipped to secondary builders like Murray of Ohio (factory in Tennessee) for fabrication into electro forged Schwinn frames. You will find this happened eventually even though the strike was settled. The Chicago factory never fully recovered after that strike. Schwinn's factory production workers were the highest paid bicycle work force in the country, but the UAW wanted their pay to match the UAW auto workers. It was the end of Schwinn's built in Chicago. A sad day in the Schwinn history books.

John

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

What was the time span from order date to delivery date?

In normal years (not the bike boom years) it ran 60-90 days lead time, if I remember correctly.

John

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

I'm sure Tax and audit time plays a part too.

Good point. I do remember times (in Arizona) when we had to pay a tax on all of our actual inventory, and my dad would curtail his ordering for several months to run down the total inventory valuation amount to reduce his tax owed.

John

 

[GTs58]

A Nov 61 stamping for a 62 model bike.... hmmm sounding familiar.
I've never questioned stamp date as build date and yes I understand dating through other parts.


I started this thread because I didn't want to clutter someone else's bike thread.

Are you sure it was a one year model? AS-1 presented documentation to order a 66 model. You immediate said it was printed after tbe KSHD was discontinued. Was it? We're using these documents to prove things aren't we?
We have two late 65 SN's, one we will never know the other might enlighten us but still could be a 66 model.

To the mods, sorry this wasn't my intention and certainly didn't expect this. ... Thought I might have found something.

The 1966 contradicting printed documents raises a big red flag with only a price sheet for January 66 showing the KSHD. Not all the October serial stamped numbers were used on the next years models. Actually, a very small percentage of them that I have actually seen and noted. The November numbers are a hit and miss depending on the time of the month those serial numbers were stamped. No question a very late Nov or Dec serial numbered drop out was used on a new year model. Schwinn very well could have produced a few KSHD frames in Nov. 65 before a model discontinued noticed was released. There is only one 1963 Corvette 5 speed known to exist, and it has a Nov. 30 1962 serial number. These were discontinued after 1962 and the last ones produced had the J September serial numbers. If the KSHD was not discontinued after 1965, where are the Dec 65 and later pieces?

Here's a piece of Schwinn's printed literature. Two models that Schwinn supposedly never produced.

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

The 1966 contradicting printed documents raises a big red flag with only a price sheet for January 66 showing the KSHD. Not all the October serial stamped numbers were used on the next years models. Actually, a very small percentage of them that I have actually seen and noted. The November numbers are a hit and miss depending on the time of the month those serial numbers were stamped. No question a very late Nov or Dec serial numbered drop out was used on a new year model. Schwinn very well could have produced a few KSHD frames in Nov. 65 before a model discontinued noticed was released. There is only one 1963 Corvette 5 speed known to exist, and it has a Nov. 30 1962 serial number. These were discontinued after 1962 and the last ones produced had the J September serial numbers. If the KSHD was not discontinued after 1965, where are the Dec 65 and later pieces?

Here's a piece of Schwinn's printed literature. Two models that Schwinn supposedly never produced.

View attachment 1939851

I have never seen, never worked on, never heard anything about these two Schwinn bikes.

The first derailer bike we ever had for sale in our store was a 26" wheel, Sky Blue "conventional" 8 speed Varsity with the suicide shifter.

John