Early 1900's National Cycle Manufacturing bicycle

[Rambler]

The only question I have regarding DonC3's bike possibly being a 1898 is that it is my understanding "according to catalogs" that the NEW collet seat binder was introduced for the 1899 model. DonC3's bike does have the collet seat binder. If some evidence exists to indicate this feature was early released in 1898 before appearing in the 1899 catalog as a "NEW" feature, then the possibility does exist that DonC3's bike could possibly be anywhere between 1898-1900 when they seemed to finally discontinue the spoked sprocket.

 

[Rambler]

1899 catalog, the earliest mention of seat collet binder that I can locate.

 

[Rambler]

As mentioned previously in this thread, National Cycle components shown in 1913-1916 catalogs, all appear to be the same as the components on DonC3's National.

Handlebars on DonC3's appear to be either style #6 or #7.

Handle bar neck same as shown on catalog bike.

Seat on catalog bike looks identical to that on the table next to DonC3's bike.

Pedals are rubber type same as shown on bike in catalog.

Components may be later than DonC3's bike frame but the components appear to be correct for National bicycles in general.

 

[corbettclassics]

I was thinking 1898 because I wasn't considering the "collet" type fastener on his bike. As per the 1899 catalogue you
are showing, it is not the same seat stay attachment to the seat cluster as his is all flush. The new 1899 catalogue
pic looks like mine: pic attached >

I'm not sure what 1898 was using but wasn't it a lucky 7 type with a bolt on top? His seat stays are different than the pic. Hmmm ...

 

[Rambler]

I'm not sure what 1898 was using but wasn't it a lucky 7 type with a bolt on top? His seat stays are different than the pic. Hmmm ...

Yes Corbettclassics, in 1898 National appears to still be using the seat binder bolt. Your National is actually one of the early collet seat binder frame designs 1899 or later because it still has the boss. DonC3's bike frame is later than yours 1904 or later according to the catalogs since it has no frame boss.

If the catalog illustrations (photo below) are to be believed. The frame boss you see on your bike and in the catalog artwork for 1899-1902 shows the intermediate design which I believe is a carryover from the earlier binder bolt frames. The 1903 catalog unfortunately does not include an illustration of the seat binder so I'm not confidant when the transition took place. However the 1904 catalog does shows the new artwork with boss being eliminated. The artwork showing boss eliminated remained in catalogs all the way up to the end 1916.

So if the catalog artwork is to be believed and we temporally ignore DonC3's crank sprocket, DonC3's National "frame" could have been manufactured anywhere between 1904 to 1916. The components (handle bars, stem, seat, pedals) on DonC3's National are all shown in 1913-1916 catalogs. And again, according to the catalogs, the crank on DonC3's National appeared in the catalogs anywhere between 1898-1900 and possibly later but simply not illustrated in catalogs.

DonC3's National leads to alot of confusion because it doesn't align with any particular year of National production but has parts from all different time periods. Reminds me of a Johnny Cash song "one piece at a time" as it appears that DonC3's National is built from a variety of parts.

The only thing that could really help date DonC3's National at this point is the serial number. The serial number would be the best evidence of when DonC3's National was manufactured.

 

[corbettclassics]

Really excellent information Rambler. I really appreciate your time in doing this as it's helping not just me but DonC3's questions too.

 

[oldspoke]

Hello Rambler,Corbett, and All

I have owned this Stayer for a number of years now. I have always assumed that it was a National. This excellent thread of information seems to confirm that my bike would be a National and date between the years 1899 - 1903 . Would this be true in your opinion{s} ?

Unfortunately the head badge is missing.Would this bike take the round National badge pictured in this thread ? I would like to find one for this bike. Another unfortunate circumstance is that the frame has been power coated black. Removable but difficult.

Rambler, you had mentioned perusing many catalogs recently. Did you come across a catalog where a stayer had been offered ?

Rambler & C.Classics = Many thanks for sharing the information here !

Glenn

 

[Rambler]

Glenn,

I'm curious, does your Stayer have the traditional spiral adjusting washers or possibly even the remnants of the adjusting teeth showing on the frame? (image below) Because that would confirm for sure it's a National. In the photo looks to have a banjo chain tensioner but that may have been added later.

From what I can see it does have the bottom bracket clamp bolts typical of National and frame does in every way look like a National 1899 - 1903. Even the name plate holes are in the correct position. To confirm, measure the distance between the two holes. Should be 1-1/2" center to center. If that's the distance than yes it would take the typical round National name plate which to my knowledge remained pretty much the same for all years of production.

I don't recall seeing a Stayer offered in the catalogs but I will look again and read carefully through the catalogs just to be sure if this bike may be in there. It is possible that National built it special for one of their racers to ride. On the last few pages of many catalogs there is mention of National winning races, who won them, what records were set, and who was riding what type of National bicycle. I'll see if the description of any of these rider's machines matches your bike. Do you know the frame size or could you measure the distance between center of crank to top tube? That would help because the frame size is mentioned in each racer description so it will narrow the search.

Monday's are very busy for me so probably won't have time to look through the catalogs until Tuesday. That should give you time to either post or PM me the frame size for reference.

Tyson

 

[corbettclassics]

I have several pictures of racers who raced on a National but none on a Stayer. I'm always researching!

 

[oldspoke]

Hello Rambler

Thanks for your response.

Enclosed are a few more photos = BB, Headset,Stem,crank .

One side of rear hub does have the adjusting washer {photo did not come out}

I did not see small adjusting teeth on the drop out yet these may be covered in paint.
Serial # on bb 27683. Yes - badge holes seem to measure aprox 1 3/8 - 1 1/2 inch.
Frame measures 22" center to center or 23" ctr to top of collet binder.

I'm sure that this Stayer is a National .