The "HOLY GRAIL" of Schwinn MTB frames!

[Santuri82]

The serial numbers do not lie. They are what they are, but require some digging to determine who and where they came from.

The other Parts Division frame set had a BMX type fork. The serial numbers started with "WAK". I do not know which Japanese manufacturer used that prefix on their serial numbers.

I know this is an old tread, but I own both a WAK brazed frame and lugged 1983-84 frame of these bikes. Just to share my two cents after too long researching information a time ago. What I gathered was that the WAK frames were offered to dealers to promote their soon to be build Mountain Bike frame. I tracked the frame serials of a few and following the serial order there were at least 18 made (I imagine more). Richard Schwinn consulted with Marc Muller who built their 1982 Paramountain that displayed in the Chicago Interbike show. What they concluded was that these were Waterford made bikes. Serial number of the bike followed a January 1974 Schwinn serial but with a W placed in front. He told me that they may have used a stock BB. The frames were thinly brazed and may have had some interior support. These early frames lacked some cable braze-ons, they came with a straight tubular frame that was replaced under warranty by a Tange (pseudo biplane) fork, that is how I bought my frame. Attached is a NOS 1982 Brazed frame. Regarding the B,C-3,4-nnnnn frames what I found is that they were offered from 1983 to 1984 as shown in broshures and catalogs and came with a made in Japan decal. I had assume they had been made by Panasonic as they held business with road bike production.

The most important point about these bikes is that they somewhat discredit the idea that Shwinn wasn't trying to enter the Mountain Bike as early as Specialized or Univega and the Boutique MTB builders, but that it was experimenting, trying during difficult times for the company. The geometry was different that other bikes, with longer top tubes. Anyway that is all I have.

 

[Santuri82]

I know this is an old tread, but I own both a WAK brazed frame and lugged 1983-84 frame of these bikes. Just to share my two cents after too long researching information a time ago. What I gathered was that the WAK frames were offered to dealers to promote their soon to be build Mountain Bike frame. I tracked the frame serials of a few and following the serial order there were at least 18 made (I imagine more). Richard Schwinn consulted with Marc Muller who built their 1982 Paramountain that displayed in the Chicago Interbike show. What they concluded was that these were Waterford made bikes. Serial number of the bike followed a January 1974 Schwinn serial but with a W placed in front. He told me that they may have used a stock BB. The frames were thinly brazed and may have had some interior support. These early frames lacked some cable braze-ons, they came with a straight tubular frame that was replaced under warranty by a Tange (pseudo biplane) fork, that is how I bought my frame. Attached is a NOS 1982 Brazed frame. Regarding the B,C-3,4-nnnnn frames what I found is that they were offered from 1983 to 1984 as shown in broshures and catalogs and came with a made in Japan decal. I had assume they had been made by Panasonic as they held business with road bike production.

The most important point about these bikes is that they somewhat discredit the idea that Shwinn wasn't trying to enter the Mountain Bike as early as Specialized or Univega and the Boutique MTB builders, but that it was experimenting, trying during difficult times for the company. The geometry was different that other bikes, with longer top tubes. Anyway that is all I have.

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A picture of my 83 Schwinn Mountain Bike

 

[DrRumack80]

I know this is an old tread, but I own both a WAK brazed frame and lugged 1983-84 frame of these bikes. Just to share my two cents after too long researching information a time ago. What I gathered was that the WAK frames were offered to dealers to promote their soon to be build Mountain Bike frame. I tracked the frame serials of a few and following the serial order there were at least 18 made (I imagine more). Richard Schwinn consulted with Marc Muller who built their 1982 Paramountain that displayed in the Chicago Interbike show. What they concluded was that these were Waterford made bikes. Serial number of the bike followed a January 1974 Schwinn serial but with a W placed in front. He told me that they may have used a stock BB. The frames were thinly brazed and may have had some interior support. These early frames lacked some cable braze-ons, they came with a straight tubular frame that was replaced under warranty by a Tange (pseudo biplane) fork, that is how I bought my frame. Attached is a NOS 1982 Brazed frame. Regarding the B,C-3,4-nnnnn frames what I found is that they were offered from 1983 to 1984 as shown in broshures and catalogs and came with a made in Japan decal. I had assume they had been made by Panasonic as they held business with road bike production.

The most important point about these bikes is that they somewhat discredit the idea that Shwinn wasn't trying to enter the Mountain Bike as early as Specialized or Univega and the Boutique MTB builders, but that it was experimenting, trying during difficult times for the company. The geometry was different that other bikes, with longer top tubes. Anyway that is all I have.

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Welcome to the CABE! Nice build on that '83 lugged frame. Looks like you have the wide Ukai rims and Maximizer tires.

The perception is that Schwinn missed the boat on the mountain bike movement. However, when one sees efforts like the above frames, it seems clear that the Company had their ear to the ground.

Thanks for sharing the pics of your bikes!

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

Welcome to the CABE! Nice build on that '83 lugged frame. Looks like you have the wide Ukai rims and Maximizer tires.

The perception is that Schwinn missed the boat on the mountain bike movement. However, when one sees efforts like the above frames, it seems clear that the Company had their ear to the ground.

Thanks for sharing the pics of your bikes!

That EAR, BELONGED TO A YOUNG GUY NAMED BOB LAMBROSE.

Bob was a Schwinn Sales West Sales DSM that was promoted out of the Southern California distribution center (parts inventory control) and moved to the North Bay sales area and took over from former DSM Mike Murphy. Bob was heavily into the Mountain Bike scene and called on the Schwinn dealerships of the Northern San Francisco Bay area daily. Bob communicated with Schwinn's Chicago Product Managers. He was very frustrated with the time it took to get things done. Big ships do not make quick maneuvers like a ski boat.

John

 

[Xlobsterman]

That EAR, BELONGED TO A YOUNG GUY NAMED BOB LAMBROSE.

Bob was a Schwinn Sales West Sales DSM that was promoted out of the Southern California distribution center (parts inventory control) and moved to the North Bay sales area and took over from former DSM Mike Murphy. Bob was heavily into the Mountain Bike scene and called on the Schwinn dealerships of the Northern San Francisco Bay area daily. Bob communicated with Schwinn's Chicago Product Managers. He was very frustrated with the time it took to get things done. Big ships do not make quick maneuvers like a ski boat.

John

Back in the day when I was working at the shop in the late 70's the MTB scene was really taking off. Back then, the movement was done by word of mouth, and printed media like magazines. As I sit here now in front of my computer screen, I wonder how it would have evolved if we had our current social media to promote it back in the day? Would Schwinn have done anything differently? Now we have another evolution taking place in the cycling industry! Ebikes seem to be the latest trend in cycling, with most companies jumping on board with some version of an Ebike with their own flair. SE Bikes, one of the premier BMX companies that started back in the late 70's is now releasing 2 versions of an Ebike, one is a 24" and the other is a 29".

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

Back in the day when I was working at the shop in the late 70's the MTB scene was really taking off. Back then, the movement was done by word of mouth, and printed media like magazines. As I sit here now in front of my computer screen, I wonder how it would have evolved if we had our current social media to promote it back in the day? Would Schwinn have done anything differently? Now we have another evolution taking place in the cycling industry! Ebikes seem to be the latest trend in cycling, with most companies jumping on board with some version of an Ebike with their own flair. SE Bikes, one of the premier BMX companies that started back in the late 70's is now releasing 2 versions of an Ebike, one is a 24" and the other is a 29".

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Growing old does have some advantages, at least a few. Having worked in the distributor end of both the Bicycle, and the Motorsports Industries selling to independent dealers has taugh me a few lessons.

First I do not view the current wave of eBikes as BICYCLES, they are undocumented, unlicensed, uninsured Motorized Vehicles. They are not any different that the Motorized Vehicles that came before them, like Whizzer Motor Kit converted bicycles of the late 1940's, or the factory built European MoPeds of the 1970's.

Bicycle Dealers never completely understood how to sell Whizzers or MoPeds to the potential market base. These both were great products, but they never were promoted and never hit the sales numbers needed to make them lasting long term product segments. In the end they both failed to have lasting traction in the industry. The Bicycle Dealers (that were not previously Lawn Mower Shops) never could get past having the smell of gasoline in their stores. They never understood the need to be able to diagnose lighting and ignition electronics in their service departments. In the end, the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers buried the European MoPed brands by introducing cheap "real motorcycles" sold at Motorcycle Dealers with full service parts and service to back them up.

Motorcycle Dealers for the most part have no interest in selling eBikes. They likely make more profit in just their inflated destination and DMV DOC registration fees on a motorcycle, ATV, UTV, or Jet Ski than they would be spending time selling an eBike. Several different companies have tried multiple times to retail their eBikes through Motorsports Dealers and it eventually stalls out.

The cost of a eBike is "Too High" for average size Bicycle Dealers to inventory without financial flooring assistance. Commercial flooring companies do not want to floor an "untitled" vehicle they can't track. Most Bicycle Dealers are not already set up with an F&I department to write sales contracts and sell financing and insurance. On the other side, the retail pricing on eBikes is "Too Low" for a Motorsport Dealer to handle. It is a problem for both types of dealer groups.

The Motorsports Industry has already experienced major U.S. Government CPSC Regulation. They had to recall and crush every three wheel All Terrain Cycle (ATC) they sold and faced major Government safety regulations for selling all-terrain (ATV) four-wheel vehicles to young riders. They had to fully fund safe rider classes for new riders to learn how to operate their vehicles safely. It is my view that the eBike industry is now on a collision course over safe operation. The Government is slow to react, but history has shown the current wild wild west atmosphere will be reined in as soon as a few more riders and pedestrians are injured or killed walking on a sidewalk or trail. What is going to happen to eBike sales when the Government requires that they be insured for liability, have license registration, and licensed operators?
Attach files
I ask the question, IF YOU WERE A COMPANY CEO, or a local BICYCLE/MOTORSPORTS DEALER WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO ENTER THIS EMERGING MARKET?
John

 

[Xlobsterman]

Growing old does have some advantages, at least a few. Having worked in the distributor end of both the Bicycle, and the Motorsports Industries selling to independent dealers has taugh me a few lessons.

First I do not view the current wave of eBikes as BICYCLES, they are undocumented, unlicensed, uninsured Motorized Vehicles. They are not any different that the Motorized Vehicles that came before them, like Whizzer Motor Kit converted bicycles of the late 1940's, or the factory built European MoPeds of the 1970's.

Bicycle Dealers never completely understood how to sell Whizzers or MoPeds to the potential market base. These both were great products, but they never were promoted and never hit the sales numbers needed to make them lasting long term product segments. In the end they both failed to have lasting traction in the industry. The Bicycle Dealers (that were not previously Lawn Mower Shops) never could get past having the smell of gasoline in their stores. They never understood the need to be able to diagnose lighting and ignition electronics in their service departments. In the end, the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers buried the European MoPed brands by introducing cheap "real motorcycles" sold at Motorcycle Dealers with full service parts and service to back them up.

Motorcycle Dealers for the most part have no interest in selling eBikes. They likely make more profit in just their inflated destination and DMV DOC registration fees on a motorcycle, ATV, UTV, or Jet Ski than they would be spending time selling an eBike. Several different companies have tried multiple times to retail their eBikes through Motorsports Dealers and it eventually stalls out.

The cost of a eBike is "Too High" for average size Bicycle Dealers to inventory without financial flooring assistance. Commercial flooring companies do not want to floor an "untitled" vehicle they can't track. Most Bicycle Dealers are not already set up with an F&I department to write sales contracts and sell financing and insurance. On the other side, the retail pricing on eBikes is "Too Low" for a Motorsport Dealer to handle. It is a problem for both types of dealer groups.

The Motorsports Industry has already experienced major U.S. Government CPSC Regulation. They had to recall and crush every three wheel All Terrain Cycle (ATC) they sold and faced major Government safety regulations for selling all-terrain (ATV) four-wheel vehicles to young riders. They had to fully fund safe rider classes for new riders to learn how to operate their vehicles safely. It is my view that the eBike industry is now on a collision course over safe operation. The Government is slow to react, but history has shown the current wild wild west atmosphere will be reined in as soon as a few more riders and pedestrians are injured or killed walking on a sidewalk or trail. What is going to happen to eBike sales when the Government requires that they be insured for liability, have license registration, and licensed operators?
Attach files
I ask the question, IF YOU WERE A COMPANY CEO, or a local BICYCLE/MOTORSPORTS DEALER WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO ENTER THIS EMERGING MARKET?
John

We also sold Peugeot mopeds when I worked at the shop. And a Peugeot moped was my first real mode of transportation when I finally got my learners permit, since that was a requirement for driving one. And being the gearhead that I was while working at the shop, I modified the moped to go faster than the legal 30 mph they were restricted to! With the mods I did to it, I got it to peg the max 50 mph on the speedometer, so I don't know how fast I was really going? All I knew is I passed all the other mopeds on the road with a great BIG smile as I blasted by them......LOL

Most of the current Ebikes, are not really practical to just ride as a bike, since most of them are pretty heavy. They are becoming real popular with the older crowd, because of the pedal assist feature on most of the bikes. You can still peddal it, and get a good workout without putting lots of strain on older muscles and joints. Now that I have reached 65, and have started having issues with my knees, I am seriously thinking about getting one! The brand I was looking at is Aventon, but the $2000 price tag has kept me from getting one at the moment. But now that I saw the one SE is getting ready to release, my eyes are moving in that direction because I love the looks and ride of the 27.5 PK Ripper that I have!

 

[Schwinn Sales West]

We also sold Peugeot mopeds when I worked at the shop. And a Peugeot moped was my first real mode of transportation when I finally got my learners permit, since that was a requirement for driving one. And being the gearhead that I was while working at the shop, I modified the moped to go faster than the legal 35 mph they were restricted to! With the mods I did to it, I got it to peg the max 50 mph on the speedometer, so I don't know how fast I was really going? All I knew is I passed all the other mopeds on the road with a great BIG smile as I blasted by them......LOL

Most of the current Ebikes, are not really practical to just ride as a bike, since most of them are pretty heavy. They are becoming real popular with the older crowd, because of the pedal assist feature on most of the bikes. You can still peddal it, and get a good workout without putting lots of strain on older muscles and joints. Now that I have reached 65, and have started having issues with my knees, I am seriously thinking about getting one! The brand I was looking at is Aventon, but the $2000 price tag has kept me from getting one at the moment. But now that I saw the one SE is getting ready to release, my eyes are moving in that direction because I love the looks and ride of the 27.5 PK Ripper that I have!

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California and Arizona (and other states) had different Moped maximum speed restriction laws. To be California compliant it was a maximum of 30 MPH, and in Arizona was only 25 MPH. The problem with the Peugeot 103 was they had a very crude voltage regulation design. They restricted the voltage produced by the resistance of the incandescent head light. When an aggressive rider rode one "down a hill" and over sped the engine (actually the magneto) the voltage would spike and blow out the head light seal beam bulb. Without the head light bulb connected to complete the ignition circuit "they would not run". I took lots of heat in 1977-78 as a Peugeot Sales Representative from dealers that had customer sold units in for repairs and they could not fix them because the special G.E. bulb was only available from Cycles Peugeot, and they were NOT IN STOCK.

The Japanese motorcycle manufacturers had service parts and service departments to keep their products "running after the sale".

John

 

[Xlobsterman]

California and Arizona (and other states) had different Moped maximum speed restriction laws. To be California compliant it was a maximum of 30 MPH, and in Arizona was only 25 MPH. The problem with the Peugeot 103 was they had a very crude voltage regulation design. They restricted the voltage produced by the resistance of the incandescent head light. When an aggressive rider rode one "down a hill" and over sped the engine (actually the magneto) the voltage would spike and blow out the head light seal beam bulb. Without the head light bulb connected to complete the ignition circuit "they would not run". I took lots of heat in 1977-78 as a Peugeot Sales Representative from dealers that had customer sold units in for repairs and they could not fix them because the special G.E. bulb was only available from Cycles Peugeot, and they were NOT IN STOCK.

The Japanese motorcycle manufacturers had service parts and service departments to keep their products "running after the sale".

John

I don’t remember blowing out a headlight. But one of the issues I remember with the electrical system was if the brake light was burned out the bike would stall when the brake lever was used.

 

[Xlobsterman]

BTW, if anyone is curious about these frames I found, I ended up selling both of them. The first frame was hanging in my man cave, and the other one I had thought about building up if I could have found all new period correct parts. But that would have taken many years to source all those specific parts, so that plan never materialized. Now the frames are in the hands of others who will build and ride them.