Info needed - is this a Diamant Pista?

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juvela

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
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yes, headset has appearance of being reworked at some point

locknut for example appears decades later than frameset

Brampton offered three or four stock locknut patterns at this time

the locknut currently being worn is not one of them

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btw -

Brampton had an odd manner of catalogueing their head parts

have one of their trade publications from ca. 1940

head parts are listed by category/function rather than as sets

there is a page for locknuts

there is page for washers and spacers

there is a page for fork crown races

there is a page for adjustable races

and there is page for head races

no sets are shown!

it is as if they are saying "Please feel free to mix and match boys and girls!"


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Last edited:

indycycling

Finally riding a big boys bike
Being very interested in these old Schwinn frames, and the later models that also have the bands. I cant remember any Ive seen that had the bands facing any way other than white to white. Or any with bands on the fork. Notice the blue version in your last group of pics. White to White.
Just musing, and adding to the anomalies section.
Crazy it would have a British BB shell and Headset. That type of headset is most often seen with British style clip stem steerers, which also makes everything a bit more complicated.
I have two British bikes with this style headset. One is an earlier floating race cup Brown and Wilkes, and one is a captured Brompton race cup like this one. Both came with a clip stem, but a swedge bolt stem works also.

There is no picture of it, but does your fork steerer tube have a "T" cut into the top threads area?
The way your headset bottom crown race sits up high, you can see that at one time there was a race seated on the crown head as is usual. Is everything just mocked up or is that the way it was? Even the four cup headsets on the British bikes have the lower race seated on the crown. Looks like something doesn't fit.
The bike came totally apart. The bottom crown race needs to be pressed back where it belongs. This was a quick test fit reassembly
 

Schwinny

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Slept on it awhile. the frame has become a bug for me. A challenge really. Mainly because for the last year Ive been pouring over the VCC Library finding the history of the two British Club Bikes Ive been restoring. Pulling threads, I've read histories and seen videos and hundreds of bikes. I've been browbeat by several VCC Marque enthusiasts as "that yank with one of our old boys" to get it right if I was doing it at all. These are many times all old guys that cant even ride anymore. Some live amongst their extensive collection of old European bikes.

First, I imagine it very strange that any American bike builder would be using a British BB shell or Head tube at any time. There really is no reason to, specialty shop our not. There is no advantage to the BB Shell. On the finished bike, no-one would know the difference in any way other than to be told. Same goes for the head tube. The headset being unique is one thing, but there is no racing advantage I can see. If you don't want cages around the bearings, simply dont use cages. Add 2 balls and reassemble without cages, Ive done it, it works fine.

Second, if it was in-fact made here in the US, it would have to be before 1938-9' or after 1945. The war was going on in Europe and ships were being sunk. There were no cargo planes. Anything going to and fro was not bicycle parts. In those days, there were very few imported anything, except high end luxury items, used as status. I cant see standard Brompton shells as status.

Third, the direction and placement of the decals actually means something, it was not haphazard or put on at the whimsey of personal choice. Unless of course the owner put them ALL on. If the old guy said his wife put them on, I'll bet she put all of them on.

Fourth, to be serious about where it was made, you just have to have the frame metal tested. 531 and its early and later derivatives are High Manganese types. American bikes were using types of chrome Moly. These are two different directions to get similar results. Reynolds stopped 531 bicycle tube production in 1939 and didn't continue until after the war.

There were actually companies in England like Phillips (Phillips was a parts only company until after the war) that sold entire bike frame kits in a box for someone to fully make their own bikes. This would have been pre and post war only for shipment to the US though. The brazing material was thin brass ribbon, laid in recess' in the tube or lugs, assembled with a flux paste for ease of assembly before heating. Very little if any brass oozed outside the lugs. From what few Ive seen of American lugged bike assembly, the tubes seem to have been fluxed and slid together with the brazing material naturally pulled into the joint with heat from the outside of the joint. Same way copper plumbing is assembled. This leaves a spot or more of brazing material outside the lug on the tubes to be filed down and smoothed out.

My vote is that it is a European frame, later done up with American bits. In 2022 we are too far away from its actual production date for anyone, including a Wastyn family member that didn't actually do the deed, to give provenance unless they have hard copy ephemera.

You may ask the old owner guy if his wife knew of Eileen Sheridan. She would have been a hero to women bicyclists in those days. She set time trials racing records throughout England and did it on a Mercian that was painted and decaled as a Hercules. Hercules sponsored her but she was trained and tested on her own Mercian.

Of course, I may be Bat poop...
 
Last edited:

indycycling

Finally riding a big boys bike
Being very interested in these old Schwinn frames, and the later models that also have the bands. I cant remember any Ive seen that had the bands facing any way other than white to white. Or any with bands on the fork. Notice the blue version in your last group of pics. White to White.
Just musing, and adding to the anomalies section.
Crazy it would have a British BB shell and Headset. And not just headset, Head. That type of headset is most often seen with British style clip stem steerers, which also makes everything a bit more complicated.
I have two British bikes with this style headset. One is an earlier floating race cup Brown and Wilkes, and one is a captured Brompton race cup like this one. Both came with a clip stem, but a swedge bolt stem works also.

There is no picture of it, but does your fork steerer tube have a "T" cut into the top threads area?
The way your headset bottom crown race sits up high, you can see that at one time there was a race seated on the crown head as is usual. Is everything just mocked up or is that the way it was? Even the four cup headsets on the British bikes have the lower race seated on the crown. Looks like something doesn't fit.
Slept on it awhile. the frame has become a bug for me. A challenge really. Mainly because for the last year Ive been pouring over the VCC Library finding the history of the two British Club Bikes Ive been restoring. Pulling threads, I've read histories and seen videos and hundreds of bikes. I've been browbeat by several VCC Marque enthusiasts as "that yank with one of our old boys" to get it right if I was doing it at all. These are many times all old guys that cant even ride anymore. Some live amongst their extensive collection of old European bikes.

First, I imagine it very strange that any American bike builder would be using a British BB shell or Head tube at any time. There really is no reason to, specialty shop our not. There is no advantage to the BB Shell. On the finished bike, no-one would know the difference in any way other than to be told. Same goes for the head tube. The headset being unique is one thing, but there is no racing advantage I can see. If you don't want cages around the bearings, simply dont use cages. Add 2 balls and reassemble without cages, Ive done it, it works fine.

Second, if it was in-fact made here in the US, it would have to be before 1938-9' or after 1945. The war was going on in Europe and ships were being sunk. There were no cargo planes. Anything going to and fro was not bicycle parts. In those days, there were very few imported anything, except high end luxury items, used as status. I cant see standard Brompton shells as status.

Third, the direction and placement of the decals actually means something, it was not haphazard or put on at the whimsey of personal choice. Unless of course the owner put them ALL on. If the old guy said his wife put them on, I'll bet she put all of them on.

Fourth, to be serious about where it was made, you just have to have the frame metal tested. 531 and its early and later derivatives are High Manganese types. American bikes were using types of chrome Moly. These are two different directions to get similar results. Reynolds stopped 531 bicycle tube production in 1939 and didn't continue until after the war.

There were actually companies in England like Phillips (Phillips was a parts only company until after the war) that sold entire bike frame kits in a box for someone to fully make their own bikes. This would have been pre and post war only for shipment to the US though. The brazing material was thin brass ribbon, laid in recess' in the tube or lugs, assembled with a flux paste for ease of assembly before heating. Very little if any brass oozed outside the lugs. From what few Ive seen of American lugged bike assembly, the tubes seem to have been fluxed and slid together with the brazing material naturally pulled into the joint with heat from the outside of the joint. Same way copper plumbing is assembled. This leaves a spot or more of brazing material outside the lug on the tubes to be filed down and smoothed out.

My vote is that it is a European frame, later done up with American bits. In 2022 we are too far away from its actual production date for anyone, including a Wastyn family member that didn't actually do the deed, to give provenance unless they have hard copy ephemera.

You may ask the old owner guy if his wife knew of Eileen Sheridan. She would have been a hero to women bicyclists in those days. She set time trials racing records throughout England and did it on a Mercian that was painted and decaled as a Hercules. Hercules sponsored her but she was trained and tested on her own Mercian.

Of course, I may be Bat poop...
Thanks for your reply and insights

After 4th generation builder/owner Scott Wastyn reviewed the details and numerous photos I sent him and indicated the frame was one of theirs, I'm going with that.

Hard to tell over the decades about the associated parts that are now on the bike. I love this bike for what it appears to be, what it may be, and the little history I know from Bill Leahy including his wife, a certified Schwinn mechanic and track racer, Elizabeth. And the fact it's a 49cm seat tube, my size, wow!

I'd love to better understand the age of this frame - ballpark now 30's to pre '58

Thanks!
 

Schwinny

Wore out three sets of tires already!
Thanks for your reply and insights

After 4th generation builder/owner Scott Wastyn reviewed the details and numerous photos I sent him and indicated the frame was one of theirs, I'm going with that.

Hard to tell over the decades about the associated parts that are now on the bike. I love this bike for what it appears to be, what it may be, and the little history I know from Bill Leahy including his wife, a certified Schwinn mechanic and track racer, Elizabeth. And the fact it's a 49cm seat tube, my size, wow!

I'd love to better understand the age of this frame - ballpark now 30's to pre '58

Thanks!
Great. Then I'm sure he will be able to find it in the Wastyn records and provide further insights to it's provenance.
I look forward to reading about it.
Very interesting stuff.
 

indycycling

Finally riding a big boys bike
Great. Then I'm sure he will be able to find it in the Wastyn records and provide further insights to it's provenance.
I look forward to reading about it.
Very interesting stuff.
I have no expectation that Scott will be pouring through any records. I am hoping he will respond and give me his opinion on the rough age.

Yes, very interesting stuff for sure
 

corbettclassics

I live for the CABE
Slept on it awhile. the frame has become a bug for me. A challenge really. Mainly because for the last year Ive been pouring over the VCC Library finding the history of the two British Club Bikes Ive been restoring. Pulling threads, I've read histories and seen videos and hundreds of bikes. I've been browbeat by several VCC Marque enthusiasts as "that yank with one of our old boys" to get it right if I was doing it at all. These are many times all old guys that cant even ride anymore. Some live amongst their extensive collection of old European bikes.

First, I imagine it very strange that any American bike builder would be using a British BB shell or Head tube at any time. There really is no reason to, specialty shop our not. There is no advantage to the BB Shell. On the finished bike, no-one would know the difference in any way other than to be told. Same goes for the head tube. The headset being unique is one thing, but there is no racing advantage I can see. If you don't want cages around the bearings, simply dont use cages. Add 2 balls and reassemble without cages, Ive done it, it works fine.

Second, if it was in-fact made here in the US, it would have to be before 1938-9' or after 1945. The war was going on in Europe and ships were being sunk. There were no cargo planes. Anything going to and fro was not bicycle parts. In those days, there were very few imported anything, except high end luxury items, used as status. I cant see standard Brompton shells as status.

Third, the direction and placement of the decals actually means something, it was not haphazard or put on at the whimsey of personal choice. Unless of course the owner put them ALL on. If the old guy said his wife put them on, I'll bet she put all of them on.

Fourth, to be serious about where it was made, you just have to have the frame metal tested. 531 and its early and later derivatives are High Manganese types. American bikes were using types of chrome Moly. These are two different directions to get similar results. Reynolds stopped 531 bicycle tube production in 1939 and didn't continue until after the war.

There were actually companies in England like Phillips (Phillips was a parts only company until after the war) that sold entire bike frame kits in a box for someone to fully make their own bikes. This would have been pre and post war only for shipment to the US though. The brazing material was thin brass ribbon, laid in recess' in the tube or lugs, assembled with a flux paste for ease of assembly before heating. Very little if any brass oozed outside the lugs. From what few Ive seen of American lugged bike assembly, the tubes seem to have been fluxed and slid together with the brazing material naturally pulled into the joint with heat from the outside of the joint. Same way copper plumbing is assembled. This leaves a spot or more of brazing material outside the lug on the tubes to be filed down and smoothed out.

My vote is that it is a European frame, later done up with American bits. In 2022 we are too far away from its actual production date for anyone, including a Wastyn family member that didn't actually do the deed, to give provenance unless they have hard copy ephemera.

You may ask the old owner guy if his wife knew of Eileen Sheridan. She would have been a hero to women bicyclists in those days. She set time trials racing records throughout England and did it on a Mercian that was painted and decaled as a Hercules. Hercules sponsored her but she was trained and tested on her own Mercian.

Of course, I may be Bat poop...


Here's a bottom bracket shell from one of my old track bikes from a builder in the 40's out of Southern CA ( San Diego ) using a British Made.

L1020588.JPG
 

juvela

Cruisin' on my Bluebird
Here's a bottom bracket shell from one of my old track bikes from a builder in the 40's out of Southern CA ( San Diego ) using a British Made.

View attachment 1636457

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thank you for posting this

have you been able to determine the maker and model of the shell?

is it the same pattern as that of the subject machine?

usually with Brit stock frame bits one thinks of Davis, Brampton & Haden

one thing which makes me tend to eliminate Brampton is the absence of raised markings; their stock numbers are usually cast in to the mould such that they appear raised on the castings


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Schwinny

Wore out three sets of tires already!
It would be nice to get to the bottom... Bracket of this. I have a 1950 English machine with the same wording, same curvature but in a a smaller stamping.
I would also ask what head is on it?
 
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